145

Medical Registration Committee.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Tuesday, June 20th, 1848.MEMBERS PRESENT.

Sir H. Halford. Colonel Mure. Mr. Grogan.Sir R. H. Inglis. Mr. Wakley.

THE LORD ADVOCATE IN THE CHAIR.(Continued from page 90.)

John Kidd, Esq., M.D., Regins Professor of Medicine in theUniversity of Oxford, F.R.S., examined.

4104. Sir R. H. Inglis.]-We understand you have been in-structed by your medical colleagues, if not formally for the.University of Oxford, to represent their minds in reference to.the matters submitted to this committee ?--Yes.

4115. You wish the committee to understand it is partlythe desire of the university, and partly the custom of theyoung men, to acquire within the university the elements of aliberal and generous education, while for professional instruc-_tion they go elsewhere ?-Yes; I cannot answer for what the-wish of individuals may be, but that is the general practice.

4116. Having received in the university the general educa-tion, and out of the university the professional education, they.return to the university to ask for the degrees of bachelor ofmedicine and doctor of medicine respectively ?-Yes.

4122. Is nothing done in the comparison of the date atwhich the candidate appears, and the date At which lie pre-"viously received the degree- of bachelor of medicine ?-No; itis required that there shall have been three years from thetime of his having taken the degree of bachelor of medicine,and that he reads that dissertation.4126. Are you content with the certificate of the party’s

attendance at any of the hospitals recognised by the RoyalCollege of Physicians or the Royal College of Surgeons ?-That-decides it; if the-certificate is from an hospital recognisedby them, that satisfies the examiners of Oxford.

4131. Has it -ever occurred that, in the exercise of your duty,on have felt compelled to reject a candidate who had receiveda certificate from any other body ?-The statute has been inforce twelve years; upon an average there are three examina-tions in a year; four have been rejected, being considered in-competent after examination; two were rejected, their certi-ficate being not satisfactory.

4133. In point of fact, you wish the committee to under-stand it is a substantial, 6oH<de, searching examination ?-I.believe I may say so without any impropriety.

4143. The right of the university is at present exercised,though in a very few instances, to grant licences to practisemedicine through the whole realm of England ?-With the.exception of London and seven miles round.- 4144. Is it the wish of the university to retain that privilegewith or without modification ?-May I state that the constitu--tion of Oxford and Cambridge is so different, that I cannotgive a clear answer to that; although I have had conversationswith many of the heads of houses, I can only infer from those

. conversations what their individual wishes would be; I shouldsay two or three, not understanding the real state of the ques-tion, are very much in earnest in retaining the privilege of theuniversity; others see the advantages of waiving that, butwish for something like an equivalent. From what I havelearned during the last two days, it is my impression that theresident medical graduates of Oxford would accede to a pro-posal by which assessors should be admitted from Oxford atthe London examinations.

4172. CAM-MMM.]&mdash;As we understand the statutes of the- university require no other education except that which isfurnished inter parietes of the university, with this exception,"apud quoddam melioris notse Nosocomium, cum morbiscurandis interfuisse, tum lecturis audiendis" ?-Yes; and theRatcliffe Infirmary answers to that description; but we havenever had occasion to consider that, because those men- whomwe have examined have spent three years after their bachelorof arts degree, either in London or elsewhere.

4173. As the Ratcliffe Infirmary answers this requisition ofthe statute, the whole of the education necessary to qualify aperson to obtain the degree of bachelor of medicine might befurnished within the walls of the university ?-Yes; but mayI be permitted to add, that it would require amazing perse-verance in an individual who completed his education there;the terms being short, he must remain in the vacation to pur-ue his studies, but he might do it if he would.

4175. In general practice the education is not so obtained ? i- No.

4176. Is it obtained to any considerable degree within thewalls of the university ?-In the course of twelve years, duringwhich I have had experience, there have been but threeindividuals who have there acquired a very considerabledegree of information by their peculiar exertions.

4177. Was that n, general medical knowledge or only inparticular departments required ?-Generally; for it evenwent to the compounding of medicines, in two instances outof the three.

4178. But in anatomy,how did they acquire their knowledge &icirc;-The lectures I gave at Oxford were sixteen or twenty ineach course, and I gave two courses in the year, but the in-tention was to give that general information which a manliberally educated ought to possess; but if a man were study-ing medicine, it was-competent to him to pursue his studies inthe intermediate time, and I was ever ready to give my atten-tion in forwarding those studies.

4179. Generally speaking, I understand that the educationis furnished externally ?-Certainly.

4180. In what schools ?-In London most commonly, Parisoccasionally, and Edinburgh.

4204. What interval must elapse before a party, havingobtained a degree of bachelor of medicine, is entitled to takethat of doctor of medicine ?-Three years.

4205. And then he takes the degree of doctor of medicinewithout further examination ?-Yes; only reading a thesis,the subject of which has been proposed to the regius pro-fessor.

4212. Do you grant a licence to practise in Oxford separatefrom the degree?-Yes.

4213. When is that granted ?-Generally at the same timewith the degree of bachelor of medicine.

4214. Do you grant it to any one who does not take thebachelor of medicine ?-There is a power, I think, in theuniversity to give it, but I do not recollect an instance in thelast fifty years; and I think they may give a licence to a sur-geon.

4220. How many degrees of bachelor of medicine do yougrant annually ?-As near as we have-.been able to calculate,five in two years; three, then, is a large average, taken ineach year.

4227. Were you at the conference with the body in London?- Not till last night.

4229. Would there be any objection on the part of the uni-versity to have the curriculum required for medical exami-nation subjected in any degree to the General MedicalCouncil to be established by Act of Parliament ?-I shouldthink not; but I am very little capable of answering thatquestion. ____

Archibald Billing, Esq., M.D, F.R.S., examined.4231. Chairntan.] -What are you in the London University?

- A member of the senate, and one of the examiners.4232. Examiners for the purpose of giving degrees in medi-

cine ?-Yes.4288. Are your examinations strict ?-Yes.

’ 4289. Do you frequently reject, in respect of what youthink not sufficient knowledge ?-Yes; I can tell you the

. average of rejections, if the committee would wish to know.’ 4290. If you please ?--At the first examination of bachelor, of medicine, the average number of candidates has been forty,! of whom twenty-seven have passed, the average of rejection’ being thirteen; that is, three-tenths. The average of rejection’ on the second examination is one-ninth, and at the doctor of. medicine no rejection.

4291. Do you find rejected men return to you ?-Yes, they’ come a second time.

4295. How many bachelors of medicine do you pass annually?- The annual average number of degrees is seventeen bache-lors of medicine, and about seven doctors of medicine; twenty-. four altogether.’ 4296. Whom do you call undergraduates ?-The men be- tween their matriculation and taking the first of their degrees.

4297. How many undergraduates have you generally formedicine ?-The average annual number is ninety-five.

F 4321. Have you attended to this question of medical regis-tration ?-Yes.

’ 4322. Do you think it would be attended with advantage toregister in the way that has been proposed ?-I think a

- council would be advantageous to superintend the whole of; the registration.. 4323. Do you approve of the registration being in the three

leading classes of physicians, surgeons, and general practi.

146

tioners, understanding by physician and surgeon those whofollow the higher and exclusive practice of those depart-ments ?-I really do not attach much consequence to that; Ithink an alphabetical list would be sufficient, provided it puttheir qualification and line of practice.

4324. You do not think it of advantage to limit the practiceof certain parties to that of the pure physician (if I may socall it) and the pure surgeon, and others, to the mixed prac-tice understood to be followed by general practitioners ?-Iwould insist upon a man being qualified, having a certainminimum of knowledge before he entered into practice, andthen afterwards he might practise as a physician or as a sur-geon, as he could.

4338. Have you attended the conference that has been latelyheld in London upon the subject of this Bill ?-I have, once.

Friday, June 23rd, 1848.MEMBERS PRESENT.

Sir Thomas Birch. Mr. Grogan. Mr. Wakley.Colonel Mure. Mr. Hamilton.SIR HENRY HALFORD, BART., IN THE CHAIR.

Archibald Billing, Esq., M.D., F.R.S., further examined.4339. Mr. IFakley.] What communication have you had

with the joint committee of conference on behalf of the Uni-versity of London ?-I attended there a few evenings ago,about a week ago; I was deputed by the University of Londonto go there with Dr. Hodgkin; we had no communication from- them directly; they never communicated with us, excepting,I believe, at one time they sent a paper, which was called., Principles;" we were never invited to go to any of theirmeetings; it was in consequence of our hearing that the busi-ness was very much advanced, that the senate thought itnecessary to know what they were doing; they sent Dr.Hodgkin and myself there; they appointed us as the deputa-tion to inquire what they were about. About eight or ten daysago I applied to know when we could attend, and then theyfixed a day.

4340. Then the application was made in reality, in the first’instance, on behalf of the senate ?-Yes, made by the senate;that was on the 19th of June last; last Monday was the firstcommunication we had with them.

4341. When you saw the joint committee, was an explana-tion given to you as to the manner in which matters stood be-fore that body ?-Yes consistently with the draft of this Billmarked "private and confidential."

4342. Did you understand from the explanation that wasgiven to you, that matters were still remaining open for ad-justment, or that what had been adopted was considered to befinal, and admitted of no change !&mdash;We were not encouragedto expect any alteration at all upon any proposition I madeto them. I was told it was too late to go back now; that every-’thing had been arranged for the good of the profession bythose gentlemen.

4343. Chairman.]&mdash;That is, upon the score of convenience itwas considered to be too late ?-I suppose it is not too late,because their concerns must come before a committee of theHouse of Commons; it is for the committee of the House ofCommons to decide whether it is too late; but we could gainno answer beyond that.

4346. Mr. Wakley.]&mdash;Did you and your colleague make anyfurther propositions -Yes, we proposed to be put on thesame footing as Oxford and Cambridge.

4347. What did you understand that footing to be ?-For our graduates to have the power of practising (thatwould not interfere with the College of Physicians), the

power of practising, as the Oxford and Cambridge graduatesave.4348. Chairman.]&mdash;The power of granting licences to prac-

tise ?&mdash;Yes, the power of granting licences to practise out of- London.

4349. Mr. Wakley.]&mdash;Did you, in making that suggestion,contemplate the possibility of the peculiar privileges of Ox-ford and Cambridge not being continued ?-Not in the least; Ifelt certain they would be continued, because I felt certainthe heads of housesivould not give them up.

4443. Chairman.]&mdash;Am I to understand you that whateverprivileges Oxford and Cambridge have, the London Univer-sity would claim the same ?-Yes.

4452. Mr. Wakley.]&mdash;Are you aware, under the proposals that’have been made and sanctioned at the joint committee ofconference, how your bachelors of medicine would register,and whether previous to registration they would be required

to undergo an examination ?-They would be required to be-enrolled as amongst the third body, the general practitioners,and to submit, besides, to an examination by the College ofSurgeons.

4453. Would they not also have to undergo an examinationbefore the College of General Practitioners ?-No.

4454. Under what designation would your bachelors ofmedicine register ?-General practitioners, I suppose.

4455. Do you understand that they would be entitled to be-registered as surgeons as well as general practitioners ?-Asmembers of whatever body they are examined by.

4456. Would they be entitled to be so registered ?-I under-stand that it is proposed that they are to be registered as gene-ral practitioners, and that they are to be examined by theCollege of Surgeons.

4457. Then the proposed arrangement is as follows, that abachelor of medicine having undergone an examination be-fore you, before he can practise as a general practitioner hasto undergo another examination before the College of Sur-geons, and he is also to be enrolled as a member of the pro-jected College of Practitioners ?-Yes.

4458. Do you approve of that arrangement ?&mdash;No.4459. Will you explain on what points you dissent from it?&mdash;

I think that the graduates of the University of London oughtnot to be put into the body of general practitioners, becausethe general practitioners of London propose to arrange them-selves in a third body, and therefore to occupy an inferiorposition to those in general practice in Edinburgh and Dublin,who rank as surgeons.

4461. Do you consider that there being already in Londona College of Physicians, and a College of Surgeons, the new

institution would be deemed one of an inferior description?-The general practitioners ?-I 4462. Yes.-Decidedly it is third, and as third it must standbelow the other two.’ 4489. Have you paid much attention to the proposal forestablishing a third college, the one to be denominated theCollege of General Practitioners ?-Yes.’ 4490. Are you aware that the proposal does not provide forthe governing body, after examination, having the power tolicense those whom they examine ?--They have no power oflicensing; they are dependent upon the College of Surgeonsafterwards.

4491. Do you consider that they would exercise a powerwhich is now inferior to that which is exercised by the Courtof Examiners of the Society of Apothecaries ?&mdash;Certainly.

4492. Much inferior ?-Inferior as the body itself stands,taking it disconnected from the College of Surgeons.

4503. You consider that the gentlemen called the sur-

geons in this country are comparatively well-educated men,and are general practitioners ?-Generally so.

4505. Do you consider that there would be any difficultywhatever in constituting a board of examiners out of the Col-lege of Physicians and Surgeons, and probably nominees fromthe Society of Apothecaries, who should be thoroughly com-petent to test the qualifications of graduates for general prac-tice ?-It is already done; the government did that ten yearsago; in the University of London there are fellows of theColleges of Physicians and Surgeons, and members of theApothecaries’ Company, at this moment constituting theboard I have mentioned, who direct the examination of thebachelors of medicine.

4506. So that, in fact, the thing is done ?-The thing wasdone ten years since, and has been worked up ever since withthe greatest care, and now is an anomalous body to be started,and our graduates enrolled in it ?

4507. Have you in your examining body, physicians, sur-geons, and apothecaries ?-We have in our senate, physicians,surgeons, and apothecaries.

4508. Who are the apothecaries ?&mdash;Mr. Ridout and Mr.Bacot have held high offices in the Society of Apothecaries.

4509. What do those gentlemen examine in?&mdash;Mr. Bacotused to examine in surgery.

4510. Who examines in pharmacy ?-Dr. Pereira, one of themost competent men in England in that department of medi-cine.

4511. If a college of general practitioners were to be estab-lished, do you believe thatitcould form a more competent boardof examiners, and more capable of testing the qualifications ofthe candidates in all the departments of the profession thanthe examining body which you now possess in your univer-sity ?&mdash;No.

4512. Chairman.]&mdash;Practically speaking, have not the mosteminent surgeons been the fellows of the College of Surgeons- There have been no fellows until lately.