1 of 49 Faculty Survey on Workload and Teaching 1. What do you think is the best measure of faculty workload? Response Percent Response Count Number of classes 35.0% 7 Number of students 15.0% 3 Number of credits 15.0% 3 Number of credits x's number of students 75.0% 15 Other (please specify) 16 answered question 20 skipped question 8 2. Are you willing to teach in a part-time program with a class offered in the evening that requires faculty to rotate through once every three semesters? Response Percent Response Count Yes 70.4% 19 No 7.4% 2 Depends, please see answer in text box 22.2% 6 Text box 10 answered question 27 skipped question 1
Transcript
1 of 49
Faculty Survey on Workload and Teaching
1. What do you think is the best measure of faculty workload?
Response
Percent
Response
Count
Number of classes 35.0% 7
Number of students 15.0% 3
Number of credits 15.0% 3
Number of credits x's number of
students75.0% 15
Other (please specify)
16
answered question 20
skipped question 8
2. Are you willing to teach in a part-time program with a class offered in the evening that
requires faculty to rotate through once every three semesters?
Response
Percent
Response
Count
Yes 70.4% 19
No 7.4% 2
Depends, please see answer in text
box22.2% 6
Text box
10
answered question 27
skipped question 1
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3. Regardless of whether it is in a part-time program or in our current program, are you
willing to teach after five o'clock?
Response
Percent
Response
Count
Yes 63.0% 17
No 11.1% 3
Depends, please see answer in text
box29.6% 8
Text box
10
answered question 27
skipped question 1
4. Should a required course such as P.I. (administrative law) be offered in the summer?
Response
Percent
Response
Count
Yes 63.0% 17
No 11.1% 3
Depends, please see answer in text
box29.6% 8
Text box
12
answered question 27
skipped question 1
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5. Should popular non-bar electives be offered as often as possible even if doing so
reduces the possibility for new or other non-bar electives to be offered?
Response
Percent
Response
Count
Yes 29.6% 8
No 37.0% 10
Depends, please see answer in text
box33.3% 9
Text box
15
answered question 27
skipped question 1
6. What factors should the Academic Dean take into consideration when selecting which
fourth semester lawyering seminars to offer, if only 5 - 7 seminars are needed depending
on class size?
Response
Count
26
answered question 26
skipped question 2
7. What factors should the Academic Dean and Clinic Dean take into consideration when
determining which clinics or concentrations to offer, realizing that we may need fewer
clinics or concentrations depending the class size?
Response
Count
26
answered question 26
skipped question 2
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8. What is the minimum number of students who should be enrolled in an elective to allow
that elective to go forward?
Response
Percent
Response
Count
8 50.0% 13
10 38.5% 10
12 11.5% 3
Other (please explain)
7
answered question 26
skipped question 2
9. What is the minimum number of students who should be enrolled in a bar elective or
required course to allow that course to go forward?
Response
Percent
Response
Count
10 or more 60.0% 15
15 or more 40.0% 10
Other (please explain)
7
answered question 25
skipped question 3
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10. What is the optimal size for lawyering seminar, and is there a difference between first
and second-year lawyering in answering this question?
Response
Percent
Response
Count
15 26.9% 7
16 38.5% 10
17 7.7% 2
18 26.9% 7
Difference in terms of class size between 1st and 2d year lawyering.
19
answered question 26
skipped question 2
11. What is the optimal enrollment for bar elective? If it depends on the class or the faculty
member, please explain.
Response
Percent
Response
Count
10 or more 8.0% 2
20 - 30 44.0% 11
30 - 60 32.0% 8
60 and above 0.0% 0
Does not matter 12.0% 3
Does not matter once enrollment is
more than 30 students16.0% 4
Other (please explain)
10
answered question 25
skipped question 3
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12. What is the optimal enrollment for first and second-year required classes? If it depends
on the class, the year of the students, or the faculty member, please explain.
Response
Percent
Response
Count
10 or more 0.0% 0
20 - 30 19.2% 5
30 - 60 53.8% 14
60 and above 3.8% 1
Does not matter 11.5% 3
Does not matter once enrollment is
more than 30 students15.4% 4
Other (please explain)
10
answered question 26
skipped question 2
13. Should first-year students be placed in classes of varying size? If so, what should be
taken into account when selecting class size, other than room availability?
Response
Percent
Response
Count
Yes (please explain using text
box)73.9% 17
No 26.1% 6
Text box
20
answered question 23
skipped question 5
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14. Should we as faculty reconsider the requirement of requiring at least two assessment
devices in our classes?
Response
Percent
Response
Count
Yes 52.0% 13
No 48.0% 12
Text Box
13
answered question 25
skipped question 3
15. Should we as a faculty encourage the use of more than one type of assessment metric
in our classes, e.g. multiple choice questions, essay questions, reflection papers, class
participation, etc.? Alternatively, should faculty be encouraged to give the same kind of
assessment device to give students a chance to develop mastery?
Response
Count
25
answered question 25
skipped question 3
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16. Should faculty who are teaching the same subject during the same semester work
together to ensure that coverage, approach to assessment, and final grading ranges and
averages are similar?
Response
Percent
Response
Count
Yes 33.3% 9
No 33.3% 9
Depends (please see text box) 40.7% 11
Text box
19
answered question 27
skipped question 1
17. If you answered yes to Question 16, would you be willing to work together in this way,
even if it meant additional meetings?
Response
Percent
Response
Count
Yes 66.7% 14
No 9.5% 2
Depends (please see answer in text
box)28.6% 6
Text Box
11
answered question 21
skipped question 7
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18. Should the Academic Dean assign first, second, and third-year coordinators to help
ensure a more consistent classroom experience for our students?
Response
Percent
Response
Count
Yes 45.5% 10
No 54.5% 12
Other (please explain)
14
answered question 22
skipped question 6
19. If you answered yes to Question 18, would you be willing to participate in the
coordination of the program, even if that meant additional meetings?
Response
Percent
Response
Count
Yes 57.1% 12
No 19.0% 4
Depends (please see answer in text
box)23.8% 5
Text Box
9
answered question 21
skipped question 7
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Page 1, Q1. What do you think is the best measure of faculty workload?
1 An important question but have to make sure we are comparing apples toapples. Some classes are more labor intensive than others. First-yearlawyering and Clinics come to mind. That said, I understand that grading 70, 80or more exams demands an awful lot of time. I think we need to break this downa bit more into similar classes (e.g., first-year, 4th semester lawyering seminars,etc.), and thereafter try and compare across classes that are very different indesign and purpose.
Mar 7, 2013 2:45 PM
2 While the best metric among the ones listed above (if I were forced to chooseone from that set) would be [number of credits x number of students], it stilldoesn't reflect "depth" for lack of a better term. In other words, those who teachon the clinical side may have fewer students, and even if you multiply the heaviercredit load for clinical courses by that lower number of students, the resultingnumber would still pale next to the same metric for a doctrinal faculty memberteaching a core course with 70+ students. However, what remains unseen withthat metric is the in-depth attention clinical faculty provide each student. Theywork daily (and nightly and by phone and email) with students, and that is a*huge* workload, but it is a workload that none of the measures offered in themultiple choice questionnaire accounts for fully. Simply put, while these metricsmay be great in measuring doctrinal faculty's workload, they are worthless inmeasuring clinical faculty's workload. The latter should be measured on its ownscale, one that takes into account that fundamental reality of clinical work: depth.
Mar 6, 2013 10:29 AM
3 I think the best measure is how intensive is the feedback given to the students,the quantity and quality of opportunities for feedback, and the contact hours withstudents outside of the classroom.
Mar 5, 2013 12:20 AM
4 Although I think it is best to start with considering the number of students and thenumber of credits, I would also give some weight to the type of courses. A largefirst-year course is more demanding than an upper level course of a similar sizebecause of the attention first years need. Similarly, a lawyering seminar or otherskills-based course may require more work than a 20-person doctrinal course. Iguess it is more of an art than a science.
Mar 4, 2013 4:12 PM
5 Combination of the above choices. Mar 3, 2013 7:32 PM
6 Number of classes x students x type and frequency of feedback. Workload isonly indirectly related to number of students, classes or credits. Workload ismost closely related to the amount and quality of feedback students get. ThusLawyering seminars and courses with writing assignments throughout thesemester are the best measure of workload. Number of students is importantbecause (assuming you are accessible and supportive) these students willcontinue to take time and attention during 3 years of law school.
Mar 3, 2013 1:06 PM
7 some combination of number of classroom hours, number of students, andnumber of individualized assessments per class
Mar 2, 2013 7:30 PM
8 It depends on a many factors including number of classes, students, credits, andthe nature of the class.
Feb 27, 2013 1:08 PM
9 Structure of class also should be taken into account. A multiple choice mid-termand final is a different workload than the typical lawyering seminar.
Feb 25, 2013 3:54 PM
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Page 1, Q1. What do you think is the best measure of faculty workload?
10 Sorry for the nonanswer, but I think all of these factors are relevant. Perhapsthere is a way to arrive at a some sort of measure that takes into considerationnumber of classes, students, & credits?
Feb 25, 2013 2:07 PM
11 None of these are very good measures of faculty workload. I think that thenumber of credits times the number of students is the best of the options. Noneof these reflect class prep, amount and quality of feedback, out of class studentcontact, etc.
Feb 25, 2013 5:26 AM
12 with some adjustment for large numbers of students or many evaluativeassigments (papers, essay exams, etc.). At the moment, number of credits doesnot *necessarily* seem to reflect workload (for either students or faculty)
Feb 24, 2013 7:24 PM
13 It seems that workload should take into account not only the number of studentsand the number of credits, but some measure of how much feedback/ one onone supervision is given/expected
Feb 24, 2013 6:33 PM
14 Nature of course 1. whether individualize instruction is expected. 2. whetherteacher is responsible for client as well as student
Feb 24, 2013 5:49 PM
15 But this should also include "type of course" AND type of teaching. For example,two elective seminars can be taught very differently.
Feb 24, 2013 5:44 PM
16 IF we do not consider clinics and concentrations I think the number of creditsand number of students is a good standard because it does account for some(not all) of the additional work a faculty member does in lawyering seminars. Ingeneral I think a faculty member should teach 2 classes each semester.However it is unfair that some faculty teach two classes of 15 students andothers teach two classes with 60 or more students. Thus adding the number ofstudents into the mix might provide a better measurement.
Feb 24, 2013 5:27 PM
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Page 2, Q2. Are you willing to teach in a part-time program with a class offered in the evening that requiresfaculty to rotate through once every three semesters?
1 I am willing to do this once every three semesters if this is something that allfaculty do. I am willing if this is seen by the faculty as a shared commitment andresponsibility and we each bear this commitment equally.
Mar 5, 2013 12:22 AM
2 Yes, if other faculty participate and the university supports us in the expansionby allowing the hiring of additional faculty for the additional load the nightcourses would create.
Mar 4, 2013 4:13 PM
3 It depends on the schedule and adequate staffing (both support staff andfaculty).
Mar 3, 2013 7:33 PM
4 But I would much prefer a rotation of every 4th semester. Mar 3, 2013 1:12 PM
5 depends on how many hours/times per week and schedule for other obligations Mar 2, 2013 7:31 PM
6 evening is very difficult to me. with enough advance notice, i will do my part but iwill not be able to do it without advance notice.
Feb 27, 2013 9:43 PM
7 Assuming that the day classes can be coordinated with the time of the eveningclass to avoid very long days into the evening.
Feb 27, 2013 1:10 PM
8 Yes, I'm wiling if I have to, but I'm not in favor of it. Feb 25, 2013 12:21 PM
9 Only if every faculty member is required to rotate once every three semesters. Feb 25, 2013 5:28 AM
10 depends on how often class meets and on compensation (time or money) Feb 24, 2013 7:25 PM
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Page 3, Q3. Regardless of whether it is in a part-time program or in our current program, are you willing to teachafter five o'clock?
1 This will depend on the need and structure for this. If there is a need, I would bewilling. But again, this can really work only if this is a shared commitment andresponsibility on the part of each and every faculty. If this is needed, everyfaculty should have to commit to this on an equal basis. The "burdens" need toshared equally, and not fall upon some more than others.
Mar 5, 2013 12:24 AM
2 It depends on the schedule and adequate staffing (support staff and faculty). Mar 3, 2013 7:34 PM
3 I have a strong preference for teaching during the day but if needed, I'm willingto teach in the evenings every few semesters.
Mar 3, 2013 1:14 PM
4 It would need lead time to make it work. Feb 28, 2013 11:41 AM
5 evenings are extremely difficult to me because of family responsibilities. i wouldvastly prefer to teach during daytime hours.
Feb 27, 2013 9:44 PM
6 Prefer early morning classes which are generally better for both the students andthe teacher.
Feb 27, 2013 1:11 PM
7 Yes, but not much later. (I would if I had to but I'm not in favor of it). Feb 25, 2013 12:21 PM
8 On occasion. Feb 25, 2013 5:29 AM
9 Only if required to do so by a PT program. Feb 24, 2013 9:04 PM
10 I am willing, but it would require me to incur add'l childcare costs. Feb 24, 2013 7:26 PM
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Page 4, Q4. Should a required course such as P.I. (administrative law) be offered in the summer?
1 It's good if students can get this out of the way so that they can create moreroom during the regular semesters to take other bar electives they need and/orto explore a true elective. It will create more flexibility for students and that is apositive thing to do.
Mar 5, 2013 12:26 AM
2 It depends on the expectations of the course requirements and whether it can becovered over a short period of time despite fulfilling the ABA's minimuminstructional hours.
Mar 3, 2013 7:38 PM
3 If possible. What is important is that summer offerings satisfy some of CUNY'smany requirements whether bar "electives" or requirements..
Mar 3, 2013 1:20 PM
4 depends on student demand and faculty Mar 2, 2013 7:32 PM
5 so long as we have interested faculty, i think it is a good idea to offer a mix ofrequired courses and electives over the summer
Feb 27, 2013 9:45 PM
6 Probably, but the compressed nature of summer school classes limits thepedagogical options a teacher has.
Feb 25, 2013 3:56 PM
7 Why not? The more flexibility for students the better. Feb 25, 2013 2:08 PM
8 Not sure. Feb 25, 2013 12:22 PM
9 If you mean could it be? I would say yes - any required upper division classcould be. Should it be? Only if a teacher who knows how to teach it during thesemester offers it. This way we know it will be a comparable course
Feb 24, 2013 5:51 PM
10 PI, yes, but NOT other required courses such as Property. Feb 24, 2013 5:45 PM
11 Not sure which required course other than PI could be offered but providing arequired course in the summer (as long as it is taught rigorously) can providespace for students in their 2d year curriculum to take other courses or take fewercredits one of the semesters.
Feb 24, 2013 5:29 PM
12 If there is student demand, yes. Feb 24, 2013 5:21 PM
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Page 5, Q5. Should popular non-bar electives be offered as often as possible even if doing so reduces thepossibility for new or other non-bar electives to be offered?
1 I need to answer this with regard to specific classes. Mar 7, 2013 2:46 PM
2 It would depend on frequency under either system. Mar 6, 2013 10:31 AM
3 I think student demand should drive what's offered in terms of non-bar electives.That said, there may be reasons why a teacher or the Academic Dean would notwant to offer a non-bar elective every year even if it's popular because there maybe other curricular demands that that teacher may need to fill.
Mar 5, 2013 12:31 AM
4 It's an odd question in the abstract, but non-bar courses with a track record ofenrollment and interest should generally be offered to the students.
Mar 4, 2013 4:15 PM
5 It depends on how you define "popular". Is it based on who is teaching thecourse or is it the subject-matter? Inclination is to allow new or other non-barelectives.
Mar 3, 2013 7:48 PM
6 Our program has many requirements. One way to make them more manageablefor students is to provide the offerings often so they have flexibility about how tomeet our requirements. For some students this flexibility could mean thedifference between success and failure (or a 7th semester) in the program.
Feb 28, 2013 11:44 AM
7 we should have a clear schedule so that students can plan their courses. but,our course offerings are already too limited. I don't want us to take any steps thatwill further limit the breadth of our curriculum.
Feb 27, 2013 9:46 PM
8 I would say yes (along the lines of 'if it ain't broke don't fix it') but with one caveat.If the class is popular with students but few faculty wish to teach it, I thinkperhaps we should make room for new/other electives because it's hard to seehow faculty could really teach a class WELL if they weren't excited about it. Andthe new/other electives might BECOME popular with students if they are taughtby faculty who are excited about those classes.
Feb 27, 2013 5:12 PM
9 I think even popular courses should rotate. Feb 25, 2013 3:57 PM
10 Not sure. Maybe not "as often as possible" Feb 25, 2013 12:23 PM
11 Yes, if they help our students get jobs. No, I guess, if not. Feb 24, 2013 9:04 PM
12 There needs to be a balance between the currently popular electives, knowingthat a student could most likely take it at some point during the second or thirdyear, and creating an opportunity for students to take new electives that interestthem.
Feb 24, 2013 6:35 PM
13 Bar electives should be offered rationally and predictably so that students canknow ahead of time what semester it will be offered. They should be offered sothat everyone who wants to should be able to take the course but I do not thinkthey have to be offered every semester so long as students know the scheduleand can be admitted to the course when it is offered.
Feb 24, 2013 5:53 PM
14 It depends upon what "popular" means . . . Feb 24, 2013 5:46 PM
15 While it is good to offer popular courses, doing so all the time limits the ability forus to try out new courses which is essential in this environment. I would limit
Feb 24, 2013 5:31 PM
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Page 5, Q5. Should popular non-bar electives be offered as often as possible even if doing so reduces thepossibility for new or other non-bar electives to be offered?
how often an elective is offered to no more than twice every three years.
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Page 6, Q6. What factors should the Academic Dean take into consideration when selecting which fourthsemester lawyering seminars to offer, if only 5 - 7 seminars are needed depending on class size?
1 This assumes we agree that we should reduce our offerings to 5-7. What is theminimum number that is necessary for any class? If we get to a place where itseems the best thing to do is reduce the number of 4th semester seminars, thenconsider student interest followed by the interest of the faculty involved (e.g., arethere faculty members who would rather teach something else?). How do wemeasure student interest? Of course, waiting to see how many students applyfor which seminar makes intuitive sense, but it is likely best to know where weare before that. Is there a way to gauge student interest? What aboutexamining the last three years worth of seminar choices?
Mar 7, 2013 2:50 PM
2 faculty ability and availability; ensuring the "fundamentals" are covered; studentpreference
Mar 6, 2013 10:32 AM
3 Whether the skills taught in a 4th semester lawyering seminar are transferrableto many different lawyering contexts, the kind of feedback that's given from theteacher, whether the lawyering seminar is practice-oriented, the quality ofstudent feedback given to the teacher, the level of enrollment that the seminarconsistently gets, the opportunities it creates for employment, the degree ofinnovation in the lawyering seminar of tackling cutting -edge public interestpractice issues or areas, does the seminar fill a curricular vacuum - i.e.addresses an issue that there's no other way to study it at CUNY law.
7 student interest, value for clinic/concentration preparation Mar 2, 2013 7:33 PM
8 student faculty ratio and student interest Feb 28, 2013 11:45 AM
9 student interest, availability of jobs in the subject matter area (ie, for family andjuvenile right, education, criminal law, judicial clerkships - there are jobsavailable even in bad economic times)
Feb 28, 2013 10:45 AM
10 Students should be surveyed. Feb 28, 2013 9:36 AM
11 how much (or whether) those lawyering seminars include writing; studentinterest; balance and depth across the curriculum; spreading workloads moreevenly (especially first year lawyering) across the faculty
Feb 27, 2013 9:48 PM
12 What classes students seem most interested in and faculty workload. It desn'tseem like the Academic Dean would need to consider whether the electivesoverlap with a bar course of study because the electives exist to give students achance to learn something unrelated to the bar.
Feb 27, 2013 5:15 PM
13 A range of skills taught, student interest, and importance to developing excellentlawyers,
Feb 27, 2013 1:13 PM
14 student interest; employment opportunities; range and nature of experiences Feb 26, 2013 2:45 PM
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Page 6, Q6. What factors should the Academic Dean take into consideration when selecting which fourthsemester lawyering seminars to offer, if only 5 - 7 seminars are needed depending on class size?
offered
15 Student interest, faculty interest Feb 26, 2013 12:22 PM
16 Student demand, creating a variety of subject areas & skills options overall (i.e.,trial, appellate, etc.), all should have opportunity to do writing and get writtenfeedback.
Feb 26, 2013 8:25 AM
17 Capacity of faculty to offer an enriching course, student interest, skills beingcovered and whether those same skills will be covered in the clinics
Feb 25, 2013 3:59 PM
18 Student interest, connection to clinic or concentration, writing opportunities, skillsbuilding, connection to the bar...
Feb 25, 2013 12:23 PM
19 Student demand, faculty teaching interests, career opportunities (so-called hotcareer areas), mix of choices offered during the same semester so that allcourses are not focused on same skills.
Feb 25, 2013 5:35 AM
20 student interest and which clinics are going forward. Feb 24, 2013 9:04 PM
21 student preference, extent of preparation provided for clinic/concentrations Feb 24, 2013 7:42 PM
22 Student demand over the past several years Current student interest The abilityfor students to be prepared for a variety of practice areas
Feb 24, 2013 6:36 PM
23 student interest, connection with clinics, courses that will attract students to theschool, (offer more with fewer students and have faculty teach another course)
Feb 24, 2013 5:55 PM
24 Whether there is a substantial writing requirement; whether it is - - - ORSHOULD BE - - - a prerequisite for a clinic; student demand
Feb 24, 2013 5:47 PM
25 We should rotate the seminars offered so they are not always the same one.We also need to look at whether or not there is a need for prerequisites for clinic,the amount and type of writing done in the course (since this is currently how wesatisfy the upper level writing requirement).
Feb 24, 2013 5:34 PM
26 1) Important to keep in mind that seminars should have legal-writing instructioncomponent, specifically content where a student produces writing based onoriginal legal research; 2) Because the majority of clinics are now non-litigationclinics, sufficient seminiars with litigation-related content should be offered, sostudents planning on taking non-litigation clinics can be advised that they canobtain in-depth litigaiton related material in 4th semester, if they plan to foregothat content in 3rd year.
Feb 24, 2013 5:27 PM
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Page 7, Q7. What factors should the Academic Dean and Clinic Dean take into consideration when determiningwhich clinics or concentrations to offer, realizing that we may need fewer clinics or concentrations depending theclass size?
1 Let me begin by asking if we are engaging in similar thinking about every pieceof our academic program? How many first-year lawyering seminars do weneed? How many sections of every class do we need? Shd we rethink our listof required classes in light of our reduced enrollment? What about movingclasses into different semesters? My point is that it should all be up forreassessment. As for the Clinics and Concentrations, my first vote would be tolet them be for a year or two as is. For a school that constantly touts its Clinicalprogram, and a school that is known for its clinical program, to reduce ournumber of clinical offerings comes at a price. Our reputation internally andexternally will suffer (students will be unhappy at the lack of choices and otherlaw schools will take note that we have cut our clinical offerings (and we didn'toffer all that many to begin with)). It is also the case that restarting a clinicif/when our enrollment goes up will not be so easy. Shutting a clinic means it willbe out of effective commission for some longer period of time than might seem. Irealize that there is a minimum number of students necessary to offer/maintain aclinic. I suggest that that number be lower than one might think of at first blush.
Mar 7, 2013 2:58 PM
2 faculty ability and availability; ensuring the "fundamentals" are covered (majorpractice areas); student preference (including by looking back to enrollment overpast ten years)
Mar 6, 2013 10:34 AM
3 The ones that tend to lead to employment opportunities and networks; the onesthat help students to build ties with the outside world, the ones that meet anneed that no other claw school clinical programs are meeting; the ones that givediverse practice-skills oriented training; the ones that combine several differentkinds of skills - policy, legislative, client representation, outreach; the ones thathave a potential to cross several topic areas
5 Fairness in teaching load. Requests by students. There is a tendency to favorclinics focusing on international issues and less on domestic issues.
Mar 3, 2013 7:55 PM
6 1. Community needs. 2.. Skills/direct representation - what are students doingin the clinic? Are they developing and practicing transferable skills? What is thequality of the clinic. NOTE - the ideal clinic size is 8 students and we have manycombined clinics. It seems unlikely that we have to reduce areas of practice.Areas that students may not gravitate to naturally - e.g. elder law, may providesome of the most important experiences. We could also use juvenile rightsclinic.
Mar 3, 2013 1:27 PM
7 faculty expertise, importance of live-client clinic experience, variety, studentinterest
Mar 2, 2013 7:34 PM
8 student faculty ratio (8:1 being the target), transferability of skills for the studentand student interest
Feb 28, 2013 11:46 AM
9 Whether there are jobs available in the clinic's subject/practice area, studentsinterest, manageability of the clinic experience, esp for students who must befocused on bar-related classes and prep at the same time as they are takingclinic,
Feb 28, 2013 10:48 AM
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Page 7, Q7. What factors should the Academic Dean and Clinic Dean take into consideration when determiningwhich clinics or concentrations to offer, realizing that we may need fewer clinics or concentrations depending theclass size?
10 Students should be surveyed. Feb 28, 2013 9:36 AM
11 student interest; curricular depth and breadth; likelihood of job placement. again,our curriculum is already narrow. to the extent possible, lets not make choicesthat limit it further.
Feb 27, 2013 9:49 PM
12 Seniority of faculty teaching the clinics (beacuse presumably that lines up withdepth of teaching experience and contacts with the local practice cmmunity);current enrollment requests (i.e. don't cut clinics or concentrations that get over-subscribed); any data we have about the fields in which CUNY grads areenrolled (if we have lots of crim defendse alums, that suggests we should keepour crim defense clinic)
Feb 27, 2013 5:17 PM
13 We should maintain a full offering of clinics and concentrations. That is the heartof the program and essential to distinguishing us and developing outstandingpublic interest lawyers.
Feb 27, 2013 1:14 PM
14 student interest; nature and range of experiences offered Feb 26, 2013 2:46 PM
15 Areas in which alums mostly practice, subject to faculty capabilities. Secondarily,offerings that are not extensively duplicated by other schools.
Feb 26, 2013 12:23 PM
16 Student demand, quality of program (look at teaching evaluations), availability ofjobs in the area.
Feb 26, 2013 8:26 AM
17 See if a particular clinic could convert to a lawyering seminar or a concentrationor other instructional form.
Feb 25, 2013 4:01 PM
18 Student interest. Feb 25, 2013 12:24 PM
19 Faculty interests and expertise, student demand, career opportunities, offering amix of both clinics and concentrations every year.
Feb 25, 2013 5:37 AM
20 student interest and ability for other faculty to teach or contribute elsewhere inthe program
Feb 24, 2013 9:05 PM
21 student preference, faculty expertise Feb 24, 2013 7:43 PM
22 Student demand over the past several years Current student interest The abilityfor students to be prepared for a variety of practice areas The ability of studentsto gain experience in a variety of practice areas
Feb 24, 2013 6:37 PM
23 Offer more with fewer students & let 1 faculty member teach another course. Ithink it would be a huge mistake to decrease offerings - caseloads have built up& will have to be staffed, these are not fungible classes & they influence ourmatriculating students
Feb 24, 2013 5:57 PM
24 Student demand, relationship to job placement Feb 24, 2013 5:47 PM
25 Connection to employment opportunities, strength of class to teach thecompetencies, student demand.
Feb 24, 2013 5:35 PM
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Page 7, Q7. What factors should the Academic Dean and Clinic Dean take into consideration when determiningwhich clinics or concentrations to offer, realizing that we may need fewer clinics or concentrations depending theclass size?
26 A litigation-related clinic/concentration experience is a more effective credentialfor securing post-graduate U.S. legal employment. It is also more consistentwith the idea articulated that our clinic program prepares graduates for lawpractice.
Feb 24, 2013 5:31 PM
Page 8, Q8. What is the minimum number of students who should be enrolled in an elective to allow that electiveto go forward?
1 15 Mar 2, 2013 7:35 PM
2 in a class of 100 (possibly . . ..) we need to allow small classes to go forward orstudents will not have the opportunity to learn about and explore some of thevery things that drew them to law school in the first place.
Feb 27, 2013 9:50 PM
3 That's my first instinct, but I'm not wedded to that number. Feb 27, 2013 5:18 PM
4 Ideally 8-10, but if a class that small goes forward the teacher should restructureit so that there is some real advantage to the students from such closesupervision.
Feb 25, 2013 4:03 PM
5 preferable to have smaller Lawyering and other required classes thanunderenrolled electives (assuming faculty would be willing to teachLawyering/required courses)
Feb 24, 2013 7:46 PM
6 They say 7 is the minimum for good group conversation - enough diversity andsmall enough to make sure everyone feels they must participate. with 8 one canbe missing and still be good. 10 is probably a better number but I would pick 8because it is big enough and we give students more diversity of offerings if weuse lower numbers.
Feb 24, 2013 6:00 PM
7 In general I think 10 works best though there will be times when as little as 8students work fine.
Feb 24, 2013 5:37 PM
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Page 9, Q9. What is the minimum number of students who should be enrolled in a bar elective or required courseto allow that course to go forward?
1 20 seems like a good number in terms of what can make for positive studentlearning. For classes of this type, if the minimum is smaller than 20, studentabsences can reduce the quality of student to student learning. It can be toosmall almost and then the learning is very teacher-oriented.
Mar 5, 2013 12:42 AM
2 I don't know. Mar 3, 2013 1:29 PM
3 again, if we have a small class overall, we need to allow smaller classes.Cancelling classes is very disruptive for students and conveys an impressionthat the school does not have its act together.
Feb 27, 2013 9:51 PM
4 We've got to keep our students well prepared for the bar. Feb 25, 2013 4:03 PM
5 The minimum number should be the same for all types of courses. Feb 25, 2013 5:39 AM
6 See prior comment. I would check the higher number but I think we want to offerpredictable offerings on these subjects so I would go for lower number
Feb 24, 2013 6:01 PM
7 However, there may be times when a students need the class (others filled) tograduate and a smaller section should be allowed to go forward. I cant reallyimagine a required class being scheduled when it didn't get more than 15students.
Feb 24, 2013 5:38 PM
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Page 10, Q10. What is the optimal size for lawyering seminar, and is there a difference between first and second-year lawyering in answering this question?
1 Optimal? 8:1 for all lawyering seminars. Mar 7, 2013 2:59 PM
2 assuming one faculty member Mar 6, 2013 10:35 AM
3 I don't think there's a difference in the optimal size for 1st and 2d lawyeringseminar. I think 16 about hits it right for this type of labor intensive class whenfirst-years are grappling with integrating analytical, written, and oral advocacyskills as well as interviewing, counseling, and negotiation skills. I think a classsize of 16 in the first semester makes sense as students are introduced to somuch that's new. In the second semester, 16 helps to ensure solidification,reinforcement as the level of expectation of professors increase.
Mar 5, 2013 12:46 AM
4 There is a difference between first and second-year lawyering. The size of thefirst year lawyering should be smaller than the second year since the secondstudents already have learned the basic legal knowledge. The first year lawstudents need more guidance, especially in legal writing.
Mar 3, 2013 8:01 PM
5 Even number and multiple of 4 is best for team projects. Mar 3, 2013 1:29 PM
6 15 for 1L seminar--because very writing-intensive for 2L seminar, could behigher
Mar 2, 2013 7:36 PM
7 For lawyering 15 would be fine but the even number makes group work run alittle more smoothly. First year Lawyering is a very time intensive course and thecredit allocation, number of class meetings and student enrollment numbers inno way reflect the time that goes into teaching these courses. This course alonecould easily be a full time workload.
Feb 28, 2013 11:52 AM
8 May depend on the subject matter or skills work of the 4th semester clinic. Forfirst year lawyering, 16 is an idea number, and allows the teacher do so muchmore individuated work with the students as they acquire basic legal analysisand writing skills. The investment in a smaller class will pay off in betterprepared students for the second year. If we have a smaller we should havefewer seminars of 20 students -- we should view the smaller class as anopportunity to provide more depth, and have as many seminars as we need tostick at 16 students.
Feb 28, 2013 10:53 AM
9 the difference between 15 and 18 (or 20 or more) for a first year lawyeringseminar is staggering in terms of faculty workload and the ability to give eachstudent detailed attention and feedback. Smaller than 15 is probably not a goodidea though. second-year lawyering seminar can probably be 18 without aproblem.
Feb 27, 2013 9:53 PM
10 The optimal size would probably be 14, but 16 is better than 15 because it'simportant to have an even number. I don't know enough to know if there's adifference between first and second-year lawyering in this respect.
Feb 27, 2013 5:19 PM
11 18 is a good size for 1st year seminar; 15 would be better for second yearbecause there's more individual attention need in the second year
Feb 26, 2013 2:47 PM
12 No difference. Feb 26, 2013 8:27 AM
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Page 10, Q10. What is the optimal size for lawyering seminar, and is there a difference between first and second-year lawyering in answering this question?
13 We used to do 20, but 16-18 seems fine since it allows for all students to getindividual attention.
Feb 25, 2013 4:04 PM
14 First-year lawyering needs to be smaller. Feb 25, 2013 7:23 AM
15 There is no difference in terms of class size between first and second yearlawyering seminars.
Feb 25, 2013 5:40 AM
16 Any writing-intensive and/or simulation-heavy course should be kept small topermit individualized assessment of multiple written assignments and/orvideotaped simulations. That said, for 2L Lawyering, student preference is veryimportant, so if faculty are willing to take more students (still under some cap)they shd have flexibility.
Feb 24, 2013 7:50 PM
17 I think first year should have lower number. first year students need moreindividual feedback. Much of the 2nd year lawyering seminar work can be donein group feedback- even the writing.
Feb 24, 2013 6:03 PM
18 What happened to 20? Feb 24, 2013 5:48 PM
19 Yes there is a difference. By fourth semester students do not need the intensiveone-on-one that first year students do and the classes can be larger - thoughwould still hope they remained below 22.
Feb 24, 2013 5:40 PM
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Page 11, Q11. What is the optimal enrollment for bar elective? If it depends on the class or the faculty member,please explain.
1 I do think it depends on the class and faculty member. Some faculty memberscan make a large class feel interactive through use of technology and smallgroup exercises. Also, the difficulty and dryness of the material will also make alarger class size feel more alienating, and easier to disengage from. I thinksmaller classes are the way to go if we have the resources but this is probablynot likely to be the case.
Mar 5, 2013 12:51 AM
2 It depends on the instructor's teaching style and the type of evaluative devicesbeing used. If the devices are purely multiple choices, then a large enrollmentmay be fine. Also, with MC exams, there are no written feedback provided to thestudents.
Mar 3, 2013 8:06 PM
3 I would actually have picked 35-45 if it were an option. I think it is crazy that wehave such big classes.
Feb 27, 2013 9:55 PM
4 I think you can get real participation/engagement with 25 or fewer students.After that there are few student questions.I think classes can be taught veryeffectively with 60+ students, but optimal would seem to be much smaller.
Feb 27, 2013 5:21 PM
5 I would hope that the enrollment would not be this low in our bar electives. But ifit is, the course should be offered anyway because our students need doctrinalliteracy in bar subjects.
Feb 25, 2013 4:06 PM
6 Once class size exceeds 30, there are too many students to ensure optimallearning.
Feb 25, 2013 5:44 AM
7 I do think 60 is different than 30 in terms of commanding attention of all students.I also think the class can be well taught and good learning can occur with 60 andabove. I would say that it depends on the learning goals that the curriculum hasfor that subject. Is it only teaching doctrine through traditional 2 tests evaluationdevices - then 60 and above will work fine.
Feb 24, 2013 6:10 PM
8 Depends upon the bar elective and whether it also includes a writingrequirement/option and how often it is offered.
Feb 24, 2013 5:49 PM
9 Depends on the faculty member's ability to engage the class and do more thanjust lecture. I think the academic dean should be able to determine this byreviewing teaching evaluations and talking to faculty. At times regardless ofwhat is optimal there will need to be large classes (over 60)
Feb 24, 2013 5:41 PM
10 Depends. Some "bar electives" are doctrinal classes which work well in 30-90student classes. Others which CUNY calls "bar electives", but which are reallymore reflective seminar type experiences such as First Amendment, are better inunder-30 enrollment.
Feb 24, 2013 5:33 PM
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Page 12, Q12. What is the optimal enrollment for first and second-year required classes? If it depends on theclass, the year of the students, or the faculty member, please explain.
1 While I say 30-60 I think a lot depends on the class and the faculty member.Some teachers can effectively teach to the entire class but that's not somethingwe all do effectively. So I think there are exceptions to this 30-60 being theoptimal size. I think when a teacher is teaching a required class for the first time,smaller is the way to go.
Mar 5, 2013 12:54 AM
2 It depends on the instructor's teaching style and the type of evaluative devicesbeing used. If the devices are purely multiple choices, then a large enrollmentmay be fine. Also, with MC exams, there are no written feedback provided to thestudents. Also, it would be a good idea to have more than one teacher teachinga required course. It provides students exposure to different teaching styles.
Mar 3, 2013 8:09 PM
3 Depends on the kind of feedback for the class. Generally smaller is better. Mar 3, 2013 1:34 PM
4 I would like to see us section the big requred classes so that we have twoclasses of 60 rather than one giant class of 120. students can hide in bigclasses, and the evidence is pretty clear that students learn better in smallerclasses.
Feb 27, 2013 9:56 PM
5 Smaller sections are optimal in an ideal world, not necessarily being realistic. Feb 26, 2013 12:26 PM
6 I just picked that number without a particular reason. 50 used to be a third of ourclass, now it looks like 60 will be half the class. Either size allows for a fairamount of student teacher interaction.
Feb 25, 2013 4:09 PM
7 Half the class or so Feb 24, 2013 9:06 PM
8 I think different teachers can teach larger groups better and worse. For myself Inotice a difference at about 40 or so students. With that number, I think it is lesseasy to hide & Greater percent of students can be engaged in each session. Afew years back, I surveyed students who preferred the 45 person classroom tothe 90 person classroom - that was in the old school. I did not survey them thisyear. I have never taught this class with under 30 - so I do not know what itwoudl be like to do that.
Feb 24, 2013 6:14 PM
9 It depends upon the class, the professor, and how the course is structured.Students need various experiences, including small, medium, and large classes.
Feb 24, 2013 5:50 PM
10 Depends on the faculty member's ability to engage the class and do more thanjust lecture. I think the academic dean should be able to determine this byreviewing teaching evaluations and talking to faculty. At times regardless ofwhat is optimal there will need to be large classes (over 60). There is also theneed to have students be in different size classes and optimally be in at leastone very large class so they can see how they are doing in regards to theirpeers.
Feb 24, 2013 5:42 PM
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Page 13, Q13. Should first-year students be placed in classes of varying size? If so, what should be taken intoaccount when selecting class size, other than room availability?
1 Ideally, stating the obvious, students would be in small(er) classes. At aminimum, there should be at least one "substantive" class offered in a (very)small section.
Mar 7, 2013 3:00 PM
2 Every student should have at least one of their required 1st year courses in asmall group setting (max 20 students).
Mar 6, 2013 10:36 AM
3 I think first-years should feel they have an equivalent education experience.Varying size affects availability of the professor, quality of feedback, nature ofthe work assigned, quality of student contribution and participation.
Mar 5, 2013 12:55 AM
4 It may be good to give them classes of different size, although we might want toconsider so that some students don't have all large classes while others have allsmall classes.
Mar 4, 2013 4:30 PM
5 Unclear in the intent or purpose of the question if room availability is not theissue.
Mar 3, 2013 8:11 PM
6 Every students should have some small classes. Mar 3, 2013 1:34 PM
7 we should consider faculty work load, faculty preference, and student needs. tothe extent possible, each student should have one of their required classes in arelatively small section (1/4 of the class rather than 1/2)
Feb 27, 2013 9:57 PM
8 They should definitely have a small class, so they have some place where theyfeel seen and taken care of. But I think they should also have at least one largelecture class so they get that experience too which will prepare them for 2L and3L year.
Feb 27, 2013 5:22 PM
9 Small section of doctrinal class would be helpful for all, but especially studentswho had difficulty in their first semester.
Feb 26, 2013 8:28 AM
10 That's almost automatic as long as we have lawyer seminar. We can't teach thewhole class in units of 20 and we can't have a lawyering seminar of more than20.
Feb 25, 2013 4:10 PM
11 I think there is generally a benefit to having at least one smaller class, but at thisschool where they spend so much time in seminar, I don't think its necessary.
Feb 25, 2013 2:15 PM
12 Students should have a variety of experiences. However, more than 80 or sostudents I think is generally too big for any class.
Feb 25, 2013 12:26 PM
13 I don't think it's necessary, no. Feb 25, 2013 7:25 AM
14 First year students should have a mixture of small, medium, and large (but nottoo large) class experiences. Faculty teaching ability, including the ability toteach to large classes, is a crucial factor. Availability of academic support forlarge classes is another crucial factor.
Feb 25, 2013 5:55 AM
15 not sure Feb 24, 2013 9:06 PM
16 Faculty preference Feb 24, 2013 6:38 PM
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Page 13, Q13. Should first-year students be placed in classes of varying size? If so, what should be taken intoaccount when selecting class size, other than room availability?
17 I think generally smaller is better. I would ID smaller classes for the linkedlawyering seminars. I would also assess the quality of teaching/learning in thelarge classroom - again some teachers can do this better than others.Community building occurs when all students take at least one class together. Ifnot I would scramble sections in second semester so that students get to knoweach other.
Feb 24, 2013 6:17 PM
18 The professor and teaching ability/style; the structure, demands, and goals of thecourse; the overall variety of the students' experience
Feb 24, 2013 5:52 PM
19 Yes, being able to interact as a large group is important and it is also importantnot to be completely siloed in their sections. Being in at least one large classallows them to see how they are doing in regard to their peers and the large andsmall classes provides provides a range of different environments in which theymust learn to participate. Multiple types of classes, sizes of classes, assessmentdevices are better.
Feb 24, 2013 5:46 PM
20 Seminars should be 20 students or less; Doctrinal classes should be 60-120;legal research classes should be around 60 so that teaching resources can bedeployed to more in-depth legal writing opportunities in the 3rd semester orabove.
Feb 24, 2013 5:36 PM
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Page 14, Q14. Should we as faculty reconsider the requirement of requiring at least two assessment devices inour classes?
1 I think having one's grade rest only on one assessment is a throwback to howalienating legal education has been traditionally, and reinforces the idea of yousink or swim. The notion of improvement, feedback, and that some people dobetter at different types of testing still are good arguments for retaining therequirement of at least two assessment devices.
Mar 5, 2013 12:58 AM
2 We should revisit the requirement so we can determine whether to continue therequirement.
Mar 3, 2013 8:13 PM
3 But we should talk more a bout how to do that without overburdening thestudents.
Feb 28, 2013 10:54 AM
4 the requirement has become burdensome on students. at one extreme, someprofessors use attendance (which is required anyway) as a second device--rendering the requirement meaningless. at the other extreme, students areburdened by too many midterms that disrupt the heart of the semester--the verytime they should be hitting their stride in their classes and really grappling withthe complexities of doctrine, theory and practice, they are instead crazily trying toprep for tests.
Feb 27, 2013 9:59 PM
5 I think 2 is a good idea - but we should reconsider the practice of having morethan 2.
Feb 27, 2013 5:23 PM
6 But midterms should be coordinated by someone and faculty should cooperateso that array of evaluative devices at mid-semester and at the end of thesemester make sense and, as a whole, are not overwhelming.
Feb 26, 2013 8:31 AM
7 It's not the number, it's the type. In class midterms have taken over. Feb 25, 2013 4:11 PM
8 I think generally it is beneficial to have more than one testing device (esp. if theytest the students on material in different ways) but I don't think it should berequired.
Feb 25, 2013 2:16 PM
9 Instead of reconsidering the requirement we should consider devices other thanquizzes and midterms.
Feb 25, 2013 5:58 AM
10 not sure Feb 24, 2013 9:06 PM
11 Maybe - Especially in second & third year. I would still encourage faculty to atleast do formative assessment so students could know how they are doing. Iwould continue to do quizzes
Feb 24, 2013 6:19 PM
12 I think we need to be careful, I think two assessment devices (perhaps 3) worksbest but I do recognize the problems around midterms. Not sure what theanswer is but would certainly not want only one final exam. However, anythingmore than 15 percent of a grade at midterms creates a lot of student anxiety.
Feb 24, 2013 5:49 PM
13 [This answer has been edited to remove information that identified aparticular professor.] Test anxiety has become so pervasive that it isunquestionably counter-productive. Students are exhausted, and almost allopportunity for reflection on course material has been displaced by the shadowof midterms and finals. There is also a very disruptive effect on many classes
Feb 24, 2013 5:42 PM
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Page 14, Q14. Should we as faculty reconsider the requirement of requiring at least two assessment devices inour classes?
when teachers of “high stakes” classes deviate from the suggested midterm exam dates. Students should have no more than two mid-terms. This learning environment would begreatly improved, and students would not live in a state of perpetual test stress beginningin their 1L year.
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Page 15, Q15. Should we as a faculty encourage the use of more than one type of assessment metric in ourclasses, e.g. multiple choice questions, essay questions, reflection papers, class participation, etc.?Alternatively, should faculty be encouraged to give the same kind of assessment device to give studen...
1 I confess to vacillating on these issues. Mar 7, 2013 3:02 PM
2 Assessment devices are so idiosyncratic to the teacher that I don't think that justbecause we all give multiple choice questions, students will get better at doingmultiple choice questions. In doctrinal classes, some combination of multiplechoice and written essay questions makes sense in terms of exposure.
Mar 5, 2013 1:01 AM
3 I think it works by leaving it up to individual faculty because the students will endup with different experiences that way.
Mar 4, 2013 4:31 PM
4 It depends on the course - whether the course is training student to take bar-typeexamination or to handle projects in a legal work environment.
Mar 3, 2013 8:17 PM
5 Either is fine. Mar 3, 2013 1:35 PM
6 faculty should have a choice of assessment devices. classparticipation/professionalism should not count as an "assessment device" but asbaseline requirements for a passing grade
Mar 2, 2013 7:38 PM
7 It depends on the the nature of the course. In required doctrinal courses and barelectives I think students should be given the option to elect one metric or many.This might even encourage students to identify their learning styles earlier. Forskills related classes, writing classes and clinics this would not make sensebecause students must be provided with multiple opportunities to practicedeveloping professional competence and integrating skills; there is no final examin practice.
Feb 28, 2013 12:00 PM
8 The use of more than one type of assessment metric should be encouraged. Feb 28, 2013 9:38 AM
9 i don't see the need for a policy. different courses lend themselves to differentevaulative devices. lets just trust the faculty to be professionals who care aboutstudent learning.
Feb 27, 2013 10:00 PM
10 Yes and yes. We should asses students using at least two metrics (like multiplechoice and essay) and do that assesment at least twise (so that students aren'tgetting feedback on their effectiveness with multiple choice and essay for thefirst time on the final)
Feb 27, 2013 5:24 PM
11 Varied assessment devices to measure lawyering skills Feb 27, 2013 1:18 PM
12 Different types of assessment is good. Feb 26, 2013 2:48 PM
13 Yes. I favor both experimentation and faculty collaboration to continually improveassessment in particular and teaching generally.
Feb 26, 2013 12:27 PM
14 Should be coordinated so overall students get exposed to all across classes. Feb 26, 2013 8:32 AM
15 I think there already is some variation, but not consistently over all classes. Feb 25, 2013 4:12 PM
16 Generally more than one type is probably preferable, but some could feel that anassessment that is more closely aligned with testing material in a way moreclosely aligned with skills needed in practice.
Feb 25, 2013 2:18 PM
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Page 15, Q15. Should we as a faculty encourage the use of more than one type of assessment metric in ourclasses, e.g. multiple choice questions, essay questions, reflection papers, class participation, etc.?Alternatively, should faculty be encouraged to give the same kind of assessment device to give studen...
17 I think variety is fine, since students can develop mastery over the course oftime, assuming students will encounter all basic types of assessment deviceseventually.
Feb 25, 2013 12:27 PM
18 No. Let the teacher decide what works best. Feb 25, 2013 7:26 AM
19 More than one type. Feb 25, 2013 5:59 AM
20 same kind should be given so students can practice Feb 24, 2013 9:07 PM
21 A variety of assessment devices in one class is useful so that students have anopportunity to develop in multiple areas and will not be overly penalized if theyare weak in one area. It would be good for there to be an overall sense ofdevelopment and mastery in certain assessment devices but students find adisconnect across classes even when they are the same type of device. So forthis to work, faculty must agree to use the same structure and provide the sameinstructions for the assessment tools they use.
Feb 24, 2013 6:46 PM
22 Mastery of what? all of these assessment devices allow students to developskills. Just because you do more of the same does not mean there will bemastery. Mastery requires feedback, reflection, feedback rewrites, etc - thisdoes not happen. Our students take more essay tests than most law studentsand they still need essay prep in 3rd year and in bar mentoring.
Feb 24, 2013 6:21 PM
23 Different types, but practice (low stakes) also. Feb 24, 2013 5:52 PM
24 I think that multiple types of assessment in each class is best because providesmore accurate feedback on their abilities. However, to develop mastery(especially in MC questions) perhaps all faculty should consider having someportion of their assessments be through MC questions.
Feb 24, 2013 5:51 PM
25 Different classes are different. It should be up to teachers. Feb 24, 2013 5:43 PM
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Page 16, Q16. Should faculty who are teaching the same subject during the same semester work together toensure that coverage, approach to assessment, and final grading ranges and averages are similar?
1 To the extent possible, sure. As a strict requirement, no. I guess it depends onwhat we mean by "work together."
Mar 7, 2013 3:03 PM
2 Not necessarily. I don't think students should have the expectation that twoteachers teaching the same course have to cover things similarly or the samematerial in the same sequence. Two teachers may well have very differentphilosophies about coverage, teaching pedagogy, and testing. I think, however,it is useful to see if the final grading ranges and averages are similar.
Mar 5, 2013 1:04 AM
3 It should not be required. Faculty should be able to do what they believe is bestfor teaching the course. In most cases, I would encourage faculty to have somecommunication at a minimum, but putting any type of requirement like this wouldresult in mediocre teaching.
Mar 4, 2013 4:32 PM
4 But the individual teacher still has academic control over his/her class. Mar 3, 2013 8:18 PM
5 If they want to. Parity in grading ranges is silly with such small numbers. It isperfectly possible that one section is demonstrably stronger than another. It'sgood to work together on coverage but it's very labor intensive.
Mar 3, 2013 1:37 PM
6 not unless they want to Mar 2, 2013 7:39 PM
7 I don't like the call of this question. I am not sure these faculty members need toactually work together in teaching the course but there should be dialogue andmostly agreement about what gets covered. And, while I do think that studentsshould get evaluated similarly; this is not the same thing as saying the approachto assessment can't be different. I also don't think this is the same thing assaying the grading rangers and averages should be similar since every professorgets different students.This having been said, it would be fair for students tounderstand what kind of work is A work or B work or C work in a courseregardless of who is teaching it. Does everyone uses grading rubrics that theydistribute to students so they understand this?
Feb 28, 2013 12:09 PM
8 this obsession with lock step sends a very bad message to the students. most ofthe classes they are taking are surveys--the professor must pick and chooseamong a range of topics that are integral to the subject. when we insist thatcourses cover exactly the same material we convey that there is a "right" way toteach and a "wrong" way to teach or that there is a right version of the courseand a wrong version. It also makes it very difficult for more than one professor toteach some key classes. as a result, we have rediculously large classes forsome required courses.
Feb 27, 2013 10:03 PM
9 I don't think they should HAVE to, but I can't imagine NOT doing so. Feb 27, 2013 5:24 PM
10 This is a basic requirement of fairness to students. Feb 26, 2013 12:28 PM
11 If they want to, but I see no need to require it. Feb 26, 2013 8:32 AM
12 Different coverage and text books are OK, but ranges and averages are a schoolwide grading issue, not one to cabin off between a few teachers.
Feb 25, 2013 4:14 PM
13 In very broad terms, yes, in that if two versions of the same course have wildly Feb 25, 2013 2:21 PM
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Page 16, Q16. Should faculty who are teaching the same subject during the same semester work together toensure that coverage, approach to assessment, and final grading ranges and averages are similar?
different coverage and one seems to always work out to a B- average, while theother is A- average, that is problematic.
14 I don't think the coverage and approach to assessment needs to be consistent,but I do think there's value in coordinating about grade ranges and averages.
Feb 25, 2013 12:28 PM
15 It's not even necessary for first-year lawyering seminars. The emphasis onuniformity is unnecessary and stifling.
Feb 25, 2013 7:27 AM
16 grading ranges should be similar Feb 24, 2013 9:07 PM
17 Yes to coverage but similar grading ranges and averages may accurately reflectthe learning in the class. Classes are not evenly divided by talent or hard workor size and so we should expect modest differences in performance.Approaches to assessment mirror course priorities and should be set by theteacher. I think curriculum committee could assign to a particular course aparticular learning goal - that could be reflected in the assessment.
Feb 24, 2013 6:26 PM
18 This should also occur across subjects. Feb 24, 2013 5:53 PM
19 Yes - Once we got this started it should not be that hard to make it work. Feb 24, 2013 5:52 PM
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Page 17, Q17. If you answered yes to Question 16, would you be willing to work together in this way, even if itmeant additional meetings?
1 It depends on whether the meetings contribute or detract from the time spent onthe class in a way that helps or hurts the class.
Mar 4, 2013 4:33 PM
2 But these meetings need to be well-structured and targeted. Mar 3, 2013 8:19 PM
3 depends on whether I ultimately retain the choice to do some things differently ifI choose
Mar 2, 2013 7:40 PM
4 I do not agree with standardizing classes and would be very reluctant toparticipate. I am more willing to think about standardizing grading thanstandardizing coverage. with regard to grading, i think there is a case to bemade that faculty divergences are unfair to students. however, i would notsupport any kind of rigid curve that did not allow for truly exceptional classes (ineither direction)
Feb 27, 2013 10:05 PM
5 I answered no to #16 but I would always be willing to work together this way.But sometimes it's less about meetings, which can be make-work, and moreabout being in touch by email and checking in with each other before finalzingquizzes or grades.
Feb 27, 2013 5:26 PM
6 If another teacher is teaching a course in a manner that is similar to mine, I haveno problem collaborating. However, if an experienced teacher is using a differentapproach, I don't see the point.
Feb 26, 2013 8:33 AM
7 grading is school wide issue Feb 25, 2013 4:15 PM
8 I've done this. Is if fun? no. Is it ultimately better for students and school? I thinkyes.
Feb 25, 2013 2:22 PM
9 Yes, about grade ranges. Not about doctrine. Feb 25, 2013 12:28 PM
10 see answer above - not that hard it doesnt have to be by consensus Feb 24, 2013 5:53 PM
11 Additional meetings are our job. Feb 24, 2013 5:44 PM
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Page 18, Q18. Should the Academic Dean assign first, second, and third-year coordinators to help ensure a moreconsistent classroom experience for our students?
1 I really don't think this is realistic or possible, What's meant by "consistentclassroom experience?" I think we can take the student evaluations of teachersmore seriously. Might be helpful for faculty to collectively reaffirm certain corequalities or characteristics in a classroom that are important and then for us to beevaluated by students along those lines. Maybe this means using the studentevals more than we do for reflection.
Mar 5, 2013 1:08 AM
2 It depends on who are the coordinators and what are their tasks. They need tobe able to listen and work with different personalities. The coordinators cannotafford to be judgmental or rigid and need to allow the individual teacher to haveacademic control over her/his class.
Mar 3, 2013 8:25 PM
3 Don't know. Probably but do we have resources? Mar 3, 2013 1:37 PM
4 consistent classroom experience is not necessarily required; students mustrealize that individual faculty retain autonomy and cannot run identical classroomexperiences
Mar 2, 2013 7:41 PM
5 again, i think our focus on consistency is a mistake. each class covers a widerange of topics. the professors must pick and choose among the appropriate andrelevant topics because there is not enough time to cover them all. i see noreason to try to force uniformity on that process
Feb 27, 2013 10:06 PM
6 I don't quite know what this means. However, I don't think the experience needsto be consistent as long as it is good.
Feb 27, 2013 5:26 PM
7 but faculty should meet in these groups periodically. Feb 26, 2013 12:28 PM
8 I don't see the point of a third year coordinator since all clinics andconcentrations are different, and that is as it should be. We had first and secondyear coordinators, which was a good idea, but some faculty were unwilling tomake changes to their individual courses to accomplish institutional goals, so weeventually gave up.
Feb 26, 2013 8:40 AM
9 Not sure what you are looking for. In the past year co-ordinators helped managesimulations and workload within each year. But that's when we had a differentstructure to the program.
Feb 25, 2013 4:16 PM
10 I hope this is unnecessary as the last thing we need is more layers ofcoordination and even more meetings.
Feb 25, 2013 2:24 PM
11 But only because the way these coordinators would ensure a consistentexperience (whatever that means) is not clear.
Feb 25, 2013 7:28 AM
12 This has not worked in the past, but it would be good to try again. Feb 24, 2013 5:53 PM
13 Would ask that perhaps the coordinators be given a course release or committeerelease and that it would circulate between people.
Feb 24, 2013 5:53 PM
14 Yes. However, the 3rd year coordinator should not be a clinician. It should be afaculty member who harmonizes the clinic component with the main event of 3Lyear, which is preparing for the bar.
Feb 24, 2013 5:45 PM
49 of 49
Page 19, Q19. If you answered yes to Question 18, would you be willing to participate in the coordination of theprogram, even if that meant additional meetings?
1 It depends on the definition of coordination of the program. Mar 3, 2013 8:26 PM
2 If teaching load were otherwise reduced. Mar 3, 2013 1:38 PM
3 I answered no Feb 27, 2013 10:06 PM
4 I'm willing to participate in anything, but I don't see the need for it. Feb 27, 2013 5:27 PM
5 Already do in first year. Feb 25, 2013 4:17 PM
6 If it truly is necessary, yes, of course. But something tells me you'd end up withteachers who don't need this coordination meeting showing up and engagingand those that might be the reason why coordination would necessary lessengaged so that it ends up a waste.
Feb 25, 2013 2:26 PM
7 Although I answered no, I'd be willing to participate if we decided as a faculty togo that route.
Feb 25, 2013 12:29 PM
8 Again, not that hard, we are not trying to reach consensus just generally figuringout how to present the program consistently.
Feb 24, 2013 5:54 PM
9 Additional meetings are our job. Feb 24, 2013 5:45 PM
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