Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 12 MARCH 1908

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Questions. [12 }fARCH.] Questions. 87

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

THURSDAY, 12 MARCH, 1908.

The SPEAKER (Hon. John Leahy, BHlloo) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

S"GPPRESSIOX OF DISTURBANCES AT PUBLIC l\IEETI~GS BILL.

FIRST REAJJING.

::\Ir. JENKI~SOX (Fr:ssifern): Pursuant to leave given n1e yesterday, I desire to present a Bill with reference to the suppression of dis­turbances at public meetings, and move that it be read a first time.

Question put and paHsed. The second reading of the Bill was made an

Order of the Day for Thursday, 1\Jth instant.

t~UESTIONS.

REPOHT ox LAZAHET, PEEL IsLMm.

~lr. PAGET (Jiaekay), for Hon. D. F. Den­ham, asked the Home ::lecretary-

IIas he any objection to place upon the table of the House the report or )fr. )facDonald on his recent investi~ gation at tbe Lazaret, Peel hland r

The HOME SECRETARY (Hon. A. G. C. Hawthorn, Enoygera) replied-

! have no objection to laying it on tbe table. I now formally lay on the table or the House copy of the report.

Ordered to be printed.

PDRCHASlJ OF RE3f0UN1'S.

::\Ir. GRAXT (Rockhampton) asked the Chief :Secretary-

1. Has the ne;\r arrang-ement made by .the Indian Government in regard to purchase of remounts, by '~hich horses will only be bought. from one man in each district, been brought under hi:<. notice F

2. "\Vill his Government. ask the Indian Government to reconsider the matter?

The PREMIER (Hon. W. Kidoton, Rock­hampton) replied-

1. Thi8 proposaJ h:.ts been conveved to the Federal Government, nnd the only intimation of ir, Known to the Department of Agriculture is from the paragraphs appearing in the Press. From inquiries made, it appears that New South '\Vales, Yictoria, and South Australia arc leavmg 'Lhe matter to the Commonwca1th.

2. 'rhe Department of Agriculture has taken the matter up, pending advice being- asked on the ~ubject, and has communicaled with a number at horse-breeders asking for their opinions. rrhese opinions are now collling to hand, and the matter will be fnrt,lwr con­sidered.

GOVER~ME~T .TET1'Y, THURSDAY ISLAND.

::\Ir. DOUGLAS (Cook) asked the Tretsurer-1. Is it a fact that cert<tin local men were discharged

from employment on the repairs to the GovernFtent jetty, 'l'hur~day Island, and that men were obtained 1rom Bowen to do the work:-

2. If so, what was the reason for setting a.side local men?

::1. Did the Government pay the passages of the men fl'Om Bowen to Thursday Island~

4. Will the Jiinister take immediate steps to see that Iocal men are employed at this work ?

The TREASL:"RER (Hon. P. Airey, Brislxme Sonth) replied-

1. Xo. The foreman. after ascertaining requirements '{)11 arrival, as kSd for three men of experience on similar -~,york at Boweu jetty, who were accordingly sent.

2. It is considered that these three experiencPd men were necessary.

3. Yes. 4. All labour required in addition to the three men

referred to is being obtained locally.

INSPECTION u~DEH SHOPS AND FACTOHIES AcT.

Mr. 'ADAMSON (Maryuorm(qh) asked the Secret<try for Public "\Vorks-

1. Is i.t his desire to administer the Shops n.nd Fac­tories Act impartially to employer and employee alike?

2. Is he aware t,hat many of the inspectors appointed under this Act have so rn'any other duties to perform that they are un::tble to properly attend to the duties imposed on them in the administration of this Act?

3. \\'"ill he see thnt more inspectors are appointed. and that thAy devote the whole of their time, or such portion of then time, as will ena.ble them to enforce the prodsions of this Act in a proper and effi­cient manner~

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS (Hon. G. Kerr, Barroo) replied-

1. Yes. 2. Yes; in the larger towns. :3. A special inspector has just been appointed for

eaeh of the following towns :-Rockhampton, Towns .. ville. and Ch}LTterd rrowers.

::\Ir. MAUGHA~: One is badly wanted <tt Ips­wich.

Co.u, AREAS or•' BitmrE IsLAND.

i\Ir. DOUGLAS asked the Secrefary for Mines-

1. Has anything been done to prospect for and report on the coal areas of Bribie Island?

2. If so, will the ~Iinister lay on the table of the llouse the report made in conneetion therewith F

The SECRETARY FOR MINES (Hon. J. \V. Blair, Ipsn·ich) replied-

!. Land examined a.ud reported upon by Government Geologist.

2. Yes.

"\Vhereupnn the hon. genoleman laid upon the table the report referred to.

Ordered to be printed.

AGRIOcLTURAL BANK.

Mr .. J. M. HUNTER (llf,z>-cowct) asked the Secretary for Agriculture-

If. having regard to the comparative impotenc~ of the A~Ticultnral Bank and the con8tant co:nplamts _of selectors concerning its operations, he will have In­vestigathns made into its workings with the view to have lts functions made more applicable to the neces­sities of the people, either by means of legislation or amended regulations :J

The ATTOR~EY-GENERAL (Hon. J. W. Blair, Ipswich), for the Secretary for Agriculture (Hon. T. O'Snllivan), replied-

The question is too vague to amnyer definitely, but any specific complaint will be fully investigated.

SPHEAD OF PRICKLY PEAR.

Mr . • T. M. HUNTER asked the Secretary for Agriculture-

Has the department taken an.v steps to ascertain the advisablene~s of offering a bonus for the destruction of emns and scrub magpies, with the view to prevent the ~pread of prickly year i-

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, for the Secre­tary for Agriculture, replied-

Xo. "\V ARDEN AT RAVENSWOOll,

Mr. J ACKSO::\ (Kennedy) asked the Secre­tary for Mines-

1. Is it a fact that the Under Secretary for Mines, just orior to the recent general election, wrote to the warden at Ravenswood, who is also returning officer,

88 Address in Reply. [ASSEMBLY.] Address in Reply.

warning him that complaints had been made as to his partiality, and advising him to be more careful in the future:¥

2. If so, who made the complaints, ~~nd who gave the Under Secretary instructions to 1vritc such a lette1·?

3. Did tl1e returning officer write a reply, pointing out that at previous elections all the candidates had exrwessed the great e., t satisfaction at the manner in which he had carried out his duties, and asking for a public service inquiry~

4. Is it intended to grant such inquiry? 5. VVill the Minister lay the correspondence on the

table of the House?

The SE\'RETARY FOR l\IINES replied-1. Ye>. 2. Cannot say who made the complaint. Instrnetions

to write letter given by the late }Iiuistcr for ).lines f]ir. P, J. Lcahy).

3. Yes. 4. 1\'ill lle considered, 5. Yes.

\Vhereupon the hon. gentleman laid upon the tl'llle the correspondence referred to.

STATlJ~ SMELTI"'G \VORKR.

Mr. JACKSON asked the Secretary for Mines-

In Yie'Y of the great importn.nc~c to the whole of the Queensland mining industry of Lhe establishment of a State smelting works, will he c~iuse to be obtained an exhaustive report by a mining and smelting expert on the desirability of the Government establishing such works at an early date:-

The SECRETARY FOR MIXES replied­:J.:Ir. Jackson, the Chief InspPctor of }lines. has been

called upon to furnish a report on the neef',sity for the establishment of a State smelter in Queensland.

TESTATORS' FAMILY MAINTEXANCE BILL.

FIRS~· READING.

.On the. motion of Mr. KKNN A (Bowcn), this Brll was mtroduced and read a first time. The second reading was made an Order of the Day for Thursday, 2nd April.

MOUXT l\10LLOY Tll\IBER CONCES­SION.

. On the motion of l\Ir. WOODS (Woothakata), rt was formally resolved-

That there be laid on the table of the House copies of all papers a!ld correspondence between the Government and the l\fount ~Iolloy Company relative to the timber conce«":lion granted to the said company, together with a copy of the agreement.

ADDRESS IN REPLY.

RESG}!PTION OP DEBATE.

Question stated-That the following Address he presented to the Governor in reply to the Speech dAli,·ered by His Excellency in onening this the fir.Rt session of the seventeenth Parlia­ment (vide page 38), on which Mr. Philp had moved, "That the question be amended by the omission therefrom of all the words after the second paragraph."

Mr. BOWMAN (Fortitude Valley), who was received with Labour "Hear, hears," o11id: The Address in Reply, which we have before us to-day, and which, since its introduction, the leader of the Opposition proposes to amend, is one of unusual interest to members of this Ohamber, and evidently the leader of the Oppo­oition thought so when he moved that a portion of

[Mr. Bowman.

that Address should he vetoed. I think there are good reasons why the amendment, as moved ty the leader of the Opposition, should be rejecced.

GovERcO!ENT A"'D LABOUR ME,JBERS: Hear, hear!

Mr. BO\Vl\IAN: It is within the memory of every m em her-whether he is an old member or a new one-what transpired last Parliament. \Vith regard tn the general question of the Address in Reply, I do not propose to go fully into it, because l will try to confine myself as closely as I can to the constitutional aspect of it. It is well known what led up to the crisis; but, perhaps, for the benefit of mPmhers who were not here it is as well that this afternoon I should give a short risuuui of the incident that led np to the dissolution. Certain Bills were introdnced by th~ present leader of the House in the last Parliament, and also in the preceding ParliamAnt, and by a majority of the members of this Chamber it was agr<eed that these mea· sures should he placed on the statute·book. \Ve were told yesterday, when the leader of the Opposition was speaking, that those measures had never been before the c0untry. I admit that the question of the postal vote was not before the country, but the question of the Wages Boards Bill was.

Mr. SmiERSET: Not in that form.

Mr. BOWMA!S': \Vh<·n the leader of the Opposition was speaking- ye,terclay he tried to confme the House by saying that it was one l3ill. There were two Bills embodied under the heading of an amended Factories and Shops Act, but they were distinct so far as their opera­tion was conc'!rned, and, to meet the rec~sons that some members of another Chamber gave for throwin!.( that Bill out, the late l\linister for Public \Vorb, the Hon. T. O'Sullivan, deter­mined that these two l3ills should be introduced separately, but just in the same form as before. (Hear, hear !) The same reading- matt.er was. there as in the previous measure. \Ve were told yesterday' by the leader of the Opposition that the \V ages Boards Bill was wider in its scope when it was introduced last seosion than what it was previously. I interjected that one of his colleagues-the la\e Minister for Railways, Mr. Campbell-was the hon. member who introduced the amendment in the Hl06 \V ages Boards Bill for widening the scope of the measure. (Hear, hear ~) The hon. member for ::'lloreton moved that ''any tradf' or businPss'' where the em~ players and employees desired to come under the provisions of that special bo!'rd would be able to do so.

l\fr. W. H. BARNES: What is the designation of trade?

l\lr. BO\V.:\1AN : As is known to most hon. members, I moved an amendment on the hon. gentleman's amendment for the deletion of the word "and," with the view of substituting the word "or," so as not to make it imperative that both parties should agree before they could come under it. As I explained when we were dis· ctlssing this Bill, if any section, either em· players or employees, desired to come under the provisions of the Bill, then the opportunity should he given to them, and, if neither cared to come under it, then they would not he forced to do so. The question of the Elections Act was also before this Hou•e last session, and, in the opinion of the majority of the members of the House, it was thought wise to amend the Bill hy getting rid of the clause relating­to the postal·vote system. It wa,; proved. to the satisfaction of all members on all srdes of the House, after members had stood up. and spoken, that there had been a good deal of

Address 1n Reply. [12 }lARCH.] Address in Reply. 89

cor;upLion ~n connection with the postal vote, wh!Ch, I thmk, was mtensified during the bst election.

Mr. J.EXKINBON: By all parties.

Mr. BO\VMAX: I am not disputing that it was by all parties. I know all puties did things co?trary to what they should have done, but that m . m;e of the strongest reaBons why it should be ehmmated from our Elections Act, so that we could go on with the sv,tem without the postal vute. {Hear, hear!) ·Now, when the Premier snbmittc·d those two Bills to another Chamber they refused to carry out the desires of the majority in this Chamber and the Premier very wisely, in my opinion, r~sented the inter· ference on the part of another Chamber who wished to cast aside the wishes of the majority of the people's representatives in this Chamber. (Hear, hear!) \Ye were told ye,terday, both by the leader of the Opposition and by the hon. member fur Fassifern, that there was a marked difference between the action of the Legislative Council in refusing those measures as compared with the Heform Bill that was thrown out by the House of Lords when it was before that Chamber. I contend that there is no dtfference at all. It was a ques~i'?n of one House refusing to abide by the ?ep.swn of the people's representati,es. The ag1tatwn for the Reform Dill in England may have gone on longer than the aaitatiun for the men,sures rejected by the Council ~vent on in Queensland, uut I would remind hon. members that we fought for more than a do,en yeare for electoral retorm in this State, and never got it passed through the Council, or even through this Chamber, in a form satisfacLory to the people, unt1l the late l'viorgan-Kidston Government came into power.

Mr .• TENKI:\'SON: \Vhen did the Council throw out an Electoral Reform Bill? ·

Mr. BOWMAN: After the spee~h we had from the walking encyclopmdia on the front Opposition bench last night, I am surpri,ed that the hon. member has forgotten when an Electoral Reform Bill was thrown out by the Fpper House. N" later than 1904 an El~ctoral l:teform Bill passed uy the Assembly was thrown out by the Council, and a special session was held in the following year to again pa•~R that measure.

The HmiE SECRETAHY: \Vhich was introduced on a mandate from the people.

Mr. BO\VMAN: Yes, as the hon. gentleman says, it was introduced on a mandate from the people given to a House recently returned by the country.

Mr. BAHXES : A mandate which has never been carried out as desired by the people.

:i'.Ir. BOWMAN : It may not have been earned out m the way a certain clas; deo>ired, but I think the general community is satisfied with the Elector~! Heform Act which was then passed, except the postal vote provisions. The postal vote provisions now in the Act are not the jJrovisions which were introduced by this House. The Upper House is responsible for the insertion of the provision allowing justices of theyeace to attest ballot·paper;;. After the ex­penence we have had .of that system, I think that most men who desire to have a fair ti"bt in carrying out an election campaign would be glad to see those provisions repealed. Mr. Justin McCarthy, in a book entitled "Mordern Eng· land," refers to the question of the Heform Bill in Eng-land, and points out that the Ministrv of that day not only asked, but demanded that the King should give his coment to the ~reation of new peers in writing. On page 27(j Mr. Jl,fcCarthy says-

. ~othing was to be _done unless "\Villi am would give lus con~ent to the creatwn of new peers. r.ord Broughani.,

who accompanied IJord Gl'ey. in one momentous inter­view with the ~overeign, went so far as to insist that the consent must even be given in writing. The poor King had no other eonrse open to him than to ~~ield to stern necessitY. lie ha(t argued with the inex­orable long enough, and he was thoroughly tired of the futile argument. He gave his consent. and he gave it even in writing. "·'rhe Kint{ grants permission to J,ord Grey and his Chancellor h>rd Brougham, to create such a numher d peers as will ensure the pass­ing of the Reform Bill." were the words of the eon;;;ent written on the paper which the King, at last submis­sive, handed to the rigorons and uneourtly Lord Brougham. Earl Grey hall no necessity to have additional peers created, because the House of Lords passed the Bill withtJut the creation of new peers. The Premier of the Kidston Government, being de. sirons of getting legislation passed which the majority of r"presentatives in this House wanted placed on the statute-book, asked the Governor that power should be g·iven him to appoint a sufficient number of membars to another Cham· ber, just as J~arl Grey and Lord Brougham asked the King to consent 1 in writing, to the creation of new peers, if nece,sary. That was denied him ; hence his resignation. The leader of the Oppo­sition was then sent for, and, as we all know, he formed a Ministry; and it will be within the memory of every member who was herein the last Parliament that he met his \Vaterloo very early -in fact, he met h:df a dozen \Yaterloos. There

·was never any confidence in the bon. gentleman as the leader of a Government, not even for five minutes after he took his seat as the leader of the Hntl'oe. The House refused to allow him to carry on the work of the session. As the Premier, Mr. Kidston, stated last night, the hon. gentleman was not anxiou8 for a di8~olution if he could have got the suppor1l of members of the Labour and Kidston parties. Had he got that support, no election would have taken place, but we were not going to allow a man who bad been discredited as the leader of a party at the previous election, and six times discrediterl in this Chamber, an opportunity to carry on the legisla­tion which had been left by his prede~essors.

Mr. BAHNES : Do not forget that when the· Ministry resigned the leader of the Opposition had the largest party in the House.

Mr. BO\V:\IAN: I do not want to take away from the h,m. member for B•Jlimba uny kudos that is due to his party. T~ey had the largest party numerically in the House, but there was. a combined party in the House which over­shadowed the party of which the hon. member is a prominent supporter. At the preceding election-that i,, the election of 1D07-the corn· bined party had a majority of 33,000 votes over the Philp party, so that the Government, with the aid of the Labour party, could have carried out the programme they presented to Parliament early in the Ression. But they were nnt given an opportunity to do that. Before His :B~x. cellency took his late advis"r" to his bo,om they had been discredited in the country, and they were afterwards discredited on tbe floor of this House. '!'hey were humiliated more than any Govern­ment has ever been humiliated in the history of c.Jueensland. The Governor waR very plainly told before the di,solution was granted, in a memorial presented to him by the memhers of the Labour party and members of the Kidston party, that there were twelve rea~ons, very fair reasons, why the House shonid not be dissolved. \Ve were twitted last night by the hon. member for Fassi­fern with being hypocritical, because as members of the Labour party who are pledged to the abolition of the LT pper House we attached our names to a mem0rial with the view of getting a reform of the Council which, in my opinion, will ultimately bring about its abolition. (Hear, hear!) If the question of the abolition of the

Mr. Bowman.]

90 Addnss in Reply. [ASSEMBLY.] Address in Reply.

Council were to be submitted to the people by a referendum to-day, I believe it would result in an affirmative vote.

LABOUR TIIEliiBERS : Hear, hear !

0PPOSI'riON MEMBERS : X o, no 1

2\ir. BOvVMAN : I believe it would result in a declaration on the part of the majority of the people that there was no further use for the CounciL

:M:r. JE:-IKINHON : You move for a Bill, and I will support you.

Mr. BOWMAN : The Premier spoke last night about the .best method of bringing about the abolition of the Council. He said that per­sonally he was in favour of abolishing the nominee Chamber.

Mr. JENKINSON: No; he said that privately he was.

Mr. BOWMAN: The Premier stated that t 1at was his nrivate opinion, and he publicly stated on the floor of this House that it was neither useful nor ornamental. The hou. gentleman

voted in favour of a motion for the [4 p.m.] abolition of the Council which was

introduced either by the hon. 1nem her for Bow en or the hon. member for Clermont. The Premier stated that he believes that the best method of bringing ahout the abo·. lition of the Council is to have a constitutinnal referendum, which would make the people all powerful over the nominee Chamber. 'rhat was one of the principles that was submitted by the hon. gentleman last session in the Governor's Speech, and it was also included in the platform on which he went to the country. His proposal was that., after a Bill had been twice submitted to the Council and twice rejected by that House, it should be submitted to the people. Those who signed the memorial last session-or the present IE'ader of the Government, when he sub­mitted it to the Governor through you, Sir-told His Excellency that the possibilities of this House had not been exhausted: and they were not exhausted. (Hear, hear !) 'When the present leader uf the Opposition was repeatedly defeated, he should have had the decency to tender his resignation.

LABOl:R MEMBEHH : Hear, hear!

}[r. BO\VMAN: There was a majority against him time after time. I think that the numbers in the last two divisions that were taken were 27 to 37-a majority of 10 against the then Government. It has been stated by many of those sitting on the direct 0 pposition benches, and by many of their candidates, that it would have been a mistake, and that the Governor would have been going out of his way in sending for Mr. Kidston after h>tving tendered his resign,.tion. There is nothing very singular about that. \Vhen '!\fr. Deakin wa" defeated in the Federal Parliament, the Governor-General sent for ::\fr. \V atson, the leader of the Labour party. Mr. \Vatson continued in office for some . nonths.

}Ir. \V. H. BAHNES : There was no question ;,f stuffing the Upper House there.

l\fr. BARBER: It was an elective House.

Mr. BOvV::\IAN: Mr. \Vatson was defeated over a clause in the Arbitration Bill. Then Mr. Reid was sent for. He curied on for some time, when he met his \Vaterloo. The Governor· General did not grant a dissolution to Mr. Reid when he asked for it; but he sent again for the man who was first defeated-the Hon. Alfred Deakin, who to-day still sits there as Federal Prime Minister.

Mr. KEOGH: With sixteen of a following.

[Mr. Bowman.

Mr. BOWMAN: It does not matter whether he has a following of sixteen or a following of sixty. He is able to conduct the business of the Federal Parliament evidently to the satisfaction of a majority in that Parliament. (Hear, hear!) The argument that I .a!" advancing this_ after­noon is that the nossJbJht1es of the last Parhament of Queensland~ were not exhausted when the Governor granted a dissolution. The Governor granted a dissolution when the House had refmed Supply. Todd, in his "Parliamentary Govern­ment in the British Colonies," quoted the state­ment of Sir Erskine May, on page 192. He says-To dissolve Parliament before Appropriation has been made for the public serYice is so serious an eYil that the Governor is entitled to the highest credit for his endeavours to discourage such n practice; and I have no doubt he will continue to discountenance 1t by every means in bis power. But I yentu~e to ~ugge~t tha.t in future the Governor, after dtscnssmg wtth h1s Ministers all the circumstances under which they ad­vise a dissolution, including the financial situation and the probability of obtaining Sup~Jies, should ~i~her ac­cept or decline their advice without cond1t10ns, or should defer his decision until eYery effort ha.s hecn ~ade to ~ecure tbe Supplies and to ayert a dissolution.

I claim that every effort was not made in those directions in thi• House last year.

GoYERN)!EXT AND I~ABOcR ME)IBEI!H : Hear, hear!

Mr. BO\VMA~: The ({overnor was told time after time that Supplies could be granted-but granted to the rig-ht party. The_ House was not going to grant :::lupplies to a d1scred1ted party. Hon. members made it very clear from the outset that they were going to have nothing- at all to do with a. party which had not the confidence of t~e House, which showed that that party had not 1J;s confidence from the very first afternoon that 1t sat on the Tre.tsury benches.

JHr. PETRIE: You wanted certain legislation.

Mr BO\YMAN : I do not hesitate to tell the hon. 1~1ember for Tnombul that we are here in the interests of the Jegisla,tion we W>Lnt. I thought I made that clear in my statement as leader of the Labour party.

LABOUR J\.IE)!BERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. BOWMAN: I do not hesitate to say that we want measures; and, so long as we can get them, we are going to support the men who will give them to us every t1me.

LABOl:R ::\IE)IBERS : Hear, hear ! }fr. RYLAND: You are right.

Mr. BO\VMAI\" : 'rhe Government that had resiconed had not suffered a defeat from the tim: they first came in as the Coalition Government in 190:1. They had not suffered one defeat in this House until the crisis took place last year, when the Premi~r said that h_e \~as going to have the e_xpressed w11l of the ma)onty of this House earned out, or he was gomg to find some special solutiun for it.

Mr. \V. H. BAHXES: You cannot say that now, anyway .

Mr. BOWMAN: \Ve can say it more emphatically than ever, becauile we have been to the country since then, and we have reduced the hon. member's party by five.

LABOl:R MEMBERS: Hear, hear !

:Mr. BOWMAN: \Ve stand here to-day a stronger combined party than we were then.

Mr. RYLAND: vVe are encroaching on these benches. (Laughter.)

Mr. BOWMAN: \Veil, the hon. memher is in dangerous company. (Laughter.) The Philp Government were unable to carry on, and they asked for a dissolution. Todd is very interesting

.Address in Reply. [12 }fARCH.l .Address in Repl,y. 91

·Dn that question. I hope hon. members will excuse me for reading quotations, but Todd is an undoubted authority, and I propose to read what he says on this question. On pages 760, '761, and 762, Todd sayo-

From the seriou:::; consequences which may follow the administration of this prerogative, it is mR.nifest that it should be resorted to with great. caution and t'or­Oearance. Preqnent, unnect:•ssar.v, or abrupt dissolu­tion:;; of Parliament inevitably tend to "blunt the edge of a great instrument, given to the Crown for its pro­tection"; and, wheneYer they have occurred, they have been fraught w1th danger to tbe Commonwealth.

The personal sanction of the Sovereign-after ,deliherate inquiry, and in the exercise of an un­fettered judgment-must be giYen to the advice or recommendation of a ~1inister" whenever it is pro­posed to have recourse to the prerogative of dis­solution. ''Upon such an occasiOn, the Sovereign -ought by no means to be a passive in~trument in the hands .of his :Jlinisters: it is not merely his right but his duty to exercise his judgmen~ in the ad­·vice they may tender to him; and though, by refusing to act upon that advice. he incurs a serious responsi­bility, if they should in the end prove t,o be supported by 1JU1)Jic opinion, there is, perhaps, no case in which this responsibilit:· may be more safely and more usefully incurred than when ~Iinisters have ::~sked to be allowed to appeal to the people from a rlechion pronounced against them by the House of r')llUtlOllS. l•'or they might prefer this request when there was no probability of the vote of the House being reversecl by the nation, ~nd when the measure would he injurious to the public

~~t;;:~~;~· to I~ll~~?~ d~s~~1s~tf~~. Sovereign ought clearly

'fhe Sovereign has an undoubted constitutional right to withhold his consent to the applicrttion of a Minister that he snould dissolve rarlia,ment. But, on the other ha11d, the Crown can only grant a dissolntioit .upon the ad vice of a responsible Minister. H the )Iinister to whom a dissolution ha.-; been refused is not willing to accept the decision of the :Sovereign, it is his dutv to resign. He must then he replaced by a_n<?t_llf'r :::\Iinister, who i~ prepared to a9cept full respon~ Slblhty for the act of the Sovereign, and for its com.;e~ (1uences, in the judgment of Parliament.

It is evident, tberefore, that the Sovereign-Wllen, in the exercise of this p1·erogativc, a dis~oiution is either granted or refused-must be sustained and justified hy ·the agreement of a responsible l\Iinister. If this be constitutionally necessarv ab respect~ the Sovereign, it is doubly so in the ca:::e of a. Gon~rnor. For the SoYerei_gn is not -personally. responsible to :my earthly authont.r; but a Governor IS direc~ly re~ponsible to the Crown for every act of his Administration.

·whenever the popular Cbamber refusfcS its confidence to Minister::~, the question whether, in doing so, it has ·correctly expns.sed the opinion of the country may properly be snbmittt-d to tbe test of a dissolution of Parliament. ~evertheless. in the words of Charles James Fox, quoted by ~ir Robert Peel in 18-n, it is dangerous to admit or any oth~r recognised. organ of public ovinion than the House of Commons. So long as l)arliament may be reasonably pre~nmed to represent the wishes of tlJe people, it is not necessary to go bey(,Ud Parliament to ascertain them. But, when this .point is doubtful, the Constitution permits of a dis~ .::;olutwn for tbe purpose of solving the doubt.

_It rests with the S?vereign, however-or, in a colony, With the representat1 ve of the SoverPign-to determine the (1UeRtion whether, in a p~rticnlar instanee, a disso­luticn of Parliament shall or shall not be allowed.

Now,. the point that I wish specially to deal with 1s that, "So long as Parliament may be reasonably presumed to reprt•sent the wishes of the people, it i~ not competent to go beyond Parliament to ascertain them." I want to know, -even from the most biassed bon. member sitting on this side, whether he is not batisfied that a majo~ity ?f the representatives of the people were m th1s Chamber ea pable of carryinv out the work they were sent here to carry out.

:\fr. \V. H. BARXES : The Premier had rA­signed, and you were quarrelling amongst your­seh·es.

::\Ir. BOWMAN: \Ve bad no quarrel respect­ing the work the joint parties took up and were

·Carrying through with credit to both parties when the crisis arose.

An HoNOGRAIJLE MEMillm: \Vhat about the memorial?

Mr. BOWMAN: I have quoted thP memorial.

::\Ir. ,JE)IKINSON : Read the letter you sent to the Premier.

Mr. BO\VMAN: The question of that letter was brought up by the leader of the Opposition, as well as by the hon, me m her for Fassifern. The reply to that letter was that we were a distinct party, \Ve went to the country in 1907 as a distinct party, and we went to the country as a distinct party in 1008. \Ve show by our attitude in this corner that we are a di8tinct party, and will not coalesce with the other side, as was suggested in the letter. 'fhat is our reply, and if the hon. gentleman has any powers of observation, I ask him to glance at this corner if he wiflhes to be convineed

Mr. JENKINSON: \Vhy did he ask you to coalesce? To browbeat the Legislative Council, and you declined.

Mr. BO\VMAN : The hon. gentleman is wrong, At every meeting that I addressed in J<'ortitude Valley, and at every meetine- I ad­dressed on behalf of other candidates throughout Queeneland--and l went over a great deal of country,'" hon. members know--I stated most explicitly that we were in favour of the abolition of the epper House, \Ve knew the task was a verY great one, but we were prepared as a party to take the nearest step towards aboli<hing it, and would support the Constitutional Referendum Bill as submitted by the Premier. Now, I want to quote another authority in reference to dis­solution, and I suppose no hon, rr,ember will dispute the ability of the hon, gentleman whose words I am going to quote, for while he livetl no man bad a greater or perhaps as great an ex­perience of the British Constitution as the Eight Hon. \Villiam Ewart Gladstone during his l'ixty­four years of public life. These are :\fr. Glad­stone's words-

" It baR been my tHsk :md m.Y delight." he said, at the close of his days, "to work the institntwns of my country," and here iH how thb great practical states­man summed up the British Constitutlon :-

"It presumf'"' more boldly than any other the good faith and the good sense of those who work it. Tbe undoubted competency of each part reaches even to the paral.n-is or de~truction of the rest. The !-:c.t~se 0f Commons is entitled to refnse eve1·y shilling vf the Sup­plies. 'fhat House, and also the House of I;ords, is entitled to refuse its nssent to every Hill presented to it. The Crown is entitled to make a thousand peers to­day and as many to-morrow; it may dissolve every Parliament before it proceeds to business; may pardon the most atrocious crimes; may declare war aga,inst. all the world; may coHclnde treaties involving- nnlhnited responsibilitie", and even Yast expenditure, without the knowlrdgc of Parliament, lnlt in rcYer::.wl of policy already known and sanctioned by the nation. Jlnt the as~umption is that. the depositarieo;, of power will all respeet one another; will evince a consciousness that theY are working in a common interest t'or a eommou end; and that thP'l- will be possessctl, together \Vith not less than an average intellig-ence, of not less than an~ average sense of equily and of tLe public interest of right." The late William Ewart Gladstone did not talk as some gentlemen who now occupy the Opposi­tion benches do. He did not quote the G0vernor as being a wonderful constitutional authority whose opinion ought. to be taken a~ against th•.t of everybody else. l\ir. Gladstone does not con­fine himself even to the ablest lawyer in Parlia­ment. He specifically lays it down to men of average intelligence and an avera/?e sense of equity in the public inter8sts of life. \Vhen the Governor granted that dissolution there were a few prophecies made on the fl0or of this House. One was that the Philp party wonld he wiped out-sent into political oblivion, At any rate, they have been reduced materially; they have lost a number of their best men.

Mr. Bowman.]

92 .Address i~> Reply. [A8SEMBLY.] .Address in Reply.

Mr. J. ::u. HGN'rgn: The"l' have been reduced by one-sixth. ·

Mr. BOIV:\IAN: They have received such an answer from the country that cannot be doubted by :tnybody.

Mr. BARXES: They represent 80,000 of the electors.

Mr. BOWMAN: A nu there are over 100,000 against them, and they are to-day in the invidi­ous position of sitting in the cold shades of Opposition. Tlw hon. member has been lament­ing, ever since the Philp 1finistry was formed, that he did not get a seat on the frout Treasury bench. He has been looking for a portfolio for a long time. _-\nd he is now as . .;;nming a rl.is~ paraging attitude towards his leader. Probably he is fishing for the position of leader of the constitutional Opposition. He has gone back on an old frienrl, who took him when he left our fold, anc1 embracec1 him and bound him to himself. He is disrmraging him because there is nothing more that he <:an g-'Lin from his IPader. It is very unRrateful. But perhaps the hon. member for Fassifern does not doubt that he is the man who should lead. He has told the peopie in his public uttenwces that it is time they had a younger leader. He is going back un an ~'old pal."

:i\Ir. ,J EN KIN SO:\': I do not go behind bis back to say what I think.

i\Ir. BOW}IAN: I contend that ,,s the result of the g-eneral election, and the qnestions that were before the country, the Premier has got the answer that he :o:ow:.{ht frmn the Governor himself. The G-overnor sairi this was a unnstitutional question ; he would not answer it himself, but would leave it to the will of the people. They have answered that what n.Ir. Kids ton tendered his resig-nation for must be granted-that the legislation that was defeated in another Chamber by the influence of some persons who were personally interested in connection with one particular Bill sh~ll he passed as it leaves this House. That, I think, is as clear as daylight. They have also staterl emphatically that tlwre was no necessity for the dissolution ever to have taken place. They have stated that the Kidston Government could h>1ve carried on the bminess he brought forward in 1!J07, and they have con­firmed what they did in 1907 by sending Mr. Kirlston back with increased strength. ·when the leader of thA Opposition took office he threatened this House with a dissolution if we did not concur with him. I do not suppose that either the hon. member for Bulimba or the hon. member for Fassifcrn will admit that the Sydney Jiorniny He1·alil is anything of a demo­cratic organ. It is far from that, and as far as I have re>d, it is much fairer than many pRpers in Qneenslrtnd. This is what the Sydney 1VIorn­ing Herald said in connection with that threat used by the present leader of the Opposition-. It is not open to any ~Iinister to wave the promise of a dissolution in the face of the House with a view to bringing it to beel a.t eriticalmoments like this. That might ea,sily be eonRtrn~d as an interference with the independen~c of Parlhl.ment. and an undue use of the prerogative for party purposes. There is a reputable journal which condemns the action of the leader of the late Government on that occasion. To my mind, the bright spot and the welcome result of the wAakne,,s of the Go­vernor and the selfi"hness of his political asso­ciates was the calm and deliberate way in which the people told the Governor and his adviser., that tbev were wrong-that there was no need for a dissolution, which entailed " new election at an expense of £20,000 or £30,000, and which bung up the works and railway policv which the Governm~nt were prepared to go on with last session. 1Ir. Kidston was preparect to go on

[Mr. Bo,li)Jnan.

with hi, programme until he had carried it through. I assert that the Governor and those who were his advisers-and particulnriy the ad­visers-are responsible for the number of unemployed that there are in Queenslanc1 to-day. Anct the result of the appeal to the country is that we are in the happy position to-day of being able to settle any differences that may exist between political parti~s. or even with the King's represen ta ti v e.

An HoxOGRABLE ME>IBER: You have to thank the Governor for that.

Mr. BO\Yl\lAN: \Ve did not want it. ·\Ye have nothing to thank the Governor for. It is now ";u; you ,,-ere," only that there are now five less of the party who hrought about the dis.solu­tion. That is the difference. The disting-uish-

ing ch'Lracteristic abCJut the leader [4.30 p.m.] of the 0 pposition, the late Premier,

was the desire to hold office. That was the trouble with him ; he wanted office. I told him in the last speech I rmtde in the last Parliament that they had been trying for the la't four years to g-et on the Tre:1sury benches. They were there for a brief time ; they held their positions as :\Iinisters for a few months. They were preparec1 to be J\finisters either by the electors' mandate or by the favour of thr Governor, who was ill ad ,-ised, and it suited them equally as well us if they had been elected.

Mr. \V. H, B.-<RNES: You have no right to talk of the GovPrnor in that way.

1Ir. BOIV:\IAX: It is not a matter of per­sonal attack at all. I am simply astonished that His Excellency came to the conclusion to do that on the advice given him by your leader.

Mr. 11ANN: And in spite of the majol'ity of this House.

Mr. BOWMAX: And in spite of the majority of this House repeatedly. l can just imagine the joy it gave those hem. gentlemen who were acting in the capaci1 y of Ministers during ~hat brief period to be able to put their hands mto the public purse-the purse that wa; given to them on the Governor\~ warrant. There was no responsibility at all as far as this House was coi_J­cerned. l3ut they had nothing to lose; the1r political reputa•ion had gone yea~s ago. _\Vhen the coalition in 1()04 were workmg cunJomtly together, they very nearly wiped the hon. gentle­man's party out of Pxistence There was a con­flict in 1907 between the Labour p11rty and the Kidston party equally as bitter as we were against the hon. member. That was the chance of their lifetime, and they coulc1 not even get back then. And here, although the parties wer& in son1e caseq running counter to each other, we are able to keep them in the cold shades of Oppo­sition, where, in my opinion, they will be fol' many a long day, and they deserve it.

LABOUlt MEMBEUS : Hear, hear t :\lr. BOWMAN: I think if thev were the

patriots they pose to be, they would "never havfr taken otficP, or, at least, tbey would not have· retained office by the consent of the Governor.

Mr. RYLAND: As long as they g-ot it, they did not care how they g-ot it.

~Ir. BOW:VIAN: I do not think the people of (~ueensland wanted to be asked twice within a few monthe. I think they were perfectly satisfied that the majority which was given in ~!}07 was quite sufficient, without coming back m a few months' time, and I believe that what very largely helped to bring about the reduction ?f the Oppo,;ition wa• the bad taste they showed m going to the country.

Mr ;fENKIN.-;ON interjected. Mr. MANN : Look how the CoH1·ic1' fought for

you.

Address in Reply. [12 }fARCH.] .Address m Reply. 93

Mr .• TENKINSON: They did the party a lot of harm.

GovEUN3!ENT ::\IE3IBE!tS : Hear, hear !

::\Ir. BOWMAN : During that cri si' there was never a hint or sugge,tion from the Opposition, prior to the resignation of the present Premier being handed in, that there was any corruption on the part of either the :\Iinisters or members generally. The question was purely a political one, and it was one of doubt. The Governor, betDi' in a minority, w,wted the people to decide that specific question, which they have done un­hesitatingly. He dismi'"ed his responsible ad· visers on the understanding what the question was to be. He told them in the o,nswer he sent to the Premier-which you, Sir, read here at the end of last Parliament-that it was the consti­tutional question which had to be settled. Either the Gm·ernor abandoned his contention that the question should be put to the people as a first principle, or he was persuaded into trying to in­duce the Philp party to carry out the pledges to Parli,.ment and the people. j'\ ow, the Philp party were eager to come back as :\Iinisters, and, in trying to do so, when they took up the q ues­tion in the country they did not hesitate to be­smirch what was 8ait! in the King's name. \Vas the constitutional C[Ubtion ever raised by these gentlemen sitting in Uppooition ?,

LAilOUI< 1\IE>JBEns : l\ o; never.

::\[r. BOWMAN : Did the daily papers in Brisbane, ann a number of them through QueensLwd, bring to the front the constitntionnl question? Nothing nf the kind. It was socialism v. anti-socialism ; \V ages Boards Bill, eight hours a day and eight shillings a day, and any­thing but the one question which the Governor told them they were to go to the country on.

:\Ir .• JENKINSON: Xo. Mr. UOWAP : The marriage tie.

Mr. BO\V::\fA:i'\: Yes, even the marriage tie was brought very prominently forward by a man I was surprised to think would raise it-by a man who poses that he will not bear false witness .against his nPighbour.

LAilOUR MEo!BEHS: Hear, hear !

Mr. BO\VMAN: A man who imnuted that those views were held by the Socialistic pt1rty, of which I am the leader. I never di.<guised the fact that I was a socialht. I advocated it from every platform I spoke on, ann I would sooner be outside this Houi<e to-day than go back on the principles I believe in.

Mr. JESKINSOS: You do everything but act.

Mr. BOWMA:01: I have never been an acrobat, like the hon. gentleman.

1\Ir. JENKINSON: You were born that wav; you could not help it.

Mr. BO\VMAK: I remember when the hon. member first came into this Chamber he was a rabin land-taxer. (Laughter.) The rnen,bers for Gym pie, who are here to-day, got a number of friends in Gympie to go through the \Vide Bay electorate.

::Yir. JENKINSON: Absolutely untrue.

Mr. BOvVMAX: They fought for lnm a' strongly as men could fight, because they believed he was a political Purita,n. I am also reminded by the hon. member for Gympie that he was supported by the Labour paper. He comes to Brisbane and recants-goes back on it. He is a member for an agricultural district, and it is not at all proper to be a land-taxer in an agricultural district.

Mr. JENKINSON: I told my electors about that, and they returned me on the change of opinion. (Laughter.)

Mr. BOW:\IAN: That does not get away from the fact. The hon. member cannot bring one instance where I have been an acrobat in politics; but I have proved to-day on his own admission that he Ius been a political acrobat, and will be to the end of time.

:\Ir. ,JENKINS01': I changed my opinion; I was moderate. I am true to the principles I advocate. You are false; with you it is simply lip service-that is all.

Mr. BO\VMAX: If I were like you I would make a hole in the river.

1'Ir .• JENKINSON: You are too fond of sweating people to make holes in the ri ,-er.

The SEORET.U<Y FOR PCBLIC LANDS: Order !

Mr. BO\VMAX: The hon. member should be the last man in this House to talk about another hon. member sweating. \Vhy, his printing shop was t.be biggest sweating shop in Brisbane.

LA!lOCR JliiE1IBERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. BOW:VIAX: He paid the rottenest wages. Any dead-beat who came along and wanted a job, the hon. member wouln give him work because he would do it for a few shillings less than the standard wage.

Jliir. \VooDs: He:tr, hear!

Mr. BOWMAN: The hon. memb.or 'hould be the last man in this Chamber to mention sweat­ing. He lives in a glass house.

Mr .• JENKD!SON: I stopped many a man from going on tbe State, but you woulclnot do that.

The SPEAKER: Order! }fr . .JE:SKINSON: You want to p:>uperise

people, but I don't. THE SEUI\E'l'ARY FOR RAILWAYS: \Vho is

making this speech? ::\Ir. BO\V:VIAN: As I have already stated

this afternoon, when the constitutional ques· tion was brought up it was very clear that the Press wanted to evade it. The membPrs who went to the country as a Government party evaded it, and they were prepared to bring up any other issue that they could get that would "ave them from defeat, but the people as a whole recognised that it was t1 very important question. I do not for one moment f•·-~Y that we did not have to fight the question of socialism rersus anti-socialism. \Ye had to fight that against every candinate who was trotted out against us, but there is not one member of the I,abour party who has gone back on those principles or who has refuted it.

A GOVERN1IENT ME1IBER : They called the Kidston candidates socialists.

Mr. BO\VMAN": Yes; even the members of the Kidston pa.rty were branded as socialists. This afternoon l do not wish to accuse the Governor of any attempt to curb Parliament, nor yet to hint that he made up his mind in view of personal ambition in the action he took to have his own way.

The SECRETARY FOR Pur-Lro LA!ms : Hear, hear!

Mr. BOvVJiiL\.N : But I do say this: I charge him with acts of constitutional folly, w hi eh, if tolerated and repeated, would weaken the autho­rity of the King as a constitutional monarch, and end in a deplorable conflict with the people. (Hear, hear !) There i< no doubt about that. As for those who profited by the blunder of the Governor, they had another try for a position which they coveted, but the Governor thought the people should decide, and their coveted positions were lmt to them by the good sense of the elec­tors throughout Queensland.

Mr. \V. H. BA!tNb:S: You know the Governor acted perfectly constitutionally.

Mr. Bowman.1

94 AddTess in Reply. [ASSEMBLY.] AddTess in Reply.

Mr. BO\YMAK: I do not know that he acted constitutionally. I say that the Governor did wrong. (Hear, hear!) And I am not afraid to say it.

The SPJ~AKER : Order ! I think that the hon. member is hardly within thA limits of the debate in discussing the action of the Governor in that way. I trmt that hon. members will not bring in the name of the Governor.

:Mr. BO\V::\IAN: I did not wish to say any. thing personal against the Governor at all, but I was dmwn off the track by the unruly rnPmber for Bulimba. I spoke very strongly on this matter during the election campaign without being particularly offensive to the Governor. I said then that I considered his action was a wrong one, and th>Lt his action was based on the advice tendered by an incompetent lot of men who were not capable of giving the best advice.

The SPEAKER: I would point out that it would be much better if hon. members, in dis­cussing this question, would do so from the point of view that if anythin.s was done wrong it was done by the advisers of the Governor.

Mr. BOWMAif : Before I conclude I want to refer to the hon. member for Fassifern.

Mr. JENKINSON: Go ahead. There is nothing like a good advertisement.

::'\Ir. BO\VNIAN: You can stand a lot of adver­tising. If you were stuck up outside a pawn­broker's shop you would not attract much atten­tion there. Last night the hon. member for Fassi­fern went so far >ts to make the statement that if the candidates put up by the Labour party were brass monkeys the electors would vote for them.

Mr. JENKINSON: If they were labelled "Labour."

1\Ir. BOW:\IAN: I would say in reply to the hon. gentleman that I would prefer to have a candidate that wa,s branded even as a brass monkey than a brainless donkey like the hon. member for Fassifern. (Laughter.)

The SPEAKER : I would remind the hon. member that he is out of order in making a remark of that kind about the hon. member for Fassifern. It is distinctly disorderly.

Mr. BO\VMAN : It w>Ls no worse than what he said about the Labour party last night.

J\Ir. J EN KIN SON : I was referring to their con­sistency in voting.

Mr. BO\VMAN : There is no doubt that the hon. gentleman simrly threw that out as a slur to the Labour party. There are men sitting here, in the Labour party to-day, that the hon. gentleman is not fit to wipe their boots. There are men sitting in the Labour party to-day who will stand any comparison-in fact, they will stand out greater than the hon. gentleman in the matter of ability, while for political con­sistency there is not one member of this party who would not lose the hon. member in the race.

Mr. JENKINSON : Are you a judge?

Mr. BOWMAN : \Vhy, the hon. gentleman admitted thi,; afternoon that he has been incon­sistent in politics. He admitted that he was a political acrobat. So far as the Labour party ;s concerned, I believe the hon. gentleman may even seek to come into this little fold, but we are vmy particular about the sheep we bring in. (Hear, hear!) We want no black ones. I, at any rate, would be very sorry to be associated with thP. hon. gentleman as a member of the party I belong to.

Mr. JENKINSON: You need not trouble your­self. There is no chance;

[Mr. Bowman.

Mr. BOW.:\IAN: \Vhat I want to say in con­clusion i." that the Governor, in his capacity a& King's representative told the country that he was advised by his advisers--the then Govern­ment-that there was a question which the people had to decide. The question of the Con­stitution was decided emphatically by the people. (Hear, hear !) The late a<lvisers got all the kudos they deserved at the hands of the electors. After what has transpired I, for one,. hope that this House, and the country alw, will give their answer to His Excellency the Go­vernor. A man who would make the mistake that that gentleman made, whether it wa> through his own fault or through the advice of the men who advised him, I say we do not want any more of it.

The SPEAKER: I would point out to h0n. gentlemen that the King or the King's repre­sentative can do no wrong.

Mr. BOWMAK: Doesn't he, though.

The SPEAKER: If there was a mistake made it was made by His Excellency's advisers, and hon. members must discuss it from that point of view.

(),uestion put.

Mr. W. H. BAR~ES (Bulirnba): :ur. 8peaker,--

Mr. LESINA : Oh! let it go through, and let us get to work.

Mr. W. H. BARNES: I have been asked by the hon. member for Clermont to let it go. That hon. gentleman does not show an excellent example in that respect, because I do not know that he is generally acknowledged to be one of those who is particularly brief in the remarks which he has to make to this Chamber. At any rate, whatever the hon. gentleman has to say is always to the point, and is exceedingly good. The hon. gentleman who has just resumed his seat has gone over the ground very fully, and I just want to briefly reply to some of the state­ments which he made to the House this afternoon. He started off by stating that a mandate from the people had been given in one particular direction, and if I followed him correctly, he referred more particularly to the question of the Elections .\et. I am prepared to admit that the mandate of the people is in favour of wiping out the postal vote. \Vhen the hon. member was speaking of the Morgan·Kidston combination, I interjected that the mandate of the people in the matter of electoral reform had not been fully carried out, and I now repeat that statement. One is some­times surprised at the statements which are made by some members-made apparently for the purpoae of catching the public outside who do not think. \Vhat is the position with regard to the so-called one man one vote ? Bver since I have been in this House I have advocated the· principle of adnlt suffrage, but I have ad­vocated it on lines which would be fair to every individual in the community. \V e are tolrl that the mandate of the country in that particular matter has been carried out, and yet we find that in the way in which it i" carried out it is only a myth and a sham. \Vill the hon. member denv the truth of the statement I am about to make-namely, that there are electors in the State to-day who have been hlocked every time as far as that particular matter is concerned'<· Will the leader of the Labour party say that it is a fair thing that twenty·five members sitting on the GoYernment side of the House­should represent only 43,919 votes, while the same number of members on the Opposition side represent 83,fl92 votes-that is, nearly double the number represented by their opponents? If you go into the matter more fully, as was

Add1•ess in Repl_y. [12 MARCH.] Address in Repl,y. 95

done by the hon. member for J!'assifern last night, you will find that the position is even worse than those figures indicate, for the number of electors represented by the twenty-five mem­bers on this side of the House is 100,733, while the number represented by members on the other side is not one-half that. I do not know whether that is called fair representation. Ever since hon. members who arc supported by the Labour party came into the Honse there have been two questions which they have never been game enough, or fair enough, to tackle. They have never been willing, though they have been able because they had the power behind them, to do the fair and square thing in the direction of see­ing that, as far as possible, votes are of equal value. I am prepared to admit that there must be some percentage in favour of country constituencies ; but can any man say that it is a fair thing that one member should repre­sent 7,000 n)ters as the hon. member for Toombul does? Can anyone say that it is a fair thing that the position of electorates should be as it was when we last came back from the country? \Ve have been told that the Labour party have been wanting something that is fair, and yet we find thab they do not object to some constituencies being disfranchised. I maintain that the result of the elections prove'' that, after all, the present Opposition had a very large body of electors behind them. It has been stated over and over again that we were in a minority. The facts, however, go to show that as fitr as votes are concerned we are in a strong majority in this House.

Mr. Dot:GLAS: X ot at all.

Mr. \V. H. BAHNES: The hon. member for Cook will have an opportunity of proving that statement; but I say the facts are against him. Everything goes to show that tl1e so-called fair­ness of s"me hon. members, especially those sitting in the Labour corner, is only something that exists on paper. It is like some of their principles, which they ad vacate with one breath and throw over with another. I am forced to make lhese remarks became the leader of the Labour party stated that we were a discredited party.

GoVERt<:;\IE1\T AND LABOUH MB)JDERS : Hear, hear!

Mr. W. H. BARNES: I say we are not a dis­credited party, and we stand bore to-day as a party who are not afraid no acknowledge their principles. \Ye went to the country firm on our principles, and we would rather come back with our num­b~rs few but free than do anything unfair which would besmirch the name of the Governor of this State.

Mr. JI.L.;.xx: He should be disposed of.

Mr. W. H. BAHNES : If the hon, member were to be disposed of it would not be a calamity as far as this Honse is concerned.

Mr. MANN: That is only gas-» Christian opinion.

Mr. W. H. BARNES: I always thought that whatever a man's opinions are as far as his con~ science ie; concerned, he should be allowed to hold those opinions, and I have never hesiUtted to say what side I am on, nor have I ever been ashamed of my opinions. But I say a member is lacking in ta;te when he constRntly throws a remark of that kind across thA Chamber. The leader of the Labonr party referred to one other matter. I think tbe hon. member for Fassifern rather drew him off th~ track, for I believe the hon. member was going to have a tilt at me with regard to the marriage tie. I now say t.hat I never n1ado the statement the hon. member says I made with regard to the marriage tie. The

statement I made, which I repeat now, was that there are socialists who would go the length of abolishing the marriage tie.

::\fr. BOWilfAN: Are not there some indivi­dualists who are doing it? It was your dirty innuendo.

111r. \V. H. BARNES: I made another state­ment accompanying that, to the effect that I did not believe that the socialists in (-.lueensland were men who would adopt those tactics.

Mr. MArGHAN: Why did you refer to it at all?

Mr. \V. H. BARNES : Because the tendency is in that direct ion.

Mr. HcxHAill: :1\ot at all.

Mr. W. H. BAliNES: I believe I have got some proofs here to show that the tendency is in that direction.

Mr. MANN: \Vhat about the \Vallace divorce caf:le?

Mr. \V. H. BARNES: I do not care whether it is proved in the case of the high or the low, of the

rich or the poor--there is no doubt [5 p.m.J that there are men to-day connected

with the Socialist party whom somP hon. members would probably disown. Still they are socialists, nevertheless.

Mr. Ht:XH<Dl: \Vhat about the individualists?'

Mr. \V, H. BARNES : The hon. member for South Brisbane will have an opportunity of dealing with that question himself. I say emphatically that there are some well-known writers-! am sorry I did not think this was going to cro]J np this afternoon-! have them among my papers, if somebody will find them for me--there are some well-known writers con~ nected with the socialist movement who advo­cate that course. I should be one of the last to say that the hon. member for Fortitude Valley or his colleagues support it.

llfr. Ht:XHAill: They only express their own opinions, anyway.

Mr. W. H. BARNES: Decidedly. I repeat what I said on the public platform-that there are many, nay, nearly all people who call them­selvee 9ocialists in Queensland, who have just as much love for their homes as I have for mine.

Mr. BmniAN: Then why did you bring it up as an argument against the Socialist party in Queensland?

Mr. \V. H. BAHNES : I have been before my constituents, and I have received my answer.

Mr. BmnrAN: You got a good shake, too.

The SPEAKEH: Order !

Mr. W. H. BARX ES : Yes, I got a good shake; and I will tell the House how I got a good shake. The hon, member went round, and he was not satisfied with trying by fair means to oust the then sitting member for Bulimba, but he adopted means which, I regret to say, certainly were not worthy of the leader of an important party.

Mr. Bow:~rAN: I showed you in your true colours, nnyway.

Mr. W. H. BARNES: I say they were not worthy of the leader of an important party in this House.

"'Ir. Bow:~rM, : You played the dirtiest tricks of any candidate in Queensland.

Mr. W. H. BAHNES : I defy the hon. mem­ber to verify that statement.

Mr. BoWMAN: By your allusions to socialists and your innuendo about the marriage tie.

The SPEAKER: Order, order!

Mr. W. H. Barnes.]

:96 AddJ'ess in Reply. [ASSEMBLY.] Addnss ;,n Reply.

:;\fr. W. H. BARXES: I am prepared to take my stand upon anything I said, anrl I repeat the bun. rnernber i~ re8ponsible for bringing it in-I am not responsi~le f,Jr bringing it in-that, as far as the maJnnty of the men who call them­selves socialists are concerned, they ha;'e as much respect for the marriage tie as I have. But I am aware of this fact, all the same-and this is another point-that there are rnen like Jl.ir. Tom ""Iann in ::\Ielbourne who are not only preaching 80cialism, but who are trying by their preaching to undermine some of those institu­tions which many of us bold sacred.

Mr. BOW}IA:<: Some of your own parsons deal with the question of socialism on Sundays.

Mr. W. H. BAR;'-.f:ES: I am not respomible for "some of my own n:trsons," as the hon. member puts it. ·

::\Ir. BOWMAN : I am not either,

Mr. W. H. BAR)[J<JS: I have not said the hon. member is either. \Vhat I have said is that there are gentlemen connected with the socialist movement who are prepared to sweep away the existing condition of things.

Mr. CowAP : Some anti-socialists do it.

Mr. \V. H. BARNES: I do not care about that. They are unworthy of the respect of decent people. If you like, I will give the names of the authors of whom I spoke.

::\lr. ADAliiSOX: \V e know them.

Mr. W. H. BARNES: You do not like it. ::\fr. BO\V}IAN: Trot them out. It is worthy

of you. l\ir. W. H. BAR~ES : I will give you the

names-lt~bert Owen, Car! Pearson, Gntnt Al­len ; and if hon. members want to hear what they have to say I can tell them.

:\Ir. BowMAN: If you could write like them, you would not have anything to be ashamed of.

Mr. \V. H. BAR:;'\;ES: Here is an hon. mem­ber who says with the one breath that they did not do it, and then he savs with the next that they did, and that they did nothing to be ashamed of.

Mr. BOW}IAX: Ho bert 0 wen was one of the most humane men that ever lh·ed.

Mr. \V, H. BARXES : However, I will leave that particular subject. I think I have given a pretty clear answer.

Mr. BmniAN: No, you ha ye not. Mr. W. H. BARNES : The leader of the

Government last night and the leader of the Labour party this afternoon went to considerable trouble to h;bour the subject. The whole trend <lf the argument of the Premier last night was based on the assmnptirm that he had not re­"igned. The whole of his argument went in the direction of trying to prove something that would have been all right if he had not volun­tarily resigned. The leader of the Labour party referred to the thin~s that led up to the resigna­tion of the Kidston Government. It will be my duty also-seeing that the hon. member has taken those lines-tu follow somewhat on the sam" lines, and to show that the position of the Kidston Ministry before they resigned was an e'Cceedingly bad one. It was made bad by the action of the gentlemen of the Labour party. They told the Premier that they were going to give him a certain amount of support, and he told them it wa• "a pretence of support."

Mr. Bow~tAN: And which they did. Mr. W. H. BARNES : I will just read what

the Premier said on 2fith July, 1907-page 35 of Hansard-·at the beginning of last session-

rPhe l?REYITER «aid: .Mr. Speaker,~ I beg to move that the consideration of this Order of tbe Day be post-

[ Mr. W. H. Barnes.

poned until Tuesday next, and the reas;on I do so is this: The broad rc~mlt of the general eleetion h; that three parties have l)ePn retnrned in nearly equal num­bers. X one of these tll1·ee parties are under any obliga­tion of allegiance to any of the othert', and none of them can command a majority of this Honse. 1 thought -as my colleagues thought-that it. was highly prob­able that at least one of those parties would make a pretence of supporting the Go\ ernment. I frankl~" con­fess that I dld not think it -would be anY more than a pretence, but I thought there would ha,;e been a pre­tence

Mr. BOW71LU;: 1\1hy d1d you want it if it was a pre­tence?

rrhe PUE::\-IIER : I am telling the House and the country jnst what I thought would tR.ke place, and why I am here to-day-bccam~e J thought that that pretence would be made, and if it was made it would be mani­festly my duty to remain here. Now, that pretence has not been made. rrhe Government tind two parties sitting in opposition-two partir'i who take up exactly the same attitude towards the Government.

:Ylr. ::\IA.nHIAN: That is not the position.

The PRE:UIER: I hope hon. members will under­stand that I am justified in putting my own interpreta~ tion upon the action of hon. members opposite. (Hear, hear:) The party that ~ttys they are going to support the Government. nnd move a vote of no confidence when the Premier m oyes the Chairman t'or the Rcssion either does not know an_ything about parliamt'ntary pro~ cednre or it is only p1aymg fast and loose. (IIcar, hear~)

And we have had a repetition of that only during the last few days. They were tried the other day with regard to parliamentary procedure, and there was an acrobatic feat performed by the l'renlier and three of his colleagues. Because, apparently, they conld not whip the Labour party into line to vote for their nominee for the Chairmanship of C0rnmittees, they walked cut of the Chamber. The hon. gentleman went on-

They allowed the Appropriation Rill to go through without protest, which would have l)Cen a quite legitimate OplJOitunity for showing that they dit-:­appro-ve of the Government. To ten me that tlley willl!ivp mP. a general support when I bring in measures which please them, and that they will fien·ely eriticise eYerything that doe:-:; not please them, is sitting in opposition.

0PPOSTTIOX )!K~I B~:RS: Hear, hear~

rrhe PRE~UEn: Xo Opposition ever said anythmg else. Xo Opposition ever does anything else. Now, that is not the IlOSition I mean to be iu. · ·

And listen to theRe historic words-words which, no matter how sincere they might have been when uttered, at any rate have a peculiar significance after the way in which the Premier beat a h>Lsty retreat the other day-

If I ma.Y be permitted to use a phrase which has been used elsewhere, this ship will not be steered from the i'tcerage while I nm on the bridge. (Laughter.)

I may say that he ha;; got down into the hold now.

GOYERN1rKXT }h:::\lBERS: Hear, hear! 'rhe PRE:\1mR: And it will not be steered from the

snloon either, while I nm ou the bridge. . . . I am not going into the (1nestion as to whethPr the eountry did wisely in returning three partie8 to this House in about t.qnal numbers. I am not going into the que"~ tion of ·who is to blame f'or that-it has nothing to do with the present situation. I think we are all, as members of this House, bound to aceept the verdict of the country as the right thing, whdher it happen~ to suit us or not. At the san:lC time, as practical men who have been sent here by the country, it is uur bnsi· ncsR to sec that the King's go;:ernmcnt is carried on. And it is sonu:tbing more-it is our business to see that the men who are responsir,Je should also have the power. (Hear, henr !) ?\o man has a right to sit here unle!:1s he has the power, ani! direct the policy of the country.

GOVERNMENT }b:?tnnms: Hear, hear !

The PREMIER: There are a good many things I could s~LY about this matter--

The SECRETARY ]'OR PUDLIC LANDS: What is the use of reading all this?

Address in Reply. [12 :MARCH.] Address in Reply. 97

Mr. \V. H. BARNES: 'l'he Secretary £or Lands is not in charge of the House, and he is not going to dict>tte to me.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I am only suggesting what i• the use of wasting time?

::\1r. \V. H. BARXES: Just fancy the Secre­tary for Lands suggesting to a man who does not speak very often that he is wasting time ! I w"'nt to reply to the leader of the Labour party to show what has led up to the present situation, and what led up to the resignation o£ the Kids ton Government last year.

Mr. Bow:>IAN : Did not the Labour party sup­port the Kidston Government last year?

::\Ir. \V. H. BARNES: The Labour party squeezed them.

:\fr. Bow;,uN : Did they support them ?

:\fr. \V. H. BARNES: They supported them up to a certain point, and they squeezed them, as they are g·oing to squeeze them still further. They have got them completely under their heel now. \Vhat did the Premier say in 1907?

I c~nnot have thL" kincl of thing, and I will adjourn the uause.

During the interval he cons"lted with several people, and he "'rranged with the leader of the Labour party, I presume, for something akin to a pretence at ~mpport, and the strong 1nan came back to the House and went on with business. I am bound to sty that if it had not been for the Premier's own act there would ha,·e been no dissolution of Parliament. The present Premier was entirely responsible for the dissolu­tion of Parliament.

The SECRETA!<¥ FOR PcBLIC LANDS : Can you reconcile it with your conscience to nutke such ~ statement?

Mr. \V. H. BARXES: Yes, I can reconcile it, because it is an absolute fact. What did he do ? He allowed several months to go by, and then one morning we found in the public Press that letters had been written to the Labour party, and we found also the reply of the Labour party, which wa" that they would not alter the position they took up at the commencement of the session. The Premier, in a tiff, went and resigned. The idea was to bring the Labour party into line ag-ain, "nd he rlid not think he w0uld be regarded as serious. He went away in a tiff and resigned, and was exceedingly sorry for it, and then, like many a man who gets into a fix for which he is entirely responsible, he starts to blame the other fellow. \Vhat w>1s the position with regard to the Legislative Council? He stated that he wanted to nominate a sufficient number of member,; to that Chamber to get his measures through. \Vhat measures were really blocked in the other House ?

::\Ir. MANN : The \V ages Boards Bill.

J\Ir. \V. H. BARNES: There was an attempt to amend the \V age• Board; Bill, and I would ask is it the duty of the revising Chamber to take, holus·bolw,, everything that we give them? If it is, then I think, with the Labour party, that it would be better to wipe it out altogether. But I say that is not their duty. It is a good thing for the country that we have a revising Chamber, and I hope the day is far distant when it will b' wiped out of existence. There may he a method of dealing with some of the difficulties under which we labour, or are said to labour, but wiping out the Council is not the way to deal with them. I was about to show that the other Chamber did not block legislation. How many Bills went up to the Legislative Council? Some absurd statements are made as to the Bills rejected by the Council. Thirteen measures were sent up. Six of those passed the

1908-H

Council, and became law. One, I think, was re­jected because the Legislative Assembly refused to accept the amendment of the Council, and the \V ages Boards Bill was under consideration when the trouble arose. The other five were delayed by the Government's representative, l'rfr. Barlow. Now, just let me show you how very hollow the whole thing was. \Ve had sitting on the Go­vernment side of the Honse gentlemen who were pulling the strings, and trying to block the \V ages Boards Bill so far as it applied to the farmers.

}'vir. LESINA: X ot Labourites. Mr. W. H. BARNES: X o, I "'dmit that; but

there were gentlemen on the other side who were trying to block the \V ages Boards Bill, and urging the other Chamber to block it also.

Mr. LESINA : Kidstonites. :\fr. \V. H. BARNES: They were Kid­

stonites. Mr. J ACKSON: Have you any proof of that? Mr. \V. H. BAR:'\ES: There is abundantJ

proo£ that such was the case, because some gentlemen in the other House were approached on the subject. \Ve then come to the question of the amendment of the electoral law. \Vas there any need for quarrelling with the Council straight away over that • In the ordinary course of things we should ha,·e had a couple of seesions in which to deal with it, and yet that measure was simply made a bogey with which to try and whip the Labour party into line.

:\Ir. BOWi\fAN: You ga·;e one of the strongest evidences of the need for abolishing it.

1\fr. \V. H. BAR::'\ES : I am prepared to admit that there are abuses under the postal vote system.

J\Ir .• TExKINSO~ : It only requires amending.

Mr. \V. H. BAR::\'ES: But the Government, pos<essing as it dues some of the leading legal lulninaries~-

:\lr .• TENKIXSON : What ! Mr. \V. H. BARXES : \V ell, I may say so­

called legal lights. The SECRETARY }'OR PeBLIC LAKJJS : \Vhy

this withering sarcasm? :'\Ir. \V. H. BARNES: I hope the hon.

gentleman will not deny that he is a legal luminary, but it is very strange that with a front bench containing a gifted Attorney­Gener;tl, and one of the most polished men as Secretary for Lands, who is also a legal gentle­man~-

Mr. PAGET: \Vhatabout the Home Secretary?

2\fr. \V. H. BARNES : I had forgotten him, as he is not present, and I apologise to him, but it is an extraordinary thing that, with all this legal talent, the Government could not see their way clear to amend the Act, and should say that the only way in which to deal with it was to wipe out the postal vote provisions altogether, and disfranchise a number of women in the country. It does not require any argument from me to prove that there are a number of women who cannot possibly vote at the polling-booths; there are a great number of them.

l\Ir. CoWAP: A very small number. Mr. \V. H. BARNES : It seems to me that

some hon. members are afraid that women will not vote the right way. In my opinion they did vote the right way as far as the interests of the State wPre concerned, although in smne cases they were laid astray. But if abuses have crept into the postal vote system, it was thE' clear duty of the Government to have remedied those abuses. It was possible to do that. \Vhat did they do? They simply tried to wipe it out, and

Mr. W. H. Barnes.]

98 Address in Reply. [ASSEMBLY.J Address m Reply.

because they could not quite get their own way J\Tr. Kidston went in a "pet," and resigned, and was exceedingly sorry for it afterwards. I want now to refer to a statement which was marle just before the close of !aRt S<"'sion by the present Mini"ter for Lands. One might have expected a gentleman with the training of the Premier to make false statements, hut I rannot understand how a gentleman with the training of the Jl.1inister for Lands could drag his own name so low as to make a statement of this kind-I am quoting from Hansard of last session, page 17G3-

This is the first time, I believe, in the parliamentary history of any British community that yon find the man at the head of affairs sitting on the rrreasur:r benches with the air of a bahy in arms, nursed into office by the representative of the ::nonarch.

The SECRETARY J<'OR PcnLrc LA:•rns: That is all right.

Mr. W. H. BARNES: There is a gentleman whose position and training should have taught him better, yet in the beat of excitement be loses the balanee which sometimes be possesses, and bad the effrontery to hurl, through the members sitting on the front benches, an un­founded accusation aga.inst a man who was not able to answer for himself. I hope the ban. gentleman feels proud of what he said on that occasion.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA~DS : I wish you would analyse my statement.

Mr. \V. H. BA!:C'\ES: I have no desire to analyse it, and I am sure the ban. gentleman feels exceedingly sorry for having made such a statPment. If one could only get right down deep enough into his be,wt we should see that be was ashamed of it. The learler of the Labour party this afternoon, in dealing with the con­stitutional question, quoted quite a number of autboritie' in support of his own point of view. But he looked at his authorities with only one eye. There are other auth•)rities, and other authorities of the greatest importance. Here, for in-Btance, h.; a quotation from "Todd," page G57-

In 1861 Bannermau, I .. ieutenant-Governor of New­foundland, being dissatisfied "\Yith rea~ons given by his Premier regardiug a Bill affectiu~ Lhc salaries of em­ployees in civil "lervice, dismissed the ~\linistry and called on the leader of Opposition, who, being in a minority, asked for a dissolution, which was granted.

Last session, the bon. member for Burrum, Mr. Rankin, was continually remarking across the Chamber that there would be no disbolution because Supply would not be granted. And we know that apparently some effort was made by the leader of the then Opposition to make bon. members on that side believe that there would be no dissolution without Supply.

Mr. MANN: \Ve were told quite different,

Mr. W. H. BARNJ<~S: It is evident that some members on that side knew that dissolution could be granted without Supply, but that was the whip held over them by the pre,ent Premier, who holds that we on this side did an improper thing. The improper thing was done on the other side-by the present Kidston Government­because be made hi" supporters believe tba t there would be no dissolution. That was their sheet anchor right up to the eleventh hour; and when JI.Ir. Kidston found be was in a bole be tried to blame other people. "\gain referring to the leader of the Labour party, I quote from "Todd," page 818-

The authority of the Crown in the hands of the King's representative must be respected; no one sub­ordinate to the Governor should attribute to him per­sonally any act of misgovernment, his Ministers being always answerable for his acts to the local Parliament and to the constituent body.

[Llfr. W. H. Barnes.

And from page 819-If he should see flt to dissolve Parliament with a;

view to determine legislative dispute~. it must be clearly seen that he inter·venes for the purpose of mediation and as an appeal to the arbitration of the people, not as helping one House against the other.

It strikes one ''" strange that the Labour party, who are continually saying, "Let us trust the people," and "Let us appeal to the· people," should on that occasion have tried to prevent an appeal to the people.

Mr. LESINA: I did not.

Mr. \V. H. BARNJ<~S : I am sure the bon. member for Clermont did not, because I believe· he wae in Sydney at the time, and it would be unfair to him not to give that explanation.

Mr. LESINA : It would be a good thing to remind the bon. member for Cairns about that.

Mr. W. H. BARXES: I will leave the hon. member for Clermont to deal with

[~.30 p,m.] that. I was referring to the action of the Minister for Lands, hut I am

just going to leave him for a moment to reflect over an act w hi eh, I again repeat, he mu8-t bitterly regret, and an :\Ct which! do not think his colleague, the Attorney-General, approved of.

The ATTORNEY-GE!'!ERAL: \Vbat act are you alluding to?

Mr. W. H. BARNES: The action of the :!\Iinister for Lands in referring to the represen­tative of the King in the way be did in this Chamber. I am sure the Attorney-General did not approve uf that. \Vbat do we find that the Premier himself did? He disgraced himself, and disgraced this Assembly, when be deliberateh stated on this side of the House-referring to the representative of the King in this country-that tbe Czar bad turned down his thumb and the Duma was dissolved.

Mr. MA X WELL: Hear, bear! Perfectly right !'

Mr. \V. H. BARNES: I am exceedingly sorry to bear the bon. gentleman say "Hear, bear!"

The SECRETARY l<'OR PunLlO LANDS : If these references are so shocking, why do you keep re­producing them?

Mr. W. H. BARNES: I am afraid that a great many people in tbP country do not know that they have been made. (Laughter.) I want to put before the public the true views which are held by bon. gentlemen holding portfolios on the other side with regard to the representative of the Government in this community.

The SECRETAHY ~'OR RAILWAYS : Ob ! it's. awful.

J\Ir. W. H. BARNES : That is what I want to do. I repeat that the bon. gentleman is exceedingly ~orry.

Mr. MAN~: We distributed 2,000 copies of that speech.

Mr. W. H. BARNES : That shows a certain amount of wisdom. I did not think the bon. member had any wisdom, but if be distributed 2,000 copies of a speech like that be has done good work.

Mr. LgsJNA: That is the reason for the out­burat a!(ainst the leader of the Opposition.

Mr. \V. H. BARNES : Let me say that there has been an effort under cover-in a veiled way -to get beyond the previous Ministers who sat in this House. 1£ the previous Ministers did wrong­they are here to speak for themselves, but it is not a creditable thing to try and get at some­body else. • Mr. CowAP: Some of them are there.

Mr. \V. H. BARNES : Some of them are here, and they are quite prepared to take up the cudgels on their own behalf. A great deal has

Address 1n Reply. [12 MARCH.] Address in Reply. 99

been said in regard to cert:1in concessions which have been made. I do not know whether you noticed that when the Treasurer was answering a question how he tried to fence it. \V e are told that certain improper things bave been done. I challenge the hon. gentleman who has been a party to this particular reply to His Excellency the Governor, which the leader of the Opposi· tion is trying to get wiped out. The hon. gentleman and hi' collt"agnes have been parties to doing precisely what we did when we were sitting on the Treasury benches.

Mr. MANX interjected. Mr. W. H. BARNES: The bon. member

makes a remark about Mount Molloy. All I can say is that when certain papers are laid on the table of the Huuse they wiil see if there is anything- "cronk" about Mount lYiolloy.

The SECHETARY FOH RAILWAYS: \Vbat about the Maryvale !~state.

Mr. \V. H. BARXES : I wiil have something to say about the Maryvale Estate, if the Speaker does not pull me up, which you will not like--

The SPEAKER: Order ! The hon. member is not in order in discussing that question now. He can discuss the general qnestwn after the amendment is disposed of.

Mr. \V. H. BARNES : That is what I was afraid of. I want to go back MO that I shall not lose my opportunity of opeaking later on. It is difficult to refrain from being drawn uff the track; but I mu.st not be drawn off, or else I will have you pulling me up, Sir. I was abonb to say that the gentlemen sitting on the Govern­ment bench have themselves repeatedly broken the Constitution, because I hold if they only paid sixpence, and that six[lence was paid im· properly-~s they say we paid it-they are equally guilty. \Vhy, the Treasurer himself admitted the other day that the Government of which he formed a part did certain things in the way of paying money out--

Mr. MAN:'><: They had a majority behind them.

Mr. W. H. BARNES : Surely, if there is a principle, it makes no difference whether there is a majority behind them. (Laughter.) I want to come back to that question as it bears on the finances. First of all, let me repeat that the hon. gentleman himself and his colleagues did precisely what we did, in paying jurors, men in the railway yards, men here, there, and every· where, and I say they broke the law if we did. There ha;, been a good deal of talk in connection with those payments. \Vhat would have been the position in this community if those payments had not been made? J~ven the six or seven days that men were waiting for their money had the effect of forcing some of them into the hands of the money-lenders, whu charged extremely high rates.

Mr. CoWAP: How did they manage when they got monthly pays-they must have been badly off?

Mr. W. H. BARNES: If there had been an attempt to stop payment of Government money for three or four months, the position in the community would have been a disastrous one.

l'!Ir. BOWliiAX: And your party would have been rES[Jonsible.

Mr. W. H. BARNES: The party which is res[lonsible for the position we are in to-day is that of the hon. gentleman sitting on the opposite side, supported by the Labour party, presumably the friends of the people. They said, "We will not give you Supply"-a most unheard-of and unusual thing in a British community. Before sitting down-for I do not wish to lose an op[Jor­tunity of speaking later on-I want to say a word

in connection with the amendment. Is this House going to demean itself bv carrying a motion which will be a blot upon Queensland?

THE SECHETAHY FOH RAILWAYS: \Ye will carry it.

Mr. vV. H. B ARN}~S : I am sorry to hear the J'lfinister say they will carry it. Is it a fair thing for some people to do what ~hey propose to do? Not that I think the representative of the Crown would care a snap of the finger for what­ever is done.

The SPEAKER: Order ! The bon. member is not in order in referring to His Excellency the Go•ernor in those terms.

Mr. W. H. BARNES : I wish to bow to your ruling, Sir. I should he sorry to transgress in any direction. In closing, I hope that hon. members, before they give a vote of this kind, will think of what they are going to do, and what is going to be the effect of it at a later day. I hold that there are gentlemen sitting on that side of the House who, by tradition, by experi­ence, and as a result of their training, will only feel ashamed if they vote fur this in its entirety. The leader of the U[lposition has made it plain that there i' a way out. I hope that when the division bell rings-if the Government do not see fit to withdraw it by that time-it will be found at least that there are some men who have greater love for their country than for their party, for behind it all there does come in tu this question the love of country. I sincerely hope that members on the Labour side und gentle­men sitting on the Government side will think of whut it may mean to them in the days to come. One would not like to feel in connection with their political life-and I take it that this is outside party politics-that they did anything that would tend to besmirch the fair name ,,f their country. If there is one thing I would like to say before I sit down-and I say it in all geriousness-it is that whatever members are going to do in connection with this particular matter, and whatever they feel after they ha ye gone into the constitutional question, <tnd listened to the pros and cons of the case, they will feel that if there is any blame in the matter at all-and I do not admit that there has been any blame-it should be hurled against the late advisers of His Excellency.

Mr. CoWAP : There are hardly any of you left. Mr. \V. H. BARNES: \Vhyshonld anyone who

is not in the position to defend himself be brought into it, as this resolution brings him into it, this afternoon? I feel sure that in this House, under­lying, at any rate, the strong feeling of party poiitics, there is a fe~Jing that at least we should not do anything that will disgrace this ,:;reat State of Queensland. (Hear, hear!) I appeal to members to-night, before I sit down, to think of it in all its phases and not do anything to besmirch the fair name of this country by doing an" act they will for ever regret in their calmer and cooler 1nomen ts.

The SECRETARY ]'OR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. J. T. Bell, IJrtlby), who was received with Government ''Hear, hears l" said : I have been witnessing during the last hour, which I think is the time that the hon. member for Bulimba occupied in addressing this House. an extra­ordinary inversion in parliamentary debate. Here is an hon. member, during the last fifty or sixty u,inntes, standing up on that front Oppo­sition bench with the air of an admonisher or of an irate parent--

Mr. W. H. BAHNES: You are doing the same thing.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Just as if he were addressing some seriously naughty boys and girls.

Hon. J. T. Bell.]

100 .Add1'ess in Reply. [ASSEMBLY.] Address in Reply.

Mr. C.UIPBELL : He followed your example.

The SECRE'rARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: He spoke just as if we were a party of politi­cians who were proved to be in the wrong and that we ought to express our repentence to them. The hon. member for Bulimba has been posing as an exernplar, as a vnre patriot, and as a man who ha't been indemnified on appealing to the country on the attitude that he and his col­leagues took up some months ago. This attitude which the hon. gentleman has taken up is an inversion of the attitude which he ought to have adopted. The hon. gentleman, if he were to adovt the g":rb. which would be proper for the pusitJOn he IS m, ought to be brought here in sackcloth and ashes. (Laughter.) He ought to come with his head bowed down and make a humble apology, together with his late colleague on his left, and his late colleague on his right, and they should say that they regretted that under the impulse of selfish political ambition--

l-Ion. R. PHILP : Oh, oh ! The SECRETARY:b'OR PuBLIC LANDS:

Th~y f~ll into the position of giving such cxtra­orJmanly wrong adnce to the represAntative of the ::\Ionarch in this State--

Hon. R. PHILP: ·what about the four-in-hand that you were allowed to use for the elections? His you who ought to apologise.

The SECRETARYFORPUBLICLANDS: \Vho is making this speech? (Laughter.) They should admit that by their advice th~y led that representative into a serious position. That ought to be the attitude of the hon. member. If there is anything in a democratic country in appealing to the people, that ought to be the attitude of the hon. member. \Ve appealed to Ccesar and Cresar has given his ans\\;er. The hon. gentleman was sitting on this Government bench before the election, and he is over there now. \Vhy? Because the people will have nothing to do with him, Parliament would have nothing to do with him. He was in offce for three months, although a large majority of a freRhly-elected House said they would have nothing to do with him or his colleagues. Then there was another appc·al to the people-an abso­lutely unnecessary appeal, I say-and the hon. member finally got his answer, and he is sitting there where he is now.

Hon. R. PHILP: And in good company. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS:

Then the ban. member comes here and attempts to admonish and lecture us, and tells us that we must behave better in the future. (Hear, hear! and laughter.) There must be something in the atmosphere of the new Executive Building-in the Lands Department-to make the hon. gentle­man develop that disposition to lecture people.

Hon. R. PHILP : He did a lot of your work.

The SECRETARY l!'OR PUBLIC LANDS: Let me ~ay that I have been in the Lands Department, and I have been in that atmosphere for some ye:us, hut I never developed the disposi­tion to lecture to the degree that the hon. mem­ber has developed it in the short period of three months. The hon. mentber quoted, with a most shocked air, some observations which I made during the debate which took ]Jlace at the con­clusion of the last Parliament.

Hon. R. PHILP : Did you make them?

The S:ECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAKDS: I think I n;ade_ some reference to His Majesty's representative m the State. I may be deficient in my appreciation of the niceties, but upon my word, when I looked again for the first time at my speech since I uttered the. words which the hen. gentleman referred to, I thought it was not very bad metaphor. (Hear, hear !) I

rH on . .l. T .. Bell.

thought that reference was one which would have particularly appealed to the hon. gentleman becanse of his references during the election campaign when he referred to the iniquities of socialism in one particular matter which I thought was as far apart from the economic as­pect of socialism :ts the North Pole is from the South Pole. \Vhen I think of the hon. gentle­man's anxiet-ies regarding the 1narri1),ge tie and matters of domestic concern, I really did think that in that aspect, at all events, my meta­phor might have appealed to the hon. gentle­man where I talked about the b-.by in arms. (Hear, hear! and laughter.) I do not with­draw one word that I then uttered. Let me say that if I thought for one second that my words were unbeco1ning or wrong, whatever my defects are, I, at all events, have this virtue : that I am not afraid to get up and apologise. (Hear, hear!) Let us remember that we qnote text-books here in regard to the way the :Monarch and the Monarch's representatives mm.t be alludd to. Text-books are all right; they are broadened down from precedent to pre­cedent. But we must look at tbings as they are. \Vhere is the man who knows anything of the world who imagines that in Great Britain to-day even a Monarch like Eclward YII.­than whmu I :-;nppose a 1nore popular Sovereign never sat upon a throne since Kings have existed-- does anybody imaginA thaL if in Great Britain you have a political cr1srs and the 1fonarch was pron1inent in assnciation with that crisis, that you would find the Press of Great Britain, or that yon would find the Liberal or Radical party in Parliament, or that you would find the masses of the voters treating the Monarch as if he were some great panjandrum whose name should only be uttered with lntecl ?reath. To-clay in modern England, 'llthough it IR a ConservativP country under a monarchy, there is no country in the world where there is a greater liberty of epeech, and the people of G-reat Britain would not he::;itate one u1n1nent longer than the people of Queensland would hesi­tate, or their representativres in Parliament would hesitate, to say whatever they thought ought to be said in regard to any one of the three great Stat8s of the realm in carrying on the government of the country. Out here you are attempting to live in an alt<'gether visionary and unrp;;] condition of things when you pretend to tre:1t the representa­tive of the Monarch, in a time of political crisis, at all events, as " shadowy abstraction. No man who is fit to discharge the duties of Go­vernor in the;.:,e ... 4..ustralian States, or even the dutiPs of King of the British Empire in these modern days, can expect to be treated in that wav. He will have to take his share of the rough and tumble of palitical criticism; that is inevitable. GoVERNME~T ::\IE;\!IJERS : Hear, hear !

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: And the men who are sent out here as Governors know that perfectly well ; they are sensible men, and they thoroughly understand the situa­tion. During the general election which re­cently took place, •o far as I had an opportunity of perusing the reports of speecbe,;, I saw no references to His Excellencv of a personally depreciatory kind. 'l'he references I made my­self were not well reported-perhaps they were not worth being well reported-but in those references to His Excellency I studiously mea­sured my wordE. 'l'hose references recAived either no reproduction or only a very incumplete reproduction in the metropolitan Precs. There is no man who enjoys the distinction of knowing His Excellency who c:tn say anything depre­ciatory of him. I say that without in the slightest degree wishing to make a stereotyped

Address in Reply. [12 MARCH.] AddTess in RepT_y. 101

or fulsome compliment. I say it because I know it to be true. His Excellency is " man who, apart altogether from his soda! posi­tion, has shown in some of the nwst democratic assemblages you will find on earth-that i", the public schools and Universities of Great Britain­the stuff that is in him. He has shown himself as an athlete, having gained one of the greatest distinctions :m athlete c;m gain. He has shown his intellectual strength in having won one of the blue ribbons for :scholarshin in a Fellowship of All Souls. And I say that rioman who knows him will e\·pr for a moment think that in any attitude he took up in the late crisis he was animated by anything that was unworthy or partial. It did not matter a brass farthing to him, I am convinced, which man he had as his chief adviser. Probably he found them both equally interesting, or equnJly uninterest­ing. I do not think it mattered twopence to him whether the man he had to consult with was my hon. friend on my right or the l8ader of the Opposition. But I do say that His Excellency did not show the discernment which I re8pect­fully 'ay he ought to have shown when he hearkened to the ad vice tendered to him by the hon. gentleman opposite. I will lay down this doctrine: That a Governor cannot expect to rid himself of criticism altogether in regard to the wav in which he exercises his discretion in deciding what advice he will accept, and what advice he will reject, and where I think a mis· take was committed was when His Excellency failed to discprn that the advice offered him by the late Ad111inistration came, not from patriots, but from a band of interested poli­ticians who were tr_ving to pull the political and 1Jarlian1entary strings in such a way a.s would enable them to remain for a little longer time on the Treasury bench. That is where, I believe, a mistake,_, as made, and if a little more discernment and penetration bad been shown in analysing the source of the "'dvic<~, which was taken, the great mistake of dissoldng this House would not have occurred.

GovERcDIEI':T AI':D LAnOt:R l\IE3rBERS : Hear, hear!

The SEOllETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Kothing is to be gained by t"king up the time of the How:;e, as the Opposition are doing, in assum­ing that His Excellency was correct, th"t it is unbecoming of us to criticise His :Excellency, and that all we base to do is to keep quiet, or, at least, to throw a little condemnation upon the front bench opposite. Those who occupy that bench say that they are mainly to be condemned, but I cannot, in all honesty, say that the condemnation solely rests there. \Vith the most profound respect for His Excellency, I say that the advice they gave shonld not have been tal<en, and that the late Hou,e, which was elected in May last year, began to sit in July, and sat for the last tilne in Xovember, was dissolved unnect,.Harily, as the House by a distinct majority wished to keep a cert'1in body of rnen in aa adn1inistrJ tors to carry on the government of the country. The appeal to the mass of the voters which ha' just taken place showed that the view of the House before the dic,8olution was identical with the views that the electors held. Speaking to the arnendment, as one must do now, I say we should not be performing our duty as members of a free deuwcratic corrnHunity, and as mmnbers of an institution which was dis8olved within five or six months of its electior< on a definite ques­tion-we should not be performing our duty as members of that community and of that institu­tion if we did not place sorne record of our views in the Address we are to present to His Excel­lency, the some Excellency who went through the previous experience and who dissolved the House.

I am sorry the hon. member for FaRBifern is not in his place, because I want to make some brief reference to him. He adopted a tone last night-a bickering tone-in the way in which he addressed members of this House. I really do not want to go into details in my reference to what he said, but I make this broad otate-

ment in regard to him- -that I do [7 p.m.] believe, in re;zard to the incidents

amongst camlidates at the time of the ]a,t election, there was nothing that so hurt members on both sides of the Chamber a8 the exhibition which the hon. member for :Fassifern made, as soon as the result of the general election was known, at a meeting which took place at Toowong--

GoYERI':1IEI>T AND LAnocn 1\IE:IIBERS : Hear, hear!

'rhe SECRE'r AR Y FOR P UBLIO LANDS : \Vhen the hon. member stood up and renounced his leader, nnder whom he fought in the last contest, in whom, during the preceding session and the rece'''' before that, he had professed confi· dence, nnder whose banner he was fighting. \Vhen he thought that that leader was going down ; when he found that hn was not to be at the bead of a triumphant p:1rty; when he imagined that public opinion was going to rele­gate his leader to-·cornparatively speaking­ob,,curity, and to put up another leader in his place, the hon. member for J<'assifern, instead of exhibiting that fidelity which a true party fol­lower ought to show to his leader in times of stress, got up and renounced him, and eaid they wanted another leader.

Hon. R. PHILP: You left me once, you know.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I do not know that there wa,s any incident of a purely personal nature during the whole of the last election that so hurt the f8',lings of the members of all parties in this chamber.

GOYEl\NoiEI':T AND LABOUR JYIE3lllERS : Hear, hear!

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: And let me Hay that I believe it was a chivalrous and loyal thing when the party opposite re­elected and placed in his old position their old leader. It was a chivalrous action, and one which ought to make the hnn. member for Fassi­fern hide his head with ohame. Bnti rnustcome back to the hon. member for Bulirnba. The hon. member associated himself with the remarkable statement that the person who was responsible f<>r the dissolution wa8 not the leader of the GnYernment who advisPd His Excellency to dis­solve the Huuse. but my bun. friend upon my right, who is now leading the present Government.

1\Ir. IV. H. BARSES: That is perfectly correct.

The SECRETARY J<'ORPUBLIOLANDS: The hnn. member said that on this bench at the present moment is to be found the real author of the dissolution. I am sure that when the hon. member sttid that he believed it; but what extraordinary conception could have put the hon. member into the frame of mind which persuadec> him that such is the case? \Yhat is the history, in the ''ery briefest outline, e,nd only in regard tn some phase~, 0f this matter·? The hon. member on my rJght went off to (}ovr-rntnP-nt House and tendend certain atlvice to Hi8 Ex•,ellency. That ad,·ice was not accepted. \V hat is the proper course for :\~ini~· ters to take when theY tender adviCe whwh Is not accepted ? Should they smile, and Ray'' Oh, very well, if you don't like th"'t advice, we are prepared to tender othP" ad vice whiCh, pre,mn­ably, you v:illlike"? The British OonRtitution is not rnn on those linA~. It aRRUlnes th':t.t, when the advi..;ers of the King or hi1'3 representati\·e tender advice and that advice is not accepted,

Hon. J. T. Bell. J

102 Address in Repl;y. [ASSEMBLY.] Address in Reply.

the >Ldvisers do not go back and reconsider their advice. They at ouce resign office. The head oft he Government then re,igned office as leader of the Governn1ent, in defPrence to a great con­stitutional principle. And yet the hon. mem­ber for Bulimba has so distorted a view of the political situation as it then was that he really believes that the then head of the Government resigned, as he says, in a tiff. The hon. member has apparently no more C(>nception of the consti· tutional aspect of the eituation than to be able to fall into no other frame of mind than to believe that, when the leader of thi'. party took such a step, he W<ts merely animated by personal chagrin. Is it possible that the hon. member can really I elieve that?

Mr. IV. H. BARNES: Subsequent events proved that.

The SECRETARY ]'OR PUBLIOLA::\'DS: The then leader of the Government resigned because really, as a self-respecting man, he had no other alternative.

GoVERNMENT AND LABOUR l\IEll!llERS : Hear, hear!

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: The Ministry would have been a slighted Minis­try. IVe should not have been fit to sit on these benches, if, after that advice had been given and rejected, we had put the rejection in our pockets, and come back here and attempted to initiate and carry legislation. The leader of the Govern· ment only d1d what he ought to have done. He resigned; and not as the result of any tiff at all. '~Nhen the hon. gentleman came back here ann resigned, His Excellency sent for the leader of the party opposite. That leader undertook to form a l\1inistry. That wag a commiosion, I respectfully say, that he never should have accepted. He knew perfectly well-or ought to have known perfectly well-that there was not the remotest chance in that freshly-elected House of his forming a Ministry that would be able to exist for five minutes.

GOVERN>IENT AND I~AnOUR l\IE~IBERS: Hear, hear l

:Mr. CA)JPTIELL: How did he know that? Look at the men on your side who were disaffected.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA~ DS: IVbo were disaffected? Where was the proof of the disaffection ? The idea of disaffection exiEted only in the interested imaginations and anticipations of hon. gentlemen opposite.

Mr. CAMPBELL: Not at all. The SECRETARY FOR 'PUBLIC LANDS:

They tbou!:(ht, "Let us have the ~hance of forming a Ministry, and perhaps we may be able to lure awav some followers fron1 the other side." And we know that during the interval that took place they plied every art that they were capable of in order to seduce some of our ·followers, but, to their credit be it said, they stood firm.

GoVERN"lEN1' AND LABOUR MEMBERS: Hear, hear l

The SECRETARY FOR PUBL[C LANDS: Some of them, unfortunately, succumbed later on, but durin!:( that crisis they stood firm, and the hon. gentlem~n opposite found himself on the Treasury bench without the slightest figment of a hope of being able to remain there. I should like the House and any portion of the country which may happen to read what I say to re­member that at the general election in May last the leader of the party opposite went tu the country as the confident leader of a party, and proclaimed wherever he went, supported by his followers and by the ne\wpapers of the co':ntry that were supporting him-proudly pro­claimed that when they came back, the Ministry of which I was a member, led by my hon. friend on my right, would be hurled from power.

[Hon. J. T. Bell.

We remember that perfectly well. The prog­nostications of the members supporting the party in opposition previous to the gener<>l elec­tion of :\[ay were not less confident and not less arrogant than they were previous to the general election which took place the other day; yet, after that general election, that party found themoelves no better off than they were after the previous general election. Their hopes in regard to the result were falsified. They found. a House elected which would have noth­ing whatever to do with them as a Govern­ment, and that they would have to remain in Opposition. \Vhat, I would o.sk, had taken place by November which could induce the party led by the leader of the Opposition to believe that he had more chance of getting support in this HoJuse than he had in the previous July 1 l\" othing had o~curred.

Hon. H. PHILP : IV e had the farming repre­sentatives voting on this side.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA::\'DS: The only reason for hope that those hon. gentle­men had was that they wer<> given an oppor­tunity to scheme and conspire am! try to lure a way some of our followers.

The PREMIER : To frighten them with a dis­solution.

The SRCRETARYFOR PUBLIC LANDS: Quite so; and when they found they could not do it, the leader of the Opposition played his last card. He found he had no hope whatever of being able to remain in office as a Minister in that newly-elected House; and he said to himself-" My ouly hope is in a dissolution ; I am in a minority now; an appeal to the conntry, even if it goes against me, cannot put me in a worse p 1sition "; and the hon. gentle­rnan went up to Government Honse, as .Premier, and asked for a dis.,olution. I cannot, of course, pretend to know what was in his mind; but I hazard the belief that when he made that expedition to Goverml!Pnt Home to ask for a di;solution, he had no tuore idea that he was going to get it than that he was going to the moon. There was no more surprised man than the then Premier when he found that be WHS actually going to get what he had asked His Excellency to give him.

Mr. CA~lPBELL: Y oa were the most surprised men in the country.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I frankly admit that we were very much sur­prised men, and that a great many people throughout the country were shocked when they found there was to be a dissolntion, but I firmly believe that the man who asked for it was as sorry as any man could be when he got it.

Mr. CAMPTIELL: Not a bit. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS:

He was a surprised man and a very sorry man. Hon. R. PHILP : I am not crying about it. The SECRETARY :FOR l'UBLIO LANDS:

I admit that. The hon. gentleman ttlways puts a good face on everything, but that dnes not justify his attitude as a party leader, as Premier of the country, and as constitut.ionoJ adviser of the .v1onarch'e representatiYe. It is very diffi­cult to understand, or, at all events, to approve, of the action which was taken in November last. I remember Employing the epithet "inscrut­able" to explain what took jJ!ace then, and I apply the same epithet now. I could never understand, with my limited opportunity of judging, what could have brought about a train of reasoning which could have led to the di.ssolution of a freshly elected Chamber su2h as we were then, when the House had got a JYiinis­try thoroughly cat,able of wisely administering the affairs of the State. I suppose the precise

Address in Reply. [12 }lARCH.] Address in Reply. 103

·sentence that would explain the whole course of events which led up to that crisis was an ex­pression used by the hon. gentleman who leads the Opposition at a semi-publi~ gathering at which political speeches were made. 'l'he hon. gentleman summed up the situation, I think in about the month of October, when redewing- the position of affair• in both Hnuses, by saying that the real Prime ::\Iinister of Queensland was a certain gentleman in another Chamber. The leader of the hon. gentleman's party in the nominee Cha1nber, where he has a n1ajority, was, he said, the real Premier of this State.

Hon. R. PHILP: It was only a joke. LABOcR ME1JBER8: Oh, oh ! and laughter. Hon. R. PHILP: I saw it first in a Labour

paper. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS:

Does the hon. gentleman say he never used the words?

Hon. R. PHILP: I first saw them in a Labour paper.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I was distinctly under the impression that they were used by the hon. gentleman.

The PRE:I!IER : This is the fir,t time it has be,en called in r1uestion.

Hon. R. PHILP : I said it, of course, but it was second-hand. I first saw it in a Labour paper.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAXDS: The hon. gentleman means to say the words were not original?

Hon. R. PHILP: Ye~. l\Ir. BO\V}!AN : All the true things appear

'there. The 8ECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAXDS:

I am sorry for the hon. gentleman's candour, because it prevents me from paying him the compliment of originating the expression.

Hon. R. PHILP: There is nothing original in it. " There is nothing new under the sun."

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAi'·WS: Perhaps not, but at all events the hon. gentle­man used the expression to describe the political situation of l.lueensland, and the hon. gentleman felt then, as I believe he feels now, that it very aptly described the political situ«tion. The party he led in the elected Chamber were in a minority, and were in a majority in the nominee Chamber, and they had the comfortable know­ledge that the majority in the nominee Chamber would save the situation for them.

Hon. R. PHILP : There are no parties in the Upper House.

GovERN}!EN~' AND LABOcR l\fE)!llERS: Oh, oh ! ::\fr. RYLAND: That is another joke. The SECRETARY FOR PUBL 10 LA:L\DS :

I am prepared to admit that there are certain atmospheric influences which bring about a change in the political views of hon. gentlemen when they get there.

Mr. \V. H. BARNES : Your party knows that to their cost.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLICLAXDS: Yes, perlmps they do. Good Radicals go into that Chamber, when very soon some extraordinary metamorphosis takes place. As I have said, the expression used by the hon. gentleman aptly described the situation, but no rrmn who has the slightest pretensions to leading a progressive party in a democrat.ic State could submit for one moment to such a statement being made, and no man who knows my hon. friend on my right could believe for one moment that he was going to submit to any such thing. That was why he went off to Government House and tendered the advice he did. It was essential that the

supremacy of the elected Chamber should be asserted, and my hon. friend took the earliest possible steps to assert it.

Hon. R. PHILP: ·what have you got in this Chamber now?

The SECRETARY :FOR PUBLIC LAXDS: \Ve have got an uncommonly good Government on the Trea"ury bench. (Hear, hear ! and laughter.) \Ye do not know what we are going to get in the other Chamber, and I only hope the hon. gentleman will put in a good word for us in that quarter. (Laughter.) I shall not detain the Hou;e any longer. I can only say that this Ministry has no reason to regret any­thing they have done" They ha,·e no reason, as fu as I know, to regret any reference they have made to His :Majesty's representative in this State. I speak for myself, at all events, when I sa~- that nobody can have a more profound respect for that gentleman than I have myself. I have neve.r willingly said a word against any of his actions. But he discharges public functions and performs public duties, and in a democratic 8tate no man can hope to be in a public position, and !Jerform public duties, and escape public critici,;m.

GaVERN>IENT ANJJ LABOcR ME,IDERS: Hear, hear!

Question-That the words proposed to be omitted (Hon. R. Philp's amendment) etand part of the question-put; and the House divided:-

Mr. Adamson , Airey

Barber Bar ton llell Blair Bowman Brennan Cottell

, Cowap ,. Coyne

Douglas HRmilton Jiawtborn

)! Hunter, D.

AYEs, 37.

Hunter. J. li. Huxham Jackson Kenna

~Ir. Kerr , Kidston

Land Lesina }!ann )'[aughan ~Iaxwell )fay ~lcLachlan

, l\Iitchell }Iulcahy )lull an PaYne Roberts Ryland Snmner "\Vinstanlev Woods ·

'Pellet·s: :\fr. Co\VRP aud :J.Ir. Mann.

XOES, 16. Mr. Appel }fr. Grayson

, Armstrong , Keogh ,, Barne~. G. P. , Paget , Barnes, IY. H. Petrie ,. Campbell ,. Phllp

Cribh Somerset Forrest Stoda.rt

,, Fox White Tellers: ~r. Armstrong and Mr. -w-hite.

PAIR.

Aye-llr. Herbertson. Xo-llr. }Ioore. Resolved in the affirmative. Original question stated. Mr. OAMPBELL (Moreton): I should like

to make a few remarks on the proposed Address in Reply to His Excellency's Speech,

[7.30 p.m.] and to put my Yiews with respect to it before the House. The ::\Iinister

for Lands thi.3 afternoon was at some pains to show that His Excellency was at fault.

The SPEAKER: Order! The ban. member cannot discuss the action of His Excellency. He will not be in order in discussing the amend­ment, as it has been disposed of. He must con­fine himself to the original motion.

Mr. CA::\IPBELL: I think, at any rate, that the Address shows that the Government are certainly at one in regard to the censure that he

Mr. Campbell.]

104 Address in Reply. [ASSEMBLY.l Address in Reply.

referred to. I take it that a calm review of the circumstances which led up to the dissolution puts the present Government in an unfortunate light, and justifies the action that the Governor took. It will be within the memory of the House that prior to the general election in :iUay the Labour party at the llockhampton conven­tion resolved that they would no longer be a party to the scheming of the Premier. They clearly saw that their identity as a party was practi­cally endangered by an alliance with him. And they rightly came to that conclu,;ion. Now, we have a spectacle in the House again, as we h'ld quite recently, of the Premier absolutely ;,, extru,Lis trying his level best to come to some sort 0£ patched-up under­standing with the Labour party, so that he may retain office. I have said before, and I say it now, that the exhibition was deplorable. He went to the country >es a man who would no longer have undiYided ~allegiance; he was a n1an who would not under any considmation have a condition of things similar to that in the Federal Parliament-not if he was Prime Minister of England. 'l'hat was a most worthy position for any man to take up. I admired him though I was in opposition to him. I said if a man could hold those views I had little to say against him, and iE he had stuck to them I would have ap­plauded him to-day. But I cannot find terms hard enough to express my disapprobation in regard to the position he has consistently taken up since.

Mr. LESINA: What has he clone? (Laughter.)

i\Ir. CAJ\IPBELL: He has made an exhibi­tion of himself and his party that is humiliating in the extreme. I am astonished to find men of the calibre of those who sit with him :1ctuallv becoming a party to the humiliation he has p~·t the House and the country to.

Mr. RYLAND: ·who are you referring to? (Laughter.)

:i\Ir. CA::\IPBELL : I am referring to the present leader of the Government, who is in a minority in this Houee. He went to the country and said that he would under no circumstances consent to be leader ag·ain unless he was backed by a sufficient majority. He afterwards said that he had accepted a pretence of support, and if he got a pretence of support it would be his duty to carry on. This strong man said that it was better for him to bend than to break.

Mr. LES!NA : 'Chat is what the boneless man in the circus said.

Mr. CAMPBELL : The circumstances leading up to the dissolution all arose from that stand­point. The action of the Labour party w:>s clear enough, and the Premier admitted in the letter that he wrote to the Labour party that the support he had got from them wns of a kind that was not sufficient for the purposes he had in view. He urged them to come as one man and join him, w that they could put up a fi"ht in the direction he had indicated. ·what wa~ the ans­wer to that letter? The world knows it. As the leader of the Opposition said last night it ought to go into Hansard, because it wa; an admirable production from the Labour stand­point. They answered it honestly. They stuck to the resolutions passed at the Hockhampton Convention, and they put" condition nt the end of it which no self-respectin;;- man would accept, yet afterwards the Government con­duct conferences with the body it emanated from. I say no self-1especting leader of a Go­vernment could submit to a studious insult of that kind. But he did it, without any compunc­tion whatever. I do not agree with my friend, the hon. member for Bulimba, when he said that the cause of his tendering his resigcation was a

[Mr. Campbell.

tiff. It was nothing of the kind. It was a put· up well-thought-out scheme; that is what I think about it.

l\Ir. LESIXA: A put up job! Mr. CAMPBELL: A put up job, to put it in

plain language. That letter, with something at the end of it, rankled in the Premier's mind, and he said to himself-" I will bring these men to heel ; I will bring them into the camp and make them support me," and that is where he beat the Labour part.y.

Mr. LRSINA : Oh, no ; he has not. :\Ir. CAMPBELL: Yes; this party, which is

so absolutely pure and undefiled, became parties to his scheme. \Vhy? Because they were afraid of their necks; they were afraid of losing their salaries one hon. member said last night.

Mr. LEsrx"\: \Vhich hon. member.

J\Ir. CAJ\IPBF~LL: The junior member for Gympie. (Laughter.) 'rhat was the position, and he had to get the Labour party to heel. He said, "The only way I can do this is to approach His Excellency with nn impossible request, on which I will have to tender my resignation, and then the trouble will commence for the Labour party. I know they do not want to go to the country; I will bring them into my camp, and they will then have to support me. The Premier and his Ministers ex}Jected that the Governor was going to be a party to this shock­ing game of bluff. Does any man in his senses think that the Governor ought to be a p>trty to that kind of thing? Certainly not. The thing was so palpabie, and the Governor must have seen that the whole thing ""'s a scheme of the Premier's to bring the Labour party into his hands. I um sorrY the L&hour party do not stand in the creditable !JOsitwn in which I have seen them. They practically got back into the camp and supported the Premier in the scheme he w,ts prepared to carry on. That is the position which led up to the dissolution. The Governor got the resignatio11, as he was bound to get it, from the Premier. The Premier then got the p:uty into subject.ion, and induced them to s-ign a '"round robin.'' They did. not want the trouble or danger of a general electwn.

Mr. All.DISON: X either did you. :i\Ir. CA1IPBELL: I had no anxiety about it

in n1y nlind. l\Ir. RYLA:Xll: You will not come back next

time. The timber-getters have not got a v0te up there.

l\1r. CA:I\IPBELL : At the last election I had a majority three times greater than before, and that is an answer to anvthing the hon. member mar say. I have no reason to be afraid; they en­dorsed my views respecting the crisis very fully. Now, I submit, without at,tempting to quote precedents after all the g-round that has been gone over hy preYiou..:; speakers, that the cnnnnon~sense po:-'ition 1~ so plain th~t the Go­vernor had no option left but to practically send the question to the country. The question on which thiR Address is framed was created bv the present Premier. I mbmit. that the Pr~m.ier is entirely to blame for the whole thing. He had promised at the general election in 1\Iay that he would tender to this House a Bill tu deal with disputes between the two Houses. He said the question would have to be settled by referendnm when there was a dispute between the two Chambers, and he was going to produce a Bill to make provision for it, but he ne\'er did so. '\Yhv did he not introducA this Bill? He saw, as lii-< letter to the Governor pointed out, and as his letter to the Labour party pointed out, that trouble was brewing. The Premier created the whole of that trouble. Then we had further

Address in Reply. [12 }IA.RcH. J Address in Reply. 105

trouble owing to the \V ages Boards Bill, when a certam number of members on the Government side of the House were in absolute opposition to the Government on the question of including farmers, and we had it proven beyond all ques­tion that the Premier gave a promise to the members of his party that he was going to expunge the obnoxious provisions of the ~Wages Boards Bill in so far as they rebted to farmers.

J\1r. BowlltAN: That is not tnoe.

i\Ir. CAMPBELL: \Ve harl it from one menr her of his party who afterwanls crossed the floor of the House a' a protest against the Premier's action. This member told the House that the Premier promised to expunge those provisions.

A GO\"ERX}fEXT ME}IJ3ER : \Vho was he?

Mr. OA::\IPBELL: It \\"as the late member for Albert, Mr. Plunkett.

Mr. ::\I.,xx: He got fired out himself.

1\Ir. CA11PB];LL : He fired himself out. He did not stand again. He came over to this side of the House as a protest against the breach of faith the Premier had been guilty of. The Labour party got to know about the Premier's pnnni~e to expunge this provision, and as they had seventeen votes again~t the seven votes of the farming members, the Premier rlid not want to run any risk in the matter. The Premier knew that he could keep most of the members on his side in hand, and he agreed to the sllgges· tion of the Labour party to allow the provisions to remain in the Bill. This is the man who is ttble to bend every time without bre>king. His head will be touching his heels directly if he bends much lower. Now, that was another exhibitir•n that probably the Governor knew about. Here was this peculiar composition of parties in the House. The Premier's own party were breaking with him on this question of wages boards, an'l all the time the Labour party were insisting that he must do something to show that he was in e:1rnest. 'l'hat is exactly the reason which actuated the Premier in writing that letter to the Labour party. All the after events are a corollary to that. I say that the Governor exhausted practically all the means at his command.

l'IIr. Cow.w: ::'{o.

1\Ir. CAMPBELL: I think he did. 1\Ir. CowAP : No ; he should have sent for the

leader of the Labour rnrty.

::\Ir. CAI\lPBELL: The hon. member for Fitzroy say< that Hia Excellency ought to have sent for the leader of the L<hour party. \Vhat were the terms of the resolution arrived at at the Labour C.mvention held in Rockhampton last year? They decided that in any Govermnent which they formed there must be a majority of the Labour p.rty.

1\Ir. RYLJ.NI>: \Ve would have the majority.

Mr. OA::\IPBELL: How could the hon. mem­ber for Fortitude Vn,lley form a Ministry with seventeen men in his party" He might he able to do it if he were supportpd hy the party opposite, but he could certainly not get any support from anywhere elsP. He would not have come to our party for ,;upport.

Interjections from the Labour party.

Mr. CA}IPBELL: It wouid he just as reasonable and just as likely for the good of the courtry to ask us for support as it would be to ask the other side. There is no such thing as Conservatives in this countrv. There are no such things as crusted Tories, or ~~eaction~des, or any of those. wild terms that they like to bandy et bout n,t election time. The country from one end to

the other is Essentially democratic. That is sho\\-'n at evel'y election and in every 1nan's speech. \Vbat more do you want than that!

J'>Ir. R YL.\XP: It was shown at the last election all right.

Mr. CAMPBELL : I submit that at the last elaction the country had no chance of gettin~ a fair understanding 'of what was before it. Our side were prevented right and left from express­ing their opinion,. There is no donl>t abont that. I did not speak myself ye ,tet"day on this question of lli.sturbing pubiic meetingo, but I had an experience in Too\V<J(Vnba.such a8 I nc~ver had in my life. There was I standing up before an im1nense audience anrl drclined a, bearing, although the grt·.n body of thot'e present were n,nxious n,nd willing to hear me. I suppose there were about 300 or 400 out of the3,000 or -!,000 who were pre•ent who were determined that I should not be heard, rrs they were eft·aid that something I would "ay would affect their side. I was challenged to come t•> Too­woomba by both members. In a speech whi~h they had delivered a night or two before they sairl I wa~ not gnn1e to con1e to Toowo01nba -that I was not game to cnrne and. fRf'e an audience there, and yet when I did go there I was given on8 of the rrwst horrible receptions that a nmn could he giYen. I \Hnt there as a stranger, and as a :i\Jinister for the time being, n,nd as I was preJ a red to let them know whn,t I had to sn-y, I ought t.J ha Ye been heard in something like a. rea;:;;;)nabk rnanner. Hu'''eYer, I got in a lot of what I hrrd to say here and there, but I was h0wl~d down as soon as I 'vas getting on with my speech. The most extraordiuary thing in connection with it was that in that P'trticular audience there were four or five of these Syrians, who were the leaders of this particular trouble.

Hon. R. PHILl': \Vhite Australia._ J\Ir. CAMPBELL: That was the sort of

thing we had there. The Premier went np there a little time hef•>re that, and he harl one of these men at the head of his procession. He is the boss shown1an of Qur,ensland, i~ this san1e Prernier, undoubtedly. He believes a lot in effect of that kind, and he had a. proce.sHinn through the streets of To<Hvoonlba, \vith a Syrian on a white charger at the head of it, and they marcherl along to the admiring ga>.e of the whole of the Toowoomba resident><. (Laughter.)

Mr. KEOGH: He goes in for black labour.

Mr. OAI\IPBELL: At the meeting which he addressed at Toowoon1ba there were four or five n1en who were engaged in keeping Ghe crowd going when ther6 "'as likely to be a little silence. I do nut think the leader of the Labour party endeavoured to keep this sort of thing down as he might have done.

Mr. RYLAxJ> : He did not know anything abontit.

Mr. CAJ\IPBELL: The leader of the Labour party knows a good deal about it. . I can say in this House, without fen,r of contrad,ction, that I never sairl anything disrespectful or person".] of any ll1tUl in it in any ,..:bape c..r forn1.

l'IIr. Coyxg: You are not blaming the Labour party in T'oowoomba, arr· you?

Mr. CA::\IPBELL: I a111 not saying anything about the Labour party in Tnnwoornba. It was a public meeting, n-od that was the re?eption I got. 1\Ir. Bt_nvrr~an, sveaking at a n1eetwg In the Valley, referred to the firm I am connected ;vi:h in regard to the wages supposed to be pard m connection with the bm:;inest:i which we coutTol in the Albion. He then made a statement which he knew was not true, Lecause a per:o;nnal friend of his, to whom he referred the mn-tter, told him it wa~ untrue.

Jfr. Campbelf.1

106 Address ~n Reply. [ASSEMBLY.] Address in Reply.

::Ylr. BC\Y)L;x: You are wrong.

::\[r. C.A::\IPBELL : I will give the hon. mem­ber the narue of the gentle1nan, if necessary ; he is a man the hon. rnember ha::- a good deal of respect for, an<l w hn i~ not likely to lie in a maLter of this kind. The hon. member said that the Minister for Hailways was paying men -±~d. an hour.

::\lr. BOIDIAX: 'rh at was :tn interjection which came from one in the audience. I di:lnot make the statement, but simply repeat•ed it after it was interjected.

::Y[r. C.Ai\IPBELL : My informant is :Hr. Thomas ::\Ic::\linn, awl he says that Mr. Bowman, the leader of thP Labour party, told him he had hear<"! the statement, "'nd he (::\lr. ::\IcMinn) told him it was absolutely untrue.

.Mr. BOIDHN: It wns after that meeting.

i\lr. CAMPBELL: \Vhat would he the prac­tical result of such a statement? \Vhat was it made for? It was made to discredit the party I was a"ociaten with and tn prevent me being heard in the Valley. Was that the sort of thing -calcnlated to enable the c mntryto understand the issues before it? Was that fair fighting? It is a thing I ne1·er expected to g·et from the leader of the Labour party. I should not have said a word about it now were it nJt that I do not think it is a fair thing to the country tv adopt snch tactics, and tlmt it is not to the credit of the hon. member as a leader to etoop to such t~ctics. Certainly it is not a thing that I desen·ed or that the party I am connected with deserved.

:\Ir. LEsiNA: They are paying G~d. an hour in the Railway Department; now. "

::\Ir. CAMPBELL: I had no chance of making any alteratinn in the Railway Department, or I think I would have done it before long.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: \Vhat wages are you paying your employees now?

Mr. CAMPBELL: I know the Mini,ter for Railways has this thing on the brain. I have said before that our firm pay "' bif!her rate of wages than is paid by other firms engaged in the same business. The poverty of the late Govern­ment, and the poverty of the Labour party at the elections was exemplified by the fact that they felt it nece•Hary to try to connect me with the \V ages Boards Bill. \Vhy, that proposition of mine with regard to the .Factories and Shops Bill shows that I was the foremost raan in this Assembly in trying· to get for every man engaged in a trade the benefits of that measure.

l\Ir. Bow:>! AN: \Vho suggested the amend­ment'?

::\1r. CA::\IPBELL: Nev,.er minnwho suggFs'ed it. I was the man who proposed it in this House, and who got the credit or the discredit some 1ne1n bers tried to throw upon 1ne in connection with the farmers.

::\Ir. BOW)IAN : You tried to go b"'ck on it. .Yir. CA.'IIPBELL : I did not try to go back

on it. I moved that amendment in connection with the Factories :md Shops Bill, and I submit that I couln not move a clause in connection with that Bill which would apply to farmers. The hon, member for the Valley, when he once got the in ea, s\:trted to a! ter it. The hon. member said I rlin not know the gun was loaded. I did not load the gun, but perhaps I pro­duced the gun and he and his party lo1ded it. The hon. member for Gympie, Mr. 1\Iulcahy, was the man who added to the clause the words which roped in the farmers. \Vhy din not he get the credit of that 9 I do not want his political prog·eny. I have enough nf my own to look after. The political poverty of those hon.

[Mr. C ampbell.

members was so appalling that they had to take .J. D. Campbellup and t.ry to show that he, as one of the prominent membera of the Opposition, had roped in the farmers. \Vhy did not they give credit fur that to the hem. member for Gympie, the man who proposed that amendment in the \VageR Boards Dill, and admit th><t I had voted againBt the inclusion of farmers? Fortunately, the farmers din not believe them, for they are not like town men, or town boy•, or town hoodlums.

LABOC:R ME~JBEB>l: Oh, oh!

Mr. CA.\IPBELL: ThAre are any amount of hnodlums m the towns. It was shown quite clearly during the elections that a gang of hood· lums went round to meetings to disturb the speakers.

::Ylr. LES!XA: They ought to be locked up . Anyone disturbing a public meeting should be locked up.

::\lr. CAMPBELL: I agree with the hon. member that organised obstruction ou«ht to be dealt with.

YI:r. LESIXA: Organised obstruction ought to be uealt with under the head of "Conspiracy."

Mr. CAMPBELL : I have no doubt that that woul•l be a good wav to deal with it. I am afraid however, that I have bPPn drawn off the track by these interjection,;. Having regard to all the precedents, I contend that the Governor was perfec~.ly justified in the action he took. in diRsolving Parliament, and that he had no optiOn to do anything elee. It is apparent to everyone to-day that the three-party system is a rotten system. I would a thon.'<:md times sooner see the Labour party cm the Government ben~hes with a maJority behind their backs than contmue the state of affairs we are working under now.

::\lr. RYLAXD: \Vhy don't you support uB, !;hen?

Mr. CA::\IPBELL : You fellc.ws are roped in again. I am not very anxious about Parlia­mentary honours. It would pay me better to leave them alone, but when one gets into the running one does not like to "show the white feather" and drop out. I had no difficulty in gettin~ the g·oodwill of the people I represent, as anyone who travels the length and breadth of the ~Ioreton district can find out for himself. I have done nothing to be ashamed of, and I believe that, generally speaking, I have the good­will of members in this House. (Hear, hear !) I have been told on many platforms that I am on the wrong side of the Hnus~, because my democratic opinions are so advanced, and that I should be on the other side.

Mr. :\lAX WELL: \Vhoever accused you of that?

l\1r. CAl\lPBELL: Xot you. Supposing the position of parties which existed ><t the dissolu­tion of the late Parliament harl been reversed, and Mr. Kidston had been sent for under the same conditions, do you think that that hon. gentleman would have been likely to object to form an Administration? He is one of the readiAst of ready men in the House to take nd­vantage of so excellent an opportunity. He would be the last m"'n in Queensland to refuse to no it~ he would take hold of the opportunity with Loth hands all the time. It will be seen, therefore, that the talking we have heard so much of is really only padding. There. is no sincerity in it. 'l'he Government are simply trying to mak<' the best of a bad case, trying to hoodwink the country into believing that the Governor did something he should not have done. \Vith regard to the Railway Depart­ment, I did noL give away the secrets, of the department. It would have hnrt t.he Govern­ment a great deal more if I had gone further

Address in Replp. [12 MARCH.] Address in Reply. 107

than I did, but I rlid not disclose what railways were included in their approved policy. I only gaYe the nnmber of rail w".ys thev proposed to con8truct. The Pren1ier said they were in earner.;t about those railwavs. I nevfl' said they were not in earnest ; I simply said they had nnt got the plans reany. That was thA thing that sur­prised m. \Ve believed, from the way the Secre­tary for Rnilways and the Premier had spoken many a time, that the plans of a great manv rail­ways were ready for preRentation to this House. I told .the country that the plnns of only one ,mall line were ready on the last day that this Hmli•e met last year--22nd Xo,·eruber.

::\Ir. LEsr:->A : \Vas that the Blair-Atholline? l\Ir. CAMPBELL: X o. Hon. H. l'HILP : The plans of that line were

ready six years ago.

::\fr. CAMPBELL: Without anv breach of confidence, I may tell the hon. m"ember that that was one of the lines that it was intended to build. 'l'o show that they were not in earnest

on this question, the Premier him­[8 p.m.] self stated that there were some

thousands of pounds worth of rails being landed at Pinkenba, and he asked if that did not show that thev were in earnest about building these railways'? Those rails at Pinkenba were intended for relaying the line from Eagle Junction to Ip<wich with heavier rails, aud were not for new railways at all. ::"fo less than £250,000 worth nf r'ai!way materiel had been ordered and paid for in London without any aprropriation. That was done through the Agent-General, who was inotructed to make the purchase.

::\ir. SuMXER : ""ot after Parliament said they were not to do it.

::\Ir. CA::\IPBELL: The whole of this deb<>te ha< taken place on thi; que~tion of the Govern­ment of the day having no right to expend money until they are authorised to do so by Parliament. Then how can these hon. gent le­men defend themsElves for spemling £250,000 in one depertment without the authority of Parli~ment? That, in itself, i• a pretty hig condernn><tion of them, without anything else. No douht they will attempt to iuake some €Xplanation as to why they did this sort of thing. I dn not say th•t the thing was wrong. I thmk that it was necessary to have those rails coming alnng. It has not been alleged­and they dare not allef!e-that we have done anything that w~s wrnug, or anythin~ that others might not have done if they had been in our place. \V e were si m ply administrators for the time being. \Ve incurred no fresh expendi­ture.

::\Ir. LEsixA: You were guilty of ejecting them from office and robbing them of their salaries.

::\Ir. CAMPBELL: That is "the head and front oi our offending." \Ve were guilty of ejecting them from office and putting them to the trouble and the tnrmoil of another election. But I ''ay we were amply ju.st.ified by all the eircumst.~tnces I have referred to, and it was reasonable on our part to assume that the country wanted to put an end to the state of chaos which then existed, and wnich still exists in this Chamber. I do not know how the Gorernment of the day can feel proud of their position. Here we have the spectacle of twenty-five men sitting on the other side of the Home against the balance of the seventy-two men sitting on this side. That is a pretty 'tate of affairs. And yet \ve have the Pretnier posing again as: the boss showman, as I have called him. \Ve have a political Samson posing as the strongest man in queensland.

:M:r. MAN:-<: He showed you up properly. :Yir. CA::\fPBELL: How did he show me up? lYir. i\fAXX : He showed how incorre~t yon

were. ::\Ir. CAMP BELL: I say I was truthful to

the last. degre''-absolntely truthful-too truth­ful. If I had told the whole truth, it would have been very uncharitable to the Government. I do not expect anything from the hon. member for Cairns. I know his ways-he is not wurth taking serion' nOtice of. The Premier stated last night -and it is stnted in th<e Addre.,.;-that the disso­lu\ion brought about a delay which wns injurious to the country'.:-' beAt interest:.s in the 111attf:'r of works that th.e G<lVPrnment had in contemplation when the House rose on 22nd ::'\ ovember last. \Ve offered to go on with any rail way proposals that were ready; but there was nnly one little plan found to be in existence, and thirteen rail­ways were on their pr()grannne.

The Hm!E SgcHET.~RY: You admit we had a policy after all.

:Mr. CAMPBELL : I took except'on, not to the policy they bad framed, hut to the length of time they t<lok to fran,e it. On the !Jth January, 1907, the then ::\Iinister, :VIr. Denham, ~elected ten railways. A very short time >tfter that the Secretary for Lands went into the Railway office on the resignation of Mr. Denham. He :tpproved of Mr. Den ham's selection with the exception of one railway. A copy of the minute giving reasons why Mr. Denham arrived at his conclusions was sent to every member of the Cabinet with m one week of that time. That being so, it is a reason­able assumption that the various members of the Cabinet, unle•s they offered sume objec­tion, adopted the list of railways then proposed. I submit, further, tha', if they had done so, those ten railwavs would have been ready to place before the House in July last. But what was done? The Secretary fur Lands remained in the Rail way office for "ome tive month;, and there is no evidence in the R,i]way Department to show that the hon. gentleman did anything at all to fructify or bring into operation thiH policy of the Government, notwith"tanding that the Under Secretary for Lands called pPinted attention in his annual report to the damage that was being done to land setLlement owing- to the absence of a railway policy. He recomn,enderl, further, that it was a desirable thmg in the in wrests of the country to withdraw all land until the Go­vernment hJd arrived at a milway policy. Critici-ing the hon. gentlem:.n frnr11 the political otandpoint. of Secretary for Railway,< and Secre­tary for Lands, he enjoyed a most excellent opportunity to help lrio own rlepartment along by getting this policy agTeed to. It is a reason­able a,<sumption that as the hon. gentleman took office early in February, l!JO/, the policy wonld have been approved of while he was in office. But four days before he left office as Secmtary for Railways he brought down a brand new programme. He brought in six new railways, and cut out, o•hers "'hich he had previously approved of. He ~oes out of office, and the pre-~ent Minister, 1-Ir. IZerr, cmnes in. Two monthf> slip by, and there is no evidence that H1ere was anything further c].,ne. Then the Pren1ier comes on the scene, and ha~ a diflcussion about certain railways, and a couple of weeks later JYir. Kerr has a further discussion about some rail way8. But it was not until 241 h Octo­ber thaL they actually arrived at their policy. There was my charge-I repeat it to-night; and it can be proven to the hilt from the documents in t.he office-that from 9th January right down to 24th October there was nothing but humbug and vacillation.

}Ir. LESINA: That statement of the case has been denied.

Mr. C amp'bell.l

108 .lddress 1n Rep(y. [ASSEMBLY.] Address in Repl.lf.

~Ir. CA>IPBELL: The Premier told me that I had only told hall the truth. but if I told the whole truth it would make thin•'"s very uncomfortable for his Government. a

~lr. L t:SD!A: I ha.ve no doubt the Govern­mt>nt intended to build those railways.

:\Ir. C-'1.:\JPBELL: Yes I have no doubt they did at some time. '

:\lr. LESI"'A: \\'e will get them all in 191/.

~Ir. C'A:\IPBELL: The drafbmen emplDved by the departmeut were ,,~orking at very h"igh pressure at the plans of thooe thirteen rail­·,·. ays. an cl not less than five that were new WNf' proposed in October.

:\[r. LESIKA: \Yho hronght thos" five new oue-:. in':

~Ir. C\UIPBELL: J\Ir. Kerr.

~Ir. Lt:SIKA: \Ye re any to g·o out from Blackall':

:\Jr. C:UIPBELL: Yes; you must expect the hon. gentleman to look after his m• n electorate. I want to impre's on the HousB that the.w tmfortunate Jrafbmen were beino­S\vca.tedlike -la.Y£.3, owing to the ineptitude of the UoYCnlment, to get these plans readv. The 1ne!l \< Pre a.t tho f'nd of a lash, ,,o to speU.lc, and had orcl:•rs that tlwv must work at the plans until they ''ere ready. And after all, the plan:".'' _re-'. only pa.rlian1eutar:v plmb. T!to PTf'lTIH?r ha.s n1a.de a great fu:-:;s about the ra.il· ways he i:') ~--oillg to have built, but there were only three or four of the whole thirtt>en the plans of which were ready, and then those wore ouly the parliamentary plans, and it will take uutil the f'lld of the vear to eet most- of the worbng plan ready so' that th;; work•· can be actually 'tarted.

}fr. LESIXA: Some time next year.

Mr. CA:\IPBELL: I estimate about the end of the year.

l\lr. L.ESIX.l: Then~ n1ay be a general Plec· tion bcfme thPn.

i\Ir. Cc\:\Il-'BELL: Xmv. the Premier has tried to make a lot of capital out of the fact that the late GoYernment, through their action, have C::luse-1 a great deal of distrcs;:; in the country owing . to t.he railways not being ;.tartrecl._ and so absorbmg the> unemployed. He has smd that 111 ruany pJaecs. :N O\V, I sub1nit that if it had been po>·;iblc to start thc--1 thirteen railw.;ys, or half of them, they wonlcl ha Ye absorb~·d a great dcalrnon' labour than is ,n-ailablc. H, < xpecicd to get labourers from the Downs, and ,aid that he clicl not want tho hanesters to be walbng about. He said also that the ca1w-cuttors "oulcl be absorbed bv the ne_w railv :ty works, but I submit that, afte-r the railway;:; had been started, the:se n1cn \'vere not likely to have g01w back to the caneficlds or the farn1.:; ou the Darling Do;Yns, and -,vhere, then, coulcl the farmers e'Cpect to get their lal·our from? That is the position of things. The ~1on. ge-ntleman eau do nothing in rP:;ard to an nnmigra tion policy, because his Labo-ur friends ~ill not allow him. If the raih'.'ay works offer b1g wag<',. as no doubt they will, because some at least of these rail wa vs must be built then there is ~-C':!:'~· little chan~0 of anY of thcs~ 1ncn being· induced to undertake the ~rdinarv avoca. tions of. harn:>sting aucl cane-cutting. There is no gettmg away from a fact like that.

J\Ir. Cow_:,p: A little more wages will not do any har:u.

Mr. CA:\IPBELL: I an1 not saying anything about that. but I say that sufficient labour do',

[Mr. Campbell.

not exist in the country, and that the GO\-ern. ment have signally failed to malm provision for the extra labour that will be required through the construction of these raihva vs.

An HoxonunLE J\IE}fBER: c-;m they not be got in Sydney?

J\Ir. C.""-~\iPBELL: There are thousands of IY1Cn wanlccl for the;;o railway:::: and where are. thev to be found? The Pre'm'ier himself told us that he v. 1ntcd to make provision and find employmcm for the labour that was unem­ployed aft-•r the hanesting on the Downs and the cane-cutting in the sugar district.:;.

:\Ir. CO\vAr: You ray it is avaibble after the harwsting'

)lr. Cc\=,JP BELL: The Premier himself said so. I run not saying so. I an1 only repeating \vhat he said. Iio £aid so in Toov.'o0n1ba. Bris­bane, C:aboolture. and other places, and he said so here only last night.

The Ho,JE SECRETARY: Do vou not think ihat is a good intention? "

:\Ir. CA :'liP BELL: I ask the hon. gentleman what are the men going to do when they want labour on their farms and cannot get it?

The H o:\IE SECRETARY: Do vou advocate that this la.bour should lJe unemployed for s1x rnunth- .. ·:

~lr. C~--\~IPBELL: I a.n1 not going to ansln_"r that que~tion. but I ~>ant :-on to sho,,- nw bo"--'~ the farmer;:; are going to get the Jabour that they inevitable· will require for their next­haryest? There is a. probl -'nl for yon. The: Pr0mi0r \,ant~ to adopt a ~ort of stop·gap policy. Find employment fDr thE' time being·. and let the fanner::'- g-o haug-. I1e i~ one of a, Gov.P.rnment that i~ not ga.me to bring do1n1 a comprehensive immigration sch-eme.

The llmm SECRETARY: \Ye clo not want Ull­

emplo,vecl.

~lr. CA:\lPBELL: l\'o Dne \vants unem­ployed, bnt we do \V ant tlH.:. C O\·ernn1ent to look thi.~ problcn1 squarely a.nd fairly in the fact'. Xow. we \Wre told that the 'Xoodford Railwav was to be readv on the 7th l'i"ovember; the Br)wen Ya.llev Rallwa.v on tht> 14th ::\o­vember: the l\'e,,; Zealand. Gullv Railwav on the Uth l\'ovcmbcr; and the; \Yarwid< to .:\larvn.le Railwa·, Dn thf' 7th Xovember .. -'I.­a matter Df fact,' the \Yoodforcl Ra.ilwa_v \'as not reach· until the 22nd ;'\ovember. That was tlw ·first 0110' aYailabk• f{)l· thP Commi'<­sioner to report npon. The 13o·'-·en Yallcy Railwav wa.s not reaclv until the 2'ith Xm·em­ber: th'e Xew 7:ealancf Gully Rail" ay until the 18th Ja.nuarv: and the \Yarwick to :\Iarvvale Raihns until the 28th J anua.rv. Those 'wer<> the onl'v four railwa'; readv when I left office -~railw~tv.s on whicf1 thf' Commi~sion€r's rc­p;li·ts \H;re ready. Tht' Raih,-ay c\ct provide> a rea.~onable safr.<:ruard that the Con1111is~ioner ~hould report upon each proposal, but I haY<' ~hown that. thrnug·h absolut,c ca-relessness and la.xity in administi~a.tion. there \\'a· no posi"i· bility nf the Co1nmis~ioncr bt=>ing- able t-o re· port within the time when it was said the railways would be reaJY. I submit that when a rail~vay policy is scattf'l'-ed over the far Xorth. \Yest, o,ml South it is impo"ible. undt>r !he circumstances that I have pointed out. for the Commissioner to do justice' to the high obligation.~ \vhich rc_-;t. on his shoulder,,. I sul1mit that it wa~ impo~--,ible; that 1H:>- would al solutelv fail. As I .said. tlwse railwan that had be01; approved Df could hav<> been' ready in .J ulv for submission to Parlia.nwnt. and if pa"ccf would bave a.bsorl:ecl all tlw unem­ployed in the- State.

Address w Reply. [12 }lARCH.] Address in Rep?;IJ· 109

:\lr. LEsrx_~: Have you ever met anybody who believed that the construction of those railways would abw-·b all the unemployed m the State?

::\lr. f'A::\IPBELL: I am not inclined to believe vcrv much mvseif. but that is what we have ,o- often hea{·([ from the other side. I admit that some of those railways are badly \\·antecl, and ~houlcl Le constructed, although at least two of them, I know, lmvo be. n con­dPmnecl bv tho (_;omrni;-;-,ioner. There \\'aS a raih,·ay rCcoinnlenc1ed from ICingsthorpe ~·irJ, Goornbungce. Bcfo::.'o the latt~ _..\.dministration left office the l\linistcr for RailwaYs knew that the Connnis~ionf' .... \Vas not prcpar.ccl to rcc.,Jm~ men cl that railv. ay. He found that the expense that would be c•ntailed in building it would never justify its construction as a branch railw:1y. I knew that the Toowoomba people -... ·'l'E' anxi Jns to get into connection with a rimber area, and c1PcidPcl no tin1c should Le lost in exc11nining- auother route. Th0 upshot of it was that l called upon the Chief Engineer for Raihv-1ys to make a recommendation, and 'aid l would act on his ach·ice. He recommended a sur\ey r :1; Oakey, ancl \Vhcn that work \Va') taken in hancl the Toovz oornba papers dcnouHccd n:-; fm· taking the surveyors awa;- fron1 the old route, charging the Philp party >Yith political jobGery, whereas our sole objPct -..vas to enable the Toowoon1ba people to get. their line~to get a fair deal, aud net to lo.;;;e time. I have spoken at g-rc>ater length than I intended. I think I have shown clearly what my Yiows are on the constitutional question and in connection -,vith raihvay n1attcrs. The ques­tion of immigration is absolutely tied up hand and foot. and the country can get no help with respect to that ': hiie parties are as they are in this House. Th·-· Labour party are bound to resist any in11nigration unless it can be shown that the inunigrants can _gf't f'nlploy­ment 11-hen they reach hr•re. This state of things is keeping the whole country back. and it will han' th very >vor.st possible rc•mlt.

:ur. LE SIX A: It is not the absence of immi­grants that is kPcping tho country back.

:\fr. CA::\lPBELL: Who is the n•al Premier of this State? The leader of the Oppo;oition jocularly remarked at a meeting- last year­quoting it from someone else-that a certain gentleman in another place was the real Pre­mier. I sav that thP real Premier to-dav is the leader of the Opposition. (Laughter.j I mean the leader of the Labour party. but what I said is exactly hmv it ought to be. The country could then g-o before the world full of a confidence which it v.ery badly wants­which it will never do so long- as this three­party system is in existence and ::\finisters a.re intriguing to remain in office. With a proper scheme of immigration there would be no bad times here; thero would be good times for everybody. The old pioneers-the men who made the country-had no jobs carved out for them. The- times are a thousand time·> better no,v, and yet \Ye haYe n1en in power who want to spoon-feed everybody. As to the late Go­vernment, we frankly admit our defeat at the polls, and if the, people do not want us we have no wish to, be over there. \Ye, might haYe had mor<' help----

::\lr. ::\LDiX: ·what about the Press?

::\Ir. C'),_::\fPBELL: I have nothing to say about the Pre'·-J, although I notice that, for husines~ or other rea.sons, one of the1n ha.s lately chano:ed its political views. Perhaps, they think it will pay better. bnt. that remams to be seen_ In conclusion. I may express the hope that we shall conduct our business with-

out acrimony. and that the session will be marked with the same good temper which has been displa.yed hitherto.

HDNDcRABLE ::\fE~IBERS: Hear. hear~

::\lr. APPEL (Albcrt): I regret that I have to occupy the attention of the llouse for some short time. but I understand it is expected froru evcrv. new member that he shoulcl express the politi~al cmwictious he has on those sub­jects which are likely to occupy the atten­tion of the Hou'e during the session which hth just ope11cc1. I n1u~t say, in. the ~rst instance, that I confess to a certain feehng of disappointment a~. to the way in vvhich the businbs of this House has been conducted fro1n the dav on which it \\'a-; opened. I must confe···,; that I consider that there are too n1anv personalities indulged in in this House, if the members have camP here for the purpose of dding the business of the' State

allCl benditing the people of the [8.30 p.m.] State. l also confcso rhat I have

a feeling of disappointn1cnt in connection with the leader of tlw House. .._\.I though I ha Ye Hover been a-;sociated v, ith hiu1 Uefore a~ a m0rnber, yPt fron1 what he has said hin1 ,,elf, and fron1 what his ~upportcrs havo said. I haYe regarded him as a very strong· nutn in de ('cl. I IJiust al::;;o f-''3.Y that I W~lS surprised to ,o;;;_•e that he was a gc<Jtle1nan who had such a delicate political SC'll'·'" that he felt impelled to cli charge from the commis­sion of the pcaeo ~300 gE~ntlcnwn who had been appointer! in the regular com--e by the de far-to ::\linistry of the clay. I ccrtamly dicl not expect to sec that gentleman, when h<> was t,-;icc defeated in a matter in which he as learlrT should have had control of the House. after suffering a defeat on a third occasion. and adjournu.1g· the :House, upon the meeting of the aJjournecl House ignon1iniously dropping a faithful supporter, on the ground that he had clecided that the question of the appointment of the Chairmanship of Com­n1ittc~Ps houlcl no lougcr be. a party one. For mvself all I can sav is, that it seems a most c:x"trao~clinary thing" that he die! not come to that conclusion before he stroYe by eYery means in his power to gain support from this side to carrv that ,-ote as a party question. (Hear, heal~ 1} Concerning tho constitutional ques­tion I do not propose to sa: much. I haYe listened with a considerable amount of intere't to the views expressed by the different leaders of th<' House. [ listened with attention to the uarefullv prepared and written addreo.s of the leader of the Government, and there is no doubt that he had apparently gone in for a considerable amount of research as far as the constitutional quC'.stion is concerned, from his point of yiew whether it is his public or priYat.e point of Yiew I am not prepared to say. (Hear, hear~} But, after all, as he expressed it in connection with otl18r things wh10h dtcl not come into that particular matter. they are n1atters of opinion; so is his expression but a matt0r of opinion. and not alone a 1natter of opinion but an expression fron1 a partisan point of view. l must confess-! clo not say it in any derogatory sense of those hon. n1em­bers ho have not had the ach-antagc at one time or another of a. legal training-that 1t seems a matTellous thing to m<' how they will express opinions upon matters _of cr:mstitutional law which men of my professiOn often have a great an1ount of hesitancy in arriYing at a conclusion upon.

::\Ir. LExxox: Lawvcrs are so modest, you know. (Laughter.} "

Mr. Appel.]

110 Address in Repl,y. [ASSEMBLY.j Address in Repl,y.

l\Ir. APPEL: As the hon. member says, lawyers are modest. I quite agree with that propo ~i tion---

:\Ir. SmJNER: Even in their bill.

:\h. APPEL: Judging from my own cha­racter in that respe-ct. (Laughter.) However, the hon. gentleman at the head of the Govern­ment admit,; that the action of His Excellency was leo;al. lmt he contends that it was not con­stitutional.

The SPEAKER: Order! I must point out to the hon. member that tlw House has already dccalt with that que;tion. I have given some little latitude to hon. members bnt I called the hon. member for :\Ioreton u; order for ref.erring to a previous dt?bate Df tne session. That debate is closed, a.nd it is quite out of order to reopen a debate which is closed, otherwi"' it might be interminable. Refer­ence may be made in the abstract to a pre­viDus d0bate. but a.rgunwnt cannot he found-ed on a pr·PYiou~ dcbat.e of the same session.

:\Ir. LEsrx.~c: Discuss the main question.

ThD SPEAKER: The hon member may debate t!w main question. but not debate what ha·- be' n closed.

:\fr. _APPEL: I will cimply content myself by sa.yn1g that. as a rule, in comi11g to a con· elusion in connection with a rnatter of cousti. t~1tional law. a layman apparently, as a rule, "mply picks out that portion which suits him­self and hi .• particular opinions.

:\fr. s~~IXER: La'.• yers, too.

. :\fr. APPEL: Members Df the profesicion !ilft the who!!' of the poinL and, aft.er weigh­mg them. ar:·Ivc at a conclusion upon the whole que-stwn. L pDn the broad question as to whether the action of His Exceliencv was con­stitutional. I mav sa.v this-and I affirm it­that His Exc0lle;1cy acted in accordance with the bes~- traditions of the constitutional law in Great Britain upon that particular subject.

0PPOSITIOX :\IE:UBERS: Hear, hear!

l\Ir. APPEL: Whether he was wise in ?oing _so is another question, but it is not my mtentwn to refer any further to that point, or to quat"' any of the precedents which have been so f~11ly quoted by th~se who ha vo spoken on the suoJect. In conncctwn with the Speech 1 regret wry much that a question which, t~ my mmcl, 1s one of the greatest questions that should be considered bv this House has not been mentionecl-1 refe~ to the matter of an i1nmigration policy.

0PPOSITIOX ilTEMBERS: Hear, hear!

:\Ir. APPEL: Although thD Ieader of the Government referred to his previous Rock­!mmpton manifesto, which included a vigorous nnrmgra hon policy, yet in the Speech there is no mention of such a policy.

:\lr. LESIKA: A very good thing, too-we do not want any immigrants here.

:\Ir. APPEL: It i, a surprise to hear that there are so many unemployed in this State; I can only assure hon. members that so far as the electorate I represent is concerned there is an absolute lack of suitable labour to assist in the development of the primary industries of that district.

An HoNOURABLE l\IE~IBER: At the wages offered.

:\fr. APPEL: I aiso feel satisfied that throughout the length and breadth of this great State of Queensland our grazing, agricul­tural, and dairying indu3tries are being re­tarded by the non-availability of suitable labour. l\ow, there was one remark which I

[Mr. Appel.

regretted to hear from the leader of the Labour party, in answer to an interjection, when he said, "You would not care to have pauperE here." To my mind that was a cruel remark to make, and it is one I feel satisfied the hon. member will regret having made. Poverty is no crime.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

:i\Ir. Su~!:<iER: It is a great inconvenience. l\Ir. BowMAN: Do you want to bring more·

here to increase the poverty? :\Ir. APPEL: I want to remark that no

healthv men. who even if thev have no capital have ~tout hearts and bra;_,nv hands, and the will and the ambition to ·get on in life, should be compelled to remain in Great Britain, Ireland, or Europe, where they are not able to gain that position in life which so many of ui', and which so many of our fathers coming here, have gained in this great State of Queens­land. (Hear, hear!) I have faith in Queens­land-in this great native land of mine. I say that what has been done, and what is possible to do in the Dominion of Canada, so much more is it possible to do in this great State of Queensland. (Hea-r, hear!) And any member in this House who has a contrary opinion­who has no faith in this Queensland-in this· great Stale-1 can only advise him to go and visit other lands, and then visit his own State, and I feel satisfied that thereafter he will corn& to the conciusion that what we are lacking is the settlement of the magnificent lands which we possPos and bringing a suitable class of immigrant into this State of ours. (Opposition "hear. hea.r~ !" ... -\s a native ...:\u~traiian. th.P aspiration of a white Australia is one that I hu.ve in n1y very heart.

A LABOUR ME~IBER: You are in the wrong place in this House.

Mr. A PPEL: If we desire that that aspira­tion shall be kept and not be a mere matter of words, it is absolutely necessary for us to gain scwh a -ufficiency of population of men of a kindred race with ourselves to help u,; and a-,sist us in the dr;fence of this great State. (Hear, hear~) For any member of this House to sav that we have a sufllcient nopulation at !he !;resent time, I say, is deceiving himself; and for any m<> m ber of this HmtSc for <;ne. moment to assert that wD have a populahon here sufficient tD dcfmid this great State of ours in case of nern,ssity, I say that he is a traitor to the State of Qtle,ensland. When we recollect that we have an approaching danger menacing us, and which will menace us, and which is an increasing danger, in the Power which is growing in the East, it will hD seen how necessarv and desirable it is that we, ,hould have a sultable population to assist us in dDfending our shores from that danger. \Ye se-c tha.t the great and powerful United States of America has decided at a cost of £2,000,000 to send to- the high seas­to send to the Pacific coast--one of the. n1ightiest naval armaments tha.t has ever sailed the seas. For what purpose? To show the Japan-ese that she is not going to allow any {'11Croaclnnen t or any imrnigration -of the· brown men unon her shorf's. And how much more n.Pcessafy is it for us, with our :<.mall population, and our small means to add a suitabl" class of people to enable us to arrest that danger which I say is approaching· and increasing·. (Hear, hear~) I also ref!ret that in that Speech no mention was made of an irrigation scheme. There is no do-ubt that at the pre:ent time we have one of the finest seasons that we have had for verv man·v years; but we must recollect that if we desire·

.Address inReply. i 12 :\LI.ncH. J Address in Repl,y . 111

to extend our settlement-if we desire to in­crease the cloc,er settl<>ment which must take place on the other sick of the Range-it is absolutely nece-;sary for QueenslmHl that a scheme of irrigation should be brought before this House at the earliest possible opportunity. (Hear, hear!) I may say this. in advocating a scheme of immigration-a vigorous policy of immigration-! do not advocate one which will simply dump people on the land and leave them then•. I say it is the duty of the State in bringing people into it to have the land that they wish settled prepared in such a way that those who are cdtled upon it will be enabled to take full advo,ntage of the benefits that shoulcl be r0cci ved.

:i\Ir. :\IA1'GHA~: That is what the, Labour party say.

Mr. APPEL: That is one of the actual necessities in connection with a scheme of im­migration. \Ve see that in the State of Vic­toria, in connection with the J\Iallee country, that the Premier of that State has a proposal whereby upon every 500 acres of land which he proposes to throw open he is prepared to put down a well or bore, so that thooo who take it and occupy it will have the nccessaro- water in that dry country to e.nable th<:>m to utilis<:> it.

Mr. Sci\INER: And the farmers are getting away from Victoria. and others arc tro-ing to get a way as fast as they can.

Mr. LE SIN A: It is the landlordism that is driving them out.

Mr.' APPEL: The hon. member for Kundah knows as well a .. I do that the reason tho1,e farmers are lPaYing Victoria is because land is not obtainable.

Mr. SUMNER: Dear land.

:Ylr. APPEL: Land is not obtainable at a reasonable price. (Hear, hear!) I also regret that in the Speech from the Throne no men­tion was made of a reduction of the number of members and a redistribution of seats.

OPPOSITION J\lE~!IlERS: Hear, hear! JYlr. LESINA: Yes, there was-the Upper

House. 1\Ir. APPEL: I think it may be admitted

tha.t there was a tacit contract made with all the States of the Commonwealth when we entered into that federation that there would be a. reduction in the number of members in the· Legislative Assemblies of thec.e States. Tha.t has been carried out in the other States, and, to my mind, it is a most extraordinary thing that it has not been carried out in the L'~gislative Assembly of Queensland.

Mr. LE SIN A: We will start at the top, Mr. APPEL: I can only ask: Does this arise

from a. patriotism to the Sta.te, or does it ariso frorn a patriotisn1 which arises from the interests that should not come between that which is a man's dutY to his State?

OPPOSITION ~1El\IBERS: Hear, hear! Mr. APPEL: In connection with the policy

of railwav construction, l can assure the Premier that he will receive my support in connection with anv project which he lays before the House ;_.,hich has for its object the dcvelopmen t of the . St~tP. J_nore l?ar­ticularlv those sottlecl chstncts m whwh, owing ~to tho non-construction of railways, development is being retarded. 'Cnd~mbtedly, in such a State as Queensland. whiCh lacks waterwaV'i, it is absolutely necessary that rail­" ay cor;struction should be carried on for suc'h a purpose. And I can only hope th~t the railway policy of the Government will

not be clang 1Nl before the m cm bers of this House and bcforB tho State in the same way in which that policy was so dangled before them during the last Parliament of Que~ns­land. (Hear, h<mr !) In connection with rail­way construction I ndbht mention that in the electorate which I have the honour to repre­sent the Be a udcscrt Shire Council had the public-spiritedness to construct a tramway with capital 'vhich they borrowed from the Go­vernment, and on which they ,are paying 4 per cent. iutercst.

:\lr. LE SIX A: Have they any arrears at a.li?

1\Ir. ~4.PPEL: ?.;; o; there aro not any arrears. Now, this tramway is and has been one of the greate,st factors in connection with pro­viding· fr<:>ight fOT the Beaudesert State rail­way. (H<ear. hear!) At the present tim<J the local authoritv are anxious to extend that tram­way, and I trust that the Premier will comider the advisability of reducing the rate of in­terest on any further loan th<>y may rec<Ji vo to at least 3 per cent. The amount of interest a.nd redemption is £5 ls. ld. per cent. at present. This is a matter which should commend ibelf not only to the :\Iinistry, but also to ev<ery member in this House, who should be anxious to secure the best terms pocsible for local authorities who show their public spirit by entering- into "'arks of this kind. 'There i•, another- tramway that is being a.sked for in connection with Ca.nungra, a.nd I trust that pro­posal will abo receive the favourable considera­tion of th<> Governm<:>nt and of fhe House. be­ca.us<:> the construction of that lino means tlw opening up of a larg-<> area of Crown lands, the development of the, district. and a large in­cr,easf' in the receipts from railway fr<>ights. because these tramwavs act as feed<:>rs to tho State railways. I was Yery pleased to rea cl the remarks made recentlv bv the J.eader of the Labour party with reference to the ·necessity of linking· up our \Yestern ra,ilway sysh'f!l· That is one of the most important works m connection 'vith railwa'\ construction that· could en~ag·e the attention ~f the Hou~e. not a.lone f01:' the purpose of opening up a. great trade route. but fDr economic purpoces; and' there can be no doubt tha.t it would be useful for de­fence purposes. If we are attacked. it will_ be by an enemv who is master of the sea. and 1t w1ll be ab·~ol~ttelv n-eces~arv, if Wf' are to rnake a g-ood a.nd s{,f!icient def<>nce, that we should have such a railway to rnove the nec'E'P.sary troops from one place to, another. I sincerely hope that the Gover_nment. an~' me,mbe_rs of. the 1-Iou-;'£' .o·enerallv wdl assi<:st. 111 carrynH; 1nto effect that particular proposition. With re­gard to the propoc.ed Elections BilL I need not tell the House that I have a mandate from mv electors to oppose any amendment in con­nection with the postal vote. (Labour laug-hter.) I may tell hon. members tha.t I a.m not here bv the use of the postal vote. The postal vote' constituted only a. very ~mall proportion of the majority which I recer~·ed. It. is possible tha.t certain abuses have crept m to the postal vote syc,tem. I am willing to admit that. a.nd so far as towns and larg•e centres of population, wher<> it is possible . for our womanhood to get to the polhng-booth very ea~ilv, are conceTned, there may be some reas~n for repealing the P9otal vote, Bc1t, so far as my electDrat<:> is concerned. If !lw pc"ta,l vote were repealed, it would mea.n tha.t 5() per cent. of the womanhood of that electorate would be deprived of the franchise. uule:-<.s ~otnc other mea.n~ \\'•en' provtd;d fDr them to record their votes without gomg to the polling-booth. \Yhen tlmt mea.mre comes

Mr. Appel.]

112 Address in .Reply. [ASSEMBLY.] Address m Reply.

before the IIouse I shall prol,ablv haYc wme­thing mnre to say about it. I' believe that member; of the House will take' all the fads oi the. ca:-;e into con~ideration, and where pos­sible devise such m0an_., as will preV<._-'llt our womanhood being deprived of the franchise to "cl1ich they are ju,o;tly entitled. I notice that mention is made in the, i:ipcech of port im­proyements. It is pos,ibb that some hon. members who come froa1 the I\; orthern por­tion'' of the State mav not fpc] much intereot in the port of Brisbm1e, but I think thev Wlll

recogniso thi3 fact: That for the large-to;mage vec,ds vchich are already visiting this port, and which we hope will continue t.o visit it in increasing nun1bers, it is absolutely nec-essary tha.t such improvements :-;houlcl be carried out a~ -will rcrnder the port of I3risbano a first-class p{Jrt. Thi~ is a. matter \vhich Y{'l'V rnuch inte­Tc.,ts us \vho a.re associated with ~listricts con­tiguous to Brisbane·. The imprcyen1ents to thE' Brisbane River are pnmeeclino; too slowlv. }'or iu~t::LllCC". in the work of Cutting awav Bulimb.1 Point only a small suction clrE>dg<> ;s ~'mployf 1. It is a V<>ry <>xcellcnt dredg-e, but when we consider that half her tim<:> is lost through thP dr{>ldg.p having to take awav the ,poil. it will be senn that thP work is deiavcd to a greatt'r extent than it should be; ancl 1 tnu:.t. the Uo""~,~{•rnmPi1t will cousicler the, aclvi~a~ bility of putting on a rnorc p{HV·erful drf'dge, so "'' to expt'clitc that and otlwr river improve­T!'If''1.t~. \Ye ha.vt:· nne of the fi1H ..;i; ~ancl~pu1np drcJcc~e>s in tlt0 wor!tl; it ,._as purchased for the ~h·odging of Freeman's Channel, but instead of beiug 0mployed on tha.t \York it i:::; lying in the riYe.r roHiu?:. If that channPl v .. 'ere dredged a ~P.vin~· of 40 miles in ent~?ring the port would be- Pfft:>ctcd. I :-;omctirnc~ hear hon. members tr1lkinc'' about the urwmploverl abcmt Brisbane. \Yell. there is the dredge. i1ncl I dare say there

. are nwn suitable to plc,,:e upon that dredge. ~~h.'· are they not placer! upon lwr. m1d why 1:;;. rhe drcdttf1 not ca.rrynu:{ Dut the \Vork for v hi eh slw was purche"secl '! \Yith rcgca,·cl to the \Yagecs Boards Bill. I mav tell hor;. nwm­lwr-< that I am perfcctlv in 'accord with the propo:-'a.l to po.;lablif'h wa.gf':' board~ so far as LHH' ~·"condary iudu:-;trie.s are concerne-.d. I e<JJHider that, the time has arriYecl when those companip.;; and tho~0 employers \Yho are en~ gaged in Dur seconda.ry industrie,,, should pa.y that amount of wag" which is due and which :;;.hDu.ltl be paid t<J thos" \vho nr-e working in bctori<>s, an cl who acrE' at the prc c('nt time not T{'ceiving that \Yhich t1lf'y should rec{'ive-­rmmely, a livin"o; wag0. I will support thE' ras<aC(0 of that Bill. acnd I truest that whPrf' it is possible, to introduce anv clause which will abolish the abornination of s,veatinS! t11is }louse "ill sec that it is introduced anr(passed into ]a,w. At the pr<'sentc time there are hundreds {)£ operatiYf'::' in factorie..: \Yho are receiyincr a. mPrP pittance of a. '\Yar e. a.nd I s.ay it i~ a :JisgTa.c.::-· to tho·-e who are {'r::.ga.!2,·f'd ~in those ll!dllstriPs that such a st L,c,? of affairs should continue.

:l!r. Con:E: Hmv much do tbev pav in the frrmiug industry? V V

::\Ir. APPEL:, I can assure the hon. member for \\'arrego that if those who are engaged in the seconclarv industn~s onlv received fhq same rate of wage. that ~hose w'ho are engaged in thr pnmary mdustnes rccen·e, they would be fxtremcly well sati,sfiE>d. But I would point out t.hat tho conditions in our primary in­chlstnf's are alJsolut•2l-v and entirelv different from those which prevail in the seconclarv in­dus.trirs. Those who are- engaged in our nlanu~ facturing industries haYe to keep pace with machinery. You will fincl upon the walls of these factories "Smoking Strictly Prohibited."

[Jfr. Appel.

FTom the time the op< rativcs enter tho fac­tories until they leave them they have to keep pace with n1achinery; and. ho\\'CYer well

vcntiluJecl the factorie, may be, [U p.m.] we know that the conditions under

'''hich they work in this cli1nate Df ours in sun1n1er are certn,inly not c-onducive to their health. "Cnder thesB conditions it is Dnly right and proper that they should receive suit­able TClnuneration. Xov,', con:5ider the difff'.r~ ence in c0nnection with those eugaged in onr primary industries. A man engaged in plough­mg, for instance" is not prohibited from smok­ing. \Vhen he comes to his headland you will see him stop his horses, fill his pipe with to­bacco, and have a smoke. In nine cases out of ten those who are employee! by the agricC>l­turist or the dairvrnan are trea tee! as one of the family. They' all eat together.

Mr. LE SE\ A: That is the chief objection some of them ha.-e got, (Laughter.)

Mr. Al'PEL: \Vcll, in those cases in my distuct where they arc not accommodated togethrr the:; rPgarcl it as a bad place. I have heard it mid that bec:wse a man is a farmer he is well off. l\ow, allow me to assure hon. me m hers that it takes a .-erv considerable number of vcars of hare! worl; for a man to get into that position. He has to contend with weather conditions which not cyen thie House nor the present leader of the Government aro aL!e to legislate for, althoug·h. strange to say, I believe it was said b,. electors that they voted for the leacher who brought the rain. (Laughter.) Then we must remember that those engaged in our primary industries are not able to ca.lc:u1ate thf• a,nwunt thev will re­cPive for their produce. Tho:.e who ar~ enga~·ed in tlw dairying inclu .. try know that the price of butter in Londm1 )'"f''".:erclay r,c.gula.t0s the price they will receive for their cream to-day . This industry is only in its infancy. and it is to our pri1nar.y industries we muRt look for the aclYanccmcnt and deYelopment. of this State, because we shall not bG able to com­pcto as a n1anufacturing country with other States of the worlcl where ch<'ap labour is procurable. and more e'pecially with those Eastern countries ,,-hich arc entering more and more into the manufacturing industries.

l\Ir. IIcXHA~I: Do you want cheap labour here?

::\Ir. "\PPEL: J do not wish to sec cheap labour here, and that is why I speak of Queens­land not becon1ing a nwuufacturing ~tate, for the simple reason that. if we have to compete with the countries of the world. wages will be less thau they are now.

i\Ir. LESIXA: l:p-to-datc machinery will havo to be employed.

Mr. APPEL: Quite so, and that will throw a num her of those engaged in these industries amongst the number of the unemployed. It is a great pity that we have not got control of our Customs du.ties. because I should like to soe a high duty placed upon those articles which we can produce, and a living wage paicl, and let those consumers 'Nho. in the end, havf> the benefit of it pay the amount that is neoes­,ary for those manufacturing such articles to pay such ·wagf"3.

Mr. LESI!'<A: In the last analysis the general public will pay.

l\Ir. APPEL: I am very glad to hear that the amendment of th" \Yorkers' Compensation Act will take the form of doing away with the two wc·cks which at the present time are allowed to elapse before the compensation can start. The only wonder to me is that this two

Address in Repl.IJ· [12 }fA.RCH.] Address in Repl,y. 113

weeks' lapse has been allowed to stand as long as it has done. That amendment shall cer­tainly receive my support when it comes before the House. In connection with the Old Age Pensions Bill which is forecast, it shall cer­tainly receive my support; but any clause which makes it obligatory for a deserving poor person to go to a public police court in order to prove that they are destitute will certainly not receive such support.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Mr. AFPEL: It is a most discreditable

thing· that desen·ing poor persons should have to expose their poverty, because poverty is no crime, and it certainly is the duty of the State to make provision for its destitute and aged people.

Mr. RYLAND: Poverty is a very inconvenient thing, all the same. (Laughter.)

Mr. APPEL: I notice that a Land Bill is promised. I hope that the result of sucn amendment of the Land Act will be to make land cheaper for those who desire to get it. (Hear, hear!) I trust that the Bill will contain a clause, or that it will be possible to introduce a clause, providing that once more homesteads may be acquired by those who have no capita.J. (HBar, hear!) It .seeems to me a most extra­ordinary thing that for the past four or five years again, poverty appears to be a bar to a man acquiring an interest in the land of the State. At the present time, owing to the high prices which have been put npon the Crown lands of the State, it is practically impossible for a poor man to obtain the land which he ought to have the right to acquire. Under our old homestead clauses it was possible for a selector to acquire 160 acres of land for 2s. 6d. per acrB by performing the condition of resi­·denoo and making certain improvements. That was one of the most. desirable provisions in our Land Acts. and it is only right that a man should be able to acquire a homestead if he is prepared to fulfil these conditions.

:Mr. SmrNER: And good land, too. 2\1r. APPEL: And good land, too, because

the man with 110 capital but a stout heart and strong hands must be prepared to• go. out into the scrub and to carve his liome out of that scrub; and. in order to obtain the neces­sa.ry capital for that purpose, has to be pre­pared to go out and work for every penny that he expends in the improvement· of that property. It is the duty of the State to help sLJch men, and I trust that when an amending land Bill comes before the House those who have the interest of the poor man at heart will insist upon the addition of such a clause, so that the man whose only crime is his poverty may get an interest in the land.

2\Ir. RYLA.ND: It has been a splendid way­for dummying.

:Mr. APPEL: In reply to that I may say that the House can make the conditions such that dummying will not be possible. There is many a man to-day who i;; enjoying a compe­tencv, and whose family is a credit to him and to tlie State, who began life a.s a homesteader. If the House does not provide tha.t the home­stead conditions are made general, I trust 1t will at ]east apply them to those Queen slanders who desire to settle on the land.

Mr. LESINA: They should get the preference. Mr. APPEL: In connection with the Boiler

and Machinery Bill which is forecast, that, of course, will have my support, because it is only right that every care should be taken of those who a.re Bngaged in hazardous work,

1908-I

and I trust that the inspection will be a rigid one. I have already pledged myself as a sup­porter of the Referendum Bill in regard to religious instnwtion in State schools. In my opinion it should be left to the people to say whether they wish religious instruction given or not. As regards the State Insurance Bill, that also will have my support so long as it simply applies to insurance under the Workers' Compensation Act. because it is the duty of the State to make pro1·ision £01·- insur­ance on payment of a reasona.ble premium in connection with that Act. The. Super­annuation Bill in conne~uon with the Civil Service will also have my support. Members are a ware as well as I am that to a great extent the wholB of these measures were dis­closed in the policy of the hon. gentleman whom I have the honour of following. So far as the ::'vlatrimonial Causes Bill is concerned, I trust we shall find when it comes before the House that it places our womanhood on the same footing as our manhood.

An Hoc-;O<:RABLE ME~IBER: 'Will it affect the n1arriage tie?

i\Ir. APPEL: I do not want to discuss the marriag·e tie, but if the Bill enables a woman to obtain a divorce in other cases than adultery it will be worthy of the support of hon. members. There is a matter which I am sorry has not been forcast in the Speech, and that is the reorganisation of o-ur Police Force. At th.eo present time it is worse paid than any force in the Comonwealth, and the police also have to provide their own uniforms. I certainly think it is the duty of the State to provide them. I hope this matter will re· ceive. the· earnest consideration of the House, a.nd that a.n efl'ort will be made to induce the Government to grapple with the question. Another matter I should like to touch UP<Jn is the establishment of a univecrsity. It is a great pity that that matter has not been alluded to in the Speech.

:'vir. R.YLAND: We all feel the want of it. i\Ir. JENKINSON: You are a living example

of the need of it. i\:Ir. APPEL: It is a very poor advertise­

ment for t.he great State of Queensland that, even while little Tasmania has its university, this State has nonB. I say it is the duty of the State. to provide every possible educa­tiona.! facility for its children, whether rich or poor, who- have the brains and ability to acquire a high-class education. Regarding thB reform of the Upper House, I quit€ feel that the time has come when some refocrm should take place. I certainly support the reform of making the Upper House elective, but whate-ver measure of reform comes before the House-I may say I am not in favour of the abolition of the Upp& Chamber-I shall feel it my duty to give it serious consideration, even though it does not take the exact form that I at present approve of. I notice that there is to be an amendment of the Shops and Fa.ctories Act, and I hop€· that Bxtraordinary anomaly. whereby employees, if they have a holidav in the middle of thB week, are punished! by having to work on Saturday afternoon, will be abolished. That seems to me a most extraordina.ry defect to have been allowed to remain in the Act. I trust if an amendment dealing with that matter is not in the Bill to be introduce<:l it will be inserted when the BiJ! is under consideration.

:Yir. R.YLAND: It was fixed up last session, but got lost between here and the Council.

:'vir. APPEL: I regret having- occupied the time of the House· at such length.

J.11r • .Appel.]

114 Address in Repl,y. [ASSEMBLY.] Address in Repl.IJ.

HONOURABLE }lDIBERS : No, no! Go on. Mr. APPEL: I onlv desire t-o say that

although at the preoo11t time our form of Government is neces.sarily party Government, yet there are many matters of interest to the people of the State, and which make for the development of the State, in regard to which members should r-ecognise no partv. If thBv hav€ any patriotism at h€art, they should sink their party fBeling and assist in developing the State and benefiting its people.

Mr. RYLAND: Why do you not sit on this ~ide'?

~Ir. APPEL: \Yell. I have been nlaced in my pres;>nt position by the electors {,f Albe-rt without a.ny solicitation on my part. and I am sitting with a party which is absolutely free a.nd unfettered. and who are a.t liberty to <>xpress their democmtic fe.elings. (Laughter.) J have no fault to find vnth the members of the Labour party. because I recognise that they have been nlaced in the position thev occupy for a. certa.in purpose, and it is thei~· abso!Ltte duty to carry that purpose into effBct: and, so far as any legislation is concerned which will make for the economic and socia.l advancBment of those who are callBd the workers, they will have all the help I can cive them to accomplish that object. But we h·ave to remember this fact: the-y insist themselves that they a.re simply there for the benefit of one particular cla.s'. As a demucrat, I am her-e for the advancement and for the benefit o£ a.ll classes; and I do not care who thev are -whether they belong to those who are em­ployees or whsther thBy belong to the employers of labour-so far as justice can J:e accorded to them they will receive mv assist­ance. So far as those who are employBes are concerned. they shall recBive a.!l the assistance I can give them to make their condition that which it ought to be. That is my position m this House, a.nd I have no doubt that, with that amount of leniency which will be accorded to myself as a new n1-ember-·--

Mr. LESINA: You can take care of yourself. Mr. APPEL: I am not going to say that I

fe<Jl particularly neryous to-night. What I was go1ng ~o say was tb1s: There mav be occasions when I hope to be able to assist that party: and thB hme may also come when it is their duty lik~wise to assist me, provided I honestly ~nd truly carry out those principles which I nave shortly enuncmted to you this evening. (Hea.r, hear!) ·

Mr. HAHDACRE (Leichhardt) : I think we may congratulate the new member for Albert on his maiden speech; it wa.s an excellent effort on the part of a. new member. But it will be a matter for regret if, before we pass on to g,eneral matters, we have not a larger discus­~ton on the main question which is contained m. the Address _in Reply-that is, the con­stttutwnal Issue mYolved. It is also to be re­gretted that we have not had the advantage of the v1ews of thB Attorney-Ueneral, as the legal adnser of the Government. No doubt he w1ll he able to give a. great deal of enlightenment to th() membf!rS of the House on that particular ;peshon .. I mtcnd to confine myself solely to Lf'at partwular phase of the question. You, i::ltr, have appealed to the members of the House for order on account of the gravity of i.he question im-oh·ed, and the leader of the Government appeals to the members of the House ~o lift their min.ds !o the importanc-e of the Issue. I rea!tse Its Importance and I thorou~hly agree with the sentime;,ts ex­pressed, ~oth by yourself and by the leader of the Government. \Ve should not treat

[211 r . .A ppel.

thi, ma.tter lightly. It is the mo't important· question that has eYer com-e IJefor~ mv notice during the whole of rnv time in · Parlia.­rnent. It is. a. question •vhich goes to th<' very .f?undahm! of the constitutional rights aucl !Ioertle, ot the people; 1t g-oes to the v0r,v ba.--1s of self-government, and to the wry basi' of the life of this Hcms,e-to ib ,. ery exist{)nce~heca:use if ·vve are to be dismissed without any just cause or reason­If we arc here merely on sufferance-then we might as well not be here at all. It seems to me that on this ground alone we should have a full debate on this very important question­that we should be faithless to ourselves if we did not place on record an emphatic condemna­tion of those who were instrumental in dis­missing the last Parliament and causing a needless election. It is of wider importance because 1t concerns not only the rights of members here and the rights and liberties of the people outside the House at the present day, but It also concerns the rights of men who are to c~)lne after. us, and the rights of unborn generations. It IS even wider than that, be­cause 1t affect:; the rights and liberties, to s,orne extent at least, of the people of other States of the Uommonwealth and of other States within the British Empire. Our last meetmg-the. da:y w?en . the majority of the House "as dismJssed-wiii become historical, on account of the circumstances of that dis­missal of Parliament, and on account of those who were instrumental in dismissing us, be­c~.use 1t will affect our futurB It has been sa.id by one cow,tJtntional authority that the ltfe a.nd soul of the British Constitution is precedent~ .. what our fathers did their children have a right to do again. And unless we place on record some censure against those who caused that needless election and dismissed P~rliament against the wish ~f a majority, it w1ll be rruoted as a precedent to justify similar occurrences on future occasions. "re have just returned from the most fiercely contested general electwn we have ever had in this State. There has been the greatest enthusiasm and the largest attendance at public meetings ever known, and the reason for that was tha.t the people believed that there had been a gross vjola.tion .of the fundamental principles of the Uonstttuhon-;-a g:ross infringement of the nghts a.nd ltberttes of the p€ople, and of the ng·hts of members of this House. Ha.vT!g been returned from the countrv bv f11e people who are so interest,ed in that matter

we shall be faithless to ourselve~ [9.30 p.m.] a.nd to the trust they have reposed

tn )lS unless we place on record nur condemn:1hon of tho~e. who caused tha.t ge.neral electwn, and the infrin o-ement of the r!f?hts and liberties of the people~ and do som€­tmng to prevent a. recurrence. of it. Some· members ma_r: t-reat this mattBr lightly, but it seems to me 1t IS a matter of the highest im· porta.nce and of tb€ greatest oonsequenoe to ourselves and others who come after us. I thmk 1t comes pronerly right at the com­mencem~nt of all . parliamentary legislation, because It IS m.oro .Important than all the par­lta.mentary lBQislatwn tbat can po.ssibly take plaoo this session.

Mr. _.JENKINSON: The people were asked to settle It.

?iir. HARDACR.E '· Very properly, at the ?r;emng of ;:,very Pa.rltarreent, the first proceed­I;Igs after the el:cbon of Speaker is to claim i ne undoubted ngh!s and privileges of this Honse: and .YOU, Sir. accornpa.nied bv other m<embers, go to His Excellency the Governor

Address in Repl.1f. [ 12 .:\lARCH.] Address 'in Reply. 115

on behalf of this House, claiming the un­doubt-e-d right'3 and pri\·ilege~ which have been granted to Parliament as heretofore. Now, .::301110 hon. n1ernbcrs may look upon that i:itanding Order as of ,mall impm tance, but it i3 of very great iu1portanc.P, a~ it surr1s up the whole of tlw provisions of our Standing Orders; it sums up whok volumes of history. It is not u~ele~'=-· ceren1ony, beca.u:;e there is con­tained in that practice. and reasseTted, the rights and liberties that haYe been y·{)ll for us bV our fDrefathers through centurie~ of long struggle a~·a.in.st kings and tyrant~ ,:-ho tried to withhold those rights from them. It is v orth while briefly refeTring to the matter. The rights and libeTties ':hich we <Jnjoy to-day have not he{'n easily \von. T'hl? ~truggle to get. them has be-en continued for something like five centuries of English history. It corn­rncneed i~r 121~1, when the La.rons of England, a.ided by the peopk', \Hung· from King John the great :\I agna Charta. It was continued nnder Charles I., when thi'' rea• 'erted prac· tically the ,am€ right .• in t.h<".Pc'tition of Rig-ht. It went on during the reign of J arnPs Il., until finally we thought we had a.ccomplish<Jd and fully .- .tabJi,hecl the rights 1'.·hich we enjoy under th€ Bill of R;g·ht' ""t the commencement of the reign of \Yilliam and :\Iary. It may b€ inte-TC:3ting- to sum up what ),fa.~aulay has Faid with regard to th<J long struggle for constitu­tional lib<Jrty. :\Iacaula.y say,., in referring· to the passage of th<J Bill of Rights-

Thus was accomplished tbe glorions revolution of 1868. . . . It finally decided the great question whether the J)Qpular clement, which harl ever ,:;;ince the age of Fitzwalter and De 1Hontfort b€en found in Eng­lish polity, should be drstroycd hy the monarchical element, or shonld be suffered to deYelop itself freely and become dominant. rrhe struggle between these two principles had been long and douhtful. It h:td produced ~editions, hnpea<'hments, rebellions, sieges, _prescrip­tions, judicial ma~sacres. SoJnetilllf-S liberty, some­times Hoynlty, had seemed to be on the _point of peril:;hing.

\Ye thought that we had finally <Jstablish<Jd those rights. and that in these piping times of constitutional peac" ther<J was not th<J slightest likelihood of a recurr<Jnce of a struggl<J with th€ repr<'sentativ<J of monarchy, and particu­larly th<J representative of our own monarchy; but sudd<Jnly and unexpectedly we ar" practi­ca.lly thrown back a century to th€ struggle £or the rights that W€ thoug-ht wem so firmly <Jstablish<Jd that thm€ was not th<J slightest danger of their being tak<Jn from us.

i\lr. JE)!KIXSON; You do not be!i<Jve it.

Mr. HARDACRE; I do b<JliBve it. What is the good of you, i\lr. 8p€aker, going to the Governor and claiming th<J rights and privi­leges of this Hous€, if by a mere capric€ of His Excellencv- as it was on this occasion-h€ can dismiss tl!is House without any just cause <>r rea-on. \\ny, wo would havD nn rights at a.!! if we could be dismiss<Jd without any causo or r<Jason, so long as thme is nothing to !<Jad us t.o. be!i<Jve that we hav<J c<Jased to represent the p€opl€. The people ·S<Jnt us h<Jro for thre€ y<Jars, and there is no power that can constitu­tionallv or rightfullv dismiss us whilst we re­present them. 'Cnl,;:ss thBre is some just came to show that we no longer repr<Jsent th<Jm, we have a right to· continue h<Jr€, and exercis€ our voice and legislation against any power in the community.

)Ir. JENKI)!SON: You W<Jr€ not dismissed­you uuauirr1ously a.grced to · · throw up the ·"pongc.·'

Mr. HARD ACRE: I shall d~al with that later on. It is needless for me to add that I

am o-enerallv in svmpathy with the main por­tion "of the 1~esolution contained in the Address in Heply. I will not say I am in entire accord with the details of it; I think the wording of it is not good; and, in son1e details, i~ is n?t justifiable; but, on the whole, I am ent1rely m accord with the obj<·ds of it, and I intend to try and show reasons why there is a necessity for some resolution of that kind, in order to prevent a recurrence of the dismiss~! o~ Par­liament in such a gross and un]usttfiable manner. I think there is a good deal to be ,.aiel for the request of the Premier at the com­moncPment of his address last night in asking us to lift this matter above personal considera­tions. I intend to lift it as far as I can above personal considerations, and, if possibl€, above party considerations. It is _just possible I shall h"ve something to say whwh nmth<Jr the Op­positioll, uor the Govf_rnn1ellt, nor the men1ber:-> of my own party will lilw; but it seer_ns to me that, in a case lik€ this, the prop<Jr thmg to do is not to care who agrees with one. The right thing is to get at the true £_acts of the case, a!'d show to what extent our nghts have been vw. lated and to tTv and r<Jassert th<Jm once mor€. On t{vo important matters I do not agree with th€ Government. I want to ':w hm€ that I tak<J this stand-first. because I think th<J prop<Jr thing to do is that it is absolut<J!y nec<Jssary in the first instance to de'·troy before on€ can build up, in order that we may set our rights an a correct and just basis. I do not know who is the constitutional 11dviser of th<J Opposi­tion, but I must ·say that, whoev<>r is the con­stitutional advi::-er, hf' is a.n cxcef'dirtgly bad advi'3-Pr.

Mr. \Y. H. BARXES: That is your opinion.

:llr. HARD ACRE: Yes; it is my opinion, and we have b<Jen asked to <Jxpress our opinion.

"-Ir. JEXKINSON interjected.

J'>Ir·. HARDO\CRE: I have no doubt the hon. member for Fassifern will agree with a lot I say afterwanls.

:ilr. JENKINSON: I will agree with a lot you say if you say it quickly and let us get home.

JHr. HARD ACRE: I could not say it as quickly as the hon. member did the other night.

?>Ir. JBXKINSO!'i: No; I know you could not.

1ir. HARD ACHE: What was the cause of the crisis-~ what was the cause of the trouble?

:i\1r. J EXKINSON: You didn't agree.

Mr. H_\.RDACRE: The first commencement of the crisis was due to the unconstitutional action of the Government in asking the Go­vernor to-~

Mr. CoUIPBELL: Do an impossible thing.

Mr. HAHDACRE: X o; to exercise-~ .iifr. PACET: To pack the upper House.

Mr. HARD ACRE: To exorcise his prero!Sa­ti ve in the direction of what is called creabng new peers, which is in this ca?e sw~m]'ling thG l:pper House, wtthout suffiment. JUsbficabon for the exercise of that prerogative.

?>1r. \Y. H. R4.RNES: That is rather a serious indictment from a supporter of the Govern­ment.

:\Jr. IIARDACRE: I am not a supporter of the Gov<Jrnment. I am an independ<Jnt member of thio House. \Yhen I acldr<",ocd _my constituents I distinctly took up that posrbon, that I would neither support th€ C.:overnm<Jnt

Mr. Hardacre.]

116 Address in Reply. [ASSEMBLY.] Address ·in Reply.

nor tho Opposition, and, outside the Labour platform, I would act as an independent per­SOIL I said that I was not satisfied with either the Opposition or the Government, and I would try to get a better Government than either of them. The first migination of the constitutional trouble was the Premier's re­quest to the Governor to exercise what is a constitutional power, but on an occasion when there was not sufficient justification to exercise it. The Premier last night, and on other occasions, has justified his actions by re·ference to precedents at the time of the Reform Bill. Let me first of all state briefly what are the Yariou" branches of the Constitution, and what are the powers that each of those branches exercise. The British Constitution is made up of the Crown, Lords, and Commons, and at:alogous to that in the case of Queensland would be the Governor, the Legislative Council, and the Legislative Assembly. Each of those branches of the Legislature, have their own special powers and functions. The Crown has the right of initiative and ratification. The I.ords has the right of initiation, amendmen~, and veto. The Commons has placed upon 1t the functions of administering the departments of the State and of initiating and passing legis­lation. Each of these branches has separate powers and separate weapons of protec~ion aiTainst the others. The Crown has the, nght of dismissing the Commons-the absolute right of dismissing the' Commons. The. Lords has the right of vetoing any legislation passed by the Assembly, and the Assembly has the right of granting {)f 1·efus.iug· t)uppl,Y, a.nU. the Crown and Connnon.s together ha.Ye a weapon of pro­t<ection aga.inst the Lord, in casek of extreme urgency-in grave ca~e,,, __ ,vhen th{'y have a \\E'ap<m to enabl<e th<'m to create sufficient new peer& to compel the legi.olation to proceed. That. undoubtedly, is the principle· of t·he Britioh Const.itution. and the Premier rewrtecl to the exercise of that particular power. He appeal' to the pr<>ced<>nt of th·o, time of the RP­form Bill. in 1832, when Earl Gr<ey and Lord Brougham, after failing to get pass-ed throu_gh the House of Lords the Reform Bill, which aftPrwards became the Reform Act of 1832. ap­pealed to the King to put into force this parti­cular power. I admit at once that the power exists. but I sa v it should not be exercised on all occasions, and 'the circumstances which justified its exercise in England on that occasion did not warrant resorting to it in this particular case when he asked His Excellency to use it. The Reform Bill of 1832 was a measure which had been struggled for for something like fifteen months. Intervening between the. first defeat of the mea,ure by the Lords and the second attempt to defeat by means of amending it, there had been a general election. I would like to read an extract from Collier's " British History" on that matter as it pictures the circumstances of that time. It sa.ys-

For fHteen months the struggle went on. Great riot~ took plar<J in Bristol, J\ottingham, and Derby. A_t, one time, indeed, the llill ~eemecl in peril of being lost. The Oppositwn in the Lords grew· RO strong that Enrl Grey resigned, and the Dnke of 1Vellington was called upon to form a ::.uini:;;try. Rut this he failed to do ; the current or pnblie opinion turned H.ercely against him, and the conquerer of \.Vaterloo was obliged to fortify his house against a London mob.

'The circumstances were entirelv different at that time to what we have hac! o,; this occasion. ·what did we have on this occasion? \Ve had two amendments in two rather unimportant­comparatJively unimportant-measures which had been passed by this Assembly. There was the Elections Act. in which the Council pro-

[ Mr. H ardacre.

posed an amendment with.regard to the !lostal Yote. and there was thD \\ ag·es Board• lhll, m which they proposed an amendment agai_nst the extension of its provisions to the farmmg Jistrict.s.

Nlr. Bow~IA;>;: On two occasions.

C\Ir. HARD ACRE: It do<>s not matter if there were half a dozen occasions. That does not warrant the calling into requisition or the exercise of the power of creating peers which constitutional authorities have laid down should only be exercised in the gravest of cir­cumstance,, Let me refer to the Reform Bill precPdent onve more. Hearn, in his "Gov8l·n­rnent of England," point,, out th:tt both Earl Grey and Lord Brougham at that time asked for its use, and Lord Brougham afterwards disriuctly stated that if he had been successful, and if the Ho<.lsc of Lords had still insisted on making a substantial amendment in the Re­form Bill of 1832, or even if they had defeated that Bill, Earl Grey would have, in all pro­bability, refused to exercise the power which they had got the King's consent to exercise. They would rather have risked all the trouble and tm-moil which might have taken place than haYe adopted such an unusual course as the creation of peers to swamp the House of Lords. I should like to show how great con­stitutional authorities view this qupstion. Mr. 'Taswcll Langmcad says-

In its practic:tl aspect an extraorUinary creation of peers is to thH House of Lords what a dissolution is to the House of Commons. AnU althongh ~uch a creation ought never to be maUe use of except in tlle greatest emergency, its use in such an emergency is not only constitut,ional but essential to tbe safetY of the Consti-tution itself. ·

Sir Erskine ::\Iay soys-The creatiou or peers by the Crown on extraordinary

occasions is the only e<1uivalent which the Constitution has provided foT the change and renoYation of the House of Lords. ~uch a me:-umre, shoultl the emergency be such as to demand it, cannot be pronounced as unconstitutional.

But in another place he says-It should only be :resorted to in cases of grave and

perilous necessity.

Speaking now on purely constitutional grounds, and not from any personal point of view, I think the Premier was entirely wrong in calling into requi.~ition Ruch an extreme constitutional power on such a comparatively small occasion.

A LABOUR ::\IE}[JlER : And yet you say we ought to fight that House.

Mr. H.AH,DACRE: Yes, I say we ought to fight for its abolition, and holding that view, I am of opinion that it is about time that we made a protest against the continuous appointments which are made to the Council. During the time he has been in office, the Premier has made something like eighteen appointments to the Upper Hnu'le. He made one appointment this session. The effect of these continuous appoint­ment.• is to strengthen rather than to weaken the Upper Hou~e, and to make it more difficult to secure its abolition. According to history the present prestige and enormous influence of the House of Lords has been brought about by the same kind of thing as is happening in this SLate-a constant increase in the number uf ap­pointments to the House. At one time the House of Lords consisted of only fifty-four mem­bers.

The PREmER: And it was just as strong then as it is now.

Address in Reply. [12 MARCH.] Adcl1•ess in Reply. 117

Mr. HARD ACRE: No; that is not so. At the time of the \Vars of the Roses, when the number of members was tifty.four, the House of Lords httrl practically no influence on the des­tinies of Great Britain, but by the constant addi­tions which were made to it, until it has now something like ;lOO or 400 members, it has become an enormous power in the land, and a block to progressive legiH!ation. If we go on increasing the number of members in the Legislative Council, we shall in time have not 50 but 100 n1embers, for if one Governn1ent appoints Inetn­bers thnn succeeding Governments will do the same, and the number will be increased indefi­nitely, and the power of the House made stronger.

The PREMIER: That might increase the num­ber of members, but it will not increase the strength of the House.

Mr. HARDACRE: Yes, it will. Every addi­tional member appointed to that House, no matter how good he may be, will make it more difficult to abolish the Chamber. The moment a man gets into that House he will use his influence to maintain its prestige and preserve its existence. At the commencement of this trouble the Premier a"ked the Labour party for their assistance, and the Labour party promised him assistance, provided that it wa' given with a Yiew to the ultimate itbolition of the Council. The Labour parly, in putting that proviso into their reply, took up a perfectly consistent tmd constitutional position.

Mr. BO\nrAl'i: Then what are you growling about?

Mr. HARDACR~~: I am making- these re­marks because the PretHier did not do what he was doing with a view to aboli,hing the C<mncil. He asked for power to ''stuff" the Upper House,

The PRE:IIIER : The Premier drd nothing of the kind.

l\Ir. HARD ACRE: The Premier asked for power t•> appoint ac\ditional members on account of the obstruction in the Council.

The PREl!IER: No. \Vhat was asked for was, not the power to itppoint members, but the public recognition that the power was there, and that had no reference to the Bills then before the House. It was a neces:, try preliminary to the passage of the Constitutional Referendum Bili which was an ebsential thing. '

Mr. HARDACRE: That question never came up.

The PRE}IIER: Thitt wv.s the reason gh·en for the advice.

Mr. HARD ACRE: The questions which came up were the Elections Act Amendment Bill and the \V ages Boards Bill.

The PHE}!IEK : I am telling you now the reason given for the advice.

Mr. HATIDACRE: \\Tell, it is new to this House.

Mr. BARBEH: Nu, it is not.

Mr. HAHDAURE: In the memorial which was presented tn thP. Governor, it was alleged thitt the reitson was the continual obstruction by the Upper House of measures passed by this Charr,ber.

The PREMIER: And the method of removing that obstruction.

Mr. HARDACRE: The method of removing that obstructhm was to pass a Constitutional

Referendum Bill; and, until that measure was defeated, the power to appoint

[10 p.m.] itdditional membets to the Council should not have been called into

requisition. If the power to do that was recng­niserl, then the Governor 1nust take the nt:.,xt step, and appocnt new members. I say we ought to protest against these continuous appoint1nent~, unleRs they are made with the view of ulti­mately abolishing the Legislative Council. The Governor was right, in rt'fusing Ruch an extrmne request; and the Premier has, I think, him,elf admiaed that the Gcwernor's action in that matter was thoroughly constitutional. It was aher the Premier resigned, and the leader of the Oppo;ition was called to offico, that all the encroachments on the right< and privileges of this House took place. There is une <>ther matter on which I differ with the action of the Government-that is, in connection with the last part of the Addre,;s in B.eply. The first part of the Address is perfectly right; but the passage to which I allude is entirely untenable. Tt says-

That, while we recognise the extensive powers of the Royal prero7ative with which Your Excellency is vested, we )·et maitJtain that constitutional pr::~ctice require-s that those pov.·ers slwuld be exercised by surh persons and in S1H'h manner as may be acceptable to a majority of this Honse.

I do not think that is w ,i) worded, and it is the weak spot in the Address in Reply. It is claiming- what cannot be substantiated. It is no U~f'l trying to deceive ourselves, because, if we deceive ourselves, we shall not be able to deceive the Imperial constitutional authorities. That passage says thitt the prerogati,,e of His ExcPi, lency should always be exercised in a way accept­able to t\w majority of this Houoe. That is not true. Ordinarily speaking, it is true. l\Iost of the prerogatives of His Excellency a1e exercised in accordance with the wishes of the l\linht,rs for th<e time being. :Bnt the important thing is thitt the prerogative in question is the preroga­tive of dis..;olution. rrhat prerogative the Gn~ vernor has a constitutional right to exerci.:;:e against the \Vishes of any :1\lir~istry. and even against the wishes of the majority of this House; and eYen, in extren1e c '~es, against the wish of the whole of Pttrliament. At the commencement of his speech last night the Premier admitted that Hts Excellencv could dismiss Parliament in spite of the Mimst;y and in spice of the majority of this House.

Mr. GHAKT: That is the legal position, but it is not the constitutional position

Mr. HARDACRE: That is his constitutional power. The Address in Reply in that res!>ECt sets up a claim which cannoG be substantiated, and U;;L&e~ up!>ll that cla1n1 the ce11sure involved in that portion of the Address. The prerogative referred to i::; Lhat of diR::il)lution. because all our grievance and all onr di<conteu't is because His Excellency exerC'is~d his prerogative and dismis­sed this House unconstitntiormlly. But he did not exercise his prerogative unconstitutionally because he exercised i G again~t the wi3h of a majority of this House ; <>nd, if that g-oes to tbe Imperial anthoritie> as tLe reason upon which we base our censure, they will at once reply to the ::\Iinistry, "You are clai1ning something which does nut exi'3t. You are baRing- your Cfn:sure upon an entirely wrong foundation, and you are out of court.:'

Mr. GRA,>T: It is a fair enough claim that the Governor should act on ad vice.

:!\lr. HARD ACRE: Om censure should be based upon such correct !Jrinciples tbat it will

Mr. Hardacre.l

118 Address in Reply. [ASSE~IBLY.] Address w Reply.

ha\'e effect if it io pas"efl. But, if we pass it in this form, the ImJkrial authorities will tell us that tbe Governor did not do wrong- according to the claim we make. They will tell ne, "He did right ~n far as yt_,llr C'laim is concernt:"d, and you are basing your censnre npon something which you (',mnot suJ_,st}lntiate."

i\Ir. :\IANN: That was the doctrine for which King Charles I. lost his head.

:\Ir. HARTlACRE: There is one suprEme CIHlt-:ltiLutional authority HO far a~ the Britil'3h depend~ncies are c ~ncurned-Todd':-:i "Constitn¥ tiunal G(:vetnmenL in the British Colonie~."

::\Ir. GHA'>T: Xo.

i\Ir. HARDACRE : Sir Erekine :\Tay is supreme so far a-; Great Britain is concerned, Profe~sur Freeman is probaUly a. greater authority than Sir l~rskine :\Iay; but, so far as the British dependencies are concern en, "Todd" is practically the sole authority to-day. This is what be '·'·YS-

The po~ition of Governor in self-governing eolonif.;; is very anHlog-ous to tllat of His -:\lajesty in thi~ country. The bnsinesR of governing i:' done by the :\Iinisters, and it is only in extrenu~ el{_scs wht-ot e a Governor may disrnis::, his ~Iinistors (<.;:ubject to the cont1 ol of Pm·lia­ment), or cases where Imperial rights are involved, and perhaps in the prerogative of mercy, that the Goyernor can act indeptndentl_y of his 3-Iinisters.

~i\.ccording to "Todd," we are laying our censure on an entirely wrong basis. There is abundant justification for our censure, or whatever we may like to call it, without basing it upon false grounds. Here is another ex ~ract-

If in the qnt:Stion at issue between the SrJvereign and his )Iinisters, those Ministers are snstained by n,

majority in the Commons House of Parliament or are in the enjo:nnent of the confidence of that House upon their general policy, it is still open to the Crown to appeal to the country.

And, as a security against Arbitrary or unrea.sonable action on the p;nt (lf the .Sovereign, it is needtnl that a new Administration should first be formed who are willing to RSSl:lllE~ responsibility for the aetion of the Crown in the:: di:o;mis:.;al or resi~nation of their pt·e­decessors, and for any consPquent appeal to the con­stituencies. And, fnrthermore. that there should be reasonable ground for beliPving that, upon the question involved in the change of Admini::-:tration, the existing House of Commons doe8 not correctly exvress the opinions and whhes of the nation.

Again-A cnnstitntional Governor is personally res:pon~ible to

tlle Crown for his exercise of the lH'bl'Ogative of dissolv­ing Parlin,mrnt, and he is bound to have regard to the general welfare of the country, and not merely to the ad \Tice of his ~1inisters, in granting a dis:solution. Should he deem it advt"::tblc to insist upon the diSlsolu­tion of an existn1g Parliament, contrarY to the advice of his )lini.'i.ters, he is not debnrred from~ tnkinP," steps to his {lecision bf'cause llb .:\1inisten: for the time lwin~ are SU!"tained by a mnjoritr in the local AssemblY. . . . . 13nt no Governor has a constitutional rigl1t to proceed to dissolve Parliament nnder snch ciTcnm­stanees unless he can first ohtain the "'wvices of other 3-Iinisters, wllo are wllling to become responsible fo1· tlle act. and unles;s he has reasonable gronnd:-: for believing ::j.hat an appeaJ to the cnn~t i.tuencies would result in an approval by tlle new Assembly of the poliCJ' whi~h. in hi~ jndgment, rendered it ne~essary tllat a dissolution of Parliament should take place.

Then ag>tin be says-There is, indeed, one great and critical act the

l'esponsibility for which falls momentarily or personally on the Sovert>ign. It is the dismi-ssal of an existing }Iinhtry and the appointment of a new one. rncon­ditionally entltled to dismiss the )Iinisters, 1he Sovereign can, of course, chnose bis own opportunity. He may defy Parliament if he can count upon the people.

~Ir. KEN:< A: That is just the point.

[Jf r. H ardacre.

::\Ir. HAHDACRE : Of course it is. and I am trying to show what the point is. I ~'U:V there is abundant gronnd to lay blame and censure with­out taking up false grounds, and I am pointing out where the false ground is. I say that not­withstanding the majmity of this House, or not­withstanding- the :\Iinistry, the Governor has the constitutional power of dismissing Parlia. ment It was lair! rlown first of all in 1784, when the King c 1l1ed to his counsel> \Villiam Pitt a~ainst a large and hoetile majority of the I-Iouse of Comn1rms.

l\Ir. KE'i'>A: The circumstances are different.

Mr. HARD ACRE: The circumstances are different, I af!mit, but they are not different in this ".cy: That the precedent laid down then has been accepted as the basis of this particular power, It is laid down in Dicey's "The Lew of the Constitution" tbat that is the precedent wbicb substantiates this power up even to this very time. At that time the King called in to advise him \Yilliam l'itt against a hostile majority, and for the fi1 st time in constitutional history be gave a minority tbe right of flissolu­tion against a. majority. The result was that the constituencies seut Pitt b'ck with an overwhelm­ing majority, and that did in fact justify the precedent, because o;-er and above the House of Comn1ons there i~ recognised the greater autho~ rity of the Briti'h put•lic. There was another case in 1834, when something like the reverse hap­pened. It was at the time of the Reform Bill. The minority :'\finistry getting the disoolntion was returned with a rniuority, and "Todd" haH also referred to the precedent even as recent as 1877, when the Governor of South Australia r!ismissed Parliament against a resolution of remonstrance carried bv hoth Houses of Parliament. The ground for our rernon"trance is not that the Governor had not the constitutional power, but is on entirely different grounds. l'\ow, just one other matter. The question is, Can a Go­vernor dismiss a Parliament against a majority of the represeutativfs without Supply being ob­tained? I say, again, that in extraordinary cir­cumstances he can do so, but the circnrnstances mnst be very extraordinar)'. Tbere have been some celebrated precedents quoted which had their origin in X ew South Wales between 1872 and 1877. There was a series of political crises, and each particular Government asked Sir Hercnles RnhinsrJn, who was Gm:ernor at the tirnP, for a dissolution. In every casP, I believe, Sir Hercules Robinson refmed a dissolution until first of all Supply har1 been !(routed. Finally, in order to settle tlw matter, it was referred to the Imperial authoriti~-:-:, and they referred it to Sir Ero'kine May and }Ir. Spe•ker Branfl. l'\ow it is laid down there that a Governor can grant a dissolution withnnt conditions He ctn, there· fore, grar.t it withr,ut getting Supply; >O that on both tbe grounds-that Parliament cannot be di.~~-,olved when there it-1 a majority against it, and that it cannot be disoolvefl without Supply being granted-the case cannot be substantiated so far as the constitutional authorities are con· cerned, and it CELnrwt be said that His Excel­lency exceened the power imposed upon him under the Comtitution. I have ,aid already that there is no reason for taking up wrong grounds when there is abundant f!ood ground to justify the intention of this House. It is not a question of power or acting within the limits of the Constitution. 'l'be question is the manner of the exercise of the poweL The question is whether the Governor exercised the J>OWer in such a manner as was justified under the circumstances. An analogy is t be case of a policeman who is armed with a baton, and has

Address in Reply. [12 }fARCR.] Address tn Reply. 119

authority to use it. The question whether he was right or wrong in uRing it depend-; upon the par­ticular circumstances under which he u:.;ed it, and upon whom he used it. If he used it in self­defence, or undPr reasonable circun1~tancE'~. then he i.s right in using the power with which. he is armed. On the other hand, if he uses it neecl­le"'sly, without juBt ca.11Se-·arhitrariiy, and with caprice-he would be rightly censured for having exercised a power which he had a right to exer­cise, but which was exereised wrongly under the circumstanceR. There has been h>id down a number of rules for guidance. The first rule laid down i.s thnt the power of dissolution must he exercised wich great care and caution, and forbearance. It must not be used un. necessarily. It i-; a weapon given for the protection of the Crown, and its frequent exercise leads to the inevitable blunting of that great weapon for the protection uf the Crown. In this caee there is good ground for passing some kind of protest, because it is easy to show thM. there was no caution exercised. Another rule laid down is that it must not be exercised at an inconvenient time. On this occa.sion it was exerciRed at. a nwst inconvenient tin1e, and at ~t cost to the country of £20,000 or £25,000; and it stopped public works from being proceeded with which would have given employment to large numbers of people. '' Todd '' mentions the case of Quebec, where a J\Iiui><try was defe<tted .and a new Ministry was formed under somewhat similar conditiont~ to ours. The Governor was asked for a dissolution, and he said that a disso­lution at that p<trticular time would give rise to :prolonge:.i agitation, anri that it would mean a loss of something like 100,000 dollars. He added that, ag there was no reason tJ believe there would be any healthy result from a general election, he must refuse the reouest. Another rule is that a dissolution must neqir be gronted if it can pos­sibly be avoirlPd. Every effnrt must be made to avoid a dissolution, heco,use, at the least, it means a gre~t loss of time, trouble, and money to the people. That redson applied on this occa­sion. \Ve were only six nwnt.hs from a general €lection; there was no reason to believe that Po,rliament had ceased to represent the people, or to suppose. that the result of a new election would be different from what it was six months before ; but no attempt was made to o,vnid a dis­solution. Premier Kidston had r"signed, and Premier Philp had been defeated. \Vhen the Premier resi'!ned the occasion had gone for a dissolution. I would like to mention here that we had two reasom given for the dissolution. The first was gi.-en by the leo,der of the Opposi­tion }ast night, who said his advice was that there could be no good go.-ermnent under the ·existing state of parties in the AssemblY. Then we had this remarkable other reason given by the -Governor himself: That it was to settle the consti­tutionalf)nesticm ntised by the late Premier. Here we ha,ve His Excellency's responsible adviger~ giving one n~aRon for the dis~o}utinn, and His Excellenc.v hitnself giving another. There may be an explanation of this. It is f)nite possible that the adviKers rnay have given that advice on those grounds only, anrl that His Excellency may have granter! the disRolution on entirely different grounds. But the Rtrange thing abou.t it is that be proc~eded in a n1ost unconstitutional way­not on the ad vice of his existing Ministers but on the advice of his defeated MinisterR. But neither of those rea.sons is justifiable. If it was impossible to form a good Gm·ernment in the existing Htate of parties there was no justifica­tion for Mr. Philp to carry on. He should have .gone at once to the Governor and ad vi sed a. dissolution. Instearl of doing so, he came to the House and tried to carry on. If he had

been aiiowed to carry nn, the que~tion of good govt>rrnnent would have bf:'-n of no conse­quence; he w•mld ha,·e c1rried on anyhow, and thPre would h:::tve been no con~titntional iJUestion raised at all. But, as he C)nld not carry on, the con.-;titutiorn~.>l is:3ue \\--a/3. raised. In my opinion, both those r,:>asons wen~ simplv second thnughts or aher 'huug-ht~. Tnere is another rule laid d.,wn. \Vhila Hi,; Excellency can g-rant a diHsolution a!;!a.inHt a ruajority of the Houf-le under extre·rne circumRULnC'ei·, it e:an only be grantl:-'d on certain condi! iuns. The provi!.-lo is that His Excellency mnst ho,ve reasonable grounds for exp.cting that the reRult of the election will be such as to justify his action, ann be acceptable to his new i\linisters. In this ease the re!_·ntlt of the ge-neral elt->ctiun wa::; not such as to justify His }1~xcellency's acti,•n, anrl brought about the dcfeo.t of hi,; ne.v 1\lini,try, I Hay there was no justification, so far as His Excellencv v-a~-; concerned, on those grounds.

· As we had only just come from the [10.30 p.m.] country, there was no reasonable

prospect of any different result frotn a general election. Every rnetnber knew that his constituencv was not likely to change it-; opinions in six rnCmths, and the anticipations of the majority of members have been justified by the reeult of the election", "'" practically the same House has been sent back. His Excellency had no reason for believing that the result of the election would justify his action and the advice of his ::\Iinisters. Then there is another reason given-namely, tho,t whilst His Excellency has the power of dissolving Parliament without Supply, yet. it must only be dune in tbe most extreme case. The substance of the reason is that to dismies Parliament without Supply being granted is so seriouti that every effort shonld be made to avoid Ruch a contingency. One of the rules laid down by "Tc.cld" is that the duty of the Governor of a dependency is to obey the law, and to see thrrt it is not evaded by his responsible ::Vlinisters, .It goes on t•' say that so strict are the Impenal authoritif's on this n1attPr that in one caRP­that of Governor Darling, of Victoria, in 1865-the Governor was actually recalled for departing from the strict adherence to law in the matter of spending public moneys without the sanction of an Appropriation Act. "Tndd" is the su­preme text book on constitutional principles. It must have been in the library of His Excel­lency, and he must have read those rules and seen that warrant; yet, in spite of all that, we have an almost unique case of dissolution again~t nearly every one of those rules which are laid down. Then there is one other rule; that is that a Governcr should not in any wety even appear to act as a parti<an. The first duty ot a Gnvprnnr is to he free from the ap!Jear­ance of political bias. I will not eay that there was any political bias, but there were the o,ppearance'l of it.. Unfortunately, it gave rise to adverse connnent, aR it put Hi" Excellency in the minds uf many people m the position of tak­ing side-. One of the first duties laid down by constitutional law is that a GoH•rnor shall avoid even the appeaT'ance of favouring one party againRt another, anrl that is a reason why His Excellency should have refrained from granting dissolution until every effort had been made to "void it. Even if he could not have rec~lled the late Premier, nor h<we .:\Ir. Philp in office, he httd the alterno,tive of sending for JYir. Bowman, and if after resorting to these means he had faild, there would have bee.n sume justi­fiable excuse in granting a dissnlution, notwith­standing "11 the trouble caused by a general eleccion. There is jnst one other rule. It is laid down by "Freeman" that it is almost impossible

Mr. Hardacre.]

120 Address in Repl,y. [ASSEMBLY.] Address in Reply.

under our Constitution to maintain in office a Mini,try r1Pfeated by Pn,rliament, and he shows that a Minic;try having been defeated and remaining in office violated the Constitution. \Ye had this rarticular instance last session. \Ye had the Ministry which was defeated at two previous elections; and we also then had the same j\linistry, not with the same pet·"onnel, but with the same head--

Hon. R. PHILP: Xo.

Mr. HARDACHE: Defeatecl in this House on five occasions.

Hon. R. PH ILl': :;'\ o ; only defeated twice before that.

1\Ir. HARDACRE: There were two elections. There was the 1904 election.

Hon. R. PHILP: Sir Arthur Hutledge was at the bead.

Mr. HARD ACRE : I admit that there was a slight alteration; but the same Government was defeated on five occasions. Yet in spite of these defeats, and the rules I h:we mentioned, that when a Ministry is defeated it is against the spirit of the Constitution for it to remain in office, we had that Ministry retained in office for a considerable time. It was a minority Govern­ment, against the wishes of the msjority of this House, and it has been proved to be against the majority of the electors of this State.

Hon. R. PHI LP: It has often been done.

Mr. HARD ACRE: It has often been done, but it i;; an evil thing, and it should not be done a rnomPnt longer than it can be prevented. The principle which should have actuated not only Premier Philp, but also His Excellency, the moment these defeats occurred in the House, was not to g<' further with the dissolution, but make the best of the circumstances and en­deavour to form another Mini,try, either out of 1\ir. Kids ton\; party, or the existing personnel of this House. \Vhil;;t I do not quite agree with the details of the Addresil in Reply, which un­fortunately, I th,nk, builds the claim on a wrong ba;;is, there are ample grounds for the protest which is made. Practically, although he may have strictly exercised the power of the pre­rogative, and dissolution was within the strict letter of the constitutional rights and powers, still every rule or precedent laid rlown for his guidance by constitutional authorities was vio­lated, and in my opinion we had one of the grossest violations of the spirit of the Constitut.ion that has ever been witnE'SSt>d in any ScatP of Australia, or in any British dependency, for many years past. I s~y this: That under these circumst:tnces we are doing the right thing to protest, ~tnd tc' protest as strongly as possible. There was one other case which occurred sornething like this in ~~ ew South \Vales in 1882 at the time of the Martin­Robertson Government. A Ministry was formed in 1882 and it was immedi:ttely defeated. The Ministry then asked fnr and obtained a dis­solution. A majority of the membera of the House did something similar to what we rlid here, passed a resolution of protest-sent a memorial to His Excellency the Governor of New South \Vales asking him to refrain from granting a dissolution. Just this slight differ· ence occurred : Bdore the memorial got to His Excellency the drssolution was granted. That case was similar to the case here to this extent: That the defeated :Ministry got a dissolution against the majority of the Houso in X ew South '\Vales, and they got it also without Supply having been granted. 'I'he result of the general

[Mr. H ardacre.

election was an overwhelming majority against the Ministry which got the dissolution under those circumstances. The defeated IYiinistry resigned three days before Parliament met, and the new Administration did practically what we are now doing. They placed on record a \'ote of emphatic condemnation and censure of the action of the outgoing Ministry for the way they acted. \V e have good grounds for doing the same thing here. \Ye know it is absolutely necessary to emphasise the wishes of the people of this State, and to express their indignation at being put to BLlCh needless cost and troublea.nd neeuless expense to the StatP, when the thmg could ha,·e been avo;ded with a little di,cre­tion which ought to have been exercised. Un­les• we do something of the kind here we· shall be faithless to the trust reposed in us, and we shall be unworthy of the best traditions of our race.

Mr. SOMERSET (Stanlcp): Although the bnn. member for Albert amicipated me some­what in the remarks he made with regard to irrigation, I still deplore the absence of any reference in the Governor'3 Speech to the ques­tion of water conserv:ttion. This I know t.o he not only necessary to the west of the Main, Range, but quite as necessary in the coastal area,. E1·en recently, while most of the \Vest Moreton district has benefited by the recent abundant rains, there are two places that I know of-Mount \Valker and Glamorgan Vale-where the people are suffering from the want of a ,vater supply. I entirely agTee with what the hon. member for Albert said on immigration and the reasons which he gave with regard to the defence of our shores, and also giving our white brethren in the old country and in Europe a chanco by coming out here. I think that the Labunr members, perhaps unthinkingly, but all the same selfishly, are drn~'ing these people such chance by cowing. I think that immigration and waV--r con~crvation rnight to a great extent go band in hand, because water­comervation will certainly provirle employment for a number t'f people. 1 have previously invited any members of the Gnvernment who cho•e to avail themselves of such invitation to visit the Stanley River for the purpo~e of ocular demon­stration, which I am 'lUe would prove to them -as it b"s ptoved to the eminent American engineer, ::'.lr. Hazen-the adaptability of a site on that river for wa,ter con~ervatinn, and aleo­comhining with the water con::;ervation schen1e a. scheme for flood prevention. I sm ~dad to renew the invitation to members of the Government, and would willing-ly convey them to the site I men­tion. I believe that I am debarred from making anv reference to the constitutional question, or" rather to statements which have been made in this Home with reg·ard to that question. I may say that neither His J~xcellency the Governor nor the then Premier were at that time-Decem­ber last-aware of the interpretation given only to-day by the leader of the Labour party of the contemptnou~, and, to my mind, insulting reply to the then Premier's letter to himself. Speak­ing for myself, I thought that an agreement between those two parties was an impossibility; but guile J.H'evailed, and the Labc.ur party were roped in by the msignation of the Government and the consequent fear of a dissolution. I beard no murmur outside rr the constitutional question at that time; but it was very evident that mem­bers were loth to go to the country; an<l I look on that memorial which was sent to His Excellency the Governor as-in fact, it rc<J.d to me like-an abject appeal to prevent what was a natural "onsequence. I do not admit, as my leader ha& done, that the voice of the electors :tt the recent

Add?·ess in Repl,y, [13 MARCH.]

elections declared against the postal ,·ote or for the inclusion of the farmers in the ·wages Board Bill.

Mr. CowAP: What did they declare against?

Mr. SOMERSET: I shall certainly not vote for the abolition of the postal vote, nor for the inclusion of the farmers in the \V ages Boards Bill. I consider that the voice of the electors on this occasion was merely an organised vuice largely obtained by unfair play in the way of interruption at public meetings as against the voice of electors not so well organised.

The SECRE'r.un ~'OR RAILWAYS: \Vhere was your organisation ?

Mr. SO~IERSET: I had no trouble myself. After all, unless every elector votee, neither part.y nor question is absolutely decided. And popular decision does not necessarily mean the correct one when all is said and done. The lay popular yoice is not competent to decide a constitutional question. If my memory serves me correctly, the Premier, or if not the Premier the inspired Press. at one time denied that he had asked for power to "stuff" the Council. In answer to that statement I would point out that at page 72 of Hcmsard, K o. 2, for the 11th l'viarch, the Premier admitted having asked fnr that power. I have no desire to detain the House any longer, as I believe hon. members wish to adjourn, and I shall only add that I regret all the references which have been made to His J~xcellency, which I think were unnecessary.

Mr. l'viAUGHA~ (Ipswich): I beg to move the adjournment of the debate.

'rhe PREMIER: I would like hon. members to finish the debate this evening if they are at all willing, as I desire to make progress with the business at the beginning of next week.

Ho:-;mmAnLE MEMBER" : To-night!

The PREMIER: If there is an understanding that we finish the debate to-morrow night I will offer no L>bjection to the adjournment, but I would point out to hon. members that it is desir­able that we should get to the first batch of rail­way• as •oon as possible.

Mr. PAGET: \Ve said we would finish to­n1orrow night.

The PRE1IIER: \Veil, we will finish the debate then.

Hon. R. PHILP: There are no railways tabled yet.

The SECHETARY l!'OR RAILWAYS: They will be tahled to-morrow.

The J>RE:\IIER: I thought we should have got the Bill to amend the Constitution Act through to-morrow. It is a little thing. (Laugh­ter.) It is a little bit of a Bill which we conld pass in an hour or so.

Hon. R. PHILP: Is that a Scotch joke ?

The PRE:HIER: I mean that there is not much detail in it. Everybody is seized of the principle, and if they disagree with it they will have done with it. But, as it is the desire of ban. members to continue the discussion of the Address in Reply another day, I agree to the adjournment.

Question put and passed ; and resumption of debate made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

The House adjourned at four minutes to 11 o'clock,

Questions. 121