115 September, 1955.] 9

.. Crgtnlthwu AanubtgThursday, 15th September, 1955.

CONTENTS.

Questions : Housing, land purchase, Brent-wood ... .. ... ..

Dairying Industry, advisers, stations andresignations .. . .. ..

Education, expenditure on school build-ings ... ..

Water supplies, reticulation, Keadininand Cunderdla areas... ..

Railways, (a) cost of laying sleepers ..(b) use of diesels for suburban traffic(c) flashing signal, Robinson-rd.

crossingElectricity supplies, position at Keller-

berrin...........Dc-salting of water, use of process at

Wellington DamDrive-in theatre, use of Cottesloc reserveState land ta, amounts collectedTraffic, (a) proposed road from Narrows

bridge(b) photographic evidence of oftenocs

Taxi rates, Railway Department decisionNarrows bridge, naming ..

Bills .Marketing of Barley Act Amend-m ent, fr. ... .. ... ..

Boil Fertility Research Act Amend-ment, Sr. ..

Parks and Reserves Act Amendment, ir.Acts Amendment (Librares), Message 1,

2r. .. .. .. .. ..Mining Act Amendment, 2r.Commonwealth and State Housing Sup-

plementary Agreement, 2r., Corn.,report .. .. ..

Honey Pool, Zr., Corn., report... .Coal Mine Workers (Pensions) ActAmndeadant, 2r. -.. ..

Jury Act Amendment (No. 1), 2r., Corn.,dissent from Chairman's ruling -

Page

597

597

698

598598598

598

599

599599699

599SooSoo500

600

600600

SIM

6026039

612

618

The SPEAKER took the Chair at 2.15p.m., and read prayers.

QUESTIONS.

HOUSING.Land Purchase, Brentwood.

Mr. NIMMO asked the Minister forHousing:

(1) What was the total area of landpurchased by the Housing Commission inthe Bull's Creek area now known as Brent-wood?

(2) -What was the purchase price peracre?

'(3) What was the actual cost of clear-ing, subdivision, and cost of any roads paidfor by the State Housing Commission?

(4) into how many blocks has the areabeen subdivided so far?

(5) Will there be a further number ofblocks when subdivision is completed?

(6) At what prices are the blocks beingsold?

(7) If all the blocks--(a) now subdivided;(b) to be subdivided,

were sold at the prices being asked bythe State Housing Commission, whatwould be the total sale value?

The MINISTER replied:

(1) ?32 acres.(2) Approximately £36 Per acre.(3) 145 acres only designed and de-

veloped to date. The cost of resubdivi-sion, survey, clearing, road constructionand other developmental charges of thissection is estimated at £48.600. Actualcost not available.

(4) 382 gross. 371 residential sites.(5) Yes.(6) At current values, as has always

been done since inception of Workers'Homes Act and State Housing Act andas laid down by these Acts. Averagevalues approximately £430.

(7) It is not customary to answer hypo-thetical questions.

DAIRYING INDUSTRY.

Adviwes, Stations and Resignations.

Mr. HEARMAN asked the Minister forAgriculture:-

(1) How many officers of the dairybranch of the Department of Agriculture,whose job is to advise farmers, are stationedin the dairying areas?

(2) Where are these officers stationed?(3) How many of these officers have re-

signed during the last 12 months?(4) Can he advise the House of the rea-

sons for any resignations?The MINISTER replied:(1) 35. In addition six other officers

of agricultural adviser status or higher workpart time from Perth.

(2) Present district headquarters foragricultural advisers are established atManjimup. Bridgetown, Denmark, Bunburyand Busselton.

Dairy instructors are stationed as fol-lows:-

Bunbury-Three officers coveringthe following districts--

(a) Yarloop to Orcenbushes.(b) Capel to Augusta.(c) Factory supervision and milk

and cream quality.Manjimup--One officer covering-

Bridgetown, Manjimup, North-cliffe, Albany and Denmark.

Perth--One officer covering-Perth to Yarloop, plus somne fac-

tory supervision.

597

[ASSEMBLY.]

Twenty-six herd recording unitsare maintained, one herd recorderoperating in each.

(3) one.(4) He was not prepared to carry out

all the duties of an agricultural adviser(dairy), which includes testing, when re-quired. of herds in the pure breed herdrecording scheme.

EDUCATION.

Expenditure on School Buildings.

Ron. A. F. WATTS asked the Ministerfor Works:

(1) What was the total expenditure onschool buildings in each of the financialyears 1952-53. 1953-54, and 1954-55?

(2) How much of such total was, ineach such year, spent outside the metro-politan area?

The MINISTER replied:

(1) 1952-531953-541954:*55

(2) 1952-531953-541954-55

* -. -. 1,450,225.. 1,235,072... 1,586,223

791,404684,644793,520

WATER SUPPLIES.

Reticulation, Kondinin and CunderdinAreas.

Mr. CORNELL asked the Minister forWater Supplies:

in view of the assurance given by hispredecessor and the order of developmentlaid down in the brochure issued by thedepartment in October, 1947, what is; thereason for giving priority to the reticula-tion to Kondinin ahead of the area northof Cunderdin?

The MINISTER replied:

The order of procedure as laid down inthe 1947 publication has not been achievedat the rate originally anticipated andsome adjustments. have been necessary toensure maintenance of supply on theG.W.S. system to meet its rapidly increas-ing demands, calling for more attentionin the early years of the scheme to en-largement of the main conduit and thedevelopment of the new pumping stationat Mundaring.

The 1947 order of development for thefirst three years made provision for ap-proximately 40 per cent. of the work southof Merredin compared with approximately30 per cent. actually completed. No pro-vision was made for Cunderdin north andno work was undertaken.

Further development was provided forsouth of Merredia In the fourth year ofthe 1947 publication, together with sub-stantial work north of Cunderdin.

It is essential that IKondinin be reachedthis financial year to give urgent reliefto the existing system, for which the Gov-ernment has a prior responsibility. Onlylimited work will be possible in Connectionwith the Cunderdin north section andthis will be on the pumping station atCunderdin.

RAILWAYS.(a) Cost of Laying Sleepers.

Mr. CORNELL asked the Minister forRailways:

(1) What is the average cost. asreckoned by the Railways Commission, oflaying a sleeper in the road bed?

(2) Was a contract let recently for therelaying of *sleepers on the Burakin-Bonnie Rock section?

(3) if so, what Is--(a) the total contract price;(b) the Cost on a per-sleeper basis?

The MINISTER replied:(1) Approximately 10s. 7d.(2) Yes.(3) (a) £13,125.

(b) IlOs. 6d.

(b) Use of Diesels for Suburban Traffic.

Hon. C. F. J. NORTH asked the Minis-ter for Railways:

1) Is it intended to equip the suburbanrailways entirely with diesel cars, so thatit will not be necessary to mix the presentservice with steam trains?

(2) if so, how many more diesel carswill be required?

(3) Have orders been placed?(4) If so, where?The MINISTER replied:(I) Yes.(2) Eighteen more if the suburban ser-

vices are to be dieselised entirely. Withincrease in traffic in future years moremight be required.

(3) and (4) Open tenders for 10 rail-cars were invited and these are now beingconsidered by Cabinet.

(c) Flashing Signal, Robinson-rd,Crossing.

Mr. BRADY asked the Minister forRailways:

Can he state when a flashing signal willbe erected at Robinson-rd. crossing,Bellevue?

The MINISTER replied:March, 1956.

[15 September, 1955.] 599

ELECTRICITY SUPPLIES.

Position at Kellerberrin.Mr. CORNELL asked the Minister for

Works:(1) On what date will the electricity

supply in Kellerberrin be taken over by theState Electricity Commission?

(2) When is it expected that the supplyof alternating current will be available toIcellerberrin consumers?

(3) What will be the price of the alter-nating current when supplied?

(4) Will he give an assurance that allthe existing consumers will be connectedto A.C. mains?

The MINISTER replied:(1) No date can be fixed because nego-

tiations with the concessionaire are stillproceeding.

(2) See No. (1).(3) If the commission takes over:-24 units per month @ '7.31d. per unit.24 units per month @ 4.31d. per unit.4,952 units per month Q 3.31d. per unit.All over-5,000 units per month 0 2.31d. per unit.(4) Yes.

DE-SALTING OF WATER.Use of Process at Wellington Dam.

Mr. MAY asked the Premier:(1) Has he seen the report In "The

West Australian" newspaper, dated the13th September, 1955, regarding the possi-bility of a new process, known as electro-dialysis, being used for the purpose of de-salting water, enabling it to be used asdrinking water for householders?

(2) Will he have this matter thoroughlyinvestigated with a view, if possible, tousing such process to purify the water inthe Wellington Dam, thus enabling theland, now embodied in the Wellington Damwater catchment area to be used for agri-cultural purposes?

The PREMIER replied:(1) and(2) Yes,

DRIVE-IN THEATRE.Use of Cottesloe Reserve.

Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON asked theMinister for Lands:

(1) Has any decision yet been reachedregarding the siting, on a Class "A" reserve,of a drive-in theatre in Cottesloe?

(2) If so, what Is the decision?The MINISTER replied:(1) Yes.(2) The Government has decided against

sikh a proposition on that site.r23

STATE LAND TAX.Amounts Collected.

Mr. HEARMAN asked the Treasurer:Can he advise the House of the amounts

actually collected in State land tax duringthe years-

1950-51;195 1-52;1952-53;1953-54;1954-55?

The TREASURER repied:State land tax collections were as

follows:-1950-51-C180,323.1951-52-f209094.1952-53-269,062.1953-54-E296O,843.1954-55-2390,466.

TRAFFIC.(a) Proposed Road from Narrows Bridge.

Mr. COURT asked the Minister forWorks:

Is it correct that the proposed new roadfrom the Narrows over Mount-st. will pre-vent free movement of traffic up and downMount-st. from and to St. George's Terrace,and that traffic desiring to get to or fromthe south-west side (i.e., the high side)of the Mount-st. crossing must get therevia Malcolm-st. and Bellevue Terrace?

The MINISTER replied:Not necessarily. In the Stephenson plan,

Mount-st. is shown as being closed by thenew road from the Narrows, but whetherthere should be an overway or not has notyet been decided.

(b~) Photographic Evidence of Offences.Mr. COURlT asked the Minister for

Police:(1) How many prosecutions for traffic

off ences have been Proceeded with in whichphotographic evidence has been submittedto the court by the police?

(2) I-ow many of such prosecutions havebeen successfully proceeded with?

(3) Is the system of obtaining Photo-graphic evidence of traffic offences provingsatisfactory in the opinion of the TrafficBranch of the Police Department?

(4) Is the evidence available to defend-ant or his counsel before the court hear-ing?

(5) Is there any system whereby photo-graphic evidence, whether submitted tothe court or not, is filed or destroyed understrict supervision?

The MINIlSTER replied:(1) Separate records have not been kept,

but to date approximately 200 have beensuccessfully Prosecuted and no cases haveso far been dismissed. Other cases are inthe course of being listed for hearing.

(2) Answered by No. (1).

[ASSEMBLY.]

(3) Yes. Magistrates have also favour-ably commented upon it as being very con-clusive.'

(4) Yes.(5) All photographs to date have been

filed. In those instances where prosecu-tions have not been proceeded with-where the offender has either beencautioned or the photos have been filedwhere a satisfactory explanation has beengiven, or where the offender cannot belocated-the photographs are attached tothe papers dealing with the particular in-cident and filed at the Traffic Branch, andwhere the photograph has been producedin court as evidence, it is filed at the officeof the Court of Petty Sessions.

TAXI RATES.Railway Department Decision.

Mr. NIMMO, asked the Minister forRailways:

(1) Is it a fact that the Railway Depart-ment has informed the members of theRailway Station Taxi Association that theymust make a uniform charge of 2s. flagfall and is. 6d. a mile, and that any in-fringement of this requirement will resultin cancellation of licence?

(2) If so, by what authority does theRailway Department purport to overridethe maximum rates laid down in the trafficregulations?

(3) If not, how does he account for acircular dated the 3rd May last, addressedto the various members of the associa-tion--signed by Mr. Ashdowne for thedeputy chief traffic manager-whichmakes such statements?

(4) Is it considered that a charge ofIs. 6d. per mile as required by that cir-cular is equivalent to 9d. a mile each way?

(5) If so. does he consider that 9d. amile on any reasonable weekly runningwould pay costs of running and other ex-penses properly to be taken into considera-tion, and leave a reasonable wage for thetaxi driver?

(6) If so, how is such a conclusionarrived at?

(7) If not, will he take steps to directthe department to review the decision re-ferred to with a view to seeing that reason-able justice is done to the operators?

(8) If not, why not?The MINISTER replied:(1), (2) and (3) The Railway Taxi

Association was informed that its mem-bers must conform to a uniform scale ofcharges and because of lack of agreementby the association, these rates, which donot exceed the maximum rates laid downin the traffic regulations, were fixed fromthe 1st July, 1955. The commission is will-ing to accept any varied rates conformingto the requirements of the Police, Traffic

Branch presented as a uniform scaleand acceptable for general application bythe association.

(4) For the same route, yes.(5) Yes.(6) Because the charge is Common on

other ranks.(M and (8) Answered by No. (5).

NARROWS BRIDGE.Naming.

Mr. YATES asked the Minister forWorks:

(1) Has a decision been reached in con-nection with the naming of the proposedbridge across the Narrows?

(2) If not, when is a name likely to beselected?

The MINISTER replied:(1) No.(2) It is suggested that when the con-

struction of the bridge is under way willbe soon enough.

BILLS- (3)-FIRST READING.1,2,

Marketing of Barley Act Amendment.Soil Fertility Research Act Amend-

ment.Introduced by the Minister for Agri-

culture.3, Parks and Reserves Act Amendment.

Introduced by the Minister for Lands.

BILL-ACTS AMENDMENT(LIBRARIES).

Message.Message from the Governor received

and read recommending appropriation forthe Purposes of the Bill.

Second Reading.

THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION(Hon. W. Hegney-Mt. Hawthorn) [2.301in moving the second reading said: Thepurpose of this Bill, as members will ob-serve, is to effect an amalgamation be-tween the Public Library of Perth andthe Library Hoard of Western Australia.Last Year, after due consideration, theGovernment decided it would be advisableto bring about a merger between the PublicLibrary and the Library Board, and con-sequently divorce the activities of thePublic Library from that of the Museumand Art Gallery.

It will be at once evident that the twoActs involved in the necessary amend-ments are the Public Library, Museumand Art Gallery of Western Australia Act,1911. and the Library Board of WesternAustralia Act, 1951. After a series of dis-cussions between representatives of bothbodies at which Mr. A. J. Reid, the then

(13 September, 1955.1 0

Under Treasurer, presided, agreement wasreached on the principles that should beembodied in an amending Bill.

Hon. A. V, R. Abbott: Was thatunanimous?

The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: Asfar as I know, the draft that is now beforemembers had the endorsement of bothbodies.

Mr. Ross Hutchinson: They were unani-mous on the broad principles.

The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION:That is so, and I think it will be foundwhen the contents of the Bill are studiedthat there is very little room in its pro-visions for contention. I would like atthis stage to briefly express my thanks toMr. Reid, who has since retired from theposition of Under Treasurer, and in-deedto the members of the committee andmembers of both bodies, for the co-opera-tive manner in which they considered therecommendations which enabled the ChiefParliamentary Draftsman to draft the Dillin due course.

It will be noted that the one measurewill affect the necessary amendments tothe two Acts I have mentioned. I mayindicate that considerationl was given tothe better method of the two when amend-ing this legislation-that Is, whether itwas desirable to amend the Public Library.Museum and Art Gallery of Western Aus-tralia Act and the Library Board of West-ern Australia Act by separate Bills or toeffect the necessary amendments by oneamending Bill. The latter course wasdecided upon.

The Library Board of western AustraliaAct was introduced by the then Mvinisterfor Education, the present Leader of theCountry Party, and the Library Board con-sisted of 13 members of which there werethree ex officio members, namely theDirector of Education, the Director ofAdult Education and the chairman of thePublic Library. There were 10 nomineemembers including representatives of thePerth City Council, the Fremantle CityCouncil, the Road Board Association ofWestern Australia, the Local GovernmentAssociation, the Country Municipal Coun-cils Association and three members repre-senting the Library Association of WesternAustralia. There were also two nomineesof the minister who did not have thequalifications of any of the nominees Ihave mentioned.

The main amendment in addition toeffecting a merger will provide for a boardof 12 members. That will include twonominee members. The chairman of thePublic Library will not automatically bea member of it, and the Minister willnominate five members-which is an in-crease of three-and the three membersrepresenting the Library Association ofWestern Australia will vacate their office

on a given date. They will cease to repre-sent that body, but they will be eligiblefor re-election.

That Is the main amendment in theBill and, as I said earlier, it has the en-dorsement, in its general principles, ofboth bodies. Provision is also made in themeasure for vesting in the board all theland on which the Public Library is built.There are consequential amendments in theBill to the Public Library, Museum and ArtGallery of Western Australia Act.

Members may raise the question as towhy there is the necessity for an amal-gamation, or why the necessity to alter theposition in relation to the Public Library,Museum and Art Gallery of Western Aus-tralia Act which has been in existence forsome 44 years. I can assure the Housethat the move has not been made lightly.Inquiries were conducted in the otherStates of the Commonwealth and the posi-tion in those other States-according tothose in authority and the officials whomthe Library Board contacted-indicatedthat it was preferable to divorce the activi-ties of the library from the Museum andthe Art Gallery. That obtains in SouthAustralia, Victoria, New South Wales and,I understand, Tasmania.

Since the Public Library, Museum andArt Gallery of Western Australia Act waspassed in 1911, the trustees have performedvery creditable service in an honorarycapacity over a very long period. Someof the members have held office for a con-siderable number of Years and they havebeen imbued with a desire to further thepublic interest in relation to those institu-tions. I think they are entitled to thethanks of the Government of the day.The Museum and the Art Gallery will con-tinue to function as such, and if this Billis eventually placed on the statute book,I believe it will be for the benefit of theState.

I turn now for a few moments to theactivities of the Library Board of WesternAustralia. Although it has been in opera-tion for aproximately four years, it hasperformed a wonderful service and is stillperforming a most essential public duty.Libraries have been established in variouscentres of the State, including Moora.York, Mt. Barker, Djarkan and several othertowns. As Minister for the time beinginterested in the Library Board, I thinkthat, being very representative in charac-ter. it is adopting a very sound policy.it is not attempting to establish a libraryin every town of the State instantly. Ratheris it feeling its way and building up asolid foundation. From my observationsand inquiries I believe that the work ofthe Library Board, in conjunction withthe local authorities in various parts ofthe State, will help to inculcate into thepeople-I suggest it is more necessary inregard to the younger members of thecommunity-a love of reading, of study, ofprofitable use of leisure time.

601

LASSEMBLY.I

It will extend 'opportunities to peopleto follow in any line of study in which theyare interested. I feel that many membersaire interested in this subject. I knowthat the member for Cottesloe is a trusteeof the Public Library and Art Gallery, andthat other members are interested in thelibrary movement. I feel sure that afterstudying the Bill, together with the twoActs already on the statute book, memberswill form the opinion that it will be in theinterests of the State to pass the Bill. Imove-

* That the Bill be now read a secondtime.

On motion by Hon. A. V. Rt. Abbott,debate adjourned.

DILL-MINING ACT AMENDMENT.

Second Reading.

THE MIfNISTER FOR MINES (Hon. L.F. 'Kelly-Merredin-Yllgarn) [2.44) inmoving the second reading said: Fromtime to time we find that various pro-visions in thc Mining Act present a littledifficulty when it comes to dealing withcurrent affairs. Under the parent Acttemporary reserves are only possible tothe extent of 300 acres, which is themaximum which can be granted on anapplication for extra prospecting areas.In many cases where new minerals areconcerned we find that such a restrictionhas a detrimental effect.

Members will recall that last year Iintroduced a similar measure to the onenow before the House, which related toprospecting for diamonds. Today it is de-sired to encourage prospecting for nickelwithin Western Australia on a basis simi-lar to that applying to prospecting fordiamonds. 'The actual prospecting fornickel is of a specialised nature and theamount of available territory which canbe granted under the existing Act istotally inadequate to enable nickel pros-pecting to be carried on, so it is necessaryto make available to those interested inprospecting for nickel much larger re-serves.

There is every probability that anorganised attempt to develop this branchof mining will be made in the very nearfuture and a geological examiination willbe undertaken in which some of the ter-ritory adjacent to the South Australianborder will receive attention. If it provessatisfactory, there is a possibility that, ifa larger reserve can be made available,boring will follow closely the granting ofsuch a reserve. Under this short Bill itis proposed to amend Section 277 to en-able the granting of 3,000 square miles ofland to an applicant as a maximum areafor each reservation, to enable him tocarry on whatever is desired in that area.

As in the last session, in reply to aquery regarding the availability of landwhich can be granted on a 3,000 square

mile basis, I assure the House that thegranting of such an area will not precludeprospecting for gold or any other mineralbeing carried on as well, The area of3,000 square miles to be granted will be!5pecifica~y for the purpose of prospectingfor nickel. There are no complications inthe Bill and I feel it is very necessarythat we make it possible for prospectingfor nickel to be carried out on an organisedbasis. I move-

That the Bill be now read a secondtime.

On motion by Mr. Wild, debate ad-journed.

BILL-COMMONWEALTH AND STATEHOUS[NG SUPPLEMENTARY

AGREEMENT.

Second Reading.Debate resumed from the 13th Septem-

ber.

MR. WILD (Dale) (2.47): I was verypleased to hear the Minister for Housingintroducing this amending Bill the otherevening because I feel that the provisionof opportunities for individuals, at longlast with the aid of the CommonwealthGovernment, to be able to purchase theirhomes, is well overdue.

Over the past seven to ten years variousgovernments have pressed the Common-wealth to do something along these lines.Why it has taken all this time for theCommonwealth to agree to our point ofview, I do not know. I wish to repeatthat we join the Government in sayingthat we ,are very glad that the people ofthis State are to be given the opportunityof buying their homes on a reasonabledeposit and ultimately enjoying the bene-fit of owning them. We know that oncepeople own a square inch of territory inthis vast country of ours, it brings abouta state of stability in the citizen that isof great benefit to the Commonwealth.

It is very interesting to note that theCommonwealth, since the inauguration ofthis agreement with the five participatingStates, has loaned just over £200,000,000,and that of the 81,000 houses that havebeen built under the Commonwealth-State rental agreement, no fewer than10,719 have been built in Western Aus-tralia. That number represents 121 percent, of the total erected in the five Statesthat have been participants in the agree-ment. Coupled with that, we were toldby the Minister that 1,800 of these houseshave been sold in Western Australia outof a total of 3,800 sold in the whole of theCommonwealth.

That is a remarkably good effort show-Ing that we were able to build the houseshere at a much quicker rate than else-where and that we were able to persuadetenants to purchase them. The Ministerprobably knows that in the Eastern States,

[15 September, 1955.] 603

particularly in New South Wales, this pur-chase of homes has been practically afailure. I can recall that when I was overthere four or five years ago. I was toldthat not 1 per cent, of the people whowere renting Commonwealth-State rentalhomes in that State had taken the op-portunity to purchase them.

This agreement is due to expire at theend of the financial year 1955-56, andso it behoves all of those 9.000 or 10,000People still in occupation of these rentalhomes to avail themselves at the earliestPossible opportunity of owning them be-cause, with the expiration of this agree-ment next year, the chances are that itmay not be carried on upon the large scalethat has been operating since 1945.

I must say that I have not been en-tirely in agreement with the policy ofbuilding rental homes for all and sundry.Last evening I was reading the introduc-tory speech made by Mr. Wise in Decem-ber, 1945, in which he pointed out thatWestern Australia's participation in theagreement was largely due to the fact thatwe had agreed to and abided by therecommendations of the then Prime Min-ister that there should be no building dur-ing the war years. This was attributableto the large number of men serving inthe forces and the difficulty of obtainingmaterials, Consequently, when hostilitiesceased in September, 1945, we were start-ing well behind scratch. This State en-tered the scheme, recognising that some-thing must be done at the earliest pos-sible moment. As Mr. Wise said, it wasa form of temporary accommodation toovercome the housing problem in the earlyPostwar years. He went on to say thathe had just received a white paper fromEngland in which it was indicated that50,000 houses were to be imported intoEngland from America to overcome thesame Problem as that confronting us.

That short-term scheme has gone onand on. We have been receiving increasedamounts from the Commonwealth year byyear. I think that Mr. Wise said thenumber of houses that could be built underthe scheme was 146 a year, whereas lastYear about 1,500 were built, bringing thetotal, as the Minister told us. to 10,719.I am not sure that this has been in theoverall interests of the community be-cause many of these people have becometenant-minded, and a matter that alwayscaused me concern was the question ofmaintenance, which as the Ministerpointed out, is something that will becomea colossal problem.

When one thinks that 9,000 houses arestill occupied by tenants, some of themin places in the far North and right downto Albany in the south and Kalgoorliein the east, we are going to need a colossalarmy of men to maintenance those homes.We have been slow to appreciate that itis only private enterprise that should buildhouses for renting.. We have failed to

recognise that point and have been tardyin giving the man who is prepared to in-vest his money in bricks and mortar abetter go so that he might obtain a reason-able return on his investment. Thatstatement may be regarded as fair criti-cism.

In the last twelve months, since Parlia-ment determined that there should be aneasing of the restrictions, a larger numberof homes under construction have beenfinanced by private capital. At themoment this is manifested largely in flats.but it represents a step in the right direc-tion. Three years ago it would have beenvery difficult to find in the metropolitanarea more than one or two suites of smallflats being erected by private capital, butnow that investors know that they mayget a fair return on their outlay, we findlarge blocks of flats going up all overthe place. Of course, these in effect repre-sent capital being invested in the hope ofsecuring a fair return on the money.

I am only speaking for myself-I havenot discussed this matter with my col-leagues--but I think that if we are goingto have a Commonwealth-State rentalscheme in future, the policy should bealtered. There is an obligation on us tolook after the aged and indigent, and ashas often been said, the Commonwealth-State rental agreement was really Insti-tuted-apart from its emergency provisions-to provide assistance to those people suf-fering hardship and those in the lower-in-come groups. We have departed fromthat idea, as the Minister is well aware,and I accept as much blame for it as nodoubt he will accept his share, but thesehouses have been let to all sorts of peoplefrom one end of the State to the other.and we have got away from that Incen-tive which has made Australia, the greatcountry it is, namely, the incentive for theindividual to do something for himself.

We know that when a large number ofBritish migrants arrive, it is regrettablytrue that one of their first ports of callis at the Housing Commission, virtuallysaying. "~Where is my house?" Our for-bears back i 1829 did not have a HousingCommission to appeal to; they had to dosomething for themselves, and while we donot want to revert to those dark and dif-ficult days, we must, If we are going tobuild up a great nation, have a bit more oftheir spirit inculcated in the communityat large. This measure is going to be themeans of giving individuals occupyingthese rental homes a grand opportunityto own their own dwellings.

The Minister quoted one or two in-stances the other evening, and I havethought of another which I believe isworth recounting to the House becausethere were interjections from both sidesas to what would happen in regard tothe rent a man had paid Prior to makinghis decision to own his home. I quote the

604 [ASSEMBLY.]

case of a man who decides to purchase, economic factor today as compared with'and the Price is determined at £2,500. Hemay have been a tenant for about fiveyears. During that period the portion ofcapital repayment would be~ approxi-mately £:100, so that in effect he wouldowe the Commonwealth £2,400. He has topay 5 per cent. of the first £2,000, and10 per cent, thereafter.

It would boil down to this, that hewould have to pay the Commonwealth hisdeposit of £125 plus the £100 that he isallowed because he has been in the housefor five years. His capital repaymentwould be £2,275 which, over the amortisa-tion period of 45 years that has been agreedupon, would amount to £2 5s. 3d. per week,which would probably be less than 75 percent. of the rentals that are paid today.Because of the higher costs these times.the rentals are £2 l5s., £3. and more. Alla man has to do today is to find £125 to£150 deposit, and he can then ,own his,awn home and pay less, by way of re-Payments over 45 years, than he had beenpaying as rent during the term of hisoccupancy.

The time is long overdue when the ten-ants in these homes should have the op-portunity to own them. I look forward tohearing from the Minister, in the shortestPossible time, that many hundreds of ap-plicants have availed themselves of. thisopportunity, because I feel that next year,when this agreement comes up for review,there might not be quite the easy provi-sions that there have been in the past fewyears. My wish is that this agreement, ifwe are to continue it, and to some degreeI think it should be continued, shouldbe confined to those in the low incomegroup and that the money that comesto the State through the CommonwealthLoan Council should be distributed as to£:1,000,000 for the low income groupand as to £4,000,000 for financethrough our own Workers' Homes Boardrather than what occurred last year when£5,000,000 was made available for the pur-Pose of Commonwealth-State rental homes.

MR. 'COURT '(Nedlands) [3.4]: 1 like-wise support the motion. The Minister, inthe course of his speech, made severalPoints which I feel merit emphasis,namely, that too large a number of Staterental homes creates pressure groups whichcan be a menace to any shade of politicalthought; and, secondly, he emphasised,without putting it in precisely these words,the need for economics of home ownershipto be observed. He auoted examples ofwhere rents had been fixed in the EasternStates in the early history of Common-wealth-State rental homes, which werenow an embarrassment to the governmentsof those States. I would say that wasmainly from the threat of politicalPressure that could be exerted by theoccupants of those houses who would resentbeing Put on to a rent that would be an

the time when they first obtained thehouse.

There are some recent instances in theUnited Kingdom where that usually con-servative country has experienced riots insome of the more important provincialtowns because of arguments betweentenants and local authorities who, in manycases, are the home-owners and rent thehomes in the same way as homes arerented under the Commonwealth-Statescheme in this country. Last week I sawsome pictures in an English journal whichrather amazed me, because we know thatthe English people as a rule are very lawabiding. Hut here were pictures, whichcannot be disputed, of the occupants ofthese municipal-owned houses, rioting, andof the police having to deal with themphysically because of their campaignagainst an adjustment of rents.

I make these observations, not inferringthat political advantage has been taken byone side or the other in this State, or anyother State, but, with the swing of thePendulum and the change of governmentfrom time to time, this process of ex-cessive State ownership of rental homescould react against either of the majorpolitical parties. Particularly is this likelywhen we have a large number, runninginto several hundreds, of tenants of State-owned homes in an electorate which mightbe very close in its political expressions atelections. We have several such electoratesin this State, and if the scheme continuedat its present rate and in the present form,I am certain it would become an ever-in-creasing embarrassment.

The further point I touched on, namely,the economics of home ownership, wasdemonstrated by the Minister when heexplained the method used by the HousingCommission to reappraise rents when therewas a change of tenant. I do not thinkany reasonable person can disagree withthat principle. Particularly on this sideof the House do we have to acknowledgethat it is merely what we have been askingfor in various forms in the debates thathave taken place regarding rents andtenancies legislation. So we find that theRousing Commission, in properly apprais-ing the economics of State ownership hasto adjust the rents when there is a changeof tenant. For that reason we have seenincreases made in the rent of a house.owned by the State Housing Commission,when there has been a change of occupant.The Minister did impress upon the Housethe fact that the commission does notadjust the rent while the same tenant con-tinues in occupation.

The Minister for Housing: Other thanincreases in rates.

Mr. COURT: That is so. I am pleasedto see this change of approach to homeownership for a further reason which I

[15 September, 1955.] 605

think will become more apparent in, say,10 Years' time. The dangers of a terrificmaintenance commitment, which is everincreasing with the age of the houses, willbe avoided if this scheme is adequatelypursued, if requisite publicity is given toit and if every encouragement is given toPeople to take advantage of it. It is wellnigh impossible to appraise what would bethe full maintenance commitment on anygovernment owning 9,000 or more rentalhomes. Experience shows that the houselived in by the owner receives greater careand attention than does the one that isrented.

It is not unusual for the owner of ahouse to progressively improve and enlargeit as his family expands and his meansimprove, and as further progress is madewith the reduction of his capital liability.I take it that once the purchaser signsup under this agreement he will assumefull responsibility for maintenance, andthe Government can then write "finis"to a liability which is now an unknownquantity. Last night, by interjection, I sug-gested that the outstanding commitmentfor maintenance on 9,000 homes could atthis moment be calculated at approxi-mately £500,000. Roughly, my calculationwas 9,000 at £50 each, or about £450,000.and I do not think that is an extravagantestimate, as we all know that a minorplumbing repair, a painting job, a fencerepair or something of that nature leavesvery little change out of £50. Add to thatthe fact that some of these dwellings havealready been up for a few years, and, withthe passage of time, the ravages of theweather and other factors become moreapparent. I think that the estimate of£50 is not extravagant and probably is thereverse.

The Government, therefore, is being re-lieved of a responsibility which cannot beaccurately determined. I do not suggestthat the acceptance of this responsibilityby the owner Is unfair; on the contrary,it is a logical and proper responsibilityfor the occupant of a dwelling who, I feel,will be a better citizen for having that re-sponsibility. I have no further commentto make in commendation of the Bill, be-yond suggesting that the widest possiblepublicity should be given to this measureso that all concerned will understand thatthey can come under this scheme. If itis not already proposed by the Minister, Isuggest that it would be wvorth while ifa suitable letter could be forwarded toeach and every tenant so as to make cer-tain that each of them understands thevery generous terms that are availableunder this measure and through the agree-ment effected by it. I support the Bill.

MR. BOVELL (Vasse) [3.12]: Until theoutbreak of the last war, almost all thetenancy houses in Western Australia werecontrolled by private landlords but, owing

to a number of factors-mainly the in-creased cost of building homes-the Gov-ernment, since the cessation of hostilities,has had to step in and provide tenancyhouses. I must say that I am impressedwith the conditions, outlined in theschedule to the Bill, to encourage the pre-sent tenants to purchase the homes theyare occupying. I have never thought it asatisfactory state of affairs that the Stateshould become the greatest landlord inthe State, and I have some recollectionof reading in the Press that the presentMinister for Housing claimed to be thegreatest landlord in Western Australia.

I believe, as the member for Nedlandshas said-I emphasise it now-that thewidest publicity should be given to thismatter so that the occupants of tenancyhomes may know the generous provisionsof the Bill. I would ask the Minister forHousing to concentrate on the erection ofdwellings in country towns that are de-veloping. Families in my electorate areconstantly cofiing to me with inquiriesabout housing and their need for accom-modation. Only yesterday I had discus-sions with members of the staff of theState Housing Commission with regard tothree applicants, and that is only one in-stance of the need for the building ofhouses in country areas.

The financing of such projects is nowbeyond the private investor, and so theState has to take the initiative in theprovision of housing, especially in countryareas. For some time there was a lagin the number of applications for warservice homes, but in the past two yearsa great number of ex-servicemen havebeen married, with the result that theprovision of war service homes is vital.A further point which I would emphasiseis the necessity for providing adequatewater storage for houses in areas wherethere is no scheme water available. TheHousing Commission has built houses incountry towns where no water supply isavailable, and I urge the Minister to seeto it that a capacity of at least 3,000 gal-lons is provided as a minimum require-ment in the heavier rainfall areas, andperhaps 5,000 gallons in the areas oflighter rainfall.

Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member isgetting away from the Bill.

Mr. BOVELL: This has to do withhousing. However, I commend this mat-ter to the Minister's attention. I supportthe Bill, which I think Is a move in theright direction and which, if giveni suf-ficient publicity, will encourage the ten-ants of State rental homes to purchasethose dwellings.

MR. J. HEGNEY (Middle Swan) [3.171:I support this measure, the purpose ofwhich is to give legal effect to an agreementexisting between the Commonwealth andthe State. Members opposite have criticised

(ASSEMBLY.)

the State for having become a big landlord,inasmuch as it has many thousands ofhouses from which it collects rent, but ifone reviews the past few years one mustrealise the Commonwealth and the Statewere forced into the position of having toprovide homes for the people. I well re-member before the war, when the Workers'Homes Act was in operation and manyworkers sought to build homes under It.but unfortunately finance was limited andno funds were available for that purpose.

As I understand the position, before theoutbreak of war there were no less than700 applications for workers' homes andthe reason why people could not get themwas that the attitude adopted then was notto allow too many to be built at a time as itmight increase the value of the houses andconsequently the applicants mnight have aheavier capitalisation than would be thecase if perhaps only half-a-dozen suchhomes were built at a time. That was thepolicy in those days, and the Governmentwhich I supported was at its wit's end tofind money with which to give the workersof this State an opportunity to acquireworkers' homes.

It is true, as the Minister pointed out,that in those days a worker's home couldbe secured on a nominal deposit, in manyinstances £10, and in othdr eases a manmight have a block of ground on which theWorkers' Homes Board would provide theaccommodation. Many such homes are to-day owned by those who were then appli-cants. The difficulty before the war was tofind the money, and I think a formerPremier, Hon. J. C. Willeock, secured somefunds from the State Government Insur-ance Office and other sources for the pur-poses of housing. When he could not getsufficient loan money to build workers'homes, funds from the sources I have men-tioned were made available for the build-ing of homes under the Workers' HomesAct.

Then the war started and from thattime until 1946 the building of homesceased. in 1947, if my memory serves merightly, members opposite, through theirLeader, during the election campaign,complained about the inactivity of theState Housing Commission and statedthat there were cobwebs on that depart-ment. We listened to the same membersthis afternoon and now they offer critic-ism because the State is engaged in hous-ing activities and they want the buildingof' homes to be left to private enterprise.

We all know that the CommonwealthGovernment of that time, under theleadership of Mr. Chifley, knew the pro-blems that confronted Australia generallyin regard to housing and as a result thatGovernment made moneys available forthe building of houses under the Com-monwealth-State housing agreement. Bydoing so an impetus was given to thebuilding of homes throughout the Com-monwealth. That government knew that

young men who had been in the armywould need homes, because so many ofthem had married. As a result of the lagduring wartime, there was a tremendousdemand for homes. Private enterprisecould not undertake the task, and it wasleft to the States to provide accommoda-tion.

For three years the member for Dalewas Minister for Housing and during thattime I was an employee of the StateHousing Commission. He, as well as I do,knows the conditions under which thous-ands of people lived at that time. Theycould not get homes because not sufficientmaterials were being produced to buildthem. At that time there was a controlsystem and a person had to get a releasefor materials before he could build ahouse. Hundreds, in fact thousands, ofpeople were living under conditions of ex-treme hardship. In my opinion, the Statecannot vacate the field of house building;neither can the Commonwealth because.with the large number of migrants comingto this country, the Commonwealth Gov-ernment has to provide a considerablesum of money to enable these people tobe housed.

However, I think the time has arrivedwhen the Commonwealth, through 'theStates, should provide funds to enablehouses to be built and sold at a lower rateof interest than is being paid at themoment. This would encourage youngmen to buy their own Commonwealth-State homes and would be an inducementto increase the population of this country.Some encouragement must be given to thenative-born Australian to own a homeand then produce a family because weneed plenty of young Australians. If thismoney could be made available it wouldbe money well spent and I think theCommonwealth and the States shouldmake every effort to tackle the problemalong those lines and give our youngpeople an opportunity of becoming homeowners. Even under the agreement a per-son has to pay 5 per cent, on the first£2,000 and 10 per cent, on the remainder.up to just under £3,000. That is a fairlysubstantial sum for a lot of young peopleto find.

In my electorate, where there are manytenancy houses, I try to encourage theworkers to become owners of their ownhomes, but when one hears their storiesand realises that many of them have four,five and even six children, one can ap-preciate how difficult it is for them toprovide even the deposit. If the depositcould be reduced, say, by half, I thinkwe would encourage many of these peoplewho are at present tenants of Common-wealth-State rental homes to purchasethem. Once a man starts paying off hishome and knows that it will eventuallybecome his own, be tends to take morepride in it and so the public asset wouldbe protected. Many of these workers are

[15 September. 1955.] 607

handicapped by a lack of capital. Manyof them are on the basic wage and, owingto the high cost of living and the factthat in many instances they have to pro-vide for a number of children, they areprevented from finding even the deposit.

Under the Workers' Homes Act peoplewere Permitted to Purchase their ownhomes and only a negligible deposit wasrequired. As soon as they started to payoff the homes, they became the owners andso took the responsibility. If the samecould be done in regard to Commonwealth-State rental homes, I am sure that it wouldbe of considerable advantage both to theworkers and to the Governament. However,I realise that this agreement cannot bevaried and we have to accept it as it stands.It is of benefit to the State and had it notbeen for the Commonwealth-State housingagreement, I feel sure we in this Statewould have been in a far worse positionthan we are today in regard to housing.I commend the Bill to the House.

MR. O'BRIEN (Murchison) [3.27]: 1rise to support the Bill because I realisethe importance of the agreement and thebenefit that this measure will be to thepeople of the country districts and, in par-ticular, those on the Murchison. We havehousing difficulties throughout the Murchi-son electorate, but I am pleased to say thatthe Labour Government of today is thefirst for the last 50 years to my knowledgethat has ever ventured to build homes forthe people of the country outback. I referparticularly to those in my own electorate.

Mr, Wild: That would not be true.Mr. O'BRIEN: I congratulate the Gov-

ernment and I am grateful to the Ministerwho acceded to my appeal on behalf ofthe people of the Murchison, and Mt.Magnet in particular. The result is thatwe now have Commonwealth-State rentalhomes in that district. If this Bill ispassed-and I am sure it will be-it willentitle those people, after a short time astenants, to become owners of the homes.

The member for Dale intimated that itwould cost a large sum of money to havehouses built in the far North and in thesouth. No expenditure should be thoughttoo great if it provides houses and ameni-ties for those who work so hard, particu-larly those who toil in the bowels of theearth, and their brave wives who battlefor years and years to provide homes fortheir families. People like these put theNed in Nedlands, the Cot in Cottesloc and.the Bus in Busselton! They are thepeople who pioneered this country, and weshould provide for them as well as for themigrants.

Mr. Wild: Did I hear the member arightwhen he said that this is the first Govern-ment that has built houses in the country?.

Mr. O'BRIEN: On the Murchison.Mr. Wild: Ali!

Mr. O'BRIEN: The hon. member shouldlisten carefully.

Mr. Wild: It is a very big State.Mr. O'BRIEN: If the member for Dale

will listen carefully he will learn plenty.I know this is a good Hill for the entirecommunity and I commend it to the House.The provisions it contains will mean atremendous lot to the people in the out-back and will help them to build theirhomes and to carry on in those remoteareas. These people have a great manydifficulties to contend with, and it takes abrave heart indeed to suffer some of thedisadvantages that exist. I know they doexist, because I was born and bred there.

Surely the Government and the peopleof the State can afford the small financethat will be necessary to provide forcollections and inspections in connectionwith the homes built in the outback. Avery weak excuse has been put up by theopposition. These are the people who areresponsible for building up the suburbshere and in the Eastern States by meansof the gold they won years ago on theMurchison. I do not wish to speak atlength on the measure because I know itwill get the support of this House. I trustit will have a safe passage.

THE MINISTER FOR HOUSING (Hon.H. E. Graham-East Perth-in reply)[3.32]: First of all, I wish to express myappreciation of the reception given thisBill. Indeed, I think I anticipated this inmy opening remarks, because surely nomember could oppose a proposition to allowoccupants of rental homes to purchase onreasonably easy terms, those places over anextended Period of years.

I think there is some substance in whatwas mentioned by the member for MiddleSwan, namely, that small as the amount ofthe deposit might appear, there may never-theless be quite a number of people anxiousto make a purchase and well able to meetregular instalments or commitments, but atthe same time not in a position to raise theamount of deposit required under this for-mrula. That, of course, contrasts with thevery small amount which could be paidunder the State Housing Act.

This point was emphasised very stronglywith the Commonwealth and I think it willbe recalled that in his policy speech thePrime Minister stated that his Governmentwas in favour of a 10 per cent. deposit.Fortunately, the States were able to prevailupon him to the extent that he finallyagreed to 5 per cent. on the first £2,000 and10 per cent, in respect of the balance. overall, I feel, it is quite satisfactory as faras it goes.

I think I am right in saying that inTasmania where as I intimated earlier, theGovernment of that State has paid all itsobligations to the Commonwealth-whichmeans that those houses belong to the Gov-ernment of Tasmania-and has sold quite

[ ASSEMBLY.]

a number of them with no deposit whats-oever. An instalment is worked out on abasis of so many years repayment, andthe occupiers are able to acquire the housesmerely by paying the £2.15s. a week, orwhatever might be the sum involved.

As we, under the State Act here, allowpeople to Purchase homes for deposits of£50, and in some extreme cases for as lowas £25. it does indicate that it is quite apractical proposition to allow people to ob-tain their homes with the very smallest ofdeposits. I do not know wether I heardcorrectly when the member for Dale wasspeaking, but I imagined that he said he'was pleased to see that the Governmenthad comet to the Opposition's point of viewin connection with the sale of these homes.

Mr. Wild: I did not say that.The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I am

pleased, then, that I misunderstood thehon. member, because I pointed out verydefinitely that the present Governmentwithin its first weeks of office-and othergovernments of the same political colourthroughout the Commonwealth-were mostinsistent in their approaches to the PrimeMinister, requesting that there should bea supplementary agreement to provide forthe sale of homes on terms. So far asthis Government is concerned, it is nowwell known that it has taken a period ofapproximately two years before that hasbeen given effect to.

For the information of members, I maysay that I have taken the trouble to makeinquiries in other States and, as the mem-ber for Dale has already indicated, in thematter of sales to date under the old sys-tem whereby the full purchase price mustbe paid, Western Australia has the bestrecord of any State of the Commonwealth.The same applies over the short periodthat homes have been on off er on a termsbasis. I indicated that 70 had beenfinalised in this State. I find that in SouthAustralia no more than six houses havebeen sold. In Queensland 17 have paidtheir deposits and I suppose they can becounted as sales.

Inquiries have been made in other Statesand it is impossible to say whether anysales have been actually finalised. Forinstance, Victoria conveys to us the in-formation merely that several applicationshave been received. One would havethought, out of, I suppose, not less than30,000 of these rental homes erected inVictoria, that more than just several appli-cations would have been received. Accord-ingly it is a very real problem and onethat leads up to what was mentioned bythe member for Nedlands concerningpressure groups.

We noticed just recently that the newVictorian Government sought to makesome upward adjustments in the rent levelsof houses built some time ago. Therewere protest meetings held and fiery resolu-tions passed, calling upon all the tenants

to refuse to pay the increase sought. Thiswill tend to reduce that state of affairs.I agree that so long as the State is buildingrental homes, there should be emphasis ondoing something for the older people ofthe community.

Running true to form, the Governmenthas anticipated the situation and is a littleahead of the suggestion of the memberfor Dale. If the hon. member cares totraverse any of the new suburbs in themetropolitan area, which he could do anymorning of the week, he would find thatin every one of the new areas being de-veloped, homes are being specially built forpensioners. It is something additional tothose being built under the McNess Hous-ing Trust and additional to those beingerected in country districts where the Lot-teries Commission provides the moneys forthe erection of premises for old people andthen hands over the estate to the localauthority, provided such local authoritycarries out certain responsibilities.

I wish to assure members that the Hous-ing Commission is doing its utmost to en-courage people to purchase homes underthis supplementary agreement. All ten-ants have been furnished with a circularsetting out in brief terms a general sum-mary of the situation and inviting them,if they are interested, to forward a nomi-nal amount of £2 2s. to pay for the costof obtaining the services of the TaxationDepartment in the making of a valuation.Then, as soon as that valuation had beenobtained, subject to adjustments the com-mission would make in accordance withthe formula I outlined previously, a firmoffer could be made to the tenant.

Here I might mention that the formulawe have applied in this State of sellingat current valuation, less 10 per cent.,but not less than the cost of construction.is purely local. Under the' agreement, itis left entirely to the States to work outwhatever system they like for the saleof these homes so long as the Common-wealth receives the outstanding amountspread over a number of years to liqui-date the loan moneys made available inrespect of the houses.

Seeing that there has been such a mea-sure of agreement on this Bill, I will omita few references that might be termedpar ty- political. But I would like to say,with reference to what the member forVasse advanced-and I am not going todeal with water tanks-that in his owntownship-

Mr. Hovel?: That has a bearing on the-Purchase value of the house, you know.

The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Thatmay be; but perhaps we could discuss thatprivately. In respect of what one mightcall the capital of the Vasse electorate--namely, Busselton-since 1945 a total of21 houses had been built in that townup to the time this Government came intooffice: and by the time it has exhausted

[ 15 September. 1955.2

its three years' term, a further 22 houseswill have been erected in Busselton, fromwhich it can be seen that the claims ofcountry districts have not been overlooked.I conclude by expressing the hope thatmany more people than have as yet givenevidence of it will, in the course of thenext few months, approach the State Hous-ing Commission in a businesslike manner,seeking to acquire some stake in this Stateper medium of the purchase of a houseunder this agreement.

Question put and passed.Bill read a second time.

Sitting suspended from 3.44 to 4.8 p.m,

In Committee.Bill passed through Committee without

debate, reported without amendment andthe report adopted.

BILL-HONEY POOL.Second Reading.

Debate resumed f rom the 13thSeptember.

M. YATES (South Perth) [4.12]: Theintroduction of this Bill is a majorstep forward in the establishment of anindustry important not only to WesternAustralia now, but eventually to the restof the Commonwealth also. Western Aus-tralia is the first of the States to intro-duce a measure such as this. Going backthrough the years we find that in 1924there appeared to be no stability in thehoney industry in Western Australia. Inthat year a band of men-they were knownas beekeepers-decided that because of thegrowth of the industry some steps shouldbe taken to stabilise it, to give not onlysome measure of control to the industrybut also to provide some co-ordination be-tween the many beekeepers establishedthrough the State.

After many trials and tribulations, theHoney Pool as we know it today was es-tablished and later-not very much later,because I think it was the year after-thepool was established, and the beekeepersnominated various members to be directors.trustees and executive officers and theyalso appointed paid staff to conduct thepool. Westralian Farmers played a bigpart in the establishment of the pool andalthough the product is not handleddirectly by that firm it did a lot towardsestablishing the industry In this State. Infact Westralian Farmers has marketed thebulk of the product in this State, the East-ern States and overseas.

In 1932. one of the trustees mentionedin the Bill, Mr. Ronald Moyle, becameassociated with the Honey Pool by vir-tue of its activities as he Is one of theemployees of Westralian Farmers. Mr.Tom Powell, who was the manager of thepool, became closely associated with Mr.Moyle from that time on. Through theyears. as a result of Mr. Powell being the

manager of the pool and Mr. Moyle beinga director of Westralian Farmers, thesetwo gentlemen have built up an industryof which Western Australia can be proud.Mr. Powell has a great knowledge of theindustry itself. He is well acquainted withthe beekeepers and their problems andhe knows the correct method of handlingthe product, and the type of containersused, which have been changed from timeto time. Every container that is usednow is of the highest possible standard.

Throughout past years close co-opera-tion has existed between the Honey Pooland Westralian Farmers without the bee-keepers having any fear of that companytaking over the control of the pool be-cause they know that it acted only inthe role of guide and counsellor. In ad-dition, Westralian Farmers guaranteedthe Honey Pool finances to the extent of£35,000, which guarantee was needed forcertain reasons, by the pool through theearly years.

There are certain peculiarities attachedto the borrowing of money not only bythe Honey Pool, but also by similar organ-isations engaged in various industries.When the members of an industry formthemselves into a pool or group withoutany statutory powers, it is often foundthat their finance is restricted becausethey are unable to obtain loans nor havethey the right to approach any bank toborrow money. Therefore, WestrallanFarmers guaranteed the Honey Pool tothe extent of £35,000, as I have just men-tioned, and that company has more orless backed the pool since its inception.

The Minister, when introducing the Billthe other evening, said that the purposeof the measure was to enable the HoneyPool to become a corporate body. If theBill becomes law and the Honey Pool Isincorporated, it will then have the powerto borrow money, to erect buildings, toextend existing premises and to effect anygeneral improvement in the industry inthis State so that eventually it will notonly become a great industry, but a greatrevenue earner for the State of WesternAustralia. In fact, the past few yearshave proved that thousands of poundshave been brought into this State by theexport of honey to outside consumers.

Needless to say the industry is wellestablished. Not only Is it well established,but also, I venture to say, it is conductedbetter in this State than in any otherpart of the Commonwealth because wehave a honey pool run by experienced men.They are experienced beekeepers and areexpert In the production of honey. Theyknow where to place their hives to obtainthe best quality honey and they also knowthat when they place the product Intothe containers their worries are over be-cause the pool then takes over and ar-ranges for the honey to be graded, packedand shipped away to outside buyers.

610(ASSEMBLY.]

There is another important featurewhich is different from that relating tothe Wheat Pool. That is, immediately thehoney is placed in the Honey Pool, 50per cent. of the sale price of the honeyis paid to the producers and the balanceis paid later by arrangement. Therefore,the producers are certain of at least 50per cent, of the sale price of their pro-duct when it is handled by the HoneyPool. They, of course, cannot get thefull price immediately because a final de-termination is not made until later andas it is a seasonal product a final pricecannot be arrived at until the end of theseason when all the returns have beenforwarded. The balance of~fhe money dueto'the beekeepers is then allocated.

Members may consider that Clause 19of the Hill needs some amendment. In thatclause it is mentioned that not later thanthe 31st October of each year a balancesheet shall be taken out by the HoneyPool-making due allowance for deprecia-tion, and so on-and that balance sheetwill be forwarded, within two months, tothe Minister for Agriculture so that itcan be tabled in this House. Therefore.it can be easily realised that the balancesheet would not be ready for presentationuntil approximately the end of Decemberwhen this House would be rising andtherefore the document could not betabled until the following session or Augustof the next year. The reason for the latepresentation of the balance sheet is thatthe end of the honey season falls inOctober. The 31st October would see theclose of the season when the accountscould then be finalised.

Furthermore, within a few days of thattime the new season commences, so it hasbeen the practice of the Honey Pool inthis State to make up its books and ac-counts from the end of the honey season.It would take the pool at least until the15th November or probably later to getall the accounts in and it would Probablytake another four weeks to finalise allmatters before a report could be placedin the hands of the Minister. Therefore,the pool would not be able to present theMinister with a complete set of documentsfor tabling until the end of the year.

That is the reason why the 31st Octoberis given as the date when all accountsmust be submitted. As a result, when theaccounts and balance sheet are sent tothe Minister for Agriculture, they wouldbe tabled in the following session of Par-liament and that practice would continueYear after year. When the Minister wasintroducing the Bill the Leader of the Op-Position interjected by asking-

floes Westralian Farmers LtdI. holda monopoly of the production ofhoney?

I can assure members that that com-pany does not hold a monopoly nor doesit handle the honey. All the honey crop

is handled by the Honey Pool and Mr.Powell is the general manager of that con-cern. Its premises are situated in Stuart-st., West Perth, and recently the Ministerfor Agriculture laid the foundation stone:of its new. building, which is situated ap-Proximately 100 yards west of the existingPremises.

This morning I took the opportunity ofgoing through these new Premises whichare not yet completed, but when they areI am sure they wvill be a credit not onlyto the Honey Pool, but to Western Aus-tralia as a whole, because I can see bigdevelopments arising from the construc-'tion of a better building, larger floor space,better packing arrangements and new andmodern equipment. Therefore, the HoneyPool will be able to become a still greaterProducer of a better quality product whichit can market to the advantage of thebeekeepers.

Mr. Court: It has already established agood name abroad for its products.

Mr. YATES: It has, indeed. The repu-tation established by the beekeepers inWestern Australia has become widelyknown so that, in future, the Honey Poolneed have no fear regarding the sale ofits product. Unfortunately, this honeyseason has been a bar? one. Because ofthe heavy rains in February many hiveswere destroyed. Later in the season wehad further heavy falls of rain in theNorth and In the great South-West whichinterfered with production. So this yearthere will be a falling off in honey pro-duction mainly because of adverse weatherconditions.

Beekeepers in this State number ap-proximately 600. That figure embracesall b~eekeepers, both large and small, be-cause even if a man has only one hivehe must be registered as a beekeeper. Thatis the reason for such a large number.There are approximately 140 commercialbeekeepers; that is. those owning morethan one or two hives. If a beekeeper hasa number of hives he has to employlabour to assist him in the work and this,of course, adds to the cost of production.I Therefore, if a beekeeper has to employmen, he must go into production in abigger way so that he can Pay for the costof labour and obtain a return for his ownefforts. The 140 commercial beekeepersare the type that have entered the in-dustry to earn a living from it. They areengaged in honey production because theylike the work and because they are out inthe open. They visit various parts of theState. They are keen to improve the qual-ity. of their product and are also keen toPlace Western Australia on the map withthe honey they produce. They are jeal-ous of the reputation they have built upin past years because it has been provedthat Western Australian honey is as goodas. if not better than that produced inother parts of the world.

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[15 September, 1955.1 611,

Mr. Nalder: Have not a number of thesebeekeepers come from the Eastern Statesto Western Australia?

Mr. YATES: I am glad of that interjec-tion. During the year a number of East-ern States producers visited WesternAustralia; some on holidays and some onbusiness. Without exception they inspectedthe premises of the Honey Pool in WestPerth and they were amazed at the im-provements that have been made in theindustry in this State. They were amazedat the way beekeepers are protected if theirhives should be destroyed and also at theway their product is marketed.* In this State we have a beekeepers' com-

pensation fund. Should a beekeeper haveany of his hives destroyed through no faultof his own-for example, through disease-this fund completely recoups him so thathe is able to buy new hives and equipment.That. was one thing that Parliament didfor beekeepers a few years ago. The HoneyPool has done the rest since the inceptionof the industry. So the visiting beekeepersfrom the Eastern States have seen whathas been done by the pool here and theyhave returned to their own States extremelyjealous.

In fact, some of them have left theirState and established themselves here, andthey have not regretted it. I know that therest of the Commonwealth is eagerlywatching the introduction of this Hill inWestern Australia, because I am quite cer-tain that if it is passed a similar movewill be made in other States of the Coin-mnonwvealth where honey production is in-creasing under established conditionssimilar to those in this State.

Mr. Bovell: Do most of the 140 commer-cial beekeepers market their productthrough the Honey.Pool?

Mr. YATES: At least 130 beekeepers, bothcommercial and otherwise, market theirproduct through the Honey Pool. There isan Important provision In the Bill whichmakes it compulsory for the pool to accepthoney from any beekeeper. It is not com-pulsory for a beekeeper to be a member ofthe pool. Membership is quite voluntary.and so the pool is a voluntary one. If abeekeeper desires to market his honeythrough the pool, he can take it to thedepot and it must be accepted by the pool.The beekeepers are quite happy with thismethod. There is complete freedom ofmovement, thought and action on the partof the activities of these Producers. if abeekeeper desires to market the honey otherthan through the pool, he can do so.

The Honey Pool does not mind if bee-keepers can find markets for themselves:That is the reason why the pool has workedso well through the years. While it is notcompulsory for all beekeepers to join, sowell has the pool functioned that approxi-mately 70 per cent. of the producers havemarketed their products through it. One

or two of the bigger keepers have marketedtheir production through other sources formany years. There is no compulsion tomarket the honey through the pool: theonly compulsion is for the pool to accepthoney from beekeepers.

Mr. Nalder: Do beekeepers have tonotify the pool of the amount of honeythey are likely to produce?

Mr. YATES: There is no obligation onthe beekeeper to notify how much he willsend into the pool. I take it that throughthe years the controllers of the pool wouldhave a very fair knowledge of the annualproduction of the various beekeepers. Theywould know how much to expect fromeach of them, large and small. This yearthe production was upset by abnormal con-ditions. In normal years they might inquireof beekeepers, before the season commen-ces, how many hives they were likely tohave and what would be their production,but I am not sure of that. The systemadopted by them would indicate what theycould expect in honey production.

Another improvement effected by thepool concerns containers. At one timehoney was sent up from country districtsin 4-gallon tins which cost 5s. each. Nowthe honey is handled in bulk and this isthe only State in the Commonwealth whereit is so handled. Beekeepers are providedwith substantial drums having a capacityof approximately 44 gallons. They are hiredout at a cost of £1. Under the previousmethod, the 4-gallon containers cost 5s.each but now a 44-gallon container costs£1. In other words, under the old systemit cost £2 10s. for containers to market 44gallons of honey, but under the new systemit only costs El. There is a big saving inhandling costs and it is easier for the bee-keepers.

Nowadays some of the smaller producerscan handle their total production in onecontainer, and others require two or three.In the old days when they had to fill the4-gallon containers on the ground, handlethem on to trucks and take them off atrail-heads; it was a back-breakingtask. With the new method of handling,the honey is pumped into the 44-galloncontainers and the beekeeper is saved a lotof hard work. The pool is right up to datewith modern methods. Its marketingsystem is second to none. It has establishedmarkets overseas. Today the industry iswell established.

Now the stage is reached where after allthe years of experience it is desired to forma corporate body with nominated directorsfrom the pool and from those engaged inthe industry, together with a trustee fromWestrallan Farmers. They have a quaran-teed £35,000 overdraft at the bank for theirneeds. With a voluntary tax on honey ofId. per lb., which is not a great amount,in the years to come, slowly but surely,the honey pool will be able to pay backthe money it borrows or intends to borrow

612 ASSEMBLY.]

for the further extension of their premises,and for the further good of the beekeepersof this State.

I commend this Bill to members. I thankthe Minister for Agriculture for introducingthe Bill and for the interest he has shownin those engaged in this industry. It augurswell for the future when the Government,members, and those on this side of theHouse, can see eye to eye respecting thistype of legislation, which will be of benefiteventually to the whole community ofWestern Australia.

MR. OWEN (Darling Range) 14.36]:This BUTl aims to give certain statutorypowers to the Honey Pool which hasbeen in existence for quite a few years. Iraise no objection to it because everythingseems to be straightforward. My sole re-gret is that the debate was resumed onlytwo days after its introduction. I havenot had sufficient time to discuss the Billwith certain beekeepers in my electorate.I understand there are several reasons whyit is desired to pass the Bill through thisHouse as soon as possible, and for thisreason I have not asked for an adjourn-ment.

As described by the Minister and themember for South Perth, the honey in-dustry in this State has been on the upand up. My experience with bees andhoney goes back. many years. to the dayswhen as boys we used to scour the bushlooking for bee-hives in hollow trees andattempting to collect the honey. Themethods we adopted were not any worsethan those adopted by some commercialbeekeepers in those days. We took thehoneycomb together with any stray bees.We could not separate them and we used toput them into chaff bags and strain theminto tins. AS can be imagined, the qualitywas not very good and certainly net con-sistent. The commercial samples of honeyin those days were just as inconsistent.

In latpr years when some organisationwas arrived at and attempts were madeto standardise the quality of Western Aus-tralian honey, the pool was formed, andit has done a very good job ever since. Asan officer in the Department of Trade andCommerce, I had some experience of in-specting honey for export overseas. Al-though I knew very little about honey, thechief concern was that the containers com-plied with the regulations under theFederal Commerce (Trade Descriptions)Act. The honey had to be packed In tinsand cases. We did the job to the best ofour ability. Later on certain grades wereintroduced.

From what I can ascertain, WesternAustralia had difficulty in complying withthe better export grades of honey. Fromquite a lot of our native flora, the honeyproduced was rather dark in colour. I re-member discussing the position with a bee-keeper in Collie who had saved severalhundred gallons of honey that was about

the consistency and colour of molasses.He could not dispose of it for human con-sumption and had to get rid of it as stockfeed. Later on, when discussing this mat-ter with the officer in charge of the sec-tion of the Federal Department of Tradeand Commerce in Melbourne, which dealswith honey, I was given an insight intothe various export grades.

I was told that their first grade waslight in colour, with a strong body. Iunderstand that their best natural gradehoney came from the yellow box. Someof our native flora produce a nectar whichsupplies a rather dark coloured honey. Someof the best honey flows are obtained fromour eucalypts, including the red gum,and the best of the lot is from the nativekarri, which unfortunately does not pro-duce a heavy crop every year. The honeyfrom that is extremely high in quality andcompares favourably with the much-renowned yellow box honey of Victoria andNew South Wales.

The Honey Pool, by having large quan-tities of honey at its disposal, has, byjudicious blending, been able to maintaina regular supply of consistent quality sothat there is a demand for it overseas.One can understand quite readily that, ifeach beekeeper marketed his honey atvarious times during the year, he wouldhave a few tins of this and a few tins ofthat, and there would be difficulty in pro-ducing a good consistent line of honey.This is where the pool has been able to dosuch a great amount of good. I believethat Western Australian honey is now wellknown both here and in certain overseascountries. I feel that the Bill will proveto be of immense benefit to the industry.I1 regret that I have not had an oppor-tunity to discuss its provisions with someof my apiarist constituents, but in the-absence of criticism from them, I supportthe second reading.

Question put and passed.Bill read a second time.

In Committee.

Bill passed through Committee withoutdebate, reported without amendment andthe report adopted.

HILL-COAL MINE WORKERS(PENSIONS) ACT

AMENDMENT.Second Reading.

THE MINISTER FOR MINES (Hon. L.F. Kelly-Merredin-Yilgarn) [4.483 inmoving the second reading said: The pur-pose of the Bill is to oorrect any anoma louspositions which would otherwise arise be-cause of variations in the conditions ofemployment of mine workers at Collie,and to institute machinery amendmentsfor the improvement of the working ofthe pensions Act.

Following the granting of long serviceleave to mine workers, it has becomenecessary to amend the provision in the

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Act to allow for a mine worker to be law-fully absent from the industry during theperiod he is enjoying his long serviceleave. The Act as it stands would dis-qualify a mine worker in respect of periodsof continuous employment as affecting hisultimate retiring pension benefits, and itbecomes necessary, therefore, to providefor the recognition of his continuous em-ployment through the long service leaveperiod.

Likewise, the enactment of the NationalService Act, 195 1-53, by the Common-wealth has introduced an anomaly in thepensions Act. Where a mine worker isabsent on war service, he is regarded as"lawfully absent" from the industry, andhe is not required to contribute to thepension fund during that period. Thecoalmining unions have requested that theprinciple be applied also to the nationalservice trainee, and an amendment forsuch purpose has been included in theBill.

The question of earnings from the busi-ness or occupation, or from the personalemployment of a pensioner has comeunder review. Provision was originallymade in the Act that, where income wasreceived from the sources mentioned, anyamount in excess of £2 10s. Per weekearned by a pensioner, or his dependantsfor whom an additional payment wasmade out of the fund to the pensioner,would be deducted from the normal pen-sion payment. It has been found that theprovision in relation to a "business or oc-cupation" is extremely difficult to policeby the administration, and in no case todate has a pensioner been reduced on thataccount. It is recognised that a retiredmine worker has every right to retire tohis small property, built up in his sparetime, and to reap any small reward ac-cruing to him as a result of such oc-cupation.

However, the question of earnings fromprivate employment is of a differentcategory. When the provision for controlwas inserted in the Act It was at the in-stigation of the unions. It was claimedthat the avenue of private employment atCollie should not be filled by a retiredpensioner at the expense of a person whodid not enjoy pension benefits, and therate of £2 10s, was fixed as the reasonablefigure which could be earned without re-striction. Any earnings over that amountshould be curtailed as they would not onlyaffect the field of available employmentbut would also cause the cancellation orreduction of a Commonwealth social ser-vice pension with the corresponding in-crease in payments out of the Coal MineWorkers' Pension Fund.

In view of the present circumstances,and by that I am referring to the reduc-tion of hands by the owners of the coalcompanies, it is apparent that the prin-ciple of maintaining the field of employ-ment at Collie for people other than

pensioners should be carried on. It isrecognised that the cost of living wouldwarrant an increase in the amount fixedat present and it is proposed to increasethe allowable earning figure to £5 perweek.

By doing that the Commonwealth pen-sion would not be affected because thevariation in allowable income under theCommonwealth means test last year willpermit the increased figure for a marriedman: and there would be retained in theAct the provision for the curtailment offull-time work by a retired mine worker.The present proposed fixing of a weeklyearning is different in the ease of a blindpensioner. it is felt that such a personis deserving of -sympathy because of hisaffliction, and, in line with the Common-wealth, it is proposed to place no limit onthe amount such a person may be ableto receive from any employment he maybe in a position to undertake.

Other provisions listed are machineryonly, and are designed to smooth the pathof administration. The items concernedare the provision to write off irrecoverablearrears of contributions where the pen-sions tribunal is satisfied they cannot becollected and for the implementing of astandard practice where, for accountingreasons, the owner pays a contributiononly where the mine worker Pays his con-tribution. In the main, the provisions havebeen approved by the coalmining unionsand those people connected with the in-dustry at Collie. There is not a great dealin this small measure, which I commendto the House. I move-

That the Bill be now read a secondtime.

On motion by Mr. May, debate ad-journed.

BILL-JURY ACT AMENDMIENT(No. 1).

Second Reading.

Debate resumed from the 13th Septem-ber.

HON. A. F. WATTS (Stirling) [4.561:I must confess that I approach this meas-ure with extremely mixed feelings. Myviews are that it is desirable to amend thelaw in relation to juries to allow womento sit on juries, provided they are willingto do so. I do not think that any attemptat compulsion, which seems to be the in-tention in this measure, should be con-templated by the Legislature.

The member for Mt. Lawley, when ad-,dressing himself to the Bill the other night,made, I1 thought, most effective use of'the figures that had been supplied to himby the Minister for Justice, because hewas able to show that of all the male.

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residents of the metropolitan area-ap- indeed, would be detrimentally affected inproximately 150,000; perhaps more-therewere only in the vicinity of 5,500 who wereon the jury list, and therefore liable tobe called up for jury service. Of course.the present jury law provides for a greatnumber of exemptions, occupational andother, which I think have been amplyjustified over the years. They have, how-ever, served very strongly indeed to en-sure that only a small fraction of themale population is compellable to givejury service.

Yet, as I understand the terms of theMinister's Bill, practically every womanWith, I think, some age limit-and it is awonder that is in the measure in viewof the Minister's views on other aspects-is compellable to give jury service. I mustconfess that I do not like it. I would bequite prepared, and I always have been,to agree to a Bill to allow a woman tobe registered for jury service, and be com-pellable once registered, provided her regi-stration was a voluntary act.

I' have no desire whatever to excludetbe womenfolk from service on a jury, butI ami well aware that there is a greatnumber-I would say proportionatelygreater in percentage than would be thecase with males-who would be most un-willing to accept duty, particularly in cer-tain types of criminal cases. When onerealises the difference in temperament, insentiment and in many other ways, be-tween the two sexes, one can readily ap-preciate that what would be an easy Jobfor a man, occasioning him only normalconcern, would be mentally devastating-

The Premier: What is this tempera-mental business?

Hon A. F. WATTS: -to a woman ofcertain characteristics. I think the Prem-ier knows as much about it as most of usdo, and I do not Propose to go into thedetails even for his benefit. If he does notknow-I am quite certain he does-the dif -ferent reaction of the average woman-asagainst that of a man-then I am mostsurprised, in relation to a similar set ofcircumstances. I say that it could be ab-solutely devastating to some women to beasked to sit as a member of the jury oncertain types of criminal cases, or. worsestill, perhaps in the rare cases where juriesare still used in certain instances incoroner's inquiries.

If we are going to be reasonable in thesematters and take into consideration whatafter all are approaching the fundamentalcharacteristics, and if we allow, as I do,that the claim of certain women-a sub-stantial number perhaps-to be allowed tosit on juries is a reasonable one, and agreethat provision for it should be made. Ido not think that justifies a measure ofcompulsion which could extend very easilyto many womenfolk who would not desireto Participate in such things and who,

in certain types of criminal cases.So I suggest that we do be reasonable

in this matter. Let us all agree, as Iwill heartily agree, that there ought tobe a way found whereby a woman whowants to sit on juries may be allowed todo so. and that we should smooth thepath for her as rapidly as we can. Justwhat system should be adopted is a dif-ficult matter to decide. This Legisla-ture appears to have tried several methodsin the last few years without much suc-cess; one House agrees and the other doesnot, and vice versa.

I notice that the member for Mt. Lawley,apparently following on his analysis theother night of the numbers of men andwomen which, as far as he can estimate,would be eligible and required to serveunder the existing legislation, is seekingto incorporate in the Bill some method ofqualification which is based on enrolmentas an elector of the Legislative Council.That, I suppose, is going to make avail-able for the jury list about as many womenin the metropolitan district as there are.according to the answer given by the Min-ister, men enrolled on the list at present.and r'ather than have a general compulsionon womenfolk-such as I have already dis-cussed-applied, I would be Prepared tosupport such a proposal provided, of course.that even the woman so qualified shouldnot be required to sit if she had firstregistered an objection, because I thinkthat is paramount to everything else.

There is no question whatever about itin my mind, that some women for tem-peramental and personal reasons, wouldbe far worse off in health and would insome cases be done permanent injury ifobliged, no matter whether they werequalified to vote at the Legislative Coun-cil elections or not, to sit upon a juryin certain circumstances, and I would neverbe a party to driving an unwilling horseto water of that kind. But I am preparedto accept any proposition which is goingto enable those women who want to siton. juries to take part in such proceedings.

In my opinion the best course to pur-sue, if the Minister is willing to pursue It,is to provide that within a certain time afterthe Act is passed, if it is passed, womenon the roll of the various districts shouldbe enabled to inform him that they donot want to sit and immediately be struckoff the list for all time. There should beadequate notice given in order that theymight have full opportunity of becomingaware of the law and be able to have them-selves struck off, and from that time for-ward they should not be 'required to beon the list at all.

As others became of age and were en-rolled, within so many weeks or monthsof their becoming enrolled, they should beentitled also to informi the Minister that

[15 September, 1055.165

they desired to be struck off the roll andfrom that time onwards no further in-terest should be taken in them by thesheriff or any other officer of the CrownLaw Department, as far as making themsit on juries was concerned, because theywould be for all time exempt. That seemsto me, in general terms, the way to ap-proach this matter. There may be im-provements on that principle which couldbe put forward and I would be only toohappy to accept them so long as they didfollow the principle that no woman whodid not want to take part in these pro-ceedings should be compelled to do so.

That is my view of the matter. As tothe general detail of the measure I am notvery greatly concerned. The aspect I amconcerned about is the principle and Ihave already expressed, as clearly as I can,my views on that subject. In the hope thatsome suitable amendment will be madeafter the second reading has been agreedto, I support the Bill and I trust thatthe Committee stage of the measure willproduce something of a workable naturewithin the confines of my belief on thissubject. If that does not happen, I willhave my opportunity on the third reading.

MIR. JOHNSON (Leederville) [5.9]: 1have made a few inquiries from womenprominent in matters affecting their sexon the Question of women sitting on juriesand I think the consensus of opinionamong those ladies is not that most womenwish to serve on juries, but that they dowish to be treated as the equals of men.I feel that that is one point which theBill does not meet any more fully thanthe proposition put up by the Leader ofthe Country Party.

If I judge correctly, the majority ofwomen who are at all interested in thismatter-and that is a very small numberof womren in our community-are con-cerned solely with the equality of rights,and if a man is to be compellable I feelsure that they would prefer the sameprovision for women. By saying that, I donot suggest that all women are of thatopinion, but I fancy it is the opinion ofthose who are prominent in women's org-anisations, and they are the folk who areasking for this type of legislation not onlyin relation to juries but also in relationto a, lot of other public matters.

We are all aware that because of familyresponsibilities in particular, it is nieces-sary that women should be able to avoidjury service during the time they are tiedup with those responsibilities; that is,while the children are young. Of course,that does not apply to single women orwomen who are responsible only for theirhusbands any more than it applies to men.A man with a family is not able to avoidjury service simply because he has afamily. But I will agree that mothers

[24]

with young families dependent upon themmust be given a method of avoiding dutiessuch as jury service during the time theyare responsible for their families. We areall in agreement on that point and I feelsure that the women's organisations willbe, too. But I disagree, and I fancy thewomen's organisations disagree also withthe idea that women should be able toavoid responsibility for jury service simplybecause of a whim.

If it is fair that women should be ableto avoid jury service because of the natureof the evidence, because they have a head-ache or for some other minor reason, thesame provision must be made availablefor men also. If a woman is to be non-compellable in relation to jury service,then I think that we must, in all justice,make the same provision available to menbecause I find that men are not anxiousto serve on juries. Inquiries from officialsand others who have some connection withthe formation of juries will inform anymember that the first reaction of prac-tically every person who is called for juryservice is to find a way of avoiding it.

I am sure that the average femaleresponse to a call to serve on a jury willbe the same as that of the average male-a desire to avoid it. If the suggestionthat women can avoid jury service simplyby writing a letter is agreed to, I thinkthat we can be sure that 90 per cent. ofwomen called for jury service at any futuretime will immediately write in and so avoidit.

Mr. Bovell: That is how it should be.Mr. JOHNSON: If it is fair for women, it

is fair for men, too.Mr. Bovell: You want to force women

to serve on juries.Mr. JOHNSON: In response to that

Interjection I would say that if it is fairfor women, it is fair for men also. If wedo not want to force women to serve onjuries we should not force men to serveeither.

Mr. Bovell: Rubbish !Mr. JOHNSON: If a man could avoid

jury service by writing a letter on receiptof a summons, how many men does thehon. member think we would get for ourjuries? We would need a panel of 500 inorder to get 12 good men and true.

Hon. A. V. H. Abbott: We would, too.Mr. JOHNSON: In answer to the argu-

ment put forward by the member for Mt.Lawley that the provisions of this Billwould put 105,000 women on the jury list-

Hon. A. V. R. Abbott: I did not say that.I said that number would be eligible.

Mr. JOHNSON: Well, it would make105,000 women eligible for the jury list.and yet there are only 5,000 men on thelist. I would say, in answer to the hon.member's argument, that he has tried very

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hard to misrepresent the situation because might be undesirable. I do not say thatthere must be over 100,000 people eligibleto go on the jury list now. The reasonwhy there are only 5,000 on the list at themoment is because that is the size of thelist prepared. It is easy to expand it:everybody who is eligible is not on thelist. There is a large number of exemp-tions for jury service at present, includingall J's.P., civil servants and a number ofother categories

This query arises in my mind: If acivil servant is not eligible to sit on a jury,does the wife of a civil servant get a similarexemption? It would appear to me to beequally logical. If a woman J.P. is eligibleto sit on the Bench, why is she, at themoment, not eligible to sit on a jury?That in itself is an anomaly. If. as is thepractice-I do not know whether it isactually law but it is certainly the custom-a bank officer is not eligible to be addedto the jury list, does a bank officer's wileget priority over him? As I am, to someextent, an equalitarian and not purely afeminist, I fancy that if a husband is notsuitable to go on the list, we should makeprovision to ensure that his wife Is notconsidered suitable for the list otherwiseit might lead to family trouble!

I support the Bill but, like most of thosewho have spoken, I am not 100 per cent.satisfied with it. I think that in Com-mittee we might, between us all, work outsomething a little more practicable.

THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE (Hon.E. Nulsen-Eyre-in reply) [5.181: ThisBill is well known to the various women'sorganisations and they support It. It willnot make it compulsory for women toserve on juries because any woman en-rolled can write in and ask for an exemp-tion. It seems to me to be a most fairand equitable measure. Women say theywant equality but, as the member forLeederville has just pointed out, it wouldbe impossible to place them on the samebasis as men for a number of reasons.

I do not think the number of women,mentioned by the member for Mt. Lawley,comes into the argument at all, becausethe male jury list, as pointed out by themember for Leederville, could be greatlyincreased. We know that. However, if agreat number of women apply for exemp-tion, as they will have the right to dounder this measure, the female jury listmight be much smaller than the malelist.

Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: Great num-bers of women will apply for exemption.

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: Ofcourse they will, and that is only proper.However, if we provide that a woman'sname can only be added to the jury listif she makes application, very few willdo so and probably we will get only a fewcurious women to serve as Jurors, and they

all of them would be undesirable. Prob-ably we would get quite a few intelligentwomen who are public spirited.

Hon. A. V. R. Abbott: Will they beable to write in immediately after the pass-ing of the Hill, or will they have to waituntil you proclaim an area?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: Thereis nothing to prevent them from writingIn immediately. On the other hand, themember for Mt. Lawley has an amend-ment on the notice paper which providesfor women to be enrolled as jurors onthe same basis of qualification as thoseenrolled as voters for the Legislative Coun-cil. If that amendment is agreed to, wewill deprive a number of intellectual andintelligent women from serving as jurors.There might be quite a few at the uni-versity and, of course, there are alsowomen school-teachers who would nothave that qualification.

Hon. Sir Ross MeLarty: If the Billpasses, will it not mean that you will havea qualification for men and none forwomen?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: Theywill be eligible to serve as jurors if theyare entitled to have their names on theLegislative Assembly roll.

I-on. Sir Ross McLarty: That is nota qualification.

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: Theywill come under the Electoral Act as faras their characters are concerned.

Hon. Sir Ross Mctarty: In regard tocharacter?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: Yes,in regard to character.

Hon. Sir ROSS MeLarty: The ElectoralAct has nothing to do with character,

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: Imean the Jury Act. Also, there are quitea number who are not eligible to havetheir name on the Assembly roll, such asthose persons who have committed acrime, for example. I have given everyconsideration to the Bill, and it seems tome to be the fairest way to enrol every-one on the basis of their qualification tobe enrolled on the Legislative Assemblyroll. It would make them subject to thelaws of the country and, if they are notdesirous of sitting as a juror, they wouldhave the right to apply for exemption forthe time being. After two years, shouldthey find that their family obligationshave been lessened, they could make afresh application to be enrolled as jurors.

Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: Are you stillgoing to retain the same qualification formen?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: ThisBill is not dealing with men but withwomen. If the qualification for men is

115 September, 1955.]

to be altered, another Bill will have to beintroduced. I bold that the Bill decreesno compulsion by any Means because awoman can apply for exemption. If wepass the measure in such a form thatthey would be requested to apply to havetheir names placed on the jury list. I amsure that we would get very few womenjurors. In England they are compelledto serve unless they obtain exemption forhealth reasons or some other good reason.

Hon. A. V. R. Abbott: In England donot both men and women have to behouseholders to qualify to serve as jurors?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: I donot think so.

Mr. Johnson: You have to be a humanbeing.

Hon. A. V. R. Abbott: Where?Mr. Johnson: In England.The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: There

is not much to reply to, and the Housewould be wise to accept the Bill as it is.There is no compulsion in it and a womancan apply for exemption if she so desires.If such exemption is granted and latershe can see her way clear to serve, shecan make a fresh application to have hername placed on the jury list after a periodof two years.

Mr. McCulloch: Will one applicationexempt a woman for all time?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: Yes,but if she finds, after two years. she canserve, she can make a fresh application.However, if she does not re-apply, theexemption stands for all time.

Question put and passed.'Bill read a second time.

In Committee.Mr. J. Hegney in the Chair; the Minis-

ter for Justice in charge of the Bill.Clauses I to 3-agreed to:Clause 4-Sections 5A and 5B added:Hon. A. V. H. ABBOTT: I1 move an

amendment-That all words after the word "by"

in line 14. page 2, down to and includ-ing the word "residence" in line 32be struck out and the following in-serted in lieu:-

repealing and re-enacting Sec-tion five as follows:-

5. (1) Every person (exceptas hereinafter excepted) be-tween the ages of twenty-oneyears and sixty years who-

(a) is enrolled on the rollof electors entitled tovote at the election ofmembers of the Legis-lative Council: and

(b) being a woman, residesin a proclaimed area,

Is qualified and liable to serve

as a common juror in all civiland criminal proceedings inthe proclaimed area within aradius of thirty-six miles fromthe residence of such person.

During my speech on the second readingI1 made my reason for this amendmentquite clear. My desire is to have equityin the qualifications required for bothmale and femnale jurors. Some reasonablelist of the names of members of the com-munity has to be compiled, and in myview the only practical way to do this isto accept the roll that contains thenames of responsible people who arewidely spread. As the Minister has said.there may be many women who are highlyqualified to sit on juries who will be inelig-ible if this amendment is agreed to. On theother hand, there would be a large numberof men who are highly qualified to sit onjuries but who are excluded from so doingat present for some reason or another.

The Minister for Justice; Men must havedifferent qualifications.

Hon. A. V. R, ABBOTT: Yes, I know, butI was desirous of wiping out that differenceand putting everyone on the same basisso that there would be no anomalies. Myown view is that only those who applyshould be placed on the jury list. That wasthe proposal I submitted in an amendingBill which I introduced previously, but itwas rejected in this Chamber. I acceptedthe fact that the principle was not accept-able to members and I submit this amend-ment as an alternative.

Later on, the Government may perhapsthink fit to introduce a Bill bringing thewhole jury Act up to date. I think thatis necessary. In that case they may cometo the conclusion that even wider eligibilitythan I have suggested for men would bedesirable. I would have no objection tothat. It might be that only a man who ison the Legislative Assembly roll or a cer-tain section of it should be selected by lotand should be eligible. It would be impos-sible from an administrative point of viewto bring 300,000 people on to the jury list.It would also be quite unnecessary.

The Government might evolve a schemewhereby from year to year certain sectionsof the community could be selected fromthose on the Assembly roll. I was not in aposition to frame my Bill in that manner.It would have had to be far more generaland it would have involved the expenditureof public funds which would have made itout of order. I think this is a fair com-promise and it could be worked satisfac-torily for the time being.

The CHAIRMAN: I have given consi-deration to the hon. member's proposedamendment and I must rule it out of orderon the ground that it is not strictly inaccordance with the subject matter of thc.

[ASSEMBLY.)

Bill. I would draw the hon. members atten-tion to Standing Order No. 281 whichstates--

Any amendment may be made to aclause provided the same be relevantto the subject matter of the Bill, orpursuant to any instruction, and beotherwise in conformity with Rulesand Orders of the House;

If the hon. member looks at StandingOrder No 2, which deals with interpreta-tions he will find that-

"Subject matter of a Bill" means theprovisions of the Bill as printed, reada second time, and referred to theCommittee.

Clause 4 of the Bill deals only with thequestion of proposing to amend the Act byproviding for women jurors; it makes noreference whatever to men. The Title ofthe Bill may appear to be general butnevertheless discussion of the clause of theBill is definitely confined to its subjectmatter, and nowhere In the measure Isreference made to men. The hon, member'samendment proposes to delete the newsection and it would also alter the quail-fleations. of men as provided in the Act.For those reasons I have no alternativebut to rule the amendment out of order.

Dissent from Chairman's Ruling.Hon. A. V. R. ABBOTT: Then I must

dissent from your ruling, Mr. Chairman.

[The Speaker resumed the Chair.]The Chairman having stated the dissent,H-on. A. V. R. Abbott: I submit that my

amendment is within the subject matterof the Bill. It proposes to deal with thosequalified to serve as jurors and the princi-Pal matter dealt with is the qualificationsof those eligible to serve ont juries. Section5 of the Act deals with Qualifications andin the marginal note it says "Qualificationsand liability to serve on any juries." Thereis a further margins! note which states"'womnen qualified to be jurors." So at leastthe Parliamentary Draftsman consideredthat he was dealing with those personsQualified to serve on juries. Section 5 dealswith those who are qualified and so doesClause 4 of the Bill. It deals with personsQualified to sit on juries.

The Minister for Justice: Women only.not men.

Hon. A. V. R. Abbott: The question isthe qualification of a juror. It is statedthat they may be of the female as well aLsthe male sex. This deals purely withqualifications. Women of 60 were men-tioned but so might have women of 25 beenmentioned. The whole essence of the Billis the qualifications for jurors. I rememberYou, Mr. Speaker, giving a ruling pre-viously and you said the following-'

I do not consider the particular sec-tion dealt with. I consider the subjectmatter of the Bill and what it pro-poses to deal with. If that subject

matter deals with more than one sec-tion of the Act, in my opinion allsections relevant to the subject mattermay be dealt with.

I say we are dealing with the qualificationsof a juror and that I am entitled to dealwith those qualifications. I submit thatmy amendment is in order.

Mr. J. Hegney: My reason for rulingthe proposed amendment of the memberfor Mt. Lawley out of order was, as I havealready mentioned, that it did not strictlyconform to the subject matter of the Bill.I drew the hon. member's attention toStanding Order No. 281 which say--

Any amendment may be made to aclause provided the same be relevant tothe subject matter of the Bill, or pur-suant to any instruction, and be other-wise in conformity with Rules andOrders of the House;

I also referred the hon. member toStanding Order No. 2 which dealswith interpretations. The subject matterof a Bill means the provisions p1 the Billas printed, read a second time and re-f erred to the Committee. As far as I cansee, the subject matter of the Bill referredto the Committee deals specifically andonly with the addition of two provisionsdealing with women jurors. Although thereis a general Title to the Bill, neverthelessthe subject matter is confined to theclauses. For those reasons, I ruled thatthe amendment of the member for Mt.Lawley was not strictly in accordance withthe provisions of the Bill.

Hon. A. F. Watts: I am inclined to thinkthat this is a borderline case in whichyou, Mr. Speaker, might be able to decidethat the amendment could be discussedby the Committee. The statements of themember for Mt. Lawley should be takeninto consideration because of the wordingof Clauses 5 and 10. The Bill proposesto substitute for the word "man" the word"Person". I submit that is all the memberfor Mt. Lawley seeks to do in the amend-ment before the Committee.

Mr. Speaker: I think this question wasdealt with when the Bill was introducedlast session. First of all, the member forMt. Lawley is confusing the Act with theBill. We are not dealing with the Act.but only with the Bill. As such, I findthat un 'der Standing Orders discussion oramendments must be restricted to the sub-ject matter of the Bill, irrespective ofwhich sections in the Act are dealt with.On a perusal of the Bill, I find that itdeals solely and wholly with the qualifics.-tions of women jurors. If that needs tobe done, a special Bill should be intro-duced.

The member for Mt. Lawley said thatthe Bill does not deal with the qualifica-tions of men, but that it could have. Thatis the whole point. It could have, but it

[20 September. 1955.1 619

does not, so I consider that we are re-stricted in the amendments to those deal-ing solely with the qualifications of women.As stated by the Leader of the CountryParty, Clauses 5 and 10 are merely conse-quential amendments upon including quali-fications of women in the Jury Act. Thatbeing the case, every subsequent refer-ence to "man" in the Act must be amendedso as to include women. The easiest wayto do that is by altering the word "man"to "person". On consideration of the wholematter, I have not the slightest doubt thatthis is not a borderline case, and I mustuphold the ruling of the Chairman ofCommittees.

Committee Resumed.Hon. A. V. R. A13BOTT: Subsection (2)

of Proposed new Section 5A provides thata woman qualified and liable to serve asa juror may cancel her liability to serve byservice of written notice on the sheriff.On the reading of that, a woman can doso at any time.

The Minister for Justice: Up to thetime she is sworn in.

Hon. A. V. R. ABBOTT: I do not thinkCrown Law opinion is to that effect. Ido not see why she cannot, because thereis reference to a next time. Subsection(4) says that a woman may from timeto time cancel her liability to serve.

The Minister for Justice: There isa clause dealing with that.

Hon. A. V. R. ABBOTT: T know thata judge may excuse a woman at any timebefore a jury is sworn in, but the proposednew section does not provide that awoman, five minutes before being swornin, cannot give notice.

The Minister for Justice: She can,until she is sworn in.

Hon. A. V. Rt. ABBOTT: I am not surewhether she is unable to do that eventhen. If one were to read the two sub-sections together, the implication wouldbe that in addition to notification to thesheriff, the judge could excuse a womanfrom service. There is nothing to saythat after a woman has been enmpanelledshe cannot walk out.

I understand the system of selectingjuries to be as follows:-The summoningofficer empanels the jury: by this, all hedoes is to select certain names from ajury list. The selection is the impanelling.He sends out notices, and he may, underthe existing Act, excuse some people, inwhich event he strikes their names fromthe panel. After he has dealt with thematter, he hands in the list of the remain-ing names to the court or Judge whoissued the precept for the jury. Afterthe list has been handed to the judge, Icontend that a woman could decline toserve. The object of my amendment wasto make it clear.

The Minister for Justice: That prac-tically means the same as what is con-tained in this clause. Once a woman isempanelled, she is sworn in.

Hon. A. V. Rt. ABBOTT: She is notsworn in until days afterwards.

Clause put and passed.Clauses 5 to 8--agreed to.Clause 9-Section 20 repealed and re-

enacted:The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE: I move

an amendment-That the word "district" in line 28,

page 4, be struck out and the word"districts" inserted in lieu.

Later I shall move for the insertion ofthe word "and" between the words "Perth-Fremantle", and for the deletion of thereference to the Swan magisterial dis-trict which no longer exists.

Amendment put and passed.On motions by the Minister for Justice,

clause further amended by inserting theword "and" between the words "Perth-Fremantle" in lines 28 and 29, and bystriking out the words "and Swan" in line29, page 4.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.Clause 10. Title-agreed to.Bill reported with amendments.

House adjourned at 5.55 pa.

Tuesday, 20th September, 1955.CONTENTS.

Electoral, swearing-in of member ..Questions : Traffic Act, (a) disallowance of

regulations and protection of public(b) re-gazettal of major roads

City of Perth, availability of zone map....Police Force, resignations .. ..

Questions without notice, procedure ..Motions : Betting Control Act, to disallow

licensing and registration regulationsWar Service Land Settlement Scheme

Act, to disallow improvement andappeal regulations .

Bill : Rents and Tenancies Emergency Pro-visions Act Amendment, Sr.

Commonwealth and State Housing Sup-plementary Agreement, Ir.... ..

Honey Pool, Ir..... .... .... ....Address-in-reply, eleventh day

Speakers on Address-Hon. H. L. Roche ..Hon. E. M. Heenan .... .. .Hon. Sir Charles LathamHon. G. Bennetts ..The Minister for the North West ..

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The PRESIDlENT took the Chair at4.30 p.m., and read Prayers,