Fiona Preston-Whyte · 1 Fiona Preston-Whyte From: Fiona Preston-Whyte Sent: 17 December 2013 08:41...

1

Fiona Preston-Whyte

From: Fiona Preston-WhyteSent: 17 December 2013 08:41 AMTo: 'Roslyn Lindley'Cc: Marion MengellSubject: RE: SRVM Invitation Public Meeting Focus Group meeting, in relation to the

proposed Volspruit Opencast PGM Mine EIAAttachments: SRVM IAP Focus group.pdf

Dear Roslyn Lindley, I do apologies for the two emails sent out regarding this. The first email did contain the venue and times, a decision was made to not reattached the pdf in the second email which corrected the date. I do apologies for that. I have reattached the pdf here, regarding the time and venue. I will bare your comments in mind regarding future communique. Regards, Fiona

EScience Associates (Pty) Ltd E‐mail: [email protected] Web: www.escience.co.za Tel: +27 (0)11 718 6380 Fax: 0866 106 703 PO Box 2950, Saxonwold, 2132 9 Victoria Street, Oaklands, Johannesburg, 2192

From: Roslyn Lindley [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 13 December 2013 03:27 PM To: Fiona Preston-Whyte Cc: Marion Mengell Subject: Re: SRVM Invitation Public Meeting Focus Group meeting, in relation to the proposed Volspruit Opencast PGM Mine EIA Dear Sirs/Mesdames Great! even with corrected dates, there are no times, no venue! Hell of an unprofessional invitation for me to diarise, date and get one's schedule in order. Sorry to be so abrupt. But ......... I am a little peeved at all the flurry of e-mails and so many mistakes. Please try your utmost NOT to send me two e-mails of every communique. Thank you.

2

Regards Ros Lindley Friends of Nylsvley On 12 Dec 2013, at 7:35 PM, Fiona Preston-Whyte wrote:

Dear Stakeholder/ Interested and Affected Party RE: EIA Report – Proposed Establishment of an Open Cast PGM Mine on the farm Volspruit 326 KR and the farm Zoetveld 294 KR, Mokopane District, Limpopo Province Dear Sir/Madam, The purpose of this letter is twofold, firstly, to inform you of important upcoming dates in the above mentioned process. Secondarily, to invite you, and/or the organisation that you represent, to a Mokopane Public Participation meeting on Thursday the 23de January 2013 and a Mookgopong Public Participation meeting on Friday the 24th January 2013. Please find the official letter and invitation attached. Regards, Fiona Preston‐Whyte <image001.png> EScience Associates (Pty) Ltd E‐mail: [email protected] Web: www.escience.co.za Tel: +27 (0)11 718 6380 Fax: 0866 106 703 PO Box 2950, Saxonwold, 2132 9 Victoria Street, Oaklands, Johannesburg, 2192

<SRVM IAP Public meeting.pdf> Roslyn Ambler Lindley 42 Arnold Road Irene 0062 South Africa +27 12 667 2741 +27 84 449 5222

3

1

Fiona Preston-Whyte

From: Fiona Preston-WhyteSent: 10 October 2013 08:58 AMTo: Theo FischerCc: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected];

[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; Michael Benjamin

Subject: SRVM-meeting minuetsAttachments: SRVM_Meeting_minuets_04102013_FPW2.docx

To Whom it may concern, Please find attached the meeting minuets from Friday 4th October 2013. This meeting was held due to the proposed Sylvania Resources Volspruit Mine. Please note that the audio recordings of the meeting are in the process of being transcribed. Regards, Fiona Preston‐Whyte


1

Fiona Preston-Whyte

From: Fiona Preston-WhyteSent: 17 January 2014 05:43 PMTo: Theo FischerCc: Fiona Preston-Whyte ([email protected])Subject: SRVM Meeting minuets to a EIA Focus Group meeting, in relation to the proposed

Volspruit opencast PGM mine EIA - 29th NovemberAttachments: SRVM_29112013_proper2_revised_no_comments.pdf; attendence register.pdf

TrackingTracking: Recipient Delivery Read

Theo Fischer Delivered: 2014/01/17 05:43 PM Read: 2014/01/17 05:49 PM

Fiona Preston-Whyte ([email protected])

Delivered: 2014/01/17 05:43 PM

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'Lukie Steenkamp'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'Jan Klopper'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'Sandy Emmerich'

'Janlo Möller'

'Abbas Shaker'

'Mogalakwena PMU'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

2

Recipient Delivery Read

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

3


'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

4


'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

'[email protected]'

Dear Stakeholders, With reference to the below email, this correspondance is regarding the proposed Vospruit opencast Mine. Specifically, the affected farmer/landowner/conservation/community Focus Group Meeting which occurred on the 29th November 2013. Due to various comments and requests, the minutes have been revised. Please find attached the revised minutes. Regards, Fiona Preston‐Whyte


From: Fiona Preston-Whyte Sent: 10 December 2013 08:56 AM To: Theo Fischer Cc: Fiona Preston-Whyte ([email protected]) Subject: SRVM Meeting minuets to a EIA Focus Group meeting, in relation to th eproposed Volspruit opencast PGM mine EIA - 29th November Dear Stakeholders, Please find attached the minuets from the affected farmer/landowner/conservation/community Focus Group meeting for the proposed Volspruit opencast mine. This meeting was held on the 29th November 2013. As requested, please also find attached a copy of the power point presentation presented at said meeting. Please note that the error on the graph title has been fixed. Also attached is the attendance register. Please note that these minuets are been sent to everyone on the landowner focus group section of the interested and affected parties list, not just those who attended this meeting.

5

In my following email, I will also be sending the audio of this meeting. Please note that it is in the process of being transcribed. Regards, Fiona Preston‐Whyte


SRVM

Meeting minutes (Revised)

29 November 2013

Focus group meeting

Attendees:

See attached attendance register

Minutes

Programme

– welcome

– Previous minutes – will address questions raised at the last meeting

– Three presentations – 3 questions after each presentation

– Open floor questions

Anton De Vos is called on to answer previous minute questions

1) The date of submission of the mining application makes the process appear to be

engineered. Why was there no communication regarding the resubmission (at the time of

submission).

A) Allegation made, appears that the time of submission was engineered to fall with in

December. This wasn’t the intention, the previous mining right was withdrawn, changes

made and then lodged as soon as it was ready. Not engineered.

2) Does the mine plan on bringing ore from alternative mines? (joint ventures etc.)

Will the smelter and tailings be used for other mines, at this site?

Why would such a small mine have a smelter?

A) Mr De Vos does not know if Sylvania plans on bringing in ore from other mines. It is

possible, it may happen in the future.

A) Regarding the Smelter. The grade of the ore that can be mined on this site is 40 grams

per ton. The standard smelter accepts 100 grams per ton, therefore the standard smelter

will not accept this raw material. That is why Sylvania wants to build one here.

A) The presence of the refinery is due to the large nickel content

3) How will neighbouring properties be compensated? Want a legal document outlining the

compensation and mitigation of ALL losses

– Require this, because a model is being used rather than conclusive evidence. Huge risk.

If Sylvania is convinced the model is sufficient, then they must be prepared to cover

ALL losses experienced by the community.

A) The law states that if you cause unlawful damage to anyone else’s property, you are

responsible to make good. The Mine will do so.

Theo Fisher is called on to answer some of the previous minutes questions

4) The communicative impacts need to be considered. Implications if Grassvalley becomes

operational need to be considered

A) This is being looked at. Mr Fischer can present some limited information at the moment. Mr

Fischer makes a commitment that it will be addressed, can’t give more information right

now.

Questions on minutes

Q) The proposal is to put the smelter in this critical area, why can’t the smelter be allocated

to another area?

Q) In relation to the legal side (compensation). When you are considering something like

taking someone’s water away, it has to be remembered that the mine is big, the farmer

is small. This should be set out and settled before hand.

A) By Theo Fisher

– In relation to the smelter – valid point, will present information on infrastructure.

Discussion and presentation on this will occur later.

– In relation to the water comments - competition for water is an old argument. The

statement on the size and the strength of the mine is noted -it is a fact. Need to

recognise that other water users have rights. The water act highlights the ecological

right, as well aswater needs of communities, agriculture and Mining. Issue of water

is such that it has to be managed by a process involving all stakeholders (This should

be ade before the mine starts)

– Q) agreement must be made before hand – the community is asking that when (if)

the mine starts-everything is fixed. Can there not be an agreement before hand, on

how the mine will handle its response (e.g. so that a situation such as in Rustenburg

does not happen here) –

– A) by Theo Fischer - doesn’t have exact answer, but in agreement that there need to

be a formalised mechanism that can handle disputes independently

– Q) Community wantsan agreement upfront – how to deal with complaints, how to

deal with the process.

The above in yellow was mentioned in previous meetings. This is a problem that has been raised for

the last year.

1) NEW Question – in future – minutes will get printed for the next meeting – can distribute to

whole focus meeting – need to get minutes to everyone in focus group, not just those

attending the meetings.

2) New question – Mr Honiball

– certain things were agreed to at previous meeting regarding protocol, however

these were disregarded with meeting request sent yesterday (28th November 2013).

– The “obstructive comment” in the mentioned email were not appreciated

– Theo Fischer suggested a new protocol, yesterday. But there has been an agreed

upon and set out protocol from April 2013. The consultant cannot just,

independently, attempt to change the protocol.

– Allegation by consultant, stated in an email yesterday, that Mr Honiball choses to

send only bits of information to his clients.

– Also regarding the number of comments made (260 comments), the consultant

requested that these be kept short. Are we (as the public) limited to the number of

comments?- that implies that it is not a free comment period.

– Consultant should not make such comments.

– Still don’t know when the mining right was lodged- we still do not have this

information. It is a simple question – this highlights that Asked Questions are not

being answered.

– Still hasn’t been answered how the 180 days were calculated?

– Request that the minute recordings be transcribed – as information is sometimes

omitted in the minutes

– Vigorously object to the fact the data is found wanting with regard to the flood

event. The consultant is using simulated data. Object to simulated data (past experts

stated the need to observe a flood event, based on this, the community objects to

the use of simulated data

Summary by facilitator

– need a protocol – refers to communication to property owners.

– Theo Fischer want to ask the property owner as well – as he accuses Mr Honiball of

not passing on. The facilitator asks to Parkthis question till the end (This was never

reopened or readdressed).

– There is no limited number of comments that can be made in public participation.

Mr Fischer must remember that all comments that come through Mr Honiball are a

collection of comments from numerous parties.

Mr Knight leaves the meeting in frustration – regarding the limited number of questions (3)

allowed between sections.

Hilary Knight

– Highlights to the facilitator that this is a sign of the level of frustration which the

community has reached. That throughout this process a pattern has emerged: Mr

Fischer takes to the floor, doesn’t fully answer questions; making the meetings one

sided.

Mr Fischer will now present three presentations, 15 minutes each:

Presentation 1: progress made in hydrology in the ground water model.

At this point Hilary Knight requests that for all future presentations that the slides are printed

out with place to make notes on the side

This presentation is essentially Gieps du Toits presentation (he is overseas and cannot present

himself).

Two graphs are shown:

– Scenario A (top graph) is the best case scenario: with grouting, no faults

– Scenario B (bottom graph) is the worst case scenario: no grouting, with faults;

therefor showing maximum dewatering.

Comment from Audience:

This is a ridiculous model, it is not based on reality, it is not near the real situation

Mr Fischer continues

– Scenario B – shows a large area of the Nyl system to be substantially undercut

– Ground water abstraction from the two pits in the two scenarios – it is believed that

the reality will be between the two scenarios (about 1 mega litre per day).

– The model is based on the WRM 2000 model (Dr Pitman Model). This is an

internationally recognised model previously used to model the Nyl catchment. This

model breaks the Nyl catchment into sub catchments. It has been calibrated against

hydrographs.

o Hydrographs measure stream flow

o There are a number of hydrographs positioned throughout the Nyl

o The catchment model/hydrographs do have weaknesses – there are

areas were the model shows flow but the hydrographs do not.

o The upper catchment is modelled very well (good calibration between

model and hydrographs)

o Dr Pitman is once again looking at the quality assessment for the use of

the model in this project

o This model looks at surface flow, but, it does take into account other

water factors such as groundwater, evapotranspiration etc.

o This is a catchment model which interacts the surface, ground,

evapotranspiration, storage and extraction

o The model is applied here for surface water and groundwater

interaction

o The hydrographs used here are located just below the N1 bridge

o So what is the input: model and observed flow of the river (2005

hydrograph data)

o The model over estimates – the hydrographs here are also a problem as

hydrographs battle to measure the shallow, wide flows. This factor

doesn’t lend the hydrographs to perfect verification

Minutes will be accompanied with presentation for this meeting

o The model and the hydrographs compare fairly well

Mr Fischer explains the graphs again

– The graph shown at this point shows the total flow (volume) of water 2005 to 2009

at the outlet of the vlei

o Monthly flow is on the x- axis

o Important to note that the model over predicts the floods by about

7.5%. This over prediction may be an artefact of the hydrographs or by

the model

o This is an improvement on the previous study

– This model allows for a comprehensive water balance over the catchment

o Used to model the Nyl from the 1950’s to present

o This model allows one to model the Nyl in three states:

1) its virgin state

2) current state

3) possible state if mine goes through

o The virgin state – zero abstraction. It is noteworthy that groundwater

evaporation (associated with vegetation) is quite high. Shows a small

groundwater outflow

o Using an extraction rate of 0.5 for town, and 6 mega litre for agriculture

(this agriculture extraction rate is an assumption which aligns with the

Department of Water Affairs figures). However, it is believed that

current extraction might be closer to 8 mega litres

It is very important to note that the transpiration rate decreases

This states that the ground water is currently such that fewer

plants can reach the water

– So, how does the mine affect this?

o Ground water assumptions are based on both experience and literature

– To answer the above question, two models were used. A larger catchment model is

being used which informs the groundwater model.

– The larger model was used to improve the groundwater model with the following

information

o 1) recharge

o 2) evapotranspiration

o 3) extraction

– What data is the model based on?

o 1) Water Affairs Data Base

o 2) Existing water affairs model for Nyls vlei (this is an independent

model

o 3) Areas under irrigation, crops grown – typical figures used

Audience:

The boreholes – it is known that the above data is inaccurate across South Africa

Mr Fischer – this is a valid point, will return to it at the end (this point was not returned

to)

(back to presentation)

– Model shows:

o Virgin state

o Current state

o Proposed mining state

– The dewatering data will be returned to the parent model (as the larger catchment

model cannot model ground watering dewatering

– Ground water model cannot model the catchment (due to large area and computing

power)

– The groundwater model will be used to feed back into the catchment model

– Currently, the groundwater is drawing on neighbouring catchments

– These modelling tools are not yet perfect. They have not been honed yet. But the

tools are there

–

………………………….

Presentation 2 – Mine dynamic water balance (also by Mr Fischer)

– This looks at how much water the mine would require

– This looks at the mines use of water from day 1

– One Dose not want a mine close to a wetland where pollution control dams are

incorrectly sized (agreement from audience)

– This tool is also used to determine water usage for different operational regimes

– The proposed mine is composed of a north pit, which would be mined first. The

south pit would be mined second.

– Smelter, refinery, tailings…all need pollution control. So there are return water

dams were pollution and water is stored

– Water sources:

o Grassvalley mine (especially asked by the audience for more information

regarding this)

o Or if that is not sufficient, external sources would need to be used.

o This mine dynamic water balance is used to determine what the raw

water requirements are and to ensure that pollution does not go out

into the environment

– Operational levels – may use either more or less water that is available from the

pits.

– Early phases of mine the plant will not be operational, so there will be an

overproduction of water from the pits (more water will be removed from the pits

then the mine needs to operate)

o This extra water can either go to the mine or to irrigation

o This water is fine for irrigation, but high in nitrates (so would need to be

treated if it goes to the town)

– This whole scenario uses conventional tailings (a lot of water wasted). It is predicted

that the mine will run into water issues in 2025

o Water would then need to come from other regional sources

Proposed to come from Grassvalley (Audience would like more

information)

Audience:

As we understand it, Grassvalley has nothing to do with these operations, so surely this isn’t an

operational requirement

Proposed to bring in water from another farm to set up the

mine

Audience:

Why is water coming in from grassvalley into irrigation and then out?

Mr Fischer:

– Water initially comes from the pits, from day one, there is too much water for the

mine. This extra water goes to irrigation. Then, the mine starts using water.

o During summer the mine will have enough water

o During winter the mine will not have enough water from the pits. It is

proposed that the mine now gains water from grassvalley

Note – it was asked earlier, and at the end of the meeting that this Grassvalley concept is expanded

on. This is the first time that Grassvalley has been mentioned as a water source

Audience:

Why would we need water from Grassvalley to go into irrigation? Come back to this (this point was

not returned to)

– Note – The community is extremely concerned about water

Mr. Fischer:

– Extra pit water options:

o Irrigation

o recharge groundwater

o water going to town. However, water coming from pits will be high in

Nitrates. This would be expensive to treat (to drinking water standards).

However, if the authorities wish for this method, these standards may

be reached – decision will need to be made by authorities

……………………………………………………..

Presentation 3 - Smelter

– Air quality issue

– Visual impact issue

– Emissions from smelter – not deemed to be a major concern

– Handling of material – important

Concern: what are the concerns, why here

– 60m operational stack height (preliminary)

………………………

Presentations ends

>>>>>>>>>>>

Questions and answers

Q) Hilary Knight: presentation on smelter was asked for from me. It is a pressing concern, it

continues to be a pressing concern. Information given in this presentation was not adequate. We

are asking:

– What do we need to know?

– What is the difference between this and other smelters?

– What are the volumes?

– Etc.

A) Mr Fischer: All the above information is in the report. I can try and answer some now, but I

am a chemist and will not be able to answer all questions. The smelter is a key step in the

benefactor process….

Q) (Hilary Knight) ecological, human, environmental, water, air, dangers? We want any potential

problems to be highlighted?

A) Mr Fischer:

– before smelter is roasting. Starting with that as there are concerns with that the

roasting.

– Fluidised bed technology

– ore is need to be roasted to liberate metals.

– Products are: metal oxide and sulphate oxides.

– Metal oxide may be dangerous depending on metal.

– there might be chromium here.

– SO2 is a criteria pollutant – limits to what can be released. This plant, when in

operation, will not produce SO2 at concentrations that are lethal, but will be above

legal limits. Thus, needs to have abetment controls.

o 2 methods have been considered

1) easier and cheaper – scrubbing facility (it is problematic- can

discuss over tea- creates calcium sulphate and philtre which

need to be got rid of as waste. Not advised.

2) second method is advised (name of methods?)

– In this instance the smelter is less of a concern then the roaster.

– Don’t believe that the levels are of a level of issue – more concerned about dust.

– Smelter follows on from roaster.

o It is a closed furnace.

o Carbon monoxide is a by-product – needs to be managed, this is done at

every closed system smelter.

o This is more a health and safety issue within the smelter. CO is

combustible and will be used in combustion in the roaster.

– Chrome – associated with platinum.

o Treat chromium in thermal processes – soluble, toxic and carcinogenic.

o However, this is not a problem in closed furnaces – under a reducing

atmosphere (due to the CO) so this removes this issue.

Q) Wayne Knight – why does this smelter facility need to be where it is being proposed, why not

further away from the wetland. Particularly with the knowledge that Sylvania is a processer of

low grade ore. Why is this smelter needed here?

A) Mr Fischer cannot answer this – this should be answered by the mines technical and

economical sections – direct question to them

Can answer this:

– feasibility, mine here because the ore is sitting at the surface.

– Milling has to occur on site

– after milling – floatation - what needs to be done with this concentrate , treat here

or elsewhere.

– Dried then roasted then smelted.

– Advantages and disadvantages of having all this back to back

– Essentially said that it makes logistical and economic sense for the mine to have the

smelter here.

Agreed that Sylvania will give a technical response here. Including how much (if any) ore will be

coming from other mines?

Q) More a comment

– What the community understands about what is being said is:

– it makes sense to put a pit into a wetland – gains water for free

– The quantity of this mine does not warrant a smelter

– Concerned about the wetland and the water

– Believe that there is a smoke screen here

Q) Why is the smelter being advocated for this sensitive environment? Why not somewhere

else?

Q) The community would like formal confirmation on whether this will be a

Manual/transportable smelter

Note: the concern that this mine is a smoke screen to gain a smelter with easy water access.

Q) What is the relationship between Ivanhoe and Sylvania? (based on newspaper/web

reports)

A) Anton De Vos: there is no relationship

Q follow on) Mooinooi

– joint venture between the Ivanhoe and Sylvania.

– Strange that on the listing of Ivanhoe, Mr Stewart Murray told the press that there

was (exact quote was given here)

– Thus there is concern over this erection of the smelter

– Internet shows a relationship.

– The community wants the commitment that they will not transport from what is

planned to be the largest platinum mine in the country o this site.

– if this is not the truth (if there is no relationship), why is it on the internet, in a press

release form

A) Sylvania: Anton De Vos: cannot comment on anything said by Steward Murray – wasn’t

there. Does not mean the smelting will be here.

– Will ask for what the relationship is, in what context such a statement was made.

Want a comment from Sylvania that they will not bring the ore from other paces to here, into this

agricultural area

A) By Mr Fischer - technology proposed here is built on a small scale.

– Sylvania will have licence with limits. This current project puts the smelter at its

limits.

Sylvania needs to give the authority that only what is mined here is smelted here – Sylvania needs to

answer on this

Q) Question from water affairs:

– Output from the mine – how will the proposed mine impact on ground water

specifically ?

A) Mr Fischer:

– There is an extensive study that has been done.

– No impact regarding acid mine drainage.

– Alkaline rock here- can deal with neutralising of any acid produced.

Q) any other impact on Ground Water?

a)Mr Fischer:

– Evaporation occurs in industry

– Most of the evaporation occurs here in the tailings facility.

– There will thus be a build-up of salts in this system

– its already high here.

– Needs to be monitored.

– It is a concern.

– This water (polluted tailings water) should not find its way into the environment

– Tailings – water use – technology – still under study.

–

Q) 1) why is the modelling domain its size

2) When the Nyl floods boreholes are recharged 60km from the mine (this is well known in

the area)

3) if pollution gets into the groundwater – how will it impact the groundwater (given that

the boreholes recharge 60km away.

A) Mr Fischer:

– Red block is not the only area that was modelled.

– Huge area was modelled in the integrated water balance

– Integrated water balance looks at: rainfall, evaporation, abstraction, tracks water

through the entire catchment.

– Ground water model is the small red block. It is this size as it is a highly detailed

model, primeval reason:

o the model software is limited in the area that it can model

o Bigger area becomes more course.

o Computers ability are the limiting function here.

Q) how does this model then dictate the impact further afield.

A)Mr Fischer:

– A unique feature of Nyl is that it is a closed system, except for the flood events.

– Rest of the water is stored in aquifer – not flowing, just sitting.

– (Minute taker makes a note that she became lost between the bilingual nature of

the discussion here)

– Mr Fischer essentially said that there shouldn’t be an impact.

– Mr Fischer’s results shows that there shouldn’t be an impact

Q) Hilary Knight – this is not true – we know this.

– It has been asked before to include local knowledge.

– How far does the underground ecology go?

Q) Mr Honiball

– Scientists have stated that they needed a flood event to fully understand the

system, to answer this exact question

– Now this model – is been used without proper backup, and does not correlate with

local known knowledge

A)Mr Fischer

– River floods causes a rise in boreholes from far away. Correlated but not necessary

mean causal (everyone laughed here).

– borehole system must rise before a flood.

– In dewatering the system- there is an effect on the flood. Can say that significant

dewatering has effects on transmission losses. Preliminary model not finished yet.

Q) Marion Megell – statement.

– I think it’s very hard of you to ask non experienced people to hold on to question of

a scientific nature to the end of a couple of complicated presentations. This this has

made the meeting unnecessary tough for the audience

– How does the model predict flood events. I don’t see how you could possibly predict

a flood event

– Much of this info was based on old information

– There is no mention of staff quarters roads etc.- this will have a huge overall effect

on the mines impact

– Actual question here now:

– Recharge of the aquifer option – however it was stated that the high salt limit

means that the water should not be released into the environment

A) Mr Fischer:

– I am a scientist, I work with others to make predictions.

– Model was given input – most importantly rainfall.

– Rainfall data from 70’s and 80’ s is a better record than now.

– Models outputs coincide with the actual events.

– Yes, the graphs look old, you have a point here – this model is an old model.

However it has been continually improved.

– Ithas the ability to model the system.

A) Anton De Vos

– No housing on the mine – all housing in town.

– The intention is not to put workers quarters on the property, there will be

accommodation in existing places.

– Aquifer recharge – the recharge would not be used to dispose of during process. It

would be ground water moved from pit to Grassvalley.

– No processed water can be released.

Q) Recharge – nitrate – if not suitable for drinking how can it be use for agriculture?

Q) Questions around model. Is this based on Dr du Toits study (Mr Fischer-no). What baffles me on

Dr de Toits study and recommendations which haven’t been picked up neither by Escience nor

Sylvania. He picked up a huge fragmentation and stated that an observed flood event was necessary.

A) Recharge – crops need nitrate

A) Mr Fischer:

– this model is different from Dr de Toits model.

– This model is a catchment scale.

– Dr de Toits one looks at ground water flow.

– Two separate models.

– The Pitmans model is the parent model

– With a model there will be certain assumption

(Q)what are these assumptions?

Q)Wayne Knight:

I see major flaws in the graphs shown, Mr Fischer thinks they are great.

– It significant gets the volume run.

– What I see there – where has the water gone?

– You are assuming that the water is flowing

– Terence Mcarthys Theory

– And other faults are another possibility.

– So model falls apart in my mind.

– I do not see any comfort in your graph, in your models ability to predict water-

except where when it rains a lot there is a lot of flooding.

A) Mr Fischer:

– this model comes with risks.

– What I take from this – the larger the flood, the greater the over prediction.

Q Wayne Knight:

– On smaller peaks I disagree.

– Out of the three, the middle one is a middle flood yet it under predicts.

– Audience does not consider the model to be accurate at all.

– More extraction – greater the impact to the flood.

– Model is not yet good enough

A) Mr Fischer agrees that the model needs work. This is currently preliminary- we would like to

get the audiences opinion on it. Observing a flood would be the ultimate solution

Q) Marion Mengell – dewatering has an impact in-between floods – this is important.

A) Theo agrees. Abstraction in the system potentially affects the flood – big losers will be plants

robbed of their water.

Q) Hillary Knight– saying that the red model area should be moved (because where it is currently,

has the areas greatest extraction rate)

A) Mr Fischer

– don’t confuse the window between the two models.

– I can give you (in a few days –need to get it from specialist) the areas done where

there is more extraction. Can give – promised to give to Marian Mengell a snapshot

of the nature reserve

Q) left out the 2000 flood (big flood) – statistical elimination of data. Has been done publicly before.

A) Mr Fischer:

– those images where satellite images. What I presented to you was available satellite

images.

Note- statistically there have been problems with data used and presented in the past

Q) Mr Honiball: I want a yes or no answer. We agreed with you and Dr du Toit that the flood event

has to be seen, yes or no

A)Mr Fischer: Yes

Q)Is it going to be seen? Is a flood event going to be used? It was agreed.

A) Mr Fischer - I need to make sure that there is adequate information to make an informed and

definable decision. At that point there was not adequate certainty. At the time it was believed to

need a flood event to advise. If this reference group of specialist is confident enough for them to

make an informed and defendable decision. I respect their decision. First prize is still a flood event.

Q) Mr Honiball – comment to that – if decided by the specialist and not a flood event. Then Mr

Fischer is breaking his word and his agreement

MrsM Mengell states that it needs to be remembered that no two flood events are ever the same

Q) Nyl recharges groundflow, groundwater flows to his (Philippie’s farm), but then flows in another

direction, concerned that he will not get enough water.

A) Dr Garfield Kriege is of the concern that there is leakage

Q) Philippie says there is definitely a connection between the flood event and the boreholes

Q) Wayne Knight – Giving the use of faults within the models, I would like to know what the real

assumptions around the model are.

A) Mr Fischer:

– I can’t give full set of assumptions.

– Assumptions – that the geological conditions of certain rocks are the same as the

regional characterises.

– Faults are in the area. Majority are in Grassvally.

– Many faults may not be as conductive as we expect – a lot of these faults are fused

by calcite – but not all are fused.

– This area is extensively fractured but in this fractured area there is the potential for

areas to have larger relative conductivity

Q) Wayne Knight

– drill as you say you can’t hit the ones we want.

– We know that there are large channels of flow and areas without that.

– Yet modelling on conductivity. How can you do so?

A) Mr Fischer:

– you are right in some events

– There some areas of high conductivity.

– Grassvally is an example where it went wrong.

– Model assumes mostly homogenous

Q) Wayne Knight: how can u say that this is the worst case scenario?

A) Theo Fischer

– the faults conductivity is higher than its actual conductivity.

Q) Wayne Knight:

– I am not accepting that this model is correct, due to the homogenous, fracturing.

– This model underestimates the worst case.

– Also given what Giep du Toit’s findings.

– We know the water doesn’t just flow over (Hilary’s dad had a farm there)

– concern that other studies show that the dewatering effect is much greater.

A) Theo Fischer:

– The detailed report will be made available. There is a preliminary water report

available – with assumptions.

– Applicant has agreed to fund a peer review of the study, costs for the proponent

Q) Hilary Knight for Clarinus:

– when the mine closes down.

– What happens to the pollutant water in the dams after the mines closes?

a) Mr Fischer:

– post closure.

– Geochemical modelling down.

– Pits – filled with waste rock

– Will add to salt loads that is already present it the current water.

– The increase of salts will still be within drinking water limits.

– However, as a precaution, everyone one must test drinking water for quality before

the mine starts etc.

– Water should remain in the immediate sponge

life of mine:20 odd years

Q) Mr Retief from bird life SA.

– This system is a massively important water.

– I appreciate that Mr Fischer has tried to find a model to answer questions.

– But this model does not answer all the questions.

– Sylvania says they care- I think we need to ask Sylvania to wait for a flood event.

Don’t think we can gamble on a model.

IT was requested later that Mr Retief formalise his question/comments in a written

statement

a) Mr Fischer:

Thank-you for your comment. We don’t want to gamble.

Q) Mr Honiball – legislation –

– minerals act says that within 14 days of accepting a mining right. The court states

that they never received such notice

– When was the application lodged. How was the 180 days calculated?. From when?

A) Anton De Vos:

– lodged on the 26th or 28th June.

– Accepted in the middle of July.

– I think the 180 days starts from then.

Q) Mr Honiball: why isn’t that info disclosed to us? Why is it a secret?

facilitator – can we make that available?

Sylvania (Anton De Vos) Yes, can give the date.

– Mr Fischer suggests that Sylvania sends the letter

– Anton De Vos does not think giving the letter will be a problem

B) Notice wasn’t given - it wasn’t given to the court – this needs to be given? DMR says they

submitted it, the courts say they didn’t.

– So there are no IAP comments – but that is because they weren’t told.

– Mr Honiball has brought it under the attention of the DMR.

– Mr Fischer says seek a legal opinion of Sylvania

Q) Rose –

– It is acknowledged that this project will compromise a site of international

importance. A Ramsar site, a wetland.

– Why?

– The yields are so very small?

Q) Marion Mengell – if u are so convinced that modelling is such a good thing, tell me, when is the

next flood?

a) Mr Fischer thinks the model will ultimately be able to do that – but in real time.

– Comment from the Audience that the Farmers could do the same

Q – Marion Mengell:

– Where is there mine without additional infrastructure (housing and roads)

A) Mr Fischer

– no hostels, nothing on area

– Anton de Vos– not planning to create a squatter camp.

Q) What will u do if informal settlement arises around the mine

A) Anton De Vos

– This needs to addressed within legal channels

Q) will the mine take responsibility?

A) Sylvania needs to answer this.

Facilitator – water forum

Purpose – assist in gathering information (facilitate) to furnish to a specialist. So for complaints,

baseline information, monitoring. It’s for the purpose of starting with enough information so that if

there is a problem later it can be addressed.

Hilary Knight– the Water Forum must have a proper purpose, must not be for ticking boxes for the

application.

Mr Fischer – water forum will be a key requirement for the efficient and functional water

management in this case. Effective and amicable requirement

Mr Honiball – seems to be a difference between gathering info and baseline assessment?

Theo –would need to differentiate information gathering adequate for a decision to be made and

baseline monitoring

Phase 2 would be baseline monitoring

– Water Forum essential in assisting to prescribing a baseline.

– Keeper and assimilation of data

Phase 3- water monitoring is undertaken to see if the mine has an impact – measure divergence

from baseline and divergence

Mr Honiball – wants an answer – people from the community have to form part of the water forum

to assist the pollutant. Want an answer on whether the members of the water forum are going to be

paid

Hilary Knight–

– we have submitted an extensive list of local people and people who know the

system –

– Mr Fischer is omitting to invite people who should be invited to join.

– The people Mr Fischer wants to draw the committee from are lay people. Mr Fischer

is not including people who have scientific knowledge .

– Why dose Mr Fischer not want to include the list given by the IAP’s?

– Applicant has only made for 2 meeting on budget.

– So why delay? This was discussed in depth on 4th Oct 2013).

– Why only 2 meetings?

Mr Honiball – what status does the forum have with legislation - why not a catchment agency?

Mr Fischer – water forum will have to be funded – deliberated on who

– List of people – thank-you Hilary for this list

– before I invite I need agreement, with a constitution with representation with

authority, agriculture, local community etc.

– And then invite people with a plan and understanding of how it will all work

Legislation – has to be constituted by some legislation – must convert into a catchment or water

agency

Comment and advice – Steven Vermaak

– Use existing water forums – problem is in the legislation

– Anton – agree, work with existing forum, don’t reinvent the wheel.

– Existing committees

Marion Mengell makes the suggestion of applying to SANBI as an option for funding

Expect Sylvania to compensate

Mr Honiball agree with subcommittee- polluter funds it

A baseline assessment will have to be undertaken anyway.

Q) What’s the progress going forward

A) Mr Fischer

– Specialist studies need to be completed

– draft EIA

– decision made by the specialists

– Comment period close within 7 days of the scoping report.

Birdlife Africa – can you please formalise comment in which you feel the Nyl system is gambled with.

Opportunity for comment close within 7 days from today.

Post meeting comments:

– Require immediate feedback on Grassvally

o what is the plan regarding this?

o Why is it necessary?

o What is the connection between the two mines – full disclosure

o Is this an exchange of water with the municipality?

– All previous attendances need to be invited to the meetings.

– Would like a presentation on the dust, what are the current studies, concerns,

mitigation methods etc.

1

NAME OF AUDIO : 2013.11.29_09.03_01

DATE OF AUDIO :

LENGTH OF AUDIO : 248.51

TRANSCRIBER NAME : JULIA MARTINELLI

TRANSCRIPTION LEGEND : FACILITATOR F (Vicky Napier)

: PARTICIPANT 1 P1 (Theo Fischer)

: PARTICIPANT 2 P2 (? Olivier)

: PARTICIPANT 3 P3 (Ron Mengell)

: PARTICIPANT 4 P4 (ClivePoole)

: PARTICIPANT 5 P5 (Ros Lindsay)

: PARTICIPANT 6 P6 (Bennie Vernuf)

: PARTICIPANT 7 P7 (Marion Mengell)

: PARTICIPANT 8 P8 (Ernst Retief)

: PARTICIPANT 9 P9 (Coenie Du Toit)

: PARTICIPANT 10 P10(Gerrit V D Veen)

: PARTICIPANT 11P11 (Stiewel Vermaak)

: PARTICIPANT 12 P12 (Emile Honiball)

: PARTICIPANT 13 P13 (Lisa Warman)

: PARTICIPANT 14 P14 (Anton De Vos)

: PARTICIPANT 15 P15 (Flippie De Beer)

: PARTICIPANT 16 P16 (Hillary Mike)

: PARTICIPANT 17 P17 (Wayne Knight)

: PARTICIPANT 18 P18 (AlfredWater Aff)

[BACKGROUND NOISE]

P1 Good morning everybody, I would like to welcome you to this focus

group meeting. I‟m going to just briefly introduce you to Victoria

Napier, or Vicky Napier, unfortunately, Sean O‟Byrn, Vicky‟s colleague,

that normally facilitates, had to cancel the facilitation due to

2

circumstances beyond his control. So Vicky will take us through today,

and with that, I think, Vicky, I‟m going to hand you over and we can

look at the programme and so forth, thanks.

F Good morning everyone, trust you‟re all well this morning. Just, ja, my

name‟s Vicky, so you can just [INAUDIBLE] as Vicky, that‟s fine, and,

as Theo has said, I‟ll facilitate today, and were going to do it slightly

differently with the recording so that it‟s clearer from…Apparently the

previous meeting wasn‟t all that clear, so we‟re going to use like a mic,

and that will also facilitate that we have one person speaking at a time,

and I‟ll pass this around to those who have questions, and if you can

just introduce yourselves as to who you are, where you‟re from, before

you ask a question, just so that whoever transcribes these minutes

knows exactly what [INAUDIBLE]. Are we happy with that? Okay. In

terms of the programme, we‟re just going to word a few welcoming‟s

and [INAUDIBLE] to Kobus Kotze and then were going to go through

the Kruger‟s minutes, and Theo will clarify a few questions Roy [?] says

that were not clarified previously, and we‟ll potentially… we‟re not going

to do questions then, if you can‟t just note them down, then Theo‟s

going to go into three presentations, about fifteen minutes each. What

I‟m going to do is I‟m going to allow for three questions after each

presentation, so if they are really specific to the presentation itself we‟ll

do those questions straight after the presentation, and I‟m going to

limited to three and then, right in the end, we‟ve got about two…rather

a hour or so, in terms of just open floor… can ask what ever questions

you have, we‟ll note them down, we‟ll address them, those that can‟t be

addressed, we‟ll take a note of them to be addressed later, okay. And

then also, are we happy with the proceedings happening in English? Is

that fine? If there is a burning question that you‟d prefer to ask in

Afrikaans, I‟ll try my best to translate. Ek kan die taal praat, maar ek is

nie heeltemaal fluent nie, so I‟ll throw in English words now and again,

just so that Fiona, can also just type the minutes. She‟ll be typing

minutes, as well as the recording just to check that we haven‟t missed

anything, and then, right at the end, we‟ll have some tea and

sandwiches. Okay, also the register, please make sure you‟ve signed

the register before you leave. I think we can pass it around. Please

just fill in all those details, and then, I think to start off with, we‟ve still

got a bit of time, I going to ask each person to introduce himself, who

they‟re representing, the body, the organization, themselves etcetera,

just so that we can make sure our attendance register is accurate,

okay. So I‟m not going to start in the front, I‟ll start at the back, and just

pass the mic around and speak into that.

3

P2 Morning, I‟m [INAUDIBLE] Olivier and I‟m a farmer here from this

distrik, Pletsie [?] area.

P3 Ron Mengell, Friends of Nylsvley

P4 Clive Poole, Friends of Nylsvley

P5 Ros Lindsay, also Friends of Nylsvley, thank you.

P6 Bennie Vernuf, „n boer in die omgewing.

P7 Marion Mengell, Friends of Nylsvley

P8 Ernst Retief, I‟m Regional Conservation Manager within [?] Limpopo for

Bird Life, South Africa.

P9 Coenie Metz-Du Toit, ASI.

P10 Gerrit Van der Veen, Mokopane besigheidskamer.

P11 Stiewel [?] Vermaak, boer in die omgewing en lid van TLU op die

Watersake vir die gebied, Noord Limpopo.

P12 My name‟s Emile Honiball, I‟m a local Attorney, and I represent the Nyl

Action Group and interested and affected parties who are part thereof.

P13 Lisa Warman, I‟m a Legal Assistant at Sylvania.

P14 Anton De Vos, ek is van Sylvania.

P15 Flippie De Beer, en ek‟s „n boer.

F Great, thanks very much, and I‟m going to hand over to Theo to go

through the previous minutes. He

P1 I think the previous minutes…there were certain questions that had

been noted, and I think the majority of these have been addressed or

directed at Sylvania, and we have Mister Anton De Vos, which will go

through these questions. Anton, are you ready, do you have them there

one by one?

[BACKGROUND TALKING]

P14 More almal, dis „n klompie vrae, which we will go through. Now, let me

just see where they are. Okay, the first allegation that was made here,

was said that the…it appears the application matter, as it‟s been done

at the time of the submission of the mining right,has been engineered

before or within the December period. I can state here that was, that

was not the intention. Com…previous mining right was withdrawn. It

was…a few things were worked in, because information that came in

4

was added to the soaking report, and when we were ready it was

lodged. The time frame that, that had to be like this, it was definitely

not the intention to engineer anything. We do business,we don‟t work

around school holidays. So when we‟re ready with something, we

submit it, and we work around that. Second question here, does the

mine plan on bringing ore from alternative mines. It‟s possible, we

don‟t know at this stage. The lifespan of the mine is a number of years.

It may happen in future. We can‟t tell you at this stage. Then a

question, which has also been main, why sh…would such a small mine

have a smelter? First thing is, and I‟m not a technical person, but, as it

has been explained to me, the grade of the concentrate that will come

from this mine is about forty grams per ton. Your standard smelters

only accept grades with a hundred…from a hundred ton…hundred

grams per ton and upwards. So we can‟t smelt it at your normal

smelters. Therefore, there will be a smelter built here. There will also

be a refinery. And, once again, I‟m not a technical person, so please

live with me, but I understand that, from the refinery they will take out

the nickel, because there is expected to be a large nickel content here,

and by taking out the nickel, you increase the PTM content of the

concentrate, and it also enables you to do a re-beneficiation, which

allows you to sell the content. [SILENCE] Theo, then there‟s something

about the zone impact, and of that I will leave to the technical people

to, to reply to. Did I skip anything here? Oh, sorry there‟s another one.

How will neighboring properties be compensated? Want a legal

document outlining the compensation and mitigation of all losses if, we

can address that. Now the law is that if you, unlawfully, damage

somebody else‟s property, if you cause damage to anybody else‟s

property, you are liable to make that good, and I think the same

principle will apply here. If the mine damages something, they are

responsible to fix that. If they don‟t, the laws are there, the courts are

there for anybody who feels that he has suffered damages caused by

the mine to address that, and I think that is the position that I can

explain. Did I skip anything Theo?

P1 I think, there‟s the…does the mine plan bring…mine plan on bringing

ore from alternative mines?...

P14 I said, possible, we don‟t know at this st…I can‟t say at this stage.

P1 Okay, then I think there is one last question that remains…

P10 …[INAUDIBLE] Theo can he reply on that [INAUDIBLE] is that only

what you get [INAUDIBLE] [BACKGROUND NOISE].

5

F [INAUDIBLE] [LAUGHTER] Okay, So, can I ask you just to ask that

question again. Do you want to…

P10 My question is on the feedback what we have now, can we reply on it,

or is that only the feedback what we have of this moment?

F Okay, I think I‟m going to look to assist him with this last question, and

provide the response there and then we‟ll…because we‟ve got a little

bit of time we‟ll take some questions just [?] on this minutes, and from

the last meeting.

[SILENCE]

P1 I think the question here pertains to the cumulative impact. I think

there‟s a… not a spelling mistake, a [INAUDIBLE] of words, not

communicative impact, but cumulative impact from mining, other

mining activity in the area needs to be considered, and the implications

if Grass Valley becomes operational. I can report that this is being

looked into and I can present some limited information on that at the

moment, but, other than making a commitment that it will be

addressed. At this moment I cannot give you any clear reports or any

preliminary feedback other than that. Think that‟s the last.

F Okay, how many people have specific questions on the minutes or

what was just discussed now? One, two, three. Okay, we‟ll take these

three. Can I start with you, sir. Give us your name again and then you

start.

P10 My name is Gerrit Van Der Veen, I‟m from Mokopane

Besigheidskamer. My question is in connection with the smelters.

When there‟s a smelter in that critical area, why we cannot reallocate

that smelter to another area as where the public [[INAUDIBLE] must be

pointed out. And the other thing what our feeling is on…you can say

you‟ve got the right, when you‟re taking someone‟s whole water away,

and the farmer must fight against the mine, I think that‟s ridiculous. The

farmer‟s got not the money, and the mine‟s got the strength, and I think

that‟s a weak point what we need to set out before the mine‟s start.

How it will be handled, how it will be treated, so that the farmer knows

where…when is he affected, water is gone, that he knows where he

stands with the mine. That must be pointed out before the mine starts.

F Do you want to respond now?

P1 With respect to your first question as to the location of the smelter, I

think you make a valid point that the location of infrastructure needs

consideration. I will present some information on the smelter later, as

part of the presentation, and if you may, or if we may, I would like us to

6

then discuss this question. And just, I can, in the meantime, say there

are benefits, pros and cons, advantages and disadvantages of different

locations.

F And the water?

P1 Sorry, yes, with respect to water resources, I think competition for

water and water resources is probably as old as man. At least, in arid

areas, and I don‟t think competition for water is going to lessen as

demand on water resources increase, competition will become fiercer.

I think, I note that your statement as to the size and strength of the

mine, and the weight with which it may apply its need for water

resources, that it is a fact. Also I think we need to recognize that there

are other water users that also have rights. I think the Water Act does

enshrine the right, the ecological right to water, from an environmental

point of view, followed by water needs of communities, and then other

users. Agriculture, obviously, is a very important water user, but so is

mining. And I think the…if your water is such that it has to be

managed, a process involving all stakeholders including authorities.

F Can I jump in there? I think the question was the…how can the farmer

lodge complaints? Is it more a case of being operational then…

P10 …no…

F …there‟s less water, you want to lodge a complaint…

P10 …not quite that, he must make, before the mine starts…

F …okay, so before the mine starts…

P1 …they want water resources…

P10 …allocate [INAUDIBLE][OVERTALKING] that‟s affected, and that will

be affected, that can be on the farmers, that can also be community.

We must not have the situation what we had, of this moment in

Lichtenburg in the public areas, where the mine comes in and the

community and the farmers around it, they are affected, and you‟ve got

no…and they‟re poor and [INAUDIBLE] peoples [INAUDIBLE]

[OVERTALKING]…

F Okay, so the question is, that before the mine is established, there

should be some kind of forum, some kind of committee, or something

established where people can discuss water issues specifically…

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] resolution…

7

F …and the group. Okay, let me perhaps do a comment on that, and

then we‟ll come back…

P12 …right sorry, what we‟re asking and what we…what you‟re interpreting,

and what Theo‟s interpreting are not the same thing.

P1 Can…just for a minute, can we…

F …I think that…

P1 …leave it with Gerrit for now…

F …okay…

P1 …can we re-explain…

F …ja…

P1 …and then we still have answers.

P10 My point is, when the mine starts, then everything is already fixed.

What I want to ask you, can we not have an agreement beforehand,

when somebody is affected, a farmer, or the community, how will the

mine be handle it, want when we do it afterwards, then we can see it in

Lichtenburg, we can see it in other areas…

P12 …There‟s the Witbank area also…

P10 …and then, we‟re sitting with the problem, the community get no water,

the farmer get no water, we coming in a court cases with each other,

there‟s no money from the community, there‟s no money from the

farmers, and the mine‟s got the strength on its hands, he got the

money, and he‟s playing games, aagh, not games, he‟s playing with

the community around. I think that‟s my point.

F Okay. Do you have a response for that?

P1 I don‟t have an exact answer, but I agree that there needs to be a

mechanism, a formalized mechanism, that can handle dispute

resolution in the pregnancy [?], and that can make recommendations to

authorities. Is that a good?...

P? No, we want an agreement before this [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 No, I understand…

F …ja,so…

P12 I agree, I…

8

F I‟m going to leave…

P12 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] understood their point, is the quality

of the water…

F …sorry, can I just, say here that I think this is a specific comment that‟s

not specifically to do with the minutes. We note it, as in there is an

agreement. It‟s a case of having this agreement up front, before the

mine starts, as to how we‟re going to deal with complaints, how we‟re

going to resolve disputes, but everyone is in agreement that this is the

process that will be followed. So that there be [INAUDIBLE]…

P12 …[INAUDIBLE]…

F …that‟s correct. So, I think I want to park this, and we can take this

further with the discussion at the end. I want to try and keep minutes

together…

P12 …well I think…

F …presentations together…

P12 …my point of view, that was mentioned in and it was minuted

[INAUDIBLE]…

F …so it was minuted within this minutes?...

P12 …ja, and in the [INAUDIBLE]…

F …okay, alright, so it wasn‟t minuted correctly possibly?...

P12 …Well, I…

F …but it will be minuted in this group.

P1 What I can say is this issue is something that has been identified, and

that has been, walking along with us for a long time, for a whole year,

and it needs to be addressed, and there needs to be a formal

mechanism in place, I agree, and lets leave it at that.

F Okay, there was a comment at the back. Just your name again and

then…

P4 Clyde Poole, friends of [NAME]. This is more procedural. In every

meeting I‟ve attended, other than the ones done by e-signs etcetra,

previous minutes have been printed and distributed to the attendees so

that we can see whether each point has been contentious, or

9

otherwise, has actually been covered. I don‟t seen anyone with any

minutes here.

F Okay.

P1 No, we did not supply minutes in print, however, the minutes were

taken and distributed immediately after the minutes…after the meeting

of last, within days of that, so I do believe the minutes have been

distributed.

F I do have one copy here in print if anyone wants to [INAUDIBLE]

[OVERTALKING].

P1 There is an extra copy in print, I have been informed, if anybody would

like a copy we can supply them with that.

F How was it distributed, email? [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]

P1 …via email...

F …via email, okay.

P12 Why didn‟t the gentleman receive it?

F Ja, did you receive via email?

P4 I haven‟t been served anything.

F Okay, so you haven‟t been served anything.

P4 …[INAUDIBLE] have also not been served anything.

F Then you would prefer that minutes get distributed…


F …to everyone, okay…

P4 …one normally minutes that we agree…

F …yes. I must say, normally minutes are distributed to those who are in

attendance, because they were there to be able to comment on what

was discussed, and whether that was adequately recorded or not. I

think we can possibly look into the fact of distributing minutes to all

stakeholders on the database, but there must be an understanding that

we can only request edits to that meetings who were actually at the

meetings. So it will be more for background information then. Is that

possible?

10

P1 I think it‟s possible, but, from a functional point of view, I‟m not sure

how. That‟s possible, and if that‟s the request, it can be actioned, but

I‟m not sure how functional that is to distribute. There‟s a database of

four hundred odd people to…it can amount to spam mailing. Sending

people this so, I‟m not adverse to it, there could be a website where

people can download this, but I don‟t want to [BACKGROUND

TALKING], I don‟t want to…

F Okay…

P12 …I have…

F So we‟ll minute it, and we‟ll look at a…the team will decide on how best

to deal with that, and then, and make that recommendation. Okay, I

just need to take this other gentleman‟s comment for the minutes.

P12 Yes, ma‟am I‟m very happy that somebody else also raised the

procedure. We were not part of the previous studies…participation

meetings, and we‟ve raised it several times in the past, the procedure

that‟s followed and that‟s not procedurally correct. As far as the

previous minutes are concerned, there were certain things we agreed

in the previous minutes, we received emails yesterday, which actually

are not what we agreed at the previous meeting. I would like you, as

the facilitator, to please lay down certain rules. In the emails that were

sent yesterday, at the previous meeting we agreed that the consultant

said that interested and affected parties and land owners, specifically,

were being obstructed. It was agreed at the previous meeting that, that

was a misleading and unfair statement to make. It was yesterday, in

the emails we received yesterday, it was, once again, repeated. We

agreed on that the protocol would be followed, which was already

agreed upon in, I think, May or even prior to that, that there would be a

certain protocol to be followed. Yesterday we were informed by the

consultant, that the protocol, he hadrevised the protocol, and that the

other protocol applies. We were never part thereof, and it appears that

it has been unilaterally decided. What is the use of us having meetings,

and agreeing, and minutes being held, and it‟s not held…upheld. As far

as the emails are also concerned, I think one of the rules should also

be that we shouldn‟t insult each other. The consultant, in that email that

he sent me yesterday, he informed me that I was furnishing my clients

information selectively and partially, and I would like him to indicate,

please, when I furnished information selectively and partially, to who I

informed him…I furnished that information selectively and partially, and

how I informed them that. „Cause I think it‟s a unfair allegation to make.

The consultant is welcome…I‟ve been practicing as an attorney in this

area for more than twenty years, and I challenge him to find anybody,

11

in our area, in one of the neighboring towns, or cities, to find anybody,

one of my colleagues, or people with whom I work, or a clients to whom

I‟ve done what he‟s saying I‟ve done. I challenge him. Further, I think

the comment…he had also informed us in one of the emails that,

specifically with regard to comments that I made, that I made two

hundred and sixty seven comments, and that we should keep out

comments short. My question is, and I would like that also to be made

one of the rules, is are we limited as far as our comments are

concerned, because then it‟s not a free and voluntary process, and I

don‟t think that is the purpose of public participation. Once again, it‟s a

personal comment from the consultant which I think he should refrain

from. We‟ve requested a lot of information previously, in letters, we‟ve

requested a lot of information, at meetings, which we have not been

furnished with. I‟m not going to elaborate on it. The most important of

that, we still don‟t know when the Mining Rights application was

lodged. They‟ve got a long answer, it‟s just a date. If we make our

calculations, we looked on Internet, and we saw on Internet that it was

lodged on the twentieth of May. As yet, despite having requested that

several times from the consultant, he hasn‟t confirmed when this

application was lodged. [BACKGROUND TALKING] I‟m not finished

please.

F On the minutes, from last meeting, other comments were [INAUDIBLE]

[OVERTALKING]…

P12 On the minutes, we raised the point that our letters are not being

answered. It was asked in our letters, we were informed that the

process is starting afresh, I think in approximately August or

September of this year. On the sixth of September, we were informed

that, and there was a lot of information which we requested subsequent

to that. Specifically, when the new application was lodged, and in terms

of which legislation is it being lodged. The MPRDA or the Scorenema

[?], we‟ve asked them that. Those are simple questions that are not

being answered…

F …okay…

P12 …If we calculate, if it is so that the application was lodged on the

twentieth of May, and we calculate the fourteen days within which

the…

F …authorities…

P12 …the authority needs to notify interested and affected for…and the

applicant to conduct a public participation process, then the fourteen

days takes us to, approximately, the beginning of June. If we

12

calculatethe hundred and eighty days from then, then it‟s already out of

time. So, we‟d like him to indicate to us, how they calculated the

hundred and eighty days. The further Actec…

F How many more points do you have [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]?

P12 …I don‟t have many…

F …okay…

P12 …I don‟t have many…is regarding the transcription, the transcription

we‟ve been asking for, it hasn‟t been transcribed. I had a discussion

with Miss Stretton-White [?] this morning and I don‟t blame her for it,

because it‟s impossible for her, to by hand, take all the minutes. The

one single, most important point that the minutes of the previous

meeting omit, is that we vehemently objected to the fact that they want

to use data with regard to the flood events of the Nile River. Whe…the

specialists have, on many occasions in the past, indicated that they

want to see a actual flood event, and we vehemently opposed the fact

that they want to use…simulate it and use data, which, whatever data.

We vehemently opposed that, and that is not reflected in the minutes.

That is certainly the most important point, and, that is why we‟re saying

that the the…procedurally, I think we must agree on some rules, which

must be exacted, because the…we know what the answers are going

to be. Mister Fischer is, again, going to tell us he‟s not sure, and he

doesn‟t know, as he has already done. He‟s not sure, and he doesn‟t

know, and he doesn‟t have the answer, and Sylvania, and who knows

what. We come here every time to hear that.

F Alright, I think, just, in summary, we need a protocol for the meetings.

Can ask you to comment on the protocol and distribute it, and then we

can agree on one for this meeting, at least, as a minimum, to start off

with.

P1 I think the protocol refers to communication with property owners and,

not necessarily. with meetings. So I‟ll reply to that. There is a history

to the protocol. The protocol is that the environmental assessment

practitioner will not contest the property owner, but will contact Mr

Emile Honiball, the attorney representing property owners, and then

protocol has been implemented and adhered to. Unfortunately, there

has been an incident, where I requested, twice, telephonically, Mr

Honiball to make a request to one of his clients, and that wasn‟t

actioned, envy of and therefore, from that point on, in order not to have

miscommunication, I would like to be sure, and also make contact with

the property owner. Ja, I don‟t want to go into a long process about

13

this, but this is essentially the protocol. So, I would gladly adhere to

protocols, provided it‟s functional.

P12 Ma‟am, may I ask a question?

P1 Can…Emile, I think you…

P12 …why are you trying to shut us up again?...

F Ja, can I, I‟m going to park this for the questions session at the end…


F …and we‟re going to…we‟ll resolve something at the end, promise, I‟ve

got it on my notes…

P12 …ma‟am the q…as it is on the record, at the moment, we‟ve got an

answer [INAUDIBLE]. I‟d like to…

F …okay…

P12 …answer to this…

F …I‟m going to park it, otherwise we‟re not even going to get into the

presentations today, okay…

P12 …may I ask to be parked on the reserved parking…

F …yes, we‟re going to come back to it at the end. Just a, and I think, in

terms of communication in general, we‟ll discuss that at the end.

Comments, in terms of limited, there is no limitation to comments, or

the shouldn‟t be, in terms of written comments. I‟m at his…

P1 …can I just reply to this? In a perfect world, you‟d have a reply

immediately, to an email. Unfortunately, this is a clustered EIA

process, where large numbers of requests and communications are

received. They cannot all be processed immediately and forthwith, and

generally, the procedure is to pool them, and to give comments in the

form of a comments and response report. So, I would very much like

to, always be able to give exact answers immediately, and full

information, it‟s not always possible.

F And comments and response reports are generally available in the

draft reports that are submitted for public review. Right?

P12 Never…

F …for a response…

P12 …that‟s not really true, the issue was that…

14

F …it‟s not minuted…

P12 … [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] to make two hundred and sixty

sevencomments,and we‟re told that…

P1 Yes, Emile, I made that request to you in a letter, because, I think, you,

personally, have the record,by an order of magnitude, in the number of

comments that were made, many of them[BACKGROUND NOISE],

and you can read them in the comments responses report, many of

them, I would say, were essentially just a statement that the report

does not do this, or does not do that. Essentially amounting to

somebody having to go through the report, and direct you to a

paragraph and a page, where it is, in fact. In my entire life, as an

environmental practitioner, I‟ve never had two hundred and sixty seven

comments from one person.

F It‟s a permissive response…

P12 …is it „cause that [INAUDIBLE]?

F Okay, we can come back to this point of communication at the end.

The transcript, as far as I understand, it‟s busy being transcribed, the

minutes to the previous meeting. This is why doing this method of

handing the mic to each person, to facilitate that process, to make it a

bit easier for the person who‟s transcribing those minutes to make out

exactly who said what. So, it should be a little sooner, after this

meeting, that those transcripts are available, okay. Alright, we‟ve

got…I‟ve got, there two gentlemen, their statemen…comments for now.

I think I‟m going to ask that we move on to the presentations, and I‟m

literally going to ask three questions of the each presentation. Unless

we agree that we leave all minutes to the end. Is that okay?

P12 …can‟t stand here and say, it‟s okay, we only have two questions

prepared to take [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …No, just for that presentation…

P12 …what‟s that got in participation?...

F …there‟s an…more than an hour at the end to get through comments,

we need to get through the presentations…

P12 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] so one sided [LAUGHTER].

F Okay, would anybody else like to move all questions to the end? Or,

would you like different questions in between? We just want to be able

to give you the information before questions are asked.

15

P13? I think this is a sign of the frustration that has been experienced

repeatedly, where Mister Fischer takes the floorand talks forever,and

none of the questions that we request, minuted or not are resolved,

discussed, or [INAUDIBLE], and when we do get a reply, from mister

Fischer, it‟s wishy washy, yes maybe, well no way. I‟ve scratched my

head, I‟ve got the [INAUDIBLE] to sing, you know, this kind of thing.

[BACKGROUND TALKING] We…it is extremely frustrating for us to get

to these meetings and hear wishy washy, maybe, if not, but, no, why.

We don‟t get answers.

F Okay, well I think, from a facilitation point of view, I‟m going to let… I‟m

going to run through the information, so at least, we‟ll have all the

information there, it‟s been stated, and then we‟ll take comments from

there. Is that alright? So, we‟re going to go through all the information

first, let that be presented, so we, at least, are armed with that

information, and then we‟ll discuss questions, and hopefully, we can

provide the answers to that. Okay?

[BACKGROUND NOISE]

P1 Right, the…today, I have three presentations, at first, it was only

proposed to have two presentations, they‟re only fifteen minutes long,

the third one, on the smelter, was requested by interested and affected

parties, and I added that. I have more background information. I‟ll try

and be brief as possible with the information, and then we can have

maximum time for questions afterwards. Okay, I‟m going to just quickly

present on progress made with hydro-geology in the groundwater

model, and how that fits in with the larger integrated surface and

groundwater model.

P13? No, Chris [?] please, [INAUDIBLE]…I‟ll tell him that. Please, it‟s normal

practice, yet again, that when presentations are made, that one has the

notes in hand, so that we can make notes on the side. This has never

been the courtesy provided by e-signs, Sylvania and parties, such like,

these things are minimum requirements. We are repeatedly refused

this opportunity.

F Okay, that‟s being minuted, and we‟ll note that as well.

P1 Okay, I think, there‟s additional work that‟s been done on hydro-

geology in groundwater, and what I‟m going to just present, information

that‟s been generated by Doctor Giep Du Toit, and these are two

scenarios, for the purposes of informing water management. In the

one is a scenario A where there‟s no groundwater inflow to the open

cast pits. That‟s…sorry, this is high, that‟s the…a typing error, no

grouting, sorry, it‟s low, with grout, no fault. So A his low groundwater

16

inflow, with grout, no faults, and B is high groundwater inflow, no grout,

and faults. What I‟m going to do is, I‟m going to just play a video of the

simulation.

P12 That‟s ridiculous, because that‟s not real [INAUDIBLE]

[OVERTALKING]…

F …let‟s finish this presentation, please…

P1 So, this is the modeling, if you can see, that‟s the pit, and the pit de-

watering. And there you can see the de-watering cone intercepting,

and that‟s the south pit. I‟ll re-play that…

P13? …I‟ve got no…

P12 …[INAUDIBLE] a stone that‟s sat on the…

P1 … That is, that‟s with grouting, and no faults. So this is a death plate

[OR place] scenario, if you‟d like to. Now, what I‟ll play to you is the

worst case scenario that‟s been modeled, now, sorry…I beg your

pardon, I‟ll re-play that. Unfortunately, I can‟t slow it down. You can

see this is the fault line that‟s being simulated, and you can see the

drawdown cone intersecting with the Nyl. I‟ll re-play that.

P13 …if you keep [INAUDIBLE] and it‟s growth…

P1 …Okay, what‟s included here…

P13 …it‟s no grouting…

P1 …it‟s grou…it‟s no grouting with faults, so it‟s maximum de-watering.

Now, I‟ll let it run, and then pause it, so you can see that a larger area

of the Nyl wetland is undercut -substantially larger. But also, in this

scenario, substantially more water is taken out of the system, out of the

open pits. So, I think that‟s what we‟ve got to take from this.

F It‟ll be your…finish the presentations first.

P1 Okay, so what I want to show you, and don‟t see too much in these

dates, but this is the groundwater extraction from the pits in these two

scenarios. From the north and the south pits, respectively, and what

you can see is that, also the scales of these graphs are not exactly the

same, they look similar, but this is significantly more water that will flow

from the scenario where there‟s no grouting, and significant faulting. So

we believe that the reality of the mine will be something in between

this. This fault, and no grout scenario is extreme, and we would say

that this is conservative. So the reality would be something in between

these two scenarios.

17

F Questions at the end.

P13? Just on that graph, [INAUDIBLE].

P1 Sorry that, no that title is incorrect but, I beg your pardon for that, it…

P13 What is the symbol [?] for. What does it stand for?

P1 This would be, this…the higher extraction would be no grouting and

faults, and the lower extraction would be is grouting, no faults. Sorry,

this is a title problem from the graphs coming out of Excel, I‟ll…

P10 …intermittent [INAUDIBLE].

P1 The cannon [?].

P10 Monthly flow?

P12 Monthly flow, monthly flow.

P1 Sorry, monthly flow…

P10 …in cubic metres?...

P1 …ja, in cubic metres, and this is about a megalitre per

day.[INAUDIBLE] forty thousand. So, I just want to indicate that these

are the scenarios. A low and a high extraction scenario, and the reality

will be somewhere in between and will depend on the exact fracturing

of the area, as well as the grouting that will be applied. Now, I just want

to present to you, some preliminary work and findings of the integrated

surface and groundwater balance model. It‟s something that we talked

about quite a bit, and Emile has also, along with Professor Terrence

McCarthy, driven this. The model is based on the, so called WRSM

2000 model, which was developed by Doctor Pitman, and it‟s…in this

model is internationally recognized, and it was previously utilized to

model, amongst others, the Nyl catchment. And what I‟m going to

present to you now is just a…I‟m not going to bore you with the

graphics, but this model breaks the entire Nyl into its sub-catchments

and calculates hydraulic, or sorry, not hydraulic, hydrological processes

in each one of those catchments. And this includes surface,

groundwater, vegetation usage, extraction and all of the like. There is a

preliminary report that will be available shortly, that you can consult.

Now, the model is calibrated against hydrographs, that‟s a measuring

device that‟s operated by the Department of Water Affairs and

Forestry, that measures stream flow. There are a number of these

hydrographs located throughout the catchment, however, in the main

Nyl channel, it‟s quite difficult to operate hydrographs as the Nyl is not

always flowing, and because it‟s…it‟s so flat. However, as part of a

18

previous study, upon which this builds, measuring plates were placed

along the Nyl, including the Nyl‟s Vlei Nature Reserve. And this is one

of the hydrographs, in an upstream area where the model is compared

with observed flows, and, in general, you can see that the model

predicts circuit flows, and this in a upstream area of the catchments,

fairly well. However there are instances where the model indicated

flows, where, in reality, it has not been measured. However, these

hydrographs are also not perfect and are not always properly

maintained. So, the consensus, however is, in the upstream area, that

the model performs well. And I may add that the person responsible for

the modeling also involves Doctor Pitman, that developed this model,

that is now retired, and living in Phalaborwa, in this modeling process,

and he is undertaking the review, and quality control on this.

P12 Sorry, can you tell us, what does that graph mean, is it underground

water, is it surface…

P1 no, that‟s just surface flow, it‟s the surface flow in the Nyl, however, in

order to model the surface flows, the model has to also take the four,

evapo-transpiration, for water storage to groundwater, for abstraction,

so, in order to be able to model the surface flow, the other variables

that play a part in the water balance, have to be fairly well

characterized.So…

P13 …look, another concept…

P1 …yes…

P13 …the first thing that puzzles, need to go to surface and groundwater

balance models…

P1 …yes…

P13 … the concept we will accept [?], are…the examples you gave were all

surface water, is that the [INAUDIBLE], explain that properly please…

P1 This is a catchment model, and it integrates surface, groundwater,

evapo-transpiration, water storage to groundwater, and extraction, so it

is an integrated model, but it is being applied, in this instance,

predominantly as a surface and groundwater interface, and I‟ll get to

some more of that a bit later, if you may…

P13 This is [INAUDIBLE], because this is the hydrograph for the surface

water, and that‟s why they probably bore [?]…

P1 …No, a bit further on…

P13 …a bit further on…

19

F …So, let‟s just keep going and[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P13 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …Ja, he‟s explaining the entire model…

P1 But, the entire section, so this is part of a larger presentation but, yes,

so this should have been, strictly speaking, surface flow at hydrograph

A86012. Okay, now this is something that I think the team is quite

proud of, this is the hydrograph, now, it‟s number doesn‟t appear here,

not that I can see, but it is, essentially, the hydrograph that is located at

just below the N1 bridge, and this is the model and the observed flow

of the Nile River. This hydrograph, I may add has only been in

operation from 2005, or thereabouts, and the hydrograph captured the

flood events of the last seven odd years. And those were the floods of

twenty ten, oh nine late two thousand and seven, and two thousand

and six, and what you can see is that the model does capture the

surface flood events, however, in some instances, it over es…it

seemingly overestimates…


P1 …but, well I‟ll show you something just now, that you need to…also

need to consider. This hydrograph is somewhat problematic, again,

because the flows are fairly shallow and wide, it‟s quite… it doesn‟t

lend itself to perfect verification. However, as you can see, the model

does, very correctly, predict the flow...

P13 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] what those numbers state, please

[INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …for what numbers?...

F …for monthly flow…

P13 …for monthly flow, [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …so, the volume?…

P13 …[INAUDIBLE] just the volume, [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …okay, there‟s monthly flows in mega cubic metres, so that‟s million

cubic metres. So, it‟s only in certain instances that the Nyl will flow,

and that‟s typically the volumes.

F I‟m going to say that, for this meeting, and I think it will be fine, is that

the minutes will be accompanied with the presentation. So, that will be

there.

20

P1 Okay, so, this, however, is a better way of comparing how the model

performs, and that‟s a frequency volume flow here you compare the

total flows detected by the hydrograph against that which is modeled,

which compare fairly well. Okay, so…

P13 …[INAUDIBLE] I can understand [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …So, in this graph, the total flows, at the flow outlet…

P12 …What‟s the bottom axis, sorry…

P1 …This is the monthly flow now…

P13 …[INAUDIBLE] during a flood event [INAUDIBLE]…

F …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P1 …It‟s over this period, it‟s all, it‟s the total volume of water delivered…

P? …[INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …over that period, at the outlet. The total volume of water delivered at

the outlet of the vlei. Measured versus modeled. I…it may seem easy,

but it‟s quite difficult, but, so we need to read this, where the model

indicates, the model actually over estimates. It‟s an important thing to

note, the model, marginally, over estimates the flows…

P10 …you need to put [INAUDIBLE] that explains it to us…

P1 …Okay, so it‟s from eighty five to ninety, so it would be within seven

point five per cent, I would guess. But, then you need to go back to

this graph and say, now did the model correctly predict the floods?

Which I do believe had been the case, however, in certain instances

the model predicts the total, or the maximum flow. It may over predict.

However, this may be an artifact of the hydrograph. Now, this is an

improvement. [BACKGROUND TALKING] This is an improvement on

the previous study, which had been undertaken by the same team,

along with Wits University. And, I do believe that I‟ve made

that…those studies available to the Friends of Nylsvley, as well as to

other parties on the dropbox containing literature on the Nylsvley…on

the Nyl, sorry. So that, essentially, is the catchment, surface,

groundwater integrated model. Now the…what this model allows is a

comprehensive water balance over the catchment, okay. Now, what

this model has been used, is to model the Nyl over, I think, a period of

nineteen twenty or nineteen fifty, all the way up to present, but that‟s

not the most important. The…what this has allowed used to model the

Nyl in its virgin state, and this what I‟m presenting here is not the Nyl in

it‟s…the catchment in its entirety, what I‟m presenting here is the part

21

of the catchment, the local part of the catchment that also forms the

model domain for the groundwater model. So,…

P13 …look, I think [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …I‟ll show you…can I…

P13 …follow [?] please…

P1 …I‟ll show you quickly. That is…I‟ll quickly…It is, essentially, the…this

is the local…this part of the catchment, that I‟m presenting, is a

subsection of the entire catchment, and it‟s, essentially, the area in

which the groundwater model has been set up. So it encompasses

Grass Valley, Volspruit, [NAME], and it goes from the N1 all the way up

to Andriesspruit, essentially. So what I‟m going to present is, what I‟ll

go back to, is, essentially, that part of the catchment and what this

catchment…what the water balance characteristics are of this

catchment in its virgin state, without any abstraction, and then two

scenarios, a slightly conservative, and then a higher abstraction

scenario. So what we see here is that, essentially, there‟s zero

abstraction, obviously, in this virgin state, but what is noteworthy is that

groundwater evaporation, and that is evapo…evapo-transpiration

associated generally with vegetation is quite high, and that these

limited groundwater outflow…or that this area actually has a small

volume of groundwater outflow. However, when we put in an

abstraction figure that we‟ve been…could be credible, and that‟s in line

with what Water Affairs has, in that, roughly, point five megalitres for

Mokopane‟s well field, and then six megalitres for agriculture. We can

see a very significant reduction in the evapo-transpiration from plants.

That means we‟re lowering the groundwater table to the extent that

plants can‟t get to it to the extent that they would in the natural state,

and then the same applies in the scenario where higher, probably an

overestimate of abstraction takes place. Now, to follow the discussion,

in order for this…in order to get the catchment model to perform…to

accurately model flows as detected in the catchment, it is estimated

that the abstraction is closer to eight point five megalitres than the six

point five. So, we believe that this is the scenario that applies in this

domain, and with the water coming in here, and water being taken out

of this over here, and over there, this is, essentially, the output that the

model provides. So there‟s significant abstraction, and the question

then is, how will the mine affect this? Okay, so why is this an

integrated surface and groundwater balance model? It‟s this, in that

previously the groundwater model had to make certain assumptions,

based on experience or literature, otherwise. But, by having the larger

integrated catchment model, that larger model now informs the

22

groundwater model, that‟s seated within it, and this larger model

informs and there‟s alignment, across these models, to also align key

model determinants including recharge [OR resurge?], so it‟s very

important, the groundwater model has to have the correct recharge into

it and that comes from the parent [?] model, and then also evapo-

transpirations had to be aligned, and then also abstractions. So the

larger parent catchment model is used to inform the more local

groundwater model with two inputs. And that will be used to improve

those figures that I‟ve just given you, as to what will transpire in those

pits. Hillary?

F Well, let‟s just ask…

P16 I just want to know how many boreholes, or how many pots are they

[INAUDIBLE] within that model? Are those dots all the boreholes and

so on. What‟s [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …no, these dots that you see here is pivot [?] irrigation areas in

groundwater domain…

P16 …so that‟s [INAUDIBLE] that we need to know, just want to know,

based on how many…

P13? …water holes…


P1 …Okay, so these are areas under cultivation…

P16 …No, I mean your model…

P1 …okay…

P16 … What is your marbles water based on? How many ground…how

many [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …Okay, so the ground water extraction we have in two scenarios, six

point five and eight point five, of which point five is Mokopane…the

Mokopane well fields, and the six or eight is groundwater abstraction

for irrigation.

P13 I think the question is, is that based on boreholes, [INAUDIBLE], or

water reserves?

P1 No, this is based on three sets of information, maybe four, one is the

warm…the Water Affairs data base, the second one is the existing

Water Affairs WRSM 2000 model for the Nylsvley which is

independently commissioned from this study, which had a figure of

23

about eight in it, then it also considers areas under irrigation and the

crops grown and the typical irrigation demands crops in this climate, we

believe that it somewhere in between these two scenarios, probably

closer to the second scenario.

P12 And the other thing, that they can add there, that borehole is not

connected on the whole area. The whole surface of South Africa is not

correct.

P16 Okay, so we move back to the oil [?], the systems [INAUDIBLE]...

P1 Okay, so, we live in an imperfect world, I‟m afraid. So, these

were…these are the scenarios, and I do believe that we have a model

that‟s calibrated against actual flows, so it may not be perfect, but it‟s at

least as good as you‟re going to get. So, again, what we…what I

would like to stress is that, that larger model will be used to feed the

groundwater model, which will the mining activity and these flows from

the updated, as I‟ve indicated, the next step is to input catchment

model data into the groundwater model, the updated groundwater

model, mind you, watering data, to be returned to the larger catchment

model, and then various scenarios to be modeled. Again, the virgin

state, what is this flood of the Nyl, what was it before we came here,

the current state, and in the mining state. And that will inform the

impact assessment, and a number of water management issues.

P16 [INAUDIBLE] concept, [INAUDIBLE] we‟ve got waters to [INAUDIBLE]

what does that entail?...

P1 Okay, so this de-watering data to be returned to the parent model. So

the problem is, this larger catchment model cannot model groundwater

de-mod…de-watering. The groundwater model can‟t model that entire

catchment, so we need to first model the entire catchment, and use

that to inform that water model, for the vlei‟s, sorry, to give it its

boundary conditions. In modeling terms, your mathematics, should we

say, you define its boundaries for it, and when…once the groundwater

model has had its boundaries properly defined, then it can model,

within context, with incredible and accurate context, it can model the

de-watering. But now the question is what will the de-watering mean in

terms of the larger catchment, and in terms of the floods. Then that de-

watering demand will be returned to the parent model and therefore be

able to give us information, and I can just quickly go back, I don‟t want

to waste your time, it is quite complicated, but what you can see here is

under high demand, whereas previously groundwater used to flow out

of this part of the catchment, currently this area, is drawing water in

from neighboring catchments. What you can always…what you should

24

also note is transmission losses. Now the transmission losses is a

complicated term from this model, but part of this transmission loss

number is a effect of groundwater abstraction on the flood event, and

that‟s a key concern and a question mark arou…in this entire study.

And we don‟t have the answers yet, we still have to dig into that. But,

for the first time we have something that can help us better understand,

and in a quantitative way, what de-watering may do to the flood event.

Okay, just want to show you the model has been run from nineteen

twenty, ever since rainfall records have been set, and these are the

number of floods that the model indicates may have reasonably

transpired in the system, and, I think, at least for the Nylsvley Nature

Reserve, and for people in Wetlands Management this may

have…must have value, I hope. And, so, again this is Doctor, sorry,

Professor Terrence McCarthy‟s investigation, where he‟s drilling in the

Nyl, where it‟s in floods, and I do believe now we have some tools to

better understand this process, they‟re not perfect, and they haven‟t

been honed as yet, but they‟re there. Okay, what I‟m going to present

now is a mine dynamic water balance, and this is quite a mouthful, but

a dynamic water balance considers the water needs of a mine or an

industry, or a system, not in isolation, but in its environment over time.

Not once the new facility is up and running and operational, but from

day one. And I think, whereas generally a development can do

without, in this instance this tool is essential and critical, and I‟ll go into

that just now. I‟m not going to bore you with the technical details, but

this tool must be used, in fact it‟s essential in the sizing [?] of mine

water management, and pollution containment infrastructure. You don‟t

want to have a mine close to a wetland and your pollution control dams

are incorrectly sized. So…

P5? …What did you say then?...

P1 …No, no…


P5? …what did you say?...

P1 …I said, you don‟t want to have a mine close to a river or a wetland,

and your pollution control dams are incorrectly sized.


P1 Sorry, so you can have serious problems if you have a mine close to a

wetland, and the pollution control dams are too small, if they‟re too big,

okay, but if they‟re too small you can have a pollution incident. So, this

system is used to couple the relationship between water linkages and

25

systems, and specifically, it‟s important to look at feedback

mechanisms, because in a mine you have a pollution control dam, and

once that‟s full you pump this water there and so you need to keep

track of all the water moving throughout the mines. Okay, so, and this

tool can also be utilized to determine water usage under different

operational regimes. Let me just get to that, okay. So, just to refresh

your memories, the mine is supposed to be comprised of the north pit,

which will be mined first, the south pit, there‟s a concentrator plant and

a smelter, and tailings disposal site, and a waste rock disposal facility.

All of these have to have pollution control of one form or the other, and,

therefore, there‟s a pollution control dam and there‟s return water dams

where water is stored. The whole…I‟m going to show you something

slightly more detailed, and these are the flowers of water that have

been modeled, and I think there is a few important flows that you need

to follow, and I think, the important ones are from the north pit and the

south pit, they are, let me just get those numbers for you, thirty four

and thirty one, respectively, and then importantly, there is flows fifty

one, and fifty two. Fifty one is water forces from the immediate area, in

this instance it‟s supposed to be the Grass Valley Mines, and fifty two

is…indicates the poten…calculates the potential shortfall in the system

that has to come from an external force. So this tool is used to, not only

make sure that there is zero outflow to the environment, but it‟s also

used to determine what are the raw water requirements. So another

important flow that you just need to look at is a flow to a portion of the

water dam that is the irrigation dam. It‟s important to note, that

although, during stable operational conditions the mine will possibly

utilize slightly more or slightly less water than is produced from the pits,

when the mine opens only the pits will be in operation and the plant will

not yet be commissioned. So, in the early phases of the mine, there will

be an overproduction of water…

P16 …I just want to find out is this the thing Grassfield [?] and all the

[INAUDIBLE] groups, have looked at [INAUDIBLE] I just want to

understand what is [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 I‟ll show you just now, and this is a mathematical tool, a spreadsheet,

or it‟s a bit more complicated than a spreadsheet, but it can interrogate

all of those scenarios. Okay, so it‟s thirty one and thirty four is the

groundwater inflow, and that comes from the model those two

scenarios, you can see those two scenarios in here, and then there‟s

also water make up required, fifty one and potentially fifty two, but then

there is also thirty seven and then the irrigation going out to the top is

thirty seven. Thirty seven is excess water that has to go either to town,

or to irrigation, so it will be excess initially. I just want to show you a

26

scenario of, there‟s a whole…each one of those flows have been

calculated and is graphed, but what I‟m saying here at the top is, is flow

fifty one, and that is the water demand from ideally a local source, and ,

in this instance, groundwater at Grass Valley that‟s been taken, and

then what I‟m saying to you in the second graph is the inflow to the

north and south pits that needs to be de-watered to be able to mine

those pits so that this water, combined with that water, will be utilized

by the plant. Then this, what I‟m showing you at the bottom here is the

total clean water requirements over and above this, and flow fifty one,

the dark blue, is from Grass Valley and flow fifty two is an external

force. So, what you can see is the mine, if it, in this scenario, it utilizes

conventional tailings disposal, that means it‟s not thickened tailings and

it utilizes more water. What you can see, with this scenario, that is

groutings, no fault, the mine runs into water issues in near twenty

twenty five. But, at first flow thirty seven is the output to irrigation. You

can see that, in the initial phases, the mine has excess water that has

to either go to town, or be utilized for irrigation…

P13 …Sorry, is that water from those pits?...

P1 …it comes, no, it comes from a regional source in this instance,

proposed Grass Valley. So it goes here, and then it goes out. The

excess…

P13 …[INAUDIBLE] Sir, I just want to understand, Grass Valley has got

nothing to do with the operation, why is water coming…

P1 …because…

P13 …from Grass Valley,[INAUDIBLE] irrigation drain and out to irrigation

[INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …okay…

P13 …that‟s not required in the operational requirements.

P1 …so let me just see that, thirty seven, no, thirty seven is the outflow,

fifty three is make up rom Grass Valley required, so why that‟s included

in the model, and it‟s a good question, is because the mine is water

positive at first, if…and it has to go to irrigation, the objective is to…the

objective is that sufficient water be provided to the irrigator, to be

sustainable. Does that make sense? So, okay…

P13 …I…


P1 …so…

27

P7 …sorry, the guy[?] said, your bringing in mon…water from another

farm…

P1 …yes…

P7 …to help set up the mine…

P1 …and…

P7 …so that ground is [INAUDIBLE] as a Nature Reserve, now…

P1 …so, yes…

P10? …[INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …Grass Valley is the old redundant chrome mine, so…

F …[INAUDIBLE] maybe, if I can just make sure I got the question

correct, was that, when you say the mine is water positive, okay, that

water is because of the de-watering from the pits, and I think the

question is, why is water from the…is it about your previous slide, with

the gui…with the model, why is the water from Grass Valley going

straight into irrigation, to go straight out of irrigation, and not the water

from the pits, from the de-watering of the pits?...

P1 …okay…

F …which is where the positiveness resides, that‟s the question…

P16 …I mean, why would we want to move water from Grass Valley into

irrigation down [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …okay…

F …well, ja, that‟s the question…

P1 …so…

P16 …so. Let me ask [INAUDIBLE] operation?...

P1 No, it has. So you can see that the groundwater from this pit goes to,

firstly to the irrigation dam, and the same from the south pit. Now, why

that‟s needed is…

P16 …we know why, come on we‟re not [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …Oh, No. Let him try finish…

P1 …So, firstly, there will be too much water from day one, so it has to be

irrigated, okay, so these report to the irrigation dam, and they go out.

[BACKGROUND TALKING] Okay, then the mine starts developing and

28

utilizing water, then, in summer, there‟s enough water for irrigation, but

not in winter. So if this component is to be sustainable, then additional

water needs to be routed there, if possible, because a farmer cannot

have water one day and not the next. So [BACKGROUND TALKING]

alright I take…

F …let‟s carry on with the presentation and [INAUDIBLE]

[OVERTALKING] now…

P16 …I‟m just, I just want to [INAUDIBLE] note, that that‟s some form of…

F …He‟ll clarify that…

P16 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] extremely concerned is, and

[INAUDIBLE] ask [INAUDIBLE] questions to ask[INAUDIBLE]

[OVERTALKING]…

P1 …So, what I‟m just trying to say to you is that model can…this can

model various water use scenarios. It can model the input from the pits,

and it can model then on...in fact, what we can also do, is instead of

putting that water out to irrigation, it can be put into the ground to

recharge the aquifer. It‟s another option, and we can also look into it.

Okay, so this is, and apologies for this problem in the graph title, this

with grout, no faults. These are lower flows, so that what you

immediately see is higher water demand, and in this scenario, what I

have to explain to you is this is a scenario, one of them is grout, no

faults, but in this instance, to make up additional…to be able to make

up additional water for the mine in its later years, the water…additional

water is withdrawn from the north pit, so this brown colour is water from

the north pit. So it‟s easier see the north pit extraction terminated, in

this instance it continues. So this is a scenario. If we look at flow fifty

three, here and flow fifty one, in this instance…flow fifty three is the

output to irrigation, right, in this instance…

P16 …To Grass Valley?...

P1 …No, flow fifty three is the total, so flow fifty…[BACKGROUND

TALKING] yes it is from Grass Valley, in order to continue to thirty

seven…

P16 …just go back to that [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …Ja, this is, just about, one point five megalitres of water…

P16 …Now why would we need water from Grass Valley…

P1 …Sorry, in…

29

P16 …to go into irrigation…

F …Okay, let‟s just finish the presentation, and then we‟ll answer

questions, then he can have time, and I want to maximize the

questions...

P1 …So, essentially, these are different scenarios, and we can conceive

of various scenarios, but this is, essentially, a tool that‟s been

developed to assist with water management. There‟s excess water at

first, and it can either go to irrigation, or it can be utilized to recharge

groundwater. That is a decision that authorities and others can make.

P16 …with public [?] meetings [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …okay, so, essentially, this is done to try and get more constant

availability of water for irrigation. It‟s not a requirement and it is…this is

the output, this may not be irrigation, this may also be water going to

town…

P16 …thank you…

P1 …However, note, as we‟ve indicated previously, is that the water

coming from the pit are high in nitrates, to a level higher than the SABS

two for one drinking water standard and will be expensive to treat to

drinking water. If, however, that‟s the wish of the authorities, that may

be exercised. The smelter, okay, I‟m not going to dwell on the details.

Do you…wanted…do you have information about the volumes, so this

is rates of roasted concentrate seed, Hillary, so it will be able to take

four point two tons per ounce [?] of all material that has already been

roasted in a theodised [?] dead roasting process. The issues really

refer, in this instance, refer to S O two emissions, is an air quality

issue, and a visual impact issue. I‟ve indicated the [INAUDIBLE]

modeling output, that‟s part of the air quality impact assessment, S O

two emissions on you one and twenty four hour periods there are

ambient air quality standards that limit the number times that a specific

concentration may be exceeded, so there‟s a limit, like a speed limit,

that‟s one twenty, but, unlike speed limits, air quality, you have a

frequency rich season, so you have a limit of one twenty but you may

exceed it only five times per year, that‟s the air quality standard. This is

what‟s being depicted here, emissions from the smelter is not deemed

to be a major concern. Emissions from materials handling and roads

are actually something else, dust. So, I have that information further

on, if you‟d like to have a look of it, but the request was smelter, so I‟m

giving you that information. The deep…

P16 …[INAUDIBLE] go back to smelter…

30

P1 …yip…

P16 …we want to know all these dangers about the smelter, we want to

know why we have to have a smelter here…

P1 …okay…

P16 …why…

F …let him just finish this presentation [INAUDIBLE] scenario…

P1 …So, the…

P16 …[INAUDIBLE] smelter [INAUDIBLE] it‟s not about the smelter…

F …Hillary, Hilary [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P1 …I will discuss it, but want to go back to a map, but let me go through

it, also, I think, the smelter is probably the more prominent and more

visible feature, or element, of the proposal, and primarily, due to a tall

stack. I can‟t recall exactly the height of the stack, but, I think, it was

determined that the optimal stack is sixty meters. [CELLPHONE

RINGS] That is a preliminary assessment, and it may be revised. What

I can indicate to you is, that you can reach similar compliance, or

groundwater concentrations, through a shorter stack, but emitting less,

if you want to keep that in mind. There is a [INAUDIBLE] analysis, that

analyses the visibility of the mine, and two features, namely the open

pits, and the smelter, specifically the smelter stack, drive the visibility of

the site, however, the pits are fairly large, and the smelter stack is fairly

thin, albeit fairly tall. Okay so, essentially, I just want to go and…the

view stead has been classified into a core five kilometer, and a

peripheral ten and fifteen kilometer visibility, and different views have

been simulated, or generated from different vantage points, and you

can see them in the visual impact assessment, which I also have

available, should you want to visit that in questions and answers. But

what I have included in here is basic renderings that was done to assist

with the visual impact assessment process. It wasn‟t included in the

form of studying, and this is done by the specialist and provided upon

request, and, so what I‟m going to show you first is a one kilometer

view, a five kilometer and a ten kilometer view. And, if you‟re a

kilometer away, I don‟t know how to run these…

F …[INAUDIBLE] look?...

P1 …Ja, it should run from there…what I can do is…I‟ve lost it now…

P? Theo, while you‟re busy there, I need to be [INAUDIBLE]…

31

P1 …Okay…

P? …I‟ll get the slides…

P1 …yes…

P? …with the minutes…

P1 …Okay, thank you…

F Have you signed the register?

P? I have, I have.

P1 Okay, so this is a view from one kilometer. Now I‟ll replay it, it runs a

full circle and this is from an area a kilometer away, and he was

standing elevated above the pit, in this instance and the…it‟s a fly

around at ground level a kilometer around the plant. This is the ink [?],

so sorry. That‟s the tailings disposal facility, sorry for that, the pit in the

foreground and that‟s at one kilometer…

F …[INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …Sorry, now this is at five kilometres, and you can see, it‟s

immediately the visual impact is not as severe, it…although it‟s still

very prominent. Shall I play it again?

P16 …no, it‟s fine, maybe I can ask, just quickly about some of the other

aspects [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …Let‟s just finish the last one and then we‟ll do questions, because

that‟s the end of this presentation.

P1 And that‟s the ten kilometers, and you can see there‟s topography in

your way, see it‟s over large parts of the area. But it‟s still very

prominent, and that‟s it.

F Okay. Alright, so now we‟re going to go into questions and answers,

until we break for lunch which is at one o‟clock, right. So, just as a

courtesy, if I could ask that we, when I give you the mic, that you will

ask the question and you can have a response. So I would prefer not to

have twenty questions left then and have to respond to ten questions

as you tend to forget what the questions are. So we‟ll have one

question at a time. A question, a response, and I‟m going to jump to

people because I‟m not going to have one person hold the mic for half

an hour. So, if I can just have a show of hands first, just the first five,

who is going to have questions? And you want to ask question straight

off the bat, so do you want to start, and then…

32


F …I need to give you the mic, so, and after you, who else has a

question on the presentation? Gentleman at the back. Then we‟ll start.

Okay, let‟s start with [INAUDIBLE] and then we‟ll come to you. So let‟s

just keep one question at a time, and let‟s keep going because we

might, ask the same question that‟s being asked, so let‟s do one

question at a time. Your name again before…

P16 …I‟m Hillary Mike, the presentation on the smelter was requested by

me, but it‟s really been a pressure on consensus issue because there‟s

very little information actually gathered around this. So we‟ve asked

that this please be… so that this information be given to us so that we

know more about it. We know smelters, but this is a different smelter.

We‟ve been told repeatedly that it‟s a different kind of smelter. So we‟re

asking whether we need to know about this smelter? What is the

difference? What is [INAUDIBLE]? What are the pollutants? What are

the volumes? Where is the material coming from? I understand this

question was answered when I wasn‟t here yet. We want to know

about the smelter, please tell us everything we need to know about it,

and then was two sites with the visuals which we know are terrible.

F You want to respond to that? Is it in the report?

P1 Yes, I think there‟s quite a bit of information in the report, but what I can

try and do, and you will have to stop me, I‟m a chemist, and I can try

and answer some of what you‟re asking, which is a lot of this is…So

the reason why there is a smelter, the smelter is a key step in the

beneficiation process. The ore in mines…

P16 …No, please skip that part…

P1 Okay, alright but I…

P16 …you have explained [INAUDIBLE]…

F …Can I ask you ask a specific question about the smelter.

P16 …I know…endure a fight…what is dangerous about the smelter?

F From what point of view?

P16 From an ecological, from an environmental, from a human

consumption of water, the water side of it, the air quality side of it, the

impact…


33

F Okay.

P16 But this is what we want to know, don‟t tell us that the ore is coming

from local…

P1 Ma‟am I want to tell you what‟s the background [?] to this…

P16 …Ja, I don‟t…

P1 …that [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] answer your question.

F Is there informat… can I ask the question? Is there information in the

report that has already been made available to the public? Is that

[INAUDIBLE]?

[CELLPHONE RINGS]

P16 It‟s not understandable to the lay person.

P1 Okay, I‟ll explain...

F So, we would have a better explanation, that is less scientific, and

more…

P16 I want the problems to be highlighted...

F …the problems?...

P16 I want an independent environmental practitioner, to service us…

F …to highlight…

P16 …in a very independent way, what we should be concerned about,

what we should be looking at…

F …okay…

P16 …what we need to know looking at it…

P1 Okay, I think…

F …okay.

P1 Okay, so, before the smelter is a roasting process, now I‟ll start with

that because there are concerns with that. Okay, as was discussed at

the previous meeting, this roaster utilizes a fluidized bed roasting

technology, it was developed by Mintek. It‟s called the Conraod

process. These ores are sulfide ores. We‟ve all seen, at some point in

time in our lives fool‟s gold. Fool‟s gold looks like gold, but it‟s not. It‟s a

iron sulfide mineral. It‟s similar to the ore that will be mined here. In

order to liberate the metal from the iron sulfide, or the metal sulfide, or

34

the platinum metal gets sulfides, this ore needs to be roasted. They

need to be burnt. It may sound surprising, but fool‟s gold can burn, so

you have enough of it, iron pyrite, it will actually burn. It‟s the sulfur in

the compound, linked to the metal that will burn in the oxidization

process. The product of this reaction is a metal oxide and sulfur oxide.

Metal oxide may be dangerous depending on what metal it is.

However, we‟re not dealing with lead, cadmium, arsenic and these

likes. There may be chromium, we‟ll get to that. The real issue, to my

mind, is the oxidation of sulfur, in that combustion process, it liberates

sulfur dioxide. Sulfur dioxide is a criteria pollutant. It‟s listed, in terms of

national legislation, there‟s limits on the volumes that may be emitted

for processors, and there‟s also limits as to what the concentration of

that agent may be in air. Sulfur dioxide is the sulfurous smell that we

get when we strike a match. If we strike a match, it‟s still appreciable,

but in very large volumes, or concentrations it‟s lethal. Okay, this plant,

when in operation, will not produce sulfur at concentrations that, when

released in an unabated manner, will lead to concentrations that will be

lethal. It will, however, most definitely then exceed the ambient limit. It

means that this roaster, not the smelter, the roaster must have

abatement controls. Those abatement controls are described in the

ambient air quality process. When roasting a sulfide ore, introducing S

OH TWO, there a number of ways in which the S OH TWO may be

abated. In [INAUDIBLE] it may be…its emissions may be reduced. The

easy…

F …[INAUDIBLE] ones for that mine?...

P1 …Well two have been considered. The…possibly the easy, and in the

short term, perhaps, cheaper option would be to scrub the acid gas

with a scrubber, utilizing something like limestone or lime, and that will

form a reaction product. If you‟re familiar with the Marikana Smelter,

they have roasters, I think, I‟m…Peet Smith roasters. The S O two that

came off there first used to be emitted through a tall stack, created a lot

of problems. Then they put in place a scrubbing facility. It is

problematic, and if you want more information, I can discuss it with this

to you, at length, over tea. This scrubbing process creates waste, it‟s

calcium sulfite and calcium sulphate, gypsum, it has to be disposed of.

This is not the way that the EAP has advised the client to go. In this

instance, a sulfuric acid plant will be added to the facility and it will

capture the S O two and value add to this and by catching the S O two

it will manufacture sulfuric acid, which is an industrial mineral. When

you buy a ammonium sulfate to put on your lawn, or on your fields, you

buy the reaction product of ammonia and sulfuric acid. Oaky, so in this

instance, the smelter is less of a concern that the roaster, the major

35

issue is, to my mind, S O two, and this plant will operate a drier before

the material‟s submitted to the roaster and there are also two emission

limits, which the facility has to meet. These limits have been applied to

flow volumes that have been calculated for the proposed plant, and it

has been modeled in the dispersion model, and it confirms, that if the

plant is operated properly, that it is not an issue. No, it is. Look, what

we have to see is there are exceedences, but it‟s, essentially, right on

the pitsand plant. So this is very localized, it‟s not where people and

sensitive individuals will be exposed to this. So you…the

concentrations that you‟ve seen here is…doesn‟t compare with what

you see on the Highveld where there‟s a lot of coal combustion.

P16 Okay, can I just…the river bed?...

P1 …The river is, the river is down here.

P16 It‟s supposed to what? It‟s not going to [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …I don‟t believe that these concentrations are at levels that are of

major concern. Ooh sherbet, I pressed something. No…

F …now it‟s gone…

P1 …is it probably [INAUDIBLE]. I don‟t believe that, that‟s an issue. I

would, at EAP, I‟m much more concerned about dust.

F Can…let‟s elaborate about the roasting plants. Is it smelters?...

P1 …Its smelter. Okay, the smelter follows on the roaster. The smelter is a

closed furnace. There is one concern with a closed furnace and, in

order to smelt the metal ore, and to reduce the oxides, a part of the

charge is submitted, carbon, as a reductant. I can‟t think of a good

analogy, but we use a reductant to reduce metal oxides, like a steel

plant also use coke and tar. The reductant, it converts the rust, the

metal oxide into a metal. Now, in this process, the reduction product is

a reduced metal, which we want, and then there is a byproduct, it is

carbon monoxide. And carbon monoxide is very toxic, and that has to

be managed. However, this is done every day at every coke smelter.

So there are carbon monoxide release balling [?] systems and barely, a

smelter cannot operate in an unsafe condition. So, it is an issue, but it‟s

a localized issue. They may be periodic releases of C O. It‟s that…


P1 …very much localized in the smelter. It‟s a health and safety issue, and

typically, no person will be allowed to enter those areas, without a C O

monitor that will warn them. It‟s much like the old canary in the mine.

36

That C O gas is combustible, and generally it is used, and in this

instance, if will be used to assist in combustion in the roasting process,

if I understand correctly. So, it is an issue that has to be managed, but

you can be safe long before it gets to you, the entire plant, personnel,

and management would be dead. So, it is something that can be

managed, and it is managed, every day in the country.

F I…

P1 …Okay, I‟ll come back…

F …Okay I‟m…

P1 …no, there is one more…

F …Okay.

P1 So,platinum, the platinum group metals are associated with chrome,

okay. So, in the bushveld, South Africa, in the bushveld [INAUDIBLE]

complex, South Africa has the gift, or the curse, of seventy per cent of

the world‟s PGM‟s and seventy per cent of the world‟s chrome. The

World‟s not going to go away. We will need to manage…learn how to

manage this. These are often associated with one another. When

people talk about this platinum reef, it‟s just because platinum is more

economical to take out of that reef than chromium.[BACKGROUND

TALKING] Okay, so, what happens is, when you exploit platinum, with

that comes chromium, and when you do treat chromium internal

processes, it may lead to the oxidization of chromium to higher states.

Hexavalent chromium or Chrome six. It is soluble, it‟s toxic by

inhalation, it‟s, in fact, carcinogenic by inhalation. However, this is not a

problem in closed furnaces, because in a closed furnace, you are in a

reducing atmosphere because of the carbon monoxide. So, before

chrome can oxidize to Chrome six the carbon monoxide will oxidize to

carbon dioxide. So hexavalent chromium generation is not deemed to

be an issue of concern.

F Alright, I‟m going to jump to the next question. I think that‟s answered

in…are you happy with layman‟s terms that those are the main issues

identified. Okay, that…name and then just run through…

P17 Wayne Knight. Okay, I will start with one question then. Why does this

smelter facility have to be where it is? Why would it not be further away

from a sensitive wetland with all the pollutants that you talk about, with

the dust issues, with…particularly the knowledge that Sylvania is a

processor, or a re-processor of low-grade ores, and, myself perceives

this operation as a water mine to facilitate the processing of other

mines‟ low-grade ore. That‟s the reason why you guys are going

37

through all this trouble. Why do you need this here if you‟re not mining

water?

P1 I can‟t answer that question, and I think that question should partly be

answered by technical and the mine‟s economical analysis. The other

part of that answer is in Town and Regional Planning. But what I can

do, is I can try and give you some ideas as to why this is the issue. The

mines excavate ore and the platinum group metals is at a low

concentration. It‟s at forty grams per ton, where other mines mine it at a

hundred grams per ton. Then you must ask yourself, but why is it then

feasible? And the reason is it‟s sitting right at the surface. So you don‟t

have to drive four kilometers. Or two kilometers into the earth. It‟s

sitting at the surface, so it‟s viable to treat those ores. The treatment of

those ores concern first crushing, „cause it‟s blasted, it‟s big rocks. It

has to be crushed, before it can be milled. There is crushing equipment

that will mechanically crush these rocks, that‟s like in a quarry, it will be

crushed down to smaller pieces. Before those sulfides can be

liberated, the material has to be milled, and this has to take place on

site. It‟s part of the mine, you can‟t drive those rocks all that distance.

After milling it goes into a process of flotation. The unique thing about

the sulfide metals are that they‟re actually fatty. So, they‟ve… If you

add soap, or a detergent, to very finely milled material, and you froth it,

the silica and other materials drop out, but the…these sulfide minerals

froth and float up, and this is concentrated. And, at that point, there is a

question that may be raised as to what needs to be done with this

concentrate now? Do we send it someplace else, or do we further

treat it right here? So that is a key question.The… It has to be dried,

firstly, probably, and then it may be roasted. And, following roasting, it

may be smelted. There are very significant advantages in having all

these processes back to back. There are disadvantages in that you

have these emissions, and there is more equipment and more visual

impact. But, as much as a f…on a farming operation, it makes sense to

process as much of your produce locally and not transport these

shoots and roots, then you only need…are focusing on one. It makes

sense to process the lot at locations. So there are energy, water,

transport and various other advantages, and the question that you

pose, why here and why not somewhere else, is very difficult for me to

answer without it giving you such an open ended answer, I‟m afraid.

F Can I ask, can we get a response from, sort of a, our alternative

analysis from the technical guys? Can they give that, sort of, pros and

cons? Is that possible?

P14 I‟m not a technical…

38

F No, I mean to get one, to get a response. Okay, so we must just, we on

our minutes write that, our technical response will be provided in the

minus, or in that comments and response report, to the report.

P17 An additional part of the question, that we need extra response on…An

additional part of the same question that I asked is, how much ore will

be coming from other mines? That‟s something that Sylvania‟s refused

to answer. They say they don‟t know, that they…we can‟t say, we

haven‟t worked the feasibilities. This mine is a water mine to process

ore in Raymond‟s opinion, because of what we see, because of grades

of ore, because of all sorts of things, particularly the shortage of water

in this whole Mokopane area. It makes sense to put a pit in the wetland

so that you can have access to water and not have to use your

competition‟s refining processes. The ore…the amount of ore that‟s on

site, the amount of material that‟s on site does not warrant a smelter

refinery, I mean, we know that. Anglo Platinum transports its ore from

miles to its concentrator at Polokwane. So that‟s the question that

needs to be answered in plain, simple terms, because it will, or should

affect the implications of this whole set up on the water. We‟re

concerned about the wetland and we‟re concerned about the people

water. There‟s a smokescreen, in my opinion.

F We‟ll provide the answer first on how much of the other mines‟ ores.

P1 No, I don‟t think…what I would like to propose, Wayne, is the following,

firstly that Sylvania has did a statement as to why here, and why not

someplace else. At the same time, previously it was indicated that this

smelter would be erected in a manner that would make it mobile, or de-

constructible, modular. And I think we need to get formal confirmation

of that, as well as whether it will be a sole [?] treat facility, and then,

lastly, I think, what we can ask for is a comparison of this technology,

the Conroads and what Anglo‟s is operating. I can already tell you now,

that this is much different. It is a small, is beautiful [?] type process. It is

developed in South Africa. It wasn‟t recognized by these high flying

companies. It took an international company to recognize it,

unfortunately. So I‟m not sold on it, all I can tell you is, it‟s very

different from what is being operated by those others. So, what we also

should do, is note then your concern, that this is a smokescreen.

P17 That‟s good.

F Okay, I‟m going to jump to you for one question at a time, please.

P8 Yes, thank you very much. Once again, we‟re not getting answers. I

want to know, what is the relationship between Sylvania and Ivanhoe

Platinum?

39

F Okay, [INAUDIBLE]…

P? Say that please?

P12 I-van-hoe…

F I‟m…

P14 …Can I answer that?

P1 Identify.

P14 I‟m Anton De Vos from Sylvania, and there is no relationship between

Sylvania and Ivanhoe.

F I‟m going to give you three more follow-ons and then I‟m going to

somebody else.

P8 The reason why I‟m asking this is in response to what Wayne Knight

has asked, because we see that Ivanplats and Aquarius and

Sylvania… on Internet we did some research and we see that they‟re in

a joint venture project, at Mooinooi or somewhere there. What we also

find strange, if that is not so, and there‟s no relationship…

F …you‟ll do this at home [?]…

P8 …if there‟s no relationship, we further find it strange that, at the listing

of Ivanplats, specifically, Ivanplats, I can just mention for the record, is

a mine that, presently they‟ve also applied for a mining right, they both

said they‟re going to be the largest mine, they‟re going to produce more

platinum than all the platinum production in the whole of South Africa. I

find it strange that Mister De Vos says there‟s no relationship because

at the listing of Ivanplats, Mister Stuart Murray, who is the former Chief

Executive of Aquarius, that‟s as he‟s quoted here, and chairman

designated to Sylvania Platinum Limited, told a conference audience

here, that platreef is a very attractive ore body. But the question for me

is, what is the ultimate capital going to be? Noted, that the key to the

project will be, securing necessary refining and smelting capacity

without sinking a large amount of tactical costs into building a new

smelter...

F …a matter of…what‟s the concern with the…

P8 The concern is that what Mister Knight has said, our concern is that

they‟re erecting the smelter here, from this it clearly indicates there is a

relationship Sylvania and Platsreef is a new mine that‟s going to be this

big mine, which is operated…going to be operated by Ivanplats. The

concern is that, exactly what Mister Knight has said, and we want that

40

commitment, from Sylvania that they must give us a commitment that

they‟re not going to transfer ore from other mines. It‟s the largest mine,

and this is what they say, one of the largest mines in the country is

going to be here, and they‟ve already got relationship w…our concern

is they‟re going to transport it here, smelt it, refine it here, and they‟re

going to use the water. That‟s our concern.

F So the concern is that there‟s a possible relationship, which has been

indicated that there is no relationship, and that, because they…the

other party has said they‟re going to be one of the biggest, the concern

is it‟s going to come here to be smelted, on this wetland.

[BACKGROUND TALKING] Can you…

P12 …and that‟s true that…

F …okay…

P12 …because if it‟s the truth, why is it[INAUDIBLE]

F Yes, yes. Is there a comment?A response?Now…

P1 …let‟s get back to the question. I would, if Sylvania has a answer then I

would like to hand it to them, and then, what I can tell you is, from a

tactical, and from a legal point of view what that scenario will entail. Do

you have any comments Anton?

P14 I don‟t really have comments, all I can…what I can say is, and I can‟t

comment on what Mister Stuart Murray said, at some conference, I was

not there, I don‟t know in what context it was, but what Emile said, he

referred to some smelting and things. That does not mean it‟s going to

be here. I mean, what is the significance of that?

P12 If there‟s no relationship, why would he say that?

F Okay.

P14 I cannot comment on why somebody said something.

P12 You did have a problem, you always, bloody can‟t [INAUDIBLE]

[OVERTALKING]…

F Okay can…

P12 …comment to say, he‟s just…

F …Can we get a statement, as we suggested on one of the other points

about what the relationship is and what context that was in…

41

P12 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] they need to have a statement from

Sylvania that they‟re not going to transport ore from… We want an

undertaking from Sylvania then there are not going to transfer ore from

other mines here, and come and process that in an agricultural area.

For whatever reason is that necessary? There enough industrial areas

where they can do it, if they have to do it. The reason why they‟re

doing it here is to utilize the water.

F So, water distance.

P1 I think what we need to do is, is to take one step back, and look at

what‟s proposed here and what is proposed at Ivanplats. I‟m not

familiar with Ivanplats, but I would like us to take a few steps and

consider this. What is being proposed here is fairly small fry, I think.

So, also the technology, the roasting technology as well as the

smelting technology is not a large scale operation. The technology

proposed here, the Conroad process, and the closed smelter is

typically, has not been built on very large scales…

P10 …we‟re not interested [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …No, no, but what I would like to say is also, this facility will have

certain licenses and it will have certain limits. This…it is, pretty much at

its limit, as it stands now. It may be modified slightly, but, to my mind,

that Ivan…the platreef…the Ivanplats, platreef project is massive. It will

require a massive smelter, it will require a massive infrastructure and,

to my mind it…this will not be a suitable place to locate it.

F I think what…I think the concern there is what you apply for, is what

you will get authorized. So, those limits are detailed in the report...

P10 …They‟re concerned, they‟re standing in the way, please…

F …okay…

P12 …yes, they're just doing it to get the foot in the door, and we‟ve def…if

it…if it‟s going to be such a small, insignificant smelter, then it‟s simple,

let them give us then the undertaking they‟re only going to smelt what

they‟re going to do here. That‟s what you‟re saying, so we‟re agreeing

with it. [BACKGROUND TALKING]…

F …Okay, we‟ll note that that needs to be addressed at [INAUDIBLE]…

P12 …No, why don‟t they give it now?...

P1 …Okay, w…

F …Okay we‟re going…

42

P1 …I can make a suggestion…

P12 …we know they won‟t give it now…

F …note this, ja…

P1 …but, I can give a suggestion, and that is [BACKGROUND TALKING]

that…no I can‟t answer on their behalf. But, there is something that is

referred to as the maximum carrying capacity. Just like in farms, so, in

an air fed, and in a water fed, there is something that one can equate

to the maximum that a system can take. And it is possible to, with

some studies, determine that. There is a limit as to what this area can

take, and I believe, not, I believe and I can‟t give you the clear

answers, but I believe that this is in that range. This can‟t seem

intrigued [?] with an order of magnitude, if that makes sense.

P12 But then it‟s also indicated on…

F …Okay, I‟m going to another question. I can come back to you.

P18 You have been lecturing about the outputs from the mines, ne? The

output from the mines, from the mine. How is it…it may be, is it going

to be used as a recharge, how is it going to affect the groundwater? At

your chemistry side…

F …What‟s your name?...

P18 …Alfred, from Water Affairs.

P1 Okay…

F …So, the output of the mine, how will that impact on groundwater,

specifically. So the impact.

P1 There‟s a fairly extensive study that has been done to investigate the

due chemical characteristics of these ores. Although they are sulfide

ores, and the concentration of these sulfides are fairly low, the potential

for the generation of acid mine drainage has been established to be

low, sorry, not low, but non-existent. Although some of these sulfides

may oxidize, the host rock, within which these deposits that the…are

significantly alkaline, so the country rock has orders of magnitude of

capacity with which to absorb any acid, should it be generated. There

are a number of studies that have also been undertaken. Amongst

others, a student of Professor Terrence McCarthy to investigate, the

acid generation potential of these ores. And it‟s confirmed that it‟s low if

not non-existent. So, acid mine drainage, in this mine, like in most

other platinum mines, is not a concern. Unlike gold mines where vast

43

quantities of iron sulfide are present, as in the coal mines where you

also have a lot of iron sulfides. There…

P16 …are there also some [INAUDIBLE]?...

P1 There is always, within industrial activity…with any industrial activity,

where water evaporates, and we‟ll go back to this, where a lot of water

is utilized, and there‟s evaporation, and, in this system, most of the

evaporation takes place off the tailings disposal facility. Because

there‟s salts in the water, and this water is circulated, and the water is

evaporated, there is a buildup of salt. And the groundwater in this area

is already high in total dissolved solids. In some areas such that it

approaches drinking water limits. So that is a concern, the buildup of

salts in the system. And that‟s why there should be no releases of

water to the environment, and that‟s why pollution containment and

water management is a key issue. Another aspect is the tailings

deposition technology. There are various technologies that may be

applied. There‟s conventional tailings, where a dilute slurry is pumped

to a tailings dam, and then there is second tailings disposal that

utilize…that uses less water. These are still issues that the study need

to slowly investigate. So, water is an issue, although acid generation

from the waste rock, from materials in…placed in the pits are not

deemed to be a major issue. There are salts, the issue of buildup of

salts in the system, and this water should not find its way out into the

environment.

F Okay. Who else has question? Yourself? And you‟ve got another one,

and you‟ve got another one. Is there anybody owed? That was my

back, sorry, I didn‟t see, I‟ll go to you first, and then I‟ll come to you

ma‟am, and then our other people here. Just you name again, before

the question.

P15 Thank you, Flippie De Beer. Please bear with me , I‟m Afrikaans

speaking, and not really always understand the English terminologies. I

di…

P1 …Jy kan in Afrikaans vir my vra…

P15 …Kan ek in Afrikaans vir jou vra. Okay, kan ons terug gaan na die

vorige vrae toe…na die water toe, wat ek nie kan verstaan hier‟s

tweeledig. Een is hoekom het julle dit in so klien gebied gedoen. Ek

verstaan julle wil die toevloei kry, julle wil die uitvloei kry vir die water,

maar ek verstaan nie hoekom dit net in so klein gebied gedoen is nie.

F …En dis die rooi blokkie?…

44

P15 …Dis die rooi blokkie, dis punt nommer een. Want almal weet dat, al

die jare wat on hier boer, dat, as die Nyl afkom dan voed di tons

boorgate selfs vyftig, sestig kilometer van die myn af. So ek kan geen

impak sien op daai ding. Hoe‟t julle gemeet dat water onder die grond

na ander gebiede toe vloei nie, en wat gaan die impak wees as daar

dan besoedeling sou plaasvind, en dit kom in daai ondergrondse

stelsel in, wat ons tot vyftig, sestig kilometer verder besoedeling gaan

kry.

F Okay, so, in English, what I understand that question to be is, firstly,

why is the modeling domain the size that it is? So, the red block, why is

the red block that size and in that location? Secondly, when the Nile

does flood, it recharges your boreholes, you‟re saying up to fifty, sixty

kilometres, from where the mine is located…

P15 …yes…

F …so, I think that the third question was that…

P15 …the pollution…

F … the pollution, if it does get into the groundwater, how far does that

spill because of the [INAUDIBLE] that science has placed fifty, sixty

kilometres downstream, I think [INAUDIBLE]…

P12 …and how will it impact…

F …and how…

P12 … the water [INAUDIBLE] use…

P1 Okay…

F …you‟re back…

P1 …You‟ll have to help me. Can I answer in ques…

F …the first one…

P1 …No, not going to answer in quest…can I answer these que…Kane k

hierdie vrae in…vir jou in Engels beantwoord? Dan is dit makliker vir

die administrasie. Moet ek dit vir jou in Afrikaans prober antwoord?

P15 …Ek dink jy verstaan nie eers jou taal nie…

P1 Okay, let me try and do it biligually. Firstly, just for everybody, this is

not the only area that was modeled. The red block is the groundwater

model, there is a much larger Nyl catchment model. So daar‟s…dis

twee modelle. Daar‟s die ouer, die moedermodel wat die hele Nyl

45

opvangsgebied het van sy heel boonste loop hy amlik…amper by die

Pienaarsrivier al die pad af tot verby Mokopane. So dit is die

moedermodel.

P15 …[INAUDIBLE] dat…is dit dan die “surface model”, dit wat nou bo op

loop?...

P1 …Nee, dit is „n…

P15 …loop die grond…

P1 …dit is „n geintegreerde model, maar dis „n waterbalansmodel. This is

and itegrated model and it‟s a water balance model. It looks at rainfall,

it‟s the source of all of the water. It looks at evaporation and evapo-

transpiration and extraction. And tracks water through the entire

catchment. Dit, hierdie model dek elke…dit is eindelik soos „n…dis

soos „n emmer. Die model is soos „n emmer met water wat inloop, en

„n kraantjie wat oopgedraai is, en „n paar gaatjies uit. So daar‟s water

wat inloop, en daar‟s water wat uitloop. En afhangende van hoeveel

water by die onderste kraantjie uitgaan, en hoeveel in die gaatjies lek,

en hoeveel wat bo ingegooi word, styg die water op en af. En as die

water so vining inkom, in die emmer in, dat hy oorloop, dan is daar „n

vloed. Dit is wat hierdie moedermodel doen.

P? …and what does the groundwater [INAUDIBLE]?

P1 The groundwater model is very detailed model. It‟s highly resolved. The

reason why it‟s that size is for a number of reasons, but, [INAUDIBLE],

it is because of the model software, the mathematics that is used to

model this, is limited in the areas that you can model. The larger it

becomes, this modeling domain becomes, the more course you have

to make your…


P1 …as well, but also your model blocks. Each one of these models pops

up the domain into small blocks, and it treats the relationship of water

flows between those blocks, and our computers are limited in the

number of little blocks that they can handle. So, die rede hoekom die

grondwatermodel „n kleiner area is sodat „n mens dit met die nodige

resolusie kan modelleer. As jy „n te groot area modelleer met die

grondwatermodel, dan gaan hy nie die impak van die ontwatering uit

die oopgroef mynputte, sal die model dit nie kan hanteer nie. Of dit sal

„n indi…dit sa…It won‟t do it justice. It won‟t accurately model the

groundwater drawdown. En daarom is daar „n groter moedermodel, en

„n dogtermodel wat deur die moeder gevoer word.

46

P15 Maar my vraag is, hoe gaan jy weet hoe gaan daai myn my impakteer

op vyftig kilos ver…

P1 …okay…

P15 …en dit is [INAUDIBLE] in daai “domain”…

P1 …ja…

P15 …in twee rigtinge uitpomp nie[INAUDIBLE] jy dit net uitpoep [?]…

F Okay, so the question there was that, how does this model then dictate

the impact further afield? From where the model is, okay?

P15 No, no impact at all…

P1 Ja, ek dink daar‟s groot kommer oor die impak van die myn en sy

ontwatering ver weg. Stroom af, asook stroom op en ander dele van

die aquaver, in die Sprinbokvlakte aquaver. Maar dit is giving, en as jy

lank daaroor dink, dan begin dit sin maak, die ontrekking van water hier

het „n definitiewe impak, maar dis grootliks lokaal. En die rede hoekom

dit is, die area is geweldig plat. Die area is geweldig plat en daar…en

die watervloei afdraande.

P17 …is that okay?...

P1 …so sorry?...

P17 …is that okay, because it hasn‟t been confirmed whether it was flowing

down or up of left or what have you…

P1 …no, so the groundwaters flow downhill. So that the …it‟s the de-

watering in a very flat area, the de-watering cone are, generally,

localized, unless there is a major aquifer. So the…


F …ja, let him just finish the area [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P1 …So…

F …can take follow-up questions…

P1 So, the unique feature of the Nyl is that it‟s, essentially, a closed

system except for the flood, flowing out…

P16 …are you saying that?...

P1 …well I‟m not saying this, but you can see it from this. There‟s no water

coming out of the Nyl except during the flood events. The rest of its

47

stored in the aquifer, and it‟s not really flowing in the aquifer, it‟s sitting

there. And the interesting thing is plants then utilize this water and, with

that, concentrate the faults in the water, and this system is not

constant, in this nature, across this entire area, but there are areas in

the Nyl that‟s saline. There are areas in the upper reaches, where

salinity is a natural feature of the system, and this is just as a

consequence of the fact that it‟s so flat, that the only way that water

can get out is with a surface flood event, otherwise, what falls in the

Nyl, stays in the Nyl. It makes it exceptionally unique and amazing. It

is so…

P16 …So that means that thirty or sixty kilometers from that…

P1 …of this abstraction, there shouldn‟t be any impact…

P16 …and the modeling…

P1 …and the modeling…

P16 …and the modeling [INAUDIBLE] fill it [?]…

P12 …It will too, that‟s what I‟ve been saying…

P1 …Look, so what I can tell you is…


F …Hold on, hold on. Talk…

P1 …Okay.

F I think that this point leads specifically to that point…

P16 …specifically leads to the point. We have asked that the studies speak

to a broad group of people, along the reaches of this river, far afield

and, not locally, to study the impact of water levels during flood events.

Now they want to model this thing without speaking to people, who

have years of knowledge in this area, related to this exact point, that

sixty kilometres away boreholes are affected in a flood event. Town‟s

water boreholes go down when there is no water in this river. Now,

excuse me, why are we looking at this local [INAUDIBLE]?

P12 We told him that.

P1 It makes…

F …so the question is, in terms of the model...okay the parent model

looks at the entire Nylsvley basin right, but are you going broader afield

to the Nylsvley basin? Are you still talking about in the Nylsvley basin?

48

P1 We don‟t know exactly…

P12 That‟s what had to be established in the previous study…

F …okay…

P12 I‟m going to expect you to ask him, and…

F So the question is, how far does the Nylsvley ecology, if I can put it that

way, extend? [BACKGROUND TALKING] Okay, lets…

P12 The scientists have been telling us that the way that they can

determine that…that the way they were going to determine that. We

agreed with them on that, was that they‟re going to experience a flood

event. Why they come up with this new model, which is new to us, and

then actually installed equipment and technology in boreholes

wherever. Now we‟re unclear because, [INAUDIBLE], and that was

what we agreed with the specialists, that, that was what they‟re going

to do. Now they‟re changing all of this, now we‟re getting there though

not going to look at the flood events any more. Because that was what

was going to…

P1 …answer…

P12 …answer that man‟s question, Flippie‟s question…

F … Okay, just hold it there…

P1 …Okay, first…

F … Can you respond to that?...

P1 …You will have to help me, because there was whole a lot of things.

So the first thing is, that a flood event causes boreholes to rise. And I

don‟t think…they may be correlated, but I don‟t think they‟re causal,

and that‟s why I‟m saying this, I‟ll try and draw this…

[LAUGHTER][BACKGROUND NOISE]

P1 …I know…

[LAUGHTER][BACKGROUND NOISE]

P1 …I know you must think this is mad, but, this is what‟s been confirmed

by Professor Terence McCarthy, and this is the interesting thing, and…

F …Here Theo, let me hold that for you…

P1 …ja, can you just hold it. So what happens is, a lot of precipitation

takes place and a lot of it‟s in the Waterberg. Okay, you have streams,

49

you have a stream running here, transporting boulders and rocks this

big in a rivulet, and as it comes down here, it hits the flat and there‟s no

more potential energy to carry it, and all of this water is thrown out

there, and all of that water goes into the ground. And this process

continues and continues until groundwater levels rise, to the effect that,

groundwater rises to the surface, and then goes on to the clay layer to

form the flood. So, that is the way in which Professor Terrence

McCarthy describes the development of a flood. I‟m just here as a

messenger, and the logic of that is, groundwater levels in boreholes

must rise, on average, before there can be a flood. Okay, so that is just

my explanation. I know it is…it boggles the brain, but this system

boggles the brain. So that is the answer to that question…

P16? …and…

P1 …However, can I just…

P16 …not done with it?...

P1 …can I just come back to you? I‟ve eluded to this during the

presentation, that in de-watering, or de-watering the system, there is

effects to the floods, and that is all this item in the water balance

referred to as transmission losses. Unfortunately, I cannot yet explain

to you what of this number is related to a diminished flood, „cause this

transmission loss is [INAUDIBLE] to surface flow, but not only surface

flows in the channel, okay…

F …right across…

P1 …So, what I can say is, de-watering, significant de-watering has

effects, sorry, has effect on transmission losses. So significant de-

watering may have impact on that flow.

P16 …you say that is preliminary model…

P1 …It‟s a preliminary model, and the thing is, this is…we‟re digging into it.

F …Okay, I‟m going to go to the lady there for a question. It‟s listen, I

don‟t want to skip other questions that are related to other issues. I

know water is the main issue, so I‟m sure a lot of these are going to be

linked together. So this lady first, and then I‟m going to…

P7 He might not even need to answer. Marion Mengell, friends of Nylsvley.

Just a few comments, statements to start with. First thing is I think it‟s

very hard of you to ask us, non-experienced people, not to ask

questions as the presentation went ahead. It‟s very hard for ordinary

lay people, that aren‟t used to these type of situations to hold onto

50

questions. I think you made it quite tough for us. Secondly, is, you see,

how does the model predict, you actually use the word, predict flood

events? I‟m afraid this, only the good Lord can do it. You said that, that

one nice one where you had them, the red and the blue coming up and

down. I don‟t see how you could, possibly, have predicted the flood

events. Once they‟re going, you can estimate the amount, but not

predict flood events. That‟s the same as I don‟t need to answer it. Also,

most of this information, was done on old information from the Nylsvley

area. I don‟t know if you noticed, the other people, that those graphs

were old fashioned type print. I‟m very skeptical about those readings.

I‟m not happy about that, at all. Another one is, there‟s still absolutely

no mention about staff quarters, where it…all those other social

impacts, which is going to have a huge impact on the people here. Not

just the water and the smelter and the pollution dust, and then, no need

to make comments, but my real commen…my real question now is,

you said, several times, that it would be possible to put the water back

into the aquifer, to recharge the…with the aquifer, but you‟ve also said

there‟s a high salt limit, a high salt amount in the water, and shouldn‟t

be released back into the environment.

P1 Okay, let me start with the prediction. I‟m a scientist, and I work with

other scientists and we develop models. These models are used to

make predictions. Now, when I show you this graph, and I refer to the

term “predict”, you need to take this in the following terminology. The

model was given input, the model was given, specifically and, most

importantly, rainfall.

P16 …rainfall, you see [BACKGROUND TALKING]

P1 So the rainfall, [LAUGHTER] use…

P16 …[INAUDIBLE] that it is most profound, isn‟t it [BACKGROUND

TALKING]

P1 Look, it is profound, in that, rainfall is quite difficult in that it‟s not

uniform over the entire area, and there‟s a paucity [?] of rainfall

measurement. Unfortunately, we don‟t maintain and don‟t…we used to

keep better rainfall data in the seventies and eighties, than we do today

when we have automatic stave [?]. This is sad. That is the

[INAUDIBLE]. So, the model is fed with input data. It is a construct of

the natural system, and that construct is fed with input data, and the

model then, is used to predict, and when I say predict, the model then

predicted flow events, in these instances. And the model predictions, or

the model‟s output rather, coincide. A true prediction, would have been

to marry this water balance model with a weather forecast model, and

51

then to predict a flood. This is being done, and, if you‟d be interested in

talking about it, we can discuss it over tea. [BACKGROUND TALKING]

Okay, so when I say predict, it‟s a ability of the model to simulate an

actual system. So, that‟s the word prediction, I hope that makes sense.

Then, with respect to the graphs that look old, I think you have a point,

this is a model that was developed when…or it had its baby shoes in

the days of old. However, it has been, continually improved, including

with…including a groundwater module, which was developed by…also

by a South African, [NAME] Farming. Sorry, I don‟t think he‟s actually

South African, he‟s from [BACKGROUND TALKING]…

P7 …it doesn‟t matter…

P1 …In any case, I think it…to me it does matter. This is a globally

recognized model, developed by South Africans which we should be

proud of, which has the ability to model the system. Had it not been for

them, we wouldn‟t have been able to analyze and predict impact…

P16 …Are you saying, this has the ability to model the [INAUDIBLE]? Is that

the statement you‟re making [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P1 …Okay, so yes, that‟s the prediction. Look the graphs look old. I…

P16 …Is that a statement?…

P1 …Yes, it‟s a statement…

P16 …understand, that the model…

P1 …has the…

P16 …[INAUDIBLE] predict…

P1 …has the ability to model the natural system. Okay, then the graphs

look old, I‟m dory about it, but it…they are very…they‟re perfectly

functional. The output data, out of this model can be drawn into Excel,

and then you can make nice looking, fancy…[BACKGROUND

TALKING] Okay, so, and staff quarters and social issues, I can‟t

comment on that, except that, Sylvania, they have, explicitly, stated

that no housing on the mine, or housing in the…in town. Can you

please elaborate on this.

P14 Ja, well, there‟s not much more to say about it. The intention is,

definitely not, to put any worker‟s quarters, or anything, on the

properties. They will be accommodated in their existing places where

they stay.

52

P1 With respect to aquifer recharge, and line thirty seven, which is excess

water to irrigation. Quite right, as indicated, it can be used for aquifer

recharge, so, instead of this going to town, or to crops, what can be

done, is this can be put down into Grass Valley and recharge the

aquifer. This will, however, be groundwater taken from this side, and be

put back into the groundwater on that side. So, in that respect, it won‟t

be used to dispose of saline effluent arising in the process, where

water or salts can concentrate. It is groundwater going back to

groundwater, in that sense. However, we cannot advocate, ever that

any of the process water be used for aquifer recharge.

F Alright, I‟m going at the back and then the front. I don‟t think I missed

anybody else, it was that lady… it was the two of you again, and then

you‟ve got another comment. Okay, start with you.

P17 Always love to say…The first thing is on the recharge, apparently it‟s

high in nitrates, so it‟s not suitable for suitable for town water, it‟s full of

nitrates, you put it on agricultural land, it‟s polluting, so what‟s the p…

you know, it‟s a comment. I want to go back to your graph please Theo,

on your model‟s predictions [SILENCE] Okay, and I‟m…

F The one with the floods?...

P17 The flood events, the predictio…ability to pred…ja. This first…I‟d like to

start with asking a few questions around the model, and then,

elaborate on that, so I‟m going to ask for some latitude ma‟am.

F Ja, so I‟m going to give you two or three just so we don‟t…or, well, let

me write them down.

P17 Okay, so what I want to ask here is, is this based on Doctor Du Toit‟s

study? Is this related, at all, to Doctor Du Toit‟s study?

P1 I will, I will, do you want me to answer…

P17 …Well, what baffles me, completely, about Doctor Du Toit‟s study and

his recommendations, that Sylvania, and yourself, don seem to have

picked up on, is that he did a model that was based on a homogenous

groundwater situation, or homogenous soil structures, [BACKGROUND

TALKING] and then he simulated a extreme fracture, and, on the basis

of those two, the conclusion in his study was, that they are, basically,

as good as nothing, because it‟s neither homogenous, nor is it

fractured to the extent that he predicted. So, that study is, pretty much,

not helping any of us, in the process, and he went on to say, we need

to simulate…not simulate, we need to observe what happens in a

flooding event.

53

F I think quickly [INAUDIBLE] clarify that comment...

P17 …Alright…

F …Before you comment on the model.

P17 …Okay.

P1 Okay, recharge and nitrates, as indicated previously, those nitrates are

associates with certain areas of the Bushveld igneous complex. It‟s

something that studies has been done, it‟s unique, it‟s naturally high

nitrate in the ground, it may have been aggravated by agricultural

fertilization. However, it‟s now put on crops and they need nitrates, so it

shouldn‟t be an issue. With respect to the WSRM 2000 or the Pitman

model, this is a model that totally different from the model that Doctor

Du Toit, that it uses. This model is a catchment scale water balance

model and Doctor Du Toit uses mudflow, which is a finite elements

model that resolves groundwater flow by breaking an area up into small

block, and those small blocks, you have to characterize it. What type of

geology it is, what‟s its conductivity etcetera. So these are two separate

models. The Pitman model is the mother mo…it‟s the parent model,

that tracks water through the entire catchment, through various flow

components…

P17 …Is this the Pitman?...

P1 …This is the Pitman model…

P17 …okay…

P1 …It was the Pitman model, and the reason why the name has been

changed to WSRM, if I can tell you that, is Doctor Pitman did a lot of

work with the Water Research Commission, funded a lot of the

development of this model, and Water Affairs eventually bought into it,

and also funded further development of the model, and then it was

almost nationalized. This model has been used to model many of our

more important catchments. So, it was changed from Pitman model to

the WRSM model, and it‟s come back to Pitman now. Now, the

scenario is, why Doctor Giep models scenario is, in the model you will

never, I mean, let me rather stay with this graph. In the model, with

respect to a model, there will always be limitations, short of drilling the

place full of boreholes, you will need to make certain assumptions, and

that‟s the skill of modeling.

P17 …well we…

P1 …is to…

54

P17 …we want to know what the assumptions are, because of the

[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P1 …Okay, okay…

P17 …method you‟re referring to…

P1 So, but the thing is, the uniqueness of the system, need not be ignored,

or done injustice by assumptions. In this groundwater model of Doctor

Giep, there‟s two scenarios which is, essentially, an attempt to almost

define the corners of and envelope, or a window, and the idea is that if

you make a high road or a low road or a conservative assumption, then

you will know that it…the realities will not be beyond that, but between

those two scenarios, and the reason why this is done is, essentially,

often to save costs. If you can, by literature and certain assumptions,

indicate that this is flawed, patently, it‟s not even close, then you don‟t

even have to go and drill. If you see that, it‟s like a traffic light, you get

a red, a green or an orange, if you get a green, then you know you‟re

safe, you‟re well away from any problem, if you get an orange, you

need to go back and investigate, and this is the issue is…

P17 …if there‟s a red, you should just walk away…

P1 …That‟s it, and, essentially, the issue here is, as you can see, there

are orange lights.

P17 Okay so…

F I‟m going to…

P17 …you…

F …give you one or two and then…

P17 …you haven‟t answered my question the way I would have liked to

have seen it done, but if you can go back, and humour me for a little

while longer, please go back to that graph with the predictions. You

seem very happy that those predictions are great. Well I see major

flaws there, so the other part of the question I have is, has this got

anything to do with modeling underground water and surface water,

they're connected. I see you‟re not in agreement? So what I see

immediately there, when I look at…because I see, in one instance it

underestimates it, and in two instance in this whole history, it

significantly, not a little bit, I mean more than thirty per cent,

overestimated the amount of water. Now what I see there is, oh my

goodness, where‟s the water gone? You‟re assuming that there is a

separation of clay and surface layer water, and that‟s not happening.

55

That‟s what I see happening there. That‟s why you‟ve over-predicted

the amount of water flowing off. You‟re assuming that the water‟s now

flowing according to Terrence McCarthy, [INAUDIBLE] it‟s going

somewhere else. And the other thing that I see there is that you haven‟t

taken into account the influence of the Zebediela faults, and the other

faults, and that‟s another possibility of where the water‟s going, so, for

me, that says to me, red light, we don‟t know what‟s the hell‟s going on

here if the model falls apart. Yes, I‟m a layman, I hear your arguments,

and I hear lots of other people‟s arguments, particularly, Doctor Piet

Prinsloo‟s arguments, and I do not see any comfort, in your graph, your

model‟s ability to predict what‟s happening to water, except, that when

it rains a lot there‟s a lot of flooding. [LAUGHTER].

P1 Wayne, that was quite a lot, but I think, for...


P1 …no, for a layman, you mark certainty aspects, and I‟ll try and talk you

through these one by one. First thing is, and I‟ve mentioned this to you

a bit earlier, is that there‟s signal and there‟s noise, and just like you

never have a perfect TV signal always, or there is a bit of noise on the

line, or whatever…

P17 …get back to the flood event please…

P1 …so, unfortunately, due to the topography, and the characteristics of

this hydrograph, and its locations, the…this…its signal, that it gives

you, this measure, this measured signal, is not entirely true either. So

we sit with two singing [?], the one is the model, which is not entirely

true, and we sit with the measurements which is not entirely true, and

that is a limitation of the world we live in. So, it has certain…it, with it

comes certain risks. I will tell you that straight away, okay. So what you

see is, in certain instances, and specifically, what I take from this, is

that the larger the flood, the more over-prediction the model would

give. Do you agree? So when the flood is small, the model is good, the

model doesn‟t work so well…

P17 …No, I don‟t agree with that, because the amplitude of the little one is

double…

P1 …fair enough, but it‟s one of the larger floods, but, in any case, so…

P17 …I‟d have [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …so, back to the q…the question is do we throw this away, or do we

see what we can…what this can tell us?

56

P16 …it‟s always [INAUDIBLE] that can‟t be used…

P1 …Okay, well, if you try Department of Water Affairs…

P16 …To what end? To what end? What‟s the use?…

P1 …to plan water resource allocation…


P16 …Let‟s, ja, let‟s see [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …So, now this…look at the date. So, I think the important thing,

Wayne, that is touched upon, is what…and the model ha…may have

its limitations, but this model, correctly, models the whole process of, at

first, groundwater levels are low, they need to be first recharged, and

then a flood event can take place. So the model has that debility…

P17 …but then it‟s received [?] in the clay layer…

P1 …Well, what it does, and I‟m coming back to this, to the transmission

losses, it indicates that with…the more abstraction there is, the

more…the greater the Impact to the flood, okay. So, but, what we need

to understand here is…

P16 …but that‟s why this…

P1 …just hang on…

P16 …[INAUDIBLE] they didn‟t…

P1 ..no, sorry what the…

P16 …got customers [?]…

P1 …No, this area is just the groundwater model. What I‟m trying to…

P16 …[INAUDIBLE]..

P1 …no, no…

P16 …[INAUDIBLE] you finish…

P1 …So, what I‟m trying to illustrate is this graph is of the entire

catchment. This water coming out here, right, is mostly water coming

from upstream. We want to try and quantify that, okay. Let me…but

the…

P17 …see, okay, what we‟re saying is we don‟t agree that it‟s accurate at

all…

57

P1 …okay, but what I‟m saying is, and if we have agreement is, that,

that…most of that flood comes from upstream, most of that water does

not arise in this area, it comes from upstream. However, and this is

what we need to look at, is that if there is a lot of abstraction in the

area, there are transmission losses, which means there is an effect on

the flood. However, you can‟t just read transmission losses equal effect

on the flood. Transmission losses is a combination of effects to surface

flow, and the surface flow in the system is not exclusively within that

channel. I know…

P16 …Is that why you‟ve got this area?...

P17 …Yes, yes it is…

P1 …okay…

P17 …That‟s a massive discrepancy, and we‟ve been pointing out those

massive wastes…

P1 …Look, look…

P16 …Ja, so [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P1 …I…Just hang on, Wayne. So, what I would like to do is to say, that

this model is here, it is not yet configured adequately to be able to

answer that question. I‟m in full agreement with you that there is

something that needs to be further investigated…

P17 …What?...

P1 …and that is the impact of de-watering on the flood event, and…

P17 …what do you mean, that there‟s no other fractures, breaks…

P1 …okay…

P17 …water is going somewhere else, which is something we‟ve been

screaming about all the time…

P16 …and that‟s [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P1 …Okay, just one thing at a time. [BACKGROUND TALKING] So we

can get back to that just now. So, what we are saying is, that this is

preliminary, we‟re giving you our progress, and we‟d like to get your

criticism, but what…this is something that we are look at, okay. It‟s, the

answer is not there, but we‟re getting there. So, I bring you back to

observing flood, that is absolutely the first prize, however, there‟s…

P16 …that‟s the unfortunate [INAUDIBLE]…

58


P1 …Okay, just wait two months, that the rain it‟s raining now, we‟ll

hopefully see it, which we would desperately like to see…


P1 …No leave her, it‟s fine…

P7 …we‟re sorry for chipping [?] in, we‟re talking about the de-watering

and not having [INAUDIBLE] flood. I‟m sorry, but my thing

[INAUDIBLE] water [INAUDIBLE] impact on this extreme flood time,

when this flood have plenty of water.

P1 I like your water balance that you did in your head. You‟re a hundred

per cent correct, and I think that is where a lot of the transmission

losses come from. The flood is actually dampened. If you abstract

here, it takes longer for retards to get to the point where you get a

flood, so abstraction in the system, is potentially affecting the flood.

However, what we‟ve seen is that one…the big loser is evapo-

transpiration, it‟s plants that are robbed of their water, and, in turn, the

flood, to some extent, the picture [?] is that, generally, groundwater

levels would be higher, trees would be able to access that water

longer, grow bigger. We extract that water in competition with the trees,

and they get less, we get more.

P It‟s just along the lines [INAUDIBLE] not trees.

P1 But this…these is…there‟s actually vast areas, which is not on the

flood plain, but in…on the plain, which is within reach of the

groundwater.

F Okay, I‟d…

P16 …now it‟s just…it‟s for this, but it‟s just…may I just ask this…

F …Okay, are you happy? You‟ve got one or two more model questions.

Can she jump in?…

P …Yip, it‟s just, [BACKGROUND TALKING] Ja, let her jump in, I‟ll get

her later…

F16 …[INAUDIBLE] very nice. I‟m not a mathematician, I‟m not a

statistician, I‟m not a chemist, but, my observation of the same

question that Flippie‟s asked, ja, this area here, why have you used this

red area here? I can give you a small idea. This area is highly

abstracted, so, you get your high abstraction results there, which then

have implications on your transmission losses over here. Am I right?

59

P1 Okay.

P16 Okay, so if you move this to a more reform model, a true model of the

area, [INAUDIBLE] abstraction, because this is…

P1 …can I…

P16 …abstracted. On my talk? Okay, the implications of having the model

exactly right, has big implications over here. Over here…

F ..[INAUDIBLE].

P1 Okay, so, look, I think don‟t confuse the window out of the parent

model, into the daughter model, with the parent model. What we see

here, I can give to you, in a few days‟ time, I just need to request it from

the specialist , for any area, or parcel of land, or, I don‟t want to say

“commit” to any parcel. It‟s been broken down into catchments, and

the very last catchment, was cut into two, so that this catchment forms

a window out of the parent model, into the groundwater model. So, this

information is available for the entire catchment. So, there is significant

abstraction here, but there are other areas where more abstraction is

taking place. So, what you are seeing now, is you‟re looking out a

window, out of the parent model, to the area where the groundwater

model takes…is operated. And the reason for that is to indicate how

this parent model will inform the daughter. However, we can also look

in other areas. And, Marion, I would like to involve you, we would, by all

means, give you a scenario or something that we can look at what the

impact is of abstraction activities in the area of this Nature Reserve.

That is available, and I…that‟s the least that I can offer you. So this is a

snapshot in this area, but the information is available for the entire

catchment. Why we‟re looking at this is firstly, because it feeds the

groundwater model, but secondly, it‟s also the area…it‟s the sort

of…it‟s the last bit of the Nyl where it‟s still a flood plain, wetlands

driven system, before it goes into a traditional river, so, I hope that

answers your question.

P16 It‟s just, you know, the previous examples that were given to us…being

given to us, particularly the two thousand flood incident, you remember

that, we marked specific years, very high rainfall, flood which omitted

from the information over a number of years, because it increased the

volumes. Not this that we‟re dealing with here, [BACKGROUND

TALKING] it goes up to…Who of you remember that story? Where they

fed us hundreds of years of statistics and clearly left out two thousand,

it was very interesting. So, that‟s why I‟m very skeptical that this is

same kind of manipulation of data, of statistical elimination of certain

areas that skew the outcome.

60

F I‟m going to come this [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P1 Hillary, so the thing is, with respect…

P16 …typical…

P1 …Okay, no that‟s fine I…you…

P16 …but has this been done publicly before?...

P1 …No, I think, saying to you, now, as was then, those images are

satellite images, of flood events, okay. The satellite has an overpass

rate, of once every month, or something like that. And it can only image

the area provided there‟s no cloud. There was also a time, it‟s the

Landsat family of satellites, where some of th…the one satellite went

out of commission, it failed…

P16 …So there was no other source of information that we could have used

to put it [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P1 …No, No, I‟m not saying that at all. What I presented to you was

available satellite imagery of flood events. It was also utilized in the

Water Research Commission study. I was, at no…at no time did I tell

you that this is the entire flood history, as documented by a satellite

that is perfectly positioned and can see through clouds…

P16 …I‟m just pointing out that …

F …Alright, I think it‟s…

P16 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] problem, and I want [INAUDIBLE]

[OVERTALKING]…

F …pointed out….


P1 …communication problem ma‟am. I would like to…I can provide you

with the paper authored by Professor Terrence McCarthy where that

was used. In fact, I have it in the dog box…

F I‟m going to…I‟m just going to…sorry. I need to just let this gentleman

have an opportunity, and then I‟ll come back to…then it‟s…Is it

Flippie?...


F …Right Flippie, and then I‟ll come back to you and then ma‟am from

the…

61

P12 Theo, I just want one answer from you, yes or no, I don‟t… and please,

not with the however and however and however, just yes or no. We

agreed with you, and we agreed with the specialist, Doctor Du Toit, that

the flood event has to be seen, [BACKGROUND TALKING] and, is it

going to be seen?

P1 I don‟t know.

P12 Not, is it going to be seen, is it going to be…Is a flood event going to be

used to determine what the zone of impact is?

P1 I don‟t know. Let me answer you this way…

P12 …because that‟s what we agreed…

P1 …and, Emile…

P12 …you said yes…

P1 …Okay, I…

F …Okay [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P1 …I said, at the time, yes. Let me tell you what I have to do as an

environmental assessment practitioner. Okay, I need to make, at least,

that‟s my interpretation, that there‟s adequate information to make an

informed and defensible decision, okay. That is the absolute reference

point. From there, it was the view that there is not adequate certainty,

and understanding of the system, within the group of specialists, and

within the model, the groundwater model, that was set up at that time,

to be able to state, with adequate certainty. So, at the time, we said it is

our view that we need to see a flood event, and to measure it, to have

adequate certainty. That is still our reference point. However,

[BACKGROUND TALKING] [OVERTALKING] No, no…yes…but

please, please hear me out. Please hear me out. If [INAUDIBLE] you

know, I‟m not capable of understanding all of this, if this reference

group of specialists is of the opinion, that they have enough information

to make a statement, that they are confident enough in their

understanding, and in the models then that is a decision that will be

made then. However, first prize remains a flood event. How…but, if

there‟s adequate information, to make an informed and defensible

decision, it will be for the group of specialists to make that decision and

to revise their first statement. As scientists, we do not, religiously,

adhere, in all instances to an assessment or a statement. We develop

hypotheses, we test them again and again and again, and once they‟ve

been tested „til the cows come home, then we refer to them as

theories. So, if we have a theory, if we get to the point where we have

62

a theory of the Nylsvley, where our hypotheses have been tested

adequately, then that group may make that decision. However, I will

confirm, that the first prize, and my wish is to witness, and measure, a

flood event.

P12 …Yes, can I just make a comment to that please?...

P1 …I…

P12 …just, I will go please. One comment, however, if that is done without

the flood even and decided like that by the specialists, and by yourself,

then, however, it is not according to our agreement, contrary to our

agreement. Our agreement was a flood event, and you‟re not keeping

your word.

P7 …I have a comment to say…

F …OKAY…

P7 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] [COUGHING] for me, is that flood

events are never the same. It‟s…

F …ja…

P7 …it‟s all the people here that live locally will know, that you can have a

small flood, then you can have a big flood…

F …okay so…

P7 …It‟s a variable…

F …the comment is that floods are not the same. I‟m going to go to

Flippie, „cause he‟s had his hand up for a very, very, very long time.

P15 Tony [?] net presies nou wat sy hier gesê het. Ek meen ek nou die hele

lewe lank hier bly. Jy kan voel partykeer het jy „n onder-Nyl vloed,

partykeer het jy „n bo-Nyl vloed, dan kom jou vloed nooit duer verby

ons uit nie en partykeer het jy „n hele-Nyl vloed. Nou, my punt is, en ek

verstaan nou jy sal maar aankom met jou tekeningtjie daar, en hy‟s

baie mooi, dit…hy word nie eers vol van voor die water in die berg

afkom, en dan vol, dan hou hy op, op die klei. Maar, het julle al gedink,

twintig kilos verder van die biet…klei lag is daar „n gaat waar die water

ingaan, en wegraak. Ek bedoel dit is hoe dit gebeur. [INAUDIBLE] wat

gebeer, en dis wat ons vir julle probeer sê, ek stem saam, daar‟s „n

kleilaag wat vorm en hy‟s… water kom op en dan begin die vloed, ons

almal weet dit, maar, soos wat hy vloei, vorentoe, is daar krake en

smere in die grond, en selfs in die kleilaag, en dat dit deurkyfer [?] en

dis hoe ons riviere onder die grond gevoed word, wat dan weer in die

63

teenoorgestelde rigiting vloei, by my vloei die rigting weg van die Nyl

af, met ander woorde, die ondergrondse poel water by ons, loop weg

van die Nyl af, want ander woorde, soos wat ek…by ons lyk is, dat die

Nyl voed on ondergrondse riviere, en dis preside wat gebeer…

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] waar is jy?...

P15 …Ek is naby Roedtan [?]

P1 …is jy [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …Okay, wait, wait for the mic…


F …Well, we kind of get that. [LAUGHTER] We‟re just saying that…


F …Okay, ja. You can ask that [INAUDIBLE].…

P1 …And, no, no I just want to first find the area on the map…

P15 …between Roedtan and Oewerpan [?] there on the M1. On…yes.

Okay, there‟s it…

F …Here, here…

P15 …okay there‟s it…

P1 …Here?...

P15 …Yes…

P1 …okay…

P15 …There by Roedtan, you take the triangle…

P1 …okay…

P15 …Where the triangle is turn up…

P1 …okay…

P15 …so where you see eleven, that‟s where my farm is…

P1 …so, this here…

P15 …Ja.

P1 Okay, I‟ve got interesting news for you. You fall in the Olifants River

catchment.

64

P15 I know, but [INAUDIBLE] [LAUGHTER] but the catchment is a

catchment…

P1 …but…

P15 …and the catchment depends on how they had to vote that, and I…

P1 …now, now…

P15 …but I can solve it for you and I can [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P1 …No, I hear you, and this is the interesting thing, is the catchment is

very poorly defined in this area…

P15 …ja…

P1 ..Okay. There‟s a Doctor Garfield Krige, that‟s done a surface water

study here, and he‟s done an interesting analysis, and he has an

hypothesis, but he is of the opinion that, in this area here there‟s

leakage, groundwater leakage out of this system, into the Olifants.

However, we‟ve tried to model this, and if it‟s the case, it is fairly low

volumes, but, what we do see, however, is that these floods are

generally…when there‟s a proper flood, proper, then you have

repeated large storms that course over the area extensively. However,

you can have upper floods, and you can have lower floods, and you

can have stocky floods, if you‟d like to. But, the big difficulty is to

actually untangle the effects of large, good rainfall events and the flood,

because they are mostly associated. En dit is, die probleem is om te

sê, my boorgat is baie beter maar is dit die reen of is dit die vloed

gewees?Nou, ek sal baie graag hierdie effek wil laat notineer. Dit is iets

wat die span na kyk. Ek kan vir jou wys, maar volgends die modelle, en

die groundwaterdiepteverkniesingmeters [?], askies, is dit… die

hoeveelheid water wat van hierdie kant af, die kant toe loop, kannie

baie wees nie.

P17 Hoekom nie?Al besef julle nie, maar vir my is dit...Hoekom nie?...

P1 …Dis baie plat, Wayne. It‟s very flat, so if you…

F …okay, I‟ve got that…

P1 …you need a gradient to have high flow.

P17 …It doesn‟t matter how that pressure [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …Okay, I‟m just going to have a follow up and then I‟m coming to

you…

65

P? …underground, and they have the crops growing on it [INAUDIBLE]

[OVERTALKING]

F Sorry, we‟ve just…one comment at a time…

P? Tony, ek‟s Tien…ek wou dis…dis nie Tony, ne, wat‟s jou naam?

F …no, Theo…

P2? …Sorry…

P1 Nee, moenie worry nie.

P2? Theo, ek stem met jou saam, in „n mate, dat jy sê, as jy bo die grond

gaan kyk, hardloop die water af Olifants toe, en dis hoekom ons

geklasifiseer, word Olifants opvangsgebied, en die snyp…Ons is baie

laer deur die snypunt as jy daarna kyk, so. Maar as hy ook gaan kyk

wat gebeur by ons as jy ondergrondse water…loop nie noodwendig,

hoe die geografiese gebied geval is nie, dis nie altydso nie. Partykeer

het ek al gesien, party van my gate loop noord-oo…noord-suid ook,

maar ek meen ok dit kan dalk net vir „n rukkie wees, ek dink nie dis die

“general flow” nie, maar, wat ek probeer sê is, ek dink daar‟s verseker

baie meer water wat daar deurgaan as wat julle dink. Ek kan vir jou,

byvoorbeeld sê daar‟s party jare wat ons „n baie droe jaar gehad het,

reenvalgewys op Roedtan, wat ek vyfhonderd milliliter was, ek sal die

korrelasie van hom kry ek het gestatistiek, maar die Nyl het afgekom,

maar daar‟s baie hier in Nysltroom gereen, so dit was „n groot bo-vloed

wat afgekom het tot by ons onder. Ja, van Nylstroom af reg deur tot

daar onder. En, kan jy glo, daai selfde jaar bo by ons boorgate

uitgeloop, maar ons het nie reen gehad nie, so dis wat ek vir jou prober

sê so, uit praktyk uit, sonder enige toetse, se ek vir jou daar‟s definitief

„n konneksie.

F Okay. I think that comment‟s noted. I‟m going to jump to Wayne, and

then, is there somebody after Wayne? [BACKGROUND TALKING]

P17 The groundwater modeling.

F Okay…

[SILENCE]

P1 The modeling domain, Wayne?

P17 Ja. The one where you say that the effect of with grout, without

grouting homogenous, without grouting and factoring…

P1 …Sorry, I‟ve gone to the fact…fi…the naval problems…

66

F …that one?...

P17 No, the mod…the actual…where you show an expansion and

contraction.

P1 Okay, that‟s the model output, those are to [INAUDIBLE]

[BACKGROUND NOISE], so I can get to that. No grout, and fault,

that‟s the worst case, no grout, no fault, which one do you want to see?

The worst case scenario? The one with the…

P17 No grout, fault, ja.

P1 I‟m just going to pause it quickly, it goes…

P17 I‟d like to know what the real assumptions around that were.

P1 Okay, so…

F Let me put it back for you first.

P17 And then I‟d like it back for questioning please.

P1 Okay, I can‟t give you the full set of assumptions, but this is a model,

and, in this model, the same regional characteristics were provided to

the model, and this comes from like…that this is that basalt, this is

Waterberg, this is Bushveld igneous complex, and then they all have

the unique geological and groundwater conditions. So, the model is set

up, according to geological maps, Water Affairs boreholes that‟s been

drilled, boreholes that‟s been drilled by the mine etcetera. So the

sceneries, and most of the model‟s scenery is, essentially, constant

and very reflective of reality. Then two scenarios, three scenarios are

developed. And the one is to say, well, we know that there‟s a

Zebediela Fault here and then we know that there‟s faulting into this

area. This fa4ulthas got a name as well, but I can‟t now recall what it‟s

called…

P17 …[INAUDIBLE] fault right?...

P1 …There‟s a few so, the majority of them actually sit in Grass…in the

Grass Valley area. Okay, so, now these faults are there, but they may

not, actually, be conductive to the extent that one may expect them to

be, in that, this area…the water in this area, is extremely rich in calcium

and silicates. So, a lot of these faults and fractures are fused with a

cement, if you‟d like to. So, the question is, to what extent…and, but

not all of them are, so the question is to…there‟s a question that the

model aims to answer is, is it really fully cemented up, and when it

faults it…although…

67


P1 …although they‟re there…

P17 …so, [INAUDIBLE] boreholes recur there right?...

P1 …Although they may be there, they may not be conductive.

P17 But they must be, because of the boreholes.

P1 No, you could…there the understanding is actually that this area has

been extensively fractured, I mean, essentially the equivalent of taking

a big block of glass, flexi-glass, this glass, and smacking it with a

hammer, it shattered. But, in that shattered glass…

P16 …now it‟s glass…

F …Okay, listen to him…

P1 …No, its fine...

P16 …[INAUDIBLE] [LAUGHTER]…

P1 In that fractured mass, which is now more like a sponge, there is the

potential for larger areas of, much higher, relative conductivity…

P17 …right…

P1 …however, from cores that have been drilled at inspections, it is clear

that a lot of this has been cemented, not in all areas, but mostly, so you

have a sponge that is partly blocked…clogged, but it‟s still a sponge.

And then, the model says, well, we have a sponge that‟s partly

clogged, now, is there…what‟s the effects of having massive regional

areas of conductivity? To…and just to answer your question, you don‟t

need these aquifers for having these good boreholes, you need a good

sponge. If you have a good sponge that can absorb most of your rain

water, then you‟re A and away.

P17 But…

F ...Okay, wait Wayne just…

P17 …on the same…no, well let me…

F …I want to get the mic to you.

P17 But, on the same token, as drill as you may, or have tried to do, you

can‟t hit the ones that you‟re looking for, we know that from Doctor

Giep‟s studies. In other words, there are channels that carry a lot of

water, and there are a lot of areas in between, and yet, you‟re modeling

68

on assumptions of conductivity in an area that is incredibly difficult to

put your finger on…

P16 …and then the contract…

P17 …So, we‟re looking at, yes, this is probably right, hopefully, but not, this

is right.

P1 Okay, you‟re right, so, in some respects. There are areas of high

conductivity in the area, and the Grass Valley incident here should

confirm that. But, what the Grass Valley mine should confirm to you, is

that, then you can mine and not have an issue, but, if you don‟t watch

what you‟re doing, you can strike [?] into one of these things. Okay, so

the model assumes, not…just hang on, that‟s it‟s mostly homogenous,

so that, it is not totally homogenous as the model has seen that this is

basalt this is this, this is that… The model gives, in the [INAUDIBLE]

layers, better conductivity, because it‟s more sponge like at the top,

and less sponge like at the bottom. So, it‟s not just homogenous, there

are very informed assumptions, and the model, generally, gets water

levels right. So, generally speaking, it‟s fine. So, if there is…We don‟t

exactly know about these features, however, what we want to establish

is, in the worst case scenario, if these features should come into play,

what would the impact be of that? Obviously, there is an operational

issue if you mine into one of these things, you have to pump a lot more

water. If you don‟t grout it successfully. So, apart from the operational

aspect, there‟s also the issue of what does it mean in terms of the

regional groundwater? And that‟s why there‟s these two scenarios, not

either of them is a perfect representation of reality. Again, what I‟m

saying is, reality is going to be in between these two.

P17 How can we say that this is the worst case scenario?

F …hallo, wait Wayne…

P17 How can you say that this is the worst case scenario?

P1 Okay, this…the worst case. Why I think that one can label this as the

worst case scenario is that one, the Zebediela Fault is put in place with

the conductivity, which is conservatively high, so its conductivity here is

much higher than boreholes that were drilled into it. Okay, secondly,

there is a fault line put in place with conductivity that‟s typically much

higher than any of the faults that was drilled into. So, this is a type of

worst case scenario, a bay day, in the mine planning shop. And, not

only that, it links the two pits, so that you first get all the water through

there, and then you get it through there as well. So, in reality, this thing

may do this, and you don‟t on the second pit, you don‟t…that doesn‟t

69

happen, or, in reality, it may be the one pit, but, in this instance, both

pits were connected to a fault that can bring regional water to the pit

and that was modeled. So, this…what we did here is we said, we‟ve

got a sponge, and it‟s full of water, but the sponge has an area of

higher conductivity, now we‟re sucking out of the sponge with a flaw.

How much can we suck out of it. And, that‟s essentially what the model

tries to do, and that‟s the volumes that the model can get out of that

sponge in the worst case scenario. If that makes sense.

F You know what, can we run both models again, so we can see the

worst case with the best case, no?...

P17 …No, we‟re accepting…I‟m not accepting that, that model is correct

because of the fracturing, and because of the absence of good

information, and the knowledge and information that we‟ve been

supplied in the other studies by Doctor Du Toit…

F …But where‟s he…

P17 … but that‟s between the assumptions, but it‟s just seems to me to be

way underestimating what the potential could be…

F …Okay…

P17 …it could be a whole lot worse than this model is showing, and that

has been something that we‟re considerably, concerned about,

because there‟s assumptions like there‟s a clay layer, and the water‟s

going to flow over the top where Hillary‟s old man had a farm right

there, and we know that it‟s not as [BACKGROUND TALKING] lined

as…and therefore water‟s going to go from the Nile flood situation into

the pit, and that‟s going to be pumped, so we have major questions

about the grouting that we haven‟t really had good answers for, we

don‟t think…

F …And that…

P17 …so, how this all impacts the underground water, we don‟t have

confidence in, because it‟s not homogenous and, okay, I don‟t know

the assumptions, and Theo can‟t tell us the assumptions…

F …just about it…

P17 …that he confirms here, because of where the Zebediela water goes

to, where the water further downstream goes to, to supply the people

north of Mokopane…

F …okay…

70

P17 …and what also confirms this, is other studies that would indicate that

the de-watering effect would be much larger on communities, in a

much wider area. So…

F …okay…

P17 …those are things that we are very concerned about, and yes, we

understand the model [COUGHING]…

F Okay, I‟m going to stop you there Wayne…

P17 …fine...

F …So, the detailed report will be made available when it is finished…

P1 …Look, I think there is a preliminary groundwater modeling report

that‟s available, substantial, it states the assumptions and the

limitations, and the applicant, or proponent, has indicated that they will

fund a peer review of the study. So, I understand the issues where,

when you look at the system and the concerns and you think but how

is…you take out all this water, it‟s not dried up all the way downstream.

I understand that it‟s…I can‟t remedy this mis…I don‟t want to label it a

misunderstanding. This is not black witchcraft that is preventing you,

this is the best science that we can produce. If it‟s not adequate, let the

peer reviewer indicate that to us.

F Okay, I‟m going to go to your comments, then yours, and then yours.

P16 Hi, I just want to… [NAME] asked me to just ask a question. The

question is, when the mine eventually closes down and you‟ve got that

[INAUDIBLE]weird question mark. What happens to the contaminated

water in the dams? And the potential for the suitor after closing down.

And there‟s something else that we need to come back to, it‟s with

another comment, that we mustn‟t move out on that whole thing, is the

water catchment forum. The water forum issues.

F …closure.

P1 Okay, post closure, I think there has been geotenical [?] modeling done

as far as the hydro-geological report, and it indicated the material is not

deemed to be acid forming, and the host rock has significant buffering

capacity. So the water in this area as high TDE as [INAUDIBLE]. The

pit, as the plan stands, the pit will be mostly filled up with waste rock,

some of this waste rock will also contain some sulfides, however, it will

not generate acid. The acid that will be generated will be immediately

neutralized by the alkalinity, the natural alkalinity of the rock, but it will

augment, or it will add to the fault load, that is present in the water. The

71

modeling has shown that the fault…the rate that these faults will

develop there will not be at very high rates. It will be measurable. A

plume has been modeled, but, because the water here, the

groundwater does not flow, it‟s, essentially more like a dam, it‟s like a

sponge, it‟s not a river that flows through a sponge, it‟s mostly local,

and, if anything, it will move in the direction of that fractures. Okay, the

levels will be higher than background, but those…the levels of the salts

has been modeled, and it‟s in the report, will still be within drinking

water limits for TDS, for total dissolved solids, however, there is the

nitrate aspect, but that is natural to the area, and anybody in this area

that has boreholes that, to be safe, test their drinking water for nitrate

levels. Especially when you have young kids and when you‟re

pregnant.

F Can we just comment on life of mine, because there is a question mark

after the twelfth.

P1 Okay I c…this is a figure that I don‟t have at the top of my head. I can

look at these models and then deduce it. Anton, do you have it off the

top of your head?

P14 …[INAUDIBLE][OVERTALKING]…

P16 …would have though water would have come after [INAUDIBLE]

[OVERTALKING]…

P1 So it‟s twenty odd years. It‟s twenty odd years, the life of the mine.

F Okay, I‟m jumping to that gentleman at the back there.

P13? Sorry, can I just interrupt this comment [INAUDIBLE]…

F …yes…

P13? …Sorry, but the water was in it…

P1 …okay, go ahead…

P13? …the drinking…

P1 …yes…

P13? …as I understand, Hillary‟s question with the water, when you pressed

specifically on…

P1 …salinity…

P13? …the water that was in [INAUDIBLE] taps, what were you saying was

going to happen to that? I missed that particu…

72

P1 …It remains mostly [INAUDIBLE] [BACKGROUND NOISE]…

P13 …But it remains in the little…in the dam…

P1 …No it…

P13 …in the sponge…

F …no, but it‟s not going to go anywhere unless there‟s abstraction. It‟s

on the record. That okay. Okay. [BACKGROUND TALKING] Your

name, and then your comment…

P8 Ernst Retief from Bird Life South Africa. I‟ve got some sympathy for

you, I think you need to help your client in the time to find a model, you

know, to try and answer the questions, but, my problem is, you know,

we‟ve got a wetland here that is of massive biodiversity, it‟s important.

Not only, but also for the larger country. I‟m talking for the bird

perspective, and it‟s a massively important area, and, you know, I

appreciate the fact that you tried to find a model to answer questions,

that access of knowledge, you can‟t answer all the questions. So, to

me, it seems to me, at the interest and the better part, I just plain can‟t

support this model, and gamble with the flat plain and the future, and

the va…the role that it plays, and that par…you know, I think, that I saw

Sylvia mine, in their reference says, that they look after the

environment, they care for the environment, support it, and then. I

really think we need to convince them, but we need to wait for the flood

event in order to make sure that this flood plain is not affected by this

mine. I just think we can‟t play with models, and I‟ve played with

models in my pa…you know, myself, only now it gets extremely difficult

to model natural environment etcetera. And I just think we can‟t gamble

with the value of the flood plain and, just why not wait two or three

years or whenever the flood [INAUDIBLE] take place and then make a

informed decision about the mine, and not just gamble with the…

F Okay. I‟m jumping to that gentleman and then I‟ll come to you.

P? That‟s fine…

F …ja…

P1 I would like to thank you for your comment. It is a challenge, and, we

wouldn‟t like to gamble. So, however, the realities is that there‟s

minerals legislation and it has very…it has certain consequences. So

there is…things are at a head at some point in time. There are times

that the system will not flood for five years other t…or longer. So, there

73

are those considerations as well, but, in principle, I‟m in full

concurrence with you.

F Okay, your comment, and then to the lady at the back, and then I‟ll

come to you.

P12 Yes, I‟m happy you mention the legislation, Theo, because that‟s what I

want to chat from next. The legislation, the Minerals Act, says that,

within fourteen days, after accepting an [INAUDIBLE] for the mining

right, the regional manager must, in the prescribed manner, call upon

interested and affected parties, to submit their comments regarding the

application, within thirty days from the date of the notice. There was a

rendered meeting in this, you were present, the applicant was present,

we were informed by the Department of Minerals and Energy that they

sent a letter, to the Court, to inform interested and affected parties,

according to this. It‟s Section ten. I visited the Court, and I was

informed, and I have a letter to that effect, that they never received

such notice and that such notice was never given as he said, and as

he‟s alleged. The other aspect, also regarding the Minerals Act is what

I previously asked, the hundred and eighty days. We want to know

when was the application lodged, and how is the hundred and eighty

days calculated. Because you haven‟t given us an indication of how

that hundred and eighty days was calculated, and from when it was

calculated. Because, if it was lodged on the twentieth of May, they had

fourteen days to notify the applicant, and then from that notice, the

hundred and eighty days runs.

P1 Okay, I don‟t know whether I can actually answer any of these

questions, or statements, but, I‟ll tell you the following. The application

wasn‟t submitted by myself, I wasn‟t party to that…

P12 …he can‟t say that…

P1 …So I can‟t tell you exactly on which date…

P14 …Maybe I can help there Theo. The application was lodged end of

June, it‟s either the twenty sixth, or the twenty eighth of June it was

lodged. It was accepted somewhere in the middle of July, and I think

the hundred and eighty days go from there on.

P12 But then we needed in that formation, up to twen…why are we not

given that information?

P14 What information?

P12 From when the hundred and eighty days runs.

74

P14 From the date…there‟s the date, there‟s the…the DMR gives you the

date. They say you must submit your tip…within a hundred and eighty

days from whatever. And that is…

P12 But why may we not be…why‟s that information not disclosed to us.

We‟ve asked it continuously. Why is it such a big secret that, that

application was lodged on the twenty sixth of June, and the Minister

gave not…

P14 …the acceptance…

P12 …the [INAUDIBLE] manager gave notice to us on the first of July and

the hundred and eighty days runs from the first of July, the everybody

knows…

P14 …Okay, you‟ve got it now…

P12 …No, we don‟t have it. You‟re not sure on what that date is.

F …I‟m coming…

P14 …with [?]…

F Is that communication part of the reporting?

P12 Is it?

F From the authorities?

P12 We‟ve asked this several times and it‟s not…

F …Can, can…

P12 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]

F …can we make that available?

P14 The dates?

F The acknowledgement letter from the department that we‟ve received

your application, within a hundred and eighty days submit x, y and z.

P14 I can give them the date I…maybe I can phone the office and get the

exact date if you want it…

P12 …Why…

F …okay…

P12 …Why has that got you straight to it…

75

F …okay…

P12 …why may we not [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING], what‟s the big

secret to have it?

F Okay, so there‟s a concern around why the dates of submission of the

application has not been made available. [BACKGROUND TALKING]

P12 And then we want to know how they concern me, they say they can

take me to court…

F …Anton, can you phone now to get those dates? Okay...


P1 …The date is the twenty eight January…

P14 …Okay, [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …You should have taken my advice, because on my birthday is the…

P12 …From when is the twenty [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING], from when

is the twenty [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …Okay. Okay, I‟m going to park it there, Anton‟s got a phone, and

then…

P12 …No, no, no. It‟s not necessary if Theo‟s has got the date…

P1 We‟ll work it backwards, when is a hundred and eighty days back from

twenty eighth of January?

P12 …But why must we work it out?...

F …Can I…

P12 Why is it not disclosed to us?

F …I think the point is, they just want to know what date was it submitted,

what date was it acknowledged, and the date…

P12 …and it‟s impossible, to find out from the Department that it was

submitted [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F Okay, can we put that through some time?...

P12 …because there‟s contradictory information…

F …Okay…

P12 …This thing says it was lodged on the 20th of May…

76

P14 …No. It never…can I keep that? I think, if I remember what the

[INAUDIBLE] announcement in the Internet said. It said the application

was a previous mining right application, was withdrawn, and the new

one will be re-lodged, something like that. Isn‟t it got it there? Does it

say it has been lodged?

P12 …Can we agree…can‟t we agree that look at copy of that letter?...

P14 …The acceptancy letter?...

P12 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] that says the hundred and eighty

days runs from now.

P14 …I don‟t think that should be a problem…

P12 …because that‟s all we want and we‟ve been asking this continually.

And that, the second question…

F …And…

P12 …is the aspect of notice that was not given by the department of

minerals and energy…

F …There‟s a handout for that. Section ten.

P1 I can‟t…can…

P14 …I don‟t think…

P1 …If we can…

P14 …[INAUDIBLE] going to reply to that, I think that is a major…

P12 …The thing…there is certain rights, the interested and affected parties

have, and we‟ve exercised our rights, and we weren‟t afforded the

opportunity to exercise our rights, based on that…

P1 …but…

P12 …and, if it affects the process…

P1 …but I [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P12 …hang on, give me a chance, and you, as the consultant are running

the process. You must see to it that it‟s done in accordance with

the…you‟re quick to tell us about the legislation. In this case, we‟re

informing you and telling you, the legislation was not complied with.

Notice was not given, and you‟re quick…you and the applicant are

quick to tell us we must comply with the legislation, and the legislation

is thrown before our heads, every time. And here we‟re telling you, we

77

established that information, we established that it wasn‟t given to the

Court, and you‟re welcome. You can approach them. It wasn‟t given to

them, we‟ve got a letter to that effect...

F Okay, it‟s been limited…it will be limited, and it needs to have a

response...

P1 …but, what…the only response that I can suggest is that we all write

them a letter saying we‟re dissatisfied with our Government service.

P12 But how do you influence the validity of your process?...

P1 …I can‟t say Emile, I‟m…

P12 …I‟m telling you that‟s nothing…

P1 …but, I hear you, but this is an issue of the DMR, and…

P12 …you didn‟t lodge the application because there‟s…because you

couldn‟t [INAUDIBLE]…

F Okay, I think we agree, that there‟s an issue with time frames, and

there‟s the DMR‟s communications. We‟re not going to solve it today,

but we do want the response in terms of, why was…what are the

implications the…specifically [INAUDIBLE] implications, and also why

did the DMR say they submitted it, but the Court never received it…

P12 …just [INAUDIBLE] affected parties could not exercise their rights in

terms of the App. Within the prescribed time period…

P1 …Okay, so w…

P12 …and it‟s not as a result of an omission by interested and affected

parties.

F …Okay…

P14 …May the Avis lady reply to that, and also, to say that, I think this

question should be addressed to the DMR. If that is the fact that they

did not notify, or did not send out the invitations. As the applicant, we

can‟t answer on behalf of the DMR, as the environmental practitioner

can also not answer on behalf of the DMR. That is a DMR related

question.

P12 Maybe I can just elaborate on that. We have brought this under

the…their attention…

F …This is the last point so I can get to other people with…

78

P12 …Yes. We have brought it under the attention of the DMR, but now we

bring it under your attention, you‟re in control of the process, and we

want to know what you‟re going to do about it. „Cause the legislation

was not complied with...

F …Okay, and I think there you will investigate, and provide a

response…

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] legal people…

F Okay, I‟m going to…down to the…Do you still have your question?

P12 I don‟t have [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P5 …[INAUDIBLE] and it elaborates on what Ernst Retief said. This is

Ros, Ros Lindsay. We‟ve all acknowledged that we are compromising

the nativity of a very sensitive area, number one, a Randpark Dyke has

[INAUDIBLE] importance, number two, a very water strict area. So one

asks the question, why are you mining it. Where has [INAUDIBLE] go,

more smelt and go, more this and that. Not a big deal, you‟re obviously,

going to make some money out of it, maybe the people will be

[INAUDIBLE] on the ground economically, for a short while. However, if

you guys pull out, obviously it becomes down to mining-government

thing, they‟ve been allowed mining rights, so the devil, the devil we‟re

trying to get to know, has stayed with us, then the next one, we don‟t

know, who‟s also going to be told by the government that they can

carry on with trying to mine the area, and it‟s sad, there‟s the farmers,

people, the environment. My observation to you. Thank you…

F I‟m going to come for the latecomers…

P7 Okay. Thank you. Marion Mengell again. One comment and one

question for Anton. If you‟re so convinced that the modeling we have

just seen, you should be able to tell us when we can expect the next

flood. And then Anton, please tell me, where there is a mine without

additional infrastructure for housing and roads and things.

P1 Okay, I‟ll try and explain, I…

P7 …you don‟t have to explain the modeling…

P1 …Okay, no that‟s, we… I don‟t think it‟s in our abilities yet, to, with a

high accuracy, predict, over a long horizon, time horizon, but I think this

model would actually be able to predict the arrival of the floods before it

actually arrives. That it may be able to do, and I would like to take on,

as an act of…

79

P7 …You man up, and tell us that, how to [INAUDIBLE]

[OVERTALKING]…

P1 I would like to take on a wager with you, but I need to get the buy in

from my team, but I would honesty like to tell you that, if we measure

the precipitation, and feed it into the model real time, I think we should

just be able to do that. [BACKGROUND TALKING] But, fair enough,

so…

F …second point about infrastructure [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …but I would like to make it interesting. I I would like to put a no loss

wager to you, but if that if you win then I will pay a certain fee to both,

the upkeep of Nylsvley, and the Smith‟s House, if you lose, nothing

[LAUGHTER] I admit…let‟s discuss it over tea, I‟m willing to do that. I

don‟t want to gamble with the Nylsvley, I‟ll gamble with my own money,

and I will put it, hopefully to good cause. Sorry, what was the…

F …The additional infrastructure re its housing…

P1 …Okay, roa…

P7 …how they [INAUDIBLE] without putting in infrastructure…

P? How‟s that [INAUDIBLE] do it?

P1 I don‟t know, I think there‟s no planning for housing and, it‟s a

fundamental statement, but it was made, all housing will take place

inf…with informal structures. No whatever you, hostels, no, none of

that, it is bust [?] things. Nobody‟s living on the area.

P14 …[INAUDIBLE] Look, I think there‟s not much more I can add, the

notes he said before that, it‟s definitely not part of the plan to house the

on the mine.

P7 …That then marks my question, would you be able to mine…

F …okay…

P7 …without additional infrastructure?...

P14 …Well, that I can‟t answer you. Of course, additional infrastructure…

there will be infrastructure. But relating to housing, there does no…

P? …how do you mine? Well, the mine, all the mines that I know of, have

got a hous…a squatter council, other facilities for living over.

P14 That‟s not the plan. That‟s all I can tell you. There is…we definitely,

that‟s not on the cards, to create a squatter camp on [INAUDIBLE]…

80

P? …but these things happen…

P12 What are they going to do if it happens?

F Okay, so the comment was, what are you going to do if informal

settlement rises up around the mine? I think it‟s, if they got the

suggestion, the [INAUDIBLE] money for a plan?…

P1 Well I think the rule of law says…

P12 …it will be a given…

P1 …it is not in the MP, as far as I know, but Fiona, can you please make

a note, it needs to be, if there‟s illegal settlement, it has to be

addressed within legal channels forthwith…

P14 …I lose [?]…

P1 If, I think …

P? …to late for the [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …and, as the tall tree that go to take all the wind, I think it should be

you prerogative, Anton, but as representative of Sylvania, and not in

your personal capacity…

P17 …did they get gap? Are they taking that? Are they taking that

responsibility?...

P14 ...Like I told you, it hasn‟t been discussed. It doesn‟t need…that‟s a

new question. Obviously, if it‟s on our land, we‟re not going to allow

illegal people on our land, and we‟re going to address it.

P12 …That‟s not a new question, Nellie [INAUDIBLE] asked that in the

[INAUDIBLE]…

F Okay, I want to come back to the Water Forum excerpt so we don‟t

overlook it, but we‟ve got fifteen minutes left before tea. So, the

original question was, before the mind gets established, there needs to

be some forum, or some committee, something established where,

whoever, all interested and affected parties, can take their concerns to,

and there need to be some kind of mechanism, or process. Let‟s call it

a forum for a lack of a better word, or a more appropriate word, for

now. How that forum will address comments and issues, and how they

will be dealt with, so that everybody knows before the mine arrives, this

is the process going forward if you need to lodge complaints, this is

how they will be dealt with, and that needs to be a collaborate with

81

input. So, let me ask either Theo or Anton, to comment on that first,

and then I‟ll come through to us to comment on that. Is that alright?

P12 So, I think if I can just add to what…

F …Okay, well the ILOP‟s [?] first…

P1 …I just want to add to what you‟ve said, the purpose that we‟ve

agreed, to be part of the establishment of a water forum, is to assist in

gathering information, or facilitating the gathering of information, for

purposes of furnishing that to the specialists, to base their studies on.

So, in the one instance, it is also a for complaints, but it also for

daytime information, and for monitoring after the establishment of the

mine.

F Okay, do you want to add something?

P16 no, I just wanted to say, let‟s get up to the history of why we were

looking at this water forum, it wasn‟t for the purposes of an EIA, it‟s for

the purposes of starting with enough information, so that if there is a

problem later, that there‟s recourse. There was one of the interested

and affected parties, stance on it. And, yes, I understand that there is

a much broader scope that it can hold, but certainly, it‟s not a tick box

facility, the process has a water forum, and this and that. We will not

be a part of that, if that is the purpose of this. It is completely

unacceptable to request that of us, we want it for baseline information,

for recourse purposes, and for all the right reasons that we, as affected

parties, who will be affected by this mine, not for the purposes that I

seem to read between the lines, in the correspondence that‟s come our

way.

P1 I think it‟s easy, and that is, I confirm. I would have liked to give you

the position of the environmental assessment practitioner, is that a

water forum will be at a key requirement to effective and functional

water management, in this instance. The gathering of information is

something that may still be, for the EIA purposes, is debatable, firstly,

for the establishment of a baseline, and for the effective and amicable

management of water in this area, I think a water forum cannot be

done without. It is a fundamental requirement in my view. I concur

with you.

P12 Wait, just a moment on that, I just want to see, it seems as if you

distinguish the gathering of information, and the baseline information.

The indi…information that you‟re gathering is supposed to be gathered

to form part, or to establish baseline information.

82

P1 I would go as far as differentiating information gathering into three,

perhaps more phases. The first phase is gathering information and

adequate for a decision to be made, that is one phase, where a water

forum may contribute, but may not be essential. Then there‟s a second

phase, the second phase is baseline monitoring and that, I think, the

water forum is essential in assisting with prescribing the standards to

which a baseline needs to be performed. And, in fact, the water forum

should be the keeper, and director of baseline information assimilation.

And then a third phase will be where water monitoring is undertaken to

manage water as opposed to, and there is where state of water then

diverges from the equilibrium that existed before the mine. So, a water

forum is essential to describe, at first the equilibrium and the baseline,

and essential, even more so, to measure divergence from that baseline

and equilibrium. Does that make sense?

P12 Yes, the [INAUDIBLE].

F Are there any other questions from others, who perhaps haven‟t had

the opportunity yet, or would like to ask a question?

P17 Okay, ja. Related to the water forum?

F Or something else?

P17 Ja, I want to ask Theo about the [INAUDIBLE] text book, possibly after

the water forum if we‟ve meant…

F Okay, I think the water forum we‟re fine with.

P1 Ja, I‟ve still got something on the Water Forum.

F On the water forum.

P12 I think, the most important issue on the water forum, and we want and

answer, and we‟ve been asking for an answer for this for long, and we

know we‟re not going to get an answer today again. People from the

community have to form part of the water forum and have to take time,

and go to meetings and assist and assist the applicant, who ultimately

is a polluter, and ultimately who should pay for everything, and we

haven‟t got the commitment, or an answers from them, are they going

to pay the people that form part, the members of the water forum?

Because it‟s going to be an ongoing thing, which is going to go on for

who knows whenever, and they‟re going to coin it with all the minerals

that they‟re going to mine and we‟re going to have to sit and have to do

their job for them.

F Okay. Just taking a comment [INAUDIBLE], and then [INAUDIBLE].

83

P16 Yes, this is a question that‟s come a long way. We‟re all taking our time

to do something that we are really not interested in being here in the

first place. Further to that, we have submitted a list, an extensive list,

of notable people who understand the local water panolas, who have

more information than the interested and affected parties, that you are,

potentially, inviting for a meeting next week. You are omitting that

broader knowledge base, and yet you say you would like people to

participate, and the email that I read at twelve o‟clock last night, says

that we first want to create a committee, and then go broader. Well

now, the people that you want to draw the committee from, are lay

people, yes. We have submitted names of people, who really

understand the water issue in this area, who have ombuds knowledge

of many years, and yet, at the outset, you are [INAUDIBLE] a fateful, or

not [INAUDIBLE], that‟s the wrong word, you‟re not including those

people, at the outset, we‟ve believed deliberately and purposefully. We

have deliberately and purposefully, not only included the interested and

affected parties, then the environmental people, because those people

don‟t know about enough about the water issues. So, I want to

understand, why you do not want to include those people in this water

forum, firstly, and secondly, the applicant has only made two meetings

available on their budget, because it‟s a costly affair, again, I come

back to well, [BACKGROUND TALKING] pollutant pays. We don‟t get

paid to be at the water forum. We don‟t want to be there. It‟s our time,

we have core businesses that we are neglecting to be here. Look, and

the second point is then there are only prepared to budget for two

meetings, one now, before, and one later. Well, the [INAUDIBLE], yes,

it‟s still there. Okay, so I want to understand, why did they delay on

creating the water forum, because they knew, on the fourth of October,

and even prior to that, that it was discussed in depth on the fourth of

October. Why are they delaying it until fourth of December, to have

this meeting, and then, only allocate two meetings, and I‟m not asking

you Theo, I know you‟ve been [INAUDIBLE] to forum, and this is not a

question to you, this is a question to Sylvania, they need to…I want to

see this matter with…you know, last time the matter was a critical

matter, the water in this whole issue here, as we all understand, is the

problem.

F So there are a number of things there that are…

P12 Vick, sorry, I just want to ask, while you‟re busy with it, there‟s a water

forum that‟s a…what status does it have with legislation? And shouldn‟t

we really be establishing a water catchment agency? I‟m just asking

that.

84

P1 Okay, with respect to water forum remuneration, I think it‟s a

fundamental, economic and reality of any system is that it has to be

tied, so I can only say that, in the longer run, the water forum will have

to be funded. I don‟t know where or how, and that‟s one of the things

will have to be deliberated. Then…

P12 …Then you‟ll get Sylvania towed down [?]…

P1 …I will go through this list and then I‟ll pass to them for their comment.

Then the list of the proposed people. Hilary, I thank you for all of that,

before I just go out and invite a whole lot of people, and create…I don‟t

want to create a situation where I‟m getting ahead of myself, or you

getting ahead, or we getting ahead of ourselves…

P16 …They‟re always [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 Okay, just hang on, I don‟t want to create disappointment, I, what I first

would like to do is get agreement, that yes, there will be a water forum,

yes, it will be…have a constitution, with representations from the

agricultural community, local landowners, the local authority,

conservation groups, etcetera. Once we have that, then we can say

alright, what is the next step, and then we can go to inviting people. I

don‟t see the it‟s conducive to good relations, just to invite people,

without a plan or structure. So, ideally, in my understating. All of

those…

P16 …I know about water forums…

P1 …I understand that, but the thing…

P16 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] they‟ve done it before, why not

woo…stick a boot in us try and figure out what to do with our water

forum...

P1 …But, can we at least get agreement, here as a group, that the way

forward is going to be step x, y and z. I don‟t want to, just unilaterally,

go off on to a tangent. I‟m already perhaps one step ahead of myself…

P16 …Ja, well we‟re trying to [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …So, I understand your reservations…

P16 …No, you want to push the bulk onus [INAUDIBLE]

[OVERTALKING]…

P1 No, not at all, no, I can‟t go beyond my mandate. And I may,

occasionally, have done so already. So, that the issue with rea…that‟s

the real issue. Then the papers in terms of legislation, I think the water

85

forum has to be constitutors in terms of some legislation, I can imagine

that, at first it must be something like a Section twenty one company,

whatever, and that it must, probably then, convert into the equivalent of

a catchment, or a water management agency, and, I think, there‟s been

a good example in what was the Katbos Water Forum that converted

into the Tseping [?] Water Management agency and they dealt mostly

with groundwater as well and mining. And there is an existing model

that you can follow, I‟ve…I think…

P12 …We‟ve got that [INAUDIBLE], we‟ve got it already here. It‟s already

here…

P1 …So, would you like to give us comment and advice? And then I‟ll

hand it over to Sylvania on remuneration and the plates and there‟s

where…

P11 Stiewel Vermaak, ek gaan Afrikaans praat. Op hierdie stadium het ons

die watergebruikersvorum is in ons gebied…

F …Wat is sy naam?...

P11 …Ons het, daar‟s vyf verskillendes in die gebied…

F …okay…

P11 …wat onder die CMA val, op die CMA val, in die Groter CMA Limpopo,

maar, op hierdie stadium is daar „n problem. Die wetgewing het…die

Mininster het so Julie maand het sy die dinge weer verander, dat met

die vergoting van die Seder opvangsgebiede in die land, waar die sewe

opvangs [INAUDIBLE] opvangsgebiede in die land gesit is, is Limpopo

en Olifants geskyf. Ons opvangsgebied trek nou van [NAME] tot bo in

Lebuwu [?]. Dit meen dis die hele oorloe Limpopo opvangsgebied, is

net een opvangsgebied, net twee streekantore wat daar was, en op

hierdie stadium gaan daar twee CMA‟s wees in hierdie gebied,

waarvan Limpopo gaan onder Pietersburg kantoor val, en die ander

een gaan onder Magaliesberg val, Brits en Matlabas CMA. Dan

gaan…dan is in ons gebied Polokwane-[NAME]-Pietersburg gebied is.

Die Sterkrivier gebied, die kant van die berg. Daar‟s die Magalakwena

gebied hierdie kant van die berg. Dis „n [INAUDIBLE] verbruikers

voorop. Die hele Magalakwena, dit sluit van daar onderkant die Swart

[?] gebied in daar van waar die Magalakwena en Sterkrivier bymekaar

inkom. Hierdie gebied is „n opvangsgebied op sy eie. En dan het jy,

laer af die laer gebiede wat uitloop to op, as jy Blouberg ingaan daarso.

Dit is die vorums wat op hierdie stadium klaar daar is.Die vorums is ok

so, by ons, byvoorbeeld op Sterkrivier is daar ook „n vorum wat gestig

al in twee duisend is hy al gestig. Die Waterverbruikersvereeniging

86

gaan hulle nie meer, letterlik, aanvaar nie. Die Minister…daar gaan

nege en sewentig wees onder nuwe behandeling van die land, nege en

sewentig wees. En…waarvan ons verskillende gebiede gaan wees.

Maar daar‟s „n effens…daar‟s nog nie „n besluit…die besluit is nog nie

finaal geneem nie, oor die Waterverbruikersvorum [INAUDIBLE]. En dit

plaas mens nog in „n posisieof ons nie teen nou, volgen…vroeg in

volgende jaar of ons oor die goed finaliteit kry. Omrede daar‟s so veel

onstuimighede in die water storie is, in die hele land, wat problem skep

vir almal. En daar moet sekere goed moet nou vasgevat word van „n

kant af, en ons sal vroeg in Februarie, het ons weer „n vergadering met

die Minister, oor hierdie goed, en daar gaan ons finaliteit kry vorentoe.

Dit sal seker verwerking kry in Julie maand volgende jaar. Wat hierdie

watervorum in daai gebied van grond af gaan kom. Maar op hierdie

stadium is my voorste [INAUDIBLE] hier. Die gebied wat ons hier het,

daar is mense [INAUDIBLE] opwerk, vorums, moet ons daai mense

kry. Die myn kry sy een sitgroep, sy person way daar bykom.

Daar‟s…Daar‟s…hy word..die waterverbruikersvereniging word in

sitgroepe ingedeel. Jou landbour, fisies jou...as jy ra…waterraade het

wat in jou gebied is, dan‟s jou myn by. Jou domestic workers, baie

belangrik, is daar, dan die mense wat nog gaan water…al jou

water…jou Paarkaraat en daai, ja, hulle‟s al deel van dit. Daar‟s sewe

groepe wat deelmaak van hierdie watervorum. En dit is hoe die ding

werk. Maar…

P16 …Dalk hoort daar iemand vir hierdie group, of vir die Nylsvley…

P11 Okay, ek is voorsitter van die Limpopo gebied, jy weet, op hierdie

stadium is waterraad, ek sit, sit ek daar bo. Maar ek sal die dinge

hanteer hier so dis nie „n probleem nie. Ons sal dit so hanteer…Maar

dit is…dis hoe die ding gehanteer word en daar sake, jy weet by die

menteering van water, die boorgate is mos nou met die Minister „n

groot storie ook, want daar gaan, die wetgewing gaan…is klaar in plek

dat elke boorgat moet motors opkry, jy weet, dis als goed wat in plek

gaan val, as hoeveel onwettige gebruik wat ok hier te sprake is, in

hierdie selfde gebied van ons is, sukkel ons met mense wat nie

geregistreer is nie. En dit is ons problem wat ons mee sit op die

stadium…Ons sit met kwaliteite wat nooit geregistreer is nie.

F So die voorstel dan, is ons gebruik…ons moet „n rusting water

[INAUDIBLE] per aand…

P11 …ja…

87

F We could establish a new one and it‟s problematic, because the

legislation might come in, and that does not resort anymore. So that‟s

the stability [INAUDIBLE]…

P11 …Ja. Dankie…

P1 I would, Virit…

P? …No, [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P1 …No Vogue. Okay, I would just like to thank you for your input, and I

would just like to say I think it makes a lot of sense and it‟s logical. It

may, however, be that it makes sense to form a sub-study group, or an

affiliated body to this, because I think this instance, this situation is…I

don‟t want to say the rest of water management is not complicated, but

I think this is a, particularly, complicated…Then, Anton, do you have

anything to add…

P14 …Not that much, just add. All I like to, as trees say, I appreciate what

the previous teacher has said, and I think it makes sense to work with

the existing water forum, don‟t re-invent the wheel, and learn from them

and work together on that.

F Alright, well we‟ve run out of time now, now it‟s tea and lunch…

P12 …Sorry, [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] they have still not answered

us about the who‟s going to fund us and what does it pay…

F …Well I think that‟s a case of, we need to look at the existing subject,

look at it, and investigate it, and then they need to come back with the

statement by…

P12 …[BACKGROUND TALKING] How does the funding of your existing

water forum work?...

P11 There‟s no funding…We do it voluntary through our own pocket

though. That is the system…

P1 …Hold on please [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P11 …You volunteer at this tire…at this stage, for that, and there must be a

[INAUDIBLE] to go and look what we can do, because we cannot stay,

at the whole time, from Farmers‟ side on that committee. I‟m very

d…because there‟s a lot of work I‟m supposed to do on that.

P7 Can I just have [INAUDIBLE]…

F …Okay…

88

P7 There is just the possibility of applying to Sandy, they‟re very

concerned about what‟s going on, on the Nile Flood Plain.

F Okay, you say today, just finding ops that need to be investigated.

P12 Ja.

P16 We‟re back to the pollutant payer‟s principle. We expect that. In fact, if

we‟re ready to be a part of this, we‟d be very, very hurt to find, when we

return to be a part of it if there wasn‟t any compensation from their side,

because we have no other fault.

P12 Well, then I want to report, I don‟t like agreeing with Theo, but,

[LAUGHTER] on this one I‟ll agree with him, I think it‟s important that is

to sub…is that we look at the sub-committee, and that‟s the polluter

funds it.

F …Okay…

P1 …I can just add that, if we were to task the water forum, with certain

tasks, if you‟d like to, or, jobs that is required for the functioning of this

mine, specifically the divesting of baseline information, then the water

forum will, if not have to be funded by Sylvania and the project, it will,

at least have to be a type of independent director of work, and,

indirectly, that will then be funded. Because Sylvania will, essentially,

have to undertake the baseline. The baseline will have to be

undertaken to the specifications that the water forum decides.

However, in sharing that, that water forum will then have to make

stipulations fairly and reasonably.

F Okay, I think we can just about, informally, evict me. Otherwise we‟ll be

here until five, or later, so I‟d like to thank everyone for their comments.

I think we had a fruitful discussion, and that a lot of comments were,

hopefully, addressed. They‟ve all been recorded, hopeful more

efficiently than the last meeting with the way we used this microphone,

so those transcripts will, hopefully be made available, hopefully sooner

than last time. And the minutes will be the distributed.

P12 Had the cars parked fast forward now, where are the exits

[INAUDIBLE]…

F Okay, Theo‟s son was gone today…

P1 Okay, the process going forward it that the festive studies will continue,

hopefully we will witness a flood, and that‟s my personal wish.

Christmas, if I can have them direct the request to Father Christmas for

a flood, but, if it‟s the festive studies and then that will be followed by a

89

draft EIA. A decision will be taken by the group of specialists whether

there‟s adequate information to make an informed decision. A draft EIA

will be issued and comprehensive public participation, including

additional focus group meeting, as well as public meetings in both

Mokopane and Mokgopong will be undertaken.

F Okay, alright. Is it a question on the way forward?

P12 Yes, how do we resolve questions that we didn‟t have the opportunity

to ask today, and the comments.

F …Okay…

P1 …Can we note them, park them, and revert to them like we‟ve done in

the [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …Ja, so the next meeting, or at least, in the minutes, there will be,

those that are not answered immediately will be highlighted, they have

to be answered in the draft EI when that goes out for public…

P1 …We want to…we don‟t want to, it‟s not the intent to stockpile…

F …At the minimum, before that…

P1 …is to, we would like to address them, but we‟d like to address them

effectively and efficiently, so If we could not resolve issues now, we

hope that we have captured these. We will send out the minutes. The

minutes will highlight these issues, as previously, questions for the

EAP, questions for the applicant. You will firstly [INAUDIBLE] is you

can have a look at them and see that you agree with those questions.

Indicate that and we will come back to you like we have done.

P12 The comment period as previously said will be extended to…

P1 …Okay…

P12 Seven days after this [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P1 Okay, or a focus group meeting. In this instance, I would like to close,

in seven days, the sco…the comment period on the scoping report. If

you can please give your comments on the scoping report, I think,

please, from Birdlife Africa, can you formalize your comments that you

would like us not to gamble with the vlei, and I think we‟d like to have

the core issues identified, like the certainty that is required and, for now

I can‟t think of anything else...

F …Okay, so the scoping report commenting period closes within seven

days from today, okay, and, ja…

90

P12 …Sorry I‟m [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] I was so told that‟s the way

forward…

F ….okay…

P12 …The comment, you hadn‟t answered that on our correspondence and

our questions previously, the previous comments of the previous

process, which was not…

P1 …I know…

P12 …The process was started afresh. Can we start by those previous

comments…

F …So, answers to the previous questions….

P1 …the remain valid. So if you look at the scoping report and also the

letter, the cover letter to the scoping report, the letter explicitly states

there‟s a twin process, and the MPRDA‟s process and then my

process. The MPRDA‟s process was withdrawn and it re-submitted. In

essence, nothing has been changed in terms of the previous scoping

report, except, you will see, it‟s highlighted that the addition work

required in order to make…to allow informed decisions has been

added in this current scoping report. So we, essentially, have the same

old, we have the same old scoping report, with additional terms of

reference and specialist studies added to that, but previous comments

remain valid, it‟s being tracked, and appended, both scop…both

comments made in terms of the draft EI forms part of it. So if you‟d like

to, you can say, I confirm all my previous comments, and have in

addition to that, x, y and z. You don‟t have to repeat all of those.

F Alright. Lunch. Has everyone signed the attendance register? We

better go. Okay, so make sure that‟s signed before you leave, and

there is…I think the sandwiches area at the back, at the tables over

there, and tea and coffee on the counter over there. So thanks very

much everyone.


Project code: SRVM

Project Name: Sylvania Resources Volspruit Mine EIA

Meeting minuets

Date of meeting: 4th October 2013

Attendees of meeting:

Modipadi Moboko (DAFF observer)

Rowan Albertyn

Hilary Knight

C. Steenkamp

Wikus (environmental science student)

Gerrit van der Veen

Giep du Toit (ground water specialist)

Jasper Raats (editor of newspaper)

Emile Honiball (lawyer)

Yanna (with Lawyer)

Wayne Knight

Theo Fischer

Sean O’Beirne (Facilitator)

Michael Benjamin

Fiona Preston-Whyte

Aim of meeting: Community participation and update

Meeting minuets

Please note that there is an audio recording of the meeting as well.

Key:

blank – Escience Assciates

Italics-Public

Bold-facilitator

Bold italics – DAFF observer

Yellow highlight – very important points

Presentation by Mr. Fischer:

Summary of location

There are two processes that need to be followed:

1) Environmental legislation

1.2) No time constraints on this application

1.3) Mining is a listed activity and therefore requires an Environmental Impact Assessment

(EIA) Authorisation

2) Minerals and petrol development act.

2.1) This application is the problem: it allows a 30 day scoping and comment period, and 180

days for the full EIA. This is what is limiting the information gathering process.

2.2) DMR is the Authority regarding the actual mining licence

The above processes need not be concurrent.

Q) Why are we making the same mistakes the 2nde time round?

Last year the Application was lodged with the DMR in June.

This year the application was lodged in May, and the public was only informed in September.

Why was the public not informed earlier? This complaint was also expressed last year.

Additionally, why the same mistaken timeframes been struck up for the second year running?

The mine and environmental practitioner have prematurely lodged the mining application.

Which full knowledge (from the past) that the time frame is not sufficient? Why has this been

done for the second year running?

A) In March/April-letters were written to the Minister asking for an extension of the

application. The department of minerals granted a 30 day extension

In May, Sylvania took the decision to withdraw and resubmit the application rather than

have it rejected on lines of inadequate information.

Q) Why was this not communicated?

A) Sylvania didn’t know if they wanted Escience Associates to continue with the job

Q) The fact remains that the public has been prejudiced (by not being informed of the resubmission

until September). This is unfair and unacceptable.

At this stage it was decided that a meeting needs to be set up with Sylvania, as they need to provide

a proper and formal response to why there was no notification to the public

There is an underlying concern: Why was the mining application submitted? -it wasn’t up to

scratch

Q) Why was the mining application submitted when the EIA wasn’t ready, when it was known that

180 days was insufficient?

It has been recommended in the past (by specialists) that a flood must be observed. It is

known that this won’t happen before December.

Hence, why was the application submitted?

A) Differences of opinion

The application was submitted by Sylvania (They want the rights as soon as possible)

Further complexities – prospecting rights have a limited timeframe

Q) That’s the whole point. The application in May does not allow for the complete time frame for a

proper study. It was known that the time frame was insufficient

We are going to sit here again next year.

The major obstacle is the flood event. The time frame forced by handing in the application in

May ensures that the legal timeframe for the mining application ends exactly before the

flood event times.

This has been engineered is such a way that problems will be created. Engineered by the

independent practitioner. This feels like it has been engineered to prejudice the public.

The same time frames as the year before have been set up, in terms of both meetings and

food flood events. Therefore we know there will be the same problems as last year. This

benefits the client that Escience gets paid by (serious accusation of non-independence)

Facilitator: spoke in defence of the independent practitioners integrity

Q) Ramsa site is 42km upstream. Does one require a food flood of the whole area.

Interrupted, will come back to this question

Summary by facilitator:

The date of submission of the mining application makes the process appear to be engineered. Why

was there no communication regarding the resubmission (at the time of submission). This will

require a response by Sylvania

Regarding this application, DMR say they will not grant application without agreement with the EIA

officials

Q) Ask him if he will put the above in writing

A) Theo will request this

EIA officials recommended that a hydro study and flood event needs to be documented

Key issues:

Will the mine draw water from the Nyl riverRiver. As the mine plans on pumping ground water

out of their pits, what will happen to ground water in the surrounding area, as well as to surface

water.

The presents presence of clay creates an impermeable barrier below the Nyl River.

Giep du Toit speaks here:

One needs to establish the theory that surface water runs over the clay (not through).

One needs to see whether the flood water runsproceeds:

From surface to ground

Or

From ground to surface

The current situation regarding the areas water:

The ground water is substantially below the Nyl River. The ground water is dropping 2-3m

per year

Q) Depth of the ground water?

A) need to check recording

Trying to determine whether there is a layer of clay between the river and the groundwater.

And whether this prevents the water flowing between the ground and surface waters.

Regarding the proposed de watering of the pit by the mine: Don’t want the surface water to

drain into the pit as that would drain dewater the river.

The use of a three bore hole system (moving away fromon both sides of the river), as well as

the hight/floe ect. Level of the water in each will determine whether the surface feeds into

the ground water, or if the ground water feeds into the surface water.

Can prove predict the Zone of impact in the dry season.

BUT, What happens in the wet season? (major concern/issue)

Q) Won’t it depend on the type of flood? And if yes, would one flood event even be enough?

Q) Where would it flow, in or under?

Q) If the ground water is dropping by 3m a year, can one assume that it will rise by 3m a year in rain?

A) True

Interrupted by Facilitator-will come back to these

Q) The Zone of impact, this is related to groundwater? How will other people’s ground water be

affected?

A) A study is needed to determine this. Would like to study boreholes to determine this.

Q) An observed observation: pattern: When the Nyl River dry up so too do the bore holes. This is an

observation from the people in the area. This pattern exists.

Q) Regarding Geological faults. Has anything been done to clarify the uncertainty regarding the

areas faults?

Facilitator: Will come back to this

Q) How close are the above mentioned boreholes to the river?(the ones been used to determine flow

of water between surface and ground waters)

A) The first one is as close as one can get to the river. Then 15m away, then 30m.

There is currently no answer to the water movement. Will need a flood event to know.

Q)Relating to the documentation sent out (The letter attached in the email). If the above is all

unclear: Why does the letter state that the clay separates the Nyl River and ground water systems?

This is misleading. The letter should state that this separation is still but a theory.

Theo Apologies.

Q) Also: “difficulties in obtaining assess to surrounding areas” (this is in the actual email letter)

This suggests that the landowners obstructed the process, this sets a bad tone: What difficulties?

Please explain.

A) Specialist work required the drilling of bore holes – extremely hard to gain access to the

properties. Professor Claassens gained access to a property via a neighbour, and is now

bared from that properties

Legal response by Emile Honiball:

1) This visit was before there was legal permission gained.

2) Additionally, obtaining assess via a neighbour was never the legal agreement.

3) Theo’s explanation is incorrect-there were two visits

4) Theo does not follow the canals laid out in the beginning, and agreed to by all parties. This

is the reason that permission is now denied to certain properties.

5) Want to know:

What tests?

Why those tests?

Impact on farmers/land

Security

Summary by Facilitator:

Statement in document is unfair to have a misleading statement about deliberate obstruction

Legal comment by Emile Honiball: Only didn’t answer two calls from Mr Fischer (from two weeks

before the meeting). Accusation that Mr Fischer doesn’t answer emails

Mr Fischer or anyone connected to the studies cannot just phone when they are in town, with

no prior warning, and expect permission to be gained.

Mr Fischer or anyone connected to the studies cannot just dig holes on people’s property

without permission (constitutes vandalism)

A) Mr Fischer stated that he would prefer to deal directly with the owners:

Legal response by Emile Honiball: That is not the established process. So the answer to that is no.

Mr Fischer also expected site assess immediately after one meeting-which didn’t suit the

landowners. This is not an acceptable expectation of Mr. Fischer.

Summary by Facilitator:

Statement in document is unfair to have a misleading statement about deliberate obstruction, as

established channels were not followed.

Therefore protocol needs to be followed

Q) Information expressed at past information sessions has not been expressed well. In fact, it has

been shoddy. Other issues such as socio-economic factors, are these studies going to happen?

Facilitator interrupting: will come back to this

It is noted that there needs to be a presentation on Giep du Toit’s work

Further work regarding Giep du Toit’s work:

A) Pressure sensitive devicessensors (in about 6 boreholes)

B) This would refine the ground water model with new data (improving characterising the

faulting ect.)hydraulic conductivity

C) Look at the rate of recovery of boreholes

D) Giep du Toit presumes that the current boreholes go throughintersects faults as they have

an abundance of water.

E) The above will give a better characterisation of the faults and their impact on the ground

water system

F) Have traced the Greenfields Grass Valley data and will be incorporating that

Q) What is the volume pumped from greenfieldsGrass Valley?

A) About 18 hundred 00cubic meters per day

Q) Is there assess to other mines with the same type of information?

A) There is a massive influence of water on the Greenfields mine

Alluvial fan: may be a store of significant groundwater, therefore the Alluvial fan must be

accurately parametised in the model.

Must gain a monthly estimate of water flow into both the South and North pit.

Q) Statement earlier still stands: It has not yet been discovered whether the extensive clay layer

actually separates the ground and surface waters.

A) True, and therefore want to expand Professor Claassens assessment of the land. Can

Emmanuel please be prepared for this? (to make plans with Landowners for permission)

Back to Mr Fischer’s presentation:

Nyl flood event:

Proposal on approach:

Further investigate ground/surface hydrological model

-use of this developed model to predict and model floods

-this would use the precipitation data

-two existing flood models

1) The Department of Water Affairs has a monthly model

2) There is also a daily model available

Findings of these two developed models:

Hydraulic flow is well documented (within 20cm of the flood)

They estimate losses in the upper catchments. These losses are due to either groundwater or dams.

Q) Why the above approach?

A) best available

Q) In the time available?

Comment [GdT1]: Can’t remember this one. If so, best answer would be “No, not in similar geological conditions. Grass Valley is the only known comparable mine.

A) Yes and no

Q) Why no?

A) perfect world would use both the model and the flood event

Q) Previous studies have only occurred after tremendous pressure from the public to make the

studies significant. Want to know if “we are going to go big” on this one?

A) Will go big as it allows for a scientific answer.

Q) Request that this study be broadened for the complexity of the study site and situation, so that not

just the minimum requirement set out by the legislation is met.

A) More than the minimum legislative requirement will be done.

Q) Is it not the time limit which is forcing this type of study?

A) no

Q) What will you do without a flood event?

A) Without a flood event, an integrated surface and ground water model will be used.

The assumptions of which, are currently unproven.

There is a need to quantify the movement of water

Q) Can one include the Malapela into this model (the Nyl becomes the Malapela after town)

A) Good point

The model may not work. The model will be verified with:

1) Satellite imagery

2) DAFF borehole data

If this does not work:

A fake flood can be created in a fixed area (and observed)

Additional work is proposed for:

1) Air quality

2) Social economics

Q) From facilitator to public: any additional work outstanding?

Q)The public have asked previously for any antidotal information to be included. How will the

antidotal information be included with value in the timeframes available?

Additional, want it to be noted that the landowners have an issue with the process and with

the lies told throughout the process. Not happy.

What is the zone of impact?

How is everything going to be done in the time available? What is the time available?

A) Hopefully ends in January (around the 20th January). The draft is due end of November

Q) So the bottom line is that we are in exactly the same position as last year. It is impossible to meet

that deadline if you don’t have the means to pay people to do the work.

Mr Fischer askes for private borehole information to be made available.

Q) It was agreed that the water forum be formed. It has never materialised

A) Mr Fischer says that as far as he knows, it was formed.

Q) Landowners disagree

A) Mr Fischer says that volumes have been requested before

Q) The public claims that this information was never requested

Facilitator interrupts that he remembered it being formed

Q) How does getting paid work for the water forum? The water forum hasn’t garn further then

certain people being appointed for it. And information has never been requested.

Facilitator: Mr Fischer, in what form has this information been requested, and why not to the

water forum?

Summary of discussion which followed:

It had been agreed that the Zone of Impact must be determined first. The public had rejected the

Zone of Impact as it only covered three farms.

There had been an understanding that after that the Zone of Impact would be expanded.

What is required from now?

1) Define a meaningful Zone of Impact (with agreement between Mr Fischer and the public)

2) Then request from the Water Forum the necessary data. It must be a very specific request

for very specific data

Point according the public: An acceptable zone if impact has not yet been defined

There need to be agreement on the zone of impact, then a formal data request

Q) The community doesn’t appreciate:

1) the wasted time

2) The lack of recorded comments

3) don’t consider the independent practitioner to be independent

4) Nothing is done properly

5) information is not conveyed to the public

Such as: what happened to the process of grouting? When is the specialist on grouting

coming to talk to the public?

6) It is illegal to mine in ANY riverbed/wetland, especially in such a fractured river

7) The Nyl river action group have to ask for talks by groups and specialists

8) The community does not want this mine

9) How much more time and money is going to be wasted?

DAFF representative spoke up here:

The Department does not accept public participation during school/university holidays. Therefore

public participation cannot occur in December, it would be deemed Null ‘n Void

The Department does not accept inadequate reports

- Reports must incorporate all issues

- The department will determine if more work needs to be done regarding the

environmental process.

The zone of influence, best for now, with information available now


Continuation forward: from now:

1) The draft report will be available in the mid November. Available for public comment for

30 days

2) There will be another public meeting

3) Approach the Water Forum; resolve the Zone issue, even if the agreement is to disagree

THEN

Mr Fischer will formally submit written application for the information needed. That

information will need to by obtained quickly

Facilitator Q) What is the most important way of doing the zoning?

Q) Issue: What are the assumptions that are made for these studies? What supports these

assumptions?

Q) Visual impact: What is the mines going to do and where?

DWAFF must get involved

The community want the written guaranty that the water will be prioritised, in the following

order:

1. Water for the people

2. Water for animals

3. Water for aquiculture

4. Water for mining

What has just happened in Rustenburg must not occur here.

The community wants a written guaranty that the mine must switch off for the town when water

becomes critical

A) Ground water model needs to be improved. This requires access to critical boreholes.

Therefore, a water forum meeting with the independent practitioner and groundwater

specialist must be established ASAP.

Q) In this meeting, and the notice for the meeting, communication to why the information should be

needed:

-apply for the information

-Discuss the assumptions

Guaranty that the information is just for this group and project.

1. Need to know:

2. Number of boreholes

3. Rate of which water is pumped from the boreholes

4. The depth of the boreholes

A mechanism needs to be created to pass on this information

The meeting does not have to be the exchange of information.

Q) If the boreholes run dry, the mine is responsible and must provide compensation

A) This is standard practice.

Dr Prinsloo should be approached on behalf of the water forum

The water forum should still be part of the EIA process (not independent)

Outline process for assess to properties:

1. Written requests to the lawyer

2. The lines of formal communications must be followed

In the next few days (following this meeting) Mr Fischer must outline what is needed, and from

whom.

Q) About the artificial flood event:

A) If enough flood events have been documented by satellites, then specialists will decide if the

model adequately represents the ground water/surface water relationship. If it does not, an

artificial flood will be created.

Q) If time is not the issue, why do we resort to the above mentioned methodology? How do we know

that artificial tampering will not affect the future of the river/ground water/flood plain? The

community considers a flood event to be the bare minimum requirement. What exactly are we

modelling?

A) Four weeks are available. The models model three routes of water.

Q) Professor (missed name)McCarthy studied this area and the water for his entire life.

Q) The community cannot accept the model as there is too much as stake

A) The model itself is complicated, and this methodology may not work. But the independent

practitioner is bringing all he can to the table.

Q) The community requires that the minimum consideration is a flood event. It is too bad if Sylvania

risks losing out on prospecting rights. Think that Sylvania is expecting the independent practitioner to

perform miracles.

Q) Is it set up that if there is a flood event, that the monitoring equipment is already in place? What

happens if a flood event occurs in March/April 2014 (just after the report is handed in)?

A) No answer to the above question.

Monitoring Groundwater monitoring equipment is in place – it needs only to be maintained

and data downloaded regularly

At this stage, satellite option is the only option

Q) The implications for this proposed mine are larger than just agriculture, they also include:

Socioeconomic (townships)

Environmental (Ramsar site and water availability)

1. Therefore, if we resort the model, and it is wrong, what will Sylvania’s accountability be?

Want to know this accountability on all levels:

Landowners

Agriculturally

Drinking water wise

Ecologically

Want this accountability in writing.

2. Neighbouring properties are going to be affected anyway (decrease value of land,

decrease land use options

Comment [GdT2]: Cannot remember this one.

How will neighbouring properties be compensated? Want a legal document outlining the

compensation and mitigation of ALL loses

Require this, because a model is being used rather than conclusive evidence. Huge risk. If

Sylvania is convinced the model is sufficient, then they must be prepared to cover ALL

losses experienced by the community.

A) In reality, all EIA’s are predictive. Some are more comprehensive, some are more

controversial. This one is very controversial.

So what is required is a Risk Assessment, conditional to decision making. This is required in

advance.

Sylvania must say that it is so certain of the model, that if this goes wrong, in any way, they

are prepared to pay a set amount of money. Must make it so that the consequences of the

model being wrong, are massive (economically, for Sylvania).

There is very little president regarding translating losses into value.

Q) The community wants the above mentioned compensation investigated/followed up. It creates

goodwill for Sylvania and should, therefore, be considered an investment for the mines. If the mine

cares so much about the community (as they claim) they must put their money where their mouth is.

A) If the borehole data is gained at the beginning (now), there will be a before (possible) mining

database. Using this data, one would be able to prove any damage to the water supply and

the mine would have to compensate.

Legal opinion by Emile Honiball.

Law is not assessable for the lay person, as information has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt

Therefore, the community requires:

1. A formal, written, upfront promise from the mine about who they will pay, for what, and how

much

2. The community will require independent monitoring and validation

3. Water quality should also be measured.

A) By GiepGeip: There is an official monitoring system set up for mines already. But Some of

the boreholesit is are measured by the government run(DWA).

Q) Community not happy with the monitoring being government run. Or sharing water information

with the government

A) We know that the model is not the perfect solution. However, it will look ataims to predict

the worst case scenario.

The mine will have to continue monitoring the area`s groundwater, as the model impacted

zone will evolveis dynamically as data becomes available.

Everyone agrees that monitoring the groundwater levels is key.

Q) But for how long will monitoring occur?

A) As long as necessary (after even before possibly mining commences)

Before, for the models

As well as, two or three times before possibly mining activities begin

Q) Given the complexity of this river system, shouldn’t the monitoring be done over a long time?

Won’t the evidence be inconclusive if the cycles are not taken into account? If the assumption are

wrong, then what? The community is not satisfied that the methods proposed are sufficient.

The proposed site is a wetland. Mines are not allowed in the 50 year flood line. Blows the

communities mined that we are even sitting discussing this.

The community feels that the system is being rushed. It shouldn’t be rushed. There are too

many uncertainties.


1. The communities does not accept the conclusions of the process without a flood event

2. The community feels that a couple of floods should be monitored

3. The above two points need to be highlighted, with the consequences (including economic

for Sylvania if things so wrong)

Q) The documentation that was sent out states that, none of the available information to date

depicts a fatal flaw to advice the mine not to go ahead. Given everything discussed today, this

highlights Mr. Fischers lack of integrity.

This should rather say that “it hasn’t yet been established” whether there is a fatal flaw or

not.

It is a waste of the community’s time and money to have to correct Mr. Fischers reports for

him.

The community does not have this time or money to waste.

Mr. Fischer should pay for the communities’ legal advisor.

Mr. Fischer, do you realise the cost to the community already? We all know that this mine is

wrong.

Sylvania must compensate the community for the cost they have already spent.

DAFF observer spoke here:

For projects of such complexity as this one, the department considers them very carefully, looking

at the following:

If the community feels that the report by the independent practitioner is inadequate, the IAP can

be requested (by the community) to look into this matter

The department can hire their own specialists to look into the matter

Water is key here. And in this regard, the department serves the IAP’s.

Q) The impact on the roads and town should also be considered. We need to participate to gain the

best out of participation

The water form meeting is needed

Would a flood have any influence on the zone of influence?

Would a flood influence the groundwater zone of influence?

A ) by Giep du Toit:

Completed some dynamic modelling.

The cone of depression is not really influenced changed significantly by flood (according to a

model)

Seasonally the ground water moves up and down with rainfall, especially west of the Nyl

River

But, YES, a flood dose does influence the zone of influencecone of depression transiently.

There will be another two, possibly three public participation meetings

Q) Request:

The modelled drawdown is done terminated atfrom 5-10m below rest water levels to predict

the zone of impact. Can we request that it be taken from the surface

A ) 5m will giveis about the seasonal variation in groundwater levels and is thus a good value

to use

Q) Regarding the handheld pumps used for household water in the area. How will they be affected?

A ) by Giep du Toit: The mine will change the seasonal variation below is about 5m. Such

shallow boreholes/pits might also run dry then seasonally under normal non-mining conditions and

is thus unlikely to be viable.

Q) There is another mining company investigating the area: Grassvalley. Is there not a conflict of

interest?

A) Mr Fischer has spoken to them and has information from them.

Q) The communicative impacts need to be considered. Implications if Grassvalley becomes

operational need to be considered

A) Grassvalley is only in the prospecting stage.

Sylvania has the surface rights

Grassvalley has the deeper rights

Q) Grassvalley should be cited as an IAP

They should attend meetings

They should be invited to the next forum meeting

Q) Regarding the Smelter

Why is a smelter going in for such a small mine? Especially as the Rustenburg smelters are

closing

A) Different technology, less SO2, increased value of metals

Q) Does the mine plan on bringing ore from alternative mines? (joint ventures ect.)

Will the smelter and tailings be used for other mines, at this site?

Why would such a small mine have a smelter?

A) Mr Fischer will refer this matter to Sylvania

Sylvania must provide a written statement:

-Is the Smelter just for the two pits at this site?

-Explanation for presence of Smelter

There is a difference between the Conrose and traditional smelters, including capacity

Water forum meeting must be in the next two weeks

End of meeting.

1

Transcribed recordings of the affected farmer/landowner focus group meeting,

in relation to the proposed Volspruit opencast PGM Mine EIA. This meeting

was held on the 4th October 2013.

NAME OF AUDIO : 2013.10.04_13.08_01

DATE OF AUDIO :

LENGTH OF AUDIO : 116.09

TRANSCRIBER NAME : JULIA MARTINELLI

TRANSCRIPTION LEGEND : FACILITATOR F (Sean)

: PARTICIPANT 1 P1 (Hillary)

: PARTICIPANT 2 P2 (Emil)

: PARTICIPANT 3 P3 (Theo)

: PARTICIPANT 4 P4 (Wayne)

: PARTICIPANT 5 P5 (foreigner)

: PARTICIPANT 6 P6 (Sanna)

: PARTICIPANT 7 P7 (afrikaans brays)

: PARTICIPANT 8 P8 (Kip?)

F Okay, ready to go, all right, so what I’m going to say there very quickly

is simply that the groundwork has been done in respect of what was

presented. Okay so that’s what [INAUDIBLE].

P1 [INAUDIBLE]

F Okay in the second thing is around the processes that’s going to

unfold. Okay, and it was sort of, as we were talking it was stacking up

in my mind as to how it’s going to work, and I had a discussion with

Theo, and basically the selected date is the twentieth of January, or

thereabouts, as a function of when the application was submitted and a

hundred and eighty days. From a process point of view what’s going to

be happening is that there is going to be draft documentation put into

the public domain in the middle of November and for a thirty day

comment period. Okay, so I don’t want there to be any ambiguity

around what the expectation is from a process point of view going

forward, but right back into the same set of circumstances that

basically unfolded via Theo. Right, you’re going to be approached and

2

asked to participate in public meetings, of some description, you are

going to have to elaborate on what [INAUDIBLE] and that’s going to be

happening in that period, okay. And I apologise that I’m taking it, kind

of, as brutally as I am, but I just had a sense that, you know, we were

sort of talking past it without making it absolutely clear that, that is, in

fact, what is going to unfold. Alright, so I just wanted to make sure that

was on the table and I must do it. The next issue which I just wanted to

try get a handle on was the issue around the approaching the Water

Forum, okay. And, what I propose is that, what must happen is that

there must be engagement with the Water Forum. I’m assuming the

Water Forum Emil, I’m happy to be advised otherwise, around this

issue of the definition of the sphere of impact, or sphere of influence.

Okay, to resolve that, not necessarily to a point of agreement, but if the

agreement is not met, to at least to ensure that there is a proper

account of the agreement to disagree. Okay, so there’s no ambiguity

around what your view was, and what Theo’s view was. Theo’s

approaching it from a very technical point of view. I’m suggesting that it

has to reflect specific issues as you discussed, and as I remember

from the last engagement that we had. Okay, once that issue has

been taken to some point of conclusion, my preference should be that

there’s agreement reached from it, but if that agreement is not

forthcoming, that there’s got to be some point of conclusion in terms of

that process. Then, what needs to happen is, that Theo will formally

submit a written request for the information that he required in terms of

the information that they’ve enforced then via that Water Forum. Okay,

now that Water Forum stuff has got to happen relatively quickly

otherwise it’s going to become [INAUDIBLE] in the general scheme of

things. Okay, so I guess the question that I would have for you is from

a, just from a logistic point of view, just from an engagement point of

view, from an interaction point of view, what is the path of least pain

and suffering for you guys in terms of your [INAUDIBLE] issues? In

other words, the engagement in terms of defining that impact zone?

How does that happen? What happens to make that a reality? Do we

come up here and meet with a constituted group, present and then

open the… have a discussion? What is the most effective way of

getting that? Because it seems to me that, one way or the other, there

have been a few stumbling blocks that haven’t been resolved, so, as

the facilitator I’m trying to say, okay, what do we do then to get that

issue resolved, and get it resolved definitively, and that’s really what

I’m looking for [INAUDIBLE].

P2 Sorry, Wayne, I think some of the people for today’s meeting couldn’t

come and some of them didn’t receive notice and one of the people I

3

spoke to was Doctor Prinsloo, and he wasn’t aware of the meeting, and

he’s not a person who works with emails and…

F … Okay…

P2 …he wasn’t contacted, and I did contact him this morning, but

unfortunately he couldn’t make it and he asked me to apologise, and I

think it would be very important that, and I know that there was

communication between him and Doctor Du Toit about their issues, but

I know one of the issues, which has to be resolved, is what the

assumptions are upon which the [INAUDIBLE] is based, because that

influences everything…

F …[INAUDIBLE]…

P2 …and I think you were involved with a lot of the other things, but, the

assumptions, you know, for example, if the cone of depression is the

only thing that is agreed upon, cone of depression is the thing that is

now going to determine that, then it’s literally one neighbor…

F … Yes, yes…

P2 … [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] when we looked at the Visual Impact

Assessment, the tailings, one of the proposed sites for the tailings, is a

ridge that runs through close to [NAME] for example, so it’s not going

to have a big influence. That wasn’t considered in the visual impact.

Now how much of an impact is a visual impact? If the tailings, on my

kind of property…it’s massive, it’s a massive influence…

F …sure…

P2 … even if it’s not on my property, now what does that entail? I’m

backing up where you were saying, it’s indecisive as to what an impact

is…

F …yes…

P2 … Socio economic.. socio economically it’s a huge impact ‘cause it’s

going to deter… what, degrade the value of my property. From a

productivity value, maybe not so much, now what does that entail?…

F …yes…

P2 I’m backing up…

F … Yes…

P2 …exactly what Emil’s saying…

4

F …Again, what I’m looking for, is that I’m looking for, what is the

mechanism that we use to basically get the people in the room, to take

that to a point where we can say, okay, even if there’s not absolute

agreement, that we can put that behind us now and have

[INAUDIBLE]…

P2 …the answer there, is also what are your mines going to do, and

where? ‘Cause in the past, they put forward plans and proposals that

claim [?] could be here, here, here or here, the plant could be here,

here, here or here …

F …yes…

P2 … the processing’s going to be…

F …Yes…

P2 … there, there, there, and the .requirement [?] [INAUDIBLE]

[OVERTALKING]…

F … Again there would be the [INAUDIBLE]…

P2 … [INAUDIBLE] can’t answer that…

F … Yes, but there would be discussion, they… in whatever mechanism

was established, there would be such discussions, because that’s

obviously what we need to do. So what I…

P3 …can I…

F … What I’m looking for, is that I’m looking for some kind of forum if you

like, for a want of a better word, or grouping, or engagement, or

whatever it is, where that issue can be resolved to a point where it is

said okay, it’s been done and we move on, okay, because…

P3 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] previously when Doctor Du Toit was

compiling his data and his model, we rarely had discussions with this

Doctor [NAME], we rarely had discussions with Wayne and there were

attempts to do that, so I’m sure we can arrange that.

P4 …We need to [INAUDIBLE] what is it, before we can say what the area

is [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …Yes, yes, but, fundamentally. Wayne, what I’m looking at is, I’m

looking at a situation where, even for my own understanding, I’m still a

little bit confused around exactly what constituted that representation,

so what I’m looking at is I’m looking at a form of engagement where

Theo can come in and he can say this is our defined area of influence

5

or cap [?] of impact, whatever, this is the basis which it is, the floor is

now open for discussion, and then we get into those issues like, okay,

but what if the mines [INAUDIBLE] to move it’s payments for

[INAUDIBLE] in that direction?...

P2 … I think the…

F … What if it happens like, so that what becomes out fault [?], or what

becomes our width, is then to say okay, we’ve dealt with that issue as

well as we can deal with it. As I say, hopefully agreement, if not

agreement, then at least a point where that no longer is the obstacle in

terms of sourcing information from the Water Forum. That’s really

where… what I’m driving towards.

P3 I think, what I would like to propose is, that we break the zone of impact

into the water, the groundwater impact zone and others. Alright look…

F …Ja, look, but…

P3 … the idea is to improve the groundwater study, and for that, we need

to understand the groundwater study is done on impact. I’m not saying

that there are not other impacts, that they’re not related …

F … Okay…

P3 …But I think then to really [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] …

F …Look, okay, your point is well taken but, again, this is the kind of

discussion I want to actually happen in that okay, so...

P3 …sure…

F …So really, I guess, what I presented to Theo is that, what I had in

mind is, basically, to constitute such a discussion, to have a very short

presentation on the, on what that is, how it’s been defined, and then to

have a facilitated discussion around taking that to a point where we can

walk away and say that is the best level agreement that we can come

up with…


F …Okay, and then that must satisfy, and that is the issue, that must

then satisfy the potential unlocking of access to this other information.

P5 I think also incorporated, we need to have [INAUDIBLE] that is a major

impacted block [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …Ja…

6

P5 …and this water can also fill up the border within the northern area,

and…

F … Ja…

P5 …and that’s the [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …Well, look, what sort of interaction do you have with [NAME] currently

because this property is highly difficult to get into?

P5 …Ja, but [NAME] is also involved in other big mines like CPO [?] and

these other mines, and they’ve also got water that’s coming now from

Maravi [?] dam, but it’s been planned, and that will be your five years

of…

F …No, I, look I have no problem with the projection, I have no problem

with the projection, I would love…

P5 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] also a part of it…

F …yes…

P5 …but it can tell us more about what situation is there…

F …up there, but there’s certain, there’s certain…

P2 …We already have regular contact with [INAUDIBLE]

[OVERTALKING]…

F … Okay, alright, let’s run with it like this, that we would then try to get

some black representation at that discussion. The critical thing

[BACKGROUND TALKING] sorry…

P3 How wide do we go with our [INAUDIBLE] is that just for a certain

amount of people or how [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …what do you need to achieve in terms of that, could you tell us what

you need, we, what I’m understanding [BACKGROUND TALKING],

sorry Wayne, if I can just make it, I’m saying the same thing again, but

it’s very important, I’m understanding that, at the moment, the inability

to have defined extensively that zone of impact is what is a stumbling

block to accessing this information via the Water Forum, okay? So if

it’s just the Water Forum then that’s okay, if you want it to be wider

than that, also okay, I mean, you know, my sense of it is, is that we can

come, we can give a presentation, we can have a [INAUDIBLE]

discussion. Whoever choses to participate in that would be welcome. I

don’t think they would be any exclusion necessarily, but, we need to

7

make sure that we do involve critical people such as you suggested

Emil, that was with [INAUDIBLE]…


F …Klipje [?] I want…that can help, okay…

P5 I think what is critical is, and that we need to look to it, we know about

Rustenburg [?], Rustenburg people are higher up, people should let out

water, the mine’s got water, now Rustenburg people got no water, and

that’s unfair. They need first to supply people water, and then we’re

looking to [INAUDIBLE] and then to agriculture, and then mines…

F …Yes…

P5 …my [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F … But won’t, what…

P5 … that must be planned around it, we must have a guarantee our

community, that part of that mine is thinking about water.

F Okay, but does that mean, does that mean…

P5 … That means the mine must switch off, and the water that is critical

for the town.

F Okay, does that mean that you want to draw people in from beyond this

immediate vicinity? And, if so, who because we need to…

P3 We said from the beginning that they, what Andy Duff’s report was

based on, and that’s his view, I’m not going to correct, but who

considers it that this whole neo Garakwena [?] ecosystem functions at

once, and that it…Who’s your family [?] who determined that their

Carpe Diem apes [?] send in crop testing and mining right

applications?...

F …Yes...

P3 …it comes to this communitive effect. Now you said it functions as

one, so then it becomes very wide, and you said from the onset that

the community downstream… Today’s meeting is about a mine, where

I told you, north of Mokopane…

F … Yes…

P3 … Where people also commute, commute [INAUDIBLE]…

F …Ja…

8

P3 …can be…have an impact…

F … Yes…

P3 … and that’s what Andy Duff’s report said, he said if any development,

one development which influences the river, will influence the whole

ecosystem as a whole. That’s what he said, that’s his findings…

F … No, sure, but again, Emil, I say, all I’m looking for is that I want to try

and establish this engagement, as soon as possible, and I want to

make sure that all the right players are there so, how do we…

P2 … I feel reluctant, I, from my [INAUDIBLE], I’d be reluctant to say well

it must be so far, and it can only go so wide, because it is not known…

F …what…

P3 …how wide is going to be.

F So, the issue, as I understand it, is that these guys require information

from boreholes…

P3 …On a very limited [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …Okay, now, I understand that, what is preventing that access is that

this issue was never resolved, the issue of defining that stuff, or that

zone of impact. So, what I am attempting to do…

P2? …Okay, we're looking at two different things…

F …yes…

P2 …‘Cause I'm hearing socio economic impact, and I'm sitting here

discovering, we're looking for influence of socio economic, socio

economic influence, it’s very difficult for me to sit here and say well it’s

going to be so far and so far…

F …No, that’s fine…

P2 …and it’s only going to be from people who are part of this Now Action

Group…

F …Yes, yes…

P2 … and who forgot to clear the information. We can’t go and say well

everyone’s going to give the information [IN AUDIBLE]

[OVERTALKING] …

F … I understand that, I understand that, but there’s a critical, yes, carry

on...

9

P2 … [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] something else?

F Well it’s fundamentally that information, okay.

P2 Is it fundamentally that, or is it the socio economic impact?

F …no,it’s…

P2 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]

F Well, Theo better tell us, cause I’m going to definitely not…

P3 I think, no, I think these are related, but there is a few [INAUDIBLE] on

which they have to be upgraded [INAUDIBLE], so the first thing is, the

groundwater model will need to improve, and in order to improve that,

we need groundwater related information, and the information, the

intensity of information required is proportional to almost the impact

would be today, so at the core that value of the information, or the need

for that is much higher than in the [INAUDIBLE], so, it is in

[INAUDIBLE], it’s the property owners and the Now Action Group

boreholes that are confirmed…

F … That’s the difficult…

P3 … That’s the difficult, that and the trailer [?], these two things will then

actually impact the modelling and, you know, as much as you, if you

shoot with a bow and arrow or a rifle, if you’re out with a few degrees

over here, further away it becomes[INAUDIBLE]…

F … Okay, let’s talk…

P3 But that is, what we need to do is really that…

P2 …Can I make a suggestion?...

F …please do, let’s hear that suggestion…

P2 Look, not everybody, I hear what Theo is saying in notes too [?], but

not everybody that even adjoin the property, are members of the Now

Action Group…

F ...Yes…

P2 …There are certain people have bought into it. I think to solve it, the

pedestrian, high [INAUDIBLE] pedestrian’s group let that [INAUDIBLE],

but, and, covertise [?] it, advertise it, and try get people involved. And,

the reason why they need that information for the model and why we

need certain data, to communicate that to the people. That…It’s not

only to your benefit, it’s to our benefit as well.

10

F Alright, so it gets set up exactly like that, it’s basically an appeal for that

information and it’s an opportunity to explain why the information is

needed…

P2 …and a cap [?] on how, what the function should be, what should we

taken in to determine the faults and the whatever…

F … Yes, yes, okay now [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P5 …I think we must be careful that information only be used for this

project [INAUDIBLE] is not going to be used for something else,

otherwise people are not [INAUDIBLE]…

P2 Yes, we all…In that respect, we’re learning from Theo [INAUDIBLE]

prevention.

P3 So I would like to, we can, if we can get it near to improve the

modelling, and its number of boreholes, the borehole depth, water

quality in the borehole, great pumps if you would if you would be so, if

that may be forthcoming. I think that also will… Thousands of people

will just close up like clams if water affairs is there…

P5 …I think also, unfortunately [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F Well, again Theo, the point is, is that we’re hardly going to expect

people to stand up and say, well, here it is, we...the purpose of that

engagement is to try and sell to people why we need that, and then

there would be a mechanism for, you know, for them to supply the

information. So that’s how I’m understanding and its bearing around…

P3 … and, basically, I didn’t mention, most of the farmers here are not

registered with Department of Water Affairs…

F … Ja…

P …’Cause they tend to… They had a process, not long ago, the

irrigation farmers there [INAUDIBLE] irrigation farming [INAUDIBLE].

But they’re like satellites, they monitor…

F …Ja…

P2 … how much irrigation they do…

F …Ja, ja…

P2 …They, it’s not like it was in the past, and, I mean, let it be voluntary, if

somebody doesn’t want to submit the information, but let’s get

information, but then it’s available and most information…

11

F …Yes…

P2 …Doctor Du Toit can base his model on that …

F …Ja, absolutely, because it’s, you know, the greater the degree to

which you can validate the model, the better to everyone. Okay…

P3 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] can I see what information we

need…

F …Okay, no, but I’m not…

P2 … [INAUDIBLE] just make a point…

F …make a point, if you will, and then…

P2 …the reason we don’t have these things for months, you know,

[INAUDIBLE] agree with [INAUDIBLE]…

F …Ja, [INAUDIBLE]…

P2 …Exactly what, that they will, that, that information and then

[INAUDIBLE] what?...

P3 …Is that, si is that not meaning that everybody will know, okay…

F … just about the principle of the back [?] exchange, that’s all…

P5 …Ja, I think what we need also to [INAUDIBLE] in the procurement [?]

the mine said it and it’s going on. This information what you need, what

you get now, and the boreholes start to be dried, that the mines take

the responsibility to drill for the [INAUDIBLE]…

P3 …I think that’s the perfect centre of the information, the water was base

line …

F …Correct, that was part of the founding [?] principles of the Water

Forum [OVERTALKING]…

P3 …We’re getting ahead of ourselves there, and I think we need to focus

on this the information, and I’m not saying that’s not correct, in fact, the

Water Forum was brought into being, exactly, to act as a body, to also

hear complaints of any person as the town, as the farmer, and to have

a panel of scientists to investigate the issues. Before the mine, there

will need to be a very thorough hydro sink [?], so these things are way

off. But let’s, for now, work on the key ingredients that we need to get

the model up to a point where it will tell us where the hydro census

needs to be done should the mine come in…

F …Okay, I still…

12

P2 … so that, I think, we need to look at the immediate cost at hand, if

that may [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F ...okay, I’m still very cool [?] and I’m…not the way I’m directing, that

would probably be Wayne, I’m probably cool [?] to recognise this Water

Forum, even, you know, even if it’s not duly [OR newly] constituted or

whatever it is, the whole driver of the establishment of that water forum

was to try and deal with the sensitivities around making data available,

that there was a, you know, it was very, that was the purpose of it. So

what I want to suggest is, who would we address as representing that

Water Forum. Is it that Doctor [BACKGROUND TALKING]…Pienaar

wants to come out, and I know it’s not right. So if we were to address it

to Doctor Prinsloo, and then organize this thing, kind of under the

auspices of the Water Forum, but obviously anyone that wants to

participate would be welcome, and we would certainly target and invite

a whole range of people that could come participate in that. Is that the

way to do it? [OVERTALKING]

P3 …No, [INAUDIBLE] it’s a part of the environmental impact assessment

process.

F Okay, then we’ll run it like that.

P3 …Look, it came from the Water Forum, [INAUDIBLE]…

F Okay, that’s. We’ll capitalize on the…

P3 …invite the water forum…

F …yes…

P2 …but they usually refuse it…

F … No, no. Definitely not. Alright, the second that is around further

access of properties that is still required. And I think that process, for

me, at least, is relatively clear, okay. Written requests to you, and then

to allow the process to unfold as a function of your engagement with

those property owners, and making sure that, that line of

communication is maintained at all times. Okay, so there’s no informal

access or whatever it is. So that’s an activity that comes upon you,

Theo, is to, within the next several days, to detail the property access

that is still required to source this information. Strek jy [?] Sanna?…

P6 … yes…

F …See, she does understand Afrikaans [INAUDIBLE][LAUGHTER].

Okay, and then, and then that process must be followed [INAUDIBLE].

13

Okay, alright, where does that leave us? In terms of us just going

forward. Emil?

P3 I’ve got one issue that I’m not clear on, that I’m very concerned about.

The whole access around the stadium, and if I have to do a

presentation [NAME] it appears to me be an artificial inundation is

going to be from [INAUDIBLE] if we don’t have a flood [BACKGROUND

NOISE]…

F …there’s a Safair fallout, this is the satellite assessment?

P3 Yes, it’s the satellite assessment, I understood, and the artificial

inundation, we’re going to review both of them to review, the one or the

other…

F … just clarify specifically [?], don’t worry about your pen and paper, you

clarify…

P3 If a nice flood is in, has been documented by satellite overpasses, so

that we’ll be able to construct the evolution of a flood over days, and

that can be mapped with the model, then the [INAUDIBLE] will make a

decision to decide, does this adequately verify the model. Especially if

it can be tied to a water balance and/or groundwater. If it’s not, if the

view be that it’s not, then we will proceed, so…

P2 …Because that is a very grave concern to me, because, initially, it was

already decided that flood even needs to happen. Because now it’s a

threat to us, with this big Holpro [?][INAUDIBLE] our names in

[INAUDIBLE], and if, as you rightly said Sean, time is not an issue, if

that is true, my next question is if it won’t flood again, if it’s going to

flood again, it's going to be soon, and if time is not the issue, then why

do we have to resort to all these, this other information that we don’t

know even whether it exists and artificial [INAUDIBLE] stop capturing

artificially. It’s going to complicate the whole issue, ‘cause now they’re

going to inundate…

P3 …Hypotheses on [INAUDIBLE]…

P2 … a certain portion. How do we know what effect that’s going to have

on studies in future, or whatever. So, to whom that the…from our

perspective, the flood event, it needs to start off with if…

F …But the bare minimum…

P4 … yes…

F …Ja, I mean, again, I’m not asking you to respond, you will have to

respond shortly but, this is really what I wanted to understand from

14

Theo, okay, is what is the process going forward? And the process

going forward is draft documentation in the public domain middle of

November. Okay, public meeting somewhere in that time, and

concluding the consultation process on about fifteenth of December for

argument’s sake, okay. So, I just don’t want a situation now, where we

respond to that by saying, okay, we hear you, and everything else. The

reality is, Emil, and you can comment on it, but, I mean, if we look at

what we’re talking about, satellite review, artificial tests, whatever it is, I

mean, basically, it’s four weeks. Four weeks is that…

P3 …and geolitically…

F …It’s, is that what we’re talking about?...

P3 … and excuse me…

F …yes…

P3 …geolitically [?], what I want to add to that, geolitically within the

[INAUDIBLE]. In that time there isn’t going to be a closing…

P2 …there’s no drawings [INAUDIBLE]…

F …And that…


F …Yes, yes…

P2 … But then you might as well then say, there isn’t going to be a

closing, let’s do it on this information, then that group can’t accept [?].

F Yes, yes.

P4 Because, if the water, as he said, is smoother [?] at the closed system,

all the water’s going across to the Olifants, I [INAUDIBLE]. What kind of

a hypothesis are you going to get from two major opposing different

scenarios…

F …yes…

P4 …if, unless they’d known, then you’re modelling one…

F …yes…

P4 …It doesn’t make sense on a layman’s, or an expert’s perspective

because the variables are…

F …sorry, I…

15

P4 …How the hell do you model that?

F But again, Wayne, from my point of view, as the facilitator, what I don’t

want to do is, I don’t want to walk away from this discussion saying, oh

no, it’ll be addressed, it’ll be considered. The reality is, is that it’s

literally, I mean, wrapping up this work within the next four weeks, and

then into public meetings and everything else. So, ja, this is…

P2 …[INAUDIBLE] McCarthy has studied this system for the last…

F …Pretty much his whole life…

P2 ...Yes, so, that and he still, he says certain things are complex, there’s

certain things he doesn’t understand about…

F … Even after all those years of study, ja…

P2 … He doesn’t know where the water goes as a woods or mountains

whether it flows like this, he doesn’t know, we’ve had those

discussions. Amply [?] we’ve had those discussions. So, you know,

the other way to do it with this information that…Because that’s the

reason we initially objected, and wanted a closing [?], because all that

state of the art technology that we did, and computer simulated facts,

with all due respect, we can’t accept that.

P3 In real life, that’s a fact…

F …ja…


F …Ja, you do…

P3 …remember that a lot of that work carried across from the

[INAUDIBLE], so a lot of things have been done…

P2 …Sorry, can I just stop you there, but this specific was not done…

P3 …I know…

P2 …Because they decided to do…

P3 …I understand. So this is a different act, it is complicated, and it may

not work, and that’s why those aspects are [INAUDIBLE]. So, the

major issue that you face, in terms of the MPREA [?], is that, you get

the mineral rights sorry, the prospecting rights, and you have a limited

period within which to undertake work, and apply for a mining right, so

you have, you count the type one, type two, type three, then that

prospecting right lapses. So, unfortunately, we are forced to bring

16

whatever we can to this problem, and if it’s not adequate, then it’s not

adequate. And I’m not trying to tell you, what I’m trying tell you is

[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …look really [INAUDIBLE] of what I can [INAUDIBLE] you…

P2 … We don’t, we don’t, we’re not [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F ...You don’t, you don’t, no…

P2 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] if we use those methods additionally,

we find no problem, but the minimum that we want is a flood event…

F …ja…

P2 … If they got the coal[?], if they lose out their prospecting rights, we’ve

also, were also losing, we also compromised [INAUDIBLE]

[OVERTALKING]…

F …No, boetie, boetie…

P3 …I hear you, and it’s noted like that, and the process will carry that with

it and when we have results, we will valuate it in, and the hand of the

applicant with you. You will be able to [CELLPHONE RINGS] look at it,

and then raise it, and those forms[?] will go to the authorities. That’s

unfortunately the situation in which we are legally, with respect to

mining applications, [INAUDIBLE]. And, at the end of the day, you

know, I would like to do it in a way that there is some science behind it,

more than just assumptions and conceptual statements, because that

is, pretty much, par for the course in the mining world…

P2 …Maybe one comment…

F …Make the comment then I’ll come to you.

P2 I think the applicant, and I don’t want an answer to this, I think the

applicants are shifting the Creator [?] to do miracles, they can’t,

because we can’t, within the time limits, and this complexity of this

whole thing, we can’t, it can’t be done, it’s impossible for us [?].

P7 Ek wil net ‘n vraag vra…

F …ja…

P7 …nou, daar was voorgestel dat [INAUDIBLE] met deurkom, maar as

die goed [?] deurkom, wat gaan hulle wees? Wat is julle plek? Daai tipe

goed moet ook na gekyk word. Wan’t dit help nie hierdie goed kom

deur, en julle’t net een plek om in te meet, daar moet iets wees om te

meet, daar moet iets wees waarom [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

17

F …Let’s test that, okay. And, just for my own benefit okay, when do the

flood events typically occur? Are they, sort of, a late summer event?

Sort of January, February…

P2 …should be March, April…

F …Okay,perfect [BACKGROUND TALKING], oh, okay…

P3 …It depends on where it rains, and how it rains as well, and this is

the…

F …Shure, sure, okay, but fundamentally nothing happened this last

period?

P3 For the last two years, it hasn’t come down, and it depends whether it

rains in the mountains…

F …ja…

P3 …And it depends whether it rains in Nylstroom, or whether it rains

here, or…

P8 …[INAUDIBLE] Januarie wat opge[?] het en [INAUDIBLE] van bo af…

F …ja, ja…

P7 Sewe [INAUDIBLE] jare, sewe [INAUDIBLE] jare.

F [LAUGHS] Ja well, although I must say, that the…Did you follow the

discussion, so it’s basically about being set up to make sure that, in the

event that there is a flood event, that the monitoring equipment is in

place. Okay, so [INAUDIBLE] a question for you Theo, because, I

think, the point that we’ve come to be simply will not be, your point

Emil, there simply will not be a flood event under, unless climate

changes [INAUDIBLE] but it’s certain things…


F …just call it…

P3 … I think [INAUDIBLE]…

F …Even that will be too late, so, so there’s no, there’s not going to be a

flood event before this MPREA [?] application is concluded. That’s

fundamentally what we’re talking about. Okay, what can happen, what

can happen and it comes back to this question, what then happens in

terms of, potentially, it does occur in March, April, May. What then

happens? Does it does it just get ignored, or does it…How does it find,

how does [INAUDIBLE] find its way back into the process?

18

P3 Unfortunately, I don’t have the answer, there three scenarios, four,

there’s really four scenarios. But, the first one is that, and, is that we

can model and verify at the hand of satellite imagery, the reservations

have been put, and we have actually provided there, but it may not

work. The second scenario is, should that not work, that we request

the DMR [?] that we look at the inundation experiment, which will also

have to involve the Department of Water Affairs, because, in effect, you

are working in the area of the river. If that cannot take place, then we…

there is the opportunity to submit, until the twenty eighth of January,

and we can make that submission, saying we have done all of this, the

only thing that we haven’t seen is…

F …the flood event…

P3 …would be the flood event, and, the effect with the, and you are… and

in fact they can say you have so many days in which to produce a flood

event…

F …Theo…

P3 … If that doesn’t happen, then…

F It doesn’t, the one time in your farming [INAUDIBLE] that you’ve

actually prayed for a drought. [LAUGHTER]

P3 …I…

F …but, just a question for you while you’re talking, I mean, what is this

inundation thing, I mean is it very feasible?

P3 I think it is…

F …I mean in the time, and in the…

P3 …It won’t, I don’t think it’s feasible before [INAUDIBLE], but I think it

can be done.

F Okay, but then again, there can’t be any expectation of that going to

happen. So basically, the issue is, is that it’s going to be, it’s the

satellite analysis, and that’s it, ‘cause nothing else is going to happen in

that time…

P5 Why isn’t it guaranteed?

P3 Well, I think, you asked whether the monitoring equipment is in place, if

it is in place, it needs to be maintained, and it needs to be in a state of

readiness. Two, that is in place, but it is possible to section off part of

19

the wetland and inundate it with water, and then to measure the

behavior of that.

F okay, but again, and I don’t want this point to be lost, okay, you

presented three options, but in fact, there’s only one option actually.

Which is just the satellite analysis, ’cause there is nothing else that

can…

P5 …now what it can the satellite offer [INAUDIBLE] guarantee, how it

works and what effect it got?

P3 Look, the flood dynamics, I think, will be less censored in terms of the

[INAUDIBLE] data, and in terms of satellite imagery. If it can be

accessed, then you can [INAUDIBLE] put together in that, that you

have missed a number of incidents, rainfall here, rainfall there, while

the flood will form in one area, and never actually progress all the way

down and [INAUDIBLE] floods in the full extent. So, those sort of

scenarios, I think, have been modeled previously and, those modelers

earned money to get that, we need to bring it to the same level. If that

doesn’t work, then we’re onto the next best thing which is an inundation

experiment, and if that doesn’t work, then there’s the flood and the law,

and I don’t think there…you know, the situation that you’re faced with, if

you sit with an applicant, and a prospecting rights holder, that have like

and economic interests in it, then you have a regulator in the law, and

they would…and that will attempt to engage until it has a mining right,

or until that…It can be conclusively stated that it’s flawed and should

not get one. So we are, unfortunately, in the process, and it’s actually

one of the most interesting, and painful effects of the MPREA [?]

regulations.

F …Ja, no, look, [INAUDIBLE] consequences, but I’ve got an inkling that

he wants to ask a question, and I don’t know what it was, but…

P1 … You know, [INAUDIBLE] going on, and I was really hoping to

[INAUDIBLE] think about it in forms a little bit different for the others.

[INAUDIBLE] backyard company [INAUDIBLE] farms [INAUDIBLE]

farming. Because they did a model, I don’t know, where there’s a river

where it was, which farm it is. And they drew up a model on how the

water’s [INAUDIBLE] the damn to affect that area. [INAUDIBLE].

We’ve got tons of developments, we’ve got towns, we’ve got up swirl,

down swirl. There’s the environmental [INAUDIBLE]. In that interest,

we went after their mines and mining, and drawing the water out, and

with all the promises of everything that was supposed to happen, and

not happened. But, that’s why, Mr Du Toit, that was, you can remember

that discussion, that, I think was a [INAUDIBLE] that the model was

20

wrong. And, in hindsight, the mine said, oh, we’re so sorry, the model

was wrong. I would like to ask a question and put in on record two

different things. If the model, if we have to resort to this plan Z, which

we have, we are going to have to, we have to land it and [INAUDIBLE]

whatever it’s [INAUDIBLE], so we can all register [OVERTALKING]…

F …That’s on the school run [?] [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 hilary? But, if we land up [INAUDIBLE] same models [?][INAUDIBLE] opulently

[INAUDIBLE] with the International [?][INAUDIBLE] all this is going

[INAUDIBLE]. [INAUDIBLE] and that model is wrong? I’m asking this

question, I want to know, what [INAUDIBLE]. I want to have them state,

in their documentation, how they will compensate the community, how

they will compensate the land owners in the area, I want to know how

they will compensate in every respect, agriculturally, drinking water

wise, agricultural water wise, [INAUDIBLE], in every area that’s not

concerned about this mine [INAUDIBLE]. I want to know how they are

going to compensate for that [INAUDIBLE] drinking tap water [?].

[BACKGROUND TALKING]. [INAUDIBLE] how our community is going

to be ultimately, and that goes on to the next question, we are going to

need, in all cases, our neighboring land owners, the value of our

property is going down, [INAUDIBLE] just not wanting to have all the

influences of mines, all the [INAUDIBLE], all the vehicles, all the

positions. Second to[?] how our community’s going to be compensated

for water, lights and all the rest of it, I want to know how, and we’ve

posed this question before, and we haven’t had an answer to this, we

asked them to put it on record, which it doesn’t, we want to know how

all neighboring properties are going to compensated for this. It’s

common practice to have buffer zones around mines that create

[INAUDIBLE] kind of environment? For [INAUDIBLE] school, the

government has done [INAUDIBLE] includes certain eventualities as

part of what they planned to do. It must be they want to build a golf

course and a little [INAUDIBLE] rubbish, okay, satisfied. We want to

know how, our community [INAUDIBLE] are all going to be

compensated and mitigated, etcetera, for our loss, for the losses that

we are getting into, and that must be part of the package for

[INAUDIBLE]…

F …okay…

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] some model, and not conclusive evidence…

F …well…

21

P1 …’cause they’ve been using some models, to make a very, very, very

controversial decision.

F Ja, look, the…sorry, I hope you don’t mind me slouching on the table,

but, [INAUDIBLE] [OVER TALKING]…

P3 … Can I start with the modelling part? Respond to that one?

F You can, but there’s something that I just need to say before that, and

that is that, you know, the reality of any environmental assessment

process is that it’s a predictive process and you can’t allow the

development to go ahead and then evaluate it, so every one of these

[INAUDIBLE] is predicted, and some of them are more controversial,

more uncertain, some of them less so. Okay, this is a critically

important one. They are some options and I’m, as the facilitator, I’m

going to present to you. There’s some, quite interesting, stuff that’s

been done in the Netherlands, on risk assessment, okay, where it’s

often very easy for an applicant to say, oh, one in a ten thousand risk,

oh, no, I can live with that risk. Okay, so what you can do, is you can

actually link a consequence for the applicant in the event that the, that

have transpired. Okay, so that’s something that could be explored in

terms of conditional decision making. If we say, okay, so there’s a high

degree of confidence in the model, which would suggest that the

applicant is prepared to say, alright, in the event that we get it wrong,

we are so confident that it won’t be wrong, event that we get it wrong,

we are prepared to put up a signed commitment in terms of how we

will…

P1 …Is that advice?...

F …No, that’s it…

P1 …Because, you know what, [INAUDIBLE] a person about this

advertised [INAUDIBLE] meanwhile those people had disappeared,

[INAUDIBLE]…

F … No, absolutely, [BACKGROUND TALKING] and it’s got to be

[INAUDIBLE] with whatever it is. So there are certain things that can

be done, but, Hilary, the bottom line is, that whichever way you look at

it, we’re in an imperfect process, we use predictive process, we predict

using the best available tools and even Wayne [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 [INAUDIBLE] [TALKING IN BACKGROUND]

F Yes, but that has to be understood, but, what i2 incumbent upon the

environmental assessment practitioner in to say, if this is the point

agreed, is that we are satisfied that we’ve used the best possible tools,

22

but we have to understand, that in the event of this being wrong, the

consequences are massive, and that’s what the decision maker’s going

to have to weigh up is to say, are we prepared to take that chance, and

allow this mine to go ahead? But, unfortunately that’s just the reality of

what you get stuck with. Okay, in terms of the second issue, again I

don’t want to say to you, oh, no, well, it will be looked at. The reality is,

is that there’s very little precedents, if any, very little precedents

indeed. And, ja, you’ve been in the business a hell of a…[laughter] an

awful long time, very, very few precedents we have been able to

translate loss of property value, loss of amenities [INAUDIBLE] in terms

of neighboring properties. Many celebrated cases of people living on

the coast, and some other dinny [?] comes and builds a six

[INAUDIBLE] [OVER TALKING]…

P7 …Kan ek [INAUDIBLE] ek wil net ‘n voorbeeld gee wat gebeur het in

hierdie land. Hulle het ‘n Stukkie grond het hulle gegaan, en by die

boere gepraat, hulle wil die wind [INAUDIBLE] opsit. Maar

[INAUDIBLE] is ‘n baie onooglike ding. Nou dis statistiek wat kan

gebeur hierso. As jy al jou aanleggende boere, wat direk benadeel

word, deur die stigtiging van hierdie myn. Om hierdie boere betrokke te

kry, en om hulle aan jou kant te kry, het hulle daar ‘n ander plan

gemaak, hulle het gesê, kom, die boere word jaarliks vergoed teen X

bedrag vir die nadele wat hulle beweer met die vragmotors, met polisie.

Want hulle kan nie die grond verkoop nie, want daar’s nie kopers nie,

want wie gaan daar verby gaan? Hulle het [INAUDIBLE] benadeel,

daar moet ‘n vergoedings reëling getref word, waar dit ‘n opbrengs het,

of waar dit ‘n aandeel is of wat ok. Dit is…dis ‘n [INAUDIBLE] . Maar

die gedagte gaan daaroor, hoe kan jy die boere wat benadeel word, of

jou [INAUDIBLE] wat benadeel word aan jou kant kry, en dis alleen om

hulle, op ‘n oodentlike manier te vergoed te kom.

F Ja, se my…Again, I can, very glibly, sit here and say, oh, no, we’ll look

into that and…The reality is that it’s highly unlikely that it’s going to

take…

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] for it…

F …No, I understand that…


F Okay, Hilary, the repostial [?] issue is that it absolutely needs to be, let

me just check, Sanna, you’ve captured the issue?…


23

F Well, there were two issues, I mean, this is really an elaboration of

what Hillary was asking for [INAUDIBLE] issues that Hillary is raising,

firstly, if things do not work out as predicted, what liability does the

mine carry to deal with that, and secondly, what does… What is the

mine going to put up anyway, in terms of the loss of immunity, the loss

of property value, changing lifestyle, etcetra, [INAUDIBLE]. So, it’s

captured like that. I just hate the idea of saying, oh, no, somebody will

look into it, but I know…

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] asking for it…

F Okay, so that’s fine…

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVER TALKING]

F …yip…


F … And I think, also the principle of the way that you expect it is that

this is a way of creating a situation of goodwill, of creating proper

neighborliness, and all of that. It could be used, really by the mine as

an investment in terms of…

P2 …That’s what we always hear from mines, and it’s not only this mine,

you hear from the mines, they’re coming to our area, and they come

here to do good, and they’re here to have an agreement with the

community, and to assist the community, and they don’t want to fight

with the community, they actually want to work in cooperation with the

community. They’ve always got this nice …

F …platitude…

P2 …Yes, [INAUDIBLE] that they’ve got, and if it is so, if we’ve got to

accept that, that is so, why do they [INAUDIBLE] tell them a blue tail [?]

farm it’s the crops where the [INAUDIBLE] it’s the place where you get

hunters from America, or wherever, and they're not coming to hunt next

to, same with [INAUDIBLE], they're not coming to hunt next to a mine,

where there’s a pit and every half an hour a blast is going off. I mean,

it’s that serious, about that they want to work together with the

community [INAUDIBLE] [OVER TALKING]…

P3 …put their money in with the lot…

P5 …then what they…

F Okay, I…

24

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] agriculture and [INAUDIBLE]going on. It’s talking about

the water processing tools [INAUDIBLE]…

F Okay, we’ll get that sorted out…

P4 I have to go.

F No problem.

P4 Thanks hey.

F Okay, [INAUDIBLE] [BACKGROUND NOISE] story. Kip[?]…

P3 …Let me just make…

F …Yes, I know you wanted to make some comments on the modelling

[INAUDIBLE].

P8 I’d just like to go back to the [INAUDIBLE] before I [INAUDIBLE]. I’m

also heavily involved in the Northern Cape iron ore mines, they are

orders [INAUDIBLE] more than what would come up here. In the stratic

enodometic [?] structure is… the impact’s high, why? It’s about

impossible to predict because these dolomitic solution cavities, where

are they? You know, by caves underground, we can’t detect them so

we’ll never know [INAUDIBLE]. And, for me, the important thing is, the

pressure from the community, should all be feeling that, I’m honoured

for that. You know, I think that’s rather important, I think it’s very

important that the company know exactly where all the boreholes are

before they start mining [CELL PHONE RINGS] you must know

everything about all boreholes, what their water levels are, what the

recovery rates are, things like that could be known, and if there… If

any farmer, ever, suspects that he might be influenced by the mine,

then at least you’ve got a database, at least you’ve got to check it.

And, my finding there was that, if that could be proven beyond doubt,

they will always compensate. They, you know there’s no doubt, I think

the law even…

P2 But the problem with the law is, it’s a problem for the lay person with

the law, the normal citizens with the law, that the law isn’t as testable

as we think it is. To take on a big mining company, and to prove, in

your own words, beyond reasonable doubt, and, in this case, you’d

have to prove on a balance of probabilities, which isn’t a simple thing.

So you’d have to go, you’ve got to go and [INAUDIBLE]. That you

can…you going to have to do steps that are…so who would want,

except the mines, to gain experience about, that they want them to

have the impact that they claim they’re going to have, and that is

confirmed with the community, are over-exaggerated. We will want the

25

mine to make that commitment beforehand, that the necessary checks

and balances are in place, without having had to go to court.

P8 Ja, but I think that, from what I’ve seen there, the mine’s not a bride [?],

let me… In that case, we are working on behalf of the community.

We’re not working for the mines, we’re working for the community in

that case, so…And, the mine just have to, they have to…If we can

prove that the farm was impacted…

P5 …then you must start to monitor it from now…

P8 …Exactly [INAUDIBLE] [OVER TALKING]…

F … But again, one of the rationale for the Water Forum is that there,

you know, that there’s a body that can operate independently of the

EIA process that is going to look at checking up that database,

checking up those patterns that can be used, ja]…

P5 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] for the equipment to put on the

borehole, we need that, we need to measure it.

P8 Well, it’s the mines. In that case the mine pays the bills to

[INAUDIBLE][OVER TALKING]…

P1 …That could be done by another body that is not…

P8 …we do it…

P1 …firsthand to do with mines, those plans [?] must be made available,

so that somebody doesn’t…wouldn’t cut out [?] the community, ‘cause

who has responsibility, so that they report back to us as a community,

not report with their equipment, and bring it to the mines. The

community wants that commitment that they foot the bill, and that it’s

independent, and run the tests, and then we want them to come back

to the community…

P8 … Can I just add to that, please?...

F …Yes, do that, but then I’m going to ask you to comment on something

if you could Nick.

P8 There we have the Tsepeng [?] Water Board, they are a factory [?]

organization, situated in Postmasburg, they regulated the whole area

from Postmasburg up, beyond, even up to Black Rock, and they are

the custodians of the database, and everybody that’s interim in that

area, whether it’s consultants, whether it’s the mines, if a borehole is

drilled, or any water levels are measured, they are…They must give

that information in to the Tsepeng [?] Water Board, and they keep the

26

rec…database, and it’s free for everybody to access that data. So, ja,

it’s an independent body, and it works well in my opinion.

P1 … Is there a lot of pumps [INAUDIBLE]…

P8 …exactly, it…

P1 There’s just one problem at the moment, with the government function

on water, there’s a lot of problems around water, water rights, legal

routes, that sort of thing. So there’s a lot of…

P8 Ja, I know…


P9 …I know…

P1 … [INAUDIBLE] also notice [INAUDIBLE] notice, you know what I’m

saying, so [INAUDIBLE] that most of us are quite financially clued up,

but even community need to share that information [INAUDIBLE] so

the people have a lot to lose with this whole new water [INAUDIBLE]…

P8 … Can I…

P1 … not be comfortable doing that with that [INAUDIBLE]…

P8 Can I just tell you that the information, currently, accumulated at

Tsepeng [?] is just to…ja, if you have been…If you need a borehole to

be drilled, [INAUDIBLE], or measured water levels, and if [INAUDIBLE]

were done, about the strength of the borehole, but not…

F …[INAUDIBLE]…

P8 …No…

F …[INAUDIBLE]…

P8 …and things are not yet…

F …Alright…

P8 …Ja…

F … We’re just going to…

P8 …and then, [CELL PHONE RINGS] the, lastly the [INAUDIBLE]…

F …Okay…

P5 …I did[?][INAUDIBLE] but their destination will be disclosed, but not

the other [INAUDIBLE] this morning…

27

F …Yes, no, absolutely, and again, but that’s specifically related

information that’s made available to the EIA compartment for validating

their model. How the Water Forum operates in terms of information

that it holds, or…I mean these are really just suggestive as to how it

could operate…

P8 …and then…

F …okay…

P8 …and then, let’s get back to your question about the model, and its

relationship to its databases. I’d like to explain that one. When…what

we do with the model, we, you’re quite right, we all know that the

model, by definition, is not perfectly right…

P1 … No, it’s a [INAUDIBLE]…

P8 …I wouldn’t say wrong, but it’s not perfectly right, it’s impossible, I

mean, the subsurface is just that complicated that… So what we try to

do is, is to over-exaggerate the…take the worst case [INAUDIBLE]. If

we had time on the Water Board, I’ll give you a presentation of half an

hour, just to explain how we do it. To make sure that we, sort of, go for

the worst case, which might even also be wrong, because there might

be some flippin’ [?] practice which we are not comp…we were not

aware of, you know, but, to the best of our information. Now, what’s

that serves to do, is to say okay, within this zone that might impact it,

that’s where the mine should want to [INAUDIBLE] all boreholes, okay.

If it finds a starting point, that’s what it does…

P1 …that’s right…

P8 …and then, what we do is to follow up, follow up, follow up, and then

we can easily see that, okay, in some certain areas, the impacted zone

seems to be privy [?], but in other zones it’s before. So that case

we…the boreholes that has to be monitored, by the mine, just expands

in that [INAUDIBLE]. So, it’s not a static thing, it’s a dynamic impact

zone that will develop with time, and hopefully, it will not spread. That’s

my intention, and it shouldn’t go beyond my boundaries, but, it might

happen. But the [INAUDIBLE] measuring is the thing, that’s where you

stand fork [?], and we have to, that’s important. It’s absolutely

overriding…

F …Okay [INAUDIBLE]…

P2 … On that point, where it is, wherever it is, whatever it’s about, over

how long period?...

28


P8 …For as long as the mine operates.

P2 But, I mean, before you compile the model…

P8 Well, of course, we [INAUDIBLE]…

P2 …[INAUDIBLE], for how long period?

P8 For…okay, let me say, if we start on any project, we do such a hydro

[INAUDIBLE] borehole. On boreholes within a radius, what we think is

applicable, I think at this stage it’s been rather wide, in some places up

to five kilometres. Okay, then, before mining starts, you repeat that, just

make sure then…And, ideally, there should be two or three

measurements before mining’s started, so that you know exactly what

the reaction boreholes is with seasons, and those kind of things.

P2 So it’s over seasons? Two or three?…over seasons?

P8 Well, at least one season [INAUDIBLE], you know, this area is a little

bit abnormal in the sense that the water level goes down all the way,

but, normally, it’s a seasonal thing…

P2 Isn’t this one abnormal because of the specific characteristics and

uncertainties with regard to this river’s [INAUDIBLE], the complexity of

this river.

P8 I think, no, mainly…

P2 … that reason, should it, for that reason, be taken over a longer

period?

P8 I think, what we’ve feel in the graph, is there, the water level goes down

in a straight line, you know, it’s…that’s what will happen and I think

it’s…

P2 …That’s when there wasn’t a flood…

P8 …Exactly, so, and the flood brings it back, so, in this…

P2 …We don’t know what’s going to happen if the flood comes, it should

bring it back.

P8 It should bring it back.

P2 But, over how long period, and what type of flood should bring it…

P8 …That’s what…

29

P2 …to what level and…

P8 …and…

P2 …And that’s why we’re saying, there’s a full [INAUDIBLE] and two full

damns over feeding, and the cycles of the Nile River system should be

taken into account.

P4 …If the assumptions are wrong, then what? If the clay layer is broken,

then what? If the pits that are dug in that little piece of it are assumed

to be [INAUDIBLE] and they’re not, then what, then what, then what.

That is why the Department found [INAUDIBLE][OVER talking]…

P8 …No, I understand what you’re saying…

P4 …[INAUDIBLE] then what? And the then what’s, we’re not satisfied

that the then what’s are anywhere near…

P8 …No, the only thing I wanted to say is that, exactly what you’re saying

Wayne, is that we try to [INAUDIBLE] to the best of our possibilities…

P4 …accepted…

P8 …We try to define by that, whatever it [INAUDIBLE], and where, and so

forth…

P4 …agreed…

P8 … Anything that’s go wrong, according to my best knowledge, and

according to what I’ve witnessed so far, the mine is at fault…

P4 …and the other thing…


P4 …is the wetlands…

P8 …yes…

P4 …mines should not [INAUDIBLE], technically are not allowed in the

wetlands…

P8 …Ja…

P4 …why are we going through all the pain of [INAUDIBLE], when it’s not

allowed to mine in the flipping [INAUDIBLE]. It blows my mind that

[INAUDIBLE]…

P8 …Okay, I’ll comment on that one, that’s [INAUDIBLE] [OVER

TALKING]…

30

P2 …That saying that the [INAUDIBLE] is very important and then they

want to make it over a short period, and then all of us know it should be

over a longer period, in more localities, and, and, and… We’re saying

that the precautionary principles should be adhered to, and it shouldn’t

happen before [INAUDIBLE] effects clarity over the uncertainties.

P8 But, you’ll never clear it up completely, that’s your problem [OVER

TALKING]…

P2 …We understand that, but at this stage, it’s not being cleared up, even

fractionally…

P8 …okay…

P2 …’cause there hasn’t been a flood, and the [INAUDIBLE] over a

period…

P8 …ja, but, that we’ve heard, that there’s some constraint in time, over

which…


P8 …I think, guys like them, have got no…little…

P2 …the constraints of time, you can’t say because the


P8 …Granted, granted…

P2 …[INAUDIBLE] in the constraints of time, this is the best we can do in

the constraints of time…

P8 …granted…

P2 …we’re continuing there, there, there. You should say that… dit wil die

kar voor die perde…

P8 …Ja, ek sien…

P2 …Ons moet eers die goed reg kry, en dan kyk goed buite

[INAUDIBLE]…

P8 …Even I, we would like to do a perfect job [INAUDIBLE], ja…

P3 …Can I suggest that we start by improving the model, because, with an

improvement in the model, you will probably have a better answer on

that. If they have done an immense amount of effort, to try and model

a type of flood event, and I think the Water Forum can, if it brought into

being, the Water Forum can sit and then one can debate, and come to

the bottom of what is a reasonable period of time, to monitor, and when

31

will the mine say, we will take the risk. Should it be approved, when

will they say, we are comfortable with the risks, and taking them on to

ourselves. And that will then mean, if there’s any water supply if you…

in the borehole, and they knew that it wasn’t predicted, then they

improve methods [INAUDIBLE][OVER TALKING]…

F Ja, no, I think bottom line is, is that we, I think this debate eventually

going to go on and on, I think it’s been made absolutely clear, been

captured as such, Sanna, love your hair [?][laughs], that it does affect

the conclusion of the process, in the absence of a flood, your

preference would be a treble flood, with different characteristics and

[INAUDIBLE], and there’s nothing that stops you making exactly that

statement, and that statement being assessed in the assessment, and

the assessment findings. So, again, as the environmental assessment

factor [INAUDIBLE] it’s been counted upon Theo to ensure that the

decision makers [INAUDIBLE] material, it’s been counted upon Theo to

emphasize the consequences if it is wrong, I’m going to make it

absolutely clear, in that environmental assessment, then if it is wrong, if

things are…do not turn out as predicted, the consequences are

potentially severe, the decision makers must be made aware of that.

But, that… where that…

P1 …we need to [INAUDIBLE][SNEEZE IN BACKGROUND] and taken to

a competent authority and we’re hearing comments about this. None of

the environmental impacts have been supplied, and we need to do a

[INAUDIBLE] fatal flaw[?]. [COUGHING IN BACKGROUND]

[INAUDIBLE] saves us time[?]. So we have to rely on [INAUDIBLE]

speak, and we hear comments like this, [INAUDIBLE] provided with a

written engagement, that for now are [INAUDIBLE]…

P3 …No, I think…

P1 …I’m just saying, are we expected to rely on [INAUDIBLE] if we don’t’

have full statements [?] to start with?

P3 If we’re going backwards to you, maybe it wasn’t their intention, but it’s



P5 …then the poor people, [INAUDIBLE] it gives them another

[INAUDIBLE]. That first part of the statement is not necessary, to say

those fatal flaws exist, except if this and this and this happens.

P1 Look what you’re saying, [INAUDIBLE] predicted there is a fatal flaw,

who should deal with the advocates?

32

P3 Well, as you say, it hasn’t been established that the fatal flaws exist,

but [INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …who’s [INAUDIBLE][OVER TALKING]…

F …But that is what they gave their…

P3 …civil [?] attorney…

F …Yes, look, I think, okay, Hilary, I hear where you’re coming from,

okay, but…

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] would get a [INAUDIBLE] to write a report a report that

is accurate, [?] they offer it to us [INAUDIBLE]…

F …Yes, but again, what I see, okay, what I see, is a crumbly way of

expressing something…

P1 …and he wants us to go with that?...

F …and that’s fine, and that can be done, and I think what is


P1 …[INAUDIBLE] to put our time, and use our legal advisor, to go

through, word for word, and pay for him to do it…

F …ja…

P1 …so it’s ‘cause they can’t write a report accurately. It’s our money, it’s

our time, we don’t want to [INAUDIBLE], we hate it, and we have to

cough up. We don’t have all those resources, and now we have to go

through the same process a second time, [INAUDIBLE] our half. No,

don’t want to pay for this. We do not have money to do this ten

times[?]. It’s going to happen five times [INAUDIBLE] what they do,

knowing what they know. Farmers don’t have money to do this…

P3 …Well, look, I know, I don’t know what to say to you…

P1 …Well, I’m telling you [NAME], pay for it…

F3 …it’s just there’s nothing to say…

P1 …Well then, let’s not do it. Do you know what the cost is to

[INAUDIBLE], you have no idea, he gets paid by the mine for his time,

we shouldn’t waste the time or the money, we do not have the money

to [INAUDIBLE] all that. [INAUDIBLE], spend our time seeing

advocates for what? This mine couldn’t go ahead, we all know it in our

heart of hearts. [INAUDIBLE] not costing them the mighty Dollar,

[INAUDIBLE], we have to sit here cough up. You know what, I’ve got

33

better things to do with my money. I want to educate my kids,

[INAUDIBLE]. [INAUDIBLE] they must compensate me, for the

problems I have to deal with at the moment. I’m not a community[?],

but I also don’t have money to keep pulling out for this thing.

[INAUDIBLE you know what], it’s a big problem. [INAUDIBLE], nor

Patricia [?].

F [INAUDIBLE]…


F Is that the response you’re looking for? [INAUDIBLE]

P6 I think while the community is owed, [INAUDIBLE] reserve the right to

appoint [INAUDIBLE] their attorney firm, they also reserve the right not

to [INAUDIBLE]…


P6 What I’m saying is, why I emphasized, with the entry of the action

group today, they need to fend[?] for themselves [INAUDIBLE]. There

is also an option to get involved in the process [INAUDIBLE]. You

could just say, I don’t want this mine. I am a land owner, I’m a farmer,

I’m interested, I’m affected this way, I just don’t want this. [INAUDIBLE]

we’re trying to be tough and people pushers, and that’s where the

problem comes in, and at the regular meeting we do, we actually

[INAUDIBLE] have to engage with [INAUDIBLE] groups. When there is

a [INAUDIBLE] problem we get in another project, but it’s a process of

controversial [INAUDIBLE] that’s what. We’ve had that in [INAUDIBLE]

people, and they’re interested and affected, but you do not always

have to provide us with [INAUDIBLE] counter information of what the

[INAUDIBLE] have submitted. They could always come to the

Department and say, well I knew that the information couldn’t be

adequate, incorrect, like you’re putting it, therefore we request the

Department to look into this matter further. In principle, what you’re

saying is, appointed [INAUDIBLE] applicant [INAUDIBLE]. So what

you do, if you attended, is write [INAUDIBLE] to give them the

[INAUDIBLE], to give them the council’s reference, and then they

[INAUDIBLE] appoint that one, which will answer the questions. So

what I’m trying to say is, you have several options, for the interested

and affected parties to [INAUDIBLE] get involved, [INAUDIBLE] not

necc… And I’m not saying, they [INAUDIBLE] and applying that.

F But thereafter, the are some other options, and look, I think, that

comment is very well made and we appreciate it, there’s no two ways

about it. But I mean, you know, what I’m hearing in what Hillary

34

expressed, is it’s just a floatation [?], because even if it’s not a direct

payment of money, it’s all the time that you put into this, and all of that,

and that’s never accounted for in any way…

P6 And, when I’m hearing all this I’m thinking, I’m not going to

[INAUDIBLE] comment like that…

F …ja, no, sure…

P6 …[INAUDIBLE][OVER TALKING]. I would want to [INAUDIBLE] that

we need to find a way forward. I understand that we’ve got certain

[INAUDIBLE], that’s why I’m here. I understand that you are tired of

this whole thing, but in order for us, [INAUDIBLE], to be able to

understand, the extent of this program and what we’re delivering to

[INAUDIBLE], I would like you to extend a little bit of patience,for me,

and side[?] and [INAUDIBLE] what the way forward [INAUDIBLE] for

the water [INAUDIBLE] because [INAUDIBLE] water, and there is a

couple of socio economic, but the big thing is water, because it’s going

to affect the socio economic part of it. So if we could just start from

there, and then work with what comes in, then, we as the originator, we

are [INAUDIBLE] going to build confidence that [INAUDIBLE]. That’s

why I’m here, I need to [INAUDIBLE] not necessarily feel bad here, but

I’m feeling good. So I’m saying [INAUDIBLE] everything, let’s see if we

can implement what is [INAUDIBLE] and what [INAUDIBLE].

F Ja, look, I’m going to make the comment as well, I’ve been in the

environmental assessment business for twenty years, and I can count

the number of public meetings that [INAUDIBLE] represented by

people such as your…you can count them on your hand, so, from that

point of view I want to say, we’re absolutely delighted that you’re here,

I’m also delighted that you’ve heard first hand, some of the frustrations

that have been expressed. It would have been even better still, if

someone from DMR was sitting next to you, but we can’t have

everything. But, look Hilary, the bottom line is, I, you know, I don’t know

how to respond to you because this is the reality, but I…

P1 …we wanted the [INAUDIBLE] answer us [INAUDIBLE]…

F …No, sure, and it is, it’s a heavy burden you carry, and you just

happen to be…


F ...Yes, happen to be living in a place where…

P3 …minerals…

35

F …their mineral…I don’t know, I don’t know if this is going to be

appropriate, but, but the guy I used to work with, he had this beautiful

cartoon in his office, and it was a about an angel making the world, and

he was basically saying, okay, what we’ll do, is we’ll put the mineral

resort just here, under the, by the blitz [?] areas. I don’t know what the

[INAUDIBLE] was saying. That's, unfortunately, the reality of what

we’re facing. I was at this IAIA conference two weeks ago, and I was

asked to participate in a panel discussion, where the people feel that at

the IAIA conference we’re always being negative, we go and we bleat

and moan and complain about how inefficient the EIA process is, and

we don’t see what we want to see. So I was asked to take place in…to

take part in a panel discussion, where we wanted to share positive

stories, and I wanted to, after twenty years in the business, I, there was

not one that just was at my fingertips, I had to think, geez, what actually

constitutes a good news story? And so, eventually, I managed to think

of one, and I went into the panel discussion, and it’s not really a

comfort for you, but we were reminded that, you know, we’ve got to

think also about where we are today versus where we are, or where we

were thirty years ago. But, at least we have these processes, at least

we have the opportunity to engage. I mean there’s a horrific story, I

don’t know if you know about the veered [?] path route, the new N3

routing that SANRAL want to, they want a new routing for the N3. Now

in the nineteen eighties they went and they bought out a whole series

of farms along that alignment, when I say bought out, I mean quite

heavy handedly…


F ...Yes, okay, now they want a slight variation in that route, and there’s a

farm, a family that were moved as part of the original routing, and now

they want to move them somewhere else because now they're in the

way again. You know, so, I mean it’s a cold comfort for you, I know

that, but, I suppose, the only way to look at it is to say, you have this

opportunity for engagement, you have ability to try influence, you have

the, at least one of the officials here hearing these issues…

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] of opinion, or something, [INAUDIBLE] have an

unbelievable environmental [INAUDIBLE] station, really tough

environment [INAUDIBLE] [BACKGROUND NOISE] we are not playing

[OR paying]…

F …yip…

P1 … [INAUDIBLE] and we are not happy…

F …Well there different…

36

P1 …with what’s happening with the environment…

F …ja…

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] seen the problems in our environment [INAUDIBLE]

[OVER TALKING]…

F …But, there different options as well, because, I mean, I was saying to

Neil before this meeting that the international lender requirements are

also a key issue, so, I doubt very much whether Sylvania would be able

to fund this mine off their own balance sheet. They’ll have to borrow

money, and the lenders of that money are also under pretty severe

obligations in terms of environmental and social consequences with the

money they lend, so there’s different options.

P1 We’ve been talking about, you know, water influence today, but think of

the impact on the roads and the town and, you know…

F …ja…

P1 … [INAUDIBLE] business [INAUDIBLE]…

F …no, sure…

P1 …those are good [INAUDIBLE] and I think that [INAUDIBLE] create

that [INAUDIBLE] for us.

F Ja, and I think, if nothing else, from what we’ve said, you’re going to

have a… you’re going to have Nicky [?] writing it in the class here,

because we spoke about, when you were out, we spoke about some

additional steps that were going to happen, and, really we’re going to

do whatever needs to be done to make those as efficient as possible,

so that we can participate to get the best possible return from the

participation.

P1 Okay.

F And we [INAUDIBLE] more that we can offer.

P3 Can I, then project that we try and aim for a water forum and a protest

by which we will approach for…

F …Right, remember Neil’s comment there’s going to be a meeting that

is part of the EIA a process, and I think that’s sensible. Neil is going to

capitalize, it will draw in the water forum. Basically, the principle is to

set up that meeting in the very near future, with a view to then

presenting information requests, providing some context as to why

that’s important, and then seeing if a facilitated data transfer can…or if

37

they’ve, [INAUDIBLE] the information can be [INAUDIBLE] as part of

that [INAUDIBLE]…

P2 …Okay, there’s just one question I want to ask, if it’s flooding anyway,

can this in any way have an interim fault [?] on the stats [?]

[INAUDIBLE].

F The flood?

P2 Yes.

F Well, just hang on, in terms, what do you mean? In terms of how you

would characterize [INAUDIBLE]?...

P2 …does it in any way, because…

P3 …let me try and…

P2 …Obviously that’s very important, we’ve eventually got to know that…


P3 …No, I hear him, but I’ll try and answer, there’s a question, and the

question is, does the flood impact the groundwater draw down zone of

influence?

P2 Ja,[INAUDIBLE]

P3 no, but does the flood event determine the area?

P2 …[INAUDIBLE][OVER TALKING]…

P3 …There’s a different answer to, there’s a different answer, once there’s

draw down, and a flood takes place, what happens then?

F? That’s what I’m trying to…

P8 …ja, I did dynamic modelling to your model, where I brought in a flood

coming from the west, and that was on advice of principal [?]

[INAUDIBLE], most of the infiltration takes place at the Waterberg. For

the rest, I brought in a [INAUDIBLE] water from the west, and in this…

and, I had it on my computer, [INAUDIBLE] show you that, it’s quite

clear how this road of influence is used, so to say, the cone of

depression, how, if the flood comes in, how it comes in [INAUDIBLE]

comes in [INAUDIBLE]…

F …okay Theo…

P3 … [INAUDIBLE] if I can clarify, there’s the zone of the withdrawal, cone

of depression is not…it’s extent is not really determined by flooding.

38

It’s extent, may be determined slightly, because, by these top ladders

[?], the cone of depression is mostly determined by your K value and

how fractured of the rock is in this area. And that’s what we want to get

to]…

P8 …ja, but this is the impact, if, let’s say, this is your low river and then

you go up the Waterberg Mountains, the pit will now be somewhere

close to the [INAUDIBLE], and let me exaggerate a bit, and that will be

your cone of depression, the cap…

P1 …and that’s where the water comes from [INAUDIBLE]?...

P8 …Yes…

P2 …yes, it will be drawn down to that level.

P8 Ja, that means that, and this indicates that it’s the water level…

P2 …see that little triangle…

P8 …so, that’s the water level and [INAUDIBLE], now comes the big rains,

and there’s a lot of infiltration. The way I did my model, was to put

infiltration right into this area where run off from the mountains gets in

contact with the flat area, and that, of course, puts a lot of water into

pockets [?], and that would alter this cone of depression see, ‘cause

the waters will now flow heavily in this direction, because the water’s

trying to fill that hole, then…

P1 …so how does it look then, sorry…

P8 … and then it looks something like this. You have got a rise in your

groundwater level and that means your cone of depression, which had

extended to this point is now, only extended to that point. That’s what

happens, so, the water level, from the mine, is [INAUDIBLE] in your

land [?], it’s like a residual…

P2 Would it then, sorry Theo, would it then be unfair to comment and say,

unless the flood is a curve, or information and dating is gathered for the

flood, it would influence the zone of influence.

F But that is now like two. Remember the requirements for the flood, is to

do a proper model. exact…

P2 …the requirements, as I understood it previously, the requirements for

the flood was more to establish the surface water…

P8? …[INAUDIBLE]…

39

P3 …I can…[BACKGROUND TALKING] I can try and answer the question

like this, Emil, the area of draw down, this draw down, and the extent of

this cone, the draw down. In the absence of a flood, that is determined

by the porosity and connectivity of the geology underneath this. So,

that one can measure with pegs. So now, the extent of the draw down

is primarily determined by geological characteristics in that area.

P2 So that’s why my question was that there’s a flood event that we want

to see, to happen. That we normally won’t go into, and what we’re

saying is [INAUDIBLE] on the…

P3 …It will, take the larger extent and put the smaller, once it’s arised [OR

arrived], but then it will re-map it [INAUDIBLE]…

P2 …yes, but, isn’t that important that when we had that meeting about the

flood, and then, isn’t it then important to have that flood as it said, to

establish that zone of impact. I mean, I know it’s going to be

provisional, but…

F …Well, in a perfect world, yes, but that’s not going to ever happen

[INAUDIBLE] [OVER TALKING] Emil...

P3 …You know, I think the most important thing is, the maximum extent is

determined by geological characteristics. Upon heavy rain and a flood

event…

F4? …[INAUDIBLE]…

P3 …then it will be made smaller, but then, if we want to make that more

accurate, then we must understand the geology affected here, and that

is why [INAUDIBLE] [OVER TALKING]…

F …so, in a nutshell…

P3 …for this [INAUDIBLE] [OVER TALKING]…

F … So, in a nutshell, the effect of the flood is always to make sure the

draw down runs smaller?

P3 Correct.Not that it’s curbial [?], because, that… if that flood arrives, as

a type of groundwater flood, and the mine is not adequately prepared,

that is definitely a mess, and the report speaks to some of that. But the

extent to which the stone draws down, whether lesser or wider, is

determined by the porosity and the connectivity [INAUDIBLE]…

P8 … Can we quickly get onto my…

F …Kip [?] do you want Kip to [INAUDIBLE]…

40

P3 ...I think we’ll discuss that quickly and [INAUDIBLE] [OVER

TALKING]…

F … I didn’t get…

P8 …[INAUDIBLE] and it’s fine [INAUDIBLE]…

F …All right, let me just get some sense while you’re here, while you’re

getting sorted out. How close are we to finishing the discussion? Are

there other issues that you want to…

P3 …I think, one thing that we also just want to know is this, whether

there’s going to be, if I understand correctly, there’s going to be

another…there’s going to be…there will be other public participation

meetings in the general phase?

P2 correct…

F Yes…

P2 Yes, two of them, one in Mokopane, one in Mookgophong…

F …yes, and…

P2 …once we have an appointment. Kip, back to you…

F …sorry, [INAUDIBLE]…

P3 Sorry?

P6 They’re supposed to give me two of three, remember [INAUDIBLE] that

was requested also. Until we would have to [INAUDIBLE] of things.

P3 Okay. And there will be special…

P8 Okay, can I quickly just…

F …Go for it, [INAUDIBLE]…

P8 [INAUDIBLE] the high wall of an open pit, in the view to platinum and

coal in their or in the… between Britz and Rustenburg. That’s where

they ran into such a big problem they couldn’t even move, because [?]

of the pit. And, as a typical mine, he’s practicing things that could have

said, look, this is what it looks like in real life. Only, he hasn’t seen your

[INAUDIBLE] horizontal and vertical, and sometimes sub-horizontal

[INAUDIBLE] draw a submarine inter-crack. And that’s where your,

and that’s how water flows through the surface. And you know the

charateristics, you know the freq...You can’t count the frequency of

[INAUDIBLE] it’s impossible, unless exploded [?]. So what will you do,

if you bore a borehole? Drill a borehole into the subsurface, and then

41

pump the borehole, and then see how the cone of depression of the

borehole is sank, and that is the… what we call a hydraulic collectivity,

actually the turbine [?] And that’s what goes into my model. So,

[INAUDIBLE] that, it’s really, it’s extremely variable. It’s variable from

top to bottom. It is [INAUDIBLE] how, the upper, let’s say this is

[INAUDIBLE], and are much more cracked and weathered and

fractured and it gets more solid as you go down. That will… it’s also a

[INAUDIBLE] in this direction, there’s a big fault running right through

here, I’m not sure if you can see that, and that’s the one that is really

similar to what I expect you’ll get in the Magogopo [?] that runs through

one of the pits. That’s what delivers a lot of water into the [INAUDIBLE]

this graph of [INAUDIBLE] and you can, what happens is that, the

upper section [INAUDIBLE] that’s where your water sits that’s…it’s the

sponge, where your water sits and, then you can’t drill a boreholes in

here, because it’s too shallow, and your borehole will quickly run dry.

So what you try to do is get your borehole right through to a big crack

like [INAUDIBLE]. And this way will [INAUDIBLE] through these cracks,

and this will serve as a piping system to your borehole that will force

the water to the upper…

P1 So that why your model has [INAUDIBLE] at first [INAUDIBLE]

because most of the water goes…so why does it go to the top then?

P8 The cone of depression?

P1 That was the whole principle about that…

P8 …ja, you know, it…

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] will do it up to the top?

P8 Ja, you see, [BACKGROUND TALKING] somewhere, you’ve got to

stop, because if I take this…


P8 … if I take this [INAUDIBLE] reading, let’s start with this…

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] there the water comes…

P8 …Let’s say you’ve got flat, [INAUDIBLE] correct, lets draw this pit on

this side, and just say this is the, this is the pit, as [INAUDIBLE] and

this is your groundwater level, and this is your…this might be your

original groundwater level. Now, the question is, where is

[INAUDIBLE], where is your impacted zone? Where do you cut it off,

because this, these two actually, infinity, so these two spurs [?] they go

on about forever. So, you can’t say where they do, because that’s

42

impossible to define. So you have to define it, say okay, let’s cut if off

there or let’s cut it off there, and say that’s my cone of…area of

influence, and that… it’s rather subjective. I prefer it to be a difference

of five metres, these days. [INAUDIBLE] so that five metres is, very

typically, the seasonal variation, you know, it’s from summer to winter.

And any borehole, that is sensitive to a five metre variation, would run

dry in winter. You can get that with watering pumps. So, then that’s the

normal, [INAUDIBLE] on variability. It’s in that order, so that is why I’m

tell…

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] hand held pumps in our community

[INAUDIBLE], where they draw water for household use at that sort of

level…

F …that’s correct…

P8 …what, what…

F …that’s very true, that correct, but the point is, is that if you’ve

got…trying to deal with that, what you’re confusing potentially, is the

variation that occurs as a result of the changing season, versus the

variation that is brought about…


F …It does make…Okay, no you…


F …okay, what you’re saying is, ignore the mine, the mine’s not there,

and the people are using a hand held pump to draw water out, simply,

the seasonality of summer and winter, is going to mean, on some

occasions, those boreholes are dry. Okay, what they’re trying to

determine is the degree to which your draw down zone is actually

going to have a visi…what’s the terms that I’m looking for, a meaningful

influence on that [INAUDIBLE]. And, if you include that zone, in all

you’re doing, you create an opening requested. So that’s why you have

to draw the distinction between the two…

P3 I think Kip has propose…what Kip is proposing, is that the draw down

zone is defined, to be the area where the model indicates, water will be

withdrawn to a greater extent than the natural seasonal variability…

F …[INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING] close off at that pressure…

P9 Ja, and the other point is, you know, that there are limits to the

accuracy of the model, and for me to say that I’m...That I can predict

much better that the [INAUDIBLE] would be lawfully[?]…

43

P1 …questionable…

F …ja…

P8 …ja. So that’s why, and so it’s for two reasons I’ve been fine with the

[INAUDIBLE] to be quite honest, and for this project, I’ve worked it out

at five hundred. That’s one of the things I’ve [INAUDIBLE] to try to…


P8 …[INAUDIBLE]

P2 …[INAUDIBLE] there’s another one I’d like to tell you, very similar…

get to my… it’s that [INAUDIBLE] there.

P9 Very similar, but I’m going to [INAUDIBLE] where you can see it. It’s

[INAUDIBLE]…

P2 …I… is that better?...

P8 …that’s better…

P6 …ja…

P8 Can you see it? [INAUDIBLE] highly practiced on, and [INAUDIBLE],

where you can see your factoring, and…[INAUDIBLE] see a clear

indication of water erosion, and some horizontal crack [INAUDIBLE]

and if you hold it up properly, it’s easy to see that these [INAUDIBLE]

go down [INAUDIBLE]. Now, the only difference with this picture, and

the previous one that I’ve shown you before, this is not [INAUDIBLE]

[LAUGHTER].

F …Ja, very funny [?]…

P8 …They process it, as a result, the crater, you can see there, you can

see the extent of the crater running around here, and it’s a picture

taken in Boksburg [?]…

F …When were you there, Kip [?]?...

P5 …going to get the [INAUDIBLE]…

[LAUGHTER]

P3 …[INAUDIBLE] if we ask [INAUDIBLE] to please go mine there

[INAUDIBLE]…

F …[INAUDIBLE] to please go and mine there [LAUGHTER], ja, I guess

that was going to be the next…

44


F Okay, folks, anything else? ‘cause this [INAUDIBLE]. Yes, Emil?...

P2 …[INAUDIBLE][OVER TALKING] be longer, I don’t know if they’ve

been notified that there’s another mine company, that is established

here. I don’t say that they have the prospecting rights, but, on the…

P5 …[INAUDIBLE].

P2 Yes, they’ve been notified there’s an interested and affected party…

P3 …they have, and the…

P2 …They’re getting involved, because I think there is an overlapping of

where the tailing dams and systems…

P3 …yes, where…


P3 …We have spoken to them, and they’ve actually given us some

information on the [NAME] mine. And the person that is involved in

that application was actually the junior geologist that had witnessed the

flood event and all of those. So, but I think that’s one thing, it’s a very

valid point that we are making, and I think the coping report doesn’t

immutate [?] that cumulative impact that needs to be considered. I’m

not exactly sure how, but the fact that, that proposal is there probably

rings that bell and some sort of…

F …Okay, but the…

P3 …operation needs to [INAUDIBLE]…

F … the [INAUDIBLE] that needs to be captured then, is just looking at

the…at what the implications would be, what is it, Gotti?...

P3 …Gar..Garsoni[?]…

F …Garsoni [?] is operational, what will we…

[OVER TALKING]

P3 …[INAUDIBLE][OVERTALKING] which properties they’ve actually

applied?...

F …No…

P3 …they did indicate that they were going to Plot 6…

P? …[INAUDIBLE] Allpro [?] mine…

45

P3 …and Sylvania is actually the owner of the purpose drive, and these

people have apparently got the right, or in the process of a right to

cross there from Sylvania’s [INAUDIBLE]. The shoe’s now on the other

foot there, so…

P2 So they have the right, successfully, and they are investigating the

number of all bodies…

P3 …I think that, the important thing is that doesn’t let…

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] overspent [INAUDIBLE] our financial standing

[INAUDIBLE]…

P3 Look, it’s very difficult, because we’re now sitting with a mine that’s

gone, mostly through prospecting applications, undertaken basic mine

planning, and is undertaking the environmental impact assessment and

starting with basic engineering and now you have a mine, another

potential mine, that only in the prospecting phase, so it would be

[INAUDIBLE] considerations, but it’s…

F You’d be pretty limited in terms of what you can actually do…

P2 … No, we will definitely speak to them…

P3 … No, I just think that it’s important that they also try to [INAUDIBLE]

[OVER TALKING]…

P2 …No, they are…

P3 …[INAUDIBLE] it’s impossible that you could impinge [OR infringe] on

them to also…

P2 … Can I make the following suggestions, sorry, my mouth’s gone dry

again, that they come to… That we invite them into the next forum?

P3 That’s what my actually, what I wanted to ask, because they’ve also

come the same as Sylvania and saying, they’re different, and they want

to engage the community, and they’re good, and they’re not going to

[INAUDIBLE]…

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] look at the time…

P2 No, I just told them that this is a very complicated piece of mother…of

earth.

P5 Now, what the impact got both mines on that area? That’s the

problem…

46

P2 …[INAUDIBLE] an important question that you’re asking, and that’s

why if you read through all the problematic statements, it’s may also

[INAUDIBLE] in there. It does state that the cumulative impact needs

to be considered, but exactly how, I’m not sure, because they are in

prospecting. The [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F They have a long way, they’ve got a long way to go before they define

exactly how they’re going to mine…

P4 …[INAUDIBLE] starting new studies on the mines starting up, ‘cause if

both mines are ready, that will have a complete impact on the whole

area…

P3 …I agree, but we don’t yet know. We may have a reasonable suspicion

that there may be an overlap…

P1 …Why don’t you go model it, let’s model it [LAUGHTER]…

P3 Can I have a holiday first, we know what’s going to happen next, the

next thing we’re going to hear is that Sylvania and this other company

are in a joint venture.

P1 …ja..

P3 …that’s what [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

P1 …and [INAUDIBLE] chrome and [INAUDIBLE]…

P5 …I’m look, I’ve got lot of skepticism about, earlier on you mentioned

that smelter…

P3 …yes…

P4 …Now we are in discussion with Klipje [?], and they’re saying that it’s

not good for them to put up a smelter for them. And it got a real good

platinum mine what…Now my question is, why you putting a smelter up

here, because Polokwane’s smelter and the other stuff is going to

Rustenburg, and they’re closing down in Rustenburg mine. They’re

[INAUDIBLE] it…

P3 …from the top… this may take a few minutes, but can I answer? If you

need to close [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …But there’s a simple, a very simple answer Theo, so please don’t

open another…

P3 …slide?...

F …no…

47

P3 …I just have to show the location, and where it is, because, I think, I’ll

try and give a five minute answer, and then we can discuss it

afterwards…

F … You don’t even have five minutes, Theo…

P2 …got one minute to do it, really…

P5 Okay, look, the smelter uses a different technology then what Anglo

and Company uses, they are using a reservatitive [?] furnace to burn

their [BACKGROUND TALKING] the sulphide [?] ore in a very clumsy

way, the technology that’s proposed here was developed in South

Africa by Namtec. It’s called the Conroad [?] process, nobody in this

country was interested in it, they eventually sold the licence to an

Australian company that saw the nerve [?]. That means, one Conroad

smelter that was put up by another junior [?] Jubilee Tracker, it

operates successfully, it’s environmentally, significantly more benign

than the other stuff, so, it can work, it’s been demonstrated, it can

utilise the sulfur dioxide that is normally emitted to produce sulfuric

acid, and not only that, this company is proposing to add significant

value to the metals through metal [INAUDIBLE] recovery…

F …My understanding, Theo, and I thought this was the critical part, is

that the…in the absence of a shaft that a mine is not viable. I mean, if

you were just to take it to the point of concentrate, then it would…

P3 …I can’t answer that question [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …No, remember the…

P3 …Now the actual thing, what it’s about is not exactly that, what we

want to know, and what we’re concerned about is that, this other mine

that claims they could be the richest mine in the world, platinum mine in

the world, that we all [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F Which one is that, thing of?

P3 [NAME]


F …okay…

P3 They don’t have a smelter, and they say they’re going to use the

smelters in that area…

P1 …In that area…

F Does that mean they’re going to be using this?

48

P3 That’s what we want to know, are they going to bring it all here, from

alternative mines…

F …ja…

P3 …and what confirms that even more, is that, that’s going to mean that

other Conroad Smelter where they are, Sylvania and Snapsuit [?]

[NAME], which is the company [INAUDIBLE] is just the mines…what

the mine’s for. Their holding company, a company that’s in

Haenertsburg [?], we call Islander. Sylvania and Islander are now in

Aquarius, which is linked to Jubilee. Are…at [NAME] they smelt at

another place, they’ve got a joint venture. So, what is going to happen,

we want to know, the mine must be able to tell us, what would really

happen. Are they going to now, from this richest mine in the world, and

other mines, going to now transport all gas [?] and take it to here?

P2 Can I rephrase that question? And that is essentially, will this smelter

serve these two pits, only, or will it be used to [INAUDIBLE]? That’s

what [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …Ja, [INAUDIBLE] that’s good…

P2 …and…

P1 …the tailings from, because it’s such an intricate process, the tailings

from Ga-Rankuwa and yada, yada, yada…

P2 …[INAUDIBLE] [OVER TALKING]…

P3 …The thing is, the tailings come from the concentrator where they float

off the very, very…

P1 …I’m talking about other…

F …other tailings…

P1 …other tailings…

P3 Good, and what they will do, and that’s what Sylvania [INAUDIBLE],

does, is they treat tailings, they re-mull it and float it…

P1 …I know that, that why I’m asking the question…

P3 …but the tailings…

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] I want to know about the [INAUDIBLE]…

P3 …the tailings are left behind, to the extent that we can’t [INAUDIBLE] it,

but concentrators transport it…

49

P2 Are they going to do this from other mines?

P3 I cannot answer you that question, and that’s why I asked, can we

rephrase this question specifically. Will this serve, this one…Will this

constant lit smelter only serve these pits, or will it be standard. I can tell

you…

P2 Just, sorry, just on that point, on that specific point, we’re told by… that

Anglo, the whole Anglo group, which is probably ten times bigger than

the mine, the Magalakwena [?] mine which is in our area, only that one

mine, has ten times bigger operation than this…

P3 …correct…

P2 …and the whole Anglo Group only had three smelters, of which only

two are operational…

P3 …correct…

P2 …so why must such a small mine, put up a smelter and a…

F Yip, keep going.

P10 [INAUDIBLE] I think we will not end this debate, because now we’re

opening another discussion. In the sense that I think we should just

say, he doesn’t know, if he doesn’t know what plans Sylvania have, in

terms of providing smelter services to other mines, or you should just

say, I’m going to refer this matter to Sylvania for their [INAUDIBLE]…

F …Sylvania, that’s exactly right, so let’s…

P10 …we can’t go on debating this if we are uncertain about other

[INAUDIBLE] and issues Sylvania would have to [INAUDIBLE] [OVER

TALKING]…

F …So there’s a simple question, and there’s a simple answer, we know

what…

P1 …But we’ve asked this question before, so we wanted to go

[INAUDIBLE] the mines for water, so that they can create a smelter to

serve the community and pour all that effluent all over, it’s not going to

happen, but now we asked this question…

P3 …but there was, there…

P6 …[INAUDIBLE] we have no circular [?] your concern [INAUDIBLE] the

reason for that is a smelter for such a small mine, as for both. We

heard most of that, we need reasons why they’ll have a smelter there,

because there are allegations of it being used by other mines…

50

F …It’s not an allegation, it’s just, really, they want to understand whether

that’s an option…

6 …When I say, an allegation, because the guys, they have a little bit of

information, and they do not know about…

F …Sure…

P6 So, I’m learning, when I say allegations, it’s not in a negative manner,

but let’s just get [INAUDIBLE] [OVERTALKING]…

F …No, let them [INAUDIBLE]…

P6 …[INAUDIBLE] let’s address it…

F …cool…

P3 …okay…

P6 …and, I think on that one, let’s not discuss [INAUDIBLE] need clarity

from Sylvania, and move forward.

F Ja, we’ll get there. Can I just point out’ Victor [?], and I think this is very

important, but, in future, that’s what you do, you acknowledge me as

the facilitator, and you make sure that…So thank you for setting that

good example, I doubt it will be remembered in this group, ‘cause it

doesn’t really make a [INAUDIBLE] [LAUGHTER]. We can only try.

P2 I just want to…

F …very quickly…

P2 …however big the answers that were given to that [INAUDIBLE], firstly,

it is the Conroad process, it can operate on a much smaller scale than

the old technology that Anglo is operating on. As a total aside [?] I’ve

been informed that Anglo is now also looking at this. However, keep in

mind that Sylvania indicated that they would also like to have most of

this mobile, so, I will confirm with them…Tina [?] can you make the

following May [?]…now back to what I’ve been assisting with, that we

get a statement from Sylvania as to whether this is to serve these two

pits, only, and, if not, to what extent expansion is anticipated. Because

if there’s anticipation for expansion, then this impact assessment

[INAUDIBLE] [BACKGROUND NOISE] there. Did that cover it

adequately?

F I think [INAUDIBLE] but it’s captured and it must still be…

P2 …then, secondly, Theo, now it’s the differences between the Conroad

and the traditional process.

51

F Okay.

P10 I wanted to come back on a vote, and a difference to also to

[INAUDIBLE] on [INAUDIBLE]…

F …Yes. Cool thank you, folks, have we done enough?…

P2 …ja…

F …I know it’s been a long day, we got us dispersed around the country

side, but, if you’re happy that we conclude at this point then I’d like to

suggest that we do that. Thank you, to you all for your participation, as

always. The homework that you do, is always very much appreciated. I

know that there are frustrations…


F …okay…

P1 …[INAUDIBLE] cough it up [?]…

F …Ja, we need to get the hell out of here before she gets a second wind

is all I’m saying…

[LAUGHTER]

F …okay, so…

P3 …[INAUDIBLE] rest…

F …alright, but we’ll see you again soon, particularly around this issue of

sourcing the information…

P2 …Can we talk dates, Sean, because your diary is also a year

involved…

F …okay…

P2 …is it possible, can we quickly look at it? Unfortunately, I

[INAUDIBLE]…

F …ja, I also, I… there’s too much uncertainty in a couple of theories, but

the principle will be to try and set that meeting up within the next two

weeks. That’s, in principle, what we’re looking at. Okay, folks, thanks

very much again. I always…I don’t know where Ting [?] is and his wife

[INAUDIBLE]…


[LAUGHTER]

Appendix 4.11.3 Public Participation Emails

Date post:	24-Sep-2020
Category:	Documents
Upload:	others
View:	8 times
Download:	0 times

Fiona Preston-Whyte · 1 Fiona Preston-Whyte From: Fiona Preston-Whyte Sent: 17 December 2013 08:41...

Documents