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COURT OF APPEALS OF PERUGIA
CRIMINAL CHAMBERMINUTES OF HEARING ISSUED BY phonogramSpace reserved for the storage
MINUTES PAGES: n. 182MINUTES CHARACTERS: n. 283 430
PRESIDENT Dr. Claudio Pratillo HELLMANPROSECUTION N. 10/10 RGCAAN. 9066/07 RGNRAGAINST: MARIE AMANDA KNOX + 1
SITTING ON 30/07/2011 PG0002 ClassroomOutcome: Goal hearing on 5 September 2011.RG 10/10 RGNR 9066/07 - 30/07/2011 c / A. KNOX + 1
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COLLEGE:PRESIDENT DR. CLAUDIO Pratillo HELLMANDIRECTOR DR. MAXIMUM Zanetti (Rapporteur)ACTUAL PEOPLE'S COURTS: FABIO ANGELETTIRANIERI SIMONETTACALISI ANNACHRISTMAS PAOLAButchers FEDERICAMasciovecchio ANTONELLAJUDGES POPULAR ADDED:MARTINI DANIELABellafante RICCARDOGianluca MaiottiChialli MAUROATTORNEY GENERAL: DR. Giancarlo CostagliolaPROSECUTOR: DR MANUELA COMFORTABLECHANCELLOR MARIA CentorrinoACCUSED AND DEFENDERS:1) MARIE AMANDA KNOX, HELD THIS PQC - DEFENSECONFIDENCE by the lawyer. LUCIANO Ghirga ADVOCATE OF PERUGIA,THIS and lawyer. CHARLES THE WIDOW OF THE ROME,THESE.2) PROMPT RAFFAELE, HELD THIS PQC - DEFENDED OFCONFIDENCE by the lawyer. LUCA MAORI ADVOCATE OF PERUGIA, ANDBy the lawyer. Giulia Bongiorno OF THE ROME, THESE.RG 10/10 RGNR 9066/07 - 30/07/2011 c / A. KNOX + 1
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PARTS AND CIVIL DEFENDERS:1. JOHN LESLIE KERCHER, ABSENT - AVV. FRANCESCO PAOLO MarescaADVOCATE OF FLORENCE, THIS.
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2. ARLINE MARY CAROL KERCHER, ABSENT - AVV. PAUL FRANCISMaresca ADVOCATE OF FLORENCE, THIS.3. JOHN ASHLEY KERCHER, ABSENT - AVV. FRANCESCO PAOLO MarescaADVOCATE OF FLORENCE, THIS.4. LYLE KERCHER, ABSENT - AVV. PAUL FRANCIS OF MarescaHOLE IN FLORENCE, THIS.5. STEPHANIE LARA ARLINE KERCHER, ABSENT - AVV. SERENA PERNAADVOCATE OF FLORENCE, THIS.6. DIYA LUMUMBA, THIS - AVV. CARLO PACELLI OF THE FORUMPERUGIA, THIS.7. Tattanelli Aldalia, ABSENT - AVV. JOY OF THE FORUM MAGNINIPERUGIA, THIS.
CUMULATIVE INDEXEXAMINATION OF EXPERTS
PROF. STEFANO CONTI AND CARLA PROF.SSA VecchiottiFrom p. 09 p. 182RG 10/10 RGNR 9066/07 - 30/07/2011 c / A. KNOX + 1
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This report is opened at 09:00.
The President has the minutes on the
This procedure is written in the shorthand form
integral given the delicacy and complexity of the facts
object of the process, in accordance with Article 134 and
following
Code of Criminal Procedure.
Constitution of the parties. (Omitted).
It is recognized that there are experts Professor Stefano
Conti and
of Professor Carla Vecchiotti appointed experts from
this Court by order made on 18 December 2010.
It is recognized also that we have the following
Consultants:
Knox defense, Professor Carlo Torre and Dr. Sara Gino;
Sollecito's defense, Professor and Professor Adriano
Tagliabracci
Valerio Onofri;
Prosecutor's Office, and Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni
Professor Giuseppe Novelli;
Kercher Family plaintiffs, Professor Francesca
Torricelli and Dr. Anna Lucia Nurini.
PRESIDENT - In accordance with the principle of publicity
and
orality of the hearing I intend to read a letter
I received, which I found at the end of the hearing
Monday, July 25, he sent me the
Head of the Department of Central Management
Crime of the Scientific Police Service that is Dr.
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Angeloni. I wrote Dr. Angeloni: "In the days
the past with reference to the procedural steps relating to
If given object - which of course is our
process - has also learned from open sources that
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Technical Report of the Board of Experts appointed by the
Your Lordships condemns the actions of Service
Scientific Police in the central office known as competence
National Directorate headed by the Central Anti-
State Police. In particular are moved
allegations sufficient to be considered in more parts
depleting
image and value of the institution Police
Scientific State Police pertaining to: a) procedures and
protocols adopted for the survey and at the
forensic genetics laboratories in charge of the Police
Scientific, b) quality of equipment,
equipment in use by the Scientific Police, c)
professional skills of the staff of the Police
Scientific. In order to step a) is that the
inspection of the forensic team is specialized activities
that may be used in each case for further
specific skills in the police force
Scientific, biological, chemical, physical, which originates
studies and the work of Professor Salvatore Ottolenghi
criminologist founder in 1903 of the Higher School of
Scientific Police, characterized by rules and practices
interdisciplinary adapted to secure places and things
pertaining to the
offense as stipulated by the Articles relating to Title IV
Book V of the Code of Criminal Procedure. All
professionals acquire the specialization of
video-fotosegnalatore, dattiloscopista Police
After attending a scientific theoretical and practical
course
of formation of the four-month taught by
selected, university professors, judges, lawyers,
directors and officers of the State Police in various roles,
ordinary technical scientific medical doctor, at the end of
which are planned and written and oral examination for the
formal
graduation. Periodically there are also
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organized training courses, refresher
also because of the interdisciplinary content
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Scientific and technological progress. The professionalism
further qualification of operators with constant
comparison with other institutions responsible for
matter: judicial authorities and other police forces,
Armed Forces, Civil Defence, Fire Brigade, as well as
with the national and international scientific community:
universities, institutes of study and research which are to
be
agreements of cooperation agreements and memorandums of
understanding
projects for joint study and advanced research. Staff
Italian Scientific Police is also specialized for
inspections in hostile environments and / or contaminated,
specialized CBRN risk, nuclear, bacteriological,
chemical, radioactive, as well as for work on sites affected
from natural and human disasters, DVI Group, Disaster
Victims
Identification, which provide specific protocols
International intervention. Each year the staff of
Scientific Police carried out an average of twenty-five
thousand
inspections and related repertazioni the crime scene
in various environmental contexts and criminals. Regarding
instead of laboratory procedures and protocols is
that the service of the Scientific Police has undertaken
since
2005, an activity aimed at creating a
system of quality management of its offices and
laboratories to obtain certification
And ISO9001/2000 accreditation ISOIEC17025. This has
resulted in a complex internal management system, based
of 252 regulatory documents, quality manuals
ISO9001/2008 and ISOIEC17025, management procedures,
procedures
technical, operating instructions, forms and documents
registration shall govern all activities of the offices and
laboratories of the service, subject to such other auditing
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annual internal performed by qualified consulting companies
external administration of the State Police. A
about April 2010, the Police Service
Science has been audited by the
ENFSI committees, the European Network of Forensic Science
Institutes, designed to test the progress
for the accreditation of laboratories with standard
ISOIEC17025
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biology successfully. Specifically, as
regards the findings made on laboratories, provided that
the Scientific Police Service since 2004 has a new
Based in Rome of about 16,000 square meters, built and
built according to modern standards and high model
technological structural, all areas devoted to the
investigation and examination of forensic genetics are made
compartmentalized spaces, with access controlled by
badge, limited to staff, all typed for
any exclusion in respect of service in
laboratories, compounds from a room filter prelogin,
so-called clean-area, a connective horizontal, which puts
in connection laboratories. The room filter, made
with two interlocking doors enabled by card,
has a water trap and drain and lockers
dirty-clean. The logistics of the service can rely on a
organize logistics which provides space for ad hoc phases
start operations, mining, preparation,
quantification, amplification, typing profile
DNA. - And here's a note that I think strictly technical
however, since you can jump and depositerò acts
these statements, the parties may leggersela in its
entirety - All laboratories then finally adopt a
dedicated computer system, called LIMS Laboratory
Information Management System, which allows the precise
traceability of the findings in all its phases, so-called
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chain of custody of the specimen, ie delivery, custody,
processing. In order to point b) all instruments and
equipment provided to the Scientific Police
comply with specific technical and avant-garde
requirements of certified quality, as a result of targeted
market research among the leading companies in the fields,
with
service contracts and maintenance and
extraordinary, as well as training for staff involved in
subject to regular monitoring. The use of the material in
supplied with the Scientific Police is governed by specific
requirements, including those relating to safety and
wholesomeness of
workplaces with provision of specific devices
individual and environmental protection, subject to audit
and
as by legislation. Finally, in relation to the point
c) in addition to the considerations already stated in point
a) is
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said that all the leaders of the workshops are
officials of the technical role that exceeded the
competition
public access to leadership roles of the Police
State, with a degree in biology, enrollment
Roll of biologists, publications in relevant journals
concerning the international scientific activity in
their career paths. Biologists Police
Scientific ENFSI are also within the network
subjected to annual testing and certification by the
Breakout German DNA Profiling Group. Same
because of the institutional activities carried out daily
at this service can boast an exceptional
years of experience, not often found in
similar public and private organizations, called upon to
perform
forensic investigations in via episodic, except for
the homologous structure of the Carabinieri. The rest
the large series examined concretely manifests itself in
diverse and complex scenarios murderous crime
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common, organized and subversive, that relate to
annually and only for the laboratory service of Rome
about 500 legal proceedings to which they relate thousands
of
findings and subsequent operations of trace analysis
biological. It should be noted that recently even in the
presence of
different opinions and scientific and technical compliance
those incurred by the Scientific Police have never
recorded in the past or in other contexts procedural
findings of a similar nature by the experts in the topic or
other authoritative professional academics.
On this occasion instead have been proposed
arguments that affect the basic principles pertaining to the
professionalism and efficiency of the operators of Police
Scientific. " Then there are the greetings and so on. This
is
allegheremo to the file of the trial with its
envelope. That said, the Court did not, we obviously
consulted, no questions to ask the experts so you have to
the next step. Here's the problem,
since the survey was placed in office, there would be
the problem of precedence in the examination, I would
in the notice to give priority to those in the grounds of
Appeal asked the expertise which we then prepared,
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However, we are open to any other solution here.
ATTORNEY GENERAL - The Attorney General does not oppose
follow the general rules.
THE PRESIDENT - That being said we introduce the experts and
we begin with
examination by the defense. You're welcome.
EXAMINATION OF EXPERTS - PROF. ACCOUNTS AND PROF VecchiottiDEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - at Sollecito's defense has not
been
questions to ask.
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DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - The defense of Amanda Knox asks a
question
relatively to those traces of starch that are reported
in the report, some of the tracks, as regards the
investigation
new made with a particular reagent, and then in
expertise are six or seven images of starch, there are
some particularly significant, I would ask Professor
Tower, if it is allowed to ask questions through consultants
as ...
THE PRESIDENT - No, the question is the defense, make the
defenders possibly at the urging ...
ATTORNEY GENERAL - President'm sorry, we were told by the
defenders that you could, if you want you could do, by
Our there is no opposition on this point.
PRESIDENT - I thought I possibly give then an end to
consultants for the filing of written notes, before the
next hearing which I think is perhaps more useful.
ATTORNEY GENERAL - Okay President.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - So the defense of Amanda Knox
poses to
experts the following question: pages 25 and following of
expertise in acts highlights some related images
analysis recently carried out on the blade of the knife and
on the handle of the knife, seven, show
traces of starch, vegetable, some small some
more apparent, especially those I refer, Professor
Vecchiotti and Professor Conti, to those on the handle of
knife. Now I can tell you also what is the track ...
CONTI S. - Excuse me impuntatura or handle?
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - H, you're right grip.
Vecchiotti C. - Yes the H point ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - I wanted to wait ... this is the
premise,
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we were prepared to do so after the cross-examination, this
is the
premise, then in relation to this type of analysis
carried on the knife, Exhibit 36, relative to the
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trace H on the handle of the knife, there are traces of
starch, vegetable. The first question is this: are
symptom thorough washing or not washing? The
permanence of traces of starch in the meantime may imply or
let think in terms of probability, the use
home then a potato, a corn, bread and stuff
gender? And if there still remains this track
quite evident suggests a cleaning, a
thorough washing of this knife or not? This is the first
question.
Vecchiotti C. - So, yes indeed we have found,
then we can go ahead because they have been
also found in other places, of course, always
handle instead there is a large amount in
point of contact of the blade with the handle, I think that
this is the one to which you refer, and that all
As we have just seen in the immediacy of the levy
and analysis. So, I have to say that this levy is
its been done in a very precise point or is
just have been a point approximately one inch wide
which as we have seen in previous slides
that had been projected, it seemed a little bit darker.
So we had gone there to try to see what kind
material could be because it is not that we went to
look specifically starch, you know that the problem
was a matter of cells or even blood, and we
found a large amount of material, both on
sample time from one side of the knife as
other. She wanted to know if it was ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - The traced it today?
Vecchiotti C. - The traced it today? Then the starch,
look we have done research because it is not
We are specialists in effect in this, then we say
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that we documented on what is starch, the starch
however, it is obvious ...
PRESIDENT - Excuse me doctor, I think I understand that the
question is essentially: the knife has been washed or not?
Well, this is the question I think.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - Having tracked down this track so
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particularly significant leaves, allows under
Profile ... it has been the subject of a thorough cleaning
or
if ...
Vecchiotti C. - No it was not the subject of a thorough
cleaning
because with the thorough cleaning would shy away
surely the starch in short, in the wash with water without
not even ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - I'm going, if I may ... President
PRESIDENT - Yes go ahead.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - ... sorry, the following question
and it
having traced these great absorbent capacity
starch, the question is, could contain profiles
genetics, blood, and something inside him?
Vecchiotti C. - Look, if they had been content we will
we highlighted, we highlighted when the DNA
we measured the DNA with PCR that is highly sensitive,
the starch would certainly not affected, the fact that the
PCR
was negative indicating that there was no DNA.
PRESIDENT - So no.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - Sull'amido ...
Vecchiotti C. - Then, the starch ... There was starch but
there were no
surely, surely there was no DNA ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - So he says ...
Vecchiotti C. - Why else would not, however,
covered, we have used a technique particularly
sensitive method that had been agreed ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - Now I get it.
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Vecchiotti C. - Please.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - For the starch, Mr. President and
Gentlemen
of the Court, we reserve the right permissions if
observations
the consulting side.
PRESIDENT - Yes.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - I wanted to ask two questions on
a fast
Another aspect: methods of assessment of DNA being
amplification, track B 36 knife, trace B that
most of which we speak, the amplification must be made
with a real-time or with a Qubit fluorometer and
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the difference between the two tools ...
Vecchiotti C. - Then she talks about not ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - ... laboratory for
quantification?
Vecchiotti C. - Yes Then she speaks of amplification, or
I assume it is referring to the quantification of DNA.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - Amplification, correct me.
Vecchiotti C. - Quantification.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - No no no, quantification.
Vecchiotti C. - Quantification, I seemed to have understood
amplification ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - Yes, because then the Real-
Time ...
Vecchiotti C. - So, let's say that the difference is
significant in
meaning that the Real-Time is in effect a PCR to all, a PCR
that has the ability to detect even the concentrations
very low DNA, or both the kit gives us a range that goes
23 picograms to 50 nanograms, picograms 23 am
lower limit that guarantees real-time while the
fluorometer can detect concentrations of 200
picograms so we are 23 picograms 200 picograms. Between
the other is the real-time specification for human DNA, for
Regarding instead the fluorimeter, so that the Qubit
We also use it when necessary, is not specific
in the sense that it can also go to detect DNA
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necessarily of human nature.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - On the topic ...
Vecchiotti C. - And then, sorry one last question, can I?
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - I apologize.
Vecchiotti C. - As regards the Real-Time in agreement with
all the consultants we have used a kit that had been
precisely designed to be used with that type of
equipment and which allowed to identify DNA
human in general and in particular Y. So human
more complete the Y, this can not happen with the
fluorometer.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - In that document in its
possession, in
its legitimate and total availability as expert witnesses,
have learned that this amplification was done with a
Qubit fluorometer and not with the Real-Time PCR?
PRESIDENT - This says in the report.
Vecchiotti C. - This means it says in the report, however,
if
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We also want to ...
PRESIDENT - Excuse me, do useful questions.
Vecchiotti C. - No I have to say the ... is written
precisely in
expertise, for I have found the documents that I
was provided by Dr. Stefanoni that provided
all reports of Real-Time in which it is seen that they are
been some samples, some infill made
Real-Time instead with the Qubit were analyzed
tracks A, B, C and is also reported with the scanner on
expertise, I could search for the page but I think it ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - The question of course it was, I
wanted to
synthesize it, it seemed important to us where the document
we learned ...
Vecchiotti C. - If you want I can find it.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - No no no, it's okay for us to
reply.
Vecchiotti C. - Anyway, page 56 regarding the
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fluorometer, the expertise of course.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - Thank you, for now I have no more
questions.
PRESIDENT - Please Lawyer Dalla Vedova.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - Defense Knox. Only one
question
Professor Vecchiotti, I am interested in his opinion, she
reported a previous very similar and I believe, however,
importantly, it refers to is the case of Omagh in Northern
Ireland
where on the basis of a low copy number was arrested a
person who was later exonerated because he had an alibi,
which
the case of the '98 British authorities, and here I was
interested in
know with the opinion of the ... Professor, as
reported the same, both in the writing skill then he
said on Monday, since that case, the British authorities
have
ordered the suspension of the use of low copy number
in the courts for about a year and a half and the equivalent
of our Attorney General, Crown prosecuter's
English Office has ordered an evaluation of the nominating
scientific and legal experts to approve protocols
that are mentioned here as a reference in the report to
those who are the international protocols. I ask
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also in consideration, the result was that have been
approved 21 recommendations, that this group of experts
at one point they made recommendations
specifications for the use of low copy number, I ask
saying the wrong things or is it right?
Vecchiotti C. - No, no, says the right things and it's
called Caddy
report ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Zaganelli - The Caddy report.
Vecchiotti C. - ... And is very well known, after which ...
please.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - So my question is very
specifies, in relation to what we see in the last
three years, and I refer to cases of Garlasco, the famous
bicycle and where there was a low copy number, the case of
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Grass, the case of Sarah Scazzi, the case of Yara Gambirasi,
the
two cases Italian historians that have gone on for years and
then were reopened, always on traces of DNA, that is,
Olgiata, dell'Olgiata the crime and the crime of Via Poma,
and the last recent Elisa Claps also there is no evidence of
DNA and the latest addition to Melania Rea also there is
everything
a finding of DNA, it is desirable, that is the question
Professor, that also in Italy in consideration of
wide use of this science within the activities
court, in Italy it is desirable that there is a
commission of this kind? Like the English?
Vecchiotti C. - Yes I have to say that it was discussed also
at the last meeting that we held in June, the
Italian society in which there was just one session
devoted to this problem by telling the whole world if
it takes, everyone gives their protocols, their
suggestions then we just be the case that
we also begin to work in a serious and
systematic about this issue. The problem of low copy
number is a very serious issue that unfortunately we
often enough, and you have to follow specific protocols,
But it is also equally clear that to do this every
laboratory should validate its own internal method. A
own internal method that should meet certain
requirements after which it may be, once it has been
validated and has surpassed what is the accreditation,
can be used, it is certainly desirable, but we already
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moved, the GEFI that she knows that it is the society of
geneticists
Forensic Italian, is already moving in this direction then
of course, also on the basis of all that is
the experience of the global scientific community.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - Thank you, I have no further
questions.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - If I telegraphed to complete
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this aspect, I had forgotten before. If you authorize me to
ask a question fast.
PRESIDENT - Dica.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - Thank you. If it is in their
possession whether in 2007,
period of laboratory testing at the Scientific
Rome later that we learned ... if in 2007, but not later
time of writing the genetic relationship of
Dr. Stefanoni then acts in June 2008, the
Scientific Rome was in possession of so-called
Permissions ISO9000, ISO10 and anything, whether it is in
their
knowledge.
Vecchiotti C. - I am not aware in the sense that I can
respond to what is my laboratory, which is
certificate, and then has the ISO9001 since 2006, and I have
here the
documentation to prove it. This certification is there
was then renewed, because you know that every year we
then obtain the release of this, the control by
Inspectors, I can not answer for the Police
Scientific whether he had or not but I seem to have read,
but here I could be wrong because I do not want to say
things without ... I think I read in the acts which the
2008 maybe was ongoing certification. For another I do not
know
when you have achieved accreditation also, I do not know
this,
certainly we had it in 2006, I do not know, you should do
the question directly all'interessata.
THE PRESIDENT - Thank you. So defenses have finished if I
understand
fine. Then prosecutor ...
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - President apologize to
understand
modalities of the examination, we place in the council
chamber
Page 14
Monday two problems, but it seems to me the first pass
I would like to verbalize because the director had
assumed, if I'm not mistaken, that the consultants could
ask direct questions to the experts, it seems to me that
this
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is not applicable today, I would record it anyway.
PRESIDENT - If we raised the question we retire and
decide in a formal way, if you do not agree, it was a
proposal.
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - No, no, since it had been a
the proposal of the Director therefore, is not required by
Code for which he was, perhaps verbalize ...
PRESIDENT - We have adhered to its own proposal
Instead Lawyer Maresca, who on this occasion she
In fact, to allow expert witnesses to deposit notes.
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - The second question or problem
that
I ask the Court is whether or not we feel the consultants,
as well as allow the filing of counseling.
THE PRESIDENT - Do not they would feel.
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - On this point, however,
President
wonder ...
ATTORNEY GENERAL - President excuse me ...
PRESIDENT - But we are willing to retire and decide the
question.
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - I ask myself the question, if
he wants to
I put it to him right away.
PRESIDENT - Yes, yes, so this will be rather solve.
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - President, I believe that
having
played expertise, the experts are present today, have
already made
clarification from the last hearing, as part of
conservation of respect for the defense, of course defense
Part of the accused and defense Civil, I believe that the
under Article 230 of the Criminal Procedure Code
consultants should be heard because, as is clear
from the same expertise that experts submitted and point
in particular pages 2, 3, 13, 25 cards, cards of 30
expertise which dutifully experts verbalize the
comments and requests from consultants
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Page 15
all parties, showing and demonstrating a
participation not only formal but actual, concrete
all consultants, as well as the Supreme Court tells us,
or is talking about forms of intervention consultants
part of the report, the consultants having evidently
expressed, however, their expressions and assessments
techniques, in my opinion, as well as advice deposit
written to be heard at least its points
that have been requested and discussed with the experts. In
I refer particularly to the tracks that are then not
were continued in the analysis, in particular a sample of
then I do not know where we will be allowed to communicate
with the
experts, where the experts consider not to continue, this is
one of the many issues under discussion, and vice versa,
where
opinion of my advisers, but I guess even the consultants
the Attorney General, it could and should proceed
thus showing an insuperable gap of this
expertise and above all, unmotivated a stop to this skill
which in my opinion is not brought to conclusion, but
remains
incomplete in some respects. These issues are absolutely
techniques of which we are discussing a number of years, on
which
I believe that, beyond the Distinguished Judges are judges,
the
Jurors they need and must be in need of
clarity. The clarity, beyond the operators of law
all present, only the experts can give it to him
technicians, in full compliance with the adversarial. I
believe that
there is a very serious injury if the consultants of all
parties, developing its own contradictory in form
that it may consider appropriate, to the limits obviously
that the
Court deems appropriate, they can not and are not felt at
clarification of their comments and so preparatory
to the filing of its advice. So, among other
examination that is developed in accordance with Article 501
of the
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19
Code of Criminal Procedure. So, forget it and do not
do matter in relation to the proposition of
questions in a direct way by the consultants, so
overcome this issue which had been proposed and on whose
Page 16
point nothing I observe, on the contrary I ask that the
Court
speak with their decision on whether the request
of this defense to hear the consultants on their
advice and comments on the demands and
reasoned assessments in relation to the appraisal filed.
Thank you.
PRESIDENT - Excuse me a moment Lawyer Maresca and Excuse
Attorney General ...
ATTORNEY GENERAL - Please.
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - I refer, President,
particularly the Supreme Court Judgment Section I, number
11867 ...
THE PRESIDENT - No Excuse, I wanted to ask you one thing,
she said
so as a prerequisite to filing, would it not be better
even the opposite? That is, before the report and then
hear them?
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - The mode of course President
do not let me indicate to the Court, I am interested that
the
advisers are felt to clarify one's own thinking
Scientific correctness and informative for duty
the case of all the Judges popular if not for those
stipendiary. Thank you.
ATTORNEY GENERAL - President, in support of the request I
I would like to point out two things only. A: There is a
principle of orality of the process that must be respected
in
all its forms, our process can not predict the
filing a memory if you do not give the Court the
possibility to directly take the statements of those who
This memory has done. In the specific case there are two
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20
precise rules of the Code of Criminal Procedure, Article 598
which refers to the process of appealing to all the rules of
proceedings at first instance and therefore Article 501
expressly provides for the summoning of engineering
consultants
trial. I would add that the Judgment which was
reference defender of Civil Party is a Judgment
challenged, as surely as the Court is aware, the possibility
for advisors to ask direct questions of the experts
office, the reason for the dispute in accordance with the
Supreme Court consisted in the fact that the consultants
Page 17
technicians are witnesses and should be heard as witnesses
for
which could not be allowed to witnesses to make
questions of other witnesses in this case are the experts
office. Are these the reasons why we sin
beginning we have always thought that there would be
hearings for the hearing of the expert and
these reasons, we reiterate our demands.
The other parts are associated with the contentions of Civil
Maresca Advocate and the Attorney General.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - Mr. President and Gentlemen of
the Court,
I believe that in reality if the Civil Party or the Public
Ministry had wanted to hear at this stage also
their advisers would have to request it, as we
the defense we made our demands than the
witnesses we wanted to hear when we
asked you the renewal hearing. We in our
notice of appeal, we asked a few texts, then we
waived, aware of the fact that here is
obviously an absolutely exceptional the
renewal of education hearing and orality. Us
of course we know that orality is a principle that is
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21
the best explanation in the first degree, in this second
able if someone requests one has to do in
time when you had to make an order, with the result that
in my opinion as well as the defense had asked for some
witnesses then, now is not that we require new
new witnesses or consultants, as was requested by the
the defense expert at that point the parties should have
say: "Where ammettiate experts ammettiate also
consultants "so that was the moment in which it would
had to ask for an extension of this phase also the
consultants. In my opinion at the time was not
In fact, now this part is completed, then it is clear that
the
possibility of this wide and there will be no objection
defense of deposit consulting, memories,
possibly to counter the conclusions, however,
At this point you can not fall into the error of enlarging
this phase of the renovation of proportion, it would have
be requested before, now this request to my
notice is late. Thank you.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - To defend Knox, heavily
stigmatized
Page 18
the request of verbalization content
conversations in the council chamber fixed to the sole
purpose
and calendar management utility of our time
available before the debate, the way it is
appalesato you but I want stigmatizzarla, strongly ...
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - I did not ask the minutes.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - Please Maresca, are you ... I
want to
stigmatizzarla, the rules cited by the counsel of Part
Civil, 230, and by the Attorney General, 598 and 501, there
allow to stand up with, say, the code in the hands of
Requests for a hearing consultants, allow the 501
part of deposit consulting peacefully and make
increasingly responsive to procedural economy elongation
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22
of time, the rules dictated in terms of expertise to
hearing, the provisions referred to in short, that the 598
you do in the first degree is done in the second, the 501
should be
mentioned, for more then just the standards indicated
private and public accusation make it completely sustainable
our opposition, colorful for that verbalization,
not good. I will say more, right at the end of the
compliance
contradictory, and this appeal proceedings escape all
problems of the nature of the appeal proceedings because the
heard there was wide and tight at 360 degrees, not
There is never a nullification of the instances of the
prosecutor
private and only if one considers the fact that their
consultants, of which you would like the hearing do not know
when,
were heard before the GUP lunghissimamente, that
hearing on October 4, 2008, May 22 and 23, etc., etc.
at the trial, even longer. That is what
I guess would be retold through this instance,
to which we strongly oppose, has been widely
treaty, said, written and visual means cd made by a
long activity during the prosecution of public and private
the trial of first instance. The heresies contained in that
cd projected, for me it would be only the still image with
dirty gloves, everything else belongs to a cd
Police ...
PROSECUTOR - Okay, 'but this is the discussion, however,
President.
Page 19
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - Please, please ...
Prosecutor - But President ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - President But what? Do not stop!
The novelty of this defense, which is the only one who has
not
lost a minute of the entire trial, in the so-called
Judicial Police ...
PRESIDENT - Okay 'but she is discussing though.
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23
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - No he's right, then ...
PRESIDENT - Let's stick to the topic.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - withdrawal ... the last part,
there is a
opposition net, I just wanted to say that.
PRESIDENT - Okay.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - They have widely debated, and
said
written. Excuse me President this last color but the
mood may be that today is not clear. The
Thank you.
PRESIDENT - Please Lawyer Dalla Vedova.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - I also think it is the late
request for examination because there was an order, there
was
a request, there was already a decision then I join
to comment on the Sollecito defense. I also say that we
stage of appeal, we have examined at length the problems,
remember that today we are looking at the cross-examination
experts on the two questions that were asked by the Court,
so it is not necessary to broaden the topic or perhaps as
nor again does anyone think you can go back on a decision
already taken. I say also that in particular, especially
in the position of Dr. Stefanoni, we already
trial we have made exceptions for her as
consultant today, I read a consultant from all parts of the
Prosecution was also a witness, she now also by virtue
the letter which she read at the opening of the hearing,
including
quotes, seems to be almost the accused that we are
discussing the professionalism, the ability of the
Police.
PRESIDENT - I think too much anyway, okay.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - I remember, I do it in the
street,
President agree that it can seem overwhelming, the
I am also being provocative because of what we read
Page 20
newspapers about the lack of independence, super
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24
partes, I read the articles, I've even read that there
were threats of legal action against
experts, in short, seems almost an activity ...
THE PRESIDENT - What comes out in the press do not care.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - So I say ... we do not care
however, I believe that this process has been a process of
printing, we at the forefront and I have the lawyer Ghirga
Articles and articles now, we should have done a slander
every day for years to defend Knox, then let me
do this ...
PRESIDENT - not here to defend himself against these attacks
she
allegedly libelous printing.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - No, but it is important to
understand the
also wonders why this examination of the consultants, it is
not
only a strictly procedural matter, the argument
has been debated and debate, the analysis was
shown, if there are memories but the memories we will see
I believe, however, that the topic has already been widely
debated in the first instance.
PRESIDENT - Lawyer Maori have something to say?
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. MAORI - Nothing thanks.
PROSECUTOR - President I clarify one thing? I wanted to
say this on the lateness, because on the lateness
Prosecution wanted to respond.
PRESIDENT - Yes please.
PROSECUTOR - In fact the need to feel
technical consultants obviously could not arise before
the Court acknowledge the expertise and subsequently
the admission of the expert's report and the appointment of
experts, as
the Court knows, the parties have appointed their own
advisors.
For us there is not only that Stefanoni was the technical
first instance because in the first instance was not a
consultant but was
the official in charge of the Scientific Police, but the
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25
Professor Novelli is an innovation from the point of view of
our
consultants part. The indication and the appointment of a
Page 21
consultant part and the subsequent presence in all
phases of operation, the order is placed, the
surveying operations and also this trial phase
examination of the experts, of course, the presence of the
consultants
equivalent, because witnesses may also be presented
in the classroom, of course, to request to be heard because
the appointment of consultants would be totally frustrated
if then
consultants could not fulfill their opinions
scientific expertise on not on what has happened in
first instance, but on what the experts have said and
concluded.
At this point, the Court of Assizes of Appeal reserves and
retreats into closed session to decide.
The Assize Court of Appeal returned to the classroom of the
hearing to
lifting of the reservation made before he decided to
issue the following
ORDERThe Assize Court of Appeal,
believes that it is permissible deposition of consultants
partly because in essence it is a proof to the contrary
the expertise and Article 468 of the Code of Procedure
Penalty, in these cases, allows to equal to bring
directly at the hearing also part of the consultants,
although
were not mentioned in the list;
then the Assize Court of Appeal admitted as witnesses
consultants part.
PRESIDENT - At this point, the hope is that there is a
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26
duplication in the sense of the first questions defenders
and
and then of course the prosecution on the same topics
depositions, so if you can, it's not what I mean
coerce the rights of the parties, but if you can
synchronize a little more time for questions.
That said, please Prosecutor.
PROSECUTOR - Thank you Chairman. I will not be short,
President and Gentlemen of the Court, because I intend to
deal with
obviously so party all aspects addressed
from the expertise and ask to be authorized by the President
also to ask questions rather than to one specific
another.
Page 22
PRESIDENT - Yes, yes, because they have divided up the
tasks.
PROSECUTOR - Exactly. So these, however, the first
are common to both, so who wants to start
answer answers, if you kindly refer to the experts
the Court what their specializations.
CONTI S. - I have two specializations, one in the forensic
insurance and a specialization in aviation medicine
spatial specialization in Master Disaster with specific
skills in identification procedures and protocols
investigations in the event of a mass disaster. Improvement
in biomedical signal analysis, data analysis and filtering
correction immage processing; improvement in computer
medical, analyst in structured programming flow;
university diploma microphotography; enablement
role as an investigator at the Inspectorate Security Aera
Air Force in the event of a plane crash;
investigator and consultant I point out that they are the
only
in Italy, as a coroner and medical to aerospace
the National Security Agency Flight with the ratio of
collaboration between the Section which I direct to
Aeromedicina
Forensic and National Security Agency Flight. Expert
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27
teaching regarding human error and uman
factor's, a professor in the topic of investigation for
ICAO international courses, Air Force, Navy
Military and hold a master's degree course
relating to the investigation. Investigative expert at the
Court of Rome as regards both the forensic
that the aerospace medicine. Excuse me, I forgot one
little thing, I have been trained for all the mandates that
I
were allow as Judge of the Court of expert
Surveillance and expert judge of Probate Court
Military.
Vecchiotti C. - I am a specialist in forensic medicine of
insurance, associate professor of forensic medicine,
Director of the Laboratory of Forensic Genetics Institute
of Forensic Medicine, University of Rome, La Sapienza;
I am the owner of the course teaching of forensic medicine
the sixth year of the Faculty of Medicine and Surgery of The
Wisdom, I also teach and coordinator of the period by
this one also coordinator of the school year instead
of orthopedic technicians always on my branch of medicine
Page 23
office in Latin America; are a professor of forensic
medicine in
numerous graduate schools, if you want them to him
carry, we have 32 pages, but I can always show them to him,
among other things, in many schools also teach genetics
forensics. I would like to remind that among these are a
professor of
Forensic hematology within the Master's level
science of safety at the School of
Police Commissioners for the State Police and teach in
a Master's degree in forensic science
lecturer in forensic as well as many other masters. I
dealt with numerous cases of national significance
and of course of normal things ...
PROSECUTOR - I say after this, thank you.
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28
Vecchiotti C. - Yes, I know who knows him.
PROSECUTOR - Let's start with academic says. It
specific publications on the subject in question
of course?
Vecchiotti C. - I am ... So look, I brought them here, the
tell you how many publications were made and how many of
these relate to forensic genetics. Then, I
published 109 articles in national and international
of which more than seventy are of forensic genetics and
lately I've also been accepted other jobs that do not
yet been published in the forensic field and collaborate
with the University of Oxford on the collaborative work and
I
also participated in collaborative exercises with the
Company
International Forensic Genetics of which I have also
certificates if necessary.
Prosecutor - And Professor Conti?
CONTI S. - I have about 50 publications, almost all of
these,
a certain part are related to the identification, between
the
we have some other things, a couple of publications, if well
I do not remember why I brought with me, even with the
Professor Vecchiotti about certain techniques
identification, because we have also cases of
rape then with resonance methods
magnetic.
PROSECUTOR - What do you mean by techniques
identification?
Page 24
CONTI S. - Identification ie in the sense that ... identify
certain subjects through because there have happened
certain situations when we were at the time, we were
called quite frequently by our company in
cases of rape and then inevitably unfortunately not
stop the booze with infill of seminal fluid
because the subjects practically used a condom.
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29
At this point we went to do some analysis well
more in-depth on the subject because then retraced
a condom but you could not tell if it was
belonged to the subject or not. And also through the
Ministry of Health have done with them,
collaboration with them and both the Department of Chemistry
of our University of experiments
identification of the apprehension of the liquid lubricant
and
aromas of condom use itself, because they are
different flavors of course, and this has allowed us here
then
to identify particular individuals. Among other things ...
PROSECUTOR - Excuse me if ...
CONTI S. - Excuse me, excuse me, I end up ...
PROSECUTOR - No Excuse, but I had asked
identification through DNA? Through ...
CONTI S. - No no, absolutely not.
PROSECUTOR - Here, I wanted to ...
CONTI S. - Excuse me, electron microscopy and resonance
Nuclear magnetic.
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but what? That is under the microscope
look?
CONTI S. - Under the microscope tracing liquid lubricant,
not
DNA.
PROSECUTOR - That is the oil of the condom.
CONTI S. - Yes and then eventually the contents of the ...
PROSECUTOR - It 'clear, a professor is clear.
CONTI S. - Okay, perfect.
PROSECUTOR - We are talking about DNA then ...
CONTI S. - Of course.
PROSECUTOR - Well, these are the titles, we were
now practical experience. Dr. many
inspections ...
THE PRESIDENT - No, no, for a moment, at this point we have
to discuss
RG 10/10 RGNR 9066/07 - 30/07/2011 c / A. KNOX + 1
Page 25
30
of expertise. I believe that we have adequately ...
PROSECUTOR - Academic qualifications we heard them yes.
THE PRESIDENT - That's so, then we can go in the report.
PROSECUTOR - No, I would first ask questions to
experts, if the Court will allow me but I think they are
relevant experience of the experts.
THE PRESIDENT - No, lets stick to the expertise at this
point ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - But ...
PRESIDENT - Lawyer Dalla Vedova aspects, let me finish. The
expertise, as we asked questions about qualifications
professional valuers, at this point is the skill, even
if it was the first report that they do this is that
we need to examine is the expertise, beyond, may
it wrong even with a hundred thousand qualifications
specific professional.
PROSECUTOR - Exactly. In fact.
PRESIDENT - So lets stick to the skill.
PROSECUTOR - Yeah, but that there was a place
detailed analysis of the survey carried out by the Police
Scientific obviously presupposes the examination, in my
humble
believe that those who analyze and judges have an experience
specific inspections so I think that it is a
question ...
PRESIDENT - Though not admit it to him the question, she
Keep to the survey.
PROSECUTOR - Okay. So let's talk about labs ...
not here before the recommendations, the recommendations of
which
teacher when she spoke back?
Vecchiotti C. - Intending recommendations for what, sorry?
PROSECUTOR - The recommendations of which he spoke to her,
the low copy number for example.
Vecchiotti C. - So ...
PRESIDENT - You understand the question Professor
Vecchiotti?
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31
Vecchiotti C. - Mah .. I do not think a lot, actually.
PRESIDENT - We have not understood perfectly Public
Ministry, what is it?
PROSECUTOR - The teacher reported that there are
international protocols that establish certain
procedures to properly analyze the low copy number
then the small traces of DNA. I would like to know what
Page 26
intended for international dating back to when the
recommendations of which he spoke, and then I wanted to do
that too
Other questions about this, for a short time.
PRESIDENT - Yes it was to understand, because we had not
understood
adequately the question.
Vecchiotti C. - Then, as had been requested before, the
question asked previously by the defense, we say that the
problem has begun to put the case of the attack
terrorist attack in Omagh, Northern Ireland, so we
let's talk about 1998, at the time it was established that
there was
been a conviction of a person on the ground
just low quantity of DNA, of course, was
convicted and then was acquitted on the other hand because
they were not
been properly implemented security measures
of collection, transport and handling of specimens for which
was declared not guilty.
PROSECUTOR - I understand, this in Ireland.
Vecchiotti C. - So, I'm talking about 1998, from that
then on we developed a, let's say you are
developed techniques that have tried at least to
overcome all those that are the issues related
identification of low content of DNA. Then
at first it was thought that you could talk about low copy
number below 100 picograms, then the threshold has been
raised to 200 picograms because it is seen that the samples
below 200 picograms gave, however, the effects and
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32
Paths not reliable and can not be reproduced. Then
each has also developed or at least tried to make
improvements therefore the methods that are proposed
are many and are still being studied so much
which, as is shown in the final part of my say
report of my expertise, for the truth in
publication of the Forensic Science International,
the editorial says: "The publications are very
many, many things in common, but they really do not
still manages to overcome, you can not overcome
certain problems then instead of continuing to write "
because then you say it was created a movement
contradictory between the different parties, it is also
said:
"Now we suspend, from this moment on, sending
Page 27
work on the low copy number and wait for something
safer "then the low copy number is still a problem
fully open even if there are lines ... not
guidelines are those that you say because the lines
guide are another thing, but they are experience, now
I will see that they are guidelines, but there are
world experiences that each international course
then applies as it gives you that which is your own
experience
even if everyone then on the other hand, there are low copy
number
then the things that are, on which everyone agrees.
And I pointed out the last time that we are, we must
pay attention to many things, from sampling, the
repertazione, by sampling from the laboratory, from the fact
to be able to examine those tracks in a laboratory where
obviously have been examined traces of other type, here
speaks, everyone is talking about or even suspected the
victim
of course ...
PROSECUTOR - President Excuse me, but I'd like to do
questions ...
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33
Vecchiotti C. - And then, ask questions.
PROSECUTOR - That I did specific questions, not that I
must repeat all the skill, I would like answers.
Vecchiotti C. - So, from one thousand nine hundred ...
THE PRESIDENT - No, if she believes, if it considers
sufficient
we move on to the next question.
Vecchiotti C. - So, since 1998, has created the problem
the low copy number that is still in progress. Finish.
PROSECUTOR - Even now in place, then there is a rule
universally recognized ...
Vecchiotti C. - Then ...
PROSECUTOR - ... so, a rule universally
recognized that indicates so universally recognized
mimicking the limit under which a biological trace not
can be analyzed, or at least it is better not
analyze it?
Vecchiotti C. - 200 picograms.
PROSECUTOR - 200 picograms is a rule universally
recognized.
Vecchiotti C. - Universally recognized. There's also those
who
speaks of 100 picograms.
Page 28
PROSECUTOR - Exactly, so it is not universally
recognized.
Vecchiotti C. - I mean ... then, at the beginning there was
talk
100 picograms but then the threshold was increased to 200
picograms because it is seen that 100 picograms ...
PROSECUTOR - Oh, but increased by whom? I wish that
indicate the sources ...
VECCCHIOTTI C. - Yes I say who? Certainly ...
PROSECUTOR - The sources and the date of these works.
Vecchiotti C. - So, the 100 picograms were
initially indicated by Gill in 2000, Gill 2001 Budowle
2009, following instead the definition of low copy
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34
number was considered less than 200 picograms which is
value greater then the amount associated
described by other authors, and the other authors who have
200 picograms are indicated Caddy, Taylor, Limcare,
Moretti Moretti in 2001 and in 2001 another job, these
the authors.
PROSECUTOR - Behold, these are the authors, and are
individual authors who have given their scientific opinion.
Vecchiotti C. - All authors have given a single opinion
scientific.
PROSECUTOR - So when you say ...
Vecchiotti C. - There are others.
PROSECUTOR - ... universally or internationally
recognized ...
Vecchiotti C. - So I would like to know what are the others
who
Instead they said that you can give ...
PROSECUTOR - No, she do not ask questions
Dr. ...
Vecchiotti C. - No I can not do, I'm doing me
same ...
THE PRESIDENT - No, it must at least understand the question
...
Vecchiotti C. - I'm doing myself the question,
all ...
CONTI S. - It 'a rhetorical question.
Vecchiotti C. - ... It's a rhetorical question - we want to
say? -
So everyone is talking about the threshold of 200, she is
also said to
100, are all acceptable, no drops below
that these are already the maximum limit to which it can
Page 29
working.
PROSECUTOR - None of those you mentioned.
Vecchiotti C. - I have them all those who are mentioned in
the
literature, I think, maybe something I can be
escaped ...
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35
PROSECUTOR - That is five then?
Vecchiotti C. - No look that she has asked me only these,
there
there are other pages, you want me to read the rest? I
I read all of them to him.
PROSECUTOR - No tell me the number of the authors.
Vecchiotti C. - Yes, of course then look at it, continue
with ...
PROSECUTOR - Excuse me, then watch the change, I change the
part of the question ...
Voices in the background.Vecchiotti C. - No Excuse, if I want the names I read them
to him
all, at this point read them to him ...
PRESIDENT - One moment, otherwise it ends up that we do not
understand anything.
Vecchiotti C. - There is no problem.
PROSECUTOR - Let us first say if there are voices
then divided.
THE PRESIDENT - That's it. But let's leave them time to
respond,
do the questions and short ...
Vecchiotti C. - No, then the other items ... then all those
I agree we again Caddy, Caddy Report
page 80, then we Gill, Whitaker, Kloosterman, Budowle,
Strom, Rechitsky, I read them all, Gaines, Leclair,
Hanson, Ballantyne, Budowle, Budowle again, Smith,
Ballantyne, Foster ...
PRESIDENT - It's okay, however there just because ...
Vecchiotti C. - No, we have written all those who speak of
this.
PRESIDENT - are contained in the written report, okay.
Vecchiotti C. - We want to indicate Buttler? We also show
Buttler ...
PRESIDENT - Okay, we just, we just Dr. ...
Vecchiotti C. - I do not know enough? I do not know, tell
me. If you want them
all I read is indifferent to me.
PROSECUTOR - Well 'but I think they are legitimate questions
Page 30
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36
President, if you are not legitimate, I was already on the
inspection
said it was unacceptable ...
THE PRESIDENT - No, no, but they are legitimate ...
Vecchiotti C. - And I answer.
PRESIDENT - ... has listed a whole series of names, I think
there may be enough.
PROSECUTOR - The answer is, well, a bit 'annoyed
I do not understand why.
Vecchiotti C. - No I'm not at all ... I'm reading Lawyer,
tell me what ...
PROSECUTOR - Lawyer?
CONTI S. - It is Lawyer, is the Attorney General.
Voices in the background and overlapping.Vecchiotti C. - Excuse me, excuse me, but is not ... is not
offensive
Doctor.
PRESIDENT - I do not really argue with each other.
Vecchiotti C. - No, I was absolutely offensive.
PROSECUTOR - Look, her during her oral presentation
However, continuing in this speech, in his exposition
Oral, if I remember correctly, he spoke of kit used
therefore the amount of DNA also in relation to, that
there would be in essence a precise amount indicated in
absolute sense to have a good result, a good profile
DNA and that the good result also depends on the kit
used and the machinery used. Is this correct?
Vecchiotti C. - You mean I have spoken of the limits of
kit? Well 'the kit that was used, we make an example
Specifically, the Identifiler about a limit of 500 picograms
and 1.25 nanograms, if that's what you wanted to know
Lawyer ... Doctor. 500 picograms the Identifiler, I speak
the kit, she asked me explicitly kit ...
PRESIDENT - If I understand you spoke also of adequate
machinery,
the Public Prosecutor, or not?
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37
Vecchiotti C. - No, the machine suitable for PCR do not,
I figured a kit, the kit ranging from 500 picograms ie 0.5
nanograms to 1.25 nanograms regarding
the Identifiler, as regards the Y is 0.5 to 1 nanogram.
PROSECUTOR - No, that was not the question.
Vecchiotti C. - And then I did not understand, Lawyer.
PROSECUTOR - According to her ...
Page 31
Vecchiotti C. - Lawyer ... not offensive.
Prosecutor - Prosecutor.
Vecchiotti C. - Prosecutor yes, you're right.
PROSECUTOR - According to her, to get a good profile
Just follow those directions or quantitative
regardless of the quantitative indication of the
result may be different depending on the kit used and
depending on the machine used? Machine
used mean state of maintenance, the
wear condition, the state of cleanliness and so the
machinery used.
Vecchiotti C. - The machine used I guess ... then
I use the Abiprism 310 which I believe is used in
Similarly, if it is not 310 ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but ...
Vecchiotti C. - Yes tell me, what is it that vu ...
PROSECUTOR - No, but answer me ... and not because ...
Vecchiotti C. - I do not understand ...
PROSECUTOR - I did not ask ...
Vecchiotti C. - I just can not understand the question, what
does that mean?
PROSECUTOR - Sorry I have not ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - President ...
PROSECUTOR - So ...
Vecchiotti C. - But what does it mean?
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - ... whenever that is answered
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38
locked, every time.
PROSECUTOR - but if I understand ...
PRESIDENT - Let her answer.
PROSECUTOR - but I figured if I ask what time it is and I
responds that it's raining ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - It should be ', then in the
indictment ...
Vecchiotti C. - I did not understand.
PRESIDENT - Please, please.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - At the time of the indictment
will comment on ...
Vecchiotti C. - I did not understand what he wants.
PRESIDENT - Please, so we will not get anything, the
Dr. Vecchiotti was responding let's leave the space
to answer. Tell me tell doctor. She uses this
machinery ...
Vecchiotti C. - So, if I use the kit, use the
material in those conditions I will get a result
probably good, acceptable and repeatable.
Page 32
THE PRESIDENT - That's but the prosecutor ...
Vecchiotti C. - Reliable and repeatable.
PRESIDENT - But the prosecutor, as I understand it, has
asked this: a different machine, a different kit
etc. could get the effect differs in the sense
that this low copy number could ...
Vecchiotti C. - No, no, we're not talking here of low copy
number.
PRESIDENT - ... be enough ...
Vecchiotti C. - No I'm sorry, I can ...
PRESIDENT - ... with another machine and another kit?
Vecchiotti C. - No I would like to do, then I would have
this
clarification, you talked about the kit, spoke of
quantity, I've said that the minimum quantity
indicated in the kit is 0.5 to 500 picograms then, if I
this material even though I put it in a 500 picograms
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39
apparatus and then the same amplified or riamplifico and
I put it in another machine will give me the same result.
THE PRESIDENT - That's so ...
Vecchiotti C. - But we're talking about a good quality DNA
and
of which is within the range that is recommended by the kit.
PROSECUTOR - She said she has used for the
quantification which machine did you use?
Vecchiotti C. - I for ...
PRESIDENT - Yes.
Vecchiotti C. - The Real-Time.
PROSECUTOR - It always uses the Real-Time or uses
also the fluorometer?
CONTI S. - (Off microphone).
Vecchiotti C. - I use the Real-Time, and I also bought the
fluorometer but I realized that the fluorometer is not
at all like the real-time so I used and in this
the time I left, not right now, I have already
abandoned for some because it is not specific.
PROSECUTOR - You rightly said that Dr.
Stefanoni has indicated, erring, indicated in its
report ever having used the Real-Time for the
quantification, weighing in short, the DNA that was then ...
Vecchiotti C. - To measure.
PROSECUTOR - ... amplify, whereas for some
samples used the fluorometer.
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
PROSECUTOR - Data on the use of
Page 33
fluorometer were already present in the records of the
trial?
Vecchiotti C. - They were already ...?
PROSECUTOR - The documents ...
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
PROSECUTOR - were present.
Vecchiotti C. - I have taken them from there.
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PROSECUTOR - That knows when Dr. Stefanoni
filed documents that revealed that
for exactly 54 tracks had used the fluorometer?
On the 460 analyzed.
Vecchiotti C. - No I do not know, I only get this card that
I noted on page 56, which I assume has been submitted
July 30, 2009, I have only this one, in which there are
shown Exhibit 36, Exhibit 35 and Exhibit 36 maybe sooner
with the track number ...
PROSECUTOR - That would be the knife.
Vecchiotti C. - Only this I do not know the others, I do not
know if
were made also with the other fluorimeter.
PROSECUTOR - You asked during operations
expert, during the acquisition of the documentation
Dr. Stefanoni why he had used the
fluorometer for the knife? Why then the hook
instead used the Real-Time.
Vecchiotti C. - She told me she spontaneously told me
that was not working the Real-Time at that time and
then had to use the fluorometer.
Prosecutor - And why not reported in survey
this particular?
CONTI S. - Why is not the file.
Vecchiotti C. - I have not considered essential.
CONTI S. - It is not on record.
Vecchiotti C. - It was a fact that he used the
fluorometer.
PROSECUTOR - Yes, it gave prominence to the fact that he had
the fluorometer used, could also give relief to
why he had not used.
Vecchiotti C. - It was not part of the question.
PROSECUTOR - Oh, was not part of the question.
CONTI S. - It could also bring Dr. Stefanoni,
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41
on the other hand.
Vecchiotti C. - On the other hand even the doctor has
Page 34
reported in his report, so she did it to me, I'll have
said so.
PROSECUTOR - No, she just has, as they say, has failed
right, wrong ...
Vecchiotti C. - The doctor to write it? Yes.
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'we do not questions and considerations.
PROSECUTOR - Yes You said that the fluorometer is not
specific for human blood.
Vecchiotti C. - For human DNA.
PROSECUTOR - For human DNA.
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
PROSECUTOR - fluorimeter which serves to quantify,
then the stage prior to amplification.
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
Prosecutor - But if I with the fluorometer quantifies DNA
amplification of cow then I realize that it was cow
or not?
Vecchiotti C. - He realizes yes because when you use the
kits, the kits that are used are specific for DNA
human.
PROSECUTOR - Exactly, so the fact that the fluorometer
was not specific for human DNA say it does not affect the
validity of subsequent stages, right?
Vecchiotti C. - We say no.
PROSECUTOR - No let's say, if you think that would affect
the
explain why.
Vecchiotti C. - No, my criticism or at least my
observation was not on another, and that could spoil or
less, I have talked to too low and ...
PROSECUTOR - No, but we get there after, doctor, for
degrees.
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42
Vecchiotti C. - Okay, 'Perfect, let us come at us come.
You're welcome.
PROSECUTOR - So in the meantime let's focus on
devices used, Dr. Stefanoni used
for the knife because he had a fluorometer
available at that precise moment in which the Real-Time
however, the Scientific has, then I say this aspect
dented, may affect the later stages of the analysis?
Vecchiotti C. - That is, she asked me if it was more blood
probably if you would be amplified or not, I have already
put and I said if it was not human blood not
would be amplified.
PROSECUTOR - He would not amplified, so we
Page 35
agree in saying that whenever there is amplification
means that there is human blood.
Vecchiotti C. - No, it means that there is not blood DNA.
PROSECUTOR - DNA apologize.
Vecchiotti C. - No Excuse since she speaks of blood ...
PROSECUTOR - No I'm sorry.
Vecchiotti C. - ... Then I also say blood but the blood is
not
there.
PROSECUTOR - That's right, absolutely right I
I wrong following his term, say. Then DNA,
because the DNA can be both, we, the human DNA is
present in the blood, then? In all the blood? Let's say in
all the components of blood?
Vecchiotti C. - No, in all those nucleated and in all other
parts of the body that have the nucleus.
PROSECUTOR - That?
Vecchiotti C. - Unless we are going to look for another type
of the mitochondrial DNA that is located in the cytoplasm,
but in this case we are talking about nuclear power.
PROSECUTOR - The Nuclear power is in short to understand
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43
to all the uninitiated, the DNA in the blood as part of the
blood is it?
Vecchiotti C. - In the leukocytes.
PROSECUTOR - Then the white blood cells, red blood cells
those that are more stain say, those who do
color were not true?
Vecchiotti C. - No, because they are nucleated.
PROSECUTOR - There is no DNA. Look, she visited the
forensic laboratory?
Vecchiotti C. - I know them, yes, because I got to
attend several times as we have been
party consultant, Dr. Stefanoni know how
I know other things, I had the opportunity to attend them.
Prosecutor - And do you think the structure, ie the want
a bit 'describe the structure of the laboratory of
Scientific?
Vecchiotti C. - So ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - President's opposition on this
question, is not part of the report, there is nothing
written
about the lab where it took place.
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'you might as well do ... no, you can do
it,
Page 36
you can do it, let's see where it ends up, if it is just
this
question, or if it starts a trend then we'll see, but in the
meantime
facciamogliela this answer, the end of the day the expert
can also make a judgment about the level of quality of
the ...
Vecchiotti C. - No, I do not know, have never been
introduced
in their labs, I have always been exhibited at the
analysis, but the results are never entered into their
laboratories, contrary to what happened in other
institutions.
Prosecutor - And he asked in the performance
the expertise of visiting the laboratory to check for
example ..
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44
Vecchiotti C. - No.
PROSECUTOR - Why?
Vecchiotti C. - Why do I have based on the acts and what
presented, my thing was to ascertain how he had
conducted the analysis and had the proper documentation.
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but you spoke of, for example,
cleaning, of the need to change depending on the laboratory
analyzes that were carried out, so maybe the
logistics ...
PRESIDENT - But he did not say that in this case did not
changed or have not done ...
PROSECUTOR - Ah did not say? To me it seemed so.
Vecchiotti C. - I do not think.
PRESIDENT - In the laboratory, huh.
PROSECUTOR - No, no, in the laboratory, it seemed to me so.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - Where are the questions?
PROSECUTOR - He asked what are the ... knows or
asked what are the standard procedures for cleaning,
reset of the laboratories of the Scientific Police in
course of the analysis in question?
Vecchiotti C. - No I have not asked.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - President,'s new opposition
on this because I want to remind you that the experts
answered the questions, the question does not speak of the
structure
the laboratory where they were executed, the question was
precise ...
PROSECUTOR - Do not even speak of the inspections.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - President ...
Page 37
THE PRESIDENT - No Public Ministry, let him finish.
Prosecutor - Do not even speak of inspections.
PRESIDENT - Actually ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - "If you can not ..." I read
the
second question ...
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45
PROSECUTOR - The Court will know the question I guess.
PRESIDENT - Yes we know it, Lawyer Dalla Vedova.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - Yes, but we are talking about
"on the basis of
acts "then there is no reference to the place.
PRESIDENT - In fact, the prosecutor is trying to
clarify whether or not there are complaints about the levels
of
cleaning and compliance with the recommendations under the
laboratory, in the laboratory as I understand it. But
I think it is not in this discussion because they do not
know
nothing, I believe, the experts ...
Voices in the background.PRESIDENT - Go ahead, go ahead.
PROSECUTOR - I beg your pardon President, but at some
point to the experts, if I remember correctly, now I do not
find the
page, but if I remember correctly argued that the
Stefanoni has not stated that he put the gloves,
she put on the mask, hat, suit, having
clean the countertop ...
PRESIDENT - Yes yes, not stated.
PROSECUTOR - Well, then I think that is ...
PRESIDENT - You probably will not get it because it will be
clear
deemed unnecessary, I do not know. It is also to interpret
a little 'what is written is not it?
PROSECUTOR - What is written in the report of
Stefanoni.
PRESIDENT - Yes, yes, yes.
PROSECUTOR - Here's what I would now like to interpret,
We have experts in front of ...
PRESIDENT - Okay, ask the question.
PROSECUTOR - ... why did these clarifications
not having personally inspected which were and are the
standard procedures used by the Scientific Police.
Vecchiotti C. - I based on all the documentation that
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Page 38
46
was before the Court, the question was to examine everything
was in the file and then give an opinion, and there was
written all over it.
PROSECUTOR - Well, then the fact that there is no
wrote she believes that it is indicative of the fact that it
is not
occurred, or believes that a standard procedure should not
be continually repeated, expressly stated
In short?
Vecchiotti C. - You may not be ... could be a
standard procedure that has not been repeated.
PROSECUTOR - What was not? That was not written
or?
Vecchiotti C. - That was not written, I can not rule it out.
I'm wondering if there is written and I say: "There is no
wrote, "if he asks me a personal opinion ...
PROSECUTOR - No no one had asked if there was
written or not, the question is not ...
Vecchiotti C. - Oh no? It's okay.
PROSECUTOR - No, the question was not written. But the
explain why ...
Vecchiotti C. - And then you would have to write it.
PROSECUTOR - No, the question that the Court has given
the ...
PRESIDENT - The question was very general prosecutor.
PROSECUTOR - Exactly, on the contamination.
PRESIDENT - He understood the contamination.
PROSECUTOR - Fine ...
PRESIDENT - Now, experts have pointed out that Dr.
Stefanoni had not told all the time "I changed the cap,
gloves, shoes "and so on.
PROSECUTOR - Here's my question ...
PRESIDENT - Now said, if I understood correctly but rather
will be
the same Dr. Stefanoni to correct me ...
PROSECUTOR - Dr. Vecchiotti.
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47
PRESIDENT - Excuse me, Dr. Vecchiotti, if I understand
correctly
she believes that it may have been a standard procedure
it was useless to repeat each time, say ...
PROSECUTOR - President'm sorry, I certainly do not
I want to ...
THE PRESIDENT - No, no, yes, it will interpret the doctor
Vecchiotti to correct me ...
Page 39
PROSECUTOR - ... contradict the President, I read it ...
PRESIDENT - ... if you did not want to say this.
PROSECUTOR - I read it, it's on page 51: "It is not
indicated
explicitly in the counseling if the environment where they
were
carried out the sampling, in particular the surfaces of the
workbench as well as all the equipment,
had previously been decontaminated by the use of
suitable substances such as sodium hypochlorite or
substances
like, if it was used instrumentation
sterilized and methods of sterilization thereof.
With regard to the samples on the finding is not specified
if
the same has been performed using sterile swabs, with
exchange of gloves for every single sample with use of
gowns and mask from the operators. " Then the
I ask this rather striking to recall that in
relationship is not explicitly mentioned the use of these
procedures, for what purpose he indicated? Believes that it
is more
likely that Stefanoni did not follow the procedure that is
not
then transcribed or is more likely the opposite, that
did not write it because it always does, is say a
standard procedure ...
CONTI S. - We have no elements in order to ... we do not
have
elements to be able to say neither one nor the other.
Vecchiotti C. - So we do not have, on the basis of acts not
We have elements to establish, to favor one or
for the other cases, the only thing we know is that there is
no
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48
written. That's the thing. Keep in mind that when we
we started surveying operations we have done
all these operations that you are telling me now, of
decontamination, everything, masks, what
wants, and to make them understand how important it is in
fact
this passage I'd like to report what he pointed out,
on March 23, ...
Prosecutor - But why I answered at random?
Vecchiotti C. - Can I continue?
PROSECUTOR - What is important is peaceful, it's like saying
Page 40
that the surgeon enters the operating room without
gloves ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - Excuse me President, we can
end up
the answers, because I really do not ever end up the
answers.
PROSECUTOR - That is, it is clear that it is important but I
do not
I asked this ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - The always interrupts, the
interrupts
always.
PRESIDENT - if you think that Stefanoni ...
Vecchiotti C. - She asked me if it is more likely ...
PROSECUTOR - ... normally do not do.
PRESIDENT - But for a moment, sorry, the question was only
whether
believes that it is probable that he did or not, she has
said it has no evidence to say yes or no then the
ended question here, the answer say it had to end here.
PROSECUTOR - Let's ...
PRESIDENT - This was a for ... more
PROSECUTOR - ... an example to make it clear to
Judges popular ...
PRESIDENT - ... if you want you can tell and wisdom ...
PROSECUTOR - ... in the register of surgeons operating
surgeons usually specify that they have washed their
hands, they put the black mask ... green, overall
green, the green skull cap and latex gloves before
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49
entering the operating room?
Vecchiotti C. - I do not know the procedure in the operating
room.
PROSECUTOR - It 'doctor, I ... I have seen many of ...
Vecchiotti C. - I am not a surgeon. She has seen many
and was present?
PRESIDENT - Let's go on with the questions.
Prosecutor - And well, 'but it does the coroner though.
Vecchiotti C. - And it was this? It seems to me absurd.
PRESIDENT - Let's go on with the questions.
PROSECUTOR - He never analyzed then registers
operators in his profession of coroner?
PRESIDENT - Public Ministry has nothing to do with the
expertise the operating room.
Vecchiotti C. - I can not understand.
PRESIDENT - Let's go on with the questions.
Page 41
CONTI S. - On the other hand in the operating room, there is
a
responsible professional contamination.
PROSECUTOR - The results of the laboratory if the
Science has dedicated inputs?
Vecchiotti C. - Ha, what?
PRESIDENT - I'm sorry, I did not understand.
PROSECUTOR - Inputs dedicated and specific to each stage
machining.
Vecchiotti C. - To me, I do not know why as I repeat every
Once I was at the Scientific are not entered in the
laboratories and in any case we need to see if this thing
was or
less than in 2007.
PROSECUTOR - asked it to him?
Vecchiotti C. - Do not de ...
PROSECUTOR - That has made investigations in this direction
for
determine whether there were or not?
Vecchiotti C. - So, when we talked about when we
talked to told me that had not yet been certified,
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50
now I am also going to look at but I would ...
Prosecutor - But certified by that point of view? The
rooms dedicated, I mean, you know when you have ...
Vecchiotti C. - But the rooms are certified, the rooms there
a rule that knows very well and that it is the ISO9001
clearly specifies that the rooms should be separated,
There is just an ad hoc law that says so. Now, we who
had already certified in 2006, we have prepared
everything there was to do, they do not know if in 2007
I do not know how they had if they had certification
which establishes and confirms that you work with the system
quality which is what I will tell you how they should be
broken down the different rooms. Now I have gone to
look ... But I do not know if I have to, if I can continue.
PROSECUTOR - Actually there are the minutes of the
hearing ...
PRESIDENT - If you just ...
Vecchiotti C. - No, because ...
PRESIDENT - Judge for yourself.
Vecchiotti C. - But no, I ... I went sull'ENFSI,
since before I was given another question, I do not know if
I can tell or not, but about the fact it was known
the fact that, if I knew that at that time there was
Page 42
certification or not, and on this site we talk about
accreditation
since 2009 on the basis of ISO9000. So I think there is
I guess a formal error of this definition is that of
Internet, I also took one of Racis that is different and
there
aware of it ... however, does not enter into this process,
however, is
different, then I guess the ISO9000 called
ISO9001 and ISO9000 and ISO9001 it was before 2000 when
we got us, now and then there has been a revision
in 2008 and is called 9001:2008 which has been, which is the
name later. Now, instead accreditation
derived from something else, which is entirely derived from
17025
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51
thing for which I assume here that there is an error and
that
nell'ISO9001 accreditation but it is not so certified
I presume, however, there is the doctor who can confirm
there,
that the certification was acquired in 2009.
Nell'ISO9001 that is a system of management of quality,
there is
that is specified in a precise manner as shall be
divided rooms and laboratories, all you need to
do, so anything we had done before us, I do not
know if they were angry or not, we had it but we also
look that is not the same thing and do it out of habit
do so in accordance with the certification, because, as Dr.
well certainly knows why he did it is something much more,
something much more technical and much more complex to
achieve. Now she tells me if I am aware that there
whether or not, with, if they have as I have in 2009
had the certification will be, I guess huh, it is my
hypothesis,
made according to standard ISO 9001.
PROSECUTOR - Okay. Now let's talk a moment of
investigations ... Satisfied that they had, sorry again
any questions about the workshops, or rather the question
is: what
is the exhaust hood in a laboratory?
Vecchiotti C. - The exhaust hood is a tool that
is used to suck up all the material that we
We are enlivening while we work at this point ...
please.
Page 43
PROSECUTOR - at this point?
Vecchiotti C. - No continuation later, I ask the question.
PROSECUTOR - It 's expected to be present for this hood
say in complete safety analysis of the tracks?
Vecchiotti C. - It must be used wherever possible.
PROSECUTOR - Where can this mean?
Vecchiotti C. - If it was available in that particular
time, otherwise you do not use.
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52
PROSECUTOR - Or you do not use, but it is better to use it
or
better not to use it?
Vecchiotti C. - Of course it is best to use it.
PROSECUTOR - The cabinet wants to explain to the Court that
What is the hood? Because I've seen in a photograph,
probably especially the Judges popular ...
Vecchiotti C. - It 'a hood that has a filter with which you
on, you work inside the hood and are
sucked, I do not know, fumes, depending on what we
use, are sucked and are removed. So ...
Prosecutor - But there is an entry in this hood?
Vecchiotti C. - You mean with your hands?
PROSECUTOR - Exactly.
Vecchiotti C. - Yes, we do have other ...
PROSECUTOR - So descriviamola best, it is a
window, a kind of window ...
Vecchiotti C. - We have, we have it for another type,
or is not the one where you shove your hands but has
of branches that cascade down and below it operates.
PROSECUTOR - So you enter only with their hands in a
protected environment then this hood that sucks the
contaminants or other disturbing elements
right?
Vecchiotti C. - Yes, of course.
PROSECUTOR - You have it, in his laboratory there she
has it?
Vecchiotti C. - In the workshop I do.
Prosecutor - And he also used for these analyzes?
Vecchiotti C. - I have not used.
Prosecutor - And why did not it used? He has not used,
the hood?
Vecchiotti C. - I have not used because we were all
perfectly covered, we only got the levies,
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53
we made withdrawals and I must say that there was a
Page 44
specific reason to use it.
PROSECUTOR - Do you know if Stefanoni used instead
always the hood in the course of ...
Vecchiotti C. - I do not know why it is not written on his
counseling.
Prosecutor - But asked him if he used it or not?
Vecchiotti C. - No.
PROSECUTOR - Why has not asked for any procedure
standard, say, what is the procedure used, right?
Vecchiotti C. - No, I did not ask because when she
used something other than the type fluorometer told me
safely.
PROSECUTOR - All right. So, we come to your
investigations: we want to explain what is the analysis
cytologic?
Vecchiotti C. - The cytological analysis, or is going to
search for the presence of cells, if present, on a
given substrate.
PROSECUTOR - what kind of cells?
Vecchiotti C. - We went out looking for cell
flaking because there had been explicitly requested
by different consultants, because reference was made in the
counseling prior to the alleged cell exfoliation,
then we went to pick up a small part, to color
and see if there were any of the cellular elements.
PROSECUTOR - In which of the two exhibits, hooks or
knife?
Vecchiotti C. - On all.
PROSECUTOR - cells flaking even on
knife?
Vecchiotti C. - We have tried cell exfoliation, yes
is written in the report, even on the knife,
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54
the handle on the blade and on the hooks, hooks that
as you have seen before, however, were unusable.
PROSECUTOR - Unusable because it rusted.
Vecchiotti C. - Fully, as the chain does not provide
custody of course.
Prosecutor - And then explain to us what the expected
chain of custody and how they could avoid
rusting the hooks.
Vecchiotti C. - Simply, for example, not leaving them in the
extraction buffer as it has been done, it was necessary
let it dry and then ask them. Put them in the paper and
close them.
PROSECUTOR - It would not rusted.
Page 45
Vecchiotti C. - No of course not, it's experience ... Lawyer
Prosecutor, excuse me.
PROSECUTOR - The cytological analysis means analyzing the
microscope right?
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
PROSECUTOR - So it is not a chemical, it is
visual analysis.
Vecchiotti C. - We used hematoxylin that could
highlight the presence of nuclei or fragments of nucleus
the endoplasmic reticulum.
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but I say it is a visual analysis.
Vecchiotti C. - Yes, of course.
PROSECUTOR - It is only to see the cells.
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
PROSECUTOR - It 'individualizing?
Vecchiotti C. - What do you mean sorry?
PROSECUTOR - In the sense that if you see the cells, for
example, flaking can figure out who I am?
Vecchiotti C. - Who are they? Certainly not.
PROSECUTOR - She felt that there were granules
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55
starch, right? He spoke of starch granules.
Vecchiotti C. - I have not considered it, we've seen them
all and they are
were screened.
PROSECUTOR - No, I saw them from the point of view
morphology.
Vecchiotti C. - Certainly.
Prosecutor - But from the point of view instead of
composition made specific analysis?
Vecchiotti C. - No, we compared with the data in
literature.
PROSECUTOR - So you did not ...
Vecchiotti C. - If we want them, we can review them.
PROSECUTOR - If I ask him to do it. So it does not
that the reaction of Iodine?
Vecchiotti C. - No.
PROSECUTOR - What is the reaction of iodine solution?
Vecchiotti C. - I have not done because I do not do the
histologist.
PROSECUTOR - Okay 'but because ...
Vecchiotti C. - Reaction of Iodine, Lugol I know that goes
to color
starch.
PROSECUTOR - So it is a chemical test for specific
starch.
Page 46
Vecchiotti C. - It 'a specific chemical test for starch yes.
PROSECUTOR - Did you?
Vecchiotti C. - No.
PROSECUTOR - So we can say that based on its
experience she stated that it was granules
starch?
Vecchiotti C. - Then we say that we this type of
investigation
we performed at the Institute of Histology and
Embryology, with the approval of the course
President, people are highly qualified. We have
observed under the microscope and found that all consultants
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56
have seen all of them have been said, we said
all this is starch. This is so, but this ... the
Dr. Stefanoni was present, while it was not
this ...
THE PRESIDENT - Do not polemizzi not polemizzi.
Vecchiotti C. - ... Is on record, whereas this was not the
Professor Novelli, there were other consultants and was
also made one thing was made immediately a picture,
was downloaded from the Internet a design that ...
CONTI S. - A image.
Vecchiotti C. - Let's say ... a picture that showed a
overlap between what we saw and starch.
PROSECUTOR - Yes, in any case, it was his
conclusion we say definitely dictated by his experience
but presumption.
Vecchiotti C. - Presumptive?
PROSECUTOR - That alleged starch granules or her ...
Vecchiotti C. - No, no, I'm sure.
PROSECUTOR - Can certify ...
Vecchiotti C. - I am sure.
PRESIDENT - But we must say that it was not covered by the
survey
because there was definitely something due to
physiological from which you could obtain DNA ...
PROSECUTOR - These are the analyzes made on the ... on
new tracks.
PRESIDENT - It is not that you were asked to assess all
what there was on the knife whatever it was,
mean.
PROSECUTOR - So he could have put that
starch granules were, anyway ...
Vecchiotti C. - I am granules ...
PROSECUTOR - Okay, are starch granules.
Page 47
Vecchiotti C. - I am ... and not only at that point but
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also at a point of the blade.
PROSECUTOR - So these granules are present on the
blade of the knife, right?
Vecchiotti C. - So are predominantly in H and I,
that is the point, I'm sorry but I have to find them, at the
point
of contact between the blade ...
CONTI S. - And the edge, and the handle.
Vecchiotti C. - ... And the handle. Then if we see ...
PROSECUTOR - So the new tracks, those yours?
Vecchiotti C. - Those ours. After that we found
on, on the sample on the sample A and F which are
the old handle and then on the E. ..
PROSECUTOR - grip, where there is DNA
Amanda.
Vecchiotti C. - Amanda, after which ... where it was found
Amanda's DNA previously.
PROSECUTOR - Yes.
Vecchiotti C. - And then at point E, back blade, even if
there
are one or two not more, so rare, it is
blade and was a previous infill.
PROSECUTOR - The presence of starch granules in
general, even if they were found on the track where
Stefanoni has considered the presence of Meredith's DNA,
the possible presence of starch granules also on that
track, although you do not have it found, right? On that
track?
Vecchiotti C. - There was.
PROSECUTOR - Here, have ruled out the previous
presence of biological traces, of biological material on
the same point?
CONTI S. - No.
Vecchiotti C. - That is, if we had we? Excuse me, I can
repeat the question?
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PRESIDENT - If you have found, as I understand it, trace
of starch at the point where Dr. Stefanoni ...
Vecchiotti C. - Where we find?
PRESIDENT - Yes, it could exclude ...
Vecchiotti C. - If this can not be excluded?
CONTI S. - That there was even a trace of Meredith.
PRESIDENT - ... that when Dr. Stefanoni has made
Page 48
analysis there were, as I understand it, there was DNA
Meredith?
Vecchiotti C. - I can not exclude that there was DNA.
PROSECUTOR - It can not be ruled out that there was DNA?
Okay '
this was the next question, Dr.
is apparently so good that I always anticipates, my
specific question was: the presence of starch cells but
also the presence of cells of wheat, maize, not
I know, sunflower oil, corn oil, whatever it excludes
also the presence of organic substances?
Vecchiotti C. - No.
JUDGE DR. Zanetti - That is incompatible? You mean this?
PROSECUTOR - Of course.
JUDGE DR. Zanetti - (Off microphone).
PROSECUTOR - However, he said no, thank you. And then I
he was saying then that can not be excluded that in
moment was made the first sampling there was
trace of DNA. It can not be excluded?
Vecchiotti C. - That there was a trace of DNA?
PROSECUTOR - Yes.
Vecchiotti C. - Be ', but here are two hypotheses, Lawyer,
because ...
And overlapping voices in the background.Vecchiotti C. - Look, I'm sorry, I ... believe me it is not
offensive
nor is it offensive.
Prosecutor - And no doctor but focuses look.
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59
Vecchiotti C. - I'm not devolved.
PROSECUTOR - why not be ... I did the Advocate
for ten years.
Vecchiotti C. - I'm not devolved but I do not know
Why at this time.
PROSECUTOR - Here, also focusing on ...
Vecchiotti C. - Public Ministry.
PROSECUTOR - ... for clarity of verbalization.
Vecchiotti C. - Certainly. It never happened.
PROSECUTOR - You understand that then remains ...
Vecchiotti C. - This time it's happened.
PROSECUTOR - You see that I have a face like a lawyer or not
I have a face like a prosecutor.
PRESIDENT - Everyone is free to think whatever you like.
CONTI S. - Call her doctor and Comfortable enough, so at
least ...
Vecchiotti C. - Dr Comfy ... then Dr. Handy
Page 49
say ...
PROSECUTOR - That's good, at least we cut the head of the
bull.
Vecchiotti C. - I do not remember the question, I can repeat
the
question please?
PROSECUTOR - In fact I already had placed however,
may exclude ... then, can not be excluded, this was the step
next but she anticipated him do so
Now, she on track B, where the knife, we
talking about the blade of the knife, where Dr.
Stefanoni has found traces of DNA which then attributed to
Meredith Kercher, at that point she made another
sampling right?
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
Prosecutor - And its sampling as was?
Vecchiotti C. - I. .. My sample was negative
with regard to the DNA.
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PROSECUTOR - The fact that she has not found evidence
DNA now, today in 2011, which excludes the doctor in 2007
has been unable to find any trace?
CONTI S. - We do not have a crystal ball.
Vecchiotti C. - So ...
PROSECUTOR - No, because when it comes to newspapers,
advertising, etc. In short the news: "The experts say
that there has never been on the blade of the knife DNA
Meredith. "
CONTI S. - But we do not give consideration to the
newspapers, I
say, the newspaper does not exist a thing like this.
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'but we can not follow the newspapers that
they say ...
Voices in the background.PROSECUTOR - No, I follow Lawyers, President,
the papers. Claims Bar Association.
Vecchiotti C. - No, the thing is this, I have a result of
fluorometer that says too low ...
PROSECUTOR - All right.
Vecchiotti C. - ... In all the acts that I've read ...
PROSECUTOR - That is too low, it means, too low.
Vecchiotti C. - Too low. In all actions that I have not read
I never found a certain value which refers to the
sample B, or both in the GUP Dr.,
I can search for it on the page though ...
PROSECUTOR - No issues because I lose so.
Page 50
Vecchiotti C. - And no, we did not.
Prosecutor - And no, that is, I mean, excuse me doctor,
but she ...
PRESIDENT - The question was different, however, the
question was
different.
PROSECUTOR - Exactly.
PRESIDENT - The question was, can you now deny that there
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61
then it had been even a minimal, now I do not know,
trace of DNA ...
Vecchiotti C. - I now I can not exclude but it is not
not even ...
PRESIDENT - ... taking into account the presence of these
cells
starch?
Vecchiotti C. - No, starch, however, would not have been in
any
way to affect the presence of DNA, I ...
THE PRESIDENT - That's that, then we can say that the starch
does not
could also exclude the presence of DNA at the time,
we say no?
Vecchiotti C. - Of course.
PROSECUTOR - Excuse me ... is the outside
reliability or not long after that we'll get ...
PRESIDENT - Very ... after that?
PROSECUTOR - President remind you that the experts
spoke from nine-thirty in the morning to four in the
afternoon, to touch all the points ...
PRESIDENT - Okay ', but rather suspend here. I worried
Here you are.
PROSECUTOR - Maybe it has something to worry about this
point of view. Then, I said, beyond the quantification ...
then, the stage of quantification she felt that
it is important to know that is essentially what I in DNA
then make available to the amplification that makes you
off the track with the peaks. The phase of the
Quantification she said that it is very important but it is
founded ...
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
Prosecutor - But if the phase quantification
bypasses the PCR process is the same as outside
or not? You can do the same or not?
Vecchiotti C. - If there is enough DNA is a good route,
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Page 51
62
if there is not enough DNA comes out a path
any or even nothing.
PROSECUTOR - Ugly, that's fine.
Vecchiotti C. - Or even nothing.
PROSECUTOR - Or even if nothing is really minimal. And in
this case a path, forget the kindness of that
talk later, a track came out or not? From
PCR, we always talk about the substance of the alleged knife
Meredith's blood.
Vecchiotti C. - Yes, it came out a path.
PROSECUTOR - So that means, even though it was low,
There was DNA, then we will talk about the quantity, but
there was DNA?
That is, it could not be cauliflower.
Vecchiotti C. - He could, DNA could be yes.
PROSECUTOR - could be DNA. The fluorometer, which she
know, never indicates the precise amount? That means that it
is
less sensitive? Here, she said that it is less sensitive to
beyond that is not specific ...
Vecchiotti C. - Arrive at 200 picograms but 200 picograms
while the other comes to 23 picograms.
PROSECUTOR - So we can say that she can not be excluded
that if Dr. Stefanoni had used the Real-Time
maybe did not come out that writing generic but too low
came out a precise quantification of DNA?
Vecchiotti C. - It would be like coming off a quantification
is
coming out to me, in our investigations.
Prosecutor - How to "like it is coming ..."?
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - Professor of us do not hear,
should ...
Vecchiotti C. - A picogram picogram 5, 0 picograms,
this would come out.
PROSECUTOR - No sorry, we're talking about
track ...
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Vecchiotti C. - The trace.
PROSECUTOR - ... extracted ...
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
PROSECUTOR - ... that is sampled from four Stefanoni
years ago.
Vecchiotti C. - Four years ago, of course.
PROSECUTOR - That is not the same that you have analyzed
you of course.
Page 52
Vecchiotti C. - Then certainly would have given a value.
PROSECUTOR - The Real-Time certainly would have given a
value.
Vecchiotti C. - The Real-Time would have given a value.
PROSECUTOR - Well ', I think this is important.
Vecchiotti C. - Of course.
PROSECUTOR - I missed another question that I wanted to
do I need a moment ...
PRESIDENT - If you want to take a break, a short break from
ten minutes to ...
PROSECUTOR - Ten minutes thanks.
PRESIDENT - ... to rest all a bit ', because
attention must be total. (Suspension).
TO RECOVERYPRESIDENT - It resumed at 12:20; please Audience
Ministry, may retake the exam.
PROSECUTOR - Let's finish what we were for a moment
saying that the B track of the knife, so we
concluded that she can not be excluded or can not exclude
that there
was at the time of the first laboratory tests, those
conducted by Dr. Stefanoni in the laboratories of
Scientific, human DNA?
Vecchiotti C. - From what I've seen I can say that it was
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64
Suddenly, we had an electropherogram that
corresponds to human DNA but can not say if that human DNA
was really on track.
PROSECUTOR - No Excuse me, this must be explained.
Vecchiotti C. - Well 'yes because these are two hypotheses,
ie
I mean the hypothesis is that the ...
PROSECUTOR - He's talking about contamination.
Vecchiotti C. - Of course, I can not exclude mica.
Prosecutor - But I did not ask, the
contamination to be discussed later.
Vecchiotti C. - Let's talk later, however, I would like to
make it clear
this, that we are taking for granted, this seems to me
to understand, correct me ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes, and I believe that until proven otherwise
we should not take it for granted?
Vecchiotti C. - Well, 'no one has yet demonstrated how DNA
there was and if there was no B on that track?
PROSECUTOR - We have just said that because there is
otherwise the electropherogram would not have gone out.
Page 53
Vecchiotti C. - We have not seen what there was, it could
also
be zero and then falls into the contamination, sorry.
That is, we have not said how much there was ...
PRESIDENT - We are anticipating things because ...
Vecchiotti C. - I No, no no I wanted to be precise in
this, that we're saying, we're doing a whole
reasoning that we got an electropherogram,
how reliable this is or what he told me
Dr. rightly Comfortable ...
PRESIDENT - But the doctor, Dr. Vecchiotti Excuse ...
Vecchiotti C. - Please.
PRESIDENT - ... the application of the Public Prosecutor, to
whom she
I think the other has already answered before ...
PROSECUTOR - Yeah, but I wanted to ...
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65
PRESIDENT - Now, in summary, to say renew the
row.
Vecchiotti C. - Yeah Sure.
PRESIDENT - The question was, can you rule out whether or
not there was
at the time when Dr. Stefanoni has made its
analysis, despite the presence of starch, can not be
excluded or not
there was also the DNA? Was to say roughly the
question.
CONTI S. - Can not be excluded but can not be excluded even
contamination.
PROSECUTOR - Then on the track B starch was not there for
which ...
PRESIDENT - It seems to me that he responded by saying "no I
can not
exclude. "
Vecchiotti C. - No, I can not rule out, of course.
Prosecutor - But we also went to the step
next, that human DNA was analyzed in the track
from Stefanoni and that produced the electropherogram that
She then analyzed and commented in some way and
judged? There was human DNA?
Vecchiotti C. - There was human DNA because it was ...
PROSECUTOR - Then we'll talk about how he got there after.
Vecchiotti C. - Of course.
PROSECUTOR - So there was or was not there?
Vecchiotti C. - There was.
PROSECUTOR - I can define, we arrive at
Page 54
contamination, at this point we speak of contamination
so we take this tooth: what does it mean
contamination?
Vecchiotti C. - According to the definition of the Company
International Forensic Genetics is something foreign
brought from outside.
PROSECUTOR - Something stranger brought from outside.
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66
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
PROSECUTOR - So something ...
Vecchiotti C. - This is what defines it.
PROSECUTOR - Something that does not relate to the crime say
in question, and we went at random, right?
Vecchiotti C. - This is the narrow definition that is
given by the International Society of Forensic Genetics but
not
it is only this, you can see how the contamination from
page 85 and following of the report ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes, I read it, yes.
Vecchiotti C. - I know you read it. Shows all
possible, the possibility of contamination of a sample
low copy number and which are not only foreign material
but that can take place at various times and in various ways
and are
reported here.
PROSECUTOR - More foreign material is however not?
Vecchiotti C. - It 's foreign material ...
PROSECUTOR - I mean, I find something that I should not
find in substance.
Vecchiotti C. - Certainly, certainly.
PROSECUTOR - It 'so?
Vecchiotti C. - It 's something that I should not find him
and instead
I find.
Prosecutor - But it is.
Vecchiotti C. - Yeah right.
PROSECUTOR - It 'so?
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
PROSECUTOR - The Locard what states
precisely?
Vecchiotti C. - This is yours.
CONTI S. - That when two bodies have a contact are
transmitted
somehow something which then remains fixed at
contact, derived from the same contact.
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Page 55
67
Prosecutor - And let's say ...
CONTI S. - If I want him to state as it is in
Actually, I do not know I can bring ...
PROSECUTOR - No, I have tried ...
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - Can we have a little 'more
voice
because we do not feel.
CONTI S. - Yes I'm sorry President.
PROSECUTOR - Although I've tried, the principle of
Locard on various Internet sites and say the principle of
Locard is inserted, say delves more specifically
the crime scene and then says something else
because this is the concept but something perhaps more
specifically with regard to court cases.
CONTI S. - No, I would say that this is the basis of
contamination, in the sense that it is the principle on
which it is based
everything is a bit 'like Galileo Galilei who gave a
revolution from a certain point of view and from that basis,
it was
then created a whole science in physics, so if a
person has enunciated a principle then determined from the
derived from them then all the other subsequent studies.
PROSECUTOR - Okay, I was unclear, then
I formulate the question in a different way: it is wrong to
say that
Locard says that the author of the crime, or the authors of
the
Crime always leave traces on the body of the victim and the
scene of the crime and the victim always leaves vice versa
some traces of the crime and the place always leaves some
track on the author or authors of the crime?
CONTI S. - Of course.
PROSECUTOR - It 'so?
CONTI S. - It 's so but there is also another, there is also
another
account to do this, that all the people
attending that particular scene of the crime
subsequently, or other people who attend those
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68
certain environments, they can also leave traces
mute and silent of their passage.
PROSECUTOR - Certainly, this is a corollary of the
Locard principle is not it?
CONTI S. - Absolutely.
Page 56
PROSECUTOR - How you can prove
the presence of contamination? Contamination during the
inspection, during repertazione or during the analysis of
a finding.
CONTI S. - We can contaminate both during the inspection if
her ...
PROSECUTOR - No, no, in that way you can try it
because of the dangers of contamination are irregular ipsa
say.
CONTI S. - Yes, of course. Then we say that in the case of a
the survey did not, however, define the most
accurately as possible the area of the event that there is
criminal
state and the transfer from the outside to the outside can
cause contamination.
PROSECUTOR - No, this is not proof of
contamination.
CONTI S. - The evidence, excuse me for interrupting doctor,
the
test in this specific case is directly from
video films which are deposited in acts.
PROSECUTOR - That is, there would be evidence of what? For
example of what?
CONTI S. - What for example ...
PROSECUTOR - No, we do concrete example, there is the
evidence that Stefanoni had Sollecito's DNA on the gloves?
CONTI S. - No look ...
Prosecutor - But this is the proof, I ask you this.
CONTI S. - No.
Prosecutor - And yes.
CONTI S. - I'm not, look ...
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69
PROSECUTOR - Otherwise they are only indications and even
serious look at it, legally speaking.
CONTI S. - Then the doctor simply carry
statement of Dr. Stefanoni in which, for
Regarding you say, if I understand your question correctly,
that on that finger was dirty right? I have said that
was dirty ...
PROSECUTOR - I have not seen it but I trust, I have not
view the stain sincerely.
CONTI S. - Okay. Ah did not see it? If I want him to
revise ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but in fact we will see later the movie.
CONTI S. - Okay. On that video there were traces of dirt,
or the glove was not clean.
Page 57
Prosecutor - And there was Sollecito's DNA?
CONTI S. - Look, I'm sorry doctor, but the DNA is not that
the halo and green that you see ...
PROSECUTOR - Exactly so ...
CONTI S. - Yeah, but then ...
PROSECUTOR - In fact, I must say ...
PRESIDENT - But ...
CONTI S. - Wait, no no no, sorry President ...
THE PRESIDENT - No, no, excuse me a moment, the question was
different,
atteniamoci, we answer their questions otherwise ends
that disperse in a thousand streams unnecessarily. The
question
was: how can you prove that there is contamination? namely
I say that, here in general that I have completely
unaware of this type of thing I would say if we find the DNA
someone who was not there in that room, that there was no
on the site, here.
PROSECUTOR - Exactly.
CONTI S. - Let's ...
PRESIDENT - So how's the test, because one thing is the
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70
suspicion ...
Prosecutor - And that certainly could not be there.
PRESIDENT - ... of contamination, an account is proof that
there
is contamination, the prosecutor asked the
evidence of contamination, not what might be inferred
that there has been contamination.
Vecchiotti C. - For example, in the investigation of DNA in
the
laboratory is known and is described in all the kits
registration of the negative controls in order to verify or
less
if they are negative or not.
Prosecutor - And she has asked for negative controls
to Dr. Stefanoni?
Vecchiotti C. - I asked Dr. Stefanoni more
times and she knows that I sent them several times files
on the examinations he had done, it was obvious that there
had to be and were not there.
PROSECUTOR - Why was it obvious?
Vecchiotti C. - Why do you put the negative control, in a
If then among other things so delicate when you know that
you speak
contamination do not see why it should not have
Page 58
inserted.
Prosecutor - But the negative controls were in fact already
inserted to the proceedings, she states that the
negative controls are not there?
Vecchiotti C. - No look to me, I asked directly
the doctor and I have all of them here ...
PROSECUTOR - No he has not asked.
Vecchiotti C. - No sorry, I asked the doctor ...
PROSECUTOR - No teacher, no.
Vecchiotti C. - Then we have the email ...
PRESIDENT - But Prosecutor, she was not sorry.
Vecchiotti C. - Excuse me, I even e-mails.
PROSECUTOR - No, Mr. President, but I read the email.
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71
PRESIDENT - Have patience ...
Vecchiotti C. - Also I have read the email where it says
of ... So, when I ask in the mail several times and even
send me the CD and sent me via e-mail, because it is proper
that I
sent him and was cooperative, I owe him this
say and I repeat, do sends electropherograms for
granted, I ask the first time, I ask the second
Once, I tell you even more of the other party consultants
Rodata ask for, ask (inaudible), asking
everything and more, it is clear that he should send it to
me, I
say you attach at least to show that all
reagents, that everything was negative, this is one of
reasons.
Prosecutor - But she excludes ... however, you bring me
always to accelerate, the next steps in the ones that I
I was scheduled to head anyway, she excludes the
Stefanoni has not sent them to him because the controls
negatives were already inserted to the proceedings?
Vecchiotti C. - But I've never seen them in the acts of
process, I have them searching for, if you have it and there
are no
were performed that is another thing, that I learn
now that they were attached, I do not know, should know
this.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - No, not there.
PROSECUTOR - were deposited on 8 October 2008 in
GUP hearing.
Vecchiotti C. - Excuse me, all here ... and there are the
negatives? Then
there have been sent here because I have the email.
Page 59
Prosecutor - But mandates, of course, the doctor has
mandate that was not already the case and that she
specifically requested as it is not present in the file.
Vecchiotti C. - Well 'then those 8 there no one has ever
performed, even we saw them.
PROSECUTOR - Here then, but she had them or not have them
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had at his disposal?
Vecchiotti C. - No, I had not.
PRESIDENT - If anything, we will do further investigation,
if any, and
're going to see 8, said prosecutor 8?
PROSECUTOR - October 2008 ...
PRESIDENT - We will make a further investigation during
summer.
PROSECUTOR - ... before the GUP.
Vecchiotti C. - This is a must see.
PRESIDENT - To see if there are actually.
PROSECUTOR - Professor So if the controls
There are negative and are in fact negative, contamination
at least that should be excluded from the lab?
Vecchiotti C. - And no lawyer, there is another special ...
there
nothing to laugh about.
PROSECUTOR - I'm not ... Lawyer
Voices in the background and overlapping.PRESIDENT - It is not an insult ...
Vecchiotti C. - Look, it's not an insult otherwise
should offend all our Lawyers. I do not know
Why ... so obviously it is her figure.
PRESIDENT - It is not serious, although they may resent the
Lawyers.
Vecchiotti C. - Exactly, and not her doctor.
PROSECUTOR - No, I say, for clarity of the report.
PRESIDENT - Go ahead.
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - (Off microphone).
Vecchiotti C. - Doctor, contamination can also occur
between the sample and the sample, right? In a laboratory,
as
we also reported and as reported throughout the literature
International ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes, yes.
Vecchiotti C. - ... The contamination, and should not, it
should be noted,
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Page 60
can be done by simply opening a tube near
and another because when you open the tube forms a
species of aerosols, it ends up in the tube that must
be amplified preferentially amplifies and we
we know, at least I do so I learn from the documents then
correct me
if I'm wrong, that the champion has never been examined ...
PROSECUTOR - Which one?
Vecchiotti C. - We are talking about the 36B I think not?
PROSECUTOR - The knife.
Vecchiotti C. - The knife of course.
PROSECUTOR - I wanted to talk about before repertazione
for more ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - (Off microphone).
Vecchiotti C. - No Excuse ...
PROSECUTOR - Okay, 'knife.
Vecchiotti C. - She is talking about contamination, I the
I say that I simply wanted to test the ...
PRESIDENT - We were talking about the knife.
Vecchiotti C. - Then we have that, we never
seen, so there's probably, if she says no, then
from sample to sample is a known fact because it is a form
of
aerosols when you open ...
PROSECUTOR - All right, but ...
Vecchiotti C. - ... We know ...
PROSECUTOR - ... in this case ...
Vecchiotti C. - Can I finish? Can I finish the ...
PRESIDENT - Let her finish.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - President, let's finish the
But no answers?
PROSECUTOR - I understand but ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - Let's finish the answers, each
Once there is a break ...
PRESIDENT - It will demand later when he finished.
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Vecchiotti C. - So, at this point, as you can see in
page 89 there may be an obvious amplification
preferential contaminating DNA, I can not see him,
Is that clear? And this sample was examined over a period of
other samples that have been tested and I read that
the doctor has included the examination of at least 50 other
samples of the victim, then I wonder what it is, how
I can rule out that it may be a contamination occurred
This mechanism from sample to sample? I can not
exclude Lawyer ... Doctor, I'm sorry, I do not know
Page 61
because ...
PROSECUTOR - So, what can not be ruled ...
look we understand what the rules are, we understand
what are the dangers, we understand that you can not
ruled out. can not be excluded either that two robbers
Now at gunpoint come here and suddenly there
make all out, but since it can not exclude to try
the road is long, so I said, I wanted to ask
then the example of the two tubes, she found that the
Dr. Stefanoni has opened two test tubes with two finds
different, containing DNA of Meredith, in the same
session?
Vecchiotti C. - I can not read what I have found, but
he wrote.
Prosecutor - But he must have found.
Vecchiotti C. - How can I ensure if it is a test that has
done ...
PRESIDENT - But how? No prosecutor do the
reasonable questions, sorry prosecutor we do
reasonable questions.
Vecchiotti C. - Excuse me, in 2007 made them, I was not
present
huh.
Prosecutor - And why not, why not ...
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PRESIDENT - Otherwise we lose time unnecessarily, as you can
that Dr. ...
PROSECUTOR - President, I rely on his
conclusions.
PRESIDENT - ...Vecchiotti can know if three or four years
ago
years ago, Dr. Stefanoni has opened two tubes ...
Voices in the background.PROSECUTOR - Very well, perfect. It can not be excluded
but he can not know.
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'but we do otherwise reasonable questions
waste time.
Vecchiotti C. - But it is she who says ...
PROSECUTOR - The responses must be
reasonable ...
Vecchiotti C. - ... That was examined in the laboratory
together
all other findings, it is you.
PRESIDENT - We look forward to the next question.
PROSECUTOR - That is what it means ...
PRESIDENT - Reasonable, the Public Prosecutor.
Page 62
PROSECUTOR - Excuse me, that means that it has analyzed the
knife along with all the other findings in the same
laboratory? That is, he had to go to the laboratory of RIS?
That
should he do?
Vecchiotti C. - No no no, look she is asking me if I
evidence that has opened next to the tube
another ...
PROSECUTOR - It does?
Vecchiotti C. - ... I say that I do not have proof but she
declares that all laboratory has certainly not stopped for
treating the case Kercher, but has been included in a whole
series of procedures and analysis they were doing.
Prosecutor - And then other procedures.
Vecchiotti C. - Not even the same, she says that the other
50 ...
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PROSECUTOR - Yes, but also of other proceedings or not?
Vecchiotti C. - It simply says that other colleagues have
also did other things but that she has entered this
sample ...
CONTI S. - Together.
Vecchiotti C. - ... Between 50 and 60 samples ...
PROSECUTOR - Very well, then ...
CONTI S. - Of the Kercher case.
Vecchiotti C. - ... So I do not have proof because I was not
there
but I can not exclude that this could have happened.
PROSECUTOR - So, this clear from the documents, she knows
what was the last item analyzed by Dr.
Stefanoni containing Meredith's DNA prior to analysis of
knife?
Vecchiotti C. - I can not know because I was not there,
Lawyer.
Voices in the background.Vecchiotti C. - And I know, I'm sorry.
PRESIDENT - It should be 'well ...
Vecchiotti C. - Do you ... do not get angry ...
PRESIDENT - It 's true, there was not.
Vecchiotti C. - There was.
PRESIDENT - I believe this is peaceful, there was not.
PROSECUTOR - The SAL examined them? The acts to which
President if you do not need to examine them, I mean that is
has
made the fleas to the minutes of the hearing that it would
perhaps be the
Page 63
If they did the jurists ...
PRESIDENT - We can say that he does not know which was the
last
before the knife ...
PROSECUTOR - In the SAL is written huh.
Vecchiotti C. - I do not know.
PRESIDENT - I do not know. Moving on.
PROSECUTOR - In the SAL's it say?
Vecchiotti C. - I have not seen it say?
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PROSECUTOR - Did not you see?
THE PRESIDENT - No, not there.
Vecchiotti C. - There is.
PROSECUTOR - He has not seen or does not say?
Vecchiotti C. - I have not seen ... Lawyer, I ...
CONTI S. - E. .. Dr. ...
Vecchiotti C. - Lawyer think is offensive, Dr.
look ... Can not ...
PROSECUTOR - Then I'll tell you ...
PRESIDENT - The call doctor and go ...
CONTI S. - Dr.
Vecchiotti C. - Look, it's an amazing thing.
Prosecutor - Will check the SAL? They want to verify or
I tell him? I do not know.
Vecchiotti C. - You tell me.
PROSECUTOR - The last sample containing DNA
Meredith, before the knife, was analyzed six days
before the same knife. In those six days was not
simply did not do anything ... Kercher because the process
in the meantime had been stopped, it had been adopted
procedure stopped the three suspects who then become
defendants, in fact one of the four which then excluded from
the
Scientific same. Then you're days are a period of time
sufficient to ensure that the tube of the previous
finding has not been in contact with the tube of the
knife?
CONTI S. - The hook has been 46 days ... has been found ...
according to them.
PROSECUTOR - You had to wait six years?
Vecchiotti C. - Look, I have based on what she has
said.
PROSECUTOR - All right. There were all the acts
but Dr. ...
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Page 64
Vecchiotti C. - She, she says.
PROSECUTOR - Okay, you do not have to justify,
Now answer me by ...
PRESIDENT - Say if the six days seem sufficient or not,
because there was no risk of contamination,
question is this.
Vecchiotti C. - There are sufficient, if it went well.
PRESIDENT - Go ahead.
PROSECUTOR - Okay ', however, her teacher is the expert,
non-partisan ...
Vecchiotti C. - Certainly.
PROSECUTOR - So, I mean, no one can doubt all
the times of what's written on official acts
the Scientific Police. It seems to me inappropriate.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - President, we can ask
exactly refers to such acts? Because when does the
Six Day speech ...
PROSECUTOR - The SAL, the SAL, the state of progress
works.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - The SAL we have them several
times
requested, we do not have the date of the amplification,
then
this is a fact that we have repeatedly asked, today the
Prosecutor informs us that there would be a period of
time of six days.
PRESIDENT - I wonder when will the consultant.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - But completeness of this
question
could refer to the document so at least we're going to
see if it actually exists in the acts, because according to
we do not ...
PROSECUTOR - The SAL which were acquired by the GUP.
PRESIDENT - At this point, when will Dr. Stefanoni
ask him.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - Okay thank you.
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PROSECUTOR - No, this time I am wrong, the SAL were
deposited by Dr. Stefanoni in August ...
Voice in the background.PROSECUTOR - July 30, 2009 in the first trial
so they can be accessed by anyone.
PRESIDENT - So? I did not understand anything, if I repeated
courtesy.
PROSECUTOR - These SAL, these lists are that the
progress of the work, all that has happened
Page 65
in the course of days, etc., etc., have been
deposited at the request of the parties, ie the defenders to
end of July 2009 or during the process of
first instance, and then before the Court of Assizes then
disposal experts.
PRESIDENT - Okay.
Prosecutor - And over those six days ... then he
enough said, okay. We return back to this
point follow them, we go back to the repertazione
knife because the experts have rightly stated and
no one can contradict that there may be contamination,
contamination is possible in all phases of the
procedure, which is the moment in which is located the
alleged
body of the crime, at the time when you take, you reperta,
you
door to the police station, then to the Scientific, in
short, there are
various phases of this knife can be contaminated. You
right? Yes or no?
CONTI S. - Yes.
PROSECUTOR - Let's go back, back to the stage of
repertazione, Find and repertazione, when
has been found ...
Voices in the background.PRESIDENT - Excuse Public Prosecutor. You're welcome.
PROSECUTOR - So, when and where we are in the
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when it is found the knife?
CONTI S. - From what is in practice acts are in
Sollecito's house, there is a record of the search so ...
PROSECUTOR - So we are in the course of a
search.
CONTI S. - Exactly.
PROSECUTOR - She obviously knows the difference between
inspection and search.
CONTI S. - Yes I have reported, is expertise in the ... what
occurred ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but what is the difference between
inspection
technical course ...
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'but what you're getting prosecutor?
Skip this question and ...
PROSECUTOR - Where I'm going? They have, in some
Steps have also said that the search was not
filmed, searches President did not filmed here in
Page 66
What I'm getting at, however, suggest that if then
answer ...
CONTI S. - Let me explain, I explain why we have said,
written in this survey, because ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but the difference between inspection and
search?
CONTI S. - That the survey is filmed, he said it also
her ...
PROSECUTOR - What is an inspection and what is the
search
CONTI S. - Of course becomes an investigation, the
investigation of
inspection is to fence the entire area, begin
from the outside inwards with a certain technique.
PROSECUTOR - Those are the techniques.
CONTI S. - That's right.
Prosecutor - But what is the survey? Which
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purpose of the survey was compared to search?
CONTI S. - It 'identifying the crime scene, find all
many items that can be ascribed to the scene
the crime. The reperta ...
PROSECUTOR - For the research track. And the
search?
CONTI S. - The search is going to find certain
elements that may be useful to the investigation.
PROSECUTOR - To search for the body of the crime.
CONTI S. - Very well.
PROSECUTOR - O exhibits relating to the offense. The
inspection is done by technicians, the search by the
Judicial Police right?
CONTI S. - Of course.
PROSECUTOR - So, we urge the house, it is a
search, it is doing the Flying Squad.
CONTI S. - Well.
PROSECUTOR - Right?
CONTI S. - According to the documents.
PROSECUTOR - So what exactly does the Inspector Finzi
that takes the knife with gloves and shoes? It should be
'the
shoes ... with the gloves?
CONTI S. - Then there are some elements that result from the
deposition of the people who have made the search
home reminder. Then the verbal meanwhile, normally,
as a rule starting from outside to inside and from
minutes show outside the house, so before
Page 67
enter, there is the repertazione of certain newspapers with
the day's events. So already at that stage we say
they should have ...
PROSECUTOR - there is no seizure, there is no
repertazione because we are talking of the Judicial Police.
CONTI S. - No sorry, yes the seizure, the seizure of some
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newspapers, already in this case it would be due, but not
turns out, we do not have information for evaluating, have
already
touched anything from the outside to the inside.
Prosecutor - But is not the opposite though.
CONTI S. - Do not even show the opposite but we can not
exclude.
Prosecutor - But it is not even the opposite.
CONTI S. - Absolutely not, however, we have another element,
ie
in the sense ...
PROSECUTOR - It 's reasonable to think that in those papers
there was Meredith's DNA?
CONTI S. - I do not ... I do not ... I can not, I guess not.
PROSECUTOR - No, it is reasonable?
CONTI S. - Of course not, of course not. But let's say ...
PROSECUTOR - Okay, 'of course not. We continue, then
come ...
CONTI S. - Enter the ... I do not remember which of the two
practically opens the top drawer because it is found
direct him to open the first drawer and removes the
First, the knife that was the first thing on.
Prosecutor - And the kitchen was the first room.
CONTI S. - The kitchen was the first room. There is also,
the statement that indicated a strong smell of bleach,
if I'm not mistaken right doctor?
PROSECUTOR - Yes, yes, that destroys the DNA right?
CONTI S. - This is a speech that we can do after
Doctor.
PROSECUTOR - Okay.
CONTI S. - Of course yes, but we have to make assessments
about this but we can do it later.
PROSECUTOR - Yes, yes, that's fine.
CONTI S. - The fact that he opened the drawer means
she was wearing a pair of gloves does not appear that the
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Just when he opened the drawer is
changed gloves to pick up the knife.
Page 68
PROSECUTOR - All right.
CONTI S. - It does not appear. Of course you can tell me
would also
esserseli not be changed and, of course, or be
exactly, but ...
PROSECUTOR - Where should be?
CONTI S. - But there is, but there is an important element
because those
did that seizure of the knife also stated,
acts, which he normally wears a pair of gloves,
then results in the pouch of the Police then
is a single pair of gloves to be used, this means
say that in all the search he used however a
one pair of gloves.
PROSECUTOR - All right.
CONTI S. - There is another element ...
PROSECUTOR - Excuse me, but ...
CONTI S. - No, no, let me finish because ...
Prosecutor - And no no ...
CONTI S. - She asked me what happens and I end up.
PROSECUTOR - Okay, 'but ...
PRESIDENT - Let it do the questions because ...
CONTI S. - Very well.
PROSECUTOR - Let's go step by step. All right, let's
assume that Finzi had only one pair of gloves, what is the
first object that has touched?
CONTI S. - The handle of the drawer to open it.
PROSECUTOR - Well 'may have also touched the papers
before.
CONTI S. - Please? I did not understand.
PROSECUTOR - could also have touched the papers
before ...
CONTI S. - Of course it could also ...
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PROSECUTOR - ... because I do not know who took them.
CONTI S. - Of course, it could also have touched many things
outside the house with the same pair of gloves.
PROSECUTOR - All right. And it is reasonable to assume that
on the handle of the ... We have already said that the
newspapers do not
is reasonable to believe that there was Meredith's DNA, and
the
drawer handle?
CONTI S. - Look, here we are talking about procedures
contamination or anti-contamination, we're talking about
of what needs to be done.
Page 69
PROSECUTOR - No, no, I'm talking about ... she speaks of
procedures, I speak of evidence of contamination of Meredith
on the knife because that is what interests us.
CONTI S. - No, evidence of contamination of Meredith on the
knife
I can not say that there may or may not be.
Prosecutor - But it seems to me that seemed so.
CONTI S. - No.
Prosecutor - But yes, because this is what affects
to the Court, we are not at the university, we are in a
process I want to say no?
CONTI S. - Of course, no doubt, but the reality is that the
person
touched the outside, touched certain newspapers, is
entered, touched a drawer, opened the drawer and
touched the knife but did not end there because the
knife.
PROSECUTOR - Perfect. You have not, however, doubted the
Amanda's DNA on the handle it?
CONTI S. - But DNA ...
PROSECUTOR - Do you agree?
CONTI S. - There, there moto ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes or no?
CONTI S. - Yes, of course there is.
PROSECUTOR - Well, perfect. Then, if necessary,
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let's just localized contamination on the blade? The
handle, it was not contaminated by Finzi, only the
blade.
CONTI S. - No, the contamination on the blade so we have
doubts
but also because there is no handle on the consideration
do ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but the procedure was the same doctor
we are in the same context, the object the same, but on
two different places you've taken two conclusions
completely different.
CONTI S. - No.
PROSECUTOR - The handle everything goes well because it's
all
well, not on the knife.
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'but this is not a question, it is a
consideration that she will use in the discussions, let's
questions ...
CONTI S. - Excuse me President ...
PROSECUTOR - Let's say that helps the dialogue.
Page 70
CONTI S. - Excuse me, we respond. You're welcome.
Vecchiotti C. - The DNA was on the handle of a quantity
enough then gave an electropherogram well
readable and clear.
PROSECUTOR - This does not mean that ...
Vecchiotti C. - That does not mean what?
PROSECUTOR - not necessarily mean that it can not
be the result of contamination or contamination there
we have only small traces, DNA scarce?
Vecchiotti C. - Look, when it comes to the low copy number
What is the most important contamination.
PROSECUTOR - No, but now let loose the talk ...
Excuse Finzi was cut with the knife and had
flooded the drawer of his blood would have been
contaminated the knife? Yes.
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86
Vecchiotti C. - Of course.
PROSECUTOR - Sure, maybe with a copious amount
of blood, and then with an equally copious quantities of DNA
yet even that would have been contamination, no?
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
PROSECUTOR - Perfect.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - And what is the question?
Prosecutor - And no, if ... is an interview because I
constantly interrupt the experts ...
PRESIDENT - Let's questions, considerations, precisely
we ask questions.
PROSECUTOR - He said, she said yes. Fine.
Then back to the moment in which Finzi takes with this
glove, you will not know what hit first, the
knife, until now, up to this moment
possibility that the knife blade has been contaminated
from the DNA of Meredith exist?
CONTI S. - Look, I can not know what the Finzi has
touched on earlier, I can not know if Meredith had
attended or had ...
PROSECUTOR - No, never, never.
CONTI S. - ... Or had had, had ...
PRESIDENT - But wait a minute ...
PROSECUTOR - Did you read the documents President, read
all acts.
PRESIDENT - Yes, yes, sorry just a moment or else turn
to no avail. I wanted a clarification by the experts, for
what
I understand it, but I would just rather be
illuminated, for what I understood on the second blade
Page 71
you there is not a sufficient response to be able to
identify
DNA anybody say, or is there a trace that
can somehow be traced back to Meredith? Why is
I would like to understand this, because if you think there
is
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87
DNA suitable for attribute it to anyone that is useless
we do all of these questions.
PROSECUTOR - President is a full profile.
PRESIDENT - Huh?
PROSECUTOR - There is a full profile.
Voices in the background.PRESIDENT - Okay, 'I do not know, I'd like to hear what
their
they say.
Vecchiotti C. - There is a complete profile that since we
from
profile we traced backwards to think that there could
be a low quantity of DNA, because I want to
stress once again that it has never been established as it
was,
could be zero, and therefore it is contaminated, it could be
2, could be 20, you do not know, we talk about a few hundred
picograms, then never again, at least so, unless
Today we tell you otherwise, or that has been re-
quantized, was refocused again, even here
have no value, we do not know anything, we do not know
if there was really there or not Meredith's DNA, came
out a profile of Meredith, full as they say,
but you have to see how it should be interpreted that
profile because
the kit speaks clearly, is not one that has been used
particular kit, particularly sensitive as those that
have come out now, it's a kit that was used to give
acceptable profiles must not fall below the
500 picograms and we have seen that we are probably
highly below. So that profile, if we go to
look in retrospect we can say, I can also
riproiettarle all because then I made them see, it has peaks
unbalanced, has loss of alleles at a certain point, there is
a
Adding other two races because they are made to be
acceptable should be complied with certain
directions that are given ...
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Page 72
88
PRESIDENT - Yes, but there is something ...
Vecchiotti C. - There is one thing I want to say the wrong
interpretation
made according to at least the directions of the kit, if
there
we want to follow.
PRESIDENT - Yes, but I say ...
Vecchiotti C. - Above or below 50 which is the minimum limit
is
everything below, I mean.
PRESIDENT - But what you have is something that is
some way be related to Meredith or not?
Vecchiotti C. - A profile that can not be confirmed and that
we do not know if it's a profile from DNA that was present
there, or
DNA that may have or put on the blade, or during the steps
of
amplification, all phases of repertazione,
amplification, from everything that we can not
know.
PROSECUTOR - In fact we're getting there, in short, the
conclusion is the profile exists, is Meredith, but it can be
the result of contamination, fine. So when we see
this contamination ...
THE PRESIDENT - No, no, I did not understand it but ...
Vecchiotti C. - Not so.
PROSECUTOR - full profile.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - President but ...
PRESIDENT - This is a review here.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - ... I believe that we can not
things that do not synthesize the expert says.
PROSECUTOR - Okay, then ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - That is the summary of the
Public
Ministry ...
PROSECUTOR - So if I do continue to make
questions ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - ... sometimes an opposition,
then I
I believe that the synthesis can make the Public Prosecutor
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89
home to the indictment, asks questions at this time, the
I would ask you not to make a synthesis that do not
correspond to what
said the expert.
Page 73
PROSECUTOR - Okay.
PRESIDENT - Yes, yes, but that I understood myself. Come
forward, to see if this was the case for insisting so much
contamination with Meredith on the blade because if you do
not
We have nothing, according to them, according to them, after
the
another question is, if they think there is nothing that
can reasonably be attributed to Meredith ...
PROSECUTOR - He said there is a complete profile, I
felt bad?
PRESIDENT - ... it is useless ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - He did not say that.
PRESIDENT - ... we're talking about contamination of
Meredith.
PROSECUTOR - I felt bad? There is a complete profile?
Vecchiotti C. - There is a profile not reliable. Absolutely
not
interpretable.
PROSECUTOR - E 'is complete or not complete? How many loci
are there?
Vecchiotti C. - Then it's a complete profile, not reliable
and
not repeated ...
PROSECUTOR - E 'is incompatible with the profile of
Meredith?
Vecchiotti C. - So, according to the standards that are
used, or whether it is necessary to consider all
alleles that are above 50 RFU, there is not one or
perhaps there are two that are above 50 RFU, and I
I can show them and there is an imbalance of total
alleles. If we then consider also those that are high
15 and 50 then we do not all come out but it is not
this has to be judged, absolutely. This has been done.
PROSECUTOR - know the background noise
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the apparatus, the background noise of the
equipment ... if you want to go into specifics go
Specifically, the background noise of the apparatus
Stefanoni's ...
Vecchiotti C. - Behold, the noise floor is done in such a
way that
not necessary to consider ...
Prosecutor - But I ... I have not finished the question
Doctor.
Vecchiotti C. - Excuse me, I thought, since he asked me if
Page 74
I had ...
PROSECUTOR - know the background noise
the apparatus used by the Scientific, not of
that type of equipment, the equipment
used by the Scientific taken with maintenance
by the Scientific Police, etc., the background noise is
those very low ridges practically that can confuse
ideas in some way and are common to all machines
However, some less good seal has a background noise
high, right?
Vecchiotti C. - The background noise depends on the analytes
are present in the solution.
PROSECUTOR - How?
PRESIDENT - Stronger.
Vecchiotti C. - It depends on the substances that are
present in
solution, as well as the analyte that we go to seek.
Prosecutor - And also from the equipment.
Vecchiotti C. - And that transform into electric fact, in
small electrical surges.
PROSECUTOR - So so for ...
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
PROSECUTOR - About kit, before I forget,
she said before the kit used by Stefanoni ...
Now there are kits ...
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Vecchiotti C. - Various.
PROSECUTOR - ... more sensitive, diverse, etc., to
moment ... and also, you know, pointed out that expertise in
Doctor, I think, had not indicated that the kit had
used or indicated?
Vecchiotti C. - No, no, he noted, is the Identifiler kit,
he stated.
PROSECUTOR - The pointed, fine.
Vecchiotti C. - Yes, yes.
PROSECUTOR - There were also other kits at the time
trade?
Vecchiotti C. - In addition there was also the PowerPlex
all'Identifiler.
PROSECUTOR - What has the exact same function?
Vecchiotti C. - Changing only a few alleles, some
markers change, we have penta that are not
nell'Identifiler.
PROSECUTOR - Very well, then there were two short,
the Identifiler is what he used too?
Vecchiotti C. - What we use up all the time, yes.
Page 75
Prosecutor - But now there are even more sensitive kit
she said.
Vecchiotti C. - Certainly.
PROSECUTOR - Well, it should be 'then we'll get. The
Dr. always talk about ... back to the time of
repertazione because then possible contamination from
I wanted to get there after lab. Let's go back, then
Finzi take this knife and puts it in the envelope
Police Headquarters paper, unsealed. Then?
CONTI S. - In practice, therefore, put in the bag, so no
wait for it ...
PROSECUTOR - Excuse me professor, I'm sorry to interrupt
you.
CONTI S. - Tell me.
PROSECUTOR - We can, she can at least rule, is
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reasonable to assume that gloves be worn if they Finzi
clean home that morning? Or do we even
insinuate doubt that if you take them to ... that is, we
want
at least take it for granted that when he started
search were clean?
CONTI S. - It is assumed that they were clean.
PROSECUTOR - All right. You're welcome.
CONTI S. - Excuse me, to hang up, if I may repeat the
question
please?
PROSECUTOR - So we said, insertion into the
envelope was not sealed, then you have essentially
highlighted all the flaws ...
CONTI S. - Yes.
PROSECUTOR - ... that the proceedings of repertazione
would not it? Then the box ... a box of
agenda of cardboard? I do not remember, Balestra? Renato
Crossbow?
CONTI S. - Crossbow yes, I think so.
PROSECUTOR - Here, Renato Balestra, and then the
transfer to the police station and then transfer ...
CONTI S. - No.
PROSECUTOR - No?
CONTI S. - Then the passage, from what I've read, you Finzi
Armando: "She puts the knife found in this
envelope and paper similar to that of the seal, it is fair
to say
this, with scotch? " Armando Finzi and reports:
Page 76
"Yes, is not there on the spot" that has not sealed the
envelope on
place at the time of the seizure, but he has sealed in
Police Headquarters. In this I do that according to the
ENFSI protocols, reperted just a ...
Prosecutor - But the protocols are for ENFSI
inspections or for searches?
CONTI S. - Look, here we are trying ...
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PROSECUTOR - The nit-picking.
CONTI S. - ... Are obviously for the inspection but ...
PRESIDENT - Anyway, then it was analyzed the knife ...
CONTI S. - ... And then falls as a murder weapon, then
must take all necessary precautions to make a
seizure and ...
PROSECUTOR - Perfect, and protocols already
reported ...
CONTI S. - ... And the Protocol speaks of seal and not
reopen
more than in the laboratory finding.
PROSECUTOR - Okay, these are the rules ...
CONTI S. - So ... and it makes me finish?
PROSECUTOR - Yes, we have already mentioned, has already
said she
First, we take for granted all that ...
CONTI S. - No, she gives too much ...
PROSECUTOR - ... said Monday ...
CONTI S. - No, she gives too many things for granted I'm
sorry
Prosecutor.
THE PRESIDENT - No, let's assume that Finzi has violated all
the rules of the protocol ...
THE PRESIDENT - No, but she has to answer only the
questions.
CONTI S. - Okay.
PRESIDENT - If the prosecutor believes that it is
simply switch to a next question.
PROSECUTOR - Look professor, we assume that
Finzi, she does not know, has violated all the rules
protocol on inspections, I want to know in these
stages, from Sollecito's house the police station, where the
knife
you may be soiled DNA of Meredith?
CONTI S. - We can not say.
PROSECUTOR - What?
CONTI S. - We can, we can simply say ...
Page 77
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'we can not say.
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CONTI S. - ... That it has not been sealed may have
undergone
forms of contamination. And in most of these forms ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but contamination of the operators or
contamination of the victim?
CONTI S. - All, all, of any type.
PRESIDENT - He said no that he can not know.
PROSECUTOR - No one can know.
PRESIDENT - He said.
PROSECUTOR - I said well, I felt good.
CONTI S. - Yes.
PRESIDENT - Of course, I do not know how can you know?
PROSECUTOR - For negative controls then that
experts have not verified confirm this.
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'we're going to see them there controls
negative.
PROSECUTOR - You have this many exhibits were
taken, taken from Sollecito's house during the
same search?
CONTI S. - No. I can desumerli seeing the verbal, reading.
PROSECUTOR - 46 tracks 101. Knows how many tracks
found in it in the house I urge Dr. Stefanoni
found that DNA attributed to Meredith?
CONTI S. - No? No, no. At least ...
PROSECUTOR - How no?
CONTI S. - Wait a minute ...
PROSECUTOR - A part of the knife.
CONTI S. - Wait.
THE PRESIDENT - Do you know or do not know?
CONTI S. - No, we do not have elements to respond.
PRESIDENT - You your question was the knife and the
hook.
Prosecutor - But the expertise you have read it? No
expertise,
the report of Dr. Stefanoni did you read it? Not
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I think.
CONTI S. - A moment that we are simply looking for.
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'she says, questioned say ...
PROSECUTOR - I understand President, but they did
statements and decidedly heavy cutters in short, without
I have considered the elements, the only elements
that ...
Page 78
THE PRESIDENT - No, no, now we need a little 'clarify
upstream, their
they said they think there may have been
contamination but ...
PROSECUTOR - Of course, how can there be between the
earthquake
five minutes.
PRESIDENT - ... it is not one hundred percent sure that
there has been.
He said there may have been.
CONTI S. - I said it can not be excluded.
PRESIDENT - can not be excluded so ...
PROSECUTOR - Well 'in short. They said they are
totally unreliable results, it seems to me that they said
something more.
PRESIDENT - So also the examination lure him forever in this
scope in short, they did not say: "Yes it is contamination
one hundred per cent, "they said," We think they are not
reliable because there might have been contamination. "
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but I want to know how it could
there was, according to them.
PRESIDENT - There have also said no?
PROSECUTOR - So, we ask a question genericissima,
is accurate to say that one can speak of DNA contamination,
talk about the knife, Meredith's DNA on the blade of
knife only if part, in fact, in
same context in which the knife has been found,
reperted, bagged, brought to the police station and analyzed
there were other tracks with the presence of DNA of
Meredith?
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Because the contamination of Pinco Pallo or Inspector
Finzi that for another ...
PRESIDENT - I do not give a damn, of course.
PROSECUTOR - Well, do not give a damn.
THE PRESIDENT - That's for sure.
PROSECUTOR - It 'clear? I think it's clear. We
affects the contamination of Meredith.
PRESIDENT - Meredith, of course.
PROSECUTOR - Meredith Then how could contaminate
that blade? This is what I wish the experts I
because they said from the file, read everything, even
have read all the hearings of the GUP ...
PRESIDENT - But see here, sorry prosecutor, there is a
misunderstanding thoroughly that even I have tried to
clarify.
Page 79
According to them, there is insufficient evidence to be able
to say
that the DNA was that of Meredith on the blade, if I
understood ...
Voices in the background.PRESIDENT - ... the whole topic, the whole matter, not
I know if I say bad, so how can insist
Meredith have, a finding of Meredith have contaminated the
knife is outside of what they said because their
said: "You can not say that it is Meredith."
PROSECUTOR - No, excuse me President, I will not contradict
I am sure you will be missed ...
THE PRESIDENT - No, I'll ridica her, of course, if I did not
understand.
PROSECUTOR - Let's say that we have different views on
what they said the experts, because in step 5 of the
conclusions concerning the knife it says: "You can not
exclude ... "that were not following the procedures,
these international protocols, in short, Ohio,
Montana and so on "can not be excluded that the
result obtained from the sample B, the blade of the knife,
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may result from contamination phenomena occurring in
any stage of the repertazione and / or handling and / or
analytical processes carried out. " And in fact this is the
vexed question.
PRESIDENT - Yes, but they also say that, being too low
the number and so on ... that it is not reliable Meredith,
if I understand correctly.
CONTI S. - That's right.
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
PRESIDENT - You spiegatemelo better.
CONTI S. - Exactly.
PRESIDENT - So if ...
Prosecutor - But I seem to be two ...
PRESIDENT - ... according to them forever, because then
maybe ...
PROSECUTOR - Fine fine, fine. I seem
Two conclusions contradictory or because there is Meredith
and
then there is no problem of contamination ...
PRESIDENT - It was to set the exam in a right
proportion. According to them, the result is not reliable
refer to Meredith what has been found, then
sure how do they explain ... I mean it makes no sense
ask him where, how, when there may have been the
Page 80
contamination with Meredith's DNA.
PROSECUTOR - escludiamola Meanwhile, however, because they
have
also concluded on the contamination.
Vecchiotti C. - Chairman, President Excuse ...
PROSECUTOR - So if we can rule out I am ...
peaceful and happy.
Vecchiotti C. - President asked for a moment the word, if
you do not mind I'd like to read a point in a job
scientific, can I?
PRESIDENT - We hear, also to simplify things.
Vecchiotti C. - No, I do not know if we simplify it anyway
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I would keep reading it. "Issues in the forensic field: the
repertazione. The ability to successfully execute
DNA analysis will often depend on the quality of
repertazione and that of the conservation of the finds,
since extremely small amounts of DNA can be
used as evidence, greater attention to the problems
relating to contamination is required
identification, collection and preservation of evidence
DNA. Particular attention should be given to
so-called chain of custody, it refers to
historical records show that the collection,
custody, control, transfer, analysis, and
the elimination of the samples. In fact the main purpose
the chain of custody is to ensure that the
supposed proof is actually related to the alleged
crime and also to avoid contamination. "
PRESIDENT - Yes, but, sorry Dr. Vecchiotti ...
PROSECUTOR - see who speaks of contamination
President?
Vecchiotti C. - I want to ... I'm done.
PRESIDENT - The catch, the catch here.
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
PRESIDENT - This is a discourse different from what I do
I do and that the prosecutor, I said that, over
there, let's forget for a moment the contamination,
never mind the contamination, according to you what the
Dr. Stefanoni found on the blade of the knife can
be traced in some way to Meredith? Or not
because it could be the DNA of anyone ...
PROSECUTOR - Right, right.
PRESIDENT - ... even my say, because the elements are
so low that can not be identified in any way the
bearer of that DNA?
Page 81
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Vecchiotti C. - As has been interpreted, or is
going to interpret the peaks below the threshold
limit which is 50 RFU, the profile could belong to
Meredith but must be repeated and should be made evidence
Repeat ...
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'this is another matter.
Vecchiotti C. - ... That's another thing.
PRESIDENT - So ...
Vecchiotti C. - I can say, however, what? Since it
spoke, and there's a reason why I read this thing
contamination of the absolute necessity of the collection,
conservation and so on, because this is a job
which was released July 24, 2011 signed by Spinella, Aldo
Spinella we know to be of the Scientific Police, and
Giuseppe Novelli, who is a consultant and part of this is
express and where appropriate we will see also in relation
to the
low copy number, which is to be very careful to go
to identify below 0.5 - 1 nanogram.
PROSECUTOR - Undoubtedly.
Vecchiotti C. - Why interpretations can not be
reliable. And this is what ...
PROSECUTOR - Perfect, you have to be extra careful or
throw them in the trash?
Vecchiotti C. - You have to be extra careful because they
are not
reliable, so it must of course be followed by those who are
the recommendations of the international or otherwise
the recommendations of the scientific community
internationally, thus missing all ...
PROSECUTOR - Okay 'will tell Professor Novelli
what she wrote ...
Vecchiotti C. - Yes, I know perfectly well, I wanted to
bring to
knowledge but also the Court.
PROSECUTOR - We need to talk about this, let's talk
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of this thing, basically you say that it is not reliable
result because it was not possible to repeat the
amplification,
even had to make at least two or three right?
Vecchiotti C. - Even. Sure.
PROSECUTOR - Well ...
Vecchiotti C. - Even.
Page 82
PROSECUTOR - Yes, then the execution of two, three
amplifications, running multiple amplifications would
resulted in the division of the track, the sample?
Vecchiotti C. - It 'started with a sample of 50 microliters,
then certainly he should do the rates.
Prosecutor - But if you already had very little DNA at the
beginning
so much so that the fluorometer which does not specifically
mention the
weight gave too low, if it had divided into three parts, the
samples that would have given? Zero, sub-zero ... minus one?
Vecchiotti C. - But that does not matter, it does not matter
Dr. Handy.
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but she has to answer Professor
the questions.
Vecchiotti C. - Tell me.
PROSECUTOR - We understood what the
recommendations, I want to know what would have been
the outcome, because he sees she is at university ...
Vecchiotti C. - Of course.
PROSECUTOR - ... Dr. Stefanoni is the Police
Scientific ...
Vecchiotti C. - Certainly.
PROSECUTOR - ... purposes of the biologists
Scientific Police is not making academic exercises but
find the killers and perpetrators of serious crimes ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - But what is the question
President?
Let us questions, suggestions do not do this,
are considerations.
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PROSECUTOR - The question is this, provided this ... no
considerations are not ...
PRESIDENT - Take the question prosecutor.
PROSECUTOR - That said, if the sample had been
divided into three each sample thus obtained what
would have given it already has given a complete profile,
but with
low peaks?
Vecchiotti C. - But how do we know if the missing data
crucial quantitation? Excuse me, we are always there,
we do not know how much DNA there were, I read ...
Prosecutor - But there was so much?
Vecchiotti C. - I read, I make an assessment
rear ...
PROSECUTOR - Exactly.
Page 83
Vecchiotti C. - ... Going to observe the electropherogram,
but
that's not how we proceed, Dr. Handy, we proceed in
Another way, that you go first to quantify because if the
quantity is too low, you do not do it at all, you
can also stop.
PROSECUTOR - Ma .. should be '...
Vecchiotti C. - Yes it is.
PROSECUTOR - Ah, there you can also ... of course you can
also
stop.
Vecchiotti C. - But of course, there are currents
thought ...
PROSECUTOR - Thank goodness.
Vecchiotti C. - ... There is also that below 500 picograms
stops and those who try and then I would like to specify ...
Prosecutor - But if ...
Vecchiotti C. - ... Let me finish, it's a small thing, not
that I
I'm at university and I only, I only work from
academic point of view ...
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'we do not go into much controversy
because ...
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Vecchiotti C. - No it should be clear why we work
also for ...
PROSECUTOR - If you want to talk or dell'Olgiata
Cosenza talk about it right away.
Vecchiotti C. - ...Prosecutor's Office and to the Court
Assize.
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but we also know what he
In fact, if you want to talk about it.
Vecchiotti C. - We can also talk about it, if you want, I do
not
problems.
PROSECUTOR - What he did and what did not
fact.
Voices in the background.PRESIDENT - Go ahead.
PROSECUTOR - So the amount that is
used ... then, it is accurate to say, or rather, she has
been able to
check the records of the trial at its disposal if the
track on the knife was visible or not?
Vecchiotti C. - It was not visible, you say.
PROSECUTOR - It was not visible.
Page 84
Vecchiotti C. - No trace was visible.
PROSECUTOR - No trace was visible. And 'exact
say that the quantity of the track that was invisible,
so in short, that is the buffer that has been rubbed on
the lining of the knife but Dr. Stefanoni not
nor did he know if there was or if there was no DNA nor
As there was but it definitely was not a chiazzone ...
Vecchiotti C. - No.
PROSECUTOR - Here, then part of the track used
for the quantification can then be used to
amplification? Yes or no? This is yes or no.
Vecchiotti C. - No, yes or no, then you must repeat the
question
well because it is not the correct question.
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PROSECUTOR - Look, she has followed the same procedure,
She first made the diagnosis of generic and specific
blood ...
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
PROSECUTOR - So, we also talk about the diagnosis
specific and generic blood ...
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
PROSECUTOR - The generic and specific diagnosis of blood
serves detection, identification of the
own blood?
Vecchiotti C. - No, it is a generic diagnosis should be
followed by other
investigation of a specific type.
PROSECUTOR - All right, fine. The quantity of
track, you tell me how should I say, trace, DNA,
of biological material used to make the diagnosis
Blood then can be used to extract the profile
DNA?
Vecchiotti C. - So, things are different because when
we have ...
PROSECUTOR - No, the same. The same rate.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - (Off microphone).
PRESIDENT - Let her finish, let her talk, sorry if they are
different things ...
Prosecutor - But I'm not ... but the answer is yes or no
President.
PRESIDENT - There is explaining ...
Vecchiotti C. - No, the answer is not yes or no ...
PRESIDENT - Let her speak, says Dr. Vecchiotti.
Vecchiotti C. - The answer, sorry President, can not be yes
or not because before taking the track, at least I
Page 85
done so, there is no written advice on
"Tetramethylbenzidine" is not specified if it was made a
withdrawal and was later cut a fragment
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of buffer and was used in making the benzidine
part, which I used instead a strip that I
simply placed on the alleged track, I say
presumed because you can not see where I then made the
buffering, so it can be a yes or a no. I
used this, then when I went to dab I do not
I had taken anything, I simply supported the
result was negative, I did the infill and the
buffering I run everything else. I do not know how it is
previously been performed instead, we speak of TMB
because you can do it in another way, I could have
do before buffing it, take a piece of buffer
as I did then for cytologic examination, put it in a
test tube, in a saturated solution of benzidine acid
acetic acid, add two drops of hydrogen peroxide that
would, if there was any blood perossodasi
would have tacked color and what it means to take a
little bit more material from the original infill,
this is a procedure which has not been described, at least
I have not read it, maybe I have not played so
was ...
PROSECUTOR - This was not the question, and then the
answer ...
THE PRESIDENT - No, he said that you can not say yes or no,
he
respond with a second one that would be the procedure
correct.
PROSECUTOR - Excuse me, but if any ... even if there is
dispersion of DNA even when two, according to the course
thesis of the experts, even when the two bodies are not in
contact but skim fly because the DNA is deposited
the dust, and so on, when she rubbed for
make the generic and specific diagnosis of blood, rubbed
the track is not reasonable to assume that part
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of any DNA present there has been tacked on to the
strip and then ...
Vecchiotti C. - I did not wipe, I just
supported.
PROSECUTOR - Endorsed is the same, is the same thing.
CONTI S. - No.
Page 86
PROSECUTOR - So you do not support the simple
DNA transfer.
Vecchiotti C. - Are you telling me that we could be there
DNA ... is a clarification that I am, you're telling me
there there
could be DNA that has been omitted.
PROSECUTOR - No because she's DNA, even small
hand, the DNA found him not?
Vecchiotti C. - There is in the DNA, so it remained.
PROSECUTOR - 0.00 ... yes but maybe it was more, I say ...
Vecchiotti C. - It could also be ... yeah so what? Yes.
PROSECUTOR - So what? But that is ... Dr. I do not
respond well.
PRESIDENT - So, to ask the next question, go
forward prosecutor.
Voices in the background.PROSECUTOR - So having supported, having made the
diagnosis of blood by placing the strip that
colors, such as when doing the test ... should be ', let
lose.
Vecchiotti C. - It 's a generic test.
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but I ask one more thing ...
Vecchiotti C. - So I did not understand.
PROSECUTOR - ... you can attack, there may be
dispersion of DNA, ie it can remain a little 'DNA
stuck in this strip?
Vecchiotti C. - Of course.
PROSECUTOR - So let's get back to the main question, to
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is the part that the doctor who did the
diagnosis of blood on the knife?
Vecchiotti C. - The diagnosis of blood has made sure,
diagnosis
generic diagnosis of the case, yes of course.
PROSECUTOR - Fine ...
Vecchiotti C. - I do not know if he used the Combur Test or
the other
method that I have said, is not specified.
PROSECUTOR - I do not know but I do not care, I will tell
her.
Okay and maybe a little 'DNA has already lost there, then
second later you would have to divide the
sample into two or three parts. He would not
irreversibly lost the track and the possibility
that came out from that track out some profile?
Page 87
Vecchiotti C. - He would have to quantify it, I repeat,
before
She speaks of a separation, a division of the eluate,
I always say that it had to be quantified ...
PROSECUTOR - Well, he used the fluorometer ...
Vecchiotti C. - ... And quantification has never been made,
even when it was concentrated 20, 22, 23 microliters,
I do not think that there is written on ...
PROSECUTOR - Excuse me she said she used the
Dr. Stefanoni fluorometer for quantifying,
now has not quantified?
Vecchiotti C. - The quantification is too low, that does not
give any
value.
PROSECUTOR - Very well, then ... is too low.
Voices in the background.PROSECUTOR - E 'value.
Vecchiotti C. - And what value is sorry?
Voices in the background.Vecchiotti C. - What is value?
PROSECUTOR - It is not zero.
Vecchiotti C. - It 'a value below the determination,
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can also be zero.
PROSECUTOR - Can also be 199.
Vecchiotti C. - But it can also be zero.
Prosecutor - But it can be ...
Vecchiotti C. - Then, between zero and 199, but we will not
know
ever.
Prosecutor - But is it right ... but she must respond,
then it can be even 199 yes or no?
Vecchiotti C. - Can be 199.
PROSECUTOR - Then came this profile or not?
Vecchiotti C. - It 'came out.
PROSECUTOR - The quantification, we repeat once
time, it is essential to obtain a profile? That is, if not
you just quantify, even if you do not use the
scales of gardeners but do not use anything, you go
directly to the next step, amplification was nothing,
voidable, unusable, non-existent? As the sets?
Vecchiotti C. - It 's crucial phase of quantification.
PROSECUTOR - I understand, but if she gets out a profile and
is
out, you have to rip that profile? So?
Vecchiotti C. - For as it was meant, in my opinion.
Page 88
Prosecutor - And how was it done, and we say it like it is
been done?
Vecchiotti C. - It 's been done in this way, it was taken a
too low, which is why she is no quantification
in the most favorable which is 199 and I have to say that
A track in the fluorometer showed 80 picograms,
then at least ...
PROSECUTOR - 0.4 I am told, not 80.
Vecchiotti C. - No, because next door there are 80 picograms
0:08 and are written so that 80 picograms, is shown here,
not that I'm saying, those were the microgram then
transformed into nanograms ...
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PROSECUTOR - Professor ask me to ask you ...
Vecchiotti C. - Here it is, see?
PROSECUTOR - No Excuse ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - Face finish.
CONTI S. - And no, it has to end now.
Vecchiotti C. - However, if she reads on page 56 is
reported, so it is not 0.4 but is 0.08 which is reported in
nanograms per microliter.
PROSECUTOR - Here.
Vecchiotti C. - And this has been so transformed.
PROSECUTOR - What is the difference between the detected ...
Vecchiotti C. - And there is a difference of 0.08 nanograms
are
80 picograms then I believe that the fluorometer
Dr. Stefanoni was able to identify 80
picograms. If so, why then has used 10
microliters and then 800 picograms which is within the range
that
dall'Identifiler is shown, from the kit that used,
I have to believe that is not what it was 199 nanograms
B on the track but certainly below the 80
picograms, he found her at below 80. Then
I assume that it should at least be lower.
PROSECUTOR - They ask me to ask you, because I do this
question not gliel'avrei ever done because I do not know the
answer, what is the difference between calculated and
observed?
Vecchiotti C. - What does it mean calculated and recorded?
It makes
a calculation, is detected a certain value and they have
transformed into nanograms to micrograms.
Voices in the background.Vecchiotti C. - I have calculated them, they have turned to
Page 89
micrograms to nanograms.
PRESIDENT - However, these are considerations that will make
Dr. Stefanoni later, without which we complicate the
life is not it?
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PROSECUTOR - Okay, okay.
THE PRESIDENT - What do you think? It is one and a half,
that your intentions?
PROSECUTOR - I still I will have approximately the same.
PRESIDENT - But I, I asked you not to duplicate because
we take into account that after you feel your consultants
part, so that maybe you also understand better why
are the branch say ...
PROSECUTOR - I know but one thing are the opinions of
consultants and account are the answers of the experts, she
understands well.
PRESIDENT - Yes we know this, but the invitation is always
valid to specific questions, leaving defensive
maybe some technical aspect subsequently consultants
biased. Adjourn for an hour. (Suspension).
It is recognized that at 13:30 the hearing is adjourned.
TO RECOVERYPRESIDENT - 14:55 At the hearing resumes. Please
Public Prosecutor.
PROSECUTOR - To run out, so we had reached the
knife, now move on to the hook. So, let's start
with the inspection and then with pads that have been made
for inspection. Professor Conti said, and she did
see, we want to review the still image of the glove
Stefanoni that she believes the dirt?
CONTI S. - If you allow me a second doctor, who so ...
ready. Want maximized?
PROSECUTOR - Yes there it indicates the point where it would
be
dirty?
CONTI S. - This.
PROSECUTOR - Perfect. So, he knows when he wore
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the Stefanoni those gloves?
CONTI S. - I was not present so I can not know.
Prosecutor - But is the film?
CONTI S. - There is no change of gloves in movies.
PROSECUTOR - There are breaks in the movies?
CONTI S. - I have not tested this myself, because being more
People can not know if the people entering or leaving,
Page 90
change gloves or not.
PROSECUTOR - No, no, I say if there are any breaks in the
movies.
CONTI S. - In some parts there are interruptions
movie.
PROSECUTOR - There are breaks.
CONTI S. - Yes of course. And let's start by saying that
some parts
where do description of certain time, etc., with
minutes and seconds only served to us for pointing
the part of the movie.
PROSECUTOR - So, you know that day, the day on which
the hook was reperted many other artifacts were
repertati?
CONTI S. - No, I do not know how many other artifacts were
repertati
But ...
PROSECUTOR - It is important to know?
CONTI S. - No, it is important to know at least what
relates to an inspection because the question was on the
hook and
then I looked, in fact we have, I'm sorry
expression, we examined only what was
inherent in the activity of the hook and the possibility of
contamination in the 46 days he had to stay
land the hook.
PROSECUTOR - No, she has examined all the inspection
and we will also see how and when and why, we will explain
it.
So, having examined the entire survey thought that
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had also verified how many finds were ...
CONTI S. - No.
PROSECUTOR - Because the question was about
contamination.
CONTI S. - Of course.
PROSECUTOR - The possibility of contamination.
CONTI S. - Yes.
PROSECUTOR - So it is important to know how many other
artifacts have been unearthed that day and in general in
Home?
CONTI S. - No, it becomes irrelevant because I have to check
only and only if it is relative, contamination, then
exhibit determined not to other findings.
PROSECUTOR - Well, then that particular finding as
may have been contaminated?
Page 91
CONTI S. - This is not ... I certainly can not know how it
was
contaminated, I just know that glove ...
PROSECUTOR - What has been contaminated.
CONTI S. - No wait, that that glove is dirty and therefore
not
comply with the anti-contamination procedures. Among other
things, I
Excuse me for interrupting doctor, among other things, as
you well
know the DNA is invisible and therefore I can not see it.
PROSECUTOR - So it is unnecessary to show that the dirt is
san ... the glove, it may not be those of DNA
spots there, if they are spots.
CONTI S. - But it could also be seen and considered that the
glove would have to be cleaned ...
PROSECUTOR - To be sure, everything is possible teacher.
Vecchiotti C. - ... And changed the glove, if he is dirty
means that glove that does not comply with the protocols and
procedures dictated.
PROSECUTOR - Perfect, the general rules we have
understand why you reported from nine and a half
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morning at four o'clock in the afternoon the other hearing,
now we see in practice how Sollecito's DNA can
be arrived on the bra clasp because it is
That's what interests you in a criminal trial. Then I said
then those spots may not contain DNA, she
do not know how many artifacts were taken ...
CONTI S. - No.
PROSECUTOR - ... how many tracks have been taken from the
house, the former home of Meredith.
CONTI S. - No course.
PROSECUTOR - total.
CONTI S. - No, not ...
PROSECUTOR - He knows all the tracks found and analyzed
in the house of Meredith how much, how many it was found
Attributed to Raffaele Sollecito's DNA?
CONTI S. - The answer to Professor Vecchiotti because it has
the list.
Vecchiotti C. - I can not find the minutes do you have it?
CONTI S. - Do not we?
Vecchiotti C. - Here it is.
CONTI S. - There he goes. One moment, please answer you
too ...
Vecchiotti C. - No, no, you answer.
Page 92
CONTI S. - Okay. So ... So Meredith 110 tracks ...
PROSECUTOR - No, no, Meredith is obvious, it was full of
Meredith's DNA, Sollecito, talk about the hook.
CONTI S. - Reminder ... one is.
Prosecutor - And then the hook, right?
CONTI S. - Yeah right.
PROSECUTOR - So chances are, it is possible that those
gloves were contaminated with Sollecito's DNA?
CONTI S. - Everything is possible.
PROSECUTOR - Also that the Martians arrive between two
minutes ...
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CONTI S. - That I'm sorry ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - President's opposition to this
point ...
Prosecutor - And no, the answer of an expert can not
be "anything is possible" President.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - Chairman of the opposition can
do? The
My objection is the following: I believe that we have
avoided making opposition to leave the maximum freedom
However, it is not even possible to set up an interview with
continuous feedback, critiques, sometimes really excessive,
there is a phase which is the summation and our case, in
which each of us will make the comments, even the hardest,
the most
harsh, at this stage actually this type of continuous
comment, criticism continues to believe is not permissible,
there
are questions and answers.
PRESIDENT - The problem is always that, my thought, which
certain topics are part of the discussion, now let's stay
as part of the expert, ask for clarification on the
expertise, the fact that then ... will tell you herself in
discussion, he will say "was found only with the hook
Sollecito's DNA ... "I think this can be said in
discussion I mean, no?
PROSECUTOR - Well, 'I would say no because ...
PRESIDENT - Okay feel, let's move on.
PROSECUTOR - I'm commenting on the photographs and
surveys that have been carried out at the last hearing by
experts, I mean, if they indicate what they do
imagine for a certain purpose which then is to lay
the conclusions that we have plenty of beds. It
then to refute those conclusions I have to do certain
President questions why ...
Page 93
PRESIDENT - Okay, let's move on.
Prosecutor - And the answer can not be titrated to an expert
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be "anything is possible" is unclear? Which is also the
Doomsday or the Flood in two minutes is
possible.
CONTI S. - No. ..
PRESIDENT - Wait wait, because "everything is possible" I
I think he meant that because the hook is
been there, people have stepped on, came in, went out, he
done ... there may have been some other place a
DNA ...
PROSECUTOR - The Reminder?
PRESIDENT - ... and having moved there mashing and moving,
the atmosphere, I do not know ... Perhaps this is the
meaning of the
everything is possible.
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but that's why I'm doing this
questions.
PRESIDENT - Well, then let's move on.
PROSECUTOR - How many tracks containing DNA
Sollecito were found throughout the house, that is, in all
the house is not in Meredith's room in the whole house. The
answer is only on the hook, right?
CONTI S. - Excuse me, allow me to doctor? This would be fine
response as if I had the proof, the
demonstration that has been done throughout the sampling
the house, in all the floors of the house, in all
corridors, then I might give this answer, that if there
is nothing in those samples then I can give this
answer or even all the fixings, anywhere, but on
this ... and also on the mat, but since that's why I
I did not like because it is obvious that I have to give
this type of
response.
PROSECUTOR - For any thing that what you mean?
CONTI S. - Let's start with ...
PROSECUTOR - Millimeter by millimeter?
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CONTI S. - Excuse me, huh, she has ruled out that there may
be DNA
Sollecito in all the samples that have been made
then his conclusion is that DNA appeared there, I
since the house was frequented by Mr Sollecito then
I have ...
Page 94
PROSECUTOR - From what? Do you know how?
CONTI S. - No, I do not know how but also ...
Prosecutor - And he knows if he also frequented the room
Meredith?
CONTI S. - This not here, I do not know, I can not know ...
Prosecutor - And well 'but, you know if ...
CONTI S. - Excuse me, makes me finish speaking?
PROSECUTOR - No, because then I want to know if he knows ...
CONTI S. - And no, and ... eh ... Dr. eh ...
PRESIDENT - Okay, but anyway let's move on ...
PROSECUTOR - No, no no no President ...
PRESIDENT - Let's go on with the questions.
PROSECUTOR - No, no president, no.
PRESIDENT - Let's go on with the questions, and answer
questions.
PROSECUTOR - He said, Professor Conti has just
Sollecito said he knows who frequented the house does not
know
However, if attending Meredith's room, then I want to
to know why the information one knows why and the other does
not
knows. It seems to me legitimate.
Voices in the background.CONTI S. - Why do anyway ...
PRESIDENT - To me it seems logical anyway ...
CONTI S. - ... Is attended with Amanda Knox, and then
frequented the house.
PROSECUTOR - It 'a deduction her.
CONTI S. - Please?
PROSECUTOR - It 'a deduction her, he also knows how
know each other?
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CONTI S. - No.
PROSECUTOR - How many times ...
CONTI S. - Wait, if I'm not mistaken I think a week
who began dating, if I'm not mistaken.
PROSECUTOR - Yes a week.
CONTI S. - That's it.
PROSECUTOR - How many times Raffaele Sollecito entered
in that house?
THE PRESIDENT - No, we can not go on like this.
CONTI S. - I do not have a register of entries and exits.
PRESIDENT - I'm sorry, sorry, you can not go on like this,
you can not, stick with the expertise, her face questions
specific expertise on, then repeat will be the subject of
discussion says there was or there was not, as it does to
Page 95
know the expert, stick to the facts ...
PROSECUTOR - If you do not know the answer ...
PRESIDENT - ... in the report does not say "I urge
attended the house and then the DNA could be in
hook "there is written.
Prosecutor - But he said now, the President said
right now.
THE PRESIDENT - No, he said now in its provocation
Public Prosecutor. Excuse me, huh, then you comply with the
objective elements of skill, or else here really
that these ends are recognized ...
CONTI S. - And yes, because well ...
PRESIDENT - ask him explanations on their findings,
PROSECUTOR - In fact, I wanted to know who intends to
"Repertazioni throughout the house" because repertazioni in
Throughout the house there were, in all the rooms of the
house.
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'and tell him, I will tell you then.
CONTI S. - No.
PRESIDENT - The right question is: there is that there is
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Sollecito's DNA was in some other artifact? No.
Prosecutor - And the answer is no.
PRESIDENT - It ends there, after the rest argue her.
PROSECUTOR - All right, all right. You know what were the
results of the analysis of the sock that was found under the
carpet along with the hook?
CONTI S. - No, it was inherent in the survey, the questions
of
expertise.
PROSECUTOR - Okay, as far as ... I wanted
ending with the inspection. She has repeatedly stressed that
there were two people with a sweater and jeans wearing
only boots and gloves, you know who I am?
CONTI S. - No, because you do not know them, personally I
was not in the
place of inspection.
PROSECUTOR - He did not even sensed by
conversations?
CONTI S. - No absolutely not.
PROSECUTOR - Okay, then I'll tell you, are the two
medical examiners.
CONTI S. - Very well.
PROSECUTOR - Sa intervened when the two doctors
Legal?
CONTI S. - I think ...
Page 96
PROSECUTOR - Before or after Stefanoni?
CONTI S. - No, I have no way to answer this question.
PROSECUTOR - Well, 'oh my God there would be no report of
Dr. Lalli acts, indeed there is ...
CONTI S. - But I was not required to obtain the relationship
or to assess the relationship of Dr. Lalli because it was
anyway ...
Prosecutor - But there is no reference was made, however, to
these two subjects.
CONTI S. - Please?
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PROSECUTOR - You made reference to these two
subjects in jeans and a sweater no?
CONTI S. - No, I'm sorry doctor, our task was
simply, without making any kind of comment, except
this where I said "this is dirty for us," for
the rest was only a description of what was
happening from movies, period.
PROSECUTOR - Perfect, and in fact I'm asking
clarification on what she projected.
CONTI S. - Exactly.
PROSECUTOR - neither more nor less. So, I want to explain
because when projected points 1:44:36, 1:44:38 she
states that he feels Dr. Stefanoni said: "He has the
long nails and well-groomed "?
CONTI S. - Simply because it was, we felt that it was
important to immediately levy of DNA under
nail.
Prosecutor - But it appears that not been done?
CONTI S. - No, they were made later by what I
results.
Prosecutor - And he knows how he responded Lalli, ie the
coroner who was even closer? To that question
Dr. Stefanoni, Lalli how he responded?
CONTI S. - Absolutely not was something that was inherent in
the
survey to be carried out.
PROSECUTOR - No, sorry, it was the next frame to
what you have reported here.
CONTI S. - No, I avoid ... if you tell me, it may as well
tell me.
PROSECUTOR - What Lalli said: "He's got cured but
did not have it long. "
CONTI S. - So what?
Prosecutor - And then that would not be useful
probably ...
Page 97
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CONTI S. - This is a ...
PROSECUTOR - Not so ...
CONTI S. - This is a consideration that has made Dr.
Lalli, I do not agree on this because it would be useful
instead make a withdrawal under the nail in the immediacy of
facts.
Prosecutor - But it was done, she knows when it was
done?
CONTI S. - No, I do not know when it was made.
Prosecutor - And then how can you say that has not been
done in a timely manner?
CONTI S. - Be ', it was not done right away because I have
seen, from the
movie that has not been done and have been put in the hands
poor Meredith's body directly into envelopes
plastic.
PROSECUTOR - Exactly were enveloped likely
because of that.
CONTI S. - Exactly.
PROSECUTOR - All right. Can you tell me why instead has
highlighted, showing the point exactly 1:52:51
this, carry what you wrote "You feel the
Dr. Stefanoni, referring to the wound on the neck: I
margins would be jagged, while the other person
touches the edge and partially within the
wound "that is always Dr. Lalli, who is the coroner
in short, that he was there on purpose. How did, say,
considered ...
CONTI S. - Stopped say this still image?
PROSECUTOR - No, I thought ... yes have to point out
that the doctor said, commented: "The margins
would be jagged? ", the question mark
I add, she did not put it there.
CONTI S. - Okay, because the sampling is if I am not
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Wrong on Meredith's body, and was only made
solely on the larger wound, and not on others
unghiatura signs that were present on the body.
PROSECUTOR - So what? That is, the edges ...
CONTI S. - And so it would be ...
Prosecutor - But the margins of the wound were bigger.
CONTI S. - Indeed, indeed, it was just a show
something about the larger wound on the
sampling that has been done on the larger wound.
Page 98
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but that is the impact on the questions
that
were put by the Court?
CONTI S. - What ... not, in practice, the sample had to be
done ...
Prosecutor - But sampling of what?
CONTI S. - Even signs of unghiatura that were below the
neck, not just the signs of major injury.
PROSECUTOR - I do not remember that there are signs of
unghiatura but ...
CONTI S. - And what's more the fact that Dr. Lalli has
touched
the wound before ...
PROSECUTOR - Where it turns out, sorry professor, where
shows that there are signs of unghiatura? It is clear from
expertise of Dr. Lalli?
CONTI S. - There is a photographic survey.
PROSECUTOR - No, but it is clear from the expertise of Dr.
Lalli?
CONTI S. - No Excuse ...
PROSECUTOR - What she says they have not read?
CONTI S. - Excuse me, excuse me, is clear from the
photographic surveys that
acts are and are reported also, if I am not mistaken,
in court by the lawyer Maresca.
PROSECUTOR - So what? And he shows these signs of
unghiatura that ...
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CONTI S. - No I have not listed.
PROSECUTOR - ... that there is no look.
CONTI S. - No, I have not reported because ...
PROSECUTOR - ... that does not have the palate nobody ...
CONTI S. - Because I do not ...
PROSECUTOR - E 'then a novelty among other things,
medico-legal aspect, it is true that she makes the
coroner ...
CONTI S. - That's it.
PRESIDENT - We can also conclude that it was a record
superfluous the jagged wound.
CONTI S. - Even.
PROSECUTOR - All right.
PRESIDENT - We can conclude so.
PROSECUTOR - Absolutely, I am satisfied. So ...
a person with only his shoes, the other person in jeans,
always coroners, now let's go to the point of 18:24:49
first inspection, it wants to find?
Page 99
CONTI S. - Tell me which corresponds well to.
PROSECUTOR - 18:24:49.
CONTI S. - Yes if you tell me which is the ...
PROSECUTOR - Oh, excuse me. "At the request
video operator of the Scientific Police if you
were to film the cigarette butts in the kitchen, from the
dialogue with another agent forensics is: E '
absurd, it's absurd, I have criticized,
disorganization beyond belief in every way. "
CONTI S. - That's right.
PROSECUTOR - I want to take?
CONTI S. - Of course.
PROSECUTOR - 18:24:49. Here is still too much
dialogue I've read ... where we are here knows?
CONTI S. - The floor below, the lower floor of house
Via della Pergola.
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PROSECUTOR - It can be considered a crime scene
the floor below? That is another house.
CONTI S. - No it's not another house.
PROSECUTOR - not the plan below ...
CONTI S. - No part ...
PROSECUTOR - Ah, there she was?
CONTI S. - Please?
Prosecutor - But you've been there?
CONTI S. - I pulled, I pulled out the photographs of the
always
Scientific and you can also see, I pulled the images
satellite.
PROSECUTOR - So what?
CONTI S. - And then I saw that it is a two-storey house
which gives
directly above an area with several trees say, in
which falls from a ladder that goes down.
PROSECUTOR - That two floors are connected to each other?
CONTI S. - No two floors are independent because I believe
they are
I did not see that there is an internal staircase.
PROSECUTOR - So it's another apartment, is another
house.
CONTI S. - It 's another home that is part of the same
building
part, which are of two ... two ...
PROSECUTOR - is part of the same building for sure.
CONTI S. - Exactly.
PROSECUTOR - Same Condo say. Era
Page 100
inhabited by the same people?
CONTI S. - I think not, I have no way to respond to
this question.
PROSECUTOR - So it can be technically defined
crime scene, another house, another apartment?
CONTI S. - So in the ... in the very early, very early in
this because we are in the very early hours ...
Prosecutor - But she could not comment on what
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thought or did not think of the Scientific ...
CONTI S. - And, no, and no, if she asks me a specific
question ...
PRESIDENT - Let him answer, let him answer Audience
Ministry.
PROSECUTOR - Okay.
PRESIDENT - He was explaining why he considers to be a
place ...
CONTI S. - So if I have to do a survey of inspection
action, a frozen throughout the area, is what has not been
I did it because I have not seen, I have not seen those
strips
red that normally surround the entire perimeter more
external if not then, nor even the perimeter more
that is internal to the edge of the house, so much so that
even the
Movies give us reason for this. We want to continue on
this movie doctor so that at least you can hear the
comment directly to the Scientific Police?
PROSECUTOR - No, before I do another question.
CONTI S. - That's it.
PROSECUTOR - I live on the third floor in an apartment
building
where ...
PRESIDENT - Okay 'let's hear the movie so that even the
Jurors realize.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - One moment, one moment
please ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - (Off microphone).
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but a second ... but I'm controesaminando
I'll decide when I can decide when you continue
movie?
THE PRESIDENT - No real questions then I'll admit, if
anything, the
jurors while we're at ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes I understand but ...
PRESIDENT - ... let's see ...
Page 101
PROSECUTOR - Okay 'let's show.
PRESIDENT - We make them see the movie.
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PROSECUTOR - Okay.
At this point, the movie is projected forensics.
Voices in the background.CONTI S. - Do I have to go back because ...
THE PRESIDENT - No go ahead, forget it ...
CONTI S. - And no, because there was a sentence in which ...
I
reported.
PRESIDENT - Yes it should be 'but I saw that the prosecutor
the
considers it unnecessary ...
PROSECUTOR - I read it, I think it faithfully.
CONTI S. - Very well.
PRESIDENT - Yes, yes, we lose time and nothing else, let's
move on.
PROSECUTOR - The first was just wondering, if there is a
Murder on the fifth floor of a six-storey building, where
the
There are twelve apartments, because we say for two six-
story,
two apartments per floor, and so on, all the
perimetratura, all the rules that he described to her
last hearing must be applied to all
apartments of the building?
CONTI S. - They must be applied to the stable course
stable has its own entrance that is common to all, the
stable
will have a lift or stairs that are common to all, and
so you need a moment to give a containment least
general ...
PROSECUTOR - Outside.
CONTI S. - Exactly, otherwise the tenants of the same
stable or friends or acquaintances of the same building or
other
people will continue to go back and forth from the outside
towards the inside and from the inside outwards.
Prosecutor - And in the other apartments?
CONTI S. - Inside the apartments of course not, it remains
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the second containment area that is relative
interested in the apartment at the scene of the crime or the
place
Page 102
event.
PROSECUTOR - We agree in saying that this is not
the apartment scene of the crime?
CONTI S. - Excuse me, but then the rhetorical question that
one gets is
we have gone on to do?
PROSECUTOR - What does this mean?
CONTI S. - Excuse me, is a logical consequence.
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'let's move on.
PROSECUTOR - I can also answer, I answer
President? I know ...
THE PRESIDENT - No, no, you do not need.
Prosecutor - But I do not think ...
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'a little' controversy does not hurt, go
forward.
PROSECUTOR - It traces have been found useful in
that other apartment? In that other apartment.
CONTI S. - I do not know if you have ... I have no way to
answer this question.
PROSECUTOR - Excuse me?
CONTI S. - I do not have elements to answer this question.
PROSECUTOR - Then answer the doctor, there is in
Stefanoni's report and so I guess that is
the report of Stefanoni.
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'we know that we too then right?
I mean ...
Voices in the background.PROSECUTOR - Exactly. There was no question that
said check, examine all the movies
also visit places other than the scene of the crime.
"An agent from outside the house trying to break through
with
repeated kicking a door without any protection if
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no gloves at the end of attempts breaks with a kick
violent glass that shatters inward. "
16:28:45 She knows who she is?
CONTI S. - No, but I project him so at least we know now who
is.
PROSECUTOR - It 's an agent of the Flying Squad.
CONTI S. - Very well, expect him projectile.
Prosecutor - And do you know what is the door that broke
down?
CONTI S. - Also in the apartment below.
PROSECUTOR - Perfect, no question about this
point.
Page 103
CONTI S. - Do we want it, I can present it to him if he
wants to.
THE PRESIDENT - No, no, you do not need.
PROSECUTOR - Look, I know it all too
reporters.
PRESIDENT - I do not need.
CONTI S. - Very well.
PROSECUTOR - Abundantly. So over the
investigations carried out by the Scientific Police
hook when it was analyzed in relation to other
findings?
Vecchiotti C. - A moment that I try. So finding SAL 165 ...
page 21, when he was examined I do not think that there is
written ... by benzidine, sample code ... again, the
extraction before December 29 '07.
PROSECUTOR - Yes.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - Yes, but there are more?
Vecchiotti C. - A not here, I do not know if there are more,
but I
reported that there was work in progress where they are
the following information, along with the code 48896,
alleged
saliva, description of the alleged cell exfoliation B hooks,
50 amount, location 271/F1, there is no analysis performed
written anything before extraction date December 29 '07.
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PROSECUTOR - Yes, December 29, and he knows who was
the last finding has been found in which the DNA of
Sollecito?
Vecchiotti C. - No.
PROSECUTOR - The last specimen analyzed?
Vecchiotti C. - No.
Prosecutor - And on what date was analyzed? It is the
same question that I did before the knife in
substance.
Vecchiotti C. - No I do not know.
PROSECUTOR - On 17 December 2007, and then 12 days
before.
Vecchiotti C. - Well.
PROSECUTOR - So, do you think it is long enough
to avoid contamination of the laboratory, the
that for 12 days no finding has been analyzed,
was not analyzed any findings containing DNA
Sollecito?
Vecchiotti C. - They are long enough.
PROSECUTOR - has examined the negative controls
Page 104
with regard to this finding?
Vecchiotti C. - They were not attached.
PROSECUTOR - A what?
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - We continue to say, sorry ...
Vecchiotti C. - Negative controls were not attached.
PROSECUTOR - What they were not attached?
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - Chairman, if I give the word ...
Vecchiotti C. - In the electropherograms.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - ... if they are negative controls
of this
morning, we still do not find it huh.
PROSECUTOR - As of this morning?
PRESIDENT - Yes we checked there at the hearing of
reference ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - Also Chairman us but we do not
have them
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found.
THE PRESIDENT - That was October 8 as I understand it.
Vecchiotti C. - Me, I electropherograms that were me
posted on October 8, there are ...
PROSECUTOR - Now pull out the minutes of
delivery. But even if you found them did not hear
the need to require it to Stefanoni?
Vecchiotti C. - I asked twice to Dr. Stefanoni
electropherograms assuming that they would
entered.
PROSECUTOR - What would incorporate electropherograms
related to negative samples?
Vecchiotti C. - No, I would ... electropherograms in which
there
were the samples, there was a negative control, because
should not be there?
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but when he saw that there were no ...
CONTI S. - We have requested another time.
PROSECUTOR - Because then they will have seen that there
were no
is not it?
Vecchiotti C. - It 's obvious it is that she had to attach
them, because
the range required? Should not be required.
PROSECUTOR - The appraiser is her doctor.
Vecchiotti C. - Beware not to be required, then, must be
shown
from the part.
PROSECUTOR - This is also an international rule,
Page 105
universally recognized?
Vecchiotti C. - What should be included negative controls,
yes.
PROSECUTOR - Okay, 'that should be included once
you forgot to include them but there are ...
CONTI S. - We have been asked twice.
PROSECUTOR - ... is a good rule to an expert
ask them ...
CONTI S. - In fact, we have asked them twice.
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PROSECUTOR - ... or a good rule, and watch them or have
pretend it does not exist to be able to ...
THE PRESIDENT - No should be ', no this is unacceptable ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - (Off microphone).
PRESIDENT - This is unacceptable prosecutor, this is
unacceptable.
CONTI S. - This is just unacceptable.
THE PRESIDENT - No, I actually said rather whether these
Negative controls are ...
CONTI S. - It 's a shame ... this is a shame ...
PRESIDENT - ... products or products before, let's see now,
may have been a misunderstanding ...
ACCOUNTS s. - Give them to have asked twice, we asked them.
PRESIDENT - a misunderstanding ... not having them delivered
to the
experts, see if there are Let's get them out.
Vecchiotti C. - But are not attached in the report
technical investigation forensic genetics officially
delivered.
PRESIDENT - Yes, but we admit that it was an oversight, a
what ... if there are, now ...
PROSECUTOR - It was not a technical expert doctor.
Vecchiotti C. - A piece of advice?
PROSECUTOR - Not. I feel worse.
Vecchiotti C. - What was that? Nothing?
Voices in the background.Vecchiotti C. - The counseling.
PROSECUTOR - The report of Dr. Stefanoni ...
Vecchiotti C. - I spoke to the report of consule ...
PROSECUTOR - ... it is not a technical expert. When
Police involved a murder takes place ...
PRESIDENT - Yes we know, we know.
Prosecutor - who calls themselves ... and
automatically Scientific Police.
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Page 106
PRESIDENT - Yes, but we know very well.
PROSECUTOR - I know, but it seems that the doctor did not
know.
Vecchiotti C. - No, no, it seems to me that there is written
...
PRESIDENT - Okay 'also called attorney before then are
inaccuracies ...
Vecchiotti C. - No, no, sorry eh ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes it is clear, but to be coroner
I mean ...
Vecchiotti C. - Excuse me, but the RTG, then it's written
report
Genetic engineering surveys, then I want to say that it is
not
I'm saying ...
PROSECUTOR - It 's definitely not a technique but
counseling.
Vecchiotti C. - So what do you want? It is a technical
report.
PROSECUTOR - Okay, perfect.
PRESIDENT - But we know, we know very well.
PROSECUTOR - The important thing is that he understood the
President.
Vecchiotti C. - So, the relationship ... is also technique.
PROSECUTOR - The controls are here, I can show them to him
the experts with the negative controls President?
PRESIDENT - Well, let's see ... so maybe check
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - The deposited there?
Voices in the background. 8:23DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - Li also we would like to see the
President.
PRESIDENT - So we acknowledge that the prosecution exhibits
controls
negative related to genetic investigations on
Vecchiotti C. - I am of the negative controls that are
related
Genetic investigations on the two bodies of crime, for
courtesy ...
CONTI S. - These are the negative controls.
Vecchiotti C. - So I see here "negative controls" can ...
PRESIDENT - Must speak ... more
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Vecchiotti C. - So I, I, of the negative controls, the
thing, the explanation of which I wish I had because I did
not
a lot of ... Negative controls what? It says near the
Page 107
number which are related to Exhibit 36 and 165?
PRESIDENT - This I must say she's got under her eyes.
Vecchiotti C. - No, but you can not see well, sorry huh.
CHAIRMAN - Maybe turn on the light because ...
Vecchiotti C. - You do not see just because otherwise ...
PROSECUTOR - seems to me to be clear.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - We do not want them there ...
they could
see also Defenders us?
PRESIDENT - Yes, yes, yes definitely.
Vecchiotti C. - One is 896 ...
CONTI S. - (Off microphone). 9:12
PRESIDENT - items are considered part of the appraisal
then acquired for the purpose of expertise and your advisors
will certainly examine it.
Vecchiotti C. - 197 ...
CONTI S. - 475 ...
Vecchiotti C. - I can not ...
CONTI S. - (Off microphone). 9:36
Vecchiotti C. - We read the numbers that frankly do not
we can compare them with the numbers that were given.
There is 47329, there must be somewhere watching, if not
are there ...
Voices in the background.Vecchiotti C. - So here it reads "ID818 negative control"
are these? ID818?
PRESIDENT - I guess you need time to examine them,
is not it?
Vecchiotti C. - No, I read 818, 805 I believe are the
numbers, I
so now I'm paying you for help, the sample? Of
different samples, right?
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PROSECUTOR - (Off microphone).
Vecchiotti C. - No, but you know what I sample because the
code I have for example the track A is 329, 330, 331 and
I can not ...
PRESIDENT - It will be the case that the next riferirete
hearing, you will have to look short, you will need to
examine
I suppose.
Vecchiotti C. - 732, there are, however, are controls that
had not been attached ever.
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - are deposited.
PRESIDENT - I riferirete at the next hearing, the
today certainly do not end up short, and even when they are
Page 108
consultants part you need to be present.
PROSECUTOR - Okay, we can go ahead then.
PRESIDENT - Yes go ahead, yes.
PROSECUTOR - So, going forward ... in addition to
so-called cross-contamination, as you have called
the other time, including the exhibits and then the exchange
of DNA rather
he also explained how today could be the
contamination opening two tubes of two different objects
in the same session at the same time,
Having said that, we said that December 17 and then 12
days before the last item was analyzed with DNA
Sollecito were analyzed before the clasp,
so in addition to this it seems to me that cross-
contamination of
figure can not be taken place, she brings in expertise that
alleles in the relic traced to Sollecito hook
are not evidence because there was sampled dust
in the room. Is that right?
Vecchiotti C. - Yes, where the dust ... the place where it
was
found the clip and the pad underneath which was
was found the hook, I do not think that there are
made of DNA samples and controls on these parts,
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at least I do not have it on record.
Prosecutor - And the sock that was under the carpet
together with the hook you know if it was the championship?
Vecchiotti C. - No.
PROSECUTOR - Then I answer: yes it was
championship? She knows what are the results? Obviously not,
was not found nothing or at least nothing useful,
definitely not Sollecito.
Vecchiotti C. - And the mat?
Prosecutor - And the mat but no she is not ...
Vecchiotti C. - No, I would like to know if the mat was
championship, that's all, it was a question.
PROSECUTOR - Well, if it was ... no, if it was
championship mat which is a nice tappetone and if there was
state, there was found Sollecito's DNA, according to her
that DNA on the mat would have been the result of a
contamination or would have been proof that Sollecito was
inside the room?
Vecchiotti C. - So, I seemed to have also specified a
thing, or is ...
Prosecutor - But I can answer sorry doctor, she
Page 109
before answering the question, and then, after answering the
My question is all the specifications you want.
Vecchiotti C. - But what response you want? A yes or a no,
Excuse? I repeat the question that I have not figured out
probably.
PROSECUTOR - So, if it was the reperted
mat and the mat that was inside the room
Meredith, you were found with traces of Sollecito's DNA,
do you think those tracks would have to be
considered to be the result of contamination or evidence
that
Reminder, indeed a further proof that Sollecito was
that room?
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DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - should specify when? 46 days
after, I'll precise.
PROSECUTOR - 46 days after together ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - Well, 46 days later.
PROSECUTOR - Of course, but there was never Sollecito, nor
before or after, or during.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - (Off microphone).
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'these are considerations
his discussion, we feel now ...
Vecchiotti C. - No, I'm ...
PRESIDENT - It 'a technical opinion who asked, that's right.
Vecchiotti C. - So, I already stated, I would like now
also explained it again that is not indicative of the fact
that Sollecito
was there in that place, at that time, could be
Sollecito's DNA and also of others, if I am not mistaken,
because the hook was not found only
Sollecito ...
PROSECUTOR - In fact, we talk about it later, but responds
to
this specific question.
Vecchiotti C. - Yes we talk about it later, then it means
that it can
also be ...
PRESIDENT - Answer the question.
Vecchiotti C. - It may have even been transported from other
rooms or a secondary transfer, there are people type
the Karajani who have studied the secondary transfer and
tertiary DNA from object to another.
PROSECUTOR - All right. In the rooms, many artifacts
were taken in the other rooms, in all other
rooms of the house, how many samples?
Page 110
Vecchiotti C. - I have not counted.
PRESIDENT - Excuse But even this was not the topic of
expertise.
PROSECUTOR - Yes but president to say just
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send hypothetical, but very suggestive, that the DNA of
Sollecito could be flown from one room to another is
must at least if you do not have proof but at least some
of serious evidence that Sollecito's DNA was there in the
other
rooms, if we have not even this figure as ever
experts scruple and dare those conclusions? It is clear
the concept?
PRESIDENT - The experts were daring to simply say
that there might have been a transmission of DNA ...
Prosecutor - But where? From where?
Vecchiotti C. - Let us assume that ... admit that ...
PRESIDENT - She will tell you that in the discussion:
"Gentlemen of the
Court, were repertati tot elements throughout the house,
as you can ... "because then I could say
Sollecito because if it was there in that room, but only on
left hook ...
CONTI S. - Bravo.
Voices in the background.PRESIDENT - So it's a double-edged ...
PROSECUTOR - Because it is very expert.
PRESIDENT - It 'argument cuts both ways.
PROSECUTOR - Because it is not so easy to leave DNA.
Voices in the background.PRESIDENT - If not waste time and nothing else.
Prosecutor - And in fact, it is not so simple
leaving the DNA from somewhere, it's not that settles ...
PRESIDENT - I do not understand sorry.
PROSECUTOR - It is not so simple in fact leave DNA and
is even less simple than that DNA is found.
PRESIDENT - Yes, of course, but this is precisely the
subject of
discussion, let us keep to their elaborate then she
ask your adviser ...
PROSECUTOR - Well 'but it is a dangerous conclusion because
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potentially they could say that, I mean even
I theoretically passing from above, from the road above ...
Vecchiotti C. - Exactly, exactly.
Page 111
PROSECUTOR - I could leave DNA?
Vecchiotti C. - It certainly leaves him.
PROSECUTOR - Only on the hook.
CONTI S. - Of course.
Vecchiotti C. - She certainly leaves the DNA, if I go
examination surely ...
PROSECUTOR - Only on the hook.
Vecchiotti C. - Be ', though he was close to the hook is
possible.
PROSECUTOR - Okay, okay. So, therefore, we
said that the negative controls, the controls
contamination and then examine them, in fact they will
examine
and then ... We talked of the powder, the other time she has
said that it is widely known that the dust can
be the presence of human genetic material. It takes
refer to such work, widely known means
in short, there are many who say this thing works ...
Vecchiotti C. - Yes, Toothman and others in 2008, there is a
wide
bibliography that shows this.
PROSECUTOR - Toothman and others in 2008.
Vecchiotti C. - I have here the job if she wants it and I
can
Also read the entire bibliography.
PROSECUTOR - A part of this work, which is the only one that
My advisors have found?
CONTI S. - No longer works, there is a bibliography.
Vecchiotti C. - No, there are also more jobs and they are
all
reported, he also reported that work are shown in
bibliography so it is not so.
PROSECUTOR - All right, and that this work has results
brought? In the sense that it has never happened that the
dust is
extracted a complete genetic profile attributed to
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someone?
Vecchiotti C. - Of course it's happened and I can tell also
of a
case ...
PROSECUTOR - In these works?
Vecchiotti C. - I can tell also of a case ...
PROSECUTOR - In work that you mentioned I say.
Vecchiotti C. - That depends on the quantity of DNA that
located.
Page 112
PROSECUTOR - Oh yeah.
Vecchiotti C. - And 'course, if there is a good amount you
have
a complete profile, if the quantity is low or degraded
you have a full profile.
Prosecutor - And if the quantity is so much more
the result of contamination anyway?
Vecchiotti C. - Of course, it depends on how the quantity
DNA. What do you mean sorry if it is the result of
contamination? Could you repeat the question?
PROSECUTOR - We're talking about contamination.
Vecchiotti C. - So, contamination, we are saying that if
I'm in the pad 10 nanograms or 3 nanograms of my
DNA, 3 nanograms of his DNA and another person 2
nanograms 1 nanogram 0.5, I will find 3 profiles, if any
I find them are five of five and will be complete.
PROSECUTOR - No this is not ... thank you, this is not
what ...
Vecchiotti C. - So I do not understand.
PROSECUTOR - The study you mentioned is of Toothman
could, of course, for the purposes of demonstrating
ascertain the
contamination, it is clear that if I withdraw dust
and I find the DNA of the murderer who was lying on the
half an hour to rape the victim on the ground, it is obvious
that I
much DNA in the dust, but that is not the work of
Toothman, is something else, I examine the powder as I look
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other artifacts that tell me that there's been the
murderess,
that the murderess is he, if I find so much DNA, it seems to
me that
talking about something different. Then, the work of which
Toothman
What does it say? They found, to prove the contamination
of course, the complete profiles of people who do not
had to be there but were there to contamination?
This is the question President.
Vecchiotti C. - Then, they also found people who do not
were necessarily there but whose DNA was transferred
for reasons of ventilation for example.
PROSECUTOR - Ventilation.
Vecchiotti C. - The ventilation accelerated yes,
handling. Its for example.
PROSECUTOR - Well, if I do so for problems
Page 113
ventilation DNA spreads a little 'everywhere, right?
Vecchiotti C. - Well 'may possibly yes, since
she is talking about and she emits droplets that do not
you see so she emits DNA.
PROSECUTOR - Exactly, that is, even if it mirassi the
I could probably hook there to peck only the
hook.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - But all these comments ...
PROSECUTOR - Comments, is not a question ...
CONTI S. - 22:12
PROSECUTOR - If I even ...
PRESIDENT - I do not see anything wrong with that, but let's
move on
with questions.
PROSECUTOR - That is likely?
PRESIDENT - Because I repeat, we are always at the limit
between the questions
and discussion, see?
PROSECUTOR - E 'or is likely paradox, this is
I say President. It should be 'fine for ventilation,
but it is likely that position only on a metal hook
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for another, that is neither porous ...
CONTI S. - 22:38
PROSECUTOR - ... neither smooth nor short, easily
reached, it is likely?
Vecchiotti C. - Of course.
PROSECUTOR - Anything is possible. But given that everything
is
possible, it is likely?
Vecchiotti C. - It 's likely to go there?
PROSECUTOR - Only on the hook.
Vecchiotti C. - Only on the hook and there is nothing else
to
other ... obviously yes, you can, why not?
PROSECUTOR - In fact everything is possible ...
PRESIDENT - I have not heard the answer sorry.
PROSECUTOR - ... we said, but I asked if it is
likely.
Vecchiotti C. - And 'possible.
PRESIDENT - It 's possible?
PROSECUTOR - Of course it is possible, of course it is
possible but probable?
Voices in the background.PRESIDENT - Likely what does it mean? Likely ... which means
likely to say?
Page 114
PROSECUTOR - Likely, it is likely?
PRESIDENT - Probable is likely to be different.
PROSECUTOR - Okay, it's likely?
PRESIDENT - Probably already is an element ...
Vecchiotti C. - It 's likely.
PROSECUTOR - It 's likely that you just lay on the hook
and that there is not anywhere else?
Vecchiotti C. - What will it rests on the hook, so it is
likely.
PROSECUTOR - Very well, and it is likely that it
rests only on the two hooks, not the piece of cloth?
Vecchiotti C. - It 's just this weird thing, if we
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watch, exactly as he had said before the President,
but there? At that point?
PROSECUTOR - Oh, right there at that point?
Vecchiotti C. - Probably there was, I do not know, I assume
that
had a smooth surface so it is likely ...
PROSECUTOR - The hook.
Vecchiotti C. - The hook if I'm not mistaken, bra
In short, I have no idea what it might be, the surface is
not
is smooth?
PROSECUTOR - If you do not intend to smooth brozzolosa yes.
Vecchiotti C. - That's exactly it, then it is likely.
PROSECUTOR - Absolutely smooth.
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'we found that ...
PROSECUTOR - What is likely, very well.
PRESIDENT - According to their ...
Vecchiotti C. - Very likely.
PRESIDENT - Very likely, let's move on.
Voices in the background.PROSECUTOR - So, we said so, I also ask the
doctor, if you know how many samples have been
carried out in the house.
CONTI S. - We have already responded.
PROSECUTOR - No, I have not responded. In other words,
Professor
Conti did not remember, if you remember the
Professor.
Vecchiotti C. - No.
PROSECUTOR - 85, in none of these DNA of Sollecito.
Vecchiotti C. - In whose house? Meredith?
PROSECUTOR - Of course, the murder house, other houses
I do not think ...
Page 115
Vecchiotti C. - So here we had really done a ...
PROSECUTOR - In the bedroom, I apologize in the chamber,
in the house because there are many more.
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Vecchiotti C. - No, because we had made a calculation, 110
tracks
of 58 numbers repertazione there was Meredith, Meredith
4 ...
but we did not ...
PROSECUTOR - I beg your pardon, because I wanted to say in
room.
Vecchiotti C. - No I do not know.
PROSECUTOR - 85. So, let's move is the latest installment of
questions, that no final tranche of questions, not on the
hook
we have not finished ...
Vecchiotti C. - For heaven's sake.
PROSECUTOR - Absolutely. Then, we found that
it is likely that the DNA is laid only on the hook for
adventure, coming no one knows whence, so that's fine.
Now let's talk for a moment of the profile, the profile is
was extracted from the track on the hook. So she
states that Stefanoni was wrong because it did not
indicated ... that is, or rather because he said that in
that
mixed, in that there was only a trace of DNA and Meredith
Sollecito.
Vecchiotti C. - So, let's do this, wait, excuse me a
moment I would take ... what is it?
CONTI S. - (Off microphone).
Vecchiotti C. - So, this is the electropherogram which was
attached to the report, these are ... then these will
We, look, separated according to the color blue because
so you would see maybe a little 'better and to see each peak
is
assigned an allelic ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but I do not ...
Vecchiotti C. - Excuse me.
PROSECUTOR - I still have not asked the question.
Vecchiotti C. - Really? I understood ... please. I thought
was the question.
PROSECUTOR - No, I mean it is accurate to say that it did
not believe
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correct analysis because Stefanoni said, she
Page 116
he says, that he said ... what it says in the report?
What would the Stefanoni said that there are only
profiles of Meredith and Sollecito.
Vecchiotti C. - So, in my opinion ...
PROSECUTOR - Meanwhile, let's stop here, then we get there.
PRESIDENT - Yes or no, yes or no in the meantime. Yes this
is a question
by yes or no.
Vecchiotti C. - Then I said that there are not, there is no
only the profile ...
PRESIDENT - not what you said ...
Vecchiotti C. - Meredith ... and ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but she is true or not true that
said that it was the Stefanoni to say that there were only
Meredith and Sollecito? Only bold, wrote it well
in bold.
Vecchiotti C. - So when I wrote in bold, there was a
reason ...
THE PRESIDENT - No, no, sorry ...
Vecchiotti C. - So ... say yes then yes ...
PRESIDENT - Excuse me doctor otherwise we lose time
unnecessarily,
her, the question is this: is it true that she has expertise
in the
said that it was a mistake of Dr. Stefanoni
believing that there was only the DNA of Sollecito and
Meredith?
Vecchiotti C. - It 's been ...
PRESIDENT - Just yes or no.
Vecchiotti C. - So, I said yes.
PRESIDENT - I said, not much but was able to say only
yes.
Vecchiotti C. - It is not easy in this matter sometimes
only respond with a yes or no.
PROSECUTOR - Here, I wanted to figure out which part of the
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report of Dr. Stefanoni, the Stefanoni
says ...
CONTI S. - Well, and then we are at the same point ...
PROSECUTOR - ... that in that mixture, that is found in the
DNA
there is only on the hook and Sollecito Meredith, Meredith
and only
Sollecito.
CONTI S. - So ...
PROSECUTOR - Help me, page 202 and following.
Page 117
Vecchiotti C. - 202?
PROSECUTOR - 202 and following of the report of
Dr. Stefanoni, what does Dr. Stefanoni?
CONTI S. - No, it is not.
Vecchiotti C. - No, no, then look ...
PROSECUTOR - says something very different from what
that you said or says exactly the same thing.
Vecchiotti C. - Then following the 202 and I've reported on
page
113 ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes.
Vecchiotti C. - ... This guy: "He gave a result of
compatibility, ie the genetic profile shown in Table
165-1 is compatible with the hypothesis of mixture of
substances
biological, presumably flaking cells
belonging to Raffaele Sollecito and Meredith Kercher. "
Page 113 conclusions.
PROSECUTOR - No conclusions, I told page
202.
Vecchiotti C. - Then the page ... these are what I have
reported, I have not at this time the report of the
Dr. Stefanoni, the more likely you are referring
where: "From the electrophoretic pattern shows that in most
markers is shown a number of peaks higher than 2, the
CT has correctly formulated the hypothesis be a
genetic profile, Table 165-1, resulting from the mixture of
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biological substances belonging to at least two individuals
of
which at least one male. " Is this guess
her ...
PROSECUTOR - Exactly.
Vecchiotti C. - ... That I have given in relation ...
CONTI S. - There is page 202.
PROSECUTOR - not only said but said at least one of
male.
Vecchiotti C. - And I brought him back later.
PROSECUTOR - All right, however, has put in bold the
"Only."
Vecchiotti C. - So, this is what I found on page
113 ...
PROSECUTOR - Okay 'agree, the important thing is that we are
agree, or rather I ask the question, I do it in
formula of the application: Dr. Stefanoni believes that
I have seen too that there were other contributors or
Page 118
believes that he has not seen?
Vecchiotti C. - Really did not write it then I think
that ...
PROSECUTOR - considers But when he says that "at least one
of
male "meaning?
Vecchiotti C. - "At least one male" but did the Y and
was not only one, he could mend ...
PROSECUTOR - How?
Vecchiotti C. - No, he should correct himself and say, "more
than
one male ", when the Y ...
PROSECUTOR - More than one, fine.
Vecchiotti C. - The Y shows that it is more than one in my
opinion.
PROSECUTOR - Okay, another contributor that she
and reported that the doctor did not name, that has
identified but not named, you know the reasons why
has not appointed the third contributor?
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Vecchiotti C. - Certainly not. Why?
PROSECUTOR - You can obtain a profile useful for
the comparison?
Vecchiotti C. - Talk of autosomal?
PROSECUTOR - Excuse me?
Vecchiotti C. - Talk of autosomal?
PROSECUTOR - Yes.
Vecchiotti C. - Of the autosomal or Y, I made several
evidence ...
PROSECUTOR - Of the autosomes.
Vecchiotti C. - Of the autosomal, I've done several tests,
it
can get different genotypes, not belonging to a
another but also to more people.
PROSECUTOR - A more people then there's the profile
Sollecito plus other useful profiles for comparison.
Vecchiotti C. - So, there are some profiles that are useful
for
comparison and others are not useful for comparison
comparison because of what? Comparison means
that I have to have at least one other point of reference, I
I can rebuild a genotype but I have to say if it is useful
have at least someone else.
Prosecutor - And sure, but useful for comparison ...
Vecchiotti C. - And of course, we urge since there was
Sollecito then was rebuilt.
Page 119
PROSECUTOR - No, useful for comparing means
this, as for the fingerprints, when you go to withdraw
fingerprints in a case against unknown ...
CONTI S. - But compare ...
PROSECUTOR - ... the Scientific or RIS tells me: "I
useful for comparing "we keep aside until here
there will be ...
Vecchiotti C. - Some yes, then ...
PROSECUTOR - ... there will not be suspected by
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compare.
Vecchiotti C. - So in some autosomal genotypes
can be identified, the Y can be identified
subjects easier.
PROSECUTOR - Okay, but we have no other
suspected because there is no other element so ...
Well, the presence of other contributors exclude the
presence
Sollecito?
Vecchiotti C. - So, if we are going to look at all the
possible genotypes ... she always wants to answer yes or no?
PRESIDENT - Yes or no, yes or no.
PROSECUTOR - Well, 'I'd say ...
PRESIDENT - The question is actually clear.
Voices in the background.Vecchiotti C. - It 's clear, of course.
PROSECUTOR - Also because ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - No, Mr. President, but I do on
this
a formal opposition has never heard that
in front of a question can be asked to the witness or
consultant how they answer yes or no, we are in a
matter so technical ...
PRESIDENT - Yes .. in the meantime ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - ... must be able to explain
why.
PROSECUTOR - Absolutely forever.
PRESIDENT - ... while yes or no and then explain why yes or
why not this for sure, but in the meantime for us laymen can
be useful to be told yes or no, as a first response, and
then an explanation.
Vecchiotti C. - So ... I repeated the question, so the
answer
yes or no after that I may, I would like to comment.
PROSECUTOR - The presence in the mixed track, as well as
Meredith that we take for granted?
Page 120
Vecchiotti C. - Yes we take it for granted because there is
a nice
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profile.
PROSECUTOR - Very well, other contributors male
exclude the presence of Sollecito?
Vecchiotti C. - Do not exclude it.
PROSECUTOR - O comes out a full profile
Sollecito?
Vecchiotti C. - So I have to say that does not exclude,
however, and here
I must make a clarification at this point I would like to
make it
because regardless of genotype I Sollecito
made a reconstruction without my knowing it, and this
I say truly, for example, consider this ... perhaps
you should turn off the light ...
PROSECUTOR - Even Dr. Stefanoni.
Vecchiotti C. - If I'm going to look at the track ... a
marker
simple look, at this point ... Here it is, then
take the second marker which is the D21S11, sorry I
I have written ... then we take the simplest because
there are four alleles, okay? Why do I say four
alleles? Because the 29 who had been assessed a stutter
by Dr. Stefanoni really is not a stutter
because according to the definition, or whether it must
precede
allele immediately following ...
Voices in the background.CONTI S. - Here is this perfect.
Vecchiotti C. - Well, this guy who had been considered a
stutter then a peak that has four bases less, a peak
abnormal then the four bases in less than allele
main it would be this, must have two
features, to precede the main allele and
here in fact precedes it and to have a height lower than the
15 percent.
Prosecutor - But 15 per cent of its cross-section to
second?
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Vecchiotti C. - Well 'everywhere are talking about 15
percent, from
Society of Forensic Genetics to everyone even to ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes, yes, around 15 per cent.
Page 121
Vecchiotti C. - No no, I mean, the Commission and the German
so on are talking about 15 percent, so I want to say, then
Depending on which part is one can say more or less but it
is not
well, the thing is 15 percent ...
Prosecutor - And which side is she? This is what I would
like to
understand which way she is.
Vecchiotti C. - I'm not anywhere, I rely on
exactly ...
PROSECUTOR - So do not tell me which way is up.
Vecchiotti C. - ... What he says, including what it says
Professor Novelli.
PROSECUTOR - Then do not comment on which side
However, I am sorry, because I am on the side ...
Vecchiotti C. - What comments?
PROSECUTOR - ... of the state.
Vecchiotti C. - I'm just ...
PROSECUTOR - I'm not anywhere.
Vecchiotti C. - I'm not making any kind of comment.
PRESIDENT - He is not making comments.
Vecchiotti C. - I did not look.
PRESIDENT - Go ahead Doctor.
PROSECUTOR - Which side 8:38
CONTI S. - 8:40
Vecchiotti C. - Anyway, okay, for example, that this was
has evaluated a stutter, so the calculation is done, that
is,
divides the height of the minor peak to the peak height
greater, next door, and must be less than 15 percent.
In this case, for example, is of 15.58 percent and then
this is not a stutter but it is an allele. If I did not know
nothing of the people who make it up, I did not know the
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genotype and no one told me please me
Reconstruct the genotype? I tell him the contributor
a higher 30 33.2, are the two highest because another
characteristic of the genotypes is that must be balanced,
should have roughly the same height this means.
And by doing the calculation between 29 and 32.2 have these
height very balanced because the height has to be
greater than 0.6 and in this case is 0.83 then I could
say that the major contributor is 30 and 32.2
minor contributor 29 is 32.2, and this is a reconstruction
I have done no matter what. Certainly the
Meredith is greater, then I went to check in
Page 122
Actually what was the genotype of Sollecito and was 32.2
33.2, if I take this system Sollecito is excluded. After
But what we can from this, how then can you do with
all the others, which I have already done so, you can
reconstruct the various genotypes or both I can think of
that
There may also be other contributors, such as 29, 30,
we have already said 29 32.2 29 33.2, you make all the
various
all of the assumptions and calculations.
PROSECUTOR - Perfect. So that's why ...
Vecchiotti C. - And this is one.
PROSECUTOR - ... now you have described, this
electropherogram is incompatible with the profile, with the
presence of the profile Sollecito?
Vecchiotti C. - So, if I have to judge as it is
incompatible.
PROSECUTOR - It 'compatible.
Vecchiotti C. - It 'incompatible. 29 is an allele, all
reasoning done so far ...
PROSECUTOR - Then he said something different ...
Vecchiotti C. - ... I said that if we look at the
balance of the four alleles, see that they are balanced
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two by two, there is a 30 and a 29 33.2 32.2, are perfectly
balanced, balancing ... without knowing ...
PROSECUTOR - Okay, 'look, I think the Judges popular
do not understand anything of what you're saying ...
CONTI S. - Okay 'but asked, I'll say.
Vecchiotti C. - We will try to explain to the Judges
popular,
I want to say that yes you can see Four Peaks then this
means as has been rightly pointed out that there are already
at least two ... There are two contributors ...
PROSECUTOR - I do not see more than really peaks.
Vecchiotti C. - ... A major contributor, which is what has
leave a greater quantity of DNA and which are those with
other peaks.
PROSECUTOR - It 'Meredith, yes.
Vecchiotti C. - And then there's another minor contributor
who has
let the smaller peaks. Is that clear? So, what do you do,
you go to see if the minor contributor is very little,
which is the association most likely this is what you do,
then the two major peaks seems clear to me that you can
Page 123
associate, however I have already done the calculation
exceed the
0.90 point, after which you must see if the different peaks
of contributors to make ... you have to do various tests to
know how and how many may be because there may be
various combinations. In this case, in the most simple
the combination is 32.2 29 because there are two alleles,
because
have the same height and because they fall in the range that
is considered optimal. That is not 0.6 but 0.83
then you certainly approaching. After that I can
ask, but this track can be made, can have
also several contributors? Why then is this that you want to
know. Then I have to ...
PROSECUTOR - No, I really I only asked if it was
compatible with Sollecito and ...
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Vecchiotti C. - So if I look at the track as it is ...
PROSECUTOR - ... and what do you mean by compatibility.
Vecchiotti C. - So if I look at the track, this, this
marker as it is then, we can go to all the
others, as I say, this is the rule. This is.
PROSECUTOR - What do you mean by compatibility and
incompatibility?
Vecchiotti C. - Compatibility? Or incompatible ... this is
incompatible because it has the alleles that are different
from
that the suspect, whoever he is short, ie, a 29
32.2 must pay the other person, to the person,
suspect, the victim, the person we like
reference point.
Prosecutor - And what are those which are incompatible? Why
then we must make it clear to the judges ...
Vecchiotti C. - What are those?
CONTI S. - But he explained until now.
PROSECUTOR - Incompatible.
Vecchiotti C. - Then you look at it, she had asked me this a
What if there was one, I say this one will
could even be excluded. Then, the other can be
to do all of the associations, in the course
various associations that are made can exit ...
PROSECUTOR - That couples? Couples.
Vecchiotti C. - Yes, but see for example ...
PROSECUTOR - The Association would be couples.
Vecchiotti C. - ... Couples, when we go to look at,
look here we still have CSF1PO which is the last to
Page 124
example, if we were to look I should say that the
12 12 is a major contributor, the contributor is less
a 10 11, but nothing prevents that I can think also that
there
other contributors may be the largest of which remains
always 12 and which can be a 10 and a 12 11 12.
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PROSECUTOR - So there are several possible
interpretations.
Vecchiotti C. - Certainly.
Prosecutor - And in all these interpretations Sollecito
is incompatible.
Vecchiotti C. - No I did not say ...
PROSECUTOR - Oh no? A place.
Voices in the background.PROSECUTOR - No no, I got it wrong. Why then the
next question would be, and the Y chromosome?
Vecchiotti C. - We also have on the Y chromosome, excuse me
now ...
PROSECUTOR - Given that, at least on the Y chromosome seems
to me
you have concluded with a judgment of compatibility with
to urge it? For the Y haplotype, is not it?
Vecchiotti C. - So ...
Prosecutor - And I do not respond.
Vecchiotti C. - Wait a minute, I'm just looking
doctor, not spazientisca.
PROSECUTOR - Yes I know but I have not asked ... no,
I'm very tired because I stand for too long.
CONTI S. - So are we.
PROSECUTOR - I have not asked to explain the
electropherograms, let's say I wanted to explain a little
'more
down to earth, you understand?
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
CONTI S. - Well, 'no we can not do this on an explanation
down to earth.
Vecchiotti C. - It is not always so easy.
Voices in the background.PRESIDENT - On the other hand we have for this, because you
do not
understand us. If you do not tell us.
PROSECUTOR - Exactly.
Vecchiotti C. - Exactly. So I do not want to see
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Page 125
electropherograms of the Y? Where more than Sollecito's
profile
There are those of at least two other people?
PROSECUTOR - Beyond the profile of Sollecito, okay,
then? In other words, it's a, I mean, like saying a
conclusion
which is corroborated or refuted Y haplotype analysis that
is, what is the Y haplotype? That is what characterizes
males. Professor Excuse ...
Vecchiotti C. - So ... yes.
PROSECUTOR - I was saying is refuted or corroborated by the
analysis
haplotype Y?
Vecchiotti C. - They are two different things, you see, now
I say a
thing, that is that matters most are the autosomal now
to evaluate the Y haplotype needs to be done ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but do you explain why, because I know it
the Court does not know it, I know because I have explained
in
first grade, so I studied a lot, I study three years.
Vecchiotti C. - I am very happy so it's useless to talk
about ...
PROSECUTOR - So why is it important haplotype?
Vecchiotti C. - ... It is useless to speak of difference
Statistical presume.
PROSECUTOR - Of course, with Professor Novelli it
I will speak.
Vecchiotti C. - Absolutely. Then, the profile of Sollecito
there is in that track together ...
PRESIDENT - 17:35
PROSECUTOR - Professor Excuse ... President has
patience, she may not even acknowledge my questions but
when I do the me and she implicitly admits
because I would not rule out that the witness me
answered. I've already asked two questions, I have already
made two
questions: the examination sull'aplotipo Y that is typical
of
males contradicted or comforted the presence of Sollecito
found in that mixture on the hook? And I was not
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answered. Then I said: he wants to explain to the Court why
analysis on the genotype is more important than
sull'aplotipo?
Vecchiotti C. - So ...
Page 126
PROSECUTOR - So, comforted or ...
PRESIDENT - Let's start from the last.
Vecchiotti C. - No, no, look also the first because he
wanted to know
if comforted or less.
PROSECUTOR - Here.
Vecchiotti C. - And 'this seems to me or not?
PROSECUTOR - Comforting or deny?
Vecchiotti C. - Do not disappoint.
PROSECUTOR - The presence?
Vecchiotti C. - Do not disappoint.
PROSECUTOR - not disappoint.
Vecchiotti C. - Okay?
PRESIDENT - Moving on to the second ...
PROSECUTOR - So comforting. The second question: why
examination of the genotype is more important haplotype? Why
examination haplotype is not about one person, but ...
CONTI S. - And then he told her, and she asks him to do?
Feel all
PROSECUTOR - Be ', is Professor, I want to see
that are as good as the teacher.
PRESIDENT - I want to say to us. Okay, now we
known ...
CONTI S. - Will you proceed? Processing as well. Beautiful
view of a
thing.
PROSECUTOR - No, I wanted to let you know the teacher is
that if I ask a question it is because they already know the
answer.
PRESIDENT - I do not doubt that she knows that. Let us go
forward with
the next question.
Vecchiotti C. - Then the haplotype of Raffaele Sollecito as
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you can see has been entered into a database to which the
Dr. Handy obviously knows everything, and everyone knows
all, for which it is inserted in a data bank, a bank
in which data are collected numerous ... numerous
samples because they really are not so many
high ...
PRESIDENT - Yes I know I also then.
Vecchiotti C. - You see? And then we can also jump ...
PRESIDENT - 30 thousand, something like that.
Vecchiotti C. - But it depends because if we are going to
take the
half the population of which we are a part of us meaning
Page 127
own for half the population, there is a system that is
therefore made of a mosaic mobile individuals who
can move from one population to another and we go to
take the Europeans who are here, are cinquemilacento,
then those who have 17 loci, so there are many.
Now, when I say that I can not find a match
haplotype that I found in the data base does not mean that
this haplotype does not exist and that is unique and that I
have
I just did not have it and no one else, are made of
calculations that are specific calculations that are said to
statistical inference or both is a process for which
induce the characteristics of a population through the
study and the observation of a limited number of subjects,
so-called sample, which are taken randomly.
CONTI S. - Go faster, go to the juice.
Vecchiotti C. - So as such it is obviously necessary to make
a
probabilistic calculation. Now, let's say that there are
different, the probability is the ratio of the number of
events
favorable and the possibility of all events that may
provided that they are equally likely to happen, it's a bit
'
complicated. On the other hand, inferential statistics is
not known
the problem of the generation of the data, is not known, and
is
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just what you should be looking for, or is the example
classic is this: if we have, we know we have a
container, urn ten o'clock and six black balls which
four red, making a probabilistic calculation we
that going to fish what is the probability of taking
the red one? 0.4 percent.
PROSECUTOR - This is an example more ...
Vecchiotti C. - We no?
PROSECUTOR - ... for PCR than for the Y haplotype
maybe.
Vecchiotti C. - Gotta have it ...
PROSECUTOR - How are the samples?
Vecchiotti C. - So, considered then this thing ...
PROSECUTOR - Donors, Professor, how many are
this database?
Vecchiotti C. - What?
PROSECUTOR - Donors to this data base many
Page 128
are?
Vecchiotti C. - Then you look at it, hoping to be found here
be able to read them because ...
PROSECUTOR - With complete profile, of course.
Vecchiotti C. - There, there should be written huh, anyway.
Then haplotypes at 17 loci are around 36 447 to date
the day before yesterday, this is everyone's goal, however,
population, but those related to the population of which
we are part of this and we printed yesterday or
the day before yesterday ...
PROSECUTOR - Yesterday printed?
Vecchiotti C. - ... I do not remember, I think it is 5,100
and in
I see the next one though ...
CONTI S. - It 's hard to read.
Vecchiotti C. - So, it is difficult to read, but on the
other hand
You can apply two calculations, and as you can see if you
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apply exactly the kind of formula that we have
said, we see that there is a degree of confidence of 95 for
percent, or whether I can express a value that falls
in the true 95 times out of 100, to find that particular
number
of subjects who quell'aplotipo. In the case of Sollecito
there are 10 to the minus 4 to 7:23, that is the data base
ie 7 of Rever ... about 10 thousand.
CONTI S. - What does that mean? What does that mean?
PROSECUTOR - In short, a Y haplotype same profile
fully equal to that of Sollecito ...
Vecchiotti C. - 17 loci have this, this is because of 17
loci
is the same as before you see?
PROSECUTOR - How many? Those who have it equal
many are there? There, in the database.
Vecchiotti C. - Here they are, it says, at 7:23 ...
PROSECUTOR - I do not see anything.
Vecchiotti C. - No look, when I'm not in the data base 0
means that there is no one else in the world that we
the've, should put those calculations.
PROSECUTOR - but I understand that it is written in the data
base?
Zero is written.
Vecchiotti C. - But Dr. ...
PROSECUTOR - There is written or not?
Page 129
Vecchiotti C. - But it says nothing but you, as you can see
near
there is the calculation that needs to be done, is the
calculation
inferential.
PROSECUTOR - Sure, why were not sampled
all men in the world, it is normal.
Vecchiotti C. - And then, it is clear that you have to make
an approach
kind of ...
PROSECUTOR - It 's normal but ...
Vecchiotti C. - ... Kind of frequentist.
PRESIDENT - Anyway ...
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Vecchiotti C. - It 's a frequentist approach.
PROSECUTOR - means that it is less individualizing.
Vecchiotti C. - Eh.
PRESIDENT - It will also explain the best consultants
side.
Vecchiotti C. - Oh sorry, it's a frequentist approach
so you can not say it is zero in the population, in that,
in 5000 and one hundred.
PRESIDENT - It is explaining the Public Prosecutor, let it
explain, it is a technical issue let her explain.
PROSECUTOR - Well.
PRESIDENT - She said yes it is true that there is zero but
we must
apply a probabilistic calculation to try to understand
how many people in the world ...
Vecchiotti C. - But look who's all ... then there also, and
I have to say even more, and we also go forward in this
point ...
PROSECUTOR - Yes, let's move on.
Vecchiotti C. - Recently, recently ...
PRESIDENT - I believe that there might be enough, if we feel
there is
another question.
Vecchiotti C. - No, no, Rever and have to say that in
2011 ...
PRESIDENT - We get the idea ...
PROSECUTOR - Excuse me, then ...
PRESIDENT - I ... at least I hope to have it in spite of
everything
understood.
PROSECUTOR - No, we must understand, however, that the
because I want to repeat, then apart from the fact that
Page 130
the Y haplotype is compatible with that of Sollecito and
here
we agree?
Vecchiotti C. - Yes, yes.
PRESIDENT - Yes, but they said on the report.
Vecchiotti C. - No entry ... I'm not ...
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PROSECUTOR - A moment, and national databases
many international profiles identical to those of Sollecito
damage? How many profiles?
THE PRESIDENT - That the said, the said ...
PROSECUTOR - Zero.
PRESIDENT - He said nothing, however, we must apply a
formula ...
PROSECUTOR - The important thing is that it was well
recorded.
Vecchiotti C. - You have to apply.
PROSECUTOR - Probabilistic, probability,
well perfect.
PRESIDENT - Why in the database there are five subjects and
enough. Moving on.
Vecchiotti C. - That is, the statistical inference is that.
PROSECUTOR - All right.
Vecchiotti C. - Who knows perfectly well how he sees her.
PROSECUTOR - Yes, but before the database is only a
feedback, excuse the database is an acknowledgment mistake?
Vecchiotti C. - So what?
PROSECUTOR - It 'a response to the reading
electropherogram.
CONTI S. - But only a limited population.
PRESIDENT - Yes, if we are fortunate that we are in
there ...
PROSECUTOR - No, no, the President is not so. So before
you amplification with a different procedure but leaves
outside the printed exactly as the peaks for the
genotype, which is what we just ... which is the most
individualizing because every person has it differently.
There is
the printed and ask the teacher but it seems to me that
had already said ...
PRESIDENT - Yes he said.
PROSECUTOR - ... that the Y haplotype electropherogram
that came out, the profile Y haplotype that came
out of the mixture on the hook is compatible with
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Page 131
that of Sollecito.
THE PRESIDENT - That's right.
PROSECUTOR - This is the first result, which is then
found from the fact that identical profiles to those of
Sollecito, at least those recorded in the world and in
Italy,
there's no needless one.
PRESIDENT - Yes those registered.
PROSECUTOR - This is just a response.
THE PRESIDENT - That, however, does not mean it does not
exist.
Vecchiotti C. - That's right.
Prosecutor - But of course.
THE PRESIDENT - That are not registered.
PROSECUTOR - In New Zealand, it may be that there are
many.
PRESIDENT - We get it, let's move on.
PROSECUTOR - So, I've almost finished the President. Then
pass your examinations, say those carried out ex
novo, then tell me doctor, I think I'll have to
ask you, what is the minimum amount of DNA that is
can be analyzed with the current analysis techniques?
Vecchiotti C. - Depends on the kit.
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - President'm sorry, if you can
silence because we do not hear anything from here, there is
behind a mess that we do not hear anything. Thank you.
PRESIDENT - Please silence, let us always remember the
series issues we are dealing with. Tell doctor.
Vecchiotti C. - So, the new kits always return 0.5,
according to some, you can even 0.3 or 0.250.
PROSECUTOR - Can you tell me what is the amount of DNA of
the
below which it speaks Low Template DNA?
Vecchiotti C. - We talked about it before, at first it was
said
100 was then brought to 200 picograms.
PROSECUTOR - For you see, now I copy, I read, is to
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this maybe ... the amount of DNA obtained from
extracts A, D and I. ..
Vecchiotti C. - Yes.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - Restless President? This
morning ...
(Off microphone).
PROSECUTOR - No, I'm theirs.
PRESIDENT - It 'a form to summarize what has been
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said.
PROSECUTOR - No, no, I asked about their analysis
cytological examination only.
PRESIDENT - Go ahead.
Vecchiotti C. - Excuse me, she says, I'm sorry but I
think ... DNA
proceeds? He told me to?
PROSECUTOR - extracts from A, D and I like Imola.
Vecchiotti C. - Then, the extract was at an average of 3
picograms.
CONTI S. - D. Then
Vecchiotti C. - Then D aspects, D1 ...
PROSECUTOR - At microliter.
Vecchiotti C. - D1?
PROSECUTOR - picograms to microliter?
Vecchiotti C. - Yes Then H?
CONTI S. - No, I Imola.
Vecchiotti C. - Aspects that I look for the D, I have to try
them do not
I know by heart. D1? Yes here it is, there is a picogram ...
CONTI S. - Then I Imola.
Vecchiotti C. - We then I. ..
PROSECUTOR - Yes.
Vecchiotti C. - 5.
CONTI S. - Stop it, and just asked this.
Vecchiotti C. - And then what did he say? Just seems to me
no?
Prosecutor - And do you think that would be enough
with the new kits for amplification at least try
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the latter?
Vecchiotti C. - That 5 picograms guess intends to
last?
PROSECUTOR - Yes.
Vecchiotti C. - No.
Prosecutor - But they are 5 or 150?
PRESIDENT - He said no?
Vecchiotti C. - No.
PROSECUTOR - Why?
Vecchiotti C. - Why putting even 10 microliters, 5
picograms per 10 microliters are 50 picograms. 50
picograms is below also, if we wanted to take the 250
In any case we would be under, no.
Prosecutor - And how do you calculate that
consultants get to 150 picograms?
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Vecchiotti C. - It depends on what calculation do not know.
The microliters
to amplify those are, it should be put, ie, the mix is 25
then 25 and 10.
PROSECUTOR - Then she pointed to 0.005 nanograms
microliter.
Vecchiotti C. - I am equal to 5 picograms multiplied by 10
microliters I think they do 50 picograms.
PROSECUTOR - Why 10 microliters?
Vecchiotti C. - Why is the maximum you can put ... of
thing, no? Why do you put more?
PROSECUTOR - Okay '.
Vecchiotti C. - And then they are even less, if you ... 35,
where it
we microliters of 7.5 ...
Voices in the background.Vecchiotti C. - Ah, 17.5, and 150, however, we are always in
below the threshold.
PROSECUTOR - By what amount?
Vecchiotti C. - Excuse me, always below 200 and the new
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kit always below 300 if you want, but I for
example I used (inaudible) is written
however 0.5.
PROSECUTOR - So you do not know publications
where scientific findings were analyzed, rather they are
traces were analyzed volume of less than 200
picograms and that gave ...
Vecchiotti C. - With volume you mean a concentration
I guess DNA.
PROSECUTOR - Concentration yes.
Vecchiotti C. - That is not a volume. Yes, I am aware of
work, for example the doctor Caragine presented a
work, a work of validation of his method. Now,
there was in fact a very heated debate between her and
others with whom he had spoken this morning why? Because in
a
process of the State of New York against Emegnat, she had
extrapolated a DNA from a low copy number and therefore did
not want to
be acce ... This was not accepted by Budowle and
others, absolutely, let's say there was a big ...
PROSECUTOR - Well 'but that's not the Budowle
Almighty.
Vecchiotti C. - Yes it is true so it was ... But what did
she
Page 134
demonstrated, Dr. Handy has proved this, the
his lab had been validated by a quantitative method
lower.
PROSECUTOR - All right.
Vecchiotti C. - I mean the method should be validated, the
Validation requires that attested the reliability and
reproducibility on the basis of several elements that are
and indicated that if he wants them to him projectile
everyone ...
PROSECUTOR - No, because if ... why did not he added ...
Vecchiotti C. - ... To say this method is validated ...
PROSECUTOR - Lightest.
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Vecchiotti C. - ... You can use it, but I can not I
use in my lab if I have not validated.
PROSECUTOR - Perfect.
Vecchiotti C. - I have to validate it.
PROSECUTOR - Perfect, she did not have valid
fine, but why did not he indicated to the Court, I do not
I can do that because they are not validated, however, know
that in
Theoretically you can do.
Vecchiotti C. - It 's in the expertise that has Caragine
Excuse done.
PROSECUTOR - Where is it written? It should be 'the Caragine
...
Vecchiotti C. - I reported ... I understand but if you read
the
expert report is written ...
PROSECUTOR - No, in his conclusions.
Vecchiotti C. - ... In the validation, when it comes to low
copy number here it is on page 93 speaks of validation, if
This is also said to not only all the precautions that
must be used as is always the risk of
contamination and talk about it for pages and pages pages,
after
of which requires an amplification made in a certain way,
the RFU that must be ...
PROSECUTOR - Doctor, I can stop?
Vecchiotti C. - Please.
Prosecutor - And not here, because she ...
Vecchiotti C. - No, no.
CONTI S. - He said please.
PROSECUTOR - wrote ... in my opinion ... my
question is: why did not report to the Court
possibility that also in other laboratories, also other
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States, of the other continents or other planets, there
could
be the possibility of analyzing the traces that have
found you, because she writes, has not written anywhere
Aside from what you are saying, then if you have, as it
were,
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copied out of a job due Caragine would enter
in its conclusions because the conclusions are cutters.
PRESIDENT - Okay, 'the question delivered it to the Public
Ministry.
PROSECUTOR - Sorry ...
PRESIDENT - Did he asked the question.
PROSECUTOR - No, wait.
PRESIDENT - Excuse me, let's meet.
PROSECUTOR - No. In conclusion, she wrote: "The
quantification of the extracts obtained from the samples
carried out on the Exhibit 36 and 165b performed by Real-
Time
PCR did not reveal the presence of DNA "in bold.
Then this is false.
PRESIDENT - No. ..
Vecchiotti C. - What?
Voices in the background and overlapping.
CONTI S. - No.
PRESIDENT - Let her answer ...
PROSECUTOR - View ... I'm sorry but I do finish
read?
PRESIDENT - Let her answer, let her answer.
Vecchiotti C. - Excuse me ...
PROSECUTOR - No, there is another passage: "View
the absence of DNA in the extracts obtained by us, in
agreement
with the consultants of the parties - we could elaborate
Also this agreement - was not undertaken in step
subsequent amplification. "
PRESIDENT - We feel then.
Vecchiotti C. - That I do not understand the question, I
must be
sincere, I remain ... fake?
PRESIDENT - The question is, how come you did not do this
for example on Mars would perhaps have done in a
some laboratory astral this particular test, even
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with a ...
Page 136
Vecchiotti C. - But it really is present in more parts ...
PRESIDENT - I think I understand this.
PROSECUTOR - Validated ... since he speaks of Montana and
of Virginia we moved everyone there ...
Vecchiotti C. - Actually in most parts is shown when you
speaks of the low copy number from that point of view, in
laboratories do at least as study and every laboratory
must validate its own method, I mean only once
that is valid this method can be used.
PRESIDENT - But only in that lab or ...
Vecchiotti C. - Only in the lab once it is
validated, accredited, I can ask the laboratory to
give me all the information, I can even improve
because there are some who like Buttler door, he studies 10,
20,
30, 50 picograms of course has not yet validated, but
if he had validated he can say: "My laboratory
is able. " This is about my lab is not valid
for this reason, that of Dr. Stefanoni used a
method that I would like to know if it was valid or not, if
it was
validated quaestio nothing but if it was not valid and
valid means approved by the Accreditation Sinal, did not
value.
PRESIDENT - I get it.
PROSECUTOR - Maybe if I had asked her
time before the close relationship ...
Vecchiotti C. - Look, in 2007, in 2007 he told me that
it was not even certified.
PRESIDENT - Okay 'then you could say that Dr.
Stefanoni he could say: "I have done this test because
are validated. "
Vecchiotti C. - Well 'now ask him if it is validated.
PROSECUTOR - President did in 2007
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Stefanoni.
Voices in the background.CONTI S. - So what? It was not validated.
PRESIDENT - Okay, in 2007 ...
Vecchiotti C. - And then we're talking about things you
also spoke ...
PROSECUTOR - now I'm talking about ...
PRESIDENT - Moving on to the next question.
PROSECUTOR - ... new examination, in short, that in our
warning could be done, a new analysis, a new
amplification ...
Page 137
Voices in the background.Vecchiotti C. - Absolutely ...
PROSECUTOR - What the teacher ...
Vecchiotti C. - Absolutely not and in any case I decide if
the
I do or do not do it, if I take responsibility ...
PROSECUTOR - Ah, she decides.
Vecchiotti C. - Of course I decide because I am that I sign.
Prosecutor - But at least signals to the Court
possibility.
Vecchiotti C. - It is I who am I to tell you.
PRESIDENT - Okay, no she only responds to questions
Doctor.
Vecchiotti C. - Excuse me, huh.
PRESIDENT - Just answer the questions.
PROSECUTOR - Okay, she decides. No further questions.
Excuse me ... happened to her, his experience, this is the
last
question, in his experience also say their forensic
Has it ever happened that one or more samples that she felt
not be analyzed were then analyzed and it was
extract a DNA also useful to arrest the culprit of a
murder?
CONTI S. - There she is, there she is.
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168
Vecchiotti C. - I do not know, probably because she knows a
Once I commit then I do not know ...
PROSECUTOR - If you are apathetic, yes.
Vecchiotti C. - No look ...
PROSECUTOR - The crime dell'Olgiata I think the
consocerà ...
Vecchiotti C. - Here is yes, then look ...
PRESIDENT - If you are aware that this has occurred
fact.
Vecchiotti C. - No, it is not the exact question President,
then
I would like to make a clarification.
THE PRESIDENT - No wait, I repeat to him the question ...
Vecchiotti C. - The question ... the purpose is very clear.
PRESIDENT - Here she meets me.
Vecchiotti C. - But it is not ... is the wrong question.
PRESIDENT - The prosecutor asked her: Ever
that she at one point in his genetic investigations have
said "No, here the value is too low" ...
Vecchiotti C. - No.
PROSECUTOR - You just can not find anything, did not
Page 138
found nothing.
Vecchiotti C. - No. So let's say, then do not watch it
Consignor but I want to answer, if you allow me.
THE PRESIDENT - That answer.
PROSECUTOR - Be ', the conference the President decides.
Vecchiotti C. - Yes, if the transferor is the President so
decides, I
I decide whether to answer and I assume so. Then the case
dell'Olgiata, which was taken as example, is
the wrong example and tell her why. It is not true that
was not found at all, must start from a
assumption in my opinion, what is the question that is in
place.
The question that was put is this: to make withdrawals
random ...
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PRESIDENT - But excuse me doctor ...
Vecchiotti C. - Excuse me, excuse me, it is not true that I
found a
DNA low, it is not so, in the meantime we were three
consultants
Public Prosecutor, had, had been given by the
Chief Prosecutor in charge of making withdrawals and limited
random and that we have it formulated and written in the
What, another relic of leaving it suspended and not
if you do not examine it behind your express consent,
therefore agree with the parties, we also have movies, we
We filmed and collected traces, some traces
exactly as they said limited. The misfortune
wished that we did not take the track that contained the DNA
of the man who later confessed to being the murderess, but
was random, not that I or we just extract
DNA, I want this to be clear, there came the profile
and someone else came to the profile, it does not. Namely
that track ...
PROSECUTOR - No, no, he did not found the right track.
Vecchiotti C. - ... Was, if he had been told as a
recent case, and that even those who should know well
works on the other side say, you should know ...
Prosecutor - And what is the other part? So you're from
a part.
Vecchiotti C. - So, the Scientific Police should
know ...
Prosecutor - And the second time he speaks of parts.
Vecchiotti C. - So no, excuse me, on the other hand ...
PROSECUTOR - So it means that it is a part.
Page 139
Vecchiotti C. - Since she first talked to me as ...
PRESIDENT - Okay 'talk to us, talk to us.
Vecchiotti C. - So no, since she first said: "You
universities and they are ... "then ...
THE PRESIDENT - No should be ', let's move on.
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Vecchiotti C. - ... So that's fine.
PRESIDENT - It 's clear that it ...
Vecchiotti C. - So let's say that ...
PRESIDENT - On a day so there may also be
these ...
Vecchiotti C. - So let's say this President, that in this
case ...
PROSECUTOR - Lawyer for He hath called all the time,
why I say you're the university ...
Vecchiotti C. - ... I was given, written by the Attorney
head, put it in writing not to do random sampling but
withdraw inch by inch, a finding that is longer than
I made two feet 640 samples, then it is clear that if
also Olgiata we have done all tracks, hold
that the one in which it was found was a
track of two inches in diameter then a trace
important and too intense we'd found it, but me must
say you have to do them all, because it is not so much
fatigue
or thing, we used to do, as a matter of cost
we were told random. Currently I was told no, must
be all carpet, inch by inch, and it is
Everything was videotaped. No I wanted to say that it is not
I have not found it and it was a low copy number and other
have found, however, was another track and this is
how much.
PRESIDENT - Okay, he said that was the last question right?
PROSECUTOR - Penultimate.
CONTI S. - No, no this ...
Voices in the background.PROSECUTOR - Have you ever think it was named
expert by the judge and then the judge did not follow the
his directions?
THE PRESIDENT - No, no, not that.
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171
CONTI S. - No, no, excuse me, this goes beyond ...
Voices in the background.PRESIDENT - In fact, this is not ...
CONTI S. - And 'the peritus peritorum, please.
Page 140
PROSECUTOR - Okay, I will produce directly the Judgment.
PRESIDENT - Okay enough is enough as well.
PROSECUTOR - The Judgment, however, I can produce? The
Res judicata ...
CONTI S. - That is not such a thing like this. It is to be
shiver. It's a shame.
Voices in the background.THE PRESIDENT - No, no, I do not feel. Silence!
PROSECUTOR - The future I will be able to produce in the
Judgment
judicata of the Court of Assizes of Cosenza.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - No, because ... (Off
microphone).
Prosecutor - And why not? Even the Olgiata explained
more ...
Voices in the background.THE PRESIDENT - That's enough, then that's it.
PROSECUTOR - No further questions.
PRESIDENT - So now we do a program, for today I would say
just this is clear because then there are difficulties
follow ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - President ...
PRESIDENT - Say Lawyer.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - I wanted to clarify the fate of
the case
those two certificates. Prior to the program, on which
obviously I can not say anything that let's do, I wanted to
clarify the fate of those two ...
PRESIDENT - now tell you. I was interested to know
Lawyer Maresca has questions to ask the experts?
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - Yes.
PRESIDENT - In the next hearing, however.
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THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - How do you think President.
PRESIDENT - Actually they too are tired, we are tired
we ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - Chairman Consider ...
PRESIDENT - says the course connects different questions in
the margins
from those made by the Public Prosecutor.
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - Questions about other than
those
made by the Public Prosecutor.
PRESIDENT - Nearly different.
CONTI S. - And no qua ... no start again, no eh.
PRESIDENT - We will see from time to time.
Page 141
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - Chairman then obviously we
conclude
us the exam.
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - No, you've done the exam.
PRESIDENT - You said that you had not ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - President we are the first to
have
obviously had the word, as in the trial,
for what had transpired we had questions have emerged
a number of things with respect to which we must conclude
examination, it is obvious, as is the rule of the hearing,
there
forbid.
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - On this President then ask
a measure, we reserve.
PRESIDENT - On this we reserve after that will have you felt
her. Meanwhile, I wanted to clarify this: the next hearing
which
Now we define the experts will appear and we will report on
these tests negative today, that we will report if they are
actually negative controls today filed
the Attorney ...
Voices in the background and overlapping.PRESIDENT - They will examine ...
Voices in the background and overlapping.PRESIDENT - Yes, yes, yes, and some will be deposited ...
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THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - President have already ...
PRESIDENT - ... and will have to be taken into custody and
examined
by the experts. You can take a copy if so, whether there
serves of course, so let's say that within five or
six days the experts will be able to withdraw from acts of
process these negative tests ... negative controls
I'm sorry, and we will report at the next hearing if you
actually refer to those genetic tests that
interested in us.
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - Chairman of the mean as a
additional expertise?
CHAIRMAN - And yes because the elements have emerged today.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - President ...
PRESIDENT - Let's say a clarification rather than a
supplement, a
clarification.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - Chairman, if I may ...
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - Why for and against our behalf
Page 142
I also think the Attorney negative controls were the
acts and consultants ...
Voices in the background.THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - ... excuse me, if I can
finish, the
consultants and the public prosecutor have asked them to
Dr. Stefanoni had them, and the same could
Professor Vecchiotti do not he did not know
because, so if we want to specify that they were
available to all parties, is not new today.
PRESIDENT - I do not know, I can not honestly this
to act, as she says, and I take note of what she
he says.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - President, our consultants us
say exactly the opposite, that they never viewed the
negative controls.
PRESIDENT - I honestly have not seen, I did not even
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174
a specific investigation, for which is what both the experts
We will respond to this, you will need to clarify whether
these
Negative controls actually refer to
investigations that have been commissioned and if indeed
are negative or if they are ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - President I rise briefly
on this topic.
PRESIDENT - says Yes, Lawyer Dalla Vedova.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. THE WIDOW - I believe that we are
experiencing a
something that has already happened at the trial, that we of
the
we know today in defense of the documents that we do not
appear to be on record, despite what the Party says
Civil. So I make a formal objection
late acquisition of these documents, and I note also
if that were distributed to consultants of the Party
Civil and there take place with an official document,
because if in compliance with the adversarial one party
had access to the documents to which we have had the
Foreclosures because these data are not acts more
sometimes required, so it is an issue that with a little '
surprise we meet to discuss today. So I make a
formal opposition to the acquisition because they are acts
late, and I ask you to consider this.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - Our consultants for these
documents today affirm the indispensability of the data
Page 143
crude, to which we have all abandoned at the hearing say the
truth, that is, the same experts have given up because they
have
Having regard to the documents on the height of the peaks
and so on.
Then, I point to the request of fellow Dalla Vedova,
Meanwhile also the verification of the deposit
procedural or less, then an assessment and, if possible, if
consider it from the point of view of legal medical and
scientific
Did this raw data, with the opportunity for this
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175
assessment as an integration of expertise as she was called
her President, also acquire this raw data if it is
useful with these items ...
PRESIDENT - Acquire?
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - One thing that ... the automatic
sequencer
produces a given crude tall electropherograms, if
are useful from that point of view will tell them
immediacy even if I repeat some hearing ago
renounced the acquisition of this raw data or
(Inaudible) now ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - President, of course, you live
the
final part of this process, but this defense is
acts and we can point to the various pages of the
transcription, even repeatedly in order to obviously
ask the expert, asked a series of data and results and
we can point to the pages, as it is in preliminary hearing
both in the trial, both with notes that I think you'll
bed, repeatedly asked the defense on the basis of what is
had come to formulate a electropherograms
because as you understand the electropherogram is a
graphical
which must be based on some data. We can indicate
every time we asked all these data, only
with a first order of GUP some things we have been
date, there has been under investigation hearing
a lively debate about just what we needed, to
when I and my colleagues have asked the expert
There was then denied not only the expertise but also the
availability of all these data that are completely
missing. Now, at this point we do not is that we can do
because we have expertise in more than eight hundred of the
prisoners and
Page 144
so now if we can not come out of the new data
suddenly reopen everything, so we check first
if all were, as they take on, then it is deposited
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176
a speech, if you have deposited will mean that there is a
big mistake and we did not arrive. But beware, if
have never been filed and we have two prisoners in
prison and are as important as the result of what
says the expert, and certainly we in August after four
years that they are in prison, we can not reopen
suddenly a figure that has always been missing. So on
that there is a strong opposition to the absolute lateness,
ie at the end of an appraisal comes out this feedback,
unless there is when documents have been filed, it is
too easy to tell us we had it.
PRESIDENT - Okay, then we retire.
ATTORNEY GENERAL - President excuse me, let me clarify a
thing, we agree, we do not present in this
time these data, was presented with a report
filing of a CD containing these data, and then these
are the acts of the process, I actually ...
PRESIDENT - It 'a copy, however, excuse the Attorney
General, is a
a copy that is not deposited, is not nothing,
could have been done even now.
ATTORNEY GENERAL - E 'placed before the Court President,
just look.
PRESIDENT - Now I will try, of course we can not answer
here now.
ATTORNEY GENERAL - So I say the question is not so much
let today's hearing new facts or documents
new, these documents are there.
PRESIDENT - I will check.
Voices in the background.ATTORNEY GENERAL - And then that's different, we should
reconstitute a document that has been lost, if it was
so then it would be different, and then it does not make
sense to enter
at this time other requests for acquisition of
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177
documents that seem right out of the world.
PRESIDENT - But this is just a copy for us to see ...
ATTORNEY GENERAL - Used to identify where they can stay.
At this point, the Court of Assizes of Appeal retires Room
of counsel.
Page 145
The Assize Court of Appeal returned to the classroom of
hearing,
decided to issue the following
ORDERThe Court of Assizes of Appeal,
decides that the Clerk to proceed on the spot to a search
of the negative controls that should have been required
GUP hearing on 4 October 2008, in which it was prepared
the delivery of these documents and that Dr.
Stefanoni claims to have them delivered on 8 October
2008 at the Registry of GUP.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - But still they are not ...
PRESIDENT - Yes, but if you have been placed, said to have
been
deposited at the hearing on GUP as I understand it.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. BONGIORNO - So when ...
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - President, there is the list
of
documents that form the dossier of the trial
made by Dr. Micheli, there is just a list of two
pages, I guess there is also the floppy disk that has been
acquired.
PRESIDENT - In the meantime look for them, we will suspend
for half an hour.
(Suspension).
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178
PRESIDENT - So we, with Dr. and Mrs. Zanetti
Centorrino, we tried, we could not find anything I
say, and we have here a copy of the decree ordering the
judgment, the decree of the GIP of 28 October with the
content
the case to the trial and there is no trace in
reality of these investigations. So you do not have to do
no further investigation.
ORDEROn the objection of the defense of the accused, do not
assume the
current production of these negative controls.
PROSECUTOR - Excuse me President can speak a
moment?
PRESIDENT - Yes.
PROSECUTOR - If there are in the file of
trial, and we did not know whether or not there were
There were, apparently because the GUP has decided not to
inclusion in the file of the trial, this is not
Page 146
means that the CDs were not there, are left
probably in the file of the GUP. This is the first
observation. The second observation is that there is no
type of lateness and we did not have any obligation to
deposit, for example, at the beginning of this Court of
Assizes
the degree of Appeals because they knew it would be
Will the skill and I remember that the President had
authorized experts to acquire directly from the
Dr. Stefanoni and the biology laboratory
Scientific Police all the documents that they considered
necessary for the experiment of their work. Now,
taking into account that the teacher has confirmed
Vecchiotti
Today it was very important to check if there
were the outcomes of these negative controls, provided that
in
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179
nature there are meanwhile we are as the GUP has seen them
and had acquired them, even if they are not capable of
objectively
unique then it is obvious that they were afterwards made
transmigrate in the file of the trial, but having been
experts authorized to acquire at the Police
Scientific thought that all the data relevant to
the completion of the assignment and having, I repeat, the
experts pointed out that these negative controls are
fundamental importance, I believe that the Court can not
acquire them, I believe.
PRESIDENT - We addressed the problem, and shall
we discussed in closed session, according to the
she says it was preliminary acquisition
to the development of expertise, skill and then was made
on everything that has been delivered so now not
we can continue to move forward, because these
scrutiny, here is not that I want to do a
anticipation of judgment, but a rule of thumb have
a relatively mild in that they should
establish these controls, on that occasion the
machinery was saying is clean and not polluted.
Of course this does not exclude, in the aim of
experts make it clear that there is a pollution upstream,
I mean then the importance is relative, we are also
Available to acknowledge that the machinery was, that is not
we doubt that the professional competence of the Police
Page 147
in the carrying out genetic controls, then it seems to me
that
the importance is low.
PROSECUTOR - This is definitely an assessment of the
which I can not quite make observations, however, is of
that it is important that you do not say anywhere that
negative controls because there are no negative controls
there are, for another are absolutely unchangeable for which
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180
the experts do not have them, because they do not have them
asked.
PRESIDENT - Since then we have the expertise to evaluate us,
we believe that after all is not so important
in short, to ascertain ...
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - President ...
THE PRESIDENT - Do not you agree Ghirga Lawyer?
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - ... it seemed that the Court,
albeit in
forms of dictation had issued an order "after hearing the
parties. "
PRESIDENT - Yes, I was thinking of having made the order
saying
that because we have not found, I thought it was this
the ordinance.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - This is a request of more ... To
me it is
seemed to have understood that the Court had issued
an order not to acquire these data, after hearing the
parties.
THE PRESIDENT - That's not acquisivamo, yes, yes.
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - This further intervention at all,
say is that she knows how to convey the warmth, lies in the
Our ...
PRESIDENT - I have clarified our thinking
DEFENSE CHAMBERS. Ghirga - ... but it does not go well, the
order is issued and
There have also reasoned ...
PRESIDENT - Okay, then I would say that we can update
September 5 with the lawyer Maresca will continue
examination of experts, consultants, and then introduce the
street
saying.
THE CIVIL CHAMBERS. Maresca - President we assume 5, 6,
7?
PRESIDENT - Yes on 5 September every day indefinitely.
ORDER
Page 148
The Assize Court of Appeal,
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refers to the hearing on September 5, 2011 09:00 ff;
invites the parties present to appear at the next hearing
without
further notice;
available immediately for the translation of the accused for
that date.
This record will be closed at 18:25.
COURT OF APPEALS OF PERUGIA
CRIMINAL CHAMBER
This report, prepared by LA FAST SOC. COOP., Is
composed of No. 182 PAGES for a total of characters (spacesincluded): 283 430.
The auxiliary technical Cristina Buds
Editor: Cristina Buds
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