October 24 Water Well Board

7/24/2019 October 24 Water Well Board

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WATER WELL BOARD HEARING, OCTOBER 24, 2013

VINCENZO PELLINO’S COMPLAINT AGAINST DERRY WELL COMPANY

Board Members of Record:

STEVE SMITH, PUMP INSTALLER DAVE HUNT, WATER WELL CONTRACTOR MICHELLE ROBBINS, DES

RICK SCHOFIELD, DES STAFF STEVE GARSIDE, TECHNICAL DRILLER RENE PELLETIER, DES STAFF

STEVE GUERCA, PUBLIC MEMBER RICK CHORMANN, STATE GEOLOGIST ROGER SKILLINGS, WELL CONTRACTOR

*BOARD:= Water Well Board (noted for each board member speaking)*Machain = Robert Machian, Pump Installer, Derry Well Co.

*McKissick = Hugh McKissick, Water Well Contractor, Derry Well Co.

*Steve Banton, Salesman, Clearwater Artesian Wells, on behalf of Derry Well

*Pellino = Vincenzo Pellino *Toop = Audra Toop, on behalf of Vincenzo Pellino

BOARD: Ah, Pellino and Derry Well Company. Ah, just as you know, ahh, Rick ah went out and ah supervised ah his

videoing of a well ah that was drilled by Derry Well. Ah the original complaint that came thru, ah I believe and I can be

corrected but was that the ah the amount of casing that was installed in the well was ah Pellino ah was suspect about

how much casing was put in the well. Ah so that was the original complaint that came through ah there was a couple of

well completion reports that were filled out but the most important well report that was filled out that we received was

from the licensed driller that signed the report. Ah There was another report that was on the paperwork where you

can fill out paperwork on putting a report but it was filled out by a non licensed person. Um so Um Rick um I think he

has a tape recording of that ah well that was installed and ah I think we’re gonna see what went on right?

SCHOFIELD: Yes, ah and that tape is in the machine, it’s ready to go. I have it queued the bottom of the well is, I forget

the exact depth but ah the concern was 232 feet was 232 feet of casing. Ah rather long tape is about 10 minutes of the

tape that gets you down to 120 feet. There isn’t a whole lot to see there so ah Kasey and Iqueued it to 120 feet to save

time. But I also wanted to mention this to Mr. Pellino give him the opportunity um if he wants the board to see the

entire tape, then I think he should have a say ah and ah there isn’t a whole lot to see from y’know the top to 120. But

that ah I just wanted to give him y’know an opportunity to speak on that whether he wants us to see the whole thing or

just from 120 down.

SKILLINGS: Ok. Mr. Pellino do you want us to see the whole tape or are you happy with what Rick said

PELLINO: (Inaudible)the whole tape as long as you see the first one is 10 feet we can go from the 100 feet down

BOARD: Right, that’s where they stopped they went down to 120 ah and there was a lot of material suspended in the

water and it was hard to see visibility very poor. So at 120 they stopped they installed the pump above the camera and

they turned the pump on to draw water from the bottom and that provided clarity ah so that’s where we are now at this

point. They just stop the camera and they’re gonna install the pump and turn the pump on.

SKILLINGS: Anybody on the board who wants to see from the beginning?

BOARD: No.

SCHOFIELD: And ah if you want to sit here you’ll be able to see the tv screen.

SCHOFIELD: Sediment you can see is dropping down at this point and when they turn the pump on it’ll start coming back

up.

SKILLINGS: Just for ah clari to clarify what that is. That is not uncommon seen in wells ah it’s iron ah that is actually

flowing. It does look white in the picture but if you were to discharge it out into a bucket, you would see it’s more a red



BOARD: Mr. Chairman I assume the pump was removed just prior to the video tape.

SKILLINGS: Rick?

SCHOFIELD Yes it was

SCHOFIELD: Just for clarity I didn’t do supervise anything here. I was just present.

SKILLINGS: Ok

SCHOFIELD: I was just present.

SKILLINGS: You gave no direction.

SCHOFIELD: Right.

SKILLINGS: Can you help us why it’s not it it obviously the camera is going down the hole correct?

SCHOFIELD: No he’s turning the pump on.

SCHOFIELD: He just turned the pump on not the material is coming up.

BOARD: Any idea what the pumping rate was at this point?

SCHOFIELD: I don’t recall. Mr. Pellino do you remember? Was it 5 gallons per minute or something like that. I don’t know

if they said what the pumping rate was.

BOARD: Like they just pump it right up

SCHOFIELD: Going down now (inaudible)

BOARD: Bob, do you want to come up here and have a seat?

MACHAIN: (inaudible)

BOARD: Ok.

BOARD: Gray on the side is the casing?

BOARD: Mmm hmm

BOARD: He’s at about 232 (inaudible)the driveshoe

SCHOFIELD: I think John Hartley is waiting to see if it’ll clear up a little bit more. Before he goes down.

BOARD: How deep is it?

BOARD: All the way to the bottom of the well. Think it’s 250 feet. 59. 59.

BOARD: Goes back up and spends quite a bit of time at the driveshoe.

Schofield: That’s a sheeting I believe that’s a sheeting fracture 2 feet below the driveshoe at 234

PELLINO: It’s 2 feet above the bedrock

MACHAIN: (directed at Ms. Toop) dead fucking little cunt



BOARD: Turns it back on again

?? Is this a Keller camera?

BOARD: Rick does move along a little faster?

SCHOFIELD: Yeah he goes all the way to the bottom pretty quick. See where the bottom is see if there is any additional

fractures in the borehole and then he comes back up and stops briefly at this again. He wanted to give plenty of time at

this location so everyone could see what’s happening here. Um rather have more video than less. Pellino paid asubstantial amount of money to have this done. I don’t know what it was but it was substantial. Ah it shouldn’t be much

more time. But there weren’t…there were no additional fractures in the well bore all the way down to 259 **(keeping in mind

the well depth is supposed to be @ 225.) And you can see the bottom of the well 259 then it comes all the way back up again,

pauses here again then pulls it out.

SKILLINGS: Are we all set?

BOARD: Roger what is the maximum depth the camera shows?

SCHOFIELD: 259

SKILLINGS: Anybody need to see more?

BOARD: (Jesus) laugh

BOARD: oh my God (inaudible)

MACHAIN: We can use this as references.

SKILLINGS: So, just to review the original complaint which was dated on June 5, 2013 I think it’s in your packet item 2B

BOARD: Yeah

SKILLINGS: Um, that the ah to Mr. Schofield. Dear Mr. Schofield which came ah into the DES. Rick I’ll let you read that for

us please.

BOARD: Ah which one (inaudible)

SKILLINGS: The first statement, as stated to you in my email. **this is Skilling telling Schofield to not read the subject line

SCHOFIELD: As stated to you in my email to you, there appears to be too many contradicting information provided to me

by Robert Machain. Reads Letter

SKILLINGS: Would the board agree, that the original what I hear was the complaint was how much casing is really in my

well? ** what the complaint about was in the subject line. ** 1ST time Skillings addresses what the complaint is about

BOARD: Correct

BOARD: I don’t know.

BOARD: Rick (inaudible)

BOARD: It went to small claims court disputing the bill. Which was disputing the amount of casing. ** 2nd time what the complaint

is about



BOARD: There’s a lot of issues with this.

BOARD: Mr. Pellino was the original complaint or question about the amount of casing? **3rd time addressing what the complaint is

about

TOOP: That was

BOARD: Mr. Pellino Mr. Pellino

PELLINO: I was asking. I was asking about the integrity of the well. This is what my concern was. He was asking me what

did you put in the well, because I had no clue. ** FIRST ANSWER

SKILLINGS: Well was this complaint. Weren’t you questioning how much casing that put in the well? I don’t want to put

words in your mouth but what I’m.. **4TH time addressing what the complaint is about

PELLINO: He made it about the casings. ** SECOND ANSWER

BOARD: I’m sorry?

PELLINO: He made it about the casings, I just wanted to know information on the well regarding the work he did to it,

cuz nothing matched. The depth doesn’t match, the casing don’t match, the bedrock doesn’t match. ** THIRD ANSWER

SKILLINGS: In this, in this letter though, you question the casing and you say some wells in the area are about 100 feet.**5TH time addressing what the complaint is about

PELLINO: That was the only information I could go on. If I knew the well was in a non-conforming location, I would

have included it (inaudible) ** FOURTH ANSWER

BOARD: (cut’s Pellino off) Nope. Nope. I want to keep to this if you don’t mind. Originally you went to court, because

you’re questioning how much casing the driller put in the ground and you’re saying I don’t think you put in that much

and you went into court to say ok, he said/she said type of thing. Correct? **6TH time addressing what the complaint is about

PELLINO: NO. The initial was about the integrity of the well. He made it about the casings, I owed $3000 something

caings, $400 for something else. I held the check until he told me the truth about what he did to my well. This is what I

asked him. I sent him an affidavit, he wouldn’t sign it. He gave me a completion report instead. So, basically, I wanted to

know what he did to my well. Because he wasn’t forthcoming. He’s telling me over the phone I’m not putting the, says

I’m not gonna come up and (inaudible) you live too far away. So I had to (inaudible) ** FIFTH ANSWER

BOARD: That’s besides the unfortunately Mr. Pellino we’re we’re trying to stay with the complaint and the complaint by

what I read here, was I don’t I don’t think, I’m questioning how much casing you put in the well. **7TH time addressing what the

complaint is about

PELLINO: I questioned the casing to the depth, meaning every well I look at has 40% casing to the depth, this is my

concern, I said how much casing did you put in my well. ** SIXTH ANSWER ****CASING/DEPTH RATIO IS SIMILAR TO AN DRILLED OVERBURNED WELL

(GRAVEL WELL) AS APPEARS ON MAY 30, 2010 INVOICE

BOARD: Ok, Ok, does that, does that, thank you. Does that clarify some of this for you Steve?

BOARD: So was the complaint merely to confirm the length of the casing? We merely need to document how many feet

of casing there is. Period. That’s the complaint. **8TH time addressing what the complaint is about

BOARD: By the way I read this letter, and that’s what it says. Ok. **9TH time addressing what the complaint is about



BOARD: Ok

BOARD: Now, that doesn’t mean if there isn’t other problems I’m just saying.

BOARD: Yeah that’s what I’m saying that’s exactly what the complaint is. **10TH time addressing what the complaint is about

BOARD: Right.

BOARD: So, I think we all can we all agree the complaint was about the amount of casing? **11TH time addressing what the complaint is

about

BOARD: He’s raising the issue about whether the compliance for the reporting requirements (inaudible) for his well,

that’s part of it to. I mean that’s sort of the background to this is it there’s uncertainty about the actual well construction

details that he’s paying for, so not just the casing, but it also calls into question everything else . Depth to bedrock there’s

so many inconsistencies, the date reporting, there’s no authoritative record of this well construction that the state is in

possession of. I think that’s an issue here as well because of the number of discrepancies and the date the well was

completed and so on, raises uncertainty. **THIS GUY IS INTELLIGENT

BOARD: I guess I wanted clarification in terms of the complaint. Is the complaint, I want to know to know how many feet

of casing there is, or is the complaint, I want to know the number of feet of casing is the proper number of casing. Tome, those are two very different questions and I’m not sure what the question is anymore. **12TH time addressing what the complaint

is about

BOARD: Let me help you here. Do we all agree, do we all agree there’s 232 feet of casing by our video?

PELLINO: No, 230 feet.

TOOP: There’s 230 feet. The top casing is 10 feet, and then it’s 20 feet…inaudible.

PELLINO: 228 feet in the ground.

BOARD: Well, do we all agree on the video it said 232?

BOARD: Yes. Bottom of the casing 232 by the counter on the video camera.

BOARD: Correct. And just to clarify for you, there is a distance between each coupling that when each piece of pipe is

screwed together they don’t come butt together so there’s a distance between the two, so you are gonna gain 11

lenghts of casing you’re gonna gain probably 2-3 inches over 11 lengths of casing. So you will pick up some distance

there so if you take 11 times 2 inches that’s almost two feet. ** They sued for 232, not 234.

PELLINO: He could’ve explained that, but he didn’t.

TOOP: Right, the top casing from the top before the coupling is 10 feet.

PELLINO: He said it was 12. It’s a lie. That’s the bottom line.

BOARD: For the board, do we agree there is approximately 230 feet of casing 32 feet of casing?

BOARD: Agree

BOARD: Mr. Pellino, just so you know this board has no authority to make him you give you money, or you pay

money. We have no authority of that. There’s nothing here ***SEE LINE 729 & 730



TOOP: inaudible

PELLINO: The well is no good, it’s contaminated.

BOARD: Well just I want to tell you that we can

TOOP: (inaudible) hold them responsible for what they did

SKILLINGS: I want to just tell you we don’t have any authority with that, we have authority over the licensee. So now, I

have a question from one of the members what define contaminated for us.

PELLINO: Coliform bacteria

SKILLINGS: How many tests have you done?

PELLINO: One right after I ah

TOOP: Yeah, after we were requested to have it tested.

SKILLINGS: You’ve had one test done?

TOOP: Mmmhmm

SKILLINGS: And again ah wait just so just so I’m in the business I know, I have issues with coliform bacteria in wells that

we’ve drilled and sometimes coliform bacteria is a ah little problem child.

SIDE TWO

SKILLINGS: I read the test report, and it says present, that’s all it says is present. So I know the company the the the the

facility that did it they do present or present after or whatever that’s called.

BOARD: Absent

SKILLINGS: Present absent, right. And all it is it could be 1 it could be 2 it could be a very very low number. So what

happens is a lot of us guys will say well we want a number so we know if it’s high or if it’s low or too numerous to count

where is it you know in that. But all that iron bacteria that you see can hide coliform bacteria and you can’t get it it gets

stuck in there so the chlorine doesn’t take care of it. **no casing in bedrock, in a non-conforming location

PELLINO: I’ve seen other wells, they don’t look like that.

SKILLINGS: What’s that?

PELLINO: I’ve seen other wells that (inaudible)

SKILLINGS: Oh yeah, unfortunately again that’s on your land it’s on your land that’s where it is. I just want to make sure

you understand the whole world of well drilling ok and what you’re dealing with in the ground. **??? Huh?

PELLINO: I also need to address the non-conforming location.

SKILLINGS: Ok, hold on a second, I’ll get back to you, all right, hold on. So, do we have any questions about the video?

No one has any questions about what they saw on the video?

BOARD: Nope.



SKILLINGS: Dave?

BOARD: Roger, I do have a I have two questions I believe would be for Rick. One if he could explain what a sheeting

fracture is. And which actual well report are we going to be looking at.

SCHOFIELD: A sheeting fracture is generally a fracture that runs parallel to the surface of the bedrock. Ah and it is

believed to be created by compression on the bedrock surface by a lot of rock that was originally on top of that surface

many many years ago and then as that rock eroded away that weight would (inaudible) that rock and that the rock

breaks along intentional forces and a there is a weakness. So generally sheeting fractures are believed to be run parallel

to the top of the bedrock surface and they usually don’t go that deep. **this particular fracture is very close to the surface of the bedrock

CHORMANN: Yeah, sub-horizontal fractures that’s generally attributed to unloading of the rock mass. I mean this rock

could have been kilometers deep in the earth to begin with before

BOARD: So I think my basic question now would be, is that truly bedrock?

SKILLINGS: I’d I’d like for you to direct that question to Rick please.

BOARD: Mr. Chormann Mr. Chormann

CHORMANN: What we were seeing on that video?

BOARD: Yes

CHORMANN: Yeah, I would say without a doubt we were in a bedrock location. **bedrock location. Does not commit to competent bedroc

BOARD: Ok, that’s all I need

BOARD: Mr. Chairman, I’ve got a question

SKILLINGS: Yes.

BOARD: In the midst of looking at a complaint, other violations are revealed would the complainant have to file a new

complaint or do they all fall in and **REALLY??

BOARD: While we were investigating this we we honor other violations ah unfortunately, for the installer the licensee,

this is where things come about ah we would never know about what goes on so if we see violations, we have to address

them. **BUT DOESN’T ADDRESS THE ACTUAL ISSUES

BOARD: Ok, so to that note, regardless of what this complaint is about we found violations.

SKILLINGS: That’s correct.

BOARD: (We found violations (inaudible) where should I start?)

SKILLINGS: Ah, hold on, ok we want to know if anyone sees violations on that video. Dave?

BOARD: I think we should discuss stay strictly with the well construction first.

SKILLINGS: That’s correct.

BOARD: Thank you. Personally I do not see any violations. **The casing length is what was described on the report. The

sheeting fracture is bedrock. The casing is set in bedrock. The objective to drilling the well is to set the casing into



bedrock, to prevent the protrusion of clay, silts and sand from entering the well and your next objective is to find cracks

and fractures within the bedrock to obtain water. **The only number that didn’t change, which happened to be the only number they could collect money on

CHORMANN: (The casings need to be sealed into competent bedrock.)

SKILLINGS: Rick, Steve, hold on.

BOARD: Ok. Which I believe was done.

SKILLINGS: We we hear you. Ah Rick Chormann, would you agree with um Dave’s statement that you believe it was set

into bedrock?

CHORMANN: I, well I think there is room for interpretation as to whether…it’s in bedrock, whether it’s competent

bedrock or not is I think subject to some interpretation given the proximity of the drive shoe to the sheeting fracture

which is only 2 feet away, so below it. Um, whether that interval of rock, you know, where the driveshoe is is in fully

competent rock, I, you know, one one could argue I think both ways on that. What..could you know that when you

install the casing? I’m not a well driller so I don’t I don’t know, I mean putting…setting the casing the depth so close to

that fracture, do you know, you stop drilling at that point to set the casing and then then you continue drilling so, it just

happened to be 2 feet above the 1st water bearing fracture you encounter? Or do you drill beyond that and then raise

the casing to allow that water in, I’m not sure of the actual practice so. **non-committal to competent bedrock

SKILLINGS: Well, um as a driller ah I would have to say that when, just so everybody knows, when you set casing into

rock can get tough to say ok, I’m going to set casing or I’m not going to set casing. That’s competent that’s not

competent. I’m not going hit a fracture a foot, 6 inches below that problem. That gets a little bit tough when to set that

and say I’m set in the casing. Um now once you set 200 and odd feet of casing and you drilled a foot, 2 feet, 3 feet

below that and you get into a fracture and and then we’ll call it a problem slot, most likely you are not going to pull

that casing back out. Ok. Um not saying you can’t but it gets really tough um to pull that casing back up. Um so some of

the drillers will drill further to look for water to get better quality to put a seal into the well um and then pick up the

water down further or some of the drillers might cement off that spot to try to get rid of that bad seam that’s there.

Um so as far as putting in more casing or enough casing, it gets a little bit tough a little bit tough of ah deciding when todo that. Now as far as you drilling, and they’re using a roller bit and saying well is that hard, is that competent,.um it’s

it’s it’s hard all the way through um and it um it it’s really um um to know as a driller without doing a video the way we

showed it here, to say I should put more casing in, which is almost impossible, um it gets really really tough. **THIS IS A WELL

DRILLER WHO CLAIMS TO HAVE SO MUCH EXPERIENCE.

BOARD: What the video doesn’t show is the character of the rock that’s beyond the casing of what was being drilled

through to the point- **???? Bedrock reported at 220 & 225.

BOARD: Above it. Above the driveshoe.

BOARD: -I mean, you’ll never know that so…

BOARD: You’ll never know.

BOARD: …you can only assume that it was competent rock up to the point the decision was made to set the casing. I

mean clearly, there is some weakness in the rock below the driveshoe, I mean and that’s that’s the production zone. Um

there wouldn’t be water in that well pro.. or much water in that well without that sheeting fracture and it’s 20 gallons a

minute as repor… I mean it’s a fairly high yield zone and there’s no reason to reason to think that there’s a water quality

issue associated with that water. I mean that’s…a lot of wells get there water from sheeting fractures and and granites I

mean that’s that’s very much common, so.



BOARD: Yes Steve

BOARD: Ah, I need two things clarified in terms of the well dril.. the well completion reports. Ah the well that was

drilled on May 23rd shows casing into the bedrock of 7 feet and the well that was drilled on June 20th shows 12 feet, so

I think we need to know which report is correct….

TOOP: Neither.

BOARD: …and um I have seen reference in some of these documents using the term of non-conforming well. I’d likeus to confirm whether it’s a non-conforming well or not because then that makes, because as I understand the rules

these amounts of casing….

BOARD: No

BOARD: … are kind of irrelevant. If it’s a non-conforming well

BOARD: No. It’s beyond the 40 feet already. ** We602.05 (k) (1) Installing no less than 40 feet of casing into “competent bedrock” where bedrock is less than 20

feet from ground surface.

BOARD: So, so this this is indeed a conforming well? Is that accurate?

BOARD: Conforming location?

BOARD: Conforming location.

BOARD: We’re gonna get into that

BOARD: Ok, so that’s a question I need answered and which well drilling report is accurate. I think we need to know too.

SKILLINGS: Well, the acceptance of the board, the acceptance of DES is of the report that was sent in by the registered

driller who signed, one of them signed by the registered driller with his license number and the other one was ah

signed by a **non-registered driller.**so Robert Machain is a non-registered driller?

BOARD: Ok so the well was drilled on May 23 rd, and the casing is into bedrock 7 feet

SKILLINGS: Well that that, there’s a discrepancy about that as well. But what I’m saying is that we’re looking here at the

board as the one that was done by the registered driller.

BOARD: The one on the 23rd. Ok. Thank you.

SKILLINGS: But again, like the conversation that went on here, y’know, how far it’s in the rock, you can have all the

discussion you want about 7 feet, 12 feet ahhh this is gonna be ya it is, it isn’t. Y’know, cus one side is gonna say one

thing, the other side is gonna say…We’re never gonna know. Ok, so we can only see this

BOARD: Ok. Right. Right. Ok, and and so we also need to confirm if the location is a conforming location

BOARD: That’s correct.

BOARD: Ok

SKILLINGS: But I need to go back to ah the rules say that the well has to be…The casing has to be put into competent

bedrock.

BOARD: Right. Right.



BOARD: I refer back to Rick to ask him, do you believe that that is competent bedrock? Do you want me to define

competent for you, what it says here….

CHORMANN: Well, I would, I mean. I guess I would I would say that it is. I mean that would be my judgment. Based, I

mean you’re drilling your 230 feet above that, um there seems to be, there doesn’t seem to be a large amount of

fracturing right at the bottom of the driveshoe, I mean I **NON-COMMITTAL

BOARD: Can we run the tape again?

BOARD: Yea, watching something different

BOARD: Yes Steve.

BOARD: You won’t be able to tell…

CHORMANN: You’ll know the 7 feet above it if that’s solid rock or not. And that he just ran into where his driveshoe sits

happened to be a fracture zone or (broken up) and then 2 feet below the sheeting fracture.

SKILLINGS: We don’t. But he’s asked I think some are ah ah ah didn’t see, I I think some saw something different. I think

there’s a question there on whether the casing driveshoe is sitting on some solid rock from a distance, I don’t care if it’s

6 inches, or if it’s a foot. There is solid rock that it’s sitting on for some distance. Hold on Dave. Um so that what’s

CHORMANN: Well, the character I mean it’s obviously different than what we see below the sheeting fracture. So.

SKILLINGS: Yeah but we’re talking about where the casing is set. Is the casing set on what looks to be solid?

CHORMANN: Not as solid as what’s below the sheeting fracture, I don’t know if I would call it competent or not, I mean

again, the drillers I mean you have a functional operational definition of what’s competent and how you, what you sense

when you’re drilling the well to make that determination.**NON-COMMITTAL

SKILLINGS: Well that’s why I said I could read what the rules say for competent bedrock.

BOARD: That’s what we’re going by is the rules.

SKILLINGS: Right, let’s refresh. Ah, WE 101.08 states, has a definition ah, competent bedrock means bedrock, which is

structurally sound…and exhibits a minimal, minimum of fractures, joints, parting faults and chemical or physical

weathering that would degrade the structure, integrity or increase the hydraulic conductivity of the of the parent

rock. For the purpose of this rules of these rules, competent bedrock shall have the ability to sustain an open

borehole to accept the well casing, accommodate a hydraulic seal, which prevents the likelihood of ground water

from entering the well, along or underneath the casing and prevent groundwater from entering the well by way of

enhanced permeability features which such as fractures, joints and crevices**CAVITIES immediately below the casing. So

that’s what the rules state. So for the board, do you believe that this well, by the definition is in competent bedrock?

BOARD: I’d like to see the picture again.

BOARD: I’d like to see the picture.

SKILLINGS: Dave?

BOARD: Roger, would it be prudent to ask the physical equipment machine operator to try to describe to us what he

encountered, and what made him decide competent was competent…

SKILLINGS: We can do that. Yes we will



BOARD: ..in his own words.

SKILLINGS: So, let’s run can we run the tape. Can you fast forward it so…

BOARD: Yeah

BOARD: And you (inaudible) shut the lights off yuk yuk yuk

BOARD: My question is, what are we gonna learn? You’re not going to get a unanimous decision if this is in competent

bedrock, unless you get a mighty small person to push down that hole and have a look.

BOARD: That’s right, what are we looking at?

BOARD: What exactly are we looking at? Water quality is fine, got a little (inaudible) coliform, iron and manganese that’s

one of New Hampshires best kept secrets, it is what it is. So, I don’t know where the hell we’re going with this but

BOARD: inaudible.

BOARD: Inaudible

BOARD: Here we go.

BOARD: Now it’s going?

BOARD: No, you were fast forwarding

BOARD: inaudible

BOARD: Now we’re not fast forwarding.

BOARD: Slo mo

BOARD: There we go

SKILLINGS: So, while we’re waiting for Rick to get this way, to where we wanna see um maybe we can have Hugh explain

to us, his story. I believe you drilled this well?

MCKISSICK: Yeah, I happened to be on the rig that day, normally I wouldn’t be, but I was there that day. And ah

(inaudible) sand and gravel, y’know, hit it so hard, y’know, put 12-1400 lbs on a roller bit, y’know, crank a line on it so

you get (inaudible) you don’t have the advantage of camera to see, while you’re in it, but you got experience of down

pressure, (inaudible) would you like to set it with (inaudible) maybe, but you can a lot of them up there, I’ve seen a lot o

them there going 7-800 feet (inaudible) regardless of the point, when I was drilling, um we had down pressure on it,

with the roller bit, as soon as we hit competent rock we 12-1500 lbs of down pressure rotation was a little (inaudible), 7-

800 lbs normal drilling procedures if any of you who are drillers and run rotaries it’s normal procedure to down pressure

and roller bit. You know, you don’t, this is the first time I ever got to look at one of my wells, and I never had any issues,

but um, would you like to have something prettier, ya suppose you would but sometimes ya drill ya hit plenty of water, I

blew it clean, which is pure air it is coming up clean we were measuring it in a bucket, and figured, we hit water and

yknow that was that. I mean I mud pit I had behind the rig was flowing up because we hit so much water and (inaudible)

and water was overflowing the pit, obviously we couldn’t drill much further it was blowing out of my mud pit and, we

had plenty of water and didn’t anticipate we were (inaudible) **WHAT??



SKILLINGS: All right Hugh, thank you. I I will again, you know, I’ve been in the business now for over 40 years, and ah

drilled myself for 15 years, right in the beginning, every day and ah after that a little bit more, when we didn’t have help

come in, so like that so what Hugh says is exactly what a well driller goes through..

BOARD: That’s right

SKILLINGS: …it is exactly what he goes through Um I will ah say to everybody here that is that is the way it’s done.

BOARD: So you’re you’re using the downward pressure on the bit as an indication that I’m assuming the more pressureyou need then that’s an indication that the more competent the bedrock is?

SKILLINGS The more

BOARD: The more you can apply

SKILLINGS: Yeah, well there’s a few things that come into play. One is how much you can apply how ah how deep are

you to bedrock, cuz you got a lot of whip in the drill rod, so you gotta be careful how much you put on it, and then the

smoothness, and then the smoothness of it too. So if you get smooth ah rotation it usually means you’re in something

that’s pretty consistent. Co…Y’know, very consistent. Where as when you get it very jumpy and y’know, you’ll get into

things (inaudible) and crumbly. The other thing is that you’ll get into some caving, cuz when they are mudding along likethey are they, you don’t get all chunks to come out, so they get stuck around the bit so the bit will have to grind them

up, but once you get that smoothness going on then then then you’re you’re good. Y’know, you feel that you’re in what

we’ll call competent consistent bedrock.

BOARD: inaudible

SKILLINGS: But, is there a crack down the side is a crack here and there?

BOARD: You don’t know.

SKILLINGS: Who knows?

BOARD: And typically how long do you want to get that indication that you’re in good bedrock before you make that

decision ok let’s pull everything out, let’s set the casing and (inaudible)

SKILLINGS: Here we go, let’s look at here, so, for everybody, where’s the driveshoe?

BOARD: I see the ring.

SKILLINGS: Can you see the ring up high?

BOARD: ya ya

SKILLINGS: So what you’re looking at, there is, correct me if I’m wrong Rick, it looks like competent or it looks like

consistent rock around

BOARD: Roger can I say, This is the casing we’re looking at, right?

BOARD: inaudible

BOARD: the gray is the casing

BOARD: And the camera will be back down



BOARD: inaudible they waited so long.

BOARD: I would have to venture a guess, this is the driveshoe.

BOARD: So that’s rock we’re looking below the driveshoe.

BOARD: Yep, that’s right

BOARD: inaudible

BOARD: So Part of that is flat, part of it’s all stubbly what does that mean?

BOARD: All raggedy

SKILLINGS: Yeah, but there’s a ring about I dunno, about 3-4 inches there that we see that looks consistent right

around.

BOARD: I disagree

BOARD: That is the driveshoe…

BOARD: That ring is the driveshoe

BOARD: ….now it starts to get more consistent, but I still see cracks.

BOARD: That looks like the fracture

BOARD: And then that’s the big fracture

SKILLINGS: Back that up again Rick just real quick

BOARD: I got it I think.

BOARD: Yep

SKILLINGS: Back it up a little further, right to the driveshow

BOARD: I’ll tell you when

BOARD: I said ok

SKILLINGS: Stop

SKILLINGS: Back up a little more Rick, I mean Steve

BOARD: Bring it back more

BOARD: Back more?

SKILLINGS: I want you to come back…yea. Right there stop. So we can see the buildup on the casing. That’s what we’re

seeing is the buildup.

BOARD: Correct

BOARD: And then Right there. Stop



BOARD: Here’s the bottom of the casing, here’s the bottom of the driveshoe. As I interpret that picture.

BOARD: That’s correct

BOARD: inaudible. Keep going. K.

BOARD: Woops sorry

BOARD: Inaudible. This is where he inaudible

SKILLINGS: All right. I think we’re good. Steve. Thank you.

BOARD: The bottom of the driveshoe. Competent bedrock.

BOARD: Shut it off.

BOARD: And the next question is, do we actually have water flow underneath the casing?

BOARD: inaudible

BOARD: Can you shut it. Can you shut it off. Turn the lights on. Yes Dave.

BOARD: Roger, the book doesn’t say, the law, the rule does not say you will have a perfect symmetrical hole at the

bottom of the seal hole it’s only feet of the drive. There’s obviously no sand, silt, or intrusion or anything under that

casing. The seal is the seal. Our objective as a driller is to encounter fractures and voids that produce water for the

customer. I don’t that casing was set with any forethought or malice or disregard to the rule.

SKILLINGS: No. I would, I would I would agree with you there. There was no malice.

BOARD: So I’m not gonna I’m not gonna find any wrongdoing with the construction of the well, myself.

SKILLINGS: Ok, so Rick when you were at that site (moving to) there were observations that you’ve made, and the other

observations I believe, location?

SCHOFIELD: That’s right. The well was located 50 feet from the edge of the road, (from the front of the road) um and I

also measured, when I went out the 2nd time the distance from the well to the septic tank, which was 76 feet.

BOARD: Was the tank visible?

SCHOFIELD: Yes, there’s no cover on it, I mean no opening, no soil on top of it.

BOARD: K. and the field was further along, easy to identify.

SCHOFIELD: It was beyond that. We also looked at stake and old stake that was in the ground, Mr. Pellino pointed out.

Thought that might be the original stake that the septic system designer put in. And ah, I measured the distance from

the well to that stake, I forget what that was. And then I measured the distance from that stake to the septic tank, and

that was 56 feet. So that location, would have been also a non-conforming location cuz it was too close to the septic

tank. Ah **he knew the design plans would not have been approved, this is when the plans disappeared

BOARD: Was there any identification on that stake that said well on it?

SCHOFIELD: No, and I I talked to Mr. Pellino afterwards, he explained there is a number of stakes out there and that may

not have been the one the designer had originally (inaudible) for the well. I mean it may have been placed by the

designer, but not for the well.



SKILLINGS: So, the well location right now is how far from the septic tank?

SCHOFEIELD: 76 feet.

SKILLINGS: And the original plan was to be 50….

SCHOFIELD: There was no original plan. That we have. There was an original design, that was approved by DES, but we

don’t have that design anymore. Cuz DES records indicate that the septic system was never inspected they never got an

operational approval, so the design that was originally submitted was destroyed. They keep em for so many years, if thesystem not built they destroy it. We don’t have it. We don’t know where the original location for the well was

supposed to be. ?

SKILLINGS: So, you don’t, there is no plans here of an original location

SCHOFIELD: No.

SKILLINGS: So the location to meet the 75 feet radius, could have been made on this lot?

SCHOFIELD: It could have been, yes, the lot is big enough. Ah the the orientation of the lot, and the slope and trees

would have would have made it difficult. It would have, they would have to build a road further back, would have had

to cut trees, and built a road for access of the drilling equipment to get far enough back away from the road and away

from the septic system to meet all the 75 foot radius. **602.05 (d) RSA 485-A:30-b, ENV-Wq 1008.06 **making excuses for Derry Well

SKILLINGS: Um ok I think that um, we ah Hugh is Steve here for you, who who, oh I’m sorry I’m sorry didn’t see you

there, ah Steve ah would you address yourself to the…do you mind talking?

BANTON: Nope.

SKILLINGS: Ok Steve would you address yourself for the board?

BANTON: Yeah, my name is ah Steve Banton. Presently I work for Clearwater Artesian Well Company Incorporated. Ah

the owner of the company, Bruce (Maldridge sic) ahm, there are some places in the state that (inaudible) for other well

companies and I’ve had these customers some of them (inaudible) there are some places that that ah Clearwater will

not go whatever the reason might be, usually it’s too far to ledge or it’s too far in distance and ah I found um that ah I’ve

had a relationship with Derry Well and they were willing to take on my existing customers, and maintained them and ah

(Inaudible) ah that’s how I got involved with it, was cuz Bruce will not drill it (inaudible) **Not a licensed Well Driller, not qualified to select

location, and Vincenzo told him he was to be present.

SKILLINGS: And what involvement did you have on this particular site?

BANTON: ahh I originally I talked to the homeowner, and ah I and I went to Bruce to see if he would drill there, he said

absolutely not and so I called Hugh from Derry Well, and asked him if he’d be willing to drive there and he said yes. So

when I met the customer, I explained that to him, and ah ah he signed the contract, and I believe he gave me a check

(inaudible). **Was under the influence of drugs or alcohol at this hearing, most likely drugs

SKILLINGS: Did you locate the well?

BANTON: Well, it was a dual thing, we had where the well was supposed to go, I explained to the customer on that,

because it’s all sand, and it’s at such a downhill slope, that he’s gonna have to cut all these trees, and he’s gonna have to

build a (inaudible) and he may be able to get a rig down in there, but you’d never gonna get it out. Because it’s

(inaudible) and ah he was not willing, ah he did not want to do that because it was gonna cost him a lot of money, and I

didn’t blame him, and so he asked me where could we get a rig where we wouldn’t have to be cutting trees down and so



on and so forth. So ah y’know I asked him well where’s your leach field, as long as your 75 feet from the leach field and a

septic tank I believe as well I explained to him. Um then he could put it y’know he could put it where he want as long as

you’re 75 feet from the tank the field and off property line and ah one spot where we could (inaudible) wouldn’t have to

do anything more excavation which was on the opposite side of the house where the leach field was and ah I asked him

y’know are you about 75 feet from that direction, he say (inaudible). And ah, years ago, we used to be able to encroach

on the road ah and include that in on the 75 foot radius however those rules have changed, which is ah ah probably

(inaudible) **Not a licensed Well Driller, not qualified to select location, and Vincenzo told him he was to be present.

SKILLINGS: (inaudible) Keep to it, we understand ok did you dowse the well?

BANTON: Ya, ok So yeah, Did I dowse it? Pfff well, I don’t really remember whether I dowsed it or not, um but it’s very

possible that I cou I could have the fact of the matter is that’s that was the distance was far enough away from the from

the tank and the field where we could get a rig without doing all the excavation work. That’s correct, now I might have

dowsed it, but when it’s that far ledge dowsing that’s pretty (inaudible) There’s a lot of wash wells up that neck of the

woods (inaudible)

SKILLINGS: Any questions from the board for Steve? Thank you.

PELLINO: I’d like to submit something that he’s lying here

SKILLINGS: Well, hold on to that just tell us the facts don’t don’t make accusations about people (inaudible)

PELLINO: (inaudible)

TOOP: hold on, ah. He wrote on a Derry Well contract, he recommended an excavator, um that he writes something like

WE’VE used before, it’s his handwriting, his phone number, he did have someone there doing the excavation, he was

willing to pay the guy to do whatever he needed to do, remove the tree, it’s on here, it’s in his handwriting.

PELLINO: Doesn’t matter. He’s lying

SKILLING: Steve would you agree on this, I can show you this, but it says excavation needed to dig pit and tree behind

removed. So I’m saying you’re talking about where the well is going, correct.

BANTON: Yeah (inaudible)

SKILLINGS: Would you agree to that? That’s the way I’m reading that. I’ll see about getting someone to do excavation,

we have a local guy we’ve used in the past, I’m sorry but I read this and you know, it’s unfortunate that you’re not in

the business and sometimes us in the business (inaudible) the way we do it every day. I read this as he’s going to dig the

trench from the well to the house


SKILLING: It doesn’t say he was going to build a road out back, and down the hill

PELLINO: inaudible

TOOP: No, no no no, he did have somebody there to do the excavation, where the excavation need to be done, y’know,

we didn’t know, no body knows.

SKILLINGS: Well I’m reading what’s here, ok and this says to me



TOOP: about how he presented himself and he presented himself as a Derry Well employee, and that’s confirmation.

BANTON: May I say something? May I say something?

BOARD: Mumbling

SKILLINGS: Yes Steve?

BANTON: Ah Just just for the board, this is the 1st time I ever laid eyes on this lady, never met her before, don’t knowwho she is, so how she can speak about what I did or said is beyond

SKILLINGS: Ok. Is that true he’s..you never met him before?

TOOP: I’ve never met him, no.

BOARD: This is going to be hours of he said/she said so here’s the facts, we’ve got a well, it meets setbacks from the

leach field and septic system, (inaudible), water quality to me is fine, other than the presence or absence of

(inaudible) coliform.

BOARD: Total coliform

BOARD: E.Coli clean. No E. Coli, so looking at that well, a lot of iron, a lot of manganese if it was disinfected (inaudible)

presence of bacteria, Derry Well (inaudible) 20 gallons per minute, 230 232 feet of casing, choose your weapon, ah

looking at the initial report, they say the well was 285 feet, appears it is only 259 feet, so when they should’ve

(inaudible) from what I see, so what are we arguing about here? Where are we going? Got a well, there’s water, we got

20 gallons per minute, got casings there, some think it’s maybe competent, well we’re not sure, that’s probably true if

you put a camera in every well we drill. So where are we at? We’re going to be here forever he said/she said/ they said,

it’s a moot point to me. The issue is, personalities aside, looking at the well, is it acceptable or it isn’t, that’s the decision

here.

SKILLINGS: Ok, I’m ready to, just like Rene said, unless there’s specific questions here, I we need to have a finding here

whether this well is an approved well or not, ok.

BOARD: Roger, I’d like to make a motion the well was constructed per state regulations and it be accepted, the well

completion report be accepted, and it (inaudible), completed water well, based on our rules and regulations. And I don’t

think the complaint, I would say it’s a non-founded complaint and I don’t believe it should go to the registry.

SKILLINGS: So, can you clarify that motion (inaudible)

BOARD: I may not have put the words together, but. I would like to make a motion that the complaint be not a non-

founded complaint, the well construction meets the water well rules, and regulations, and guidelines. The well

completion report, that I believe Mr. Schofield has, be accepted as is and that the complaint does not go to the registry,

being unfounded.

SKILLINGS: Well, Rick can it not go to the registry?

SCHOFIELD: If the board finds there is no basis for the complaint, it will not go on the registry.

PELLINO: You guys don’t apply rules? Nothing? My well is a high risk.



SKILLINGS: We have a motion Is the board clear on the motion?

BOARD: Do we care if the report was a year late?

TOOP: Well, that’s another thing..

SKILLINGS: No, no**refuses to let Robert Machain’s fraudulent report be addressed

TOOP: Ya, ya

PELLINO: You didn’t address non-conforming location (inaudible) you’re not addressing anything.

SKILLINGS: No, no no we’re not going to hear it. We have a motion on the floor.

TOOP: That form, signed by Machian, was sent on July 27, 2012 60-days after the job was done, to him. 60-days. It

wasn’t technically (inaudible) a year late.

SKILLINGS: That is that is a that is a licensing problem with the licensee with the board it’s not it’s not part of the

complaint

TOOP: It was used as material evidence against him.

BOARD: That’s not part of it

SKILLINGS: It’s not part of the…this complaint on the casing and the quality of the water

PELLINO: You’re not addressing anything, you’re not addressing…The well is defective.

TOOP: Because there was no other information on the report that he mailed to him. There was nothing about the

non-conforming location there was no anything, he had nothing to go by.

BOARD: Is this (non conforming) or not?

PELLINO: Non-conforming location.

SKILLINGS: We have a motion on the table, so let’s hear the motion first. I need do I get a second (inaudible) the motion

is (inaudible). Hearing no second, then we’re going to have more discussion. Yes, Steve.

BOARD: Is this well indeed a conforming or non-conforming location. I’m still not clear of this, I know it’s 75 feet from

the septic, that’s conforming.

TOOP: It’s non conforming.

SKILLINGS: Maam, please

BOARD: But, in terms of the distance from the property lines and the street, is this under our rules a non-conforming

location or a conforming location.

SKILLINGS: Rick, would you answer that question.

SCHOFIELD: Yes, it’s a non-conforming location.



BOARD: And what are the rules in terms of casing into bedrock on a non-conforming location.

SCHOFIELD: A minimum of 40 feet of casing in the well ** We602.05 (k) (1) Installing no less than 40 feet of casing into “competent bedrock” where

bedrock is less than 20 feet from ground surface.

BOARD: Total

SCHOFIELD: N

BOARD: Total, total **SAYS THIS TO TRY TO TRICK US INTO BELEIVING THIS WELL WAS NOT AT RISK AND HAD SUFFICIENT CASING FOR THE LOCATION. ** We602.05 (k) (1)

Installing no less than 40 feet of casing into “competent bedrock” where bedrock is less than 20 feet from ground surface.

BOARD: And sealed to competent bedrock

BOARD: How far into competent bedrock does the rules say it has to be?

SCHOFIELD: 10 feet

BOARD: In a non-conforming location?

SCHOFIELD: In any well

BOARD: Ok

BOARD: And ah the well casing has to be grouted

BOARD: So you don’t have that here

BOARD: Well there’s more than 40 feet of casing ** We602.05 (k) (1) Installing no less than 40 feet of casing into “competent bedrock” where bedrock is less

than 20 feet from ground surface.

BOARD: But it’s not 10 feet into competent bedrock

BOARD: That’s based on this report it’s only 7 feet into competent bedrock

BOARD: And it’s not cemented

BOARD: It’s not grouted

BOARD: It’s not grouted?

BOARD: It would be 6 feet because you have a 1 foot stick up above the ground surface

BOARD: He indicates it was grouted

BOARD: It was mudded

BOARD: It says grouted

Board: {whispers}

All I see is (inaudible)



BOARD: I I see, I’m representing public health here, I’m not a well driller, but I see a well that’s got 6 feet into competent

bedrock in a non-conforming location, I see that as a violation of the rules, I don’t see that as..that’s not a typographical

error, if it is, shame on him

SKILLINGS: So do I have a motion on the board from anyone else as far as this well being an illegal well, that does not

meet state requirements

BOARD: I would make a motion that based on the well drilling report showing that the well was drilled on May 23rd

2012, which is the report signed with the licensee number indicates that there is that the casing is 6 feet into

competent bedrock and it needs to be at least 10 feet into competent bedrock and therefore that well violates our

rules

SKILLINGS: And location? You talked about location

BOARD: It actually doesn’t really matter then whether it’s a conforming well or not, every bedrock well according to

the rules requires 10 feet of casing into bedrock. This well only has 6

CHORMANN: Regardless of whether the bedrock is competent or not

BOARD: Whether it’s conforming or not, it only has 6 feet of casing into bedrock based on the well driller’s report.

SKILLINGS: So, your motion is maybe? I interrupted you, I’m sorry. Your motion is?

BOARD: Is to acknowledge that this well does not meet the requirements of casing into competent bedrock.

SKILLINGS: Do I have a second?

BOARD: I’ll second that

SKILLINGS: All in favor?

BOARD: Opposed

TAPE 2:

BOARD: Because um, I’ve been in this business for 25 years, and as Roger has said, it’s not terribly unusual to find,

common to find coliform bacteria in wells and they need to be disinfected, they needs to be flushed, and sometimes you

have to do that multiple times. One test doesn’t tell you that the well has a bacteria issue. But my concern is, as we sit

on this board to enforce the rules, it seems to me this well does not meet the rules and I and I don’t think our role here

is to only enforce the rules when there is a health risk as a result if the rules is the appropriate rule, than we should

expect our drillers to meet that rules. And this doesn’t meet that rule now whether or what what the consequence of

that is I think would need a discussion after a vote in terms of how we rectify it, but I guess I’m just trying to establish a

fact of whether or not as Dave said, Dave’s initial thought was this well meets all the rules, therefore there is no issue,

we’re done, I’m suggesting that this well does not meet all the rules therefore we’re not done. **WATER WAS TESTED 3 WEEKS AFTER

BEING DISINFECTED, AND 2 MONTHS AFTER BEING DISINFECTED, AS STATED TO RICK SCHOFIELD IN AN EMAIL SENT WITH THE TEST RESULTS

BOARD: Still, at the end of the day, rules are rules are rules, at the end of the day when you talk about non-conforming,

(inaudible)we’ve been around long enough to know that you’re always concerned about something short circuiting

(inaudible) situation with 232 feet of casing, probably 100 feet of overburden. (Inaudible) so the reality is is if it’s 7 or 6

feet 7 feet in competent bedrock that’s where the water is probably coming in, it’s coming under it, so at the end of the

day what was the resolution of the solution to this meeting I mean considering all the (inaudible) the yield, public health

and safety (inaudible) a rule that’s 3 feet shy (inaudible) so at the end of the day where do we go



BOARD: My suggestion is would be the well be shocked and chlorinated several times, and I think the bacteria will go

away. I don’t think this issue is related to the bacteria problem. I’m just merely trying to document whether or not this

was a violation. So, that if in 18 months there’s another complaint about a similar circumstance we have on record that

this happened, we documented it. So if we see a trend a year 2 3 years down the road that this particular company is

doing this frequently, then we have that history documented that and we can address that. But in this particular case,

based on my experience with wells and with water quality in New Hampshire, I don’t think this is the source of the

bacteria. I think there just wasn’t enough disinfection to kill the bugs because of the iron because of manganese because

of the (inaudible) in that well. .**WATER WAS TESTED 3 WEEKS AFTER BEING DISINFECTED, AND 2 MONTHS AFTER BEING DISINFECTED, AS STATED TO RICK SCHOFIELD

IN AN EMAIL SENT WITH THE TEST RESULTS

SKILLINGS: Dave?

BOARD: Well, Rick to be fair to the well drilling community and the public sector, we just had a dug well replaced,

because it was installed crooked.

BOARD: No No (inaudible)

BOARD: Let’s say, let’s say it didn’t meet our criteria, in this case and that well supposed to be decommissioned, now in

this case, we find this poor construction or whatever it may be, I would say that the well needs to be abandoned. Fill it

up with cement and grout, and fill those nice fractures right up, you’re gonna have to drill within a few feet of this well.

Best location on the lot, yes or no?

BOARD: Yes.

BOARD: Ok so now we drill relatively close to this one. But we put in 240 feet of casing, you’re going to be looking at

the same people in a month and they’re going to be saying we have an 1100 foot well that makes no water at -

all…**WELL HAD A LOCATION WHICH MET THE 75-FOOT RADIUS

BOARD: That’s why I’m not suggesting the well be abandoned

BOARD: …and depth to bedrock is very much open to opinion. Roger could say it’s 210 feet to bedrock, I could go in

with my machine

BOARD: We still need to document

BOARD: I understand, I understand, that’s why

BOARD: It’s not 10 feet of casing

BOARD: I’m trying to (inaudible) why I’m not concerned about a couple feet short of casing, in one well report they have

12 feet of casing

BOARD: That’s not a legal document. That’s not a legal document.

TOOP: that’s not what they told us in court (inaudible)

BOARD: inaudible

PELLINO: they should be arrested for this.

BOARD: Ok, for the environment and everyone involved we’re better off to leave this well alone, I see, I do not see a

violation



BOARD: I’d like to address Mr. Pellino. Mr. Pellino, shy of all of this and all of that, what’s the matter with your well?

PELLINO: It’s defective

BOARD: How’s the water quality?

PELLINO: Bad

TOOP: It’s brown, water has been brown, it’s been brown from day one


BOARD: Your driller does not typically guarantee water quality

PELLINI: (inaudible) it’s surface water

TOOP: We understand that.


BOARD: I’d like to make a point to you

TOOP: Stop, stop

BOARD: I’d like to make a point to you about what Mr. Hunt suggested. I understand that also. If the board decided, if

Derry Well decides this well is garbage fill it up with cement. What’s gonna happen to you is you’re gonna hire a well

driller to come in and install 240 feet of casing and drill you, pick a number on 1100 foot well that may not produce

water.


BOARD: If there is nothing wrong with this well, you may be better off with this than some other alternative.

TOOP: May I, may I say something.

BOARD: I’ll leave that up to the chairman.

TOOP: May I?

SKILLINGS: Let me ask you a question.

TOOP: (inaudible)

SKILLINGS: Hold on, let me ask , I want..I want to ask you a question, to Derry Well and to you. We’re spending a lot of

time, other people’s time, your time, everybody’s time. I’ll ask Hugh, and I’ll ask Mr. Pellino.

TOOP: No..(inaudible)

SKILLINGS: Ah ah ah,

TOOP: NO

SKILLINGS: I’m asking Mr. Pellino, and I’m asking Hugh, can you..

PELLINO: I tried to work it out.



SKILLINGS: Yes but you’re sitting here together, we’ve gotten to this point, can you work this out? If you’re gonna be

hostile, then you’re gonna take what the board says. So, if you’re gonna be hostile about it, you’re gonna take what

the board says. So, can you work it out? Hugh?

MCKISSICK: I can try to.

SKILLINGS: You will try? Mr. Pellino?

PELLINO: What is try? What does it involve?

SKILLINGS: I would ass assume to get you a better…a well, a better well.

BOARD: Better water quality

SKILLINGS: Better water quality

PELLINO:

SKILLINGS: But, you gotta pay him for, you gotta pay him for what he’s done so far don’t forget. But he’s gonna do

more for you

TOOP: (inaudible)

SKILLINGS: The thing is you’re thinking that it’s his fault that you have the water quality that you have. If that was

another well company that had the same identical thing that happened to him, cus let me tell you this is the world that

well companies run into. Yes, another well company would have said to you, Mr. Pellino ah maybe this water isn’t going

to be so good, we otta just cement it off and drill drill deeper. Ok. Do you hear me? So then he would have cemented it

off, and drill deeper. And you would have paid to cement it off and drilled deeper. Ok?

PELLINO: The well next door has a well 427 feet

SKILLINGS: We are talking about your well, we are talking about what you would do. So if I can’t solve between the twoof you, guess what? What the board decides here, is what you’re gonna both live with.

PELLINO: He took me to court, he withheld information from me lied to me. So how do we solve anything?

BOARD: I’d like to revise my motion.

SKILLINGS: Yes Steve.

BOARD: I’d like to revise my motion that we find that the well does not meet the requirement of the rules the amount o

casing into bedrock, however that is probably not impacting the water quality. Iron and manganese are very very

common in New Hampshire wells, it’s a business I’ve been in for over 25 years and that the water quality is not the

result of the construction of this well. I’d like to document that the well doesn’t have sufficient casings, but I don’t

believe it impacts on the water quality, I don’t recommend that we abandon this well, that this well merely needs to be

shocked and iron and manganese need to be treated like 75 % of the wells in New Hampshire have to be. And

(inaudible) but I think we need to document that the casing doesn’t meet the rules but I don’t think we recommend but

do not recommend the well be abandoned.

SKILLINGS: Would would you agree that there was excess casing in the ground for the normal consideration of ground

water getting into the casing?

BOARD: Yes



SKILLINGS: So, that coulda been a well, just for discussion, that coulda been a well that was 210 feet deep in sand and

gravel. Correct?

BOARD: Yep, yep. Same circumstances. So I do no, I do no

SKILLINGS: I do know the customer didn’t buy a sand and gravel well for 210 feet, I realize that. But, we know that the

area has wells, overburden wells.

BOARD: To me the water quality here is really is not the issue, cuz this is typical New Hampshire water. The iron andmanganese are typical New Hampshire water.

SKILLINGS: I do agree, so let’s go back to the motion

BOARD: So, my motion is that that um we acknowledge that there is not sufficient casing, uh they don’t meet the 10

foot requirement of casing into bedrock however, we do not recommend the well be abandoned, that the water quality

issues be addressed thru shocking and or treatment, as is consistent with all bedrock wells in New Hampshire.

SKILLINGS: We’re about to take a second here

PELLINO:

SKILLINGS: Ho Listen, we are about to have a second on a motion, I’m giving you one more chance between the two of

you

PELLINO: My well risk will always be at risk

SKILLINGS: Your not…I’m giving you a chance. Fine. Do I have a second on a motion?

BOARD: Second, second

SKILLINGS: All in favor?

BOARD: I

SKILLINGS: How many I’s do I have here? I have 4, I have 5. Let the record be shown that the I’s have it and the finding is

that ah that the well driller ah is not at fault, am I correct?

BOARD: In terms of the water quality.

SKILLINGS: Ah

BOARD: And if I could I would like to have an opportunity to address (inaudible)

SKILLINGS: Well, wait a minute, when you said in terms of water quality..(inaudible)

BOARD: They are still at fault in terms of not having 10 feet of casing into bedrock. I think that needs to go on the record

But I don’t consider them to be responsible for this water quality.

SKILLINGS: What about

BOARD: Maybe you didn’t understand the motion



SKILLINGS: Yeah, what about cus that the issue here is location and ah ah casings amount of casing. We determined the

casings is in the ground but the amount into bedrock because of what they wrote there on well, originally, that’s the two

things we have at issue here….

BOARD: Right, into bedrock, on the report (inaudible)

SKILLINGS: ….you’re talking about water quality

BOARD: Yeah yeah, well I’m not, my motion does not link that 6 feet of casing to the water quality. I’m merelyacknowledging the fact that there’s only 6 feet of casing into bedrock.

SKILLINGS: Ok

BOARD: I’m not associating that with having any consequence

SKILLINGS: OK, so you’re, can we make sure that (inaudible) that I says that we keep that the motion was that it’s the

water quality that we’re talking about, and that the water quality is not deterred because of the casing, am I correct?

BOARD: Yeah

SKILLINGS: but at issue here, is the casing into competent bedrock into rock….

BOARD: Competent bedrock

SKILLINGS: ..in the well location So ah how, if, what is the finding on the board with the casing into bedrock?

BOARD: That it doesn’t meet the 10 foot requirement.

SKILLINGS: Ok and

SCHOFIELD: That would be, for the record WE 602.06, depth to

SKILLINGS: And what is the finding of the well location?

SCHOFIELD: That is WE 602.05 D

SKILLINGS: Which identifies the well location to be?

SCHOFIELD: Non-conforming.

SCHOFIELD: Non-conforming WE 602.05 D requires 75 foot protective well radius from property line

SKILLINGS: And in that, the responsible party for that? To make sure the well location meets the setback

requirements?

SCHOFIELD: THE WELL DRILLER

BOARD: So the question is even if it’s non-conforming and and (inaudible) you’re looking at the 40 foot of casing

minimum, that’s considering what the surficial geology is and what’s it like, and we’re talking about a well that’s 232

feet of casing, 230 (inaudible) that’s been grouted, and we’re not sure, one report says 12 one report says 6, one

supposedly more official than the other that says a licensed driller signed it. It get’s back to time to deal with reality

here. We got a well that’s non-conforming, I think we all agree to that, we got two numbers for casing candidly I’m not

sure what’s right or, but we know who the licensed driller is. Fact is we still got 230 feet of casing we got a grouted

borehole, we got a grouted…what are we talking about here?



BOARD: Leave it it. Shock the well (inaudible) call it a day.

BOARD: The confusement is a concern. I can see why Mr. Pellino is upset. Y’know looking at 1 and a half parts of iron,

one and a half parts manganese, that’s I said earlier, that’s one of New Hampshire’s best kept secret. You know, iron and

manganese, it is what it is. This well could be 25 feet it could be conforming, if you’re (inaudible) that 20 gallon minimum

fracture. You’re gonna have the same water quality and same water quality so (inaudible)

SKILLINGS: Ok, so we need to have a motion on the floor do we find the well driller to be in violation or I need some

motion on the floor from somebody that rather the

BOARD: Are we’re gonna disregard Steve’s motion?

SKILLINGS: Well, his motion is about the water quality.

BOARD: Oh, no my motion was that indeed the well driller did violate the rules by not filing a non-conforming well

location report

SKILLINGS: Ok

BOARD: and by not putting the minimum 10 of casing into bedrock.

BOARD: (inaudible)

BOARD: Ok, so I take that back

BOARD: But the problem is…

BOARD: So, my motion was that there is not 10 feet of casing into bedrock. My motion did not say anything about what

the consequence of that violation should be, I’m merely trying to document on record that the violation occurred. So if

you want to make a motion about suggesting a consequence I’m happy to do that, with a separate motion.

BOARD: You’re the one who voted on that.

BOARD: Right, so we agreed that the violation had occurred. Now we have to decide are we going to what’s going to be

the consequence of that violation.

BOARD: Mr. Chairman, does the original motion does that address water quality as a (inaudible)

BOARD: I’m confused now

BOARD: My motion said that..that in my opi…my motion was that violation of not having (inaudible) to bedrock, does

not impact the water quality

BOARD: I would like to remove my Yay from the record, for whatever that’s worth

BOARD: I take my hat off to Steve (inaudible) confusion. I am not going to discredit the gentleman who filled out the 1st

report. I won’t call it illegal (inaudible) because he just filled it out. The man who drilled the well, does not hold the

license. It doesn’t matter.

BOARD: Yes it does.

BOARD: The first report?

BOARD: Oh



BOARD: Inaudible

BOARD: I understand, but the driller actually indicated he was into bedrock 12 feet. So the (inaudible) report was

written by somebody else.

BOARD: It’s the other way around by the licensee, it’s the other way around

BOARD: Mumbling, (whispering) this is the accepted one. And then there’s that one. There’s 3 reports, there’s one that

Derry Well (inaudible) which indicates 265 (inaudible). This one was signed by someone who’s not a licensed driller.

BOARD: He has the rig machine

BOARD: But that well driller report doesn’t count (inaudible) it wasn’t properly completed?

SKILLINGS: No no no no hold on, no siding. Hugh ran the machine, he’s the licensed driller.

BOARD: Then did Hugh write down he hit bedrock at 220?

BOARD: No. 225

BOARD: This is the report filed by Mr. McKissick. This is the official report that was submitted to the board

SKILLINGS: That is what Steve is talking about his own confession documented he’s only 6 feet into rock. That’s that’s

what we’re going on.

BOARD: So I could make a motion as he knew what was a result of that finding. So I would make a motion that the

violation of not having 10 feet of casing into the bedrock does not impact this water quality and as a result the well

should remain and the issues of water quality would be addressed by the well driller to eliminate the bacteria problem,

because I believe under the rules they are required to provide a well free of bacteria, is that correct? So, there’s no issue

of water quality. So it is my motion that that violation of not having 10 feet of casing into bedrock does not impact this

water quality, and like any other bedrock well in New Hampshire there’s responsibility of the owner to provide the

water quality they desire. Cause water quality is not regulated by rules.

SKILLINGS: You got you go you gotta clean that up.

BOARD: This violation does not impact water quality. Period. No consequence to the driller.

SKILLINGS: Ok ok does not that’s good. The short of casing does not impact…

BOARD: Water quality.

SKILLINGS:…water quality. Can I have a vote on that? Can I have a second on that? Sorry

BOARD: I will second that.

SKILLINGS: All in favor

BOARD: I

SKILLINGS: Ok.

BOARD: All opposed

BOARD: Opposed



SKILLINGS: Ok, the other issue here is well location, ok. How does the board find on well location?

BOARD: It meets the non-conforming rules, right? This well? Hmm? So I don’t understand why location is an issue.

SKILLINGS: I’m I’m… ya..anybody?

BOARD: Do we have a non-conforming form?

TOOP: No

PELLINO: No, NO NO

MACHAIN: He wouldn’t sign it, that’s why.

TOOP: You never met him, so how could he sign it?

MACHAIN: He got the bill, he said he found it on the floor, I left the form, we put that on the

PELLLINO: INAUDIBLE

MACHAIN: (inaudible) sign these things all the time, he just doesn’t want to pay for the casings, we know that all the

time. (Inaudible) all the time, I’ve been sitting here listening to this

TOOP: The last time

SKILLINGS: Wait, wait

TOOP: The last time we were here, he said he left it in the mailbox, now he’s saying he left it in the house.

MACHAIN: We left it right on the tank. (inaudible)

BOARD: Whispering.

SKILLINGS: Do they have it? Does anyone have one?

MACHAIN: Theyre not gonna sign it Roger, c’mon.

SKILLINGS: That’s right, they’re not going to sign it. That’s for me. OK. So I need a vote on the well location

BOARD: What about it

BOARD: I want to know if it..if any of the board members here have a problem with the well location?

BOARD: I would just say (inaudible) Mr. Schofield had his feet on the ground, on the lot his eyes as our..ah his eyes as

ours, Rick indicated to us that the well is in a..decent lo..ah good location, or the best location?

SCHOFIELD: I believe the well is in the best location given the dimensions of the lot, without having to build a road

further back and cut trees. I think the septic system designer probably would have put that well in that location on

the plans.

SKILLINGS: So, just for the board here, to help us decide here, the location sounds like that it’s by (inaudible) is in a good

location. It does meet the location further back from where this location further back out was, this is actually better

when it comes to it’s own septic system, correct?



SCHOFIELD: It meets all the setbacks for the septic system ahm in order to put a well, to meet all of the setback

requirements it would have been fairly substantial road to get the rig back there

SKILLINGS: And and it has excess than this 40 feet of casing we normally require in non-conforming as well, correct?

BOARD: INAUDIBLE

SKILLINGS: And the well was grouted. Ok, so I need something from the board to close this. Yay or nay.

BOARD: The way I see it Mr. Chairman, it’s a non-conforming well, it does not have the non-conforming paperwork

signed, I don’t think making this, either signing the paperwork or moving the location would have changed the well I

don’t think the well was in danger because the it’s non-conforming, the only drawback I see is when Mr. Pellino goes to

sell the house, somebody’s gonna look and go hey that well is in an illegal location. If the board decides that nothing

should be done, I think at the very least we should honor Mr. Pellino with a piece of paper saying the Water Well Board

investigated this, the well has been videotaped, the water well board sees no potential consequences, damage, harm by

the well being located in a non-conforming location.

BOARD: Well we have to close this

PELLINO: Rules are rules you know.

BOARD: Ok, we’re gonna have to close this out in writing anyway. But I mean, when I think about this, you think about

first of all probably when the septic system was designed, they probably used a (inaudible) cuz it’s done forever and eve

and ever. (inaudible) I suspect seeing the pictures, looking at the tree that’s probably what happened. Unfortunately, we

don’t know that. But what I think about pragmatically is..is what was the intent of the requirements in a non-conforming

well? Is to make sure we are in bedrock, and 6-7 feet, whatever it is, you grout it, and when Matt was around we were

always thinking about when you get into shallower bedrock situations, that was a real big concern, we’re talking about

probably more than 100 feet of overburden, probably at 150 feet. Y’know, we got a vein, there’s no salt, iron and

manganese, that’s no surprise to me, there’s no salt, so we’re not seeing a lot of ground water that’s tainted to begin

with. So in my mind I think about what’s the reality of the risks associated to the well, and I think a lot of these wells are

that deep and not even grouted, and still have the same problems. So in my mind, I think we acknowledge that it’s a

non-conforming well location but as a result of looking at the video and looking at the water test results, in addition to

grouting, that the well remain intact.

SKILLINGS: Ah Rick?

SCHOFIELD: I agree with, I agree with everything Rene just said. I just want to make a point ah and on behalf of Mr.

Pellino and Audra Toop, that the drilling contractor is required by rule to notify them before the well is drilled that the

well is in a non-conforming location, and they are required to have them sign that form so that they acknowledge that

the well is in a non-conforming location. That was never done. And I can understand why Mr. Pellino and Audra Toop are

very concerned about that, and as they should be, and I think maybe we should document that fact here, that thatwasn’t done.

BOARD: But that’s a second violation

SKILLINGS: Well, ok. Thank you Rick. Ah ah just just again for the board, we have approved wells that are within the 75

feet from a road many many many times, that is not an uncommon practice

BOARD: That’s a separate issue



SKILLINGS: Well that’s that’s we’re talking about setback requirements that’s really what we’re talking about is the 75

feet from the front lot line, right?

BOARD: Correct, from the road.

SKILLINGS: He meets the setback from the side lot line and the back lot line.

BOARD: No I understand. I think the concern is he took it into bedrock, he didn’t follow the rules there. If he stopped

above bedrock, you already had 40 feet of casing in a (inaudible) overburden well and we wouldn’t be having thisconversation. He didn’t take it 10 feet in and that’s the violation. And not having it signed ahead of time, that’s another

violation. Setback in a non-conforming well is and everyday event in New Hampshire, we see everyday, I don’t think

that’s an issue at all. I mean he, the 50 feet we’d all be ok with, (inaudible) maybe 10 feet into rock, if he took it into

rock. So I think we need to be concerned with the 7 feet vs. 6. Obviously, we’re not going to rip the well apart, because

it’s a good producing well, it has a small bacteria count in it, which is typical of any well in New Hampshire. It doesn’t

need to change. I think it needs to go on Derry Well’s record that they need a brush up on the rules, if they’re going to

do this in the future, (inaudible). So, it can’t change without costing everybody a small fortune, including the

homeowner. They can replace that well, but it’s going to cost them another small fortune. And it will be no better, he

probably won’t be getting any kind of water production he’d be getting now. With a small treatment system, you’re

going to have clean water.

PELLINO: Why should I do it? Why should I pay (inaudible)

BOARD: Everyone in New Hampshire does it.

TOOP: (Inaudible) No, no no.

BOARD: I’ve been doing it for 25 years. Yeah.

SKILLINGS: We’re going to take a vote (inaudible) or not?

BOARD: I approve it as it is. I think Derry Well, there needs to be some sort letter or something or violation on theirrecord for installing it short of 10 feet of casing, and not having a signed (inaudible). That’s a direct violation, and if that

was taking care of anytime if it was drilled 10 feet in, we wouldn’t even be this far in the conversation. The bacteria

count would be enough. There’d be no problem with this well at all.

BOARD: And the late reporting and the well completion report itself is another issue. I mean, the third item, there’s

nothing on the non-conforming.

BOARD: I mean one report was signed by the well driller an

BOARD: So just, everybody I mean we gotta hear to ourselves here, we hear ourselves we’re talking about wells, he

violated this, he violated that, violated this yet we’re gonna say OK

BOARD: No one said ok, I think it goes on their record, I mean if they have another incident like this than we address it

with their license, or a fine whatever the case may be (Dave Hunt snickering in the background)

SKILLINGS: So we’re not make Derry Well, they’re not, we’re not gonna say that Derry Well is in violation

BOARD: No, we are going to say they’re in violation….

DAVE HUNT: No no no no



BOARD: They are in violation, but replacing the well, I don’t think it needs to happen.

BOARD: Inaudible.

BOARD: No, it’s a whole different situation

BOARD: All right, we’ve acknowledged the casing issue, we’ve acknowledged the non-location form, fact of the matter is at the end

of the day It’s a rule, the board can make a decision based on rules. That’s what we’re doing, it’s not a statute. This is a rule, the

rules redevelop. We sit here, and hopefully, academically get all sides of the coin, and that’s why we sit here, to make a decision. At

the end of the day, do we believe that they are quality and quantity outside the realm of iron and manganese, which is no surprise

(inaudible) So that’s the deal here, we’re dealing with rules in a violation, not a statute. That gives the decision making at this board

level. So we figure out, we acknowledge what went on, and if we feel comfortable that the end product is what you get, what you

see is what you get, and there’s no public health risk, and and my own candid feeling is if a fracture at 232 feet if we are starting to

get contamination we better (inaudible)

BOARD: For all of our rules

BOARD: So, I mean, that’s my take on it. So we acknowledge it, it’s there, we know it’s in the rules we’ve identified 3 violations

(inaudible) and that’s what we’re saying, plain and simple. And the conclusion is, the well goes and get on with it or we look at some

other thing. We cannot continue to bat this around, it’s a rule, we have…

SKILLINGS: Can I get a motion, sorry?

BOARD: Inaudible

SCHOFIELD: Since we’re identifying all violations, I also have to speak up, there is also one other violation that I noted in my report,

which is that the ground wire was not bonded to the casing that’s required by WE 702 04 J. Although, I will say there was an attempt

to be done to make that bond, because if you look at that picture you can see that the ground wire, the insulation has been stripped

off the ground wire, I can pass that around. Ok so what they did was they draped that ground wire over the top of the well casing,

and put the cover over it to create a bond, so there was an attempt made to bond that ground wire to the casing, but it wasn’t in my

opinion does not meet the board’s requirements that would be to drill a hole thru the casing, and fasten it to the casing with a bolt

or to use the two well caps that the board has approved. Which is the turtlecap and then there’s the (inaudible) industries cap that

has a grounding (inaudible) on it for that purpose. Those are the only way of doing that that has been accepted by the board. But, ifyou’re going to identify violations, I believe this is one of them. Although attempt was made to comply with the rules, but I believe it

falls short.

SKILLINGS: Can I get a vote of whether we accept this well in place or we not accept the well.

BOARD: I would suggest, my motion would be we accept this well but we agree on a probation of some type for Derry Well for

violations that occurred on this well that don’t impact water quality, but nevertheless are violations

SKILLINGS: OK, discussion

BOARD: Is that the only repercussion that we can impose for violation of our rules, for reporting and so on? I mean, it seems to me..

BOARD: Late reports are a fine

BOARD: Are these fineable?

BOARD: Beside a censure or probationary period, can we enforce for violation of these we’ve identified 4 separate violations. We

may accept the well because I think an attempt at the rules are met here, but it doesn’t excuse them for violating our rules, so it’s

kinda two separate things, and I’d like to be clear about what our potential actions are in the latter case. If we do accept this well as

it is as a functional well, at which they had no fault for the quality issues, and I agree with that. But as far as what we can impose for

specific violations of our rules, besides the probationary..

SKILLINGS: Rick, can’t DES um DES (inaudible)



SCHOFIELD: DES has the authority over ah enforcement actions such as administrative fines, administrative order, to

correct violations

SKILLINGS: So we can direct DES

SCHOFIELD: No, you can not direct DES.

BOARD: you can refer

BOARD: Recommend.

BOARD: Ok, I would like (inaudible) as part of the motion.

BOARD: So my motion is we accept the well as drilled in spite of the 4 violations, and we recommend to DES to consider appropriate

fines regarding those violations or consider appropriate consequences regarding those 4 violations.

SKILLINGS: All in favor

BOARD: I

SKILLINGS: All opposed

BOARD: I

SKILLINGS: Ok, we’re gonna take a break please 10 minutes. 5 that enough

TOOP: thank you for your time

BOARD Phew

BOARD: I pity anybody who has to deal with her

BOARD: YUK YUK YUK

I, Audra Eileen Toop, certify under penalty of perjury that the above transcription before the NH Water Well Board,which took place on October 24, 2013 is true and correct, to the best of my knowledge.

________________ ______________Signature Dated

State of New Hampshire

County of Carroll

Signed or attested before me on ______________________ by Audra E. Toop.

_______________________ NOTARY PUBLIC

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October 24 Water Well Board

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