CyberForum@ArtCenter 03/01/2000, 1:30 pm PST

******************************************************** Active Worlds chat session: Wed Mar 1, 2000 1:20 PM ********************************************************

CyberForum with Brenda Laurel on Wednesday, March 1st, 1:30 PM PST.ommm: hi folks"sgp": hellogaga: hello!BrendaL: Hey hey Michael, I'm here - a bit disoriented!"bjorn": ok!godster: hi all!"Laertes": hi all"skejs": hi everyoneommm: hey Laertes, it's been a whilenomad: hi skejsgodster: hi skejs![Hermes]: Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, Californiaommm: uh-oh! there goes Hermes again...godster: shut up, hermes!nomad: you can't say accd

ommm: whenever you say "accd" in your chat, he/she pipes up[Hermes (who is a bot)]: Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, Californiagaga: let's get him to say something else, like, Polly wants a cracker or something moreaptommm: Herm the progaganda machineImmigration Officer: You are being joined by BrendaL.ommm: okay, avatars, it's time to begin today's ForumBrendaL: What an odd looking crew!ommm: we are pleased, no, delighted to have Brenda Laurel with us"bjorn": umeågaga: applausenemo: clap clapBrendaL: pleasure's all mine!Elphaba: clap"Laertes": appluse"skejs": klapgodster: huzzah!"aurora lovelock": clap clapommm: as you probably know, Brenda has had a big influence on interfaceommm: design and VR"Laertes": callp clapBrendaL: blushgaga: lolommm: we are going to visit the sites on the right web pageommm: to hear Brenda's topics for today, soommm: let's all begin by jumping around the Blue Tubes at 9.1S 3.1W -3.3aommm: or you can simply join me in a momentommm: before talking, maybe we should each put our virtual bodies through the bluehoopsommm: if you go "into" one of the blue tubes, you will .... well, try it"aurora lovelock": yepgaga: those coords din't bring me here...ommm: i'm headed into a tube!

"sgp": oh yeah!!mjson: ok?gaga: it's a warp ridegodster: whoa!nemo: a slideBrendaL: Hey that's kinda trippy!ommm: yes, and it is indeed a warped ride ;-)gaga: not Disney, but maybe better in its own wayommm: someone say "Dizzy"?godster: i've been translated!nemo: Dzny would have a song that would lodge in your brain"sgp": is there some proximity sensor acting?ommm: there's an idea! we need a theme song (Ally McBeal?)BrendaL: You guys are getting too academic for me!gaga: lol"bjorn": wowommm: sounds like Brenda is warmed up and ready to rap, go BrendaBrendaL: Who made the blue hoop?ommm: a student by the name of Melanie Dunn godster: ommmommm: we made it together BrendaL: Cool. So the first thing I notice is that this is like a split brain experiment.Words and picturees don't go together so easily here."bjorn": nodommm: very true

nomad: interesting pointommm: definitely chewing gum, and walking and flying"sgp": agreedgaga: but time is also on your side for switchingBrendaL: What do you mean?"sgp": can you see others 'sliding'?BrendaL: yepgaga: that the lag between entry of text allows for action in between, like getting a snackat the commercial

BrendaL: Is anyone here interested in spaces that are captured from the "real" world?"sgp": captured?nemo: does the sliding that is triggered by our av presence give us presence?mjson: what kind of spaces?ommm: most worlds in ActiveWorlds are bad replicas"Laertes": waiting for your point"sgp": i agree with ommmBrendaL: "captured" could be in terms of shape, sound, video, . . ."Laertes": but i turn off the sounds now"sgp": yes brendaL, that sounds interesting, the inconnectedness...BrendaL: I have a real problem with the geometry of made-up spaces that seem soabstract . . .

gaga: sounds like an intro for horse heavennemo: shall we go?ommm: okay, everyone to Horse Heaven"sgp": yes, should have some context, whether through flows, activity, time, something"bjorn": all spaces are defined in relation to something in the real world - it's just aquestion of whether you start from scratch in building something or if you reshapesomething capturedommm: go to Teleport on top menu, and in "To" box below, put 7s 7w 1a"skejs": you loose the sense of geography here when you teleport all the time. Take yourtime. Learn to walk from place to place :)godster: skejs has a point"bjorn": but how do you know where the places are?BrendaL: Show me the horses.[Hermes]: Place your cursor on one of the color balls, and it will tell you where a nodeis. Clicking the ball teleports you to the node.ommm: okay, Hermes, cool itgaga: I am next to the horsesnemo: Brenda hasn't met Hermes yetBrendaL: Hermes is a charming individual, if a bit structured.ommm: she's not missing a botgaga: lolgodster: boo"bjorn": what colored balls?

BrendaL: So about this body stuff . . .BrendaL: When we started working on Placeholder many years agoBrendaL: we found that we could not walk in the first version of the world...BrendaL: some people liked it. . .BrendaL: especially the Las Vegas entrepreneur types.godster: ughBrendaL: Finally my husband put it in the HMD and we all agreed that we were sick."Laertes": hmd?BrendaL: HMD - head-mounted display.BrendaL: So we started from scratch and used projected video on wireframes to matchthe landscape contours.BrendaL: Got some 3D for free, as it were.BrendaL: A real fun part was figuring how to fly like a bird. How would you think ofdoing that (interface)?"bjorn": hmm...gaga: arm flapping, or suspended pants...godster: seeing from a different perspective?BrendaL: Lots of men fly by doing hydrofoil type things with their bodies - some jumpup like Superman -BrendaL: but it turns out that everybody understands flapping except a computer withno sense of the past.BrendaL: You have to know where a wing WAS to know that it has moved. . . aninteresting problem . . .[Hermes]: Place your cursor on one of the color balls, and it will tell you where a nodeis. Clicking the ball teleports you to the node.

BrendaL: so we had to build the system a memory in order to fly.nemo: sort of "teaching it" eh?"aurora lovelock": memory into spaceBrendaL: Yes - you are flapping, have flapped. Sensors on both hands to controlacceleration, inclination of head to control direction.Elphaba: What about bird vision?

BrendaL: Interesting - to be realistic, if you were a raptor, you couldn't see much if itdidn't move.BrendaL: In Placeholder we tried to do snake vision (infrared receptors in pit vipers).BrendaL: I always thought compound eyes would be way cool.godster: indeed!nemo: are we then just taking memory/known experiences and reconstituting them here?BrendaL: I have no memory of flying, but it's something I always wanted to try.BrendaL: "Just reconsituting" sounds a bit reductive.Elphaba: did you simulate wind, and drag?"aurora lovelock": it would be nice to transform memorynemo: transform memory sounds more like what I meantBrendaL: We didn't do wind and drag, but we did some fun stuff to help people land.gaga: At the end of the revised edition of Computers as Theatre, you say (more or less)thatVR is not for replicating the world better, but rather engaging with a better worldHow about here?BrendaL: What do you mean, "how about here?"

gaga: Well virtual worlds are not VR, but rather something elseBrendaL: Well, Michael, I could natter on with tales from the cybercrypt, or perhapsyou might be an emcee for a while ...ommm: skejs is going to shepherd us to the next waystation..ommm: which is vanishing brides of confused reality"skejs": ok everyone face north. lets gogodster: ready, s!ommm: follow skejsnemo: is this travelling without moving?mjson: right behind you"skejs": now east"sgp": how do you know what is north"skejs": you can see the direction above the main menuommm: scenic tour, skejsBrendaL: I'm stalking you...ommm: use your shift key to penetrate walls"Clive Warren": hello peops - someone hold my hand :-)"Clive Warren": ok - can see you all now. This is my first time - hi BrendaBrendaL: Hi Clive!"Clive Warren": Mondo 2000 brought me to this place - in a round about way....

"skejs": thanks for the companygodster: we're here"aurora lovelock": way hey thanks skejsommm: yippeee! we made it! thanks, skejs, you're a pathfindergodster: what did you learn about embodiment from reconstructing aninal movement?BrendaL: Getting into another animal's sensorium is a great way to become AWARE ofhaving a body at all.BrendaL: Hmm, I feel confused.Zarko: what"s going onBrendaL: Is it a gender thing?gaga: or a Marcel Duchamp thing?BrendaL: hee heehee"aurora lovelock": reminds me of duchamps' large glassommm: well, these avatars served for a real-life wedding several years agoBrendaL: did it last?ommm: well, not exactly these avatars, -- we've lessened the avatar's soliditygaga: do we know?Zarko: hello everyonemjson: dunnoBrendaL: OK, so a gender tidbit - in our research we found that women usuallydescribed VR as taking their bodies into other spaces ...BrendaL: while men typically talked about out of body experiences ...BrendaL: what do you folks think?godster: i'm a brain in a jar kind of guyElphaba: interesting....

"Clive Warren": Hmm well I feel fairly centered in my body until I take a world view...BrendaL: Men also seem to have greater tolerance for multiple simultaneous POVs..."bjorn": not me ;-)ommm: can you describe the psychological feel (of the difference)?"aurora lovelock": i'm definitely transportedgodster: bring on the chambered eyes!Elphaba: what type of study did you conduct?gaga: probably I feel it's like a spirit body in another space, astral projectionBrendaL: We interviewed about 120 people who spent time in placeholder, and alsotalked to folks who did Osmose.BrendaL: I think it may have something to do with males being more acclimated tovehicle simulations...Elphaba: maybe a preference for types of metaphors?"sgp": my degree of bodiness seems related to my activity: reading, moving, scrolling,etc.Zarko: idiots morons"Clive Warren": Hi Zarko - bumped into you earlierBrendaL: Hey Zarko, lightenup!gaga: but both of those projects really used a body interface, unlike this (so far)BrendaL: True. Do you feel any embodiment using a screen like this?ommm: I'm partially somewhere else (on a chair near a window)"bjorn": yes, flying around i'm in another body. just watching i'm in my own"sgp": how does this dichotomy affect the making of virtual spaces?"bjorn": not reallygodster: no

BrendaL: Well, I think it's fun to make men stay in their bodies :-)"Laertes": not now, but later when i think back"bjorn": ;-)gaga: when you sail across a big landscape, especially using shift AND control, it can getpretty heady"bjorn": what does shift and ctrl do???godster: my eyes, the tips of my (typing) fingers are getting a workout"aurora lovelock": yes, but i need my own avatar maybe that would make me feel reallyin the spacegaga: makes you go fast through thingsBrendaL: shifting control makes it someone else's problem..."sgp": i think the environmental sounds helps to engage my body"Clive Warren": well going up and down was fun - now how about forwards...Elphaba: I think OnLive affords a greater sense of physical embodimentnemo: we've tried to be more embodied by interacting w/other avs.gaga: what's that?BrendaL: How many of your folks have used head-mounted displays?gaga: me"bjorn": hands up"Laertes": not menemo: For instance, I'm trying to perch on skej's shoulder"sgp": nope"aurora lovelock": yepgodster: fraid not

nomad: not menemo: nopemjson: not heElphaba: yep"skejs": hereommm: <raising wing tip>"foyle": medskog: nopeacroon: nope"sgp": do the sony video monitor glasses count?godster: swimming goggles?BrendaL: They seem to be out of favor at the moment . . . yes the sony glasses count,but narrow field of view...BrendaL: I think it's a shame that SGI et al are moving to a theatrical space (chairs, bigscreen) ..."Clive Warren": same down scenario here"sgp": yeah, i saw Jordan Crandal's piece with them?"Clive Warren": How about the olympus glasses?BrendaL: I think that real engagement in the space is amped by being able to use head,hands, and body...BrendaL: just an old fashioned girl I guess."sgp": i imagine your right about that"aurora lovelock": i like being on-line"bjorn": definitely!Elphaba: compelling content is engaging"aurora lovelock": it's the best bit - the shared space"Laertes": it is the social intercourse that counts"sgp": its a big problem getting away from the window, frame construct/metaphor"Clive Warren": Strange feeling - hanging in space and wanting to get down - feels safethough...BrendaL: These look like transparent ladies down here...

nemo: ghostly"Clive Warren": feel "in" the world but remotegaga: whiter shade of pale"Laertes": yes, they r uncannynemo: considering they were for a past event, perhaps a trace of memory?"Laertes": nemo, i like that ideagaga: interesting"Laertes": in Rl u leave traces, not herenemo: our chat logs are traces of memories no?"Laertes": ok, nemo

BrendaL: What were they for?"sgp": how does our body affect space in virtual worlds?"skejs": anyway the brides gives you a very different experience of a passed weddingthan text would ever donemo: someone explaine the bride's past"italianarchitect": Hi to everybody, I'm new here (8"sgp": should space remain static? is it static?"Clive Warren": we change the space of virtual worlds by our presence"Clive Warren": Can someone help me down - a ladder?Elphaba: depends on you ontology..."sgp": yes by filling it, but couldn't we affect its form too?BrendaL: well, it all depends on the affordances of the world . . . like a ladder for Clivewould be nice . . .ommm: there was an actual wedding in ActiveWorldsommm: these are the bride avatars, several years later with transparency addedgaga: like more conventional artforms, the brides 'purpose' is perhaps more to evoke,than to declare...ommm: and special bride avatars were made

BrendaL: It'll be more interesting when there is an actual honeymoon in activeworlds..."Laertes": and the weding night ?nemo: wheres the groom?BrendaL: eaten. by spiders.ommm: hehe, we occasionally do have to eject honeymooners during a Forumnemo: yikes!"skejs": where are the spiders?[Hermes]: Place your cursor on one of the color balls, and it will tell you where a nodeis. Clicking the ball teleports you to the node.gaga: lol, you volcanessBrendaL: Hermes, you have a nasty mind!ommm: haha"skejs": hehenemo: funny how hermes can say more then it means tonomad: maybe we should add some semi-transparent herms to this spotBrendaL: Michael, do we have an HMD at Art Center?ommm: nope, wish we didommm: we'd love to work with HMD and / or CAVEgaga: undoubtedly faculty could lobby for such apparatusgodster: hear hear

ommm: this is low-budget VR -- and it's online live (now)BrendaL: yes indeedy"Clive Warren": does the cave have a floor?BrendaL: yep"foyle": To my mind the CAve is an astonishing "fusion" of body experience andillusion in VRBrendaL: agreemjson: some do Clivedskog: Hej Anna!godster: well, a cave can engage a body in a new waynemo: but what about imagination? do we "need" HMD's to willingly immerse?BrendaL: no, it's just a rush.

"italianarchitect": THIS IS A WONDERFUL ART WORK, who is the artist?"Clive Warren": have only seen static projections of a cave - chap came over to theArnolfini here in Bristol EnglandBrendaL: I do think that the more kinesthetic the interface the deeper the involvementcan become."aurora lovelock": it's maybe more viewer centeredElphaba: but what about VR sickness...BrendaL: Depends on lag and optics, not very common with good rigs.vetunimi1: VR sickness?BrendaL: Motion sickness, more or less.nemo: I wonder if the involvement is deeper in a different way?gaga: what would happen with truly convincing, kinesthetic 3D, live online virtualworlds?"Clive Warren": how about tactile kinesthetic feedback - anyone tried out with glovefeedback?[Hermes]: Place your cursor on one of the color balls, and it will tell you where a nodeis. Clicking the ball teleports you to the node.BrendaL: Hermes![Hermes]: Yes, BrendaLgodster: where[Hermes]: Place your cursor on one of the color balls, and it will tell you where a nodeis. Clicking the ball teleports you to the node.gaga: lolommm: lolnemo: Are we in competition with the kind of immersion we experience in books orother things?mjson: hehe"aurora lovelock": this experience is very object-y i reckon"sgp": i'm curious about where people are connecting from?"sgp": new york"Laertes": sweden"ethos": maryland"skejs": Copenhagen

Elphaba: ohiogodster: pasadenanomad: l.a."bjorn": umeå, swedenBrendaL: Marsnemo: the computer room in accd[Hermes]: Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, California"aurora lovelock": England - Bournemouthgodster: accd"italianarchitect": Venice, Italy[Hermes]: Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, Californiamjson: sweden x 5 i believeBrendaL: What else can we get him to say?"foyle": Berlinmjson: thank you HermesBrendaL: Say thank you, Hermes. Now he's sulking.vetunimi1: italy milanoacroon: Swedendskog: Another swede"Clive Warren": Bristol in the sunny South West of England"Clive Warren": sgp - anyone found that ladder? shift and down arrow doesn't do it forme!"sgp": clive use Minus -gaga: Quite a round upommm: for the last step of our journey, skejs has offered to lead us"skejs": lets go south"bjorn": Hermes?[Hermes]: Yes, "bjorn"godster: follow skejs!"bjorn": aha!"italianarchitect": Ciao ventunimi1vetunimi1: ciao italiana

ommm: okay, where's skjes?"skejs": here, let's go - its a long tripommm: skejs says Southgodster: pack a lunch"Clive Warren": sgp - nope just puts characters in the text box :-("sgp": do you have numerical keypad? use thatmjson: skejs disappearedommm: uh-oh, where's skejs?BrendaL: With Hermes.Elphaba: oops"aurora lovelock": it's hide and seek !"skejs": sorry, everyone. My computer crashed:("sgp": clive how did you move up before?BrendaL: Did it hurt, skejs?"aurora lovelock": we missed you skejsgaga: they're down by the waterfallommm: i'm lost where's skejsgaga: if you look NW you'll see the nodesnomad: |skejs, do a flybymjson: where did he go, did he crash again?[Hermes]: Place your cursor on one of the color balls, and it will tell you where a nodeis. Clicking the ball teleports you to the node.nomad: he's overexerting himself

ommm: okay, let's just do coordsmjson: is there a speed limit here?ommm: 32.45S 3.0 E 0.9aommm: or just join megaga: the Cyberforum platform is the seascape in bluenemo: glad you made it!

"skejs": where is everyone? did they get lost?"bjorn": i didn't need to press shift to get in here...?ommm: yeah, skejs, we couldn't find you!"sgp": -BrendaL: Fulfilling sense of embodiment . . .nemo: did you know you disappeared for awhile skejs?BrendaL: Where were you, what was it like?gaga: are you amnesiac?godster: were you abducted?mjson: did you get probed?gaga: lol"skejs": sorry, my computer went down, I was thrown back to RL :(("foyle": lost in cyberspacenemo: haw haw!"skejs": no, lost in RL"bjorn": interesting

"skejs": come on, Brendagaga: must be why he's rubbing his eyesommm: watch this: accdgodster: what happened to Hermes?nomad: ;you've killed Hermesommm: he can't hear us from this far away!

BrendaL: Seem to that good materials are the key to helping folks generate goodnarrativeBrendaL: but that you can't put narrative in VR.BrendaL: Hermes is telling a story, perhaps.nemo: Hermes!BrendaL: Lost, O lost, and by the wind grieved.godster: say more, brendaElphaba: why not?"skejs": so the artifacts have to be good guides to make people make their ownnarratives?BrendaL: Well, what would be the point?"bjorn": why can't you put narrative in VR?nomad: part of narrative is continuity and change in continuity like are refrain ofinteraction with hermes"aurora lovelock": was/is this a narrative?gaga: But Brenda, can you clarify for me, because lots of things carry narrative, evenjust by their appearance. The brides for example

BrendaL: This is reader response theory I suppose - narrative is structure - embodiedfolks on a stage or in a virtual world necessarily impinge on structure.godster: we have been discussing narrative construction of space at accd"skejs": right, gaganomad: impinge?BrendaL: The brides are materials - things we made little bits of narrative from.BrendaL: OK make fun of my vocabulary. Hermes.gaga: what if there are other ways to define narrative other then by structure?BrendaL: There's always tension between people who want to "author" experiences andpeople who want to provide materials for participants to author their own narratives bybeing in the world.Elphaba: what about a "Brechtian" approach?"foyle": Do you know the japanese "Play cinema" - Project(http://www.mic.atr.co.jp/~tosa/pc/image.html)? It tries to combine the dramatic filmexperience with a special VR-situation. InterestingBrendaL: Gaga, sounds good, what other ways do you have in mind?nemo: good point elphabaommm: (to Elphaba) interesting idea!BrendaL: Why waste good VR on Brecht? If you're going to do presentationalism, youdon't need immersion."skejs": tell more, foyleBrendaL: How does it work, Foyle?gaga: By association, by poetic linkage, by experience, by creating within a context, arepossible alternative strategies

"skejs": why DO we meed immersionnemo: yeah skejs"skejs": need..BrendaL: feeelz goodgaga: immersion = fun"skejs": right u are"Clive Warren": yep but don't need it to experience the world"bjorn": if i walk down a corridor with different statues lined up against the wall, don't(can't) they tell me a story - and isn't that narrative?godster: well, another kind of experiencenemo: more fun than other ways?ommm: when you play, you are immersed (Heraclitus)ommm: "time is a child playing with blocks"gaga: the nature of symbols is to be a doorway to experience..."Clive Warren": or a guide"aurora lovelock": role-play can generate narrativenomad: a chain of events in cause-effect relationship occuring in time and space isnarrativeBrendaL: bjorn, you are telling the story, not the statues, right?gaga: thus encounters with various icons, symbols archetypes...godster: the road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom"bjorn": no, not necessarilyBrendaL: OK, it's getting heavy now...

gaga: opens a pathway into our own memory"bjorn": they could be very deliberately mede by an artist, say"ethos": wouldn't some argue, however, that the reader *always* tells the story? (notthat i'm sure i buy it)ommm: on this heavy note, maybe we should call our Forum a success for the day?ommm: we have been wearing these heavy avatars for an hour nowmjson: so can we interpret Virtual worlds as narratives?Elphaba: what about something like Myst?"bjorn": to show change over time (as i am walking)BrendaL: Oh Michael, this has been fun. I want to meet Hermes someday.gaga: And memory, nostalgia, resoantes with our internal satisfaction"bjorn": given that there's only one direction to go perhapsgodster: well, more to discuss next timeommm: haha, Hermes at the crossroads!BrendaL: Thanx for the fun"Clive Warren": notice that we are all static - well most of us - perhaps learning aboututilizing movement in communication is possibleommm: definitely more next time...gaga: Thank you!nomad: terrific time, Brendanemo: seems to me narrative is more than one means of storytellinggodster: brava!Elphaba: thanks!"aurora lovelock": thanks Brenda"sgp": thank you for comingmjson: thanks Brendaommm: thanks so much, Brenda, for your time and patienceommm: and thoughts about VRommm: please join us again sometimeommm: and bring your gumommm: we look forward to further flights with you and Hermesommm: and skejs (if we can find him)"ethos": thank you"bjorn": oh, brenda - i still have things to ask you!"foyle": Hard to descrivbe it in few words. Move to the URL. I´ve tested it at a festivalin Berlin. It`s a variation if interactive storytelling.nemo: thank youBrendaL: next time I will chew gum at the same time!gaga: hahanemo: and your wings"Clive Warren": thanks Brenda - a great experiencegaga: your memory sticks"skejs": thaks brenda and everyone"foyle": thanksgodster: when is the next cyberforum?

ommm: next forum is March 11thnemo: at 1:30 with Carol Gigliottiommm: thanks everyone for comingommm: and the chat log with pics of you all will appear in a day or twogaga: bye bye"bjorn": byenomad: bye y'all"aurora lovelock": byeommm: bye all"ethos": bye. thank youElphaba: great job. most enjoyable!"skejs": please store the chat on the web-sitedskog: thanks, bye everyone"sgp": bye from new yorkommm: bye Elph and dsk and sgp"Clive Warren": bye everyone - you're all welcome in Bristolgodster: bye everyone!mjson: vi ses danneommm: bye Clive and mjnemo: go well!acroon: vi ses danne!mjson: bye ommmommm: and acroonacroon: Byedskog: bye everyone