Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 4 JULY 1918

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

728 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Questio;os.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

THuRSDAY, 4 JuLY, 1918.

The SPEAKER (Hon. W. M<:>Cormack, Cairns) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clook.

QUESTIONS.

ADVANCES BY STATE SAYINGS BANK TO FARMERS AND SETTLERS.

Mr. ROBERTS (East Toowoomba) asked the Treasurer-

" 1. The number of advances granted to farmers and settlers by the State Savings Bank botween-(a) 1st January, 1918, and 31st March, 1918; (b) 31st March, 1918, ,tmd 1st July, 1918?

"2. The number of applications for <tdvanccq refused between-(a) 1st January and 31st March, 1918; (b) 31st March and 1st July, 1918?

"3. The aggregate amount granted in advances under the Act between 1st J an wary and 31st March, 1918, and 31st March and 1st July, 1918 ?"

The TREASURER (Hon. E. G. Theodore, Chillagoe) replied-

" 1. (a) 256 from Savings Bank funds, 65 under the Discharged Soldiers' Settle­ment Act of 1917, from funds provided by the Government; (b) 335 from Savings Bank funds, 65 under the Discharged Soldiers' Settlement Act of 1917, from funds provided by the Government.

"2. (a) 70 from Savings Bank funds, 12 under the Discharged Soldiers' Settle­ment Act of 1917; (b) 78 from Savings Bank funds. 16 under the Diocharged Soldiers' Settlement Act of 1917. In addition to the focegoing, requests for further adYances from persons who had alreadv been granted loans were refused -(a) 32 from Savings Bank funds; (b) 52 from Savings Bank funds, 1 under the Discharged Soldiers' SPttlement Act of 1917.

"3. (a) £61.827 from Savings Bank funds. £18,783 from funds provided by the Government under the Dis<'harged SoldiPrs' Settlement Act of 1917; (b) £80 663 from Savings Bank funds, £20 603 from funds provided by the Go­vernment under th<' D;scharged Soldiers' Settlement Act of 1917."

PORT ALMA RAILWAY LINE.

Mr. CARTER (Port Curtis) asked the Secretary for Railways.-

"1. What is the loss per annum to the department on the Port Alma line since the repeal of the guarantee Act, on the carriage of goods at the rate of 5s. per ton in lieu of ordinary rates?

"2. What per cent. is the Port Alma line paying per annum?

" 3. Is there an embargo on products from the Central West passing Rock­hampton to Gladstone or Brisbane and not to Port Alma; and, if so, how much per ton?"

Questions. (4 JULY.] Purchase of Sugar. 729

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. J. A. Fihelly, Paddington) replied-

" 1. Year 1916, £3,304; year 1917, £3.678.

" 2. Year 1916, 9s. 9d. ; year 1917, nil. "3. Yes. Schedule II., Bv-law 88

.applies to goods generally. Schedule ITA: applies to goods passing Rockhampton. The diffe~ence in the rates varies from 1 to 41 per cent., accordin"' to distance ,;roods are carried." b

OCCUPATION LICENSES IN CUNNAMT;LLA DISTRICT.

Mr. MORGAN (Jfurilla) asked the Secre­tm·y for Public Lands.-

"1. ·Are the conditions set out in t·he ;woclamation appearing in the 'Govern­ment Gazette,' page 1422 (1918), opening land for settlement under occupaFon license at Cunnamulla on 15th ,Tulv 1918 t~e u~ual conditions upon which ;,~upa: tlon hcenses are now offered?

"2. Under what section of the Land Act are such conditions authorised?

"3. ~re persons likely to take up occun<1t10n licenses under the conditions spe?ified for payment for improvements, seemg that the licenses can be determined without notice?

" 4. Is not such opening proclamation the first of its kind in the Cunnamulla district?"

The RECRFT ARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS fHon. J. H. Coyne, Warrego) repliPd-

" 1. Yes, the usual conditions in similar cases.

"2. The twenty-one days' determina­tion clause was inserted so as to allow selectors to enter into occupation of the b nd with as little ·delay as possible. The clause providing for the occupation licensee paying for improvements or mak­in<r satisfadory arrangements with the ownn for their use was inserted on the grounds of equity.

"3. Lands opened for occupation liccn··e under similar conditions to the above hav0 been readily taken up in the Cunna"llulla <1nd other districts.

"4. No; see answer to No. 3."

HARVEY FRUIT FLY 'I'RAP AND LURE.

:Mr. ELPHINSTONE ( Oxley) asked the Secretary for Agricultur'l and Stock-

" 1. Is he mindful of the fact that the season is rapidly approaching when the :ravages o.f the fruit fly will again be come senous]y apparent amongst our orchards?

""2. Does he intend acqmrmg the patent rights in the Harvey Fruit Fly Trap and Lure?

"3. If not, what other steps does he propose taking to protect the orchards from this pest ? "

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE AND STOCK (Hon. W. Lennon, H erbert) replied-

" 1. Yes. " 2. 'I'he owner of the patent rights

referred to has not yet notified his desire to sell.

" 3. The matter is under considera· tion.''

INFORMAL LEASES IN MOOLOOLAH DISTRIOT. Mr. SIZER ("lundah), in the absenefl of

Mr. Warren, asked the Secretary for Public Lands-

" 1. Is he aware that a number of informal leases of blocks of land, each 20 perches in area, bllt unde'ined as to boundaries, have been granted bv his department in respect of lands a·djacent to high-water mark in the Mooloolah district?

"2. Were such leases granted with his approval?

" 3. For what reason were the ~ bove lease'! granted, and under what terms and conditions?

"4. Is he aware that some of the pur­chasers of informal leases had erected dwelling-houses upon the land since leased to them, beforE) the land was opened by the department for occupa­tion?

" 5. Is it the policy of his depart­ment to grant leases of land whereof the boundaries have not been defined?"

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS replied-

" 1. Yes; informal leases were sub­mitted to auction,

"2. Yes. " 3. To provide boatshed and temporary

seaside residenee sites for which there wa;; a demand in the district. 'I'erms and conditions of the leas<"s-Rent is payable yearly in advance. 'I'he amount is the sum bid at the sa 1 e, and the lowest and highe't successful bids were £1 and £2 2s. 6d. respectively. The leases are determinable on ninety days' notiC'e on either side, or automatically by non-pay­ment of the annual rent. No compensa­tion whatsoever is payable by the Crown on dl"termination.

"4. Yes. " 5. Yes; if circumstances suggest that

exact clefinition of the boundaries of the leases by survey is not necessary."

PETITION. BRISBANE TRAMWAY LEGISLATION.

Mr. KIRW AN (Brisbane); I beg to pre­sent a petition from a number of share­holders in the Brisbane Electric Tramway Investment Company, Limited. T)le ~ubject­matter is a summary of the ob1ectwns of the petitioners to certain legislation which is foreshadowed. It ie r<'9pectfully worded, and concludes with the usual prayer. I beg to move that it be now read.

Question put and passed. Petition read and received.

PAPER.

The following paper, laid on the table, was ordered to be printed :-

"Regulation 65, dated 14th June, 1918, under the provisions of the Slaugh­tering Act of 1898."

PURCHASE OF SUGAR.

On the motion of Mr. SMITH (Mackay), it was formally resolved-

" That there be laid upon the table of this House a copy of the agroerr.ent between the Prime Minister of the

Mr. Stnith.]

730 Gambling DPvices for [ASSEMBLY.] Rai6ing Money.

Commonwealth and the Queensland Go­vernment relating to the purchase of all sugar produced in this State; also 11opies of all correspondence between the respec­tive Governments dealing with thP said purchase."

VALUATION OF LAND BILL.

THIRD READING.

On the motion of the TREASURER, this Bill, r"Jad a third time, was ordered to be transmitted to the Legislative Council for their concurrence by message in the usual form.

GAMBLING DEVICES FOR RAISING MONEY.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE ( Oxley), in moving­" That, in the opinion of this House,

" 1. The use of gambling devices for the purpose of raising funds in connection with patriotic and other efforts is demora]ising, more especially to the younger members of thE' com­munity.

"2. That the practice of granting permits for the use of such devices should be immediately discontinued, and the provisions of the law in rela­tion to gambling more rigidly en­forced,"

said: At the outset I should like to state I have no desire to make this a party motion in any degree, because I have every reason to think that the opinions to which I intend giving expression will be shared in their entirety by the gentlemen occupying the b!)nches opposite. I should also like it to be understood that this is not a diatribe on the question of gambling; it simply refer• to gambling as applied to patriotic move­ments, and also to the securing or procura­tion of party funds.

Mr. SMITH : Did you not take an active part in tht' France's Day business, and paid for it, when such practices were carried on?

Mr. ELPHINSTONE : It seems to me so important to have a proper conception of the true position that I think I should give a brief statement of the history of gambling as applied to patriotic movement£ in this State from its inception.

Mr. WHirFORD: Start with the Stock Exchange.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: And I should like to say that my reason for moving this motion is, that when I addressed certain questions, on the 12th June, to the Assistant Minister for Justice, his answers were such as to lead me to believe that he did not under­stand what was taking place, or did not wish to. Now, the first Allies City was held in Albert Square, when the whole of the procec<ls were given to the patriotic ftw<l, and thcl ~taU~ took approximaJ8ly :£7.800, and Eh(' gambling :£400. I particu­larly call attention to those figures, be<'ause they show the small interest taken in gambling in the early stages, and the entire revolution that has taken place since regard­ing gambling, and its effects on patriotic movements. '!.'he city was then tran;;ferred to the Botanic Gar<lens, when all takings, less expen.oes, were given to the patriotic fund. The takings then were ha'£ stalls and half gambling, showing precisely that

[Mr. Smith.

gambling here has been the rh<lans of rais .. ing half the revenuE) derive<l from that par· ticular fair. The Repatriation Committee then assumPd control of the city, which was loaned to them, and it travelled through certain towns in Queensland, all the pro­C<'eds going to the repatriation fund, less expenses. '!.'he Federal Government then took charge of all repatriation matters, and one of their regulations, fortunately, was that no appeal was to be madq for funds. 'I'he Allies City was, therefore, not required for patriOtiC purposes, and a Mr. Salt offered the committee :£400 for the bui:dings and plant, which were eventually sold to him for £425. I have takPn considerable trouble to get th1s information as accurate as pos­sible. I do not vouch for every figure I mention being accurate, but it is as approxl­wate as possible. The . Labour organisa.· tion then, for Liberty .Fair pu~pos!"s, paid £50 per week for t~e hue ~f th1s mty, p)us 25 per cent. of certam gamblmg games whwh the proprietors agreed to put in. The Assist­ant Minister for JuBtiee issued a permit for this to be held, conditionally on no per­centage of the games going to the pro· prietor. I muet corumenJ the late As;;istant Minister for Justice for his action in that matter. ThiS con<lition was not adhered to, and the proprietor still received his 25 per cent. of the games. which was hidden by the fact of his taking his percentage out of the immediate takings before they were handed over. l would lay stress on this point, be­cause it is a very important one. Here ·we are told on all sides that the ~roePeds of these fairs are given for patriotw purposes or for other purpose" which are Jefined, but no mention is made whatever as to the huge nercentage which a certain coterie of men are receiving for the use or the loan of that plant, and in this particular instance, where the Assistant Minister for Justice issued a permit which made it a con<lition that no proceeds of the gambling were to be paid to the proprietor, that condition was overcome by the proprietor takin<; his per­centage before the rnom•y was hande<l over to the authorities.

ThP. SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Very im­proper.

M;·. ELPHINSTO~E: Now, the same Liberh- Fair ran a game called "politic~," about 'which I shall have something to say later on. And here is an important point on which I wish to lav stress: This par· ticular game of "politics" was not suffi. ciently productive from the point of view of the proprietors. The suggestion is that there were certain leakages in connection with it which prevented the total takings going into the hands of those running the fair. Consequently, on the sixth day this was changed to "get·rich-quickly," about which it was thought there were other moon8 of checking the sums received. (Laughter.) Certain members on the opposite side may laugh, but it seem, to me that this is a question that dC'serves the consideration of the House in its entirety and not of this pa·ty only. On the last day of. this "get­rich-quickly" game £210 in t1ckets was handed out to the person in charge, and it is a matter for regret to know that it was an officer of the Chief Secretary's Depart­ment who was in charge of that game. Those tickets amounted to :£210, and I under· stand that there were :£4 worth of prizes for everv £5 worth of tickets sol<l, so that the people had £4 of prizes and £1 went to thL

Gctmbling Devices for [4 JULY.} Raising j'l-[oney. 731

proprietor or those running the ahow. At the end of the day the £210 worth of tickets had all been sold with the exception of about £10, but there was only about £100 of ca;,h in exchange for the £210 of tickets. I am particularly sure of my facts in this connection, or I would not -dare to make the statements I am making at the present moment, and the reason I say this is that because of these games being run illegally it puts into the hands of those conducting them the opportunity to acquire money illegally also. If the conductors and pro­prietors are running them against the law. it also puts into the hands of those con-duct­ing them an opportunity to acquire money dishonestly also. All through the history of these gambling movements for patriotic and other purposes there has been no check on th.:.takings, and there have bPen innumerable instances where it has been shown that the total proree-cls have not been han-ded over to the proprietors.

The PREMIER : Who was the officei· you referred to ?

Mr. EI~PHINSTONE : I do not intend to use names in this discussion, becau''e I -do not think it is necessary, but I am quite prepared to give the name to the Premier if he asks me.

The PREMIER : He ought to be here.

Mr. ELPHil\!STONE: I am quite pre­pared to -cliscucs it with the Premier. On the following week the city was run for raising funds for creating a Labour club, the basis of remuneration to the proprietors being 50 per cent. of thB gambling takings. I shall have more criticism to offer of these various sc('tio11~ as we go on, and I shall just run through this brief 6Ummary I have before me first. The city was then run two da0s for Mrs. Ryan's Beerburrum settlement, an-d ten days for the Mackay relief fun-d, under the supervision of the mayor of South Brisbane-40 per cent. of gambiing takings-an-d it is somewhat appalling in my ju-dgment to know that of the fun-ds which were collected for that lHackay relief fund no less than 40 per cent. of the gambling proceeds went to the pro­prietors. The city next went to Toowoomba, and here we cast off all question of raising money for patriotic objects and come to raising money for party purposes. The city was tranqferred to Toowoomba. where the Liberty F'lir ,,·as conducted again on a 50 per cent, basis of the gambling takings for the proprietors.

My object in giving this summary is to show .clear!:· and conclusively that. whereas there may have been some reason and excu~e for permitting ga·nbling in conne·tion with

our patriotic movements in the [4 p.m,l enrly stages, the u·.e of gambling

for patriotic purposes has gradu­ally disappertred. and we are now in the position of p~rmitting this gamb:ing to create ~tnd establish funds for party purposes. I should now like to call attention to ques­tion No, 1, wh.ch I addressed to the Assis­tant Minister for Justice some two or three weeks ago. The question I asked was this-

" Is he e1ware that, in connoc6on vvith the Ri ing Sun City recently held in Albert Sqnare, Brisbane, the proprietors of the lmildings and plant received 30 per cent. of the gambling takings in ex­change for the use of such plant, etc.,

and that such total gambling taking;; amounted to between £5,000 and £6,000. equal to approximately 90 per CBnt. of the total takings of the city i"

The answer which the Minister gave to me was as follows:-

" No ; but, as the permit for the Rising Sun City was granted to Lieutenant Grant Hanlon, general organiser for the Retumed Sailors and Soldiers' Day, and the proceed;; were in aid of the Queens­land Branch of the Returned Sailors and Sol-diers' Imperial League of Australia, it is assumed the intere;;if; of the I'e­turned sai:urs and soldiers have been safeguarded by the applicant."

That is entirely wide of the mark. I am not raising in this discussion, nor do I 1Yish to raise, any matter appertaining to, or as"oci­atcd at all with, the soldiers and sailoro. lviy rf'ason in a~ldng that que":Jtion 'vas to ascertain if the :Minister was 1h ware of the fact that 30 per cent. of those takings v;hich were being rai,ed from the patriotically inclined people of Brisban··, were being devoted to a coterie of men who were run­ning gambling dens--there is no other '•,ord for it-for the purpose of raising funds ille­gally. ThB figures with l'l'garcl to that Rising Sun City, I regret, I am not able to give officially, as I have not bLen ab:e to ;,ecure them; but I can give fi!"ures wl.ich are approximately correct, and which will give an indication as to the rc.aJ proce.ds in connection with th~tt Rising- Sun City. The total takings were approximately £6,300. The stalls, refreshment booths, and side haws were responsible for £450 out o: that amount.

Mr. KIRWA;)l: How long did it run?

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: It ran for a fort­night. The gambling takings in connection with that were £5,850, and the proprietors received approximately £1,600 for the loan of the plant. What makes me feel so bitter regarding thi' matter is that certain rela­tives and friends of mine-and, I have no doubt, of many hon. members here-were engaged in -talls around this Rising Sun City, offering their services for nothing, and se:ling articles for the benefit of those soldi<~rs and sailors. To all intents and pur­poses It was a W<'ll-con-clucted city, but inside, away from th•'· public eye, where no vne could see, no less than 90 per cent. of the takingo were obtained by practices and games which, in the ordinary sense of the term, are totally ilkt;al. It seems to me to be a thousand pitiP·' that we should cloak our patriotic movements with an exterior of voluntary aid and voluntary assistance, whereas inside it is full of all kin-ds of dr,viN's to get from the unwary money which they have a desire to -double or treble, as the case may be. Now, I desire to call atten­tion to question No, 2. which I wddn'c-\cd to thE' Assistant Minister for Justice. I asked him-

" Does he consider that such methods of raising money and paying rent for the plant, etc,, and thr- permitting of such gambling- are conducive to the best in­terests of the community an-d an encour­agement to those who are patrioti<,a.lly inclined?"

His answer was this-" As there are at present in opern.

tion so many ways of raising money for patriotic purposes, it is difficult to say

ivfr. Elphinstone.]

732 Gambling Devices for [ASSEMBLY.] Raising 1Vloney.

which is conducive to the best interests of the community and an encouragement to thos0 patriotically inclined."

Now, in opening my remarks, I stated that there may be a certain amount of excuse for eng<tging in these gambling propositions if the total proceeds were given to the pur­pose for which the city or fair is being held. But when it ie made a practice to al'ow a certain eoterie of men in this city to get rich quickly-as most assuredly they arc--at the expense of the patriotically inclined, in my opinion it is a very serious state of affa-~s. In my opinion, in these days it is the spirit or sacrifice that we want to encourage and not the spir;t which permits a pereon to put a shilling into a gambling proposition, with the i-dPa or intention of getting 10;. cut of it. It ceems to me to be the most distressing feature about it. (Government interject'ons.) I have stated my desire to make this a non-pan:: question, but it is exceeding diffi0ult, listening to the interjee:­tions of hon. gc·ntlernen opposite. The motion will show if they arc honestly interested in this qunstion of the moral welfare of the community. Another thing I would like to call attention to is this: All three who care to watch these proecedings can see that those mrn who arc gambling inclined simply haunt the''" booths and are able to break the law with impunity; whereas we have the example of almost at the same time a raid being made upon a so-called gambling den in Elizabeth street, and Yery heavy ·fines im­posed foe r]ning behind close.d doors what is done publicly in Albert Square under tho permission an<!. sanction of the Assistant Ministt•r for J mtice. Just in passing. I would like to make this remark: that when such things ar o discovered as those which were discover<>d in Elizabeth street it seems to me it is high time that those gentlemen who are the proprietors of that build'ng­and who, no doubt. secure enhanced rePts by n>ason o' gambling being allowed-should also be brougnt to book when a prooecution

,of this sort is made. Another question that I would like to ask ;n all sincerity is: How c:tn we expect benrfit tu accrue to the pat­riotic movements which we are sunposcd to benefit b.v these fetes and 'airs, if it is at the exp<:nsf' of the moral welfare of our com­munity? It seems to me to be an absurd position, and a most impossible result to expect.

Mr. H~RTLEY: \Vhy should you dr-aw three month,' salary from it?

Mr. ELPHINSTO::\'E: When the hon. gentleman has finished I will resume. You -cannot speak when there is a fog-horn blow­ing. T wru:d just like now to refer to the speech which the Attorney-General. the Hon. T. ,J. Byrnes, made o" the second reading of the Suppression of Gambling Bill, wh'ch can be found at page 160 of " Hansard," in the year J 895. I refer to this because it Bhows e"'<octly what the Attorney-General thon had in hi' mind when he was intmducing this Suppres<ion of Gambling Bill. He says-

" In gambling, as we understand it, the <'lcm<'nt of speculation enters, as it enters into all cummercial tran,actions and almo't all the transactions of life; but what is meant by gamb:ing in th;s Bill is something very different. It is a speculation, but speculation of a sort that opens up f1 feverish temptation to people to enrich t.hemselves at a bound,

[Mr. Elphinstone.

never thinking for one moment that by their own self-enrichment they have paupcrised and impoverished the rest of the community. Gan,bling in that sense is aimed at in this Bill. The other mat­ters spoken of colloquially and jocularly. of c01use, find no place here; but that gambling which is understood to mean the habit of wagering or betting in various forms is what the Bill attempts to supprees. not so much hoping to cure people of the habit as to remove from them the temptation of indulging in a bad habit and remove from the com­munity generally the indulgence in this vice.''

:'>Jow, if one reads those opinions of the Hon. Mr. Byrnes at the time of introducing the SupprP,•sion of Gambling Bill, one can see that we are at the present moment per­mitting gambling in exactly the manner which he attempted to overcome when he introduced that Bill, and we are gradually drifting back-unfortunately, with the con­currence of the pres<>nt Department of Jus­tice-to th~t state of aff~irs which brought about the introduct;on of that Bill so many vears ago. I do suggest th~at this matter be treated as a non-party issue, because it is the welfare of thP community that is at stake. This side of the House does not wish to take to itself the credit of calling the attention of hon. merr.bers oppmite to the state ·of offairs that exists at the present moment. We are sincere in our ·desire to make this a matter for the whole Chamber, and not for this side of the House only. Now, question No. 3, which I addressed to the Assistant Minister for Justice, was as follows:-

"Is it a fad that these same pro­prietors have hir<>d oe>t their plant, etc., to the ' Liberty Loan ' organisers on the basis of 40 per cent. or 50 per cent. of the gambling taking-s to raise money for Labour organisation purposes?"

He gave the answer, "I have no knowledge of this." During _you1· absence. Mr Speaker, there was introduced into this House the expression " a terminological inexactitude," b:.· the hon. member for Kurilpa.

Mr. BERTRAM: It is not quite original, you know.

Mr_ ELPHI~S'l'O~E : It sems to me that that is an expression which might very aptly be a pp lied to the Assistant Mi:'ister f?r Justice. He must have known, If he did dutv to his office, and was responsible for the· affairs of his department. that t):le Liberty Fair was taking th!'£e fatrs throughout the country, and was paying the proprietors of the plant 50 per cent. of the gambling takings for the use of such plant. It is regrettable, in my opinion, that the Minister "as eo oblivious to his duty that he pleade'd entire ignorance of what is :;-P­parent to one who cares to go abou~ wtth his eyes and ears open. I now wtsh to refer to a question which the hon. member for Burnett asked the Assistant Minister for Justice on 19th June. The question was as follows:-

" Does he consider it just that forty­three men should be arrested in a quiet room in Brisbane on Saturday for play­ing games of chance. when the same games were being played by- sanction on the same evening at Maryborough for Labour political funds?"

Garnbli11g Devices for [4 JULY.] Raising Money. 733

Now, listen to the evasive answer of the Assistant Minister for Justice-

" I understand that the forty-three men referred to were arrested for play­ing the game of ' two-up' on S<tturday evening last. I am not aware that the game of ' two-up ' was being played at J\IIaryborough on the same evening."

Probably not, but he was aware that on that same evening games-probably very much more reprehensible than the game of " two­up"- were being played for the purpose of augmenting his own party's funds. To give an evasive a,nswer to a question like that is a gross evasion of his duty.

Mr. WHITFORD: You have somt' experience of "twowup," have you?

Mr. ELPHI"JSTOl\fE: The Assistant Min­ister for J ustico also, when answering a question regarding what transpired at Mary­borough, said that 50 per cent. of the tak­ings were being given to charity, and 50 per cc·nt. "as given to the local workers' political organisation. The real state of affairs was th~t the total gambling takings were first halved. and the proprietors of the show toGk their 50 per cent., the remain­ing 50 per cent. then being divided between the local workers' political organis::ttion and the loca:l charities. So hi·' answer was in­correct. Instc::td of the loco I workers' politi­cal organisation and the charities receiving 50 per cent. each, thev only rOC<lived 25 per cent. It is common" talk, to anyone who cares to listen to what is said about this matter, that this coterie of men who are running this plant are acquiring a fortune in a v9ry rapid way. It seems to me to be a most repreheusibh' thing that that sort of affairs should exist, particularly when it is done largely under the cloak of patriotism. It is surprising to me that a paper of the standing of the " Da.ily Standard," with which I have no quarrel, should resort to such means. in allowing men to take 50 per cent. of the gambling taking , with the object of giving them a further 50 per cent.

J\'fr. WHI1'FORD: What does the "Courier" take?

Mr. ELPHil\fSTO~E : The next question I wish to ask is this : I have heard, since I entered Parliament, "-11 enormous number of references to the wav in. which the Nat'on;d porty is raising its funds. I have heard all kinds of inferences and sugg-estions made that the National party's funds have been raised improperly, and so forth. It seems to me that nothing- which the National prrrty has done, or could possibly do, would be in keepirg with the method of raising funds b:· this mc.·ms-that is, by pocketing funds for party purposes while, at the same time, permitting gambling of the extreme nature which we see about us at the pre­sent moment. I would ask the Premier and everv Min'ster who is responsible for con­ducting affairs at the present mow.ent, to visit some of thc"e places to see the women and cloildren round these dens, and to see the effect it is having upon the rising gene­ration. I ask him if. in his opinion, that is not a matter that he, as Premier. should take drast'c step" to prevent. )J ow, the next question I asked is this-

" Is it a fact that, in spite of the refusal of the mavor of Toowoomba to grant permission 'for such a gambling

fair to be held, he was. overrid~e':' by the department of the Assistant Mmister for Justice, and the fair wn,s held?"

His answer was as follows :-" While it is not the funct'on of the

mayor of Toowoomha to either gra_nt or refuse permission to conduct a fair, no protest was, to mv knowledge, made by the mayor of Toowoomba to the holding of this fair:'

Now that is totally and absolutely incorrect. I ha~e before me an extr3ct from the " Too­woomba Chronicle" of the 14th June, and this is what it says-

" Jt was ascertained from the council authorities yesterday that despite the assertion of the AHistant Minister, it is the function of the city council, acrord­ing to its by-laws, to either grant or re­fuse .,_ license for any entertamment or amu-.ement ht'ld in the open air or in a tent or annvhere dse. That the con­trollin"" ali:thorities of the fair had groato~ knov:IE;dge o!' this point than the Assist• nt 11Im,ter t.s borne out by the fact that before the fair was held the civic authorit'rs at Toowoo:nb~ had a visit from Messr''· Hugh Black .and Cuthbert Butler, M.L.A."

Possihlv his aRsociation with this movemer;t accounts for the prolonged ab ence from this House of the hon. member for Lockyer.

]VIr. PETERSOX : You are a cad to say that.

Mr. Por,LOCK: He is ill.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: If the hon. member for Lockyer is ill, I willingly withdraw. that statement. All along he hns b~en ae<oCJ•ted with the Liberty Fair, but if he is ill I withdraw that stater.nent.

" 1lr. Black has for some considerable time been associated with such fairs and allies cities, and would, of course. h0 in a position to know the prc;cedure. Theso two g-entlemen, represo_nbng- the IJromoters of the fair, interviewed ~he mayor of Toowoomba (Dr. '!'· .A. Prtce) and requested, verbally, permtsswn for the holding of the fair. The mayor st,ted vesterda,- that he verb1lly re'used per­mio3ion if there were to bn any of tha grosser forms of gamb'i':g carried on there a.s were usuallv ns~ociotPd w·th such fairs. The ' get-rich-quick ' devicPs were instancfld by the mayor. That -v.-as the last the maYor hoard of the m' tter from the promot;rs, but later he was rung up bv the Under Se"retary for the Home Department on the matter, to wh<;m ~he mayor statPd that he !1od no <'bjcctr~m whatever to the holdmg of the f~1r, provided the gross~r f:r "~ of g1-''!bh';'-g \vcre cut out. ' and,. sard h,rs wo:r~h1~, ,, I was assured that this wouln be don".

That is thn very depart "ent which the Assistant Minister for Justice said knew nothing about the matter.

" This was the last the mayor heard of the matter officially. but how much the forms of gambling vc.e~e cut out !s known to anyone who vr~1trd the fatr during its two weeks' stay m_ ~oowoo!':'ba at show time. Several ga'1lblmg devrces were in full swing during the whole of the time the fair was in Toowoomba, and it was the ru1e rather than the exception that while the stalls were only

Mr. Elphinstone.]

734 Gambling Devic~s for [ASSEMBLY.] Raising ~Money.

mcderately-somdimcs poorly-patron­ISed, good business was done at all times at th0 gambling section of the fair.

" The Ji1inister's contention that the council has no jurisdiction on the matter i" somewhat remarkqble, and a,s the m a,\ or remarked yesterday. if this is so ·shy w it that two gentlemen repre­senting the promoters--one a Labour M.L .. \.-coug-ht pormi si on frmn the ''ouneil for the holding of the fair?

" It would b<• intcrr·,tino- therefore to know who caused the de~ision of th~ mayor-a decision backed up by a special corrnnit!0e mcoting of the whole council -to bG oV<'rriden and the civic authori­., ;,, of Toowoomba to be snubb0d in the wanner that has been done."

Th£'r<' is an emph~tic pnswer to the fourth quec-' :un which I asked the Assistant Minister ior Ju .. ticH. I repeat it is regrettable when hr,n. · ""'''1bers on this side want information for lP .. itirnate purposes that the que..,tion is ~~v1,c' :,~\ _ir~ ~he ~va ,'· rny _questions to t~he Assis­t:1n::, .._\unn:f.T Ior ~Ju,trcc were evaded. As~ 5uuin; th'lt tho National Political Council \\'ere so rf~du"~~d in their finance': that they had to go to ih i'remier or Minister fo.r .Justic-- and ask for permi .... ion to run gambl­ing 'haws. I o•:onder whether the A'sistant }1in;stn for J mtice would grant them per­;·.is .. ion to run them for thBir party funds. I aJ"l afr :id that it is a kind of monopoly for ~('ambling for the purpose of raising party fund•. I am glad to ens that the party I have the honour to belong to has no desire VJ participate in gambling shows of that kiP.rl T 1.1:n11ld Ek~ tc IY:.~l-:::8 ~:. fc·v~v· i-c:u.J.axk;:, ""far as the Lib~rty F:'.ir a .. t \Yarwick is con­{'erner1. I a1n go1ng- to quote an extract frorn the "·w,, .. ,., i1.-k Examiner" of the 26th June. 'Thi .. pan' .;r "J '1 was put in by the local Workers' Polit:cal Organisation. This is wbd it e,-, cs-

" \Ve ask you in return to show your apprecia-tion by liberally supp~crting Liberty Fair, whjch is open every evening at 7.30 with amus0ments for young and old. (;heap fanc;v goods and drapery. fruit. lolliPJ and refresbments are all obtainable at the carnival. Don't fail to pay us a visit and see Pbaros, tbe humtn torch. in his dare-devil fire slide. Remember it is free to all. The organisa­tion is also arraneing benefits for the Red Cross Society, the hospital. the ambubnce. rnd tbe town band, and new attractions will be staged eacb e;ening."

The pocition was just the sa.me as that at Mar;vborough and all the other places. Fifty pf'r cent. of the takings went to the pro­pridor of the show and 50 per cent. to the local Workers' Political Organisation. In mv opinion, it was a grossly unfair propo­sition to allow the proprietor to take 50 per ""·nt. ( f the takingF. I propose to read one or two extracts from a private letter whicb I 'received from a prominent citizen in War­wick in regard to this matter. This is what he saJ.b·

The PRE1!IER : Is it a private letter?

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: Yes. He says-" Liberty Fair tents, etc., came bere

from Ma1·yborougb, and it was given to me as O.K. that no consignment notes came witb it. That would indicate that it camp rail frE'e; or perbaps rail charge would be paid out of some general fund.

[Mr. Elphinstone.

" The Workers' Political Organisation here is paying £20 ground re";t fer two weeks, and gamblmg is the cbiC_f attrac­tion; in faC't. it stands on 1ts own. Around the tables are eligibles, boys, and gir1s. There is the under and. over 7, yankee invoat, spinning jenny 1 etc., all games that arc odds in favour of the runner. and all that have lonR since been prohibited on racecourses. The influence of thM.e on the ri.;;ing generation is ':ery bad indPcd, especially in cour:try districts. ' Get-rich-quick,' I thought, was st?ppe_d at the _'\_!lie' Citv, but in I,iberty Fa1r it IS present und0r ·2nother guiB· , Thore is n large calico sign w·ith name-s of St<tte Labour m<>mbers prirotcd thm·eon. Oppo­'•ih each i< " nu::1ber. Tickets are sold and the holder of a winninr: number, according to tbe calico sign, gets a cash prizo."

T. J. Iha1's number is 10s. (Lav.gbt..er.) I am gll .. d to knoc• th,,,t thB hon. gE'ntlema_n i" held in m1eh higb e,teom. Tben there. Js a big- drop b .. tw,-en the value of the P_remrer and "the 'alne of the l\Enister for Railways. Rvan'•, number is 10s., wbile the other "\Tinister~ are qur.tHl at fro'"' 4s. to 5s. (Renewed lr. ughtcr.) It does noi show which Minder~ are 4,. and whi, ~ _5s .. I >-hould like to know where the distmctJOn comes in.

3.h. SJ, BR: \Yh t \vas the value of the bon. :aH 1nber for Brisbr.ne?

Mr. ELPHINSTO::'IIE, I am sorry to say that all tbe other Labou!" mE'mbers were valued at ls. cacb. (Loud laughter.) The writer of this letter further says-

" It is particularly noticce ble that the moderate member· of the party ''.re wortb only a ' bob.' Over all this p;amhling sho·w. at thP Borner of the allotment, floats the Union ,Jack! Raffling ''ls~ proceeds. Above the Labour me;nbers nn,H''' appears tbis in lar.r-c letters.: ' .. A .. dvertisf'lna.nia.' ' The Garr:e of Poh­tics.' 'Pick your FRvo~nfP:' . ~he 'York' i~~' Politic:.l Organi:3at1o~ 1s grv~ng a touch of charity to the fa~r- h,avmg offered 33k per cent. of two mghts tak· ings to be divided between the ho•p1tal, band. ambulance, "''cl Red Crosr. Nationalists arc ignorinr; the sho\v."

I bave received a furtber letter from which I should like to read a few extracts.

Mr. HARTLEY: Who signed that letter which you just rea,d.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE : I am quite pre­pared to hand the letter over to tbe Premier, and let him see it.

Mr. HARTLEY: I rise to .a point of order. The bon. member has just read a private letter, but he bas no_t stated who signe-d it. Under the Standmg Orders I ask that the letter be placed on the table of tbe House.

The SPEAKER: I would point out to the hon. rr,ember for Oxley that, if ?e quo.tes a private letter, he must make It availa-ble to the House.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE : I am quite pre­pared to let tbe Premier see tbe letter.

The SPEAKER : Tbe bon. gentleman must make the letter available ,to all mem­bers of the House. The Premier bas no more rights bere than any other member has got.

Gambling Devices for [4 JULY.] Raising 1~ioney. 735

Mr. ELPHINSTONE : I was going to -quote extracts from another letter, but, under the circumstances, I will not do so. I just want to make a few statements regarding this wonderful Liberty Fair <as applied to Rockhampton. It was also run at Roek­harr.pton for a week for the benefit of the Anzac cott<'~es. _\t the outset the F( deral ;mthorities rcfu ed to give permission for ' HY gamb1ing. That was started under th0 impre,sion t1iat there vould be no gambling in+rnduc'd. but ~o'no ·clavs later gan1blin~r was started, and the inference was~ that all the money raised was to go tow:>rds the Anzac cottages. That was a very desirable thing ind,~ed. Instead of that it was found out that the money was being raist•d for Labour party purposes. I think I arn quit._• right 5:; ~aying 1 ~11t tb0 " Daily Standard" bonefHed very con<iderably from this event. I wish h ref r .ow to the subject of fw AnzPA:> cottages. I am pleased to see that the Minister for Lands is here, because I know he is sincerely and honestly interestod in this movement, tmd I would like to call his attention to this fact. As hon. members know, there is a Go'den Casket art union being conducted in Queen street at the present time, the proceeds of which are to be used for the purpo~e of raising funds for the Am:w cottages. I think I -am right in say­ing that the Minister for Lands is the presi­<l.ent of that particular move1r.cnt. I notice th 1.t there is a certain gentleman in charge of the Golden Casket business who is re­ceiving no kss a sum than .£8 a week, while in the office immediately above the shop where the Golden Casket art union is con­<l.ucted there is -a returned soldiers' office which could find men just as capable, and probably more so than this particular gentle­man is, for running the Golden Casket. In addition to receiving this .£8 a week, I maY say that this gentleman has already go"t another business in town, and he is fre­quently absent from Brisbane looking after thee liberty fairs and the get-rich-quick busi­ness. He evidently wants to get rich quick himself.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS: Wh~t were you getting when you were looking aft,,r l,'ranco's Day.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: I don't think that has got anything to -do with it. I am quite prepared to meet the Minister for Lands at -any time outside and tell him all about rr.y connootion with that movement.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I would be very glad to meet you anywhere.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: Very well, after I have finished my remarks I will tell vou. I was pointing out that the gentleman who receives .£8 for running the Golden Casket is always absent from town, and I think that a returned soldier would be pleased to run the business for two-thirds of that salary. The gentleman I refer to travels round the country organising liberty fairs, and raising funds for the party opposite. That is a matter which should receive the serious con­sideratiC>n of the Minister for Lands. <i will be exceedingly disappointed in my opinion of him if he does not take some action in the matter. I may point out that a member of the Justice Department has been in charge of the "under and over 7" businc-'s in connection with these liberty fairs, and has been conducting that business for sorr.e time. It seems to me that that is degrading the whole reputation of our public officers when this zn<:t of thing is allowed to continue.

Some little while ago the Brisbane Church Federation requested the Attorney-General to receive a deputation, and they received a reply that the matter would be considered; but that was the last they heard of it. l think the Premier might have treated that deputation in a somewhat different way. I do not think that I can be considerod to be a "wowser," but I say that these people are deserving of our rE>,pect, and if they ask to see the Premier and wish to place their views before him as I am doing now, then he should meet them.

Tho PREMIER: When was the request made to me to meet that body? I had one deputation.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE : The letter which was sent to me was dated the 17th June, and it stated-

" Some time ago we requested the Attorney-General to receive a deputa­tion on the subject, and received a re­ply that the rr.attor would be considered; but that was the last Wtl h&ard of it."

The PREMIER : I rec&ived a deputation from the Anglican Church Synod on the sub­ject, and they probably covered the same ground.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: Probably this is a different body.

Hon. W. H. BARNES: The Church Federa­tion represents all bodies.

Mr. ELPHINSTOl'\E: In closing my re­marks, it seems to me that this question is divided into three main parts. One is : Is gambling permissible in patriotic move­ments? I am not going to express any defi­nite opinion on that quection, ex~pt to say that som'' kind of control must be mtroducod i E the morals of our younger generation are :wt going to be seriously interfered with. The next question is: Is it right that un­lawful acts should be permitted by which to raise funds for Labour papere, etc.? That

seems to uo to be the most seri­[4.30 p.m.] ous question. I contend that the

Assistant Minister for Justice cannot refuse anyone a permit for gambling for any purpose whatever at the present time if he is consistent. If he permits gambling in or-der 'to raise money for Lab­our purposes and Labour newspapers, to be con'i,,tont he cannot under any cir­cumstances refuse to issue a permit for gambling of any sort whatever to any person. I contend that that absolutely kills and nulli­fie' the present regulations which restrict gambling. and that is the view I put before the Assistant Minister for Justice, so that he may consider the direction we are driYing towards, and see the nooessity of introducing some control in regard to this threatening deb!tcle which is imminent at the pre<ent moment. The next question I ask is this: Should a syndic:tte of men be allowed to accumulate fortun<>s with the consent and crgnisance of the Department of Justice out of the patriotic intentions of people who are ignorant of the devious metho-ds employed? That is the position at the present moment. People who desire to assist in thf'''e move­ments financially go and spend their money, little knowing that, in most cases, 50 per cent. of what they pay in goes into the pockets of men who, by their actions, show that they have no interest whatever in patriotism, or in the movements which require this finan­cial support. It seems to me that that is probably the worst question of all, and I do urge that this question is not allowod to

Mr. Elphinstone.]

736 Gambling Devices for [ASE'El\'IBLY.] Raising Mon<'Y·

drift and to drop, but that it be taken up seriously, and with an honest intention to cut out this cancer which is gradually creep­ing into our community.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear, hear !

Mr: MORG~N: I hav~ very much plea­sure 111 :~~condmg the motion so ably moved by the hon. member for Oxley. I think we arc gratified at the great amount of trouble he has gone to in order to obtain the infor­mat:on which he has placed before the House. I feel sure the Premier and the Justice De­partment will be pleastd with the informa­ti~n which has _been supplied, so that any­thmg wrong whrch has occurred in the past r~ay be. rectified, and, if poss!ble, the gamb­ling evil prevented or curtailed in such a manner as not to leave it, as it is at the prcs2nt moment, an inducement to the young people of Queensland to become a race of gamblers. I am one of those who feel cer· tain that it is impossible to suppress gamb­ling altogether. Life is a gamble. On~ hon. member -aid that t_he. Stock Exchange should be supprcc;cd, as rt IS a gamble, and there are gambles m every business. No matter what business a man may be in, it is a ga'l'!ble, more or les;; but, unfortunately, durmg the pa year or two the present Government have allowed this gambling to take place openly, so that children can take part in the different gambles oc{)urring in the main streets of Brisbane and other large town<:;.

The 8E0 RETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS; You prefer to have them do it secretly.

Mr. ::>iQRG.i\N; N_o;. although, from another pomt of vww, It rs much pi'eferable thc<,t men ehculd meet together in a gambling den. I prefer to see them meet together in a gambling den and gamble rather than to sec a number of little children at the dif­ferent gatherings putting their money in an "under and over 7," the "wheel of for­tunc," "Yankee sweat," and numerous other games which have been suppressed on the racecuur es of. Au~tralia for many years. As far ccs gamblmg rs concerned, I have taken p~rt in all sorts of _gambling, and I do not ;;rsh to \~aye the Impr!'ssion that I am a·

wowser m that respect. I know exactly what hn s occurred so far as " two-up " is c?nf"'rned, and also in connection with gamb­lmg generally, and if I feel inclined to put a pound or two on a racehorse I will do so when I think it is likely to win. (Lauo-h­t~T.) ?ut that i_s not the point. In conn~c­tron w:th gamblmg. I notice that the Crimi­nal Code, sect=on 234, dealing with lotteries roads as follows :- '

"Any person ,;,ho opens, keeps, or uses any place for carrying on a lottery of any kind whatever is guilty of a mis­demeanour, and is liable to imprison­ment with hard labour for three years.

" The term ' lottery ' includes any scheme or _de:icP. _for the sale, gift, dis­posal: or dl'tnbutwn of any property de­pend ng upnn or to be determined by lot o•· ~hance, w_hether by the throwing or ea bng of d1ce, or the drawing of tickets, cards, lots, numbers, or figures, or by means of a wheel or trained ani­mal. or oth~nvise howsoever.

"This section does not apply to any lottery which has obtained the sanction of a Crown Law Officer."

This section does not apply to any lottery

!_Mr. Elphinstone.

for which the sanction of a Crovm Law Officer is obtained. When the Code wa..« before ParliamPnt in 1899, no doubt the people were asked to trust Parliament. In reading the debates, we find that there were eertttin objections raised, and it was said that the matter would be left to the Min­ister's clisNetion, and that he would onlv grant permission to run lotteries in aid o'f charity, or of institutions such as churches. and cases of that description. That was the general principle adopted by all previous Governments until the present Government got into power. When churches have desired' to raise funds for church purposes by means of lotterieb. permission has been granted. Certain indivi·duals who have been in dis­tress ha vc also been granted permission to. raise funds by that means.

The S~CRE1'ARY FOR PFBLIC LANDS ; Do you approve of the Golden C>hket for thP purpose of the Anzacs?

Mr. MOR.G \:;'\: I have no objection to the Uoldcm Casket being used for th<' purpO"" of the Anmf's. I recognise thar gamblinc; is an 0vil which will e'Ci•;t, no mat· tcr which party is in power, but the gamblin!' evil, thf! same as the dr;nkirg evil, and numt'l'OUB othPr evils, which mav be terme<l "nPf'cssary evds," can be cor<tt~·lle.d, and ir 'is the rlutv of the Government to control them within limits, inctcad of encouraginp,­them ., the Governnwnt has done. I, with other hon. members. have been to some of the different gatherings rcfnr0d to by tlw hon. nwmber for Oxlcy. \Vhcn I was in Toowoornba, they wer'' selling the different politicians, and Mr. R.van was bought for 5.'-'., and another mernber for 1s.

The PRE:VIIER: \Vhat was the leader of the Oppo.,ition? (Laughter.)

Mr. MORGAN: 'C'nfortunately. his name was not on the paper. They were only sell­ing them for gambling purposP'•, and tlw names includ,d membPrs of the present Ministry and party. 'I'hc point I want tu make is this: In connection with the--e gamble~. you se<:· ol'diuary crowds of men at racecourses who can look after them--elves: but, unfortunately. there are men gambling who are not capable of looking after them­selves, <L'ld also !iYtle chi:dren. A number of us were tog•lthcr at one affa'r, and saw little boys frorn fourtrrn to sixt,"en years of agP putting their money on the " under and over 7," tho "three-card trick," th<' "whee1 of fortunP," and "Yankee sweat.'' I am not comp1aining about this bocaU·'e tlw money was r'liscd for the Labour party's politic'ctl funds; it is the same when the 111c~ney was raised foe patriotic purposes. Nrtwithstandin;; the fact that tho Minister ha·d given pcrmi- si on, the police ought to haYc been tht're, and every time a child was concerncrl, should have instituted a prosecu­tion. r.s they can do under the Su'1prc,sion of Gambling Act of 1895. This particular section has neVP\' been repealed, namely-

•" Any person who makes any bet or wag-or 1~rith any person whom he knows. to be an infant, or with any person on his behalf, or any person who for the purpose of earning any commission, reward, or other pi·rfit. sends or cau,es to ho sent to any such person any circu­lar, notice, n·dvertisement, letter, tele­gram, or other document which invites, or may rc•teonably be implied to invite, the person receiving it to make any bet

Gambling Devices for (4, JULY.] Raising Money, 737

or wager or to <>nter into or take any share or interest in any betting or wager­ing transaction, or to apply to any pers_on or at any place with a vieVI to obtam­ing infonnation a::- to any race, game, ~port, or other contingency upon which betting or wagering is gl'nerally carried on, ~hall be guilty of an offence, and «hall be liable on conviction to imprisonment, with or without hard labour, for any time not cxct•eding three months, or to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds, or to both imprisonment and fine."

'l'hat section is the law of the lanu to-day. notwithstunding that the Minister, under a Bills passed in 1899, was able to give per­mission for ~ lotterv to be condu('~.ed ; but while that is '""· the· Criminal Code Jocs not give permission to "llow a chil.d to b'•t ot· take pLrt in a lottery. It is not eo much tlF• older people, who know how to tukc care of themselvf'.o, but it is the children who are losing money that thvy cannot afford to losP. In connection '\vith eyery one of the gambling devices it is jmpo -sible to win; you haY~· 0nly to continue long <:>nough. ~·ou may put ~on1e n1oney on the ·' wheel of fortune " and win at ftrst, but it is impo.ssible to win eventuallv. \Vc find in connection with our sho'Y") ,l.n~d rac,~courses for manv vears that all the n~cn \Yho were kno' ,-n as·" Spieler j''­and I do not af·,.oc'·ate thotn vvi :1 tlF~ Go­vC'rnmcnt of thG day, any rnore tl~ 1n I a~,so­eiato t' ~m with any othoJ> Goverm.·_. nt~-

:J1r. C\H .. LTKS: Do you patroni~o tl1e1n ·:

::\Ir. :\!ORGAN: I attonJ and keep my ('yls open. In V ... ictcria, ~ e;:1rs ag,), thcrP tLJed to be a nu·"11> r 01. 1nvn \Vho n1adc it a prar_)tic:- tt:) att··:r~,..l the r .. ~ceeour."'-,· ··, _;:' _d the:: ('arricd ( n ganH ·. ~nch as " un(:n.r anJ over 7," "whe0l cl fortune," the- '·three-card trick," and ntUnl"'rous oth0r t:tin~rs. but we stopjwd that in Victo,·ia. Comin" to Queensland tPn 01· <'len~n year:, ago. I ncYf'r ~a\v "ll'l,)or and oyer 7," tho "thln1bk n.:nd pea.," or othc1· ga1nPs of garubling at the tim<'; but within the last two or three y<·us they have boen urried on at almost an-y raeeeour0£• or sport;; ~;athoring in (lu.eensland, a.nd I have found that m Rome in·,taneos tho police will sup11rcss these men, but in other places they are allowerl to carry on those gambling ,dn-iccs as if the law nevpr existed. Tho trouble in connection with the present party is that they seem to think that, owing to the fact that they arc in powH, th,, " spielers" from all over Australia can come into QuPensland and c-arry on their operations; they appea1· to be welcomed in Queensland now that they have been suppressed in other parts of the Commonwealth.

The PREi>!IER: You are not serious?

Mr. M ORGAN: I know what I am talking about. The Government have issued per­mits indiscriminately. The power to issue them was given, not in the 1895 Act but in the 1899 Act. but it was given to be used only to raise funds for charitable objects, and not for the purpose of subsidising any enterprise. The hon. member for Oxloy has etated that when you have a raffle conducted for the purpose ()f carrying on a newspaper, that newspaper may be supporting the Go­Yernment of the day, or may be in opposi­tion to the Government. But the point is that when the Minister issues permit<J for gambling to take place for party purposes­to subsidise a newspaper or increase the

1918-2 z

political fighting funds of a party-I think he is overlooking the intention of that par­ticular Act of Parliament. It wa' never in­tended for that purr;ose, and yet we have been told bv several Ministers on the Trea­sury bench<;;, to trust the Government. How cu11 we trust the Government in connection with thcec numerous Act.3 of l>arliament--

Mr. HARTLEY: IY<' do not want vou to trust the Government. IV<.l do not w:ant vou to worry about thc·m. ·

Mr. MORGAN: How can we trust them when we know they are doing these things? ::\o other party would allow them to do it­Had anvbodv come forward in th<'- Liberal reign to raise funds for the ftghting fund of "' party or establish a Liberal newspaper and <lskod permission to do so by way of gambling. it would have been refused by previous Governments.

'l'he PRJDUER: How do you know it would have been refused? ·

Mr. MORGA~: I know perfectly well it would huve been refused. I know in con­nection with applications that were turned do ..... vn--

Thll PRE}!IER: Similar applicatio11s?

Mr. MORGAN: I do not say similar anpli­cation';, because I do not suppose similar applications were made. It is only under this Gov,•mmcllt that applications of that dcecription •.1·ould be made. Xobody else

ould Pncl( .lV'.er to c~o \Yhat this GtnT('l'n­ment hav<> ·dow•. I think th·1t this is a nuuJor that oug-ht to ,engag-e th(l serious a ttcntion of nwm l1ers >Yho are on the oppO",ite :·· Je of the" }Iou·<?·. J\ gn,at n1any rnen on the o~ her · 1de nrp marriC'd nH'}n and have fmnilics co1nin~ on. ..._:\..s I h·tve said, it is the ~·oung peoplP who arc doing the most g.nnbli:ng rnd lo:;:ing the most 1noney in con­n<'ction with the g;amblinr;- devioc:<. I say that in cnnnection with tho Ri··>ing Sun City, lw<:ans<' four m0mber., of Parliament made up their minds to sec if poc,sible tho class of ncople who wer0 losing their money.

Mr. F ... \. COOPER: Is it not thP workers? Tol it not thP working cl"'' who find all the money for all the world?

Mr. MORGA~: I am going to say that in conm•ntion with this matter the people -who \'\~ere "doing" the 1noney '\vere the \vage­Pfll'D('l'R. They \V0l'C th0 workf'rs, to a great extent.

JI/Ir. HARTLEY : You are quite right. The other crowd are putting it. into the war loan at 4~ per ccut. That is the sort of gamble thpy lih.

Mr. ::\10RGA~: It is the wage-earner v.ho is being affected by these gambling devices, and the man who cannot afford to lose the money suffers the most. Some men may be­able to afford to lose money; they can afford to go to the races and lose £100 ·and their banking account is not affected, but, another man may lose £5 which might affect the hr<'ad and butter of his wife and family for the following 'vcek. (Hear, hear !) And· members oppositP, who arc alleged to repre­sPnt that particular claR9 of the community. shouJ.cl endeavour, if possible, to take these devicPs awaY from these individu(lls who arc losing their· money.

Mr. CoLLINS: We are. Mr. MORGAN: They are not. I am quite

satisfied that had anyone of these particular cities heen run so that the funds might go to purposes other than those for which:

J.fr. M01·gm~.]

738 [ASSE:M:BLY.J Raising l.:Ioney.

they were a-dVBrtised-for the purpose of subsidising a Labour newspaper and subsi­dising the fighting funds of the Labour party -if it had been in the other directiOn a no­confidence motion would have been tabled !n this House by members of the Opposition, If the prc,ent Government were sitting in opposition, and the matter would have been fully debated. And I say that they would have been quite justified in doing that. I say that we are quite justified in doing any­thmg to suppress this gambling evil which is creeping in. You do not see it in other States of the Commonwealth like it exista in Queensland to-day.

Mr. POLLOCK : Do you not ?

Mr. MORGAN: You do not. Mr. PoLLOCK: Have you been to Wren's,

down South, lately?

Mr. MORGAN: I am not talking about ordinary gambling on racecourses where you <Can go and bet or put money on the totalisa­tor. I know _you cannot suppress that, although I am m favour of suppressing the bookmaker and having all the gambling done through the totalisator. I know as ,. man of th~ world that you cannot suppress gambhng, that you cannot do away with it !'lt?gcther. People will gamble, but I say 1t Is the duty of the Government to control it. It is. the duty of the Government to try to .keep It away from the rising generatioh. It Is the dutv of the Government not to make it easy for "the child of twelve or fourteen <Jr sixteen to go into the main streets of the principal towns of Queensland and walk up and put a shilling on the different devices ~hey have ~or gambling purposes. I say that 1~ IS not nght. How many members oppo­site would like to see their children do that? They should not hold out inducements for the children _of other people to do what they would not hke to see their children doing and in this respect I say the Government has. failed in its duty by allowing these deviCes. I saw devices of this kind on race­courses twenty years ago in Victoria but they are now coming into operation .~gain here.

The PREMIER : What do you think of the Federal Government allowing lotteries in .,onneetion with the war loan?

Mr. M ORGAN: I did not, and I do not <approve of their action in that. I say th~ war loan would have been equally as well subscribed to had they not adopted that practiCe, but they adopted it because it was adopted in Great Britain.

'.rhe PREMIER : But this motion will con­demn their action as well.

Mr. MORGAN: We are quite prepared that this motion should condemn it, and I hope and trust that when the Federal Go­vernment float their next loan they will ask the people to give £40,000.000, and the people will give it, too. I say the loan is necessary and it should be subscribed by the people who have got the money, and if the Government find they will not they should do as thev did in New Zealand. New Zea­land has not adopted gambling devices; New Zealand has told the people, " We want so many millions, ~nd if you will not give it we are going to take it from you." And that i• what this Government should do.

Mr. WINSTANLEY: I thought you did not believe in repudiation.

[Mr. JJ1organ.

Mr. MORGAN: That is not repudiation. That is · bxation. Surely to goodness the hon. member ought to know the difference. \Ve are told that a great quantity of the money -v.hich was raised was not legiti­mately used, and I think we ought to have an inquiry by a Supreme Court judge as to whether the sh>.tements made by the hon. member for Oxley are correct, to the effect that this plant was bought for £400, and that those men who purchased it have been using it all over Queensland with a view· to raising money and paying 50 per cent. out of the proceeds.

Mr. PoLLOCK : How can we take the state­ment seriously, if he will not table tlw letter?

Mr. MORGAN: How can he table the letter? We know he has not got the per­mission of the writer. No doubt, if you give him the opportunity, he will. He haa promised to let the Premier see it, and he is bona fide, but in reading the letter right through, being a new member, he offended against the Standing Orders unknowingly. It was not his intention to do so, and I think he made a most generous and fair offer when he undertook to hand it to the Premier. But that is not the point. The point is that these people who are running these different fairs throughout the large towns are drawing this amount of money, and they are paying the remainder, 50 per cent., to the " Daily Standard " and 50 per cent. to some other object. First of all, the promoters are taking 50 per cent., and then they are only dividing the other 50 per cent., or half the proceeds, between the different objects for which the money is raised. Surely to goodness there is no mem­ber on the Government side of the House who can justify actions of that sort ! I would not like to suggest that members oppo­site are connected with these promoters, or that they are getting a dividend out of the money they are making. They are evidently making much money. and becoming rich people-there is no doubt about that-but the Premier, in connection with differeni patriotic institutions for raising funds, has, in many instances, had the Auditor-General inspect their accounts, and go into matters fully. I am sure he would not allow money to go astray or extortionate amounts to be received by the promoters in those cases, and why should he allow extortionate amounts to be taken out of these patriotia funds by the promoters? And there is no doubt that 50 per cent. is extortion.

The PREMIER : Who has shown it ?

Mr. MORGAN: It has been shown that in connection with the Rising Sun City the amount received from gambling alone was nearly £7,000. The promoters, the owners of these buildings which cost £400 odd, are getting 50 per cent. or 30 per cent., whatever it may be, out of the proceeds. It is not right. It should not have the support of one honest member ·of the Go­vernment, or the party that might be in power. I feel sure that the hon. member for Bowen would not for one moment sup­port anything of that sort. I feel sure he must come to the conclusion that it is not right to allow these men to take 50 per C"nt. of the proceed3, when they are receiv­ing the money for the " Daily Standard " or patriotic purposes, or even for the funds of the Labour party. It should be con­trolled and regulated, and I do hope that

Gambling Devices for (4 JULY.] Raising Money. 739

the Premier will take notice of the resolu­tiOns. I J--,,pc it will come to a division. so that we will know exactly where we stand. If it iJ onlv for the protection of the juvenile clas'J- of the community, something should be done.

The PRE}!IER: I want it to be clear that it condemr;s the a~tion of tho Federal Go­vernment in permitting lot~eries . in conne<:­tion with war loans-especrally If thore rs a. .division.

Mr. M ORGAN: So far as that is con­cerned, I would just as soon vote against the Federal Government as the present Govern­ment. I think it is a wrong principle.

The PREMIER: I ask that because their regulations over-ride our State law.

Mr. MORGAN: Yes, but it is the State law that has given permission to use these garnbling devices.

Hon. W. H. BARNES : You are only side­tracking.

Mr. MORGAN: The Premier cannot side­track it in that wav. His State law-the section I have read-says that permission must be obtained from an officer of the Crown Law Department, or otherwise the police would take action. The very moment the police come along they find the people breaking the law, because the law says you cannot run a game of chance.

The PREMIER : They can prosecute if there is any betting with youths.

Mr. M ORGAN: Yes, I have pointed that out. 'Why have not the police prosecuted?

Mr. BEBBIXGTON : Because they would lose their billets if they did.

Mr. KIRWAN: Rubbish. Mr. BEBBINGTON: The police dare not in­

terfere-you know that. Mr. MORGAN: In connection with the

Rising Sun City, where I was present with other members, we were talking about the matter, and looking on together, and taking note of what happened.

Mr. GILDAY: Did you have a bet.? [5 p.m.] Mr. MORGAN: Yes. We put Ss. on the

" under," and won Ss., and then we went away, and afterwards " blew up " the Ss.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Did you "get rich quick" ?

Mr. MORGAN: No; we had one bet, and went away. But while we w(lre betting there were little children betting alongside us, and the member for Pore Curtis was also watching it.

Mr. CARTER : I never took a bet there in my life.

Mr. MORGAN: I know h<;l did not take a bet, because he was not so liberal as I was, but he had the opportunity of seeing those little children and women betting.

Mr. WINSTANLEY: Why did you sec them such a bad example?

Mr. M ORGAN: They wer<} doing that before ever we went there. The point we want to make is this: These gambling- de­vices have no right to be resurrected. They would cc,•se to exist in Queen~land except in gambling dens, and the poFce have the power to raid them. \Vhy have not the police raided, more of these gambling dens? There is a great number of them existing in Queensland. We lmmv that recently men were shot, and a man lost his sight coming

away from a gambling den. Men go to these gambling dons with loaded revolvers.

Mr. C\R1'ER: Rot! Mr. M ORGAN: It is an absolute face,

Rlthough the hon. member for Port Curtis say•· " Hot." It was st.,ted distinctly in the inquiry held by the police that one man was shot within a few yards nf this gambling place. As the hon. member for Oxley says, the:>e gambling places are owned by men who occupy very high positions in this State, one of them bv a very prominent man in public life. Why is not that man prosecuted 1 ·why does not the law make is impossible for a man to rent his property foi' a gambling place? Why should these rich men draw 1~n enormous incom<;l in rentalB from these places, because if they rent property for gambling purposes they get ever so much more rent than they would if they rr,ntcd it for ordinary purposes? Why should these men, occupying hi;rh and important positions, be allowed to rent their properties for gambling purposes, and nothing be said about it?

l\1r. HARTLEY : To whom are you refer­ring?

Mr. MORGAN: The hon. memb(lr is very innocent. 'l'here is no need to refer to them by name, because hon. members have only got to find out the owners of the property wh<:n these places are raided. They could look it up for themselves, a.s I have done­go to the Titles Office and discover in whose name these properties are. The very next time a gamblin'l' den is raided, let the hon. member go to i he Titles Office and discover for himself. The whole thing is this, that those men are not prosecutC'd, and why are they not? We find that the poor, unfor­tunate Chinamen who meet together and have their little game are prosecuted. We 'Bay \\<e are 'going to make. them very "goody goody," and the Chinamen say, ".'\o savoc." But notwithstanding that they have to go before the court, and they are. fined.

Hon. \V. H. BARNEB: He has no vote. Mr. 1\fORGAN: Exactly. He has no vote.

And at the same time that you take the poor, unfortunate Chinaman to the court you can go down the main street of Brisbane and put your money on the " under and over 7," and all the other gambling devices.

Mr. KIRWAN: You seem to have had a good experience.

Mr. MORGAN: I am a man of the world, and I know something about thece things. I lived among the shearers for a number of years, and the shearer is a man who lik<;l~ his bit of gambling. Any man who has lived the life I have done has the experience I have of these things. But I want to protect the young peop]fl from gambling, and I say it would be much better, especially during war time, to restrict it. Every other country in the world, since the war broke out, has broup;hC in special legislation to prevent gambling, drinking. and the wast<: of money generallv. In every other country in the world they have found it necessary in OI·din­ary times to have certain laws on the sub­ject, but now they have made t.hesf) laws more drRst; e, in order to prevent tht> people from wasting their money in gambling and drinking and other evils. But this Stnte of Queensland is c~il\ doing everything to en­courag-e it. and there is not one member of this House who can get up and honestly say there is less gambling in Queensland

ilfr. M organ.]

740 Gambling Dec·iccs for [ASSE:MBLY.] Raising J!Ioney.

than there was four or five years ago. They must admit gambling has inereased at least 100 per cent. When this particular Bill dealing with th<; Criminal Code was intro­duced, the Minister of the day said, " Trust u•. Give the Minister certain power." In 1895 the Gambling Act did not allow the Minister to give permission to a church or other charitable object. It was prohibited altogether, but some influence was brought to bear, and it was decid<;ld that the Minis­ter should have power to grant permission to run a lottery for charitable or religious purposes. The Minister of the day asked Parliament to trust the Government, and they did.

Mr. KIRWAN: You know the man who introduced that Bill lost his scat over it. That is all the thanks he got.

Mr. MORGAN": He may have lost his seat. J\'Iany a man has lost more than his seat by bringing forward some reform, and if ,., man lost his life through bringing in a reform for the benefit of the masses of the community he would be .dying in a good cause.

OPPOSITION ME)!BERS: Hear, hear!

:'vir. l\10RGA:01: I remember a. man who was kiclced to death in Victoria about twelve years ago. l-Ie \Vas one of a cla::;s of "spielers" \V~lo used to knock about and play the ''und< i.' and ov-er" and other ga-nbli_:Jg devi(\''' rlhat n1an was a i-t-,-:_strr in C'Vf'rV n ,. pc et. llc lost hi'. life. but he dicl con ·.idol:_ able goJd b,; !-;sing his lii'c, becan.<' it c:>,u-_pd_ a measure of rcfonn to be broug-ht in. \V e know th<• g,ai'.blin:r that tcok plac~ on the }'lcm .. -jngton RacC'Cf urse and the: discracefuJ things that occurred tlwri', but the people could not gd rho 1 ,oli~iciaru. to dn l ith it, ju ·t as the politicians are afraid to touch cer1 .cin interest here in Queensland, perhaps becau'o the fighting fund wants replenishing. But when the politicians refused to take notice of what the people were saying and asking with regard to the Flemington Racecourse, the people took the matter into their own hands, and they killed that man who was always "taking them down," and the re­form" was brought about immediately. That man did more good by dying than he would ha.-c done by living for 500 years. He was instrumental in bringing in a. measure of reform, and that is what we want here. The Secretarv for Railwavs, according to the attitude" he adopted ,;,hen he was on this ,ide 'of the House, was going to bring in a wonderful measure of reform in gambling and racing in Queensland. Hon. members know that he has a little of the same experi­cRce as my se If, and he knows perfectly well all the abuses that are being carried on.

The SECRETARY FOR R.ULWAYS: I never kicked a man to death.

Mr. MORGAN: No, but if the hon. mem­ber died in the interests of this reform we would have something to be thankful to him for. (Hear, hear !) If he brought about the reform in connection with unregistered rac­ing he ad.-ocated when on this side of the House, he would have done a good thing. We have seen articles about it in the "Daily Standard," and nobody was more against it than the present Minister for Railways; and as I have already stated, if he had brought about this reform, although he might have been set upon one dark night, still he would have died in a good cause, and he would have had a. monument of pqrity erected to his memory.

[Mr. M organ.

Mr. F. A. COOPER (Bruncr): I wa~ pleas''d when the hon. member for Oxl9y otarted the debate this afternoon to hear him eay that he would treat the subject on very broad lint''', and that he would treat it in such a way that it would be no party ques­tion, ancl both sides of the House could ap­proach it in a. spirit that would allow us to come to an equitable decision, and conse­quently not be in any way harsh. I regret to say he hardly went two minutes befors he fell away from his high estate, dropped from the high pinnacle he tried to stand on. ancl was floundering about in the mud of politics and casting aspersions which no man should cast on a man in his absence. Rio seconder, the hon. member for Murilla, practically dragged things further i'!to the gutter. In order that we may raise the ton0. of the debate, and that we may arrive> at something that is not a political move, a ch•mce takmi by the hon. member for Oxley that he hopes will perhaps gain him some political kudos, I beg to move as an amend­ment to omit all tlw words after the word 'House,' with the view of inserting the fol­hnving:-

" tho gambling spirit is based upon the de' ire to gain the fruits of production without exertion; that its eradication is clco·irable. and can be·,t be accomplished l1y f'radic·tting a sr~tem \vhich allows profit, o.nd instituting a system whereby he work'r will receive the full product

of l1is labour; and procluction shall b:, for u .e and not for profit."

I woulcl have been quit' conh'nt to debe.te the motion as mon d bv the hon. member for Oxlcv hrd !w dealt with gambling- as g'lmb-

'should Le dealt with', but I am afraid n he went to s 'arch for tlmt mat rial

~ch.-t he our;ht to have ::r,ot ~c,_· his motion h(• found that the d'gumcnts againot gambling are not Yer-,· cure or V{'ry clear, as at fir t might ]}., thought. Probably h<' went ': 1 thL " Spech!or '' o' J 394 >tnd 1895 and found the wonderful m·ticks written by the editor of that magazine. Ho found that the argnn1ents against' gP"'n1blin:r, ;,i ere not alto­gether oecure. Notwithstanding !he \mnd~r­ful defene0 put up by the editor of tne " Spectator" in those times, the whole com­munity knows that gambling IS not a good thing, and although w~ may n_ot . be. able to pin down the great eVIl that IS m It, none the less we know the evil is there. The hon. member for Murilla said that gambling had increased during the la"t fiv<> years. W~y, gambling has been increaeing and keepmg afoot of time eYer since the statue of the goddess of fortune was placed on ~he Pan­theon of pagan Greece. It has mcrcased e.-er since. a.nd to-day of all the gods and goddesses 'of ancient mythology the goddess of fortune is the onh- one whose altar fires etill burn. To-day "she is worshipped as the goddes' of fortune, the g-oddC'ss of luck. nw goddess of chance, the goddess of liberty, a.nd-a.s in the cas<' of some. hon. members opposite-the goddess of acmdm;t. (Laughter.) 1!ntil wo make som~ defimto attempt to deal with the present soc!al syste'?­which rob• the worker of the fru1ts of his labour and places him year by year on thG altar of the goddess of fortmw, then we will not stop gambling. L"nti_l we reform eur social system and b':ild. It on proper lines, then the sort of thmg rc~erred t? by the hon. member for Oxley w1l~ contmue. The hon. member for Oxley said he :vas not going to enter into a tirade agamst

Gambliw] D< ;·ices for [4 JULY.] Raising J.VIoJuy. 741

ga.1nbling. Probabl~, he refrain0d fron1 doing so bec;moe. had ho started he \"ould haY<' found the di,-i~.ion 1·,:,tv.'<.1(1; con1n1orce anJ. gamblirg so thin that he would not know when he was talking about con1nlercc• and when he w:cc talking D bout gamblinc. EYcry n1ernber of tL_is I-Iou.~~ knoY. s t~bout the huge gambles that Ld<c place on the otock ~ c­change. \Ye lmo1,. that in wheat tho ::"iew York St<Jck Exchange's cash .. ales amounted to £49,000,000 in one YPar, and we !mow that in that stock ( xchan~·:c no 1--•<c n ~u1n th~nl £230.000,000 was ;;-tmblcd in on<• year in connection ·with th0 different rinrrs in cxi~­tcnce in that countrY. Vi' e hay,, r< ad ali ,, bout '' longs" nnd ,t 8horts," and "futures" ,and "options," and all th0 rest of it. lion. n1e-~I11bcrs. OJ.Jposite "\Yill kno\,- the 1ncaning vf all these termc. Tlwy knm-· all about the gan1bling ~·pirit which i:., in evidence in con­Jwction \vith tlw big ' heat deal,, in America. and in conncc'ion with the cotton dt aL-. As I have c<tatrd. in one cih alm:P the sum of £230,000.1' ;o ·ya<" CXJFncled in tJ,~, gambl­ing spirit in one product. \Y <' know all ::;bout the gambling that +akos plac~ in •.dwat. in cotton, in Ini11in;:::. and in a::_n<;<ultural rno­<lucP. \Ye know vc·ry litilo abcut these things in this countrv. although th. r(' i::; a littlP gamblinc: done 'here. Still we knave that they ••xis~ in other countric ~,. and vet the hoa. 111embe::. for C·d0v stands n1J hc:rc and at­telnpt~. to reform~ the \Vorld ~by refrr::_··:ng to son1e little tinpot Libr_·rty Fair ,vhich runs a. get-rlch-quick und o+her .f~D.Ult .• Th0 hon. gentlcrnan did not t 11 u;; anything ahout thr: 1nark0t rlg!)'f'l'S of the iinanri.al vvorld. IfP prf'f('l'red to t:J 11;: v bont th(' :.;ot-rich-qui{'k a\ the Liberty Fair. What is the use Df talking .t:bont g'.t-rich-qnick when -we know that it takes th<' worker all hi·. time to got food quick. That h<•.s !·?en the need , f tlw w<wk· ,. since tirne inllllC'lllorial. ~>\ll h0 i..; conr"1'1l("l about is getting his food quid<. ancl h0 ha 110 tinw b think :'bout getting rich quick. Hon. nwm!Jers of thi House know that thP whole of the mono,, found for the e;amhling spirit throughout th0 ·\\ idc~ wide \Yorld conw ~ from. tlh• exer· =on~ of thl' Inf'n who \York. from the men who toil long Lmr_:. from tlw prDducer'·, and it is on the production of this world that g"mbling· takes place. S0me work-\vorn toiler goes down to Liberty Fair and puts threepence or a shilling 0n somtc game, and Iner:.1b0rs of the Oppo''·ition raise their hands in holy horror, and with a most pious nxprc<sion on thc~r faces talk about it as if it '"ere some7hing -dr0nclfuL yrt they {'a.n face with equanimitc- th<' gambling which gms on at the sto, k exchan~re, all the Dther &alnbling- of the \Yor],J in connection with con1JTIE'l'cr. and in connr-r:tion ,vith tbe gambL in~:~ in tll" produr<~ of thP p0oplr-. Thev lt•r)k on qu~rtlv at this '"~n-t of g,:mblln~. antl rub­bin):,~ thei:" har ds together say, "It is lmsi­ne.-:-.:, my brothPr, it is busine '--;·" (Govern­ment laughter.) \Ye know all about thP deg-r .elation of gt'nbling. and \\~e know tha" !f'Yf rY rcliu:iou in thP 'vorld ha-> nt ;"'OlllP tide' or other spac ''cloclir lly entered its pro­test nr:;ainst gan1b1inp'. \YP knov1 to-rLy that tlw ( 'h1 i·,.tian church ha~ f'nter('d it:-; protr• ... t agai,lst Q"a-~lhling, but n1err1~JPr ~ opnosit0 know the historv of the ehur h PO far gambling is cmor0rnecl. \\~c> knmY th1 t Bishop \Yilberforr{' \\ \_)nt to n countr l- ; 1 ' on n vi~it and found n ·,ulnf' in }n·r;--r; ~- Tie joined in the gamp ai1r1 \von £6GJ that ni~·ht. HE> never gambled afterwards. (L1nght0r.l He was something like tlw hon. m0mbor for Murilla. (Laughh·r.) The differ£>nce behYCf n

Bishop \Yillwrforce and the hon. member· for '.Iurillrt i' thi': Bishop \Vilberforce was hurt by th<> pai_, he caueed the young man whD loet t'w nJone,-, but the hon. member for =lfurilla \\·as nut pained at all. In fact, the hon. mcmbee \vas glat{ thr.t he had the 'ight "bob" tD '·blow in." (Renewed laughter.) Bishop V\ilberfmce never disgorged his n1onc'y. \Ve kno\v tl1at anoth~-r e1ninent di.·iu. Dr. Bulor. \YOn £740 at a pri>.J.te hou·<' one nii,h+, but he g-aYe tin money back t ' the man lw .-.·~m it from. and ho "·as that

ITV tlu·_t h(' lH',.t'l' garnb1;._•d a~;ain. Pvr­hop~. BisiJC:)J \Yi:lwrf<'rce an:l 'Dr. liutler \YL'l'P ::l_cwtrd t.J ·~hc'-E countr:,· honscs to see the n-il of g·an'bliL :. \Vho knows but that thC'. Lib0r~, 1 ·airs :-:cnt round t:l 0 countrY 1night ~f'rvC tb0 hJl11" pu1 :)(''' •. (Oppf,9itio~l 1aup;hter.) Th0 gr( at h ~nd ·whi~ il could guide Biehop \Yilberforc:' and Dr. Butler cannot guidP the pool' .<1Hd lo,wly \York0r. Oh: ;no. Hon. nwmbt'i'', forg t that the gmdmg hand dirt'eti> the poo · and Jo~,,, ly \vorkPr jtnt the ae directs the Bishop. Po!ey, in his "l'l11i m Rvidcnc'." point; this out. \Y(' ha-;;e -hp vl~_-u of gluttony, the viec of drnnkPnnc .s, aetl the vict' of rea mbling. Our gT!'at poet~ and \Yri~ ,'1':-\ risP UC" ;-.sionally to -f'xto1 thr~ vic0 of rl1'·1nkPllll€ '~. Omar Khan,,:.m . . :.s, "Ah. fill the cup," "nd in his J)liiln oph~· h0 :nwnHons it n1orc th~n on~e. \Vho n-, lu~~ not felt lw~rtil. "\IYlth ~llf• Orders GraY vd1L'H he fang that f:ono: \Yhit'h ex'-~:dlctl gluttony'! I could repeat 1lH v ,Jrd.; he' n~-f'r1. b·u! l <Ull RUrt· that hon. rn<'Inlwr,;, (!1'!' ~;;ell ;_,cqlwintc-'d '\\ ith the Friar o~ CnL:! ... (; 1 L~Y. who h) 1 a g-0nni.ne love for a ,rroud u-- nl · 'Ud a he L_rt,v c~:joyn1cnt of a doL "1t -.la ~ of port. \\hp ha,, ne heard that o·lo-riou:-; :-:01:, ahcut beer. snug by thk· drun];f'il rP\ _,ll )r whr.•n W('Hcling· his vrarped \Yrl.V holllPW,~rd- -

~ Bi'cr. bcl~r. gloriou~ L-0f'l', Fill your,;elf ri: ht up to here•; ])rinh.: a gcocl dt•al of _it. :VIake a g(10d rnf'a1 of rt. Stiek to vour old-fa"hion<'d beer. Sinp: ont ~ thf' nanw o.: it. Carol th<' fame of it. Now. aH")_gether, a. eheer­l:'n with the "ale of it, D~wn with a. pail of it. Gioriou", glorioue beer !

(Loud lauf','hter).

Thcn·r• j5 not a tcn1perunC'C' advocate in thP \Yorhl who ha:- n<Jt ,;miled when he ~ea~ the d:-unkard howlinc; about the beautws of hi,~ gl<)J'ion.;; liquoY. But I have never known a poet or a ·writer, u..ncient or l!lodern, who hrr« extolled th0 vicP of gamblmg. It has n<Jt bt en ,.,t<,llcd in song or story as the vice of drunkennt"·~. and . the vice of glut­tonT,T have. G.rmbling i_c a curse \vhich gro1vs and grows. and g<'i. into the very vitals of the peO'l:<'. It vets th·cre and ',tops there, and it ~TO\;R bc·-nl~e t!1v: ycry s:ys.tcn1 und!='r w~1ich \\.'f' }i,, allows 1t and encourages rt. The whole cctusP of '!,,, ·ambling spirit is tb• fn t th <t the workers toil and prodnee. anfl provi-de the monPy for which the rram1-dCr:::.. .~:t,unbk. ':C'ut ]~, the- vcr:v reason ~~,hir·h, pr'rlwlh ulrwittiug1y. kept the hon. mc'mber for Oxlcv from referring to the stock exchange. and kept him from referring _to rlP other rrre--t o·ambJee Df thG '7,·orJd, While fl.t thE' "nn~e TirnP it nllovved hin1 to refer to the lit.tl' tin-pot .~.hing-q he n1cntioncd in !ti< addn•'s to-da:-. The political party ·\~-hi(·h the hon. g-cPtlc·n1an .support~:. a11d thP political systPm ~ \Yhieb the hon. gentleman

Jfr. F. A. Cooper.l

742 Gambling DcuiC[S jo1' [ASSEO\fBLY.] Rais;ng ]jfoney.

holds Ull, lH lp to main~ gan1bling wha.t it i~ the world over .. Gambling is c:msed by the very s:votem >Jllch .Uow.·J men to produce and others to take n.oncy which they do not earn. lt 1 acc,·:ntuated b- mf''J who take monec• from the workers ;;~ho toil and s,wcat .;~ovitliou_t doing- v 0 _ytbing th~m·.r-lYf''" to earn 1. it B fur th .' TCU·O'l that I moved the amendment I did this afternoon. Th·· social order \.vhich tllow.:; a ,-nan to acqni1· • di10r than that which ]y justly "·orb for is vvrong. I nn1 r 'lllindcJ by an in~.._rjection that thc~·o is tt '>- J.r on. and it hrd in.-'t fiashc:1 into 1ny n1inc1 th<lt ~otncthing n1t~;ht l •- <11d on that qu_·;tion in connection with th: :ubjcct of gan1hling. I think that \VC

rn1ght dn ~on1~ ihjll!S in tho \Vav of educat1n0' the world and eli;,1in ting t!1is old s~ 'tom~ For the n1en \Yho hu.v(~ gone-the n1en ho have borne the heat and buc J 'n of tho dav­WI~ all 1w.-.:o the ~r.: r ~ttc: ·:; rospe,c~. But thCro ar0 other 111<.:!11. Therr> are 1nen who are lTiagnifiCC!1t fi!._;htCI.~. rrhev 1 a,n t-tlk about the horrors of ~.ho Ilun, ,:~nd the df·~nicab:e things \·/hich he ha:,; ·~cno to the ,·,-ido~vs and orphans of the ~;uallcr nationr::. 'fhf 30 n1ag­n~ficcnt :fi_..;~!tt"\rs hav -: tu1d u ho\:/ the lltUlil

<h'fiJured the childr· .1 of the netions t!J.•v ovt'l'.t'.an. Thn:,, 1vi1l tuH You how thoT,· \VOuld deal with the lluns if ;,!()" only c;uld '-\·et thlEL In fac•, the•· d"O aJI valiant fig-htcc·s-12,000 1mies ·"' ty. \'le h~ve the Huns in our mid,t at the prc·,cnt tim. \Ve have the f:~1n~1c:ci~l Hun,. \V c have the prof1tecring hun• \Vo ha•. •J them all here, and we know that th~y ha1·e . tranglod thu wido-· s and orphans, 'nd iho,- hayn ·rli .. fio-mC'd the chil ~ren ... ,,tnnting th~ir nlc,ntality.b Jv, ar~:ng their Jntelhgen{'e, nnd rohhin -. thmn of their opportunitle.s. I-I ere i:-s a- fight >;rhich th0so Yaliant won who talk about fighting the Iluns 12,000 nnL•·> aWUI' cdn enter into if they cho'?so. But who,; they u·e asked to do anythu~g, they sa~,·, " It has ahvays gone O?, and >nil alway ... g-o on." At tho pr0sent iinw. we haYc a 1nighty organisation of arnucs. They ha,, o been fed and dot heel and ammunitio~cd in order that they might wage war .ag··mst each other. If we can dotho and munition millions of men for the sake of destruction, >dl,ct can •ve not do for t!Jo sake of p1·odnction? If we could provi­sion an army and nnrnition men with the tools o_f indtHtry, what sort of a nation could we bmld up? \Yo umld build euch a nation that there would be no nrr-d to rf' ort to the petty devices of gambling to ,.bile awav th<; ham·, or to builn up a n0wspaper o'i· bmld up a town, or a State. \Vo would be able to do something towar·d3 buildino- un a great nntion and make u·' a bettm· ],co),le if we could only get the same o .. mount of money spent in that direction as is spent at. the .rrec:mt timo on war. If ,, o look at th_1s thmg m tin right spirit, and do away w1th all party pl'<'iudicec: and look the thino< fairly and squarely in the face, we can re~ where. all the money comes fro~ that causes gamblmg. When we look at the gambling in commerce that takes place in the stock ex­change, we <>an cee how they rob the poopk · and if ''e can do anythin:-: to prevent that'. we will do ~omothing- toY• ards eradicatin•r ~his o:r£·J.t curse that ·has bt.:en upon us fo; so ]ong a t-irne. It is tin1c wo attc.nntcd to (:lo ~ompt hin0: in thi~ dir!•ction. 1 think the House w0uld do well to carrv the amcnd­.ment vchirh T .have outline-d.' Let us see ~.-hat Wl\ can do to improve humanih-. Ld u< t~ ke t1u:~ 8pn.dc· and dis- deep do\vn'" to the

[Mr. F. A. Cooper.

root of this great vi8c, and cn·dicate it alto­gether. It would t. far bc;tcr to do that than t\q the hon . .:.1cn1bcr for O...:~cy sug­gc ~.s-take a !Hlir of n1anicun~ f'C; 1rs and T; Pl'('ly jop off a hvlg hcr0 and there.

GOVERN)fE:\1' :CIE)IBER;: Hco.r, hear !

J<.:r. BAYLEY (Piltswortlt) I did not come prepan d to s1 £tk 0:1 the am:ndn1~:::-nt, not expecting such an amendment to he moved.

The SPEAJZEI~.: 'rhc hon. 1n0rnbcr ,,;·ill hr'l quite in order in spf'aking on the motion.

Mr. BA YLEY: I am not prep.c .. red to . speak on the ,mcndment, so I intend to spe 1k on i ho n1otion for a fc,v 1ninutes.

1\Ir. CoLLIXS : The amendment is beyond you.

Mr. BA YL 1~Y: n SC0mR a' though hon. members of the Government ar~ not alive to the importance of this subject. It seems to me that the:: pride themselves upon lift­in~ the nul :,:-:;Ps-to use a c lmn1on expression, ,--;~hich I c~o not caro for-thE<: pride them-

selves on their sociali ,tic idc.1S, [5.30 p.m.] but ha' o no conception, gene-

r2lly speakinr:r, of \viw,t it is to lift th<> peo]Jh up to a. lug-her plane of life. \Ve know that the gambling spirit as it exists to-day i.s doh:tg a vast .1mount of harn1 in thii< rountrv. It was nointed out by one Opposition member that Hie Government' have taken gre?.t pains to make C!l'rech in different quarters of tlw city, and arc making rai<ls on gambling cl·ns. RaidJ ha>·e been n:ad0 on Chitu1n1en v·ho \VGrc engaged in playing '"fan tan," and other games. The~e men are doing- little lnrm to r<ll'"one hut them­selves. The Chinam<'!l who play " fan bn!' and g-amblo in thnir gambling dens, do little hurt, except to themselves and their families; but when we iind that gambling iG a llo,yrd to be 1 'arried on in every part of the city, and the Government i, giving to gambling a garb of respecta.bility, and it is being legalised by the Government. it is a very different matter. \.Vo find the injur;c which i,,, being sn<taincd by the country is increasing rapidly. \Vo know that the great majority of pu,plo would not go in for gan;blin~ to any {:~xtent, if it ;,vcre not legalised by the Government, and given this air of resprchcbility. How many people would go to the Chinese "fan tan " shops, or to the gambling dens to which I have alluded? Very few; but tens of thousands are found going to th~ various places of amusement where tho"c games of cha,nc£> are plaved. It is looked upon as being respectable, and the con<'ct thing. I am prepared to admit, with the members of the Government side who h:we spoken, that it '·eemR impossible to eradicate the love of gambling from th0 hearts of manv adults, and I say that for a man •d1o loves the g'innc of chance I am ·~orrv, but \VG cannot do ,-crv much for him. But for the sake of the 'little children who are g-rowing- up l n our rnidst, and tho [ \-:ncrations vet un­born, it is the dutv of eve'rv man and \voman in this Skte, who have 'any ]aye for the children, and a clr"ir:· to se•.• Queensland a happiN State, to <lo all t.h~,- possibly can to .stan1p out this PYil 1vhich is in our midst. I am qnite prenarcd to admit that many men g.Lmblc. and it apparently does then) little h:rm-thcv can m•l,e a bet and lca.-e it alone-but ,;.e find that hundreds and thousands arc living. dcy bv daY, with a fcvcri"h and ovPr-gro\ving desire in their hearts to get rich without work. \Ve find

[4 JULY.) Raisin,[/ Jionc:;. 743

members of the Go'<ernment side laying charges again• t members on this side of the House that they luvc no thought for the toiling mc,s,es of the people, whose produc­tion is only u .. ed to fatten and enrich those who are already in good circumstance". This has be en continually hurled across the Cham­ber. But v,. ar: cksir .)ll'J of seeing the people uplift. d, anl arc rtnxiou• to give them an opportunity of uplifti1•:' thmllscl.-os, and if the members of the Government were in Parnc ·; in the d sin• to ec "' the people made b•' tor. and placed on a higher plane of life, with added prosperity, they vould not f• .J,;: to draw a red herring acro'.·> the tr;cck b:; defcatiug t~JC uotion 'brought for­war,d by the hon. mcn)bcr for Oxley. If they would support the motion, they would, by ~o doincs, be conferrill:?; an cveri\ro,-v'inrr bene­fit upon the people :)f nr'"cnslftnd. I think the opportunicy has been taken to move the amendment propos£J by the hon. mem­ber •: ho has ju,t rcmmcd his ·cat solelv in or?er to de.fertt the {;ood purpo,ce which ''"' m the mind of th0 hon. member for Oxle:: when he proposed the motion.

1\Tr. SI7,ER (Tunclah): I think the hon. me1•1bcr for Oxle:c is to b~ complimented for having broucht this !lbtlcr before the House. I am ·.urprised that the Premier should it in the Chamber and hear the scathing r":>n1arks of tho hon. member for Oxle:v, and then allow one of his supporters to move a idetracking amendnwnt rather than answer tlw deliberate char"'~'· made rtgainst him in connection vcith "" Liberty Fair." Hon. rnembors oppo:;itE.: aro always calhng out to u3 that \Ye are supporting the profiteers. There is a little coteric of men. not more than three, ·c·ho are making mone:· fn c::tor than an: profiteers in Bri.:Jb 1,ne, and yet hon. m•,:mbei'S opposite, when a definite motion is brought forward, sidetrack it bv an amendment. without saying one word about them: The most contc mptiblc pro­fiteermg gomg on, to my mind, is in the form of a:1 " Allies Cit~·," when the men et.and ot:h!dc and appeal to the people to g:1ve the:r !lloney to the boy". appealing to the patrwt1sm of rt mother who has a bov at th"l front, to whom sho is anxious to giv'c money to lwlp, knowing that f.J per cent. of that money is r:;oing jnto the hands of two or thr•ce people. 'The hon. member who moved the amendment h. s sidetracked the !llotion, and by doin1' that I take it that he 1s su12porting that little coterie, rather tlnn comm::' out and standing behind them, to pro1 e that hD is conscientious when he cndoavoun to de'll vcith the profitGers.

Hon. \Y. H. B.IRXES: Thev are rtbsolutely afraid. "

::IIr. SIZER : Tlwv arc afraid. Possibly tho Pr,'nlicr \Yill roPlY 00 I \\ill not take Ufl much time. The "~ther point the hon. lE(- n1hrr for Oxlcy nFntioned in connection with the Anzac eottag,, is perfectly true.

'.I'h" PR'C'IIER: The debate is not likelv to end to-do.y if you continue. "'

Yfr. SIZER: The Premier is evidently not r~ .. 'parcd for ±1

'le homb·hcll which' l1as been thrown in b:~~ the hon. lll01nbcr for Oxl0v.

The PRDTIER : I am quite prepared fm: it.

::'1r. SIZEE: The Pr mior would be onlv too plea· 0d to gin• it a dired denial if he f'on1c1 brforo he got vcrv far. EvPrvboclv kn-ew' th11t what the hon." member for 'Oxlev eaid with rec:a,·d to the Anzac fund is cor­rc•'t. The san1e IIHln \Vho 'is running this

particular businees is also running that busi­nco.J. \Ve know that the men who are run­ning these eide shove> are wme of the lowest eh c; of men-~omc of the men who have b,·pn hunted off race 'ourses and with whom ordinary citizens would not care to associate. Thev have been allowed to come back. I •,cent on the tram with one, who did not lcno•.;,· mo. and he passed the remark to his fric·ncl, ''If only this thing goes on for another year I don't care a hang whatever h:1pp0ns.''

The PR 7 o!IER: Do you know that the Quccl'''land patriotic fund applied for the use of the " cet-rich-quick " and " spinning jenny"?

Hon. \V. H. B.IR:c-;ES: I do not know th& The PRE}IIER : You are a.;king for it. Hon. \Y. H. B..,RXES: No, I am not.

}h. SI7,L;R: The hon. gentleman cannot point to the Red Cross in Queensland resort­in:-:; ·~o ~uch dcvicus n1eans to get money, or to the LaYcwbr Da· movement. You can­not <t: that the Young Men's Christian ..:\.s· o1_jation Lavc ever been short o£ money, ;end tlw:· have not had to re:oort to gamb­lin•r. \Yhy is •his? There is that little c-ot •rio ih ere; someone is behind it with influ''H~, nnd they are not inclined to put their foot down.

Hon. \\'. H. B.IRXES: Fancy allowing 50 per cc:Jt. to be paid.

Tho P;·E'IIER: You rtre on the Queensland Patriotic Fund.

:;,.rr. SIZER: Something has been said. cJbout the ''Rising Sun City." I am in­clined \J think that it has done some good in this r.- p~ct: that before it started the profits o[ this littlc coterie were 50 per cent., but the ,; Rising Snn City'' people were more .m<:C<e,sful. mvl wero able to beat them down to 30 per cent. I think the figures with T<'<~ard to the profits mentioned by the hon. u•<mber for Oxley were correct. I know the littk c:Jtcrio got as their share in one case £270.

Illr. C'OLLIXS: \Yhy don't you expose them a.:; a public Inan?

:\h. SIZER : That is why I have taken this onnortunity now. These are the people hon. {n~Jmbers opposite ar0 supporting. The Premi0r is sidetracking, and dare not show hi h··nd on it.

l\lr GLEDSOX: It is a matter for the Com­lnUn\v0:::tlth Govcrnrnent.

:\h. SIZF.R: Hon. members opposite are ahn.v·, inoiincd to fly to the Commonwealth for protection, but if there is any little r·redit belonzing to the Commonwealth Go­ycrnmont thr·v will claim it. I sincerely hope tlu:t th" "result of this motion, we shall

'··ome dcfmite action taken by the Go­,< 2rnn1ent in refusing permits for gambling, be< ausC', if they allow it publicly, logically •;ocakinu:. the" c,.nnot nrosecute the man who ,{or> i~ 'priYately. ~

The PRE21!IER: If :\Ir. Barncs applies, shall I r( :u~c him'?

Hon. \Y. H. Bt,RXES: Yes. The PRE;11JER: If the patriotic fund ap­

plies 'I Hon. W. H. BARl'<ES: 'ThC' patdr tic fund

is not l·.lr. BarnH. I am trea,.urer, but only one. (GoYernment laughter.)

Mr. Sizer.]

744 [ASSEMBLY.] Raising :Money.

llr. SIZER: I do not care whether it is the Premier m· an>one else· monev can be raised without rf'soi·ting to g~mbling.

The PP.DimR : \Vhen a man is attempting to nwkc J?Olitic nJ capital, it is just as well to , x:pos:-~ rt

=.rr. SIZER: I do not talk about one mem­bc·i of the Hou··O more than another. If 'funey can;1ot . be made without gambling, u., awcc_v With 1t, and tax the people for the amount. Let tlw people who haYe ~ot it pav £( 1' i:. b ~

Tlw l'HE:JIIER: :'.ToYe ::.u aincnc1mPnt.

• f1·. SIZJ<:H : Let us do that rather than d: troy the 1 H rality of tbc young _r genera­DUlL

. '>lr. BEBBINGTC?l\": I have always under­H ;od, \Vllrn applying for a permit for a drav:ing or anything like that, it is granted on condition thElt. no ]H'rson n1akf's anv profit ont o£ it. We have had it stated thO:t certain men ar: making .£200 pet· night and ho>.Y i' it that the Government "ant to' side­:trr:,..k t~ii. 1notion.

The l'nt • ~r; n : \Y 0 do not.

Cl!_r- BEBBIKGTON: vVhy did ou "put up ;;otn· 111ernber to nJ.ove an amendment?

The SPEAKER: The hon. member is not in mdcr in imputing that a member was '• put up" to do a certain thing.

:\Ir. BEBBIXGTON: vVe know what the pdl't,'V ('llStOJ:ll i~.

Nfr. KTRW.\X : I sec.

:\Ir. BEBBIKGTO:t\: "\ud you know it. The I'RD!IER : Your party custom?

Mr. BEBBINGTON: We know perfectly well that wlwn a Minister has something he does not like to do he can always get somebody to do it. \Ve can only come to the conclusion that the hon. member was "put up " to do it.

The SPEAKER; Order l The hon. mem­ber is deliberately doing something that I asked him not to do.

Mr. BEBBIXGTON: Out of due roopect to you, J\Ir. Speaker, I will say that the hon. member did it perhaps on his own ac­cour:t. It is certainly sidetracking the motwn, and the Government agree with it. When anybody asks for a permit, he is always told at the Crown Law Office that it will be granted on conclition that no person makes a?y pro!lt out of it, an<l that is perhaps the nght thmg- to do. I am not disagreeing with that, but here, surely, when we have it shown straight out that permits have been granted to people who ar'l making £200 a nirrht out of it, I th'ink it is the Government~'s dutv nm to sidctrae1c the issue but to make inquirie'> into it and pnt ~n end to it at once, whatever it may be for. It is most unfor~t:'1.lh that people are asking on this q_uestwn. "Is thQ Government in symp.tthv with crime?" '

The PRE:\!IER: I\ ame '•omebody who said that.

Mr. BEBBIKGTOX: Thew havP done away with C'1pital puni,·hmenf. They h;;vc had 6o,·eral pri ,:mers released. Tlw -· hav, granted pC'rLlit;; for people to gL:nhi :), and here we hrtvc it stated in this House to­night th ,t the lnLD are making £200 a night. I am ne'· blaming the Premier, if he has not known these? things. I did not know them

fMr. 81:-.fr.

myself, but I say that I hope, after it has been brought forward and the Premier has had these things rev,.,aled to him, that from this afternoon a stop will be put to it, and these men will no longer be alfowcd to make such profits. ~\.ne!, apparently, the last speaker ha" knowledge that somf! people con­nected with it were not of the reputable character they ought to bo. How were those people brought in under patriotic funds? How did th0_v come to be in their company? He;w ·did they corn<' to engage them? And how did the GoYornment come to grant permits to those p•·op!e? Those are ques­tions that the Government should inquire ir:to.

The PnE~fi~ll.: \Vhom are you referring to regarding permih in this 1vay?

::Jir. BEBBIXGTON : Did not the last : pc·dcer say that ".:Jmo people connected with ic have been put off racecourses?

:\Ir. KmwA": 'J'he promoter•· got the per­mits-they did not.

:VIr. BEBBI""GTOX: Why did th<e Govern­mc·nt not make a condition that the persons who s;ot the permit;; should uce them? Hern is a niro stato of thinv,s-it is the custom to grant a permit to a person who can transfer it to anybody else, irrespective of the char­acter of the man who ueos it: and I am told, when I :csk for rt permit for some little drrtwing in the country, that it will h~ gro'lt·'d only on ccmdition that nobody makr' a profit out of it.

The PREMIER : Do you want to make a profit? Do you vmnt us h do away with that condition?

'\Ir. BEBBINGTO:t\: No; certainly not. I say you should grant' it on the same condi­tions. Let the person who ~;ets the permit use it-I would not grant it on any other condition. These revelations are rather as­tounding- to me. I have never gambled a ,hilling in my life, and I was quite astounded uhen a member stated here that permits had been grantPd, and men were making £200 a night out of it. I hope sincerely that from to-night the Premier 'will adopt this principle-that a person who applies for a permit will get it to use it himself, and if he is not going to use it, then he should tell the person's name who is going to use it, so that the Premier can see that that person is someone of reputable char­acter, and he is not making money out of g·rmbling.

The PREMIER: We do that already. It must be tho fault of .;.omebodv else that there is some subsequent miecai·riage.

J\1f BEDDING TON: There must be, if people are making £200 a night out of it, and people who have• been warned off race­cour~·,; :.u·0 c >nducting thern.

Hon. \V. H. BARNES: It IS ab~olutely '\V"Ollg".

The PRE:\IIER: vVhat do the patriotic funds allo'-. .r to their promoters?

::\1r. F!IZER : Tho patriotic fund has never r lloweJ ~;ccn1bling.

Mr. DEBBINGTON: I hope sincerely that t ho Premier ,;ill is vue orders for the recall of these permih, CYery onc-(hcar, hear!)­tlc!at ewry one of them sh ·,11 be recalled and in futuro shall onlv be issued on his own approval. ·

Mr. MoRGAK: I~sue none at all.

Gambling Devic,•s for [~ JULY,] Raising 1lfoney. 745

:\h. BEBBE\GTON: I think that if thev "'TC issued on his own <1pproval he would not issue them to a person of questionable <Jharacter, an~ I sincerely l:ope. that to­morrow mornmg every permit will be rD· e,c,llPd anLl v e ~hall •hear no more of thi''·

. Ho);. \Y. H. BAR::\ES (Bulirnba): I would Irk<' to t" ke the o:Jportunitv at this juncture of rait:ing ,n, point of ordc.\~ \Yith regard to th0 ameEdment. ::'.1y point i,, that the amond­.:rlf n_ fiou.~ht to be t-acked on to the n1otion }g .~.t: )1~n,,l~-, :irrc~;'Y;tnt. and -._hat it is a_Jto­...;et.; ·1 .:_' dt:'·sH·_e of i11e ·"Ope of thP lllO\ ·.)n. I --~.-ouL1.likc tu ask ~-ou, nrr . .Sp0aker, for your ruhn,:; on th'- :- :;_1articular point.

ThP SPEAKER: It i< within the Jlrovince of tl~' IIou~e to ·d~al -v:ith Hu~ an1endment. The a mPHchnont has to do w-ith gan1bling, and thf> subject-1natter of the Inotion i:; gamblin•'. arHl >\·hih the latter part of the an1' ~c!n1f'!lt i . not rcle ant, still the House ha~-. thP nght to n•fuse to exprc,.; an opinion upon the motion. cm<;! ma.\' supersede it with an amendment of different in:: port. I nlle tho fin1endn1ent in order. e , llox. \:~. H. BARJ\'ES: That being so. I

smtll aYall Ill'"><'lf for a. few minuth of th'c opportnnit~\· oi reft:'rring to the motion whic!1 h•ls been •,o nlJly moved bv thu hon mcm!wr for Oxky. I am quite sr~rc. bv the anxietv that :•;a. shown b;.· th-, Pr,•mi'er and othe.r· member of 7lk Cabinet, that what tho hon. meh>,bPr' for OxlPy did was to throw what was er]· ;olutely <1 homh,~wll into the camp.

Tlw l'nE~IIER : Y on had r.1orc rer,son for anxiety th:• \l I had.

Hox. \Y. H. BARNES: I am sorrv to se<.' that, a matter eo vital 'o the intei·est, of Queen ,]and ·.; r.s trr·at0d lr oome hon. mem­l-<£~rf; on the o·lher j,dc as· if jt had no con­('Crl1 to i_.}1e con1n1un.itv f{f'neral1v. Bv inter­jection th~ Prcnli _ r · s~ught t~ jnalul the assertion t!1 t tlw Qne,·nsland patriotic· fnnrl 1v~ere . ~.,_0olnng to ;adopt tlw sa1nc tncthods eL ~·a1s1ng 111011(":7 as have been referred to and sough~ t? l~ring 1ny nanE' into it per~ 'onal!y. It IS known that I am treasurL'r of thl' patriotic fund. but I do saY that Whether it is the patriotic funrJ or anY other fund that ccpplies for .authoritv to engage in gu1nbling. they fft.re {'Oll1mi'ttinp; a . huge blunder and, committing a great ID!Sllke, <:nd tlw Prcnner knows that matters of that kmd. ar? _carried by a majority-not by ,1 "'Intd.o lll{hv1dual.

The PRE~IIER : Did you oppose it"

Ho);. y.,·. H. BAR~ES : I mn not here to lm cro;s-queJtimwd bv the leader of the Governmenr. All I can ~a.- is that I hav<' never vot.ed in 1ny life for 'raising money in th·,t particular way. (Hear, hear!)

The PF"t:\IIER: Did ,-ou vote against it?

Ho:-;. \Y. H. BARXES: 1 do not bcc,ito.b' to '-<Y that action would ha Ye been taken in <'Onnoction 1vith son10 of these n1ntters if it had not ber'n that behind the "·hole> b!hine"' there as th0 politi< :-,! machine \<·hich the Pr~1nier. and hi:, colle:' gucs are ltfraid to 'Couc'l. That is the m« chine that ''· ,_s behind the IYhoJe t:.1in£t.

Tl P'lDIT~;.: I ndurallv hesitatd to rcfu ,e th0 application 1.vhrn I~f~,"~ "';our naLlC a" trefl.;urcr. ·

Hox. \\'. H. B . .U~C\ES: \Vhat has that got to ~-'' -,ith tlw norccntao;e of 50 pH (mnt.? l.hc- nrn. TllCmher for Oxley to~night l1u-: r.J i ':d :t point that iP. goin?' tO clo:c''' '-up

the efforts that are going to be made for patriotic purpose,, He drew the attention of the House to the fact that in connection with one of the most rcc<mt efforts the amount that was taken by the stalls was onh- a bout £400, whereas from gambling th0rc "''"' a rc-trun of about £5,800. I say­'.nd I -c)} not care whether I am c<1lled a "vvo;Yscr" or not in this Ilouse-it is {l. dis­-craec to tlw community and it is a disgrace to tb0 Government which permited that kind of thing. (H r. hear!\ I unhesitatingly '"Y that from my place in this Chr.mlwr to­ni0:h.... \Vlrlt h~t, ·lltpncnc·d? The Prcn1icr k11o1.rs that there nre ''7 on1cn in this citv •Yho be\·, <\1n- and ar0 doing Inagnificerit "\York for pcttriotic and other purposes, and is it "'wt a ft .• ,~t ~hat tho~e on1en .rgain and again rnake d0rnands: ray, upon the trading ( mnmunih~ fo1· Uf'·',Istance trnvards thost• effort·,? How are they met? ThPy are met as thev 'h0'1lcl b-· md lw every man who f,,,,ls th,,•t it i,, ·hi· dutv' to tr\· to assist. \Yhat i" going to be the clfc:t o£ the revela­tion n;ade so clear to us to-m;tht bY the hon. member for Oxlcv" I am quit2 "certain-I am prerarcd to ,admif as one of tho com­mnnitv-that I shall hesitate rather thmi r:ivc· 1~1ouev or 0'{vxls. \vhich arc equivalent to mone,. 'ao-ain towards objects which are helping to ,;ako mon fat in a bu,iness that is demor, ]i;ing· in the extreme. I thought that th0 Govci·nment >vere out to r-et at the profltee1·s. _,

The PRE:IIIER: So they are. Hox. W. H. BARC\ES: The>· an' very

-1m'-. m'v I be ,]]owed to sa-c, in getting at their oo i:r proftter ;.;ng tbrm1~h tlw political ,,..·chine, because that has been shown clearly, ThP Premier laughs.

The l'RE1IIER: I am thinking about your t.-,-.-in;r to got at the National Political Coun­cil funds. (Government laughter.)

Ho);. vV. H. BARNES: It has been shown cl0arlv that those p('oplo w·ho arf' behind the Go.-ernment are the ones who have had f'l)cC'ial privileges for_ carr.::ing on g·a1n~li_ng. vYh:v? Because it was gomg to the political m,,chine. That is what has been happening in Queensland. This Government, who are su ppDsod to be above all kinds of suspicion, who are supposed to be showing The way in morals and evervthing else, have shown the wav in such a manner that the statements of the hon, rr,ember for Oxley have not been gainsaid, have shown the Way in the. direc­tion of allowing 50 per Dent. to therr own friends in this connection. The hon. mem­ber for Oxlev was quite right in pointing out that api)arently there are degrees in gambling.

The PREliiiER: He ought to know. Ho);. W. H. BARNES: A man can gamble

under the very nose of the police if. in so -doing. hE> is out to help som_e political assoc­i •ticn of which the Prem1er may be th<> nominal head.

Mr. BEBBIKGTON : Scandalous ! UO);. W. H. BARJ'\ES: But let him come

alonu; and (""t into a building and ~amble i the same way, and the police come -along anr1 arrc;;,~ him.

ThP Pn~m:R: Is it suggested that there­We·', "t\· J-up'' at ;my of the'e places?

iT oN. \Y. H. BARNES: I do 11ot know '.··h:>t:, ~r there was "two-up," but apparently t-hPrB i a law for one class of the communit:.Y and not for another cla,,s of the cc t!1nunity.

The PRE~IIER: \Yhich chs'. is the law for?

Hon. JV. If. B,:rnPs.]

746 Bri,<ba <c Trwnm-: Fa, s Bill. [ASSEMBLY.]

HoN. W. H. BARNES : For the fellow who played the garr,e you referred to.

Tho SPE},KER: The hon. member at the outsd of his remarks .asked for a ruling as to .,,hcther the amendment was in order. I refer him to page 253 of the 12th edition

·of "Ma:·." which deals with the quc·tion of an1C.ilchnents 'vhich arc not relevant " l\fay" says-- ·

" The general practico in regard to LmondmenL is explained on page 258 : but hcr0 such amendments only will be ment:oned as are intended to cv.ade an exprc eion of opinion upon the main (jUe,twn by entirely altering its mPan-m:; '-'~ld object. This i., eff<>rt cl I• movillg the 0111i~sion of all the words of tl1e que,;tion after the word "That" at the beginning, and by the substitution of. other words of a different import. 1f thrs amendrr,ent be agreed to by the ~Iou::e, it i~,, clear tl1at no oninion is ~;x:pre~;scd dire?tlJ: upon the m~in ques­don. because 1t rs determined that th" original :wm·ds sh.al! not stand part of the questwn; and the sense of the I-Iou>" is aft- n"ards taken directly upon the sub'·tltuted word~, or practicalh upon a now· quf''3tion." ..

Lat~r on it states, on page 254-" This practi<;e has been often objec~:ed

to as unfair; but the objcc•ion is un­foulf~ed, as the W'_akT party must ~lways. <mtrc1pate defeat in one form or another.''

And, furthc·r, it says-" There are modes by which a question

may be intentiona!lv aYoidcd or -uper-sedcd." "

At 7 r/cl(Jck ;_;.m. the Hou,~c. in accor!7-r.nr, tvith Sr,;,.:o,wl Order, prorecd~d <Cith Govern­ment bz:,,'?.nrs.-s.

BRISR,\XE Tc\A_),1\Y,\Y F".RES BILL.

1~ITL\TIO~.

The HOME SECRETARY (Hm1. J. Huxhe.m, Buranda), in. moving-

" That th,• House wiil .at its next sitting-, rE:'' olye it.,, :-lf into' a, CommittE.'c of the \\'hole to consider of the desirable­ness of_ intro{lucing " Bill to regulate the far:_c-J 111 l~'~poct of tho tntffi.c on tlL Brrsbane trarnway,''

said: The Bill which is be [n<: iu"roduecd now _is the ;;:a:t-iH~ Bill a3 was br~uxht in la~-t Parliament. It coycr~ tlw e ,tabli chment of ld. section~, IYhich ar_• to bo not lc--s tban 1 n1ilo in 1c~n£.?·th, and the qn{':-<tion of fares is also provi{>~·c:. for, \\heru there etre n1orc than tvvo '5CUion~. Thobe fares ar(' not to ex:;erd tl: ._. i:1 OJ?ern1:ion at the lot ,July of th1s y~a .·. ·Th~ B1ll r:roYides t! ~t a rcYision of the ronte·, c·tion ·. un£1 fares n1av be made _o1: . the nppl:i<'.~tion o: tho ccn11~any. the :vrn_11ste1·, ur an57 c-ouneil. to n, f:~·lprt'Ir...: Court JUdgf', who shall prc· •Tihc what he deem~ f_air in regard to a.ny dispute that Inay ar1~c het-..-,-pc_'n i he C'.JlnpanY and th" Governn:ent. The prnyisions of the Bill dealing with the SUI'!llu~ ar" the : e1me. TheY provide tha~ if thcr0 is any 'll"plue o• 2r ·5 per cent., rt has to ]p utilioecl fOl· nn: ?xtension.s or in1~>rovf'n1 'nh: and if th::t JS not _<ionP h,- thn con111any. th0.~ovcrnor in Council rnay n11I:~ the: nccf'·""ary proYision for the surph" gomg- mto the consolidated

[Hon. W. H. Bm·ne;.

revenue.-. 111e qE0stions: in dis11uto a1·e to be cleci-ded by the judge in open court, and his dctermin:ttion i~ to be final. It is also pro­vided that the company may make any extension. Hon. members v. ill note that in the Bill bc>fore the last Parliament it was provided th;->t cer~Bin sections in c!anFe 1 and dam., 2 pl'ovidcd for certain of the s£'ction ~; not applying, ?O A ... >.r as the Govern­Incnt >VCrO COnCCl'1F:;d. tJ.lh2t (:QYC~·:; the general quesiimB contained in the Bill, and if hon. rncinbL'l'f' \V,t'l~. further information I vdll be happy to give it. But there is no difference betv;con the Bill no\v and v1hcn it was brou:::ht in the la.·t time, >ctYc in the directions I h, ,-c str:JPd.

Questions pnt and pG1sed.

BRISHA:c-m TfL\:\1\:VAY Pl~RC.E-L-\.SE

BILL.

Ixrn.\:..Iox.

The HO::\IE f'iECRETARY. m 'nonng--'" That tthc I-Iouse ,\~i1l, Lt its next

'itting, resolYe itself into a Committee of the \Vhole to consider of the de~iraLle­ncFs of introaucir~ .a. Bi~l to provi(le for the nu re ha~~ of the a•1thori,• 1 tramway in thr. city cf Briibano, tho tity of Soutl! Brisbane, ard their suburbP/'

sui cl: The purcha~e o ~ the tran1w:1y vvill or~,:,ratc in Sc-ptPrllh-r, 1920. Provision i:; n1.atle that if i: i tatrn OY r, arronu;r lTIC'nts may be made by the local a-uthorities with the Go\~C'rllnlcnt for the tran1way to pas::J into the hands of d1e lonl authoritie,. It closely protects t.he local authoritir,~ in their right·, a.ud, ai · r it p: , i~;to the·. I:- and: of the (iovcrncnc~nt, alln unt11 p:t'OYI~Ion 1s n1adu for the purchrr 2 of the trann\ ay by th8 local a1·~horities. the Commissioner for Railways \Yill be officer in char~1e of <w tratn\vay 'Y'tem. In regard to the methods of pay­Inent for the tfann;aY '"·hen it is taken over by the Govcrn:n,.nt, Lit may be paid for in debontnrc_-·,, at ~~ P--'r cent., and having a currency u.f t\v-u1""y~orw =,ears. It is puTel:y optional with the company whether they will h:,vo cash or d•bentures. The Bill pro­tccte the compan:·, and it aho protects thos<C who acquire the tramway. There is no ques­tion of any 5poliation or taking advantage of the company, and if there are any dis­pute~ between the co·npam:- and the Govern­ment they can b,' adjusted by a court.

Ho~. \Y. H. B~-\.HXES: The Home Secre­tftry informed us, in connection with this proposal, that it w:: ... optional with tho com­pany whether they were llaid ir. cash or took debrntur; ' ".vith a curr. 'lr-y of hY0nty­one years. H<l aLo discloecd tl1o fact that. in connection with thio Bill, the intention v:as that tho le :nl auihorit;cs Rhould, if th€'y \Yishr J, haYO the rid>t to control the tram .

The HO}~E EEcrrTARY: After the GoYcrn­rncnt !Jas tak, n tlwn1 oYer.

r:ox. W. I-I. BARNES: After the Govern­ment has taken th0m OY<'r in 1920. One point tlY hen. IneinbPr ,,-as not vCry clear about ... nd th[s probably may in some re­spcc-cs, as far r the G ovornment and the cod~pany an" C'oncernu:l, be the crux of the position. and th et is the question as to how th~y may get over tho difficult,:- of finding­out what the purchase price is to be. I cm re:cdilv und<>rstand that in that direction t.h(']'f' muv be socno difficultv in connection Yl'ith th·c 'tr.nL-nction. Howev0r, this is not

Land Act [4 JULY .. ] 747

the place to zo into details of that kind. I am sure this will be one of thos·:· Bills which will rccciv0 from cverv member of th<:l Hou '8 the fulleP'· considei·ation, and I am quite cnrtain it will be the desire of both sides to look into thi., mcot closely, especially as the local authoritius are intcreoteod in it.

Question ptlt and passed.

LAND ACT AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2).

SECOKD HE.\DIKG-RESUkiPTION OF DEBATE.

HoN. W. H. BARNES: Before the Bill gN· throug-h its '•·cond reading, I would like to make a few remarks. I think the probability .is that I should not have made any more remarks upon this measure if it had not been k'· the speech of the hon. member for Grogory and probably the speech of the Hon. the Minister for Education. If I followed the hon. member for Gregory cor­rectly, at one stage of his speech he prac­tically, I think, laid down a new principle, and I do not know whether that principle is going to be accepted by the Government of the State. I understood the hon. member to say that in certain circumstances it would be quit~ fair to break any agreement or any contract. In other words, it did not matter how valuable a scrap of paper might be from a point of view of morality, under certain circum Ltnces, if it so happened that an agreement was not satisfactory, he would be quite prepared to tear it up.

Mr. PoLLOCK: If it were unjust. Mr. BERTRA}!:, He said if it were in the

interests of the people.

Hox. W. H. BARNES: I can quite under­stand and belieYc it possible that in the interests of the people it would be better for them if certain agreements were torn up, but I also recogni,u the bigger principle that when an agreement has been made it is a f<1cred thing, and there is only one way by which that agreement may be got over. Let mn say at once that I am quite prepared to admit, on the information supplied by the Mini ... tcr for Public L'}nds, that as far as the rcntals are concerned between the pas­toralist.o and the resumed areas in most cases, the pastoralists have a distinct advantage. But I want to ,,ay from my position in the House to-night that notwithstanding all that, it has no bearing upon th.:· subject at all. The question is: r .. , there an agreement which was made in good faith? And if that agreement was made in good faith the Go­vernment have no right to break it. It is against all the principles of equity and jus­tic0, and I ,,-ould like to say before I sit down that this is another matt0r which may be very far-reaching in its effects if it is carried out. Arrain, I say that, no doubt, the pastoralists have had a very good innings indeed·, but that jc .. not the point. Let me use an illustration. If the Minister for Pub­lic Lands Ins an ac:;roement with me extend­ing over a numb€'1' of years, which, when it was made, was an agreement that as far as we could sro wa·. a fair and reasonable onE>. Supposing I had made some contract which was an unsatisfactorY contract. that i.. mv fault, a1 d not the fault of the Hon. th.e Minister, and you mu t apply that to a large oxtent in connection with the affairs d the Stat'.

Th0 S:cm:T.iRY FOR PUBLIC LD;D~ : Y on <:'annot apply .an agre0rncnt benveen tYv .. o

indjvidunL in Ju~ same \Yav :13 you can r:n bct.• .... , .. ,·"n an indiv.iduat' and a per­

eomothing in trust.

Hoer. \\:. H. BAllNES: Take some firm in the cii_::· ·who aru acting as tru.·~toos-say, for exam plc, the Queens! a w! Trustee''· If I tah:e fror::1 them a propr'rty on a lease fron1 tho r utics for '" hom th"."' arc acting, t~at is ju ;t as bind in ... as if they wore the prm­cipal .....

Thn S!c .. 'ilETHtY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: If they­"sold "-to n c a c Jmn1on tcrn1-the persons fo!_· ,;ho~ theY \verc truste~s, thoro is no court of equi'y. in the world that would give thern rcdrz..ss.

HoN. \V. H. BARXES: It would be a most oxcnptional ea e, the one the lVIini•tor refers to. I thrrefol't?· say, if you allo\v tl-0 argu­ment ucod bv the hon. member for Gregory to cbtain, t11cn ·vou ttre ~oing to strike at the verv foundation of all that is gond in the commuid:.... _'end m'ly I emphasise this point: t1l~l.t -;on are fT,Oin~', to go-perhap3 uncon, ·i mJy_:_along the lirie which I re­marked by intcrj< ction was promulgated. at Mar:"boron;:;h by the Hon. . Mr. Demai!'e. Re( .lUSe [ found th~t particular OCCaSlOll' "\VUS the oc, a:-::ion on v, hi rh the Prcrnif'r p:aYo bis bk -<·ing· to \\'hat ~\lr. DP1naine said. This is what }.1r. Den1aine said-

" ThP fond hope that eomo of them have th tt '_th ·y n1ay b0co~11e employers and 0xploiters of labour m duo course. mu.t be dispelled."

?t<r. O'SuLLIVAx : Hear, hear! HoK. IV. H. B.\R~ES: 'The Iron. member

for Kennedy ,.a, , "Hear, hear!" Then :i'.Ir. Domain,' went on to say-

'' Thc~e a.re, of cour"·2. ner:t<s:\ry during the traneition period from wagodom to £rccclon1. ''

I find in conn<Oction with that very same< spee('h that J ~r. Dcmaine was singing out abou'i the co,nmon <nYnership. It seems to me that, behind this pr0pocal, and behind the '•'lg"estion made by +he hon. member for Gregory, you are leading-p<'rhaJ?S uncon­sciously-to,yards con1mon 01.vnersh1p.

The SECRETARY FOR PDBLIC LANDS : Do Y<JU

think it ,,-i!] lead to that under this Bill?

HoN. IV. H. BARXES: Probably it will. I sav that to r,atisfv the Minister. The fact rtn1ains that, since" this Bill 'X as bro~1ght. in, steps have bPcn taken in a·nother dn·ectron, and if this Bill i> na .. ,ed it mig;ht put a weapon in tl1·'ir hands which will be danger­ous in rloys to come. If it is correct to attack a Contract b8C·ll!c8 it happens to be wrong, then ·, Jme day an attac_k may be made upon the \vorkc,·s' dwellmgs. The Government may say to the owner of a worker's dwelling, "\Vhen we erected your home 'oc,rs '"o vonr land was only worth se much:· To-·da~v 'it i> worth FO much more, and we arc gn.ire: to take it."

The SEC'RET.IRY FOR PrBLIC LANDS : Tho monf' <. w ·.. not rtdYanl'od on the land, but on ti{" builc\inc:.

Hox. \Y. H. BARJ\iF.S: The money wa: advauccd lariTelv on the original coet of the land. " "

'l'hP PR>:}l!l'R: \Vill you acu'pt mv assur­ancP th~t 1v~ nre not going to do what you '3UY ·~

HoN. W. H. B.\RNES: The Premier may­be able to give that r :u·a'1°CC to-day, but

Hon. W. H. Ban~es.]

748 [ J .. SSE:NIBL Y.] Amendmnd Bill (No. 2).

later on he may not be able to give it at all. The same argument would apply to farmers absolutely. If we passed this Bill we are giving a fearful weapon, from the point of view of the State, and a weapon which the Government at some period may , .. i,h they had not undertaktn.

The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC LA~DS : It will ~lrivc capital out of tho country, I snpposc.

IIo~. W. H. BARNES : There is no need f0r the hon. P1CrnbC'r to furnish n1c ·with <t

t:Jpccch. I \vill s.1y som{'thing on the finan­cial oide of the quLtion directly. One o[ the a:n:un1e~c·h P..3ed bv the hon. IL('11lb2r for GrP .;1::_,. and the- ~:IiniSter for Public lL.c.truc­tion wae th•.1t a great nn ·b<.r of thee.· peopl<! we1'c outside ~lw State, and it did not matter, Lccaus·. they '·ere out•iclc the SLtc.

The SECReTARY FOR P~BLIC L.~DR: I don't think such an argurncut "n·as u~.cd.

Ho~. \'\. H. I3 \PXES: The hon. member for Mite hell said last ni .·ht that th0 old pioneer" had passe-d a\· ay.-

Mr. POLLoc;: He said th<'Y had been pushed onL "

Hox. \Y. H. BARKES: I accept that cor­rection. Boca uoc thcv ha YC been pnshod out, that is on0 of rhc reasons \vh-~, the IfH'n \.Yho took up theil" land on certaill, terms should als0 be pnsh£C·I out. 'I'he~o men in manY eau·« were pw hod out bC>c,w,c of the drouP;ht and the bad 8t'8.'ons thev had tn contu1d with. \Ye know that the; dro'i,:;ht c :me along and decimated their holdinw. of stock. The ftcct i'cn1ain::5 that tl1C'l'f' ha:-1 been a period in conncd.io,. y.-ith the lifo of a st.1tion that the<· have not boon abh to nwct their finnn­cial obligations. Probably that ma• have been the n aeon why they were pushed out. It do0s not matter whether the mPn who own +hesc stations ttre in the State ~r not. Surely •.1 o "re• not go in" to have it pro· claimed bro:1dc 1~t tha.t lH~<'::tusc a n1an does not li Ye in the fit 1 tc; he is not g-oing to get justic0. Is that to be laid down as the policy and principle of the present Go­vc·rnrnent?

The l'RE:ll:IER: No one say,; that at all.

HO!'!. W. H. BARKES : That argument has been used, that many of the stations are held by men outside the State.

'I'he PRE>IIER: That "as merelY a state-ment of facts. •

HoN. W. H. BARXES: The Premier will have an opportunity of replying. and I am sure every member on this side will be onlv too delighted to listen to him. The effect of this Bill, if carried into law, is g~ing to de.moralise the 0ommnnity generally. I m1ght make rmother point to the Premier,. and it he' a bigger bc•aring on this m11ttm· than some mcmlwn of thn Gov.crnm• nt ~hink. If Queensl!'nd is to carrv on iL policy of progrP•·s, 1t can only do it bv spending mone J. I don't think the uost C'i:treme Labour man could g< t up to-night nnd say that it would h• po~ ible to fin".noe Queen;­lancl at pr-·<ent 11:ithou~ :~etting fman~ial r '"~istanc0 from the for,~i::rn n1arkets. Therr­\\~as a tirnc \vhc:1 the pr0Sent Treasur~r said th;d we slwuld not bon-ow more then £500,000 p·:r ,, nnun1, but vvhcn h~ obt::tinf'd the reins of office it "'.v:. fo1-.Hl tl1~1t the ~~~nFnr"t thC' St:1te V\7 anted run into n1illion::-:. Thit' is a young St-·.tP, and it eannot Le. developed

[Hon. W. H. Barne-:'.

properly without spending money, and spend­ing it reasonably. I do not say that we should spend money in a careless and in­dil1'<:rcnt way, but ·we can only prosper by a rcasonabh• expenditure of money.

'I'hc PRE>IIER: Such as we arc doing now.

Hox. W. H. BARKES: I do not admit ihct. I !er.,.,- the Goycrnment are spending money, but not, in a proper ·way. Figura­t;voly sp. ,.,king, the Government arc putting their hlflnds in the taxpayers' pockets in ordc'r to carry out the policv of thC' PrPmier and make them "squeaL" (Laughter.)

'l'h·• Sr~clET.\.RY FOR Pl-BLIC INSTRUCTION: .-:\.rP th0y 'quealing?

IIo~. W. H. DARXES: Yes, and I heard tt1c hon. gcnth_:.m:\.n hirnself squenling last mg!Jt. (Laughter.) I was referring to the que· tion of finance in relation to this Bill, n-. it has a most vital bearing with Tegard to th. progress of this State, and I ·ask the ]'remicr to look at it from that standpoint. If WP arP goino: to create in the minds of the peoplE' fron1 w·hon1 "'Ye gc-~_· our rnoney a f(oar that \YP do not ke.?.p our C')ntructs, then \>~.·hen "\YP con1c~ to rc'TIO\V onr loans-all Governrr,Pnts have to renew loans at some tin1e or anoth0r-it is going to rnakE' it. diffi­eult for us to get the money.

:Mr. PoLLOCK: This is not a brt ach of con­tract.

Ho~. \V. H. B .. \.RNES: A Government th tt would commit a breach of contract in connection with land would be just as pre­parcc1 to make a bn·::teh of" contract in con­nPc-tion with money obt<line·d from the old country.

The SECRET.\RY FOR PLBLIC INSTRUCTION: Are you another of the par rots?

Ho~. W. IT. BAR':\ES: 'I'lw only parrot is on the other side.

Thr SPEAKER : OrdeT !

Ho:-r. vV. H. BAR:r\'ES: If the Government go to the old country for money they will Jind that it will cost them 6 per cent. If you create a feeling in the minds of the people at home that you nrc likely to reduce the amount of iutcrcst after agreeing to pay 6 per cent.. then you might not get the monev at all. One man talked about the c~ per· <'cnt. interest paid on the war loans in Austraiia. If we get money from the old country at 6 per cent. the time m1ght come when somt' one might suggest that the interest might he reduced to 4~ per cent.

The PRE~!IER: Do you sav that the con­tract ie mentioned in evorv clause of the Bill? ,

Hox. \V. II. BAR~ES: I am not going into t],,,t question with thE> Premier,. but I can h•ll him that he has got a colleague who !J, .. 1 atte·d upon his preYiouPly expressed c-nvictio: ·;. W0 will fmd, if thi·s Bill is ~grc0d to. th:,t the same principle will be op·•li ·.:1 to thr farm<>rs and to the workers' <h elliEz By passing this Bill you are taking ."wm· the very foundation ·of equity and justif'~. People invcste·d their n1oney becau··' of certain legislation, and they felt th ,t they "•ere quite right in inve;;ting their money in that o: ay: 1 made it perfectly dear when spoakiLg previously that the Opposition are not out to help th•·' men who

Land Act [4 JULY.] 749

have got plenty of money, but we are out to see that everv person in the community gets j usticc. ·

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : So <trc wo.

HoN. W. H. BARNES: I hope that the Premier will see that justice is done, and that he will be able to convince his colleague, the Secretary for Public Instruction, to see the error of his ways.

Mr. G. P. BARNES (TFar1,ic1): Whilst I have a degree of sympathy with the posi­tion the Government are in we must remern­~er that a barg·ain was mode in 1905, and it rs to re regretted that it does not stand the test to-day in so far as the values of those properties are concerned. The fact remains that the capital which people in their wisdom, supported by hon. members oppo­site, put into the land on the strength of that legislation, was a good thing in the interests of the country. It was a good thing that the Government entered intD the .arrangement·-; that they ·did with the pastoralists of the day. I feel very much interested in the able speeches which have

been df'livercd from both sides [7.30 p.m.] in connection with this measure.

The }Iinister for Lands was par­ticularly informative, and went back to 1884 to give us the hibtory of things from the beginning, and he was not less ably followed hy the hon. member f01· Dray,on. who from his ctandpoint made out a'l exceedingly good case. I mainbin that hon. members opposite are neR'let•ting t"J ,,~eigh things ae they should be Feighe:l. The ::\1inistcr for Lauds found son1o degrc.e of ,,ntisfaction in making; a otdenlQnt that, whilst man with man might make a colltract. that was one thing, but a contract nn<L· with the Government of the day ac· trustees of the people--

The SECRETARY FOR P"GBLIC LANDS : I said an unjust contract.

Mr. G. P. BARXES: It was not thought an unjust contract then. The Minister could see some line of demarcation between an agreement made by one private individual with another, as· against one made by a priYate individual on the one hand and a trust on the other. That was a very unjust way of looking at thing·s. What about all the trust moneys which aro being utilised. and have been utilised, by Queensland for a. great many yf'ars "? Nearly all tho moneys we hold to-day are trust moneys. Few people on their own account really enter into in­vestments. I find on looking up the Trea­surer's returns of last year that, in round numbers, about .£8,000,000 of money was spent from loan account, the whole of which monevs had been obtained at from 3 to 4~ per cent.-the larger portion at 3 per cent. Apparently, the trustees of those people made a very bad bargain in the light of the value of money to-day. Would you delegate to thf'm the power you are seeking under this Bill, to come in and make a demand on tho country-acknowledge the error thev made and demand the value of money to-day as "''l"ainst what it was in those earlier days? You would think that would be an outrage. Even they would consider a matter of that kind an outrage; indeed, that would never ent<Jr their minds, as it would be too absurd and unrighteous, and it should be equally so from the standpoint of the Government of the day. The Government should be ex­amples in every conceivable way. If a bad

bargain was mn<le-and I believe looking at it to-day that it was too generous a bargain­but there is no denying it, and the honour­able, righteous, and fair way is to stick to it, no matter what the conditions have been. I would like the Governrr,ent to answer this­to come nearer home. They profess to be very much concerned regarding trust moneys. How are they using those trust moneys that are there in many instances at 3 per cent.? Are they, on the top of what they arc doing to-day, likely to give some consideration t<>· the fact that an amount of trust money is being utilised by them at a cost of 3 per cent., whereas it is worth 5§· or 6 per cent.? If they are going to do the fair thing, let them turn round and do the right thing in C·)r.nection with matters of thi" kind. An estate was brought under my notice, and I had to give some attention to it in Brisbane. I found that some of the assets of a man who died fifteen years .ago-the youngest child is now of agP-were in Savings Bank stock, which is not due until 1945, and seeing that they are desirous of r!'rJising on that stock they have to face a loss of some .£125 on it. How does the Minister for Lands look upon a matter of that kind? This is only one case in point, because there are .any nurr,ber of others like it. Will he do the fair thing to these people and r<ty, "No, we will make good the loss you are going to ,uffer on account of having to realise"? l'vly hiench must put up with the consequences, '' nd thcv are readv to sell their stock at a le--·; of £125. If the hon. gentleman is going to preach the doctrine that because that barrain is made it is not a bargain---

Tiw SECRET.\RY FOR PUBLIC LANDR : I nevf'r •aid that.

:\Ir. G. P. BAR:\:ES: That is "h .:· it amounu to. If the hon. gentkman nys that the docament handed to the pnstoralists ·when tho nev.· arrangement \Yas Inade was not a bargain or a contract.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I say we arc c;trrying out our side of the bargain.

Mr. G. P. BARNES: You are doing what the hon. member for Gregory said-n::pudi­ating.

Mr. POLLOCK: Repudiating an injustice.

Mr. G. P. BARNES: I admit that a too generous arrangement was made, but having made it you cannot undo it. At the same time, the making of that arrangement at that tirr,e saved Queensland. Is there a man who will not acknowledge that we, to-day, are reaping the advantages which followed the liberal arrangement then made with the p:<storalists.

'The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Nobody outside a lunatic asylum would admit it.

Mr. G. P. BARNES: When I first stood for the electorate of Warwick, I drew atten­tion to what the Government had done in this direction, and in the direction of selling lands at about 10s. an acre. I exposed it and said it was a wrong thing to do-it was too liber.al-but having done it you must stick to it. The development that has taken place in Queensland would not have taken place had it not been for the concession which the Government of the day made.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : That is not so.

Mr. G. P. BARNES: The Secretary for Public Instruction knows that as well as I do.

Mr. G. P. Barnes.]

750 Land Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amend1m nt Bi'l (No. 2).

He knows the development which took place in connection with artesian boring, and how the money put in in that direction was the result of the pastoralists securing it from the banks and loan societies. They immedi­ately set about putting their house in order. They said, " Our losses to-day are the result of the want of water, not grass," and huge sums all over Australia have been spent in finding water.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : Very little was spent in water at that time.

Mr. G. P. BARNES: Nearly the whole of our expenditure in artesian boring ha~ been made since that day. Did not the restocking of the various pastoral areas take place immediately following? It would not have taken place otherwise. Even to-•day, if you could trace things, you would find that the 'ltation properties, some of them now being held by the Government, possibly have some eonnection with the forethought of the Go­vernment of that day in granting the con­cession which they did, and helping pastoralists to stock up again. We are over­looking many of the advantages which have accrued. The Treasurer is not here, but I am sure that when he finds large sums of money are coming in as a result of the profits

. made by pastoralists, a feeling of intense satisfaction must come over him. The Com­missioner of Taxation must find considerable thought for rejoicing when he finds the in­>Come tax coming up as it has been doing. Of course, we were astounded the other evening, when we found that a solitary indi­vidual had some £115.000 on which he had to pay income tax. He is helping to keep the country going. If you had no income tax coming in, where would you be? The trouble is that you httve not enough, and are ever:astingly crying for Inore. The ~ame thing applies in connection with Federal taxation. 'rhe great bulk of that, over and above what might have been the profit attached to pre-war days, will go to the Commonwealth. So that these men who have ·done so well are going to serve their country at a time of special need. I contend there­fore that, grievo1.1s as the position may be in the eyes of some men, there is an advantageous set-off. We have already noticed cables from the other side, which indicate that in this connection-and you will find the action of another Bill referred to this afternoon-they are all of the same order and arc going to destroy confidence. When the Premier wa; in England, he was very careful to assure the peop:e whom he addressed that the Lubour party were a sane people, and were not going to do any­thing of an '"pecially rash nature. What do I find? l have here something which was quobd here last year, and it is certainly worth quoting again. I am quoting from ·• Hansard," volume cxxiii., page 485. The Premier had been addressing the Royal Colonial Institute. No ·doubt he was in good company, and adapted himself to the com­J>any he was then in. I believe that his con­victions were as he tben stated, but unfor­tunately he has allowed his colleag-ues to squeeze him now into their way of thinking. 'l'his is what the Premier said-

" Apart from the question of the settle­ment of so!cliers, I may add that Queens­land, ,. ith its vast potentialities, will pro­vide a good fwld of investment for

[Mr. G. P. Barnes.

persons having money here who desire to invo:<t it in <rood securities. I should like t.o a''lnre you that the Labour party -I think Bir William ::\.facGr0"or will be able to bear me out; and 1 do not conficto my remark' to the Labour party of Australia-ar0 a party of sane and rational persons. They form comtitu­tional Government';. and the word 'con­fiscation' is not known to them."

The SE\JRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Hear, hear!

Mr. G. P. :CARNES: They were trading on it every day. The Premier then went on-

" I say that, because there is a good deal of misapprehension with regard to our legislation. It is misrepresentation to say that we arc prepared to appro­priate or confiscate anybody's property."

What are they doing now? The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA::WS : Nothing

of that sort, at any rate.

Mr. G. P. BARNES: The feeler had beea put out for Sir \Villiam MacGregor to speak. and I suppose the desire was that he should confirm what the Premier had said. On page 914 of the same "Hansard," I find that the following remarks are recorded :-

"The Right Hon. Sir William Mac­Gregor, G.C.M.G., C.B., proposed the hea:th of the chairman. He was able to speak from peroonal knowledge of Queensland as an ex-Governor, and re­referred to the extraordinary poten­tialiti<>s of the country, if irrigation schemes . were carried out on a large scale. Education, he added, was going to be the o-r<>at determining factor with regard to ~ur commercial and our poli­tical position in the world, and the people of Australia are doing much for educa­tion.''

So that he spoke of the potentialities of Queensland, and on the theme of education, but no more.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Did he contradict what the Premier said?

Mr. G. P. BARNES: Not on the sanity of the Labour party-it would have been a. verv injudicious thing for him to do. Buli what has happened? Why should we bave one argument and statement to make when we are talking to the money-lenders a!'ld another at other times. When the Premier is over on the other side and rises to the warmth of the occasion he realises the great­ness of ·Australia, its great potentialities, and it opens his heart and he urges people to come out with their money. The people need not be afraid of confiscation he tells them. Indeed, they have every reason to be afraid of confiscation.

Tbe SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Not while' this party is in power.

Mr. G. P. BARNES: If the hon. member will compare notes with his colleague on his left he will readily undcr8tand that we are soon to be faced with a Bill just to the same order, with another confiscatory !lature. In the interc•,ts of our country and Its develop­ment and no doubt there is room for a grc:1t deal of development, we have no right t0 brin"' in a Bill that is going to under­mine o{ir standing as a sovereign State.

Land Act (4 JULY.] Amro;~dme.nt Bill (No. 2). 751

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: I do not intend to take up the time of the House very long.

GoVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: That will not dis­·concert m<>. vVhen I addressed a few words to Government nwmbors on the introduction of this Bill, I made certain comments which seemed to find great favour with the hen. member for :i\litcholl, but it seemed to me if I may "ay &o, that he missed the point entirely of my criticism. If this measure were going to raise the rents of these pas­torn! lease·, in the way3 they suggest--

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : We do not propose to raise them.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE: Well, submit them to the Land Court for the same purpose-if they were going to do that without embrac­ing that very ugl.J:" word "repudiation," I should support thiS measure with all the strength at my command and there is no denying the fact for on~ minute that the Government has a great deal of arguments ·on its side when it points to the unfairness -of the present position, and I admit that every time, but I cannot see what excuse that is for introducing repudia-tion. It does not matter what cloak you put it in. It does not matter how you sugar-coat your pill, it is still repudiation.

Now, there are two main questions which in my opinion, deserve consideration i,;_ respect to this matter; one is that the pastoral lessees have used their leases for the purposes of bank securities. 'l'hat is a most important feature in my mind. It is obvious that in the minds of the banks these leases were meant to be retained and honoured exactly in accordance with tneir face value, but if this Bill is passed and the rents of those leases are interfered with, the conditions are altered, because part of the very basis of the value of the security is the Govern­ment word.

The second feature-one which I must still impress upon this House-is this: Possibly, being of English origin and possibly being the youngest newchum in this House, and when in England having been associated very closely with fina.ncial circles, I am qualified to speak upon it. I do contend that if this measure becomes law it will have the most serious effect on the confidence and faith of the British inv0stor in Queensland securities. I must stress that point, because the time is -coming when we have to beseech-almost­a renewal of those loans which are falling due. At the present moment we are financing the State through the Commonwealth, so that it is the Commonwealth's reputation which is at stake, and not that of Queensland, but the time is coming when Queensland must stand on its own feet, and all these questions which are being asked by financial papers at home will be up against us and our credit. I propose just to read an extract from the "Courier" of 1st July. which repeats an ,oxtract from the " London Times "-

"The 'London Times,' in a financial comment on the Anglo-Australian bank­ing financial resolution, considers it al­most incredible that Queensland should proceed to such a proposal. which would destroy the faith of British investors in Queensland and Australia generally."

Mr. WHITFORD: Lord Northcliffe.

:::Vlr. ELPHINSTONE: It does not matter whether it is Lord Northcliffe or anybody el5<'. That is a very important paper whose financial criticism is valued at homo, and if the imprhsion gets abroad that Queensland is likely to repudiate or does repudiate its obligations it will most certainly have e. most serious effect on our credit on the monev market at home. This is a point on ·which sufficient stress has not been laid, and I contend that if members opposite had a. little more experience, especially of money matters and the financial markets, they would appreciate this point and take every care to see that the credit of Queensland was not imperilled.

Mr. BRENNAN: You do not think of the lands hc>ld by the rich.

Mr. ELPHINS'l'ONE: It does not matter if the whole country were held by the rich. That does not justify us in repudiating our obligation. When hon. members have a little more experience and realise the im­portance of financial obligations they will appreciate fully the argument I am 11.9W advancing.

Mr. PAYNE ("tfitchell): The hon. member who has just resumed his seat has said that the onlv reason why he would vote against this motion is because it tastes of repudiation. Do hen. members know that such a proposal was in the 1886 Act and in 1897 or 1902-I am not 'sure which-it was wiped out. I said before I would not think of taking away from any man what I honestly thought be­longed to him, but there is not a man on the other side of the House who can say that these leases which the Bill would affect, wrth the hundreds of miles of railway tha~ had been built right through a number of them at the expense of the taxpayer-surely to goodness we cannot call it repudiation when we bring in a bit of legislation to get back a little bit for the taxpayer.

Mr. MACARTNEY : You know that is ex­pressly provided for in the very section we are dealing with. Leases benefited by rail­ways are exempted.

Mr. P A YNE : I think the hon. member· for Toowong is referring to the periodical reappraisement of rent. They can get the inDrement on some holdings but others are protected by a 50 per cent. limit. It is no!; repudiation to bring in this BilL It is the most lopsided idea I can think of, that a. man on one side of a six-wire fence is sub­ject to a certain law while the man on the other side, because he took up land a few years later, is under a better law. My re­marks are in reference to very large pastoral holdings and the re.sumptions that have been taken off them and opened up in grazing selections. I do not care how sincere a man mav be on the Opposition side, by· no stretch of imagination can he call this repudiation; it has been in and out of our land Acts before, but to hear hon. members talking. on the other side, one would t·hink that nothmg like this was done in this State before.

Mr. MACARTNEY : Give us an instance of what you call repudiation.

Mr. WHITFORD: What you did to the public servants when the automatic increases came round.

Mr. PA YNE: I say that if men on the land were not in a position to pay and were

Mr. Payne.]

752 Land Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendmenl Bill (X o. 2).

saddled with taxation that they could not possibly meet, especially m<'n who had been on the land a. long time, I think this pro­posal would be unjust; but here to-day, on t.h1• very leases to which this Bill refers, the produce is worth more than 200 per cent., more than 500 per cent. in some cases, than what it was when the lessees got this par­ticular concPssion. I came here <~bout the middle of 1905.

Mr. G. P. BARXLS : You are one of the repudiators?

~Ir. P A Y~E : I am going to take all the blame th"t 1s attached to it. I do not sup­pose I had been in the House a fortnight­! have not looke-d it up-but I am prepared to stand by it if I was in the I-Iouse support­ing the Government at the time. It is a peculiar coincidence that Sir Robert Philp in 1902 would not permit this concession. He gave them the extension of the leases but he would not permit the present provi­sion as to rents. He thought the extension of leuse was sufficient, but latN' on in 1905, when things were \'cry much better-twice as good, v ith better sea;ons-the Government came along with this proposal. It is the vilest thing. in my opinion, to pnt one class of people on one footing and another cl as, on another foot·ing. I -clo not think there is any rcpm1iation in this proposal. You have precedents in this House where it has been done hdor€'. I claimcd t·hat I knew some­thing about the land laws before I came here and a simibr provision was wiped ont in

1897 or 1902-I -do not know which. [8 p.m.] That is the v•·ry question that

we. arc arguing to-night. To-day there is no more necr>ooitv. indecxl there is less necessity to-day, to have this in any of our lnnd lav:s thai:t· thf're has ever been in the history of Queensland, because things are ver:-;· mnch more prosperous now than <'vcr befnre. I have heard the hon. member for Murilla .sav the squatters can pay twice as mnch rent o1· three times as mnch rent as they are paying.

Mr. MoRGAN: ~o, they have a particular contract. You cun put it in all other le.asc3 if you like.

J!Ir. PAYNE: What would be the posi­tion of the Government to-dav if thev had given the whole of the land in Qneei:tsland awav under contract? Would we have to stand by it? If one Government was in power, whether it was a Labour Government or any other Government, and they did some­thing which was detrimental to the mass of tho people. is another Government that comes into power bound to stand by that? I venture to say that after next general election, if the "Win-the-war party" get into power they will have no hesitation in undoing a lot of the work the Labour party has done. These people can well afford to pay the increase, and I would remind the hon. member for Oxley that in the great number of cases where this particular amend­ment will apoly they are absentees ; they are big financial firms and banks-great big syndicates, that had no hesitation in squeez­ing the old pioneer squatter out.

The SECRETARY FOR. PUBLIC LANDS: The lea·der of the Opposition yesterday after­noon, when speaking on this Bill, insinuated there was some object in kooping from the House the number of holdings that would

[Mr. Payne.

be :1lfedcd by this amendment. SPeing that th.; list is in the f'Chednle of the Act which we are now amending, there was no neces­sity for the hon. member to insinuate any­thing like that. But, to save the hon. mem­ber from looking at the schedule, I will give the exact number. The pastoral holdings which will be affected by this Bill number 1,220, and the grazing selections 1,650, or a total of 2.870. The total number of pastoral holdings in Queensland is 1.996, so that there will be 766 without a limitation. There were 7,262 grazing selections on the 31st December ]a,•'. so there would be 5,612 of those not coming unde1· the limitation. \Ve have hear-cl the same old cry, the same amount of weeping to-llight about the so-calle-d "repudiation," •• couf>ca-tion,'' "depredation," and "out­r.ttgc." The hon. member for Warwick was most extreme in the terms he used to-night. \\ ith re~m·cl to this question of repudiation, the leader of the Opposition-being a mem­ber of the legal fraternity-m~st know in his he:1rt that these terms will not apply in thi~ case, because I take it that one of the first thin::;s the hon. gentleman did when noticf' wa, given of this Bill was to look up tho form of lf'ase under which these holdings ara held, and he would find that this is con­tained in the term> of the k.tse-

" To hold the same unt<> the lessee, and lawful w';ign ,, for and durin!J the tc nn cf years 1 to h~ COinputed from the first da v of in th~ vear one thmt~.'lnd niiw hundred and • with, under. and subjrx·t to the reservations hercinaftl~r particulady nu-'nt1onccl2 and virh, und. r. and mbject to the rights, JW\\1 ~ rs, priYilcg~·s, ter11u, condition,, pro­Yi~luns. E \ .. ceptions, rc. .. trictiolh, rm:'rva­tior.~. and provisos in t.he ~4.ct and the 1 ,_,g·uL~tio}lS therfunclcr no\v or herein­a:i:t.._r to be made."

If that is eo, how <an the hon. gentleman say that this is repudiati,,n? How c:tn the hon. member for Oxley get up here and say there ls anything: unL ir in this. and that, because of its unfairnt-Js, we are going to lose credit on the London money market. ~o: it. is because we are going to do a fair thing ~y the people of Qne.ensland that we are go1ng to get mor0 credit on the money marlc·t. That clause was in the Act, but the lease was subject to all those provisos, t<"o'ms, etc., now or hereinafter to be made. It only goes to show that hon. gentlemen opposite arf' not sincere in their allege<l criticism of this Bill. They arc' trying to camouflage--as the hon. member for Bris­bane said-to throw dust in the eves of the people and make th<>m believe things exist which ·do not exist. I thought it was just as well to refer to this now, so that ail this talk about rep~diation, depredation, and con­fiscation would be dropped from now hence­forward. (Hear, hear!)

Mr. ::'11ACARTNEY : I suppose you 0an see that that word "hereinafter" ma.y be read to refer to regulations?

Th" SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: It says, "In the Act or regulations there­under now or hereinafter to be made."

::\fr. MACARTNEY: Regulations to be "here­inafter" made.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: The Act and the rE'gulations go together there, and there is no distinction between

Land Act [4 JULY.] Amendment Bill (No. 2). 753

them. The hon. gentleman does not seem now to have sufficient mentality to grasp the point. The lease goes on " yielding and pay­ing unto us, our heirs and suocessorf!," but all that is governed by what I have jnst read-" restrictions, exceptions, provisos," etc.

Mr. MACARTNEY: "Or any regu,lations made." That word "made" has reference to regulations.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Of course, the leader of the Opposition is trying now, by jocularity, to get over the statement he· made in the most solemn man­ner last night about repudiation, and which all the hon. gentlemen behind him repeated.

:'vir. G. P. BARNES: You will soon believe it is not repudiation.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I will soon convince mvself that no matter what argument I use I cannot alter the hon. gentleman's opinion on anything. I am satisfied about that, and for that very good reJ.,on I am not going to try to do it. At any rate, I think that will satisfy any rea­sonable being, at any rate, that there is nothing in the shape of confiscation or repu­diation in this Bill, but simply a restoration of the rights of the people which they have been robbed of.

Que>'tion-That the Bill be now read a second time-pnt and passed.

COMMITTEE. (Jfr. Bertram, Maree, in the chair.)

Clause 1 put and passed.

On clause 2-" Amendment of section 43"­Mr. MACARTNEY said he understood

the Minister wanted to move an amendment on line 19, but he wished to move an amend­ment before that. Clause 2 was not the clause which was before the House last year, or any preceding year. It was a very different clause. Subclause (1) was practi­cally the clause which was contained in the previous Bill. Subclause (2) repealed cer­tain words in the Second Schedule. He was not going to discuss that, because it was practiclllly consequential on the previous part of the clause, but su bel a use (3) was one that was very far-reaching in its effect. It practically meant that not only were they going to repeal th<; limitations they had been discus'!ing, but they were to be taken as repealed as from the commencement. Sub­clause (3) read as follows:-

" The amendments of the said section forty-three and Schedule II. hereby made shall have effect with respect to every pastoral holding, whether the annual rent thereof has or has not been actually de­termined by the court under th'l said section forty-three at the passing of this Act, and to this extent this enactment shall have retrospective operation."

The effect of that am(lndment was that they could go back over the whole antecedent period of the lease. That was the effect of it as it stood. He did not know whether that was intended or not, but it was a very serious extension of the Bill as originally proposed, and he proposed to move that sub­section (3) be eliminated altogether. On the subject of the principle that was involved,

1918--3 A

the Minister had treated it as if the sug­gestion of repudiation was all moonshine.

The SECRETARY FOR P<;BLIC LANDS : And so it is.

Mr. MACARTNEY: The hon. gentleman had no warrant for making a remark of that sort. 'fhe hon. gentleman must know he was going back on a condition that was agreed to between the lessees and the Government, and if that was not" repudiation, what was repudiation? The contract was entered into between the lessees generally and individu· ally and the- Government, and it contained a clause that their rent was not to be in­creased beyond 50 per cent. over the pre­ceding period on the reappraisement. .~hat was a term of the lease, and the provisiOns of the Bill they were now dealing with pro­posed to take that term out of the lease. The Minister said that that was not repudia­tion. What was repudiation? Did they understand the English language? Were members talking the English language? The Secretary for Public Instruction talked about the meaning of the word " contract " and the word " agreement," but the hon. gentleman 'was not prepared to give to those words the meaning which was generally given to them by the community. The Minister for Lands said that it was not repudiation, but he would not throw dust in the eyes of anybody by saying that. The people on the other side· of the world knew that it 'vas repudiation, and they knew that it was repudiation which amounted almost to confiscation. Why did not the Minister for Lands admit that the Government were altering the contract, and why did he not "ay straight out, " We are going to do it" 9

It would be better to do that than to say that the term of the contract was not being altered. Such talk was all moonshine, and it was exposing the ignorance which hon. members opposite exhibited.

THE SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTR1:CTION : Like your misquotation of me last night.

Mr. MACARTNEY: He did not misquote the hon. gentleman. He quoted where the hon. gentleman was favourable and where he used unfavourable expressions. He also quoted him where both the hon. gentleman and himself were in agreement. It coulrl all be seen m the '' HansaDd." He saw them in the proofs issued to-day, and they spoke for themselves beyond question. The Min­ister read the form of the lease, and he (Mr. Macartney) was going to reread the part he stressed-

" To be computed from the first day of in the year one thousand nine

hunrlred and with, under, and subject to the reservations hereinafter particularly mentiom;d. and with, un(\e~. and subject to the nghts, powere, priVI­leges, terms, conditions, provisions, ex­ceptions, restrictions, reservations, and provisoes in section of the said Act, and to all other rights, powers. privileges, terms, condjtions, provisions. exceptions, rrstrictions, reservations, and provisoes referred to, contained, or pre­scribed in and by the said Act. and the

;Mining on Private Land Act of 1909, or anv Regulations made or which may he~eafter be made under the said Acts, or either of them."

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : That Is only an additional regulation.

Mr. M acartne.y. J

751 Land Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill (No. 2).

Mr. M}._CARTNEY: The hon. gentleman said that the words " hereafter to be made " referred to any Act that might be pas~ed. The hon. gentleman, in r0ading, seemed to drop part of the context altogether-quoted just sufficient to satisfy himself.

'l'he SECRETARY FOR Pum.rc LANDS : You are reading frorn the form of lease under the Act of 1910. I read from the form under the Act of 1905. which is the one we are dealing with. ·

Mr. MACARTNEY: It was exactly the same provision, and applied to regulations.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: No, it applies to restrictions, provisos, and every­thing else.

Mr. MACARTNEY: It only had r~fer­ence to ono thing·, and that was to regulatwns. It v. as no use arguing about the mat~er, as nothing that any member. would brmg forward would make any difference; the words spoke for themselves.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: He could not accept the amend~ent. He thought the provision in the B1.ll wa~ a generous one. A large number of holdmgs that came under the Bill had been deter· mined by agreement between the lessees and th~ department. The lessee,, in the buLk of cases, had accepted . an increase of 50 per cent., instead of gomg to the expense of appearing at the Land Court. In some casf's the valuation of the departmental officers and the lessees were close together, but others showed a great disparity. As they should get a fair and full rent from the pastoral lessees, he thought it only right that they should rnake it retrospective.

Mr. MoRGAN: How far back will :vou go?

'l'he SECRET.\RY FOR PUBLIC LANDg · To 1914. ·

i\ir. MORGAN: Under the clause, you can go back to 1905.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: No. There was no intention to go back to 1905. There was a provision which stated that where the valuations of the department and the lessee were nearly the same, they would not put the lessef's to the expense of going to the court, but would allow it to go for this term. In some case~, however, there was a disparity amount;ng to 200 per cent. or 300 per cent., and it was only fair that the lessees in that case should pay more rent.

Mr. MORGAN pointed out that the clame could penalise lessees by increasing their rent by 50 per cent. or 500 per cent., and making it retrospective back to 1905. He sugge,ted that the Minister should make it clear by adding the words " as from the year 1914." He w.1s opposed to giving the Go­vernment power to make it retrospective, and date back to 1905.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS pointed out that the hon. gentleman had nothing to fear. If the hon. gentleman would look at section 43 of the Principal Act, he would see that it was provided that l the rent payable should be on the second per'iod, and the second period came in in 1914.

Mr. MACAIITNEY : Some of the leases com­menced in 1902.

[Mr. Macartney.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: A number of leases, though, had some years to run.

Mr. MORGAK: Will both the pastoral and grazing leases date from the second period in 1914?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: No. He asked the Chairman to preserve his right to move an amendment after line 19 of the same cl a use.

HoN. W. H. BARNES was not satisfied with the explanation of the Minister, al­though he admitted that the hon. gentleman would not make a statement unless he be­lieved it to be true. It looked as if the clause could be made to date back far be­yond the period which the Minister stated.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I can give the hon. member my assurance that what I have said is absolutely correct.

Ho);. W. H. BARNES: He did not doubt the statement of the Minister, but in that regard the hon. gentleman might not be seized of the possibilities as far as the Act was concerned. It seemed to him that this would date back beyond the period which the Minister had said.

Mr. MACARTNEY: Surely, apart from any question of mpudiation, the Minister would see the injustice of the retrospective portion of this clause. It was not proposed last year to make it retrospective.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: A num­ber of the assessments have taken place since last year.

Mr. MACARTNEY: That was neither here nor there. To date it back to 1914 was

retrospective to the extent of [8.30 p.m.] .about four years. Last year it

would have been retrospective to the extent of about three years, but no sug­guestion of retrospectiYitv was made last year. \Vhat it was put in this year for he could not understand, unless it was pure vindictiveness, and for the usual purpose of making the pastoralists squeal. There was no fairness in dating it back four years.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Of course, there is.

Mr. MACARTXEY: There was not. That w:.ts an objection by itself, and a very serious objection. It ,eemed to him that every Bill they had had during the last few years, if it happened to he ve bee" dcLlscd through the action of another place, had appeared here again with a cla,use with retrospective operation. He wculd like to refer to the cable mecosage which the hon. member for Oxloy referred to, a01d which just shov;ed the ramifieations which wore involv0d in the subject-matt.er of th-, clause. This was the text as it appeared in the Presc-

" With reference to the Queensland Go­vernment's land proposals, leading London Anglo-Australian banks and pastoral and financial companies here have passed a resolution in which the emphatic opinion is expre:osed that any legislation seeking to remove the existing contractual limitation of rent on pc•Aoral leases in QaeDnsland would con<-titute a breach of covenant, and render practical confiscation possible. The resolution also afrirms that such legislation would tend to deatroy the

Land Act (4 JULY.] Amendment Bill (No. 2). 755

confideH'B of British investors. The signatorie' to the resolution include the Australian Estates and Mortgage Com­pany; the ,~u,tralian P~storal Company, the . ,,ustrahan MeJ·cantile Trust Agency the Australian and New Zealand Lo~ a~1d ;vrercantile Agency _Company, the I\ow Zealand and Australian Land Cam­pan:·, and ]\.Ieesrs. Dalgety and Com­pany, Gibbs, Bright, and Company, also the fo:lowing banks :-Bank of Aus­tralasia, London Bank of Australia, Union Bank o£ Australia, and the English, Scottish, and Australian Bank."

Mr. BHENX,\X: It may be a faked cable. Hon. J. M. HcXTER: Notwithstanding that

oa_bl~, an English and an American company w1thm the la•t fortmght both wanted to inv< ·L in Qucm1sland.

:\1r. MACARTNEY: Perhaps these con­,. rns \\ -,~e una ware d the cable, or were ;;-ett:ng ~a vonrable terms from the hon. g< ntlem~n. It all depended on the special circum,hncc; of the case.

Hon. J. M. Hc:KTER: It all depends on "hat they get fro.n you.

Mr. 11ACARTNEY: They must realise that this legislation v;culd have some effect on " the other side," and the l'.iinister would be >Yell advi,,ed to take Tvarning about it in time. He asked the J\Iinister if he was pre­pared to giYc C(H~'jid0ration to the r''1::ro ~pec­tive qm tion, or v-hether he •till insistE,1 ore the retention of tho retrospe,.tive operution of the clansc?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAKDS: Yes. he must insist on that. The hon. gentleman had tried to make capital out of the fact that this provision was not in last 3uar's Bill, but the reason it 'v::~s. not "'-A·a;; because, to the be,t of his belief, there were no asse,sment•. at all for the second period l:,:u1de until last ~· ~~ar.

Mr. l10RGA~: ~\!though they were due in 1914 y

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA?iJJS : Ye:· For that re 'son they wanted those which had not been asseosed to be put on the same plane as thc>-e whieh had been a-sessed. Th , re,son why o. number of them had not been accese~d \v,.s bccaus<e the Land Court could not o.-erta~m the business. Two mem­bers of the court were laid up. It would be unfair to those who were still waiting to be a•ce ,s,·J, through no fault of their own, to be brought u;Hler the Bill, and allow those who v. er" lucky enough to be without a,-e,,·.:•nt to be cl-sr of it. He did Eot think anyone would object to th:tt.

He·:\". W. H. BARNES: It WM very evi­dent that onc..J ':ou started to do that which was pra-ctically [m injustice, you immediately creat<>d another i,,justi< e. The l\Iinist~r heed pointed cut that the Land Court had been able to deal with certain cases but not with others, an.d that that was the r<-ason for the clau'c being' in ih present form.

The S•:C'RETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: No, but bec,auc-' I wanted it to apply to the same term. I have h·ied to explain, and you are putting a wrong construction on what I said.

Hox. W. H. BARNES: He was not put­tin::: a '\vrong construction on it; he 'va.s afraid that th0 Minister did not understand it himself. He could quite conceive that when an act of repudiation was going to take placB on the part of the Government. the agents here of the people interested at home were sure to communicate that information

straight a way to therr.. It had been inter­jected by an hon. member opposite that the cable h&d been "faked."

A GOVERNMENT MEMBER: No, he did not say that.

Mr. POLLOCK : The cable was genuine enough.

HoN. W. H. BARNES : Would not such a communication be sent by the Government themHlves in connection with any vital matter?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Do you think that tho'e people are competent to speak for the financiero of the British Em­pire'?

HoN. W. H. B_\RNES: Very largely so. It was of no use saying that this fear did not exist. Iu the cl '1YS to come when the history of Queensland wcs written this Government would b' called " The R·opudiation Govern­ment." (Government laughter and dissent.) They found the same thing in connection with taxation Bills brought in. He sincerely hoped that the Mini:,t<'r would go into the matter, vchen he would fipd that he had made a 111i~take.

Mr. POLLOCK hoped the Minister was not going to accept the suggestion of the Oppo ,ition, and c:>t out tho retrospecti vity contained in the clause. He hoped to be able to convince the House that there was no ncc'''"ity to do it. The first reas"-Bboments for the second p<·riod of any consequence were made last year, and that was the reason for it. There might not have been very many, but there were some. In the Hu:J;henden district the reaseessments were made in .""ovember. The position to-day was that •·arwus leases had been rea~·,.essed, and those rea<eessments were considerablv lower than the land commi,cioner's valuations. Later reassessments wonld not be due for many years, and was it a fair thing that those men who were sufficiently lucky to have their leases reassessed last vear should be placed on a different footing' from men similarly ,ituated whose leases would not be reascessed until this year or next year?

Mr. :M oRGAN : You do net expect to get this Bill through this year? (Laughter.)

Mr. POLLOCK: He hoped it was going through. He wanted to remind hon. mem­bers opposite that there was more than the ordinary objection to retrospoctivity at stake, b0cause the amount of rcve'1ue which would come to the Government if the retrospectivity were allowed to stan-d was a large su!Yi. Twelve holdings alone in the Hughenden dis­trict were assessed last year, and the amount which the pastoralists were let off for in respect of them, beoause of the 50 per cent. limit, was £5,506 7s. 5d. One could easily understand that i£ there were that differ­ence hetween the assessment la.st year and the valuation of the land commisoioner in respect of only twelve holdingJ, the difference in respect of some seventy or eighty hol·dings in the district would be very much larger. In order not to giYe some of the biv, pastoralists an unfair advantage, he hoped that the retro­spectivity vwuld be .;•·llowed to stand as it '\Yas in the clause at present.

Amendment put and negatived. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC' LANDS

moved the insertion. in !in" 19. page 2, after the word "Act," of the following words:­

" whether any appeal is pending from such determination or not."

He did not want those who might be appeal­ing, or who might be tempted to appeal

Hon. J. H. Goyne.]

756 Land Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill (No. 2).

because of the present Bill, to g·o soot-free from its provisions when· it was made law. If the amendment were not inserted the clause might be construed to mean that it would not apply to those who were now ap­pealing, and, again, they wou\.d have the dis­parity again between the 50 per cent. addi­tional and the land commissioner's valua­tion. He did not wish to make flesh of one and fish of another.

· Amendment agreed to; and clause, as amended, put and passed.

On clause 3-" Amendment of section 109 "-

Mr. MACART~EY objected to the analogous- provisions of the clause for very much the same reasons as he had objected to the previous clause. The present clause affected the grazing farmer, the smaller lessee, and differed from the clause affecting the pastoral lessee, because the retrospective operation was taken back to the first day of January, 1916. He did not follow just why that difference was made.

The SECRET.\RY FOR Pt:BLIC LANDS: The rea­son is that that was the time when the first of those terms expired.

Mr. MACART='iEY: 'fha.t conveyed noth­ing to him, because the Act was passed in 1905, and he understood that the term of a grazing selection was twenty-eight years.

The SECRETARY FOR Pt:BLIC L1NDS : The hon. member must remember that they got an extension ·in addition to the balance of the lease they had at the time.

Mr. MACARTNEY: That time was twenty-eight years. An ordinary calculation showed that between 1905 and 1916 was eleven years, and there was no period of any pastoral lease or grazing selection which exceeded ten years, so that there was some­thing different there. It seemed that if the clause wE're passed there would be a differ­ence between some of the grazing farmers and others.

The SECRETARY FOR Pt:BLIC LANDS : 1916 will be the termination of one of the terms for reasses-:;ment.

Mr. MACART~EY: Could the hon. mem­ber give them any information as to what the terms were?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Twenty­eight years.

Mr. MACART~EY: With four periods of assessment-so that if a lease commenced on the 1st January, 1906-immediately after the passing of the Act-the first seven years would be up in 1913?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Yes, but they came in at varying tirnes owing to the fact that at the time when the Bill was made law some of the previous terms had not ex­pired. Then, at different periods, they elected to come under the Act.

Mr. MACARTNEY: Some of the leases between 1906 and 1916 were reappraised.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : They were, and we arc not touching them at all.

:\fr. ::MACART:!\EY: Would this Bill not apply to them?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: No.

Mr. MACAR'l'NEY: But it would applv to all pastoral holdings. According to the

[Hon. J. H. Goyne.

answer given by the ~1inister, it would appear that the Government were g1vmg so1ne concession to the grazing farmers.

The PREMIER: I am glad to hear you sa~­it is a ''concession," because you \VPrc talk­ing about repudiation just now.

Mr. MACARTNEY: Members want0d to know what thes0 provisions meant, and the Minister had not made it quite clear what was intended.

The SECRET~\RY FOR PUBLIC LA::'\DS: He thought he had made the matter suffi­ciently dear. There had been more than one reasse-,sment of the rents of grazing selectiom, but he was allowing all those to go by the boar·d, and only wished to go back -as far as grazing selections were con­corned-to 1916. Pastoral holdings were reasse,sed every ten years, most of them being ·due in 1914, and grazing selections c·very seven years, so that they could not expect the terms to expire simultaneously. ~-'~-' a matter of fact, the first term in con­nection with pastoral holdings had not expired vet, and they would not be dw' fm· reassessment until the first term h>td expired. But grazing selections had bePn reassessed more than onee, and he only wanted to go back to 1916, as far as they were concerned; so that the hon. gentleman wou\.d see that the Government were reallv treating them generously. ·

:\lr. MACARTNEY: He was oblig'ed to the hon. gentleman for the information he' had :!'ivon the Committee, but that di-d not remove the obiection thev ha-d to the clau l.'

being made retrt:"-.pective ·to the 1st January. 1916. With a view to removing that objec­tion, he begged to move the omission of the first paragr.aph of subdause (2).

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAKDS: He c-Ould not accept that amendment. The hon. gentleman was evidently not willing to l;te as generous to the grazing farmers as t'fie Government were.

Mr. 1'.1ACARTO<EY: VIe want to go "the "·hole hog," and wipe out all retrospectivity.

The SECRET_\RY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: It was not a fair. thing to say to one set of grazing farmers that they must pay a fair rent, and to allow other grazing farmerc; to e'cape paying a fair rental. Grazing selections had not been dealt with by th•' court yet, except in a few instances, and the department want to go back to 1916, so that they could bring all the selections under the same category. The desire of the dcnartment was to do what they considered as· right towards everybody.

Mr. MORGAN: If a grazing farmer's rent was fixed in 1915, he would escape the con­ditions imposed by thic• Bill; but. if his case happened to be dealt with by the Land Court in 1916, the department were not going to accept the decision arrived at by the Land Court.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: You are imposeible, because I t-Old you ·distinctly ' that the next term was due in 1916.

Mr. MORGAN: The hon. gentleman ad­mitted to the lea·der of the Opposition that some terms fell -due in 1914 or 1915.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Thoslil' were pastoral holdings.

Land Act [4 JULY.] Amendment Bill (No. 2). 757

:VIr. MORG'Jd'': The hon. gentleman dis­tinctly told them, when he was going to move 11 motion for the omi•.sion of certain word9, that those words referred to pastoral hold­ings, and that in the case of the bulk of the pastoral holdings, the reappraisement was <hw in 1914.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : You don't appPar to know the difference between

'•even years' reassessment and ten years' reassessn1ent.

Mr. M ORGAN: He was talking about re­appraisements made in 1914. T~~ ~~'::~!:.:T.':.:!~ -::s~ P~~:.:::c :!" ... ::..:::~:8::: I know

that; the bulk of the reassessments were due in 1916.

:\llr. :VIORGAN: You said quite different from that just now.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: No; I said the bulk of the reassessments for graz­inf· ~cl 0ctions were duo in 1916.

Mr. MORGA;\J: There had been only one reaese··snwnt prior to 1916; that took place in 1914 or 1915, and those persons would u~upe the payment of increased rental.

He· certainly thought the clause [9 p.m.] should be omitted. In fact, he

thought the clause dealing with pastoral holdings should also he omitted.

HoN. W. H. BARNES: The Minister had just admitted, by way of interjection, that there were only two partie' apparently who would not be affectecl by the clause. The hon. gentleman had expressed himself as l)(>ing most anxious to see that the men who had already been dealt with should be pro­tected; and now he admitted, practically, that there were only two persons concerned.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : 'Who a re the two persons?

HoN. W. H. BARNES: He did not know, but the Minister probably knew who they were. The hon. member said that, as far as the retrospective part of the clause was con­cerned, only about two grazing farms were clealt with before 1916.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I was talking about two terms.

HoN. W. H. BARNES: The selector was concerned in this clause, and the Govern­ment, with a desire to rake in all the coin they possibly could, were going to make it retrospective to 1916, even so far as the small selector was concerned. H did seem to him that every Bill that had been brought in this year by the Government led in the direction of seeing how muoh morf;l money 'the Government could extract from the pockets of the people, no matter whether they had much or little. Their idea was to see how much they could get, so that they could eJr,bark, possibly, on some wild enter­prises in addition to those in which they were now engaged. He hoped the Minister, after list<ming to the arguments put forward by the leader of the Opposition and the hm~. member for Murilla, would see his way clear to meet them in this matter. He knew the hon. gentleman was a man who 1'f'as always anxious to help the small eE'lector.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: He was very pleased indeed to know that hon. members opposite were now so solicitous ubout the welfare of the small selector.

Mr. MACARTNEY: We always were.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: On the arguments they had heard prior to this clause, one could easily imagine that members of the Opposition had as much sympathy for the litHe selector as Cleopatra had for one of her slaves. In 1909 th<;l first rc<tssessment took place, and the second was due to take place in 1916, and the Govern­ment had a perfect right to bring those people under the Bill. The hon. member for Murilla seemed to see something very sinister about thP words "nineteen sixteen," but, as a mat­ter of fact, they could not make it apply before that. becaus!J the second term had not expir<'d, and they were making it apply from the commencement of the second period. That was the reason why the wor·ds " nine­teen sixteen" were placed in the clause; and, under those circumstance'!, he could not accept the amendment.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: From what he under­stood about 2,000 grazing selectors would be affected bv the clause.

The SE~RETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : Who told you that?

Mr. BEBBINGTON: He had that on th'l beRt authority. That was double the number of large pastoral holdings.

'['he SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Why don't you keep to facts?

Mr. BEBBINGTON: Would the Minister giH' them the number of holdings affected? (Laug-hter.) The number he had given was supplied by the Lands Department, in answer to questions asked in the House. When they looked back and saw the way the graz­ing se] ector had generally been treated, he thought the Minister might at least keep every grazing selector out of the clause.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : You want to discriminate between the grazing selectors.

1\Ir. BEBBINGTON: He wanted to dis­criminate between the grazing selector and the big pastoral holder. The Government had not treated the grazing farmer too honourablv, because it was th~ grazing farmer who suppli<>d most of the meat to the city butchers' shops-the big squatter could send his awav across the border, or anywhere else, but" the grazing selector was bound to sell his to th'l meatworks.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! Or·der ' Mr. BRENNAN : Butter again ! Mr. BEBBINGTON: It was not butter

this time. The CHAIRM~\N : 01'der ! Or·der !

Mr. B'RBBINGTON : He would not refer to that ag-ain. (Laughter.) Hon. members knew exactlY what he meant. They knew how the people on the land were being pe!Cse­cuted, and now they were not only gomg to raise their rents--

The CH 'IIRMAN : Order ! Will the hon. member connect his remarks with the ques­tion before the Committee?

Mr. BEBBINGTON: Under the clause the Government would increase their rents for years back.

The SECRETARY FOR P'UBLIC LANDS : How do you know they will be increased?

Mr. BEBBINGTON: They kn'lw that the Government did not reduce anything. If there was the least idea that rents would be reduced, this Bill would never have been

Mr. Bebbington.]

75'3 Land Act, Etr., B"l! (No. 2). [ASSEMBLY.] Adjournment.

brought into the Rous!}. When they had Ministers looking for billets and everything else--

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order !

Mr. BEBBINGTON : · When they looked into what had happened in the past, and all the things that might happen in the future, the surest way was to leavEl the grazing selector out of the Bill.

Amendment (Mr. Macartney's) put and negatived.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS moved that after the word "sixteen," on line 54, the words "whether any appeal is pending from any such determination or not " be added. He did not know of any appeal that was pending, but he wanted to be put on the same footing as the pastoral lessees.

Mr. MORGAN drew attention to the fact that on the 21st November, 1917, the follow­ing question was asked in the Assembly by the hon. member for Carnarvon :-

"RENTS OF PASTORAL HOLDINGS. " Mr. GUNN asked the Secretary for

Public Lands-What was the number of-(a) Pasto­

ral holdings, (b) grazing farms, in respect of which the provision limiting the increase of rent at any reassess­ment period to 50 per cent. increase of rent payable for the preceding period applied? " The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS

(Hon. J. M. B:unter, itiaranoa) replied-(a) 1,261; (b) 2,449."

Now the Minister came along with different figures. What reliance could they place on information which they got from Ministers, when they gave different figures like that? What they wanted to know was the number of grazing farmers and pastoral lessees which would be affected by the Bill, and they were entitled to get that information.

The PREMIER : How dof's that affect the principle of the Bill?

Mr. MORGAN: They had been dealing with the number of lessees and grazing farmers who were affected by the Bill. Mem­bers of the Opposition were told that they were supporting the big men, and they wanted to see how many big men and how many small· men were concerned.

The PREMIER : We are in favour of justice to all, whether large or small.

Mr. MORGAN: He was opposed to the Bill, and he was opposed to repudiation, whether it affected the big man or the small man. He thought, though, that informa­tio~ supplied by any Minister should be rehable.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: The hon. member for Mm·illa made more irresponsible statements than any other mem­ber of the House. The figures that he (Mr. Coyne) gave to-day were certainly different to those given twelve months ago. The hon. member for Murilla pretended to know some­thing about the land laws, and he mus~ know that transfers of land took place, also amalgamations of holdings, and large hold­ings were burst up.

Mr. M oRGAN : That would not alter the numbar.

[Mr. Bebbington.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Of course, it would alter the number. The Bill referred to land that was taken up under the 1905 Act, and not to the person who held the land.

Mr. BEBBINGTON : How many grazing far­mers will be affected?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: There would be 1,650 grazing farmers affected · by this Bill, and 1,220 pastoral lessees. Those figures were different to the figures given last year, because of transfers, amalgamations, bursting up, and all that sort of thing. The hon. member knew that the same figures would not apply every year. Yet they had from the hon. member a tirade of nonsense about the figures being incorrect.

Mr. M ORGAN: He still had reason to complain, because there was a difference of 799 farms in the number mentioned by the present Minister, and the number quoted by the ex-Minister for Public Lands last year. He thought that was a large number of changes to take place in seven months. There was some misunderstanding some­where, and he would like the matter cleared up, so that they would know exactly what were the correct figures.

The SECRETARY FOR PCBLIC LANDS: I gave you the correct figures.

Mr. MACARTNEY: The Minister must admit that there was some reason for nhe remarks of the hon. member for Murilla seeing that the difference of over 700 farms was a large number.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : The figures will be different every year.

Mr. MACARTNEY: There must be some discrepancy in the figures · supplied by the present Minister or by the ex-Minister. In­formation wa.s not supplied to the House '" it should be supplied. The hon. gcntlmw~a must realise that he must accept the wspon­sibility, having failed to supply such inter mation as should have been supplied. The House was entitled to accuratE• information.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Just so.

Mr. MACARTNEY: Correct information would save a lot of trouble.

Amendment (Mr. Coyne's) agreed to; and clause, as amended, put and passed.

The House resumed. The CHAIRMAN re­ported the Bill with amendments, and the third reading was made an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

ADJOURNMENT.

The PREMIER: I beg to move-That this House .do now adjourn. The business on Tuesday will he as it appears on the sheet.

Mr. MACARTNEY: Before the House a<ljourns I wou!.d like to ask the Premier •if there is any truth in the rumour that he is likely to make a trip to England in the near future ?

The PREMIER : I would refer the hon. gentleman to my reply to the Press this morning. (Laughter.)

Question put and passed.

The House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past 9 o'clock p.m.