Herbalists Without Borders · So, it's like you could be part of Herbalists Without Borders in many...

https://www.eatweeds.co.uk/ep16-herbalists-without-borders

Plants & People Podcast Episode 16 Herbalists Without Borders

Interviewed by Robin Harford

Listen to the episode here https://www.eatweeds.co.uk/ep16-herbalists-without-borders

Robin Harford: This is Robin Harford from eatweeds.co.uk and foragingcourses.com. I'm up here in Bristol with the Herbalists Without Borders, or at least a portion of them, most probably, 2%, I would think, maybe five. So, folks, could you just introduce yourselves?

Becs Griffiths: I'm Becs Griffiths.

Annwen Jones: And I'm Annwen Jones.

Robin Harford: And-

Becs Griffiths: And we're both herbalists. We run Rhizome Community Herbal Clinic in Bristol. We run a clinic, and do a lot of teaching together, and we are part of setting up Herbalists Without Borders, Bristol.

Robin Harford: Okay, so, just to get everyone in the flow, what's your background? Are you trained or are you just community herbalists with no official training?

Annwen Jones: We're both medical herbalists. We did our training in London. And then, since qualifying, Becs set up the clinic in Bristol and then I came and joined her when I finished my training. So, we are trained, but we've been working in the field of environmental politics, and health justice, and been interested in all those kind of topics for years and years, and that's how we originally met.

Robin Harford: And you're trained?

Becs Griffiths: Well, I'm a medical herbalist too. And I set up ... Maybe I qualified eight years ago. I went to work in New Orleans, for a year, at Common Ground

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Health Clinic, which is, probably, the only primary health clinic there is that was combining the ideas of why people are sick and what medicine is appropriate alongside giving herbs and medication. I was already politicised before I went there, but it was a real introduction into how it can actually happen and work.

Robin Harford: Great, because I think I met you both at the first Radical Herbalism Gathering, where I was jumping for joy because you were asking questions that went beyond making a face pack and getting to some, really, nitty, gritty stuff. And, that's not always the case within the herbal community, as far as what I know about it.

So, could you talk more about community herbalism and social justice? How does herbal medicine fit within social and political context?

Annwen Jones: I think those were the questions that we had always asked, from when we were working where were political activists and doing things in the environmental political world, and then when we came to herbal medicine we, obviously, brought some of those ideas of social and environmental justice with us to herbal medicine. And we've always questioned that idea of why are people ill? And it's not just as simple as things people need to do, as individuals, for their own health, but things that people need to do, society wide, to improve everybody's health.

For example, it's much harder to have optimal health, or look after yourselves, when people are in poverty, or when people have bad housing, live in damp conditions. As Becs was saying, you're looking at the reasons why people are ill and what's the main things that are impacting a particular community, that's got to come as important to that community as which plants that they can use to improve their health.

Becs Griffiths: I think it's just connecting everything together, thinking about the sustainability of medicine and the sustainability of industrial medicine, and how herbal medicine can, possibly, if done well, create a sustainable alternative or, at least, alongside conventional medicine. Connecting cultural appropriation and colonialism and land grabbing that's going on around the world, and trying to think about how we can stand in solidarity with people who are fighting land struggles. Connecting thinking about self-care and this individualised way that we think about health. Quite often, when people are sick, they start to look at themselves and like, "What have I done?" Looking wider at what's going


on in society, what's going on in our culture that could be causing all this ill health?

For me, a really stark statistic is when we looked at life expectancy in Bristol and there's 10 years between the richest area in Bristol, which Clifton, to one of the poorest areas of Bristol, Hartcliffe. There's 10 years difference in life expectancy-

Robin Harford: Wow.

Becs Griffiths: ... Which really shows-

Robin Harford: Wow, that's ... Well, that's not amazing, that's frightening.

Annwen Jones: That's horrifying.

Becs Griffiths: In a UK city, for 10 years, and that will be because of housing conditions, access to food, education about how to look after yourself, ability to look after yourself. So, they're the issues that we really wanna talk about, rather than just like, "Oh yeah, here's echinacea for a cold."

We do love the chemical side. We do love using herbs to help with longterm conditions and acute herbal medicine, but we also want to talk about the root causes of ill health, which is health inequalities and the root causes of the ill health of the world, our environment, the ecology.

Robin Harford: Sure.

Annwen Jones: I think it's quite essential, really, as well, when were building relationships with plants and with the natural world, and when were teaching other people and bringing other people to those relationship, that those relationships then have to be in the wider context. And it's combining ... We've always had a passion for social politics and a passion for plants and medicine, and bring those two together just seemed natural to us, really. And also, as Becs said about the sustainability of medicine, that has to come in with any relationship that people form with plants.

Becs Griffiths: And alongside that is self-care, because we're used to being in political environments where it's all about the politics and not about the self-care, which is why I love herbal medicine, because I think it is the people's medicine. It's so ... If you know how to identify your local herbs, then they're free, and you can go out and harvest them and make medicines, and there can be nothing more accessible than herbal medicine like that.


And this idea of looking after yourself. That's a revolutionary idea. We don't have to be martyrs to the cause. It's really important to know how to look after yourself. So, putting these two things together is, I think, one of the unique experiences that we've had organising the Radical Herb Gathering, and something that we want to bring into everything that we do.

And that's what the Radical Herb Gathering, when we first organised it five years ago, we really, literally, had no idea what the response would be. We thought, maybe, it would be 10 of us in a field and-

Annwen Jones: We didn't think anyone would come.

Becs Griffiths: Especially during our herbal training, there was kind of a silence around talking about health inequities and why people are sick. And when I did try to talk about it, I really didn't get much response from people. So, when I first ... Well, I knew Annwen before, and then first met other herbalists interested, who came together to organise it, we really had no idea. And very quickly, we got sold out, 150 people. And now, the fifth year has been 350 people-

Robin Harford: Wow.

Becs Griffiths: ... Big waiting list. There's one in Ireland next year, there was one in Scotland last year. There's been one in Germany last year. So, it's kind of spreading this idea of talking about health.

It should ... It's a normal thing to talk about why people are sick. Doctors talk about it. There's loads of different organisations that talk about why people are sick and health inequalities with medicine. It's just had not really come to the herbal medicine world in this country.

Annwen Jones: I think, maybe because when people look at alternative medicine, a lot of it comes from this idea of self-help and self-care, which is something that we're really interested in, but that can become very individualised, very concerned with your own optimal health and which particular herbs, or plants, or super foods, or lifestyle changes that you can do to improve your health. Again, it's a symptom of that individualised culture. And, I think, so many herbalists that have come to these gatherings and people interested in herbal medicine, don't have that perspective and they do see those wider community links. But, for some reason, we'd never got


together and had those conversations in public. So, it was a real amazing revelation to us that so many people wanted to have that conversation.

Becs Griffiths: And, I also think it sparked lots of people to think of those things that hadn't before-

Robin Harford: Well-

Becs Griffiths: ... And lots of projects to come about that didn't exist before.

Robin Harford: I think the fact that there's other micro-Rad gatherings going on, that speaks volumes.

Annwen Jones: Yeah.

Becs Griffiths: The street's organising.

Robin Harford: Grassroots, and therefore, that's a-

Becs Griffiths: Yeah.

Robin Harford: ... Craving for a need that people ...

Annwen Jones: Yeah, people being inspired by other people's ideas, and taking that inspiration back to their communities and doing something similar that's been inspired by that. And we've been really inspired by hearing about other projects that people have set up as a result of the coming together at the Radical Herb Gathering.

Robin Harford: So, how does ... Do you find ... I suppose we'll get onto it. We're gonna talk for hours, aren't we? I can tell. It's one of these ones ... Often, things start and, often times, certain key people, even if they don't take a leadership road, necessarily, are, kind of, the prime movers within a community organisation. Do you find momentum dies? How is momentum maintained?

Annwen Jones: I think it's important to keep inspiring others so that you keep getting new people involved, and staying open as groups or as ideas, which has been important in the Herbalists Without Borders group.

Becs Griffiths: I think some of the workshops we've had showcasing different projects around the UK, and a lot of those are really grassroots, really not run by medical herbalists, so they're very accessible, and I think that's been a


momentum. People are thinking ... People are seeing, like, "Oh, I can do this. This isn't like, I don't need this qualification, I don't need all this knowledge, necessarily. I can start something really simple."

And that's like ... Every year we try to have this showcasing of community projects to inspire people.

Annwen Jones: We're in it for the longterm, so momentum will always be up and down, but we keep our momentum up, partly, by having an amazing collective. We really enjoy it, and keep being inspired by it, and then that allows us to keep on putting on the gathering, which then helps other people to keep inspiring. Then they go off, back to their places, and it steamrolls.

But, I think, if you stop enjoying what you do, then the momentum goes.

Robin Harford: Yeah, sure.

Becs Griffiths: Especially in this culture, there's a lot of emphasis on doing, and doing creates worth and self-worth. I have some Greek friends who always taught me ... Who laughed at us for this. And they didn't think doing gave you worth, and it was really good for me to have these people around me because that made me stop.

So, in my 20s, I ran like crazy, and I did feel burnt out. So, I think its really important to, again, about self-care-

Robin Harford: Yeah.

Becs Griffiths: ... And know you're in it for the long run-


Becs Griffiths: ... The long haul.

Annwen Jones: And, I guess, as herbalists, that's what we're trying to teach others, so we're also trying our best to take a leaf out our own book. But, it's something I see herbalists doing as well, working themselves too hard and not always taking the medicines that they advise other people.

Robin Harford: Herbalists Without Borders, you work with and help who?

Becs Griffiths: Our aim is to give free herbal medicine to any migrant who would like it. So, we don't differentiate, necessarily, between an asylum seeker, failed


asylum seeker, refugee, migrant. So, that's was kind of our original aim, was to give free herbal medicine, and-

Annwen Jones: To those most in need. That's what we're trying to identify in that process. It's not, necessarily, what category people are in, but who needs us.

Robin Harford: So, can they not get it off the state?

Becs Griffiths: Anyone can access the [GP or ANE 00:12:58], regardless of their legal status. They're finding that elite ... So, if you are an asylum seeker within the system, you can access primary and secondary health care.

Robin Harford: So, what's primary?

Becs Griffiths: So, primary health care is the GP or ANE.

Robin Harford: Right.

Becs Griffiths: Secondary is any referrals-

Robin Harford: Okay.

Becs Griffiths: ... Beyond that. So-

Annwen Jones: So, like an operation, or a hospital visit-


Annwen Jones: ... Or a consultant.

Becs Griffiths: So, if you're in the system, you are able to access primary, secondary health care. If you're a failed asylum seeker, or complete illegal and not going through the asylum process, then you have access to a doctor, a GP, or ANE, but no secondary healthcare.


Becs Griffiths: So, say, if you found a lump in your breast, you could go to the hospital, they tell you you have a lump in your breast, but you wouldn't be referred to get a mammogram or any secondary care. So, they're finding that, at least a fifth of asylum seekers are being refused treatment, when they should actually have treatment. So, there's so much confusion


around who can access and who can't access health care. And, I think, this is probably deliberate, as well.

The immigration act came in last year, which was the legal framework for who can and can't ... Well, for lots of things, but in part of it is who can and can't access healthcare, and people are confused, which is why a fifth of people have been refused treatment. They found that about 11% of people don't access treatment because they're scared of being arrested.

There's two organisations that do a lot of work around this called Doctors of The World and Docs, Not Cops.

Annwen Jones: The Docs, Not Cops is in response to the fact that lost of GP surgeries and health care providers were being asked to assess people's immigration status, and ask for passports, and ID, and papers of people when they accessed healthcare. So, a lot of doctors are outraged and not wanting to be put in that position, because it's confusing for the provider to know who they can and can't treat, and it's really confusing for people to know whether it's safe for them to go and see a doctor.

Robin Harford: It sounds like a doctor's becoming an immigration officer.

Becs Griffiths: Well, they're gonna-

Annwen Jones: Hence, the name, Docs, Not Cops.


Becs Griffiths: And a lot of doctors are refusing to do that. A lot of midwives are refusing to do that. And, actually, in Bristol, there's one of the migrant support projects, Bristol Refugee Rights, has a day, on December the 9th, where they're having a workshop about medical justice, and lots of professionals are coming to talk about how they're trying to push back the legislation and not do what the government's asking. So, it's not like the doctors have take that on, at all, which is good.

So, the people can access primary health care, but we are herbalists, so we believe in the power of herbal medicine. And it's not just like, oh, they can get medication. Some people can get medication and drugs, but we're saying we think herbal medicine's beyond even just treating illnesses. The medicines we give out are things like herbal chest syrups and chest rubs, but also we have one particularly around well-being,


helping people deal with stress without medicating but enhancing their ability to withstand stress and build resilience.

So, we think herbal medicine can run alongside conventional medicine. It's not an either or-

Robin Harford: No, sure.

Becs Griffiths: ... And it's not-


Becs Griffiths: ... Thinking that conventional medicine's the only answer. Particularly, what we see and what we're being asked to support, which is like trauma, sleep problems-


Becs Griffiths: ... And digestive problems and, actually, conventional medicine's not got-

Annwen Jones: Not got a great deal to offer in those areas.

Robin Harford: No.

Annwen Jones: But we've come into that contact, as herbalists, where health care ... There are people who are, sometimes, marginalised from health care, but they're certainly not the kind of people who would be able to, normally, access something like a herbalist. And, ideally, we would be working alongside all the medical services, but we're also coming in knowing that those medical services are under threat, under funded. They're also ... It's not clear whether, in the long term, people in the asylum process will have as easy an access to all of that as they do now.

Becs Griffiths: And that even when they do, they are legally allowed to have access, a fifth of them are being refused treatment anyway. A lot of asylum seekers, and I don't know the percentage, but a lot of asylum seekers are wrongly charged after they have treatment.

I was just talking to a friend of mine who works at a migrant support project. He was saying that this happens a lo with pregnant women. 'Cause all pregnant women are allowed access to a midwife, but people who have failed asylum status have been charged afterwards, which can


be really problematic and which will stop people accessing emergency health care, really.


So, why asylum seekers? Why asylum seekers over anyone else? Why give them preferential treatment?

Becs Griffiths: So, we're looking at who are the most vulnerable people in our society.


Becs Griffiths: And, as a human being, I think it's really important that we embrace supporting the vulnerable people in our society. We don't have a society unless we have the capacity to look after the people who are the most vulnerable and the most oppressed, and for us, this is really important. So, there's so many groups we could, and would want to offer free herbal health care. Homeless people, people with mental health problems, we really wanna go into women's refuges, eventually.

Annwen Jones: We have, actually, had a contact with a women's charity who support women who've been trafficked, and that's another group of people we've done some support work with.

Becs Griffiths: So, we chose them because, especially at the time, there were all these people in Calais and Dunkirk, huge bombing in Syria, lots of people fleeing. Most people who leave are fleeing war or destitution. They're fleeing for a better life. So, lots of people we see are from Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, places that have had recent wars and are really vulnerable with very little resources in this country. So, we thought about starting with asylum seekers, but who knows where this could go. We have talked about, possibly, in the future, looking at going to homeless projects and looking at going to a women's refuge.

Annwen Jones: There's a project in Dublin, which is set up by a friend of ours, taking herbal medicine out onto the streets to distribute amongst the homeless, and that's something that we've been quite inspired by. It's the Dublin Herb Bike, I think it's called. They go out with a bicycle and with a dispensary that comes out off the bicycle. And those kinds of projects are something that we are very keen on supporting, and, hopefully, we will have the capacity, at some point, to start something similar here.


I remember speaking to one asylum seeker, and I told her that I was from Wales, and she said her only experience of Wales was going to the immigration office in Newport, which has got a really terrible, terrible reputation for being one of the worst places to go to with the least compassionate staff. And I was just so embarrassed. She's like, "Wales, on yeah, that's the bit that doesn't want us."

I was so embarrassed and so upset, and I want to show all those people that we have compassion for them. And when then come destitute and struggling in our cities, that we want to be there and show them a friendly face. And, luckily, we live in a city like Bristol, which has quite a lot of projects where people can go and feel welcomed, but we definitely want to be part of that welcome and that compassion, especially when we live somewhere where our governments are quite complicate-


Annwen Jones: ... In the situation in the world that's causing a lot of these wars, that's causing the situations that people need to flee. Our colonial history means that people have links over here. They only have those because of the way that our governments have acted in the world. So, we want to be the people that will show compassion.


Yeah, good.

Becs Griffiths: Yeah, boarders are really political. Who gets to move where. Money can move anywhere-


Becs Griffiths: ... And rich people can move anywhere, so it's not just about boarders and migration, it's the politics of who and what-


Annwen Jones: Of money and capital.

Robin Harford: And I think, what a lot of [inaudible 00:22:09] might not know, it that the winds are often on the inside, aren't they? It's the trauma-



Annwen Jones: Exactly.

Robin Harford: ... It's the PTSD-

Annwen Jones: Yeah.


Robin Harford: ... It's the chaos-


Robin Harford: ... The internal chaos, that although you might see someone who's very calm walking down the street, who's a refuge, that inside the wounds are raw-


Annwen Jones: We don't know what they've seen.

Robin Harford: ... And seeping, and open, yeah.

Annwen Jones: Yeah.

Becs Griffiths: Which would just continue and exacerbated by our asylum process.

Robin Harford: Absolutely.

Becs Griffiths: Which is really degrading process for people to go through.

Robin Harford: How many migrants, refugees, asylum seekers do you see?

Annwen Jones: Well, we've got two parts to the project. We've got a drop in section, which is ... It's all very new. We're just building this project. But, since the summer of this year, we've been visiting two different migrant projects, so, twice a month we will go to a different hospitality project and set up a stall, and that's out drop in sessions, where people will just come up to the stall and they'll be able to access the different medicine's that we've made, which are quite generic, safe things that we can give out, like over-the-counter kind of things. We've got ointments for sore joints, lots of people have got various different aches and pains. We've got things to help build people's immunity, cough syrups, chest rubs and-


Becs Griffiths: Sleepy tea-

Annwen Jones: ... Stress, yeah.

Becs Griffiths: ... Digestive tea, and we're just continuously expanding this in response to what we're being asked for.

Annwen Jones: That's our first point of call of meeting people. And then there's a smaller group of us ... So, that's quite a big group of volunteers who are doing that, and then we've got a smaller group of us who are clinical herbalists who then will be able to take people, as referrals, into our clinics. So, if we encounter somebody in one of those projects who needs more help, then, at the moment, we're able to take a smaller number of people to see us one-to-one, clinically.

At the moment, Becs and I support two people at a time. And we have that as a, kind of, rolling process. Once we've supported somebody for a little while, then we can take on somebody new again.

Robin Harford: And there are other herbalists within Bristol-

Annwen Jones: Yeah.

Robin Harford: ... Who are seeing other-

Annwen Jones: Yeah.

Becs Griffiths: We're ... Everyone's starting, so it's-


Becs Griffiths: ... Again, as Annwen said-

Annwen Jones: It's six of us.

Becs Griffiths: So, we started only over a year ago. And we started, very slowly, building up from the bottom, building a good foundation so we didn't go way ahead of ourselves with too much momentum and not enough people. So, we just me all last winter and made medicines together. And then, once we ... And we, kind of, discussed how we'd sort out the carts and how we'd organise it. And this just took some time. We got to know each other. We had different people ... Everyone's, obviously, a volunteer, but


different people came and we started to get a solid group, and then we approached the projects once we knew what we could offer.

So, we approached two, well, we approached a few projects, and we decided to start with two. And, hopefully, we'll expand, because there's a particular women's project that we'd like to go to as well. But we visit Bristol Hospitality Network, which is a network of people who have spare rooms, who offer them, long term, to asylum seekers. So, they have a drop in, and we visit that once a month. And then there's another organisation called Borderlands, which we also ... Just a, kind of, support, drop in ... And we visit them once a month.

Annwen Jones: And they have other health providers that come. They have an osteopath that comes and visits there. There's a GP from a GP service in Bristol that's open, particularly, to asylum seekers. So, it feels like ... It's nice to fit in as part of that, as herbalists and bringing herbal medicine to that environment.

Becs Griffiths: So, over the last few months, we've been visiting those projects, and from that we've been getting referrals to see people in our private clinic.

Robin Harford: So, what happens when someone of a Muslim faith ... They don't drink alcohol, do they, Muslim people?

Annwen Jones: No.

Robin Harford: And I don't drink alcohol, and I have to day, it's one of my beefs that there's not enough discussion about how do we make medicines without-

Annwen Jones: Yeah.

Robin Harford: .. Alcohol?

Annwen Jones: And it's difficult. It was a challenge for us initially, because we use a lot of tinctures in our clinics, for lots of reasons, 'cause they're very convenient medicines, they're very strong medicines that have a very long shelf life. They're quite easy to work with, and that's what we have trained with using. But, it's not the only thing we use and we have just had to expand our emphasis a little bit, and use the other medicines, that are not alcohol based, that we have always used, but just expand our range, really.


Becs Griffiths: So, actually, when we go in with a cart, we don't have any tinctures or alcohol based medicine. We have two syrups and a vinegar, a fire cider vinegar, which we ... Is for immunity. And then, were gonna expand more in the vinegars, and were gonna expand more in glycerates. Not everyone is Muslim that we see. Some people don't, actually, mind about tinctures. We're thinking we might, actually, bring in tinctures based medicines into the projects.

Robin Harford: Yeah, 'cause it's an assumption, isn't it? That, oh-

Annwen Jones: Yeah, yeah.

Robin Harford: ... You talk asylum seekers, they must all be Muslims. No.


Annwen Jones: Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Becs Griffiths: And also, people can differentiate between whether the alcohol is made for recreational use or medicinal use and-

Robin Harford: Yeah, that's different rules, aren't they?


Annwen Jones: Yeah.

Becs Griffiths: So, some Muslims we've treated within our private clinics are happy to make the differentiation, and some Muslims that we've seen aren't.


Becs Griffiths: So, it's, again, not making the assumption.


Becs Griffiths: But we are going to do a lot more vinegars, a lot more oxymels, and a lot more glycerates, because-

Robin Harford: So, explain to people who don't know, an oxymel-

Becs Griffiths: Is just a combination of honey and vinegar, so it makes it more palatable.



Becs Griffiths: And he syrups, we are going to do less syrups, I think, because were aware that quite a lot of people, or there is a high percentage of people with diabetes-

Robin Harford: Right.

Becs Griffiths: ... We want to not have syrups are our only-


Becs Griffiths: ... Only medicine.

Annwen Jones: Yeah. Yeah, and giving out a lot of sugar-


Annwen Jones: ... Sometimes does feel a bit counterintuitive, especially when people are struggling with eating healthily and eating well.


Annwen Jones: So, when I give cough syrups to people, usually, in my clinic, it's in the context of the rest of their diet being good.

So, we're experimenting with different things to use. We've been using glycerine, which is something that tastes sweet but doesn't affect people's blood sugar in the same way.

Robin Harford: That's vegetarian, isn't it? It's in vegetables.

Annwen Jones: It is vegetarian, yeah. It comes from ... It's the sugar part of a fat molecule, so it's made from vegetable fat, but it is something that is made in a lab with a process, it's not a natural substance. So, it's, again, it has other problems, but, at the moment, I think it's much better for people's health that sugar. So that's something we're expanding into using. But, yeah, we're looking at experimenting.

I've been giving people teas as well, dried herbs, but, again, that's a bit difficult when people don't have secure housing, so they maybe don't have teapots and kettles, and access to hot water. Which we see as something quite easy, but it's not easy for everybody.


Robin Harford: No, sure.

Becs Griffiths: The ease of taking medicine is really important-


Becs Griffiths: ... Because so many people are in precarious situations that aren't long term. So, that's important.

Annwen Jones: I've been giving capsules to some people. Capsules are quite expensive for us to fund, because all our medicines ... All our fundraising is going into things like making the medicines and providing the herbs. We're expanding number of herbs that we're foraging ourselves, that we're getting people to grow for us, and that's fantastic, but we will, still, always have to buy supplies and capsules is a way to eat at those supplies really quickly.

Robin Harford: Yeah, sure.

So, you say funding. So, you've got a fundraiser coming up, haven't you? A crowed funder.

Becs Griffiths: We have.

So, we have been given bits of funding from a few different organisations, which we've, pretty much, nearly finished. So, we've got this crowed funder coming up-

Annwen Jones: So, that would be the second week of November.


Becs Griffiths: ... And we are, instead of the last crowed funder, which is just asking for donations, we're putting up prizes. Different people have offered places on their workshops, on their foraging works. People are donating baskets, soaps, we've got about 40 bars of soap that someone's actually printed Herbalists Without Borders wrapped around it. We're printing flags-

Annwen Jones: It's for handmade soaps.

Becs Griffiths: ... So, lots of different things that you can bid on.


We are also doing the calendar. So, we're making a liner calendar of all the different months will ave a different herb-

Annwen Jones: Beautiful, beautiful prints of the herbs.

Becs Griffiths: ... And they're made by [Imani and Rizanna 00:31:23] from CATO Press, which is local to us. And-

Robin Harford: I had a look at them yesterday. I have to say, I was really-

Annwen Jones: They're gorgeous, aren't they?

Becs Griffiths: They're really good.

Robin Harford: ... talk about, blooming, William Morris and have nothing in your house that's not beautiful or useful. It's, kind of, right up there with it.

Annwen Jones: Yeah, beautiful and useful, that's a good description of it.

Becs Griffiths: And then, with that, on each month, we're going to list all the herbs that you can harvest during that month, and then we'll do an intro of how to harvest herbs, hot to dry them, how to store them, and how to contribute them to Herbalists Without Borders, because we're trying to make this circle of people growing herbs for us, or people harvesting herbs for us, people making medicines together or for us, and then people who come into the clinic and the projects with us.

So, it's like you could be part of Herbalists Without Borders in many different ways. So, this calendar is to encourage people to harvest herbs and to harvest them and-

Annwen Jones: Also, pays some of that back to Herbalists Without Borders by collecting things for us.

Robin Harford: Basically, it's supporting Herbalists Without Borders.

Annwen Jones: Yeah. So, you can support the project just by buying the calendar-


Annwen Jones: ... But then, also, it'll give you the information of what to make for us and when to harvest things, and hopefully we'll get some herbs donated that way to us.


Robin Harford: So, how long is the crowed funder gonna last?

Annwen Jones: It's gonna last for a month.

Robin Harford: Great. Okay. Well, that's really cool.

And where do people find out about all this?

Becs Griffiths: So, we have a website, which is bristolhwb.org. So, the crowd funder will be on there and the calenders and, also, we're putting the prints on bags as well. So, you can access all of that from our website. And the website has everything to do with how to get involved, how to donate any herbs, and more about our background.

Robin Harford: So, there's also goodies being offered. Obviously, it's a crowd funder so, traditionally-

Annwen Jones: Yeah, we've got some good prizes.

Robin Harford: ... There's all these freebies, depending on how much you wanna donate, that you're gonna get. I am, actually, gifting away the equivalent of money, basically, money vouchers, gift vouchers, for whoever wants to donate. So, if you can, actually, go over to the Herbalists Without Borders website, link is in the show notes of this episode. Or, say it again.

Annwen Jones: It's bristolhwb.org

Robin Harford: Great, and you'll be able to get all the information there. Please give your support. It's a really important side of herbal medicine. Like I say, these subjects take plant medicine, herbal medicine, community, beyond the "Let's make pretty face packs with cucumber," or whatever people do with them.

Do asylum seekers, I mean, they come from cultures that, in my kind of perception, they already have herbal medicine traditions. So, do they come knowing loads of stuff about plant medicines, or is that just, purely, a European fantasy from a white man?

Annwen Jones: No, I think it has been our experience that people have been very open to us just appearing in these projects with our herbal medicines, because they're used to using herbs themselves. And, in fact, a lot of the volunteers in the project were saying to us things at the beginning like,


"People might be a little bit suspicious of you to begin with," or, "People might not come over, they might not really understand what you're offering to start with, so it might take a while to win people's trust." But, actually, the first two time we appeared in these projects, we were overrun. We ran out of everything.

Becs Griffiths: Yeah, we gave everything away.

Annwen Jones: Everything just flew off the shelves-

Robin Harford: Wow.

Annwen Jones: ... Because it was familiar to people. And they may not have been familiar-

Robin Harford: Sorry, let me just pick you up there. Flew off the shelves, in my head, says you were billing everyone for them.

Annwen Jones: No, they're free.

Becs Griffiths: Oh.

Annwen Jones: Everything's free.

Robin Harford: So they ... Everything-


Robin Harford: ... to make this really clear-


Robin Harford: ... Everything from Herbalists Without Borders Bristol-

Becs Griffiths: Is free.

Robin Harford: ... Is free-

Annwen Jones: Exactly, yes. Yeah.

Robin Harford: ... to the asylum seekers-



Robin Harford: ... Migrants, refuges.

Becs Griffiths: Yes.

Annwen Jones: Yeah, so, we're giving out these different things, and the take up was enthusiastic-


Annwen Jones: ... Because people were familiar with using herbs. And they might not have known the exact plants that we used, but it's also something we want to do for people as well. As they're coming to somewhere new, we want to familiarise them with the plants that grow here, so we had information about all the different plants that we were using.

Becs Griffiths: So, people would come to us with all sorts of stories of how they used herbs in different countries. And, it was a lot of enthusiasm, lots of stories, and people want to be involved. So, that's, kind of, our future.

Robin Harford: That's really good, because part of my passion ... I'm part of an organisation in the state, called Plants and Healers International, which is where we're networking plants and healers and the plant knowledge, cross-culturally. There's a sharing that goes on.

Again, my head's going off, going "Oh yeah, ask that question." And, in the back of my head, going, "Well, that's a bloody stupid question," because I know that people come from cultures that use a lot of plant medicine, so why would it be alien to them?

Becs Griffiths: Before we went into the projects, we got everyone involved in our project to get some training. We got someone from a local migrant support protect, alongside a second generation Iranian woman, who also works for a migrant support project, and she gave us some insight into the use of herbs in Iran and the use of herbs with Iranian people in the UK. She's saying that, actually, a lot of people in Iran, now, because they don't have access to medicines as much, are becoming more familiar with herbs. So, I think it's a skip generation, like there was in this country in some ways, of people not using plant medicine, and now a revival of people using plant medicine.

And we need to follow up with this, 'cause her grandma, who lives in the UK, has lots of knowledge of plants and plant use. Now, remember her story. The last story that she gave us was her grandma ... It was a


stillbirth, wasn't it? And they put the baby ... The baby was not breathing, and they put the baby in a whole lot of hay, and put all this heat, and massaged the baby, and the baby revived within 30 minutes. But then she said, "You need to meet my grandma, because we have lots more stories to tell you."

So, that's something that we should follow up on. And the exciting thing about this project is that we could meet other people, and they could share their knowledge-


Becs Griffiths: ... And it could be way more like a collaborative-

Annwen Jones: Reciprocal.


Becs Griffiths: Reciprocal in a collaborative project.

Robin Harford: I think that's exciting.

Annwen Jones: We'd love to involve people in making the medicines, and that's definitely where we're going. That's one of our next steps.

Robin Harford: That's empowering, isn't it?


Robin Harford: It's not like, "Oh, come to our nice Bristol herbalists-"

Becs Griffiths: Exactly, yeah.

Robin Harford: ... "And get medicines for free"-

Becs Griffiths: Charity, yeah.

Robin Harford: ... Charity.


Robin Harford: Herbalists Without Borders is a concept that goes way beyond the charity-



Robin Harford: ... Racket.

Annwen Jones: Solidarity, not charity.


Annwen Jones: That's the slogan.

There's a group in London that have been making t-shirts that say that.


Annwen Jones: Solidarity, not charity.

Robin Harford: Yeah, nice.

Becs Griffiths: And that's like ... Finally, when we're a bit more established, next spring and summer, we wanna do herb walks and show people the local, free herbs that they could be harvesting and making their own medicines from. So, that's definitely the plan for next year.

Robin Harford: If there were people in other cities who wanted to set up a similar structure, where would they come to? Just to you?

Annwen Jones: Well, there's a couple of different projects around the UK. There's our project. We've just been explaining the way ours works.


Annwen Jones: There's also a project in Glasgow that works in a slightly different way. So, that would be another blueprint that, people can look at both projects and see which way of working they prefer. The Glasgow clinic has, once a month, they have a physical location, they have a clinic where people come, and they can see a herbalist for a free appointment, and that's how that works. Rather than the project moves around, they have a location that people come to. And they only deal with herbs and teas, so people come along and they can make herbal tea there and then. And they have a garden, so they can pick things, make them into teas, get a consultation if they need a bit more help, or they can just socialise and talk about herbs, and learn about herbs. I think they have


classes, as well, that go on there. And that's slightly different to the way we organise, but we are sharing ideas with them.

So, there's a Herbalist Without Boarders UK website, where you can read about ... You can have a link to our project and the Glasgow project.

Becs Griffiths: So, that's herbalistswithoutboarders.co.uk.

Robin Harford: Yeah, all the links that we've discussed-

Annwen Jones: Yeah.

Robin Harford: ... And organisations that we've discussed-

Annwen Jones: That'll be there, yeah.

Robin Harford: ... Will be in the show notes.

Annwen Jones: The other project is herbalists going out to Calais and Dunkirk to take medicines out to people there in the refuge camps. And the way that you can get involved with those projects, apart from actually going out there, is that they're asking groups, around the UK, to make medicines to their recipes so that they can then take those medicines away with them.

So, there's a couple of different things that you could do, lots of different ways you could get involved.

Becs Griffiths: And we are organising ... The Radical Herb Gathering's having a new form, a different form, next year, where we'll come into the cities and have days in different cities. We're organising one in Bristol, and one of the workshops will be Herbalists Without Borders, and how to set up your own Herbalists Without Borders projects. So, that would be sometime next May or June.

Robin Harford: Excellent. Excellent.

Well, it's been a real pleasure getting you folks on, 'cause it's been a while. And, like I said at the beginning, when we [inaudible 00:41:36] it was just like way! Finally! Serious stuff.

Becs Griffiths: Yeah, it really-

Robin Harford: With a light heart.


Becs Griffiths: ... It really-

Annwen Jones: Sparked a lot of things up. It's been really exciting for us.


Annwen Jones: Thanks for coming to Bristol.

Robin Harford: Yeah, pleasure, pleasure.

Becs Griffiths: Thanks for wanting to know more.

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