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A Master Class in Hypnotic
Storytelling.
Part 1
Two Travellers.Edited transcript.
Robin Manuell and %gor &edochows'i.
Edited by Caleb (illia!s and Margaret Manuell
These interviews were originally recorded for Igor Ledochowski's “Masters
of Hypnosis” Series. o! "ay not copy or distri#!te. If yo! wish to share
the series yo! can sign !p for o!r affiliate progra" and earn co""issions on
every sale.
$ %o#in Man!ell ideasin"otion.org.!k &ll %ights %eserved
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Biographies
Robin Manuell has #een a storyteller since his teenage years.
ith a #ackgro!nd in theatre and psychology he started practising
(L) and Hypnosis in *++,. His advent!res have taken hi" all
aro!nd the world in search of teachers and inspiration for stories
that change "inds.
%gor &edochows'i is a Master Hypnosis and (L) Trainer and the
#est selling a!thor of “The )ower of -onversational Hypnosis”
and “The eep Trance Training Man!al” In ten years he has
single handedly transfor"ed the teaching of hypnosis on line and
in the process he has trained with and interviewed "ost of the
greatest "inds in the field.
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& Master -lass in Hypnotic Storytelling
Listen to the whole series.
The )ower of -onversational Hypnosis.
iscover the Science of )ers!asion
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A Master Class in Hypnotic Storytelling
Contents/iographies.
*. & Life in Storytelling.
a0 S!""ary
#0 Edited Transcript
c0 Stacked %ealities
1. Two Travellers.
a0 Edited Transcript
2. Storytelling in )erfor"ance.
a0 S!""ary
#0 Edited Transcript
3. 4irst Steps in Storytelling.
a0 Edited Transcript.
#0 S!""ary
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Edited Transcript
Igor5
elco"e to Streethypnosis.co". I'" here with Master Hypnotist
%o#in Man!ell fro" Hypnoticstorytelling.co". %o#in is not 6!st
a "asterf!l storyteller and one of the #est hypnotists I've had the
pleas!re of working with. He has a !ni7!e progra" that's for
hypnotists8 teaching the" how to tell stories that really infl!ence
and pers!ade and "ove and change people. It's a really powerf!l
progra" and we're very fort!nate today #eca!se %o#in is going
to #e showing !s and teaching !s the core essence of what his
progra" is a#o!t so stay t!ned #eca!se yo!'re a#o!t to go on an
e9citing storytelling ride. %o#in welco"e a#oard.
%o#in5
Thank yo! its good to #e #ack on #oard.
Igor5
&nd its great to have yo!. &s I say I always love talking to yo!
cos the st!ff .. first of all yo! never know where yo!'re going to
go and second of all we know where ever it is its going to #e a
real pleas!re so I think we're in for a real treat today.
%o#in5
:!ys if yo!'ve ever had the pleas!re to "eet Igor in person yo!'ll
know one of the things he is e9cellent at is #eing a#le to stand
there and give yo! 6!st oceans and oceans of appreciation. He'll
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#e right on the "ark as well its a great talent to have .. so thanks
for pointing that in "y direction so "!ch.
Igor5
&nd thank yo! for pointing that o!t. This is now the "!t!al
appreciation society co"ing to a close.
So let's start with the act!al progra". I know yo! have a really
powerf!l storytelling progra" for hypnotists where yo! coach
the" either one on one or in gro!ps to show the" 6!st how good
they are at stories.
I tho!ght if yo! co!ld 6!st la!nch !s in with a general
#ackgro!nd into the idea of the power of stories. Is everyone
capa#le or do yo! have to #e #orn to #e a storyteller; I "ean
what's yo!r opinion a#o!t how people co"e to #e storytellers
the"selves;
I think the first place that yo! have to learn to start with this is to
learn to listen8 to really love and get fascinated with stories. It's
worth reflecting for a "o"ent on 6!st how powerf!l stories are.
Like we "entioned in the first interview. e were talking a#o!t
<es!s of (a=areth8 :!ata"a /!ddha 8 the prophet Moha""ed.
o! only have to reflect on their stories to realise how powerf!lly
they can change the world.
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It doesn't act!ally "atter whether we know those stories are tr!e
or not. They still have the powerf!l effect that they've had. I've
always tho!ght that it's fascinating that so "!ch anger and strifeare ca!sed in the world over a few s7!are "eters of land in the
centre of <er!sale". & city whose na"e #y the way "eans
peace...
(ow this piece of knowledge is vital to appreciate ...
To #eco"e a storyteller the first and "ost i"portant thing yo!
have to #egin8 is to #eco"e a lover of stories. id I ever tell yo!
a#o!t >le Larson;
Igor5
(o not yet.
%o#in5
He was fro" en"ark originally and he st!died with -hogya"
Tr!ngpa the Ti#etan /!ddhist8 in the States. He st!died with
Erhart Se"inar Training and worked there for a while and this
g!y was like a rock. I swear when yo! shook hands with hi" yo!
co!ld 6!st feel this real solidity this real presence. hen he was
angry8 yo! know he'd stand !p in front of an a!dience.
I saw hi" get really angry at this g!y once and it was as tho!gh
yo! co!ld feel this wave of anger 6!st r!shing over the crowd and
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as soon as it had "oved8 it was gone and over again8 and he
co!ld do the sa"e with love.
He had so"ething a#o!t hi" that 6!st radiated presence and >le
Larson's idea a#o!t life. He wo!ld never worry a#o!t c!sto"er
service or getting on with people #eca!se if he went to a
resta!rant he wo!ld #e the #est c!sto"er they have ever had. &nd
the sa"e way8 if yo! want to #eco"e a great storyteller I think
the first thing that yo! have to do is to start to #eco"e the #esta!dience ever.
hen yo! #egin to really listen and to pay attention to the people
in yo!r life yo!'ll realise I think that everyone is e9tra?ordinary.
Everyone has a story to tell. It's 6!st part of #eing h!"an.
So"e stories8 so"e of those stories resonate with !s #eca!se they
are fa"iliar8 #eca!se they descri#e the ordinariness of o!r lives in
a special way or #eca!se they capt!re the essence o!r own
str!ggle. There are other stories that delight !s #eca!se they
#reathe of "ystery and "agic.
I so"eti"es tell "y st!dents a story a#o!t two travellers who
happen to "eet on the sa"e track.
This happened8 well let's say it happened8 yo! know two or three
h!ndred years ago8 #efore ind!strialisation. So"ewhere in central
E!rope. I like it there #eca!se there are vast tracts of "o!ntain
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and forest. It's a wild place even now and #ack then it was a place
of principalities and s"all kingdo"s protected #y those nat!ral
#arriers.
These two travellers "eet on the road8 they're heading in the
sa"e general direction so they decide to travel together for a
while and as they walk they talk and their voices r!n along the
road ahead of the"8 rising and falling in la!ghter and in
arg!"ent.
>ne of these g!ys is a Merchant. He #!ys goods and he sells
the"8 he knows what people need and he knows the val!e of
things.
The other g!y is a h!nter. He knows the tracks of the deer8 and
the her#s that are good for the #ody and the so!l.
They realise that they have "!ch to learn fro" each other
#eca!se what they #oth have in co""on is that they are
storytellers and collectors of stories.
So they set off and that's all they do. They walk along together
telling each other stories and asking 7!estions like5 “How high
are the stars in the sky;” or “How did the world co"e into #eing
and when will it end;”8 “hat is the nat!re of love and of the
so!l;”8 “hat's the tr!e path to happiness for "an and wo"an
kind;”
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e all "eet people on o!r own personal 6o!rney of who" we
think8 “&h8 fellow traveller@” & few years ago I was at a <ohn
:rinder se"inar and there was this g!y8 he was asking good7!estions and "aking co""ents. I saw hi" across the roo" and
I think pro#a#ly for a "o"ent I tho!ght8 he's the only g!y awake
in the roo". He ca"e !p to "e a #it later in the training and
introd!ced hi"self he said8 “Hi8 "y na"e's Igor.”
hen yo! listened to "e in the earlier interview that we did Iwas talking a#o!t Sharon who I !sed to work in the office with
and how we'd cover for each other while I prod!ced "y
Shakespeare play and she rang !p record prod!cers and there's
an i"portant story a#o!t Sharon that I neglected to tell yo!8 #y
the way8 and it was one of those kind of "eetings.
These two travellers8 #eca!se they shared this co""on
fascination with stories and with other people8 they loved to
pass the ti"e as they walked in conversation sharing their
advent!res and event!ally they co"e to a town that's on the shore
of a great lake and at the centre of the lake A a long8 long way
away ... they can 6!st see it in the distance A is an islandB and on
that island there's a castle8 and the castle see"s to rise !p o!t of
the island and go !p8 !p8 even into the clo!ds ? right to the s!n
itself.
They find an Inn in the town and they sit down in the foreco!rt
of this inn and they look o!t across the lake and they see the
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castle on the island there in the distance. They 6!st sit and they
#egin to listen to the conversations and the e9changes that are
happening aro!nd the" #eca!se they #oth know that yo! knowthe #est way to #egin to get in to!ch with the vi#rancy and the
power of stories is 6!st act!ally to go into a p!#lic place and
listen. Soon eno!gh yo!'ll #egin to hear little ge"s little drops of
wisdo" and yo!'ll see e9changes #etween people that give yo!
an insight into a #roader pict!re8 so"ething else that's going on.
I don't know8 have yo! ever played that ga"e Igor; here
yo!'re o!t with friends or 6!st a friend .. yo! look at people in the
roo" and yo! do "ake #elieve psychic;
Igor5
>h god8 yeah@ that's a great ga"e I think it's a very powerf!lga"e to get yo! to read people. o! 6!st "ake !p and say8 this is
this person's life and this is what they are doing. So"eti"es yo!
have f!n and go ridic!lo!s #!t other ti"es yo! try and see how
they're #ehaving and doing st!ff8 6!st what kind of person they
wo!ld pro#a#ly #e like.
%o#in5
eah that's right and it's a wonderf!l ga"e to play when yo!
know that yo! don't have to get it right. o!'re not act!ally going
to find o!t or check ... So"eti"es yo! can. It can #e the
interesting ga"#it to a whole other story8 yo! know; -os yo! can
act!ally go over and talk to the".
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The f!n of the ga"e is act!ally that yo!r i"agination gets cra=y
and yo! can co"e !p with all kinds of things. Have yo! got
e9a"ples of where yo!'ve !sed that story o!t and a#o!t;
Igor5
S!re I "ean the #iggest f!n is !s!ally when ? I travel a lot so yo!
can sit in airports and #!ses and it gets kind of d!ll. &fter a while
yo! don't want to read #ooks any "ore or listen to st!ff. o! 6!st
want to have a connection with people again. I find this is a lotof f!n #eca!se yo!'re 6!st playing the ga"e and yo! see
so"eone. Especially if yo! see so"e #i=arre characters in So!th
&"erica. )art of yo! 6!st wants to "ake !p a story a#o!t the"8
partly 6!st to a"!se yo!rself and the other part is 6!st to get a
connection to people again.
I re"e"#er one point act!ally start a conversation with people
6!st #eca!se yo! get so carried away #y the story. It's like8 I want
to tell so"eone 6!st #eca!se I like this story so yo! end !p
t!rning to the person ne9t to yo! at the #ar or where ever it is and
saying8 “Hey8 see that g!y over there I #et he's so and so8 ” o!'d
#e s!rprised how 7!ickly "ost people pick !p on the ga"e and
start adding their own #its to it as well so it starts snow#alling. It
goes into its own thing and that's a lot of f!n.
%o#in5
eah I re"e"#er I told yo! a story the other day a#o!t the
wo"an who lost her grand"a.
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Cla!ghter0
I'" not going to tell it yo! now #!t that's the kind of story yo!
6!st want to tell it to people to see their reaction.
Igor5
o! 6!st can't help it8 can yo!;
%o#in5
So these g!ys are sitting there in the Inn8 in the foreco!rt of the
Inn8 #y the side of the lake8 looking o!t over the lake towards the
castle on the island in the distance8 where they can see it
reaching thro!gh the clo!ds to the s!n itself.
They ask the landlord as he co"es over and hands the" drinks 8
“hat is that place;”
The p!#lican says8 “ell8 the castle is the ho"e of the great
king. It's a place of great riches and great learning and it's said
that once yo!'ve stood in the gardens of the castle and once
yo!'ve walked aro!nd its li#raries then yo!'ll have no reason ever
to leave.
)eople co"e fro" all over the world #!t few are ever allowed
in.”
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ell8 the Merchant loves this. ow@ (ow this is s!rely the place
we have #een looking for. I"agine all of that knowledge8 all of
that wisdo" collected in one place. <!st think of the #ooks there"!st #e there. <!st think of the stories@ He thinks well8 yo!
know of anyone8 of anyone in the world why sho!ldn't we
deserve ad"ittance to that place; e can contin!e o!r worthy
disp!tations and disco!rses with the greatest "inds in the world.
The H!nter8 he looks o!t over the lake and he says8 “It wo!ld do"y heart glad to rest in s!ch a place if tr!th #e told8 even 6!st to
know that s!ch a place e9isted.”
The p!#lican t!rns to hi" again and he says. “o! know the only
way to the castle anyway is on the other side of the lake. There's
a town there and a har#o!r and there is one ferry8 6!st one ferrythat carries people across to the island.
>!r two travellers8 as they sit there and fill the"selves !p with
good food8 as they go to sleep8 they know that they have already
decided what their !lti"ate destination is and they resolve the
ne9t day to contin!e on to the town on the far side of the lake sothey can catch the ferry to the island and gain ad"ittance to the
castle.
So they follow the path the ne9t "orning down to the lake and
here they stand #y the lake and the Merchant says8 “Look to the
right8 the road is clear8 the land is c!ltivated and there are towns
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and villages where I "ay rest8 and where I "ay do #!siness along
the way. This is a road worn s"ooth #y the feet of travellers and
we "ay #enefit fro" their la#o!r and their wisdo" on o!r 6o!rney.”
The H!nter looks to the left. “ell8 the trail this way is not so
clear. So"eti"es it see"s there is no path at all. /!t look at the
forests that line the shore@ Look to the hills and the caves. oes
yo!r heart not yearn to e9plore those hidden places; To #e thefirst eyes to ga=e on these sites; hat "ight we discover on o!r
6o!rney;”
“ell the wilds that so attract yo! frighten "e8 and the co"forts
that I crave #ore yo!. I think that we "!st choose different
paths.”
So the H!nter decided to take the left hand path and the
Merchant takes the right. /!t #efore they part they say to each
other8 “Let !s re"e"#er. If we contin!e in the sa"e direction
then it's inevita#le o!r paths will cross again. (o "atter how long
the 6o!rney takes we will see each other on the other side of thelake.” &nd there they "ake a pro"ise8 they shake hands8 and
they go on their way.
)hew... I think Igor8 stories are powerf!l for two f!nda"ental
reasons. hether they are the kind of stories that we relate to
#eca!se they resonate with !s personally8 or they capt!re so"e
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essence of o!r own str!ggle or the ordinariness of o!r own lives8
or whether they do so #eca!se they evoke so"e kind of "agic or
"ystery.
The thing is that stories are the f!nda"ental way in which we
organise o!r "e"ories and the internal narrative that we call “I”8
that we call the self. If yo!'re going to e9press to "e a series of
events that happened in the past or anything that's going to
happen in the f!t!re then yo!'re going to have to tell "e a story.
It re"inds "e of when I was at this trainers training and we were
split !p into gro!ps with the task of co"ing !p with 6!st five
stories that we co!ld weave together and the g!y I was working
with t!rned to "e and he said “:od yo! know what it's like when
so"eone asks yo! to "ake so"ething !p and then yo! 6!st get sost!ck and yo! can't think of anything;”
&nd I t!rned to hi" and I said8 “:reat that's fantastic8 and what's
yo!r second story;
Cla!ghter0
#eca!se of co!rse he realised he had one right there.
In fact it's when things don't go right that stories really get
interesting. Think a#o!t it. :irl "eets #oy. They like each other
and then they get "arried.
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&ct!ally yo! co!ld do that story really well and very si"ply. I
like to watch a lot of fil"s #eca!se so"e of the #est storytellers
o!t there right now are definitely fil"?"akers. :o to yo!r localvideo shop start renting stories. E9plore the genres that yo!
wo!ldn't !s!ally. :et so"e foreign "ovies o!t or take so"e
"ovies fro" the children's section. :o and start reading
children's stories and children's #ooks8 #eca!se the stories that
yo!'ll find in those are very si"ple and very direct. They also
e9plore the real"s of "agic and what's possi#le and
i"possi#le ... cats and dogs talking and things like that8 #eings
appearing o!t of nowhere. Monsters and gho!ls.
That story8 girl "eets #oy8 they like each other and then they get
"arried. There is a fil" act!ally called “My /ig 4at :reek
edding.”
(ow I don't know if it's every#ody kind of "ovie. It's a very
si"ple ro"antic co"edy and what I love a#o!t that "ovie is
act!ally nothing "!ch happens in it. Slightly fr!"py wo"an
dolls herself !p and goes to night school. Handso"e lect!rer
appreciates her for what she is. They hang o!t. Her dad gets a #it
!pset #eca!se he's not :reek . They get "arried.
(ow if yo! look at "ost stories and partic!larly the stories that
yo!'ll find in the #lock #!ster ranks of the Hollywood hits. This
is not what happens8 is it;
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It's "!ch "ore likely that girl "eets #oy8 girl and #oy hate each
other or arg!e over so"ething. :irl and #oy keep "issing each
other for *D years cos they're in the wrong ti"e in their life. :irland #oy fall in love #!t then they can't get together8 it's fr!strated
!ntil it all co"es together in the end in a great #ig happy #!ndle.
o! #egin to see when yo! look into stories that there are
act!ally so"e really si"ple narratives going on there. :irl "eets
#oy8 s!re there are an infinite variety of versions of that story #!tat the sa"e ti"e there are so"e pretty si"ple and inevita#le
tr!ths within that.
Igor5
>ne of the things yo!'re doing very elegantly8 I think8 and this is
very i"portant8 is the idea8 first of all. e recognise stories. eknow what are good stories and what are #ad stories which
"eans inside of !s we have to have so"e kind of story "aking
"achine that recognises what is a good story and what is a #ad
story. If we didn't ... like8 if a narrative violates whatever r!les are
in o!r "achine8 then we think that's a #ad storyB which "eans if
we have that "achine8 then its 6!st a 7!estion of refining it.
It goes #ack to what yo! said at the #eginning. If yo! 6!st listen
and start appreciating stories8 yo!r "achine gets so strong that at
so"e point it 6!st wants to #e a#le to do its own thing. o!'ll #e
a#le to tell stories or create the" #eca!se it's filtering thro!gh the
sa"e #asic network.
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& key str!ct!re that yo!'re p!lling o!t that I like to e"phasis
often8 is the idea that a story is not 6!st a series of events. It's
what happens when a series of events is interr!pted and peopleare changed as a res!lt of it. That's what the story is.
%o#in5
&#sol!tely. I think that's so"ething fro" eith <ohnson8 isn't it;
Igor5
E9actly. I think it's one of the si"plest and "ost powerf!l tr!ths
in ter"s of storytelling. o! know8 yo! don't 6!st tell a se7!ence
of events of what happened. It's when those events so"ehow get
sidelined and so"ething else starts happening. That's when the
interest perks !p and that's when the !nconscio!s "ind goes8
“>h8 there's a story that's #eginning to happen.
Then all the things8 whether it's conflict or fr!stration or fear8 or
challenging yo!rself8 whatever those things are that derail the
nor"al story8 so to speak8 those are the #its that end !p changing
so"eone for the #etter or for the worse and that's how we know
that8 first of all8 the story has startedB and we also know how thestory has ended8 #eca!se that's when we know the person has
#een changed. There's a co"ing ro!nd of the circle. The circles
are co"plete.
So we have all the #asic fra"eworks. Tell a little five year old kid
a story that isn't a story and they'll tell yo!8 “(o@ o!'re doing it
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all wrong8 this has got to happen and this.” They'll correct the
story for yo!. So perhaps we sho!ld think "ore si"ply and I like
yo!r idea of reading children's stories #eca!se when yo! startthinking "ore si"ply8 well then yo! leave roo" to let yo!r
!nconscio!s show yo! the way in ter"s of what act!ally works.
%o#in5
E9actly and what this whole reason that we're talking a#o!t here8
the first reason that stories are so powerf!l is #eca!se there is a #asic str!ct!re in o!r "inds that does this anyway. e can't help
it. hen we create8 when we recall a scene8 we confa#!late8 we
create the "e"ory again fro" snatches of i"ages and so!nds and
we p!t those together.
(ow I think the second reason that stories are so powerf!l is #eca!se they have #een thro!gho!t h!"an history the "ost
f!nda"ental way in which c!lt!re8 history8 the r!les and nor"s
of #ehavio!r within a partic!lar c!lt!re are trans"itted fro" one
generation to the other.
There are a n!"#er of shifts that have occ!rred in h!"an historythat have changed the way c!lt!re is trans"itted as well. The
invention of writing was a "a6or one.
/efore literacy all stories were trans"itted orally thro!gh story
telling and rit!al. So"eti"es thro!gh artefacts8 or sy"#olic
locations that served as "e"ory aids. o! "ight think of so"e
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of the cra=y ideas they have a#o!t the neolithic !se of the
landscape to sy"#olise the 6o!rney thro!gh death and #eyond.
(ow #eca!se those stories were passed down fro" generation to
generation8 the interpretation of these stories and the e9pression
of the" changes. It changes as the environ"ent changes. There is
an in#!ilt "echanis" that links grandparent to grandchildB and
it's theorised that in preliterate c!lt!res living so?called
“traditional” ways of life ? let's say hortic!lt!ral or s!#sistencelifestyles. Storytelling is an i"portant feed#ack loop that ens!res
that over generations the stories re"ain acc!rate e9pressions of
deeper c!lt!ral tr!ths while adapting to changing conditions.
It's an interesting contradiction8 an interesting interplay. If we go
#ack to the H!nter in o!r story .. the H!nter in o!r story isoriginally fro" &r"enia and he's the son of a traditional
&r"enian storyteller called an &shok.
I don't know if yo!'ve heard of :!rd6ieff. I know Igor yo! have.
:!rd6ieff was a spirit!al teacher fro" &r"enia. He lived in
%!ssia. ell8 when we first enco!nter hi" he is living as a g!y
called )rince >laf. In %!ssia8 this is the ti"e of %asp!tin and
the revol!tion that co"es. I g!ess :!rd6ieff shoots to fla"e8
fa"e and fla"e@ .. when he is discovered #y >!spensky.
>!spensky is a spirit!al teacher and writer who ... I think he
works 7!ite a lot in England. He's already got 7!ite a #it of fa"e
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and he #!"ps into )rince >laf and 7!ickly realises that this g!y
is the gen!ine deal. &t least he's gen!ine eno!gh to fake it as far
as >!spensky is concerned.
He was an incredi#le g!y8 he lived an incredi#le life. He act!ally
escaped with h!ndreds of people. He fled aro!nd %!ssia. Settled
in vario!s places. H!ndreds of people ca"e to hi" and travelled
with hi" and he ta!ght thro!gh theatre. He was always
rehearsing a theatre play8 a co!ple of theatre plays with theseela#orate dances in the". /!t the plays were never perfor"ed8 I
don't #elieve8 ever. (ot #y hi" anyway #eca!se he wo!ld find
so"e reason to interr!pt it8 or events wo!ld interr!pt it.
/y the way8 :!rd6ieff is8 in "y "ind8 one of the "ost
acco"plished storytellers ever8 #!t if yo! act!ally try to read his #ooks yo!'ll find the" i"penetra#le.
“&ll and Everything” or “/eel=e#!#'s Tales to His :randson”8
is a h!ge to"e. It's 6!st long8 long words8 and invented words
one after the otherB that send yo!r head into a state of
go##ledegook. It's the "ost a"a=ing dense connection of nestedloops yo! co!ld i"agine.
It doesn't help that :!rd6ieff was pro#a#ly at the ti"e in a lot of
pain. He'd s!rvived two assasin .. well he'd #een shot twice.
He'd #een in a car accident that wo!ld have killed "ost people.
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He was &r"enian. He was writing in &r"enian8 and I think
%!ssian8 and his works were #eing translated into :er"an and
then English8 so hey ... It's not s!rprising they're conf!sing.
/!t everything that yo! ever want to know a#o!t hypnotic
storytelling is contained within his #ooks and there are so"e
ge"s of conf!sion and interr!pt techni7!es hidden in there for
the advanced st!dent.
(ow what :!rd6ieff wrote in the introd!ction to his first #ook8
“/eel=e#!#'s Tales to His :randson” was very interesting
#eca!se he said8 “I'" trying to write this in a way8 with a new
logic that is going to totally transfor" the way that yo! think and
feel a#o!t the world. I want to destroy every single
preconception and yo! have a#o!t how we ca"e to #e where weare right now and wake yo! !p to what is going on.”
&nd he proposed and s!ggested that si"ply reading his "aterial
and listening to his stories wo!ld #egin to do that for yo! . It was
a #old clai" #!t an i"portant and interesting one #eca!se he
realised that each of !s is #orn into a certain kind of hypnoticreality. e think the world is a certain way. It's not A always the
way that we tho!ght.
The "ore yo! learn to step into other people's shoes8 the "ore
yo! start to listen to how they see the world and how they feel
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the world yo! know8 then the "ore perspectives yo! are going to
haveB and that can #e very rich.
:!rd6ieff grew !p. His father8 like the h!nter in o!r story. ... his
father was an &shok8 a storyteller. He got #ro!ght !p in a really
f!nny kind of way. He'd #e woken at 3 in the "orning to take
cold showers. He'd have "ice and rats and spiders thrown at
hi" while he slept. He'd #een #!ried alive and p!t thro!gh all
kind of tests8 all kinds of trials8 to harden hi".
In the evening when he sat and played in front of the fire8 his
father and his !ncle8 who was also an &shok8 they wo!ld sit and
they wo!ld talk together and tell each other stories. hat
:!rd6ieff didn't realise8 and what the H!nter didn't realise was
that all the ti"e they were talking to each other8 act!ally while hesat distracted in play8 they'd #e weaving little "agic tales8
teaching hi" things !nconscio!sly that he'd only realise later.
This &r"enian &shok tradition is a fascinating e9a"ple of an
oral c!lt!re in action. They wo!ld hold these great festivals
where storytellers wo!ld co"pete with storytellers. I"agine it.It's a tent. It's f!ll of people. )ro#a#ly there's #een dancing and
drinking and eating of food. There'll #e people sitting aro!nd
with the kids8 keeping the" co"forta#le and war". >n the stage
there will #e these storytellers playing instr!"ents and throwing
"elodies at each other. Like #an6o d!elling I g!ess@ Throwing
#its of "elody #ack and forth and i"provising. They'd co"pete
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to tell stories as well and to gather the #iggest crowds aro!nd
the".
There's s!ch an interesting interplay here #etween i"provisation
and that spontaneo!s play and creativity and str!ct!re. There's
nothing for "e that highlights that "ore than so"ething that
:!rd6ieff writes. He said in the *+2D's he got hold of a
translation of the Epic of :ilga"esh. This epic had #een known
a#o!t and it had #een discovered in vario!s different scripts andvario!s different ta#lets. So there was a translation in the *FFD'sB
then8 I think8 in the *+2Ds8 they fo!nd "ore ta#lets that ena#led
the" to co"plete the pict!re.
:!rd6ieff read so"e of this translation and he recognised one of
the verses that had #een translated fro" the ta#let as so"ethingthat his father had ta!ght hi". His father had learnt it fro" the
oral tradition.
(ow we can't' #e s!re #eca!se of co!rse the &r"enian &shok
tradition co!ld have co"e across this story in a written for". It
co!ld have #een introd!ced fro" so"ewhere else. /!t there isthe possi#ility that a single verse8 verses of this epic had #een
preserved orally for at least 3DDD years. The epic of :ilga"esh
is pro#a#ly first #ro!ght together so"ewhere #etween 1*st and
the 1Gth cent!ry /-. So that's yeah8 3DDD years ago.
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There's an interesting interplay here #etween conservation ? the
way in which so"e ele"ents are preserved8 and i"provisation ?
how things change and #eco"e fl!id as they adapt to what'sgoing on.
/y the way8 what happens with the invention of writing is that
s!ddenly that c!lt!ral trans"ission it gets fi9ed and the
generational feed#ack loop gets c!t so"ewhat. )eople start to
"istake literacy as a!thority and the word #eco"es the finalar#iter of anything. It's not #y chance that the &#raha"ic
religions8 <!dais"8 -hristianity8 Isla" are called the people of
the #ook.
&t the sa"e ti"e the #asis of peace and sec!rity in the west is
fo!nded largely on the r!le of law. hat is law if it is not 6!stso"ething written down in a #ook. There are two spellings of
that word #y the way8 think a#o!t it.
I think there has #een another i"portant change with the
invention of the printing press. S!ddenly all the old power elites
str!ct!red aro!nd knowledge trans"ission ? I'" thinking of thech!rch8 I'" thinking of the state. They have #een forced to accept
the de"ocratising power that co"es with the ind!strialisation of
infor"ation. hen yo! can print h!ndreds of #ooks8 when
anyone can print a #ook and now of co!rse anyone can share
their story with anyone in the world. It's as easy as flicking a
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light #!l# or at least switching a co"p!ter on and !sing a
"o!se.
The way history is written has #een f!nda"entally changed #!t
the i"portance of powerf!l and co"pelling stories re"ains the
sa"e #eca!se of co!rse yo! want to #e a#le to separate 7!ality.
So we got to this point in the story8 didn't we where the h!nter
has set o!t on one path and the Merchant has set o!t on another.
ears pass5 how "!ch ti"e; e don't know8 #!t years rather
than "onths. e get to the other side of the lake.
)ict!re this8 o!r Merchant is arriving in town at the far side of the
lake8 he rides into town on a great white horse. His saddle#ags
are f!ll of gold and he has a retin!e of followers #ehind hi". He
#ooks into a hostel and8 while his fa"ily and servants set !p
ho"e8 he strides into town8 walking down to the har#o!r to look
o!t over the lake to the castle on the island.
<!st as he reaches the shore8 who sho!ld he see walking towards
hi" #!t his old co"panion the H!nter.
“My friend@” he sho!ts. The H!nter looks !p and they e"#race.
“It's #een s!ch a long ti"e. I never tho!ght to see yo! again so
soon co"e sit with "e. Let !s share a pot of tea and so"e nice
cakes and we "ay talk of o!r advent!res.”
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So they sit down in the co!rt yard of an Inn8 in the foreco!rt
there8 and they look at the castle and the island8 "!ch closer
now. So "!ch closer. The Merchant t!rns to the H!nter and hesays8 “ell here we are now@ Tell "e yo!r story ...”
and the H!nter #egins.
“I travelled for only a few days when the path ca"e to an end
and I had to c!t thro!gh the thickest part of the forest. I
followed ani"al tracks. So"eti"es I c!t #ack to the lake shore
to "ake "y way aro!nd the "angrove swa"ps when the forest
proved too thick. Even in the "iddle of the deepest forest I ca"e
across these h!ge stones8 these carved fig!res of civilisations
flo!rished and decayed. 4or weeks I didn't see a single living
so!l. The ga"e was good and the ani"als and plants that grewthere asto!nded "e with their diversity and their #ea!ty.
“I ca"e to a land that had #een c!ltivated and there was
inha#ited #y a rich and peacef!l people who welco"ed "e. They
gave "e a ho!se in which to live. I stayed with the" for a year
learning their lang!age and their c!sto"s. &t the end of the yearthey offered "e a #ride to seal "y co""it"ent to the peopleB #!t
I co!ld not stay. Tr!th is8 I re"e"#ered o!r pro"ise. I
re"e"#ered that only a year and half #efore we had agreed to
"eet and so I said good#ye to that place and I left to contin!e on
"y 6o!rney.
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“The road #eca"e harder for a while. I had #eco"e !sed to
co"pany8 I g!ess8 and to the l!9!ry of hearth and ho"e and "y
"!scles had #eco"e soft and la=y. /!t I persisted8 and s!reeno!gh8 #efore too long8 "y heart grew strong and the life
thrilled thro!gh "e again.
“I travelled thro!gh an arid desert where nothing grew #!t rocks.
4ro" there into foothills rich with springs and cattle?herds. /!t I
was not welco"e here and every where I went I was chased offthe land and they called "e a poacher for "y tro!#les”
“I escaped higher into the "o!ntains and took a drink of water
fro" a strea" there. Hidden in the "o!ntain8 a valley8 an ancient
r!in8 a city long overgrown with weeds.”
“I stayed for days e9ploring there. It was as if the people had
si"ply vanished8 their ho!ses and #elongings left #ehind. There
was a great te"ple and #ehind the altar I fo!nd a passage leading
into a syste" of caves8 and in the caves were roo"s f!ll of great
treas!res. (ot 6!st gold and precio!s 6ewels #!t ancient
"an!scripts of a dead tong!e8 fa#!lo!s works of art preservedso"ehow.”
“I e9plored the caves and spent ho!rs in st!dy8 co"paring their
sy"#ols with lang!ages I'd co"e across8 !ntil I #egan to
!nderstand the secrets they contained.”
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“In that secret place away fro" the eyes of "an I #egan to write
down "y own story. I wrote of "y tri!"phs and of "y ecstasies.
&ll those things I was "ost pro!d of. I wrote of "y pain and "ysha"e. I wrote the secrets that are only ever written in the #ook
of the heart.”
“I co!ld have taken those treas!res into the light8 so"e of those
scrolls and "an!scriptsB #!t I g!essed that s!ch a thing wo!ld not
long re"ain secret8 that if I s!ddenly #ro!ght s!ch treas!res intothe land of "en then people wo!ld feel a desire to find that secret
place8 and that secret treas!re8 and to pl!nder it for the"selves.
So"ehow8 I felt it was #etter left there. The only treas!res I
carried o!t fro" that place were those treas!res that I'd fo!nd
inside "yself.”
“I co!ld have stayed in those dark caverns for a life ti"e. there
was so "!ch to learnB #!t I re"e"#ered o!r pro"ise again and I
decided to contin!e on "y 6o!rney.”
“I collected !p "y notes and "y knife and #ow and I left this city
hidden in the valley in the "o!ntains.”
“I tripped and fell so"e ti"e on "y 6o!rney8 and "y leg was
#adly h!rt and #eca"e infected. I had to keep on walking. I
followed the slopes of the "o!ntain as #est I co!ld8 looking for a
place to rest and to tend "y in6!ry. I picked !p a follower8 I
think8 a lone "ale #ear followed "e fro" a distance8 waiting its
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chance. I #eca"e afraid to stop8 afraid to sleep8 "y infections
grew worse and in desperation I str!ck o!t to the very top of the
"o!ntain8 daring the #ear to follow "e there.
“I left #ehind the "eadows and the slopes and the clo!d forest
that fringed the snow line8 and I p!shed higher. The #ear
followed "e into the cold wastes. I fo!nd a great slope of #roken
rock and cli"#ing to the top of these I settled "yself on a place
fro" which I co!ld watch the "o!ntain #elow. Every ti"e the #ear ca"e in sight I wo!ld throw rocks at it8 dislodge stones so
that an avalanche wo!ld cascade down. I tried to rest. I tried to
sleep.”
“I think I co!ld have frightened the #ear away at last #!t a great
stor" ca"e into the valley and snow settled thick . I #!rrowed"y way into the snow creating a shelter there. So cold.”
“I don't know how "!ch ti"e passed. I fell into a deliri!". I
fo!nd "yself #ack in the caves !nder the city in front of a great
door that sw!ng open to reveal a land dark and fore#oding8 filled
with grey ghosts that followed "e8 their ar"s stretched o!t as iffor al"s.”
“I walked on thro!gh the land till I ca"e to a #lack river. I
wanted to cross the river #!t a wo"an8 naked e9cept for a crown
!pon her head8 appeared there. She said nothing #!t pointed with
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her pale hand. Her long fingers see"ed to grow towards "e. She
directed "e #ack the way I'd co"e.
“I awoke to find "yself in the ice cave8 the s!n glowing #rilliant
thro!gh the snow walls. My fever was gone8 "y leg was #etter
I'd s!rvived and escaped the #elly of the #ear.”
“I fo!nd "yself ne9t in a valley little "ore than a shallow #owl
c!t into the side of the "o!ntain. This place see"ed to have its
own cli"ate. It was protected8 e9posed to al"ost constant
s!nlight d!ring the day8 fed #y rich strea"s. Life flo!rished all
aro!nd "e and I stayed here for a long ti"e while I healed and
ret!rned to f!ll strength.”
“hen there was no h!nting to #e done. hen I had eaten well
and slept #etter I wo!ld sit a#ove the valley fro" s!nrise to
s!nset o#serving its passage across the sky8 following the growth
and flo!rishing of the ani"als and plants of the valley. I was an
e"pty 6ar and the valley the water po!red in to fill "e !p.”
“I was never happier. I co!ld have stayed there for the rest of "y
life8 #!t8 again8 so"ething called. I felt I had discovered a great
secret. I wanted to share it with the world. I left the valley
thinking to travel to so"e #ig town or city and fro" there ro!nd
again8 aro!nd the lake. I co!ld see as I ca"e down the "o!ntain8
even8 the great castle rising into the sky. I re"e"#ered o!r
pro"ise.”
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“&s I passed thro!gh the foothills of the "o!ntain8 I chanced
!pon a far" and I so!ght o!t those that dwelt there for
provisions8 food.”
“There was a #rother and sister nearly grown to ad!lthood. They
told "e their far" had #een attacked and looted8 their parents
killed and their ho!se #!rnt to the gro!nd. They were afraid to
stay for the #andits wo!ld #e #ack de"anding tri#!te and8 well8
they had not the strength or knowledge to work the land as their parents had.”
“They #egged to co"e with "e and taking pity I led the" into
the forest that #orders the lake.”
“&gain "y 6o!rney see"ed to #e interr!pted8 #!t #efore I left
the" I wanted to teach the" everything I knew of how to live8
how to s!rvive. I ta!ght the" the allies and foes of the world of
plants8 the prey and predators of the ani"al world and what I
knew or co!ld teach the" of "an8 the fiercest #east of all.”
“They were 7!ick and keen to learn. They flo!rished@ Soon I
tr!sted that they co!ld s!rvive on their own #!t still I stayed. In
tr!th8 I had fallen for the girl and she for "e and we re6oiced
when she #egan to grow with child.”
“If only we had stayed in the forest. e co!ldn't live for ever
witho!t h!"an co"pany@ The #oy was restless to find one to
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cleave to8 how co!ld I deny hi" that8 and o!r child.. ell we
needed co"pany8 we needed people. I co!ld not force the" to
take "y path8 tho!gh s!re I think they wo!ld have travelled with"e willingly even to the end.”
“I can #arely speak of what happened ne9t. e fo!nd a s"all
village #y the lake and were welco"ed with open ar"s. e
#ro!ght gifts of food fro" the forest and things that we had
"ade. In the night as we slept a gro!p of "en fro" the villageattacked !s. I woke to the so!nds of a cl!# falling on the #ody of
"y #rother8 the cries of "y wife. :od how we fo!ght she and I.
e fo!ght for o!r lives8 for the life of o!r child. e ran with
nothing fro" that place. e 6!"ped into the lake to swi" away
so we wo!ld not leave a trail of #lood for the" to follow. e
reached the shore a "ile or two fro" the village and I fell into a
sleep.”
“>h8 I wish I had never woken fro" that sleep. I did and fo!nd
"y wife dead #eside "e. >h8 I was so filled with grief I wanted
to die. I did not eat. I did not sleep. I wandered thro!gh the
forest8 a "an "arked for death8 praying that so"e #east wo!ld
"ake a "eal of "e. Ti"e and again I re"e"#ered what had
happened. as I responsi#le; o!ld these two have lived if it
was not for "e; I #eca"e like a ghost8 #!t death wo!ld not take
"e and grief see"ed to 6!st harden "e "ore.”
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“Event!ally I "ade a "eal of fr!its and roots I gathered in the
forest and8 saying a prayer for those I had loved and lost8 I #roke
"y fast and resolved to co"plete "y 6o!rney.”
“The people here are good@ They have treated "e well. They
gave "e a ho!se in which to live first and they said nothing and
asked no 7!estions. They fed "e and let "e sleep and rest. &nd
then they sat8 6!st 7!ietly8 silently with "e at first8 one or two8 a
yo!ng #oy here8 an old "an there8 all in passing on the way tothe "arket.”
“&nd they shared this 7!ality that they co!ld 6!st si"ply sit with
"e. They did not ask "e for anything. May#e they shared a
"o"ent of their day with "e #!t they wo!ld sit and look at "e
and s"ile8 and it was like they were #reathing at the sa"e ratethat I #reathed and waiting to hear the so!nd going on in "y
head8 the pict!re I had. She wo!ld 6!st raise her eye#row8 like
this.”
“Soon eno!gh I #egan to talk and tell people "y life and "y
history and what had happenedB and8 as I told "y stories8 they #eca"e eager listeners.”
“They gave "e space and ti"e and see"ed to !nderstand "e as I
shared with the" the e9periences of "y life that had #een so
powerf!l. They were a good people8 7!ick in their generosity8
slow in their anger.”
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“&s is their tradition here8 after so"e ti"e I was s!""oned
#efore the town co!ncil and asked to give an acco!nt of "y life
in p!#lic. They asked "e 7!estions8 then8 of "y life with "ywife and her #rother5 of the ti"e I had spent in the "o!ntains and
of "y 6o!rney #efore I "et yo!.”
“I told the" everything8 even those things of which I a" least
pro!d. There was a gentleness in their "anner that gave "e
co!rage8 and at the end of the telling I was led away8 and their"eeting contin!ed long into the night witho!t "eB and at the end
of it I was called #ack. I was given this ho!se to stay in and8
weighing "y wisdo" and "y "istakes in the #alance8 the people
have chosen for "e a 6o# for which I a" "ost fit.”
“&nd here I have re"ained ever since.”
(either the H!nter or the Merchant spoke for a while ...
The Merchant says8 “I've got so "any 7!estions to ask yo! a#o!t
that@ That story@ /!t hey yo! "!st #e tired fro" yo!r tale8 its
only fair that I sho!ld tell yo! "ine.”
The Merchant calls for so"e "ore tea and a plate of rich and
filling cakes as they sit in that inn on the foreco!rt8 looking down
on the lake and the castle on the island.
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(ow8 when the Merchant set o!t on his path8 he already had the
secret knowledge that everyone was e9traordinary. He'd
discovered this very early in life. &nd he discovered that he had aknack8 not only for seeing the dia"ond that's inside everyone.
He also had a knack for knowing 6!st where that dia"ond wo!ld
#e "ost !sef!l. &nd for p!tting the one together with the other.
I don't know ... in yo!r e9perience Igor8 #eca!se I've8 re"e"#er
I was telling yo! a#o!t Sharon;
Sharon who" I worked with in the office and I forgot to tell yo!
an i"portant thing a#o!t her. -an yo! #elieve I'd do so"ething
like that;
Igor5
Shocking@
%o#in5
I was 6!st getting so lost there8 I didn't tell yo! that i"portant fact
a#o!t Sharon.
ell8 Sharon and I !sed to work in this office and8 like I told yo!8
she wo!ld #e on the phone to vario!s record prod!cers and
sending off envelopes.
I g!ess I've always en6oyed going into places where "ay#e I
don't fit in co"pletely8 #!t I always find that I can learn
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so"ething e9traordinary. &nd I think that goes #ack to the first
6o# I ever had after finishing "y & levels and #efore I went to
!niversity.
I went and I worked on a #!ilding site for eggy the plasterer.
This g!y eggy was not so"eone who" I wo!ld ever have h!ng
o!t with in nor"al life8 he was a co"plete "ystery.
He was a racist and a se9istB he wo!ld swear all the ti"eB every
other word that he !sed was a swear word8 and he wo!ld stand
there and he wo!ld co""ent on the wo"en on the newspapers
that he readB and then he'd #e really hypocritical8 when there was
a wo"an present it wo!ld #e all8 “>h8 "!stn't swear in front of
the lady@”
I was fascinated #y this g!y. There was this other g!y who
worked at the sa"e place called Steven Shakespeare. Shakey
we called hi". This g!y was 6!st s!ch a nat!ral storyteller and
what he wo!ld do is ... he'd go o!t on a 4riday night and he'd get
dr!nk8 and he'd get into a fight8 and he'd get off with so"e#ody's
girlfriendB and he wo!ld co"e #ack on Monday "orning8 andhe'd tell !s all a#o!t it. It was a"a=ing #eca!se he wo!ld 6!st act
o!t these events in front of !s.
& few years later I went to see a Stephen /erkoff show which
was very physical theatre. I saw what they were doing on stage
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and I tho!ght8 that's e9actly like Shakey !sed to do. <!st standing
in front of !s at work on the #!ilding site.
I s!ppose it was these early e9periences that got "e thinking
a#o!t anthropology and ethnology. This is 6!st this idea that yo!
really #egin to investigate different c!lt!res and to recognise that
people are different wherever they co"e fro".
o! know I was #orn in &frica and so in a way that gave "e a
do!#le description when I was growing !p. My ti"e in England8
I already had this other world of &frica to co"pare it with. &s I
was growing !p I #eca"e fascinated with people who go and
live in indigeno!s gro!ps. o!'ve seen the" on the telly@ A or
they go !nder cover with gangs and con artists and things like
this.
I #eca"e an !ndercover ethnologist and this was interestingB this
act!ally proved to #e a very !sef!l skill later in life when I was
working in corporations as a cons!ltant. -os I wo!ld sneak in
so"eti"es and8 yo! know8 go and work there and act!ally get a
feel for what that infor"al at"osphere was like8 that yo! only getto find o!t ne9t to the photocopy "achine and #y the water?
cooler.
Igor5
ell yo! know the interesting thing that yo!'re talking a#o!t
there is ... this again is why I love the way that yo! teach. o!
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!se stories to teachB and then yo!'ll act!ally talk a#o!t the whole
process itself and yo! have the left and the right #rain8 the
conscio!s and the !nconscio!s "ind going together.
So"ething which is very interesting a#o!t what yo!'re talking
a#o!t there5 the ethnologists who go in and infiltrate either secret
societies or #e part of so"e tri#e in the "iddle of the 6!ngle
so"ewhere. I think its a very i"portant way of looking at the
world #eca!se yo! can't 6!st st!dy the" fro" a #ookB yo!'ve gotto have the e9perience first then co"e #ack to yo!r nor"al
reality8 so to speak.
Then yo! can start to integrate and find o!t. Here's a description.
Here's how their world view "akes sense given how they think8
#elief8 act and so onB and yo! can't do that 6!st #y o#servingthe". o! can't do that #y 6!st reading a #ook a#o!t the" or
watching a fil". o! have to dive in and live with the".
This is why I ad"ire the way that yo! work. o! know if yo!'re
going to go in and work for a corporation8 or8 rather8 if yo!'re
going to do so"e coaching work there yo!'ll #e act!ally so"eonewho is down in the trenches doing the work firstB and then once
yo! get a sense of what its like to #e there8 then yo! can do
c!lt!ral change #eca!se yo! know what the c!lt!re is.
They don't tell yo! what the c!lt!re8 is yo! act!ally get to
e9perience it first hand which is "!ch "ore i"portant. &nd
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correct "e if I over step the "ark in what yo!r trying to say8 here
#!t one thing that I think is a really i"portant position for
storytelling is that they are the place where those c!lt!resact!ally co"e to life. That's how yo! can tell what a c!lt!re is.
It's the stories that people tell each other8 like yo! said8 #y the
water cooler.
%o#in5
&#sol!tely
Igor5
It's where that heritage co"es fro" and it's how yo! can change
it as well. -hange the stories that people tell each other and yo!
can change the whole c!lt!reB #!t yo! don't know what stories to
change !nless yo! have people feeding into the" to "ake the"co"e to life again. >ther wise it's 6!st8 “st!ff so"eone invented”
They don't really care a#o!t that too "!ch.
%o#in5
That's very i"portant. There's a "odel that I love.
hen I say it's a "odel its so"ething that's #een invented
a#stractly. It's not e9actly a direct reflection of anything that I
know necessarily e9ists o!t in the real world.
It's fro" “The %evol!tion of Everyday Life” #y %ao!l aneige"
who was one of the 4rench sit!ationist philosophers.
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He says that the world co"es into #eing thro!gh creativity and
tho!gh self e9pression8 that self e9pression takes place within a
co""!nity of love8 thro!gh people who learn to work together #y playing together.
Igor5
es and I think that's very i"portant #eca!se that's where the
stories co"e in. This is a the"e that yo!r work has8 and act!ally
yo! started right at the #eginning with this. o! set !p so"ec!riosity loop with Sharon's story and "y story of how we first
"et which I think was a f!nny event.
/!t yo! really get this idea that yo! have to play ga"es8 get
people's i"aginations r!nning away with the". -os yo! only get
to the point8 and this is so"ething which I wo!ld really love for people to get8 this is so"ething which shines thro!gh in how yo!
work with people.
& great storyteller isn't a polished storyteller. & great storyteller
is so"eone who's got a story that is #!rning inside the" to s!ch
an e9tent that they get carried away with it. They can't help #!ttell it. It's like I said I was sitting in a #ar and I was "aking !p
these stories a#o!t people 6!st #eca!se I was #oredB and one of
the" 6!st str!ck "e as so odd and c!rio!s8 I had to share it with a
co"plete strangerB and nor"ally I wo!ldn't 6!st t!rn aro!nd and
6!st talk to the". I wo!ldn't #e interested #!t I had to share it and
we have a story like that which has so "!ch life in it that yo!
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can't do anything #!t let it go and share it with so"eone else.
Those are the kind of stories that change lives and change
c!lt!res and change all kinds of different things.
%o#in5
It's tr!e. I realise so"eti"es when I've "et people they've told
"e so"ething in the first five ten "in!tes a#o!t the"selves that
later on I realise is f!nda"entally i"portant to !nderstanding
their whole life and how it fits together.
Igor5
ell I think yo! know this goes #ack again to the idea of stories
and this is so"ething8 if I can 6!st #ack track in ter"s of what
yo!'ve #een doing in the last few seg"ents of yo!r story telling.
&s yo! pro#a#ly are aware the story hasn't finished yet8 the loop
will contin!e@
So I'" not going to interr!pt that process8 in fact I don't even
know where the story is going so I can't@ /!t so"ething that I
want to "ention which yo! know people can really get8 is the
story that yo!'re telling ? the H!nter and the Merchant. It's
clearly a "ade !p story. It's got all the overt!res of a classic
fairy tale or story story rather than the personal story.
%o#in5
es
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Igor5
/!t there is so"ething in that which I think is really i"portant
for !s to draw o!t. It goes #ack to this idea of #eing anethnographer and seeing people fro" their own c!lt!ral point of
view rather than fro" yo!r c!lt!re's point of view. Even if later
one were to descri#e it differently.
That's the idea of a tr!th val!e to a story. Technically yo!'ve #een
lying to !s all day8 right; /eca!se yo!'ve "ade !p a story thatdidn't e9ist. The H!nter never lived5 the Merchant never lived.
%o#in5
>h da"n8 yo! gave away "y secret@@
Igor5
There is no Santa -la!s. So if yo! tho!ght there was then ha ha@@
Cweeping0
/!t there's so"ething "ore i"portant8 #eyond that level of the
tr!th val!e and that is the idea that there is an e"otional tr!th.
hen yo! were telling the story yo! co!ld clearly hear8
especially when it got into the shall we say to!gher areas8 when
we have overt!res that he's going to lose his wife. &nd that
happens.
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If yo! listen to that story again8 if yo! "issed it the first ti"e ? I
do!#t yo! co!ld "iss it #eca!se it was pretty o#vio!s. o! got
carried away #y that part8 yo!r own e"otions got s!cked into itand it was clear that yo! either sy"pathised and e"pathised with
the H!nterB and pro#a#ly yo! had yo!r own personal pain of
so"e other things that happened to yo! co"e into it at the sa"e
ti"e. S!ddenly that story8 at least for "e8 #eca"e ten ti"es "ore
powerf!l.
Jp !ntil that point the story was interesting and it had so"e very
clever devices in ter"s of talking a#o!t the str!ct!re of stories8
i"provisation and loving stories8 e9ploring stories in one way
and different ways and we'll tease so"e of these things o!t later
on when we've co"e to the ending of the f!ll story.
4or "e8 so"ething that is very i"portant is the story s!ddenly
took on a co"pletely different8 a "!ch deeper aspect8 a "ore
hypnotic content when yo! switched that on inside yo!rself.
4orgive "e if I 6!"p ahead of so"ething that yo!'re pro#a#ly
going to #e teaching a little #it later on. It "akes sense at this point for "e.
It's the idea that8 how did we get there; How do yo! t!rn a
nor"al story8 a very interesting and engaging story into
so"ething which was s!ddenly "!ch "ore powerf!l. &nd of
co!rse the answer is8 yo! act!ally #eca"e "ore v!lnera#le.
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This is the really interesting thing a#o!t yo!r work. It p!lls o!t
two of the key the"es yo!'ve #een talking a#o!t in yo!r story.
The Merchant v the H!nter. There are two different story telling paths there. M!t!ally8 they can #e co"#ined. They're not
e9cl!sive to each other #!t the power of the warrior's path8 the
H!nter's path8 is pain8 is s!ffering8 is "essing things !p. It's the
v!lnera#ility where people really find their power.
This is a really i"portant part of storytelling and yo! have a realco!rage8 and I think I really love yo!r coaching process #eca!se
it shows people how to have the co!rage to go to those darker
areas of their lives8 things they don't nor"ally ever share8 and
reveal the" in a way that isn't 6!st going to #e accepted #y their
a!dience so they don't get re6ected #y the" and their worst fears
co"e tr!e8 #!t it act!ally #eco"es very healing.
Like the story of the h!nter in the village. hen he shares his
pain a#o!t his wife and his #est friend who died tragically it
doesn't 6!st get hi" accepted #y the village ? and we get to find
what special task they gave to hi"8 #!t it also clearly #eca"e the
point that t!rned hi" aro!nd fro" #eing lost in grief and
wanting to die ? it #eca"e the point of his salvation as well. &nd
that's a real #ig thingB and it's an i"portant the"e that people
"iss a lot of ti"es and I 6!st wanted to re?e"phasis here.
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%o#in5
eah8 I think yo!'re right f!nda"entally. There is nothing "ore
powerf!l than that revealing of v!lnera#ility.
/y the way I sho!ld reass!re people really that when yo!
e9perience that v!lnera#ility as a storyteller8 perfor"ing8 for
e9a"ple8 in the way I e9perienced it earlier. It's not so"ething
that yo! get lost in #eca!se at the sa"e ti"e as opening that
channel to v!lnera#ility8 yo!'re still act!ally "aintaining a veryclear head and a really solid gro!nding8 that yo! are here and
now telling a story and that this e"otion is "oving thro!gh yo!.
The e"otion that co"es o!t is not yo!rs to control in a lot of
ways8 it's the gift that yo!r !nconscio!s is a#le to give yo!.
Igor5To take that point a little f!rther8 act!ally 6!st to delve into a
"etaphor that people will #e "ore fa"iliar with fro" the
hypnosis work they've #een doing ...
e were talking a#o!t of co!rse the hypnotist's trance8 the trance
the hypnotist goes into in order to do hypnosis #etter. That's notthe sa"e trance that the s!#6ect goes into8 which is the trance
where their eyes are closed and they're #l!##ering and drooling
away on the floor and having a great ti"e.
It's very hard to do hypnosis when yo! can't act!ally physically
talk8 right;
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I think the storytellers e"otions are the sa"e. There is an
a#sol!te tr!th. It was clear yo! were going thro!gh that e"otionB
#!t it's a different way of e9periencing the e"otion than #eingdo"inated #y it. o!'re act!ally releasing it. It's "!ch "ore like
yo! "entioned in the very first interview5 the :reek idea of
catharsis. here e"otions "ove thro!gh yo! in s!ch an
!ninhi#ited way that it #eco"es healing8 it #eco"es releasing8
rather than having this #!##le of negative e"otion trapped
inside of !s it releases !s.
This is so"ething that eith <ohnson talked a#o!t and I think
he's a great storyteller. So"ething that rang a really powerf!l #ell
with "e. He talked a#o!t how8 when yo! "ake a "istake in
I"pro8 in i"provisational theatre ? yo!'re #asically "aking st!ff
!p as yo! go along.
The story ? I've seen whole plays8 like an ho!r long play which
people "ake !p right on the spot8 which is a#sol!tely ingenio!s
to watch. hen it works well horrifying to watch if it doesn't
work o!t8 #eca!se the actors 6!st get it wrong if their "ind is in
the wrong place. It's horrifying #!t when yo! get a good tro!pe
that works well together and has the r!les of i"provisation8 the
r!les of creativity8 drilled into the"8 those r!les act!ally set the"
free to create this a"a=ing piece of work.
>ne of those r!les is8 and this is so"ething that eith <ohnson
was talking a#o!t8 which I think is 6!st ingenio!s a#o!t life in
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general8 is that8 when an actor is on a stage and he "akes a
"istake8 he has two choices. He can either feel e"#arrassed and
the a!dience will hate hi". &nd the reason they will hate hi" is #eca!se they are e"#arrassed with hi".
He's 6!st sha"ed the a!dience. The a!dience have got their heart
on their sleeves and they are with the actors with the e"otion on
the stage so when the actor gets e"#arrassed the a!dience get
e"#arrassed with hi" and they feel asha"ed and whatever theactor "ay #e feeling and they don't like hi" for it.
hereas the actor who "akes a "istake8 shr!gs8 s"iles and goes
whoops...
Here's an e9a"ple of it the first ti"e I ever saw this. I was
pro#a#ly seven years old. There was a "!sical recital at school
and one of "y #est friends was playing the clarinet. I still
re"e"#er it to this day. He walks on stage. Every#ody's nervo!s
#ack stage.
He walks on stage8 starts playing his clarinet. & really horri#le
s7!eak co"es o!t. He stands dead silent.. &ll the parents are
a#o!t to cringe in their seats. He p!ts a #ig cheeky #oy grin on
his face and goes “rong@@” and starts again. Every#ody 6!st
cracked !p and I tho!ght8 “I want to #e like yo!@”
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%o#in5
I can see that g!y now.
Igor5
That was a really powerf!l "o"ent. That was pro#a#ly #etter
theatre than I've paid good "oney for.
%o#in5
I re"e"#er a si"ilar thing that happened on stage once d!ring a
play “The Thwarting of /aron /ollingrew” and "e and "y co?
actor8 Sarah were in the front of the stage in the "iddle of a
ro!tine and so"e#ody #ackstage ? the Magpie8 who was o!r
assistant ? knocked over so"ething and "ade a #ig kerf!ffle.
Sarah 6!st t!rned ro!nd and she said8 “>h8 silly Magpie@” &nd
6!st "ade it a part of what was going on.
Igor5
That's one of the key #ea!ties or advantages of storytelling8
partic!larly the way that you do it which has a "!ch "ore
spontaneo!s ele"ent to it.
S!re8 yo! prepare storiesB and the story of the H!nter and the
Merchant ? incidentally in case yo! g!ys are wondering8 that is a
story that's never #een told #efore8 ever8 #eca!se I asked %o#in to
create so"e stories to teach !s a#o!t storytelling and he said
“S!re8 I'll "ake so"e st!ff !p.”
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So this is the first ti"e it's ever #een heard. It "ight even #e the
last@ The point8 tho!gh is5 it's a great storyB and it's clearly one
yo!'ve prepared #!t its also one that evolves8 it grows with thetelling8 it grows with the a!dience. That's the power that we have
as hypnotists8 telling stories. e get to #ring the a!dience in.
It's the incorporation principle all over again. o! know8 yo!'re
doing a reg!lar hypnotic ind!ction and a siren goes #y. hat do
we do ... “and the siren 6!st re"inds yo! how !rgent it is for yo!to #eco"e #etter and stronger h!"an #eing.”
Stories allow !s to do that in a "!ch "ore powerf!l wayB
#eca!se yo! can do!#le realities !p "!ch "ore elegantly8 I
#elieve8 and this is why I think if yo! want to sit there and write
o!t a story and "e"orise it and then recite it that's one thing. /!t!nless yo!'re really trained as an actor to #ring a story to life like
that8 the "!ch "ore powerf!l8 and8 in "y opinion "!ch "ore
powerf!l in life8 for yo! as a hypnotist anyway is to "ake the
stories where yo! know what yo! want to say8 the story is a live
inside of yo! #!t then yo! 6!st "ake it !p as yo! go along.
hy; /eca!se once yo! know the way?points yo! can #ring
things in8 yo! get to "ake a "ention here8 a "ention there8
so"ething that a character says in a story this ti"e ro!nd will
reflect the 7!estion so"eone in the a!dience 6!st had8 right;
%5 &#sol!tely
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Igor5
That's where these stories really grow and they drag people in
and people don't want to leave the story.
Like right now8 I "ean one of the reasons this is an !n!s!al
interview for "e. Js!ally I 6!st pipe !p all the ti"e and ask
7!estions and "ake co""ents #!t I can't #eca!se "y "ind is
still st!ck in the stories. >8 I don't want to interr!pt hi" 6!st in
case he starts the story !p again #eca!se I want to hear what'sgoing on ne9t@@ Cla!ghter0
%o#in5
I think it's a very i"portant distinction that yo!'re "aking here
#etween acting and straight dra"a and storytelling and the key
difference is in this relationship to the a!dience. ithstorytelling8 yo!'re right8 yo! have a #asic str!ct!re and yo!
know where yo!'re going and "ay#e yo! have so"e nice florid
phrases that yo!'ve worked into it8 yo! know8 so"e poetic pieces.
Each of those poetic pieces8 of co!rse8 in (L) or in hypnosis
ter"s8 they're anchors8 #y the way. This is a little cl!e for yo! to
#e !sing later.
/eing a#le to asse"#le all of those when yo!'re in a roo" with
people ... o! start telling that story a#o!t a #oy and a girl and it's
not any #oy and girl #eca!se8 as yo! start8 yo! p!t yo!r hand on
the chair of so"e#ody in the a!dience. o! look at the" and yo!
introd!ce the girl. May#e yo! look at so"eone else in the
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a!dience and yo!'re s!ggesting8 yo!'re #ringing the a!dience into
this. o! allow the" space to interr!pt yo!. May#e they'll have
so"ething that can add to the story. In fact there are techni7!esthat yo! can !se to 6!st stand !p in front of a gro!p of people and
go >@ here are we; ho else is there; Start asking
7!estions. hat happens ne9t; Soon eno!gh yo!'ll #egin to #!ild
a rich story5 people8 they 6!st can't help it.
&nd in order for yo! to #eco"e a fantastic storyteller it's reallyi"portant that yo! step o!t of yo!r #o!ndariesB that yo!8
partic!larly in what yo! read and what yo! see8 yo! know8 get
the newspapers that yo! disagree with or get the "aga=ines that
yo! disagree with8 read stories in genres that yo! wo!ldn't
!s!ally go toB #eca!se yo!'ll get far "ore perspectives on the
world that way.
I also want to say one "ore thing a#o!t v!lnera#ility and the
power of that8 cos8 yo! know8 there're two sides to that. There's
the #eing a#le8 as a perfor"er8 to #e v!lnera#le and to co""it
yo!r #ody to the storyB and there's the v!lnera#ility of sharing
personal infor"ation8 personal stories.
There is nothing that gives yo! "ore a!thenticity yo! and #!ilds
#elief and tr!st with people 7!icker than act!ally #eing honest
a#o!t the things that yo!'re not so pro!d of8 and things that have
happened to yo!8 where yo!'ve learnt great lessons that are !sef!l
for people.
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May#e that's the difference with the stories I tell. I "ake lots of
"istakes and I'" 7!ite happy to talk a#o!t the". <ho!gh
so"eti"es I e9pect people to pay "e "ore #efore I'll tell the".
Cla!ghter0
Tr!th. o!'ve got to have so"e #o!ndaries. I fig!re if people are
prepared to co""it to that kind of ongoing process with "e and
share so"ething of the"selves8 then I owe it to the" to share
st!ff that I wo!ldn't share with the general p!#lic. There are
#o!ndaries.
To co"e #ack to v!lnera#ility and tr!th as well. I "et two
wo"en in "y life #oth of who" had very e9tre"e a#!se when
they were children. >ne of the" dealt with it8 l!ckily was
fostered into a fa"ily of co!nsellors and she act!ally got a lot of
help with her anger and her pain and she ended !p living a good
life8 she had a h!s#and and kids A
The other wo"an held on to her anger8 she was really angry #!t
she fig!red she co!ld do so"ething a#o!t it and she went o!t and
she told her story and she act!ally ended !p creating a whole
network of ref!ges for wo"en so they co!ld escape fro"
do"estic violence.
o! see8 they #oth dealt with their anger and their pain8 #!t they
did it in different waysB and #oth of those ways are valid.
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hen it gets ro!nd to telling yo!r own tr!th8 I think that there is
a tr!th that shines o!t8 that there is always so"e inner e"otional
tr!th that yo! can share8 while the details of the story that yo!tell "ay#e lies.
Storytelling is lying. It's "ake #elieve and I consistently lie and
change the na"es8 the identities8 the occ!pations8 se9es and
partic!lar sit!ations of8 for e9a"ple8 I tell yo! stories a#o!t
clients that I worked with. There's no way any of that is going to #e tr!e #eca!se I a" very caref!l to protect people's identity like
that.
o! know this g!y Shakey8 for e9a"ple. %eal g!y8 #!t yo! know
yo!'ll never need to "eet hi" or know who he was. /!t I can tell
yo! a story a#o!t how he !sed to regale !s with these advent!res.
The thing a#o!t eggy the plasterer the real cl!e I got to 6!st
how wonderf!l people are8 and how e9traordinary everyone is ..
&fter he'd known "e for a while and he'd co"e to tr!st "e he
started A he'd go A yo! know8 when we take o!r tea #reak
ne9t; !".. as yo! go past the stores8 6!st gra# a #ag of ce"ent
and stick it in the #ack of "y car8 yeah; on't say anything to
anyone a#o!t it.
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&nd I was like oh@ >h@ here we go ... so"e #it of dodgy dealing.
Sho!ld have known. ell I did it anyway. He was "y #oss8 #it
e"#arrassed.
L!nchti"e we go o!t. e take the #ag of ce"ent and plaster in
the #ack8 we drive o!t to a #ig fieldB and it t!rns o!t that the
local foot#all tea" need to p!t !p so"e new goals. e're
spending o!r l!nch ti"e p!tting the concrete aro!nd the holes for
the goal posts so that eggy can co"e #ack later with so"e ofthe wood he's stolen fro" another site8 and p!t !p so"e goal
posts for this foot#all field ne9t to this cl!# for disadvantaged
yo!th. &nd I s!ddenly ... over ti"e #egan to realise that all these
little side trips he was taking were to give flowers to old ladies or
visit people who were sick.
&nd I really got to see how so"eone who I had reacted to in a
very #ad way at first8 who I tho!ght 6!st isn't "y kind of person8
had so"ething inside the" that was e9traordinary.
I don't know a#o!t yo!8 Igor. I've never "et anyone who didn't
have so"e re"arka#le aspect to their storyB and the a"a=ingthing is that !s!ally yo! don't even realise its re"arka#le #eca!se
it's 6!st yo!. It's 6!st a part of who yo! are. To yo! it's ordinary8
#!t to other people8 it's different8 its interesting8 its fascinating.
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Igor5
o! know this is very tr!e and this goes #ack to yo!r core idea of
to #e a great storyteller8 yo! need to start #y #eing a great storylistener8 really appreciating the stories8 really appreciating things
that yo! don't !s!ally otherwise hear in people. The other thing
is8 and this is so"ething again which yo!r coaching progra"
#rings o!t8 I think8 and I really like a#o!t how yo! do this ? It's
an idea fro" eith <ohnson. o! don't try and #e an original. If
yo! try and #e an original with yo!r stories yo!'ll pro#a#ly "ess
!p8 and yo!'ll end !p having pretty d!ll stories.
I "ean8 yo! know8 so"eti"es8 when yo!'ve got a little "ore
e9perience8 yo! can get a little "ore original8 whatever it is. /!t
yo!'re "issing the real pay dirt if yo! try and #e original #eca!se
there is no s!ch thing as an original story. Like yo!r classic
e9a"ples8 how "any ti"es have yo! "entioned #oy "eets girl8
and even8 h!nter "eets #rother and sister8 falls in love8 has #a#y
and #a#y dies8 right; That's not a cra=y story. It happens in
everyday life all the ti"e8 right;
et we're still "oved #y it e still wanted to hear what's going
on8 we're still hoping yo! .. that she'd s!rvive. That story wasn't
original8 I "ean its pro#a#ly as clichKd as yo! can get and I hope
yo! don't "ind if I say that in so strong a ter" #eca!se yo!
perfor"ed it and yo! set it !p and yo! allowed it to evolve in
s!ch a powerf!l way that it didn't "atter that it was fa"iliar.
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e appreciated it "ore al"ost #eca!se of its fa"iliarity and
that's so"ething really i"portant for people to get5 don't try to #e
clever with yo!r stories8 the cleverness will co"e #y its self.
Try and have an honesty8 going #ack to the tr!th idea8 the
e"otion of a story8 and that's where the power co"es fro". o!
can have a nor"al story and it's fine.
%o#in5
eah8 and 6!st look aro!ndB 6!st look aro!ndB and the ordinary
people aro!nd yo! yo! will find are e9traordinary.
Sharon8 who" I !sed to work in the office with ... & few years
after I'd stopped working there8 I hadn't seen her for a while. She
rang "e !p o!t of the #l!e. She said8 co"e down to the ap -l!#
tonight. There's a la!nch. There's a #ig party@
I went down and I was a"a=ed to discover it was the cele#ration
party for the fact that Sharon was the singer on a n!"#er one
record. Her record was at n!"#er * in the J charts@
This singer I knew8 and s!ddenly she had gone fro" working in
an office to #eing there8 doing e9actly what she wanted to do
with her life. She'd #o!ght her ho!se for cash@ Sat aro!nd and got
very co"forta#le.
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o! know we were talking a#o!t the Merchant and how what the
Merchant had was this great skill that he realised that every#ody
is e9traordinary.
hen he set o!t on the path ... (ot long after he had #een
travelling he ca"e !pon a gro!p of :ypsies and the :ypsies
weren't8 at this ti"e and this place ...they weren't welco"e within
the #o!ndaries of the nearest town.
They'd fo!nd a pleasant "eadow8 so"ewhere #ack fro" the lake8
to "ake an enca"p"ent.
The Merchant was a keen follower of stories and he said5
“I decided to find o!t "ore a#o!t the land in which they ca"e
fro". I followed the" down to the "eadow and I asked their
king8 #eca!se yo! know :ypsies have kings too. I asked the" for
per"ission to stay for a few days.”
“I wo!ld sit there with "y pen and collect the stories that I heard
aro!nd "e. I soon discovered that the wo"en of that tri#e8 they
had a great skill with weaving8 especially with "aking carpets.”
&nd the Merchant said A
“I was str!ck with an idea and i""ediately sprang into action.
&fter "!ch #argaining I agreed that I wo!ld go into the town and
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p!rchase the "aterials that wo!ld #e needed for the" to "ake
"ore of these r!gs and carpets. I wo!ld #egin to look o!t for
so"e c!sto"ers for the". So I went to the town8 I "ade s!re thewo"an had everything they needed and that "y invest"ent was
safe with the".”
“I set "yself !p a little shop and I #egan taking orders fro" the
wives of the town. >nce I had so"e sa"ples of the :ypsies'
handiwork the carpets #egan to sell the"selves. 4or everyone inthe town co"peted over who sho!ld have the finest ho!se.”
“ell8 the ing of the :ypsies was well pleased with the
#!siness we did with the first set of carpets. He agreed to
contin!e with the trade as long as the land was welco"ing to
the".”
“This p!t "e in a good position. I had eno!gh "oney to pay
so"eone to r!n the shop8 and the "aterials for "any "ore
carpets. &nd I had a little insight. /eca!se the :ypsies had #een
"aking pict!res on their r!gs8 they'd #een "aking decorations.”
“They "ade pict!res of the "o!ntains and the lakes aro!nd !s
and scenes fro" the village and the castle. &nd after I had spent
a little while in the town and talked to the gossip "ongers and the
r!"o!r "illers I ca"e #ack with so"e s!ggestions of little ideas
and devices for the :ypsy wo"en to p!t into their designs.”
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“So this ti"e when the scene of the town was painted ? the ho!se
on the hill was on fire as it was that ti"e A or when the castle
was pict!red5 there was a lady looking o!t into the wood and alittle lover hiding there8 her secret lover.”
“e #egan to p!t the town and the whole area and their little
stories into the tapestries and they sold like cra=y@@”
“I contracted with another Merchant to s!pply a shop in the ne9t
town aro!nd the lake. I #egan to !se "y new infl!ence to gain an
a!dience with the Lord of the s!rro!nding land. He lived in a #ig
villa overlooking the town.”
“I was a reg!lar soon at festivals and feasts@ &nd the no#les of
the town held great parties to which I was always invited.”
“If yo! go to that place now yo!'ll still see all the walls of the
great halls and every #edroo" h!ng with one of these r!gs8 one
of these carpets. The :ypsies had e9celled the"selves and in
their enth!sias" they #egan to work "agic into their designs.”
“(ow when I was at the great ta#le at the illa8 I #egan to hear
stories of the :reat ing and the castle in the "iddle of the lake.”
“It was said #y the no#les of the town8 tho!gh not in his
presence8 that even their Lord had #een ref!sed ad"ittance. To
gain ad"ittance8 the s!pplicants8 yo! see8 had to de"onstrate
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great learning8 great acco"plish"ent in the world. Even then8 to
have the right to enter the castle was apparently at the whi" of
those who g!arded it. So"e people clai"ed that to view thegardens and the li#raries of the castle yo! had to apply in writing
to the ing. >thers said no8 no. (o application was possi#le. (o
"atter how "!ch yo! wanted to visit the castle8 entry was #y
invitation only and no one knew when or how the invitation
wo!ld co"e.
“& few even clai"ed yo! needed no special 7!alifications to
enter at all. These people clai"ed that anyone #rave eno!gh
co!ld enter so long as they co!ld pers!ade so"eone to carry
the" across the lake. It was the 4erry"an they said who had the
final nay or yea a#o!t who sho!ld #e ad"itted.”
“It was at the ta#les of the no#les of the town that I also #egan to
hear talk of a secret society8 a shadowy gro!p of "asters who
ta!ght an ... occ!lt science8 that wo!ld answer the 7!estions we
o!rselves had asked as we travelled along the road.”
“Intrig!ed as I was I had "ore pressing considerations.”
“I knew8 e9perienced as I was in the ways of #!siness8 that
sooner or later so"e other Merchant wo!ld #egin to copy "y
s!ccess in the r!gs and the carpets and s!ch like. There wo!ld #e
new "arkets to sell to #!t "y "argins wo!ld #e red!ced. I knew
it was ti"e to #e on "y wayB so I fo!nd a"ong the Merchants of
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the town a tr!sted #!yer for the #!siness8 and satisfying "yself
that "y o#ligations to the :ypsies were f!lfilled8 I packed !p "y
#elongings and contin!ed on "y 6o!rney.”
“I'd "ade a good s!" of "oney fro" "y latest vent!re. I left
with two servants8 three horses laden with "erchandise
sa"ples of the r!gs #!t also gold and 6ewellery finely worked8
and the #eginning of a li#rary of old #ooks.”
“ell8 we travelled along the lake very co"forta#ly8 trading and
gossiping on the way8 picking !p little tit#its of knowledge that
the lake dwellers and the people who passed along the ro!te
shared with !s. It was d!ring this part of the 6o!rney that I ca"e
!p with "y second great #!siness sche"e.”
“I #egan to realise that the "ost val!a#le co""odity of all8 "ore
val!a#le than gold and 6ewellery even8 was knowledge. The
price of fish in the "arkets along the lake shore. The Merchants
travelling along the road and the goods they were carrying. The
#irth or death of friends or ene"ies8 all these little pieces of
gossip that passed fro" "o!th to ear8 they had val!e to the right people. &s we contin!ed along o!r ro!te I tho!ght long and hard
a#o!t how I co!ld !se this infor"ation to "y advantage and #y
the ti"e we reached the ne9t town I had a plan in "ind.”
“I settled "y retin!e into a hostel. Tr!sting the" to get on with
the work of "y e9isting #!sinesses8 I p!t "y latest sche"e into
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action. I contacted a Merchant who printed engravings. I
contacted a "e"#er of one of the societies of no#les that I had
6oined while in the previo!s town. ith the contacts8 "y "oney8the printers8 we recr!ited a tea" of r!nners who" we #egan to
send o!t in #oth directions aro!nd the lake. Their 6o# was to
record all the gossip8 the news and to relay it #ack to !s as
7!ickly as they co!ld.”
“e created a society of s!#scri#ers fro" a"ong the richest ofthe Merchants. e #egan to p!#lish reg!lar #roadsheets of all the
infor"ation we collected8 hastening the progress of infor"ation
aro!nd the lake.”
“ell I need not ela#orate to yo! on the details of "y sche"e #!t
I will say that we flo!rished@ e recr!ited printers in othertowns8 "essengers fro" the land #eyond the lake. /efore long I
"oved "y operations into a great villa on the o!tskirts of the
town.”
“There wasn't roo" to store the riches I #egan to acc!"!late8 #!t8
knowing that in #!siness a fall can co"e at any ti"e8 I !sed the"oney wisely. I #o!ght land8 ho!ses8 invested in solid #!sinesses
and diversified "y so!rces of inco"e so I was protected against
any s!ch event.”
“ell8 "y #!siness affairs #eing in order I #egan to think of the
sweeter things that life has to offer. I had a #ea!tif!l villa #!t it
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was e"pty of life and love. My fa"e was spreading far and
wide. It was not long #efore the invitations to feasts and dances
and cele#rations #egan to po!r thro!gh the doors and I availed"yself of the opport!nities I co!ld. I was approached #y "any
fathers offering "e their da!ghters. Several ti"es I was te"pted
#!t fate intervened.”
“>ne day8 working in the li#rary contin!ing "y st!dies into
occ!lt "atters8 I chanced to fall into conversation with a wo"analso st!dying there. She was a lay sister in a near#y "onastery
who had dedicated her life to higher st!dies #!t now wished to
ret!rn to the world. e 7!ickly realised we were kindred so!ls
and #efore the week was !p we were wed and she ret!rned to live
with "e at the villa.”
“&h@ (ow a new world of e9perience opened !p to "e ? #esides
the 6oy of o!r physical love for one another8 a great respect and
affection grew #etween !s. e shared what we'd learned of
higher knowledge. My #!siness prospered and within a year god
#lessed !s with twins a #oy and a girl child. e adopted two
"ore children fro" a poor fa"ily and !nder the infl!ence of
Maria "y wife we #egan to do good works aro!nd the region8
providing al"s8 #!ilding hospitals8 yo! know the kind of thing.”
“I "!st tell yo! now of a certain "atter. Soon after I conceived
of the #!siness of news8 I was approached #y the "ayor of the
town who invited "e to 6oin a select gro!p of no#les who
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engaged in the st!dy of a certain #ook. I progressed swiftly
thro!gh the c!rric!l!" of the society and was initiated into
certain secret cha"#ers8 gro!ps who "et in secret and whoseidentities were hidden even fro" each other.”
“I #egan to learn the tr!e nat!re of the castle and the :reat ing
who dwelt there. In tr!th I #eca"e a little wrapped !p in these
"atters. St!dying "aps and diagra"s late into the night8
neglecting "y fa"ily and the d!ties of "y #!siness. If it had not #een for "y wife perhaps things wo!ld have gone #adly for "e8
#!t she took "e to one side. She "ade it very clear where "y
#est interests lay@”
“I kept on with "y st!dies #!t I #egan to spend "ore ti"e with
the children and on o!r philanthropic work.”
“(ow "y #!sinesses were well esta#lished #y and save for a
co""on d!ty of care to those I entr!sted with "y affairs8 I had
no need to work.”
“My fa"e had spread aro!nd the e"pire. )eople #egan to
receive visitors asking for an a!dience. %e7!ests for "e to give
lect!res. They wanted to share the secrets of "y s!ccess in
#!siness and in life. 'Look at his wealth' they said 'look at his
fa"ily and his rep!tation. Look at his #ea!tif!l villas8 his far"s
his ho!ses in all the towns aro!nd the lake. S!rely here is a "an
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who can show !s the way we "ay #e as happy and s!ccessf!l as
he is.'”
“ell the tr!th was there were certain "atters I wanted to share
and "y feet itched for the road.”
“I'd learnt so "!ch8 #!t "y thirst for the 6o!rney to the castle was
!ndi"inished. >n the contrary it was strengthened. (ow I
#elieved I held the key that wo!ld gain "e ad"ittance to the
li#raries and gardensB and perhaps even an a!dience with the
:reat ing hi"self.”
“/!t I had a pro#le"8 Igor.”
Igor5
and what was that..
%o#in5
“ell8” said the Merchant8 “I didn't want to leave "y wife@ I
didn't want to leave "y children@ It was here again that "y wife
proved her worth. Sensing "y restlessness she took "e aside
again and she said 'Look8 do yo! think yo! are the only one who
wants to see "ore of the world. I want to forge a rep!tation
too@'”
“I saw that I'd fallen into the role of a h!s#and and a father and in
doing so I'd cast her in the role of wife and "other. I'd forgotten
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the very thing that #ro!ght !s together in the first place8 which
was this 7!est for knowledge.”
“So we left o!r #!siness in capa#le hands and we #egan a great
lect!re to!r fro" town to village8 so"eti"es diverting here or
there8 always heading ro!nd the lake to this8 o!r final "eeting
place.”
“)eople flocked to see o!r lect!res now. Maria had proved to #e
a powerf!l orator as well. She co!ld ro!se an a!dience8 invoking
in the" a great will to s!cceed@ I wo!ld lect!re8 too8 and answer
the "any 7!estions p!t to "e.”
“ell8 this has #een "y life for al"ost a year now. I confess
we've "ade as "!ch "oney again fro" o!r to!r as I ever did
fro" the newspapers@”
“I "!st tell yo! of one thing that happened on this last part of the
6o!rney8 tho!gh8 that did shake "y faith. ell8 we had crossed a
river and were looking for a place to stay8 6!st to rest and take o!r
l!nch8 and we saw a gro!p of people listening to a "an on the
#ank overlooking the river ? o#vio!sly another teacher.”
“e settled o!rselves down8 away fro" the crowd and8 as soon
as I knew everything was #eing set !p8 I went to the edge of the
gro!p and #egan listening.
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“The "an looked !p8 he spotted "e8 o!r eyes "et. I swear a
shiver passed down "y spine then. There was so"ething honest
in his look8 so"e power I had not felt #efore.”
“The tr!th is I felt he saw "e for what I was and what I was was
a well "eaning #!t #!"#ling and po"po!s old fool.”
“There yo! go.”
“He s"iled a welco"eB he gest!red for "e to sitB he didn't
interr!pt the flow of his story. (ow I've st!died with "any
teachers. Many of the" #elieved they were the g!ardians and
prophets of a great tr!th. This "an didn't have any of that. He
didn't answer 7!estions8 he asked the"@ He wo!ld say 'perhaps'
and '"ay#e' and 'I don't know'. &nd when he chose to answer a
7!estion he'd 6!st #egin to tell a story8 it wo!ld #e a si"ple story.
4irst yo!'d think it was a#o!t one thing then yo!'d #e s!re it was
a#o!t so"ething else. &nd then again yo!'d thing it was a#o!t
nothing at all@ /!t so"ehow yo! were left with the feeling that
yo!r 7!estion was answered8 or wo!ld #e if yo! 6!st went away
and drea"t on it so"e "ore. It wasn't 6!st what he said thataffected "e so greatly8 #!t the "anner in which he spokeB there
was a strength8 a gentleness in hi". It was as if he had no fear of
anything at all.”
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“Listening to hi"8 I felt all the knowledge8 all the #ooks that I'd
read8 6!st dissolving aro!nd "e. There was so"e si"ple tr!th in
6!st the words that ca"e o!t of his "o!th.”
“Seeing an opport!nity8 I asked the 7!estion that had #een "y
st!dy for the whole of "y 6o!rney aro!nd the lake. 'Teacher8' I
asked8 'what's the tr!e nat!re of the :reat ing of the Lake; How
can I gain ad"ittance to the castle;'”
“The "an looked at "e. I wondered 6!st how old he was. He said
'I'll give yo! an answer. I do not think it is the answer yo! were
looking for8 #!t it's the only answer I have.”
“'There is a kind of fish that lives in this lake8 #eca!se yo! know8
all the roads8 all the rivers in this part of the world they lead
down to this lake8 and all the stories end here.”
“'There's a fish that lives in this lake. It's an ancient deni=en that
has lived here long #efore "an ca"e.8 The fish are #orn in the
yo!ng strea"s at the foot of the "o!ntains. They grow to
ad!lthood8 they flow down the strea"8 down to the river and into
the lake. They re"ain there in the lake for perhaps a year8 they
feed they grow strong. <!st #efore the anniversary of their #irth
they're filled with a great yearning8 an inescapa#le desire8 and
they set off on a 6o!rney #ack !p the river8 #ack !p the strea" to
the very place they were #orn. (o one knows how they get there.
How they know that that's their place. /!t they "ate there. They
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lay their eggs8 and for "any that is the end of their short
e9istence. -os the 6o!rney #ack to that place is so tiring. They're
e9ha!sted8 they die. <!st a few of those fish s!rvive the diffic!lt 6o!rney and are carried #y the strea"8 #ack to the river #ack to
the lake.”
“'&nd they live o!t the year again8 they feed and they grow
strong. >nce they've done that once ... It's rare for a fish to "ake
this 6o!rney even once #!t rarer still for one to "ake it twice8 #!tonce they've "ade it twice8 those fish that do s!rvive grow #igger
and stronger with each year's 6o!rney and they live8 no one
knows how long.”
“'(ow the philosophers and the scientists8 they will tell yo! that
it's the sa"e water that flows fro" the "o!ntains8 thro!gh thestrea"8 into the lake8 it's the sa"e water that gets evaporated o!t
into the clo!d and falls again on the "o!ntain and travels down
the strea" and into the river and into the lake.
“'/!t yo! never cross the sa"e strea" twice. It's always
different.”
“'I don't know who yo!r king is. I've never "et hi". I don't
know what awaits yo! in the castle.”
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“'If I did "eet the :reat ing I s!spect that I wo!ld discover that8
6!st like yo!8 he had #een a #oy8 and 6!st like yo!8 he will #e an
old "an. He is a "an is he not8 6!st like yo!;'”
“ell I did not know what to say8 I had nothing to say.”
“It was as if I had to find a whole new way of looking at the
worldB and to #e honest I'" not s!re if I have fo!nd it yet.”
“/!t I did know that I had to co"plete "y 6o!rney. I had to
know the tr!th. I wanted to gain ad"ittance to the castle. I
cannot tell yo! what it is8 #!t the desire is still inside of "e. hat
do yo! say;”
The H!nter pa!sed and listened. He looked aro!nd there at the
town at the lake8 at the castle on the island in the lake.
“hat 6o!rneys we've had.” he said. “e set o!t in different
directions and yet we arrived at the sa"e place and fo!nd each
other.”
“hat ne9t;” said the Merchant. “Let's chance o!r ar"8 let's
co"plete o!r 6o!rney together. I have "ore gold than we can
carry8 "ore titles than I can write on "y coat. Together we have
e9perience8 skill and "!ch wisdo". I long to stand in the garden
of the castle. I long to per!se its li#raries and talk with its king.
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Let !s not wait any long8 I will send word #ack to "y ho!se8
fetch "y wife8 together we take a #oat. Let's go@”
The H!nter la!ghs and for the first ti"e since we've seen hi"
there is an ease and a nat!ral 6oy in hi". He s"iles at his friend.
“&h8 "y friend8” he says.” e'll travel to the castle today.”
“o!'re learning8 yo!r tales8 they'll serve yo! well with the :reat
ing. He loves to talk and to learn of the affairs of his kingdo".
/!t yo! will need no gold today8 no gold will #!y yo! a passage.
There's only one ferry passes across to the island. &nd I a" the
ferry"an.
Igor5
So8 %o#in that's 6!st fantastic8 that story8 it's involved8 it's
detailed8 it co"es in f!ll circle. I love the way that yo! finish the
story with the act!al 7!est which is to find the ferry"an in the
first place. Then of co!rse one of the" has #eco"e the very
person.
So"ething ca"e !p at the end of that story which we haven't
really to!ched on yet. e've to!ched on it indirectly a few ti"es.
It's an e9tension of the idea that the #iggest power of stories
co"es thro!gh v!lnera#ility. e had it with the H!nter with his
powerf!lly "oving tale8 #!t we also 6!st had it there with the
Merchant who #eca"e a scholar and how "!ch "ore char"ing
he #eco"es. hen he talks a#o!t his s!ccesses it's fine8 it's
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interesting. /!t the #it where I8 and I think people generally will
get the strongest connection to the story8 is the #it where he t!rns
aro!nd8 "eets this other teacher and is 7!ite honest a#o!thi"self. He says8 “o! know I was a #!"#ling old fool. ell
"eaning8 #!t 6!st an idiot any way.”
It goes #ack to what yo! said #efore8 the power of so"ething8 the
#it where yo! get s!cked in s!ddenly and so"ething deeper
happens in the story is when yo! are willing to #e v!lnera#le.
The #it I want to talk a#o!t here is creating the safe space8 within
which it can happen.
It happened with the H!nter #eca!se people were very kind and
let hi" be first. They listened in a certain way.
It happened with the Merchant8 #eca!se when he was connecting
with that teacher there's a wisdo"8 there's a sense of acceptance
of what is going on there.
It happens to !s as an a!dience when we hear so"eone sharing
so"ething "ay#e painf!l or e"#arrassing and we want to
enco!rage the" or we want to #e there for the".
The 7!estion then is8 how do we create that safe space so the
people who are going to go down "ore of the advent!rer's path8
are a#le to share those v!lnera#le "o"entsB to "ake "ore
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powerf!l "o"ents with people; How do they create a safe space
to tell it in an appropriate way that's not going to "ake people
take advantage of the" or get the" to lose face in so"e waythat is going to #e detri"ental to the".
%o#in5
It's always i"portant to #ear in "ind politics. I g!ess people
aren't always nice.
However8 I've generally fo!nd that "ost people I "eet ... and for
e9a"ple in the sit!ation of presenting or perfor"ing in front of a
large gro!p of people where yo!'re all gathered together ... The
fact is that those people want to see yo! s!cceed. o! saw that
earlier. The s!ccess8 yo!r a#ility to #e v!lnera#le in the "o"ent
in front of a gro!p of people si"ply depends on that space that iscreated #etween yo! and the a!dience.
It's so"ething that yo! have to feel o!t for yo!rselfB #!t yo!
recognise it. I've had people co"e !p to "e in "y life and 6!st
say8 “I don't know why #!t for so"e reason I think I can tell yo!
this.”
o!'re act!ally giving o!t a 7!ality of non?6!dg"ent8 of respect
and appreciation for all that they are. hen yo! do that8 yo! let
people #e the"selves. hen yo! recognise that in yo!rself8 that
7!ality of #eing a great a!dience "e"#er8 yo!'ll realise that
when so"eone is telling yo! a story8 partic!larly when it's
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so"ething for which they feel v!lnera#le or strongly a#o!t8 yo!'ll
#e aware that yo! react in certain ways to enco!rage the"8 to
de"onstrate to the" that they have the space8 that yo! are goingto give the" that space.
Si"ply notice those feelings8 #eca!se8 as we said at the
#eginning8 #eing a great storyteller is a#o!t #eco"ing aware of
the space where the story "eets the a!dience. hen yo! can #e a
great a!dience8 when yo! can !nderstand how yo! draw o!tstories fro" other people8 partic!larly those ones in which they
feel v!lnera#le8 then yo!'ll !nderstand the 7!ality that yo! have
to do it for yo!rself now.
I think it's i"portant to say when yo!'re #eing a storyteller yo!
are playing a role. There's a f!nction that yo! are playingB andwhat I #elieve8 when yo! are tr!ly perfor"ing at yo!r #est8
yo!'ve stepped into a place of flow and creativity where yo!'re
not responsi#le8 to so"e degree8 for what co"es o!t. There is a
gift working inside yo!.
(ow yo!'ll notice certain stories yo! connect with8 and certain #its of the stories that I've told today8 will have resonated with
yo! "ore than others. >thers yo!'ll have gone8 “>h yeah8 yeah.”
It's like ... I read #ooks all the ti"e and so"eti"es they'll go into
florid depictions of landscape. ell8 I don't act!ally need to read
every word of that8 I can 6!st look at the paragraph or the page8
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"ake a pict!re in "y head of what it is the words are descri#ing
and flick onto the ne9t page.
I don't have to read every single word8 so I'll ski" thro!gh it and
there'll #e parts of stories that yo!'ll think aren't directly relevant
to yo!. Hey8 g!ess what. It's a s"oke screen. /its that are going
to #e powerf!l to different people8 different people are going to
respond in different ways.
o! can hide a real e"otional tr!th8 #eca!se the stories that co"e
aro!nd it prepare the gro!nd8 they set the scene8 #!ild !p the
charactersB and they create engage"ent8 so that when yo! get to
the kicker8 that story where the v!lnera#ility 6!st co"es o!t8
yo!'re protected. o!'re protected #y the "yth of story. o!'re
protected #y the cloak of the storyteller. That "eans thateveryone knows that what yo! are telling are lies and everyone
knows that it's 6!st "ake #elieve8 even if its not.
&nd there's a very different 7!ality to the feeling of v!lnera#ility
that yo! e9hi#it as a storyteller8 as opposed to the v!lnera#ility
that yo! "ight e9press to a nearest and dearest. There is thisact!al very strong will8 this strong intention that is str!ct!red
aro!nd the story and it's that strong will and that str!ct!re that
ena#le the flow8 that ena#le the gift of creativity to co"e o!t and
connect with people.
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hat I'" co"ing ro!nd to saying is that #eing v!lnera#le is
pro#a#ly going to #e a lot easier than yo! tho!ght it was. <!st
like the g!y who went8 “oh@ >h silly8” and la!ghed8 and wasn'tafraid to la!gh on the stage.
Igor5
ell I think so"e of the i"portant things to co"e o!t of that
little ro!nd trip yo! gave !s there8 and8 again8 I totally agree with8
is first of all8 its state of "ind8. Like hypnosis8 if yo! have astrong hypnotic intent8 people will go into trances and do all
kinds of weird st!ff.
If yo! have a strong hypnotic do!#t8 then that gets transferred
and people will react. )eople tend to reciprocate the strongest
fra"e that's #eing created at that point in ti"e. So #y practisingwith other people8 #y #eing a#le to tease o!t their storie ?. I
partic!larly like that as an e9ercise. Tease o!t their stories and
their v!lnera#ilities in a way that they feel safe8 not 6!st telling
yo!8 #!t afterwards8 having told yo!8 it feels like the right thing.
It #eco"es an !n#!rdening for the"8 while yo! can respect the"
as a h!"an #eing8 despite whatever e"#arrass"ents they've
gotten the"selves into.
>nce yo! can go there with other people and yo!'ve done eno!gh
that yo! have this general attit!de that hey8 it's fine. o!'re a
h!"an #eing. I still like yo!. I still respect yo! despite the fact
that yo! "essed this !p in yo!r life. It's tr!e yo! #ehaved pretty
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despica#ly in that sit!ation8 #!t I respect yo! for having co"e o!t
of that as a #etter person. 4or wanting to not do that again.
>nce yo! have that attit!de inside yo!rself8 other people start
reciprocating it #eca!se #y telling the story8 #y sharing the
v!lnera#ility fro" the sa"e place8 even8 tho!gh there's e"otions8
like I was really e"#arrassed or whatever8 yo!'re #asically telling
people8 here's how yo! get to respond to this8 #y the way.
In a weird sort of way when yo!'re a#o!t to tell so"ething that is
v!lnera#le8 "y "ind at least a!to"atically #egins to re?fra"e the
sit!ation or create fra"es ahead of ti"e. I know that I can't tell
this story yet8 #eca!se I can see where the people listening are at.
&nd they're not in the place where I wo!ld #e if I was listening to
a story that was e"#arrassing or sha"ef!l in a way that wo!ld #ea #arrier to telling it. So I have to tell so"e stories first or I have
to create so"e fra"eworks first which takes the" there.
>nce they ac7!ire that space I go8 “>kay8 these people are here
now”. (ow I can start opening this door way !p and taking a
look inside it . This is a very delicate roo" so please #e caref!lwith it. They're now cal"ed down eno!gh that they can deal with
that fragility in a way that doesn't dis?e"power the" as an
a!dience either.
&nd it's 6!st a 7!estion of8 as yo! p!t it #efore8 I really like this
as an e9ercise. )ractise getting other people to share their secrets
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with yo!8 and respecting those secrets8 and #y doing that yo!'re
#!ilding a "ental "!scle that lets the rest happen a!to"atically.
It's a strange sort of e9perience when it happens.
%o#in5
&nd 6!st a fra"e for those of yo! who find yo!rselves8 #eca!se it
does happen8 and8 again8 I totally agree with is8 first of all8 its
state of "ind. o! say the wrong story in the wrong sit!ation.
It's a danger that yo! "ay co"e across. Think of it this way.o!'re act!ally an e9plorer8 an advent!rer. hatever "ost people
have in co""on8 whatever the co""on "ood is that prevails in
that roo". If yo!'re crashing into it then yo!'re act!ally "ore
likely to #e on the crest of the ne9t wave.
Igor5eah8 and8 yo! know8 I think the i"portant thing8 this goes #ack
to the idea of taking risks. I don't think yo! wo!ld say that yo!
take needless risks or st!pid risks8 and 6!st #l!rt st!ff o!t. /!t
yo! do take certain types of risks8 they're controlled risks8 they're
risks that we !nderstand.
It's like in a roo" yo! want to "ove it forwards The energy
always has to "ove forwards8 otherwise it dies. o! take the
energy forwards #y essentially going right #ack down to #asics8
which is8 yo! tr!st yo!r !nconscio!s. It tells yo!8 hey do this one
nowB hey so"eti"es it gets it wrong. So what.
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The point8 tho!gh is8 if yo! listen to it8 it very 7!ickly #eco"es
att!ned. o! #eco"e att!ned to a gro!p and !nderstand how
and what to say and this has #een "y e9perience a few ti"es. (ot as often as I'd like #!t I'" still growing "y own story telling
wings as I'" going along.
>ne thing that's happened to "e is I end !p saying so"ething or
telling so"ething8 a story that at first see"s inappropriate. It's
like there's a "o"ents pa!se. )eople kind of sh!ffle off. o!'regoing “>h "y god8 what have yo! done@” /!t so"ehow that
opens a door that everyone else was avoiding8 that was i"portant
to #e opened8 and as a res!lt of it things start co"ing o!t where
it's s!ddenly >. In retrospect the story #eco"es the perfect
thing to have said and it t!rns o!t to #e the right thing after all.
%o#in5
It's like yo! go into work the night after the office party and the
first thing yo! say is8 “o yo! think we sho!ld "ention that yo!
and /ar#ara slept with each other last night;”
Igor5So8 %o#in8 yo!'ve taken !s on a fascinating 6o!rney. o!r story
has #een delightf!l. o!'ve "anaged to weave in all kinds of
i"portant principles and we've talked a#o!t the" in?#etween the
sections as well.
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I'" 6!st staggered #y how "!ch is in that story. The idea that
everyone can do it8 it's a powerf!l thing. o!'ve taken !s thro!gh
a powerf!l e"otional roller?coaster.
I think if yo! weren't #efore8 after listening to that story8 already
we start to learn to listen8 to love stories #etter. e have a real
awareness of how stories can co"e in different placesB #eca!se
yo!'ve told different types of stories thro!gho!t this whole thing.
o! have the the"e of the H!nter and the Merchant8 #!t yo!
weave in all kinds of other things as well. )ersonal stories8 stories
fro" yo!r own life8 stories which were disg!ised as facts8 and all
kinds of other things in #etween.
It really goes into yo!r core idea8 which is we want to learn to
love stories8 listen to stories8 collect stories8 and at the sa"e ti"e8
how do yo! collect the"8 how do yo! find those stories;
It's #y !nderstanding people8 #y #eing willing to find that
dia"ond in the ro!gh8 inside of everyone else8 which is a story
waiting to co"e o!t.
&nd in the process of !ncovering that8 we act!ally learn so"e
tre"endo!sly i"portant skills of the storyteller's art. The whole
storytelling tradition #eco"es part of what we're re?discovering8
as people and as hypnotists in partic!larB this is really i"portant.
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hat we're saying really is5 we're working #ack with the
!nconscio!s. e're going #ack to that place where the
!nconscio!s is protecting itself and saying8 yo! can tr!st "e withthis one. That's what we're doing as hypnotists8 anyway8 it's 6!st
another way of learning it.
o!'ve thrown so"e intrig!ing pe##les o!r way which I look
forward to e9ploring with yo! later on in this session here. o!'re
sharing with !s8 for e9a"ple8 things aro!nd creativity andi"provisation8 co"ing as a res!lt of str!ct!re. So having r!les
that li"it yo!8 are the very r!les that set yo! "ore free.
That's a little the"e that's #eginning to develop here which I look
forward to e9ploring with yo! "ore f!lly later on.
e've clearly seen how having an e"otional range draws yo!
into the story "ore f!lly. e can't have doo" and gloo" all the
ti"e8 we can't have happiness and 6oy all the ti"eB #!t we can go
on a roller?coaster of an advent!re with the".
The story of the advent!rer8 of the H!nter was very "oving8 very
powerf!l and8 in a different way8 the story of the Merchant was5
very edifying8 very ed!cational. It took !s thro!gh different types
of e9periences so yo! get to choose the kind of stories that take
yo! thro!gh the e9perience that people need to have.
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The key thing is this idea that stories create realities for !s. I'"
going to #e listening to this story over and over again #eca!se it
really has ... it's like an encyclopedia of storytelling. It's got thedifferent attit!des of stories5 the safer stories that teach8 the
riskier stories that li#erate8 or the riskier stories that transfor"
people.
The co""on gro!nd #etween the" is really the space #etween
where the H!nter and the Merchant had their friendship developand how they don't have to #e "!t!ally e9cl!sive at all.
So I8 for one8 wo!ld like to thank yo! for that. I've had a
tre"endo!s ti"e following yo! on this 6o!rney8 and hopef!lly I
haven't interr!pted yo! too "!ch #eca!se I always find it
fascinating when yo! weave in so "any different and disparatetopics into a si"ple idea.
%o#in5
id I even give yo! a chance to interr!pt Igor;
Igor5
I8 for one8 had plenty of ti"e and I have really en6oyed this so
thanks for doing this with !s8 %o#in
%o#in5
I think what's #een f!n a#o!t doing this has #een #eing a#le to
weave together so"e of "ore “left field” st!ff that I !se8 with
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so"e of the "ore directly !sef!l tips and tricks that people need
to get started in 6!st going o!t there8 #eco"ing aware of the
stories that are aro!nd the"8 and #eginning to capt!re those.hen I coach people so"eti"es we !se so"e really weird and
wacky techni7!es8 I've gotta tell yo! so"e people have fo!nd
the"selves in a coaching session with "e going “&hhh8 oohh8
gghh8 why8 what;”
Igor5/y the way g!ys8 I can vo!ch for this "yself8 and its a
tre"endo!s e9perience. I "ean the st!ff that co"es o!t at the
other end8 I "ean8 “I had no idea that was in "e.”
%o#in5
There is a #ea!tif!l 7!ality to certain children's stories. I don'tknow if that's the kind of stories yo! want to create. Hypnotists
want to create fantastic8 engaging8 involving "etaphors that are
vivid and powerf!l for their clients. o! "ight 6!st want to tell a
story to entertain a friend8 or to "ake it easier to "eet so"eone
in a social sit!ation.
I've worked with people ... I've worked with senior directors of
co"panies like Shell and )roctor and :a"#leB and I worked
with a g!y who had a ,D "illion po!nd property and invest"ent
portfolio8 and the work I did with hi"8 it was essentially 6!st
so"e si"ple storytelling. I was teaching hi" how to present
fig!res and the concl!sions of those fig!res8 to a whole #!nch of
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people. /!t o!t of that work he decided8 he fo!nd that he had a
calling. That calling was to develop social ho!sing.
He ended !p la!nching this whole progra" of social ho!sing.
There are #!ildings all over the J now which were #!ilt
#eca!se that g!y realised that he had so"ething i"portant that he
wasn't doing5 a story that he wanted to share8 and he connected
with the power to share that.
That's why I love8 I a#sol!tely love8 the chance that I have to
work with people8 #eca!se everyone is so intelligent8 capa#le.
Everyone co"es with this !ni7!e perspective and so"eti"es yo!
have the hono!r8 I have the hono!r to see so"eone #losso" and
change like that and do so"ething8 so"ething powerf!l in the
world that I co!ld never have done.
Igor5
This is e9citing #eca!se this is kind of where we're going. So to
those of yo! listening to this5 this has #een the first session.
%o#in8 yo!'ve #een very genero!s with how "!ch yo!'re going
to #e sharing with !s #eca!se while those of yo! "ay #e thinkingthis is the whole of the session for this "onths' “Interview with
the Masters.”8 it's 6!st the #eginning. So the story that yo!'ve
#een listening to for the last two ho!rs or so is 6!st to prepare yo!
to #e a great storyteller.
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In the ne9t session %o#in's pro"ised to teach !s the perfor"ance
skills8 the perfor"ance secrets8 of a great storytellerB and he's
going to incl!de a little se7!ence I won't give away 6!st yetB #!the's going to create !s a conte9t in which yo! can find the perfect
place inside yo!r "ind to #e an instant perfor"er8 to #e a great
perfor"er of stories.
So instead of going8 I wish I co!ld tell this story #etter8 yo! get
to get o!t there and 6!st start sharing stories with the sa"e kindof e9cite"ent that yo!'ve heard %o#in !sing.
So that's so"ething that's waiting for !s in the ne9t session. I
really look forward to that. %o#in8 I really look forward to
speaking with yo! on that session as well. I think for now this is
a good point to pa!se8 to co"e to an end of the proceedingsB!nless there's so"ething yo! want to add8 so"ething we've
"issed8 o!t on so far;
%o#in5
(o8 6!st go o!t there8 get collecting stories. 4ind so"e ge"s and
start sharing with the" people8
Igor5
So8 %o#in8 what can I say; This has #een a fascinating 6o!rney. I
love the way yo! #lend realities5 fro" story to fact and fig!res8
to teaching8 #ack into story again.
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hen I look #ack on the whole e9perience we've had so far8 it
feels like I can't act!ally point at anything that I've learntB #!t
when I start thinking a#o!t the act!al ele"ents ... the idea oflistening8 finding insight in people8 #eing playf!l8 letting yo!r
i"agination r!n away with yo!8 letting stories carry yo! away to
the point yo! want to share the"5 having destinations in "ind8
the different types of stories8 the "ore advent!ro!s stories8 the
to!gher stories8 the gentler stories8 the ones yo! collect that are
"!ch "ore ed!cating5 the idea of how to get the story
interesting when things start going wrong ? and going wrong can
"ean so "any different levels of going wrong5 wrong in yo!r
story telling8 wrong in ter"s of what's going on in so"eone's life.
There is the idea of finding the tr!th in stories8 even when the
stories are "ade !p.
The traditions of stories that are #eyond 6!st telling stories8
there's written stories and so "any different places yo! can find
stories aro!nd !s in o!r daily life which we are ignorant ofB and
if we #eco"e "ore sensitised8 it 6!st #eco"es8 a nat!ral part of
what we do.
The e"otional range that yo! have in story telling is partic!larly
i"pressive and I look forward to yo! sharing so"e of those
secrets with !s in the ne9t session. &nd8 finally8 it's yo!r clear
passion a#o!t storytelling and how it transfor"s8 not 6!st the
a!dience8 #!t act!ally the storyteller hi"self.
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This is so"ething which I think powerf!l in the work that yo!
doB and I've had the great pleas!re of working with yo! as a
presenter8 and learning yo!r tricks. o! so get changed as a person when yo! learn to #eco"e a #etter storyteller. &nd I
strongly enco!rage everyone to listen to %o#in's advice here. :o
o!t there and tell stories. Listen to his stories again. They will
change yo!B and yo!r telling stories to so"eone else will change
yo! even "ore. So %o#in8 thank yo! very "!ch for sharing yo!r
ti"e with !s so far.
%o#in5
Thank yo! Igor8 its #een a pleas!re again. I look forward to the
ne9t one and hey g!ys8 go o!t8 listen to stories8 go and get those
's o!t8 En6oy@
Igor5
>k8 and we look forward to seeing yo! in the ne9t session So this
is Streethypnosis.co" I'" here with "aster hypnotist %o#in
Man!ell fro" Hypnoticstorytelling.co"
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& Master -lass in Hypnotic Storytelling
Listen to the whole series.
The )ower of -onversational Hypnosis.
iscover the Science of )ers!asion
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#li h d 1D*D i h