Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 16 SEPTEMBER 1915

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

748 Speaker's Ruling. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

THURSDAY, 16 SEPTEMBER, 1915.

The SPEAKER (Han. W. McCormack, Cairns) to-ok the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

APPROPRIATION BILL No. 2.

AssENT.

The SPEAKER: I ha.-e to report that 1 this day presented to His Excellency the Governor Appropriation Bill No. 2 for the Royal as~ent, and that His Excellency was pleased, in my presence, to subscribe his assent thereto in the name and on behalf of His Majesty.

A message was also received from His Excellency assenting to the said Bill.

QUESTIONS.

ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN.

Mr. PETRIE (Toombul) asked the Home Secretary--

" 1. What is the approximate death rate per 1,000 of illegitimate children under two years of age in Brisbane and suburbs during the twelve months end­ing 31st August, 1915?

"2. What is the rate for legitimate children?

"3. Have the lady inspectors under the Infant Life Protection Act any con­trol over the food used for infants by the person in charge of homes within the jurisdiction of the said Act?

" 4. Is it a fact that, in the case of one particular home for illegitimate children in South Brisbane which came under the continuous supervision of a medical prac­titioner in September, 1914, and has re­mained so until the present time, the death rate has been practically nil as compared with a heavy mortality during the preceding year, when there was no such continuous supervis~on ?"

HaN. J. HUXHAM (Buranda), for the Home Secretary, replied-

" 1. 115.07 per 1,000 of approximate population of children under two years of age.

"2. 35.78 per 1,000 of approximate population of children under two years of age.

"3. The lady inspectors have no con­trol in the matter of food, but they can give advicf\ as to the usc of foods.

"4. No."

CHARGES AGAINST WYBEN PEARLING 1 CoMPANY.

Mr. MAY (Flinders), on behalf of .Mr. Free, asked the Home Secretary-

" Will he lay on the table of the House a copy of the evidence and all the papers connected with an inquiry held at Thurs­day Island, on the 8th July last, by Mr. H. T. Macfarlane into certain charges preferred by the Government teacher at York Island against the Wyben Pearling Company?"

Questions. [16 SEPTEMBER.] Government Butter Transactions. 749

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC ~ANDS (Hon. J. M. Hunter, :llaranoa) _rephed-

" It is not ?~nsrdered advrsable to do so at present.

PRICE OF FLOUR AT FREMANTLE.

Mr. PETRIE asked the Premier-" 1. Is he aware that flour made from

imported wheat is bein!\ offered in large quantities by Perth mrllers at £15 lOs. aboard Fremantle?

"2. Is he aware that freight is £1 17s. 6d. per ton, harbour dues and wharfage 4s. per ton, so that flour can be landed in Brisbane for £17 lls. 6d. ?"

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS replied-

" 1. I have been informed that \Vest Australian millers are desirous of un­loading surplus stock of flour in this market, but have no knowledge of its quality or where the grain was grown from which it is produced.

"2. I have no reason to doubt the freight charge•\ mentioned by the hon­ourable gentleman are correct."

PRICE OF BACON IN BRISBANE.

Mr. ROBERTS (East Toowoomba), on be­half of Mr. Murphy, asked the Premier-

" 1. Can he ascertain the price ruling in Brisbane on 22nd May for ' Pine Apple' bacon (a) middles; (b) flitches; also ' Rex ' bacon (a) middles; (b) first flitches'!

" 2. And the price ruling in Brisbane on 14th September for 'Pine Apple' bacon (a} middles;· (b) flitches; also 'Rex' bacon (a) middles; (b) flitches?

"3. Is he aware that bacon has ad­vanced twice during the past four weeks, and that such bacon is the product of pigs purchased to meet the lower price that prevailed six weeks ago?"

Tho SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS replied- '

"1. Yes. "2. Yes. "3. The

into.'' matter is being inquired

PRICE OF BACON IN SYDNEY AND BRISBANE.

Mr. ROBERTS, on behalf of Mr. Murphy, asked the Premier-

PAPER. The following paper, laid on the table,

was ordered to be printed :-Return to an Order, relative tD statistics

of metropolitan and suburban local governments, made by the House, on motion of Mr. •r. L. Jones, on 28th July last.

PERSONAL EXPLANATION. Mr. H. L. HARTLEY (Fitzroy): With the

permission of the House, I desire to make a. personal explanation.

The SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House that the hon. member for Fitzroy be permitted to make a. personal explanation?

HONOURABLE ME:I-IBERS : Hear, hear ! Mr. H. L. HARTLEY: When clause 7 of

tho \Yorkers' Compensation Bill was being discussed last night, the Treasurer moved "That the question be now put." \Vhen that was done, I walked out of the Chamber under the impreosion that a division was to be taken on the que,.tion of the appli0ation of the closure, and I expected that another division would be taken on the clause. I find now that the closure was carried on the voices, and the division taken was on the motion that clause 7 stand part of the Bill. Had it not been for my misunderstanding on the matter, my vote would have gone with the " Ayes " on the question " That clause 7 do stand part of the Bill."

GOVER~MENT BUTTER TRANSAC­TIONS.

Mr STEVEXS (Rose1cood), in moving-" That there be laid upon the table of

the House a return showing--(aJ The a.mount or quantity of butter

bought or commandeered by the Go­vernment since the wholesale selling price was fixed by the board;

(b) The names of companies or agents from whom the butter was obtained, and the amount or quantity from each;

(c) The price paid for each re&pective lot purchased, and the price obtained for each lot sold ;

(d) The. date of each transaction; (e) The nanie of the broker or commis­

sion agent or agents (if any) through whom the business was done, and the rate of brokerage or commission paid in each case;

" 1. Is he aware that this morning's.

(f) The total sum (a) paid for butter bought; (b) received for butter sold; (c) paid as commission or brokerage;

(g) The profit (if any) made by the Go­vernment on thei~ transactions in butter;

Press reports-Flitch bacon in Sydney is lO~d., and flitch bacon in Brisbane h. 2d. ; middle bacon in Sydney ls., middle bacon in Brisbane ls. 3~d. Can he statto why bacon is so much dearer in Brisbane than in Sydney ?

" 2. As the price of bacon, which en-· ters so largely into the diet of the com­munity, is of great concern to the people of Queensland, will he kindly causu early investigation to be made?"

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS replied-

" 1. Yes; but a.t present I am unable to assign the cause.

"2. Investigations are being made into the matter."

(h) The loes (if any) made by the Go-vernment on these transactions,''

said : When this motion was first called the Chief Secretary called "Not formaL" For \Vhat reason I am ·at a loss to understand, unless he wished to have an opportunity of explaining the position of the Government with regard to these transactions. If that is the ca.se, I am very glad indeed, and I am sure the House will welcome the explanation, if any, that the Government <'~n make of the wretched muddle they have made of this business. Personally, I am not sorry that the Premier took the action he did, because

Mr. Stevens.]

750 .Gocernment Butter [ASSEMBLY.] Transactions.

:t giv~s members an opportunity. of discuss­mg th1s question and of reviewino- the action that tho Government have taken ';'.,ith regard to the dairying industry. This Government as the Premier acknowledged, came inu; power on tho strength of their promises m<J.de to the peopl~ that they would, if returned to power, !JrOV1de cheap food. (Hear, hear!) Another cause of thoir success at the polls was the fad that they falsely accused the late Government o~ culpable. negligence-these are the words m the Premier's manifesto in the Dar·:aldine programme, of which we h<J.vc heard so much. These were the words mod by the hon. ,and learned leader of the Government, and there is no doubt that thev ae•·i,ted to a very considerable extent in deceivi_ng the people and placing the present party m power.

Mr. O'SuLLIVAN: '\Ve have heard that so {>ften that we are getting sick of it.

Mr. STEVENS: The Government, having ,,ttamed power _through t:1ese promises and false representatwns, no doubt thought it was incumbent on them to at least make some show of redeeming their promises. '\Vhat ~was the result?. 'J'ho noor little dairying md_us~ry-at a tune _wh~n the dairymen were suffenng severe pnvahons, vvhen it 1vas a g·lcat struggle for n1any o± then1 to eke out Pven fill existence--was singled out and made the Cinderella of the industry. The dairy­men were made the scapegoats in order to endeavour to decnive the people and make th. m, b~lieve tl:at the Government were keep­mg tne1r prom1ses. At the time the Govern­ment came into power butter v; as certainly a tnfle above the normal level, but that was because-<Ls hon. members opposite know per­fectly well-tho most severe drouo-ht in the history of the Southern States ot Australia W<1S then being felt. In consequence of that there "as no butter ir, the State of Victoria' and they had to come to Queensland for thei~ Sllpplies. ·would any reasonable man deny that the da1rymen of Queensland had a right to that market when it was open to them? \Yill the h;m. member for Oxley deny that? 1 say he will not.

Mr. T. L. JONES : How do you know?

Mr. STEVENS : I am satisfied that he will not deny that the dairymen of Queens­la~d were ~ntitled to t!:te legitimate market pnce of the1r butter whwh could be obtained for them in the State of Victoria. What was the acti?n of the Government with regard to that mdustry? They arbitrarily fixed the wholesale price of butter in Queensland at 196s. per cwt., which was below the actual cost of production in the majority of cases but further than that-and far worse tha~ that-they prohibited the dairymen of Queensland from exporting the·ir surplus pr~duce. and. obtaining the market price for It m V ICtona. I may probably be told by ~orne member of the Government that that IS not the case~ ':nd that the export of buttf1r was !lot proh1b1_te_d. Well, the export was practically proh1b1ted, because the Govern­ment did not allow the agents or companies to export any of their butter and when notice. was given that they int~nded to ex­port 1~, the _Governm~nt arbitrarily took posseP'-IO!l of It . at. th01r own price, less 2 per cent .. c'?mnurswn. They had been in­structe-d 1t 1s the common practice in the trade for 2 per cent. di:,";ount to be allowed. . The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRuCTION · Butter was double the price then. ·

[lllr. Stevens.

Mr. STEVENS : That proves how com­petent the Government were to handle this business. They knew absolutely nothing about it. Not a single man amongst them know anything about the business which they had the temerity to go into.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : J:?utt-er was twice its ordinary price at that t1me.

Mr. STEVENS: Absolutely no. I can give the han. gentleman the aYerage price of butter for years past in Queensland, and he will find that it was only slightly above the average priue wh.:n the Government took tl~at action. Following on that action, what d1d the Government do? Thev took this butter from the dairyman at 19.6s. per cwt. The Crown Law Office informed the owners of the butter that they would not be allowed to accept a higher price than 196s. per cwt. Presumably that was the bw. But what did the Government do? If that was the law, they practically broke the law bv selling this butter at a higher price than 196s. But, even then, their muddling did not end; in fact, it was only just begin­ning, because we find that, in at any rate one transaction upon which I hope to get a little more information, for the Govern­ment have been very secretive, they have burked every question that has been put to them; they have evaded the isoue; a ques­tion of fact they have c'1lled a point of law, and declined to answer it, after infor>n­ing the dairymen that they would not be· allowed to <'Xport their butter at anything over 196s., they themselves sold the Queens­land dairymen's butter to a firm of specu­lators in Melbourne at such a price that they were able to make a profit of over £13 a ton on that butter. That is what the "people's Government" does for the people of Queensland.

Mr. 13EBBINGTON: Country people don't count, you know. It is only the city people who count.

Mr. STEVENS : I intend to read an article showing the position of the butter business a• it then existed, and the consequences of the Government's action. 'rhe statement is the statement of the owners of butter and it is signed by all the owners and agents except the firm of Foggit, Jones, and Com: pany, but I am satisfied that the hon. mem­ber for Oxle-y will not deny one word of the statement, though there is no reason t0 wonder why his firm did not sign it--

Mr. T. L. JoNES: I will not deny it. You are slightly mistaken.

Mr. i?~EVENS : On account of the equivo­cal pos1t10n that the hon. member finds him­self in on that side of the House. ThE! article is headed "Shippers' Protest," and reads-

" In view of the many misleading statements which have been made with respect to the marketing of butter during the past few months, and the slurs which have been cast upon the agents and dis­tributors of dairy produce in Brisbane, we think that it is only right that the public should receive from us, not only a di"avowal of the motives and actions attributed to us, but also a brief sketch of this matter, which has been converted into political importance, and the true aspect of it twisted out of shape. Per­haps the public have not quite under­stood that the distribution of butter and

Government Butter [16 SEPTEMBER,] Transactions. 751

cheese is made entirely for and on account of the butter and cheese fac­tories, which are nearly all co-operative­that is, they belong to the farmers. These ao-ents do not pur~hase the butter, and ,;ake their profit a> in ordinary trade; thev merely make the Dles, and return the prices realistd to the factories or companies, less selling commission."

Hon. mPmbers opposite knew that perfectly well during the election campaign, and yet by their statements they induced the people to believe that the late Premier and the late Treasurer h:td conspired to purchase and

hold stocks of butter for the ex­[4 p.m.] press purpose of forcing prices

up. That is one of the mis­leading statements hon. members on the other side made in order to deceive the people. The A~9istant Home Secretary last night by int<~rjections said, "·would the people be foolish ·enough to believe such a thing':" Did not hon. members opposite expect to be believed when they TP'lde such statements? Undoubtedly they did, and un­doubtedly they were believed to a very great exb:nt.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Hence these tean.

Mr. STEYENS: The statement con­tinues-

" L:rge quantities· of butter were in C(Jld store" during the early part of the year, the accumulation of several weeks' ,.urplu~. because of the impossibility of obt·.ining steamer space for shipment to GrPat Britain. Commitments of butter for London w8re therefore made as the steamers bi'came available, ther!J being no evidence at this time that this buGter would be required for consumption with­in the Commonwealth. The po~.ition de­veloped with such extraordinary rapidity that ir April the devastating effects of the drought in Victoria had reached a crucial stage, the pastures had been dried up, and the production of dairy produce fell off at an a-larming rate, and it could then be seen that they would require to obtain supplies of butter from other place·, right through their winter. Vic­torian merchants and retailers naturally went to the country or Stat0 where sup­plies were obtainable, and made pur­chases here in Queensland for their im­mediate requirements from week to week. Realising the seriousness of the situation, attempts were made by the Brisbane shippers to get the butter (that had been shipped) unloaded from the steamers be­fore they left Australian waters, and to this end we enlisted the assistance of the Federal Prime Minister, but our efforts were unsuccessful."

Even the Prime Mini"ter of the Common­wealth, powerful as he may be, cannot int-er­cept trade in an arbitrary manner.

" As Victorian supplies became less and less buyers were willing to give an increased price here. There was nothing in the nature of these purchases to show undue speculation; they had the charac­ter of continued supplie~ for immediate require1nents. ''

Mr. T. L. JONES: You know that is un­true--absolutely untrue.

Mr. STEVENS: I know i~ is absolutely true, and the han. member for Oxley also knows that it is absolutely true.

Mr. T. L. Joc-ms: I know it is untrue.

Mr. STEVENS : The han. member knows perfectly well that there is not a merchant in Australia who would be so foolish as to speculate in butter with prices as they then \vere.

:Mr. T. L. Jons: Why, the very firm that bought that butter you called specnlators yourself.

Mr. STEVENS: The hon. member also kJ,ows that thoro was no butter to speculate with at that tin•e.

" As the prices which the Victorian people offered increased so was the price in Brisbane incre~sed. No one but the ·farmer and the man on the land at this end benefited by the increasing prices of butter and cheese."

Will the hon. member deny that ? Mr. T. L. Jo~ms: I say that is true.

/

Mr. STEVE="TS": So is the other true, and the han. member knows it.

"It was asserted by some, but without any regard to correctness or knowledge of the subj l:ct, that persons in Brisbann and :Melbourne had purchased, and wore holding in stores round about Bricb•"ne, butter and cheese in anticipation of an increased price in the market. These as,ertions were without foundation in fact. and were untrue. \Ve also wish to emphatically state that the war in Europe had no effect on the Australian winter butter market; it was entirely the outcome of the mo't serious drought in history in the f•outhern portion of Australia. Man} a year previously, as ever.>tbody knows, the price of butter during the winter in ordinary sea•;ons has reached very high prices in Mel­bourne and sometimes in Brisbane, but this year''-

I hope the Secretary for Public Instruction will listen to this-

" despite these abnormal conditions, the retail price in Brisbane has not exceeded 2s. 2d. per lb. for choice butter, whilst 2s. per lb., or less, has prevailed most of the time."

Will the hon. gentleman maintain that that was an abnormal price, that it was far be­yond the average at that time of the year?

Mr. PETERSON: The elections took place then.

Mr. STEVENS: " Owing to the same climatic condi­

tions other food commodities, such as flour and grain products, also advanced, and the high price of foods gfmerally was made the star piece by the Labour party at the general election on 22m! May. A section of the public, through their leaders and their own particular Press, had become obsessed with the idea that the public, in these high prices, were being bled by the producers or their agents, and that it would be a simple matter for their representatives to remedy Pll this if placed in power. Con­trary to the expectations of these people, the price during the next six weeks ad­vanced owing to the circumstances re-

j]f r. Stevens. J

752 Government Butter [ASSEMBLY.] Transactions.

counted. On the 7th instant the Govern­ment, by proclamation, fixed the price of best quality butter at 196s. per cwt., a reduction of 2d. per lb. This price was fixed without due regard to the cost of production, which is very high in­deed on account of the high cost of fodder and the generally dry condition of the country in our dairying districts. In this proclamation the Government made conditions which restricted the ex­port of butter, and in connection with this it must be borne in mind that there is a surplus of butter in Queensland over our requirements for local consumption. The Government also reserve the right to purchase an;,- or all of this. butter intended for shipment, and durmg the past week they have purchased a large quantity at a cost of about £6,000. The Government's action in this matter IJ'light be commendable if this State were short of or starving for butter, but such is not the case, and, as they can find no outlet here for th<> butter which they have pur­chased they find that they are obliged to dispose of it bv shipment to Mel­bourne, thus -following practically the same procedure that the agents were pur­suing on behalf of the farmers. The money that this butter makes in Mel­bourne in excess of 196s. per cwt. we are informed will be ' equitably distributed' later on."

A long way later on, apparently--" The distribution of such surplus

hitherto was made by the agents by pay­ing the money to the factories who owned the butter. Any sort of ' distribution' would have been robbing the lawful owners. The Government say that they have no alternative but to ship this butter, because agents here have been selling, and are willing .to sell, best quality butter at a less pr10e than 196s. per cwt. There is no truth whatever in such a statement. The agents here have not been selling at less than 196s. per cwt. on ;he same trade terms as before, and it would be absurd of them to do so when they could get this price from the Government.

" The Premier told a deputation on the 15th instant that the Government was not anxious to disturb the ordinary course of trade after the Queensland require­ments of butter had be"n provided for, but the Government's action since is in direct contradiction of this statement. They have assumed the functions which belong to the ordinary trader, but in the handling of the butter which they have purchased the Government cannot be complimented, in the light of a commer­cial transaction, on its disposal. They sold at 220s. per cwt. f.o.b. Brisbane, which. in view 'Jf the Melbourne market at 233s. 4d., is bad business. Other agents--"

including the han. member for Oxley-" could have obtained a better price for it. The Southern specufator is thus get­ting a good thing in this deal from the Government.. As our surplus increases so of course must it become easier to re­duce the price with the restricted con­sumption of this market, but the dairy­ing industry in Queensland mwer sub­sisted, and never will, on local demands; it is far too big a thing for that. If the sale of wool were confined to this and the

[Mr. Steven.s.

other States it would not be worth ld. per lb. We are compelled to look for other markets for the very subsistence of our splendid industrim• in Australia.

"The whole ·of the butter shippers and agents in Brisbane repudiate any inten­tion or attempt on the part of themselves or the manufacturers of butter and cheese to advance :r;riceR beyond the legitimate value much less by improper, dishonour­able, 'or unlawful means, and there is not a shadow of evidence to the contrary. In spite of all restrictions, which have al­most amounted to persecution of the whole dairying industry in New South \Vales, prices there have advanced ~d. per lb. during the last few days, With the sanction of the Government, as they find that the cost of imported butter is in excess of current prices, and it is quite possible that a further rise in New South Wales will have to take place. To sum­marise the pos;tion, the Government has fixed an arbitrary price for local ~rade by which it robs the f_arm!l:' .who IS al­readv suffering heavy disabilities through drought conditions, ~n fav~nu: of the man in the city who IS enJoymg regular wages."

'I'hat is undoubtedly the result of the action of the Government, and my object thi~ after­noon was to find out whether they will con­tinue in that manner-

" It has asBumed control of the export trade."

The SPEAKER : Order ! I hope the bon. member is not going to read the whole of that paper. (Laughter.)

Mr. STEVENS: I have only a few more lines-

" It has asmmed control of the expo;rt trade, and by incompetent salesmansh~p it has further robbed the farmer m favour of buyer~ outside ~l}e State. . It has interfered with a cond1t10n of affaus which is solely attributable to drought condition, and on which the present war has no bearing whatever. It has proved conclusively by its own acti'?ns that the butter trade in Queensland 1s conducted on legitimate lines, and that the slurs which it has cast upon the agents as a section of the community are unwar­ranted and unjust.-We are, sir, &c.,

J. C. Hutton Pty., Ud. The Farmers' Co-operative Distribut-

ing Company of Queensland, Limited. Dalgety and Co., Ltd Crouch and Connah, Ltd. Queensland Farmers' Co-op. Co., Ltd. C. 0. Mant. Foley Bros. F. R Clarke. Morison Bros. Stewart and Walker. W. Siemon and Sons Ltd. New Zealand Loan and Mercantil~

Agency Co., Ltd. Howes Bros. and Co., Ltd. Silverwood Dairy Factory Co., Ltd. \Villiam Johnson."

As I said before, the firm of Foggitt, Jones, and Co. is the only name-

Mr. T. L. JoNES: No. that is not true; there are others.

Government Butter [16 SEPTEMBER.] 1'ransactions. 753

Thlr. STEYE::\TS: I think not; I know of no others--

Mr. T. L. JONES: I do.

Mr. S'l'EVENS: And I am fairly well acquainted with the butter trade in Brisbane, as the han. me nber knows, and the name of his firm iR the only one I miss from this article. As I said before, there is no neces­sity for wonder that the han. member did not like to put hie name to the foot of this statement--

Mr. T. L. JoNES: Because it is not true; that is why.

GOVERNMENT ME:.IIBERS: It is not true.

:Mr. STEVENS: Considering the position he has taken up. The han. member says it is not true, and I understand that the Minis­ter for Lands also makes a statement that it was not true. Any gutter-snipe can call a man a liar and say a statement is not true, but that does not prove that it is not true. This statement is absolutely true, and the han. member for Oxley, and the Premier also -if he likes to take the trouble to ascertain the facts--will find it is true, but I have no doubt that he knew perfectly well that that was the condition of the butter industry in Queen,. land at the time of the general elec­tions and at the time they took this action. I beg to move the motion.

Mr. BEBBIXGTOX (Drayt~n): I have pleasure in supporting the motion that these documents be laid on the table, because there are sc\·cral very important reasons why they ehoukl be; laid on the table, ·and our people feel very :;trongly on the matter. There are two little matters about which I would like to relllind han. members on the other side · ith regard to rec<mt election promises. One of them wa<; that, in the electorate of Enog­gera, on the Friday night before the elec­tions, butter was promised, if the: Labour party were returned to power, at 1s. per lb., and another bdy-I heard on very good <J.uthority this morning-stoaod up on the platform and said if the Labour party got in they need not pay any more ren•.. I do not know whether that referred to the wc,rker~' dwellings or not, but the st~.temcnt was given to me on good authority; in flfLct, it. wa·> a gentleman who came to sell me sorne share;':).

The SECRET.\RY FOR P"[;BLIC LANDS : l-Ie knew how he could get on the right side of you.

Mr. BEBBI.::\GTON: However, that i.Yus his statement, and I am not respon:<ible l01" it.

Tho SECRETAR-Y FOR PUBLIC LANDS: lie \YantC'd t.o sell ycu some shan.-.:.

Mr. BEBBIXGTON: It is very hard to realioe the hard··hip that Wfis inflicted on people who have been subj·•ct to a two or three ycacs' drought by the action of the Mini.tci'. I am quib- sure that there is not a wotking rnan in Brisbane, or in ..:\ustralia, who, ;.vhcn he know5 tho cost of vroducing our bu,~tP.r, and ·when lH .. ' kno~.vs that we were carrying our herds through a drought-you h<lve the evidence of the milkmen in Brisbane ro day, who say that milk is -costing them Sd. a quart to produce-that is equal to Ss. 6d. per lb. for butter--

MI-. PETERSON: You said 3s. 6d. per lb.

Mr. BEBBI::\TGT0::\1: I did say 3s. 6d., and that showe that I was more than telling the truth; I only gave you half the cost. There

1915-3 A

is the evidence of your own men m the city here that butter is costmg them Ss. 6d. per lb. to produce. Then, there is ~he_ eviden~e of an hon. member here, who smd It ~ost £1 5s a "ock to keep his horse, and it Will take the same to keep a cow, and butter at that cost would be 6s. or 7s. per lb. Then the butter w:c~s being sent to Victoria. It "as not as if it were our own people ,,,.ho were paying the extra price ; and, even if it was, it only amounted to <tbout 3d. per lb.-and at 'd per lb pe-r head per week that would ~o~e to l~d. per week to give this little advantage-the Victoria?s were gladly ~nd willingly paying somethm!j ~awards keepmg ou1~ starving stock, and g1v1ng ~o1~e ret1u:n to the dairymen who we_re sacrrfic~ng therr own interests to keep then stock ahve·. But the Government actually stopped the export oi that butter. The Minister had so much svmpathy for the man on the land t~at ~e actually said " No, you shall not grve rt. No, no; 1s. 9d. per lb. is enough for them." Then, what course did he take after? . Just the very course that that P:'rty hav~ aJv.-aye condemned. They have always sard there is 0ne law for the rich and another for the poor.

A GOVERNMENT MEMBER: Hear, hear !

Mr. BEBBINGTON: "Hear, hear." You and your party, ·at any ra~e, took the law into your own hands, and drd what y~m ·would not allow tho co-operative compa!],!es to do for themselves .. Y.Ju would not allow them to send the butter to Victoria. You said it was unlawful to do it, but the very thing you said it was unlawful for the people fo) do tho Government-who rs represented h y middlemen--did. I ask is that fair play? ( ask is it even British justice, the way we have bL'C!l treuted? Hon. membr·:·s ta!k about us being bitter toward' the people m the citie«. Can you wonder at it? Can you ·wonder the boys coming into the towns t J look for work? Do you think they are fools enough to stay in the country and be treated as they have been treated by t~1e prr,ent Gover!l'nent? If you do you nus­understand thllm altnp:ether, hlt I am sure you don't.

:Mr. PETERSON interjected.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: The han. member is ,upr1osed to represent a country district, but hi.J actions helve not been in favour of the vcopln he represents.

Mr. PETERSON: He will be responsible.

Mr BEBBINGTON: His actions have b··en. tointed by pGople who gave election pledg(',. In order to fulfil election pledges the' would rob any body of farmers as they ha;;e done by taking out ctuff at less than cost. That is v.hat the hon. member's actions have been tainted bv instead of representing the country people as he should have ·done. These rent and butter promis?s ha YB beeu r11ad::'. a.nd I won't say that son1e prou1ist<·1 have· not been fulfilled. Pcrhens tho rfl·· turns in connection with the workers' dwell­ings will show whether the rents have been paid up since the elections or not. ~he han. member ftn· Toowoomba put a question on that promise, and I ~auld like the Go­vernment to say whether, smce that statement was made on the platform, the rents for workers' dwellings have been paid or not.

:Mr. T. L. JONES: Who made that stat"­n~ent?

Mr. Bebbington.]

754 Government Butter [ASSEMBLY.] Transact;ons.

.Mr. BEBBlNGTON: I could give it to you, but I won't. That is straight. When the mal·l,et price was something like 233s. they took our butter at 196s. Then they sent it down themselves and made a profit. Even suppose they made a profit-some say they did not make a profit-suppose they re­turn~d the profit, if there was one, why not allow the companies to do that work tlwm­selves? \Vhy should the companies be re­sponoiblc for the bungling and loss of the Government'! You never know what ccm­ll11S3Ion is given. You never kno"\v \vhat is being clone in that line. Only a short time ago a gentleman went over to inquire into things about commissions, and he was told, " You n<>ed not pay any rent. \V e will find you a house," and after a while he was told that the house was preAeritecl to him. These are some of the undercurrents and some of the payments which the Govern­ment cannot explain to us. We do not know where all these commissions go to. I am not one of those who say that the middle­man is making a great lot out of the pro­ducer-! am referring to the agents. I have had a good many years' experience of that, as the han. member for Oxley knows, and I say that the commission we pay the com­panies, after they have clone their work, paid harbour tluc;, paid rebates, and every­thing else leaves very little profit. In nine cas<'s out of ten the companies could not do thJJ work themselves for the same money, so that the plea that the Government took over this produce because the middleman or agents were making large sums of money was only a mere excuse to cover up their actions.

;\1r. BERTRAM: You have a very evil mind.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: There is nothing evil about that. That is fad. There is nothing evil about it; it is merely informa­tion. Thev took our butter at 196s. when it was worth.233s. On whose side was the evil? \Vas it on our -ide, who were> robbed, or on the side of the Minister who robbed us?

Mr. BERTRA:.II : S1xak the truth. Mr. BEBBINGTON: Was it on the side

of the producer, or on the sitlo of the Go­verument which took £7 a. week from the '\'l arwick co1npany?

Tho SPEAKER : Order ! Mr. BEBBINGTON: I have very much

pleasure in supporting the proposition that the information be laid on tho table.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I do not rise in any way whatever for the purpose of preventing the information sought by the mover of the motion being afforded. The information that is desired-that is, in genNal-this party is quite prepared to give. However, I am of opinion that this motion has not been moved for the purpose of get­ting information, but for the purpose of giving han. members opposite another oppor­tunity of airing their views on this par­ticular question.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: No, no! Mr. BEBBINGTON: \Vhy do -you not give

the information, then? The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS:

They have had more than one opportunity of doing so, but they still like to come back to their vomit and have a word or two at the hon. member for Oxley. The motion moved by the hon. member for Rosewood is quite re"sonable if he would confine him­self to reasonable things, but the hon. mem-

[M r. Bebbington.

ber wants to go so greatly into details that it would take a couple of sheets of foolscap to furnish the information he asks for, whilst all that is wanted can be clone in a few lines. The Government, whPn they dealt with this butter question, had no intention of dealing unfairlv with the dairymen.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: You did, all the same. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS:

The hon. member said that they would not allow the companies to ship their butter South, but what they considered an illegal act they themselves were carrying on when they took it over. The han. member does not seem to realise the difference between the regulation of export• under Government con­trol and the rate at which export was takin,; place when the Government stopped. in. -~ s a matter of fact, what some compames were doing here was sending supplies out of the State, and so making supplies short, . .a':'d forcing prices up. It was most unpatr10t10. And it was in order that prices should not rise too high and that export might be regulated that the Government took action. As a matter of fact, butter was being sold cheaper in Melbourne than it was being sold in Brisbane.

Mr. PETER SO:~'< : And London, too. Mr. BEBBINGTON: Is not machinery sold

cheaper in London than here? The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS:

And in London much cheaper, too. The figures go to show that butter from Queens­land was offering in the Melbourne market at a lower price than the companies were asking th1 Brisbane people for it, and it w~s just about time that somebody stopped m and stopped the market being rigged in that way. (Hear, hear!)

Mr. BEBBINGTON: How is it that you sent so much to Melbourne?

The SECRETARY FOR P"GBLIC LANDS: The object was to prevent so much going to :Melbourne. The export was discontinued and local requirements were met, and when they werP met then the export there was continued. Nothino· unfair in the matter took place. I propm,,~ to move a slight amendment to the motion of the hon. member for Rosewood, which will not prevent the House obtaining all the informatioi1 desired, but will defeat the inquisitorial nature of the question. I propose to move the omission of all the words after "obtained," in paragraph (b), clown to the word "brokerage," in paragraph (/), with a view to inserting the following:-

" (c) The names of brokers or agents (if any) employed in the sale of butter.

" (d) 1. The total sum paid for butter bought.

2. The average price paid per hundredweight for butter bought.

3. The total sum received for butter sold.

4. The amount paid for (a) bro­kerage; (b) other charges.

5. The average price received per hudredweight for butter sold."

'That allows the two first questions of the han. member's motion to stand and the last two.

Mr. VowLES: You do not want to give yourself away.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: No. All that this does is that it does not follow each individual sale or purchase, for the simple reason that there were small

Government Butter [16 SEPTEMBER.] Transactions. 755

quantities of butter sold at different prices, sold at different times, and sold by different people, and to go through the whole details would be an altogether absurd and unreason· able thing for the House to ask.

:Mr. BEBBINGTON: If you .sold it honestly, give us the information.

Mr. POLLOCK: You haY'3 got the actual re3ults ; they are sufficient.

Mr. BEBBIXGTON: No, we have not. \Vhy be ashamed of your actions?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I desire to say tha.t no purpose can be served in giving more details. The gross amount bought and the gross amount sold, and the total paid and received for it, the total charges incurred in connection there­with, commission and brokerage, and the total profit and loss, if any, will all appear. I am sure that that will be a fair digest of the whole business and would give this House and the country all the information they are interf·>ted or concerned in.

GovERNMENT ME}IBERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. VowLES: No, it will not.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Just in further proof of the statement I made at the commencement-that there was a shortage of butter-I will read a letter which has been handed to me, written by J. C. Hutton and Co. on lOth July last to a customer of theirs in North Queensland. It states-

" \V e are very glad to advise that we have been able to ship the whole of your butter by the 'Wyandra' to-day.

" We had great difficultv yesterday in obtaining sufficient butter to execute your orders, and oniy for the fact that the GoYernment ho.ve now prohibited the export of butter to the other States, we would not have been able to have shipped you any bHtter at all by to-day's steamer. The Government up till yesterday after­noon had fixed the price of this line but they were allowing butter to be ex: ported. The result was that most of the factories wpre shipping: their entire out­put to Melbourne and AdPlaide, where they were able to obtain 224s. per cwt. Now that the export has been proHbited we think there will be about sufficient bnttf'r for the Queensland requirPments.

" \V e were sorr:v we could not send :-'our order forward bv the mail boat but it was absolutelv impossible for ,;s to obtain any supplies."

'J'h 't " '•.s the stat<' of the h1tter mark0l whon it was tlwught llC'<'·e· ·ary to. tep in end see'. et least, that the counh": th"t nrocluroc1 that butter should huve s~me ~f it.

J\Tr. BEnRT:--;GTO:<: \Vh0n thPy paid for it.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Cetn [lnv nPr"on jn QuePnsland or thjs l-Iou:c sav that that wcs an unreason.1ble thing?

!\h. ?.foonE: Yes. !\fr. Brw:T'\'GTOX: Yes. certainly.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: \Ye_s .it n0t a rca,onable thing that the ''WJOI'ltv of the pr•JplP who produced that ~luttPr should bt• allowed to keep some of it 1n thf• Stqtf:-? Tl1e same pojnt '\Yas maflo a fpw ·ci ~ hh ago with re<rard to th0 wheat mpplv TllG whole of thf' v:h· at hc>ld on il>r• Dorling Downs wa1 to be held for th0 selcd few. while thosP in the Southern c~:;qt and those on the Northern coa··t were to be'

denied ewm the necessaries of life. That is what wo can fairly torm class logic.lation of the most unreasonable charact:,r-that only ,;. c;cotion of tho community should be pro­Yidcd for. That is not the policy of thi' Government. The policy of this Government

is that all sections of the com­[4.30 p.m.] munity shall receive fair play,

and that no sedion ;;hall ba spe6ally protected in order that they may indulge in profit-mongering and fleece the community at their will. I beg to mayo the amendment, and fed sure that it will meet with the approval of the House.

GOVERNMEXT MEMBERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. T. L. JOXES (Oxley) : I regret that the hon. member for Rosewood is not in the Chamber. I think he went out of his way to a great extent to make a personal refer­ence to me, and ho might have w.1ited long enough to ascertain if I would reply. Poo­sibly I should be quite justified in assuming from his absence that he is rather afraid of a reply. I was highly amused at the readiHg of the letter quoted by the hon. m8mber for Rocewood. The idea of the' hon. member forming this unholy alliance with proprie­tary firms, which in days gone by were ano.­thema to him, is exceedingly amusing to those who know the circun1'-itancC's. 'l'he sole stock-in-trade for the propaganda work of the hon. member and hi' confreres was to attack proprietary firms continually. No good. according to those gentlemen, could como out of Nazareth ; there never was a dc•cent proprietary hous2 in existence, ac~ rordinl?" to the hon. mPmber for Rosewood. Day after day and night after night he and his friends spent their time denouncing the proprietary firms, with "\vhich he has now formed an unholy alliance. Regarding the statement which I refused to sign-the "'tatcment as originally sub:nitted to the butter companies~I 1nay Eay that I 'vas pr~scnt ''"hen the letter was prcs::nt0d by th1:~ ·:ubronlnlittec, an-d in consE,quuv c of tho attac·k I n1ade upon it the lett• r ,.0-as Tery consicl 0 rably modifwd. "\ gn•at many wild statcln0ntf;-a grr;1,t deal wild -r th_tn the stute1ncnts cc;._._tained jn it. no,v-·lpp:are·d in that letter, and I l'l fused to identify my2elf with those statements. Evon now, the letter C'ontains a gr.cmt n1any untrue allegations as to the actual rtate of the butter market at th~> time prior to the gl"lGral election, but there is only one that I intend to deal with, and that is thE! stat"mcnt that t':le transa( oions in butter between Queensland and ]'del­bou'',I•' did not reprc ent the acti(;n of spocu­lators, and did not rc~ult in any prcfit to the speculators. One great objection the hen. member for Rosewood has to th'J aolion ot the Government in regard to the butter they purchased v. as that they sold the butter to onf' particular firm in Melbourne. whom he designates as speculators. Much of the but­ter exported to Melbourne in March, April, and May was purchased by the very same firm. When private merchants in Queens­land sell to that firm they do right, but when the Government does the same thing it is not right, and they are denounced by the hon. member as a veritable Jeremiah. I say there was undue speculation in butter at the time referred to, and that the .Mel­bourne speculators rca.,ed a heavy harvest from the speculation. When butter was 118s. lwrc, the ]\'felbonrno buyers bollg-ht h(•nvily. The price wa" not then fixed in Brisbane, and the local agents were endeavouring to

JJfr. T. L . .Jones.]

756 Government B1<tter [ASSEMBLY.] Transactions.

hold the butter at what was considere~ a reasonable price-about 118s.. At th~ t1me there was a great outcry agamst rushmg up the price of food products on account of the ·war.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: Do you think that was a fair price for the producer? ·

Mr. T. L. JOJ\iES: It was an excellent price. I am referring· now to the month. of March when the price was abnormally high -high~r than it had been for yt'ars back. The Melbourne merchants or buyers-specu· ]a tors as the hon. member for Rosewood cal!& them-'-came to Brisbane and bought butter at 118s. They offered 4s., 6s., 8s., and lOs, premium on the local llric~ in or?er that thev might get the supplies mto theu hands. Thcv got the supplies, with the resul~ that the 1oc a! merchants were left almost w1thout supplies, and tho price here \\as forced up from 118s. to 140s. The Melbourne n:er­chants had got the Queensland butter mto their ho,nds and they then went to the price board 'in Melbourne and said, " There is a shoriage of butter here; we have .to go to Queensland for butter, and the. pn~e there is 140s." Then, up went the pr1ce m Melbourne to 200s. per ton, and the butter bought in Queensland at 118s. was un­loaded in Melbourne at huge profits. On one shipment alone a profit of ~9,000 was realised. If farmers' representatives would like to have an investigation of this matter, I would \Velcome a move in that direction. During the electio!l the late . Premier. was challenged to appomt a committee to tpves­tigate the statement, and he was afraid to appoint such a committee, because the alle· gation was absolutely true.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: Did Victorian people lmv the butter, or did Queensland pe,ople buy it?

Mr. T. L. JO::'~ES : I am dulling now >~·ith the statement of the bon. memboT for Rose­wood--that no profit was made bv Melbourne snecul a tors in butter. That. ~tatcmcnt is not t~·ue, ::md the bon. member foT Rosewood knov s it is not tru0, or else he dDes not know the facts regarding tho butter trade. With g o-rcat -deal of the han. member's statement I ~m in agreement. I am perfectly willing to bear testimony, as I -did during tho elec­tion. thnt the Brisbane merchants and agents vvere not profit-mongering in butter. But to <av that the Melbourne merchant~ did not make huge profits out of butter is to make a statement which is absolutely untrue. The hon. member for Drayton appears to know a little about election pledges. When he first stood for a seat in Parliament, he went round the electorate wooing the electors, and he said to them, " I am chairman of the Cheese :Manufacturers' Association; we have got the business people of Brisbane in our hands, and we can do what we like with them-we can squeeze them like that."

:\1r. BEBBI~GTON : And you did some squeezing. (Laughter.)

Mr. T. L .• JOXES: That is all I have to Ba\ on the question. As far as I am con­C(,;·nrd, I c"n see no objection tD g-iving the whole of the information asbcd for in the motion. but the Minister ha~ given certain reason-: for amending the motion, and I se•ond the amendment.

:\!Ir. VO\VLES (Dalby) : I intend to oppose this mcwndment. I vAry much regret that a gent!em"n in the position of trust that the

[Mr. T. L. Jones.

Minister is, in which position he comman­deered all the butter of the people of QtH'ens­land, should beg the question a~ he has .done, and eliminate what be propoRea to do m the motion. He is really knocking the whole of the ginger out of the question. .It appears to me that this has been orgamsed for a purpose·, tho purpose being not to give n~ anv infornJa.tion. There 1nust be some good rea~on why they are doing that. In a. Go­nrnment departm~nt where they have plenty of clerical assistance, it is only a ma~ter of a few hours' work for them to comptle the names of the individuals who have had the bandling of the products, ..:md also the names of the producer". (Hear, hear !) A red her­ring has been drawn ,across the track. T~e bon. member for O;xley got up, but whll;t dtd he ;,av about the amendment? He Simply tried to lead us on to something that occur;·ed before tho doction. The Driginal questwn dca]c, with the handling of the people's butter Jw the Government. ~, o do not care what tl;e public or the agents did before th~t. but '"e want to know what the repreaentatives of the wople did, and if they ha:ve .been acting honestly. (Hear, hear!) ThiS :s what ~he public want tD know, and. that IS wl:y tnat qllc,tion wa<l asked. Cm_nmg t? pa;rhculars, w<e are toM that at the trme thrs smzuro was made, previous to the export . taking place, there was not sufficient butter m Queensland for· ]ocftl consumption. That wus t?I? us deliberately this afternoon by the ::i-f1mster. I want to refer to " Hansard " to ~<how what he .did say.

Mr. 'I'. L. JONES: I don't think the .:Hinister said that at all. He said there was. " shortage camed by the quantity of butter going to Melbourne.

::i-1r. VOWLES: He says there was not sufficient butter herp, and I shall refer to c

1 I-Iansard."

Mr. LARCOMBE (Keppel): I rise to a point of order Is the hon. member for Dalby in order in quoting from "Ha':sard" a speech from a previous debate m the current session of Parliament?

The SPEAKER: ='To. The hon. member ''"ill not be in order in quoting a previous debate from " Hansard" of this session.

::'v1r. VOWLES : I am not going to quote from it. but I will give the text, or t'he pur­port of it. On the Address in Reply, I re­ferred to the butter· question. and said that in order to justify their action the Govern­ment was telling the people that there was not sufficient butt<er in Queensland for local consumption. Members opposite on that occasion said " No, no !" If it was wrong for me to '·'lV it on that ocoasion, how is it th«t it is ri;;.ht for the Minirter in charge of that ,departme,.;t to say "it to-day? I askea wa• it on account of a shortage that the Minister cxerc;sed his right to commandeer the butter. and the Premier denied it; yet we havE' the Minister to-day saying that the r~ason fer it was that there was a shortage.

The SECRL1'ARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: You know why the shortage was caused-because the butter was being sent away to Mel­bourne

::Wr. VOWLES: The statement was madS> that there was a shortage.

The SECRETARY FOR PliBLIC LANDS: Not a <;hortago in production.

J\Ir. VOWLJ<;S : You prohibited the publio from getting the butter, yet you exported it

Government Butter [16 SEPTEMBER.) Transactions. 757

to Victoria at a higher price than vou allmwd it to be sold for in Que8n'land. You sh.owed a very great want of business in­stmct when you allowed the people that you say you are always up against-'-that is, the speculators-to make a profit on it in Melbourne of £13 per ton. 'I'hat money was not distributed amongst the producers, but 'rent into the hands or the pockets of the speculators in Melbourne. That ie bad businepg, I do not think that the hon. mem­ber for Oxley would have allo ,.ed you to do that if you had asked him, but you simply d1d it on your own initiative. You took it over as a busine~s 1nan, and you took it over believimr that :vou knew more about it than anyone else. • Let me tell vou that you made a great mistake at the expense of the producer.

Hon. J. A. FIHELLY : Why don't you ad­dress the Ohair?

Mr. VOWLES: The Minister is being charged with neglect or want of business in­stinct in these dealings. We want to know the names of the individvals who have pro­fited by it. We want to know that there has been no partisanship in the appoint­ments. \Vc wctnt to know the nam()S of the persons and the amounts they received, and if we cannot get the inforr.'!ation there must be some very good reason for not giving it.

Mr. BEBBINGTON : I am going to sup­port the amendment. GOVERN~lENT ME11BERS : Hear, hear ! .and

loud laughter. Mr. BEBBINGTON: I am not rroing to

support the amendment, but I will"' support the original motion for this reason: As we stand. to-daY: yve are undoubtedly in a very peculiar pos1t10n. In one of the Gove~·nment institutions there are forty boxes of butter missing altogether. How do we know that some of our butter is not mixed up in that? The public want to know where that butter has gone to. We know that the Minister owns four or five stores, and perhaps there are some other members on that side who .are business men. All that we ask is : Who bought th!s butter? And we have a right to know rt. If I had been tbe Minister, .and l owned several stores I should be very anxious to give the ut:Uost details of the butter .and who were the purchasers of the other boxes. I would not even let the man in the street think that the boxes of butter r:right have gone to my friends. I would g1ve the utmost information to the last box of butter. I am sure when the Minister sees the importance of it he will give the information. ·

Mr. O'SULLIVAN: That is worthy of you. Mr. BEBBINGTON : I hope the Minister

will give the information.

Mr. :1\![00RE (Aubigny): I intend to op­pose th1s amendment. because we want to get this information. ·I do not consider that what the Minister proposes to give us is what we are wanting at all. \Ve want full de­tailed information. and I think we are en­titled to get it. I do not know if the Go· vernment have got anything to hide. They should not hide it. We are entitled to the information. We know that the Victorian people were buying butter here .at lOs. per cwt. more than we could get for it here but the farmers here wE're getting the benefit of that price, and so long as we were getting the benefit here, what did it matter what price Victoria was paying? Surely the dairy·

men were entitled to any benefit they could get after what they have had to put up with for the last two or three years. If the farmer does not get what he is entitled to, he should be allowed to get what he can. There is a class of butter which is made for the interstate trade that is not suitable for the Queensland trade, and it is the same "ith cheese. There is white cheese and highly coloured cheese, which is no good for the Queensland market, but is specially suit­able for the other States, and it should be permissible to send it away. You could not sell it in Brisbane at all, and as it is specially suitable for export it should be exported.

Mr. T. L. JONES: Yon sent it to the wrong agents.

Mr. MOORE: ?-Jo; we tried all the agents. I admit that they did their best to sell our product in or•der to got their commission, but it sometimes happens that they oonnot find a customer here for a certain kind of butter or cheese, and we tell them to sell in tlw. auction mart, or do what they can with it. There are some classes of butter .and cheese that you cannot get w1thm bs. ·:>r 6s. ;,ur owt. in Brisbane of the price you can get by exporting it. And, if you can get a better price in the South, even if the specu­lator is going to make a profit out of it, why should you not be allowed to export? The farmer has every right to make that p1:ofit. The hon. member for Oxley said that specu­lators from the South gave lOs. mol'e for butter here than the price then ruling. vV ell, if the farmcr:t got the 128s. per cwt., I cannot sec why they should not be entitled to get it. We want to get to the bottom of thi;; busine'oS to find out where the profit has been going to all the time. As the price goes up, of course the consumption goes ·down; but there has been a. surplus in Queensland the whole ti;ne, and, if we had not been prohibited irom exporting, the farmers would have got the benefit of the higher prices in the South. Everyone knows that dairying is not an industry you take up as .a hobby. It is hard work for seven davs a week, and if we can get a good pr;ee for our produce we have no right to be burked, and for the Government to step in and collar it and make 'a profit only mak<;lS rna tters ten times worse. ..

Mr. ARMSTRONG (Lockyer) : I cannot understand the disinclination of the Govern­ment to give the fullest possible information on this subject. This is the first attempt they made to c.ontrol ·prices, and surely, if the thing is aboveboard, we should get the fullest information in regard to the w:wle transaction.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Do you suggest that it is not aboveboard?

Mr. ARMSTRO:;\fG : What does it matter whether a clerk or two in the Department of Agriculture or the Chief Secretary's Depart­ment-whichever department is in charge of the l1usine"q-has to work extra hours for three or four days to supply the information that the Home requires? If members of this House require information, it ought to be supplied. 1 do not agree with the con­tention of the Secretary for Public Lands that one section of the community should be unduly taxed-he did not say "unduly " but I use the word-why one section of thv wm­munity should be so unduly taxed just

J.11 r. .Armstron!l.]

758 Government Butter [ASSE:MBL Y.] Transactions.

b.eca~se prices were raised through specula· tron m another State. What -does it matter to the _Secretary for Public Lo.nds or to rmy­body else whether there is speculation in the South in commodities producerl in this State sv long as the men producing those com­modities benefit? It is all very well to sa•,­that the CDnsumer in Brisbane <>hould receiv';, his butter ,at a lower price in times of drought; l:mt aro you doing anything for the prorlucer m the country, 11 ho is losing his stock? Does the man in the town whose »:;,ges are put .into his hanu, pay any attcr.­tion to the difficulties of the man in the c:mntry? I say distinctly, as the representa­tive of a large agricultural district that if the people in ~risbane a;·e hungry o~ thirsty, and they rcqurre somethmg that the country pcopl~ produc;e, and they a'-k directly for it, we Will send It -down to them. \Ve play the game properly ; but indirectly to tax us heavily in regard to our products is not the correct way of doing business. vVhy should y_ou bake 2~d. per lb. off the farmer's profits simply becaueo there is a dearth in the South?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Why should the Queen,land. dairyman supply the M~lbonrne populace With butter at a lower pnce than the people of Queensland ha,ve, to pay for it?

Mr. AR::Y1STRO;{G: If there is a better mark<?t in th,J South, the Farmer has a per­fect right to take advantage of it.

'The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: But why should he take a worse price down there than he gets here?·

Mr. J\R.MST_ROKG: That was only for a very b~I~f perwd-long before the crux of the position arose. But when the Government reduc.e·d the pri~e hom 205s. to 196s., and it rose ID the South to 232s., why was the pro­ducer not allowed to reap the benefit?

Mr. BEllBIN<iTOl><: 'That's the point.

. ::\1r ARMSTRO-NG: Will the han. mem­('et for Drayton restrain himself. (Loud Janf>hter.) The profit of £13 or £14 per ton whiCh was made by the specu!.ator in Bris­bane when the Go\ernment fixed the•price at 196s. did not go into the pocket of either t,~e pro?ucer or the consumer. It ,-,·ent arrectly mto the pockets of the speculator.

Mr. T. L. JONES: You are wrong.

Mr. ARMSTRONG: I am bound to accept the statement of the ,hon. member for Oxley ~ut I may say ,I have fairly good informa~ bon on the subject.

Mr. T. L. JONE:': No Queensland firm made that profit.

::VIr. AR::\ISTRO::\'G: The butter was pur­chased here at 196s., and was sold in Mel­bourne at 224s. Am I wrong in saying that the man who secured that butter maae ,a profit of £13 or £14 per ton?

Mr. T. L. JONES: You spoke o£ a Queens­land specul~tor, but the Government was the speculator m that case.

. Mr., ARMf?TRQ;{G: Well, I am support­mg Lte mo~Ion m order that >ve may find out eveJ:ythwg CDnnected with the business A ceetam amount of money has come int~ the hands of the Government. Docs the

[M.r. Armstrong.

.Minister propose to return that money to the producers of th2 butter through tho agents frmn whon1 it "\vas conunandeer-ed?

The, S.:c;cETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS: The in­tentions of the Government will be -disclosed in due course.

:Mr. AR::YISTRO;'\G: That may muw this year, next yPar, or so1no time in the future. Surdy suffici,mt time has clapced for every­t],ing connected with the business to be clt ,ned up by now.

Tlw SECRETARY FOR P-cBLIC LANDS: The transactions are not all cleared \lP yet.

Mr. ARMSTRONG: All the money re­ceived from the sale of the butter may not be actu,tllv in the hands of tho Government yet, but that is neither here nor there. They must be in a position to let us have the fulkst information regarding the whole transaction. If the thing is gnod, we will be forced to admit it. Seeing this is the first attempt on the part of the Government to control prices, and make the country people pay so that the townspeople may have a cheaper product, the whole thing ;;houJ.d be aboveboard, and the fullest information should be furnishe-d. I regret to say that, although the amendment of the Secr<Jtary for Public Lands goes some way in the diredion of providing information, it does not give us as full information ,as we should have. and therefore I shall have to vote, against 1t.

::>.Ir. DARKES (H'arll·ick): I am opposed ta this amendment for the simple reason that this House ond the countrv are entitled if> the verY fullest in£ormatioir that is obtain­able' in' connect;on with the m<.,tter. One can onlv be astounded that the Government

· did not seize this very happy [5 p.m.] opportunity of placing before the

House, and consequently the dairymen throughout the laed, inforn1ation regarding the whole transaction, which has been debated every now and again in this Chamber for many weeks pact. The only reason that has been given-and it has been gi> 2n in all scriou"ness-is that too much time would be taken up in p1·eparing the returns for the House.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLlC LANDS : You kno,,-., as a business man, that the figures wo propose to give you will give you all th~ information you should a k for or want, or an>rbody else.

Mr. BARNES: \Vhy n•t give them, then? \V e "ant them. I was going to suggest a very much simpler mode than that. If the Government have some objection to pre­paring a statement with regard to this butter matter, whv not table the actual returns receive<t by" them from their various agents? That is all we want. The Govi'rnment need go to no trouble, and the officers of the depart­ment need not be taxe·d beyond their strength. If the Government will simply lay upon the table of tho House the ongmal documents in conne<,(ion with tho·-.o varion~ tra.no;;action~. the House will have all the infonnation it wants, and we ask no more. I do not believe that ther,e is any stigma resting upon· tho Government in this connection, but a stigma y:ill rc st upon them unlee,s th> '€ documents are tabled, or a full and complete statement is mad:, in connection with this butter dealing infring'-cment in trade, and they should con­sequently ec,ize this opportunity of gladly

Government Butter [16 SEPTEMBER.] Transactions. 759

and cheerfully laying upon the table of the Honse the information which is at thr,ir di~­posal.

The Sr-RETARY FOR PGBLIO LANDS: Just be­cause you ask for it, whatever frivolouc, ques­tions you like to put, they will do it.

J'.Ir. BAR?\ES : This is not a frivolous quE"' tion. This is a transaction which has meant many thousands of P'Jund~ to some people, and those thousands of pounds which have been lost in one wav should have bePn dictribute,d amongst the dairynwn who wore the original ownerJ of that butter. I know mvc.clf that in one short month the \Varwick Ditiry Company lost to tho tune of £810 on account of the interference of th<' Govern­mont; and they naturally say, " \V <o want to know what has become of that money; we wnnt to know what 10d to that bungling, and who was responsible for the unbusinec.;­like procedure in connection therewith." Surely it is a simple reque,t to make, and I believe the Government will stand C<111-demned in the eyes of the dairymen until they produce every bit of information which is in their power in connection with this matter.

:\lr. GILLIES (Eacham): It is a wonder that the low wage, dear land party, other­wise the Country party, do not--

Mr. WALKER : That is not fair.

Mr. GILLIES: I do not care whether the han. member objects to it or not. It is a wonder that they did not tell this House that the price fixed by this Government as the wholesale price of butter was £3 13s. higher than the highest a\erage price for the last eight years. In fact, the price fixed by the board is the highest price on record in Queen81and.

Mr. BEBBINGTON · And what about the cost of production?

C\lr. GILLIES: I am dealing with the pric~ novY.

J\Ir. BEBBINGTON ; I am dealing with the cost of production,

::Jfr. GILLIES: I would like the hon. mem­be-r to take th.e ad vice of the hen. member for Lockyer, and rec,train himself for a moment He is not the onlv membn , in this Chamber who knows something about butter, and I refuse to allow the hon. member the right to voice the opinion, of the dairy farmers of Queensland in this Chamber. I cbim to know something about the farmers and I am going to tell the Housll someth;ng abuut the position, if the hem. member will b,, good enough to restrain himoe!f. It is a wonder that those people are not hone't or patriotic enough to tell this Home that the price fixed bv tho board appointed by thi3 Government Is £3 13s. higher than the hiyhest average price for the last eight years. I have tho figures from the Agricultural Department going back fer eight years, and taking the hig·hcst month-not the real aver­age, but the highest individual pricc-I llncl th tt the average wholesale price of butter is 125s. That is taking the highht price obtained in each of thoso eight years.

l\! r. VoWLES: \Yhat was the cost of pro­dtiCing it?

::\Ir. GILLIES: The cost of production has not gone up in the Fame pronortion. 'rhe price fixed by the board is 73s. per cwt., or 8d. per lb., higher than the highc9t aver­age price for the last eight years. I do not

bdicYe. under normal ccnditions. in fixing pri<:e;.:; by proclttnlation-I say jt is un:c-Jound and unsci<'ntific-but I refuse to bo!in,, that the' dair:v farmf'r of Qnc::nsland };, less patrjo~ ti<' than any other fanner or producer in this St:1tc. I arn going to qunte 'vhat one of the soldiers at the Dardanelles eaid in regard to this question of fixing prices.

:'.1r. ·wAcKER: \Vas he a Labourite?

:1\h. GILLIES: Most of our soldiers at the Dardanelles are Labouritos.

GOVERN:v!LNT MEMBERS: Hear, hear! OPPOSITION MEMBERS: No, no! Mr. GILLIES: I am quoting from a cir­

cular sent out by the British Immigration League, and, amongst other things, I find a quotation from a letter from a soldier at the Dardanelles. This is what the soldier says-

'\ From what I have heard at the front, it appears two matters just now are of the utmost importance. All men eligible should be compelled to serve in some capacity, and all the Governments of the Empire should immediately pass legis­lation limiting the profits on all neces­saries of life and munitions of war."

Mr. MooRE: These are not profits; these are losses. ·

Mr. GILLIES: Will the han. member deny the right of the Government to fix prices at this time to prevent the exploitation of the people by middlemen?

Mr. MooRE: Yes, when it is a question of. drought and not war.

Mr. GILLIES: We know verv well, from what the han. member for Oxley has told us this afternoon, that the speculator~ were largely responsible for increasing the price of butter and putting the profits in their pockets.

Han. J. TOLMIE : And his own firm, too.

Mr. GILLIES: The leader of the Oppo­sition should not be so personal; he should show a better example.

Han .. J, TOLII!IE: I know it,

Mr. GILLIES: I would like to quote from a very able article which appeared in the " Daily Standard " some few weeks ago on this question. I have not get the date of the article, but it appea_Jed to me so ID]ICh at the time that I cut 1t out. The art10le says-

" The late Denham Government most evidently acted upon the presumption that any rises in prices were due to general rather than special, conditions, and to 'allow things to remain was with them the correct policy.

"This was altogether wrong. War conditions are special conditions, and to leave the pricss of prime necessar~es of life to the sport of speculators was simply to allow the 1iforking people to be swindled out of a good portion of the value of their wagf'o-that is to say, of the price of their commodity, labour power. Leave the pri?es of ne_c<:'ssaries to rise through the spemal conditions, war, and the workers must either submit to a lower standard, to being cheated, in fact or strike for the higher pay. This would add domestic strife to the ex­ternal warfare. Evidently, as a war measure. governmental action on the matter is politic and necessary."

I think that is right. I maintain that to

Mr. GiU1:es.]

760 Government Butter [ASSEMBLY.] T1·ansactions.

attempt to fix pricPo by proclamation in nor:.:nal times is unsound and unscientific, and is going to discourage production, but the Government arc justified at this time in stepping in and trying to prevent speculators from robbing the people. jHear, hear !) I IYL::.intair1, further, that tho p1 ;ce fixed by the board for butter " as a price not in the interc,,,ts of the consumer ~tlone, because, if the boarJ had only conct'rned itself with the in'crcot' of the consumers, would thev have fixed the price at 2s. per lb. retail? I venture to say that if they were only con­cerned with the people who consume butter they would have fixed it at ls. per lb. For the last ten .\cars it has been about ls. per lb. rNail. But they did not do that, because the,- dbired to protect the producer as well as the consumE>r. I refuse to believe that the dairy farmer is not as patriotic as any other producer.

Mr. MOORE: It is not a <]Uestion of patriot­ism, but a qtwstion of living.

Mr. GILLIES: The dairy farmers on the Darling Do'Yns and other parts have had very hard times indeed. They should not have followed the advice of the hon. mem­ber for Drayton, who, two or three years ago, when the rural log bogey was keeping the farmers awake at night, told tne farmers on the Darling Downs to go on strike ; not to gro·g an,v fodder, but to pay off all their men and employ as few as possible. The hon. member gave that advi0e to the farmers on the Darling Downs.

JUr. BEBlllNGT0N : When did he tell them that? It is untrue, and you know it.

Mr. GILLIES: The hon. gentleman gave the farmers that advice through " Hansard" -he practicallv told the farmers to go on strike, and reftlse to grow fodder, with the result that th<> farml'l'S have had a very hard time indeed. I refuse to believe that the dairy farcner on the Darling Downs is less patriotic than anyhe>dy else. I am satiefied that he is prepared to make some sacrifice at this hour of the nation's trouble by being a liftle patient and waiting till better seasons come along.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: Feed the rich people of Brisbane at half-price. 'I'hat is not patriotic.

Mr. GILLIES: The hon. member's ac­tions durh1g this sAssion have entitled him to the title of " walking delegate."

The SPEAKER: Order !

Mr. GILLIES: I want to show hon. mem. hers on the other side who have cJOntributed to this debate, who, to our knowledge, are amongst the greatest advocates of low wagL>s, that we know the many workers could not afford to buy butter even at 196s. as fixed by the Government. Therefore, if the price of butter had been fixed at , a high<'~ price by the Government it naturally follows, as Mr. Hughes pointed out when introducing the war tax proposals-if men with low wages are to be taxed it means that the whole wage system of Australia ;;as to be revised. That is to say, if the prices of commodities go up from time to time then the wages paid by farmers and othPrs must go up in consequence. The hon. member who talks about the farmers being robbed is amongst those who believe in low warres.

Mr. BEBBINGTON : You know th~-t is in­correct.

Mr. GILLIES: In fact, the hon. member rloes not know the A B C of economics, other-

[ Mr. Gillies.

wise he 1Yould not have risen in his place in this Chamber and talked about butter being too low, for it is the workers of the world who find the market, when it is fixed at 196. wholesale. I would be one of the first to rise in my 11lace in this Chamber and pro­tc t if I thought ,,,mething was being dono bv this Government that would have the 0ffect-to HE"l the word' of the bon. member for Dravton-of "robbing the farmers." I desire t~ secure to the farmers all the assist­anec that this Government c:"n give them, and we have in our platform proposals that, if the, Opposition will allow us to place them m1 the statute-book of Queensland, will give the farmer the relief he wants and needs. We believe in cheap land.

The SPE_\KER: Order!

JYll-. GILLIES: We believe in doing away with landlords ; 1YC beJicye in 11 bolishing the f·hare-farm s~ stem.

ThP SPEAKER: Order! I hope the hon. member will confine himsPlf to the '1mend­mont.

Mr. GILLIES: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, but I did not know you were calling me to order. I will confine myself to the amend­ment and say that the Minister is justified in giving all rea:,onable information to members of this House, but when hon. members of the Opposition come along and endeavour to harass the Government by a~king for unrea­sonable returns--

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: No, no!

Mr. GILLIES: Returns that cannot pos­sibly do any good; that are going to cost money to furnish and take up the valuable time of the staff employed by the public of Quc':onsland, I say the Jl.1iniste- is quite justified in amending the resolution, and I support the amendment.

'" HoN. J. TOLMIE (Toowoomba) : I have listened with consi<lerable interest to the hon. member who has just sat down, and who is alwavs po3ing as the friend of the farmer. He has been a farmer, but has never been a farmer since he came to Queensland.

Mr. T. L. JONES: He took up a ready, made farm.

Ho;;. J. TOLMIE: I know exactly what the hon. member has done in regard to a prepared farm without any information being vouchsafed by the hon: member for Oxley, and perhaps I could grve some very interesting information with regard to the hon. memher if I desired. The hon. mem­ber, when he is making charges against hon. members on this side of the Chamber, should boar that in mind. This amendment is a deliberate attempt to sidetrack the motion. The assertion has been made that if the motion were carried it is going to entail a considerable amount of work on the officers of the department to prepare the return that is necep~ary. There would be no more work entailed on the officerr in preparing the first return than there is in preparing the second.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: You know that is not true. You must know it.

HoN. J. 'I'OLMIE: The facts are there. The SECRETA!lY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: If you

have the facts, you know it is"not true.

HoN. J. TOLMIE: This is a matt0r that has caused a very large amount of comment

Government Butter [ 16 SEPTEMBER.] Transactions. 76l

throughout the State of Queensland, and more particularly amongst the producers. Before tho elections took place it was 'tated that the high price of butter was due to certain gentlemen who WEOre members of this Chamber. They wore accused of being those persons -~d1 J were agent'J that were storing up

·butter; that they were filling their ware­houses with butter to the -detriment of the people of Queensland and of this city of Brisbane in particular. Tho<se who \Yore making the charges knew absolutely that there \ns no butter being hClld by those gentlemen, that they were not the class of a!(ent that .'tared up butler. 'I'hat was the charge that was hurlecl against han. mem­bers of th;,, Chamber who are no longer here, and now that they are no longer hem an-d other gentlemen haye taken their places, there is an .attempt to protect those who are agents and who were handling butter. If the GoYernment believed it was wrong at the time, they had a legal way of proceeding in connection with the matter, and they did not proceed along what was strictly legal line9. They simply used the power that they possessed to try and hluff the holders of butter into selling their produce. They came into the market as purchasers, and they bought a certain quantity of butter at a price that was lower than the producers could obtain for it elsewhere, and at a lower price that. those gentlemen well knew the

' producers were entitled to seek and to obtain if they desired. But they came in and bluffed J;he producers into selling t,he butter at a reduced price, und then, in the terms of the motion, they commancleere-d that but­ter and sent it to Melbourne and they made a Yer:-· large profit-a profit equal to n very considerable amount of monev. That was the first butter that they commandeered. But they came along again and purchased butter. In the meantime tbe warkel had dropped; the bottom had fallen out of it, and they found themselves nippe-d. The quantity of butter that they bought was so large that they made a considerable loss in the disposal of it, and now the iclca of ~he Minister in sidetracking the motion, as he has done, is to equalise that loss, so that they may appear to the people of Queensland to be fairly good financiers. The .object in moving the motion was that the Government should show to the ·countrv what thev did in regard to each of the butter transactions in which they were imnlicate-d. It is a fair thing to ask that such should be the case. They came into the businpss and took from the producers a considerable amount of money that belonged to them-took a sum of money amounting tn several thousan-d pounds that rightly belonged to the producers. If any­body else were to do that, there would be a very ugly name applied to him for doing so. But here this Government come in, an-d with­out a justification on their si-de they take the butter. they make a huge profit on it, and then they think that they are going to con­tinue to embark in the butter business. They find it a lucrative business to embark in when they can force then own producers in the State of Queensland t<l sell to them at a price which is lower than the Southern market price, and they can send that butter to the South and continue to make a profit, and perhape assist in financing the country in that way. It may be a good way from the point of view .. of hon. members opposite. It may be the best they kno;v how to -devise.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIO LANDS : That is worthy of you.

Ho>r. J. TOLMIE: However, up to the present time it has been the only way in which they have financed it. But we con­tend that it is an improper way, and we contend that these butter transactions should be open and aboveboard.. Now, w_ha~ have the Govoc·nment got to h1de? Thmr Incom­petency. I do not think it goes beyond that. I haYo known han. members on the other side, some of them for many years, and I would not charge them with anything be­vond that nor do I think any person in this Hous~ or outside would do so.

Han. J. A. FIHELLY: You charged them on the 22m! May, you know

HoN .• J. 'I'OL~IIE: We simply charge you in connection with this "matter with incom· potency.

Han. J. A. FIHELLY: You charged us on the 22nd May, anyhow.

HoN. J. TOLMIE; No; it was the price of butter. I am sorry that I have not got the arguments of the han. member here now.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: That is what the country on the 22nd May found your party guilty of-incompetency.

Ho>r. J. TOLMIE: We will put it at that if the han. member likes it; but here is their first actwn. 'I'he first act of the Go­vernment has been an act of incompetency, and that is what the> desire to hide. It would be much better 'for them to come out into the open and say : "We made a mistake in dealing with our own producers in the way we have done. \Ve recognise that the man on the land is in a difficult position, and we are sorry that we made this mistake. We will show what has been the result. We undoubtedly show a profit on our first or second transaction, but on other transaction~ we show a loss, and we are just trying to equalise it so that the State is not going to suffer. It just happens that in this process one c1ass of people in Queensland have got to suffer, and they are a long-suffering class. Thev are the men on the land, the men who pay· for everything. \Ve perhaps have dealt with them in the way we hav0 done because thev haYe not been so insistent as other pe~ple." I think that the hon. member, in attempting to sidetrack the question as he is, is not doing justice to himself. He is eer­tainlv not dQing jm.tice to his Government. He ;ightly contends th>:t much of ~he i':'for­mation which is asked m the questwns 1s to be given by the amendment ; but i! han. members veil! look at the terms of h1s pro­pam! thev will find that he wants to average it all, as "r said, so as to equalise his losses and hide, if possible, from the general public the blunder that was made when there was an illegal commandeering of the produce of the producers in this State of Queensland. I think it would be better for the han. member to disclose the information that is wught. For him to say that there is more difficulty in preparing a return under the conditions set forth in the motion than in the amendment is simply burking the question. Look at the various amendments he proposes ! Con­trast them with the questions that are asked in the motion. In order, for instance, to get the average price he has got to deal with all butter that was bought; he has got to deal with all the butter that was sold. Then he has to deal with the agencies and the

Han. J. Tolmie.l

762 Government Butte1· [ ASSEiYIBL Y.] Transactions.

quantities they bought and sold. The ques­tiOns asked by the hon. member for Rose­wood are fc,w and simple and are drafted with the desire of obtaining a clear exposi­tion of the situation.

Hon. J. A. I<'IHELf,Y: You are making i~ as clear as mud.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : He is proving nothing, at any rate.

HoN. J. TOLMIE: I am proving that the Government have done something of whicb they, as a Government, ought to be ashamed, and, having done that, they are attmnpting to hide the information that should be given to the public. That is quite clear, and any assertion made by the hon. member, who has such a wide acquaintance with mud and matter of that nature, is not going to have any effect on me. In conclusion, I can only reiterate what I have already said, that, unless the Government can show that their hands are clean in the way in which they have treated the farmers of this country, then their conduct has been reprehensible.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS rose to speak.

The SPEAKER: The hon. member has already spoken. He cannot reply.

Question-That the words proposed to be omitted (Jd:r. Hunter's amendrnent) stand part of the question-put and negatived.

Question-That the words proposed to be inserted be so inserted-put; and the House divided:-

Mr. Armfield Barber Bertram

, Carter Collins

,, Coyne , Dunstan

Fihrl!y , Foley ,, Free , Gilday

Gillies , Gled.son

Hardacre , Hartlry, H. L. , Hartley, W.

AYES, 32. Mr. Hunter , Land , , I~arrom be ,, Lennon , May , lVIcMinn , McPhail , O'Sullivan ,, PC''-erson , Pollock , R:;an, D. , Ryaa, H. J. , Smith , ThC'odore , Wellington , "\Vinstanlev

Tellers: Mr. Carter and Mr. Pete~son.

:Mr. Armstrong Ba~.·nes

, Bebbington Booker

, Bridges ., Grayson

:lfoore

NoEs, 14. Mr. Petrie ,. Hoberts

~todart Rwayne

, Tolmie , Yowles , \.VnJker

Tel'ers: Mr. Grayrnn and. 1\fr. Moore.

PAIRS.

..:\yC's~)fr. Bowman. Mr. Payne, Mr. Adamson, and ~fr. T .. T. Hyan.

Nops-:J.fr. lHacartnc:;-, 3-fr. Somerset, :Mr. Bell, and ::Ur. Bayley.

Resolved in the affirmative. Question, as amended, st1t0d.

Tho SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I desire, before the amended question goes to a vote, to stc1te, in answer to the expressed wish of the hon. member for Lockyer, that

the intention of the Government [5.30 p.m.] regarding the surplus butter will

be made known later on. It is not known just yet, as the Government have

[Han. J. Tolmie.

not considered w1wt course will be adopted, but thev mav be trusted to do a fair thing bv tlw dairyrncn.

, :Mr. BEBBINGTON: They have not done it vet.

, The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Tho Government intend to deal as fairly with tho dairymen as they deal with any oUwr portion 'of the communit:;, and when this thing is wound up they \Vlll have noth­irw to he ashamed of. If anyone has any­thfno· to be ashamed of in connection with this" matter it is the members sitting in opposition, ;vho are trying to J?ake polit~cal capital out of it-to do somethm,g. to r·etneve m a small way their lost pohtrca] power. The hon. member said that speculators m Bri,banc were able to make a profit by t~e action of the Government, and, finally, rt was made clear that he referred to tlie Queeneland Government. The Queensland Government are not speculators, but are simply arbitrators between the produce~ and the consumer, and the surplus butter wrll be dealt with in a manner that will perfectly satisfy members on both sides of the House. On account of the way in which speculators v, ere acting, it was nece€sary thac the qo­vernment should take the action they d1•d. Before concluding, I should like to refer briefly to the items which have been left out of the return asked for in the original motion and I wish to do w in order to show 1-he un~ocessarv and inquisitorial natu1~e of the request. The first item. omitted is ''The orice paid for each respective lot purchased, and the price obtctined for each lot S?ld. ;; The next is " The date of each transactiOn, and the next ie "The amount pa;d t'? the Government brokers." I mention these rte~s to show how unnc,cessary they are; they wrll involve a lot of unnecessary work, and en­cumber the return.

Mr, ARMSTRONG: I rise to a point of order. The Secretary for Public Lands is now discussing a matter that has already b<;len decided by the House, and I ask your rulmg as to whether he is in order in doing so?

The SPEAKER: The hon. member must confino his remarks to the question now before the }louse.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I just wish to S<J.V that it was for that reason that the amendment was moved. This is not the f1r··t time th<J.t it has been necessary to move a similar amendment. One hon. mem­i,er op:1osito asked for a return which would have taken twelve months to prepare, and would have occup;ed 200 foolscap pages. \Vh9n I placed the matter before him, he arrn:ed that it was unneces·•,ary to get all the infonnation ao:;kcd for, and "\Villingly agreed to an amendment of his motion. :Members do ~nmetirnes ask for returns which arc unnecessary, and it was because that >vas done in this instance that we obJected t<J the motion. But all the information that any reasonable body of men should ask for-that is, the [(r0£3 results-will be given, so that the public may see exactly »·hat the. transac­tions cover, the amount of money mvolv(;d, and the actual profit or loss. Nobody wants to audit the Government books in regard to this matter, nobody suspects that the Govern­ment have been guilty of any dishonest trans­action. Everything has been perfectly above­board, and what the Gm'err>ment have done they are prepared to stand oy.

Motion, as amended, put and passed.

Government Assistance for [16 SEPTEMBER.] Roads in Agricultttral Districts. 763

GOVERNlVIEXT ASSISTANCE FOR ROADS I="J AGRICULT"CRAL DIS­

THICTS.

Mr. :'\IOORE (.luuigny), in moYing~ "Th;:d, with a Yiew to cheapening the

cost of living and encouraging dosrr settlc1nent, tho Governmrnt grant a'•')i,·t­ance in n!ak-ing 1nain roads in agricul­tural districts,''

said: I hayc much pleasure in placing this motion before hon. members this afternoon, and I hope it will ha Ye thG desired effect. We ail know that at the present time, and, inde0d, at all times, our roads are as impor­tant as our railwan. l think that has been recognised, not only by members on this side of the House, but by members on the other side also, bcrause, in tho Premie'r's speech, -delivered at Barcaldine, we Jind the fol':nv­ing:~

" If returned with a majority, the L1bour party will, in additioe1 tD making more 'land aYailable for immediate occu­patiou bv those who require it, also undertake to cope with the problem of bad roads. It is recognised in many parts of the State where our most fertile land is situated, one of the gmate't difficul­ties with which the early settlers are faced is the inaccE·ssibilitv of their land through lack of roads. 'This difficulty the Labour party will endea' our to oYer­come by haYing roads constructed from the noa:est railwa; into all areas of land thrown open for e selection."

I have narrowed that down in my motion, as I think we should only ask for a!lsistance for main roads, while the shire councils will be able to look after the side roads. The main roads are really feeders to the railway, and unlc 'eS tho roads are good the railways will not show a proiit. \Vhen w0 get good roads int-o the agricultural districts from the ter­mini of the railwavs. it will mean that our rail wac s will boeonie ·very proiitable. At the present time it is almo:,t impossible for a farmer to get far from the roadll. because of th.: prohibitive price for carting. In the country districts the average price for Cilrting is ls. per ton per milo. Not long ago tho question of electrifying the Government rai: · ways in Victoria cropped up, and the Go­vernment oapitdised the saving in tim.: that would we made by the adoption of electric supply in place of steam, and it was found that the s2ving would amount to Pbout £3,000,oro. Wh".t would the saving be if in Que-ensland we capitalised the time that would be saved in cartage, as wt>ll as the cost of getting to market, by making good roads? In In any in ;tanc2~~ t\vo days "\Yould b•e saved to the farmer bringing in his pro­tlucn over a goDd road, as con1parf'd with one who was u1mpelhd to usc a bc,d road. Owing to th2 abs•ence Df good roads, the settler-. ar.• forced out into thP countrv dis­trict.', instead of being near the ports -;,here the prorlw:c will be sold. It also means that tho settlers cannot Jind profitable occupations for their sons nPar at hand, with the result that they h,:vo to go further out or com., into the cities. I contend that the grecdeo,t problem we have to deal with at the pr•"ent time is the one of roads. One of the greatc,t reasons for tho congestion in the cities is the bad roads in the country. Tasmania is the State "' hich has spent the most on

roadg, while Victoria has spent the •·mallest amount. In Tasmania only 16 or 18 per cent-. of the population is in the 'town.•,. while in Victoriu 44 per cent. of tho population is in th~~ to-..vns. 1'\o rnattcr ,vh-r:re :vou go~ it is always the same thing. 'l'h•J bettm: thy road' theY ha\·o in the c .tmtrv the ea .. 1cr 1t is for the. people to live, "" th-,.y have bAter comforh;. and there arc better schoole, and the people arc more satisiicd. In Victoria many y~ars ago the roads were so bad in the fruitgrowing' districts that the people could not get more than 5 miles from the raihvav. The Government stepped in~ and mack 'good roads, with the result that the fruitgrm• C'rs c:m now go out 10 or 15 miles from the railway. There they have mot.or lor des in use; but it would be absolutely impossible to use motor !mTic·· on the bad roads we haYe in Queensland at the present tim<:. The i·oads should be made to give quick tran•·it. I con idor it is cheaper to borrow money and build good roads in the Jirst p!aeo than it is to go on patching the roads in the \vav we a;·e doing at the pre­sent time. \Ve all' !mow that the shire councils are doing the best they can with the limited amount cJf capital they "have at their disposal. It is most difficult, when they have large areas of roads to keep up, to make it possible for settlement to take place in many districts. I happC'n to live in a local authority area which ha·· 3,000 miles of roads to maintain, or at least to make traf!ickable, so that the people can get over them. 0!-'r ~ot::l reve~me is £4,000 a yr ar, so that 1t 1s Impossible to make a good nnin road with that money. "Cntil we have good main roads, the traffic to the railwa>;; will never be what it should be. \Vo cam:{ot expect people to go into the country if they have to go to place' of isola­tion. I know some places where people are settled, and they have neYer seen a train.

::'I:Ir. PETERSOX : 'Yhat '·'ere the last Go· vennt1ent doing?

Mr. MOORE: The late Government did not have a policy to grant subsidies or assist. ance for making main roads, but the pre­sent GovPrnmcnt haYe that policy in their programme.

]\;Ir. APPEL: Because the late Government did not propose to extend the franchise or impose land taxution.

:'VIr. MOORE: If W8 got the subsidy, there was to be an extended franchise. The pre­sent Gov..t·nment are going to extend the franchi,e, and therefore I have no hesitation ' in asking for a53istance for the main roads. I do not believe in the roads policy which exists in ;'\ ew South \Vales. It should be left to the Lands Department. In New South Wales the board has to get all the infmma­tion from the Lands Department. The Lands Department is the proper authority to deul with the roads, because that department knows just where the valuable lands arc and which is the proper place to make the road. 'l.'hey can then issue a proclamation saying where the road is to be. If we had a roads . policy now it v:ould give employment to a lot of men who are out of employment at the present time. Tho Premier went to the deputation at the Tradec Hall the other day, and he told them that the Government could no! get on with the railways because of the want of steel rails. In the question of main roads there is no quco.tion of being stuck up for steel rails. The Government should go

Mr. "l{oore.]

764 Government Ass,istance for [ASSEMBLY.] Roads in Agricultw·al Districts.

in for suitable road-making machinery as it is too expensive for the individual coun­cils to buy for themsPlves. because they could not keep it in full use. If the Government got the m:whincry and lent it to the various

·Councils it would at least pay the interest on the cost of it. There is no doubt the main roads hu,ve got to be made economically and C'\refully, and the work should be carried

.out by experts. That can only be done by proper economical road making. If we go in for. a proper SJ- ~t0n1 of 1naking main roads, we wtll make available hundreds of thou­sands of acres of land which is at present unayailable owing to its inac<Jessibility to markets. \Vo want to settle more people ,nearer to the port3 where the market is. At present., owing to people having to go out into the country, it is reclmnecl that it ;os~s £60 per family of five for railway 11'G1ghts and cartage in the course of a year. lYe do not want ac,,,istance for all Toads, but only for main roads where the land is avail­able. It is no use putting men out in the country where they have wretched land, and no wator, and where they are not accessible to markets. Only 20 miles from Kingaroy it would cost £1 5s. per ton to carry corn to the railway, and at that price it would not pay to grow it. It will be admitted by all that not only in Queensland but throughout Australia the agitation for good roads is growing. The mode of transit is altering from horse traction to motor traction. People aro moving about more, and they requirr,

'better roads to travel more quickly, and it is unreasonable to mopect shire councils to make provision for roads suitable for carry­ing this kind of traffic. When the Governor was opening the last conference of local authoritieo at Bouth Brisbane, in advocating the construction of good roads he said that he did not :wish to trespass upon political problems, but he thought he was quite within his rights in saying that he thought the local authorities should be acsisted in the construction of main roads. The shire coun­

·cils should attend to main roads which ran parallel with railways, but where they ran out as feeders to the rnilways and brought traffic to them, it was reasonable to ask for Government assistance, as the inmeasecl pro­

·duce to be carried by the railways would make th~m pay better than they did at the present ttme. It would also encourage settle­ment, and in Queensland we all know how .much settlement needs to be encouraged. "T e have far too many people in the cities. Right throughout Australia the population in the cities is in excess of what is should be when compared with the population in the rural districts, and that leads to con­ge,•tion. In New South \Vales, for instance,

·everything is being dragged to S:vclney by the railways, with the result that f,here is a tremendous amount of congestion there. The same state of affairs exists in Victoria. In that St~te they have several good ports, but everythmg has been centralised in Mel­bourne. In some parts of Victoria they have

, splendid roads. In. Tasmania, where they have the best roads m Australasia, you have !' smaller proportion of the population settled m the towns and a far larger rural popula­tion. Queensland stands about third in re­gard to centralisation of the population in the towns. The total loan e'Cpencliture in the Commonwealth on roads and bridges up to 3Cth ,J Ulll', 1914. was £8 961,280. In New South Wal.es it was £1.862,629; in Victoria,

_£176,475; m Queensland, £923,656; in South Australia, £1,482,574; in Western Australia,

[.ilfr. Moore.

£301,244; and in Tasmania, £4,214,702. Tas· mania has spent by far the largest amount on roads, and it is recognised that that State has the best roads in Australasia, and on that acqount they nave also a larger propor­tionate rural population, and it stands to reason that that must be the result of making the country cli-tricts more accessible.

Mr. HAY: A lot of the roads in Tasmania were built wit11 convict labour.

Mr. ?v100P-E: It clou not matter who built them, they have enabled a large rural ponulation to be sdtlecl there. \Ve will not get a large population ccttlecl in the country districts unless we have better roads. The more people we can encourage to settle in the country the more products >Ve shall have, and if by means of good roads the ettlers are able to get their produce ch("aply to market, peo;olc will be able to Jiye chcap,er in tho citir,. I do not want to labour the que,tion. which is one on whieh we are all practically agrePd. I only want the Govern­ment to try to find some method- whereby thev will not onlv find work for tho nnem­plo)·ed but will a·lso increase the amount of settlement in the rural di,trict.-.

HONO'CRARLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear !

Mr. BF.BBIKGTON: I have much plea­sure in seconding the motion, because I be­lieve it carries out what was really a pro­mise made by the late Government.

Mr. GrLI.lES·: When did they make that prornise?

Mr. BEBBU-;GTON: The royalty reneived from timber in Qu~ensland amounts to some­thing like ;{)75,000 per annum, and the late Government promis<>cl to set aside 10 per cent. of that revenue for the construction of roads in tho timber districts, contributing £1 for every £1 found by the shire councils.

'I'he TREASC'HER: That would be £7,500 per annum. That would not build one road.

Mr. BEBBIKCTON: If only on<> good road was built every year, it would very soon result in a big improvement on the present state of affairs. It is the Govern­ment alone who profit from the royalty on timber. The timber traffic cuts up the roads to such an extent that it is very difficult in­dec! to travel ove1· them in a motor-car.

Mr. LARCOMBE (J{epprl): I listened with considerable interest to the hon. mem­ber who submitted the motion, and I must "ay that his speech was a very striking indict­ment of the prev;ous Liberal Administra­tion. 'I'he hon. member referred to the iso­lation and the desolation resulting hom the want of roads in Queensland. To judge by the discussion earlier in the afternoon, one would have thought that all that was neces­sary to reduce the cost. of living was to pro­duce a few papers from the Lands Denart­ment; but apparently something more is required, and that is good roads.

Mr. APPEl,: Don't you want good roads~

Mr. LARCO::i-IBE: Certainly. Is there any member of this Chamber who has stood up more for good roads than I have? The first year I was here I quoted statistics on the subject for every State in the Common­wealth. I am sure that hon. members on the other side will be pleased to accept an improvement on their motion, and I, there-

Metropolitan Water, Etc., Bill. [16 SEPTEMBER.] Workers' Compensation Bill. 76&

fore, move the omission of all the words after "That," with the view of inserting the fol­lowing:-

" the declared policy of the Government to undertake to cope with the problem of bad roads is heartily endorsed by this House·.''

That policy is contained in the Barcaldine programme.

GOVEH":I!ENT J\1E>IBEHS: Hear, hear! Mr. GILLIES CEacham): I have much

pleasure in seconding the amendmPnt.

At 7 o'clock the House, in acc01·dance witn Sessional Order, proceeded 11!iih Gnvrrnmeni business.

METROPOLITAN WATER SUPPLY AND SEWERAGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

I!([ITJATION.

'I'hc SECRETARY FOR FC:BLIC WORKS (Hon. E. G. Theodore, Chillagoe), in mov­ing-

" That the House will, at its next sit­ting, resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to comider of the desirable­ness of intmducing a Bill to amend the Metropolitan Water and Sewerage Acts, 1909-1912. in certain particulars,"

said: It is the intention in this Bill to cor­rect certain anomalies that have been dis­covered in the administration of the old Act., to improve the .\ct in certain weaknesses that have been found in it, and also to make provision for broadening the franchise under which the members of the Mftropolitan \Vater and Sewerage Board are elected. It is also provided that the sewerage work shall come under the Mines Regulation Act in certain particulars with regard to the inspection of works and the protection of the lives and limbs of those who are employed on sewerage work. (Hear, hear!) At pre­sent they are not subject to any rule or regulation which ,,afeguards the i11terests of those who are engaged on those works. As the Mines Regulation Act does not extend to the operations carried on by the sewerage works contractors, it was thought neces­sary to make some provision in order that the Government might have the super­vision of t,hese works. Those are the main objects of the Bill.

Mr. APPEL (Alb1 rt) : The Minister has spoken about widening the franchise. Might I ask him if he proposes in that connection to grant a vote to residents who are non­payers of water and sewerage rates?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: At pre­sent there are some residents who are non­payers, but it is the intention to give them the electoral franchise.

Mr. APPEL: That practically means that a large number of people will be added to the roll who are paying no rates at all. I simply wanted the information. There is one matter which will receive my very cordial support; that is, that works in connection with the \Vater and Sewerage Board should be placed under the Mines Regulation Act. During my tenure of office as Secretary for Mines I had an exhaustive report prepared as to the wa~· in which this work was being carried out, and that report indicated clearly that the precautions were not being taken

which would have to be taken if it was a mining operation. I submitted that reJ~ort, naturally, to the \Vater and Sewerage Board, because we had no legislative power to do anything else, and I concluded that they would take the necessary action, so far as the contra-Ctor' were concerned, to see that those regulations were enforced, because un­questionably they should be. Although by a legal opinion it was ruled that they did not come under the scope of those regulations, vet the operations carried on are in some instances even more, dangerous than the operations in many of the mines.

Mr. BERTHAM : \Vhy did your Government not take some steps to remedy that?

Mr. APPEL: This was at the latter end of last session. (Government laughter.) No opportunity was offered, but I am simply mentioning the fact that it was not over­looked by the late Admillistration, and I shall give my cordial snpport to the Minis­ter in this particular legislation whereby he proposes that any operations that are carried on shaJl come under the mining regulations, so that the limbs and lives of those who are engaged in the work shall be safeguarded in every possible way. So far as the exten­sion of the franchise is concerned, I shall possibly have mmething to say on that sub­ject.

The SECRETAHY FOH PuBLIC \YORKS: Of course, you are a State socialist. ~r. APPEL: Quite so; but the principle

of democracv is that there should be no taxation without representation. If the hon. member is correct in what he says, he pro­poses to transpose that, and say that there shall be repre>>entation without taxation. However, I do not intend to delay the House ; I simply rose for the purpose of offering the few remarks which I have made. As a State socialist and drmocrat I propose, as far as I am concerned, to see that that principle of democracy is carried out, al­thoug-h I am aware that with the majority which hon. members on the Government benches have, my protest will probably be like water on a duck's back. (Laughter.)

Question put and pas,ed.

'\VORKERS' COMPENSATION BILL.

THIRD READING.

BoN. J. A. FIHELLY (Padd;ngton): I move that the Bill be now read a third time.

Mr. SWAYNE (Virani): I was one of those who called "Not formal" to this motion this afternoon, because I consider there is a very grave omission in connection with the Bill, and one which should be re­medied before it leaves this Chamber. It will be noted that one section of Government employees are not included in the provision for compensation. The Government em­ployees for whom, if any, provision of that kind should be made for their dependants, are those I have in view-the police.

Bon. J. A. FHIE!.LY: You voted against the amendment which induded anybody.

Mr. SWAYNE: I intended to speak on the clause relating to this matter in Com­mittee, but through the gagging tactics of the Government. who were evidently not desirous that this question should be fully discussed, I was preyented from speaking. That is another reason why I take this op­portunity to refe~ to the matter. In relation

lrir. Swayne.]

766 Workers' Compensation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Workers' Comptnsalion Bill.

to this question the Minister read the pro­Yisions of the Police Act, showing what pro­vision was already made for the police, but on looking up the Act I find that such pro­vision is most inadequate compared with the provision that other sections of Government employees get under the Bill. Section 10 of the Police Act Amendment Act reads-

" If a member of the Police Force not otherwise entitled to a superannuation allowance receiyes m the discharge of his public duty, ~nd without his own fault, such bodily mjury as in the opinion of the Governor in Council incapacitates him from the further discharge of his duties, and he is thereby compelled to retire,"

and so on, 'I'he .amount which he is to get is largely optional, and there is this dis­ability. That does not exist in this Bill for the others, if through his own fault there is nothing for him or his family.

The SPEAKER: I must inform the han. member that onlv verbal amendments can be' moved in a Bi'll at this stage. The ques­tion now is " That the Bill be now read a. third time," and amendments may be moved to that que·,tion.

Mr. SIVA YNE: To make myself in order I bc·g to move~~

Mr. ARMSTRONG : Say you will conclude by moving an amendment.

::VIr. SWAYNE: Before moving the amendment I wish to give my reasons for the action that I am taking in moving the .amendment. The amendment which I have in view is the inclusion of members of the Poli, o Force with other Government em­ployees who art: dEeJt with in the- Bill.

Ron. J. A. FIHELLY: That is not Ill

ordzr.

Mr. S\V AYi\E: I might mention that the comvom,ation that doucndants are entitled to undc'r tho Bill, ''; proposed by the I\IinietC'r, is quite sufficient to meet most { ""es, but is moct inadequo,te for other mr,m­bers of the public scnicc if anything happens tc> them. It has been pointed out by the }Iinistcr~ho aeknowledged that tl1ere was ;an oversight and that it would be put right in another ph>ce.

Ron. J. A. FIIIELLY: I never s:1id anything of the c ll't. I said I was prepared to meet any reasonable suggestion from the Opposi~ tion.

~Ir. S\VA Y~E: I certainly think hopes were hold out that this oversight would be rectified elsewhere.

Ron. J. A. FIHELLY: You would not accept it

Mr. SWAYNE: That being the case, I think it is a reflection that this House should depend on another place, which the GoYcrnment party propose to abolish alto­gether-that we should depend on them to make good any neglect on our part.

IIox. J. A. FIHELLY: I rise to a point of ardor. I ask: Is the hon. member in order in speaking without moving an amend­ment? I put it this way to you, Sir, that his amendment might be entirely out of order, and it ,,-ill be wasting the time of th'ol House to speak at some length when the amendment forecasted has nothing to do ;vith the question at issue.

[Mr. 81Jlayne.

The SPE.t'..KER : The han. member has outlined his amendment, and I must say tha.t if he intends to move for the inclusion of members of the Polic,, Force, that the amendment will not be in order.

Mr. SWAYNE: The matter of the police is dealt with in the Bill.

The SPEAKER: Order ! I point out to the hon. member that under Standing Order Ko. 269-

" Verbal amendments, but no other, may be made to a Bill on the third read­ing; but the Order of the Day for the third reading may be discharged, and the Bill, in respect to the whole or any part, may be recommitted, when a.ny amendments, of which notice has been given, may be made."

Verbal amendments may be proposed on the third reading, but the amendment suggested by the hon. member is not a verbal amend­ment; it proposes a drastic alteration of the Bill. The question is, as I have already statnd, "That the Bill be now read a third time." The hon, member may propose to amend that by moving that the word "now" b:J omitted and he mav speak on that ques­tion ; but I suggest that he confine him9elf to reaMms why the Bill should not be read a third time, if he does not propose to move an amendment.

Mr. SWAYNE: To put myself in order I propose to move that the third reading of this Bill be deferred, and that the clause I have spoken on be recommitted.

The SPEAKER : Order !

Mr. SWAYNE: I beg to move that the Order of the Da v for the third reading 0f this Bill be postponed for three months.

The SPEAKER: I ask the hon. member to put the amendment in writing.

Mr. SWAYNE: I think the Bill is most incomplete, and my object in moving this amPndment is that there shall be further time given to consider the matter. I trust thaL during that time the Government will see that some an1endn1ent is n1ade to provide adequate compensation to the dependants of those I haYe in view, I may say in regard to the situation of the police in the matter, that eases have come under my notice where they have lost their livoe·, and the only pro­vision that could be made for their depen­dents is a sum far lo"s than the £600 that is provided for in the Bill. The Police Act states that in no case ,hall the compen­sation, in the event of death, be more than one year's pay. How many members of the Police Force arc getting a salary equal to £600 a vear? If the dependants of the ordinary 'public servant are entitled to an amount of £600 when their breadwinner dies, then most certainly tho children and widow of a policeman who is murdPred in the execution of his duh are entitled to a like sum. I noticed the' other day where 'a. man risked his life, and it was by merest chance that he escaped with it. His action was so brave that a public testimonial was got up on his behalf, but if he had got killed at the time all his dependants would have got would have been less than £200. If that man had lost his life his dependants should have been entitled to the full amount provided in the Bill.

The SPEAKER : I suggest to the hon. member that the amendment handed to me

Workers' Compensation Bill. [16 SEPTEMBER.] Workers' Compensation Bill. 767

is not written out correctls- The correct method would be to move the omission of the word ''now " and add to the question '' this day six: months" or "this day three months."' The amendment will not be in -order as stated here.

Mr. BAR::\'ES : I nse to support the amendment.

Mr. \VrxSTANLEY: There is no amendment.

Mr. BARNES: Tho amendment is-­

lion. J. A. FIHELLY : It might be out of order.

The SECRETARY FOE PUBLIC LANDS: No amendment has been stated to the House.

.Mr. AR:USTEO:-!G: The hon. member is ris­ing to second tho amendment. He is per­fectly in order in seconding the amendment. It mu·t be seconded.

The SPEAKER: Order ! Mr. Barnes.

0PPOSITI0N MEMBERS: Eear. hea~!

::'IIr. BARNES: I rise to support the .amendment, because it seems to ma wise that this ) .. ssemblv should have an opportunity of pausing . before it passes legislation of the de•·tructJVe nature of the Btl! which is now before the House. Quite a stir of feel­ing throughout the commuetitv has bPen brought about as a result of the introducti~n and the passing· this far, of this measure: Like c;ther membero, I receiYed telegrams re·gardmg the mcasare before the House. ·They were not all like each other. Certainly, many of them referred to the objection to the Goyernment monopolising the accident insurance of the land, but others went a o-reat deal fnrther than that, and it is th~"' far­reachmg nature of the proposals of this Bill_, the wiping out at one stroke of a big bus.JnesG concern or n1any busine-;s concerns whiCh haYc tal~Pn yc.ars i?- the making, aJ.-::d the' general th~turbntg Influence -which i~ being brought forward which mav be said to iiLd Yoice in a teleg;~am such as" this-

.. Quite think disturbing leo-islation should eericainly not be introduc~d ,, hen bone and man:ow of ~mpire so deeply concerned. Tlus apphes to \Yorkers' Compensation Bill."

But apart from 1 hat, as showino- the nature <Jf the feeling which hae been m~gE'ndered in the commercial community of Brisbane, quite ncar home, I hanJ only to read a reeolution which was pas,cd by the Federation of Em­ployer~ of Queensland this afternoon, a copy of wluch has been sent to the Premier. It reads-

'· That, in the ~pinion of this meeting of employers, the action of the Govern­ment ia creating a State insurance mono­poly _is not calcuhted to promote the be>t mterests of the community."

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LANDS: They all say that.

Mr. BAR:\"ES: It is simply on aceount of the far and wide-reaching nature of the in­fluence d this moa'uro that I just fear tho Government require further time to con­sider it bcefore the:r find themselves aho in a disturbed ~tate becau.:;o of t~1e influences >dtich will be broug·ht about by tho intro-

duction of such a law to the statuto-books. Only yesterday the Premier of Queensland indicated that lw would give consideration to tho wisdom of holding this measure over for the prc';ent. Rospon.,ible and leading men; hers of the communitv are alarmed at the· damaging nature of this propo a!. and I am glad that. now that tho Premier is son:ew:1at t'emo,-ed from the contact with his colleagues, he begin.; to realise that a yery big mistake has been made bv the introduction of such a measure. It is ,o;•idont that tho Government have failed to realise what the efff ~t >Yill be upon thosP loading principles which arc the foundation of all progress an 1 prosperity, and all pr<>='l- erity '1; hlch 've can hop a to have in the future-the confidence of the p<'ople. By the introdndion of this measure, the Go­Yt!rnrrlcnt are 1naking for discourag·>;ment and want of confidence, and we all know what that is going to mean in the future. Now, have the Gonlrnmcnt considered the effeet, tho broad effect, which this ]egi 'la­tion is going to have, generally speak1ng, on the community? This kind of legislation is not going to make for confideHCC. 'What man on that "ide of the House, what man in Queensland at the present time. would drearn of ernbarking on auy enterprise with this lE'gi;;lation before ihi; House, of ever throwing himself or his c-apital into any undertaking when such a state of uncer­t:iint:v prevails 1 \V e realise that >vo are en­tirely dependent on capital; we are not yet clear from the use of capital, and the gentle­man who eontroh capital is a pretty sensi­tive mortal, and there is no man "ho knows that bettor just now, or has realised it to a greater extent. than the' present Premier. He has got to know more during the last three months of the sensitive nature of rapitcd than in the whole of his lifetime preceding, and "c can see that he is desirous of proceeding on cautions lines. I want to "'Y that every man in this countrv is d,,pcn­dent on tho d0velopmC'nt of the c'ountrv. It i; ali wry ;veil to talk ,f high wages, but \"hat ( .'lrthly gcod is a hir-h \Yage' if there is no Pmplo~Trncnt, and if there• is no capital t<:J. get employment how are yo•l going to bt:n"; about th0 ,tate of thin&;s which one wtshes· to sec? \Yhy, the daily Press for '•Jme weeks now hc.s been full of th" idc:-c of cx:pa n~ion. \7'" arious rnernbers of the com rnunity are bPing intervic\ved, ar:d asked \vhat they \Yonld suggc.-+, on \Vhat lines they would go, wh1tt undertakings might be en­tered into. But is it l ikelv. when actions arc likely such as are to, be curied out und<'l' the authoritv of a Bill like this and whirh will be appf!ed to other matters: that anybody would thin'< of entering en anv undertaking in life'! What man will consid~,r any degree of development and enterprise? Ic is altogether past understanding to say that men possessed of any intclligen<·" would und0r snch condiions enter into an enterprise. Of course, we were told tho other evening by the Secretary for Public Lands that it was not the intEntion to interfere with enterprise and \ve -were told again this afternoon that tl{e Go­vernmer~t intended to do a fair thing by all people m the community.

GoVEEN}!ENT :ME1IBEES:. Hear, het>,r!

:Mr. BAR~ES: I oav they arc nnt doing thE~ fair thing. "

0PPOBITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Mr. BARNES: They are wiping out at one str-oke: an industry, a busin(·."'~., or an

jjl[ r. Barnes. J

768 Workers' Compensation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] JJ;J eat works Bill.

enterpri,o which has taken a lifetime to build up, and which employs a v~st number of men. They were giving- them no thought and no consideration. I a"·k the Secretarv for Public Lands to transfer tha sympathy which he .-x.prcssed this afternoon in con­nection with things to which he then was referring to the conditions of this measure, and the right thing, the righteous thing, to do would be to dcfar passing it until the Government h"ve had time to turn ronnel and consider the effect it is going to havL instead of, at one blow, causing the death: knoll of the enterprise we cannot do without. 'Iher.o has b~en no mandate from the country foz· this. GovER};~IENT Jl.fE~lBERS : Y e'.

Mr. APPEl,: No.

Mr. BARNES: The monopolv of the whole of accident insurance was n~vcr for one mon,ent thought of, never for one moment did it enter tho minds of th3 people.

Mr. CARTER : That is why you are on that side.

Mr. B \RNES: There were desirable amendments. The idea was to widen the scope of the present Act and ih require­ments, and to give the GoYernmcnt an oppor­tunity of competing with other t·•>m­panie.:;, but apparently thev are afraid of competition. and thev warit to m<:>nopolise the whole thing. ·

Tho SPE) .. KER : 01·dcr ! I hope the han. member will keep to rc<osons whv he thinks the Bill should be read a third time this day three months.

Mr. BARNES : The rca.,ons, in short, why this Bill should be read this day three months, arc as alreadv evidenced bv the re­mar.ks of t?e 9hiPf Sec .. ctary. and by the fechng outside rn the ('Ornrnunity. It is wise, on account of the disturbin~ influence this principle is going to have, ~ot onlv in this matter, but also in other mattm·s ·that the Bill should be delayed, that we sh~uld pause before we pass this measure and take advan­tage of the opportunity of reconsidering the effect '• the wide effects, the b1·oad effeds w·hich it·:, pn',,~age is going to have on vur standing as a community generally.

The . TREASURER: This question of ~mendmg- the y;r orkers' Compensation Act 111 certam particulars has been thoroughly

thrashed out in this Chamber. [7.30 p.m.] On the motion for the intro-

duction of the Bill the Minister for Justice fully explained the intention of t~e measure ; on the second reading of the Bill there was a full debate and we con­sidered it for two whole days' in Committee. I contend that every phase of the Bill has been discussed fully and that every oppor­tt!nity has been given to hon. members to discuss the measure.

Mr. APPEL : Question !

The TREASURER: And I beg to move that the question be now put.

Mr. APPEL and OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Oh, oh ! Gag again!

[Mr. Barnes.

Question-That the question be now put­put; and the House divided:-

AYES, 37.

}{r. ,'\ rmfield Barber Bertram

, Carter Collins

,, CoonE'r Du:ristan Fihelly Foley Gilday Gillies Glcdson Hardacre Hartley, II. L. Hartley, W Huntrr

,, Huxham .Tones, "\ .• T. .Tones, T. L.

Mr. Land Larcom be Lennon

, Lloyd May

, McLachlan 1\icl[inn ~1cPhail O'Snllivan Petereon l'ollock

, Ryan, D. " 1\yan, H. J.

Smith , Ptopford

Theodore , \V ellington

·winstanlry

Tellers: Mr. McPhail nnd Mr. Rtopford.

Mr. Appel , Armstrong

Barnes ,, Brbbington

Booker , Bridgrs

Corser , Grayson

}f;:..tore

NoEs, 18. Mr. l\Iorgan

, l\Imphy Petrie Roberts Stodart Swayne To!mie Vowles Walker

Tellers: Mr. Corser and 3ir. Yowlcs.

PAIRS.

.Ay<'s-)fr. Bowman, Mr. Payne, J.fr. Adamson, and Mr. T. ,T. Ry:.m.

Nof's-:Jfr. )facartney, Mr. Somerset, )fr. Bell,. ancl ~fr. Bayley.

Resolved in tho affirmative.

Question-That the word proposed to be omitted (Mr. S"''ayne's amendment) stand part of the question-put and passed.

Mr. MORGAN (Mmilla): I wish to move another amendment.

The SPEAKER: Order !

Mr. MORGAN: In accordance with Stand­ing Order 247, I move that the words "now read a third time" be omitted, with the view of adding the word "withdrawn."

The SPEAKER : Order ! The hon. mem­ber's amendment is not in order. The House has alreadv decided to retain the word ''now'' in ihe motion.

The Bill was read a third time and ordered to be transmitted to the Council by message in the usual form.

MEATWORKS BILL.

SECOND READING.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: In moving tho second reading of this Bill, I mav sav that I am sure han. members are fullv seized with the far-reaching; importance of Its provisions. I do not think it is neces­sarv t.hat I ehould make a lengthy spee<)h in laying the Bill before the Honse. It has alreadY been in the hands of mr>mbers of the Chamber for several days, and I am mre that the,· have availed themsdves fully of that tim'c to studv it. The Meatworks Bill seeks to avert, as far as this State is able, the far-

Meatworks Bill. [16 SEPTEMBER.) 111eatworks Bill. 769

reaching co_n ,equences that threaten the British Emprre in the struggle in which it is at present en"'ag~d. l'rimarily, that is tlie object of the oBi!!. While there is no time limit during which the Act will be in opera­tion, it is essentially a war measure. I have no doubt that a number of persons outside 111 ay regard it \Vith some apprehension. It iH

pos~ible that bec:mse of tho far-reaching pro­visions cont<Lined in the Bill some timid­rr1indcd person rnay beco1no unduly al.arn1ed, but I ask members of this House who are fully seized of ~he provisions of the Bill not to be oor_ icd away by such a thought, but t0 endeavour as far as poosible to allay '"ny such feelings. It is necessary thut power should be given to the Government <LS is provided here. Remember, if t-he powem are great the responsibilities of those who are cal!"d upon to administer the Act is equally gre::tt. That ]Jeing so, this Ilouse and tht• co:.miry mav rely upon it that this, or any other Govr-rnment, who may be called upon to administer the Act, will see thut nothing but that which is <1bsolutelv essential in the intere8ts o£ the Empire or" of Australia will be done. Because, after all, it does not matter who the Government in power may Le, it will be their motive to preserve the industries of this great State and see that nothing· is done but what will harmonise with the best interests of thoce industries <Lnd the community at large. But these are not ordi­nary times. Under the<e conditions it is uecessary that powers shall be given to the Government to deal with matters contained herein. 1 propose to briefly refer to the pro­visions of the Bill and the powers contained therein. The object of the Bill is, primarily, the regulation of meatworks. As will be found in clause 13, it may uctually be ex­tended to any other enterprise, undertaking, businc3s, or manufactory, in which any natural products, foodstuffs, or commodities ar& prepared. The powers of the Govern­ment under the Act may be grouped under three heading;;. 'The first is the power to t<tk<' control of the business for a period. 'l'hat is provided for in cl<Luse 4. Secondly, there is power to give directions a.s to the rnanagement or carrying out of the business. That is provided for in clau•e 5. 'Thirdly, ·in the ev.:mt of th~ meatworks failing to comply with the orders, there is J10wer to acquire the \\'hole bu<>ine•·s, 11aying therefor by Go­vernment stock. Under these three headings are grouped the whole of the purposes of the Bill. We recognise, as I think every seriously minded member of this Assembly must, that at the present time Great Briooin requires me<Lt, a.nd is looking to Queensland and the other Australian States for her meat supply.

Mr. MoRGAN: You have got full power now.

'The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: There a.re certa,in powers alre:tdy in the hands of the Government, but greater powers are nece3sary, and particularly so at the present time, on account of the very great drought which is upon us. The conditions of to-day are not similar to those which existed twelve months ap-o, when the Meat Supply for Im­perial l,.ses .... \.ct was paBsed in this Charnber. It is quite possible th<Lt the Governmcnt may be mot in the next six weeks or two months with a situation for which the powers which they- have at present will be insufficient. If those powers are not necessary, there will be no necessity to exercise them. The Govern-

1915-3B

ment may -be sufficiently trusted to use the powers only when it is absolutely necessary to exercise them.

Mr. ARMSTRONG: Will you indicate what other industri<-'l there arc supplying food whic~, is likely to be ,,..,_nted for war pur­posP.s.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: At the pre~,ent time I am not in a. position to st<Lte anv industrv which it will be necessary to ask (or power' to deal with, but we_ know that the conditions are such that circum­:;tances may arise that may make it nccc<Ooory for the Government to do something of the sort. There are munitions of Vlar, for in­stance. The Government of Queensland 'have been asked to begin the manufacture of m.unitions of '•' ar, and it is possible that something will be necessary under that head, just as it is necessary in Great Britain, ·wherG the power has been t<Lken by the Imperial Government to deal with the various fact<:>ries and Iaro-e foundries for the -manufacture of munitio~s of war. Quite a number of things might suggest themselves to one'~ mind, but it if unnecessary to refer to busmesses that are not absolute!;;- neces,,ary to-night. Under clause 4. it is provided·th<Lt whore it appears to be necessary that any meatworks shouid be carried on under State control, the Governor ill Council mav appoint a controller of such meatworks fm: such time and under such conditions as the proclamation may declare. The clause is designed to give the Govern­ment power to take complete control for a purpose analogous to the power conferred in Eng·land upon the Government with refer­once to munitions, which I have just referred to. Clause 5 contains provisions as to the orders for carrving out the businE•8S, and the owners of meatworks must comply with these arden. The Governor in Council has only to o-ive such orders a.s he thinks proper and in the nublic intArest. This has in mind the possibifity of the Government for the time being regarding it as !"ecess<Lry th~t c~m­tracts shali be diverted m another du0ctwn than that which the businc!l~ is sending them. It mio-ht be necessary to alter the channel of th<·<e

0

commo-dities, and divert it to quite another source. Powem of this sort are necessary, and consequently it is felt that anvthing less than the powers sough~ here ·woul-d aot b~ sufficient to meet the Circum­stances in which the Empire is placed. Then, power is given to acquire meatworks or any other i,vork-3. It is neces-sury to have po-;ver to enforce compliance with 'the directions of the Minister as it may be of grPat moment th<Lt these clirections ~hould be em·ried out either for Imperial or for loc~tl reasons. It is quite conceivable that local conditions might aYise making it imperative in the interests of the community that temporary control ~-hou1d be taken bv the Government. That lJGing so, provision- ie made for the Govern­ment to exercise that po,,·er. Under c~uuse 6. if the Governor in Council is satis­fied that th0 owners of mcat,,orks <Lre not complying with the direction•< of tho Ministe;, ht: mav acquire thc·e works. But that 1s. onlv as' a last re•,ort. It is not proposed, nor is it Jlrovided, that that shall be done in tho first inotance.

Mr. VOWLE~: There is no appeal.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I am sure that hon. members generally are quite satisfied that the Government will not do anything unnecessarily to harass those

Hon. J. M. Hunter.]

770 Meatworks Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Meatworlcs Bill.

controlling meatworks so long as they meet the wishes of the Imperial Goverment or of the State Government, who, after all, are only carrying out the behests of the Imperial Government in the matter. It is only in the event of ·the owners of meatworks doing something inimical to the interests of the Empire that this power of acquisition will be exercised.

Mr. MORGAN : Has that been the spirit which has animated them up to the present time1

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDI:l: At this stage it would be very unwise for me to say that such a spirit has animated them, but I have information in my pos­session which convinces me of the necessity for taking larger powers than we now possess. Notice has already been given that certain conditions will be required by certain works after the f!Xpiration of the present con­ditions. Those conditions may not meet the wishes of the Government of Queensland, much less with the wishes of the Imperial Government, and, that being so, these powers are esoential. If the meatworks do not sec their way to carry on themselves, or if they ~ay that it would not pay them to do so on the lines laid down, then it may be necessary for the Government to take control tempo­rarily, and the staff of the works will carry on under the direction of the Government.

Mr. MuRPHY: Will the Government meet any loss 1

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: If the Government take charge they w·ill have to meet any loss. The works will be taken over by proclamation. The owners will be entitled to compensation, but they will not be allowed anything extra in respect of. compulsory purchase, goodwill, or any­thmg of that sort. The Land Court will be called upon to determine the amount of com­pensn,tion. The court, which has already been set up by Parliament and now adjudi­cates in all differE>nces between State tenants and t_he Crown, may safely be left to adjudi­cate m such matters as this.

Mr. AR~!STRONG: Why do you not recog­nise goodwill?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: At a time like that, I think goodwill can hardly be arrived at when works rtre taken over temporarily-say for three months.

Mr. MORGAN: You may injure the trade of the works.

The SECRE'I'ARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Provision is made in cl>tuse 7 for the Govern­ment issuing stock in payment of compensa­~ion.. The stock will be issued at par, bear­mg mterest at the rate of not less than 4 nor more than 5 per cent. Subsidiary provisions are made, particularly with regard to the Minister's power to carry on the business and provide for the adjustment of contracts which have been made 'for the purchase and sale of goods. These may be cancelled or they may be ratified in the interests of the Imperial Government or of the Queensland Government. Provision is made for carry­ing en the busim,,s without interference of any sort. Clause 10 provides that there shall be no remedy except for the value of the property acquired. Clause 11 amplifies the power of the Governor in Council to givfl ordE'rs and to safeguard the people. Clause 14 enables the MinistPl· to make investiga­tions regarding any alleged offence. Clause 18 simply presen-es all the powers given unrler the Meat Supply for Imperial Uses

[ T£ on. .J. l'rf. HunteT.

Act and the Sugar Acquisition Act, to which this measure is complementary. That briefly summarises the contents of the Bill. It is merely an extension of the powers granted by Parliament in 1914 in the Meat Supply for Imperial Gees Act, which has fairly well served its purpose up to the present. Not fully; and at the time the Act was going through it wao recognised by the present Government, who then were sitting in oppo­sition, that this power should have been taken at that tim:o. As a matter of fact, the Act was not put in operation before the late Government realised that they would have been considerably strengthened in their ad­ministration of the Act had they had the powers contained in this Bill. At one moment I believe they almost felt that Par­liament would have to be called together to give them these extended powers. It is not desirable that this Government should be put in that position. Parliament is now sitting, and the power lies in its hands to grant these powers; and if the Government have the confidence of this House. then that power will not be refused. but han. membeTs will freely give the Government the powers which they as the adminis­trators of the State ask them to give, and which they fE>Pl are absolutely necessary in t,his matter. There is no desire to harass or to interfere with the industries of the State. Far from it. We as a Government recog­nise that the great industries of this State must be encouraged and expanded in every pos,,ible wa:;·. No country can succeed where the Government does not fully realise ih rPsponsibilitv in that d;reetion. This Bill does not in anv wav vitiate tho~e .desire:{ or those aspirations.~ I know that there may be timid-minded people who may become frightened at their own shadows. but I ask han. members to try to disabuse their minds of any fear of that sort, and to take the measure as it is given to them, with the purest of motives and with the intention of doing what is best under the circumstances in the interests of the Empire a' a whole. I haYe mueh ph~a,ure in moving that the Bill be now read a second time.

GOVERNMENT :ME1IBERS: Hear, hear t !VIr. BOOKER (Trhlc Tlap): In approach­

ing tho subject of this Bill, I do so w:th a c~rtain amount of anxietv when I recollect that everv m0asure submitted hv th<' Go­vr'rnment 'to this Honse is of on~ brand, and that brand is one rf want of conflc!cnee. I am sure that this Bill. cl02elv aff2cting the great primary indu-try, mu't givo to tho people chiefly unv'rrncd that feeling of \V.lnt

of confidence in the GoYe'rnmont, [8 p.m.] and a ffeling of thrir lack of a

SPllBe of TOSP0UQ,jb1litv. The 2'.1inisier who submitted the Bill ~ays that jt is a f:tr-reaching meaFure, and \V0 ~tccept that fact. In the next breath he tells the p,eople conc~Tnrd not to be alarnwd. Any­one who reads this BilL and who is not alarmed, does net appreciate the condition; in th" indmtrv. and the position of the stnck­bn,oder·· and, the rne'n who have nut their capital into the meat companies of Quneno­land. Anvone who reads the Bill and does not to a c~rtain extent lose tha'; ecnfidPnce in Queensland as a place to de\·-~lop their in­dustry, and at the sam<o time to develor their rasources-well. then, being sensible men, thcv arc not fit to run their own conce1·ns. ThO ITIC'D vd1o are running the big primary industr~v, and the n1rn 'vho Jlro runnjng tl:e mc:thn•rks art m0n who havo got a fine grip of things, and it will be these men who

Meatworks Bill. [16 SEPTEMBER.] Meatworks Bill. 771

will lose' that confidence in the State, the re­sult of 'vhich will be no good for the State. I will ghce a pas,ing circumstance. It is well known to han. members, more particu­larly the Ministe>· fm- Lands, the Treasurer, and the Premier, that an Australian com­pany, which is already c·-tablished in Queens­land and has branzhes in the other States, de1 ided a short time ago to erect modern wm·ks in Central Queensland for further de­velopmC'ut. I undcerstand. on reliable autho­ritv. that since this Bill has been submitted to th, people of Queensland, the ma~~agers of the company have decided r:ot to go ou with the erection of the works in Central Queensland. That me-ans that something like £250,000 will not be spent in the State, find­ing employment for the people, and then eventually finding the best paid enployment for any class of workers in the State or in Australia. Men will lose employment in the erection of those worb. Further employ­ment would have bee:J found if the works had been cred~cd. The r~n1ifications in connec­tion with the carrying on of a great meat­works arc very many, and everybody in the State would benefit by the erection of those works. Then, take another case. It is well lmown that a large American compan.,-, Meo,n. Morris and Co., who are operating in the United States, approached the Federal authorities and received permission to go on, to purchase land on the Brisbane River, and to erect 'vorks tlwre. Are these men going to spend £500.000 in the erection of those works 1 K o, they are not. Is it good for Queensland that men who are prepared to bring capital into tho country, and develop our resources, and find e'llployment for the people, is it the kind of treatment which should be meted out to these men to have a measme like this hanging ov-er th>·ir heads? If I ' u·e the first and last authority in this "State upon thD whole quc,tion of meatworks and the pri;nary industry-the phstoral in­du,d·y-I am quit satisfied that anything I might say in this Chamber to-night would have no pffed whatever so far as altering the crossing of a " t " or the clotting of an " i " in the Bill is concerned. For the Minis­ter to shake his head is a tragedy, because it is abject insincerity. I take it, -on the words of the J'Iinistc"r. that to some extent there is a feeling of insincerity about it. No one' knows better than the Minister for Public Lands that to bring this Bill into operation would dislocate the whole of the industry in such a way a.s to be no good to the people of Queensland and ev0rybody conrnned. The :\Iinister said, "Do not take alarm; the pecple conc,rned in this great industry should not b"o alarmed at the proposal of the Go­vernment." That is all very well with a tame dog, but when it is a question of the mad clog, that is another proposition alto­gether.

OPPOSITION JYIE::I!BERS : Hear, hear !

The_ SEC'RETARY FOR P 'JBLIC LANDS: Don't you think the war has something to do with it'!

OrPOSITION MEMBERS: Nothing to do with it.

Several Government members interject­ing,

1\Ir. BOOKER: Later on hon. mcmberd opposite can question what I say, but I want to make my ,;peech in my own way. and I d., not intend to take any notice of inter-

jections, which are' disorderly at any time. The J'.1inister says that there is no necessity for the people who have their capital invested in thf' mcatworks and in the pastoral industry to take alarm at the Bill. I say that when the tame clog is there, poc.sibly there is no necessity to take alarm about anything; but when the mad clog is L broad lt is a very different thing. The Hon. the PrBmier a few week; ago met a deputation at the Trades Hall, and this measure took its conception there. The Minister for Public Lands shakes his head. Who knows better than he where this Bill took its birth? At the Trades Hall.

The SECRETARY <"OR P<.:BLIC LANDS: No.

Mr. BOOKER: Of course, it did. Mr. CARTER: It might have been conceiYed

in a worse' way.

Mr. BOOKER: vVe know that that mad clog was abroad at the Trades Hall a fort­night ago, and the butchers-that is, the employees of the meatworks-threatened when the meatworks closed down--

Mr. McPHAIL (Windsor): I rise to a point of order. Is the' hon. member for 'Vide Bay in order in speaking of the members of the 'rradc' Hall a mud dog?

The SPEAKER: I did not hear the hon. member for \Vide Bay refer to members of the Trades Hall as a mad dcg. He said that a mad dog was abroad.

:Mr. BOOKER : I was figuratively con­yeying my idea of what the :Minister said. He said that no one need have ,;nv alarm about the final effects of this mea~ur-e. A fortnight or so a;:;o the employees of the mtatworks, who were out of employment­and nobody regrets more than I do that they arc out of employment-threatened to c0n1e .do,vn en masse· to Parli::t1ncnt IIouso to dictate to the Premi<'r of the State as to what he should do. I think that t!lP Pr"c,nie:·, instead of going to the TrC'dN Hall to dis­<'US3 the quection, should ha' e mo,-ed in this House that the' reprc",ent"tive, cf the meat­work, employees should be heard at the bar of the House. That is the proner place for any large body of citizens who have any' complant to make-that is, if it is important enough; and I take it that where, probably, 3,000 mE'n are out of employment, and they think there is no rPason for their unemploy­ment, the proper place for a matter of that kind to be dealt with is with the Hon. the Premier in his place and the people's repre­sentatives at the bar of the House. If that had occurred, every member of this Chamber would h'we known what was said at that particular gathering. or conference in the Trades Hall. Members on this side, and the public generally, know nothing of what took place at that conference, and, I say it advisedly, thi, Bill is the outcom<c of that conference at the Trades HilL

The SECRETARY FOR PunLrc LA!>DS: No.

Mr. BOOKER : What is the f.l"ood of the han. g<."ltleman contradicting that? It is a knowledge as common as the fnct that we know that you are in the Chair to-night, Mr. Speaker. Anyhow, members on this side of the Honse. who are just as responsible to the people individually as any member on that side, should have been aware of the reasons that were adduced by the reprcsenta­ti;-es or the men at the Trades Hall and

Mr. Book!?r.]

772 Meatworlcs Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] M eatworlcs Bill.

the reasons why this Bill has been sub­mitted to this House. Now I will revert back to a few remarks that I made quite lately : We were dealing with a certain matter one night in this Chamber, and I referred to the deputation that the han. member for Itha.ca, Mr. Gilday, introduced to the Minister, .and I said that the han. member for Ithaca had made the statement that the meatworks had deliberately shut down for an ulterior and specific purpose. I take this opportunity of withdrawing my reflection upon the han. member, because he explai::~ed to me subsequently that he himself did not noake that statement, in so far that the m.,atworks had an ulterior motive in closing down to intimidate the element and intimidate the men in the works, but it was said by a member of the deputation, and the han. member for Ithaca stood there or sat there and did not correct one of his supporters. That is the po,ition. I dis­cussed the matter with the han. member for Ithaca, and he agreed that that is just what took place, so I take this opportunity, in discussing this measure. to put myself right with the han. member and he with me. The statement was made at that conference that the meat companies had closed down for an ulterior motive. Now I <;:an quite under­stand that the employees' minds were poi­soned against the management of the meat companies; that they then decided to march through the streets of Brisbane to Parlia­ment House to beard the Premier in his room. 'Then l say, again, that the proper course for the Premier to take and the proper course for the people concerned who felt themselves aggrieved-the proper course for- their representatives to take was to have come to the bar of the House, stated their ca·.e, and the Premier should have been in his place to have dealt with the whole question, and then made a statement to Parliament. Anyhow, the position is this; and it is a de-plorable one : that Ministers of the Crown, from the Premier down, received deputa­tions. They themsclYes know the whole position from ~\. to Z, and they have not the courage nor have they the interests of the country deeply enough at heart to state their case, but they allow these things to be said in their presence at deputations knowing the facts of the case from, as I say, A to Z, and they have nnt the courage to tell the people "ho are 80 deeply concerned, how things are. They know just how things are. \Vho knows better than the Secretary for Lands, who represents a big inland con­stituency; who knows better than the Sec­retary for Agriculture and StO<'k, as to the state of Queensland at this particular time? Those two hon. members know well, as well as I know, that the meatworks having shut down has no bearing oB. any other cause but the -disastrous drought. It was a remarkable coincidence ; I pick up the " Courier" the morning following a statement made by the Secretary for Agriculture and Stock, and what did I find? He made a statement as to the inttmtion of the Government or his department to issue instructio'ls to the various stock inspectors throughout Queens­land for them, the stock inspedors, the offi­cials of the department, to gather statistics as to the fat stock available in Queensland at that parti-<. ular time. In the other column what did I find? A report from the senior stock inspector, Thir. Taylor, a very able man. Mr. Taylor had just returned from an extensive tour throughout the State, and he is constantly patrolling Queensland, and

[Mr. Booker.

his rcnort to the Press-and I take it it was a rep-ort to the Minister previously-was that the state of Queensland was deplorable, and the shortage of fat stock to some extent was re,ponsible for the position. Dealing with that aspect of it, I might say to the Minister for Stock that the most effective way to have got that information-that is the information as to the number of fat sheep and fat cattle in the State of Queens­land-was not to lose time by communicat­ing with the various inspectors as to their knowledge of the stock available, for this reason: that the office work of the average stock inspector is so heavy that he, the stock inspector-and what applies to one applies to the majority of them--the office returns, the nece,osity to issue permits .and other office work is so great and so laborious-! say that advisedly, too--that these men, .no matter how anxious tht•y arc to go through their districts controlling their districts, are tied to their offices doing office work. These men do not go into the fattening pa<'docks of selectors and pastoralists; they are travelling along the roads nin0 times out of ten. These men cannot give a true conception of the number of fat stock fit for export or fit for our own requirements in the State, becausP. they do not know. But if the Minister h!'d communicated with the meat compames whose head offices are all in Brisbane, with the exception of Lake's Creek at Rockhamp­ton-if the Minister hacl communicated with the meatworks who have a score or two of employees whose business it is to travel over (~ueensland from east to west and from north to south. They do not travel con­stantlv on the roads. These men are oYer every 'bit of every run in the State, inspect­ing from time to time the sheep or cattle that might be fit to deal with now or later on. 'I'hese men are experts. Many of th_em have been in the business for half a life­time, and the very fact of their obligation to travel for the stock, go into every fatten­ing paddock go on every run where there is any possibility of getting fat cattle, would enable them to give the Secretary for Agri­culture and Stock information in a few hours that would have been valuable to him and Yaluable to the people of Queensland. But I regret to say-I really do not like to raise any heat in the matter, but I cannot but feel that there is a lack of sincerity in all this business that we are sitting in Parliament to discuss. I cannot help but say that be­cause I feel it, and that is the deplorable circumstance of the whole bnsiness. Then we are told by the Secret-ary for Lands that the meat companies, if they do not unduly harass the authorities in connection with the sunplv of meat to the Imperial authoritie; the Act v:ill not be put into operation. I would ask the ::Yiinister whether up till now there has b''en any harac,ment since the Meat Supply for Imperial 'Cses Act came into operation? Has there been any harassment? Of course there has not been. These men who are controlling these meatworks are out to do businee.s in a business -wav, and to do it thorourrhly and effectiYely. · Y ct I say, the han. gentleman made the statement that if these meat companies' managers, men con­trolling this great industry, do not unduly harass his lordship the Mini·cter for Lands, then the Act will not come into operation. That is a refledion on the men who aJ:e carrying on a great work in the country, and· it should be clearly understood that there has been no harassment, there is no . possi­bility of harassment by these men who are

Meatwork8 Bill. [16 SEPTEMBER,) Meatwork8 Bill. 773

carrying on the export business. Then the question arises as to whether the intention of the Government is to take over one meat­works or the whole of them. I myself cannot understand the views of the Minister, whether he means that the Government should take over one \vorks, t\YO works, three works, or all the works. It is ,;enerally understood by anyone who knows the business at all that all the meatworks, with the exception of one which has obligations to supph meat to shops in Melbourne, clc,se down almost, as a rule, within a fortnight-as was the experi­ence this year. If, say, they all closed down in one week, and a set of persons indicate·d to the Government that they were shutting down unduly, for some specific purpose, what is the Minister going to do? Is he-because after all, the Governor in Council is the Minister whose department is administering the particular businhi in question-is the Minister going to say what works are to be commandeered, .and what are not? Then, so soon as the Minister believes that tht're is a combination between the meat companies and it is necessary to commandeer the lot, docs the Minister realise how much tl:ley will involve the State in? It will involve the State in a sum ranging from two to three millions of money, and is the Minister prepared to .enter into an obligation like that? I do not think he is.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: 'Why be so alarmed?

Mr. BOOKER: I hayc· just dealt here and there with what the Minister has said in introducing this Bill. Now, what is going t·.> be the r,·~ult of this Bill, and this Act of Parliament-because it is going to be an Act, there is no question about that. Has anv amendment been accepted to any Bill of thi"s nature? No, not one. The Government have a majority behind them, a majority, unfor­tunately for Queensland-! say it without meaning any pmsonal reflection-without any identificJtion with these' industries, bevond as my friend the leader of the Oppo;itio,;_ said last night, a number of travelling dele­gates, representing one gpction of the com­munity, the worker. \Vhcthor they are rloing good work, I do not say. That thev are doing good work for thcmselYes I do not question. But the great majority of men hehhcl the present Administration arE men who are in no way whrrtever identified with the''' industries, aJ1d consequently know lit'tle about them. otherwi'e than from the passion and .r_rejudice which is inbred in political cond1tlons as we find them to-dav. I see in this Bill a great danger hanging over the heads of the people who have their capital in this industry. It is this: At any time when it suits the great party fitting on the GoYcr":'ment benches t<:> raise th,; question of the prwe of meat, all they have to do i' to send their walking delegates through the industri~l centres, and preach the <rospel thev preach~d just prior to the 22nd'"May, the same kmd .of mad-dog eloquence. They will go through the t{)Wns and cities and COUntry, and then the people will be fed up: and then, when the people are fc!d uo, the Government are going to take their "instructions from the people's rarliament at Turbot street. That is the position. It is not a question of the industry one bit. It is not the question of the conservation of a great industrY at all. It is a question of political advanceinent a;nd political power, and that is the groat danger that I see in the administration of this

particular Bill. The Hon. the Minister made refe'rence this afternoon to political capital. I would just say, in passing, that if there ts in public lift' an artist in the making of political capital, capital out of politics, it is the hon. member; and all through the piece it is political capital that is behind all these peculiar kinds of legislation. Nobody can help seeing it. It is so patent to all hon. members. The hen. mmnb<'r aid nmcthing about being fair to all parties. Now, is it a fai1· thing which the measure before tho Chamber mav do? Take the crrso of a meat­\.vorks eTorte'd at a very largo expense, be­cause, like· the mod.crn sugar-mill, ~he modern meat>;·orks costs at least £200,000. As a mat!··'r of fact, we have meatworks on the Brisbane Rive'r now which, when they are complet·>d to the original plane,, will have CDot somC'thing like £500,000 or £600,000, and £300,000 or £,100,000 has already been spent on them. \Vhen a man, or a set of men, decide to embark on an onterpris0 of that nature, there are few of them who have eo much capital that they are able to do so with their own moncv. and the result is that th0y borrow; and 'I would like to know whether the Minister, as a director of a great inftitution, could borro1.-v money for aLl. enterprise in an industry like the moatworks industry for !e.'s than 6 per cent. I do not think he could. By his silence, the Ministe:t' indicates that he will ha.-e to pay 6 per cent. for tho monev necessarv to build his works and carry on. Then-the 1'1:inist<lr having accepted my statement--the Government, under preFsure from the Trades Hall, come along and commandeer the works, and in payme·nt for them the individual or set of individuals have to take Government stock at 4 per cent.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : That is not right.

Mr. BOOKER: Yes, at par. We have had experience in Australia already of Stat(' enterprises, and it is quite clear that a Go­vernment, by taking over enterprises of that nature, landed th0ir State in disaster. Take the returns from Western Australia, which ha YEi come to hand only the last day or two. We find that in Western Australia their State enterprises have lost thousands of pounds, and the State has gm·e back a million. Is that fact not sufficient to warn the hon. member that under extravagant ad­ministration the State's affairs went back to the tune of £1,000,000? Does not that affect the credit of a State, and when itcJ credit is aff.ected, is not the price of its stock affected 1 I myself might be running a works and be compelled under the provisions of such an Act as this to take Government c•tock at 4 per cent ; but in two years' time or five years' time, particularly if this disastrous war prolongs itself, what might be the value of Queensland Government debentures which I have been forced to accept? They might not be worth £60 or £70. Not only arr I forced to accept the ra:t.e of interest-4 per ce·nt, which is less than I am paying for my money-but also payment which is not of face value, but a value probably of only £60 or £70 eventually. Nobody can say what Go­vernment stock will be worth before the war is over. Nobody can question the fact that there will be a depreciation in Government stocks throughout the world before the war is settled. Therefore, the effect will be that the owners, the shareholders, will have to accept confiscation of their concerns, and

Mr. Booker.]

774 Meatworks Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Meatworks Bill.

without any goodwill at all-none whatever. That do<''S not appeal to hon. members oppo­site. Hon. members do not believe in what they call "unearned increment." They do not understand that the building up of that goodwill may have cost a company thousands of pounds ; and here I will instance a case directly. I hope the proprietor and mana­gers will not think less of me for doing so, but I am going to mention a company whoso ca; e, I think, supports my contention in rPgard to the' goodwill, and also because I think I should. Any hon. member of this House, who knows anything about the ex­port trade knows that Messrs. John Cooke and Co. have very large interests in Mel­bourne in distributing frozen beef to tlw Melbourne people, and that they also have a very large meatworks at Rodbank. A great

deal of the business of Messrs. [8.30 p.m.] John Cooke and Co. is Australian

busine"; they slaughter cattle at RGdbank and distribute frozen and chilled !"eat to the Au,tralian people. The build mg up of that great business in ::\Lelbourne involved the expenditure of a large sum of money before it became what you may term a running busine'S carried on with anv de­gree of profit. To confiscate tho Rc dbank J\ieatworks means the confiscation of Messrs. John Cooke and Co.'s business in Victoria because, if the company lose their source of supply_ at Re_dbank, that will cripple their V wtonan busme -s. Does the Minister accept that aspect of the question? Of course, he does not; ~u! that is the position, and I want the .Mmister to appreciate it seriouslv. Tho goodwill o~ tho busint;ss of that company stands for nothmg, accordmg to the Yiews of the GoYernment. As I said before the whole trend of their political action is r~pudiation. \Vhen I stated that, the hon. gentleman sat there and accepted the fact. He hear-heared my statement when I said the whole trend of the politics of the Government is con­fiscation an~ repudiation. The Acting Minis­ter for J ust1ce pa~ oed a measure only to-night of the' grossest kmd of repudiation.

Hon. J. A. FnmLLY: No. Parliament passed it. ~

Mr. BOOKER: That measure confiscates the business of insurance companies. The ;vhole trend of the policy of the Government IS to _confisc-:te, what belo~gs to other people. I qUite realise that the hmes are strenuous but why at thie particular time the Govern: ment should single out the meatworks for legislation of this character I cannot under­stand. The men who 'have been controlling the meat industry accepted the call of the Premier of Qt!ermsland, .•;;ho a,ccepted the call of the Imperial authorities last year and it was armnged that the entire output 'of beef should be secured for the Imperial Govern­ment. When the Premier came down to the House with hi_s p_roposal, every member accepted the obhgatwn proposed and rirrhtlv so. Then the Premier, under 'instructions fixed the price of beef, and it is a remark: a~le thing how the companies fell into line With the Premier's desires. The Premier fixed the price of cattle at 4~d. per lb., New South Wales fixed it at 4~d., and New Zea­land a~ 4N., while the Argentine people we~e SUJ?~lymg beef

5which was not altogether

Bnt1sh beef at 5ad. per lb. In what respect have the producers and meat companies o'f Queen~land Jaile;d in their obligation to the Impenal 'authorities or to the Parliament of Queensland? In no way whatever. There-

[ Mr. Booker.

fore, I ~ay there is no necessity to ask Par­liament to put this Bill on the statute-book of Queensland. If the meat companies had in any way fell foul of the Administration, there might have been some rea,;;on for intro­<lucing this measure, but seeing that they have kept their obligations, and that the pro­·ducer~ <llso have kept their obligations, there is no necessity whatever to ask Parli-ament to foot this Bill. With regard to the closing down of the mcntworks, I would say that any member who knows anything of the con­<:litior:'< of Queensland knows that there are no stock available for meat companies. Yes­terday I met the Secretary for Public Lands and other members of Parliament at the Enoggera yards, seeing for themselves the condition and number of the cattle av-ailable in those yar,ds for the people of Brisbane and suburbs, · and up and down the line-for supplies for places as far as Gympie are drawn from Enoggera-only 800 cattle of all elasses were available, and higv prices v.ere ruling. A man who grows stock is just as anxious to get all he can out of his •·tack as members of Parliament are to get the spoils of office. Xo member on the other side can tell this House that he would not accept a call to the Treasury bench, because he would accept it at once in order to get the best he could from his parliamentary c<treer; and in the same way a stock owner wishes to get the best price he can for his stock. The high prices which prevail at the central market for stock in Brisbane draw rtock from everywhere in twos and threes, tens and twcntin. Any stockowner who has n, railway by which he can bring in his stock is passing stock into the Brisba.ne m.ark9t, becau•,e that is the only market which is available. as the meatworks are closed down. The Minister and other members of Parlia­ment saw what stock were in the vards yester­da:t, and they must accept what· they saw in regard to prices as showing that if there were fat stock in Queensland those yards would be fully supplied, and prices would go down. But the stock are not in the country, and that is why the meat companies ,are not operating. Not only is that bad for the meat companies, it is also ba;d tor the persons who own stock. The stockowners of Queensland are satisfi0d that it would be b,,tter business for them to sell c'<ttle at a lower price if they had the cattle than for prices to risH very high bGCause there are few cattle aYailable. We have been told about one solitary beast bringing £40, but against that we have to put the fact that the average is £7 or £8. It would be very much bett-er for the pastoral industry, if we had good seasons and our full ca,st of cattle, to sell cattle at lower prices than to sell three or four animals for £40 each, and inferior cattle for £10 or £12. If they had good seasons, and were able to get a regular market for their stock over the twelve months, the in­dustry would be much more prosperous, and the people who are earning their daily wage would be in a much better position. I might refer to what I said when the Meat Supply for Imperial Us0s Bill was before the House, in f'ase some hon. member may quote what I said then. I said on that occasion that I, and any other eattle-owners, would be prepared t:J sell our stock at tho ruling price, which at that time was £110s. per JOO lb.

The SECRETARY FOR P<.;BLIC IKSTRUCTION : You said £1 5s. per 100 lb.

Mr. BOOKER: No, £1 lOs. I also said at that time that the pastoralists and stock-

11ieatworks Bill. [16 SEPTEMBER.] Meatworks Bill. 775

owners would ·be prepared to accept the ruling price for the term of the war. I said it then, and I say it again. But since that time we have had twelve months of the most disastrous drought in many districts that we h<tve ever had, and the maJority of the men who would hoxe put their signature to the document n<.cce<sary to accept that obligation to-day have not got the cattle to sell at all. That makes all the difference in the world. li these men had b.acl a gone! year, with a rr<lsonable season, and the ,stock were there, I would stake my life on it, because I know iheir kclings. An hon. gentleman asked me if I was not prepared to sell my stock at £1 5~. per 100 h.? What is the use of a~J<:ing a man to sell what he has not got 1

The SECRETARY FOR PCBLIC INSTRUCTION: Some have got it. ·

Mr. BOOKER: Koone knows the position better than the Secretary for Public Lands, and the Secretary for Stock, who should be in his place to-night, when a discussion of this sort is bking place, because :he kno·,, s nGthing about his department. I am sure he k1!ows nothing about his department, other­Wise he would have the information which tho farmeys and others outside are wanting, and that 1s the number of fat stock available ict Quocnsktnd. Tlw Secretary for Stock ought to luwe that infurmation, and if he knGw anything about it he would have it. He has not got it, othenYise the House would have . it; therefore, he ought to be here hstemng to some home trut.1.s. vVhere did this Bill receive its conception? The Trades Hall. I say, seriously, that there are no employees, and no workers in Australia, who get rho pay that the men in the pastoral indus try get.

2\1r. PoLLOCK: Nonsense ! vVhat about the station hands?

-'\1r. :COOKER. There aro no men in Aus­tralia or elsewhere in any industry that are gcttmg the returns that the men ir. the pastoral industry are getting, (Hear, hear !) From the sheep's back to the markets of the world the wage-earners in that industry arc the best paid rnen, working· under the be.st mnditions of any industry in Australia or e;,,e,>'here.

-'\Ir. PoLLOCK: Nonsense !

Mr. BOOKER: Very well, I will give you some figures. The average wage of slaughter­men in the ,,orks in and around Brisbane is £8 per week, and there are many whose wage runs up to £12 per week. For freezers the average wage is £4 per week, although many get £6. When the butcher's log was adjust~d, the c'?nditi<?ns of the industry were takeu mto cons1deratwn. 'fhe men who were l'l3ponsible for the log appreciated and malised that an industry like the moat in­dustry was intermittent, and the industry runs on for some months, 1vhen, owing to climatic conditions and the supply of ~tock shrinking. the meat\\ork" close down. Tho average time the meatworks run is from six to eight months in the year in South Queens­!a.nd. The log was adjustBd, ,and wages were fixed, re~ognising the intermittent nature of the industry. I will ~ive the wages for last year Jor one set of men at a meatworks on th,) Brisbane River over a run of seven or eight months. Their cheques amounted to £343, £347, £351, £331, £270, end £190 for less than six months' work. These figure:'

aro authentic. When men get cheques rang­ing from £343 down to £270 for a seven months' run, surely they can stand up against a month or two or three months' unempioy­ment.

The SPEAKER: Order! I think the hon. member is getting rather beyond the scope c,£ the question.

Mr. BOOKER: I want to bring in these figures io show there is no necessity for the ·alarm that has been created. In view of the stuter 10nt made by the Premier at thE inter­vievr at the Trades Hall, an(\ the statements made by hon. members opposite, I want to bring in these figures to show that the men in this industry are getting better pay th<tn any other claios of the community.

Mr. PETERSON : Thanks to their union.

::Vlr. COLLINS: Read the pastoralists' in­come for the past ten years.

Mr. BOOKER: Speaking on the question generally, the Minister in oharg·e of the Bill said that if something did not transpire the Government would not take tho works over. The point I wish to make is this : The high prices of stock are going to revolutionise the pastoral industry entirely. ·what has occurred in the Southern States of America, more par­ticularly in the Argentine? Owing to the high price of stock, the landowners are break­ing up their land and growing artificial food. 'When bullocks were £5, and as low as £3, there was no encouragement to the men rais­ing stock to grow fodder. Whfm the price of stock rose tD £9, £13, and £15 per he<td, it encouraged the owners of land to break up their holdings and put them under lucerne and other gras"'s, and to improve their hold­ings in other respect£. That means that there will be extraordinary further dm-elopments in the indu~try, <tnd larger numbers of stock \viii be available, and they will be available fo1· a longer t<>rm throughout the year. That will necessitate further meatwmks. Then ao,-ain, I raise the question: Are men going to put their money into an industry and lose control of it the verv moment that these 'Y<:>rks nre available for the trefitment of stock 1 Are men going to spend their money in establishing works, when, as soon <ts they become oporative, the Crown, under this measure, can come in and take control ? The Minister said that if the owners said they could not carry on, then the Government were prepared to dv so. When the hon. gentleman said that I smile·d. He knows PYen better than I do that the ordinary Go­Yernment undertaking is never so successful as private enterprise.

The TREASCRER: What aoout the railways? They are the biggest reYennc-producers in Quf'ensland.

11r. BOOKER: The Treasurer smiles, but he knows that it is pri vat,• onterprise that enabled him to administer the Treasury. \Vhon the Government take over the manag-3-ment of meatworks and the development of coalmines and other industries, after the first year's operations the hon. gentleman will be in a less buovant spirit than he was when he went into t.he Tr;'asurv and found a surplus left there by his , predecessor. He will then be like the Premier of Western Australia with a deficit of £1,000.000. (Go­vernment laughter.) I do not desire to pro­long the debate further than to say that, if

Mr. Booker.]

776 Meatworks Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Meatworks Bill.

the Government appreciate the present posi­tion, they will do their utmost to encourage the people to develop the resources of the State. If the Government are sincereh de­sirous of encouraging· the developmer"it of the country, they will encourage people who arc prepared to como hero and spend their n1oney in 1f{rge enterprises like 1.:'?0 see o~ the Brisbane River, the Fitzrov River and at Bowen, Townsville, end Gladstone.' We have an cbject ksson right up the coast of ·QueeHshnd of men spending their money in developin<;- this gn·at industry, finding em­ploym:mt f_or yeoplo at a rate far beyond what IS paid m any other indu;trv. If the Gov0rnmo'1t t re desirous to cl ":elop this country--and I oelieve some of the members o! th::; }1ini•-try have that desire-if they d-ee­Sire cilat people should put their shoulders to the heel and develop the resources of the State--then thev will turn this Bill down. Everything that has b.•en- dono since this Governmont came into offico-everv mea­sure that ha'' be<m submitted by the'm has been with the one end-restrictive to a dcgre0-rutting the ground from under the feet o~ t~e men who have made Queensland what It-~~, and who have given to Ministers the posibom which they now enjoy. It is t~e work . that _those men have done first as piOneers m gomg _out and opening up the ?ountry and cstabh~hmg the great primary mdustry, a_nd then 111 establishing the allied secondary mdustry and building up the great c-:ntres wher? _people find employment at high wages-It u tho work of tbose men that h_as made this cou'!try what it is. The posi­tion of everybody 111 the community is better by_ the work those men have done and are domlj. Then a lot of irresponsible men, by cir~umstances best known to themselves com':' mto. public life, without anv identi: fic:atwn With the indm.tries of the· country, With no thought of the development of the country-only thought for their own political advancement--

Mr. MAY: That is wrong.

Mr. BOqKER : Yes. Those men come in, and. tho hfo work of the men who have c~rned the b:nrden and heat of the day is :nped out w1th a ~cratch of t-he pen. It IS a trage~y. Here IS fi;·ct the great primary pastoral mdustry, whiCh is keeping the people of Q:u'?ensland in their present pros­perous con_dihon, . and then the great allied sec?ndary md_ustnes, which keep large num­be~s of men 111 m:1ploymcnt. There are the railways that carry the wool, the ,took, and the produce. _Then there are the men who are employed ;n the meat industry, the men at the wa~er'I~e, tht; seamen, and all the other rar12;ficatwns nght throughout every centre. W nat was Gladstone before the meat­works were established there? ·what have the meatworks done for Bowen? What have the ;neatworks done for Townsville? Sent two .uabour m"mbers to Parliament is about the sum . ";nd substance of what they have done poht1'?all~. But what have they done f'?r Townsville: They have built up a great mty there. The same thing applies to Rockhampton and to Brisbane. I will ask would the Bri~bane River carry the depth of watN that It now does if it was not for the. meatworks that· have been establisl:,-,d on Its banks? The mail boats would not be here but for those works, because the freights would not be here. It is the meat "Om-

[111r. Booker.

pa;nies that brought Brisbane into pro­mmenco as a great. port. These works ar~; the ,ourcc of great revenue to the State. The buoyant condition of the railwa;y revenue is due almost entirely to the pastoral in­dustr.' and the moat industry. These in­dustries have made Brisbane what it is, and the same may be said of evor:v other port in the Shte where meatworks have been erected. Arc the C.:overnment going to kt ,-p the progressive movement going-the expansion of tho meatworks, and the laying down of fl-e,h plants'/ I say, "No," Mr. Speaker. I say without the Blightcst fear of cunti'ac:iction that the Government are crippling tho two great industries that are resp,msiblo for the prosperity of the people living in Queensland. Anything that :s done th::~t in tho slightc.Jt degree tends to restrict tho enterprise of the people engaged in those industries i" against the best interests of Queensland and against tho interests of the men who arc carrying the burden. ·I say again that there is a section of men in public life who have no sense of the proportion of things. All they arc concerned about is going out into the country and preaching a false gospel to the pc·ople-a gospel that appeals to their passions, their prejudices, and their selfishness. That is the whole sum and substance of the mission of those men.

OPPOSITION JYIEMBERS : Hea.r, hear ! The SF.C'RETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION'

You voted for a similar Bill last session.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC \YORKS: I cannot too strongly deprecate the character of the speech to which we have just been compelled to listen.

GOVERNMENT JY1EMBERS: Hear, hear !

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: If there is one thing that is calculated to injure tho meat industry in Queensland and thn general prosperity of Queensland, it is spee<Jhes of the character of that just de­livered by the hon. member for \Vide Bay. The undue exaggeration with which he inter­prets the intentions of this Bill, tho false alarm policy which he has just been Jeelar­ing, are more calculated to alarm capitalists than anything I know; and, if the · hon. m~m1ber has. been <'Ommunicating to those fncnds of hiS who have monev in the in­d:Istry the sentiments to which' he has just given utterance, then more shame to him becauw he has been placing a false con: struction on tho Bill.

Hon. J. ToL~IIE: What about the Bill. we were discussing last night?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: He has placed a false construction on the Bill, and he has been making misstatements about the origin of the Bill. .\s the hon. member was informed by the Minister in charge of the Bill, the measure did not originate in anything that took place at the Trades Hall. It was drafted long before the conferencn about which the hon. member spoke took place. It was drafted with a view to meeting conditions which re:ally exist and with a view to meeting conditions which may occur durmg the course of the war. It is essentially a war measure. The late Government passed a Bill last session almost similar to this Bill, a Bill more drastic in its operation, and that Bill was defended by members now sitting on the other side as a measure which was necessary in the in-

MeatworkB Bill. [16 SEPTEMBER.] 1VIeatworkB Bill. 777

terests of the country because of the ·exigencies arising out of the war. Precisely the same motives actuate the present Govern­ment in connection with this Bill. The hon. member in a long harangue endeavoured to misrerJresent the objects of the Bill, and, apparently, to alarm those who are desirous of placing their capital in the meat industry. The hon. member is himself unduly alarmed, and, either wittingly or unwittingly, .he has been communicating these false sentiments to men "ho are desirous of expanding the moat industry. 'l'he hon. member referred to a certain firm who have it in contempla­tion to erE,ct additional works at Gladstone. To show that the Government have no desire whatever to hamper or interfere in an:v undue way with this industry, I might give hon. members an idea of some of the negotia­tions that have been going on between the Government and the representatives of this firm-J\1essrs. John Cooke and Co.

Mr. BooKER : Since the Bill was prepared?

'l'he SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: Before and since the Bill was prepared the representatives of the company came to the Government and asked whether the Govern­ment were prepared to facilitate the extension of the wharf at Gladstone in

order to deal with the extra trade [9 p.m.] which would be brought to that

port because of the erection of additional meatworks in the vicinity of Glad­stone. 'The Government met the company in every way, and said that every assistance would be given to the Gladstone Harbour Board in order that facilities might bt' avail­able for the handling of the products of the meatworks; they gave every encouragement to that firm to go on with its enterprise, and on the strength of the%e assurances, I under­stand that the company purchased a site. That was prior to the introduction of th1s Bill. After the introduction oi this Bill, evidently the hon. member had been getting his work in, and the representatives of the company became alarmed. They waited on me and asked what was the real purport of the measure. They understood that it meant confiscation and the destruction of the in­dustry, and when I assured them that the Government would not be so foolhardy as to take an;r step likely to lead to the destruc­tion of industry in Queensland, or likely to lead, without reason or justification, to the confiscrttion of works-when the proper view of the situation was placed before that gentle­man he felt quite satisfied. He was con­siderably relieved, as from what he had heard he thought that the Government had some sinister motive behind this Bill to dispossess the owners of the meatworks that had been established here. It only shows that we must deprecate the attitude taken up by certain gentlemen and by certain members--the attit11de which was taken up by the hon. member for W.ide Bay-of exag­gerating the alleged evil effects of a measure of this kind. This measure is not intended to have any evil effect upon any industry in Qupensland, but is justified on exactly the same grounds as the Meat Supply for Im­perial L:ses Act was justified last year-the necessity of dealing with extraordinary cir­.cumstances which had arisen because ~f the war, and which exist now to a certain ex­tent, and which may continue to exist for ,some time in Queensland.

Mr. ARMSTRONG: Would you limit the application of the Bill to the period of the war, or six months afterwards?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: That is a matter for consideration ; I do not know whether the Bill is particularly limited to any period. The Sugar Acquisi­tion Act is in effect and in spirit equally drastic with this measure, yet because the im­mediate ncccssitv of it was shown, and it v, as realised that' the powon of that Act had been acted on all right, the Assembly saw no evil in that measure going through with expedition and be~o1ning law.

Yrr. AmrsTRONG : There was a lot of 'op­position.

The SECRETARY FOR P'CBLIC \YORKS: Ron. members alarm themeelves unduly about the operation of this measure and be­come excited, and are likely to scare people who have not time to digest the contents of this measure or to understand it. I say that that attitude is to be deprecated. This mea­sure is not one whit more drastic than the Sugar Acquisition Act. It was not said that because the Sugar Acquisition Act was passed here it meant the extinguishment of the sugar industry in Queensland or the destruc­tion of capital, and that Act also extended to other commodities than sugar. Certain hon. members did e~;.prEss alarm because 'it ex­tended to other commodities than sugar. They said that that was fahl to the measure, and indicated that the Government was going to pounce down suddenly upon other industri('S on this product or that product, for their o>~ n sf'lfish reasons, and thus caused alarm and disturbance in indus­tries in Queensland; but tho operation of that Act shows that those predictions had no foundation. Although it became necessary, as the Government predicted at that time, to extend the operations of the Act to other commodities than sugar-it was extended notablv to explosives-there has been no undue· harassment of industry or business any more than there is likely to be under this measure. It is only to place in the hands of the Government sufficient power to protect the interests of the community, and, if need be, the Empire itself during the prosecution of this war.

Mr. VowLES: Why don't you put that in the Bill?

The SECRETARY FOR FCBLIC \VORKS: The Government have as jmportant a duty to perform to the community in Queensland as it has to the Imperial authorities in the matter of the control of meat, and why at­tempt to restrict the powers of the Govern­ment in that matter? It was shown when the Meat Supply for Imperial 'Cses Bill was under discussion last session that it might be neces­sary to have powers similar to thmc we are aslnng for in this measure, and that, I think, was admitted by the then Minister for Public Instruction, Mr. Blair, whose re­marks indicated that he saw the possibility of asking for power such as that. It was stated l:iv my3e1f, at tho time when I was ,discussing the second reading of the measure, that I thought power should be posseboed by the Government to compel works to continue to treat stock supplied by the Government, not that I think that the majority of the com­panic" would have acted obstructively. Mr. Blair then interjected, " If they cease to treat stock, the works might have to be taken over." He saw the possibility, when that measure was under discussion, that a situation might arise under which the works might have to he taken over by the Government.

Mr. MoRGAN: It has not arisen now.

H on. E. G. 'l'heodore.]

778 Meatworks Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] 111eatworks Bill.

The t:IECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: If the meat companies adopted any hostile Oi' unreasonable attitude towards the Go­vernment, what would the Government do ?

Mr. MoRGAN: The meat companies have not adopted any unreasonable attitude.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I am not saying they have.

Mr. MoRGAN: Why this measure?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: Last year thoro was abundant evidence that the meat companies ware likely' to adopt a hostile attitude in connection with the meat for Imperial uses, and that was the reason for the Meat Supply for Imperial Uses BilL Mr. Barnes, the then Treasurer, when introducing the measure, indicated that the meat com­panies failed to come to some arrangement with the Government for the supply of meat at certain prices. They found that Act defec­tive in completing the arrangement with the meat companies, but the Bill was introduced because the meat companies would not come to any reasonable arrangel]lent with the Go­vernment. Mr. Barnes, when speaking on the initial stages of the measure last year, said that it was necessary to find out what quantities of meat were available, and if a common arrangement had been made pos­siblv there would have been no need for this legi'slation, but it was found that there were defects associated with the bringing about of this matter and that it was necessary to introduce legislation. They could make no arrangement with the meat companies at that time. I under,tand there were one or two companies which refused to come to some arrangement, but that showed the necessity for that measure, and it was also indicated by recponsible members of the Cabinet of tho dav that it might have been necessary to take possession of the meat­works in order to keep the supply of meat going to the old country for Imperial use>. With the limited power in that Act, drastic as it was, I think it loas been shown that they had not sufficient power, and that they were getting up against difficulties, and the possibility is that unless we get more power than we have now a·, a Gove1·nment we may not be able to cope with situations that may arise in Queensland.

Mr. MoRGAN: Has anv other State intro­duced a Bill like this? "

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: New South Wales pa>sed a Meat for Im­perial Uses Bill like this last year.

Mr. MoRGAN: Not a Bill like this, though.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: No other State has exactly the same cir­cumstances which obtain in Queensland with l'egard to meat supply. Queensland is the cattle State of Australia; more than half the cattle in Australia are located here. .

Mr. MoRGAN : Yes, beef, but not mutton.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: More than half the cattle in Australia are here. Certainly, so far as the industry is concerned, by far the major portion of the Australian industry is here in Queensland, and not in the other States of Australia. The other States of Australia may be looking towards Queensland for some solution of their problems in connection with the supply and distribution of meat. I think we have a very clear duty to the people of Queens-

[Hon. E. G. Theodore.

land no less than to the Imperial authorities, in the matter of handling this important question. ThPre is no intention on the part of the Government to unduly har!>ss the me~t industry, or .any company carrymg on .busi­ness in that 1m port ant mdustry; there IS no intention to harass any company at all,. or any business; and the fact that we are aslnng for the drastic power asked for here does not indicate that we are going to exert that power-that all that power is goi~g to ~e exerted so soon as we get possessiOn of 1 t if in the exertion of it an industry would be injured.

Mr. MORGAN : We cannot trust you.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: 'l'he people of Queensland trHst '!'S· The people of Queesland have placed us ~n power to do these things which we are askmg Par­liament to endorse. It is very unreasonable for any member of this Chamber to suggest that so soon as the power is placed in the hands of the Government it will be e::ce!ted to its fullest extent, no matter v.;ha t m]ury may be done because of the exertwn of such power.

Mr. VOWLES: That is our experience.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS : I am not concerned whether the hon. member is satisfied with his experience or not. The fact of the matter is that this Ho_use has alreadv gi·ren the Government CO";Sl.d!'lrable power" in connection with the acqms1t10n ~£ commodities, and that has not been ~sed m any wav that anyone can take exceptwn to. As a matter of fact, certain businesses and industries in Queensland are very h<tppy to­day because the Government s~ugh~ tl?-at power and exercised it and ':re usmg 1t w1th wise discretion. The sugar mdustr:1; has not complained because we have acqu~red pos­session of the sugar in Queensland. Tl~ose who are interested in the use of explosives have not complained because. we. have ac­quired possession of the explosives m Queens­land. In both those cases-the only two cases in which the power conferred upon the Government has be<!n exercised-great bene­fits have been conferred on the business and industries concerned, and there is not a tittle of evidence to show that if this Bill is. pa.ssed, even in its present form, that there :s hkely to accrue any injury at all to any :ndustry or business in Queensland. Any acbo_n th!"t the Government may take under th1s Blll will be calculated to benefit the people of Queensland without doing. any iJ?-i,ury to any individual or company domg leg1tJmate busi­ness in this State.

Mr. MORGAN: One must admit, after listening to the Minister who has just re­sumed his seat, that the han. gentlem':n h!"s practically assured the ;House that th~s B1ll was introduced as a p1ece of bluff-m the first instance for bluffing the meatworks, or· bluffing a very Important industry in Queens­land; and perhaps, secondly, to bluff. those unemployed who have been connecte:d w1th the meatworks and who met the Premier at that deputation that took place in the Trades Hall only a week or so ago. A~ that de]:!U· tation according to the report m the dmly Press' it was urged by the men that the meat{vorks had closed down owing to the fact that the Government had taken certain action, and, in order to retaliate for that action taken by the Government, they were determined not to go on killing stock. The Premier in his reply to the men, stated that if that 'was the case, then the Gavernment

Meatworks Bill. [ 16 SEPTEMBER.) Meatworks Bill. 779

were going to take measures ; they were going to immediately introduce a Bill that would show the meatworks that they could not do what they liked while the Labour Government remained in power, and the day following that deputation we had this Bill laid on the table of the House, which clearly shows and convinces members on this side of the House, at any rate, that the origina­tion or the early introduction of this Bill was brought about by that dPputation, which really the Premier waited on at the people's Parliament, the Trades Hall, a few weeks ago. One must admit also, after listening to the Secretary for Public Lands, who intro­duced the Bill, that a more insincere speech ha,s never been delivered in t,his Chamber. So far as the men who are unemployed are concerned, this Bill, while these men have asked for bread-or, in other words, work­gives them a stone-nothing more nor less. It is not going to relieve the unemployed. It is not going to do any good in any shape or form, but it is going to prevent capital being invested in the State. Not onlv is this Bill going to prevent the expenditu-re of capital in the State in connection with the meat industq•, but it is going to prevent the expenditure of capital in connection with other industries that may be of benefit to Queensland. We have one of our leading local papers publishing articles day after day that this is an opportune time for the establishment of certain industries, the manu­facturing industry in particular-why, at this particular time, men should come 'along with capital and put it into industries and establish certain works in Queensland. ·while good arguments have been given by many why industries should be established in Queensland, we find the Government come along with a Bill of this description, which practically affects every idustrv that may be established at the present time, or that may be Pstablished in the future so far as manu­factures are concerned, because this Bill does not confine itself solely to meatworks in Queensland. If the Minister was sincere that this Bill is necessary owing to the war, why has he not stated that the Bill will be limited to the period of the war? The Bill contains a proviso that it might go on for ever and ever, like Tennyson's brook. It is not in any way limited to the period of the war, and the experience that we have had in ~he past shows that we cannot trust the Ministers who are carrying on the different departments of the State. Although Minis­ters have only been in power a short time, what do we find? We find the Labour party to-day are taking advantage of the war­a mean despicable advantage owing to the fact that war is raging in Europe to-day­to introduce their socialistic measures, and wholly and solely under the guise that they are being introduced for war purposes; that they are being introduced to help the British nation and her allies to win the war. Noth­ing of the sort. Thr·;e are measures which have been advocated by the socialists for years and years, and now that they are in power they come along and tell the pedple that they are introducing these extremely socialistic measure,; in order to assist the British Empire to bring the war to a success­ful issue. V\7 e know that that is not the case. They are using the cloak of war for the purpose of bringing in these particular measures, and the effects are going to be far­reaching so far as this State is concerned. The hon. member for vVide Bay, who de­livered a very forcible address, spoke as the people are feeling in connection not only

with this particular Bill but in connection with numerous other Bills that have already been passed and have been introduced and are likely to be passed in the near future. 'l'hese measures are not going to do good so far as the workers of Queensland are con­cerned. and they are not going to do good so far as· the people who have money to invest are concerned. The Minister who introduced the Bill knows perfectly well that if he had his way, if he was not pushed by the Trades Hall he would never have attempted to have intra'duced a measure of this sort during the present session, at any rate. He knows per· fectly well as a commercial man who deals in produc~, that a Bill of this. descript!on is not gDing to do any g·ood; It rs not gorng to open the meatworks one day sooner. The Minister who has just resumed his seat knows perfectly well-he has admitted that, so far as the meat companies of Queensland are concerned, they have met the G_ov:ern­ment in every respect. Had the Mm,ster been able to come to this Chamber and tell us that he had had difficulty in securing meat at a fair and reasonable price for the Imperial Government; had he been able to come along and inform us that there were diffi­culties in connection with the different com­panies, and that, in order to get over those difficulties, it ''-"as necessary to pass a measure of this description, then we would have helped him in every way. But it is admitted that the meat companies have acted fail'ly and squarely in that direction. When any advance has been made to them they ha':e been willing to assist the Government. m obtaining the meat at a reasonable prrce. And we know what has occurred regarding certain transactions of the Minister for Lands. We onlv recently had word of the muddle that !Jqd been made in connection "ith meat for Victoria. and again the Minis­ter tried a game of bluff with the Minister for Agriculture in that State, because he sent meat that was not ordered.

The SECRETARY FOR PL:BLIC LANDS: That is not true.

::\Ir. MORGAN: Tho :Minister for Agricul­ture there refused to accept it at the price that wa" placed upon it by the Minister for Lands.

The SECRETARY FOR Pc:BLIC LANDS : He ordered it.

Mr. MORGA::--J: If he ordered it, then the Minister could have stuck to it, but instead h<: sent a wire saying, " If you do not ac­cept it, we will make other arrangements." and the Minister for Agriculture in Victoria. wired back, " Very well, make other ar­rangements," and now we see that the Premier of Queensland is hawking tripe and sheeps tongues and other delicacies round the city of ='<1elbournc in order to get rid of them and as,,ist the Minister out of a difficulty into which he might have got because his game of bluff did not come off. Now, we find that in an Act which was passed last R< so ion the Government have practically all the powers which are necessary so far as the acquisition of the meat supply of Queens­land is concerned. The Minister, or the Trc::tsurf'r, stated that Queensland possesses one-half of the cattle in Australia, which is perfectly true. But Queensland doc<~ not possess anyway near the amount of mutton which is possessed and killed in other parts of Australia,. Yet, notwithstanding that in every other State, with the exception of Victoria, a Labour Government is in power,

Mr. Morgan.]

780 Meatworlcs Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Meatworlcs Bill.

they have not found it necessary to come along with a Bill of tliis description to seize the meatworks in those States. Then, we must look at the price of meat in Queens­land to-day and compare it with the prices ''le find existing in other States, because one rea··•Jn which the Minister gaYo for taking over the meatworks was that it would chcap<n me"c to the consumer in this State. 'The Minister \Vas out at the saleyards at Rnngg0ra on \Y 0dne~da v. and saw the stocks of ('attic which were being sold-practically the pick of the ca l.tle in Queensla.nd to-da v from a killablc point or view--v. hich were b;·inging from 45s. to 50s. per cwt. Notwith­standii1g that, only this week similar cattle are bciLg sold in New South \Vales from 85s. to 90s. per cwt., so that fat cattle are bringing j Lrst double the prices in Victoria ~nd _New South \Vales that they are bring­mg m Queensland to-day.

Mr. BER1'RA1I: You sav there arc no fats in Qucen··land to-day. ·

Mr. MORGAN: I do not know whether the hou. member was out at the yards yesterday.

J\11._ BERTEA)I : Yes, I was.

Mr. MORGAN: Were there any fats there?

Mr. BERTRAM: No.

11r. MORGAN: And if there were no fats in the principal market of Queensland, does not that bear out my contention that there are practically no fats in this State?

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Not neces~arily.

Mr. MORGAN: It is no use the Minister for Agriculture· coming along and telling the people that there are hundreds in the Gulf country and the far Western districts be­cause we cannot get them here to have them slaughtered. 'Yo know that there are some parts '?f Queensland where the drought does not exJSt, but, unfortunately, the cattle are in places from where they cannot he brought to the cities for slaughter. But nobodv knows better tha.n the Minister for Agricul­ture, and nobody knows better than the Min~ster for Lands, that taking the greater po':tiOn of Queensland-that is, the portions whrch are near t<J the railways and to market facilities-even in those areas the people cannot get cm;ugh to fill th:ir own require­ments. That IS '':'hat IS tak111g place in my own electorate, 111 the Maranoa and in other electorates in QueenslaX::d. The butchers in the little towns and hamlets and village,. cannot get enough cattle to feed the people in their own districts. Yet ;"'8 are told that the rneatworks are not bm--111g cattle simply to retaliate on the Go­vernment _because they acquired their meat. It was sard at a deputation at the Trades Hall only te.n or twelve days ago--

The SE"RETARY FOR PI:BLIC LANDS: I thought you said you did not know anything about what happened at the Trades Hall

Mr. MORGAN: Fortuna.telv I read oa little bit of an account, in whi~h one of the speakers W'iS reported to have said that he did nc:t think it right for the hon. member to he 111 the Cabinet, that he was not a real Labour represc,ntative; and that men like the hon. member had no right to be in a Labour Government. No doubt, the member for

[Mr. Morgan.

Maranoa read that particular aeoount. It appeare-d in the " Daily Standard," the official organ of the Tra-des Hall.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : There were about 2.000 persons in the Murilla who said that you should not be in Parliament.

Yir. ::\10RGA::'\f: There may have been, but they were not men oi my own political views.

The SPEAKER : Order !

::\1r. :MORGAN: \Vel!, I am only answer­ing interjections, .and if you l1llow the Minister t0 interject I must reply. I think :y0u \vill agcee that interjections are nob courtcotH, but if one is t:tade I must reply to that particular interjection. ·

The oECRETARY FOR AGRIC<:LT<:RE: Not neceds:trily.

:VIr. ::\I ORGAN: I hopo and trust that the Bill will be amended in Committee. Per­sonally, I would like to see the Bill with­dm\\n altogether, becanse I really think there is no necz·>Jsity for it. I think it is only introduced for the purpose of pouring oil on the troubled waters, so far as the unem­plo;,·Nl from the meatworks aro concerned. Instead of going and meeting the men and telling them that, notwithc,tanding the fact that this Bill might become law, the Govern­ment have no intention of taking over the rne-at\yorks--

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : W auld it not be a good thing for you to use the oil­can a little, instead of trying to frighten people outside?

Mr. MORGAN: It is right, when a Bill so far-reaching as this is introduced, to let the people know exactly what it contains. That is what we are here for as an Opposition. Should we allow the Bill to go through with­out showing people outside exactly what power we me placing in the hands of the ::\1inistr:y? Arxl hon. members know perfectly well that, however a certain section of the commLmity trust the Ministry, the people who have capital to establish industries and give employment do not. They aro not people who are prepared to sink their money in establishing industries if legislation of the nature of this purticular Bill is to become law .and hang over their heads, because, as I havG said before, if this Bill passes, we give the Government a power which no other Government possesses in the States of Aus­tralia.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : Then this will be the strongest Government in Aus­tralia?

Mr. MORGA~: Why should we give the :Ministry power to take advantage of this Bill, a most destructive Bill? When we as an Oppmition do not trust the Ministry, will the people who supporte-d us oand put us here have any confidence in t,he present Govern­ment? We should not be fulfliling our duty if we allowed a Bill of this description to pass its second reading unless we know per-

fectly well that we shall have an [9.30 p.m.] opportunity of amending it in

the direction we think it should be amended when it goes into Committee. vVe could not amend the Bill which passed its third reading this afternoon in a certain direction, owing to the fact that the Chair­man of Committees ruled, no ·doubt cor­rectly,· !hat the proposed amendment was

Meatworks Bill. [16 SEPTEMBER,] Meatworlcs Bill. 781

inadmissible. I hope that at the Committee stage we shall be a,ble to introduce amend­ments in this Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : There is nothing to stop you.

Mr. MORGAN: There is nothing to stop us, except the gag, which the Treasurer has become a past-master in using. We have been told that the Minister for Agriculture i11 endeavouring to ascertain the number of killable cattle in Queensland at the present time. I hope he will be successful in his endeavour, but if he is, he wili be a cleverer man than I take him to be, because there are a number of graziers in Queensland who cannot tell you what killable cattle they possess to-day, owing to the. fact that during drought periods their cattle are allowed to distribute themselves into scrubs and other out-of-the-way places, and they are not going to muster the cattle for the purpose of <lis­covering how many they still possess. These conditions are not known to city repre­sentatives, and they do not understand the difficulties experienced by graziers in dis­tricts which are now suffering from drought. To send out officials to discover the number of fat cattle-- -

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : They are already out.

Mr. MORGAN: Well, I hope you will give whatever information you get from them to the House, but I feel sure that when you get that information it will not be reliable. I have had my boys huY~ting for cattle in the scrub in order to find a beast fit to kill, so that we could have a bit of fresh meat. We have not tasted fresh meat for a fortnight or three weeks, and we, as well as a number of ethers, are trying to get a beast to kill, but unfortunately we cannot di>cover the cattle. V•i e are producers of beef, but to­day we are buyers of beef frow any place where we can get it. I shall next week intro­duce to the Minister a deputation, the mem­bers of which will tell him that some of the people in the localities in which they live have not tasted beef or mutton for over a month. If that kind of thmg happened in Brisbane we should hear a howl of indigna­tion, and we should have all the red-raggers and agitaton interviewing the Government and wanting to know why anyone should have to go a day without fresh meat. Yet that is what is occurring in my electorat" and in other electorates in Queensland, and nobody knows that better than the Minister for Lnnds. I hope and trust that other members will point out the fallacies which exist in this Bill, and that we shall be able to amend it in certain directions in Com­mittee, especially in the ·direction of pro­viding that it shall not operate for a longer period than the war.

Mr. FORSYTH (Murrumba): I do not intend to occupy the time of the House at any length in speaking on the second read­ing of this Bill. A few minutes will suffice for all I want to say. What I particularly want to find out is what reason the Govern­ment hav2 for bringing in the Bill. Have they found out that fat cattle are available, or that the meatworks will not carry out their obligations? I challenge the Minister to produce any evidence to show that the meatworks are not prepared to continue to supply meat lf they can get the cattle and to work with the Government under fair and equitable conditions. The· provisions of the Meat Supply for. Imperial Uses Bill which

we passed last year were very drastic, but in view of the fact that the measure was for the benefit of the Imperial Government and the people of Queensland, there was not a single member in the House who objected to it, and there was not a single meatworks in Queensland which objected to it. They were quite ready to m8et the Government in any way they liked. The Government found that the various meatworks were will­ing to fall into line with them, and they did not put those drastic provi&ions into opera­tion. Every single meatworks has been will­ing to supply meat for the Imperial Govern­ment at 4-}d. per lb., a most unreasonable price when you compare it with the price for beef of the same quality in London to­day, and they were prepared to give every single pound of meat they had to the Im­perial Government, if necessary. But that meant that they could only bLlY cattle on the basis of the price they got for their meat. 'I'he price to the Imperial Government has been exceptionally low. vVhy, then, is this Bill introduced? Have the Government found out that the meatworks will not fall in with any legislation for the good of the Imperial Government or the people of Queensland? No, they have not found out anything of the kind. The whole secret of the introduction of the Bill is to be found, as far as we can understand. in that great speech delivered by the Premier at the­Trades HalL and reported in the " Daily Standard" of the 2nd September. A state­ment had been made to the effect that sus­picion had been aroused, and that it was thought that the meatw 'rks had closed down out of re"entment. Yet the hen. gentleman stated that he had faun<.! papers in the Chief Secretary's Office which showed that the mcatworks were likelv to close down about September. He said that if it was true that they had closeJ down out of resentment he would take action, and commandeer the meatworb. if. necessary. The bon. gentle­man further said that there was a great shortage of cattle in Queensland. As a mat­ter of fact, every year, except last year, the meatworks in Queensland have closed down at the same time. They will keep their mee_tworka open so lung as they can get the stock, and then that stock can be comman­deered for the Imperial Government, every pound of it. There has been no complaint at all from the mcatworks. \Vhv, then, do the Government want to introduce this Bill? What is the object of it? Surely we are entitled to get that information? Can the Government show me where the meatworks have refused to fall int<J line with them? There is not the slightest need to bring in legislation of this kind unless the Govern­ment can show me that the meatworks have refused to fall into line with them. The whole evidence given again and again ehows that the meatworks are wiiling to assist the Governrnent in any "\vay at all, and so long as they can get cattle they are willing to go on. The closing down of the meatworks means an enormous loss to the company own­ing them. If they coulJ carry on they would do eo. SuppoBe a draper or a storekeeper said, " \Ve will close down our business for three or four months," what would happen? The business would be so dislocated that they would lose a lot of their custom. The busi­ness would be ruined. So it wc>alr' be with the meatworks. They do not want ro clv'e down the meatworks if they can possibly get the cattle. They have to keep the staff on just the same-not the butchers, of course,

Mr. Forsyth.]

782 111eatworks Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Meatworlcs Bill.

because as there is no cattle to kill there is no need for the butchero. I challenge any member of this House to procluce a tittlfl of evidence to show that the nttJat ,vor:i:s are 11ot willing to n1eet the Governrne11t ilnd !:' s:;is!i them in every way with regacd ta m<'at sup­plies for the Imperial Govermnent.

Tho SrcRETARY FOR AGRICULTT!RE: They will after this Bill is passed into law.

l\Ir. FORSYTH : Thev will do it volun­tarily. The various meat'-·orks in Queensland to-day have a~crced to give the Imperial Go­vernment 2,00U tons a month until D•.cember. \Yhen De' ember comes, all the meat will be gone uule~·-"; they can get more supplie"' in the meantime. If they get mar.- supplie3, they are willing to go and give tho Imperial Government everv hoof. Look at the Bill. The Government- can put a controller in if they are not satisfied that the business is being carried on in the public interest. The meat is being sold at a low price to-day. It i being cold at an infinitely lower price than the pric<e ruling in London to-day.

The SECRETARY FOR Ac:RICULTURE: \Yhero " this chr,:tp rneat '?

:,Ir. FORSYTH: The meat that is going home evcrv month from the meatworks. They can o;1ly affm·d to give a certain price for the meat, became the price is fixed at which they mu't sell. They would like to keep going for the whole year. l: nder this Bill the Govamuent can commandeer tho whole buoincss. They can put a controller in, and b.- can do a lot of things. The condi­tions mentioned in the Bill are of such a con­temptible nature that I cannot understand how anyone could introduc,, such a clause.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Don't ~"o,:; that.

2\h. FORSYTH: Linder this Bill the Go­vernnlC'nt c.1n re -trict the business of the nif~UtWl}rks, and c ;n ruin it· if they like. Surh a Bill '·~·a, rwver introduced 1n unv Legislature in tho Brit,sh Empire. I say dmt if thL UoYernment are determined to take over tlH:se work"") thE:n if any loss ;wcrucs, the Government should bear the Joss themselves. The Government do not be­lieve in that principle at all. They talk ubout not harassing tho people. The Govern­ment are not fair and equitable in this Bill. The Trear-cucr mentioned that thev did not want to harass anyone, but they ~vanted to do the fair thing. As a matter of fact, we had a Bill passed last night which is to con­J.iscate the business of the people. I would not trust the Labour party with this Act, or any other Act, as far as I could sling a bullock by the· tail. I would not take their word, becaucn their word is no good.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRIOl:LTURE: They would not trust you out of their sight.

Mr. FORSYTH : After passi11g that '\;Yorker,' Compenc,.ation Bill, I certainly would not trust them with this Bill. If the Governmm1t are not satisfied, they can put a man in charge of the works. They can do all so_rt; of things. They are treating these people as if they bad been fighting against the GoVPJ.'!lment all the time. I challenge .myone to prove that they have been doing ao~thing exc,·pt to help the Government in every way. If you can produce any evidence, bring it in. If you can show me any evi­dence that these people are not prepared to .act justly to the community, I will support

[21-.fr. Forsyth.

the Government· up to the hilt in connection with legislation of this sort; but I will not d•> EO until I am convinced that the Govern­ment arc right in tho matter. If they think the meatworks are not acting- in the public intereot, they can take possession of the pro­pc rty. Who is going to value the property? The Governor in Council or the Land Court; and there is to be no 'tppeal. Such legis] a­t ion I have never heard of in my life. There is no appeal. Their determination is final. It may cost £250,000 to put up the property, and the value placed on it may be £150,000, and there is to be no appeal. This Bill is against justice and libeTty. If a man wants to hke over the property of another man, and he fixes his valuation, surely the owner c£ the property has a right of appeal if he dc.es not ,get his right valuation? You are simply robbing him. It is nothi11g but rob­bery and confiscation, which can be carried out at the sweet will of the Labour party. I cannot understand why any Go.-ernm<Jnt 'hould introduce a Bill like this unless they ,,re sure that the meatworks are not going to 1neet them. I chal1engt any 1nmnber of this House and I challenge the Treasurer to bring any evidence to show that the meat­works are not willing to meet the Govern­mont in every way. If the Government asked them to do ce·rtain things, and they said ''No," then I can understand the Govern­ment introducing such legislation as this. If the meatworks company said, "Vie ara not prepared to do this, that, and tho other," thPn th~ Government would be justific·d in introducing this Bill. The mcatworks have alway.::> been 1villing to assist the Govennnent h e' ery possible way, and they arc willing t' give every single pound of meat they have got for the use of tho Imperial Government o,' for the usc of the people. This !egisla­tie>n i, a sampl' of the confiscatory soci;distic lc~·islation we are going to get in the future. Hundreds of thousands of pounds have been invested in them meatworks, and the Go­ycrnmcnt are going to pay for it \Yith Go­vermwmt stock. \Vlwn tlw Imperial Govern­ment bought the me.,_t in England. they did not offer Trea ury bills in payment, bearing interest at 4 or 5 per cent. When they bought the beef the money was there to pay for it -hard coin of the realm. That is busino.o=,•,.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTl:RE : Did you never buy goods on credit?

:Yir. FORSYTH: Yes, but I have always paid cash in the long run. I never paid for anYthing with Trewmry bills.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : Did you alwa_1s pay cash down?

Mr. FORSYTH : Well, it does not matter whether you pay cash down or not, so long as yon pay. Sometimes <1 man has not got the cash, and in that case he gives promissory­notr·' for three, four, or fiye monthb, and " 11en the notes fall due he meets them. That is ex-actlv what the Government should do. Inst-ead of doing that, they roy to the owner o;: meatworks, " \.V e will take over your pro­perty at our own price, and we will pay you with a Government debentuce." That Go­vernment debenture mav fall in value 15 or 20 per cent. within twch;e montrs, so that, in addition to the possibility of haying to take a k'·s price in tho first instance than the works are worth, there may be tho further lo··s through depreciation of the Government debenture. Such a system is unfair, <:tnd is

Jvieatworks Bill. [16 SEPTEMBER.) Meatworks Bill. 783

absolutely unjust. The Government may go to a man and say to him, "You are not working your r:usiness in the public interest~; so vve are going to put 111 a cont~oller. That c0ntroller g·oes m, and be vanes the business; he '•tops the businc·-<s; he may spend thou.sands and thousands of pounds on it ancl then the owners of the works '"ll h~ ve to foot the bill.

Hon. J. ToLl\IIE: And it is to be a first -charge, too.

Mr. FORSYTH : It is one of the most inc 1uitablo s~·stoms I ever heard of. ·'"nd thi5 is what they call "socialism" on the other side ! That is what we may expect from them. That controller can ruin a man's !Jnsinoss: thoro is no question of goodwill or <:'omnensution for the dislocation d business. Thi~ i5 what they c.all honest British justice on the oth(>r side ! ·well, I have another name fo1~ it. I ~~ay it is confiscation 1 111ue and simple. I challenge any member on the other side to produce a tittle of evidence to show that ·anv of the m!'atworks from begin­ning to end ·have not clone eyerything pos­sible to ,supply beef to the fn:>)Jerial Govern­ment without the sligl1test domur. The price oF 4ltrl. per lb. '""' accepted without demur. If any m·i·dence whatever could bo <tclclucecl to show that the meat companies haYc shown ths slig·htcst disposition not to as,ist the Imperial Government, I would vote for the Bill; h.1t no such evidence can he produced. The componies have supplied the Imperial Gon:rnmont with 2.000 tons oi beef a month, and they will continue to supply that quan­tit v to tho end of December; and. if thev are <>hie to supPly any more they will be only too glad to do cO- Anyunc who kno>Ys any­thing at all about the bueincss knows that it me1ns a great loss to close works for five -or six months if it is possible to get stock. Every year since meatworks started opera­tions in Quc;onsland they have cloS<:'d for several months. That being so, why ,,-.as this Bill intr.oduced? vVhnt do tho Govern­ment >Ytmt it for? Have the meatworks ever hown the slig-htest re~entment, or ha vo they

over tried not to do the be,t they could in the public interests? Not a single man on the other side can get up and say one word to the wntrarv. The Secretary for Public Lands, or the. Secretary for Agriculture­whichever of them ·has this business in hand -has had his inspectors out all over the plnce. but they have never yet pr<"ente·d to this House any report from those inspectors a''' to the number of fat cattle available in the State. \V c do not care whether they give us surh reports or not. because the people ·who are interested in the business know that there are very few fat cattle in Queensland to-clay_

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICuLTL:RE: You arc: .a "know all."

Mr. FORSYTH: I am not a "know alL" The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: I repeat

that you are a " know all."

Mr. FORSYTH : I am not a "know all," but I think I know as much about tliat part -of the business as the hen. gentleman. The bon. gentleman knows nothing at all about

1l;his business.

Mr. APPEL : Do you know anything about the hon. member for H<>rbert?

M:r. FORSYTH: I know a good dl·al about the hon. member for Herbert. I do

not think there is a member in this House who has less application than the hon. mem­ber for Herbert, and his opinion, either in connection with this Bill or in connection with any other Bill, is generally of a most ',uperficial nature.

Tho SECRETARY FOR AGRIC'ULTL:RE: \Vhen did you make that discovery?

Mr. FORSYTH: I discovered it long ago, and I have told the hon. gentlemau about it before no\Y.

The SECHE'rARY FOR AGRICULTURE: No one take, any notice of what you tell anybody. You get all :vour information from the "Inc·urance and Banking Record."

'l'h-c SPEAKER: Order!

l\Ir. FORSY'.t'H: ·wherever I get my m­formation from, it is generally from a good sourc•·. The hon. gentleman is about the lust man I would ask for information in connection with finance or anything else.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Then how was it your firm paid me £1,000 a year for ten years?

:Ylr. FORSYTH: I do not know. I don't think it was a good bargain.

The SPEAKER: Order!

Mr. FORSYTH: Anyhow, we had to sh;ft the hon. gentleman later on.

Tho SECRETAHY FOR AGHICL:LTrHE: That IS

a downright and infan1ous misrepresenta­tion-a dcliberote liP.

OPPOSITION MDIBERS : Oh. oh ! The SPEAKER: Order!

Tho SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: It is a deliberate lie that .J ou have told.

The SPEAKEH: Ordt r! I muet ask the SecretCLry for Agriculture to take notice of my call.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRIC1:LTURE: What \vas your call, 1\lr. Speaker?

The SPEAKER: I called "Order " three timu. I must a ,k tho hon. member to with­dra·w what he has just said.

The SECRET.1RY FOR AGRICULTURE: Since the t0rm " deliberate lie " is not per­mitted in this Assembly I withdraw it but I will cay it freely out~ido. '

Mr. APPEL : You are not game.

The SECRETAnY FOR AGRICULTCRE: I am. The SPEAKER: Order!

Thi' SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: l will repeat it now if ho comes outside.

The SPJ~AKER: _Order! I hope the hon. member will now discuss the Bill.

The SECRETAHY I 0R AGRICl:LTURE: Come outside now. and I will say it to either of you.

The SPEAKER : Order !

Mr. FORSYTH: The hon. member must take tho consequences of what he sav~. I have no desire to discuss that quc~tior{, but, as the hon. gentleman raised it he got the full strength of it. '

The SEcn::TARY FOR AGRICULTURE· \Yell be c~vil. · '

Mr. FORSYTH: So far as this Bill is conca·necl I am done. If it comes to a division, I shall certainly vote aga.inst the

Mr. Forsyth.]

784 Meatworks Bili. [ASSEMBLY.] Meatworlcs Bill.

Bill because I look upon it as unjust and abs~lutely unnecessary, and because it has only been introduced for the one purpose of plea,ing the Trades Hall.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Speak the truth if you can.

Mr. APPEL (Albert): I do not propose to occupv the attention of the House for any length of time in discussing this Bill on the second reading.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRIOULTUHE: Hear, hear!

Mr. APPEL: I do not propose to take any notice of any interjections from the Secretary for Agriculture, because I am sure that just at the present moment he is a little bit ex­cited and does not mean what might be implied from his words.

Tho SPEAKER : Order !

Mr. APPEL: Certainly. Having said a few words on the previous meae•~re when it was introduced, I should like to add now to what I then stated. I muet in the first place

compliment the hon. member for [10 p.m.] Wide Bay, who spoke on behalf

of the leader of the Opposition, on the speech which he made on the subject. I do not suppose that there is another man in the House' v:,ho has a greater or more inti­mate knowledge of the subject-matter of this Bill than that hon. member, and the infor­mation which he gave to the House I have no doubt will be of very considerable af,">ist­arlcc in c'nabling us to con1o to a co:nclusion on this mdter. So far as the meatworks themselves are concerned, I do not profo,'l to be a friend of the meatworks or of the shareholders in the meatworks. Although I do not suppose' there is any eYidonco thet there was any combine on t~. vnt of the meatworks to ruise the pric<' of meat, yet thPrc is no question that, owing to the very considerable addition to the price of meat, a suspicion arose in the minds of the public, and, perhaps, justifiably so--

:Mr. FORSYTH and the SECRETARY FOR AGHI­CULTURE conversing in loud tones--

The SPEAKER : Or.der !

Mr. APPEL: That some combination ~xisted amongst them for the pm·pose of in­creasing the price, and I have advocated, and would still advocate, a measure which would deal with trusts and monopolies, whereby the prices of these commodities and the intemsts of the public may be safeguarded.

The SPK.\KER: Order! I must ask the Secretary for Agriculture and the hon. mem­ber for Murrumba to obey my call to order.

Mr. APPEL: My contention in regard to this matter is that the Sto.te proposes to cre:<te a monopoiy in acquiring control of all the meatwcrks in the State; but in this particular instance the State dop-; not pro­pose to eonfic~cato t,ho property in connection with the meatworks. but to compensate the owne'n:. I do not hold with the hon. member for \Vide Bay that, so far as that com­pensation is concerned. a considerable loss might be suffered by the sharuholders, inas­much as the numbers of stock in Queens­land maY decrease, because I am one of those wh~ believe that the number of stock in Qu.,ensland i' not likely t,) decreaso, and that it is fnll value for the amount which it represe'nts. But my concern is this : The

[MT. Forsyth.

Government, in paying for stock, are not required t<' pay money out of the; Treasury, but thev will have to find the mter,cst, so far as t"hat particular stock is concerned. The question now is : Is it desirable at the present time, "\vith th0 stringency of the money mar~ ket and the fact that a large amount of mo~ey is required for many other purposes, to my mind of far greater urgen_cy than the acquiremt>nt of meatworks, whJCh I have alrcadv ;ndicated might be rc;ccuhted by th" introduction of a measure-is it wise that, the Government should ePter into this large liabilitv? When speaking a few days ago on this matter, I stated that it was not a matter of thousands of pounds, or hundreds of thousands of pounds, but that the acquire­ment of meatworks in Queensland w0uld aggregate several millions of pounds. Al­though the State may pay these by <;lovcrn­mtmt debentures, yet they must find mtc>rest to a large amount on those debenture''''· Out­side of that, how will the State go on when thev han' acquired these meatworks ·1 I may mention that I am not going to arrive at the conclusion from the fact that a large number of meatworkers who were out of employment waited upon the Government that they had anything to do with the introduction of this measure. I think that we should rise to a. higher level than that.

GovERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. APPEL : Although we are in opposi­tion. and our opponents are on the Treasury benches, I do not attach any w,eight to the argument which has been adduced that, bec,mse a certain number of meatworkers ''ho were out of employment waited upon th0 Government, the Government propo'c to undertake the acquire m•ont of these me:lt­works. I propose to deal with the matter from a different standpoint-that is. the ad­,+,ability of the State cntering into this great. venture', which, to my mind, will not prove a succe>'s in the hands of the State, bul. rather a failure'. There are so many matters connected with it, so far as tl1e supply of cattle is concerned. Taking the supply of cattle, it will be nec2ssary, if the State ac­quires the meatworks, that the State in the first imtanc? should regulate the price of cattle in the State; that we should pass a measure that no live stock is permitted to go outside the State. The State will have the right in the first instance to acquire the cattk produced by those who are engaged in the industrv.

'Mr. ~'\RMSTROXG : At a price on the hoof?

Mr. APPEL : At a price on the hoof. Is that a good proposition or not? Is it a pro­position which will benefit the State or the producer? Before we began to export meat, all those who are engaged in the industry are aware of the fact that the average price of the prime,,t cattle on the hoof did not exceed '£2 lOs. per boast.

::'vir. AR:I!STROXG: Yes, more.

Mr. APPEL: That was the average price of the primest bea ,ts which were produced in this State, and it was only when we got an

'outlet by export that higher prices were got. In that connection, I desire to add a tribute to Mr. Mort, who spent most of the large fortune he possessed in endeavouri;:,g to show th"t it was possible to export frozen mer.tt to Great Britain. Those of us who take an intorc"t in the subject remember that t·ime after time the freezing machinery on the

1VIeatworks Bill. [16 SEPrE?II:BER.] 1)([ eatworks Bill. 785

Yessels which were freighted with the meat broke down. with the result that i\1r. :l'dort suffered a loss of thousands and thousands of pounds on those shipments. Yet he persevered, with the result that Bventually it became a feasible and busincqlike pi'O­p:Jsitiou to CAport m'-'at to Great Britain. Th~~ result '>;:as that the price c£ cattle rose in proportion to the amount which wec; paid for that beast in tho n1~n·kcts cf G1·oat Britain. 'Yhat was the,· re·ult of the <Lifer­one J in price which 'vas p,,jd bcf,)ro th~re was any expert ard the' price wh:dr '"as paid for cattle aft0r it b:_',':~rne a feasible and buRi­nc~slih:c propositi<Hl to F-,:port c,~ttlo? '1-,he 1'(\-.:.ult \YitS that a largo a1nonnt o; f;Old \vas l c•turned to Queensland in exchange for that beef, and we know that thut golcl w .1s not hoarded up, t1u'-t it was circulated, and t1 1 a.t O\i::rv mon1be'r in the c,__,mn1unitv received a co-rresponding benefit. \Vha'G is· to be the ~ondition if the GoY 2rmnent in the fir--t in­stance monopolise the meatworks?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : 'I'hat has nothing to da with the first instance. That is the last resort.

Mr. APPEL: We haYe to consider the powers contained in the Bill. In dealin0 with the proposition here it is not the minf­rnum quantity that we have to deal with· it is tho n1axin1un1 quanti tv, and tho max.im'u1n quantity i0 that the StatA may create a monopoly and that the State may have to pay millions of pounds as compensation to the proprietors of those meatworks.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Does not the State take power to punish robbers?

Mr. APPEL: Quite so; and I have already indicated that the whole object could haV(" been attained by a Bill which would regulate the meah' arks without entering into these great obligations.

The SECRET.~RY FOR PUBLIC LANDS·. This Bill does that.

Mr. :-"'-P.PEL: I am of a different opinion. The Brll F one that enables the Government to create a monopoly in conned:ion with this matter,_ bet'~USP you hexe all the provisions for domg so. I would like to remind the Sem·ctary for Public Lands that when I rose to speak I said I approached it from a different standpoint; it was not from the standpoint that I was absolutely opposed to the Bill, and in voicing my views I am simply pointing out some of the dangers that exist in connection with the measure. If it was simply to be confined to •he period of the war I would gladly support it hut thrcre is no limitation to tho me,, •nre.' arod that is just the point that I would like to emphasi•·e.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE : You didn't raise that objection to the Workers' Co1npensat:ion Act.

Mr. APPEL: That •s quite another mat­ter. If the Ministry came to this House and suggested that dnring the duration of t!JC war they should have compiete cuntrol of th•"-8 mea.tworks is one which should b,, to say that it was a rea;zonable proposition, but a propositio:o which gives the GoYem­ment the power to create n monopoly of these mcah\orb is one which should be viewed with very considerable tre•Jiclation. owing to the fact of the obligations that will be incurred thereby and owing to the fact of the !egiP!ation that will be neces-

1915-3 c

mry, and not for the benefit of the pro· ducer, in order to n1ake it a sv.ccess. I YenttH'e to >ay that that legislation "ill not be a snccesd, because it is only through the means of export of meat that we have received a large return in gold which has gone into circuhtion in the State for tho benefit of ever3 member of the community. Unquestionably if the State creates a mono­poly in connection with meat preeerving ancl the slaughtering of cattle, it will be neces­s:try for them to take power to control the export of cattle and to regulate the price of cattle on the hoof. We all know that at the present time in the greater portion of Queensland the men who are engaged in the raising of cattle have not been too pros­pm·ous. In fact, I dare say han. members vvho, during the. recruiting campaign, visited tlw various p"rts of the State west from the coast were able to see for themselves the unfortunate condition of the men who are engaged in this industry. Are we goiHg to impose an embargo, an extra. burden in addition to that which Nature has already placed upon them? It is only from that standpoint that I am criticising this measure. The i:lecretary for Agricuiture may think I am hostile to his Government because he is on that side and I am on this side, but that is not so. I am simpl:: here for the purpose of criticising. accordmg to my lights, a measure which I do not honestlv think is for the benefit of the Government of the State, or of tho people of the State, and I am pointing out one or two of the reasons why I do not think this is a feasible or good proposition to be undertaken at the present tim0. If it was ·a matter for the acquire­ment of the,~e works during the period of the war, it would receive my support, because there are conditions existing- at the present time which mitlte it de,irable while the war lasts and supplies are required by our troops and by our allies. It is necessary at any risk and whatever the loss may be to any person engaged in the industry, whether they are connected as shareholders of meatworks or whether they are producers, that they should bear the burden. But to pass a mea­sure vvhich has no limit, \vhif'h will enable the Government to create a monopoly in r--mnection with the meat industry, is an un­businesslike proposition which will not be of bcnc·fit to the Government, which will not be of benefit to the producer, and which will not lower the price of meat to the'consumer. That is the phase of the question that we have to consider. There are two great essen­tials in the State of Queensland. One of those ecsontials is population and the con­sequent settlement on the land, and the second es-,ential is the introduction of capital to enable that settlement to be carried out. If all three re,trictions are put upon those who ai'C prepared to enter into our indus­tries. the State will not be able to obtain thl'­additional population nor the additional capital. The gentlemen who cccupy the T,·easury bcnche" to-de.y. although perhaps they aro not aware of it, are more parti­cularly conr.,rned in thctt phase of the ques­tion than the Opposition. 'I'hey will diecovc1· when thcnr find their revenue is decreasing that their obligations are increasing, that the:: are unable to carry out their aspira­tions, and they can cany out mane- of their aspirations if they do not venture into what I have no hesitation in sa}'ing are wild cat unbusinesslike propositions.

The SECRITARY FOR AGRJCUJ,TURE: If thev fail, you will be very delighted. will you not?

Mr. Appel.]

786 Meatworks Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Jlil eatwo r ks Bill.

Mr·. APPEL: No, I will not, because, un­fortunately, I am oue of tho_,e who will have tJ pay y;hen a Governnvcnt, whether com­posed of members on this side or on that sirlc, mako f-ailur<·'· It is all verv well for hon. "wP.:h:rs. "\vhn h,-<ve no stak8 or int':~rost in

thi3 grc:t country of ours to say, "¥lell~-Th~ S;;CRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: ·what do

you me-an b;.· "shtkr "? What about the man y;·ith a family; is that no stake?

Mr. APPEL: The hon. member ought to be :l'"luuned of -him&elf i~, having 1ft i\tlnily, he is not prcpa:-ed to safcguar.d theil' interc;{t and th.e pros.Jerity of this groat Shte of oub

Mr. H. L. HARTLEY: rhat i; what we .n.e doing.

Mr. APPEL: One way of doing it-by ruining their prospects. I have no doubt that the hon. member, so lar ao hie child>·en are coneerned, ·does not care a snap of tho fingers what becomes of then:.

Tho SPEAKEH.: Order !

Mr. APPEL: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. I am sure you will admit that I was led away by the hon. member to make the obcer­vation J did. I have not invited the inter­jection. The h<:'c:. member is very excited anrl heaterl this evening. It may be due to the atmosphere, the storm that did not break. We know that he is in a very excited temper.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Oh, no; he 1s not.

The SPEAKER : Order !

'IJw. SECRETARY FOR AGRICliL'I"URE: ',Vhat about YungaLurra--you were very excited then. And at Coolangatta, too.

:VIr. APPEL: I am not going to be led a WdY from my remarks by the hon. rr,ember. He talko abuut Coo:ano-atta. If he would cool himself a little it ":,auld be 'better for hin1.

The SECRETARY JWR AGRICULTURE: Yunga­burra!

::\Ir. APPEL: And if he were a little young,_r, he might be able to burrow a little more. (Laughter.) I ctave yc.cq: pardon, Mr. Speaker, becuuse you will admit that the han. member ha,o .led me .astray. (Laughter.) It is not the first time he has led me astray, and I suppose it will not be the last. But still, I do not "ant him to go a:stray_ on this important matter. I should hke hun for one moment to reah•e what the effect of this legislation will be; and when he realise<; the effect it will have I hono the result will be thet amendments ~ill be~ ;;,adP. in it in Committee whereby it will be limited to the duration of the y,ar and that other :'mendm<mts "ill be accr,ptdd by han. mem­.uers on the Treasury benches. As we all know, they have an overwhelmino- majority but I take it that they are open~ to reason: If th;y ar<; not, then, of course, we can 'lXpecc nothmg. I see the hon. member for Bowen. I have always regarded him as a mo'it reasonable member who was alwavs open to argument. ' ·

Mr. McLACHLAN: Always ready to argue.

Mr. APPEL: And .always ready to argue as the han. member for Merthyr sa0B. At th~ same time, I hope he will n.ardon me for suggesting that by putting -a.oide his own f\xpd ideas, and gh·ing consideration to the effect that this ~ill will haye on tho people and the prospenty of the State, he will be

(.lfr . .Appel.

one of the first-and I trust that members sitting on the Treasurv benche>; \Yill not be behind him-in accepting any reasonable amendment from men who ha, e some know­ledge of the matter.

Mr. VO\VI,ES (Dalby) : I notice that the preamble of the Bill says that it is " A Bill Lo provide for the regulation of mcatworks a11•d other enterprise-,," and it i: described as .. fhc l\leatworks Act o: 1915." I svoke at CO!lf'' ·_l. raolo Jv1gth 011 the desii·ablel!Cd of introducing a n1casure oi this sort, and I have to -.upport the rclnJ.d;:s 1 rna de on that O< .asian. .:'\ow that I haYe seen the Bill l have come to trw conclusion that it is one of the most far-reaching, embracing, and drastic nwasu1·cs that have ever been brought before any Parliament in Australia. During the last session of the last Parliament we passed "' measure described as ''The Meat ~upply ior Imperial Ucos Act." That legislatwn gaye ·authority to the po-we~s ,for tho tn~e being to control the ~,rhole 0.1 tuc stock sui~­aL~c fDl' export in QU.fle!fsland, whether 1t b8 on tho hoof or in freezing charnber, or in anv oth.·r condition. To my mind, if the GOvcrnn1-ent {tfC sincere in this leglslation, ali that thev \vould nc;ed to do would be to ao,!phfy the 'Act which I have mentioned, and increa-se tho povYerB if thcA::;.t: po"\vers are wanting to meet any p_ro bable eases th~t rni (.rht come. under then~ notice, and rn iiCC~rdance with the experience they have o·ained since the Act came into operation. ln-teacl of that, we are aske·d to sanction the principle of a;-Jpointing a person who is to. be t;dlc>d a controller. V\·hat are Ius quahhca­tions to bo '? You are told that he is to be a. person who will be acc-epted under the Au-die Act. \Vhat doe-s that nw:m? Any per-·oon who is an auditor oon be appointed­a p:;_rd -an, a, pol.itieal ap11oi~tec of al?-Y k1~u1, irres·Jective of the huge busmeE> he IS gomg t0 c.:,ntroi. H" is going to Le put in the po,ition of tbo High Serang of the Meat Industr'' ot Quoenslancl, a m-en probaLly c".ithout" busille~-· knowledge. and we will have to foot the Bill of his misdoings, ,-, hether wilful or otherwise.

At 10.27 p.m., The CHAIRMAN OF CoMMITTEES relieved the

Speaker in tho chair.

Mr. VOWLES : Thoro is nothing in the plopo,.od measure to tell us that it will last onlv tiil the end of the war, or sorno reason­able time afterwards. You will remember that when we were disc-ussing the :Meat Supply for ln1pcrial Fees Bill we decided that it ,hould remain in operation till by proclamation _it wa3 abolished. No\v, here is a sudden vern of pntriotism come over the Government. I 1\Nd·d have liked to see th >t vein of patriotism ;110wn to us in a direct way during the recruiting week. I would have liked to ''eo men who were supposed to be cuo',;,O"ed in irnportant but.ine~:n~ in Brisbane out' 1:'e;-.ruiting Jikz' the rest of us. No, they were back fo:.·ccaRting lcgi~lation.

JYir. STOPFORD : Were you the only one?

1vlr. BERTRACii : 'vVhat about the Secretary f<Jl· Railv:ap and the Secretary for Public Instruction?

Hon. J. TOLMIE: They did not go out. ::-.'lr. BERTRn! : Y cs, they -did.

Mr. VOWLES: I woul·d like to have seen thn SLnel-My for Public Instruction, who said he was gcing out on the campaign, and

1l!I eatworks Bill. [16 SEPTEMBER.] 1vleatworks Bill. 787

then apologi~ed and said ho 1vas not O'oing. This in1portant n1oven1ent vvas foreshadowed be another member who this afternoon spoke patriotically about butter. Now we have f,omething patriotic about meat, but is there not something significant in tho fact that this legislation is introduced immediatelv after the Pr,-mier ''as -asked, or ruther no£ a";ked, but >\'Oil! at the foned invitation of the meat ·workers. to hi:; ov:n Parlian1cnt, the Trades HaiL Ho gorq do;m t~er<O and promises cer~an1 th1ngs. lie 1-'3 go1ng-or so hD gives the:n to understa:"d, although he is throwin()' dust in thci~ eyes-he is going to introduc~ legislation \ hich is going to create emploY­ment. And v hat do we get? We get tliis

Bill. The Government could [10.30 p.m.] have got all they want, if they

are smcerc, by amending the Act passed last year, but, instead of doing that, they have introduc-e-d the "'reate't pic·CD o£ focialistic legishhon that h'::ts ever been introdnced in the English-speaking ·world.

GoVER)(~IENT JliiE~rBERS: Hear. hear!

Mr. VOvVLES :The rank and file admit that, and yet the Government tell us that ~he. measure is only temporary and that it IS m~rorluced for patriotic purposes. The fact Is that they want to carry -ant a part of their platform and some of the pledges they gave at the last election. It is the same old story; ~·e have had it told about every piece of legis! a t10n bronght before this Par­liament. But this time there is a gilded clot~ ?Ver It, an_d that. gilded cloth is patriOtism. I say m all smcerity that I do not for one moment believe that this measure is brought forward purely as a temporary expedient. It is brought forward nnder the pretence of being suclr, but with the inten­tion of keeping it on the statute-book. If the measnre is only a temporary expedient, why d?e~ n< t tJ,re Bill say so? Why does not the Mmiste,: d1spel_ the bona fide donbts we have on that point? The fact is that the Government are trying to mislead the House by saymg that the measure is introduced for pa~riotic purposes, for the purpose of P,rotectmc; the Roor _unfortunate Imperial Government, wh;ch IS protected already. Fancy legislation which gives the Govern­n,:tent powe:r: to control conduct, extend, con­tmue. restnct, varv, ur discontinue the busi­ne"s and operations of meatworks ! Fancy the autocratic position which will be taken up by the controller with the Ministry behind !>im ! Fancy such huge institutions and the mtercsb connected with them being taken away from the owners and placed in the h.ands of any body of persons without the nght of appeal ! F":ncy any Ministry who acknowledge by their platform and their condnct that they arc strongly opposed to th~ class of people for w?C!m they are legis­latmg takmg up the positiOn that they will b_e {he sole judges in the matter, withont any rig-nt of appeal, and that they are to decide what shall be done nnder certain conditions! All they have to do is to say that any one ?f these in~tit.utions is not being carried on ;n the public mterest, and then, by the sign­mg; of a document, the whole business is automatically confiscated to the Government, except that the Government have to pay the value of the improvements and the land. I do not know what the actual value of a meat­,,·orks business would be, but we have bee~ giyon to nnder•,Jand that the value of plant and improvements of one works is something like £500,000. That value <loes not include

the stock. which are part and parcel of the business, nor existing contracts for the pur­chase of stock. Fancy an establishment that coc:t that amount of money being placed in jeopardy hy the action of the Government! That money has already been expended in establishin;,· the business.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS: It is not in jeopardy now. The Empire is in jeopardy.

Mr. VO\YLES: We know that, and if the Minister can show any justification for inter­fering with the meatworks in the way pro­posed, if he can show that any meatworks which has closed down has done so out of cussednr9s or for any other reason than that they cannot get killable stock, then we should be prepared to snpport him in his attitude. But the Minister for Education snggested­in fact, he more than suggested-that there are fat stock in Queensland. I sincerely hope there are fat stock in some places, but you eannot hold fat stock for ever. You can only keep them till they reach a certain stage; then you must get rid of them. There are no stock at all in my district, let alone fat stock. At one shearing going on to-day below St. George they are getting beef from Brisbane to feed the shearers. I saw the most miserable lot of stock -I ever saw coiiPcted at the Enoggem saJeyards :n:sterday, and, in the fact of what I saw there, you cannot tell me that people have got fat stock and are holding them. If they haYe fat stock and are holding them, they are nothin51: less than lunatics. You cannot see fat stock in my district.

Mr. H. L. HARTLEY: How did they get them in the yards?

Mr. VOWLES : Do you call them fat stock? A beast weigbing about 700 lb. brought £14 17~. 6d. Under such conditions is anyone going to hold on to fat stock? '

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LANDS : You arc too absurd.

Mr. VOWLES: No, I am not at all absurd. I know a little. bit about this matter, probably a great deal more than the hon. gentleman knows.

Tho SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : There W<'l'e a lot of store stock there for sale but not for killing. '

Mr. VOWLES: The butchers were buying them and putting them on country simply to keep their businesses going. I{ a respon­sible person like the Minister for Education c.1.n tell ns that there are fat stock in Queens­land, either he has a personal knowledge which •ve do not possess, or he is in posses­sion of. ';" retnrn t)Iat we have been asking the Mu11ster to give us, and that he will not give to the House. I cannot see any justifk 1tion for wanting to extend the opera­tion of this me;~ sure to the other industries mentioned. Under the Act I have referred to, the Government have power to extend its operation to those other industries, but the Government are going further than that and are tackling everything that can b~ produced or exported, from tobacco to con­densed milk, wheat. flour, and almost anv­thing at all. Do the Government want to have the right of control over those things for patriotic pnrposes?

Mr. H. L. HARTLEY: Yes, to stop profit­mongermg.

Mr. VOWLES: This measure will enable the party in power to take advantage of the

Mr. Vowles.]

788 [ASSEMBLY.] JJII eatworks Bill.

misfortunes of people who have started en­terprises and kept this great State going for the last twenty years. \V o all know very well that Queensland has been depending on the pastoral industry, not only from a pro­ducer's point of view, but we know also that the labourers of Queoneland have been de­pending on it for what they have got out of it. \Ve know the amount of money that has bePn circulated amongst the shearers, and those engaged in the carrying trade, in droving, and in handling the stock.

Han. J. HrxHA1I: It all adds to the wealth of the community.

11r. VO\VLES: No\v, w·hcn things are bu.d and thev are suffering worse. perhaps, than they suffered during the drought-· -

Mr. H. L. HARTLEY : They pa" it on to the worker.

Mr. VOWLES: How can they pass it on to the >Vorker? He is protected by his award, and he will be further protected by tho legislation to be introduced later on. The only man who is not protected is the producer. \\'hen he comes into his own and prices are good. and he is reaping hi~ harvest, you treat him in the same way as you tredted the butter manufacturers »nd in the same way that you treated the ~vheat producers.

The SECRETARY FOR Pt:BLIC LANDS : Did you say he \Va,.., reaping a harYest?

Mr. VOWLES: He had a little bit of a harvest for a w bile, but it is over.

The SEC'REV.RY FOR PUBLIC LA!'iDS: You coc>tradict yourself.

Mr. VU\VLES: You know it as well as any n1en1ber, bec"a.U3c vou know the condi~ tions in the West. I do not think there is any man who knows the conditions in the \Vest better than you, and I wish you would educaiL some of your friends behind you and let them know how you will do incalculable harm to the people of Queensland.

The DEPL:TY SPEAKER : Order ! The hon. member must addros,, the Chair. He must not address his remarks to any member personally.

:'vir. VOWLES: If the Minister for Lands was fired out of the Cabinet a,nd out of the Labour party. for supporting the producer he ;•;o_uld rehre _hm;ourably, but ot present he 1s 1n a mo,st n1v1dious position.

Hon. J. tripe.

FIHELLY: Talk meat, not

M;-. YO\YLES: I heard the han. member talbng tripe and throwing mud. too. The co':'fioo~t,.ry principles in this Bill do not ~x10t m any other placC'. \V e should not mtroduco novel legi,lation under any condi­~iGns. \VP should be vcr.r guardud about rt. Apart f~om th(• In;pcrial p;,rt of it, we should cons:dor tho J copardy of the in­dustry--consrdor the prosperity of the future of Quecn<land, and those industries. \Vhy hamper them and cripple them? \Vhy de­prccrate the value of the meatworks? The Government ha,, got the right to come in and control a trade where huge losses can b•J ma.de and where huge profits can be made ''.' a sl;ort time if uninterfered with, a-nd whrch will make a great difference on

[Mr. Vowles.

the vear's transactions. A controller who lmo"~s nothing about the business can take charge when all the assets have to foot the bill in priority to all the exi,ting mort­gages which are registered. In doing that vou are deprf ciating the market value of that security from a, lending point of view, as you are kiiling all their borrowing power:;.

At 10.45 p.m., The SPEAKER resumed the chair.

Mr. VOWLES: We know that these big concerns have got to work on big over­drafts, because they are handling thousands of pounds in the course of a few months. 'They will not have the borrowing power, and if tho opportunity is lost by this socialis­tic legisla-tion you will only be doing harm to t,hat industry, to Queensland, and to the workers, because you cripple the enterprise and you kill for party purposes the goose that lays the golden eggs, namely, the capital which finds the money for the creation of employment. If you are going to do that, you ought to do it with your eyes open. If your intPntion i·' a• you say, to do it from a purely patriotic point of view, why not put that in the Bill and 8ay that the Bill shall onlv re·nain in force for the duration of the war? Do not mislead the public. The Ron. the Treasurer said that in Central Queensland tho capitali,ts had been misled, and he told them not to fear. If it was only for the duration of the war, why not say so in the Bill? The Government should proYide for a proclamation to be issued limiting it to the Jl'·riod of the war. If they did that he would support that principle, although he opposed the Bill because of other principles in it. If the bu~iness of a compan;v or institution was Dot being carried on in the public interest, the Government could turn round and confi9cate it and there was no appE'al. Under the Land Act, and und<'r all matters connected with the Public \Vorks Land Rc"llmption Act, one of the first things that mu,f, be decided was whether it wa.s in the public interest. That privilege was not given in this Bill. The parties did not have the privilege of appealing to the judge to say if i! was in the public interest. What was the basis of valuation under the 1910 Land Act? It was simply the value of the property to the incoming ·purchaser. In this case there was no payment for floating the co'Tlpany and for advertising and for good­will. There was a big goodwill in these concerns.

The SrCRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: The valuation is made by the Land Court. It is not made under the Land Act. You 11re talking a lot of nonsense.

:'vir. VOWLES: I was showing what would happen under ordinary circumstances. I am not talking nonsense. I am talkin~ the truth, and if yon were honest vou ~vould fo !low what I say. If t.ho Minister rloes not foliow it, I z'~~n onlv come to one conclusion and I think the public will come to the sam~ conclusion.

Han. ~· A. FIHELLY: Don't question your own sanrty.

l\1r. VOWLES: You have been to Goodna yo_urself, and they let you out.

Hon. J. A. FIHELLY: If you. go there you will stay there.

JJ![ eatworks Bill. [16 SEPTE!VIBER.] 1}Jeatworks Bill. 789

Mr. VOWLES: I would not go there to rig up a ca<o:e ogaimt the Government like you did.

Han. J. A. FI!IELLY: That is an absolute lie.

The SPEAKER : Order !.

Mr. VO\YLES: I ask that that expression bP withdrawn.

The SPEAKER: Order! I ask the Ministm· to withdraw that expres:;ion.

HoN .• J. A. FIHELLY: The forms of the House necessitate a \vithdra1.val, :ctnd I with­draw, although what I have stated is true.

'Hr. YOWLES: I ask for a withdrawal without any qualification.

'rhe SPEAKER: The han. member has withdrawn thE' unparliamentary e:l<pression he made use of. ·

::llr. VOWLES: \Ye will not deal with the Goodna btHiness now. It was only because !he ·Minister, in his usual dignified way, InterJected, that I gaY{' hini 1vhat he \YaB

lookin~ for, and no\v, of course, he is nastY. I .w!ll ju"t _eay, in ,conclll''ion, that I hope :\1mbters wrll do wnat I haye suggested to relieve the public and tho'e intGrcded in thpso ventures of any doubts they may have. The hon. gentleman in charge of the Bill or the Treasurer certainly made use Df exnressions which indicated that the•c would clo some­thing to relieve the public mind and if that is done, it will do a tr-emendo~s am~unt of good.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTcRE : Whv don't you help to relieve the public, instead of talking tripe like this ?

Mr. VO\YLES : When I sat opposite. on many cccasrons I liste·ned to the hon gentle­man, but I never listened to anv logic from him. I only ask him now to carry out the pron1ise tha,t was made from the ... Treasury bench, and pi-ece the Bill on the ,tatute-book in L'uch a form that we will a1l know what we are doing.

Mr. SWAYNE: This is one of the most unwise and injurious pic·ces of legislation that has ever been pro,entcd to the Queens­land Parliament. vVe Wocre told juFt now of tho" no0d _for enhrprise, and how, directly the war rs over, v.·e hope to have people starting new industries. I might ouote the words of the Secretary for Lands' on that point. According to one of the Brisbane papers, the hon. gentleman said-

" He had last year advocated that there "as every opportunity now for Au,tralia to engage in the manufacture of many of her primary products. The opportunih was never better than now but he supposed the principal difficult~ was in getting the necessary machinery. The policy of the Government, however, y:aq to. dc;:e!op and increase all primary mdustrres 111 the StaiA> first. That policv Wab of opening up the land for agricul­ture and mining, and the stimulus these industries would receive from the Go­vernment would only be limited by the financial position, and, of course, the s.easons.''

I find that Mr. Hughes has also spoken in

the sarne strain. But in vimY of legislation of this kind, is it likely that pcvplo are going to put their n1oncy into AustraEan enterprisP" ? In the Bill there is an assump­tion on the part o£ hon. memhers on the other side that l\Iinistus rrre not going to do anything wrong or rash. But hov•l long arc they sure that the'y are going to r._·main in po\n~r? Th·Iinisters disdaii~l all socia1i tic in­tE'ntions in connection \vith this n1easure, but hon. nwmbers sitting behind them say, "Yes, this is cocialism." If Ministers do not hold thP ;;?t,me opinir,ns as their follo\vers, hov,· long· u·e the bttc r likelv to retain thnm in th(- tr prp .ent position? ~Business rnen "\vill not ]:,ten to protcstatiDm of th.'t kind. They will go to thG Act itself, and they will sc•e that the Governor in Council-that is, the ].1inistcrs for the time· being-arc the sole arbitrato,·s, and that payment is to be mad,, in Government stock. I am not going to express any opinion upon the value of that stock, but. cupposing that it will boar in­krcqt at tlJP rate of 5 per C'mt., it is pos­sible that the owners of the works, bv their enterprise, ability, and energy, may be able t" m,tlw a profit of 10 per cent. In that cace they will be deprived of one-half of their pri'fitc.. If wo had any quantity of fat chck in the· country, and tho owners of the meat­wod:., refused to treat that stock. there might be "·orne ju3ti:fication for Governn1ent inter­fcr.cncc, but I suppose there is a greater dc-arth of fat stock in Queensland at the· prc·,ent time than ever before in the history of the State. Tho passing of this Bill is not going to make another fat beast for the works to operate on. S0me'one has said that there are numbers of fat stock in the Gulf country. Now, if that is so, and that stock could be brought to the works, it would be tr' atC'd there. Does any hon. member mean to tell me that the works would neglect the opportunity to make a profit if they could get the stock? I hope there are soma more fat stock available, because we want some for loe:1.l con:-:.un1ption.

Mr. H. L. HARTLEY: Don't vou know there were· fat sheep when vou we're out on that trip to Longreach? •

Mr. S\VAYI\'E: A few were coming in, but a good many of them were a long way off being fat.

Mr. H. L. HARTLEY: They were sending 2,000 when you were there.

Mr. S\YAYNE: We saw a few trainloads of fat stock, but, judging by the appearance of the country, there could not be any more to come, and when the present small supply is exhausted, it will be a long time bc,fore there are any more. \V o' are laughed at when we talk of capitalists shunning Australian investments, but just before the war started I got some figures from a reliable source showing that, during the three years ending 1914. £136,000,000 of British capital went to Canada, and during the same period only £,51,000,000 came to Australia.

The SEl'RETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS: How do you account for iha~?

Mr. SWAYNE: I account for it by the legislation that has been passed here.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : By your own Government.

Mr. SWAYNE: I am speaking of the whole of Australia, ·and during nearly the whole of that period there was a Labour

Mr. Swayne.]

790 1Vl eatworks Bill. [AS SEMEL Y.] M eatworks Bill.

Government in power in the Commonwealth. In fact, LaboUl' has pretty well

[11 p.m.] dominated the Commonwealth from· its inception. Labour has

also been in power in most of the other States. I dare say that, if we could separate Queensland from the rest of the States, the showing would be better, because until re­cently we have had sane government in this Slate. I d0 not think anyone can h0nestly sav that it is because of anv natural dis­advantages that so much more 'British money went to Canada than came to Australia. There must be some other reason for it, and that i. : uch lee;islation as this. What we haYe to look to- to get the reccson for the Bill is the platform Df the party be­hind the GoYernment. Thev are disclaiming any de,ire to abmc the powers which they ask us to giYe. They say that thjs is war legislation, but there is no indication that it is to terminate at the end of the war. I haYe here a publication from the "'VDrker" office, entitlecl "'Yhat the Labour Platfmm Means," which bears out what I say, that this is a step towar-ds socialism, and is going to be allowed to remain as such. The ex­tract I ha ye here says-

" But we are wdl aware, at the same time, that though socialism is thus m­evitable, and cannot be prevented, its accomplishment can be quickened Dr re­tarded by our actions.

" That is whv the Labour movement sh0ulu be class:cDnscious-that we may, by Dllr deliberate effort and our cal­culated enthusiasm, accelerate the prD­ce's of transition from private ownership for private profit to common ownership for the common g0od.

" The process wrll be a gradual one, but it need nDt be a slow one. It will proceed step by step, but the steps may follow quickly upon one another, if so we are minded."

Yet the Treasurer has the effrontery-if I may use the word-to get up .and call mem­bers on this side to task because they foresee the consequences of this legislation. Here in this publication, hDn. members opposite officially declare their intention, and can tbey blame us for being suspiQiDus of them? The outlook in connection with such legisla­tion would not be nearly so bad if it was passed by a party who said that they were not socialists, and that they had no inten­tion of making this a stepping-stone to col­lective ownership of everything.

Mr. H. L. HARTLEY: Don't yDu know we stood on the SDcialistic platform?

Mr. SWAYNE: Then why don't your leaders honestly stand by it? Your leaders are telling us that there is no intention to use these powers, and yet all the ·rank and file behind them say that it is their inten­tion to do so. It has been stated that this Bill is on all-fours with the Sugar Acquisi­tion Bill, but while the Sugar AcquisitiDn Bill gave authority to acquire comm0dities, it said nothing about the factories or places where those commodities were turned out. In the pastoral indust'ry, in connection with the rearing of cattlo we are arriving at a time when a new order of things will be necessary-! am now speaking from the graziers' point of view-and we will have to go in for artificial grasses in connection with our stockraising. With this Bill in operation. and the meatworks the prDperty of the State, there will only be the one

[Mr. Swayne.

buyer. 'I'hose who go to the expense of rear­ing stock will have only that Dne buyer, which will be dominated by organisations representing the consumers SDI0ly. 'Ve know how the consumer has recentlv been treated in regard to his products. Enterprise and expansion will be checked. If it had been pointed out that this legislation would bring the mc:,tworks into Dperation at the present time-that the· stock would be Dperated on if the State took over the control of the meatworks-there would be mme reason for this legislation; but any action is entirely u.eeless at the present time. In the face of the recent deputations t0 the Government and the pn<:sure being brought upon them, thev cannot wonder if we connect this leg~slation with the pressure which has been brought upon them by organisations which have shown that they have no sympathy with the pr0ducer.

1\lr. BRIDGES (Nundah): I move that the debate be now adjourned.

Question-That the debate be now ad­journed-put; and the House divided :-

~Ir. Appel , _Armstrong

Barnes " Book'-'r

Brid.c.:-e-s

AYES, 9.

3Ir. Jioorc (,:,vaYne

:: Tolillic ., \'o·> It's

Tell erR: ::Ur. Moore and ::Ur. f1wayne.

l\oE>>, 28.

J.lr. Barber }fr. Larrombe Bertram Lrnnon Carter Uoyd Collins ~IcLaehlan Dnn-~tan ~J c}!inn Fihelly McPhail Folev O'~ullivan FrcP~ Pf'trn:on Hardacre Pollock

., Hartlry, H. L. Smith , HartlPy, \V , Ptopford

Hunter ThrorlorP Huxham IYP!lin··ton Land :: Winsta-;,lcy Telle.rg: Mr. Bertram and }fr. Rmith.

PAIRS,

.AyPs---Mr. :J1acartnry, Mr. f'otnerset, 11r. Bell, :Mr. Ba;dry, ::\fr. Hodw"', Jl.fr. Stevens, and Mr. Behhington. ~oes-:Mr. Bowman, Mr. Payne, Mr. Adamson,

Mr. r_r • .T. Ryan, MY.• Gledson, Mr. Gilday, and Mr. Gilliea.

Resolved in the negative.

Mr. BARNES: I think there are very good reasons w~y this Bill should be. further ventilated. It rs all very well to listen to the very able speeches delivered by hon. members opposite, particularly those of tl)e Treasurer and the Secretary for Public Lands but we have to remember that in other 'days speeches were gi ''en in regard to matters similar to those now before the Chamber. Indeed, as the evening wears on we begin to r~alise ~hat, after all, _the measure is a gun whrch has been farrly heavilv loaded. That is the declaration of some 'hon. members opposite. But, going back to the speech delivered by the '!'rea­surer, which was given in very fine taste, but remembering as we do that hon. mem­ber's expressions regarding speeches made by him in other days, we can only judge him by the expressions that were then made. I can assure you that the public outside are

Meatworks Bill. [16 SEPTEMBER.) Meatworks Bill. 791

not only summing up the conditions which may obtain in tho light of this Bill, they are not only fearful on that account, but their fears are added to by the speeches which havC' b0en made right throughout the land and in this House from time to time.

Hon. J. A. FIHELLY: "What about the Bill?

Mr. BARNES: The Bill is certainly a most dra:tic one, and it is quite in keeping with all the n>eQsureo which have been intro­dn(;ed in this House. It is not customary to refer to tho various clauses, but one might be p•crmitt~d to sa:-· that clause 4 about caps everythmg.

Hon .• J. A. FIHELLY: Is it worse than State in,, urn nee?

J\Ir. BARNES: It is on an equality, so far e.s its effect gou, with State insurance. It is aiming to monopolise the meat indust1:y. The Bill gives power which may warrant a certain amount of expenditure, and, indeed, there is no end to the expenditure that might be inrurred. An expenditure might be in­cm·red in the vusdom of the controller, and that charg-e become•: a prior charge upon the works. \Ve can realise at once therefore that a Bill of this kind is going to discount very largely the assets of any works the Government rnay have in their minds to seize. The danger the country is to be put in at the hand- of JHinisters in that con­nection alone is an exceedingly serious one, bcc.nuo nearl_v every company has to fall back on monetary institutions, and if mone­tary institutions find that their assets are going to be discounted by means of this Bill, it v:ill haye Yery far-reaching- effects. \Ve are going to have our trade affected by the introduction of measures of this kind whi0h strike at the confidence of the outsid~ world. At the present time we are in straits for money. The 'l'rPasurer has told us and rncmberd opposite have told us on several occ.nions that if certain moneys had been rccct•pted long ago we would have been in a very much better position. The Premier is dmYn in J\1olbourne now very largely in con­!lc0tion with money matters, and yet we are introdueing a measure which is going to have the effect of stiffening the public in regard to advances.

The SECRETARY FOR Pt:BLTC INSTRUCTION: Your speech will help in that direction.

Mr. DARNES: My speech will help in that direcfion, I am sorry to say and unfortunately. the Bill speaks very' much louder. Members opposite will not be judged by their speeches to-night on this Bill; thev will be judged bv their speeches and actions in other davs. ·I have before me " Han­sard " of 1914, pag-e 194, where the Trea­su;·er, in dealing with the matter of trusts, sad-

" The Premier, when speaking the other night, particularly in reply to an interjection, said he welcomed the meat trust to Queensland. \Vhen speaking in c,thcr parts of Queensland he has wel­comed the meat trust on sundry occa­sions. Now he modifies that statement. It is not the meat trust he welcomes; it is Swift, A1·mour, and Morrison he wel­comes-the huge National Packing Com­pany of America-a hundred million dollar concern that has exploited America for years; which has caused much ruin to ranches and business people in some of the \V estern States of America; which

has caused devastation and ruin in the Argentine; and which is making des­perate attempts to control the beef trade in Australia to-dav. Prominent business people of Australia have called attention to the danger of the beef trust and its operations in Queensland.

" JYir. Morgtm: There is a commission taking evidence now.

" J\1r. THEODORE: The commJsJson ap­peara to hwe been appointed by the hon. member's friend, Joe Cook, for the pur­pose of whitewashing the beef trust.

" J\ir. Morgan : Why not give evi­dence?

"Mr. THEODC,RE: I am g1vmg evi­dence now, and if the han. member keeps his e:trs op0n he will be able to hear the "vidence. There seems to be no necessity for a commission to inquire as to the existence of the trust. It is admitted even by the trust pcvple themselves, and Mr. Otto Malkow, the representative of the National Packing Company of Chicago-for _ypars a manager for that compan~· in Chicago-is here managing the meatworks in Brisbane, and he speaks in no uncertain terms of their power and the wealth behind them, and wha.t they will do when they get going?

"Thir. Morgan: They have done no injury at all.

" Mr. THEODORE: They have caused the absolute ruin in the one State of Iowa of forty banks. Fortv banks went sma'h as a result of the ope1·ations of the beef trust in one 'year. They ruined hundreds of ranchers connected with the beef industry, and they say there were many suicides because of insolvency, ruin, and wrecks in the one State I have mentioned, caused by the operations of the beef trust. It appears at present they have not absolute control of the mE'ltt trade in the Argentine, but they have control of a very large portion of it, and i L is feared by all sections that the beef trust will get absolute control of the trade in that country. If they are welcomed here by public men and allowed to go unchecked for a year or two, there is no power in Australia that will stamp them out without a very great sacrifice by the people-without the ex­penditure of millions of money."

And so one could"-go on dealing with the speech delivered by the hon. member. That is how the hon. member felt then. Respon­sibility and the needs of the hour may have made him feel somewhat different. Since then we have had legislation introduced and passed, and there has been no effort t{) repeal any of it, and one clause of that legislation alone would give Ministers all the power that they desire, or should deo,ire, to carry on their supposed purpose. But the fact is th11t since then there has been a clamour for something t{) be done, and, in response to that clamour. we have this Bill. The Premier was summoned to appear before th<> Trades Hall, and almost simultaneously-or a day or two afterwards-we have the intro­duction of this Bill. One can only read be­tween the lines. The Bill is going a great deal too far. and any man occupying a posi­tion on this side of the House who realises the seriousness of the legislation and does not open his mouth and condemn right and left th.e unwisdom of the Government and

Mr. Barnes.]

792 MertworkB Bill, [ASSEMBLY.] 1\lleatworkB Bill.

hon. · inc>mbers opposite, fails to realise the position that he occupies; and it is on that score that I raise my voice to-night, because I feel that we are doing a dangerous thing, a bad thing for this country. It is not going to help u · or the people whom han. members glory in serving, because labour will find le•-s employment; and all because of the injudiciom and mischievous legislation which members on the other side c.re intro­ducing.

Mr. ARMSTROKG: At this late hour I do not prvpose to occupy n1uch ti1ne, but as the kader of the House is disinclined to allo\· an adjom·nment, I must say a few words on this ;nc ~t~ure. Tht.: r.rroa,;·urer ,,~as perfectly correct when he stated the position of the country before the introduction of the Meat Supply ·:or Imperial Uses Bill last year. But it must be admitted that the Bill, as it 'vas. pa.~~cd tb ··n, gave a.mple po\ver to control stock on the hoof and t'·c whole of the meat oupply in Queensland; and, so far as that is concerned, members on this side of the House will give him any help that h~ chooses for a 1Similar pUi'!JO'oe at the prC'9ent mo:nont, as long as it is for Imperial purpose,. There is no reason why we should not. But what we ohjcct i.o-and object to thoroughly -is that in a measure of this kind a prin­ciple is incorpoeated to control all industries. \\hen the :MiniEtcr for Lands was speaking I asked him if he would indicate what in­dustries "auld be controlled, but he gave me no E<ttisfaction.

The SEUR!lTARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : I could not. I was not i!' a position to do so.

Mr. ARMSTRONG : I will go so far as to say that it is a difficult thing. I admit that all s.orts of things might happen later on. But if it is necessary that he should introduce this measure for the purpose of safeguarding Imperial interests in regard to the feeding of the Imperial and our own troops, why could he not give us the satis­faction of admitting that he is only going to enforce it for that purpose, or properly enforce it, for the duration of the war or for, say. six or twelve months afterwa;ds? ·why hold this sword of Damocles over the head of !he community for all time? A gr-eat deal has been said about the establish­ment of meatworks. I have been connected with the pastotal industry prac·tically all my working years, and there are ca~es in v hich you have meatworks established for the purpose of increasing values in a distrjct;-which is what they are doing at Cambndge Gulf, ·western Australia, at the preseat moment. They do not look to get a direct profit from tho works thrmselvc ., hut they got a profit from the enhanced value of the stock w!1irh is put through the "r,-ks and g-oe' mto tho markets of the world. The same thing occurred here. I was connected with the first meatworks established on the Brisbane River. We did not look for a direct return, but we looked for the return in the increased value of the stock. Then came along the share­holder, who bought in the open market and he wanted dividends; and, so soon ~s he wanted dividends. then the pioneer wh<, e'tablished them had to dron ~ut and the man who wanted dividends -has got them. Then you have the meat companies, which have been, and are being, e'tablished for the purpose of exporting meat to all parts of the world, and I do not think that the 'I'reasurer was quite faiT. this evening when he said that the goodwill of these works would not

[ .ilf r. Barnes.

be attacked under this Bill. It can be at­tacked very largely. He mentioned that he had reu.;sured '' company which was about to establish a large mcatworks near Glad­stone, that he had recently reas ured them in regard to the provisions of the Bill to such an extent that thry were likely to continue tlw;r operatiom. I "·oulcllike to give the hon. member later information-very late infor­mation. indeed-and it is that tho whole of the orders for that machinery have bc•:n cancelled.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : ·what cornvany arc you referring to?

:\h. ',R~>ISTRO="G: .John Cook and Sons. I nwrelv men+'on the fact, as I have a right ~o ~~lenf:io'l it.

The SECBET.\RY FOR PuBLIC IN'' TRC"CTION : \Vhen you La vc han. members crying out "mad dog," what can you expect?

Mr. ARMSTRONG : Don't get " mad dog" yourself. I never make a statement unless I have pretty solid ground for doing so, and it is ab· olutely authentic.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Are you sure they ordered it?

Hon. J. Tor,;IIE: They sent a man to order it.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: To look at it, not to order it.

::\1r. ARl\ISTROXG: The position is as I have stated, and I think it should go -ide by side with tho statem<mt of the Trca­sur._r. So far as the meatworks are con­cerned, the position is that a gr<·at deal has been f.~id to the cffcDt tha.t tho managers put their heads together so as to oppress their mnployecs and clew down th0 work--. Thl•re are busine'-; men on the- other side who must under>: md the pooition-that if you h,,-o a large amount of mOJley en1ployed, and a large quantity of marhinery, it i-~ vt·ry rnuch n1ore expensive to close those works than to keep then1 going, oven at very high prices. 1\ia· C'hinery, e~peciully such hu~o quanhtiBs <13

there arc in those lar6·e nlcat­[11.30 p.1n.] works, cannot bo ,,.11owcd to pe

idle, and· mP.at,;v·orks cornpanlt:.:; are perfe -~tly \Yilling to lrc:'{!p going if they can get fat stnck. As to th~ stat•'ment of tho ~\lin:;;ter for EducatiGn that there are fat stock in Qm·c:nsland, everybody knows that in any drought there arc fat stock Fomr>'vhere, but you can:::Jot get thnn to market.. Has it Lot been the policy Jf the I-Iouse iv or<~n up cur hPge \Yc:;te·rn cou'ntry by· r.lilv;a~·r, :-·) that in Li1.10:-; of drought we shr:uld haYe n1eans to bring <aide from dis­td\-ts in \Vh;r;h they arC' thrivjng acro~3 the dry country to the coast? There is no doubt tl_~at b( :.ween Ha\·or;')1,; oml Junriion nnd the South there are fat cattle, but the trouble is that you cann0t get them in. The Secrc:arY for Public J.:.nds or the Secrctarv for ~\g,;icuiture should have g-ot the bcc.:t jnfcr:~l~~~ion a1. -:;ilablc a;;; to t!w r.ur::..b2r of ht stock we ha\"e in Qucen,!aud. ancl thlOir locafnn, and ~hould have gi' en th ct informa­tion t<J the House, so that we mig-ht know lnw th?.v think the nwatv,--Jrb can be kept going. As a mutt0r of fact, we have not had relief in any part cf the country. and under no rirc-umstancc:~ C'an '"''e get fat stcck in any quantity before tho early part of nRxt year. Tbe cuggc.,.tion of the hon. mE'mb··r for \Vide Bay that the Government shcul-:l. avail them~elyes of the sorvict.c;; of thoto rnen who, by tho very 111:>lure of th·~ir avocation, arc in posseesion of reliable information

JJeatworics Bili.

re,;pecting the stock aYailable, in mcer to ascertnin what fat stock there are in the StatP, is eminently reasonable.

The 8scRETARY FOR Pl•BLIC I~ANP~ : Do 0 C>U

suggc't that the stock insr'.ctou do not know?

Mr. ARMSTRONG: I my that, to ") c rgo ·extent, they do not kLow. I do Lot wish to run tho stof'k inspector_, ·down, be1 :._uso th;;re -nTe n1any r-;ood rnen arnong thPin, but I ,',LY that their time is so fully occupied that thry haYe not time to go over the country and ir, -, pc.~t stcck. I know that I ha, ve a c:. _t'tain ar~~L cf Loun"t;.; in rny elrctor.1te on \vhich I _ha' l' ney·_:or s:Cn a :-.tuck inspector.

THE SECRfTARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION: \Yell, ., stock impector does not know his business if he does not go over the country.

Mr. ~·~Rj,ISTROXG: If a man do<' not iHpect 1oto< k, how ean he say whether they arc fat 6r not'! The Secrc+ury for Public Instruction nu;v hav--..:: ono vieW as to what i: a fat beast ,;:nd I mav hold another view. .l"\ll I can say is that, as ... a rule, an inspector does net, and cannct, travel about :·uch di·jtrict as the one I havr; mentioned so as t > f., z:t a thorough knowledg-e of tho stock in that di:,trici.. In a J.i:,trict like that tl.ere ar·e possibly some 4,000 or 5,000 small stock­O'Wnors: and it is impossible for the inspector to know what rattle thos<> owners hold; but in the wider distticts of the \Vest, where tlw insped,or has to travel about, and is not at the beck and call of ev<Jrybody who re· quire-1 a pornTit to remoye stock, he may hav" that information. Hm, evn, I have spoken at greater length than I had in­-,cmled, and I shall conclude. I shall onh r.drJ that the pOWPI'S COnferred bv the sec­tion I have referred to are grenh'l: than any Govcrnm<'nt should a·k from Parliament, and ~hnt, per·0r"~l1y, h:fore emb._trldng :in any Indn tr~· that might be commandeered by the 0oy',':rnm0nt. I should Yery carefullv consider tLe po iti.cn. And I do not think tli:at human Eature in 1nv case is verv different fron1 human natur.: in the case of other people.

HoN. J. TOLMIE : I wish to suy a few words ou this measure bchrA the 'question is put from the Chair. I a.m sorry that we have been comnelled to continue the debate to-night. ~

The SivRETARY FOR PcBLIC L.\NDS : On the motion for leave to introduce the Bill you had pl"nty of scope.

HoN. J. TOLMIE: We only commenced the dt:ba.te at half-past 7 o'clock; and I do :wt thil<l<: that verr much courtesy has been extended to the members of the Opnosition iu connC'f'tion ·with this Bill. ..

The S• :"RETARY FOR l'eBLIC LA 'IDS : Y o1x need not have discussed it at all to-night· you coui d have deferred your speeches til'! npx~ week, if you wanted to do so.

Hox. J. TQLj,iiE: We asked for an ad­j ourument of the debate at the usual time, and the G overnn1ent refused our rPquest. :Now we ar<! pr"pared to sit here just as long ns han. g('ntlemcn opposite. The Govern­nlent an' introdueing mea,.ures which h":tve tt tendnncy tn destrov tho confidence Jf those '' ho arc ,\-or king the industries of the S+ate, dld thc•n they get up and chastise the Oppo-~tjon for daring to criticise them. .Are we

gciug to Fit still and see hon. n1embers intro­dure logi b.tion that is going to bo of very erious moment to the State, and that is

.I'I eazwor·!cs Bill. 79:3

lik:"ly to de,.troy public r·Jnfidenee? Are we going to sit st~l~ all~l see _lcgi;;ln,t;ou :intro­duced which w1l1 brrng ru1n upon ~' hn::·e nl1mbor of our citiz(~n3 '? \Ye ~hould be re­f'l:e :,.nt to our trust if \Ve did that. \Y c b:.,.Yo lis(,er~·'d to b:vo sp~~eC'hes on this <1J., a·~.nre fron1 gentlen1cn on ; \1is ~i.de of ~he Hm~.:J81 ':,.I:o are thoroughly acqmHntNl w1th the . ~clC<Uohy whic-h \Yill b8 aToctc-d-o_w fron1 Y:.le bon. JH'-'rnbel~ for v~-.-ide Ba:':, ,.'lHl the oth ~r :ronl the hon. n101nbr~r for Lockyer. 'fh,·n~ are no two g.:ntl0men in the Hou.se who .are so competent to pc 1k upon this qu0,t101: as those hen. rnemlv~rs, and the_ .. ,: haY(' v a;_·ned hon. m,:!nbers opr)Q'Site of tl-'8 dang<?r.:3 that are likel v to n.ri:<-:~ from this legislation. The bDC;ch Clt:li'>-ered bv the h .n. n1<~r.:bcr for \~.- ld:: Bav \vas moSt intt rt?sting. 'Tho bon. n1e2nbcr {liarshallcd his f~.cts in such a way as to illumine the whole subject.

Mr. CARTER: \Vhv do you laugh when you say that 9 -

EoN . .T. TOL~,IIE: I cbjcd to that inter­jection, bcc~usc it. is ab.:;ohttely fabe .

J\:Ir. CARTER: You \\ere smiling.

HoN. J. TOLMIE: I always emile. and ·whv thould nut one ~mile? I :Y1V that the hon. meTJ:lber for \Vide Bay mar:,hailcd his flech in stwh a ·":ay as to show tlh1t he under­stands the whole subject. He pomted out the great dttnger that exi2ts at the ]!rc:se:r;-t

·time by hl!_rrassing the men engaged 1~ t.hrs partiC'ular industry. lion. gent'?rnPn srttlng on the front Treasury benches haYe been try· ing to ob:3cnrc the r~osltion so Lsi~ aB the introdu~,tion of this rne>a··:~ure is concerned. They haYe ample power under the lcgisla­t'on which was pa>sed last year to deal With the:::e n1·1tter:s. The people eY,gta~ed in this indn"'trv haye dono nothing to arrant the inb·odu"ction of legislation of this kind. \Yo lniOIV there V>'Pre }HOnliscs made that there vrould be a proceBsion 1htough the :-treets of Brisbane of men i'ncmplow.i in this indu.--try. Th...-, Pren1ic-r Jnet these n1~en, TI'~"~ jn his offif'co, but at the Trades Hall; and he i' re:)orted iu an organ whic·h is fricmdl,:.' to the part:v oppo~ite to have said that he was unaware of the fads alleged by the deputation, but he ·would make inquiriP\.. lle said he w.as going to havn a Cabinet meeting held next day, when the whole position 11 ould be considered. Follo\\·ing upon his interview. with these men -who rightly aslwd for employment-and following on tho Cahine'i meeting held nrxt ·day, the Premier came down to the IJou,e '' ith this legislation. This is legiJlation \"c' hiC'h is nothing 1nore nor leBs than of a con­fiscatorY nature. 'Tho denunciation of the situatio-n b·,- the hon. mcmbe" for \Vide £.ay brought the Trenqurer to his fee-f, and he told us how sympathetie the Government were to the industries of the State, and how dcs;rous they were o£ doine; the fair thing between man and man. \V,: have h<1d in­stanros ::dread:;- this session '"here I(\1jslation has been forJed through at the command of hon. gentlemen on the other side, and it will eBriously affr,ct a large number of business men and working people in this Stnt<e. Fol­lowing on that, and other leg·islation, we have had the le ~der of the House coming du··cn and telling us not to be alarmed. \Vith tho aid of thiG Bill. the Government may step in and take any or all of the meat­u,-orks in the State. They have the power to hvpothecato all the moot>mrks to find the capital to carry on those works, ~tnu mali:e that capital the first charge against the meat-

Han. J. Tolmie.l

794 2\1eatworks Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] MeatworkR Bill.

works. The owners have no possibility of any reparation whatever. All thpc,e persons mav be ruined bv the Government. Such loo;;shtion )ws not bcf'n askPd for in anv Legishtivo Chamber in Austr<Llia. Thor·, l1as hu'n no nf'CeR.:;;itv to do s0 so fq_r a,, Qnp,··nsland is C'oncern~d.

"\(,-, (',IRTETI: vVe ha\'<' che courage to put our plat~ortn into operation.

I1ox. J. TOL::VIIE: The hon. gentleman is a \' ry fc.olish man to do thing<> which will be die t•.trous to himself. If tho ·disaster on!·.· nfl'{':-·te,1 the lton. gentlema11, vve '.vould nOt < ;, Yil at jt, bnt it is going to br•.'ak down th-,twwJ .. of othc1·, ;ntd th ..• t is the reason we obj·:at to it.

Mr. H. L. HARTLEY : You were t" itting us the nthor dav for not putting our platform into o]wration.

Hox. J. TOLMil<~: I do not intend to speak furtlwr on this matter other thun to < mphc~i· e what ha•s been said by hon. gentle­!Ten on this side, who have said that this mc:J-:;ure i,<O; un\Varranted bv- the circum:Jtances of tlw Stat" <lt the present time. There is no cviclen<'o for the neces•·,ity of this measure. It will create distrust in th0 public mind when they know thut legislation of a simil'l.r character has already been pa'""''d in this Chamber, and there is some mor<> looming in the near fu~ure. :\.11 these circumstances will have a deterrent df~ct on the industriF·• of the State. We had the Minister orating on the ncc·d for the expanshn of indu.o;tries in Australiu. We all agree with him in thut, but on the top of that rmnark he brings down legislation of this kind, which i .. , of a most ·destructive nature. The hon. gentleman claims to assist the producers, but he is going to h'tra>o•< them. The gentleman who is the censor of the value of g·ood•, in the State, Fflys that he recei '' , his mandate from the Government; and, so far as he is con­cerned. it is the Government that is doing it. and not him. It is passed on to him, and he continue' to fix the price. That will destroy the confidence of the public in the administration of the affairs in Queensland. The Acting Premier would be wise if he consulted the membBrs who had some know­ledge of the industry. The Government, bv thPir legislatior., will destroy the confidence of the people of Qn\•ensland wl)o have got money to advance tho best interests of the State. Twelve months ago the :Minister spoke about the m0at industry, but sincB then he has changed his opinions, because he has now rc,e;JOneibility thrust on his shoul·ders. I think he should take the advice of the men who know something· about this industrY, and accei)t amendments which will restore con­fidence in the public men of the State.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRCCTION (Ron. H. F. Hardacre. Leichhardt) : I think it is right that one or two wmds should come from a member of the Government, and one who repre,ents a pastoral. cl~,tri~t. I represent tho l<iggest cattle distl·Ict m Queensland, and I think I can say a \vord or two as to how this mea­sure affects mv electorate. This afternoon we have had· an exhibition of hostility which has been in evidence on the opposite side of the House ever since t<te commence­ment o.f the seFsion. Hon. members opposite proclaimed that they were going to heln the Government, but they have oppos<>d every piece of legislation i~suing from this side of the House. They are continuing the hostility

[Han. J. Tolmie.

which thev started in the early part d the session. To-night we have witnessed a. most diGgraceful attack upon the Govern~":'nt policy. when the hon. member for \1 Ide Bav spoke of going about among peaceful people dcclnring that the 0-overnm<':.1c were a lot of mad dogf:l runn1ng a·mo1c La~';t se,sion the hon. member and other hon. members on the other sido sctt behi?d a Go­vf'rnment \Yhich have pa• sed a B1ll not a bit le-s drastic than this, and t;1ey mp­ported that Bill.

l\h. BoOKER: Tho occasion dmrc·mcle...l it.

Tho SECRETARY FOR PL'BLIC IN­STRUCTION: The occasion demc n;:!s it as much to-d:ty. I an1 going :o gtve. ~v\o rea<.0ns which in th(•mselns ar.> Eu.ffiment justification for this Bill. The first '.S that I represent one of the largest cattle distncrs in Queensland, and I have had representa­tions made to me by large cattle-owners that the meatworks have not treated them hirlv-that in time of drought when they wanted to soil the;r stock the wot'ks would not give them a fair price. To s_ee that the cattle-owners of the State are fairly tre~ted by the meatworks ~s in .itsel~ a suffiment justification for passmg this BilL

2\!Ir. BooKER: Before the me:ttworks came here, cattle in your district "!nly. fetched £2 a head, and now they arc brmgmg £10.

Thr SECRETARY FOR _PU_BLI9 r-=:-­STRUCTION: Tho other JUstification 1S

this: Admitting that largelJ: because .. of drougM, at the time the Ir:'J?"erial authont:es r.·quirod meat for the mihLttry and na • a) foree,;, neycrthele's the meatworks closed down and ceased sending m<'c1t to the old countrv. Admitting that the drought w~s partly" responsible for that. action on therr part, still there were considerable numbers of fat stock ;n the State that could have been treated, and they were where they could have travelled to the meatworks, t'?o­I just want to call attention t? a little m­cident that occurred last sesswYo'. . At ~he time the Government wm-c negohatmg wrth the Imnerial Government with regard to mpat. the meatworks threotened that, if they could not get a price above what was ar­r;.~nged, they would close do.wn. That was at a time when the Imperial forces were engaged in fighting in defence of the Em­pire.

Mr. BOOKER : I rise to a. point of order. The Minister is making statements that are devoid of truth and are a reflection upon honourable men.

The SPEAKER: 'l'here is no pomt of order.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION: There is no fiction in what I state. It was ,tated in the Press.

Mr. BOOKER: Absolute rot. The SPEAKER : Order ! GovERlDIENT MEMBERS: Mad dog, mad

dog!

The SPEAKER: Order! I must ask hon. members to refrain from interjections. If they do not, I shall have to adopt a. different course.

Mr. BOOKER: I apologise for causing a disturbance, and I will leave the Chamber.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTION: The meatworks were pre­pared to close down when the Imperial

Meatworks Bill. [21 SEPTEMBER.] Workers' Compensation Bill.

authoritiv. were in need of meat. It is only a little while ago that the le-ader of the Opposition twitted the Government with not bringing into operation one of its pledges -that was to provide the people of Queens­land "'·ith cheap mco.t. The late Government pa·sed an Act last session to provide the Imperial authorities with che:1p meat, and one rem<)ll \vhy we are justified in passing thi Bill is beeau•c it will nrovide our own people with cheup meat. Ir~ the Act passed last year the Government took power to commandeer stock, but they omitted to take power to compel the mcllt companies to d.grce to roa.::onable terms. There i" ample justification in what I have said for the introduction of the BilL and the other side should admit that the Government in intro­ducing it iJ rarrying out one of the pledges it made to the people of the country.

::'11r. ROBERTS (East Toowoomba) said that when Ministers had been asked to show >vhere the fat cattle were which could be treated n.t the meatworks thev had always said that they knew where they could be

got, which was the only evidence [12 p.m.] they could obtain. He thought

that :Mr, Taylor, the chief Go­vernment inspector, who had been referred to by the hon. member for \Vide Bay, could tell them the most ab0ut the matter. He had in hL hand• an extract from the "Daily Mail " of 8th Sentembe,·, giving a copy of a letter from l\lr. Taylor hhowing the losses of cattle due to the severity of the drought, to which cause the closing of the meatworks ;n the metronolis was clue. Mr. Taylor sho\Yerl that there was not anything near the quantity of cattle in the country to keep the meatworks going. l'vlr. Baynes, of Baynes Bros., had also stated that they had previously employed 200 men, but had had to close down their w-,rks, and were only employing twenty men for their local trade, to supply which they had five men going over the country to buy cattle wherever they could be got. If fat cattle were procurable, would Mr. Baynes be employing five men to go through Queensland to buy cattle? The hon, member for Wide Bay had been chal­lenged as to the price he haJ stated tnat he and others were prepared tc pay for cattle last year. According to " Hansard," the hon. member stated that he was prepared to accept the price prevailing a, week previous to the outbreak of war. The acting leader of the GoYernment knew that no such sum as £1 Ss. was mention•?cl on that occasion. He doubted whether any good would come out of tho Bill, but in Committee they would be able to show where improvements could be inserted in the measure to safeguard the interests of those who wore affected by it, From the time that the Premier had been to the Trades Hall they had begun in the House to talk about the introduction of the l'vleatworks Bill. Whatever they might think of the Premier going to the Trades Hall, they had to remember that at that meeting a gentleman got up and said that they were going to get the meat some way, and, if by no other way, then by force, There was every justification for the statement of the Opposition that the Bill was introduced as a sop to the Butchers' Union.

Question put and passed The consideration of the Bill in Com­

mittee was made an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

The House adjourned at twelve minutes past 12 o'clock a.m.

795