[COUNCIL. I

legislative Counicil,Ii ednesdaq!, 131h, Sc-pliber, 1933 .

Bills: Selling Act Ameanent, SRt.Financial E_,gene. Tax, 2R.....Reduction of nents Act Oonttiace, liR.Milne, Workers' Relief Act Ainendulent, 2K.

noe.n: liinistertall traveiting: allowances..Motion: Rtaniways, cpiltn account, to Inquire

.select cotittee .. .. ..by

Mail838838842842844

853

'The l-'Wl SLEN''1 took tine Chair at 430)plot1, aind read jprayens.

BILL-MINING ACT AMENDMENT.

fiend a third lttlne. antd p.,xeed.

BILL-FINANCIAL EMERGENCY TAX.

±Secondl WingU.

.Deb a te resumen nd fromi thne pitt ion s dav.

HON. H. SEDDON (North-East) [4.35]:An rtideistanriiti was established in thleHouse dInrij, the( debarte ont the FitrancialEmierg-ency Tax A ssessienrt Act AmiendmentBill that, the two Bills woil'l, he dliscussed

ns one. untfortnnitel-v I was unablIe to pat-ticipate in tliat discnassion, hut I do innotiltend to transgress onl that account. M.%yrenmarks will really ' ,ave to do will til te lines-tion of taxation, at question whnich at pre-sent demnitrds tnore thnr ortli airy ,conisidera-tHon by the Ho use. Nye ki ow thn th )e Stateis notl itreetingl its liablilities, and that cer-taitn Governmtent assets aire not pcin, tltei rway, inl addition to which we have certaitnexpendlitute thnat must go ott in tilie carrying,out of Governmnrt services. Tite oily wayiii which we cal in teet that expenditure is;either by taxation or by loan expeindituire.2lanvy of us areC op~posed to an 'y further loatnexpenditure, especialfly ill view of the eonl-dit ion in which mrai v of thIe Governimentassets, which line being" conrdtrled ant pre-sent. fronir loan., staind to-ilav. Tlhenefore ftealternative is taxantioin. il ;ttttnip)tiiig todeal withttne Bill, (,speciarl[.%. i thle direcltinof anietdinng, it, we Irave to bear inn tinndthlat tilt gros, amount estimated b% the Gov-etlnient to (.)ile Itn as tire result of this, tax(dllit bie reduced: in taed havtin l-eardtot the state of hlie filriinn~ces. onne Canl 0111.crlrn.1zd 'flat 11o more.1 Will bie teceived [ hall

is trecesa iv. 'itis iiietiiod of trutatior, is oneowi h I have a! wac vsuppol rted beca use Iconsider ithat taxation at tire soure is atonce tine iniost effective and [ie least felt.The aninuiai itecurelie of oiu, inicie taxaslsessinen rs frequeintly liaigs its race to facewith tilIe rievess ilv ton iiniiing an tinliountHt i kes at great deal ofi meeting- withoutout- bting able it, ma~ke ptepa~ratioii for it.That ikahilitv doe,, not occuri when tile tax-a tioni is deducted fromt tin it to tin . A1great deal of the g-roun d regaidling- this taxlias a Lncadv boent Covered by leViOuISspeakers and( neud iiot be gout ove r agrain. AL

g-ood (leal of in~form)ationl as ito expenditurehas beens given to uts by the Mfinister, acidI foci sure that i nfoinatioli Will have a inate-rlial influence onl members in the view theytake of this tax. We have to recog-nise thatthe Bill, as wvell ats tile assessnient measure,is ill accordance wit)h tire policy enunciatediby the Governmnen t, who have tronn tine totime expressed their disapproval of thle so-lcalled flat rate. The Bill represents an at-temipt to titer that rate. A great deal hasbeen mnade ofl the idea of regulating at taxby capacity to pay; and that has beenti etwithn tile arginlent forl tile gtnlntilg of tinelegislation bnefore us. While that is ati ira-portanit aspect of' taxcatioin. I annl innclinod totltink it hasl been carried altogether too far.There ill a very gieat d iiffeience betweenrecngttisilug arid aidjtn tI x with tilecapacity of a person to pity\ taxation. anidthre exempting of' scnle peop.le front tile pas' -inienit oif ant taxes att all. 'Tlant is wherediffer fromt Ihe prlic-Y of the Government. [itit demnocrantic communinity establ~ishled with theidea of being selft-reliant, thnere should ob-fain thle futndanmentanl principle tirant everycitizen should heat- some part oi tithe expeniseof governing- the con ttrv. a id, certailydshould hear. is proportioni ofl the( expenseof the free services rendered liv the Covern-moent. It has b)een, arguned tlta t those to iteexempted itinder the Bill ate paving. tin-diretly in certain direetiotis that is true,esqpeially- inl regard to tire Federal tahriff anidtire sales, tax. But that is rathecr a vrcioubpninncill t, lit peititttel to creep inito tirepolicy of. taxation. It has its reactions inlpolitical propagatda, creatig a certain tin-desirable al titrille toairds Governmnent ex.penditirre. By tha t proparrandat only toofeieittly it ocurs that while )ellefit rareertJoyed by certar j sections or tile tollunit-it;' other sections have to (Io atli thle paying.

[1. SVerrr.%fI'ss, 119.33.3 9

11011. .1 Nichiolson: It is- said that thoseexeinimhed pay intlireertl 'Y.

lion. H. SEDDON: Tfhere~ againi ie enl-tourage qulite al false idea, bect-nse whiletitev do not recognise thet Inril vflltt orf int-

ilirft't taxation, if tile taxation were direetit would enable people to realise exactly tilei'ost o~t tile serviceA tile 'v enijoy. .AtIt{'reilI

tnativ of themn entertain thme ideas that thevothler fellow is pa iyitig.

Ibi..1. Nieliolsolii: Ilie 4110'es iol mmv e'X-

vllisivelv.

lintl. 1-1. SEIDitN : t'lldmldvlr1la:1 1s

s o. 3ltv oh1 or iel fIOi" taevil

d i froill I li eairly days of Parliamentarygoveriinment antd are aim'eeited without regarI"io the chsatrige, thu t hj;Lve ocecurred in thel'irito11ithe. 'I'lii htttipr (if e xemptions comesA1. wit I'11:1 ttHIV t i moe when tile wagltes Of the

w. al_ It1ar imAtt iere ntot silijiet to thle Conl-lrmi ol' tile -Arh'itratitil (mirt, and from the

tinie when the workers were not represenitedint I-ariaiiiaaet, aind were i nO cud in stnelt a1)l1O i jut fitltlt 11(1111 I: is tit lie tllie to PayI iax e. WNithi tile estillisinent of tihe Arbi-I il it'l ('otrt that state oh' affuirs hias beeneitlt lv aitereul. li-es ace ntow delct eiitetli)Yth-le cow rl, and thIerefore onle of flte lame-totrs tltat Shtould he t ike inito 1vimisideraf ion1) ,tv le I-oiti-t is thev pa~vilien (it laxation,wichv slimili be coisiilcrcll when wvages arebeing deterinted.

The Honorary Mfinister: You are awr~ethlat it is not taklen into consideration.

lioni. 1-1, SEI)DON : Yes, bitt I see nortxt-suityt it should nut he, ii' it were brought

tinder tile notic of the court. So T contendthant my' argnent iioid% g-ood. The assess-ment mneasure, onl thle oilier hand. as weamiended it, inieimes many wito do ntuo rv-ceive the basic wvage. AS an.1 illustrabon~, Iagain refer to the position of certain gold-felds employees, of the Govertnent who arer-eeivingt less: than thle basic wage, and ofcourse to those who arc onl sustenance. Theremjedy is in, tile hands of the Government.If the meeting of tint obligation should in-v'olve the Government in additional expendi-ture, they wvill have a strong argument forthe 'retention of the scale adopted in theBill. As to sustenance, we know that thepolicv the Government itave outlined in tinePress ilt involve a considerable increase inexpenditure nit sustenance. We saw theanttonceemit by Mr. Kenicahir. w-hoshowed that arrangemients were being madefiir rueD to hle at certain time on full pay and

V. certain tune Oit sustenance. The puttinginito olperationt of that programme involvesthe Goverunment in increased expenditure,ntd therefore I say the amount they are

going to receive utider the .Act wHi inaturallycomue into consideration. Certain informa-tifi sthotuld be placed before the House whilewe areceoutsidering this Bill. Mr. BaxtersAys.1 lie intends to alter the incidence of thetax, and advanced certain figures when dis-cussing the Assessment Bill in support ofhis4 contention that lie would thereby be ableto raise the sonic amnount that is providedin tlte Bill, On the other hand, I think thatbefore we take any such serious step weshonid have kuthoritative information fromthe Commissioner of Taxation and from theGovernment .Statistieian. W\hen one con-siders the returnis tlitti are received uinder thehosp41ital tax, and ~oumliares them. with theaillotats ;;hich are supposed to be receiveduitder this tax, we see there must bie a con-sidcrahhe difference. As the two taxes arecol1lected at thle source, that difference shouldbe cleared up by the authorities before wemake any attempt to alter the incidence ofthe tax, atid the grades proposed by theBill. For thaqt reason I intend to support thesugg-estion that the 'Bill be referred to a sel-ect commnittee, whose members could consultthe offcers concerned, and no one else, andwho could also have some sort of understand-ing as to what the Government's policyT was.This information is necessary to enable theHouse toD give ani intelligent decision uponthe proposal to alter the raLtes. AXnotheraspect on which information is desirable isns to thie p)ohkvA of Governmnen.t expenditure.espetimllY with regarid to emcergeney legisla-l ion. Certain Bills have already beenIn-oughIt dowrn, being associated with Actsthat wtere lfCel ol tile statuite-hook follow.ing, upon the Premiers' Plait. Other Billshave not yet been introduced. A Ministerialreference has been made to the matter, andit was indicated that these merasures wouldbe brought down.

Hon. J1. J. Holmes: When it suits the Gov-erment.

Hion. H- SE P1)0K: Tr did not iian to saythat. We understand they wilt he broughtdown in some form or other. We can seefrom that statenient that alterations are con-teniplated to these nieasures. This Houseshould be in possession of the informationbefore we pass the Bill whichhas been brought down.. and finalize

S39

840 [COUNCIL.]

consideration of this one. Whatev'er int- type of financing luas sme serious featuresprovenient has taken 1)lace in the p)ositionof the State and the outlook for- the State,I do not think anv of uts can minain thatsuch alteration has, been of a kind to justifyus in making drastic ameiidments to the finl-ancial emergency legislation. The State hasnot vet balanced its budget. The decisionof thie Loan Council would seem to inudica tethat that is not contemplated, and that theStates wviii continue to create deficits. I call-not sec any wat'y in which the States in tendto balance their budgets. It seems to be theaccepted idea that they will continue to in-cur certnin loan expenditure, and float loansraised by Treasury bills.

lion. A. Thomson: Something like sixmillion pounds.

Haln If. SEDDON: According to thestatistical return to the 30th Jutne last, thereis to the account of Western Australia tenmillion pounds in debentures, 58 millionpounds in inscribed stock, and 13 millionpounds in Treasury bills and bonds, makinga total of 831 millions. There is an un-doubted increase iii the public debt as a con-sexquence of the advent of the depression.From the same authority we find that in1929 the amount of the State's interest andsinking fuind bill was 3.V million pounds, andthe average nominal rate of interest was 44per centt. In 1933 the amount of the inter-est and sinking fund was 3j millions, asagainst 3A in 1929, and the average nomainalrate of interest was 3.9 per cent. Thatshowed a very slight increase in the actualamount of interest and sinking fund con-tributions by this State, but a very largeincrease in the amount of public debt. Thepublic debt in 1929 was 69.4 million pounds,and in 1933 it was 83J million pounds. Al-though the public debt increased somethinglike 14 million pounds the actual amount ofincrease in our interest and sinking fundbill was £168,000. The burden of interesthas not increased anything like in propor-tion to the debt, oil account of the averagenominal rate of interest having dropped duor-ing the period. That is an important fac-tor. It shows that the persons who aire ad.vancing money' to enable us to earrl'y oil aretaking considerably less interest lier cent.than they did at the beginning of the tie-1 ressi on. This has been lbroughit aboutalmost entirelyv by the fact that the finatne-ing has been done by mncans of short termloans onl Treasu r- bills. Nevertheless that

in it, and should he regarded only as a temn-porary expedient.

Hll. J. Nicholson: And then the rate manybe increased.

Honl. H. SEDDON: The rate would' hieincreased if the bills were funded

Hon. Sir Charles Nathan: And there,would be thie obligation of a sinking fund(.

Holt. H. SEDDON: There would be theobligation of 4 per ceint., which has to bepaid when deficits aHie fiunded. This againiwould be reflected in taxation. Consequentlywhen we tire considering this Bill we areconfronted by the fact that the Governmentmust havye ain amiount somewhere in the vicini-ity of what they have stated they requireto enab~le them toi car 'r on. Our: progresstowards economic self-suflicieneyv (uriin thedepression has been very slow. In spite ofthe efforts of many people to encourage thecommuinity to p~atrolnise local production theamloulnt of imports both oversea and frontthe Eastern States is still very high, and,last year there was an increase over theprevious year. Experience, all over theworld is driving nations in the direction ofstriving to supply' their requirements almostentirely, fromt their own resources. Anyonewho has examined the posi tion of WesternAustralia will realise at tremendous amountof development can be undertaken in thiisdirection. That is the one course to adoptfor the rehabilitation of our position and toenable us to reach at sound basis. It is theone course which offers the greatestpossibilities with regard to employment.It is also the one course that wvillprovide a local market to assist inthe consumption of those products "'eare now exporting. The burden ofoversea interest is being lightened by a re-duction in interest rates and by means ofconversion loans. Aly contention is that thisis not enouigh. We should have concentratedupon making every effort to i-educe our"oversell ohi igations said( the whole ofour sinking funmd should have been apl-plied towards redeeming our oversee debtcommitment.,. f will go further andsay that the first call upon the finances ofour exports oversea should lie devoted tothis purpose. It is recognised by economiststhat nations can only trade with each otherby the exchange of goods. There is nothingto prevent Western Australia from buyingits boncls-wvliehl have been floated overseas

[13 SEnEMBER, 1933.) bMl

-w-ith the surplus of its exp~orts, and pur-chasing only tho,e imports whic-l are essen-tialI. That is the position Ave wvill have tofance sooner or latecr, if we intlend to becomeanyvthing like a self-contained community.We -hllI have to do solnethi ig, drastic tolighiten the burcden of oil, oveisea oli ga -tions. I ant entirely oipposed to the idea of'iaakinl- this Bill retro.spective it, a pplied Io

salaries and wages. This House has iusual])-been vry strong oil the question of retro-spection. It has slipped onl one or twvo occa-sions. 'Members will recall the cflestion ofhire purchase agreements when the applical-tion of the principle of retrospection wasadopted by this House. That, I think, wasa great mistake. Members have nowv revertedto their old attitude onl the sidbject. and Ihope they will adhere to it. The scaile laiddow-n in the Bill is one !fhat w-arra nts notoni l v serious thoughit. hut fu rthier iniformsa-tion. I stlpf-ort Mr. B~axter's proposal thata small selnet 2,omnittee should lie appointedto get the necessary information over theweek-cn, and p111lresenlt it to the House, per-lhaps next Tuesday. We should then knowwhat amtount it is proposed to raise fromtime '-arions sections which arc contributingunder I he ho~pital tax a ad the financialemcrgency tax. We shall also know what isto he expected by way of contribmut ions fromnthe sections referred to in thle report of theCommissioner ot Lisa tioml. The talble givenby 'Mr. Baxter, and founded onl that. report,does not give all the informationl required.A large number of people are not renderingannualtly any income tax returns, and yetthey are contributing by way of their wVagessheets. It appear-s to me these figures willhave a material effect in modifying the cal-culations of the lion. member. I support thleBill in the hope that it vill be aniended inComminittee, and urge the House to refer itto a select committee.

HON. J. J. HOLMES (Northl) [4.58] : Ipropose to offer only' a few- reniarks on thisBill. It seems to me that this House, having-shattered the walls of the structure, and thefoundations of the Assessment Bill, is nowbeing asked to put a roof oil the structu,before the fate of the Assessment Bill hasbeen decided. It would be absurd to pro-ceed with this Bill until we know what isgoing to happen to the other one. if theLeader of the House will on behalf of theGovernment say they are prepared to accept

the amendments to tile Assessment Bill, as itleft this Chamber, we call proceed with thebusiness.

H~on. G. Fraser: And show the white flag.Holl. J. J. HOLMES: Until we know

that, I cannot see that any good can bepained except possibly by referring the Billto a select committee, but certainly no goodvaln h it gi ned by' pro~eedinug with it now.We have partedl will, the Assessmlent Bill.If we go on with this one and amiend it, suchamendments may require some clause in theother Hill to be altered. We cannot, how-ever, deal wvith that aspect of the question.Once it Bill leaves this Chamber we can onlydeal with the amendments that have beenmaide by us to certain clauses. The clausestha't hi 'e ei ,e' p a se d havye Ibeen pa ssedl onlceand for till. 1 cannot see how this I [ouse callcompile a tax Bill lipon an Assessment Billthat has been hanged, drawnn a 1d( quartered.No mie knoaws whether it is dead or alive.IHow can we proceed at this juncture?My, candid opinion is that when wecomec to emiergency taxation the onlyequitable basis is the flat rate.Certinly niler timat everybodY pays onl thesamei basis, but a ma1n1 getting Over £1 atweek pays onl X1, and a mnail getting £4 payson £4. and sot oin. That is the only incometax that tile wvage earner on the lower gradepays. The hig-her grade manl pays on agrdated scale. 11' we take inito conisiders-

tion the taxation that the)' pay on their in-comes, an~d plus1 that onl every £1 of incomethat they get, it will be seen that they arecaught at both enlds and are discouragedfrom developing any business with whichthey mnay, be connected. A mail iii possessioniof alli-v mniley now i s prepared to take 2V2pler cent, from the bank on fixed deposit.He knows that if he invests motley in thesetronblous times he is up against two hardfaets. O,,e is that he may lose the moneyand the other is that he may increase his in-comec to such anl extent that it will be takenfrom him. The Premnier entirely agrees withme onl this point because during the presentsession he said, "Everyone knows that in-creased taxation means increased tnemploy-ment and increased trouble and difficulty."With that statement I entirely agree. I donot propose to say more than that I do notthink the House is justified in proceedingwith the Bill at the present juncture. If th~eLeader of the House insists on putting it tc

[COUNCIL.]

the second reading vote, I shall record myvote against it.

On motion by Chief Seeretaiy, debate ad-journed.

BILL-REDUCTION Or RENTS ACTCONTINUANCE.

Received from the Assemibly -md read afirst time.

BILL-MIN{E WORKESRS' RELIZIr ACTAMENDMENT.

Second Reading.

Debate restumed from the 7th September.

HON. E. H. HARRIS (ot-at[5.6j : The Bill is important as it amnendsthe parent Act which was before this Houselast session and onl which the then Ministerfor Mtines, Mr. Seaddan, spent a consider-able amount of time and energy ;aind held afew conferences in the hope of effectingdesirable amemnents. Since the passing ofthe Act of last session several anomalies havebeen discovered, and the Crown Law authori-ties, who framned that AcUt, now find thatcertain emtployes, who should he entitled tocompensation, apparently do not comne underthe ternis of the Act. The Bill before usproposes to rectify the position and the re-marks that 1. should like to make may per-haps he of assistance to those hon. memberswho are. not as familiar -with the operationsof the Act as are the goldfields members.In Section 3 of the parent Act there is pro-

vision that, after the passing of that Act,the Miners' Phthisis Act of 1922 and itsamendments and Regulations will comewithin the purview of the board. Under thescheme that formerly existed relating tomine workers' relief there was provision forvoluntary payments, one-third of the rev-enue being paid by those engaged in the in-dustry, one-third by the mtining companies,and the other third by the Government. Thefirst minenxhnient in the Bill preserves therights of a few inca, who by an extraurd-inaxy set of circum~stances appear to havebeen overlooked, and who are not now en-titled to compensation owingr to the Ministerlast year having given them permission toawork on the surface instead of underground,and some of them having gone before theboard and some to the laboratory have beenprohibited from working- but received no

conmpensation. Thenl hy another clause, weprovide for thle mantle of protection to fallOnl at few alfiicteci )len, and again, thedlaiy in the proclamation of the newAct caused at small itnuaber of men tobie deprived of compensation under the new-provisiofls, Another setion provided thatno beneficiary should be entitled to -sitonl the board to administer the Act.That, by the way' , was pirovided for inaI forner WVorkers' Compensation Ast andwvas omtitted when the new one was drafted.Then dela , vs hanve oceairreri ili determiningwhether, al[tee an USa.1naahon, sa jutanshould be prohibited fromt working, and ifso, whethe he would receive Iscompen-sa tion from the date hie had been rejectedby thme Miedical Board, or from the date heceaised work. Provision is now madec forthese miatters to be uletermnined hr thehoard. We were under the impression thatin the original Act that was so, but wehad to submuit to the ruling of the CrownLaw ant horities. 'T'here arc two elmui inthe Bil] which to me do not appear veryclc r. fl' members will look at the col)iousexplanatory notes tlint are attached to theBill, they, like nmyself, mnar not be able tosatisfy themuseLves as to exactly wvha ismeant. Onl these question" we m1ay IAk 0LHonorary llfinister to give us soic infor-nllatifu wheni the Bill is in Commuittee.They relate firstly to lump suin paymentsto beneficiaries -when they are eligible, ifat all1, to secure relief from the original1Mine Workers' Relief 'Fund now% adnminis-tered by) them; a nd, secondly; in regard.to compensation. Provision is made forhalf Wages Up to £,3 10s. and 7s. 6d. perchild onl lines somewhat simnilar 10 thoseprovidedI in the 'Workers' CompensationAct. I know that seine difficulties havearisen in that connection and sonic mencomplain that they have received (lec comn-piensation to which they understood theywere entitled. I have read the explanatorynotes hut I am not quite clear about them.The position, however, can be explainedwhen we reach the Committee stage. itthe meantime ( will support the secondreading of the Bill.

HON. H. SEDDON (North-East) [.5.121:My~ remarks will be brief becanse, as thepreviouis speaker said, this is essentially aComamittee Bill. I do think, however, weaire jtustified in offering some comament onthe nasamner inl which legislation is put be-

[J3 SEPTEMBER, 393-3.]14.

fore uis. Last session thle Mline Workers'Relief Act was liron-lht to the I-ouse afterwhat we were told was a very thorough in-restigation, and we were given to under-stand that the Bill had been prepared bythle Crown Law lDepartment and that everyaspect that was likely to -arise as the re-stilt of experience iii dealing with the mntinder the Mliners' Phthisi- Act and( theWVorkers' Compensation Act had been givellthle Closest attentionk. We find, however,that the present Bill is introducedto correct certain anomnalies that havearisen frm rlig ivenl by theCrown Law l)epartrnent, the verypeople who drafted the original Act.For some time past. we have been compelledto consider the wvay' in which Bills Hlave beendrafted. 'We have longl involved clauslesplaced before uts and saturn of iein wouldtake a Philadelphia lawyer to undeistand.There has certainly been] a considerablechange. ill the way legislation hans been placedbefore us in reecnt years as conipareil withyears a go. Somei of the anmendmnts pr'o-posed inl the Bill aire to ov-ercome rulitlnIrsgi ven by the Crown Law Department. ndthey are said' to he necessary to convey thlespirit ot' thle original A0. Why was4 iiit

that provision made -when thle original low,islation was being draifted ? I have only' torefer to -Section :3 which apparently was de-vised to deal wvith the muen wvho were in sius-pense, as. it were. They were bring heldtinder the previous legislatiion and their caiswe're to be determined before this Act shouldoperate. The wording of the provis ion xvasvery definite, but we have been told that thedepartment are not s atisfied with it. MrIt.Harris has referred to Clause 10. If niern-hers refer to tile explanatory notes and thento the very long Clause 10, they will findcertain things requiring explanation thatthe explanatory notes do not afford. Tnlamending the original Act it is intended toprovide that a manl shiall receive his f3 10s.compensation, but in cases where there ishardship the man is to be entitled to an adi-ditional amount. I contend that the clauseis not at all clear as to how the fund% aireto be charged with thle various amounts, anldais to howv the position of the mien will beaffected.

H~on. E. H. Harris: It is a matter of ini-terpretation of what constitutes a hardship.

Hlon. H. SEDDON: But there is: also thequestion of the charges, and it seems to mnethat other anomnalies will occur. The Act

provides that a man shall receive his cornm-lpensatioa at the rate of £3 10s, a week untiltile maximium of £750 has been exhauisted.N1ow there is in additional provision thathie shall. receive further amounts where hard-ship exists.

Hon. J. .3. -Holmes: IS the word "'hard-ship" usred?

Hon. H. SEDDON: Yes.lHon. J1. J4. Holmes: Is there ainy defini-

tion of it?Hon. Hf. SEDDON: Not so far as I can

see. The point I should like to have clearedimp is front what fund will the additionalamount be p~aid, and what will be the posi-tion of the manl who is drawing over £3 10s.a week in relation to the complete sum of£750'? Let tie give an illustration. Takea. uta-n, having a wife, who is; receiving £310s. a week. l1c will cut out his £C750 corn-pensation in just over four years. Nowtake a maon with a large faily who -willreceive anl ailount over and above £3 10s.Does it meani that time larger amnount willlie taken into consideration inl relation to the£750?1 Ef so, the mian wvould probably ex-haust the total in a little over three years,The parent Act provides that when he hasdrawnt tile £750, lie shall comle on the MineW1orkers' Relief Fund.

Hon. E. IL Harris: If he drew the £-310s. it would take four years to exhaust the£73 0.

Hon. H-. SEDDON': I have pointed thatout; the difference inl the two eases wouldbe about one year, and the fund would haveto provide for thle one manl a year beforeit provided for the other. These anomualiesshould be inquired into by the Mlinister andcleared tip before flue Bill is taken into Comn-uiittee. I do not wish to deal with the finan-cial aslpect becanse, unfortunately, the Audi-tor-General's report is not before us andwve do not know the position of the compen-sation fund. We do know, however, thatthere is a large contingenlt claim against thefund uinder the original Act. and one wvon-ders how far the fund will be able to meetthe claims that -will arise, and how far thecompulsory Mine Workers' Belief Fund willbe drawn upon when iten have exhauisted.their conipensaition under the 'Workers' Corn-pensation Act. There is one point to whichI wish to direct attention because it is veryvimportant. It affects the mnen who will comeunder the M1ine Workers' Relief Fund. Therehas been an amendment of the Old Age and

S 43

[COUNCIL.]

]Invaliid Pensions Acet, and a quiestion has-arisen regarding thle position of tile menwho are receiving- inconie from tdit- UineWorkers' Relief Fnund, I understand that

.a ruling has been given by tine t'oanioii-wealth Crown Law IDepartmnit that aliyperson receiving money under the MinleWl~orkers' Relief Fund i-s regarded as receiv-ing, income, mid tinder the provisions oil 'heFederal legislation, his4 pension is iaterimill

affected. it comies dlown to tile i5s. rate aISagainst 17s, 6d.

lion, E. H. Harris : That position liaris-en only since the institution of the con-tributory fund.

Hon. H. SEDD ON: I understand theposition has arisen because of the passingof this legislation which makes contributionto the Mine Workers' Relief Fund comnpul-sorv. I understand, too, that there has beencon~siderable confusion amongst the peopleaiiiistering the MINine Workers' ReliefFund and the Old Age Pensions Act, but theruling I have mentioned has recently beengiven from Melbourne, and is the decidingfactor. As the men will he affected, I eon--sidered it desirable to bring the matter be-fore the House. I support the Bill becausetbe anomalies existing- should be cleared up,bitt there are important points connectedwith the later clauses of the Bill that I hopethe 'Minister will explain in Committee.

HON. J. J. HOLMES (North) [5.221 : I,do not intend to oppose the Bill. T haverisen to ask for some information. As I-uniderstand the position, the Governmentprovide somnething towards the Mine Work.Ors Relief Fund.

Hon. H. Seddon: The Government pro-vide one-third.

l1on. J. J. HOLMES: I should like the_Ilimister to tell us what the one-thirdamounts to at present and what it is likely-to amount to if we make the amendmentssuiggested in the Bill. I claim and have al--ways. claimed that if there is one industrythat ought to carry its afflicted, it is thegoldinining industry, especially with goldat the present high price. In these times ofdiffliculty, , the general public should not beburdened with the afflicted of the miningindustry, when the industry itself is; contri-bulting.L to tile e'xtent of onlyv one-third. Infact, T do not cons;ider that the State shouldpay anything- at all. There is another ques-tion. namely that of secession and separa-

tion, We have a joint select comimit~tee ofbo0th Houses considering time ques tion ofeffecting the State's withdrawal from theConumonwealth. .I peStWl the committeeranm see a way out; otherwis-e they would lintIbe continluing thiril inivestigations. A sec-tion of thle -oldlields people refuse to betakeii out of tile Federation. They wvill re-nin part of the Commionwealth evel if theyhave to raise an a rmy and fight their wayoait of thle State and into the(, Coninionwealtli.If we reach that stage, and they fighit theirway out of the State, the quest ion will ariseais to who will be respoiisible for the pay-mnents wve have ma11de to thle mine ownersl?Would we have any claim?

13o1. C. 13. Wvilliamns: Who will paly thewar peiisions?

lon. J. J0.1, OMES : If tile goldfleldsbecame ai Separate entity, woild ouri respon-sibilities ceazie? It takes a lot to satisfy tilepeolple of the goldfields.

Hon. E. H. Harris: You are running therisk of getting into deep W8ler.

Hon. J. J. HOLMES: I ami coingm to thedeep water-the wate~r supply3 scheme whichhas cost thme State £100,000 a year for 23years. That has been a charge on the gen-eral taxpayer and for it wve have receivedno thanks. I wish to know to what extentthe State has subsidised the mines to comt-pensate the men who have become afflictedin the industry, and to what extent we willbe required to subsidise them in future. Alsowhat additional amount iil be involved tomeet the costs incurred by the passing ofthis Bill.

On motion by Hon. 11. ("T. Moore. dlebate

RETURN-MINISTERIAL TRAVELLINGALLOWANCES.

Debate resuimed from the 23rd Auguston the following- motion by Hon. E. H. H.Hal:-

That a returni Ihe laid on thme Table of thmeHouse Showing-

(i) The, total anmcnat of travelling allow-nmes dlrawni by the Ministers of theCrown (durinig the 12 mnonths enldedthe .30th Jumie, 1923, 1929, 1931, and1932, respectively.

(ii) flow many visiits to the Loan Councilwere made byT the Premier during theabove-mentioned periods.

113 SkuPTEMBEX, 1933.] 845

HON. J. J. HOLMES (North) [5.27]: 1do not propose to attempt to justify theremairks of the mover of the mot ion regard-ing M inisters of the Crown. Although themister's name has not been mentioned,Lknow him and have had a lot to do with

bimx. I. know what at conscientious workerhe is, and I know him to he a man of out-.standing ability and integrity.

I-b,,. TI. Moore: Hear, hear!Hlon. 31. J. HOLMES: What T am speci-

ally concerned about is that T1 do not wantit to appear to the general public that whena memlber asks for information to whichlie is entitled, he should be spoken of andto in the manner Mr. Hall was in this dIe-hate.

Members: Hear. hear!Hon. J. 3. HOLMES: I remember, when

qulite a young man in another place, I wasattacked by Sir John Forrest wvith the re-sit that the whole H-ouse rose in defenceof me lbecause of my youth. I am standingnow in defence of youth wvho has this les-son to learn, namely, that when he comesinto this House, if he cannot get all hewants, he must be satisfied with what hecan get. It took me a long time to learnthat, but is is necessary for all to learnit. Mr. Hall must also remember the needfor keeping cool. I am certain that whenhie stood up to address the House on thatmotion, he had no intention of attackingthe Minister concerned.

Hon. T. Moore: Then why did he do it?Hon. J. J. HOLMES: I will tell the hon.

member presently. Mr. Hall has been longenough in the House to know that he oughtto keep cool. He was certainly on theright track, and if he had confined himselfto the motion and had left the Ministeralone, as a more able and experienced Par-liamentarian would have done, be wouldhave reached the goal in a much better andshorter wvay. This is information that weshould have. Strange to say, the Leaderof the House declares that we cannot getit. Yet immediately afterwards Mr.Thomas Moore, whom we know and re-spect, as to whom we are satisfied that hewould not make a statement unless con-vinced of its validity, said that the accountswere all audited by the Auditor General.That being so, surely there can he no diMf-oulty in providing the information desired.What we should know for comparativepurposes, in my opinion, is the amount oftravelling expenses incurred by the Collier

Government in the three years precedingthe Mitchell Government, and the amount.of travelling expenses incurred by the 31it-chell Government during their three years.of office.

Hon. C. H. Wittenoozn: That is what Mfr.Hall's motion asks.

Hon. J. J. HOLM1ES: It goes furtherthan that. However, that is informationwhich L think say bon. member is entitledto ask for and should be supplied with.The second part of the motion, which weare told cannot be answered, ruads-

IHow many visits to the Lean Council Aver&indc lY the Prenier during the above-men-tiouiet respective periods?

Surely there must he sonic record of whena Premier leaves Perth and when he re-turns. If there is no such record, thereought to *be. What I am concerned about,however, is the House being sidetracked, asit were, fronm obtaining information it is.entitled to have, information about whichI believe the public are somewhat con-cerned. If an hon. member who asks fordefinite information in a reasonable wvny isto be browbeaten, ostracised, and practic-ally insulted, it will go abroad that wvconstitute a close preserve and that aman who attempts, to step out or' line willbe attacked by all other members of Par-lianient, led on by the Minister in chargeof the House. That is the point which con-nerns me-not the dispute between Mr..

Hall and the Leader of this Chiaber. Andthere is another aspect, the political aspect..It has to be remembered that the attackcame from the Leader of the House anffMr. Thomas Moore.

Hon. T. Moore: Friends of Mr. Troy.Hon. J. J. HOLMES: Yes, and colleagues

of M1r. Hall. Mr. Hall is the member forthe Central Province "'ho is seeking re-election in 'March. So wre begin to get aglimmer of what possibly underlies the.attack.

Hon. T. Moore: Did we ever attack Mr..Mills?

Hon. J. J1. HOLIMES: It is 1unitc evident.from information1 which Alr. Thomna Moorehas been able to disclose to the FHou~'e, thatthere is some ,gentlenman to whom, MIt. Hallhas been kind-

Hon. T. M1oore: I question that.Hon. J. J. HOLMES: -and who has beent

playing a double game, playing up to the.two pa rties. Probably that gentleman ill- I

846 [COUNCIL.]

end ait the bottom of thle ladder, ai, helitoighlt The PR ESIDlENT'': The hont. IflemlIet lias,to, with all others who tr,'y to serve twot um~s-teis. It wouild apvar that tile attatek-unjustitied at clit-was aimedl it iiillnenciiig,.some of MrI. Hall's politic-al supjporter'. Ai-rut'\ assumie that the( G3overnment txpecti]ntem frtomi membeir is of thlis Ho~nuse thani t hey,

(10 fromi iiemiblers of another p latce, bee:, usewe recollect during this sessioni jilt Iltitak lbvthe Premier oin Mr. Keenin tit( donl aniothieres-Minister compared( ( withI whih Mr. Hall'sattack palles into i nsignificanice. Mri. Keeinanihas done peait service to Western Arrat-hia. 1 need mention oly~ one, instance.When the last Federal Disabilities Roy*alICommission was appointed to deal withWestern Australian disabilities, Mr. Keenan,I understand, pulltiup the- case for WesternAustralia, devotiiig to that task (lays andnights and weeks without fee or reward.

The PRESIDENT: I would like to y-e-minid tile, hoin. member- that n iinliI)C hall[1allude to tiny debate of te cueirreint sessionlin the Assemrbly.

Hon. 1. 3. HOLMES: Butl surely. Sir-,we are jferuiitted to read the loioi pape1r.,

The PRIESIDENT: I silnply' quote tleStanding Order. Theie must be no allusion to any debate of the current ss~ion illthe Assembly.

Hon. JI. J. HOLMES: But. Air. Presi-dciii, surely we (-;Ili iead the paprs l 1C ' Wread theill a ad quote from themi everY daYiii the week. -kil I not entitled to refr-

The PRESIDIENT: If the lion. umemtbergives iue the astsurn lce that lie is not icfer-ring to a1 l-bitt. of the c-urreiit sessioni ilkthle Liqbjltjv As,'uilil, i'Rlie iV profi-eti.

Hon. .1. .1. HOLMES: I :til referriilr towhat appeared iii the Press, Sir. It isstrange to see the( sting. The sting i., lot iii'Hausard". but in the newspaper thati

read. Piesumably' somebody-

Thie PR ES IDE) NTI: I mud a-k die hon.inember to reNIXvt the Stanidiung Orders.

Hon. J. J1. HOLMTES: I ala resplectinlgthe Standing tOrders, as I have a IwVoYvs re-spected them and youi decision,. Sir.

Thle PR ESiIDENT: 'rien (-:ii I assumlethat the hat~i. inel-be is tint ,lludiitui io :Idebate or the vuiiieii Se, toi iik the( %Avuti~-bIY ?

Honl. 3- -1. HOLMES : If you rule, Sir.that I ali not to read tire iiioriii pajperor qut froni whlat I have read in tilie iio,-ii-inig paper. I also bow to your decision.

I think, made' it plain that bie was referrintito aI debate of the cu rren t session inl tileLegislative Assemibly.

Hon. J. -1. H OLM IES: If von rale that Iciinnot proceed, MrIt. Presidenti, I ano ee-tailv enti tied to say-

Th~e P'RES1IDENT:' I simply iiote- tiheHtniiiii Order. 'rue lion, mnember wvill aogive lit, the assairanvie that his remiarks .honot refer to ai debate of thle eulrrelitseliiinl the Assemibly.

lon. J1. J. HOLM ES: It is a debate Iianother platce, reported iii the neirspapers,which are i-eferred to every day ilil te week.

The PR ES DEXT: Then the lhon. ient-

her is Riot in order.Ilont. J. -. HOLM ES: Very well, Sir :I

am' sorry. 1If onle ileil llt- call qupiote froiit

thle nlewspapers and I am prohibited fromtdoinRg so, 1 ama veryv sorry. Th debate aatyhlveurrtied ill alnother place; a ad I amntquotinIgi not firom '1k ustird" butl the morn-in- paper. It shows, that inot only did Mr.Collie,- attack -IrI. Keentan andi others, ])utthat lie rcee-red to their ntiontility- -youriiationalitY, Sir-, andlil y nationality.

'file PRESIDEN'r I again luist remindI lie lhon. miemiber that liet is out of ordier.

Ifon. J. -1 I -ItOL3NI S: All right, Sir.When soinelod v else is out of order I willdiraw your attention to it, -t. Presideuit. sothat lie ni-a- iiot g~et oii the saiiI lines iI~did. "'le point is, this, that infor-imationiasked for- bY --%Iz-. Hall11 hit., been refused. 11Ithe refusal wvas tite to \I-- Hall's attack onla Minister, Jperlhaps no exc-eptioni couild b.

onl thle ground that it is Riot available. Thntstatement enire fronm tile Leadter of the 11. u -eand was followed byv a statement frin lir.Thomas Moore thiat all the( accounlts aireaudited liv thlt Auditor-General and thvteverything is iii order. If that 6 s0, -ur:' \this House, iii the p resejit time of strevs i :Ii,:difficult, vheii curtailmnlt or CependiturI0

ill the fronit rank, does not ask to., much'when it -a.k-s for tile atount expeiideid I Nthe Collier- Government in travellinlg *li'ligthe last three Ye-ars the.\, were iii ofili- andiithe voirreponliiig intorimation it, to the.Mitchell Goveinineiat to' their three yvil ofoffice. E vidlenitly o 1ICilteiI tad nt iniaitis set il, for mnemlbers of the Le,,islativeCouncil iii koidditsiii onie aniother, andt anI-other stanidard of mokrality for nieiiihers ofanother place iii addressing onue another:

[M S EITmitE.R. 1933.] 847

and that does not collie firom -:ui,:irdl bitfroim general inuformiation. ]I* N~it. II ill'motion is amniided its sugge1.teil. it will havemny suppor it. M.Iv prinlcipal1 desire fitiiisiniito speak was to dlisabutse titile pbic minOf thle idea thiat it at vouln" nielibler. full ofzen I anud know edge-as tilie L eader of teHouse admits; Mr. H-all t. he-asks; for fitformnation, aill the old hafunds will jump onlhis chtest for fear thatI when they ill turnmay' be in ofice later- their expenditure wvill1,c scruti nised. I snupport tice motion -iub-jctt to thei amendment.

HON. 0. H. WITTENOOM (South-East) [5.43] :1 also wish to eXIreOSAmy regret that the Leader of the Housecannot see his way to furnish Ilwie iforma-tion for which time motion asks. 'The reasongiven by the Minister is that to do so wouldnieafn a great deal of work. He also statedthat the task would be the more dlifficult be-caulse the otliejiais of the various depart-ments were at thme time assisting ill, T La-surer in the preparation of his Budg-et. Itmnust bea recognised that when at Budget isbeing prepared at greti deal of work is ill-volved not only% for the Prcjnier's Depart-nieat bit tfor all departments, and mnem-bel geiierallv will agree tha t that was a,good reason advanced liy the Chjief Sec-retary. However, the time has now arrivedwhen the Budget is complete, and therefore3. (10 hope that the Chief Secretary will re-consider the matter and perhaps furnish theinformation desired b 'y M1r. Hall. After all,the collection of the infoinimation does notappear to be a heavy task. Thie only info,-iation require([ is the total amount of tra-velling, expenses and allowances of variousIfinisters for thle year s in question. Noidetails reg-ardin rin dividual Miiiisters arereqjuiried. It is not stugrted thatt everv-Minister shiould furnish thle infornmationdesired], but that the total amountsspent in travelling, by the two Gov-ernments should be stated. If that infornia-tion is forthcoming, it may showv that peoplegenerl-4Yly hve formed too large all esti-mate of the amnount so expended. I haveIbUen: tLold that WhVIIe MiiJAers do tr-avel 11rM.\inisterial car, an extra engine has some-times to be used to Chidlows Well, or elsea certain proportion of the train-load hastol he droppedl. If that is true, it certainily'ineans that the allowance imust represent a.-tniidtrahle amnount dliling the year.

[oin. J. 'Nivihlson T]hat would not be a iiallowance: it would hle additional ecst.

Hon. Cf. W. Miles: It is additionl costthat the taxpayer has to provide for.

Hon. C. HT. WITTENOOM: It is certainlyextra cost to the railways. 1 would not forone moment suggest that M.Ninisters; shouldnot have the use of the special coachbes onlthe railwaYs. ir~etl they have totake af seireaii-vit typ~ist anid so onl, :,fill Iknlow that on ;nlailv OCeli.9fl5 tile trips areailvtillig bitt jav ridles. TheY involve hardwork and endless worry. There may hetimes; when Ministers have to travel to aPlace to carryv out some relatively unimport-ant dub' when, perhaps, the trip could liedone in at less costly way, hut that would* ,not

1111l'[Y ver y often. Before conelL'ding&, I wishto mnake reference to tile sl)Celles of 1\J i.Hall and the Chief. Secretary. 'flit phaseis one that I do not think any- of uts imp-Iroaceh with pleansure. I have known bothM1t. Hall and( the Chief Secretary practically%aill ItnY life. It wvas a umatter of regret to meto listenl to Mr. Hall's attack upon at 'Minis-ter in aniothier laice amid with equal regreLdid I listen to the Chief Secretar-y's at tackUpon Mr. Hall I do not think the ChiefSecretairy's rearks were fiuite ju tst.

Hon.- E. H. Gray: Mr". fl* I invited I hem.,anlithe got them.

Hon. C. H. WITTEXYOONt I al-ree thatMr. Hall arted( hastily anld jumiped ait coli-elu1sions withou t verifingii, his facets iii anlwaY. B1 e comm iitted a g1rave error in that.direction. Oil the other hand(, I think Mr.Hall wats absolutely sincere. Ini fact, sill.cerity and outspokeuiiess represent cllarac-teristics Of 21:'. Rail1. We must all admitthat, and when Mr. HallI made thestatement that he thought the M1inisterwas making a convenience of tile Mid-land Railway, thereby putting the Stateto at ceitin i aioujt of expelise. wyhereas hlecould hiIave travel led onl I he Cloveruieit Ii iie.ill M1r. 1-all's opinlion, for nothing, hie sin.iert-lv belieyed the sh, teilelt le was mnak -

Hon. TI. Mloo i: But Ali. I fall referriedto travel hir" expenises too.

Honl. C. HT. WfTTrENOO2I[ I understandnow that tile M1inister has at free puss overthle Mlidland railw~avy. Mr. Hall wvas ratherunfortunate, too, in regard to antothmer partof his speech. I happ1 ened to be travelling,down front thle IMureliiol and I filet If",Hall[ and tile MAitti-er he referred to at

[COUNCIL.]

Mullewa. Instead of having a reserved comn-partmnent to which hie was quite entitled, theMinister shared his compartment with me.I was surprised that lie shared his coin-partmiemt with another person. I certainlywould have thought he wvould have travelledin a reserved conmpartmet. .Aniother inept-her msadeI reference (hiring the debateto certain private business ot Mr. Hall. Thlebusiness was most decidedly privaite, a ad thereference "-as, in my opinion, absolutely un-called for. It had nothing to do with] thematter under discussion. So far as we know,Mr. Hall was assisting someone. There mua'be a timae "heni that particular nimmher or-1 may be in iid of a few pounds and notb~e ablde to sece it from the hanaks or ,invother institution, and wvould he pleased toreceive the acconunodation from at frijend.That might happen even to Mr. T. '.[orehimself.

Hon. T. Mo%[ore: Heaven help us if wetfall in to Mr. Hall1's ha nds.

Hon. C. H1. W[TTENOOMf: Mr. Hall "wasbefriending at man.

Hon. T. Moore: That is qi te wronig.

Hon. C. H. WJ'fTENVOOM: 1 think Mr.T. Moore's reference to Mr. Hall was par-ticularly unfortunate. Mr. Moore also comn-plained of tse years mentioned in the motion.Those years we-re two during which theAfitchell-Lathaiii Governmient were in powerand to twvo years during oyhicli the previ-otis Labour Government held office. Mr. Hallwas adversely criticised for having selectedthe years in q~uestioa, but since the debatecommenced, I have seen a letter in an agri-cultural paper that shedM some light on theposition. It shows that Mr. Ball wvas de-finitely told by Isis constituents to mentionthose years. The letter I referred to "'asas follows-

In the '"West Australian'' of tfie 3rd inst.,I read with aniazenent the reply by the Premierto the mnember for Nedlands (Mr. Keenian) inreference to the above subject. Coacerningthe travellinig expenses of some of the membersof the late Cabinet, ugly rumurs have beenafloat for somectime. In consequence of thoserumours the Hon. E. H. H. fll was askedby sonme of his electors to have the expensespublished. After taking six months to makeup hIa mind, the hon. member complied withthea request. But the late Chief Secretaryeither bluffed the Hon. E. H. H. Hall or theHon. E. B. H. Hall bluffed his olectors. Thenet result wats---question not answered. Inview of recent disclosures, our executive shouldpress for the question to be answered. The

new, member for Mt. Marshall has a chanceto prove if hie be of use or otherwise.

The letter, which was dated the 6th Julylast, was signed "Taxpayer".

Hon. T. iMoore: floes that letter mnentionthe years specified in the motion ? It doesnot miake -any reference to them.

Hon. C. H. AVITTENOOM: No, but theletter refers to members of the Mitchell-Lathami Government. So 'Mr. Hall askedthe question relating to two years of theadministration of the last G overnment.

Hon. T. Moore: A ad hie could not get theinftormation fromI th~em.

Hon. C. H. WITTENOOM: )Mr. Hall'smotion covers other years besides the tw-o Ihave referred to. It; ord1er to make the in-formation mnore effective, Mr. Hall selectedtwo years during w~hich:1 another Governmentwere in office. He could only select twoyears from at period before the Mitchell-Latham Government if he desired to getyears in which another Government were iiipower, because lie could not select two yearssubsequent to the AMitebell-Lathana Govern-ment as two years have not elapsed sincethat Administration went out of office.

Hon. G. Fraser: And if you get the in-formation you desire, how much better oftwill you he?

Hon. C. H. WLITTENOOM: At any rate,I hope wve shall get the information we de-sire and with that object in view, I supportthe mIotioni.

HON. SIR EDWARD WITTENOOK(North) [5.5 5] : While I. did not think thereply of the Chief Secretary to Mr. Hall'sspeech was justified, .1 regarded it as mostsarcastic and amusing. I do not know wvberehis speech originated, whether in the ChiefSecretary's fertile brain or otherwvise. Iconsidered his speech extremely amnusing andI was rather interested to think that he wasable to make a most amiusing incident out ofa harmless reference by M~r. Hall. I cannotsee any harin in asking for the informationdesired by Air. Hall and I hope we shall getsome particulars throwing light on thin sub-ject. When I heard Sir Charles Nathan say-that Mr. Hall had charged a person 1.21/ percent. on a mortgage-

The PRESIDEFNT: Order! The bon..member is making a mistake.

Hon. Sir EDWARD WITTENOOM:What mistake?

[13 SEPTMIIER, 1033.] 849

Lion. J. J. Holmies: Mr. Moore maide thatstatemenit.

lion. Sir EDWARD) WITiTENt)OM: Idiii ,orrV I miade that mnistake.

H-on. T. Moore: I would never be foolisheniough to pay it.

lion. R. G. Moore: Sir Edward Witte-nooni had better make it idear which"Mo%[ore" mnade the A.ateiuent.

Hon. Sir EDWARD WITTENOOM:When I heard Mr. I. Mloore say that Mlr.Hall had charged a manl 121/_ per cent, onan mortgaige, I natu rally tonelutded thlit Mr.Hall wvas a uisurer--

Hon. T. Moore: Which hie is.Tlon. Sir EDWARD WVITTEjNOOM1: _No

one could comle to anyv (otherP viiclisioii. I-twh]enl I beard Mri. Halls ex planation, I Con-Eideredl that lie was entitled to great credit.,

Hion. T. Moore: On thle strength of theineorrect statements lie mrade.

Hon Sir EDWARD WVITTENOOM:Thalit is y-our opinion.

lon. T. Moore: I know it. and can proveit.

Rion. Sir EDWARD WVITTENOOM: Itseems that the manl befriended was, in thehion. miember's opinion, to say* the least ofit, unpopular and even untrurtworthy. Hestated that neither the bank, Mr. Troy, norMr. Moor-

Hon. T. Moore: I aol no money lender.Honl. Sir EDWARD WITTENOOMI: I

do not say that the hon. member is.Hon. T. Moore: Nor amn I , usurer.The PRESIDENT: Order! Hon. mnem-

hers must allow Sir Edward Vittenoom toproceed.

Hon. Sir EDWARD WITTENOOIM: Iwould not like to see Mr. T. Moore in thatposition, by any means. If the statementthat neither the banks, nor MrT. Troy nor Mr.Moore would help the individual concernedis correct, then Mr. Hall took a great riskin helping the individual, especially as Mr.Hall wvas advancing money that he had toborrow from the. bak at q per sent.

Honl. T. Moore. On the man's own pro-perty; on his own deeds.

Trhe PRESIDENT: Order!H-on. Sir EDWVARI) W TTFEN(OM: I

think 'Mr. Halrs action iii cha~rging the in .1141: per cent, for the accommnodation viesexceeding-ly reasonable, because he had tcrisk his borrowed mooney and stood th'2-vhanve of never sceinL his advance ag~ain. ifthe mian he assisted was as represented. I

understand Mr. If-tall's confidence iwa notinsplared as hie receive(d his money backagain.

lIon. J. -Nicholson: :I think lie had writtenoff £300.

Hall..I'.%[oore: lir. Hall agreed to dis-rorge that amount rather than face publi-city.

[Ion. \V*. J. Mann: Be fair.H-ll. TI. AMoore: 1 shall show vou some-

thing- outside.1-ton. IV. J. Mann : That hor.Yline business

agoain.

Hon. Sir EDWARD WITTENOOM1:How nin y members of this House wouldhave agreed to take the risk of advancingthe mloney' for 4 / per cent, after borrowingit at 8 per cent? I consider that Mr. Halldeserves great credit for assisting a manwho was distrusted by' so many persons, butwho iuwtitied thle eonfidence placed in him.To refer to the motion before members, Ibieli eve tha t Ministers should travel aboutthe country in order to ascertain what isgo0ingt onl.

Hon. T. Moore: Labour members do so.Hon. Sir EDWARD WITTENOOM:

Having had some M-Ninisterial experience,I. know that, as a rule, the travel.ling allowances paid-it used to be 25s.a (lay; I do not know what rate ispaid in these (lays-is not too Imuch inview of what 'Ministers have to (10. Wher-ever a Minister of thle Crown goes, he hasto iiueet people arid, to say, the least of it,he has to be friendly. By the time hie getsback to his car, there is very little of his2.5s. left.

Hon. G. IV. Miles: That applies to someof them.

Ron. SIR EDWARD WITTENOOM:When I was Agent General in London, Iknow that I did not return with much ofmy allowance. As for 'Ministers travellingabout, I bold that the Premier, especiallywhen lie is also the Treasurer, should notleave the city very often. He should heavailable and should be able to decide inat-ters at once. He should be almost continu-ally in his office, and therefore alwaysaccessible. How would a business like Foy& Gibson's get on if the chief managerwere away half his time?

Honl. C. B. Williams: He has just beenaway around the world.

Hon. G. W. Miles: And the firm has arecord of his expenses.

8150 [COUNCIL.]

Ifon. 81it EDIWAR 1) \V.IT'I' NOOM : wg's astoniisiiedl that 3Mr% Moore Ahould haveT'hc Premier and Treasurer is the supremeinanager of tile State and should be thereto say yes or no onl the spot, instead of in-quirers having to go to at deputy' who, whilelie may know the business, cannot give adefinite answer, and has to content himselfwith the announeenient that the Premierwill be back onl M.\onday. The PremierShould bea there to answer questions anddecide upon bulsin~ess, hut as to other 3m-isters goinig about, I. thlink it (lops at greatdeal of good. Thne miotion Ibefore us is amatter of taste.

lion. E. 11. Gra'v: Of had taste.[10o1. Slit I)W I)WI'PTENOOM:

lIt is at tnest ion for wvhoever is the jnuigbot, taste. .1 sluall lie pleased to hear anyin formnation ile Chief SecretarY maiy hlaveto give uts. I do not think Mr. Hill is toblame roy. having brought forward themotion, alIthough perh aps his reference toa M %inister ill another place was no morejulstifiedl than was the snrcagtie reply givenby the Chief Secretary.

HON. A. THOMSON[6.2] : Oi the litnes suggestedI miove ;in atmendment-

(South-East)by -Mr. 1 [Whnes,

Th'lat :111 icorids afte ' tit "' iln lit : ofpalragaph~ (i, hec struc-k mitt, gld tile followinginserted ill hiell :-''last tiiV t.t,.carvs the Col-li r Gore rin len t, antd t ie the, 'ears tilho"Mit -'hell G overn 'tie VIAt, -vre ill oli cc.

Iregret thle attack made upo AiMr. Tlail, forI realise the Pecumliar position hie was in. Asection of his constitulents wee aiskiiig for

certainl information anid, in effect, hie wvas

charged wvith being not game to ask thequestion in the House. When he dlid ask thequestion, the information wvas irefused, or hewas told it was not available. Then, inaccordance with the Standing Orders,' hesubmitted it in thle form, of the ]notion be-fore us. I dieplore very much the attack Air.Hall made oil a Minister in another place,and probably nobody regrets it more thlanthe liton. member himself. Also ] regret thecontribution to the debate made by the ChiefSecretary' although it was a masterpiece ofsatire and ridicule. There is nothing morehurtful to a man in a public position thanto be held tip to ridicule, which is a far moreeffective weapon than a bald statement inreply. A., I say, I was very sorry the 31ii-ister should have replied as he dlid- Thenwe had Mr. T. N'loore bringing in at matter,entirely outside the scope of the motion. I

Itrotgiht in what was purely a personalnmtteir.

lio['. Tf Moore: It wvas to show the char-neter of' th I ic a matwho made the oh a rzagainst the Ki1i6tcr for Lands.

lion. A. THOMSON: It4 is not usual forMNr. M[oore to adopt the attitude he did onthis occ-asion. I do not condone Mrx. Hail'sa thick onl a Minister in another place, any

lre than I condone thle attack made by 31r.Mioore upion Mr. Rll. It wouid be deplor-able if it 3inister were not able to go to hiscivil fa nil du ring the iveek-end, but therewas no justification whatever for 'Mr.Moore's birinlgitig in at matter entirelyforigni to tile miotion,. All members of Par-Iiaimeat ate frequeuitlv approached by thoseof t heir constituents who may be in financialdifficulties. Quite often it is a request to,back a1 constituent it the bank. I have hadIlet collie to Inclvi 1th miost ridiculous pro-posals.

lion. T. Aloore: To which you have notacceded.

lon. A. THORSON: No, I dlid not do asMr.Iailldid. Mr. Hall materially helped

his (oiistittulit. and for that lie has bieen heldill to contemlpt in this House. On the figuresMr. flil has shown tie relating to thetransaction, r say 21It. Hall acted mostgencroulslY to the nut n whom he assisted. Itis iii large measure owing- to Mr. Hall'sassisltalnce that that mili is still on his pro-pieltv. Als, ili loenntents I have seendefi nitely prove that wile I.0£,725 was cowi 'gto M.\r. Hall hy tine tanner, Mr. Hlaillnvecpted £1,325 in full payment; in otherwords, -Mr. Hll agreed to write off £400.V'et r.Moore would have us believe thatMr. 111,11 acted as, a usurer, taking advantageof it poor- utnfortuntate farmer. I say that,,so far front being reviled, M1\r. Hall shouldle comnnded for his action. What I objectto is the fact that anl attack was made uponMr. Hall and tile eatse was mnisrepresented.

lfeol. T. Mloore: By %fr. Hall, yes.Ilon. A. THOMSON: No, not by Mr.

[tall. Thte piublic are omil 'v too willing to he-lieve ill or a public manl, a ad inisrepresemita-lion travels so fast that it cannot he over-taken. So I regret that 'Mr. Moore shouldlive held up Mr. H-all to colntempt in the

view of the public.IrotI. .1. J. Holmes: And it hadl nothing,

to do with tile ease.F[n ii. .X\. T 1 IM ASON : Notlin whatever.

I havte 2re-n t -vinpatily with Mfr. ]fall in hi;

[13 SErIMER, 1933.] 8151

desire to obtain the information asked for.Ministers of the Crown who go out into thecountry during week-ends visiting their con-stituents are only doing their duty andtherefore are fuli v entitled to travel in coi-fort. Frequently Mlinisters give up tlteirwveek-ends to counryr trips when they wouldmuch prefer to stay at home with their wivesand families. I do not object to a Ministertravelling in comfort while he does itin the interests of the people, nor do Ithink Mr. Hall would object either; but inview of the fact that the hon. member willsoon have to face an election I think hehad no other course open to him than tosubmit the question he did, for had he notdone so hie would have been held up toridicule hy thosie antagonistic to him.Mlembers, I an, ready' to believe, have nodesire to embarrass the Government, butsince we are supposed to be the custodiansof the public purse we should be giventhe information asked for. I am sure itwould open the eyes of the public. Letme explain: Some of my electors were liphere during the week, and I was amazedat their asking me which was my particu-lar room in Parliament House. Manypeople are under the impression that inem-hers have their meals free, that the bar isfree, and that each mnember has a eosy

little room somewhere in ParliamentH-ouse. Therefore I think the informationasked for by the motion would serve todisabuse the public mind of many miscon-ceptions regarding members and Ministers.My amendment, if agreed to, will give usthe figures for the last three years of theprevious Collier Government, and the threeyears of the iMitchell Government.

Hon. T. Moore: Three years before thedepression, and three years during the de-pression.

Sitting suspended fromn 6.15 to 7.30 p.m.

Hon. A. THOMSON: Before tea, when Iwas speaking, Mr. TI. Moore made an in-terjection concerning the previous occu-pants of the Treasury bench.

Hon. T. Moore: They did some travel-ling, too

Hon. A. THOMSON: I approved of thattravelling. I have received from LabomMinisters, when they have come to my elec-torate, every courtesy and consideration. Iam speaking in no way antagonistic to anyMinister. During the tea adjournment, Mr.

11all showed me some figures relative to thestaemient made by Mr. T. Moore. Fromwh'lat -t know of h'ii I feel sure that Mr.Moore will alter art apology when he hasperused that statement.

lion. T. '.o[ore: I will tell the truth.Hon. A. THOMSON: I am glad to hear

that. If the bon. member does, I am surean apology will lie due from him to Mr.flall.

Hon. T. Moore: That is absolutely tin-neeessary.

Hon . A. THOMSON: In view of thestatement that has been made, an apolog]should be tendered to the lion, member.It was alleged that Mr. Hall had chargeda certain farmer 121/_ per cent, intereston a loan. One would assume from thestatement that this was a straight-out loanto the farmer. Mr. Hall has submitted tome voluminous accounts covering theperiod from 1627 to 1932. These showthat Mr. Hall wvas acting more generouslyto the farmer than is seen in the ease ofclients of the Tndustries Assistance Board.The bon. member paid for the super.,clearing, dam sinking, dentist's expenses,land rents, road board rates, the grocersand storekeeper's bills, the butcher's bill,and oven the newspaper account. Mr. Hallhas been held up as one wvho is not fit toassociate with hon. members on the groundthat he has been a usurer. The facts arethat he advanced to the farmer in question£3,108, obtained from his bank, whichcharged him interest on the money. Thetotal interest charged by the hon. mem-ber to the farmer, Mr. M aloney, was £77711s. 2d. The bank charge amounted to£382 15S. 8d. The amount thereforecharged by Mr. Hall to Mr. Maloney forthe various advances made between 1927and 1930, was £394 15. 6d. That is theamount of interest he was entitled to chargeunder the agreement prepared by the soli-citor in Geraldton, who induced Mr. Hallto render this financial assistance. I would]not have advanced the various amiounts Mr.Hall advanced in a ease of tbis sort, and wet-nursed this farmer as he dlid. If a selectcommittee were to inquire into the relativepositions of the two persons, and into thequestion of who wvas the aggressor, I feelsure they would find that Mir. Hall had beenmore than generous in his, treatment of theindividual in question. From 6th April1927, to 20th August, 1032, Mr. Hall wasentitled, in accordance with his agreement,

[COUNCILI1

to charge for tile advances hie hand made£394 15s. 6d., lbecause the batik charge was£E382 15s. S3d. The actual amount Mr. Hallreceived during that period, for all his w-orryand trouble wvas only £04 15s. 6d. To clearhimself and I-et out of a transaction whichwas causing him a great deal of worry aidtrouble, he wrote off £300.

Hon. T. Mloore: After the city solicitorslad got busy and prolbcd into thec matter.

Holl. A. THOMSON: I have a letter herewvlie wa '~s received boy Mr. ]-fall fronm hissolicitor. It says-

Re Maloney: We have received a letter fromMessrs. Dwyer, Durack, & Dnnphy confirmingtile arrangement that a meeting between your-self and Mr. Maloney should take place onTuesday, the 11th proximno. They suggest thatthe mncctinV should be entirely private betweenyou and Mr. Maloiney, and that neither party'ssolicitors should appear. We think this is asuitable arrangement, and we shall be gladif you will let us know wlhether it will be con-venlient for you to meet Mr. Maloney at 2 p.m.onl the 11th Jproxilao in order that I 'nay in-form his solicitors.

Vhuis thle city solicitors who, we are told,compelled the hot,. nmenmber to disglorgt £:300,if that is the correct term, to usc-

* lon. T. Moore: It is thle correct term.Hon. A. THOMLSON: It is not thle cor-

rect. term. I am sorr.N' tile hall. member ispersisting iII anl attituide which is so grosslyunfair, and so foreign to what I have alwa vsfound in himc in other directions. This blood-sucking, blood-thirsty legislator has donethings which nei them' Alm. Moor 00 no1r mnanlother memnbers of thle House wvould havedone to carryv onl this fa ruler, who is onl hisfarmin to-day by virtue of the assista ncegiven to him bY the hon. member!

Hon. T. Moore: He is on his farnt be-cause lie wvas rescued fromi the hands of thehon. niember.

The PRESIDENT: Order!Hon. A. THOMSON: I am sorry for that

iterjection, especially in view of thie lettersI have here, thle sta temient I have read fromMr. Hall's solicitors, aniid inl view of thlefigures 11 have, which can be yenified by Mr.Moore if hel will only v he fair- enough tol iii-speet them. In retu rn for all tile worrY andtrouble occasioned to him, Mr. Hall has re-cived from the farmier over a period of

five years ronly £94 15s;. 6d. I reg-ret thledehate hals taken this trend. When I haedthne honour to become a mnembier of thisHouse. I thought I was gtrvw aroinongt menwho did Riot descend to tactics that are some-

times adopted in another place, namely, bymeans of side-issues to bring in somethingthat is foreign to the subject matter of thedebate, and may possibly hold up to ridiculesome hon. member.

Hon. T. Mloore: Show him in his truecolours!

Hon. A. THOM1SON: This may some-times be done with the intention to injure aparticulair member when lie is about to facehis electors. It seems to inc that the attackwhich has been maode upon Mir. Hall hasbeen made with all e'-e to the elections thatwilt take place next May. mole for that re-a-son than any other, in thne hope that a er-tain amount of the mud that has been thrownwvill stick to him. Mlud somietimes does stick.T still hope that Alir. Moore will do as Ihave done and examine these papers, so thatlie may have a knowledge of the other sideof thle question. I do not say hie deliberately'ivent out of his way to misrepresent the factsof thle case.

Holl. TI. Moore: I know all the facts.

Hon. A. THOMSON: The individual inquestion has derived much benefit from w"hatMr. Hall did for him. I canl oly think thatMr. Moore has been misled byv that indivi-dual, and hope yet hie will be fair to hiscolleague in this House by reading the otherside and taiki ng anl imipartial view. I amqgu ite 'viling to hear thle otheCr maia's side.

Honl. T. Moore: You oughlt to.Hon. A. THOMSON: But this is not tine

place to deal with it. I take exception toMr. iNoore's attitude onl this question, for Ido not think his attitude has added to thedignity of thle Council. I commend myamendment to the serious consideration ofthle House.

The PRESIDENT: I take it the her.member wants to move ala amendment asfoltows-

To strike out of the first paragraph of themotion all thle words after ''the,'' in line 3, andsubstitute the words ''last three years of tileCollier C overnnment and the three years theMitchell Goverinment were in ofie1

Hon. A. THOMTSON: That is so, Mr. Pre-sident.

HON. G. W. MLES (North-on amiend-ment) [7.451 :I congratulate Mr. Hall onsubmitting, the motion, though I do notapprove of his attack on Ministers. Per-sounlly I think the debate that took place

[13 SEPmEMEER, 1033.] 853

at v'*: ir tw~o ago wihen we ventilated thematter we are iscussing again at the pre-sent time. was a disgrace to the House.Parliament and the people are entitled tohave the information that is sought. Oilother discussions I heave suggested that two orthree business 'fea should be appointed tore-orgaunise the Government departments.If lbusinessnen had anything to do with asubj1ect sutch as that under discussion, theywould have adopted different methods ofkcepinz on account of Mlinisterial expenses.I alt not speaking about the present or anyother (lovernment, the members of which]told office as representatives of the tax-pay' ers. aind are handling not their ownmioney but that of the people. While Iagree that it is the duty of Ministers to getaround thle country as much as possible, itis also their duty to set an example to therest of tile community in difficult times suchas those we are passing through.' Railwvaymel, have said to mie that wshilec theyhave lbeen, rationed in their work, theirwvages reduced and others have been re-trenched, M1inisters; were not economlising,that they were travelling round as usual inthe M1inisterial coaches instead of using re-served compartments on the trains. it is aduty M.%inisters owe to the people to setan example in the direction of economy.They represent the people, and it is thepeolple's money they are using. The ChiefSee retatirvs statement that it is in]possible toget this informatjon is all balderdash. if itis nlot possible to get it, it is about time thatthe suggestion that I and others have madethat two or- three business men should beappoi7:ted to re-organise the whole of thesyntem was given effect. I hlave no axe torind, nor any Party to protect. Perhaps

there was a good deal more travelling donedluring the period of prosperity. But whyshould there be all this hush? Why arenot thle people entitled to this information?7Surely wve should k-now what the Ministers'movements about thle State are eostin'r thecount". If the information wvere publishedit aulght he anl inducement to Ministers toeconomise alore than they have done in thepast. I support the motion as amended, andhope the inforrmation will be supplied.

Onl motion by Haln. E. H. H. Hall, debatea~djourned.

MOTION-RAILWAYS, CAPITALACCOUNT.

To Inquire by Select Committee

Debate resumed from the 6th Septemberon the following motion by Hon. A.

Tomson-

Thag a select commnittee be appointed to in.quire into and report upon the capital cost ofthe Western Australian Government raiwayswvith at view to reducing the a mount uipon whichthle Commissioner of Railways is expected tofind interest and, running coats, and to makesuch reoenda~nhtions as thle cmmlittee Maydeem desirable to co-ordinate thle differattran sport services :itii enable the railways tomie:t the competition from motor and othertransport.

THE HONORARY MINISTER (Hon.WV. H. Kitson-West) (7.50]: On previousoccasions when miotions of a similar mitur,to this have been submitted, the position ofthe railways has been placed before mem-bers, to show that any proposal for a sub-stantial reduction of the capital account ofthe railways in order that railway chargesmight be reduced, is economically unsound.That was the view of the previous Govern-ment and there is no change in that positionto-day. Any action on the lines suggestedcan only have the effect of sulbsidising theusers of railwvay services at the expense ofthe general taxpayer, as any reduction ofthe capital account of the railways wouldnot relieve the State of the obligation to payinterest on the amount reduced. There isundoubtedly in the railway capital accounta proportion of the asset which is out ofuse or of little value, bunt such a position isinseparable from any large undertaking. Itmust also be remembered that working ex-penses provide the wherewithal to keep theasset up to its original standard.That, sametimes, is overlooked. There isa certain value lost in such assetby' wear and tear, and such loss is requairedto be made -"od in addition to current maini-tenance. so that the full value still remnains.

Hon. A. Thomson: Not necessarily so.The HONORARY MINISTER: It would

be found so speaking generally in regardto our railway services.

Hon. A. Thomson: What about belatedrepairs!

The HONORARY MINTSTER: I willdeal wvifh thit point too. fit the aligenee ofa depropeiafon or renewals fund this is neces-sarv. Onrinz the years 1922 to 1933, the

8534 [COUNCIL.]

auin of £C547,600 has been actually provided Commissioner wh-]o say., tha t, "In view of'from working expenses in relaying of lines

andthi poicy is being continued. Provi-sion is to he made in the Estimates for atfurther £53,000 for this work. In respect torolling stock, the sumt of £230,000 was pro-vided from wvorking expenses fromt 1901 to1908 for the replacement of locomotives and(the sumn of £58,000 w~as also written offagainst working expenses onl account of roll-ing stock that was scrapped. Quite a largecnumber of trucks have had then' carry'ingcapacity increased and other improvemcentsmade at at cost of £117,000 apart altogetherfrom ordinr ml v iaintenance, :althougitcharged to working- expenses. Extinguish-men t of the capital asset other tha n linessuch as Lake Clifton andl White Hope, theabandconed portion of the capital of whichwas written out of railway accounts undertile authority of Parliament, haove been madegood from working expenses. It must alslbe remembered that many miles of r"ikvaywere built at a cost to the State far la-lowvthe present day cost. The object of the bon.member is to enable the Commissionter toreduce railway charges particularly to tileprimary producer, and in this lie is stronglysupported by Mr. Wittenoorn who said, "In anutshell, 'Mr. Thomson's motion means thatthe primary producers are shouldering toogreat a proportion of the interest onl capi-tal involved in our rail way system, whichmust be written down. He is quite right."'From this point of view the report of theCommissioner for Railways for the y earended June 30th last makes very interestingreading. Onl page 2 of the report the capi-tal account is shown ats £24,987,332 and thetotal interest chiargc(] for the year was£C996,233. In the same period, the net rev-enue or balance of earnings over workingexpenses was £820,552. This of course %viainadequate to meet the interest bill of£096,233 and therefore the general taxpayerhad to find £175,681 to adjust the interestbill. The loss for the year was therefore£175,681 as against a loss of £190,000 in thepireviotus ,Year. In other wvords there was anlimpjrovemuen t last Year of £14,388, notwith-standing an increased interest bill of £7,060.On page 31 of the Commissioner's report, theaverage rate of interest for the Year is stated,at 4.1006 per cent, as against 4.1145 percent, for the year 1931-32. On page 5 ofthe report it is stated that the percentagereturn of net revenue to capital was 3.29,the highest since 1028. mnd I tagrIee with the

thle stressful times which all rail way syateinsin the world are experiencing, these resultscannot he considered as unsatisfactory.-

Hoji. A. Thomson: The Midland Railwayshowed a profit and paid a dividend.

The HONORARY MILNISTER: I1 thehot,. member will look into the figure. liewill admit that the returns of the Govern-mient in ilwa 'vs compare well with t hose ofthe Midland Railway, that is, from the pointof view of actual railway earnings.

Hon. T. Moore: The -Midland RailwayCompan 'y has less indebtedness.

The 'HONORARY MNINTSTER : Wetherefore find from the report that the usersof thie railwva vs are not meeting- in fill] 'theinterest charges i nvolved, A simple calcu-lation shows that the operation of the rail-ways last year did not meet interest onl apl-

proulvte £410If2.000 of capital or about17prcent. ot the total capital. H-ow then

canl it be said that any section of the cont-mnunity is shouldering too great a propor'-tion of the interest on canpital involved. Onthe experience of last year, it wvould bienecessary to reduce the capital account by£4,392,000 to just make ends meet, but toaccomplish what 31r. Thomson desires, itwould be necessary to go further. Assta-ing that the capital was reduced] by a third,the saving in interest would be £332,000, andafter deducting the loss of last year's opera-tions of £176,000, it would leave £156,000for reduction in freights equal to .5.32 p~ercent, of the earnings of last year. and it adepreciation fund is also to lie ervatIed assuggested by Mr. Thomson the amount avail-able would lie reduced still further. So thatif the capital was reduced by 33, per cent.the relief in freights would be infinitesinial.As regards all losses being mande g-oodby the primary producer, the returnfromt which the hon. member quoted isworthy of deep thought. Take for example,the freight oil fertiliser, £62,000, which Mr.Thomson stated returned the railways£662,000 in wheat freights. Admittedly they,are big figuires, but they are only a portionof the picture, and it is well to consider allthe facts. It will be seen that the averagereturn from all traffic per ton mile was1.49d. and at this rate the railways lost£175,000. It is therefore apparent that traf-fic carried at less than 1.49d. was not pro-fitable. Nowv turn to those twvo items; fer-

[13 .SEvrt;miER, 1.933.]85

tiliser returned only -l7rd. fliI4 wheali 1 .01d1.per tonri ile.

lion. A, Thomson : That is Ohe only timethe railways pay'whein I hey anne hauling', fill]loadt

The HONORARY NINISTER: Thesetwo commodities represented 56 per cent, ofthe toil mileage 11ar1ied, so it eannot hein'aitithat the produeri inl this State is harsi4r1lvtreated in railway freights. In fact, thlerates onl wheat and fertiliser are generailylower in Wes9tern A ustralia than in anlYother State.

ion. A. Thomson : What abouit Ne-w Zri-land?

The .14ONORAR V MINISTERI: I thinkour farmers are treated as well as, if notbetter than those of Y,\ew Zealand. On pageO) of the Commissioner's report will. he foundanother very instrustive return as follows-

'Pie average recipt per ton mile was 1.49d.,anld the r-oalmnoities which returned less thanthis aLverage represented 88.80 per cent. ofthe work performed. ibd these coauinoitiesbeen trilled upon -to pay the average rate pertoil mile, the increased earnings would hareainiowited to £4917,989.. ma~de uip as follows:-

Local eoal -28,725,853 toa i rlesat :l38 .. 3 7,566

Tfay, -straw, and] chutff-6,6.0ton mliles; at .19d. i .249

Wlreat-157.53.3,7-tt tonl miles a t.48d. - . -. 315,067

'ertiliser-3 I736.551 tonl rkiles at

C(l 3,9:t7,r50

7 tonl m1iles at.Ollll. . - 4, 2 ,27

£C49 7.9 S9

Fromr the foregoilig i-t will lie seen thlrt, thle,carriage of priiiiary prodluvts Ihis a big effect(in rarilw:iv finances.

Inlie of all tile cirennlistances, the primary

producers anid miore pa vt-ic-ida ny the wheatg-owers of this State have ver y little to com-plin albout as regards the freights chlargedl1)y the Railway Department. Generallyspeakinz the lion. ineniber follo-wed similarhles9 to those of Previous; occaIsions. butraised onle or two nevw poinlts which call forconsidleration and explanation. When deal-ing with tile question of motor competitionw ith thle railways, lie quotedl correspondencebetween a cn-icr ancl the Connria sioner andla-ted that he quoted the letters in order to

show that those miotor people were prepii'edto mneet thle raulrvys anrd acet rr feeders forthem. The carrier had put up ai proposition

to hire one 5-ton truck and one S-wan vanfor his exclusive use between Perth andKatainning, which proposal the Commis-sioner hadl turned down,

Honr. A. Thomson: Thatsstni nc-istenee in Southl Australia. and -New SouthWales

The }IOXORAIIY MINISTER : Mr.Thlonison saiid there wats nothing u~nusualabout the schemie, because it was alctuallyopertinig iii New South \Vales and the manthought there was an op)portunrity to followA similar course here, T assume 3Lfr. Thom-Sonl is oC the opinion the proposal shouldhave beetn agreed to, and I therefore proposeto give the House a little more informationthan was supplied by him, together with theviewpointl of the Conunmissioner.

Hon. J. J. 1folines: 'Would that mian haveearried his own goodIs or anybody's goods?

The HONOlIARY MINKISTER -Any-hrod'v's goods.

Uon. A. Thomson: What he mntenuied to;io was to cut out carting onl the road. Hewould have delivered the goods to the %-anand taken delivery of themn at the van inlPerth.

The HONOR-ANY 3flNL 'STER: First ofaill [ imist quote thle letter which 'Mr. Thomn-son stated had been seat to the Conmnis-siler-

Will ' %til k iiisl oernsider tile iiiatl er of hiriingrite for nut- Year ontV 5-ton ti-tick and one 8-toa 1-a11. I wouldd reruire thorn to bxe hauledfromi P'erthr to lKatanning twice weely withtie optitot ofi tounig lrrfli ivar s. Loading[Ind uillorolig these trucks, toI be donle h0Y ray-self our onplo-vee. arid all responsibility' takenlry In(,. I Sh11ill eSleeri it a. favyour if you willkiiirl advise rie if youi are prepared to eon-si, Icr thi % matter arid let are knlow ait your1:irlk-~st r~ou'-chrienece thle char11ge per a1nni. 17ill prepared to Par £1.500 for tire above Coni-

tsirernlomi.

The Coiriss:ione- replied to tire carrier intire term.-, quoted 1, y. 21.t. Thomson. I havethle following. Statement fronm the Goinmis-siozier-

The proposanm iurd by onu of the lion. mem-her's constituents to permit him to hire two,wvagons to he harlil hetwen Perth and Satan-fling coudl not hie tigreed to for the followingrea1sonls:-

(a) 'lTe goods whic-h would he catiered forwould lie those onl whi-li tire dlepartment ob-tain their hest freights, viz., "Q' 1st, 'Nd.turd :lrd classe.

(b) 'lie Railwa ,- Deparrtmnent emplo 'y c-er-taint staff wrho load and unload andl give dle-livery of thlese goods. If agreed to, it would

8515

'COUNCIL.]

certainly mean the staff would have to be re-dLuced a# Katanniug.

(C) If granted to one town, it certainlyWould have to have general application, andwould mean a genera] reduction in staff through-o)ut the system all for the benefit of one per-son in eaIch town.

(d) By granting the hiring of trucks, whichiwould haive ito be at reduced charges to ensurethe applicant making a profit, it would reducethe railway earnings considerably and, asstaited previously, only the paying lines wouldconic in the amibit of the hirer. This wouldof necessity mean that the rates oii the non-paying commnodities would have to be in-creased . In view of the lowr prices which arebeinig experieinced by time primary producers, itdoes not seemn reasonable that to benefit a few,these people should he penalised to grant suchbenefit.

(e) Railway rates are framned oil thme hasisof whatL the particular commodity can reason-abl 'i~pay, Whichl enables low freights on prinm-ary prodlucts and other lines for which theCommisionecr of Railways, as a coninnon car-nr . is bound to provide transportation.

(f) In1 fine, the granting of the concession-isked for would only mean licensing certainpersons to compete in the carrragc of the bestportion of railway traffic, in a similar mannerto which the motors are now doing, and at thmes~ane time providing themn with facilities todo it. In no way would it alleviate the pire-sent i-cxed position of competition against therailways.

The Coimnissioner added-

It may be mentioned that the letter makesnPo mention of £1,500 per annum, nor that theseVrvice he twice weekly , as stated in the lettera1~ptvwinig iii ''Elnsard."

I-Ion. A.. Thomson: I am sorry the letter-was not correct. I muerely quoted from theletter submitted. to me.

The HONORARY M1iINISTER : My in-formation is entirely different from Mr.Thiomson's. I caused a specific wire to-bhe.sent to thie New South Wales Railway De-partment. as follows-

Itepir illnueiliteir 11y Wire if your Coimlis-ceioner has ever agreid to his. goods vehiclesbeing hired to miember of public or carrierfor purpose of conveying goods point to poinit.If so will app~recinte basis of clinrge..

This is the reply I received--

Inl reference to your wire ro hire of goodsvehicles. It is not thle practice to hire vehiclescarriage general goods this State.

Hon. A- Thomson: The New South Wales-wire says it is not the practice to do that. Itdoes not say that it is not done. I read inthe Press somewhere that it was done.

l-Ion. J. J Holnies: In this country a spe-cial train is run if the consignor suppliesgoods in sufficient quantity.

The HONO\"RARY MINISTER: If therehas been an" isolated ease where it has occur-red in New South Wales, as sug-gested byMr-: Thomson, we know nothing of it here;and certainly it is not in accord with generalirailway practice. In view of the informa-tion fronm New South Wales, it is not sur-prising that our Commissioner should statehe was hot prepared to consider anything ofthe kind. When referring to the estimatedcost of the alterations to the Perth-Fre-mantle highway, 'Mr. Thomnson made a corn-1wrison between the receipts fronm motortrallie fees and railway revenue. The esti-ninted coAt of widening and improvements tocertain sections of this highway is approxi-niately £ 20,000 per mnile, but apparently Mr.Thomson is not concerned for the reasonthat the money will he provided from the

2 ' p'-r cenit, that is deducted fronm thetraffic fees that are collected by the Comnis-stoner of Police within the metropolitanares. I'bat mnoney can onily be used forworks which individual municipalities orroad boards could not be ex-pected to finanefrom their owvn funds. Mr. Thomson. when:vferriug to the license fees collected fromthe owners of miotor vehicles, must knowtial, the fees so collected outside of the met-ropolitan area are retained by the localauthorities and used generally for the main-tenance of roads, and that, in addition, thatsource of income is supplemented becauselegislation provides that the money collectedCron- the owners of motor trucks using mainroads is to be expended upon maintenanceof those main roads. Further, the monieylprovided by the Federal Government cannowV be used not only for construction andimprovement, but also for maintenance, ofmain anid arterial roads. Mr. Thomson thenmakes a percentage calculation as betweenthe amount collected by local authoritiesthroug-hout the State, including the Commais-sioner of Police, in one year and the totalamount that has been expended on mainroads. He describes the result as being areturn to the State of 13.6 per cent. as com-pared with 3.29 per cent. afforded by therailways. No such comparison can logicallybe made, because the 3.29 per cent. re-turned by the railways is after provisionhas been ma de by the T rea su ry f or th e main-tenance and upkeep of the railway traC-s,

[13 SEPTEMBER, 1933.] q57

roling stock etc.; whereas the fees collectedfrom motorists are used by the local authori-ties for maintenanlce purposes only andthere can therefore be no "return to theState" as mentioned bye 31r. Thomson.The hon. member's calculation is not fair,lbecause no matter where the moneyv comesfrom, it is all spent onl the road, and thusthere would not be any monetary- return tothe State Government. After all said anddone, an enormous amount of public capi .-tal is invested in our ra ilway systemn, andwhilst the railways were built for the pill--pose of developing this country, it is hardlyfair that when the country has been openedup and roads builIt for further d evelop-meat work, those roads should be used byvcertain individuals renlly at the expense ofthe railway's. That is a phase ot thle p)osi-tion to whiuch we sh~all hanve to live seriousconsideration, a ad in the near futre i too.I am only desirous of pointing out that thereis really no comparison sucht as that sug-gested by the lion, member. Thie 3.29 percent, which is returned by the Railway De-partmniit is after all woringi' expenses havebeen pai'1, including maintena ne of trucksand rolling stock and all that kind of tinglin proper working condition to the best ofour ability. This also replies g-eimenihly toMr. Thomson's other liercenrage calcula-tions. The lion. member referred to earriiersin the countr 'y havingl to pay- higher licensefees than carriers in the nmetropol itan a rca.He instanced the fact that in the nietropoli-tan area carriers who own motor truckis arneprovided with good roads anmd arec not ie-quired to pay' special license fees for- theright to use, for instanee, the Perth-Frc-mantle-road. Iii this connection it is a factthat in other States-with thle exception ofVictoria, where special legislation exists forthe co-ordination and, I believe, within rea-son for the elimination of competitive trans-port services-provision is made for exelhp-tions. These exemptions apply' to city' areasand to areas within a radius of eveny town:and I think that is only reasonable, becauseit is within suec, areas ilit vehicles a me usedfor the purpose of delivering goods; thatis, goods sold by retailers to customers. Ican understand the difference pointed outhy the hon. member between the country andthe metropolitan area. These and mianyother matters relating to the gencial conflictof interest between the railway service aiidother means of transport have not been

overlooked by the Government; and I thinkthe hon. member knows, or has seen it puli-lished quite recently, that the Governmentintend to give consideration to that phaseof the question.

Hon. A. Thomson: That is why I wvalta select committee, to have these featuressubmitted to it.

The HO.NOR1%nR MINISTER: It is theintention of the Government to establish attransport board somewhat onl the lines ofboards existing already in one and another ofthe Eastern States. I would suggest to thehon. member that if hoe is desirous of ha v-in- a select committee to inquire in to mna -ters of this kind(, a more a ppropriate timefor- the appointment of such at commniitteewould be when that legislation is broughtdown. Io my p)crsonal opinion, this ques-tion is really one for transport exlptrts.

Hon. A. Thomson: If there is at selectcommittee, your experts would submnit theirevidence to the committee.

The HONORARY MINISTER : 1 do sei-ously sugglest that if the lion,. member is keenon having, a select committee for the pur-pose of considering questions of this kind,the appropriate time for the select committeeto functi on would be when that legislationcomes down.

Hon. A. Thomson: TIhc trouble is we arehound by thle leg-islation submitted to us.

The HONORARY MINISTER: Notnecessarily at all. This House is not boundby any legislation submitted to it.

Hon. J. J. Holmes: WXe were not boundby the assessment Bill, were we?

Thle IHONORAIRY MINISTER: It seemsto ine that Mr. Thomson's motion could bedivided into three parts. In the first place,it refers to a select committee to be ap-pointed to inquire and report upon the capi-tal cost of the railways. I suggest there isno need for a committee to inquire into that,because all the facts can be obtained fromthe report of the Commissioner of Railways,which is on the Table of the House. Thesecond Part refers to an inquiry regardingthe reduction of the amount upon which theCommissioner of Railways is expected t~ofind interest and to provide running costs.To. view of the statements I have made thisevening, there is no necessity for a selectcommittee to investigate that phase.

Hon. A. Thomson: Many railway men,think there is.

LCOUNCIL. ]

The HONORARY M1INISTER: It doesnot matter whether we reduce the capital ornot: we still have to find the interest on thewhole of the capital involved. The Govern-inent are not like a private concern. A pri-vate company can write down its capital,and] that mnerely means so much loss to theshareholders in that particular concern. TheState cannot do that. We must meet thewhole of the interest bill, irrespective ofwhat may be done regarding the capital ofthe railways themselves.

[ion. A. Thomson : That could apply toother sections of governmental activity.

Thle HONORARY M1INISTER: Quiteso. If M\r. Thomson has that principle ap-plied to the railways, then other sections ofgovernmental activities would be entitled tothe same consideration.

H-on. A. Thomson: Many have had it.The HONORARY MINISTER: What

position would we reach then? I can mnen-tion off-hiand many concerns where such amove would have favourable results froman ordinary business point of view. Theircapitalisation could be reduced considerably,and the concerns would show much betterreturns on paper than they do to-day. Thatwould not get away f rom the fact that theState, as a State, would still have to findthe whole of the interest charges involved. itdoes not matter whether portion of the in-terest charges are paid by a particular con-cern or by the State as a whole; the totalinterest bill munst be the same. To the extentthat a particular concern was relieved ofpart of its interest charges, the general tax-payer wonld he called upon to foot a largerinterest bill. Then the third part of themotion refers to recommendations that thecommittee may deem deirable hn order toeo-oriinate time different transJport servicesand enable the railways to meet the com-petition from motor and other means oftransport. 1 hare already indicated that, inmny opinion, that phase is one for experts todleal with. I have stated that it is the in-tention of the Government to appoint atransport hoard to co-ordinate all transportser-vices, and that in the near future legisla-tion to enable that to be done will be intro-duced. I suggest that that will he an, appro-priate time for Mr. Thomson to move forthme appointment of a select committee toinquire along (he lines he suggests, and inthle meantime, pending the introduction ofthat legi slat ionai. I must oppose the motion.

HON. E. H. H. HALL (Central)[8.35]: 1 congratulate the Honorary Minis-ter on his excellent and able resume of thleposition. I am convinced that many Of USas laymen indulge in criticism of the Com-missioner of Railways and his staff withouta full knowledge of tile difficulties that con-front the department. While I make (listadmission, I think the Commissioner of Rail--ways and his staff many also hle at fault tosome extent. 1 mention thle latter pointbecausze of incidents that have come withinmy own ken. A couple of mntlis ago onematter w.as brought before may notice. Afarmer outside 'Mullewa, found it necessaryto obtain a truck of chaff froni the WonganHills line. At 'that time, whent the truckarrived ait -Mullewa, heavy rain preventedthe farmuer fromj reaching time township), andit was somne days before lie could make thetrip. When he arrived at the station yardto unload the truck, he found that, owin~g tothe delay that had taken place, the Railway'Department had levied a charge of £-3against him for demuar rage. He nsad mieto see the Chief Traffic Manager when I re-turned to the city, with a v-iew to guetting-the charge waivedl. I was received vrlcourteously at the Railway Department andlthe Chief Traffic Manager promised to gointo thle subject. That was seone weeks ago,and I amn still awaiting advice about thlematter. Even if a reduction of 50 per cent.ware agreed to, it would mean a great dealto that moan. That is juist a small mnatter,hut it is such smiall things thant lead to dis-satisfaction, and thle committee cou ld inves-tigate that phase, if 'Mr. Thonison's motionwere agreed to. I refer to -the latter partof the motion because I do not favour thefirst part. What would he the attitude ofan ordinary business firm in dealing withsuch a point?! I will be supported by thosewho have had dealings with thle RailwayDepartment whenm I say that the demnurragequestion is a burning one. Merchants andothers complain that that chlarge is unjust,and they also complain about the arbitrary'manner in which the charge is implosed. itwould be too nuelh to expect from thme rail-ways as they are run now, hut T think anordinary business Grami would have dealtwith the incident I referred to in a ipleway. I often pass through Mullewa and Ihave noticed that there is a fair sized shedthere, with plenty of roomn. If that truckof chaff had been unloaded into thle shed]by the ordinary railway staff, and a chairge

[13 SEPTEMBER, 1933.185

of 10s. levied againlst thle farmer, what a1differenat feeling- would have been created be-rwveen the department and the farmer. In-stead of that, the farmer is dissatisfied be-cause of thle chiarge of:3~ that hie regardsUs Un3U8t. 'Clio department, of course, Stl\that they are- governed by regulations . whit-lam)ust be enlforced. Probably a comimittee af'lavtneit could investigate a matter- like thatand mak-e suggestions that would provide areniedy. We hav-e heard about business meniin this Chamber. I ana sur~e -Mr. Holmes willnot Inind it I1 mention the fa:10tchat 11auilyear ago be(. occupied the position (if Coin-tuissiotier of, Railwatvs.

lion. -. -J, 1-lolna1cs: I was Minlister tot,and Commissionter of, Ranilwaiys.

lion. I1K.. 11. H. ALL: -1 r. Holmes, withtho, experience lie has hadl (ohf o na liv activ-itn-s in this Statc. igiht well be asked toaccept a seaL Onl the committee.

lion. :1. J1. I-klnv-s: No.

Mon . L { 11 HALL: 'Just Io show thatatien who at-c considered as laytnen i-all teachthose who baye mnade ai study of their par-fiitular saiece or activity* , Il will quote frontan article in "The \Ves-tea-u Trader", which

1have kept sinu- 1927. Ittnan Ile lol-lowitng par-ag-aiph-

Y'et detaiE are disc-oc-red hrv wor-kers ittheir work, lout priciples are discovered gemL-oraliv- bys outsilv-rs. Almost every l)usinchss hasbre-at rerolutionised miore hy outsiders than. bythe. people iside the work. Looka at the fol-lowig examlples:-

W hitnOV, Of thle rOttota gitl, %%a;s not in 9Lrotten butsitiess. lie hanteer seen a. cottotnfield.

Pasteurli]e din) rlaged nittel tiscicnc-e, wastnor a doctor.

Mforso, Who0 ga-c its th1- telegrttpla, wa(s Mportrait painiter. H-e WaLs tiot ait electrician.

Bell, who gavec us the tcelehne, (lid1 notkiaiw anuythintg about electricity. Ito told tnethat had hev becar an electrician, lie would neverliuave ittvented the telephone, because ho wouililatin tho~ught that ltepoub-nl communicationwa'i ttaposildt-. Bell was a professor of eloeti-tionl.

lDesscnier was net a ste-el mran, -.nd yet iherevrohitionised. tite steel lisittess: lie knew noth-itig o)f steel until lie was asked to producea certain claiss of Chetaper Steel. Carnegie, alsoe,kinew 1tilig .11401it Steel, yet lie Made £C60,-(100,0i00 out of it.

Thuere are mai tv other ins;tances. but 1. shtallnot. proceed tur-therL.

I folm. %. - honison: I 'llmat Show- it is twitAatlir -s tilt- experts; that know.

130]

lomi. EK. H. I-1. HALL: At one timec, intlie earliea- days, Sir Edward 'Witteaooi be-caie knaown-

Hon. E. Ri. Harris: %,s ten-foot Ned.

lion. E. H-. H. HALL: I was ntot goingto r-efcr to that. Sit- Edward loined LordForrest'se admainistration in the capacity ofPostiaater-Genei-al for the State. Heheralded his advent by addressing a note tothen postal officials throughout the State in-timating that energetic officers would he re-inuterated corresponadingly, and that theservices of drones would be dispensed with,

Hon]. G. W. Miles: It is a. pity we have noMinisters of that calire to-day.

lion, E. Hf. H, HALL: They had no ap-petit beard in those days. Ministers were incontrol and their words were lawr. WhenSit- Edward's notification was received, weaill sat up atid took notice.

Hon. J. J. Holmies: Were you in the de-partmnent then?

Hoat. X. H. H-. HALL: Yes, and I sur-vived. Suggestions were called for fromofficers who thought that they could showwhere economies could be effected. Thetr-onbie is that in the Government service, asinl the army, we must realise that officers

cannot get bieyond their superiors. I knowoaf one young- fellow wrho thought he could,,fow tow a saving of £C200 could be effectedin his office,. and het wrote out hisi sugges-tions, which he furnished to the postmaster.That official called the young fellow in andasked him what his job was. The youth saidhe bad to receive telegrams, The postmasteratsked him if he knew what his (the post-miaster's) own job was, and the lad repliedthat he was the postmaster ad lad to earn-yout the postmaster's work. The postmasterreplied, "Well, you look after your job andlet mne look after mine." That is the posi-tion that exisits to-dlay. It was my proudexperience to appear before one of thebiggest Royal Commissions tChat has sat inAustralia. That was in Melbourne and washeld to inquire into the defence administra-tion of thle Commonwealth during the war.I n-as onl the Quartermaster General's staff,and 1 am satisfied that if I had stated tothat officer that wihich I gave evidence ofbefore that Commission, I would have been.,if not shot at dawn, at least chargedwith insubordination by the Q.M.0., GeneralStanley' . The three gentlemen who consti-talled the Royall Commnission were laymen.

859

860 [COUNCIL.]

From the evidence they heard they Hon. E. H. H. HALL: The HIlet commit-made recommendations to the Ministerfor Defence (Senator Pearce) whichresulted in Major General Ramaciotti,b)rother to our Chef "Hansard" Reporter,being appointed Inspector General of Ad-ministration throughout the CommonwealthDefence Department. And the appointmentof that gentleman with his staff resulted inthe showing of economies running -into manythousands of pounds. That brings us backto the latter part of Mr. Thomson's motion.in regard to which I think quite a lot ofgood might come out of the appointment ofa select committee to inqluire into railwayadministration. I never have stood for thecompArison we frequently hear made be-tween the Government railways and theMidland Company's railway. Surely that isnot a fair comparison, for nobody wouldcompare a single-line system such as that ofthe Midland Railway Company, runningthrough one of the best districts of WesternAustralia, with at State network of railwayssuch as the Commissioner has to administer.I fail to understand who was responsible forthe delay in meeting the severe competitionfrom motor transport with our suburbanlines. I have spoken to some of the Com-missioner's staff, and they have told me theyblamed Parliament-really, I suppose, theymeant the Government-that the Commis-sioner wranted to lower the fares and somcol the competition, but Parliament wouldnot allow it. I am under the impressionthat members of this Chamber are not quiteclear as to where the Commissioner's powerends and the authority of the Governmentbegins. That is another point upon whichinformation might he elicited by the pro-posed select committee.

Hon. J. J1. Holmes: If the Commissionerdoes not do as he is told, he will not be re-appointed.

Hon. E. H. H. HALL: Perhaps there issomething in that; indeed there may he agood dehal in it. Why do we pay the Com-missioner £2,000 per annum and pride our-selves on having put him beyond the reachof Parliament, to run the railways as theyshould be run, when such is not the case?The sooner the p~osition is clarified, the bet-ter it will be for everybody.

Hon. J. J. Holmes: To give the Commis-sioner full control, you would have to makehis a life appointment.

tee would be worth while, if only from aneducational point of view. I do not know ifmembers have read the splendid raert byProfessor Hytten of South Australia onthis question; it appears in one of themonthly circulars issued by the Bank ofNew South Wales, and I can commend it tomembers, for we could not get a more equit-able statement of facts as between road andrail transport than that put up by the pro-fessor. I am going to refer to the MidlandCompany's line, but am not going to com-pare it with the Governmenit system. I wassecretary of the Traders' Association ofGeraldton, and it was through that associa-tion that the port to port rate was broughtabout. Mr. Povaton put up to the associ-ation a proposition known as the port-to-port railway rate. I am advisedthat it is the cheapest railway rateoperating in the world. From th ini-tiation of that system, notwithstanding thatthere was then a Government subsidisedsteamer running between Fremantle andGeraldton, the Midland Railway Co. securedthe major part of the trade of Geraldton,and from the moment that very cheaprate came into operation, the Midland Rail-way Conipany began to show a profit. Re-menibeing all the disadvantages of the Corn-iassion~r of Railways, if something on those

lines could be obtained I feel sure we shouldhave a better feeling between the depart-inent andl the public-its customers. D~uringthle term of the Mitchell Government it wasfreely stated by the then Ministers that nofewer than 1,000 men of the Railway De-partmnent were dispensed with in 12 months.In a small system like that it seems an in-credible number to be dispensed with. Ifthat number of the rank and file could beput off, was there a corresponding reduc-tion in the higher ranks? There may havebeen, but I am not awvare of it. A few offi-cers were retired on the score of havingreached the retiring- age, and one highly-placed official drawing £E1200 a year retiredonl a pension of Z SOO. But if it was pos-silble to dispense with the services of 1,000mecn within 12 months, one of two thingsmust have obtained: either the service wasdisgracefully overnnanned, or the wholesaledismissals were not justified. A select com-mittee would bring dut quite a lot of in-formation relating to the Commissioner andsonic of his high lY-pla cud officialIs. I wilt.

[13 SEvrnnEe, 1033.]

support the hon. member in the latter partof his motion, hut I cannot support theearlier part.

Oii motion by Hon. G. Fraser, debateadjourned.

House adjourned at 8.55 p.m.

legislative Esemblg,fWednesdaqy, 131h, September, 1933,

iquestions: University of Western Australia,Fremantie t-raffic bridge.............Irwin coal dlep~osits . . .Returned sotilCr5, prefer ....Land rents, fines. ........

Leave of absence .. ..JBill: Vim Bigades Act Amendmnent, it.

Reduction of Rents Ant Continuance, Sn.M ining Act Amendment, returned ..

Motions: Sitting days and hours ..Dairying Inusmtry.............. ...Douglas credit proposals ...........

PAGE8618s1881Sol862862882862865862SOSago

The SPEAKER took thie Chair at 4.30p.m., aind read pryers.

QUESTION -UNIVERSITY orWESTERN AUSTRALIA.

M\r. LAI[BERT aszked the Premnier: 1,Will lie enideavourl to obtainl, before the Isti-mnates are discussed, the balance sheet of thetUniversity of Western A ustra Iia for thme year1931-32? 2, A list of the professors andthme enmoluinents of all kinds drawn by eachprofessor per annium? 3. The namnes of theit~rofessors and time leave granted to eachprofessor duiring the past two years? 4,The inmber of students. and the suibjeetsstudlied 1w fithem

The M1INISTER FOR WORK S (for tilePremier) replied: I to 4, Yes.

QUESTIONS (2) - FR2EMANTLETRAFFIC BRIDGE.

Mfr. SLEEMAN asked the 'Minister for-Works: Do the Government intend to pro-eed with the buildiaw of a newr bridge to

take the place of the old, obsolete, and uin-safe struetuire called a traffic bridge at 'NorthFremantle q

The MINISTER FOR WORKS replied:The matter is receiving consideration.

MAr, TOINKIN asked the Minister forWorks: 1, Do the Government realise thenecessity for constructing a new trafficbridge of modern design to replace the anti-quated structure at North Fremnintle? 2,If so, will tile Government ist this projectamong the most urgent works for early coin-meneinnt?

T he MINISTER, FOR WORKS replied:.1 Yes. 2, The matter is under considera-tion.

QUESTION-IRWIN COAL DEPOSITS.

Mr. PATRICK asked the Premier: 1, Haslie noted that portion of the Royal Comi-missioner's, report OnL coal referring- to theeconomic imp)ortancee of developing the Irwincoal deposits-* 2,- Does hie intend to act onDr. Herman 's suggestioils for asetainingthe valuie of those deposits?

The MINISTER FORl WORKS (for thePremier) replied: 1, Yes. 2, The matterwill receive the consideration of time Govern-mnient.

QUESTION-RETURNED SOLDIERS,PREFERENCE.

M.1r. SEWARD asked the Premier: III viewof the fact that in thme "West Australia n"of the -26th Augu-Lst the Minister for Emn-ploy-nmeot was reported to have stated thatp)reference would not be given to returnedsoldiers by the Government, whtile in an-other column of the same issue the M.iniisterfor Agriculture was reported to have saidthat former Parliaments had given prefer-ence to returned soldiers, and there was iio-thing to stop that promise from being main-tained, wvill he state what is the policy ofthe Government on the question?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS (for thePremnier) replied: There will be 110 altera-tion in the policyv of the Government fromthat applied when previously in office on theqluestion of preference to returned soldiers.A great prepomnderanee of the returned sol-diers are members, of tinions, and the Go-ernument's policy is pjreference to unionists,which it is not anticipated will work to thedetriment of returnied men.

8o1