LiveAction NEreport Full

7/30/2019 LiveAction NEreport Full

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Invetiative Reort or Nebraka

Lawmaker and Ocial

Live Action spRINg 2013

Inhuman:undercover in americas

late-term abortion industry


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live actioninvestigative report for arizona i

Investigation overview

General InformatIon

Location: Abortion and Contracetive

Clinic o Nebraka

1002 W Miion Ave

Bellevue, NE 68005

800-737-3845

htt://www.abortionclinic.or

transcrIpt 1

Date: 12/7/12Time: 8:00 A.M.

our story

Woman i a little over 22 week renant.

transcrIpt 2

Date: 3/28/13Time: 3:30m

our story

Woman i unure o her etation, but about 20

week.

Contents

Clinic Fact sheet ...........................................1

Invetiation Trancrit 1 ............................5

Invetiation Trancrit 2 .........................23


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live actioninvestigative report for arizona 1

Clinic fact sheet

Abortion Clinic: Abortion and Contracetive Clinic o Nebraka

Location: Bellevue, NE

Abortionit: LeRoy Carhart

Hitory: For the ake o brevity, LeRoy Carhart extenive record will be limited

to characteritic examle. Carhart i currently bein invetiated in the

death o Jennier Morbelli, who uered maive internal bleedin ater he

erormed a third-trimeter abortion.1 In 1993, Carhart romied the di-

rector o health o Nebraka that he would bein to adequately rotect hi

atient rom inection and rerain rom aliyin atient record. Carhart

alo areed to to talkin on the hone or allin alee durin abor-

tion.2 In 2001, the Univerity o Nebraka terminated Carhart adjunct

roeorhi when it wa dicovered that he wa donatin the remaino babie he had aborted to their reearch deartment.3 Jut our year

ao, our ormer worker admitted to ain o medical care, abortion

counelin, and recrition even thouh they were untrained; one had

only a hih chool diloma.4

Thee witnee and tetimony rom atient who were coerced into il-

leal, ot-viability abortion romted undercover invetiation by O-

eration Recue into Carhart ractice o aliyin etal ae. Characteriti-

cally, Carhart ultraound technician maniulated the renant invetia-

tor onoram to ive an aarent youner etal ae. The abortion o a

ot-viable baby wa cheduled with Carhart. The clinic did not obtain a

econd hyician conent, a mandated by Kana law, and the abortionwa cheduled or 25 week etation, three week later than an abortion

could leally be erormed in Kana.5

Nebraka state

Law:

An abortion may be erormed at or ater 22 week only i the woman lie

i endanered or i her hyical health i everely comromied. Nebraka

enal code 19.01: A eron commit criminal homicide i he intentionally,

knowinly, recklely, or with criminal nelience caue the death o an

individual.

Federal Law: Born Alive Inant protection Act. Inant born alive ater an abortion are

eron rotected under the law.


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investigative report for arizonalive action2

the InvestIGatIon

Live Action went undercover twice in LeRoy

Carhart inamou Nebraka late-term abor-

tion clinic. Our invetiator aid they heardthat Carhart wa the bet to o to or a late-

term abortion. Ultraound examination eval-

uated them a 22 and 26 week renant, o

Carhart recommended that each invetiator

travel to Maryland, where he could oer abor-

tion on demand u to 27 week.

horrIfIc abortIon procedures

busIness as usual

Carhart ha lon been known to ht hard or

hi rily abortion rocedure. Twice he haone to the sureme Court to demand the

lealization o hi avorite method o artial-

birth abortion, wherein a baby i motly deliv-

ered and then hi kull cruhed and brain vacu-

umed out.6 so Carhart callou direard or

our invetiator babie come a no urrie.

He caually decribed the abortion a a hot

into the etu to enure that [i]tll be dead or

two day beore you deliver it. He told her the

injection alo caue the baby to [et] ot, like

muhy [make quihin ound], o you uh

it throuh so it like uttin meat in a crockot. I thi method i unucceul, he would

have to remove the baby in iece, uin, he

joked, a ickaxe, a drill bit.

Both invetiator aked i Carhart abortion

hurt the babie. He relied by arbitrarily in-

ventin hi own arameter or when a etu

eel ain. so, ater about two to three week

ater birth I think then they have retty ood

knowlede o ain, but beore that Im not o

ure that they do. In act, there i wide con-

enu in the cientic community that babieeel acute ain by 20 week o etation.7

callous KIllInG en masse

Chillinly, Carhart obviouly know he i kill-

in babie. He conitently decribed abort-

in the baby. When our invetiator aid hecould eel her baby kickin, he relied noncha-

lantly, Yeah, it movin now; ater 20 week, it

hould be. In hi mind, thouh, abortin thi

livin, movin baby wa till better than the in-

convenience o wonderin where your child i

and what haenin to it. Not to worry, Car-

hart aured our invetiator: robably within

an hour o the injection you houldnt eel it

movin anymore.

Carhart alo boated to Live Action that he had

erormed twenty-ome-thouand abortion

over 24 week, the oint o viability dened

by Roe v. Wade. Coniderin that only 10% o

women who et an abortion ater 13 week

do o out o concern or their health, the vat

majority o thee abortion were robably er-

ormed on healthy babie and mother.8

lyInG to patIents about

abortIon rIsKs

Finally, Carhart blatantly lied to both our inve-

tiator about the daner o hi abortion, co-ercin hi atient into a riky rocedure. Ive

never had to end anybody to the hoital.

Le than a year beore, hi ta were orced

to call 911 ater he injured a woman in an abor-

tion.9 Our econd invetiator aked Carhart i

he hould call an ambulance i he oe into

labor in her hotel room. With callou dire-

ard or her aety, Carhart relied, dont call

911 youre onna be within 10 minute or 15

minute o a clinic, jut et in the car. Call me.

Jut ix week earlier, he had inored hi a-tient Jennier Morbelli attemt to contact

him beore he went into cardiac arret and


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died at the local hoital. More injurie rob-

ably remain undocumented, a Carhart in-

truct hi atient, I you eel that omethin

i wron and you need to be een do not o to

the ER, call and we will meet you at the clinic.10

He would rather endaner hi atient than re-

veal hi malractice to emerency hyician.

Carhart alo told our invetiator, [T]he rik

at 36 week doin an abortion are till about

le than 10% what they are with childbirth.

Actually, abortion ater 20 week reult in 6

time more maternal death than childbirth.11

assessment

LeRoy Carhart delivered ale medical inorma-

tion to hi atient, renderin them unable toive inormed conent to a danerou abortion

rocedure. He alo dilayed ro nelience

by intructin hi atient to drive to hi clinic

while in labor, rather than callin an 911. The

Nebraka Deartment o Health and Human

service mut immediately uend hi licene

and conduct a licene invetiation.

endnotes

1 steven Ertelt, Abortion Doc Who Killed Woman

in Failed Abortion Under Invetiation, Lie

New, March 11, 2013, htt://www.lienew.com/2013/03/11/abortion-doc-who-killed-

woman-in-ailed-abortion-under-invetiation/

2 Nebraska v. Carhart (1993) htt://abortiondoc.

or/w-content/uload/2011/12/Carhart-ub-

lic-doc-le1.d.

3 Abortion provider Fiht Univerity Dimial,

The New York Time, March 13, 2001, htt://

www.nytime.com/2001/03/13/u/abortion-

rovider-ht-univerity-dimial.html.

4 Leia Baez-Mendoza, Ex-emloyee Aid

Abortion Foe, World-Herald, Auut 28,

2009, htt://omaha.com/article/20090828/

NEWs01/708289932.

5 Illeal Fetal Ae/Viability Decetion schemeUncovered By Oeration Recue At Tiller

Abortion Clinic, Oeration Recue, January

11, 2009, htt://www.oerationrecue.or/

archive/illeal-etal-aeviability-decetion-

cheme-uncovered-by-oeration-recue-at-

tiller%E2%80%99-abortion-clinic/

6 Stenberg v. Carhart, 530 U.s. 914 (2000); Gonza-

les v. Carhart, 550 U.s. 124 (2007).

7 Colleen Malloy, statement to the Houe, Com-

mittee on the Judiciary, District of Columbia

Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act,

Hearin, May 17, 2012, htt://www.nrlc.or/

abortion/Fetal_pain/TetimonyColleenMal-

loyHR3803.d.

8 Lawrence B. Finer et al, Reaon U.s. Women

Have Abortion: Quantitative and Qualitative

perective, perective on sexual and Re-

roductive Health 37, no. 3 (2005), 110118.

9 Cheryl sullener, Moan, scream Heard

From Botched Abortion Victim in 911 Call,

Lie New, May 23, 2012, htt://www.lienew.

com/2012/05/23/moan-cream-heard-rom-

botched-abortion-victim-in-911-call/

10 steven Ertelt, Wa Woman Killed in Botched

33-Week Abortion Told Not to go to ER? Lie

New, February 14, 2013, htt://www.lienew.

com/2013/02/14/wa-woman-killed-in-

botched-33-week-abortion-told-not-to-o-to-

er/

11 Bartlett, L. A. et al. (2004). Rik Factor or Le-

al Induced Abortion-Related Mortality in the

United state. Obtetric & gynecoloy, 103 (4),

72937


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investigation transcript 1

listen to audio onlinewww.LiveAction.or

transcrIpt 1 playbacK

00:00 preparInG to enter clInIc

00:07 enterInG clInIc

06:43 InstructIons from receptIonIst

37:46 called for ultrasound

37:37

clInIc-1: How you doin?

Woman: good, how are you?

clInIc-1: good. How ar alon are you?

Woman: Oh I dont know.

clInIc-1: OK, Ill do your ultraound then.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: Did you have an ultraound yet?

Yeah, he can come in.

Woman: OK. Uh, no, I havent had one yet.

Well, I mean, I had one a lon time ao.

clInIc-1: [inaudible] thi one.

38:25

clInIc-1: OK, o ahead and ho u there. I

wa told that you miht jut want to do the

ultraound today only, or-

Woman: Well, becaue I didnt know that you

had to have all the money riht u ront-

clInIc-1: Yeah.

Woman: so, I miht have to, like, ater the

ultraound my riend wa onna o and ee i

he can ather it u.

clInIc-1: OK, how much money do you have?

Woman: Uh, I think I jut have like $300.

clInIc-1: You do? OK. Did you talk to

anybody about that?

Woman: Uh, yeah, I talked to her.

clInIc-1: OK. so are you thinkin about-

Woman: she aid that what I could do i like

et the ultraound, talk to the doctor, and in

the meantime, hoeully come u with the

money, like my riend onna hel me et the

money while Im talkin to the doctor beore

or whatever.

clInIc-1: Yeah. OK, well let ee how ar

alon you are rt.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: Caue i you didnt have anultraound, it could be le than you think, o-

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: That will brin your rice down.

Woman: OK. Cool.

clInIc-1: We went by your lat eriod, riht?

Woman: Yeah.

39:28

ultrasound proGresses

Woman: What doe your hirt ay?

[lauGhter]


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clInIc-1: so did you have eriod all throuh-

Woman: All throuh what?

clInIc-1: prenancy, or?

Woman: UmI hadmy eriod have alway

been o, it eem. Theyve otten more

reular in the at coule o year, but yeah I

had ome like bleedin, in the beinnin.

clInIc-1: OK.

Woman: That why it took me a lon time

to even know I wa renant becaue I jut

thouht I wa oin back to the irreular

eriod.

clInIc-1: That haen a lot.

Woman: Really?

clInIc-1: Yeah, a lot o women will have

ottin, theyll think their eriod i jut bein

weird that month or two-

Woman: Yeah. I jut ound out like a coule

week ao that I wa renant. And I wa jut

like, really? Like I thouht I wa oin back to

the whole irreular eriod thin.

frIend: surrie, urrie, yeah.

Woman: I know.

41:34

Woman: What i that?

clInIc-1: That the head.

Woman: Oh, okay.

clInIc-1: [inaudible]

Woman: That a bi head.

clInIc-1: Yeah.

42:06

clInIc-1: Im onna do one more

meaurement becaue it meaurin at about

22 week and that over our limit, o-

Woman: What do you mean?

clInIc-1: We o only u to 21.6. so i it 22

week we wont be able to ee you here.

Woman: Oh no. I dont think Im 22.

frIend: I thouht you were earlier than that.

Woman: I thouht I jut became 20.

frIend: (ih)

clInIc-1: I thi your rt child?

Woman: Mm-hm.

clInIc-1: I you were too ar, we do have a

dierent clinic, it i a little ar thouh, it over-

Woman: I it in Nebraka?

clInIc-1: No, it in Maryland.

Woman: Oh wow.

clInIc-1: Yeah we o out to do over 21.6, o.

Woman: In Maryland?

clInIc-1: Ye. There are other clinic near

thouh that, I think Iowa oe arther, Im not

ure which art o Iowa it i, you miht want

to look into it.

Woman: so Im denitely over, or youre not

ure?

clInIc-1: Im not ure yet.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: Im onna do ome more

meaurement, tu like that.


11/52


frIend: Yeah hoeully we dont have to o

to Maryland, that would really uck.

clInIc-1: That the bad thin about when

youre arther alon, mot o the time itll be a

coule week over what you think, or le.

Woman: Why?

clInIc-1: It jut the way it i. Caue mot

eole dont think about their eriod, it not

accurate o-

Woman: Riht.

clInIc-1: I have eole comin in thinkin

they were 12 week, they were 24.

Woman: Wow. Oh my oh.

frIend: Like, why doe it to thouh at 21?

Like, it jut eem, you know-

clInIc-1: It the law. It ued to be u to

24 I believe, but they chaned it, caue the

rotetor, inature-

Woman: Why?

clInIc-1: They aid that ater 22 week, the

etu can eel ain.

Woman: Can it?

clInIc-1: Um, I really dont know. That what

they roved, but, I mean, Ive never een a

etu cry at 22 week, o. I mean, you dont

know i it eel anythin.

frIend: I dont even know, like can they-it

jut kind o a cary thouht. Like what i they,

you know, what i they came out and could

cry or omethin or moved or omethin.

clInIc-1: Yeah I know that women havemicarriae at thi oint, I mean, you can

have micarriae at any oint in renancy,

but they aid at thi oint it could oibly live

outide the womb, o that why they aid that

abortion hould not be an otion or-

Woman: so it jut u to each tate then?

clInIc-1: Mm-hm.

Woman: so that why it arther in

Maryland?

clInIc-1: Maryland oe to 27 week.

Woman: Whoa.

clInIc-1: And eole can have no roblem,

becaue ome women dont know that theyre

renant until later, o.

frIend: Haha, like you.

clInIc-1: It hould till be an otion or thoe

women. You cant jut lan on havin a babyin two month. And there a lot o minor too

that are renant 26, 27 week, o.

frIend: Yeah but there wouldnt be like an

iue thouh i he had an abortion, you know,

the baby, it would be taken care o, riht? It

not onna-

clInIc-1: Oh well what we do i we do an

injection the rt day, o that numb the baby,

it wont eel anythin. And we do that jut

becaue, um, I ue we dont have to but we

jut do it becaue it better that way.

frIend: Yeah.

Woman: And then, how do they take it out

then?

clInIc-1: We ive you a medication, that

onna induce labor.

Woman: Oh, o I have to like labor it out or

like birth it?

clInIc-1: No, you will be edated. Youre notonna be comletely alee, but you will be

relaxed enouh that you wont realize what

oin on. Um-

frIend: That a bi head, (Removed or

privacy).


12/52


46:59

Woman: I there a oibility like durin the

rocedure, or them to come out movin or

anythin?

clInIc-1: Mm-mm. Like I aid rt we numb

it o, baically, the medication we ive on

the rt day make it heart to, o even i

it didnt, that laminaria that we ut in there, I

dont know why it haen, the etu jut die,

by the econd day. But we till do it becaue

that way, we make ure that it not onna

move at all aterward.

Woman: What would haen i it did thouh?

Like what-

clInIc-1: Um, it jut die intantly.

Woman: Like ater it come out?

clInIc-1: Mm-hm.

Woman: so it jut die?

clInIc-1: Ye. It wouldnt urvive at all.

Woman: But would like I wouldnt et in

trouble, like it wouldnt et tranerred to like

the hoital or omethin, riht?

clInIc-1: No.

frIend: Well Im ure the doctor could take

care o that, (Removed or privacy).

clInIc-1: Yeah, you wont have to worry

about it, that art. That why it uch a bi

deal when we have hiher etation, we jut

have to be lookin and bein really careul

with the eole who are tryin to et u or

anythin, even i we didnt do anythin. They

want u hut down, o.

Woman: What do you mean?

clInIc-1: Um, they alway make u torie

about u doin abortion at later etation.

They ay that we x the etation on the

ultraound, and they came in the-

frIend: Oh, i it like thoe eole, like we

were comin in and they were like, yellin

at u on the way in? I didnt know what they

wanted.

Woman: geez.

clInIc-1: They jut dont undertand. They

dont need abortion becaue theyre too old.

so they jut dont know what it like to be in a

ituation where you jut eel like you have to

have one. Tell me i Im hurtin you.

Woman: OK. I it movin a lot?

clInIc-1: You want to ee?

Woman: What?

clInIc-1: [inaudible] the creen. That the

heart riht there.

frIend: Oh it beatin.

49:29

clInIc-1: You can baically ee everythin

riht now. It jut-caue riht now, here thetoro.

Woman: What i it? Do you know i it a-

clInIc-1: I cant tell on thi ultraound.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: We can tell ometime i it ater

when it come out.

Woman: Oh OK. so but-jut, jut one more

to make ure thouh. I dont, Im not, oin

to like, i there wa that liht chance that it

came out and it wa till movin, like, I dont

et in trouble, riht?

clInIc-1: No.


13/52


Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: That never haened beore

either.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: so I wouldnt worry about it.

Woman: I aw thi article online where-

frIend: My hand hurt.

Woman: I aw thi article online where like a

woman had an abortion like, I think later than

me, he wa like 24 week or omethin, and

like, the baby actually urvived. And o like,

he wa like orced to take care o it. And like,

ever ince I read that article I, like, oh my god,can you imaine?

clInIc-1: I think I read that one too.

Woman: Yeah.

clInIc-1: Um, it wouldnt be able to urvive,

becaue when it come out, it jut cant

breathe, you know, it too mall to like urvive

without any machine or anythin. so-

Woman: so but the doctor would take care o

it, like I dont have to worry about-

clInIc-1: No.

Woman: OK, cool.

frIend: Well I think that jut omethin you

could let it, you know, it jut onna die, riht,

o jut let it-

clInIc-1: Yeah I dont know how that would

haen, becaue the clinic not a hoital,

mot abortion clinic are not in the hoital,

o i it urvived, unle the mom wa onnabe like, Im takin it home, it imoible that

he onna make it home with the baby alive.

Woman: Riht.

clInIc-1: so, I think that wa jut a made-u

tory.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: It ay youre meaurin at 22week, o-

Woman: sorry, you aid it i howin 22?

clInIc-1: Yeah.

Woman: Really?

frIend: Yike.

clInIc-1: Ill have to o ak around i there a

clinic cloer. Where do you live?

Woman: Um, well, I dont mind travelin, it

jut, I would want, like, i it oible to talk

too, but, i it your clinic thouh? Like it

another one?

clInIc-1: The one in Maryland, ye, it not

our clinic, but our doctor oe there every

week, o it the ame doctor.

52:14

Woman: OK, caue I heard that he the betto o to. And o that why it would, like, I

would eel more comortable oin to hi, you

know, like i that where he doe them too,

then ye, I would want to o there.

clInIc-1: Yeah, OK.

Woman: Becaue I dont want to take that

rik.

clInIc-1: Um, what we can do i the cot I

believe i onna be about the ame, I can o

nd that or you. You never had a child beore,o you have no obliation that we need to be

aware about?

Woman: OK.


14/52


clInIc-1: Um, you have to think about the

cot that it onna be or you to travel that

way, and you need to tay in a hotel, it onna

be a two-day rocedure.

Woman: I have amily, I have amily there. so,

I could-

clInIc-1: Um, do you know where?

Woman: They live in like Betheda, i that

Maryland?

clInIc-1: Were in germantown.

Woman: OK. How ar away i that?

frIend: We can goole it or omethin.

clInIc-1: Um, that like 30 minute rom DC

I think.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: But we jut want to make ure that

you continue to wait, jut in cae becaue

we dont want anythin to haen and then

youre not there, or cloe enouh to et there.

Woman: OK. Like, I mean, I can make it

haen, o.

clInIc-1: OK. Um, we can ive you number

or nancial aitance, i you want to try, jut

ather the money and well o rom there.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: Um, aain, o ahead and make your

aointment o we have everythin ready or

that clinic.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: And then, um, Ill ive you the

number now, o that you can call, and

then you can call u when you et your

aointment. OK?

Woman: OK. I it oible to, i, can I till

meet with the doctor today?

clInIc-1: Yeah. You can wait or him, he

hould be here any time.

Woman: OK, yeah, caue that way at leat I

can talk to him about everythin beore I o

out and do all that.

clInIc-1: Yeah. OK.

Woman: I that ok?

clInIc-1: Yeah, that ne. Hell talk to you,

and i you et out to thi clinic, hell talk to you

there too, o you miht a well jut meet now.

frIend: Jut do it.

Woman: Exactly, while Im here.

clInIc-1: Yeah. All riht, let me o ak about,

becaue we uually chare or the ultraound,

but ince your i dierent, Im onna o ak.

Woman: Oh OK. Thank you.

clInIc-1: I do, I will take a urine amle now,

o i you want to come with me Ill take you

to-

Woman: OK. should I take thi cliboard with

me?

clInIc-1: Yeah you can brin it. Youre onna

o u to the [inaudible]

Woman: OK.

54:52 Woman does urIne test

clInIc-1: Yeah it oin to be more, it

$3,200.

Woman: Oh my oh, OK.

clInIc-1: Thee are two number I athered

or you, actually let me write down another

one. Here that.

Woman: OK.


15/52


clInIc-1: Your aointment will be or

Monday (inaudible).

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: I do need you to in thi jut date,initial and in.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: And I do need to collect or your

ultraound, but i you do come in or your

aointment you wont have to ay or it

aain.

Woman: OK. How much i the ultraound?

clInIc-1: It $100.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: so i you jut take a eat, Ill make

ure they have you meet with the doctor.

Woman: OK, thank you. And do I jut kee

llin out thee orm?

clInIc-1: Um, you can, but were not oin to

collect thoe ince youre not tayin here.

Woman: OK. Thank you.

01:07:01

frIend: Hi

carhart: Hi, are you waitin or me?

Woman: Ye, are you the doctor?

carhart: Yeah I am.

Woman: OK. Let ee what weve ot. Are

you (Removed or privacy)?

frIend: Hi, Im (Removed or privacy).

carhart: (Removed or privacy)? You aid

(Removed or privacy) thouh?

frIend: (Removed or privacy).

carhart: Oh, (Removed or privacy) what

you o by?

frIend: Yeah.

carhart: OK. We needed you lat week.

Woman: You what?

carhart: I aid we needed you lat week.

Woman: I know. Well, I didnt know I wa thi

ar alon.

carhart: Im ure. Um, OK. All riht, um,

where are you rom? (Removed or privacy)?

No.

Woman: she rom-

carhart: Youre rom (Removed or privacy)?

frIend: Yeah.

carhart: OK. Well, youre only three hour

[away?] No, maybe our.

Woman: Yeah we, were actually jut crahin

with a riend out here, jut-

carhart: Are you rom (Removed or

privacy) alo?

Woman: No, no I wa born in (Removed

or privacy). Um, but I lived in (Removed or

privacy)-

carhart: But I mean, are you rom (Removed

or privacy)?

Woman: Yeah, I wa born and raied in

(Removed or privacy), o.

carhart: All riht.

Woman: I like moved around a lot.

carhart: But youre in Lincoln riht now?

Woman: Yeah.


16/52


carhart: I et it. OK. so. How can I hel

you?

Woman: so, they aid that um there alo

a lace in Maryland that we could o to that

doe them arther I ue.

carhart: Uh yeah, we o, we have, or

elective we can o 26 week, and or

indication we can o anythin. so, um, but

youre, youve ot a month to et that out o

the way. It et more exenive every week.

Woman: Yeah, I aw that. But you would be

my doctor who would do it, riht?

carhart: In germantown, riht.

Woman: OK.

carhart: And we could tart you a early a

thi Monday.

Woman: A thi comin Monday? OK.

carhart: Um, he aid you need hel with

nancin?

01:09:05

Woman: Yeah I miht. I mean, I can etmoney toether throuh like riend and tu.

carhart: OK. And there alo an

oranization that can hel, theyll ive you the

inormation or the NAF.

Woman: OK. so, what kind o rocedure

would I have to et then? since Im-

carhart: It would be the ame thin wed

do here, um it jut that it would be, um, a

combination between a D&E and an induction.

We would try to induce you to jut deliver the

baby.

Woman: What do you mean, like, Id have to

like, birth it?

carhart: Yeah. That the aet thin or

you, and we do it with edation, o you

robably would not be too aware o the bodily

roce. We would do two day o uttin

laminaria in your cervix to oen it, and then onthe third day we would do the delivery.

01:09:57

Woman: How do youhow do you do it?

Like, caue he aid, the nure aid omethin

about a hot. I that

carhart: We do a hot into the etu to end

the renancy the rt day. And that the

ame thin we would do here.

Woman: OK.

carhart: Or even, i you were anythin over

18 week, it the ame thin we would do

here. 18 week or over, we would do here.

Woman: Doe it hurt them?

carhart: Um, well youre onna be alee,

and not eel it, and the medicine that ut

you to lee i like 100 time more than the

amount wed ive the etu, o yeah, no, I

dont think he onna eel it.

Woman: OK.

carhart: Um, uh, it very, Im not ure, I

mean, I totally diaree that the etu eel

any ain with a reular D&E, at 22, 21 week.

Like, the bet way I can exlain i that you

know they have the ain recetor reent,

but it like a motion icture, youre watchin

a movie, you can have the camera and the

rojector, but i you havent ot a creen or

it to lay on, you dont ot a movie, and thateentially the way it i. The recetor are

there but the brain unction i not there, or it

not connected, you know?

Woman: OK. Um.


17/52


carhart: You know, they circumcie babie

without any anetheia at all. And or year

theyve done that.

Woman: Yeah.

01:11:24

carhart: It, um, they dont hardly

reconize the ain ater theyre born or the

rt coule week. so, ater about two to

three week ater birth, then theyre, I think

then they have retty ood knowlede o

ain, but beore that Im not o ure that they

do.

Woman: OK. Um, and then how do theycome out?

carhart: Well, i everythin work riht,

they come outyou jut deliver them and

they come out ne. I mean, i, i um, or ome

reaon that doent haen, then we have to

take them out in iece, but the baby already

dead o there not, you know, there not

oin to be any ain rom that.

Woman: Do they, doe it ever come out like

movin or anythin?

carhart: No, it dead. Itll be dead or two

day beore you deliver it. Well know that

rom the ultraound.

Woman: OK.

carhart: so, weve never-no, You know, all

the tu out there on the internet i to kee

you rom havin, to make thi choice, o i

there wa any truth to it-

frIend: That robably what reakin you

out.

Woman: Yeah I know.

carhart: What that?

frIend: The internet.

Woman: I did ome reearch and I howed

her the article, there wa like a woman who

had an abortion like, I think it wa 24 week?

Or omethin, and, but, it ailed, and o like,

the baby ended u like urvivin, and hewa like orced to take care o the baby. And

o I read that and when I wa llin out the

aerwork today-

carhart: It didnt have any injurie or

anythin?

Woman: I think it wa like mentally

handicaed or the ret o it lie, but like, I,

when I wa readin today in that thin, it aid

like ailed abortion or omethin-

carhart: I dont know how that would beoible to haen-

Woman: And o that why like, ever ince

then, Ive been like oh my oh, you know?

carhart: I mean it deend on what you

mean a ailed abortion. A ar a-

Woman: I mean like bein born.

carhart: A ar a endin the renancy,

a ar a endin the renancy, um, back 15

year ao beore we tarted uin the etalinjection, there wa alway a oibility that

ater they did the labor or a coule day the

e-the child would be born. Um, but there

would be nothin to damae, it, it jut onna

be born. But now with the injection, we know

that, ye, we, Ive had one that delivered

beore we thouht they hould, but the etu

had been dead or a day and a hal already. so,

it not onna move. You know, it jut out.

Eentially, the abortion over like 15 minute

ater we tart the rocedure. And then the

next two day are jut dilatin your cervix and

makin it o it come out without makin it o

you cant have uture renancie.

Woman: OK.

carhart: so.


18/52


01:14:18

Woman: What would haen i it did come

out movin? Like would I et in trouble?

carhart: Well any, it, i you come to u, itimoible, caue I wont do anythin ele

until I know the etu i not alive. And i it not

alive-

Woman: Like continue with the ret o it?

carhart: It int onna move. Well no, I

mean it, Im u, were u in the twenty-

ome thouand number o atient over 24

week, and there hant been one movin or

two day beore we nihed yet. so I would

think that to be movin at the time o deliverywould be jut abolutely imoible.

Woman: OK.

carhart: I it come out movin then

we have to reucitate it and end it to the

hoital, I mean that the law.

Woman: You do?

carhart: Ye. Everybody doe, I mean,

that, it a livin thin then, that ot, but

that-

Woman: so then I would have to take care o

it? Like and raie it?

carhart: Um, no, you have the riht o, ame

a any mother, within 72 hour o birth you

can ay it not my roblem, and in it o.

Woman: so by oin, o in Maryland, that

the law?

carhart: Here it the law. Every tate in

the United state, that the law. I the baby iborn, once it born, i it born alive, then you

have to have it.

Woman: Oh my od. Really?

carhart: But it int onna haen. I mean

it like you tellin me that you know, uh-

Woman: so you would have to reucitate it?

carhart: I it, i it were born alive, but it,there abolutely zero oibility that onna

haen.

Woman: OK.

01:15:50

carhart: Becaue i it int dead we arent

oin to o on with the abortion.

Woman: OK.

carhart: Itll tay alive inide o you, but I

havent had one that done that yet. I mean,

ometime we have to reeat the injection on

the econd day, but that only been like three

time in the twenty year that Ive been doin

thee.

Woman: so the injection i what you tick

inide the, the-

carhart: Throuh your tummy into the

etu.

Woman: Throuh my tomach. And doe the

needle hurt me?

carhart: You? A little bit.

Woman: Yeah. A little bit?

carhart: But you robably wont remember

it. Mot eole end u akin me what the

Band-Aid or the next day. so.

Woman: OK. Um, and then, um, will I eel it

like dyin? No?

carhart: It not even onna eel it dyin. It

jut, the heart low down and it jut to.

Woman: Caue I already eel it like kickin

and movin.


19/52


01:16:36

carhart: Yeah it movin now, ater 20

week it hould be.

Woman: so I wont eel it like movin oranythin, like, that it.

carhart: No, robably within an hour o

the injection you houldnt eel it movin

anymore.

Woman: And then, um, o and then you on

the econd day you take it out and then what

haen to it ater?

carhart: It oe, we have to either, i you

want to have it cremated, then you have to

arrane that with the uneral home, and in

Maryland that like 20, uh like 400 or 450

dollar to et them to cremate it and ive you

back the ahe. Um, i we, i you dont chooe

to do that, then wed end it to be, it oe in

with medical, what they call medical body

art, ame a i you had an arm amutated at

the hoital, or omethin, cancer in the le

and they have to remove the le. Then it jut

et cremated with that and buried. It ha to,

it controlled by the tate, we have to have a

licened, reulated carrier that ick it u andtranort it to the lace.

Woman: so you dont have anythin at the

clinic thouh to do that? Like Id have to o

outide o the clinic i I wanted to bury it or-

carhart: I you want to bury it then you have

to o outide the clinic, yeah.

Woman: OK. Do a lot o women do that?

carhart: Maybe, no, maybe 5%. Maybe 1%.

somewhere about, yeah, robably about 5%.

Woman: OK.

carhart: But I mean, it not chea, and it

uh-

frIends: We can talk about it (Removed or

privacy).

carhart: And thoe thin, thoe thin you

uh, have to do.

Woman: OK.

01:18:19

carhart: Well, the ooner you make your, I

mean, you have to decide whether you want

to have a baby or not. I you dont, that the

choice, i you do, then your choice i what

youre onna do with it, whether youre onna

raie it, ut it u or adotion, or ut it in

oter care, thoe are the three choice youhave.

Woman: I dont want any o that, I dont

want-

carhart: so, and that, there nothin in

my mind at all wron with that. In act, it uh,

you know, rather than endin the ret o

your lie wonderin where your child i and

what haenin to it and everythin ele,

it better to know that you know, it can be a

memory in your heart and wih it wa dierent

but know that it couldnt be.

Woman: Yeah. so, um, the nure had

aid omethin about tayin at a hotel or

omethin like that. What-

carhart: Yeah, there, you can et on

priceline and et hotel or $50 a niht to $55

a niht

Woman: OK.

carhart: Around germantown or

gaitherbur area. But youd need the money

to et there, you need the money or the

hotel, and money or ood or three day.

Woman: OK. And you aid there wa a lace

that could hel me with that?


20/52


carhart: Huh?

Woman: You aid that there wa a omethin

they could hel me-

carhart: I dont know, they do hel eolei you qualiy, I dont know what your income

tatu i or anythin like that.

Woman: OK.

carhart: They need to know what your

houehold income and exene are and then

they there a national undin aency that

can hel omewhat. But theyre not oin to

be able to come u with the whole thin, or

whatever-

Woman: And how many day would I need tobe there?

carhart: Um, we need to tart early on

Monday mornin, Tueday and we nih on

Wedneday, o you need to robably be there

3 niht. You need to o there um sunday

niht, no, yeah, sunday niht, Monday niht,

Tueday niht, and then leave Wedneday

aternoon. I you make your fiht home

on Wedneday, make it a late a oible,

otherwie tay till Thurday mornin.

Woman: OK. Or jut leave Thurday. Am I

onna be like in a lot o ain aterward? Do

you know?

carhart: You houldnt be in any ain.

Woman: OK.

carhart: And there are no retriction

aterward. Excet or nothin in your vaina

or 3 week.

Woman: OK.

01:20:24

carhart: A I tell everybody, that include

ner, riend, and ruit.

[lauGhter]

Woman: Oh my oh. OK. Do you have any

quetion or him?

frIend: It u to you. so youre ayin weneed to et there-how ar, what did he ay

you were? How lon do we have, you know?

carhart: 22 week. she ha a month to et

there. But the dierence between, I dont

know there, but when we were here, the

dierence between 22 week and 26 week

wa like the dierence between $2,025 or

$3,000, I dont know their rice and maybe

$6,000 or $7,000 o, yeah there time, but

the money, it oe u on an averae o $1,000

er week. Until youre 29, and then it oe uby $2000 a week, but without a reaon we

couldnt do it at 29 o.

Woman: OK.

carhart: OK?

Woman: And how jut o I know, like how

lon have you been doin thi, like a lon

time?

carhart: Oh I jut ot here. [lauhter]

Woman: Well I mean like, you know.

01:21:35

carhart: since 1970, I did my rt abortion.

Woman: OK. And you ee a lot o women that

are a ar alon a I am?

carhart: Yeah Im one o the 4 eole in

the country that do all o the later abortion,

anythin over 24 week-

Woman: Why wont more doctor do them?

carhart: Well mot o the tate wont allow

them to do them. There only Colorado,

Nebrak-no, Iowa, Maryland, and, I g


21/52


ig g ii i Iw, otherwie Id

be there intead o Maryland caue it a lot

cloer or me to o over there.

Woman: so it eem like youre the number

one rovider.

carhart: Well retty much, we robably do

more than twice a many a anybody ele.

01:22:23

Woman: Yeah I ooled about thi clinic and

I aw that you were o raied, like oh he the

bet, and o that why when the nure had

aid you know we have a clinic in Maryland I

wa like okay, Ill o there.

carhart: Yeah.

frIend: I wih it jut wouldnt be o ar, your

tuid eriod.

Woman: Exactly, I thouht I wa 20, I know. I

only thouht I wa 20 week.

carhart: I dont know a ar a, Ive had

eole come rom arther than thi by bu to

Maryland, by lane, and by, fyin, i you can

et, but the trouble with ticket thi time oyear, Chritma, it, it fiin imoible.

frIend: Yeah.

Woman: so what the exact lat, like, what

the cut o to make an aointment by? Like i

I cant et it thi comin Monday, what i the

cut o?

carhart: Um, well there, you can call u

and make the aointment, and then i you

cant come, jut tell em you cant come.

Woman: OK.

carhart: And then we can jut rechedule it

or the next Monday. But then were onna be

cloer two week to Chritma, the week o

Chritma, and week o New Year were not

onna be there, o. You have thi week and

next week.

Woman: OK.

carhart: But till the ooner you can et

there the better it would be or everybody.

And even thouh the rik at 30 week doin

an abortion, uhh 36 week doin an abortion,

are till about le than 10% what they are with

childbirth, till they o u every week. so at

20, 24 week, it till hundred o time aer

than oin in at the end o the renancy.

Woman: And Ill be able to like conceive in

the uture?

carhart: Hoeully, yeah. I mean I cant

uarantee anythin, but the chance o havin

to have a D&C that require a hyterectomy

which i about the only reaon you couldnt

conceive in the uture i le than 1 in 20,000

or omethin.

Woman: OK.

carhart: And that the national averae.

Weve never, Ive never had to end anybody

to the hoital with my atient, o.

Woman: Oh really.

01:24:25

carhart: And the Chritin gilbert thin on

the internet wa not my atient. I ended u

eein her in the h

Woman: Who Chritin gilbert?

carhart: Oh i you o on the Internet

eventually youll nd it, he wa a 19 year oldmentally handicaed irl rom Texa that

Dr. Tiller had oerated on, and he haened

to come back to the clinic on a day that I

wa coverin or him, but it wa our day

ater, he had what called ot-artum hel


22/52


yndrome, which haen very, veryyouve

heard o eclamia with women

Woman: Yeah.

carhart: pre-eclamia, eclamia, well i ithaen beore delivery the cure i delivery,

and it uually i never a roblem, but i it

haen ater delivery, nobody ha been cured

rom it. And it a, ome kind o an immune

reaction rom your body to the etal tiue

that wa in there, that you know, wa there.

so and even ater the etu i delivered, there

till etal cell in your blood rom 4 to 6 week.

so i you develo a reaction to it, there jut

no way. Uually by ettin the etu out, then

it to, the blood to minlin, and you et

better riht away. But i it haen ater the

etu i already out, then there nothin ele

to take out to make you better. They can treat

you with all kind o teroid, but nobody ha

urvived it yet.

Woman: so what haened to her?

carhart: she died.

Woman: Oh wow.

01:25:59

carhart: so, um. But they were, they were

not uet with Dr. Tiller, who wa her doctor,

they invited him to eak at her uneral. so-

Woman: Did they et uet at you?

carhart: No theyre not uet with anybody.

But the Anti jut decidin to blame me

or it, becaue Tiller dead, why blame him.

(lauh)

Woman: Riht.

carhart: so-

Woman: Wow.

carhart: All riht, well I otta o, whatever

choice you make i ne-

Woman: OK.

carhart: But um the only thin I can ay iyour oin to terminate, the ooner the better.

Woman: OK.

carhart: Honetly, um it about a 20, a 20

hour drive there, i you ot a car thatll make it

that ar, robably the bet thin to do-

Woman: Cheaer.

carhart: And i you dont, you can rent a car

or 6 day or, or a weekly rental around here

it robably about $200, $240.

Woman: OK.

carhart: And then you dont have to worry

about whether itll make it or not, it a hell o

a lot cheaer than, actually the cab are there

or a coule o day will run you a coule

hundred dollar, $10 each time you head to

the clinic, and robably $30 to and rom the

airort. so-

Woman: OK, OK.

carhart: so um to me that, thati I didnt

o every week, I would drive in a heartbeat

becaue it, it like 6 hour o fyin time, each

way and it et-

Woman: And you do that every week?

carhart: I do that every week, yeah.

Woman: Oh my oh.

carhart: I leave here sunday mornin

about ve in the mornin, and I et back onWedneday niht at midniht.

Woman: so do you live there?

carhart: No I live here.

Woman: Oh OK.


23/52


01:27:31

carhart: I have a hotel room there-

Woman: Oh my oh, yeah.

carhart: Which you can et ood hotel

on priceline, uh, either in germantown or

gaitherbur. I ut gaitherbur in rt at $50

at 3 tar, it tarted at 3 1/2 tar worked out.

Woman: Riht.

carhart: And i you dont et anythin, add

germantown and then o to $55.

Woman: OK.

carhart: Youll nd omethin decent.

Woman: OK.

carhart: Dont, Dont o below 2 1/2 tar

thouh.

Woman: OK. It et a little creey?

carhart: Caue then it end u at the Red

Roo Inn and tu.

Woman: OK.

carhart: But even o the Red Roo in arelike $70-$89 or o. I you want there, you in

u there but I dont-

Woman: Riht.

frIend: We want you to be comortable-

carhart: Excue me.

frIend: Im jut ayin to her that we want

her to comortable

carhart: Well it wa a leaure to meet ya.

Wa that (Removed or privacy)?

frIend: Well (Removed or privacy), but you

can call me (Removed or privacy)

carhart: And that what your reer

(Removed or privacy), or you reer

(Removed or privacy)?

frIend: (Removed or privacy) ne.

carhart: Oh OK. good to meet you.

Woman: good to meet you.

carhart: Um, i you call that number youre

till oin to et u. so call u caue we make

all o their aointment.

Woman: OK.

carhart: It my oce we run rom here, and

I jut o there a coule o day.

Woman: OK. Thank you.

carhart: All riht, thank you.

01:28:44

carhart exIts offIce, team exIts offIce

Woman: Well, I dont know, do we need to do

anythin?

frIend: I dont know.

carhart: Did you ay or the ultraound?

Woman: Yeah.

carhart: Theyll credit you- (inaudible)

clInIc-3: Can yall jut have a eat, she on

the hone and then Ill have her call you u

Woman: sure, OK.

01:30:35

clInIc-2: All riht weetheart Im jut oin

to take all o your inormation you ave u

over here, I jut need an email addre o I

can email you intruction to our clinic in

germantown.


24/52


clInIc-3: Do you have an email addre?

Woman: Yeah, no.

clInIc-2: You dont have one?

Woman: I know it weird.

clInIc-3: I totally undertand that caue I

dont do that.

Woman: OK, OK. Can I call back?

clInIc-2: Yeah Ill jut rint one and ive it to

you.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-2: No roblem. OK i you jut want

to have a eat, Ill o ahead and write thi all

done, the time and date, and et everythin

et u or you. And make ure we o over

everythin ele with the hotel and tu like

that.

clInIc-3: Youre fyin in thi next Monday?

clInIc-2: Youre comin in next week not thi

week riht?

clInIc-3: she comin in a oon a oible.

Woman: Well I mean, yeah -

frIend: We need to look at aointment and

(inaudible)

clInIc-3: (inaudible)

Woman: I till have to look at fiht and tu.

clInIc-2: Yeah (inaudible). so 22 week youll

tart out there o youll need to be there

Monday throuh Thurday (inaudible).

clInIc-3: You can o online and et reatrate on Hotel.

frIend: I think Im oin to-

Woman: Yeah he aid jut ue priceline.

clInIc-3: Yeah priceline, that the one we do

our, when we do, we et much better deal.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-3: Yeah and ue um gaitherbur-

Woman: Yeah gaitherbur or germantown.

clInIc-3: Oh he told you already.

Woman: Yeah he told me everythin.

clInIc-3: (inaudible) lauh

Woman: (lauh)

clInIc-2: And we jut ak that you have

omeone with you durin your tay

Woman: Yeah that no roblem.

clInIc-2: OK yeah we jut reer you have

omeone with you day or niht. OK, all riht,

I will alo ive you the addre and hone

number to our germantown location, that

way when youre in the area you can call them

or more intruction like where to ark, and

theyll ive better direction caue I dont

know anythin over there (lauh).

Woman: Oh OK.

clInIc-2: But Ill have all thi tu written

down or you, and then Ill rint it o or you

and then Ill ive it all to you.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-2: OK, thank weetie

Woman: so how lon will it-

clInIc-2: Jut like 5 minute, I have to write

down real at

Woman: OK, do you know what time it i.

clInIc-2: Uh ten oclock.

Woman: I jut have to et to omewhere

oon-


25/52


clInIc-2: No I comletely undertand.

Woman: OK.

01:33:00

Woman Grabs Water to drInK

01:42:28

clInIc-3: OK o thee are jut about,

rotetor, youve already met ome-

Woman: Yeah on my way in.

clInIc-3: same rule aly, we dont allow

ba or ure with cell hone in them,

OK, you can brin a mall ure but nothin

uer (inaudible) No cell hone, becaue you

wouldnt want omeone to take a icture and

end it ya know. so I can till remember when

Dr. Tiller year ao, when omeone aid, look

at the icture I took, and he realized, not that

he cared about himel, but the condentiality

o everyone ele, o rom that oint on it wa

no cell hone in the clinic.

Woman: Yeah denitely.

clInIc-3: Yeah o hoto ID, you mut havethat already, ok, Ill let you take over-

clInIc-2: Yeah Ill take over, uh thee are jut

thin to o over. Make ure uh thin that

you dont brin in, cell hone, ame thin

here. No cellhone or ure or thin like

that-

Woman: OK.

clInIc-2: Um thi one riht here, thi ide,

thi i number to hel with undin i you

need hel with undin.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-2: Um NAF i one o the mot

common one we ue. Um but like we aid it

i a hard number to et ahold o, becaue it i

nationwide, there a lot o eole callin. so

it like a radio contet.

clInIc-3: (inaudible)

clInIc-2: Yeah but um, it jut like one o

thoe radio contet, you kee dialin until

you hear an actual eron on the hone not a

recordin.

Woman: OK

clInIc-2: And thee are alo abortion

number, theyre number to hel with

undin alo

Woman: OK

clInIc-2: Thi i the addre or the

germantown location and an actual hone

number. Call them when youre in town

Woman: OK

clInIc-2: And um, did they tell you the rice

o what it oin to be?

Woman: Ye

clInIc-2: OK, o jut to make ure. OK?

Woman: OK, i that all I need?

clInIc-2: Yu, that all you need

Woman: Thank you o much

01:44:20 Woman exIts clInIc


26/52


27/52


investigation transcript 2

listen to audio onlinewww.LiveAction.or

transcrIpt 2 playbacK

Woman enters clInIc

Woman checKs In at front desK

Woman uses restroom

Woman fIlls out paperWorK

20:40 nurse brInGs Woman bacK for

ultrasound

21:35

clInIc-1: Ill have you lay down u here.When wa your lat ultraound?

Woman: Uh, it wa early in the renancy o

it been a real lon time. Do you need me to

take-

clInIc-1: Um, I jut need your belly

uncovered.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: so you can jut lit that u.

Woman: OK. I would have tried down or

you. You eem nice enouh.

clInIc-1: (lauh) Well, youll have to

anyway, when the doctor come in.

Woman: Oh, true.

clInIc-1: Luckily, um, youll have motly irl

in the room.

Woman: Oh, OK.

clInIc-1: Excet or the doctor. OK. go ahead

and lay down.

Woman lIes doWn

clInIc-1: Um, we tried to et a hold o you

or undin, did you et a hold o all the und,

or-

Woman: No, I didnt et a voicemail or

anythin.

clInIc-1: We miht have had the wron

number or omethin.

Woman: That OK, thouh, I wa able to, I

wa able to et it. The ex-boyriend helin.

clInIc-1: Oh, ood.

Woman: so.

clInIc-1: You never had a C-ection.

Woman: No. Never delivered. Hoe I never

have a C-ection.

clInIc-1: Yeah that wouldnt be un. Althouh

it not a bad when youre on the table, but-

Woman: That true. It the aterward art, I

meanthouh I had one riend, the anetheia

didnt work, and he elt the C-ection.

clInIc-1: Oh no. That one o my

nihtmare. I dont ever wanna have urery

and all alee, caue I dont wanna, what i I

can eel it all-

Woman: And wake u to earin ain

(lauh).

clInIc-1: Or not even bein able to wake u

and, you know.

Woman: Or that.


28/52


clInIc-1: And then with everythin you eel

the whole thin.

Woman: Oh, yeah.

clInIc-1: That would uck. Hoeully yourenot arther than what we can do.

23:49

Woman: Doe it look like I am?

clInIc-1: so ar it doe, but Im onna do at

leat 3 dierent meaurement.

Woman: OK. What do we do i I am.

clInIc-1: Well there, uh, nothin in the area,alon that ar, there are clinic, there one

in Colorado, which would be the cloet to

you, um there one in New Mexico which i

arther, and there one in germantown which,

our doctor work there, o-

Woman: Oh. Oh, OK. I wouldnt mind, I mean,

eein him. I dont mind travelin.

clInIc-1: Yeah, um, we have atient there

every week, and we can et you in or,

actually, i you are able to manae to travel,

um, sunday throuh Wedneday next week.

Woman: Oh, OK, reat. I the doctor here

today thouh?

clInIc-1: Uh, yeah, he will be-

Woman: so I could ak him my quetion

now beore I travel all the way to-

clInIc-1: Yeah.

Woman: Where i germantown?

clInIc-1: It in Maryland, DC area.

Woman: I knew it want in germany, but

(lauh).

clInIc-1: Yeah. It would be crazy to travel all

the way there. Im ure that thi i leal there,

you know.

Woman: Yeah. Well, and i he here then I

can actually it and talk, and know who Im

meetin intead o travelin to another tate

where you dont know who thoe eole are.

clInIc-1: Yeah.

Woman: And youre nice, o I trut you.

clInIc-1: (lauh) We have a lot o atient

call in. We are the one that make the

aointment or germantown clinic.

Woman: Oh, OK.

clInIc-1: We have a lot o atient call in

and, you know it alway weird to call a, a

lace that, you know you read it, you aw it on

the Internet, and youre callin to do a 4-day

rocedure and you ay thouand o dollar

or it, you dont really know who youre talkin

to, o-

Woman: Yeah. That why, i I meet him

today, I can know and eel much better.

clInIc-1: Yeah. That would be an advantaeor you.

Woman: How lon have you worked here?

clInIc-1: It onna be 3 year, on sunday.

Woman: 3 year. On sunday. Wow.

clInIc-1: It been a lon time.

Woman: Do you like it?

clInIc-1: Yeah. It never borin. There

alway omethin. patient are entertainin.

Woman: (lauh) I that a nice way o ayin

theyre ecial?

clInIc-1: Yeah. Mot o it, you know,

renant women. What can you exect?


29/52


Woman: Yeah. Nothin. Jut otta be oen

or everythin, I ue.

clInIc-1: Yeah.

Woman: What your avorite art about thejob?

clInIc-1: Um, well, really, like in relation to

the atient?

Woman: Anythin.

26:27

clInIc-1: I like the act that we do everythin

here, we dont have like one ecic job that

we do, we jut rotate.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: The doctor like it that way, that

way we can, that way i omebody miin

theyre eay to be relaced.

Woman: so you can do ultraound, ront, the

actual urery.

clInIc-1: Ye, everythin.

Woman: Wow. so doe that mean you have anurin deree?

clInIc-1: Um, no, we have a nure here, but

he doent require a CNA or anythin like that,

um, I ot a (inaudible) throuh them, they tet

u here and tu like that.

Woman: Oh, OK.

clInIc-1: so baically, a lon a we can

learn the baic, um, and be able to rovide

medication, (inaudible), all that tu.

Woman: Riht.

clInIc-1: It ivin me a hard time,

(inaudible).

Woman: I dont know how you can tell what

anythin i on that creen.

clInIc-1: It i harder the bier it et,

becaue you dont (inaudible) the whole

creen, but um, baically you et ued to like,

eein what what.

Woman: Doe your ultraound machine, you

have to like, et a new one every year?

clInIc-1: No, unortunately, we need a new

one, but they are over $10,000.

Woman: Oh, wow!

clInIc-1: We dont make that much money

here, we hardly make any to tay oen, o-

Woman: so a $10,000 machine i a luxury.

Clinic-1: Yeah, I wih we could jut et it.

It would make our live eaier, but thi one

work jut ne. It jut old.

Woman: Are you rom Omaha?

clInIc-1: Um, no, Im rom peru, I moved

here a coule year ao.

Woman: Oh, OK. Did you move to o to

chool, or jut to try omethin new, or-

clInIc-1: Actually, I wa oin to chool

down there, and there wa a roram or

tudent, or collee tudent to come u

here and work or a ew month, um, jut a an

exerience, ome o u, a lot o eole learn

Enlih down there, o they wanted to come

over here and ractice their lanuae kill. so

I ined u or it.

Woman: And you never let.

Clinic-1: Yeah, I met my huband here, and it

jut, I didnt o back.

Woman: Do you have any kid?

clInIc-1: I eel too youn or kid.

Woman: I hear ya.


30/52


clInIc-1: Althouh Im not, I mean Im at the

ae when women have kid, like 26 or o. It

uually when mot tart wantin to have a

amily.

29:32

Woman: Are you 26?

clInIc-1: Mm-hm.

Woman: Im 27.

clInIc-1: Yeah but you are, ee, you really

dont, you werent lannin on havin a baby,

were you?

Woman: No. No. But I thouht it would keeu toether. You know, you think that, oh, we

have roblem, but maybe a baby will x it.

so we tried, like oh, I ue well kee it. And

then he let.

clInIc-1: You think that you are not doin

thi or him any more.

Woman: Noe. Noe, doin it or me.

clInIc-1: OK. Well you are too ar or u,

youre 26 week.

Woman: 26? Wow.

clInIc-1: so, Im oin to call the doctor,

let him know about it, o he can talk to

you, and ee i we can et u omethin or

germantown i you are OK with that.

Woman: Ye. But I can o ahead and meet

and ak my quetion today?

clInIc-1: Yeah.

Woman: OK, reat.

clInIc-1: You can talk to him. Ill jut let him

know that youll wanna do that, o that way,

o-

Woman: I he on hi lunch break?

clInIc-1: Uh, he jut ot back-

Woman: Jut kiddin.

clInIc-1: -rom another clinic, actually, he

jut traveled back, o he robably i on hibreak, you know.

Woman: Well, I brouht a book, caue I

know, you know, you et ued to waitin

around lace.

clInIc-1: Yeah, we alway tell everybody

to o ahead and brin omethin to read

throuh jut in cae.

Woman: 26, wow. so, at 26 week, i it very

develoed, at thi oint?

clInIc-1: Um, baically ater 16 week or o,

um, yeah.

Woman: so what doe that mean, like, it

ully develoed?

clInIc-1: Yeah, baically.

Woman: Oh.

clInIc-1: Um, it able to be alive outide the

womb, but the ercentae i not very hih, u

to 24 week or o.

Woman: so i I went into labor like, jut went

into labor, the baby could urvive.

clInIc-1: It could.

Woman: (lauh)

clInIc-1: Yeah. I you didnt have any renatal

care, thouh, I dont know that there would be

omethin wron that you dont know about,

and o that the bad thin about when you

have a lanned renancy.

Woman: Riht. Wow. But 26 week, o it ha

a ace at thi oint. And hand, and eet. OK,

all riht.

clInIc-1: It hard to think about, but-


31/52


Woman: No. Kinda interetin, I ue, but

yeah. I it very bi? Caue you aid it wa too

bi or the creen, i it like-

clInIc-1: Well, that becaue the creen

tiny, but um, robably, the head robably

about like that ize, omewhere like there.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: Um, it only about like thi ize.

Woman: Wow. so it look like a baby.

clInIc-1: It doe. It, well it doent exactly

look like a baby, caue it till like, you know

it kin i not comletely, like all the-

Woman: Oh, OK.

clInIc-1: -like, you know every inle layer,

but um, it baically doe look like a baby.

Woman: Wow. And are you there when they

do the abortion? I ue you wont be or

germantown. Never mind.

32:38

clInIc-1: Um, well I have been, but we never,

becaue when I tarted workin here, the lawalready aed lower than 23 week, I think or

22, I cant remember.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: It wa a lon time ao. But now we

only o u to 20 week and 6 day.

Woman: Oh, OK.

clInIc-1: But it really doent, it jut mall

there, very mall.

Woman: Very mall, OK.

clInIc-1: And Ive been to it. And we do an

injection on the rt day o the baby doent

eel anythin, um, when the rocedure

haen.

Woman: Oh.

clInIc-1: Yeah, baically we to it heart on

the 1t day, o when on the 4th day it come

out it not alive.

Woman: Oh, o the hot i what kill the

baby.

clInIc-1: Mm-hm.

Woman: OK. Do you tick it jut anywhere?

You tick it-

clInIc-1: In your belly. In your belly button.

Woman: Oh. Oh (hudder).

clInIc-1: You wont eel that. Youll jut eelthe rt rick on the, on the to o your kin,

and then that it.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: Like the ret i jut throuh the-

Woman: Oh. Everythin ele.

clInIc-1: Throuh the uteru. You dont have

any nerve there, o you wont eel that art.

Woman: so I wont eel anythin.

clInIc-1: You wont eel that.

Woman: OK. Will the, will the baby eel it?

clInIc-1: No. The mot likely, it ha numbin

olution in it too. so it robably jut onna

eel like it lowin down.

Woman: Oh, the hot ha numbin olution?

OK. so when you tick it in the baby, do you

tick it in like the head?

clInIc-1: He doe it, I think he doe it in the,like in the chet area, o it oe into the heart,

um, it really, I dont know how he doe it, but

he doe it with the ultraound and he make

ure that he oe into the riht ot, becaue,

um, I know that i you do it wron, there can


32/52


be comlication becaue o amnioamniot

amniotic fuid, (lauh) blah, you know what

Im talkin about.

Woman: (lauh) I do, I hear ya. I hear ya.

clInIc-1: He ha o much exerience.

Woman: What kind o comlication?

clInIc-1: Um, Im not ure, I think they can

be, becaue it uh, numbin olution, and alo

it ha another chemical that to to the heart

rate, o I dont-

Woman: Oh.

clInIc-1: I mean, it never haened to him,

but-

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: There alway rik with every

rocedure.

Woman: Riht. Riht. Wow. Will it take the

baby very lon to die?

clInIc-1: Um, uually u to 20 minute.

Woman: Oh, that quick. OK. And will I eel

like, death am or anythin?

clInIc-1: No, youll jut eel um, lack o

movement.

Woman: Oh, o when the baby to movin,

I know that it dead. Oh, OK.

clInIc-1: Uually you have a lot o movement

durin the day, or you know like, every other

hour.

Woman: Well it wa kickin while I wa llin

out the orm (lauh).

clInIc-1: Yeah, o youll to eelin that ater

it done.

Woman: Oh, all riht.

clInIc-1: Um, o let me o talk to him really

quick.

Woman: OK, do you want me to tay here?

clInIc-1: Ill have you in thi or me, jutinitial thoe 3 and then in, um, and then Ill

have you come u ront with me.

Woman: 26 week. Wow.

clInIc-1: I need your inature riht here.

Woman: Oh, orry.

35:32

clInIc-1: The rocedure actually moreimle than what it ound like, it jut a lot

o roce becaue we want to make ure

that you dont have any roblem doin it,

like dilatin your cervix o you dont have any

tear or anythin like that, o that why it

take o lon, but-

Woman: How do you et the baby actually

out?

clInIc-1: Um, he will do, he onna ive

you medication to induce labor, o we kee

you like 3, 4 hour on medication and then,

by the time youre done with all o that, the

renancy will come out almot on it own, o

that baically what we wanna do, jut or it to

come out, you dont have to uh or anythin.

Woman: Oh, I dont? I jut et to lay there?

(Lauh)

clInIc-1: He dilate your cervix.

Woman: Enouh thatand then doe the

doctor hel it out?

clInIc-1: I he ha to, i you jut, i it been

too lon durin the day, or youre in ain, or

i your water break and you jut, you know,

becaue can bleed out and all that.


33/52


Woman: No, we dont want that.

clInIc-1: I not, um, itll come out, like, on it

own.

Woman: But the, but the baby dead.

clInIc-1: Yeah.

Woman: OK.

clInIc-1: By the time that that haen, it

hould be dead.

Woman: so it jut like deliverin a normal-

clInIc-1: Baically, excet you dont have

to do anythin, and the ain i robably a

hundred time le than what you would do iyou were in labor.

Woman: OK. Oh, o it like a normal delivery

but with a dead baby.

clInIc-1: Yeah, baically.

Woman: Oh, OK. All riht, thank you. Oh,

orry.

Woman and clInIc WorKer leave room

clInIc-1: Do you have omebody that can

travel with you?

Woman: Yeah. I have a riend.

clInIc-1: And we can ive you your

medication.

Woman: Oh, riht.

clInIc-1: We like to edate our atient, that

way theyre not a uet durin it.

Woman: OK. But my riend will need to come

to germantown, riht?

clInIc-1: Yeah, he need to come with you.

Ill have you take a eat riht here.

Woman: Anywhere in articular?

37:13

Woman WaIts

another clInIc WorKer enters room

01:14:00

Woman: Oh, thank you.

clInIc-2: He, um, hell be in here in jut a

minute.

Woman: Oh, no roblem, thank you.

01:14:05

dr. carhart enters room

01:17:14

dr. carhart: (Removed or privacy)?

Woman: Ye, hi.

dr. carhart: Hi, Im Dr. Carhart, how are

you?

Woman: Nice to meet you.

dr. carhart: It ood to meet you too.

Woman: Thank you o much, oh, you want

me to it here?

dr. carhart: Oh no, youre ne where you

are. Um, a coule quetion. You drove all the

way rom south Dakota?

Woman: I did. A riend and I road-tried it. It

want too bad. About 3 hour.

dr. carhart: Yeah. My dauhter oin

u there tomorrow. she, um, he breed and

how hore and the vet he ue i rom

south Dakota.


34/52


Woman: Oh, wow.

dr. carhart: From, uh, sioux Fall, actually.

Woman: Breed and how, that ound

acinatin.

dr. carhart: Yeah, but it, it a ull-time

job, o-

Woman: I can imaine.

dr. carhart: We have, or he ha about 80

hore, o-

Woman: 80 hore? Where do you kee 80

hore?

Dr. Carhart: Oh we have a arm.

Woman: (lauh)

dr. carhart: We have a lare barn, a ew

maller barn.

Woman: Ha he alway been into hore?

dr. carhart: Yeah, ince he wa about 5.

I mean we, the amily wa in it when, but he

ot it tarted when he tarted wa, robably

ridin when he wa 3, actually.

Woman: Wow.

dr. carhart: Then he tarted howin

when he wa 5.

Woman: Well that excitin. sound un.

dr. carhart: so, um, theyve ot thi down

a a etal indication, there nothin wron

with the baby that you know o, i there?

Woman: Nothin that I know o.

dr. carhart: OK, I dont know where that

came rom or how that ot in here, but Ivenever had a etal indication that want within

2 or 3 day o what he thouht he wa, o I-

Woman: Doe that mean, etal indication-

dr. carhart: Mean there omethin

wron with the baby and that why youre

terminatin.

Woman: Yeah. No.

dr. carhart: Jut, jut ure-

Woman: purely thi i what I wanna do.

dr. carhart: And here (couh) we cannot

do it, but in Maryland we can do it, in act the

only lace where it can be done riht now

i Maryland, um, Boulder, Colorado, and uh,

Albuquerque.

Woman: That it?

dr. carhart: That it in the country, theonly 3 that o over 26 week.

Woman: Wow, OK.

dr. carhart: Um, otherwie the otion are,

you know, arentin or adotion, or any o

thoe.

Woman: No thank you.

dr. carhart: OK (lauh). Um-

Woman: That why I wanted to meet withyou thouh, caue I heard, ince you were

here, and Ill ee you next week.

dr. carhart: That ne, um, we tart on

sunday in sioux Fall. U, youre in sioux

Fall.

Woman: Youll come and home viit?

dr. carhart: (Inaudible) I will come to your

houe and do thi, in sioux Fall. That would

be really ood, I cant o over 14 or 16 there.

Um, but we um, need to have you tart, at 26week, or actually no, we could do Monday

mornin, i you want to.

Woman: OK.


35/52


dr. carhart: Um, the mechanic are, and we

can et you et et u with NAF or hel with

or thi all, about undin-

Woman: Yeah, but I think I manaed to ull

the money toether. I dont know now at 26

week.

dr. carhart: 26 I think it like $6500 or

omethin like that.

Woman: Oh, OK.

01:20:21

dr. carhart: A lot o dierence. Um, but

they, they can hel you with the rice, and

I could be o by $2,000 or $3,000, I dont

know. I know-

Woman: so dont tell them you quoted me

thi (lauh)

dr. carhart: You can tell them but theyll

lauh at you becaue they know that I dont

have a clue (lauh).

Woman: OK, OK, air enouh (lauh).

dr. carhart: Um, caue I dont, I never

quote rice. so, um, but we certainly can et

you et u with National Abortion Federation

and ee what undin they can come u with.

All deend on your houehold income and

the irl know how to hel ure that out.

Woman: Oh, OK.

dr. carhart: Um, but we would need you

there rom Monday throuh Wedneday niht.

Woman: All riht.

dr. carhart: The quetion whether you fy

or drive, um, it almot cheaer and eaier,

even i you rent, how old are you?

Woman: 27.

dr. carhart: OK, o you can rent a car here.

Woman: Yeah.

dr. carhart: It would be better to rent a car

here and drive there and back with a rental-

Woman: Wow. OK.

dr. carhart: -than fy in and rent a car

there. You have to have a car there. And I jut

aid $300, $292 or 4 day or the car, and it

wa almot a much a the airlane ticket wa.

Woman: That a fyin ticket, yeah (lauh).

dr. carhart: And um, o I would call like the

local rental car and jut et, you dont need

to tell them youre oin to Wahinton orwhatever, but you jut tell them you need a

car, make ure it ha unlimited mile.

Woman: OK. All riht. Unlimited mile.

dr. carhart: You have a credit card, riht?

Woman: Ye.

dr. carhart: OK.

Woman: And I have a riend who will be

oin with me, o.

dr. carhart: OK, that erect. so it an

eay drive, I mean, I would ay you wanna

lit, you can do it in 24, 23 hour, ull o in

sioux Fall.

Woman: OK.

dr. carhart: You robably, you almot, no

you can o acro 90, cant you? Youre riht

cloe to 90. so you can eaily, yeah itll be 23,

24 hour or you, the ame a it i rom here.

Um, o, uh, I would think that would be aerto end one niht on the road, o you dont

et in there o late that youre tired and you

have an accident or omethin. But, um, the

rocedure i actually no dierent than 20 or

21 week here, it jut, we have to do an extra


36/52


day o dilation, it take 3 intead o 2 day o

dilation, o youd be there Monday, Tueday,

and Wedneday, OK?

Woman: And dilation i, i what?

dr. carhart: We have to ut, to oen u

your cervix o the renancy can come out.

Woman: Oh, OK, o the baby can actually et

out o me.

dr. carhart: Yeah, we, it will, youll deliver,

caue we dont, we try to do it intact becaue

the damae i, and the injurie and the

inection and everythin to your body are o

much le i youd delivered, than i wed o in

and take it out in iece, o um, what we dothe rt day i do an injection, that ut you

very comortable, but the doe or you, the

riht doe to make you comortable ut the

baby rooundly to lee.

01:23:33

Woman: Oh, OK.

dr. carhart: And then we do another

injection o, o medication into the baby o it

doe not wake u.

Woman: OK, o rooundly mean like, all the

way?

dr. carhart: Well no, well, ye, it will

not, but that rom the econd injection,

no, becaue i, i it wa on lie uort, i it

want attached to you, which i comlete lie

uort, it would die rom the rt one.

Woman: so, a baby at thi ae, what am I, 26

week?

dr. carhart: 26.

Woman: Could not urvive? I it wa

delivered?

dr. carhart: I it came out, oh yeah, it

robablyrobably could, robably. It would

be a 50/50 thin, robably.

Woman: Oh, oh, OK.

dr. carhart: But were OK, we can do by

law in Maryland, we can o to 28 week, o.

Woman: Oh, OK. so Im OK.

dr. carhart: Yeah, youre, youll t within,

that what I ay, we can do electively, we can

do thi electively in-

Woman: great. great.

dr. carhart: That what I wa ayin.

There only 3 tate where we can do thielectively.

Woman: Colorado-

dr. carhart: And 2 other, yeah. Colorado,

New Mexico, and you can call them, but I

know Warren rice-

Woman: Whoe rice?

Dr. Carhart: The Boulder, Colorado, will be

almot double what our are, robably.

Woman: Doctor, Dr. Warren?

dr. carhart: Warren Hern.

Woman: OK, Warren Hern, OK.

dr. carhart: And then the 2 irl in

Albuquerque, which i really about the ame

ditance rom u rom you, i, I dont know

anythin about their ricin, they, they tarted

workin with Dr. Tiller, ater I wa already

down there with him, o-

Woman: You worked with Dr. Tiller?

dr. carhart: Yeah, or 12 year, 11 year and

a hal.

Woman: Wow.


37/52


dr. carhart: Till he wa hot, and o, and

they were, one o them worked with him or

7 year, one o them or 5. so we worked a a

team, the 4 o u.

Woman: Oh, o you worked with the doctor

in Colorado?

dr. carhart: No.

Woman: No, oh, Dr. Tiller.

dr. carhart: Dr. sella and Dr. Robinon,

in Albuquerque. But Warren and I have been

riend or 22 year, or, god now, more than

that, almot 40 robably. seem like orever.

But the rik-

Woman: Are there, o there only our o you

that do-

dr. carhart: There are only our doctor

doin over 26 week.

Woman: Why are there only our?

dr. carhart: Caue nobody elell do it

(lauhin).

Woman: Oh.

dr. carhart: And there not that manydone, there robably not 500 eole over 26

week in a year that terminate in thi country.

Woman: so you, you dont ee a lot o

women like me?

dr. carhart: Well, aw our thi week.

Woman: OK, at 26 week?

dr. carhart: Or more.

Woman: All riht, o Im not unuual.

dr. carhart: No, not at all. Um, but that

only becaue nobody ele doe them and

they come to u, but you know, each o u

robably ee in the averae about 20 a month,

o that 80 a month, o maybe it 1,000 a

year that are done over 26, that may, I think

it like 2 or 300 that are over 30, o.

Woman: 2 or 300 over 30 week. Oh, OK.

dr. carhart: But theyre all becaue o etal

abnormalitie.

Woman: so no one chooin an abortion at

30 week who

01:26:14

dr. carhart: Not really, unle they have

a medical, Ive ot one irl that we have to

do thi about, he in heart ailure already

rom the renancy o were, were eein

her thi week here, and that who I thouht

maybe you were. But I think he onna tart

tomorrow, o. But anyway, the rocedure i

jut, um, ater we do the injection in the baby,

that take about 2 hour beore itll not, it jut

doe not wake u rom the medicine that

make you leey.

Woman: Oh, OK.

dr. carhart: And um, the we will ut

laminaria in your cervix o it tart to oen andwell tart out the rt day well end u with a

cervix about the ize o your thumb and well

ut little laminaria in that, OK?

Woman: All riht.

dr. carhart: By the next day thatll be about

an inch in diameter.

Woman: OK.

dr. carhart: And then well take them out

and ut in more, and the next day itll be aboutan inch and a hal, and then the nal day well

ut in more, and they end u to be about 2

inche, which i not quite-


38/52


Woman: That bi? Im not ood with

meaurement. Like that. OK, o, and the

baby-

dr. carhart: Will come throuh, itll

comre down and come throuh that

becaue it not alive.

Woman: so when you ay comre down-

dr. carhart: Jutitet ot, like muhy

(make quihin ound), o youyou uh it

throuh.

Woman: so what make the baby muhy?

(Lauh)

dr. carhart: The act that it not alive, or

two or three day.

Woman: Oh, o Ill have a dead baby in me?

dr. carhart: For 3 day, yeah.

Woman: Will it tart to decay or omethin?

dr. carhart: No.

Woman: Oh, OK (lauh).

dr. carhart: Not, it very, very minimal i it

doe, becaue there no bacteria there.

Woman: Oh, OK.

dr. carhart: so it like uttin meat in a

Crock-pot, OK, it doent et, it doent et

broke, but it jut et oter, it doent et

inected or-

Woman: OK, o the dead baby in me i like

dr. carhart: It jut

Woman: like meat in a Crock-pot.

dr. carhart: pretty much, yeah, kinda

much.

Woman: All riht. All riht.

dr. carhart: In a low cooker.

Woman: Then what wa it that killed it?

dr. carhart: The injection that we do.

Woman: The rt one?

dr. carhart: The econd one.

Woman: On, the econd one, the econd one

that I dont et. I et the leein one.

dr. carhart: Itll o throuh your tummy,

but into the baby, and you wont et that

medicine. I the medicine ot into your blood

by accident, it the ame medicine that we

would ive you i you came in in heart ailure

in a clinic, o it would not hurt you at all.

Woman: Oh.

dr. carhart: so that, I dont ue the one, the

KCL, we dont ue that.

Woman: I dont know what KCL i.

dr. carhart: Um, it, well it jut the other

thin that eole ue. potaium chloride.

Woman: OK.

dr. carhart: Um-

Woman: so thi one, you tick it in like the

head?

dr. carhart: No, in the tummy, in the chet,

omewhere in the baby. Or i we can, even i

we ut it in the amniotic fuid, eventually it

et into the baby, it will work wherever, but it

take loner o we et like one le day o the

etal, the baby not bein alive.

Woman: I ee, o you tick the hot either

into the baby or into the ac and it will then,

like, inet it or breathe it in.

dr. carhart: (Inaudible) inet it. The

amniotic fuid that, that in and around the

baby i created by the urine rom the baby,

but then it re-drink that all the time and that


39/52


what make the intetine, intetinal ytem

develo. so that, i the kidney are, i the

kidney in the baby are ailed and you dont

roduce the amniotic fuid then the whole

dietive tract never really develo.

01:29:26

Woman: That kind o acinatin.

dr. carhart: It all kinda (inaudible)

acinatin, yeah.

Woman: Wow. so the baby drink the

amniotic, OK, which i it urine (lauh).

dr. carhart: And it, I mean it come,

ome o it i lama rom, you know, rom the

initial, but mot o it i the urine that the baby

roduce and then it et reltered, but it all

terile, o you know there no bacteria there.

Woman: That, very dierent i I wa drinkin

my own urine (lauh).

dr. carhart: That would not be a ood idea.

Woman: No (lauh). That i not aealin.

OK, o i that on the rt day, there are 2

hot, and that i what kill the baby.

dr. carhart: And then well ut the

laminaria in.

Woman: And then you ut thi in. And then

will it, will it take very lon toto die?

dr. carhart: It, mot o the time it take

about an hour and a hal to two hour.

Woman: OK.

dr. carhart: sometime i we et a lot o it

into the circulation itll be 10, 15, 20 minute,

but that very, very rare.

Woman: OK, o a coule hour. Will I eel like

death am or anythin? You know-

dr. carhart: No, you wont eel anythin

like that.

Woman: OK, ood. Caue I eel it kick now.

dr. carhart: The medicine, no, yeah riht,

but actually, the medicine that we ive you

ut it to lee, where there are no, we

wont even ee etal movement when we do

anythin.

Woman: OK.

dr. carhart: Normally that, it a I aid,

when I mean rooundly alee, I mean it

deely anethetized.

Woman: OK.

dr. carhart: It would, without, i it want

ettin it oxyen rom you, it wouldnt live.

Woman: so i you, i it didnt et that rt

hot, what would haen then? That, that

leein hot?

dr. carhart: Yeah, I mean Ive done ome

where women cant have that hot i theyre,

it cant jut, you know, Im ure the baby eel

the needle tick - i the baby eel anythin

Woman: Oh.

dr. carhart: and I truly dont believe that it

doe at 26 week.

Woman: Oh, you dont think the baby eel,

OK.

dr. carhart: I dont think, you know, and

certainly doent eel anythin a ainul a

birth and you have every riht, we know he

ha to do that.

Woman: I birth ainul or a baby?

dr. carhart: I think o.

Woman: I dont know. I cant remember

(lauh).


40/52


dr. carhart: Yeah, I cant either. And none

o them do, o nobody care.

Woman: so it would, it would tart, could eel

ain, the baby could eel ain at birth, but it

wont eel ain at thi oint? At 26 week?

dr. carhart: Well, we dont really think that

it eel ain at birth either, in, you know, today

in a lot o culture they do circumciion with

no anethetic at all, and the baby crie or

about a minute and then it to cryin.

Woman: Oh.

dr. carhart: I, I, you know-

Woman: What dierent about-

dr. carhart: I dont know.

Woman: I dont know, OK. OK, o that the

rt day, um, o the hot-

dr. carhart: And the econd day we take

out, I mean ater the 2 hot, then we are,

uually ut the laminaria in rt, and then

do the h

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