~"h8 fn'.1.J c\vin r: ccncU t,iJljlS a r~ply t o aece:::::: t c or 1.)::';(; of' D,ny :i l'l.fur­mi.l.!~,i nn frolfl ~'~ h (~ or'nJ h'istory mcrnc:i.!:' trD,Y! ';"':.i< tv,ct Lee)]!! iny" intcrvi c1N

" .. ·-·!· .. ·~,·t· ) .... j 1- ·' " ( 'J [ ,1-,\ ( .\y, c' : ,.0 ""'- l · (, ';:lflOJ' J.:fl~ C.":·!-Cl · ; .... · · PI(' ~:J-i r;';:"!' -: r' p C')" (,(IUL:. t, : . . ,J(::. \.L ) J :1 ...... d),. .. ..... I •. .J ... .'.1 ~"' J l-, J ,l \O~ 1.. __ .... Jl . .J ............. ,.,._ J .:.... .............. ... , . .A. _

,-'.3 F.;trw'r:.' :1~1'7;'. 'rh.s nlemu:ir is c18s :i.g.i') ;li:,2d (c:ilccl~ one) : _ ................ ---_.--.--_ .......... ... -.--_-..... .--..... _.

Open.

j 'c(J'LJircG

jvieor::Ji;:' t3 d Ci;:i,gn;:cte::~d •. tS Opr:)ll rnJ.yL':; Teel'.:), hyschG'L~J. c:: : 1JP c) ~'-pr ;:',,:; CI; ~.·(J.t :i.on ()f J. rJ e l) l.i {' i c a.t :i on tc t.ho N A 5.1\ Ib :.j to:c i C "11 OJ'f:i (; e" Scl-JoJ ;.".1':3 )lID,Y q1.~Gt.c or cite ;::;ucl'l m:;mo:i. r ~~; \'iit,hout fu r'thc· 2'.' v ::rrr.} ,S::;iC,ll <

• J ,_

•• ~ ~,rl,-... ... ; i:" ..... , •. ~,

r';lCj,~Gj}"' ; :i d ::;~'. L?-n:}tcc1 Penni~,si(1n Eequired t,o Quote 0:.'." Cit·~; [;irc "J ")'-'''1 .' ~.' ()) ..j ( ... -.'\'·r · " ')Mj 1 1': 1 ~ ' ! ' -4- 1 C' c~ "'11""" - -1 r , "1 -' .. (J ")"i l ~ . -' ' .r · ,":, '-! .C' 't~· · , 0)""II..',,·) -r,-;r (3 c · .. .. · .' •. · ·J P .. ·.1 l ,c) L) ... l JI.., "d .. l.Lon, l,n , ~C,"·J_dr [. .. E::" C)" l.g JJ.l, JL,.I\...J .. ooC .c, . " ... ".L·.ooJ

-t,J ~ 0 'r (~q I .~ . i J" C~r!1 c; rl t T':(j () t, 'L,Lt i Il vl.l~ i t/'i..J 8 11 .p C)~ fO :j.;3 ~ i (; r~ j~ T' C) (~ ~ :.~ 11. e j. ;:1 t, 1;. . ),"'-) :;. L. \,,-/';: e p)'iC"'~ ' to 'r..i':-)tjJJL; e,Y' c:; ting; Upon the (h:flt,}: of th .... .; in,JceriT:i,c'v.r(~C; t~j1C: lIJoJ'w:dJ' L ocor:(~~.:) 'Jp'2Jl ,

} )C)·!lr'.:::;~~;iO ; l 'Pcql!:Lcc(! ro.!,' fJ.ccc:.:.;~) w:i 11 h(~ c·bt;:'~ ined :f ru:~: tl>:: jr"t '::l'·'· v: i.v,-,:cI:" or' .f ('(~m '~ h (' !~ 11 \,· ~tor of i..1"1e NJ\~;A ·ij :i.;; t·Jr~i.~:D1 O;:'J'~ . c(-' l)ef\)~ [-:: "''''1 'l: 1"1': YIN , ~. : ., "[·, ro'I") '; I" fl 'J ':'() f) ( "Y'/ l' J' "<~"I (' 1- .("("(' VI'I "1,'.118 'j' l-(~I'."Y,""\<I . '."'," ' (,'." '_:: <," J .. , . .. '," '.:.; '-': ". , •• "" : ," M., _, ) 1 ',..' . . '"') ..... ,J ! ..\., oo)!oo " • _ , ,

\/i 'l L b:, " .. " ;"1':/ pj .!.," "! ]( +.(> or ejti' UPCf ''' he den"], 'o r t '- e · · n ·t-e·~-" v'I ,'I. ,-(: ~ ~t ~:: J, :;:~;'i;' ~Yir' l.,::" '; , ~;; ; ;' :'3 -Op~I~.' ,J ' ,_ ! lJ .. , . ,r,. c,. (, J .. " l . J, -' ..

'l. hj, i .J .~ :" El,n ~n0e J'j . '1 l!i;".'lE;l.:',-(:.:).O]1 , bc ·:;CJ.'):"'C ot.l18r~'li s ·:~ t .);,elG i .:, no f) C:1,( .,t ,'.n C (y,;dll.Ct.:i, Li!. t,; lC interview. 'I'b e rn E';rf)o:i.r fi':v:r i:." ~: (;l(,~;c~cl :',. +.~ oJ " t,;.- ) r", . ·i f '_j ,,\, 1 ::i .~ )· .... -\ 1 .. ' '1· .. ..,· J .. } r<. . ] ' f' -t- ·" v, :' Pt " •. .. ~n 'J , " " d ' ::> J )". l_.,.;..ooL .. oo,~ 1.' !...I.<l l,.,., (L.1J'l11(!) l,l", ._J., (:, · j .] "e OJ. ",(J.C J.J.lT,2:["J ]J;': ,r c~'~~

or for a c::, p c:c:i f:i.ccl ].)(:::1':: ud D .c '~e,(' hi s death.

2.3 E 'f..!hl'l l:\) '/ 1 97~) ,Jll tC:.· 'y· :. ·".\V c(~nt~t~cjC'_: :11 :_:1 1.3 ( ·I'· ·:~\.' . ", :-oj' t}J(~

::; ·~ c l' (;l al' ~r o f i .. >C ./ j r }"o .( C t~" , ' , ~(' r·I\.:' n -:~:.:~; U i'~ )

Bonney: Jvfr. SecrcL!. l y , Jl r(l (;>~1. r a o r dinar ily g rate iul1. 1)c\ay that you. ~,h oulrJ }-;c able 1: 0 i~~ ,,-~ .rne t he i.ir!iC t o r cc.:lll yOG.r a s soci a'"ions wl th th e :" ~ l'\c. /i ( ll.lr i ~lg yC'l ! .\:U 'T Jnr1 He.A d ays whicl'J, c.~ s I nndr;rstand it, cove r a ;)2 r iod of 3 :.r~lu::;t 2,1") yeCil'!, .• and tLcl l at a lH Ll ,:; b i t later ti:'n c, whcn you ;·, ~ : cc.tln c a !'!i!)c i.:,te to D j'. Glellllcll1 and Dr. fJr,:,cJe n, how you c a n.-Je to j1: c1 gc Lh e l'1ACA peopl e ",tho rn ovcd i nto POSll, !On~; of great l: CSP Uil:s:i b iJ.ity j ri ;~/cSA. So, if ;:·ou c are to sta rt in )' nu :r ow n L'.. shi o n and in you r own w ay , sL a r l· ()H VlLth wh '-'!n y ou i'irst 'o c e .:l l1i e aeql:.o.inted witll i\f)\ C A .. .:i t IvflT.

,l;earnan s : I ' d be v c t' y h ? .. ppy to. Ivfy fir s t a e q u a ir: t an ce with the NACA. \ V,1 S b,lC k bcfo " o ? ... ll C

j ' j '1 t b c do.ys vihell I W(~. ::; ~\, stud ent (it Harvard wurki ng 1:!1dcr B i LL Dn . .1::\y ",,/i'.O \'l;'.:3 1.:18 '.1 O!l t he f2 cul1y. In hi s c ourse th at }1 (:! g:t V C i n 3..(! J: r:.( iyl"! ;'::'-li { ... :~_:.' \\' c 11:..aclL! r~"lt~)c r .f'rcq \"~ c nt lI se of ~~i\ C~ /\.

r ep or t s, i~bl e;o o n f,r:p ,:.- :l cr ('H;c i.c ncy , al1ci :-=te;.-odYll Cl.H:i c effici(,n cy , Jift Cl';i[> and s o Oft. ' I I1C l1 '.V;'~J1 I tL~iis;·c rJ' '-'r.l i)\le r t o ~'vHT jn l <) · ~ O ,

I w orke d 'e ll a d e p ;-tl'tlllcn ~ that h ,1.G I ts It co.d D1'. H un s ak e r who ,;..'as, o J em.H s e , a t thCl.t tiJl ~e L1l c Ch a i l' ll'l ,ll1 c f t h e NJ\CA.

B: Vias thi s n"l cc h ;:cric<.,J cnglr,\:c ring o r aCl'Od yn anli c ?

s: !\clu al ly, ~T .. :;2-r·y ~ !:.lf J ::;2..\c~ ·r :;:J.r1 : li:." e(~ jo~)~ .. J~'c Vv' a ~:: t11e Ch <.'_ ~ ~rr:n. Ct.r.l

of th e N ACA <tt1 d L1 C vIas al ~;() llC~td of two dc p ar t rnellh-; at !v·1JT -­I"nC Challi cd el,~ir:ce ):.;:· :Z Ci. l1 d ;:)C l'01l2,lltica l cli~~;in~er i n.'!, . At t!1al: ti n:1c , a Pl' ofess oJ' Sn'!. i t h W.,S sort o f nIl" r~ : ~c \l t lVC uffic [;r i n ae ronauti •. : 'Ll

c ngjn~cr i f':'; zud t oo> ,::1rc; nl:::,. Jot· of the day -· tc- d ay d cci ::; ion s . O f CO\l rs(~ , a t tll r: t tun I.' ; !, c:::(::W Zt S r;urne t<i\CA- spc n so: (; ci w ind t u nn el w o rk t,(J i ng 0 11 i n 0'1 ..... V/I' :c~h t Bothers t\. l lll1e l ~:.lnc. l 1 wns s ort of ;:1\va re o f thai.. )\1 11 , .it n~.,.n·{ \,.' ;, sn ' t· ulJ~il son, (, "l h(;J:c, I guc:::s,. around 1 ) 4 1 ~,- t h a t i.s ; \[t.::l lL .. ·c ,;,\"' -. f:h,l,t J \.\'(: n t ·t <-, ::\'1 r<ACJ'... rn ee l'n g wiLb Dr. Draper . ·1\-1y irDrnc:'~L,-~L~; th 1SS at lvrrr a t tl l2.t li n h~ \vas Ch a rles S Lade . .rJrapc r ".Ptl he "vat:> ; ,1 cLar~~e of all of the instru l~n c nt :.l Lion work i n t b c: , Lie p ;:l l'Ln 1 (;IJi., ~;urfJ ,; ( !i ".\1. '.·\ ! Z'. !~; cL.1s s i.fj c ci (,:'011.1 the s e r vi c es . Oth Cl' par t s h a d to do wi i h i! lVCSt). i: .ltH.:; n of fli gh t i nstr u rne nts and inv e stigat ion of vibrati o n n·!ea~ u r j D.g ir:st.I'uments and cquiprnent that was g ~ i1 e r 2.l1y

c orn rncreially avai J::tbh·, Staik W<l .. S a. n i Cnl b(!l" af, I b e 1i e ve it W 2S

called, 1:11 ':; SubcOlDrn.iltee o n St ab ility a n d C:o;'ltl'cl that r eporte d to the l::tl' g er A e r o d y n anlic c; COTTJnl i U.cc . I was i n'/ i Jc,c: r:1 b i Do c to jOl1~. this conw l:li tLcc for :l s e!3s i on a :lcl ... l e t: s see at ti12t Li Yn\:'; I gU e ss Vl a ltcr Diehl \va s th e: Ch a i l'rn,::>..n of :hc C:)n1 !n ittee ... a nd Doc toldrne ahcrtcl of tim e t.hai I Dli gh t h a v e a c i l <J. nce t o expl ai .r~ a li t tl e bit of the work that w e w e r e doing at },::- I' i ll a u t ornatie stability a nd ,~ ontrol.

B: ·Wh e n you say I:n oe", YO Ll rncan Dr a p e r.

s: Doc D r aper, YCd. 'VYe called hinl D oc, but 1 .:s u es s thats a little arubif,uo;l S h e r e so ) ' :.1 tr y t o c all him Stark. The rnc rnbe :: ship of the

commi~tec, 1 cC1.n 't giv(~ )'" 0\1 :'1J.1 n)(, l'an--:::H. I ' n ) sure they're readily availa:)l(~, but there W2.S C;~ades T il gnc r, J·r., and CCJLlTtland P . PcrLins , and quite 2 • . ~·('·.v a.crodyn~lmic typc8 frOlil Lhe V!est Coast and it was Cjllih~ intcrestin~ fe," J1W to sit then: ~n tlh! Board Hocrn of the aIel N.i\CA and lou!,- at pictHl"CS of th~ '''I,-right BJ' o1:l-le rs and hear a discu ssion of wh<Jt \" a~~ gOiD;: 01', in the .field of s t abi lization a Jd cor:t rol of ai rcraft.

B: Was that up at the Lightner Mansi on on DuJ?ont Circle, (10 you recall? 01', W2.S it clown on 1;' Street?

s: It '.vas clown on F Street. A lot of the ernphasia in L1,osc c1C1.yS \V,\S on other t.il:tfl 1i.1.tcrn.z\1 C'Cjui):-ly\ent, that is, other than gyros and servos. There was rnuch rno"C ,!rnj)ha~;:is on what si~e 2ilc1 ~chape to rnake th e tail and whci-:tcr to ~)U~ spc,ile-rs on ;,nd things of that sort with stabili%ing t.h e a i. rcraIt. In a chrono]ogy I would helve :::o\ll1ted ~he CX,lCt dates, but I think ' t \lii.\S pCJ'h~'?:~ ;1. )'0.O.r or 1l1i1yi1e t, 0 yC!;).~','-; alter this .[jrs t rnc eti!1g th it\. I < \ Lte l~ded \VhCll ,S t·a r \. l' csignccl from t.he Conl1nittec and I was :::L!Okcd to ~; e rvc 011. th e C oTnnlj ttce,

B: So, you rnaini;oincd cO:1.tlnuity, really.

s: I'!"!"l not sure tl1c_L it \i.-as dor:c to achicve continuity of ,son'1.eb ody 2 ... t :NU'.:::' but that's in f::lcf. wh2t !lappencd. It proved to IT le <' very very jnteredin.<:: process to CO~i"(~ to thes c rrtc(!tin~s. J guess they were hcl.u once or twic e ct ,'e2l" <[Jed 1:h(~y \.vercn't a lway s in \··/ashi.ngton. SOfl.1 cLirnes we ' d go to Langley awl e,b!; ':':l've the work there, SO!")H'. 1:inlc:': Lewi s, sOli"lctirncs Arncs. A [~ood part of the meetin g hac: to do w i.th a revj c\\' of the Nll,CA prograrrl and dcpel1.ding upon W]l icC1 Lal~":);: dLory wc were visiting, the SZlnlC neople in the n(!ld of stal)ility' and cont rol would ad'.rise OUl'

Subc olnn'littce on their prugran'l anu we ' d get into E:.cn) (; clr:;Lil on nun:-Jbers of people: an d costs a'ld ,;0 on. I rClnenlbcr )J~il'iicuJ.ar ly the rneeting o\.;t at: IltY)cs \vhcn the X· .. J. S ( \V11aL C2.m.e to be the X ' 15) Wd.S first discussed, It scerf1eu li ke a pretty advenluroU5 proGran"l 1:0 try to fly a plane at Mach 6, lAach 7.

B: Well, was that still this same .sUbCOHUUitt('(;?

s: Still th e sanl"= .• ;-clv,lz,ys the sarnc. This was my one relationship all tl, C way thr ough. Of COUl' se , I was also invit ed t.o various seminars and syrnposillni s and so on and I attended quite a few of thcrn and, of course, in the process of doing t:bis, I ca!nc to kno\'v ql1it;~ a few people at the re search leve l _ ... at th2\Vorking; l evel -- in the NACA, and ended " P with sort of a pers(;r"al correspondence an'd exch··l.;l ge of ideas with theIn.

B: '~rou lc1 you recall som e of th e narnes of tb e p,_'opl e w i th whom you were •.•

/ S: Yes, A be Si1.vcl ' stcin was one , of cours e , at!..Jewis and Harry Goett /

J out: a t Arncs, and 01 cour se I c aine t oknow SrYl'L',.I";) DeFrance too and then 1.'_ d own at Langl e y, I ~!<J. es s Bob Gihutl \vas th e pc::' :'on I knew the best. .

Dr. Sc.;Ctln~'.l1lJ

s: Yes , bec;:tl.l SC of CCJtU,ol' , he W<l~3 b\lilcling up t\'-.: ",Va llops Is l and o p e J'<l.ti Oll., whicl1 w~s thep c;..J lcd P ilotless .r~j J' {, l'a[t and. J u h n S::ack and just a l ot of n::nne s \'/i11 COlllt.! 1.0 J"ilj'1c1 if I l ' caUy put I1"1Y a Uention on i t. Tunl rny TholnpS l) 11 \';)1(;n 1 f il' st w .:: nt dO\-,'l1 thCl"r.! was before t h e day wht; n he w ccS in eli a l' :; e .

B: Yes, he ,vas a gooel l·jr:.bt-.hand i-nan to T-:rc;n}'y Rc j.d i n th ose d ays.

s: Hen r y [{t;icl was in C'l<l.I' ::; e., t11at.s r::r:!1 t. But:. I guess the over~J.l th ought, I might just pnt i ,1 ~)cJ:e. i s 1:h ~ lt cn'phaD ;.[; ',va~ v .~ l'y elefiniteJ y o n iniprovir,g the ;)(: J:()c.1'y·· n~lInic..; of the ~\ij· ;) 1. <'~llC to c r ,)1sidcr i' hl~ external :nc. c, n ~, for s tabi'iz at.iO !l . 'Inert"; wa :~ !1 ' t, ).n the V 'i e'll of our- Sub corn rrllLtc e , enou gh a.1.te ;lt i oll bl~>l~; g i vell to tile l~ "l ore aul::o'-l"-'.L;.c .'jld' of l ll icrn 2. lJ.y controlled a ~; pc cts of ::12 rcr ;liL. Of L.()'_ ll".':(~, a!; L-l~ l\t3 V,!l~nt un vc went Iro !-!-I av; (}tiort ll!.tu !n i ~. ~ ; il( ! ~1 ;). nci it ' N; I. :.3 Cll ' .!:if':.' [Len in, it H1Usl l l<."1_Ve be e n, ' 5"/ 0 r I S G V I (; g c, i.. i. n t r.; ; \. li t U c d i :". C '_~ :-; S '1 o ! 1 : ' ~, I t. h i 11 k I U I.ll.' J. :l S t

rnceting on the passi:)jJ.jty of >->pacc cxpl o r<lt i. oli.. 1 can (l.i. SC lISS t hat w ith you. \ V c wc:re t ryiug to put . .. iL iT.u' n(:d OllL, qui t e a. fe \ \' oj" u s thclt \vcre put.ting i:h it; ... l->rcssure o n the i\l!\CA t.o do rno :' o in the .f:i c l c.1 o f zlvioni cs c,nd cle.::tl-onics. · Not Lo be cOl '1) ,c i.iJivc wi th othCl' l " ho)"' a tar-i cs th'l.t w(~re cl(j;n 2~ tl-!is as an e:ld ulJ.jc; c \i 'Jc, b ut t o h C: COI'llC

cogTl -izan t cnouf!.h Gf \V!12.t \'/<".S ~()illg on ill in ::; i. J"tl ll !<:l-,L!lion, (inel e l ecLr onics so that 1.11;': N/\C/\ could ry,; l ]( C l),,, ttcr u se of son-Ie lit t.hese !-'2clln ique s in the 'Nork the y vJe re doing ill the fi del of ;v:l· onauLic.5 ..

B: W h en y O\1 we r e runn-i. n z the Meteor :n i p,~~iJ c pJ'oject , wa::; there allY special worbng ba.ck and f )l' tb. with i':AC./\ t hilL yell recaJ.l ?

s: Yes , ti lc r c -.V'-l.d , J;'1.1 ' : : [. of ,d .1 .I cnc()uraged ; l and tl) c n I bad C1. loi; of NUPF' od Jr C"!! :1 p co pJ_ e lil'·.(' Hol try GocH at. Arne.:; and a guy nanlcd H ar ri s horn Langh:y.

s: Righ t J Aub rey I-1an~is. The y were the two reople fran! those t wo l abo r<tt ories who were sort. or tn(' contact wi f'n our Subconlmittec so it was v,-~ry appropriate to ~ l.:'~\ l v:iLh the!1~ 2.no vole i ))viU~ d NACA pr o ple to corne to M IT a nd re,ri e ,-\! vV'hat ,'.'c were doin 6 " N J:",C-i:\' -""anted to do nlore in .th e field of rni:3si1(:!~; and, of course, tl1is DaT"~jc;fc~T-S-l~bccm- n'i" i tt e c -­;;as in -t.E~ -li ela -of eoni:l'o:1. -- stabi.JiL;a.t.ion ctl~cll..:untrol -- of miss i les, not thc guidar;c(;. J ~~s t lY!2k.in ~ a rnissil c th a t w(H",lJn ' t osciHatc but \v oulcl fl); Yn -" astl: alght lint· - \V f l C l;- -tl-le .Mete or project \'/ ,;' 5 comin g to a close -at

' 1 MIT, there was sOPJ e t.hcLl ght 3:ivcn, acLuaU.y .F-T;:).!-ry Goe tt sll gg estccl that I we might tran sfer C'. Loi: of ~~CJul prneni ove:!." to the' I,;}'.CA wil.ich t11(~y cou l d I u se fo r further testi:q,> i nc1uding even launchi!l~. At that tirnt3 , -~ heL'r.;

! were !inci ted fa c i.liti,; s out .:~ t \":'aJ..tops Jd anc.l .r O l" ~;c-,lndir~g rockets a n d I thing s o f that sort. The question would conte u p wheLl.,e r t h e NAC A I s h ou ldn ' t have l argeJ. b. cili. ~ ic s for laullching To c \ ,ets for t::! x pc: r i rnr.>ntal

purrCSC!~ 2.ncl th e re \V,: l:e cex·\ cl.:n l ;; quite :'" )lUnlb ',~r of peo p l e a t the n1id'-n ~a n2gClYl~~nt lc":.'l In the: ~':A Cj\ tb a. t \va ncerl to get a L:lrger piece of the <.tc ti.un :Ui(: one oj 1.11 :: '.\lays of doin;~ this won} J 11:1Ve b ee n to lYl ake l..1.::;e of son~, .. ' (,[ the se: :\f.cteor ~ni s~~ iles, Not!ling eve r cary,e of jt in ac t i_~a JitYJ but W~ diu l ook into it. SOl)1C:: v i til e otl)cr Hl.Cnlbcl"3 of th e Sulv::o:·nm i.tt cc rll :izht be of :ntCl'est. D r. F lcL cber '.'.' ho i s no\-v the h eal! of the NASA ,,; a s on 1.11;:\1: Su1.Jcom!nii.:tr.::~ ',: " Ji!() Y] ctcher.

13: l'la s hI'; at Aerojet in those clays?

s: No, t1-11:; v':itS ",\iJ-'l~n hC',"V~.E; C:~t Hu_gl)(~s , e v en beio:c' c he went to A C1'ojet and D al_~,;~1.cy (:j:s who, is ;1(1\'/ .running ~h: ApoJJ.? p rograrn and was C\": J'1 1.+"",)1 ~~t_ .. 7'-uJ't1, i'lj Y IC1'J C;;',!l. was 'J;'I the ~',l ljCC!ilFl)ltl'ee. A g\. Y n2.Tn ecl r~i ll J\;~ ilJi\l:n whu \'.1;2. :3 S'::)l'l 'of ;t mild nlD.l1 Il'W '! th e Cor nell Aero Lab Vi 2.. f; Oli it:. I ::-;;: ... y hr'-~ W3.~; (1 rnad 11.1an bec;\.u~e he \'.'as ve ry eJltll\J~3 i is tic a ncll gu e ss still .~~~ ;:,bO'..l t c" uL u;'l;obile racing, I'Ie v as the g,uy t11a t actually sti.1 .. rtc d V/ ,d:k i. r:r. C](''1 , i.n '.L he:: 11::ci pioneered ~1.t Cc,r n cH j r; ;lpplyjng v;:1. rious {unction;] to !h:.~ «('n~:r(); ~;Cryjc l,:!-.; , !:d,:'n.lsoi. cl s <'nel :iC on ,:11 v 1 meas:,1l'ing the pL'u".~! ! ~ r es~)on~;c cnJ. in i"113.t way dc tcrrnin-i.i1 g th e clynar.:lics of tbe aidr,Hl', c a.s jt fL-~ \'/ thro''-l~~ll the <-dr . . I'd wo rk e d at l",fIT \Vjth t he C on.e 11 Ae)' 0 Lab r .. m L!li S J,n CO),'111e cti on wi th a ll A i]" For cc p r o j e ct so l kne ''1 L iJ,J ".Ie ry \,i,/ ,~ lJ.

J3: Wc~!:;n l t Bcll.f..ircJ:lft b t.~i lding the ai-r:.frarr)(~ for . .•

s: Ye s, f.}, • .:y W(: l ' ,:: ,. l), (~ Jl Aircraft . .. NUT had the, wh'>..t you c ctll, t he:: i cch nic<ll r · p.s~)o JE;ilJ'i].ity foJ" the .kkt..:;or proj ec t, b ';Lt the h a rdwar e jrn plern c ntcdlon \VC 'll 1(' '1.l! it e ;'. nUl1l.bCl' OJ cOll~ra cto !'~:, of whi ch I g uess you'd s<',/ Bell \;" ;. l ,s .J 1(~ F'l.' l~ne , but United Aircraft :ll!:jo h:lcl a ]\l1c l eo r co')t:i: ;tct ,Ce .>' l'"lr-n jc~L '.1>,' 0)".\. \vl11ch '.vas SCp,~~l"ite .lrOn'ltll c T'::cll v,Iork, Th'~n t'\ '! ~";J.'(.: \Vcri~ (' vi.L: '-1, .~'C\V (~lectroili c (~('rn.p,:l.niC's i.n cluding D e n d:i x ::1.nd ), ' J:n n nt su re 1. C?!!. :ldrnc .

'{ " ... CE was vel"! d e '.:}l i. >\ it. weren't t11Cy?

s: ITP:>< T '\vas v c-:::y d f.~ cp ~, n it. Their Federal L a bor at o ry built the Seeker -'. the guicl211cC secke l' . Now sornewll c):e and I can ' t ren'1 crnber exactly the tin'1ing Cll1 ~t, but S OD'lcwhe r e in abou t 1 ~)2, or i 5 3 this Suh ­conllni.l:tec l'lad let l !:, ~]a)r c2efini.lcly di vel"gcnt views on control, stahili7. c,ti on CO!"t .i.' \.l :; and. \A'cHi spJi.t into i.\vo b Ll b corl1nl~ttec!:) for thai: reason.

/ B: And as sort o f el n inter j ection here, jn D1Y researches the thought / h as u e cOlne inc rc ,'.s:~r,g l y .scrollg that the SUoc.ol-:nnitte e ::: y sten1. of the

I olci) NACA was one (. r. th e Tll ost v2.l.uL~bl c <l~pects ('1 t~1c enti re picture, \ \ as f o r eX<lmplc on ), '')1..11' S ub conlrnittee . The b es t inains in that field

'" were br0u~:ht togeth •. : r once or tVv' ic e or three tirrle s a year .

S: I t hi nk it was iI h ::m t fh.:r. c: c ti me say e 2 r .

B: Well, it wa3 sru Tt of Dloncy always -- tT ;tv(!l money, I know that.

s: I think it was a llc.-. lLJ1)' t h i ng . I t l ~ epL the l\f AC A frorn b ecomi n g sort of in s ul a r a ~vJ gu t ~ ~ l.~ ~- r", ;,lw a'y" fr on, tl1.is not: invented here k ind of thin g. The activi.Li(~s ( )f ~ h~:l !J a rti c ula r S UbC01"!ll'!)itt(;!(,; we r e suffic i ently un usu;:tJ and bec1.!'l1c 'S 'y.'[ici cCltly ,: i"cr:;c tl12.t i t WZlS decided to split tlle gr ou p jllto two par:s c,~ Jl d W' alU:::- D i ehl stiJJ continu(!('~ 3S chairn'J. a n of beth !JZtrts . One wa s c a Ued ll e l'odYl, arnic S~.:.tbi.l j ty 2dl~ Control a Ld the other V.'<JS c a llcd /\U1:011i (l( ic .sl 2. bil] ~ ')! and C 0 nt 1'oL In lhis \T/ ay there c ould he better covcra~~ e foJ' a l ot of the ae l' OdYl1Zl!Y:.1C factoJ.' s on th e o ne h i1nd a:i d 2. JoL of (:' ~ !.ai ,k~ d :l v i o n i c Lind of p ·.': ObJ.C I~lS on the other . lAo s;; of t h e peopLe t h~lt JIVe: :-ll e nliu t1e d by na!De ._: ndcu u p on Uh~ Clul O1n a tic s i de . '1'0 c cmLin u (: i h (~ h i s tory sornewln t. 11,or e r~llJj.(lly we Ca ll'Je st eal)l. in ~~ d O'.V l tow<:~, '!.- t.!:~ t11C S p ace Ar,; e, oJ c ourse, alrn0 3 t c omp~c ~ r.:: Ly obl ivio'Js 1.:11;),:: Ll~Clt Wil S 'h;l P fJ ,; ninL~ ' E:;ccpt for t h e fina l

/! In eclin e we h a d pri.o )' to S: ' u',. :1'i.l ~ , i [ l ' n l no t rni s 1'<:,lcc n 1 thi.nk. i t. wa.s in

the Sprjllg (of 19S'i' ) : ;1 \ '{? s hi -l ~_: ton , :-t nd I thil'.lc at that tinl c t;H~ I..JACA J had one person who \":J ~~ ~.~~-) ( " 1. di n g: ~om(~ tini(! collecting inforn1at i o.l! I on vvllcthcr 01' nOl ,. cr:nc dCI)' i. ll E\ 0 c: is iallt fuLui-C i i: D1i ght ~ )'::; a.clvisable ,

; 1:0 pu t sun':c ol)j e c i E" into :;P :LCC ;' nd there: \VaE] a. i'ca l qucst i,on a t th at , , ti rne on the p art of t}w clil' c c i.. ors1np o f Lh~ ~./\C1-\. w h ether this W?cS

I I

advi sabJ.e or 'N1Jcthcr Lhi;:; \V a, s r ealJy fo oJ.h c arty to even p u t Ol'! e roan ' s tinie on it. 1 C~Ln J' cn'1.c;n i) c r at the SllbcoJnnl!.ttec rnccting 11Jat I guess we \ij ere ;J bunch of y our~ r:; i..'_l:-ks L' lat we L:: li it oUI::hL to b e worth n10re th ai ) one '.T!an ' s tin'H~ . .

s: l~uL, littl e did ctn y of tIS (1ream vh :it \vas abou t to }l appcrl~

i R: Well , I rer<J.c rn b ' ~r th e li r st wee:-; in Octob e r of 1 957 th e I nEpec:t i on \ th i.l t y C <l.l' \"~l .c; f:" l"in g 1.' (; b c hdd at Lewi s and \,vc h ~J.d th e b ookle1: put

t (.,)f~ t; LlI()l · 3i\d an Clw t;;l r l ~f; p I (' p a red and over one very fr ad.i c weeke nd \ we r ew l'(lL c~ r~V ("r 'yl L i tl~~ , U ) (i H ;\.l C J~ s pa ce ann rn1f.,!:; ilc in every othe r

" . - c' " t " 1 1 I Q'. ~ rjl~ en 'e J i~ ? C~ '.u sc l ) l'~l ·~ P. L t c: -i.:l ( g on e; \lp .. \

~3: ·V/e l .l, 1:11e)1 lroro , . . t}l~· ! t \vas really tr12 last rnee ti11g fh ~1. t "\ve 11 ad. of that Sul)C Orn n l j ft e e. The next t h i ng that: happened in lny experi ence w af.; some ti n,c later - -. it :might htive been a y ear lat t~r.

B: You were n ow at HCA?

./ S: Yes, I went to R CA in ; ~1S so I war; at Hell...

"'" B: But you mai nt.:cined your Subcorrll.nittee :mcll,bcrship.

s: Yes, J di.d . B "c2.u se on those Subcomlnittcf:3 y ou h a d u njversity pe ople and you had : !l.c.iustry people and you had govc rnnlent prople. ,\Ve h a d, what ' s hi s n"u:nc, G e rry Ka.ytcn, I guess, fl-orn t h e Nav y was on the COfnDl.ittce aJd there was an Air Force typ<:: I ' rll s ur e, I forget hi s n an,e - - frOll1 \,,'ri g! lt Fi ~'d d -. - 1 ren1crnDer what he looks like , b ut I can ' t r emernher l', i3 na.'!.")c o f fh a,nu. But anyway, the old N/\CA structure

P ::' f.e 6

was c vapoJ' a t <: d as l-.J/\ C I H 10VC rl 1. nl o ~ASA , b u t I gu c s s it nJ.'LH; t have bc: e n Kr.:!ith Gle n n ;ln (: i d ; lsJ ~ 2. g r v 'Jj) t o V_lt i:O:) [',ct hc}' S Oln c '.'c cor n m.endations f or NAS i\' Lo r con s i de r ation. in th c i r r esearch p l'0.'2r arn .

B: Was L11is pe o ple j n ::;i d e o f N/\ CA or o llol"s i de 'i

S: O u ts i de. T he gu y t h d called m e -- 1 w().s n lt a sk e d d~re ctly -­L oui s Ri denour \.v a s one of t ~'lOS (! th LLt I<.:.eith \Vent t o a nd h e s c t u p a groll p - - h (~ <lnd Bill Picke r ing J t11i nk va s his v i ce ch a ir yn an and Al I-b ll w a s a l so o n i t.

B : At l'~ orth A rneri C<ll1?

s: l-.J o, A l HaLL wa~; th eE '.vo r k i. n g [or t11C J'v1arh !1. C ornp ,:l.J1Y and he i s n ow ·jncident.ally A s sist :li \c :.)(~c:~· e tar y of I:hc D e p a rt :'l1cllt of D e fcnst! a n d I ' d k now n '/\ l \ 'iC:y bac k ttl. \H 'l.', H e ld b l~ cn ;). profess o r th er e i n s c r v o s and se o n. As a fYJ[,t.i. cr of [( I":: ~ , ~1e W ;.,S one of t.h e fi :' s i: pe o pl e t o r call y pu t t o g ..-:t h c l' tll !.:: ~~(;J.'V() H l '? O J' j' i n ~ Co r 'll (hat cou l d b (: i. D.d!_,.ht ~Jt coll e g e l eve l, W e h ad :.:t. n lcclin[~ out o n th e:: Ylc ~> i . Coas t. As I J'e l'"LH~ n1.b e r, tile I'< .:\.SA }) <.1.o. soni C k i nd of a ··l iLHi.l. l·Y o r bc i li 1.. y ther e i ll Los Ar~gcl es .

)3: I'''' c ll , t h a t wa s t he "\Ves t e rn Cool'Jination orLic e .

$: T h a t ' s W] lat it "v ;:;s,

B: .A l i ttl e bitt)' ph cr.; .

s: lU gl1 t . 'IV e' ln c t Uh~l" t: and \vLat \\l e t ri e cl t o 'i:hin k of w as w h at kind . of w cn: k i ~ .; ):" O) ! Jr.' to 1)(, !1C:l.'c'(;d io SL2bilizc s<1t c J1itcs , l)cC'Ctu s e n one of 1.1 s J~ r~~y,l _il o ·>,} v .... r~; J. J o t ,d)(lu t i. t:.'v'f c V/l' o1. e a r epo r t a t t b a.t t. i m e -a Jl (fi:}~·;:~ ;~. J g u e :·; s H \',' ,1 " i \ s lIC)(" '. " .. Li Jc; ;:l ft(~ l' -["h a t - - I w".s <tt H.C .A - - ar~ cl I go t: a c;~ J.l ·h·on ·l :; (' r'n t".,L'od·. - \, .. 110 w:J. Jl i; c d t o know if I ' d cor:uc and w or k f or t h e r U '.. ,'-:;j\ in t.lw fidel of :;Ll iYi J i i.y and c ont rol a nd J sai d th a t J di d n ' t t hink th<lt I cou ld q uit e do (ha i., I r ernen,b c r. I as k e d whe t.lH~ r iL wasn ' t pc,:;.,~;ible to '..(, Ilt i nu.e \',<1: : ") '~_jh; sa n lC kind of rel a hon.sh i p tha l I h a d \", her, 1 was on the con1m jttec 1'01' ~\JACJ\ . A t that t i m e it had not be e n de c i d ed th a t the cOll"1rn ittee s y s t e rn w ould not b e r ee st. (1)li s h e d.. Sorn et.1nl c l ater i t w as .

B: Ke ith m .a i.ntaincc1 1. 1: \) nti l J ann <'l.qr of 'f;;9 aad the n it kLi.d a evar)() r a ted as y ou say and a t a b .tc1 tirne it was recstabli sl1ed.

s: I gu es s I wa s w r on g on when it ev a p o r at ed. It evapGr ;:lt e d. a l ittl e bit aft e r .

B: Ye s, b eca.u se j u s t t h:is past w e e k I ' ve g o ne thr ou gh SOlne mi n utes of the N AC A a nd Ke i \.h c orne to t hc l ast mee tin g of the NAC A, the o ne th at J irnln y D o olittle :')l'(!~.; icl e d a.t .

IS: B u t , th a t was il' ' 5 7 or am I wron g ? 158 .

D: ' 58 ,-- It Wit.':! i'1 i 1::"1~~~ of '~:;f3 . .il1~~t ait(~r F':cith h a d b ee n con{irnled and 3WOi.-n 11 1 .-., l1 c :':J',,1 1[\.<~h. Clcnna'1 a~ Lh<,t point i. !1 tirnc selid he w ant ecJ to continur; (Il(.' C:.'Ini~'1, i1..t l'C Sy:;tClll. through t he y ea r and ev e ry­body S<l~d. "\'/<..:1.1, \' ' ') ' 'It,:':-- ·~:1'Ul.. ' I Y'.J~ :'jay l1ic.lcnuu r l s cO!I1rn itt.ee , was it j\l s t wor ki::g on s La'>j: .. i;·;,J ,Ir,(:1 cu!,Lrol? 1'11. a tls the one t.hing ..

$ : PJ 'cs u !l lably t'wrc '.';ere oU1<:.:r gr oups.

B : Yes, thats '.v1J <lC J l'.',-:cd to t.r c:~ck clown because t hat was i n the i n t e rim per iod ,uld J.l ve go~ ', ':' c:.lr " y n'IV story U~) to O c iob :!r of 158 w}len J\U\.CA ceased vnc i 'N A,sA oIi.:':::i;::.1..ly ':)c~:.an.

s: 1\: 0 v, vilthout f',('Iii;?; 1)t:lc'l( t o ),(,), r c!c orc1s whi.ch J. .r~u ess they 'r e a U up at Ivl1T , 1 can ' t ~,! JL YU'" CXLlctl~r when thi:":; Was. It rn ay hav e been ' 59 l ' ]'n j\l ~t n~) j' quitl! ~;Ul c, Cui, there v:as s orne period i !1 t.h e re when there w a s (l. Cj i.JI'stion nf '., ... 1);:·1.. \::~lcl oi ~-\~~;eal'ch tile Nl\SA ~hould r.arry out.

13: I wou J(1 gucs,c; C'",i' \voc.J.cl be'S!) p .!:obably.

s: Yes , and. so t.bCE;'~ spe ci;:>...l cOJn lnitt ees were p1Jt togetl1er. It \vas a onc -- 811 ot de a!.

B~ AJl d 1.11(' .11. John C:r)l' "on of -- what ' s that 111anagenlcnt ...

13: Ye s. Booze ALj,(-- ll. (and H:Jj'n iit on)

s: But lh;lt \vas ;'.. li~LJ.c: diLferc:Jt. That was not what the contents should be .• b ut hcn';! to org an:i:," c t.o do jL

B: Ye s , but Ke ith \'/;::; ([oing a l ot o f soul sC2'.' ching in trying t o cor:nc up with l)(l\V to s !.rucL ~l rc L!lC new <:1.gc ncy and the dc:~;i f, n turns out to be VloJlc1criully g ood . /',;)<1, t.h e wor k that you and. D i ck Hor.ner did of s erving :1 8 n,t:! exc cu :.,i'."c offic er on the ship wa s te J:riuly terribl y ) rnporiant.

0: V!cll, of cou rse, that w as sti ll a year lat.er.

B : ScpLenlbe r J of ' 60.

\ S: OJ IC,O. But DicL s t arte d i n the summer of 159, I gues s. ,-, I he serve d f01' abcut a year.

At l eas t

\ -: ,; ' \ B: H e rnadc a cornmihnent

L Ju::e of 159 [or one ':r:! :lr. as I recall to C01nf! aboard t h e fi r s .t of

~- '/'. - -... --s: And he served for one year.

B: Plu s one monUJ.

• I

'.

YJr. [:'f..!~tJ,T);, tn G

S: Plus o ne l nontl--j . :<"(~ j th c alle d }TJ (~ o n the phon e . I Vl:,:" t11c n at RCi\ a n cl I g llC ss it \,/;\ 5 ;> b()~d [' 11_' )'l i. ddle or L~ U [,. C> SO!TJ C\t/1 )cr c )rJ th. c~·c _ I really !lad ne v ('r IY1Cl. l«(;::. ' ~ clt t h a t tL'·nc . I , oj' r; ()~ J j' .j C! , kne\'1 wbo he \vas a nd be i u it \r~-:_ r :{ d.~r (;(t. ~"'t.~-!· ~30 !1. 2. ~ )rou k .i1 0\V (,ntj : 'lC :l aid that L:,c 113..c1 sor-ne t] iilg very im l;()l't ~Jd t.h~·lt"l.le \v~\ !I Lc cJ t o eli s c) :" :; with me ~Il:d was I goillg to be i n \'l ;~~.'hi .'1 ::"tn;:t in tl !c !l c x1 f ew d;).y: ; . \\"' .:: 11 , I actn all y d idll't 1-1avc any plan s i u 1) e L ~ }c'r (! ._;0 1 ju s t t ol cl biln t l-lat 1 di d 11 1t a.nd I V /c:l S

abo\lt t o s~<y bul I ' D (; u t'n c tl e".'h, if you wiud: wh e n 1l C said. well , could y ou h~~v e din ne r \\l i~ h. :."lh! ,J)J:i:;:ht ill Bo!; l o n at the :;Ld.ler. Anc~ I said I 'd b e h a ppy lo . So , I 'Ne!l i: int o th e Stat..'.c r ::lnd lL c!re was Kcjt..h in t1lE' Ivbby ,~ nd w e i n t r o ri-..lccd (;i:1C}1 o t h er a nd ',\'(~ llt in ~'t qd We hadn lj, <lnv rnol',:;

' thd!1 had tlll:: f;OUP (·O:.l r !:;'~ wh':I) he t ook (IU! a ll Ol' .)::t ~ · ! i/,'ition Ch 0.1' t of the NASI ... <.lilLi h e si.~ i ·cl n()w 1 \'::lf1~_ you to 1(1():< a t tk s " ~:h -art a:1.cl I '.van:: y o u to

i con.:; jc.lc r ri ~1 1 t no\-'y" ,,: ,.y!;: i,! J;_", dO\'/il and L, ).;,-ing 1.. h :;.. 1: j (J1) (~ ncJ h. e p ointer] ~t tl1c [;t;llc raJ. nl (tnc!~~~~ ! ~ I :, ,in;) ur l11c C.!;.~. ecl...~ t j ' ,,r c o ffic e1' ! ~3 jol:J a r:d then l-!G procee decl t o C.xl)Ll i n ·.;I'~lt t! ,,:,: j o n W(1:- . ~;(), I ;:lr'.': ,··cd th a t I l eL ccd".in ly 10 0;, i ll to it a nd (;Cl;n~ etr)','.'!) ~ ( l 1,\I ."l,'~ h in! '. l () : ·l in n,,:! 11e ' ·; :-. l ev; da)r.s. And at

\ th~lL t:iruc l l nr.: t Die'.:, ; :n l' j!",l" \':1';.0 on] y },,'H ! :: ... ~h c\t'l \\· hil(~ to 1",;0.

B: He ' d rnac1c a con)!!:ljhnc!1t to go to T'\or t hrop a t t..h '.tt ti.1TIC.

s~ That's ri g ht and I t},ink i !. \'\' a: ~ Wi Lhi!) 10 d~'Y ~i th,l t I c..gr8ed lId take iLCtlt, I [; (11 d I !'(:.dly ('.olll. cn 't s t2. rt l'.ntil ~ lic 1 ;;t 01 SC?b':: H1I) Cr , SO, ~'.i.C [jot .Dicl~ 1:0 t .. ~ ::t ~nd ::t l1H l'-: i h :->nc1 th e n t :1C!' C: Wi:CS ;,'-:. !~' iLtll~h \·v' l.cn tI"; er c was nobocl y C)(;i- c , d . hicl Lu:3 , amI th e n I st2. rt e d j r:~ Cln t 11C 1st of Septcl1J.ber .

D: It wa!:i th ell t1 J ;;!I: )10 1.: C ; .. !T"C:: to b (~ ill. <~ pO f:: i!.ion \\'h e re Y0U c o u ld s e(-~

th e B ob Gi l l'ui hs ,l ltd th e. j l;ll-ry GO i.~tts <3.>")(] tbe i\b' ~;iJver s tl;jns ai> 1} ){; '1 h;ld U!.]<.·':;l\ off il l >.: ;\~.t'('}\ c ;).p a nc! pu t on thc ~'\r./'.\ ,:;.A c a p. \ Voul d yO\..l I-ij,e to c onn !lC n~, ; l H lt]" i li t r.,b un t that'?

[) ~ ~~ uce ., \.~r t.:.l ... , }{c~it J.! tt1. <.1 ,r:.o rn.e t11i .ng 1J'at pro'v e L! L(} be v'ery ver'y v-a lu. 21.bl fi' ... Il e r; :ti,1 1h;J f. I'd p:: u () ab}:: n'~··,(; r have a h e tt e l" C h':-l !)CC than tI1C rno n Lh of SCl_, t c !) lL'", r "'ih r: 't T \',!,u.' ( i ,::i ')J1 t1ie job t o 13' 0 around and takc a look at the c)J." g'arl i zati o n , ,~,; (), I ~,:;; r;'C:'o:, Il lo st of t.l1at Ino11tll ) n t r <ivel i llg z.nd. w J-lcre·t.rer 1 went I took 'lv'i.th n "10 t}H~ W '1S ~l'j ng ton per s on \\1110 \.vas respon~:;ib le for th a t p art of Lh c pJ:o(~r"rn . .F'o r e ): ;)'J.npl e , wh en I went 1..0 the Jet :Propu:~ sion L ab , I had AD t:; Sil.'·.' eJ"3td n w ith Jl,,)C OC C 2.USC he was i. n ch a rg e at that tirn. t·:. 'When.1 went to - - let' ~; se c, I had A l)t o tt with HiC "'v'he n I wen t c'lovn1 to Langl ey, f or cxan")~) :!E". It wa s very inlcr e sting to see 11 0"\A' th e indi viduals adapted. Al)c Silvcrstei. , g r atlo e d a ltold of eve r ythi n g that was thrown b efore hirn 2.ncl just chewed it up like raw meat and then 50111C.

B: You 'r e so righL . you ' re so right .

.3: I' el known Abc, ~)ut i't O t terribly \p ell and I co:.lsidered hi rn then and I consider hirl) now 'Yle of th E' most c ffe ctive p eC[~l e -- individuals --

~'I that w e could h :lvC ~~ "d in the job at th at v ery critical stage. ~-Ie \v as n ot a n"12.n who c: id n' L r a i se , o r h e ~ id l"2. 1 S C hack.; .;. s Lron: ti rn c to tirne b cc2_use h e w as VC l y S11 re of hiHlscH .::\ ·)el r nOl"C; Lan not he ',vas ri ght bu t sornctirn c s i t v./;\ ~; n ' t c asy for those who disa;; ,-ecd with him.

Page 9

D : 1'1-1(: inlcrf::tcc hC't\\ ('.:; n Abc and the JPL ty~p~ '_~ _" was very abrasive:. . .-.- ' --' - ... ------- -

s: Yes, I really gc'!,- ~nLo th~\!: , oi' coursC!, vvl]cn I went out: of t h e C! .

Th<lt W;:' S rC;:-llJy ;l Ll c ~~c dhol:ll ::; jLtLJ.tiO)1, There \ ' (: 1' G rea:!. hcad s uutti n g out i ')( )'(- ,-_'., !-,'1 t.i1-,'t I) , . , '' ' ' ' ,1 ., ) 1" ,,' ~ , ' : C1'" ell' [Ei "LIlt n,- oJ)l '-'-'-') t,', l ' n ~olve ,,)-](1 -. I _~ _ ~ _., ,, ~ . ._ \ '- , _ '. \ . ~.. ,.. )' .. .... : ~ _ ~. _ . . , . , . -.J _ .:> <- . _

coni in.l.1,(' r1 z.J rn 0 s t I] l~ ,' :' ::: oh-c' d f O ~: rn ~~n y Y£'J.~.r s.. lon:;.1 orl L: ~1 . a c r Abc 1) ad gone hack to Lev/is, It ~:.;C'~D ln Lo the pr el·ug 2. livcs of C;;.l. T'~ ch and <'..11 k~:~c1:Co of L hing~; .

B' JP _L didn 't wail~: t o v C~·'.} ' anybody elsc ' E; collar, t hat: ::; ab out what it arn.ountccl t ::).

s: And vr..ry COlY'j.lt.'f· l~nt .' b u.t tJJ '2 Y DJ so saw the ac1V~l'Iltag(~ of ri(! ing c]o\vn l)~)th ::;le!e~) c!f t 1) (: S~ )' I.;r;~. ! \L t:i,n\.~ ~-l, it We' .. ::; 'fery convenic t t o be a Govr:]'))n)~nt. ol'[;"niz,ation . ,\1 ut ~ ~c [' hrnc:s ii' wa~; very c onvenient: not 1.0 b e (\ CO \l(~l')l!YH, :~f; org ~n,if~~i.i () nJ bL.;t t o be c:i university o l'r,ani:;.ation and n o t to <·lw«)':; (jo \ '.'hal t he C o vel ;":nlc nt \·'l :·,~f.:e(l. A'1d they lJ.laycd j t

back Clnd LorCb i n slJ.<.:h ;1 \V ZlY L! l ,'.t i.t w;:s v(~ry difficult to J'n anage .

s: Vlell, 11 e ;:.lso n.".o }"is h'ons 1.;1 t[1(; [in; h .. H) l)CC;t'-lS(~ it IT\eant a .101.

really to C Cl 1 T<.;cll to h :).ve that pi () ~'.r~'.>'-) In;i. ,j ; l;'..;d Ul )'ou~:h Clcrn. So, we h~td l..u COJ1 !,idc:'J' n',) ~ "nly t'1 i. ".: };d}rHat· o~·y tJ·I~ . t was irn p ort.ant to t.!)e lJJ'ograr1'1, \ -,if; "tlE;O ]l;-\ d. :: 0 con~;i.d c !: (he: ir0JJa ci- that our decisions v/ ou.ld ha.'1 I_; on e' l' ('dllcnl' j' )I I,:)] > ;s L t\1 ti 0'1 of to:) <.h· ;:; wer ':11.1ah!:y. Mentionin g 2. fe w ot h,rc'.l' p co pl --.: i," ~, t 1. k':0\\, _.- Dob Ci:r:lltlJ, 0 11 (" or [}Ie nl o ~;;t rr::rn a rk<.\b l c n"\en 1 J1 U _w ~' l) ac e I-' _ i.. ".~ ~ :. ,'.1,1 ..

B : D~dc))' e W e' Ie,;·,;' /\ b c. 'No uld yOt] azr;~ c thCl.l he: V/<.ts perhaps ha ppies t \'lhen h e \-vent back to Le'.vis where he could IJC l'unll i ng ilis own show and getting his hands ci.i i:ty sorn etil,},Je s?

s: '\Ten , I th ink ),QI.'. " rc c"lnl0st 'hit it. He \-vas h ap p1 est ,,-,he n he was running his own S})l)\\', but l~ c \ ',IClS!: l t adver s e :-0 ll:lving it <:\ vf:'ry b j ~

show. And.1 think if J)C ' d have had his druthers h:2 \,T,' C'I.! l d h2.ve pre ie n."ed t.o stay in 'l"l<:>.shi ngLon ~,-nc1 1'nan':'.3,e , but on his OV,'J'l te.rrnr3, an evC!n .L ... /. l arger s e gme nt of tJ'J(! IJ:t'ogran'1.. As for e::'GLD1Fl c,. the Manned Space -' Flf,ght Prc.. griJ1Yl .

B: I see.

$: But , i:f he coul(~~]l -c do that, he l'll.ade it very c 1.E::;:~r to nle in cuit..:: a munbcr of conve:rs;)Lions thai.: 1 had as we weI": nt:gotiat ing in the sunlrn Cl' of I()l how 1.0 rc:.:c>l'gani7. C:! , he Inac:c it verI clC3r Ulat if he couldn't really take : l en \'.'iU) hilYl in th:~ dr i ver ' : scaL, that 11e 1 cl D:uc h

.. ) , I '--.

PaGe 10

prefer to go back tu Lew:if, ~1nd !T !<lj)2. g e tl ;:"l.t Center . And that1s what we did. He did ;l c;r e ;-,t j 0~) Gut ther e; in b\.!iJ.djng up t1l<.tt Center .

13: I-fe rnad c it (l Cen t er of PY'opu J.,sio :-, e ~:ccllcpce.

s: I agreed to \vo r k \>,'j~h l) i lYl 011 it if he went bacl- and I can' t rcmen,her the exact ntllnO(·: l" s .. but J thi nk when he '.\' cnt bad·" th.,re ll1ight. have been a litile.; 0 c)' 3 , OOC> e rr , ployccs Elnd I think v,·'h~~n I left NASA rn.aybe i t vIas 5 ,000 and 'vc h2.J 2. lot of new .l<t c ilities thert~ and i t really worked ou t be au LiLUll y.

13: Viell, Gi l rut1.1 W;:l:,t e d ~ · o run his OW J) PnJj ed; l\'i c rcul'Y, a IDal1 in space, and he didn't want ~;o~·ncl)ody cds ':! tell ing 1Jirn 1-ds every J1.,ove.

s: Now,. w e ' 1"C talking ao o u 1; Gil:;: \] th?

D: Ye s ,

s: AU right. So we h2.ct Cil ;: u : h at L ::l.nglcy r·,lJ:1n;,r::; the NJt,r cu ry progr am when 1 went clown t he n :! bu t his b oss was j\ !)t; Si.lvcrsi;c in hack inV/ashin:;t o n 2.11(1 t1")(;1' e wel' C ,S(YT C sparks thc:r: e J9.o , because 1;h c~/ )' c both very stu:)/)orn 11lCn, .,! Cl' Y a:)le }!Jc ·J1, l)lJt quite c1i.f!: c r.ent in · tc~npc r rnent.

B: · In effect, Dryd e n hacl of{cl'~d Giln1t"il (h e job tha.t Si.lvcrst::::in Cam.c d own fin;.tJ.ly to d o . Bob J!ad first l'dus a l on tJlat jol).

I.~: 'l" h at 'was l> c!() l' \..:: !"Yl ')T d;.1.Y·, .so I clonlt 6:110V/ t}l(lt .. l 'c1 sa)' 'Al e sort of, it w a sn ' t all luc k , b\11.: VI C! \\""~r C' at l e as t very for tilrdt c to 1) ;).v(; p e ople of th e c a p a )) :i E::y· 0' 1\ 1" .. : n. nd E oll Gilru h 2.nd obviou s ly th e re ' .'/C1' e o thers a s w ,,)]. B\ It. J. ~l in k it '1.';> (1)l' Lu ::a!:e 01 ;:1. 1: nC';) did [::LIY where h e d.id . I el( ) '1 i 1· nk ti l ill. i.e \!/Cl1.li d hz·, vC' t a kcl1 to (b e 1'V"2.shi'I)_',10Il scene the ·'\lay tll .. il. ~\ lJ c d iu. '/\ I, (! .. ,,'as v cr y ~~ood. with cornrni tl e (:s. H,,: a l ways knevJ all the dd ,)i. ] e cl fac tf;. H e va ,} v ery a r ticulate, quite quid" of rnincl.

13: Oh, he W{j.~; a man of g r eat abili ty ,

I

s: Bob is a nluch 1"L'101·C , i:a a ,vay, thO'-.lghtful piC' 1" {Jo n. I don ' c say that Abc i sn ' t tllO\l [;htful, but Bob is a very careful pCl son. He thinks tJlings through bnt he i.:liYlk::: LjJl"ough i.n r~ reat d::::pth. I l' c rn em.ber when I f i rst m .et hirn, the first cn;-lnce Ilu:lci to l·cally chat with him after I becanlc Associate Adrn~ . .n i strato~ he s;:~i ( l Bob thCl'c is SOHlcthing that J JUEt got to get aC J ' Of~ s 1:0 YLjU.

I

B: Thi s IS G il ruth?

S: Tb.is IS Dob Gilruth. He said, " we 'r e doing thi s Mercury Progr am

I /

on a shocs trin~ ", a1!'! he said, '12. lot of people w o n't agree with rne, but 'I thi s \'/holc prog rani:;'s ~oi"g to fall apa l' t 01' be s uccessful dependi ng I

on how we do in rnanilcd flight. Its the bigge s t, l ' I OSt j;npo:rtar..t ihir~g , i

\

/

,j

Pc.< g,2 11

\,'e ' re doinG and \vc ' n~ v"ry vcry ]j !n itc~ c) in personnel. y!e .j'.lsi . ...ggt_ Ct.

Vl:.ry s1n,,11 n Ul l1D Cr c< 1.".:0;.,1.(, a .~'! (l l.:Ll"."!yi rc \Vor~;:ing 70-80 h.:"l17" 5 Cl. WCck

and \v c ' ll do i.he hest \\'(: can, l~.u~ \\'c nccd _cL lot Ul0..rC. h e). p and 'l Lot rlt orc [;\.lppo :·t if wr~ 'j:C \~()i:~:f to be s u ccessfuL I I lid say n~0.t Bcb rose to every' o ccasiOl I, bn '~ not '.'.'ithout 2. lot of pain on t !l e pa ::·t of the ac1n li nistr a t ol"s , ra.1.'t~;.C1d(\dy of i;~C c l cdcal t'/P('~ b(l. cl~ :i n "'l ashin;;ton . EvC' x- ybotly sol'!. of f~·jL t; ;;.,1; ~) CJb ()\l~~ht: to : 1ClVC thi.ll.[;s rr,o".:'e neat an ' tiely and h ave cvc r y t:'1ill~~ (»: rf ani7. cd in a rn o r e cOJ1ve).iti.cn a l \\'ay .

/ .. \.-l .'-, .... /' I

Thos(: dir <:: ctly l'es!.lon :.:iGle ~o;' t )I 0. l""HU e el prog r ::nl \:.;e re aJ.'.1 ays tryiJlg to get on Bob , and. even [ rem') ti.me to tinl e s l~ggestec.J that 'we get sorneLotly d :;e to l·c pJ. a-.:c birn .

13 : Vicll , V,'<d.t Wi:U i'l.ms }'clel beell ll"O',l ght in to 'r)ac l~ him. up a"1(l biv e hi n1 s up port , and the), ther e W;cS Charlil3 Donl <:lr. t oo.

s: Char.li. e DOlllall an ,J thC::1 Jatcr 011 \·,' C br01..lg:1 t in Ji nl Elnls and th en VI C n lo 'lccl C (;0.r ~.~1": .1 .... 0\'.' dO\'/ll <It (:!v c: n a l a t. e r cl a t,-, and J oe She a was \

\ move d c~own \Vhl~:\ ~\f! · I.~r ';o b nl0\rcc! tile. Sua cc Task Groun fJ: orn Lannlev 1. _ .. J ,

QO'Nll Lo J-[0I.10t(P l • .I " l .L, ~ ~ JOS(; \-,'110 had t.h e f i.n al n:: E;ponsibili1..y - -. of whorn. l id say 1 was 01"[(: c'.-:Jd Hugh D r yc]cn and Jim ·Wel.'b, 1<c i1..h Glc nn ar: 'whe n he was t l 1c! J' c .-. i.:E h all ~o rlluch co nfi d ence i n Bob ' s fin a l c.xceHcn t j udp :1"j(~ rJt ;:Ind so un f. h ~ ,l '.'.·c.·.· ;11'.'/ays felt that rather ~ 11 "n re p'!., cc h : rn tiJat

, ,

j I

) ;

,

. }} (: ~ll(l ht to Il.:l.ve t he,: !'l C'11t ':: i. nd o f SU1) ') o r t <'!.ncl U'lat ' s thc- w(lv it y\Jorkcd \;) ... • L J .

l'ig )>!' clown to N f'i ] /~r J)l .~ l rong l anding on the r:no on. I d o n ' t t h i.nk tll (~ ! :r ,

';i"" ;\ / \

wit: J 70' 2 0 11i n c! :.; i c! ;l~, \ \/(! couJcl h ,',\' C cJ ~ne a n"Jr beUc ::' th3.~l h a vin~ D ob . i r~ / . ' • ...... 1

th <:1.t joh ;.tl l the '.'.' a y thl'(.J\1 g1.,. lIe \'/a5 a l w<lys ri ;;ht in th e Cl'u:llch \~' hcn / the t ough. Jecis jol! S 11:1<1 to be: rnad e . .J' B: He could l ·u.: , to coin ct l)~r<lSe, a rni .serablc son-· ()f .. ·a- b:it ch on oc c 2.~;i on.

r;: -Nell , tb(lr;'~ ," '":r(" Y('\'t' words, but , yes h e could be a r eal Jog i n j'he )'i l anj?;c r (l1>onl thing.,:, ;;' T\d hang his bead and !,cuif hi :.> fecl <. nd (':)rn r 1·' .'n -1)"0 " '<"l',, !iyj 'l'" .. '-- .. _. < . ~ _ I .l._~_ l Ie . . l' v ~ I .. . J. .. ::) c

iJ: W)le n 1)(~ rea.J ly got urhappy, 1-lis voice \J.,!I,.-mld becornc querulous and go up about onc and a h 2. l£ ~)ctaves . But, you ' ve given a v e ry w e J.J. te rr..pered jucl [?;:llent c;{ the !DaJ1. and a good one. You s2. id you mi gh t say a \vorcl or 1\'/0 about H.:::.r l'y G oett who w as pullc(l ifl to establi sh th e GodJard .

s : 'Well, h ere was a n othe r D"l.an I kncw v,.re ll and by the tilDe I \".'as Associat e .i\cirni nistl"at:cJ" , he was t11c Di rector of GOdQarcl which"' was j u s t in th e process "f rnoving out of Naval Rescar.:h Lab facilltics

I

\ , , 1

and getting out to a new location out a t Bclts yille . Har~'Y had a defi nite view of how to run SCl' l(~ thin~ and this vic\\! was that anything that J h appened, in any cl ir ection, of any so d, or any cornnlunic ati o n with the Goddard S p ace F' :.ir.:h L Center h a d to go througll hirn .

B: That was the tr 2i.l ,i.nc h e ' d g otten frorn Srnitty DeFrance.

,.'

.'

s: You ' re eXi.lctly r i;~h J~· . '1'1)c arnazinv: thir.~; i s to Inc and SOfT , (:

time you lni ght witllL ::0 i nvest.ig~tc this , S ~llil.ty .lJcFro.l1CC a ll-nest wantc~dl.0 ;-t pprove e ' C.l·Y posl.:t ~ c dal'Ll :) th at <.\r,yoocly '-'.se d. He wan l cd to kncJ'.'1 \'/hu \,/:.~.,,; cor'.~ iJl.r.'; i n and 01.l~ o f J\rncs . !~t the S(:1.l-:1(: tirn c , h e l ';-l ll th·i.n g;-; a~5 ;! ~)r c tty LCl ut ::;hi.p, But,.1 third<. ,. if you look aL th e T' 1.) cor J L!l;'cL :;O;llC of th e J"nos t [1.~ndaJill:·nt<d. \\101'1<. that w;:.,~ d on':! in o u r counLry ill the f i e lds that J\nlcs V/.:t [; involved in was ,Jane thcJ:e a~ An'.cs.

B: A bsol.u t. ely spl endicl wo r k.

S: An~~ he: hau pcop) c: Hk..: n:a !: vey Allen \\'ho ;~i j ust lop d l'awe ~,

anci Al Eggers \Va ,'3 top dl' c1.\vcr, a!1 d n. . T . J01lC S \VhOnl I didn1t knm\' ;:lS wcU, but I a~:;rce Wjt!1 you , zd',cl :r-Iaccy Coed , too. B ut I-Tarry was i rnbuc c1 with tha i: Hl.etll o d of operation. The othcJ:s v.'c r cn 't .

. t. . ~

1:$":" " 'Nen;. J. c an rC l ne n~bcr W1H!l l I C<l.l n (~ 'v'.':n·! O,e NJ\CA -j] ' ·1-9 , I went: O\lt to l~m e s t o:) sp enc.: t wo ~l)onths and at tl lat p'oil1CT;~ " Lilne every single lon~:~ · . d :l!,L;L i lt te l ephone C Ctl.1. off the reservation was pC:1'8unolly C1.ppl'o vr~d by Srni.tty DeFrrt nce .

s: Tl,Ci.L's ri g1it.

B: A!'l to the t11~ · c c .. c(~n l pos t ,-~ gc s t arn.p s of th Q[;C: days, I don ' t l'er;lC 1Ylb e ::- t.hat part.

C" t.)! \ I(·a, 01 at \V 2.. S a 8 li ~~H you didn't: h<1. \ '(:. 'V 1 :3 i t. '.-'" r !, i. J ~ ,

H ; \-V e E, ,~v.ch 1:: 1) () .t" ~ , l nr-y ,

p !l il. n:;nph:-!" of i'hr; (i:i rcd n J. '.l. JH d:l,(,t; Sr'nitLy' It ;1.c! a t hird. good \>,Ior-k,

eX2.ggcration, but you dj dn ' t take 2_ trip, you d arn v/(; 11 \VC rc- a Iccot

'-group.

no qUCSti011, reflected, rn irrored, th e Henry Hcid h a cl one; Ray Sh a L'p h a d

A nd. e ac ll Centc-: r did goocl work, very

S; BuL , o ny-way . Y-?a_rry W;\S definitely i n the sarne rnold anel its \ OEC i1!in~ to run a rese;).rch l :lboratory that wc:~ y -- l'n1. n ot even sure that l s corrcd . .. - hut, when you 're Tn,p.ning sOlll c thing of th e dim en~;icn of t he Goddard Space F li g ht C e nte:;: where they h a d all th e cumr,mni c atiull r ('~ p6nsib:'~it i cs l or all the rn aj or projects and lot s and lot s of s .. d..l' ])) Lc.. pr oj -::. cts J.nd th ere ju st had to be rnany lTI <lny vi s it s of h(~ adqna r1c r s p c oplc; tb C l'e and other C cnte r p e ople h a d to corne in ~n~l wor:( "T.'ith j'!: f:'nl ; like tl~e Iv1ercury teaITI a ncl t h e oiher agen.cii2s ~i l-:: e th() Air Force ;:\.11 d so U'1.. No one person can possibly sit t!'.e :r·e a nd serve as a fun nel f OT everything going in and corning o u l. It ju st canl.C to be excruciatingly difficult after a wbiJ.e io keep tlli!l[;S on an eve n keel '\vith H e,rry there at the helm.

B : \ VeE, -in i nc ,- " ,..), C<'.l' ;,lcs t clc~ys of NASA, as I recall, the plan ha d been to H i OV::: l'Ac;rnn-y itl. to be l ocated at Goddard.

/

/

s: That's correct.

D: P~nd, Gilrutl1 \v ante d have workccL

.P~l.ge 13

\ no p<1.1't of '~hat an ~i. I don ' t thi nk it would )

/

s: Well, I remern h e l" T:( ci th a~k(:d me to look a t - - one of the first thin;!s h e aSkl~(i. :1'.·.; 10 loo~( ;}:; w as t1) ;J. ~ : o rganizational D;aiter, He also askcd D1C ;'0 1001< fh e y cry ii l'st d ay .[ was t]pr e at cOlnrnunic'LiollS si:lL~:Jji. t c ::; and wh l',h(;1' \VC shcl.1hin ' t hClVC so rnct;ling rnorc (han Echo i:Jll~ lw LuJ.c: ln c: t.llat the ~:t~<~her; Comp;1ny h2.cl corne in \,Vitll an i n t: ,-: r c"til ' ~: p rop()s~\l ~\nd hl: fch we ought to look at th<,.t -- t}-L i ~:; \v as 3:', \ve \'vd] k l. ~d ("\c .! .. os~-, .L ~ fay(;tle ~~q ll al·(· g\.)i11g to th e 'Whi t e I -}0\15(: )'l)CS,'~ lU" l v -,ch, ~i.'hi s o l.· r- ;.l ni7,; lLio 'laJ rnatLl~ r was one t11;1 1. I c on~3j c1 '-~ I' C cl cI \! 1'i I ' ~; 1.: l at fi l' :; L ,~.Xcpt2·'-(11)c rand f,-c :,-n 1-e :)-leim)c r :rn(:C!ting '.,':t1J Kei th C' ll it [Jor!1 C:: tiJrlC: L:~-:'(!r, rJl;Ayb (~ in O c tobcr; and "--., I felt th al W(; ()U~)!lt co l( i\l(' V11_' ::v!2.J'!f' c d S',:ace t"Ji"fll Frc"Y]'~n{ r:n o re

\...' ' CJ ...:, _.

vi ~~il Jility . 1 \Va ,; nc\ ,.'.t cl(-:: ~lr ~.10\V far I<:cjth bjrnscli' \dPLe d to g o' .. bu t it: bCC i lr1lC c l ~are l' zl. ;,d cl'!~\rt'r ~o a le ~. h il L the Pre s ident didn ' t want to . cla 11'lUch IJ '~ Ol' (: th,).n \','c were doing and l ' n1 s ur ," that I<c1t.b }:ccogl1izing that war; b eing very cal'cfll in Cllly ::.;tcP6 that \\'c l1l.ade.

\ \

\

B: I-IC: __ \'Ic1.s _crJqrri1ously 1.0 )'2.1 Lo '\1\)" Eisc:1ho'.','cr. l\ s a Jnaiter of \ Lcd, tc c1a.), he js (i' (! 'I" ( " J';' rl~f(;11s ;'lC - a~ .:,i .'l~; i. 1.1 ,c idea thclt Eiscni1(J\'le!' / wasn ' t terriLl y exc:~t('cl ;<1> Jut tLc :;pacc pr ogl·;,<1;' .

s: In thi G cor~ncction, I went to .:.t C a H,nct n:~,::cting \-vith Keith (:).1 d IJu gh (Dryden) a nd :- '..::.): pr escnkd th e _ .. J Lake it back .... l<cith pr csented the bucl f',c t ror t il e folJow il, g yea}' <"l lld \-v'hat W(~ WC1'e 2:oi! g to do with it to Ul (' Cil'i.Ji!l c t . n;(~e 1:iTJg .

s: This ,\Vi1S in l?isr. ·,J f62 (the roechng 'wasin tlle l ate fcdl of 1960. WTB) . T hL; \'. ,' ~:: a bucgcl. thai W eU ; ;; oi Jji~ Lo be: at abo, ·t $1. 1 billion. j'>.~; a n1 ,l ttcl' of fact, Keith <'.nei I h.::.d gone oveL- to argue with Maurie St" ... n!:; to see if "ve couldn ' t ad d $50 l}')iUion. l\.1aurie wouldn't l) (:).vc <':ll:y part of it becau se it \VclS $1. OC)5 a lld fin a lly l<':ejrh in exas peration said, "well wJ,at do you want anyway, Mr, Stans, II and he. sai.cl, '!~ want a b::ll'gain b::to;'2l"ncnt f1gur ~ for ~)2.cc. II But at the f;arnc Cabinet l"nee ting, F.:: s·:':::.1 ·~0'.'"sk '/ gc1.'.'e the 'i' e-suIts of (:). study th ai.. PSAC had made 0;1 0.. n.lannc cl luna~' exploration. T})c Llcl thai it might cost as rnllc:h as $35 billion aord i t __ was ~.: ccciv('d with derision, I woul d s:,Ly , by cverybocli in tb:a~~abinct. T l]-r.·:'" ,s .aid, tl1>S is prcpostcroll ;; . 'I"lhy woul.:1 anybody want to spe',d 3.11 i~is rnoney O!'1 sonlcthjr.g liIre this, And then the President s2.i c1, "" i cll, .l.et's con)c back to ,·cc-.lity, what do you a ll think is the ri g ht level of cxpcncli lure for a srace program ? a billion dollars a )' 1.: c.tJ · , a billion ,~ nd a rial[ a :;~!a r?" I renl c ).nbcr sOlnchody s::lying, " if we let t~lr;!;;e s cientists f'~ ) to t h e n'loo n, the n ex t thine th cy lll ·. '.'~.llt to do is go to e le p12.r~' t.~:;. II But, in that c ontext, I S\.lggcstt~ci to K eith and tl11s doesn't .~ c ern very

o

',Y

adVC'Jll\l.l'CS O!!'lC now , t 1, ::! t_.-:'!(' OI!._eht PJ'OD.l.otc C eorge Low W110 was,

1 c;].u't )"cnle!Ylbc .'· ~:-: (' <..::·:::tct :'l~\l~ he ' h~_ d, Fiif ~)C \vas th~~ V{~\~~hin;"Lon p crso'l. 1.11 C;l:·tl'~:,/' oJ.' r~l.;Ln 1:0 rnan progral'ns. He \voJ' ],cd for .l\bc Si1.··/cn;[:·.,in. I l.L.ink he J' e porV~d to ;,;olT1ebocly who :r cpurtcd to f. ')(~ i:lncl .L f i\ l n~C.'; t c d tlvl he ought l 'c be 'pror':loted

. . sC! h e 'd ]'('po r t c: .i r,,-~ci;ly to i'.bl' to gi v e iY.l<lJ1))ecl Hi g ht a little D"l OJ'e vl.§.Fi?,iL.ty . . Ar:t.l thr·n I ~;a:l, ,hid: \vin l J'cgarcl to wh at: to do wjth th e 8 1');) ('(· 1'1,,1r rrl'OU'1 11;',f' .,. \""" ",'" -,t '::]-1' :;l'r ~ '-t'l ~~' rr)(j\r il' ,L_T lU (~.,. , ... (1,c1<~rd I C .- -" o;. •• ij,.":J 1..~(. ¥ ~. ' 1t.~ • • )J. L-(h '-I.. •• ~ - - ... L~'~ "" . _ ,_, _ J~ Cl. _

vi j:-s tile disht' i..Jlj; · ~', to c' ,) ;')C'.C~ ll "e GOclCl;Ud wa~3 Ilil1::.:hl·oorni n g a nyw a y with jUf;( the; · .s<'l~d;;Lc pro ;.,r;'.rn and l (~i sr:: tlss e cl at S ODle l ength the p.o~;~;jl)jJ .i1.y of "1)(1 \<:" :.0; :.1)(: : ;p~'(.; Lask group Ot.'. ~ t o ./\ lY1CS . -· It - see:rncd .." , i1;" ,, (>1 , L11ili (;r. , ' ('" '1'.,;. ,·(), ··, ; , \\,1-,c·)' t.'l,(l"'·l·l'~ill· ""(l -It <;, "+ , .j"J'P. -lT1G~ 0..4. oJ • __ .. . t . ' . ~.' -.... .. ' .', \ . ' . • ' • ,J .... J, • __ • j. l 4 J . '- .... l _ _ L.. \ .,.; ( l.. A :':-1.. I.; L .... " .' := ~

ti,c y lJ ( ~d a lot: of l. :af,l~,u}Hty aNi a ).01: of grU','! th ;-J n d .T. guess th ai;

was ;:d.lOlll t.he c~-:tt~' l t o'~ th,:; C()D\'c rSi1.b.O !l. N('>thi n~~ Cdi!lC of it, of CoU l.'::':(~ the n. \\'(; dic': proiJ-1o::c George .Low rir;ht t he n. I got

agu~crn .. ; l1t OD r1:ti" Then i~: \\I;eS a l ;-e L"li.cl' cl;_'. ·c ;:, H c l' 'Nebb be ca.n '1e /H]nll nir.,l.rator th;,.i. U,c: (h;("j~· .. i()n vIas D'1dJC to t,;o to Houston.

B: A :lCi that \va~) l .. , ,-ily .:.t.t ~.hc (.;ncoLl.rat;cll l cnt of Mr. Tboln as .

0: \'len, I W0Ll;.(! ::.:lU.! to !'.;;"y h er e t.h at I stayc cl so:r t of - - I k~pt a low profile (1J) 1.1' il.t cleC::-;iun.

13:

s: j\ncl 'wh 8. t \ V~~h1) did \VC1.S to put Dr .. Dryden i.n charge of a spcc.iaJ s :'.tc sclcc;(io!L ~~C~Uj) aJ'd the site ,;clection i e2.m r ef)Orted r.li rcciJ)' to · Mr. \','·,-,I.JiJ ;end \' h::.n I got, I W<tS gcHiJ'l g qui t e a. fey.,: c.1].1.<; rJ'()IT, Ivia :3!3:1c}IU.:.icl ts l ~('()pJc and ~o 011 that were fr jcncJ.s of f!1 e ]· \e:.J\llc dY:3 a nd of (:r,;l\l" ":C ·they knew I V,fa:..: t h r.rc and why w(,luld ll" it be <! good l-':L t; ;.t to Ilave :.'Jl thLi done in :tvf.ass a. chu E; C ~L s,

I.saH, "J. 'rn n ot :il-, \' 0:L'/cd in thi[; decision. You'H have to tail,. to Dr. Dryden <-'1' I'lLr. \-'v'" J.lD , II 2..m1 T n lade sure that it sLayed t hat ·wa. 'l,

Po: 1'1 at was a very Icr l unai:c s ituati on.

)' I

S; VII,.; did as ·,'·vt.l ~r,no\v sct up a sor t o f a me dic a l research activity at l\n1c:" wbich \'/ <".S a li!:t.1c bi. t a-n out~rowth of tr! C original think i ng I))':l ~l o n 'rnoving ~he 'Nhol <..: thi !'1g to An'8s. . ...

B: Vlell, th:-.Lt W"-~, aInlod an abortivc s ittl a.tion.

s: /dn10st , but \\ c! I th.:i. !1.k i t worked.

B: \Vh a t waD th e nanlC of thc f e llow {r orn CJ~veland w ho carne down to !:lead un , !Cl'O JTI cc1icc.l work?

s: INc; tricd vcry hard no'~ U) hav e it in eorr'?c tition with Brooks (the AI" lTIcdic(l.l center ), you know jn tbc Ai,;- Force , but to h ave

.\.,.t... > .

1/ I

it dojl\r~ IJlorc i\lnc> .. rncllt<11 \vork such as can 'Jou co.nc e ive of any ;/ fonn 0,0 life that c(.J'.lld E ve o n the plane t ?v:a)'!:'; and things of th?t sort.

,-_1-• •

' .

r­Ur. P ctgL' 1:,

D: Well, there arc! a cO\'!1)1e of other pcopL~ I'd IiI e to af~k you about.

s: We J.l , Jet's sec. tho r ecord ?

I )la'lCn ' ·c rncntj oncd P .b bott b.er.:~ have 1 o n

B : No, you h aven ' t D)cntioneCi ALcott or l~uth)"ock .

S: A ll right. Ess ./\bbott \,VC!S i Yl charge of what I lcl c a ll t h e NAC }\' labo r atories .

B : He succeeded e1.1!:; ero dey ,

S: That ' s rjg11t . So, in t h is ~cwnth!~: tin:w 1 :1all a cha.nce t o s ort oI rcv1ew wh<:lt vc \'.'e re (;o~.ng iU1d w:ith th e: exr" cr i~!.1 cc ltve Cllr eac1y rnentiol1eci i n connection ':in) n~(; l'\"/>,CA, I c'_,uJcl see that ih<:! l: e still wa sn't e~)Ouf.:h ayjonjc ',VOl'~·~ tl,at wen't: on (11. fL:::. resc:a l'ch .leveL Th e re wa:-.; (jllite ;\ bd ~'U:"FY on in cOnJ!(!cti o n \vitr{ JP L and the . . ' .. ' ,space Task Croup ;.L!lC: out lbcl'c at Goc1da::: d, iJ d l· }:s s ag J: cc d to set up ;:ll1. other o(fi.ce l' Cp (Htin2: to hinJ 1.;) c : cctroni.cr:, . I g l l es~3 we calle d it E J (~d roni(; s and CO'ltro1. and b:rOl'.;:;ht i t g u y n,;.,-n ed Al K!:: .1.ly in to ]l c,\cl it u p . ] ~ ~ s .'; was rc'~'~ ol1<lb l y ad'·' 1/Cl 1:) le aL t l,at point in d oing something lil< ,.~ t:1jS. Ih,f .. as tin:lC v.'r,~·,t cn, he ]'eally w<lsn1t L) ~) iDte ' t:s ted in t;or t of [,; l' owin!?, J. ncw · NAS/~ . Be was '.'cry rn\.ich of a nli nd t.o tl ink back to the old cL,y c; a~·l(! \,,1sh tbai: t hi l)fT S hac1n!t ch;1lJ['cc1 so much. The final ' conJl'Ont-Cltion c- lnc one tirne ' ~'!hcn he

':.>

L :tu a nlc c l jng of i..h G~3(, dircc f:ol':'> wbo repoJ' Lc d t o n1l~ and by t h eJ1 . \\Ie h ad il j' ,'a "t live '.'ii:r(; brain in (DrcJi!1Crd) J1,) l.rncc.; W },0 [an i"11C

nJ(~nn(;(l ~;p ~LCC {Jj[ll-it.. There v: ;}s Ess A!Jb oL"i: <irl( l .. ~eve J' a l ()th(~j ' s

t1 l(~ rc. 1\ ,d L\J.'ain!C' rJ \V;\s cnJ1"lPJ. ~lil1itlg abO\Jl sOI.r:e of t. he wor:';: goin g 011 a t ./\1·)H'; ' in C (1l 1IQ'<.l. i o':1 \,/ith ll) ZHHk!tL .fLg;lt. 'J'his was work lhat h;;d b e.~~n $t!Jf" g \·~ ll.cr· :. I.t(.: r/ ;., l()ll~ lh c line s 01: Ul<?' old r A.C.I\. kind of 1. tillf~ cllld r'}.""c)i.ncrcl !: :·tid; IIJouk, a!1yth i ngLh;.1!. 11;u, 1.0 do '.vith nl,,:nn e d ep·lce rEf~l, !: Is Iny l'(::-:1· iOll~3 i!.)i.lity in Chi s org<lni.z<.1 li on ;:llUJ I i nsi:, l t"lidt tL;LL r'innc: y nul 1:' :: 'pc-r,l out l11Cl'C Wi.t)'(IU1: rny approval. I I E tis j u s t got white as a shc.::ci. and called lnc tha1: n i::,ht and saic~ he guessed tlJ <t t hi s u se ruJ.nes ~; ','/;1S rcacll; ng an e nd, th a t he would like to retire. I told bill) th at jU[.; t b . .::cause Brai n erd ha.d f3ho L hi s rnouth off was no rcason L"01- hi n1 to l eave. That it w .::.s not truc t.hat Brai nerd h a d thi.s pmvcr of chsap ]Jrov;:cl or <l?pl'ova1 and, but Es s sai d no , he ld had about enoug:t and lIe w a'1terl to go back to i'le w Harnpsh i r e or V Cl'rn ont.

B: Yes, \. p in N(·w Eampshire.

S: A nd so h e dio l eave. L et t s see son~c of the other people D ee ·Wyatt cam.c in and ~le was working a s SOY't o f the pr o gram n1anage r·- cornptroJ.>~: l' kind of guy for Abe ,si1 VC'); stein . 'When I

! -.

1 '

j o i ned NASA I h ad a C ol. Don Heaton who Vlil .S sort o f my- e x ec. ...: ,,", .~ ......

B : Yes, I rClYl en\:"l C r Don very w e ll.

.1)1. ~(;;!11:;l 1 l~; 1-' ,};~ e 1 0

s: And lie \Vas a rood !Y: CI::'. He wO l";~ ecl hilrr~ and so on. I feli.-th ;'. t I lleeded )00)'C '~h.<"d1 sort 0i" r~-)y o\vn pr.:!l"S e,l1 ;:d, e xec. I felt that I n(;cclcc1 to hc:1.'i(~ .;1 b (: ~te r "lan(i l e on the, '.-;lh a. l: you ITJight calJ. the , pu r sc ~·; trir~,~;' I ,eV ~~ :::;C(; , 1 c(lok o n Ed COl' tl'ighi and Dill Fl c. nl.inr for 2, wh'i l c Lo v.'or1c direct' lv for me on siJccial ass i gnrnents.

B: Ii/here did Flerni.!le. c()n~c from?

s: He was \vi t h A b c.

B: That's ri ght, tno .

s: And, of course) Ed Cortri ,:'!,t had f::orn.c fl'0ccl. L e\vi.s and that \,; as VC1" y good for cole to LJ.ve i.' c! :ancc to [;el ~o l~J1oW t:,ose two fclJ.oVls. J [jJ":~'lJ.y ri. f' urr~ cl t h~"t 111?d to 2:ct: ~;c,rn':: hody with a l iLt.l.e n l orc C1Ul" i n Lhc Yt\)I~ I.'V c~~ l d ~I n rll})c p]'()gral" II,::Y!; ~.g end or thin 8f.~

S(J lh t2 !'-.: \".' ,\S O:l'.~ (~2. '! \.v"!le:-." .-- anrl I kcut Hl1(yh D "",,,d en il :~(HnJe d r·· • - :::! ,

of LlH s e th i n::.s . 1 [0\.1.1"".1 Lb:1L E:C>~') "(; or the i'Jl\Cl\ type s h;,rl a \'ic'y of goj;:g arou!lcl ttl l '1u~~.I) an-:-] s~lyi:l~!" 'lyO'J kl1ov.!, Bob 1);:I S suggcslc·cJ t.h is, \Ibat do you fhi:1k rtO(.ui. it? " It was pretty lrD!) :.)rtan t thr.lt ile !:;::tj, ':1 i.1iJ-l: il ' s a r,ro orl jc!~a and 1 r;Uppol't iL" So, l Id takcn tilat pre.~·<~lll.i()n, .:tnd ] WC!lf Z')'ou!!d to 1\b(; a!ld scljl) I ' d i.ike t o Lave De (: , Vy <" tt COlne ov\~l" <".IJCi -,vol'!.;: \'Iith rn <: ~)Cr)n~l n (:nUv . His £ac J:e:1Hy f (; ]; (,n t ~"ct ;,nc: 1 think he S:l.W al: that point t}-!ar 'N-:.' WCl"e going to rl :.'.vc 2. ull;ficd. call it, b'.lcl ;!,cL £0" all of tl1c ~·~/\Si. rath c r t h a!l sOPi.clhinr.; t~; \·;: w as e~·~scn~ialJy fragmented. And, Dee \VCtS g!"cat. He: a l w:->,y s ,V., s a SC1U;). ~"(; ~31100ter, 11ca.c1 lUI'ned rigl1t ' on properly and ju~:;t ;l l~rC(lt cHechve ? c rSOl1.

s: N OVI, tIl E:ggc r s vas toe bd ght br ash ki nd CI£ guy. I knew h im cCnyw ;iV. He d!,cJn ' t cor('c in inln1ecJiately into H(: a d qu;Jl'ters . I guess we br()lJ~~ht h i :," -- 1 can't. :rerncrnhc r the E:_'2.Ct. c jrcurn!:.~ tances 1.h;:11.

w e got him in - - I thiDY: Y\.'C b:::ought hirn in to wo r k \'vith .R 3.y Bisplinghoff in what was the old NACA kind of eff o rt.

D: Bispli.ngl1.of[~ :il1 effect, too1( l\brJot.t l s plClC ~~.

s: He took Abbott r s pl ace, Of course, lid knownRay at M I T and I ---felt h e ' d fit in beautifully witl] that kind of ope.raticn and he d i d.

B: VYe H , he's able and he ' s w~s c anu h e ' s p at ient ann gets a long with people.

s: And th e n 1\,1 hit if off well with Jim V,'c bh. Y ou know, they're both fa s t talkers an] so on and so at the tinlc ,r was JC <lvi ng N.t,\SA he was in Oll sort (:l the planning kind of t\i ng ' w i t.h Jim Webb .

B: Diu John Stack come up to Hc:adquartcrs i.;!"l,.jle you we r e 01cre?

/. j

.lJ"t'; {:j(; c.1 J 11an :3

s : W e t.ried t o gct hi;n, but he wouldn ' t corne , Or cUd. he C O nl.C?

B : Ye s, he tlid corne lOt· about s i x rnonths 01' so.

s: Yes , that ' s right ::tncl l ct ' s !~ CC how did th ;:lt \T.'ork out ';' We th ought it wou l (~ be good to get hirn to corne i l1 Cl11rl he- hJ.i:r~ cl like the devi l to J. e av'~ Cll~ hi s hurses a1'.(1 sil'..i[ down ther e at L,:.nelcy, But, be in effect S(l)·t of can1C .in and c;:tl1'lFecl out four o:~ · five day f' a v.'cek ~!.nd he s pent !iJc rest o[ t.he l:i~nc clown a t. La!1!!1(~f. I\ut,. i. ·_~t ' s s(~ e , we tri s: c1 to do s um c ihi:l g ab (J llt ~teron.D.uti cs, That ' s \ .... h .1.1: it: vcas, because t h e ol d p!.~nd\1b.ln::r.:l(lcl !;"!1.1n;; S() )"( ~ <:1 vily ~.!.\\';:'. y lrolll th<=. ()ld NACA kin d. o f w.ork , p ;~:rjjcuL.rl'] Y jn aCI:u!lcJ1.1I.ics, O\'(~ r i.n.i:o r3 .... 'i:tC C and. we Vlore g cHln[, i.ncJ"::a ,;ju ' ;J.y crj:~cjz v cJ and ri g!:tJy S,) for nuL do i n[:; OlU: JOG J.n .. :--. o· ") ~ ·'·'--1- ,. ~ c...' ,"\ I· I (... r: . .... -.. 1 I , T;-' /1 1\ .1 '" ~ ·r /. \ ~ ., ":;. . 1 - t" f \ , • . , 1, i , (y \ 1 <leI 1.".1 .1('-,> •. I~~ ... ' .:,ec., elle ~ _l..Ll. 1.1nl.,(.l • ·_ CU ."i.I.d. 'J \/t-ll. rnar,_ , l.,-:o <1.1. _

ldl'Jci!:l oJ n() j[·;c ~.; ~ : hiJt si.nce \ \ 'C: weren ' i; ;:,1)1c to do it GLllyt1WrC , they s h ould flu it and ;-· l l c:Je res c;" ;·C;~l ;.'.nd even S()lTH: o f p·1.lJ: rese2..l'ch labs like l.~tn f~ L.~ )· s hovid ;)',:' tl'2.n:~Jc J.'l'ed over to the,n ..

13 : J eeb wasn ' t b eycntl putting on a second sto r y t o his litt l e c ottage c:ith e 1".

s: So , tha t \vas a {;-lirly t.>:aun-latic l)e1'ioG." So , :L l; D.ess ' 1) pclr t: \'.' e w(:re ]:,~~: p ond i. n~~ 10 tllat a nd in part vIe t~loughi. j.t wac; a g o od i d ea . It didn ' t: \'lork o'..:~ t j'OO Wl.'!l. I-~c , John, '-'la S))'!. r e a:ly qu i,-L'.! cu L uu:: for oPC::r a. t.iIlP; in W·a s h lng l: o n . And, about. t:1ai.: h.rne he )Zct ar~ of-te l' [roln RCIJU LJ..i c.

D : Wdl, Jobn h;"ld broken hi [.; pic\ w ith Hugh Dry<..kn so m e yeal 's earlier. You 've d cmhUcs E IJeard tha t i;;!"ury.

~

13;1' Vve ll, J .i rnrny Doolittl.e -, - and this was l'igh t ;.!.ftc r J irnrny b':' c:.aPl(: Cha.i:l'l na 1 ;:,nr i he; io·:) it. ( ,Ve l' ::'n ' 56 11'01'n Jerry 1-Innsake r w 1)0 is O,"j i f'c r c c on.l aild both J e l' r ), h2.s told r:ne and so has Ji.n l CLYY' tl:Jat }·.lun s~lkc r

fe lt t bat he; could ~J. O!; ~Je ve).-y syrnpatheLi.c to a ll .tl.;;e~; :.; n ew fan[;1 .:-- d rni.ss iJ e and ~; pace ideas thai. wcre bejng thou~;ht of i.n those dayo;. j\~':d.

~.:o h e s teppe d .J.~,ide as Ch2.i. rrnan, a. Hhl)l! [0'1 he conl: ~ nl.led a." a. n, <:::11bcl' 'o f t he Conunittee , <\ns:l DQolittle too k CD. t.he chore. One of t.he fi!:"sL t h ings Jimnly (lid VIas to have a li ttle! coc:da.il a.nd dinner itl e Ciing '.'l.i.th the ?v1ilt Ames and the D i ll. \Voodwards and the Clo Wo o d s and Hut type of peop l e - - n ot the Abbotts a nd the Rhode s and t he Roth roc k s ; the nl.i dclJ.e !1:1anagerncrlt i f you will.. And, for r easons <::hat I do n! t )·(~ nl.en1bcr

Stack happened to :':"(! in 'Washington and so he W -LS inv.i.t e d al.o;~s too. J oh n who li ked tlle 1)l" cs scd g:.-ape on occasion g"Jt qt.~ i tc vo luble rmd s tarted telling Dryrl.cn wh;:>.t <l:l. old logic be was. Thi.s W2.. S in f ront of t hG: new Ch",irm;:>.n : '.ncl HUSh never quite [o~·g;:>.vc .11irn for that. So , th-cre was a n un})~\:rpy situalion. But , I ' m s uppo~e~d t o be aski ng YO"']' q1.~estion;" not tclL .. :·g you . . .

l ' ~J1' , Sc!~lIl);:"ns Pag'" 18

s: Tl'J at l s vcry inte:r0.sh!l;~. I never hc;-:,rd th:'d,. vV'e U, lci ' [~ see , who werc sornc of th ,~ o[-hc~.· :t)h,yC'l's O!l the Le a L'I.

JJ: Well there WilS RoLh.!.'ocl< and {'herc was Rhode.

Rhode wa ~~ our cLa1' in I')) ;).tcrial.f:;.

D: In s lruclure s

s: I n structures anll so on rind he bore up we ll, I think; ): r e rn em.ber t estify ing w i t h hiro in ' ()l ~)cJ'o }'~ a. Scn:J.t c! co:nrnittec. l"Ie came in .<oW I I rcn'iernbcl' -,., [1'oni; and ce:l1l:Cl' Cl..3 !:C1l' ;1S I ",,<,. s conccl' lH,d, wben th;:), t J fir ~' t ;v1c'l' cury ALlas .~,- nol on'_' of !.hc- nlan n ed, but 'one of the unnlcLnnccl Oll(~ S _ •• '..lnr;tvcJc<l and the qL:c::;~:i.()n \V2.~, what an (':! wby h "HJ tile J\t1.Z\::J sh' u c f:urc fallcd. This \Va~.; vcry crncial bCC2.:U ,:H.~ the Air Foret" under Bennie Sclll'icvcr, did not w<lnl (' 0 try a[;(J!'1 bcc,,;u~;c they were !30 afraid . Th ey s;l i d if anoLhc r or:.c failecl it would C "i st don;)!; on the \V'hole credibil ity of \)ur ':>tral:e:gi.c c! (:L C'l'l'eni:. So tll(:~r " /< ',~i ·l. cd to v:.::.;t 1JJ1hl a ""l ' ok J1~ ' W ./\.llas Wit:1l a th.icLcr s:,-in could. be built w'l1.!.ch \"' ould deb.y th e sp.:tC'c pro,:,r::lJJ.l lvl.crr.::u r y prvgrarn ab ~)ut c.~ ,/C0~', 'Nc didn't want to ]{;lve that delay 11\1t £::.1. c:,c S;;HllC ti 'ne we didn ' t \'/;.' )'(. to have another one bl ow up either . ::)0, th:i.~:, is where Rhode c a n."),-·~ i;L '\'I-e p u t :l:Lrn i n chci.l'ge of a special :;l'OUp l,." ;:nc.!.lyz.e the stl' uctt:}'a l pl'(;'bl clfl 2,ncl deter mine ;1.S

· 1.)(,os1: a s lu; co;,Lld W;" l ~ J1a J)pcncd on, Ul~ f.i'J'~t nne :,nd ' .\' )1<1 1. the !Jroh~\.bility was th a,t it would }) <lppen ag;:tili . . H i. s wCll'k leu i.e) i1. clec',si.c.:.'l whe l'(~ Joe C):;\ryk overrul ed U{'''; 1';ll.)C Scltricv8:r anc.l \r:c dicl gil o.hcad and l 'rn glad to [jay that Lllc thi.nG he ld LOgcUKl'. TllCn WC: WC 1'C in. a posi bon to g o with J ohn Clcnn.

l' , . J .

s: 'h:lt was wlH:n. ,,\Ie put Lilt: ring aronnd it. Thaf:!r, rip;h t . That 1fJ

ho\'.' 1. got. to k1' O'v'! liJwclc. n. uthrock '..'1as sort of .1:1 ;). planning nl ode ,.

13: He succeeded ll()nl(~}' Jue.

,s : He succeeded Horner Joe Stewart who wcn t bacl':, t o JPL., He 'I.vas n 1t really in t he san1C kind of pro f~l'am for that re3.~on. It was longe r r ange as, say , comp3.rcd to Abc and people like that. But I think he certainly did a good j ob.

B: H e was solid. He wasn 1 t terribly acivcntu l'es o !'X'le.

s: That ' 8 right.

B : I know this. I personally am vcry very proud of the 12 years tha t I sp e nt with th e NACA and thcn '.vi th the .space Ar:p.ncy . Tllat was a n extension of a one - :,'I'?:J. l' cO::''l:nitrnent, \-vhen I l eft' Be ll Aircraft to corne down and set u? .Pu~,; 1ic Information.

s: Of c ours~, the O :le gte>, w h o w a s an absolute Lower. of s t r'eng~h \Va.'l

Torrll'ny Tholnp ';o.'l.

B: Ohl yes .. yes .

s: H e was an anl :1 ~~ing guy t o rne b e cau r; e wben YOl1 first m eet him you r!l. j~; h t think \1\~ I S an old. hay s eed or s ometb ir:g .

In d eed. Inde e d.

s: I thi!lk he act. ed to £0 0 1 p e ople a. hale: bit so h e could get thei r In eaSt'. re 2. !1cl ::!'-.C l' \ '/;],1:C :1 O l.~ ~ : , you. lmow. Ve-::y a dapL.'..ble . At .L2~ng ley throuZl1 .:111 t:l :i. S pcd cJd ~; O ] · t of f,; t aye d in f roni: doi.ng Uw right ;, i ;1.(1 of t hing s :1 )) (1 t}lC .'1 oJ C() '..: ?.' :-; C ~)'. e J' ca l crunch C ~ll1\ C wh e n \ ':c had t he A po llo .. .; fir e . 'J ' }1 C (jucstiorl \va s \V~]O do \T/C 11Zt'f C \V}1 0 }1 ~l S t}le ;l b.i liiy aJ (1 t11C c l'ccl j b ili!.y to be r CSTY.) :lS i '); c f o r tha t. rc:vi e w. Tha t~; \vhcn wc put To lr' n l y j n to t J l:l. t v I.~ r y , c ry (1 j H i (; u lL j ob.

D: 1 h <1 d forgutten ~lbout w 1Ja t a. l r cmcnclo'U!3 job In: d id there. Thel: e a r e v e ry Ie'! peo p l (: that you c ould hav e picked \'Iho could have carried ill a i o j .L "

3 : H e j U ' ; f: 1 :ld ':'v~ryboby ' s re s pec t:. I nlcntionc-d Eel Cortright. .sODiC

of .1 .. hc )rO~l n g ' .. ·~ r g'\.l'y:.) _ .... f:d V.ri.15 0 !1(; of thCrYl _ ...... v..rho \vcre tra.incd a.t I le \vi s ~!.nd cal,-I e in a n d ]l~;cljob s (Abc llncloubt ,:, d J.y broug:1t j):i.rn in to he lp) but who lnuv C'd on a n d. w hen I \,/ ~S s till l~1c r c he ' d tal( c n on the who le really satc lJ-i l .; pr og rarn, rci.LJ.J y scicn ti fie p l'02.r a rn ~~ nd, of cours e, is no",' ru nn.i ng L a n g ley . He still )1 <15 g rowth potential. J. m e nti o Jl(,:c1 B ill Flarni)i;; . C(~ or g c L o \v, tJ 2 .. :-ne \T,:ay , C;:l !1:C in froln Lewis. Look a t what h e; p r)c Jl c d to 1J; Hl and. how we ll he ' s done.

13: W c: ll. I thi.nk ti lat Vannev:J.l' B ush ' s no Uon wa~~ just e x pandi n g the stai-ut.ory r o l e of th e NACA a lial e bi t. It wouldn ' t have worked bec a use you c Oltlliil l J. have att l: a c.Le c1 peop l e li ke Horner N e vrell and all of. the othel' v ery big and stron ~ people Lllal were broug ht i n i.o a n ew organizZI.ti.ol1. T hey didn't want to come in and be the d.i. s hwashs<,Xs for a n old NJ\.CA,

s: They wouldn't have corne in and some o 'r gani z<ltion would have had t o do \vb~t t!1e .. . the Country had to d o what w e di d , I tl1ink , If it ha,(lll i t bec;:"! the NASA, I gue ss the altel'nativc wc-uld have been 1:0 have the mDi La ry do it.

B: The Pres jdent, and I think for very sound re::,UJOns, didn ' t v,rant to have it give.n a miJit::)...ry cast.

s: And. having o c .:.- n here (a s Secretary of the A ir For c e ) for four yea.rs, I think that WOt~ld h a ve been a m.istake, not just r'or the re asons that he h ad in nlind , whi c h T think \v c re correct rea ~~ on~3 , but you really shouldn't have ElC Depa r l :-ncnt of Def.e n se doing that kind of cxploratol'Y work. We ' ve. g o t terribly di f,[i cult p r o b J. e ITls he J" '~ ' in d e v elopi ng F -15s

I

/ i

\

/ /

, .

and B .. L J a,r;.r] ~)1{ : ';' l[) 2nd ~.Tlisc;il,~s. 'J:lats ou::.' business a nd if you h aVC!l lt ."ol 2. Ini.lHary ol.'C'r<l.ticD<1L nceJ, J j ust don ' t Ul ink it s "-lise t o h::tve UJ (; DoD \'!O).';·~·~l'Jg on it. Its ju. ,.;L diverti.ng j'he nl fl'OlTI wha t t hey lJ\J~)Jt tu be d()j l~g , \'/c l re big C'no1 : r!,;1 an)"""';'l.)" we shouldn ' t take OJ) an~;thj D2 n,ore .

B: You lve got ,1 2, OOel ,vcodpi.~e to saw <" vay at.

s: I bring t]); .. '..i 1]P, I was (1own 3t the Air Un.ivl::; ' f'ity jn s t re ce n tly and J l:i l(c to ,(;0 ti( ~ \-:'':11 t})~'rc ~lt lc.:-'..st once'- a year C111d t z.t 11<: a n.d !l1.or.e

f un ~;b tl h ave Che' ': :',lc~~hol·l:~. One question. was \',Ih~,r does NASA h <ve thL ~:});:iCC ~)}ruttlc. 'J~b~ J)ol) Ot:.~.~lt to J)c 1. \",-! t }:,.:.\ .~j}) ;Jc c: slrntt l cll 1 said , \ve J1, L\ \,rO t~lir!.r~s :':\l'e \'/ .':O ~1~j \vitb. )rO"~lr ~trG\lrll(!J1tD Onc l it ' s n.)tlc}l

bclt(~]' to L,e C it (:(>I)e by ~\~I,,(:'!\, J<: ~)v''';:~ the C01.1;1l:l'y l1'll.lch rnore l.'lti tu dc for a D Linc1~J of b i iztf.(;.!.'::tl ;:l.l' r;ll1 .:~.crneJlt~; ",jtll otber. COlll1.tJ .. ies - d ~ 'l lJ· -,' ""1(' 'f I·'· 'n " ,,: .. ,.. ,·, · ,.r · ",. c- ' r· ,t';,,, ".-';, ,1. -r, tIc- ',1 <ll1 <u " " ,\.1., " C .. l .U .. " ;.L.., _. _> 1.1,. J11 Cl. l , ,'Cl_J. J '"'<. \.01 "\. , .u"l " Je .. lu

even jf Y',lU W<l!1f.ccl h:J :12ve it in the D C' J>,LrLu'cr:t o.f Defense , we '\I!()uldll ' i. jusLi[y L1:e cio.lL:.'Lrs. ','ole could 11''':'.'C1' [.;ct that pl- ogr~·ln1. app r o '!c(~.

B: As a windup \'/ (l1.·dd you care to tiay J 0 words each abo'J. t Je rry I-Ju l1s akcr , Hu[,;h Dryden .'1nd. Jin~my Doolit.Ue:?

s: .A U r .ight . 'J.'l;; .. t s ;i k1 '. f~h 2~; si r':nl"C'~lL -'{ou' TC tz~lkil)g about three big nlt"n. n 11;Ls l )C' (;n ju :::1; a gl'c:;tl: C'XVC]'iCECe f01: me: to have kn()w!) 2..11 U) r'2C of those; lTle]) v ::c'ry well ::mcl to worl-.. vcry c losely with Ilug;h via. j\JASA [0 '''' five: yc;:..:rr:;. iJc w3;·;. '·}.'hcl' 1 \'':<.1::3 thcrc wi th Jiln \'le :)b for Ch <lt J) (~l" j ocl or. til!'lC, Ite wa~; sort of thc ;:C'nio)' cili :::',cn , thc "sori: o f Ole ~;l';tbi.H;.>,jl1 i.~ (;:\cl.(Jl. W :i.Lh J;n:l '\V(~bb Jot:'} o( id('.<'ls tClj,ccd t o go off in qulte:t h ow r!i.Hr:l,:ld· c!il·C(:iions ~'nd I dilln 't rC;i.J1zv I1nbl ;.d~cl.' Hug h ' s .!c:aUI ho \-; ,nil: L !I (: hL:'d d",ne, he, HL1:~lt Dryden, t o no l, protect D'lC

fl ' O T', .Tjn) \.Ii ,:: h1), Lot ,t~)I)r; n. :3tabihz i n.'~ inHucnc(; foJ.' all the thi.n g:; thit : .. tU\SA ... vv'as do.i ':!; il.t ttl,i t linle . He was i1H! il)'nbn.: ll a . He \-vas the wl!H~ I n;:.n \I:ho y('~l w;.tn!.f',J 1.1) [0 to and discuuc-; tll.ings ,. but he ncver sort: 01 Lrie(2 t o ~:t ·..: 'p in (): l,.-l.c::r1 to cXl'l'ds(~ conl roL Hc rnade D'ly j ob viaLle.

Jinuny, of COUTSe:, ~he~:cI3 r..o !~an IHcp. hjrn. J ust a great l ead er' in anyU).t n g th at he docs , I think i:hcugh that he wa~; very upset a bout the \vay things C<11T1C oat 101' C16 dJ\C/;. and so for (iuite a wbi le , I re ally clidn ;t sec hirn, Se(~ tHu.dl of bL'f1. in the contc-xt of the .NASA . So, re ally what I h~ve to say about hi1l1 docsn I t l'cally re l a t e to NASA .

B: He was hurt too t hat tlw Space Council didn ' t a mount to anything. ";, You see, he was a l.!.1.en·lbcr of tha t. ,/

/

S: l id forgotten til<1.L Yes, that ' s true. Jerry l-Iunsaker I got to know b est in connectiol'l",itb the .Meteo!' pJ'oject l)CCa'lSe I ' was the chief engineer an(l he <VCl~, )\V!l.;:1( 'I.'las called Ch;tirnl.~m. (,f the M eteor C omrnittee a n d so I h ad to b:d. :;£ hi. _'1 <'..nd rc})o'rt to him. on r"'.ings t hat I got into, orgz:ni%ational 01' ~. ;lterdC'p:::.rtrncnta1. frictions a , .~d so. on a t M IT a nd h e

· -

Wo.S a past H).aster. at po ll:.i. c: ;·, of. i~('.Ltil1~; tllin~:s ;:-,pprOVe ':: ". n r:] s o on in a diHicu H scientific ~I.n r! cTI::,in c c: ring r·]lvir(lnn, e r'!. , Even when 1 went b ack fOU l' ye~lrs ago, he \V8S t;,C'1"1 gctti :lg clos r..: to 8u. r~ . . u. Ye s , he \ 'I a5 87 this year.

s: Yes, he was over 80 'cDen, 01::. Ee ' d corne c1 0 'Nlli cl r;lY ofIicc and h e ld 1;a.y, " In ~~ spc(' ch you ::;ave a c ou)le of days ago; ':-C0u Ullke .l ab out a sol a r Wi:ld. J:Jow c~",", t11.(·:::e poc; sib.ly :JC ~l. V,illrJ in 2. vacuu.n? " A n d., y ou kno'.v, quC:Li0.n~; li b.~ t hat. Theyi:;.'(; always gocc! qllestion s , I, of C OU l" ~J(~ } z:,.dll",i l' cd }. i: 'n {o J: hi~; ~: l" e nv.: n-J 0\1 S i nt·c1.li g ... )r. c(: a n d k n ow Jed g e wh e n I was t.r ave li n::' wi th h:)"n. ::-Je 'cl aJw?yr:, ;1" you ' r e (hi v ing a l ong i n a C1J: t.;l !'onr;}) 'L! '. ~.' r.lc:~ cTl , ;l.c ' d k~toW a)J. Lh<? cii[f'~ren t. klJ1tlS o f cac Li, an.d p,o by' <.In oil reJi.n'~T:~r, ,":1cl .1·lI::, ' d ! ·~no\'/ ~1l1 ~1.bl) ·. lt holV y o u r e fjnc: ojl , ane! ItO InattCl" whaf' it \,,,,1.8, he ' d 1:;l.c,>\v : 'l lo~ abc'...lt it. f iut w h cn it c;: \ rl1C to hi e'll t o ]oo !" h,yw,I]'d tJl~.n~3 ::; , h e \':;a[~r>'t i1.hVCLY ,; ., - I don 't Lhi n k he fo ref,~\w vy'ju t wz\s gU:il1:cr, te' h:tllPC!1 J.n ,j l):lcc. I thill'k 1) c hac'! .::t h ;: '.rd. t.i rne Gyaspj71 ~~ th" , t we we ~'C ~!.bou~ to go Llll"O-"12,h :t gl·cai:· Lransition.

B: r think it s un L.~ il t. o exp<:.c t nwn in 1heir 701~J and 80'ti to L e the d a ring yCJ'... l ng~; t cl'S on the f lying i:r .)pc~c .

$: I'll b uy that. Ee was the da:rinz y o \..!. n g !~ l ajl if'. Oh'~ e a r ly 19] 0 , J91S, in t.here . I·Ie ;,;ta .1"l~!d i.llL~ .fi1.;>t '·/: ~ !ld.·t~: :~acJ. i n t his cO\Jntry, I gucs s.

B: WelJ , not quHc!, ]"0.1: OIle of t he very iir,,; t one".

C. , ;;>,

p . . J,

j e1

H e wetS respo!1~;ib11.' faT one of the first one~3 :'~!ly "lay.

Du r and '.'i i'S <\ 1'11.'1. 11 (, 1' cne w lwn t hey rnadc h -i.rn l.'.e the h ead of that p l"(1 pn 1. :.,jl) n e() , ·J !." ,ii:l (: c.

if I; if

.' ' ..... ~ .

::" :;"