Chenrezig Retreat2007 Winter Retreat (Q&A #6)Ven. Thubten ChodronSravasti Abbey, Newport, WashingtonFebruary 1, 2007Transcriber: Sharon Werner

Qualities of the Buddha/RefugeIn Dignaga’s Homage, in his compendium on valid cognition, he began by praising the Buddha, saying “I bow to the one who is reliable, who is intent on working for the benefit of others, who is knowledgeable and wise, who is the teacher, who is the protector of sentient beings.”

And then he talked about each of those qualities, beginning with the Buddha’s compassion which makes him totally focused on doing just what is beneficial for sentient beings. So we can trust the Buddha and his teachings because of his good motivation. But that’s not enough to make him totally trustworthy because compassionate people can also be mistaken. But because of his wisdom, he’s realized the subtle aspects of the Four Noble Truths, sees everything clearly; and by means of that wisdom-realizing emptiness has abandoned everything to abandon, has realized everything to realize. And so he has direct experience of the truth. And then that leads him to teach. He has not only the dharma realizations himself, but motivated by compassion teaches them to others; without any self-interest involved or any expectation of receiving benefit from those who he teaches. And because with joyous effort he does this; and teaches truthfully without error, then he protects sentient beings by showing us the way out of our suffering. For these reasons - because he is intent on the welfare of sentient beings; because with wisdom he’s the one gone to blissful nirvana; because he is the teacher who teaches truthfully; and because he is enthusiastic about doing that and is our protector; because of those reasons then the Buddha becomes trustworthy, becomes reliable.

That’s a very important quality. When we take refuge we want to take refuge in an enlightened one, enlightened teachings, the disciples who have perceived reality, various Sangha, and so on; because in that we know that what we’re learning is reliable and true because other beings have experienced it. And so that’s our outer refuge. But the real refuge is the inner refuge. And the Buddha himself encouraged us to develop that. Because he said it’s actually only when we put into practice the teachings and gain our own direct experience of them, then we can confidently say that the Buddha is a totally wise teacher, the Dharma is the correct method, the Sangha are the valued guides. So that inner refuge – our own understandings, our own realizations – is what we’re aiming for. But even if we don’t have any direct experiences of the arya’s realizations, still whatever we have understood through our own practice; whatever we have experienced ourselves, becomes something reliable, something dependable. And it increases our confidence in the Buddha, because whatever even small experience we have gained has come from following the Buddha’s teachings. So we see for ourselves even with our small experience that he’s reliable, and we take refuge.

So when we think of the various qualities of the Buddha and the various knowledges and so on, the properties of the omniscient mind, it is really quite amazing. But what always moves me the most is when I think about this, is the aspect of compassion. Without the Buddha having

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compassion, then there would be no way for us to have any knowledge about the Dharma. It’s solely due to a Buddha’s compassion that they not only practice the path to full enlightenment but also teach.

I’ve been thinking about, because in the Pali Canon there is a lot of talk about the jhanas; the various levels of meditative stabilization that you gain along the path. They are by all accounts incredibly blissful. It’s said to be a very virtuous kind of bliss because it takes the mind away from seeking sense pleasure happiness. This bliss of concentration, this peace of the concentrated states, pulls the mind out of the attachment to sensual happiness and towards something that is more blissful. But the bliss of the meditative stabilizations is also experienced by non-Buddhists. One can experience them without having wisdom, without having compassion.

And I was thinking, because when I was in Thailand, the monks who are training talk a lot about the jhanas – these meditative stabilizations. And in our tradition there is talk about them, there is a lot of explanation about them; but at the beginning we aren’t encouraged in that direction. In seeing and hearing how incredibly blissful they are, I can understand why. Even in the hearer and solitary realizer vehicles where you’re aim is your own liberation, even there, they warn you about getting stuck in the bliss of the meditative stabilizations without continuing on to pursue wisdom and free yourself from cyclic existence. But I could imagine, okay, you’re experiencing this bliss and concentration; if your Buddha comes along, your teacher comes along and says, “You’re still in cyclic existence. You have to develop special insight and get out of samsara.” You might be able to detach yourself from that bliss because you realize there’s higher bliss of nirvana, so, “I’ve got to put put some more effort and I’ll get that.” But if the Buddha were going to come along and say, “Don’t get stuck in these blissful states, but come back and help all of these incredible ungrateful, unruly, ridiculous, foolish sentient beings?” It seems like any normal person would just say, "Forget it! If I have to separate from the bliss of my meditation to get myself out of samsara, okay. But to help sentient beings, for three countless great eons, and they don't say, "Thank you," and they're completely self-centered; their minds are totally fickle; they say one thing and do another; and they promise all sorts of things and break their promises; you give them vows and they break them; they criticize you. . . you want me to leave my blissful samadhi to help these guys?”

When you think about it, then you really see how much compassion the Buddha has to have, such incredible great compassion to leave that bliss. That's not even the ultimate bliss. That's not even the bliss of nirvana, it’s just the bliss of samadhi. To leave that to come and help us, to come and spend three countless great eons finishing the path in order to do so; when one could attain these jhanic states in a couple a couple of lifetimes. Or maybe even in the same lifetime, and wham, you go off to nirvana! Instead of that you're going to hang around for three countless great eons to benefit us imbeciles?

It must take incredible compassion on the side of the bodhisattvas, just amazing compassion. So to me, when I think about it, that’s that quality…I want to be like that! When I think about it, the aim of just nirvana and dwelling in peace doesn't sound so interesting. Being out of samsara sure would be nice, but it just sounds much more interesting to be able do something beneficial for everybody else. Doesn't that just sound much more appealing, to be able to do something beneficial? In my work with the inmates, and this is what blows me away, this is the quality that

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gets them hooked on the dharma - the compassion and the idea of bodhicitta, the idea of making your life beneficial for sentient beings. When the guys write me, this is what hooked them so often into the Dharma, is the idea of compassion.

One of the inmates wrote me. He's twenty-five years old, real enthusiastic about the dharma. He just dove into the retreat. Then he wrote and he said, "I just can’t get through so many mantras! I'm just not feeling inspired. It's a nice practice but I just don't have time. I know that's an excuse. You know that I know that's an excuse. It's just not working. I'm still smoking. I’m feeling really discouraged. I think I just really need to stop the retreat.” Then there was another letter from the same inmate that was dated two days later. He said, "Actually, this should have been part of the first letter, but if it had been then I wouldn't have written the first letter. Right after I wrote that letter, all these other guys came and started asking me questions about practice. I don't know a lot, but I answered them the best I could, and I realized that any answer that I gave them was because I had practiced. If I give up the retreat now, I'm not only hurting myself but I'm hurting all these other people who come and ask me Dharma questions. I'm cheating them, too, if I give up the retreat. So I just can't do that."

Isn't that nice? He's back in there!

(Student) I think, too, that one of the things I've always gotten a sense about with the inmates is that they're not [unable to hear a few words], because they have this radar that can sense when somebody is making something up. If he's going to share something he knows, it's going to have to be from a place of where he knows, because he can't just go off the top of his head and make himself sound important. Those guys have got these little antennas that can go up and they know baloney when they hear it! That's the biggest thing I've gotten from these letters is that these guys just have got "truth" antennas at this point in their lives.

Question and Answer SessionSo, how are all of you? What's happening in your meditation?

Q. That's a very hard question to answer, because sometimes it can be so very, very boring. (L) And other times really, really incredibly interesting. [Unable to hear the rest of the question.]

Yes. And I think that's a comment that probably everybody who's doing the retreat from afar can really resonate with, that sometimes the meditation is incredibly interesting, and sometimes it is incredibly boring. It's at those times when you can really stop and look at our craving to be amused. We want our meditation to somehow entertain us. Even if what we're having is just incredible rages of anger, at least there's some feeling of "I" there, isn't there? “I'm having incredible rages of anger. There's something going on in my meditation.” But when you're just having these sessions where you say the mantra, then you're saying to yourself, "Yeah? And . .? How about some fireworks? Even some anger will do. Just something to entertain me awhile!” You can see how the mind works.

Q: I just have a couple technical questions. First of all, I become very weary in a hurry to really focus on the visualization and mantras at the same time. I find it very, very tiring. I was

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wondering when we do the clear light and then we visualize the lotus and the moon disc, and then we become Chenrezig, I find myself moving forward and stepping up onto the-

There's a lotus and moon seat, and then you step upon onto it! (L)

Q: I do! And then I can become Chenresig easily. I just find myself doing that. It doesn't seem quite legitimate.

No. (L) Because you're dissolving into emptiness, and then within that empty space… you're sitting on a chair right now. Can you visualize yourself, just ordinary Nan, sitting on the chair? Yeah.

Q: Well, I knew it wasn't, but I just involuntarily do it. Even though I know [unable to make out rest of question]. Just put the label, visualize Chenresig on the moon disc and then label it me?

Yeah. Well, the moon disc, the whole thing is your wisdom appearing in that way. As much as possible in your meditation on emptiness, you want to get rid of this, even subtle feeling of there being a "me" sitting there floating in space. Which is hard, because there always seems to be this "me" in our head, even if we take the head away. And the body away! There's just this, some amorphous thing that seems to have some form or shape that is "me," somewhere in space.

Q. [Indecipherable]

You're saying how it can be difficult to focus on emptiness and do the sadhana at the same time. You're Chenrezig radiating light and all these things. This is exactly what makes tantra quick, is that we're trying to train the mind that can perceive the "two truths" simultaneously; that can understand emptiness; and within emptiness also see the conventional truth. Actually, only a Buddha's mind can do that. So that's why it's hard, because until you're Buddha you can't really completely do that. One of the things that makes tantra quick is that you're trying to cultivate that while you're on the path. That's why in your meditation even you go back and forth between, and this is before you even get to the mantra, between, “Here’s Chenrezig” – dependent appearing Chenrezig – “and Chenrezig’s empty.” Chenrezig’s empty but appears. He appears but he’s empty. You see those two; you go back and forth. It's like in the "Three Principal Aspects of the Path" when it talks about seeing dependent arising and emptiness as complimentary and not contradictory. That's what we're trying to do. It's hard, because only a Buddha can do it. We're training the mind.

Q. You're saying that we go back and forth between that, not just . . . ?

Well, stay with one. If you're meditating on yourself as Chenrezig (in your case, you're just realizing Chenrezig in front), then stay with that as much as you can. But then sometimes you might think, "Oh, and also Chenrezig is empty. He appears, but he's also empty. He's empty, but he also appears.”

You were saying that sometimes it's tiring doing the mantra and the visualization at the same time. Like I've been saying, you can in one session concentrate on one with the other in the

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background, and go back and forth between them. It's interesting to see how in our life we can multi-task. We can talk to somebody and have our own internal conversation going on at the same time, can't we?

Q. I find it's much easier to . . . I can hear the mantra in my head without saying it; and to do the visualization just hearing it.

Oh, yeah, that's fine!'

Q. That's fine?

That's fine.

Q. And then the mala?

Some people find malas useful because holding the prayer beads can help you keep track. Every time you go around you're out in La La Land by the time you reach your guru bead, and it's like, "Oh, yeah, I've got to come back and start again.” So for some people, using the mala is very good because it grounds them, holding something in their hand, and it gives them something to help them "check in" every so often to see if they're still concentrating. For other people, using the mala becomes a distraction. So I think you have to see whether it helps you or doesn't help you, and then do accordingly.

Q. Because it definitely distracts me. I'd rather do my mala in conjunction with my Lamrim.

Actually what you want to do, is when you're doing the Lamrim meditation, not do the mantra at that time. If it's a time when you're counting mantra and you want to do Lamrim during that time, because it keeps you from getting distracted to all sorts of other things or getting bored, then doing the Lamrim at that time with the mantra is good. But if you're just going to do Lamrim meditation, then it's better to just do your Lamrim meditation.

Q. [Indecipherable]

Especially when you're doing retreat now, even just a little bit of Lamrim probably gives you a lot to contemplate. What else is happening?

Q. Well, I've been all over the board this week between sloth and torpor and excitement. (L) I was hoping that some of the negative karma of sleepiness that I've had so badly last year would somehow dissipate, but it's come back quite ferociously in the past few weeks. I have to spend a lot of the session calling myself back, calling myself back, keeping myself awake. The sleepiness, it's just incredible how quickly it happens. I have to just continually - and not give myself a hard time about it. It's really, really a challenge for me because every 30 seconds I'm gone… It' not just a little nodding off. It's almost to the point . . . [indecipherable]. (L)

Then in the afternoons I'm into to my list-making again. A few things that have come up, about that little note on the counter about the apology [indecipherable], the whole experience. So I

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ended up trying to put it with that part of the Lamrim that is "factors that bring on and underlie the disturbing attitudes and negative emotions" and to go through those questions and to find out what it is about certain people that trigger certain very strong negative emotions in me? And what is the habituated pattern, and then the inappropriate attention that starts feeding into that habituation. There are very particular personality types for me that really get those things going in me very, very strongly. I try to use these really strong memories and I try to figure out what it is about particular people, and habituated ways that I think about them, and inappropriate attention to those negative ways, and how that cycles and cycles in my mind. And then brings up an enemy that I just can't shake. It's amazing how there's still a lot of energy behind that. So I really want to spend some time this week . . . and also other people that have been in my life that have similar kind of energetics and stuff. I want to really find out what it is about certain people that just sets me off so strongly, and what the pattern is; how the inappropriate attention feeds that, and how I can break that cycle, find some coping mechanisms and some preventative measures for myself.

Ven. Chodron: I think that's a very good thing. You're saying that you want to see what it is in certain other kinds of people that trigger things in you. You're using that meditation about the factors that stimulate the arisal of afflictions, and that's very good to do that. You might also try posing the questions, "What is it in me that is sensitive to certain things that other people do?” In other words, what is MY button.

Q. Yeah, and that's where I think it's starting to go around, because I'm like, "What is it about you, what are you - "

Don't phrase it, "What is it about you that bugs me?” Instead, "What is it about me that gets bugged?"

Q. No, that's what I'm saying, in "you" I mean "me.” What is it about you that's getting all these buttons pushed, and why are they so big around certain people. And why are you still swimming around in those feelings? I mean, it's been awhile. They're just like - I can call them up like it's yesterday. What is it inside of me that wants to hold on to those really strong negative emotions?

There you have the object of negation in your emptiness meditation!

Q. That's a good one!

That's it! (L)

Q. It's pretty big. (L)

But what is it in ME that is so reactive? Also, what can be helpful when you see these patterns; this can be helpful to even sit down and write. Because I don't know about you, but I have a whole system of how they work for me. First this thought comes; then this thought; then this thought; then this thought; then this thought. I have the whole way that the argument develops that ends in anger, and ends in a certain kind of frustration. For me, it's more frustration than anger, and this feeling of, "Oh, I want to do something to change it, but I can't!” But it's a very

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systematic thing. And it's just one of those kinds of things where you just fill in a few conditions, and the rest - "

Q. Like a flow chart?

Yeah, or like a computer, where you just -

Q. Auto fill-in the form?

Yeah. "Dear so-and-so," and you just put in a few other details and it's a standard letter that comes out? Well, that's exactly the way it is for me. You fill in the name and the particular situation, but the whole letter is exactly the same. It's very interesting to sit and write it out. You can write the whole thing out, and it always comes to the exact same unhappy conclusion, where you feel stuck. And it's like, "Huh. Why am I doing this?” The Buddha was very helpful in asking us to look at the defects; what are the disadvantages of getting stuck in this way of thinking. I go through this whole thing and I always wind up at the same miserable mental state. So that already is a disadvantage. (L) It's like, why do I even start the whole thing? Because I know what the mental state I'm going to end up in is.

Q. It affects the whole session. It affects the whole day. It affects the whole view. The whole day’s gone.

Right. It's an incredible waste of time. It creates negative karma. It obscures us from getting Dharma understanding. It affects the people we're around. And to sit there and really go through - and it can be really helpful to write it out, too - all the disadvantages of this pattern of thinking.

Q. (Second student) But at the same time, you need that strong sense to come up, because you have to investigate it. You need it to come up.

Q. (First student) "Oh, this is the object to be negated,” I didn’t use it that way. It was just stewing and recreating the whole scenario. I didn't use it dharmically; I was using to feed this stuff, exaggerate it.

Q. You need it, but it's totally stressing at the same time because you can't control it.

That's why you do the meditation on emptiness, you explore that. Who is that person? Who is that person that I get so upset with? Who is that? Where’s the person in there?

Q. (Second student) It's funny, because I use you all the time now, because you're sitting right there next to me. If I get bored with my own self, sometimes. You're sitting right there, and I'll look at you and (L) I can't ever find you, either! So it's a funny thing. You can't ever find anything. You can't find anything. But you can keep going and going and going and going . . . And it really can be very interesting, but it takes a particular mind to get interested in it, and to continue it on.

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Q. (First student) That's where I've been this week. I do have to say that I've really just been taking the Lamrim and just chewing on each one of those topics.

Good.

Q. (First student) I don't think I've ever done that before. I kind of flow through the cycle, every day doing one different, and I don't get into it the same way that I have. And still listening to the Three Principles - this is still after the karma talks. And thinking about the causes. That whole experience and results about having the results of habituated, negative ways of thinking that come back and haunt you again and again. This is the one that is most dangerous, and the one that's most detrimental, because it just continues the cycle. How do I break the causes? How do I break the pattern that's continuing to create this same miserable state of mind that comes up every time in every situation? How hooked I've been to negative thinking and inappropriate attention on looking at other people's qualities and just exaggerating them, really, out of proportion.

Anybody else?

Q. So, I'm wondering about namtog.

Namtog. Okay.

Q. Here's my questions. It's kind of two things. Also I'm wondering about, I think the word is selwa or clarity. I used to think that namtog was discursive thought, like ruminating, that kind of thing. But now I'm wondering if it also includes even conception itself and the labeling, designating things. Everything above clarity. (L)

This Tibetan word "namtog" has a variety of meanings. Sometimes it's translated as discursiveness; sometimes it's translated as conceptualization. It has different translations. Lama Yeshe used to call it superstition. It has many meanings. On one level it's just conceptualization and can be accurate conceptualization. Another meaning of the word, it’s the kind of mental chatter that goes on in the mind, the scattering thoughts and this kind of stuff. Another meaning of it is all this inappropriate attention, and all the stories that our mind makes up. This is when Lama called it superstition: all these stories that we make up, that we then believe in. Like where you're busy reacting to a certain person or a certain type of person, all those stories in the mind: that's all namtog. Another meaning of namtog can also refer to the conceptualization of true existence. So it can refer to the grasping at true existence as well, because that's a real big superstitious kind of thought. That's a much deeper layer of it.

Q. That's there's an "I."

There's a solid, inherently existent "I.” The word namtog, it’s used different ways at different times, so it can have any or all of those different meanings.

Q. What isn’t namtog because that kind of covers alot (L)

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What isn’t namtog. The watermelon. Watermelon isn't namtog. There are a lot of things that aren't namtog.

Q. But in your mind?

In your mind, any kind of direct perceiver is not namtog. Then depending upon how it's used. When it’s used in this way of superstitious thought, then it’s differentiated out from, let’s say when you’re hearing teachings and thinking about them. That wouldn't be considered namtog. When you're using namtog in the sense of all the stories you make up about, "Why I like this person" and "Why I don't like that person.” What's interesting is that in the word namtog; the “tog” part, another translation for the "tog" part is investigation. There is a certain investigative quality in namtog but when we're ruminating on something, we're investigating in a totally foolish way.

Q. So that word "selwa?"

It means clear, clarity.

Q. Luminous?

Yeah, it's sometimes translated as luminous, too.

Q. So that's considered the conventional . . . ?

Yeah. The conventional nature of the mind, any mind, is called sel jing rigpa. "Sel" as in “clarity” or luminous, "jing" means “and”, and "rigpa" means “aware”, or knowing. Any kind of mind, whether it's virtuous or nonvirtuous, whether it's a correct, a valid cognizer, or whether it’s an invalid one, they all have, just because they're mind, they have those two qualities. But when we're angry, because it’s mind, there is clarity and awareness; but then you have the whole thing of anger in there that pollutes the whole thing.

Q. When in meditation we have a subject and an object you're looking at the object, but now in this meditation you go back and look at the subject?

The subject, yeah.

Q. That's the meditation to do that?

Yeah.

Q. Are there others?

That's where you're really looking at the clarity and awareness, when you're looking at the subject: what is cognizing. Another way to do that, which is also written in the outline, is you try to focus on that clarity, and when thoughts come you're aware of, you have this observation,

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“Where are they coming from, where are they existing, where are they going to?” And that can help you see that kind of clarity.

Q. Where is that written, what is that from?

That is the conventional Mahamudra. When you talk about the conventional nature of the mind, that's where that meditation comes from.

Q. But is it written in Tsongkhapa? [Indecipherable]

It's not in the Lamrim that I can remember, but in the Gelug Mahamudra text. It's in there. But Tsongkhapa is also very clear about that, to be aware when you're doing that, that even though you might get a sense of spaciousness and nothingingness there, that's not the emptiness of inherent existence. It's just that lack of discursive thought, and within that lack of discursive thought you can see the clarity and awareness. But that's not the lack of inherent existence. So Tsongkhapa is very clear about differentiating the conventional nature of the mind and the ultimate nature of the mind.

Q. So that kind of investigation by itself wouldn't really lead to a realization of emptiness.

Just on itself, no, it doesn't lead to the realization of emptiness, but it does help you calm the mind considerably and give you more of an understanding of what the mind is. So when you do look for an inherently existent mind, at least you know a little more about what the qualities of the conventional mind are. You can look at Alex's book, the The Kargyu Gelug Tradition of Mahamudra. It's by His Holiness and Alex Berzin.

Q. In Kindness, Clarity and Insight there is a little chapter on the luminous mind, and His Holiness talks about a meditation to do, but I haven't really placed it in context. I could read about it in the Sakya tradition and I read these pages a number of times; but all the traditions are the same but their methods are slightly different. What really makes sense to me is that these things that we're getting to are things that words don't work for. So all these traditions have different words. I don't know if this is true, I'm just checking this out. But it seems better to read it in the Gelugpa tradition.

Sometimes it depends on the individual and what vocabulary you're familiar with.

Q. Because it didn't seem inconsistent.

No, it wouldn't be inconsistent.

Q. Deshung Rinpoche says their system came of ?? through the ?? tradition. He explained this . . .

Actually, Sakya predates Gelug.

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Q. Yeah, but this particular aspect of it, he says they're the same. I mean, I can show you these pages. I don't know enough to evaluate this, but his writing on it is . . . I don't know, I found the whole thing helpful to read. It answered a lot of the things I've been thinking about. They were all discussed in a few of these talks that Deschung Rinpoche gave. But I also don't want to mix systems. I wanted to read the Gelugpa tradition about how they go about this. The Sakyas, it's kind of laid out there; it's like there are these steps - boom, boom, boom - in the LamDre. This is the clarity of mind, and there's this one. They also think of it differently. They always use the words clarity and emptiness. He says that both of these are actually (this is my understanding) ultimate; but we call this one conventional. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. Because if you look at the mind - conventional nature is clarity, ultimate nature is emptiness - if you want to see the “two truths” simultaneously: you want to see the clarity and awareness aspect of mind, and the emptiness of the mind as not contradictory.

Q. Is this the same as what you were saying about where you would see conventional truth and ultimate truth at the same time?

I think so. But I haven't studied LamDre, so this is my guess from what you've said.

Q. Thank you. I did have this one other question. There's this verse from The 37 Practices of Bodhisattvas: "With clarity of mind, conviction in the teaching arises," but that's not selwa?

That's referring to another kind of clarity. It means the absence of namtog, basically. (L) When you have clarity of mind, when you can see things clearly, when you're probing power is very clear and you're not all distracted by all these thoughts and all these wrong beliefs and wrong conceptions, then you can see how true the teachings are because you see how they apply to your life.

Q. You have the tools at that moment.

Right, right. So there clarity has a different meaning.

Q. So you couldn't really say, then, what did you call it, the nature of the mind, is clarity and awareness?

The conventional nature of the mind is clarity and awareness.

Q. So if you have that, and it's a pie, and everything you stack on top of it, is namtog, then? (L)

If you looked at it from the viewpoint of tantra, because they talk about the extremely subtle mind, that arises at the time of death, or that you're trying to make arise by absorbing all the winds into the central channel. So that extremely subtle mind is nonconceptual. So it's just clarity and awareness: all of the conceptualizations that are present with grosser levels of mind have ceased, because the winds, the energy winds on which they rely, have been absorbed.

Q. Is that why death is such an opportune time?

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Exactly. That's why death is such an opportune time, because at the time of death, because the physical body is losing its ability to function. Then the gross consciousnesses, the sense consciousnesses (eye, ear, nose, tongue) and our mental consciousness with its proliferations; it can't function because the energy-wind which supports it, is dissolving at that point. And so the mind gets more and more subtle, and more and more nonconceptual. Even after the breath stops the consciousness could still be in the body. At that point, actually, when the breath is stopping is when the very gross conceptual processes are really absorbing at the time, and you're going more and more nonconceptual. Now if you can use that clear light of death, which is nonconceptual and very subtle, and use it to realize emptiness, then it becomes extremely powerful for eliminating all of the afflictions, and the seeds of the afflictions, and the latencies of the afflictions. That's another reason why the highest class tantra, it can be very quick that way, because you're dealing with such a subtle mind.

Q. [First part of question indecipherable] The “clear light” of death. I don't understand that. Is that the same as the clarity and awareness? Is it different in different systems.

The words “clear light” can have so many different meanings. Do you see that we're coming upon this again and again? All these words have different meanings in different context. Sometimes "clear light" refers to emptiness. Sometimes "clear light" refers to the clarity and awareness of the gross mind. Sometimes "clear light" refers to this extremely subtle mind, the clear light of death. So there are different kinds of clear light.

Q. I've been reading a John [last name?] book on tantra, and he described the light as being so intense that most people flee from it, the clear light; it's just so -

Q. (Another student) The clear light of death?

Q. (First student) Yeah.

That's not how I've heard it described, and I'm not sure if John [last name?] is the author I'd rely on.

Q. It's a very, very old book. It's fascinating, actually. But most people just flee from it and one has to have to have a lot of training . . . I was thinking, gosh, I should meditate under a sun lamp for a few years. (L)

Because actually, the analogy they give for the clear light of death is like the sky at dawn on a very, very clear day. You don't have the white moonlight any more, you don't have the red of the dawn, but it's just incredibly empty.

Q. Well, that sounds easier, more appealing, I mean.

Yeah. That's how the clear light of death is usually described. But again, we're using external things, sensory objects, to describe a mental state, so it's going to be flawed, isn't it? Because all of the words that we use are all words that have to do physical things, that we then try to move

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into mental space. So we talk about grasping at inherent existence. Grasping is something you do physically, isn't it? You grasp a cup, grasp it and hold onto it for dear life. But then, that's a physical thing, and then we're using the word for a mental state, which is totally different than physical grasping, but we're trying to move it in so it has that thing. That's why these words become very difficult.

Q. That's what [indecipherable] Rinpoche was saying in this thing I read. He was saying that words don't work for this, but they have to be used. That's why there are always analogies and stories, something that the mind can grasp.

Review of Last Session – Discussion of The Essence of Refined GoldShall we go into the Third Dalai Lama's text? Last week we were talking about the qualities of a spiritual master, and we went through the ten qualities that we look for in a Mahayana teacher. We were saying that before we choose somebody as our teacher, that's the time to do this kind of investigation and observation to see if they have these qualities. Then we were also saying it can be difficult to find somebody with all ten, so if you can't find with ten, then with nine, or with eight, whatever. Most important is that the person care more about future lives than this life, cares more about others than themself, and has some respect or feeling that things do not exist the way they appear.

Text: The Essence of Refined Gold (The Qualities of a Disciple) Now, the qualities of a disciple. The Third Dalai Lama says“The disciple should have three fundamental qualities:

1. sincerity2. intelligence able to discriminate between beneficial and misleading forces on the path3. intense longing to gain spiritual understanding and experience

As well, he or she should have a fourth quality—appreciation for the Dharma and the teacher.”

So let's start just by looking at these. And when we're looking at these qualities, these are qualities that we want to try and develop in ourselves. It's not like we look at ourselves and say, "Well, I don't have that one, I don't have that one, I don't have that one," so give up. Instead, "That one could use some improving, so how can I improve this quality?” Because the more we can make ourselves into better disciples, the more we're going to benefit from having contact with teachers.

So sincerity is the first one. Somebody has a genuine interest in the dharma, they're sincere. We want to have a sincere motivation for practice. It's not that we want to sit in the front row; it's not because we want to be the tea shop guru; it's not because we want to look like a holy person to somebody else; it's not because we want to impress somebody else with our spiritual knowledge; it's not because we want to hang around somebody who's holy and squeeze all of their goodness out of them, hoping that we'll catch some of it. Some people really, they're like leeches on the teachers: “Let's pull this energy out of them. Maybe I'll get some of it.” But rather, having a sincere wish to learn and practice and attain the Dharma goals.

The second quality is "intelligence, able to discriminate between beneficial and misleading forces on the path.” Intelligence is very important on the path. It doesn't mean the intelligence

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that they measure by IQ tests, it's not like that; but it's the intelligence that can discern and examine and analyze and probe the teachings. So that you don't just listen and say, "Oh, yeah, I believe that," or, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense," but you really want to probe it and investigate it. The term that is sometimes translated as "intelligence" is also translated as "wisdom" or as "knowledge.” It's the word "sherab.” So we want to have this ability when we hear teachings to really think about them.

Actually, they talk about two types of disciples. One is the person who follows on faith, and then the other one is the person who is said to be of higher faculties, who follows based on wisdom. So the person who follows on faith will hear a dharma teaching or they will read a text and they will say, "Oh, that text was written by Maitreya, so it must be true," and they won't do a lot of analysis. Or, "That teaching was given by my teacher who I have a lot of respect for, so it must be true.” Because of faith in the person who gave the teaching then they have faith in the teaching itself. That's good, there's nothing wrong with that. But what would be good would be if we added a little more wisdom or discernment or intelligence to it. So it's not just a thing of, "Oh, I have faith, I believe that.” That faith is good. You are open to the teachings.But you don't necessarily understand the teachings very well because you haven't probed and investigated. The person of high faculties is one who really thinks: "Why did they say that?", "My teacher said this," or "Maitreya said this," or "Tsongkhapa said this.” Well, "Why did they say this? Why didn't they say that? What in the world did they mean by these words? How does this compare here compared to there? How does that apply to me?” So that person's really investigating, and that's said somebody of high faculties. That person is one who has this kind of intelligence.

Here they are talking specifically about the intelligence to discern what to practice and what to abandon. So you hear lots of teachings and, “What do I practice and what do I abandon on the path?” It doesn't mean, "Oh, I practice this practice now and another practice later.” It's not that kind of, "What do I practice?" But in looking at your own mind, what do you practice in your own mind and what do you abandon in your own mind; what qualities do you want to enhance and how do you go about doing that; and what qualities in your own mind do you want to abandon and how do you go about doing that?

Then the third is an "intense longing to gain spiritual understanding and experience.” This person, again, has this intense longing, so the Dharma is really important to them. It's not just a hobby. It's not just something that they do on occasion when they have a little bit of extra time. It's not something that they skip over when they're tired or when they're busy with their social life. But instead the sincere disciple - this kind we want to be - has a real sincere longing for spiritual understanding, and the purification and the wisdom that comes from that. So that gets developed, I think, by meditating on death, meditating on all the Lamrim topics. Basically, they wake us up to, “What is our potential?” and “Are we using it properly?” So to really have that attitude where our spiritual practice is the foremost thing in our life. And the more we have that, then the easier practice becomes, because the more important Dharma is to us then Dharma practice becomes easier. Your mind automatically wants to do it. Then if you take precepts and you have to skip breakfast and skip dinner, it's not a problem because you want to do that. Or if you come to the Abbey, you give up a certain degree of your own individual freedom coming to live in community. There's a daily schedule. You have to follow the daily schedule. And there are rotas for cooking and cleaning and doing certain things, and there are all these things that you

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do. So you give up the freedom that you have, but you're willing to do that because you want another kind of freedom. That's the freedom that comes when you follow your spiritual yearning. You're able to learn the teachings and practice them and look at your own mind. So giving up the things that you need to give up to come and live at the Abbey is not a big deal, because your spiritual longing is what's important in your life. But if that's not important, then the idea of living at the Abbey, and, "Oh, I can't just go to town when I feel like getting some cookies? And I can't go out and buy a latte when I want to? And I have to be at meditation at whatever hour it is every morning? And I have to eat at these times, I can't just eat whenever I want to?” Then those things become incredibly big deals. And a person can feel, "Oh, the Abbey, oh, I can't stand it, it's too confining.” That's because they lack that genuine spiritual yearning, because when you have that spiritual yearning, these other things are not such a big deal to you. We see this a lot, don't we?

Then the fourth quality is "appreciation for the Dharma and the teacher.” Clearly if you're going to invest your time in learning and studying the Dharma and being a good disciple, you have to have respect for the Dharma and the teacher. Otherwise you're not going to have any interest in even being around, because you have more respect for the movie stars or respect for the sports heroes. So you want to look at the basketball game or the fashion show, or whatever it is. But when you cultivate the attitude of respect for the Dharma and respect for the teacher, then again, that really inspires you to learn and to practice.

Lots of times in the lamrim when they talk about relating to the teacher and what a powerful object of karma our spiritual teachers are, for either creating good karma or for creating bad karma, sometimes we get this feeling of, "Well, you know, they emphasize respecting the teacher so much. Well, that's just because it was taught by a teacher and they want someone to respect them. There's just setting it up all for themselves so that they receive some respect and honor and offerings.” But if you really do the meditation, then you see that when we respect our teachers we're the ones who benefit from it. With a very superficial mind we might thing, "Well, our teacher benefits by having disciples who respect them.” But how does our teacher benefit? Maybe they get some cookies, or they get some apples, or they get gazillions of e-mails to answer. You get something out of it. But who actually is the one that benefits when we respect our teacher? Because we more respect, the more we make ourselves an open and receptive vessel to receive the teachings. Whereas when our mind is sitting there going, "Gee, this is a very boring topic. I wish my teacher had gone to - what that's school that teaches you how to give speeches? Why didn't they take voice lessons or learn how to do public speaking properly?” Or, "Gee, I think they get confused about points. They don't tell enough jokes, so I get bored.” Or, "They always are this, or that, or the other thing.” We find so many things to pick at, but who's the person who loses out when we pick faults with our teacher? We're the one who loses out, because then when we listen to the teachings, we don't listen very attentively, we have all sorts of doubt and skepticism. When we have respect for our teacher and respect for the teachings then we value the opportunity.

Similarly, too, with the teachings, if we don't respect the teachings then it's kind of like, "Hmm, why am I listening to this talk anyway, there's such a good TV program on? Why don't I go home and watch that.” Or, “ There's so many other things. I really need to do my laundry, and just think instead of going to this retreat over the weekend I could stay home, I could do my

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laundry, I could clean my house, I could balance my checkbook, all these things that I've been wanting to get done, I can just stay home and do them all and not go to the teaching.” That's the conclusion you arrive at when there's a lack of respect for the Dharma. Because, "That's not going to bring me so much happiness by Sunday night. But having all these little chores done, oh, then I'll feel like my plate's really clear, I'll feel so good.” We tell ourselves these stories, don't we?

Q. Why do they say "live a moderate distance"? (L)

Sometimes they say that if you a very uncontrolled mind it's better to live a moderate distance from your teacher because when you live with somebody all the time, then automatically the mind starts picking faults. It doesn't matter who it is. If even the Buddha moved in with you, you would start picking faults, "He's radiating too much light and I want to sleep late today." (L) "And he cares for all these sentient beings, and they're calling the house and I want to be left alone." (L) So whoever we live with, our mind will find faults with. So if we have a very uncontrolled mind, they say keep a little bit of distance; so that you protect your own mind from becoming a namtog factory in relationship to your teacher. But it also can become an incredibly good learning experience, too, because when you live with your teacher, you're there all day, and things get pointed out to you, and you have the opportunity to see how your teacher handles all these different circumstance; so you get an idea of what it really looks like to apply the practice to daily life situations. You get a whole bunch of teachings that you're never going to get if you just show up one night a week for teachings.

Q. One time you said (I thought about this a number of times; I think I was kind of the devotional type) something about people that rely on devotion after about three or four years sometimes it doesn’t go so well. But you never said why..

So when you feel like you're a person of devotion and you remember me saying that people of devotion sometimes fizzle after awhile. I think it depends on the level of devotion that you have. Some people have more or less devotion. And it depends on the kind of devotion that one has. Because some devotion you have because of having knowledge and having wisdom, so that gives you confidence and faith because you've seen qualities of the Dharma, you've seen the qualities of the teacher, so that enhances your faith. That kind of faith and devotion is quite good because it's based on some kind of investigation. When we have the kind of faith of, "Ohhhhhhhh, such a holy teacher - and he looked at me! Ahh, ohhhhhhh!” I'm dramatizing it, but it abounds. Then after awhile when the teachers doesn't look at you then you go, "Huh. I thought this person was so compassionate, so loving. Now they have so many other disciples that they're taking care of and they have no time for me, and they don't look at me anymore. They just give me jobs to do and I don't want to do those jobs.” With that kind of devotion somebody often fizzles. Or if somebody has the kind of devotion, like you hear a certain teaching, and you say, "Oh, yeah, Buddha said that. I believe it makes sense. Fine.” But you don't analyze. Somebody else comes along and gives you a whole different religious philosophy or theology, and because you haven't examined you go, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense. Maybe there is a cosmic mind and a primal substance and God created the world and, yeah, that kind of makes sense.” And then your faith shifts to something else because your faith hasn't been based on actual understanding.

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I usually make that comment about faith because at the beginning I used to criticize myself a lot and say, "Oh, everybody else has so much faith in the teachers.” I would see these Westerners and they're all, "Ohhhhh," and had so much faith in the teachers and faith in mos. They all want to have these divinations done. They have faith in mos. And they have so much faith in pujas and faith in blessed pills, and all this kind of stuff; and I'm just like, "That just doesn't do it for me.” And I’d go, “Oh Chodron. You don't have any faith. Here are all these people and they all seem oh, so happy and full of faith.” And you're sitting there saying, “How do you know that enlightenment is possible? How do you know that Buddha exists?” I went through a whole retreat, "How do I know Buddha exists? Why am I following this practice, anyway? How do I know enlightenment's possible? How do I know there's Dharma? How do I know there's Sangha?" And just all these kinds of questions coming up, and then I'm looking at the other people who are just, "Ohhhhhhhhhh...." I'm just really full of too many questions and too many doubts, and I used to criticize myself. It took me many years, like maybe twenty, to realize that after twenty years I was still there, with all my questions and all my doubts - maybe slightly fewer questions or deeper levels of doubts, or something - but a lot of people who had been so in love with the teachers and everything at the beginning you don't see anymore. That woke me up. Don't criticize yourself because you don't know, you don't know in the long term.

Q. Do you think because you really thought about that a lot - is enlightenment possible and are these things possible - then when people would criticize you for choosing the life that you did, you were more firm?

Oh, yeah, definitely. I was more firm and confident, definitely. If I hadn't thought of all those things, then all the arguments that people gave me about why I shouldn't be ordained, they would have made sense to me. Because from a worldly perspective, “Oh if you ordain…”. My grandmother said, "If you ordain then what's going to happen when you're old? You're not going to have a husband, you're not going to have kids. Who's going to take care of you when you're old?" And my parents said, "You've got this whole college education, and what are you doing with it? It's just a waste." I remember one time when I went to buy cloth for robes in India that the guy who owned the store said, "Oh, but you're so pretty! You shouldn't deny yourself." (L) It was the only time anyone said I was pretty. (L) So if you don't think well about why you're following the path and what the benefits are, and what your long term goals are, and what happens at death time and after death, and what really is happiness; if you don't think about those things then all these things that other people say, they make sense. It's like, "Oh, yeah, I'd better go out and earn some money, otherwise I'm going to be old and I'm not going to have any money. I'm going to a bag lady out on the street in Newport in freezing cold and nobody will love me. I'll be an old person and they'll stick me in an old age home, and stick tubes in me, and that'll be it. So I really need to have some money. A husband wouldn't be bad, he could take care of me when I'm old, and some kids. People say kids bring you so much happiness. Then I have something to leave, my mark that I existed on this planet because I have kids. 'I was' because there's somebody with my genes carrying on, or somebody with my name carrying on, or somebody that I imbued with all these good values who I'm going to make do whatever I wanted to do but couldn't do - I'm going to make them do it, whether that's happiness or not!" (L)

But when you really think about, "What is the mind? Does it cease at the time of death? What is the body? What is the relationship between the body and mind? What happens when you die?

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What really is happiness?” All these people that you see around you that are so busy doing so many things, are they really happy? “What is human potential?” Is it really the greatest use of your human potential to become a CEO of a Fortune 500 company? Is that the use of human potential, to be able to make bigger and better widgets and bigger and better bombs? “What really is the meaning of my life?" When you think about those things and you explore the Four Noble Truths, you think about them, you realize, "Wow, the Four Noble Truths are really true. Buddha knew what he was talking about." This isn't just a nice fairy tale that you tell yourself sometimes when you're feeling a little spiritually down. This is serious business because if I don't practice, death could be at any time and am I really prepared to die? What kind of karma have I created and where am I going to be reborn? If I'm reborn in a lower realm what in the world am I going to do? If I have a lower rebirth, what in the world am I going to do?" You can't do anything. Forget about benefiting sentient beings, you can't even help yourself in a lower rebirth. Then you realize, "This is serious stuff." Then if people talk to you and they say, "Oh, why don't you get a life, get a boyfriend, and blah blah blah," it just doesn't mean anything to you; because you see that they're looking at it 100% from the viewpoint of "This life is all there is and happiness is what you get through your senses." That's the limit of their worldview. Then when they say all these things, you see why they're saying it, you understand what their worldview is, and you're very clear about how you don't have that worldview. Then you say, "Thank you very much," and you just go on living the way you're living, and say, "How did I ever get to be so fortunate that I have the clarity of mind to be able to see the Dharma as true." Because how many people come to dharma teachings and they don't have the clarity of mind to see that the Dharma as true? Or they see it's true but they don't have the inner strength to get into the practice. Then when you look at, "How did I ever get so lucky. This is unbelievable that I have this opportunity; that I'm not just sitting next to Manju (the cat) sleeping on the sofa all day.”

Q. I would imagine you've run across some kind of weird circumstances, though, being in your role in life. Some strange circumstances once in a while, or no?

Sure. Yeah.

Q. Doesn't that bother you sometimes?

Life is one weird circumstance. It doesn't matter whether you're ordained or not ordained, you run into weird circumstances, don't you? People get married and divorced, and then when they're getting divorced they're going, "How in the world was it that I married this person? What was I thinking when I married them?" Well, you were obviously thinking something, and from the viewpoint of who you were then you saw things entirely differently than from the viewpoint of who you are now looking back on it. So, yeah, everybody encounters weird circumstances. That's nothing new. Everybody encounters somewhere where you go and you don't fit in and people look at you weird. If you ever travel outside this country even as a layperson; you go to India and people who have never seen white people look at you. Or, "What in the world is that?"

Q. Not that so much. I mean, with Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, I've met a couple of people who have been weird, some of things they talk about, I just think, “I've got to get out of here!" (L)

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So now you're talking about people who are Tibetan Buddhist and who say really weird things. Yes, there are those. Some Americans. Because in Tibetan society there's much more social pressure. Here people sometimes (and you have this in any religion) who see life a little bit differently are attracted towards religion, and some of them have this genuine spiritual yearning and some of them have emotional problems. There was a just an article in Newsweek about some guy in Florida who says he's Christ, and he's also the Antichrist, and he completely believes it. Any religion you go to, you sometimes meet people who say and believe really weird things. So that's nothing new. Even you can go to Law School or study PoliSci or go the White House (L), people say some pretty weird things in the White House, don't they? (L) There's no getting away from that. “Yes, we're going to get the world to love us by dropping more bombs.” That's a pretty weird way of thinking, I think.

Q. Just to follow Karri's question, is it difficult being a spiritual mentor, dealing with the projections that get thrown at you; working with people, all their aspirations, all their projections, what their fantasies are about spiritual mentors?

Oh, yeah, they project all that stuff.

Q. How you can still stay with the compassionate bodhicitta when people are just being unrealistic and provocative and demanding everything else?

So when they're projecting stuff onto you as a spiritual practicioner. Sometimes they think you're Holy Beyond Thou and want stuff from you. Sometimes they're incredibly critical and demanding. But you know, whoever you are in life, whatever you do, people are projecting stuff on you. So this has its own particular variety of projection. You just have to learn to let it go. Okay, some people overestimate my qualities. Well, if that helps them in the Dharma, that's good, but I know I don't have those qualities. Some people pick at me because they want me to have qualities I don't have, what can I do? That's coming from their mind. It's not coming from me.

Q. So part of what I see since I've been here at the Abbey is that, as I start to gain the understanding that all of it is coming from my side, and that really does help when projections start - by anybody, not just a spiritual teacher: fellow residents, guests, visiting teachers, the cleaners who are working on the house. It's such a big temptation to just not want to own where our feelings are coming from, where our expectations are coming from, and how much we have them in relationship to everybody. How we really want people to be very much the way we want them to be.

We definitely want them to be what we want them to be, at any particular time. Because what we want somebody else to be changes all the time, and they are supposed to be clairvoyant and read our mind, so that they know what we want them to be any particular time, and happily comply.

Q. Do you feel isolated sometimes being the only . . . I mean, you're the main head nun here. I would think your position would be sort of isolating.

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Yeah, sometimes it's isolating and sometimes it's not. That's why I go to these monastic conferences, and why sometimes I'll talk on the phone with some of the other monastics here and there and keep in touch with them. Hopefully as time goes on we'll have more monastics. You just get used to it after awhile. It's like, "Oh, I'm not perfect in all their eyes again today." (L) The next day, "Oh, I'm still not perfect in their eyes," the next day, "Oh! They're still not happy with me." (L)

Q. Actually, I think Venerable Tarpa and I have had a few little jokes going; because we've been here at the Abbey and seen a few of our own little projections being thrown at us from people who come to visit; what a full-time resident at the Abbey, what type of quality, where we're supposed to be on the path at any given moment . . . it's been quite eye opening.

Okay, let's sit quietly.

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