Klayman v Judicial Watch Miller Deposition Pt. 3

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16 correct?

17 A Correct.

18 Q "For Clarification Regarding Article 2 Legal

19 Fund and Larry Klayman." So, this -- you understood

20 this to be a clarification of Orly Taitz's e-mail

21 posting from three days earlier, correct?

22 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. I object to the

23 characterization of the language used by Orly Taitz. He

24 can certainly testify based on his understanding --

25 MR. KRESS: The call is coming from the court.

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Page 105

1 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay.

2 MR. KRESS: Oh, shoot. We can go off the

3 record for a second.

4

5 (Off the record.)

6

7 MR. KRESS: We can go back on the record.

8 We'll wait.

9 BY MR. KRESS:

10 Q Regardless of the characterization, the article

11 is entitled "Clarification Regarding Article 2 Legal

12 Fund and Larry Klayman," correct?13 A That's what it says, yes.

14 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. The document speaks

15 for itself.

16 BY MR. KRESS:

17 Q And in fact, if we look at page 3 of 12 now,

18 let's -- let's start under number 3. There's a line

19 there that says: "Response from" -- well, let's start

20 with the top at number 3.

21 "Mr. Klayman writes: 'You stated that

22 I had not done work on the project.'"

23 And it says there below:24 "Response from Orly: I simply posted

25 a link to the complaint filed by the Florida




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Page 106

1 Bar against Larry Klayman. Other" --

2 A I'm sorry. Where are you now? Where are you?

3 Q Paragraph 3.

4 A You are on page 3?

5 Q Page 3 of 12.

6 A Yeah.

7 Q And then towards the top, there's a heading for

8 number 3.

9 A Yes. "I have not done work on the project."

10 Q Right.

11 A Uhm-hum.

12 Q And below that, it says:

13 "Response from Orly: I simply

14 posted a link to the complaint filed by the

15 Florida Bar against attorney Klayman."

16 So there's -- isn't that indicating to you that

17 this information came from the Florida Bar and not from

18 Connie Ruffley?

19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Objection. The

20 document speaks for itself. The document speaks for

21 itself. Calls for speculation.

22 MR. KRESS: If we could just hold again because

23 we are getting a call.

24

25 (Pause in proceedings.)

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Page 107

1

2 MR. KRESS: Hello. Yes. Yes.

3 MR. KLAYMAN: Would you put it on speakerphone?

4 MR. KRESS: Yeah. I'm going to. Can I put you

5 on speaker phone? Okay. Thank you. All right.

6 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I just wanted you to know7 the judge is not back from lunch yet. Are you

8 requesting an emergency hearing today?

9 MR. KRESS: Yeah, because we have an ongoing

10 deposition, and if possible, we would like to get an

11 order on some objections.

12 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Okay. As soon as he

13 comes in, I will let him know you called and you're


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14 requesting an emergency hearing for today, and I will

15 let you know when he's in, okay?

16 MR. KRESS: Okay. Thank you.

17 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: And Mr. Kress, you

18 represent plaintiff or defendant?

19 MR. KRESS: Defendant.

20 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Defendant, okay. Thank

21 you.

22 MR. KRESS: Could the court reporter please

23 read back the last question? I forget where I was.

24

25 (Requested text read by the reporter.)




Page 108

1

2 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Calls for

3 speculation. Document speaks for itself.

4 BY MR. KRESS:

5 Q You can answer.

6 A That's what it says.

7 Q All right. And do you know whether that

8 information is truthful or untruthful?

9 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. He can't testify to

10 that. That calls for speculation. He didn't write11 this.

12 MR. KRESS: If he doesn't know, he can tell me.

13 THE WITNESS: All I know is what she said here.

14 I don't know if she really got it from there or not.

15 That's what she said.

16 BY MR. KRESS:

17 Q Okay. And she, being Orly Taitz, correct?

18 A Correct.


20 for itself.

21 BY MR. KRESS:22 Q All right. In your experience as a donor, do

23 sanctions against an attorney reflect negatively on the

24 attorney?

25 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. That's overly broad.

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Page 109

1 And vague. And irrelevant.

2 THE WITNESS: Am I supposed to answer this

3 vague and irrelevant question?

4 BY MR. KRESS:

5 Q You are.

6 A Well, normally, it would, which is why we delve

7 further to find the basis behind it, and I told you what

8 we found already. But, you know, presented as it is,

9 without the mitigating stuff, it looks very damaging,

10 doesn't it?

11 Q And you said you -- you researched it. Do you

12 know whether other people researched deeper in the

13 Florida Bar sanctions?

14 A I first became aware of it because other people

15 sent me the information.

16 Q Okay.

17 A As soon as Larry's name became public, we were

18 just deluged with information, both pro and con, with

19 people from all over the country; allies, enemies, and

20 in between.

21 Q All right. So, you got a lot of information

22 regarding Larry?

23 A A lot of data.

24 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Asked and answered.

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Page 110

1 information.

2 BY MR. KRESS:

3 Q A lot of data. And you were able to sort

4 through that?5 A Well, I think -- I think we were.

6 Q Okay. And if we look at paragraph 4 of

7 Exhibit 15, page 3 of 12, there's some -- I know that

8 Mr. Klayman does not like the way it was --

9 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait.

10 BY MR. KRESS:

11 Q I'll strike that and start again.


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12 If you could look at exhibit -- I'm sorry.

13 Paragraph 4, page 3 of 4, and just read it to yourself.

14 A Uhm, read it to myself. Okay. The one that

15 starts: "I read the first post"?

16 Q Yep.

17 A Uhm-hum. Yes, I read it.

18 Q Okay. Would you agree with me that this is

19 some effort at clarifying the prior comment regarding

20 conviction?


22 for itself.

23 BY MR. KRESS:

24 Q You are a potential donor reading this --

25 MR. KLAYMAN: Well, I want the thing read.




Page 111

1 Read it, George.

2 THE WITNESS: If I was a potential donor --

3 BY MR. KRESS:

4 Q Wait, wait, wait. Stop. This is -- this is my

5 questioning. If you want to ask him on cross, do it.

6 This is my questioning.

7 MR. KLAYMAN: It's vague and ambiguous.

8 MR. KRESS: Make your objection.9 MR. KLAYMAN: And I'm not sure what it is you

10 are referring to in 4.

11 MR. KRESS: Make an objection.

12 MR. KLAYMAN: It's an improper question.

13 George, take your time and read it first, and

14 then answer his question. Read it first, paragraph 4.

15 THE WITNESS: I'll read it again.

16 MR. KLAYMAN: To yourself. That's what I

17 wanted, is him to have the time to actually read it.

18 MR. KRESS: He just read did, but he can read

19 it again.20 MR. KLAYMAN: Nobody can read it that fast, not

21 even a speed reader.

22 THE WITNESS: Okay.

23 MR. KLAYMAN: Read the whole thing, the whole

24 paragraph.

25 THE WITNESS: I did.


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Merrill Corporation - New YorkPage 112

1 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. Thank you.

2 MR. KRESS: Can the court reporter, please,

3 read my last question back?

4

5 (Requested text read by the reporter.)

6

7 THE WITNESS: No.

8 BY MR. KRESS:

9 Q Okay. Fair enough.

10 Well, she does state in here that he was

11 convicted, correct? Or not convicted yet?

12 MR. KLAYMAN: Please read the entire --

13 MR. KRESS: Larry, I will ask the questions the

14 way I will ask the questions. I've been very tolerant

15 of you. I will ask the questions the way I want to ask

16 the questions.

17 MR. KLAYMAN: No, I've been very tolerant of

18 you because what you try to do is you try to -- you try

19 to pervert the meaning of what's -- or the written word

20 of what's in here. Just read him what was written here

21 and then ask him a question, that's all I'm asking for.

22 That's all I've been asking for three hours.23 MR. KRESS: We've only been here for two and --

24 MR. KLAYMAN: Whatever. Feels like three.

25 MR. KRESS: Feels like four to me.




Page 113

1 MR. KLAYMAN: Just read -- read what it is you2 want him to talk about rather than -- you are

3 mischaracterizing what was written.

4 BY MR. KRESS:

5 Q There's a phrase in there that says "he was not

6 convicted yet," correct?

7 A Correct.

8 MR. KLAYMAN: Read the phrase.


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9 BY MR. KRESS:

10 Q Thank you.

11 A I'll read the whole sentence.

12 "So there was an error. Mr. Klayman

13 was indicted in the state of Ohio."

14 MR. KRESS: Strike, strike.

15 BY MR. KRESS:

16 Q I am not asking you to read it. If you want me

17 to fight with you, if you want me to make this last all

18 day, we can.

19 A I don't really care how long this lasts.

20 That's not my problem.

21 Q I'm trying to do this efficiently. I'm trying

22 to conduct your deposition and trying to do it in good

23 faith. Let's just stick to the questions and the

24 answers.

25 This -- this -- this is appeared on the same




Page 114

1 website as the February 23, 2012, website, correct?

2 A The OrlyTaitzESQ.com website.

3 Q Yes. They appeared on the same website,

4 correct?

5 A Correct.6 Q All right. So, a reader finding the

7 February 23, 2012, uhm, posting would find the

8 February 26, 2012, posting, correct?

9 A Correct.

10 Q Thank you.

11 So, you first contacted Larry Klayman about

12 this Florida Obama Challenge in December of 2011.

13 You've told us that. And I'm just trying to set the

14 background. The retainer e-mail was sent by Larry

15 Klayman on February 8, 2012.

16 How much money had you raised by -- if any, by17 February 8, 2012?

18 MR. KLAYMAN: Calls for compound question.

19 THE WITNESS: I can't remember the exact amount

20 at that time. I didn't time phase the donations, but we

21 were getting a lot of money early on, and it kind of

22 took a plunge off a cliff toward the end of the month.

23 BY MR. KRESS:


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24 Q So, let me ask it -- I'm going to break this

25 down a lot as much as we can.


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Page 115

1 Had you raised any money to pay Larry Klayman

2 by February 8, 2012?

3 A Yes.

4 MR. KLAYMAN: February, what date?

5 BY MR. KRESS:

6 Q February 8, 2012.

7 A Yes, yes.

8 Q Do you know how much, either exactly or as a

9 ballpark?

10 A I don't remember. I know we had like a few

11 large donations up front. I think we actually raised

12 most of it before all this happened, and slowed down

13 quite a bit after that, but I don't remember the exact

14 time phasing, honestly.

15 Q When did you donate your thousand dollars?

16 A The date? I think it was before this.

17 Q Before February 8th?

18 A I can't -- I can get that information because

19 it would be in my check register if that's necessary.

20 Q Okay. All right. So, you don't really know21 exactly how much you raised by February 8th of 2012,

22 correct?

23 A I don't remember. I don't remember.

24 Q But you got -- you indicated that most of the

25 donations came in early, correct?




1 A Yes. They did, yes.

2 Q And how much -- how much in donations came in

3 between February 8th, 2012 and February 23, 2012?

4 A I don't remember.

5 Q Okay. Well, if we look at Exhibit 7, as of --

6 take your time to get there.


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7 A Okay.

8 Q And I'm referring to the top e-mail there. I'm

9 going to give Mr. Klayman a chance to get his copies in

10 front of him.

11 A Go ahead.

12 Q As of May 7, 2012, what had been paid was, for

13 sure, was 5,000 plus 3,300 plus 1,000 correct?

14 A That's what it says.

15 Q Okay. To be fair, it does say below that:

16 "An unknown amount was sent directly

17 from people given your address and bank number

18 while we were trying to get

19 ConstitutionalActionFund.com, Inc. started."

20 And you asked him how much he received

21 directly. Did he ever answer you?

22 A He said not much.

23 Q Okay. But as of May, you knew that $9,300 had

24 been raised for this Obama challenge?

25 A Correct.




Page 117

1 Q Is it fair for me to assume then or would it be

2 accurate to assume that some number less than $9,300 had

3 been raised before February 23, 2012?4 A That would be a --

5 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Calls for

6 speculation. Calls for speculation.

7 BY MR. KRESS:

8 Q If you answered, I couldn't hear you.

9 A Probably.

10 Q Okay. Do you know how much was raised between

11 February of 23, 2012 and May 7, 2012?

12 A No.

13 Q Did you or the group ever promise a specific

14 amount that would be raised for Larry Klayman?15 A We did say that we would raise the retainer and

16 pay expenses and then that we would pay $395 per hour

17 thereafter when we got past that threshold.

18 Q But in terms of a specific amount, whether that

19 was another $20,000 or hundred thousand dollars, never

20 made any specific reference?

21 A We knew it was by big number. We didn't know


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22 what it was at that point.

23 Q So, as of May 2012, May 7, 2012, you had raised

24 this $9,300. And Mr. Klayman was paid at least nine --

25 a total of $21,000, approximately. So it's fair to





Page 118

1 assume that somewhere between May 7, 2012, and the

2 conclusion of the representation, the group was able to

3 raise another approximately $12,000?

4 MR. KLAYMAN: Wait. Objection. Assumes facts

5 not testified to. He never testified to that.

6 MR. KRESS: He can tell me if it's wrong.

7 THE WITNESS: Well, since we gave him --

8 MR. KLAYMAN: Do you understand the question?

9 I don't.

10 THE WITNESS: -- the nine and we gave him more

11 than that afterwards, that would have to be

12 mathematically correct, yes.

13 BY MR. KRESS:

14 Q In other words, the difference between the

15 21,000 approximately and the 9,300 was raised subsequent

16 to May 7, 2012?

17 A It was. That's all we were able to find in

18 spite of the fact that we had a national publicity19 campaign going.

20 Q Okay. Your thousand dollars, is that accounted

21 for in this May 7, 2012, e-mail?

22 A I think so. Pretty sure I had.

23 Q Where?

24 A I'm pretty sure I had already denoted. I

25 didn't itemized the -- I just had payments. I didn't




Page 119

1 have itemization of the sources in this document.

2 Q Okay. Did it come -- was the --

3 MR. KRESS: Let's stop again because the call

4 is coming in from the court.


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5 Hello.

6 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: This is Brendan calling

7 from Judge O'Sullivan's chambers. I just wanted to let

8 you know that the clerks handle the schedules, and what

9 they came up with was if you guys want to try and call

10 back at 2:30, see if the judge is available, he was open

11 to that suggestion, but I guess that's the best he can

12 do right now.

13 MR. KRESS: Look, can I think about that and

14 call you back?

15 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Sure, that's fine.

16 MR. KRESS: What number is should I use to call

17 you back?

18 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: You know, with the judge,

19 (305) 923-5920.

20 MR. KRESS: Thank you.

21 MR. KLAYMAN: Can we go off the record for a

22 second?

23

24 (Off the record.)

25




Page 120

1 BY MR. KRESS:2 Q Before we went off the record, uhm, I had asked

3 you where your thousand-dollar contribution was

4 referenced in plaintiff's exhibit, I'm sorry, Exhibit 7.

5 I don't think you had a chance to answer that yet or

6 maybe you started to.

7 A I did not itemize the contributions. I merely

8 put the dates of the payments. So, at this -- at --

9 this particular letter does not show a specific

10 contribution from me or any other person.

11 Q Is your contribution, though, within the

12 dollars referenced in Exhibit 7?13 A Yeah. I'm pretty sure it is. Yes.

14 Q Okay. Did you contribute anything after May 7,

15 2012?

16 A I don't think so.

17 Q Why not?

18 A Well, we were pretty close to the hearing by

19 then, and I had limited means also because I have other


12/25

20 causes that I support besides this. I might have put

21 more in. If you are getting around to, did this inhibit

22 me? You know, it might have, I don't know.

23 Q Okay. And I believe you indicated that most of

24 the donations came in early or something to that effect.

25 That's what my notes say.




Page 121

1 Do you agree that most of the donations came in

2 early in the representation?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And what is your definition of "early" in this

5 context with respect to the donations?

6 A Early, before the contested times of late

7 February.

8 Q Okay. Were you aware that Mr. Klayman also

9 filed an Obama Challenge case in Alabama?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Did you have any involvement in that?

12 A Did I? Only in publicity, and I know some

13 people involved in the case. I know Virgil Goode, and I

14 also am familiar with some of the people that supported

15 it.

16 Q Virgil Goode? Did you a Goode?17 A Goode, yeah. G-O-O-D-E.

18 Q He is the plaintiff, a named plaintiff in the

19 Alabama case, correct?

20 A He was one of the plaintiffs, yeah. There were

21 two plaintiffs. The other name alludes me at the

22 moment.

23 Q Did you make any monetary contributions, either

24 individually or through any of your organizations, to

25 the Alabama Obama litigation?





Page 122

1 A No.

2 Q Do you know anyone who did?


13/25

3 A I can't remember specific amounts, but some

4 people said they were supporting it, but I don't have

5 detailed knowledge of who contributed, no.

6 Q Who do you recall saying they were going to

7 contribute to that Alabama case?

8 A I would rather not mention any names right now.

9 Q I'm sorry, but that's -- I understand you would

10 rather not, but I'm actually --

11 A I think Brian Riley, for example, was very

12 interested. That's one name that pops up of someone who

13 was very motivated about that case and actually knows

14 the -- the head of the Supreme Court in Alabama, Judge

15 Moore.

16 MR. KLAYMAN: Just answer the question,

17 Mr. Miller.

18 BY MR. KRESS:

19 Q Do you know how much Brian Riley contributed?

20 A I have no idea.

21 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Assumes facts not in.

22 It's not in evidence. He said he didn't know.

23 BY MR. KRESS:

24 Q Do you know anyone else who contributed to the

25 Obama litigation filed in Alabama by Larry Klayman?




1 A I do not have any detailed knowledge about

2 that.

3 Q Did you encourage people to contribute to the

4 Alabama Obama litigation filed by Mr. Klayman?

5 A Yes.

6 Q When was the Alabama Obama litigation filed?

7 A Oh, quite a while ago. I think it was in late

8 2011. This goes back -- it was over a year. I know it

9 took a year from the time it was filed, well over a year

10 to finally have the hearing, and that was done well11 after the election.

12 Q Do you know if the Alabama Obama litigation was

13 filed before or after the Florida Obama litigation?

14 A The Florida was filed in, I believe, January of

15 2012. I'm thinking that was before the Alabama case.

16 Q So, the Alabama case --

17 A Larry didn't get involved in that case


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18 initially. He came in later on, as I recall. Am I

19 right, Larry?

20 MR. KLAYMAN: I can't testify here contrary to

21 my esteemed counsel, who testifies sometimes.

22 MR. KRESS: I object to that comment, but.

23 BY MR. KRESS:

24 Q But just so I understand you, I think that what

25 you are saying is the Alabama litigation been filed




Page 124

1 before the Florida litigation, but that Larry did not

2 get on -- get involved in the Alabama litigation right

3 away?

4 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Compound question.

5 BY MR. KRESS:

6 Q Is that correct?

7 A That's my perception, yes.

8 Q Okay. Were you encouraging -- well, let me ask

9 it this way. To your knowledge, was Larry's first

10 involvement with an Obama litigation challenge the

11 Florida litigation?

12 A Excuse me? Was Larry's what?

13 Q To your knowledge, to your knowledge, was

14 Mr. Klayman's first involvement with the Obama15 litigation the Florida litigation?

16 A Well, they are all Obama litigations. The

17 Florida case was Obama litigation. The Alabama case was

18 also related to the eligibility on the ballot placement

19 of Obama.

20 Q Okay. I asked -- I asked the question wrong.

21 Which state did Larry become involved in first

22 if you know? Did he become involved first in Florida or

23 Alabama?

24 A I believe it was Alabama -- excuse me.

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Page 125


15/25

1 know, we were the ones that introduced him into the

2 eligibility movement and litigation. To the best of my

3 knowledge, but I can't speak for everything Larry did.

4 I don't know what he does. He's not accountable to me.

5 Q Did you contribute to -- I'm sorry.

6 Did you encourage people to contribute to the

7 Alabama litigation after Larry became involved?

8 A I've always encouraged people to contribute to

9 all of the eligibility cases.

10 Q Including the Alabama litigation after Larry

11 became involved?

12 A All cases. The question is, did they? My

13 commitment -- my commitment has not been diminished as a

14 result of this. Certainly been tried, but I've kept my

15 commitment up until today.

16 MR. KRESS: Okay. Are you going to have some

17 questions?

18 MR. KLAYMAN: I may. I have to take a break

19 and let you know.

20 MR. KRESS: Let's take a short break then.

21 I'll think about whether I have more questions.

22 MR. KLAYMAN: Are you done for the moment?

23 MR. KRESS: We can go off the record.

24





Page 126

1

2 BY MR. KRESS:

3 Q Mr. Miller, have you ever communicated with

4 anyone from Judicial Watch?

5 A Yes.

6 Q With whom?

7 A I can't remember the name of the person, but I

8 called Judicial Watch multiple times and also saw them9 at various events where they had booths, asking them if

10 they would represent us in the eligibility effort, and

11 they turned us down flat.

12 Q Okay. Have you had any other contacts with

13 Judicial Watch?

14 A I don't think so.

15 Q Okay. Was there a reason stated for turning


16/25

16 you down for the Obama cases?

17 A On one, I was told they didn't get into that

18 area. Another one --

19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Relevancy.

20 THE WITNESS: Okay. No, I wasn't.

21 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. Relevancy.

22 THE WITNESS: Just what I told you.

23 BY MR. KRESS:

24 Q I couldn't understand what you said, I'm sorry,

25 because Mr. Klayman was objecting.




Page 127

1 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection on relevancy.

2 BY MR. KRESS:

3 Q I'm sorry, I just couldn't hear you. What was

4 -- what was the reason, if any, stated for not accepting

5 the cases or helping with the cases?

6 A I've just been told it was irrelevant.

7 MR. KLAYMAN: You can respond. That's an

8 objection on the record.

9 THE WITNESS: Okay. Once, I was told that they

10 didn't get into that sort of thing, and the other times

11 I was not given a reason.

12 MR. KRESS: All right. Thank you. Those are13 all the questions I have for you for now.

14 MR. KLAYMAN: Okay. We are going to take a

15 5-minute break.

16


18

19 MR. KLAYMAN: Back on the record. We are going

20 to get into our cross-examination.


22

2324

25




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Page 128

1 CROSS-EXAMINATION

2

3 BY MR. KLAYMAN:

4 Q Okay. Mr. Miller.

5 A Yes. Can you hear me?

6 Q Yes.

7 A I'll turn your attention to Exhibit 14.

8 Q Okay. Turn to the section called "Comments,"

9 which is on page 4.

10 A Got it.

11 Q The first comment, Bloodless Coup, February 23,

12 2012, 7:20 a.m., can you read that?

13 A Yeah.

14 MR. KRESS: I'm going to object. The document

15 speak for itself.

16 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm actually asking him to read

17 it, Mr. Kress. I'm not mischaracterizing it. That's

18 the difference between my questioning.

19 MR. KRESS: I won't do it again. I was just

20 making a joke.

21 MR. KLAYMAN: All right. That's fine.

22 THE WITNESS: "I was initially excited about

23 Larry Klayman and helped the news about him to

24 go viral. Now I'm wondering about him and what

25 his true motives might be."





Page 129

1 BY MR. KLAYMAN:

2 Q Did you see that in and around the time it was

3 published on Mrs. Taitz's website?

4 A Yes.

5 Q And how did you take that to mean with regard

6 to potential donors at the time, if at all?7 MR. KRESS: Objection.

8 THE WITNESS: Donations from him at least would

9 dry up and other similar comments I heard from others

10 were the same basic sentiments.

11 BY MR. KLAYMAN:

12 Q Okay. Mrs. Taitz's website, how widely read is

13 it based on your experience and eligibility issues?


18/25

14 MR. KRESS: Objection. Form.

15 THE WITNESS: Most people who are involved in

16 the eligibility movement read it, and opponents read it.

17 It's been quoted extensively by both friends and

18 enemies. So, you know, it -- thousands and thousands of

19 people read that.

20 BY MR. KLAYMAN:

21 Q Can you explain for us the types of individuals

22 that are interested in eligibility and related issues

23 based on your experience dealing with these issues?

24 A Well, the core group would be the patriot

25 conservative community, who believe that Obama doesn't




Page 130

1 have any legal right to be present by virtue of the fact

2 that his father was a foreigner, which, according to

3 legal precedents and documents of the founders, say

4 should be excluded from the presidency. And in Article

5 II, section 1, clause 5 of the Constitution was written

6 with that in mind, but did not specifically call out

7 those requirements, which can only be gotten by looking

8 at legal precedents and founders' documents. So,

9 those --

10 MR. KRESS: I also would object.11 THE WITNESS: Excuse me?

12 MR. KRESS: Please continue. I didn't mean to

13 interrupt you.


15 MR. KRESS: But I do want to note an objection.

16 MR. KLAYMAN: That's fine.

17 MR. KRESS: I object to the extent any of this

18 is expert testimony because he has not been identified

19 as an expert.

20 MR. KLAYMAN: I asked him based on his

21 experience.22 BY MR. KLAYMAN:

23 Q Mr. Miller, with regard to the statements --

24 and I'll turn your attention again to Exhibit 14, page

25 2. Can you read the paragraph beginning: "Ms. Ruffley



19/25

GEORGE MILLER - 5/23/2014



Page 131

1 actually advised me that Larry Klayman"?

2 A Okay. "Ms. Ruffley actually advised me that

3 Larry Klayman is not licensed in California.

4 She told me he no longer works at the Judicial

5 Watch and that donors should know about

6 litigation in Ohio, where he was convicted just

7 recently of not paying a large amount in child

8 support. She provided a lot of other

9 information. I will publish only what is

10 public record. I am not publishing anything

11 that is not in the public record."

12 Q Now, the phrase, uhm, "Donors should know about

13 litigation in Ohio, where he was convicted just recently

14 of not paying large amount in child support," did you

15 take that to mean at the time that Ms. Ruffley was

16 referring to give that donors supporting Larry Klayman's

17 eligibility lawsuits --


19 BY MR. KLAYMAN:

20 Q -- and other legal matters?


22 THE WITNESS: Excuse me?

23 BY MR. KLAYMAN:

24 Q The statement that "donors should know about

25 litigation in Ohio where he was convicted just recentlyCase 1:13-cv-20610-CMA Document 127-1 Entered on FLSD Docket 05/27/2014 Page133 of243GEORGE MILLER - 5/23/2014



Page 132

1 of not paying large amount in child support" --

2 A Right.

3 Q -- did you take that to mean when you read it

4 -- did you take that to mean when you read it that5 Ms. Ruffley was telling Orly Taitz to give this to Larry

6 Klayman's donors for eligibility in other legal matters?

7 MR. KRESS: Objection. Form. Speculation.

8 You can answer.

9 THE WITNESS: It would seem to me that she's

10 cautioning donors to not donate to someone who has been

11 convicted of a crime, as she says. But that's -- that's


20/25

12 the reading I got from it anyway and other people that I

13 spoke to or corresponded with.

14 BY MR. KLAYMAN:

15 Q Now, of all the things that are said in the

16 context of this Exhibit 14, which do you consider to be

17 the most damning that Ms. Ruffley said about Larry

18 Klayman?


20 THE WITNESS: Well, the conviction. The

21 conviction is the worst thing because my understanding,

22 if the lawyer is convicted, he's not a lawyer anymore,

23 he get disbarred. So, that would be full stop on our

24 program if that was true. And if people perceived it to

25 be true, even if it was a lie, it would still dry up our




Page 133

1 donations, which would still stop the case. So my

2 question is, is she trying to stop this case? Or is she

3 doing this as a public service so donors won't waste

4 their money on a felon? You tell me.

5 BY MR. KLAYMAN:

6 Q Now, with regard to the $11,000 that you claim

7 or you testified were paid to Larry Klayman by your

8 group of individuals, who were raising money -- back up.9 You do remember testifying that $11,000 were

10 paid on top of the initial payment after the defamatory

11 statement, alleged defamatory statement was made,

12 correct?

13 A Yes.

14 MR. KRESS: I think he said 12.

15 THE WITNESS: Well, the total came to 21

16 something.

17 BY MR. KLAYMAN:

18 Q Okay. Now, how do you explain, if at all, that

19 you got $11,000 after the defamatory statement?20 A Well, we had ramped up --

21 Q After the alleged defamatory statement?


23 THE WITNESS: Okay to answer?

24 MR. KRESS: Yes.

25 THE WITNESS: Oh. Okay. I get caught in the


21/25




1 crossfire between you guys. We were ramping up a

2 national campaign. We expected six figures. So, 11,000

3 is chicken feed compared to what we thought we could

4 raise, in what was the highest visibility case, by the

5 highest visibility, most famous lawyer that was ever

6 brought into the eligibility movement. And we fell flat

7 on our faces. Thank you. 11,000.

8 BY MR. KLAYMAN:

9 Q Now, based on your understanding of an

10 indictment having been issued with regard to Larry

11 Klayman and child support, was it your understanding,

12 when you learned of that, that an indictment was

13 equivalent of being convicted?

14 A Well, I know the difference --


16 THE WITNESS: -- but a lot of people perceive

17 an indictment is tantamount to conviction; that the

18 state is always right, you know. So, an indictment is

19 very, very damning, let's face it, but a conviction,

20 that's -- that's ending. That's much worse. Everyone

21 knows that a conviction means that you are a felon at

22 that point. You are legally a felon. So that's a23 pretty big deal.

24 BY MR. KLAYMAN:

25 Q In this country, you are innocent until proven




Page 135

1 guilty?2 MR. KRESS: Objection. Form.

3 THE WITNESS: That's what the law says.

4 MR. KLAYMAN: I have no further questions.

5 MR. KRESS: I have just a few.

6

7

8


22/25

9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

10

11 BY MR. KRESS:

12 Q You -- you knew that Larry Klayman was not

13 disbarred, correct?

14 A Correct.

15 Q And you knew that he was licensed in Florida,

16 correct?

17 A Correct.

18 Q You probably didn't know this, but you are

19 assuming that the -- the child support charge was a

20 felony, correct?

21 A I thought initially, it was civil. I didn't

22 know it was a felony until afterward.

23 Q But you just -- in your testimony, you were

24 just referring to a felony, correct?

25 A Well, yes. I know that now. I didn't know




Page 136

1 that back then, as I told you earlier.

2 Q Well, would you be surprised to know that the

3 judge just ruled that it wasn't a felony?

4 MR. KLAYMAN: I'm going to object to that

5 because, in fact -- and we are going to be moving to6 correct the summary judgment -- it was a felony because

7 of the nonpayment of more than 26 weeks. There was an

8 error in that judgment. So I don't want you to put

9 words in his mouth.

10 MR. KRESS: I'm not putting word in his mouth.

11 It's words in my mouth.

12 MR. KLAYMAN: And that's a public record the

13 court can take judicial notice of, to correct the

14 summary judgment.

15 BY MR. KRESS:

16 Q Whatever it is, you are assuming it was a17 felony, correct?

18 A Now I am.

19 Q Okay. At the time, did you assume it was a

20 felony?

21 A No. At the time, I thought what was actually

22 happening was -- was civil. Until I saw this thing from

23 Ruffley, I had no clue there was a felony involved in


23/25

24 this thing.

25 Q At the time, you thought it was a felony rather




Page 137

1 than a misdemeanor, correct?

2 A At what time? Oh, on February 23rd?

3 Q Yes.

4 A All I knew is what I saw in Orly Taitz's blog,

5 which I often take with a grain of salt, but a lot of

6 people take as gospel.

7 Q Are you aware that Larry Klayman agreed to pay

8 an amount of child support to -- to settle the criminal

9 matter in April of 2012?

10 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. It's facts not

11 testified to. Again --

12 MR. KRESS: Please just let him answer. He can

13 answer.

14 MR. KLAYMAN: No, because it's improper. You

15 didn't lay a foundation, and it hasn't been testified

16 to. You are putting -- you are putting information in

17 front of him, which is not --

18 MR. KRESS: This is a discovery --

19 MR. KLAYMAN: -- which has not been developed.

20 MR. KRESS: This is a discovery deposition.21 MR. KLAYMAN: It's an improper question. I

22 object on the basis of improper question.

23 MR. KRESS: He can answer.

24 MR. KLAYMAN: This is done intentionally. It's

25 improper.




1 MR. KRESS: It's not improper. It's not

2 intentional. It's intentional in asking a question and

3 trying to conclude the deposition.

4 BY MR. KRESS:

5 Q Were you aware that Larry Klayman's indictment

6 was not dismissed until April of 2012?


24/25

7 A I don't know the exact date.

8 MR. KLAYMAN: Same objection.

9 BY MR. KRESS:

10 Q Okay. Were you aware that Mr. Klayman agreed

11 to pay child support -- pay back child support related

12 to the dismissal of the indictment?

13 A I know he had to pay something. I don't know

14 how much it was or whether it was brought current and

15 whether the amounts were in dispute. I don't know

16 anything about that.

17 Q Okay. Is there any other testimony you plan to

18 give at trial that you haven't already told us about?

19 MR. KLAYMAN: Objection. That's objectionable

20 testimony. He doesn't know what he's going to be asked.

21 MR. KRESS: Well, he can tell me.

22 MR. KLAYMAN: It's an objectionable question.

23 Totally objectionable.

24 MR. KRESS: You can answer. He can answer.

25 THE WITNESS: I don't intend to do any




Page 139

1 surprises based on just answering questions as they come

2 up. I don't have any ambushes planned or anything like

3 that. Do you?4 MR. KRESS: Not yet. I do not. I do not. I'm

5 trying to conclude this. I want to make sure we've

6 covered everything with you, and I want to make sure we

7 -- we -- we know what your testimony is going to be.

8 That's the purpose of the question.

9 Uhm, with that, I have no other questions. I

10 will -- I will raise any issues related to this

11 deposition with Judge Altonaga, but I think it will be

12 unreasonable to expect the magistrate to gather all this

13 information and issue any rulings on the deposition in a

14 few minutes.15 MR. KLAYMAN: The deposition is closed, but

16 just let the record reflect you had your opportunity to

17 have a hearing with the magistrate. And he said he was

18 available at 2:30. And with regard to the

19 attorney-client issues, your client's claimed attorney

20 client on their own without your even making the

21 objections, and he certainly is entitled to consult with


25/25

22 his counsel with regard to this deposition since, as I

23 stipulated and as he testified to, he's being

24 represented by me at this deposition. So, I don't

25 understand what the issue is in that regard, but you are





Page 140

1 free to do what you want. Deposition is closed.


3 MR. KRESS: Thank you.

4 --o0o--

5 (Deposition proceedings were

6 concluded at 10:48 a.m.)

7 --ooOoo--

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Klayman v Judicial Watch Miller Deposition Pt. 3

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