1. 2 Revelation Worship: Has the Time for Symbols Passed? chapter 19 People in the Presence of God...

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Revelation Worship:Has the Time for Symbols Passed?

chapter 19

People in the Presence of God

Revelation Worship:Has the Time for Symbols Passed?

chapter 19

People in the Presence of God

©2009 Barry Liesch Biola University La Mirada, California

©2009 Barry Liesch Biola University La Mirada, California

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Memorize Col 3:16-17 NASBMemorize Col 3:16-17 NASB

Let the word of Christ Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, richly dwell within you,

with all wisdom with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another teaching and admonishing one another with psalms, hymns, & spiritual songs, with psalms, hymns, & spiritual songs,

singing with thankfulness singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. in your hearts to God.

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Memorize Col 3:16-17 NASBMemorize Col 3:16-17 NASB

And whatever you do in word or deed, And whatever you do in word or deed,

do all in the name of the Lord Jesus do all in the name of the Lord Jesus

giving thanks through himgiving thanks through himto God the Fatherto God the Father

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Romans 12: 1,2 NRSVRomans 12: 1,2 NRSV

I appeal to you, therefore, brothers and I appeal to you, therefore, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual acceptable to God, which is your spiritual act of worship.act of worship.

Do not be conformed to this world, but Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may be able to minds, so that you may be able to discern what is the will of God discern what is the will of God −− what is what is good and acceptable and perfect. good and acceptable and perfect.

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I a__ to you, therefore, brothers and I a__ to you, therefore, brothers and sisters, by __________________, to present sisters, by __________________, to present your _____, as a ____ ____, holy and ____to your _____, as a ____ ____, holy and ____to God, which is your ________________________.God, which is your ________________________.

Do not be __________________, but be____ by Do not be __________________, but be____ by the ____________,so that you may be able the ____________,so that you may be able to discern w___ i_ to discern w___ i_

t_ w__ of G__, what is good and ____ and t_ w__ of G__, what is good and ____ and ____. ____.

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I appeal to you, therefore, brothers and I appeal to you, therefore, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual acceptable to God, which is your spiritual act of worship.act of worship.

Do not be conformed to this world, but Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may be able to minds, so that you may be able to discern what is the will of God discern what is the will of God −− what is what is good and acceptable and perfect. good and acceptable and perfect.

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Has the time for symbols passed?

Jesus and the Samaritan WomanHas the time for symbols passed?

Jesus and the Samaritan Woman

John 4:23John 4:23Yet a time is coming and has now Yet a time is coming and has now

come when the true worshipers come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in will worship the Father in spirit spirit and truthand truth, for they are the kind of , for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. worshipers the Father seeks.

God is S/spiritGod is S/spirit, and , and his worshipershis worshipers must worship in S/spirit and truthmust worship in S/spirit and truth..

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John MacArthur (True Worship)Has the time for symbols passed?

John MacArthur (True Worship)

MacArthur says, Yes:MacArthur says, Yes:JesusJesus [speaking to the Samaritan women] [speaking to the Samaritan women] was was not denying all the symbols…not denying all the symbols…He was telling her the time He was telling her the time was coming when was coming when all the all the symbols would pass awaysymbols would pass away, and , and that there would that there would not be a not be a needneed for a physical temple, for a physical temple, sacrifices, and priests…. sacrifices, and priests….

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Now there was nothing Now there was nothing wrong with the symbols, wrong with the symbols, they were just that…they were just that…just just proddersprodders of the mind— of the mind—symbols to cause His symbols to cause His people to worship. But in people to worship. But in the new covenant, the the new covenant, the symbols became reality, symbols became reality, and and went from the external went from the external to the internalto the internal..

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The New Covenant ended The New Covenant ended the ceremonial symbols the ceremonial symbols and the symbol of the and the symbol of the temple…Worship was temple…Worship was no no longer prodded by an longer prodded by an inward symbol, it became inward symbol, it became an inward realityan inward reality….….

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[Worship now occurs] [Worship now occurs] internally internally through the through the prompting of the Holy prompting of the Holy SpiritSpirit in the life of every in the life of every believer.believer.

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Response to

John MacArthur (True Worship)Response to

John MacArthur (True Worship) The symbols: not ended in heavenThe symbols: not ended in heaven

Altar, lampstands, incense, ark, etcAltar, lampstands, incense, ark, etc Jesus was silent about the symbolsJesus was silent about the symbols

Neither affirmed or denied their useNeither affirmed or denied their use Is worship inward & not outward?Is worship inward & not outward?

Jesus didn’t express it that way.Jesus didn’t express it that way. He said worship “must be in spirit”He said worship “must be in spirit”

Must be spiritual [Spirit] in nature? Must be spiritual [Spirit] in nature?

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Response to


John MacArthur (True Worship) The symbols: not ended in heavenThe symbols: not ended in heaven

Altar, lampstands, incense, etcAltar, lampstands, incense, etc Jesus was silent about the symbolsJesus was silent about the symbols

Neither affirmed or denied their useNeither affirmed or denied their use Is worship inward & not outward?Is worship inward & not outward?

Jesus didn’t express it that way.Jesus didn’t express it that way. He said worship “must be in spirit”He said worship “must be in spirit”

Must be spiritual [Spirit] in nature? Must be spiritual [Spirit] in nature? Symbols (right brained activity) can appeal to Symbols (right brained activity) can appeal to

the spirit as well as words.the spirit as well as words.

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Response to


John MacArthur (True Worship) Is there Is there no needno need for symbols for symbols

because the Spirit prompts us?because the Spirit prompts us?

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Response to



because the Spirit prompts us?because the Spirit prompts us? Why then, are symbols used in Heaven? Why then, are symbols used in Heaven?

The Spirit is there (even more fully?) yet The Spirit is there (even more fully?) yet heaven abounds with symbols.heaven abounds with symbols.

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Response to



because the Spirit prompts us?because the Spirit prompts us? Why then, are symbols used in Heaven? Why then, are symbols used in Heaven?

The Spirit is there (even more fully?) yet The Spirit is there (even more fully?) yet heaven abounds with symbols.heaven abounds with symbols.

The “need” for symbols is not the The “need” for symbols is not the efficacious type. Symbols do not save or efficacious type. Symbols do not save or posses merit.posses merit.

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Response to


John MacArthur (True Worship) Is there Is there no needno need for symbols because for symbols because

the Spirit prompts us?the Spirit prompts us? Why then, are symbols used in Heaven? The Why then, are symbols used in Heaven? The

Spirit is there (even more fully?) yet heaven Spirit is there (even more fully?) yet heaven abounds with symbols.abounds with symbols.

The “need” for symbols is not the efficacious The “need” for symbols is not the efficacious type. Symbols do not save or posses merit.type. Symbols do not save or posses merit.

God God chooseschooses to use symbols as vehicles of to use symbols as vehicles of communication? or, as historical communication? or, as historical identification?identification?

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Response to


John MacArthur (True Worship) The Creator is everywhere a The Creator is everywhere a

symbol-making, symbol-using God.symbol-making, symbol-using God.

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Response to



symbol-making, symbol-using God.symbol-making, symbol-using God. The Incarnation of Christ is the supreme The Incarnation of Christ is the supreme

symbol.symbol.

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Response to




symbol.symbol. Symbols provide a vehicle for joySymbols provide a vehicle for joy

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Response to




symbol.symbol. Symbols provide a vehicle for joySymbols provide a vehicle for joy The maker of all things beautiful will The maker of all things beautiful will

forever be the lover of light, color, sound, forever be the lover of light, color, sound, drama, and ceremony.drama, and ceremony.

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Response to




symbol.symbol. Symbols provide a vehicle for joySymbols provide a vehicle for joy The maker of all things beautiful will The maker of all things beautiful will

forever be the lover of light, color, sound, forever be the lover of light, color, sound, drama, and ceremony.drama, and ceremony.

In Genesis, he said it was “good.”In Genesis, he said it was “good.”

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Arthur W. Pink (Fundamentalist, 1923) Arthur W. Pink (Fundamentalist, 1923)

How does Pink employ the word “flesh”?How does Pink employ the word “flesh”? Does Pink equate the flesh, senses, physical Does Pink equate the flesh, senses, physical

materials with our lower nature?materials with our lower nature? Is the use of our senses & physical Is the use of our senses & physical

materials non-spiritual relative to worship? materials non-spiritual relative to worship? What is upsetting him?What is upsetting him?

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Attacks use of symbols & senses

Arthur W. Pink (Fundamentalist, 1923) Attacks use of symbols & senses

Arthur W. Pink (Fundamentalist, 1923) P1: Much of which is termed P1: Much of which is termed

“worship” today is “worship” today is fleshlyfleshly rather than spiritual, and is rather than spiritual, and is externalexternal and and spectacular, spectacular, rather than internal and rather than internal and reverential.reverential.

P2: Worship is the occupation P2: Worship is the occupation of the heart with a known God; of the heart with a known God; and everything which and everything which attractsattracts the flesh and its sense, the flesh and its sense, detractsdetracts from real worship….from real worship….

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Arthur W. Pink (Fundamentalist, 1923)

P3: What we are now P3: What we are now complaining about is church-complaining about is church-singing that is professional singing that is professional and spectacular, that and spectacular, that which which is of the is of the flesh flesh and renderedand rendered to please the ear of man….to please the ear of man….

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P4: P4: We cannot worship by We cannot worship by admiring grand architectureadmiring grand architecture, , by listening to the peals of by listening to the peals of a a costly organcostly organ or the anthems or the anthems of a of a highlyhighly trained choir. trained choir. We We cannot worship by cannot worship by gazing at gazing at pictures, smelling incense, pictures, smelling incense, counting of beads.counting of beads.

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P5: We P5: We cannot worship cannot worship with our eyes or ears, with our eyes or ears, noses or handsnoses or hands, for , for they they are all “flesh” are all “flesh” and not and not “spirit.”“spirit.”

P6:P6:True worship is True worship is decorous, quiet, decorous, quiet, reverential, occupying the reverential, occupying the worshipper with God worshipper with God himself.himself.

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Arthur W. Pink (Fundamentalist, 1923) Arthur W. Pink (Fundamentalist, 1923)

How does Pink employ the word “flesh”?How does Pink employ the word “flesh”? Does Pink equate the flesh, senses, physical Does Pink equate the flesh, senses, physical

materials with our lower nature?materials with our lower nature? Is the use of our senses & physical Is the use of our senses & physical

materials unspiritual? materials unspiritual? What is upsetting him?What is upsetting him?

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Let’s Look at 3 views of Body/Flesh

Which is Right, Proper? Let’s Look at 3 views of Body/Flesh

Which is Right, Proper?

Greek DualismGreek Dualism OT viewOT view NT and Pauline viewNT and Pauline view

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Greek Dualism: A False Dichotomy

Plotinus on the Body/Flesh Greek Dualism: A False Dichotomy

Plotinus on the Body/Flesh

Body as Body as impedimentimpediment to soul/spiritual to soul/spiritual Soul “infected” with “taint” of bodySoul “infected” with “taint” of body Body as “filth” and “mud”Body as “filth” and “mud” Plotinus/Gnosticism:Plotinus/Gnosticism:The nature of the body, in that it The nature of the body, in that it

partakes of partakes of mattermatter, is an , is an evilevil thing… a hindrance to the soul…thing… a hindrance to the soul…

(Influential on Western thought)(Influential on Western thought)

But God said it was “good” in GenesisBut God said it was “good” in Genesis

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Body/Flesh united with Soul

OT on the Body/Flesh Body/Flesh united with Soul

OT on the Body/Flesh

The flesh yearns for/sings to GodThe flesh yearns for/sings to GodMy soul thirsts for God, My soul thirsts for God, my my

flesh yearns for Youflesh yearns for You, in a dry , in a dry and weary land. (Ps. 63:1)and weary land. (Ps. 63:1)

Flesh and spirit are unitedFlesh and spirit are unitedMy heart My heart and my fleshand my flesh sing for sing for

joy to the living God (Ps joy to the living God (Ps 84:2)84:2)

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Body/Flesh united with Soul

NT on the Body/Flesh Body/Flesh united with Soul

NT on the Body/Flesh

Soul & Flesh interchangeableSoul & Flesh interchangeable Soul & Flesh stand for whole personSoul & Flesh stand for whole personPresent your bodies as a living Present your bodies as a living

sacrifice (Rom 12:1)sacrifice (Rom 12:1)The body is not for immorality, The body is not for immorality,

but for the Lord, and the Lord is but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body (I Cor 6:11)for the body (I Cor 6:11)

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Body/Flesh have several meanings

Paul on the Body/Flesh Body/Flesh have several meanings

Paul on the Body/Flesh

Mistaken view that Paul is anti-bodyMistaken view that Paul is anti-body

Body/Flesh has more than one meaningBody/Flesh has more than one meaning the material bodythe material body the sinful naturethe sinful nature the whole personthe whole person

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Flesh as material, physical bodyFlesh as material, physical body

… … that the life of Jesus may be that the life of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal manifested in our mortal flesh (2 Cor 4:11)flesh (2 Cor 4:11)

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Flesh as Sinful, CarnalFlesh as Sinful, CarnalDo not turn your freedom into an Do not turn your freedom into an

opportunity for the flesh (Gal opportunity for the flesh (Gal 5:13)5:13)

Fleshly (below) refers our sin-Fleshly (below) refers our sin-prone nature (jealously, strife), prone nature (jealously, strife), notnot our material body our material body

For since there is jealousy and For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not strife among you, are you not fleshly (I Cor 3:3)fleshly (I Cor 3:3)

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Flesh as whole person/all of humanityFlesh as whole person/all of humanity

By the works of the Law shall By the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified (Gal 2:16)no flesh be justified (Gal 2:16)

The whole person (the flesh) is fallen.The whole person (the flesh) is fallen.

It’s not just the body’s faultIt’s not just the body’s fault

If the body itself is evil, then Christ would If the body itself is evil, then Christ would have become tainted with evil by taking have become tainted with evil by taking on a body.on a body.

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Suspicious of materialsPink’s View Suspicious of materialsPink’s View Materials attract senses & distract worshipMaterials attract senses & distract worship Is incense distractive in heaven?Is incense distractive in heaven? Is architecture distractive in heaven?Is architecture distractive in heaven?Materials/body/senses are fleshlyMaterials/body/senses are fleshly Is Revelation worship fleshly?Is Revelation worship fleshly?

The spiritual and body/materials are separateThe spiritual and body/materials are separate Is the spiritual solely internal?Is the spiritual solely internal? Is the body/materials solely external? Is the body/materials solely external?

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Pink on Jesus View of Worship? Pink on Jesus View of Worship?

JesusJesusGod is S/spirit and those who God is S/spirit and those who

worship him must worship inworship him must worship inS/spirit and truth (John 4:24)S/spirit and truth (John 4:24)PinkPinkTrue worship is therefore True worship is therefore

internal, not externalinternal, not externalUpset with Catholic Church?Upset with Catholic Church?

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1. 2 Revelation Worship: Has the Time for Symbols Passed? chapter 19 People in the Presence of God...

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