Web view13 Rory Martin, copied to Mat McAllum. Who is Rory Martin? 14 ... 30 is not the word, but at...

ROYAL COMMISSION INTO TRADE UNION GOVERNANCE AND CORRUPTION

Brisbane Magistrates Court Level 4, 363 George Street, Brisbane, QLD, 4000

On Tuesday, 15 September 2015 at 9.30am (Day 2)

CFMEU QLD

Before the Commissioner: The Hon. John Dyson Heydon AC QC

Counsel Assisting: Ms S McNaughton SC and Mr M Elliott

Instructed by: Minter Ellison, Solicitors

.15/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 153 Transcript produced by DTI

1 <DANIEL IAN GREENLAND, on former affirmation: [9.30am] 2 3 <EXAMINATION BY MS McNAUGHTON continuing: 4 5 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton? 6 7 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you, Commissioner. 8 9 Q. Mr Greenland, hopefully not too much longer today. 10 Could you please have made available to you volume 2 of the 11 Cornubia house MFI-1. 12 13 THE COMMISSIONER: Just while that is coming, 14 Mr Greenland, you will probably appreciate what I am about 15 to say, but you are still bound by the affirmation you took 16 yesterday. 17 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, Commissioner. 19 20 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Could you please turn to page 627 21 again, which we looked at yesterday. I just want to ask 22 you a few more questions about that page before we move on. 23 In relation to variation 4, item 21, which is both "Mat's 24 joint $3,800" and "Cornubia #1, $7,865", the "Approved" 25 column says $8,465. Can you indicate how that figure of 26 $8,465 was reached? 27 A. Not that I can recall. Obviously it's less than the 28 combination of those two. Yes, I can't remember how that 29 figure was reached in itself. 30 31 Q. What was "Mat's joint"? 32 A. That would have been some light fittings we supplied 33 to Mat. 34 35 Q. For his personal dwelling? 36 A. I believe so, yes. 37 38 Q. And you didn't charge him for it? 39 A. It doesn't look like all of it in that column, no. 40 41 Q. So of that $8,465, are you able to assist with what 42 portion belonged to the Cornubia portion and what is Mat's 43 joint? 44 A. I don't - guessing, it would be all of the Cornubia 45 and a portion of the Mat one. 46 47 Q. In relation to the box on the right-hand side,

.15/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 154 D I GREENLAND (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI

1 percentage calculator for Cornubia #2, that $12,888.60 2 figure in green matches the total of those green figures in 3 the main table. Do you recall that? 4 A. Vaguely. 5 6 Q. What were you doing in doing that percentage 7 calculator for Cornubia #2? 8 A. It would have been spreading the costs of the second 9 account. 10 11 Q. You hadn't, of course, received the second account as 12 at the time you prepared this table, had you? 13 A. I can't say. I would have thought I would have had 14 it, but I can't say. 15 16 Q. We'll come to it in due course. 17 A. Mmm. 18 19 Q. The $7,865 against Cornubia #1 is the same figure, if 20 you'd accept from me, of the total of those reddish 21 brownish figures against Cornubia #2, so they come to 22 $7,865 as well. Do you recall how you decided to spread 23 them out in that way? 24 A. No. 25 26 Q. For example, for the green column, where it says 27 $636.02, you've put against that a portion of the Cornubia 28 amount of $388.12; then for the $3,324.79, you've put 29 $2,028.88. Can you see a relative proportion of each of 30 those figures? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Did you do it deliberately for that reason, so one 34 figure wouldn't be overly inflated? 35 A. More just a proportional thread; the bigger it is, the 36 more it would recover. 37 38 Q. But is that because it wouldn't stand out too much? 39 A. No. 40 41 Q. For example, just for simplicity, why didn't you put 42 all of it against the $636.02, why did you not add $7,865 43 to variation 10, for example? 44 A. Oh, I can only assume I was asked to divide it across, 45 but I can't say exactly. 46 47 Q. And also another question in relation to that page,


1 before we leave it, down the bottom under "Note/Reminders" 2 you've got: 3 4 Darryl Gabagas - Security & GPOs etc 5 6 Cornubia claim #2 7 8 Cornubia lighting fixtures 9 10 Can you recall what those items are about? You don't need 11 to address the Darryl Gabagas one, but the other two? 12 A. At one stage I think we were asked to maybe look at 13 supplying those, but it didn't eventuate. 14 15 Q. It definitely didn't eventuate? 16 A. Not that I can recall, no. 17 18 Q. You didn't supply any lighting fixtures? 19 A. I don't think so, no. 20 21 Q. Could I now ask you, please, to turn to page 677 in 22 the same volume. That's an email from yourself to 23 Mr McAllum: 24 25 Hi Mat, 26 27 Please see attached data sheet for lights 28 proposed. 29 30 Please enter the quantities of lights 31 required into the spread sheet & return to 32 me. 33 34 Behind that email there are a whole range of KME Services 35 documents with various, it would appear to be, lighting 36 items, would you agree, right through to, I think, 698-18, 37 and at page 698 itself, if you can find that in the middle 38 of those pages - it is also up on the screen on your left, 39 if that's of assistance - there is what appears to be a 40 spreadsheet and it's got the "Quantity" column empty. Is 41 that the spreadsheet you are talking about in your email? 42 A. Yes, I believe so. 43 44 Q. So, are you saying that even though that was sent 45 through, it was never acted upon? 46 A. No, not that I can recall. 47


1 Q. If you can put that volume to one side now and if you 2 could please be given volume 3. Could you please turn to 3 page 942. Do you see there an email from you to Mr McAllum 4 of 15 August 2013: 5 6 Subject: Updated pad costs 7 8 And you've got there as attachments what would appear to be 9 Pad Variation 6, a pdf document, Pad Variation 7, a pdf 10 document, a Pad r1.xlsx document and the job 2062.pdf 11 document. Do you see that? 12 13 THE COMMISSIONER: You said 6 and 7. It's actually 16 and 14 17, or am I wrong? 15 16 MS McNAUGHTON: I beg your pardon, I said that 17 incorrectly. Thank you, Commissioner. 18 19 Q. Can you recall what they are about? 20 A. They would have been those variations. 21 22 Q. Can you just look at those. At page 943, do you see 23 there a document which in the "Summary" section says 24 Variation 16, "BCF layout changes" and you've got various 25 items above in the "Description" and it comes to, without 26 GST, $6,938.65? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. Then over the page at page 944, you've got further 30 detail for variation 16; is that right? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Again, we see that ex-GST figure of $6,938.65. Over 34 at page 945, do you see a variation 17 document? The 35 summary is "Community services changes", an ex-GST figure 36 of $5,504.42, with further detail over at page 946. Do you 37 say they're all genuine charges for work that you did for 38 Mirvac on the Pad 2 site? 39 A. Yes, I believe so. 40 41 Q. Can you please go to page 947. Do you see on that 42 document there is some familiar format, but there are some 43 extra matters. The second last two lines of the table, 44 variation 16, is referred to as "Cornubia fixtures", as is 45 variation 17, and then in that column for item costs you've 46 got $2,500 for each. You've got a different figure under 47 the KME cost and then you've got, in the final column, the


1 two totals that we have seen as the ex-GST figures for 2 variation 16 and variation 17. Do you still say that those 3 figures were entirely relating to genuine work you did on 4 the Mirvac Pad 2 site? 5 A. From the pricing schedule on the back of the 6 variations, they look right, yes. 7 8 Q. Why do they say "Cornubia fixtures" on this document, 9 page 947? 10 A. I don't really remember those workings. 11 12 Q. Is this your document at page 947? 13 A. I believe so, yes. 14 15 Q. No-one else prepared it? 16 A. They may have had input, but I can't remember exactly. 17 It's a long time ago. 18 19 Q. In relation to the Cornubia fixtures additions to the 20 document that we've seen an earlier version of, is it the 21 case that you put those items in? 22 A. Possibly. Yeah. 23 24 Q. Who else would have? You only said, "Possibly". Who 25 else would have? 26 A. Well, I would have put them in - yeah. 27 28 Q. And did they relate to fixtures that you provided for 29 Cornubia or other work in relation to Cornubia? 30 A. It may have been proposed at the time, but I don't 31 think it eventuated. 32 33 Q. Did you charge those totals of $6,938.65 and $5,504.42 34 to Mirvac? 35 A. To the best of my memory, I think we did. 36 37 Q. Well, did those figures include $2,500, in each of 38 those cases, that did not reflect genuine work that was 39 done for Mirvac on Pad 2? 40 A. I'm not sure. The costs of those works might have 41 taken over those figures. 42 43 Q. What does that mean? 44 A. At the time of doing the variations, I'd say it took 45 more than what was quoted or estimated to do it. 46 47 Q. So you are saying it was genuine work that you


1 initially underquoted for, and you had to charge more than 2 you'd originally quoted for, is that what you're saying? 3 A. To the best of my memory. 4 5 Q. Why on page 947 are there the words "Cornubia 6 fixtures" against variation 16 and variation 17 which, 7 based on your previous formatting, would indicate that 8 $2,500 in each of those cases relates to work or items 9 associated with Cornubia? 10 A. To my memory, I was probably asked to make an 11 allowance for those. 12 13 Q. But you kept it in there, didn't you? 14 A. On the cost tracker, yes. 15 16 Q. But also in the invoice that you submitted to Mirvac, 17 didn't you? 18 A. Yes, if those values carried through. 19 20 Q. So does that mean that you have charged Mirvac for 21 work that you did not perform or items that you did not 22 supply to Mirvac? 23 A. I don't believe so. Again, if the cost of actually 24 doing those variations took over those figures, we'd just 25 be recovering our cost. 26 27 Q. What makes you say that, because there's nothing on 28 this document at page 947 that indicates that? 29 A. Because we never purchased the lights, so -- 30 31 Q. You have a clear recollection of that, do you? 32 A. Yeah. I don't remember ever buying the lights. 33 34 Q. Does that mean you didn't buy them or you just can't 35 remember it? 36 A. I don't think we bought them. 37 38 Q. You don't think so. Does that mean you didn't or are 39 you just not sure? 40 A. Yeah, again, it was a long time ago. To the best of 41 my memory, I don't remember buying the lights. 42 43 Q. Why is it that those figures have made their way 44 through to a final invoice to Mirvac? 45 A. I would say it's to cover our costs on those 46 variations. 47


1 Q. Is that just an excuse you're trying to make up to 2 explain an awkward situation now? 3 A. I'm not - to be honest, I can't recall. 4 5 Q. Can I now ask you just to turn to pages 949 and 950 6 where variation 16 and variation 17 appear in that 7 Customer Job No. 2062 document. At the bottom of page 949, 8 do you see there the $6,938.65 figure, and do you see over 9 the page the variation 17 figure, $5,504.42, which matches 10 those figures we saw at page 947? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. And that flowed through to an invoice you have 14 provided to Natalie Croghan of Mirvac; yes? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Can I ask you please to turn to page 1015-6 in this 18 same volume. Is that a document that you recognise? 19 A. I don't work with our accounts software but that looks 20 like it. 21 22 Q. On the previous page, 1015-5, do you see there a Wall 23 to Wall Electrical tax invoice dated 11 November 2013, 24 which says, as part of its "Description", "2nd and final 25 claim", $7,340 ex-GST or $8,074 with the GST? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. Do you see from that that the second of the Wall to 29 Wall Electrical claims was made after you had included what 30 would appear to be some sort of an arrangement for covering 31 the second claim, even though you had not yet received it? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. Could you now put that document away, that folder, and 35 just go now to volume 5 and right towards the end of it, if 36 I can just indicate to you, that the whole of the last tab 37 - there should be a purple tab there - is just a set of 38 documents in relation to your quote and invoices, and the 39 like, but I'm not going to take you through all of them, 40 you will be relieved to hear. Could I ask you to go to 41 page 1795-1. Do you see there a tax invoice called 42 "Progress Claim No.6"? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. It includes variation 16 and variation 17 and those 46 figures we have seen before? 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. Do you understand that you submitted that tax invoice 3 through to Mirvac? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. Could I ask you to look back at 1794. Do you see 7 there - it is not your document - what appears to be an 8 approval in relation to your invoice? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Do you understand that everything you invoiced to 12 Mirvac was in fact paid? 13 A. That's correct. 14 15 Q. At any time, sir, did you ever pass any sort of 16 personal gratuity to Mr McAllum? 17 A. No. 18 19 Q. When Mr McAllum asked you to include these additional 20 costs and put it into your invoices that you were preparing 21 for Mirvac, why did you do it? 22 A. To cover our costs of the extras they asked us to do. 23 24 Q. Even though you knew that they weren't works done for 25 Mirvac? 26 A. At the time it was for Mirvac, yes. 27 28 Q. It was for Mirvac? 29 A. Yeah. Well, to my knowledge it was for Mirvac. 30 31 Q. You indicated earlier that you were doing it for 32 customer relations purposes? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. So you felt that that was a benefit to Klenner Murphy 36 that you were doing it? 37 A. Oh, only a networking connection. 38 39 Q. Well, you decided to do it so you must have thought 40 there was some benefit in doing it? 41 A. Only to please our client. 42 43 Q. That's a benefit? 44 A. It's not - well, I don't see how it's a benefit. 45 We've all got to please our customers. 46 47 Q. Why do you need to please customers in that particular


1 fashion? 2 A. Just doing what we were asked to do. 3 4 Q. Even though it wasn't strictly legitimate? 5 A. I was just following instructions from our client. 6 7 Q. Did you ask to speak to anyone else within Mirvac to 8 see if that was an appropriate thing to do? 9 A. No. 10 11 Q. Did you talk about it at any time with Ms Croghan? 12 A. No, not that I can recall. 13 14 Q. Can you recall whether or not she made any queries of 15 you in relation to any items that you submitted? 16 A. Oh, not that I can remember. 17 18 Q. When you spoke to Mr McAllum at any time in relation 19 to the Cornubia job, was anyone else ever present? 20 A. Possibly, but I can't - I can't recall, yes. 21 22 Q. Do you have a business partner? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. When you were negotiating for work with Mirvac, did 26 you always do it by yourself or did you do it in the 27 presence of your business partner? 28 A. These jobs, it was by myself. 29 30 Q. Have you spoken to Mr McAllum since? Well, for 31 example, in 2015? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. When did you do that? 35 A. I'm trying to remember if that was - if he was at - 36 looking after the R&A then but more recently it was just 37 before the police came to take statements. 38 39 Q. Who initiated the discussion between you and him? 40 A. I got a phone call from Mat. 41 42 Q. What did he say? 43 A. He asked if I'd been contacted by the police yet. 44 45 Q. What else did he say? 46 A. He mentioned that they had the Wall to Wall invoices 47 and information.


1 2 Q. What did you say? 3 A. "I don't remember that. I'll have to go back and have 4 a look." 5 6 Q. Did he say anything else about the Wall to Wall 7 invoices and information? 8 A. No, not that I can recall. 9 10 Q. Didn't you say, "Well, why on earth do you care about 11 that?"? 12 A. No. 13 14 Q. How long was it before that phone call that you had 15 spoken to him? 16 A. Before that point, it would have been when I was - we 17 were pricing some other work for him but I can't 18 remember -- 19 20 Q. 2013 or 2014? 21 A. It might have been - I can't remember if it was late 22 2014 or early 2015. 23 24 Q. You were pricing work for him in his current position; 25 is that right? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. He no longer worked for Mirvac? 29 A. No. 30 31 Q. He had invited you to price work? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. And you did price work? 35 A. Yes, we did. 36 37 Q. Did you successfully get that work? 38 A. No. 39 40 Q. And then he rang you before, I think you said, the 41 police contacted you and asked you about the Wall to Wall 42 invoices and information and you say you had no further 43 discussion about that? 44 A. I'd have to say - yeah, I just had to go and have a 45 look. I said, "I'm not sure. I don't remember those 46 guys." 47


1 Q. Is it -- 2 A. I wasn't sure whether it was something else he might 3 have asked us to do and we didn't do or - yeah. 4 5 Q. Did it alert you to any issue that you had? Were you 6 worried about his inquiry? 7 A. Oh, I was more worried for Mat at the time. 8 9 Q. Why? 10 A. Because - yeah, all this, yeah. 11 12 Q. Well, what does that mean? 13 A. Obviously, Mat's not at Mirvac anymore and I was - 14 yeah. 15 16 Q. It means something to you, but can you explain what 17 you mean? 18 A. Oh, it was just a surprise really. 19 20 Q. You said you were more worried for Mat at the time, 21 that is, when he rang you - yes? 22 A. Mmm-hmm. 23 24 Q. Why were you worried for Mat? 25 A. Oh, I just wasn't sure what he - what position he got 26 himself into or - yeah. 27 28 Q. You earlier had said to the Commission that your 29 understanding when you were dealing with him whilst he was 30 at Mirvac was that you were doing a project for Mirvac? 31 A. At the time, yes. 32 33 Q. Why were you then worried, when he rang you, for Mat? 34 A. Obviously he's not with Mirvac anymore and I'm not 35 sure on what terms he left with and what - what he'd done 36 in his capacity at the time. 37 38 Q. When you were dealing with Mr McAllum in relation to 39 the Cornubia matters, were you told by him to hide the cost 40 of Cornubia or not? 41 A. No. 42 43 Q. So you were not told by him to keep the arrangement 44 secret? 45 A. No. 46 47 Q. Are you sure about that?


1 A. Yes. To the best I can remember, I don't remember 2 ever being told to keep it quiet, yes. 3 4 Q. Why were you worried when he rang you? 5 A. Again, because he's not with Mirvac anymore and I'm 6 not sure what terms he left on and what - what 7 circumstances it would be in regard to, yeah. 8 9 Q. Did you at any stage find out whose house it was that 10 the work had been done on? 11 A. Only when the police started investigating. 12 13 Q. Not before then? 14 A. No. 15 16 MS McNAUGHTON: They are my questions. Thank you, 17 Commissioner. 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 20 21 Q. Mr Greenland, some of the people represented here may 22 wish to ask you further questions. If they do, that will 23 take place on Friday and you will be notified by the 24 solicitors of the time that you should come, but for now 25 you can leave the witness box, thank you very much, and the 26 hearing room too. 27 28 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 29 30 THE COMMISSIONER: We now have Mr Nicoll, is it? 31 32 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. 33 34 MR EVANS: May I be excused, Commissioner? 35 36 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you for your attendance. 37 38 MS McNAUGHTON: I call Lucas Nicoll. 39 40 <LUCAS BRENT NICOLL, sworn: [10.04am] 41 42 <EXAMINATION BY MS McNAUGHTON: 43 44 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Can you please tell the Commission 45 your full name? 46 A. Lucas Brent Nicoll. 47

.15/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 165 L B NICOLL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. Your occupation? 2 A. Director of Nicoll Industries. 3 4 Q. And you're a resident of Queensland? 5 A. Correct. 6 7 Q. What does Nicoll Industries do? 8 A. Plumbing, drainage and gas installations. 9 10 Q. How long has your company been in operation? 11 A. Approximately 11 to 12 years. 12 13 Q. Do you normally do any particular type of work within 14 the industry? Commercial or domestic or -- 15 A. All aspects. 16 17 Q. Do you have any particular proportion of work? 18 A. Currently, we have moved away from commercial 19 altogether. We only do domestic, maintenance and some 20 shop-fitting. 21 22 Q. In 2013, what was the position? 23 A. In commercial, it would have made up 70 per cent. 24 25 Q. Why has it changed? 26 A. I don't enjoy the commercial industry. I don't enjoy 27 having 10 per cent of my profit held in retention. It's 28 hard to make money, it's stressful, and, to be quite frank, 29 I don't want anything to do with it. 30 31 Q. You know a person called Mat McAllum? 32 A. Correct. 33 34 Q. When did you first meet him? 35 A. Look, it would have been somewhere around 2000, 36 working for Mirvac. He was a cadet at the Arbour on Grey 37 project. 38 39 Q. Did you deal with him in a business sense then? 40 A. No. Oh, only direction as far as he was - I believe 41 he may have been the finishing foreman as part of his cadet 42 role, so I was just a plumber working for an employee. 43 44 Q. At some point your business was retained to work on 45 the pad sites at the Springfield Orion Project Stage 2; is 46 that right? 47 A. Correct.


1 2 Q. How did you come to get that work? 3 A. I tendered for it. 4 5 Q. How did you come to tender for it? 6 A. I was invited to tender. 7 8 Q. By? 9 A. I don't recall. 10 11 Q. How does Mirvac get to know that you're available to 12 be invited to tender? 13 A. I knew a lot of people in that organisation from when 14 I worked on the sites for Mirvac from, like, 2000 to 2003. 15 I also tendered on Stage 1 before Mat McAllum was working 16 at Mirvac. 17 18 Q. Did you successfully get that work? 19 A. No. 20 21 Q. Do you know why you got the work on Stage 2 and not 22 Stage 1? 23 A. I was the cheapest. 24 25 Q. You don't know? 26 A. Well, you'd imagine it was because I was the cheapest. 27 28 Q. Anything to do with the fact that you knew Mr McAllum, 29 to your knowledge? 30 A. No. No. To my knowledge, I would - look, it's nice 31 to know someone in - have a connection in a business. 32 However, I won the job because I was the cheapest, as far 33 as I know. 34 35 Q. Can you recall when you commenced working on, if 36 I could call it, the Pad 2 project? 37 A. I'd say it was somewhere around May. I think May. 38 39 Q. May 2013? 40 A. Yes, May 2013. 41 42 Q. I might just take you to some documents now. Could 43 the witness please have volume 1. Sir, would you be kind 44 enough to turn to page 94. Do you see there a series of 45 emails? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. "Orion 2D". Is that the Pad development or something 2 else? 3 A. I would imagine that's for the Pad development. 4 5 Q. The bottom one on the page, so that is 9.26am, from 6 you to Mr McAllum, it says: 7 8 RE: Orion 2D - Hydraulic Design. 9 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. Actually, the next page, page 95, is probably the 13 first in time. 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. That's from Mr McAllum to you, 5.56pm on 15 April: 17 18 Lucas, 19 20 Please find attached Hydraulic Design 21 drawings and Spec. 22 23 What's that all about? 24 A. That's obviously my invitation to tender. 25 26 Q. Had you had a previous discussion with Mr McAllum 27 prior to the email at 5.56pm on 15 April, do you recall? 28 A. No, I don't recall. 29 30 Q. Would you agree that the terms of that email suggest 31 that you must have had some sort of conversation or contact 32 or communication with him? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. You can't recall now what that was? 36 A. No, I don't recall, no. In all honesty, no, I don't, 37 but I would suggest it was somewhere along the lines of 38 would I be interested in quoting this job. 39 40 Q. In the course of that he says: 41 42 There are a few items that we need to 43 review in terms of the design that will 44 need to be changed ... Let me know when you 45 are available ... 46 47 Et cetera. That's when we get to the one at the bottom of


1 page 94. You suggest meeting on Thursday at 11; do you see 2 that? 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. He agrees in the one immediately above and then you 6 ask him, above that, at 9.36am: 7 8 Is that your office same as last on the 9 invite? 10 11 He says: 12 13 Yes mate unless you want to meet somewhere 14 else? 15 16 So, did you meet him? 17 A. I would say yes, based on what I'm reading, but 18 I don't recall, no. 19 20 Q. That's April. Can I now take you to page 183 in the 21 same volume. There there's an email from him to you: 22 23 Plumbing price - house at Cornubia 24 25 Lucas, 26 27 How are you progressing with the price for 28 the house at Cornubia. 29 30 So, between that April date and this May date, what had 31 occurred so far as the topic of Cornubia was concerned? 32 A. I was given a set of plans, physically given a set of 33 plans, and asked if I would give a budget price for it, 34 yeah. 35 36 Q. Where were you when you got that set of plans? 37 A. In Mirvac's office, in the city. 38 39 Q. Whose office were you in? 40 A. I don't - from my recollection, they didn't have 41 offices. It was an open plan sort of a thing. 42 43 Q. Who gave them to you? 44 A. Mat McAllum. 45 46 Q. What was the leading up conversation and the 47 surrounding conversation?


1 A. "Would you be interested in helping us out with a 2 house?" 3 4 Q. "Us out"? 5 A. Helping Mirvac out was the assumption that I made. 6 7 Q. He showed you some plans? 8 A. Well, yeah. He gave them to me, yeah. 9 10 Q. What details did they have on them? 11 A. Look, to be honest, I didn't even look at them. 12 13 Q. At all? 14 A. Not really, no. 15 16 Q. He asked you to help out for a house. What else did 17 he say, if anything? 18 A. That was pretty much the limit of the discussion. 19 20 Q. Did you know, for example, if you didn't look at the 21 plans, where the house was? 22 A. Oh, I opened them but I didn't - I didn't diagnose 23 them, but it was -- 24 25 Q. You didn't add on -- 26 A. I knew - he told me that it was at Cornubia, so I knew 27 it was at Cornubia. 28 29 Q. Right. So he gave you plans, he said there was a 30 house at Cornubia. What else did he say? 31 A. That is it. That's it. 32 33 Q. Can we just start from the beginning. 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. You go into Mirvac -- 37 A. I was there for another matter, I would suggest. 38 I wasn't called in specifically to discuss the house at 39 Cornubia. It would have been to do with the Orion project 40 which looking at those dates, I would suggest I had been 41 awarded at that stage, and they had a lot of design issues 42 with that project that caused dramas throughout the whole 43 project. It was poorly designed, very poorly designed. 44 45 Q. So he called you in, did he, or someone else? 46 A. He did. 47


1 Q. Or did you initiate it? 2 A. No. 3 4 Q. So Mr McAllum calls you in to attend his office in the 5 city? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Not out at the Orion site? 9 A. No. 10 11 Q. Did he have an office, to your knowledge, out at the 12 Orion site? 13 A. No. 14 15 Q. So he always worked in the city, did he? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. You go in there and you see him; it is an open plan 19 office? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Was anyone else there, to your recollection? 23 A. No. There was people there, of course, but no-one of 24 any specific - that I knew to my recollection, no. 25 26 Q. Did you go to a particular part of the open plan 27 office and sit down? 28 A. You could take me there now and I wouldn't know what 29 level, what area. 30 31 Q. You have no -- 32 A. No recollection of that, no. 33 34 Q. You do recall getting some plans? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. Did you keep the plans? 38 A. No. 39 40 Q. What did you do with them? 41 A. I have absolutely no idea, no recollection, but 42 I would suggest that when we worked on the site, I would 43 have given it to my employee who was working on the site. 44 45 Q. He says, "Could you work on a house for us at 46 Cornubia?", does he -- 47 A. Mmm-hmm.


1 2 Q. -- or something like that? 3 A. Mmm. Yes. 4 5 Q. Or was it some other way? 6 A. No, just like that. 7 8 Q. What did you say? 9 A. "Yeah, why not, yes." 10 11 Q. Did you expect to be paid for it? 12 A. At that stage I was making assumptions, due to the 13 lack of information, that it was for someone in Mirvac's 14 organisation and that it would be done as a favour. 15 16 Q. Have you had to do that before? 17 A. Absolutely. Not for Mirvac, but absolutely, yes. 18 19 Q. How many times have you had to do that? 20 A. I couldn't tell you how many. It's common practice. 21 22 Q. Do you normally get paid? 23 A. No. No, yes, it depends on the - it depends on the 24 person, but you never - you never get fully paid, no. You 25 never get what you outlay. 26 27 Q. Is that right? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. Did you get what you outlayed in this? 31 A. No. 32 33 Q. Did you get anything? 34 A. Not to my recollection. 35 36 Q. We'll be working through the documents. We just 37 looked at page 183. 38 39 How are you progressing with the price for 40 the house at Cornubia. 41 42 Did you get back to Mr McAllum? 43 A. No. No, I never supplied him a price. 44 45 Q. I beg your pardon? 46 A. I never supplied him a price. 47


1 Q. Had he asked you, though, for a price, given this 2 email at page 183 talks about progressing with the price? 3 A. Well, yeah, he had - obviously he'd asked me for a 4 price. 5 6 Q. Why would a price be relevant if you were not going to 7 be paid for it? 8 A. I didn't pursue being paid for it at that stage. I'd 9 assumed that it was someone further in the organisation of 10 Mirvac. I was trying to progress my business. In this 11 industry, relationships are far more important than 12 advertising, so I didn't pursue it. I didn't offer a 13 price; nor did I pursue being paid for the work. 14 15 Q. Back at the open plan office meeting where you got the 16 plans, he says, "Can you work on a house for us", or 17 something like that, "at Cornubia?"? 18 A. Mmm-hmm. 19 20 Q. Did he also say at that time, "Could you provide us a 21 quote?"? 22 A. I don't recall. 23 24 Q. Does it look like from what's put at page 183 that 25 something like that must have happened? 26 A. That's what you're suggesting, yes. 27 28 Q. If you're being asked for a quote, I suggest that 29 there is money that's going to be exchanged? 30 A. No, I don't believe so, no. 31 32 Q. Well, why would he need a quote? 33 A. Because he'd asked for one, but that doesn't mean 34 necessarily that I was ever going to have the intention of 35 charging him. 36 37 Q. If he was simply asking you to work on something that 38 you assumed was for someone senior in Mirvac, there would 39 be no further discussion of money? 40 A. Well, I guess he has to ask for a quote, otherwise 41 he's seen to be asking for it for free, isn't he? So, he's 42 asked me for a price but it was never discussed, and 43 I never offered him one, so I guess he's following protocol 44 by asking for a quote. 45 46 Q. Did you understand that from here on in, that this was 47 a secret matter, or did you understand that you could


1 discuss it with anyone in Mirvac, or something in between? 2 A. I'm not really certain on how to answer that question 3 because it just wasn't discussed. It wasn't a matter where 4 there was a discussion not to discuss it and it wasn't a 5 matter where there was a discussion to discuss it, it just 6 wasn't. 7 8 Q. Could you now please turn to page 216. There's an 9 email from you to Mr McAllum: 10 11 Reminder - fixture spec Cornubia 12 13 What does that mean? 14 A. Well, when we do an installation of any form, 15 hydraulically, we need to know what is going in the 16 property, big, small or otherwise. So I'd obviously agreed 17 to do the job, so I needed to know that information. So it 18 was a reminder to send me the fixtures spec. 19 20 Q. There's no further reminder, so far as the Commission 21 is aware, of Mr McAllum asking you for a quote again after 22 that request at page 183. Did he just drop the topic or 23 did you have further discussions about it, do you recall? 24 A. There was further discussions about the house, yes. 25 26 Q. Can you indicate what those discussions were? Can we 27 focus on the time before you started work. 28 A. I don't recall any - what I was going to comment on 29 was the discussions were: "We need to go to site at this 30 date to do the work". This date, or that date, "This is 31 where it's at", you know. 32 33 Q. So far as you were concerned, had you agreed to do the 34 house from the moment he passed to you the plans? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. So there was no further activity that needed to be 38 done before that agreement was solidified? 39 A. No. Like I said, I was - I saw it as a way to getting 40 - you know what I mean, build a relationship. At that 41 stage, that's what I believed it was. 42 43 Q. At 216, and then we've got 217, which is just shortly 44 after 216 in time. He is, I think - that is, Mr McAllum - 45 sending a document, a "Fixtures.pdf" document? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. It says: 2 3 Lucas, 4 5 Fixture details attached. I have sent 6 everything for coordination. 7 8 The septic tank is by others. 9 10 Let me know if any questions. 11 12 At this stage had you been to the property? 13 A. No. 14 15 Q. Did you know who was the owner of the property? 16 A. No. 17 18 Q. Did you ever find out who the owner of the property 19 was? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. When did you find that out? 23 A. Oh, look, I don't recall the exact date, but it was 24 well after we started on the site. 25 26 Q. But during the time you were working on the site? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. How did you come to find out? 30 A. I don't recall exactly, but what I do know with 31 certainty is that I went to site on one occasion and one 32 occasion only and, when I was there, I was introduced to 33 the owner of the house. 34 35 Q. Was that the male owner or the female owner? 36 A. The male owner. 37 38 Q. Were you introduced by name? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. Did that mean something to you? 42 A. Look, not - it didn't mean anything to me, but 43 I recognised the name. It didn't mean anything to me, but 44 I recognised the name. 45 46 Q. You'd heard the name "Dave Hanna" before? 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. Did you know he was a senior Union official? 3 A. No. 4 5 Q. You had no idea? 6 A. I knew he was with the Union. I didn't know he was a 7 senior Union official. 8 9 Q. How did you know he was with the Union? 10 A. Well, he has been with the Union for years. When I 11 was working for Mirvac in the period of 2000 to 2003, he 12 was with the Union then. My business doesn't do Union 13 work. This was my very first and only Union involved job. 14 Dave Hanna has been with the Union for years, so I knew the 15 name, but I didn't know him, you know, to look at until 16 that day. 17 18 Q. That day you realised it wasn't a house being built 19 for a Mirvac executive, it was being built for a Union 20 official? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. Did you ask Mr McAllum anything further about why that 24 was occurring? 25 A. No, not at that stage, no. 26 27 Q. At any stage? 28 A. No, I never asked him about why that was occurring, 29 no. 30 31 Q. Did you ask him about anything else in relation to it 32 being Mr Hanna's house? 33 A. No. 34 35 Q. The way you answered my last few questions indicated 36 that you had some sort of discussion, or am I misreading 37 your answers? 38 A. I'd say you're misreading my answers. 39 40 Q. Could I ask you now to turn to page 270. Is this just 41 in relation to the Pad 2 work, this email, can you recall? 42 A. Well, the email is titled that, so I would say yes. 43 44 Q. Just going back to Mr Hanna for a moment, did you have 45 any discussion with Mr Hanna on-site? 46 A. Brief, from memory. He was in a tractor or an 47 excavator or something, and I was introduced by my employee


1 and that was the extent of it. I wouldn't have gone to the 2 site, but I was there not because of the house, I wasn't 3 there to visit the house. I was there to visit my 4 employee. 5 6 Q. What's the name of your employee who worked on the 7 house? 8 A. Colin Considine. 9 10 Q. Did Mr Considine talk to you about the owner of the 11 house? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. What did he talk to you about? What did he say? 15 A. He was quite fond of her. 16 17 Q. Of Mrs Hanna? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. Anything else apart from his fondness for her? 21 A. No. 22 23 Q. Could I please ask you to turn to page 331. That is 24 an email of 12 June. It is from Mr McAllum to you: 25 26 Would you be able to start the Cornubia 27 house next week? 28 29 And further information is there. What role did understand 30 Mr McAllum had in relation to the Cornubia house? 31 A. I would say he was managing it. 32 33 Q. Project managing it? 34 A. If that's the term, yes. 35 36 Q. What made you come to that view? 37 A. Well, it was only him that I was dealing with with 38 regards to the requirements on that house. 39 40 Q. Do you remember ever being asked to buy tickets for a 41 Union event? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. What was that Union event? 45 A. Boxing. 46 47 Q. Did you in fact buy tickets?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Did you pay for the tickets? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. Did you get reimbursed for your payment for the 7 tickets? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. How did that reimbursement occur? 11 A. Through a variation. 12 13 Q. Variation in relation to what job? 14 A. Orion. 15 16 Q. Why did you claim that reimbursement for a Union event 17 through Mirvac? 18 A. I was directed to. 19 20 Q. By whom? 21 A. Mat McAllum. 22 23 Q. Could I ask you, please, to turn to pages 365, 366, 24 367 and 368, so those four pages. 25 A. Mmm-hmm. 26 27 Q. It is from Mr McAllum to you, copying in Ms Croghan: 28 29 Subject: FW: BLF Fight Night 2013 30 31 I'm looking at the top of page 365. 32 33 Lucas, 34 35 Please find attached invoice for payment. 36 Please claim as a variation - excavation in 37 rock (cost + 10%). Let me know if any 38 questions. We can get the invoice name 39 changed as required with your details. 40 41 And then below that is an email from Mr Moore to 42 Mr McAllum, I'm not suggesting you were a party to that 43 email. Did you know who Mr Adam Moore was? 44 A. I do know who Adam Moore is, yes. 45 46 Q. How long have you known who he is? 47 A. The same amount of time as Mat.


1 2 Q. So that he's known to you? 3 A. He is known to me, yes. 4 5 Q. So since about 2000? Were you in regular contact with 6 him during 2013? 7 A. No. 8 9 Q. Do you recall receiving this email, the one at the top 10 of the page, which had that email stream which involved 11 Mr Moore? 12 A. Well, yes. 13 14 Q. What do you recall? 15 A. Exactly what you're looking at. 16 17 Q. At the bottom of the page is from 18 [email protected] to Adam Moore: 19 20 Subject: BLF Fight Night 2013 21 22 Hi Adam, 23 24 Please find attached amended invoice for 25 the BLF Fight night for Kane Pearson. 26 27 Any dramas please give us a call. 28 29 How well did you know Mr Moore at that time? 30 A. He had been a site manager back when I was working for 31 the other plumbing company that had contracts with Mirvac. 32 I'm not the sort of person that walks around, you know, 33 with my head dipped. I go to work to enjoy my time so 34 I talk to people and Adam was the site manager. I don't 35 know Adam on a personal level, if that's what you're 36 asking. I know him only purely professionally and I hadn't 37 spoken to Adam in 2013 at all, other than when I walked 38 into the office one day, he was out the front having a 39 cigarette, I said "hello", end of story. That's my only 40 involvement with Adam, full stop. 41 42 Q. Prior to you getting this email, where it is said to 43 claim the cost of the BLF Fight Night as an excavation in 44 rock cost, had you any discussion with either Mr Moore or 45 Mr McAllum about it? 46 A. No. 47


1 Q. So it came out of the blue, did it, this email? 2 A. As far as I can recall. 3 4 Q. Isn't that a bit odd? 5 A. No. 6 7 Q. Well, for a start, if you go over to page 367, 8 "CFMEU Pride", there's a BLF Union logo and a CFMEU logo. 9 Were they Unions that you regularly dealt with? 10 A. No. 11 12 Q. Why did you feel that you needed to buy tickets or 13 make a donation? 14 A. Because my employer, Mirvac, had sent me a direction 15 to do so. 16 17 Q. Would you go over to page 368. Do you see there a tax 18 invoice addressed to Mirvac? It is a BLF Charity 19 Foundation annual fight, $4,000, two tables of 10, total 20 amount payable $4,400. It has been addressed to Mirvac and 21 you're being asked to pay for it but then claim the money 22 you've paid so you can be reimbursed by Mirvac. That's all 23 a bit strange, isn't it? 24 A. Not really, no. I've never - I've never done this 25 before. This was a first for me, but I know it happens all 26 the time. So, no, it wasn't strange, not in the 27 construction industry. It's team building, I guess, is 28 what they would put it down to. 29 30 Q. Team building? 31 A. Mmm. 32 33 Q. Did you have any discussion, "Why me? Because I'm a 34 plumber, I'm not a construction person"? 35 A. No. It made sense to me. 36 37 Q. Why? 38 A. Because it says, "Claim as a variation excavation in 39 rock", and we were hitting rock on-site. 40 41 Q. Were you going to use your 20 tickets? 42 A. Myself? 43 44 Q. Yes. 45 A. No. 46 47 Q. Were you going to use any of them?


1 A. That wasn't discussed at the time, no. It wasn't - 2 that's the extent of the email at the time. 3 4 Q. So you're telling the Commission this literally came 5 out of the blue, you got an invoice that was actually just 6 to Mirvac for you to pay for the Union, and you didn't even 7 know whether you were going to go to the event? 8 A. That's my recollection, as far as I can recall, yes. 9 10 Q. You had no prior discussion at all; is that right? 11 A. Not that I can recall. 12 13 Q. Would you actually put that volume away, please, and 14 go to volume 2, page 401. Do see there an email - we've 15 seen some of the chain before, but the top one is from you 16 to Mr McAllum: 17 18 Matt, 19 20 Any joy getting the invoice changed? 21 22 If not I will just pay it how it is on 23 Friday. 24 25 What change were you expecting? 26 A. Well, to be made out to my company. 27 28 Q. What difference did that make? 29 A. I don't know. I've no idea. No idea. I imagine that 30 it just was made to me, not Mirvac then. 31 32 Q. When you were asked to do this, that is, pay a BLF 33 Fight Night, which was BLF, and had a CFMEU logo as well, 34 what was your understanding of why you were being asked to 35 do it, if you had any? 36 A. As I said before, because there was a way that they 37 could write it off on the job, in rock, because I had hit 38 rock. 39 40 Q. Were you aware of any particular presence of the BLF 41 on any Mirvac site that you had ever worked on? 42 A. Not particular, no. 43 44 Q. Had you had any discussion with Mr McAllum, or anyone 45 else in Mirvac, about the Union? 46 A. No. Other than that I had to do the job as an EBA 47 company, with which I would have to be - have an EBA that


1 was signed by the CEPU, which is the Communications 2 Electrical and Plumbing Union, nothing to do with the BLF 3 or CFMEU. That was the extent of my Union discussions with 4 Mirvac. 5 6 Q. Was your understanding, if you had any, given you had 7 to have an EBA contract yourself, that other people who 8 were under the auspices of the construction Unions had to 9 have an EBA? 10 A. Oh, absolutely. 11 12 Q. Was it the case, so far as you were aware, if they 13 didn't have a Union EBA, they wouldn't get work? 14 A. That's the rules. It's not a favouritism thing. 15 That's just the rules. 16 17 Q. Whose rules? 18 A. I don't know. I don't know a lot about the Unions and 19 EBAs, and stuff like that, but I mean, I've worked for EBA 20 companies, I started one to do this job. I don't know who 21 made the rules. I don't know how that works. I don't know 22 who decides who is an EBA job and who's not. I don't know. 23 All I know this was and it's not uncommon for all major 24 contracts throughout Australia to be Union affiliated. 25 26 Q. So, for example, if on this job when you were 27 tendering for it you said, "No, I don't want to do an EBA 28 contract, I just want to do the work", or "I don't want a 29 Union EBA", or, "I don't want an EBA at all", could you 30 have said that? 31 A. I could of, but you wouldn't get the job. 32 33 Q. Why do you say that? 34 A. Because you had to have an EBA to work on it, was my 35 understanding. 36 37 Q. On the Mirvac job or -- 38 A. For - there's a list of companies, I believe, 39 builders, that have registered EBAs with the Unions. If 40 you work for those companies, on any of those projects, you 41 have to have a registered EBA to do so. 42 43 Q. There's a list? 44 A. Like you said, it's not a secret. As far as I know 45 it's - like, do you know what I mean? It's, like, all the 46 big companies. Like I said to you at the start, I don't 47 know a lot about the Unions. I don't know a lot; I don't


1 want to know a lot, you know. I just knew that at that 2 time I would like my business to have done more major 3 contracts. To do this, I needed to have an EBA. 4 5 Q. And you got that understanding how? 6 A. Because I'd tendered other work, or gone to tender 7 other work, and you needed to be an EBA company to do the 8 job. 9 10 Q. Where did you learn that information, if you can try 11 and remember? 12 A. Where? Like, where do you mean? 13 14 Q. Well, how? I mean, it didn't come out of the ether. 15 A. As I said, my background and my apprenticeship was 16 served in EBA companies from 1994, so I knew that all big 17 jobs were EBA. 18 19 Q. From about 1994? 20 A. From about 1994, that all jobs were EBA. But when 21 I started my business, I didn't have any involvement with 22 them, and then this one turned out that I needed to have an 23 EBA to do. So it didn't surprise me, no, that that was the 24 case. It was the norm - it is the norm. 25 26 Q. Could I ask you now to go to page 403, just to 27 continue through the documents. Do you see there 28 Mr McAllum says: 29 30 Coming through now direct from Jessica. 31 Thanks mate. Speak soon. 32 33 So that looks like they've changed invoice, or an amended 34 invoice? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. Do you recall getting it? 38 A. I don't recall getting it, but I know we did. 39 40 Q. Could I now ask you to go over to page 407. We're 41 just working chronologically through the documents. 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. It is an email from Mr McAllum, 20 June, to you: 45 46 Lucas, 47


1 See below fixture selection. Would we be 2 able to get a price asap including lead 3 times. Are these off the shelf? 4 5 Et cetera. That's quite a lot of detailed requests there. 6 Did you assume you were going to get paid for this detailed 7 work? 8 A. This isn't work. This is just asking for - asking if 9 we can get a price and at that stage it doesn't mean - 10 that's just asking to get them. 11 12 Q. Could I ask you to go to page 416. It is from you to 13 Rory Martin, copied to Mat McAllum. Who is Rory Martin? 14 A. He was my account manager at Reece Plumbing Supplies. 15 16 Q. At, sorry? 17 A. Reece Plumbing Supplies. 18 19 Q. The subject is "Cornubia house for Mirvac": 20 21 Rory, 22 23 They have now confirmed the PC's ... 24 25 What does that stand for? 26 A. Oh, prime costs. It's a word - it's just what we use 27 to -- 28 29 Q. Sorry, I didn't get that answer? 30 A. Prime cost. It is just what we use to - it's probably 31 not the correct terminology, but it's what I use to, like, 32 describe fixtures - fixtures and fittings. 33 34 Q. Over the page there's a quote from Reece and that goes 35 through to page 420. Can I ask you then to turn to 36 page 425. Do you know what that relates to? 37 A. This must relate to rock. 38 39 Q. Rock, did you say? Whose writing is it? 40 A. I'm not entirely certain. It could be mine, but I'm 41 not - I'm not - it could be mine. I'm not entirely certain 42 though. 43 44 Q. Under the date 20 June 2013, there is the "VO" 45 circled. Does that stand for variation or something else? 46 A. Yes, variation order. 47


1 Q. Does that indicate hours of work done? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. Was there in fact an actual rock excavation, as well 5 as a fake one? 6 A. Oh, absolutely, yes, 100 per cent. 7 8 Q. Do we take it from this that that's relating to an 9 actual rock excavation, or don't you know? 10 A. I don't know. I don't recall. 11 12 Q. Can I ask you please to go to page 444. Do you see 13 there an email from Mr McAllum to you called 14 "cornubia fixtures", and it has annexed to it a whole lot 15 of products? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. Do you recall getting that email? 19 A. I don't recall getting it but, yes, I remember these 20 documents. 21 22 Q. Did you end up using those fixtures? 23 A. Well, if they match what's in the quote, yes. 24 25 Q. Did you get them yourself and bring them to Cornubia 26 or get your employee or -- 27 A. I'm not exactly sure of the logistics, like you're 28 suggesting. However, no, we didn't get all of it. We only 29 got what was required to be done at rough-in: ie, 30 need more mixers, that's the extent; need more mixers, need 31 more mixers, more mixers; I believe we got the bath. 32 33 Q. So you didn't get them, were they just there -- 34 A. Oh, they get delivered. Like, we don't physically go 35 and pick them up, but I'm suggesting that we supplied them, 36 yes. 37 38 Q. Did you supply all of the fixtures that you -- 39 A. Priced? No. 40 41 Q. The ones that you didn't price, where did they come 42 from? 43 A. We priced them all. 44 45 Q. Sorry, if you didn't supply them, where did they come 46 from? 47 A. No idea.


1 2 Q. They were just there, were they? 3 A. At fit-out? Correct. 4 5 Q. Do you understand the client must have got them from 6 somewhere? 7 A. Yes, that is my understanding. 8 9 Q. Can I ask you, please, to go to page 462. At page 463 10 there's some further emails between you and Mr McAllum; do 11 you see those? 12 A. Mmm-hmm. 13 14 Q. You were the person who was doing the contact and it 15 was Mr Considine who was doing the work, is that how the 16 work was divided up? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Could you now go to page 20 466. Do you see there an email from you to 21 Mr McAllum: 22 23 Hi Matt, 24 25 Paid as per the attached. 26 27 Then at page 468, I think that might be what you attached, 28 that being a bank record of $4,400 being paid to the BLF 29 Charity Foundation. Do you see that? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. Reference "Mirvac"? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. You indicated that to Mr McAllum. In the email at 36 page 466, what does the part of the email mean that says: 37 38 Did not see the other one today?? That's 39 it for me this week will have to get onto 40 it Monday. 41 42 Do you know what that's in relation to? 43 A. No idea. That could be to do with any contract. 44 45 Q. And then page 469, after you've paid it, it appears 46 that Mr McAllum is saying: 47


1 Thanks mate. Keep that night free if you 2 can. 3 4 You're now being invited to it? 5 A. That's what it appears, yes. 6 7 Q. 8 We have sent the details for the Origin and 9 we may receive the invoice today ... 10 11 What is that about? Is that something different? 12 A. I don't recall. 13 14 Q. Could you next please go to page 485. Do you see 15 there an email from someone at Reece to you in relation to 16 a quote annexing a document, it would appear, for a 17 misspelt "CORNUMBIA HOUSE FOR MIRVAC". Is that quote 18 immediately behind -- 19 A. Sorry, I missed that? 20 21 Q. Do you see the email at page 485 which apparently 22 attaches a quote? 23 A. Right. 24 25 Q. Do you see a document, pages 487 through to 490, which 26 appears to be the quote? 27 A. Correct. 28 29 Q. Did you order some of those items? 30 A. Yes, as explained before. 31 32 Q. Then can I ask you, please, to go to page 495. Do you 33 see there an email from Mr McAllum to you and it's about a 34 bath. Do you see that? 35 A. On - sorry, wrong page. 36 37 Q. Pages 495. 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. Did you assist with that? 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. And then at page 497: 44 45 Please find attached bathroom layouts for 46 Cornubia for Col. 47


1 That's Mr Considine, is it? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. 5 Let me know if any questions 6 7 It says "bathroom plans", but is that in fact what those 8 documents are, or do they follow a bit further after? Do 9 you see anything that fits the description? 10 A. No. How far - how many pages through do I go to? 11 Like, 514? 12 13 Q. There's also a quote at page 517 that I think we've 14 seen before. 15 A. Which is just a - just a statement. 16 17 Q. Do you recall getting bathroom plans or can't you 18 recall? 19 A. No, I don't recall getting bathroom plans. 20 21 Q. I ask you to go to 521. That appears to be a repeat? 22 A. Mmm-hmm. 23 24 Q. And then 524, we now have what would appear to be 25 plans, do you see that? So the other one must have been 26 some sort of mis-sending. Did you pass these on to 27 Mr Considine? 28 A. Not that I recall. It's so long ago, but, I imagine 29 I did. I was directing him to do the job. 30 31 Q. Can you please go to page 534. There's further 32 discussion there; you say to Mr McAllum: 33 34 Col who is right beside me has just 35 informed me the bath has changed ... 36 37 Et cetera. So, where would he have been right beside you? 38 Is that at your office? 39 A. I don't recall. 40 41 Q. Are you able to email when you're out and about? 42 A. Absolutely. 43 44 Q. Would you have been at the house at that time? 45 A. No. 46 47 Q. No?


1 A. No. 2 3 Q. Then can you please go to page 546. You're copied in 4 there to an email between Mr McAllum and Col, that's your 5 Mr Considine, and there's some problem with someone having 6 clipped a pipe. Do you see that? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. The following few pages appear to be documents which 10 don't contain much information at all. Do you know what 11 they're about? Sorry, page 549. 12 A. It looks like it's a bounceback, to me. 13 14 Q. I ask you to go to page 564. Do you see there at the 15 bottom half of the page where it is hard to read - perhaps 16 this could be blown up a touch on the screen. Thank you. 17 It is from Jessica Kanofski of the BLF Union, to a range of 18 people. The one immediately above that: Natalie Croghan 19 and Mat McAllum have been forwarded that from Adam Moore 20 and then Mat McAllum refers something to you; do you see 21 that? 22 A. Mmm-hmm. 23 24 Q. 25 Please see attached. 26 27 Be at my place 5.30pm if you want to get 28 lift in together. 29 30 So you knew Mr McAllum well enough to go to his place? 31 A. I don't socialise with him, but I know where he was 32 because - where he lives, because we did the plumbing on 33 his house. 34 35 Q. When did you do that? 36 A. I don't recall. A long time ago. 37 38 Q. Not around this time? 39 A. Absolutely not. 40 41 Q. Did you in fact get a lift in with Mr McAllum? 42 A. I don't recall. I don't think so, no. I don't -- 43 44 Q. Did you go to the fight night? 45 A. I did. 46 47 Q. Do you recall seeing Mr McAllum there?


1 A. Yes. Yes. 2 3 Q. Do you recall seeing anyone else from Mirvac? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. And who was that, or those people? 7 A. I don't know all of their names. I really can't 8 recall exactly who was there, but I know it was 9 predominantly Mirvac employees and some subcontractors. 10 11 Q. There were 20 people together, there were two tables? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. There was you and there was Mr McAllum? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Was Ms Croghan there? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. Was Mr Moore there? 21 A. No. 22 23 Q. But your impression was other seats were taken up by 24 either Mirvac people, or subcontractors? 25 A. Correct. 26 27 Q. What sort of proportion? 28 A. I don't know. I really don't know. I don't know. 29 I didn't know a lot of the faces there. There was a 30 handful of people that I knew. 31 32 Q. A good networking opportunity for you? 33 A. Absolutely. Absolutely, yes. 34 35 Q. So, you must have had a bit of a discussion with 36 people as to where they were from? 37 A. Not really, no. No. No, I didn't. 38 39 Q. Your impression was that they were either from Mirvac 40 or they were subcontractors. What gave you that 41 impression? 42 A. I was there; I was a subcontractor. 43 44 Q. But you've indicated -- 45 A. And Mat was there and he worked for Mirvac so -- 46 47 Q. Right. But you could have the impression that other


1 than Mr McAllum and Ms Croghan, that there was no-one else 2 there from Mirvac, but that's not what you -- 3 A. Oh, look, there were faces there that I recognised 4 from - I don't remember exactly who was there. I don't 5 want to say people unless it's factual -- 6 7 Q. Sure. 8 A. -- okay? But I don't - I know that there were other 9 Mirvac people there. 10 11 Q. Could you give an estimate of the numbers from Mirvac? 12 A. From Mirvac? 13 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Ten. 16 17 Q. And the balance being subcontractors? 18 A. Yes. Subcontractors or other people that -- 19 20 Q. Or other people? 21 A. They weren't all people I knew. 22 23 Q. Was it a situation where people came with partners, so 24 far as you could tell? 25 A. No. 26 27 Q. So, in terms of gender distribution, apart from 28 Ms Croghan, were there a lot of women? 29 A. There were a few of them, yes. It certainly wasn't a 30 boys night, if that's what you're asking. 31 32 Q. The women were from Mirvac, to your understanding? 33 A. I believe one of them was, but I don't know if any 34 other - the other ones, I don't know, no. 35 36 Q. Anyone from the Union that you can recall, or from a 37 Union that you can recall? 38 A. At those tables? 39 40 Q. Yes. 41 A. Not that I - like I - I don't know. I don't know the 42 Union people. I don't even know at that stage whether I'd 43 even met David Hanna, you know, like to put a face, and 44 I certainly didn't recognise any CEPU people. 45 46 Q. Following 565, 566, 567, 569, we see just further 47 information about that. Then could you go to 657, please.


1 There is an email from Mr McAllum to you and Mr Considine 2 about downpipes at Cornubia, et cetera. Do you recall that 3 email? 4 A. No. 5 6 Q. The following page, one from you to McAllum: 7 8 I can send down Simon and have Dan meet him 9 there first up with you to clarify works. 10 11 Who were they? 12 A. They're other employees. 13 14 Q. At one time did you have three employees at Cornubia? 15 A. At one time? 16 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. Like, together? 19 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. No. 22 23 Q. But all together you either had Mr Considine or Simon 24 or Dan? 25 A. This was treated like no other job - sorry, like any 26 other job. 27 28 Q. Right. 29 A. If we were required to be on-site - if I take 30 something on regardless of cost, who's paying for it, you 31 know, we conduct ourselves in a professional manner. You 32 can't take it on and then get the sads for one reason or 33 another. It was taken on; we had to do the job. 34 I couldn't get Col there, he was obviously tied up, so 35 I had to get other employees there to keep the job moving. 36 37 Q. You might have said this before, how many employees do 38 you have? 39 A. Currently? 40 41 Q. No, back in 2013. 42 A. Look, I don't recall exactly but I would say somewhere 43 between 10 to 15. 44 45 Q. Page 659, further communication between you and him 46 and also page 660. So you were going to meet on-site and 47 you've copied in, as I understand it, your other two


1 employees? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. Did you go to site? 5 A. That wasn't for me to meet on-site. That was a - 6 that's a follow-on from saying that I can send down Simon 7 and have Dan meet him there first up to clarify works. 8 "Yes mate - thanks." That's at 657. That's the trail. 9 I'd say that that's what that incurred. As I said, I only 10 went to Cornubia once and it wasn't to visit the job, it 11 was to visit the employee. 12 13 Q. Was that for a particular purpose related to the 14 Cornubia site or something else? 15 A. No. 16 17 Q. Page 661 is just a further discussion about the bath 18 problem, and you've arranged to ask for a credit, then at 19 page 676, further bath discussion, this time between the 20 Reece person and yourself, copying in Mr McAllum and 21 Mr Considine. Do you see that? 22 A. Yes, because we got stuffed around. It's fairly 23 commonplace by our suppliers, unfortunately, but I guess 24 that's a bit of face-saving there, copying Mat in, just to 25 sort of say - do you know what I mean - "Hey, it wasn't 26 us", because it makes us look unprofessional when we're let 27 down by suppliers. 28 29 Q. Page 713, it looks like some sort of meeting 30 invitation. Do you know who the meeting was for? It says 31 "Dan to set Simon up"? 32 A. That would be that, wouldn't it? That would be the - 33 that would be - well, that's how we - I mean, that's how we 34 arrange our schedule. That would mean how I let my guys 35 know that's where they needed to be. 36 37 Q. Can you now go to page 734. From you to 38 Natalie Croghan, a copy to Mat McAllum, "Claim 3 Orion". 39 40 Hi Natalie, 41 42 Please find attached Claim 3 and Stat Dec. 43 44 Mat and I have been in lengthy discussion 45 with regard to the formulation of this 46 claim and if you need any clarification 47 please talk to him.


1 2 There's also a stat dec behind it -- 3 A. Mmm-hmm. 4 5 Q. -- at page 735. 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Then at page 736 there's a progress claim for the Pad 9 Site Stage 2? 10 A. Mmm-hmm. 11 12 Q. And then page 737, Annexure A, talks about 13 "Contract works completed to date" -- 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. "As set out in Annexure B", and variations completed 17 to date, $81,999.50 -- 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. -- as set out in Annexure C. 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. Going across to Annexure C, at page 739 -- 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. -- do you see there "Temporary Services", at item 27 number 3, "$12,600"? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. What was that in relation to? 31 A. I don't recall that. I'd imagine it was for temporary 32 services. 33 34 Q. What does that mean? 35 A. Well, they have a large body of site sheds, toilets. 36 They had water and sewer and all sorts of stuff and they 37 may have needed to be moved. I don't recall. I don't 38 recall the exact scope of works there. 39 40 Q. Were you involved with the preparation of these 41 documents, these annexures and the like? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. In fact, was it you who did that? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. Would we expect to see further information about each


1 of these variation numbers? 2 A. There may have been. If we can avoid it, we don't. 3 There's a lot of work to formulate it. If we're not 4 pressed for more information, we often don't provide it. 5 6 Q. In terms of the two rock-breaking items, is one of 7 those in fact to cover, plus a bit of extra money, or about 8 10 per cent, the BLF Fight Night? 9 A. Looking at that, I don't recall. Looking at your 10 email - email evidence that you showed me earlier, you 11 would suggest that, yes, that number two is. However, then 12 when you look at that other documentation that's been 13 signed off by the site foreman, then it was for rock. 14 I don't recall if we did or did not claim the boxing night. 15 16 Q. This has got an electronic version of this document 17 that we just would like to show you. Someone is going to 18 assist? Thank you. That document up on screen now, do you 19 see that? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. That's a progress claim which apparently matches the 23 document at page 736 in hardcopy. 24 A. True. 25 26 Q. Can we click to Annexure A. That matches, it would 27 appear, page 737. Can we click to Annexure B and that 28 appears to match 738; then Annexure C. What the operator 29 is doing, just for the record, is clicking on the 30 electronic version of the excel spreadsheet with the tabs 31 down below. The first tab is called "Coversheet", the next 32 tab was Annex A, the next tab was Annex B, and we're 33 currently on the tab called Annex C. 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. That matches page 739. Could the operator please 37 click on Annexure E. That appears to match page 740; then 38 Annexure F which appears to match 742. Then you've got a 39 tab called "Var1 Basis" which appears to be matching 743 in 40 the hardcopy. 41 A. Mmm-hmm. 42 43 Q. Can we then go to Variation 1. That's the tab that is 44 called "Variation 1", and that appears to match the 45 document at 744, and if we can look at both the electronic 46 version and the hardcopy version, it's called "Variation 47 1".


1 A. Mmm-hmm. 2 3 Q. Could we then go to the next tab called "Var2 Basis". 4 That appears to match the hardcopy at 745. 5 A. Mmm-hmm. 6 7 Q. Do you see there at 745, either electronically or on 8 the hardcopy, the last line is: 9 10 Works as per approval from M. McAllum. 11 12 A. Mmm-hmm. 13 14 Q. Page 746 in the hardcopy, can the operator click on 15 "Var 2", that appears to match page 746 in the hardcopy. 16 A. Mmm-hmm. 17 18 Q. Then could the operator please click on "Var3 Basis". 19 Do you see the electronic copy is blank? 20 A. Mmm-hmm. 21 22 Q. Then could the operator please click on "Var 3", and 23 do you see the electronic copy is blank? 24 A. Mmm-hmm. 25 26 Q. And then could the operator please click on 27 "Var4 Basis", and do you see there that matches 747 -- 28 A. Mmm-hmm. 29 30 Q. -- in the hardcopy and I think "Var4" matches 749 in 31 the hardcopy, and we can probably leave it there. So, do 32 you see how Variation 3 has no supporting documentation, 33 but the others do? 34 A. Mmm-hmm. 35 36 Q. Do you recall that Variation 3 was temporary services 37 for $12,600? 38 A. Only from looking at that. 39 40 Q. Yes. Can I now have the witness given volume 4. Sir, 41 could you please turn to page 1332. Do you have it? Do 42 you recognise this document? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. What is it? 46 A. It's our costs incurred for the house at Cornubia. 47


1 Q. How do you know that it is your costs incurred for the 2 house at Cornubia? 3 A. Because of the title and because that's what I gave to 4 the AFP when asked about costs incurred at Cornubia. 5 6 Q. The total is under that shaded area "Orion_C", 7 "Orion Cornubia"? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. Why is it called "Orion Cornubia"? 11 A. Because we were asked to do it by Mirvac. It was a 12 way to track - it was a way to track it. Cornubia would 13 have meant nothing if I just wrote "Cornubia" because 14 normally is attached to a builder. You know, further into 15 the system it is attached to a builder. It's just how the 16 system works. So by putting "Orion" there, it attached it 17 to a cost code of Mirvac, but it was just a way to track 18 what we were spending there. 19 20 Q. The amount under "Temporary Services", that is item 3, 21 Variation 3, for $12,600, we saw back at 739, which is 22 attached to your progress claim which is 21 July, it says: 23 24 25 Claim date 26 27 Work completed up to [31 July] 28 29 That's at page 736. 30 A. Mmm-hmm. 31 32 Q. If we go back to the document we've just been looking 33 at at 1332, that sets out, does it not, work done per date? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. And then if one looks in the third column, that's the 37 "Date" column? 38 A. Mmm-hmm. 39 40 Q. If you add up all of the amounts, up to and including 41 22 July, if you'd accept from me that those amounts - and 42 if you take away that credit amount of $828.80 - it comes 43 to $12,743.79? 44 A. Mmm-hmm. 45 46 Q. That appears to be close to $12,600 in Variation #3 -- 47 A. Mmm-hmm.


1 2 Q. -- that's not otherwise been explained in the excel 3 spreadsheet. Is it the case that you have asked, through 4 the submission of the invoice and temporary services for 5 $12,600, to be reimbursed for the Cornubia related costs by 6 Mirvac? 7 A. No. 8 9 Q. It's just a coincidence -- 10 A. Absolutely. 11 12 Q. -- that they add up to that amount of money? 13 A. Yes. Why would I - I wouldn't have done myself out of 14 money. I think that's less. That is more than what the 15 variation is. 16 17 Q. Well, if you add it up - and I said up to and 18 including 22 July - it's only, sir, $143.79 less? 19 A. If I had to have been - the intention had have been to 20 put it into the variation, it would be a lot more than 21 that. You know, like, I wouldn't have done it - I wouldn't 22 have done it at cost. Like, that's just cost, do you know 23 what I mean? There's no margin in that at all and I have 24 to hold all those costs. Like, that there doesn't include 25 super for my employees; it doesn't include running costs of 26 their vehicles, it doesn't include any of that. Like, 27 that's not - that's what their hourly rate added up - like, 28 do you know what I mean, what they got in their pay packet. 29 It doesn't include - I couldn't - do you know what I mean? 30 Like, I wouldn't have done that. If that variation equated 31 to that, it would be more. That's my recollection. That 32 is how I would do it. 33 34 Q. So you're saying you'd rather get nothing? 35 A. Well, I never discussed money with Mat and, like I 36 said to you, like, we committed to the job and I put it 37 down to being advertising. 38 39 Q. So you say it's a complete -- 40 A. Relationship building. 41 42 Q. So it is a complete coincidence that the figures in 43 this Cornubia related document at page 1332, which go up to 44 and include 22 July, the fact that they're only $143.79 45 different to the $12,600 that was claimed for and not 46 otherwise explained to Mirvac, you say that that's an 47 entire coincidence, do you?


1 A. That's the only assumption I can make, is to agree 2 with you, that it's a coincidence. 3 4 Q. And that the description at page 1332 is not only 5 Cornubia but it is "Orion Cornubia", that's just got 6 nothing to do with it either, is that what you're telling 7 the Commission? 8 A. It's got nothing to do with the variation, is that 9 what you're asking? 10 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. Yes, that's what I'm telling the Commission. 13 14 Q. Why would the word "Orion" be included at all? 15 A. Because that's where I was asked to do it. Like, 16 that's the relationship to this house, I was asked to do it 17 because I was on Orion, so it was just the way to track the 18 job. It was an easy way for the guys to track the job. I 19 have to give the guys a job that they can note on their 20 time sheets and when making purchase orders so that it can 21 be tracked. 22 23 Q. Does the total, which I think appears over at 24 page 1333, of $16,008.19 in the debit column -- 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. -- and the credit column is $1,023.41, if you take 28 that off, so about $15,000 or so, you say simply you bore 29 that as a relationship cost? 30 A. As far as I can recall. I don't - I don't recall 31 exactly. As I stated to the AFP, I was somewhat shocked to 32 see what the value of that house was. I had not looked at 33 it really with any depth until they came knocking on the 34 door. 35 36 Q. You mean the value in terms of your work? 37 A. My expenditure, yes. 38 39 Q. You maintain your evidence, do you, that it is a pure 40 coincidence that the bulk of the money which happens to be 41 very similar to the temporary services amount of $12,600, 42 you say that is a coincidence and that it has no 43 relationship to the amount that you claimed from Mirvac for 44 temporary services? 45 A. To the best of my recollection. Like, I don't recall 46 exactly every - I mean, it was two years ago. 47


1 Q. You could recall it if you'd filled in the details as 2 you'd filled in for all the other variations. You didn't 3 fill in the details for Variation 3 that we've seen? 4 A. No, that's right, so that's why I can't recall it; and 5 nor did I for any following on from that. There's not much 6 detail in them. Like, unless we were pressed for detail, 7 we didn't give detail, as I explained before. 8 9 Q. There was some detail. For example, at page 755, for 10 the following ones, there's hours? 11 A. No, that's just the template. That's not - that's 12 just - that is how it is - that's the template. That's not 13 been filled in. 14 15 Q. Right. So you're saying it is not filled in at all? 16 A. No, it's not. 17 18 Q. And 757, the value of $160 twice, you say that is or 19 isn't filled in? 20 A. Oh, there's "Percentage complete", "0", 21 "Value Complete", "$0.00". It's the template. 22 23 Q. And then at 758, the total of $320 is nothing; not 24 relevant? 25 A. Again, "Complete", "$0.00". It's just the template. 26 27 Q. At page 734, in that email to Ms Croghan, copied into 28 Mr McAllum, where you say: 29 30 Mat and I have been in lengthy discussion 31 with regards to the formulation of this 32 claim ... 33 34 You say that's got nothing to do with any work that your 35 company has done on the Cornubia house? 36 A. Not that I can recall, no. 37 38 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. Commissioner, they're my 39 questions. 40 41 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Mr Nicoll, some of the people 42 represented here may want to ask you further questions. If 43 so, that will take place on Friday and you will be informed 44 if it is necessary, and a convenient time will be worked 45 out. Thanks for attending today. You can leave the 46 witness box now. 47 A. Thank you, Commissioner.


1 2 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 3 4 THE COMMISSIONER: Is this a convenient time between 5 witnesses to adjourn? 6 7 MS McNAUGHTON: It may be convenient to adjourn for the 8 morning tea adjournment. 9 10 THE COMMISSIONER: The hearing will resume at 25 to 12. 11 12 SHORT ADJOURNMENT 13 14 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton? 15 16 MS McNAUGHTON: Commissioner, Mr Elliott will be taking 17 the next few witnesses. 18 19 MR ELLIOTT: Commissioner, the next witness is 20 Mr Considine. 21 22 BEVERIDGE CONSIDINE, sworn: [11.40am] 23 24 <EXAMINATION BY MR ELLIOTT: 25 26 MR ELLIOTT: Q. Mr Considine, what's your full name? 27 A. Colin Beveridge Considine. 28 29 Q. And you're a resident of Queensland? 30 A. Yes, I am. 31 32 Q. You're a plumber? 33 A. Yes, I am. 34 35 Q. Do you know David Hanna at all? 36 A. I know of David Hanna, yes. 37 38 Q. Do you know him personally or socially? 39 A. No, I do not. 40 41 Q. How long have you been a plumber for? 42 A. Too long. 36 years. 43 44 Q. Were you employed for a period of time by a company 45 called Nicoll Industries? 46 A. Yes, I was. 47

.15/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 201 C B CONSIDINE (Mr Elliott) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Q. In 2013? 2 A. Correct. 3 4 Q. In 2013, while you were at Nicoll Industries, did you 5 work on the Orion Pad 2 project at Springfield? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 8 Q. Between what period, roughly, did you work on that 9 site? 10 A. That job, we started that roughly - I think it was 11 3 May - Wednesday, 3 May. I'm pretty clear on that date. 12 And we finished that, it was handed over, October 9 or 10. 13 I know that very well because I was going on four weeks 14 holiday directly after that. 15 16 Q. While you were working on the Mirvac project at Orion, 17 did you meet Mr McAllum? 18 A. Yes, I did, the first day. 19 20 Q. Had you met him before? 21 A. No, I had not. 22 23 Q. What did you understand his position to be at the 24 Orion Pad 2 site? 25 A. He was the overseeing supervisor. There were three 26 people there that I understood were the management: Peter 27 the foreman, Marco, the site supervisor, and then he was 28 the next layer above him. 29 30 Q. Did you see Mr McAllum frequently at the Mirvac site? 31 A. Initially, I saw him a bit, but when I got stuck into 32 my work, I didn't see too much of the site management. 33 34 Q. At some stage during your time at the Orion Pad 2 35 project, did someone talk to you about working on a 36 residential property at Cornubia? 37 A. Yes. What - the chain of events was that the job was 38 starting to slow down with wet weather. The structural 39 steel manufacturers had a lot of their gear laying around 40 on the job there, so we were being slowed up and 41 I mentioned to Lucas that, "Mate, you're going to have to 42 find us other job to start shortly because I'm going to be 43 doing nothing", and then in a couple of days he rang me 44 back to say, "This is a house job that you're going to be 45 going to on the Monday", whatever day it was. 46 47 Q. What work were you told needed to be done at the


1 house? 2 A. Lucas wasn't 100 per cent sure on it. He just said, 3 "Go out to this job on Monday. Mat McAllum will meet you 4 out on site and he'll run you through the job". 5 6 Q. Did he tell you - please don't say the address - but 7 he obviously told you where to go? 8 A. Yes. Yes. 9 10 Q. Did he tell you whose house it was? 11 A. No, he didn't. He just said that there's a house that 12 Mat McAllum is looking after and off you go and do whatever 13 has to be done. 14 15 Q. Did you then go to the site? 16 A. Yes, I did, yes. 17 18 Q. Was Mr McAllum there? 19 A. He was. 20 21 Q. Did you have a discussion about what work needed to be 22 done? 23 A. Yes, we did. 24 25 Q. What did he say to you? 26 A. Well, when I got there, it was a house that was at 27 frame-up stage, the roof was on, unslabbed drainage was all 28 done and I thought, "Yeah, this one's going to be a nice 29 sweet little job, I'm not going to have to do too much". 30 31 Q. Do you recall when this was? 32 A. I think it would have been - early June-ish was the 33 first part of my work to set the Orion pads, which was all 34 on the slab work with the Hog's Breath, and that was pretty 35 much three to four weeks worth of work that we did 36 consistently there and then the weather started to go south 37 and - yeah. 38 39 Q. Did Mr McAllum give you any materials or plans or 40 other information? 41 A. He handed me some - he handed me some drawings. They 42 were just basically floor plans of the house, I recall, and 43 we walked through the - walked through the house and he 44 pointed out the concrete floors that were just recently 45 polished and not to go near it and, you know, work around 46 them, you know, all that sort of jazz, and he mentioned 47 that the lady of the house had a lot of the fixture details


1 for me and that was critical for me to actually do what 2 I had to do. 3 4 Q. Did he give you some information about where the 5 fixtures were going to be installed? 6 A. He pointed out the bathrooms and the like and, 7 basically, it was something along the lines of, you know, 8 "Just liaise with the lady of house. She's got all the 9 details. They've done a lot of prior work to working out 10 what they want." 11 12 Q. Was the lady of the house there on that occasion? 13 A. I think Jenny was there. I think she came out about, 14 oh, a quarter past eight, something like that; she'd just 15 taken the kids off. We were there, like, at seven o'clock, 16 you know, quite early, and we had quite a bit of time there 17 before she showed up. 18 19 Q. Was anyone else there? 20 A. No, it was just Mat and myself. 21 22 Q. Were you told anything about the quality of the 23 fixtures that would be installed on the property? 24 A. When I pulled up at the site and saw the size of the 25 house, I thought to myself, "Well, it's either going to be 26 top-line fixtures and fittings or they've overspent and I'm 27 going to get real budget priced stuff." And it turned out 28 to be top-of-the-line fixtures and stuff. 29 30 Q. That was the first day you were on-site? 31 A. That's correct, yes. 32 33 Q. And then did you go back the following day? 34 A. Yes, that was on my first day there. I was probably 35 there for that week and a half, maybe almost the second 36 week, doing the entire internal pipe system installed to 37 the timber frames. 38 39 Q. Was Mr McAllum there on those occasions? 40 A. No, I very rarely saw him. I think it was about three 41 times in the whole time I was there that he came down. 42 43 Q. What about Mrs Hanna or Mr Hanna? 44 A. I quite often - I quite often saw Mrs Hanna in the 45 mornings. As my friend earlier alluded to, I was quite 46 sweet on her coffee, she was quite nice, but yeah, but she 47 would come out and have - like, if I had questions that


1 arose from the works the day before, I'd talk to her about 2 it. She'd make some phone calls and, you know, things would 3 get sorted. 4 5 Q. Did you speak regularly with Mr Nicoll about the job? 6 A. Not really, actually, because our working relationship 7 was pretty much, "Col, go and do it", and we had that 8 relationship, because I can do the job, he knows I can do 9 the job, and we just work like that. 10 11 Q. Did you understand from your first day on the job that 12 the house was owned by the Hannas? 13 A. No, I actually - I actually thought it was - 14 initially, when I first was going there, I thought it might 15 have been Mat's house and then when he showed up and 16 started talking about it and starting saying "clients", 17 I thought, "Oh yeah, it must be someone from the Mirvac 18 world that they're doing", given the size of the house. 19 20 Q. You met Mrs Hanna on the first day? 21 A. Yes, yes, I did, yes. 22 23 Q. Did you have any understanding as to what she did or 24 where she came from? 25 A. Not initially, but during the couple of days of 26 talking to her in the morning about organising stuff, she 27 did - one morning she did lament about having to make all 28 the phone calls and not being able to have it directly 29 sorted and said something about her husband being away at 30 Union meetings and whatnot all of the time and then 31 I thought, "Oh, okay, so it's not a Mirvac house, it's 32 someone else." 33 34 Q. Can you recall when that occurred? 35 A. Oh, that was - that would have been within the first 36 two weeks of myself being there, because I was talking to 37 her a lot initially about, you know, "What's the tapware?", 38 you know, "Where is it going?", "Have you changed your 39 mind?", this and that sort of thing. Initially, there was 40 a lot of chitchat about that sort of stuff. 41 42 Q. Did you mention that to Mr Nicoll? 43 A. About the changes? 44 45 Q. Yes, about the house apparently being owned by a 46 Union person? 47 A. Not really because, like, I didn't really care,


1 seriously. I mean, I was just there doing what I wanted to 2 do, so, you know, like, in terms of putting the pipework in 3 and, you know, whoever owned it, I really couldn't 4 care less. 5 6 Q. While you were doing this work were there other trades 7 present? 8 A. No, that was the surprising thing. There was no-one 9 else there, I had the run of the place and that was really 10 good. I saw, oh, one occasion an air conditioner bloke 11 showed up to have a look at something that had been put 12 inside and, you know, I had a bit of a conversation with 13 him, but towards the end of the rough-in stage the 14 bricklayers were coming in soon after, because I had to do 15 work on the outside walls, so I had to get all that done 16 and then pretty much after I'd done what I'd done at the 17 rough-in stage, other trades followed in after me. 18 19 Q. You did the rough-in stage? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Did you go back and to the Orion project for a while? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. And then, in due course, did you come back to the 26 property at Cornubia to do some or other work? 27 A. Yes, to fit off the fixtures. 28 29 Q. In between the rough-in work and the fit-out work, did 30 things go smoothly on the Mirvac site at Orion? 31 A. Yes. Well, that time I was away the steel fixers and 32 whatnot had actually got all their framework off the ground 33 and up on the roof, so it was more of a clear site, so 34 I got a lot more of a clear run on the site, and so then, 35 you know, I'm digging away and at one stage some Union 36 blokes came on to the job. 37 38 Q. This is the job at Orion? 39 A. At Orion Pad, yes. They came out. You know, I was 40 still half expecting it, but, you know, with that sort of 41 work you expect to see them and, you know, it was just odd 42 that one of them started walking toward me and his mate 43 just called him away and just said, "We don't need to talk 44 to him, we're going over there." There was a whole heap of 45 plasterers and wall framers and painters and they seemed to 46 spend a lot of time with them. 47


1 Q. Could you tell what Union they were from? 2 A. I think they were CFMEU because they just had the 3 big - like, the black hats and just the high-viz stuff with 4 "CFMEU" on it. 5 6 Q. Did they say anything to you or about you? 7 A. No, they didn't. Like, probably from here to the 8 Commissioner away is where the bloke was and then they just 9 spun around and walked away and I didn't see them after 10 that. 11 12 Q. Did you see what they were doing on the site or why 13 they were there? 14 A. They were talking to a lot of trades, but it was 15 really the plastering, painting and wall framing trades 16 that they were talking to. 17 18 Q. Yes. Was there anything that was said by them or 19 either of the Union representatives on that day that led 20 you to think there was some connection between the 21 Orion Pad 2 Project and the Cornubia house? 22 A. No, again, they didn't actually physically come and 23 talk to me. I heard the guy say, "You know, we don't need 24 to go to him" and so I had no conversation with the dudes 25 and I was quite happy about that. 26 27 MR ELLIOTT: Thank you, Mr Considine. 28 29 THE COMMISSIONER: That is the questioning? 30 31 MR ELLIOTT: That is the evidence, yes. 32 33 THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. 34 35 Q. Thanks very much, Mr Considine, for coming in. Some 36 of the people represented here may want to ask you some 37 questions on Friday. If that happens, you'll be informed. 38 Are you available on Friday? 39 A. I could be, but, Commissioner, is it possible to ask 40 these people here now whether they do want to ask, because 41 I've actually got to work down in Sydney and I'd much 42 prefer to get going. 43 44 THE COMMISSIONER: Not all of them are here. Mr Glynn, 45 are you in a position to say whether you want to ask any 46 questions of Mr Considine? 47


1 MR GLYNN: No, Mr Commissioner. 2 3 THE COMMISSIONER: You don't want to? Very well, that's a 4 good start. Mr McCarthy? 5 6 MR McCARTHY: No, Commissioner. 7 8 THE COMMISSIONER: No questions? Is Mr Jones here? 9 10 MR JONES: No, thank you, Commissioner. 11 12 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Evans? Mr Kent? 13 14 MR KENT: We have no questions, thank you, Commissioner. 15 16 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Agius isn't here, but I would be 17 surprised if he had any questions. I don't think 18 Ms Graham's interests are affected by Mr Considine's 19 evidence. I think it is fairly safe to assume you won't be 20 required, but I can't excuse you just know. We will make 21 some further inquiries and if necessary - when are you 22 going down to Sydney? 23 A. I'd like to try and get back before Friday because 24 I've got someone filling in my space and I'd -- 25 26 Q. For example, tomorrow morning at say 9.30, would you 27 be available then? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. I will see what I can do. I can't, as I say, excuse 31 you right now, but the chances of you not returning seem to 32 be quite high. 33 A. Thank you. 34 35 THE COMMISSIONER: Thanks very much for coming along to 36 give your evidence, Mr Considine. You are excused from the 37 witness box for the time being. 38 39 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 40 41 THE COMMISSIONER: Could you make sure, Mr Elliott, that 42 inquiries are made of those who are not here so that 43 Mr Considine's fate can be cleared up? 44 45 MR ELLIOTT: Yes, Commissioner, we'll do that. 46 Commissioner, Mr Carter is the next witness. 47


1 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Carter. 2 3 <BENJAMIN JAMES CARTER, affirmed: [11.52am] 4 5 <EXAMINATION BY MR ELLIOTT: 6 7 MR ELLIOTT: Q. Mr Carter, what is your full name? 8 A. Benjamin James Carter. 9 10 Q. You're a resident of Queensland? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. You are the CEO of Value Added Engineering Group? 14 A. Correct. 15 16 Q. Is one of the companies in that group Value Added 17 Construction Pty Ltd? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. What business does that company operate? 21 A. Value Added Construction undertakes large commercial 22 and high-density residential construction work in the 23 air-conditioning sector or mechanical services. 24 25 Q. Was that the position in 2013 as well? 26 A. Correct. 27 28 Q. How many staff does the company have working for it? 29 A. Right now, around 165 to 170. 30 31 Q. Are any of those staff operating under an EBA? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. Does the EBA relate to a particular Union? 35 A. Yes. We negotiate our EBA with the CEPU, just the 36 Plumbers' Union. 37 38 Q. In 2013, Value Added Construction performed some work 39 for Mirvac on a project at Springwood; is that right? 40 A. No, Springfield. 41 42 Q. Springfield. 43 A. Yes, that's correct, on the Orion Pad 2 project, yes. 44 45 Q. Yes. I think the question was: 46 47 ... performed some work for Mirvac on a

.15/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 209 B J CARTER (Mr Elliott) Transcript produced by DTI

1 project at Springwood? 2 3 No, Springfield. 4 5 And that was Orion Pad 2 project? 6 A. Correct. 7 8 Q. Can you recall when you were invited to submit a 9 tender for that work? 10 A. Yes. I believe it was in February of 2013, 11 potentially late in the month, when we were asked to - or 12 whether we were interested in submitting a tender. 13 14 Q. Was that request made by a letter sent by Mr McAllum 15 from Mirvac? 16 A. No, the initial contact was an email from a gentleman 17 by the name of Russell Moran at Mirvac who recommended that 18 we give a tender list to Mr McAllum. 19 20 Q. Can I just ask that you be shown volume 5 of the MFI. 21 Mr Carter, you will see at the bottom right-hand corner 22 there's some pagination. I just want to start with a 23 document at 1398. 24 A. Mmm-hmm. 25 26 Q. This is a letter of 7 February 2013 from Mr McAllum, 27 project manager at Mirvac, to the VAE Group, to your 28 attention. Did you receive communication from someone 29 other than Mr McAllum about this project before this time? 30 A. Yes. I had an email from Mr Russell Moran who 31 indicated or suggested to Mr McAllum to say that we would 32 be a good choice to tender the project. 33 34 Q. What position did Mr Moran have at Mirvac? 35 A. He was the services manager at Mirvac. 36 37 Q. Had you dealt with him previously? 38 A. Yes. We'd tendered previous jobs to him that he was 39 involved in at Mirvac. 40 41 Q. And what about Mr McAllum, had you dealt with him 42 before? 43 A. No. 44 45 Q. In due course a tender or a quote was prepared by VAE? 46 A. Correct. 47


1 Q. Do we find a copy of that at page 1399 of this bundle? 2 A. That's correct. 3 4 Q. There were various components of the quote split up 5 according to the different phases of work and the total of 6 all of the amounts was about a little over $500,000? 7 A. Correct. 8 9 Q. Can I just ask where that sized project fits in your 10 business? Is that a standard project, a big project, a 11 small one? 12 A. No, it's kind of - at that point in time it was on the 13 small to medium size. 14 15 Q. Did you have any discussions with Mr McAllum between 16 the invitation to tender and the submission of your tender? 17 A. Not that I can recall. 18 19 Q. With anyone else from Mirvac? 20 A. Not that I can recall. 21 22 Q. And in due course a formal subcontract was entered 23 into between Mirvac and your company? 24 A. That's correct. 25 26 Q. I think you'll find a copy of that at the same bundle, 27 1403? 28 A. Correct. 29 30 Q. The contract itself was dated 11 June and the 31 subcontract sum was $535,725? 32 A. Correct. 33 34 Q. And the subcontract contained provision for the making 35 of variation claims? 36 A. Correct. 37 38 Q. As I read the documents it would appear that work 39 commenced by your company before the formal contract date? 40 A. Yes. My understanding is that we had a letter of 41 intent, but it's a design and construct project and what 42 that means is that we have a lot of long lead-time items, 43 so it's not unusual for us to start engineering and 44 drafting works, to be in a position to order those long 45 lead-time items prior to I guess getting the documentation 46 sorted out. 47


1 Q. The first invoice from your company to Mirvac on the 2 project seems to be dated 21 May 2013? 3 A. Correct. 4 5 Q. Can you recall, by reference to that date, when you 6 started working on the project? 7 A. I don't recall the exact date. I only know that from 8 searching through my emails, an email providing the 9 evidence requested by the Commission, that we definitely 10 started engineering work some time in April. 11 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. Or before - that's the first ones I can see. 14 15 Q. Who from Mirvac informed you that your bid, if you 16 like, had been accepted? 17 A. They didn't inform me, they informed my chief 18 estimator, David Carr, that we had been successful with the 19 work. 20 21 Q. Did you have any discussion with Adam Moore from 22 Mirvac in relation to the terms of your quote or the terms 23 of the contract? 24 A. No. 25 26 Q. What about Mr McAllum, was there any negotiation or 27 liaison between you and him in that period? 28 A. Yes, absolutely. There was - the Mirvac process was 29 that once you sort of had tendered and if they were 30 interested in your quote, it didn't necessarily mean you'd 31 won it, that you would go through, like, some 32 pre-qualification checklists and commercial terms and 33 things like that, but my understanding is also we got a 34 letter of intent on this job and there were some terms that 35 needed sorting out on that as well. 36 37 Q. Could I ask you to put away volume 5 and for you to be 38 shown volume 1 of Cornubia MFI. Mr Carter, could I ask you 39 to turn please to page 185 of this volume. This is an 40 email of 7 May 2013 from Mr McAllum to you, "Subject" line, 41 "Mechanical Price - House at Cornubia". You will see that 42 the email indicates a file had been sent to you for 43 downloading? 44 A. Correct. 45 46 Q. And the subject matter continued: 47


1 Ben, 2 3 Can you please provide price to supply and 4 install standard Mechanical services for 5 the attached property. 6 7 Had there been any discussion between you and Mr McAllum 8 about this matter before this email was received? 9 A. Not to my knowledge. 10 11 Q. As you recall it, this was the first approach by 12 anyone in relation to work on this property? 13 A. I believe so. 14 15 Q. The document, you will see, where it refers to the 16 download of the file, says: 17 18 Your file will expire after 7 days ... 19 20 We don't actually have that attachment any more. Could I 21 just show you some other documents. Would you go back in 22 the bundle to page 170. You will see, again on 7 May, 23 earlier in the day than the email we were just looking at 24 to you, it looks as though Mr McAllum had a copy of some 25 plans sent from a Mirvac machine to his email address and 26 then you'll see in the pages which follow those plans. Are 27 you able to recall whether the plans that you were sent on 28 7 May were the plans that appear from page 171 and carry on 29 to page 181? 30 A. The plans definitely look like the ones sent but 31 I can't guarantee that we got all of those documents, but 32 it does appear to be a set of plans that I downloaded. 33 34 Q. Could I then ask you to go to page 188. You will see 35 at the bottom of the page a copy of the email we were just 36 looking at. Then you respond relatively quickly, a minute 37 or so later: 38 39 No problem 40 41 How quick do you need a price 42 43 Not that much later on in time Mr McAllum emails back: 44 45 ASAP. 46 47 And then you respond:


1 2 Just in a meeting -will call you shortly 3 4 Do you recall what happened then? Did you have a 5 discussion with Mr McAllum? 6 A. Yes, I spoke with Mr McAllum. 7 8 Q. What happened during that discussion? 9 A. I asked him if - I asked to meet with him to 10 understand the requirements of the job so I could formulate 11 a price. There's many ways to air-condition a building or 12 a house, so I wanted to understand what his client was 13 looking for. 14 15 Q. Was there any discussion about who his client was at 16 that time? 17 A. I can't recall the exact words he used but at that 18 first meeting I actually thought it was either for someone 19 in Mirvac or authorised by Mirvac, but it was kind of - 20 sorry, that wasn't the first phone call and then when I met 21 him I asked him directly, "Is this for somebody in Mirvac?" 22 And he said, "No". 23 24 Q. Did you ask who it was for? 25 A. Well, I didn't go on to ask that. I did ask if it was 26 for Adam Moore and he said no and then the plans, I think 27 from memory, had Mr and Mrs Hanna's name on the bottom of 28 them, so I assumed it was for a Mr and Mrs Hanna. 29 30 Q. Did those names mean anything to you? 31 A. No. 32 33 Q. Did you know of a David Hanna? 34 A. No. 35 36 Q. Why did you ask Mr McAllum if it was for Mr Moore? 37 A. I don't know. In the first - only that in the first 38 phone call I didn't understand what he'd said correctly and 39 so yeah, I was a bit nervous about who the house might be 40 for, so I asked. I somehow from that conversation, I can't 41 remember the exact words, I formed an opinion that it could 42 potentially be for him. 43 44 Q. By the time of this meeting with Mr McAllum had you 45 seen the plans with the Hannas name on it? 46 A. Yes, I downloaded those and I went and took those 47 plans to the meeting to discuss what he was looking to


1 achieve with the plans. 2 3 Q. Did you ask him who the Hannas were? 4 A. I didn't, no, I just assumed that they were a client 5 of Mirvac's. 6 7 Q. Did you ask him why he was playing a role in the 8 construction of this house? 9 A. No, I didn't, not to my memory. I just formed the 10 impression from the conversation that it was a project for 11 Mirvac and that he was project managing it. 12 13 Q. Did he tell you he was project managing it? 14 A. I can't recall him exactly saying that, but I formed 15 that impression. 16 17 Q. During this first meeting - before I go to that, I am 18 sorry, where did this first meeting take place with 19 Mr McAllum? 20 A. At 340 Adelaide Street, in a coffee shop underneath 21 Mirvac's offices, we had a coffee and talked about the 22 plans. 23 24 Q. Can you recall what was discussed about the plans? 25 A. Just basically what type of airconditioning he was 26 looking for. 27 28 Q. Was it a technical discussion about the sort of 29 services that might be required for a house of this kind? 30 A. Correct, yes. 31 32 Q. What happened next? 33 A. I sat on it for a few weeks and didn't do anything 34 with it, from memory, but then I ended up contacting 35 Gray Brothers through a person in my business who had a 36 relationship with Gray Brothers, they do a fair bit of work 37 for us, and asked them for a price. 38 39 Q. Can I just ask why you sought a price from 40 Gray Brothers? 41 A. Gray Brothers do a lot of our smaller work for us, so 42 we do a full range of jobs, from a couple of hundred 43 dollars to jobs for multiple millions, and Gray Brothers 44 are a reputable subcontractor that do good work for us. 45 46 Q. You have your own airconditioning installing 47 employees?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. What would dictate whether you use your own employees 4 to do a job or instead seek to subcontract it to someone 5 like Gray Brothers? 6 A. Yes, for that style of job we're not very cost 7 competitive, whereas that's Gray Brothers forte, so it made 8 sense, to keep the costs down, to use them. 9 10 Q. So you can subcontract them at a margin of your own? 11 A. Correct, that was the idea. I'd get them to do the 12 job and put a margin on top. 13 14 Q. It is more competitive than using your own team who 15 are more new to the commercial sector; is that right? 16 A. In that style of work, yes. It's about mitigating 17 your risk and making sure that you don't have a big cost 18 blow-out if guys go off on a tangent. 19 20 Q. Who did you contact at Gray Brothers? Did you contact 21 anyone? 22 A. No. I asked, from memory, one of my employees who 23 knew Steve Gray at Gray Brothers very well and I think 24 that's who got contacted. I can't remember exactly but 25 I think that's who got contacted. 26 27 Q. Was that employee Gary Clark? 28 A. Correct. 29 30 Q. What position did he hold? 31 A. He's one of our service account managers. 32 33 Q. And did he, in due course, tell you that he had 34 obtained a quote from Gray Brothers? 35 A. Yes, he sent that through to me. 36 37 Q. Could I just ask you to go in that same bundle to 38 page 269. I will just ask you to ignore the handwriting 39 for a moment. Is this the quote that was drawn to your 40 attention? 41 A. Yes, it is. 42 43 Q. When you received it what did you do with it? 44 A. I went and saw Mr McAllum and discussed it with him. 45 46 Q. Did you give him a copy of the document? 47 A. I can't recall; I may have.


1 2 Q. What was said during the discussion? 3 A. He was initially surprised by the price, I guess, from 4 my interpretation of the meeting, in that we discussed ways 5 of looking at the cost and I suggested that they could buy 6 the units direct and to save on the double mark-up from 7 both Gray Brothers and myself, and that because of our 8 buying power in large residential commercial projects, that 9 I could possibly source a better price than what 10 Gray Brothers had got for the units. 11 12 Q. You're talking there about the unit cost as opposed to 13 the installation cost? 14 A. Correct, the installation cost was what it was. 15 16 Q. Did you have a discussion about sourcing a price for 17 the airconditioning units themselves? 18 A. I can't recall the exact conversation, but from that 19 meeting I went and sourced a price on the airconditioning 20 units separately because then I could get the price of the 21 works down. 22 23 Q. Could I ask you to go to page 326 of this, bundle? 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. You will see there are two emails. If we start with 27 the bottom email, 6 June 2013 from Mr McAllum to you, 28 "Project price": 29 30 Are you able to confirm the revised price 31 as discussed. I would like to finalise 32 payment and arrange delivery asap. 33 34 Can I just ask, as you understood this email, was 35 Mr McAllum asking you about a revised price for the 36 installation cost and the units or just the units that you 37 were looking to source through? 38 A. No, just the units. 39 40 Q. Am I right in understanding that at about this time, 41 or shortly thereafter, a quote for the units was obtained 42 from a company called Daikin? 43 A. Correct. 44 45 Q. You will see that at the top of this page 326 there's 46 an email back from you to Mr McAllum: 47


1 Who do you want the quote addressed to? 2 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. By this stage you knew that the Hannas owned the 6 house? 7 A. Only that their name was on the plan. 8 9 Q. Why did you ask who the quote should be addressed to? 10 A. I wasn't sure whether Mirvac was going to be paying 11 for it, or whether the Hannas, or the client, I didn't know 12 who was going to be paying for it. 13 14 Q. Had someone said something to give you the impression 15 that Mirvac might be paying for the units? 16 A. No, it's just purely the impression I formed, but 17 I guess I thought that perhaps the Hannas may be paying for 18 that directly at that point. 19 20 Q. Could we just go quickly to page 333. You will see 21 there an email from yourself to Mr McAllum attaching the 22 quote. The quote appears on the following page from 23 Daikin, 11 June 2013. You obtained the quote from Daikin, 24 forwarded it on to Mr McAllum and in your email you say: 25 26 I will get payment details - can Credit 27 card be used? 28 29 Had you heard back at all from Mr McAllum about who was to 30 be invoiced for the units? 31 A. The only thing I can say at that point is I thought 32 that potentially the client was going to pay for it 33 directly. 34 35 Q. Yes. Just on that same subject, at page 339 we see 36 your email of 13 June, at the bottom of the page that we 37 looked at a moment ago. Mr McAllum writes back: 38 39 Can we pay in person tomorrow or send 40 cheque? 41 42 And then you write back: 43 44 I am just checking - if not I will purchase 45 and invoice you - so you can pay by cheque. 46 47 Just taking that in steps, in the middle email, when


1 Mr McAllum says, "Can we pay in person", who did you 2 understand the "we" to be referring to? 3 A. Again, at that point I either assumed it was "we" as 4 in Mirvac or "we" as in Mirvac and client. I wasn't - for 5 me to say, "I am just checking - if not I will purchase and 6 invoice you", makes me assume that I actually thought 7 Mirvac might be still paying for it at that point. 8 9 Q. Can you go forward to page 344, 14 June 2013, you 10 email Mr McAllum. Again, payment still seems to be an 11 issue: 12 13 ... let me know how you want to proceed 14 with payment - I will then contact a subby 15 to pick up units and install for you. 16 17 A. Mmm-hmm. 18 19 Q. Did you have in mind using Gray Brothers for that 20 purpose? 21 A. For the installation? 22 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. Definitely. 25 26 Q. Had you spoken to or arranged for anyone from 27 Gray Brothers to be spoken to about that job? 28 A. I don't know if I spoke or whether I sent an email or 29 I asked Gary to speak with them, I can't recall, but they 30 definitely would have been notified to get ready to do the 31 job. 32 33 Q. Yes. Could you go forward please to page 360. There 34 is a string of emails on this page. Could you just focus 35 attention on the middle email. You will see that's an 36 email from Ms Jacobs of Daikin to Mr McAllum: 37 38 Hi Matt, 39 40 Can you please confirm when delivery is 41 required for David Hanna? 42 43 It would appear that Mr McAllum has then forwarded that on 44 to you and he has asked you: 45 46 Can you confirm delivery date. Anytime is 47 fine with us.


1 2 Is it fair to say that by this date you understood that 3 Mr Hanna was the client? 4 A. Only that he was the same person written on the plans. 5 I had no idea of his position within the Union. 6 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. Or that he was actually in the Union. 9 10 Q. Yes. Could we just move forward to page 372. You 11 will see there again another email chain. At the top of 12 the page Mr McAllum writes to you on 18 June: 13 14 They are currently sealing the floor. The 15 earliest we will be able to get in and 16 start will be Friday. Anytime after this 17 is fine. 18 19 You will see that he has sent that after you had sent him 20 an email earlier that day, or the previous day, saying: 21 22 Have contacted the installers - will advise 23 tomorrow. 24 25 Is it fair to say that by 17 June you or someone from your 26 office had been in discussions with Gray Brothers about 27 doing the installation work? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. And they had arranged for a price to be obtained from 31 Gray Brothers for that purpose? 32 A. Yes, it was in the original quote that you showed 33 before. 34 35 Q. Yes. Could we just go back to that document at 36 page 269. Are you making reference there to some of the 37 handwriting? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. This isn't your handwriting is it? 41 A. No, it doesn't appear to be. 42 43 Q. Can you recognise from the handwriting the figure that 44 you were quoted by Gray Brothers for doing the installation 45 work for the airconditioning units that were to be 46 purchased from Daikin? 47 A. Sorry, can you repeat the question?


1 2 Q. Do you recognise from the handwriting the figure that 3 you were quoted by Gray Brothers for doing the installation 4 work? 5 A. It appears to be $11,365 plus GST. 6 7 Q. That was a price that you had obtained from 8 Gray Brothers in the course of arranging for them to start 9 the installation works in about mid-June 2013? 10 A. That's correct. If you look at the quote you can see 11 that they've itemised the cost of the units. 12 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. So that's how - and option 2 was taken, so the amount 15 is the quoted price minus the cost of the 18 kilowatt and 16 the 16 kilowatt Daikin unit. 17 18 Q. Yes. Having received that quote from Gray Brothers, 19 did you then give Mr McAllum a price for installation? 20 A. At that point he had that quote, so he knew what it 21 was going to cost. 22 23 Q. Did you talk to him about that? 24 A. I can't recall exactly talking to him about it, but I 25 was under the impression at that point that we would still 26 be - we would be paid for the cost of the installation plus 27 a mark-up for our company by Mirvac. 28 29 Q. Did you price the job for Mr McAllum on that basis? 30 A. Correct. 31 32 Q. What did you tell him your margin would be? 33 A. 10 per cent. 34 35 Q. Was that a conversation you had with him at around 36 this time, that is, around mid to late June 2013? 37 A. Yes. I can't recall talking about the 10 per cent but 38 that's kind of an industry standard acceptable mark-up, so 39 whether that was discussed or whether that was implied 40 I can't recall. 41 42 Q. Were you subsequently told anything about who would 43 pay for the airconditioning units themselves? 44 A. Prior to the installation I was under the impression 45 that Mirvac was paying for the installation of the units. 46 47 Q. Can I ask you to put away volume 1 and I will show you


1 some documents in volume 2. Could you go please to 2 page 411. 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. You will see there, towards the top of the page, an 6 email from yourself to Mr McAllum of 20 June 2013: 7 8 Mat 9 10 Gray [Brothers] ... are now ready to start 11 the install tomorrow. 12 13 Have given him your details to contact you 14 directly. 15 16 You then give him Mr Gray's - from Gray Brothers - phone 17 number and Mr McAllum writes back: 18 19 Thanks Ben. Steve is all good for 20 tomorrow. 21 22 Do you understand "Steve" to be Steve Gray? 23 A. I would suggest that's correct. 24 25 Q. To your understanding were the airconditioning units 26 then installed by Steve Gray from Gray Brothers? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. How did you come to know that had been done? 30 A. Well, (a), Mr McAllum didn't ring me and complain that 31 it hadn't been done, and (b), I either would have received 32 a phone call to say that it was done or I would have 33 received an invoice to say it was done. 34 35 Q. Were those works done in June and July 2013? 36 A. I think that's around the time, yes. 37 38 Q. While we're in this part of the bundle, could you just 39 go ahead to page 415. Could we just follow this email 40 chain through. You will see at the bottom of 415 a 41 representative from Daikin sends an email to Jenny and the 42 "Subject" line is "Credit Card Form". Do you see that? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. At the top of the page and going over to the bottom of 46 page 414, do you see a copy of an email from a Jenny Hanna 47 to the Daikin representative:


1 2 Hi Jess, 3 4 I just faxed it please advised once 5 received. 6 7 Then in the middle of page 414, an email from Ms Jacobs to 8 Jenny Hanna: 9 10 Hi Jenny, 11 12 Received and processed successfully. 13 14 Did you observe these emails in this email chain when it 15 came to you? 16 A. Yes, eventually they've come to me, yes. 17 18 Q. Did you understand from that that the Hannas had paid 19 for the units? 20 A. From this, yes, it appeared that they had, yes. 21 22 Q. Was it clear to you by this point that the Hannas 23 owned the house at Cornubia? 24 A. Again, they were on the plans, from day one it 25 appeared to be that. 26 27 Q. Did you then have a conversation with Mr McAllum about 28 whether these works could be claimed for by VAE in some way 29 and what was said? 30 A. I told Mr McAllum the magnitude of what the 31 installation had cost and he indicated that he would get us 32 payment, or give us the documentation to get payment. 33 34 Q. Did he say what the documentation would comprise? 35 A. At some point he did, yes. At some point he indicated 36 that he wanted to pay for the units - sorry, not the units, 37 the installation of the units via - well, he wanted to 38 offset the payment, is a better way to put it, the 39 installation of the units by providing variations on the 40 Orion Pad 2 site project. 41 42 Q. Could I ask you to put away volume 2 and be shown 43 volume 3. 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. When Mr McAllum said that to you what did you say to 47 him?


1 A. I can't recall exactly but I do remember feeling very 2 uncomfortable with the proposition. 3 4 Q. Do you recall whether you said that to him? 5 A. I do - I don't know the exact words, but I asked him 6 if the job was a legitimate Mirvac job. 7 8 Q. What did he say? 9 A. He confirmed that it was. 10 11 Q. As best you can recall, what was the exchange - 12 he said, you said? 13 A. I'd be purely speculating on exactly what was said, 14 but it's not usual for me to be asked to cover costs of one 15 job on to another. In this case, both jobs appeared to be 16 for Mirvac and I'd assumed that he had a budget problem or 17 something of that nature on the Hanna's house and 18 I remember him - I remember one piece of information was 19 that he indicated that he was well under budget on the 20 Pad sites project. 21 22 Q. What was it that had given you the impression, prior 23 to this conversation, that the Cornubia house was a Mirvac 24 project? 25 A. The documents came through exactly the same way as all 26 other tenders from Mirvac to that point in terms of through 27 their internal website, all documentation or communications 28 from Mr McAllum was through his Mirvac email address and 29 I specifically asked him, because I was - "uncomfortable" 30 is not the word, but at the start I was - what's the word 31 I'm looking for? I wasn't sure who the job was for after 32 the first conversation prior - after getting the house 33 plan. 34 35 Q. Did you think about asking anyone else from Mirvac 36 about the matter? 37 A. I didn't. I actually thought it was plausible that it 38 was a Mirvac job and the funny thing is I actually thought 39 Mr McAllum thought that as well. 40 41 Q. Am I right or wrong in thinking that Mirvac is not in 42 the business of constructing one-off residential 43 properties? 44 A. This was my first job with Mirvac, so I had no idea 45 what they do. 46 47 Q. Yes. Do you now have a better understanding?


1 A. Absolutely. 2 3 Q. Am I right or wrong in thinking that Mirvac is not in 4 the business of constructing one-off residential 5 properties? 6 A. I would suggest that's pretty clear, yes. 7 8 Q. But you say you didn't really appreciate that at the 9 time? 10 A. Well, this was my first ever job with Mirvac and, you 11 know, they're known as a large residential builder and yes, 12 I thought it was plausible that they could be building a 13 house for a client. 14 15 Q. Hadn't you done business before with Russell Moran 16 from Mirvac? 17 A. Correct, but not at Mirvac. 18 19 Q. Where did you know him from? 20 A. He used to work for Brookfield Multiplex and 21 I constructed two or three jobs with him when he was at 22 Multiplex and I was at a different company. 23 24 Q. The Orion Pad 2 project was your first job for Mirvac? 25 A. Correct. 26 27 Q. Could I ask you please to go to page 817 in this 28 bundle, volume 3 of Cornubia MFI-1. I'd just like to work 29 through this email with you. It is dated 30 July, from 30 Mr McAllum to you, copied to Natalie Croghan and the 31 "Subject" line is "Orion 2d Stage 2 - 32 Mechanical Variations". It says: 33 34 Ben, 35 36 As discussed could you please forward 37 variations for the following 38 39 And you'll then see that there are five numbered 40 paragraphs. All of the work descriptions sound as though 41 it is Orion Pad 2 work? 42 A. Correct. 43 44 Q. And then it says: 45 46 Total variations to date - $13500 47


1 Which is, essentially, the Gray Brothers price plus 2 10 per cent? 3 A. Yes, with a bit of extra timing on top of it, yes. 4 5 Q. What did you understand Mr McAllum was proposing 6 through this email? 7 A. Yes. Those variations listed are actual changes on 8 the job. 9 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. And my understanding was that Mr McAllum had valued 12 those variations in that way to offset the cost of the 13 Cornubia house. 14 15 Q. Did he tell you that he'd done that? 16 A. I can't recall the exact words he used but I was left 17 with that impression, yes. 18 19 Q. There was a conversation that you had with him before 20 this email? 21 A. Yes, there was. 22 23 Q. Did he tell that you this was the sort of email he was 24 going to be sending through? 25 A. He didn't tell me he was going to send it through an 26 email but I'd rung him and said that I needed $13,500 to 27 cover the costs and then that's how he proposed to, in my 28 opinion, pay for it. 29 30 Q. Yes. You will see that Ms Croghan is copied in on the 31 email. Did you have any discussions with her about this 32 matter? 33 A. No. 34 35 Q. Did you talk to her at all during the course of the 36 Pad 2 project? 37 A. I did only to talk about contract type items like 38 insurances and contract terms of the actual Orion Pad site 39 contract. 40 41 Q. Did you understand from this email and the 42 conversation that you had with Mr McAllum at around this 43 time, that he was proposing a mechanism that would involve 44 preparing variation documents for the Orion Pad 2 project, 45 such that the cost of installation of airconditioning in 46 the Cornubia house would be covered? 47 A. Yes, I formed the opinion that Mr McAllum had


1 nominated the costs on those changes to the Orion Pad sites 2 to offset the cost of the Cornubia house. 3 4 Q. Was that conversation that you had at around the time 5 of this email a separate conversation to the one I was 6 asking you questions about earlier when the subject of 7 payment for the installation costs was first raised with 8 Mr McAllum? 9 A. Correct, yes, that was a conversation that happened 10 within a day or two of that email. 11 12 Q. Yes. How did you feel about taking up or not taking 13 up this suggestion from Mr McAllum? 14 A. Extremely uncomfortable. 15 16 Q. Did you talk to anyone within VAE about it? 17 A. I did. 18 19 Q. Who did you talk to? 20 A. I ended up speaking to Graham Buderus who is the 21 Chairman at VAE. 22 23 Q. What did you discuss? 24 A. I suggested to him that, on face value, it would 25 appear that the variations we had been asked to invoice on 26 the Orion Pad sites project were to cover other works that 27 we'd done for Mirvac on a different site. 28 29 Q. What did he say? 30 A. I can remember one part of the conversation clearly. 31 He said that he didn't think that was a good idea and he 32 said, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks 33 like a duck, then it's probably a duck." And I said to 34 him, "I think it's a duck." 35 36 Q. Did you tell Mr McAllum you thought it was a duck? 37 A. No, because I wasn't 100 per cent. I still thought 38 that he was doing the work for Mirvac at that point. 39 40 Q. What did you say to Mr McAllum at this time about what 41 he was proposing? 42 A. I don't believe I had a conversation with him about 43 the variations after he submitted this. I can't recall 44 having one. I just felt uncomfortable about it and - yeah. 45 46 Q. The duck that you and your business partner were 47 talking about, tell me if I'm wrong, I may be wrong, I may


1 be right, is this the position, that the duck you were 2 identifying was that Mr McAllum was proposing to put in 3 place a number of variations under your Orion Pad 2 project 4 that would, in effect, cover the Cornubia airconditioning 5 installation costs? 6 A. That's certainly the impression I formed. 7 8 Q. Can I just ask you to go forward in volume 3 to 9 page 931. You will see there a purchase order from 10 VAE Group to Gray Brothers dated 13 August 2013? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. You will see that the amount claimed is the amount 14 that Gray Brothers had - the amount recognised as payable, 15 if the order were complied with, would involve payment of 16 the amount equal to the Gray Brothers quote? 17 A. Correct. 18 19 Q. The project address was given as 41 O'Connell Terrace, 20 Bowen Hills. Can you tell me why that project address was 21 given? 22 A. Yes, it's not actually the - that's the actual 23 project. 13 August was the day before I went overseas on a 24 family holiday, with my family, obviously, and in our 25 system if we don't allocate a purchase order to a job or to 26 an invoice then it can't be processed. Steve Gray or 27 Gray Brothers had done the work and so - and he had 28 actually been doing work on that job for us, so to get it 29 processed and to get sorted out at a later date, 30 I instructed the project manager to raise an order for that 31 amount. 32 33 Q. Who was the project manager? 34 A. Ben Getley. 35 36 Q. Is there some reason why you selected that address 37 rather than either Cornubia or Orion Pads 2? 38 A. Yes, there is. (a) Gray Brothers, I believe, had been 39 doing work for us on that job, and (b), we'd only just 40 formed the construction company, Value Added Construction, 41 to do construction work, and I don't believe he was linked 42 into that company, and (c), I didn't have a job set up for 43 the Cornubia house. 44 45 Q. Did you make a positive decision not to describe it as 46 relating to Orion Pads 2? 47 A. No, I don't think that was discussed. It was purely


1 administrative so that Steve's invoice could be processed. 2 3 Q. Mr McAllum had proposed that it be dealt with as if 4 conducted through the Orion Pads 2 project. Had you made a 5 decision by 13 August 2013 whether or not to deal with the 6 matter in the way Mr McAllum had suggested? 7 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. Could you 8 repeat the question? 9 10 Q. Mr McAllum had sent you the email, that we saw before, 11 proposing a series of variations that would together amount 12 to $13,500? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. You have told us what you understood that to be in 16 respect of and what was to be proposed. Had you formed a 17 view within VAE by 13 August 2013 whether or not to accept 18 Mr McAllum's proposal? 19 A. I formed the view not to accept it after that date 20 whilst I was on holidays. 21 22 Q. Can I just ask you to go forward in the bundle to 23 page 966. This is the Gray Brothers invoice of 20 August 24 2013 for the airconditioning installation cost? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. Am I correct in understanding that VAE paid that 28 invoice? 29 A. Definitely. 30 31 Q. Could you then go forward to page 975. You will see 32 two emails. Could we start at the bottom. This is 33 21 August 2014 from Mr Getley, the project manager at VAE, 34 to Mr McAllum, the "Subject" line is "Orion Springfield 35 Variations": 36 37 Hi Mat, 38 39 Please see attached the variations as 40 discussed. 41 42 Let us know if you need any further info. 43 44 And then, at the top of the page, Mr McAllum's response 45 later that day: 46 47 Thanks Ben. Can you delete HBC from the


1 description in V002 and re-send. 2 3 You will then see, if you go over the page to 976 and 4 follow through a number of pages, various letters from VAE 5 to Mr McAllum, all dated 20 August 2013, in respect of five 6 numbered variations. Do you see that? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. Those variations and the amounts correspond with the 10 terms of Mr McAllum's email that we looked at earlier today 11 of 13 July 2013? 12 A. Correct. 13 14 Q. Did you instruct Mr Getley to prepare these variation 15 materials? 16 A. I forwarded on Mr McAllum's email on the day that it 17 was received and asked him to process the documentation. 18 19 Q. Were you informed by Mr Getley that he had done as you 20 had asked? 21 A. No. 22 23 Q. When did you become aware that these variation 24 documents had been submitted to Mr McAllum? 25 A. I can't recall exactly, but when I was looking through 26 all of the material that I sent through to the Commission, 27 I was actually surprised to see that had been done. 28 I wasn't copied on that email. 29 30 Q. Is this the position, that you didn't know in 2013 31 that these VAE documents had been sent? 32 A. No. At the time I was on holidays. 33 34 Q. Do you know whether invoices were subsequently 35 submitted by VAE to claim the amounts referred to in these 36 variation documents? 37 A. Yes, I do. 38 39 Q. What is the position? 40 A. That they were definitely not sent. 41 42 Q. Are you able to explain how that came about? 43 A. That was the conversation with the Chairman. When 44 I was on holidays I got an email from Mr McAllum and it was 45 titled "Melbourne Cup Marquee" and I can't recall the exact 46 words, word for word, but the gist of it was that he was 47 wanting us to purchase a marquee for him, a table of 10,


1 I think, at the Port Office Hotel Marquee and then invoice 2 it as a variation. 3 4 Q. To the same project? 5 A. Correct. Oh, I assume so, yes. 6 7 Q. While you were away you got that email. What did you 8 do with it? 9 A. Eventually, I ended up deleting it, but once I got 10 back to work I rang Mr McAllum and told him that we 11 couldn't do that. 12 13 Q. When you're talking about "that", are you talking 14 about the Melbourne Cup Marquee? 15 A. Definitely. 16 17 Q. Did you have a discussion with him about the Cornubia 18 airconditioning installation costs? 19 A. Not at that point, no. 20 21 Q. Can you just explain to me what the Melbourne Cup 22 Marquee email and your reaction to it has to do with 23 whether or not the variations that were submitted on 24 20 August 2013 were ultimately invoiced? 25 A. It changed my view that the way in which we were asked 26 to be invoicing the job was no longer plausible, that it 27 was endorsed by Mirvac. 28 29 Q. Did you tell anyone from Mirvac that you had this 30 view? 31 A. No, because I didn't know how far up the chain it 32 went. 33 34 Q. Did you talk to Mr McAllum about it? 35 A. Only to say that I couldn't do it. It was that - 36 yeah, I could see that was blatantly not right. 37 38 Q. Did you say that to him? 39 A. I didn't use those words. All I said was we couldn't 40 do it, it was against company policy. 41 42 Q. Is the "it" that you're talking about there the 43 Cornubia costs? 44 A. No, it was to purchase the marquee table of 10. 45 46 Q. All right. I really want to separate out, to the 47 extent I can, conversations about the Melbourne Cup Marquee


1 from the invoicing of the Cornubia work and you've seen 2 that on 20 August 2013 VAE sent some variation claims 3 through? 4 A. Correct. 5 6 Q. They were just documents recognising a variation and 7 valuing them, but it is another thing to actually invoice 8 for them and be paid for them? 9 A. Correct. 10 11 Q. You say you weren't aware of the variation documents 12 of 20 August 2013 until much later? 13 A. I don't recall seeing them at that time because 14 I wasn't on the email. 15 16 Q. What I'm looking to explore with you is how did it 17 come to be that VAE decided ultimately not to invoice for 18 these variations, even though on 20 August variation claims 19 were being submitted at your direction? 20 A. Yes. I think, from memory, or from checking my 21 emails, I could be a day or two off, but that email about 22 the Melbourne Cup Marquee came through on the 21st and to 23 me that was clearly not right, so when I got back from 24 holidays, which I think was August 23, that's when I had 25 the conversation with the Chairman of the VAE to say, "Hey, 26 I'm really uncomfortable with this", and to seek his 27 advice. 28 29 Q. That's where people started talking about ducks? 30 A. That's correct, that's the duck -- 31 32 Q. On or around the 24th -- 33 A. It was there or shortly after. 34 35 Q. Did you then have a conversation with Mr Getley about 36 whether or not to invoice all the variations? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. You told him not to, is that right? 40 A. I said - I asked him if he'd done it and he said he 41 hadn't and I said, "Whatever you do, don't do it." 42 43 Q. Did you then tell Mr McAllum that you weren't going to 44 do it? 45 A. No. 46 47 Q. Did you have a discussion with anyone from Mirvac


1 about the decision that you had made not to invoice in the 2 way Mr McAllum had suggested? 3 A. No, other than Mat, I didn't really know anyone else, 4 or didn't know anyone senior above him. 5 6 Q. What about, for example, Mr Moran? 7 A. I don't recall. He was a contractor for Mirvac and he 8 was doing a lot of work in WA, at the time, from memory. 9 I don't recall having a conversation with him, yeah. 10 11 Q. Ultimately, Mr McAllum's proposal of padding your 12 Orion Pad 2 bills with Cornubia work was a proposal that 13 you rejected? 14 A. Correct. 15 16 Q. And you never invoiced and were never paid by Mirvac 17 for that work? 18 A. No. 19 20 Q. Did you ultimately absorb the whole of the costs? 21 A. Yes, I didn't think it was fair. Steve had done the 22 job we'd asked him to do, I speak of Gray Brothers, and 23 I recall in that conversation with Mr Buderus, post making 24 the decision to not pursue the variations, that we made a 25 commercial decision to let it go and put it down to I guess 26 experience. We didn't think it was viable to pursue, or 27 economically viable to pursue recovery of that work and we 28 didn't actually - or I didn't even actually know who 29 I would pursue it against. 30 31 Q. Did you think of pursuing the Hannas whose house it 32 was? 33 A. Well no, because they'd never instructed me to do the 34 work. 35 36 Q. Did you think of saying to Mr McAllum, "Look, we're 37 not comfortable with what you're proposing. We've done 38 this work and we want to be paid for it properly." 39 A. I didn't really get the opportunity. Within, like - 40 I can't - I'll retract that. I didn't take the opportunity 41 and within a few weeks, maybe a month after that, 42 Mr McAllum had left Mirvac. 43 44 Q. Have you spoken with Mr McAllum since? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. When was the last time you spoke with him?


1 A. I think the last time I spoke to him was when he asked 2 me to tender a job at Lend Lease. 3 4 Q. At Lend Lease? 5 A. Correct. 6 7 Q. What job was that? 8 A. 'The Green', an apartment block at the 9 RNA Showgrounds. 10 11 Q. Were you successful in doing that work? 12 A. No. 13 14 Q. Have you ever discussed with him again the proposal 15 that he had put forward about how to be paid for the 16 Cornubia work? 17 A. No. 18 19 Q. Have you ever discussed it with anyone from Mirvac? 20 A. I can't recall whether I spoke to Russell about it in 21 terms or not, but I don't believe I did. 22 23 Q. All right. 24 A. I might have mentioned that, you know, I wasn't happy 25 with what happened, but I can't recall that conversation; 26 it's highly likely I did. 27 28 MR ELLIOTT: Thank you, Mr Carter. 29 30 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Mr Carter, it is possible you may 31 be asked to return on Friday to answer questions from other 32 parties. Are you free then? 33 A. Yes, I guess so. 34 35 Q. Yes. You will be told if that possibility comes to 36 fruition and some attempt will be made to meet your 37 convenience. Thank you very much for attending today to 38 give your evidence. You can leave the witness box now, if 39 you would. 40 A. Thank you. 41 42 MR KENT: Commissioner, may we be excused? 43 44 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, certainly. 45 46 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 47


1 THE COMMISSIONER: The time being precious, shall we press 2 on with Mr Gray? 3 4 MR ELLIOTT: Yes. The next witness is Mr Gray and he 5 won't be terribly long. 6 7 <STEVEN HUBERT GRAY, sworn: [12.51pm] 8 9 <EXAMINATION BY MR ELLIOTT: 10 11 MR ELLIOTT: Q. Mr Gray, what is your full name? 12 A. Steven Hubert Gray. 13 14 Q. You're a resident of Queensland? 15 A. I am. 16 17 Q. Do you run a business with your brother? 18 A. That is correct. 19 20 Q. Called Gray Brothers Air Conditioning? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. How long have you run that business for? 24 A. For about 25 years. 25 26 Q. Were you approached in 2013 by Mr Clark of VAE for a 27 price to supply and install airconditioning systems in a 28 house at Cornubia? 29 A. That's correct. 30 31 Q. Can I just ask that you be shown volume 1 of 32 Cornubia MFI-1. Mr Gray, you will see that there's 33 pagination in the bottom right-hand corner of the bundle. 34 Could I ask you to go to page 274. You will see there at 35 the bottom of the page an email from Mr Carter to Mr Clark, 36 each of VAE, and that the date is 19 May 2013. It is a 37 request for Mr Clark to approach you to get a price on the 38 attached house. Do you recall the approach being made by 39 you at about this time, that is, mid to late May 2013? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. You then submitted a quote? 43 A. That is correct. 44 45 Q. Do we find a copy of that quote at page 269? Could 46 I ask you for the moment to ignore the handwriting. 47 A. Yes.

.15/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 235 S H GRAY (Mr Elliott) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. If we look at this document and ignore the 3 handwriting, would that represent the quote that was sent 4 by you to Mr Clark? 5 A. That is correct. 6 7 Q. It was a quote for both the supply and installation of 8 airconditioning units? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Could you then please go to page 376. You will see 12 there an email from Mr Clark to yourself, 18 June 2013, so 13 we're about a month further on now? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. 17 Hi Steve 18 19 See Ben Carters email below. 20 21 It then reads: 22 23 I need to organise [Gray] Brothers ASAP to 24 do the install. 25 26 The client has purchased the units direct 27 from Daikin. 28 29 Did you then receive an approach from someone from VAE to 30 quote on the install only? 31 A. Yes, I was asked to revise the quote from Gary Clark. 32 33 Q. Did you do that? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. What was the revised quote? 37 A. It was for about $12,500 plus GST - sorry, including 38 GST. 39 40 Q. Including GST. If we just go back to briefly to 41 page 269, your original quote, did you write your revised 42 quote on the copy of the original quote? 43 A. I did. 44 45 Q. Who did you give your revised quote to? 46 A. My revised quote went back to Gary Clark. 47


1 Q. What did he say to you when you gave him that revised 2 quote? 3 A. We had to go ahead with the job to do the install for 4 the house. 5 6 Q. Can I ask you to go forward to page 377. You will see 7 at the top of the page, Mr Gray, your email to Mr Clark of 8 8 July asking for a purchase order number? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. And then further down the page Mr Clark has sent you 12 an email saying: 13 14 Here are the Order details for the Daikin 15 units ... 16 17 The units were being supplied by someone else: 18 19 Details are as follows: 20 21 And then at the bottom of the page it says: 22 23 This person will know the order number is 24 "David Hanna". 25 26 Did you notice at the time that the order number or the 27 order reference for the airconditioning units was 28 David Hanna? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. Did that mean anything to you? 32 A. Nothing at all. 33 34 Q. You didn't know that Mr Hanna was an official in a 35 trade union of any sort? 36 A. I did not know. 37 38 Q. Did you then undertake some airconditioning 39 installation works? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. Could you briefly outline what those works involved? 43 A. It was the install of the duct work and units for the 44 house at Cornubia. 45 46 Q. Was that something that had to be done over a number 47 of phases or all at once?


1 A. It normally takes about three stages to do the job. 2 3 Q. Can you just give us a potted summary of those three 4 stages? 5 A. Stage 1 would be install the units and the ducting and 6 pipework, Stage 2 would be cut the holes for the grilles 7 after the house was painted, and then Stage 3 would be 8 commissioning. 9 10 Q. How did you know when to go to the site and 11 participate in each of those three phases? 12 A. There was a phone call from Mat McAllum. 13 14 Q. When was your first dealing with Mr McAllum? 15 A. I'm not sure but it would be, most probably, after the 16 job had started - after we'd started - or just before we 17 started the job. 18 19 Q. To get some direction about when to show up and -- 20 A. Yes, correct. 21 22 Q. All right. Did he tell you anything about what his 23 role was in relation to the project? 24 A. I assumed he was the project manager or owned the 25 house. I wasn't 100 per cent sure. 26 27 Q. Where did you get his details from, or did he contact 28 you? 29 A. It came through Gary Clark on an email. 30 31 Q. Did you have much to do with Mr McAllum, aside 32 from -- 33 A. No, I didn't even know Mr McAllum. 34 35 Q. Was he ever on-site when you were there? 36 A. I met someone on-site. I'm not sure if it was him or 37 the owner. That's the only meeting I had with anyone that 38 I thought could be one of them. 39 40 Q. What did that person look like? 41 A. He would have been tallish, six-footish, I suppose, 42 middle aged, 30 to 40, and well dressed. 43 44 Q. Did you issue some invoices for the work that was 45 undertaken? 46 A. Yes, I did, two separate invoices. 47


1 Q. Did the total of those two invoices equal the amount 2 that you had quoted for? 3 A. That is correct. 4 5 Q. Were those invoices paid? 6 A. In full. 7 8 MR ELLIOTT: Thank you, Mr Gray. 9 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Yes. Mr Gray, it's possible but 11 I suspect highly unlikely that you might be invited back to 12 give evidence on Friday if any of the people represented 13 want to ask you any questions, but unless there's some loud 14 dissent, I think it is very unlikely. If that possibility 15 comes to pass, the solicitors will contact you and try to 16 work out a convenient time. Are you available on Friday? 17 A. I am. 18 19 Q. Thank you very much for your evidence today. 20 A. Thank you. 21 22 THE COMMISSIONER: You can now leave the witness box. 23 24 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: Is this a convenient time? 27 28 MR ELLIOTT: Yes, Commissioner. 29 30 THE COMMISSIONER: The hearing will resume at 2pm. 31 32 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT 33 34 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Elliott? 35 36 MR ELLIOTT: Commissioner, the next witness is 37 Adam Shuttlewood. 38 39 <ADAM GRANT SHUTTLEWOOD, sworn: [2.02pm] 40 41 <EXAMINATION BY MR ELLIOTT: 42 43 MR ELLIOTT: Q. Sir, what is your full name? 44 A. Adam Grant Shuttlewood. 45 46 Q. Are you a resident of Queensland? 47 A. Yes.

.15/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 239 A G SHUTTLEWOOD (Mr Elliott) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. What is your occupation? 3 A. Renderer. 4 5 Q. Do you know Mr McAllum, Mathew McAllum? 6 A. Mat, yes. 7 8 Q. When did you first meet him? 9 A. About six years ago. 10 11 Q. How did you come to meet him? 12 A. I was supervising a job and he was the builder. 13 14 Q. What sort of job was it? 15 A. It was a set of units. 16 17 Q. Were you working for someone at the time? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. Who were you working for? 21 A. Perfection Group. 22 23 Q. What services were you providing? 24 A. Rendering. 25 26 Q. In 2013 did Mr McAllum approach you about doing some 27 work on a house at Cornubia? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. In the period between your first contact with him and 31 him discussing the Cornubia property with you for the first 32 time, how often would you have seen Mr McAllum? 33 A. Not at all; just phone call. 34 35 Q. What were those phone calls about, work, personal 36 matters? 37 A. Yes, just work. 38 39 Q. Did you do other jobs for Mr McAllum in that period? 40 A. No. I only just started a business then, a family 41 business, and I just rang him to let him know that we were 42 available to do anything. 43 44 Q. Yes. 45 A. And he rang me about the house. 46 47 Q. You had no real contact with Mr McAllum in that


1 six-year period between when you were working for the 2 Perfection Group and when Mr McAllum asked you about 3 Cornubia in 2013? 4 A. Only on-site. 5 6 Q. On which site? 7 A. On the units and then on his - on another house. 8 9 Q. Where was the other house? 10 A. At Hawthorne. 11 12 Q. And when was that? 13 A. About a year after we did the units. 14 15 Q. About six years ago you did some work for Mr McAllum 16 on a project and then maybe a year after that, you did some 17 work on a house at Hawthorne? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. And then nothing until 2013; is that right? 21 A. (Witness nods). 22 23 Q. Any communication at all in that period, in the 24 intervening period? 25 A. Just to let him know that I went out on my own and -- 26 27 Q. Is your relationship with him a professional one? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. Can I show you a document in volume 2 of 31 Cornubia MFI-1. Mr Shuttlewood, you will see, when you get 32 these documents, that there is some page numbering in the 33 bottom right-hand corner. 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. Could I ask you to go through to page 580. Do you see 37 there an email from Cheryl Shuttlewood to Mr McAllum of 38 12 July 2013? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. Is that your wife? 42 A. No, my mother. 43 44 Q. Your mother. Does she assist you in the running of 45 the business? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. Can you tell me how long before this email was sent to 2 Mr McAllum, he contacted you about the possibility of doing 3 this work at Cornubia? 4 A. I don't really know, sorry. 5 6 Q. Was it days, weeks, months? 7 A. Oh, it would have been a couple of weeks, I'd say. 8 9 Q. A couple of weeks. All right. So some time around 10 early July or so, late June, early July, he contacted you. 11 Did he ring you up or come and see you - what happened? 12 A. Yes, he rang me. 13 14 Q. He rang you? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. What did he say? 18 A. Just that he had a house ready for us, if we wanted 19 it. 20 21 Q. Did he tell you where the house was? 22 A. He said Cornubia. 23 24 Q. Did he give you any information about the house? 25 A. I don't think so. He probably would have said a rough 26 square meterage, how much stuff to bring, yes. 27 28 Q. Did he give you any plans or other documents that 29 would enable you to prepare the quote? 30 A. I don't think so. 31 32 Q. What information did you have that enabled you to 33 prepare the quote? 34 A. It might have been off plans; I don't know. 35 36 Q. Would you normally need something in the nature of 37 plans? 38 A. Plans or a site visit, but I don't think I went down 39 there. 40 41 Q. Is it likely that you did receive some plans? 42 A. Probably, yes. 43 44 Q. You looked at the plans, did you, and then worked out 45 a quote for the job? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. Did he tell you whose house it was? 2 A. No. 3 4 Q. Did he tell you what his role was in relation to the 5 house? 6 A. No. 7 8 Q. As best you can, what did he actually say to you when 9 he rang you and asked for a quote? 10 A. Pretty much just that he had the house ready for us 11 and if I could quote it. That's when I -- 12 13 Q. Did you think it was his house? 14 A. No, I didn't think it was his house. 15 16 Q. What did he say that led you to understand that it 17 wasn't his house? 18 A. Oh, because he normally deals with people, so I just 19 assumed it's like any other builder. 20 21 Q. Did you understand at the time that he was working as 22 a contractor for Mirvac? 23 A. No. 24 25 Q. What did you understand his job to be at the time when 26 he rang you and asked for this quote? 27 A. I thought it was just - he was a builder. 28 29 Q. A builder doing a residential job? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. You will see from the quote that's attached to that 33 email - the quote is at page 581, it is dated 12 July 2013, 34 and it concerns the supply and application of render on 35 brickwork. And then if you go over the page, you will see 36 another email from Mrs Shuttlewood to Mr McAllum and it 37 attaches, at page 583, a separate quote for gapping joints 38 and painting render work. You prepared both of these 39 quotes at the time? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. Were you given the address of the property from 43 Mr McAllum? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. What happened after you sent these quotes? Did 47 Mr McAllum contact you about them?


1 A. He must have. He must have said, "Yes, go ahead." 2 3 Q. Do you remember him accepting the quote, rejecting the 4 quote, trying to negotiate? 5 A. He didn't negotiate, I think he accepted it. 6 7 Q. Did he ring you up and tell you that? 8 A. I think so. 9 10 Q. How long was that after you gave him the quotes? 11 A. I don't know. 12 13 Q. Are we talking days, weeks, months? 14 A. Oh, really, I have no idea. 15 16 Q. Do you remember when you did the work? 17 A. In July. 18 19 Q. July. If the quote is dated 12 July, presumably, and 20 you did -- 21 A. A week before that, yeah. 22 23 Q. He rang you and accepted the quote, I assume, before 24 you agreed to start work on the job? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. Your quote of 12 July was addressed to the owner at 28 the Cornubia address. 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. At what stage were you told who the owner was, if at 32 all? 33 A. I wasn't. 34 35 Q. Never told? 36 A. No. 37 38 Q. Were you contemplating, as at 12 July 2013, that the 39 person who would be billed for this work would be the owner 40 of the property? 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. Did you say that to Mr McAllum at the time? 44 A. I don't think so. 45 46 Q. When you first attended the site, did you meet anyone 47 there?


1 A. The owner was there. 2 3 Q. And who was that? A man, a lady? 4 A. A man, yes. 5 6 Q. A man? All right. Was Mr McAllum there as well? 7 A. I think he met me on-site as well, yes. 8 9 Q. Did there have to be some discussion with either or 10 both of Mr McAllum and the owner about the details of what 11 you would do? 12 A. I think so, yes. 13 14 Q. Conversations about colours and the like? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Who did you have those conversations with? 18 A. The owner and Mat. 19 20 Q. Were you introduced to the owner? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. Who was he introduced as? 24 A. I can't remember, sorry, I'm bad with names. 25 26 Q. It was just a name? 27 A. Pretty much. Just another guy, yes. 28 29 Q. A fellow there, you were told whose name it was, you 30 shook hands and kept talking about the details; is that 31 right? 32 A. Yeah, pretty much. 33 34 Q. In 2013 had you heard of David Hanna? 35 A. No. 36 37 Q. Did you understand there was a David Hanna who was 38 working for the BLF? 39 A. No. 40 41 Q. Did you talk to the owner about charging him for the 42 work that you were going to do? 43 A. No. 44 45 Q. Do you recall whether Mr McAllum participated in this 46 conversation at all about colours and work and so on? 47 A. I think he was there.


1 2 Q. Can you just describe, in general terms, what work you 3 did in July 2013 to the house and how long it took you to 4 do it? 5 A. We rendered the outside of the house and painted it. 6 It took just over a week, I think. 7 8 Q. Just over a week. How many people did it take to do 9 that? 10 A. Just the three of us: my brother and my father. 11 12 Q. There was you, your father and another person? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. How much render do you recall having to use for the 16 job? 17 A. It was - do you mean bag-wise? 18 19 Q. Yes, in terms of meterage. 20 A. Meterage? 21 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. I think it was about 260, maybe a bit more. 24 25 Q. Were there other trades working on the site while you 26 were there? 27 A. There was a chippy inside but I didn't really talk to 28 him. 29 30 Q. You then finished the job, did you, and the time came 31 to invoice? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. What did you do in terms of invoicing for the work? 35 A. I rang Mat and asked him who to invoice to. 36 37 Q. Yes. What did he tell you? 38 A. He told us to invoice Wadsworth Construction. 39 40 Q. I am sorry, I am having trouble hearing you? 41 A. Wadsworth Construction. 42 43 Q. Had you seen the owner on-site during the time you 44 were doing the work? 45 A. Yes, I saw him when we talked to him and then 46 - because we worked on the weekend, so I saw him on that 47 weekend.


1 2 Q. Did he appear to be living in some other part of the 3 property? 4 A. Yes, there was a house at the back. 5 6 Q. Did you see whether he was, for example, married or 7 had a partner? 8 A. I think he had a wife there, yes. 9 10 Q. Did you engage with her at all? Did you talk to her? 11 A. Not really. 12 13 Q. Was Mr McAllum on the site during the work phase that 14 you were undertaking? 15 A. No, not really. 16 17 Q. Is there some reason why you didn't just prepare an 18 invoice and give it to the owner? 19 A. It was all through email, so I, yes, rang Mat and Mat 20 told me what to do. 21 22 Q. But you had met the owner, you had seen him on the 23 site, he was living on the property, why didn't you just 24 give him your invoice? 25 A. Because I was working for Mat pretty much, or that's 26 what I thought. 27 28 Q. But your quote had not been addressed to Mat, it had 29 been addressed to the owner? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. Didn't you understand throughout that your client was 33 the owner? 34 A. Not really, if I was going through Mat. 35 36 Q. But you weren't going through Mat, were you? You had 37 sent him an email or your mother had sent him an email on 38 12 July, but since then you had met the owner and you were 39 dealing with the owner on-site? 40 A. I only met him on-site, so -- 41 42 Q. And Mr McAllum told you, did he, to make your invoice 43 out to a company Wadsworth Construction, is that right? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Didn't that strike you as being unusual? 47 A. I though they were involved with the owner.


1 2 Q. You thought there was some connection between 3 Wadsworth Construction and the owner of the property? 4 A. I thought that might have been his company. 5 6 Q. Did Mr McAllum tell you anything else about how you 7 should invoice for the work? Did he tell you how to 8 describe it? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. What did he say about that? 12 A. He said put "Origin 2D" on there. 13 14 Q. "Orion 2D"? 15 A. "Orion 2D", sorry. 16 17 Q. Did that strike you as unusual? 18 A. That's what he wanted on the invoices. I didn't 19 really give it a second thought. 20 21 Q. Did that name mean anything to you, "Orion 2D"? Had 22 you ever heard of a project called Orion 2D? 23 A. No. 24 25 Q. It must have been obvious to you, though, that it 26 wasn't a description of the work that you were doing at 27 Cornubia? 28 A. Well, that's what he wanted me to put down, so -- 29 30 Q. You didn't question him about that? 31 A. Not really. We were getting the work and -- 32 33 Q. When you say "not really", did you question him a bit 34 about it? 35 A. No. 36 37 Q. Not at all? 38 A. No. 39 40 Q. Can we just have a look at some documents in the same 41 volume, volume 2. Can you go ahead, please, to page 651. 42 Mr Shuttlewood, you will see there a couple of emails. If 43 we can start at the bottom of the page, there is an email 44 from Mrs Shuttlewood to Glen Wadsworth. 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. And there is an email address there,


1 [email protected]. Where did you get that email 2 address from? 3 A. I must have got it from Mat. 4 5 Q. Do you remember getting it from Mat? 6 A. No. 7 8 Q. Had you had any dealings with Mr Wadsworth or 9 Wadsworth Construction before? 10 A. No. 11 12 Q. Had you ever heard of them? 13 A. No. 14 15 Q. The email refers to a tax invoice that's attached and 16 thanks Mr Wadsworth for his business. Did Mr McAllum also 17 tell you that Glen Wadsworth was the man at 18 Wadsworth Construction that you needed to deal with? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. If you look over the page, page 652, you will see the 22 invoice. It is dated 18 July. It is addressed to 23 Glen Wadsworth at Wadsworth Constructions, and it reads in 24 "Description": 25 26 Supply and apply render on brick work and 27 blue board on residence at ... Cornubia. 28 29 And then in brackets "(Orion 2D)". Did you put that 30 "Orion 2D" reference down because that is what Mr McAllum 31 had asked you to do? 32 A. I didn't do the invoicing, so I don't know. 33 34 Q. Did you give some instructions to your mother about 35 the invoice? 36 A. I must have, yes. 37 38 Q. Did you tell her to put "Orion 2D" on the invoice? 39 A. I must have, yes. 40 41 Q. This was the invoice that reflected the rendering work 42 that you had quoted on but not the paint work; is that 43 right? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. If we then go to page 653, you will see at the top of 47 the page an email from Mr McAllum to shuttlewood1@, etc.


1 Is that an email address that was used by you at the time? 2 A. That's the company email. 3 4 Q. And it reads: 5 6 Cheryl/Adam, 7 8 Can you please remove the description ... 9 10 That is the description we were looking at a moment ago 11 that referred to Cornubia: 12 13 ... and only have the following - 14 15 - Supply Render and Painting services 16 to carry out works as directed on Orion 2D. 17 18 Did you receive and read that email at the time? 19 A. I don't think I did, but I would have got word of it. 20 21 Q. I'm sorry, you would have gotten -- 22 A. Yes, mum would have told me about it. 23 24 Q. Did you think it was strange that you were being asked 25 by Mr McAllum to remove the description to the extent it 26 recorded the work as being undertaken at Cornubia? 27 A. I don't really remember that email, sorry. 28 29 Q. Do you remember talking to your mother about it, 30 though? 31 A. No, I don't. 32 33 Q. Do you remember giving her any instruction or 34 direction about whether or not to do as Mr McAllum had 35 asked? 36 A. I don't, but I would have. 37 38 Q. What do you believe you did? 39 A. I think we would have done as he asked. 40 41 Q. Why would you do that? 42 A. Well, that's what he wanted on the invoice, so -- 43 44 Q. But it must have been clear to you by this stage that 45 you were being asked to describe the works as being 46 something other than what you had actually done? 47 A. I didn't really think about it at all, sorry.


1 2 Q. Had you ever been asked before to describe works in 3 a way that was different from the works that you had 4 actually done? 5 A. No. 6 7 Q. Have you ever been asked such a thing since? 8 A. No. 9 10 Q. So this is the one and only time you have been asked 11 by someone to describe works in a different way from a way 12 that would be accurate? 13 A. Probably. 14 15 Q. That must have taken you by surprise, surely? 16 A. It was probably a little bit odd. 17 18 Q. Did you say something to Mr McAllum about that? 19 A. No. 20 21 Q. Did you ask him why he was giving you this 22 instruction? 23 A. No, I didn't question him. 24 25 Q. This was a residential home that you were working on? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. You were working on the project and had met the owner? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. You had quoted to the owner? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. And you are now being asked to send the bill to 35 Glen Wadsworth and to describe the work as being on 36 Orion 2D. Surely that struck you as being quite unusual? 37 A. I believed it was just his construction company, so he 38 wanted it done that way. 39 40 Q. Did you ask the owner anything about this? 41 A. No, I didn't have the owner's phone number or -- 42 43 Q. If you can turn over to page 655-1, you will see here 44 a revised version of the same invoice we've been looking 45 at. It still has the same date, the same invoice number, 46 1087, but the description has been changed so it reads: 47


1 Render service for work at Orion 2D 2 3 Do you see that? 4 A. I don't have that. 5 6 Q. Page 655-1. 7 A. I just have 655 here. 8 9 Q. And then after 655? 10 A. 656. 11 12 Q. I see. Could I just ask you to look at the document 13 on the screen. I apologise for that. Can you read that 14 okay? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Do you believe that you gave your mother an 18 instruction to change the description of the work in this 19 way? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Can I just ask that the following page, 655-2, come up 23 on screen. Is this an invoice that you asked your mother 24 to prepare in relation to the painting services provided 25 for the Cornubia property? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. And again, did you put that description in there 29 because you were asked by Mr McAllum to do so? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. Were those invoices then paid? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. Do you recall who paid the invoices? 36 A. Glen Wadsworth. 37 38 Q. Did you make any attempt to contact Mr Wadsworth about 39 these invoices and whether they should be paid, other than 40 the email that we saw from your mother? 41 A. No. 42 43 Q. After you worked on the property at Cornubia, did you 44 speak with Mr McAllum about doing some work on a different 45 project? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. What project was that? 2 A. The Mirvac site at Springfield. 3 4 Q. Was that the Orion Pads 2D project? 5 A. I don't know. 6 7 Q. What did you know it as? 8 A. Just as a shopping centre. 9 10 Q. I'm sorry, just as the -- 11 A. A shopping centre. 12 13 Q. A shopping centre at -- 14 A. At Springfield. 15 16 Q. What did he ask you to do there? 17 A. Render some walls out the front and back. 18 19 Q. Which areas in particular? 20 A. It was around the Hog's Breath, the little walls, and 21 then at the back of the next building across and the side 22 of that one, and I think it's beside BCF, the gas bays. 23 24 Q. Were there other buildings in and around this area 25 that were being rendered at the same time? 26 A. No. 27 28 Q. Had any rendering works been done to parts of the 29 building that you worked on or any other buildings around 30 them? 31 A. The other shopping centre was pretty much finished. 32 33 Q. Yes. 34 A. And no, none on that one. 35 36 Q. Who did that work? Yourself? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. And anyone else? 40 A. My father and brother as well. 41 42 Q. Your father and your brother? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. It was Mr McAllum, was it, who asked you to do that 46 work? 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. Did you deal with Mr Wadsworth at all? 3 A. No. 4 5 Q. When that work was done, did you issue some invoices 6 for that work? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. Who did you invoice? 10 A. Wadsworth. 11 12 Q. Wadsworth? 13 A. Wadsworth. 14 15 Q. Why did you do that? 16 A. That's who we were told to invoice. 17 18 Q. Who told you that? 19 A. Mat. 20 21 Q. Did that seem a bit odd to you? 22 A. No. I thought that was the construction company 23 again. 24 25 Q. Were those invoices paid by Wadsworth? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. And you say, do you, that that work was not work 29 undertaken in relation to the Cornubia property? 30 A. No. 31 32 Q. You're quite sure about that? 33 A. What do you mean? 34 35 Q. You're sure that the work that you invoiced Wadsworth 36 for in August and September 2013 was work undertaken at the 37 shopping centre, not at Cornubia? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. Can I just show you those invoices so we're all clear 41 about what we're talking about. Can I ask that the witness 42 be shown a folder that has not been received into evidence 43 yet but is called volume 6. Mr Shuttlewood, can I ask you 44 to go through to page 1905. This is an invoice dated 45 18 August 2013. You say that work was undertaken on the 46 Springfield Shopping Centre site; is that right? 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. If I can ask -- 3 4 THE COMMISSIONER: I am sorry, Mr Elliott, but I think it 5 is 13 August 6 7 MR ELLIOTT: Yes, 13 August, thank you, Commissioner. 8 9 Q. Then if you could move forward in the bundle to 10 page 1913, 25 September 2013 -- 11 A. Sorry, what page was that? 12 13 Q. Page 1913. Is that the second invoice for work you 14 say was undertaken by your business at Springfield? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Have you spoken to Mr McAllum since doing the work in 18 2013 on the Springfield site? 19 A. He rang me about two months ago. 20 21 Q. What did he say? 22 A. That he had more work that he wanted us to quote. 23 24 Q. Was that in relation to a project that he identified? 25 A. He was doing houses for himself, I think. 26 27 Q. Did you get that work? 28 A. I've recently split up from my company, so I'm not 29 working for them anymore, so I told him I couldn't do it. 30 31 Q. Did the company that you were with get the work? All 32 right. Thank you, Mr Shuttlewood. 33 34 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Shuttlewood, thank you for 35 coming along today. It is possible that the legal 36 representatives of some of the people who are affected by 37 these hearings may wish to ask you some more questions. If 38 they do, that will be on Friday and the solicitors for the 39 Commission will let you know on Thursday, probably, when or 40 what precise time of the day would suit you and would suit 41 general proceedings, but for now you can leave the witness 42 box. Thank you. 43 44 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 45 46 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 47


1 MR ELLIOTT: Commissioner, we now have Mr Wadsworth. 2 3 <GLEN ARTHUR WADSWORTH, sworn: [2.31pm] 4 5 <EXAMINATION BY MR ELLIOTT: 6 7 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Elliott? 8 9 THE WITNESS: I'll just get me glasses; it looks like 10 there's a bit of reading. 11 12 MR ELLIOTT: Q. Mr Wadsworth, what is your full name? 13 A. Glen Arthur Wadsworth. 14 15 Q. You are a resident of Queensland? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. What is your occupation? 19 A. As far as Wadsworth Construction goes, I was the sole 20 director. 21 22 Q. Do you do anything for a living now? 23 A. I work for another company. 24 25 Q. And what is your occupation? 26 A. Gofer. 27 28 Q. Who do you work for? 29 A. Wadsworth Contracting. 30 31 Q. Who is the owner of Wadsworth Contracting? 32 A. Brock Wadsworth. 33 34 Q. Who is that in relation to you? 35 A. My son. 36 37 Q. He now owns Wadsworth Contracting? 38 A. He does. 39 40 Q. Is he the sole director? 41 A. He is. 42 43 Q. And his company employs you? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. You used to be the director of that company? 47 A. About a year ago, when it initially kicked off.

.15/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 256 G A WADSWORTH (Mr Elliott) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. What does that company do? 3 A. The same shit. 4 5 Q. And what's that? 6 A. Commercial fit-out. 7 8 Q. What does that involve? 9 A. All sorts of stuff - ceilings, partitions, this sort 10 of crap. Walls. (Indicates around hearing room) 11 12 Q. What sort of clients do you provide that material to? 13 A. Well, as far as - it's supply and install, it's like 14 a finished product; major - major building companies. 15 16 Q. Mirvac? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Who else? 20 A. Well, it's across the vast spectrum of major builders. 21 Like, if I go naming them I'll probably never get a job 22 with them again or my son may never get a job with them 23 again. 24 25 Q. Who else, Mr Wadsworth? 26 A. Okay. Let's think. 27 28 Q. Who are the other major building companies that you 29 work for? 30 A. As in now? As in for the son or back then? 31 32 Q. As at 2013. 33 A. There would have been Multiplex - there was quite 34 a few but I've just got to put them together. 35 Baulderstone. 36 37 Q. What percentage of Wadsworth's business in 2013 came 38 from Mirvac? 39 A. Well, at a guess, mainly because I don't have all that 40 information in front of me, but I did print out a couple of 41 years of information for you guys and I think in that time 42 it might have been from - I don't know, the financial year 43 of 2012 to 2013 to 2014 and it might have been 4 million 44 worth of sales, or whatever, to them. It was in the middle 45 of a recession. 46 47 Q. Were they a major client of Wadsworth Construction?


1 A. They were certainly - yes, certainly. 2 3 Q. The biggest? 4 A. No, not necessarily because at that particular 5 time - that's right, okay. Multiplex and Baulderstone is 6 correct because we were doing the Indooroopilly Shopping 7 Centre for Multiplex and we were doing the Mackay Base 8 Hospital for Baulderstone and both of those were 9 substantial contracts that went over three years. 10 11 Q. When did those contracts commence? 12 A. Probably around early 2012, maybe even before that, 13 because they went - both of them went for about three 14 years. 15 16 Q. Were they ongoing during the course of 2013? 17 A. I think we finished Indooroopilly about July of 2013 18 and the hospital, September of 2013. 19 20 Q. So you had the Indooroopilly project, the hospital 21 project? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. And a project for Mirvac in 2013? 25 A. Yes, yes, that would have been that Pad thing that has 26 been mentioned many times. 27 28 Q. Right. 29 A. Just for clarity, too, Orion, there's the original 30 shopping centre that was done probably 2006, somewhere 31 around there, we did that. Then there was the Pad - the 32 first Pad, we didn't do that, we did do the second Pad, but 33 it seems from listening and watching on the live stream 34 that people don't understand what all the Pads are; well, 35 there's clarification. 36 37 Q. Thank you for that. You were retained by Mirvac, were 38 you, in 2006 to work on the original shopping centre? 39 A. We were. 40 41 Q. Was that a large project? 42 A. I think the contract value probably ended up about 43 6 mill. 44 45 Q. Did you tender for the Pad 1 work? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. But you weren't successful? 2 A. No. 3 4 Q. You tendered for the Pad 2 work? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. And you were successful? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 MR ELLIOTT: I want to show you some documents in relation 11 to that process. Might the witness be shown volume 6. 12 I might at this point, Commissioner, tender that. Perhaps 13 it could be marked as Wadsworth MFI-1? 14 15 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Very well. The only thing that 16 worries me is that volume 6 is sort of suspended without 17 any preceding numbers. What is wrong with calling it 18 Cornubia Case Study MFI-1,or just adding it to that? 19 20 MR ELLIOTT: We can add it to the existing tender. 21 22 THE COMMISSIONER: The document which has the title 23 "CFMEU Queensland Hanna House Bundle Volume 6" will form 24 part of Cornubia Case Study MFI-1 as the sixth volume. 25 26 CORNUBIA CASE STUDY MFI-1 ADDITION OF CFMEU QUEENSLAND 27 HANNA HOUSE BUNDLE VOLUME 6 28 29 MR ELLIOTT: Q. Mr Wadsworth, you will see in the bottom 30 right-hand corner some page numbering. 31 A. The number? 32 33 Q. The very first page of this bundle, 1083, is a copy of 34 a letter from Mirvac of 26 April 2013. 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. Inviting Wadsworth Construction to submit a tender for 38 a painting package. Do you see that? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. That appears to have been sent to you by Mr McAllum? 42 A. It would be. 43 44 Q. Did you know Mr McAllum at that time? 45 A. No. Well, like, I've heard that he worked for Mirvac, 46 you know, many years ago, but I never met the guy until 47 this.


1 2 Q. Had you met him before 26 April 2013, the date of this 3 letter? 4 A. No. 5 6 Q. Had you had any approach by anyone from Mirvac to 7 sound you out about the possibility of tendering for this 8 work? 9 A. Well, hang on, can I go back? 10 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. This is painting, right? 13 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. We do ceilings and partitions and painting. Under the 16 normal scope of crap we would have tendered the ceilings 17 and partitions first before the painting. 18 19 Q. You will see at 1804 -- 20 A. Painting again. 21 22 Q. -- a letter of the same date? 23 A. And it says "painting", it's trade painting, I read 24 this crap all the time. 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Mr Wadsworth, I don't want to 27 interrupt unduly your normal way of expressing yourself, 28 but I think it might help if you just watch the language 29 a bit. 30 A. Righto, I'll do me best. 31 32 MR ELLIOTT: Q. Can I suggest, Mr Wadsworth, that you do 33 more than your best and you do what you are asked to do by 34 the Commissioner; would you do that? 35 A. All right. Yes, I will, yes. 36 37 Q. Do you understand that? 38 A. Yes, yes. 39 40 Q. How difficult is it? 41 A. It is, for me, because my language is what you hear 42 wherever I go, so I will do my best. 43 44 Q. Mr Wadsworth, I'll show you a document now. Would you 45 have a look at this document? 46 A. Ceilings and partitions, yes. 47


1 Q. The same date. 2 A. Okay, fair enough, but usually in the course of what 3 we do ceilings and partitions is first. 4 5 Q. On 26 April do you accept that you got two letters 6 from Mr McAllum on Mirvac letterhead, one asking 7 Wadsworth Construction to submit a tender for painting and 8 a second asking Wadsworth Construction to submit a tender 9 for ceilings and partitions? 10 A. That's what it says. 11 12 Q. Had anyone from Mirvac approached you before the date 13 of these letters to sound you out about the possibility of 14 submitting a tender for this project? 15 A. Not that I recall; usually they just send it to us. 16 17 Q. The first contact that you can recall having with 18 anyone from Mirvac about this project was the receipt of 19 this correspondence? 20 A. I'm guessing so. 21 22 MR ELLIOTT: Commissioner, might that letter be marked 23 Wadsworth MFI-1? 24 25 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. The letter that has just been 26 shown to Mr Wadsworth will be received into evidence as 27 Wadsworth MFI-1, being a letter of 26 April 2013 from 28 Mirvac Construction Queensland Pty Ltd to 29 Wadsworth Construction. 30 31 WADSWORTH MFI-1 LETTER OF 26 APRIL 2013 FROM MIRVAC 32 CONSTRUCTION QUEENSLAND PTY LTD TO WADSWORTH CONSTRUCTION 33 34 MR ELLIOTT: Q. Mr Wadsworth, did you arrange for the 35 company to submit a tender to Mirvac in relation to each of 36 these packages? 37 A. I would have. 38 39 Q. Yes. Does this sound right, that you would have 40 submitted your quotes in about May of 2013? 41 A. Well, based on these, end of April, probably by the 42 time we did a take off and did all that stuff, put the 43 price together, I'm guessing it would have been May. 44 45 Q. Was there any interaction between you and Mr McAllum 46 between the invitation date of 26 April and the date upon 47 which you submitted the quotes?


1 A. Not that I can recall, certainly. 2 3 Q. There was nothing that needed to be clarified around 4 the scope of works or anything of that nature? 5 A. Well, there may have been, but the police took my 6 file. Whatever is in that file should pretty much cover 7 those answers. My memory is two years ago and my wife died 8 later in that year, so it was a pretty hectic year all 9 around for me, memory-wise, was as far as, you know, 10 - like, this was a piddly job in my point of view. 11 12 Q. Which job? 13 A. This job, Orion, the Orion job. 14 15 Q. The Orion job? 16 A. This one, the Pads, because it was only worth a half 17 a million or thereabouts. 18 19 Q. You maintained a file in relation to the project; is 20 that right? 21 A. Yes, yes, and the cops took it and they won't give it 22 back, so I don't know what's in it. 23 24 Q. And you kept that file in a careful manner, 25 didn't you? 26 A. Always. 27 28 Q. Things were put in date order? 29 A. Usually, that's how I file things. 30 31 Q. And you filed things behind particular tabs for 32 particular subject matters? 33 A. Usually, yes. 34 35 Q. You took care to do that so that you'd have an 36 accurate record of the work that had been done? 37 A. Pretty much. 38 39 Q. If you go through in volume 6 that you have in front 40 of you to page 1805, you will see there 22 July 2013, the 41 front sheet of a subcontract? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. You will see, towards the bottom: 45 46 Trade Package: Ceilings & Partitions ... 47


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. And a contract sum? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. Would you just go over to the next page. 7 A. That's the paint one. 8 9 Q. That is the painting subcontract for the Orion Pad 2 10 project? 11 A. That would be it. 12 13 Q. 25 July 2013? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. You will see again the trade package and subcontract 17 sum towards the bottom? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. Did you have any negotiation with anyone from Mirvac 21 over the terms of the contract? 22 A. Well, without my file I can't tell you because if - my 23 file would say, you know, I put in a price of 370 grand and 24 maybe I got screwed for 14 grand, I don't know. Give me me 25 file back, and I could tell you. 26 27 Q. You don't remember? 28 A. No. My wife died a month later, mate - you know, my 29 family is a mess at that point. You know, this was menial 30 crap to me. 31 32 Q. I would just ask you again to remember the 33 interruption a moment ago from the Commissioner -- 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. -- about the language to use and conducting yourself 37 in an appropriate manner in the Royal Commission hearing. 38 Do you understand that? 39 A. Yes, I do. I thought I had. I'm giving you the 40 truth. 41 42 Q. Do you remember having any negotiations with anyone 43 from Mirvac over the terms of either subcontract? 44 A. Well -- 45 46 Q. Do you remember having any negotiations with anyone 47 from Mirvac over the terms of either subcontract, "Yes" or


1 "No"? 2 A. Well, there are bound to be. 3 4 Q. I'll ask you again. Do you remember -- 5 A. Do I remember? No. There would be bound to be some 6 negotiations during the course, for sure, no doubt. 7 8 Q. Were those negotiations with Mr McAllum? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Where would they take place typically? 12 A. Well, I didn't really - I seem to recall perhaps 13 meeting him once at the start of the caper, which, from 14 memory, was where their head office was. 15 16 Q. In Brisbane? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Was that the first time you met Mr McAllum? 20 A. Yes, and I didn't like him, to tell you the truth, 21 because we didn't get the previous job. 22 23 Q. All right. Well, I didn't ask you whether you liked 24 him or not. 25 A. Sorry. 26 27 Q. That was the first time you met Mr McAllum; is that 28 right? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. That was to discuss the terms upon which Wadsworth 32 might be retained to undertake work on the Pads 2 project? 33 A. I assume so. 34 35 Q. Did you also have discussions with Mr McAllum about 36 doing some work on a house at Cornubia? 37 A. Yes. Yes, there was some talk about that. 38 39 Q. At about the same time? 40 A. I am not sure about that, but I guess it could be. 41 42 Q. What did he tell you in the first conversation you had 43 about this house? 44 A. Well, I think he - what did he tell me? I'm pretty 45 sure and I may be - let me just get this right. I'm sure 46 he was talking about a house at Cornubia, which obviously 47 is Dave Hanna's but, you know, I didn't know what my


1 involvement was going to be, if anything, other than maybe 2 chasing a few prices. 3 4 Q. I'll just ask you the question again. What did he 5 tell you, he, Mr McAllum, in the first conversation you had 6 with him about this house? What did he say? 7 A. I can't tell you; I can't recall that. 8 9 Q. What was the gist of what he said? What was the 10 flavour of what he said? 11 A. Well, I guess that somehow there was some involvement 12 in building a house, which wasn't uncommon because not all 13 that long before that, there was a charity house built by 14 Mirvac and the BLF was majorly involved in this charity 15 house, so it didn't strike me as particularly strange. 16 17 Q. But he told you that it was something to do with 18 building a house; is that right? 19 A. Well, I'm guessing -- 20 21 Q. At Cornubia? 22 A. Yes, I'm - I'm -- 23 24 Q. Surely this isn't the first time you are thinking 25 about this, Mr Wadsworth? 26 A. Really, it is, other than they took the file, so 27 I couldn't think about it. 28 29 Q. You were approached by the police, weren't you -- 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. -- about this subject matter? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. And you declined to talk to them, didn't you? 36 A. Well, that is what the legal people told me to do. 37 38 Q. And you received a summons? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. To attend today? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. You're not seriously suggesting, are you, that the 45 first time you are turning your mind to these matters is as 46 you sit here now? 47 A. Well, no, I'm not seriously suggesting that. What I'm


1 suggesting is that despite everything that I keep telling 2 you, I can't remember everything because the file is my 3 memory. The file was taken from me. I haven't looked at 4 it in two years. I don't know what else you want me to 5 tell you. 6 7 Q. Surely before you arrived at the Commission hearing 8 room today, you reflected on what Mr McAllum had told you 9 when he asked you to do something in relation to this house 10 at Cornubia - yes? 11 A. I don't know what to say, I really don't. Look, 12 I mean, I tried to think about what may or may not be in 13 the file so I could be, you know, able to answer your 14 question. Clearly, I must have been involved, as in 15 Adam Shuttlewood has said. 16 17 Q. We'll get to that. I am focusing your attention now 18 on the first discussion that you had with Mr McAllum about 19 the house at Cornubia. 20 A. Mmm-hmm. 21 22 Q. I want you to reflect on what it was that he told you 23 when he raised this subject with you for the first time. 24 A. So I'm guessing that he would have said, "We're 25 involved in this house at Cornubia. We may want you to do 26 something." I'm guessing because I can't remember. 27 28 Q. Did he tell you anything about who owned the house? 29 A. Not at that point, that I recall. 30 31 Q. Did he tell you why he, a contractor at Mirvac, was 32 involved in doing a stand-alone residential property in 33 Logan? 34 A. Well, I didn't know he was a contractor. That's not 35 normal in that caper, but I assumed that there must have 36 been some arrangement for Mirvac, but I didn't - you know, 37 no-one tells you - you know, you don't - you don't ask and 38 you don't - you know, it's not my - not my business. 39 40 Q. You didn't want to know? 41 A. That's - that's a good thing, yeah. The less you know 42 the better, I say. 43 44 Q. Do you know David Hanna? 45 A. I do. 46 47 Q. How long have you known him for?


1 A. Well, I think I was - I did think about that and 2 I could remember that because it was prior to the year of 3 madness and mayhem and I suggest it was probably - it was 4 Indooroopilly Stage 5 which was probably 20 years. I'm 5 pretty sure at that point he was just a humble delo. Not 6 long after that he became a Union organiser and went to 7 Cairns, North Queensland, to head up their North Queensland 8 caper. I met - I did meet him - I didn't know him at 9 Indooroopilly, but I did meet him at Cairns Central, when 10 we were doing Cairns Central Shopping Centre, because he 11 was the organiser for the site, and if I remember rightly, 12 and this is what I remember, his wife had a baby that died 13 of SIDS and there was a fundraising thing that went on and 14 then he took this SIDS charity on. I may be wrong, but I'm 15 pretty sure that's the caper. 16 17 Q. So you have known him for, what, about 20 years? 18 A. I'd say so, yes. 19 20 Q. Shortly after you first came to know him, you became 21 aware that he had become an organiser at the BLF? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. Did you have much to do with him on the Cairns 25 project? 26 A. No. No. In our caper we try and dodge organisers. 27 So in answer to your question, no, it didn't happen because 28 we employed the appropriate amount of labourers that you 29 need. You would have involvement if you didn't have the 30 right ratio of labourers, which we did, we paid them 31 correctly, so he leaves us alone. 32 33 Q. When you say "paid them correctly", was that in 34 accordance with some enterprise bargaining agreement that 35 had been set up? 36 A. Yes, yes, I think EBAs were kicking around for 37 probably five years then. 38 39 Q. Was the negotiating representative on behalf of the 40 employees a representative of the BLF or some other Union? 41 A. Back in those days it would have been the CFMEU. The 42 BLF - I think nearly all EBAs was pretty much CFMEU with 43 the BLF's involvement, like, it was signed by all - you 44 know, every party. 45 46 Q. Yes. For how long has the company 47 Wadsworth Construction had EBAs that have been negotiated


1 with representatives of the CFMEU and/or the BLF? 2 A. At the outset, that would be easy. Since, I'm 3 guessing, 1995 because that's when Wadsworth Construction 4 kicked off. 5 6 Q. Did you actually see and meet Mr Hanna on the 7 Indooroopilly project 20 years ago? 8 A. No. 9 10 Q. You just knew of him back then; is that right? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. When was the first time you met him? 14 A. I'd say at Cairns Central. 15 16 Q. Cairns Central. In what capacity were you meeting? 17 Did you have to negotiate something with him? 18 A. No, not at all. He was always at the site because it 19 was the biggest site in Cairns and, you know, that's where 20 he was. 21 22 Q. Were you based in Cairns for that project? 23 A. No. I was a FIFO. 24 25 Q. Did you only meet him once on that project? 26 A. Look, I mean, I may have met him once or twice but it 27 was never other than around Multiplex's office because 28 that's where he used to loiter. 29 30 Q. Multiplex's office in Cairns? 31 A. The site office, yes. 32 33 Q. Then after the Cairns project, how often did you meet 34 Mr Hanna? 35 A. Once in a blue moon. 36 37 Q. What does that mean? 38 A. Well, you know, I might - there might be a social 39 gathering of the industry and he might be there. You'd say 40 g'day and keep walking. 41 42 Q. And how often did that occur - once a year, once 43 a month? What's a blue moon to you? 44 A. Oh, no, certainly, it would be more likely once 45 a year. 46 47 Q. Is this fair, that you would meet him about once


1 a year at a social function and have a conversation with 2 him? 3 A. No more than "G'day." 4 5 Q. Had you worked on any other projects, such as the 6 Cairns project, when Mr Hanna was a representative of the 7 BLF? 8 A. No, I think we packed it in. Once we'd finished 9 Cairns, we dumped a truckload of money, so we packed it in 10 and went home. 11 12 Q. Does that mean you haven't worked on large projects 13 that require an EBA to be in place between you and 14 employees? 15 A. Most definitely not. All - we - we only work on large 16 projects. 17 18 Q. Did Mr Hanna, to your knowledge, or the BLF, have any 19 interest in the Orion PAD 2 project? 20 A. No, not that I know of. 21 22 Q. Or any members of the BLF working on that project? 23 A. I'm sure there would have been a couple of members 24 there. 25 26 Q. What about CFMEU members? 27 A. Yes, there would have been, you know - nearly 28 everybody in the major game's in the brothers. 29 30 Q. Yes, including your employees? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. What did Mr McAllum ask you to do in relation to the 34 Cornubia house? 35 A. Well, clearly, Mr Shuttlewood, there was involvement 36 there, and I also remember because when the police came 37 they had a couple of quotes for plasterboard that I'd 38 arranged because I would have - and they showed me those 39 and I said, "Oh yeah, fair enough", and I remember getting 40 them because whilst we do plasterboard we're too expensive, 41 because, you know, we're full EBA, whereas you've got three 42 divisions in the world in construction. You've got 43 housing, which is Rafferty's Rules, and that's where if 44 you're doing a house, you need a housing contractor or 45 you're going to pay double the price. 46 47 Q. If I can just stop you there and I'll ask you to


1 listen carefully to the question. What did Mr McAllum ask 2 you to do in relation to the Cornubia house? 3 A. Well, he must have asked me to get some quotes for 4 plasterboard because the police had those and whatever was 5 in my file is what he asked me. 6 7 Q. All right. Did he explain to you why he wanted you to 8 do it? 9 A. Not at all. 10 11 Q. He could do that, couldn't he? 12 A. No. 13 14 Q. Surely, to your understanding, Mr McAllum was capable 15 of getting quotes for plasterboard? 16 A. Well, he got me to get them. 17 18 Q. Right. Did he explain to you why? 19 A. Because I knew people in the domestic housing game. 20 I'm guessing. He didn't explain to me why, but clearly, 21 sooner or later, he must have wanted me to pay for it. 22 23 Q. Why do you say that? 24 A. Because of Mr Shuttlewood. 25 26 Q. You say "clearly, sooner or later, he must have wanted 27 me to pay for it"? 28 A. Well, I'm just putting two and two together. If 29 you've got my file I'll be able to answer it. 30 31 Q. All right, we'll come to that in a moment. Did he say 32 something to you that indicated that you would have to pay 33 for the plasterboard that would be supplied for the 34 Cornubia house? 35 A. Well, I don't know if it's the plasterboard as such 36 but, you know, again, if I answered that, I would be making 37 it up. 38 39 Q. I just want you to reflect on this. Did Mr McAllum 40 say something to you that indicated you would have to pay 41 for the plasterboard that would be supplied for the 42 Cornubia house? 43 A. If he did, I don't recall what he said, would be the 44 honest answer. 45 46 Q. You did pay for some invoices, didn't you, for work on 47 the Cornubia house?


1 A. Well, clearly. 2 3 Q. Why did you do that? 4 A. Because I was told. 5 6 Q. By who? 7 A. Mat McAllum. 8 9 Q. And then who was going to cover your costs? 10 A. Well, I wasn't sure about that. 11 12 Q. Did he tell you? 13 A. Well, eventually he would. If you gave me the file 14 I'm pretty sure it would tell us. 15 16 Q. What did he tell you to do about it? 17 A. I don't know how many times I have to tell you. 18 Without the file - my wife died on 11 August, mate. I had 19 other things going in my head, not this. 20 21 Q. Mr Wadsworth, seriously, as you sit there in the 22 witness box now, you must know whether or not Mr McAllum 23 told you something about who was going to cover your costs 24 of those invoices? You don't seriously suggest you can't 25 remember that, do you? 26 A. Well, I do. If I had my file in front of me I could 27 look it up and say, "Yes", "Yes", because there it is, but 28 I can't remember right here and now. 29 30 Q. You remember that Mr McAllum told you to pay these 31 invoices that had nothing to do with you? 32 A. Mmm-hmm. 33 34 Q. This was a house at Cornubia. You didn't own it, did 35 you? 36 A. No. 37 38 Q. Well, what are you doing paying for it? 39 A. Because he told me to. 40 41 Q. If I tell you to pay for something, you're not going 42 to pay it, are you? Surely just because Mr McAllum tells 43 you to pay for it, you just don't go out and open your 44 cheque book? 45 A. No, no. 46 47 Q. Why did you do it?


1 A. Because he told me to. 2 3 Q. Yes. He told you to do it. Why did you just go along 4 with it? 5 A. Well, what would you suggest I do? 6 7 Q. Well, you could have said, "No. Why should I pay for 8 someone else's house?" 9 A. Yeah. 10 11 Q. Why didn't you say that? 12 A. Well, good point. 13 14 Q. That's not a serious answer, is it, Mr Wadsworth? 15 A. No, no, I'm trying to think why. Probably because 16 I didn't want to upset the cherry cart. 17 18 Q. Whose cherry cart? 19 A. Well, ultimately, Mirvac's. 20 21 Q. Did Mr McAllum say anything to you about how you would 22 be able to deal with the costs you had incurred in paying 23 invoices for the Cornubia property? Surely, you weren't 24 just going to wear these costs? 25 A. Well, I would have put them in my file and kept them 26 there if there wasn't - if he wasn't going to pay. 27 28 Q. If who wasn't going to pay? 29 A. Mat McAllum. 30 31 Q. And by Mat McAllum, do you mean him personally or 32 Mirvac? 33 A. Well, I'm assuming Mirvac. 34 35 Q. Did he say something that gave you the impression that 36 Mirvac would cover those costs? 37 A. That was out of my file. My file will tell me. 38 39 Q. As you sit there today, surely you can remember having 40 agreed to pay for rendering and other work done at 41 a residential property at Cornubia that had nothing to do 42 with you, surely you can remember what Mr McAllum told you 43 about how your costs would be covered? 44 A. I can't remember, but what I'm assuming, based on what 45 I saw there was and what I've gleaned from other things, is 46 that it may very well be covered in a variation. 47


1 Q. Is that something that you discussed with Mr McAllum? 2 A. Well, if I did a variation I would have had to because 3 he has to approve it. 4 5 Q. Is it your recollection that that's what you did? 6 A. Yes, but it would be better if I had my file because I 7 could tell you. 8 9 Q. But you would be able to recall, surely, if that is 10 what had happened and you said that that's your 11 recollection. You don't need the file to remember that, do 12 you? 13 A. Yes, I do. Hang on a minute. Do you remember 14 everything you tell people? 15 16 Q. Mr Wadsworth -- 17 A. Everything? 18 19 Q. -- we're not talking about everything that is said. 20 We're talking about you being asked to pay for work 21 performed at a residential house that had nothing to do 22 with you. This was a very unusual situation, wasn't it? 23 A. It was. 24 25 Q. And you remember, don't you, having discussions with 26 Mr McAllum about how this would be invoiced and who would 27 pay for it? 28 A. No, I don't, that must have come later. 29 30 Q. What must have come later? 31 A. That discussion you're talking about. 32 33 Q. You remember a discussion, you're just not sure when 34 it was? 35 A. Well, no, not - not necessarily. You know, if you 36 want - I'm supposed to be telling the truth. The truth is 37 I don't be able to tell you exactly what happened then. 38 39 Q. Well, you remember Mr McAllum telling you to pay these 40 invoices for a house at Cornubia that had nothing to do 41 with you. Yes? 42 A. Yes, I guess so. 43 44 Q. And surely you remember what he said to you about how 45 those costs that you incurred would be covered? 46 A. No, I don't, but I'm guessing from what I saw with 47 Adam Shuttlewood's thing on the thing there - I saw an


1 email that had Adam Shuttlewood's thing, his invoice, that 2 I had forwarded to Mat McAllum, so I'm guessing I've got 3 this invoice, what the hell am I doing with this? 4 5 Q. You wouldn't have agreed to pay that invoice, would 6 you, unless you had received an assurance that someone 7 would pay you back? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. You agree with that? 11 A. Yes, for sure, I'm not a complete idiot. 12 13 Q. Can I ask you to go to volume 6. You have said many 14 times this afternoon that the police took a folder from 15 you? 16 A. They did. 17 18 Q. That was a folder that you had maintained in respect 19 of the Orion Pad 2 project? 20 A. Yes, during the course of its thing and then I hadn't 21 looked at it for two years, which is why my memory is not 22 brilliant. 23 24 Q. You had in the folder a number of tabs with different 25 descriptions on them? 26 A. I'd expect so, yes. 27 28 Q. One of them had a label of "Cornubia" on it, didn't 29 it? 30 A. I guess it must have. 31 32 Q. Can you explain why you had maintained an Orion Pad 2 33 folder that had a section devoted to Cornubia? 34 A. Because that was - that was where it had come from. 35 36 Q. What do you mean "where it had come from"? 37 A. Anything that had to do with Cornubia came from 38 Mat McAllum and that job. 39 40 Q. But Cornubia -- 41 A. The first job I've ever had anything to do with him; 42 thank Christ, the last. 43 44 Q. Cornubia was a separate job, wasn't it, from the Pad 2 45 works? 46 A. Oh, definitely. 47


1 Q. A completely different part of Brisbane? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. A completely different project? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. Requiring completely different things? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. You filed the documents that you received in relation 11 to Cornubia in the Orion Pad 2 folder, didn't you? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. Why did you do that? 15 A. Because they were related. 16 17 Q. What was the relationship between the two? 18 A. Mat McAllum. 19 20 Q. If you can go in volume 6 through to page 1976 -- 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. -- this is a copy of the last page that appears in 24 your Orion Pad 2 folder in the section headed, "Cornubia"? 25 A. Right. 26 27 Q. What I am going to do is to work forward in this 28 bundle from page 1976, for example, back to page 1975, 29 because your Cornubia section of the Orion Pads 2 folder, 30 like every other section of that folder, appears to be 31 organised so that in each section the earliest document you 32 have received appears at the back and as you receive new 33 material, you add it to the front of the document, and so 34 on, so that is its chronological order -- 35 36 THE COMMISSIONER: That is quite common, the Commonwealth 37 Public Service does that. 38 39 THE WITNESS: Under normal circumstances, but I would have 40 put Cornubia at the back. 41 42 MR ELLIOTT: Q. Yes. 43 A. At the back, no matter when I got it, because it was 44 to be separate. 45 46 Q. That's right. You had a series of tabs in your folder 47 and each section was separate and the filing system you


1 adopted was to receive a document on a particular date, put 2 it in the relevant section of the folder that it was 3 supposed to go in, and then if a week or two later you 4 received another document for that section, you would then 5 put it on top of the existing materials? 6 A. Yes. Notwithstanding if there was something to do 7 with Cornubia, that would have happened at the bottom. 8 9 Q. That's right, in the relevant section of the folder in 10 which it was to go. If we move forward through the 11 materials, we see some plans, and then after the plans, at 12 page 1945, there is a document that I want to ask you some 13 questions about. 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. What is this document? 17 A. 1945. It looks like some window sizes maybe. Living 18 room fixed - let me look at the one before it. 19 20 Q. Is it a document that relates to the Cornubia house? 21 A. It looks like it, yes. 22 23 Q. When did you receive this document? 24 A. Is this out of my file? 25 26 Q. Yes. 27 A. Is there an email header from Mat McAllum? 28 29 Q. No. 30 A. Anywhere in there? Because the only way I would have 31 got it would have been by email. 32 33 Q. You don't recall receiving this document? 34 A. I beg your pardon? 35 36 Q. You don't recall receiving this document? 37 A. I'm pretty sure that may be - it would have been 38 a document that I would have got to perhaps forward to some 39 housing plasterers for a price. 40 41 Q. Is that your writing at the top in the right-hand 42 corner? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. "Nat" and "Mat", who's that? 46 A. Well, Nat and Mat - Nat was just Mat's assistant but 47 I don't believe she knew anything about this.


1 2 Q. Why have you written her name on this piece of paper? 3 A. I can't - I might have been writing notes and stuff. 4 I really don't - you know, I can see that I've written 5 "sarking" and "insulation", question mark, because that's 6 what a plasterer would ask. I don't know why - well, I'm 7 not sure why I've written "Nat"; I would understand why 8 I've written "Mat." 9 10 Q. Let's go forward to the next page, 1944. 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. This seems to be an electronic request for a meeting? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. You will see the date is 23 April 2013? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. From Mr McAllum to yourself and Mr Moore? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. 29 April, and you will see underneath that: 23 24 Subject: Discuss Cornubia 25 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. 29 When: Monday, 29 April 2013 ... 30 31 Do you see that? 32 A. Yes, 7.30am, I've written that. 33 34 Q. "Where: ... Kawana", do you see that? 35 A. Yes, but I've got a feeling that is a meeting room 36 name. 37 38 Q. Then you'll see the message underneath those details: 39 40 Glen, 41 42 Meeting at Mirvac Office. 43 44 Regards 45 Mat 46 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. Had Mr McAllum spoken to you about the Cornubia 3 property by this date? 4 A. Well, I'm guessing that's where it's come from. At 5 that point it must have raised its head. 6 7 Q. It says "Discuss Cornubia"? 8 A. Yes, yes, that's what I'm saying. It must be 9 discussing Cornubia. 10 11 Q. Surely he's mentioned the subject of Cornubia to you 12 before 23 April if he's sending you this meeting invitation 13 on 23 April? It didn't just come out of the blue, did it? 14 A. I would - I would suggest it has. 15 16 Q. All right. It's at about the same time that you are 17 being invited to tender for the Orion Pad 2 project? 18 A. It looks like it, doesn't it? Based on that other one 19 we looked that before, that was late April, that's the 23rd 20 of the 4th. 21 22 Q. Yes, it was within a day or two. 23 A. Well -- 24 25 Q. You're discussing Cornubia and putting together your 26 quote for Orion PAD 2 at the same time, aren't you? 27 A. Well, I'm not sure where - what - whether they went 28 hand in hand or maybe they were just - or Mat was just 29 letting me know that this Cornubia thing was happening. 30 31 Q. They were happening at the same time, weren't they? 32 You were talking to Mr McAllum about doing things on the 33 Cornubia house at the same time as you were putting 34 together your quote for the Orion PAD 2 project, that's 35 right, isn't it? 36 A. It looks that way. 37 38 Q. Can I ask you to go forward a few pages to page 1941. 39 It is a document that is sideways, so you might have to 40 turn that folder around. 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. Can you just explain this document to me? 44 A. It looks like a fit-out price. 45 46 Q. Right. For what? 47 A. Well, what does it say here? What have we got? MDF,


1 skirting, arcs, internal doors, jambs and arcs, jambs, so 2 it's got to be inside. 3 4 Q. Inside what? Inside the Cornubia house? 5 A. Well, if it was in the Cornubia file, I'd suggest so. 6 7 Q. It was in the Cornubia file after plans for the house? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. Did you undertake some measuring using Cornubia house 11 plans for the purposes of preparing a costing for some 12 works to be done to the internal portions of the house? 13 A. Yes, that looks like it. 14 15 Q. Why did you do that? 16 A. We would have been asked. 17 18 Q. By who? 19 A. Mat McAllum. 20 21 Q. Did he ask you to provide a quote for doing that work? 22 A. Well, I would - well, I wouldn't have done it if he 23 didn't. 24 25 Q. There is a slight difference between asking for 26 a quote and asking for some information about how much 27 something would cost. Was Wadsworth Construction being 28 asked to submit a quote for doing this work? 29 A. Well, by the look of that it looks like it, yes. 30 31 Q. Was that something that was discussed at the meeting 32 that was contemplated by the message at 1944? 33 A. I'd suggest probably. 34 35 Q. Was it done shortly after that meeting? 36 A. What, the quote? 37 38 Q. Yes. 39 A. Hang on, let's have a look here. Here's the quote 40 that the coppers had. 41 42 Q. I'm asking you about the document at -- 43 A. Yes, but I need this to correlate it to the date, 44 because you do the fix-out after you do the plasterboard. 45 46 Q. What is the "this" that you're saying you need to 47 correlate it? What is the quote that the coppers had that


1 you -- 2 A. This one, 1933, CRA, and that was dated -- 3 4 Q. You will see that at the top of the page under the 5 heading, "Quotation"? 6 A. Oh, yeah, 17/7/2013, so I would suggest that this 7 quote was done after that, or during the course of putting 8 that together. 9 10 Q. But you didn't need the document at 1933, did you, for 11 the document at 1941? 12 A. Well, I did to try and come up with an answer for you 13 in relation to when that was done. 14 15 Q. Could you just explain to me which portion would 16 correlate for me the work described at 1933 under the 17 heading "Inclusions", how that work connects with the work 18 in your quote at 1941? 19 A. Yes, I can. When you build things you do the framing, 20 then you do the rough-in, then it gets lined. This quote 21 is for the linings. Then that take off that we've done 22 there is for the fix-out which follows after, which is why 23 I wanted to try and work that out so I could answer you. 24 25 Q. Do you need the quote at 1933? I understand the 26 sequencing you're describing, the programming, that's one 27 thing, but do you need a quote for the phase 1 that you 28 have just described in order to do, for yourself, the quote 29 for phase 2 that's at 1941? You don't need to know the 30 price, do you? 31 A. Well, I might - well, I'm looking at - just because - 32 this is my file, so now it's good, I can actually answer 33 you. What I'm doing is looking at my handwriting. So then 34 there's your document 1937, which is the one you started 35 on, I think - no, that was - that's the one where we've 36 done -- 37 38 Q. 1941. I am asking you about 1941. 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. Which is a quote for woodwork fit-out. 42 A. It is, yes. 43 44 Q. Skirting, arch, doors, internal doors and jambs. None 45 of that is, is it, the work that's contemplated at 1933? 46 A. No, it's follow-up work as per the sequence that we 47 discussed.


1 2 Q. That's right. You don't need the price for the work 3 at 1933 -- 4 A. Well, I might have. 5 6 Q. -- in order to work out the price for different and 7 later works that are the subject of 1941, do you? 8 A. No, I wouldn't, but in the normal course of things 9 I wouldn't have worried about that until the plasterboard 10 was done. 11 12 Q. All right. Can we move forward to 1937. 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Tell me what that is? 16 A. That's our quote - that's not our quote, that was our 17 take-off of the plasterboard, plasterboard value, right, so 18 we've said, by the look of that - so that was us working 19 out what a value would be for that plasterboard. 20 21 Q. Why were you doing that? 22 A. Because we would have been asked to. 23 24 Q. But for what purpose? Were you contemplating doing 25 this work or organising for it to be done? 26 A. Well, we were, no doubt, asked to do that. 27 28 Q. Were you contemplating at the time -- 29 A. It even says "Mirvac House." 30 31 Q. Were you contemplating at the time doing work at the 32 Cornubia property, arranging for subcontractors such as CRA 33 or someone else to provide various items, you would then do 34 the work and charge for it? 35 A. No. We didn't do anything on that house. 36 37 Q. What were you contemplating at the time? Why were you 38 putting these prices together? 39 A. Because I would have been asked to, for a budget for 40 the gooses. 41 42 Q. For what? 43 A. For Mat McAllum, the gooses. 44 45 Q. Well, "Gooses" is plural. 46 A. Well, gooses, Mat McAllum and Mirvac. I assumed that 47 this - you know, it had something to do with Mirvac.


1 2 Q. Right, but you weren't going to do any of the work? 3 A. No. 4 5 Q. But you were preparing prices for it? 6 A. I was assisting, yeah. 7 8 Q. You remember that, do you? 9 A. I do because you gave me my file. 10 11 Q. You remember Mr McAllum asking you to, as a favour to 12 him, just submit some pricing without having any 13 expectation of doing the work or charging for it, is that 14 what you say? 15 A. At that point, yeah. 16 17 Q. You remember that? 18 A. Well, I remember - I remember looking at these files 19 and the notes, you know. There's no - there's no way 20 I would wasted all this time dicking around with this if I 21 wasn't asked to do it. 22 23 Q. Do you remember being asked to do it? 24 A. I assume it may have been at that meeting that 25 we - that document earlier that I went to. 26 27 Q. You were asked to submit pricing for works to the 28 Cornubia house, but not on the basis that you would be 29 doing or arranging for any of the work to be done, is that 30 what you are saying? 31 A. I believe so, yeah. 32 33 Q. You give that evidence seriously, do you? 34 A. Well, I know this much, I always try and dodge work on 35 houses, always. I just don't want to get involved in it. 36 That's - you know, I don't know, but you have, you know, 37 a mindset: don't do any work on houses. 38 39 Q. Mr Wadsworth, you may think this is funny -- 40 A. I don't, I don't think it's funny at all. 41 42 Q. This is a Royal Commission and you are under your 43 oath. 44 A. Yeah. 45 46 Q. I am asking you, do you seriously suggest that you 47 were asked to submit pricing for works to the Cornubia


1 house but not on the basis that you would be doing or 2 arranging for any of that work to be done, is that what 3 you're saying, on your oath at this Royal Commission 4 hearing? 5 A. Say that again? 6 7 Q. Are you seriously giving evidence that you were asked 8 to submit pricing for works to the Cornubia house but not 9 on the basis that you would be doing or arranging for any 10 of that work to be done, is that what you say? 11 A. The last bit I'm not sure about. Certainly, you know, 12 the last bit I'm not sure about, but then clearly, we have 13 some involvement. 14 15 Q. You're not sure about whether or not you had -- 16 A. At the time that we were putting the prices, that 17 I would have anything to do with it, yes. 18 19 Q. You are not sure whether or not you would do or 20 arrange for the work to be done; is that right? 21 A. At that time? 22 23 Q. At that time. 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. Did you regard it as a possibility? 27 A. Reluctantly. 28 29 Q. Yes? 30 A. Yeah, reluctantly, meaning yes, reluctantly. 31 32 Q. Otherwise you wouldn't have done the pricing, 33 would you? 34 A. Well, I think it was more a budget, you know. 35 Everyone - people have budgets, so I was assuming I was 36 assisting them getting some budgeting together. 37 38 Q. When you say "assisting them", what, the Hannas or -- 39 A. At Mirvac. 40 41 Q. You keep referring them in the plural, "gooses", 42 "assisting them", but whenever you're pressed about that, 43 you come back and say, "Well, Mat McAllum or Mirvac." Did 44 you know that the Hannas were the owners of the house at 45 that time? 46 A. Yeah. Well, I knew they had some involvement because, 47 you know, the plans had their name on it, yeah.


1 2 Q. You were being asked to submit a quote, were you, by 3 Mr McAllum for doing this work and it remained up in the 4 air as to whether or not you would, in fact, do it; is that 5 right? 6 A. That's true. 7 8 Q. Can we move forward to page 1935. 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. What's this document? 12 A. That's a timesheet. 13 14 Q. For what? 15 A. For a job - "Indooroopilly", it says. 16 17 Q. Who was that job for, just remind me again? 18 A. Multiplex. 19 20 Q. Are you sure about that? 21 A. Indooroopilly? 22 23 Q. Mmm. 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. It's dated 16 July 2013. 27 A. Yes. Well, it's a bit - like I said, at the top 28 there, "Indooroopilly Redevelopment", and that's what it 29 is. 30 31 Q. And then underneath that "Week ending" is that 16 July 32 2013? 33 A. Well, it would be, because, if you see, I've stamped 34 it and put 17th of the 7th, meaning that I would 35 have - I check the wages weekly and that's when I stamp so 36 I understand who's where and what. 37 38 Q. What's that doing filed in the Cornubia section of the 39 Orion Pad 2 file? 40 A. I don't know. The police also took a payroll file and 41 probably mixed them up, I'd suggest. 42 43 Q. No, there's been no alteration to your file, 44 Mr Wadsworth. 45 A. Well, I can tell you, there's no reason why that 46 should be in there. It's got no real relation to it, as 47 far as I can see.


1 2 Q. It's got nothing to do with Cornubia? 3 A. Not a thing. 4 5 Q. Could you go forward, please, to page 1934. Do you 6 see at the bottom of the page there's an email from 7 Jason Manley Painting to you? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. "RE: Cornubia"? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. 16 July 2013. 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. 17 Hi Glen, 18 19 Going on the 500 sq metres of floor area, 20 the cost internally would be around 15k, 21 some blokes could do it cheaper ... 22 23 Et cetera. And then: 24 25 The soffits and downpipes externally would 26 be another couple of grand ... 27 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. Had you asked is it Mr Manley, is it Jason Manley? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Had you asked him for a price? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. For painting the Cornubia house? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. Why did you do that? 40 A. Because Mat McAllum asked me to. 41 42 Q. When did that happen? 43 A. During the course of all of this. Like, that's dated 44 the 17th of the 7th, so I'm guessing, you know, he may have 45 asked a week or two earlier, I'm not sure. 46 47 Q. But what are you doing running around getting painting


1 quotes for the Cornubia house? 2 A. Because I was asked to. 3 4 Q. You weren't in the business of painting, were you? 5 A. No. Not in houses. Like I say, we dodge them. 6 7 Q. So did Mr McAllum say to you at some point he didn't 8 just want a price for internal partitioning and so on, he 9 also wanted a price for painting? 10 A. Obviously. 11 12 Q. Did he talk to you about how the cost of that would be 13 covered? 14 A. He must have. Let me have a look. I'll see if I can 15 find it. On that piece of paper - what was his number 16 again? 17 18 Q. 1934. 19 A. Righto. So, 1934, at the top, I have "V". That would 20 mean it's a variation, it hasn't got a number yet. 21 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. But somewhere in the file, you'll probably find 24 a variation number that matches it, I would expect. 25 26 Q. Does that indicate to you, or refresh your 27 recollection, that you had a conversation with Mr McAllum 28 about how the cost of painting the Cornubia house would be 29 covered? 30 A. I must of because on that one that I forwarded him 31 with the quotes, I've written "V." Like, I mean, 32 I forwarded the quote from Manley Painting to Mat McAllum 33 and then written "V" on it. So, somewhere along the line 34 it must have been said, righto, "vary". 35 36 Q. That would be your standard practice, would it, to 37 write "V" -- 38 A. Yeah. 39 40 Q. -- if there had been a discussion and agreement of 41 that kind? 42 A. Yeah. 43 44 Q. That email that you referred to is at the top of the 45 page from yourself to Mr McAllum; you forwarded on 46 Mr Manley's quote? 47 A. Mmm-hmm.


1 2 Q. And you say: 3 4 Also will have some housing plasterers 5 prices in due course! 6 7 A. Yes, that will be CRA and any others. 8 9 Q. Yes. Hence, is it the case that after you sent 10 that - if we're following your standard practice, and we 11 see the "V" written on this piece of paper, is this the 12 case that you would have sent that email, printed it out, 13 then had some sort of discussion with Mr McAllum about 14 variation to the Orion Pad 2 price and written "V" on this 15 document? 16 A. Yes. Well, that's why I was looking before. I went 17 to the last progress claim I did and looked at the 18 variations. So I'm guessing it's probably something to do 19 with variation number 3. 20 21 Q. All right. Okay. We'll get to that. Just looking at 22 this email, who do you know to be the owner of the email 23 address in the "cc" line at page 1934? 24 A. That's the painter. 25 26 Q. That's Mr Manley? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. Okay. When you mentioned variation 3 a moment ago, 30 was that in relation to the painting or the ceiling? 31 A. That's under the painting - it's in the painting 32 contract because they were two different contracts, 33 I think. 34 35 Q. Yes, they were. 36 A. That was why I was looking to see if I could correlate 37 it because, at last, I have my file. 38 39 Q. Very good. Can we move forward through the portion of 40 the bundle in the same way. You will see at page 1931, 41 a copy of a tax invoice from Shuttlewood to Wadsworth 42 Construction. 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. We see there what looks to be some initials near the 46 box "Tax Invoice"? 47 A. Yes. That's me.


1 2 Q. Is that some kind of electronic stamp? 3 A. No, it's a stamp. The one with ink in it and you go 4 "bang". 5 6 Q. So you put a stamp on documents that you receive and 7 read; is that right? 8 A. Usually. Particularly stuff like that. 9 10 Q. And you put a date? 11 A. Yeah, and there it is, 19/7. 12 13 Q. And that's the date that you received and read the 14 document? 15 A. Well, I might have got it the day before but that was 16 when I stamped it and -- 17 18 Q. If we go forward a couple of pages to page 1929 -- 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. -- you will see at the bottom of the page an email 22 from Mrs Shuttlewood to you of 19 July 2013 to 23 Glen Wadsworth: 24 25 Please find your tax invoice attached. 26 27 That seems to be the invoice we were looking at at 28 page 1931? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. Had you had any dealings with Mr Shuttlewood or 32 Mrs Shuttlewood about this? 33 A. Wouldn't know them from a bar of soap. 34 35 Q. Did this email come as a complete surprise to you? 36 A. Are we talking 1929? 37 38 Q. That's right, at the bottom of the page. 39 A. To Glen Wadsworth. No, because I would have put two 40 and two together. 41 42 Q. Had Mr McAllum discussed this with you; that is, that 43 you would be receiving an email from Shuttlewood Building 44 Services? 45 A. I would assume so, because then I've forwarded it to 46 him and said "4y approval" and he's forwarded it back 47 saying "No problem with the amount."


1 2 Q. Right. 3 A. I asked him to change the address, what it says there. 4 5 Q. Do you accept in all probability that you had 6 a conversation with Mr McAllum? 7 A. Nuh. I forwarded it to him straight away. 8 9 Q. Right. But before you received the email from 10 Mrs Shuttlewood, do you accept it's likely that you had 11 a conversation with Mr McAllum about the fact that you 12 would shortly receive this invoice? 13 A. It would seem to make sense. 14 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. But I must say, mostly - you know, I usually 17 communicate mainly through email because otherwise you 18 spend half the day getting your ear cooked. 19 20 Q. Did you notice the invoice was addressed to your 21 company? 22 A. Yep, that's why I forwarded it on to him. 23 24 Q. Yes. We see that in the middle of page 1929. 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. And then at the top of page 1929, there is an email 28 back from Mr McAllum to you: 29 30 Glen, 31 32 No problems with the amount. I have asked 33 them to change the description of the 34 works. A revised invoice will be coming 35 through. 36 37 There will be another invoice next week for 38 the painting which has been included in the 39 amount advised previously for you to 40 invoice us. 41 42 Now, is he, as you understood it, there talking about an 43 invoice that you were going to submit for the Orion Pad 2 44 project? 45 A. Well, it would have been a vary. Like what I say, you 46 know, somewhere in there there will be something with a "V" 47 and a V number on it.


1 2 Q. For the Orion Pad 2 project? 3 A. Yep. 4 5 Q. Do you recall having a discussion with Mr McAllum 6 about invoicing in accordance with such a variation 7 process? 8 A. 9 ... in the amount advised previously for 10 your invoice to us. 11 12 Q. So you agree that that creates an impression that he 13 previously had had a discussion with you? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. About invoicing for Orion PAD 2, and that the amount 17 that you would claim would include -- 18 A. Yeah, it looks like it. 19 20 Q. -- at least the costs you incurred in paying invoices 21 submitted to you by Shuttlewood Building Services? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. And you say, as you recall it, that would have been 25 done by way of a variation submitted under the Orion Pad 2? 26 A. That's the only way. 27 28 Q. All right. If we move forward to the next page, 1928, 29 you will see there a revised version of the invoice that is 30 at 1931. The description of the work has been changed to 31 remove any reference to "Cornubia"? 32 A. Which, I think, was covered in that email that you 33 read. 34 35 Q. Yes. And that was something that you noticed at the 36 time? 37 A. Yeah. 38 39 Q. Did you think that was strange? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. Did you think that was done because the home was owned 43 by the Hannas and it was important to ensure that that fact 44 wasn't revealed in the invoice? 45 A. Well, that may be one thing, but also it would be 46 because Mirvac, being a listed company, have auditors 47 crawling over them.


1 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. So, you know, that would be more the reason that 4 I would expect, personally. 5 6 Q. Did you talk to Mr McAllum about this? 7 A. No. I just do what he tells me to do. 8 9 Q. Did you talk to Mr Hanna about it? 10 A. No. I never spoke to him about his house till out the 11 front there when I saw him before. 12 13 Q. Right. 14 A. And he actually said to me, "You didn't do nothing at 15 my house", and I said, "No." 16 17 Q. You just paid a whole lot of invoices? 18 A. It seems that way. 19 20 Q. And passed them on to Mirvac? 21 A. Do what you're told. 22 23 Q. Yes. So you didn't do nothing. You paid a whole lot 24 of invoices and then passed them on to Mirvac, it's not 25 funny at all, is it? 26 A. It's not what? 27 28 Q. Not funny at all, is it? 29 A. Did I say it was funny? 30 31 Q. You then received, did you, a tax invoice in relation 32 to painting works? 33 A. I would have. 34 35 Q. That's the one at 1927. 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. And you paid that? 39 A. It looks like it must have got - even the dates, I've 40 seen it on the 22nd of the 7th for some reason. Oh, that 41 must be the painting one he talks about in that email. 42 43 Q. You then arranged for the cost of that to be covered 44 by a variation claim on the Orion Pad 2 project? 45 A. I'd assume so. I'll just have a look and see if I can 46 find a correlating number. Without wasting your time, 47 I would think that was --


1 2 Q. It is not a waste of time at all, Mr Wadsworth. 3 A. Someone has taken these out of order. Probably you 4 blokes when you were looking for stuff because they sit on 5 top of each other as they go, as far as progress claims go, 6 and they're not like that in this folder. If I can find 7 the last progress claim which will have all varies on it. 8 There we go, there's one, that'll do us. Which one are we 9 looking for now? Shuttlewood, was it? 10 11 Q. That's right. 12 A. I'd reckon that'll be V1 because it clearly says 13 "Shuttlewood Building Services. Invoice." 14 15 Q. We will come back to that, Mr Wadsworth. I'd suggest 16 that it may not be that one. We will come back to the 17 variation documents shortly. Can I just take you back now 18 to the chronological sequence of your file and take you to 19 page 1924. Do you have that page? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. You will see at the top of the page there is an email, 23 another copy of the email we looked at earlier. 24 A. Right. 25 26 Q. Mr Manley's quote? 27 A. Mmm-hmm. 28 29 Q. And is that your handwriting "$2,500"? 30 A. It would be, yes. 31 32 Q. Then if we come across to the next page, 1923, do you 33 see there a tax invoice to your company or to Wadsworth, in 34 any event, from Jason Manley for $15,000? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. If you come forward another page, 1922, we see another 38 invoice to Wadsworth from Jason Manley for $2,500? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. So both of those invoices are, are they not, the 42 invoices submitted by Jason Manley for painting work done 43 to the Cornubia house? 44 A. I would suggest so, yes. 45 46 Q. We get that, don't we, from the document back at 1924, 47 Mr Manley's email to you about internal painting costs


1 $15,000 -- 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. -- and some additional works outside; you have written 5 "$2,500"? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Did you pay both of those invoices from Jason Manley? 9 A. I did. 10 11 Q. By you, I mean the company? 12 A. Yeah. 13 14 Q. If you go forward another page to 1921, we see a tax 15 invoice from L.A.D Services to Wadsworth Constructions; do 16 you see that? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. "Plastering & Carpentry Services". 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. And you will see $36,000. 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. "Total: $39,600", including GST. 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. That has been filed under the "Cornubia" section of 29 your file? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. So was that an invoice for work done at the Cornubia 33 house? 34 A. Yep. 35 36 Q. Did you arrange for that work to be done? 37 A. Nuh. 38 39 Q. Who did, to your knowledge? 40 A. Mat McAllum. 41 42 Q. Why, to your understanding, did L.A.D Services invoice 43 you? 44 A. Because he would have told them to. 45 46 Q. Did he tell you that that's what he'd arranged? 47 A. I'm guessing he must of because otherwise I wouldn't


1 have paid it. 2 3 Q. You did pay it? 4 A. Wouldn't have paid it without his approval. 5 6 Q. Your company paid it? 7 A. Yeah. 8 9 Q. And what was discussed with Mr McAllum in terms of how 10 the costs you had incurred in paying all of these invoices 11 would be met? 12 A. Well, it looks to me like they're covered under some 13 variations. 14 15 Q. Whilst you might not recall the precise words used, do 16 you remember that you and Mr McAllum agreed at some point 17 that you would claim for the costs incurred by you in 18 meeting these invoices by making a variation claim on the 19 Orion Pad 2 project? 20 A. I don't remember words, but I do know that I've done 21 that. So, you know, he wouldn't have paid it unless he'd 22 told me to do that. 23 24 Q. And you wouldn't have paid these invoices unless he 25 had told you that your costs for doing so would be covered? 26 A. Yep. 27 28 Q. By way of variation to the Orion Pad 2 contract price? 29 A. Yep. Well, that's what this indicates. 30 31 Q. Can I just ask you about the handwriting at page 1921. 32 A. Yep. 33 34 Q. Is all of that handwriting your handwriting? 35 A. Yep. 36 37 Q. So you wrote "Orion T2" on that document? Do you see 38 that? 39 A. Yeah. I would have written that, yeah. 40 41 Q. Does that indicate to you that you probably had 42 a discussion with Mr McAllum of the kind that you've just 43 outlined, namely -- 44 A. That indicates to me for our job costing that that's 45 where that would go. 46 47 Q. I see. And then you've written underneath it,


1 "Hogs Breath Fit Out 1"? 2 A. Yep. 3 4 Q. Why have you written that there? 5 A. Because I think, looking at this, that it would 6 be - looking at my scribble there -- 7 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. -- it looks to me like there must have been a deletion 10 at Hog's Breath in the original contract work. 11 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. And - so, say the 40k was covered by 37 deletion and 14 I've written what I've put - I've written something there, 15 less 67, 9k balance. So there may be a 9k balance 16 somewhere. Let's have a little squizzle. In the 17 variations the DD ones would be - they are actually 18 day - like, it's done here for - by my guys. So, those 19 ones aren't anything to do with what you're looking for. 20 21 Q. You've lost me, Mr Wadsworth. 22 A. Well, I'm looking at 1997. 23 24 Q. 1997. 25 A. Right. 26 27 Q. For the record, that is Progress Claim Number 5 28 submitted by Wadsworth in respect of the painting contract 29 for the Orion PAD 2 project? 30 A. That's it. 31 32 Q. It lists a whole lot of variations that may or may not 33 be accurate descriptions of the work? 34 A. Well, that's why - and what I said was the DDs, which 35 is from 6 to 10, are ones that are done on day works. So, 36 that will be, "Go paint this bit on site", you know, and 37 they're backed up. They're found - they're in here, right, 38 those ones. So they aren't what you're looking for. They 39 actually happened on the Pad Site. 40 41 Q. And what about ones that don't have a "DD" on them? 42 A. Well, like I said before, V3 seemed to relate to maybe 43 the paint. 44 45 Q. Yes. 46 A. And one of them relates to Mr Shuttlewood. 47 Mr Shuttlewood did do some work at the job, the job proper,


1 right. 2 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. What he said was correct. 5 6 Q. I want you to assume that the first and the last 7 items, 1 and 11, concern that work and not Cornubia work. 8 A. No, because isn't that - what is Mr Shuttlewood's 9 invoice number? 10 11 Q. Just as a matter of time, I just want you to assume 12 that that's the case. 13 A. Righto. You're in charge. 14 15 Q. Thank you. Now, where do you think we find the 16 variations that were submitted for the purpose of covering 17 costs incurred by your company on the Cornubia house? 18 Possibly variation 3? 19 A. Yes. I'd say 3 to 4 and maybe 1. 20 21 Q. But not on the assumption I've given you? 22 A. No. That's just a quick glossing looking for what 23 I might - what we're looking for. 24 25 Q. Is it possible that some of the DD items were 26 misdescriptions in that they in fact related to work at 27 Cornubia? 28 A. No. I don't think so. I'll just tell you why in 29 a minute. 30 31 Q. Yes. 32 A. Because we've got the two contracts, I'm looking at 33 one here, V1 and V2. 34 35 Q. You will find the ceiling and partition progress claim 36 that conveniently sets out variations to that separate 37 contract at page 2013. I think it is convenient for you, 38 Commissioner, and you, Mr Wadsworth, just to see that the 39 variation claims in their full, one can find them at page 40 1997 for the painting package and page 2013 for the ceiling 41 and partition package. 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. So far you have identified variations 3 and 4 in the 45 painting package at page 1997 as possible candidates for 46 the process of covering Cornubia costs. 47 A. Mmm.


1 2 Q. And the question I asked you was whether, keeping with 3 page 1997, is it possible that some of the references, even 4 though they use the numerals and the lettering "DD", and so 5 on -- 6 A. No, not correct. 7 8 Q. -- and what you were doing was taking me to the 9 documents. 10 A. No, I'm trying to find - because I just saw those day 11 dockets, right, and they were signed on site by 12 Marco Bedano. 13 14 Q. And you don't think he had anything to do with -- 15 A. Nothing. 16 17 Q. -- Cornubia house or -- 18 A. Nothing. 19 20 Q. -- preparing documents that would disguise how these 21 costs were allocated? 22 A. Yeah, there it is. Okay. So you've got 2006, 2007, 23 they're the two for that. 24 25 Q. Yes. 26 A. Right. So if you have a look at those: "Install 27 security mesh above amenities", and what - you know, 28 there's actually a Neumann Steel, that happened. 29 30 Q. Yes. 31 A. And then the other one, "Remove and reframe for 32 demolition of tilt" - yeah, there was some tilt panel 33 stuff-up, so a tilt panel had to be demo'd and rebuilt. 34 35 Q. But they're variations 1 and 2? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. There does not seem to be documents of that kind for 39 variations 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 -- 40 A. But they should be. 41 42 Q. -- referred to at 1997. 43 A. Unless somehow when the police had it and were pulling 44 it apart, they put it back in not the colour - the order 45 that I would file it at. 46 47 Q. For present purposes and to save time, your present


1 thinking is that those variations with the "DD" might be 2 candidates for -- 3 A. No, definitely not. 4 5 Q. So we have 3 and 4 at page 1997. What about 6 page 2013, the variations for ceiling and partitions, do 7 any of those look suspect? 8 A. No. I'm pretty -- 9 10 Q. What about number 3? 11 A. 3, "additional walls". See, there should be backup 12 info. I don't know what's happened to - you know -- 13 14 Q. If there's not backup info -- 15 A. Well, they're not -- 16 17 Q. -- would that be an indicator that they may not be 18 genuine variations? 19 A. No, because there's backup info for the others. 20 21 Q. I understand. But if there is no backup information, 22 does that suggest to you - and I'm not saying whether there 23 is or there isn't, but if you assume there isn't, say, any 24 backup documentation for variation 3 -- 25 A. No, we need email - on variation 3 there's an email - 26 if you could direct me to Roger Radford's email, the 6th of 27 the 8th, where is that? I don't know. Who took my file? 28 I certainly didn't take it out. So it should be in my 29 file, wherever my file is. 30 31 Q. And if there is no such email -- 32 A. Well, there would have to be. 33 34 Q. -- either at your end or Mirvac's end -- 35 A. There would have to be. I wouldn't do it otherwise. 36 37 Q. Well, you have already indicated - I withdraw that. 38 Can we come back to the documentation at 1921. 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. I was taking you through the handwriting. 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. And you indicated how there had been a deletion from 45 the Hog's Breath component of the works? 46 A. Well, that's what it looks like to me. 47


1 Q. You then have "77k" which seems to be the total of the 2 paint, "40k" and "Hog's Breath 37k"? 3 A. Mmm-hmm. 4 5 Q. Have you then written "less $67,723"? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. "= 9K bal" - for balance? 9 A. Yeah. 10 11 Q. Can you explain that calculation for me? 12 A. Okay. So on - by the look of that, I would suggest 13 that the 40 grand is for the paint. 14 15 Q. What paint? 16 A. I'll just go a bit further and just have a bit of 17 a look here. 18 19 MR ELLIOTT: Mr Commissioner, there are really two options 20 at this point. I note the time. I don't think I will be 21 very much longer with Mr Wadsworth. I think I would finish 22 in the next 20 minutes or so, but I do notice that 23 Mr Wadsworth is taking his time, as he should, with this 24 material. 25 26 One option is to ask him to take these documents away, 27 reflect on what I am asking him about, what all of these 28 figures mean, and come back tomorrow and I can ask him 29 those questions then. The other option is to battle on, as 30 it were, and finish in the next few minutes. 31 32 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, the thing is that there is 33 about 20 or perhaps more people in the room. The first 34 option has considerable attraction because it may be that 35 Mr Wadsworth, by himself, with the papers can work out 36 explanations for the relationship of two documents or two 37 events. 38 39 MR ELLIOTT: Yes. 40 41 THE COMMISSIONER: That is the course I would prefer. 42 43 MR ELLIOTT: I am perfectly content with that course, 44 Commissioner, with respect. 45 46 THE WITNESS: I -- 47


1 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Wadsworth? 2 3 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm not - I'd be happy to finish today 4 because, you know, I come from the Gold Coast and I was 5 halfway here yesterday and whatnot, so I'd be keen to get 6 it resolved. I'm just looking here now and I think I can 7 make sense out of it. 8 9 THE COMMISSIONER: Just one moment, Mr Wadsworth. Is 10 there any short witness who might have travel difficulties, 11 who might be disposed of this afternoon, and while that 12 witness is being disposed of, Mr Wadsworth can conduct the 13 examination of documents you just mentioned. 14 15 MR ELLIOTT: Commissioner, would you just give me one 16 moment. My learned leader is taking the next witness and 17 I might just ask how long. 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: Ms McNaughton usually takes long 20 witnesses, not short ones. 21 22 Mr Wadsworth, you just keep working away as best you 23 can. 24 25 Does the order of witnesses matter? 26 27 MR ELLIOTT: No, Commissioner. We think that the next 28 witness, Mr Garlick, would be dealt with relatively 29 quickly. Maybe the better course would be to deal with and 30 take his evidence, and then we can see where Mr Wadsworth 31 is up to. 32 33 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. I am sympathetic, Mr Wadsworth, 34 to your desire to get back home. The plan which Mr Elliott 35 is proposing and which I am tentatively attracted to is 36 this: if you just take that folder and take a seat in the 37 body of the hearing room, or, if there is some place to sit 38 outside, sit outside. Now, just one thing. Before you go 39 any further, Mr Wadsworth, is there any other line of 40 thought you want to raise with Mr Wadsworth? 41 42 MR ELLIOTT: There is only one other document that falls 43 into the same category. I am getting some instructions 44 from those beside me to identify that document for 45 Mr Wadsworth. 46 47 THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps when it has been identified it


1 can just be brought to Mr Wadsworth's attention. So if you 2 go either into the body of the hearing room or outside, 3 Mr Wadsworth, and ponder the problem. 4 5 <WITNESS LEAVES WITNESS BOX 6 7 THE COMMISSIONER: Is Mr Garlick next? 8 9 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. 10 11 <BRAD MALCOLM GARLICK, sworn: [4.03pm] 12 13 <EXAMINATION BY MS McNAUGHTON: 14 15 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Can you please tell the Commission 16 your full name? 17 A. Brad Malcolm Garlick. 18 19 Q. Where do you currently work? 20 A. I work for Lend Lease. 21 22 Q. Where did you work in 2013? 23 A. For about eight months at Mirvac, yes, till about 24 early September, I think it was. 25 26 Q. So, when did you start with Mirvac? 27 A. I started back in 2007. 28 29 Q. So, continuously from 2007 to the end of 2013 or 30 about September, was it, you left? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Did you leave on good terms? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. Did you go to Lend Lease with anyone else, or around 37 about the same time as anyone else from Mirvac? 38 A. Look, there'd been a couple of people who had gone 39 over at that time, yep. 40 41 Q. From Mirvac to Lend Lease? 42 A. Yes. There were a number of foremen and, yes, general 43 staff, yes. 44 45 Q. Are you able to name any of those people? 46 A. Yes. There was Adam Moore, Mark Gordon, Brad Coombs. 47 I think Peter Baldwin had started then. Steve Rushton. We

.15/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 301 B M GARLICK (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI

1 all sort of went over at the same time. 2 3 Q. Can you explain how that occurred, that so many of you 4 went over at the same time? 5 A. I guess it was an apartments' business, setting up, 6 yeah. 7 8 Q. Were you recruited by a particular person, all of you, 9 or -- 10 A. Yes, it was a guy called Nick Sakli. 11 12 Q. Did Mr Moore leave before you left? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Did him going there encourage you to go there? 16 A. No more than it discouraged me from going there. 17 18 Q. Did he, for example, speak to you about the benefits 19 of moving? 20 A. Only what I would expect that, you know, either him or 21 anyone else would be able to tell me. 22 23 Q. As at 2013, what was your role at Mirvac? 24 A. I was the State Administration Manager. 25 26 Q. If the witness could be handed volume 1 of the 27 Cornubia MFI, please. If you could kindly turn to 28 page 6-1, that is right towards the beginning, so it is 29 just after page 6. 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. There is an organisational chart there. Does that 33 reflect your understanding of the organisational structure 34 of the Orion Springfield Pad Site Stage 2 as at 2013? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. Your name appears in the second bottom box on the 38 right-hand side as Administration Manager? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. And there is a dotted line between you and Natalie 42 Croghan? 43 A. Mmm-hmm. 44 45 Q. What relationship did you have to her job as Contract 46 Administrator? 47 A. I was involved - I was reporting to a National


1 Administration Manager. My job was to roll out processes 2 that were coming into play and being updated for Mirvac, 3 and then I would roll those out to Natalie and then, yeah, 4 the project team would then, you know, work to those 5 processes for administration. 6 7 Q. Who was the person you reported to? Is that 8 a Mr Keating? 9 A. Yes, Michael Keating. 10 11 Q. Where did he work? 12 A. Melbourne, for Mirvac. 13 14 Q. It went, in terms of your hierarchy, Mr Keating, then 15 you, then Natalie, was it? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. What was your day-to-day work? 19 A. My day-to-day work, you know, I'd get recommendations 20 come through. I'd look at them to see whether, you know, 21 they're complying with the current procedures at the time; 22 assess risks in relation to the subcontractor's financial 23 position, assess had the subcontractor wanted to change 24 terms and conditions of the contract, we had a standard 25 contract, and, yes, other than that was reporting, I did 26 a lot of reporting. So, overseeing, reporting and 27 reporting up the business. 28 29 Q. To what extent, if any, did your job involve checking 30 invoices that came in from subcontractors? 31 A. If they came to me through a system there, then 32 I would be, I guess, part of a sign-off process, yep. 33 34 Q. How did the sign-off process work? Perhaps if you 35 could turn to that same volume -- 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. -- page 5, for example. 39 A. So we had our tendering -- 40 41 Q. Sorry, just before you answer, the nature of this 42 document, there are a number of similar ones with different 43 dates towards the beginning of this folder. This is 44 a Limits of Authority document for Mirvac? 45 A. Yes, that's correct. So, in my time at Mirvac, we had 46 gone from a State centric run business to a nationally run 47 business. So, we had to sort of align all our processes


1 and it was an evolving process of reiterations of this 2 document. 3 4 Q. Did the national structure start in 2012, was it? 5 A. Yes, it was about that time. 6 7 Q. This document is Version 4 and is effective from 8 25 February 2013? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Just in terms of, for example, the Pad 2 site and the 12 people tendering for that site, which bit of the document 13 would be relevant? 14 A. First would be the "Tender Shortlist Signoff", item 1. 15 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. The project team would put together a proposed tender 18 list of who they intended to use on the project. That 19 would come to myself, I'd look at it, in the position of 20 would - you know, doing that work for that subcontractor 21 affect doing work to another project, you know, are they 22 taking on too much work, are we having disputes with that 23 subcontractor, and then that would be sent for final 24 approval to the Construction Director at the time, who was 25 Adam Moore. 26 27 Q. Just working across those columns, if we may. The top 28 left is "Item", then "Category", then "National CEO 29 Development", who was that? 30 A. I can't recall his name, sorry. 31 32 Q. National Construction Director, was that Jason 33 Vieusseux - V-I-E-U-S-S-E-U-X? 34 A. Mmm-hmm. 35 36 Q. Then the National Commercial Manager? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. Who was that? 40 A. Michael Keating. 41 42 Q. And then the Regional Construction Director/Operations 43 Manager, I think you have indicated that is Adam Moore? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Then Administration Manager, that's you? 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. And Senior Project Manager/Project Manager, that's 3 Mr McAllum? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. Then under "Comment" along the first row there, it 7 says: 8 9 Contract Administrator signature also 10 required 11 12 The contract administrator was Natalie Croghan? 13 A. Yes. So she probably prepared the list. 14 15 Q. That's the original -- 16 A. Tender list, yes 17 18 Q. -- tender. That's the short list? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. In terms of approving the tender, is that the next 22 section, section number 2? 23 A. That was pre-tender. Post-tender, once the project 24 team had done their assessments and were ready to let it, 25 you know, the next style of sort of criteria was if it was 26 under $100,000, or it was over budget, it would then come 27 to myself. 28 29 Q. Relevantly, though, under $100,000, Mr McAllum 30 could -- 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. -- approve that? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. In terms of variations, where is that dealt with on 37 the form? Is that at 4.2? 38 A. Yes. Yes. 39 40 Q. Under 4.2 under Mr McAllum's column, that's less than 41 $10,000? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. Could he, as at 2013, approve individual variations 45 that were less than $10,000? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. And if they were over that -- 2 A. The system we had was automated. So it should 3 have - if a commitment was entered into the PCP program, 4 then it would have come up to myself, or further up the 5 other way chain. 6 7 Q. The last column of 4.2 says: 8 9 Subcontract Variations have a separate LoA 10 to the initial Committed Value 11 12 What does that mean? 13 A. I'm not sure. 14 15 Q. And also while you're -- 16 A. Sorry, yes, it does. What that is suggesting is for 17 the line above, you've got the initial commitment of 18 $100,000, but after that it's treated as a separate 19 commitment process which is, yes, under $10,000. 20 21 Q. So the initial commitment value, that's the same as 22 essentially the 2.1 item? 23 A. Yes. That's the manual side of it and 2 point - yes, 24 4.1 is the process side of it. 25 26 Q. Just in terms of, if I can ask you, your understanding 27 of the type of work that Mirvac does, and certainly did in 28 2013, were they in the business of constructing individual 29 homes, one-off? 30 A. There was their housing department. 31 32 Q. Yes. Were they in the business of constructing 33 one-off houses? 34 A. Not that I was aware of. 35 36 Q. If they did houses, how did they do houses? 37 A. They had estates that were Mirvac planned communities. 38 39 Q. Was that the situation during the time you were there 40 from 2007? 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. To your understanding is it still the case today? 44 A. I believe they closed up that business, that part of 45 the business. 46 47 Q. The housing estate?


1 A. Yes, or they descaled it right back. 2 3 Q. To your knowledge, back in 2013, was there any 4 industrial problems that were either foreshadowed or feared 5 at any Mirvac sites in Queensland? 6 A. No. I - yes, I could not comment on that. Industrial 7 relations wasn't part of my role, but, you know, keeping 8 the office, I didn't hear of any issues industrially. 9 10 Q. Can you please turn to page 61 of the folder you have. 11 Do you see there - I am not suggesting you were a party to 12 this email -- 13 A. Sure. 14 15 Q. -- but there is an email from Adam Moore at the top of 16 the page to Jason Vieusseux, and it says: 17 18 MA Presentation contractors.pdf. 19 20 The subject says "DO NOT DISTRIBUTE" and apparently the top 21 section is written by Mr Moore: 22 23 Lang O'Rourke are at war with the brothers, 24 CFMEU are smashing all other Projects other 25 than Mac & Anne (the disaster in Fortitude 26 Valley 14 months) 27 They are calling meetings on most projects 28 weekly 29 Kawana is unaffected 30 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Did you hear anything about this issue as at March 34 2013? 35 A. Not that I recall. 36 37 Q. In terms of what Mac & Anne is, can you assist? 38 A. Yes. I think that was a Laing O'Rourke project. 39 McArthur & Ann, it was on the corner. 40 41 Q. "McLachlan & Ann" is at the foot of that same page. 42 A. Yes, that would be it. 43 44 Q. The original email is apparently from a person at 45 Laing O'Rourke. 46 A. Correct. 47


1 Q. It says at the bottom of the page: 2 3 Project Manager - McLachlan & Ann 4 Development. 5 6 A. Yes, I understand they were having industrial issues. 7 8 Q. So, you can't shed any light on why Mr Moore 9 distributed this email together with what appears to be 10 a hardcopy printout of some sort of presentation -- 11 A. No. 12 13 Q. -- about the problem to Mr Vieusseux? 14 A. No. 15 16 Q. You weren't brought into the loop at all? 17 A. No, not that I can recall. 18 19 Q. Can I please ask you to turn to page 83. Here is an 20 email - I am not suggesting you were involved with this 21 either but you might be able to assist us - from 22 [email protected]. Who was she? 23 A. She was a site administrator. 24 25 Q. Where? Which site? 26 A. I don't recall where she was at as at that date. She 27 was sort of mobile between a few jobs. 28 29 Q. Was one of those jobs the Pad Site? 30 A. Not that I recall. I don't believe she was on the pad 31 sites. 32 33 Q. She signs off as: 34 35 Contract Admin Assistant 36 Apartments & Commercial Development. 37 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. Located in Brisbane. It's to Adam Moore and it says: 41 42 Subject: Trident Invoice - BLF Family Day 43 Donation 44 45 Hi Adam, 46 47 Which job would like to cover this cost?


1 2 Thank you 3 4 Then over the page there is a document of Trident? 5 A. Sure. That refers to Kawana. 6 7 Q. It refers to Kawana? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. What does that mean, can you explain that? 11 A. Kawana was a project that Mirvac was working on. 12 13 Q. The Kawana is the same Kawana we saw referred to by 14 Adam Moore as "unaffected in relation to the war with the 15 brothers"? 16 A. Correct. 17 18 Q. Was the Kawana project coming to an end at this time? 19 A. No. I think it was sort of mid - sort of midstream. 20 21 Q. Was the completion date of Kawana, to your knowledge, 22 at all time sensitive? 23 A. Yes, I believe they had to get in by an Easter date or 24 a - yes, there was some sort of date that they had to 25 achieve, but I couldn't tell you - I recall something about 26 Easter, but I couldn't tell you anymore than that. 27 28 Q. How senior was Louise Gunston as at March 2013? 29 A. Not senior at all. 30 31 Q. Are you able to shed any light as to why she would be 32 asking Adam Moore as to which job would like to cover 33 a cost of a BLF Family Day Donation? 34 A. I would only be speculating. 35 36 Q. Have you ever heard of such a thing occurring during 37 your time at Mirvac? 38 A. Not to the best of my recollection. 39 40 Q. You hesitated before you answered that? 41 A. Yes. I wouldn't say I could recall any specific 42 examples. 43 44 Q. Do you want to just take your time to see whether you 45 can? 46 A. So can you repeat the question? 47


1 Q. Have you ever heard of such a thing occurring during 2 your time at Mirvac; that is, asking Adam Moore or perhaps 3 someone else which job would like to cover a cost of a BLF 4 donation? 5 A. Not that I recall. 6 7 Q. Is it fair to say you are uncomfortable in answering 8 that question? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Why is that? 12 A. Well, I don't know specific details, but I may have 13 heard rumours. 14 15 Q. Right. What rumours did you hear? 16 A. That it may have - you know, I don't know specifics, 17 but that something may have - like, this may have happened. 18 19 Q. How many times? 20 A. Oh, I'm not sure. I would have -- 21 22 Q. More than one? 23 A. Not that I'm aware of. 24 25 Q. Beg your pardon? 26 A. Not that I'm aware of. 27 28 Q. Did it occur, the rumour that you heard, so far as the 29 rumour went, in Brisbane? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. Did it involve the BLF or the CFMEU? 33 A. I'm not sure which organisation it was. 34 35 Q. One of the construction Unions? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. Are you able to recall when you heard the rumour? 39 A. Not specifically, no. 40 41 Q. Well, was it around about 2013 or an earlier time? 42 A. Again, I could not remember exactly. 43 44 Q. You seem, again, quite uncomfortable answering this 45 set of questions? 46 A. Only because I'm not sure of - yeah. 47


1 Q. Can I ask you now to please turn to page 112. Again 2 I'm not suggesting you were party to this email, but it is 3 an email: 4 5 From: Stephen Kneale 6 [[email protected]] 7 8 To: Adam Moore 9 10 Subject: langs 11 12 Again it is apparently about the Laing O'Rourke dispute 13 with the CFMEU. Do you see that? 14 A. Yep. 15 16 Q. Who is Stephen Kneale? 17 A. He is a cost planner. 18 19 Q. A cost planner? 20 A. A cost planner, yes. 21 22 Q. In Brisbane? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. How senior was he in 2013? 26 A. He was one of the - like, I couldn't tell you how 27 senior he was, but he was one of the cost planners. He 28 wasn't a cost planner manager or anything, he was one of 29 the cost planners. 30 31 Q. Did he have anything to do with Kawana? 32 A. He did some cost planning on Kawana from what I can 33 recall. 34 35 Q. Can you shed any light on why he was forwarding or -- 36 A. No. 37 38 Q. -- attaching this article to Mr Adam Moore? 39 A. No. 40 41 Q. Can you kindly now turn to page 168. Do you see 42 there - again I'm not suggesting this involves you, but it 43 is an email from Marco Bedano, to David Mayne; copied to 44 Mat McAllum and Natalie Croghan. Who was Marco Bedano? 45 A. He was either a foreman or a site manager on the pad 46 sites. 47


1 Q. He was sending something to David Mayne. Who was he, 2 do you know? 3 A. I don't know who David Mayne is. 4 5 Q. It is talking about Traffic Control and it says: 6 7 Hi David, 8 Please base it on non EBA rates 9 10 Can you shed any light on that? 11 A. I'd be speculating. 12 13 Q. Could I ask you now please to turn to pages 190 and 14 also 191. It's an email from [email protected] to 15 Adam Moore. It says: 16 17 Subject: Invoice in my Basware 18 19 Hi Adam, 20 21 I've received this invoice in my Basware. 22 Is this to be paid by us? 23 24 It is set out as: 25 26 BLF Family Day Donation ... 27 28 Authorised by Adam Moore. 29 30 Including GST, $1,100, although I don't know why a donation 31 would include GST. Leaving that to one side, who was 32 Kevin Chen or who is Kevin Chen? 33 A. He was a Contracts Administrator on Kawana. 34 35 Q. Can you shed any light on why he would be asking 36 Mr Moore whether or not that should be paid by Mirvac? 37 A. No, I'm not sure. I'm assuming it was the same one 38 that you showed me before from Louise. 39 40 Q. Did matters like this ever come across your desk? 41 A. Not to my recollection. I - yeah. No. 42 43 Q. You said "Not to my recollection. I", and then you 44 finished your answer. What were you about to say? 45 A. I'm not sure. 46 47 Q. Can I just ask you again: did matters like this ever


1 come across your desk? 2 A. I don't recall. 3 4 Q. Does that mean - that's not a "no"? 5 A. No. 6 7 Q. So they could have? 8 A. They could have. 9 10 Q. When you say you don't recall, is that because you 11 don't want to answer the question under oath? 12 A. No, it's because I was there for a long time and 13 I don't recall a specific instance. 14 15 Q. Do you say you recall, perhaps, a general practice -- 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. -- of this coming across your desk? 19 A. I wouldn't say it was a general practice, but, yeah, 20 I'd heard. 21 22 Q. You had heard? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. It is one thing to hear; it is another thing for it to 26 come across your desk. 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. Did matters like this, where you were asked to pay 30 donations to Unions, did they come across your desk? 31 A. Not that I recall. 32 33 Q. If you can't recall a specific date of that occurring, 34 can you recall that it happened without recalling that it 35 happened on a particular date? 36 A. Someone might have asked me about one of these items 37 here and I wouldn't have been sure about it. 38 39 Q. You would not have been sure about it? 40 A. No. 41 42 Q. What would you have done? 43 A. I would have probably did what they have done and 44 asked Adam. 45 46 Q. Do you ever recall having a discussion with Adam Moore 47 about Mirvac covering donations to a construction Union?


1 A. No. 2 3 Q. You don't recall or you didn't have any such 4 conversation? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 7 Q. So you could have had such a conversation? 8 A. Yeah, but I'm thinking hard, I don't recall any 9 specific instances. 10 11 Q. Again you seem quite uncomfortable in answering that 12 question? 13 A. Yes, only because as I said it's - I sort of - like 14 I said before, this sort of thing may have come across my 15 desk before, but I can't remember specifics. 16 17 Q. Can I ask you, please, to go to page -- 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: Ms McNaughton, this document on 20 page 191, is a demand made by one trading corporation on 21 another trading corporation to fund a trade union family 22 day donation, that is one curious thing. Secondly it says: 23 24 This invoice is a payment claim under the 25 Building and Construction Industry Payments 26 Act 2004. 27 28 How can that be so? Is there any evidence that -- 29 30 MS McNAUGHTON: Well, we are calling Mr Moore. He might 31 be able to assist us further. 32 33 THE WITNESS: Just from my point of view, that's standard 34 clause on the bottom of most subcontractors' claims. 35 36 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. It may be, but the fact is that 37 a demand to pay the BLF Family Day Donation cannot be 38 a payment claimed under the Building and Construction 39 Industry Payments Act 2004, can it? 40 A. As I said, I'm sure that's just their standard 41 stationery. 42 43 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Can I ask you, please, to turn to 44 page 212 of the same volume. 45 A. Sorry, yes, 212. 46 47 Q. Can I just ask you, again I 'm not suggesting you were


1 part of this email, but can you assist us with explaining 2 who Grant Richardson is? 3 A. Grant was a site engineer. 4 5 Q. Site engineer? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Which site? 9 A. He was sort of between sites around that time, I 10 believe. I think he was working on the Orion Shopping 11 Centre, the main shopping centre. 12 13 Q. The main one? 14 A. Yes, the second stage that hadn't been built. 15 16 Q. Who was Paul Cunningham? 17 A. He was a Senior Project Manager, I believe, on the 18 shopping centre works. 19 20 Q. Could I ask you now to turn, please, to - I think it 21 might be the next volume - yes, volume 2, and could you 22 please go to page 425. 23 A. Variation, yes. 24 25 Q. It's an invoice of Nicoll Industries, do you see that? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. It has been "OK'd" by Marco Bedano. 29 A. That's what it appears to be, yes. 30 31 Q. Can you explain how that sign-off would have occurred? 32 A. I'd imagine - and again I'm just speculating - but 33 people would be verifying that the works have occurred 34 on-site. 35 36 Q. How would that be done? How would he verify that the 37 works had occurred? 38 A. Marco? 39 40 Q. Yes. 41 A. He would be on-site. He's a site manager. 42 43 Q. But literally can you explain to us - we haven't been 44 there -- 45 A. Sure. 46 47 Q. -- how that would occur?


1 A. So he's on-site from day-to-day. A subcontractor 2 would get him to authorise his variation works if that may 3 be - you know, if they're day works, if they're not 4 something that's measured or something that's pre-agreed, 5 yes. 6 7 Q. Can you just explain that? In terms of variations, 8 how were they approved? 9 A. Variations are approved through - we had a - like a - 10 that PCP system. So the site would enter the variation 11 into the system and then it would go through Limits of 12 Authority to approve, and the site would have done their 13 own investigations into the value of the variation, or any 14 supporting documents. 15 16 Q. So some things are pre-approved? 17 A. Yes. Yep. Say you're building an extension to a 18 deck, or something on the back or the side, you may, if 19 time permits, get a fixed quote. If you can agree it 20 before the work starts, then you give them a variation 21 before, but sometimes the time doesn't permit, you will 22 actually - you'll say, "Do it on hourly rate works, costs, 23 plus 10 per cent." 24 25 Q. Would someone literally go and have a look to see if 26 it was done? 27 A. Yes. Yes. So the people on-site. It might be the 28 Site Manager in this case. 29 30 Q. So is the document at page 425 an example of where 31 it's not pre-approved? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. Do you say that Mr Bedano would have gone to see what 35 was done? 36 A. Either that, or he would have been aware if the works 37 had been done. 38 39 Q. Right. So back on our document at page 6-1, he's off 40 at the side, he's the Site Manager/Site Engineer at the 41 left-hand side of the document? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. And he supervises Peter Baldwin, does he? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. They were all on the pad site?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. So other than pre-approval, when it's not 4 pre-approved, are they the only two ways that variations 5 are done? 6 A. Sorry, can you repeat that? 7 8 Q. There's pre-approval? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Then there's this type of situation. Any other way 12 that variations are done? 13 A. No, that's - off the top of my head, no. 14 15 Q. So if things are pre-approved -- 16 A. Yep. 17 18 Q. -- how are they finally invoiced and paid so far as 19 Mirvac is concerned? 20 A. Their contract sum would be adjusted. So if they had 21 a $1 million contract, with $100,000 worth of variations, 22 the adjusted contract sum would be $1.1 million, and then 23 they would just progress claim the percentage they are 24 complete. 25 26 Q. Would Ms Croghan or Mr McAllum, if it's within 27 Mr McAllum's limit -- 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. -- would he need to sight, if it was all being done 31 properly, some sort of proof of the work or some sort of 32 detail of the work? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. Would you expect Natalie Croghan to see some sort of 36 proof of the work, the detail of the work? 37 A. I don't think she had any Limits of Authority to sign 38 off any -- 39 40 Q. So what did she actually do? 41 A. She did a lot of paperwork. She did a lot of 42 reporting. Every month there was a report due. She would 43 do the entry of those invoices and variations into the 44 system. 45 46 Q. If there wasn't the required paperwork, do you 47 understand that she would have to seek out that paperwork?


1 A. Yes, or she would ask, you know, Marco or Mat for 2 further clarification. 3 4 Q. Can I just finally ask you to go, please, to page 630, 5 and just to confirm - I think we have heard this 6 already - that this particular page did not relate to the 7 pad site -- 8 A. Sorry, did you say 630? 9 10 Q. Yes. It is up on the screen. 11 A. Oh, yes. Sorry, yes. 12 13 Q. This particular item did not relate to the pad site, 14 is that your understanding? 15 A. BCF was part of the fit-out works for the pad sites. 16 17 Q. So it was the pad site? 18 A. Yes. Yes. 19 20 Q. Marco Bedano, Bryn Fulton, Peter Baldwin, 21 Andy Letchford and Dave Soletti were all the recipients of 22 the email? 23 A. It would appear so, yes. 24 25 Q. Do you know all of those people? 26 A. I don't know who Bryn Fulton is and I don't know who 27 Andy Letchford is. Dave Soletti is a familiar name, and 28 that's about it. 29 30 Q. Did you know Dan Greenland? 31 A. I know of him, yes. 32 33 Q. Have any of his invoices ever crossed your desk? 34 A. Not that I can recall. 35 36 Q. Have you been following the evidence this week to the 37 Commission? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. You have heard, no doubt, that some of the invoices 41 have been padded to cover work done on a house at Cornubia? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. Did you know anything about that? 45 A. Absolutely not. 46 47 MS McNAUGHTON: They're my questions.


1 2 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 3 4 Q. Thank you for your evidence, Mr Garlick. It may be 5 that some of the people who are represented at these 6 hearings will want to ask you some further questions. If 7 so, that will happen on Friday. Are you free then? 8 A. Yes. If they can let me know before then so -- 9 10 Q. They are supposed to, as it were, make their 11 applications tomorrow and if you are required, arrangements 12 will be made with you on Thursday to come on Friday, but 13 you can leave the witness box now. 14 A. Thank you. 15 16 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 17 18 THE COMMISSIONER: I think what we will do now is take an 19 adjournment for five minutes so that those who are 20 recording the evidence can rest briefly. The hearing will 21 resume in five minutes. 22 23 SHORT ADJOURNMENT 24 25 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Elliott? 26 27 MR ELLIOTT: Commissioner, Mr Wadsworth and I have had 28 a brief chat. As I understand it, he is now feeling 29 comfortable about explaining the notations in volume 6 of 30 the bundle at pages 1921 and 1922. 31 32 THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. 33 34 <GLEN ARTHUR WADSWORTH, on former oath: [4.43pm] 35 36 <EXAMINATION BY MR ELLIOTT, continuing: 37 38 MR ELLIOTT: Q. Mr Wadsworth, could you please explain 39 the notations that you have made on those pages? 40 A. Okay. So we're looking at 1921, and on that scribble 41 note you've got "40k paint", and then in small writing it 42 says "added on", then the next one is "Hog's Breath 37k", 43 that's deleted, which is a deletion, so that would mean - 44 then it adds up to 77k which is - goes towards all of those 45 varies that you were asking about. 46 47 Q. Yes. If we can just break that down.


1 A. Mmm-hmm. 2 3 Q. The "paint 40k" added on, are you saying that $40,000 4 was added on to the contract price by way of variation? 5 A. No. Well, I can't see where the 40k has been added on 6 in the vary. 7 8 Q. No. 9 A. But it may have been added on at the start but - by my 10 writing, but I can't actually remember the specifics, but 11 that's what I would believe it to be. 12 13 Q. Could it have been added on during the period when you 14 and Mr McAllum were talking about the price you would quote 15 for the Orion PAD 2 project? 16 A. I'd suggest so. 17 18 Q. Yes. So the quote had been inflated by $40,000? 19 A. Well, that's what - that's what my notes would 20 indicate, so I'm guessing it must have been. 21 22 Q. Yes. In addition to that, you were required to do 23 less work at the Orion Pads 2 project in relation to 24 Hog's Breath? 25 A. Yes, that was included, but I think what happened was 26 they did their own paint, like, you know, what if tenants 27 come in and do their own stuff, whatever it was, so there 28 was a 37k deletion there. 29 30 Q. And the sum of the two of those, the padding in the 31 quote of $40,000, plus the deletion, added up to $77,000? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. And although there was discussed with Mr McAllum the 35 fact that there was a $37,000 reduction in the value of the 36 Orion PAD 2 contract work, there was no negative variation 37 to the contract price? 38 A. No. 39 40 Q. So you, in effect, had the benefit of $77,000? 41 A. Well, no, that squared up - squared it up. 42 43 Q. Yes. 44 A. I didn't have the benefit of it 'cause I paid for it. 45 46 Q. I understand. But you had already built $40,000 into 47 the Orion PAD 2 contract price; is that right?


1 A. It looks that way, yes. 2 3 Q. And then during the course of the Orion PAD 2 contract 4 works, there was a change to the scope of that works that 5 reduced the amount that you should have been paid, but in 6 fact there was no reduction in the contract price? 7 A. That would be right. 8 9 Q. And the sum of those two amounts, broadly speaking, 10 although not to the cent, reflect the amount of money that 11 you paid to various contractors who performed work on the 12 Cornubia site? 13 A. That's it. 14 15 Q. All right. This process that you have just described, 16 I take it, was something that was discussed with 17 Mr McAllum? 18 A. Yes. Well, he's the only one that could approve such 19 things. 20 21 Q. What do you say to this: that Mr McAllum may have 22 told you that the works for Cornubia were being invoiced in 23 this way because you were, in effect, going to be or were 24 the contractor on the Orion PAD 2 project so that the costs 25 in respect of these invoiced amounts could be passed on to 26 Mirvac? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. What do you say to this: that you were happy to do 30 that because you wanted to keep both Mr McAllum and 31 Mr Hanna happy? 32 A. No, no. I never had any discussion about any of this 33 with Dave Hanna. I don't know the reasons why Mirvac went 34 out of their way to do this stuff. But certainly as far 35 as - I had no discussions whatsoever with Dave Hanna, none. 36 37 Q. I'm not suggesting that you had a discussion with -- 38 A. But he didn't even know. He didn't know this. 39 40 Q. Well, you were prepared to do it this way because you 41 didn't want to ruffle feathers with Mr Hanna, what do you 42 say to that? 43 A. I disagree highly. 44 45 Q. You were doing it, were you, to please Mr McAllum? 46 A. And Mirvac. 47


1 Q. And you say, do you, that you weren't motivated or 2 incentivised to behave in the way you did because of some 3 concern you held about what might happen with the BLF or 4 Mr Hanna if you refused? 5 A. Not at all. 6 7 Q. Thank you, Mr Wadsworth. 8 9 MR ELLIOTT: Mr Commissioner, that's the evidence. 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Wadsworth, some of the people who 12 are concerned in these hearings may want to ask you some 13 more questions on Friday. They have to announce that 14 intention tomorrow and if any of them do, and their 15 applications are successful, then it will be necessary for 16 you to come back on Friday. Therefore, you will be told 17 all of this on Thursday, if it is necessary, but it may be 18 that you do not have to come back. 19 A. Sweet. I think I've heard - you should get 20 a recording for that. 21 22 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. You can leave the witness box 23 now. Thank you, Mr Wadsworth. Tomorrow, what time shall 24 we begin? We have Ms Croghan, if that is how you pronounce 25 her name. 26 27 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, and then Mr McAllum. I understand 28 there might be an application in relation to Mr McAllum, 29 but there will be further discussion. 30 31 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, very well. Do we begin at 9.30 or 32 do we begin earlier? 33 34 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, 9.30. 35 36 THE COMMISSIONER: You can step down, Mr Wadsworth. 37 38 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 39 40 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 41 42 MS McNAUGHTON: We could aim to start at 9am if that's 43 convenient? 44 45 THE COMMISSIONER: If those who are responsible for 46 recording the evidence can start at 9am? 47


1 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, very well. The hearing will 2 resume at 9am tomorrow. 3 4 AT 4.51PM THE COMMISSION WAS ADJOURNED TO WEDNESDAY, 5 16 SEPTEMBER 2015, AT 9AM 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47


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