Deposition of Ignatius Chinn

¿** t*,

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTR]CT OF CAL]FORNIA

RUSSELL ALLEN NORDYKE andSALLIE ANN NORDYKE, dba TSTRADE SHOI/üS, JESS B. GUY,DUANE N. DAVIS, TASTANAVüERTYSCHYN, JEAN LEE, TODDB A L T E S , D E N N I S B L A I R , R . L .(Bob) ADAMS, ROGER BAKER,

MIKE FOURNIER and VIRGILMcVICKER,

P l a i n t i f f s ,

C a s e N o . : C 9 9 0 4 3 8 9MJJ

Çf f i RT¡ F I HÞ

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MARY V. KING, GATL STEH,E,W]LMA CHAN, KEITH CARSON,SCOTT HAGGERTY, the COUNTYOF ALAMEDA, and the COUNTYOF ALAMEDA BOARD OFSUPERVISORS,

ffiffipY

D e f e n d a n t s .

D E P O S I T ] O N O F

IGNAT]US H. CHTNN

sacramento , ca t l ro rn ia

Fr iday , March 17 , 2006

Repor ted by :L a u r i e D . L e r d a , C S RC S R N o . 3 6 4 9J o b N o . 6 8 0 B 9 8

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Esquire Deposition Services800.770.3363ffiffiFV

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Esquire Deposition Services800.770.3363

D e p o s i t i o n o f I G N A T I U S H . C H I N N , t a k e n o n

beha l f o f the P l -a in t i f f s a t Esqu i re Depos i t i -on

S e r v i c e s , 1 8 0 1 I S t r e e t , F i r s t F l o o r , S a c r a m e n t o ,

C a l i f o r n i a , b e g i n n i n g a t 1 - 0 : 3 9 a . m . a n d e n d i n g a t

1 1 : 0 8 â . f l . , o n F r i d a y , M a r c h I l , 2 0 0 6 b e f o r e

L a u r i e D . L e r d a , C e r t i f i e d S h o r t h a n d R e p o r t e r N o .

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APPEARANCES

F o r P l a í n t i f f :

LAVü OFFICES OF DONALD KILMER

BY: DONALD E . J . K ILMER, JR . , ESQ.

L26L L incoln Avenue, Sui te l -11

S a n J o s e , C a l i f o r n i a 9 5 1 2 5 - 3 0 3 0

( 4 0 8 ) 9 9 8 - 8 4 8 9

For the Defendant :

oFFrcE oF THE COUNTY COUNSEL, COUNTY OFALAMEDA

BY: RAYMOND L. MacKAY, Deputy County

Counse l

1 " 2 2 1 O a k S t r e e t , S u i t e 4 5 0

Oak land, Ca l i fo rn ia 9461,2

( s l - 0 ) 2 7 2 - 6 1 3 4

For the Deponent Ignat ius H. Ch inn :

Sta te o f Ca l - i fo rn ia , Depar tment o f Jus t ice

B Y : A L ] S O N Y . M E R R I L E E S ,

Deputy At torney Generaf

P . O . Box 1 "60481

Sacramen to , Ca l - i f o rn ia 95816-0481

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Esquire Deposition Servrces800.770.3363

INDEX OF EXAM]NAT]ON

EXAM]NAT]ON BY

M R . K T L M E R . . . . . 5 , 2 5

M r . M c K A Y . . . . . . 2 4

- -oOo- -

rNDEX OF EXH]BITS

PAGE

D E P O S ] T I O N

EX A ORDINANCE NO.

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BE IT REMEMBERED, tha t on Fr iday , March L7 , 2006|

c o m m e n c i n g a t t h e h o u r o f 1 0 : 3 9 a . m . t h e r e o f , a t t h e

o f f i c e s o f 1 8 0 1 I S t r e e t , F i r s t F l o o r , S a c r a m e n t o ,

Ca l j - fo rn ía , be fore me, LAURIE D. LERDA, a Cer t i f ied

Shor thand Repor te r in and fo r the County o f

S a c r a m e n t o , S t a t e o f C a l i f o r n i a , t h e r e p e r s o n a l l y

appeared

]GNAT]US H. CH]NN,

c a l l - e d a s a w i t n e s s h e r e i n , w h o , h a v i n g b e e n f i r s t

du ly sh /orn , was thereupon examined and in te r rogated

a s h e r e i n a f t e r s e t f o r t h .

- -oOo- -

(Exhib i t A was marked )

EXAMINATTON BY MR. K ILMER, ESQ. :

O . Wou ld you p lease i den t i f y you rse l f f o r t he

record

A . I gna t i us Ch inn , I -g -n -a - t - i - u -s , cap i ta l -

C -h - i -n -n .

MR. MacKAY: Counse l , be fore we beg in / can

we get the same s t ipu la t ion tha t a l - I ob jec t ions

i n c l u d i n q o b j e c t i o n s a s t o f o r m a r e r e s e r v e d .

M R . K I L M E R : Y e s r v t r ê c a n .

MR. MacKAY: Thank vou.

MR. K ILMER: A1 l - ¡ ì n r - r f - r r . ¡ i a ì 5 depos i t ion

o f I g n a t i u s C h i n n p u r s u a n t t o a N o t i c e o f D e p o s i t i o n

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i s s u e d b y t h e p l a i n t i f f s .

I am P l -a ín t i f f ' s counse l - Dona l -d K i l -mer

represent ing Russe l - l - A I f en Nordyke in Nordyke vs .

K i n g p e n d i n g i n t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s D i s t r i c t C o u r t f o r

t h e N o r t h e r n D i s t r i c t o f C a l - i f o r n i a .

A n d p r e s e n t a l s o .

MR. MacKAY: Raymond McKay, Deputy County

C o u n s e l - , A l a m e d a C o u n t y C o u n s e l ' s o f f i c e .

Thank you, s j - r .

MS. MERRILEES: And A ] l i son Mer r i l ees ,

Deputy At torney Genera l , counsel - for the F i rearms

Div is ion at the Cal - i forn ia Depar tment of Just ice.

0 . BY MR. K ILMER: Mr . Ch inn , can we re fe r t o

yoür should we refer to you as Mr. Chinn or can we

use your f i rs t name?

A . S u r e , t h a t ' s f i n e .

O . Vüh ich?

A . I g n a t i u s .

O . Thank yoü r I gna t i us .

Can you p lease s ta te fo r the record your

present employer?

A . T h e C a l - i f o r n i a D e p a r t m e n t o f J u s t i c e .

O. And how long have you been employed there?

A . A l i t t l - e o v e r f i f t e e n a n d a h a l f v e a r s .

A . W h o d i d V o u w o r k w i t h b e f o r e t h a t ?

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A. Oak l -and Po l ice Depar tment .

O. How long d id you work fo r them?

A. Twenty years f i ve months th ree days .

O. lühat were vour du t i -es w i th the Oak land

PoI ice Depar tment?

A. I was a pa t ro lman in pa t ro l_ in Spec ia l

O p e r a t i o n s f o r e l e v e n y e a r s a n d o n I - L 1 - 8 2 I w a s

promoted to serqeant and I was ass iqned to CID,

Cr imina l - Inves t iga t ion D iv is ion where I worked

approx imate ly fo r n ine and a ha l f years as an

inves t iga tor in burg lâ ry , und.ercover the f t recovery ,

n a r c o t i c s , a u t o t h e f t , r o b b e r y .

f was one o f the found inq de tec t ives who

s t a r t e d t h e g a n g u n i t a n d t h e n I r e t i r e d .

O. A l l r igh t . And then you subsequent ly went

to work fo r the Ca l i fo rn ia Depar tment o f Jus t ice?

A. Cor rec t . And fo r n ine and a ha l_ f vears I

h l a s a s s i g n e d t o t h e S a n F r a n c i s c o o f f i c e f o r t h e

C a l - i f o r n i a B u r e a u o f I n v e s t i g a t i o n w o r k i n g o r g a n i z e d ,

A s i a n o r g a n i z e d c r i m e a n d g a n g s .

A . O k a y . A n d w h a t i s y o u r e d u c a t i o n ?

A. I went th rough h igh schoo l - a t Oak land H igh .

I g raduated in '67 . And fo r many years I a t tended

Cal - S ta te Hayward whÍ l -e work ing fo r the po l i ce

d e p a r t m e n t a n d I ' m s t i l l i n t h e s e a r c h o f a d e g r e e .

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a . A l l r i gh t

. l - r ¡ ' i n i n n ?

Do you have any q n a n i ¡ l n n ' l i ¡ a

Ä I have been t ra ined i n n a r c o t i c

and packag ing and sa lesi den t i f í ca t i on , i n tox i ca t i on

opera t i ons i n c r im ina l a reas .

I ' v e a l s o w o r k e d f r o m 1 , 9 1 4 t o I g B l a s a

f i r s t i n sa les and then i n repa i r s f o r a gun s to re i n

Oak land , Ca l i f o rn ia .

Dur ing tha t t ime I a t tended numerous

seminars g iven by Co l t , Smi th & V{esson, the

Uni ted StaLes Army, Federa l_ Bureau o f Inves t ig ra t ion ,

Bureau o f A lcoho l Tobacco & F i rearms on f i rearms

nomenc l -a tu re and opera t ion .

in the Cal - i forn ia Depar tment of Just i_ce?

A. My Ímmedia te superv j_sor ís spec ia l agent in

c h a r g e C a r l o s S o l - a n o .

A l l r igh t . And who does he repor t to?

He repor ts d i rec t . l y to Deputy D i rec tor

Dal-e Furato.

A r e y o u P O S T c e r t i f i e d ?

Y e s . I h a v e a s u p e r v i s o r P O S T c e r t i _ f i c a t e .

Okay. And who is your immedia te superv isor

And then who does he repor t to?

He repo r t s d i rec t l y t o D i rec to r Randy Ross i .

A I I r i gh t . Thank you . And i f I d idn ' t ask


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you ea r l i e r , wha t i s you r t i t l - e now?

A. Spec ia l Agen t Superv íso r .

O. Al -1 r ight . Vühat are your responsib i l - i t ies?

A . My in i t i a l r espons ib i l i t y was to supp ly the

Fi rearms Div is ion wi th f i rearms exper t ise and

nomencl -ature and operat ions.

My secondary respons ib i l i t i es a re to

superv ise a crew of n ine specia l agents which have

invest igat ive responsib i l - i t ies f rom North Kern County

to Oregon which approx imate ly is 47 count ies.

I a lso have a c iv i l i -an proper ty cont ro l - fe r

under my superv is ion who cont ro ls our f i rearms

proper ty vau l t in Sacramento wh ich is fo r the who le

N o r t h e r n C a l i f o r n i a a r e a .

O. Vühen you superv ise these agents , what k ind

o f w o r k d o t h e y d o ?

A . V ü e l l , s j - n c e J u n e o f 2 0 0 2 w e ' v e b e e n d o i n g

w h a t w e c a l l - S e n a t e B i l l 9 5 0 c a s e s w h i c h a r e

P r o h i b i t e d P o s s e s s i o n F i r e a r m s c a s e s a n d f r o m o u r

program over 4949 Broadwayr âDy den ia ls tha t come

through there are re fe renced th rough CI & I fo r the

den ia l - background and then t -hor ¡ r ro rc fa rq¡sed to the

automat ic f i rearms sys tem to see how many f i rearms

are in tha t personrs name who is p roh ib i ted and why

t h e y h a v e n ' t b e e n e q u a t e d i n t h e s y s t e m w i t h n o

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l onger possess ion fo rms or in the sys tem as ev idence

o r f o r d e s t r u c t i o n . S o , t h o s e c a s e s a r e g i v e n t o u s

and then we make contac t w i th the peop le to f ind ou t

w h e r e t h o s e g u n s a r e .

We a l -so do undercover purchase cases f rom

cr imina l o rgan iza t ions wh ich we 've done f rom the

Vaqos Motorcyc le Gang and the Nor teno gang members

down in the cent ra l va l - lev .

And we 've done mach ine qun cases tha t occur

that when they come to us from people that want to

se l l - them to us , and we have respons ib i l i t y fo r gun

show compl iance w i th in the 41 count ies nor th o f Kern .

0 . Y o u r r e a b u s y g u y .

A . V e r y .

O . S o y o u ' r e f a m i l - i a r w i t h t h e p r o v i s j - o n s o f

the Gun Show Enforcement Ac t o f 20OO otherw ise known

a s P e n a l C o d e S e c t i o n 1 , 2 0 1 1 , . 4 ?

A . A n d o n e .

O. And one. Thank you fo r cor rec t ing me.

W h a t r r m ê ^ F r ' H a v e y o u e v e r t e s t i f i e d

as an exper t be fore?

A . Y e s .

O . O k a y . I n w h a t a r e a s o f e x p e r t i s e ?

A. fn assau l t weapons nomenc l_a ture and

opera t ion and mach ine gun nomenc l -a tu re and opera t ion


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and proh ib i t .ed possess ion nomencfa ture and opera t ion .

A . A n y t h i n g e l s e r e l a t i n g t o f i r e a r m s ?

A . N o .

O . W h a t i s a g o o d w o r k i n g d e f i n i t i o n o f a g u n

show?

A. I t I s an expos i t Íon by numerous vendors

showing o f f i rearms and accessor ies and ammuni t ion .

O. Okay. V Íha t a re some o f the venues fo r these

shows ?

A. You mean loca t ions where they happen?

O . Y e a h .

A . S t a t e a g r i c u l t u r a l s h o w p l a c e s , c o u n t y

fa i rg rounds, ho te l -s , convent ion centers and so on and

s o f o r t h .

O. Okay. Are you fami l ia r w i th the shows tha t

Russ and Sa l - l - ie Nordyke pu t on?

A . Y e s .

0 . Okay . And where are some o f the p laces they

have the i r shows?

A. The on ly show tha t I ' ve ever done compl iance

s u r v e i l l - a n c e s a t i s , a t t h e S a n t a C 1 a r a C o u n t y

F a i r g r o u n d s .

O. Okay. Are you ar^ ia re tha t there were shows

that used to take p lace a t the A lameda County

Fa i rg rounds ?

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aS I^¡e l - l -?

A

Y e s . I r m s o r r y ,

So you d id some

T r r q a r l l - n n n J . l r o r a { - n nu v Y v , e v v .

Iaw enforcement work there

Ä

Y o <

0. To your knowJ-edge do the Nordykes compl-y

wi th a l l - federa l and state laws whi le put t ing on

thei r gun shows?

V a q

O. Are they coopera t ive w i th law enforcement

üIhen they try and engage j_n law enforcement

a c t i v i t i e s a t t h e i r s h o w s ?

A . ü I h e n f f i n d a v i o f a t i o n I have gone to

s h e r e c t i f i e s i tSa l l ie and to l -d her about i t and

ímmedia te ly .

a . Can you

exampÌes of how

sure peop le a re

f i r ea rm laws?

And on one occas ion

who had brought sw i tchb l -ades

th is vendor ac tua l l y , two

The f i rs t vendor was

g ive any examples , âDy spec i f i c

the Nordykes have helped you make

in compl iance w i th the Ca l i fo rn ia

A Y e a h . T h e v h a v e n o t i f i e d m e

might be a p rob lem wi th one vendor .

t o g o o v e r a n d t a k e a l o o k .

tha t there

T h e y r l l a s k m e

i t was an

in and we

separa te

a s k e d t o

Oregon vendor

on one case

i n c i d e n t s .

n r r l - f h a q . | - r r f f. Y * "


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aüray and never b r ing i t back and he compl íed and

then in another show th is person ac tua l l y had

b l a c k j a c k s a p s a n d e v e r y t h i n g e l s e t h e r e a n d u n d e r

1-2020 those are a v io la t íon and we jus t r we ceased

t h e m a l l - a n d w e c i t e d t h e p e r s o n . S o , a n d t h a t w a s ,

you know, under the i r in fo rmat ion tha t someth ing was

go ing wrong a t tha t l -oca t ion .

O. And tha t was brought to your a t ten t ion by

the Nordykes?

A . R i g h t .

A . Have you ever a t tended any gun shows outs ide

of the Sta te o f Ca l - i fo rn ia?

A . Y e s .

O. Can you give me can you tel- l - me about

t h o s e ?

A . T h e l a s t t w o v e a r s w e ' v e c o n d u c t e d

surve i l lances o f the gun shows tha t occur in Reno,

Nevada a t the exh ib i t ion bu i l -d ino and a t the H i l ton

H o t e l .

O. Okay . And why are you t .here?

A. We I re avrare tha t numerous i l l -eqa l

t ransac t ions occur there f rom Nevada res idents to

Ca l - i fo rn ians and they br ing the guns back or

a c c e s s o r i e s l i k e h i g h c a p a c i t y m a q a z i n e s b a c k i n t o

t h e s t a t e i l 1 e g a l 1 y .

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A. V fha t a re the d i f fe rences , some o f the

d i f fe rences be tween a gun show in say Nevada or a gun

s h o w i n C a l i f o r n i a ?

A. Vüe1 l - , under 1 ,2011" .1 , and four a l - l - f i rearms

t ransac t ions has to comply w i th s ta te and federa l -

l a w s .

And we have in th is s ta te a sec t ion ca l - l -ed

12072 smal l - f ' d f r wh ich mandates tha t i f ne i ther par ty

in a t ransac t i -on is l i - censed, they have to comple te

t h e t r a n s a c t i o n w i t h a l i c e n s e d d e a l - e r .

f n N e v a d a t h e r e r s n o s u c h t h i n q . f f a

Nevada res ident iden t i f ies h imse l f to a vendor whose

not l i censed whose se l l ing guns on the tab le as a

Nevada res ident , those two Nevada res idents can

conduct a t ransac t ion w i thout do ing any backqround or

any th ing and then tha t person wa lks w i th the gun.

And September o f las t year we ident i f ied a

young As ian mal -e do ing th is a t a l -most 10 tab les

buy ing hand guns and assau l t weapons and we la te r

l -earned a f te r s topp ing h im a t Truckee tha t the Nevada

l - i cense was f raudu l -en t ly ob ta ined and tha t he was a

C a l i f o r n i a g a n g m e m b e r a n d h e i s c u r r e n t l . ' ' i n 1 - r ì ¡ l

in E l Dorado county on our charges now.

O. Are you aürare o f any o ther inc idents o f

Ca l i fo rn ia res idents a t tempt ing to evade Ca l i fo rn ia

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l aw by go ing to a Nevada gun show?

A . Y e s .

O. Can you p lease g ive me some examples o f

t h o s e ?

A. On two separa te occas ions f rom the

exh ib i t ion show we fo l lowed Ca l - i fo rn ia res idents

purchas ing assau l t weapons and h igh capac i ty

m a g a z i n e s b a c k i n t o t h e s t a t e a n d o n t h e t w o a s s a u l t

weapons cases the suspec ts have p led gu i l t y .

On the h igh capac i ty magaz ine cases the

s u s p e c t s h a v e b e e n - - h a v e p l e d g u i l t y t o f e l o n y

c o u n t s o f I 2 0 2 0 A . 2 . J u s t a b o u t e v e r y s h o w w e g o t o

hre come back with and we do detain someone who has

purchased f i rearms or h igh capac i ty magazínes

iJ - Iega l l y . The l -as t show we went to - -

rì I 'm go ing to i n te r rup t . V Íhen you say shows

in th i s con tex t , you ' . re ta l k ing abou t t he shows in

Reno, Nevada?

A . , Y e s , s i r . I r m s o r r y .

The las t show we went to we were our

surve i l - l -ance h /as ident i f ied bv the suspec t and we

l -a te r v is i ted h im in h is Grass Va l - l -ev home and he

sur rendered to us th ree assau l - t h reapons tha t he

purchased a t the Reno show.

S o , e v e r y s h o w h r e ' v e g o n e t o , \ n r e r v e b e e n


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ab l -e to watch an i l l ega l ac t i v i t y occur in the

park ing Io t o r in the show i tse l f and we have no

a u t h o r i t y i n t h e s t a t e s o .

O . I n t h e s t a t e o f N e v a d a ?

A. Nevada. So we have made an aqreement w i th

the Reno PD tha t we wou ld be there , bu t we woufd no t

take any ac t ion un t i l we were ab le to come back in to

C a l - i f o r n i a .

O k a y . A n d n e e d l e s s t o s a y p e o p l e

h igh capac i ty magaz ines and assau l t weapon

t a b l - e a t a C a l i f o r n i a g u n s h o w , t h e r e ' s n o t

g o i n g t o b e a t r a n s a c t i o n , i s t h e r e ?

se t t i ng

on the i r

even

A .

O .

A

N o .

I f y o u f e a r n o f i t ?

Y e s . A n d w e r v e s e e n s o m e a n d w e t v e a c t e d o n

them and those peop le have been ar res ted .

O . And the Ca l - i fo rn ia qun show promoters a re

he lp ing you in comply ing or en forc ing those laws,

a r e n ' t t h e y ?

A . Y e s s i r . Y e s , t h e y a r e .

0 . I r m g o i n g t o a s k y o u t o t a k e a l o o k a t i n

f r o n t o f y o u w h a t ' s b e e n m a r k e d a s E x h i b i t A . A n d

I ' m j u s t g o i n g t o i d e n t i f y i t a s t h e A l a m e d a

o r d i n a n c e t h a t r . f h a c , r l - r i a n l o f t h e l i t i g a t i o n h e r e

and ask vou to take a chance to read i t and l -e t me

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k n o w w h e n y o u t r e d o n e .

A . O k a y .

M R . K I L M E R : L e t ' s q o o f f t h e r e c o r d f o r a

s e c o n d .

( O f f t h e r e c o r d d i s c u s s i o n ) .

a . BY MR. K ILMER: Back on the reco rd .

f r d l i k e t o d r a w y o u r a t t e n t i o n t o

s u b s e c t i o n D w h i c h i s t h e o r d i n a n c e ' s d e f i n i t i o n o f

f i rearm and ask you to compare tha t to Ca l i fo rn ia law

and can you te1 I me is the de f in i t ion o f f i rearm

under the A lameda ord inance broader than the

C a l i f o r n i a d e f i n i t i o n ?

M S . M E R R I L E E S : M r . K i l m e r , i s i t o k a y i f I

have a lo r ie f conversa t ion w i th Mr . Ch inn?

M R . K I L M E R : O f f t h e r e c o r d . E x c u s e m e ¡ o D

t h e r e c o r d , y e s . O f f t h e r e c o r d .

( O f f - t h e - R e c o r d d i s c u s s i o n ) .

O . B Y M R . K I L M E R : B a c k o n t h e r e c o r d .

I asked you to compare the de f in i t ion o f

f i rearm in the A l -ameda ord i -nance to the de f in i t ion o f

t h e f i r e a r m i n C a l - i f o r n i a s t a t e l a w .

A . K l _ O n t .

0 . Do you have any ansbrer fo r me?

A. I t appears tha t in some areas i t i s b roader

a n d i n s o m e a r e a s í t i s n a r r o w e r .

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A. Okay. For example , the A l -ameda ord inance

wou ld c fass i fy as a f i rearm a revo l -u t j -onary h ia r e ra

m u s k e t , f l i n t l o c k m u s k e t ; c o r r e c t ?

A . C o r r e c t .

I r m g o i - n g t o a s k y o u t o t a k e a l o o k a t

Subsec t i -on F Subsec t i on fou r . Th i s i s t he pa r t o f

the ord inance that deals wi th except ions to the

possessj -on of f i rearms on county proper ty and

spec i f i ca l J -y au tho r i zes pa r t i c i pan ts i n mo t ion

pic ture te lev is ion v ideo and dance and theatr ica l

p roduc t i ons to possess f i r ea rms as pa r t o f a

product ion or event .

Do par t o f your dut ies in your work for the

Depar tment of Just ice inc lude regulat ion of f i rearms

connected wi th enter ta inment?

A . Y e s .

O. Okay. Can you te I l me what some of that

entaí I s ?

A . We ' re tasked w i th do ing the backg round

checks on permi t tees and prop houses that have

fede ra l - f i r ea rms l i censes and pe rm i t s t o possess

des t ruc t i ve dev i ces w i th in th i s s ta te .

0 . Okay . So i s t he regu la to ry scheme fo r

regulat ing the enter ta inment industry and the f i rearm

use in enter ta ínment industrv at l -east s imi l -ar to the

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regulatory scheme for regulat ing gun shows?

f t ' s a c t u a l l v m o r e s t r i c t e r .

0 . V r l h i c h o n e i s s t r i c t e r ?

A . T h e m o t i o n p i c t u r e i - n d u s t r y .

0 . O k a y . I s t h a t b e c a u s e t h e y h a n d l e

exp los ives and mach ine guns?

A . Y e s , s i r .

A . Okay . Vüh ich are no t normal ly fo r sa fe to

the genera l pub l i c a t a gun show anyhray , a re they?

A . N o t i n t h i s s t a t e ¡ f l o .

0 . Do you have any hobb ies re la t ing to the

f i r e a r m s ?

A . Y e s .

0 . O k a y . W h a t a r e t h e y ?

n f a t one t ime shot compet i t i ve lv and a t th is

t ime I have a smal - l co l - lec t ion .

O. Do you ever at tend gun shows for personaf

reasons and no t on the c l -ock?

A L a t e l y , r o r b u t I h a v e i n t h e p a s t .

O. A I I r igh t . V [ou ld you ever a t tend a gun show

t h a t d i d n ' t h a v e g u n s p r e s e n t ?

A . N o .

O. Vühy no t?

I rm no t , number one , no t i n te res ted i n

ant isue furn i ture or do l - ls and that I s normal- l -v what

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has taken the p l -ace o f the quns a t these shows.

O . So wí thout guns actual ly present at a gun

show, you have no in te res t in go ing?

A . N o .

O. And tha t wou ld be a s ta tement no t as a law

enforcement o f f i cer , bu t as somebody who is a lso a

co l - Iec to r and hobbv is t?

A . Y e s .

0 . Y o u r v e a c t u a l l y c o n d u c t e d i n v e s t i g a t i o n s a n d

made ar res ts based on conduct yor . t t ve observed a t a

N o r d y k e g u n s h o w , h a v e n ' t y o u ?

A . Y e S .

0 . O k a y . C a n y o u t e l l m e a l i t t l e a b o u t t h a t

case w i thout compromis ing the case?

A . I b e l i e v e I c a n .

O . O k a y . P l - e a s e d o .

A . B a c k i n 1 9 9 8 f d i s c o v e r e d a p e r s o n o u t o f

Napa, Ca l - i fo rn ia who was send ing mach ine 9uD, mach ine

guns in the mai l - to o ther gun dea lers .

A t the t Íme tha t I d iscovered tha t , I served

a search war ran t on the loca t ion and d iscovered more

mach j -ne guns and o ther i tems tha t v re re i l l ega l .

O . U h - h u h .

A Dur ing that t ime we Ì^ iere prosecut ing the

m a i n d e a l - e r w h i c h w a s n ' t t h e p e r s o n i d e n t i f i e d a s

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se l l ing the mach ine guns , and there was a t ime tha t

ac tua l l y spanned a per iod o f about n j -ne months where

we hrere prosecut ing the f i rs t dea le r and no

p r o s e c u t i o n o c c u r r e d o n t h a t p e r s o n i n N a p a .

Dur ing that t ime we learned f rom ATF that

that person hras se l l ing more machine guns out o f h is

house i n Napa .

0 . Fo r t he reco rd ATF i s?

A. Bureau of A]cohol - Tobacco and Fi rearms.

O. Thatrs the federa l - agency or the federa l -

counterpar t to the work that you do?

A. Yes . So , t o deve lop more p robab le cause , I

sent undercovers in to the Nordyke gun shows to

purchase more machine gun par ts f rom th is person

which they accompl ished.

O . o k a y .

A . And tha t ass i s ted me in re f resh Íng my

probable cause for another search warrant for the

house in Napa which occurred and we found more

machine guns, sawed-of f shotgunsr so on and so for th

a t t h i s l oca t i on .

A . O k a y . B u t j u s t s o w e ' r e c l e a r , t h e

sawed-of f shotguns and fut ly assembl-ed machine guns

were not a t the Nordyke gun shows?

A . N o . J u s t t h e p a r t s .

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Just the par ts Okav. What do some o f

t h e s e p a r t s f o o k l i k e ?

A Ac tua l l y , t hey a re pa r t s

n

t h e M 2 C o n v e r s i o n U n í t . I t i s a

tha t i s iden t i f ied bv the federa l -

S t a t e o f C a l - i f o r n i a a s i n i t s e l f

and i t conver ts M1 carb ine in to a

carb ine and some o f the par ts we

suspect were the d isconnect , the

o t h e r , t h e l e v e r s .

o f a un i t ca l l ed

seven p iece uni t

government and the

being a machine gun

fu l l y au tomat i c M2

bought f rom th is

p lunger , seve ra l

0 .

A

O k a y .

And we

have the part at

at the show and

A

a .

ac tua l l y - - ac tua l l y , when he d idn ' t

the show, we paid h im for the par t

he sent the par t to my undercover .

Vüould you have been abl-e to conductO . Okay .

th is inves t iga t j -on or th is undercover work were i t

no t fo r the gun show?

I t w o u l - d h a v e b e e n m o r e d i f f i c u l t , y e s .

Okay. fs there any th ing tha t Russ and

Sal - I ie Nordyke d ld tha t was i l J -ega l in connect ion

wi th a l low ing th is vendor to opera te?

I mean they weren ' t charged w i th knowledge

of h im se l l ing these mach ine gun par ts , r ^ re re they?

MR. MacKAY: Compound.

Cou l -d you break i t down.

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You star ted wi th one quest ion and you went

o f f t o ano the r .

0 . BY MR. K ILMER: I d id do tha t .

As par t o f your invest igat ion of that cr ime

regard ing the machine gun par ts , the Nordykes h/ere

not impl icated in that , were they?

A . N o .

O. D id you - - now these pa r t s t ha t you ta l k

about you ca l l a d isconnect and a spr ing

MR. MacKAY: And a p lunger .

O. BY MR. KILMER: - - and a p lunger , very good,

what wou l -d they look f i ke to the average person who

is no t as knowledgeab le as you?

A. Smal - l - mechan ica l par ts .

O . S o t h e r e ' s n o w a y t o k n o w w i t h o u t h a v i n g

exper t i se o r be ing somebody whose in the bus iness o f

s e l l i n g m a c h i n e g u n p a r t s t h a t t h e s e a r e i l l e g a l ?

A . Y e s .

O. Okay. So the open venue tha t gun shows

prov ide a l low you w i th your exper t i se to ensure

compl iance w i th Ca l i fo rn ia mach ine gun law?

A . Y e s .

0 . B y g o i n g t o t h e s e s h o w s ?

A . A b s o l u t e ] v .

M R . K I L M E R : N o f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s

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EXAMINATION BY MR. MacKAY:

O. The same is t rue for qun shows hel -d at

hote l -s and convent ion centers that you ment ioned; is

that r ight?

A . Y e s .

O. You ment ioned that voufd found some

v io l -a t i ons wh ich Sa l - l i e rec t i f i ed .

We¡e you ta lk ing about Sa l l_ ie Nordyke?

A . Y e s .

0 . V fha t v io la t ions are you re fe r r ing to?

A. The ou t o f s ta te vendor who brouqht in the

swi tch b lades and then the ou t o f s ta te vendor who

brought the b l -ack jack and saps and the swi tchb lades

t h a t o n e h r a s r e c t i f i e d b y u s t e l l i n g t h a t p e r s o n t o

get them o f f the tab l -e . The o ther one we ac tua l l -y

s e i z e d t h e í t e m s a n d c i t e d t h e Ð e r s o n .

a . Thank vou. You ment ioned tha t one reason - -

we l - l , you ment ioned tha t i f there hrere no ac tua f guns

at a gun show you had no , o r wou ld no t have any

in te res t in go ing to tha t gun show; i s tha t r igh t?

A . A s a p r i v a t e c i t i z e n , y e s .

O . I s one reason fo r tha t g iven what sounds

l i ke some extensive exper ience wi th hand guns or

f i rearms ?

A. Vüel - l , number one, i f I rnras going to a gun

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shohr

done

g o .

O .

A

scout ing

f i rearm

ô

for the

I I I A

p r i v a t e c i t i z e n , w h i c h I r e a l l y h a v e n r t

l o n g t i m e , t h e r e w o u l d n r t b e a r e a s o n t o

And why no t?

T h e r e w o u l d n r t b e a p o s s i b i l i t y o f s e e i n g a n

Y e s , I b e l i e v e s o .

And a t the Nordyke show there 's some type o f

o r g a n i z a t i o n t h a t a c t u a l l y p u t s o n s o m e

s a f e t y c f a s s e s t h a t I r v e s e e n o c c u r .

MR. MacKAY: Thank vou.

FURTHER EXAM]NAT]ON BY MR. KILMER:

Now the scout ing orqan i -za t ion i -s tha t l - i ke

shotgun or r i f l -e mer i t badge fo r the Boy


i tem that I woul -d be in terested in .

0 . I s i t equa l l y poss ib le tha t someone w i th

perhaps l -ess exper ience wou ld go to learn about bas ic

gun sa fe ty o r perhaps a f i rearm to purchase la te r?

W e l l , t h e r e a r e , t h e r e a r e c l - a s s e s g i - v e n a t

t h e s h o w s t o t a k e t h e w r i t t e n H S C t e s t s o t h a t ' s

educat iona l - .

BY MR. KILMER: And HSC s tands fo r?

T H E V ü I T N E S S : H a n d g u n s a f e t y c e r t i f i c a t e .

O. BY MR. MacKAY: And there are aspec ts o f qun

educat ion sa fe ty tha t cou l -d be met o r per fo rmed

wi thout the ac tua l - gun present ; cor rec t?

A

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Scou ts ?

A . I b e l i e v e i t r s a c t u a l l y , t h e y a c t u a l l y

put on the safety to I be l - ieve i t is a requi rement

for the i r marksmanship mer i t badge.

O. Jus t t o c la r i f y Mr . McKay ' s c l -a r i f i ca t i on ,

Sa l - l - i e Nordyke wasnr t i n v io la t i on o f any 1aw. She

brought a v io la t ion to your at tent ion so that you

cou ld rec t i f y t he s i t ua t i on?

A . Y e s .

O . Tha t was w i th respec t t o b lack jacks and

swi tchblades none of which are regulated by th is

Alameda ord inance?

A. No . They ' re regu la ted by the Ca l i f o rn ia

Pena l Code .

MR. K ILMER: Thank you .

No fur ther quest ions.

MR. MacKAY: No fu r the r ques t i ons .

Thank you.

(Whereupon the depos i t i on conc luded a t 11 - :08 a .m. )

- - o O o - -

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P u r s u a n t t o S e c t i o n 2 0 2 5 ( q ) ( 1 ) o f t h e

P r o c e d u r e o f t h e S t a t e o f C a l i f o r n i a , I

cer t i f y tha t I have read my depos i t ion

made those chanqes and cor rec t ions tha t

necessary , and approve the same as nohr

c o r r e c t .

D a t e d t h i s day o f

IGNATIUS H. CHINN


Code o f C iv i l

hereby

t ransc r ip t ,

f deem

true and

, 2 0 0 6 .

t , t

I

1

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REPORTER'S

f cert i fy that the

depos i t í on ,

CERTTFTCÀTE

r¡itness in the foregoing

was by me dury sworn to test. i fy in the within-entit led,

cause; ttrat said deposit ion was taken at the t ime andplace ttrerein named; that the testimony of said r¡ i tness

Iras reported by rne, a duly cerÈif ied. shorthand Reporter

of the s .ate of car- í forn ia author ized to ad.n in is ter

oaths and af f i rmat Íon; and sa id test inony hras

thereafter transcríbed into typer,r_rit íng.

r further cert i fy that r am not of counsel norat+'crney fcr either or any of the part ies to said.

deposi t ion ' nor in any way in terested in the outcome ofthe cause naned in sa id deposi t ion.

rN I'TTNESS '{TIEREOF, r have hereunto set ny hand> l /

th is â: day of APAtc 2006 _

fr,I,ATIRTEState

LERDA, R 3 6 4 9of Cal i fornía

" )

CHANGES/CORREC'IIONS

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1 3 : l lattention l3:8 17:7

26:7Attorney 3:22 6:llauthority 16:3authorizes l8:9autoT:12automatic 9:23 22:7Avenue 3:6average23:12aware l l :2313:21

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Lgg9,ø9-2ø L4r!2 *795 P.ø2,/Ø3

ORDINANCE NO.

AN ORDTNANCE AMENDING SECTTON 9.12.120 OF THE COUNTY ORDTNANCE CODEPROHIBITING THE POSSESSION OF FIREAR¡IJIS ON COUNW PROPERTY

rHE BoARD ot t'åt*ËT'i?Tr"åttãfi3i** oF ALAMEDA

seêr¡otr | '

That the Ordinance Code of the County of Alameda shall be amended by revising Section9.12.120 to read as follows:

9.12,120 Possession of Firearms on County Property Prohlblted

(a) '

Flndlngs. The Board of Supervisors finds that gunshot fatatities and inJuries are ofepídemic proportions in Alameda County. During the first five years of the 1990's 879homicides werÊ'committed using firearms, and an additional 1,647 victims werehospitali4ed wlth gunshot injuries. Firearms are the leading cause of death arnongyoung'people between the ages of 15 and 24 In Alameda County. Between July 1, 1996and June 30, 1997, 136 juveniles were arrested in Oakland for gun-related offenses. OnJuly4, 1998 a shooting Incidenton the Alameda County Fairgrounds resufted in severalgunshot wounds, other injuries and panic among fqir goers. Proh[biting the possessionof firearms on County property wíll promote the public health and safety by contribut¡ng tothe reduction of gunshot fatalities and injuries in the County.

(b) Misdemeanor. *aO person whci brings onto or possesses on County property afirearm, loaded'or unloaded, or ammunition for a firearm is gullty of a misdemeenor. .

'(c) ' -Counþ Propert¡1. As used in this sectlon, the term County property means roal .

. property, including any buildings thereon, owned or.leased Þy.t¡e County. of Alameda'.: .(hereinafter "Countyr), and in the County's possassion, or in the possession of.a publicor private enti$ under contract with the County to perform a public purpose, includin$ but

. not limíted to real propefi owned or leased by thei County in the unlncorporated andincôrporated portions of the County, such as the County park ín Sunol and the Alameda

. County Fairgrounds In the. City of Pleasanton, but does not inclúde any "local.publíc '

bulldlng'as def¡ned in Penal Code Sectlon 171b(c), where the State regulates. possession of firearms pursuant to Penal Code Sectlon 171b.

(d) Firearm. "Firearm'is any gun, pistol, revolver, rifle or any'device, designed or modifiedto be used as a weapon, from which is expelled thror.rgh a barrel a projectile by the force

. of an explosion orotherform of combustion. 'Flrearml does not include'imitationfirearme or BB guns and air rifles'as defined in Goverriment Code Sectíon 53071.5.

(e) Ammunition. 'Ammunitlon" ls any ammuniüon as defined in Penal Code Seðtlon12316(bX2).

(f) Exceptfons. Subsection 9.12.120(b) does not apply to the'following:(1) A peace officer as defined in Title 3, Part 2, Chapter 4.5 oÍ the California

FRof : L999,ø9-2Ø !42L2 *795 P.ø3/ø3

Penal Code (sections 830 ef seg.);.(2) t g,uard ol mgYs.engei of a financiál institution. a guard of a contract canieroperating an armored vehicle, á l¡censed private invest¡gätðr;;ãi.iõätä;;;j#;

Pmp.aly operator, or uniformed seclrity guard ar tnesõãriiñiñ;ãr" defined inPenal'code secllon 12031(d) açd who trol¿s a valid certíficatäis.räã Ëv me oefarimentof Consumer Affairs under Penal Code section 12ög3, while actuallyäploye¿ andengaged in protecting and preserving property or ¡¡re w¡tlri; th" säË" "f

hís or heremployment;(3) A p.ej!!|r holding a val¡d license tg carry a firearm.issued pursuant to penal' Code section 12050;(4) The possession of a firearrn oy an authorized participant in a motion picture,

television, video, dance, or theatrical proäuction oievent, when the parilcipant lararfr.rlfyuses the I'irearm as part of that production or event, provided that when such firearm is.not ln the actual posses'síon of the authorized particlþant. ¡t ¡s seìurôã'io pr"u"nt . .. unauthorÍzed use.

Countyroads;

.-- (6) A person lawfulfy using the target range operated by the Atameda CountySheriff,Q A federal criminal investígator or taw enforcement officer; or

- (8) A member of the military forces of the State of California or of the Unitedstates while engaged in the performahce of his or her dutv.

- .- '- -' -

(g) . Severability. lf any provision of this section or the application thereof to any person orcircumstance isheld invalid, such inv¿lidity shatl not aifect any other pàvisiän orapplícation of this section which can be giúen effect without ttrb i""ãi¡ä prouiiiåÀ o.'applicatíon, and to this end the provisionl of this section are severablã.

.SECTION II '

.This ordinance shall take effect and be in fdrce thirty (30) days from and aftei the date ofpassage and befoie the expfration of fifreen Oays afiei ité paósage it shall be published once'withthe names of the members voting for and againstlhe same in ihé lnter-City eipiesJ, ánewspeper published in the County of Alarneda.

-r ---'

{dop!e-d bV the Board of Supervisors of the County'of Alameda, State of Catifomia, on the 2l"rday of Septernber; 1999, by the following called vóte:

AYES:NOES;EXCUSED:

ATTEST: CRYSTAL K. HISHIDA, Clerkof the Board of Sup'ervisors, County of Alameda

. WILMA CHANPresident of the Board of gupervisorsCounþ of Alameda, State of Callfornia

By

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Deposition of Ignatius Chinn

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