3 8 61 ZUNGU

MR HAASBROEK: I will reach that s tage.

BY THE COURT: Well, I am just trying to work out whether,

when you say did you know, you see , I am not cert ain tha.t you

mean did he know generally as a reporter from what he heard

around from his contacts that people were fleeing th e country

or something or whether you are referring to the evidence in

this case .

NR HAASBROEK : No, no.

BY THE CDUllT: Are you referring on a general basis?

MR HAASBROEK: Yes, on a general basis.. (10)

BY THE COURT: On a general basis.. That there was talk in

the t ownship s about it. I think if you put it that way he may

be able to give you an answer. Ask him what tIle talk was.

That I knew, yes.

That there was talk in the townships about people fleeing

the country. -- There was general talk in the townships about it.

MH HAASBHOEK: Yes, and there were even newspaper reports to

that effect. -- This is COrrect.

And did you decide to tle lp t hese students to go o ut of

the country whenever an opportunity wou ld present itself? (20)

No.

You do not appr.ove of the White people's policies in this

country. I s that correc t ? -- Not all.

Where do you disagree with them as far as the White/Non­

White relations are co ncern e d ? -- The money, the salaries.

What i s wrong with that? -- Well in cases where one gets

people who . are equally ed ucated, equa lly qualified but getting

differences in their sa larie s .

Are you in favour of confro n tation between the Whites and

Blacks in tIlls co untry? -- Physical7

Plly s ica l conta c t. -- No , I am in favour of dialogue.

$0/ •••

(30)

3 86 2 ZUNGU

So you are actually in favour of a peaceful settlement.

That is correct.

Now why did you sing with the other accused that you were

going to shoot the Whites with a big gun? -- This is a son9,

it is not only being sung here. I have heard it being sung

outside.

But that song does not indicate that •• -- I further enjoy

singing it.

But you are fully aware of the words of that song, isn't

that 507 -- Yes. (l0)

And the words do not sound good for the \rJhlte man, isn't

that 507 -- Yes.

And you even sang words to the effect that the Boers are

dogs. -- That is correct.

Now if that is your approach, how would you then go about

to negotiate for a peaceful settlement? -- No, what one sings

does not necessarily mean that is his approach towards things,

it is Just singing.

But you sang together with all the other accused in this

case. -- That is so.

Arentt you just a group of PAC supporters or members of

the PAC? -- I am not, I do not know the others.

(20)

Do you know any of the others? -- You mean just knowing him

or being aware of his relationship with PAC?

Yes, the latter. -- The question is a person I knew to

have been a member of the PAC Ol~ who i~ presently a member or

a supporter of PAC?

A person who took part in the activities of the PAC. I

withdraw that. A person who was involved in the activities of

the PAC. -- A person I read of who had been involved. (30)

Is that all you know about that" -- Only what I l· ead of.

And/ •••

3 863 ZUNGU

And yo u and Victoria live together as man and wife. Is

that correct? That is so.

And were you good friends with each other? -- Wf'! were.

And are you still good friends with her? -- We are still.

Now, \lIhen Victoria was about to testify for the state, why

were you so anxious to get a legal adviser appointed for her?

-- This is because of the good friendship that exists between

her and me.

Old you want to prevent her. from testifying against you?

No. (10)

What was the purpose of the legal adviser? -- I wanted her

to be given legal advice not that she was not given legal

advice by Counsel for the state.

Yes, but you have not answered my question yet. -- Will

you please repeat the question?

Why did you want to appoint a legal adviser fo~ Victoria

before she testified here for the state? - - To be given legal

adVice.

Is that all? -- Yes.

The purpose was not in any way to influence her before (20)

she testified? -- NOt that was not.

Do you know of any reason why Victoria would land you into

trouble as far as the facts of this case are concerned? -- I do

not know any reason. There are some of the things she said here

about me which are the truth and certain things were not the

truth. I do not know what made her speak these untruths.

Can you remember what things were the untruth? Firstly

when she said on her return from Cape Town 511e told me everythi n g

And that these Mawela children left on a Sunday. That is all.

BY THE: COURT: It 15 untrue that she told you everythi-ng? (30)

That when she came from Cape Town she told me eveL-ything,

that/ •••

3 864 ZUNGU

that is not the truth.

That is not the truth. -- And furthermore that the Mawela

children left on a Sunday is also not true. This is about all.

MR liAASBROEK : What. did sh e tell you about her Cape Town visit?

BY THE COURT: I am not quite sure . Can I get it clear? He

says that what wa"s untrue, is that correct? -- Untrue.

Was that on her return from Cape Town she told me every­

thing? -- I do not know whether it has been wrongly interpreted.

The question was what is it that is not true and he said that

when she came back from Cape Town, she reported to me

everything, is not true .

(10 )

Yes, that is what I have got down . I am afraid I do not

understand . -- What I mean is s o me of the things she said here

about Cape Town, she did not tell me when she returned.

MR HAASBROEK: What did she in fact tell you about Cape Town'!

Just one other thing . There is one other thing I have for_

gotten. Asked by Mr Pitman whether we stayed in adjacent cells

in Bloemfontein, she denied this, whereas that is the truth.

Apart from that, what did she tell you about Cape Town?

On her return from Cape Town she reported to me that she (20)

had seen the people to whom· she had been sent in Cape Town .

BY THE; COURT: Were tllose her word s? -- These were her words.

MR HAASBROCK: What did she say? -- She further told me she

had seen Maud, the person whose address I had given her.

ACCUSED NO. 9 LEAVES THE COUH'fROOM I'OR A WHILE .

She further said to me she had seen the people to whom she had

been sent in Cape Town and that these people said that they have

children who ace worrying them 'who wanted to leave Cape Townj

that s ome of these c hildren had appeared in court, that they had

been granted bail and that they wanted to skip the bail. (30)

And that some of the c hildren wante d to leave Cape Town because

they/ •••

3 865 ZUNGU

they were being hQrassed by the police and that these children

are to go to Swaziland, but tlley did not have passports and

then s he started telling me generally what kind of a place

Cape Town is.

Anyt hin g else? -- And s he further sai d during the dis­

cussion in Cape Town •• (intervenes)

BY THE COURT: Did she say with whom she h ad these discussions?

Ve s, she mentioned Vo ndela and G1lost. She further said during

the discussion in Cape Town these people asked her if she knew

of a place in Johannesburg where the Cape Town Combi could (10)

bring the children so as to eh ange into another Combi in

Johannesburg. And that she further told them that she dld no·t

know of any such a place, but then I, bei ng emp loyed by the

newspaper, would possibly know of such a place. She further

just told me how Maud was keeping on and some other things that

do not have any relevance to this case.

MH HAASBROEK: Did she tell you that the students were going out

of the country for PAC tra ining ? -- No, slle did not.

For what reason did Vi c toria go to the Cape? -- She said

s he was taking money t o Cape Town. (20)

And did yo u ask her for. what purpose? -- Yes, I did ask

her.

Yes, and what did she tell you? -- She just said thi s money

she had been asked to hand over to one Vondela.

Is that all she said? -- Yes.

Now weren't you inquisitive to find out, this is your wife

Who goes down to the Cape . What was this money all about? -- I

was.

Yes? -- This was the only exp lana t i o n she gave me.

And were you sa ti sf ied with that? -- Well, s he had tile (30)

money, I could see the money a nd I was satisfied.

But/ •••

3 8GG ZUNGU

But it is a large sum of money, isn't that 507 -- Yes,

it was.

Why didn't you ask he r where she had got the money from?

-- I did ask her.

Yes, and what did s he tell you? -- She told me she met

a Vusi and a Vuyisile, those are the people from whom she got

this money.

Where did she meet them? -- In Swaziland.

Yes, and did s lle tell you why SllC had to take the money

to the Cape? -- The reason was she had been asked by those (10)

people to take the money to Cape Town.

But isn't it a bit strange that your wife should all of

a sudden go down to the Cape, a place unknown to her, with a

considerable alnount of money? -- She Ilad in the past carr ied

amounts of money far in excess of the amount she had at that

time ..

To the Cape? -- No, not the Cape. She had been to

Kimberley, she had been to Durban. I remember her last trip was

to a friend who stays in Zeerust.

And how much money did she take to Kimber l ey? -- She ( 20)

had taken money to an o ld man who sells soft goods. If 1 am

not mistaken it was an amount of R600.

And what did she have to do with the R600? -- The position

is there is a group of people who sell soft goods. They deliver

t hese goods to be sold , o ne of t hem would co l l ect t he money

later and take it to the others, not only herself. They changed

from one to the other.

What was the position of your wife in that organisation?

She wa s one of the sa le s people, one of the sales ladles.

She was a sales lady. And how much money had she taken (30)

to Durban? -- I do not remember how much it was, but it was

be tween/ .••

3 867 ZUNGU

betwee n RSOO a nd R6QO which s l1e had taken down. Some of the

money she had used t o purc ha se goods in Johannesburg which she

t ook down to Durban.

And did she go down to Du rban t o see a nybody there? -- She

had gone d o wn to Durban as a s aleslady to go a nd se ll to people .

To sell to people in Du rban? -- Yes .

BY THe COURT: Do you mean s he bought the goods in Johannesburg?

That i s cor r ect.

And took tll em to Durban. She did not take the mo ney to

D~rban7 -- Not the money. In Durban she met a person who

was also interested in se lling who joined her in the se lling

business. Subsequent to that she had to take mo ney to Durban

DO)

to this person for things s he had sold o n this person' s behalf.

MR HAASBROEK~ And how much was t ha t? -- It wa s about 200 or so.

And you mentioned something about Zeerust a l so . -- Yes, I

know of Zeerust. I h ave helped her with Zeeru st. We take

thing s t o Zeerust and to some other places to be so ld . She has

a sister in Zeeru st who sold some of t he things to be so l d .

We also take money to her for work done.

Thi s was all in conne c tion with he r work as a sales-

woman, isn't that so? -- This is correct .

Bu t s he did not go to Cape Town as a sa l eswoman. -- NO,

she did not.

And you knew t h at very welL -- Yes, I kne ..... that.

An d were n' t you suspicious then? -- No , I was not .

( 20 )

Why didn't you ask her questions about the amount of mo ney

she was taking to Cape Town? -- I did not suspect anything was

wro ng. I o nly thought the business was probably expanding.

BY THE' COURT: Do I understand you thought it was in co nnect ion

with her selling business? -- I did not think this wa s her (30)

money but what happened, wha 't I thought is that these bo y s s he

had/ •••

3 868 ZUNGU

had mentioned were also invol ved in the selling business and

that this was money they were sending home. Your Lordship will

remember. that there was evidence that one of the boys who was

seen in Swaziland and wl10 had alleged to have been in Johannes­

burg at my place, was from Cape Town.

WHo was that? -- The one referred to as Vuyisile.

Is that the person who was with you when the two Mawela

girls went off? -- That is so.

Is that the person she saw in Swaziland? -- That is so.

That is what she told me. (10)

MR HAASBRO~K: And did s he tell y.ou anything about people who

had to be assisted in Cape Town who were fleeing from the

courts or from the police? -- Yes, on her return from Cape Town

s.he did.

But not beforehand? -- Not befoce she went to Cape Town.

And s he then returned for Cape Town on about the 4th or

the 5th June. I s that correct?

BY THE COUHT: Did she say that there were boys who had to be

helped? -- No, what she sa id was that accused No.8 and 9 said

there were boys who were worrying them, who wanted to get (20 )

away from Cape Town.

That I understood but you had not use d the words that she

told you that they had wanted to be helped that you u sed now.

If helped in this case is being used t o help t h em away fe-om

Cape Town .

No, I just want to know what words s he used, that is all.

'fhat is what VictoL-ia used. -- No, I used the words:

boys who arc wo["r-ying them.

ther- e are

Yes , were those the words she used? -- These aL-e the words

she u sed. (30)

You say she did not say to you that there are boys who had

tol •••

3 869 ZUNGU

to be helped or who had been helped? -- No, she did not ..

MR HAASBROCK: After her retur n from Cape Town, and having

discussed the matter with you, did you tell her that it was

too dangerous and she should send a telegram to Vondela that

it was too dangerous? -- Yes, I did say that.

Why did you think it was so dangerous? -- Firstly here were

people who were skipping their bail. Secondly, tl1ese people

were leaving and were not in possession of passports. I did

not like that.

But pr.eviously you have helped a few girls who had (10)

also been in the same position more or less. -- No, I did not.

Didn't you he lp Lena's two sisters? -- No.

But they were in your com pany at one stage, isn't that 507

That is so .

And then eventually you decided at a late stage that you

were going to withdraw yout"self from this scheme. Isn't that so?

That is so .

But in the meantime these git"ls were with you. Is that

cOt"rect? According to your o wn evidence. -- That is correct.

And did you hat"bour them for a certain time? No.

But you eventually took them t o a man ca lled Boy. -- On

their request, yes.

(20)

So why did you help them? -- To get them away from my home.

And why didn't you take them back to their parents? They

wer e in the c ustody of their parents at th a t stage. -- Firstly

I did not know how they came to my place and I did not know

whet"e to take them to.

You co uld hav e asked them. -- Yes, they said they wanted

to go to Boy Nonyan i.

But didn ' t yo u ask them where their pat"ents had been (30)

stayi ng? -- I knew where their parents were . When they mentioned

that/ •• •

3 870 ZUNGU

that they had seen me at their parents' place, then I knew

whel"€ it was_

And you had been there to take photographs in the past.

That is so.

So you knew very well where to find the parents. -- That

is so.

And here you had two girls wanting to leave the country

for better education and they were without passports. Didn't

you make any contact with the parents in that regard to discuss

i t with them? I did not contact them.. (10)

Why not? When they mentioned that they wanted to go to

Swaziland , I thought their parents were aware of it.

Even if their intention was to leave the country without

a passport? -- Yes.

Why did you not advise them to go and get their passports'!

-- I was actually caught so unawares of these people. I did

not expect the persons would come.

But they told you that they were intending to leave the

country without passports. Isn't that so? Yes, they did.

And it was for a harmless purpose, to go for educct1on. ( 20)

Yes.

Anybody can get passports for his education in other

countries. -- That is 50.

~vhy didn't you follow that up by advising them first go and

get your passports and the n I wil l assist you? -- We l l, what

I thought immediately as a reporter was here was a good story.

Yes? Furtllermore I did not think of any other thing.

What is so good in the story? Isn'f it rather pathetic

that two girls weL~e about to leave the country without pass-

POL~ ts7 - - Ilecause of a certain reason . (30 )

v/hat was the r eason acc ording to you? -- The reason they

advanc ed/ •••

3 87.l ZUNGU

advanc~d was that they were being harassed by the police at

their home a nd that though the school was still not c lo sed in

Soweto but then they were not functioning, they were not getting

into class .

BY THE COURT: Was that in 19777 -- Yes •

. MR HAASBROEK: And then afterwards a number of boys also

arrived from Cape Town at your place. -- That is correct.

And they were also without passports . Yes .

And the reason they advanced wa s that they want.ed to go

out for education? -- I was not involved with them, I did (19)

not discuss it.

Why didn't you discuss anything with them? -- They had

not come to me.

And Vondela? He a l so did not come to me.

Did you tlave no discussion whatsoever with Vondela while

he was in Johannesburg? -- We only had a discussion at home, my

home.

Yes? -- Yes.

And I take it in the ordinary course of events you asked

them about their plans and what they were dOing, etc. (20)

Not that.

Then what did you discuss with him then?-- I met Vondela

for the first time at work. We asked one another how life was,

how it was going and when I met him subsequently at home I saw

the house full of people, I was surprised.

Yes, and you were not happy .. -- I was not happy.

l3ecause you knew those people were there without passports

and they wanted to skip the country. -- After discussion, yes.

Yes, that is what I am trying to get from you . And why

did you not adv i se them to go and get their passports (30)

first? -- I <ltd not discuss with these other people, the

c hlldt-en/ ......

3 87:' ZUNGU

children~

Who told you about the fact that they were skipping the

country, etc. , etc.? -- It just appeared to me, I just thought

these people were skipping.

What made you think that something like that was going on7

When I heard that Mncedisi wanted me to take these people to

Swaziland, it struck me that this was a case identical to the

other one I had received in the past.

Yes, and you did not chase them away from your home. -- I

did so. ( 10)

How? By removing them from my home.

But was t)1at not very dangerous in your view? Now you are

conveying them. -- It was dangerous removing them from my home'l

Yes. -- No, it was more dangerous to harbour them at my

house.

Well, the police could have caught you with them in your

vehicle;

happened.

they were fleeing the police. -- Yes, that could have

And you would have bee n in trouble with all of them. -- Yes.

And y et it did not occur to you that it was dangerous. (2)

-- I would have been able to explain how they came to be in my

vehicle.

In any event, and what did you say to them in order to

indicate to them that you did not want them there with you? -­

I did not discuss it with these people.

And Vondela? I told Vondela that I did not want to get

myself involved with anything.

And nobody Ilad told you in any even t about anything. No,

there was mention of this that I had to take these people to

S .... '<lziland. (30)

Who mentioned it? -- Mncedisi.

And/ •••

3 873 ZUNGU

And was Vondela present? -- Yes.

And were some of the scholars at all present? -- No.

Incidentally, on what day of the week did Victoria aL-rive

back from Cape Town? -- On a Sunday.

And when did you get petrol for the vehicle then, for the

Combi? -- I did not get petrol for the Combi.

Not then? -- No.

You instructed that petrol should be put into your Combi

on the previous occasion when the two girls were there. Is

that right? -- No, into the Beetle. (10)

Into the Beetle. Very well. And was petrol available on

Sundays, -- No.

So how did it work then? -- I have already explained . I

said this in evidence-in-chief that when Vicky says it was on

a Sunday then she is making a mistake.

And you testified that you went with Mncedisi and you came

back with two others. Sonwab~ was one of them . Is that correct?

Yes, I said so .

When did that happen actually? -- This was after we had a

discussion in the house, the discussion between myself,

Mncedisi and Vondela .

(20)

Yes, and you also returned with a second person. - - Yes,

it was Sonwaba and a person I knew to be Zwcni.

And then afterwards you decided to take these young people

to Zweni's place. -- Yes, it was Zweni's request that I take

these people to his parents' home.

And did you then realise that you were in fact actually

assIsting theln7 -- No, 1 was removing t!lem from my home. It

would have been alleged that I am hal~bouring these people.

1'HE COURT ADJOURNS POR TEA. (30)

THE/ • • •

3 87~ ZUNGU

THE COUllT RESUI<ES.

I<OFPAT ZUNGU: still under oath:

FURTHER .CROSS-£XAI<JNATION BY I<R HAAsnROEK: T ll~ last question

was more or less to the effect that you had taken these young

people to Zweni's place and you had left them there and then

I put it to you that you actually assisted them by doing that.

No, r deny that. This was not helping them in any way.

You say this was not helpin~ them? -- No, H was not.

But you took them to Zweni's place. -- Getting rid of them.

And this man Zwe ni is he the organiser of SASM7 -- (IO)

r do not knov.'.

And do you know whether he and Boy are great friends? -­

I did not know that.

You also testified that Victoria then came to the office

wi th No.8 and whom she then introduced and tllen you decided to

give the keys of the Combi over to her to put in some petrol.

That is so.

What day of the week was this? -- This was on a Wednesday.

And then you proceeded by stating that you wanted to put

pet.rol in -

"because I wanted to give the visitor

~ good time in Johannesburg."

Yes ..

Now who was this visi.tor that you ar.e refeJ:"ring to? -­

This was Vondela.

(20)

I am unable to understand that. You testified previously,

you said that you had become angry bec~use they had arrived there

at your place. -- Yes, I said so.

Now why was it necessary to give accused No. 8 a good time?

He was the man who actually brought t l' e young people to (30 )

your place, who was responsible for that. -- I did not know

at/ . ..

3 875 ZUNGU

at the time.

You did not know at the time? But yet. you were very sus­

picious~ -- Not at that time.

Where did you see h im for the first time together with the

young people? -- Only at home.

And was that before you had taken t hem to Zweni's p l ace?

This was before, yes.

Mncedisi discussed the matter with you about t llese young

people? -- I was present during the discussion.

Between who ? -- Between Mncedisi and Vondela. (10 )

Yes, and what was tllen actua l ly said? -- It was a gene ral

discussion, how they drove from - how they came along, whether

the Comb i did not give them any trouble.

Yes? -- And then Mncedisi suggested he proceed further in

this Combi from Cape Town.

And did Mncedisi say anythi ng about the persons of the

trip , of these young people? -- No.

Not a word? -- Not a word.

But you became so suspicious that you then eventually took

them to Zweni's place. -- Yes.

What made you so susp i Cious then? -- The fact that they

were getting to Swaziland.

Yes, what else? - - And that my Combi was to be used.

And wllo told you that? -- Mncedisi did .

And was Vondela there when he said tIl at? -- Yes.

(20)

And did you draw the inference then t hat these two people,

Vondela and Mncedisi were actually co l 'laborating by taking these

young people out of the country? -- What became obvious to me is

that t .hey came together, that they were both involved in this.

And yet you wanted to put in petrol because you wanted (3 0

to give the visitor.s a good time in Johannesburg.

oe·xplained/ •••

I have

3 87 6 ZUNGU

explained that the putting in of pe tro l and to e n tertain the

v i sitor was before I discovered t hat these children were at my

place.

And after h aving take n these people to Zweni ' s p lace , did

you return to your home? 'fes, I did.

Old you not want to get rid of these people? Why . did you

want to enterta in them? -- I do not understand the question

altogether.

Look, you returned to your home. Is that correct? -- I

returned back to my home. (10)

And while you were there at your home, did you have any

f urther discussions wit h Victor ia or anybody e ls e about this

matter? -- I had a di scuss i on with the people I have been h av ing

a discussion before.

WI10 were they? -- Mncedis i and Vondela.

BY THE COURT: Is that when you r eturned to your home after

going to Zweni? -- I had been to Zweni' s place o n two different

occasions. I we n t t here for the fi rst time when I went to fetc h

Zweni a nd the second time whe n I went there to drop the c h ildren .

Now the question is no t c l ear at what s tage I had this

discussion.

( 20 )

MI~ HAASBROEK: Havi ng dropped the chi l dren, did you return to

your home? -- Ye~ . I did.

And did you t he n have further diSCUssions there or con­

versations? -- No , til ere was nobody there.

Not eve n Victoria? -- Not even Victoria.

Now, you inferred t h at Vondela and Mncedisi were together

in the same thi ng . Did r understand you correctly? -- TI1at

is so. ·

And you were not happy about the wl lOle thing. -- That (30)

is so.

Why / •••

3877 ZUNGU

WilY did you decide then to put in petrol in your vehicle

in order to give Vondela a good time?

MR SKWEYIYA: f'1 ' Lord, with respect, I think my Learned Priend

is making a mistake.

MR HAASBROEK: I will not proceed with that then. And you then

testified further that you had stokvel parties. Is that correct:

-- I did so.

And you intended to take out No. 8 to these parties or to

one of those parties. That is so.

Did you have no reason whatsoever at that stage to be (10)

suspicious of No. 81 -- That is correct.

And is that even though Victoria had told you previously

that these people would come and you advised her that you did

not want them there? It was not explained to me when accused

No. 8 was brought to me that he was in the company of other

people.

BY THE COURT: Before - I think Counsel means when she came

back from Cape Town, did stle tell you that Vondela was going to

bring up people to your place? Yes.

She did say that1 This was when she told me that (20)

Vondela wanted a place in Johannesburg where they could change

Combis.

Yes, I want to know what her words were to you then, how

you first were brough.t into the picture. -- She told me that

she had said to Vondela that s he personally did not know of any

place but that her boy friend, which is in this case myself,

who is employed by TIle World newspaper, would possibly know of

a place.

Were those her words? -- Thes e were her words.

$0 do I understand that s he did not tell you that (30)

Vondela would be bringing these people t o your place? -- Vicky

said/ •••

3 878 ZU NGU

said that when Vondela comes with these people, they would

arrive at my place a nd then I would in turn take them to the

pl ace I ,know of ..

Now is this what Vicky told you? Were those her words? -­

These were Vicky's words.

Was that what she told you that s he had told Vondela

or that Vondela had told her? -- This i s correct. This is

what she told me she had said to Vondela.

Is tl1at when you said to her: I do not want anything to

do with this, it is too dangerous? This is correct, but (10)

not immedlately thereafter. After she had told me everything

about her going to cape Town, I said to her I do not want to get

involved in this thing, this thing is dangerous.

Old she say anything else about - what did you say when

she said to you: I told Vondela that when he comes, they ca n

come to your place, that is Moffat's place, and from there you

(Moffat) will show them another place, what did you say to her?

-- I told her 1 did not approve of that.

Yes , I understood that. That is a thing you did not want

to have anything to do with. That is so. ( 20 )

And is it then after -.did you Iwe a further discussion?

Did she say anything then whe n you said that? -- Without her

having said any other thing I instructed her to telegraph this

man that I do not want to be involved in this.

Mil HAASBROEK: Eventually you took them to Zweni ' s place and

after tt,at you made provision for petrol and then there was

this stokvel party. Is that correct?

BY THE COURT: No, no, I think he gave Vic~y the keys at his

offices and said go and put: petrol in and his idea then when

he had just met Vondela, it was then that he had thougt,t (3 0)

of the idea tt,at he would give Vondela a good time. That is

before/ •••

3 879 ZUNGU

before he had arr i ved of course at hi 5 home and fa unct thi 5

who l e conglomeration of people there . Is that co['rect? I am

not mi si nterpreting you? -- This is correct.

MR HAASBROEK: And then you testified more or less the follow­

i ng : I drove the Combi away with these young men. I took

them to the agreed place. When was that? -- I went to fetc tl

Zweni and Sonwaba, came back to my house and there we had a

discussion. The discussion was then between myself, Zwenl,

Sonwaba , Vondela and Mncedisi. I t was then agreed that I

take them away so I did. (0)

To whiCh destination? -- This was at Zweni's place.

BY THE COURT: When Vondela came up with Vicky to see you, do

I understand that you said nothing to him at al l about the

people or anything, you just discussed general subjects? -­

That is correct .

And I want it quite clear. Did you then, I understand,

not say to him well what arc you doing here, I sent you a

te legram not to come? -- Why I did not refer to the telegram was

because of the time, the length of time between his arrival

and the time the telegram was sent. (20)

I do not quite understand. What do you mean by that?

It was after I think a month and two weeks that the telegram

was written a nd when he arr ived, I thought it was a di ffere nt

case a l together, that it had nothing to do with the previous

arrangements ..

Now just can you tell me what were the words you used to

Vicky when you gave her the keys'? -- I gave her the keys and

said: go and put i n some petrol.

Did you tell Vondela that you were going to give him a

good time? Take him to a party or entertain him ? -- No, I (30)

did not a nd I intended it as a surprise, it was intended as

af • .. ..

3 880 ZUNGU

a surprise.

MR HAASBROEK; What happened to accused No.8 and Mncedisi

when you had delivered the young peop l e to the agreed p l ace of

Zweni? -- I left them at my home. I do not know what happened

to them there.

And then when you returned, you could not find them there.

Correct? -- That is correct.

BY THE COURT: Is Zweni's place also in Soweto? -- It is in

Soweto.

You and Vicky are in Zone? -- We are in Zone 9,

Meadowlands.

And Zweni7 -- At Mofola.

(jO)

That is not far from where you live. -- Not far, particu­

larly when one is driving, when one is in a car.

Mofola, haven ' t I heard that before? Isn ' t that there Lena

stays? In that area? -- In that area, yes.

MR HAASBROEK: Why did Mncedisi not accompany you to Zweni's

place? -- I said to them I was not going to take an overload

because the ca~ was full already. The Combi was full already.

Was it also accused No. 8's intention to accompany (20)

you before you told them that? -- I did not see accused No. 8

come to the Combi.

And could . you then take the entire load of people in yow.­

Combi or did you make other arra ngements? I could take the

whole load of t he youngsters.

Who remained behind when you complained about overloading

apart from Mncedisi"l -- Zweni, Vondela was in the yard and the

driver, Mazamanzi.

You drove the vcl,icle there? -- I drove the vehicle.

And did you know wl,at happened to them subsequently, to (30)

these young people? -- I do n~t know.

And/ .••

3 881 ZUNGU

And what happened to Vondelal -- r saw him arrive the

foll owi ng day. I saw h1m arrive at my p lace the followin g day_

And what conversation s did you have t he re? - - I did not

want to talk to t hem.

To t h em? Who were t h ey all together? -- Mazamanzi and

Vond e la.

Why did they come to your pl ace tllen? -- I do not know.

BY· THE: COURT: You s ay y o u did not want to talk to them. Why

was that ? -- Becau se of what happened the day before.

MR HAASBROCK : You even entertained accused No. 8 before (10)

that and Mazamanzi also. -- Well, that is o ur pr actice. We are

sitting and h avi ng a drink a nd somebody arrives there, he is

usually offered a glass .

But you wanted to e ntertai n th em , you took them to the

stokvel party , isn't that 507 -- No , that is not correct.

We ll, I wr ote down your evidence-in-chief:

II I int en d~d taking out accused No. 8

together with other persons. 1I

Ye s , t hat is what I intended doing.

But did it no t happen then? -- It did not happe n. (20)

And petrol was put into the Combi for e ntertainme nt purposes'.

That is so .

That i s to entertain accused No.8? -- That is so.

And what happe ned in that con nect i o n ? -- It was not a

success because I s ubsequen tly discovered there were t l) ese

youngsters there.

But did you take accused No. 8 aro und in your Comb i t o

e nter tai n thern? -- No, I did not .

Yo u testified t l, at you wanted it to be a sur pri se for him.

Yes, I wanted. (30)

Did you ne v er then surprise him? -- No, I did no t.

I-/hen / •••

3 882 ZUNGU

When did you find out tl1at it would not be proper for you

to e ntertain him ? -- At my house.

And how did it come about? After the discussion there.

So you then decided not to entertain these people. -- That

1s so.

Now about the first two students, the two g1r,1s.

BY THE: COURT: Just a moment. You went to a party yourself

that night though. Yes, I did.

What time did you get home? -- I did not come home that

ni g ht. (10)

You did not? -- No.

You went straight to your office from the party? -- It was

from the party tllat I went to the off ice.

You said you saw Vicky. You do not mean that you saw her

before you went to the party or before you went to your office.

Not befot-e I went to the office.

Then that is c leared up. I had a different impression

from two sentences you gave in evidence-in-chief.

r~H HAASBHOEK: You testified about the occasion when you had

been detained with cer tain students, at Modderbee. -- Yes. ( 20)

And there was one stud<;!nt with the name of Vusi, who became

a friend of your.s. -- That is so.

What is his surname? -- He did not tell me his surname.

He did not tell you his surname and he was a frie nd of

YOUl-5? -- Yes.

Is it not Vu si Ntseu? -- I do not know.

And did you in actual fact never find o ut his surname? -­

There were so many students that I did not ask their sur names ,

I did not take note of tl'cir sur names.

There is a Vu si Ntseu mentioned as a co- conspi rator (30)

in the state's list of co-c6nspirators. Do you remember that? --

I I . ..

3 883 ZUNGU

I saw these on tile charge-sheet.

Do you know that Vusi Ntseu? No.

Why did you associate only wittl this one student, Vusi7 -­

No, he was not the only student I got used to.

And what were the name s of the others? -- There was Themba.

BY THE COURT: Which Themba is that no w? We have had about three

Thembas. We have got one here , then we had Themba Mazibuko

and I think there was another one.

Mil HAASBROEK: Do you know if he is liarrison, this Themba1 -- I

do not know what his other name was. (10 )

BY THE COUHT: Anyway , it i s not No. 157 -- No.

And it is not Themba Mazibuko? -- No, not Themba Mazibuko.

MR HAASBRO~K: Alright, go on. -- There was Sipho, there wa s

Zwelltini, there was a Butheletso, a girl, Gladys, there was

a Martha, tllere Vias a Jabu and many others.

Very well. Then there is another matter whicll I want to

put to you. I wrote down here that you heard that Lena had

been arrested a nd you said that was newswor thy because she was

well known in t he field of advertising and beauty and you then

went to Lena ' s place, it was during the disturbances.

Yes.

And you asked for a photograph .. -- I did.

NOW, according to Lena s lle was arres ted o n the 2nd May,

1977. -- Ye s.

(20)

And is it t he n possible that you cou ld have been there at

the time that Y,ou described, at Lena's place, dur-ing the dis-

tu rba nces? Up to and including 1977 was still regarded as

the time of the riots in Soweto . There were many t hings still

happening there.

Didn't tIle riots cease more or les s i n the middle of (30)

19767 -- No.

until/ .•.

Z UNGU

Until when did the riots go on? -- Until the time of my

detention.

BY THE COURT: When did you see Lena then, you know, when you

took hec photo? Was it 1977 oc 1976? -- 1977.

Oh, it was 19771 -- 1977, yes.

It was 1977. -- 1977.

MR HAASBROEK: There is another matter, M'Lord, I just want to

point out to the witness.

BY THE COURT: It may be just - 1 may have just simply written

1976 because I assumed it was 1976. That is what I have got (10)

you see. In 1976 during the disturbances. But you say it was

actually 19 77. This was act ually In 1977.

MR HAASBROEK: Then you testified that on a cer t ain day:

"1 was at home and Vusi came along in

the company of a young man, Vuyisl1e"

on a certain Tuesday. ft:,nyway , it is not very "important. The

day when Vusi came there with Vuyisile. -- Yes, I sa id so.

And with the two girls. -- That is 50.

Now you testified t hat you did not know the surname of

Vusi. -- I did not. (20)

But this man Vuyisile 'vIas he a student from Cape 'fown?

So he was introduced to me.

As a student from Cape Town? -- That is so.

What was his surname? -- I was not told what his surname is.

Didn't you enquire about his surname? -- No.

NOW, these two girls, Sa lome and Kensanl , were they taken

out of the country s hortly after Lena ' s arrest or not? - - I do

not know.

You know nothing about that? -- No.

And after you had seen them for the last time, did you (30)

see Vusi and Vuyisi lc in South Africa1 -- No, I did not.

And/ •••

3 805 ZUNGU

And did you have any contac t with the OPC? -- No, I did

not.

When these two girls approached you, wa s it s hor tly

af ter the arrest of Lena? -- It was after L€na's arrest.

TilE COURT ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH.

3 88(. ZUNGU

TH~ COUR T RESUM~S AT 14h15 ON TH~ 19th FEBRUARY, 1979 .

MOFFAT ZUNGU : sti ll under o ath:

ACCUSED NO.7 AND 17 ARE EXCUSED.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HAASBROEK: How s hortly after

Lena's arrest did these two g1r ls come to see you? -- I think

it was about a week.

Old you know any official of t he BPe, the Black People's

Convention? -- I know the names of the off i cia ls.

Can you name a few? -- Steve Bika , the late Steve Biko.

There Is another o ne cal led M~ntata , I do not know what (10)

his first name is.

The question was asked whether you had any contacts with

the BPe a nd you denied that. -- Yes, I said so.

D.i,.d you have no con tact with these persons ? -- No, I did

not ..

How did i t come about that you knew of the ir positio n 1n

the BPe? -- As a newspaper man we have people who specialise on : I certain things and whe never a reporter ha s gone out on an , , , , assignment the n we know exact ly whe n he comes back who the ,

I official s are who have .bee n do ing what. ( 20)

! Now this Vuyisile who came to you in the company of Vusi

I and the two g i r Is, can you remember whether 11is surname was , , I perhaps Seland07 -- Hi s surname was not mentioned. ! I So it will not j og your memory if his sur name was perhaps

IDlova7 -- No, i t would not. , i And you testif ied that t ile per son who asked yOll in i I connection with these two gir l s to help them, was Vuyls1le. ! i Vuy1sile.

I He wa s a strange perso n to you. -- Yes, h e was a strange r

: to : , , , , , : , , , ,

me. (30) .

Didn't you fi nd it a bit extraordinary t hat this st r a nge

person/ •• •

3 887 ZUNGU

person would ask you to do a t hing lik e that and not your friend

Vusi? -- No , there was nothin g strange.

You also testified that you are un ab le to give us the

surname of your friend Vusi. -- I would not refer to him as a

fr iend of mine, he is a person I know and it is true that I do

not know his surname .

Now this man Boy where you had left the girls, you know

him, isn't th a t so? -- I did not know 1111n.

Did you and Boy not at o ne stage intend wrIting a book

entitled " Behi nd the Soweto U~re5t"1 -- No. (10 )

You say this Boy i s a complete stranger to you? -- It is so.

Why did you then take these two girls to a person who is

a stranger? - - It was suggested to me that I take them over

there , a nd I did 50.

Who suggested it? -- Vuylsile did.

For what re aso n did he ask you to take the girls to Boy

Nonyani? -- Because I had exp l ained to him that I was going away

1 on an assignment.

So you actually suggested that. -- No .

But you said ttlat Vuyisile sugges t ed that. -- Yes, ( 20 )

he did.

But "you also say that you actually fe lt t hat that had to be

done. I mentioned that i t was a plan of mine to get r id of

these people to go and say to them that I was going out on an

assignment and then that they were to be take n to Boy Nonyani's

, Pl ace was their suggestion. ,

! I

I , i , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

We ren't you afraid when tak ing the gir l s to Boy Nony a ni

that t Ile pa rents of the girl s would be very unhappy about that?

.- This i s o ne of the things I came to think of later becaus~

after the whole thing I sat and thought abou t things. (30 )

Why did you take them somewhere? Why didn't you j ust t e ll

these/ •••

I

3 888 ZUNGU

these people to leave you alone? -- I got rid of them by

taking them away from my ho use .

And you did that well knowing that you were running a risk.

-- I do not understand. A risk in what way?

Why didn't you ask Vuyisile to take them to Boy Nonyani? -­

They were waiting for me, my transport .

They were waiting for you? -- Yes.

Well why dIdn't you just indicate to them to take tllese

two girls away? -- I wanted to make sure that they have left

my house, which I did. (10)

You said that you had never taken them to Swazi l and. -- I

did not.

And then there was the occasion when you wanted to write a

good story about the whole situation relatIng to these two

girls. -- This is true.

And did you follow up what had happened to them since

their departure? -- No, I did not.

Why not? -- This is because the issue of the two girls

sort of became hot, became a hot cake.

Very well, I appreciate that, but it would Ilave made (20)

quite a good story, a very interestlng story to publlsh. -- No,

it would not.

But you said you thought that it would make a good story. -­

I thought so then.

And did you ever care to go and see their parents to ask

them what the girls had been writing to them in order to get

news about what had happened to them? -- , NO, I did not.

What did you make use of for a story tl1en, for a good story7

What did you use in order to compile a good story as you put it?

-- There are different materials mak ing a good story. (30)

Yes , but in connect ion with these two girls. -- I did not .

write/ •••

I

3 889 ZUNGU

write a story about them because I regarded that they are a

hot cake ..

But how did it come about that you changed your view? --

Because they did not have passports.

Is that the only reason? -- Yes.

And then you also testified about a man ca lled Chief. -- Yes.

And then you told these two girls tha t you had been given

an assignment. Is that correct? -- No, I told Vuyislle.

And that was actually a lie that you told, 1s that correct?

Yes, it was. (10)

And you told that particular lie for your own personal

expediency_ -- Yes.

And you are also now testi fying in a court. Would you tell

lies here to s ui t yourself and your own case? No.

What is the difference then between yout" position here as

a witness in the court and what you Ilad done tllere In connection

with these two girl 57 -- The difference would be the truth that

I am telling this Court.

So only because you are stating that it is the truth, then

it mu st be accepted as the truth? -- Yes, because what I (20)

am saying is the truth.

You also explained how hard you worked there at the ncws-

paper by rising early and attending a machine. Is that correct?

Yes.

Were you the only operator of that particular machine? --I t Yes ,

I I was.

I , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

Who operated the maclli ne during you~ absence from your

Offices? -- Yes , one Mr Brian Malt.

And who e lse? -- Alone.

And what about Leonard Klll~malo and Absalom Mnisi? -- They (30)

were learning at th e time.

II .. •

,:1

I I I i

I I I I

3 890 ZUNGU

I beg your pardon? -- They were letlrning how to operate the

machine.

They were learning. -- And I was teac /ling them how to do it.

And Solomo n Molots!? -- He was work ing as a darkroom

technici an.

Yes, but isn't he operating that machine up to the present

moment'? -- I taught him.

And when you wcr-c detained did you tell the police about

Chief and what happened to the two girls, etc., etc. , In

connection with that particular aspect of the cha rge ? (10)

When they asked me, yes, I did tell them, but it was after a long

time of my detention.

And you to ld them everything? -- Yes.

And what you told them was tile truth? -- It was the truth.

Now this group from Cape Town, did a nyone tell you about

them that they were going out to Swazi l and for the purpose of

education? -- Nobody dld •

You did not know a thing about that aspect? -- That is so.

When accused No.8, Vondela, met you in your office, did

you ask him why he had come to Johann e sburg? -- I did not (20 )

ask him.

He was a strange person as far as you were concerned ,

isn't that correct? -- Yes, he was a stranger and not my visitor.

And did you ask him when he had arrived? I did not.

And did you not ask him for what purpose he had come? --

No, he had not visited . me and I did not ask him.

Did h e never visit you, not at your , office? -- No, not me.

Not at your office? -- He was brought to my office to be

introduced.

Yes, I am referri ng to that occasion. Why was he (30)

introduced to you? For what purpose? -- I do not know.

Didn' t/ •.•

3891 ZUNGU

Didn't you care to find out? -- When I am at work I do not

Was there a conversation between the two of you? -- Yes.

About what? -- I was asking him about the s ituation then

in Cape Town as to whether it is not like Soweto.

Yes, what else? -- And about his life.

Yes? -- Then Vicky came along.

So at that stage you knew absolutely no thing about the

purpose of his arrival in Johannesburg? -- That 1s so.

And then eventually you took the Cape Town students (10)

away without No. 8's knowledge or the knowledge of Mncedisi.

Is that correct? -- No, it is not so.

Old they know that you were taking these people away to

a certain address? Yes, they did.

And you referred to it as an agreed place. -- Yes, by

this I meant a place that was agreed upon as where the cllildren

would be taken.

Now who agreed upon this particular place? -- Zweni agreed

that they be taken there.

And who suggested that? -- This was being discussed (20)

Until the time he agreed that he would accept the children.

Now, why did it happen t llat you took tile students witl1

your Combi and not t h e Combi from Cape Town? -- Vondela refused.

What reason did he give for his refusal? -- I heard him

I say to

i ..!?y THE

Mncedisi: I told you that this Combi ends up here.

COUHT: What di.d he mean by here? -- That is at the point

of their arrival in Johannesburg.

What was that? -- This was ~t my place.

t2R HAASBROf:.:K: But what was wrong with using the Combi for an

extra distance to get rid of these students? -- I do not

know .

Didn't/ ••• ,

(30) .

3892 ZUNGU

Didn't you ask any questions? -- I did not ask any

questions.

And you_ must have known that it was dangerous to convey

these children who had fled from the police and who had been

without passports; they wanted to go to Swaziland. Isn' t that

so? -- As I have a l ready said, my only purpose was to take t h em

away from my house, to remove them.

While you were discussing this matter of taking them to

Boy's place, was there any indication of what was to be done .

after they had reached the house of Boy? Sorry, Zweni I 5 (10)

place. Was there any discussion? -- Yes, it was said they

would stay there until they get further transport.

To where? -- Transport to Swaziland.

WllO said that? -- This was said by Mncedisi. He said

Zweni will keep th~se youths until we get further transport.

That Zweni will keep the children until they got further trans-

port.

And was any arrangement made as far as their further

expenses were concerned? -- Not in my presence.

And did anybody say what had to be arranged \dth (20)

regard to further transport for these students'] -- The only

thing I heard was when Mncedisl said until they got transport.

So Mncedlsi was the man who made al l the suggest i o n s? --

Yes.

And accused No.8? -- Accu sed No. 8 is a person who helped

me by getting the children removed from my house. lie said

they have got to see to it that the chiIdren do not s l eep

there at my place.

You also testified that you had been angry with accused

NO.8. -- I said so. ( 30)'

What was the reason for that? -- By bringing these ch i ldren

over/~~.

I

I

3 893 ZUNGU

over to my place.

After having offloaded tt,ese children at Zweni's place,

you returned to your own home, isn't that so? -- I did so, yes.

BY THE COURT: When you went to Zwenl's place, did you tell

No. 8 and your wife that you were going to come back and that

you were going to take No. 8 to a party? -- No, because the

thing of going to a party was out at that time.

MR HAASBROEK: And did you have only that one particular r~ason

to be angry with accused No. 87 -- What made me angry Is, as

I Ilave said, that these children had been brougllt, tlley (10)

were running away from the polIce, they dId not have passports

and that I had to use my Combi to take them to Swaziland.

And at what moment did you become angry with accused No. 87

When I heard a ll this, that these children were to be taken

by me to Swaziland,. I realised he wanted to get me into trOUble.

When you had off loaded these cl,ildren at Zweni's place,

! , did you return to your own place? -- Yes, I did. ! • I , , •

I • • • • !

I i •

! • • , • • • •

At that particular moment was it still your intention to

entertain Vondela, accused No. 87 -- No, I was so angry that

I cou ld have given him a blow. ( 20 )

And when you arrived there, they were not there any longer.

Isn't that so? -- rhey were no longer there.

Why were you then angry at that stage7 You wanted them

away right from the beginning and they had gone. -- Do you

mean on my arrival there?

Yes. -- I said I ~ould have hit him, given him a blOW,

because he wanted to put me into trouble ..

Did y6u tell that to him? -- No, he w~s not at home.

When did you tell that to him? -- I did not talk to him

thereaf ter. (30)

And at that particular stage after having off loaded

th~/ •••

3 894 ZUNGU

the child~en, when you arrived at your home, tllere was nobody.

That is so.

Weren'~ you pleased with the whole situation? -- No.

All the people had gone now. -- I should have hit them

first.

Why did you become so cross at that late stage? -- No, I

was not angry. I became angry immediately I saw this.

BY THE COURT: That is when you got to your house? -- That·

is so. ,

MR HAASBROEK: And when you had returned after disposing (10)

of the children and you found there was nobody in the house? --

I then left.

But you were not pleased. -- I \."a5 not pleased.

It 15 written down that when you returned after off loading

the children, you were actually angL· Y when you found that they

had left. --What I wanted to say is I was angry all the time

1 until I came back home to find they were not there.

! Not that

I I I

I

I I ! I

I I I

I became angry when I realised they were not there at home.

What did you say to them in order to make it known to them

that you were angry with them? -- But my action shows that (20 )

there was anger.

What actions? -- Firstly when I told them I did not want

to get involved in this thing and that my Combi would not be

Used.

And then eventually you used YOUL- Combi to take them to

zwenits place. -- It was not used as they wonted to take the

children to swaziland.

Well, I must put it to you that you are not telling the

truth to this Court and that you are very deeply involved in

this whole matter. -- I am telling the truth and I am not

inVOlved in any of this.

IlC-CXAM1NATION/ •••

(30) .

3 895 ZUNGU

R8-8XAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: Was there anything unusual

1n your taking peop l e away from your home? Was that the first

time you were do ing so that day'? -- It was not the first time.

And when you say Vuyisl1e came with the two girls to your

place, was Vusi anywhere there a1s07 -- Vusi was not there.

00 you have a passport? -- I do not have one.

At that time did you have a passport? -- I did not have

it then.

Have you ever seen Black people who work on the road, as

they dig the road they sometimes slng songs. Have you (10)

ever noticed that? Yes.

Can you think of any songs which they slng at t imes ? -­

Yes, there is even one I recorded.

Yes, what song is that? -- It goes thus: Abelungu goddamn

bas ibisa godju. Translated it would mean: The Whites are

damn devils, they ca ll us Jims.

And is this said openly in front of people passing by? -­

Yes, this is said in the presence of the Whites who are standing

by.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. (20)

"HE COURT ADJOURNS. THE COURT RESUHES •

.900DWELL MONI: sworn states: (Through Interpreter)

,£,XAMINATION BY MR SKWEYIYA: Where and when were you born? -­

I was born on the 6th April, 1956 in Cape Town.

And where did you do your schooling? -- I studied at the

Mseki Lower Primary Sc.hool f later proceeded to the Intshinga

Higher Primary School.

Up to ·what standard VJere you at 11 seki School? -- To s tan­

dard 2.

And at Intshlnga Schoo l ? -- Up to stand ard 6. (30) .

After completing standard 6 , which schoo l did you go to? -­

And/~ ~.

I 3 896 MONI

! And then I later went to the Sezcka lIigh School.

I Now which year was this ? -- 1973.

In 1976 were you a student in Cape Town? -- Yes, at the

Sezeka High School.

And what form or standard we1.-e you doing then? -- I was

doing form 5.

I An d did you attend school the who l e of that year? -- No,

not fOt" the whole of that year. hIe were not at schoo l for. the i I whole of that year.

I , i

I

For what reason? -- We came to realise that the (10)

chi ld ren in Soweto were busy dying in their struggle agai nst

Bantu Education. We were also against Bantu Educatio n and we

decided to do something.

Did you continue going to c lasse s? -- Yes, we were sti ll

attending classes when the uprising in Soweto started. We were

then busy with our examinations. The schools were la ter c losed.

BY THe COURT: Was this in August when they closed? -- In June.

MR SKWEYIYA: Do you mean for the June holidays? -- Yes, the

schoo ls were closed for the June holidays, re-opcned in July.

Did you go back to school? -- Yes, we \ .... e n t back to ( 20 )

schoO l. The uprising then start.ed in Cape Town on the 11th

August, 1976.

!?Y THE COURT' Is this in Cape TOw~ City or in Guguletu? -- In

Guguletu Town s hip .

!:!.R SKWEYlYA: And after the start of t ile upris ing in Cape Town

did t he students c ontinue going to sellool? -- We did go to

school though we dld not attend classes • .

What were you doing at school? -- We were holding Comrade

meetings.

Wh at type of meetin gs weLAC these? -- We were holding (30) .

meetings in connection with tile Bantu Educatio n we did not want "

and/ •••

I

3 897 MON!

and we were all as Comrades in these meetings voicing our

grievances against Bantu EdlJr~tio n.

I notice you keep on using the word 'Comrades'. Is there

any special connotation you attach to the word? -- Yes.

What does it mean to you? -- We as friends, we were united,

we had one goal, fighting one enemy, we called each other

Comrades.

Now at these meet ings which you have referred to, were

they confined to students of a specific institution? -- No,

they were open to all the sch'ools in Cape Town except the

lower pr imary.

(10)

The lower primary being from? -- From sub A to standard 2.

And insofar as discussi o ns are concer ned at these meetings,

was there any set pattern or any agenda followed? -- Wt1at we

were actually doing in these meetings is that everybody who

I had anything to say against Bantu Education would Just stand up

and say whatever he has to say because we we~e meeting in

connection with the Bantu Education.

And from your own personal knowledge from what time in

1976 until when were these meeti ngs 11Cld'i -- The meetings (20)

Were held from the time of the uprising and t lley were held at

different schools. We would move from one school to another

schoo l in these meetings and the schools we we~e using were

Sezeka , Langa High School and the I.D. Mkize and in some

Churches.

Now up to which year or month insofaL~ as you know, were

the se meeting s he ld? -- When I left in November, 19~6, the

meetings were still being held.

Left for where? -- For Soweto.

Are you able to remember the date on which you left

Cape Town for Soweto? -- No, but it was mid-November.

NOh'/ •••

(30) .

3 898 MONI

Now what made you to ••• On a Thursday.

What made you to l eave Ci'lpe Town? -- Fir's tly t I was being

sought for by the po lice . I was involved in the student

activities as a student.

BY TH E COUHT: Do you mean the upr 151ng57 -- During t he

uprisi ngs ..

No, what I want t o know is do you mean you were invo lved

in the uprisings, the riots? You sa id th e s tudent a ct ivit"ies.

I want to know wha t you meant. -- In the uprising. I h ad to ,

appear in court, this is the third reason, on the lOth (10)

December , 197 G ..

MR SKWEYIYA: And were you t h e only person \vl1o was suppose d to

appear o n that date in court? -- No, I had to appea r in court

together with Vuyisile Gaye.

No w, who e ls e "left Cape Town with you mid-November, 1976 7

Vuyisile Gaye, Sam and Nontando Balfour.

BY THE COURT: The four of you h ad to appear in cou rt? -- No,

these other peo ple I have men t ioned are the people who accom-

panied me when I l ef t Cape Town.

~R SKWEYIYA: Before the upri s in g in Cape Town on the ( 20)

11th Augu st , 19 76, which was you r normal and usual place of

abode? -- I was s taying with my sister in NY.3A, hous e No. 25,A.

I s that in Guguletu ? -- Guguletu, yes.

And after the uprisings did you continu e t o stay with your

Sister? -- The police started looking {or me within three days

of the uprising. I then left for Sma ll New York to s tay there.

I s this the Smal l New York whi c h Has been referred to by

the previous witness~s? -- Yes.

And at Smal l New York were you the o nl y person staying

there? -- No.

What work did t he ot ller peop l e who stayed at Small New

York! • • •

(30) .

I

3 899 MONI -York do? -- They were also students WIlD had been sought for by

the police, they were Comrades.

Did you continue staying at Small New York? -- I stayed 1n

Small New York until the police went to my sister, assaulted

her there with the intentionro have her go and point me out

or show them the place where I stayed.

MR ACKERMANN: MILord, I object to that hearsay evidence.

MR SKWEYIYA: Were you present when that happened? -- My sister

came to me in the morning at 05hOO and reported to me.

Well, that is hearsay. 'Anyway t when did you l eave? (10)

When did you stop staying at Small New York? -- Until the day

when my sister came and reported to me.

Ivhere is Sma ll New York 51 tuated in Cape Town? -- It is in

Nyanga East at a place known as crossroads.

Is there a ny special reason why it was referred to as

Small New York? -- This was the term used by the Comrades ..

What I want to know 1S t is there any special reason you

know of that tlley had to refer to t llat particular spot as Small

New York? -- No.

Rigl1t, you left Small New York and where did you go

and stay after that? -- I went to stay with one Madoda in

Langa Township in the hostel ..

Why did you go and stay at the hostel? -- Because I was

trying to get away from the police who were look ing for me.

(20)

For how long did you stay there? -- I stayed in the hostel

for about two weeks ..

And then what happe ned thereafteri -- I later went to stay

I With Vuyisile Gaye at No ntando 's home . I 1 Who else was staying there at this place? -- Jeffrey : l Mamphuta.

I 1 Who else?

I

(30)

Peyi, Michael Memane - he is known as Bra

~1ike/ •••

3 900 MONI

Mike.

Now these people whose n ames you have mentioned, what

was their occupation? -- They we re all Comrades.

BY TH E COUHT: Their occ upation, I see. -- Students.

Were they all fleeing from the police? -- Yes, they were.

MR SKWEYIYA: Did ·yoy have reason on any occas ion to complain

formally to the authorities about the educat ion which you did

not want ? -- Yes.

Who did you complain to? -- Mr Owen, the reglonal director

of Bantu Education. He was in the company of Mr Mitchell, (10)

a White man.

And wheL-e did you meet them? -- We met them at the 1.0.

Mkize Secondar y School.

Was thi s at a public meeting, in other words a meeting o f

stude nts where these gentlemen were present? -- Yes, thi s was

in a publ i c meeting at the 1. 0. Mkize.

How did these two gentl eme n come t. o att.e nd t Ill s meeting? --

According t o o u r information Mr Owe n •• (int.ervenes)

Mr Owen had met certain teachers before then? -- Ye s .

And then dld anyth i ng happen as a resu lt of that ( 20 )

meeti ng ? We asked mini s t ers of r e ligion, Bshop Maqc uele nge

and No ngezl Guma t.o go to Mr Owen and ask him to c ome and see

Us In a publi c meeting. We were not prepared to go to him in

a small number as he wanted us to do.

Was this meet ing then held? -- Yes.

Did you voice a complaint? -- Yes, we did.

Di d you tell Dr Owen and Mr Mitchel l what your attitude was

towards Bantu Education? -- Yes, we did.

Was there a ny chan ge af tel~ - did you go to school there-

after? -- No , we just went to schoo l to ho ld our meeting s . ( ~O )

Before you left Cape Town were you at a meeting with Vuyisilr

Gaye/ •••

Collection Number: AD2021 SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trials 1958-1982 PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg ©2012

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