OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS Thursday, 18 October 2012 ... · LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 18 October...

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 18 October 2012

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OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS

Thursday, 18 October 2012

The Council continued to meet at Nine o'clock

MEMBERS PRESENT: THE PRESIDENT THE HONOURABLE JASPER TSANG YOK-SING, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALBERT HO CHUN-YAN THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG DR THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, G.B.M., G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING, J.P. THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ABRAHAM SHEK LAI-HIM, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE TOMMY CHEUNG YU-YAN, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE VINCENT FANG KANG, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-HING, M.H.

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DR THE HONOURABLE JOSEPH LEE KOK-LONG, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JEFFREY LAM KIN-FUNG, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE ANDREW LEUNG KWAN-YUEN, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE WONG TING-KWONG, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE RONNY TONG KA-WAH, S.C. THE HONOURABLE CYD HO SAU-LAN THE HONOURABLE STARRY LEE WAI-KING, J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE LAM TAI-FAI, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHAN KIN-POR, B.B.S., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE PRISCILLA LEUNG MEI-FUN, J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE LEUNG KA-LAU THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG KWOK-CHE THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-KIN, B.B.S. THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS REGINA IP LAU SUK-YEE, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE PAUL TSE WAI-CHUN, J.P. THE HONOURABLE ALAN LEONG KAH-KIT, S.C. THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP THE HONOURABLE WONG YUK-MAN


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THE HONOURABLE CLAUDIA MO THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL TIEN PUK-SUN, B.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE NG LEUNG-SING, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE STEVEN HO CHUN-YIN THE HONOURABLE FRANKIE YICK CHI-MING THE HONOURABLE WU CHI-WAI, M.H. THE HONOURABLE YIU SI-WING THE HONOURABLE GARY FAN KWOK-WAI THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHARLES PETER MOK THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHI-CHUEN THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAN-PAN DR THE HONOURABLE KENNETH CHAN KA-LOK THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG, B.B.S., M.H., J.P. THE HONOURABLE KENNETH LEUNG THE HONOURABLE ALICE MAK MEI-KUEN, J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE KWOK KA-KI


THE HONOURABLE KWOK WAI-KEUNG THE HONOURABLE DENNIS KWOK THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG WAH-FUNG, J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE FERNANDO CHEUNG CHIU-HUNG THE HONOURABLE SIN CHUNG-KAI, S.B.S., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE HELENA WONG PIK-WAN THE HONOURABLE IP KIN-YUEN DR THE HONOURABLE ELIZABETH QUAT, J.P. THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LIAO CHEUNG-KONG, J.P. THE HONOURABLE POON SIU-PING, B.B.S., M.H. THE HONOURABLE TANG KA-PIU DR THE HONOURABLE CHIANG LAI-WAN, J.P. IR DR THE HONOURABLE LO WAI-KWOK, B.B.S., M.H., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHUNG KWOK-PAN THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHUNG SHU-KUN, B.B.S., M.H., J.P. THE HONOURABLE TONY TSE WAI-CHUEN MEMBERS ABSENT: THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAK-KAN, J.P. THE HONOURABLE LEUNG KWOK-HUNG


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PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING: THE HONOURABLE MRS CARRIE LAM CHENG YUET-NGOR, G.B.S., J.P. THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION PROF THE HONOURABLE ANTHONY CHEUNG BING-LEUNG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING THE HONOURABLE MATTHEW CHEUNG KIN-CHUNG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE: MISS ODELIA LEUNG HING-YEE, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL MRS PERCY MA, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL


MEMBERS' MOTIONS LEGISLATING FOR THE REGULATION OF WORKING HOURS Continuation of debate on motion which was moved on 17 October 2012 MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I think excessively long working hours are not just a problem faced by members of the labour sector. I think and am aware that many wage earners in the professional sectors actually face the same problem of excessively long working hours. Our information technology (IT) sector is one of such sectors. Indeed, I have to admit that extensive IT application nowadays has, in fact, extended the working hours of many people at the expense of the quality of their living. Much of our work nowadays can be done anytime as long as we have a computer and a mobile telephone that can be connected with the Internet. Very often, we can see many people bent on their electronic devices while travelling on public transport. They may not necessarily be playing games, for they may really be working. The cloud computing technology nowadays also denies wage earners the excuse of not being able to work at home because they have left the file in the office, as they can now go online to retrieve the file at home and continue to work. In this connection, I think our sector must tender an apology to the members of many other trades and industries. Even for myself, I often find it very difficult to distinguish between work time and private time. That said, concerning how IT personnel are affected by excessively long working hours, the most important point is that there are indeed many members of our sector who work overtime without compensation or without overtime pay. But if uniform arrangements are adopted in a broad-brush manner in respect of standard working hours and overtime pay, the impact on us will indeed be enormous. The reason is that many companies in our sector are engaged in the service industry, and in the service industry, wages constitute a majority component of costs. Added to this is that there are many small and medium enterprises (SMEs) and even some business start-ups in our sector. To the bosses or employers of these companies, or to the small proprietors of business start-ups, it is often the case that they do find it really difficult to meet the costs. It is a common practice in our sector that apart from taking on full-time employees, jobs are also outsourced in many cases. In the event of an


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unexpected problem or emergency incident in a project, many companies have to unilaterally absorb the costs, meaning that the company cannot charge the client extra fees while the employees will not receive any compensation for overtime work. Therefore, if the entire IT sector is rashly required to meet the requirements of standard weekly working hours and overtime pay, I believe both the employers and employees will encounter certain difficulties. Yet, a problem which is even more pressing than overtime work that I do wish to point out here is that the outsourcing system in the IT sector is unfair in many aspects, and this even includes many problems concerning government employees on contract terms. Having said that, it does not mean that we do not need these statutory requirements on standard working hours and overtime pay or we will not consider drawing up such requirements, but the IT sector is precisely a typical example which points to the need to strike a balance between improving employees' conditions of work and quality of living and meeting the cost of staff wages when making the relevant legislation in future. Otherwise, a substantial increase in wage cost would make it impossible for the SMEs to sustain their operation, in which case they would only recruit less employees. This would be doing a disservice out of good intentions, thus leading to a lose-lose situation. Therefore, my position is that insofar as the general principle is concerned, I support legislating on the regulation of working hours. But we must not proceed with it hastily and it is necessary to conduct detailed consultations and studies on trades and industries. Particularly, studies should be conducted in the light of the work habits of different professional sectors or industries, in order to ensure that the future legislation will not be enacted in a broad-brush manner and that it will be in line with the characteristics of different job types and industries. For example, IT projects have different work cycles, and while work may not necessarily reach its peak every week, sometimes there are indeed unexpected circumstances or external factors that require us to work overnight. If standard working hours are calculated on a weekly basis, our working hours will easily exceed the standard working hours whereas at some other times, our hours of work may fall short of the standard working hours. In order to meet the needs of various professions, will consideration be given to prescribing the working hours on a monthly basis or over a longer period of time? Or, should we first go back to the very basic question and consider whether standard working hours must be calculated on a weekly basis?


I believe these should be discussed by the public and various trades and industries in depth to enable the Government to better understand public aspirations and the needs of various industries in drafting the bill. This will prevent the situation where the Government will find out only when introducing the bill that the bill has fallen far short of public aspirations, thus causing greater opposition in public opinions. In that event, delays would be resulted from haste and worse still, the Government would find out that the industries could not cope with these requirements only after their implementation. Therefore, I hope that the Government can provide a timetable for conducting consultation on legislation to regulate working hours and for the enactment of legislation. Insofar as the timetable is concerned, I support the amendment proposed by my colleague, Mr Kenneth LEUNG, which calls on the Government to launch a public consultation on the enactment of legislation to regulate working hours within this Legislative Session and introduce a bill to regulate working hours in the 2013-2014 Legislative Session on the premise that public opinions are collected seriously and sufficiently. Deputy President, I so submit. DR FERNANDO CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, this pair of "panda eyes" on me today is a symbol meant to show that many wage earners in Hong Kong really have a starting time but not a finishing time at work. Their very long working hours have taken toll on their mental health or emotions, obliging them to give up much of their family life, social activities and opportunities of further studies. Indeed, the working hours in Hong Kong are very long and Hong Kong people are particularly hardworking. I remember that a survey conducted by the South China Morning Post in 2008 already found that the working hours in Hong Kong were second to none in the world. Over the past few years, a non-profit-making organization, Community Business, has commissioned the opinion poll centre of the University of Hong Kong to carry out opinion surveys. While some slight improvements have been seen in recent years, the working hours remain long. Deputy President, Hong Kong is actually most backward in terms of the regulation of working hours. Some colleagues said yesterday that the regulation of working hours had to be discussed in detail, that many problems had yet to be


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fully resolved and that they did not know how the working hours should be calculated. But 134 countries in the world have already enacted legislation on standard working hours to provide protection. Why is it that Hong Kong has not been able to do something that can be achieved by 100-odd other countries after so many years? As a matter of fact, standard working hours are the earliest labour measure for which legislation was made and protection provided in international conventions. As early as in 1919, the International Labour Organization (ILO) already set down a limit on working hours for industry, which was proposed to be 48 hours at that time. In 1930, the weekly working hours of 48 hours were extended to commerce and offices. Deputy President, we are talking about 1919 and 1930. In 1935, another international labour convention proposed that the working hours be 40 hours per week, and another "upgraded version" was further proposed in 1962. We are talking about 1935 and 1962. Deputy President, it was already proposed back in those years that 40 hours of work per week was considered appropriate. Eight hours of work, eight hours of rest and eight hours of private time daily are considered a normal arrangement. It follows that eight hours of work daily and five days of work weekly are a most basic human right. Our civilization today no longer requires human beings to work as hard as oxen and horses day and night to make ends meet. The present-day economic situation and our affluence and materialistic abundance have enabled everyone to work to an appropriate degree and to appropriately strike a balance in life. Members, I worked in the United States some two decades ago. My place of work then was a community centre where I worked 37.5 hours a week. Deputy President, it was the situation some two decades ago but Hong Kong has yet to enact legislation to regulate working hours. Many people are concerned about a significant increase in expenditure after the imposition of regulation, adding that it would be very difficult to calculate the working hours of senior employees. Sorry, I must say that such legislation actually aims to provide protection for elementary workers. It is not meant to cover senior employees who perform executive duties and are highly remunerated. They are already provided with other forms of compensation. We are now talking about elementary workers. Deputy President, we have conducted some surveys before and come across many cases. Take a look at employees in the service industry, such as the catering and security services sector. Their working hours are very long. For example, in the security services sector there is the practice of 12 hours of work


continuously, which is commonly referred to as the "penalty kick". Security guards do work long hours. There was a report in Wen Wei Po on the case of a Mr WU some time ago. Both Mr and Mrs WU are security guards and even though they live in the same place, they have not seen each other for two weeks because one of them works the day shift and the other the night shift. They said that their children are like growing up in a single-parent family, and that some of their colleagues even have not seen their family for a year. Just imagine this. When a person works 12 hours a day, plus the time spent on travelling and on washing and dressing oneself and taking meals, where is there time for him to spend with his family? This is just impossible. Where is there the opportunity for him to communicate with his children? While we are talking about developing a knowledge-based economy and upgrading the competitiveness of the grassroots, where is there time for them to pursue studies? I remember the case of a couple. The wife, who is a security guard, told me that love life is now a luxury to her, for she has no time to spare. All her time is spent on making ends meet, and the basic routines of the daily life have already taken up all the time when she is sober. Mr KWOK, who is a bus driver, is a colleague of ours in the Confederation of Trade Unions. When people generally work from 9 am until 5 pm, he works from 5 am until 9 pm, because his shift starts at 6 am and finishes at 8 pm, with three hours of rest time during the shift. He has worked for almost 20 years from 5 am until 9 pm. He leaves home at 5 am and arrives home only at 9 pm. These are the working hours of bus drivers. How many human lives do we put in the hands of these employees whose working hours are so long? Deputy President, if we do not immediately draw up a timetable for enacting legislation on standard working hours, more tragedies will be happening, and the so-called family-friendly concept is but a sham. I so submit. Thank you, Deputy President. MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, Hong Kong people are known for their diligence and can-do spirit. The economic development in the past two to three decades is the fruit of the efforts made by many people. But today, excessively long working hours have become common in all trades and industries. To what extent can members of the public enjoy the fruit of their toil? I really have doubts about this.


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Let me cite a typical example in real life: Mrs TAM who lives in Tin Shui Wai is a mother. Her daughter is in primary school. She gets up at 6.30 am to make breakfast for her daughter. She will take her daughter to school and then leaves home at 7.30 am for work in order to reach her office on Hong Kong Island by 9 am. Theoretically, she finishes work at 6 pm but in reality, she always has to work overtime. If she is lucky, she can leave the office at 7 pm and by 8 pm, she may reach the market in Tin Shui Wai or the more expensive supermarket to buy food. Once home, she has to prepare and cook the food, and she will have dinner with her family only at 9 pm. After dinner, if she spends some time talking with her daughter or checking her homework and doing the laundry and household chores, and when she looks at the clock, she will find that it is already time for the late news. Even if she wishes to go out for a walk or to do some exercise or watch television to relax, she does not have the strength to do anything because she is already exhausted, and she can go to bed only at around midnight. The next morning, she has to get up at 6.30 am again. Many people employ domestic helpers to help with the home making but this is an option only for the better-off families. Families in poverty can only sacrifice their rest time and keep on struggling. Moreover, domestic helpers can only share the burden of household chores. They cannot help in the communication with family members; they cannot fulfil the duty of parents in teaching their children; nor can they alleviate their emotional burden. Deputy President, we all know that family and health are very important to a person, and it is regrettable that most people spend the least time on these two aspects. As working hours become increasingly long, many Hong Kong people will see their employers and colleagues most often every day and spend the longest time of the day in office. Employers and the persons-in-charge of a company mostly hold a negative view on employees who leave the office punctually every day, thinking that they are not adequately committed to their work, while employees also have the mentality that leaving the office punctually is like "winning the first prize", an extravagant hope that they do not dare to harbour. Deputy President, setting reasonable working hours and rest days is not a simple issue of labour welfare, but involves such social aspects as family, giving birth, healthcare, and so on. The issue of standard working hours involves a greater number of employees and employers and also broader strata than


minimum wage does. Detailed consideration is necessary in drawing up the policy. Employers of major enterprises or small and medium enterprises (SMEs) should not always think that wage earners are loafing on the job. They should bear in mind that there is no end to making money. Employees only work for the company. They are not sold to their employers and should not be made to sell out their families and health for work. Other than work, employees should also live an enriched life. On the other hand, employees should not always think that their boss is mean. It is a fact that the cost of doing business is expensive in Hong Kong, and it is absolutely not easy for SMEs to gain a firm foothold successfully. Deputy President, I hope that the Government will expeditiously set up a dedicated committee on standard working hours to look into the issue of standard working hours. I also hope that this committee will be comprised of members from various strata, including employers and employees from a diversity of industries, academics and government representatives, and of course, representatives of the Legislative Council. The committee should collect information on various fronts and conduct detailed studies and discussions to enable all parties to thoroughly understand the pros and cons of standard working hours. Certainly, it is necessary to consider whether standard working hours are applicable to all job types, and a consensus should be reached before implementation. It is imperative to strike a balance between protecting employees' rights and interests and maintaining economic flexibility. I also hope that the legislation on standard working hours will not cause greater disputes and confrontations in society, but will contribute to achieving a win-win situation in labour relationship. I support Dr CHIANG Lai-wan's amendment. Deputy President, I so submit. Thank you. MR CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung's amendment to Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che's motion on "Legislating for the regulation of working hours" proposed that the number of standard weekly


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working hours should not exceed 40 hours and that the overtime pay must be 1.5 times the normal pay as compensation. I think that this amendment cannot reflect the different situations of various trades and industries in actual operation. Deputy President, in tandem with the continuous development of the international financial centre of Hong Kong, financial globalization is set to become the trend of development. The characteristics of the financial services industry in Hong Kong are different from those of other industries in general. Practitioners in the industry already understand clearly that the working hours are irregular in the industry and that work is sometimes busy and sometimes less busy. Some employees may have to work outside Hong Kong to meet the business needs of the company, or they may have to attend business functions at night. Therefore, it is very difficult to monitor or record their working hours. The business benefits of the company are not directly related to the length of employees' working hours. Rather, they are related to work efficiency and the economic benefits generated from the company's business. The working hours in the financial services industry in Hong Kong are, to a certain extent, linked with the external markets. For instance, front-line analysts of market information have to go to work at an earlier time every day, in order to analyse information on investment and economic data in overseas financial markets for reference by investors. While colleagues providing logistics support may have a less heavy workload in the morning, they are very busy after the close of trading hours. All the listed companies will conduct their share placement or allotment activities and news announcements after the close of trading hours, and these colleagues have to follow up all the developments, such as the introduction and promotion of the listing of new stock or placing of existing shares. Employees of stock brokerage firms or those of banks are likely to be required to work overtime, and there is no uniform standard on the length of time required for completing a task. If this type of work is remunerated on an hourly rate, the completion time may be deferred to the detriment of the competiveness of the financial markets in Hong Kong. The opening and closing times of the financial markets are clearly specified but even after the start of stock trading, employees may not have a lot of work to do and they can only wait for the closing time. Practitioners in the industry have long grown accustomed to this characteristic of the industry in that work is sometimes busy and sometimes less busy. Both employers and employees


already have a consensus and they understand that the working hours of employees are not a basis for calculating the salary of employees. If the requirement or standard of maximum working hours is rigidly implemented in the financial services industry, the following problems may be resulted:

(1) The well-established culture in the industry will be changed. If employees are accustomed to the consensus that they are remunerated not on the basis of the company's economic benefits but the hours of work that they spend in office, it would not be conducive to the upgrading of the quality of the industry as a whole.

(2) Employers facing an increase in operational cost may be forced to

consider outsourcing some of the work or the entire process of logistics support to companies outside Hong Kong, thus indirectly undermining the overall quality of the financial services industry and reducing the number of employees in the industry, which is not conducive to the long-term development of Hong Kong economy.

(3) If this industry is rigidly required to pay extra wages for overtime

work, it would sow greater discord between employees and employers. In fact, the entry pay for employees in the industry has factored in the characteristics of work in this industry. This is also stated clearly in the employment contract, and it is unnecessary to further change the method for calculating employees' salary. In view of high rental and high wages, enterprises are under very great pressure in their operation, and if legislation is made to provide for standard working hours, it would add to the burden of SMEs.

(4) In the event that the employees' workload has increased or decreased

occasionally due to a temporary rise or decline in the business of the company, it has been the industry practice that employers and employees can make an agreement on swapping employees' paid or unpaid leave to offset the payment. If it is rigidly required that additional wages must be paid for overtime work, this proven adjustment function will be jeopardized, taking toll on the harmony


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between employers and employees and sowing greater conflicts among them.

(5) Some employees in the financial services industry are occasionally

required to work outside their working hours and outside their offices. It will be a great difficulty to calculate the actual working hours of such employees. If a limit is rigidly imposed on working hours more unnecessary disputes would be resulted and the flexibility of employees at work eroded. Hong Kong is an externally oriented economy, and if we fail to operate in co-ordination with other world markets, the competiveness of Hong Kong economy would be undermined in the long term.

For these reasons, Deputy President, I will oppose Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung's amendment (The buzzer sounded) …… DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Time is up. MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the so-called nine-to-five working hours is the long-recognized dream of wage earners in Hong Kong. A recent survey shows that the daily working hours of Hong Kong people have changed from nine hours to 14 hours and 30% of the interviewees say that they have to work six days a week. The findings of the survey also show that the average number of working hours in a week for Hong Kong people has reached 48 hours. The figures show that working hours are too long and they also show that our wealth does not come by easily. For many years the various trades and industries, trade unions and labour concern groups have conducted many surveys on working hours. Compared to other advanced economies in the world, the working hours here in Hong Kong rank among the longest. The effects of long working hours will not only lower efficiency in work but also affect the family and social life of the workers and even their health. The International Labour Organization (ILO) of the United Nations has long since proposed the idea of a "8+8+8 system" and it is recommended that the


weekly number of working hours should be 48. Then with the development of society, this is gradually changed to 40 hours. Now more than 100 countries and places in the world have legislated on working hours. But it must be noted that when legislating on working hours, they all took into account the scale of their economic development and built in a certain degree of flexibility to allow leniency or exemption in accordance with different conditions. For more than a decade the labour groups in Hong Kong in their fight for prescription of a minimum wage by way of legislation have also started a fight for legislation on standard working hours. There are discussions on this topic in society from time to time, and the employers, employees, academics and the Government all hold different views. Some of them think that Hong Kong is not a large place and its population is dense and it is a relatively small and open economy. More than 90% of the enterprises here are SMEs. Our economy is also marked by a great variety of job types, including trade, logistics, the media, and so on. They are all under different restrictions owing to the nature of their work. On top of this, there is also a distinction between those who exert more in physical strength and those who work with their brain or those who engage in jobs requiring the exertion of both mental and physical efforts. For some people, they have to work in the office and also at home. If it is required that rigid standard working hours be imposed, it would seem to be unrealistic and the flexibility and productivity of an enterprise may be affected. Meanwhile, there are also people who think that the prescription of standard working hours will serve to protect labour rights and since the relevant recommendation of the ILO has long been recognized in various countries, so it would be running against the global tide if Hong Kong does not legislate on working hours despite the long time taken to study the issue. Also, this would give employers a chance to exploit the employees. Hence, it is thought that the prescription of standard working hours is beneficial to the efficiency of employees at work as well as to their health, families and society as a whole. After considering all these points of view, I would think that the achievements made in society and the progress made in the economy are the results of the concerted efforts exerted by both employers and employees and the hard work of every person in society. The elementary workers have contributed


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by toiling and they are certainly an important asset of society. They should be respected, cared for and valued. Different kinds of employees or workers should be given a suitable environment to work and they should have a proper time for rest and be given reasonable pay as reward. The enactment of legislation to regulate working hours may cause a significant impact on the development of a diversified economy and the livelihood of people living in a society which is characterized by a dominance of SMEs in number. And the impact so produced may lead to instability. So a considerable number of trades and industries, including the finance industry, do have reservations about it. I would think that this issue of prescribing standard working hours should be left to the employers, employees and the Government, which should take into account the situation in various trades and industries, plus the existence of different job types. The decision should be based on objective data and made in an objective manner and the prescription should be implemented in a gradual and orderly manner. There should be partial and pilot implementation in various trades and job types, based on the principle of taking it forward in trades which are easier to implement, before going to the more difficult ones. For some other trades, studies should be conducted to foster the right conditions and when the objectivities are ripe, legislation can be enacted. As for the actual criteria to be applied to standard working hours, timely reviews and adjustments should be made in the light of economic development. But at the end of the day, all this should be done on the premise of not stifling our competitiveness. And when that occasion comes, this Council should abide strictly by the law and we must not permit any filibustering which results in so many people having to work overtime for long periods. Standard working hours which are desirable should be beneficial to the balanced development of the economy, society and people's living. I hope that with the collaboration of people from all sectors across the community, a consensus can be reached so that workers can enjoy their work, the companies prosper and society makes progress, hence resulting in a three-win situation. Deputy President, I so submit. MR CHUNG KWOK-PAN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, as we all know, the core values of Hong Kong people are the protection of freedom, human rights


and the rule of law. These core values should be upheld and defended no matter what. But we have forgotten that another core value we should defend is our remarkable achievements in the world. Our global competitiveness is still in the forefront, and of the 144 economies in the world, Hong Kong ranks the ninth and the second in Asia. The major reason for this is that all along the people of Hong Kong have been working hard, always striving for excellence, efficiency and speed. But the introduction of standard working hours or maximum working hours will change the core values by which we succeed as a free economy, and this is something we need to defend. In the case of France, its standard working hours per week are 35 hours. In the ranking of free economies across the world compiled by the Heritage Foundation of the United States, France ranks 67th. In terms of the freedom of workers, it is the view of the Foundation that France over-protects its workers. The result is undermined competitiveness and a high jobless rate. In the first quarter of this year, the economic growth in France was close to naught and the jobless rate in the fourth quarter last year was as high as 9.4%. Some people think that standard working hours should be introduced because the working hours of employees in Hong Kong are too long and this indirectly leads to them being deprived of family life and the time they can otherwise spend with their children and family members. Hence they are unable to lead a quality life. And so there is this demand for the prescription of standard working hours. However, as they demand the imposition of standard working hours, they also demand that overtime work be rewarded at a rate of doubling the regular pay. If the nature of the trades does not change and the working hours of employees remain the same, it is certain that their salary will increase. But insofar as the aim of improving the quality of life of employees is concerned, I fail to see that this can be helpful in any way. In fact, many people know that an across-the-board approach cannot be adopted for all trades and industries with respect to this issue of standard working hours because each trade and industry operates in a different manner. So there are also people who say that certain trades and industries should be granted exemption. But how are we to apply any standard for that purpose? Some people say that jobs with a monthly salary of $25,000 or above should be exempted. And some Members have also said earlier that standard working hours are meant to protect the elementary workers. Then may I ask, do people


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in the management not need to spend time with their families and do they not need an upgrade in the quality of their life? This is unfair to them and it may cause division. It was mentioned earlier that it would be difficult to apply a universal approach to many job types and implement standard working hours in all of them. For example, we know that accountants have to work from morning till night whenever accounts are to be settled at the end of a year. The people in the advertising industry have to think up smart ideas for their clients and they would not take any rest unless and until the job is done. Should we apply an arbitrary standard to these trades and require that employees in them should only work 40 hours a week? In addition, there are people from the trade unions who suggest that the standard working hours should be 40 hours a week and any work done in excess should be counted as overtime work and be paid at a rate of 1.5 times of the regular wage. In this way, we can see that standard working hours may not actually reduce the working hours of employees. But for the employers, they will have to pay more in salary. So standard working hours cannot actually achieve the aim that it sets out to do and on the contrary, it will impose a restriction on the business sector, in particular, SMEs in their normal course of development. That Hong Kong can grow into an international city and an advanced economy owes to a very large extent to the can-do spirit of its people. The implementation of standard working hours will undermine the flexibility by which we achieve our success as well as our competitiveness in the international arena. The Liberal Party will never want to deprive workers of their rights and we support reasonable compensation being paid for work done by workers. But we oppose any arbitrary imposition of a similar ceiling on working hours for all trades and industries or all employees because such a move is not just overlooking the unique characteristics of each and every trade and industry but it also deprives people of the chance of achieving success through hard work. This is inconsistent with the spirit of Hong Kong, nor is it a good thing for our long-term development. It will even change the conditions upon which we rely for our success. Thank you, Deputy President. I so submit.


MR RONNY TONG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, when I was reading this draft speech prepared for me by my assistant, I had a feeling that the contents were very familiar. Honestly, as far as I can recall, this topic has been discussed in this Council for an innumerable number of years. Deputy President, your Honour may say that this is only because I do not have a good memory. But I believe you will also agree that at least over the past five or six years, we have had a debate on this topic almost every year. The arguments advanced by Members are repetitive. In actual life, the social repercussions caused by the absence of standard working hours have cropped up before our eyes on various occasions. Last Wednesday, as Members were taking their oaths, and while we were excited and actively taking part in the event, I do not know if Members were aware that there was a group of tough guys in front of the entrance to this Complex. They were the fire-fighters. They demanded that concern be paid to their plight and their years-long demand for a 48-hour working week be supported. Their arguments are very forceful because of the fact that their work is to save people in danger and for these fire-fighters who have to brave blazes, fatigue would not only harm themselves but also those they are tasked to rescue. Another incident that we may mention is the maritime disaster on 1 October. We can read from the papers that the working hours of captains are that they are normally deployed to work on a "one-day-on and one-day-off" system. The fatigue they felt could be a cause of the maritime disaster. Even if fatigue was not the cause of the tragedy, their working conditions would pose a substantial threat to marine safety. Deputy President, as I reviewed the motions, I could find that the voting intentions of the Members are very interesting. Whenever mention was made of standard working hours, such as when the number of working hours were 40, 44 or 48, the motions concerned would certainly be voted down by the functional constituency Members. Of course, the Liberal Party, …… we can see from the speeches made by Members earlier that this is clear enough. But Deputy President, on the other hand, whenever mention was made of matters not related to working hours, the motions concerned would be passed easily. Examples are the motion proposed by Mr CHAN Hak-kan on formulating an animal-friendly policy and the motion proposed by Mr WONG Yung-kan on promoting the development of leisure fishing activities in Hong Kong. I must say that these


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motions are quite creative. But just imagine, when we think that in the workplace, when some people do not even have the time to spend with their wife and children, not to say the time for angling and keeping pets, why do Members show their support for policies on pets and angling? Why are Members so stubborn in refusing to pass motions on the working hours of wage earners? Of course, people would have a lot of excuses to offer. For those from the Liberal Party, they say that as bosses, they cannot agree to this idea because this would push up the costs. Deputy President, as Members of this Council, we are in the same position. We do not have any rest day and we work seven days a week. Often we have to work more than 12 hours a day. The only difference is that this is entirely our choice. We can choose not to become Members of this Council. Deputy President, if you do not hold this office, I am sure the money you can make will be many times more than the money you are making now. But this is not the case with the grassroots and workers. Often times they do not have any choice and they also have to face a situation where they do not dare to leave earlier than their bosses. They have to sit in the office. This is overtime work without pay. And this is the mentality of the average wage earner. You may say that it would not be meaningful if we put the two kinds of people together in our discussion. Deputy President, I do not think that this is necessarily the case. We should not forget that the issue of standard working hours is not an issue of social ethics. Deputy President, this is a constitutional issue. Article 39 of the Basic Law clearly provides that we have to follow the provisions in the international labour conventions and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. Article 7 of the latter clearly provides that the Covenant "recognizes the right of everyone to the enjoyment of just and favourable conditions of work which ensure, in particular …… rest, leisure and reasonable limitation". When wage earners work seven days a week, this is totally in contravention of the Covenant, the international labour conventions and the Basic Law which provide for just and favourable conditions of work and such an environment. A five-day work week has been implemented in the Civil Service and civil servants work for less than 48 hours a week. Why can the civil servants enjoy this but not the other wage earners? When civil servants practise the five-day work week and working hours of no more than 48 hours a week, will the


Secretary say that this is unfair to him and can he say that he only works five days a week and that his salary should be increased by 1.5 times for any overtime work done? I do not think he would say that. Right? The Secretary may choose to resign. I think when many Secretaries choose to resign, almost all the people in Hong Kong would clap their hands in applause. But this is not the case with wage earners. Deputy President, ours is a developed city. But according to information available, we are really very much behind our neighbouring countries and places. In Taiwan, the standard working hours are 48 hours. In Singapore, it is 44 hours. In Korea, it is 40 to 44 hours. In Japan, it is 40 hours. Even in our great Motherland, the working hours are only 40 hours. Why is there no such regulation in Hong Kong? Deputy President, Hong Kong is pursuing development in many areas and it is our hope that we will overtake countries in Southeast Asia. But our labour matters always lag behind others. In this Council, many excuses are advanced to obstruct the passage of laws beneficial to the working conditions of the workers. Deputy President, our Secretary for Labour and Welfare has a pet phrase and that is, "to the point". Whenever I chat with him and no matter what I say, he will say that something is to the point and ask me to accept it first. Deputy President, I hope that when the Secretary speaks later in response, he will not put in many of these useless ideas when he talks about conducting a study on the subject of standard working hours. In the issue of minimum wage, we have had many of his useless ideas and we have had enough of them. So I hope that he can really do something to the point and be a Policy Secretary who is to the point. I hope the Secretary can bring some good news to the wage earners in this respect. Thank you, Deputy President. MR JAMES TIEN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the speech I am going to make represents not only the position of the Liberal Party but also the position which I held when I ran for the elections in New Territories East. Deputy President, it was only in May last year that Hong Kong put in place the minimum wage system. The impact so caused has not surfaced entirely. Although the Government has spent almost two years to study the issue of


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standard working hours, the report of that study is still not yet available. No account of the study has been made to this Council so that Members can weigh the pros and cons. However, earlier on the authorities announced that a dedicated committee on standard working hours would be formed. This I would regard as "jumping the gun" because it seems that standard working hours are bound to be introduced. This is no different from handing down a verdict before hearing a case and drawing a foregone conclusion. This is blatant disregard of the realistic situation in the business sector, hence a very dangerous step to take. Admittedly, all these talks about standard working hours are nicely put in the name of fighting for the rights of wage earners. But if we think about it carefully, we will find that if Hong Kong introduces a policy on this, we may not get the advantages that Members are talking about. These include, for example, the arguments that people will have more time to spend with their children and they do not have to do any excessive work. We would even think that some counterproductive effects may be caused and as a result, labour relations will be caught in a quagmire and all parties will stand to lose. Many of the some 100 countries which have prescribed standard working hours are long-time industrial countries. And laws on standard working hours are usually applied to job types in the manufacturing industries where production comes in the form of assembly lines and can be quantified. Such laws would not be applicable to a place like Hong Kong where the service industries take up 93% of the economy overall according to statistics in 2011. The service industries stress flexibility, creativity and versatility. It is therefore totally inappropriate to import wholesale a system which is meant to control the production procedures in the industries. Therefore, for these some 100 countries, especially the United States, the federal laws there provide for many exemption clauses. These are lenient requirements which Mr Ronny TONG has talked about and we can find numerous examples of them. (THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair) In the United States, exemption is given to the managerial class and people engaged in doing business with overseas markets. Do standard working hours work in the United States? Some Members have made a study tour to South Korea and found that in Korea, the government there is lenient to the service


industries. In Korea, exemption is given to 12 trades and industries, like finance and insurance, transport, catering and hotel, education and research, medical and health, logistics and warehouse. This list includes trades and industries which are most controversial in Hong Kong at present, like the industries which Mr Christopher CHEUNG has talked about. These industries employ 37% of the workforce in Korea. Besides, the maximum working hours of 12 hours are subject to change by mutual consent. From this it can be seen that even in Korea, the policy on standard working hours is only applicable to the manufacturing industries which take up 40% of the workforce. But in Hong Kong, these 12 trades and industries cover a large part of the workforce. It is therefore incorrect to import wholesale the practice in South Korea to Hong Kong. People who support standard working hours often say that employees in Hong Kong work very long hours and this affects their rest and family life. But according to data in the latest report compiled by the Census and Statistics Department in 2012, the average working hours of Hong Kong employees in a week are only 45 hours. Although there are bound to be differences among certain trades, the number of working hours is not very much larger than that found in other countries, which usually ranges from 40 to 48 hours. Of course, when the Liberal Party does not agree that we should legislate for standard working hours, it does not mean that we approve of the exploitation of workers, or that we care nothing about the welfare of workers. On the other hand, the Liberal Party agrees that a system of contractual working hours should be adopted. In Hong Kong, most employers would enter into an employment contract with their employees, stating the salary, holidays, working hours and even fringe benefits. I would think that if employees work at times other than those specified in the contract, the employer concerned should give the employees leave in lieu or extra pay. Certainly, there is no hard and fast rule about compensation, that is, whether or not the overtime compensation should be double the amount of normal pay. I think that this can be decided when a contract is entered into between the employer and the employee. There may be some uniform requirements for some companies while for some companies, there may be differences according to various job types. Also, I wish to point out that this practice can pre-empt the problem of undermining the competitiveness of enterprises. This is a point we often make, but Members who are on the side on employees do not subscribe to it. If we


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look at the economy of the 100-odd countries mentioned by Members earlier, we will find that their unemployment rates are all higher than the rate in Hong Kong. Not many of these countries have a jobless rate lower than Hong Kong which only stands at 3.2%. In many countries, the jobless rate is as high as 10% or some 20%. Although it must be noted that standard working hours are not the only cause for a high unemployment rate, I would think that this is definitely one of the causes. Another thing is that we often say that after the prescription of standard working hours, the employees can have more time for their families. However, this is not necessarily the case when we look at the latest information on that in Korea and Japan. For example, the suicide rate in Korea and Japan is the highest in Asia. For some other countries like the United Kingdom and the United States which have introduced standard working hours and which we often cite as examples, the problems of domestic violence and divorce there are very serious. In other words, as I see it, countries which have imposed standard working hours do not necessarily have happy families. We also think that the Government should encourage more companies to adopt flexible working hours or staggered working hours. This can make working time more flexible to the benefit of wage earners. We think that with the low unemployment rate in Hong Kong now, employers would often find it difficult to hire workers. If the imposition of standard working hours is introduced and working hours are set as 9 am to 6 pm, will Hong Kong be able to hire enough workers? Since the unemployment rate in Hong Kong is only 3.2%, once standard working hours are introduced, there may be people who will call for the importation of labour again and if that happens, I am sure another round of disputes will arise. President, for the reasons cited, the Liberal Party opposes the original motion and all the amendments. MR ALAN LEONG (in Cantonese): President, when we propose that the problem of wage earners being forced to work as volunteers be solved by means of contracts, I think we have overlooked the fact that wage earners and employers are not on an equal footing. It is not a choice of to do or not to do, as mentioned by some colleagues or Mr Ronny TONG earlier, for the majority of wage earners


do not have any choice and this is entirely the decision of employers. If employers require them to work as unpaid volunteers, they have to do so, and the only difference is that they are forced to do so. Hence, contractual working hours is not a really practicable solution. It is precisely for this reason that we have to legislate for minimum wage. Back then, the incumbent Chief Executive, Donald TSANG, had introduced the Wage Protection Scheme, yet the Scheme turned out to be a failure for the aforesaid reason. Surely, we will not underestimate the difficulties mentioned by Mr James TIEN earlier on behalf of the Liberal Party. However, giving up is never the way to deal with difficulties, we should instead find solutions to overcome the difficulties. President, we may perhaps refer to a survey. In 2010, the Oxfam commissioned the University of Hong Kong to conduct an opinion poll on standard working hours. Over 60% of the respondents supported legislating for maximum working hours, and over 80% of the respondents considered that the problem of working overtime was extremely serious in Hong Kong. The survey at the time asked questions about maximum working hours. Naturally, many people may say that the concept of maximum working hours is frightening. The Liberal Party in particular may consider that the imposition of maximum working hours will undermine the economy and affect the business environment. However, we are not discussing the concept of maximum working hours but standard working hours instead. In the discussion on standard working hours, the focus should not be the interpretation of a purely economic concern. Certainly, Mr Ronny TONG says that this is a constitutional issue. Apart from this constitutional perspective, the issue may be put in a more humane perspective. I think it is a matter of principle and ethics. I believe employers of large consortia, as well as those of SMEs, would agree that employees should be offered a reasonable return. This should be an indisputable principle, that is, the more you work, the more you are rewarded. I am not requesting the prescription of maximum working hours and making it unlawful to work in excess of it. I am only demanding compensation for overtime work. This is a fair rule of the game between employers and employees. In Hong Kong, as I mentioned earlier, employees are often forced to work as volunteers, for reasonable compensation is not made for their overtime work. In other words, every time they work overtime, they are working as volunteers, only that they are forced to do so. Hence, our present concern is that when Hong


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Kong is making economic achievement admired worldwide, should not we allow wage earners who have contributed to such achievement to enjoy the fruits? Should they be given the opportunity to ― as mentioned by other colleagues at the risk of being repetitive ― take care of their families, to pursue further studies or to engage in leisure activities. However, some people consider the concept unacceptable. The former Chief Executive, Donald TSANG, had said in the previous term of government that the Government was considering the introduction of standard working hours. However, the content of the motion urging the Government to introduce a bill within this Legislative Session is deleted by an amendment to the wordings of the original motion. Regarding these amendments seeking to delete the request for the introduction of a bill on the regulation of working hours within this Legislative Session, the Civic Party can hardly support them. I would like to explain the case clearly on behalf of the Civic Party. The study on minimum wage and suitable working hours are two sides of a coin. It is impracticable to set a minimum wage without setting suitable working hours, for in this way employers will be condoned in continuing to press wage earners to work overtime as volunteers, thus defeating the purpose of setting a minimum wage. On behalf of the Civic Party, I have to make it clear that we earnestly hope that the Government will introduce a bill on standard working hours within the current term of the Legislative Council. We admit that there will be difficulties, yet the authorities should draw on collective wisdom to deal with these difficulties. It should take forward the cause despite the difficulties rather than backing off. Hence, we will support the original motion proposed by Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che today, and all amendments retaining the request for the Government to introduce a bill on standard working hours within the four-year term of this Legislative Council. I so submit. MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): I think today is a very sad day. Come to think about this. A century ago, the International Labour Organization (ILO) stated that the standard weekly working hours should be 48 hours. A century has passed. Actually, this statement was put forth by the ILO on 19 October 1919, so by today, which is 17 October, nearly a century has passed. In other words, it was proposed a century ago that the standard weekly working hours for labour around the world should be set at 48 hours. However, today, workers in


Hong Kong are still pleading to the Government for legislation on standard working hours. Seventy years ago, it was proposed that the working hours should be 40, yet today the authorities are still procrastinating. The GDP per capita of Hong Kong has already exceeded that of the United Kingdom and the United States of America, ranking the sixth in the world. However, the working hours in Hong Kong are the longest, and we rank the 84th in terms of the happiness index. This is your fault, for you are imposing obstacles to prevent the enactment of legislation on standing working hours. Despite the prosperity in Hong Kong, workers are living in predicament. We should be ashamed of this, should we not? Regarding the reasons advanced earlier for opposing the prescription of standing working hours, those concerns are after all about operating costs, flexibility of business operation and the free economy of Hong Kong. Who has ever considered the price paid by wage earners for the economy of Hong Kong, for the flexibility of business operation and for lower operating costs? Who has ever factored into this the cost of the health of workers? Workers are working 16 or 12 hours every day. Are they iron-cast men who would not feel tired after 16 hours of work? Would they not fall ill and feel worn out? How many people in Hong Kong are now suffering from back-pain, fatigue failure and distorted arms? In what way has the cost of their health been reflected? Has the cost of their mental health been counted? Given the intense pressure, many people in Hong Kong are out of their mind, and has this been taken into account? These are costs, are they not? Do you mean that the cost borne by people needs not be counted and only pecuniary costs incurred in business operation will be? How about the cost of families? Nowadays, both parents of certain families have to work, so they have to leave their children unattended or to the care of their grandparents. They may not have the time to meet with their children throughout the week and they cannot supervise their children in their studies. Since these children lack supervision in their studies, they may become astray as a result of the lack of love in their family life, and they cannot catch up with their studies. How should these costs be counted? Moreover, regarding the popular references to "spinsters" and "home-bound bachelors", I would say that there are no "spinsters" and "home-bound bachelors" in this world, and they are all wage earners who have to work long hours and no time left for their private life. They have no time to go out with the opposite sex. If they cannot go out with the opposite sex, how can


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they get married? How can they raise children? The Government says that there is a problem with the population in Hong Kong and population policies have to be formulated. In fact, given the long working hours in Hong Kong, problems will definitely arise in the population. From the perspective of employers, we have actually stepped into their shoes in considering the issue, for cost efficiency is one of their considerations. If the working hours are shortened, the efficiency will be increased …… I have to refer to the scientific view advanced by the smart President Jasper TSANG 10 to 11 years ago. What did he say? He said that Members should not expect that the efficiency of employees working for eight hours would be doubled when they worked for 16 hours ― this remark was made by President Jasper TSANG. Cost efficiency should be taken into account. However, after listening to the debate today, I feel even more upset. I have looked up the speeches made by Members on legislating for standard working hours proposed by the former Member, Mr LAU Chin-shek, on 7 July 2000. The speeches made by Members today do not differ much from those made 11 to 12 years ago. Sometimes, Members should try to understand why I would be so anxious and emotional. I have been waiting for more than a decade, yet Members are still saying the same thing. Mr James TIEN, I am very disappointed. What have you said after taking part in the direct elections? The only new idea you mentioned is the so-called contractual working hours. What does it mean by contractual working hours? It means that employers and employees will enter into contracts in respect of the hours to be worked, say 12 hours or 14 hours. What else? This is contractual working hours. The Liberal Party is stating the views they made more than a decade ago. However, since Mr James TIEN belongs to the business sector, I am not so disappointed with him sometimes. I am most disappointed with the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong (DAB). President, regarding the speech from Dr CHIANG Lai-wan, I find it unacceptable. She said that hours worked could hardly be calculated, for employers did not know how much time wage earners had spent on the Internet in minding their personal matters. Following the same line of logic, Members may as well query the time wage earners spent on going to the lavatory. Should the time be deducted from the hours worked? For going to the lavatory is the personal matter of employees, which is unrelated to their work. Should the computation be done this way? Besides, she knew nothing about the plight of the general public. She was talking nonsense. In fact, sometimes, wage earners are so busy that they do not even have the time to go to the lavatory.


They have endless work to do, how will they have time to handle their personal matters? They do not even have the time to care about their family matters and the studies of their children, and they do not have the time to meet with teachers. Where are our families? But the DAB is really …… Please refer to the remarks made by your former Chairman Jasper TSANG, who at least stated his support for standard working hours. Why would they have retrogressed to the present state? Has Mr TAM Yiu-chung, being the Chairman of the DAB and the former Vice-Chairman of the Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions, betrayed his class? Has he become a strikebreaker? He should give supportive remarks on behalf of the DAB instead of procrastinating. However, I have the impression that throughout the debate, all opposing Members, or Members who say they will support the idea, are deliberately resorting to procrastination. Certainly, the Government is the culprit. How many years has the Government procrastinated? Had the Government started considering the issue a decade or so ago, had it commenced the study on …… Even in the recent study, the Secretary has tried to procrastinate. He said that a report would be submitted in six months, but the report has yet to be completed by now. He then said that it would be completed by the end of November. He has thus procrastinated for a few more months. The study conducted by him has been procrastinated for more than a year. So, the entire issue has been dragged on for such a long time. President, I really feel sorry for the workers in Hong Kong, for such views are still being presented in the Legislative Council today. Thank you, President. MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, a few years ago, when the drama "Design for Living" directed by Edward LAM was staged in Hong Kong, the rating was rather good. The theme of the drama was that "one must work in order to live, but yet work always prompts fear and evasion, and the reason is that work kills our life." Regrettably, the drama is an apt portrayal of the situation of wage earners in Hong Kong. Some newspapers have interviewed Hong Kong people pursuing career development in Singapore. The interviewees think that Singapore is better than Hong Kong for they have their own life apart from work. According to statistics, employees in Hong Kong rank the top among the four dragons in Asia, who are extremely hard-working. They work an average of 2 340 hours per annum, which is 12.5% higher than the level recommended by the International Labour Organization.


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Excessively long working hours will increase the risk of employees of suffering from heart diseases, emotional disorders and other illnesses. Worse still, it will seriously affect the private life and family life of employees. According to certain statistics, 45% of the working mothers only have one to three hours every day to spend with their children. Wage earners do not have enough time to spend with their families, not to mention enjoying leisure life. In 2010, the FTU commissioned The Chinese University of Hong Kong to conduct a study to examine the habits of Hong Kong people participating in sports activities. The survey found that 48% of the interviewees had spent less than an hour on sports every week. The interviewees considered that one of the factors affecting their sports habit was that they lacked the time for it. Moreover, according to the report of the Panel on Manpower on their duty visit to South Korea, the implementation of standard working hours will indirectly promote cultural and sports development. I believe the implementation of standard working hours will also bring positive effects to the cultural and sports development in Hong Kong, which will be conducive to the reinforcement of a sense of belonging, a sense of self-recognition and harmony in society. President, I support the Government in legislating for standard working hours. However, I have some concerns about the details of implementation. Hence, I hope that the Government will seriously deal with the following issues in formulating the policy. First, the implementation of standard working hours will involve all trades and salary earners, and given the unique modes of operation of different trades and industries, how will the Government set the standard working hours? Take the cultural sector as an example. Many members of the sector are self-employed, and many of them adopt a non-regular mode of work. How should their hours worked be accounted? According to the experience overseas, exemption will be granted to certain trades or job types. Upon the implementation of standard working hours in Hong Kong, which trades and job types will be exempted from regulation or how will they be subject to regulation? Finally, Hong Kong is a society upholding free economy, what if employees want to work longer hours to get more pay to improve their standard of living, and what if they want to take up part-time jobs other than their full-time ones, so how will the maximum hours of overtime work be prescribed in these cases? We all know that the implementation of standard working hours and overtime pay will put pressure on certain SMEs in terms of costs and administrative work. Since SMEs are the major pillar of the economy of Hong


Kong, I think the Government should give due regard to the introduction of certain measures of co-ordination in policy formulation to alleviate the pressure of SMEs. Take South Korea as an example. The Government will consider the scales of companies and implement standard working hours in phases. Moreover, it is allowed under the law to offer compensatory leave in lieu of overtime pay provided that agreement is reached between employers and employees. The Government of South Korea has also implemented flexible work hours to cater for the needs of various trades and job types. Furthermore, the Government of South Korea has established a committee comprising employers and representatives of the labour sector to discuss the policy in depth and foster a consensus in society. Hong Kong may draw reference from these measures. Apart from the aforesaid measures, I think the Government may also offer tax concessions or a grace period, so as to garner the support of SMEs. President, I believe Hong Kong people are hard-working and they can endure hardships. Under the present mode of economic development, the demand of employers has changed significantly in comparison with the past. The countries and regions around us have completed the relevant legislation in succession. Hong Kong is obviously lagging behind them. Besides, the competitiveness of employees in Hong Kong should not be maintained by long working hours alone. To facilitate family policy and promote healthy living, I support legislating for standard working hours. However, when it comes to policy enforcement, many particulars have to be discussed by society in depth and in a rational manner in order to reach a consensus on the policy content. If the Government is required to complete the legislative work within a year before the completion of such studies and consultation, it may be too hasty. Besides, we should avoid arousing unnecessary disputes in society for this reason. Hence, I support the amendment proposed by Mr Michael TIEN, hoping that the SAR Government will commence the study on regulation of working hours as soon as possible and take proactive actions to take forward the work in this connection. However, I have to stress that while I am supportive, I still hope that the Government will strive to complete the relevant legislative work within the term of this Legislative Council. Thank you, President. MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): President, we are discussing the legislating for standard working hours. Many people think that we should give regard to the elementary workers, which is only natural. At the same time, many people


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think that this issue is not related to professionals. In the Legislative Council, we often see a group of people who we know cannot be regarded as professionals technically. They are the journalists. Of course, I am not saying that they are not professional, yet they are not required to obtain any license or specific certificate to become a journalist. However, everyone seems to consider it reasonable for journalists to work overtime. People think that they should work day and night and night and day, and no one expects journalists' work will be a nine-to-five job. The overtime work of journalists is similar to the case of firemen. Earlier on, Mr Ronny TONG mentioned the hardships and difficulties faced by firemen. Similarly, on all public holidays and festive occasions, journalists have to serve the public in virtually any weather. Needless to say, they have to hustle here and there. If journalists' work is regarded as "brain work", and thus they should not be counted as elementary workers, what about the heavy legwork required in the hustle they undertake, which I said earlier. We journalists have to run around different places. This often reminds me of the state of mind when I was in the trade. According to a survey of the Hong Kong Journalists Association (HKJA), the electronic media in Hong Kong in general work five days a week and rest for two days. Some newspaper publishers will have five days of rest for every three weeks. The weekly work hours and work days sound acceptable, yet many newspaper publishers are still working six days a week. However, it is regarded as natural for reporters to work overtime. The survey of the HKJA indicates that it is the norm for reporters to work an average of 11 to 12 hours daily. No one ever query about this, for this is the reality. They work from 11 am to 11 pm nearly every day. Honourable Members, I would not say that members in the news industry are crowned with a halo. However, journalists are in actuality serving as a bridge between the public and the Government. The most important duty of journalists is to give play to the public's right to know, where the public's right to know is the core value of society. If journalists are stretched to their limits and exhausted every day, just like Mr LEE Cheuk-yan and other Members who wear their "panda eyes" to work every day, how can they serve the people of Hong Kong satisfactorily and energetically?


Should the legislation for standard working hours cover the journalist sector? Is there any difficulty in imposing mandatory regulation? The Government should be given time to examine how to finalize the content. On our part, we should at least make the bosses of the media and the public realize this. Unlike firemen, journalists rarely work on shifts. Once they start working in the morning, they will have to take up the work of that day all by themselves. We hope that the public and the big bosses of the news industry will understand that journalists cannot run around exhaustingly every day. The turnover rate in the journalist sector is high, for the pay of journalists is not quite satisfactory, which is obvious to all. However, this is a separate issue. I would also like to mention the speech by Dr CHIANG Lai-wan. She queried whether, in the calculation of working hours, the time spent by employees on the Internet and playing Facebook be included. This is an extremely typical example of the mean mindset of a big boss. Should the issue be considered from this perspective? Should video cameras be installed in lavatories to prevent employees from playing Facebook or making private calls in the lavatories? It is really difficult to calculate the working hours of the journalist sector. Journalists browsing the Internet are indeed spotting news stories; those making a lot of phone calls are indeed talking with the source of the news. I can hardly imagine any editor or boss would say that "this part is counted as your working hours but not the other part". I so submit. MR VINCENT FANG (in Cantonese): President, though the motion today is about …… (Dr CHIANG Lai-wan indicated a wish to speak) PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr FANG, please hold on. Dr CHIANG Lai-wan, what is your point? DR CHIANG LAI-WAN (in Cantonese): President, I must make a clarification, for a number of Members have ……


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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr CHIANG, please be seated first. Regarding Members' requests for making clarifications, stringent requirements are laid down in this Council, for we do not want clarifications to be turned into extended debates. Members all understand that after a Member has spoken, it is certain that other Members may not totally agree with his views, and these Members will then respond, refute or make criticisms. For the Member who has spoken earlier, he may interpret this as a result of misunderstanding of his views, otherwise Members speaking after him would not have criticized him. However, if a Member considers any mention of him by Members speaking after him is unfair to him and he has to rise to make a clarification, then the rule stipulating that a Member can only speak once in a debate on motion under the Rules of Procedure will be reduced to naught. Hence, I will not allow Members to casually exercise this right to request to make a clarification. Dr CHIANG, I know that other comrades from your political party will have the opportunity to speak later, so the most suitable approach is to let them respond to the criticisms or views made by other Members about you. I would like to remind Members that in this debate session, each Member can only speak once. Mr FANG, please continue. MR VINCENT FANG (in Cantonese): President, although today's motion is about the regulation of working hours through legislation, I have to start my speech with talking about the legislation on minimum wage. I wish to discuss from various perspectives whether it is appropriate to regulate human resources through such a hardline approach as legislation. Since the enactment of legislation on minimum wage, I have met many chambers of commerce and voters in the wholesale and retail sector, and even kaifong and wage earners like hawkers and taxi drivers. They are basically averse to minimum wage. For the employers, they are averse to it and the reasons are understandable. But for many wage earners, especially those at the grassroots who work diligently, and small business owners, they are the victims of minimum wage because the minimum wage system has simply twisted the employees' mentality. For those who are less capable or their attitude toward work is poor, they can get the minimum wage without much effort due to the


minimum wage system. As a result, they have no motivation at all. However, for those who are always hard-working and dedicated, they can only earn the same wage or just a slightly higher salary although their workload has been increasing. So, they complained that they had better adopt the same attitude as their colleagues. However, as they cannot accept it, they lament that those who are capable will work like an ant while those who are incapable will enjoy less workload. Such an unhealthy mindset is worsening. Small business owners have to get themselves involved in work. Although they can hire staff, most of them say that it is difficult to recruit hands. In fact, the working hours of small business owners are longer than that of their employees, not to mention the situation after the prescription of standard working hours. These can be said to be the responses of hundreds of thousands of small businesses in the territory to today's motion. The invariant principle of the human resources market in Hong Kong is that the hard-working ones earn more money and the capable ones get promoted. This is also the drive that spurs wage earners to strive for continuous improvement. For those who are less capable or incompetent, they have to accept lower salaries, or else they have to enhance themselves, improve their attitude at work or make up for their lack of skill by industry. This is also the main reason why the GDP per capita of Hong Kong has been rising. This is definitely not due to any protectionist policy. In some Asian countries near Hong Kong, the working hours of certain job types are really long. I believe the media industry mentioned by Ms Claudia MO is one of such industries. Members of the media industry have to work from morning till night. The wholesale and retail sector to which I belong is no exception. They have to work longer hours especially before the New Year or on festival occasions. However, as we all know, members of the retail sector do not work from the moment they arrive at shops till off duty. Their workload may not be great after the lunch hour when customers are fewer. If legislation regulating working hours is really enacted, we may have to adopt a shift system and the catering industry may have to set up a "fixed on and down times" system. However, as most of the industries in the retail sector adopt a commission system, once a shift system or the system of "fixed on and down times" is adopted, the employees' incomes may be adversely affected. Thus technically, it is very difficult to implement such a system.


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Besides, we all know that Hong Kong people are very diligent. Employees working shifts will make use of their rest time to take up some part-time jobs. Basically, they do not take any break. If the abovementioned system is implemented, their performance in their main job may be adversely affected. In that case, what should the employers do? Should it be stipulated in their employment contracts that they cannot take up part-time jobs? In that case, labour relations will deteriorate further, or the number of self-employed persons will increase significantly, and the labour market will see a major reshuffle of employees as in the situation after the enactment of legislation on minimum wage. The situation of some industries with a serious shortage of manpower will be further deteriorating. Wage earners in general are very clever, evident in the fact that many workers have changed to the security services industry after the enactment of legislation on minimum wage. Meanwhile, no one will apply for jobs which are relatively hard. Therefore, I really do not see why we should regulate working hours by way of legislation. On economic development, President, the Government has repeatedly emphasized the adoption of a policy of positive non-intervention. To put it nicely, it means "you do your business at your own risk". However, why does the Government impose so many constraints on the value of human resources? Though we have encountered so many problems in staff recruitment and job mismatch, why does the Government not offer any assistance to us? President, in my opinion, Hong Kong is in such a situation that no policy can be implemented regardless of who is the leader. The people only know to ask for a larger environment for living, bigger space between buildings and more greening of leisure areas. While the construction of screen-like buildings is opposed, they request the conservation of old buildings, meaning that these buildings cannot be demolished, in addition to the objection of opening up rural areas for development. However, may I ask where we can find lands to meet the needs of Hong Kong people? While the high land price policy is blamed, they request continuous enhancement of welfare by the Government. Where does the money come from? While criticizing the large consortia for monopolization of the market, they request the Government to raise various thresholds for business operation. May I ask who dare to start up a new business? If everyone is


working as an employee instead of being the boss, where can we find employment opportunities? Therefore, I and the retail sector as well as many people in the business community oppose today's motion and all the amendments because there is no room for amendment. I so submit. Thank you, President. MR TOMMY CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I have consulted many members of the industry of their latest views regarding legislation on regulating working hours. In an undersigned coincidence, they used such adjectives as "disastrous" and "doomed" to describe the issue. One of them even said that the regulation of working hours would be the first among 10 most horrifying policies for the catering industry. This is readily comprehensible. Catering industry employees normally work more than 10 hours a day. If their daily working hours are reduced from 12 to eight and the hourly wage for overtime work is set at 1.5 times, a rough calculation shows that for an average employee with a monthly salary of $11,000, the payroll cost alone can rise by 12%. In addition, logistics personnel and managerial staff working in the office will all be affected. The increase in payroll cost will definitely be much more serious than the repercussions of minimum wage. However, according to the industry's close-to-market assessment, there is an even more serious problem, namely, the current serious shortage of labour. In other words, the labour force is simply insufficient to fill the extensive job vacancies arising from the introduction of standard working hours. Everybody knows that the existing labour shortage in the catering industry is most critical with an average vacancy rate of 13%. Once the maximum number of working hours is regulated, the industry has to employ additional workers to cover the discrepant hours, thereby adding fuel to the flames of labour shortage. This is not a problem unique to the catering industry. Other industries including medical services and accounting are also facing a similar dilemma. A recent survey conducted by the University of Hong Kong shows that the working population in Hong Kong will constantly decline. Maybe we should think about


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this more deeply: if the catering industry has to use overtime pay to resolve the problem of extreme difficulty in recruitment, the employees ultimately still have to work overtime. In such case, how can we achieve the ultimate goal of standard working hours, that is, reducing employees' working hours so that they can have more time to enjoy their family life? To introduce standard working hours at this moment is basically meaningless. If we disregard the fact and force through the introduction of standard working hours, it is no different from forcing the industry to pay the overtime wages, hence increasing their operational costs. This is total disregard for the difficulties faced by the industry. Should this be forced upon the industry, how can the business sector have any confidence in investing in Hong Kong? This analysis is based on the assumption that Hong Kong economy will continue to flourish. Once our economy turns bad as a result of the external factors while we have to implement standard working hours, we may have to fac

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OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS Thursday, 18 October 2012 ... · LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 18 October...

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