CORRUPTION AND CRIME COMMISSION OF WESTERN ... May 2018...10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 7 Epiq (Public...

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. 1

Epiq (Public Examination)

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CORRUPTION AND CRIME COMMISSION

OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA

COMMISSIONER JOHN MCKECHNIE QC

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AT PERTH ON THURSDAY, 10 MAY 2018, AT 9.26 AM

COUNSEL:

MS TSE CHEE NEVILL

MR PAUL YOVICH SC

WITNESS: ANTHONY DARREN RASPA

SWORN AT 09.27 AM

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 2


THE COMMISSIONER: Please be seated.

THE ASSOCIATE: Mr Raspa, before we begin, it’s necessary

for you to take an oath. If you could please stand, take

the Bible and card in your right hand and read the oath out

aloud.

ANTHONY DARREN RASPA SWORN AT 09.27 AM:

THE ASSOCIATE: Thank you, you may be seated.

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Raspa, before we begin, I see you’ve

signed the notice to witnesses. Did you read it?---Yes.

And did you understand it?---Yes.

Ms Nevill will be counsel assisting and she will ask

questions on my behalf.

Mr Yovich?

YOVICH, MR: Commissioner, I seek leave to appear on

behalf of Mr Raspa.

THE COMMISSIONER: Leave, if necessary, is granted, and I

will give you the opportunity, should you wish, to ask him

any questions at the conclusion of the examination.

YOVICH, MR: Thank you, Commissioner.

NEVILL, MS: Thank you, Commissioner.

Please state your full name?---Anthony Darren Raspa.

Mr Raspa, the records of the Australian Securities and

Investments Commission list you as the Sole Director and

Secretary of TS Recruitment Proprietary Limited?---Yes.

And the registered business name for that is Trusted

Solutions IT?---Yes.

I’ll refer to that for brevity as TSIT from now on.

Mr Thomas has given to the Commission that TSIT was

established to provide recruitment services into the

mid-tier mining space. Do you agree that TSIT primarily

provides managed IT services and IT contractors?---Yes,

managed services.

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I’m having a little difficulty -

maybe due to age, I’m having difficulty hearing you. Could

you just raise your voice a little?---Yeah.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 3


And the same applies also to you, Ms Nevill.

NEVILL, MS: Yes, Commissioner.

So TSIT provides managed IT services?---Yes.

And IT contractors?---Yes.

And do you agree that you, Mr Thomas and Mr Noone are

equally involved in the company?---Yes.

So your role in TSIT is described as Service

Director?---Yes.

What does that entail?---So I would do operations and if

there was a problem with the customers, that would get

escalated to me for resolution.

What do you mean by “Operation”?---So day-to-day dealing

with the customers.

What’s your role in relation to engaging contractors?---Ah,

if we saw an opportunity, ah, we would engage the right

resource for the right role.

Could you be more specific about your role? Did you play

any role in introducing contractors to businesses?---Yes.

And what about introducing contractors to Horizon

Power?---No.

Who was responsible for that?---Paul.

Mr Peter Noone has given evidence to the Commission that

you, Mr Thomas and Mr Noone received dividends from

TSIT?---Yes.

About once every six months?---Um, 12 initially, then six

months after.

And that, those amounts were paid equally between the three

of you?---Yes.

Mr Noone’s evidence was that he pays your payment to an ANZ

bank account in your name?---Yes.

Mr Raspa, you were engaged at Horizon Power in July

2013?---Yes, end of financial.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 4


And you left in 2017?---Yes.

Can you give us an overview of the work you did while you

were at Horizon Power?---So I started there as a Project

Manager, working on various projects of the, ah, AMP, asset

management plan, and then later Program Manager, which

coordinated projects and, er, the people.

How many staff members did you manage?---I would estimate

about eight people.

And that was fairly consistent in your time at Horizon

Power?---It would go up and go down, ah, based on the work.

So what was the minimum number of staff you would have

managed?---I would say - I would have to guess, and that

would be six-ish.

And you mentioned earlier some projects that you were in

charge of. Can you give us an example of the few

projects?---Ah, we did a network refresh, ah, where the,

um, the core of the - the Horizon Power network was out of

maintenance, so we had to implement a, ah - an updated

network. There was video conferencing and collaboration

software that needed to be introduced, um, video

conferencing.

And that was sort of relevant to Horizon Power’s

telecommunication services?---Er, Horizon Power’s utility.

Sorry, you mentioned video conferencing, that’s an example

of tele - telecommunications?---Ah, it’s internal and it’s

collaboration.

We will just have a quick look at your contract, Mr Raspa.

That’s exhibit 2692.

2692^

NEVILL, MS: Now, this is a selection of preferred

consultants for IT consulting services. That

company - - -?---That’ll be on my screen?

Yes, it should be on your screen.

THE COMMISSIONER: You now have it?---Yes, sir.

NEVILL, MS: Can you see that document in front of

you?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 5


And at page 8 you’ll see that, at the bottom there, you’ve

signed on 25 July 2013?---Yes.

And the consultant’s name there is Raspa Contracting

Proprietary Limited?---Yes.

You’re the Sole Director and Secretary of Raspa

Contracting?---Yes.

And that was set up so you could provide consulting

services?---Correct.

At page 13, there’s clause 6 there that relates to conflict

of interest:

The contractor warrants that it has no conflict of

interest with Horizon Power and that none will arise

by the formation of the contract, and it shall ensure

that no conflict of interest with Horizon Power

arises during that contract.

And it goes on to say that:

If, despite the warranty, a conflict does arise

between the contractor and Horizon Power during the

contract, the contractor shall notify Horizon Power

in writing of the conflict.

Can you see that there?---Yes.

And if we turn to page 33, at schedule G5 it states that:

In accordance with clause A10, the consultant shall

examine and acquaint itself with the latest edition

of Horizon Power’s Code of Conduct and other policies

there.

Now, if we just scroll down to the bottom of that page -

thank you, Madam Associate.

That’s your signature, is it, Mr Raspa?---Yes.

Did you acquaint yourself with the policies set out

there?---I did not.

And what about later during your engagement, did you read

any codes of conduct or policies at Horizon Power?---I read

the IT Code of Conduct, and I can’t recall any others.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 6


In 2015, while you were still at Horizon Power, there was

another version of the Code of Conduct that was

implemented, and you signed that you had received and read

and agreed to comply with the updated version. I will just

show that to you quickly. It’s exhibit 2709.

2709^

NEVILL, MS: That’s your signature there?---Yes.

And it’s dated 23 - sorry, 29 March 2016?---Yes.

So you’ve probably already answered this question, but have

- did you take a chance to read the 2015 version?---I don’t

know, but I’ve signed it, yes.

Thank you. That can be taken down.

So you were given a delegated financial authority while you

were Program Manager at Horizon Power?---Yes.

And this was to the value of $50,000. I’ll just bring that

up for you. It’s exhibit 2703.

2703^

NEVILL, MS: Mr Raspa, can you see there that the

applicant’s name is your name?---Yes.

And the box that’s ticked in the approval - sorry, in the -

the delegation is 50,000, and on the following page you can

see that it’s been signed as Mr Thomas as your

manager?---Yes.

So Mr Thomas was your manager the entire time you were at

Horizon Power?---Yes.

And what did you use this financial delegation for?---So on

projects we would buy, ah, equipment and it would come

through to me to approve.

Did you engage contract staff?---I think so. I’m - I’m

unsure.

Did you sign off on purchase orders for contractors?---Yes.

And your contract was extended in 2015 and 16. I’ll show

you a letter, 2689.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 7


2689^

NEVILL, MS: It’s dated 28 June 2016. That’s a letter

from Mr Thomas to you confirming that the provision of

consultancy services agreement will be extended for a

further period?---Yes.

Did Mr Thomas approve all your contract extensions?---I

think he approved them. I went through Shane Vondeling to,

ah, organise it.

And what makes you think that Mr Thomas approved

them?---Ah, this letter.

So from July 2010 when you began to when you left, did you

work - - -?---What year, sorry?

2000 and - sorry, 13. Did you work fulltime at Horizon

Power?---Ah, I was a contract consultant, and there were

periods that I did not work fulltime.

What periods were those?---Towards the end, 2016, ‘17,

somewhere along those lines.

And Mr Tovey, the Company Secretary of Horizon Power, gave

evidence that you were a Type A contractor, so that’s one

filling an approved FTE position that would otherwise be

performed by an employee. Would you agree with that?---I

was back-filling that role, yes.

Did you ever discuss with Mr Thomas, or anyone else at

Horizon Power, being employed as an employee rather than a

contractor?---It would come up every 12 months.

And what do you mean by, “It would come up every

12 months”? Who did you discuss it with?---So it would

come via Shane Vondeling, the Commercial Manager, or Paul,

um, but nothing ever eventuated.

Why is that?---You’d have to ask Horizon Power.

So we saw earlier from your contract that you warranted you

had no conflict of interest with Horizon Power, and that if

a conflict did arise you would notify, in writing. The

Code of Conduct expressly applies to contractors. Were you

aware of that?---No.

The Commission has heard evidence from Mr Tovey that the

Code of Conduct and conflict of interest policy requires a

staff member with a conflict to raise it with their formal

leader, who then reports it to the Company Secretary, and

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 8


that’s recorded in the conflict of interest register. Were

you aware of that process?---No.

And Horizon Power has confirmed that there are no

declarations recorded for you on the conflict of interest

register. Would you like to see that confirmation, or do

you accept that?---No, I accept that.

I’d like to ask you some questions about TSIT’s recruitment

business. So since 2010 TSIT has engaged a payroll service

known as CXC Consulting?---Yes.

And why did it choose to go with CXC Consulting out of all

the payroll businesses around?---For Horizon Power?

Yes?---Um, Paul organised directly with CXC, so I couldn’t

answer for him.

So you played no role in that?---Can you, ah, repeat the

question? So I have a right?

Sorry. Did you play a role in engaging CXC Consulting as a

payroll service for TSIT?---Yes.

And what was that? What role did you play?---So we were

looking for a payroll company. They were the biggest.

And TSIT received agency margin fees from CXC

Consulting?---Yes.

From 2010 to 2014?---I thought it was the 9th of ‘13.

So to the best of your knowledge it stopped receiving

agency margin fees in September 2013?---To the best of my

knowledge.

Well, we’ll come back to that. And to the best of your

knowledge, CXC paid TSIT by depositing amounts into the

TSIT bank account. Is that correct?---Yes.

And that’s the only way CXC made payments to TSIT?---Yes.

I’ll just show you an example - it’s 2782.

2782^

NEVILL, MS: So we can see there that highlighted number

relates to a payment from CXC Consulting?---Mm.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 9


And there’s an RCTI number there?---Yes.

Which stands for recipient created tax invoice. And at the

top there you can see that that’s the business account for

Thomaspa Proprietary Limited?---Yes.

And it’s linked with the Thomas Family Trust and the Raspa

Family Trust. So this is just an example of a deposit from

CXC into TSIT bank account in 2011?---(No audible answer).

Sorry, rather than nodding, if you can just - - -?---Yes.

Thank you, for the transcript. Exhibit 0420.

0420^

NEVILL, MS: I referred earlier to an RCTI. I’ll show you

an example of that, Mr Raspa. This is an email, at the

bottom of the page, from a Dale Halder(?) from CXC dated

19 August 2013.

Sorry, scroll down a bit, Madam Associate. Thank you.

THE WITNESS: Exhibit number - - -

NEVILL, MS: 0420?---Thank you.

And that’s an email to yourself at your TSIT

account?---Yes.

Attaching, at page 3, a recipient created tax invoice. So

this shows payments to TSIT from CXC for contractors Ian

Saunders and Paul Crockford?---Yes.

And these were made in August 2013?---Yes.

And you were already engaged at Horizon Power at that

stage, weren’t you?---Yes.

That was a conflict of interest, wasn’t it,

Mr Raspa?---Yes.

So we can see that you didn’t declare this to Horizon

Power, did you?---Er, I did declare it to - ah, when I was

on-boarded to David Thavasuthan, um, who told me to speak

to Paul Thomas, and - I can’t recall the conversation, but

I know Paul had already declared his interest to James

Deacon.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 10


So when you say you declared it to David Thavasuthan, did

you say it verbally?---Yes.

Did you confirm it in writing?---No.

And we saw earlier your contract required you to notify

Horizon Power in writing?---Yes.

And did you say you subsequently - he subsequently had

conversation with Mr Thomas?---He told me to speak to Paul.

Sorry, yes, he told you to speak to Mr Thomas. And what

was your conversation with Mr Thomas?---I can’t recall.

THE COMMISSIONER: But Mr Thomas was one of the other

owners?---Yes. He was - - -

So hardly a neutral source of advice?---He was my line

manager.

And one of the other owners?---True. He had declared his

interest to James Deacon, his manager.

Well, that’s what he told you he’d done?---Yes.

You have no way of knowing what he said, have you?---I

don’t.

All right.

NEVILL, MS: Did you have any discussions with

Mr Deacon?---Ah, I had after all this happened to James,

and I asked him.

When you say after all this happened, are you referring to

the Commission investigation?---After - correct.

But not when you started at Horizon Power?---No.

And did you take any steps to check the conflicts of

interest register?---I did not.

So other than a conversation with Mr Thavasuthan and

Mr Thomas, you didn’t take any other steps to follow up

with that?---No.

Mr Tovey gave evidence that if you had declared your

interest in TSIT and the payment by Horizon Power of

ongoing margin fees, his view, as Company Secretary, was

that this was not a conflict that Horizon Power could have

managed. So you didn’t declare your ownership of TSIT

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 11


because you wanted Horizon Power to continue paying TSIT,

didn’t you?---I thought it was covered off.

Just nine months before you began at Horizon Power, you

took steps to hide your interest in TSIT from your previous

employer, Rio Tinto. Is that correct?---I can’t recall

that.

Let me show you an email, Mr Raspa. It’s exhibit 2294.

2294^

NEVILL, MS: This is an email from you to Mr Peter Noone

at his TSIT address on 5 November 2012, and you state

there:

To protect me, as we are selling to Rio now, I need

to change the company name from Thomaspa to something

more generic, in case someone from Rio or another

company searches and figures it out. I’m also

changing the way that, if the company search, they

will see another company and not me.

And at the bottom of that email you said:

I’ve told Adamo to do it as I want protection.

Adamo is Adamo Accounting, is it not?---Yes.

And that’s the accounting firm you use?---Yes.

So what was the purpose of this email, Mr Raspa?---I was

concerned about privacy. Um, I don’t think we did it.

But you were engaged at Rio Tinto in November 2012?---Yes.

And when you say, “We are selling”, you’re referring to

TSIT?---Correct.

So you’re proposing to change the company name so that no

one will realise that you’re associated with the

company?---That was nave, cos anybody can do a company

search.

You may see it as nave now, but at the time that was your

intention, wasn’t it?---Yes.

I’ll show you another email. It’s exhibit 2297.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 12


2297^

NEVILL, MS: And if we start at the bottom of the second

page, there’s an email from Mr Thomas at his TSIT address

to a Michael Williams at Rio Tinto, and he’s confirming

that:

We are able to provide Ceragon equipment.

Can you see that, Mr Raspa? And that was subsequently

forwarded by Mr Williams to a group email which says:

Hi all. Please see email below. Paul Thomas from

Trusted Solutions IT has confirmed that his company

can supply Ceragon equipment.

Do you need a moment to read that email?---No.

And if we go to page 1, that’s been forwarded to you by

David Hodgson and he has said on 8 November 2012:

Dodgy!!!

Mr Raspa, as soon as you received this email, you forwarded

it to your Gmail account and then you subsequently used

your Gmail account to forward it to [email protected] - at

the top of that page, and to Haydn Hesford at Adamo. Now,

Mr Hesford is an accountant at Adamo Accounting? Is that

correct?---Yes.

And he helped you with company structures?---Yes.

And you’ve said to him:

Hi Haydn -

- on 8 November 2012 -

- I really need to be out of this company ASAP.

So the inference that can be drawn, Mr Raspa, is that you

were taking steps to hide your involvement in TSIT so that

TSIT could sell to Rio Tinto, who was your employer at the

time?---I wanted to be out of the company so there was no

conflict, so be out of the company completely.

But when you say “Out of the company”, you meant just on

the ASIC records, did you not?---No.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 13


But subsequent to 11 2012, you stayed involved in TSIT?---I

did, because I don’t believe we did any work.

So you don’t believe that TSIT told services to Rio

Tinto?---I can’t recall.

Do you recall that the name of Thomaspa was changed on

9 November 2012?---Yes.

And that was in accordance with your instructions?---Yes.

Because you wanted to get out of the company?---2012? I

thought it was later than that that we changed the name of

the company, but I accept that.

Would you like me to show you an email?---I accept it.

I’d like to show you another contractor, Mr Meddi

Esmail(?), exhibit 2157.

2157^

NEVILL, MS: Now, you’re aware that Mr Esmail was engaged

at Horizon Power from July 2013 to June 2014?---Yes.

And if we go to the bottom of that email, there’s an email

to Paul Thomas from [email protected].


And that was on 4 February 2014.

Dear Paul Thomas. A timesheet has been submitted by

Meddi Esmail for the period 20 January 2014 to

26 January 2014.

And Mr Thomas has then forwarded that email to Mr Esmail:

Can you please make sure your timesheets are going to

the PM for approval?

And he has copied you into that email?---Yes.


So by “PM” did you understand him to mean Program

Manager?---Project Manager.

Project Manager, and that was your role at the time?---At

the time.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 14


And then at the top there, on 4 February 2014, you’ve

responded to Mr Thomas and copied Mr Esmail, and you’ve

asked him to assign it to you permanently. So you

requested Mr Thomas to assign the timesheet authorisation

to you permanently?---Yes.

And you signed off on his timesheets because you were his

manager?---Yes.

I’ll show you an invoice in relation to Mr Esmail. It’s

0803.

0803^

NEVILL, MS: Can you see there that the invoice is dated

3 December 2013?---Yes.

And that’s from CXC to Horizon Power for payment of

contractor Meddi Esmail?---Yes.

And if we go to the second page of that, you signed off on

his timesheet?---Yes.

So TSIT received a payment from CXC for the period

Mr Esmail was engaged at Horizon Power, didn’t it?---I

don’t think it’s the whole time.

Well, the Commission has records that indicate that TSIT

was being paid through CXC until June 2014. I can show you

a worksheet. Exhibit 2797.

2797^

NEVILL, MS: And the second tab, CXC, Meddi Esmail. This

is a worksheet of payments from CXC Global to TSIT, and if

we go down to the very last entry on that page, that entry

states that TSIT was paid by CXC on 25 June 2014. We can

click on the RCTI from CXC. Now, this it to TS Recruitment

Proprietary Limited?---Mm hmm.

And the date is 25 June 2014?---Yes.

So that’s setting out there a payment by CXC to TSIT on

that date?---Yes.

Do you accept that, Mr Raspa?---I accept that.

So you accept, Mr Raspa, that Mr Esmail was engaged in May

2013 to June 2014 at Horizon Power?---I accept your

numbers.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 15


And you signed off on 24 of Mr Esmail’s timesheets. Do you

recall signing off on Mr Esmail’s timesheets?---I would

have.

Because you were his Project Manager?---Yes.

And as a consequence of you signing off on those

timesheets, TSIT was paid by Horizon Power through

CXC?---Yes.

And you didn’t make any declaration to Horizon Power about

Mr Esmail?---No.

And again, the reason you didn’t declare this is was

because you wanted TSIT to continue receiving payments from

Horizon Power?---I don’t know who put Meddi in originally,

but it certainly wasn’t my intent.

But the reality is that TSIT were receiving payments from

Horizon Power through CXC while you were employed

there?---Yes.

The Commission has evidence that suggests TSIT was paid a

total of $122,787.50 for Mr Esmail’s engagement at Horizon

Power. In October 2013, Mr Thomas stopped being a Director

of TSIT. Do you recall why that occurred?---Yes.

Why is that?---We were going for a bid and the - we, the

CIO that we knew had been advised that there was a conflict

with Paul.

I’ll show you an email to refresh your memory. It’s

exhibit 2316.

2316^

NEVILL, MS: If we scroll down a little to the bottom of

that page, there’s an email from an Andy Crowhurst on

16 October 2013 to you at TSIT and Paul Thomas?---Yes.

And in that email he sets out some concerns. Is this what

you’re referring to?---Yes.

And the first of those bullet points is that TSIT is a

privately-owned company run by employees of a government

agency. And the second-last bullet point states that TSIT

are using resources that are being paid for Horizon Power

to perform activities for TSIT, and the names included

there are Paul Thomas, Greg Davidson, Anthony Raspa, Paul

Jones and Paul Crockford.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 16


So what did you do after you received this email?---So Paul

went and got some legal advice. The people named there are

all contractors, so they weren’t employees, and Paul got

legal advice. I can’t recall what that was, and I think he

had an epiphany that maybe he didn’t want to be part of

TSIT.

But as a result of this, you changed the directorship of

the company?---With Paul not wanting to be part of Trusted

Solutions, we parked his shares in the short term to see

what he wanted to do.

Right. I’ll show you an email that relates to that. It’s

exhibit 2319.

2319^

NEVILL, MS: That’s an email from you to

[email protected]. Who receives emails at that email

address?---The three Directors.

And that was dated 17 October 2013 and you’ve addressed it

to Mr Noone?---Yes.

Based on events, we are doing a direct swap of Paul’s

company position and my hidden position. I’ll call

soon. It’s in effect by close of business today.

By “Events”, you were referring to the email from

Mr Crowhurst?---Yes.

And what did you mean by your “Hidden position”?---I can’t

recall the context.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, there’s the context. Have a

go?---I think I was moving Paul’s shares to myself, but

instead we parked them.

Sorry, I don’t understand that?---So I can’t recall the

being in a “Hidden position”.

NEVILL, MS: I showed you earlier, Mr Raspa, emails

relating to your wanting to get out of the company because

TSIT were going to sell to Rio Tinto, but in fact you

weren’t wanting to get out, you were wanting to hide your

position, so you removed yourself as Director at that

stage, and it remained hidden until 2013. Is that

correct?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 17


Following on from that, exhibit 2321.

2321^

NEVILL, MS: Mr Raspa, you referred to parking shares.

What do you mean by “Parking shares”?---So if Paul didn’t

want to carry on with the company, they could be held until

he made a decision.

By whom?---Himself.

Exhibit 2321.

2321^

NEVILL, MS: So on 17 October 2013, this is just one day

after you’ve received that email from Mr Crowhurst, Diana

Silver(?) has emailed you at TSIT.com.au?---Yes.

Hi Anthony. I have completed all the changes. See

attached docs, and documents have already been lodged

with ASIC.

So the changes that Ms Silver had made were that you were

the Director, Secretary and Public Officer?---Yes.

And the shareholdings, Paul Leslie Hesford, Hesford

Benevolent Trust, one share, Mr Noone, one share, Mr Raspa,

one share. And she said there:

I didn’t transfer Paul Thomas’ share direct to you, I

did the changes via the Hesford Benevolent Trust.

What is the Hesford Benevolent Trust?---That’s the

mechanism to park the shares.

What do you mean by that?---I asked the accountant, “Is

there a way to hold the shares?” whilst we decided what

Paul wanted to do.

Was it not so much a parking of the shares as a concealing

of Mr Thomas’ shareholding?---No.

But can you see, Mr Raspa, that the inference there is that

you’re trying to conceal the shareholding via the Hesford

Benevolent Trust?---Not at this time, no.

And Ms Silver has made these changes on your instructions,

hasn’t she?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 18


So that email from Mr Crowhurst was sent on 16 October

2013, and by that stage you had expressly been made aware

of a potential conflict of interest between TSIT and

Horizon Power. Would you agree with that?---We did not

think that - I did not think that was a conflict for myself

and the people, being contractors.

But you were put on notice that there was a potential

conflict of interest - - -?---Being - - -

- - - but your assessment was that it wasn’t a conflict of

interest?---They were consultant contractors. They were

free to do as they will.

But when - you were made Director on 17 October 2013?---I -

is that a question?

Were you made Director on 17 October of 2013?---I can’t - I

- I can’t recall. I’m sure the - - -

I can show you an ASIC extract?---I believe you.

2786.

2786^

NEVILL, MS: At the bottom of the second page, you’re

listed as a Director, and the appointment date was - sorry,

at the bottom of page 2 - you’re listed as Director, and

the appointment date is 17 October 2013?---Yes.

And on page 3, Mr Paul Thomas has ceased being Director on

17 October 2013?---Yes.

So we can see there that Mr Thomas stopped being Director

and you became Director again on that date?---Yes.

And your contract with Horizon Power required you to notify

in writing if a conflict arose in the course of your

contract, didn’t it?---I was unaware.

We read out that provision in the contract just earlier.

Would you like me to take you back to it?---No.

THE COMMISSIONER: You were unaware because you didn’t do

what you were supposed to do?---Not at all, sir. I was

absolutely unaware that - I didn’t read - this is back in

2013 - - -

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 19


No, you didn’t read it?---I didn’t read it.

Not much of an excuse, is it?---Truth.

NEVILL, MS: You relied on Mr Thomas telling you that he

had to claim his conflict?---Yes.

But - and you also referred to a conversation with David

Thavasuthan. Well, Mr Thavasuthan has provided a statement

in which he said he was not aware of TSIT having any

involvement with Horizon Power. He was not aware of any

payments made by CXC to TSIT, and that he himself has never

had any involvement with TSIT. Is there anything you would

like to tell the Commission about that?---No.

In 2015, TSIT applied to be included in a common user

agreement - sorry, a common use arrangement, with the

Department of Finance?---Yes.

And you prepared TSIT’s application?---Ah, no.

Who prepared it?---So we novated it from a company called

TSA.

I’ll just show you a document. It’s 0213.

0213^

NEVILL, MS: If we just scroll down, thank you, Madam

Associate.

So this is a document that says it’s prepared by

you?---Correct.

And the date is 18 June 2015?---Yes.

And you’re listed as the contact person?---Yes.

And do you recall preparing this document?---I went over

it, yes.

If we turn to page 31?---This is the refresh document.

Right, but you cast your eye over this document?---Yes.

Who was responsible for drafting it?---Claire.

Did she have input from you and Mr Thomas?---We would have

reviewed it, yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 20


And did you meet with her to discuss the contents of

it?---We would have emailed it around.

So you emailed different versions to each other?---That is

my assumption.

And did you meet together to discuss it?---I can’t recall.

I can show you an email to refresh your memory. 2193.

2193^

NEVILL, MS: If you go to page 3 of that and we scroll

down to the bottom. On 16 June 2015, Claire Morris sent an

email to Mr Thomas and yourself, copy to Mr Noone, and she

said:

Here is the latest version with notes, changes, from

today’s discussion.

Do you recall a discussion on that date about the CUA?---I

don’t, but - not any specific discussion, but I can see the

email.

Is it possible you would have discussed it then on that

date, or just before, and she set out the tasks for each of

you, what we still need to do, and she’s put your names

there, so Mr Thomas was to do the executive summary and the

tables of examples, and you were to deal with question 8

and examples of similarities, and the example relating to

the DHW?---Yes.

So it was quite a collaborative effort, wasn’t it?---Yes.

I’ll take you back to the CUA application - 0213 at

page 31.

0213^

NEVILL, MS: Now, the example that’s listed there is

“Digital Strategy at Horizon Power”?---Yes.

And on the following page, at the bottom of that page,

Mr Thomas in his position as Manager Technology was listed

as a referee?---Yes.

And his contact email is his Horizon Power email

account?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 21


So Mr Thomas gave evidence that he provided that reference

without the Department of Finance in any way aware of his

involvement with TSIT?---The Department of Finance knew

Paul Thomas was the CUA owner, because he had novated it.

Well, the Commission has heard evidence from a

representative of the Department of Finance who said that

they had - they did not know that Mr Thomas was involved

with TSIT, and they would not have accepted his reference

because it was not independent?---No. I believe his name

was on the novation. He - Peter and Paul did the novation.

But this is a fresh application?---I think this is the

refresh, they refreshed it.

Well, it’s a new application. It’s 49 pages long and

doesn’t name Mr Thomas in any capacity at TSIT. So you

accept that, or would you like me to go through the

document?---I accept that it’s not on this document.

Mr Thomas’ evidence was that he acknowledged it was open to

find that he had used his position as Manager to gain a

benefit for the inclusion of being on the CUA?---Sorry,

could you rephrase the question.

He acknowledged it was open to the Commission to find that

he had used his position as a Manager at Horizon Power to

gain the benefit of being included on the CUA - - -?---He

acknowledged - - -

- - - for TSIT?---He acknowledged?

Yes, he did, in his evidence. And you facilitated that by

helping to draft the application, didn’t you?---I drafted

it, yes.


And you’re aware, Mr Raspa, that Carolynne Thomas,

Mr Thomas’ wife, was employed at Horizon Power in May

2017?---Yes.

And so you knew at the time that Mr Thomas had engaged his

wife?---I knew he was going to.

I’ll show you exhibit 2254.

2254^

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 22


NEVILL, MS: This is an email from Elipse at Horizon Power

to yourself on 22 May 2017, and it attaches a purchase

requisition. And if we scroll to the bottom of that page,

we can see that the cost relates to labour hire for

Carolynne Thomas. So why did you receive this purchase

requisition?---So - I received most of the purchase

requisitions in Horizon Power Technology.

Mr Thomas’ evidence was that Mrs Thomas’ work had nothing

to do with your remit, your work. Would you agree with

that?---Yes.

You didn’t manage her while she was at Horizon

Power?---No. She was managed by Alladean, I think, via

Jeff Campbell.

But you had no oversight over her or her work?---No.

Why were you signing off on purchase orders for

her?---Again, I did most of the purchase orders in the

department.

I’ll play you a call, Mr Raspa. It’s 0913.

0913^

START TELEPHONE INTERCEPT:

RASPA: I’m just about to approve Carolynne’s uh

labour hire [laughs] that Shane

THOMAS: Oh right.

RASPA: that Shane wouldn’t approve so

THOMAS: Right.

RASPA: and you can’t approve. So, it’s come to me

and I’m like oh yeah. I’ll do it for Thommo, no

worries at all ah

THOMAS: No problem.

RASPA: when I hit approve, what do I write in there

as uhm the reason?

THOMAS: She’s doing content development for

Alladean.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 23


RASPA: Okay done. That’s all I needed to know, mate.

END TELEPHONE INTERCEPT.

NEVILL, MS: Mr Raspa, that’s a call between you and

Mr Thomas?---Yes.

On 22 May 2017?---Yes.

And that’s the same day you received that purchase

requisition that we just showed you?---Yes.

You said:

I’m just about to approve Carolynne’s labour hire -

- and you laughed. Why did you think that was funny?---I

thought it was bold of Paul, bringing on Carolynne.

Why is that?

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I just didn’t quite catch what

you said?---I thought it was - everybody knew who Carolynne

was. It was not like he could hide who she was.

NEVILL, MS: So you thought it was bold?---Correct.

Did you think it was a conflict of interest?---I thought

Thommo would have covered it off.

Did you discuss that with him?---No.

And you’ve referred to Shane not approving it. Are you

referring to Shane Vondeling?---Yes.

Why wouldn’t Mr Vondeling approve of that labour hire?---So

I went to both Shane, and I think even Jeff, and asked them

why they - why it had come to me and they said - well, I’ve

got no good reason that they should be the ones to approve

it.

Did you make any other inquiries about why that purchase

requisition came to you?---No.

And then - - -?---I did speak with Shane Vondeling and I

did speak with Jeff Campbell.

And you’ve said that “Shane wouldn’t approve” and that “You

can’t approve” - you’re referring to Mr Thomas

there?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 24


And why couldn’t Mr Thomas approve it?---That would’ve been

a - he can’t approve his own wife.

But you were happy to do it for him?---It came to me to

approve.

You said:

I’ll do it for Thommo.

?---Yes.

So were happy to do it for him?---As long as he gave me the

reason.

And you accepted his reason?---it - she was working on that

content development for Alladean, yes.

I’ll show you another exhibit that relates to Mrs Thomas’

engagement. It’s 1135.

1135^

NEVILL, MS: This is a tax invoice from CXC to Horizon

Power. It’s dated 30 June 2017 and it relates to

Mrs Thomas. Can you see, Mr Raspa, that you’ve signed off

on that?---Yes.

I’ll show you another invoice, exhibit 1136, dated 30 June

2017, from CXC to Horizon Power for, again, Mrs Thomas.

1136^

NEVILL, MS: And you’ve signed off on that, haven’t

you?---Yes.

But you had no oversight of her work?---I would sign off on

most of the contractors as part of my role.

THE COMMISSIONER: That didn’t answer the

question?---Could you repeat the question to me or

rephrase?

NEVILL, MS: You had no oversight of Mrs Thomas’

work?---No, she was working for Alladean. The project

management office would send me all the contractors’

timesheets. Ah, they had to vet the hours that she’d done,

and then I checked with Alladean if she had done the hours,

and then we signed it.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 25


Mr Raspa, you just said earlier you thought it was bold

that Mr Thomas had engaged his wife, didn’t you?---Yes.

But here you are signing off on invoices for payment for

his wife?---Yes.

And did you raise your concerns with anyone else at Horizon

Power?---I - I spoke to Shane and to Jeff.

When did you speak to Mr Vondeling?---When the purchase

order came through.

THE COMMISSIONER: And he wouldn’t sign it, would he?---He

said no.

NEVILL, MS: Thank you. That can be taken down.

So we referred earlier, Mr Raspa, to an accounting firm

known as Adamo Accounting?---Yes.

And you know the owner, Mr Paul Hesford?---Yes.

Mr Hesford helped you set up TSIT in 2010?---Yes.

And he’s also helped you establish Raspa

Contracting?---Yes.

In 2017 you asked Mr Hesford to establish another company,

didn’t you?---Which one?

Well, did you ask Mr Hesford to establish another company

in 2017?---I can’t guess.

I’ll play you a call, Mr Raspa, it’s 0867.

0867^


THOMAS: The other thing I spoke to Pete.

RASPA: Who mate?

THOMAS: Pete.

RASPA: Oh yeah.

THOMAS: Ah about the stuff we was talking about.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 26


RASPA: Which, which stuff?

THOMAS: Hang on a sec. Uhm, the

RASPA: Oh, you get the company and the

THOMAS: with Paul, Paul Hesford.

RASPA: Horizon Power, yes.

THOMAS: Right and and I included the conversation

around solar and and potentially going after ah

business with that.

RASPA: Yep.

THOMAS: Uhm and I said to him I need to understand

where, where you’re at cause I know you get very

nervous and you know blah blah blah about these

things.

RASPA: Yep.

THOMAS: I said so you, he needs, I said, I left it

with him. I said you need to get back to us

reasonably soon to tell us whether your, you wanna be

a part of this new entity or not.

RASPA: Okay.

THOMAS: Uhm so I don’t

RASPA: How, well how’d he sound?

THOMAS: Oh

RASPA: What’d he sound like?

THOMAS: he, he, he went through all of the normal

well Thommo you’ve exposed yourself and blah blah

blah. I said look and I know that. I said but in, in

a essence I’ll, there won’t be a nominated director

and the shareholder’s will be anonymous through Paul

Hesford’s business.

RASPA: Yeah.

THOMAS: I said uhm, I said but there will be a point

if, if we win anything that uhm I would then say, I’d

seek forgiveness rather than approval.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 27


RASPA: Yep, done.

THOMAS: Right, I would go to the business and say oh

fuck, there’s a problem here, I’m a shareholder and

then look at it and just say what the fuck. I’ll say

yeah but that’s just you know, that, that’s back end

of that is my family trust as a shareholder. I said

I’ve got no, I’ll, you know I’ll make all the bull,

normal bullshit up but this is what I did when I,

when TSIT was caught. Uhm

RASPA: (Indistinct) yeah, yeah no stress

(indistinct).

THOMAS: so anyway, I’ll, I’ll leave him a couple of

days and get back to him and see what he wants to do.

RASPA: Yeah, fair enough and then let’s

END EXTRACT OF TELEPHONE INTERCEPT.

NEVILL, MS: Mr Raspa, that was a call between yourself

and Mr Thomas?---Yes.

On 25 January 2017?---Thank you.

On page 1 of that transcript, Mr Thomas says:

I spoke to Pete.

Did you understand him to be referring to Peter

Noone?---Yes.

And you said:

Oh, the company and the Horizon Power, yes.

?---Yes.

And Mr Thomas has referred to Paul Hesford - - -?---Yes.

- - - your accountant. And at page 2 Mr Thomas says:

I included the conversation around solar and

potentially going after business with that.

Did you understand him to mean business with Horizon

Power?---Paul was looking at solar hybrid containers with

his neighbour, Peter Marzel(?) and he wanted to form a

company.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 28


But were they going to go after Horizon Power

business?---To - I can’t recall the purpose of the solar

container business through his neighbour. It was for

Myanmar.

I’ll just take you back to page 1, Mr Raspa. So can you

see there at the bottom, you’ve mentioned Horizon

Power?---Yes.

What did you understand about Horizon Power and the new

business venture?---Paul had a lot of ideas, but I didn’t

believe that we would ever get the Horizon Power business.

But what did you understand at the time when you referred

to Horizon Power?---Just Horizon Power.

Did you understand that this new business venture would go

after business with Horizon Power?---That’s what he said.

I did not believe it.

And at page 2, at the bottom of that page, Mr Thomas refers

to:

The shareholders will be anonymous through Paul

Hesford’s business.

And you understood that to mean Adamo Accounting?---Yes.

And you were discussing putting Mr Paul Hesford’s business

as a shareholder?---We had a lot of ideas and we discussed

that, yes.

Now, Mr Thomas says:

If we win anything, then I would seek forgiveness,

rather than approval.


And you’ve said:

Yeah, done.

What did you understand him to mean by, “If we win

anything”?---Um, exactly what it says there.

If we win business with Horizon Power?---Yes.

And what did you understand him to mean when he was

referring to seeking forgiveness rather than approval?---He

would declare it.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 29


Sorry?---He would declare it.

After he’d won business with Horizon Power?---That’s how it

reads.

And you’ve agreed?---Yes, but I knew there was no way.

No way, what, sorry, Mr Raspa?---That we would win any

business at Horizon Power.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you didn’t know that. You may

have thought it. I mean, this - - -?---This - for this

business, my - my interest was not with Horizon Power.

Myanmar was what was discussed with me.

NEVILL, MS: And Mr Thomas goes on to say that - on the

next page:

I’ll make all the normal bullshit up, but this is

what I did when TSIT was caught.

Can you see that there, at the top of the page?---Yes.

And you’ve said:

Yeah. Yeah, no stress.

What did you understand him to mean by that?---Paul used to

have a lot of ideas and talk a lot. This, I think, was a -

a lot of chest beating after a pub conversation.

I’m not sure that’s answered my question. What did you

understand when Mr Thomas said:

I’ll make all the normal bullshit up. This is what I

did when TSIT was caught.

?---I take that to mean that - exactly how it’s written.

So what was TSIT caught doing?---I don’t know. I know

you’re trying to reference this back, but - I don’t know.

This was just a Paul conversation.

But TSIT is essentially three people?---Yes.

And you are one of those people?---Yes.

So you’d be aware if TSIT had been caught doing

anything?---We never were.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 30


THE COMMISSIONER: Was it referring back to the Harry

Perkins Institute matter?---It could be.

NEVILL, MS: And what did you - what “Bullshit” was made

up at that time?---He had his response that you had from

the Harry Perkins Institute, unless he was referring to

that.

So you’re saying that the response you drafted together

with him was bullshit?---No. I’m saying that you’re

creating an inference there.

I’ll play you another call, Mr Raspa. 0868.

0868^


RASPA: Thommo ah said he ah put a proposition your

way to make you think about it the other day?

NOONE: What was that?

RASPA: Dodgy Thommo.

NOONE: No what’s dodgy Thommo come up with?

RASPA: Oh he hasn’t? Do all the apps for Horizon.

NOONE: No. Haven’t heard this.

RASPA: Oh I thought he said he spoke to you about

it.

NOONE: No.

RASPA: Alright. (inaudible)

NOONE: What’s he want to do?

RASPA: Maybe set up another company that does all

the apps for Horizon.

NOONE: Yeah do they know that?

RASPA: Sorry?

NOONE: As long as they know that that’s fine.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 31


RASPA: No. Bit dodgy. Total dodge.

NOONE: Well (clears throat) it depends what the

structure is I mean if Thommo’s not a shareholder or

got nothin’ to do with it

RASPA: Yeah.

NOONE: then he’s not a shareholder not a director

he’s got nothing to do with it whatsoever and it

can’t have any money go to it from Trusted

RASPA: Yeah.

NOONE: then what does he get?

RASPA: Exactly. Exactly.

NOONE: But is that what they’re lookin’ to do?

RASPA: Ah he’s lookin’ to push some stuff yeah.

Absolutely.

NOONE: But the thing is I mean we’d never win a

tender. If they’ve got a ten, if they’ve got

procurement in the room which they’d have to, he’d

never get it through because you’d be a company that

started well, life two weeks ago. Unless you do

Vizstone.

RASPA: Mm. Mm oh we got, we got, we got a ah we got

an idea there. We’re workin’ through that one.

NOONE: Alright. Alright.

RASPA: Alright mate?

NOONE: Speak to you later on.

RASPA: Alright. Ciao ciao.


NEVILL, MS: Mr Raspa, that’s a call with you and

Mr Noone?---Yes.

On 7 February 2017?---Yes.

And on page 1 - thank you, Madam Associate - why did you

call Mr Thomas “Dodgy Thommo”?---Because Thommo had a lot

of ideas, and the problem was we never went through with

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 32


any of them, because in the end we knew they were wrong.

But Thommo had a lot of ideas and - - -

What - sorry. Go ahead?---No, that’s it.

What did you know was wrong about the ideas?---So at the

end of the day we knew most of the ideas were wrong, and

that’s why we did not go ahead with any of them.

THE COMMISSIONER: Why were they wrong?---Um, because we

had to create structures or - we knew they were wrong

because we considered them inappropriate.

In what way?---Based on his position at Horizon.

NEVILL, MS: But you were also engaged at Horizon at the

same time as Mr Thomas?---Yes.

So he’s referred - sorry, you referred to doing the apps

for Horizon halfway down that page?---He said he wanted to

do apps.

And at the bottom you said:

Set up another company that does all the apps.

?---Yes.

But you were going to be part of that company?---It was an

idea.

And on the following page, Mr Noone says:

As long as they know that, that’s fine.

Did you understand him to mean as long as Horizon Power

know, then that’s fine?---Yes.

And you said:

No, a bit dodgy.

?---Correct.

Total dodge.

So was your intention that Horizon Power would not know

about your involvement in that company?---When we were

talking freely like this, that was an inference. Again,

when it came down to doing it, we knew it was wrong.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 33


But in this conversation?---In this conversation, yes.

And you said, halfway down that page:

He’s looking to push some stuff. Yeah, absolutely.

You’re referring to selling apps to Horizon Power?---I

think work, yes.

You’re discussing in this call positioning a company to get

work from Horizon Power in the form of developing apps. Is

that correct?---Yes.

I’ll play you another call, Mr Raspa. 0873.

0873^


H HESFORD: Good Afternoon Adamo Accounting Haydn

speaking.

RASPA: Haydn Anthony Raspa. How the hell are ya?

H HESFORD: G’day Mister Raspa. How are ya?

RASPA: Good, good, good.

H HESFORD: Yeah? That’s good.

RASPA: Hey mate ah I’m lookin’ for ah Dad. Is your

old Dad is he at home today?

H HESFORD: Yeah. He’s no,

RASPA: He’s here?

H HESFORD: no, no you’ve got him actually.

RASPA: Alright.

H HESFORD: Yeah

RASPA: Cheers.

H HESFORD: I’ll put you through.

P HESFORD: (background) I don’t want to talk to him.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 34


H HESFORD: Oh actually no he’s not here he just

said.

RASPA: (laughs)

H HESFORD: (laughs)

RASPA: That’s what I’d do mate I’d go oh fuck.

H HESFORD: (laughs) I’ll put you through man.

RASPA: Jesus.

H HESFORD: (laughs) I’ll put you through. Cheers.

P HESFORD: G’day.

RASPA: G’day mate. We had that conversation ah not

too long ago about ah you being the director of a

company and ah

P HESFORD: Yep.

RASPA: all I, I’m just ah it’s still in the throes

so

P HESFORD: Yep.

RASPA: I need you to identify a ACN. An old one ah

with the most amount of history and uhm that you

could be director of. We don’t want a new ACN

P HESFORD: Yeah run that one, run that one past me

again?

RASPA: So you know how you can buy old companies?

You can buy companies yeah?

P HESFORD: Yeah well it’s pretty hard to get.

RASPA: Really?

P HESFORD: Yeah.

RASPA: Like the old days like they used to do?

P HESFORD: No, no oh I mean we can probably find one

around the place mate but it’s not that bloody easy.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 35


RASPA: I thought ah in your line of work it might be

easy or won’t be too much of a struggle maybe a

little bit of a struggle but not

P HESFORD: Hang on

RASPA: too much.

P HESFORD: give me one, one, one second. One second

no because I mean there’s always but there’s use for

‘em nowadays back datin’ stuff but give me, give me

RASPA: Yeah.

P HESFORD: one second mate.

RASPA: Okay.

P HESFORD: (aside) Hey have you got uhm Guy. Azza’s

mate. Have you got rid of that yet?

H HESFORD: No we still got it.

P HESFORD: (returns) Got you one.

RASPA: Got me one? How old is it?

P HESFORD: Got you one. Oh it’ll be a couple of

years old I think.

RASPA: Couple of years? I am

P HESFORD: Yeah.

RASPA: so plan A is I’m working on a guy who ah may

want to sell his company who’s actually

P HESFORD: Yep.

RASPA: registered

P HESFORD: Yep.

RASPA: with Horizon Power.

P HESFORD: Yep.

RASPA: So that would be a path of least resistance

but ah if not uhm.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 36


P HESFORD: Okay yeah now you know, you know if you

back date changes in directors and stuff it, it costs

a fortune.

RASPA: Oh does it? What’d ah

P HESFORD: Yeah.

RASPA: but that’s okay as, as soon as we

P HESFORD: Fines you know from

RASPA: bought the company we’d

P HESFORD: ASIC fines.

RASPA: yeah, yeah no, no if we, we change the

company

P HESFORD: Yeah.

RASPA: we do it above book there and then and you

could

P HESFORD: Yeah.

RASPA: uhm suss it out.

P HESFORD: Yep. Yep.

RASPA: Alright mate. Done.

P HESFORD: Yeah. Yep.

RASPA: Let me just wanted to

P HESFORD: Yep ‘cause I, I think it’s about six

hundred bucks from memory mate

RASPA: Oh. Oh six hundred?

P HESFORD: for a late payment.

RASPA: Yeah we’ll pay that for ya

P HESFORD: Yeah.

RASPA: plus (inaudible).

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 37


P HESFORD: Yep. Okay.

RASPA: Uhm okay that was just ah an option keep,

keep on ah

P HESFORD: Yep.

RASPA: track with, with that

P HESFORD: Okay well we’ll keep

RASPA: and if you need to sell it you need to sell

it

P HESFORD: Yep.

RASPA: but just give me

P HESFORD: Okay.

RASPA: the heads up first.

P HESFORD: Okay no worries.

RASPA: Okay.

P HESFORD: Done.

RASPA: Cheers and you think it’s

P HESFORD: Okay mate.

RASPA: only two years old though?

P HESFORD: Ah. Hang on a sec. (aside) Hey do you

know what the name of it is? (returns) Hang on a

second we’ll, we’ll have a look.

RASPA: Yep.

P HESFORD: Ah and probably have a name. I’ll just

check on the ABN site to see if it’s on there so.

Okay sorry (aside) how (inaudible)

H HESFORD: (background) Initials A A double R

P HESFORD: Yeah.

H HESFORD: A double L Y.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 38


END EXTRACT TELEPHONE INTERCEPT.

NEVILL, MS: So on 15 February 2017, you discussed with

Paul Hesford - that’s a conversation between yourself and

Paul Hesford- and at page 2, you referred to your

conversation not too long ago about you being a Director of

a company. So you had conversations with Mr Hesford about

him the Director of a company?---Yes.

And you’ve asked him to identify an ACM, so Mr Raspa, what

you’re proposing here is for him to find a company with

some kind of trading history?---Yes.

For you and Mr Thomas to buy?---As an idea.

But was it for you and Mr Thomas to buy?---I don’t know who

was involved at that time, or who was going to be involved.

And at page 3, Mr Hesford says:

Got you one.

So did you understand that he had identified a potential

company?---Yes.

And when you said that you weren’t sure at that stage who

would be involved, other than yourself and Mr Thomas, who

else would be involved?---I didn’t know, because it was

just an idea.

But he has already identified a potential company with a

trading history?---Yes.

THE COMMISSIONER: But it was an idea you were actively

pursuing, wasn’t it?---It was an idea - we had an option.

Yes, and you were actively pursuing an idea to get some

entity that would trade with Horizon Power, weren’t

you?---We looked at many ideas. Of which we then got

advice and that’s when we knew that it was wrong.

Well, you knew it was wrong at this point, didn’t you?---At

this point it was just talk, it was just an idea.

Yes, it was just talk, but you knew it was wrong?---Yes,

and that’s why we didn’t go ahead.

NEVILL, MS: And in this call, when you’ve asked

Mr Hesford to be the Director of the company, it’s so that

you could conceal your involvement in it?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 39


And at page 4, at the top of that page, you’ve said,:

Plan A is - I’m working on a guy who may want to sell

his company, who’s actually registered with Horizon

Power.

?---Yes.

You’re referring there to Peter Ellery?---Yes.

And you said, “I’m working on a guy” - you’d had

discussions with Mr Ellery, hadn’t you?---I didn’t - Paul

had the initial discussions. I think I spoke with Peter

later on, yes.

When did you speak with Peter Ellery?---I can’t recall.

But you had some discussions at some stage with

Mr Ellery?---Yes.

And you knew in this call that his company was registered

with Horizon Power?---Paul had identified that.

And you said:

So that would be a path of least resistance.

?---Yes.

You’re referring to resistance in getting business from

Horizon Power?---Of many, so we looked at many companies

and they still had to stand up by themselves.

But the common theme was that the companies you looked at

were able to get business from Horizon Power?---Yes.

And at page 5, halfway down that page, you are discussing

with Mr Hesford the costs, and you said:

We’ll pay that for you.

So your intention was that you would cover Mr Hesford’s

costs of acquiring that company?---Yes.

And you wanted Mr Hesford to be the Director so that you

and Mr Thomas could conceal your involvement in the

company?---That was the idea.

I’ll play you another call from 29 March 2017. It’s

exhibit 0921.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 40


0921^


HESFORD: Good morning, Adamo Accounting.

RASPA: Good morning, Paul Hesford, how are you?

HESFORD: Ah, good thanks mate. You’re a bit early.

RASPA: Lucky I’m calling you about a totally

separate thing, and I remembered that yeah I

HESFORD: Oh okay.

RASPA: was supposed to give you a call anyways. Can

you

HESFORD: Yeah.

RASPA: uh buy that company? For us? Tell us what we

owe you?

HESFORD: Set up a c- sorry?

RASPA: No that that established company that we ah

discussed.

HESFORD: Oh okay yep.

RAPSA: So we’re we’re looking for a uhm, an IT

sounding or consulty sounding company, really

whatever one, being in uhm, the company that we want

you to buy is whatever’s been in action the longest

mate, so

HESFORD: Yep okay.

RASPA: if you can pick one that’s been in action a

long time

HESFORD: Yep.

RASPA: whatever the longest is

HESFORD: Yeah yep okay.

RASPA: put on your name and we’ll fix you up

whatever the bills are.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 41


HESFORD: Okay now listen I’m not sure uhm ah how

long it’s been, but I’ll find out when Hayd gets in,

or Az gets in and I’ll give you a call.

RASPA: Yeah at least

HESFORD: Now who wants to be the shareholders and

directors and all that sort of crap?

RASPA: Just you mate. Just you.

HESFORD: Oh okay no worries, okay done.

RASPA: ‘Cause we’ve got about a 15 month, two year

plan. So you’re ah

HESFORD: Okay no worries we can do, not what what

how far do you wanna backdate back share holdings or

anything like that, or you don’t wanna do that at the

moment?

RASPA: Nah no no just put your name on there.

HESFORD: You just want us to get hold of an older

company.

RASPA: Yeah, get hold of an old company, at

HESFORD: Okay.

RASPA: least a minimum of a year. Preferably two

plus, or

HESFORD: Okay. Yep I we I think I think we can do

that.

RASPA: Yeah, like the longest, whatever the longest

company is, is what we need.

HESFORD: Okay not a problem in the world

RASPA: And one that doesn’t sound like

HESFORD: Not a problem in the world

RASPA: you know, like you know

HESFORD: Like Raspa, or anything like that.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 42


RASPA: Dicks Dicks Incorporated or some like that

HESFORD: Ah okay.

RASPA: that’s that’s not good. [laughs]

HESFORD: Yeah no I know I do know the company and

it’s off a, it’s a a mate of Azza’s and I do know it

RASPA: Yeah?

HESFORD: but I don’t know what it’s called.

RASPA: Alright, too easy.

HESFORD: Okay, yeah yeah.

RASPA: Too easy. And tax

HESFORD: No worries, mate. And, give me a call a bit

later.

RASPA: A bit later.

HESFORD: Yeah gimme a call a bit later.

END EXTRACT OF TELEPHONE INTERCEPT.

NEVILL, MS: Now, Mr Raspa, this is a call the following

month, 29 March 2017, between you and Mr Hesford?---Yes.

And if we look at page 2 of the transcript, you’ve said to

him:

So we’re looking for an IT sounding or consulty

sounding company.

And you said, “We’re looking”, you mean you and

Mr Thomas?---Yes.

And the reason you wanted an IT sounding or consulting

sounding company was because you wanted to sell IT or

consulting services to Horizon Power?---Yes.

And you’ve said:

Put your name and we’ll fix you up, whatever the

bills are.

So you and Mr Thomas planned to pay Mr Hesford whatever

costs he incurred?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 43


And Mr Hesford clarifies:

Who wants to be the shareholders and directors and

all that sort of crap?

And you said:

Just you, mate. Just you.

So the reason you wanted Mr Hesford to be the Director and

shareholder was so you and Mr Thomas could hide your

involvement in this company?---That was the idea.

And it was to go after business with Horizon Power?---That

was one of them, yes.

THE COMMISSIONER: Is this a convenient time, Ms Nevill?

NEVILL, MS: Yes, Commissioner. Thank you.

THE COMMISSIONER: We will take a 15-minute break for

everyone to stretch their legs. Thank you.

(Short adjournment)

THE COMMISSIONER: Please be seated. When you’re ready,

Ms Nevill.

NEVILL, MS: Thank you, Commissioner.

Mr Raspa, Mr Thomas gave evidence that you were also

interested in a company known as vPoint

Technologies?---Yes.

And why were you interested in vPoint Technologies?---So

Paul advised vPoint was, ah, Peter Ellery’s company. Um,

er, we knew Peter from, um, Fujitsu and, ah, Peter was a

mover and shaker in town.

So you’d worked with Mr Ellery before?---I hadn’t worked

directly with him, but I understand, yes, he was at

Fujitsu, same time.

I’d like to play you a call, Mr Raspa. 0872.

0872^

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 44


START OF TELEPHONE INTERCEPT:

THOMAS: But P, PJ’s created himself a nice little

space right now.

RASPA: (laughs) He’s not dumb.

THOMAS: Uhm but which is part of the reason I’ve

come up with actually is ne, next or this common

series is all about applications and communications.

RASPA: So. Did you speak

THOMAS: And I

RASPA: to your mate about that company?

THOMAS: No I, I’ve, we’ve, we’ve played phone tag

for two days now.

RASPA: I saw him at Woodside walk in the foyer of

Woodside.

THOMAS: Oh did ya? Ellery?

RASPA: I think, I was ge thinkin’ about askin’ him

and I thought no you said got that covered so I

didn’t want to shit in your area.

THOMAS: Yeah. Ellery yeah?

RASPA: Yeah.

THOMAS: Yeah okay. No you wouldn’t be shittin’ in my

area mate.

RASPA: So I thought nope you said you’ll handle it

I’m more than happy to so I thought you had it or

look at an alternate or do you

THOMAS: Well

RASPA: access to what businesses are on file?

THOMAS: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. How about this? How

about this Mister Raspa?

RASPA: Have you, are you coming back to work or are

you be going for a beer

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 45


THOMAS: Yeah.

RASPA: somewhere?

THOMAS: No, no I wish I was going for a beer mate.

RASPA: (laughs)

THOMAS: So what about this?

RASPA: Yeah?

THOMAS: We use Telstra. Yeah?

RASPA: Yeah.

THOMAS: The people we actually get to do the work is

Vizstone.

RASPA: Yes.

THOMAS: Right so the people actually turning up on

site are Vizstone people. So all, all that's

happening in the background is we're getting paid and

we're paying Vizstone.

RASPA: So Telstra was quite stringent about

nominating sub-contractors?

THOMAS: And we did.

RASPA: Did we nominate Vistone.

THOMAS: Yeah I thought, I think so.

RASPA: I don't think we did. I need to review the

document. I don't think we nominated them. And if and

Shane will go okay so who are you sending down to us

Telstra? We're sending down Trusted Solutions. What?

Oh yeah Vizstone people turn up yeah that's, that's

ah.

THOMAS: Well what, what, what's Shane got to do with

it.

RASPA: So when they get contracts when there's a, my

concern is I guarantee it's, it's not even a doubt

it's a hundred percent it will come out who's, who's

the front here.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 46


THOMAS: Yeah?

RASPA: Oh yeah and then that'll just cause all sorts

of doubts and you don't want to do that mate.

THOMAS: Right.

RASPA: Number one job is to protect Thommo. That's a

learning.

THOMAS: Well yeah number one job for me is to make a

bit of coin mate.

RASPA: Yeah but not for the sacrifice of a job.

THOMAS: No, no don't sacrifice anything. I just

didn't, I just figured it would be a Telstra front

Telstra invoicing and, and because Telstra is such a

big account anyway bits and bobs of money wouldn't

even, wouldn't even blink when it comes to an audit.

RASPA: Yeah it'd just be tech fund wouldn't it? Tech

funds.

THOMAS: Well even if we did (inaudible) it doesn't

matter.

RASPA: Mm. I think absolutely give uhm Ellery a call

now. Grab that company.

THOMAS: But the, the, the thing is if you did it via

VPoint right, then I'm not completely limited to like

less than a hundred grand type pieces of work.

RASPA: Because there's

THOMAS: Because

RASPA: not an arrangement?

THOMAS: because there is no formal, there's, there's

a supply arrangement but you can't there's no mass of

services arrangement or uhm you know you just

RASPA: But I mean you're just getting the company in

or you’re getting them to do more work, more work,

more work, more work get more of a foothold and then

THOMAS: But

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 47


RASPA: when it comes to managed services we've got

to put in a bit anyway.

THOMAS: No, no it's total contract spend. So total

spend with a vendor not about individuals anymore

individual bits as it used to be.

RASPA: So how do we get around this Mister ah

structure a deal.

THOMAS: That's why, that's why I'm thinking Telstra

I'm going fuck me no one, no one will ever question

Telstra.

RASPA: So why don't we get this other company on

board and then try and I don't know. We could have a

word with Telstra.

THOMAS: In what way?

RASPA: Say hey we're about to get a lot of work, put

this company on your ah books. I don't know. The

process wasn't difficult to get (inaudible)

THOMAS: Oh the process wasn't difficult no. Uhm oh

well we could do. Absolutely.

RASPA: I reckon let's, let's start it off at, at

step one. Step one we need a company that's not

associated with us on the books. That's absolutely

THOMAS: Yeah.

RASPA: step one. So we need to get a hold of that or

organise that. Step two take over the world. (laughs)

THOMAS: (laughs) What I’m, what I'm, what I'm trying

to get to is a point where we've got some coin in the

bank to actually you know piss Vizstone off get some

people and, and actually create a business.

RASPA: The thing is we do have money in the bank, we

do have a business that can do that. That's the

disappointing part.

THOMAS: Yeah but Pete won't fucking buy into it.

Pete wouldn’t, Pete (inaudible)

RASPA: Oh I might have, I might have stooged you the

other day he uhm

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 48


THOMAS: Hey?

RASPA: I said how’d you go with Thommo’s proposal

and I sort of intimated it and he’s like Thommo

hasn’t talked to me about that oh

THOMAS: Fucking arse. Cos he rang me up and said oh

just been through it yeah it’s all good.

RASPA: Mate I don’t know. Don’t know. That’s what he

said to me.

THOMAS: Right.

RASPA: Fuck knows but anyway so. Give Ellery a call.

Let’s organise it or I’ll get uhm oh can Claire not

just put something through? Sign on a vendor?

THOMAS: Can Claire? No. It goes through a

procurement

RASPA: Which is?

THOMAS: and they, they, they do all the checks and

balances and all that sort.

RASPA: Which is uhm Shane.

THOMAS: No, no it’s Pria.

RASPA: Pria. So who submits it? So does it I mean

what I’m thinkin’ of is let’s say, let’s say thinking

laterally if we were to buy a comp, a pre-existing

company and you know (coughs) whose directors changed

recently who cares you know so if we bought a pre-

existing company

THOMAS: Yeah.

RASPA: you know a lot of years on the books. You

know that Paul Hesford is director of? Would that

raise any alarm bells with anybody?

THOMAS: Oh no, no other, other than the fact that

you’ re still stuck into quoting processes and the

more of those quoting type processes you go through

the harder it becomes.

RASPA: So you just say look ah I’ve been speaking to

this organisation here they have a person that can do

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 49


this uhm why don’t we get somebody in see how it

goes. But they’re already on the books.

THOMAS: Yeah but you, I mean

RASPA: And we organise the opportunities.

THOMAS: we get you know we get audited on everything

other than Telstra. Right? And, and part of the

reason is there’s, there’s just no point in ordering

oh ah auditing Telstra cos it’s just it’s they’re

fucked to deal with.

RASPA: Mm.

THOMAS: E, everybody knows it.

RASPA: I, I just truly believe now that you’ll get

yourself into trouble

THOMAS: Yep.

RASPA: because we’re gonna bullshit right we’re

gonna say okay Vizstone’s turned up okay Vizstone’s

doing the work yeah, yeah, yeah and then somebody’ll

speak to Gary Croucher say yeah that Vizstone’s

really good no, no, no I think Trusted Solutions is

the name of the company I thought. What?

THOMAS: No see I’ll just say that Telstra did the

work.

RASPA: Nah. Yeah oh that wouldn’t fly just not based

on the engagements that I’ve seen. You know like the

Kind Tech ones.

THOMAS: Don’t know.

RASPA: I reckon let ’s organise a company. Step one

speak to Ellery. Step two we’ll get uhm Hesford to

get one with a lot of history uhm and then we’ll get

them on the books if it’s not you not me we can just

tell Claire to submit this to Pria. Job done.

END OF TELEPHONE INTERCEPT.

NEVILL, MS: Thank you, Madam Associate. That can be

stopped there.

Mr Raspa, that’s a call on 15 February 2017 between

yourself and Mr Thomas?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 50


If we turn to page 1 of that transcript? At the bottom of

that page, you’ve referred to seeing Mr Ellery walk into

the Woodside foyer?---Yes, I - - -

And you wanted to approach him yourself, but you didn’t,

out of courtesy for Mr Thomas?---Yes.

And at page 3, halfway down that page, you say:

Number one job is to protect Thommo. That’s a

learning.

Now, by “Protect Thommo”, you meant conceal his involvement

in your new business venture, didn’t you?---No. This was

about, um, finding out what Paul’s idea was and, as you can

see through the phone call, giving him advice.

Well, your advice was, if we turn to page 4 - sorry, you’re

saying - halfway down that page, you’re saying you’re

getting a company in and getting them to do more and more

work. So you’re referring to Mr Thomas using his position

to award work to a company?---Would you just scroll up, so

- so I can get the context beforehand?

You’re referring to vPoint at the top there?---Okay.

And you knew at the time that vPoint was registered as a

supplier with Horizon Power, didn’t you?---That’s what I

was told.

So that’s what you knew, because you were told?---Yes.

Do you need a bit longer to read that transcript?---(No

audible answer).

And when you were saying:

You’re just getting the company in, getting them to

do more work, more work, more work, get more of a

foothold -

- you’re saying that Mr Thomas can use his position to

award work to a company?---Yes.

And then on page 5:

Step one, we need a company that’s not associated

with us on the books.

So you’re referring to a company that you can conceal your

involvement in from Horizon Power?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 51


That’s absolutely step one -

- and then further down on that transcript, we can see that

Mr Thomas has said:

Pete won’t fucking buy into it. Pete wouldn’t.

And he’s referring to Mr Noone?---Correct.

Mr Noone was not as keen on the idea of vPoint?---No.

And later on, you say - to the bottom of that page, you

say:

Give Ellery a call. Let’s organise it. Or I’ll get

- can Claire not just put something through?

So you’ve asked Mr Thomas to call Peter Ellery about

purchasing vPoint. Is that correct?---Correct.

And you’ve said:

I’ll get - can Claire not just put something through?

So you’re referring there to Claire Morris?---Yes.

And you’re proposing that you can ask her to sign on a

vendor?---Yes.

Using your position at Horizon Power?---Paul was - I’d

read(?), not mine.

You said:

I’ll get - can Claire not just put something through?

?---Yes.

And by sign on a vendor, you mean sign on a vendor at


Now the reason, Mr Raspa, you wanted a company that wasn’t

associated with you was because you worked at Horizon Power

and you knew it was a conflict of interest, didn’t

you?---For this idea, yes.

It’s more than just advice, Mr Raspa. It’s a plan, isn’t

it?---No. You know, Paul - Paul has a lot and a lot of

ideas. I’d expect you’ve got a lot of phone calls like

this. Ah, I used to always talk to Peter Noone as well and

take his advice.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 52


But you’ve said, “Step one”. You’re setting out a plan,

are you not?---Er, no.

Step one - - -

?---Step one, yes, but - - -

- - - we need a company that’s not associated with us

on the books.

?---This whole conversation is spit balling.

Sorry?---Is - is ideal - er, is an idea.

You were - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I didn’t hear you?---So this

whole conversation, as you can see from the start of it,

Paul’s context, he’s trying to propose an idea.

NEVILL, MS: And you’re stepping out the steps that you

could go through to carry out your idea:

Step one, we need a company that’s not associated

with us on the books.

Is that not what you said, Mr Raspa?---Yes, that’s what I

said.

Right. And then you’ve instructed him to “Give Ellery a

call”?---Yes.

Are you not telling Mr Thomas to give Mr Ellery a call

about buying vPoint?---Yes.

And then on page 6, you say:

If we were to buy a comp - a pre-existing company

and, you know, whose directors changed recently, who

cares, you know? So if we bought a pre-existing

company, you know, a lot of years on the books, you

know, that Paul Hesford is a director of, would that

raise alarm bells with anybody?

You’re proposing here that Paul Hesford be the director of

a company, are you not?---Yes.

And that company would be actually owned and run by

yourself and Mr Thomas?---As I said, this is only, ah, at

idea stage at this time.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 53


But that was your intention at the time of this

conversation?---That was part of the conversation.

And you said:

Would that raise any alarm bells?

So you’re concealing your interest in that company through

Paul Hesford?---You can also see how I said, er, in this

conversation, it wouldn’t work.

THE COMMISSIONER: So is it that you’re rejecting the idea

because it wouldn’t work, rather than rejecting the idea

because it’s wrong?---Rejecting the idea cos it’s wrong.

And subsequently, when I spoke to Peter - - -

Well, where do I read about in any of that, that you said

it was wrong?---We - we talked about, in this conversation,

the - there was also a conversation with Peter Noone.

Well, he thought it was wrong?---Yes.

You ever agree with him in any conversation?---Yes.

NEVILL, MS: And further down, you say to Mr Thomas:

So you just say, ‘Look, I’ve been speaking to this

organisation here. They have a person that can do

this. Why don’t we get somebody in, see how it

goes?’ But they’re already on the books.

And then you say:

And we organise the opportunities.

So Mr Raspa, you’re asking Mr Thomas to use his position at

Horizon Power to get somebody in, and then you organise the

opportunities?---Yes.

And at the bottom of that page, you’ve referred to

Vizstone. That’s Vizstone Proprietary

Limited - - -?---Mm hmm.

- - - owned by Kathryn Soares and Ben Chan?---Yes.

You were also interested in purchasing Vizstone?---Yes.

And the reason you were interested in Vizstone was because:

We’re gonna bullshit, right? We’re gonna say, ‘Okay,

Vizstone’s turned up. Vizstone’s doing the work’.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 54


?---That was not the reason why we were interested in

Vizstone, no.

But what have you proposed here in this conversation with

Mr Thomas?---Yes.

That you were going to “Bullshit”?---Ah, that’s what it

says, yes.

That you were going to buy Vizstone, or buy a share in

Vizstone?---We - again, when you go to buy companies, they

need to stand up and make sense. We, ah, looked at

Vizstone and we did not buy it, or were gonna buy a share

in it.

But at this stage, in this conversation, you were proposing

that Vizstone would show up to Horizon Power. Is that

correct?---That’s correct.

And that Vizstone would do the work. And that was bullshit

because you were behind - you were proposing to be behind

Vizstone?---We were not behind Vizstone.

That’s not what you were planning in this

conversation?---Er, that’s what it says.

And on page 7, halfway down that page, you say to

Mr Thomas:

Step one, speak to Ellery, step two, we’ll get

Hesford to get one with a lot of history, then we’ll

get them on the books. If it’s not you, not me, we

can just tell Claire to submit this to Pria. Job

done.

That was your plan, wasn’t it, Mr Raspa - - -?---It

absolutely - - -

- - - those - - -?--- - - - was - - -

- - - two steps?--- - - - not a plan. This is a

conversation, of which we had many.

Mr Thomas gave evidence to the Commission that you

discussed a purchase price with Mr Ellery. Do you recall

that?---Peter told me - ah, Ellery what he wanted for the

company, yes.

I’ll show you an email, Mr Raspa. It’s 2350.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 55


2350^

NEVILL, MS: You can see the title of this email is,

“Transfer of vPoint company”, and it’s an email from you to

Paul Hesford and Peter Ellery, as well as [email protected],

“CC: Haydn Hesford”. And it was sent on 31 March 2017.

And you’ve said:

Dear Mr Hesford,

Could you please call Claude Riberi of Rosemount

Partners and obtain four years’ history for the

company vPoint? Based on this information, we will

transfer the company. The payment will be $30,000,

based on having bank holdings of $20,000.

And you’ve included there your signature, Service Delivery

Director?---Yes.

You recall sending this email?---Yes.

So - and this was in March 2017. You were serious enough

about buying vPoint that you requested its history from its

accountants?---I asked Paul Hesford to have a look at the

company to do a valuation to see if it was worth buying.

So this wasn’t just a conversation? You had instructed

your accountant to take steps to look into vPoint?---Yep.

And he said it was not worth buying.


0879^


NOONE: Yeah, mate.

RASPA: Gidday buddy. Hey, uh I’m just running it by

you. Thommo’s uh, given me a task to do but I’m, I’m

sure he said he’s talked to you but uh, I’m just

looping you in to make sure. Uhm, so we’re buying

VPoint for thirty K and it has twenty K worth of

holdings.

NOONE: What are you talking about? I know nothing.

RASPA: (Laughs) So this is the company

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 56


NOONE: What are you talking about?

RASPA: Are you

NOONE: We haven’t even looked at the numbers.

RASPA: No, no, no.

NOONE: Are you kidding me?

RASPA: I’ve asked for the numbers. I’ve asked for

the, the uhm

NOONE: Yeah.

RASPA: The number, P and L.

NOONE: So when we get the numbers

RASPA: Yeah, yeah.

NOONE: So when we get the numbers we’ll look at it.

RASPA: No, as long as he fucken talked to you. Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

NOONE: Yeah, no, he, he said

RASPA: Yeah.

NOONE: He said we’re looking at buying

RASPA: Fucken freaking me out.

NOONE: No. He said

RASPA: Yeah.

NOONE: He said we’ll look at buying a portion of

the, of something and I said that’s fine. Let’s get

the numbers. We haven’t spoken anything about money

or numbers.

RASPA: Okay. No, no, no.

NOONE: What is it?

RASPA: So V

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 57


NOONE: What are you talking about buying?

RASPA: So Pete Ellery’s company right, so this is

the plan just to obviously, Thommo

NOONE: Oh Pete Ellery’s company?

RASPA: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

NOONE: We’re not buying that.

RASPA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We are, so the

NOONE: No.

RASPA: Just, just hold on, hold on, so this is the

NOONE: What the fuck for?

RASPA: This is the story. This is the story. I’ll

give it to you now.

NOONE: (Clears throat) We do, yeah. I know the

story. The story is it’s gotta be over a certain age,

blah, blah, blah.


NOONE: And we, we were gonna give

RASPA: For Horizon.

NOONE: the guy four grand for his company with

twenty grand in cash. Now we’re giving him what?

RASPA: No, no, no. Uhm, so his company has twenty

grand in holdings and we’re gonna give him thirty, so

ten effectively.

NOONE: Why the fuck are we giving him ten grand for

something worth nothing?

RASPA: So let’s have a look.

NOONE: It’s not worth a fucken penny.

RASPA: So hold on.

NOONE: We had a meeting at the Como and he said

we’re not gonna do it, and the last time we spoke

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 58


about buying something he said it was gonna be like

four grand.

RASPA: Nah. It’s developed.

NOONE: And I was like

RASPA: The number he just gave me was thirty and

it’s got twenty grand in holdings.

NOONE: What the fuck does twenty grand in holdings

mean?

RASPA: So it’s got twenty grand in the bank under

VPoint, so twenty, it’s got twenty grand in the bank.

NOONE: (Clears throat)

RASPA: In the bank account (indistinct).

NOONE: So why are we giving him ten thousand dollars

for something that has no value?

RASPA: So I’ve asked for four years’ P and L and,

and balance sheet and assets and shit like that so.

NOONE: But we haven’t agreed, we haven’t actually

said to the guy we’re gonna buy it?

RASPA: Uh, I, oh I, I think it’s been pretty quick.

We, no, we haven’t said we’re gonna buy it. We did

say we’ll look at your statements first.


RASPA: Based on, and based on that if it all fits

out then we will buy it.

NOONE: So the bit I don’t understand is my

experience, like normally in a company if he’s

leaving he takes the cash, like

RASPA: Yeah, yeah, so

NOONE: I, I

RASPA: that’s exactly what I said to Thommo.

NOONE: I don’t, I don’t get that. Like, is it

actually real or

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 59


RASPA: He, uh, I

NOONE: Look it, it’s just

RASPA: I just rang him. I just rang him and he goes

oh, it’s about nineteen thousand but it’s real. It’s

real cash in bank.

NOONE: But that doesn’t make any sense. If you leave

your, if you sell your

RASPA: Yeah.

NOONE: business, I, I don’t want

RASPA: That’s what I said but I don’t

NOONE: I don’t want your fucking cash.

RASPA: Take the cash out.


RASPA: What’s, then what’s the liabilities, all that

kind of shit but anyways so

NOONE: He’s a dodgy fuck this guy.

RASPA: I thought, I

NOONE: This is the guy that used to be, where did

this guy used to be?

RASPA: He used to be at Fuji with us.

NOONE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He’s a dodgy prick.

RASPA: Oh, he, he’s more of a drunk

NOONE: He’s a, he’s a

RASPA: than anything else.

NOONE: He’s a big guy, isn’t he?

RASPA: A little bit, yeah.

NOONE: Yeah. I say this from my van

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 60


RASPA: Yeah.

NOONE: Vantage point as well. Uhm (clears throat)

okay. Look, at, I don’t mind looking at it. I mean

obviously, you know, that might, like buying it with

the cash in might be great for him and we could ring

our accountants and they go well that’s, no that’s

actually income, chaps, so you got thirty per cent

liability. Uh, okay.

RASPA: Well, the thing is, the thing is

NOONE: I have no idea.

RASPA: Take this a step further. If this is what

(sneezes). You see the story is

NOONE: Bless you.

RASPA: Excuse me. So the story is we’re buying this

so we can make a play at Horizon, right, ’cos they’ve

got fifteen months. So basically we can uhm, you know

we might be able to do something with Viz. We might

be able to do something with, with this company. We

need a company. Uhm, it, it’s a great long play. It’s

a fifteen-month play, right? So it is, the bank

balance is nineteen six nine zero, by the way. He’s

just texted me, so twenty K.


RASPA: Uhm

NOONE: But I

RASPA: So the

NOONE: I get the idea

RASPA: Hang on, no, no, no.

NOONE: I

RASPA: Slow down. Let me get it out.

NOONE: Yeah.

RASPA: Let me get it out.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 61


NOONE: Yeah.

RASPA: So, so the, it, it’s got a massive payoff if

we can do it, right? The thing is we wouldn’t be able

to own this company. Uhm, you might be able to. I

can’t. Thommo can’t. Uhm, so Paul Hesford’s happy.

I’ve had a conversation with Paul Hesford. He’s happy

to put it under his name, uhm so it doesn’t, you

know, raise any alarm bells but uh, that’s where it’s

at.

NOONE: It’ll take someone, it’ll take someone

twenty-three seconds to work out that Hesford has a

relationship with you guys.

RASPA: Oh

NOONE: Like it would take

RASPA: Who cares?

NOONE: Like but there’s no, there’s no way

RASPA: But that’s okay.

NOONE: Yeah but there’s no way

RASPA: Yeah.

NOONE: that if you’re setting this up, right, you

cannot be setting this up to be hiding this. You just

can’t. You’ve got to be setting this up to be, to be

out and say I have an interest in this company. I am

a shareholder in this company. I’m not a director. I

don’t get to make decisions. I’m a shareholder. No

way Hesford’s

RASPA: If Hesford has it

NOONE: Hesford’s not

RASPA: If people can

NOONE: gonna bit a director of this. No way. Is he?

RASPA: Hesford will have it all and then uh, like,

it’ll be like Thommo’s shares under the Hesford uhm,

Benevolent Fund.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 62


NOONE: Yeah.

RASPA: So

NOONE: But it would take someone twenty-three

seconds

RASPA: Err

NOONE: to find the correlation.

RASPA: But that’s, mate, let’s, let’s talk about

that then, alright? Let’s find the cor

NOONE: Have you heard of Eddie Obeid?

RASPA: Let’s find the uh correlation there, right?

But it’s, we don’t own it. You don’t own it. I don’t

own it. Thommo doesn’t own it. It, so it doesn’t

matter if somebody works

NOONE: (Coughs)

RASPA: out that there might be a relationship there.

None of us own it.

NOONE: (Coughs) The last person who used this

defence is Eddie Obeid. He got five years (clears

throat). Like is it, if you want to put, if you want

to put forward for this, this business, then you,

like I thought, as I understand it Thommo was not

involved in the decision around this. The decision

would be completely independent of Thommo, right? So

you either have a good story and a good business and

you can sell it into Horizon and you declare your

interest ’cos it’s got nothing to do with him. I’m a

shareholder in that company. I have nothing to do

with it. I’m not involved in the tender. I’m not

involved in anything. That’s what you should be

doing. Is that what the situation is?

RASPA: I, mate, all I’ve been asked, I’ve been given

a little information and I’m just helping him out on

it so that’s why I’ve given

NOONE: But like if we need but

RASPA: you a phone call.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 63


NOONE: No, which I get right, but if we wanted to

find a, but this company that we’re buying doesn’t

have a history in solar or anything, does it?

RASPA: Uh, dunno, dunno what’s, it’s got history in.

NOONE: So we actually just need an old company is

what you’re saying?

RASPA: Uhm, to a certain extent but the, no, the,

the benefits are this specific company is on the

books at Horizon Power.

NOONE: Right.

RASPA: So that’s a major benefit.

NOONE: Right.

RASPA: So it’s got, so you don’t need to go through

any of the

NOONE: Right, pre-approval

RASPA: Uh

NOONE: Pre, yeah, right, okay.

RASPA: Exactly.

NOONE: I didn’t know that.

RASPA: So that it’s got a big history

NOONE: No one’s told me that before.

RASPA: at Horizon Power so there’s a major benefit

here. So they’ve got the insurances. It’s got the

(indistinct) line. It’s not gonna ring any alarm

bells. They’re not gonna search for directors. You

know, you just carry that on.

NOONE: I think Thommo needs to have a very, very

long, hard thought about what he’s doing because this

is the thing that he found out four years ago that

scared the living shit out of him last time and now

he’s running headlong back into it when we don’t need

to.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 64


RASPA: Well, this is what you need to do, right? So

raise your concerns with him, uhm

NOONE: No, it’s not my

RASPA: Have a chat with him.

NOONE: I, I’ve got, I’ve got no liability or

concern. You guys are the guys with the

RASPA: I’ve got no lia

NOONE: lia, you, you, you have.

RASPA: I’m a contractor.

NOONE: Yeah but at some point you’ll, you’ll sign

something that says you don’t have a conflict of

interest on something.

RASPA: Not if I’m not on the tender team.

NOONE: If you’re not on the tender team you’re fine

but I mean Thommo

RASPA: Thommo, yeah.

NOONE: Oh, wait a minute, what’s it say in your

employment contract?

RASPA: Yep, uh

NOONE: If it says something in your employment

contract they’ll sue your arse.

RASPA: Yep, so

NOONE: And Thommo’s will definitely have it in

there.

RASPA: So there you go. Uhm, so that’s that.

NOONE: Right.

RASPA: And I will, so I’ve just sent an email out

just before I gave you the phone call for

NOONE: Yeah.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 65


RASPA: uh Hesford to get the uh last four years, the

company trading history

NOONE: Right.

RASPA: so we can review.

NOONE: Yeah, yeah. So (clears throat) look, I, I

mean I don’t, if we need a, I get the fact that we’re

buying this company. I mean Peter Ellery knows that

as well, why you’re buying it as well. He’s as dodgy

as fuck. I mean, this is the problem with this stuff.

You end up sleeping with scumbags.

RASPA: (Laughs)

NOONE: Well, you do. You know, you, you’re not

dealing

RASPA: Yeah, I know.

NOONE: You go, you go to the dark side and you end

up dealing with people you can’t trust and you, you

know, he’s just likely to say, I mean if you got the

work out of it Ellery’d go, oh, that’s nice. Thommo

got that work, hmm, might have a chat with Thommo

about that. Uh, Thommo, that’s a bit of a conflict of

interest isn’t it, matey? Like to have a chat with

you about that.

RASPA: Yeah.

NOONE: (Clears throat) That’s, I’m, I’m just

surprised that he wants to put himself back into that

situation. He was shitting himself. He went and saw a

lawyer and found out that he would be on the hook

for, you know, whatever occurred previously for years

and now he wants to do this. It’s fucking bizarre.

RASPA: (Laughs) Well, have a chat with him.


RASPA: Suss it out, mate.

NOONE: I will. I mean, I never knew

RASPA: You know.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 66


NOONE: I never, the, the, the bit, the piece of the

puzzle I never knew and why it’s worth ten thousand

dollars, Thommo never told me it was on the books at

Horizon.

RASPA: Yeah. It’s got a full history, yeah.

NOONE: (Clears throat) Yeah.

RASPA: Although I think he’s been dormant uhm, as a

business for six months.

NOONE: So if he’s dormant at some point they’ll

clear him off.

RASPA: Uh, not at Horizon, not at Horizon.

NOONE: They’ll leave him on?

RASPA: Yeah.

NOONE: Okay, oh.

RASPA: Uh, so that’s good.

NOONE: Look, okay. I’ll, I’ll give Thommo a call

RASPA: Which means

NOONE: Uhm

RASPA: I don’t think he has any insurances and those

insurances wouldn’t transfer anyways, would they?

NOONE: Yeah, so

RASPA: Dunno.

NOONE: So, so look, I, look, get the financials.

Have a chat with Adamo by all means. Don’t understand

why, why we have to buy it with the cash. I don’t get

that. That might be good for him, maybe not good,

good for us. Let’s have a look. And I mean ten grand

for a business? Ten grand for nothing. That’s what

we’re spending. We’re spending ten grand for a shell.

RASPA: Yeah, essentially.

NOONE: That we may never use.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 67


RASPA: Yeah, uh

NOONE: Well, we are.

RASPA: Mate, we could, it’s a, it’s a ten grand

gamble. Let’s put it that way. It’s a ten grand

NOONE: Well, fucken hell.

RASPA: gamble that could make us millions.

NOONE: That’s five, that’s five trips to the Macau

strippers, mate.

RASPA: (Laughs)

NOONE: (Laughs)

RASPA: It’s a, it won’t, it won’t even

NOONE: Sorry. I need to put it

RASPA: Won’t even get us there mate. Won’t even get

us there. That’s the problem.

NOONE: I needed to put, I needed to put it into

terminology you could understand.

RASPA: What, what’s, what did that trip owe us?

Twenty grand?

NOONE: Yeah.

RASPA: Twenty? Is that, is that the number?

NOONE: Thommo wants to go on another one. He knows

it’s twenty so it’s half the trip.


NEVILLE, MS: That can be stopped there, thank you, Madam

Associate.

Mr Raspa, that was a call between yourself and

Mr Noone?---Yes.

Yes? And it was on 31 March 2017. So if we turn to page 1

of the transcript, you’ve said:

Thommo’s given me a task to do. I’m sure he’s talked

to you about it. I’m just looping you in.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 68


?---Yes.

And - - -?---I wanted to make sure that Paul had talked to

him.

Yes. But Mr Thomas had given you the task of getting the

financials through the accountant?---Yes.

And you’ve said to Mr Noone:

We’re buying vPoint for 30K. It has 20K worth of

holdings.

And that’s consistent with the email that you just sent to

Mr - - -?---Yes.

- - - Hesford earlier that day? And if we go to page 3, so

Mr Noone is clarifying at the bottom of page 2:

Pete Ellery’s company, right?

Sorry, that’s you, Mr Raspa. You’re saying:

Pete Ellery’s company, right? The plan is?

And Mr Noone has said:

We’re not buying that.

And you’ve said:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we are.

So at that stage in this telephone call, you had an

intention to buy vPoint?---We were still talking about it

at this point.

Yes, but you’ve confirmed - - -?---And we haven’t seen -

but further on, you can see we hadn’t looked at the books

yet or made that decision.

Yes. Certainly. But you’ve confirmed for Mr Noone that

your intention was that you were going to buy the

company?---That we were looking at the company based on

financials.

And then if we turn to page 6 of that transcript, at the

bottom of that page, you’ve said to Mr Noone:

The story is we’re buying this so we can make a play

at Horizon, right? Cos they’ve got 15 months.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 69


So you’re saying to Mr Noone that you’re buying vPoint, is

that correct?---There’d be - yes, that is the plan.

So you can make a play at Horizon?---Yes.

And what did you mean by:

They’ve got 15 months.

?---I actually don’t know.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you must - - -?---This section, I

don’t - I’ve got - - -

No, this was a conversation last year. What were you

talking about?---Sir, I’d - I honestly don’t understand the

15 month context. Paul would have told me but I don’t

understand the context behind that one.

NEVILL, MS: Was it something to do with the Empired

contract?---Could have been.

At page 7 of the transcript, halfway down that page, you’ve

said:

It’s got a massive payoff if we can do it, right?

The thing is, we wouldn’t be able to own this

company. You might be able to, I can’t, Thommo

can’t.

Now, you said this because you knew that Mr Thomas was

employed at Horizon Power, didn’t you?---Yes.

And you knew that you couldn’t because you were also

engaged at - - -?---Yes.

- - - Horizon Power? Sorry?---Yes.

And then you said:

Paul Hesford’s happy. I’ve had a conversation with

Paul Hesford.

You had several conversations with Mr Hesford, didn’t you,

about being the Director of a company?---Yes.

He’s happy to put it under his name so it doesn’t

raise any alarm bells.

And there, Mr Raspa, you’re referring again to concealing

your involvement in vPoint if you did purchase it, aren’t

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 70


you?---No, we - we were looking at the books and we wanted

to make sure - like, this is why I wanted to speak to

Peter, to make sure that he was happy with this, cos he was

my sounding board.

Sure?---And he was the one that warned me off it.

But you haven’t answered my question, Mr Raspa?---Sorry.

If you just look at that transcript, you’ve said:

I’ve had a conversation with Paul Hesford. He’s

happy to put it under his name so it doesn’t raise

any alarm bells.

?---Yes.

So by that, you mean that Mr Hesford would be the Director

so that you could conceal your involvement in the

company?---That was the idea.

And at page 8 of the transcript, so you’re - you’ve just

said, Mr Raspa, that you used Mr Noone as a sounding board,

and he’s just given you some advice at the top of this

page. Mr Noone has said:

You just can’t. You’ve got to be setting this up to

be - say, ‘I have an interest in this company. I’m a

shareholder in this company. I’m not a Director. I

don’t get to make decisions’, and then you’ve -

- he’s asked you to be upfront, hasn’t he?---Yes.

But you haven’t agreed. You’ve proposed that Mr Hesford

can be the Director and shareholder?---In this

conversation, yes.

So in your response to Mr Noone’s advice, you’ve said:

If Hesford has it, Hesford will have it, it will be

like Thommo’s shares under the Hesford Benevolent

Fund.

?---Yes.

And later down that page - thank you, Madam Associate -

Mr Noone refers to Eddie Obeid. What did you understand

him to mean by that?---I don’t know the - the whole Eddie

Obeid story, but when, um, Peter put it into terms that it

was illegal, that it was wrong, well, that’s when we

stopped.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 71


Well, he’s referred to Eddie Obeid in this conversation and

you haven’t stopped. In fact, you’ve gone on, Mr Raspa.

You’ve said - - -?---In - in this conversation, cos I

didn’t know who Eddie Obeid was.

Right. Well, we’ll just look at the transcript. He’s

referred to Eddie Obeid. You haven’t asked him who Eddie

Obeid is but you’ve said:

We don’t own it. We don’t - you don’t own it, I

don’t own it, Thommo doesn’t own it.

By “Own”, you meant that it didn’t show on ASIC records.

Isn’t that what you meant?---Yes.

And again, Mr Noone refers to Eddie Obeid:

He got five years.

And he has given you more advice:

You either have a good story and a good business and

you can sell it into Horizon and you declare your

interest, cos it’s got nothing to do with him, ‘I’m a

shareholder in that company. I have nothing to do

with it. I’m not involved in the tender. I’m not

involved in anything’. That’s what you should be

doing.

And instead of agreeing with him, Mr Raspa, you’ve gone to

say:

The benefits are this specific company is on the

books at Horizon Power.

?---Um, I’d been given little information and I’m just

helping out.

Yes, but you knew that the plan was to disguise your

ownership of vPoint Technologies - - -?---Again - - -

- - - if you were to purchase it?---Mm. This was an idea.

And the benefit of purchasing vPoint was that it was on the

books at Horizon Power, was it not?---Yes.

And you’ve said:

That’s a major benefit.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 72


So rather than agreeing that you should declare your

interest, you’ve proposed a way of getting around it

because vPoint is on the books at Horizon Power?---Yes.

We’ll turn to page 10. Again there, you’re fleshing it

out:

It’s got a big history at Horizon Power so there’s a

major benefit there. They’ve got insurances. It’s

not going to ring any alarm bells. They’re not going

to search for directors.

Again, Mr Raspa, you’re referring to concealing your

interest in vPoint because it was already on the books at


And you knew this from being engaged at Horizon

Power?---Yes. Oh, no, I did not know that. I was told

that.

And later on, you’ve said that you’re a contractor when

Mr Noone has referred to disclosing and he - on page 11 -

sorry, just on the bottom of page 10, Mr Noone says:

At some point, you’ll sign something that says you

don’t have a conflict of interest on something.

And on page 11, Mr Noone has asked:

What’s it say in your employment contract?

Did you go away and look at your employment

contract?---No. I was still under the belief that I was a

contractor.

But we saw earlier - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, just say that again?---No, I did

not go back and look at my employment contract.

NEVILL, MS: Now, do you accept, Mr Raspa, that we showed

you your contract earlier this morning and it said that you

had to declare your interests, conflicts of interest, to

Horizon Power in writing?---Yes.

And do you accept that the Code of Conduct applied to

contractors?---Yes.

I can show you the clause, if you’d like?---No.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 73


THE COMMISSIONER: We’ve done that.

NEVILL, MS: And you’ve said later in this conversation:

I’ve just sent an email out.

So that was the email that you sent to Paul Hesford?---(No

audible answer).

YOVICH, MR: The witness is nodding. He needs to remember

that he’s got to say.

NEVILL, MS: Sorry, just verbally for - - -?---Yeah.

- - - the transcript?

YOVICH, MR: Don’t just nod or shake your head. Say yes

or no?---Okay.

NEVILL, MS: And at page 13 of the transcript, at the

bottom of that page, Mr Noone has asked:

10 grand for nothing. That’s what we’re spending.

We’re spending 10 grand for a shell.

And you’ve confirmed:

Yeah, essentially.

?---That we may never use.

But you said:

It’s a 10 grand gamble.

?---Yes.

In this conversation, Mr Raspa, Mr Noone has raised several

times declaring the conflict, and you didn’t agree with

him. You proposed ways to get around it?---No, I took it

under consideration. Um, I went away and researched Eddie

Obeid and that’s when we knew it was wrong and we didn’t go

ahead with it.

I’ll play you another call, 0880.

0880^


10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 74


HESFORD: Mate buying a company can put you into all

sorts of shit if they’ve got anything they’re not

declaring.

RASPA: So this guy is dodgy as well, ah just a heads

up there.

HESFORD: Yeah well mate I wouldn’t I wouldn’t be

buying the fucking company.

RASPA: No, okay so this goes back to my plan, all

right? So this ah this shields me from another issue.

So

HESFORD: Yep.

RASPA: very long story short

HESFORD: Yeah.

RASPA: uhm I

HESFORD: Well I reckon get the figures.

RASPA: these these people uhm

HESFORD: Yep.

RASPA: so these people on the books at Horizon?

HESFORD: Yep.

RASPA: They have current records so they’re already

on the books. Which means if we transfer the company

HESFORD: Yep.

RASPA: there’s no dodginess there. So that’s

HESFORD: Yeah okay. What

RASPA: probably the sole reason why we want this

company.


NEVILL, MS: So that was a call that you had with Mr Raspa

- I’m sorry, with Mr Hesford?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 75


And he’s called you just minutes after he received your

email asking him to obtain four years’ history in

vPoint?---(No audible answer).

Sorry. Instead of nodding, can you say yes?---Yes. I

assume so.

If we turn to page 2 of the transcript, you’ve said to

Mr Hesford:

These people on the books at Horizon, they have

current records. They’re already on the books, which

means if we transfer the company, there’s no

dodginess there.

You’re - and you’re referring to vPoint, aren’t you?---Yes.

On the books at Horizon Power?---Yes.

And that if you purchased it, the dodginess wouldn’t be

revealed?---And earlier on, he advised me of the risks.

But that was the sole reason you wanted the company?---The

- vPoint, yes.

I’ll play you call 0889 - sorry, 0887.

0887^


HESFORD: Well you now, now when you say I scared him

enough, I was right in what I said.

RASPA: No, no, absolutely and, and we kinda all knew

and Noonie, Noonie is a risk adverse person.

HESFORD: Yeah.

RASPA: So we’re actually a little bit jacked off

HESFORD: Well mate, I don’t, I don’t

RASPA: because we might of

HESFORD: well in all honesty

RASPA: missed an opportunity

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 76


HESFORD: I don’t know if I would of, would have been

buying it.

RASPA: You would or would not?

HESFORD: Would not of.



NEVILL, MS: That’s a call on 13 April 2017?---Yes.

Between yourself and Mr Hesford, your accountant?---Yes.

And the reason you didn’t buy vPoint was because Mr Noone

was a risk-adverse person?---Yes.

And the - you actually were:

A little bit jacked off about it.

?---Absolutely.

It wasn’t because you knew it was wrong, it was because

Mr Noone wouldn’t get on board?---Absolutely not. We all

had to be on board, um, and Peter raised the risks and I

agreed.

THE COMMISSIONER: Even though you thought you might have

missed an opportunity?---I - we thought we might have

missed, but that’s better than the alternative.

NEVILL, MS: I’ll play you call 0889.

0889^


RASPA: So what we want to do, right, is this is

where we’ve been going on about this company history,

not history, blahblahblahblahblah.

HESFORD: Yep yep yep yep mm.

RASPA: Right it’s all, that’s why we were going to

buy the VPoint. If we bought VPoint it would have

sorted out all our problems, happy days. Right.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 77


HESFORD: Yep.

RASPA: But that didn’t happen ‘cause we were all

worried, I don’t know.

HESFORD: Yeah.

RASPA: The level of risk would have been small, but.

HESFORD: I I mm, mate I honestly I wouldn’t have

bought it, Anthony. And you know I do all sorts of

things

RASPA: Yeah yeah.

HESFORD: but I wouldn’t have bought that company.

RASPA: Okay. So that makes me feel better then.

HESFORD: Yeah.

RASPA: It does make me feel better.

HESFORD: Yeah yeah.

RASPA: Actually, you would have been the one that

was buying it.

HESFORD: Putting my name on it.

RASPA: [laughs]

HESFORD: [Indistinct] You know that word.

RASPA: So, we we need, so long story short, right?

What we’re gonna do

HESFORD: Yep yep.

RASPA: is we are positioning a company to take over

work from Horizon Power, right?

HESFORD: Yep yep.

RASPA: And then we want to be you know, two streams

down

HESFORD: Yep.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 78


RASPA: And obviously take a cut

HESFORD: Yep.

RASPA: which is uh not very legal, but there you go.

HESFORD: Yeah.

RASPA: Uhm so we need a company with you the head

of, this is

HESFORD: Yeah yep.

RASPA: what I’m saying from earlier on

HESFORD: Yep yep yep.

RASPA: that we can just channel that into.

HESFORD: Well we could probably just use a, I’m

thinking

RASPA: Do you have an existing one, and existing

bank account or

HESFORD: Well I’ve got, well I’ve actually got my

company, Adamo Corporate. Now, I’m thinking of

actually giving that up.

RASPA: Oh yeah?

HESFORD: Like just getting rid of it, because

instead of bloody doing two lots of tax returns and

two lots of BASs and shit, if I just get rid of Adamo

Cor- I was going to get rid of Adamo Corporate,

‘cause I do all the company st- mate, look leave it

with me. I’ll just

RASPA: Why don’t we do that? Why don’t we do that?

HESFORD: Well well, well.

RASPA: Nothing changes for you. We’ll pay for that.

And then cause it still has to be under your name.

HESFORD: We, ‘cause, yeah yeah but I’ll just check

to see if I’m allowed to do companies in, under the

accounting, okay?

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 79


RASPA: Yeah yeah.

HESFORD: That was the only, the only one thing I was

going to check.

RASPA: Under, oh okay okay.

HESFORD: Yeah yeah.

RASPA: So

HESFORD: ‘Cause you know when you, when when oh you

mightn’t see ‘em, ‘cause you don’t get ‘em for Raspa

Contracting, but when I, we send out bills for the

secretary- ah, no I can’t, because Azza’s doing

those. And I’ve gotta hi- yeah nah sorry. Yeah no

I’ll have to think of something else.

RASPA: [sighs]

HESFORD: ‘Cause I’m paying I’m paying Azza through

there.

RASPA: Why don’t we pay Azza through there?

HESFORD: Yeah oh I suppose you could too, couldn’t

ya? I’ll think over it tonight, okay?

RASPA: So have a think about it because long story

short

HESFORD: Yeah yeah yeah.

RASPA: right we would want you to stay, keep the

company under your name right?

HESFORD: Yep yep yep.

RASPA: So it doesn’t hit us anyway so actually

nothing would change for you, except we would be

paying for it.

HESFORD: No. Okay okay.

RASPA: Then we would just channel the funds into

there and then we would just look after you.

HESFORD: Okay, no worries I will give that serious

consideration.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 80


RASPA: So if not we need just an alternate to that

mate

HESFORD: Yeah yeah.

RASPA: a uh company with Paul HESFORD as the person

that you know, a two dollar company that we just hold

funds in.

HESFORD: Yep yep. But why does it have to be an old

one? Instead of another new one?

RASPA: No, it doesn’t anymore, that that’s past

mate.

HESFORD: It doesn’t. Oh, well look

RASPA: No nah.

HESFORD: why don’t I just set up another one?

RASPA: Yeah, so that’s the

HESFORD: So so

RASPA: option

HESFORD: if you call it Ch-

RASPA: So if you don’t need Adamo

HESFORD: No.

RASPA: well then nobody, we don’t need, you don’t

need to pay for another company, we’ll just pay your

fees on that.

HESFORD: Yeah.

RASPA: But if you if you need to keep that one, then

just create another one under your name, and we’ll

just pay for that mate.

HESFORD: Yeah yeah. Okay, because I’ll call it like

uhm Cheating Horizon Power, or something like that.

Good name?

RASPA: What was it? ChOh yeah yeah that sounds

awesome. That’s not going to raise any eyebrows.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 81


HESFORD: [laughs]

RASPA: Nice. It’s just going to be uh Holdings. Paul

Hesford Holdings.

HESFORD: Okay yeah nah okay, or Adamo Holdings.

RASPA: Yeah.

HESFORD: Yeah okay.

RASPA: Holdings. Done.

HESFORD: No worries. Done.


NEVILL, MS: Mr Raspa, that’s a call between yourself and

Mr Hesford?---Yes.

On 20 April 2017?---Yes.

And at this stage, you had decided not to buy vPoint, so if

we turn to page 1, you said:

That’s why we were going to buy vPoint. It would

have sorted all our problems.

And then at page 2, halfway down the page:

Long story short, right, what we’re going to do is we

are positioning a company to take over work for

Horizon Power and we want to be two streams down and

obviously take a cut.

There’s no other way of interpreting those words, is there,

Mr Raspa?---Ah, no.

You were positioning your company to take over work from

Horizon Power?---We certainly had the idea.

And you wanted to be two streams down, meaning you didn’t

want your involvement to be apparent?---Yes.

And that you were going to take a cut?---Yes.

And you knew - you said:

It’s not very legal, but there you go.

?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 82


Mr Raspa, it’s difficult to believe that you didn’t buy

vPoint because you thought it was wrong when you’ve had

this conversation proposing an alternate illegal way of

obtaining money from Horizon Power?---We continued to get

advice and again, we came to the conclusion - this is why

nothing happened, because it was wrong.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you continued to try up until the

time that the Commission executed search warrants, didn’t

you?---I can’t recall.

The real reason why nothing happened was because the

Commission intervened. Isn’t that correct?---No, sir.

NEVILL, MS: So you said at the bottom of that page:

We need a company with you, the head of, this is what

I’m saying from earlier on, that we can just channel

that into.

So again, you’re proposing that Mr Hesford be the Director

of the company?---Yes.

And that you and Mr Thomas would channel money into it, and

business?---Yes.

And at page 4 of the transcript, at the bottom of that

page, you said:

Keep the company under your name so it doesn’t hit us

anyway.

You’re referring there to you and Mr Thomas, aren’t you,

when you say, “Us”?---Ah, the company.

And by:

So it doesn’t hit us -

- you meant nobody could detect your interest in the

company?---Yes.

And at the top of the next page, on page 5:

A company with Paul Hesford as the person. A $2

company that we just hold funds in.

By “A $2 company”, you mean a company with no significant

assets?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 83


Which is essentially a shell company?---I don’t know.

And that Mr Hesford would be the Director?---Yes.

And then Mr Hesford goes on to say:

I’ll call it Cheating Horizon Power.

That was in reality what you wanted to do with that

company, wasn’t it?---He - he was obviously joking.

But he made that joke because of what you were instructing

him to do, didn’t he?---Um, yes.

That can be taken down, thank you, Madam Associate.

We learnt - we mentioned earlier, Mr Raspa, a company known

as Vizstone Pty Ltd. Mr Thomas gave evidence that one of

the purposes of buying Vizstone was to go after Horizon

Power business. Would you agree with that?---I think we’d

talked about it but nothing came to fruition.

But one of the purposes was to go after business at Horizon

Power?---I - I don’t see how, if we weren’t Directors.


0891^


THOMAS: Uhm but anyway. But that you know this has

to happen in the next couple of weeks right, you, you

can’t, we, we have to have a direction and if we’re

going after Horizon Power’s business.

RASPA: If, if you’re absolutely serious about it

right, cause I am, I’m a hundred percent in mate

whatever it takes. I’ll drop everything

THOMAS: Right.

RASPA: else and soley focus on this but

THOMAS: And that’s why I was saying to Claire I

RASPA: you are

THOMAS: really need the meeting to happen sooner

rather than later.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 84


RASPA: you’re in the, you’re the lead here buddy,

you now how far we can push it and

THOMAS: Yeah.

RASPA: if you tell me XY Anthony, do one, two,

three, I’ll do one, two, three before you know.

THOMAS: Yeah.

RASPA: So but I’m just worried that you know we need

to do something, we’ve been a lot of talk before so

let’s, let’s smash it.

THOMAS: Well.

RASPA: Whatever construct, I’m in.

THOMAS: The construct has to change with Horizon

Power in the next. So the decision in the next

probably, uhm fuck I’m going to wrong way, the

decision has to happen within the next four to five

weeks

RASPA: Yeah.

THOMAS: and then the

RASPA: Okay. Well let’s do it.

THOMAS: the, the, the implementation of that

decision has to be between now and September.

RASPA: Alright we better get ahead of this mate

because Yogesh won’t wanna leave IBM as well.

THOMAS: Well it is IBM’s business.

RASPA: Yeah, so that’s what we’re doing.

THOMAS: (Laughs) So that’s the whole point

RASPA: (Laughs)

THOMAS: right, we do IBM’s business and that is also

think about Chris Yuen and and Empired and say

actually we’ll do, we’ll do those projects,

infrastructure projects (child crying) through

Vizstone.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 85


RASPA: There you go.

THOMAS: Uhm.

RASPA: Mate I am in. You know I’m in and I’ll do

whatever it takes.

THOMAS: Well we just, it’s just gotta happen but I

don’t know how we land the commercials around it.

RASPA: Mate well, that’s a good problem, good

problem to have.

THOMAS: Oh look we’ve just gotta move mate. We’ve

just gotta.

RASPA: Okay so how busy are you over the coming

weeks mate?

THOMAS: I am fucken stretched like you wouldn’t

believe.

RASPA: So

THOMAS: But

RASPA: You do what I do, you work

THOMAS: there’s, I can always do breakfast and I can

always do after work.

RASPA: Yeah , we’ve just gotta do it and that’s it.

THOMAS: Uhm well I just wanna get Kathryn’s appetite

on making the change.

RASPA: And what kind of construct? They’re gonna

want a little bit of money

THOMAS: Yeah, yeah that’s (indistinct)

RASPA: and that’s fair enough too.

THOMAS: Absolutely. So the construct is probably

three hundred thousand dollars. If their twelve

months ago were worth six hundred thousand then that,

that was six hundred for fifty percent wasn’t it?

RASPA: Six hundred for fifty.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 86


THOMAS: Yeah so they’ll want at least that.

RASPA: Was it six hundred for fifty? I can’t recall,

I can’t remember. No, I need to look it up, no I

think it was six fifty for everything.

THOMAS: Was it?

RASPA: Yeah, I’ll check my email.

THOMAS: Right. So whatever it is right it was six

hundrish so. No, no I’m sure it’s six hundred for

fifty percent.

RASPA: Nah I thought it was like six five eight or

something in total.

THOMAS: Right. So even if we said we want fifty one

percent right it’s gotta be, it’s gotta be at least

three hundred and fifty.

RASPA: Yeah.

THOMAS: Of which we could probably say we’ll give

you two hundred as a cash payment and in twelve

month’s time if you’re achieving the, the road map

that you told us you’d achieve we’ll give you the

remaining amount.

RASPA: Yep. We can, we can construct that easy.

THOMAS: And then basically

RASPA: And then we keep the, we’ll keep Crowe

Howarth and that’ll pay for it anyways.

THOMAS: Yeah and we will ah and.

RASPA: For twelve months if that, that’s actually a

good play cause that’s gonna end in twelve months so

that’ll be very good.

THOMAS: But you know those types of things we can,

we can construct the commercials quite easily I

think.


NEVILL, MS: Thank you, Madam Associate.

That was a call between yourself and Mr Thomas?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 87


On 4 May 2017?---(No audible answer).

And if we just go to page 1 of the transcript, Mr Thomas

says:

We have to have a direction if we’re going after

Horizon Power’s business.

So you were discussing with Mr Thomas positioning a company

to go after Horizon Power’s business, weren’t you?---Yes.

And you said:

I’m 100 per cent in, mate. Whatever it takes. I’ll

drop everything else and solely focus on this.

So you were right on board, weren’t you?---Within reason.

You didn’t say, “I’m 100 per cent in within reason”, did

you?---Like previous times, you know, it - if it was

illegal, we wouldn’t have gone ahead with it.

But you’ve just proposed to Mr Hesford in the earlier call

positioning a company two streams down from Horizon Power,

which you said in your own words, Mr Raspa, was:

Not very legal.

?---Yes.

It’s just implausible for you to say that you were on board

if it was legal?---I understand what you’re saying.

On page 2, you said:

If you tell me, ‘X, Y, Anthony, do one, two, three’,

I’ll do one, two, three before you know.

Again, you are 100 per cent in. You’ll do anything that

Mr Thomas tells you to do?---Yes.

And then you’ve said:

Whatever construct, I’m in.


By construct, you meant whatever entity you and Mr Thomas

created to go after Horizon Power business?---There are

always boundaries.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 88


Whatever construct -

- you’ve not referred to boundaries there, have you?---Not

in this conversation.

And is it the case that by construct, you meant whatever

mechanism you came up with?---Um, yes.

At the bottom of that page, Mr Thomas says:

We’ll do those projects, infrastructure projects,

through Vizstone.

And you said at the top of the next page:

There you go. Mate, I am in, you know? I’m in and

I’ll do whatever it takes.

So again, Mr Thomas is referring to positioning Vizstone to

do projects at Horizon Power, is that correct?---That’s

what he’s positioning.

And you’ve said:

I’m in. I’ll do whatever it takes.

?---Yes.

I’ll play you another call. It’s 0915.

0915^


RASPA: This is in my mind the third reason to

orchestrate this, is to take the Horizon business.

NOONE: Yeah but this is, the thing is, like in six

years of pie in the sky, we’re going to win Crowe,

we’re going to get this, we’re going to do these

things blah blah blah. None of them have come off,

not one, right? That’s not what is going to happen.

Meat and potatoes, you know, we’ll work at Woodside,

maybe getting a few contractors, uhm the Schneider

thing, maybe getting a little bit more out of

Schneider and farming those accounts a little bit

more. That’s what is going to happen, and that’s what

is going to continue to happen, right.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 89


I mean these great big you know, we’re going to do

this great big thing and it’s going massively

successful, it doesn’t happen, you know. And we would

have seriously, we would have in the bank right now

another hundred-eighty grand if we hadn’t gone down

the path of employing people as sales, in sales

roles.

RASPA: Oh yeah definitely, definitely.

NOONE: So you know if

RASPA: but this is not a, this is an asset don’t

forget.

NOONE: No, no look I get it and look I’m happy to

look at the numbers, and if she’s got like you know

two year engagements with con, with people and it’s

all good, that’s great. But I mean you could just as

easily buy this thing and then, you know Yogesh is a

great guy I agree, and if she is still in, if she

introduces Yogi as a manager or I don’t know, that

can work really well, I’m really interested in that

RASPA: And then

NOONE: uhm

RASPA: then don’t forget, I mean Thommo can

orchestrate uhm that business to take over. I mean

they need to take over, so we’re actually losing the

uhm opportunity on the Horizon apps. So Yogesh is not

only there right, so Viz, so what we’ve been doing is

Vizstone is in there now, we’ve got a network guy,

we’ve got Tony Harris in there all under Vizstone, so

Vizstone is actually getting a name in our

department. Yogesh has already got a fantastic name

now

NOONE: When did you do that?

RASPA: Sorry?

NOONE: When did you do that?

RASPA: So we did it last, within the last month I

think so. They’ve got guys

NOONE: (Indistinct)

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 90


RASPA: so the network guy, Paul Jones is leaving, we

got a network guy from Vizstone.

NOONE: Where’s Paul Jones going?

RASPA: He’s going to another IT manager role.

NOONE: For who?

RASPA: Ah some Chinese gold miner, new Chinese gold

miner, you’ll probably know them, I can’t

NOONE: Whereabouts?

RASPA: even remember their name. Uhm so it’s already,

we’re already orchestrating that if Yogesh moves

across as Apps, all the deliveries with him and it is

quite easily, it’s an easy piece to see, here you go

Yogesh

NOONE: Yeah I,

RASPA: take that on.

NOONE: Yeah I agree it makes sense but I mean

Thommo’s, Thommo’s going to have all sorts of

troubles

RASPA: No he’s not

NOONE: is the thing.

RASPA: because we wouldn’t own the business.

NOONE: Well who would?

RASPA: Paul, Paul ah Hesford.

NOONE: No, that was, that fucking doesn’t work.

RASPA: (Laughs) there’s, there’s a construct

NOONE: isn’t that

RASPA: that will work.

NOONE: It won’t it doesn’t work, going and have a

Google, go and pay

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 91


RASPA: Yeah I know

NOONE: Twenty-nine dollars

RASPA: I know, I know what you’re saying

NOONE: and do an ASIC search right now

RASPA: we, we don’t need to hear that story again.

NOONE: Hello Mister Obeid how are you. I mean, is

this Eddie Obeid?

RASPA: Mate I’m happy to ah do that and create that

business mate.

NOONE: So anyway

RASPA: (Laughs) You don’t have to own that business

with us, me. I’m okay.

NOONE: I’m just, uhm yeah whatever

RASPA: I’d go down that path alone.


NEVILL, MS: Mr Raspa, this is a conversation between

yourself and Mr Noone?---Yes.


If we go to page 1 of the transcript, so you’re referring

to taking the Horizon business?---Yes.

And that’s the context of this entire conversation, is it

not?---Yes.

And on page 2, you said to Mr Noone:

Thommo can orchestrate that business to take over.

You are proposing that Mr Thomas use his position at

Horizon Power to award work to a business, aren’t

you?---Ah, yes.

And you’d already taken steps to position Vizstone, hadn’t

you?---Ah, I didn’t, no.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 92


Vizstone is in there now. We’ve got a network guy.

We’ve got Tony Harris in there, all under Vizstone.

?---I think you’ll find that I had nothing to do with those

two individuals.

But you were at least aware of what was happening?---Post,

yes.

Well, you - you were aware at the time of this

conversation, were you not? You’ve referred to Tony Harris

and you’ve referred to the network guy:

So Vizstone is actually getting a name in our

department.

?---So to be specific, I know - knew about those two

gentlemen after they had started.

But at - at this conversation, you referred to Tony

Harris?---Well, I knew that they were in there by that

time, yes.

And you knew that Vizstone was getting a name in your

department?---Yes. But if you scroll up to page 1, this

conversation actually reaffirms, um, from Peter’s comments,

six years of pie in the sky. Um, not one of them had we

done, so - - -

THE COMMISSIONER: No, you’ve been trying to do

it?---Sorry?

You’ve been trying to do it?---But we - there’s been a lot

of ideas, a lot of talk. We haven’t gone through with any.

Well, you’ve been trying. You’ve been trying to get

Mr Hesford to use his company. You’ve gone to vPoint, gone

to Vizstone, come up with another idea for Mr Hesford. The

fact that they didn’t come to fruition doesn’t mean you

weren’t trying. You were trying, weren’t you?---I take

your point.

NEVILL, MS: At page 3 of the transcript, Mr Noone is

saying:

Thommo is going to have all sorts of troubles.

And you’ve said:

No, he’s not, because we wouldn’t own the business -

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 93


- as in, you wouldn’t be named on the ASIC records, is that

correct?---Correct.

But in reality, you would own the business, wouldn’t

you?---Um, I don’t know the construct we would have set up.

Well, this conversation is about positioning a company to

obtain business from Horizon Power, is it not?---Yes.

And Mr Noone said:

Well, who would?

And you’ve said:

Paul Hesford.

So again, Mr Raspa, you’re proposing that Mr Hesford be the

Director of the company to conceal your interest?---Yes.

And even though Mr Noone has said that Mr Thomas is going

to have all sorts of troubles, you’ve not discussed

declaring the conflict. You’ve proposed that Paul Hesford

be the Director of the company to get around it, have you

not?---Ah, I - that’s what I proposed.

And then on the last page of the transcript, Mr Noone says:

‘Hello, Mr Obeid. How are you?’ I mean, is this

Eddie Obeid?

By this stage, had you gone away and done research about

what Eddie Obeid had done?---I think so.

And in spite of that, you’ve gone ahead and said:

I’m happy to do that and create that business, mate.

Haven’t you?---I was teasing through that, because I

wouldn’t have done it without him.

You said:

You don’t have to own that business with me. I go

down that path alone.

?---Because I wanted him to come along.

But your words are there on the page?---But that’s not the

context.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 94


THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it is the context. What other

context is there?---That I wanted him to. I would have

done it without him.

Well, that’s not what you said to him. You - - -?---No,

that’s - - -

- - - said quite the contrary?--- - - - not what is said

there.

You didn’t say, “I won’t do it without you”, you said,

“Well, I’ll go it alone”?---Because I was trying to goad

him into coming along.

That’s the context, is it?---Yes, sir.

NEVILL, MS: Now, you said earlier, Mr Raspa, that you

were not aware that Mr Harris was going to be engaged at

Horizon Power. Is that the best of your

recollection?---That is my recollection.

I’d like to play you a call from 29 March 2017. It’s 0876.

0876^


RASPA: Paul Thomas, what’s going on?

THOMAS: Hiya mate.

RASPA: G’day mate what’s happening?

THOMAS: Are you in the office?

RASPA: I am.

THOMAS: You are. Can you talk?

RASPA: Yeah shoot.

THOMAS: Uhm just wanted to follow up on your SMS

about setting up that company.

RASPA: Ooh, which one, which one, from ages ago?

THOMAS: So yeah you know I said I was going to pull

out on buying Pete Ellery’s business.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 95


RASPA: Yes.

THOMAS: And then the next day he sent me a note

saying should we just go for it.

RASPA: Yeah bloody oath.

THOMAS: What’s the ah, what’s the cost involved in

it?

RASPA: Oh look it’d be around a grand I reckon cost,

500 to a grand. (Pauses) Max.

THOMAS: Yeah?

RASPA: Yeah.

THOMAS: So, so here’s my thought process at the

moment, and at some point I need to get my stupid

ideas out on paper.

RASPA: I love stupid ideas.

THOMAS: Uhm

RASPA: (Laughs)

THOMAS: I thought there’s fifteen months left on the

Empired contract.

RASPA: Yes. (Clears throat)

THOMAS: Right uhm, and as you know and I know

they’re not doing the bestest job at the moment.

RASPA: No.

THOMAS: All right and you can argue like, like Mark

does, that they’ve undercut the budgeting and all

that sort of stuff. But when it comes down to it

they, they knew our environment, they bid on it and

I’m just going that’s just ordinary.

RASPA: Mm.

THOMAS: So me, me thought process at the moment is

if we had an alternate company I could bring a couple

of people in through that company now right? And I’m

thinking namely somebody like a Tony Harris to do a

review of the Empired contract.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 96


RASPA: Okay.

THOMAS: Right, but get it, get them fronting

Vizstone as well.

RASPA: Mm’hm.

THOMAS: And then, then we’ve got a fifteen month

play to slowing build it to get ‘em to a position to

be able to bid for the contract.

RASPA: Okay yep. I understand.

THOMAS: Right, and if we had somebody like a Tony

Harris, who, who by the way is as cheap as chips at

the moment.

RASPA: Yeah because he, he hasn’t been in work for

ages, as he?

THOMAS: Sixteen months he hasn’t been in work.

RASPA: Fuck, how could you even survive?

THOMAS: Uhm

RASPA: I couldn’t even survive something like that.

RASPA: I couldn’t survive two months mate I’d be

fucked.

RASPA: Oh yeah. Absolutely.

THOMAS: Uhm but uhm, what am I thinking there is he,

I think he’d be able to build a reasonable

relationship with Shane.

RASPA: Okay yep.

THOMAS: Right, and if we were to do something like

that and he’s, I know he’s got a good relationship

with Ian Saunders.

RASPA: Yeah yep.

THOMAS: Right, he could slowly just pick away at

those two guys and, and, and position, not Vizstone

as Vizstone but Vizstone as whatever we decide it’s

going to be.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 97


RASPA: Would we ah just not buy in (pauses) and fit

Tony in there for our interest?

THOMAS: Yeah we could but we need, we need

RASPA: Oh we’ve also got Andy as well.

THOMAS: Oh no Andy’s only short term mate, don’t,

don’t make any mistake that’s Andy’s staying around.

RASPA: Okay.

THOMAS: He, he, the reason I’m only paying him like

almost nothing is, I have to keep him hungry to go

after the bigger prize for us.

RASPA: Okay cool.

THOMAS: All right, if gets comfortable then I’d, we,

we’re almost [indistinct]

RASPA: ‘Cause if he gets that job at ah Bankwest

which I, I have to recommend him for.


NEVILL, MS: Thank you, Madam Associate.

That’s a telephone conversation between yourself and

Mr Thomas?---Yes.

On 29 March 2017?---Yes.

And at page 1, Mr Thomas has said:

You know I said I was going to pull out and buying

Pete Ellery’s business?

And on page 2, he said:

He sent me a note saying we should just go for it.

And you said:

Yeah, bloody oath.

You were still keen at that stage, weren’t you, to get

vPoint?---I was - vPoint? No, the vPoint had passed.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 98


If we turn to page 3 of the transcript, Mr Thomas there is

proposing:

Somebody like Tony Harris to do a review of the

Empired contract.


And Mr Thomas says:

Right. Get them fronting Vizstone as well.

And Mr Harris began at Horizon Power on 9 June 2017, so in

March, at this conversation, you were aware that Mr Thomas

was planning on getting Mr Harris into Horizon Power?---I

was aware of his idea.

The next call I’ll play for you is from May 2017. It’s

0914.

0914^


THOMAS: Is Pete

RASPA: Nothing big, nothing big.

THOMAS: being negative again or was it just a

RASPA: Oh no, no, no he’s just he’s, I just had to

convince him. But uh he doesn’t seem convinced yet.

THOMAS: So this is the acquisition of Vizstone or is

this doing work at Horizon?

RASPA: Acquisition of Viz.

THOMAS: Right. I see I I think it plays perfectly

into my world now.

RASPA: Yeah exactly. We’ve gotta.

THOMAS: ‘Cos I it’s, it’s very easy now for me to go

Horizon Power and go the company that I’m a

shareholder of has just brought a company that does

business with Horizon Power.

RASPA: Oh, I wouldn’t even do that mate. I’d just

stay well away from that conversation and uh well out

of the company. Job done.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 99


THOMAS: No, I, I’d have to declare it mate. There,

otherwise it’s just a, but what I need to do is

secure some decent business first.

RASPA: Yeah.

THOMAS: And then afterwards declare it.

RASPA: Well, I’m not. I’m not gonna dec, look I’m

not going to declare it cause ah I’ll make sure that

I’m not on the company register.

THOMAS: No, you don’t have to declare it, no.

RASPA: But even you don’t. And I said that even if

they go ‘cause they’ll do a company search and

they’ll say nuh, you’re not on it.

THOMAS: Yeah nah no I, at some point I need to

declare it because

RASPA: Yeah, at some point later on, but.

THOMAS: because at some point it will come out.

RASPA: Nah, later on, yeah.

THOMAS: I, I’m a, I’m a firm

RASPA: (laughs)

THOMAS: firm believer that

RASPA: Work it out.

THOMAS: too many people fucken talk.

RASPA: Yeah, no worries buddy.

THOMAS: Ah I had a bit of a chat to Yogi today about

it


NEVILL, MS: All right. Can we stop there,

Madam Associate?

This is a conversation between yourself and

Mr Thomas?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 100



At page 1, Mr Thomas says:

It’s very easy now for me to go Horizon Power and go,

‘The company I’m a shareholder of has just bought a

company that does business with Horizon Power’.

And you said:

Oh, I wouldn’t even do that, mate. I’d just stay

well away from that conversation and well out of the

company.

You’ve told Mr Thomas not to declare any interest?---That’s

what I said.

And when you say, “Stay well out of the company”, you meant

off the ASIC records, didn’t you?---Ah, yes.

And on page 2, Mr Thomas says:

What I need to do is secure some decent business

first.

So you understood that he was proposing to secure business

and then possibly declare his interest?---Yes.

And then, Mr Raspa, you said:

I’m not gonna - look, I’m not going to declare it cos

I’ll make sure I’m not on the company register.

You were discussing there concealing your interest in the

company, are you not?---Yes.

By not being on the ASIC records and then not declaring

it?---Yes.

You had no intention of declaring any

interest - - -?---This was - - -

- - - in another business?--- - - - one of the - his stupid

ideas.

Whose idea, sorry?---This was one of the stupid ideas.

But it came from - - -

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 101


THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it may have been a stupid idea,

but it was one that you were floating, wasn’t it?---We

talked about it.

Nobody suggested ever it was sensible.

NEVILL, MS: I’ll show you an email. It’s exhibit 2362.

2362^

NEVILL, MS: The title of this email is, “TSIT Vizstone

offer”, and it’s from you to Mr Thomas on 14 August 2017.

And you’ve attached a document at page 4 and it sets out:

What TSIT understand Vizstone want -

- and there are some paragraphs there. Can you see that,

Mr Raspa?---Yes.

And:

What TSIT could offer.

And there’s various options. What was the purpose of this

email, Mr Raspa?---Ah, this was the original ideas that we

all bandied around on if we could buy Vizstone.

And the - do you recall if these tracked changes are your

changes?---It - yes, that one there, it says it’s mine. I

don’t know about the other ones.

Sorry, you’re - you’re referring to the comment

there?---Yes.

“AR1”?---Yes, I’ve made the comment there.

But you’re not sure if the other changes are yours?---No.

But in any case, you reviewed this document, didn’t

you?---Yes.

And you’re sending it to Mr Thomas for his comment?---Yes.

And this email was sent in August 2017, so you were serious

in August 2017 about buying Vizstone, weren’t you?---Ah, we

were having conversations with them.

And you’ve set out there the options for which you could

purchase the shares?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 102


And Ms Soares, the co-owner of Vizstone, has given evidence

to the Commission that she had many discussions with you

about business opportunities. Would you agree with

that?---Yes.

I’ll play you another call, Mr Raspa. It’s 0900.

0900^


RASPA: Noonie rang this morning because he’s trying

to get the SSL certificate for the work site

THOMAS: Yeah

RASPA: and he’s like oh have you talked to you know

anybody about the merging of the businesses. I said

yeah, yeah I had a chat with Ben. He’s goes oh yeah

did he take it, I said look if it’s our only play

it’s our only play so right (laughs).

THOMAS: (Laughs)

RASPA: So whatever

THOMAS: I, I, I must admit I did, I did nearly ring

you on the weekend and just say ah just go and get

that sham company set up out of what’s-his-name.

RASPA: Mate that’s just sitting there waiting

THOMAS: Uh

RASPA: (Indistinct)

THOMAS: and what we’ll, what we’ll just start doing

is pushing people through Vizstone into Horizon.

RASPA: Easy.

THOMAS: Right, in that sham company just make some

money out of it and uhm, uhm then if Pete wants to

get involved at some point he can, if not I don’t

care (pauses). Right?

RASPA: Yeah I, I agree we got to do something.

THOMAS: Just get

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 103


RASPA: Got to get rich.

THOMAS: Just get something happening that we can use

and then go somewhere else.

RASPA: Better (indistinct) I think I mean Vizstone’s

a launching pad so let’s go from there.

THOMAS: Yeah.

RASPA: We need to keep up those conversations, where

you, did you

THOMAS: I, I , I have shot

RASPA: have you called

THOMAS: shot Kathryn and Ben a note saying, just

want to follow up on my previous email. What, what,

what’s your thoughts?

RASPA: (Yawns) Any response?

THOMAS: No, no response yet. Well today, I think I

did it on Friday so

RASPA: Okay

THOMAS: uhm we’ll wait and see but I follow up Ben

and just see what his, what his thought process is.

RASPA: Yeah. When we go, we should go to uhm the

office one day and have a look.

THOMAS: Oh yeah absolutely. I’m just trying to work

out which day this week I’m going to go out selling

again.

RASPA: Oh, oh

THOMAS: I’m

RASPA: that day pop into their office.

THOMAS: Yeah, I know I wanna, you know meet people

like Mike Thomas and stuff like that.

RASPA: Beautiful.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 104


THOMAS: And ah, see what we can do to sell somebody

some shit.

RASPA: (Laughs) Fair call, fair call.

THOMAS: No wor

RASPA: All right mate

THOMAS: worries I’ll see you in a bit.

RASPA: Yeah done deal see you soon bye.

THOMAS: Tata, tata.


NEVILL, MS: So this is a call from 28 August 2017?---Yes.

And it’s between yourself and Mr Thomas?---Yes.

And you were still interested in Vizstone at this stage,

weren’t you?---Yes.

At page 2, Mr Thomas says:

We’ll just start pushing people through Vizstone into

Horizon.

You understood him to mean positioning Vizstone to win work

from Horizon Power?---Ah, that was - sound like what he was

trying to do.

You said:

Easy.

And then he refers to the “Sham company”. Is that the

company that you were proposing Mr Hesford be Director

of?---Ah, er, I don’t know what it’s referring to. I can

assume that.

And you’ve said:

Got to get rich.

So that was your objective, wasn’t it?---Yes.

And you’ve also said that:

Vizstone’s a launching pad, so let’s go from there.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 105


So you had other plans once Vizstone had been put in

place?---Vizstone - even though Horizon Power’s mentioned

here, er, Vizstone was - er, we were trying to buy to

create an, er - more people for our business.

And you’ve said:

We need to keep up those conversations.

You mean with Ms Soares and Mr - - -?---Yes.

- - - Chan? And then you’ve proposed visiting the Vizstone

office?---Yes.

I’ll play you call 0854.

0854^


THOMAS: I’ll be honest in my mind I’m going how do I

create a little entity, wrap up Horizon Power, rape

as much as I can out of it and then we both fuck off.

RASPA: See I see you having same issues at Horizon

Power mate. So I see you having right ah let’s get

this person on the books, right how new is the

company? Brand new. How many people are there? Well

oh we’re going bring people on board. So I reckon you

know you’ll come across the same issues and then do

you need to go to market you know?

THOMAS: Absolutely

RASPA: You can’t just give it to somebody

THOMAS: we would have to go to market, there is no

doubt about that.

RASPA: Yeah. So if you’ve got a Vizstone with Yogesh

at the helm uhm you know, you and me don’t have any

ties in there, it’s going to be a pretty easy ah

decision.

THOMAS: But you’re also looking, so, so that, so the

thing, if I read their email right, they’re running

on a debt right they’re not profitable.

RASPA: Oh yeah they’ve got credit cards on

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 106


THOMAS: Right

RASPA: absolutely

THOMAS: Uhm so you put revenue into that business

and all it’s doing is, is obli, is, is fixing their

debt problem. You don’t actually get anything out of

it.

RASPA: Well no, according to what you were saying is

they are earning and paying back you know, Katherine

the debt.

THOMAS: Apparently that’s what they’re telling us.

RASPA: Well, that’s what the books are showing.

THOMAS: Well

RASPA: And Noonie was quite happy with that.

THOMAS: Yeah and then until we asked uhm, uhm Mister

Chan to put money in, he’s like oh fuck we haven’t

got any.

RASPA: Yeah. So I don’t know mate I’m just uhm

struggling to

THOMAS: Oh look don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to

see

RASPA: see a way out.

THOMAS: I don’t want to see TSIT die, I really don’t

uhm but I also I’m not too sure I want to put two-

hundred thousand dollars into Katherine’s business.

RASPA: Yeah (sighs) I don’t know. Mate. Tell me,

tell me the best way here?

THOMAS: You know you’re probably better to put two-

hundred thousand dollars into a share and hope to

Christ it gives you a return.

RASPA: Yeah.

THOMAS: Buy, buy two-hundred thousand dollars’ worth

of Woodside shares and sell them when they hit

thirty-six dollars or whatever it is. Ah look I don’t

mate I’m uhm I am genuinely struggling with this one.

And normally I can see a bit of a, a road map.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 107


RASPA: The reason is I just think if Horizon’s going

to be a play you know, you need that once removed

company.

THOMAS: Do you wanna, do you wanna to dilute the

opportunity that much?

RASPA: I don’t, definitely not. But can we do it?

You and me?

THOMAS: I don’t know, I don’t know. I mean

RASPA: So if you and me, so if you and me can’t do

it then yes, I don’t want to lose it absolutely. So

if it gets me from A to B, shit yeah.

THOMAS: Yeah.

RASPA: Shit yeah. So what everybody misses, what

Noonie just always misses right? Is you can’t get

from A to C without going through B. Alright?

THOMAS: Oh yeah, yeah.

RASPA: So if we need to go through B I am all for it

right, if we don’t need to, then happy days.

THOMAS: I mean there is the alternative which is we

create a ten dollar company and just use Vizstone as

a contracting mechanism.

RASPA: And get them to put in the percentage so you

know

THOMAS: and we just, we give them a patter of points

between five and ten.

RASPA: Ooh is that too dodgy?

THOMAS: Oh no. It’s no dodgier.

RASPA: Absolutely (laughs)

THOMAS: Right, we’re not then I mean we are

artificially growing their business but we’re not

massively artificially growing their business.

RASPA: You could have both cakes you could say look

I’m going to give you the Horizon business, chuck

money in here and (laughs) pay commission. Pay

commission and ah we’ll be part of the business. I

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 108


don’t know, I don’t know, let’s work out a structure

that you and I are cool with

THOMAS: I mean Pete, Pete

RASPA: Noonie won’t, Noonie would definitely not be

cool with ah you know

THOMAS: Pete would not go for that

RASPA: No, no that’s undeclared commissions

THOMAS: That’s, that’s the

RASPA: so

THOMAS: whatever he calls it yeah

RASPA: Yeah

THOMAS: Under handed

RASPA: so Pete will opt out

THOMAS: commission

RASPA: Yeah

THOMAS: But as long as I’m not seen on those books,

it doesn’t matter

RASPA: So yes alright.

THOMAS: So Raspa Consulting could absolutely wrap up

all those contractors. Put it in through Vizstone and

ah you’d have to give me a brown paper bag on a

monthly basis (laughs).

RASPA: Raspa Consulting could absolutely speak to

all the guys there and say come across to me I’ll pay

ya if this uhm deal works out.

THOMAS: Absolutely.

RASPA: But I don’t know, you need to work out how

real, you, we could

THOMAS: As long

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 109


RASPA: orchestrate that

THOMAS: as I’m not, as long as I’m not a part of it

and

RASPA: Yeah.

THOMAS: there is not trace back to me, I can do

exactly what I want.

RASPA: Well if you moved all the projects across to

me and this ah, and this consulting, happy days.

THOMAS: Yeah. I mean we could even do a panel

contract with Vizstone and Duncan Hayes and a few

others and, and just the reality is we just say well

Vizstone is winning them or Raspa’s winning them and

putting them through Vizstone.

RASPA: Yep, or we you know, best of breed

THOMAS: Right.

RASPA: where the uh the project management are.

THOMAS: Well at that point you couldn’t hold your

current position

RASPA: Well that’s okay, if we won mate, if we won

right realistically we could get this and then you

know what, we could then got to Western Power,

Synergy all these other places.

THOMAS: Yeah.

RASPA: Multiply

THOMAS: Oh look I

RASPA: our money

THOMAS: Absolutely.


NEVILL, MS: Mr Raspa, that’s a call from 27 September

2017?---Yes.

So at that stage, you were still very interested in

Vizstone, weren’t you?---Ah, we were talking about it. Um,

you can tell even I’m over it by this point.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 110


But you were still considering Vizstone?---It was, yes, a

talk.

THE COMMISSIONER: Actually, in fairness to you, I can’t

tell that you were over it by that point?---I, um, say in

here, “Is it real?”

NEVILL, MS: And a week later, Mr Raspa, the Commission

executed a search warrant. So the reason Vizstone didn’t

go ahead was not because you thought it was wrong, but

because the Commission intervened?---No, absolutely not.

Vizstone was a dream. It - we’d - we’d talked about, ah,

many ideas. Like all the ideas, it wouldn’t happen.

I’ll refer you to page 1 of the transcript, 0854.

0854^

NEVILL, MS: So when Mr Thomas proposes raping Horizon

Power, you have referred to the same issues at Horizon

Power. But they’re not about his conflict of interest, are

they? Do you want to take a moment to read that,

Mr Raspa? You’ve referred to having to go to

market?---This - my reference here is every time we talked

about it, er - er, it’s the same issues. You can’t do it.

I’ll just take you to that paragraph:

I see you’re having the same issues. I see you’re

having - right, let’s get this person on the books.

How new is this company? Brand new. How many people

are there? Oh - well, oh, we’re going to bring

people on board. So I reckon you’ll come across the

same issues and you need to go to market.

So what you’re concerned about there, Mr Raspa, and you can

correct me if I’m wrong, is that you were concerned more

about having to go to market, rather than Mr Thomas having

to disclose his interest?---No. This conversation is

purely about - er, it’s - the idea’s over. The - “You’ll

have the same issues. You work through, step through the

ideas, yeah, it’s impossible to do it”.

THE COMMISSIONER: Where does it - where do you get the

impression that the idea is over from this

conversation?---So:

I see you having the same issues at Horizon Power.

So trying to get a person on the books:

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 111


How do you - the company’s brand new. They’re not

gonna accept you on the books. Um, how many people

do you have in your company? Oh, well, you know,

we’re going to have to bring people on.

It’s not a realistic company. Um, so these are the same

issues - same issues. You couldn’t get them on the books.

It’s impossible.

But if you had Vizstone with Yogesh there, be easy?---Er,

that’s not - - -

Well, that’s what you - - -?--- - - - part of this - - -

- - - said?--- - - - conversation at the moment.

That’s what you said?---Further down - er, not - not at

this point, sir.

Well, at the bottom of that page?---So then we say:

Could you give it to somebody?

NEVILL, MS: So are you not, Mr Raspa, proposing a

solution to the issues you’ve identified by proposing

Vizstone, just further down on that transcript?---It was a

idea, but it was pretty flaky.

And when you said:

You and me don’t have any ties in there -

- you meant again, you would conceal your interest in the

company, didn’t you?---We could not set up Vizstone - - -

But - - -?--- - - - and conceal our interest.

- - - that’s not my question, Mr Raspa. When you said:

You and me don’t have any ties in there -

- you meant you were going to conceal your interest in

Vizstone?---Yes.

At page 3, Mr Raspa, you’ve said to Mr Thomas:

The reason - I think if Horizon’s going to be a play,

you know, you need a once-removed company.

Now, you’re referring again to business from Horizon Power,

aren’t you?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 112


And when you say “A once-removed company”, it’s the same

concept as you - what you referred to, to Mr Hesford being

two strings down and doing something illegal, isn’t

it?---Ah, we talked about it, yes.

And then you’ve said:

Can we do it, you and me?

Mr Thomas says:

I don’t know. I don’t know.

And you say:

So if you and me - if you and me can’t do it, then,

yes, I don’t want to lose it, absolutely.

It sounds like you’re very happy to go ahead with Mr Noone,

aren’t you?---Here, my, “Can we do it?” I didn’t - - -

“You and me”?--- - - - believe we could do it.

“You and me”. You were referring to yourself and

Mr Thomas?---Yes.

So it’s not that you would have stopped if Mr Noone wasn’t

on board, you would have gone ahead?---I don’t believe so.

I’ve always flowed back to Peter.

Well, what does it say here? “You and me”?---Yes, that’s

what it says.

And Mr Thomas, further down, refers to creating a

ten-dollar company:

And just use Vizstone as a contracting mechanism.

And then you’ve proposed:

And get them to put in the percentage.

?---Yes.

So what Mr Thomas is proposing is that contractors be

engaged through Vizstone, is that correct?---Yes.

At Horizon Power, is that correct?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 113


And then you’ve proposed that:

Get them -

- being Vizstone -

- To put in the percentage.

Is that what you meant?---Yes. And again, I’ve said:

Is it too dodgy?

Cos - - -

Well, yes, you did say, “Is it too dodgy?” Mr Thomas said:

No, it’s dodgier.

And you said:

Absolutely -

- and laughed. And then, Mr Raspa, on the following page,

you said:

You could have both cakes. You could say, ‘Look, I’m

going to give you the Horizon business, chuck money

in here and pay commission’. Pay commission and

we’ll be part of the business.


Now, what you’re proposing there is that Mr Thomas give

Horizon Power business to Vizstone and pay commission, and

that you and Mr Thomas would be part of the business

receiving that commission. Is that not what you’re

saying?---Yes.

And that’s the same model that you used with TSIT and CXC,

isn’t it?---What, sorry?

That TSIT received payments from CXC - well, from Horizon

Power through CXC, and Mr Thomas was, as Horizon Power,

paying commission.

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, the - I got lost in that

question - - -

NEVILL, MS: Sorry, Commissioner. I’ll withdraw that.

So if you go further down, Mr Raspa, Mr Thomas says:

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 114


Pete would not go for that.

And you’ve said:

No, that’s undeclared commissions.

?---Correct.

What did you understand that to mean?---That we wouldn’t go

ahead because it would be undeclared commissions.

Well, what do you understand “Undeclared commissions” to

mean?---Ah, that we would get a percentage.

And what’s wrong with it?---An undeclared commission?

Yes?---So if you’re doing a, ah - a sale, ah, I’m assuming,

you know, all parties would need to know.

And then Mr Thomas says:

As long as I am not seen on the books, it doesn’t

matter.

And you’ve said:

So yes, all right.

So you’ve agreed?---Er, we talked about it.

Well, Mr Thomas is saying as long as he’s not on the ASIC

record and has concealed his interest, it doesn’t

matter?---Yes.

Is that correct?---Yes, that’s what we said.

Mr Raspa, on the following page, you’ve said:

If we won, realistically, we could get this and then,

you know what, we could then go on to Horizon -

Western Power -

- sorry -

- Synergy, all these other places.

That was your plan wasn’t it?---This is, um - so from the

Raspa Contracting part. Um, that was like the fourth idea

on the page.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 115


But you wanted to go after business not just at Horizon

Power, but at Western Power and Synergy?---Oh, yes.

To multiply - and, on the following page, to multiply your

money?---Yes.

Mr Raspa, you intended to cheat not just Horizon Power, but

whichever government agencies you could get

into?---Absolutely not. This isn’t in the realms of

possibility, this conversation.


Mr Raspa, you and Mr Thomas, together, intended to set up a

company to win work from Horizon Power, didn’t you?---We

talked about it.

And at various points, you considered buying a shell

company, or a two-dollar company, is that correct?---We had

many ideas.

Sorry, can you speak up?---We had many ideas.

But you considered buying a shell company or a two-dollar

company?---Considered.

But you didn’t just consider it, you instructed Mr Hesford

to find a company with a trading history?---And then we

stopped.

But you instructed Mr Hesford - - -?---We looked.

You instructed - - -?---Er - er, yes.

- - - Mr Hesford to find a company with a trading history,

did you not?---Yes.

And you asked him to be the director of that company?---We

did.

And you instructed Mr Hesford to review the financial

history of vPoint Technologies?---Yes.

You knew that Mr Thomas intended to use his position as a

Manager at Horizon Power to award work to an entity that

both you and Mr Thomas had an interest in, didn’t you?---I

didn’t think it was in the realms of possibility.

But in those telephone calls we just - - -?---Yes.

10/05/18 RASPA, A.D. XN 116


- - - played, would you accept that?---Er, yes.

And you facilitated this by taking steps to carry out those

plans?---We had conversations.

And you never had any intention of declaring your interest

to Horizon Power, did you?---Ah, no.

And you were aware that Mr Thomas wasn’t going to declare

his interest, weren’t you?---We hadn’t done anything at

that time.

But you were aware - - -?---That we were talking, yes.

In fact, you actually discouraged him, at several points,

from making a declaration, didn’t you?---In that one

conversation.

Commissioner, I have no further questions.

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

Mr Yovich?

YOVICH, MR: Your Honour, I note the time. I don’t know

what time your Honour was planning to have lunch?

THE COMMISSIONER: If you would like time, I will give you

time.

YOVICH, MR: I wouldn’t mind.

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.

Because I’m still getting used to the fact that we’re no

longer in the CBD, and to give you time to return to

Chambers, if you wish, we’ll adjourn until 2.15.

YOVICH, MR: I’m obliged.

(THE WITNESS WITHDREW)

(LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT)

Certificate Made Under Section 50A of the

Evidence Act 1906

The transcript of Anthony Darren Raspa heard on 10 May 2018

was made in good faith and, subject to any

qualification referred to below, is correct, accurate

and complete transcription of the contents of the

recording;

was produced from recordings that were suitable for

making an accurate and complete transcript except

where otherwise stated in the body of the transcript.

Any “indistinct” or “inaudible” or other notations

indicating difficulty with the transcription contained

within the transcript refers to those parts of the

proceedings that could not be accurately transcribed

due to speech clarity, recording quality or other

factors impacting word intelligibility.

Certified on this 11th day of May 2018 by: Richard Moore

Full Name: Richard James William Moore

Occupation: Transcriber and officer of the Commission

under the Corruption, Crime and Misconduct Act 2003 ss 182,

3 who has taken an oath before the Commissioner.

Signature: Richard J Moore

Epiq Australia

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Perth WA 6000

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