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TESTIMONY OF KARL JOSEPH DITOMMASO
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE HON. INGRID A. UHLER, JUDGE
DEPARTMENT 4RANCHO CUCAMONGA, CALIFORNIA
Case No. FWV-032194
ROBERT E. BOYCEAttorney-at-Law
DEBRA A. GODINEZOfficial ReporterC.S.R. No. 4491
MICHAEL A. RAMOSDistrict AttorneyBY: CHERYL KERSEYDeputy
District Attorney
TUESDAY, JULY 13, 2005 andWEDNESDAY, JULY 14, 2005
IN THE SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY TRIAL COURT DISTRICTWEST VALLEY
DIVISION, COUNTY OF SAN BERNARDINO
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
Plaintiff,
Defendant.
-vs-
Reported by:
For the Defendant:
For the People:
APPEARANCES:
SCOTT FREDERIC HARRISON,
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATEOF CALIFORNIA,
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CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX
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KARL JOSEPH DITOMMASODirect ExaminationCross ExaminationCross
Examination (Resumed)Redirect ExaminationRecross ExaminationFurther
Redirect Examination
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HON. INGRID A. UHLER, JUDGE
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RANCHO CUCAMONGA, CALIF; WEDNESDAY, JULY 13, 2005; 1:45 P.M.
DEPARTMENT 4
APPEARANCES:
The Defendant HARRISON with his Counsel,
ROBERT E. BOYCE, Attorney-at-Law; CHERYL
KERSEY, Deputy District Attorney of the
County of San Bernardino, representing the
People of the State of California.
(Debra A. Godinez, C.S.R., OfficialReporter, C-4491)
(Whereupon proceedings in this matterwere held, reported but not
transcribed herein)
(The following proceedings were heldoutside the presence of the
jury)
THE COURT: We are on the matter of People vs.
Scott Harrison, who is present with Mr. Boyce. Miss
Kersey is present. Former Sgt. Dean is present. Mr.
Ditommaso is present. We are going to start with the
examination of Mr. Ditommaso.
There had been a previous discussion in regards
to Miss Kersey made it amply clear that no statements
were made to Mr. Ditommaso except for the statements made
between her and Mr. Ditommaso in the presence of Mr.
Gebbie and Detective Perez that should have been on tape,
and I gave Mr. Boyce an opportunity to review the
transcript and listen to the audiotape of that
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2THE COURT: Mr. Ditommaso -- we need to swear him
in first.
KARL JOSEPH DITOMMASO,
called as a witness on behalf of the People, was sworn
and testified as follows:
conversation, and that should be the end of that.
Mr. Boyce?
MR. BOYCE: Maybe I should just ask Mr.Ditommaso.
THE COURT: You certainly can question him, if
you want to, outside the presence of the jury.MR. BOYCE: Mr.
Ditommaso
THE CLERK: You do solemnly state that the
testimony which you are about to give in this case shall
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE CLERK: Thank you. Please be seated.
Please state your full name, spelling your first
and last name for the record.
THE WITNESS, Karl Joseph Ditommaso,
D-i-t-o"m-m-a-s-o.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Mr. Boyce?
MR. BOYCE: Hi, Mr. Ditommasso. How are you?
Could we swear him in?I'm sorry.MS. KERSEY:
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THE WITNESS: Fine. How are you?
MR. BOYCE: Good.
Your attorney is Bill Gebbie; is that right?
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
MR. BOYCE: And have you had some conversations
with him about a letter that is going to be written for
you to the Parole Board?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. BOYCE: And your attorney told you that the
District Attorney would write a letter to the Parole
Board advising them of your cooperation and assistance in
testifying in this case; is that correct?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. BOYCE: And it's your belief that that might
help you get out on parole at some point?
THE WITNESS: I don't know, sir.
MR. BOYCE: Your attorney didn't discuss that
with you at all?
THE WITNESS: He said it possibly could, but it's
up to the Parole Board if I did get a date to go home.
MR. BOYCE: That's right. But you're hoping that
letter is going to help you get a date to go home, right?
MR. KERSEY: Objection. Relevance, your Honor.THE COURT: It's
overruled.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. BOYCE: Yes. Okay. Thank you.
I don't have anything further.
THE COURT: Okay. You could bring everybody
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in, Bill.
Since you've been previously sworn, we won't
swear you in in front of the jury.Move the microphone towards
you.
(The witness complied)THE COURT: Thank you.
(At this time the juryentered the courtroom)
THE COURT: Okay. We are on the matter of People
vs. Scott Harrison, who is present with Mr. Boyce. Miss
Kersey is present. Former Sgt. Dean is present. The
jurors and alternates are presently constituted.This is Karl
Ditommaso, and he has been
previously sworn as a witness.
And, Miss Kersey, when you're ready, you may
proceed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. KERSEY:
Q Good afternoon.A Good afternoon.
Q Now, your last name is Ditommaso. Just so we havesome
consistency, in the 1990's at some point you changed
your name from "Bragg" to "Ditommaso"?
A That's correct.
Q Would you like to be called "Ditommaso" at this
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point?
A Yes.
Q Now, we heard from a person named Lisa Bragg, nowMarkwart. Was
that your former wife?
A That's correct.
Q Your first wife?A First wife.
Q Did you have children with Lisa? I'll just call herLisa
Bragg.
A No, ma'am.
Q When do you recall getting married to Lisa Bragg?A It was in
April of '89.
Q And later you divorced Lisa Bragg?A That's correct.
Q Do you know when you got divorced or how long themarriage
was?
A I think it was in '93, I believe. It might have
been sooner.
Q How old are you now, Mr. Ditommaso?A I'm36.
Q So in 1991 how old were you? '91, '92?A Twenty -- 21?
Q Yes. How old were you when you got married?A I was
20-years-old.
Q And then throughout that marriage, you got divorcedabout four
years later, so you were about 24, 25?
A 24 or 25.
Q So that was pretty -- you were both -- were both of
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you the same age or --
A No. She's older than me.
Q Now, currently you're in custody.A That's correct.
Q You were convicted of murder?A That's correct.
Q Regarding the death of phil Perry?A That's correct.
Q And that conviction occurred in -- I want to sayApril, 2002?
2001?
MR. BOYCE: Leading.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Was it in April, 2002? If youremember. I don't
know the exact date. I don't have it
in front of me.
THE COURT: Why don't you ask him if he remembers
the date.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Do you remember?A I believe it was July or
August.
Q Okay. So late in the year?A Yes.
MR. BOYCE: Vague as to what year.
THE COURT: What year?
THE WITNESS: 2002.
THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Ditommaso.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) What I want to initially talk toyou about, Mr.
Ditommaso, is your relationship with
with Lisa, Lisa Bragg Markwart, okay?
A Okay.
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Q Now, back in 1991, where were you living? Whattown?
A Alta Lorna, California.
Q Where were you working?A For B&B Associates.
Q Can you tell us what B&B Associates were?A We were a loan
brokerage. People that wanted to
obtain a loan to purchase a house or refi, they'd come to
us and we'd help retain them.
Q You're saying -- who's "we"?A It was me, David Kong, Scott
Harrison. We all
worked together doing loans.
Q Who was the other "B" for? I assume one "B" was forBragg.
A Oh, it -- it was for -- it was not for no other
Bragg or nothing; just B&B. We came up with that becausewe
wanted to be closer to the front of the ads, you know,
in the Yellow Pages.
Q So who -- in 1991, '92, who generally -- you'venamed some
names -- Scott Harrison, David Kong. Who
else?
A Myself.
Q Did Robert Minor work there at the business?A No, rna' am.
Q Did he ever assist or help out in typing? Answeringthe phones?
Anything like that?
A He did occasionally.
Q What kinds of things would Robert Minor do
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occasionally?
A He would help either by transporting a package, like
delivering it to the lender for us --
Q So he didn't really have any special skills in
loanapplications or loan processing?
A He was trying to learn.
Q Now, how -- did you go to school to learn loanprocessing and
applications?
A Yes, I did. I took real estate classes.
Q And you said Scott Harrison was working there at
thebusiness?
A He worked with me, yes, ma'am.
Q So were -- was Scott Harrison a commissioned
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15 A Commission.
16 Q Was everybody commission?17 A Everybody was commission.
18 Q And what was commission based on?19 A If you brought the
loan in and we funded the loan,
20 you got paid a percentage of the commission that we made.
21 Q So who funded the loans actually? What company?22 A It
would be like Pin Fund Mortgage (phonetic23 spelling) .24 Q So if
people wanted a loan, you'd give them the loan25 paperwork, they'd
fill it out, then would you process
26 that loan and get a lender basically?
27 A Exactly. I was a middleman.
28 Q So the commission, then, for everybody would be
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Would you familiarize yourself with that?
(Pause)Do you see the location of B&B Associates at the
time, in 1991, '92?
A (No audible response)Q You're pointing to a blue square pretty
much in the
middle of the map. And is the address correct, 9631
Business Center Drive?
based probably on how much the loan was?
A That's exactly -- it's usually 1 or 2% of the loan
amount.
Q How long did you have that business?A I had it -- well,
actually I had it all the way up
until I got arrested.
Q So when would that have been?A 2001.
Q Did the business stay in the same location?A No.
Q Where did it move to?A It was in different locations in Rancho
Cucamonga,
and then we had an office that we ended up moving to
towards 2001 in San Bernardino off of Arrowhead.
Q There's a --MS. KERSEY: May I walk through the well?
THE COURT: That's fine.
MS. KERSEY: Okay.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) There's an exhibit that's been
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marked as No.1, which is just generally it's a map.
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A That is correct.
Q And where were you living at that time?A Up here on 19th.
Q Okay.Again you're pointing at Exhibit 1 to a blue
rectangle, and that indicates 8990 19th Street, No. 440?
A That's correct.
Q Now, there was a condominium that you -- at least atsome point
owned or processed. Do you recall the
condominium?
A The Minor's.
Q "The Minor's," meaning Robert and Elizabeth?A Robert and
Elizabeth.
the correct address, 8430, No. H, Spring Desert Place?
A Yes.
Q Thank you.During 1991 did Robert and Liz Minor live at the
condominium?
A Yes.
Q Did they at some point move to an apartment?A Yes.
Q When did they move to the apartment?A When they -- well, Bob
Minor lost his job and Liz
was not working, and that's when -- that's when they
couldn't afford to make the payments.
Q So they lost the condominium --A Yes.
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Q Again you're pointing to a blue rectangle. Is that
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Q in foreclosure?A They were losing it, and then a friend of
mine and I
picked it up.
Q When you say "picked it up," did you take over theloan
paperwork?
A Took over the loan paperwork, brought the payments
current and sold the property.
Q Where did Robert and Liz Minor move after living atthe
condominium?
A At an apartment complex on 9th Street.
Q Do you see that on Exhibit 1?A (No audible response)Q Again
you're pointing to a blue square, 1319 East
Ninth Street, No. 13?
A That's correct.
Q And at the time of the murder of Phil Perry wherewere Liz and
Robert -- where were they living?
A On 9th Street in the apartments.
Q So they had already moved from the condo?A (No audible
response)Q Is that a "yes"?A Yes.
Q How long did that condominium stay vacant, if youremember?
A I believe two months.
Q Was it during this va- -- was it vacant at the timeof the
homicide?
A Yes.
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Q Back then in '91, '92 was -- was your businessrather busy or
slow or can you characterize it?
A I was doing okay. I was pretty busy.
Q Now, you've talked about some of your employees.You mentioned
Scott Harrison.
A Yes.
Q Is he in court today?A Yes.
Q Would you please identify him for the record?A He's sitting
over there in the blue suit.
Q At the end of counsel table?A At the end of the counsel
table.
THE COURT: The record will reflect the witness
identified the defendant, Mr. Harrison.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) How long did Mr. Harrison work foryou there --
or work -- it sounds more like worked with
you is better than worked for you.
A Yes, because he was attending college at Point Loma
at the same time.
Q And I'm going to assume, based on what you've said,was he
drumming up his own business? Loan applications?
A Exactly. Anyone that wanted a loan that he knew, he
got paid for.
Q So you weren't telling Scott Harrison what to do asfar as
making assignments or --
MR. BOYCE: Objection. Leading.THE COURT: Sustained.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Were you telling Scott Harrison
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A NOt ma'am.
what to do as a supervisor would?
I'm not quite sure of
I believe I met him in 1988.
eventually did Scott get married
I was the best man.
It was in Point Lorna.
AYes.
A Point Lorna Nazarene School.
Q When did that wedding occur, if you remember?A I don't
recall.
Q Was it after phil Perry's death?A Yes.
Q How often during 1991 and '92 would you see ScottHarrison?
A Quite often through family -- I would say throughfamily
gatherings, holidays. Urn, he was down here on
weekends. We went to San Diego on weekends. We spent
Lisa's sister, Sheila.
Q And apparentlyto Sheila?
A Yes.
Q And did you go to their wedding?
Q Is that in San Diego County?A Yes.
Q How long did you know -- or up till 1992, give ortake, how
long had you known Scott Harrison?
A I met Scott through Lisa because he was dating
the name.
Q Now, you said that Scott Harrison was attendingcollege?
A Yes.
Q Where was he attending college?
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quite a bit of time together.
Q So just you and Scott Harrison?A No, the four of us, Scott and
Sheila and myself and
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5 Q Did Scott Harrison have a car?6 A No.
7 Q How would you get together to see him?8 A Usually at the
time he rented a -- I think it was a
9 Lincoln Towne Car (phonetic spelling) -- I'm not too10 sure
and then he used my Mercedes from time to time.
11 Q Would he ever ride the train?12 A Yes.
13 Q How frequently would he ride the train?14 MR. BOYCE:
Objection. Lack of foundation.15 THE COURT: Sustained without
further foundation.
16 Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Did you ever go to the train17 station and
pick him up?
18 A I don't recall. I think maybe once at - - urn, at
19 Union Station. I do believe he came in once.
20 Q That would be in Los Angeles?21 A Yes.
22 Q Was Scott Harrison at your business or at B&B23
everyday or what were the hours
24 A He was only there when he was in town, in Rancho.
25 Q Did he ever stay the night at your house?26 A Yes.
27 Q How frequently?
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on the weekends definitely, 'cause him and his wife would
come down here and spend the weekend with us.
Q Him and his wife Sheila?A Yes.
Q So that would be after the death of Phil Perry?A No. That was
even before.
Q You mean his girlfriend, then?A His girlfriend.
Q So if we're talking -- I mean -- I guess what I'mtrying to get
at is how often would you really see him
during that year, that time period? Like once a week?
Twice a week?
A Probably about -- at least three or four times a
week.'
Q And would you characterize your relationship asfriendly?
A Yes.
Q How close of friends were you?A We were very close.
Q When he was in town, did you do things together?A Yes.
Q Other than work?A Yes.
Q Was he -- was Scott Harrison the person that youspent most of
your time with as far as male friends at
that time period?
A At that time period.
Q Now, did you -- during this time also did you carry
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a weapon?
A Yes, ma'am.
Q How would you carry that weapon? Where ~on your bodyor how
would you do that?
A In a black bag.
Q What kind of bag?
A Like a little attache case bag that you have for --
like the front part had credit cards in --
Q Was it, like, a zippered case?A Yes, ma'am.
Q Why fid you carry one?MR. BOYCE: Objection. Relevance.THE
COURT: Sustained.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Did Scott Harrison carry a weapon?A Yes,
ma'am.
Q And what -- how did he carry his weapon?A In a similar-shaped
bag.
MR. BOYCE: Objection, 352, and I've objectedbefore, your
Honor.
THE COURT: And I'll make the same ruling.
Overruled.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) How frequently would Scott Harrisoncarry a
weapon?
A He had it with him all the time.
Q How frequently did you carry a weapon?A All the time.
Q Well, why -- why were you carrying a weapon?MR. BOYCE:
Objection. Relevance.
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THE COURT: Sustained.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Were you ever -- were you makingcash
transactions at a bank --
permit?
A No, ma'am.
MR. BOYCE: Objection. Relevance, 352.THE COURT: Overruled. The
answer. may remain.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Now, when Scott Harrison would staythe night,
did you ever see the weapon at your house?
A Yes.
Q In the same -- in this zippered case?A Yes.
Q And when you would see him at the business, did he
have a weapon?
A Yes.
Q Now, at some point in 1992 did you find out your
wife was having an affair?
A Yes, I did.
Q How did you find that out?A I found that out because I found
some letters
written to Mr. Perry from Lisa.
Q How did you find the letters and where did you findthem?
A In Lisa's car.
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Q
Q
Objection. Relevance.-- or --
Sustained.
Did you have a concealed weapons
MR. BOYCE:
(BY MS. KERSEY)THE COURT:
(BY MS. KERSEY)
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Q What kind of car did she drive?A At the time she had a white
Jeep.
Q And what were you driving?A I had a blue Mercedes 190E.
Q Did you have another car?A Yes, a Supra.
Q So you found the actual letters, though, in theJeep?
A Yes.
Q What did you do with the letters?A Held onto them.
Q Did you read them?A Yes.
Q At some point did you do something with thoseletters?
A I confronted her with it.
Q What happened when you confronted her?A She says they were
just friends.Q Did you know Phil Perry at that point?A Very
well.
Q How did you know him?A I knew him from St. Joseph's Church. He
was a
deacon there.
Q And when you say you knew him very well, would youdescribe
that relationship that you had?
A Well, he was kind of like a marriage
counselor/advisor. Whenever I had a problem, I'd talk to
him about it. Um, me and Lisa had a lot of marital
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problems, and he used to come and sit with us, talk to
us. He'd come to my office on Arrow in Rancho and sit
with me and talk to me, studied the Bible.
Q So at that time it sounds like he was somewhatacting as an
advisor or counselor to you and Lisa.
A Yes.
Q So when you found the letters, how did you feel?A
Betrayed.
Q Did you ever confront Phil Perry about the letters?A Yes, I
did.
Q What happened then?A He said there was nothing there; they
were just
friends.
Q Do you know in terms of time when you confrontedPhil
Perry?
A I don't know the exact time or date.
Q If you could, give an estimate in terms of -- like,for
instance, after January? Like January '92 till the
time of Phil Perry's death, was it in that time period or
was it prior to that?
A I think the very first time was before that.
in the end of '91.
Q So it sounds like, then, you confronted Phil Perrymore than
once.
A Yes.
Q So the first time you confronted him you hadletters?
A Yes.
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was a very friendly man. He'd walk up to you -- if he
didn't know you, he'd walk up to you and introduce
Q What happened the second time?A The second time was when I
confronted him with, urn,
Sandridge's. That's where he was doing some of the
classes, so I had been to one of his classes 'with Lisa
and one that Phil gave.
Q When you were talking about "one of his classes,"you went to
Danny Sandridge's residence?
A Residence.
Q And this is all courses about religion?A Yes.
Fahnestock or Fahn- -- I'm not correct on his name, but I
think it's Fahnestock.
Q Father John Fahnestock?A Yes, that is correct.
Q Did you know Father John?A Yes.
Q Now, did you -- at this particular time you wereaware that
Lisa was attending some kind of classes at the
church?
A That is correct.
Q Did you go to those classes with her?A Urn, a couple times I
did.
Q Is that how you initially met Phil Perry?
I believe it's
I met Phil Perry, urn, going to church. He
I actually went to -- urn, it was Danny
A Urn, no.
himself.
the head priest at St. Joseph's.
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Q So the second time you confronted Phil Perry,
whathappened?
A It was with John Fahnestock, and Mr. Perry said that
they were still friends. He denied everything. And then
Father John Fahnestock said that he was going to make
sure that everything would stop.
Q So in that meeting, I take it -- it sounds like youwere there,
Father John Fahnestock and Deacon Perry?
A Deacon Perry.
Q So there was some agreement that the relationshipwould
stop?
A Yes.
Q At that point in time did you believe it was just afriendship
or did you think there was more involved than
that?
A Well, per the letters there was more. It seemed
like there was more to it, but I was trying to give
everyone the benefit of the doubt.
Q Now, at some point did you obtain your wife's P.o.box location
and go to that P.O. box?
A Yes.
Q Did you collect letters?
A Yes.
Q And were any of those letters from Phil Perry?A Yes.
Q So it sounds like you had quite a few letters.MR. BOYCE:
Objection. Leading.THE COURT: It's overruled.
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Could you
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You could answer "y'e s " or "rio . II
THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Now, was there a -- did you everdiscuss with
your family this inappropriate relationship?
A Yes.
Q Who in your family was aware of the problem?A My mother, um,
Jose Brambila, which was my
stepfather, Tony Brambila.
Q Are all these people members of the same church?A Yes, we were
all members of the same church.
Q And what about your grandmother? Did she know?A I don't think
she knew the whole situation.
Q Did you ever talk to Liz Minor or Robert Minor aboutit?
A Liz Minor.
Q Without Robert?A Yes. Robert Minor was at the end, more so,
than at
the beginning.
Q Well, we're talking about the beginning.give us a time
frame?
A When I first received the letters, I talked to
Elizabeth Minor about it. When I got the ones out of the
P.O. box, Robert was present at that time.
Q Oh, he was with you at the P.O. box location?A Yes.
Q Now, in terms of time, do you know -- I mean, you'vesaid that
you found out about -- or got the first set of
letters around the end of 1991?
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A Uh-huh.
Q Is that yes"?A Yes.
Q Okay.And then when did you talk to people -- or when
did people become aware of the relationship in terms of
that and your second meeting -- or your meeting with Phil
Perry and Father Fahnestock?
A Well, the first set of letters I talked to my mother
about because at the time Lisa was working with my
mother. And I would say that was before Christmas. And
then around January -- I believe it was January or
February is when I found the other ones inside the P.o.
box.
Q At what point in time did you confront your wifeabout the
letters?
A Probably about a week after I found them in her --
inside the car.
Q That's the first time?A The first time.
Q Did you ever talk to her again about the letters?A ~.
Q Did you ever get intq a confrontation with her abouttheir
relationship?
A No.
Q So you were just collecting evidence?A Well, I also found
other letters, too, that she was
having -- she was apparently sleeping with another guy as
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well, your wife, Lisa
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well.
Q So where -- where did you -- I mean, at some pointyou had to
have some kind of confrontation with Lisa. Do
you know when that happened?
A Around March.
Q Was that after your meeting with, urn, Father Johnand Phil
Perry or before?
A That was after.
Q And during that confrontation in March with yourwife, was
anybody else there?
A Yeah.
Q Who was there?A Sheila, her sister.
Q At that point did MissBragg, deny the affair and say it was
over or --
A Yeah.
MR. BOYCE: Objection. Leading.THE COURT: Sustained.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Well, what happened during thatdiscussion with
your wife?
A She said that she's no longer seeing Phil. She said
she was now seeing this other guy she was apparently
having an affair with. She always -- for some reason she
always denied the relationship with her and phil.
Q Even though you had letters?A Yes.
Q Now, at some point -- you said that that was March
or thereabouts -- did you have any other confrontations
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with Lisa about her relationship with Phil?
A I think that was the last one 'cause that was also
the time that we mentioned about getting divorced.
Q At some point did you find out that Lisa waspregnant --
A Yes.
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told me.
9 Q And did you talk to her about who the dad, the10 father,
was?
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A Yes.
Q Did you ask her if Phil Perry was the father?A I did.
Q And did she deny it?A She said she didn't know.
Q Do you know, in terms of time, when that happened?A I believe
that was in April, the beginning of April.
Q Was that a -- did that -- I mean, I'm using the
word"confrontation." Was that an argument?
A Yeah, because she wanted to have an abortion.
Q And you didn't know -- well, was there a discussionbetween you
and her as to whether or not you, yourself,
were the father?
A Yes. She didn't know if it was me, Phil Perry, or
the man she's married to now.
Q Did that make you angry?A Yes.
Q And that occurred sometime in April?
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Phil came over and we still talked, but I believed
A Yes.
Q Did you ever try to personally talk to Phil Perryafter that
meeting that you had with Father Fahnestock?
wasn't supposed to be around either one of us.
Q Do you know when that -- when that informationwhen you learned
that from Father Fahnestock?
A Somewhere right after the meeting with him that
letter was issued.
Q And you received the letter?A Yes.
Q So you knew after receiving the letter that Phil
Perry was not going to meet with you?
time we talked with Father Fahnestock.
Q Do you remember receiving a letter from -- from PhilPerry
saying that he couldn't meet with you anymore?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever talk to him about why he couldn't meetwith you
anymore?
A Yes. He said that was because Father Fahnestock had
told him not to meet with me no more in regards to this
situation.
I mean,
was it something about it
well, for phil Perry to be
It was supposed to be that, urn, Phil Perry
I believed that everything was settled at the
A Yes.
A No. I believe that that was the last time.
with you and Lisa or with Lisa?
Q In other words, was itbeing inappropriate for you
that
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Q When did he meet with you?
A Like a week later. He came over to have coffee with
me.
Q At the business?.A Yes.
Q Now, at some point -- I'm going to jump ahead alittle bit --
you became pretty angry with Phil Perry; is
that accurate?
A That's correct.
Q At that point in time you were angry with him why?A I was
angry when I found out; that they were having
him about my father, I talked to him about my marriage
problems, and then I find out he's sleeping with my
ex-wife, which would be currently my wife at the time, so
I was very upset. I felt very betrayed.
Q Now, at some point you -- urn, you talked to yoursister,
Liz?
A Correct.
Q Did you ask Liz for a favor?A Yes, I did.
Q What did you ask Liz to do?A Go talk to him.
Q When was she supposed to go talk to him?A The night he
actually got murdered.
man because he was a deacon of the church. I trusted in
I opened up myself to thisI felt betrayed.
I talked to him about my personal life, I talked tohim.
an affair.
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Q Well, you knew in advance it wasn't an overnighter?A
Correct.
Q Were you at the hospital the entire time during thesurgery
that Monday?
A Yes.
Q So she got admitted and you waited for the surgeryto be
completed?
A Yes.
Q Okay.Do you know approximately what time she was
discharged from the hospital?
Q What were you doing that day?A I was at San Antonio
Hospital.
Q Your daughter, Elise, was havingA A tonsillectomy.
Q And that was an appointment that had been made inadvance?
A Yes, ma'am.
Q What time, if you recall, did you get to thehospital?
A It was early in the morning. I think 4:00 or 5:00.
It was an in and outpatient.
Q So you were there for -- basically when Elise wasadmitted to
the hospital that morning?
A Yes.
Q Was she supposed to be -- or was she let out thatday?
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A That night. I believe it was that afternoon.
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A I don't remember the exact time.
Q Well, could it have been around 6:00 p.m?
A It could have been.
Q After she was discharged, do you remember whathappened with
Elise?
A With Elise?
Q Uh-huh.
Q Yes. I took her home.
Q Was there anybody at the house with you that wasgoing to take
care of her?
A My grandparents and her grandmother.
Q Would that be Dorothy --A Merchain.
Q So were they already at the house or did everybodykind of
travel together?
A We all traveled together from the hospital.
Q Did you leave the house that night after gettingback from the
hospital?
A No.
Q Now, you had -- when did you talk to Liz to make
thearrangements for her to meet with Phil Perry?
A Liz was at the hospital.
Q I mean, at what point did you talk to her to meetwith Phil
Perry to ask her that favor?
A I believe a couple days prior to that.
Q Did you -- when you talked to her -- I mean, whatdid you ask
her to do exactly, if you remember?
A Just to go tell Phil to leave our family alone.
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Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Would there be people that would
Q Just to talk to him?A Yes.
Q Did you tell her that somebody was going to go withher?
A Yes.
Q Who did you tell her was going with her?A Scott Harrison.
Q Had you already talked to Scott Harrison and askedhim for this
favor?
A Yes.
Q And he agreed?A Yes.
Q Do you recall when you talked to Scott Harrison toget him to
agree to this favor?
A A couple days prior.
Q Now, was there some reason why you wanted Liz tomeet with Phil
Perry on the day of the surgery?
A No, .1 don't recall exact why, just -- I wanted -- Ididn't
care what day she actually met with him.
Q Well, you were -- you were at home, family memberswere there,
Elise was there on Monday.
A Correct.
Q So you would have people that would be able to saythat you
were at home on that particular day.
MR. BOYCE: Objection. Argumentative, yourHonor, and leading.
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THE COURT: It's leading. Sustained.
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say you were at home that day?
A Yes.
MR. BOYCE: Objection. Leading.THE COURT: Sustained.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Who could have said that you wereat home as
far as how many people were at the house?
A Three.
Q Okay.Who were they?
A Dorothy Merchain, Katherine Ditommaso and Frank
Ditommaso.
Q And your daughter?A And Elise.
Q Where was Lisa?A Lisa left.
Q Do you know where she went?
A I don't know. I had -- well, I ended up finding
out I heard she went to church to see Phil.
Q But did she come home from the hospital witheverybody?
A Yeah.
Q And then she left after that?
A She had to shower because Elise threw up on her
inside the hospital.
Q So once Elise got home, did you see her leave thehouse?
A Yes.
Q And what time -- or when did she come back?
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Objection. Leading.Sustained.
Did you receive a phone call?
Yes.
Q
A
Q From who?A Liz Minor.
Q And about what time, if you could recall, did thatcall come
in?
A It was late. I don't recall the exact time, but it
was late.
Q Do you recall whether or not Lisa had gotten homeyet from
church?
A Yes.
Q So it was after that?A Dh-huh.
Q Is that a "yes"?A Yes.
Q When you say "it was late," what does that mean toyou?
A I believe it was after -- I know it was after 10:00.
A After a couple hours.
Q But you -- you were there the entire time at night?A Yes.
Q At some point that night did you receive a phonecall
A Yes.
Q -- from Liz?A Yes.
.MR. BOYCE:
THE COURT:
(BY MS. KERSEY)
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9:00 or 10:00.
Q Did you talk to anybody else on the phone that nightother than
Liz?
A Just Liz.
Q Now, let's go back to the discussion that you hadwith Liz and
Scott a couple of days before, the 13th.
When you talked to Scott Harrison, was that on
the phone or face-to-face?
A I believe it was face-to-face.
Q What did you ask him to do?A I asked him to go tell Phil Perry
to leave us alone.
Q Leave "us," meaning --A My family.
Q you and Lisa?A Me and Lisa.
Q Did you tell him anything else?A And I told him to be as
aggressive as he needed to
be.
Q Did you tell him about the affair?A Scott already knew about
the affair.
Q How did Scott know about the affair?A Scott knew about the
affair when I found the
letters.
Q So is that something that you confided in him as hisbest
friend?
A Yeah.
Q How long -- if you could give a time, how long hadScott known
about the affair?
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information?
A He was very upset.
Q Upset with Lisa?MR. BOYCE: Objection. Leading.THE COURT: It's
overruled.
THE WITNESS: Yes, with Lisa.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Or was he upset with anyone else?A And
Phil.
A He knew all along, the whole time.
Q So as soon as you knew, Scott knew?A Yes. He knew before my
family knew.
Q Did he ever see the letters?A Yes.
Q Did you show them to him?A Yes.
Q Where did you keep the letters?A At the office.
Q Were they in any type of locked drawer or cabinet or
anything like that? Could everybody kind of look at them
or what?
A I don't recall where I had them in the office, but
it was inside my personal office at B&B.
Q Now, when you had talked to Scott Harrison about theaffair,
did he ever react to that information?
MR. BOYCE:
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
(BY MS. KERSEY)
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Q
Leading.
Overruled.
Yes.
How did Scott Harrison react to the
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the first time. There were plenty of times --
MR. BOYCE: Objection. Speculation.THE COURT: Overruled. You need
to let him
finish his answer.
relationship. Was Phil -- would Phil be at your -- or
why would Phil be at your mother's house?
A He'd come over, like, after work or at night and
kinda study because Liz and Tony and my brothers were all
taking classes with him, and he'd come over there. Lisa
Q Did Scott Harrison know Phil?A Yes.
Q Do you -- were you present -- or do you know howthey how they
met?
A I don't recall. I mean, they could -- there could
have been plenty at times that Phil was at my mother's
THE WITNESS: There were plenty of times that
they were at my house together. I don't know the first
time that they originally met.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) When you say "they were" --A Scott and
Phil.
Q At your house?A At my mom's house.
Q Okay.During family events?
A Family events.
I don't recall when was
"There were times ... "
I'm just trying to get the gist of the
So you could proceed.
Q So was
house when Scott was there too.
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A Yes.
Q "Yean?
was down in Rancho that Liz and all of us met.
Q Now, you said that you asked Liz for this favor?A Uh-huh.
Q Was that face-to-face?A Uh-huh.
would be there all the time. And then also when Lisa had
her open heart surgery, he was there continuously.
Q So he was at the hospital, you mean?A At the hospital and when
Lisa went home.
Q So how much contact, if you recall, did ScottHarrison have
with Phil Perry?
A Quite a bit.Q Now, when you asked Scott to do this for you,
you
told him to be what?
A Aggressive.
Q Did you give him any further instructions, otherthan be
aggressive?
A If he had to, slap him around, to let him know that
he was serious.
Q Serious about what?
A What he said, about staying away from me and Lisa.
Q Now, was anybody present during that conversation?A Liz.
Q Can you -- when did that occur?no, it was a few days ago --
a
It was the last time that Scott Harrison
A I think the day
few days prior.
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THE COURT: Is that "yes"?
THE WITNESS: Xes.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) And you asked Scott for this favorand that was
face-to-face?
A Yes.
Q Was that at the same time you were talking to him orwas it
separately?
A It was at the same time.
Q How -- did you give Liz any direction as far as howto meet
with Phil Perry?
A How to meet with Phil?
Q How to arrange this meeting.A No.
Q Did you ever talk to -- or did you ever ask her tomake an
appointment with Phil?
A Well, that I did, yes.
Q Now, was that supposed to be the meeting?A Yes.
Q You know, perhaps I should just ask it this way:What was the
plan?
A The plan was for them just to -- to set up a meetingand go
meet with him at the church.
Q Why at the church?A 'Cause that's where he was always at
usually. I
believe it was that night he was -- he did either -- I
think he had his class that night at the church.
Q So this is the night of the -- the 13th, thesurgery?
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A Uh-huh.
Q "Yes ll ?A Yes. He went to -- he went to the church.
Q So did you tell Liz to make the appointment forMonday?
A I didn't tell her -- I just told her to make
anappointment.
Q Did you know when the appointment was going tohappen?
A Yes.
Q Was that Monday?A Yes.
Q The day you were going to be at the hospital?A Yes.
Q Did you know or talk to Liz about what time theappointment was
supposed to be at?
A Yes.
Q Okay.What was that conversation?
A Just mainly I told her to make sure it was in the
evening.
Q Why?A Because he had -- I believe he had -- he had to
go -- by the time he got off work and he drove from
Pasadena and by the time I got horne with Elise and
. everything else
Q So you basically wanted to be covered during thetime of the
appointment?
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MR. BOYCE: Objection. Leading.THE COURT: Sustained.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Did you want -- did you want to besomewhere
else at the time of the appointment?
A Yes.
Q Now, how -- do you know how Scott Harrison arrivedin town, in
Rancho?
A On the train.
Q How do you know that?A 'Cause he told me he was coming down on
the
Metro- -- not Metrolink -- the Amtrak.
Q Did you pick him up?A No.
Q Do you know who picked him up?A Liz Minor.
Q How do you know that?A Because I told her to go pick him
up.
Q Is that a couple days before or the day of or --A The day it
was -- I believe the day of.
Q Was that already was that arranged already, too,for the day
of?
A For him to come down? Yes. When we discussed this,
he knew that that day he was coming down.
Q So -- and the discussion you're referring to was two
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26 A Yes.
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Deacon Perry was killed, can you describe for us the
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MR. BOYCE: Objection. Asked and answered.THE COURT:
Overruled.
plan, what you told these people?
A The plan was to go meet with Phil Perry and tell him
to leave me and Lisa alone and, if he needed to, be very
aggressive with Phil.
Q Well, when you said that to Scott Harrison, you knew
he carried a gun?
A Yes.
Q And did you know that he would -- well, did you haveany idea
whether he would carry a gun for that meeting?
A I believed he would because he carried it everywhere
he went.
Q Now, why did you ask Scott Harrison to do this foryou?
A Well, I just -- I wanted him to go there 'cause Iknew he was
more the aggressor than Liz and --
Q You mean Scott Harrison?A Scott Harrison. So I knew when he --
when he would
be with Liz, he would intimidate Phil.
Q Is there some reason you chose Scott Harrison,somebody you
knew to carry a gun --
MR. BOYCE: Objection. Leading.Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Did you ask
Scott Harrison to do
this because he carried a gun?
MR. BOYCE: Objection. Leading.
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Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Just explain to me why Scott
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41THE WITNESS: Because Scott Harrison was my
friend at the time and at the same time he was very upset
would be able
I didn't know, like,
I knew that they were going to meet Philmeet with Phil.
at the church, and that was it.
with Phil Perry, and I knew that he was
to get the point across to Phil.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) And "the point across" being?A To leave us
alone.
Q When you asked Scott Harrison to do this for you,did you
anticipate a murder?
A Absolutely not.
Q Did you ever say to Scott Harrison, you know, "willyou __ II
for instance ,,-- be rough with him and
aggressive?"
MR. BOYCE: Objection. Leading.THE COURT: Sustained.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Did you ever say to Scott Harrison,"Don't kill
Phil Perry"?
A No.
Q Did you -- I mean, you knew about Liz Minor makingthe
appointment, but did you know about the details of
making the appointment before that Monday? Location,
time, how she was going to get there, for instance?
Anything -- any other details?
A No. That was between -- pretty much between Liz and
Scott.
Q Why do you say that?A Because I did not know how they were
going to go
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who -- what car they were using or what car they were
going in.
Q On that particular Monday you said that you were --you were at
the hospital with Elise, correct?
A Correct.
Q I'm going to show you Exhibit 61 down here halfwaythrough the
stack.
Is this your signature here?
A That's correct.
Q Is this the admission paperwork for Elise, yourdaughter?
A Yes.
Q And what time did you sign that?A At 7:55 a.m.
Q So you were at the hospital to sign that?
A Yes.
Q I want to go to the point of time in which you gothome from
the hospital.
You say you received a call from Liz at the
house?
A Yes.
Q What did she say?A She said, "Scott killed Phil."
Q What -- did you leave the house after that?A No.
Q Did you do anything with that information?A No. I -- I just
sat down. I was shocked. I
couldn't believe it.
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Q Did she give you any other details, other than Scottkilled
Phil?
A No. She was crying and hysterical.
Q Did you ask her where Phil was?A No.
Q So that was it? That's all the conversation?A Uh-huh.
Q Is that "yes"?A Yes.
Q So you went to bed?A Later on.
Q What did you do the next day?A Went to Liz's house where Scott
was at.
Q When we're talking about "Liz's house"A Liz's apartment on
Ninth Street.
Q How did you know Scott was at the apartment?A 'Cause that's
where he stayed at that night. That
was arranged, that he -- that Liz was going to have him
stay at the apartment.
Q When was that arranged?A When she picked him up.
Q From?A Union Station.
Q So you knew that she was going to pick him up fromUnion
Station?
A Uh-huh.
THE COURT: Is that "yes"?
THE WITNESS: Yes, 'cause I told her to pick him
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up from Union Station.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) And you knew he was going to staythe night
--
A At Liz's house.
MR. BOYCE: Objection. Foundation, hearsay.THE COURT: It's
overruled.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) So the next morning you then go toLiz and
Robert's apartment?
A Apartment, yes.
Q And who was at the apartment?
A Liz, Bob, their children, Scott, Liz's girlfriend
that she was going to Missouri with and her kids.
Q Could it have been Utah?A Maybe Utah, yes.
Q And her kids?A Uh-huh.
THE COURT: Is that "yes"?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. BOYCE: "Her kids"? Obj ection. Vague.MS. KERSEY: I could
clarify.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) So at the apartment we have Liz andBob?
A Yes.
Q Their children?A Yes.
Q How many kids did they have?A At that time it was -- I'm not
quite sure if Aaron
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2 Q So there was more3 A There was three.
4 Q Three?5 And you said Scott?
Q How did you get there?
A I drove.
Q What did you drive?
A My car.
Q Which one?
6 A Scott.
7 Q And then you said "Liz's friend"?
8 A Dh-huh.
9 Q Do you know her name?10 A I don't remember her name.
11 Q And the friend's kids?12 A Yes.
13 Q What time, about, did you go to -- what time did you14 go
to the apartment?
15 A It was early. I don't recall. It was early
16 morning. I don't recall.
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22 A The Mercedes. The Mercedes 190.
23 Q Thank you.24 Once you arrived at the apartment, what
happened?
25 A I went and knocked on the door. The first person
26 that talked to me was Liz. She came outside to talk to
27 me.
28 Q You were alone?
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A Yes.
Q What did you talk about?
A Liz came outside and said that they went and met
Phil at the -- she pretty much ran down what took place.
She went and met with Phil. She knocked on the door,
told phil that -- urn, told -- I think it was the
priest -- that they had a meeting with Phil. They went
and got Phil. They took Phil out to his car and said
that she had car trouble and went around there --
MR. BOYCE: Objection. Hearsay.THE COURT: That statement is for
co-conspirator,
so overruled on that basis.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Let me break it down a little bit.Was part of
the plan that she was going to say
her car was broke down?
A Yes.
Q So you knew about that ahead of time?A Yes.
Q Did you know where -- or any of the details as towhere her car
would be broken down at?
A No.
Q But that was the plan as far as her asking Phil outof the
church?
A Correct.
Q Do you know if Phil Perry had ever met Liz, yoursister?
A Yes. Liz was attending his religious classes, plus
she met Phil quite. a bit at our house, my mom's house.
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Q All right.
So back at the apartment the following day Liz
comes out, you were discussing what happened the night
before; is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q Now, does she ever tell you where the body is?A Yes.
Q Where did she tell you the body was?A It was in his car in the
condo.
Q Phil's car?A Phil's car.
Q Was -- is that the first time you had heard thatPhil's car and
Phil were in the condo?
A Yes.
Q Well, the night before you didn't have anyinformation about
where he was?
A No.
Q So after talking to Liz for a little while outfront, what
happened?
A Scott came out.
Q Did you talk to Scott?A Uh-huh.
Q Yes?A Yes.
Q And was Liz present while you were talking to Scott?A Yes.
Q What did you talk to Scott about?A Scott just said things got
out of hand and he got --
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and Phil's dead.
Q Did Scott at that point indicate whether or not hehad killed
Phil?
A Yes.
Q What did he say?A "I shot Phil."
Q Did he say why?A No.
Q What did you do after that?
A We all went to breakfast.
Q Was that at Spires?A Yes.
Q Where is Spires?A On Haven and Foothill -- or a little -- it's
off
it's not exactly on that street corner but it's --
Q Who went to breakfast?A Everybody that was at the
apartment.
Q Okay.So everybody you named -- Liz, Bob, Scott, Liz's
friend
A Uh-huh.
Q -- you and the kids?A Uh-huh.
THE COURT: Is that "yes"?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Sorry.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Showing you what's been marked as
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Exhibit 14, does that look familiar to you?
A Yes.
MR. BOYCE: Objection. Foundation.THE COURT: It's overruled. I'm
sure she is
going to lay it with the next question.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) It looks familiar?A Yes.
Q What is it?
A That's a receipt from Spires Restaurant.
Q And is that your receipt?A Yes.
Q Did you save that?A Yes.
Q Why?A For tax purposes.
Q Okay.So this indicates April 14th, seven guests?
A Yes.
MR. BOYCE: Objection. Foundation, hearsay.THE COURT: In terms of
-- I didn't hear the last
thing that you read off, Miss Kersey. You said
MS. KERSEY: April 14th, seven guests.
THE COURT: It's overruled.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) So this is the morning -- themorning after
Phil Perry's killed, all of you then. go to
breakfast?
A Correct.
Q And do you discuss the -- well, now that you know,
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the murder at breakfast?
A No.
Q Does anything unusual happen while at breakfast ordid you guys
just eat and leave?
A We ate and we all ended up going to the condo.
Q When you talk about "we all," let's get some nameshere.
A Bob Minor, Scott Harrison, Liz Minor and myself.
Q Okay.So Liz, Bob, Scott and you?
A Uh-huh.
Q Just so we're clear, you're calling him Bob. That's
Robert Minor?
A Robert Minor.
Q At what point did you ask Bob to go with you to thecondo?
A Then.
Q At breakfast?A Right there at breakfast.
Q Did you tell him why at that point?A Bob already knew.
Q How did Bob know, if you know?A Bob knew from them at the
house, Liz and Scott
staying at the apartment.
Q When you say he already knew, he knew that DeaconPerry was
dead?
A Uh-huh, yes.
Q Okay.
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Q Did you look inside the car?
A Not at that point.
Q Did anybody stop and look inside the car?
A Bob -- Bob and Scott stayed in the garage, so I
don't know what they did at that time.
2 you go back to the condo?
3 A Correct.
4 Q What happened at the condo?5 A Well, that's when Liz and I
went upstairs and we
6 started arguing.
7 Q Just -- just you and Liz?8 A At that point, yes.
9 Q When you're talking about "upstairs," just so I have10 a
visual, is this a 2-story condo?
11 A Well, yes, 'cause the garage was downstairs, then
12 you had stairs that went up to where the living room and
13 the bedrooms and kitchen were at.
14 Q So you and Liz are. then in the living area of the15
condominium?
16 A Correct.
17 Q How did you enter the condo?18 A Through the garage.
19 Q When you entered through the garage, did you see
20 anything?
21 A Phil Perry's car.
22 Q Did you recognize the car?23 A Yes.
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Q So you and Liz then went upstairs?A We went upstairs.
Q What happened upstairs while you were arguing?A She said that,
urn, she was leaving and she was not
going to take the body down to Mexico.
Q Now, your -- when was Mexico discussed?A That was between her
and Scott. They wanted to go
drop the body off down in Tijuana and then have Scottdropped off
at Point Lorna.
Q So as far as you knew,they had discussed -- Liz andScott had
discussed Mexico before you came over in the
morning to the apartment?
A Correct.
Q So when did you first hear about Mexico then?A Right then and
there when Liz was talking about it.
Q And what was your discussion about with Liz on thebody
issue?
A She said, "You and --" "You and Bob are going to go
with Scott and the body and take it down to Mexico
because I'm leaving to go to Utah."
Q Where was the girlfriend and her kids?
A I think she took the car to go get gas or something
because she ended up coming back and picking Liz up.
Q "She" meaning the girlfriendA The girlfriend, yes.
Q picked Liz up at the condo?A At the condo.
Q So once Liz is gone, it's you, Bob and Scott at the
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condo?
A Correct.
Q Do you talk to Scott and Bob?
A About?
Q About going to Mexico.
A Yes.
Q Tell us about that discussion.A That discussion was that, urn,
Bob and I would be in
the Jeep, the white Jeep, and Scott was going to drive
Phil's car down to Mexico.
Q Why Mexico?
A Tijuana, actually. I don't -- I have no idea why.Q Was there
any discussion about where to leave the
car in Tijuana?A No, because as soon as we went across the
border,
they found an empty street and we just pulled over,stopped, and
left it there.
Q Now, why was Scott going to drive the Chrysler, notyou, for
instance?
A Oh, I wasn't gonna drive it.
Q Why not?
A I refused to.
Q Well, was there some kind of discussion in the condo
in the garage?
A Yes.
Q What was that?A Over who was going to drive the car, and --
and I
said "I'm not driving it."
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Q What about Bob? Was he gonna drive it?
A At first Bob said he would drive it. Bob was
scared. I was scared. I mean --
Q Why were you scared?A Because you've got a dead body in the
car.
Q But this is your best friend.A Well--
MR. BOYCE: Objection. Argumentative.THE COURT: Sustained.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) What I'm trying to get to, Mr.Ditommaso, is
you find out that Scott Harrison has killed
Phil Perry, and now there is a discussion about taking
the body down to Tijuana and it's just --MR. BOYCE: Objection.
Argumentative, leading.MS. KERSEY: Well, I'm getting to my
question.
THE COURT: I haven't heard the question yet,
so ...
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18 MR. BOYCE: Well, that's --
19 Q (BY MS. KERSEY) There had to have been a discussion20 in
the garage about the body, right?
21 A Uh-huh.
22 THE COURT: Is that "yes"?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Can you tell me about that25
discussion?
26 A You mean about where we were taking the body?
27 Q Yes.28 A Yeah, it was discussed. It was already set
that
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they were taking it to Mexico.
Q Who said that?A Scott said it.
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4 Q So whose idea was it?5 MR. BOYCE: Objection6 THE WITNESS: I
don't know.
7 MR. BOYCE: Withdrawn.
8 THE COURT: Thank you.
9 THE WITNESS: It was either -- it was done prior.
10 MR. BOYCE: Objection. Nonresponsive.11 THE COURT:
Sustained.
12 Next question.
13 Q (BY MS. KERSEY) So it sounds like, Mr. Ditommaso,14 the
decision to go to Mexico was already made.
15 A Correct.
16 Q So you went along with it, in other words?17 A Yes.
18 Q What about Bob? Did he go along with it?19 A Yes.
20 Q So you moved from where you're going to take the21 body
right away to who's going to drive the car?
22 A Correct.
23 Q Did you look at some point while in the garage at
24 the body?
25 A I opened the door.
26 Q What door?27 A The back door of the Chrysler.
28 Q What did you see?
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A Well, there was a bunch of bags on top of him, so
you couldn't really see him. You saw -- I saw a foot.
Q Now, when you're saying "a bunch .of bags," do youknow how the
bags .got on top of Mr. Perry?
A Scott was taking them out of the trunk and putting
them on the back seat.
Q Did you see him do that?A At the end -- the final last few I
did when I came
downstairs from being with Liz.
Q So Scott was making an effort to conceal Mr. Perry?A
Correct.
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12 Q What was Mr. Minor doing at that time?13 A Helping him.
14 Q How was he helping him?15 A Grabbing the bags out of the
trunk.
16 Q Looking at Exhibit 27, does that look familiar to17
you?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Why is that familiar?20 A That's Phil's car.
21 Q Is that Phil's body?22 A Yes.
23 Q Now, looking at Exhibit 30, can you describe that24 for the
jurors?25 A It's the back seat of Mr. Perry's car with clothes
26 and a black bag of -- that's how I saw it in Liz's condo.
27 Q So when you first saw Mr. Perry, that's how you saw28 him
in the sense of the clothes were on top of Mr. Perry?
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I know I misspoke that, but --
A Yes.
Q And there's a black Hefty bag. Is that what you sawon the back
seat of the car?
A Yes.
MR. BOYCE: For the record, what exhibit is that,
counsel?
MS. KERSEY: I'm sorry. I'll get it.
Is it 31?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Now, when you said you "opened theback door"
--
A Correct.
Q -- passenger side or driver's side?A Driver's side.
Q And that's where you saw his feet?A Correct.
Q So looking at Exhibit 26, what is that?A It's a picture of
Phil Perry.
Q In the back seat of the car?A In the back seat of the car.
Q And where are his feet?A On top of the seat.
Q Is that the driver's side or the passenger side?A Driver's
side.
MR. BOYCE: I'm sorry. What exhibit number was
that, your Honor?
THE COURT: Court Exhibit, again, No. --
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car?
A Yes. It was not spilling out of the car. It was --
MS. KERSEY: That was 26.
THE COURT: -- 26.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Now, do you know where these
You could take the other two exhibits
Okay.
They've been up there for awhile.
Could I take this down?
THE COURT: Sure.
MS. KERSEY: Could you hold those, please?
(Pause)I think I need to go to a craft store and get
clothes came from?
A The trunk.
Q The Hefty bags?
A The trunk.
Q All of them?
A Uh-huh.
Q Is that lIyes"?
A Yes.
THE COURT:
down if you want.
MS. KERSEY:
THE COURT:
MS. KERSEY:
THE COURT: There are a couple more in the corner
there. The red ones are the strongest, obviously.
MS. KERSEY: There.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Now, did you -- did you ever noticewhether or
not any of the blood was spilling out of the
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when the car was pulled out, there was some. blood in Liz
and Bob's garage.
Q In the condo garage?
A The condo garage, yes.
Q Did you ever make an effort to find the bullet?
A No.
Q Do you recall a discussion between Bob and Scott
about trying to find the bullet?
A Yes, they talked about it.
Q When did that happen?
A In the garage.
Q Were they trying to move, urn, Mr. Perry's body?A They moved
it, yes, but they could not actually move
it 'cause I guess it was stuck in the seat or something.
Q Where were they going to move him to?A The trunk.
Q Did you -- did you touch Phil Perry?A Did I personally touch
him?
Q Yes.A No.
Q Did you touch any of the bags, clothing, or anythinglike
that?
A Yes.
Q Did you help cover him up?
A No.
Q Why would you touch the bags or how did you do that?A It's
when the bags were on the floor of the garage
before they actually, urn, put the last -- the last black
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Q Okay.So the bags were already taken from the trunk and
put on the floor?
A Correct.
Q But you didn't move the bags to the back seat?A No.
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8 Q Who did that?9 A Scott and Bob.
10 Q I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit11
5.
12 Does that look familiar?
13 A That's the condo garage.
14 Q And Exhibit 6?15 A That's inside of the condo garage.
16 Q And this is where Phil Perry's car was parked?17 A That's
correct.
18 Q Did you see blood on the outside of the car?19 A No.
20 Q Did you see blood on the inside of the car?21 A No, not on
the driver's side I didn't.
22 Q Did you ever walk around to the other side of the23 car
where Phil Perry's head was?
24 A No, I didn't, only when the car was pulled out.
25 Q Did you ever ask Scott Harrison where he shot him at26 on
his body?
27 A I don't recall.
28 Q Was there a discussion in the garage as to why Scott
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2 A Scott just said things got out of hand.3 Q So he shot him?4
A Yes.
5 Q Now, at -- somebody must -- did somebody ask Robert6 Minor
to go to Mexico?
7 A The initial -- the initial was -- Liz said that --
8 up in the condo -- Bob, myself and Scott were going to
9 go.
10 Q So she -- was she originally going to go?11 A Yes.
12 Q Did you ever talk to Bob about whether or not he13 wanted
to go to Mexico?
14 A Yes. Bob said he would go.
15 Q Did you have to give Bob anything to go to Mexico?16 A As
far as -- you mean money?
17 Q Money or --18 A No.
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Q -- presents, anything.
A No.
Q Was Bob working at that time?
A No.
Q Did he owe you any money?
A I don't recall him owing me
25 family at the time, so -- I mean, I know I did help them
26 out occasionally with food and tried to help them out
27 with the rent and that sort of stuff.
28 Q Do you recall ever talking to Bob and telling him,
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A No, I don't recall that at all.
Q So how were you going to get down to Mexico?A We were going to
drive.
Q What were you going to drive?A The Jeep.
Q Why the Jeep?A That's the car that Bob and Liz were using.
They
were purchasing that car from me at the time.
Q Were they making payments on it?A No.
Q When you say they were purchasing it, what do youmean by
that?
A They were supposed to -- they wanted me to pay the
payments to the bank, but they were going to make the
payments to me.
Q So they were using the Jeep?A Yes.
Q Now, there was, urn, some information about a letterthat was
written regarding the Jeep and that purchase.
Do you recall that?
A Correct.
Q I'm going to show you what's been marked as 57. Didyour mother
write this note? I'm going to show it to
you.
A Yes.
MR. BOYCE: Objection. Leading.
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back -- I don't know I think it was a hundred bucks?
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It's overruled.
I'm going to show it to you.
It's foundational.
Sorry. Withdrawn.
Yes.
Did you ask your mother to write
Q (BY MS. KERSEY)THE COURT:
MR. BOYCE:
THE WITNESS:
Q (BY MS. KERSEY)that?
A No.
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10 A Robert -- Robert asked her to write it because he
11 didn't know how to put it in words 'cause we were trying
12 to get the insurance transferred over to his name
13 because they would not insure the Jeep with Bob anymore
14 since Bob was driving it.
15 Q Did you know where this note was stored after it was16
written?
17 A No, I didn't.
18 Q Now, the note was specific as to the date of April19
14th.
20 Do you recall reading that?
21 A Yes, I saw the April 14th.
22 Q Do you know if it was written on April 14th?23 A I don't
recall.
24 Q Now, were you I guess I'll just ask it this way:25 Was the
purpose of that note, written by your mother, to
26 put the Jeep in Robert's possession for April 14th?
27 MR. BOYCE: Objection. Leading and calls for28 speculation as
to what Nina Brambila intended.
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to write it, and
that's your
THE COURT: Sustained.
MS~ KERSEY: I could rephrase it.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Did you tell Ninamother -- to write that
letter for that specific date?
A No.
Q Did you direct Nina at all to write that note?A No.
Q Did you even know about it?A Yes, I did.
Q How did you know about it?A Because I asked Robert to get
Robert asked my mother to write it.
Q About what time would you say you were at the condoafter
breakfast?
A In the morning. I don't know what exact time.
Q How long, if you recall, were you at the condo withScott and
Bob and Liz?
A Maybe 45 minutes to an hour.
Q Did -- were you ever -- were you ever threatened inany way to
go to Mexico?
A Yes.
Q Who threatened you?A Mr. Harrison.
Q In what way?A He said I had to go.
Q Anything else?A He said if I didn't go, he was going to hurt
Elise,
which was my stepdaughter.
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Q Did he say anything to Robert about going to Mexico?A Yes.
Q What did he say to Robert?A The same thing, that he had to go
to Mexico.
Q Did you say no?A No. Would you say no after you see a dead
body in
the garage?
Q What about Robert? Did he say no?A No.
Q So at that point Harrison's going to drive theChrysler?
A Correct.
Q And you have the Jeep or Robert has the Jeep?A Robert has the
Jeep.
Q So how do you leave the condo? Which direction doyou go?
A I went and took the Mercedes down to the office,
which is down the street on Archibald and Arrow.
Q Did they go with you?A Yeah.
Q What happened at the office?A I -- we all went in the office.
I went inside. I
think I made a couple calls or something or checked
something, then we left. I left the car there.
Q Now, was there -- were there any letters written toFather John
and Mrs. Perry?
A Yes, there was.
Q When were those written?
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A I don't recall when those were written, but I mailed
them.
Q Was it after the murder or before?A I think the -- I don't
know when the actual letters
were written.
Q Were they written in preparation of this event?A No. I think
it was afterward. It was to try to
cover it up.
Q So who wrote the letters?A Scott wrote them.
Q Where did he write them?A At the office.
Q So did he write them at the office after you leftthe
condo?
A Yes.
Q Were you there?MR. BOYCE: Objection. Leading.THE COURT:
Sustained.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) When were the letters written?A At the
office.
Q When?
A After the murder.
Q So was that -- you mean - - did you go from - -
MR. BOYCE: Objection. Leading.THE COURT: Rephrase.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Did you go from the condo to theoffice
directly?
A Yes.
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MR. BOYCE: Objection.THE COURT: Overruled. It's
foundational.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) How long were you at the office?A Probably
about 45 minutes.
MR. BOYCE: Objection. Asked and answered.THE COURT:
Sustained.
Q (BY MS. KERSEY) Who all went to the office?A Me, Bob and
Scott.
Q And that's when you dropped your Mercedes off?A Uh-huh.
Q Is that "yes"?A Yes.
Q You said these letters were written for whatpurpose?
A To cover it up, his disappearance.
Q Looking at Exhibit 16, does that look familiar toyou?
A Yes.
Q Why is it familiar?A 'Cause it's the letter that was written
to Tina.
Q And Exhibit 44, does that look familiar to you?A Yes.
Q Why is it familiar?A That's the letter that was written to
John
Fahnestock.
Q Now, I notice that they're both dated April 2nd,, 92 .
Who dated those?
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A I don't recall.
Q I mean, who -- somebody had to type them. Who typedthem?
A Scott typed them on Lisa's memory typewriter at the
office.
Q What were you doing while he was typing them?
A I was in my office.
Q Whose idea was it to write the letters?
A I don't remember who -- what was the reason. I know
it was to cover up his disappearance.
Q So once the letters are written, did you read them?A Yes, I
read them.
Q So Scott Harrison types them, you read them, thenwhat
happens?
A They were left at the office.
Q Now, who wrote who signed it on 16 and 44?A I don't know who
signed them. I don't remember.
Q So they were left at your office?A Yes.
Q Now, when you -- when you left -- well, let me get
another exhibit.
When they were left at the office, were they put
in envelopes?
A Yes.
Q I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit16, which
contains two envelopes.
Do these look familiar?
A Yes.
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Q What are those?A Envelopes addressed to Tina Perry and St.
Joseph's
Church.
Q Who typed up the envelopes?A Scott.
Q Scott Harrison?A Yes.
Q The letters were placed inside the envelopes?A Correct.
Q Did you place them in the envelopes?A Yes. And I mailed
them.
Q When you say you mailed them, do you mean youphysically put
them in a mailbox?
A When we got back, yes.
Q Okay.So it wasn't, like, left for the mailman to come
by the business?
A No, it was a physical mailbox that was on the street
corner of Archibald, right outside the office complex.
Q Did you lick the stamps for those two envelopes?A Yes.
Q Do you know who licked the envelopes?A I don't -- I think I
did.
Q Do you remember licking the stamps --
A Yes.
Q -- and physically putting them in a mailbox?A And putting them
in the mailbox.
Q But you didn't mail them until after you came back
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cars"?
A It would be Phil's car, the Chrysler, and the white
Jeep.
Q Who was driving the Jeep?A I believe it was Robert.
the cars up and the cars got washed -- well, Phil's car
got washed.
Q Was that on Haven Avenue in Rancho?A I believe so, yes.
Q So both cars were gassed up?A Yes.
Q When we're talking about both cars, what is "both
from Mexico?
A Correct.
Q Was it the same day?A Yes.
Q Now, after -- you said that you were at the businessfor about
45 minutes?
A Correct.
Q Did Scott and Robert stay the entire time at thebusiness?
A Y
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