Can we consider minutes of meeting part of the contract document.docx

7/28/2019 Can we consider minutes of meeting part of the contract document.docx

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Can we consider minutes of meeting part of the contract document??6 days ago

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Raja Waqas Ahmed,Essameldin Zahran, PMP,LEED GA.and1 otherlike this

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Follow Karsten

Karsten Kuske Hi,

could you be a bit more precise?Are you talking about the tender phase, when minutes could become part of a contract, or are you talking about theexecution phase?Im not aware of any provisions (FIDIC, laws, ...) that allow minutes to be automatically part of the contractdocument.But, for example, if minutes are taken during the tender phase and "the contract" (later on) refers to and list these,then these minutes are part of the contract document.If minutes are taken during execution phase and if theres no specific clause in the existing contract, like "minuteswill become part of this contract" (or the like), then these minutes are no part of the contract document.But an intersting question...K.K.6 days ago Like

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Follow Peter

Peter Foreman Yes, you can incorporate Minutes, but a more interesting question is whether you should. TheMinutes will now become contractual documents. All of them, including the non-contractual stuff, the issues thatwere not resolved until later meetings, the bits in non-legal language etc. You are buying yourself a dispute as theMinutes will often be in conflict with other contractual documents. If something is agreed that is important, put it in

the Contract as a properly drafted clause.5 days ago Like

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2/15

Follow Scott

Scott Chalmers

From a legal perspective, the logical answer is 'No' if you mean minutes of meetings taking placeAFTER the contract is executed. A 'Contract Document' to most transactional people means a document formingpart of the contract, and that logically _requires_ it to exist at the time of execution.In respect of pre-contract negotiation minutes, the question would be 'What does the Contract say about it?'For post-contract meeting minutes, don't confuse administrative documents with the contract itself. They could havecontractual force, but I agree with Peter F above - why should they? IMHO to do so seems sloppy - anything arisingout of the minutes should be dealt with properly - by a variation, extension of time, notice of default or other properadministrative document.5 days ago Like

Follow Daniel

Daniel Alcon Agree with Peter. On the assumption you are referring to pre-contract minutes of meeting, theparticular issue must be written into the contract before execution. Otherwise you are asking for trouble during theconstruction period. Minutes of meeting as contract documents are an accident waiting to happen. The same goes fortender documents too in my opinion.5 days ago Like

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Follow Clarence Elmer

Clarence Elmer Quismundo I agree with Peter, Daniel and Scott that they could be, and it is indeed correct to askwhy? If everything is documented (and at times even recorded on electronic equipment), even those thingsmentioned in passing such as ("this is a very good cup of tea", well you get the idea) would be included. So does thatmean a selective or subjective application should be adopted? As the word "subjective" connotes, there will be chaosas some items considered important by some will be considered trivial by others.

They do serve as good administrative documents because those matters discussed and subsequently agreed by theparties are officially recorded. As such they serve a good purpose in addressing Claims, effecting variations in costand in time, issuing and following up instructions, sorting out site problems, and having personal chit-chat with theClient (a very important social function, mind you!).

Best regards.5 days ago Like
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3/15

Follow Ruben

Ruben Salgado I agree that Minutes of Meeting executed by parties during the the tender stage and explicitly wasmade part of the Contract Document comprising the contract is binding as part of the executed Contract Agreement.If however, that Minutes of Meeting was executed during contract execution, it cannot be part of the signed contractgoverning the contract execution UNLESS and until it was translated to a Contract Variation/Amendment. Basic incontracts that the only way to vary an existing contract is by way of a contract variation/amendment which is agreedand signed by both parties and maybe valid as part of the existing contract so long as it will not affect the rights andobligations of a third party who may have been affected by the change in the contract. Although the contractingparties has every right to vary the contract, this is not absolute if a third party's right will be affected. If a third partywould be affected by the contract amendment, if ever, then that third party has to be given the opportunity to beheard on such variation/amendment. If there is no third party affected, then that executed contract amendment isvalid and would be part of the existing contract.5 days ago Like

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Follow Peter

Peter Foreman Ruben, your statement that third parties have a right to be consulted is not true in all legal systems.Under English Law the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act, 1999, for example, allows the Parties to the contractto state specifically that they have no right to be consulted, and it is common drafting in parent company guaranteesto exclude such a right.5 days ago Like


Clarence Elmer Quismundo Dear Peter,

I am positive that Ruben is speaking from a civil law perspective. I know that for a fact because he is a compatriot.

This would be sidetracking from our main topic, but I believe it is an important aspect, since we were discussing thepotential use of the Minutes to amend the contract.

Do we have a common ground as far as the effect of a contract amendment to parties outside the contract isconcerned? In our local Civil Code, any contract provision, and amendments for that matter is valid unless it is
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4/15

against public policy, order, safety or otherwise against an existing law. Does English Law provide for somethingsimilar?5 days ago Like

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Ruben Salgado Hi Peter, maybe you are right my premise is when there is a third party involved and would beaffected and its right is violated. I raised this point because I was once involved in a similar case. There is one bigreputable supplier from Europe and the Client is a big Power Plant Corporation from a country. This is ADB funded.The third party is ADB. For them to accommodate a change order for expediency, the contract was executed andsigned already and they agreed by way of a certain agreement that they will reconstruct the contract and modify thecontract reckoning to cover the period of the change order. In fact the contract was already sign by both parties andneeds ADB NO -Objection. it so happened, that this was passed on to me for a quick review but only after so many

required signatories/initial were already in placedt and i saw the implications. Normally they can do that if ONLYthe two contracting parties are involve since contract is consensual, and so long as the contracting parties agreed.However, ADB approval was already there and those contract details and subsequent transactions were already onrecord with ADB. This is a classic case of what I am saying, although a very rare case and this could be a simpleoversight. Still if a third party is to be affected and will prejudice its right to that contract, if any, then that third partyif not informed could file a restraining order with the courts to stop such action. I am more referring in the civilcourts in the Philippines. However, basic is the fact that rights of any party which is one way or another has aninterest in a contract should also be protected not just the contracting parties. One more case, if a sub-contract is partof the contract from day one and an approved subcontract, the prime contract cannot just remove the subcontracteven with Client approval without that subcontract being informed. Yes, they may technically since they agreed, but,they cannot do this with ease since the subcontract will drag them to court. This is what i am saying that it is not anabsolute right since all contracts are supposed to be not contrary to law, public order, morals, customs and publicpolicy as a rule.

4 days ago Like

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Ruben Salgado Sorry I am referring to Prime Contractor and subcontractor..my fault..to register my corrections.4 days ago Like

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5/15

Peter Foreman Clarence/Ruben,

Firstly Clarence is right, I was only intending to say the position is not the same in all jurisdictions, and on Ruben'spoint, clearly if ADB approval was needed, then this would be a requirement in any country, as it is a contractualobligation on the Contractor. However, merely because a change has an adverse impact on someone who is not aparty to the contract does not necessarily mean they have to be consulted.4 days ago Like

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Hussein El Bakry The contract documents are those documents that the parties agree upon when executing thecontract.Such documents could be of any matter, including MoM, MoUs, correspondence. After executing the

contract, further documents could be added to the contract documents; only through contract amendment(s), with themutual agreement of the parties.During the lifespan of the contract, correspondence, daily, weekly & monthly reports and minutes of progressmeetings, when agreed by the parties to be true records, are formal records but do not form part of the contractdocuments.4 days ago Like

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Ruben Salgado The magic term in my piece is the word ABSOLUTE right. I may agree this is more of anexception than a rule, but, the fact remains that interest of a third party to the contract is also protected by law. As towhether there is a valid ground or justifications for the parties to do it is another matter. The issue is the third partyhas to be informed...4 days ago Like

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Peter Foreman Ruben, and I accept that this may be correct in many, indeed possibly most, countries. Just not all.4 days ago Like
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6/15

Follow Ruben

Ruben Salgado

Yes, Peter, I absolutely agree that this may not be true in all jurisdiction.4 days ago Like

Follow Hussein

Hussein El Bakry Third parties are usually parties with separate contractual relations to a party. That party shouldreview its commitments to others prior to accepting an amendment to the contract. Third parties whose interests

might be affected by a contract amendment should pursue their interests from the party who has commitments withthem. A contract amendment is validated when the parties agree thereto, and shall not be suspended or outlawed dueto third party interests affected by the amendment.4 days ago Like

1

Follow Ruben

Ruben Salgado Hi Hussein, I am not saying that the matter of informing the third party be made prior toconcluding the contract amendment. What I am saying is the third party should be informed by the contracting partywho has a commitment with the third party. To me if that is complied that satisfies the issue. True the contractamendment is validated when the parties agree thereto. But, it can be assailed by the third party in interest whoserights is violated and could file a case in a court of competent jurisdiction and pray for an issuance of an immediateremedy of a restraining order citing legal grounds and offering prima facie evidence that its right will be violatedand it will suffer as a consequence thereof. So in effect if this prayer for this remedy will be granted, then thecontract amendment maybe set aside and rendered unenforceable for a certain period. Of course this is not outrightbe considered as unlawful just because a third party's right is prima facie violated. This requires determination bythe court. I am talking of two situations here. The immediate remedy available which is setting aside the contractamendment, and then if granted, the permanent remedy if determined unlawful would render the amendment invalid.What I am saying is, if the document is found contrary to law, public policy, public order, morals and customs, then,

this contract amendment would be considered invalid and unlawful and has no force and effect.4 days ago Like
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roupItem?setLike=&gid=2723380&type=member&item=241691705&commentID=138498599&csrfToken=ajax%3A7499085001510020056&trk=gde_lkcmt&goback=%2Egde_2723380_member_241691705http://www.linkedin.com/groups?viewMemberFeed=&gid=2723380&memberID=75518572http://www.linkedin.com/groupfollowing?follow=&followee=75518572&csrfToken=ajax%3A7499085001510020056&goback=%2Egde_2723380_member_241691705&trk=fwp_lhttp://www.linkedin.com/groupItem?setLike=&gid=2723380&type=member&item=241691705&commentID=138497405&csrfToken=ajax%3A7499085001510020056&trk=gde_lkcmt&goback=%2Egde_2723380_member_241691705http://www.linkedin.com/groups?viewMemberFeed=&gid=2723380&memberID=222522856http://www.linkedin.com/groupfollowing?follow=&followee=222522856&csrfToken=ajax%3A7499085001510020056&goback=%2Egde_2723380_member_241691705&trk=fwp_l


7/15


Clarence Elmer Quismundo

@Hussein

In most cases, prior notice or information is all that they (the third parties) need. Call it a courtesy call or such thingsthat prevent you from being accused as "disrespectful" for bypassing them.

To cite an example. most insurers and banks include a provision in their policies for Performance Bonds/Securitiesthat the contracting parties (particularly the Principal) shall inform them of any changes or amendments to theContract. Take note of the word "SHALL" which denotes a compulsory requirement. Further, they require theEmployers to inform them of the Contractor's default (especially if the Employer intends to make a demand againstthe bond), if the validity date needs extension, or if the Employer intends to carry out repairs on areas which theoriginal Contractor is responsible but which they are not addressing despite repeated instructions.

It does not say that they will file a case in court to stop your actions. Most of the time, they do not resort to that.However, your actions without giving them information within a reasonable time might lead to the security

becoming null and void. In this case, the Employer's agreement with or action against the Contractor remains validbut that will not be the case with the bond or security.

It was a lesson that I Iearned about 17 years ago which I do not forget to this day. It was during my younger yearsobviously, where due to my impatience with the subcontractor (and my lack of experience) I ordered the directrepair of a certain defective work without informing the insurer. It resulted to the warranty being waived. Oh boy,did I hear a word from my Japanese boss!

I hope the above will help to elaborate Ruben's point further. So perhaps we can let the other esteemed colleagues torevert to the original topic. I'm out of here (I hope).

Best regards.4 days ago Like

Follow Flvio R. Naval

Flvio R. Naval Machado Hi folks. Very good arguments above.

But going back to the main stream in this discussion, I'd like to add something:

1) I agree with most everybody above in the sense that pre-contractual meetings minutes, to the extent possible,should have the information/"dispositions"in it sorted, filtered and transcribed in legal terms in the contract.Nonetheless, I do recommend they are kept so, if necessary, the parties can demonstrate to one another (preferably)or to a neutral third party how and in what basis they come to reach the agreement about certain aspects, if thediscussion ever comes to discuss interpretation of a given clause. So my answer would be "preferably not, but keepthem".

2) As regard meetings held after the contract has been executed, the answer would be "no" for two reasons (1) inmost cases, the persons that sign the minutes of the meetings do not have legal powers to amend the contract, and (2)
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8/15

even if they have such powers, in most cases, they are not aiming nor willing to amend the contract, so that theminutes of the meetings have to be interpreted in light of the contract.

3) But, I would dare say that not few of us have seen minutes of meeting that simply ignore and contradict thecontract? Or have we not? All I can say is that, at the end of the day, such professionals are taking personalresponsbility (I really believe "liability"would be more appropriate in this case) before their respective employer's. Ifanything like this happen, they parties should work fast to review it or to amend the contract.

4) But, still, there is some "magic" left here. It seems that longer term contracts, such as it is the case of constructioncontracts, no matter how much the parties, their engineers and lawyers try to make them complete and exhaustive,there is always something or a part of the contract left to be detailed/written... And, although I agree that after thecontract is executed (signed), the minutes of meetings helded then are not supponsed to change/modify/amend thecontract, the truth is that in the way I described in this item (4), they do "modify/complete" the contract, sort of"writing between the lines", if you allow me to use this expression in this way. So my advice is "beware of what youwrite or let someone else write" in such meeting minutes. Not seldom, they "re-interpret" the constract.... Take careand keep them!

5) Third parties are not a party to the agreement, but, yes, they can be affected by the contents of, decisions recoededin such minutes of meetings, specially when such decisions made in the meeting contradict the contract and suchcontradictions affect directly the scope of work being performed by such third parties. With all due respect, despite

the great importance of this comments (and they are important indeed), I am of the opinion that this is a problem of adifferent nature of initial discussion (although very relevant and important).

Cheers.3 days ago Like

4

Follow Vic

Vic Sto. Domingo Minutes of meetings held after Contract signing are definitely not part of the ContractDocuments.

Minutes of Pre-Bid Meetings shouldnot be made part of the Contract Documents. Some contract drafters may beincluding the Minutes of Pre-Bid Meetings as part of the Contract Documents, but it is submitted that such a practiceis not correct and is not in accordance with established procurement procedures.

Pre-bid meetings are held for the purpose of clarifying the Bid Documents; not for the purpose of changing them. Ifthe Bid Documents need to be changed resulting from any matter discussed during a pre-bid meeting (or raised inthe written Questions submitted by prospective bidders during the bidding process), that change should be effectedthrough the issuance of an appropriate Addendum; not through the Minutes of Pre-Bid Meeting.

See for example ITB Clause 7.6 (ADB SBD 2006) which states in part that Any modification to the BiddingDocument that may become necessary as a result of the pre-bid meeting shall be made by the Employer exclusivelythrough the issue of an addendum pursuant to ITB 8 and not through the minutes of the pre-bid meeting.3 days ago Like

3
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9/15

Follow Mohammed

Mohammed Azad Hossain

Dear Friends: It has been overstated by some honorable members that Minutes ofMeeting (MM) after contract signing should not be part of the Contract Documents. Obviously not. ContractDocuments are the Documents, which are prepared after Tender submittal, Evaluation and before award of theContract. The question of inclusion of MM as part of the Contract document after contract signed does not arise.There is no Contract Documents after contract award, if requires to be incorporated, it will be a supplementarycontract document.

I agree with Ruben that Pre-tender MM could be part of the Contract Documents. We have included this MM inmany of our Contracts as a part of the Contract Documents and included in the Addenda. Each and every documentsof the contract must be accommodated in its proper place within the ambit of the contract documents.

The Tender and Contract Documents are generally identified by Documents Numbers, like Doc I-TenderingProcedure, Doc II- Conditions of Contract and so on. Addenda is also a part of the Contract Documents and areissued during tendering period, clarifying bidders' queries including any revised tender documents like drawings,

specs and BOQ etc.

It is not a mandatory requirement that MM should be part of the Contract. It depends on the gravity and weightage(importance) of the MM, Tender/Contract procedures and Construction practices, which may vary from country tocountry.2 days ago Like

Reply privately Flag as inappropriate

2

Follow Tudor

Tudor Trocin No, minutes of meeting is not contractual document.1 day ago Like

Follow Jesus

Jesus Bisares MoM can never be a part of the conract during execution phase, however, since such will form partof true project documents, it can also be used as legal basis to determine violations to the content of a contract whendisputes arise.1 day ago Like
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10/15

Follow L.H.

L.H. Chin

Always ask yourself the 1st rule of Claims Management. What does your contract say ?

I believe 90% of all contracts will have a provision stating what the contract documents consists of. And 99.99% ofthem will not have any provision stating that minutes of meetings are part of the contract documents.

So always keep it simple and follow the 1st rule when looking for answers - Ask yourself i.e. What does yourcontract say ? Is it that simple.

No complicated rhetoric or lengthy dissertation required.1 day ago Like

1

Follow Kevan

Kevan Da'Bell,Dip Law, LLM, CIOB. I have to concur with previous comments; for minutes for meets tobecome a ContractDocument such must be agreed within the Contract from the outset (previously noted). It isevident, that such a document could be an advantage as well as a disadvantage. In most meetings delays and thecause of is usually discussed and recorded within the minutes, thus an employer, consultant, architect or whoeveracts on behalf of the employer can be made aware of existing and upcoming problems. This is some instances suchmay/could be conceived as goodnotice (making the employer aware) being issued in a timely manner. Therefore if

minutes ofmeeting are agreed as a contract document such may help at a later date when human error hits and anotice is forgotten.19 hours ago Like

Follow Awni

Awni Masri Minutes of meeting is a documentation of oral discussions .If it includes changes , variations

,instructions, notices ,request or the like,it should be followed by written notices as may the contract requires.Minutes of meeting is not written notices or instructions , it may form oral notice or instruction only.18 hours ago Like
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11/15

Follow Awni

Awni Masri

i am talking about the construction phase. I agreed with the comments during the pre-agreementphase when such minutes are considered part of the documents of the contract.17 hours ago Like

Follow Kevan

Kevan Da'Bell,Dip Law, LLM, CIOB. Gentlemen, see; John L. Harley Ltd v Dumfries & Galloway Regional

Council (1988). Following the Scottish decision, it was found that the majority of the standard forms, the sitemeeting minutes will not constitute good notice unless the parties specifically amend the contract in this respect. Theparties often agree at the outset ( agreement within the contract) that the obligation(s) to submit a written noticewill be waived since delays will be recorded in the site meeting minutes instead. Where such a practice is put intoaction; the employer would be stopped from denying the contractor an entitlement to an extension of time throughthe lack of a written notice.6 hours ago Like

Follow L.H.

L.H. Chin @Kevan, I believe you forgot to mention an important point. Contracts can only be amended providedthere is mutual agreement between the parties to do so. Please take note that parties here does not include employeesof the parties but only those who are authorised by the parties to act on their behalf. And authority can only be giventhrough the execution of legal instruments such as company director's resolution or board resolutions.

The people who attend meetings normally do not have these authorisations. So your suggestion that the parties couldat the onset agree to waive notices could be misleading as even project directors form both parties would mostprobably not given the said authority to vary the contract at all !!!!

So the danger is the parties would be under the false impression that the terms have been varied when the procedureto do so remains to be legally carried out. Minutes of Meetings do not have the legal weight to amend any contract.Also at best it can only be used as secondary evidence. i.e. to support or substantiate a cause of action not the actionitself.6 hours ago Like

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