D&G Study Gathering

North West Castle Hotel, Stranraer

5 November 2016

Audio Clip Transcriptions

European Ethnological Research Centre (EERC)

Website: http://edin.ac/1rhbcudThe EERC is an independent research body within Celtic & Scottish Studies at the University of Edinburgh. Our primary concern is the promotion of research into Scottish life and society and the publication of results of that research for educational and general purposes

Ethnological methods of research are encouraged across a broad range of subjects, both traditional and contemporary, and across all levels of society. The whole framework of society is taken into account. Scotland is looked at in its European context, and this perspective is reflected in the publications of the EERC.

The publications of the EERC include:

Scottish Life and Society: A Compendium of Scottish ethnologyThis major project comprises fourteen thematically arranged volumes.

Review of Scottish CultureThe Review of Scottish Culture (ROSC) is a publication of the European Ethnological Research Centre (EERC), an independent research body within Celtic and Scottish Studies, University of Edinburgh.

FlashbacksThese volumes provide a highly detailed and personal account of the lived experience across Scotland. The everyday events which, because of their very commonplace, are so often overlooked and are yet so valuable to the student of the past, are brought to the fore in these volumes.

Sources in Local HistoryThe Sources in Local History series is concerned with manuscript sources, especially the diaries and account books of farm folk and tradesmen.

Details on how and where to purchase our publications are on our website.

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Dumfries and Galloway: A Regional EthnologyWebsite: http://www.dumfriesandgalloway.hss.ed.ac.uk/This innovative study aims to explore the everyday lives and culture of the people of Dumfries and Galloway, past and present.

An important and exciting aspect of this study is the collection of primary source material.

This is being achieved by:

recording the spoken memories of people transcribing and contextualising historical documents, including diaries,

account books and memoirs

Written work on topics relevant to the ethnology of the region is also being encouraged. This will result in a range of scholarly publications, from journal articles to books. Altogether, these publications will provide an engaging and lucid account of life in Dumfries and Galloway through time.

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Julia Muir Watt

Andrew McNeilie

There’s a letter he wrote to somebody, was it Jean McShane or somebody, that’s been discovered

where he talks about the speed with which we drive through a place. So we drive through Barrachan

which people once idled through with a horse and cart, going to get peat or something, and the

difference was massive for him in that sense and I think that he knew that speed and movement to

which we’re all attracted reduces the possibilities for attention, for seeing, and that’s the thing, if

you have to do the things by foot or by horseback or horse-drawn-ness you go at a pace where you

actually see things, you dwell more, time passes more slowly and I still think, I’m sure that’s what he

was on about, that speed was something that drastically changed the nature of being and not for the

good in the sense of being and dwelling in the Heideggerian sense of knowing a place, I think he… or

a (Thoreauian) one, I think he knew that, I think that mattered to him and that’s how he could spend

so many hours fishing in the wildest places. ... but that to him was a kind of gravitational settling of

himself, again, and he knew that you just endure and the more you endure the more you register,

the more attention you pay, inadvertently, to where you are and I think his writings show that

inadvertently he showed extraordinary attention.

Alastair Reid #1

And that thing about money, for instance, I remember the first time I became conscious of money

was when we…when I went to Whithorn School and we had a lesson in money and I came home and

I told my parents ‘We’ve had this exciting…do you know about money?’ And they looked…and I

remember going to my father once and saying to my father ‘What is a pound? We hear about a

pound in school and it’s twenty shillings and all the rest of it, but I’ve never seen a pound. What is a

pound?’ and he went to his library then, took down an ‘Everyman’ book, I remember it well, and he

opened it and he had a crisp pound note in it and he showed me the pound note and I looked at it

on both sides, and then he brought me a pencil and paper and I drew the pound and the figures in it

and so on where it said ‘a pound’ and when I…and then I turned it over and drew the back and gave

it back to him and he took it carefully and put it back in the book and back on the shelf.

And I remember that my father never carried money and I think that what happened was we would

have an account with Denton’s, the bakers, and the Martins and the butcher and grocer and he

would go to the bank and take out enough money once a month and pay the…my mother used to

say to me, 'Go down to Denton’s and ask them for a pan loaf' and I would go and I’d say ‘My mother

wants a pan loaf’ and he’d say ‘Oh yes’, and he’d wrap it up and gave it to me and I took it home.

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And I thought that’s how things worked and so on. …imagine a town like this functioning on just

trust like that. And that was a common currency then. It was very much a kind of a communal self-

help in a sense and it ran like that on what we might call civic trust now and to me the great

difference between then and now is the fact that there was no domestic technology to speak of.

The asset really was other people. And people helped one another and it survived like that, as

indeed an agricultural community functions best in a…in conditions like that...

Alastair Reid #2

Well, then we were only three children in the Manse, I was the third in our family and I always

remember when we were, I think we had to take…we had to do church every third Sunday or

something like that. We were given our pennies to put in the collection, which was the first time I

had ever handled money in my life, and the extraordinary memory I have is about money in

particular. My father never carried money and I remember that we had an account at the big

Denton’s, the bakers on the corner, and Charlie Coid in the butcher’s shop which had the first

elegant façade when he put these tiles above it.

Robin Kinnear

Business thrived and being the old agricultural structure with a hiring fair in May and November

people were paid then so their accounts were rendered six monthly, which would be rather

awkward to try and do business in this present day, but this is the way that it worked and they would

come and they would buy six months’ drapery and pay for it six months later. In 1908 my

grandfather tried to lease a shop in Garlieston, but he eventually managed to lease it in 1935 but he

was obviously keen to expand and he did travel but with pony and trap and they used to go out…a

gentleman in 1908 joined the staff, by the name of Johnny Bell, and he was really like a minstrel, he

would go round and they had to travel fair distances with this pony and trap and he would stay the

night at the farthest point and would entertain people who were looking after him with his fiddle

and had a great musical evening and they looked forward to him coming every few months and a

whole day’s journey was from Port William to Kirkinner and perhaps round by Garlieston, and not

getting back until maybe ten o’ clock at night and counting the money, which was just in coin, more

or less, a big day would be maybe six pounds or seven pounds. In 1937 we purchased a shop in

Whithorn and then later, in the ‘50s, we bought a furniture showroom in Whithorn which my father

tended to favour, he was very much into the sale of furniture especially with term customers moving

some distance away, perhaps to Kirkcudbrightshire and we would follow up with our vans with

samples of drapery and settle their accounts, as I said, every six months. Now, once we got into the

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‘50s, when I joined the staff, we managed to reduce the credit terms to three months and normal…

that was the only reason we had to be three months was that was the circuit, that you could only get

round them every three months. We had so many customers from Ayrshire to Kirkcudbrightshire,

Dumfriesshire, right round to the Mull of Galloway so we had a big area to cover and we had, at one

time we had three vans, three travellers going out.

Jessie McLean #1

Mary: Ma granda died when my granny was left wi what, a lot, ma Auntie Mamie was only six weeks

old.

JMcL: Aicht o us, at the school.

JMW: Eight.

Mary: An ma Aunty Mamie wis only six weeks auld jist when ma granda died.

JMW: Right.

Mary: And ma granny carried on the hawkin. And every yin o her brothers and sisters, as they

reached the age, had tae tak their turn, the sisters in the hoose an the brothers in the cairt an ma m

other…some o the sisters hawked an some didnae but she could hawk.

JMcL: Ma sisters, they got away fae that, they didnae dae it.

Mary: But they had tae take their turn in the hoose when ma granny was on the cairt.

JMcL: Aye, tae watch the wee weans.

JMW: Right.

Mary: They’d left the school.

JMW: And did she have a shop or was it-?

JMcL: Yes, we hard wur shop but we didnae sell oot o oor shop, because we were aye oot wi the

cart sellin the dishes and gatherin the skins and rags.

JMW: Right, so tell me again about getting the skins in the morning.

JMcL: In the morning ah got up early, before I went tae school, and knocked at the door jist asked

had they any rabbit skins for sale and ye always got rabbit skins, they always kept the skins for us.

Sometimes they had half a dozen skins and that’s what they were, a penny each, and the hares were

two pence.

JMW: And how old were you when you were doing that?

JMcL: Well, ah widnae be very old because I wasnae a good clever lass so ah had tae be old enough

to ken ma money, what tae pay the skins, so I would say ah’d be ten or eleven wouldn’t ah? For I

was able to pay them for their skins and look after ma money.

JMW: So how did you carry the skins?

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JMcL: Over ma…ah strung them through a string and ah hung them roon ma neck an ower ma back.

Roon ma neck and doon ma back and ah was loaded wi skins. In the winter time ah was loaded and

hoo ah managed [?] hame and ah [?] if it was rainin and then the whole of the summer holidays ah

went wi ma mother wi the cart, there was no cars then, tae gaun tae the hooses for skins.

JMW: And what did you do with them afterwards?

JMcL: We sent them away, we packed them aw, strung them aw up and we sent them aw on the

station wagon tae Glasgow.

JMW: And then they were used for clothing or-?

JMcL: Or whatever they were used for and we made a lot of wur skins. We made a lot of money.

JMW: Yes, and did your mother give you some money for doing it?

JMcL: No ah never took the money, I couldnae get enough for ma mother for there was nae money

but what she made which wisnae like nooadays.

JMW: There were no benefits?

JMcL: No benefits then. And ma eldest sisters were aye workin whenever they were age tae an aw

had guid jobs, they were aw guid bakers, guid cooks an they were aw lucky tae get guid jobs.

Jessie McLean #2

JMW: So how many horses did you have at any one time?

JMW: Two.

JMcL: Ye jist had two.

JMW: Was it two on the cart or just one on the cart?

JMcL: We had the two aye. We had this black yin for donkey’s years, tae ma father died and then

we had tae get it shot. No wurselves, it wouldnae let oorselves ourselves work it, ony oh ma

brothers harnessed him or ocht he’ have jist killed them. We had tae get it shot. An ma faither

hadnea tae yaise a whup he just had tae ‘Go, on Darkie’ that’s awa he had tae say. He never had tae

yaise a whup or a stick. And ah can mind o this [?] there was a big tall [ ? ] ah was standin the day

they were takin, whaur ma dad had died and they couldnae tak the horse by the windae, couldne go

by the windae in the room where ma dad was lying in and they had tae turn the horse an tak it and

pit it back in the stable, wouldnae gaun by the windae. Ah can mind o us aw greetin, that day an ma

saying ‘Oh pit Darkie back in the stable’.

Mary: Tell Julie aboot when the hawkers used tae come tae the heid o the toon wi their horses, tae

sell horses and swap horses and buy horses and dogs.

JMcL: Aye.

Mary: And youse tae tae gaun doon tae Maxwell’s field at the heid o the toon.

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JMcL: And ma dad used tae tak oor horse and race ony horse…it beat every horse it raced and some

o us would run and tell ma ma ‘Ma, come quick, ma da’s took Darkie off tae race such an a horse. An

ma mither jist flew up the street an she would hit ma da and haen a fight. ‘You’re no racin a horse,

Darkie, agin that horse’ an Darkie won the money an ah can mind o that as a-. Mony’s the time ah

run doon masel tae tell her tae ‘come on quick,’ ma da was racing Darkie an ma ma says ‘No he’s no

racin the horse’ an she would run. Oh bit she couldnae dae ocht, if ma da decided he was racing the

horse, he raced the horse, an ah can mind o that fine.

Great Hawthorn

GH: We thinned turnips, what was it? Nine pence for a hundred yards or something? They were a

big hundred yards I can tell ye and nae wunner ma knees are bad, ye went on a stone and ye went

the wrong wiy. Well, it wis yer pocket money. And then we gathered brambles and brought them

intae Davie Doughty, I think it was sixpence or something you got for them, for a pound or

something. But that was a lot o’ money and then we went for snowdrops in the winter time and we

put them in a wee shoe box and ye maybe got a cheque back for ten shillings, that was a lot o’

money.

JMW: And they went off by train?

GH: Train, they went in the train down tae London. And ye could put them on the train at night and

they would be there in the morning. We used to gather them so that they were fresh and oh, they

had to be perfect. And ye had tae put tissue paper in between them, damp, so that it would keep

them fresh an a’ the rest o’ it.

Jenny Jolly

JJ: And he used tae chap my front door, what a rattle wi the stick, he never come up the steps he jist

banged it wi the stick for tatties, cooked tatties, and then he went doon and fried them or something

wi them.

JMW: And he just assumed that you had to do that or did you, did he pay you?

JJ: No, he didnae pay me, he jist thought…he was the auld uncle, he just thought he had a right tae…

it was aye me he come chapping

Betty Stuart

BS: ‘Here dochter, come awa in’ she says ‘Ah’ve a bowl of soup ready for ye, yer ma’s awa tae the

steam mill so come in and get a bowl o soup’.(Laughter) They were the kind o folk they were. They

were different, actually so different tae what the folk are now…they were different…there’s no sae

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much carrying on and things and ye had tae mind yer Ps and Qs, if ye ken what ah mean, and did

anything wrang.

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Robert McQuistan

Early education – the Primary School years

RM: What schuil did ye gang tae then? Well ye widane gaun tae schuil at three.

RN: Naw, well, ah went at fower.

RM: Oh, fower?

RN: Ah went in at fower.

RM: Aye.

RN: Cause ah wis born in December an they used tae tack them in at the back-end then.

RM: Aye.

RN: Then they took them in at every holiday, an ah went in at fower. An ah mind o sittin in, it was

jist yin big room an aw the weans, aw the weans were in this big room, ah wis sitting there an you

got the rods for countin. An ah got sat aside ma brither an ah aye mind o this, the number ten rod

was orange, ah aye mind o that, ah aye mind cause that wis the first yin she put doon for me, and

she ‘Ten’ and then ah wis tae work it oot, ken, an ye went doon…

RM: Aye, aye.

RN: …tae the last yin an ye’d just yin wee cube.

RM: Aye, aye.

RN: An she sat me aside ma brither an ah mind yin o the lassies says to ma other brither, Jim, she

says tae him ‘Is that yer sister?’ He says ‘Aye’, an he was fair prood o me and she says tae im, ah

don’t think much o er, she says ‘She’s no very big’ [laughter]. Ah was too wee, ah was too wee for

them, ah was a wee tottie hing.

RM: Is that the Cuisenaire rods, is that what ye ca’ed them? De ye ken what they ca’ed them?

RN: Nae idea what they were ca’ed.

RM: They’re fancy wee coloured things, and then they got lower and lower doon.

RN: Aye, that’s richt, aye.

RM: Did that learn ye to coont or no?

RN: Aye.

RM: Did it?

RN: Aye.

RM: Did it work?

RN: No [laughter]. It did for a while.

Happy days!

RM: Did ye like the schuil then?

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RN: Oh, aye.

RM: Aye, guid?

RN: Aye, aw, an we used to gaun up, there was a wee bit at the back, the rocks and bracken an that,

an we used to go up and play hooses in it.

RM: Aye.

RN: An ye would make wee dens oot the brackens, then and ye’d gaun in there and aye. Hotbeds,

we played hotbeds and played…

RM: What’s that? Hotbeds?

RN: Ye’d, it’s yer, get yer squares aw marked oot wi yer chalk.

RM: Hopscotch.

RN: Well, we caed it hotbeds.

RM: A right.

RN: That’s, ah’ve heard it ca’ed hopscotch.

RM: Aye.

RN: Nut, nut, nut it was hotbeds.

RM: Hotbeds, aye right then.

RN: An ye got a peevie, that was a wee flat stane…

RM: Wee stane, aye.

RN: …an we’d gaun doon the shore and we would hunt for yin that was…

RM: Oh, ye’d plenty doon there.

RN:…that wis jist richt. And I, A kept this yin for lang enough because A wis aye winnin wi it and ye

would, ye would throw it up on the board an then ye would jump, hop, and ye would pick it up and

go on and come back and then ye’d try the next number up, ken, an on ye went an, aye, A wis guid

at that for lang enough.

RM: An ye’d get yaised tae the wecht o the stane?

RN: Aye. An ye could judge, could judge bi the wecht o it, an the feel o it, jist who far tae throw it an

try land.

RM: A bit like a curlin stane, ye get yaist tae yer ain curlin stane. Aye or boolin.

RN: An if it landed on a line, no, no, that wisane guid, no.

RM: Ye’d [?] the game.

RN: Ye’d pit it in. An marbles, that wis the other thing, played wi them, and ye’d get yer ain wee bag

and aw, ye went wi yer merbles and ye’d chuck them high, we played that tae.

RM: Hoo many weans were at the schuil?

RN: There wisnae a lot, A think fourteen when A stertit.

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RM: A, it was quite wee.

RN: An there was six, six when we left. It was shut doon in nineteen, oh, now, A wis six…

RM: Sixty-seeven, sixty-six?

RN: …sixty-three.

RM: Oh as early as that?

RN: Aye, cause A wis six. And there was only six o us and three o us were Nichols.

RM: Mm.

RN: An we were the last yins at that schuil.

RM: So then ye moved tae the primary schuil at Creetown.

RN: Aye, an were taught there, now, A think it was new built in 1963, ah’m quite shair it was. cause

it was gey new when we went intae it.

RM: Aye.

The school closes

RM: Ye stayed at Carsluith Primary till…?

RN: We left, now A would still be in maybe primary yin or twa...

RM: Aye.

RN: …when A left, Carsluith.

RM: An then Creetown.

RN: At Creetown, A wid gaun intae primary three.

RM: An ye stay there till, well ye wid gaun, ye went tae secondary at Creetown.

RN: A went tae secondary, A left Creetown an it was Mr Cutland.

RM: At Creetown.

RN: At Creetown.

“That wis the learnin oot the windae”

RM: You enjoyed schuil?

RN: A, aye, aye A did. A loved the schuil.

RM: Would ye say you were a bright lassie?

RN: A wis aye clever at ma grammar an ma English and ma composition. An was aye artistic, loved

art, absolutely loved art, aw that kinna stuff an history an A used tae like, we used tae dae models

oot the paper-mache, ken, o the stone age an aw this kinna thing. Fascinating, ken, when a wis a

wean A wis, A wanted tae ken mair.

RM: You like history didn’t ye?

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RN: Aye, A aye wanted tae ken mair, keen tae find oor mair an what it wis aw aboot, an, aye.

RM: So, A can see a lassie there that’s gonna dae great things in the secondary schuil.

RN: No [laughs] didnae work oot that wey, that was the plan A wantit because A kent, Mrs Jarvis

yince said tae me that A should write a book, she said that tae me in primary three because A always

wrote reams and reams for composition, ye had tae dae compositions in thae days. Ye got yer

subject an ye were asked tae write aboot it, well A didnae, A wis never strugglin tae right, ken. A aye

kent what A wid write an it was aye aboot three pages in the jotter, it was aye [?].

RM: De ye still have them?

RN: No.

RM: They’ve disappeared?

RN: Ah’ve nae idea whaur they are noo. An A wish A had cause A kept aw my weans’ an A wish A

had. But A went tae secondary schuil, an lookin forrit tae it, A really was. An A got there an it was

totally new because ye’re comin fae a wee village schuil an ye’re gaun tae this big schuil an…

RM: On the bus.

RN: …on the bus an ye’re put in wi weans fae likes o Kirkcowan, ken, an aw roon aboot, miles roon

aboot, so dependin on how clever ye were depended on what class ye ended up in. So up we gauns

into registration class, now there must hae been thirty, maybe thirty-four weans, in thae days, ye’d

get in a class. There wis a lot o weans an this man’s daen the register, the teacher, an he’s gaun

doon aw the names, aw ‘Yes sir, yes sir, yes sir’ get’s tae ma name, Roma Nichol, stands up, haun up

and he says ma name ‘Roma Nichol?’, ‘Yes sir’, ‘Oh you’ll be Jim and Vinny Nichol’s sister?’ And of

course ah’m thinkin ‘Oh, he kens me.’ Ken, ‘Oh’, A wis quite, A says ‘Yes sir’ and bi this time ah’d pit

a wee smile on ma face, ‘Oh this teacher kens whae A am.’ He says ‘Right, out you come’. Right, so

awa A goes an stands oot an he got the belt oot his pocket and he gave me six o the belt an he says

‘That’s’ he says ‘That’ll save me fae beltin ye mair’ and it was simply because A was Jim and Vinny

Nichol’s sister and they were a wee bit mischievous at the schuil. And since, since that day, first day

at secondary schuil, nut, that was it. Wasnae interested, wasn’t interested, just thought ‘If this is

what it’s aw aboot, don’t think A want tae gaun here’ and that was it.

RM: Ye can hardly believe that, can ye?

RN: Aye that was it. An A was so numb aboot it, ken, an A couldnae, A mean ye couldnae gaun

hame an say tae yer mither, when ye got hame, an she says ‘Oh, how wis yer first day at schuil?’

ye’re no gonnae turn roond an tell her ye got six o the belt. Ye ken? An it wis jist ‘Oh it was fine’ but

fae that day on, nut, doon hill, doon hill.

RM: An ye can understand that.

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RN: An the majority o the teachers at the Ewart in they days were men an A mean A wid gaun in an

A just couldn’t wait tae get back oot. Couldnae wait till the bell rung, quarter tae fower, awa hame,

ken.

RM: Ye would have quite enjoyed daen the history and English…

RN: A loved it.

RM: …if ye’d just no had that.

RN: Aye, that experience from the very first day, very first day.

RM: It just soured ye.

RN: Aye, but that, och A mean ah’m no so sayin that’s what went on but aye, well the ‘tawse’, we

caed it ‘the tawse’ an ‘the tawse’ was an awfae schuil an A don’t know if that things like that

happened elsewhere or no, A jist assumed it did because A wis jist a wean. Let’s face it A wis only

twelve year auld, ken, an A thought at the time that’s what happens. Ken, that must be just the wey

it is, if your brithers are a wee bit mischievous or whatever, you’re gonnae be treated like this

because o that, ken, so.

RM: But ye must still be daen quite weel in yer classes, were ye, efter that, or did ye jist no bother

wi your work?

RN: The likes of cookery, where we had women teachers, if ye like, A mean, aye, loved it, absolutely

loved it, it was home eccie, home economics, an A was really guid at that. History we had a fella for

a teacher an A was interested in that up to a point but by the time it got closer an closer an closer to

me leaving it jist diminished, as it went, A jist couldnae wait.

RM: Couldnae wait tae get oot.

RN: Nut, couldnae wait

RM: If ye could wind the clock back-.

RN: If A could, well gein the same circumstances A don’t know if it would be hae been more

different to be honest.

RM: If ye had changed the circumstances.

RN: Aye, A would hae stuck in, A really would. A wid hae stuck in because, and tae this day, A mean

tae this day books an learning and finding things oot, ken.

RM: In yer nature.

RN: Aye, it aye has been, ken.

RM: Now ye came back tae it.

RN: Aye.

RM: Cause ye left an what did ye dae when ye left schuil?

RN: A went straicht intae the Cree mills up in Newton.

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RM: At Newton.

RN: A went in there as a machinist but that tied in wi ma Ma gaun intae the hospital an A mair or

less had tae get the money intae the hoose, if ye like, cause she wis laid off her work tae, so in wey it

was helpful to her. It wasnae helpful to me, in the sense that A left the schuil an that was it, too late

tae gaun back, ken, that was it, tae tack it ony further so A ended up in the Cree Mills, up in Newton

an A was only there maybe a couple o year an then A got marriet and that was the learnin oot the

windae, for oh.

“Afore A kent whaur A wis A wis mairit.”

RN. Before A kent whaur A wis A was marriet.

RM: What age would you be aboot then?

RN: Sixteen.

RM: Oh ye were gey young.

RN: Sixteen, but A mean there were lassies ma age getting marriet in they days at that cause that’s

how it was.

RM: Aye.

RN: Ken, if ye were by twenty-yin there was something wrang wi ye [laughs].

RM: They werenae gaun tae college or university, for that.

RN: No.

RM: They werenae whay ye cry a higher education, they were getting marriet, an that was the safest

in ways.

RN: Because, A mean, when we were growin up I don’t think A kent onybody that went to

university, or even a college.

A nudge forward

RN: But then A went an A did ma caterin but it was when A was at nursery, takin the weans doon yin

day an the nursery teacher an, this is gaun back tae where A was, Mrs Bunting had said tae me ‘Wid

ye no be interested in nursery nursing?’ An ah’d spoke to her a bit aboot it and she’d gein me aw

stuff, aw the bumf an everything aboot it an a read it aw and thought ‘Aye, I wid be interested in

that’ an then a thocht ‘Well, wait a minute, it’s twa year’ ken, ah’m sayin tae masel ‘No A cannae

handle twa year, A need to work’. But as it turned oot A did twa year in the caterin.

Education, education, education!

RM: The weans would be quite young.

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RN: Aye.

RM: They were wee weans weren’t they?

RN: Aye, they were.

RM: And so did ye hae tae hae a childminder or something?

RN: Well, that’s the difference between me an ma mither, ma mither didnae have that help whereas

A did, but A had tae pey for it, ken, ye didnae get the help wi the childcare that ye got…

RM: Ye get noo.

RN: …slightly later than that. So when A feenished up ma caterin, A did twa year in caterin an as it

turned oot an ended up bein student o the year, runner-up the first year, student o the year, the

second year and Costley and Price wanted me tae gaun an work in Symington in the Wheatsheaf Inn.

And A couldnae cause the buses fae where A was stayin didnae gaun on ma route.

RM: That’s a shame cause that would be a guid-.

RM: That’s a shame cause that would be a guid-.

RN: Didnae have a car, couldnae afford a car, so A ended up, but as it turned oot, schuil meals and it

gein me the holidays wi the weans.

RM: Aye.

RN: An then the guid thing that came oot o that, when A wis daen the schuil dinners, ye wid be

talkin tae the weans when they came up for their dinner an A aye had this great interaction wi the

weans and A would aye be ‘Hello an how are ye the day?’ an the wey A see life is if you can put a

wee smile on a wee yin’s face, send them awa happy, ye’ve done something…

RM: Aye.

RN: …you’ve done something positive for that we yin. So, again, it was yin o the teachers at this

schuil had said to me ‘You’re in the wrang job’ she says ‘You should gaun in for nursing or, she says

‘even teaching.’ She says ‘You’re in the wrang job stuck in the kitchen’. An she says ‘Think aboot it’

and A did, an it was efter the schuil holidays, A applied tae gaun tae the nursery nursing an A din it

and when ah’d feenished it yin o ma lecturers had said tae me ‘Don’t bother gaun oot daen nursery

nursing the noo, gaun an see aboot daen yer B.A. in Childhood Studies and that’s what A din.

A dream fulfilled

RM: What did the weans think o this, their mother gaun tae university? Were they happy wi it?

RN: Well, aye, they were.

RM: Right.

RN: A think they were, because A think they could see the struggle at times, ken, A think they could

see the struggle because, an that wis the other thing that cam along, that we never grew up wi, wis

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aw that designer label. When my yins went tae secondary schuil it was ‘Oh, my freend’s got this an

my freend’s got that. Can A no get this an can A no get that?’ A says ‘If you want that, you go oot

and you work for it. A says ‘Ah cannae get it.’ A says ‘Ninety pound pair o trainers, nae wey ah’m

getting that.’

RM: No.

RN: An then, so they did, aw credit to them, aw went along an got weekend jobs, saved up and got

[/].

RM: Aye. Good.

RN: So they did.

RM: That was a guid lesson, eh?

RN: It did, it jist instilled it intae their heid that if you want it, you work for it.

RM: Work for it. Aye, aye, aye.

RN: An that was it.

RM: So then you got your B.A. in Childhood Studies.

RN: Aye, A got that.

RM: So what did ye dae wi that?

RN: Went awa in, had a wee nursery in Arran, A uprooted it, went tae Arran, two year an A was the

manager in a wee playgroup, nursery ower there.

A hunger for knowledge

RM: If ye could wave a magic wand what job would ye dae?

RN: Oh, A wid dae teaching, A really would, aye.

RM: Primary?

RN: Aye, A really would. That side.

RM: An the nearest ye could get tae that would be maybe be classroom, an ah’m no saying this

because ye’re pbviously perfectly able tae dae it but you’re thinkin ‘Well’ you know, ‘Times change’

an aw the rest o it, but ye could get in as a classroom assistant, certainly, couldn’t ye?

RN: Oh aye, A could get in as that, aye A could.

RM: Nae bother. But ye’re thinkin twice ‘Oh ah’m getting that’ cause yer thinkin twice aboot trainin

at this stage.

RN: Aye. Aye, A feel, but the thing is, A mean, yince yer in that environment it’s like a hunger for

knowledge, isn’t it? Ken, ye jist want tae-.

RM: Ye mean for you?

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RN: Aye, ken, ye jist want tae keep learnin aboot an aw the developments that have, because fae A

left it’s, A mean they’ve moved on leaps and bounds, the curriculum ah’ll have chainged nae end.

RM: You’re smert enough tae pick it up.

RN: Aye, A jist feel as if A should still be gainin aw this knowledge.

Gie me mair!

RM: You’re still thirsty for education, aren’t ye?

RN: Oh aye, right since primary school.

RM: Aye. Wi aw the bumps.

RN: Aye.

RM: Aw the bumps at secondary school and then…

RN: A dae an awfy readin, A really do.

RM: …an gettin married, the weans.

RN: Aye.

RM: An here ye are, ye’ve come oot the other end, ye’re saying ‘Gie me mair’.

RN: Aye, ah’m still. Aye gie me mair.

RM: Are ye gaunnae go an look for mair noo?

RN: Well, see ah’ll gaun through this, ah’ll go through this wee kinna [?] ‘’Aye A will, ah’ll gaun an

dae that’ and then ah’ll think ‘Naw, A cannae, A cannae’, ken.

RM: Well Roma, thanks for your conversation, thanks for your conversation, it was great.

RN: Ye’re welcome.

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Christine Wilson, Eric Wilson, Nancy McLucas, Donnie Nelson and Caroline Milligan

The dangers of poaching

NMcL: Was it not very dangerous?

HR: No it wasnae dangerous. The only danger ever I seen was the chap, I wasn’t there, an…there

was three of them. And they mostly worked about the Inch poachin, but never worked about the

Portpatrick side. And they’d begun to do this set anyway wi the nets, there was three of them. And

they always used to carry this big pin pocket, for your pins for your net, inside there… [close to the

body]. Well, this night this chap, it was a high bank, and he jumped ower, and the pin went right up

through there…[through his neck and the side of his face]. …The pin was all pointed, and it went

right up through his chin. And they had to rush him back to the Garrick Hospital to get the pin taen

oot. ...He survived it, he wis alright, aye. [But] you had to be careful with the pins. You couldnae

[be] jumpin here or jumpin there wi them in your pocket. If they’d gone out through you they could

ave killed you.

NMcL: Where did you get the stuff to poach with? [The nets and the pins.]

HR: We went oot there tae a wee place at Cairnryan, the glen there. It wis hazel pins we used, …you

cut them the length of your arm. [We measured them and cut.] And then after you cut them, we

pointed them. And you always had plenty of pins and then you put them up the side of the chimney

and it hardened them. …And they never broke, these hazel pins. But you always had plenty of pins.

Plenty of pins to put in the nets.

NMcL: So you made your own?

HR: Aye, we made our own, but the nets that we bought came from Kilburnie. …30/- it was then for

a net, a long [rabbit] net.

Portpatrick Shops

NMcL: Did your mother do most of her shopping in Portpatrick?

GMcL: Yes, she did all her shopping in Portpatrick. Maybe once a week, or once a month probably,

she would go into Stranraer by train to do her shopping - on a Saturday.

NMcL: So tell me about the shops in Portpatrick?

Well, there were lots of shops in Portpatrick, if I can just run down the main street for you. At the

top o the street there was Gibb Brothers, the baker’s, that’s just opposite the church. And just

below Gibb Brothers there was Ewan’s the butcher’s. These were both Stranraer shops, branches of

Stranraer shops, and Ewan’s the butcher’s later became Mrs Anderson’s chip shop. There was a chip

shop there then, and next door to that was Irwin, he’d a sort of café and confectioner’s shop. And

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he was a Russian, and he changed his name to Irwin after he came from Russia - probably after the

First World War. He was a great character. Then we had Bob Douglas the grocer below that. Then

we had Dan Campbell’s ice-cream and sweetie shop, Nicholas the greengrocer’s, Davidson’s the

grocers and then we had Dobson’s the chemist. The same Dobson’s as was in Stranraer, another

branch. We had Cathy Brooke’s sweetie shop, we’d Gillespie’s the baker’s - who is still there today -

and below that we had Young’s the grocer’s again. Then we had Phamie Brownlee’s little gifts and

picture postcards. You could buy buckets and spades and little nets for fishin in the pools there, she

was quite a character. Then we had round the Back Street, Mr McConchie’s. He made all his own

sweets, homemade sweets, it was boilings mostly. And you could smell his clove balls an that,

halfway up the village when he was cookin them.

Childhood Illnesses

Of course, by this time there wouldnae be nine, because my eldest sister died at fourteen. Now, that

is quite interesting in a way, because A never knew what she died with. But my elder sister in

Canada said that in those days, you didnae talk about what anybody had. Folk were...families were

very, very close about things. But she imagined, ...she says she was a very active girl, she was a

wonderful horsewoman an everything. And she took ill, and sis says she imagines that she had TB,

but she never was told.

…There was a brother between Willie an I, my father [never] saw him, because he was born when

ma father was away abroad in the War. And ma sister could also tell me this as well. ...He was the

loveliest baby you ever saw, and she was holdin him till ma mother bathed him. She was getting his

bath ready in St John Street. ...But there was four children in St John Street, were all vaccinated the

same day, and they all died in one week. Because A never could understand why A was never

vaccinated, and this was why. Now, nowadays that would have been a right rumpus, wouldn’t

it? ...But nothing was done about it. ...They never questioned. An these four children died all in that

street, in one week.

A glimpse of life at Lochnaw

Of course, that year I started was the year War broke out and within a very, very short space of time

things were changing rapidly. That particular year, their eldest daughter Wendy, Miss Wendy we call

her. They had three of a family, Miss Wendy, Miss Olive and Master Billy. That was the way we

addressed these people. She, Miss Wendy, ran off in July of that year, that would be 1939.

Before the War?

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…the War hadn’t started then. She…had a boyfriend who was a squadron leader at the Freugh, West

Freugh. And he used tae fly over the Castle. You knew, because he used to come down gie low and

it was rumoured that he dropped sweets one time ontae the tennis courts. But I was up and had a

bit look and didn’t find any. But that was one a the rumours anyway.

World War II memories

During the War because we were - there were six children in our family - because we were a big

family we were given an air-raid shelter in the house which was a big metal table which took up a

good bit o the living room. Our ordinary table had to go to my Granny’s who had a big house and this

table had a mesh base… It was all metal except the mesh base and had mesh sides which you put

on. We used to play in it, we used to go in and play in this air-raid shelter but we used it as a table as

well. We had a tablecloth on it and used it as a table. We had it up until the V-bombs in London and

when the V-bombs in London were falling they came and said because we weren't so likely to be

bombed now would we give up this so that they could take it to London and give it to these people

who were likely to be bombed - So they took the table away.

Who were the people who took it away and gave it to you in the first instance?

I can't really remember that, it must have been something to do with the Civil Defence. The whole

thing was taken to bits, the top came off - there were great big bolts on it, I can remember the big

bolts. So that was our air-raid shelter although we had air-raid shelters in the park as well but we

were given this because there were six children in the family. That's why we were given this air-raid

shelter to ourselves. The air-raid shelter was called a Morrison air-raid shelter. Now there were

Anderson air-raid shelters which were outside. …We didn't have any of them

Stuck on the train

On Wednesday, 12th March, 1947, a crowd of young fellas like myself went to Glasgow to a football

match which was the Scottish League versus the English League. After the game we left St Enoch’s

Station at ten past five, and by the time we got to Irvine station there was a little snow on the

platform. By the time we got to Troon, the platform was covered. By the time we got to Prestwick,

the platform was even deeper covered. Time we got to Maybole it was well covered and Barrhill, it

was really bad. Then we stopped at Glenwhilly Station and after we came out of Glenwhilly Station

the train got stuck at the first cutting south of the station. We were in the train from Wednesday

evening until Friday morning. Some of us were in compartments where the weight of the snow

broke the glass and, fortunately, some of us were in compartments where the glass was not broken.

So we all crowded into each other’s compartments, and we were reasonably comfortable. There

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were a number of boxes of Lyons’ cakes which were consigned to West Freugh for the airmen. That

was the only food that was on the train, and we tried to persuade the guard to let us have some

food on the Thursday, because we were all very hungry. But he refused to open the guards’ van to

let us have access to the cakes. However, some of the men got a hold of the guard and went into his

pockets and took the key out and opened the guards’ van and we got in to the cakes, opened up the

boxes, and the cakes were distributed to all the passengers which, I think, was about 140 on the

train. So, all the eight boxes of cakes were devoured. [laughter]

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