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DirectorMarianne Elliott

NT Education National TheatreSouth Bank London SE1 9PX

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Workpack contributors Lyn HaillKate Varney

EditorEmma Gosden

Design Patrick EleyLisa Johnson

Saint Joanby Bernard Shaw

Travelex £10 Tickets

Background pack

Contents

The production and synopsis 2Interview: Anne-Marie Duff (Joan) 7Interview: Marianne Elliott (Director) 9The visual language 11Company interviews:

Paul Ready 13Simon Bubb 14Polly Lister 15

Education

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IN ORDER OF SPEAKING

Robert de Baudricourt BRENDAN O’HEAStewards and Pages LUKE TREADAWAYJoan ANNE-MARIE DUFFBertrand de Poulengey ROSS WAITONDuke de la Tremouille, the Lord Chamberlain

JAMES BARRISCALEThe Archbishop of Rheims JAMES HAYESGilles de Rais (Bluebeard) GARETHKENNERLEYCaptain La Hire FINN CALDWELLCharles, The Dauphin PAUL READYDunois, bastard son of the Duke of OrleansCHRISTOPHER COLQUHOUNRichard, Earl of Warwick ANGUS WRIGHTChaplain de Stogumber MICHAELTHOMASPeter Cauchon, Bishop of BeauvaisPATERSON JOSEPHThe Inquisitor OLIVER FORD DAVIESCanon John D’Estivet WILLIAM OSBORNECanon de Courcelles SIMON BUBBBrother Martin Ladvenu JAMIE BALLARDThe Executioner JONATHAN JAYNESEnsemble MICHAEL CAMP, EKECHUKWU, SIMON MARKEY, DAVIDRICARDO-PEARCE

Understudy to Joan POLLY LISTER

Other parts played by the Company

Music played live by Harvey Brough (Music Director, keyboard,psaltery, voice), Melanie Pappenheim (voice), Belinda Sykes (woodwind, voice), Kelly McClusker (violin, voice), Laura Moody (cello, voice)

Director MARIANNE ELLIOTTDesigner RAE SMITHLighting Designer PAULE CONSTABLEMusic JOCELYN POOKSound Designer PAUL ARDITTIChoreographer HOFESH SHECHTERMusic Director HARVEY BROUGHCompany Voice Work JEANNETTE NELSONTextual Adviser SAMUEL ADAMSONStaff Director KATE VARNEY

Opening of this production: The Olivier Theatre, 11 July 2007

SYNOPSIS

Scene 1: The castle of Vaucouleurs, France,February 1429Captain ROBERT DE BAUDRICOURT isstorming at his STEWARD because there areno eggs and no milk; the Steward claims theyare bewitched, until Robert agrees to see TheMaid who is waiting outside. Robert insists sheshould be sent back to her father in Lorraine,but it seems the girl will not go. “She reallydoesn’t seem to be afraid of anything”. Whenhe reluctantly agrees to talk to her, JOAN tellsRobert that he is to give her a horse, armourand some soldiers: “Those are your ordersfrom my Lord”. Robert is furious – he takesorders only from the king, but Joan says thather Lord is the King of Heaven. She will notneed many soldiers to go to the Dauphin andraise the siege of Orléans, as God as sent herto do, and several of his men, whom she refersto by their nicknames, have agreed to comewith her. Astounded by her recklessimpudence, Robert finds himself agreeing totalk to BERTRAND DE POULENGEY (POLLY),one of the squires she has enlisted. Surelycommonsense dictates that they shouldn’ttake this mad girl seriously. Polly thinks if theyhad any commonsense they would join theDuke of Burgundy and the English king whohold half the country. The Dauphin is trappedin Chinon, and the English will take Orléansunless “the Bastard” (Dunois, illegitimate sonof the Duke of Orléans) can stop them. Pollyclaims that Joan is a bit of a miracle and theyshould risk trusting her. Robert calls the girlback in and questions her about herbackground (she is from Domrémy, thinks sheis 17 years old, and the Saints Catherine andMargaret talk to her every day). He tells herthis is her imagination (“Of course,” shereplies. “That is how the messages of Godcome to us.”) and warns her of the brutality of the English soldiers and their Black Prince.She knows this – the “goddams” came to hervillage – but she pities them and is unafraid.She just wants them to leave France. Robertbegins to see that their troops might bepersuaded by Joan’s passion. He finally agreesto send her and an escort to Chinon. “And Imay have a soldier’s dress?” “Have what youplease. I wash my hands of it.” The Stewardruns in with a basket of eggs. The hens arelaying again. “Christ in heaven!” Robertexclaims. “She did come from God!”

Scene 2: Chinon, in Touraine, March 1429The ARCHBISHOP OF RHEIMS and the LordChamberlain, the DUKE DE LA

The production and synopsis

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TREMOUILLE,wait for The Dauphin whilecomplaining of his extravagance. GILLES DERAIS (known as BLUEBEARD) is announced,with CAPTAIN LA HIRE. CHARLES, THEDAUPHIN, who is derided for not havinginherited the wisdom of his grandfather,Charles the Wise, has a letter from deBaudricourt about Joan’s imminent arrival. “Heis sending a saint, an angel. And she is comingto me: to the king, and not to you, Archbishop.She knows the blood royal if you don’t.” Theydevise a plan for Bluebeard to take theDauphin’s place on the throne to test if Joancan recognise the true blood. The Dauphintaunts Bluebeard with being unable to saveOrléans, for all his bullying, though his lettersays Joan will achieve this. Bluebeard claimsthat if the “brave, handsome, invincibleDunois” can’t raise the siege, it’s unlikely acountry lass can. Dunois and his troops arestuck on the bank of the Loire where theEnglish hold the bridgehead. He’s been waitingfor the wind to change so that he can ship hismen across the river to land upstream at theirrear. The Archbishop thinks Joan will have no trouble picking out the Dauphin as she willknow his reputation as the worst-dressed manat Court. He says this will be no less of amiracle, though: “A miracle, my friend, is anevent which creates faith.” Joan is brought in to the throne room and, as predicted, is notfooled for a moment by the ruse. She tells theDauphin that she is sent to crown him king in the cathedral at Rheims. When she kneels and asks the Archbishop’s blessing, even he ismoved, but tells her she is in love with religion.

She asks to speak to the Dauphin alone. Hetells her he has no wish to lead an army intobattle, and when she urges him to take hisrightful place, says “What is the good of sittingon the throne when the other fellows give allthe orders?” She promises to stay by his sideand teach him to pray, but he reminds her heis not a child but a grown man and a father,though he and his son can’t stand each other.Gradually she encourages his strength ofpurpose. He summons the Court to tell themhe has given Joan command of the army. She cries out “Who is for Orléans with me?”

Scene 3: Orléans, April 1429DUNOIS and his Page watch a kingfisher asthey wait with great impatience for the wind to change. Joan arrives, keen to be on theother side of the river, and promising to relieveDunois of fear. He says he would be a badcommander without fear and explains that theEnglish numbers are far superior. Joan vows tolead their men into battle, though Dunois tellsher none will follow her. Her reply – “I will notlook back to see whether anyone is followingme” – shows him she has the makings of asoldier, but he tells her she is in love with war.She says she is a soldier and does not want to be thought of as a woman. “Women dreamof lovers and of money. I dream of leading acharge.” He says he welcomes her as a saintnot as a daredevil, but she tells him she is aservant of God, her sword is sacred and herheart full of courage. Dunois asks her to prayfor a west wind and offers to take her tochurch but she will not go to church until theEnglish are beaten. She will, however, tell St Catherine to intercede for a west wind.Immediately the Page notices that the windhas changed: the army can cross the river.

The French go into battle with Joan at theirhead.

Scene 4: The English Camp, May 1429Richard, Earl of WARWICK, and the ChaplainDE STOGUMBER discuss the way the war hasbeen going. De Stogumber says the Frenchvictory at Orléans was clearly achieved bysorcery, but since then the English defeatshave gone on and on. He would like to“strangle the accursed witch with my ownhands”. Warwick declares Dunois a tougherproblem. He derides the new fashion of talkingof “the French” and “the English”. “Men

Saint Joan – synopsis

Anne-Marie Duff (Joan)

photo Kevin Cummins

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cannot serve two masters. If this cant ofserving their country takes hold of them,goodbye to the authority of their feudal lords,and goodbye to the authority of the Church.”He promises De Stogumber that they shall“burn the witch and beat the bastard all ingood time.” He plans to offer a king’s ransomfor her. De Stogumber rails against the Jewswho will profit from this, but Warwick says thatJews give good value – “the men who wantsomething for nothing are invariablyChristians.” They are joined by the Bishop ofBeauvais, Monseigneur CAUCHON. Warwickexplains their predicament: the Dauphin is tobe crowned at Rheims, which will make himmore powerful. Warwick wants to sound outCauchon about handing Joan over to theInquisition if she is captured in his diocese. De Stogumber insists that Joan is a witch – at Orléans she was wounded in the throat and yet fought on all day. Cauchon thinks her inspired, “but diabolically inspired.” Hebelieves his first duty is to seek Joan’ssalvation. But if she is an obstinate heretic, theChurch will hand her over to the secular arm.Warwick claims this role for himself. “Handover your dead branch; and I will see that thefire is ready for it.” He silkily keeps the peacebetween de Stogumber (who calls Cauchon atraitor) and the Bishop, believing that “if thiscult of the Maid goes on, our cause is lost.” De Stogumber cannot see how Joan can becondemned when she behaves like a faithfuldaughter of the Church.

Cauchon believes that the letters Joan sendsto the English king, giving God’s commands,

are like those written by “Mahomet, the anti-Christ”, against whom he rails. Warwick saysthat as a pilgrim he saw something of theMahometans. “They were not so ill-bred as Ihad been led to believe.” Cauchon thinks thisshows he has been perverted by infidels, butWarwick hopes they can proceed withoutbigotry. He is not concerned that Joan willbecome another Mahomet, but that she couldwreck the whole structure of Christendom: ifshe gets her way the aristocracy will besuperseded and the king made “sole andabsolute autocrat”, taking the lands they holdand giving them to God. Cauchon realises theywill not defeat the Maid if they are atloggerheads, and proposes they sink theirdifferences in the face of a common enemy.While he is concerned that Joan thinks only of God and herself, not of The Church,Warwick feels she thinks only of the king andherself, not of the peerage. Warwick agrees. “It is the protest of the individual soul againstthe interference of priest or peer between theprivate man and his God. I should call itProtestantism if I had to find a name for it.” DeStogumber, on the other hand, is against Joanbecause she “denies England her legitimateconquests, given her by God because of herpeculiar fitness to rule over less civilised racesfor their own good.” While Cauchon will notimperil his own soul, and Warwick avers he will spare her if he can, de Stogumber wouldhappily burn her with his own hands.

INTERVAL

Scene 5 Cathedral of Rheims, July 1429Dunois tells Joan to cease her prayers – theDauphin has been crowned and the peopleoutside are calling for The Maid. She wishesthey were back at the bridge at Orléans andasks him why everyone at Court hates her,despite all she has done. When she has takenParis, she plans to return to her village. Dunoisthinks they won’t let her take Paris and urgesher to take care. She seeks comfort from hervoices, which she hears in the church bells.The newly crowned Dauphin complains of theweight of the robes and the smell of the oilthat anointed him. When Joan tells him she’sgoing back to her father’s farm he casuallydismisses her, but she asks if she and Dunoiscan take Paris first. She chides the Dauphin forcalling it luck that has got them where they areand urges him not to stop while there are stillEnglishmen in France: “What is your crownworth without your capital?” The Archbishop

Paterson Joseph (Cauchon)

photo Kevin Cummins

Saint Joan – synopsis

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says she is stained with the sin of pride.Dunois says that if they presume further “andtrust to God to do the work we should doourselves, we shall be defeated.” He tells theking that he doesn’t mind his own part in thevictory having been ignored, but he knowsexactly how much God did for them throughJoan, and how much He let them do throughtheir own wits. He warns that if she goes on,she will be taken by the enemy and “the luckyman that makes the capture will receivesixteen thousand pounds from the Earl ofOuareek.” He wonders who will lift a finger tosave her? Joan agrees that she is not worthone soldier’s life if God lets her be beaten butFrance may think her worth the ransom “afterwhat God has done for her through me.” TheDauphin protests that the coronation (all herfault) has cost him every penny he has. Joansuggests the Church would pay. TheArchbishop tells her they will drag her throughthe streets and burn her as a witch. “Youwould not let them burn me.” “How could I prevent them?” Joan realises that she isabsolutely alone; she will go out to the people“and let the love in their eyes comfort me forthe hate in yours.” Only La Hire says he wouldfollow her to hell.

Scene 6: Rouen, 30 May 1431Warwick wants a word with Cauchon beforethe trial begins. Cauchon introduces him toThe INQUISITOR and Canon JOHND’ESTIVET, who is acting as Prosecutor. Sinceit is nine months since Warwick bought Joanfrom the Burgundians in order to bring her tojustice, he would like to know how muchlonger the trial will take. Cauchon says theyhave held 15 examinations of her and theInquisitor, having not at first thought this was acase of heresy, now admits that it is. D’Estivetsays that he would rush to Joan’s defence ifhe weren’t confident that others wereexplaining to her how she can return to thebosom of the Church. Warwick sees her deathas a political necessity; the Church cannot lether go free. The Inquisitor reassures him: Joan,he says, convicts herself every time she opensher mouth. When the court assembles, DeStogumber wishes to make a protest: he andCanon de COURCELLES have drawn up anindictment of 64 counts against Joan, whichthe Inquisitor has reduced to 12, knowing thatif they try her on “trumpery issues” (such asstealing a Bishop’s horse), she may escape the main charge of heresy. Brother MARTINLADVENU thinks her so-called heresy may just

be her simplicity. The Inquisitor speaks of hislong experience of such trials and warns themagainst their natural compassion: “If you hatecruelty, remember that nothing is so cruel in itsconsequences as the toleration of heresy.” He knows the righteousness of his work, its necessity, and its mercy. Cauchon agrees with him and adds that the danger they areconfronting throughout Europe is “this archheresy which the English Commander callsProtestantism.”

Joan is brought in. She has been ill becausesome carp the Bishop sent her has disagreedwith her. Courcelles questions her about herattempts to escape. “If you leave the door ofthe cage open the bird will fly out”. They takethis as a confession of heresy: since she isheld by the Church, to escape is to desert theChurch. Joan says no-one could be such afool as to think that. She says she cannot tellthem the whole truth: “God does not allow thewhole truth to be told.” They threaten her withtorture but Cauchon does not want it said thatthey forced a confession from her. Cauchonasks Joan if she will accept the judgement ofthe Church. She says she will, “provided itdoes not command anything impossible.” Shecannot deny her voices or go back on whatGod has made her do. Though the Inquisitorinsists that her visions are sent by the devil,she says it is God’s commands that shefollows. To the court, one of her greatest sinsis dressing as a man – why should an angelgive her such shameless advice? Shereasonably responds that this wascommonsense: she has been living amongsoldiers and is now guarded by them; if shedresses as a soldier they don’t think of her as a woman. Ladvenu cautions Joan againstpert replies, and introduces her to THEEXECUTIONER. The stake is ready in themarket place, he says, and her death will be a cruel one – there are 800 English soldiersoutside ready to make sure of that. She finallyrealises that she could burn. Cauchon andLadvenu tell her that she can still save herself.Her voices have led her to her execution but“The Church holds out its arms to you.” Joandespairs of her voices. “Only a fool will walkinto a fire: God, who gave me mycommonsense, cannot will me to do that.”Ladvenu rushes to write a confession for her to sign, though de Stogumber protests thatJoan should not be allowed to escape them:“You are all traitors!” Ladvenu reads out theconfession: “I confess to the sin of sedition, to

Synopsis - Saint Joan

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the sin of idolatry, to the sin of disobedience,to the sin of pride, and to the sin of heresy.”The Inquisitor asks if Joan understands and ifthis is true. “If it were not true, the fire wouldnot be ready for me in the market place”. Shesigns, Ladvenu praises God, and the Inquisitordeclares her set free from the danger ofexcommunication. But, so that she can repenther errors in solitary contemplation, she willspend the rest of her life in prison. With thedawning knowledge that she will never be free,Joan snatches up the confession and tears itup. “It is not the bread and water I fear… Butto shut me from the light of the sky and thesight of the fields and flowers…” She cannotlive without these things, and the “blessedblessed church bells that send my angelvoices floating to me on the wind.” She knowsthat “your counsel is of the devil, and thatmine is of God”. Cauchon and the Inquisitorintone the words of the excommunication asde Stogumber and the soldiers hasten her outto the waiting pire, Ladvenu wants to be withher, and the Inquisitor restrains Cauchon fromintervening: “I am accustomed to the fire: it issoon over.” He tells Cauchon that Joan is quiteinnocent and had not understood a word ofthe trial.

De Stogumber returns and asks Warwick topray for his soul “I did not know what I wasdoing… I am in hell for evermore.” Hedescribes how when Joan asked for a cross, asoldier gave her two sticks tied together.“Thank God he was an Englishman!” Ladvenudescribes Joan’s end. “I firmly believe that herSaviour appeared to her… This is not the endfor her, but the beginning.” Warwick asks theExecutioner for assurance that nothingremains. “Her heart would not burn, my lord:but everything that was left is at the bottom ofthe river. You have heard the last of her.”

EpilogueLadvenu describes the nullification trial, 25years later, at which the sentence on Joan wasset aside. The Dauphin tells how he had ledhis army in subsequent battles. “I made a manof thee after all, Charlie,” says Joan. Cauchonhas been excommunicated and vilified. Dunoistells how he had helped drive the English out.“Perhaps I should never have let the priestsburn her; but I was busy fighting.” Warwickdeclares “when they make her a saint, she willowe her halo to me.” Ladvenu tells how finally,in 1920, Joan had indeed been made SaintJoan. They all praise her, and Joan asks if sheshould return to life? But each one admits thatshe had better not. “O God that madest thisbeautiful earth,” she cries, “When will it beready to receive Thy saints?”

Synopsis - Saint Joan

Anne-Marie Duff (Joan)

photo Kevin Cummins

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Anne-Marie Duff plays Saint Joan in thisproduction.

Had you worked with Marianne (Elliott,director] before?

The first time that I met Marianne was with a view to playing Joan in Saint Joan, and thatwas last autumn. I was very nervous, becauseI’ve watched her work and I think she’s anamazing storyteller. I was very excited.

Did you know the play before you went tomeet her?

The last time I’d read Saint Joan I was about18. It’s one of those rites-of-passage piecesfor young actresses: you can’t help but read it.

When you read it again, what were your firstimpressions?

Of the play itself, I just thought it wasincredibly pertinent and relevant for us now asan audience. All the points of reference areincredibly immediate. She is just such a vitalcharacter and also, over the past few years,we’ve all had to address the notion of what isa martyr, and what differentiates them fromother people or indeed what makes one ofthem a saint, or a sinner. I think that’s the kindof didactic that’s in the play anyway. It felt verycurrent.

Are you and Marianne working consciouslyto bring that out? How explicit are thosereferences in this production?

I think there are a couple of moments, certainlyin the trial scene, where we’re very aware of it.It was one of the first things we discussedwhen we first met. And it’s always been in myhead. You’re aware of it without labellinganything. I don’t think you need to actually. I think that’s the same with the epilogue: wedon’t need to be reminded about the relevanceof the play – which the epilogue kind of does,so I think it was appropriate to cut lots of theepilogue.

We’re in the penultimate week of rehearsalsnow. How do you think it’s going?

It’s been the most brilliant rehearsal process.It’s an incredible rehearsal room to be inbecause it’s an intensely safe atmosphere.Normally by this stage in rehearsals, one tendsto be full of panic and dread and fear, and I’mpretty certain that all of us are nervous, but Ithink we’re in a good place and have a realsense of the landscape of the play. Because of its episodic nature, because it’s so strictlydivided into six chapters, that really helps. It’slike six mini plays. I love the staging because it reminds me of a mystery play, which seemscompletely of the right flavour.

Is there any resonance in St Joan’s faith foryou? How do you access that as an actor?

I remember once talking to a priest abouthaving an intense faith, a vocational faith. He said it is like being in a loving relationship. I think that’s the way to think about it – thatsort of unconditional love that you would havefor a child, perhaps. It’s a commitment to an idealas well. I think there’s a safety and structure to religion that’s very comforting to a lot ofpeople: it give us a guideline for life. I think at times of crisis we need a heaven to lookforward to. During wars that is incrediblynecessary, or slavery, or any of those epiccrises that humans have to live through. Faithis intensified because it’s a coping mechanism.Joan’s faith is so much to do with hermentality, which raises all sorts of questionsabout whether she is suffering with any mentaldelusions or paranoias – which lots of peoplehave debated over.

Interview: Anne-Marie Duff

Anne-Marie Duff (Joan) in rehearsal

photo Kevin Cummins

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How helpful is that to you as the actor,when Joan talks about “my voices”?

It’s reasonably helpful. You, as Joan, have tobelieve that the voices are real. Whether youare ill or not is irrelevant because people whoare suffering with paranoid schizophreniaaren’t conscious of it unless they’re intreatment. You have to have as muchconviction as you can. The only way to make it valuable is for Joan to believe she is thechosen one, in her head.

How have you placed that in terms of herback story? How does someone like Joanspring up from nowhere?

It’s the time she’s born into, the family shecomes from and her age at which everythingstarts happening. At tha tage, people fall inlove for the first time and think they’ll diewithout it. And everything takes on a very epicquality. Everything is about life and death. Youare experiencing things for the first time andso the pain of anything feels like it might killyou because you don’t know that you canrecover. Within that, too, you have theinvincibility of youth and I think that’s thefascinating threshold that she’s at.

Joan is a child of her time. In terms of religion,she’s a child of her time as well. The medievalnotion of heaven and hell is a very differentone. The revolutionary idea that God will visityou personally, as opposed to you having togo via bishops or priests to get to him, is verymodern and very familiar. It doesn’t feel in anyway wrong. That’s her revolution.

Do you get the sense that Shaw really likesJoan?

I guess so, although sometimes as an actoryou do feel that she’s a bit relentless, and youthink, Enough already! But yes, you do feel thesupport of the writer. You don’t feel that you’refighting against judgement.

If you met Joan, do you think you’d likeher?

She’d probably drive you up the wall! Anybodywho has a commitment of that nature is utterlycompelling, whether they’re lunatics, or MartinLuther King. We’re drawn to people with atenacity and who are driven and seem toutilise every nerve to achieve their goal. We’realways really fascinated by them, whetherthey’re serial killers or revolutionaries, we justcan’t help but be intrigued by them. I certainlywould be very seduced into finding out moreabout her.

Interview: Anne-Marie Duff

Anne-Marie Duff (Joan)

photo Kevin Cummins

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Some directors have lists – was Saint Joanon the list for you?

No absolutely not. I do have a list, but it wasn’ton it. I didn’t know of it actually, I never reallythought of doing a Shaw play. But Nick Hytner[director of the National] sent it to me andasked me what I thought of it, and I thoughtactually it was really interesting. So I said itmight be quite good, especially if I could getthe right Joan to play it. Reading it made merealise what an extraordinary person she was.She was a real person, very ordinary, couldn’tread, couldn’t write and yet she became thisextraordinary person within two years and acatalyst to unify France. She’s afundamentalist, so I thought it was veryrelevant. Also, there aren’t many plays thathave such a fantastic part for a woman, whodrives every single scene. So yes, it reallyinterested me, but it was a bit scary.

Scary for you as a director?

Yes, ‘cause it’s quite wordy and there’s not ahuge amount of sub-text, which is what I likeand scary because I’ve never worked in theOlivier before. If you fail or you get somethingwrong, you’ve got a thousand people watchingyou. It’s very exposing. I wanted to do it in away that was possibly a bit more avant-gardethan had been done before. I had a particularvision for it, I suppose, quite a bold vision, soit’s very scary if it doesn’t work. We madebrave choices.

Going back to the casting, to finding theright Saint Joan. What was it about Anne-Marie Duff? You hadn’t worked with herbefore, had you?

No I’d never worked with her before but I’dseen a lot of her work. And I felt that she wasright because she has a core of integrity. She’sworried, for example, that Joan is going tolook smug, which I think is the danger withJoan, that just because she feels she has ahotline to God, she’s constantly alright andtherefore she’s got this kind of shield ofinvincibility around her. Whereas actually she’sa very ordinary person who has to struggle likeeverybody else does even though she has thisfaith in God. So Anne-Marie’s integrity wasimportant as well as the fact that she has astreetwise feel, and also you feel that she’syoung and youthful and vulnerable but alsothat she’s seen stuff; she has wisdom.

I want to ask about your idea of therepetition. When did that first occur to you –that central concept of trying to tell and re-tell Joan’s story until the world is readyfor her?

I can’t really remember when it first came tome! I suppose I thought that the Epilogue wasslightly strange and that, in the Epilogue, itwas a bit like actors talking about theircharacters after they’ve played it. It started awhole lot of thinking between Rae [Smith,designer] and I that the story could be told byan ensemble; the ensemble were actors thatwould get into character to get onto theplatform. And because the point of theEpilogue is that nobody will ever receive Joanagain, the world isn’t ready to receive her; itmade sense that we as actors would have tostart the whole thing again for tomorrow night.So it all came together, but it took a fewweeks, with Rae and I chatting about it.

Has working on this play made you thinkabout your own faith?

It doesn’t make me think about my own faith,because I’ve done quite a lot of soul searchingabout faith in the past and I don’t particularlywant to go over that ground at this moment inmy life. But it has made me think more firmlyabout things that I thought before, which Isuppose is that there are two sides to everystory: to some people Joan’s a martyr, toothers she’s a terrorist. That’s the sort ofmessage I’m trying to tell with this production I

Interview: Marianne Elliott, director

Marianne Elliott in rehearsal

photo Kevin Cummins

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suppose. But although life is never that simple,although she’s a fundamentalist, and aninsurgent, she’s now absolutely lauded to thehills. We’ve now had 500 years between herlife and now, so we can, with hindsight, lookback at her and canonise her as a saint.Maybe that will happen in the future with otherpeople and maybe we should try and take thaton board a bit more as we are living our lives,with people in our lives now.

Do you feel like you can put this play ‘tobed’ or do you feel restless about playsafter you’ve directed them?

I don’t think you ever put a play to bed until it’sfinished. You get obsessed and completelydevoted and addicted to it until it’s finished.You have to be, I think, in order to work on it,to keep going with it, and keep plugging away.Sometime it’s quite difficult to get distancefrom it until it’s over and be objective about it. Iwon’t know what’s good or bad about thisproduction – even though I’ve been workingreally hard on it – until it’s finished.

Interview: Marianne Elliott, director

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The visual language of Marianne Elliott’sproduction of Saint Joan

Perhaps this production's biggest departurefrom Shaw's play as it first appeared in 1923 is the visual language which the director,Marianne Elliott, has created. Collaboratingclosely in advance of and throughout therehearsal process with choreographer, HofeshSchecter and designer, Rae Smith, Mariannehas been in pursuit of physical and scenicaction on stage that will support her centralidea; the notion that in every age ofhumankind, saints are burnt or destroyed by a society who simply cannot recognise or understand them. This idea of helplessrepetition is emphasised in much of thechoreography; for example, the play beginsand ends with an identical sequence of theensemble unravelling the chairs that make up Joan's funeral pyre, suggesting that thiscompany of storytellers are trapped in anendless cycle of telling and retelling Joan'sstory until there is a breakthrough in finallyunderstanding this young martyr. And in theworld of the play, the breakthrough nevercomes…

Another, key decision of Marianne's was tostage the scenes that Shaw didn't write; togive life to key events like Joan's victoriousbattle at Orleans and Charles' subsequentcoronation at Rheims cathedral, and by doingso, enliven Joan and the characters aroundher. As Rae Smith says;

“We began the process for Saint Joan by

asking what was brilliant about Shaw, andwhat needed to be emphasised in ourproduction? What became clear from reading it was the play's vigorous intellectual line andvery determined pattern - its skeleton was verymuch in place - but it came across as quitedry and not at all sensual. Joan’s spirit was apassive idea rather than a proactive entity. Thefeeling of the world and the questions of beingalive were subdued with the bigger, intellectualargument. So our question then became howwould we stage the play with an emphasis ona kind of living, breathing, visceral, space, howcould we give the play life?”

As a result, in this production, we witnessJoan's bloodlust in the violent and brutal battlescene and so we understand the way in whichthis remarkable 17-year-old girl could haveactively inspired these jaded, war-wearyFrench soldiers to achieve great victories.Rae's set, barren but for its war-blasted trees,suggests that where there was once the idyllic,pastoral France that Joan despairs of beingshut away from when she is condemned in thetrial, "…the light of the sky, and the sight of the fields and the flowers”, there is now onlydesolation, and a war torn landscape strippedof all colour and life. This barren lifelessnessthat frames the stage echoes the state-of-mindof the men that Joan encounters andsystematically reawakens and inspires as she journeys through the play.

Hofesh Schecter has worked very closely onusing the chairs that the ensemble memberssit on; other than the trees and the centralplatform, they are the only 'set' to speak of. As well as providing these storytellers with anever-present place to be, to witness, on stage,these chairs become, at various times in theaction of the play, a weapon, an opponent inwar and an impromptu stake at which Joan will finally burn. The way we learn about thechanging function of these inanimate objectsis through the physicality of the actor workingwith them. When they pull apart the pile ofchairs at the beginning of the play with asense of hallowed awe, we learn somethingabout the focus and purpose with which theyare bound to tell us this story. And later on,when they slam the chairs down in battle as if crushing an enemy skull, we witness thedesperation of these Frenchmen to defeat theinvading English who have been holding theircountry to ransom for generations.

The visual language

Actors mount the platform,central to Rae Smith’s set design

photo Kevin Cummins

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The platform is also a key design element keybecause it focuses the vast space of theOlivier theatre and, as Rae says, it sets up adeliberate and purposeful area in which Joan’sstory can be told;

“‘Do we declare we are telling a story?’ was animportant question we asked ourselves as westarted work. We felt that the acting companyshould be empowered by the story in order totell it. In terms of the design, what that meantwas to build a platform in which someonecould enter the space – The Olivier, which is abig space – and then deliberately, consciously,enter a stage in order to tell this story. Theplatform also allows the Olivier space to work;it focuses the story and allows the space tobreathe without building a ‘set’. I’ve worked ona Shaw play before – Mrs Warren’s Profession– and what one can be confident of is Shaw'sstructure. What we’ve done here, for SaintJoan, is got rid of the walls and the frontcurtain, and so the play lives in an open space which isn’t proscenium, it’s slightlycinemascope, and at the same time it is like anapron stage. You’ve got a double perspective.That’s how we’ve done it."

This central design concept of the platformalso responds to Marianne’s brief of creating asense of the epic on stage for this productionof Saint Joan. The platform simultaneouslycreates the feeling of a vast landscape and issimple enough to allow the actors to functionas the storytellers within it. As Rae describesit;

“What one has to do is focus the detail of theminimal, and then allow the epic to occur,rather than design an epic space; that’s whatthe Olivier space is, anyway. So the focus of the individual, the human figure in there is achieved by the use of the platform, and then by creating a landscape around it whichdoesn’t shut down the space; it allows it toflourish and live quite easily, but it helps focusthe minimal, the acting space of the platformand the actors themselves; it gives itparameters.”

In terms of the specifics of time and place, thedesign of this production of Saint Joan echoesboth when the play is set – France in 1429 –and the time when Shaw was writing it – as anIrishman living in London in the early 1920’s.Marianne felt that the Anglo/Irish politicalsituation that was contemporary to Shaw was

extremely prescient in the author’s mind whenhe wrote ‘St Joan’, which is, after all, a playabout an individual who fights, with God, forthe right to ‘Home Rule’. In design terms, thistranslates directly into the early 20th century-style army uniforms that the English andFrench soldiers and, indeed, Joan herself,wear. Thus, Poulengey, a squire in rural, 15thcentury English-occupied France, bears morethan a passing resemblance to an Englishsoldier in the trenches of the Great War or anIrish freedom-fighter on the streets of Dublinduring the Easter rising. In addition, there arekey visual markers in Shaw’s script which rootthe play exactly in its medieval timeline, suchas Dunois’s shield, decorated with the ‘bendsinister’, or Joan’s sword, found, as she tells it,“behind the altar in the church of St Catherine,where God hid it for me…”. These have beenretained and combined with the 20th centuryvisual references so that the politicalcircumstances of both these eras can resonatefor this production in a way that is poetic,literal and epic, all at once. As Rae says,

“The year the play was first performed (1923)and the year Joan was burned (1431) are reallyimportant reference points to get to the truth ofthe story of Saint Joan. We wanted to interpretthese periods of time in a non-documentary,non-literal way; a more poetic way in order totell the story. You have to nail the specificelements, though, so I’ve been particular aboutthe pageantry and the coronation of Charles,for example; moments when the visual imageryshould be directly sourced.”

Ultimately, these design specifics that combineto create the visual language of the productionwill reach each audience member in a differentway. It is the job of Marianne and her creativeteam to suggest echoes and parallels; thesecond half of the theatre dialogue occurswhen the audience respond to thesesuggestions and challenges in ways which willresonate for themselves, as they witnesses thisre-telling of Joan’s story.

The visual language of Saint Joan

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PAUL READY: THE DAUPHIN

Have you worked with Marianne before?

No I haven’t. I’ve watched stuff Marianne did,like Therese Raquin, which was very brilliantand beautiful. So I was very excited to workwith her and very excited to do this play, andthis part, the Dauphin, which is a really funpart.

Is that the main appeal of the part, that youcan have fun with it?

Well, it is one of the great appeals. But alsobecause of the plays I’ve just been doing, Iwas looking forward to play a character. I’vedone a couple of plays which haven’t reallyrequired character work, with Katie Mitchell.

Is it hard to adapt to different directors andtheir styles?

No, I don’t think so. I think what Katie taughtme, which is so brilliant, is to ask a lot ofquestions, which you do anyway, butsometimes you forget how many you have toask. You can’t say somebody’s name or talk ofa place like Orleans or Chinon, withoutknowing what that place is. Katie has a verythorough way of working which is notsomething I’ve always done, really and it’sgood to take that into another process.

What did you first think of the Dauphinwhen you read it? Did you know the play?

I didn’t know the play at all. It takes me a littlewhile – or with something like this, a long timeto digest it and come up with any kind of

questions or ideas of what I would do with it,how I see it. But having said that, it’s obviousthat it’s a fun part, he is obviously very witty,but at the same time very childish, intelligent,petulant, moody, very changeable, veryinsecure, very paranoid. A lot of things to lookat or discover, or a lot of choices.

Is there a particular aspect of the characterthat you find especially difficult?

The major challenge at the moment is thatthere’s a lot to know historically, but it’s notnecessarily the historical characters that Shawhas written. For example, historically theDauphin is very pious and attended threemasses a day, ad would never let the businessof court get in the way of religion. That’s not inthe play. So you need to filter it out. Do all theresearch and then filter what’s not useful.

Can you tell me about the work you’ve beendoing on the physicality of the Dauphin?

That is something I am looking at in the historybooks. He is quite a physically weak character,he doesn’t really fit into what you’d imagine a king to be – graceful and stately – he’sinsecure and treated as a child and nobodyreally believes in him as a king. Then there arethe rumours about his illegitimacy. This feedsinto his physicality and at the moment, afidgety-ness, a petulance, a stamping kid who loses his temper in a sulky way is what’sdeveloping, physically. Because this is quitespecific, because it was said historically, Iguess I try something out in rehearsals, to tryand break through not walking like how I walk,not moving how I move. This time, I did somework with Hofesh, the choreographer, I askedhim to keep an eye on what I was doing, notbeing too exaggerated. You want it to be partof a person, you don’t want it to stick out so itlooks like a funny walk or a funny physicality.It’s got to be how someone is. I haven’t beentrying for something really obscure or reallyexaggerated, I’ve just been trying gradually to feed things in.

Does the audience’s response to yourcharacter ever cross your mind?

I don’t know. I don’t think about what I’mtrying to get across, I’m trying to think aboutwhat Shaw has written, so I find out what he’swritten. As an audience, you make up yourown mind. It’s a slippery slope if you try and

Company interviews

Paul Ready (Dauphin) in rehearsal

photo Kevin Cummins

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get an audience to feel something, forget itbecause you won’t be able to – they’re allindividuals.

Do you understand why the Dauphinbetrays Joan?

Historically, he was very good at using factionsin the court, and playing people off each other.He would never get too close to anybody. Sothat if they became unpopular, he could justsidestep and move to somebody else. If Joanis becoming unpopular, he doesn’t want to beattached to her too much. In the play, it feelslike her popularity is challenging his newposition as a king. Now she’s got him there, all the people are calling out for Joan and not him, so maybe there’s jealousy. But whydoesn’t stop her from being burned? It’samazing that he doesn’t.

SIMON BUBB: CANON DE COURCELLES

What made you want to be an actor?

I started, like most people, at school and whenyou do school plays that’s the moment whenyou think actually, this is the thing I enjoy morethan anything else. I went to university andstudied English, ‘cause I was persuaded thatway, to get a degree and do somethingserious, rather than going to drama school and as I got to my final year at university, I stillhadn’t come across anything that I wanted todo more than acting. I decided I did need totrain to be a professional actor, so I applied todrama schools, and went to Webber Douglasin London on the two-year postgraduate.

Have you worked with Marianne before?

Yes, I have, on Much Ado About Nothing,which was part of the RSC Complete WorksFestival last year, which was fantastic. I loved working with Marianne – so much, that I practically hounded her until she gaveme a part in this play!

What’s particularly good about having heras a director?

The bottom line is that she’s very good. Shecreates shows that audiences enjoy, so youfeel safe and you can trust her to do a goodproduction. You actually feel that in rehearsalsas well. You feel you’re in the hands ofsomebody who knows what they’re doing andhas a vision. She won’t just do the same oldthing: she tries things that are new anddifferent. But she does it in a way that makesyou feel part of the process, You don’t feelalienated by her.

How do you see Courcelles?

Marianne is quite keen to say that Shaw hasnot written any people who are black or white.In the trial process, which has historically beenseen as completely corrupt and unfair, Shaw iskeen that everyone has their own point of view.If there’s anyone who is more closely drawn asa villain, Courcelles’ one of them. But he’s nota complete caricature; he’s believable. Thereare people like that, even today, who will fightfor what they believe to be justice, and whocannot really be persuaded by emotionalarguments, or have sympathy.

And so how do you find it in yourself to getthe truth of someone like Courcelles?

It’s helpful that we’re doing a play that’shistory-based. So you can do your research.For example, Courcelles was the one most in favour of torturing Joan and when you lookat the trial records, you find that’s true: therewere 14 assessors and only three of themvoted to torture her and one of them wasCourcelles. So you know that it wasn’t just adramatic device: it’s really what happened. He must have had a good reason as far as he was concerned. What I have found useful,which is something we’ve done throughout therehearsal process, is to draw comparisons withthe Iraq war and the trial of Saddam – not thatJoan and Saddam are the same, butcomparable. So I wondered how does

Company interviews

James Hayes (Archbishop of Rheims), Paul Ready (Dauphin) and

Anne-Marie Duff (Joan)

photo Kevin Cummins

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Courcelles feel at the end, the chance thatJoan might have got away with it? Constantlythrough the process most of the priestsbelieved that the most important aim is to save Joan’s soul. I sort of think that Courcellesdoesn’t necessarily agree with that. He knowshe ought to. But I feel he’s probably like someAmerican preachers, even if Saddam hadtotally repented and asked forgiveness for all the things he’d done, there must be somereligious people who would say hang him, to punish him for what he’s done. I thinkCourcelles is just so wrapped up with the fact that she’s such a horrendous heretic.

You’re beginning to sound like Courcelles!

At the moment I’m toying with how far to go interms of creating a psychological background.Is the fact that she’s a woman a real problemfor him? It sounds ridiculous but you couldstart asking what is in Courcelles backgroundto make him like that – did his mother desertor mistreat him? Is he taking it out on Joan inthe way that is more than just about whatshe’s done but is about him as well?

Is that something that you do in private asan actor or do you need to do that in therehearsal room?

In general I think you do it in private, becausethere’s absolutely nothing in the text tosupport that. That would be my own stuff.

You’re understudying Warwick – and youcould see Courcelles as a younger versionof Warwick, really.

You could do, absolutely. They’re both prettyruthless. Except that Warwick represents verymuch the secular power. If Warwick andCourcelles met they probably wouldn’t get on,although they might have the same aims interms of Joan. I understudied last year at theRSC. In Romeo and Juliet I went on for amonth as Benvolio. It’s fun but terrifiying; it’slike ice-skating: you’re terrified that at anymoment you’re going to fall over. Then I wenton again for the Duke of Austria with a bitmore warning. More fun.

POLLY LISTER: UNDERSTUDY JOAN

What were your first impressions of thecharacter when you read the play?

I think she’s fantastic. I absolutely fell for herreally. She is so powerful, because her missionis so clear. She knows exactly what she wants

and she meets these men who are essentiallyher barriers, and she has to get through them.She very quickly assimilates what she needs to be to these people and she provides it. Andshe’s courageous, positive and unstoppable. I remember saying in the audition to Marianne,the reason why I loved Joan is because she isbrilliant, but terrifying. If someone is thatbrilliant and that positive and sure ofthemselves, they are terrifying.

What do you think about the question ofJoan and her miracles in the play?

I think the Archbishop has got something whenhe says that miracles shouldn’t be dismissedbecause even if you don’t believe in them, ifthey’re a miracle to someone, then they’re amiracle. If they can change great swathes ofnegativity or cynicism, then it’s a miracle. Idon’t think Joan is capable of turning waterinto wine, but I think that if you are someonewho has been lonely for a long time and youcrave a friend and the friend comes along,that’s a miracle.

Do you think that’s how Joan sees it?

No. She thinks that she’s divine. I think shefeels that she is the speaker of God. Hespeaks to her, she shines it out. She doesn’tthink she is filtering it, but she is, for her owngains. I think she sees herself as a very purevessel which just receives information andgives it life.

It must be difficult to understudy Joan.Does that make you nervous?

I’m sure when it happens, I’ll be extremelynervous! But I don’t know the words yet,because I am watching how her relationshipsdevelop with the different men. It’s not myjourney, but I have to watch for those tinynuances, which is why I never get bored inthese rehearsals, because things are changingall the time.

What’s quite sad, is that I know the first time alot of the company are going to see my Joan iswhen I’m up there doing it. But when I get up,all I am able to show, is going to be thefinished article. That is going to scare mebecause then people might think, Blimey, Ididn’t believe that. When you watch a trapezeartist: if they waver and then succeed, you’reso pleased for them. I quite like to show myunderbelly, but I think an understudy can’tbecause they just have to get up and do it.

Company interviews