A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism Search… Search Advanced search Board index ‹ General Dharma ‹ Open Dharma Change font size Email friend Print view User Control Panel (0 new messages )• View your posts FAQ Members Logout [ websat11 ] emptiness = interdependence? Forum rules Topic locked Search this topic… Search 297 posts • Page 9 of 15 • 1 ... 6 , 7 , 8 , 9, 10 , 11 , 12 ... 15 Report this post Reply with quote Re: emptiness = interdependence? by Dexing » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:25 am TMingyur wrote:Well from my perspective the notion "phenomenon" is not mistaken since it has a correlate in direct experience. What phenomenon can be directly experienced?
ground Posts: 1782Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am
Private messageEmail ground
Top
Report this postReply with quote
Re: emptiness = interdependence?
by Pema Rigdzin » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:58 am
TMingyur wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Well from my perspective the notion"phenomenon" is not mistaken since it has a correlate in directexperience.
Are you talking about a phenomenon that exists by its own power,permanently, devoid of dependence upon causes and conditions?
No. You are a philosopher.
Kind regards
Why, because I've analyzed a phenomenon and decided there are some criteria that must be met if it'sto be defined a certain way? If so, then what does that make you when you call me a philosopher?
Also, in your world, can someone who's main practice is free of conceptual elaboration or speculationof any kind not choose to employ logic when making an argument in discussion if he feels like it? Ishe still a mere philosopher if his ultimate reliance is not upon thoughts?
Pema Rigdzin wrote:Are you talking about a phenomenon thatexists by its own power, permanently, devoid of dependenceupon causes and conditions?
No. You are a philosopher.
Kind regards
Why, because I've analyzed a phenomenon and decided there are some criteria that mustbe met if it's to be defined a certain way? If so, then what does that make you when youcall me a philosopher?
You have introduced the concept of "existence". This is conditioned thought, an accumulated habitthrough conditioning oneself to philosophical thoughts.
Pema Rigdzin wrote:Also, in your world, can someone who's main practice is free ofconceptual elaboration or speculation of any kind not choose to employ logic whenmaking an argument in discussion if he feels like it? Is he still a mere philosopher if hisultimate reliance is not upon thoughts?
"Logic" is conditioned by assumptions and conventions. Since there is a variety of assumptions andconventions there is a variety of "logic". "Logic" actually is a class signifier.
Kind regards
ground Posts: 1782Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am
Namdrol wrote:[The point is whether the cognition is deluded or undeluded in a definitive sense. Theobject of an undeluded cognition is an ultimate truth. The emphasis lays on the cognitionapprehending the object, not the object. But since there cannot be a cognition at all sansan object, it is important to include an object in the formulation of how a truth is defined.
I select Chandrakirti for convenience since he is generally regarded as the authoritativecommentarial voice concerning Nagarjuna's corpus of Madhyamaka works.
If we were talking about the two truths in other systems, for example, Sarvastivada, Iwould cite Vasuybandhu.
How is your definition of cognition? Is is not as Santideva's Bodhisattva's way of life agrees:
"The ultimate is not the sphere of cognition.It is said that cognition is the seeming."
Please check the tibetan madhyamaka forum viewtopic.php?f=40&t=1321
TMingyur wrote:You have introduced the concept of "existence". This is conditionedthought, an accumulated habit through conditioning oneself to philosophical thoughts.
Once, I was in a beautiful hotel, never been before. In the morning was there a peep noise; atelephone, took it and listened. "Good morning this is the morning call we hope you had a good nightand expect you at floor... for breakfast..."I was so surprised, started to tell my whole life to that friendly voice. Later I came to know how thatthing worked.
Could hear the voice because the voice wasn't. ( how can it be on its own) So empty mind. If it hadbeen not a machine but a person, it had be the same.
Equality interdependent phenomena emptiness.
Only by this equality is there no clinging to appearances or clinging to emptiness possible.First there was nothing. Then God said: “ May there be light!” And there was light. There was still nothing, but now that was much better to see.
Sherab wrote:[]How is Dzogchen beyond cause and effect if emptiness is identical to dependentorigination?
Equality of illusionate dependency and emptiness. Illusionate world.
Nagarjuna: "Therefore you fully understood this world to have emerged from ideation. (Dzogchenbeyond concepts)And when emerging, you have declared, there is no arising and no disintegration".(or all phenomena are self arisen and self liberated) = no clinging possible.
Nagarjuna: "May all beings without exception become free from the bondage to signs." (from Hymnto the Buddha World Transcendent.)First there was nothing. Then God said: “ May there be light!” And there was light. There was still nothing, but now that was much better to see.
Interesting. I would say that "the dependent origination of the nidanas" and the "generaltheory of dependent origination" "are precisly the same thing" (to borrow your ownwords).
Kind regards
The nidanas are a specialized account of the process of samsara, there can be as many as thirteen andfew as eight, depending on what sutra one is reading.
The general theory of dependent origination runs something like the following:
Where this existeded, that exists;with the arising of that, this arose;Where this does not exist, that does not exist,with the cessation of that, this ceased.
In for the above to function, the above must all be empty, as Nāgārjuna extensively shows. Assubstantialist explanation of the above formula does not work.http://www.atikosha.orghttp://www.bhaisajya.nethttp://www.bhaisajya.guruhttp://www.sakyapa.netའ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
The very meaning of the Tibetan term Dzogchen, "Great Perfection," refers to the true primordialstate of every individual and not to any transcendent reality.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Malcolm Posts: 15228Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Namdrol wrote:The citation means that "empty" and "dependent" arecompletely interchangeable terms. It can be expressed as follows:
Something empty is something dependent;something dependent is something empty;something notempty is something nondependent;something nondependent is something notempty.The nature of the dependent is to be empty;the nature of the empty is to be dependent;the nature of the nondependent is to be nonempty;the nature of the nonempty is to be nondependent.
In other words, dependent origination and śūnyatā are precisely the samething.
N
How is Dzogchen beyond cause and effect if emptiness is identical to dependentorigination?
Sort of off topic but to answer the question: Dzogchen is a way of realization that is beyond causeand effect i.e. which does not require causal accumulations of merit and wisdom. It is not anontological state beyond cause and effect. The reason that Dzogchen does not propose an ontologicalstate is that since no phenomena at all are established in the basis, there are no ontological states at all,either existent or nonexistent. In Dzogchen, the term "dependent origination" refers solely to theprocess initiated by the knowledge obscuration of avidyā which falsely imputes identity to person andthings onto the appearance of the basis. Kadag and lhundrup may be understood as how nonafflictiveor preafflictive processes in the basis are described in Dzogchen teachings.
The very meaning of the Tibetan term Dzogchen, "Great Perfection," refers to the true primordialstate of every individual and not to any transcendent reality.
Malcolm Posts: 15228Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Private message
Top
Report this postReply with quote
Re: emptiness = interdependence?
by Rael » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:07 pm
gregkavarnos wrote:You know, after reading through the last three pages of this threadthe following question came to mind:
Is the dog chasing its tail or is the tail chasing the dog?dog.jpg
Woof!
the only problem i see is using the names of the likes of Nargajuna to impute ones own obscured viewunto the philosophy of Sunyata...
Sunyata is best left to someone who has realized it...not just understanding it's implications....andparroting quotes ...
any device used in this thread that in the slightest way deviates the reader from coming to the trueexperience is dangerous both for the author and the reader....Love Love Love
gregkavarnos wrote:You know, after reading through the last three pages ofthis thread the following question came to mind:
Is the dog chasing its tail or is the tail chasing the dog?dog.jpg
Woof!
the only problem i see is using the names of the likes of Nargajuna to impute ones ownobscured view unto the philosophy of Sunyata...
Sunyata is best left to someone who has realized it...not just understanding it'simplications....and parroting quotes ...
any device used in this thread that in the slightest way deviates the reader from coming tothe true experience is dangerous both for the author and the reader....
Guess we should just all shut up and go home.http://www.atikosha.orghttp://www.bhaisajya.nethttp://www.bhaisajya.guruhttp://www.sakyapa.net
The very meaning of the Tibetan term Dzogchen, "Great Perfection," refers to the true primordialstate of every individual and not to any transcendent reality.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Malcolm Posts: 15228Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Private message
Top
Report this postReply with quote
Re: emptiness = interdependence?
by Sherab Dorje » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:20 pm
A Classic comical anecdote about my favorite philosopher Diogenes the Cynic with (a degree of)relevance to this thread:
Plato was discoursing on his theory of ideas and, pointing to the cups on the table beforehim, said while there are many cups in the world, there is only one `idea' of a cup, andthis cupness precedes the existence of all particular cups.
"I can see the cup on the table," interupted Diogenes, "but I can't see the `cupness'".
"That's because you have the eyes to see the cup," said Plato, "but", tapping his head withhis forefinger, "you don't have the intellect with which to comprehend `cupness'."
Diogenes walked up to the table, examined a cup and, looking inside, asked, "Is itempty?"
Plato nodded.
"Where is the `emptiness' which procedes this empty cup?" asked Diogenes.
Plato allowed himself a few moments to collect his thoughts, but Diogenes reached overand, tapping Plato's head with his finger, said "I think you will find here is the`emptiness'."
"My religion is not deceiving myself."Jetsun Milarepa 10521135 CE
Sherab DorjeFormer staff member Posts: 10553Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pmLocation: Greece
Private messageEmail Sherab Dorje
Top
Report this postReply with quote
Re: emptiness = interdependence?
by Rael » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:21 pm
Namdrol wrote:
Rael wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:You know, after reading through the lastthree pages of this thread the following question came to mind:
Is the dog chasing its tail or is the tail chasing the dog?dog.jpg
the only problem i see is using the names of the likes of Nargajuna to imputeones own obscured view unto the philosophy of Sunyata...
Sunyata is best left to someone who has realized it...not just understandingit's implications....and parroting quotes ...
any device used in this thread that in the slightest way deviates the readerfrom coming to the true experience is dangerous both for the author and thereader....
Guess we should just all shut up and go home.
no...but when you make a stupid comment and a poster like moi points it out...at least accept themistake....maybe go back and show your not infallible...or is your image too important a thing asopposed to teaching whats proper...
by the way that was a pretty juvenile attempt and evasion....Love Love Love
Rael Posts: 477Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:36 pm
Private message
Top
Report this postReply with quote
Re: emptiness = interdependence?
by Rael » Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:39 pm
gregkavarnos wrote:A Classic comical anecdote about my favorite philosopher Diogenesthe Cynic with (a degree of) relevance to this thread:
Plato was discoursing on his theory of ideas and, pointing to the cups on thetable before him, said while there are many cups in the world, there is onlyone `idea' of a cup, and this cupness precedes the existence of all particular
"I can see the cup on the table," interupted Diogenes, "but I can't see the`cupness'".
"That's because you have the eyes to see the cup," said Plato, "but", tappinghis head with his forefinger, "you don't have the intellect with which tocomprehend `cupness'."
Diogenes walked up to the table, examined a cup and, looking inside, asked,"Is it empty?"
Plato nodded.
"Where is the `emptiness' which procedes this empty cup?" asked Diogenes.
Plato allowed himself a few moments to collect his thoughts, but Diogenesreached over and, tapping Plato's head with his finger, said "I think you willfind here is the `emptiness'."
with all due respect to Plato...i doubt very much if he was even alluding to sunyata and this sort ofthing could end up in a discussion of whether the cup is half full or half empty....which isn't reallygoing to help...
as are these statements which i find really taking away from the method of pointing to what emptinessimplies in the philosophy of Sunyata
the nature of the nondependent is to be nonempty;the nature of the nonempty is to be nondependent.
non empty.....i mean there is a reason you never read a teacher saying this before....lol
edit....the nature of non empty is even worse.Love Love Love
Rael wrote:non empty.....i mean there is a reason you never read a teacher saying this before....lol
edit....the nature of non empty is even worse.
You need to read Nāgārjuna again:
"If there were something a little not empty, there would be something to be empty;as there is nothing that is not empty, where is there something to be empty?"http://www.atikosha.orghttp://www.bhaisajya.nethttp://www.bhaisajya.guruhttp://www.sakyapa.netའ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
The very meaning of the Tibetan term Dzogchen, "Great Perfection," refers to the true primordialstate of every individual and not to any transcendent reality.
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
Malcolm Posts: 15228Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
