At the Cafe - Errico Malatesta - Conversations on Anarchism

8/6/2019 At the Cafe - Errico Malatesta - Conversations on Anarchism

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CAFE


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AT THE CAF:CONVERSATIOSON AARCSMBY ERRICO MALAT ESTA

FRE EDOM PRESS


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AT THE CAF:CONVERSAIONSON ANARCHISM

BY ERRICO MALATESA

Edited wth an introducton

by Paul Nursey-Bray

Translated by Pau NurseyBray

wit te assistance of Piero Ammrao


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CONE T

Introducion 6 Dalogue Nne 80

Dalogue One 12 Dalogue Ten 88

Dalogue Two 18 Dalogue Eleven 98

Dalue Three 26 Dalogue Twelve 104

Dalogue Four 34 Dalogue Threen 110

Dalogue Fve 44 Dalogue Fureen 1

Grophic Design od Phographs by Nilo WetiPublhed by Frdom Pres84B Whihopel High Sree, Londo El 7QX

Dalogue Sx 52 Daogue Ffee 126

ISBN Daogue Seen 60 Dalogue Seen 36

Prid i Greo Brio by Aldgoe PreDalogue EghU / Guorpe Workshops Guhorp Sree Londo E 7RQ 2 Daogue Sevenee 146


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Malatesta began wrting the seres of dalogues that make up Atthe Ca: Cnveratins n Anarchm n March , whle hewas n hdng n Ancona and busy wth the producton o the perodcal L'Agtozne. Lug Far n hs account of ths perod,wren to ntroduce he edton o the full set of daogues(Blgna, Edzini d Vo/ont) edted by Malatesta (RepntTnSogof 196) gves s a begulng pcure of Malatestaclean-shaven as a dsguse comng and gong aout the cy ppe

n mouth smlng mpudently at hs frends who for the sake of hssafey wshed hm esewhere.

The dea of the dalogues was suggested to hm by the ct that heofen frequented a caf hat was not usualy the haunt of subversves such as hmself Indeed one of the regulars, who was amember of the polce, used to engage Malatesta n conversatonwthout of course as Fabbr notes any dea that a real prze laywthn hs grasp Anarchsm would almost certanly een one of

the topcs of conversaton snce the anarchsts of the ct constantly bombarded er ellow townspeople wth a barrage of propaganda that occasoned frequent trals

The form that the daogues were to tae was drawn then from anactual venue and from Malatesa's own experience It resulted na erary devce ecelently wel suted to hs partcuar genuswhch s hs ably to render comple deas nto straghforwardlanguage and to make them drecty accessble. The dalogue ormalso allowed Malatesa o debate the deas of hs opponents

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whle subjectng hs own anarchst vews to a crtcal scrunyamed at communcatng to hs readers ther poltcal mport andther praccal applcal Indeed one of the strengths of the dalogues s the asence of straw men The nquston o anarchsms searchng and genune ofen hghlghtng what ts opponentswould regard as ponts of weaness and vulneraly It makesMaatestas sprted defence all the more mpressve

Towards the end of Malatesta was dentfed and dscoveredy the Ancona polce He was arrested and then releasedImmedately he began a round of lectures abandonng both hsjourna and the unfnshed dalogues In he was placedunder house arrest and n March he fled abroad once morebecomng a refugee. The dalogues remaned nterrupted at number ten and n ths form hey were publshed oth n ournals andas a pamphlet

The chef propagandsts of the frst ten dalogues are Malatestasater ego Gorgo an anarchst Prospero a wealthy memer ofthe ourgeoSe Cesare a shopeeper and Amrogo a magstrate Malatesta s thus able to reflect a range of poltcal postonsand vews drawn from a wde spectrum of soce f Prosperospeaks for wealth and prvlege Cesare speaks for the smallerpropery owners and the mddle classes He shows an awarenessof socal prolems and appears amenable to persuason byGorgo, but he also ehbts a concern that any soluton must notbe allowed to dsrupt the estng socal order Ambrogo s the

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exstng poltcal systm. The last daogue of this new seres(Daogue Fourten) returns to the thme of revouton WhatGorgo emphasses s that anarchsm n ts dsre to remove thestate and governmnt s a new factor n hstory and proposeschanges qute ferent and more profound than prevous revolutons whch ame smply at changng th potcal regme

Onc more th dalogues were to b nterrupt by poltcaevents In June 94 as the storm clouds of Word War I gathere srous popuar rsngs broke out n the Marches andRomagna n what became known as Red Week Malatesta wasnvolve n these popular struggles and as a rsult was forc totak refuge n ondon Sx yars passd an Malatesta returnedto Itay establshng hmself n Man where h edted theNewspper Umanid o He was too busy, Fabbr notes, to

gve hs atenton to the old daogues and h dd not ntend toadd to thm Howvr Fabbr nforms us that someone or otherwho spent a ortnght wth hm as a guest persuaded hm to contnue wth th project The mysterous guest must one woul thnkhav been Fabbr hmslf The result was further thre aloguesa contnuaton rather than a concluson snc there s no obvouspont of cosure.

In thes last three essays some old topcs are revsted and some

new thmes of contemporary sgnfcance, receve atntonDalogu Ften ntroducs Gno, a worker an canvasses thefars of ordnary people about a lack of cvl orer n the proposed stateless socy and the perceved need or poc PolceMalatesta argues through Gorgo breed crmnals just as he hadargued arlr n Anrchy that the louvrr (wolf catchers breedwolves snce wthout wovs or crmnals the survval of the respectve boes of ofcas woud be n jeopary (ondon 974: 33-34) Soca defnce h asserts s a communy responsby Thefct that ths ssue was lready dscussed n Dalogue Eleven s an

ndcaton of ts mportance to Malatesta n Daogu Sxteen wmet Pppo a crppled war veteran who opens up the questons

o natonasm and patrotsm The ponts Maatsta mks hereecho enn's ca for class sodar n th fce of th vsv andestructve natonasm of the Frst Word War Gorgo makes tcear that n hs vew patrotsm s smply a devce by whch thebourgeose recruts workng cass support for the exstng proprty rgme and the terrtora ambtons of those who beneft fromt Fnaly n Dalogue Sevnteen ug a socast enters an adscusson nsues that ams at dstngushng anarchsm from bothparamentary and authortaran socasm bu wth th key focuson the nevtabe faur of the paramentary path an of any formof what Eduard Bernsten had cald evolutonary socalsm Thneed for a revolutonary chang s underned

Work on the dalogues n ther prsent form was complet byOctober 920 On 6 October Maatesta was arrsted an

plced n the prson f San Vore There was an extnsve polcsearch of hs apartmnts for arms an explosves but the manuscrpt of the alogues rmaned undscovered or gnord Thywere publshe as a set wth Fabbrs ntoducton n 922.

Thes daogus of Maatsta reprsent not ust a maor contrbuton to anarchst potca thory but a sgnfcant hstorca document Wrn over a prod of 23 years they are a commntaryon turbulent tmes and vta hstorcal events coverng as thy o

an epoh dstngushed n partcular by eft-ng agtaton anorgansaton across Europe Durng the tme spanne by theserumnatons on anarchsm the world wtnssed the Seconnternatona the rse of Bolshvsm the Frst Word War th brthof Fascsm and th Russan Revolutons bth of 904 and 9Wthout any drect alluson t ny of these events the daloguesengage n a lvely debate wth many of the ssues that thy rasn a real sens Matesta has crafted anarchs theory nto a runnng commentary on hs tms t s a work of ntllgence syeand r artstry.

Paul NursyBray


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O

P R O S P E R [A plump member of the bourgeoisie, fu ofpolitical economy a other scences]: But of course ofcourse . we kow all about t here are people s ufferg

from huger wome prottutg themselves chldre dygfrom a lack of ce. You aways say the same thg . the

ed you become borg Allow me to savour my gela peace eta ly there are a thousad ev ls our socey

huger gorace war crme plague terrble mshaps

so what? Why s t your cocer?

M H EE A student who keeps company with socialsts

and anarchsts: I beg you pardo? Why s t my cocer?

You have a comfortable home a welprovsoed table ser

vats at your commad for you everythg s fe Ad aslog as you ad yours are all rght eve f the world aroud

you collapses othg maters Really f you oly had a lt

tle heart .

P R O S P E R Eough eough dot sermose Stop

ragg youg ma You thk am sesble dfferet to

the msfortues of others. O the cotrary my heart bleeds

(water brg me a cogac ad a cgar) my heart bleeds;but the great socal problems are ot resolved by setmet

he laws of atue are mmutable ad ether great speeches or mawksh setmetalty ca do aythg about t he

wse peso accepts fate ad get s the best out of l fe that heca wthout ug afer potess dreams

MHEE Ah? So we are dealg wth atural laws? .Ad what f the poor got t to ther heads to correct these

laws of ature I have heard speeches hardly supportve oftese superor laws

PROSPER: Of course of course. We well kow the peope wth whom you assocate O my behalf tell those

scoudrel socalsts ad aarchsts who you have chose to

be your prefered compay that for them ad for those whowould ry to put practce her wcked theores we havegood solders ad ecellet carabiner.

M E Oh! If you are gog to brg the solders adte carabineri I wot talk aymore It s lke proposg a

fst fght to demostrate my opos are error However

dot rely o brute force f you have o other argumets

omorrow you may fd yoursef the weakest posto;wha the?

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PROSPERa. Wa n? Wll f a msforun souldcom abou r would b gra dsordr, an xposon of

l pass ons, massacrs loo ng and n would al

rurn o ow was bfor Mayb a fw poor poplwould a bcom nrcd, som rc popl would a

falln no pory, bu orall nong would a cangd,bcaus wold canno cang. Bng m jus bng me

on of s anarcs agaors of yours and you wll s

ow I wll an s d. y a good a fllng ads ofpopl lk you w all sos bcaus your ads a

mpy bu youll s w y wll b abl o manan

r absurds w m.

M I C HE LE All rg wl brng a frnd of mn wo oldssocals and a nacs prncpls and I w ll promo your ds

cusson w m w plasur In manm dscuss ma

rs w m, fo wl sll don a wll dlopd opn

ons I clary s a socy as s organzd oday, s a

ng conrary o good sns and dcncy. Com now, youar so fa and Floursng a a b of xcmn wll no do

yo any arm I wll lp you dgson

PROSPERa Com on, n ls a a dscusson. Bu

yo oug o know a would b br f you sudd

nsad of spng ou opnons abou mars a ar

pronc of ors mor larnd and wsr b I can

g you yars?

M I C H HE s dos no pro a you a sud d mo

and f I a o judg you from wa you a bn sayng,I doub a n f you a sudd a lo you a gandmuc from

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OPa Yong man, young man rally Ls a

e spc.

MCELE A rg, I rspc you Bu don' row my ag y fc as f n fac you wr rasng an objcon o m

poc Argmns a no old or young, y arad o bad as a

OPEa Wll, wll ls g on w wa you a o

sy

MelE I mus say a I canno undrsand wy peasans a o, sow and ars a nr suffcn

brd, no wn or ma wy brcklayrs a buld oussdon a a oof fo sl, wy somaks a wornsoes. In o wods, wy s a os wo work, aproduc yng lack basc ncsss wl os wo

don do anng l n abundanc. I canno undrsand

y a pop a lack brad, wn r s muc

cuad l and and a lo of popl wo would b xrm

ly ppy o b ab o cula wy ar r so many

blays ou of work wl r ar los of popl woed oss wy many somakrs dssmakrs c .. ar

wou wok wl majory of populaon lacks

sos clos and all ncsss of cl lf Could you

plas ll m wc s naural law a plans and jusfs s absuds?

PROPERa Nong could b mor clar and smpl

o produc uman labour s no noug you nd land,arals ools, prmss macnry and you als nd

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mes o survve hle g for he produc o be mde

d delvered o he mrke: ord you eed cp

Your pess, your orkers hve oly her physc

lbour; s cosequece hey co ork f s uch s o he

sh of hose ho o ld d cpl Ad sce e re

fe umber d hve eough eve f for hle eleve our ld uculved d our cpl operve

hle he orkers re my d re lys cosred by

mmede eeds follos h hey mus ork heever

d hoever e sh d o hever erms h su us

Ad he e o loger eed he r lb our d clc ul e h

here s o g from mg hem ork, hey re forced o

rem dle eve he hey hve he grees eed for he

very hgs hey could prodceAre you coe o? ould I expl more cerly h

hs?

M I L E er ly h s s h oe clls spekg

frkly here s o queso bou h

Bu by h rgh does ld beog oly fe? o s

h cpl s foud fe hds, specfclly hehds of hose ho do o ork?

R O SE R Yes yes I ko h you re syg o me

d I eve ko he more or less lme rgu mes h h ch

ohers old oppose you he rgh of he oers derves

from he mproveme hey brg o he ld from svgs bymes of hch lbour s rsformed o cpl ec Bu

le me be eve more frk Thgs re s hey re s heresul of hsorcl fcs he produc of hudreds of yers of

hum hsory The hole of hum esece hs bee s6

ad lys be couous sruggle There re hoseo ve fred e d hose ho hve fred bdly Whca o bo ? So much he orse for some so much her for ohers. Woe o he coquered Ths s he grd

of ure gs hch o revol s possble

od you lke? Should deprve myself of ll I hve

$ c ro povery hl e someoe else su ffs hemselves

o y moey?

I I do o excly h B u I' m h kg h

f e orers profg from her umbers d bsg hem

ves o your heory h lfe s sruggle d h rghs

erve from fcs ge he de o her heds of creg

e hsorc fc, by kg y your ld d cpl

ugurg e rghs?

ROSR: Ah! erly, h ould complce mers

. e shll coue o oher occso No I hve ogo o he here

Goo eveg o you ll


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TWO

MBROGIO [e] ise Sigor Prospero, ow

h i is jus bewee ourselves, ll good oservives The

oher eveig whe you were lkig o h empy hed

Mhele I did o w o iervee bu do you hik h

ws he wy o defed our isiuios?

I very erly seemed h you were he rhis

P R O S P E R O: Well , I ever Why is h?

AMBROGIO Beuse wh you were syig i essee

is h ll of he prese soil orgisio is fouded o

fore hereby providig rgumes for hose who would like

o desroy i wih fore Bu wh bou he su preme p ri

ples whih gover ivi soieies righs morliy religio

do hey ou for yhig?

P R O S P E R O : Of ourse you lwys hve mouh full of

righs I is bd hbi h omes from your professio

If omorrow he govermes should deree les suppose

olleivism you woud odem he supporers of prve

proper wih he sme impssiveess wih whih ody you

odem he rhiss d lwys he me of hesupreme priiple of eel d mmuble righs

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You see i s oly uesio of mes You sy righs I s ye bu he, wh relly ous re he bessed

ber, d whoever hs hem o heir sde is righ

ROGIO ome, ow Sigor Prosper! I seems

ossble h your ove of sophism mus lwys sifle youroservive isi s

do udersd how my bd effes follow from he

g of perso suh s yourself oe of he elders of he pridig rgumes for he wors eemies of order

eeve me we shou ld sop hi s bd hbi of subb li g

og ourselves es i publi les ll uie o defed

or i siuos whih beuse of he wikedess of he imesre reevig some bru l blows d o look fer ouredgered ieress

PROSPERO: es uie, by ll mes bu if some srog

mesures re o ke, if you do sop usig liberl dores we will o resolve yhig

A M B R O G I O : Oh Yes, eri ly We eed severe lws o sily pplied

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Bu i i o ough orc lo co kp popl u

jcd for log priculrly i hi dy d g I i ecery o oppo propgd ih propgd hr i d o prud popl h r righ.

PROSPERO You rly r kiddig yourlf! My poo

frid i our commo ir, bg you b crful of pro gd I i ubvriv uff v if i i crrd ou by co

rviv; d your propgd ould ly ur o he

dvg of ocili , rch i or h vr l hy c

hmlv

o d prud omo h i hugry h i i ju h

hy do h mor o h i hy ho produc he

food! So log hy do hik bou i d coiu obl od d h bo for h il hy rciv i l

righ Bu from h mom hy r o rflc o hi r po

io i ovr hy ill bcom my ih hom you i

vr b rcocld No o your lif! W mu void prop

gd ll co ifl h priig pr ih or ihou

or prhp v gi h l

AMBROIO Th righ h righ

P R O S P E R 0 : Prv ll mig d iml ll oci

io d o ji ll ho ho hik

C E S A R E o ] Ey y do pio

p you y Rmmbr h ohr govrm i

mor fvourbl im dopd h mur h you r

uggig d i prcipid hi r o dofll

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AMROGO Huh huh! Here ome Mhee h nrh hom I eeed yer o x mh j for u bverve mfeo. Auy beee oureve he m

feo doe uh y h he oud ouh

bu h you do? The r m eo here

d fer oey mu be defeded!

M I H E L E : Good eveg Geeme. My rodue you rh fred of me ho h epe h h

ege hro do he oher eveg by Sgor. Prope

P R O S P E R : u h hege h hege?! We

ere oy hvg d uo mog fred o p he

me

Hoever you ere expg o u h rhm

hh omehg e hve ever bee be o uderd

GIORGIO [ I m o eher of rhm

d I hve o ome o gve oure o he ubje bu I

he eeded, defed my de. ede here

geem here (referrg o he mgre Ambrogo

ro oe ho ough o ko more bou h I He h

oemed my peope for rhm; d e he for

ery m of oee he oud o h ve do e o

hou fr of mkg profou udy of h rgume

voved

E S A R ome ome e o ge peo . d e

e mu pek of rhm e r o he ubje mm

dey

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Y o reoge h hg r gog bdy d

t de eed o be foud. u e do eed o uop d bove e mu vod voee

y he goverme houd ke he orker ue

o h houd provde ork for he uempoyed;

o dure eourge ommere u

RGIO Ho my hg you oud ke h poor gov o do! u he goverme doe o o beome

red for he ere of he orker d uderbe

SAR : Ho be uderdbe? Up o o re

y goverme h ho k of py d perhp e dee o emedy he of he oury bu omor

gheed d oeou mer mgh do hh bee doe up o o.

GORGO: No my der r o queo of oe my or ohe. queo of goverme geer; of

goverme hoe of ody ke hoe of yeerdy d

h of omorro The goverme eme from propreor eed he uppor of propreor o u ef

member re hemeve propreor; ho hereforeerve he ee of orker?

Onhe other hand the government, even if it wanted to,coud notresove the socia questio n becauseth is is the prod utofgeneralfactors, that cannot be removed bya governmentandwh ic h in fact themselvesdetermine the natureandthe di rection of government. In order to resolve the socia

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quesio we us rdiclly chge he whole syse

he govere hs he ppoied issio of defedig

ou lk bou givig wor o he ueployed u wh c

he govere do if here is o work? Mus i ke people

do useless work d he who would py hem? houd

ger producio o provide for he usisfied eeds of hepeople? u, he, he proprieors would fid heselve

uble o sell he producs which hey exproprie from

workers, s er of fc hey would hve o cese o beproprieors, s ice, he govere i order o provide wor

for he people would e wy fro he he ld d he

cpil which hey hve oopolised

This w ould be socl revoluio, he liqu idio of ll of he

ps, d you well kow h if hi s is o crried ou by heworkers pess d he uderprivileged, he govere

will cery ever do i

Proec idusry d coerce you sy: bu he govereis ble he os o fvour oe idusril clss o he deri

e of oher, o fvour he rders of oe regio he

expese of hose of oher, d so, i ol ohig would

be gied, oly bi of fvouriis, bi of ijusice dore uproducive expediure As fr s govere

wh ic h proecs ll , i is bsurd ide becuse goveresdo o produce yhig d herefore c oly rsfer he

welh produced by ohers

E S A R E u wh he? f he govere does o wd is o be, o do yhig wh reedy is here? Eve

if you ke he revoluio you wil eed o cree oher

et;andsinceyou saythatall governmentsare the

:er the revoutio everythi g wi l l be the sesfe

RGO ou woud be righ if our revouio produced

py chge of govere u we w he coplee

rio of he propery regie, of he syse of pro

cio d exchge; d s fr s he govere is co eed useess hrful d prsic org, we do oe We believe h wh i le here is govere

oher words body sup eri posed o sociey, d provid wh he es o ipose forcibly is ow will, here wil o be rel ecipio, here will be o pece ogppe

o ow h rchis d rchy es sociey whou govere

E ARE u wh do you e? A sociey wihou govere ow would you be ble o live? Who would ke hew? Who would execue i?

GORGIO I see h you do hve y ide of wh wew order o void ie wsig digressios you us

ow e o expl i, briefly, bu ehodicl ly our pr

gre d he we c discus s ers o our uul beef.

ow i is le; we will coiue ex ie

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THREE

S A R E So tonght you wll expln how we cn l e

out goernment?

G I O R G I O : I wll do my best

some consderton to how thngs re n socety s t s

whether t s relly necessry to chnge ts composton.

Lookng t the soce n whch we le the frst phenomen

tht strke us re the poerty tht fflcts the msses the

uncertnt of tomorrow whch more or less weghs o

eerybody the relentless struggle of eerybody fghtng

eerybody n order to conquer hunger

AM B R0G 0: But m y der sr you could g o o n tlkng for

some tme bout these socl els unfortuntely, therereplent of exmples lble But ths does not sere ny

purpose nd t doesnt demonstrte tht we would be better

off by mkng eerythng topsytur Its not only poert

tht lcts humnty there re lso plgues choler erth

qukes . nd t would be odd f you wshed to d rect the re

oluton gnst these courges.

El s n the nture of thngs

26

ORGO But n fct I wnt to demonstrte you tht

er depends on the present mode of socl orgnston

d tht n more egltrn nd rtonlly orgnsed so

t ust dspper

Whe we do not know the cuses of n el nd we don't

he soutons well there s not much we cn do bout t;ut s son s the soluton s found t becomes eerybodysoern nd duty to put t nto prctce

RO G I O Here s your mstke poerty results from

uses superor to humn wll nd humn lw Poer

results from the menness of nture whch does not supplyuent products to meet humn desres

He look t nmls where you cnnot blme cptlst

m nor oene they must fght for foodd ofen de of hunger

When the cupbords bre the cupbords bre The truth

s tht there re too mny people n the world If peoplewere ble to control themseles nd dd not he chldren

uless they could mntn them . He you red Mlthus?


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or ignorant and dont want or dont know how to deveo

industries the landowners dont know how to break wt

their grandathers methods and dont want to be botered

raders dont know how to ind new outlets and the gover

ment with its isca poicy and its stupid custom poicy

instead o encouraging private initiatives obstructs and suocates them in their inancy Have a look at France

England and Germany

G IO RG IO: That our bourgeoisie is indolent and ignorat I

dont doubt, but its inerioriy ony suppies the expanation

or why it is beaten by the bourgeoisie o other countries in

the struggle to conquer the world market it does not in ay

way supply the reason or peope's povery And the clearevidence is that poverty the lack o work and all the rest o

the socia evis eist in countres where the bourgeoisie is

more active and more inteigent as much as they do in Italy

actually those evis are generally more intense in countrie

where industry is more deveoped unless the workers have

been able through organsation resistance or rebellion to

acquire bet ter iving conditions.

Capitalism is the same everywhere In order to survive andprosper it needs a permanent situation o partia scarcity it

needs it to maintain its prices and to create hungry masses

to work under any conditions

You see in act, when production is in ul swing in a coun

try it is never to give producers the means to increase con

sumption but aways or saes to an external market I the

domestic consumption increases it occurs only wen te

workers have been abe to proit rom these circumstances to

demand an increase in their wages and as a consequence

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have been enabled to buy more goods. But then, whe one reason or another the external market for whichproduce does not buy anymore, crisis comes, workwages decine and dire povery begins to causeagain. And yet in this same country where the great

ity acks everythng it woud be so much more rp",n.to work for their own consumption! But then, what woudcapitaists gain out of that

AMBR OG I0: So you think it is al e fault ofcaITlsn9

GORGO: Yes of course; or more generay it's due tofact that a few individuals have hoaded the and and ainstruments of production and can impose their will onworkers, in such a fashion that instead of producing to satif peopes needs and with these needs in view productiis geared towards making a profit for the employers

Al the justifications you think up to preserve bourgeois pi ieges are completely erroneous or so many lies A lilewhie ago you were saying hat the cause of poverty is thescarci of products On another occasion confronting the

probems of the unemployed you woud have said that hewarehouses are full that the goods cannot be sod and thatthe proprietors cannot create employment in order to throwgoods away

In fact ths ypifies the absurdiy of the system we die ofhunger because the warehouses are full and there is no needto cutivate and or rather the andowners dont need theiland cultivated shoemakers dont work and thus wak aboutin worn out shoes because there are too many shoes . andso it goes .

32

So it is the capitalists who shoud die of

AMBROGIO:

hunger?

RGO:Oh! Certainy not They should simply

work

k body else It might seem harsh to you, but you

Ii e every

't uderstand: whenone eats well work is no longer

. t ' I canshowyouinfactyouthat itis aneedandmrea eg

afilmet of humannature.Butbefair, tomorrowIhaveto

tworkand it is aready veryate.

Untilnext time.

33


19/80

FOUR

C E S A R E: I l ike arg u in g wth you You have a certainof put ing th ings that make s you appear correct . aindeed, I am not saying that you are completely in thwrong

There are certainly some absurdities real or appa rent in th

present social order For example I find it diicult to undr

stand the customs policy While here people are dying ohunger or associated diseases becase they lack sufficiet

bread of good qual ity the government mae s it d ifficult

im port grain from America where they have more than th

need and would like nothing better than to sell it to us. It

like being hungry but not ishing to eat!

However

GIORGIO: Yes indeed but the government is not hungry;

and neither are the large wheat growers of Italy in whos

i nterests the government places the duty on wheat If those

who are hungry were free to act you would see that they

would not reect the wheat

C E S A RE I know that and I understad that with these sorts

of arguments you make the common people who only see

34

broad erms and from one point of view disaect e. t in order to avoid mistakes we must look at all des

t qestion , as I was on the point of doing when you

rrupted me

It i true that the proprietors interests greatly inuence thesition of an imrt tax But on the other hand if there

open entry the Americans who can produce wheatd meat in more favourable conditons than ours would

e up spplyi ng he whole of our market and what wouldu r rmers do then? The proprietors would be ruined but

e workers would fare even worse Bread would sell for

all amounts of money But if there was no way of earning

t money you would still die of hunger And then the

Americans whether the goods are dear or cheap want to

et id and if in Italy we don't produce with what are weig to pay?

You cou ld say to me that in Italy we could cultivate those

products suited to our soil and climate and then exchange

em abroad wine for instance oranges flowers and the

lie Bt what if the things hat we are capable of producing

o favourable terms are not wanted by others eitherbecause they have no use for them or because they producethm themselves? Not to mention that to change the produc

35


20/80

o rege you eed cpil, koledge d bove

ie h old e e i he eie?

IORIO PerFec You hve pu your Figer o i

rde co olve he q uei o of pover y ore h

proecioi ree rde i good For couer d hrhe producer, d vice ver, proecioi i good For e

proeced producer bu doe hr o couer d e

orker re he e ie boh couer d prod

er, i he ed i i ly he e ig

Ad i ill ly be he e uil he cpli ye i

bolihed

If orker orked For heelve d o for he oer

profi, he ech coury ould be ble o produce ufi

cie For i o eed, d hey ould oly hve o coeo greee ih oher courie o diribue prucve

ork ccordig o he oil quliy clie, he vilbili f

reource he icl iio of he i h b ec i order hll e hould ejoy he be of everyhg ih he iiu

poible eor

C E S A R E : Ye, bu hee re oIy pipe dre

I O R I O hey y be dre ody bu he he peo

ple hve uderood ho hey could iprove lfe, he dre

ould oo be rfored io reliy he oly ublg

block re he egoi of oe d he igorce of oher

C E S A R E : here re oher obcle, y fried. You hi k

h oce he proprieor re hro ou you ould lloi gold .

G O Th t i ot wht I' y g . Othe cotrry, I

R h h rcometh

coditioofcrc w C cp-

ink ove . I I. t ' uS d torge produco rgey to

01,

k b.

f h d ofll you eed to do lotofwor ; utt

e ee ,

hh lI i g e towork tht pe

ople lck, it i t eis eve e

bil.Werecompliigboutthe

pree

.

tytem ot

h b cue we hve to it oe dler eve c e

h h thcertilydoe ot plee u S - b ut, becue t Sg

f k'eeidler tht regulte work

d prevet u ro wor g

good codit iod produ c i gbudce forll

CE SARE : You exggere is rue h ofe proprieors

'employ people i order o specule ohescrcy of

rducs bu more ofe s becuse heyhem selves lck

pi

d d r erl re o eough for produco. You

ed, you ko ool, chiery, preie he e

py he orker h l e hey ork, i ord c pi l; d

h oly ccuule loly Ho y veure fl o ge

ff he groud, or, hvig go off he groud, fil due

orge of cpl! C you igie he effec he if, yo deire, ocil revoluo ce bou? Wih hedercio of cpil, d he gre diorder h ould fol

lo , geerl ipoverihe ould reul

GIO RGO: This is another error, oranother lie from the

defenders of thepresentorder: theshortageofcapital

Capital maybe acking n this orthat undertaking because

it has been cornered byothers; but i f we take socieyasa

wole, you' l l fnd that ther

e i s a great quantty of i nactive

capital, j ustas there i s a great quantiyof uncult vatedl and .

37


21/80

Don' you see ho many machines are rusing ho

facores reman closed ho many houses here are

enans

here is a need for food o noursh orkers hile hey

bu raly orkers mus ea even f hey are une

hey ea lle and badly bu hey reman ave andready o ork as soon as an employer ha s need of hem. So

i is no because here s a lack of he means of subssence

ha orkers don ork; and f hey could ork on he ir on

accoun hey ould adap hemselves, here as realy

necessary o ork h le l ivn g j us as hey do hen hey are

unemployed, because hey ould kno ha h hs emp

rary sacrfce hey could hen finally escape from he social

condon o f povery and subj econ

Imagine, and his s somehing ha as been nesed

many mes ha an earhquake desroys a ciy ruinng an

enre d src. I n a l ile ime e cy is reconsruced n a for

more beauful han before and no a race of he dsase

remans. Because in such a case i is n he ineress of pr

preors and capialss o employ peope he means are

quckly found and in he link of an eye an enire cy i sreconsruced here efore hey had connualy assered

ha hey lacked he means o build a fe "orkers houses

As far as he desrucon of capial ha ould ake place a

he ime of he revouion i is o e hoped ha as par of a

conscous movemen ha has as is aim he common oner

ship of social ealh he people ould no an o desroy

ha s o become heir on n any case i ould no be asbad a s an earhquake

N_erewl certa nlybedffcultiesbeforethi ng s workou

t

ebest; but, I can only see woseriousobstaces

whch

be overcome before we can beg i n : peoples lack of

nciousnessand .. thecarabiniei.

R O IO Bu ell me a le more you alk of capial

ork producon consumpion ec. bu you never alk of hs usice moras and religion?

he ssues of ho o bes uilise land and capial are veryoran bu more imporan sill are he moral quesions I

aso oud like everybody o live ell, bu if n order o

rch his uopia e have o volae moral las f e have

repudiae he eernal princples of righ upon hich every

cv socey should be founded hen I ould infiniely prefer ha he sufferings of oday en on forever

Ad then, ju st th ink that there mu st als o be a supreme

that regula tes the orld The orld did not come i nto

en g on its on and there mu st besomething beyond t-

I am notsayingGod Paradise,Hel l becauseyouwouldbe

qitecapableof not beli evin g n them - there mu st besome

hngbeyondthi s orld that expla i n s everythi ng andhere

one finds compensaton for the apparent n j u stces don

here.

Doyouthi n k you can vioate thi s prestabli shed harmonyof

theuniverse?You are notable todoso.Wecannotdoother

thanyieldtoit.

or once sop incii ng he msses sop givin g r ise o fanciful

hopes in he souls of he leas forunae sop bloing on he

fre ha is unforunaely smoulderng beneah he ashes

39


22/80

Wd you or other odern barbrian, wih to detroy in rible ocial catacly the civilization tht is the glory of

or cestors and ourselves? f you want to do oething

hwhile if you wnt to relieve s uch a posible the

ueig of the poor, tell the to esign theelves to their because true happines lies in being contented After

everyone carries their own cro; every cls has it own

ibulaion nd duties, and it is not always those who live

g riche that are the ost happy

OGO Coe y der gistrate leave aide the

ecaations about "grand principles nd the conventional

idigaion we are not in court here and for the oent,

you o not hve to pronounce any sentece on e

w woud one gues fro hearing you tlk, that you re

one of the underprivileged! Ad how ueful i the reig

ion of the poor for those who ive off the

it of all beg you leave aide the trancendental and reigius aguents in which even you dont believe Of ys

eries of the Univere I know nothing, and you know no

re so it is pontless to bing te into the dcusion For

he et be ware that the belief in a supree aker, in Godthe creor nd father of hunity would not be a secureweapon for you f the priests who have lways been andeain in the ervice of the wealthy deduce fro it that it s

he duty of the poor to resgn theselve to their fte other

cn deduce (and in the coure of hitory have o deduced)he right to justice and equliy f God is our coon fatherthe we are all related God cannot want oe of his chil


23/80

den o exo and marr he ohers; and e rch hewoud bes any Cans cursed b he Father

Bu le's dro

AMROGIO: Well hen, es orge abou relgon if

wsh sn so uc o would b oness o ou. Bu woud acknoedge rgs orals a sueror jusce

GRGO Usen: s rue ha rgs usce and

ma requre and sancon oresson and unappeven o on one huan eng I would edae sa

you ha rgs usce and oras are n les

weaons forged o deend he rveged and such e

wen he ean ha ou mean b he.

Rghs usice oras soud a a he axum poss

good or al or ese he are snons or arrogan eav

our and nusce And s ceran rue ha hs conc

on o he answers 10 he necesses o exsence and tedeveoen o huan soca cooeraon ha has orm

and erssed n he huan conscence and connua gas

n srengh n se o a he ooson rom hose o u

o now have donaed e orld You ourse coud no

deend oher han h u sos he resen soca

nsuons w our nerreaon o absrac rnces of

moral and usce

AMROGO ou reay are ver presuuous t s no

enough o den as sees o e you do he rgh o ro

er bu ou anan a we are ncaae o deendng

h our own rnces

42

! ou s I wdemonsrae o

Yes precse Y

y e me

43


24/80

FIVE

GIOGO:WelJ then,mydearagistrate ifIanottakenwewere talngaouttherght toproper.

AMBOGO need arealycurioustohearhowyowould defend, n he naeo usice an oals youprposalsfordespoliatonandrobbery

A soce in whch no-ne is secue n hei ossesonwould no longe be a socie bu a hode owildbeas .ready toevour eachother

GORGIO Doesn't itseetoyou hat this spreciselythecasewithtoday sociey?

Youaeaccusingusoesolaionanobbey;buon Iheconay, isn' i he oieos

who connually esol hewokes an ob heo he uts o he labou?

MBROGIO Proprietors use their goos n ways thebelieve fo hebes, andheyhave heigh doso inhesameway hewoeseelydsoseoheaouOwneandwoesconaceelyoheiceowoanwhenheconacisesecednoone cancopain

Cha can elieve acue oubles unee oubles bughsusemainunouchable

4

k g o a ree contract! TheB t ou are spec InIRGO: u Yt t andsberre5em d snotworkcanno e ,rkew 0 oe

ed b teves whogives ue ha ofa traveler, assI. Y.

f earo osngS "FehSprse r

nnot use this tonegateMBROGIO: All rigt; but you c,

tas tey' e o therroere rgt of eac person to Spe f.

, r ry But oesn tisIRGO: Their proper, ther p ope

be 10caim Ih I nowners are aome about because I e . I catastsareable' s tersn eand n Its pro ucea

b anotercatl' ns0 a ourtclaimas he'rs t e Ostrume

reoted byhumanactivi?

therrgt to tAMBROGIO: The lwrecognizes

} ten even a streetGORGIO: Ah! f it is only t e w,d rob he h to assassinate n to

.assassin could cam t e g, I f w tat rmuate a ew arces 0wod ony have to 0

h h d thssprecselyd h is On te ot er n recognse t ese ig ,I" he. "t as createdwhat Ihe ominant ss has accomps

h

,Idyer

e- fons that It as a rews to egitmize t e usurpa I

f roraonsraed, anhasme themameans0 new ap

5


25/80

d pon


26/80

of hi dcndan h rgh o v n dln on hof workr?

Do m ju o you ha, bcau hr ha bn aaboro u and h rf m n - I ay h o br ng ou your

ha h accumuad o capa h gra mashumany mu b condmnd o prpa por andaon

And on h ohr hand n f omon had workdhml wh hr muc and hr branxpong anybody; n f agan all h odd uch ahad bn ab o produc much mor han hywhou h dc or nd rc coopraon of h oc aswhol do no an bcau of h ha hy houdauhrd o do har o ohr o ak away froh man of nc. If omon bul a road aonghor hy coud no bcau of h argu for a rghdny h acc of ohr o h a If omon coudand cua on h own a h ol of a pronccould no pum bcau of h o a a han of ha pronc If omon had crad om n

and powful man of producon hy would no ha thrgh o u hr nnon n uch a way a o ubc pp o hr ru and n of bquahng o h coun uccon of hr dcndan h rgh o domnatand plo fuur gnraon

Bu I a m ong y way o uppo fo a momn ha propor ar wokr or h dc ndan of workr! Woud you

k m o you h orgn of h wah of all h gntln n our communy boh of noblmn of ancn ock aw a h nouveax rches?

48

hay ' av ad pon

AMBRG O No no 1 c

01 r d b doubu a n h ch acur Y ThI " a o d y h r gh o propr

d aon o n bd o proV a f d g up od pro . t pa and no u

u 0

S h bu rd f ha

wha yOUG R : \ a d no poran n d d u

af a concrn I , ht r a ch bcau a

d b bo hd no o u hoperty hou a b an a uc d b or unae acu Y or d h an o po h an h gh an cau gr away nd u p a of ohr and dopm

n W

fw

f dpn dn on aw

h ga a 0 pop y ndvdua andd propt by h way how ca n yo \S" v ha hh f savlng s IOU ca nty wth you ry f

h or or of h rd f h wo propwas produce om e

cestos?

d r a nd ha noO O You n cu a

' yd an d nau ca a value. People occupy It, re

h d ' ha bn prh wh c wou nllyhavea rig to Its crop ,ucd whou hr wo on h a nd

h of h wor o hOO gh h h g h n h cab h rgh ca w uiofhISown labour ; ud D u h n o?stocultivate the lan , on y

o or po rrNow, how is t that the pres

en p Pk ha nr

h hy do no wr res often i mense, tat

hr wor?f do no a ow 0worked and most requen Y

49

How s ha lands h h


27/80

s ha lands ha hae neer been caed aeaely owned? Wht s Ihe work wha s h ewh ch may ha g ven a dae o orgn n h cae, oerty rght

g n of privae property, s o lence. And you cannofy s/y f yo don' t accep h e prncpe haeqa ls force and n haI cae heaven he lp yo oneyo become the most eneebled

AM B R O G O : B n sh or yo loe Sgh o oc al uhe n heren necesty o c cety Who Ihe ghproper y here od be no secry no more orderyan d socey would dssole n ch ao

G l O R G I0; Wha ! Now yo a o soca uy B n o r eer converatons ony conc erned mysel whdamage prodced by prae prperty yo caed meo argumens abo abs rac rghEn ogh or h s eenng EXcse me bu hae o go Wego n o t an oher me

50


28/80

S I X

G I O R G O : Well, ha ve you heard what has tpemSomeone told a newspaper about the conversation tathad last time and for hav ing pubished t the neSDaClhas been gagged

A M B R O G O : Ah !

G I O R G O : Of course, it goes without sayng youknow a nyth in g . ! I don't nde rstan d how you ca n c la im be so confident of your id eas when you ar e so a frai d ofpub ic hear ing some disc ussio n of them. T he paper f areported both your arguments a nd mine You ough t tha ppy that the p ub i c is ab le to appreci ate the rat ona lupon which the prese nt socal cons titu tion rests andj ustice

to the futile cri tic sms of i t s a dversaries 'nsteadshut people up, you silence them

AMBROGO I am not involved at all; belong to the dcial magistracy and not to the public ministry.

G O R G O : Yes now! But you are coleagues al thesame and the same spirit animates you al.

f my chatter annoys u tell me an d wl l go a nd chatersomewhere else

52

BR OG O No no on the contrary - confess that amrested Let's continue as regards the restrainng order Iwill, if you like put in a good word with the Publicsecutor. After a with the aw as t is no one is deniede right to di scussion

RGO ets continue, then ast time if rememberghty in defending the right to propery you took as the

resent basis positive aw n other words the civi code then

sense of ustce then soca utli Permt me to sum up n w words my ideas with respect to al this

rom my point of view individual propery is un ust andmmoral because it is founded either on open vioence on

ud or on the ega exploitation of the abour of others

an it is harmful because it hinders production and preventsthe needs of al being satisfied by what can be obtainedfrom land an d abour because it creates poverty for themasses and generates hatred crmes and most of the evistat affict modern socey

For these reasons would like to aboish it and substitute aropery regime based on common ownership in which all

eople contributing their just amount of labour will receivee maximu m possi be evel of webein g

53


29/80

AM BROG IO : ealy, 1 can' see ih hat ogi ou

arrved a commn property. You ve ough agains

ery because accrding you i derives ro vioencefro he exploitaion o he abur oers; ou have

a capiaiss reguae produion wth n ee o heir

is and n e beer ais he pubc need hleas possib e efr of he rkers u have de nied e

obin revenue ro and ic one has n

onesel t derive a pri fr ones n one r o

ineres by nveing in e nsrucon o houses and

oer in dusries bu u ave hever, recn is ed he

o orers he prducs o eir on abour, acua

have capioned i s a consequence accordng o

giC on ese criera you can caenge he verificaonhe ies o prper a nd deand he aoiin of inerest

ne and prvae incoe ou ay even as r e

dain he presen socie and he d vs n o and nd

nruens of abour an se h ih o use e

bu ou cann a f counis Individua onersi p

he producs o nes abur ust as exis and, if youan your eancipaed rer o have a securiy in h

uure ihou hich no r i be dne hic des noproduce an iedae pro ou u ecognie individua

onersip o he and and e insruens of produon t

he exen e are used

GIOG Exceen pease continue e coud sa ta

even ou are arred ih e pich of sciais. u are o a

socais scho difren ro ine bu i s i sociais. A

socais agisrae is n ineresin phenenon

54


30/80

h a h e


31/80

a I strength etween one pron and anoher Now,

hes dvs ions rvalry nd tuggle woud naturall aris:

bes land the bes impeents and the es stes would

he stongest, h ost ntegen or he mos

Hene the e ara eans beng in the hand o

ost gd peope h would qucl ind thselv iposiion upeo o othes, and staring fro hese

advanag woud easy grow n ngh thu COlmerng a new pocess of epotaion and epropriatin ofwea whch woud lead to the reonsttuton of a

societ.

AMBRO o reUy serousy yo ae a

ou wnt laws ha woud dlare he share of eah nual to e n onanserable and woud s urround the wea

seou legal aante

GRO h ou alwas hn ha one an e

anthng wth aws_

ou e not a agstrat or nohin

aw are ad and unmade to pease the ronges

Those who are a ie stonger han he aage vola

hem those wo a very muh stronger epeal the, an

mke othe to u he ntee

MBRGI nd o?

OG ell then, v aready od ou, i is nesar

t substtute ageeen and soidari r sugge aong

pepe and o ahieve his neesary rst of all to abol

is h ndvdul pper

d be no poems wha h e

O But tere wou

h_\ bl Everythng belong s to

everybody, w oev-va a e_

k d LO dosn't a n ae ove; eat,n wo an Wl dwas t Ch a and o Pe n!

hat a goo

c e ery w at

.What a autu adh ouse Ha Ha Ha

( - e ung by want- O Consde

ng th Igure you a - _ d f of a soet t

ha t t

ae a aona e ene

h"g mf I dont rea y thnk

tha t you have u il wth rute ore,

agh aout

B seem o h ved. I m a omun s u

youY y goo S r

f Next te Iw ty nd

$0stange noons a omun

.make yo undersand or noW

, good eveng.

S EV EN


32/80

S EV EN

A M B ROG IO: We then would you ike to expn

what this communism of yous is al about

G IO RG O With pleasure.

Communism i a method of socia organisation inpeopleinsteadoffighting amongthemsevestomn natura advantagesandaternativelexploitinganding each other ashappen

s intoday'ssociey woudateandagree tocooperatein the bestinterest ofa.from the princpe that the land, he mines and aforces belong to everybody, and that al the r lI ,1 weathandacquisitionsofpreviousgenerationsasoto everybody peope in communism woud wnttcooperativel toproduce al thatisnecessary.

A M B RO G I O : J understand. You wnt, as was stanews-sheet that came to hand during an anarchist ial,ech person fo produce accordng ther abasumeccordng to ther needs; or or ech to gvea ndfakewhtthey need. Isn'tthat so?

G O RG IO : In fact these are pinciples that wrepeat;butfo them to represent correctly ouconcEmtiOwhat a communist sociey woud be ike it is nAA!S

60

stand what is meant. It s not, obviously about n

te right to satsfy a of one's needs because needs

nfinite, growing more rapidly than the means to satisfy

and so their satisfaction is always limited by produc-

paciy; nor would it be useful or just that the commu

in order to satisfy excessive needs otherwise called

ofa few individuals should undertake work out of

1rti,.n tothe utility being produced. Nor are we talkingemploying a of one's strength in producing things,

tken literally this would meanworking until one is

Iusted , which would mean that by maximsing the satsof human needs we destroy humanty

e wouldlike is for everybody t ive in the best pos

ay: so that everybody with a minimum amount of

ll obtain maximum satisfaction. I don't know how to

ou a theoretical formula which correctly depicts sucht of affairs but when we get rid of the social envron

of theboss and the police, and people consider eachas family, and think of helping instead of exploiting

another, thepractica formula for social l ife will soonben any case, we will make the most of what we know

hat e can do, providing for pecebypiece modificaas elearn to do thingsbeter

61


33/80


34/80

undersandng of her neress don bear each oher


35/80

undersandng of her neress don bear ac o r

bu an o ge on and o pracce muual ad Bu h

far from seemng an mpossbly s even no nomal

common The presen socal organsaon s a

cause of anagonsm and conflc beeen classe and

vduals and f despe hs soce s sll able o

self and doesn lerally degenerae no a pack ofdevourng each oher s precsely because of he

hu man nsnc for socey ha produces he housan a

soda ry of sympahy of devoon of sacr fce ha ae

red ou every momen hou hem even beng

abou ha makes possble he connuance of

nohsandng he causes of dsnegraon ha

hn self.

Human bengs ae by naure boh egosc and alruhCbologcay predeermned I ould say pror o oe

humans had no been egosc f ha s o sy hey ha

had he nsnc of selfpreservaon hey could no

exsed as ndvduals and f hey hadn' been arus

oher ords f hey hadn had he nsnc of sacrFc

selves for ohers he frs manfesaon of hch o f

he love of ones chldren hey could no have exse

speces nor mos probably have developed a soca

The coesence of he egosc and he alrusc

and he mpossbl n exsng soce of sasfn

ensures ha oday no one s sasfed no even hos

are n prvleged posons On he oher hand communs

he socal form n hch egosm and alrusm mn g

every person ll accep because benefs everybo

66

AMBROGO t b b t d hn th ll l b f t t h h


36/80

AMBROGO: t may be as you say: but do you hn

everybody would want an d would kow ow to aaselves o he dutes tat a communst socety mposes, nstance, people do not wat to work? Of course, yoan answer for everyg n teory, as best suts yomet, and you wll tel me tat work s an orga neepleasure, ad tat everybody wll compete to have asas possble of such a pleasure!

G l O R G 1 0 : am not sayng tat, although know woud fnd tat many of my freds who woud say sAccordg to me wat s a orgac eed and a pleasemovemet, ervous and muscular actvty; but work s cpled acvty ame at an obectve goal, exteral

organsm. And well understad ow t s tat one mafer horserdng we, nstead t s neessary to plantbages But, I beleve tat uma begs, we tey ave

en d vew, can adapt and do adapt to te condtos neessary o aceve t

Since e products tat one obtans through work aesary or survval, and since nobody wll have te meas

force oters to wok for tem everyone wll recogsenecessty of workng and wll favour tat structure wwork wll be less rg and more productve, and tat smy vew, a commust organsato

Cosider aso hat comm uns m these same workersse ad rect wok ad terefore ave every ntees in

makg t ght and ejoyable; consder tat n co

here wll naturally develop a publc vew tat wll rOlmJI'

dleess as damagng to all, ad f tere wll be

68

aers, they wll oly be an nsgfcat mnorty whchud be toerated wthout any perceptble harm

B RO G O : But suppose that n spite of your op

stc forecasts tere soud be a great umber of loafeswhat would you do? Would you support them? f so, theou mght as well support tose wom you call the bou

eose

ORGO: uly tere s a great dfference; because thebourgeos ot oy take part of wat we produce, but heyevent us from producng wat we wat ad how we wato produce t Noetheless am by o means sayng that wesould mantan ders, whe tey are n such numbes as to

use amage: am very afrad that dleess ad the habt vg off oters may lead to a desre to commadommusm s a fee agreemet wo doesn' accept t oanta t remans outsde of t

B ROG 1 0 : But te tere wll be a ew uderpvlegedass?

OR G 1 0 : Not at al Everyone has the rgh to land, toe nstrumets of producton and all te advantages thatn bengs can enoy n e state of cvlzaton that

mty has reaced If someoe does not wat to accept ommuns lfe ad te oblgatio tat t supposes, t s theUsness They ad tose of a lke md wll come to areemet and f tey fnd temseves a wose state thae ohers ts wl prove to them te superorty of commu

s ad wll mpel tem to unte wth te commusts

69

h f l b f l d d o he re tacethat you offer If yo


37/80

AMBROIO So herefore oe l be free o cou?

I O R I O : era ly ad hoever , ll haeae rgh a he cou over he aural eah

accuulaed produc of prevou geerao. orake ! ! I have aay poke of free agree e, of free

u Ho could here be lbery hou a pobeave?

AMBROIO So you do a o poe your

h force?

I O R I O Oh! Are you crazy? Do you ake u for

e or agrae?

A M B R O I O Well here ohg rog he

free o purue her d rea

O R I Be careful o o ake a bluder o

dea oe h g o defed oe elf fro hee a

lece, ad rega oe rgh oehg ele

AM B RO I O Ah! Ah! So o ea ur rgs you

ue force ha rgh?

IORIO To h I o gve you a aer

ueful o you pug ogeher a bll of dce

ral Wha I l ell you ha ceraly, he heha ve becoe cocou of her rgh ad a pu

ed o you ll ru he rk of beg reaed raher

Buth wl depedohe retace thatyouoffer Ify

/.hgood ll everyh g l be pea

cefu ada m-ge up Wi ' b. f o he corary you are pgh

eaded ad I m urea , I

.' 1 1 be much he ore for you o e

veg. you W

E I G H T


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E I G H T

AMBROGIO You know! The more I think about your

communism he more I am persuaded that you are . . .0

original.

G IO RG IO And why is that?

A M B ROG IO: Because you always talk about work

ment accords agreements but you never talk oauthoriy of government Who wil regulate social lie?

wll be the government? How will it be constituted? Who

elect it? By what means will it ensure that laws are

ed and ofenders punished? How will the various power

constituted legislative, executive or judicial?

G lO RG 1 0 We dont know what to do with a these

ers of your We don't want a government Are you

aware that I am an anarchist?

A M BO G IO Well Ive told you that you are an

I could still understand communism and admit that t

be able to oer great advantages f everything were

still regulated by an enlightened government whch h

trength to make everybody have a respect for the l

like ths without government without law What kind

muddle would there be?

72

G IO I had foreseen this first you were against com

mus because you sad that it needed a strong and cen

tlse government; now hat you have heard talk of a soc

ithout government you would even accept communism

$ og as there was a government with an iron fist In short

it lberty which scares you most of all

ROGI 0 : But this s t jumpoutof the frying paninto

ire! What is certain is that a socety without a govern

cannot exist. How would you expect things to work

rules, without regulations of any kind? What will

isthat someonewill steertothe right somebody else

eleft and theship will remain stationary, ormorelkely

the bottom.

RGI 0 : I did not saythat I do not want rules and reg

o. I said toyou that I don'twant a Govenen, and

bgernment I mean a power that makes lawsandimpos

themoneverybody.

RO G IO But if thisgovernment iselected bythepeo

peoesnt itrepresent the will of thosesamepeople?What

Cdyoucomplain about?

73

G I O R G I O h l A l b t t eaty wll be uled by a maoy of people to whom you


39/80

G I O R G I O hs s smply a e A geeal abstat popula w s o moe tha a metaphysal fay he publ sompsed of people ad people have a thousad d ffeetad vayg wlls aodg to vaatos tempeametad umstaes, ad expetg to extat fom themthough the mag opeato of the ballot box a geeal w llommo to all s sm ply a absud y I t would be mpossbleeve fo a sgle dvdual to etust to somebody else theexeuto of the wl o all the questos that ould asedug a gve peod of tme; beause they themselvesod ot say advae what would be the wll o these

vaous oasos ow ould oe speak fo a olletvypeople whose membes at the vey tme of podug amadate wee aeady dsageemet amog themseves?

Just thk fo a momet at the way eletos ae held adote that I ted speakg about the way they would wok

f all the peope wee eduated ad depedet ad thusthe vote pefetly osous ad fee You fo staewould vote fo whoeve you egad as best suted to seveyo teests ad to appy you deas hs s aleady oedg a lot beause you have so may deas ad so maydffeet teests that you would ot kow how to fd a p eso that thks always lke you o a ssues but wll t bethe to suh a peso that you w gve you vote ad whowll gove you? By o meas You addate m g ht ot besuessful ad so you wll foms o pat of the so alled

popula wl but lets suppose that they do sueed

O ths bass would ths peso be you ule? Not eve you deams hey woud oly be oe amog may the

Itala palamet fo stae oe amog 535 ad you

74

eaty wll be uled by a maoy of people to whom youhave eve gve you madate Ad ths majoty whosemembes have eeved may dfeet o otadtoymadates o bette stl have eeved oly a geea delegato of powe wthout ay spef madate) uabe evef t wated to to aseta a oexstet geeal wll ad

to make eveybody happy w do as t wshes o wl followthe wshes of those who domate t at a patula momet.

Come o ts bette to leave asde ths oldfashoed petee of a govemet that epesets the popula wl l

hee ae etaly some questos of geeal ode, aboutwhh at a gve momet all the people wl agee. Butthe what s the pot of govemet? Whe eveybody

wats somethg they wll oly eed to eat t

A MB R O GI O Well shot you have admtted that thees a eed fo ules some oms fo lvg Who should estalsh them?

G O R G I 0 he teested pates themselves those who

must follow these egulatos

AM BR OG I O Who would mpose obsevae?

GIORGO Nooe beause we ae talkg about omswhh ae feely aepted ad feely followed Do't ofuse the oms of whh I speak that ae patal ovetos based o a feeg of soldaty ad o the ae thateveyoe must have fo the oletve teest wth the law

whh s a ule wte by a few ad mposed wth foe o

eveybody We dot wat laws but fee ageemets.75

M B RO G I 0 nd f soeone iolates the agreeent?


40/80

M B RO G 0 nd f soeone iolates the agreeent?

G IO RG IO nd why should soeone iolate an agre

ent with which they hae has concurred? On the othe

hand if soe iolatons were to take lace they wou

sere as a notificaton that the agreeent does not satisf

eerybody and wll hae to be odified nd eerbowill search for a better arrangeent because t is n eer

bodys nterest that nobody s unhay

M B RO G IO But it sees that you long for a rt

society in whch eeryone is selfsuffcient and the relaton

between eole are few basic and restrcted

G IO RG IO Not at all Snce fro the oent that ocarelatons ultly and becoe ore colex huant

exerences greater ora and ateral satsfaction we

seek relatonshs as nuerous and colex as ossible

M B RO G IO But then you will need to delegate functions

to ge out tasks to nonate reresentates in orer to

establsh agreeents

G IO RG IO Certainly But dont thnk that this s equal

to nonating a goernent. he goernent akes as

and enforces the whle n a free ety delegation o

ower s only for articular teorary tasks for certa

obs and does not gie rights to any authoriy nor any s

cal reward nd the resolutons of the delegates are ala

subject to the aroal of those they reresent

7

AMBOGO But you dot iagi that ryo wil l

fAr all it i udrtood that itituto ar oly worth a

h h l h h d


41/80

alway agr f thr ar o popl that your oial

ord do ot ui t what will you do

GOGO Tho popl will a whatr arrag

t bt uit th ad w ad thy will rah a agr

t to aoid bothrig ah othr

AMBOGO Ad if th othr wat to a troubl

G O G O Th w wil l dfd ourl

AMBOGO Ah! But dot you that fro thi d for

df a w gort i ght ari

GOGO Crtaily I it ad it i prily bau of

hi that alway aid that aarhi i ot poibl util

th ot riou au o oflit ar liiatd a oial

aord r th i trt of all ad t h pi rit of olida rity

i wl dlopd aog huaity

f you wat to rat aarhi today laig itat idiid

ual propry a d th othr oial ititutio that dri fro

it uh a iil war would idiatly bra out that a go rt a yray, would b wlod a a blig

But if at th a ti that you tablih aarhi you abol

ih idiidual propy th au of oflit that wil uri

will ot b iu routabl ad w will rah a ag rt

bau with agrt ryo will b adatagd

uh a th popl that a th uto ad aar

hi i partiular that i th rig of r agrt a

o it if popl do ot udrtad th bit o olidar

i ad dot wat to agr

That i why w gag i pradig propagada.

N I N E


42/80

N I N E

AM B R OG I O : Allow me to reurn to your anarchis com

munism Frankly I cannot put up with it

GIORGIO Ah! I bel ieve you After having l ived your l ife

between codices and books of law in order to defend the

rights of e State and those of the propretors a society

without State and proprietors in which there will no longer

be any rebels and starving people to send to the galleysmust seem to you like something from another world

But if you wish o set aside this attitude if you have the

strength to overcome your habits of mind and wish t reflect

on this matter without bis you would easily understand

that allowing th at the a m of society has to be the greatest

well being for all one necessarily arrives at anarchist com

mun ism as the solution If you think on the contrary tha soci

ety is mde to engross a few pleasure loving individuals atthe expense of the rest wel

A MB RO G I O No no I admit that sociey must have a s a

goal the welbeing of al l , but I canno because of this accept

your system I am trying hard to get inside your pont of

view and since I have tken n interest in the discussion I

would like, at least r myself to have a clear ide of what

you wnt but your c onclusions seem to be so utopian so .

80

G l O R G : But in shor what is it tha you find obscure or

unaccepable in the explanation that I have given you

A M B R O G IO : T he re i s I don't know. he whoe system

Lets leave aside he quesion of righ on which we will not

agree but et us suppose that as you mainain we all have

n equal right enjoy he exising weah I admit that com

mun ism woud seem to be the mos expediious arrangementand perhaps he bes. Bu wha seems to me absoutely

impossible, is a socie wihou government.

You build the whole of your edifice on the free will of the

members of the associaion

G I O R G I O Precisely

A M B R OG

And th is is your error. Sociey means h ierarchy d iscipli ne the subm ission of the individ ual to the colec

ive Without authority no socie is possible.

G I O R G I O Exacy he reverse A society i n h e strict sense

of he word can only exist among equals; and these equals

make agreemens among themseves f in them they find

peasure and convenience bu hey wil l not s ubmit to each

oher

81

hoe eaton of heahy and ubon that to yo

h f l b that to wa ag ant eah othe, to hate eah othe, to epo


43/80

ee the eene of oety, ae elaton beween ae

and ae and you woud adt I hope that the ae

not eally he patne of the ate, ut a a doet an

a no the patne of the on who poee t

AM B R 0 G I 0 But do you tul y belee n a oety n w hheah peon doe what they want

G I O R G I O On ondton t ' undetood that peope want

to e n a oety and theefoe wl adap t theele ta the

neete of oal fe

AMBROGIO And f they dont wh to?

GIORGIO hen oety woud not be pobe But net ony wthn oety that huanty at eat n t oden

fo an atfy t ateal and oa need t a tane

uppoton hat we would wh to enoune what the p

ondton of fe and we beng

Peope hae dffuty n ong to ageeent when they d

u atte n abtat te but a oon a thee oe

thng o do that ut be done and whh of nteet t

eeybody, a ong a no one ha the ean to poe thew on othe and to foe the to do thn g the way bt

nay and tubbonne oon eae they beoe onlat

y and the thng done wth the au pobe atfa

ton to eeyone

ou ut undetan d nothng hua n pobe wthout the

w of huanty. he whoe pobe fo u le n hangn

h wll that to ay t ean ang people undetand

8

eah othe to loe eeythng and peuadng the to

wh fo a oa ode founded on utua uppot and on

odaty.

A M B R O G I O $ to bng about you anaht ou

n you ut wat unt eeybody o peuaded and hathe w l to ak e t wok.

GIORGIO Oh, no We'd be kddng ouee W

otly detened by the oa enonent and t pob

abe that whle the peent ondton lat the geat ao

ty wll ontnue to beee that oety annot be oganzed

n othe way fo what now et

AMB ROG IO Well then?

G I O R G I O $, we w eate oun and anahaong ouee . when w e ae n uffent nu be to do

onned that f othe ee that we ae dong we fo

ouee they wll oon foow u O, at eat f we an

not ahee oun and anh, we wll wo to

hange oa ondton n uh a way a to podue ahange of w n the deed deton

ou ut undetand th about a epoa nteaton

beween the w l and the uoundn g oa ondton . We

ae dong and wll do whatee we an do o that we oetowad ou deal

What you ut leay undetand th We d o not want to

oee the w l of anyone bu t we do not want othe to

8

coerce our will nor that of the publ c We rebel against that

minory which through violence exploits and oppresses the

the sovereign and those whom the sovereign needs to

keep the masses submissive But little by ittle as others


44/80

minory which through violence exploits and oppresses the

people Once liberty is won for ourselves and for all and it

goes without saying the means to be free in other words

the rght to the use of land and of the instruments of produc

tion we will rely solely on the force of words and exampes

to make our ideas tiumph

AM B R OG O : All right; and you think that in this way we

will arrve at a sociey that governs itsef simply through the

voluntary agreement of ts members? If that is the case it

would be a thing without ecee!

G O RG I0 : Not as much as you might think. As a matter of

fa in essence t has always been li ke that that is i f one

considers the defeated the dominated the oppressed

drawn from the ower levels of huma nity as not reay par

of socie

Aer all even today the essential part of social lfe in the

dominant class as in the dominated class, is accomplished

through spontaneous agreements often unconscous

beween ndvduals by virtue of custom points of honour

respe for promises fear of public opinion a sense of hon

esy love sympathy rules of good manners wthout any

intervention by the law and the government Law and gov

ernments become necessary only when we deal wth rela

tions beween the dominators and the dominated Among

equals everyone feels ashamed to call a policeman or have

recourse to a udge!

n despotic States where all the inhabtants are treated like

a herd in the service of the sole ruler no one has a will but

84

keep the masses submissive But little by ittle as others

arrive and achieve emancipation and enter the dominant

class that is sociey in the strict sense of the word either

through direct participaton in government or by means of

possessing wealth Ciety moulds itself in ways which satis

fy the will of all the dominators The whole legsative and

executive apparatus the whole government wth its laws

soldiers pocemen judges etc serve ony to regulate and

ensure the exploitation of the people Otherwise the owners

would find it simper and more economical to agree among

themselves and do away with the state. The bourgeois them

selves have voiced the same opinion when for a moment

they forget that without solders and polcemen the people

would spol the pary

Destroy class divisions make sure that there are no more

slaves to keep in check and immediately the state will have

no more reason to exist

AMBROGIO But dont exaggerate The State also does

things of benefit to all t educates watches over pubic

health defends the lves of citizens organises public servic

es don't tell me that these are worthless or damaging

things!

G O G O Ug h Done the way the State usual ly does it

that is hardly at al The truth is that it s aways the workers

who really do those thi ngs and the State setting itself up as

ther regulator transforms such services into nstruments of

domination turning them to the special advantage of the

rulers and owners

85

duon spreds, if tere is in te publi te dsre for


45/80

p p

instrution nd if tere re teers pble of eduting;publi elt tries, en te publi knos, ppreites

nd n put into prtie publi lt rules, nd en terr dotors pbl of ging people die; te ies of it

iens re sfe en te peope re ustomed to onsidr

life nd umn libertes sred nd en ter re nojudges nd no polie fore to proide exmpes of brutlity;

publi sris ill b orgnisd n te pubi fels tneed for tem

Te Stte does not rete nyting t bst it is only otr

superfluity, ortless ste of energy But if ony it s justuselss!

AM B R O G O Lee it ter n ny s tink you sid enoug nt to reflet upon it

Until e meet gi n .

87


46/80

AM B R G I O hae reflecte on w hat you hae been

te ng me u rng thee coneraton of our . An I g e up

the ebate. Not becaue I a mt efeat but n a wor

you hae your argument an the future may well be wthyou

I am n the meantme a magtrate an a ong a there

law mut repect t an enure that t repecte ouunertan

G I O R G I O Oh I unertan ery well Go go f you ke

t wl be up to u to aboh the aw an o free you from

the obgaton to act agant your concence

AMBROGIO Eay eay nt ay that but neer

mn

woul l ke a few other expanaton from you

We coul perhap come to an unertanng on the que

ton regarng the property regme an the poltc organ

aton of ocety after all they are htorc formaton that

hae change many tme an poby wll chang e agan

Bu t there re om e acre nttuton ome profoun em

ton of the human heart that you contnuay oen the famy the fatherlan

or ntance you want to put eerythng n commonNaturally you wll put een women n common an thu

make a great eraglo nt th o?

G l O R G I Lten f you want to hae a cuon wth

me pleae ont ay fooh thng an make oke n batate he queton we are eal ng w th too ero u to nter

poe ulgar joke

A M B R O G O B u t wa erou What woul you o

wth the women?

G O R G hen o much the wore for you becaue t

really trange that you ont unertan the aburty ofwhat you hae jut a

Put women n common W hy ont you a y that we wan t to

put men n common? he only explanaton for th ea of

your that you through ngrane habt coner womana an nferor beng mae an pace on th wor to ere

a a ometc anmal an a an ntrument of peaure forthe male ex an o you peak of her a f he were a thng

an ma gn e that we m ut agn her the ame etny a we

agn to thng89

But w who consd woan as a huan bng ual to


47/80

ouslvs who shoud noy a th ghts and a th

soucs noyd by o that ought to b noyd by th

a s fnd th uston What wll you do wth th

won py of anng Ask nstad "What wll thwon do and I wl answ that they wil d hat the

want to do, and snc thy hav th sa nd as n to

lv n a socy t s ctan that the wi want to co to

agnts wth th flow catus n and won n

od to satsfy th nds to th bst avantg fo th

slvs and vybody ls

A M B R OG I O I s you consd won as ual to n

t any scntsts anng th anatocal stuctu and

th physologcal functons of th fa body antan thatwoan s natually nfo to an

G I O R G I O s of cous. Whatv nds to b antand th s always a scntst wllng t antan t ha so scntsts that antan th nfoy of won as

th a oths that on th contay antan that th

undstand ng of won and th capac fo dvlopnt

a ual to that of n and F today on gnally

appa to hav ss capacy than n ths s du to th du

caton thy hav cvd and th nvonnt n whch thy

v IF you sach cafully you wll vn Fnd so scntsts

o at last won scntsts that asst that an s an nF

o bng dstnd to lbat won Fo atal to and

av th f to dvop th tants n an unltd way

I blv that ths vw has bn asstd n Aca

Bu t who cas hs s not about solng a scntFc pob

l but about alng a vow a huan al9

Ge t wmen all te means and te lbery t deelp and

ll l l f l f

famly D yu want t abls t r rganse t n anter

bass?


48/80

wat wll cme wll cme f wmen are equal t men r f

tey are mre r less ntellgent t wll sw n practce

and een scence wll be adantaged as t wll ae sme

pste data upn wc t base ts nductns

AM B R O G O S yu dnt take n t cnsderatn te facultes wt wc ndduals are endwed?

G O R G I : Nt n te sense tat tese suld create spe

cal rgts n nature yu wll nt fnd tw equal ndduals

but we cla m scal equaly fr all n ter wrds te same

resurces te same pprtuntes and we tnk tat ts

equalty nt nly crrespnds t te feelngs f ustce and

fraterny tat ae deelped n umany but wrks t tebeneft f all weter tey are strng r weak

Een amng men amng males tere are sme w are

mre and ters w are less ntellgent but ts des nt

mean tat te ne suld ae mre rgts tan te ter.

ere are sme w ld tat blndes are mre gfted tan

brunettes r ce ersa tat races wt blng skulls are

superr t tse wt brad skulls r ce ersa and te

ssue f t s based n real facts s certanly nterestng frscence. But gen te current state f feelngs and uman

deals t wuld be absurd t pretend tat blndes and te

dlccepalc suld cmmand te brwns and te

brancycepalc r te ter way rund

Dnt yu tn k s?

AM B R O G O : All rgt; but lets lk at te questn f te

9

bass?

GORGO Lk As far as te famly s cncerned we

need t cnsder te ecnmc relatns te sexual rela

tns and te relatns between parents and cldren

nsfar as te fam ly s an ecnmc nsttutn t s clear tat

nce nd dual prpery s ablsed and a s a cnsequence

nertance t as n mre reasn t exst and wll e c

dsappear n ts sense weer te famly s already abl

sed fr e great mary f te ppulatn wc s cm

psed f prletarans

AM B R OG O : And as far as sexual relatns? D yu want

free le d

G O R G O O cme n D yu tnk tat enslaed le

culd really exst? Frced cabtatn exsts as des

fegned and frced le fr reasns f nterest r f scal

cnenence prbably tere wll be men and wmen w

wll respect te bnd f matrmny because f relgus r

mral cnctns but true le cannt exst cannt be cn

ceed f t s nt perfectly free.

AMBROGO s s true but f eeryne fllws te fan

ces nspred by te gd f le tere wll be n mre

mrals and te wrld wll becme a brtel

G O R G O As far as mrals are cncerned yu can real

y brag abut te results f yur n sttutns! Adultery les f

3

every sort ong chershed hatreds husbands that kll wves

th t h b d f t d hld

Certanly once we elmnate the condtons that today ren

der the relatons between men and women artfcal and


49/80

wves that poson husbands nfantcde chldren growng

up amdst scandals and famly brawls And ths s the

moralty that you fear s beng threatened by free love?

Today the world s a brothel because women are oten

forced to prosttute themselves through hu nger a nd becau sematrmony frequently contracted through a pure calculaton

of nterest, s throughout the whole of ts duraton a unon

nto whch love ether does not enter at all , or enters ony as

an accessory

Assure everyone of the means to ve properly and ndepend

ently gve women the compete lbert to dspose of ther

own bodes destroy the preudces relgous and otherwse

that bnd men and women to a mass of conventons thatderve from slavery and whch perpetuate t and sexual

unons wll be made of love and wll gve rse to the happ

ness of ndvduals and the good of the speces

AMBROGIO But n short are you n favour of lastng or

temporary unons? Do you want separate couples or a mul

tplcty and varety of sexual relatons, or even promscut?

G IO RG IO We want l bert

Up to now sexual relatons have suffered enormously from

the pressure of brutal volence of economc necessty of rel

gous prejudces and legal regulatons that t has not been

possble to work out what s the form of sexual relatons

whch best corresponds to the phScal and moral well beng

of ndvduals and the speces.

94

der the relatons between men and women artfcal and

forced a sexual hygen e and a sexual mora lt wl l be estab

lshed that wll be respected not because of the law but

through the convcton based on experence that they sats

our wel beng and that of the speces Ths can only come

about as the effect of lbert

AMBROGIO And the ch ldren?

GIORGIO: You must understand that once we have prop

erty n common and establsh on a sold moral and mater

al base the prncple of socal soldarty the mantenance of

the chdren wll be the concern of the communty and ther

educaton wll be the care and responsbl of everyoneProbably all men and all women wll love all the children;

and f as I beleve s certan parents have a specal afec

ton for ther own chldren they can only be delghted to

know that the future of ther chldren s secure havng for

ther mantenan ce and the r educaton the cooperaton of the

whole soce

AMBROGO: But you do, at least respect parents' rghtsover ther chl dren?

GIORGIO Rghts over ch ldren are composed of dutes

One has many rg hts over them that s to say many rghts to

gude them and to care for them to love them and to worry

about them and snce parents generally love ther chldren

more than anyone else t s usually ther du and ther rg ht

95

t vd f t nd t nt nay t a any a

ln t t bau a w unnatua ant v t

dn ant lv and d nt a t ty wll b

b lvn bn dun aat and avaab

a aa t vyn a and


50/80

dn ant lv and d nt a t ty wll b

ntnt tat t wll ta a t ldn and

t f t taK

If by a ant t v t dn yu an t t

t altat ut and xt t tn I ablutly tt t a nd tn tat n ty wty f t nawuld nz and u t u wt t

A ut dnt yu tn tat by ntutn t

nbly t antnan f ldn t t u

ny yu wll v u an na n ulatn tat

t wll n ln b nu vyn t lv n ut

u y u wnt wan t a a ny tal f altua n

and wll a y tat t an abu dty

I I d yu n ant an tat abud

t tnd ta t t nt vty dnd n vula

tn and abud t w t d bad n

altuan at ut I a vy wlln t n t

un t uatn utn and adt tat n

t uu wn vy nw bn ld aud ut

v uld b bn du t a al x uatnanatd and duatd n wn ty n t n

ay w nd an a lt t vly ad ult

atn t bu t I wuld add tat ty w tn

uly abut t ny wn adn and vl bta

lad un dutn by t d n t

and a t a au vy a natd nly tn

wll t n avn a balan bwn t nu

M O O nd dntwant ttnabutt ?

G O O Wltn, a twtm!

u dnt want t u ndtand t

n vdn,

wt dvn natua tatat t wb n

umanty P av t u t wn w b n

dnwatty t n uu a nd nay ta t

a

u away ay butwat ty dntwan t t? I n t a

ty w av nt n and w away man at t

myt b n d tat uun d tm

t tday ldnt nw watt dt bm f, f ty Knw, dnt want tdwat n

dtb dn t

l battmlv Andtu ty m a n av

Buw tan tanyu m ttntywl nw

wat t d an db aabl d n t

n ty wll b

97

E L E V EN


51/80

E L E V EN

AM B RO G IO . The other day you concluded that every

thing depends on the will You were saying that if people

want to be free, if they want to do what needs to be done to

live in a sociey of equals everything will be fine: or if not

so much the worse for them This would be all right if they

all want the same thing; but if some want to live in anarchy

and others prefer the guardianship of a government, if some

are prepared to take into consideration the needs of thecommuniy and others want to enjoy the benefits derived

from social life, but do not want to adapt themselves to the

necessities involved and want to do what they like without

taking into account the damage it could do to others, what

happens if there is no government that determines and

imposes social duties?

G IO RG IO If there is a government, the will of the rulers

and of their party and associated interests will triumph and

the problem, which is how to satisf the will of all is not

resolved On the contrary the difficulty is aggravated The

governing fraction can not only use its own resources to

ignore or violate the will of others, but has at its disposal the

strength of the whole sociey to impose its will This is the

case in our present society where the working class provides

8

the government with the soldiers and the wealh to keep the

workers slaves

I think I have already told you we wnt a sociey in which

everyone has the means to live as they ike where no ne

can force others to work for them, where no one can com

pel another to submit to their will Once wo principles are

put into practice, libery for all and th e instruments of produc

tion for all everything else will follow naturally through

force of circumstances, and the new sociey will organise

itsef in the way that agrees best with the interests of all

AMBROGIO: And if some wnt to impose themselves by

crude force?

G IO RG IO Then they will be the government or the can

didates for government, and we will oppose them with force.

You must understand that if today we wnt to make a rev

lution against the government, it is not in order to submit ur

selves supinely t new oppressors If such as these win, the

revolution would be defeated and it would have to be re

made

99

AMBROGO But you would surely al low some ethical

principles, superir to the wills and caprices f humanty,cases f unsuitabe behaviour or of illness, we will aempt t

find the causes and to introduce them to appropriate reme


52/80

p p p p y

and t whi ch everyone is b

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