New Deposition of Kurt Donsbch, September 9, 1989 · 2020. 6. 22. · 1 I N D E X 2 /"II>, 3...

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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

WESTERN DISTRICT OF MISSOURI

WESTERN DIVISION

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JOHN RENNER, M.D.,

Plaintiff,

vs.

KURT DONSBACH, PETER JOSEPH LISA, MAUREEN SALAMAN, CLINTON MILLER, INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE OF NATURAL HEALTH SCIENCES, INC., and, NATIONAL HEALTH FEDERATION,

Defendants.

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No. 88-0838-CV-W-9

Deposition of

KURT W. DONSBACH

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For the Plaintiff:

For the Defendant:

A P P E A R A N C E S

MICHAEL K. BOTTS Attorney At Law 421 West 87th Street, suite 1 P.O. Box 3308 Kansas City, Missouri 64114

EDWARDS, TYREE, MARTIN & MORRIS BY: ROBERT M. MORRIS

901 Main Street Blue Springs, Missouri 64015

ALEXANDER & SAUNAR (619) 235-0214

1 The deposition of Kurt W. Donsbach, defendant erein,

2 taken by plaintiff pursuant to the applicable sections of the

3 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, on Saturday, September 9,

4 1989, before Marc Volz, CSR No. 2863, beginning at the hour of

5 9:05 a.m., at 610 West Ash Street, Suite 1006, in the City of

6 San Diego, County of San Diego, State of California.

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1 I N D E X

2 /"II>,

3 WITNESS EXAMINED BY PAGE

4 Kurt w. Donsbach Mr. Botts 1

5 E X H I B I T s

6 PLAINTIFF'S DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED

7 12 Answers to Questions

.~ 8 Civil No.88-0838-CV-W-9 Kurt w. Donsbach 3

9 13 Copy of letter

10 of resignation 14

11 14 Letter dated June 19, 1989 14

12 15 Letter dated

13 June 15, 1989 15

14 16 Letter dated July 7, 1989 15

15 17 Letter dated

16 July 8, 1989 15

17 18 Letter to Maureen Salaman 26

18 19 Letter dated

19 August 17, 1989 26

20 20 Letter dated November 6, 1985 42

21 21 Letter to

22 Maureen Salaman 42

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SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA, SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 1989, 9:05 A.M.

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3 KURT W. DONSBACH,

4 defendant herein, being first duly sworn, testifies as follows:

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6 EXAMINATION BY MR. BOTTS:

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Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Would you please state your name for the record.

Kurt W. Donsbach.

Do you still reside in Rosarita Beach, Mexico?

I do.

Your counsel and I have just discussed, and we're

12 in agreement, that this deposition, all-in-one deposition we can

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inquire into the various capacities that we did in separate

depositions last time.

MR. MORRIS: That's correct and let's make sure that

16 we --

17 THE WITNESS: I understand.

18 MR. MORRIS: That we note those jumps of track from one

19 to the other so the record is clear.

20 BY MR. BOTTS:

21 Q. Are you aware of the court's order regarding

22 discovery in this deposition?

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A.

Q.

25 documents?

I am.

Did you comply with that order for production of


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A.

Q.

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To the best of my ability, I did.

I received a document entitled "Answers to

3 Questions Kurt w. Donsbach" and a separate document for -- let's

4 start with the Donsbach one. Is this the document that you sent

5 in response?

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A. Yes. Do you have a copy?

MR. MORRIS: I don't. But I've seen it.

8 BY MR. BOTTS:

9 Q. With regards to request No. 1, your response states

10 that all your tax records are in storage with your CPA in

11 Huntington Beach and that he's been contacted and requested to

12 immediately forward those tax returns to the court. Was that

13 done?

14 A. since I have not been in the area for some time, I

15 have requested my niece to call them. She said that she had

16 received a bill from them for the services, so I assume it has.

17 I cannot say with certainty that it has, sir.

18 Q. I received this a couple weeks ago and tried to

19 correct the situation. They shouldn't be sent to the court,

20 they should be sent to your counsel who will give them to me.

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A. I think that was the address I gave to them.

MR. MORRIS: In Kansas City. I don't know. Have you

23 talked to George about it?

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MR. BOTTS: I talked to George before I left --

THE WITNESS: No, I gave them George's address not the


1 court's address, Mr. Botts.

2 BY MR. BOTTS:

Q.

A.

What is the name of the CPA in Huntington Beach?

Tom McGenty. I know that when I called he was on

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vacation, I talked to his assistant who said they would go into

the archives and try to find them.

Q. For the record, the only taxes I received, and I

received these very recently, are taxes for Donsbach University

for the year 1985 and International Institute of Natural Health

10 sciences for the years 1983, 1985 which is incomplete, 1984 and

11 1986, so I have no personal taxes from you whatsoever.

12 A. Mr. Botts, I will attempt to correct that Monday

13 morning, even if it means going to Huntington Beach myself and

14 trying to do so. I had less than a week to meet this deadline

15 from the time I was given the instructions.

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Q. The court was aware of that also.

Let's go ahead and mark this into evidence rather

18 than me reading everything. We'll mark this as Exhibit -- since

19 I'll use many from yesterday let's mark that as Exhibit 12. Is

20 that agreeable?

21 MR. MORRIS: That's fine.

22 BY MR. BOTTS:

23 Q. I will let you take a few minutes to review Exhibit

24 12 and specifically direct your attention to items 2 and 3.

25 Have you had an opportunity to review that?


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Q.

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Yes, I have, sir.

Is it still your contention that you have never

3 written or sent any documents or received any documentation from

4 any other defendant or any other person naming or discussing

5 Dr. Renner?

6 A. To the best of my knowledge, sir, no. You're

7 asking for written correspondence, right?

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Q.

A.

Well, is that a distinction that you're making?

I am sure there was probably discussions, verbal

10 discussions at meetings of the board. There was no -- I'm just

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not a letter writer, sir.

Q.

13 Renner?

14 A.

15 defendants.

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Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

You ever receive letters saying anything about Dr.

Not to my knowledge, sir. Not from any of the

or anyone else?

Not that I'm aware of.

Dr. Herbert?

No, sir.

You mean when Clinton Miller appeared before the

21 congressional subcommittee in 1984 and immediately after

22 Dr. Herbert that he didn't send you anything regarding that?

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A.

keep a file.

Q.

If he did, sir, I have no knowledge of it. I don't

Do you keep any files?


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Very few.

What files do you keep?

More on product formulation.

Any other files?

Scientific articles that are of interest to me.

Any other files?

A. The question is -- as you say, I am not a file

keeper. I keep things that I feel may be of interest to me in

9 the future from a research aspect more than anything else and

10 that's about all I keep.

11 Q. You keep your correspondence from Clinton Miller

12 and Maureen Salaman?

No.

Peter Lisa?

No.

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Q.

A.

Q. Who published the book, The Great Medical Monopoly

·17 Wars?

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Q.

A.

Q.

International Institute of Natural Health Sciences.

Did they actually run the presses?

No, sir.

Who did the actual printing of the book and the

22 binding of the book?

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A. I believe, sir, a company known as Delta Litho or

Delta Press in the Los Angeles area.

Q. Do you recall how much it cost to print the book?


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Do you want me to be specific? 1

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Q. Round figures. You've printed a lot of books, have

3 you not?

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Q.

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Yeah. Approximately a dollar.

Could it be as much as two dollars?

I don't believe so. You are talking about the

7 actual printing, you're not talking about typesetting and --

8 Q. Well, the total cost of the book per copy, did it

9 run as high as $2.50?

10 A. Typesetting and plate burning is always a one-time

11 expense on any book, that makes the first run more expensive.

12 The actual printing probably ran under a dollar. I have no

13 recollection of the cost of the typesetting, but and plate

14 making, but you're probably talking about another $2,000 or so

15 and if that's true, the cost of the first run of the book may

16 have been considerably over a dollar.

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Q.

A.

Q.

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How many runs were there?

I believe only one run, sir.

Do you recall how large that was?

I think it was 5,000 copies.

Could it have been 7500?

Could have been.

Could it have been 10,000?

I don't believe so.

After the book was printed, was it delivered


back

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Q.

It was delivered to the International Institute.

And then what happened to that print run, was it

4 sold to the National Health Federation?

5 A.

6 Federation.

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Q.

A.

Much of it was sold to the National Health

Who else was it sold to?

DRK bought probably a majority of the run of the

9 books because they were at that time selling that book and I

10 think one of the other and so probably ORK sold most of the

11 books that were printed. I still have several thousand in my

12 possession.

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14 DRK?

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Q.

A.

Q.

At that time did you have a financial interest in

No, sir.

Did International Institute have a financial or

17 business interest or relationship with DRK?

A business relationship, no interest.

What business relationship was that?

They sold products to ORK.

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Q.

A.

Q. I believe your testimony before was that there was

22 no written contract between you or yourself and Peter Joseph

23 Lisa; is that correct?

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Q.

That's correct.

What were the terms of the oral contract, what was


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1 your agreement with him?

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A. I believe he was paid a retainer which was to be

applied against any royalties that might accrue from the book,

sale of the book.

5 Q. Was it an advance on royalties?

6 A. I believe that may have been the concept of it

7 because the book never sold enough copies to create that. It

8 was in effect a moot point.

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Q.

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What was the royalty percentage?

I believe ten percent.

Ten percent of the --

Invoice.

And what was the advance on royalties? What was

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17 $2500?

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Q.

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Q.

22 Institute?

I believe $2500.

So is that all of the money that he received was

I believe so. I cannot be sure of that, sir.

What do you mean you can't be sure of that?

Because I don't remember, sir.

Where are the business records for International

They no longer exist, to the best of my knowledge.

Where have you looked for those records?

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Q.

A. I have looked in a storage shed that I put a lot of


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things when I moved to Mexico and was unable to find any. 1

2 Q. Would any of those records be with your attorney or

3 CPA?

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Other than evidently the tax returns.

Why was the book, The Great Medical Monopoly Wars

6 copyrighted in the name of International Institute?

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9 author?

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Q.

A.

Q.

Because they were the publisher.

Isn't it common to copyright under the name of the

I don't know.

The books that you wrote that were published by

12 International Institute, were they copyrighted by you or by

13 International Institute?

14 A.

15 Institute.

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19 1987?

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22 1986?

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25 1985?

Q.

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Q.

The best of my knowledge, with the International

Did you file a tax return for the year 1988?

No, sir.

Did you file a personal tax return for the year

No, sir.

Did you file a personal tax.return for the year

No, sir.

Did you file a personal tax return for the year


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Q.

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I believe so, sir.

What about the year 1984?

Yes, sir, I think so.

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4 Q. Part of the court's order was for you to identify

5 lawsuits that have been filed against you. Your response simply

6 states, "Prior to my bankruptcy several minor suits were filed

7 against me. All of these were resolved in bankruptcy and I did

8 not keep records of them." And you do not list any lawsuits.

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Q.

Uh-huh.

Where did you look to try to discover the name of

11 the court, the name of the case and the case number for each of

12 the lawsuits brought against you?

13 A. Well, as I said, I don't keep files and all of

14 those are resolved, so where would I look? When they were

15 resolved, I'm sure the papers were thrown away.

16 Q. Did you have an attorney in your bankruptcy?

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21 bankruptcy

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Q.

Yes.

Does your attorney have files?

Well, he would have the bankruptcy files, sure.

You said that these were resolved in the

Well, prior.

Did you contact your attorney to satisfy the

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court's order?

A. I don't understand the question.

ALEXANDER & SAUNAR (619} 235-0214

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Q.

A.

Your attorney has records of the cases, correct?

Of the bankruptcy?

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3 Q. You state that all of these were resolved in

4 bankruptcy, so would not your attorney have had the records of

5 those cases?

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A.

I -- well

That may not have been a correct statement. If

when we filed bankruptcy -- as I said, most of them

were resolved because most of them involved leases on equipment

which were resolved prior to the actual bankruptcy. A copying

10 machine was returned to leasee or whatever.

11 Q. What efforts did you make to identify the name of

12 the case, the name of the court and the court number for each of

13 those?

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A. Since these suits were of such an insignificant

amount, sir, I didn't even think of going to the man who carried

my bankruptcy because -- well, I didn't think of it.

Q. An action was filed against you by the U.S. Postal

18 Service, was it not?

19 A. That was aft~r the filing of this suit, sir, I

20 believe.

Q.

A.

Q.

Well, there was no limitation on the court's order.

Then I misinterpreted that, sir.

Did you make any attempt to provide the information

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regarding the postal suit?

A. No, because I did not think that was covered in


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1 this. I will be happy to do so.

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Q. What about the case in Illinois where you were sued

for your book recommending the use of mega doses of vitamin A

for the treatment of acne. Was that suit filed after this

5 lawsuit?

6 A. No. If I remember correctly, it was long, long

7 before the lawsuit.

8 Q. You did not provide a copy of the court or the case

9 name or the court number for that suit either, did you?

10 A. No, sir. And if I was remiss in this, I wish

11 somebody had advised me and I would have done everything I could

12 and I will. If you wish me to do this, please indicate so. Do

13 you have that information?

14 Q. The court has ordered you to provide it to me.

15 Your attorney understands that.

16 A. I'll do the best I can to get all of that

17 information, sir.

18 Q. Actions were brought against you in the state court

19 of California for practice of medicine without a license; is

20 that correct?

21 A. That was expunged from the record pursuant to

22 California law, sir, and my understanding of the law is that it

23 is legal for me to say that it did not occur.

24 Q. I would like the court case name and case number

25 for that case also, as well as any other cases.


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MR. MORRIS: I've got them.

BY MR. BOTTS:

Q. Any and all cases. And this was due two weeks ago,

your counsel understands the urgency.

A. It was not done with any intent, Mr. Botts.

Q. It doesn't make any difference.

MR. MORRIS: For the record, we'll try and clear this up

as quickly as possible.

BY MR. BOTTS:

Q. With regards to International Institute, were legal

actions brought by or against them?

A. I don't know, but I don't believe so.

Q. Where would you go to check?

A. The only place I would have would be the attorney

who filed my bankruptcy.

Q. Will you check with him?

A. Yes, I will, sir.

Q. Was a lawsuit filed against you by Frank Salaman?

A. No.

Q. There has been testimony to that.

A. That's absolutely a new one to me.

Q. Well, you have answered the question. There's no

reason to laugh.

When did you resign from the National Health

Federation?


Approximately June 17th.

1989?

Yes, sir. II

What was the reason for that resignation?

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A.

Q.

A.

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A. There was conflict on the board and I did not wish

6 to continue to be a part of it, so I resigned.

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MR. BOTTS: Please mark this as 13, but don't mark it.

That's my original. I'll need a copy made.

9 BY MR. BOTTS:

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Q. I hand you now what's been marked as Exhibit 13 and

ask you if that is a copy of your letter of resignation.

A. Yes, it is.

MR. BOTTS: Same thing. Mark that as 14, please.

THE WITNESS: I never saw that letter.

15 BY MR. BOTTS:

16 Q. I have handed you Exhibit 14 and asked you about

17 that letter which purports to be a letter from Maureen Salaman

18 on NHF letterhead to you dated June 19th, 1989. Do you

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recognize that letter?

A.

Q.

No, I do not.

Would you be able to receive mail at the address

22 9048 Adams, Huntington Beach, California 92646?

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Q.

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No, sir.

What is that address?

It was an old address that doesn't have a forward


1 on it anymore.

2 Q. Did Maureen Salaman ever discuss with you the

3 reasons that you had not appeared on her either radio or

4 television show -- or on her television show and offered to

5 allow you to appear on the P.T.L. network?

A.

Q.

I'm not sure I understand the question.

Did Maureen Salaman ever discuss with you your

appearing on her show on the P.T.L. network?

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9 A. Oh, I think in passing she may have, but I do not

10 recall any particular invitation for a specific date, sir.

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MR. BOTTS: 15. Go ahead and mark these as 16 and 17.

THE WITNESS: I did send that to her.

13 BY MR. BOTTS:

14 Q. You are stating Exhibit 17 is an accurate copy of a

15 facsimile?

16 A. This is a fax that I had sent to her. I do not

17 remember sending that though.

18 Q. With regards to 15 and 16, are you familiar with

19 those two letters?

20 A. I am not familiar with this one, sir. If you'll

21 note it was Adams 15. I cannot honestly say that I remember

22 this one because I remember one from --

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Q.

A.

16?

Yeah, and it's a fax so -- at least it could have

25 been a fax, I don't know. You know, come to think of it, that


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is not correctly addressed, sir.

Q. What is that, that address?

A. That one from Trowbridge.

MR. MORRIS: 16.

BY MR. BOTTS:

Q. 16.

A. Is that 323? Yeah, that's not a correct address.

Q. What is located at 323 East San Ysidro Boulevard?

A. This was an old address.

Q. Is your fax number currently 1-619-428-6548?

A. I believe it is, sir.

Q. Where does that ring into?

A. That's 424 Calle Primera.

Q. Located where?

A. San Ysidro.

Q. Who is the attorney for International Institute?

A. Robert Leff.

Q. Have you checked with Mr. Leff to obtain corporate

records for the International Institute?

A. Yes, I did and when I called him, which was during

that very short period of time he was away, also out of the

country and -- but I remember him -- evidently you had called

him before and he mentioned that -- I believe he mentioned he

didn't have any of the records anymore, but I will contact him.

Q. He was also an officer of International Institute,


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was he not?

A.

Q.

A.

Yes, he was.

What is the Health Research Foundation?

Health Research Foundation is a 501-C-3 public

5 corporation that --

Public benefit corporation?

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Q.

A. Public benefit corporation which organized I think

four years ago.

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Tipps.

Q.

A.

Q.

Who organized that corporation?

I think the attorney who organized it was Scott

Did the National Health Federation play any part in

13 organizing that corporation?

14 A. The members -- the officers of the foundation were

15 all NHF members, to the best of my knowledge,.

16 Q. Where were the records kept? You say this was

17 begun in roughly 1984, '85?

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A.

Q.

20 1984, 1985?

A.

Q.

A.

I don't know for sure, sir.

Is that the best of your recollection, roughly

Yes.

What was the purpose of the corporation?

At that time we were considering beginning an

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24 educational service for the public on advances in alternative

25 medicine.


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3 so --

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Q.

A.

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What form would that educational service take?

I don't believe that the plan was ever completed

Did they ever accomplish anything?

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Q.

A. I don't believe we ever published anything that was

6 distributed, no, sir.

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Q.

A.

How was the corporation financed?

There were some minor donations that came in and

9 that was the only funding that I am aware of.

10 Q. In the four or so years that it was in operation,

11 how much money was raised by the foundation?

12 A. I am quite sure less than $10,000, most of which is

13 still there.

14 Q. Where were the corporate records for that

15 foundation located?

16 A. I don't know for sure. They were in the hands of

17 the secretary, to the best of my knowledge.

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Q.

A.

Q.

Who was the secretary?

I believe Hal Card was.

Do you know whether they were at the National

21 Health Federation headquarters?

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A.

Q.

A.

Q.

They could have been.

Do you know where they are now?

Yes.

Where is that?


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Q.

records?

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I have them in my possession.

Does Linda Wick have possession of some of those

4 A. No, sir. As an officer of that corporation, I felt

5 it my duty to take possession of them when I left the

6 federation.

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Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

What is your office with the corporation?

I'm a member of the board of that organization.

Who is the president?

Frank Salaman, I believe.

Who is the vice-president?

We have not been very active and I'm really not

13 sure the slate of officers, sir.

Q.

A.

Who is the secretary?

As I indicated, I believe -- there are four

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16 officers that I'm aware of: Frank Salaman, Don Pickett, Hal

17 Card and myself. I'm quite sure Frank Salaman is president.

Q. Well, you said that you were a board member, you 18

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didn't indicate that you were an officer.

A. Well, I may be an officer. Because of the

21 inactivity I don't think that was ever a -- we didn't go around

22 wearing pins.

23 Q. Did the National Health Foundation, is that the

24 correct name?

25 A. Yes, sir.


1 Q.

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Which would be the initials NHF, did it file income

2 tax returns for the year 1988?

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I don't know, sir.

Did it file tax returns for the year 1987?

I don't know.

Did it file tax returns for the year 1986?

I don't know.

What about 1985?

I don't know.

1984?

I don't know.

Do you know that it ever filed tax returns?

I don't know.

Who would be in charge of that -- tax returns?

I don't know.

Would it be Hal Card?

I don't know.

You indicated that he was the secretary.

I indicated I thought he was the secretary, sir.

And you also indicated I believe that the corporate

21 records were in his possession, is that correct, prior to your

22 taking them?

23

24

A.

Q.

Yes, sir.

You were a member of the board and he was the

25 secretary. He was in possession of the corporate records. Why


21

did you feel compelled to take them from the secretary? 1

2

3

4

A. Because at that time he had resigned his position

at the federation.

Q. What difference would that make if he's still the

5 secretary of the Natural Health Foundation?

6 A. There was no reason to leave the records at a

7 location where we might not have access to them.

8 Q. Why couldn't Hal Card have taken them from the

9 office and kept them in his possession?

10

11

A.

Q.

I don't know.

Well, you made the decision. Upon what did you

12 base the decision?

13

14

15

16

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Hal Card was in flux, I was not.

Was Frank Salaman in flux?

No, sir.

He was the president of the corporation, why didn't

17 he take the records?

18

19

20

21

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

He didn't request them, sir.

And Don Pickett, why didn't he take the records?

Didn't request them.

Did you discuss with the other officers and board

22 members that you would take the records with you before you did

23 it?

24

25

A.

Q.

I had informed them, sir.

How did you get those records from the NHF


1 headquarters and Hal Card?

2

3

4

5

6

7

8 time?

9

10

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

I merely requested that he bring them to me.

When did he bring them to you?

Somewhere around the end of June.

1989?

1989.

Did he bring other NHF records with him at that

No, he did not.

Are you aware that at this time several years of

11 NHF records are missing from the headquarters building?

No, I am not.

You have never been informed of that fact?

No, sir.

22

12

13

14

15

A.

Q.

A.

Q. Have you been informed of the fact that there are

16 problems with the financial situation of NHF, that certain funds

17 and financial records seem to be missing?

18

19

MR. MORRIS: Assuming those are facts.

MR. BOTTS: I'm assuming those are facts if he's been

20 informed of that.

21 MR. MORRIS: I would object to the improper hypothetical

22 question.

23 Subject to that, you can go ahead and answer.

24 THE WITNESS: I have heard rumors, I know nothing as

25 fact.


1

2

3

4

BY MR. BOTTS:

Q.

A.

What rumors have you heard?

That there are

MR. MORRIS: At this point any discussions between you

23

5 and I that have taken place this morning are not to be divulged,

6 anything other than that, you can respond to the question.

7

8

THE WITNESS: I have heard allegations via third, fourth

and fifth parties that somebody is saying that there are things

9 missing at NHF, I know of no factual evidence of such.

10 BY MR. BOTTS:

11

12

13 camera.

14

15

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

What things were you told were missing?

The only thing that I specifically recall was a

Nothing regarding finances?

Not as far, no. Not as far as National Health

16 Federation was concerned.

-17

18

19

20

21

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Nothing regarding business records?

No.

Nothing rega~ding missing automobiles?

No. NHF never had any automobiles, sir.

That is not what I'm asking. I'm asking whether

22 the rumors that you've heard allege that you were responsible

23 for missing automobiles.

24

25

A.

Q.

That I was responsible?

That is the question I asked.


1

2

3

4

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

No, sir.

You've not heard those rumors?

No, sir.

After you heard that the camera was missing, did

5 you contact Maureen Salaman regarding that rumor?

6 A. No, sir.

24

7 Q. Did you do anything to check into that fact or the

8 truth of the rumor that it had been alleged that you were

9 responsible for a missing camera?

10

11

12

A. It was never alleged that I was responsible for a

missing camera.

Q. Then perhaps I misunderstood the rumor you were

13 talking about. You have stated that there was a camera missing.

14 What was the substance of that rumor? Why were you told that?

15 MR. MORRIS: I don't want him to get into discussion

16 about a rumor that he has very little information about.

17 MR. BOTTS: Let me restate that so he and I understand

18 the question. He seems confused at this point and I'm trying to

19 clarify it for him.

20 BY MR. BOTTS:

21 Q. You testified earlier that you had heard rumors

22 regarding items missing from NHF; is that correct?

23

24

25

A. That's correct.

MR. MORRIS: Well, let's not reiterate the testimony.

MR. BOTTS: I'm just trying to focus and this is


1

2

preliminary.

MR. MORRIS: His indication is that he's heard some

25

3 rumors and he specifically recalls one of the rumors concerning

4 a camera. So that would seem to me that he's focused his

5 recollection on one rumor concerning one camera.

6 MR. BOTTS: Wait for my next question, maybe we can

7 resolve this.

8

9

BY MR. BOTTS:

Q. Did that rumor allege that you were responsible for

10 the missing camera?

11

12

A.

Q.

No, sir.

Were there any rumors or things passed back to you

13 that it was alleged that you had been responsible for missing

14 documents, business records and financial records?

15

16

17

18

MR. MORRIS: I will object to that as being repetitive.

Subject to that, go ahead and answer it.

THE WITNESS: No.

MR. BOTTS: Same thing with these, I'm afraid.

19 BY MR. BOTTS:

20 Q. I hand you now what's been marked as Exhibits 18

21 and 19. I'll give you and your counsel a minute to look at

22 them.

23 BY MR. BOTTS:

24 Have you had an opportunity to review Exhibits 17

25 and 18.


1

2

3

A. Yes, I have.

MR. MORRIS: 18 and 19.

MR. BOTTS: Excuse me, 18 and 19.

4 BY MR. BOTTS:

26

5 Q. To the best of your recollection on that review are

6 these accurate copies of letters from two different attorneys on

7 your behalf?

8

9

A. Yes, they are.

MR. MORRIS: What those have to do with this lawsuit is

10 beyond me. Is there any indication you can give at this point

11 this morning as to what those have to do with this lawsuit?

12 MR. BOTTS: No, I'm just going to continue with the

13 deposition.

14 MR. MORRIS: I was just curious.

15 BY MR. BOTTS:

16

17

Q. Did you request who these copies should be mailed

to in the letter from William Moore, Exhibit 18? Did you

18 request that it be mailed to the present board of directors of

19 the National Health Federation?

Yes, sir. 20

21

A.

Q. Did you request that it we mailed to certain

22 specified other individuals?

A. Yes, sir. 23

24 MR. MORRIS: At this point I will object to any

25 discussions that he had with his attorney as calling for


,-,,.,7

1

2

3

4

5

27

protected witness attorney-client privilege and from now on I'll

instruct you not to answer any further questions about

discussions you had with your attorneys.

MR. BOTTS: I'm not certain that every question I'm going

to ask is going to be the attorney-client privilege, so I would

6 just as soon you not instruct him before I ask my questions.

7

8

MR. MORRIS: All right. We'll deal with them one at a

time, that's fine.

9 BY MR. BOTTS:

10 Q. A copy of this letter was sent to P.J. Lisa. Did

11 you specifically request that it be sent to P.J. Lisa?

12 MR. MORRIS: I will object as that assumes facts not in

13 evidence. The document you have before you indicates that a

14 carbon copy was sent to P.J. Lisa, but he doesn't know that.

15 MR. BOTTS: He hasn't testified to that. That's exactly

16 what I asked him.

17 MR. MORRIS: Your statement was a copy of this was sent

18 to P.J. Lisa and I am going to object to that as being an

19 improper hypothetical question and assuming facts not in

20 evidence.

21 MR. BOTTS: If that's your objection, I'll amend the

22 question.

23 BY MR. BOTTS:

24 Q. The list of persons to whom copies were sent

25 includes the name P.J. Lisa. My question is, did you request


28

1 that a copy of this letter be sent to P. J. Lisa?

2

3

4

5

MR. MORRIS: And at this point if your request would have

been made to your attorney, then I'll instruct you not to answer

that as that invades the attorney-client privilege.

MR. BOTTS: We'll take this one to the court because I

6 think this is material and is not attorney-client.

7

8

9

MR. MORRIS: Explain to me, give me an opportunity to

hear your side of it then. Why on earth would it not be -

THE WITNESS: I think, however, my answer is going to

10 solve this whole problem.

11 MR. MORRIS: If you want to respond to the question, then

12 feel free to do so.

13 THE WITNESS: The response to the question shows that

14 copies were to be sent to these people, they were not. There

15 hasn't been a single copy sent to anybody. I personally handed

16 it to a few members of the board at the Chicago NHF meeting.

17 Other than that it has not gone to anyone, to my knowledge.

18 BY MR. BOTTS:

19 Q. Is it your testimony, then, that this did not go to

20 Maureen Salaman?

21

22

23

24 you --

25

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

It was personally handed to Maureen Salaman, sir.

What other board members did you hand this to?

If you'll let me see that list, I can probably tell

Certainly.


29

1 A. -- if that would help.

2 John Trowbridge, Joel Wallach, Joe Bassett, AL

3 Battista, Kirkpatrick Dilling, Walter Grotz, Jack Ritchason. To

4 the best of my knowledge, those are the people that received

5 this document, sir.

6 Q.

7 attorney Van

8

9

10

11

12

13

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

14 directors?

15

16

·17

18

19

20

21

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Is that the same with Exhibit 19, the letter from

Haynie.

-- Haynie, H-a-y-n-i-e?

Yes, sir.

Did you hand this letter to them also?

They were together in the packet.

Is Joel Wallach a member of the NHF board of

Yes, he is.

When was he elected or appointed to that board?

1988.

By what, election or appointment?

He was appointed to fill a vacancy.

Which vacancy was that?

I'm not sure, sir. There were several vacancies at

22 that particular time.

23

24

25

Q. Do you recall when in 1988 that appointment was

made, early or late?

A. Late.


Q. Who was the appointment made by? 1

2

3

A. That particular appointment was made by myself,

ratified by the board of governors.

4 Q. When the board of governors has a meeting, are

5 copies of the minutes distributed to the board members?

6

7

8

9

A.

Q.

headquarters?

A.

Yes, sir.

Are copies of the minutes kept at the NHF

To the best of my knowledge, sir, I do not and

10 never have been active at the headquarters.

11

12

13

Q.

A.

Q.

Do you have a key to that building?

No, sir, never have.

Have you ever had to get into the building, used

14 someone else's key?

15

16

A.

Q.

Never.

Do you have a file into which you put board of

17 directors' minutes meetings?

18

19

A.

Q.

20 meetings?

21 A.

22 have some.

23 Q.

Not a file, sir.

Have you kept any of the board of directors

I may have some of them. In fact, I probably do

As your counsel may or may not know, we have not

24 received any board of directors' minutes.

30

25 MR. MORRIS: I know that you indicated that yesterday and


. "ii, 8

1

2

3

4

31

I've discussed that matter with Mr. Donsbach this morning in

passing. He indicated whatever copies he has of board meetings,

he'd be happy to give to you as soon as possible.

MR. BOTTS: We'll expect to receive those early next

5 week.

6 THE WITNESS: If I can make a suggestion, it's up to you,

7 you can either direct or ask Maureen or somebody to request

8 copies from the existing board of governors and you may be able

9 to assemble a full copy of many years back.

10 BY MR. BOTTS:

11

12

Q.

A.

I intend to do that also.

I have no idea why they're not there. There's no

13 reason for them not to be there .

14 Q. They're among the records that are no longer at the

15 headquarters. We did receive executive committee minutes, but

16

17

not board of directors' minutes.

A. Okay. The executive committee meets every month, I

18 can't figure out why they can't find the annual meetings.

19 Q. They can't find the phone records from last month,

20 is my understanding. or from June of this year.

21 At the present time, what is your gross income?

22 Annually or monthly, if that's easier for you to calculate.

23

24

25

MR. MORRIS: Just for the record, I will object to that

as being totally irrelevant. Go ahead and answer it.

THE WITNESS: You want me to answer?


32

MR. MORRIS: Yes. 1

2 THE WITNESS: Approximately -- can I talk to my counsel

3 about this for a minute? I'll do it on the record if you wish,

4 I just don't know how to answer the question.

5 BY MR. BOTTS:

6 Q. Go ahead and explain it on the record because I'll

7 ask you to do it again anyway. If there are parameters to it

8 that you want to explain, it's probablely better to just go

9 ahead and do it on the record.

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

A. Okay.

MR. MORRIS: If you want to talk to me you can.

MR. BOTTS: Yes.

THE WITNESS: I get a salary at this time of $2500 a

month, but they also furnish me with a car. Is that -- is that

considered income? And how much is it worth?

MR. MORRIS: Why don't you just indicate to Mr. Botts

that you receive a salary and a car.

THE WITNESS: Right. And I receive expenses whenever I

travel.

MR. MORRIS: It's not income.

21 BY MR. BOTTS:

22 Q.

23 expenses?

24

25

A.

Q.

Who is that from the salary and the car and the

From the hospital.

Which hospital?


.·'lll

33

Hospital Santa Monica.

Any other sources of income?

1

2

3

A.

Q.

A. I get a minor income from -- again here, I might as

4 well just lay it out because the person who sells products under

5 my name is supposed to pay me a small royalty, he hasn't paid me

6 since 1988. That is a source of supposed income and it hasn't

7 been an income.

8

9

Q.

A.

What product and person is that?

It's a company called S.R.V. They sell

10 Dr. Donsbach products, brand name products.

11

12 S.R.V.?

13

14

15

16

Q.

A.

Q.

Is there a person there who's responsible for

Yes, Lou Paulson.

Are there any other sources?

MR. MORRIS: These are present sources of income.

THE WITNESS: I receive through that corporation,

17 although again I haven't received anything this year.

18

19

MR. MORRIS: Then it's not income.

MR. BOTTS: If he's expected to receive it. If he's got

20 a million dollars coming in next week, I'm going to call it

21 income.

22 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I have no other major sources of

23 income that would be significant.

24 BY MR. BOTTS:

25 Q. What about from the Dr. Donsbach Tells You series


34

1 of books?

2 A. Well, that's what I -- the company in Mexico that

3 owns that now who is trying to bring it back is supposed to pay

4 me a royalty, but they also haven't because they've spent all

5

6

7

8

9

their money on trying to print books and so forth.

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

them?

Poland?

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

18 of protocol.

19

20

Q.

A.

What about from the Aqua Caliente, are you paid by

That's all included in that corporate structure.

For hospital Santa Monica?

Yes, sir.

What about for the clinic you recently opened in

I get no money from that, sir.

Who opened that clinic?

Polish government, business people in Sweden.

How did you become involved in it?

I was asked to act as consultant, adviser, director

And you are doing all of that for free?

I am doing it because the Polish government has --

21 well, I was given a share in the corporate -- Polish corporation

22 that is doing it, but even if it ever becomes profitable to the

23 point that there is a distribution of wealth, the Polish law

24 does not allow you to take money out of Poland. The reason I

25 did it was simply because the Polish government has said they


9

35

1 would publish the findings of the therapies used at that

2 hospital.

3 Q. What is the name of the corporation or organization

4 behind it?

5 A. Sir, I cannot give you that. It's a long Polish

6 name and I'll be happy to furnish you with it if it's necessary,

7 but I do not have it.

8 Q. If you could find it and give it to your attorney,

9 I'll get it from him.

10

11

MR. MORRIS: The name of the Polish corporation?

MR. BOTTS: Yes, that he has this arrangement with.

12 BY MR. BOTTS:

13

14

15

16

·17

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

18 to be used?

Where is the location of this clinic in Poland?

Kamien, Pomorsky.

Do you think you can spell that for our reporter.

K-a-m-i-e-n, P-o-m-o-r-s-k-y.

What theories are being used there or are planned

19 MR. MORRIS: Object to that as being irrelevant. Subject

20 to that, go ahead if you can.

21 THE WITNESS: Similar therapies as what we're using at

22 Hospital Santa Monica.

23 BY MR. BOTTS:

24

25

Q.

A.

Which would include what? Hydrogen peroxide?

It would include the use of hydrogen peroxide as a


,1111,

36

1 minor part of the total protocol, yes.

Q. What else is planned to be used there? 2

3 MR. MORRIS: I'll also object as it calls for speculation

4 on the p~rt of the witness. Subject to that, go ahead and

5 answer if you can.

6 BY MR. BOTTS:

7

8

9

10

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Is it currently doing business? Is it open now?

It's open.

What other therapies are they using there now?

There's a lot of emphasis on nutritional,

11 physiotherapy, lifestyle alteration, stress reduction.

Q. Are there specific diseases that are being treated

13 there?

A. We refer to the chronic degenerative diseases.

15 Which would be what? Q.

A.

Q.

Arthritis, diabetes, cancer, multiple sclerosis.

Treatments for AIDS being offered there?

A. 18 No, s·

Q. Are treatments for AIDS being offered at Hospital

20 Santa Monica and/or Aqua Caliente?

A. No, sir. 21

22 MR. MORRIS: For the record, object to this questioning

23 as being totally irrelevant to this lawsuit.

24 BY MR. BOTTS:

25 Q. Are there any other sources of income at the


37

1 present time that you've not stated?

No, sir. Not that I recall. 2

3

A.

Q. What was the financial status of NHF when you left

4 in June of this year, was it in the black or in the red?

5 A. I don't know that I ever recall the federation

6 being very much solidly in the black. We've always been a

7 month-to-month organization. Usually have months of the year

8 that are, because of conventions or whatever, that we might be

9 ahead and then months of the year that we're behind. At the

10 time I left, the federation was behind.

11 Q. How did you know that they were behind, were you

12 receiving financial reports of some sort?

13 A. At executive committee meetings we had a financial

14 report presented each time.

15 Q. Are you presently operating or involved with an

16

17

18

organization known as the Coalition for Alternative Therapy or

something to that extent, something similar to that?

A. I am involved with the Confederation of Health

19 Organizations.

20 Q. Are you familiar with an organization known as the

21 Coalition for Alternative Therapies?

22

23

24

25

A.

Q.

(Witness shakes head.)

Have you ever heard of it?

MR. MORRIS: You have to say "yes" or "no."

THE WITNESS: You know, there's so many things out there.


38

1 No, I don't believe I do. If you can enlighten me further who's

2 involved in it, I might be

3 BY MR. BOTTS:

Q. Well, I'll give you some names of individuals that 4

5 I believe are involved. NHF and Clinton Miller with Frank

6 Weiwel and IAT, Michael Evers, Michael Culbert, Catherine

7 Frompovich may or may not be involved.

8

9

10 not.

11

12

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

I've never been involved with that.

An organization for the -- if you're not, you're

No, I'm not.

Are you familiar with the corporation or business

13 known as Eye-To-Eye?

14 A. I think -- yeah, I've seen the advertisements. I

15 think Hal and somebody else was involved in that.

16

17

18

Q.

A.

Q.

Were you involved with the corporation

No, sir.

You stated that you're currently involved in an

19 organization known as the Confederation of Health Organizations;

20 is that correct?

21

22

A.

Q.

Right.

What is the organization and purpose of the

23 confederation?

24 A. Primarily to create a better understanding among

25 the various health organizations that are oftentimes unaware of


10

39

1

2

what they're all doing.

Q. Do you have members at this time, organization

3 members?

A. It was designed as an organization membership only, 4

5

6

not an individual membership, if you will.

Q.

7 members?

8 A.

9 members.

10

11

Q.

A.

Do you at this time have organizations who are

Yeah. There's probably a half a dozen who are

Who are those at this time?

Could I defer on that and I will give you a precise

12 list Monday.

13

14

15

16

17

18

hard?

was the

19 was

20

21 time?

22

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

23 Company.

24

25

Q.

A.

Who do you recall now?

Well --

If there are only six of them, it shouldn't be too

The problem is these names I don't remember. One

something to do with natural birth movement that

Are there any that you recall specifically at this

One of the founding member was the Haas Publication

H-a-s-s?

H-a-a-s.


I~

Are there any others that you can think of now?

The Eclectic Medical Association.

40

1

2

3

Q.

A.

Q. This might be a good time to take a break for our

4 reporter's sake. Give you a chance to organize your thoughts.

5 We'll take a short break.

6 (Recess taken.)

7

8

MR. BOTTS: We are back on the record. We just figured

out the taxes and as long as we discussed them earlier, I'd just

9 assume that it was correctly reflected in the record. Presently

10 missing is all of the tax returns filed since '84 by

11 Mr. Donsbach, the International Institute tax returns for the

12 years 1980, '81, 82, the state return for 1983 and the federal

13 return for the year 1985 and counsel has assured me he'll

14 MR. MORRIS: We're going to get on that attempt to

15 produce that as quickly as possible.

16

17

BY MR. BOTTS:

Q. What, if anything, was the relationship between

18 International Institute and Donsbach University?

19 A.

20 institute.

21

22

23

24

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Donsbach University purchased books from the

Were there offices located in the same building?

During some years, yes.

Did they share personnel or office facilities?

They did not share personnel. By office

25 facilities, would you clarify that.


41

1 Q. Typewriters, computers, postal stamps, Pitney Bowes

2 machines, copy machines, filing services.

3 A. No, they were separate corporations and they were

4 kept separate.

5 Q. During what years did they share facilities?

6 MR. MORRIS: You are talking about the building.

7

8

MR. BOTTS: Yes. He said they shared facilities.

THE WITNESS: I would say probably 1 82, 1 83, 1 84.

9 BY MR. BOTTS:

10 Q.

11 Institute go?

12

13

14

15

16

·17

18

19

20

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

In '84 when they separated, where did International

On Adams Street.

Do you recall the address?

No, sir.

Was it 4038 Adams?

I don't know.

Was it next door to ORK at 4048?

It was two doors down.

What was between the two businesses?

There was a beauty shop and part time an empty

21 store and I think there was a shoe store there or something.

22 Q. Did International Institute and ORK share any

23 facilities, personnel?

24

25

A. No, sir.

MR. BOTTS: Let's mark these as 20 and 21. Again,


42

1 they're my originals, I apologize.

2 BY MR. BOTTS:

3 Q. I hand you and your attorney now what have been

4 marked as Exhibits 20 and 21 which I'll give you a minute to

5 look through them.

6 You have had an opportunity to review Exhibits 20 and

7 21 with your attorney; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Those were produced to me as a result of requests

10 for production to Maureen Salaman. First Exhibit 20 purports to

11 be a letter dated November 6, 1985 discussing Donsbach

12 University. The front page being letterhead from International

13 Institute, the second two pages not having any letterhead or

14 such designation. Do you recall this letter going out to

15 Donsbach University students or graduates at approximately that

16

17

date?

A.

18 Mr. Botts?

Q.

A.

This may not be proper. Can I ask you a question,

Maybe you'd better ask your attorney first.

There's nothing on this page. If this is a copy of

19

20

21

22

a letter, there is no letterhead.

MR. MORRIS: True.

23 BY MR. BOTTS:

24 Q. My question to you, it was presented to me in this

25 form with this letterhead attached to this letter. The first


43

1 page of the letter having no room for a letterhead and a blank

2 letterhead for International Institute attached to the front

3 page.

4 A. That's stupid.

5 MR. MORRIS: Do you know if this letter went out with

6 this letterhead?

7 THE WITNESS: No.

8 BY MR. BOTTS:

9 Q. Is this accurate letterhead for International

10 Institute?

11

12

A.

Q.

It was a letterhead that we used, yes, sir.

Was there a certain period of time that you used

13 this one?

14 MR. MORRIS: You are talking about when the institute

15 used that letterhead.

MR. BOTTS: Correct. 16

17 THE WITNESS: It could be dependent on this phone number.

18 I don't know. Because the institute was at four different

19 locations over a period of time, so I have no knowledge at all

20 whether this letterhead was a number that we used during this

21 purported time. There's no way that I would send out a blank

22 letterhead with this. No way.

23 BY MR. BOTTS:

24 Q. Directing your attention to the text of the letter,

25 do you recall sending this text of the letter to students of


/$\

.Ll

44

1 Donsbach University or recent graduates? Would be November of

2 1985.

3

4

5

6

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Yes.

The text of that letter is correct?

I believe it is.

At that time did you have a word processor in late

7 1985 that you used?

8

9

10

11

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

I don't know.

Have you ever had a

I think it referred to it in one of the letters.

My question to you is, did you have one during that

12 period of time?

13

14

15

16

MR. MORRIS: During the period of time when -

MR. BOTTS: When this letter came out.

MR. MORRIS: When Exhibit 20 came out.

THE WITNESS: I would assume.

17 BY MR. BOTTS:

18 Q. The word processor that you had, did it have a

19 tractor feed? Did it print off of like a box of paper where all

20 the sheets were connected?

A. No, sir. 21

22 MR. MORRIS: That's if you had one. You're assuming you

23 had one or you don't know?

24 THE WITNESS: I'm sure I did when I think about it

25 because we had computers in the office. If I'm going to write a


45

1 letter and I'm going to put it on a letterhead, all you do is

2 put it in the copy machine and you have the letterhead. I'm not

3 going to do this.

4 BY MR. BOTTS:

5 Q. I hand you Exhibit 21 which purports to be a letter

6 to Maureen Salaman attached behind letterhead for International

7

8

9

10

Institute. I'll assume that your comments regarding the blank

letterhead on Exhibit 20 would apply also to Exhibit 21.

A. Yes, sir.

MR. MORRIS: And those comments are indicating that he

11 would not have mailed out a blank letterhead

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

MR. BOTTS: Yes, what he stated, just to save time.

BY MR. BOTTS:

Q. Directing your attention to the text of that

letter, is that, to the best of your knowledge, an accurate copy

of the letter you sent?

A.

Q.

I do not remember the letter, sir.

Could it have been? Is there any reason that you

19 would think that it is not a letter that you sent?

20 MR. MORRIS: I will object to that as calling for

21 speculation. He has answered the question.

22 THE WITNESS: I'd prefer not to comment on it because I

23 don't remember the letter.

24

25

BY MR. BOTTS:

Q. Is there a reason that you can conclude that it is


1'1!11.

/~

."l!lli

1 not a letter from him?

A.

Q.

exhibit?

A.

Q.

No.

There is a signature on the third page of that

Right.

Is that your signature?

A. It looks like my signature, yes, sir.

46

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

Q. There is some writing on the bottom of that page,

is that your handwriting?

10 A. It looks like it, sir.

11 Q. Did you ever write a personal check directly to

12 Peter Joseph Lisa to finance his investigation of either Dr.

13

14

15

16

17

Herbert or Dr. Renner?

that?

A.

Q.

A.

I don't recall that, sir.

Do you recall specifically that you did not do

I recall specifically that I did not hire Joe Lisa

18 to investigate either Renner or Herbert.

19 Q. Did you ever, to your knowledge, write a personal

20 check to Joe Lisa for anything?

21 A. I probably have written two or three checks. Now

22 you're saying personal check.

23 Q. Well okay. Right now I'm focusing on personal

24 economics, that's correct.

25 A. I don't know.


1

2 three.

Q.

A.

Q.

47

You started to say you probably had written two or

Checks to Joe Lisa.

Is it your testimony, then, that those were not

3

4

5

6

7

personal checks?

A.

Q.

I don't know.

Do you recall having written two or three checks in

8 some capacity to him personally or on behalf of a corporation?

9

10

A.

Q.

Yes.

Do you recall whether or not you issued a check

11 from NHF to Mr. Lisa?

12 A. I do not sign checks for NHF, sir, so I would not

13 issue a check.

14 Q. Do you know whether Don Pickett has ever given

15 money to Mr. Lisa either by check or cash?

16

·17

A.

Q.

18 Mr. Lisa?

19

20

21

A.

Q.

A.

I don't know.

Do you know whether NHF has ever written checks to

I believe they have.

Do you know what those checks were for?

I believe Joe was hired to do some research in the

22 health field for the federation and was paid some money

23 therefore.

24

25

Q.

A.

What research was that?

I do not recall, sir.


~12

1 Q.

48

Do you know what research in health that Mr. Lisa

2 would be competent to do?

3 A. Mr. Lisa focuses on the conflict between allopathic

4 and holistic medicine.

5 Q. So his research would be is it your testimony

6 that his research was related to that conflict?

7 MR. MORRIS: I think his testimony is he doesn't recall

8 what research Lisa did.

9 MR. BOTTS: I'm hoping to focus him a little bit here.

10 BY MR. BOTTS:

11

12

13

Q.

A.

Q.

Does he do research on diseases and products?

Not to my knowledge.

To your knowledge, did NHF ever hire him to do

14 research on diseases or products?

No. 15

16

A.

Q. so the research that you hired him for, thinking

17 about it more now, do you recall that it was regarding this

18 conflict that you testified to?

19 MR. MORRIS: I will object to the form of the question as

20 improper summarization of his past testimony.

21 BY MR. BOTTS:

Q. Go ahead and answer it.

MR. MORRIS: If you can.

22

23

24 THE WITNESS: As I indicated, I don't know what we hired

25 through the federation Joe Lisa for.


.·.i0!\\

/4ili)

I I

49

1 BY MR. BOTTS:

2 Q. To your knowledge, is there anything that he does

3 besides research on the conflict, as you put it?

4

5

6

A.

another job?

Q.

Would you clarify? Do you mean does he hold

I'll try to clarify it for you. What does Joe Lisa

7 do? What is his job?

8 A. Sir, I do not know Joe Lisa that well. I had some

9 business dealings with Joe Lisa, but I don't know what his life

10 is all about.

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Institute.

A.

Q.

A.

Do you know him to be a writer?

Yes, I do.

Do you know him to be a researcher?

Yes. In writing. I mean in --

He published two books with International

Yes.

And both of those books were on what subject?

Well, they were not on the same subject. One was

20 on the conspiracy of the A.M.A. to -- against chiropractic which

21

22

23

24

was up held in court and the other one was The Great Medical

Monopoly Wars.

Q.

A.

Which was what?

Which was a expose of the conflict between the two

25 viewpoints regarding therapy.


1

2

3

Q. Mr. Lisa has also published articles in Health

Freedom News, has he not?

A. Yes, I think there's been a couple articles in

4 Health Freedom News.

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

Q.

A.

Q.

Coordinators?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

What were the subject of those articles?

I don't know, sir.

What is North American Health Insurance

They're an insurance billing organization.

Is that operated by Cameron Frye?

Yes, sir.

Was there a financial relationship between North

50

13 American Health Insurance Coordinators and NHF during the time

14 you were Chairman of the Board?

15

16

17

A.

Q.

A.

Yes, there was.

What was that relationship?

For a short period of time Cameron Frye donated

18 monies to the NHF

19 Q. Do you know that money to be one percent of the

20 gross proceeds from his business?

21

22

A.

Q.

That may be correct. No, I'm not clear on that.

Do you know why he made that donation, did he ever

23 express that reason to you?

24

25

A.

Q.

No, specifically no.

At the time you left NHF, was North American still


.. ,.

1

2

3

making those donations?

A.

Q.

4 donations?

5

6

7

8

9

10

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

No.

When did he or the business stop making the

I really don't know.

Was it in 1989?

No, I believe it was far before that, sir.

1988?

Possibly.

Does Cameron Frye or the business North American

51

11 Health Insurance Coordinators file insurance claims for people

12 treated at Hospital Santa Monica?

13

14

15

16

17

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

No, sir.

Did he ever?

Yes, sir.

Do you know why he stopped?

Well, I think the administration of Hospital Santa

18 Monica decided not to use his services anymore.

19

20

21

22

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

23 Anthony.

24

25

Q.

A.

Do they use someone else at this time?

Yes.

Who is that?

There's another billing service run by Jerry

How do you spell his last name?

A-n-t-h-o-n-y.


1

2

3

Q.

A.

Q.

52

What is the name of the business?

I don't know.

You testified that you are the administrator of the

4 hospital; is that correct?

5

6

A.

Q.

Yes, sir.

It is your testimony now that you don't know who

7 handles the insurance claims?

8 A. I just told you the name of the person who handles

9 the insurance claims, sir.

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

testimony.

Q.

Does he have a business name?

Not to my knowledge.

Where is he located?

In Mexico.

Do you know where in Mexico?

Rosarita Beach.

Is he located within the Hospital Santa Monica?

No, sir.

Do you know his address in Rosarita Beach?

No, I do not.

You know what street he's on?

No, I do not.

Are you married at this time?

I am divorced, as we went over in the previous

You're right, we did and I looked through the


/11\13

53

1 copies of the Donsbach report and there was a cartoon that had

2

3

an arrow pointing to a woman at your side and said, "Kurt

Donsbach's beautiful wife" or something to that effect and

4 that's the reason for my question.

5 Is your bankruptcy final at this time?

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Yes.

When did that become final?

I don't have that date in my mind, sir.

Is that some time this year?

Could I -- didn't I submit that to you?

Just the initial filing, not the final ruling.

MR. MORRIS: It calls for a legal conclusion anyway. If

13 you know when your bankruptcy became final or what the

14 finalization of a bankruptcy proceeding means, then tell him.

15 THE WITNESS: I don't know the date that it was

16 finalized .

. 17 BY MR. BOTTS:

18 Q. I am not asking a specific date. Was it recently,

19 last year, end of last year?

20

21

22 year?

23

A.

Q.

A.

I'm sure it was last year.

Do you recall whether it was early or late last

No, I don't. If these things are important to you,

24 I can get you the information sir.

25 MR. MORRIS: There's no need to volunteer that.


,.,.,

1

54

THE WITNESS: While you're doing that, can I be excused

2 to go to the restroom?

3 MR. BOTTS: Certainly, I was going to suggest that we

4 take a break anyway. Your counsel has seen all of these. If he

5 wants to go over -- do you want to take time to go over anything

6 in these exhibits, from yesterday specifically? We can take

7 some time now.

8

9

MR. MORRIS: What do you mean, go over them?

MR. BOTTS: I don't know. These were given back to me

10 this morning.

11 MR. MORRIS: They're the same ones that you used

12 yesterday in Card's deposition?

13

14

MR. BOTTS: Right.

MR. MORRIS: I'll just look at them whenever you present

15 them to the witness.

16 MR. BOTTS: What I was contemplating is to just go ahead

17 and enter them all in and I'll just ask some questions.

18

19

MR. MORRIS: That's fine.

MR. BOTTS: At this time I'll just hand you what was

20 marked yesterday as Exhibits 1 through 11 and I'll give you an

21 opportunity to review them once again and discuss them with your

22 attorney.

23

24

25 that.

MR. MORRIS: We'll do that off the record.

MR. BOTTS: We'll go ahead and take a break while you do


(Recess taken.)

BY MR. BOTTS:

Q. We're back on the record. You and your attorney

have had an opportunity to look through those exhibits?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I direct your attention to the exhibits that

55

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

purport to be minutes from the executive committee meetings and

I'll just ask you generally, is there any reason after your

9 review of those documents, is there any reason to believe that

10 they're not accurate copies of the executive committee minutes?

11

12

13

A. I didn't read them word for word, but I believe

that they are minutes of the meetings.

Q. With regards to the Exhibits 1, 2, 3 and 4,

14 invoices for the purchase of The Medical Monopoly Wars, is there

15 any reason to believe that those are not accurate?

16 A. No.

17 Q. With regards to Exhibit 5, which as your attorney

18 knows is a copy of the front pages of envelopes which purport to

19 be when this bonus offer of the Lisa book was sent out, first of

20 all, do you recall the offer of that book being sent out by NHF?

21 MR. MORRIS: Well, for the record, I'd better say I

22 really don't know.

23 MR. BOTTS: Didn't I go over that with you?

24 MR. MORRIS: No, I think you talked with Mr. Card about

25 it yesterday, but I'm going to be the last one to say that I


56

1 know anything about these documents.

2 MR. BOTTS: Well, for the record, NHF produced to us a

3 box containing manila envelopes, inside which were individual

4 envelopes labeled as appears on the first three pages of Exhibit

5 5 which purported to be the contents of the mailings made on the

6 specified dates and from envelopes on those three days the

7 covers of the envelopes of which are copied there, in those

8 envelopes were included this offer.

9 BY MR. BOTTS:

10 Q. So my question is, do you recall this offer being

11 made by NHF?

12 A. I do not recall that specific offer being made no,

13 sir.

14 Q. Do you recall other offers of the Lisa book being

15 made to be given to

16

17

18

A.

Q.

A.

Yes.

-- NHF? What offers were those?

The ones that I am familiar with were the offers

19 made at conventions in which either a new member or a renewal

20 would receive a free copy of the book.

21

22 away?

23

24

25 NHF

Q.

A.

Q.

Do you know approximately how many books were given

I have absolutely no idea, sir.

Are you familiar with the accounting methods for


14

57

No, sir. 1

2

A.

Q. As a part of your duties as executive director, did

3 you --

4 A. I was not executive director, sir.

5 Q. Excuse me, Chairman of the Board. As part of your

6 duties as chairman the Board of NHF, did you ever review the

7 daily entry sheets?

Never. 8

9

A.

Q. Do you recall Mr. Lisa attending meetings of the

10 executive committee of NHF?

11 A. One of those executive committee minutes indicated

12 that Joe Lisa reported. I do not remember him being there. I

13 didn't look at the roll call, whether he was indicated as being

14 there and he may have been at one meeting, sir, but he was not

commonly at meetings. 15

16 Q. Was he commonly discussed or was his work on the

17 book discussed? Was it unusual

18 A. What's common?

19 Q. Was it unusual for -- I guess we have the minutes.

20 To your recollection. Are those minutes fairly accurate of what

21 goes on at the meetings?

A. Yes. 22

23

24

25

Q. Did NHF order materials, books or whatever directly

from International Institute?

A. I don't know, sir.


illli\

58

1 Q. Do you know that they did not?

2 A. I do not know that they did not. From the invoices

3 that you see there, it would appear that the first purchase may

4 have been made -- what was that, 9-26-86 or something like that.

5

6

Q.

A.

You are just talking about Exhibit l?

Whenever that first purchase was and that was from

7 ORK, so that probably was the first purchase.

Of the Lisa book? 8

9

Q.

A. Yeah. I believe so. Yeah. So based upon that, I

10 would say that probably NHF did not purchase directly from the

11 institute, it was purchased through DRK.

12

13

Q.

A.

For the Lisa book.

Yeah.

14 Q. Do you recall any instances where NHF would have

15 purchased thousands of dollars of material from International

16 Institute at any one time?

17 A. Not that I'm aware of, sir.

18 Q. Are you aware of any purchases in the even amount

19 of $2500 made by NHF to International Institute -- or from


A. No, sir. 21

22

23

MR. MORRIS: No, you don't recall?

THE WITNESS: He asked me if I recalled, I said no, I

24 didn't recall. What date was that?

25 BY MR. BOTTS:


/~

I

I ~

59

1 Q. Well we haven't discussed a date yet, I'm just

2 asking you generally. You don't recall any?

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

checks

BY MR.

A. (Witness shakes head.)

Q. During the years 1984-1985 do you recall receiving

from NHF in the amount of $2500?

MR. MORRIS: Him personally?

MR. BOTTS: International Institute.

THE WITNESS: They may have.

BOTTS:

Q.

A.

Do you know why?

At one time the International Institute was

12 typesetting the Health Freedom News and that may have been for

that.

Q. Would the cost of typesetting

13

14

15

16

A. I think, if I'm not mistaken, for a few months we

typeset and laid out the magazine for a flat fee and that may

~7 have been $2500 a month.

18

19

Q.

A.

20 prior to 1 85.

21 Q.

22 year?

23 A.

24 show.

25 Q.

Do you recall when that was?

No, I don't. It would be prior to 1 86 and possibly

You say several months. Could it have been all

I don't know. I don't know. NHF records should

We have discussed NHF records have been stolen or


60

1 are missing.

A. Are the annual statements missing? 2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

Q. Virtually everything for several years is missing.

Would you be surprised to find NHF in 1 84- 1 85 having written

$50,000 to International Institute?

A. Yeah.

MR. MORRIS: In total or in one check?

MR. BOTTS: Total. $2500 checks.

THE WITNESS: I can believe that they wrote them, that

10 much for the printing and -- for the typesetting and layout of

11 the magazine at $2500 per month.

12 BY MR. BOTTS:

13 Q. That would be 20 months or so. $25,000 to me seems

14 like a lot of money and if it had been received by International

15 Institute for, let's say, ten months in the year 1984 or the

16 year 1985, is that something you would recall?

17 A. No. But I do recall typesetting the magazine, sir,

18 for a flat fee and laying it out.

19 Q.

20 happened?

A.

Q.

A.

Do you recall what months or what year that

No.

Is there any way to find out?

Again, I would have to refer to -- you're saying

21

22

23

24

25

that there are no records. You've obviously got some records.

Q. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying -- your


15

61

1 counsel has reviewed everything that NHF has produced. What I

2 have reflects quite a number of checks in the amount of $2500 to

3 International Institute from NHF

4 A. Yes, and I think you will find if you do any

5 digging at all that the ledger should reflect that that was for

6 typesetting and layout of the journal. Which was at less than

7 half of what anybody else would do it.

8 Q. You have authored a large number of books; is that

9 correct?

10

11

12

13

14

A.

Q.

A large number of booklets.

Booklets. Specifically the Dr. Donsbach Tells You

What You Always Wanted to Know about such and such series.

A.

Q.

Yes, sir.

Were some of those booklets published and sold by


16

17

A.

Q.

Yes, sir.

What other companies or publishers or organizations

18 have printed or published those books?

19 A. That was totally in the International Institute up

20 until the time that they --

21

22

23

24

25

Q.

A.

Ceased doing business?

Right.

Q. And then who took over the publication and such for

the booklets?

A. There was a temporary nothing period and then when


!'ll!\

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

62

I went to Mexico the group down there took over the publication

and it's now known as Holistic Publishing.

Q. Are you an officer, director or shareholder with

Holistic Publishing?

A. I'm a minor shareholder because it's all part of

that conglomerate.

Q.

A.

Q.

What conglomerate is that?

Well, that owns the hospital.

So Holistic Publications is a division of the

10 conglomerate that owns Hospital Santa Monica and the others?

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

corporate

Q.

A.

Q.

(Witness nods head.)

Is there a name for that conglomerate?

It's under Hospital Santa Monica.

Is it incorporated?

In Mexico they use initials S-A-D-E-C-V as a

as we use I-N-C.

Is Holistic Publications incorporated separately?

No.

I would like to run through your pamphlets quickly.

20 Hopefully we can get through this quickly and ask you a few

21 questions and for the record now until I indicate otherwise,

22 we'll be discussing the Dr. Donsbach series pamphlets. You

23 wrote one on the subject of acne; is that correct?

24

25

A.

Q.

Yes, sir.

First of all let me ask you, did you actually write


63

1 these yourself?

2

3

4

5

6

A. Yes, sir. I had assistance on a few of them, but

that was noted on the title page.

Q. On the subject of acne, where did you gain your

expertise to give you the knowledge to write a book on acne?

MR. MORRIS: I will object for the record as that being

7 totally irrelevant to anything that I'm here about.

8 MR. BOTTS: No, it is relevant to what you're here about.

9

10

MR. MORRIS: Can you explain it to me? Would you?

MR. BOTTS: Well, I'll give you a running objection on

11 irrelevancy if you'd like. Is that agreeable?

12 MR. MORRIS: That would be fine.

13

14

15

THE WITNESS: My turn?

MR. MORRIS: Your turn.

THE WITNESS: I have background both as a chiropractic

16 physician and a naturopathic physician. I do a considerable

17 amount of library research and computer searches through Medlar

18 and Medlines that provides me with much of the information that

19 I use in writing books such as acne.

20 Q. Are chiropractors licensed to treat acne,

21 dermatology related conditions?

22 A. Chiropractors are licensed physicians and within

23 confines of local laws which vary widely, I should say state

24 laws, do or do not treat many different things.

25 Q. Your book on acne, is that prescribed chiropractic


1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

~ 16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

64

treatment or does it describe chiropractic treatment?

A. No, it does not.

Q. Does it describe naturopathic treatment?

A. Yes, I believe it does.

Q. What would constitute a naturopathic treatment for

acne?

A. Naturopathy is the science of things natural with a

background and following in the world of many hundreds of

millions of people that believes in approaching disease without

the use of poisonous drugs and instead the use of natural

remedies such as air, light, hydrotherapy, physiotherapy,

nutrition, dietary concentrates, et cetera.

Q. Does that book prescribe the use of mega doses of

vitamin A?

A. Yes, it does. Excuse me, I do not -- I object to

the word prescribe.

Q. What word would you prefer?

A. The book reports on the use of mega doses of

vitamin A.

Q. Have you ever been sued over the reporting of the

use of mega doses of vitamin A?

A. I was sued on the contents or the purported

application of the contents of that book, yes.

Q. Do you now have knowledge that mega doses of

vitamin A can have harmful side effects?


16

,r'1111

65

1 A. Mega doses of everything can have harmful side

2 effects, sir.

3 Q. Do you now have knowledge that the amount of

4 vitamin A reported in your book can have harmful side effects?

5 A. I would like to repeat that anything under the

6 correct circumstances may have harmful side effects, including

7 vitamin A.

8 Q. In the book, in your book, were there any warnings,

9 any such warnings regarding the use of vitamin A?

10 A. There was a warning in the front of that book that

11 cautioned everybody as to the use of its contents without the

12 advice of a competent health professional.

13 Q. What do you consider to be a competent health

14 professional?

15

16

·17

18

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

That's up to the individual's decision, sir.

Would that include a chiropractor?

That's up to the individual's decision.

In your opinion, when you wrote that and you were

19 warning people, would that include a chiropractor?

20 A. I reiterate, sir, that for some people it may

21 include a chiropractor, for others it would not.

22

23

24

Q. When you wrote it did it include a chiropractor?

MR. MORRIS: I think he has answered the question?

THE WITNESS: For the record, I think you are harassing

25 me, Mr. Botts, and I object to it.

ALEXANDER & SAUNAR {619) 235-0214

!/4'i1\

66

1 BY MR. BOTTS:

2

3

4

5

6

Q.

A.

Q.

No, I'm not harassing you.

Yes, you are.

I am trying to help you to focus on your answer.

You wrote that in the book, in the acne book, and

you state that that has some effect on the use of vitamin A that

7 you describe in your book, to use your term, and I'm asking you

8 specifically when you stated to consult a competent health

9 professional or whatever your term was, in your mind, when you

10 wrote that, did that include chiropractors?

11 A. I believe in health freedom and I believe that the

12 decision as to whether an individual is competent is not up to

13

14

15

16

me to make that decision, it is up to the individual.

Q.

A.

Q.

Is that book still on the market?

That book is still on the market.

By what study or what education did you write a

17 book on acupressure face lifts?

18

19

MR. MORRIS: What was the question again?

MR. BOTTS: I'd asked him originally on his book on acne

20 and now I'm asking about his book on acupressure face lifts.

21

22

23

24

25

MR. MORRIS: But the question was what? Did he write it?

MR. BOTTS: What gave him the education or knowledge,

expertise to write a book on acupressure face lifts.

MR. MORRIS: And we still have my continuing objection.

MR. BOTTS: I gave you a running objection.


67

1 THE WITNESS: I have taken classes in both acupressure

2 and acupuncture and I have, again, done a lot of research.

3 BY MR. BOTTS:

4 Q. How about with regards to allergies, your book on

5 allergies? What gives you the experience or expertise to write

6 a book on the treatment of allergies?

7 A. As a naturopath particularly I see a lot of allergy

8 patients and, again, the expertise derived from hundreds of

9 references that are readily available in the literature.

10 Q. Do you treat persons with allergies?

11 A. I treat persons with allergies as a consultant to

12 physicians licensed in the particular area. It should be quite

13 obvious to you I'm not licensed as a physician in Poland, but

14 the people who run that hospital are and I act as a consultant

15 for them.

16

17

Q.

A.

Do you do so in Mexico?

I act as the administrator of that hospital and

18 share experiences with the physicians who prescribe and

19 accomplish the therapy at a weekly staff meeting.

20 Q. I am not sure we got to the question, which is,

21 have you yourself ever treated anyone for allergies, either in

22 your capacity as a chiropractor or a naturopath?

23

24

A.

Q.

Yes, sir.

And now that we're talking about both Poland and

25 Mexico and you'd previously been in practice in the United


·"

,1ll\.

1 States, where was that?

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

A.

Q.

Montana.

You have written a pamphlet or a book on the

subject of alfalfa, what experience or expertise gave you the

knowledge to write a book on alfalfa?

A.

Q.

A.

We're doing -

Who are "we"?

Research in Mexico on the growing of organic

9 alfalfa and extracting juice from its leaves, drying that

10 extract for human consumption.

Who are "we" that you referred to in Mexico?

68

11

12

13

14

15

16

Q.

A. Well, basically the corporate structure of Hospital

Santa Monica.

Q.

A.

Q.

17 vitamins?

18

19

20

A.

Q.

A.

Is there a Dr. Donsbach's brand of alfalfa?

No, sir.

Is there a Dr. Donsbach's brand of various

Yes.

Is there a Dr. Donsbach's brand of vitamin A?

I don't know whether the person who sells those

21 products is selling vitamin A or not, sir.

22 Q. Are there plans for a Dr. Donsbach's brand of

23 alfalfa?

24 A. I -- no, I don't know. I don't enter into that

25 decision, sir.


17

69

Q. You wrote a book on the subject of arthritis. 1

2

3

4

5

Again, I'll ask you by what experience or training did you have

the knowledge to write a book on arthritis?

A. When I practiced in Montana I specialized in the

treatment of arthritis and took extra classes and seminars on

6 arthritis and also of course the research that is readily

7 available to anyone who wishes to take the time to get it.

8 Q. Is there an effective cure or treatment for

9 arthritis that a chiropractor can give?

10 A. In my opinion, to answer your question, there is a

11 very effective treatment for the disease known as arthritis.

12

13

Q.

A.

What is that?

I think it is fairly well outlined in the booklet

14 and I hardly think that you want me to reiterate all of the

15 things in the booklet for this record.

16 Q. Well, not all of the things, but can you summarize

17 it?

18 A. It is very difficult to summarize it because it

19 comprises many different aspects of living.

20

21

Q.

Artheez?

Would it be contained largely in Dr. Donsbach's

22 A. That is only the nutritional support that would be

23 suggested. There are other aspects that are clearly suggested.

24

25

Q.

A.

Is that suggested in the book the use of Artheez?

No, the name of any products are never mentioned in


I~

70

1 my book, sir.

2 Q. What about the use of Alereez, is that recommended

3

4

in your book on allergy?

MR. MORRIS: I think he just answered that question.

5 BY MR. BOTTS:

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

Q.

A.

A simple "yes" or "no" will do it.

My books, no.

Q. Do you know when your books are sold, are they in

the proximity of your products?

A. I have no idea.

Q. You have a booklet or book on bee pollen. By what

training or experience did you write that book?

A. That booklet was written with the assistance of Dr.

14 Morton Walker as indicated on the title.

15

16

17

18

19

20

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Then did you write any portion of that book?

Probably 20 percent of it.

Do you recall what portion that was?

No, that's been many, many years ago.

You also have a book on beauty.

That book is no longer being published, any more

21 than the book on facial acupressure.

22

23

24

25

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

You have a book on blood pressure.

Yes, sir.

Is that book being sold?

Yes, sir.


1 Q.

71

Does that describe an effective treatment for high

2 blood pressure?

3 A. It describes reputable literature references to

4 significant alternative approaches to blood pressure.

5 Q. Is there also a Dr. Donsbach product that can be

6 used as an effective treatment for blood pressure?

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

None of my booklets -

That is not what I asked.

-- any products much less blood pressure.

That is not what I asked.

Would you repeat your question, please.

I will ask that it be read back.

(Record read.)

THE WITNESS: The answer is no.

15 BY MR. BOTTS:

16

·17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

What about Dr. Donsbach's Stress Formula?

What about it?

Is that designed as a treatment for blood pressure?

No, sir.

Is there a Dr. Donsbach's brand of bee pollen?

No, sir.

Are you certain?

I never had anything to do with it, if there is.

As I say, what S.R.V. is selling, I don't know.

Q. Are you stating that you -- how -- let's take a


1

2

3

4

5 :'iii\

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

72

break here. How do they come to use your name? Are they using

it without your permission?

A. No, they have my permission.

Q. Do they have your permission to put it on any

product they want?

A. If I knew of a product that I was not -- are we on

the record? I thought you said we were taking a break.

MR. MORRIS: No, we're on the record.

BY MR. BOTTS:

Q. I'm breaking from my prior line of questioning.

A. If I knew of a product that I didn't approve of, I

would probably -- well, I would contact them, but I have never

specifically told them that they could not market a product

without my approval. So if you have evidence that they're

marketing a bee pollen, I am an unaware of it.

Q. Would you approve of bee pollen or do you approve

of a Dr. Donsbach's Bee Pollen?

A. I don't know. I think I'd have to look at the

product.

Q. You have a booklet on cancer, do you not?

A. Holistic Cancer Therapies.

Q. Is there an effective treatment for cancer,

holistic therapy for cancer?

A. In my opinion there is a very effective holistic

therapy for cancer.


1

2 /411\J.8

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

... 21

22

23

24

25

fl!\,

73

Q. Would you describe what that is? Is this for after

someone gets cancer or before they get cancer?

A. Which question do you want me to answer first?

Q. First of all, is it for people who already have

cancer, the therapy, or is it to prevent cancer?

A. If you have read my booklet on holistic cancer

therapy, it outlines 20 plus different substances which the

literature has shown to be effective in the treatment of various

forms of cancer.

Q. I will adopt the book. Are there any changes or

anything in the book that you know of that you don't approve of

or that you wish were changed?

A. I think it's a representation of what I knew at the

time it was printed.

Q. What I am asking you now is about what you know

now. You're telling me to adopt -- it is your testimony what's

in the book and I'm asking you what you know of now, is there

anything that you know of in the book that's incorrectly stated?

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. They treat cancer victims at Hospital Santa Monica?

A. Yes.

Q. Do they use your therapies to do so?

A. Along with a lot of other things.

Q. Are any of the therapies described in your cancer

book being used at Hospital Santa Monica?


1

2

A.

Q.

Certainly.

Have they been used effectively? Have they

3 resulted in cures for cancer?

74

4 A. You're using the term "cure." Clinically defined

5 the term cure means full remission for a period of five years.

6 We don't have those kind of statistics at this time.

7 Q. How long has Hospital Santa Monica been in

8 operation?

9 A. Hospital Santa Monica at its present location has

10 been in existence for two and three quarter years.

11 Q. Prior to that there was also a Hospital Santa

12 Monica, was there not?

13

14

A.

Q.

No, there was not.

What was the name of the hospital with which you

15 were associated in Mexico prior to Hospital Santa Monica?

16

17 Monica.

18

19

A.

Q.

A.

We were at Via Florista prior to Hospital Santa

Were your treatments used there?

We didn't treat many cancer patients there, if

20 that's your line of questioning.

21 Q. That wasn't my question, no. My question was, were

22 the treatments you describe in this book, were they used at the

23 prior hospital?

24 A. That particular book is solely on the treatment of

25 cancer.


!~

75

1 MR. MORRIS: He's gotten away from the book now. He just

2 wants to know about

3 THE WITNESS: He stated the treatments described in the

4 book.

5 BY MR. BOTTS:

6 Q. You treated people for cancer prior to your going

7 to Rosarita Beach, didn't you, or to Hospital Santa Monica?

8

9

A.

Q.

No. Very few.

And those very few, is there anyone who you either

10 cured or placed into remission?

11 A. Remission, yes; cured, we don't have five-year

12 statistics.

13 Q. Prior to the hospital before Santa Monica, did you

14 have another hospital

15

16

17

A. We had Via Florista, sir. And Via Florista, that

was open two years, approximately.

Q. So is it your testimony, then, that you've only

18 been in Mexico --

19

20

A.

Q.

Five years, short five years.

At Hospital Santa Monica, have your treatments

21 placed any patients into remission?

22 A. Yes. We believe so. But that's an unfair answer

23 to a question. The presumption is that the treatment outlined

24 in the book, Holistic Cancer Therapies, is the only treatment

25 given to patients at Hospital Santa Monica. That is an


ill>.

76

1 incorrect assumption or presumption. There are other therapies

2 that are considered to be orthodox that are also used at the

3 hospital.

4

5

6

7

8

Q. I believe that misstates the question, but the real

point is the therapies described in the book, have they been

tested and found to be effective at Hospital Santa Monica?

A. We do not do research to test a given product at

Hospital Santa Monica, we use research that is published in

9 world-wide literature and accept the conclusions that are given

10 there in the application of the therapy that is used there.

11

12

Q.

A.

So is your answer no?

No patient will receive only one given therapy, so

13 it is very difficult, as we have always stated, to blame or give

14 credit to any single form of therapy for remission of a

15 patient's condition.

16

17

18

Q. So your answer is no.

MR. MORRIS: No, that's not his answer at all.

MR. BOTTS: My question was whether he had established at

19 Hospital Santa Monica that the therapies in the book were

20 effective.

21

22

23

MR. MORRIS: And it can't be answered, he doesn't know.

MR. BOTTS: What he's saying is that he's never tested

any of the therapies any of those purely at Hospital Santa

24 Monica and made that determination.

25 BY MR. BOTTS:


77

Is that a correct assessment of your answer? 1

2

Q.

A. If the question is, do we do single product testing

3 on terminal patients, the answer is no.

Q. That wasn't exactly the question, but I think 4

5 you're coming closer. You've referred me to the book as

6 containing 20 some cancer treatments. My question to you is

7 that at Hospital Santa Monica where you treat cancer patients,

8 have you determined that any those 20 some therapies are

9 effective? And you have testified that you don't use them alone

10 and my assessment of your answer is that no, you've not

11 determined that those are effective. That those specific

12 therapies.

13 A. But they have been determined effective by other

14 reputable bodies in the world literature.

15 Q. I think all in all that answers my question.

16 You've written a book on candida albicans; is that

.1 7 correct?

18

19

A.

Q.

Correct.

Is there a Dr. Donsbach product associated with the

20 treatment of candida?

21

22

A.

Q.

23 for candida?

24

25

A.

Q.

No, sir.

Is Dr. Donsbach's Superoxy Plus sold as a treatment

No, sir.

You have a book on the subject of chelation. By


78

1 what experience or training are you an authority on chelation to

2 write a book?

3 A. I wrote a book not on chelation, sir. I wrote a

4 book on oral chelation. There is quite a difference.

5 Q. As it was advertised I saw the book advertised as

6 chelation.

7 A. The research work that was done on that particular

8 subject was carried out at three clinics on which patients were

9 placed upon a specific regimen and vascular parameters were

10 checked at specific intervals.

11 Q. That wasn't really my question. Did you write the

12 book, the text of the book?

13

14

A.

Q.

Yes.

Did you do the experimentation or the research

15 that's described in the book?

16

17

18

A.

Q.

A.

It was more or less under my supervision, yes.

Where did that occur?

At three clinics. One in Long Beach, one in

19 Huntington Beach and one in Monrovia.

20

21

22

Q.

A.

Q.

When was that?

In approximately 1982 or 3.

Is there a Dr. Donsbach product associated with

23 oral chelation?

24

25

A.

Q.

No, sir.

What is Dr. Donsbach's Ora-Flow?


1 A. Dr. Donsbach's Ora-Flow is a broad spectrum

2 multi-vitamin, mineral, amino acid complex that

3 Q.

4 chelation?

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

used

A.

in the

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Q.

Was it designed for use in connection with oral

It was designed as one of the products that was

study.

Was it marketed commercially?

It's sold.

It is presently being sold?

Yes.

Commercially?

Let me ask you about another product,

79

13 Dr. Donsbach's Ora-Chel, C-h-e-1. Is that product developed to

14 be used in association with oral chelation?

15

16

17

18

19

20

A.

name, sir.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

That product is not sold any longer under that

What name is it sold under?

Well, that formulation just isn't sold anymore.

Was there a product that replaced it?

Ora-Flow more or less replaced it. It is an

21 advanced formula of the Ora-Chel. Has several changes in it.

22 Q. Was Ora-Chel the cause of a federal prosecution for

23 its sale and use?

24

25

A.

Q.

Against me?

Against you or one of your companies?


1

2

3

4

5

6

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

No, sir.

Against a company that sold it?

No, sir.

Who sold Ora-Chel?

HRG did.

80

Did the FDA or the postal authority bring an action

7 against that company?

8

9

A.

Q.

No, sir.

Was an action ever brought against you for any of

10 your chelation products?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Not that I'm aware of, sir.

Against any of your companies?

No, sir.

Or company that sold them?

No. We had a warning letter from the FDA on

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

Ora-Chel, that was all.

Q.

18 that correct?

19

20

21

22

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

You have a book on the subject of cholesterol; is

I don't think that book's in print anymore.

Did you at one time?

Sure.

Did you describe a treatment, effective treatment,

23 for cholesterol?

24 A. No. That book I believe was more of an expose of

25 what I consider an incorrect cholesterol mania that has pervaded


j !

l

20

81

1 this country for some years.

2 Q. Is there a Dr. Donsbach's product associated with

3 cholesterol?

A. 4 No, sir.

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

Q. What is Dr. Donsbach's C-Clear? Cap C, dash,

Clear.

A. I believe that's a that's a multi-vitamin.

Q. What there's a Dr. Donsbach book on the subject of

common drugs?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. There is also a Dr. Donsbach's book on DLPA.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What does that stand for?

A. Dlphenylalanine. It's an amino acid,

D-l-p-h-e-n-y-1-a-l-a-n-i-n-e.

Q. There is a Dr. Donsbach book on the subject of

diabetes?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. By what education or training did you write a book

20 on diabetes?

21 A. For your information, both chiropractic and

22 naturopathic students are trained quite well on the management

23 of diabetes. They -- at least when I went to school. That plus

24 the practical experience of being in practice and a review of

25 literature led me to write the book.


1

85

1 Environmental Mental Protection Agency. What does EPA stand

2 for?

3 A. Eicopentanoic acid, e-i-c-o-p-e-n-t-a-n-o-i-c,

4 acid.

5 Q. What is the purpose of that product, EPA? What is

6 its therapeutic uses, if any?

A. Well, I believe the literature is quite clear on 7

8

9

its anticoagulant, anti-inflammatory properties.

10

11

Q.

A.

Q.

12 have you not?

13 A.

14 sir.

15 Q.

Is there a Dr. Donsbach's brand of EPA?

Again, I don't know.

You have written a book on the subject of exercise,

I don't think that's been in print for ten years,

It is currently being sold and advertised.

16 You've written a book on the subject of -- the

17 title of Get Well and stay Well; is that correct?

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Yeah.

You have written a book on the subject of ginseng?

Yes, sir.

Is there a Dr. Donsbach's brand of ginseng?

I don't know.

You have written a book on the subject of glandular

extracts; is that correct?

A. Yes.


1 Q.

2 extracts?

3

4

5

6

7

8

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Is there a Dr. Donsbach's brand of glandular

Yes, sir.

Dr. Donsbach's Male Glandular?

Yes, I believe there is.

And Dr. Donsbach's Female Glandular?

Yes, sir.

You have written a book under the title of

86

9 Dr. Donsbach Tells You, et cetera, Good News For Smokers; is

10 that correct?

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

That book is no longer being published.

It is still being advertised and sold.

That was also with the help of two other authors.

How much of that book did you write?

Probably 25 percent.

You have a book on heart disease?

I don't think that's in print anymore.

You have a book on -- appears you have two books on

19 herbs; is that correct? Dr. Donsbach tells you Herbs I and

20 Herbs II.

21 A.

22 ago into one.

23

24

25

Q.

that correct?

A.

I think they were combined about five or six years

You have a book on the subject of homeopathy; is

Yes.


87

1 Q. You have a book on the subject of hydrogen

2 peroxide; is that correct?

Yes, sir. 3

4

A.

Q. Is there a Dr. Donsbach's product associated with

5 hydrogen peroxide?

6

7

8

9

10

A.

Q.

peroxide?

A.

Q.

No, sir.

Does Dr. Donsbach's Superoxy Plus contain hydrogen

Yes, sir.

Does Dr. Donsbach's Superoxy Tooth Gel contain

11 hydrogen peroxide?

12

13

A.

Q.

14 peroxide?

15

16

A.

Q.

17 peroxide?

18

19

20

21

22

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Yes.

Does Dr. Donsbach's Pain Gel contain hydrogen

Yes.

Are there any other products that contain hydrogen

Mouth wash.

Dr. Donsbach's Mouth Wash. Any others?

There's a nasal spray.

Dr. Donsbach's Nasal Spray?

I'm not sure that Lou markets that. I don't know.

23 And he may not even market the mouth wash.

24 Q. Would that be Dr. Donsbach's Resp Formula,

25 respiratory formula?


1

2

MR. MORRIS: You need to say "yes" or "no."

THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, no. I apologize, sir.

3 BY MR. BOTTS:

Q. There's a Dr. Donsbach's books on the subject of

hypertension; is that correct?

Yes.

And a book on the subject of hypoglycemia?

Yes.

88

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Dr. Donsbach book on the subject of hysterectomies.

Yes.

A.

Q.

A.

21 though, sir.

Dr. Donsbach book on the subject of indigestion.

Yes.

A book on the subject of ions.

Negative ions.

A book on the subject of menopause.

Yes.

A book on the subject of mental alertness.

It's no longer being published.

A book on the subject of minerals.

Yes. I think that was combined with vitamins,

22 Q. Is there a Dr. Donsbach products relating to

23 minerals? Specifically the Dr. Donsbach's Chelated

24 Multi-Mineral Complex?

25 A. Sure. Or there used to be.


, . .,_

1

2 f'I\

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

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14

15

."ii\ 16

17

18

19

20

-~ 21

22 2

23

24

25

89

Q.

A.

Q.

A book by you on the subject of multiple sclerosis?

Yes, sir.

By what training or experience did you write a book

on the subject of multiple sclerosis?

A. My background of two degrees as a chiropractor and

naturopathic physician and a review of world-wide literature on

the subject.

Q. And in your opinion now, is there an effective

treatment or therapy for multiple sclerosis?

A. In my opinion, there is new and effective therapy

for multiple sclerosis.

Q. Is that currently being offered at Hospital Santa

Monica?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. What is that therapy? If you can describe it

briefly.

A. It is impossible to describe briefly, because it

comprises ten different modalities and products.

Q. Is it written up anywhere?

A. Therapy is outlined in the booklet called Multiple

Sclerosis.

Q. And is the outline in the booklet an accurate

description of the therapy given at Hospital Santa Monica?

A. The outline is an accurate description of the

guidelines for that therapy. You can't treat people like you


90

1 would paint a room. Each individual will require more or less

2 of any part of the therapeutic protocol.

3 Q. Have any of your clinical trials or research on the

4 subject of multiple sclerosis been reported in any of the

5

6

medical literature other than the Dr. Donsbach book?

A. No. I would qualify that by saying that the

7 protocols that we used are a composite of a lot of things that

8 have been printed in the medical literature.

9 Q.

10 overweight.

11

12

13

14

15

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

16 personal --

·17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Q.

You have a Dr. Donsbach book on the subject of

Yes, sir.

Book on the subject of pregnancy; is that correct?

Yes. I have no personal experience on that.

Did someone else write that book?

No. I was trying to be facetious. I did not have

You have never been pregnant.

No, sir.

That you'll admit.

The subject of PMS.

Yes, sir.

You have written about on the subject of prostate?

Yes.

Is there a Dr. Donsbach Prostate Formula?

Prosteez or prostate formula?


1 A.

2 not sure.

3 Q.

91

I think Lou may sell a product called Prosta, I'm

Did you have anything to do with the formulation or

4 development of that product?

5

6

A.

Q.

Yes.

What about the product, Dr. Donsbach's PMS Formula?

7 Did you assist in developing a --

8

9

10

A.

Q.

A.

I'm not aware of the product, sir.

You have a book, do you not, on sclerology.

I wrote one a long time ago, that has been out of

11 print for ten years.

Q. 12 What is sclerology?

13

14

15

sclera

body.

A.

of

Q.

Sclerology was a ancient method of observing the

the eye and relating it to various weaknesses in the

Is that also known as iridology?

A. 17 No, s·

Q. Is it related to iridology?

A. One deals with the iris of the eye, one deals with

20 the sclera of the eye.

21

22 stress?

23

24

Q.

A.

Q.

You have also written a book on the subject of

(Witness nods head.)

And I believe I asked you earlier regarding the

25 Dr. Donsbach's Stress Formula. You'll have to answer out loud.


1

2

3

4

5 not?

6

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Yeah. You did ask me.

You do have a stress book; is that correct?

Yes.

You have a book on the subject of vision, do you

Yes.

92

7

A.

Q. You have a book on the subject of vitamins and is

8 that the one that you were referring to --

9

10

11

12

13

A. I indicated that was combined I think several years

ago with minerals.

Q.

A.

Q.

Do you have a book on the subject of AIDS?

No.

Is the disease AIDS currently being treated at

14 Hospital Santa Monica?

15

16

A.

Q.

You asked that before. The answer is no.

Let me go through some other products that have

17 your name on them. Let me ask you if you're aware of those

18 products. I'll just read the name, if you're aware of it, say

19 yes; if you're not, say no. Dr. Donsbach's Ultra Energy Plus.

20

21

22

23

24

25

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

No, I don't recognize that name.

Dr. Donsbach's Prenatal Forumla?

Yes.

Dr. Donsbach's Super Acidophilus Capsules?

Yes.

Dr. Donsbach's Enzyme Plus?

ALEXANDER & SAUNAR (619} 235-0214

,~

1

2

3

4

5

6

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Yes.

Dr. Donsbach's Yummie Fiber?

Excuse me? Yummie Fiber?

Y-u-m-m-i-e.

Is that a tablet? A wafer?

It's being marketed under that name. There are

7 also wafer meals.

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Yeah, I'm familiar with that.

You are not familiar with a Yummie Fiber?

I don't think so.

Did I ask you about Enzyme Plus?

Yes.

Dr. Donsbach's Zinc Lozenges?

Yeah.

Dr. Donsbach's Ease Up, E-a-s-e, Up?

Yeah.

Dr. Donsbach's Cal-Mag-K Liquid?

Yes.

Dr. Donsbach's Aminos?

Yes.

Dr. Donsbach's Protein-Fiber Meal?

Yes.

Dr. Donsbach's Cleanse Herb?

I'm going to say I think so, yes. How is that

25 spelled, c-1-e-a-n?


93

11', 3

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

94

Q. C-1-e-a-n-s-e, H-e-r-b.

A. I don't know.

Q. Dr. Donsbach's Resp Formula, I believe we discussed

this earlier. You do not recall the product?

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

No.

Dr. Donsbach's N-D Formula?

N-D? I don't know.

Dr. Donsbach's DLPA Plus?

Yes.

Dr. Donsbach's Insomneze?

Yes.

Dr. Donsbach's MA Formula?

No.

Dr. Donsbach's Seasoning Salt?

Yes.

I'm sorry. Do you want me to go back?

No, I didn't understand the first part and then

18 when you said "salt" I knew what you said first.

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

Dr. Donsbach's Immu-Aid?

Yes.

Dr. Donsbach's B Complex Vitamins?

We had a B complex, I assume that's what it is.

Dr. Donsbach's Nutritional Energy?

No.

Dr. Donsbach's Protein Fiber Meal?


1

.r1!1\ 2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

/Ill! 18

19

20

/111!, 21

22

23

24

25

95

A. Yes.

Q. Dr. Donsbach's Amino Acids?

A. Well, you had aminos before. Are there two? I

only know of one.

Q. There was one listed as aminos and one listed as

amino acids.

A. I only know of one.

Q. And Dr. Donsbach's Superoxy Plus.

A. Yes.

Q. In various flavors?

A. Yes.

Q. Dr. Donsbach's Wafer Meal in various flavors?

A. Yes.

Q. Are there any other products that you can think of

that I have not named?

A. No.

Q. In addition to the Dr. Donsbach series books that

we talked about, did you also write a book entitled,

Dr. Donsbach's Super Health?

Health?

A. Yes.

Q. And a book entitled Dr. Donsbach's Guide to Good

A.

Q.

A.

No.

Preventative Organic Medicine?

The title of that book Preventive Organic Medicine


.~.

96

1 was in essence Passport to Good Health. I think when it went to

2 paper back it was changed to preventive whatever.

3

4

5

6

7

8

Q.

A.

Organic medicine.

Yeah. But there was two books, a book Passport to

Good Health and Super Health. Passport to Good Health went to

paper back and I think the title was changed at that time to

Preventive Organic Medicine.

Q. And you do not recall a Dr. Donsbach's Guide to

9 Good Health?

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

A. Oh, I recall it. It was never published, sir.

(Recess taken.)

MR. BOTTS: We are back on the record.

BY MR. BOTTS:

Q. What I propose to do is to just run through some

diagnostic methods and tests and ask you if you use them at

Hospital Santa Monica. Do you do treatments at the Aqua

·17 Caliente?

18

19

A.

Q.

There are no patients at Aqua Caliente.

Then what I'd ask you to do is just identify if you

20 use them in Hospital Santa Monica or in Poland or both.

21 MR. MORRIS: Subject to the same continuing relevancy

22 objection.

23 THE WITNESS: What if I don't know?

24 BY MR. BOTTS:

25 Q. If you don't know, say you don't know.


97

1 A. I mean, you know, I'm there part time, but I don't

2 know what all the doctors are going -- but go ahead.

3 Q. If you don't know, state that you don't know. If

4 it's both, then state both, if it's one or the other, identify

5 them. An amalgameter.

6 A. No. No.

7 Q. Astrology?

('Ii 8 A. No.

9 Q. Biorhythm charts?

10 A. No. Should have told me --,-111,

11 Q. Dark field cell analysis?

12 A. No.

,-"', 13 Q. Blood crystalization?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Cytotoxic testing?

,'1111 16 A. No.

17 Q. Hair analysis?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Iridology?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Live cell analysis? ,,. 22 A. No.

23 Q. Applied kinesiology?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Neurocalometer?


1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Q.

No.

Radionics?

No.

Reflexology?

Yes.

At both clinics?

I don't know.

Which which one do you know?

Hospital Santa Monica.

Sclerology?

No.

Thermography?

No.

A Tofness device?

No.

What tests and diagnostic methods do you use at

98

17 Hospital Santa Monica in addition to those that you identified?

18

19

A. I would like to qualify my answer, yes, now that I

think about it to the term reflexology. If he is implying with

20 the question that that is a diagnostic test, absolutely no. The

21 answer is no.

22

23

24

25

Q.

A.

Q.

A.

Do you use it in relation to therapy?

It is used only as a form of massage.

Are there tests that I didn't list that you do use?

Hospital Santa Monica is a fully licensed,


111>, 4

1 qualified class A hospital in the country of Mexico that uses

all of the known medical diagnostic workups that any other

hospital would do.

99

2

3

4

5

6

7

Q. Is Hospital Santa Monica legally permitted to treat

Mexican nationals?

A.

Q.

Hospital Santa Monica, yes.

Are other cancer clinics in the Tijuana and

8 Rosarita area not permitted to treat Mexican nationals?

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

A. I don't know.

Q. None to your knowledge?

MR. MORRIS: He said he doesn't know.

THE WITNESS: I didn't say that. Yeah, I don't know.

MR. BOTTS: Let's go off the record for a second.

(Discussion, off the record.)

MR. BOTTS: We are back on the record. The witness and

16 counsel have discussed how to get the deposition out. My

17 understanding is that Marc is going to do his best to get it out

18 on Friday so --

19

20

21

MR. MORRIS: Monday.

MR. BOTTS: Or Monday so that Mr. Morris and I can

receive a copy on Tuesday and arrangements have been made for

22 Hal Card or Mr. Donsbach to come and pick up either late on

23 Monday or Tuesday so that they'll have a copy to review so the

24 signature will not be required. It will be a certified original

25 to me and Mr. Morris and I have entered into a stipulation that


100

1 if the witnesses want to make corrections after that time, I'll

2 accept those with with no problem.

3 MR. MORRIS: That's correct and the only other thing I'd

4 point out to the court reporter with respect to this deposition

5 and Mr. Card's of yesterday is that the federal judge has

6 ordered that any information obtained through the discovery

7 process in this case is not to be disclosed to any other

8 individuals and this is subject to -- the only exception is that

9 Mr. Botts is entitled to use the information that he's obtained

10 through this case to prepare for this trial, so I would just

11 point that out to the court reporter. So if there is a request

12 that this information be sent to anyone else other than an

13 attorney in this action or one of the witnesses, that the court

14 reporter ought to be on notice that that's in violation of the

15 court order.

16 MR. BOTTS: Of course the time may come that a month from

17 now I may be introducing it in trial and it becomes public

18 record anyway, so there's no court seal on this deposition.

19 MR. MORRIS: But you understand my point right now.

20

21

MR. BOTTS: Certainly.

MR. MORRIS: Right now it's in violation of the court

22 order to be divulged to anyone other than you and me as far as

23 the court reporter is concerned.

24 MR. BOTTS: I don't think we need to warn Marc any

25 further, I trust him. My only point is it's not sealed. It's


,1/lll

1

2

3

4

~ 5

6

7

/11' 8

9

10 ,"11!11

11

12

13

14 5

15

16

17

18 ~

19

20

21 ~

22

23

~ 24

25

only to be used as in proper preparation for discovery and

MR. MORRIS: I think we're in agreement.

101

MR. BOTTS: I have no further questions at this time.

(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the deposition was concluded.)

I declare under penalty of perjury that the

foregoing is true and correct; that I have read my deposition

and have made the necessary corrections, additions or changes to

my answers that I deem necessary.

Executed on this --- day of ----------' 1989.

Kurt w. Donsbach


1

2

3

4

5

STATE OF CALIFORNIA,

COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO.

ss.

6 I, Marc Volz, a Certified Shorthand Reporter

102

7 in the State of California, do hereby certify that the witness

8 in the foregoing deposition was by me first duly sworn to

9 testify to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth

10 in the foregoing cause; that his deposition was taken before

11 me at the time and place herein set forth; that his deposition

12 was reported by me stenographically and later transcribed into

13 typewriting under my direction, and the foregoing pages contain

14 a true and correct record of the testimony and proceedings had

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

at that time.

this/Ir/:(

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have subscribed my name

day of k//lc--: M , 1989. / v


.'ii\ •

/11\

. ~

Answers to Questions Civil No. 88-0838-CV-W-9

Kurt W. Donsbach

1. All my tax records are in storage with my CPA who is in Huntington Beach, California. He has been contacted and requested to immediately forward such infonnation directly to the court.

2. I have not written or sent any documents or received any doc:uments from any other defendant, naming, discussing or concerning Renner, Herbert, Jarvis, Barrett, Whelan, The National Council Against Health Fraud, Inc, The American Council on Science and Health, The American Medical Association including any of its divisions, The American . Dietetic Association, and/or any pharmaceutical manufacturer other than the book "The Great Medical Monopoly Wars", a copy of which is appended .

3. I have not had any communication between myself and any other person, or received any documents from any other defendant that referred to, named, discussed or concerning Renner, Herbert, J~rvis, Barrett, Whelan, The National Council Against Health Fraud, Inc, The American Council on Science and Health, The American Medical Association including any of its divisions, The American Dietetic Association, and/or any pharmaceutical manufacturer, except:

a.The book "The Great Medical Monopoly Wars" b. The Health Freedom News, the ~fficial publication of The National Health

Federation I have appended a copy of the book "The Great Medical Monopoly Wars", but do not keep file copies of "Health Freedom News" so am unable to furnish a complete set, but have furnished that which was available.

4. I have no knowledge of any contracts between myself and any other defendant in this action.

5. Appended you will find those receipts I was able to find from Health Freedom News advertisements .

. 6. Enclosed please find copies of the radio program "Lets Talk Health" of which I am (II the host.

:'11

2. Civil No. 88-0838-CV-W-9

7. I have no audio or video recordings of NHF, Cancer Control, or National Nutritional Foods Assn. in my possession.

(11\ 8. I am unclear on this request, pursuant to court direction, I believe my answer should be the same as "7", but have included the "Dr. Donsbach Audio Tapes".

9. I do not keep records of articles I have written for publication, but have requested that NHF send me a copy of each magazine since Jan. 1984, so that I may comply with your request. I anticipate that such will be in my possession within 4 or 5 days and I will immediately forward all such artic~es. FoetJJFIR/lE!? Tt) lfmRLJEY.

10. I do not publish, nor have I published to the best of my knowledge journals entitled:

a. Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine b. Life Extension Newsletter

I also do not have in my possession such journals or newsletters. Dr. Donsbach's Health Express has not been published for approximately five or more years and I have no copies in my possession. All copies of "Donsbach Report" are enclosed.

11. Prior to my bankruptcy several minor suits were filed against me for unpaid bills . . All of these were resolved in bankruptcy and I did not keep any records of them. In 1987, the U.S. Postal Service filed an action, a copy of which is enclosed.

12 Enclosed please find records of bankruptcy as requested

13. There are no documents or correspondence with Marconi, Herbalife or its products in my possession.

14. Please see attached.

The foregoing is a true and correct response to the questions directed to the best of my ability to answer. I pray leniency in time response on a few of the requests due to not receiving this document until August 19, 1989 because of being out of the country. Every attempt will e made to fully comply as soon as possible.

~

·""

·""'

,"j;•··: /:;) fY:'~.: r•~.L.L::f. ::·:~ ~-}

: . _ .. , .. · .. ~·:f /(v. Jlf-f _ _j}_o.y__J ~I-( t\ To: Members of The Executive Committee .:· :,,t"'Y 7 . , , f'i

The enclosed resignation is one of the most bitter decisions of my life. It has become very obvious to me that the intent of our president, vice chairman, and other members of the board of governors was to force the resignation of members who did not agree and replace them with ones which would agree on certain policies. When intelligent dialogue is replaced with vituperative accusations and emotional oubursts, progress will inevitably stop in any organization.

This has occurred more frequently than not in recent meetings. NHF was always a fun thing for me, as well as accomp1ishing more than any other organization. By the actions of President Salaman against me personally, including erroneous and slanderous statements which were reprinted in the Pearson/Shaw newslettei; the forcing of Dr. Douglass and Miriam Spaulding off the Board, the grossly unprofp_,-_;.;f',,~1.~ 1&1d unkurl..letters of members Trowbridge and Gordon; I find it is no ·1onger any fun to continue, snr.e past history would convince even myself that this will only become worse. ·

I have made a decision to resign, whicl1 s~1~tld ,. .,olve that problem. But . ~'-'ve a problem and it is up to you to make a decision as to how that problem will be solveL. President Salaman has a long history of making bitter enemies and maintaining such enmity for long periods of time. I will not tolerate her unbridled tongue making accusations which are unfounded and slanderous about myself or my businesses.

All I want is to be a friend of NHF, continue to work for our common goals, and not in any way interfere with the plans you may have for NHF - in other words a member of the organization and a supporter, but not a figurehead. If President Salaman will accept such an arrangement, and stop her attacks on me, there will be not one word of dissension or discord uttered by myself. If she continues, I will be forced to do what others who have been under attack in the past (Miller ) have done ~d resort to full disclosure and possible legal action. --We should all be on the same side in this battle and give one another the courtesy of opinions which may differ with our own. That should not deter us from working together in our common cause. If I hear from this executive committee that they will

r"' allow me to be a friend, that we present an amicable parting, it will relieve me of a major burden and allow all of us to continue that which we individually do best.

0000429

2.

f'il\ Under such circumstances, I will continue to advertise in Health Freedom News, take out two or three booths at each convention and remain as a speaker on the convention programs, and continue to promote NHF and its causes.· Any rumors that I am starting or intend to start a competitive organization are totally without foundation or substance. I will be inviting NHF to join the Confederation of Health Oiganizations which is a non-dues organization to promote the concept of communication between various health freedom organizations and promote unity.

If the opposite occurs, I shall be forced to cancel all support and encourage a considerable number of associates to do tl:ie same. Tnis is not blackmail, it is plain common sense. We can continue to be friends and have mutual support or we can become bitter enemies because of uncalled for comments and statements.

The ~:.::},.c.!,0n is yours;~ ~.wait it.

Sincerely yours;

Kurt W. Donsbach, DC, PhD

0000430

a.HF NATIONAL I ~~ I HEALTH ' ,. 11 FEDERATION A NONPROFIT HEALTH RIGHTS CORPORATION

Maureen Salaman President

June 19, 1989

Mr. Kurt Donsbach, D.C., Ph.D 9048 Adams Huntington Beach, CA 92646

Dear Kurt,

The entire board accepts, with regret, your resignation.

I!/

We certainly do hope that we can continue a close alliance with you as a consultant, advertiser, exhibitor and friend to the NHF members and to our mutual goals.

We appreciate, more deeply that we can possibly express in this brief correspondence, your herculean contribution to the NHF and its principles.

It will continually be in our consciences that we are building ~ upon the foundation which you have helped to lay.

May we continue to work in a spirit of mutual respect, ~steem, and assistance.

Gratefully,

tiZ~~n MKS:jks

0000428

212 WEST FOOTHILL BLVD •MONROVIA.CALIFORNIA 91016 • P.O BOX 688 • (818) 357-218i • (818) 359-8334

~ . ~: ..

~HF NATIONAL I~, HEALTH ~ 11 FEDERATION

A NONPROFIT HEALTH RIGHTS CORPORATION

MAUREEN KENNEDY SALAHAN President

June 15, 1989

Kurt W. Donsbach, DC, PhD 9048 Adams Huntington Beach, CA 92646

Dear Kurt,

I c;

.. .:.. ;.~.:,t::ry

_ ---·----------·~--.1-t1 __ _

Last week when I was in Washington, D.C. Clinton took me to the airport. The last thing he said to me was "Maureen, do you want Kurt Donsbach to resign?"

I told Clinton, as I told you in our private meeting: "Absolutely not."

As soon as I returned home, I tried to call but none of my calls were ever returned.

Clinton then sent me a copy of your resignation letter. You have dated it June 17th.

I, for one, will not accept your resignation, and I do not believe the board of governors will either.

Ku·rt, please reconsider and withdraw your letter of resignation.

I know you were upset when the board voted to limit each speaker to one speaking spot. However, I was the one who suggested you fill both the 9 AM spots, plus get extra time for fund raising.

I know you have been deeply hurt that I have not been allowed to have you on my television show. That was not my choice but

-~ the result of your conflict with Dr. Whitaker.

My television program will now start on the P.T.L. network in July and I will have no such restrictions. Therefore, I will be free to have you on. P.T.L. network is considerably larger than T.B.N. and I am being given a prime spot.

As I have just visited your clinic Kurt, I know that you will need all the help you can get filling such a large establishment.

0000426

212 WEST FOOTHILL BLVD.• MONROVIA, CALIFORNIA 91016 • P.O. BOX 688 • (8181 357-2181 • (818, 359-833-:

§ ~..,.· ". ·1. .•

,1'.lt,

It is well worth your while to try to work things out.

George Bernard Shaw said, "The test of a man or woman's breeding is how they behave in a quarrel."

MS: j ks

0000427

ill\ '

,

~HF NATIONAL I ~~ I HEALTH ' "' 11 FEDERATION

A NONPROFIT HEALTH RIGHTS CORPORATION

July 7, 1989

Mr. Kurt Donsbach, Ph.D., D.C. 323 E. San Ysidro Blvd. San Ysidro, CA 92073 Fax 1-619-428-6548

Dear Dr. Donsbach,

[· · ... . .......... 5 .. ~ .. f ... ~J_cl"--_

We are all aware of the false allegations and deviousness you and your associates have directed against our president, and in turn, the Federation.

If they do not stop immediately, we will have to reconsider your purchase of booths and your invitation to speak at the National Health Federation conventions.

Sincerely,

Dr. John Trowbridge

0000431

212 WEST FOOTHILL BLVD.• MONROVIA. CALIFORNIA 91016 •PO.BOX 688 • (8181 357-2181 • (818) 359-8334

FF"OM 0000 '89.07.J(I l':1134

°f · 'i - 1i [' ........... --· ·-················-·-·---

]1

I would like to request that a truce be called. I honestly don't know where the wires got crossed, but we were on the san1e team at one tin1e. Please let's be on the same team again, but with different roles. I have no intention of saying anything against you or the NHF, but please stop the ridiculous statements such as that Catherine Fron1povitch is on my payroll, etc. That is totally untrue, and I would think that you, of all people, would know that she isn't about to be on anyone's payroll.

The Confede.ration of Health· Oiganizations is attempting something that may be of great benefit to this whole movement - it is consuming much of my time and a considerable portion of n1en1bers of my staffs time. There is no need for anhnosity, CHO is not a lay men1bei; or even a dues paying membership organization. There is no competition, there could be much syneigism.

I plead for at least an outward appearance of tranquility.

Best regards;

KWD

0000432

''

Maureen Kenndey Salaman 368 Walsh Road Atherton, Ca. 94025

Ms Salaman

WILLIAM H. MOORE, JR. ATTORNEY AT LAW

645 Indian Street ~ Savannah, Georgia, 31401

(912) 233 • 5858

The undersigned has been retained, along with other Attorneys at Law, to take such legal action as is necessary to put a stop to your latest spate of defamation of the characters and business reputations of Dr. Kurt W. Donsbach and Mr. Hal Card. We have investigated these and have ample evidence of both verbal and written defamations on your part, uttered by you with the obvious intent and with the result of damaging the business and professional lives of both Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card, following their resignations from the National Health Federation ..

While it is not entirely clear whether these def amatory utterances by_yc~m are being made upon behalf of the National Health Federation or in your personal capacity, conceivably they are both. It is absolutely imperative, however, that they cease immediately and that you immediately retract your statement s as well as your letter to the NHF Board of Governors, and apologize publicly to Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card.

We have received several instuctions from our clients, which we are obliged to , follow, and from which we will not deviate. The first is t~ !clke legal action against you 'Y,

and Mr. Bud Curtis, by way of suing you for damages. , · 1 ·

The second is that if either you or Mr. Curtis again utter your completely unfounded and vicious lies about Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card, that for each utterance a new lawsuit is to be filed, and after the first lawsuit in each and every subsequent lawsuit the Board of Governors of the National Health Federation will be named as defendants for continuing to allow you to make these libelous, slanderous and completely untrue statements about these gentlemen. I personally feel that the Board of Governors should be defendants in the first lawsuit, however Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card, in an excess of concern for the National Health Federation have instructed us not to include the]<, •:inl of Governors in the first lawsuit, after the which National Health Federation will be b ·, l u ded in each and every lawsuit we file. We anticipate that we will be filing frequent 1: ~;ince you have a long history of being unable to control your utterances whenever s ·: 1eone does anything to incurr your ire, and from the number of such lawsuits in which you are presently a defendant, you do not seem to be able to learn from experience.

Fortunately, some of my co-counsel have had past experiences with you and your runaway mouth and poison pen, and your inability to conduct yourself with the mature

"'restraint one would expect from your mature years. Most people in their sixties have learned some restraint, apparently from what I am advised by these gentlemen your customary response to being displeased is to screech like some slatternly fishwife hurling invective and explicatives at a competitor in a dock side fishmarket rather than comport

~ yourself like a mature lady and not infrequently to do so in print. It should be borne in mind by you that your knee jerk reflex of responding to every

tum down of unwelcomed advances by you, or any other act which causes you displeasure with a litany of mendacious vituperation, verbally and in print, is not a defense to the

(I\ forthcoming lawsuits, as in civil lawsuits for defamation , compulsion is not a defense no matter how deeply rooted in personality pattern disorders and habit.

It is likewise no defense that you are frequently incapable of distinguishing between truth and fantasy, while you are in the grips of one of your maniacal diatribes

.!"ti against those who have the temerity to displease you in some fashion. When you tell lies calculated to harm others you will be compelled to answer at law and in damages on each · -and every occasion that this comes to.our attention and our clients are the targets and victims of this vicious proclivity on your part, and on each and every occasion the Board of Governors of the National Health Federation will be sued along with you so long as they

_,.., continue your tenure as president and refuse to muzzle you and thus tolerate this sort of misconduct on your part.

Knowing something of your history of knee jerk campaigns of libel, slander and character assassination whenever you feel thwarted or threatened, I am sure that the

,., following demand for you to cease and desist will avail us nothing, nevertheless the law requires us to give you an opportunity to recant the lies you have been uttering and publishing about Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card and accordingly, in compliance with that requirement of law I now, upon behalf of my clients demand that you immediately cease

.~ and desist from uttering untrue libelous, slanderous and def amatory allegations that Dr. Donsbach or Mr. Card have stolen monies or stolen some foundations which belong to the · National Health Federation, and that you immediately write a letter to Dr. Donsbach and to Mr. Card recanting these allegations, admitting that they are untrue and were uttered

.,.., and published by you in a fit of pique or anger, and apologize to these two gentlemen for having sought to defame them and injure their reputation together with your solemn promise not to again so misconduct yourself. This piust be in writing, and bear your notarized signature and be in hand in no less than ten days from your receipt of this demand. \ J - / '

(fl, , I .J \ :., . i -~. .,

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Failing this, I sincerely promise you that you and Mr. Curtis will immediately be sued for defamation, and there will be no opportunity for that suit to be settled. H you again make such unfounded and vicious allegations to any person, you, Mr. Curtis and each member of the Board of Governors of the National Health Federation will again be sued, jn a different court, and each utterance or mouthing of these lies by you will result in a separate and distinct lawsuit, in a differing jurisdiction, and in each lawsuit we will entertain no offer of compromise or settlement, and we are committed to continue this litigation against you witil the pain of spending over half of your life in attorneys offices, deposition rooms and court rooms and paying damages lead you to grow up enough to cease your shrewish behavior and conduct yourself like a grown up, which you at the ripe age of sixty one should have learned to do several years ago. · ·

I would caution you not to depend on the gentlemanly forebearance which many of the victims of your uncontrolled and vicious misbehavior have shown you in the past and to realize that not only my clients but most of the people who are involved in the health movement have finally reached the end of their capacity for forebearance, just as your continued childish behavior has brought both your own and the National Health Federations reputation~ to a very low ebb in that movement.

People who you have maligned by mouth and pen in the past are now prepared to cooperate with us in this lawsuit, and to testify about the numerous instances of psychopathic misbehavior you have exhibited in the past. While many of these people realize that your misconduct is the result of an ego defense mechanism, known technically as projection, in which the malefactor loudly· and publicly accuses others of misconduct in which he or she has engaged, their patience with your personality problems is exhausted and again such personality pattern deviations are not a defense to civil suits for damages.

H you and the Board of Governors of the National Health Federation take some perverse pleasure in being sued repeatedly and frequently, you may, of course, indulge yourselves to the extent of your energies and financial resources by merely continuing your present incredible course of fishwife like shrewishness and continue to publish these lies against my clients; we will be happy to indulge your taste for endless litigation.

You may govern yourself accordingly.

I -· ,) ·,

,J~' , ) . I -- \

L , , t ..l.h:-dJ'.1114.-.,. -{1 · William H. Moore, Jr. Of Counsel for

, Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card j I • ( )

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/41,,

Distribution:

Arnold Susser, M.D , Judith Todero · John Trowbridge, M.D. Joel Wallach B.S, N.D.

1" Jonathan Wright, M.D. Dorothy Hart · Ray Evers, M.D. Victor Earl Irons ·

~ Bernard Jenson, D.C. Dale Alexander 1

Joe Bassett Al Battista

·"" Douglas W. Brodie, M.D. · Chuck Broes · Kirkpatrick Dilling, Esq. Alex Duarte,O.D.,Ph.D. · Charlie Fox

./illl,

Michael Gerber,M.D. Garry Gordon,M.D., Walter Grotz Jim Jenks Dale Lee Larry Lindwall · Steuart McBimie, D.D.,Ph.D., Andrew McNaughton · Jack Ritchason,N.D., · Osmon Rohn, D.C.,Ph.D .. Ruby Scherer Miriam Spaulding ·

~

Marie Steinmeyer, D.Sc , ~ Michael Evers, Esq. , Lorraine Rosenthal ., Michael Culbert, D .Sc. Martha Andrews : , Linda Wick ' Roy Kupsinel,MD :;

,,

. ·' ,.

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Catherine Frompovich, Ph.D. P.J. Lisa Miller,Boyko & B~ll . Carole Bradford t .. Robert Bradford,D. Sc. ~

•

Aoy Morrow Bell Leah E. Cllllon Maureen H. Edwards Gary D. Garcta van E. Haynie Thomas T. Lord Alejandro Matuk Donald w. Mcvay Fletcher W. PaddlSon Raymond Pepper van A. Tengberg James T. Waring

Maureen K. Salaman 368 Walsh Road

A PROFESSIONAL CORPORATION

550 WEST "B" STREET. SUITE 400 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA Q2101-35QQ

(619) 235-4040

August 17, 1989

· f..r.~:'.:-:; ;,:,_[5___, .:or i~.: ..

Atherton, California 94025 ~::: .LY d_ Qo NS k" t l-

'7 - 0-Y) Dear Ms. Salaman: Da~e •.• ------

R Lowell MIiier (190-4-1983)

Of Counsel Edgar Paul Boyko

Teny D Harper

FAX No. 619-231-8796

This law firm has been retained as legal counsel for Dr. Kurt DQI1S.bach and Mr. Hal Card, in connection with the matters described in this letter.

Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card are informed and believe that you have been and continue to be engaged in a course of conduct amounting to the publication of various oral and written statements about Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card that are personally and professionally defamatory to Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card.

For example, Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card are informed and believe that you are publishing oral and written statements through the National Health Federation and other means, to the effect that Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card (a) have misappropriated millions of dollars from the National Health Federation or some related yet unidentified trust or other foundation, (b) have "s1iQlen" a foundation belonging to the National Heal th Federation, (c) have "stolen" certain equipment, vehicles and other assets from the Na€ional Health Federation, and-(d) have generally engaged in activities constituting criminal conduct.

You are hereby notified that your defamatory statements are completely untrue, and are causing significant harm to the personal and professional reputations, and to the business interests, of Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card.

Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card hereby demand that you immediately and forever in the future cease to make....an~ oral or written defamatory statements about Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card, including without limitation, statements of the type described in this letter.

Furthermore, Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card hereby demand that you deliver to the undersigned, not later than Friday, Au9u■t a5, i,a,, a w~itten ■tat•m•nt <•> w1~h4raw1ng all et your

re.

Maureen K. Salaman Page 2 August 17, 1989

oral and written defamatory statements about Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card, including wilhout limitation, the statements described in this letter, (b) statinqaffirmatively that, to your best knowledge and belief, neither Dr. Donsbach nor Mr. card have been or are _!low involved in any wrongdoing with respect to the NationaFHealth Fed~ation, any o,ther foundation or non-profit organization, or any business venture Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card have been or are currently engaged in, and (c) formally apologizing to Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card for your wrongful conduct in publishing oral and written defamatory statements about them.

Please be assured that Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card take this matter very seriously. In the event you do not comply with the demands described in this letter, Dr. Donsbach and Mr. Card will vigorously pursue every legal remedy they may have against you for defamation of their personal, professional and business reputations, for intentional infliction of emotional distress, for intentional interference with their business interests, and for any other damages incurred by them as a result of your wrongful actions.

We look forward to receiving your written statement.

VEH:bab cc: Dr. Donsbach

Mr. Card

Very truly yours,

William H. Moore, Jr., Esq. Maureen H. Edwards, Esq.

12SXD

~,,.-: , International Institute "O . , ' , '? ~!T~~!~~~~S~!~N~~~~A~!~~!~R~

TELEPHONE: (714) 960·4331

0000434

./ii\ •

Nov. 6, 1985 Dear Student; Two and one-half months ago, the state of New York filed suit against Donsbach University charging we were doing business in the state of New York without authority and were violating the prohibition on adv~rtising a college degree in New York by a school unapproved by the New York ~tate Dept. of Education. We hired a well recommended attorney in New York to answer these charges. You will find a summary of his fees todate enclosed. We were probably just as surprised as you will be when you read it, but the case had to be answered and we feel that there is an extremely high percentage of chance that we will win hands down. But at what a cost! The enclosed bill for services is just for the filing of a motion to dismiss on the grounds •••• "it is clear that there is no legal foundation for the Attorney General's charges and that the petition should be dismissed"; in the words of our attorneys answer. Let me give a few more excerpts from the brief filed in court:

33. The remedies demanded by the Attorney General in this proceeding are plainly unconstitutional, not warranted by the facts, and unjust. The proceeding itself is simply an attempt by the Attorney General to harass what his office perceives to be a sham educational institution. Without first taking time to check his facts, the Attorney General has set himself up as judge, jury and executioner over an institution that has a clear right to exist and to compete in the educational marketplace.

35. There is reason to believe that the Attorney General's proceeding against Donsbach University has, in part, been influenced by the opinion of zealots within the medical profession who may be described as self-appointed, professional "quack hunters".

37. The Attorney General's lack of good faith in this matter is evidenced by the letters included in Exhibit 3 to the petition. They show that his investigation of Donsbach University was in progress at least as early as Dec. 10, 1984. The petition in this matter 1s dated July 22, l9d5, and the initial return date was set for August 29th, 1985. At no time bet~een Dec. 10, 1984 and July 22, 1~85 did anyone from the Attorney General's office contact Kurt w. Donsbach, or any other responsible official at Donsbach University, to determine the true facts ~bout Donsbach University's operations or program of study.

3b. New .~or~ law requires that the Attorney General give at least five days notice to a potential respondent to show in writing why proceedings should not be instituted. The Attorney General did not comply and nis failure to give Donsbach University an opportunity to fend off this prosecution shows a lack of good faith in exercising prosecutorial discretion and demonstrates only a desire to prosecute for prosecution's sak~.

3~. Indeed, Assistant Attorney General Rossen has admitted to me that she felt no obligation to determine whether Donsbach University is operating a legitimate educational institution. In addition, with remarkable candor, she further admitted that it was the hope of the Attorney General's office that this prosecution would put Donsbach University out of business.

41. Oonsbach University has suffered the loss of untold thousands of dollars in tuition••• reault of the Attorney General's thoughtless prosecution. ·.,•~• '!_c.tlon -of blJt office in bringing this proceeding without notice .can »nl. .JM.d:h , .... ~• 1 •• .

. - ··• .... •-;.

is not a situation where Donsbach University was acting in secrecy and the Attorney General would have been required to sacrifice some great

~ law enforcement objective by contacting the University.

. 11!11,

42. The Attorney General's commencement of this prosecution was totally without merit and purely for harassment purposes. The law is too clear on the right of out-of-sta ·:r correspondence schools to operate in interstate commerce without being subject to the regulation of each of the fifty States.

I could go on and on, but the picture should be clear. This is persecution through legal harassment at its best. The enemy has decided they must silence the strongest voice in nutritional education in the Unite□ States and probably the world. There is no question that they have hurt us - financially, not spiritually •

0000436

International Institute of Natural Health Sciences Inc. POST OFFICE BOX 5550 - HUNTINGTON BEACH, CALIFORNIA 92646 TELEPHONE: (714) 960-4331

~\

0000437

Dear Maureen;

First of all let me apologize for the stationary, I just find it

easier to work on the word processor. Secondly, I totally

understand your frustration and sincerely mean.what I said - I

believe you are the most effective president NHF has ever had,

no exceptions! Before your head gets too big, I do not

relinquish the right to disagree with you on certain issues, but

thats what intelligent people do. DO NOT EVER think that I am

ignoring you, I do the best I can to get as much done as

possible but definitely have limitations. Hint: You can always

reach me at home at 7:30 to 8:00 am if I am in town.

The following are not excuses for anything, just information

only - NOT FOR PUBLICATION YET!

1. The state attorney generals office of New York state has

filed against one of Donsbach University students for practicing

·medicine, etc, etc, etc.

2. They are also challenging the right of New York citizens to

partake of an educational cour~e by correspondence which is not

specificly approved by the Department of Education in New York.

I say unconstitutional, etc. But it is adding another expensive

legal battle for DU which is not monetarily fat at all.

3. In a separate action, they have filed charges against the

Nutrient Deficiency Test as being: (1) a medical test (2)

without basis in fact. Another completely separate issue which

I must defend with more legal expense. 0000438 4. The IRS has me up for considerable (lSOK) back taxes.

5. I have been late with my alimony payments by five days and

my ex-wifes attorney is trying to take over all my assets for

violating a very stringent settlement agreement.

6. I have a 6 million dollar law suit against me for writing

tne acne booklet which suggested 50,00U IU vitamin A.

dragged on, causing legal expense to accumulate.

It has

vn most of these tnings, I am in a no win situation, even if I

~ win, I am not in a better financial position. These are just

some of the ~ajor problems I face every day, and although I am

happier than I have ever been in my life, it does consume time

and effort just to juggle long enough to satisfy everyone.

Enclosed are the NHF brochures. Hope you like.

Remember, above is not for publication - and for your eyes

~ alone. Probably an attempt to justify, but ~aybe more

important, a chance to share with someone I trust and know will

understand.

Sincerely yours;

-----

0000439

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New Deposition of Kurt Donsbch, September 9, 1989 · 2020. 6. 22. · 1 I N D E X 2 /"II>, 3...

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