Native ft 11nesces;

; ' f ^ f e l S " S ' S ' V : • ■ :; 0 * M .

:■ ,.••// ■ - - ... . «•/- w. -;v. ■■'■.:% . • > ;: . v ^ J§

wae that the whole of the 9,000 paoplt In tbs looation had

to auffer because tha manager had differences with a few of

the people on the Board,

SSNATOB VAN NISK&TK: Do you subaoribe to what

lias been aaid here by Mr, Loubaer, that It ahould be In the

power of the Municipality or of tha Local Authority to

prevent the Influx cf latlvea Into the urban area of Kroonatad

?- Yea, certainly I agree with that,

,-:fv ■’ VVV, ‘ ^ '■ r*Do you all agree to that?- (The witfeeasee, after

.oonaultation): Tea, we all agree to It ,

In thla statement which you have put in, you aay

that a Native who cornea from the reserve or from the rural

areas, it better built phyeically and ia atronger than

the town Native, because he geta more vitamlna in hia

natural atata, while the Native who is here in the town

geta another sort of food. Now, do you think that kaffar

beer give a him those vitamlna, or 1* it the green atuff

which he eata on the veld?- (Mr, Blnda): Thoaa people

have more open air than we have and that haa a lot to do

with it .

You say that the Tatlves are coming to the town

becauae of the laok of educational facilities in the country?-

(Mr, Crutae): Tea, that ia one of the reaaona why they

come to the town.

You also aay that the Nativea are vary keen on

the education of their children?- They all are.

Then how ia it that we get a statement that there

are any amount of ohildren in the location who do not go to

achool regularly. How do you reoonoile the two atatemeata?-

There, again, we have a little difficulty. Tha jb rente

Native Witnesses! : 4 ,v;/ V: :,.':i? •'‘7----: wr * ; ; ?? : jfffeA ' -V • ’" '.\ . ' 1-'' -?-;'V‘' . : -S‘ r. ^ y C ’ ••-•.^Vj'T'-, .'.Zi* r. .- ■’■*. " ’ j ,'^t v-i'; *; ; ;?!*.v * ;-s' \ ^Sir* '-’ • '* -* ':*"v "' ' ^ i ' : V ' /• ' ■" ' ’ - I?- ^ ‘?;' * -'.V .•* ■*

-:V-’-' • ■': • -J* -\-S-h'- . I*: •-&. V : '•;-J;-' t-.',' v • -/.■£• - /> :r,! 7 .-V

have to patf school fees. She parent* have to wa- k la order

to keep their families going. You find, in many oases,keep

that the ci.ild has to ggufc housed as well whilethe parents

are at work and there are very many other reasons why the

children are kept away from aohool.

W . JQSKFH KOKQZ&LIA, flailed and examined:

'2CHAIBUABj You have put in a statement, a good deal

of which deals with watters Jw which the tree State Kducation

Department ia more competent to deal with than this Commission,

hut we would lik* to ask you soma genera l ques Si o n ® P i r « % ?

of all, in your Native schools, -,shat is your medium of

instruction?- it is not uni arm in character in the

Union to start with.

1 am talking of your conditions locally?- Well,

take the school In whioh i work. i & *** 70*> Basuto speaking

pupils and 30$ made up of Xoaa, Zulus and Afrikaans speaking

people. Well, norc it is laid down that aa my medium of

instruction I uanuot use any language hut Sasutu, because

of tho majority in' tne school being Sasutos. That ia a

requiremant of the *d nation department, You at once

see the unfairness there. Hj contention is, that even

if I have a class of SO children and one is different from

the others, "are should not be confined to one medium even

if it means that only one is •zaluded*'

SEKAfOF VAN JflgKft'K: No,*, say you had ten children

each speaking a different language?- Well, of course, tha%.

.tould make it even more difficult,

CEA2R! What do you propose?- My suggestion

would he that we should rather adopt a medium which the

- 4760 -

parent* feci that they would rather hwve for their children.

All along, English was the medium and then Afrikaana vat

brought la a a a aeooad language, the eeoond offlolal language

In the Native school*. Then, as time vent on, the Yetlva

medium vaa brought In. Ho*, the Mative parent* contend

"Rather than make my l o u ohlld a Baeutu, teaoh him In the

English medium beeauae that v lll be better for him In future".

You would rather have him an ffagliahman than a

Baauto?- *ea , that la the point* It le a diffieulty

in regard to vhloh we have been agitating and 1 am pleaaed

to aay that the autherltlea are beginning to look at the

vlewe of the parente. ihey have et leaat given aoma

oonoeasion and, in future, where possible, ve stall have

to teaoh all language*, that Is to aay, you vlll have a

day *et apart vhere, ae far aa poaalble, you vlll group

your sohool into language groupe. I have 70% Baautoa.

I just split up the Baeuto* into groupe and make them

vleldy for work and then I taka the other*, too, in the

•ame vay•

DH. RCBEFTSs How many teaoher* have you got

under you?* 1 have 22 under me, I am the 23rd.

That la In the amalgamated school?- Yea,

CHAIR MAH: Have you not got enough Zulua to have

a aeparate Zulu olaas?- Yae, we hava. Ve have about 700

Basuto apsaking people. Under thoae I inolude the Barolong.

You have varioua groups of Baeutoe*- Yas. And

then we have about 30 Xoea, 25 Zulu and about 35 Afrlkaana

apeaking pupile. Howadaya we work in groupa, but in the

past, things were different. I am pleaaed to aay, though

that the authorltiea are beginning to realiee the need of

euoh aotlon.

< The trouble wae that you had to teaoh all thinga In

• 4761 •

kioi Sasutu, you had to ua« the one Mative Mother tongue,

although they were not all baeutu speaking and, naturally,

that oould not give the heat re suite but, under the

grouping eye tew, I fed. that we shall do very much better.

Do you not consider that, apart fro* the difficulty

which you have la nixed olaeeee, generally speaking It is

educationally sounder to use your om language then a

language which le quite foreign to you?- Yes, undoubtedly

that la quite true. 1 do believe that anybody ahould be

able to underetand that poaltlon, nobody ehould be foolish

enough to deepiae his language# and we do believe that In

our eystea of training we ehould use the languagee that

are beat known to us, that are our own, with which we are

faailier, but, unfortunately, the Mduoatlon Department

aaya, "You muet use the one particular medium", and that

la wncre the difficulty comee in . Ve eay, otherwise,

that it la good for the child that it should be taught aa

much aa possible In Its own tongue. You should have

your school oeneue in view and meet the requirements of

your school accordingly.

Iff. ROBKBTS: Would you go the length, ae waa

done In Pretoria, that when there le a difficulty of that

kind, of teaching them altogether in Afrikaana, or, if you

prefer, In the Cepe Colony, In Snglieh?- Do you mean

that that ehould be taken aa an additional eubjeot or ee

ax medium? '

lo , not ae an additional eubjeot, ae a medium?*

Mo, personally I do not know that 1 could agree to that.

I do not bean that you eay you muet do It la

Afrikaana and Sngllah and let other thlnge go?- Generally,

that eeeae to be one way out.

4768 •

CHAIRMAN: Do you think, from tbs Matlve point of

view, that It is a aatlafaotory way out!*, that, now that

tha Native* ara gradually moving toward* education they

should be weaned away from their oma languages by it?»

Hot neoesearlly. She point is this. You go to a aohool

where you hare a diversity of languages and there the

Iduoation Department eaya, "Tour medium of instruction must

be one partieular tongue"•

They get over the difficulty by saying that the

minority hae to follow the language of the majority?* Sxeotly.

leaving the minority problem aaide , whioh glvee

difficulty all over the world, take a olaas where you

have pore Seeuto speaking. What medium would you prefer

there?- There I would naturally prefer the Mother tongue

of the ohild.

What la the feeling of the parents in your area;

do they want eduoatioa through the Mother tongue or through

the Suropean language?- The feeling of the parents is that

they went fifty fifty , or they want aa much of the one aa

of the other. Their feeling really is that they do not

want anything to be negleoted. For lnetanoe, if you

were to teaoh them all along in Saautu you would find

diff loultlea there, especially when a ohild goes to the top

and psrtloularly ao if the parents are lm a position to glvs

him higher eduoation. In actual jr aotlae, the Hatives

do not really deepise their own tongues, but the difficulty

la created because of the dlverelty in the schools.

IBR. MOSTRWT: Do you not think that, In primary

education, the Mother tongue la really the beat?- Up to

certain etagea only. Say from the beginner*a atage until

they stert Standard I .

Only below standard I ?- You oertalnly oan make

a ohlld understand more in ite own tongua than In another

tongue, but you have gradually to lntroduoe the offlolal

languages ao that, whan the ohlld leaves eohool, he oan

■aka himself properly underetood.

DR. ROBERTS* You oan only do It In the early

stagea. You oould not do tbs whole of your work In St .I I

in another languagef- So.

CHAIRMAN* Your views, therefore, thet you nust

make sure that your puplla oan read and write at leaat one

of the offlolal languagee In addltlonto their own languageT-

Yes, exaotly, that la what I feel. That la an Important

point, of aourae*

Yea, the queatlon la Important beoauee it oomea to

thla - what la the object of the kativee?- I think I men*

tloned thet la my paper. If eduoatlon la to be worth

anything at all, It must be of a type which will not only

make the *atlve assimilate the ®estern ideas, but he must

at the same time give something to his own folk and help

them to develop the good thiage of their own segregation.

* • that they, too, may make the beat uae possible of that

elvlllettlon, In other words get the beat of what they oan

and make It their own.

M . LUCAS: Do you agree with the previous witness

about the reaaoa why so many ohlldren la a looatlon are not

attending the eohoole today?- To a large extent, I do, but

I thiok that, looally, the reason may be the present eoononlo

depression and the low standard of wages.

You oonslder the eoonomio depression is the oause ?-

I think it haa a lot to do with it beoauee, after a ll , •

Native will see to It that hie ohlldren are eduoated If he oan

• 4764 -

l

; 5 ■ , 1 Learning today with the *atlvee la like wildfire, they all

have a great thirst for It . And I believe, In regard to

the children who art not in sohool at preeent that tha great

reason would ha that tha parents ara not in a position to

equip then.

Will you epeoify this a little more?- Well, thia

1* what I feel. Under the praaent system, in the primary

stage, tha parent a have to pay feee ell along the line. Then

they have to buy bo oka, whioh they have to p*y for at full

cost price. If a book la w<rth 2/dd , they have to pay

that 2/6d - they have to pay the fall price for the book

and, on top of that, they have to olothe and to feed their

ohildren* We know that provia Ion la made by tha State

far education in other caaea. The Coloured and the European

children we know get free education and, in addition to

that, they get their books at 50% of the oost price, whereaa

in some caaea, too, the booka are aupplied free of oherge.

We have none of that. The Natives have to pay for

their children unlees you hsve a Native school under a■

sohool board under the direct control of the Stste. Z

know only of one lnstsnce in the Gape Colony where they

are free, otherwise, In all latlve schools, ws have to pay,

and that, I think, la the reaaon for these children not

being in school^ beoauae the parents have to meet their

dues, they have to keep their children tidy, they have to

pey for olothea and they find great difficulty in paying

for all these things. The obtaining of booka in Bative

primary aohoola la a tremendous difficulty.

1R. LUCAS : Do you find that there ere many

Bativee *ho go to night schools?- Yea, very many and

increasing In number. I hardly know of any

•' . . J-‘ ’ ^ 4/- ;:

big town in ths whole of the Union where you do not hare

these night eohoola. Ae a wetter of feot, we are held up

here because, so far, we have not had a suitable plaoe for

suoh an inetitution, but I may say I am hopeful now of our

lifting able to open a night aohool soon. But there again

we shall have a difficulty in regard to lack of support.

It will be a financial diffioulty again. It means that,

in order to oarry on that work, those who will attend iti

will have to struggle and struggle to keep it going. On

top of that, we shall be faoed with e number of other

diffloultiee, but we shall have a big attendance beoause

there is e big demand for a sohool of that kind. Ve have

already got 35 adults who are on the waiting list for the

night eohoole and X think that number w ill be inoreaaed.

Do you know of many Natives in Kroonstad who

actually go in for teaohing thiir friends?- Tee, that \

is a common thing. There is a very great deal of that j

going on. At a matter of faot, all fch of us are using

our leisure hours In which -ve teaoh one friend or another.

As I have eaid, the Natives are very keen on education.

BK . JtCBSFTSt Tou know taat they ere doing it

n the *inee?* Xes.

3 NATOF VAH SIKKERK: You teaoh three languagee,

Afrikaans, English and one Satlve language?- Tee.

i*ow, do you keep that up right up to St. VI ? • T#e,

and they have to pass examinatione in all those three languagei

Do you find it very difficult to get them efficient

in those three languagee?- Tea, 1 do.

But they do get a certain amount of efficiency?*

lea , they do, but I can tell you that it is very hard work#

You are setting a very fine example to the rest of

South Africa?- Thank you very muoh, sir .

DF. FOBEFTS: I understand from what you aay that; ' . ‘ f ' '• ■'.% ■; i ' ' " :/ X ft

you are strongly in favour of free eduoation?- At least.

In the primary schools, aa against the faolllties provided

today for sohoole which go fraa Sub A to V I . I think, if

that were eo, we would have a very helpful atate of affaire.

Ae you know, todey we have to struggle for everything for

ourselves. le had a school here, the amalgamated school,

in which we have over a thousand children with twentythree

teachers. Ve have Just to do something to keep things

going, but it is hard work. $e have to collect the feae,.

which amount to & matter of about £100 per year. Well,

you will understand that we hsve to augment that amount

in order to keep the school going and we are always at it .

The only thing we get from the State le a grant for the

e^lariee of our teaohere, but if we want anything else,

we have to stuggle { we have to organize our own ooneerts,

hold little bazaars, or arrange any other kind of affair

so that we way be able to have the necessary funds available.

It is a hard fight. You can see what a boon it would

be to us i f , in Sjuth Africa, things could be uniform

and if we Q o u l d have free eduoation up to St. V I.

You do not want to go higher than St. VI ?- Oh,

yes, 1 would like to go higher if it were possible.

MR. M09FSRT: You said tnat you got about £100

per year?- Yes, t h a t is what we colleot in fees.

Is that what you colleot from 1,000 children?- Yes,

the fees are* fixed. In the first year, they pay between

"A* and "B " . That is a course of six months. They pay

threnpenwe per month and, in the second year, in St. I I ,

they go up to 6d per month, and so the fess increase, they

-•Ji, r 1v. \ -7 '1 ■■ r-J _? '?r - '/ " " ■ .. ■ ”

- . :•; ■ ' -’V ' J k v i v' -■ 1 ■ - ■ ‘ . < V ' , s. ■ . ■

■

- 4767 -* tor *

Mr. Kokozella

W *f . -ZU' ..rf S i t ^

go up to one snilling per month in Stands d V and then it

i . .. % V .V .. '! I - ' ■ ■. „>becomes very hard, really, for these Natives, especially

for parents who have three or four children all going to

school St the aawe time. Of aouraa, a little exemption

is made, but it does *m a-aouut to much.

Still, £100 par year froa 1,003 children ia vary.

little?- ¥ea, and &-e are handicapped in the matter cf

equipping the son ool»s. if or instance, we s aald like to give

tne boys sane home craft training (handicraft), but we sre

handicapped for !■ ok of funds and ^e cannot io it .

Even at threepence per month It would be 3/- per

year aad you would get about £200 in fees?- Of course,

tlj* holiday? do not scant.■

HR. LUC»-- Tiiere ie one aspect whicr I would like

to put to you. - 5 nat is the m*in motive making the Native

» - •-&. - . • -Sf . '-5- - -S' - . •••• - *; ' v-*7h o eager for education?- Ttie Siative is begiuning to find

himself and ’e feel that;, In our present, environment se-

Sr '-4V- - - O" watt to advance. five Native finds himself under conditions

?sherft he sees thet he hos to improve - he rants to learn■■ - - ■ i

.

to think for himself, ar.d he knot's tfaat ne is practically

lost without l^arnin . Unless he l^snns, ne has no outl-ok

■

to earn nia livelihood end he realises that, if he oan

increase nis earning capacity he cen get on better.

You tnink his main object is to improve his earning

capaojtj', to get on in the «orld?- Yee. that is what I feel.ir

He realises, from what he sees a-*uoug the Buropeans, that

education is essential, ttwt it is only by means of knowing

acaaithing that he can ever hope to go ahead.

Does that feeling prevail among the town Natives.

as well 8 8 among the ivs*-ives in the reserves?- I should aey‘

so, Ju-iging from rr.y ex;x»rienoe.

MR*. bv :-;LI3E KHISA, oalled and examined.

CHAIRMAN: I understand you have a statement

to aakeT- Tea. My statement deals with oertaio points

which I wtti to put before the Commission*

Both in the Urban areaa and rural areas,

domestic servants are generally Satlvee, Usually the

femele sex is favoured, but lately the malt/sex is favoured,

particularly the Portuguese native who aooepts very low wagee

The wages of this urban area, so far as Matlvee

are oonoerned, are not compatible with the cost of living.

During the investigations of the Wages Board is August 1929,

the employers of labour expressed their willingness to

inoreaae Hative wages; but, unfortunately, the Government.

refused to grant a minimum wage, the result being that at

preeent Kroons tad Native employees ars suffering as a

result of economic pressure.

In the Free State urban locations, municipal

rates and taxes are collected in respect of hut, water and

sanitary fees; but none of the tovns in this province psy

a higher rate than Kroonstad, (9 /- ). The hardship brought

to bear upon the resident* of this location can easily be

seen by the unsound economic conditions obtaining in this

urban srea. On the other hand, there la not a aufflolent

reason evident as to why Kroonstad, a town far smaller

than Bloemfontein, s ould pay suoh high rates; Whereas,

on the other hand, Bloemfontein is based on a better footing,

seeing that it has been awarded a minimum wage.

We, therefore, appeal very strongly to the

Government to relieve us of this burden, either by granting

ua a minimum wage compatible with the cost of living, or by

4769 -

bringing preasure to baar upon the Local Urban Authority

to reduoe the location rates.

O* ng to unfavourable economic conditions in tha

rural area^ and owing to eviction* in certain instances

from these areas, many latlvea drift Into the urban araaa,

with the hope of making the situation easier for thaa.

Truly speaking, the Hative Land Act of 1913 is the root

3auaa of this unfavourable economic condition in tha

rural araaa, since it has deprived many Hativea of the

right to have the share eystsm and the right to purchase

land in the Free State, and as Is wall known, several

Natives were evicted from their farma unless they were

willing to become b bour tenanta under vary unfavourable■

oonditlona. Those who still remain on farms are employed

4a the promise that they are given four acres of land to

plough, and in many oases, before they have the time to

reap their crope, the lativea are driven off the farma by

soaM European farmers and these poor unfortunate people,

finding that conditions are tha same everywhere in the

rural araaa, have to come to towne to find shelter.

Other cauaea of this influx are due to the

Hative a from the Hative reserves and territoriee (especially

women from Basutoland) who, in most oasaa, are rsfugeea

from the cruel treatment they reoelve from the oonaervativa

ohief, and whan they get to our towna, they find that they

cannot get work. Untimately, they resort to other meane

for a livelihood, (hence the brewing of kaffer beer).

Others, it must be admitted, are drawn to towns on aocount

of the favourable beer market - theee,however, are a very

negligible number. Aa a matter of fact, the unsound

economic ayatem of thia country breeda thia evil. The

result la that our towna are flooded with outside people,

who, finding it impossible to aupport their famlllee in

their own homes, come to the tow a and help to reduce

the wagee of the urban areaa . The reault la that old

standholders are ouate j from their work and enployers engage

cheap labour. The position is (aa truly aettere atand

today), many parent a are no more abl« to aupport their

ohildren and many of theae children become thieves, aeeing

that their parents have no aeeae to feed thea, (especially

is thia the caec with ohildren of widowed aothere). X%

la for thia reason that aeveral atandholdera have to

reeort to beer brewing.

The only remedy to ease mattera in urban looatlone

la for the Government to releaae certain areaa for the

occupation of natives (preferably areaa bought by the

Oovercment, and given to letlves aa freehold plots). If

any individual Natlvea who can afford to purchaae land,

they should *11 be a*de to do ao in theae Crown landa.

We have no doubt that this is the pos ible method of

mating things better than the preeent eyatem. It must

here be noted, however, thet it would be unwlae to aend

the Free Ltate Natlvea to the Tranevaal end the Transvaal

Nativea to the Cajp , etc. Whet really i» the deeire of

the Native people la that Crown landa ahould be releaaed

in ell provincea and thoae of the other province* who

prefer to migrate to other prcvincee to buy land there,

a*y do a» at their own w ldu

CHAIRMANj Are you occupied in the location aa

n nurse, or ere you one of the outalde nurses?- I am Just

• citizen in the location, I am not a nurse at a ll ,

SENATOR VAN NISKK K: You aay that, very often.

- 4771

Mr. IChiea

latlvee on the farme, after they have a m their oropa, ara

driven away befoxw they have reaped their eropa. Surely

there ia a law that no farmer can drive a Bative from hia

land before he has reaped hia oropa?- Yea, I admit that

there ia a law of that kind, but, in apite of that law,

here looslly and all about Kroonstad, we know that Mativaa

are ejeoted in that manner*

But If that is ao, why do thsy not appeal to tha

Magistrate. They have the law on their sideT- Many a

time, when a Native oomes before a magistrate here and he

happens to ba against a White man, the judgment la always

in favour of tha White man.

Do you mean to signify by that that tha Mative do a

not get Juatloe in a oourt of law here?- Yea, that le what

happens and that la what Is signifies. W# know that that Is i

MR. LUCAS: What asaoolatlon do you belong to?-

Z belong to tha Kroonstad Location Women's Association, and

I speak on their behalf*

What dose that Association exist for?- Our Associa­

tion exists for the purpose of spesklng on behalf ©f the

location citizens who happen to be llltreated or who are

not paid proper wagaa.

Ia It an association for woman ea well aa for man,

or It it only for women?- It le an association for man and

woman together.

What sort of caaea do you take up and with whom do

you take them up?- We reoelv© these complaints, we deal

with them and convey them by letter to the Location Superint­

endent and, from him, they ara paesed on to the Town Council.

Wa deal principally with matters concerning economic questions.

I refer now to the question of the due a which we have to pay

4772 •

"<lv':' -""-w’?''. : '2 ^ ' ^ ’-•• *•• -. ' '*. '".'''• IP •_

to the Municipality here and alao to tbs Batter of wage a

which arc earned by our people who live In th« looation

and alao by our people lo the taa»* Thoae are matter*

which it ia neceaaary for aa to take up with the Vunioipal

Council.

How lung haa your aaaociatioo been in exiatenoe here?-

«e have been in exiatenoe for two year a now.

And how many member a have you got?- We have over

200 membere today.

Are theee 200 women?- Yea, we have 200 women aembere

You eay you are an ae relation of men and women

together?* *ea, men andwomen, at the preaent moment we have

200 women membera.

How many male men bare have you got?- I do not know.

I am epeaking on behalf of the voata membere of the association.

SEHATOfl YAH NIEKEHK: And what you have told ue

here ia the view of your membere?- Yea, I have been aeked

to come and apeak here.

And it la the view of your membere that, when a

Kative gate to court, he often doea not get juatioe?- When

a Sative goes to court against a White man, he finde it very

difficulty, becauae he ie not always believed.

eay he doea not get Juetice?- It ie very

difficult,le it the view of yovr membere and of your assoc­

iation that a Native, when he goee to o >urt here, doee not

get Justice?- We aay it is very difficult for the Sativ#.

Do you eey that he does not get Juetice?- (lo reply).

(The wltneee* evidenoe was interpreted by Mr.

P. A. Sello .)

Collection Number: AD1438

NATIVE ECONOMIC COMMISSION 1930-1932, Evidence and Memoranda

PUBLISHER: Collection funder:- Atlantic Philanthropies Foundation

Publisher:- Historical Papers Research Archive

Location:- Johannesburg

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