DaveAsprey: Comeandjoinmeandfiveoftheworld’sleadingpersonaldevelopmentteachersatthenewBulletproofpersonaldevelopmentevent,BeUnlimited.Thisisunlikeanythingelseoutthere.Learnfromme,learnfromholotropicbreastworkcreatorandnon-ordinarystatesofconsciousnessexpert,DoctorStanGroff.LearntomeditatewithZenmasterGenpoRoshi.GetanenergyupgradefromthemasteroftheEmperor’sEnergy,DoctorBarryMarguelan.EnrollbyAugust3andsave$500.BeUnlimitedTakesplaceinSanFrancisco,August10-13.Ifyoucan’tmakethosedates,it’snotaproblem…there’sanotheronehappeningJanuary18-21in2018.GotoBulletproofTrainingInstitute.comformoreinformation.That’sBulletproofTrainingInstitute.com.Ireallyhopetoseeyouthere.Thisisoneofthoseworld-changingthingsI’msoexcitedtobedoing.

OneofthefirstthingsIhadtodoafterdevelopingtheBulletproofdiet,andsheddingsomeofthisextrafat,andputtingonabunchofmuscleindifferentplaceswasshopfornewclothing.It’safrustratingexperience,becausefindingadressshirtthatfitscorrectlyneverseemstoworkright.Collarsaretootight,thesleevesaretoolongortooshort,something’salwaysnotright.Luckily,IstumbledonProperCloth.com.ProperCloth.comisawebsitewhereyoucaneasilycreateacustomshirtsizeinsecondsbyansweringjust10easyquestions.Youdon’tneedameasuringtapesoit’safoolproofprocess.Iprobablydon’townameasuringtape.ProperClothhasover500fabricstylestochoosefrom,classicbusinessandcasualstyles.ProperClothcustomshirtsstartfrom85bucks.They’remadefrompremiumItalianandJapanesefabrics.Thewebsite'seasytouse,yourcustomsizesandyourpreferencesareallsavedtoyourprofile,andyoucouldevenorderitonyourphone.ProperClothguaranteesaperfectfitforalltheirshirts.Ifthereareanyproblemswiththewayyourshirtfits,ProperCloth.comwillremakeitforfree.Stopwearingshirtsthatdon’tfit,startlookingyourbest.GotoProperCloth.com/Bulletprooftoday.EntergiftcodeBulletprooftosave$20onyourfirstshirt.Doittoday.

Speaker2: BulletproofRadio,astateofhighperformance.

DaveAsprey: YourlisteningtoBulletproofRadiowithDaveAsprey.Today’scoolfactofthedayisthatjointpainisnotanythingnew,butdidyouknowitmighthaveplayedaroleintheAmericanRevolution?Hippocratescalledgout,arthritisoftherich,becauseoflifestylefactorsthatcamein,likedrinkinglotsofexcessivealcohol,and,quote,richfood.Ifyouwerediagnosedwiththegout,itactuallywascool.Fromasocialperspective.Peoplewithgoutweresuccessful.Oneofthosewell-to-dogoutsuffererswasaBritishstatementcalledWilliamPitt,theelder,whohappenedtobeabsentfromParliamentbecauseofagoutattackonthedaytheBritishgovernmentdecidedtolevythosetaxesonteaimportsthatledtotheBostonteaparty.Itwasn’tforouroldfriend,gout,theremightnothavebeenanAmericanrevolution.Whowouldhavethought?

I’veheardthatalotofpeopleinthebiohackingcommunity,justpeoplewanttotakecareofhimselfhavehadtroublewithhowmuchtheyoverpayforlifeinsurance,becauselifeinsurancecompanieshaven’tcaughtupwithallthenew

sciencethatchangesthewaydifferenttypesoffoodandexercise,diets,areviewedbythescientificcommunity.Lifeinsurancecompaniesarestilltellingyoutoeatfat-freetoast,andcraplikethat.Forexample,ifyou’recommittedtotheBulletproofdiet,youmighthaveanincreasedlevelofgoodcholesterolcalledHDL,that’sprotective.Somelifeinsurancecompaniesaregoingtolumpallcholesterolintoonenegativecategorybasedonsciencethat’sactuallybeenrejectedbytheAmericanHeartAssociation,butthelifeinsurancecompanystilldoit.Thatdecisioncanincreasewhatyoupayforlifeinsurance.

Ifyou’relisteningtothispodcast,youcareaboutyourhealth.AcompanycalledHealthIQadvocatesforhealth-consciouslifestyles,andtheythinkyoushouldactuallyberewardedforit.Theyusescienceanddatatogetyoulowerratesoninsurancefromthehealthcompanies,thingsforpeoplewhoarehealth-conscious.Cyclists,runners,evenvegansandvegetarians,weightlifters,areonBulletproof.Infact,researchhasshownthatpeoplewithahighhealthIQare42percentlesslikelytobeobeseanda57%percentlowerriskofearlydeath.Theygettogotothehospitalless.Alotofpeopledon’tknowtheirhealthIQ,andtheydon’tknowthattheirhealthIQcansavethemmoneyonlifeinsurance.It’sworthcheckingitout.

Rightnow,BulletproofRadiolistenerscanlearnmoreandgetafreelifeinsurancequotebygoingtoHealthIQ.com/Bulletproof.That’sHealthIQ.com/BulletprooftolearnyourhealthIQ,andtolearnmoreaboutlifeinsuranceforpeoplewhopayattentiontotheirhealth.

Todays’guestisaremarkableguy…DAVEREADSALISTOFDR.STEVENGUNDRY’SCREDITS…

In2016,helaunchedawellnessblogandaYouTubechanneltohelppeoplelearnaboutthisstuff,andjustwroteanewbookthatcameoutinAprilandhittheWallStreetJournal,USATodayandNewYorkTimesbestsellerlists.Thebookiscalled“ThePlantParadox”,andtheauthorisnoneotherthanDoctorStevenGundry.WelcometoBulletproofRadio.

StevenGundry: Hey,thanksforhavingme.Iamreallyexcitedtobehere.

DaveAsprey: Youwrote“ThePlantParadox”.WhenIfirstsawthiscomingout,Iwasexcitedbecause,well,youhaveIwouldcall,unimpeachablecredentials,asinyoubeendoingthisforatleastacoupleweeks.And,yourbookisallabouthowplantsprotectthemselvesfrombeingeaten.Whichissomethingthat’smissingfromalotofthisnutritionaldogmathat’soutthere,andsomeofthethinkingbehindtheBulletproofdietisthatthereisalistofsuspectfoods.Oneofthe[00:05:30]bigthingsthatmakesthingslikegarbanzobeans,andbellpeppers,andprettymuchallgrainsasuspectisthedefensemechanismsthatarepresentinthesethings.Justoutoftheblue,yourbookcomesoutafteryou’vebeenresearchingthisstufffor10yearswithsomeprofoundstories,andreallygoodresearchthatsays,look,theseplantcompoundsarenotdoingusfavors,andhere’showto

tellthedifference.Whatledyoudownthispathoflookingatplanttoxins,versusallthethingsyoucould’vedone,you’relikeanartificialheartguy?

StevenGundry: Well,about17yearsago,myarchinlifewaschanged.Verymuchlikeyourswas.Iwasaveryfamousprofessorandchairmanofheartsurgeryat[inaudible]University,andaguyfromMiami,whoIcalledBigEdwassenttomewithinoperablecoronaryarterydisease.Allofhisbloodvesselswerecloggedup,youcouldn’tputstintsinthem,youcouldn’tdobypasses.He’dbeengoingaroundthecountrytosurgeonswhotakethissortofthingon,andI’moneofthose.Hefinallygottome,andhe’dbeengoingaroundthecountryforaboutsixmonths.Now,thisisaveryobeseguy.WhenImethim,heweighed265pounds.

I’mlookingathiscorner,AndrewGraham,themovieofhisheart,andI’mgoing,“Youknow,I’mreallynotgoingtohelpyou.Iagreewitheverybodyelse,there’sjustnothingwe’regoingtodo.”Hesays,“Well,look,I’vebeenatthisforsixmonths,I’vegoneonadiet,I'velost45pounds,andIwenttoahealthfoodstore,andIboughtthisbigbagofsupplements,andbeentakingthesesupplementseveryday.MaybeIdidsomethinginhere."I’mlookingathimgoing,“Well,goodforyouforlosing45pounds,butit’snotgoingtochangeanythinghere.Iknowwhatyoudidwithallthosesupplements,youmadeexpensiveurine.”WhichIactuallybelievedbackthen.

DaveAsprey: I’mtotallyokaywithhavingexpensiveurine.ItmeansmybodyusedwhatIwanted,andIpeedtherestout.My[inaudible]havethemostexpensiveurineontheplanet,andGodspeed.

StevenGundry: Yeah,exactly.I’mtryingtocatch[inaudible]withtheexpensiveurine.

DaveAsprey: IthinkI’mthere,youaretoo?

StevenGundry: Yeah.Yeah,120differentonesinthemorningandnight,butwecangointothatlater.

DaveAsprey: Oh,good,good,good.

StevenGundry: Anyhow,thisguy,wegotanotherangiogramonhim,andIwassoimpressedthatIactuallyoperatedonhim.IfIhadknownwhatIknownow,Iwouldhavesaid,“Hey,greatgoing,let’scleantherestout.Iwasn’t,Iwasstupidbackthen.Afterweweredone,Isaid,“Hey,tellmeaboutthisdiet.Letmelookatthosesupplements.”Hestartsdescribingthediet,andafewsentencesinIgo,“Waitaminute,timeout.”IhadaspecialmajoratYaleUniversitybackinthedarkageswhereIhadamajorforfouryearsweremythesiswasyoucouldalteragreatape’sfoodsupply,andalterhisenvironment,andyoucouldprovethatyouwouldarriveatahumanbeing.

Thatwasmythesis,whichIdefendedsuccessfully,andgotanhonors,andthentuckeditawayinmyparent’shome.Wentontodohardsurgery.He’sstarting

todescribethisdiet,andI’mgoing,“Wait,that’smythesis.”Thisisratherpoignant,becauselikeyou,Iwasaveryobeseindividual.Iweighed230pounds,I’m510,Iwasrunning30milesaweek,goingtothegymonehoureveryday,andeatingahealthy,low-fat,adventivediet.

DaveAsprey: ExcusemeDoctorGundry,you’reobviouslylying.You’resneakingSnickersbarsallthetime.Ifyouweredoingthat,youwouldhavelostweight.Didyourcolleaguestellyouthat?

StevenGundry: Yeah.

DaveAsprey: Ilovethis.

StevenGundry: Icouldgoonanydietknowntomankind,theAtkinsdiet,Icouldlose20pounds,andthengain25.TheOrnishdiet,Icouldlose20poundsandgain25.Thecabbagesoupdiet.Theeggdiet.Ihadhighcholesterol,andprediabetes,andIhadsuchbadarthritisthatIactuallyhadtowearbracesonmykneestokeeprunning.Igotmigraineheadacheseveryday,imaginedoingbabyhearttransplantswithmigraines,it’snotalotoffun.Iwastoldthatthiswasgenetic,becausemyfatherwasalmostidenticalinallhislabworks,andaboutthesamesize,andtherewasreallynothingIcoulddoaboutit.

IcalledmyparentswhenIlistenedtobigEd,andtheysentmythesisuptome.Igotitactuallyuphereintheshelf,andIputmyselfonmythesis.Ilookedinhisbagofsupplements,andIwasusingabunchofthesesupplements,intravenously,downinthelabtoresuscitateheartsthathadbeendeadforanhour,andthenputtingtheminabagoficewaterfor48hours.Ithadneveroccurredtometoswallowthedumbthings.

DaveAsprey: Likecarnitine,andthingslikethat?

StevenGundry: Yeah,likecarnitine,likeactuallygrapeseedextract,lipoicacid,likepycnogenol,ProenzymeQ10.Istartedtakingabunchofsupplements.Istartedsendingmybloodwork-

DaveAsprey: Letmepauseyouforasecondthere.

StevenGundry: Yeah.

DaveAsprey: Howlongagowasthis?

StevenGundry: Thiswas1997.

DaveAsprey: IttakesalotofballsforformerpresidentAmericanheartAssociationtotakeonesupplement,andyoustartedtakingallthesethings.That’salmost[inaudible]toyourprofessionatthetime.Whatmadeyoudothat?

StevenGundry: Well,youandIknowthatourancientancestorsinteractwith250differentplantspeciesonarotatingbasis.Allofthoseplanthavepolyphenols,flavonoidsthatnotonlyturnonourindividualgenes,butmoreimportantly,theyalterthegeneexpressionofourmicrobiome.Wewouldencounterthesethingsonaseasonalbasis.OneofthethingsIkeeptellingevenmyhard-coreorganicfoodeatersislook,ifyouthinkvisitingafarmer’smarketeverydayofyourlifethatyouaregoingtorequire250differentplantspeciesonarotatingbasis,I’vegotoceanfrontpropertyinPalmSpringstosellyou.Itjustcan’tbedone.WhatIdecidedtodowasturn,notonlymyself,butmypatientsintoanongoingresearchproject.Becauseatmycore,that’swhatIdoisresearch.Istarteddoingthisonmyself,andIlost50poundsthefirstyear,andIdidthatonpurpose,andthenIsubsequentlylostanother20pounds,andI’vekeptitoffnowfor20years.Igaveuplongdistancerunning,thatwasoneofthestupidestthingsthatanybodycouldeverdo.

DaveAsprey: You’remakingmehappy,man.

StevenGundry: JustaskMarkSisson,hisopinionoflongdistancerunningnow.

DaveAsprey: Ihave,right.

StevenGundry: Yeah.Anyhow,IstarteddoingthisonpatientsthatIoperatedon,becauseatthattime,Istillthought,“Well,I'llwillputinsomenewplumbing,butlet’skeeptheplumbingfromcloggingup"becauseIwasfamousfordoingredooperations,andredoredooperations.Thatjustgetssilly.Ourprofessionisconvincedthatthisisanongoingprocess,maybewecanslowitdownalittlebit,butit’llfinallygetyou.Ofcourse,that’sallwrong.IsetupanInstituteinPalmSpringswhereIaskanybodywhowantedtoplaywithmethateverythreemonthswe’dsendtheirbloodworkuptotheBayArea,toVirginia,downtoTexas,whereverIcouldfindaninterestinglabthatcouldgiveme,whatarecalled,inflammatorycytokines.

Thenwestartedtweakingfoods.Westartedtweakingsupplements.Veryrapidlyafterthepublicationofmyfirstbookin2008,whichwasDoctorGundry’sdietofillusion,atonofpeoplewithautoimmunediseasesstartedcomingtomyoffice.They’dsay,“Well,whatyouknowaboutautoimmunedisease?”I’dgo,“Idon’tknowanythingaboutautoimmunedisease,butIknowawholelotabouttheimmunesystem,becauseIatransplantimmunologist.I’mfamousforhavingthelongestpigtobaboonhearttransplantsurvival.30days,baboonwithapigheart.Thepreviousrecordwasfivehours.That’sgood.Welookedatimmunemarkers,andloandbehold,thesesetofplanscamerightuponthetopofthelist.Forinstance,ourfavorites,thegrainsandthebeansappearedreallyveryquickly.

Asyouknow,becausemyresearchatYalewashumanevolutionarybiology,weneverateagrainorabeanuntilabout10,000yearsago.Whenagriculturegotstarted.Now,theinterestingthingmostpeopledon’tknowthatwewereverytallcreatures10,000yearsago.Westoodaboutsixfeettall.Theshockingthing

is,ourbrainsizewasabout15percentbiggerthanitistoday.Everybodygoes,“No,no,no,no,wewerelittlecreatures,andwegotbigger.”No,wewerebig.Within2000yearsofagriculture,wehadshrunktofourfoot10inches.Why?Becausequitefrankly,plantsdon’tlikeus.Theydon’twantustoeatthem,andtheydon’twantustoeattheirchildren,theirbabies,theirseeds.

Plantshaveaproblemwhenanimalsarrived,becausetheycouldn’trun,theycouldn’thide,theycouldn'tfight,butasyouandIknow,they’rechemistsofincredibleability.Theycanturnsunlightintomatter,andIhaven’tfiguredouthowtodothatyet.WhattheydoistheyusechemicalOrphic,andoneoftheirfavoriteattackmechanismsistheprotein[inaudible].Lectinsaresobeautifully,diabolicallydesignedtowreakhavoconananimalpredator,Icouldn’thavedoneitbettermyself.

DaveAsprey: Isn’tittruethatourbodiesnaturallyproducetonsofourownlectins?Likeallanimalsarefulloflectins.

StevenGundry: Absolutelytrue.Lectins,thereisacommunicationsystem,andlectinsarepatternsthatturnreceptorsoffandon.

DaveAsprey: Sowehaveourownonboardsetoflectins,butplantshaveotherlectins?

StevenGundry: Correct.Oneoftheinterestingthingsisthelongerwe’vebeenexposedtoaplantlectin,thelongerwe’vehadtoadaptfrom,notsomuchourgenome,butourbacterialgenome,andoneofthecoolthingsthatIliketotalkaboutiswebasicallyuploadedourearlywarningdefensesystemtoourmicrobiome.Becausethemicrobiomeiscapableofrapidalterationingeneexpression.Themicrobiomeactuallysendstextmessagestoourimmunesystemtotellushowthingsaregoingintheoutsideworld.

Whetherwe’rebeingattackedbyproteinsthatareforeigntothemortous,andthat’spartoftheplantparadoxinthat,asItalkabout,therehavebeensevendeadlydisruptorswhichhavereallyscrewedupthiscommunicationsystem,andhowwehavebeenpreviouslyprotectedfromalotoflectins.Togiveyouanexample,there’slectinsinleaves.Alotofthemarefairlynasty.We’reatreedwellingape.Wecamefromtreeshrews,soItellwomen,iftheywanttocalltheirhusbandarat,they’reprettydoggoneclose.We’vebeeneatingleavesfor40millionyears.Weshare99percentofourgeneswithchimpsandgorillas,andagorillaeats16poundsofleaveseveryday.AsIleftwithmycarnivore[inaudible]colleagues,agorillahasmoremusclethanwe’lleverdreamof,andalltheyeatisleaves.Mustbesomethingtoit.

DaveAsprey: Ibelievethat[inaudible]recommendswaytoomuchprotein,becauseit’saterriblefuelsource.I’vebeenonhigh-proteindietslikeyouhaveinmyquesttolose100pounds.Thatsaid,ifweateonlyleaves,I’verarelycomeacrossaprofoundlyhealthyvegan.Yeah,sothereisacomfortablemiddleground.[inaudible]moderatehigh-qualityprotein,andyoushouldeatthelowanti-

nutrientsofallsources,includinglectins.Inyourbook,“ThePlantParadox”,whichbytheway,I’vehadalotofauthorsonBulletproofRadiowhohavenoteworthybooks,soifyou’velikedtheBulletproofdiet,or“Headstrong”,youreallyoughttoread“ThePlantParadox”.

Thereissomeoverlapinourrecommendations,therearesomedifferencesinourrecommendations,butifyou’rewonderingwhysomefoodsmakeyouweak,there’sstuffinherethatgoeswaydeeperthanIeverdidinmychapteronlectins.There’sawholebookonlectins,andit’sworthit.Justaquickplug.No,DoctorGundrydidn’taskmetodothat,Ionlyhavepeopleonwhohavecoolstuff.Ifyou’rewatchingonYouTube,gotoBulletproof.com/YouTubetofindit.That’swhatthebooklookslike,andyoucantellit’salldog-eared,becauseIwentthroughandIlearnedsomestuff.Ifyou’resaying,“Weweremeanttobeleaves,butsomeleavescontainlectins.”

Iremembermydaughterwhenshewasmaybetwo.Wehadalittlegardeninourbackyard,andshelearnedshecouldgo,shecouldeatRosemary,andshe’s10,shestillgoesoutandeatsherbsfromthegardenjustrawthesamewayIdo.Shedidn’tknow.Wehadsomesquashgrowing,itwasapumpkinthink.Shetakesaleaffromthepumpkinandeatsit,andfartsfortherestoftheday,andcryingwithcrampsandallthiskindofstufffromoneleafbecauseofthelectinsintheplant.Inmyexperience,infacthere’sanotherone,I’mprofoundlylectinsensitive.Ifiguredthisoutawhileago,andifIeatonebiteofpotato,especiallythe[inaudible]fromyourdescription,butallthegreenssuck,soifIeatoneofthosethings,IgettheupperbackpainthatIhadmyentireadultlifeuntilIfiguredthisout.Itwasalwaysalongtheupperspine,hadarthritisinmykneessinceIwas14.

Iwouldnevertouchthestuff.Myson,whoisseven,andtheystartedputtingonepotatointhesouptheymakeatschool,andsureenough,heneedsamassageeverynightinhisneckfortheentireweekfromthatonething.Mydaughtercaneatapotatowithnoeffects.Atleastnonethatwecanseerightaway.Itoldherdon’teatpotatoes,they’reprobablynotbiologicallyverygoodforourfamily.Whythedifferenceinresponsivenessbetweentwoofmyownoffspring?What’sgoingonthere?

StevenGundry: That’sagreatquestion,andhalfofmypracticenowisautoimmunediseases.Thereallycoolthingis,there’susuallyafamilyhistorycomponent.Whenyoudo,Idofamilytrees,andit'sfascinatingthatthere’susuallyIBS,ortherewasdiarrhea,constipation,orlotsofhypothyroidism,lotsofrheumatoidarthritis.Thereisclearlyageneticpredisposition.Welookatallthemarkersthatareknownforautoimmunediseases.Clearly,alotofpeoplecarrythese.What’sinterestingisinmybook,therearepeoplewhoreacttothesealmostinstantaneously.Icallthemcanaries.Coalminersusedtogointominesandtheycouldn’tsmellthemethanegas,sothey’dcarrycanarieswiththem,andthecanarieswouldflirtaround,andtheymighthaveamuchhighermetabolismright.

IftheCanarykeeledoverstoppedsinging,youran.Therearepeoplelikeyou,andactuallypeoplelikeme,thatreactvirtuallyinstantaneously.That’sahugebenefitactually.What’sbeenfascinatingtomeis,isthatI’mnowabsolutelyconvincedthateveryoneofusissensitivetothemajorone.Wemaynotfeelituntil10,20,40yearsagowhenwehavebone-on-bonearthritis,orwehavethreebloodvesselsthatarecloggedup,andyougo,“Gee,Ieatahealthylow-fatdiet,andIrun40milesaweek,andthatdoesn’tmakeanysense.”Whenyoustartbreakingitdownatwherelectinsinvitedisease,it’sjustbeenfascinatingtometowatchpeoplewhoarescheduledforhipreplacement,orkneereplacement,andweputthemonthisprogram,andsixmonthslaterthey'veregrowncartilageintheirjointsandtheycanceltheiroperation.

DaveAsprey: Yousaidsomethingthere.IgrewupinNewMexicowheregreenchili,whichisamemberofthenightshadefamilythat’sveryhighinlectins,it’ssoulfood.Ilovethestuff,IusedtoslicehabanerosandjustputthemonwhateverIwasgoingtoeat,andcrywhenIwouldeat.Itellyou,Iputalittlebitofcayenneonmyfood,myjointsymptomsreturn.ThesymptomsthatstartedwhenIwas14andIwasdiagnosedwitharthritis.Whilemydad,mid-seventies,he’shadonehipreplacement,andI’vebeenharpingonhimforawhile.Youalwayshavetoconvinceyourparents.Youthinkatthispointhe’dlisten,andhedoestobetotallyhonest.He’svery,veryintotheBulletproofthingnow.Atthetimehewasn’t.Isaid,“Dad,couldyoujuststopeatingcayennepepperandtrythisjustfortwoweeks?”Hearguesagainstit.

Eventuallyhesays,“I’llgiveitatry.”Hecallsmeintwoweekslater,andhesays,“Youknowwhat?Hesaid,"Idon’tthinkI’mgoingtohavetohavemyotherhipreplaced.”Aftertwoweeksofjustnoteatingthesethings,andhewasalreadyavoidinggreens,andmostlyBulletproof,butyoucan’tgivehimgreenchili,becauselifeisn’tworthlivingwithoutgreenchili,whichiswhatanyMexicanwilltellyou,butitis.Idon’teatmyfavoritefoodeither,becauseit’sjustnotworththepain.You’resayingeveryone’saffectedbythis.Inmycase,Ifeelcrappyrightaway,soit’sanobviousthing.What’sthenormalonsettime?Let’ssayyoueatthisstuffasakid,theyputcayenneinhalfthestuffyoucanget,thehealthykalechips,orwhatever.Alotofotherlectincontainsmadefromquinoa,andsomegarbanzos,andalltheseotherrandomfoodsthatarefulloflectins,howlongshouldyouexpectbeforeyoustartseeingbadthingshappentoyouthatseemtohavenocause?

StevenGundry: Itisamazing.Ihavealotofparentswhobringyoungerkidstomewithasthma,oreczema.HaveaprettybigpopulationofCrohn’s,kids.Thesearethekids,invariably,theyhadalotofearinfections,oralotofsorethroatsasalittlekid,andtheygotalotofantibiotics.Well-meaningbytheirpediatricians,butwhatI’vediscoveredin10yearsnowisthatallthoserunnynoses,andyourinfections,andsorethroatswereactuallycausedbyourresponsetolectins.Mucusproductionisactuallyourfundamentalwayoftrappinglectins.Lectinsareproteinsthatseekoutsugarmoleculestobindto,andmucusismucopolysaccharidoses.That’smultiplesugars.Wethrowdownthisdefensiveshieldtotraplectins.

Ifanybodyeatsspicyfood,they’llnoticedthattheirnosestartsrunning.It’sevengotamedicaltermcalled[inaudible]rhinorrhea.Thehilariousthingisthatit’sactuallyustryingtoprotectourselvesfromlectins.It’sreallycoolwhenthesekidswitheczema,orasthma,ortonsils.Whenwetakelectinsawayfromthem,it’sdifficultbecauseourcultureisjustlectincentric.Thentheyclearupsofast,andthenthekidsactuallynotice,iftheyreintroduceoneoftheselittletroublemakers,likeonekid,coupleofgrapetomatoesflaredhisasthma.Onekidhadacouplebitesofpizzaataparty,andhiseczemajustblossomed.Thentheyknow,theybecomesosensitivethatit’snofuntoeatthesefoodsanymore.

DaveAsprey: Mostdefinitely.Mykidsfeelthedifferencefromthestuffthey’resensitiveto,andtheyhaven’tbeenexposedthatmuch.CanyouexplainGreece?IwenttoGreecerecently,andtherewasalmostnothing.I’llhavethefish,andtheywon’tputanythingonit,becauseeverysinglevegetableavailableinGreeceisaneggplant,atomato,apotato,orapepper.Thoseareallsuperhighlectin,nightshadefamilyfoods,andmaybeagrapeorsomethingifyou’relucky.WhyiseveryoneinGreecenotjustfallingdeadfromheartdiseaseearlyon?Infact,theMediterraneandietisfromthere.

StevenGundry: Yeah.ThefunnythingisisthatthepleasuresofthatMediterraneandiet,eggplant,andpeppers,andcucumbers,andpotatoes,andtomatoeswereallbroughtbyColumbus.Noneofthesepeopleactuallyateanyofthesefoodsuntil500yearsago.Infact,theItaliansweresoafraidoftomatoesthattheydidn’teatthemfor200years.Thentheydecidedthatthepeelandtheseedsactuallyhadthemajorlectins,andsoanyItalianwilltellyou,youcannotmaketomatosaucewithoutpeelingandde-seedingatomato.Infact,interestinglyenough,Istudiedcultures,whattheydotoavoidlectins.

TheRomatomatowashybridizedtohavethemostpulptoskinandseedratio.YoujustthrowaRomatomatoandboilingwaterfor30seconds,pulltheskinoff,cutitinhalf,squeezetheseedsoutandintoapot[inaudible00:30:53].It’samazinghowcultureshaveadaptedtothis.Mygrandmotheronmymother'ssidewasFrench,andshetaughtmymotherthatyoucouldnotserveatomatosafelywithoutpeelingitandde-seedingit.AllmylifeIatefieldandde-seededslicedtomatoes,anditwasn’tuntilactuallyoneofmyfirstdaysatYalethatIwasservedatomatowithpeelsandseeds,andIthoughtitwastheweirdestthingI’deverseeninmylife,whowouldeatsomethinglikethat?

DaveAsprey: Goahead.

StevenGundry: GettingbacktoGreece.Interestinglyenough,thearthritisstraightinItaly,andGreece,andSardiniaisincrediblyhigh.Yeah.AnditwasoneofthethingstheSardinian’sactuallyhaveoneofthelongestlifespansofany.TheyactuallyhaveoneofthehighestautoimmunediseaseratesinallofEurope.I’mconvincedthatit’sactuallythesehealthyfoodsthathavebeenblockedbytheotherhealthyfoods.Theydrinkatonofoliveoil.Aleaderofoliveoilweekisconsideredagreatidea.Iactuallylikethatidea.Theydrinkalotofpolyphenols

inwine.TheGreekseathugeamountsofvariousplants.Purslaneisanamazingplantinandofitself.Itturnsoutthatweusedtothinkpurslanewasahearthealthyplant,becauseithasalotofomega-3fats.Itturnsoutmodernresearchshowsthatpurslaneissogoodforyou,becauseithashugeamountsofprebiotic’sinulinwhichfeedsfriendlybacteria.Ourfirstguessaboutpurslanewaswrongabouttheomega-3fats.Itwasactuallythatitwasincrediblyhighinmicrobiomefriendlyfiber.

DaveAsprey: Themicrobiomefriendlyfibereffectivelyincreasesshort-chainfats.Nottheomega-3’s,becausewhenyou’vegotbacteriadigested,itmakestheshort-chain.You’vegottheshortones,you’vegotthemediumones,yougotthelongones,andtheycanallbesaturated,whichiskindofweird.

StevenGundry: Yep.ThenicethingaboutyourMCTOilisthatit’samediumchainsaturatedfatthatdoesnothavetotravelonchylomicronstobeabsorbed,andIspendalotoftimeintheplantparadoxshowingpeoplethatMCTOilisincrediblyuseful.Becausetheselittleparticlesofbacteria,whicharecalledlikepolysaccharides,LPS’s,Idon’tswear,butinthebookIcan’tresistcallingthemlittlepiecesofshit,becausethat’sactuallywhattheyare.Thesepiecesofbacteriarideonchylomicronsthroughourgutwall.I’mconvincedthatthey’reamajorproblemineveryone’shealth.

DaveAsprey: Now,therearetwokindsofchylomicronswithdifferentmolecularweight.DoOPS’srideonbothofthem?

StevenGundry: Yeah,theycanrideonallofthem.ThereallycoolthingaboutMCTisthatitdoesnotneedachylomicrontobeabsorbedthroughtheintestinalwall.It’squiteunique.

DaveAsprey: Itis,andinseveraldifferentstudies,it’salsoprotectiveagainstLPStoxicityintherestofthebody.Evenifanotherfat,likeasaturatedfat,saybutter,wastocarrysomethingthroughinthepresenceofanMCT,theMCThasaprotectiveeffect.That’soneofthereasonsthatIputthosetogetherinBulletproofcoffee,wasbecauseifyouhaveahighfatdietwithoutenoughvegetables,withoutmaybeactivatedcharcoaltobindLPS,youwillcontributetoinflammation.Saturatedfatsthataredamaged,orwithanunhealthymicrobiomemightnotbeagoodidea.Right?

StevenGundry: Right.

DaveAsprey: Now,youmentionedsomethingaboutkidsinstrepthroatandantibiotics,thatdescribesmetoaT.Iwasobeseasateenager,Iwasonantibioticsformorethan15yearseverymonth,chronicstrepthroat.ButIlivedinabasementthathadtoxicblackmoldinthewalls,whichalsotriggersautoimmunity.Infact,thebigcategoriesofsuspectfoodsinthebulletproofdietarehighmicrotoxicfoods,highlectinfoods,highoxalicacidfoods.Whichtendto,actuallyoxalicacidisalsotriggeredbyfungalinfections,likeCandidainthebody,andtriggersgout.

Additionaluricacid,andthingslikethat.I’msayinglook,theseaffectdifferentpeopledifferently,butthey’renotgoodforanyofus.Whatinteractionsbetweentheautoimmunity,orjustbetweenthelectinsandtheseotherpoisonsmadebyfungus,andsomecases,bacteriaandwaterdamagebuildings,whathaveyouseeninyourpractice?

StevenGundry: Greatquestion.Thereisawonderfulwoman,Ididn’tputherinthebook,becauseshe’sactuallyaveryprivateindividual.Shecametome,shewasfromSanDiego,andhadboughtahousethatwasnewlyconstructed,butshedidn’tknowthatitwasconstructedduringalotofwetweatherinSouthernCalifornia.Shehadatonoftoxicblackmoldinherhouse,andshemovedout,andyouwouldknowhername,becauseshebecameabitofaworldexpertontoxicmold.

DaveAsprey: She’sprobablybeeninmydocumentarythen,becauseIdid…Maybenot.

StevenGundry: Shemovedouttothedesert,andsheliterallycouldnotgoanywhere.Shecouldn’tgotodoctor’soffices,she’dsenseit.Shecametome,shesays,“Ihearyou’redifferent.”Isaid,“I’lltellyouwhat,Ithinkthefundamentalproblemislectinsaresensitizingyou,yourimmunesystem,tofireatanyforeignsubstance,andtokickass,andtakenames,andwe’llfigureoutwhoeverybodyislater.”Isaid,“Humorme,takelectinsoutofyourdiet,andlet’sseewhathappens.”Sureenough,withintwomonths,shewasback.AllofherimmunesystemactivationsthatImeasuredwasdowntonormal,andshesays,“Oh,you’reagenius,itwasthelectins.”Isaid,“Well,no,no,no,themoldsweregettingyou,butItookawaytheotherprimarysignalsoyourimmunesystemcalmeddown.”

DaveAsprey: It’sdeathbyathousandcuts.It’soverallinflammatoryloadonthebody,andthewholeapproachforthewholebulletprooflifestyle,it,forme,islikehowdoyoulowerinflammation?Thereiscryotherapy,andcoldshowers,specificexercise,breathing,meditation,thosearealljustwaysofchiselingawayinformation.Takinglectinsoutisahuge,that’slikeabulldozer.Iwouldjustsay,there’salotofpeoplewhohavebeenexposedtotoxicmold,orwhohavechronicLyme,whichisalwaystoxicmoldexposuremediatedifyourLymedoesn’tgoawaywithnormaltreatment,youhavetoxicmoldthatbrokeyourimmunesystem.Iknowthat’scontroversial,butanyway,that’s15yearsworkingonthat.

StevenGundry: There’salotofuswhoseechronicLyme,andIthinkalotofusagreethatit’sreallynolongertheLymepersethat’stheproblem,butit’sthisongoingchronicinflammation.Whatmyjobasadetectiveistosay,“Okay,you’vebeenthroughgodknowshowmanyantibiotictreatments,andyoustillhaveallthesemarkersforinflammation.Youfeellikecrap,andyougotallovertheworld,andthere’ssomewonderfulpeopledoingthis.”Isaid,“Let’saddthispieceoftakinglectinsawayfromyou,becauseIcantellyouthatlectinsarereallygoodatpotentiatinginflammation.”IgetalotofpeoplewithLymethathaven’tgonedownthethroat,andknockonwood,nobody’sgot100percenttrackrecord.Ifsomebody

saystheygot100percenttrackrecord,don’tbelievethem.Alotoftimesthisworksjustgreat.

DaveAsprey: There’saprominentpersoninthehealthfieldwhoadvocateshighlegumehighbeankindofadiet.CamedownwithchronicLyme,andwehadsomeprivateconversations,like,“Youneedtogetsomebrainoctane.Youneedtodocyclicalketogenic.”Loandbehold,magically,thingsdidresolve.I’veseenthisoverandoverwhereit’sonethinginthedietthat’sholdingyouback,sothenyoucan’thandleotherthings.GrowingsystemicresilienceisactuallyacorepartofmyantiagingstrategywhereIwanttoturnoffinflammation,Iwanttomonitormyinflammationmarkers,andthenIwanttokeepdoingeverythingpossibletobeabletojuststayontopofthatsothatthebodycanrepairitself.I’mworkingonamethodofstackranking.HowdoIknowwhichlectinsmattermostforme?You’resayingcucumbers,butmostpeopletoleratecucumbersprettydarnwell.

Theoverallschemeoflectincontainingfoods,Iputthematthebottomofthelist,orwhitericeisanotherone.We’relike,“Youknow,wepolishedthebrownstuffoffforareason,somostpeopletoleratethose.”Yeah,itcouldbebrowneggs,ifyoutolerateeggs,they’reasuperfood.Ifyou’reallergictoeggs,staythehellaway,becausethey’refulloflectins.Stufflikethat.Howaresomeofuslisteningtotheshowgoingtoknow,doIjustavoideveryfoodwitheverylectin,andprettymuchIeatthemostboring,restrictivediet.IgotorestaurantsandI’mjustlikeDave,andItellthem,“Justputsaltonmyfoodalready.Idon’twantyourothercrap.”Howfardowndoyouhavetogoonthislist?Doyouhaveitstackrank,oristhereagenetictest?Howdoweknow?

StevenGundry: Well,yeah.Yeah,oneofthethingsIpublishedyearsagoattheAmericanHeartAssociationis,thereisahormonecalledadiponectin.Adiponectinisactuallysupposedtobeadarlingofweightlossandhealth.Istartednoticingthatmypatientswithautoimmunediseaseshadelevatedadiponectin’s.Isaid,“Gee,that’sinteresting,thisissupposedtobegoodforyou.”ThenIstartedlookingattheliterature,anditturnsoutthatpeoplewithrheumatoidarthritishaveelevatedadiponectin’s.Thenthere’sabeautifulstudyfromtheNewEnglandhealthstudyshowingthatskinnywomenwithelevatedadiponectinlevelshaveaveryhighincidenceofdementia.Thatdoesn’tmakeanysense.

IstartedlookingatanotherinflammatorycytokinecalledTNFalpha.Ishowedthatifpeoplehadanadiponectinlevelfromaparticularlabcalled[inaudible],whichisintheBayArea,above16thattheyweresensitivetomajorlectins.ThatusuallytheirTNFalphawaselevated.Ishowedin800peoplethatifyoutookthemajorlectinsawayfromthem,thattheirTNFalphawouldfalltonormal.Theiradiponectinwouldremainelevated.Iproposed,andIstilluseittothisday,thatanelevatedadiponectinlevelismarkerforlectintolerance.

DaveAsprey: Wow.

StevenGundry: Yeah.Now,theonlypeoplewhothatwon’tshowuponareobesepeople.Obesitywillabsolutelydepressadiponectin,butthefascinatingthingis,whenI

takeobesepeopleandputthemonmylectinlimiteddiet,thatastheyloseweighttheiradiponectinheadsupintotheabnormalrange,andIgo,“Iknewit,Iknewyouwerelectinsensitive.Hereyouare.”Ithinkthat’sareallygoodwaytostart.It’sacheaptest,anybodycandrawitonanybody.Ithinkifyou’re16orabove,yououghttopayattention.How’sthattostart?

DaveAsprey: That’shelpful.Youknowifyou’vegotaproblem,andhowdoyouknowifyouhaveaproblemwithcucumbersversusbellpeppers?Isthereawaytodifferentiate?

StevenGundry: Greatquestion.WhatI'lldo,andItalkaboutthisinthebook,let’scleanupyouract.Youcanhatemeforafewweeks.

DaveAsprey: Amen.

StevenGundry: Then,let’sstartreintroducingaclassoffoods.Let’susesmallcucumbers,let’susesmallzucchinis,immature,let’speeltheskins,giveitatryforacoupleweeks.Now,inmyoffice,whenwereintroducefoods,we'lldrawinflammatorymarkersonthem.Iftheinflammatorymarkersgoup,theymaynotevenhavefeltitbecauseit’ssosubtle,butwe’llgo…There’sagreatstoryinthebookaboutawomanwhohadrheumatoidarthritisherentirelife.Wegotheroffoflectins,wegotheroffallofherimmunosuppressants.Thesethingsarelong-termdeadlyasanyoneinthetransplantfieldknows.JustaskLenFryhowhefeltaboutimmunosuppressants.Shegotoffeverything,andshewasthrivingforseveralyears.

Ieventuallyseeherbackeverysixmonths.I’mlookingatherlabs,andshe’sgotthisTNFalphathat’supforthefirsttimeintwoyears.Isaid,“You’recheating.”Shesaid,“Me,areyoucrazy?Ifeelsogreat.I’moffofdrugs,myhandswork.WhywouldIcheat?”Isaid,“I’mtellingyou,there’ssomethinginyourdiet.”Westartedgoingdownthenofoodlist,andwegetdowntoAmericannuts.

PeanutsandcashewsareAmericanbeans,they’renotnutsatall.Soaresunflowerseeds,pumpkinseeds,andChiaseeds.Shegetsdowntocashews,shesaid,“Ohmygosh,I’vebeenonacashewkick,Iforgotallaboutcashews.Infact,I’vegotabagofcashewsinthecarrightnowthatIwaseatingonthewayhere.”Isaid,“That’sit.”Isaid,“Okay,comebackintwoweeks,throwawaythecashews.”Sureenough,hermarkerwentrightdown.

DaveAsprey: It’sinteresting.Itotallyrecognizethatsomepeoplearegoingtoreacttocashews,soIusecashewsintheBulletproofcollagenproteinbars,becauseyoubasicallyneedabindingagent,andIlookedatimmunereactivitytonuts.Cashewsareoneofthelowestnuts.Macadamiasaretoooily,youcan’tusethemforthatpurpose,otherwiseIwouldhave-

StevenGundry: Yeah,they’rethebest.

DaveAsprey: Yeah,youcouldputacoupleoftheminsomething,buttheydripoil.Ihavethehighestfatloadofanybarouttherebydesign,whichisawesome.Lotsofbrainoctane,whichisalsoliquidoil.Itwasatoughcall,becauseI’mlike,“I’dratherusenonutssoeveryone’shappy,butalmonds,howarealmondsfromalectinperspectiveversuscashews?”

StevenGundry: They’reprettynasty.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.

StevenGundry: It’sactuallythepeelofthealmondthathastheproblem,andactually,cashews,it’stheoutsidepeelthathasthevastmajorityofthetoxins.

DaveAsprey: They’resteamed.ThereasonIchosethemisthatyouhavetobasicallycookofftheouterlayerofthecashew,andyou’rejustgettingtheinnerthing.It’sjustlikepolishedrice.ItwasthelowesttoxinthingIcouldcomeupwith,versusIcouldusesodium[inaudible],ormilkproteinisolated,whicharejustcrapproteinsthatcompaniesjustthrowintheselow-carbbars,andtheydoitbecauseit’scheap.Thosearealsoinflammatorytotheotherpathways.It’shard.Iagree,ifsomeone’sreallytoughonlectins,cashewsmightnotberightforyou,butman,they’reprobablyoneofthebetternuts,or…Doyouagreewiththat?Orno.It’sokaytodisagree.

StevenGundry: Thereallysensitivefolk,theguyswithautoimmunediseases,Ican’ttellyouthenumberoffolksthatpeanutsandcashewsarerealproblematic.Icantellyou,personally,thatsunflowerseedswillthrowmyimmunesystemoutofwhack.Inthedoctor’sdiningroomatourhospital,IusuallymunchonwalnutswhenI’mwalkingby,andtheyranoutofwalnuts.Theyhadthisbigcontainerofsunflowerseeds.Thiswasactuallylastyear.Isaid,“Oh,whattheheck,Ihaven’thadsunflowerseedsinyears,Ineedsomethingcrunchy.”

Istartedeatingaboutaquartercupofsunflowerseeds.Irunmydogsabouttwoandahalfmileseverymorning.jog.Igotplant[inaudible]andtendinitisinmyleftfoot,whichIneverhadinmylife,andI’mgoing,“Wheretheheckdidthatcomefrom?”Ididn’ttrip,Ididn’tdoanything,Ididn’tchangeshoes.ThenalightbulbwentoffandIsaid,“Sonofagun,it’sthesunflowerseeds.”Istoppedthem,andtheplant[inaudible]resolvedwithinthreedays.

DaveAsprey: YouareoneofthetopeventcorrelationdoctorsasfarasIcantellfromyourthoughtprocess,youweresayingyoudrawlabpanelsforinformation.Youdon’thavetodrawalabpanel,allyouhavetodoiswakeupinthemorningandmakeafist.Ifyouhaveahardertimemakingafist,yourgripstrengthislow,oryouhaveapaininyourfeetthatyoudidn’thavebefore,it’saprettysuresignthatyouwereexposedtosomething.It’susuallyalectin.Itwasmoldyfood,mighthavebeenhistaminecontainingfood,itmighthavebeenoxalicacidcontainingfood.It’susuallyoneofthose,anditmightbesomethingelse.It’susuallyoneofthose.

Oryoudranksomebeerwhichhas[inaudible]Aorsomething.Thoseareprimarythings,butifyouhavenoinflammation,youwakeupinyourmusclesallworkwillcomeyourgripstrengthisstrong,there’saprettygoodcorrelationwithnoinflammatorymarkers.Atleastinmyexperience.YouhavealittlebitmoreclinicalexperiencethanIdogiventhatI’manunlicensedbiohacker.Doyoubuythat[inaudible]?

StevenGundry: Yeah,Ido.Thebasicthingis,whatIwanttodo,becauseI’maresearcher,isIwantedtoprovethiswithbiomarkers.Iwanttojustsay,“Hey,DoctorGundry,Iwentonyourdiet,andIfeelgreat.”Itwouldbetheplaceboeffect.Iwantedittocorrelatethefactthattheyfeltgreat,andthatwewerethrowingawaytheirbloodpressuremedsandthediabetesmedwiththeactualmarkers.Funnythingis,Ipublishallmystuffinacademicplaces,liketheAmericanheartAssociation,liketheEuropeanAtherosclerosisSociety.Idon’tgotothetouchy-feelyplacestoshowmydata.BecauseIwantpeopletorealizethisisscienceback.It’snotconjecture.That’swhatIhopeIbringtothetable.

DaveAsprey: Well,youhavethegreatscientificbackground,therealmedicalbackground.Correlatingthisstufftoinflammatorymarkersisreallyimportant.Alsounderstandingpathways.Let’sgotopathwaysforalittlewhile.Myperspective,asacomputerhackerbytraining,andabiohackernow,isIalwayslookfor,howdoImanipulateandmodifythesystem.Weassumeweknowhowthesystemworks,buttheremightbemissingpieces.Let’sokay,youcanstillhacksomethingwithoutknowingeverythingaboutit.

OneofthethingsthatIpublishinHeadstrongwasabunchofdifferentpiecesofdataabouthowlectinsinhibitmitochondrialfunction.Yourmitochondriaarethepowerplantsinyourcells,youknowthis,I’mjustsayingthatforlisteners,thatpowerplantsorbatteriesinyourcells,andcertainlectins,andI’mguessingit’sdifferentlectinsfordifferentpeoplebasedonyourmitochondrialDNA,thattheyliterallyinhibitthis.Whenyourlectinshityourmitochondria,itchangesyourleptin,notlectin,L-E-P-T-I-N.Leptinresistanceproceedsinsulinresistance,proceedstypeIIdiabetes,andit’sasignthatyourbodyisn’tmakingenergythewayitshould.

Youdon’tmakeenoughenergy,you’regoingtogetbrainfog,thenyouwon’tbeheadstrong.That’swhythebookiscalledthat.ArewelookingatcorrelationsbetweenmitochondrialDNA?Thisisthepowerplantwiringofthebody,andspecificlectinsensitivity?OrarewelookingatnuclearDNA,whichislikethephysicalhardware,thewallsandthefoundation,themeatofyourbody?Doweknow?

StevenGundry: No.I’mactuallyevenmoreinterestedinbacterialDNA.Becauseasyouknow,wegetallofourmitochondriafromourmother.Allmitochondriaarefemale.

DaveAsprey: Inthebacteriabyorigin,right?

StevenGundry: That’sexactlyright.Theyareallbacteriabyorigin.Cellsinvolvedthemmillionsofyearsago,billionsofyearsago.Thereisareallycooltheory,whichIascribeto,thatwegetallofourinitialbacterialloadfromourmother.Shecrapsonus.

DaveAsprey: Neverstopsinsomecases.

StevenGundry: That’sright.Ifyou’relucky.There’satheorythatthepresidentofthemicrobiologistsocietyhasthatwegetourfemalebacteriatotalktoourfemalemitochondria,andtheyactuallytextmessageeachother.Thatoneoftheproblemswithearlyantibioticsthatprobablyscrewsthiswholethingupisthatouroriginalfemaletofemaleconnection,andnooffensetoguys,ourmitochondriaarefemale.Isthatthatearlyconnection,thewiresgetcut.Whenanewpopulationofbacteriamove-in,thentheydon’thavetheintimateconnectiontotalktomitochondria.WhatIthink,yes,lectinscantargetmitochondria,there’snoquestionaboutthat,butIwanttogetthemclosertothesourcewhereIcanmanipulatethem.That’sinourmicrobiome.WhatIwanttodoisIwanttoreestablishthoseconnectionsbetweenthemicrobiome,ahealthymicrobiome,andnotonlyourimmunesystem,butmitochondria.That’swhereIliketodomyhacking.

DaveAsprey: Thetextmessages,thesignalsbetweenthegutbacteriaandthemitochondria,what’syourtheoryforhowthatmessageissent?

StevenGundry: There’safamousquote,andforgiveme,becauseIforgottheartist’sname,isthatrealityisascanningpattern.

DaveAsprey: Ilikethatquote,butIdon’tknowwhoit’sfrom.

StevenGundry: I’llsendyouapictureofit.Yeah.Igotinterestedinpatternmatchingveryearlyon,becauseofimmunology.Yougotinterestedinpatternmatching,becausethat’showyoucouldhackacomputer.We’rejustlookingatpatterns.Allcommunicationhappensateitherthecellularmembrane,orthemitochondrialmembrane,orthenuclearmembrane.Thisiswhereinformationisexchanged.Wearesostupid,wedon’trealizethatyoucantakeanuclearusoutofacell,andthatcellcandojustfine,andgettonsofinformation,andrespondtooutsideinformationwithouthavingacontrolcenter.We’vegotitallbackwards.

Thecellularmembraneiswhereallthehacksorallthecommunicationgoeson.That’showithappens.Thesebacteriaproducehormonelikesubstancesthatentereitherourlymphaticcirculation,orenterourblood,andtheythenattachtomembranes,eitherthecellmembrane,orthey’requitecapableofpassingthroughthelocksinacellmembrane,andattachtoamitochondrialmembrane.Theyexchangeinformation.Asyouknow,we’renowjustscrapingthesurfaceonthis,butthat’swhereallofusaretryingtofigureouthowtokeeptheselittleswallowedbacteriahappy.

DaveAsprey: There’sdefinitelythechemicalandhormonalcommunicationthathappens.OneofthethingsthatcametolightsotospeakwhenIwasdoingtheresearchforheadstrongistheeffectofbiophotons,wereyourgutbacteriamake5000morephotonsthanyourmitochondriamake,andyourmitochondriawilllistentothese,andsendfromthesethings.That’soneofthereasonswhyI’malloversleepinginadarkroom.Pitchblackroom,becauseitactuallyallowsyourmitochondriatohearyourgutbacteriabetter.Becauseifthere’salittleblueorgreen,orthere’sotherLEDsoutthere,itactuallychangesthisweirdcommunicationthatwouldbeinvisibletoyou.It’sjustalmosttoobizarre.Idon’tknow,Idothat,anditworks.

StevenGundry: Iagreewithyou.Totallyagreewithyou.Blackedoutroomissoimportant,becausephotonscangoactuallyrightthroughtheretina.

DaveAsprey: Infact,I’mgoingtohavetotalkaboutthesethings.Ididsomeresearchonmitochondriaintheeyes,andIdon’tknowifthere’salectinconnectionhere,butI’maskingyou.Itturnsoutthatfivepercentoftheretinalcellsare[inaudible]sensors.Theyhaveextramitochondria,buttheytakelight,andtheydon’tsetitintoyourvisualprocessingatall.TheysenditintotheSCNinthebrainwhichcontrolsyourdaylightcycle.Wemadethese,Isaywe,I’mabackerofthecompanywhodidthis,theglassesarecalledTrueDark.Theseglassesthatblockeveryspectrumoflightthat’sdocumentedtoaffect[inaudible].You’rebasicallytrickingthemitochondriainyoureyesintobelievingit’sabsolutelypitchblack,andIdoubledmydeepsleepifIweartheseforanhourortwobeforebed,andIdon’tgetjetlagatallifIusetheseonlongflights.

StevenGundry: HowdoIgetone?

DaveAsprey: Wow,it’salmostlikewearrangethisaheadoftime,exceptwedidn’t,butyoucantell,becauseI’munwrappingthemonthevideo.Theseareonthebiohackswebsite.ThereasonI'maskinghereiswe'regettingintothesebiosignalingthings.Whatdolectinsdoforbiophotons,whatdolectinsdoforsleep?Whatdotheydoforvision?Takemedownthatroad.

StevenGundry: Okay,sooneoftheguysItalkaboutinthebookwhosenameisTony,Tonyhadalopeciaandhehadhugewhitespotsonhishandinhisarms,andsomeonhisface.MichaelJacksonhadalopecia.

DaveAsprey: [inaudible],oralopecia,orboth?

StevenGundry: [inaudible],sorry,sorry.

DaveAsprey: Okay.

StevenGundry: We’reseeingabit[inaudible]earliertoday.Yeah,[inaudible].Lossofpigment.Whenhewentonmyprogramyearsago,hisvitiligodisappeared.Allofhiscellsgrewback,andhesaid,“So,howdidthathappen?”Now,Icouldhavebeena

wiseguyandsaid,“Well,mydietisveryanti-inflammatoryandsothat’showithappened.”Iwentnah,nah,nahthat’stooeasy.Ilookedintomelanocytes,andmelanocytesaremodifiedneuralcells.Now,theoriginalpredatorofplantswereinsects.Lectinsweredesignedtoparalyzeinsectsbystoppingthecommunicationbetweennerves.Makesgreatsense.

Isaid,“Waitaminute,thesearemodifiednervecells,andLectin’stargetournervecells,soitwasthelectinsthatweredoingthis.”Fascinatingly,Ilosttouchwithhim,andhesawmeataconferenceaboutfouryearsago,andhisvitiligowasback.Isaid,“Hey,what’sthedeal?”Hesays,“Ah,youknow,I’meatingsloppy.”Isaid,“Let’sdothisexperiment.Letmegiveyouthetwopageslistagain.Comebackonit,andlet’sseewhathappens.”WewerejustonapanelatHarvardthreeweeksago,onawellnesssymposium,andhewassittingrightnexttome,andhehelduphishandsandtheywereclearandhesays,“I’vegottotellyou,I’mlivingproofthatlectinstargetmelanocytes.”

I’vebeenfascinatedthatlectinshavepotentialtotargetthemelanocytereceptorsinoureyes,andscrewupourdeepsleepcycle.

DaveAsprey: Itgoesdeeperthanthat,andthisisprofoundstuffforme,youwillnoticeIhavearelativelydarktan,that’sbydesign.Insidetheeyeswehavetherentalmelaninthatisdeepinsidetheeyethatisn’tprotectingitfromsun,andin[inaudible]IreadaboutsomeresearchersinMexicowhoforlike10years,and6000patientsweretryingtofigureoutwhyistheresomuchoxygenintheeye,moreoxygenthanthebloodflowcanaccountfor.Itseemstoviolatelawsofphysics.Whattheyfigureitoutwasthatmelaninintheeye,orneuralmelaninhastheabilitytobreakwaterdownintofreeelectronsandfreeoxygeninthepresenceofinfraredlight,whichiswhatyourmitochondriamade.

Itturnsoutthisisactingasanextraoxygensource,andasanelectricalcapacitorwhenyouneedextraenergy,andtheeyesneedthemostenergy,andthebrainneedsthemostenergy.Ifyouareeatinglectins,andtheyaredamagingyourabilitytomakemelanin,you’rescrewed.Whatismelaninmadeoff?Melaninismadeofbranchedinterconnectedpolyphenols,whichiswhyyouandIkeeptalkingabouttakeyourpolyphenols,drinkyourcoffee,drinkyourtea,yourchocolate.I’mnotafanofredwinebecauseofthemycotoxinsintheglycosideandjusttherelativelylowpolyphenolcount,butokayfine,havesomeredwine,just-

StevenGundry: DrinkitfromEurope.

DaveAsprey: Yeah,drinkitfromEurope,takeyourglutathionewhileyou’reatit.Asamatteroffact,bulletproof.com/wine,Ihaveasourceformycotoxintestedwineswheretheyshipittoyou,whichiskindofcool.I’vehadsomegoodluckwiththataswell,butyeah,you’vegottobecarefulonthatstuff.Okay,soIjustgotofftrackthere,Iwastalkingaboutallthesepolyphenolsand[inaudible].Mytheorynowthatwe’rejustforminginourconversationhere,whichisfascinating,Ilovegettingachancetotalkwithsmartguyslikeyou,isthatpotentiallysomeofthe

brainfog…Infact,youwriteaboutbrainfoginyourbooktoo.Itcouldbecausedbythefactthatthesecompoundsthatplantsmadetokillinsectsareharmingourabilitytohaverobustenergyproductioninthebrainandtheeyes.

StevenGundry: Yep,yeah.

DaveAsprey: Doyouseechangesinvisualcontrastsensitivityfrompeoplewhoeatlectins?

StevenGundry: Veryinteresting,yearsagomywifeandIdecidedtodoacompletelyrawfooddiet.

DaveAsprey: Ididtoo,ruinedme.

StevenGundry: Theinterestingthing,weatemostlyleavesandoliveoil,weactuallyhadsomerawprosciutto.Weweren’tveganrawfood.Whichisreallydumb.Oneofthethingsthatwasreportedintherawfoodisliteraturewasthatcolorintensitygotmuchmoreintense.Inthathearingactuallygotmoreintense.I’vegottotellyou,theplaceboeffectmaybeonething,butIdidn’ttellmywifethis.Bothofus,ohIdon’tknow,amonthintoitsaid,“Youknow,it’sreallyweirdvisualcolorstheypop.”Wehadatreethatwasfullofbeeseveryyear,andaboutamonthintothis,Iwouldbeoutsideanditwasliketheroarfromthebeeswasalmostdeafening.I’mgoing,“Whattheheck?Aretheyallaroundme?”No,theywereinatreeaway.

Ireallydothinkthatlectins,andotherwords,weremovedallthegrainsfromourdiet,allthebeansfromourdiet.Ithinkthereissomethingtoallthis.

DaveAsprey: Thereisalotofsciencetobedonehere,andthePlantParadox,yournewbook,isdefinitelyputtingitoutthereinthepublicsphereinawaythatIhonestlydidn’tthinkthatthiswouldreachpublicawarenessthisfast.I’vebeenonthemycotoxintext,that'swhyIdidadocumentaryonit,becauseenvironmentalmold,notjustfoodmold,butthestuffyouarebreathingandallissuchahugeinflammatorytriggerforsomanypeople.Lectinsareatleastasimportant,theyarejustevenhardertoexplain.I’mgratefulthatyouwroteabookthatexplainsitwell,andI’mgratefulthatyouhavesuchgreatexperienceandsuchgoodcredentialsthatit'sveryhardforsomeonetosayyoudon’tknowwhatyou’retalkingabout.Theysoundlikeloonsiftheysaythat.

It’sokaytosayyou’rewrong,orthereisamistake,butdirectionally,yourbookisabsolutelylikesomethingthatisimportant,andIthinkwilljustmakeitswayintothenationalconsciousness.Where,isitpossiblethatthatsaladtheyareservingyouisjustcompletelyjackingyouupbecausetheyputallsortsofweirdstuffonit?Weirdfromanevolutionarybiologyperspective,butnotweirdbywhatyourmomate?

StevenGundry: Yeah.

DaveAsprey: Talkaboutfertilityinlectins.

StevenGundry: Well,asyouknowthereisahugeincreaseininfertility,andmen’sspermcountsareplummeting.Men’stestosteronelevelsareplummeting.Fortunately,Ithinkalotofthesearesomeofthesevendeadlydisruptorsthatwetalkedabout.[inaudible]isrightupthereonanybody’slist.It’sinteresting,andIeventalkaboutthisinthebook,fromaplantstandpoint,thelessoftheirpredatorsthatarealive,orthatreproduceisaverygoodthing.Fromaplantstandpoint,havingcompoundsthatinterferewithreproductionofyourpredatorwouldbereallyhighonyourpriorities.Peoplesay,“Well,waitaminute.Yousaythatplantsthink?”

Well,plantsdefinitelythink,notinthewaywethinkofthinking,buttheyaresentientbeings.Eveniftheyweren’t,evolutionarypressuresaffectplantsequaltoanimals.

DaveAsprey: CanIjustplugtosupportwhatyou’resayingthere.YouhavetoreadTheSecretLifeofTrees.Anyonelisteningwhothinksplantsaren’tsentient,justreadthatbook,theychangetheirtoxinsbasedonpredationreallyquickly.Whatyouaresayingthereisincredibleandproven,soalltheskepticswhojustdidn'tlistentothat,nowlistentowhathesays.Keepgoing,anyway.

StevenGundry: Yeah.I’llgiveanotherplug.OneofthebooksthatreallystartedmedownthispathwasMichaelPollan’sfirstbook.“TheBotanyofDesire”.Abouthowplantsmanipulateanimalstodotheirbidding.Thesecretlifeoftreesisthesameway,theseguysnotonlythink,buttheevolutionarypressuresarethatifyoucomeupwithacompoundorcompoundsthateithermakeyoulessedible,butmoreimportantlymakeyourpredatoreitherleave,ordie,ornotreproducethenthatcompoundwillbeselected.They’vehad400millionyearstodothis.We’vebeenaround2million,maybe.Boy,practicemakesperfect.Themorewerealizethatthishasbeenanongoingbattlefromthedaythefirstinsectcrawledontolandandsaid,“Man,thisisthegardenofEden,lookateverythingthereistoeat.”

Thewarstartedrightthen.Peoplehavetorealizethatitisanongoingbattle,andtheyarereallyclever.

DaveAsprey: Theyarereallyclever.Theygotoinhibitfertilityforthatreason.

StevenGundry: Yeah,exactly.Theproblemisweoverthelast10,000years,we’veevolvedtoeatanincrediblylectinrichdietofthingsweweren’tevendesignedtoeat.75%ofallthecarbonatomsintheaverageAmericancomefromcorn.5%ofthecarbonatomsinanEuropeancomefromcorn.Nobodyatecornuntil500yearsago.It’sjustsuchaforeigncompound.

DaveAsprey: It’sahighlectinandahighmycotoxinfood.

StevenGundry: Ohyeah,hugemycotoxinsincorn.

DaveAsprey: Yeah.Allright,I’vegotahardquestionforyou.IfyouhadtoeataplateofFrenchfriesmadewithpotatoesfriedincanolaoilfromarestaurant,orsmokeacigarette,whichwouldyoudo?

StevenGundry: Youknow,Ihavetogobacktomyfriendlyneighborhoodthe[inaudible],or[inaudible].Theysmokelikefiends.Theyeattaroroot,andactuallytarorootmakesgreatFrenchfries.Theyliveintotheirmid-90s,andtherehasneverbeenacaseofheartdisease,andtherehasneverbeenacaseoflungcancer,andtherehasneverbeenastroke.Iactuallytellmysmokersthattheotherthingsareactuallygoingtokillthemfaster,andifIhavetohavethemhaveadvice,andgiveupthethingsIwantthemtogiveup,I’mgoingtofillthemsofullofvitaminCeveryday,andsomuchglutathioneeveryday.I’lltradethemtheircigarettesatleasttemporarily.Iwouldchoosetohaveneither,butI’veactuallyneverhadacigaretteinmylife.

DaveAsprey: Meneither,Idon’tsmoke.

StevenGundry: Idon’tintendtotakeyouuponthatbet.

DaveAsprey: Soundslikeyouranswerisyouwouldsaythelowerharmisthecigarette?

StevenGundry: Right,yeah.

DaveAsprey: I’minagreementwiththat,[inaudible],andwedidthat.Okay,youareaformerpresidentoftheAmericanHeartAssociation,right?Weallknow,smokingisacrappyhabit,right?It’sjustthatfriedhighlectinfoodsfriedinbadoilsareevenworse.Yet,wehavesomanypeople,“Oh,Iwouldneversmokeacigarette.”Theyaremunchingondeathinalittlewaxpaperwrapper,andsoI’mlike,“Don’tdoeitheroneeither.”Whoknows,nicotineactuallyhashealthbenefits.

StevenGundry: Ohyeah,Imeannicotineisfantasticforyou.Imean,it’sgreatforyourbrain.[inaudible].It’sjustcurrentlywithabaddeliverydevice.

DaveAsprey: Isupplementwithamicrodoesnicotinespray,thelowesttoxincontainingwhenIcanfind.HasalittlebitofartificialsweetenerIdon’tlike,butit’stheleastharmfuloneandIwilldealwiththatsimplybecauseitisacognitiveenhancerassociatedwithallsortsofgoodstuff.I’mnotgoingtolightitonfirebeforeItakeit.AllrightDr.Gundry,Icouldtalktoyouforhours,andthishasbeensuchafuninterview,andthankyouforwritingthePlantParadox.I’vegotafinalquestionforyou.Ifsomeonecametoyoutomorrowandsaid,“Basedoneverythingyouknowinyourlife,notjustyourlife’sworkhere,buteverything.WhatwouldyoutellmeifItoldyouIwanttoperformbetterineverythingIdoasahumanbeing?”Thethreemostimportantthings,whatarethey?

StevenGundry: Numberone,obviouslygetlectinsoutofyourlife.Numbertwo,practiceintermittentfasting.Thelongeryougobetweenmealsthebetter.Thefartherawayyougobetweenyourlastmealandthetimetogotobed,thebetter.Numberthree,absolutelystayawayfrombluelight.Thosearemytopthree’s,butbelieveitornotprobablytheoneinthemiddleistheonethatmostpeoplecandoonamoment’snotice,butmostpeopledon’t.

DaveAsprey: Theoneinthemiddlebeing?

StevenGundry: Intermittentfasting.

DaveAsprey: Intermittentfasting.

StevenGundry: It’sinteresting,myfirstbookcameoutnineyearsago,andIhadawholechapteronintermittentfasting.Evenbackthen,fromJanuarythroughJune,Ionlyateonemealaday.Ididn’teatbreakfast,Idideatlunch,andIateallmycaloriesbetweensixand8o’clockatnight,so22thatoutof24hoursIwasfasting.BelieveitornotforthelastnineyearsI’vecontinuetodothat,infactJune1waswhenIfinallybrokefast.IbreakfastJune1.Iactuallyhadlunchtodayforthefirsttimeinsixmonths.MyeditorthoughtIwassuchouttherecrazythatwecutitdowntoaboutapage.Isaid,“No,no,nothisissoimportant.”Shesays,“No,you’rereallykookyanyhow,butthisiswayoutthere.”Nowofcourse,everytimeanewbookcomesoutonadietIjustkindofchucklewhenIlooktomyoriginalmanuscript.

DaveAsprey: Itistruethatfastingisalowlectindiet.

StevenGundry: Yeah,exactly.

DaveAsprey: Bytheway,itisalmost3intheafternoonwhereIamrecordingtoday.Ihaven’thadanythingtoeattodayyet.Justmycoffee.

StevenGundry: [inaudible].Yep.

DaveAsprey: Awesome.Itisindeed,althoughI’mstartingtogetreadyforsomegooddeliciousdinner.Withoutanylectinsinit,youcancountonit.AllrightDr.Gundry,wherecanpeoplefindoutmoreaboutyourworkotherthanpickingupyourbookonline,orwhateverbooksweresoldcalledthePlantParadox?

StevenGundry: Theycangotogundrymd.com,theycansignupforafreenewsletter.IposttonsofrecipesonmyYouTubechannel,andIposttonsofblogs.Bestplacetostartisgundrymd.com.

DaveAsprey: Awesome,wellthanksagainforbeingonBulletproofRadio.

StevenGundry: Hey,greattochatwithyou.Bigfan,andhopetochatagain.

DaveAsprey: Countonit.Ifyoulikedtoday’sepisodeyouknowwhattodo,goaheadandpickupacopyofthePlantParadox.Readit,andseeifthereissomethingyoucandoinyourdiettomakeyouperformbetter,makeyoufeelbetter.Becausehere’salittlesecret,whenyouhavelessinflammation,whenyouhavefewerlectins,whenyouhavefeweranythingelsethatpissesyourbodyoff,youhavemoreenergy.Whenyouhavemoreenergy,youareanicerperson,whenyouareanicerpersoneveryonearoundyoulikestheirlivesbettertoo.Itisreallyagoodinvestment,sopickupacopyoftheplantParadox.Whileyouareatit,ifyouhaven’treadHeadstrong,thesebooksareverycompatible,youlearnthingsfrombothofthem.SinceDr.GundryandIhavebothspentthousandsofhourswritingthesebooks,ifyoucanspend20secondsreviewingthemonAmazon,wewillknow,andwearethankingyouinadvance.