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matko meštrović

UMJETNOST NE MOŽE BITI INDIFERENTNA

ART CANNOT BE INDIFFERENT

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razgovarali u zagrebu u lipnju 2006. i lipnju 2007. / interviewed in zagreb in june 2006 and june 2007 by MAROJE MRDULJAŠ, FEĐA VUKIĆ

oris

Iz naše perspektive, onako kako doživljavamo temeljna opredjeljenja i točke uporišta vašeg sagledavanja su­vremenog svijeta, usudili bi se reći da su danas teorijski i kritički možda aktualniji nego ikada prije. Imali ste prilike 2006. biti u Londonu na izložbi Modernizam – dizajniranje novog svijeta 1914.-1939. Čini nam se da bi nas Vaš komentar te izložbe mogao dobro uvesti u ocrtavanje konteksta u kojem se nalazimo danas. Otuda onda možemo povući neke sonde u prošlost.

Matko Meštrović jedan je od najistaknutijih kulturnih radnika u Hrvatskoj s dugotrajnim stažem u raznim područjima, od likovne teorije i kritike do analize društvenih kretanja. Razmjerno je dobro poznat Meštrovićev doprinos u iniciranju i aktivnom sudjelovanju u Novim tendencijama, kao što su neosporni i njegovi veliki napori da se dizajn u Hrvatskoj konstituira kao kritička djelatnost koja u obzir uzima svu širinu problematike formiranja ljudske okoline. No, Meštrović je intelektualac velike energije kojega posebno karakterizira sposobnost interdisciplinarnog promišljanja pa se njegov rad nikako ne zaustavlja na likovnosti, nego se neizbježno usmjerava prema razumijevanju temeljnih problema suvremenog društva. Usprkos globalnoj društvenoj situaciji u kojoj se pojam humanizma briše iz vrijednosnih sustava, Meštrović i dalje duboko vjeruje u mogućnost društvenog progresa, što ga čini dragocjenim kritičkim misliocem i poticajnim sugovornikom.Matko Meštrović is one of the most prominent cultural figures in Croatia, with a long career in areas ranging from the theory and criticism of visual arts to the analysis of social developments. He is well known for his contribution to the founding and activities of the New Tendencies, and certainly for his great effort to organize design in Croatia as a critical activity that considers the formation of the human environment in all its aspects. But Meštrović is an intellectual with great energy and the particular ability of interdisciplinary thinking. His work does not stop at the visual arts, but unavoidably focuses on the understanding of the fundamental problems of contemporary society. Despite the global social situation in which the idea of humanism has been banished from value systems, Meštrović still deeply believes that social progress is possible, which makes him a precious critical thinker and a motivating speaker.

oris

From what we know about the basic positions and stances of your view of the contemporary world, they could be theoretically and critically more rele­vant today than ever before. You saw the exhibition “Modernism: Designing a New World 1914-1939” in London in 2006. We believe that your comment on the exhibition could sketch the context in which we find ourselves. Then we could probe the past.

fotografija / photo by Damil Kalogjera

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meštrović

Izložba je prije svega za širu javnost neobično bogat i konden ziran prikaz, predstavl­jena je iznimno dobro odabrana gra đa sakupljena iz petnaestak zema lja. Tematska razrada i interpretacija u svakom je smi­slu autorska, ali na razini zadat­ka. Ono što je meni zapelo za oko, naro čito ako gledate po­pratne teks tove, nova je prosud­ba kulturnih i civilizacijskih nastojanja i po stignuća u razdoblju od 1914. do 1939. godine. I ta prosudba nije posve interesno neopredije ljena. Ona u prvome redu uva ža va veliko potencijalno utopijsko značenje toga zbivanja u projektiranju i modernom oblikovanju. I tu utopiju čak idejno razvrstava diferencirajući pri tome i ne ke političke orijentacije. Jasno se vidi da je i fašizam bio jedna utopija, ništa manje nego novi svijet Bauhausovih nastavljača u Americi. Ipak, to nije povijes­no-kritička analiza nego u pr-vom redu jedna velika atrakcija, priređena u ustanovi koja je p o j a m k o n z e r v a t i v n o g a svjetona zora. Po mome razumi­jevanju, londonski Victoria & Albert Mu se um takva je usta­nova i u mu zeološkome pogledu i po golemim zbirkama umjet­ničkog blaga, iz svih povijesnih razdoblja i krajeva svijeta, tre­tiranog na posve staromodan način. U tome ambijentu, dakle, odjed­nom susrećete ovakvu koncen­traciju najlucidnijih viđenja o životu i radu čovjeka u moder­nom društvu, projiciranih u obli kovnu praksu. To izgleda pomalo začuđujuće i zbog da-našnjih krajnje ishitrenih obli­kovnih postupaka što ih potiče vladajuća neoliberalna doktri­na. Spram njih neka asketska rješenja, na primjer kuhinje iz 20-ih ili 30-ih godina, koja prin­cip racionalnosti dovode do

meštrović

The exhibition is primarily a very good and succinct presentation for the wider public; it shows excellently chosen material from around 15 countries. The development of the themes and interpretations is authorial in every sense, but it is on that level. What caught my eye, espe­cially if you read the explanatory texts, is the new valuation of cultural and civilizing efforts and achievements in the period 1914-1939. And it is not com­pletely disinterested. It primarily acknowledges the great poten­tial utopian value of the phe­nomenon in design and modern construction. It even classifies utopia, differentiating between certain political orientations. It is clear that fascism was a uto­pia no less than the new world of the followers of Bauhaus in America. Still, it is not a histor­ical/critical analysis, but a big attraction more than anything, prepared in an establishment that embodies the conservative world view. As I see it, the Victo­ria & Albert Museum in London is such an establishment both as a museum and as a huge collection of artistic treasures from all historical periods all over the world, treated in a very old-fashioned way. And such a setting suddenly welcomes a gathering of the most lucid visions of the life and work of man in modern society, embodied in the design prac­tice. This looks a bit surprising because of the very superficial design procedures that are pro­moted by the dominant neo-lib­eral doctrine. In comparison, some ascetic solutions, such as the kitchens from the 1920s or 1930s, pushing the rationality principle to its extreme, become a kind of a pedagogic example of thorough and systematic thought. It is edifying to see how

kra ja, postaju u stanovitom smi slu pedagoški uzor studioznog i sustavnog promišljanja. Poučno je vidje­ti što je sve na tom tragu bilo razvijeno do visokog civiliza cijskog standarda u spomenutom razdoblju, a danas je u potrošačkoj rastrošnosti posve obez vri-jeđeno. No, možda je baš zbog toga pojava ove izložbe simp tomatična. Koliko mi je poznato, ona nije najavl­jivana na velika zvona, ali je očito da je autorski tim imao otvorena sva osjetila za nasušnu potrebu svije ta danas: potrebu za utopijom. Bez obzira kako i gdje tu potrebu možemo identificirati, ona zacijelo još nije dovoljno određena i artikulirana. Ali zasićenje pseu­dovrijednostima traži dublju crtu sabiranja i epohalnu ocjenu: što je nestalo, a treba da bude, čega je previ­še, a ne treba da bude, ni toliko, ni tako.

oris

Rekli bismo da ste vrlo dobro naznačili podtekst ove lon­donske izložbe o modernizmu kao potrebi za utopijom. S obzirom na to da ste Vi toj potrebi u svojoj aktivnosti i sami dali stanoviti doprinos, htjeli bismo Vas pitati o vremenu vašeg formiranja, pogotovo studiranja na fakultetu. Što je Vas formiralo, što je utjecalo na Vas?

meštrović

To mi je vrlo teško reći. Mislim da je postojala stanovita vokacija koju je negdje u ranu jesen ili pred ljeto 1952. godine, u razgovoru za prijemni ispit, prepoznao tadaš­nji asistent na studiju povijesti umjetnosti, Radoslav Putar. Dao mi je do znanja da je ugodno iznenađen. Kasnije smo postali drugovi po novinarskoj profesiji. On je izgubio mjesto asistenta na fakultetu i nastavio raditi kao suradnik Narodnog lista, likovni kritičar. Ja sam dobio 1956. godine novinarsko mjesto na Radio stanici Zagreb, u kulturno-umjetničkoj redakciji, također kao likovni kritičar. Na tim zadacima smo se često susretali, u Beogradu ili negdje drugdje. Dakle, mogu reći da je u mome stručnome formiranju nepo­sredan uzor bio Radoslav Putar. Cijenio sam njegovu metodičnost, možda sam i doslovce slijedio njegov način analitičkog prikazivanja u prvim svojim pokuša­jima, što je normalno. Međutim, na njegovu moralnu stranu, koja je iznimno čvrsta i čista, gledao sam kao na nešto što uvijek može biti oslonac za moje vlastite dileme ili nesporazume.U idejno-teorijskom pogledu to ne bih mogao reći. Postojao je i spontani razvoj. U meni je bila vrlo jaka misaona veza između kršćanstva i komunizma. U dje­tinjstvu sam stjecajem okolnosti bio istinski vjernik. Doživljavao sam u nekim kriznim momentima svoga života, u ratu i bolesti, silnu potrebu za duhovnošću. Još je jedan važan motiv u mojoj svijesti povezan s time, osjećaj za pravičnost i pravednost. Međutim, ideološki nisam bio opredijeljen, intuitivno sam bio za nešto drugo, nešto posve novo. Moji roditelji su iz nižih

much in that vein was developed to a high civiliz­ing standard in that period, only to be completely trodden down by today’s consumerism. But maybe this is precisely what gives another meaning to this exhibition. As far as I know, it was not hyped in advance, but the team of authors obviously felt the dire need of our world: the need for a utopia. However and wherever we notice that need, it still seems not to be defined and articulated enough. But the saturation with pseudo-values requires a deeper unifying principle and an epochal valuation: what disappeared although needed and what flourishes although unneeded in such quality or quantity.

oris

You aptly described the subtext of the London modernism exhibition as the need for a utopia. Since your activities contributed in a way to that need, let us ask you something: what about your formative years, especially as a student? What formed you, what influenced you?

meštrović

I find it very hard to say. I think my vocation was rec­ognized during the interview for the entrance exam, in the early autumn or spring of 1952, by Radoslav Putar, who was an assistant at the department of art history. He told me he was pleasantly surprised. Later we became fellow journalists. He lost his job as an assistant and worked for the paper Narodni list as an art critic. In 1956, I became a journalist at Radio Zagreb, in the section for culture and art, also as an art critic. We often met on assignments, in Belgrade or elsewhere. I can say that Radoslav Putar was a direct example for my professional formation. I admired his methodical work, maybe I even literally followed his method of analytical presentation in my first attempts, which is nor­mal. And I saw his very strong and pure morals as something to rely on during my own dilemmas or misunderstandings.It did not apply to my ideas or theory, however. There was also a spontaneous development. I felt a strong spiritual link between Christianity and communism. In my childhood, I happened to be a true believer. In the moments of crisis in my life, in war or disease, I felt a great need for spirituality. This is related to another important aspect of my mind: the sense of justice. But I did not choose a specific ideology, I intuitively sought something else, something new. My parents came from the lower social classes, so I understandably sided with the “socialist revolution”, as it was called.

Alvar Aalto, Ekspe-rimentalni reljef / Experimental relief, 1933.

Giso 404 svjetiljka za klavir / piano lamp, 1928., J. J. P. Oud (1890., Purmerend – 1963., Wassenaar, Nizozemska /The Netherlands)

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socijalnih slojeva i razumljivo je da sam se identifici­rao s onim što se nazivalo socijalistička revolucija.

oris

Vi ste ipak proveli drugu polovicu pedesetih godina pa onda i prvu polovicu šezdesetih, što je obilato doku­mentirano u knjizi Od pojedinačnog općem, kao vrlo aktivni kritičar. Kako ste tada djelujući u javnom mediju gledali na ulogu kulture?

meštrović

Moram u tome smislu istaknuti važnost otvorenih granica. Prvi put sam bio u inozemstvu za Božić 1953. godine, bila je to kolektivna studentska ekskurzija koju je vodila Vera Pintarić u Beč. Drugi put sam išao samostalno. Žarko Domljan i ja naprtili smo ruksak suhom hranom i krenuli u Veneciju, onda iz Venecije u Firenzu. Kod Firenze smo se razdvojili, ja sam išao dalje za Sienu. Zavolio sam putovanja i koristio sam svaku prigodu da pođem na poneki važan skup, od Venecijanskog bijenala do Trijenala u Milanu. Posje­tio sam i Documentu u Kasselu još 1959. godine. Bez pomoći redakcije u kojoj sam imao stalno zaposlenje, to ne bi bilo moguće.Naročito je Trijenale na mene mnogo utjecao, otvorio mi je vidike. Tamo sam mogao vidjeti brojne tematske izložbe urbanizma i arhitekture, talijanske, europske, svjetske, i krupne ličnosti u izvanrednim prezenta­cijama. Tamo sam upoznao i HfG, ulmsku visoku školu za oblikovanje, bila je cjelovito prikazana na XII. Trijenalu 1960. godine. Shvatio sam koliko je projektna djelatnost važna za problem društvenog i civilizacijskog razvitka, pa sam to naravno uključivao u svoj kritičarski program.Ako se mogu zadržati na temi moga intelektualnog formiranja, ispričat ću jedan događaj iz 1968. godine. To je uopće čudesna godina, nema mjeseca u kojem se te godine nešto važno za mene nije desilo. Ali, ovo je bio slučaj osobit. U ranu jesen 1968. godine u Bor­deauxu, međunarodna udruga likovnih kritičara AICA imala je svoju godišnju skupštinu i prigodni simpozij s temom: Umjetnost i televizija. Putar je bio nekim povodom u Kanadi, u Vancouveru. Po povratku je ve­oma lijepo pričao o svojim doživljajima i meni je dao McLuhanovu knjigu Understanding Media, jer se en­gleskim nije služio. Kad sam vidio koja je tema simpo­zija, a ja sam član te udruge od 1959. godine, obratio sam se Ivi Bojaniću koji je bio novi generalni direktor Radiotelevizije Zagreb, pokazao sam mu poziv. Idi, rekao je bez daljnjega. Postavio sam neka pitanja, i sebi i općenito, o tome što se može reći o umjetnosti i televiziji, i koristio Marshalla McLuhana. Poslao sam referat nakon što je preveden na francuski, i doputovao u Bordeaux kasno navečer. Sutradan je započeo skup, predsjedavao je Giulio Carlo Argan

oris

You spent the late fifties and the early sixties as a very active critic, which is amply documented in the book From the Particular to the General. Working in a public medium, how did you see the role of culture?

meštrović

Here I must point out the importance of open borders. My first trip abroad was for Christmas 1953. It was a student group excursion to Vienna, led by Vera Pintarić. I went on my second trip by myself. Žarko Domljan and I filled our backpacks with dry food and went to Venice and Florence. Then our ways parted since I continued to Siena. I loved travelling and used every opportunity to go to an important event, from the Venice Biennale to the Milan Triennale. I visited Documenta in Kassel back in 1959. It was only pos­sible because of my permanent job as a journalist.The Triennale was a great influence for me, opening new horizons. It showed me numerous thematic exhibitions of Italian, European and global archi­tecture and urban planning, as well as important people making great presentations. It was there that I learned about HfG, the design college from Ulm, which was thoroughly presented at the 12th Triennial in 1960. I realized the importance of design for the development of society and civilization, so I naturally included it in my critical outlook.If I can linger on the topic of my intellectual formation, I will tell you about an event from 1968. All in all, it was a wonderful year, with something important hap­pening to me every month. But this was special. In the early autumn of 1968, the international association of art critics, AICA, had its annual assembly in Bor­deaux and a symposium entitled: “Art and Television”. Putar was on an assignment in Vancouver, Canada. When he came back, he talked about his interesting trip and gave me McLuhan’s book Understanding Media, since he did not speak English. As an AICA member since ’59, I saw the topic of the symposi­um. I showed the invitation to Ivo Bojanić, the new manager of Zagreb Radio&TV. He immediately told me to go. I posed some questions, in general and to myself, on what I could say about art and television, relying on Marshall McLuhan. I sent my essay after it was translated to French and I arrived to Bordeaux late at night. The symposium started the next day. Giulio Carlo Argan was presiding and started by proposing a change in the order of presentations. To my surprise, he proposed that my essay should be read first. I calmly read my essay in French, returned to my seat and heard Argan say: “There, you had the opportunity to hear a genuine Marxist approach to our topic.” I was surprised by that comment. It was

i predložio na samom početku promjenu redoslijeda izlaganja. Na moje iznenađenje predložio je da ja prvi iznesem ono što sam sročio za tu prigodu. Bez kompleksa, pročitao sam na francuskom svoj prilog, krenuo prema svome mjestu i čuo Arganov komentar. Rekao je: “Evo, imali ste prilike čuti što je pravi marksistički pristup našoj temi.” Mene je ta kvalifikacija začudila, ali mislim da sam se tek tada počeo stvarno pitati imam li ikakve veze s Marxom koji je tada u nas doživljavan kao službena ideologija. Je li Ar­ganova ocjena točna ili nije, to me nije toliko zanimalo koliko što je zapravo taj Marx.

oris

U Vašoj kritičarskoj djelatnosti, gotovo od samih početaka, bila je razvidna ideja napretka i soci­jalnog angažmana, ugrađena i u poimanje umjetnosti.

meštrović

Da, jer se ne radi o umjetnosti za sebe, nego se radi o tome što se u umjetnosti novijega mo­dernog vremena može očitati o njenoj misiji u smislu samoga povijesnoga gibanja, kamo to ide svijet, društvo, društveni sustavi itd. Jer čak i kad glumi indiferentnost, neutralnost, umjet nost ne može biti indife­rentna. Ona govori iz korijena ljudskoga bića, pa i kad se izvo-di s najsloženijim tehničkim pomagalima. U pisanim doku­mentima svih važnijih autora moderne, riječ je o novom vre­menu koje nadilazi granice, prije svega podjele, što je ljuds-ko, a što je ne-ljudsko, ono što se čovjeka ne tiče. Ja sam to uvje renje na neki način prihva­tio, identificirao se s tim, pa nije bilo razloga, držao sam, da to ne prođe i u samome društvu. Premda se pod utjecajem raz­nih konzervativnih nahrupina,

the first time I really asked my­self if I had anything to do with Marxism, which was seen as the official ideology here. I was not wondering if Argan was right. I was asking myself what Marx was all about.

oris

Almost from the very start, your critical work included the idea of progress and social contribution as a part of the understanding of art.

meštrović

Yes, because it was not about art for its own sake. It was about the mission of modern art in the sense of historical change, the development of the world, socie­ty, social systems etc. Even when it pretends to be indifferent or neutral, art cannot be indiffer­ent. It speaks from the essence of humanity, even when created with the most complex technical instruments. The writings of all the important modernist authors talk about a new time that tran­scends borders, especially the difference between human and non-human or beyond human. I somehow accepted that belief, identified with it, so I saw no reason why it should not be accepted by society at large. But that wider dimension of art has been lost under the influence of various conservative trends. Look at the exhibitions of re­cent architectural production in Croatia. The quality of certain structures is high, up-to-date in every way. But all the structures are shown separately, isolated, outside their wider context. Such a structure can exist in Switzerland, or Italy, or any country where the architectural profession has up-to-date pro­cedures. But one should notice what it lacks in the sense of a wider functional sense. The most beautiful home is never

Vladimir Tatlin, “Novi Byt” (“Novi način života”/”New Way of Life”), 1924.

Frankfurtska kuhinja ilustrirana u Das Neue Frankfurt / The Frankfurt Kit­chen as illustrated in Das Neue Frank-furt, arhitektica /architect Margarete Schütte Lihotzky, 1927.

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ta šira dimenzija bavljenja umjetnošću zagubila, ne­stala. Pogledajte izložbe recentne arhitektonske produkcije u Hrvatskoj. Kvaliteta pojedinih objekata je izrazita, up today u svakom pogledu. Ali svi se objekti prikazuju izdvojeno, izolirano, izvan svojega šireg konteksta. Takav objekt može biti i u Švicarskoj, i u Italiji, u bilo kojoj od zemalja gdje postoji arhitektonska profesija koja je u svojim postupcima ažurirana. Ali i tu se mora vidjeti što nedostaje u smislu njenog šireg funkcijskog smisla. Nije ni jedan najljepši dom, dom sam po sebi. Do njega se odnekuda dolazi, on je ili pod Sljemenom ili na nekom otoku itd. Ako se izvlači iz toga konteksta, mora se postaviti pitanje zašto. Odgovor je jasan – zato jer je to rezultat jednog povlaštenog slučaja u društvenom pogledu koji se može, kao u nekoj niši, izdvojiti za sebe i zanemariti sve što se dalje ili šire u društvu zbiva.A istodobno imate tisuće i tisuće objekata divlje izgradnje koja postaje akutni problem, ali ostaje posve izvan profesionalne svijesti i moralne savjesti arhitekta. U jednom od nedavnih brojeva časopisa ČIP, bile su reproducirane dvije fotografije iz zraka, a prikazuju “maligne” izrasline na istočnom dijelu grada Zagreba, nekih 10 km², neregulirane gradnje. Je li to Zagreb, ili nije Zagreb. Što je Zagreb? Pokazao sam te fotografije nekim kolegama i zapitao ih: pogodite iz koje je od zemalja Trećeg svijeta ovaj snimak?

just a home. It is arrived at from somewhere, it stands under a mountain, on an island etc. If it is removed from its context, one should ask why. The answer is clear: because it is the result of a socially privileged case, which can be isolated in its niche, forgetting about everything that goes on in wider society.At the same time, you have thousands upon thousands of illegal constructions which are becoming a burning issue but remain outside the professional conscious­ness and moral conscience of architects. A recent issue of ČIP magazine showed two aerial photographs of “malign” lumps in the eastern part of Zagreb, some 10 km2 of chaotic construction. Is it Zagreb or not? What is Zagreb? I showed those photographs to some colleagues and told them: guess which third world country this comes from!Do not forget, this is happening in a city that was a role model of modern urban planning between the world wars. Weissmann, a citizen of Zagreb, was a co-author of the Athens Charter and one of the closest associates of Le Corbusier. In fact, his version of the Athens Charter is different from Le Corbusier’s which was published. On the ship returning from Athens to Marseille, they disagreed about some decisions from the conference. An issue of Arhitektura is dedicated to CIAM. It includes the documentation about the case. Today Zagreb can boast of nothing of the kind. It is hard and painful to talk about it.

Ne zaboravite, to se zbiva u gradu koji je bio jedan od uzora modernog urbanizma između dva rata. Zagrepčanin Weissmann bio je suautor Atenske po-velje i jedan od Le Corbusierovih najbližih suradnika. Dapače, njegova verzija Atenske povelje razlikuje se od Le Corbusierove. Oni su se na povratku iz Atene u Marseille na brodu razišli u nekim zaključcima s protekle konferencije. Jedan broj časopisa Arhitektura posvećen je CIAM-u. I tu se nalazi dokumentacija o tome slučaju. Danas se Zagreb ničim sličnim ne može pohvaliti. Teško je i bolno o tome govoriti.Ne zalazim na područja koja su narušena ili onemogu­ćena u jednom boljem razvojnom pogledu, primjerice Trešnjevka. Raduje me da se negdje ipak pokušavaju srediti veće cjeline, i ponovno vratiti urbanistička komponenta u arhitektonsku praksu.

oris

Nedavno je izašla knjiga kolegice Ljiljane Kolešnik, Između istoka i zapada, koja se bavi likovnom kritikom 1950-ih godina. Knjiga analizira kako društvene tako i likovne fenomene te donosi određena nova vrednovanja tog razdoblja u hrvatskoj umjetnosti, naročito u vezi EXAT-a 51, pitanja apstrakcije i njegovog doprinosa u kontekstu pojma avangarde.

meštrović

Prije svega bih čestitao kolegici na velikome poslu koji je obavila, knjiga je količinom građe i po prosudbama vrlo važna, prekretna možda, jer nitko se prije nje nije sustavno pozabavio procjenom značenja likovne kritike u tim bitnim godinama. Što se tiče ovih pitanja o apstrakciji, to nije dominanta njena bavljenja. Najz­načajnija je njena ocjena što je i kakav je bio moderni­zam za koji se likovna umjetnost, a u vezi s tim i čitav društveni sklop, u to doba zalagao pa i zanosio. Moja ocjena toga njenog pokušaja je pozitivna, afirmativna. Apstrakcija pak je prerazvučen, odveć neodređen pojam, termin, pa se dodaje poneka riječ, pridjev ili imenica, kao geometrijska apstrakcija ili action painting itd. Sve je to apstrakcija. Što to znači? Nije figuracija. Svoditi čitav problem na figurativno-nefigu­rativno, što je javnost tada najviše intrigiralo, naprosto je trivijalno, tako da je mnogo važnije razmotriti one programske momente koji su se izričito očitovali u dje­lovanju EXAT-a 51. što je kolegica Kolešnik učinila na radikalan način. Naime, ta je grupa poznata po svom manifestu koji je, makar literarno nedorađen, grub u apodiktičkim formulacijama, ipak jasno određen u artikulaciji nove uloge likovnosti i likovnog radni­ka, što s obzirom na tadašnji društveni kontekst ja posebno vrednujem. Ali, kolegica gleda iz povijesno šire perspektive pa dolazi do zaključka koji može biti iznenađujući. Vrijedi ga citirati: “Dakle, odgovor na

I am not going into areas that have been damaged or disabled from the aspect of a better development, like the quarter of Trešnjevka. I am glad that larger units are still being organized in some places, that the component of urban planning is returning into architectural practice.

oris

Your colleague Ljiljana Kolešnik recently published Between East and West, a book about the criticism of visual arts in the 1950s. The book analyses both social and artistic phenomena, providing some new valuations of that period in Croatian art, especially regarding EXAT 51, the issue of abstraction and its contribution within the concept of avant-garde.

meštrović

First of all, I congratulate my colleague on her great work. The quantity of materials and valuations makes the book very important, maybe even crucial, since she was the first to systematically examine the significance of the criticism of visual arts in that period. As for the issue of abstraction, it is not a major element of her work. Her most important valuation concerns the nature of the modernism promoted and even revered by the visual arts and the entire social system of that time. I think her effort is positive and affirmative. On the other hand, the term “abstraction” is too general, too vague, so people add a word, an ad­jective or a noun, such as geometric abstraction, action painting etc. All that is abstraction. What does it mean? It is not figurative. To reduce the entire problem to being figurative or non-figurative, which was most intriguing to the public at the time, is simply trivial. It is much more important to consider the programme aspects that were explicitly shown in the activities of EXAT 51, which was radically done by my colleague Kolešnik. In fact, that group is well known for its manifesto; although it lacks literary finesse and includes rough apodictic formulations, it clearly articulates the new role of visual arts and artists, which I find particularly valuable considering the social context of the time. But my colleague sees things from a wider historical perspective, so she reaches a conclusion that seems surprising. Let me quote it: “In fact, if we ask whether EXAT 51 was repeating the experiences of the historical avant-garde or acting upon them, the answer is clear: it was repeating them. Therefore, the true nature of that artistic project should be seen as solving the problem of co-articulating artistic and political forms.” (p. 153)

fotografija / photo by Damil Kalogjera

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pitanje je li u slučaju EXAT-a 51 riječ o ponavljanju ili djelovanju na temelju iskustava historijske avangar­de – odgovor je nesumnjivo – o ponavljanju. Stoga pravu prirodu toga umjetničkog projekta treba tražiti u razrješenju problema koartikulacije umjetničkih i političkih formi.” (str. 153)Iz tog uvida kolegica Kolešnik dolazi do najznačajn­ije, najsmjelije, završne ocjene u svojoj knjizi: prije Gorgone i Novih tendencija u hrvatskoj poslijeratnoj umjetnosti nije bilo avangarde. To se mišljenje posve kosi s ovim najnovijim događajem, izložbom “Avangar­dne tendencije u hrvatskoj umjetnosti”, pokušajem da se prikaže niz momenata u prošlostoljetnoj hrvatskoj umjetnosti koji su imali naznake moguće avangard­nosti. Moram priznati da je za svaku pohvalu takav pokušaj, no on iziskuje i dugoročniju studijsku obradu u pripremi i daleko kompletniji arsenal u prezentaciji. Jer ako je jedna, dvije ili tri fotografije u momentu nekog hrvatskog autora istureno nad općim nivoom te djelatnosti, značaj dosega koji je ostvaren u tome izrazito autorskom momentu nije vidljiv kada sam kontekst izostane. Utoliko je izložba manjkava.

oris

Vratimo li se na EXAT 51, važno je da se iz razmatranja ne izgubi njegov odnos prema dizajnu i prema arhitek­turi, gdje se uvode i vrijednosti naslijeđa Bauhausa. Čini nam se da je uloga EXAT-a 51 avangardna u smislu o kojem ste vi govorili, dakle u smislu uvođenja utopij-skog horizonta prema kojem se razvija ideja sintetske plastičke umjetnosti.

meštrović

Točno, fronta je važna, a ne ovaj ili onaj pomak. To je prethodna izložba Makovićeve grupe, obrada hrvats ke umjetnosti 1950-ih godina, jasno pokazala. EXAT nije bio stvar jedne grupice koja se ovako ili onako složi­la, nego je važan val kolektivnih društvenih emocija izazvan povijesnom mogućnošću da se neka vizija dogura do pitanja: do kuda ovo društvo može doći, da se vizija prisvoji kao nešto zaista moguće. I na toj velikoj fronti, od filma do arhitekture, od zgrada za znanstvene ustanove – Institut “Ruđer Bošković”, do velikih sajamskih hala, od mostova do cijelih mnogih gradskih četvrti. Sve to nije zasluga EXAT-a 51, ali je zasluga da tome kretanju pripada, kao što i ovo donekle može biti naznačeno u programu EXAT-a. Ali u svemu tome važni su autorski stavovi, važna je smionost, argumentacija ili uvjerenje i produktivna rasprava u društvu ako do nje može doći.

oris

EXAT 51 kao likovni program s teorijskog stanovišta u osnovi ostaje zatvoren unutar jednoga teksta, a to je tekst samoga manifesta. Pojavom Novih tendencija

This insight leads to the most important, most daring, final valuation in the book: before Gorgona and New Tendencies, there was no avant-garde in Croatian post-war art. This opinion is completely opposed to the latest event, the exhibition called “Avant-Garde Tendencies in Croatian Art”, attempting to show several phases in Croatian art in the last century that possibly had an avant-garde character. I must say that such an effort is praiseworthy, but it requires a longer scientific preparato­ry work and a much more comprehensive arsenal for the presentation. Because if one, two or three photographs in a phase of a Croatian author are above the general level of the time, the significance of what was achieved in that very original phase cannot be seen without the context. The exhibition is lacking in that respect.

oris

When we talk about EXAT 51, it is important to keep in mind its relation to design and architecture, where it also introduced the values inherited from Bauhaus. It seems that the role of EXAT 51 was avant-garde in the sense you mentioned, in the sense of introducing a utopian horizon for the idea of synthetic plastic art.

meštrović

Exactly, what matters is the front, not this or that achievement. It was clearly shown by the previous exhibition of the group of Maković, which presented Croatian art in the 1950s. EXAT was not the work of a little group that somehow got together, but an important wave of collective social emotions caused by the historical possibility of bringing a vision to the question: How far can this society go to adopt the vision as something really possible? On that great front, from film to architecture, from buildings for scientific estab­lishments (Ruđer) to large trade fair halls, from bridges to entire city blocks. All this is not the merit of EXAT 51, but its merit is to belong to that movement and to partly indicate this in its programme. In all this, what matters are the authors’ positions, what matters is the daring, the arguments or the belief, and a productive discussion in the society, if possible.

oris

From the standpoint of theory, EXAT 51 as a pro­gramme in visual arts remains closed within a single text: its manifesto. Appearance of the New Tenden­cies was a significant step forward, which you influ­enced in a significant way. The New Tendencies were international, including different trends in visual arts, and most significantly, they directly involved the theorists, developing a detailed theoretical platform. In that sense, we can talk about the relation between artistic production and the construction of a specific ideological position.

dešava se jedan značajan pomak na koji ste i vi bitno utjecali. Nove tendencije su internacionalne, uk­ljučuju različita likovna strujanja, a ono što je posebno važno, u njih su neposredno uključeni te­oretičari te se razvija elaborirana teo rets ka platforma. U tom smislu može se govoriti o povezanosti umjetničke produkcije i izgradnje određene ideološke pozicije.

meštrović

S vašom formulacijom nisam sretan, moram reći. Ne bih mogao reći da su moja promišl­janja tih događanja danas nakon toliko vremena zaključena. Ima jedan moment koji bih sada htio ilustrativno upotrijebiti. Za moju novu knjigu pod naslovom Raspršenje smisla: doktrinarni svijet na izmaku? kolega Darko Fritz preuzeo je na sebe napraviti njen prijelom, i likovnu opremu. U jednom momentu priređujući izložbu koja obrađuje 1960-e i početak 1970-ih godina u Zagre­bu, za jednu muzejsku ustanovu u Njemačkoj, Fritz je zatražio fotografsku dokumentaciju o djelovanju Gorgone koju sam dijelom imao. Dao sam mu nešto što nije publicirano dosad, snim­ke pokojnoga Branka Balića u momentu kad su članovi Gorgo­ne u prostorijama Gradske ga­lerije suvremene umjetnosti na Katarininom trgu sudjelovali u “ svečanom dočeku “ prvih radova Novih tendencija, i na tipično gorgonski način salutirali tome događaju. Funkcija Gorgone je bila da kaže nešto što se riječi­ma ne može reći. Ponašanjem, ritua lom, nekim nestandardnim, ne ambicioznim, nepreuzetnim dokumentom. Shvatio sam da je zapravo Gorgona prva prihvatila radove i ideje Novih tendencija, naročito u onom njihovom na­jmanje ortodoksnom aspektu, od Manzonija do Knifera, koji je na Makovićevoj izložbi “Avangardne tendencije” možda zaslugom i

meštrović

I must say I am not happy with your statement. I would not say that my thoughts on those events today, after so much time, are final. There was an event that I will use as an ex­ample. For my new book, called Dispersion of Meaning: The Fading out of the Doctrinaire World? my colleague Darko Fritz agreed to do the graphic design. When he was preparing an exhibition presenting the 1960s and the early 1970s in Zagreb, for a museum es­tablishment in Germany, Fritz asked for my part of the pho­tographic archive about the activities of Gorgona. I gave him things that were still un­published, such as the photos of the late Branko Balić on the day when the members of Gor­gona, in the premises of the City Gallery of Contemporary Art on Katarinski Square, participated in the “welcome party” for the first works of the New Tenden­cies (NT) and saluted the event in a typically Gorgonesque way. The function of Gorgona was to say something that cannot be expressed in words – through behaviour, a ritual, a non-standard, unambitious, non-presumptuous document. I realized that Gorgona was actually the first to accept the works and ideas of NT, especially what was the least orthodox about them, from Manzoni to Knifer, who is the most beautiful segment at Ma­ković’s exhibition “Avant-Garde Tendencies”, maybe due to the designers who set it up. In fact, Knifer can be found in both parts, the one about Gorgona and the one about NT, as their personal link. What I mean is the following: what is ideology here? The position of Gorgona is totally against ideology – its members saw that NT had no Petar Dabac, Picelj & Srnec –

Jean & Saša, 1971.

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dizajnera koji su postavljali izložbu, njen najljepši segment. Jer se upravo Knifer nalazi i u jednome i u drugome dijelu, u prikazu Gorgone i u prikazu Novih tendencija, dakle tu je i njihov personalni spoj. Hoću reći sljedeće – što je tu ideologija? Gorgonaški stav je apsolutno antiideološki – gorgonaši su vidjeli da u Novim tendencijama nema ideologije, barem ne one koju su odbijali ili ignorirali. Taj bitan moment nije prepoznat, nije dublje analiziran, a otvara i jedan uvid koji je značajan, a to je i kritička primjedba di­sertaciji Ješe Denegrija koji je izuzetno zaslužan što je integrirao dvije značajne pojave 1950-ih i 1960-ih godina, EXAT 51 i nove tendencije, dovodeći ih čak u neku izravniju vezu. Osim opće predispozicije koja postoji u kontinuitetu jednoga kulturnog ambijenta, izravne veze EXAT-a i Novih tendencija nema. I nisu predstavnici EXAT-a bili ti koji su prvi prepoznali ili saznali što je to novo na horizontu. To kretanje, a u tom smislu i čitav taj kompleks, traži potpuniju valorizaciju. No, nadam se da će tome pomoći nastojanja koja je pokrenuo kolega Fritz svojom pronicljivošću i nevje­rojatnom upornošću. Priprema se uskoro kompleksna izložba u Zentrum für Kunst und Medientechnologie (ZKM) u Karlsruheu, a prva probna verzija upravo je sada prikazana u Grazu. Obuhvaća čitavo razdoblje od 1961. do 1973. te uz NT uključuje i simpozije o kompjuterskim vizualnim istraživanjima i časopis

ideology, at least not one they refused or ignored. That important aspect was neither understood nor thoroughly analyzed, although it opens a significant insight; this is also a criticism of the dissertation of Ješa Denegri, whose great merit is that he integrated two important phenomena of the 1950s and 1960s, EXAT 51 and NT, and even related them more directly. Aside from the general conditions for the continuity of a cultural environment, there is no direct relation be­tween EXAT and NT. And the representatives of EXAT were not the first to recognize or understand the new developments on the horizon. Those developments, and that entire complex, require a fuller valuation. But I hope that it will be helped by the efforts initi­ated by my colleague Fritz with his sharpness and incredible perseverance. Soon there will be a complex exhibition in ZKM (Zentrum für Kunst und Medien-technologie) in Karlsruhe; the work in progress has just been presented in Graz. It covers the entire period from 1961 to 1973, including not only NT, but also the Computers and Visual Research symposia and Bit International magazine. I was very surprised when the great authority Peter Weibel in his introductory text in the catalogue promoted a new, more comprehensive valuation of the significance of what happened in Zagreb and the role of Zagreb at the time. In the book which I must mention, MediaArtHistories, published by MIT Press this year, the first contribution is Wei­

bel’s text discussing the algorithm as a notion equally present in science and in those methods of artistic programming that appeared in most works of NT. I recognized that algorithm in a small canvas by Almir Mavignier after reading Weibel’s text in that large book. In the traditional technique of canvas painting, he used a primitive instrument to place coloured dots, larger or smaller, in different nuances, according to a predefined programme. It was an algorithm, a sequence of explicitly defined instructions to make a work. Weibel said that NT involved the viewer in the game, if the objects permitted it. At the exhibition in Graz, the MID group from Milan has the most beautiful and technically perfectly arranged objects allowing the viewer to activate them and to enjoy the many possible combinations initiated by his or her interaction. It must be clarified that NT was not a closed unit. It was a living process with a noticeable evolution in the visual sense. From “New Tendencies”, to “New Tendency” as a singular, and to the final “Tendencies”, there were attempts to follow events, to get involved in them. Textually, I made no contribution to a more fixed idea of the movement, although attempts were made.

oris

We wanted to stress the role of the theorist and critic of visual arts as an active protagonist of NT, which was a new phenomenon in Croatia at the time, in step with trends in the international con­text. What is your personal experience as a kind of an initiator and catalyst?

meštrović

We became activists, coordinators as we used to call ourselves. We really tried to make an organization that would enable the collective activities of the movement, which was an illusion, but I will not linger on that. One should say something and let experience and time have their say on whether that utterance was right or wrong. I remember Morellet as a very important author, especially in the early years. In the text that Morellet included among the statements of other participants in the first exhibition, which is a part of the catalogue from ’61, he explicitly said that he upheld a scientific approach to art, not an intuitive one. It was simply wrong. Morellet himself – and this is the greatness of his gift – included a crooked branch of a tree in his geometrically conceived paintings. One of his cycles is even named Geometree, geometry and tree. Was it a confutation of his earlier statement? Or rather, what is irrational in that method? On the other hand, do not forget that internationally reputed scientists, not critics or art historians such as Giulio Carlo Argan, Udo Kultermann or Umbro Apollonio, but highly respected scientists such as Abraham Moles

Bit international. Bio sam jako iznenađen kad je veliki autoritet Peter Weibel u uvodnome tekstu ka­taloga afirmirao tu novu, cjelovitiju ocjenu značenja zbivanja u Zagrebu i ulogu Zagreba u to vrijeme. I u knjizi koju moram spomenuti, koja se pojavila ove godine u izdanju MIT Pressa, MediaArtHistories, prvi je Weiblov tekst koji govori o algoritmu kao pojmu jednako prisutnom i u znanosti i u ovim načinima umjetničkoga programiranja koji su se očitovali u glavnini radova Novih tendencija ili pojedinih grupa kao što su milanski članovi udruge MID. Ja sam i kod Almira Mavigniera na jednom malom platnu prepoznao taj algoritam nakon što sam pročitao Weibelov uvodni tekst u toj pozamašnoj knjizi. Tradicionalnom slikar­skom tehnikom na platnu, on je primitivinm sredstvom unosio po jednom unaprijed sročenom programu točke boje, veće, manje i u raznim nijansama. Dakle, to je algoritam, slijed eksplicitno definiranih instrukcija po kojima se rad izvodi. Nove tendencije po Weibelu uvukle su i gledatelja u tu igru, u onim objektima koji su to dopuštali. Na izložbi u Grazu grupa MID iz Milana ima najljepše i tehnički savršeno dotjerane objekte koji dopuštaju gledatelju da ih aktivira i da se uživi u velike mogućnosti kombinacija koje se njegovom interakcijom mogu pokrenuti. Treba pojasniti, ne postoje Nove tendencije kao zatvorena cjelina. To je jedan živi proces u kojem je evolucija u slikovitome smislu bila zamjetna. Od na­slova tendencije u množini, do tendencije na kraju ili Nove tendencije u jednini, pokušaji su da se prati, da se intervenira u sama zbivanja. Ni tekstualno, ja nisam ništa pridonio čvršćem idejnom fiksiranju pokreta, iako je bilo takvih pokušaja.

oris

Htjeli smo naglasiti ulogu teoretičara i likovnog kritičara kao aktivnog protagonista Novih tendencija što je tada nova pojava u Hrvatskoj, paralelna sa strujanjima u inter­nacionalnom kontekstu. Kakvo je Vaše osobno iskustvo kao svojevrsnog pokretača i katalizatora?

meštrović

Mi smo postali aktivisti, koordinatori kako smo se tada nazivali. Zaista smo pokušavali organizacijski omogućiti kolektivno djelovanje pokreta, što je bila jedna iluzija, ali ne bih se na tome zadržao. Treba nešto reći i pustiti iskustvu i vremenu da kaže svoje, je li to što je tada rečeno pogođeno ili je promašeno. Sjećam se Morelleta kao vrlo važnog autora, naročito početnih godina. U tekstu koji je Morellet dao među izjave i ostalih sudionika prve izložbe, što je sastavni dio kataloga iz 1961. godine, on izričito kaže da se zalaže za znanstveni, a ne intuitivni pristup umjetnosti. To je naprosto pogrešno. Prvi je sam Morellet, u tome je i veličina njegove darovitosti, u svoje geometrijski

Članovi Gorgone dočekuju radove Novih Tendencija / Gorgona members welcoming the works of the New Tendencies, Galerija suvremene umjetnosti / City Gallery of Contem­porary Art, Zagreb fotografija / photo by Branko Balić

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koncipirane slike ubacio krivu granu nekog drveta. Čak je i jedan ciklus nazvao Geometree, geometrija i drvo. Je li time svoju raniju izjavu porekao? Ili, što je iracionalno u tom postupku? S druge strane, nemojte zaboraviti da je među znanstvenicima internacio­nalnog značaja, ne kritičarima ili povjesničarima umjetnosti, kao što su bili Giulio Carlo Argan, Udo Kultermann ili Umbro Apollonio, nego među znanst­venicima visoke reputacije kakvu je imao Abraham Moles, interes za te pojave bio velik. Poslije sam čitao jednu Molesovu knjigu u kojoj on obrazlaže da u kreativnom procesu umjetnika i znanstvenika nema razlike. Tu se može onda vidjeti u kojoj mjeri su pojedine formulacije, teorijske ili kvaziteorijske, u zabludi, ili programska opredjeljenja također jed­nostrano definirana. Kad sam spomenuo znanstve­nike, ne smijemo zaboraviti Vladu Bonačića, iznimno darovitog znanstvenika iz Instituta “Ruđer Bošković” koji je, to je ova izložba u Grazu sada dobro pokazala, postao pasionirani umjetnik, koji svoju znanstvenu educiranost i osposobljenost koristi u promišljanju jedne izrazito likovne zamisli. To je jedinstveni slučaj da znanstvenik postaje umjetnik, u tome sklopu.

oris

Jedna od teza na kojima ste inzistirali ne samo u vri­jeme Novih tendencija nego i poslije jest povezivanje znanosti i umjetnosti, upućujući na istraživanje produktivnih načina razmjene i primjene iskustva tih dvaju područja ljudske djelatnosti. Govorili ste i pisali o scientifikaciji umjetnosti te o potrebi da znanost usvoji dostignuća umjetničkih praksi. Dakle, riječ je o dvosmjernom pro cesu koji bi objedinio te razdijeljene djelatnosti.

meštrović

Ta je ideja njegovana još i u Bauhausu. Ali, ne smije se doslovno shvatiti ne uvažavajući povijesne okol­nosti, podjelu i među ljudima i u ljudima. To je jedna trajna problematika koju neće apsolvirati ni naredne generacije, ali je očito da je zapadna civilizacija samu sebe onesposobila da se ta dva, recimo tako, impulsa u ljudskome bivanju pomire. Ona ih konstantno raspo­lučuje. Ne bih zalazio u to, ni adoracija istočnjačke misli, naročito kad se trivijalno i konvencionalno prenosi, neće nam tu puno pomoći. Ali, ja imam jednu praktičnu predodžbu čovjekova rasta. On je previše danas razvio sebe u širinu, unutarnji svijet je zane­maren, njegovanje unutarnjosti pretpostavlja rast u visinu, to su možda neki umjetnici i mislioci mnogo prije na svoj način sebi predočili ili nama naznačili. Upravo sam završio tekst za jedan kongres koji go­vori o pluralizmu u 21. stoljeću. I moja je teza, koju potkrepljujem radovima stanovitih znanstvenika, da pluralizam uopće nije tema prioritetnog značenja.

showed great interest in those phenomena. I later read a book by Moles where he explains that there is no difference between the creative processes of artists and scientists. It shows how certain theoretical or pseudo-theoretical formulations were wrong or how certain programme choices were unilaterally defined. Since I mentioned scientists, we should not forget Vla­do Bonačić, an exceptionally gifted scientist from the Ruđer Bošković Institute, who became a passionate artist, as shown by the exhibition in Graz. He uses his scientific education and competence to conceive an eminently visual idea. It is a unique case of a scientist becoming an artist in such conditions.

oris

One of the theses that you insisted upon, not only during NT, but also later, is the link between science and art, pointing to the research of productive ways to exchange and apply the experiences from these two areas of human activity. You talked and wrote about the “scientification” of art and about the need for science to adopt the achievements of artistic practices. It is a two-way process that should unite those separate activities.

meštrović

That idea was already cherished by Bauhaus. But it must not be taken literally, ignoring the historical

Jedan novi autor, mladi Nicholas Ruiz III, vjerojatno meksičkog porijekla, koji se oformio u New Yorku i tamo djeluje, pred koji mjesec objavio je knjigu Me-tafizika kapitala. To je najudaljenija teorijsko-kritička pozicija do koje je, po mom uvjerenju, suvremena misao dosegla: kapital je valuta ili tečaj životnoga kôda, i čovjek je danas kapital, i tretira se kao kapi­tal i koristi se kao kapital, ali i ćelija prema drugoj i prema svome okolišu, postupa na isti način. To ne znači da treba taj sveobuhvatni trend ili proces kapi­talizacije svijeta promatrati kao nešto što je sudbina života na Zemlji. Ma koliko beznadno slabašna danas bila misao suprotstaviti se kapitalizaciji i kapitalu, to je jedina misao spasa života koja danas mora važiti za sve koji suvremeni svijet promišljaju.

oris

Kako se kretalo vaše širenje interesa od područja umjetnosti prema globalnim problemima? To je teklo paralelno uz istraživanja vezana za teme kao što su dizajn koji se stavlja u kontekst problema okoline.

meštrović

Što je dizajn? Dizajn je nešto slično algoritmu, vi ne možete napraviti jedan artefakt a da niste unaprijed promislili njegovu funkciju i njegovu konstrukciju. Moles je imao jednu formulu – što je u tome uspjeh: povećanje upotrebne i snižavanje strukturalne kom­

circumstances, the divisions between people and within people. It is a permanent problem that will not be resolved by future generations either, but Western civilization has obviously given up on rec­onciling those two impulses in human existence. It is constantly dividing them. I will not go deeper into this; the adoration of Eastern thought, especially when communicated in a trivial and conventional way, will not help us much. But I have a practical vision of man’s progress. Mankind has developed by spreading out too much, neglecting the inner world; the care of the inner self assumes growth upwards, which some artists and thinkers perhaps visualized or showed a long time ago. I have just completed a text for a congress about pluralism in the 21st century. My thesis, supported by the works of certain scientists, is that pluralism is not really a priority. A couple of months ago, a young author Nicholas Ruiz III, probably from Mexico, who developed in New York and works there, published a book called The Metaphysics of Capital. In my opin­ion, it is the farthest theoretical and critical position reached by contemporary thought: capital is as the currency or exchange rate of the life code, man as capital, treated as capital and used as capital, but like a cell, treating other cells and its environment in the same way. It does not mean that the ubiquitous trend or process of global capitalization should be seen as the destiny of life on earth. No matter how hopelessly weak, today’s thought opposing capitalization and capital is the only life-saving thought, which is a must for everyone thinking about the contemporary world.

oris

How did you widen your interests from art to global issues? At the same time, you researched topics such as design, within the context of environmen­tal issues.

meštrović

What is design? Design is similar to an algorithm, you cannot make an artefact without first considering its function and construction. Moles had a formula about success: increased usage and reduced structural complexity. If you do not have an idea what to use and how to use it to succeed, you cannot make any instrument to help you. Even animals use objects as helpful instruments, but they do not create them. You can see young monkeys pulling worms from trees with thin branches; some birds do similar things. Man developed the basic idea, improved his abilities, but not enough in the sense of his own improvement. It created a gap that cannot be bridged by civilization; it is getting deeper, since the relation between the goal and the means has lost the relation towards

Mića Bašićević, Paysage de la guerre, 1970.

Sphère-trames, 1962., 3. Paris Biennale, Muzej moderne umjet­nosti Ville / Ville Museum of Modern Art, Pariz / Paris, 1963.

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man’s inner development. It has been externalized. Today, the superior consequences of that external domination threaten all life. For the first time, it is becoming clear that capital should be considered even before capitalism. In that sense, even Marx could be insufficient for such a deep insight. But Marx will remain forever as a fixation to be followed on the way to a higher activity. Marx did not make a difference between art and science. But it is a spiritual state, which enables the largest inner ho­rizon and the greatest happiness in life.

oris

The Ulm school (HfG) researched the possibility of overcoming the fragmentation of art and science in the context of a socially progressive programme. The school had great intellectual capacities and a clear idea of the need to find strategies to pro­ductively integrate design into society, but it did not save the school.

meštrović

When an establishment wants to continue what Bau­haus developed in the 1920s until it was stopped in 1933, and tries to do it 20 years later, in 1953, only to be stopped in 1968 in a similar way, what can you say about it today? That human learning, the best learning, is not respected. Do you know who was a guest lecturer at the Ulm school? Norbert Wiener, the founder of cybernetics. I do not intend to glorify the way in which that establishment was founded. But what matters are principles, especially interna­tionalism. Max Bill brought the Argentinian Tomás Maldonado and let him manage the school when he realized that some of Maldonado’s insights were above his own. Those are happy events, because evil can retreat, but it does not disappear. Let me ask you a question: how many times have our big companies changed their style or image in less than ten years? Do you know when the Lufthansa logo was designed? It was the work of the Ulm school; nobody would dream of changing it. Even social surroundings are the result of high-quality work, as well as cultural, economic, social and intellectual surroundings, everything that presents the whole. In the 1970s, Zagreb had university postgraduate studies in design; construction design studies that could be attended by architects or engi­neers, anyone who knew what construction design was; organizational studies that could be attended by economists, lawyers and sociologists; theoretical studies, for art historians or lawyers. Do you know that law, a special course in those studies, is a very important aspect of design activities? Those studies were terminated by a school reform, after only one

pleksnosti. Ako vi nemate predodžbu s čime i kako nešto postići, onda ne možete napraviti nikakvo pomagalo s kojim ćete to postići. I životinje se služe predmetima kao pomoćnim instrumentima, ali ih ne kreiraju. Možete vidjeti mlade majmune kako tankom grančicom izvlače ličinke iz drveta, slično rade i neke ptice. Čovjek je taj osnovni motiv razvio, poboljšao svoju sposobnost, ali nedovoljno u smislu vlastitoga oplemenjenja. Tu je nastao i procijep koji se civilizacijski ne može nadići; on se produbljuje zato jer je odnos cilj/ sredstvo izmakao odnosu spram unutarnjeg razvitka čovjeka. On je eksternaliziran. Utoliko i posljedice toga eksternoga gospodstva danas prijete svojom nadmoći cjelokupnom životu. Po prvi put biva jasno da kapital valja promišljati i prije kapitalizma. Utoliko i Marx možda postaje ne­dostatan za takav dubinski uvid. No Marx će trajno ostati kao jedna fiksacija koju treba slijediti prema višoj djelatnosti. Pri tome Marx nije pravio razliku što je umjetnost, a što je znanost. Ali, to je neko stanje duševno, koje omogućuje najveći unutarnji horizont i najveću životnu sreću.

oris

Ulmska škola (HfG) je istraživala mogućnost nadi la-že nja fragmetacije umjetnosti i znanosti u kontekstu dru š tveno progresivnog programa. Škola je imala sjaj ne intelektualne kapacitete i jasnu svijest o potrebi izna­laženja strategija kako produktivno integrirati dizajn u društvo, no to ipak nije pridonijelo opstanku škole.

meštrović

Kad jedna ustanova, koja je htjela nastaviti ono što je Bauhaus razvijao 1920.-ih godina i što je 1933.-e bilo prikraćeno, pokuša to napraviti 20 godina kas­nije, 1953. godine, da bi 1968. temeljem sličnih po stu paka, bilo obustavljeno, što se može danas za to re ći? Da se ljudska saznanja, najbolja saznanja ne uvažavaju. Znate li tko je gostovao kao predavač na Ulmskoj školi? Norbert Wiener, osnivač kiberne­tike. A ja ne bih htio glorificirati način kako je konstituira na ta ustanova. No, važni su principi, prije svega in ter nacionalizam. Max Bill je doveo Ar­gentinca To ma sa Maldonada i prepustio mu da vodi školu kad je shvatio da je ovaj po nekim saznanjima ispred njega. To su sretni ishodi, jer zlo i kad se po­vuče nije nestalo. Ja vas pitam, koliko su puta neke naše velike firme u samo deset godina promijenile svoj kućni stil ili svoj imidž. Znate li kada je dizajniran znak Lufthanse? To je rad Ulmske škole, nitko ne bi ni pomislio to mije nja-ti. I društveni ambijent je rezultat kvalitetnog rada, i kulturni i privredni i socijalni i idejni, sve ono što cjelinu predočuje. Imali smo u Zagrebu sedamdesetih godina, sveučilišni postdiplomski smjer za dizajn:

Protestni letak povodom zatvara-nja Ulmske škole / Leaflet protesting closing of the Ulm School.

Almir Mavignier, Deformierter Kreis, Hamburg, 1962.

Martin Heide­gger, Reyner Banham, 1959.

Pregled časopisa Ulm, u to vrijeme vodećeg teorij­skog glasila /Summary of Ulm Magazine, the leading theoreti­cal journal of that time.

Zadnja genera­cija Ulmske ško­le, 1968. Prvi s desna je Zlatan Međugorac, danas jedan od istaknutih nekonvencional­nih dizajnera u Ulmu. / The last generation of the Ulm School, 1968. First on the right is Zlatan Međugo­rac, today one of the prominent unconventional designers in Ulm.

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projektantski smjer koji su mogli upisati i arhitekti i inžinjeri, svi koji znaju što je projektiranje; organi-zacijski smjer koji su mogli upisati i ekonomisti, prav nici i sociolozi ; te teorijski, i za povjesničare umjetnosti i za pravnike. Znate li da je pravo koje je bilo posebni predmet na tome studiju vrlo značajni aspekt djelatnosti dizajna? Taj studij je likvidirala školska reforma, nakon svega jedne generacije studenata, a bilo ih je iz čitave zemlje, od Skoplja do Ljubljane. Poslije se rađao studij s idejama koje su bile često sektaške, a neću govoriti o tome pobliže. Prilike su se izmijenile, no mogućnosti a i potrebe su time osujećene.

oris

Vi ste 1993. godine prešli na Ekonomski institut i tamo dalje nastavili razvijati svoje interese i istraživanja. U kojoj mjeri su iskustva u umjetnosti i kulturi utjecala na vaš rad u tom okruženju, u smislu razvoja cjelovite predodžbe o suvremenom društvu?

meštrović

Kad sam napustio Centar za industrijsko oblikovanje i otišao na RTV Zagreb, neki su kolege to opravdali razlogom da se u praksi određeni ciljevi nisu mogli postići, ali će se moći komunikacijski pripremiti povoljnija klima za razvoj te djelatnosti. No, s ogor­čenjem moram reći, jako je žalosno da društvena misao u Hrvatskoj sama sebe zatajuje. Ponovilo se to više puta, a i danas se negativna selekcija nastavlja. Ja sam na Ekonomski institut došao jer me je “upropastio” dizajn. Izgubio sam mjesto di­rektora Zavoda za kulturu, jer sam se suprotstavio nametnutome rješenju za dizajn hrvatskih novčanica. U Institut sam došao 1993. godine, a projekt koji sam tamo započeo nosio je naziv “Kulturni kapital i razvojna strategija Hrvatske”. Taj projekt je okupio 5-6 mladih ljudi koje ja nisam poznavao osobno, nego sam ih pozvao temeljem njihovih publiciranih radova. I to je jedinstven slučaj da su se našli mladi ekonomisti i sociolozi na zajedničkom zadatku. To je bio vrlo uspješan projekt jer smo 1996. godine proveli jedinstvenu anketu u Hrvatskoj, na čitavom teritoriju i po svim generacijama, o pitanjima koja se odnose na socijalni i kulturni kapital, na dominatni sustav vrijednosti itd. U Ekonomskom institutu proveo sam dosad 14 godina, zadnjih nekoliko kao zaslužni znanstvenik – emeritus. U toj kući, jednoj od najznačajnijih takve vrste u ovom dijelu Europe, djelovao je nekad socio­log Josip Županov ili etnologinja Dunja Richtman, što potvrđuje da je interdisciplinarna orijentacija i prije postojala. Utoliko sam i ja našao motiva da se na tom pravcu angažiram, opet slijedom svoga vlastitoga iskustva, i s novim kategorijama kao što

generation of students, who came from the entire country, from Skopje to Ljubljana. Later, there were studies with ideas that were often sectarian, but I will not go into that. Circumstances have changed, but the possibilities and needs have been thwarted.

oris

In 1993, you moved to the Institute of Economics, where you have continued developing your interests and research. To what extent have the experiences of art and culture influenced your work in those surroundings, in the sense of developing an integral idea about contemporary society?

meštrović

When I left the Centre for Industrial Design and went to Zagreb Radio&TV in 1969, some colleagues jus­tified this by saying that certain goals could not be achieved in practice, but that communications could prepare a more suitable climate for developing that activity. However, I must say with indignation that it is very regrettable that social thought in Croatia has been self-effacing. It happened several times, and the negative selection is continuing even today. I came to the Institute of Economics because I was “ruined” by design. I lost the position of the director of the Institute for Culture of Croatia because I op­posed the forced solution for the design of Croatia’s paper money. I came to the Institute of Economics in 1993 and started a project called “Cultural Capital and Developmental Strategy of Croatia”. The project gathered 5 or 6 young people whom I did not know personally, but I invited them on the basis of their published works. It was a unique case where young economists and sociologists gathered around a common task. The project was very successful, since we made a unique Croatian survey in 1996, covering the entire territory and all generations, asking about the issues related to social and cultural capital, the dominant system of values etc. I have worked in the Institute of Economics for 14 years, the last couple of years as an emeritus. That house, one of the most important establishments of that kind in this part of Europe, used to include the sociologist Josip Županov and the ethnologist Dunja Richtman, showing an early interdisciplinary approach. I also had reasons to work in that direction, following my experience as always, using new categories such as cultural and social capital. They have been applied successfully in some cases and less successfully in others, but the dialog between two key areas of social sciences – sociology and economy – has been established at least in part.Let me add this: I always opposed the conventional meaning of the word “culture”, especially when it is

turned into a sector, one among many. The Croatian scientific and economical history and/or economic policy never asked about the negative value or damage of destroyed, disabled or marginalized intellectual capi­tal. What, then, can you do with design in this country?

su kulturni i socijalni kapital. Negdje su one primi­jenjene uspješno, negdje su ostale na pola puta, ali je svakako dijalog između dvije ključne oblasti društvenih znanosti, između sociologije i ekonomije, barem donekle bio uspostavljen.I ovim povodom moram reći. Uvijek sam se suprot­stavljao konvencionalnom značenju termina kultura, pogotovo kad se on svodi u sektor, među ostale. Hrvatska znanstvena ekonomska povijest i/ili gospo­darska politika nikad nisu postavile pitanje kolika je negativna vrijednost ili šteta uništenog ili onespo so-bljenog ili obesposlenog intelektualnog kapitala. Što ćete onda s dizajnom na našim prostorima?

fotografija / photo by Damil Kalogjera