OralHistoryTranscript:JohnandBenRupert18April,2016

Anita Watson: Okay, this is AnitaWatson with the Shared HistoryDepartment at the University ofNevada, Reno. I’m here in Carson Citywith John and Ben Rupert, and we’regoing to record some informationabout Fancy Dancing. Ben, do I haveyour permission to make thisrecording?BenRupert:Yes,youdo.AW:John,doIhaveyourpermissiontomakethisrecording?JohnRupert:Yes,youdo.Okay.ItisApril18,atabout4o’clockinthe afternoon, and we’ll get started.Ben, I’ll ask you a little bit ofinformationaboutyourbackground.BR:Okay.What was your place of birth? Youdon’t have to give me the date if youdon’twantto.BR:Oh,that’salright.That’snotlikeladies,huh.(Laughter)BR:I’mactuallykindofproudthatI’manover-fifty-year-oldfancydancer,soI have no problem giving mybirthdate. I was born right here inCarson City, Nevada, and I was bornJune 13, 1965. And I was fifthgeneration born right here in thisarea.Okay,that’scool.

BR: That’s as far back as we can goback in our generations. See, we’dknowitwasalotmore(laughter).Okay, tell me a little bit about yourfamily.BR:Thefamily?How about if we go a little bit aboutyourextended familyandthenyoutellmeaboutyournuclearfamily?BR:Okay, the family is,we’vebeen inthis area forever. My great-grandfather and his father were allright in this area here. My great-grandfather, Henry Moses Rupert, isthe first person to take on the lastname of “Rupert.” And it’s a Germanlastname.ButthereasonwehavethatGerman last name is that whensettlers came into this area here, andthings started to evolve theway theydid, you just kind of have a, thetraditional names that they calledpeople because it wasn’t…And sothat’s why you see a lot of biblical-type names. And so you see “John”being used as a last name a lot oftimes, and there was a rancher thatwas in this area here, and his lastnamewasRupert.Andhewasa localrancher, and my great-grandfatherHenry Moses was working for him.Andhesaiditwouldbeanhonorifwetook on that last name so that’s howweendedupgettingtheRupertnameinto our family. The reason he had“HenryMoses”ishewastrulythelastshamanoftheWashoepeople.HisbigspiritualareawastheCaveRockarea.And even for theWashoe people, it’s

sosacred,thatevenveryfewWashoeswereallowedtogotoCaveRock,andbe able to practice their shamanism.My great-grandfather was one ofthoseindividualsthatwereallowedtogo to CaveRock and be able to drawon his spiritual powers. And it waswitnessed,whenhewasaveryyoungchild,thattherewasaflashfloodthatwascomingdownthehill.Asthefloodwascomingdown,andasitstartedtoapproach my great-grandfatherHenry,thewaterparted.Hewalkedupandheputhishandsup,andthewaterpartedaroundhim, just like theysawintheBible,andsohegotthatbiblicalnameof“HenryMoses.”Realizingthatheprobablywasn’tgoingtobeabletogo through life being called HenryMoses, having that biblical last name,and that’swhy,whenhewas seekingoutanothernametocallhislastname,that’swhywetookonthelastnameofRupert. And so he became HenryMosesRupert.So, that goes back to your great-grandfather?BR: My great-grandfather. His namewasHenryMosesRupert.Andhewasa truly, a very remarkable person. Iremember as a child, several timescoming home, and I would see theNumber One Car, which is theGovernorofNevada,wouldbeparkedout in frontofmygreat-grandfather’shouse, along with different senatorsand congressmen, and differentpeople of political statute that wouldcomebyandseemygreat-grandfatherbecause they wanted to get hisperspectiveof life,becauseheofferedsomething that was completelydifferent.Ratherthanlookingatitinapolitical way, he looked at it as a

spiritual way. And it was veryintriguing to a lot of different peopleandtheyrespectedhiswaysof living,they respected his spirituality, andthey wanted to help incorporate, orsomehow use that into some of theirpolicies and decision-making. And sothat was quite the experience ofgrowing up and seeing all thesedifferent political figures that werecoming down to see my great-grandfather.Wherewasthehouse?The house was over in the CarsonIndian Colony, and my great-grandfather, because of his healingpowers that he had, people wouldcometohimandhisbiggestthingwas,is that he, as long as you believed inwhat he did, he didn’t care whatnationality you were. And that’s whyhe would have people of differentraces that would come in, havingdifferent properties, and they wouldgive it to my great-grandfather inpayment for helping them out withdifferent types of healing out there.Mygreat-grandfatherneverasked foranymoney,butifitwasagiftthatwasgiven to him, hewould take it. And Iwas told that oneof the areas, itwasrightwhereHeavenlyValleyis,ontheCalifornia side, where they actuallyhave the lodge at—that’s one of theareas. And it was told to us that inorder for our family to survivethrough the Great Depression, thatthat land was sold so that we wereable to provide money. And anotherthing that my great-grandfather didbesides the healing is he had acommunity farm, and he grew allkindsofvegetablesandfruits,andthiswasontheCarsonIndianColony,and

it was a community one, so anyonecould come down and, during theDepression times, be able to getvarious types of fruit and vegetables.He was very good at growing things,andsotothisday,ifyougoovertomygreat-grandfather’s house, where it’sstanding,Ihavea—oneofmycousinslivesinthere—andyoucanseeallthepinenuttrees, thebigJeffreypine,allthese different cedar trees that arejust growing all the way around itbecause he was so good at growingthesedifferenttypesofvegetablesanddeciduoustrees.Andnow,youcantellevery family member of the Ruperts,becausewhathedidwhilehewasstillalive is he took, and just from asapling,heraisedtheJeffreypine,andhe planted those around the Ruperthomes. So if you go to the CarsonIndianColony,andyouseeaclusterofJeffreypinesgrowingaroundahouse,chances are very high that that’s aRupert family relative. And it’sbecause he went over there, andplantedthoseindividualtreesthere.

You go over to where mygrandmother grew up at, where wespenta lotoftimegrowingup,wheremy brother has the auto body shop,and alsomyother brother is runningthegemologistshopthat’sthere,you’llsee several of the Jeffrey pines thatwere. And itwas told to us that eachone represented the three grandsons,andtheironeson.Andsoyouhadfourtrees, right out in front there. One ofthe trees died, andmybrother Tobinmade it into—he had a carver thatcamein,andhemadeitintoaspiritualtree,whichrepresentshisspirituality.And that tree was apparentlysupposedtobeme,itrepresentedme,so I don’t know if that means(laughter)thatI’mgettingold,orthat

I’m living on borrowed time, youknow I’mnot sure,but itwaskindofneat that instead of just having thetree knocked down after it died, andI’mprettysurethereasonthatitdiedis because they came in and put upcurbs in there,andthenyouhavethepavement area that’s in there, so thesurfaceareathatwasabletocollectalot of moisture probably just wasn’tthere.Sothetreeendedupdying,butit’skindofareallyneatstoryhowhetook his spirituality and identifiedwhohe is as aperson, andyou couldsee it on that tree, and so if you goover and see his gem shop, you canwalk right out of there and see hisspiritualtree.Cool, I’ll have to do that. Okay. Whatabout, that goes back to your great-grandfather—BR:Yes.Whataboutyourmomanddad?BR:Oh,mymomanddad,okay.SomymomanddadmetattheUniversityofNevada Reno. And my grandmother,mydad’sfatherandmother,mydad’sfatherwas fullWashoe, andmydad’smother was Duck Valley Paiute. ShewasactuallyNorthernPaiute,andherfamily settled in on the Duck ValleyIndian Reservation, which wassupposed to be all Shoshone, butbecausetherewerenumerousPaiutesthat were working in the area, thePaiutes ended up settling into acertain area of the reservation, andover time, theyblendedtogether,andso now you have Washoe-I mean,excuse me-you have both the PaiuteandShoshonethere.Sonowit’scalledthe Duck Valley Paiute Shoshone

Tribe.Soshewasfromthere,shewastaken from the reservation there andbrought down to the Stewart IndianSchool.Mygrandfathergrewupinthisareaoverhere,buthewasalsosenttothe Stewart Indian School. That’swhere my grandparents met. And atthe Stewart Indian School, my great-grandfather, Henry Moses Rupert,who we just talked about, he was inthe very first graduating class of theStewartIndianSchool.Andsoit’skindofneatthehistorythatwehavetothe-So youhave thepicture of him in thatfirstgraduatingclass?BR:Yeah,wellI’mnotsureifwehavean actual picture of him in the firstgraduating class, but we have some,there isapictureofhimthat isat theUniversity of Nevada Reno,historical…Society?BR: Archives? It’s in the archivesthat’supthere.SpecialCollections,probably.BR: Yes, Special Collections, that’swhere it’s at, and it um, shows himandGovernorBoyle,Ithinkitis,that’sin the picture with him also, alongwith a couple other members of theWashoe Tribe. So that’s where mygrandparentsmetthere.Theyhadoneson, and his namewas Leroy Rupert,who’smyfather,andhewent-wellhegraduatedfromCarsonHigh,hedidn’tactually go to Stewart Indian School.He graduated from Carson High, andthen hewent off to the University ofNevadaReno.

MymothercamefromEly.Andher family all settled in the Ely area,and they met at the University ofNevada Reno, and that’s when theygotmarried,shortlyafterbothofthemgraduated from the University ofNevadaReno.Ibelievemymomwenton to get her Master’s degree there,andthenmyfather,whocamebacktoCarson City, he took over the familybusiness,Rupert’sAutoBody.

That family business has beenaround ever since my grandfather—my grandfather was the one thatstartedtheRupert’sAutoBody,andhestarted the business because helearned the trade at Stewart Indianschool of auto body and mechanics,andhetookthattradethathelearnedthere, and created his own business.Andso,it’sathirdgenerationbusinessnow, my dad, excuse me, mygrandfatherstartedthebusiness,thenmy dad took over the business, andthenmybrother,Tobin,tookoverthebusiness after that, and now he’s agemologist, andmybrotherTed,whoisfouryearsyoungerthanmybrotherTobin, is now running the auto bodybusiness. And so it’s kind of, I meanit’s a fascinating story, to see howlearning that trade at Stewart IndianSchooldevelopedintoafamily-ownedbusiness that’s been around forgenerations. And they have over tenpeople thatwork for themover thereat all times, so you can imagine theamount of payroll that they have torunthrough,andyoulookoverthere,and they’ve been voted the numberone auto body place here in CarsonCity for,maybethe last tenyears inarow. So they’re just doing a fantasticjoboverthere. Butgettingbacktomyparents,theymet at the University of Nevada

Reno.Mymomwasanon-native,andat that time, you didn’t haveinterracialmarriages.Itreallywasnotathingthatwas—now,it’ssocommonoutthere,it’salmost,everyfamilythatyou see has some sort of interracialmarriagethat’sinvolved.Atthattime,youdidn’tseethat.SoI’mhalfIndian,thatmakesmeaquarterWashoeandaquarterPaiute,fromtheDuckValleyPaiute ShoshoneReservation.And so,I didn’t really grow up as a kidunderstandingalotofmymom’ssideof the family, because,when Iwas—Ithinkwhen Iwas in second grade orfirst grade,my parents got a divorce.AndmymomwentbacktoEly,andwewere raised here in the Carson Cityarea, primarily raised by ourgrandparents. And so, when, later oninlife,afterIgraduatedfromcollege,Iwent to Oregon State University, wereconnectedwithourmother.Andourmother has been taking us aroundand—we get to do a family trip herecomingupthissummer—shetakesusaroundandeveryotheryear,wegotoa new area that her family settled in,to learn the other side of my familyhistory. Because I grew upunderstandingmy father’s sideof thefamily, and that’s where we lived at,but we didn’t grow up knowing mymother’ssideofthefamily.Sonowwehavetheopportunitytolearnthesideofmymother.Which isneat,becausewe’vebeengoingto—So, they’ve been settled in White PineCounty?BR: Yeah, they ended up settling inWhite Pine County, they have a verywell-known,establishedbusinessoverthere, it’s a family-owned businesscalled Bath Lumber Company, and

thentheyalsohavethesportinggoodsstore which is downtown, it’s calledSportsWorld,andsothey’rejust,overtheyears,thefamilyhasgrowntothepointwhere everyone has diversifiedintodifferent things.Youhavepeoplethat are architects, you haveaccountants,youhavepeoplethatarerunning the, or family members Ishould say, that are running thelumber yard, the Bath LumberCompany, there’s a drug storedowntown, theytry tokeep it theoldtraditionalway, it’scalled,and it’s, soyoustillhavethefountainsodasthere,and you get the milkshakes that arefountain type, in there, so it’s kind ofreally neat to see. They’ve tried tokeep it some of the old traditionalwaysthere.

So, over just in the last fewyears, we’ve been not only learningabout our family in the Ely area, butourmomhastakenusto,overintotheDenver area, and up into Wyoming;two years ago we went to NorthCarolina,wherethefamily,thesideofthe family, where the first of thefamilysettledover there in theNorthCarolinaarea,andalsoSouthCarolina,and this year, we’re going over toSouthDakotaarea.Andsowe’regoingto be—in August—we’re flying overtheretolearnourfamilyhistoryintheSouthDakotaarea.Whoallwillgo?BR: Itwill be all of our family, somyson,mywife,myself,mytwobrothers,and all their families, so any familymember that’s part of my two otherbrothers andmyselfwill be going. Soshe takes care of all of us andwe flyover and learn all about our familyhistory,whichisreallyneat.

That’sreallyspecial.BR:Yeah.That’s cool. Okay, what about, excuseme,yournuclearfamily?BR:Oh,Yourwife,Sherry—BR:Oh,yes,yes,sothenuclearfamilyis, I have, we have three children. Soit’smyselfandmywifeSherry.Sherryis the Executive Director of theNevada Indian Commission. She alsositsonacouplenationalboards.She’spart of the Chamber of CommerceAdvisory Board, she is also thePresident of the Alaska NativeAmericanIndianTourismAssociation,Imight havemixed that up a bit, it’scalled“IANTA,”buttheyareinchargeof promoting tourism for the entirecountry, and so they promoteanywhere from Florida all the wayover here to California and OregonandWashington,includingAlaskaandHawaii. They are promoting tourismfor international tourists to come in,notonlyinternationaltouristsbutalsotouristswithin: anyone thatwants togotoIndiancountry.AndasfarastheState goes here, if there’s any issuesthatdealwiththetribes,anditgoestothe Governor’s office down to thetribes, she is that liaison that’s inbetweentheretoworkwiththetribesand vise versa; if the tribes want toworkwith theGovernor’s office, theygo through Sherry as their liaison. Soshehasavery,veryimportantjob.

She’s also in the process ofrestoring the Stewart Indian Schoolcoming up, not only restoring the

entireschoolbutmuseum,andsoover100 years worth of art has beencollected and it’s archived right now,it’sjustinstorage,andtheideaistobeable to showcase all that artwork inthe new museum. The building’salreadyinplace,thingsarerolling,it’sjust a matter of time now until themuseumisupandgoing.

Oneof thebig things theyalsodotooistheyresurrectedtheStewartPowwow, and so it’s a very largepowwowthathappenseveryyear,it’sa fundraiser to help restore StewartIndian School and the museum, andit’salwaysFather’sdayweekend,andso Iencourageeverybody tocomeondown and see all the dancing downthere, and the public’s welcome. Andso,yeah,it’sagreattime.

And so getting to our threechildren—our oldest son, he spent 8yearsinthenavy,andwhenhegotoutofthenavy,hegothiredonattheAirNationalGuardasafirefighter.Andwhatishisname?BR:HisnameisRobertVega.Andthenmy next son is Justin. His name isJustinLight.He’s intheMarineCorps,andheisstationedinCampLejeune,Ithink they call it, which is in SouthDakota.No,oneoftheCarolinas.BR:Oh,excuseme.SouthCarolina.I’msorry. I meant to say. Right there byMyrtle Beach, just above it. I actuallythink it’s in North Carolina. SouthCarolinaisMyrtleBeach,andthenyoudriveupintoNorthCarolina.JOHN RUPERT: Yeah, it’s like rightwheretheborderis,rightaboveit.

BR: Yeah. So he lives in NorthCarolina, and he’s married, and nochildrenyet.OurothersonRobert,hehas two children, so we have twograndchildren, and our one son thatwehavebothtogetherisJohn.

AndJohnisavery,veryspecialson of ours, he’s been on the coverpage of the Nevada Magazine, if youget off at the airport and you see avideothere,hetalksaboutthecultureof the Washoe people, and how theWashoe people lived. He’s helpedmedesign our curations of the museum,you go up to the Donner MemorialState Park, and you’ll see bows andarrows and quivers and shelters thatwe’ve designed together, that areshowcased over at that museum, wealso have the same thing over at theCalifornia Trail Museum, which is inElko.Wehavedifferentmuseumsthatcontact us throughout the WesternUnitedStates,andwemakebowsandarrowsandquivers,andsendthemoffto themtoalsodisplay in thevariousmuseums.

Also, we do numerous classeswhere we do bow shooting with ourarrowsandbowsthatwemake;wedocultural presentations where weshowcase all the different traditionalarts of the Great Basin Indians, sowe’ll talk about the different types ofbaskets, and how food was gatheredandhunted;we’lltalkabouthow—thedifferent types of survival techniquesthat are used out there, for theGreatBasin Tribes, and our son, John, hastravelledallover,dancingwithus.

We’ve been to Alaska, we’vebeen to Hawaii, we’ve been to China.Last year we went to numerousdifferent cities, and got to climb theGreatWallofChinaoverthere,aspart

of a—we would do a culturalpresentation, then they would showus their culture. Andwewere guestsof the country, and they just—Imean—it was just an absolutelyunbelievable trip over there. I mean,we even got to eat puffer fish, and ifanybodyknows aboutpuffer fish andthedangerofthat—Iwasgoing to say, I thinkyouhave tocookitcarefully.BR: Well, it’s the process of whenyou’re gutting it out. If the knife justgetsanywherenearthegallbladder—JR: I think it is, I think they said thegallbladder—BR: If anything pierces it, it willreleaseenoughtoxinstokillaperson.They said on average, I think, thatfourteen,fifteenpeopledieeveryyeareating puffer fish. It’s a delicacy overthere. We went to an individual’sprivaterestaurant,andhadpufferfish,andhewastellingusthatifyouwereto come in and buy puffer fish, therewas only I think, three or fourrestaurants in the entire China, withallthemillionsandmillionsofpeople,therewereonly four restaurants thatactuallyservepufferfish,thatitwouldcostaboutathousandU.S.dollars,andthatwasjustoneofthethingsthatwehadwhenwewerethere.

Soitwasquitefascinatingtobeable to go over there and share aculture. And that’s what we do. Wespend all of our time: my son Johntravelsallthetimewithme,andwedocultural presentations at schools, atdifferent museums, you name it.Whenever we are called upon to do

something,wewilltry—aslongaswecanfititintoourschedule,wedoit.

We don’t ask for money. Ifwe’re given money, well, sure, we’lltake it, butwe just love doing it, youknow, coming fromwithin our heart.That’s really what it’s all about. Andit’s away forme to teach—forme togo out and learn from one of ourmasterartiststobeabletoteachittomy son, and I’m hoping that he’ll beabletopassitdownto,tohischildren.And sowe can continue on that. Andyou’ve walked in our house here,you’veseenallthetraditionalartswehave,ourhouseislikeamuseum.That’s right. Well, what we, um,basically,we’vegottheinformationsoIdon’t have to go over the backgroundfor John because I know everythingaboutJohnnow.BR:(Laughs),yeah,Ilikethat.SowhatIwouldliketoaskyou,um,oneofthequestionsthatIhadwas—hmm,I’mgoing to skip this rightnow—yourinterest in Native American Culture—becauseI thinkIseewhere it’scomingfrom.BR:Yes—Yourfamily—BR:We’vedoneapretty—Thatsortofstuff—BR: Talked about that prettyextensively.But,theFancyDancing.BR:Oh,yes.

So, my first question is, were youalwaysinterestedinFancyDancing?BR: Fancy Dancing. So I’m fifty yearsold, going to be coming on fifty-onehere. I didn’t get into Fancy Dancinguntil Iwas twentyyearsold. Iwas incollegeatthetime,andwhatendeduphappening is that I started havingdreams,andIstarteddreamingaboutFancyDancing.Andthen,that’swhenIrealizedthatoneofmycallings in lifewas to become a Fancy Dancer. And,so then shortly thereafter I startedhaving thedreams, I starteddrawing,becauseIwouldn’tconsidermyselfbyany means a great artist at all, but Icandoartwork.AndsowhatIstarteddoing is I started drawing out myregalia.

And then everything—becauseI think personally if you have a goodheart,andeverythingissetjustwhereyou’re in balancewith life, things arenaturallygoingtobecomeavailabletoyou—I started meeting people thatmade the broaches. I had people tohelp me out to make the bustles forthe dancing, to do all the beadwork,andwithinayearor twoafterhavingmy dreams of becoming a FancyDancer, next thing you know, I’m outfancydancing.

And it’s kind of scary becausemost of our children nowadays thatare to become Fancy Dancers startwhen they can first walk. That’s theway it was for our son. He was—shortly after he was walking, he wasouttherefancydancing,sohe’sgrownup learning how to fancy dance,whereasmyself, Iwas inmytwentieswhenIfirstgotintofancydancing,soit was—I was definitely the firstgeneration dancer, and I was very,

very content on just fancy dancing.That’sallIdid.Iwassingleatthetime,and I would travel all over, and anybig powwow that was out there, Iwould travel to the powwow anddanceoverthere,andthatwayIcouldstart to learn—if you want to say,mastering the art of dancing. And soyoudevelopyourownstyle,andso[Iwas]very,veryhappydoingthat.Andthen,when our son John came along,and he started Fancy Dancing, yeah,shortlyafter—hewasmaybeonlyfouror five years old—not only did hewant to FancyDance, he alsowantedto start learning how to maketraditionalarts.

Andwetalkedabouthowrighthereinfrontofourhousewehaveanarchery thing set up where he canshoot his bows, because he loves toshoot archery. And so he wanted tolearn how to make arrows. And healso wanted to learn how to makedrums,andhewantedtolearnhowtomakebows,andso,myselfasafather,whatIwoulddo,isIwouldgooutandfind a master artist that was reallygood at making arrows, and I wouldlearn how to make that, and then Iwould pass it on to John. Same thingwhenitcametobows.Nobodyinthisarea—there are very few people, Ishould say—that make, there’s thisone gentleman out at Pyramid Lake,anotherWashoe Tribal member that,that uh, alsomakes bows, but there’sveryfewpeoplethatmaketraditionalbowsoutthere.Sowhenitcametotheartoflearninghowtomakebows,wehad to go to the state of Oregon, andlearn fromanon-nativehow tomakebowsbecauseitwasjustkindofalostart, a lot like our tule ducks that wehaveoutthere.

Weseeit’sthestateartifactforthestateofNevada,butthatwasalostart. It was lost, and what I mean by“lostart”isourpeopledidn’tknowwewere making them until they werediscovered in a cave. Once theywerediscovered in the Lovelock Cave, andalso found some of the replicas, orrelics,artifacts,Ishouldsay,inHiddenCave, outside Grimes Point area, itstarted to open up, there are peoplemaking tule ducks, they're makingdifferent things with the tule in thisarea here, that was essentially a lostart.Sotherewasagentleman,helivesoutatPyramidLake,hisnameisMikeWilliams, very famous artist—heactually has a tule duck that’s in theSmithsonian.Heisamasterartist,andsowewenttohim,andlearnedhowtomakethetuleduck.

WewenttoBurtonPete,who’sin—who lives in Reno-Sparks IndianColony. He was very good at makingarrows, and he was very good atmaking drums. And he taught us thetraditional way of making thesedrums.WewentuptoOregontolearnhowtomakebows.Andwestartedoffmaking longer bows, and then westarted shortening up our bows, andwere more of a traditional style ofwhat was around here, making themout of juniper, and different types ofwood that you saw in this area, here,rather than usingOsagewood,whichwefirst learnedhowtomakeoff,andalso,hickory-typewood.

So we’re starting to convertover to the things that were used inthis area around here. Now we’restartingtoworkwiththeJuniper,andlearning the traditional way thatstavesweretakenoutofthetree,thatdidn’tkillthetree,andtherearesometrees that are—and we learned this

through the University of Berkeley,andsomeof their studies—out in theHawthorne area, they have some ofthesetreesthathavenumerousstavesthatweretakenoutofthetree,butthetreeisstillstanding.Thisisaspiritualtree. This is something that waspassed on from family to family thatsays,“thisisourfamilytreetobeableto make bows from.” So, generationafter generation would go up to thesame tree and get staves ofwood offthere.Dotheyknowhowfarbackitdates?BR: Well yeah, it’s—they did studieson it, but just offhand, I can’tremember what it was, but it was,several, you know it was up to wellover a hundred, a couple hundredyears old in some of the areas thatyou’dhave,becauseyou’dhaveastavetakenoutthisandmaybeanothertenyears later you’d have another onetaken out, and so, within, you know,withinanothercouplehundredyears,these staves were taken out overthere.

So getting back to FancyDancing,Iwasverycontentatbeingafancydancer,butmysonJohnwantedto learn more. So as a father, I wentout and learned these differenttraditionalartstobeabletoteachhim,and that’s how it evolved from just,notonlybeingadancer,butalsobeingan artist and making differenttraditionalartsoutthere.

And John, he took it one stepfurther and every traditional art thathelearned;hetieditintoasciencefairproject. And so, he would taketraditional arrows and compare thevelocityofthosearrowswithmodern-day arrows. And to see the feet per

second, measure the impact powerthatyou’regettingoutof it.And thenwe did another one too where wemeasured the buoyancy of the tuleducks out there, to see how they’refloating. Also did one too of usingdifferent types of bowwoods to findoutwhatthebestbowwoodistouseto give you the most impact powerwhenyou’repullingbackthebow.

And then he went to hisbrother’s, oh, excuse me, his uncle’sgem shop, and learned how to—healways toldhismomhewas going tomake her, or buy her a diamondring—well, by the time he was nineyears old, or ten years old, he’d gonetomybrother’splace, learnedhowtomake, cut actual gemstones, andcreatedaringforherthatwas,Ithinkitwas citron that heused tomake it,and itwas justbeautifullycut,andhegave that to her, because he alwayspromised her that he was going togiveheraring.

Well, he took it one stepfurther and he measured thebrilliance, so he compared thedifferent cuts that he was doing to agarnet, a citron, to these differenttypesofgemstonesthatyoufindherein Nevada, and compared it to adiamond,andmeasuredthebrillianceofthosegemstonesthathewasdoing.So that’s kind ofwhat’s been so neatabout it, is that IwascontentbeingaFancy Dancer, and I probably wouldhave never moved beyond being aFancyDancer,butbecauseofmyson’sinterest and me wanting to be thefather to teach him, I moved intodoingtraditionalarts.He’saverygoodartistas farasdrawinggoes,and I’vedoneartworkmyself,andso it’sbeenreally neat to make differenttraditional arts and to see me at the

beginning, because when he wasyoung, Iwouldput the artworkon it,and now we’re seeing vise-versawhere Icoulddo theartwork, Imeanthe actual traditional art, and thenJohncomesinandputsintheartworkonit.So one other question that really, um,well there are a couple of otherquestions. Who were your mentorswhenyoustartedtheFancyDancing?BR: The mentors, I would say,nowadays it’s a little bit differentbecause when John dances, he lookson YouTube and the Internet, and heseesdancersthatareworldchampionfancy dancers. He watches them, hestudies them, and that’s how, theybecome his mentors with theirdancing,alongwithdancingwithme.

WhenIgotintoit,itwasoneofthosethingswhereyoujuststarted—yougotyourregaliatogether,andyouwent out there and just startedwatching.Iwouldn’tcompete,Iwouldjust do what we call inter-tribal-typedancing, and I started learningdifferent styles, I would watch thefancy dancers out there, and then Iwould develop my own style. So Ididn’t really have somebody that Iwould—that I watched all the timeand said that that wasmymentor. Alot of it I had to just develop on myown, just going around at differentpowwowsanddancing.

And like I say, nowadays, it’scompletelydifferent.YoucanaskJohn,andJohncantellyouthenamesofallthesedifferentdancersoutthere.Andhe’ll tell you that—he’ll tell you theirstyle of dancing, he knows how theirregalia is put together, he studieseverything about that dancer. So he

hasthosementorstobeabletolookatall the time through the internet andthrough modern-day, society-typestuff,whereaswhen Iwas doing it, itwas just, you get out there and it’salmost like the schoolofhardknockswhere you just learn it and developyourownstyle.Tofindityourselfandjust—BR:Yeah,exactly.Okay.Whatdoes, now I know that thedesire for Fancy Dancing came to youinadream—BR:Yes.Whatdoesitrepresenttoyou?BR: It represents, I’ve always pridedmyself on when I’m—I’m a firemanandItrytodotheverybestthatIcanout there, and I realize that as afireman I have a gift to not only beable to fight fires but also to helppeople medically, whether it be in avehicle accident, whether it be just aregularmedicalcall,whetheritbeinafire. Whatever the nature is, I cancomeinandIfeellikeIhaveaspecialgifttohelpthatpersoninneed.WhenI’mdancing, I have that same feeling.And when I say I have that samefeeling, I feel like I’m dancing forpeople that can’t dance. So I pridemyselfonhavinghighenergy,havingagood heart, and I’m dancing for thepeoplethatcan’tdanceoutthere.

Andwhat’s so neat about it isthat through time, being the firstgenerationdancerinmyfamily,nowIsee my children, I see mygrandchildren, I see nieces andnephewsouttheredancingrightalong

with me. And that’s, I mean, whatmore could you ask for when you’resaying,“okay,Ihadadream,avision,Igetoutthere,Istartdancing,um,firstgeneration in my family, and now Ihave everybody dancing next to methat are family members.” It’s soheartwarming, and I tell myself that,thatIalwayspraythatIdon’tgethurtwhenI’mdancing,andthatIdon’tgethurt when I’m out fighting fires, thatI’mtheretohelppeople,andIpraytoalwaysbeputinthesituationwhereIcanhelpsomebodyatanygiventime,Idon’tpraytobeonfires,butIpraytobeintherightplacetobeabletohelpsomebody.

Whether it be saving theenvironment, saving the things thatMotherEarthhascreated,orsavingalifeoutthere,that’swhatIwanttobeabletodo.Whenitcomestodancing,Iknowthat Ihaveabeautiful regalia, Ipridemyself on things that representwhoIamasapersoninmybeadworkandthecolorsanddesignsthatIhaveinmyregalia,butIalsoknowtoothatit’saprivilegetobeabletodance.It’saprivilege tobeable todanceat fiftyyears old. And to dance this style ofdancing, and knowing that there’s somany people out there that havedifferent types of birth defects, theycome across different types ofillnesses,andtheyjustdon’thavethathealthtobeabletodothat,soIdancefor the people that can’t dance outthere.That’scool.BR:Thankyou.AndIthinkyouprobablydoitverywell.I know I’ve been to the powwow, andI’veprobablyseenyoudance.

BR:Oh,yes.Yeah.But,Ican’tthinkofitnow.BR:I’ll tellya, Iusedtodoa lotmorefancydancing than I donow, and thereason being is because, as youbecome a father, and you have workand the different responsibilitiesthere,andraisingyourchildreninthelifestyle, it’s hard to balance atraditional lifestyle of dancing andcarrying on your traditional values,andalsobeingabletobalancemoderndaysociety.Becausewe’reaveryfastpaced society. And so you have tolearn to balance the two together, soasa result, thatobviously takesawaytime for me to be able to dance outthereasmuchasIusedto.

When I was younger, I didn’thaveafamily,Ididn’thavefamilytiesoutthere.OnceIgotoffwork, Icouldget in the car and drive anywhere inCalifornia, up in Oregon,Washington,Utah,younameit.I’dbethere,andI’dbe fancy dancing.Now, it’smore of athingwherewetrytodoitasafamilytogether.Ican’tjustgetinthecarandleave family, and head off tosomewhere.

But I do promise my son,becausesomeofthedancesareplacesthat I’ve been to powwows dancing,that I will take him. And these arespecialthingsthatIwouldliketotakehim to before, before he goes on tocollegeandstartshisownlife,Iwouldlike to take him to the GatheringNations down in Albuquerque, NewMexico; I’d like to take him to theDenverStampedewhichisinMarch;Iwould like to take him to the CrowFair, and the Stanford Powwow. Sothese are some very large powwows

thatare,thatyouhavetotravelalittlebit to it, but I think itwould be veryspecialtobeabletogooverthereanddancewithmyson.Well, one of the questions that I haveabout the dancing: Does it alwaysfollow the same steps/pattern?Doyouhave,youknow,ballroomdancing,areyou doing awaltz and you have to docertainthings?BR:Fancydancingis,thereasonwhatmakes it so unique is it’s a verycolorful, fast-paced dance. The drumbeatsaretryingtotripyouup,they’retryingtogetreally fast, they’re tryingto see your endurance, they’re tryingtostop,makeyoustoponadime.Youknow,soasaresult,youdevelopyourownstyleofdancingoutthere.JR: The dancers and singers too, ‘cuztheyknowallthesongs.BR:Yeah, likemyson is saying too, alot of singers out there because theyunderstand that drum beat, and theyknowhowfastyougottastop,andonthe drum beat, they recognize thatdrum style, so that makes them abetter dancer out there. Whereas,myself, I’m not a singer, so, I pridemyself on dancing and staying veryphysicallyfittobeabletodothisstyleofdancing.

You develop your own type ofskill out there, and as mentionedbefore, I think one of the mostimportantthingsoutthere,asItalkedabout, that I dance for other peoplethatcan’tdanceoutthere.Ialsotalkedabout my eagle feathers and howmuchtheymeantome.A lotof fancydancers don’t dance with too manyeagle feathers out there, because of

thestylethatwe’redoing,thatyoucanruffle up the—but there are fancydancers that have eagle featherbustles,andthosearejustmagnificenttoseeoutthere.

I do dance with some eaglewings that I have put together,madeinto a fan, I also have onmy trollingstaff that I use eagle feathers, and Ihave it above my head, so I have alittle more eagle feathers out there,but I’vealwaysprayed that theeagle,my eagle that I have with me, that’sbeen blessed to me for dancing, thatthatspiritofthatbirdbecomesme.

When I’m out there dancing, Ipray that the heartbeat of that eaglebecomes my heartbeat. And so youtake on a spiritual part of that, andyou’re letting the life of that birdcontinue life through you and thedance.When Ienter thearena, Iprayformy grandfathers to come tome, Ipray formyspiritual guiders thatareouttheretobewithme,toprotectme,to keepme strong and healthywhenI’mdancingoutthere,andthatIcomeinwithacleanheart,andIaskthat ifthere’sanybadnessintheareawhereI’mdancing, that itbereflectedaway,andnottravelwithme.Becausewhenyou go to different areas, and you gotoallthesedifferentareasfordancingat powwows, you can have peoplewith not-good feelings, you can havepeople, and also we believe too thatyou can have spiritual beings outthere that like what they see, andwant to attach to you. So that’s whywhen you see the fancy dancingregalia, you’ll see different types ofmirrors,Iusemodern-dayCDsonme,and what that’s designed to do is, asyou’re twirling around, and ifsomethingwantstoclingontoyou,orsomeone has a bad thought, it’s

believed that it comes to you andreflectsoff.

Andsothatisaveryimportantpart, that a lot of people don’t knowaboutwhen it comes to dancing, thatyou’re always taking care of yourself.You’re alwayspraying and fasting foryour eagle feathers, you’re alwaysblessing your regalia that you havewithyou:because it’sreallysacredtohaveadancingregalia—verysacred.

Andyouhavetoliveandwalkacleanlife.Youcannotbeabadpersonandbeadancer,thetwojustdonotgotogether. You have to be a goodperson. And so when you decide tobecome a dancer, it’s a lifetimecommitment. And until you decide toletitgo,orifyoudecidetowalkabadlifeorsomethinglikethat,thatistimefor you to put down the dancing,becausethetwoofthemjustdon’tgohandinhandtogether.Whatabout,excuseme,theagesofthedancers?BR: Ages of dancers. You have, fromtiny—theyhaveacategoryoftinytots,soyoucansee fancydancers thatareoneyearold, thatare justbarelyabletowalkouttherefancydancing,alongwithalltheothercategoriesyouhave,then you move into the juniorcategory, then you move into teens,thenyouhavetheadultcategory,andsomeof the adultsmay goup to fiftyfiveyearsold,someofthemmightgoto fifty years old, and then youmoveintowhat isknownas thegoldenagecategory after that. And that’s anunlimitedageafteracertain—itcouldbe sixty, it could be fifty five, youneverknowwhatit’sgoingto—

I like that term so much better thansenior.BR: (laughs) Yeah! So you have allthose different age groups out there.And when we have an intertribaldance, that’s when all ages arewelcome out there, you don’t evenhave tobe inregalia tocomeoutanddance, even if you just wanna walkaroundinacirclewitheverybodyandfeelthedrumbeatandfeel,it’sjustsoneat to be in there, and see all theseeagle feathers, andbells, and just feelthe intensity and energy that’s in thearena, to be able towalk around andexperiencethat,andlistentothedrumbeats.JR: Those are good for contests too,theygiveyoupointsfordoingthose.BR: Yeah, just as John was talkingabout too, the intertribal dances,you’re doing competition, you haveyour competition dances. They alsohaveintertribaldances,thatIwasjusttalking about, where everybody iswelcome out there, but sometimesthey’lldospotchecksoutthere,andifyou’re out there dancing in thatintertribal dance where you don’thavetobeoutthere,becauseit’snotacompetition dance, but they willaward points to people that are outthereandspotcheck.Soanytimethatthathappens, thathelpsyou if you’reincompetitionandlet’sjustsayyou’rein contention between first andsecond place, and one day you takefirst place, and thenext day you takesecond place, if you have some ofthesespotcheckpointsoutthere,theywillboostyouoverandsoyoucanenduptakingfirstplace.

So it’savolunteer: somethingthatyoudon’thavetodo,butyoumightbenefitfromit.JR:Mhm.BR:Yes,that’scorrect.Cool. So what about the differentregalia pieces, I’ve seen some thatyou’veshowntome—BR:Mhm.—A bit earlier, but what is themeaningofthose?BR: Regaliapieces:you’recomingupwith your own style. So you see, thefancy dance is going to be doublebustle. So you’ll have twobustles outthere. Traditionally, you’re going tohave a roach over the top of you,which is a,made of porcupine,whichisthelonghairthatyouseeoutthere,you may have one feather, twofeathers,thatyoudancewith.Youmaynotevenhaveanyeagle feathers thatyoudancewithbecause,onthetopofyour head, because, as you’re goingthrough life you take on, if you’remarried,somepeoplebelievethat—orsome tribes, I should say—if you’remarried, that you can have the twoeagle feathers for yourself and yourspouse over there, otherwise you’regoing tohaveone feather. Soyouseethe different types of arrangements,based upon the different tribes outthere.

But you look at my regalia, Ihave different colors that representdifferentthingstome.IhavedifferentpatternsthathelptoexplainwhoIamas a person. For example, I showedyou,youlookatmostofmybeadwork

would be like a diamond. It has fourcorners on there. And each of thosecorners represents who I am as aperson. You see that one corner willrepresentmyselfbeingastrongfamilyperson. You see another corner thatrepresents me being a hunter and afisherman. You’ll see another cornerthat represents being a fireman, andyou’ll see another corner thatrepresentsbeingadancerandartist.Ifyou take a look at me from theoutside, that’s what you see of mefrom the outside, and that’s whatmakesmeasaperson.

And then we have the innerside, and you look at the beadworkand you’ll see how it progressesinward, until you get to that finaldiamond, which is your destiny oryour purpose in life. So that’s theoutsideworkingintoexplainwhoyouareontheinside.Andsothat’showalotofmybeadworkissetup,isIhavethe, if you look at the patterns, you’llalwaysseethosefourcornersthatareinthere,thatrepresentswhoIamasaperson.So when it has a meaning, it doesn’thaveageneralmeaning?Ithasaverypersonalmeaning.BR:Correct.Foreachdancer.BR:Yes.Exactly.Okay.BR:Andthesamethingtoowhenyoulook at different symbols that are onthere,notonly thebeadpatterns,butyoulookatthebuffalo,andthebuffalorepresents strength to me. You’ll see

theeagleinthere,andtheeagleismyprotector. You’ll see the elk, and theelk is my spiritual guider. So thesedifferent animals that you see in mybeadwork also represent differentparts of me that help to give meguidanceinlife.Hastheregalia—you’vebeendoingthisforthirtyyears.BR:Thirtyyears,correct.Hastheregaliachangedovertime?BR: Oh yeah, yeah. It just, you see,especiallywhen I first started gettingin, it was, you would see moretraditional, a littlemorebuckskinoutthere, the beadwork might be verysimple out there, and then as thingsstartedchanging,youstarttoseealotmore synthetic-type stuff where yousee, instead of the beadwork ondifferent aprons and capes, you’ll seedifferentfabricpatternsthataresewninthere.Andyoucanseethedifferentglitter,andyouevenseesomeofthesedancers that have some sort oflighting on them, at night time, youcansee,sothingsevolve,overthe—JR:Andeven the shapeof thebustlestoo.BR: Yeah. The shape of the bustles,and a lot of the things are designed,justlikeanysportsthatareoutthere,andyoulookathowitwasfortyyearsago and how it was nowadays, andyou see the different things thatyou’ve seen to help that dancer, orthat athlete, to compete harder. Andsoyou’llseethattoo.

Has it gotten more physical, do youthink?BR: I don’t think it’s gotten morephysical. I think it’s one of thosethings where it’s always been a veryphysicallydemanding-typedance.Anyof the dances that you do are veryphysically dancing—or requirephysical fitness to be able to handlethatstyleofdancingbecause,notonlytobeabletocompetitiondancebuttogetout thereandcompete threedaysin a row. And that’s typically what apowwow competition will be, is aFriday, Saturday, and Sunday.ChampionshipdaybeingonSunday.

So I think that the styles ofdancing, you know, how a dancerdances, has changed, along with thedifferent types of regalia you see haschangedover there too, itwas justasphysical, but in order to be verycompetitive, it’s one of those thingswhere it’s just likeasportwhereyouhaveamateurathletesthatmoveontobecomeprofessionalathletes.Youcansee the same thing and theconditioning level that they gothrough. You can see the same thingwith dancers out there. We havedancers that dedicate theirwhole lifetodancing,wherethey’re,everysingleweekend, they’re travelling to adifferent powwow. Versus somebodylikemyself,balancingeverythingfromfamilylifetojobs,everythinglikethat,andImayonlydance,two,three,fourpowwows a year, versus that onethat’s dancing twenty, thirtypowwows. And theymay even travelas a group to foreign countries, orbepart of an entertainment group that’sbrought in to do special eventswhenthey do special dances out there, ortheymightbesuchaslikedownatthe

Grand Canyon, where they haveconstant dancing displays; NewMexico, in Albuquerque, where theyhave constant dancing going on outthere, and youmight be part of that.So you can see, just like any othersportoutthere,whereyoumaygooutthere and do it infrequently, versusthat athlete that’s out there everysingledaytrainingforit.And it sounds to me, from what youwere talking about, excuseme, a littlewhile ago, that the drum leads thedance.BR: Oh, yeah. You’re going to getdifferent dance groups out there thatare very good at what they do. Amajority of all of them are very goodatwhattheydo.Andit’sjustlike, justlike dancing, you’re going to havegroups that are together all the time,they develop their songs and they’revery fast songs, and they’ll be verytricky songs, very high energy, andthey’re very well-known. They haveCDs, they’re recorded, you can, youknow, listen to their music, and tryandpickuptheirstyleofsingingthatthey’redoing,and itwill change fromsouthern style to northern style.Southern style has a very, very fast-paced, and they do a different drumbeat,andit’sa,moreofafive-drum,areally fast succession of five drumbeats in a row that’s going to stopyour dance. Versus up here, whereyouhavea threedrum,dundundun,and then that’s when you’re going tostop.Versus,dundundundundun.Whodoesthedrumming?The drumming are different groupsthat come together, and so some

groups are family groups, somegroupsarefromlocal,youhavemaybeall Washoes that come up with agroup, you can have theReno SparksIndian Colony have a group, you canhave these groups that are, thatrepresentawholenation,and they’reverywellknown,andtheytravel,andtheycouldcharge$20,000forthemtocomeinandbeadrumgroupforyourpowwow, to be the lead drum group.It’s amazing what they can charge,because it’s like having awell-knownsinging artist out there, versus anamateurartist,andyou’regoingtopaythousands,ifnot,tensofthousands,ofdollarstohaveawell-knownsingertocomein,versusanamateursingeroutthere.Let’s see. Okay, one of my questionswas,what about FancyDance, outsideof powwows—now you talked abouttraveling, going to China, as ademonstration—so outside ofpowwows, is most of Fancy Dancingsome sort ofeducational/demonstrationsetup?BR: Yeah.Whathashappened is thatyouhave,whenitcomestopowwows,youhavecertainstylesofdancingnowthatbeforeusedtobewhereyouhadnumerous tribes out there and theyhad all their own traditional-typedancing,suchasdancingforacornsordancing for a pine nut harvest,dancing for, the bear dance, ordancing for antelope harvesting, orfishing, or something that wastraditional in your area, so you hadthat style of dancing—powwows aredeveloped into where they havecertain categories that they have outthere, soyou start to see these fancy,andwomenhavethefancyshawl,you

havethejingledancingforthewomen,you have traditional dancing for themen,youhave the fancydancing,youhave thegrassdancers, andyouhavethe traditional dancers out there.Some of the different will have, theycan have a competition dance,whereit’s a couple’s dance, there’s an owldance, and it’s almost like a two-stepforacowboy,acowboy-typetwo-stepthing, and so you have thesecategories that now have beenstreamlined down into what we nowaccept as normal-type dance, or youknow, a style of dancing that youwould see at any powwow. And so,youdon’tseetoooftenthetraditionalstyledancinggoingoutand traveling,maybe into a different country; whatyou would see is more of the fancydancer along with the traditionaldancer and a grass dancer, and as agroup you would go over there andshow the different styles of dancingthat’s out there. I don’t think you seetoo much of where you have a beardancer go over across country anddance. It’s just become that style ofdancing.

Idodoaneagledance,andthatisonethatwedo—thatIdidoverseasinChina.Anditwasverywellreceivedout there, because I think it’s reallyfascinatingtolookatit,it’swhereyouhavethewingsandthehead,andyouhave a whistle that you’re blowingthat’s from the eagle, and it’s reallyneattoseethatstyleofdancing.So that was the head that you had inthecase,theeagle?BR:Yeah.Soisthatlikeahat,oramaskthatyouwouldwear?

BR: It’s the hat that comes over thetopofyou.Andthat’smoreofaPacificNorthwest style. The eagle dancingthat was done around here by ourPaiutes, not theWashoes,washavingtheroachoverthetopofyou,andthenhavingthewingsoftheeaglefeathers,andalittleslower-paceddancing.We’llhavetogetapictureofthat.BR:Yeah.That’s cool.What Iwant todo, isnowI’mgoingtoshifttoJohn.BR:Excellent.JR:Mhmm.HiJohn.(Laughs)BR: Now I can go to the bathroom.(Laughs)Yourdadhastalkedalotaboutyou.JR:Mhmm.Hethinksyoudogoodwork.Andyou’vebeeninterestedinthisfromatiny,tinyage.JR:Yeah.Doyou rememberwhenyouwere firstinterested in it, or possibly why youwerefirstinterestedinit?JR: I just remember them telling methat ever since I couldwalk, that I’vebeen doing it. So probably just, youknow,watchingmydaddoingit.Thenjust going out with him during theintertribalsandthegrandentries.

Now your dad’s is very spirituallyguided.JR:Mhmm.Isyourstoo?Doyoudreamaboutit,doyou—?JR: Yeah, but he’s at the point of hislifewherehe’salreadylearnedallthatkindofstuff,andhe’sbeenthroughitall,and I’m just, I’m juststarting that.Just because I’m a lot younger thanhim.(Laughs).WelloneofthequestionsIwasgoingtoaskyourdad,andI’llaskitforyounow:DoyouhopetocontinuewiththeFancyDancingfora long, longtime? Doyouseethisasyourlife’smission?JR:Yeah,IreallydobelievethatI’llbejust like my dad, dancing for, until Ican’tdanceanymore,basically.Whatdoyoudotostayinshape?JR: Well I’m in sports year roundbasically. I’m in football, then afterfootball I’ve got wrestling, then afterwrestling,takealittlebreak,andthenget back ready for spring footballagain. So it’s just year-round,constantly doing stuff. And then mydadworksmeoutprettyhardtoo.But is it specific to the FancyDancingregime?JR: No, not really.We just kind of goonruns,orrunsomesprints,andthatnormally gets you in pretty goodshape.He’snotgoingtoletyougetslow.

JR:Yeah.Youhavetokeepupwithit.JR:Mhmm.So—JR: Yeah, because if you’ve everwatched a Fancy Dancer dance, it’sfast.It’safast-paceddance.Does theFancyDancinghelp youwithyour sports? I’m thinking of thefootwork for football, and that kind ofthing.JR: Yeah, I think it definitely did helpout, because of the footwork. Youknow, because you’re constantly onyour toes, moving around, switchingthemup.What level do you compete at, age-wise?Areyouajunior?JR:I’mintheteenscategory.Teenscategory.Sowhatageisthat?JR: That’s I believe, from thirteen toseventeen.Okay.JR:AndIthinkifyou’re,likelastyearatFather’sDaypowwow, therewasaseventeen year-old, and he didn’twant to compete in the teen, so hewent up to adult. And I think heactually won it. He’s a really gooddancer.Sowouldhehavetogetpermission?

JR: Yeah, I thinkyou justhave toaskourRenoDirector.Yeah,Ithinkthat’swhat he did. Because I think therewereonlytwoorthreeofusthatwerein the teencategory. Sohewanted togouptothemen’scategory.Whataboutyou,areyouhappytobeintheteensrightnow?JR:Yeah.WhatdoyouthinkabouttheinterestinFancy Dancing among people yourage?JR: I don’t really think a lot ofNativeteens, they normally don’t, no onereallycansaythattheygooutandgoto all these different powwows, Imeanthere’salotofdancers,butalotofNativesdon’treallygetintothatorgetinvolvedwithit.What about non-Natives, do theydance?JR: Normally you don’t really see toomany non-Natives dancing atpowwows.Howwouldyoufeelaboutthat?JR:Forme,Iprobablywouldn’ttakeitas dishonor, whatever, but I mean,someofthedancersgetreally—Idon’tknow, they just kind of want Nativepeople to be doing it only. But Iwouldn’treallycare.How about you, Ben? Non-Nativedancers?BR:Yeah,youdon’treallyseethattoooften.Whatyoudoseeoutthereis—

JR:Mixed.BR: You know, mixed, like myself,being half Native, and so nowadaysyou see a lot of kids that aredancingthat could be, that are pretty fair-skinned, and they are, they usuallyhave some sort of lineage back tohaving a family member that, orhaving some sort of family that isNative American. So I don’t reallyknow if I see anybody that is non-Nativeoutthere.JR: Yeah, I’venevermet a non-Nativedancer.BR: But my way of looking at thewhole thing, and I hope I’ve tried toshow this through all the differentinterviews, is that being Native is inyourheart. It’snot inyourskincolor,it’s your heart. And if you have thedesire to want to dance, and you’renon-Native, there’s, you can get onYouTube and see all these Germansthat are learning all the traditionalwaysoftheNativeAmericanandtheyhave their ownpowwowsover there,it’sprettyneattosee.Theyhave,theybring drum groups over, they bringdancers over, they bring traditionalpeople, they sow traditional waysbecausetheywanttolearntheNativeways out there and put on their ownpowwow.Maybethatshouldbeyournexttrip.BR: (laughs) Yeah, it could be! We’llbe looking in the mail for the planeticket! But yeah, I really think beingNativeisinyourheart.Okay.This iskindofmy finalquestion.The title of our exhibit is going to be

“Nevada Native Culture: Preservationand Adaptation.” How do you thinkpreservationofcultureandadaptationof culture applies to Fancy Dancing?AndI’llaskyoufirst,John.JR:Ohsorry,Ikindofspacedout,whatdidyousay?(Laughs).Well,at leastyouweren’tonyourphone!JR:(Laughs).Yeah.Idothatwithmygrandkids.Okay.Thetitle of our exhibit is “Nevada NativeCulture:PreservationandAdaptation.”HowdoyouthinkthatappliestoFancyDancing?JR:IthinkthatreallyappliestoFancyDancingbecauseadaptation,different,like fromwhere itstarted towhere itisnow,it’schangedquiteabit,Ithink.Imean now, you don’t have asmanynative kids now doing it. I mean, Iknow a lot of Native kids that are inmy school and everything, but I’mbasically one of the only ones thatdances at thepowwowsaroundhere.And I don’t know how it was backthen, but I’m sure that there wereprobably a lot more dancers thantherearenow.Do you think Fancy Dancing helps topreserveNativeCulture?JR: Definitely, yeah. Because it’ssomething that’s kind of been dyingout,andIthinkifwegotmoreNativekids to get more involved in it, itwould definitely preserve the Nativeculture. Because that’s a big part ofNative culture, is Fancy Dancing and

powwows, and all the differentdances.Okay, Ben, how about you? Did youspaceout?(Laughs)BR: No, I (laughs), so I heard thequestion, Iunderstand thequestion. Ithink John is right on: he’s talkingabout where we don’t see nearly asmany dancers that we used to see.And I think a lot of it has to dowithhowsocietyhasevolved.Wehavethesocialmediawhereyoudon’tseealotof kids going out and just learninghowtomaketraditionalartsoutthere.How many kids go out there and gofishing, how many go out and gohunting,howmanyspend time in theoutdoors, and not only do we see itwith society, we also see it with ourown Native youth out there that arenot nearly spending asmuch time astheyusedto.

And I think a lot of differenttraditionalartssuchasbasketmakingtobeadingto,andevendancing,we’restarting to see a lot of that culturebeing lost. And then there are timeswhere you start to see it beingrevitalized out there. And I think thelanguageprogramisbeingrevitalized,I think we do have different dancegroupsoutthere,andIknowI’mkindofcontradictingmyself,butIseekindof a yo-yo type thing there wherewe’re losing a lot of kids that don’twant to learn language, that don’twanttolearnhowtomaketraditionalartsofourpeople.Theydon’twanttodance, because of the commitmentthat’s involved with dancing. Andwhat I mean by that is to be, to getyour regalia because you look atsomething liketheregalia thatmyselfandJohndancein,ifyoucan’tmakeit

all yourself, how can you put a pricetagonthat?Becauseyoucan’tjustgodown and buy it at a Wal-Mart.Sometimes these things get passeddown from family to family, whenchildren are dancing, they’re alwaysgrowing, so you have to constantlyreplace their regalia, and that can beextremely expensive out there to dosomethinglikethat.JR:Infact,I’mmakinganewonerightnow. And I think tonightwe’re goingtoordersomethingforthebustle.BR: Yeah. So you’re constantly,constantlymaking new things to addtoyourregalia.Youcan’tjustputitalltogether and say, “Oh yeah, okay, it’sdone.”Whenyou’redancingoutthere,you’rewearingdownyourmoccasins,you may be growing in size, so it’stough to stay committed to dancing,andIthinkit’sjustlikeanyothersportthat our youth get involved with,where they may be really good atplayingfootball,andtheyhitacertainage, or baseball, and then they juststop because they take on, they haveresponsibilities to be able to raise afamily, to be able to adapt to today’ssociety,andso,gettingbacktowhatIwas talking about before, it’s a verytough thing to do to balance the twolives,tolearnyourtraditionalways,tobe able to be, to commit the time tobeing a dancer, and to live in today’ssociety.It’saverydifficultthingtodo.And I think the families that are outthere that I see are doing, andbalancing both of those, I applaudthem,becauseit’sdifficulttodo.Doeitherofyouspeak,nowyou’rewithDuck Water, you’re enrolled in DuckWater.

BR:DuckValley,actuallyDuckValley.DuckValley.BR:Paiute-Shoshone.SodoyouspeakPaiute?BR:IdonotspeakPaiute.And,butwedohavelanguageclassesouttherewego to fromtime to time.Sherry’s sideofthefamily,allofheraunts,andhergrandmother,andhergrandfather,umthatwaswhatwas spokenwhen youwent to their household, all the time.She has one aunt that is a languageteacher,andgoesaroundandteacheslanguage,Sherryherselfknowsquiteabit, but to be able to sit down andspeak the language, I thinkwould bedifficult for her to do. But she doesunderstand a lot of the language outthereandknowsa lotof thedifferentwords, so you see, even in WashoeCounty,wheretheyofferthelanguageclass, you see a lot of kids that arenon-Native that are taking the Paiutelanguage class because that will helptowards theirqualification forcollegeas a language that they can take. Buttherearea lotofnon-NativestudentsthattakethePaiutelanguage.

TheWashoelanguage,whichisa very difficult language to learn, isprobably more in jeopardy of beinglost in this area than the Paiutelanguage,becauseyoucanstillgoouttoPyramidLake,McDermott, toDuckValley, and you can hear the Paiutelanguage being spoken out there.Versus,youcomeheretotheWashoetribe, and there are very few peoplethat are speaking the Washoelanguageandbeingfluentatspeakingthelanguage.Soitvariesfromtribeto

tribe. And a lot of our kids, justbecauseof the education, if youwantto go into college and things are sodemanding foryouasastudent tobeabletomoveintomodern-daysocietyand get a good education, that ifyou’replayingsports,andyou’re, likeJohn, he’s playing sports year round,and then learning, and dancing, anddoinghistraditionalways,alongwith,ifyou’retryingtoqualifyandget intoa college, you can see how you justdon’thavethatmuchtimeatall.Andifhe wants to add in learning thelanguage on top of that: very, verydifficult.

Andtheprobleminmyopinionthat,thebiggesthurdlethat’sbeenforourNativepeopletoovercomeisthatwe had two generations there whereyou were not allowed to speak yourlanguage, and be able to do yourtraditional ways. You were forced tobe able to fit in with today’s society.Andsoalotofthelanguage,andalotofthetraditionalartsandthedancingwerelostduringthattime.Sonowyousee a revitalization of a lot of things,butyouhaveasmalleraudiencetobeable to get to, be able to teach thelanguage, so you have a smalleraudience to teach traditional ways.Andsofortwogenerationsthere,alotof our stuff was absolutely lost. Youweren’t able to be able to speak, orpractice traditional ways. And it’speoplelikeJohn,it’speoplelikeyou’regoing to go out and see Ralph BurnsandBenAlec,outthere,it’speoplelikeMishawnup in Reno, it’s Sherrywiththe Nevada Indian Commission, allthesedifferentdancersthatareinthisarea here that are still dancing, andstillworking,andbeingabletoraiseafamily, and trying to pass on theirtraditionalways to theirchildren,but

it really comes down to the childthemselves, or the individualthemselves, how much they want tolearn, if they reallywant to learn thelanguage or if they want to learn tobecome a dancer, you can’t forcesomebodytodothat,that’snotagoodway to look at it, it comes from theheart.

And so it’s very difficult, verydifficult to see a lot of our traditionalways carried on. And that’s why youlook around our house and it lookslike a museum in here. And I trulywould love tohaveamuseumandbeable to showcase the things that wehavehereand tobeable topass thaton to John’sgenerationandhavehimpass it on to another generation too.Andsothingslikethathopefullydon’tgetlost.WellJohn,JR:Hmm?Thank you. Do you have one finalcomment that you’d like tomake thatsumsitallupforyou?JR:(laughs)No.Youdon’thaveto.No?JR:No.Okay.BR: What is it that you alwayswritedown, in your, was it “Go Native” or“Be Native,” or something like that,thatyouusedtoalways,JR:Idon’tknow.

BR: Remember, inyourartwork,youused toalwaysputdown? Johnusedto always put down “Native” on hisartwork,andweusedtogoaroundtodifferent conferences, and he’d find awhiteboard or a chalkboard, and hewouldwrite lettering down that says“Native”onit.JR:Thatwaslikeonetime,butyeah.Butyourdadremembered.JR:Yeah(laughs).Well thank you both very much. Thatwasjustwonderful.BR:You’rewelcome.ENDOFRECORDING