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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Official - Subject to Final Review IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x DAVID BOBBY, WARDEN, : Petitioner : v. : No. 08-598 MICHAEL BIES. : - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x Washington, D.C. Monday, April 27, 2009 The above-entitled matter came on for oral argument before the Supreme Court of the United States at 11:02 a.m. APPEARANCES: BENJAMIN C. MIZER, ESQ., Solicitor General, Columbus, Ohio; on behalf of the Petitioner. JOHN H. BLUME, ESQ., Ithaca, N.Y.; on behalf of the Respondent. 1 Alderson Reporting Company
Transcript

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IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

DAVID BOBBY WARDEN

Petitioner

v No 08-598

MICHAEL BIES

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

Washington DC

Monday April 27 2009

The above-entitled matter came on for oral

argument before the Supreme Court of the United States

at 1102 am

APPEARANCES

BENJAMIN C MIZER ESQ Solicitor General Columbus

Ohio on behalf of the Petitioner

JOHN H BLUME ESQ Ithaca NY on behalf of the

Respondent

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C O N T E N T S

ORAL ARGUMENT OF PAGE

BENJAMIN C MIZER ESQ

On behalf of the Petitioner 3

JOHN H BLUME ESQ

On behalf of the Respondent 19

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF

BENJAMIN C MIZER ESQ

On behalf of the Petitioner 42

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P R O C E E D I N G S

(1102 am)

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS We will hear

argument next in Bobby versus Bies Mr Mizer

ORAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER Mr Chief Justice and may it

please the Court

Three separate lines of double jeopardy

analysis lead independently to the conclusion that the

Double Jeopardy Clause commits the Ohio postconviction

court to hold a hearing to determine whether Mr Bies is

mentally retarded for purposes of Atkins

First there has been no acquittal in this

case Second there is no successive jeopardy and

third even if collateral estoppel analysis applies

under Ashe versus Swenson the Atkins issue has not

actually and necessarily been decided Each of these

factors shows that the Ohio courts decision to go

forward with the Atkins hearing was reasonable and this

Court therefore should consistent with AEDPA give the

Ohio courts their first chance to adjudicate Mr Biess

Atkins claim

Much of the dispute in this case centers on

the parties disagreement over the meaning of Ashe

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versus Swenson and its application But Mr Bies cannot

benefit from Ashe because Ashe -- the Ashe collateral

estoppel rule only operates to benefit defendants who

have in hand an earlier acquittal and Mr Bies has

never been acquitted of the death penalty in any sense

of the word

This Court beginning in Bullington and

extending through Sattazahn has defined an acquittal

in a death penalty context as a finding by the sentencer

that the death -- that the sentence of death is

warranted in a particular case And the -- the jury and

the trial judge in this case agreed that death was

warranted and in fact the Ohio Supreme Court and

every reviewing court has agreed that death was

warranted

JUSTICE GINSBURG But they all agreed that

he was mentally retarded and that was a mitigator

They all agreed to that But assuming youre right on

issue preclusion what more -- the State says yes we

recognize mental retardation means you cant

administer the death penalty But what would the State

show at an Atkins hearing that is not already in the

record of this case I mean why do it again

MR MIZER The reason to do it again Your

Honor is because the -- the standard set forth by the

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Ohio Supreme Court in Lott when it was implementing this

Courts decision in Atkins contained three definitions

-- three elements of the Atkins definition of the

definition of mental retardation And those three

elements were not carefully demonstrated by Dr Winter

And in fact the -- the record here -- the Ohio

post-conviction court has concluded -- doesnt suffice

to make the post-Atkins Lott determination

The -- at pages 101a to 104a of the Petition

Appendix the State postconviction court looks at all

the evidence including Dr Winters testimony and says

that there needs to be a hearing where experts will be

called in order to determine whether Mr Bies not only

suffers from significant intellectual limitations which

includes IQ but there is conflicting IQ evidence in the

record It also includes findings that he suffers from

substantial limitations in adaptive skills the skills

needed for daily life which Dr Winter never

specifically spoke about She spoke only about IQ when

she was talking about mental retardation

JUSTICE KENNEDY I dont want to take you

too far outside the record and you can come back to it

but I -- I just have this question Suppose that in a

jury case the jury -- pre-Atkins the jury says we find

that the defendant has a 65 IQ but that in light of the

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heinous nature of the offense this is not a mitigating

factor and that he should be sentenced to death

In a subsequent Atkins proceeding can the

jury finding with reference to the IQ be conclusive

MR MIZER No it cannot

JUSTICE KENNEDY Or must that be reopened

MR MIZER It can Your Honor for two

reasons

JUSTICE KENNEDY It can -- can be reopened

MR MIZER It can be Yes Im sorry It

cant be preclusive It can be reopened for two

reasons one relating to the definition of mental

retardation post-Atkins and the other relating to the

different issues

First with respect to the definition the

Ohio Supreme Court has made clear in Lott that IQ is not

enough to determine mental retardation In fact the --

the clinicians and the American Association of Mental

Retardation say that IQ is not enough particularly in a

borderline case where IQ is close to the line And

there you need to look very carefully at adaptive

skills Moreover --

JUSTICE KENNEDY But could the -- could the

defendant argue the -- that -- the accused argue that at

least as to the finding of the 65 IQ that that is a

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given

MR MIZER And --

JUSTICE KENNEDY And that that issue ie

the level of IQ cannot be relitigated the number

MR MIZER And the answer to that is no

Your Honor for issue preclusive purposes because the

issue is completely different in the mitigation context

from the post-Atkins context And I think that

difference is highlighted by the difference between

Penry and Atkins Pre-Atkins what the sentencer was

talking about the jury and then the Ohio Supreme Court

when it affirmed was what this Court told it to talk

about in Penry

It was talking about mental retardation as a

mitigating factor and the State of Ohio and the Ohio

courts had to know the definition of mental

retardation pre-Atkins In fact I think if there had

been a definition and if the courts had excluded

evidence from the jury that didnt rise to a certain

level of severity then we would have run into a -- a

post -- a Penry and Tennard problem And so all of the

evidence was allowed in and it was treated as

mitigating

And so what the Ohio Supreme Court was doing

was what Penry told it to do Considering mitigating

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evidence of mental retardation But post-Atkins the

inquiries are different because Atkins effectively

constitutionalized a clinical judgment in making -- in

defining a categorical bar on executing the mentally

retarded

And so post-Atkins it is necessary to be

very careful about the clinical judgment and this

record does not suffice for that clinical judgment And

I think it -- think it does not behoove either party to

suggest that the record --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well when you say the

clinical judgment you mean the specific finding of a

65 IQ

MR MIZER The -- the clinical judgment

that I refer to Your Honor is that required by -- by

Lott It looks not only at IQ but also at the adaptive

skills limitation

JUSTICE SOUTER Okay I grant you that

under -- under the earlier case the 65 IQ was not

dispositive and I mean that was the -- the case in

Justice Kennedys hypothetical But it was necessary

under the early case to come to a determination of what

the IQ was even though that determination was not

dispositive of the result And because it was necessary

to come to a determination why shouldnt there be a

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preclusion

MR MIZER Because Your Honor I think

there are two different meanings of necessary It was

-- it was necessary in the sense that it had to be done

but it wasnt necessary in the issue preclusive offense

because it -- it was --

JUSTICE SOUTER It wasnt necessary to

reach that particular -- in other words the

determination of 65 was not necessary to reach the

conclusion that they reached

MR MIZER Correct

JUSTICE SOUTER And you -- you are saying

the very fact that it was not dispositive of the result

means that it cannot be preclusive now

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor

JUSTICE SOUTER Okay

MR MIZER And -- and --

JUSTICE GINSBURG May I ask how it worked

pre-Atkins when mental retardation was a mitigator We

are told that the appellate courts independently

reviewed We have a finding at the trial level that

yes there is a mitigator mental retardation but it

doesnt overcome the aggravator so the jury comes in

with a death sentence

Then at the appellate level is there a

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continuing adversary contest about whether retardation

exists and therefore is a mitigator or is it just the

-- the judge the appellate judge looking over the

record that has been made at trial

MR MIZER The -- the appellate courts

engaged in a de novo record and new -- new evidence

doesnt come into the record on direct review But

there is still argument -- the parties are still in an

adversarial posture

JUSTICE GINSBURG So -- so that the

prosecutor could still argue that was unreasonable for

them to find mental retardation so there shouldnt be

that mitigator

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor but

there wasnt at the time a -- a great deal of incentive

to litigate that question because the Ohio Supreme Court

had said that mental retardation only merited some

weight in mitigation And in fact the -- the

appellate briefs on direct review are in the Joint

Appendix and -- excerpts of those briefs And Mr Bies

himself on direct review didnt vigorously argue his

mental retardation evidence In fact he said that the

arguably in his words the most persuasive

mitigating evidence was his lack of a prior record and

his lack of prior violent history

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And so none of the parties thought that

mental retardation in 1992 through 1996 was very

persuasive because the courts didnt treat it and the

jury didnt treat it as very persuasive Perhaps for the

reasons that this Court underscored in Atkins where the

Court said that as it had said in Penry that mental

retardation evidence presented to a jury in mitigation

could be a two-edged sword because some jurors might

perceive and the prosecutor might argue that that

evidence went to future dangerousness and therefore the

-- the State of Ohio argued that the mental retardation

evidence here was simply not persuasive and it was

outweighed by the -- the aggravating factors that the

jury had found Atkins told the --

JUSTICE STEVENS May I interrupt right

there Mr Mizer Is it fair to interpret the jurys

decision to impose the death penalty as having found

that he was not mentally retarded and therefore was not

a mitigating factor or that even though he was -- a

mitigating factor the aggravating factors outweighed

that factor

MR MIZER I think Your Honor that its

fairest and the record thats easiest to go by is what

the Ohio Supreme Court said because the jury didnt

make any specific remarks about mental retardation as a

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mitigator the Ohio Supreme Court did

But the -- the jurys verdict and then the

Ohio Supreme Courts affirmance should best be read as a

determination that the aggravating factors outweigh the

mitigating factors beyond a reasonable doubt and that

mental retardation was one of those mitigating factors

But it should not be read as a mini-verdict on the

existence of or the question of whether Mr Bies is

mentally retarded Because --

JUSTICE GINSBURG If they didnt make a

finding on mental retardation how -- how could the

appellate court determine that it was a mitigator but

overwhelmed by the aggravating -- what did the judge

charge the jury about mitigators and aggravators

MR MIZER The judge charged the jury that

-- first of all Your Honor the mitigating evidence

introduced by Mr Bies was not extensive He -- he

introduced an unsworn statement by himself and then Dr

Winter testified and that was the extent of the case in

mitigation So the jury was charged with the various

statutory mitigating factors in Ohio which is found in

Ohio Revised Code 292904

The mental retardation evidence was relevant

under two of those mitigating statutory factors one

factor 3 which went to mental disease or defect and

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then the catch-all factor 7 But the -- but I think

Poland helps to illuminate what the -- not only what the

jury was doing but also what the Ohio Supreme Court was

doing when it --

JUSTICE GINSBURG First go back to the

jury How do we know that the jury found mental

retardation as a mitigator

MR MIZER We dont Your Honor All that

we know is that the jury determined that the aggravating

factors outweighed the mitigators beyond a reasonable

doubt What we do know and what the Sixth Circuit hung

its hat on was the statement by the Ohio Supreme Court

on direct review that Mr Biess mental retardation

merits weight in mitigation

Poland explains that that -- that statement

by the Ohio Supreme Court should not be treated as a

mini-verdict on the mitigating factor but instead it

should be read as an Eighth Amendment-required marking

of the guidepost the very guidepost that this Court in

Penry said must be marked the relevance of mitigating

evidence of mental retardation

But -- but Poland says its wrong to think

of that marking of that Eighth Amendment guidepost as a

mini-verdict on mental retardation and instead it

should just be thought of as one of the factors that was

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bounding the discretion of the sentencer And so Poland

instructs that Mr Bies and the Sixth Circuit are wrong

to think of mental retardation as actually having been

found in some sense that affords preclusive effect

because instead it was just an Eighth Amendment

balancing

And instead what Atkins tells us is that the

State of Ohio just as the States were given the

opportunity after Ford v Wainwright in the insanity

context should be given the opportunity for the very

first time in this case to implement Atkins to

determine given clinical expert judgment whether or

not Mr Bies is in fact mentally retarded under the

three-part --

JUSTICE BREYER I understand the argument

that the issues are not quite the same that the Atkins

issue of mental retardation is not quite the same as the

issue that was litigated Lets try and get that out of

the case I think thats where Justice Kennedy was

going

Suppose it was a gun case and the Supreme

Court originally thought you could convict people who

sell drugs of simple possession of a gun Theres a

finding because its a bench trial that he simply

possessed but did not otherwise use the gun Then the

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Supreme Court holds that that isnt enough under the

statute So now the State wants to argue because the

proceeding on appeal or whatever is still going on we

want a second shot at this we want to show he did more

than simply possess Is the State bound by what it

previously lost on or can the State -- can he get a

second shot

MR MIZER The answer is that the State is

not bound for two reasons the first relating to issue

preclusion and the second relating to the double

jeopardy doctrine in Ashe On issue preclusion the --

the finding with respect to the gun doesnt carry

preclusive effect because this Court said in --

Sunnen and other cases that when there is a change in

legal consequences that change is enough to prevent the

operation of preclusive rules

But on the double jeopardy doctrine --

JUSTICE BREYER Im not -- Im not going to

go into double jeopardy I dont think necessarily that

its double jeopardy that -- that is relevant here But

I have a -- have you run into this in a different

context They wouldnt use the word double jeopardy

It would be some kind of due process problem Maybe

there isnt a problem Have you run in your research to

anything like what I described

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MR MIZER No Your Honor because it is

important to remember that this is -- this is a double

jeopardy case because of Ashe and because this is in

Federal habeas

With respect to your question about due

process or -- or other rules aside from due process

its possible that the State could have more expansive

common law or State law interpretations of the

collateral estoppel rules and maybe those would benefit

the defendant This Court in -- in the Hoag case

declined to use due process to incorporate collateral

estoppel rules constitutionally So in your case the

defendant would only be left with the hope that the

State would have more expansive collateral estoppel

rules

But to return to Ashe the defendant here is

claiming that he is entitled to a constitutionalized

version of collateral estoppel because of Ashe but hes

not entitled to that protection because Ashe applies

only where a defendant has previously been acquitted

and he has not

It also applies only in a case where the

defendant is facing a successive jeopardy of some sort

Now Mr Biess sentence is -- is surely at issue in

this case but its at issue in the sense that it would

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be at issue in say a direct appeal Its only --

there has only been one prosecution The State has only

taken one crack at convicting him or imposing a

sentence and that one sentence is whats at issue here

And so there is not anything successive

about this case and so the Double Jeopardy Clause

either through the put-in-jeopardy text or through the

acquittal requirement simply has nothing to offer Mr

Bies in the way of assistance

JUSTICE ALITO Could I ask you about --

about exhaustion What should we do about exhaustion

here I take it you dont -- youre not waiving

exhaustion

MR MIZER Your Honor were not contending

that the Ashe claim is unexhausted We agree that

thats exhausted because in the Ohio courts it is not

permissible to take an interlocutory appeal when a

double jeopardy claim has been denied as it was in this

case

And so we are fine with the Sixth Circuit

precedent that holds that in that case the Federal

courts can act in habeas to prevent exposure to a double

jeopardy We simply maintain that there is no second

jeopardy here But the Atkins claim itself is

unexhausted and the Federal magistrate that first dealt

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

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41 21112013 2110 40325 4218 winner 211719 2254(d)(1) 4314vigorously237 253 268 436 221 261025 2254(d)(2) 1919

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

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C O N T E N T S

ORAL ARGUMENT OF PAGE

BENJAMIN C MIZER ESQ

On behalf of the Petitioner 3

JOHN H BLUME ESQ

On behalf of the Respondent 19

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF

BENJAMIN C MIZER ESQ

On behalf of the Petitioner 42

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P R O C E E D I N G S

(1102 am)

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS We will hear

argument next in Bobby versus Bies Mr Mizer

ORAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER Mr Chief Justice and may it

please the Court

Three separate lines of double jeopardy

analysis lead independently to the conclusion that the

Double Jeopardy Clause commits the Ohio postconviction

court to hold a hearing to determine whether Mr Bies is

mentally retarded for purposes of Atkins

First there has been no acquittal in this

case Second there is no successive jeopardy and

third even if collateral estoppel analysis applies

under Ashe versus Swenson the Atkins issue has not

actually and necessarily been decided Each of these

factors shows that the Ohio courts decision to go

forward with the Atkins hearing was reasonable and this

Court therefore should consistent with AEDPA give the

Ohio courts their first chance to adjudicate Mr Biess

Atkins claim

Much of the dispute in this case centers on

the parties disagreement over the meaning of Ashe

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versus Swenson and its application But Mr Bies cannot

benefit from Ashe because Ashe -- the Ashe collateral

estoppel rule only operates to benefit defendants who

have in hand an earlier acquittal and Mr Bies has

never been acquitted of the death penalty in any sense

of the word

This Court beginning in Bullington and

extending through Sattazahn has defined an acquittal

in a death penalty context as a finding by the sentencer

that the death -- that the sentence of death is

warranted in a particular case And the -- the jury and

the trial judge in this case agreed that death was

warranted and in fact the Ohio Supreme Court and

every reviewing court has agreed that death was

warranted

JUSTICE GINSBURG But they all agreed that

he was mentally retarded and that was a mitigator

They all agreed to that But assuming youre right on

issue preclusion what more -- the State says yes we

recognize mental retardation means you cant

administer the death penalty But what would the State

show at an Atkins hearing that is not already in the

record of this case I mean why do it again

MR MIZER The reason to do it again Your

Honor is because the -- the standard set forth by the

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Ohio Supreme Court in Lott when it was implementing this

Courts decision in Atkins contained three definitions

-- three elements of the Atkins definition of the

definition of mental retardation And those three

elements were not carefully demonstrated by Dr Winter

And in fact the -- the record here -- the Ohio

post-conviction court has concluded -- doesnt suffice

to make the post-Atkins Lott determination

The -- at pages 101a to 104a of the Petition

Appendix the State postconviction court looks at all

the evidence including Dr Winters testimony and says

that there needs to be a hearing where experts will be

called in order to determine whether Mr Bies not only

suffers from significant intellectual limitations which

includes IQ but there is conflicting IQ evidence in the

record It also includes findings that he suffers from

substantial limitations in adaptive skills the skills

needed for daily life which Dr Winter never

specifically spoke about She spoke only about IQ when

she was talking about mental retardation

JUSTICE KENNEDY I dont want to take you

too far outside the record and you can come back to it

but I -- I just have this question Suppose that in a

jury case the jury -- pre-Atkins the jury says we find

that the defendant has a 65 IQ but that in light of the

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heinous nature of the offense this is not a mitigating

factor and that he should be sentenced to death

In a subsequent Atkins proceeding can the

jury finding with reference to the IQ be conclusive

MR MIZER No it cannot

JUSTICE KENNEDY Or must that be reopened

MR MIZER It can Your Honor for two

reasons

JUSTICE KENNEDY It can -- can be reopened

MR MIZER It can be Yes Im sorry It

cant be preclusive It can be reopened for two

reasons one relating to the definition of mental

retardation post-Atkins and the other relating to the

different issues

First with respect to the definition the

Ohio Supreme Court has made clear in Lott that IQ is not

enough to determine mental retardation In fact the --

the clinicians and the American Association of Mental

Retardation say that IQ is not enough particularly in a

borderline case where IQ is close to the line And

there you need to look very carefully at adaptive

skills Moreover --

JUSTICE KENNEDY But could the -- could the

defendant argue the -- that -- the accused argue that at

least as to the finding of the 65 IQ that that is a

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given

MR MIZER And --

JUSTICE KENNEDY And that that issue ie

the level of IQ cannot be relitigated the number

MR MIZER And the answer to that is no

Your Honor for issue preclusive purposes because the

issue is completely different in the mitigation context

from the post-Atkins context And I think that

difference is highlighted by the difference between

Penry and Atkins Pre-Atkins what the sentencer was

talking about the jury and then the Ohio Supreme Court

when it affirmed was what this Court told it to talk

about in Penry

It was talking about mental retardation as a

mitigating factor and the State of Ohio and the Ohio

courts had to know the definition of mental

retardation pre-Atkins In fact I think if there had

been a definition and if the courts had excluded

evidence from the jury that didnt rise to a certain

level of severity then we would have run into a -- a

post -- a Penry and Tennard problem And so all of the

evidence was allowed in and it was treated as

mitigating

And so what the Ohio Supreme Court was doing

was what Penry told it to do Considering mitigating

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evidence of mental retardation But post-Atkins the

inquiries are different because Atkins effectively

constitutionalized a clinical judgment in making -- in

defining a categorical bar on executing the mentally

retarded

And so post-Atkins it is necessary to be

very careful about the clinical judgment and this

record does not suffice for that clinical judgment And

I think it -- think it does not behoove either party to

suggest that the record --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well when you say the

clinical judgment you mean the specific finding of a

65 IQ

MR MIZER The -- the clinical judgment

that I refer to Your Honor is that required by -- by

Lott It looks not only at IQ but also at the adaptive

skills limitation

JUSTICE SOUTER Okay I grant you that

under -- under the earlier case the 65 IQ was not

dispositive and I mean that was the -- the case in

Justice Kennedys hypothetical But it was necessary

under the early case to come to a determination of what

the IQ was even though that determination was not

dispositive of the result And because it was necessary

to come to a determination why shouldnt there be a

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preclusion

MR MIZER Because Your Honor I think

there are two different meanings of necessary It was

-- it was necessary in the sense that it had to be done

but it wasnt necessary in the issue preclusive offense

because it -- it was --

JUSTICE SOUTER It wasnt necessary to

reach that particular -- in other words the

determination of 65 was not necessary to reach the

conclusion that they reached

MR MIZER Correct

JUSTICE SOUTER And you -- you are saying

the very fact that it was not dispositive of the result

means that it cannot be preclusive now

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor

JUSTICE SOUTER Okay

MR MIZER And -- and --

JUSTICE GINSBURG May I ask how it worked

pre-Atkins when mental retardation was a mitigator We

are told that the appellate courts independently

reviewed We have a finding at the trial level that

yes there is a mitigator mental retardation but it

doesnt overcome the aggravator so the jury comes in

with a death sentence

Then at the appellate level is there a

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continuing adversary contest about whether retardation

exists and therefore is a mitigator or is it just the

-- the judge the appellate judge looking over the

record that has been made at trial

MR MIZER The -- the appellate courts

engaged in a de novo record and new -- new evidence

doesnt come into the record on direct review But

there is still argument -- the parties are still in an

adversarial posture

JUSTICE GINSBURG So -- so that the

prosecutor could still argue that was unreasonable for

them to find mental retardation so there shouldnt be

that mitigator

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor but

there wasnt at the time a -- a great deal of incentive

to litigate that question because the Ohio Supreme Court

had said that mental retardation only merited some

weight in mitigation And in fact the -- the

appellate briefs on direct review are in the Joint

Appendix and -- excerpts of those briefs And Mr Bies

himself on direct review didnt vigorously argue his

mental retardation evidence In fact he said that the

arguably in his words the most persuasive

mitigating evidence was his lack of a prior record and

his lack of prior violent history

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And so none of the parties thought that

mental retardation in 1992 through 1996 was very

persuasive because the courts didnt treat it and the

jury didnt treat it as very persuasive Perhaps for the

reasons that this Court underscored in Atkins where the

Court said that as it had said in Penry that mental

retardation evidence presented to a jury in mitigation

could be a two-edged sword because some jurors might

perceive and the prosecutor might argue that that

evidence went to future dangerousness and therefore the

-- the State of Ohio argued that the mental retardation

evidence here was simply not persuasive and it was

outweighed by the -- the aggravating factors that the

jury had found Atkins told the --

JUSTICE STEVENS May I interrupt right

there Mr Mizer Is it fair to interpret the jurys

decision to impose the death penalty as having found

that he was not mentally retarded and therefore was not

a mitigating factor or that even though he was -- a

mitigating factor the aggravating factors outweighed

that factor

MR MIZER I think Your Honor that its

fairest and the record thats easiest to go by is what

the Ohio Supreme Court said because the jury didnt

make any specific remarks about mental retardation as a

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mitigator the Ohio Supreme Court did

But the -- the jurys verdict and then the

Ohio Supreme Courts affirmance should best be read as a

determination that the aggravating factors outweigh the

mitigating factors beyond a reasonable doubt and that

mental retardation was one of those mitigating factors

But it should not be read as a mini-verdict on the

existence of or the question of whether Mr Bies is

mentally retarded Because --

JUSTICE GINSBURG If they didnt make a

finding on mental retardation how -- how could the

appellate court determine that it was a mitigator but

overwhelmed by the aggravating -- what did the judge

charge the jury about mitigators and aggravators

MR MIZER The judge charged the jury that

-- first of all Your Honor the mitigating evidence

introduced by Mr Bies was not extensive He -- he

introduced an unsworn statement by himself and then Dr

Winter testified and that was the extent of the case in

mitigation So the jury was charged with the various

statutory mitigating factors in Ohio which is found in

Ohio Revised Code 292904

The mental retardation evidence was relevant

under two of those mitigating statutory factors one

factor 3 which went to mental disease or defect and

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then the catch-all factor 7 But the -- but I think

Poland helps to illuminate what the -- not only what the

jury was doing but also what the Ohio Supreme Court was

doing when it --

JUSTICE GINSBURG First go back to the

jury How do we know that the jury found mental

retardation as a mitigator

MR MIZER We dont Your Honor All that

we know is that the jury determined that the aggravating

factors outweighed the mitigators beyond a reasonable

doubt What we do know and what the Sixth Circuit hung

its hat on was the statement by the Ohio Supreme Court

on direct review that Mr Biess mental retardation

merits weight in mitigation

Poland explains that that -- that statement

by the Ohio Supreme Court should not be treated as a

mini-verdict on the mitigating factor but instead it

should be read as an Eighth Amendment-required marking

of the guidepost the very guidepost that this Court in

Penry said must be marked the relevance of mitigating

evidence of mental retardation

But -- but Poland says its wrong to think

of that marking of that Eighth Amendment guidepost as a

mini-verdict on mental retardation and instead it

should just be thought of as one of the factors that was

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bounding the discretion of the sentencer And so Poland

instructs that Mr Bies and the Sixth Circuit are wrong

to think of mental retardation as actually having been

found in some sense that affords preclusive effect

because instead it was just an Eighth Amendment

balancing

And instead what Atkins tells us is that the

State of Ohio just as the States were given the

opportunity after Ford v Wainwright in the insanity

context should be given the opportunity for the very

first time in this case to implement Atkins to

determine given clinical expert judgment whether or

not Mr Bies is in fact mentally retarded under the

three-part --

JUSTICE BREYER I understand the argument

that the issues are not quite the same that the Atkins

issue of mental retardation is not quite the same as the

issue that was litigated Lets try and get that out of

the case I think thats where Justice Kennedy was

going

Suppose it was a gun case and the Supreme

Court originally thought you could convict people who

sell drugs of simple possession of a gun Theres a

finding because its a bench trial that he simply

possessed but did not otherwise use the gun Then the

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Supreme Court holds that that isnt enough under the

statute So now the State wants to argue because the

proceeding on appeal or whatever is still going on we

want a second shot at this we want to show he did more

than simply possess Is the State bound by what it

previously lost on or can the State -- can he get a

second shot

MR MIZER The answer is that the State is

not bound for two reasons the first relating to issue

preclusion and the second relating to the double

jeopardy doctrine in Ashe On issue preclusion the --

the finding with respect to the gun doesnt carry

preclusive effect because this Court said in --

Sunnen and other cases that when there is a change in

legal consequences that change is enough to prevent the

operation of preclusive rules

But on the double jeopardy doctrine --

JUSTICE BREYER Im not -- Im not going to

go into double jeopardy I dont think necessarily that

its double jeopardy that -- that is relevant here But

I have a -- have you run into this in a different

context They wouldnt use the word double jeopardy

It would be some kind of due process problem Maybe

there isnt a problem Have you run in your research to

anything like what I described

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MR MIZER No Your Honor because it is

important to remember that this is -- this is a double

jeopardy case because of Ashe and because this is in

Federal habeas

With respect to your question about due

process or -- or other rules aside from due process

its possible that the State could have more expansive

common law or State law interpretations of the

collateral estoppel rules and maybe those would benefit

the defendant This Court in -- in the Hoag case

declined to use due process to incorporate collateral

estoppel rules constitutionally So in your case the

defendant would only be left with the hope that the

State would have more expansive collateral estoppel

rules

But to return to Ashe the defendant here is

claiming that he is entitled to a constitutionalized

version of collateral estoppel because of Ashe but hes

not entitled to that protection because Ashe applies

only where a defendant has previously been acquitted

and he has not

It also applies only in a case where the

defendant is facing a successive jeopardy of some sort

Now Mr Biess sentence is -- is surely at issue in

this case but its at issue in the sense that it would

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be at issue in say a direct appeal Its only --

there has only been one prosecution The State has only

taken one crack at convicting him or imposing a

sentence and that one sentence is whats at issue here

And so there is not anything successive

about this case and so the Double Jeopardy Clause

either through the put-in-jeopardy text or through the

acquittal requirement simply has nothing to offer Mr

Bies in the way of assistance

JUSTICE ALITO Could I ask you about --

about exhaustion What should we do about exhaustion

here I take it you dont -- youre not waiving

exhaustion

MR MIZER Your Honor were not contending

that the Ashe claim is unexhausted We agree that

thats exhausted because in the Ohio courts it is not

permissible to take an interlocutory appeal when a

double jeopardy claim has been denied as it was in this

case

And so we are fine with the Sixth Circuit

precedent that holds that in that case the Federal

courts can act in habeas to prevent exposure to a double

jeopardy We simply maintain that there is no second

jeopardy here But the Atkins claim itself is

unexhausted and the Federal magistrate that first dealt

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

1323 145 227 345 aware 211825 Biess 322276 3021 41820 108 1415 am 113 32 1313 1624act 1722

Amendment-r 1913 31322 459 2319 2925acting 211 1318 3124 32111 358 4217actual 2519 BAmerican 618 382 421218 4318287

B 2417analysis 31016 4222 437 binding 2713adaptive 517 back 522 135261 3924 arguments 2915621 816

182 192announced 4215 Blume 117 25additional 378 271625 40222822 Ashe 31725 42 19121315adequate 195

balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

balancing 1461717 232020 1715 2217 2419 251114adjudicate 322 bar 84 37112720 296 272511 2523 26222administer 421

42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

30124110 aside 166 3011 31515admit 3721 bases 3910appeals 206 asked 3816 3123 321222adopt 4112 basis 1918 2022321 287 3999 33121822adopted 356

2110 35913372 asking 3317 3417 352adversarial 109 3623 394APPEARAN assert 308 36219 3724199

beginning 47114 assistance 179 38917 392adversary 101 behalf 11617appellate 920 Association 618 40817 417AEDPA 321

2469 36925 103519 assume 381 4116affirmance 123 1914 42131212 2310 assumed 304 Bobby 13 34affirmed 712

behoove 89Appendix 510 assuming 418 borderline 620affords 144 believe 37131020 1812 Atkin 201515 3614 4318aggravating

411738922 Atkins 31317 borne 198111320 124 bench 1424applicable 305 32023 422 bound 15591213 139 benefit 423305 523 63 710 bounding 1412613 3615

169application 41 82 11514 brand 3219422 BENJAMIN4024 1471116 3324 345aggravation

115 238 35applied 2816 1724 184 brand-new2312 374 42124310 1979 2011 331718aggravator 923

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Breyer 1415 categorical 84 452 conclusion 310 convict 1422 1518 28421 3711 4219 clearly 2238 910 2223 319 291 313616 categorically 427 2411 373 convicting 173 325 4019 client 3378 conclusions conviction 3821

Breyers 333 category 2220 clinical 8378 1924 3610 4111 brief 4011 centers 324 81214 1412 conclusive 64 correct 91115

4221 certain 719 1922 20488 218 416 1014 2012 briefs 101920 certainly 2022 2022 2113 condition 3617 3115 broad 2017 364 clinicians 618 conduct 2216 counsel 1911 brother 2516 challenge 4012 close 620 conflicting 515 4210 457 Bullington 47 4424 Code 1222 consensus 4118 course 2319 burden 3510 chance 322 collateral 316 consequences court 1112 38 burdens 3510 change 151415 42 1691114 1515 2216 31221 4713

changed 3713 1618 2810 consequential 414 51710C 4021 4218 301215 317 4219 616 71112

C 115 2138 characterizati 3120 consider 2517 724 1016 315 4212 249 2520 Columbus 115 considerations 115624 121

call 3616 charge 1214 combination 2424 1212 13312called 513 charged 1215 321222 considered 131619 1422

401523 1220 combined 2219 1825 15113 1610 capital 301625 Chief 337 299 Considering 181331121 care 251 3518 191115 2912 come 522 822 725 19116 2012 careful 87 2917 302 825 107 258 consistent 321 2067 2114 carefully 55 361120 4210 4423 181416 197 23192021

621 457 comes 923 336 246171720 carry 1512 Circuit 1311 2722 Constitution 2567 2717 case 31524 142 1720 coming 3218 3191219 272123 2811

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

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P R O C E E D I N G S

(1102 am)

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS We will hear

argument next in Bobby versus Bies Mr Mizer

ORAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER Mr Chief Justice and may it

please the Court

Three separate lines of double jeopardy

analysis lead independently to the conclusion that the

Double Jeopardy Clause commits the Ohio postconviction

court to hold a hearing to determine whether Mr Bies is

mentally retarded for purposes of Atkins

First there has been no acquittal in this

case Second there is no successive jeopardy and

third even if collateral estoppel analysis applies

under Ashe versus Swenson the Atkins issue has not

actually and necessarily been decided Each of these

factors shows that the Ohio courts decision to go

forward with the Atkins hearing was reasonable and this

Court therefore should consistent with AEDPA give the

Ohio courts their first chance to adjudicate Mr Biess

Atkins claim

Much of the dispute in this case centers on

the parties disagreement over the meaning of Ashe

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versus Swenson and its application But Mr Bies cannot

benefit from Ashe because Ashe -- the Ashe collateral

estoppel rule only operates to benefit defendants who

have in hand an earlier acquittal and Mr Bies has

never been acquitted of the death penalty in any sense

of the word

This Court beginning in Bullington and

extending through Sattazahn has defined an acquittal

in a death penalty context as a finding by the sentencer

that the death -- that the sentence of death is

warranted in a particular case And the -- the jury and

the trial judge in this case agreed that death was

warranted and in fact the Ohio Supreme Court and

every reviewing court has agreed that death was

warranted

JUSTICE GINSBURG But they all agreed that

he was mentally retarded and that was a mitigator

They all agreed to that But assuming youre right on

issue preclusion what more -- the State says yes we

recognize mental retardation means you cant

administer the death penalty But what would the State

show at an Atkins hearing that is not already in the

record of this case I mean why do it again

MR MIZER The reason to do it again Your

Honor is because the -- the standard set forth by the

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Ohio Supreme Court in Lott when it was implementing this

Courts decision in Atkins contained three definitions

-- three elements of the Atkins definition of the

definition of mental retardation And those three

elements were not carefully demonstrated by Dr Winter

And in fact the -- the record here -- the Ohio

post-conviction court has concluded -- doesnt suffice

to make the post-Atkins Lott determination

The -- at pages 101a to 104a of the Petition

Appendix the State postconviction court looks at all

the evidence including Dr Winters testimony and says

that there needs to be a hearing where experts will be

called in order to determine whether Mr Bies not only

suffers from significant intellectual limitations which

includes IQ but there is conflicting IQ evidence in the

record It also includes findings that he suffers from

substantial limitations in adaptive skills the skills

needed for daily life which Dr Winter never

specifically spoke about She spoke only about IQ when

she was talking about mental retardation

JUSTICE KENNEDY I dont want to take you

too far outside the record and you can come back to it

but I -- I just have this question Suppose that in a

jury case the jury -- pre-Atkins the jury says we find

that the defendant has a 65 IQ but that in light of the

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heinous nature of the offense this is not a mitigating

factor and that he should be sentenced to death

In a subsequent Atkins proceeding can the

jury finding with reference to the IQ be conclusive

MR MIZER No it cannot

JUSTICE KENNEDY Or must that be reopened

MR MIZER It can Your Honor for two

reasons

JUSTICE KENNEDY It can -- can be reopened

MR MIZER It can be Yes Im sorry It

cant be preclusive It can be reopened for two

reasons one relating to the definition of mental

retardation post-Atkins and the other relating to the

different issues

First with respect to the definition the

Ohio Supreme Court has made clear in Lott that IQ is not

enough to determine mental retardation In fact the --

the clinicians and the American Association of Mental

Retardation say that IQ is not enough particularly in a

borderline case where IQ is close to the line And

there you need to look very carefully at adaptive

skills Moreover --

JUSTICE KENNEDY But could the -- could the

defendant argue the -- that -- the accused argue that at

least as to the finding of the 65 IQ that that is a

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given

MR MIZER And --

JUSTICE KENNEDY And that that issue ie

the level of IQ cannot be relitigated the number

MR MIZER And the answer to that is no

Your Honor for issue preclusive purposes because the

issue is completely different in the mitigation context

from the post-Atkins context And I think that

difference is highlighted by the difference between

Penry and Atkins Pre-Atkins what the sentencer was

talking about the jury and then the Ohio Supreme Court

when it affirmed was what this Court told it to talk

about in Penry

It was talking about mental retardation as a

mitigating factor and the State of Ohio and the Ohio

courts had to know the definition of mental

retardation pre-Atkins In fact I think if there had

been a definition and if the courts had excluded

evidence from the jury that didnt rise to a certain

level of severity then we would have run into a -- a

post -- a Penry and Tennard problem And so all of the

evidence was allowed in and it was treated as

mitigating

And so what the Ohio Supreme Court was doing

was what Penry told it to do Considering mitigating

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evidence of mental retardation But post-Atkins the

inquiries are different because Atkins effectively

constitutionalized a clinical judgment in making -- in

defining a categorical bar on executing the mentally

retarded

And so post-Atkins it is necessary to be

very careful about the clinical judgment and this

record does not suffice for that clinical judgment And

I think it -- think it does not behoove either party to

suggest that the record --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well when you say the

clinical judgment you mean the specific finding of a

65 IQ

MR MIZER The -- the clinical judgment

that I refer to Your Honor is that required by -- by

Lott It looks not only at IQ but also at the adaptive

skills limitation

JUSTICE SOUTER Okay I grant you that

under -- under the earlier case the 65 IQ was not

dispositive and I mean that was the -- the case in

Justice Kennedys hypothetical But it was necessary

under the early case to come to a determination of what

the IQ was even though that determination was not

dispositive of the result And because it was necessary

to come to a determination why shouldnt there be a

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preclusion

MR MIZER Because Your Honor I think

there are two different meanings of necessary It was

-- it was necessary in the sense that it had to be done

but it wasnt necessary in the issue preclusive offense

because it -- it was --

JUSTICE SOUTER It wasnt necessary to

reach that particular -- in other words the

determination of 65 was not necessary to reach the

conclusion that they reached

MR MIZER Correct

JUSTICE SOUTER And you -- you are saying

the very fact that it was not dispositive of the result

means that it cannot be preclusive now

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor

JUSTICE SOUTER Okay

MR MIZER And -- and --

JUSTICE GINSBURG May I ask how it worked

pre-Atkins when mental retardation was a mitigator We

are told that the appellate courts independently

reviewed We have a finding at the trial level that

yes there is a mitigator mental retardation but it

doesnt overcome the aggravator so the jury comes in

with a death sentence

Then at the appellate level is there a

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continuing adversary contest about whether retardation

exists and therefore is a mitigator or is it just the

-- the judge the appellate judge looking over the

record that has been made at trial

MR MIZER The -- the appellate courts

engaged in a de novo record and new -- new evidence

doesnt come into the record on direct review But

there is still argument -- the parties are still in an

adversarial posture

JUSTICE GINSBURG So -- so that the

prosecutor could still argue that was unreasonable for

them to find mental retardation so there shouldnt be

that mitigator

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor but

there wasnt at the time a -- a great deal of incentive

to litigate that question because the Ohio Supreme Court

had said that mental retardation only merited some

weight in mitigation And in fact the -- the

appellate briefs on direct review are in the Joint

Appendix and -- excerpts of those briefs And Mr Bies

himself on direct review didnt vigorously argue his

mental retardation evidence In fact he said that the

arguably in his words the most persuasive

mitigating evidence was his lack of a prior record and

his lack of prior violent history

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And so none of the parties thought that

mental retardation in 1992 through 1996 was very

persuasive because the courts didnt treat it and the

jury didnt treat it as very persuasive Perhaps for the

reasons that this Court underscored in Atkins where the

Court said that as it had said in Penry that mental

retardation evidence presented to a jury in mitigation

could be a two-edged sword because some jurors might

perceive and the prosecutor might argue that that

evidence went to future dangerousness and therefore the

-- the State of Ohio argued that the mental retardation

evidence here was simply not persuasive and it was

outweighed by the -- the aggravating factors that the

jury had found Atkins told the --

JUSTICE STEVENS May I interrupt right

there Mr Mizer Is it fair to interpret the jurys

decision to impose the death penalty as having found

that he was not mentally retarded and therefore was not

a mitigating factor or that even though he was -- a

mitigating factor the aggravating factors outweighed

that factor

MR MIZER I think Your Honor that its

fairest and the record thats easiest to go by is what

the Ohio Supreme Court said because the jury didnt

make any specific remarks about mental retardation as a

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mitigator the Ohio Supreme Court did

But the -- the jurys verdict and then the

Ohio Supreme Courts affirmance should best be read as a

determination that the aggravating factors outweigh the

mitigating factors beyond a reasonable doubt and that

mental retardation was one of those mitigating factors

But it should not be read as a mini-verdict on the

existence of or the question of whether Mr Bies is

mentally retarded Because --

JUSTICE GINSBURG If they didnt make a

finding on mental retardation how -- how could the

appellate court determine that it was a mitigator but

overwhelmed by the aggravating -- what did the judge

charge the jury about mitigators and aggravators

MR MIZER The judge charged the jury that

-- first of all Your Honor the mitigating evidence

introduced by Mr Bies was not extensive He -- he

introduced an unsworn statement by himself and then Dr

Winter testified and that was the extent of the case in

mitigation So the jury was charged with the various

statutory mitigating factors in Ohio which is found in

Ohio Revised Code 292904

The mental retardation evidence was relevant

under two of those mitigating statutory factors one

factor 3 which went to mental disease or defect and

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then the catch-all factor 7 But the -- but I think

Poland helps to illuminate what the -- not only what the

jury was doing but also what the Ohio Supreme Court was

doing when it --

JUSTICE GINSBURG First go back to the

jury How do we know that the jury found mental

retardation as a mitigator

MR MIZER We dont Your Honor All that

we know is that the jury determined that the aggravating

factors outweighed the mitigators beyond a reasonable

doubt What we do know and what the Sixth Circuit hung

its hat on was the statement by the Ohio Supreme Court

on direct review that Mr Biess mental retardation

merits weight in mitigation

Poland explains that that -- that statement

by the Ohio Supreme Court should not be treated as a

mini-verdict on the mitigating factor but instead it

should be read as an Eighth Amendment-required marking

of the guidepost the very guidepost that this Court in

Penry said must be marked the relevance of mitigating

evidence of mental retardation

But -- but Poland says its wrong to think

of that marking of that Eighth Amendment guidepost as a

mini-verdict on mental retardation and instead it

should just be thought of as one of the factors that was

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bounding the discretion of the sentencer And so Poland

instructs that Mr Bies and the Sixth Circuit are wrong

to think of mental retardation as actually having been

found in some sense that affords preclusive effect

because instead it was just an Eighth Amendment

balancing

And instead what Atkins tells us is that the

State of Ohio just as the States were given the

opportunity after Ford v Wainwright in the insanity

context should be given the opportunity for the very

first time in this case to implement Atkins to

determine given clinical expert judgment whether or

not Mr Bies is in fact mentally retarded under the

three-part --

JUSTICE BREYER I understand the argument

that the issues are not quite the same that the Atkins

issue of mental retardation is not quite the same as the

issue that was litigated Lets try and get that out of

the case I think thats where Justice Kennedy was

going

Suppose it was a gun case and the Supreme

Court originally thought you could convict people who

sell drugs of simple possession of a gun Theres a

finding because its a bench trial that he simply

possessed but did not otherwise use the gun Then the

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Supreme Court holds that that isnt enough under the

statute So now the State wants to argue because the

proceeding on appeal or whatever is still going on we

want a second shot at this we want to show he did more

than simply possess Is the State bound by what it

previously lost on or can the State -- can he get a

second shot

MR MIZER The answer is that the State is

not bound for two reasons the first relating to issue

preclusion and the second relating to the double

jeopardy doctrine in Ashe On issue preclusion the --

the finding with respect to the gun doesnt carry

preclusive effect because this Court said in --

Sunnen and other cases that when there is a change in

legal consequences that change is enough to prevent the

operation of preclusive rules

But on the double jeopardy doctrine --

JUSTICE BREYER Im not -- Im not going to

go into double jeopardy I dont think necessarily that

its double jeopardy that -- that is relevant here But

I have a -- have you run into this in a different

context They wouldnt use the word double jeopardy

It would be some kind of due process problem Maybe

there isnt a problem Have you run in your research to

anything like what I described

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MR MIZER No Your Honor because it is

important to remember that this is -- this is a double

jeopardy case because of Ashe and because this is in

Federal habeas

With respect to your question about due

process or -- or other rules aside from due process

its possible that the State could have more expansive

common law or State law interpretations of the

collateral estoppel rules and maybe those would benefit

the defendant This Court in -- in the Hoag case

declined to use due process to incorporate collateral

estoppel rules constitutionally So in your case the

defendant would only be left with the hope that the

State would have more expansive collateral estoppel

rules

But to return to Ashe the defendant here is

claiming that he is entitled to a constitutionalized

version of collateral estoppel because of Ashe but hes

not entitled to that protection because Ashe applies

only where a defendant has previously been acquitted

and he has not

It also applies only in a case where the

defendant is facing a successive jeopardy of some sort

Now Mr Biess sentence is -- is surely at issue in

this case but its at issue in the sense that it would

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be at issue in say a direct appeal Its only --

there has only been one prosecution The State has only

taken one crack at convicting him or imposing a

sentence and that one sentence is whats at issue here

And so there is not anything successive

about this case and so the Double Jeopardy Clause

either through the put-in-jeopardy text or through the

acquittal requirement simply has nothing to offer Mr

Bies in the way of assistance

JUSTICE ALITO Could I ask you about --

about exhaustion What should we do about exhaustion

here I take it you dont -- youre not waiving

exhaustion

MR MIZER Your Honor were not contending

that the Ashe claim is unexhausted We agree that

thats exhausted because in the Ohio courts it is not

permissible to take an interlocutory appeal when a

double jeopardy claim has been denied as it was in this

case

And so we are fine with the Sixth Circuit

precedent that holds that in that case the Federal

courts can act in habeas to prevent exposure to a double

jeopardy We simply maintain that there is no second

jeopardy here But the Atkins claim itself is

unexhausted and the Federal magistrate that first dealt

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

1323 145 227 345 aware 211825 Biess 322276 3021 41820 108 1415 am 113 32 1313 1624act 1722

Amendment-r 1913 31322 459 2319 2925acting 211 1318 3124 32111 358 4217actual 2519 BAmerican 618 382 421218 4318287

B 2417analysis 31016 4222 437 binding 2713adaptive 517 back 522 135261 3924 arguments 2915621 816

182 192announced 4215 Blume 117 25additional 378 271625 40222822 Ashe 31725 42 19121315adequate 195

balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

balancing 1461717 232020 1715 2217 2419 251114adjudicate 322 bar 84 37112720 296 272511 2523 26222administer 421

42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

30124110 aside 166 3011 31515admit 3721 bases 3910appeals 206 asked 3816 3123 321222adopt 4112 basis 1918 2022321 287 3999 33121822adopted 356

2110 35913372 asking 3317 3417 352adversarial 109 3623 394APPEARAN assert 308 36219 3724199

beginning 47114 assistance 179 38917 392adversary 101 behalf 11617appellate 920 Association 618 40817 417AEDPA 321

2469 36925 103519 assume 381 4116affirmance 123 1914 42131212 2310 assumed 304 Bobby 13 34affirmed 712

behoove 89Appendix 510 assuming 418 borderline 620affords 144 believe 37131020 1812 Atkin 201515 3614 4318aggravating

411738922 Atkins 31317 borne 198111320 124 bench 1424applicable 305 32023 422 bound 15591213 139 benefit 423305 523 63 710 bounding 1412613 3615

169application 41 82 11514 brand 3219422 BENJAMIN4024 1471116 3324 345aggravation

115 238 35applied 2816 1724 184 brand-new2312 374 42124310 1979 2011 331718aggravator 923

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Breyer 1415 categorical 84 452 conclusion 310 convict 1422 1518 28421 3711 4219 clearly 2238 910 2223 319 291 313616 categorically 427 2411 373 convicting 173 325 4019 client 3378 conclusions conviction 3821

Breyers 333 category 2220 clinical 8378 1924 3610 4111 brief 4011 centers 324 81214 1412 conclusive 64 correct 91115

4221 certain 719 1922 20488 218 416 1014 2012 briefs 101920 certainly 2022 2022 2113 condition 3617 3115 broad 2017 364 clinicians 618 conduct 2216 counsel 1911 brother 2516 challenge 4012 close 620 conflicting 515 4210 457 Bullington 47 4424 Code 1222 consensus 4118 course 2319 burden 3510 chance 322 collateral 316 consequences court 1112 38 burdens 3510 change 151415 42 1691114 1515 2216 31221 4713

changed 3713 1618 2810 consequential 414 51710C 4021 4218 301215 317 4219 616 71112

C 115 2138 characterizati 3120 consider 2517 724 1016 315 4212 249 2520 Columbus 115 considerations 115624 121

call 3616 charge 1214 combination 2424 1212 13312called 513 charged 1215 321222 considered 131619 1422

401523 1220 combined 2219 1825 15113 1610 capital 301625 Chief 337 299 Considering 181331121 care 251 3518 191115 2912 come 522 822 725 19116 2012 careful 87 2917 302 825 107 258 consistent 321 2067 2114 carefully 55 361120 4210 4423 181416 197 23192021

621 457 comes 923 336 246171720 carry 1512 Circuit 1311 2722 Constitution 2567 2717 case 31524 142 1720 coming 3218 3191219 272123 2811

4111223 2111 438 commits 311 3715 4120 2914 3022 524 620 819 456 committed constitutionali 3321 3416 82022 1219 Circuits 435 3523 83 1617 3620 3712614111921 4313 common 168 constitutionally 371923 3810 163101222 circumstances 2920 1612 197 3912 4024 1625 17619 231416 2413 compelling 391 411824 439 1721 18125 2613 422 3615 contained 52 4321 444 1822 1919 claim 323 1715 completely 77 contending 451 21418 231 171824 3711 conceded 3717 1714 courts 322 716 259 2722 3916 4099 3815 4122 contest 101 718 920 105 2824 291 40171818 conception 3657 371 113 1716223110 3358 41782223 2017 contesting 3625 2321 2614 342 35322 422 concerns 254 context 49 778 courts 319 52 366121417 claimed 386 concession 1410 1522 123 1824 4316 45189 claiming 1617 3821 391823 2245 3036 1920 221112

cases 1514 241 clarifying 4324 3925 4010 30161925 2219 3624 26379 2955 clause 311 176 4324 34141423 3712 4020 3015 322 2623 301013 concessions 379 428 4316 3621 376 3114 397 4216 continuing 101 crack 173

catch-all 131 clear 616 402 concluded 57 contrary 286 creates 2213

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credible 2915 3819 411 201620 2425 1522 162 1619 crime 351823 4325 4420 4415 1761822 entitles 3112 crimes 3024 defendants 43 determined 139 3091216 equivalent 296 criminal 225 defendants 1920 203 3113 3220 ESQ 11517 23

2919 3018 2713 2218 248 doubt 125 258 3314 defense 338 2712 1311 276 essence 2215

defined 48 developments Dr 551118 essential 2323 D defining 84 4117 1218 1812 essentially 295

D 31 definition 534 difference 799 1921 204 establishingdaily 518 61215 716 24616 3520 357 2910 3511 dangerousness 718 1922 different 614 drawn 202022 estoppel 316

1110 20481624 77 82 93 drugs 1423 43 1691214DAVID 13 2113 229 1521 258 due 1523 1656 1618 301215de 106 2922 3214 341419 3515 1611 3678 3825 3939deal 1015 3556 432 3613 373 DC 18 391516 426 dealing 216 definitional 407 4418 42152224

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410121421 early 8221817 171 378 evidence 5111562 924 1117 easiest 1123demonstrated 4110 4317 71922 81 218172125 effect 144 1513 55 disagree 4419 1062224222425 236 2210 234denied 1718 disagreement 11710122522 2615 3215Denno 317 325 121623 1321 2921 3118 effectively 82depending 329 discover 3120 181420233315 3521 Eighth 131823describe 2310 discretion 141 1925 203 3623 37514 145 418192421 2521 discussion 1917 2317 296 401219 either 89 177 described 1525 disease 1225 3191117

decided 318 2413 29182323 dismissed 396 3517 368211919 2511 3017 3314describes 239 dispositive 820 3625 4410 271922 3422 elements 535describing 325 824 913 452 3513 3911 3413 4414designed 2424 3925 exactly 2020

decision 319 453determination disproportion 259 2824 52 1117 elevate 261658 8222325 375 example 242 1822 191921 embraced 411999 124 1924 disproportion 2819 21412 2212 embracing2122 2336 3714 excerpts 1020 221219 299 2113261417 3213 dispute 324 excluded 718 3624 3713 enacting 42193223 3357 disregarded excuse 418 4020 engage 23113539 439 438 execute 3410

declined 1611 engaged 106454 distortion 4321 4120 423 defect 1225 ensure 195determinations doctrine 1511 executed 2214 defendant 525 enters 37192123 1517 446

624 161013 entirely 336determinative doing 724 133 executing 84 16162023 3419261919 134 246 349 execution 406 287 291924 entitle 2924determine 312 342021 413 3018 312 311 4319513 617 double 3911 exhausted 1716 3314 381215 entitled 16171212 1412 1510171920 exhaustion

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17111113 fair 1116 353 fought 2120 going 1420 153 I existence 128 fairest 1123 found 111417 1518 3411 identical 36310exists 102 2124 far 522 1917 1221 136 3518 identification

2318 4118 247 291212 144 2225 grabs 2813 2313 expansive 167 favor 2713 2322 2577 grant 818 395 identify 2316

1614 Federal 164 261212 285 436 323 expert 1412 172125 181 3424 3723 granted 396 identity 3020

2915 2811 318 4124 granting 4314 302124experts 512 filed 4110 frankly 268 great 1015 ignores 4218

191 368 final 2218 function 2324 grounds 3911 illuminate 132 4414 find 524 1012 263 guidepost 1319 imagine 27416

explains 1315 267 further 186 131923 implement exposure 1722 finding 49 64 443 455 gun 14212325 1411 express 242 625 812 921 future 1110 1512 implementingexpressly 349 1211 1424 51G Hextending 48 1512 1824 important 162

G 31 H 117 25 1913 extensive 1217 20711 227 2110 3515general 115 habeas 164extent 1219 2222 24213 impose 1117

2018 1722 3952414 251218 2522 3622F generally 3049 hand 44 2718 2519 29923 imposing 173facing 1623 getting 314 happens 2242925 301719 improvidentlyfact 413 56 Ginsburg 416 hat 13123025 311 396

617 717 913 918 1010 hear 33371922 383 inaccurate101822 1413 1210 135 hearing 3122038511 3919 4411203 2410 2025 2136 422 512 185 4010 incentive 10152522 27312 2115 2221 199 2717findings 516 351424 365 299 334714 237 266 275 heinous 61234 3789 incentives 3633511 366 279 348 held 181 3320 3811 36712372022 383 3514 36313 3321fine 1720 includes 515163851111 3721 38414 helps 132first 31422 including 5113910 4122 4041422 highlighted 79615 1216 inconsistency

factor 62 715 4114 4216 hinge 4413135 1411 40211192021 Ginsburgs 245 history 1025159 1725 incorporate1225 13117 give 321 238 Hoag 1610185 2312 1611261920 348 289121723 hold 312 184 2419 257 independent3515 3616 3118 435 holds 151 1721 3020 3117 194 2311416 given 71 148 Honor 425 67 32236710 independently

factors 319 141012 253 76 815 9215 335 3918 310 920111320 124 go 319 1123 1014 11224214 437 individual 24312562124 135 1519 1216 138focused 1917 ineligible 2921131025 3615 182 261718 161 1714followed 3919 3315 401920

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

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quite 141617precisely 344 proceed 2821 referred 3918 11271125407preclude 349 proceeding 63 regard 408 1261123

precluded 222 153 201 regarded 411 137132124Rprecludes 323 2218 2318 regardless 2023 14317 1923 R 31preclusion 419 24812 252 relating 61213 205791618raise 3825 392 91 151011 2810 2916 15910 21771424

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reading 262preponderance prosecutor rendering 1923 424 43218really 4252317 3512 1011 119 205 454 reason 424presented 117 35161821 reopen 2824 retarded 313

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reviewed 921 238 252 3215 3412 311 4422524 1322 reviewing 414 3313 415 351 361025 suggest 810221317 272

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rules 1516 166 332162024 1115 1818 41 272 3310 sentenced 62 1691215 343 3913 4323 441017 sword 118sentencer 49 3225 Souters 426 straight 422710 141 Truling 2914 specific 812 stretch 392222sentences 4025

T 2113313 1125 3921 strikes 3611sentencing take 521 1712 run 720 1521 specifically 519 submitted 458301625

1717 34131524 spoke 51919 4510separate 39 taken 173 2315 stage 3018 subsequent 63serious 281

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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versus Swenson and its application But Mr Bies cannot

benefit from Ashe because Ashe -- the Ashe collateral

estoppel rule only operates to benefit defendants who

have in hand an earlier acquittal and Mr Bies has

never been acquitted of the death penalty in any sense

of the word

This Court beginning in Bullington and

extending through Sattazahn has defined an acquittal

in a death penalty context as a finding by the sentencer

that the death -- that the sentence of death is

warranted in a particular case And the -- the jury and

the trial judge in this case agreed that death was

warranted and in fact the Ohio Supreme Court and

every reviewing court has agreed that death was

warranted

JUSTICE GINSBURG But they all agreed that

he was mentally retarded and that was a mitigator

They all agreed to that But assuming youre right on

issue preclusion what more -- the State says yes we

recognize mental retardation means you cant

administer the death penalty But what would the State

show at an Atkins hearing that is not already in the

record of this case I mean why do it again

MR MIZER The reason to do it again Your

Honor is because the -- the standard set forth by the

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Ohio Supreme Court in Lott when it was implementing this

Courts decision in Atkins contained three definitions

-- three elements of the Atkins definition of the

definition of mental retardation And those three

elements were not carefully demonstrated by Dr Winter

And in fact the -- the record here -- the Ohio

post-conviction court has concluded -- doesnt suffice

to make the post-Atkins Lott determination

The -- at pages 101a to 104a of the Petition

Appendix the State postconviction court looks at all

the evidence including Dr Winters testimony and says

that there needs to be a hearing where experts will be

called in order to determine whether Mr Bies not only

suffers from significant intellectual limitations which

includes IQ but there is conflicting IQ evidence in the

record It also includes findings that he suffers from

substantial limitations in adaptive skills the skills

needed for daily life which Dr Winter never

specifically spoke about She spoke only about IQ when

she was talking about mental retardation

JUSTICE KENNEDY I dont want to take you

too far outside the record and you can come back to it

but I -- I just have this question Suppose that in a

jury case the jury -- pre-Atkins the jury says we find

that the defendant has a 65 IQ but that in light of the

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heinous nature of the offense this is not a mitigating

factor and that he should be sentenced to death

In a subsequent Atkins proceeding can the

jury finding with reference to the IQ be conclusive

MR MIZER No it cannot

JUSTICE KENNEDY Or must that be reopened

MR MIZER It can Your Honor for two

reasons

JUSTICE KENNEDY It can -- can be reopened

MR MIZER It can be Yes Im sorry It

cant be preclusive It can be reopened for two

reasons one relating to the definition of mental

retardation post-Atkins and the other relating to the

different issues

First with respect to the definition the

Ohio Supreme Court has made clear in Lott that IQ is not

enough to determine mental retardation In fact the --

the clinicians and the American Association of Mental

Retardation say that IQ is not enough particularly in a

borderline case where IQ is close to the line And

there you need to look very carefully at adaptive

skills Moreover --

JUSTICE KENNEDY But could the -- could the

defendant argue the -- that -- the accused argue that at

least as to the finding of the 65 IQ that that is a

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given

MR MIZER And --

JUSTICE KENNEDY And that that issue ie

the level of IQ cannot be relitigated the number

MR MIZER And the answer to that is no

Your Honor for issue preclusive purposes because the

issue is completely different in the mitigation context

from the post-Atkins context And I think that

difference is highlighted by the difference between

Penry and Atkins Pre-Atkins what the sentencer was

talking about the jury and then the Ohio Supreme Court

when it affirmed was what this Court told it to talk

about in Penry

It was talking about mental retardation as a

mitigating factor and the State of Ohio and the Ohio

courts had to know the definition of mental

retardation pre-Atkins In fact I think if there had

been a definition and if the courts had excluded

evidence from the jury that didnt rise to a certain

level of severity then we would have run into a -- a

post -- a Penry and Tennard problem And so all of the

evidence was allowed in and it was treated as

mitigating

And so what the Ohio Supreme Court was doing

was what Penry told it to do Considering mitigating

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evidence of mental retardation But post-Atkins the

inquiries are different because Atkins effectively

constitutionalized a clinical judgment in making -- in

defining a categorical bar on executing the mentally

retarded

And so post-Atkins it is necessary to be

very careful about the clinical judgment and this

record does not suffice for that clinical judgment And

I think it -- think it does not behoove either party to

suggest that the record --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well when you say the

clinical judgment you mean the specific finding of a

65 IQ

MR MIZER The -- the clinical judgment

that I refer to Your Honor is that required by -- by

Lott It looks not only at IQ but also at the adaptive

skills limitation

JUSTICE SOUTER Okay I grant you that

under -- under the earlier case the 65 IQ was not

dispositive and I mean that was the -- the case in

Justice Kennedys hypothetical But it was necessary

under the early case to come to a determination of what

the IQ was even though that determination was not

dispositive of the result And because it was necessary

to come to a determination why shouldnt there be a

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preclusion

MR MIZER Because Your Honor I think

there are two different meanings of necessary It was

-- it was necessary in the sense that it had to be done

but it wasnt necessary in the issue preclusive offense

because it -- it was --

JUSTICE SOUTER It wasnt necessary to

reach that particular -- in other words the

determination of 65 was not necessary to reach the

conclusion that they reached

MR MIZER Correct

JUSTICE SOUTER And you -- you are saying

the very fact that it was not dispositive of the result

means that it cannot be preclusive now

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor

JUSTICE SOUTER Okay

MR MIZER And -- and --

JUSTICE GINSBURG May I ask how it worked

pre-Atkins when mental retardation was a mitigator We

are told that the appellate courts independently

reviewed We have a finding at the trial level that

yes there is a mitigator mental retardation but it

doesnt overcome the aggravator so the jury comes in

with a death sentence

Then at the appellate level is there a

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continuing adversary contest about whether retardation

exists and therefore is a mitigator or is it just the

-- the judge the appellate judge looking over the

record that has been made at trial

MR MIZER The -- the appellate courts

engaged in a de novo record and new -- new evidence

doesnt come into the record on direct review But

there is still argument -- the parties are still in an

adversarial posture

JUSTICE GINSBURG So -- so that the

prosecutor could still argue that was unreasonable for

them to find mental retardation so there shouldnt be

that mitigator

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor but

there wasnt at the time a -- a great deal of incentive

to litigate that question because the Ohio Supreme Court

had said that mental retardation only merited some

weight in mitigation And in fact the -- the

appellate briefs on direct review are in the Joint

Appendix and -- excerpts of those briefs And Mr Bies

himself on direct review didnt vigorously argue his

mental retardation evidence In fact he said that the

arguably in his words the most persuasive

mitigating evidence was his lack of a prior record and

his lack of prior violent history

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And so none of the parties thought that

mental retardation in 1992 through 1996 was very

persuasive because the courts didnt treat it and the

jury didnt treat it as very persuasive Perhaps for the

reasons that this Court underscored in Atkins where the

Court said that as it had said in Penry that mental

retardation evidence presented to a jury in mitigation

could be a two-edged sword because some jurors might

perceive and the prosecutor might argue that that

evidence went to future dangerousness and therefore the

-- the State of Ohio argued that the mental retardation

evidence here was simply not persuasive and it was

outweighed by the -- the aggravating factors that the

jury had found Atkins told the --

JUSTICE STEVENS May I interrupt right

there Mr Mizer Is it fair to interpret the jurys

decision to impose the death penalty as having found

that he was not mentally retarded and therefore was not

a mitigating factor or that even though he was -- a

mitigating factor the aggravating factors outweighed

that factor

MR MIZER I think Your Honor that its

fairest and the record thats easiest to go by is what

the Ohio Supreme Court said because the jury didnt

make any specific remarks about mental retardation as a

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mitigator the Ohio Supreme Court did

But the -- the jurys verdict and then the

Ohio Supreme Courts affirmance should best be read as a

determination that the aggravating factors outweigh the

mitigating factors beyond a reasonable doubt and that

mental retardation was one of those mitigating factors

But it should not be read as a mini-verdict on the

existence of or the question of whether Mr Bies is

mentally retarded Because --

JUSTICE GINSBURG If they didnt make a

finding on mental retardation how -- how could the

appellate court determine that it was a mitigator but

overwhelmed by the aggravating -- what did the judge

charge the jury about mitigators and aggravators

MR MIZER The judge charged the jury that

-- first of all Your Honor the mitigating evidence

introduced by Mr Bies was not extensive He -- he

introduced an unsworn statement by himself and then Dr

Winter testified and that was the extent of the case in

mitigation So the jury was charged with the various

statutory mitigating factors in Ohio which is found in

Ohio Revised Code 292904

The mental retardation evidence was relevant

under two of those mitigating statutory factors one

factor 3 which went to mental disease or defect and

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then the catch-all factor 7 But the -- but I think

Poland helps to illuminate what the -- not only what the

jury was doing but also what the Ohio Supreme Court was

doing when it --

JUSTICE GINSBURG First go back to the

jury How do we know that the jury found mental

retardation as a mitigator

MR MIZER We dont Your Honor All that

we know is that the jury determined that the aggravating

factors outweighed the mitigators beyond a reasonable

doubt What we do know and what the Sixth Circuit hung

its hat on was the statement by the Ohio Supreme Court

on direct review that Mr Biess mental retardation

merits weight in mitigation

Poland explains that that -- that statement

by the Ohio Supreme Court should not be treated as a

mini-verdict on the mitigating factor but instead it

should be read as an Eighth Amendment-required marking

of the guidepost the very guidepost that this Court in

Penry said must be marked the relevance of mitigating

evidence of mental retardation

But -- but Poland says its wrong to think

of that marking of that Eighth Amendment guidepost as a

mini-verdict on mental retardation and instead it

should just be thought of as one of the factors that was

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bounding the discretion of the sentencer And so Poland

instructs that Mr Bies and the Sixth Circuit are wrong

to think of mental retardation as actually having been

found in some sense that affords preclusive effect

because instead it was just an Eighth Amendment

balancing

And instead what Atkins tells us is that the

State of Ohio just as the States were given the

opportunity after Ford v Wainwright in the insanity

context should be given the opportunity for the very

first time in this case to implement Atkins to

determine given clinical expert judgment whether or

not Mr Bies is in fact mentally retarded under the

three-part --

JUSTICE BREYER I understand the argument

that the issues are not quite the same that the Atkins

issue of mental retardation is not quite the same as the

issue that was litigated Lets try and get that out of

the case I think thats where Justice Kennedy was

going

Suppose it was a gun case and the Supreme

Court originally thought you could convict people who

sell drugs of simple possession of a gun Theres a

finding because its a bench trial that he simply

possessed but did not otherwise use the gun Then the

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Supreme Court holds that that isnt enough under the

statute So now the State wants to argue because the

proceeding on appeal or whatever is still going on we

want a second shot at this we want to show he did more

than simply possess Is the State bound by what it

previously lost on or can the State -- can he get a

second shot

MR MIZER The answer is that the State is

not bound for two reasons the first relating to issue

preclusion and the second relating to the double

jeopardy doctrine in Ashe On issue preclusion the --

the finding with respect to the gun doesnt carry

preclusive effect because this Court said in --

Sunnen and other cases that when there is a change in

legal consequences that change is enough to prevent the

operation of preclusive rules

But on the double jeopardy doctrine --

JUSTICE BREYER Im not -- Im not going to

go into double jeopardy I dont think necessarily that

its double jeopardy that -- that is relevant here But

I have a -- have you run into this in a different

context They wouldnt use the word double jeopardy

It would be some kind of due process problem Maybe

there isnt a problem Have you run in your research to

anything like what I described

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MR MIZER No Your Honor because it is

important to remember that this is -- this is a double

jeopardy case because of Ashe and because this is in

Federal habeas

With respect to your question about due

process or -- or other rules aside from due process

its possible that the State could have more expansive

common law or State law interpretations of the

collateral estoppel rules and maybe those would benefit

the defendant This Court in -- in the Hoag case

declined to use due process to incorporate collateral

estoppel rules constitutionally So in your case the

defendant would only be left with the hope that the

State would have more expansive collateral estoppel

rules

But to return to Ashe the defendant here is

claiming that he is entitled to a constitutionalized

version of collateral estoppel because of Ashe but hes

not entitled to that protection because Ashe applies

only where a defendant has previously been acquitted

and he has not

It also applies only in a case where the

defendant is facing a successive jeopardy of some sort

Now Mr Biess sentence is -- is surely at issue in

this case but its at issue in the sense that it would

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be at issue in say a direct appeal Its only --

there has only been one prosecution The State has only

taken one crack at convicting him or imposing a

sentence and that one sentence is whats at issue here

And so there is not anything successive

about this case and so the Double Jeopardy Clause

either through the put-in-jeopardy text or through the

acquittal requirement simply has nothing to offer Mr

Bies in the way of assistance

JUSTICE ALITO Could I ask you about --

about exhaustion What should we do about exhaustion

here I take it you dont -- youre not waiving

exhaustion

MR MIZER Your Honor were not contending

that the Ashe claim is unexhausted We agree that

thats exhausted because in the Ohio courts it is not

permissible to take an interlocutory appeal when a

double jeopardy claim has been denied as it was in this

case

And so we are fine with the Sixth Circuit

precedent that holds that in that case the Federal

courts can act in habeas to prevent exposure to a double

jeopardy We simply maintain that there is no second

jeopardy here But the Atkins claim itself is

unexhausted and the Federal magistrate that first dealt

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

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agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

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42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

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judgment 8378161923 441017 457 2021 mental 420 54 88121418912 195 lines 39 520 61217

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merited 1017 Monday 19 ought 202021 Penry 71013Omerits 1314 motion 3818 outcome 2619 72125 116

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2525 2813 opinion 205 parties 3253457 424 1322 141 noted 4216 2111 108 11165710 725 posed 4413 novo 106 opinions 1923 party 89 2120 814 921115 position 189 number 74 247 opportunity 2618917 10514 2925 443

2411 252021 14910 passages 3917111622 1215 positions 403 265 354 oral 111 22 35 penalty 45921138 158 161 possess 155 3620 3734 1913 1117 2181714 181020 possessed 1425

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

311 510 183 4217 put 4025 27 4212 1512 165 18111525 primarily 392 put-in-jeopardy recites 4419 307 4214 191 37910 prior 102425 177 recognize 420 Respondent 3719 387 22716 248 recognized 118 26 1914

Q4012 439 2411 3023 3620 responding 425 question 5234415 451 364 record 423 56 response 244

1016 128posture 109 problem 721 51622 8810 2418 333 165 1812226 3424 152324 285 1046724 3716 3818 2221 245post-Atkins 58 4371115 1123 181423 412123265 30714613 78 816 problems 437 3022 371724 result 824 913 334 35252112 432 4312 381219 3916 2513 3121 365 393 421 449 procedural 224 4025 432525 retardation 420 4324 44812post-conviction 226 3424 4420 452 5420 61317 441357 procedure 2825 refer 815 619 71417

questions 186precedent 1721 3225 341220 reference 64 81 91922426 455precise 2518 342125 355 392021 101121722

quite 141617precisely 344 proceed 2821 referred 3918 11271125407preclude 349 proceeding 63 regard 408 1261123

precluded 222 153 201 regarded 411 137132124Rprecludes 323 2218 2318 regardless 2023 14317 1923 R 31preclusion 419 24812 252 relating 61213 205791618raise 3825 392 91 151011 2810 2916 15910 21771424

39121421171819 318 3216 relevance 1320 22791424raised 247 393 221 261910 387 444 relevant 1223 2322 2439

3982913 306 proceedings 1520 2612 2717raises 3710322101121 1815 relief 4366 2817 301 ran 3713311 3516 process 1523 relitigated 74 311 3214reach 989 372 3824 166611 199 remaining 4211 341316 355 reached 910preclusive 611 prong 264 remains 1812 3571119reaching 352576 9514 144 proof 3510 remarks 1125 36522 3712 read 1237151316 234 properly 327 remedy 288 3717182225

1318 263241414 321 prosecution remember 162 392024 401 3015 4143246 172 364 render 2921 419212325

reading 262preponderance prosecutor rendering 1923 424 43218really 4252317 3512 1011 119 205 454 reason 424presented 117 35161821 reopen 2824 retarded 313

3322 3441925 protection 1619 reopened 669 417 85 1118 395prevent 1515 proven 243 611 129 1413

reasonable 3201722 psychiatrist repeated 3821 271821 3411 125 1310prevented 4313 1922 required 815 388131620438previously 156 psychologists 391 441521

reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

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221315 2910 serve 264 stakes 407 2211 2713S 322425 serves 264 stand 328 2916 3223S 21 31

return 1616 set 425 standard 425 subsequentlysake 382 reveals 371824 severe 4321 2318 4310 3023 4119Sam 3110

3819 411 severity 720 stands 327 subsidiarysatisfied 255 4325 4420 shape 341225 starting 2019 241013 334 Sattazahn 48

reverse 2723 shot 1547 283 state 41921 3372922 4321 456 show 422 154 510 715 substantial 517saying 912

review 10719 4411 1111 148 successive 315241221 2815 1021 1313 shown 3812 152568 167 1623 17531617 328 1825 2310 shows 319 16814 172 suffers 514163423 3923 254 4317 Shuffling 3110 189 193420 suffice 57 88 4013 431 4415 significance 1925 2419 sufficient 2923says 419 511

reviewed 921 238 252 3215 3412 311 4422524 1322 reviewing 414 3313 415 351 361025 suggest 810221317 272

2319 significant 514 3791016 suggested 36132717 288 Revised 1222 similar 312021 386771015 summarily3711 3811 reweighing simple 1423 3824 4024 27234111

2311 simply 1112 412224 4225 Sunnen 1514second 315 154 right 418 1115 1424 155 44425 support 43515710 1723

268 27415 17823 stated 2711 supports 2819328 338 311416 377 Sixth 1311 142 4221 451 suppose 5233624 4220

rise 719 1720 2111 statement 1218 1421 27104310 risk 371 435812 456 131215 414 Supreme 1112secondly 3919 ROBERTS 33 skills 51717 4216 4317 413 51 616 secure 3522

1911 2912 622 817 448111924 71124 1016 see 24516302 3611 sole 359 statements 286 1124 12132616 308 4210 457 Solicitor 115 States 1112 1331216seeing 402

role 2391024 somebody 276 148 2019 1421 151sell 1423 2623 sorry 610 3817 3420 3715 182124 207 sense 45 94

rule 43 2018 4116 4112 4220 2025 214144 1625 22131517 sort 1623 2920 States 3818 2319212524 2711 2817 3612 398 3918 403 2720 3416sentence 410 291020 329 4111 4215 439 372623924 1624 3219192021 SOUTER 811 statute 152 43161744 2117 322324 332 818 971216 statutory 1221 sure 3218 3913 2121 2320 33991017 201015 244 1224 3915254 2924 3319 34410 256121524 step 2312 surely 16243623 375143420 3125 3218 STEVENS Swenson 31740413 4320

rules 1516 166 332162024 1115 1818 41 272 3310 sentenced 62 1691215 343 3913 4323 441017 sword 118sentencer 49 3225 Souters 426 straight 422710 141 Truling 2914 specific 812 stretch 392222sentences 4025

T 2113313 1125 3921 strikes 3611sentencing take 521 1712 run 720 1521 specifically 519 submitted 458301625

1717 34131524 spoke 51919 4510separate 39 taken 173 2315 stage 3018 subsequent 63serious 281

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3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

71114 2417 told 71225 understanding Washington 18 X2423 409 920 1114 2623 wasnt 957

x 1274115 431 3814 unexhausted 1015 181418 technical 394 tomorrow 3217 171525 182 213 318 367 Ytechnically 297 tracking 4112 unique 226 401111 415

years 211tells 147 traditional 253 34135 421 yellow 4221ten 4211 3221 United 1112 way 179 2123

Tennard 721 treat 1134 3715 2223 235 0 terms 2712 treated 722 unreasonable 2539 324 08-598 15test 1819 1316 298 1011 1924 3525 testified 1219 trial 412 921 unsworn 1218 ways 2422 1

1813 104 1424 unusual 3224 4218 101 1811testifying 1921 1813 28912 urging 2116 weighed 2612 101a 59testimony 511 28121317 use 1425 1522 weighing 3415 104a 59 1811

1819 358 3020 311113 1611 2415 3424 1102 113 32 text 177 358 444 uses 2610 weight 1018 1154 459Thank 1911 true 219 usually 2421 1314 4319 143 381818

42910 457 try 1418 went 1110 153 3810Vtheory 2822 trying 2421 1225 202 16 4222 v 15 149 241 304911 264 2515 160 3822 4324 272 3310things 2918 turns 2423 were 1714 18 4222vaguely 2923713 4021 3210 2113 241722 19 26various 12204112 4218 two 6711 93 314 40922 1992 112vastly 3515think 7817 89 1224 159 4114 1996 112verdict 12289 92 1122 247111823 weve 324 345 version 161813122 143 251 264 White 241 2 versus 34171419 1519 2918 374 win 272310 2009 19

41 21112013 2110 40325 4218 winner 211719 2254(d)(1) 4314vigorously237 253 268 436 221 261025 2254(d)(2) 1919

10212711822 two-edged 118 Winter 5518 391112 434 violates 4181928101324 typical 224 1219 1921 4311violent 102529417 3014 204 357 27 19U virtually 369316 331822 Winters 1813 292904 1222

ultimate 2122352 36215 Winters 511W2125 222325 33619 39222 wishes 2415Wainwright2335 2410 427 won 2120 276 3 24 1225

1492614 273thinks 351622 277 3617waiving 1712 43525 361third 316 word 46 1522 want 521 1544 uncritically 42 29thought 111 words 98 1023

2822 291 23251325 1422 worked 918 5wants 152underlying 307three 39 5234 wouldnt 15223521 50 1819underscored36819 4414 308

warden 13115three-part 1414 writ 395 4314 6271525 3910 understand432 wrong 1322

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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Ohio Supreme Court in Lott when it was implementing this

Courts decision in Atkins contained three definitions

-- three elements of the Atkins definition of the

definition of mental retardation And those three

elements were not carefully demonstrated by Dr Winter

And in fact the -- the record here -- the Ohio

post-conviction court has concluded -- doesnt suffice

to make the post-Atkins Lott determination

The -- at pages 101a to 104a of the Petition

Appendix the State postconviction court looks at all

the evidence including Dr Winters testimony and says

that there needs to be a hearing where experts will be

called in order to determine whether Mr Bies not only

suffers from significant intellectual limitations which

includes IQ but there is conflicting IQ evidence in the

record It also includes findings that he suffers from

substantial limitations in adaptive skills the skills

needed for daily life which Dr Winter never

specifically spoke about She spoke only about IQ when

she was talking about mental retardation

JUSTICE KENNEDY I dont want to take you

too far outside the record and you can come back to it

but I -- I just have this question Suppose that in a

jury case the jury -- pre-Atkins the jury says we find

that the defendant has a 65 IQ but that in light of the

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heinous nature of the offense this is not a mitigating

factor and that he should be sentenced to death

In a subsequent Atkins proceeding can the

jury finding with reference to the IQ be conclusive

MR MIZER No it cannot

JUSTICE KENNEDY Or must that be reopened

MR MIZER It can Your Honor for two

reasons

JUSTICE KENNEDY It can -- can be reopened

MR MIZER It can be Yes Im sorry It

cant be preclusive It can be reopened for two

reasons one relating to the definition of mental

retardation post-Atkins and the other relating to the

different issues

First with respect to the definition the

Ohio Supreme Court has made clear in Lott that IQ is not

enough to determine mental retardation In fact the --

the clinicians and the American Association of Mental

Retardation say that IQ is not enough particularly in a

borderline case where IQ is close to the line And

there you need to look very carefully at adaptive

skills Moreover --

JUSTICE KENNEDY But could the -- could the

defendant argue the -- that -- the accused argue that at

least as to the finding of the 65 IQ that that is a

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given

MR MIZER And --

JUSTICE KENNEDY And that that issue ie

the level of IQ cannot be relitigated the number

MR MIZER And the answer to that is no

Your Honor for issue preclusive purposes because the

issue is completely different in the mitigation context

from the post-Atkins context And I think that

difference is highlighted by the difference between

Penry and Atkins Pre-Atkins what the sentencer was

talking about the jury and then the Ohio Supreme Court

when it affirmed was what this Court told it to talk

about in Penry

It was talking about mental retardation as a

mitigating factor and the State of Ohio and the Ohio

courts had to know the definition of mental

retardation pre-Atkins In fact I think if there had

been a definition and if the courts had excluded

evidence from the jury that didnt rise to a certain

level of severity then we would have run into a -- a

post -- a Penry and Tennard problem And so all of the

evidence was allowed in and it was treated as

mitigating

And so what the Ohio Supreme Court was doing

was what Penry told it to do Considering mitigating

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evidence of mental retardation But post-Atkins the

inquiries are different because Atkins effectively

constitutionalized a clinical judgment in making -- in

defining a categorical bar on executing the mentally

retarded

And so post-Atkins it is necessary to be

very careful about the clinical judgment and this

record does not suffice for that clinical judgment And

I think it -- think it does not behoove either party to

suggest that the record --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well when you say the

clinical judgment you mean the specific finding of a

65 IQ

MR MIZER The -- the clinical judgment

that I refer to Your Honor is that required by -- by

Lott It looks not only at IQ but also at the adaptive

skills limitation

JUSTICE SOUTER Okay I grant you that

under -- under the earlier case the 65 IQ was not

dispositive and I mean that was the -- the case in

Justice Kennedys hypothetical But it was necessary

under the early case to come to a determination of what

the IQ was even though that determination was not

dispositive of the result And because it was necessary

to come to a determination why shouldnt there be a

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preclusion

MR MIZER Because Your Honor I think

there are two different meanings of necessary It was

-- it was necessary in the sense that it had to be done

but it wasnt necessary in the issue preclusive offense

because it -- it was --

JUSTICE SOUTER It wasnt necessary to

reach that particular -- in other words the

determination of 65 was not necessary to reach the

conclusion that they reached

MR MIZER Correct

JUSTICE SOUTER And you -- you are saying

the very fact that it was not dispositive of the result

means that it cannot be preclusive now

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor

JUSTICE SOUTER Okay

MR MIZER And -- and --

JUSTICE GINSBURG May I ask how it worked

pre-Atkins when mental retardation was a mitigator We

are told that the appellate courts independently

reviewed We have a finding at the trial level that

yes there is a mitigator mental retardation but it

doesnt overcome the aggravator so the jury comes in

with a death sentence

Then at the appellate level is there a

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continuing adversary contest about whether retardation

exists and therefore is a mitigator or is it just the

-- the judge the appellate judge looking over the

record that has been made at trial

MR MIZER The -- the appellate courts

engaged in a de novo record and new -- new evidence

doesnt come into the record on direct review But

there is still argument -- the parties are still in an

adversarial posture

JUSTICE GINSBURG So -- so that the

prosecutor could still argue that was unreasonable for

them to find mental retardation so there shouldnt be

that mitigator

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor but

there wasnt at the time a -- a great deal of incentive

to litigate that question because the Ohio Supreme Court

had said that mental retardation only merited some

weight in mitigation And in fact the -- the

appellate briefs on direct review are in the Joint

Appendix and -- excerpts of those briefs And Mr Bies

himself on direct review didnt vigorously argue his

mental retardation evidence In fact he said that the

arguably in his words the most persuasive

mitigating evidence was his lack of a prior record and

his lack of prior violent history

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And so none of the parties thought that

mental retardation in 1992 through 1996 was very

persuasive because the courts didnt treat it and the

jury didnt treat it as very persuasive Perhaps for the

reasons that this Court underscored in Atkins where the

Court said that as it had said in Penry that mental

retardation evidence presented to a jury in mitigation

could be a two-edged sword because some jurors might

perceive and the prosecutor might argue that that

evidence went to future dangerousness and therefore the

-- the State of Ohio argued that the mental retardation

evidence here was simply not persuasive and it was

outweighed by the -- the aggravating factors that the

jury had found Atkins told the --

JUSTICE STEVENS May I interrupt right

there Mr Mizer Is it fair to interpret the jurys

decision to impose the death penalty as having found

that he was not mentally retarded and therefore was not

a mitigating factor or that even though he was -- a

mitigating factor the aggravating factors outweighed

that factor

MR MIZER I think Your Honor that its

fairest and the record thats easiest to go by is what

the Ohio Supreme Court said because the jury didnt

make any specific remarks about mental retardation as a

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mitigator the Ohio Supreme Court did

But the -- the jurys verdict and then the

Ohio Supreme Courts affirmance should best be read as a

determination that the aggravating factors outweigh the

mitigating factors beyond a reasonable doubt and that

mental retardation was one of those mitigating factors

But it should not be read as a mini-verdict on the

existence of or the question of whether Mr Bies is

mentally retarded Because --

JUSTICE GINSBURG If they didnt make a

finding on mental retardation how -- how could the

appellate court determine that it was a mitigator but

overwhelmed by the aggravating -- what did the judge

charge the jury about mitigators and aggravators

MR MIZER The judge charged the jury that

-- first of all Your Honor the mitigating evidence

introduced by Mr Bies was not extensive He -- he

introduced an unsworn statement by himself and then Dr

Winter testified and that was the extent of the case in

mitigation So the jury was charged with the various

statutory mitigating factors in Ohio which is found in

Ohio Revised Code 292904

The mental retardation evidence was relevant

under two of those mitigating statutory factors one

factor 3 which went to mental disease or defect and

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then the catch-all factor 7 But the -- but I think

Poland helps to illuminate what the -- not only what the

jury was doing but also what the Ohio Supreme Court was

doing when it --

JUSTICE GINSBURG First go back to the

jury How do we know that the jury found mental

retardation as a mitigator

MR MIZER We dont Your Honor All that

we know is that the jury determined that the aggravating

factors outweighed the mitigators beyond a reasonable

doubt What we do know and what the Sixth Circuit hung

its hat on was the statement by the Ohio Supreme Court

on direct review that Mr Biess mental retardation

merits weight in mitigation

Poland explains that that -- that statement

by the Ohio Supreme Court should not be treated as a

mini-verdict on the mitigating factor but instead it

should be read as an Eighth Amendment-required marking

of the guidepost the very guidepost that this Court in

Penry said must be marked the relevance of mitigating

evidence of mental retardation

But -- but Poland says its wrong to think

of that marking of that Eighth Amendment guidepost as a

mini-verdict on mental retardation and instead it

should just be thought of as one of the factors that was

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bounding the discretion of the sentencer And so Poland

instructs that Mr Bies and the Sixth Circuit are wrong

to think of mental retardation as actually having been

found in some sense that affords preclusive effect

because instead it was just an Eighth Amendment

balancing

And instead what Atkins tells us is that the

State of Ohio just as the States were given the

opportunity after Ford v Wainwright in the insanity

context should be given the opportunity for the very

first time in this case to implement Atkins to

determine given clinical expert judgment whether or

not Mr Bies is in fact mentally retarded under the

three-part --

JUSTICE BREYER I understand the argument

that the issues are not quite the same that the Atkins

issue of mental retardation is not quite the same as the

issue that was litigated Lets try and get that out of

the case I think thats where Justice Kennedy was

going

Suppose it was a gun case and the Supreme

Court originally thought you could convict people who

sell drugs of simple possession of a gun Theres a

finding because its a bench trial that he simply

possessed but did not otherwise use the gun Then the

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Supreme Court holds that that isnt enough under the

statute So now the State wants to argue because the

proceeding on appeal or whatever is still going on we

want a second shot at this we want to show he did more

than simply possess Is the State bound by what it

previously lost on or can the State -- can he get a

second shot

MR MIZER The answer is that the State is

not bound for two reasons the first relating to issue

preclusion and the second relating to the double

jeopardy doctrine in Ashe On issue preclusion the --

the finding with respect to the gun doesnt carry

preclusive effect because this Court said in --

Sunnen and other cases that when there is a change in

legal consequences that change is enough to prevent the

operation of preclusive rules

But on the double jeopardy doctrine --

JUSTICE BREYER Im not -- Im not going to

go into double jeopardy I dont think necessarily that

its double jeopardy that -- that is relevant here But

I have a -- have you run into this in a different

context They wouldnt use the word double jeopardy

It would be some kind of due process problem Maybe

there isnt a problem Have you run in your research to

anything like what I described

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MR MIZER No Your Honor because it is

important to remember that this is -- this is a double

jeopardy case because of Ashe and because this is in

Federal habeas

With respect to your question about due

process or -- or other rules aside from due process

its possible that the State could have more expansive

common law or State law interpretations of the

collateral estoppel rules and maybe those would benefit

the defendant This Court in -- in the Hoag case

declined to use due process to incorporate collateral

estoppel rules constitutionally So in your case the

defendant would only be left with the hope that the

State would have more expansive collateral estoppel

rules

But to return to Ashe the defendant here is

claiming that he is entitled to a constitutionalized

version of collateral estoppel because of Ashe but hes

not entitled to that protection because Ashe applies

only where a defendant has previously been acquitted

and he has not

It also applies only in a case where the

defendant is facing a successive jeopardy of some sort

Now Mr Biess sentence is -- is surely at issue in

this case but its at issue in the sense that it would

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be at issue in say a direct appeal Its only --

there has only been one prosecution The State has only

taken one crack at convicting him or imposing a

sentence and that one sentence is whats at issue here

And so there is not anything successive

about this case and so the Double Jeopardy Clause

either through the put-in-jeopardy text or through the

acquittal requirement simply has nothing to offer Mr

Bies in the way of assistance

JUSTICE ALITO Could I ask you about --

about exhaustion What should we do about exhaustion

here I take it you dont -- youre not waiving

exhaustion

MR MIZER Your Honor were not contending

that the Ashe claim is unexhausted We agree that

thats exhausted because in the Ohio courts it is not

permissible to take an interlocutory appeal when a

double jeopardy claim has been denied as it was in this

case

And so we are fine with the Sixth Circuit

precedent that holds that in that case the Federal

courts can act in habeas to prevent exposure to a double

jeopardy We simply maintain that there is no second

jeopardy here But the Atkins claim itself is

unexhausted and the Federal magistrate that first dealt

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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3820 3921 412 441621

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heinous nature of the offense this is not a mitigating

factor and that he should be sentenced to death

In a subsequent Atkins proceeding can the

jury finding with reference to the IQ be conclusive

MR MIZER No it cannot

JUSTICE KENNEDY Or must that be reopened

MR MIZER It can Your Honor for two

reasons

JUSTICE KENNEDY It can -- can be reopened

MR MIZER It can be Yes Im sorry It

cant be preclusive It can be reopened for two

reasons one relating to the definition of mental

retardation post-Atkins and the other relating to the

different issues

First with respect to the definition the

Ohio Supreme Court has made clear in Lott that IQ is not

enough to determine mental retardation In fact the --

the clinicians and the American Association of Mental

Retardation say that IQ is not enough particularly in a

borderline case where IQ is close to the line And

there you need to look very carefully at adaptive

skills Moreover --

JUSTICE KENNEDY But could the -- could the

defendant argue the -- that -- the accused argue that at

least as to the finding of the 65 IQ that that is a

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given

MR MIZER And --

JUSTICE KENNEDY And that that issue ie

the level of IQ cannot be relitigated the number

MR MIZER And the answer to that is no

Your Honor for issue preclusive purposes because the

issue is completely different in the mitigation context

from the post-Atkins context And I think that

difference is highlighted by the difference between

Penry and Atkins Pre-Atkins what the sentencer was

talking about the jury and then the Ohio Supreme Court

when it affirmed was what this Court told it to talk

about in Penry

It was talking about mental retardation as a

mitigating factor and the State of Ohio and the Ohio

courts had to know the definition of mental

retardation pre-Atkins In fact I think if there had

been a definition and if the courts had excluded

evidence from the jury that didnt rise to a certain

level of severity then we would have run into a -- a

post -- a Penry and Tennard problem And so all of the

evidence was allowed in and it was treated as

mitigating

And so what the Ohio Supreme Court was doing

was what Penry told it to do Considering mitigating

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evidence of mental retardation But post-Atkins the

inquiries are different because Atkins effectively

constitutionalized a clinical judgment in making -- in

defining a categorical bar on executing the mentally

retarded

And so post-Atkins it is necessary to be

very careful about the clinical judgment and this

record does not suffice for that clinical judgment And

I think it -- think it does not behoove either party to

suggest that the record --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well when you say the

clinical judgment you mean the specific finding of a

65 IQ

MR MIZER The -- the clinical judgment

that I refer to Your Honor is that required by -- by

Lott It looks not only at IQ but also at the adaptive

skills limitation

JUSTICE SOUTER Okay I grant you that

under -- under the earlier case the 65 IQ was not

dispositive and I mean that was the -- the case in

Justice Kennedys hypothetical But it was necessary

under the early case to come to a determination of what

the IQ was even though that determination was not

dispositive of the result And because it was necessary

to come to a determination why shouldnt there be a

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preclusion

MR MIZER Because Your Honor I think

there are two different meanings of necessary It was

-- it was necessary in the sense that it had to be done

but it wasnt necessary in the issue preclusive offense

because it -- it was --

JUSTICE SOUTER It wasnt necessary to

reach that particular -- in other words the

determination of 65 was not necessary to reach the

conclusion that they reached

MR MIZER Correct

JUSTICE SOUTER And you -- you are saying

the very fact that it was not dispositive of the result

means that it cannot be preclusive now

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor

JUSTICE SOUTER Okay

MR MIZER And -- and --

JUSTICE GINSBURG May I ask how it worked

pre-Atkins when mental retardation was a mitigator We

are told that the appellate courts independently

reviewed We have a finding at the trial level that

yes there is a mitigator mental retardation but it

doesnt overcome the aggravator so the jury comes in

with a death sentence

Then at the appellate level is there a

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continuing adversary contest about whether retardation

exists and therefore is a mitigator or is it just the

-- the judge the appellate judge looking over the

record that has been made at trial

MR MIZER The -- the appellate courts

engaged in a de novo record and new -- new evidence

doesnt come into the record on direct review But

there is still argument -- the parties are still in an

adversarial posture

JUSTICE GINSBURG So -- so that the

prosecutor could still argue that was unreasonable for

them to find mental retardation so there shouldnt be

that mitigator

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor but

there wasnt at the time a -- a great deal of incentive

to litigate that question because the Ohio Supreme Court

had said that mental retardation only merited some

weight in mitigation And in fact the -- the

appellate briefs on direct review are in the Joint

Appendix and -- excerpts of those briefs And Mr Bies

himself on direct review didnt vigorously argue his

mental retardation evidence In fact he said that the

arguably in his words the most persuasive

mitigating evidence was his lack of a prior record and

his lack of prior violent history

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And so none of the parties thought that

mental retardation in 1992 through 1996 was very

persuasive because the courts didnt treat it and the

jury didnt treat it as very persuasive Perhaps for the

reasons that this Court underscored in Atkins where the

Court said that as it had said in Penry that mental

retardation evidence presented to a jury in mitigation

could be a two-edged sword because some jurors might

perceive and the prosecutor might argue that that

evidence went to future dangerousness and therefore the

-- the State of Ohio argued that the mental retardation

evidence here was simply not persuasive and it was

outweighed by the -- the aggravating factors that the

jury had found Atkins told the --

JUSTICE STEVENS May I interrupt right

there Mr Mizer Is it fair to interpret the jurys

decision to impose the death penalty as having found

that he was not mentally retarded and therefore was not

a mitigating factor or that even though he was -- a

mitigating factor the aggravating factors outweighed

that factor

MR MIZER I think Your Honor that its

fairest and the record thats easiest to go by is what

the Ohio Supreme Court said because the jury didnt

make any specific remarks about mental retardation as a

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mitigator the Ohio Supreme Court did

But the -- the jurys verdict and then the

Ohio Supreme Courts affirmance should best be read as a

determination that the aggravating factors outweigh the

mitigating factors beyond a reasonable doubt and that

mental retardation was one of those mitigating factors

But it should not be read as a mini-verdict on the

existence of or the question of whether Mr Bies is

mentally retarded Because --

JUSTICE GINSBURG If they didnt make a

finding on mental retardation how -- how could the

appellate court determine that it was a mitigator but

overwhelmed by the aggravating -- what did the judge

charge the jury about mitigators and aggravators

MR MIZER The judge charged the jury that

-- first of all Your Honor the mitigating evidence

introduced by Mr Bies was not extensive He -- he

introduced an unsworn statement by himself and then Dr

Winter testified and that was the extent of the case in

mitigation So the jury was charged with the various

statutory mitigating factors in Ohio which is found in

Ohio Revised Code 292904

The mental retardation evidence was relevant

under two of those mitigating statutory factors one

factor 3 which went to mental disease or defect and

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then the catch-all factor 7 But the -- but I think

Poland helps to illuminate what the -- not only what the

jury was doing but also what the Ohio Supreme Court was

doing when it --

JUSTICE GINSBURG First go back to the

jury How do we know that the jury found mental

retardation as a mitigator

MR MIZER We dont Your Honor All that

we know is that the jury determined that the aggravating

factors outweighed the mitigators beyond a reasonable

doubt What we do know and what the Sixth Circuit hung

its hat on was the statement by the Ohio Supreme Court

on direct review that Mr Biess mental retardation

merits weight in mitigation

Poland explains that that -- that statement

by the Ohio Supreme Court should not be treated as a

mini-verdict on the mitigating factor but instead it

should be read as an Eighth Amendment-required marking

of the guidepost the very guidepost that this Court in

Penry said must be marked the relevance of mitigating

evidence of mental retardation

But -- but Poland says its wrong to think

of that marking of that Eighth Amendment guidepost as a

mini-verdict on mental retardation and instead it

should just be thought of as one of the factors that was

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bounding the discretion of the sentencer And so Poland

instructs that Mr Bies and the Sixth Circuit are wrong

to think of mental retardation as actually having been

found in some sense that affords preclusive effect

because instead it was just an Eighth Amendment

balancing

And instead what Atkins tells us is that the

State of Ohio just as the States were given the

opportunity after Ford v Wainwright in the insanity

context should be given the opportunity for the very

first time in this case to implement Atkins to

determine given clinical expert judgment whether or

not Mr Bies is in fact mentally retarded under the

three-part --

JUSTICE BREYER I understand the argument

that the issues are not quite the same that the Atkins

issue of mental retardation is not quite the same as the

issue that was litigated Lets try and get that out of

the case I think thats where Justice Kennedy was

going

Suppose it was a gun case and the Supreme

Court originally thought you could convict people who

sell drugs of simple possession of a gun Theres a

finding because its a bench trial that he simply

possessed but did not otherwise use the gun Then the

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Supreme Court holds that that isnt enough under the

statute So now the State wants to argue because the

proceeding on appeal or whatever is still going on we

want a second shot at this we want to show he did more

than simply possess Is the State bound by what it

previously lost on or can the State -- can he get a

second shot

MR MIZER The answer is that the State is

not bound for two reasons the first relating to issue

preclusion and the second relating to the double

jeopardy doctrine in Ashe On issue preclusion the --

the finding with respect to the gun doesnt carry

preclusive effect because this Court said in --

Sunnen and other cases that when there is a change in

legal consequences that change is enough to prevent the

operation of preclusive rules

But on the double jeopardy doctrine --

JUSTICE BREYER Im not -- Im not going to

go into double jeopardy I dont think necessarily that

its double jeopardy that -- that is relevant here But

I have a -- have you run into this in a different

context They wouldnt use the word double jeopardy

It would be some kind of due process problem Maybe

there isnt a problem Have you run in your research to

anything like what I described

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MR MIZER No Your Honor because it is

important to remember that this is -- this is a double

jeopardy case because of Ashe and because this is in

Federal habeas

With respect to your question about due

process or -- or other rules aside from due process

its possible that the State could have more expansive

common law or State law interpretations of the

collateral estoppel rules and maybe those would benefit

the defendant This Court in -- in the Hoag case

declined to use due process to incorporate collateral

estoppel rules constitutionally So in your case the

defendant would only be left with the hope that the

State would have more expansive collateral estoppel

rules

But to return to Ashe the defendant here is

claiming that he is entitled to a constitutionalized

version of collateral estoppel because of Ashe but hes

not entitled to that protection because Ashe applies

only where a defendant has previously been acquitted

and he has not

It also applies only in a case where the

defendant is facing a successive jeopardy of some sort

Now Mr Biess sentence is -- is surely at issue in

this case but its at issue in the sense that it would

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be at issue in say a direct appeal Its only --

there has only been one prosecution The State has only

taken one crack at convicting him or imposing a

sentence and that one sentence is whats at issue here

And so there is not anything successive

about this case and so the Double Jeopardy Clause

either through the put-in-jeopardy text or through the

acquittal requirement simply has nothing to offer Mr

Bies in the way of assistance

JUSTICE ALITO Could I ask you about --

about exhaustion What should we do about exhaustion

here I take it you dont -- youre not waiving

exhaustion

MR MIZER Your Honor were not contending

that the Ashe claim is unexhausted We agree that

thats exhausted because in the Ohio courts it is not

permissible to take an interlocutory appeal when a

double jeopardy claim has been denied as it was in this

case

And so we are fine with the Sixth Circuit

precedent that holds that in that case the Federal

courts can act in habeas to prevent exposure to a double

jeopardy We simply maintain that there is no second

jeopardy here But the Atkins claim itself is

unexhausted and the Federal magistrate that first dealt

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

1323 145 227 345 aware 211825 Biess 322276 3021 41820 108 1415 am 113 32 1313 1624act 1722

Amendment-r 1913 31322 459 2319 2925acting 211 1318 3124 32111 358 4217actual 2519 BAmerican 618 382 421218 4318287

B 2417analysis 31016 4222 437 binding 2713adaptive 517 back 522 135261 3924 arguments 2915621 816

182 192announced 4215 Blume 117 25additional 378 271625 40222822 Ashe 31725 42 19121315adequate 195

balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

balancing 1461717 232020 1715 2217 2419 251114adjudicate 322 bar 84 37112720 296 272511 2523 26222administer 421

42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

30124110 aside 166 3011 31515admit 3721 bases 3910appeals 206 asked 3816 3123 321222adopt 4112 basis 1918 2022321 287 3999 33121822adopted 356

2110 35913372 asking 3317 3417 352adversarial 109 3623 394APPEARAN assert 308 36219 3724199

beginning 47114 assistance 179 38917 392adversary 101 behalf 11617appellate 920 Association 618 40817 417AEDPA 321

2469 36925 103519 assume 381 4116affirmance 123 1914 42131212 2310 assumed 304 Bobby 13 34affirmed 712

behoove 89Appendix 510 assuming 418 borderline 620affords 144 believe 37131020 1812 Atkin 201515 3614 4318aggravating

411738922 Atkins 31317 borne 198111320 124 bench 1424applicable 305 32023 422 bound 15591213 139 benefit 423305 523 63 710 bounding 1412613 3615

169application 41 82 11514 brand 3219422 BENJAMIN4024 1471116 3324 345aggravation

115 238 35applied 2816 1724 184 brand-new2312 374 42124310 1979 2011 331718aggravator 923

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Breyer 1415 categorical 84 452 conclusion 310 convict 1422 1518 28421 3711 4219 clearly 2238 910 2223 319 291 313616 categorically 427 2411 373 convicting 173 325 4019 client 3378 conclusions conviction 3821

Breyers 333 category 2220 clinical 8378 1924 3610 4111 brief 4011 centers 324 81214 1412 conclusive 64 correct 91115

4221 certain 719 1922 20488 218 416 1014 2012 briefs 101920 certainly 2022 2022 2113 condition 3617 3115 broad 2017 364 clinicians 618 conduct 2216 counsel 1911 brother 2516 challenge 4012 close 620 conflicting 515 4210 457 Bullington 47 4424 Code 1222 consensus 4118 course 2319 burden 3510 chance 322 collateral 316 consequences court 1112 38 burdens 3510 change 151415 42 1691114 1515 2216 31221 4713

changed 3713 1618 2810 consequential 414 51710C 4021 4218 301215 317 4219 616 71112

C 115 2138 characterizati 3120 consider 2517 724 1016 315 4212 249 2520 Columbus 115 considerations 115624 121

call 3616 charge 1214 combination 2424 1212 13312called 513 charged 1215 321222 considered 131619 1422

401523 1220 combined 2219 1825 15113 1610 capital 301625 Chief 337 299 Considering 181331121 care 251 3518 191115 2912 come 522 822 725 19116 2012 careful 87 2917 302 825 107 258 consistent 321 2067 2114 carefully 55 361120 4210 4423 181416 197 23192021

621 457 comes 923 336 246171720 carry 1512 Circuit 1311 2722 Constitution 2567 2717 case 31524 142 1720 coming 3218 3191219 272123 2811

4111223 2111 438 commits 311 3715 4120 2914 3022 524 620 819 456 committed constitutionali 3321 3416 82022 1219 Circuits 435 3523 83 1617 3620 3712614111921 4313 common 168 constitutionally 371923 3810 163101222 circumstances 2920 1612 197 3912 4024 1625 17619 231416 2413 compelling 391 411824 439 1721 18125 2613 422 3615 contained 52 4321 444 1822 1919 claim 323 1715 completely 77 contending 451 21418 231 171824 3711 conceded 3717 1714 courts 322 716 259 2722 3916 4099 3815 4122 contest 101 718 920 105 2824 291 40171818 conception 3657 371 113 1716223110 3358 41782223 2017 contesting 3625 2321 2614 342 35322 422 concerns 254 context 49 778 courts 319 52 366121417 claimed 386 concession 1410 1522 123 1824 4316 45189 claiming 1617 3821 391823 2245 3036 1920 221112

cases 1514 241 clarifying 4324 3925 4010 30161925 2219 3624 26379 2955 clause 311 176 4324 34141423 3712 4020 3015 322 2623 301013 concessions 379 428 4316 3621 376 3114 397 4216 continuing 101 crack 173

catch-all 131 clear 616 402 concluded 57 contrary 286 creates 2213

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credible 2915 3819 411 201620 2425 1522 162 1619 crime 351823 4325 4420 4415 1761822 entitles 3112 crimes 3024 defendants 43 determined 139 3091216 equivalent 296 criminal 225 defendants 1920 203 3113 3220 ESQ 11517 23

2919 3018 2713 2218 248 doubt 125 258 3314 defense 338 2712 1311 276 essence 2215

defined 48 developments Dr 551118 essential 2323 D defining 84 4117 1218 1812 essentially 295

D 31 definition 534 difference 799 1921 204 establishingdaily 518 61215 716 24616 3520 357 2910 3511 dangerousness 718 1922 different 614 drawn 202022 estoppel 316

1110 20481624 77 82 93 drugs 1423 43 1691214DAVID 13 2113 229 1521 258 due 1523 1656 1618 301215de 106 2922 3214 341419 3515 1611 3678 3825 3939deal 1015 3556 432 3613 373 DC 18 391516 426 dealing 216 definitional 407 4418 42152224

E3614 4220 difficulty 402 evaluated 369 dealt 1725 E 21 311 definitions 52 direct 10719 Everythingsdeath 45910 earlier 44 819 definitively 1021 1313 2812

410121421 early 8221817 171 378 evidence 5111562 924 1117 easiest 1123demonstrated 4110 4317 71922 81 218172125 effect 144 1513 55 disagree 4419 1062224222425 236 2210 234denied 1718 disagreement 11710122522 2615 3215Denno 317 325 121623 1321 2921 3118 effectively 82depending 329 discover 3120 181420233315 3521 Eighth 131823describe 2310 discretion 141 1925 203 3623 37514 145 418192421 2521 discussion 1917 2317 296 401219 either 89 177 described 1525 disease 1225 3191117

decided 318 2413 29182323 dismissed 396 3517 368211919 2511 3017 3314describes 239 dispositive 820 3625 4410 271922 3422 elements 535describing 325 824 913 452 3513 3911 3413 4414designed 2424 3925 exactly 2020

decision 319 453determination disproportion 259 2824 52 1117 elevate 261658 8222325 375 example 242 1822 191921 embraced 411999 124 1924 disproportion 2819 21412 2212 embracing2122 2336 3714 excerpts 1020 221219 299 2113261417 3213 dispute 324 excluded 718 3624 3713 enacting 42193223 3357 disregarded excuse 418 4020 engage 23113539 439 438 execute 3410

declined 1611 engaged 106454 distortion 4321 4120 423 defect 1225 ensure 195determinations doctrine 1511 executed 2214 defendant 525 enters 37192123 1517 446

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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given

MR MIZER And --

JUSTICE KENNEDY And that that issue ie

the level of IQ cannot be relitigated the number

MR MIZER And the answer to that is no

Your Honor for issue preclusive purposes because the

issue is completely different in the mitigation context

from the post-Atkins context And I think that

difference is highlighted by the difference between

Penry and Atkins Pre-Atkins what the sentencer was

talking about the jury and then the Ohio Supreme Court

when it affirmed was what this Court told it to talk

about in Penry

It was talking about mental retardation as a

mitigating factor and the State of Ohio and the Ohio

courts had to know the definition of mental

retardation pre-Atkins In fact I think if there had

been a definition and if the courts had excluded

evidence from the jury that didnt rise to a certain

level of severity then we would have run into a -- a

post -- a Penry and Tennard problem And so all of the

evidence was allowed in and it was treated as

mitigating

And so what the Ohio Supreme Court was doing

was what Penry told it to do Considering mitigating

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evidence of mental retardation But post-Atkins the

inquiries are different because Atkins effectively

constitutionalized a clinical judgment in making -- in

defining a categorical bar on executing the mentally

retarded

And so post-Atkins it is necessary to be

very careful about the clinical judgment and this

record does not suffice for that clinical judgment And

I think it -- think it does not behoove either party to

suggest that the record --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well when you say the

clinical judgment you mean the specific finding of a

65 IQ

MR MIZER The -- the clinical judgment

that I refer to Your Honor is that required by -- by

Lott It looks not only at IQ but also at the adaptive

skills limitation

JUSTICE SOUTER Okay I grant you that

under -- under the earlier case the 65 IQ was not

dispositive and I mean that was the -- the case in

Justice Kennedys hypothetical But it was necessary

under the early case to come to a determination of what

the IQ was even though that determination was not

dispositive of the result And because it was necessary

to come to a determination why shouldnt there be a

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preclusion

MR MIZER Because Your Honor I think

there are two different meanings of necessary It was

-- it was necessary in the sense that it had to be done

but it wasnt necessary in the issue preclusive offense

because it -- it was --

JUSTICE SOUTER It wasnt necessary to

reach that particular -- in other words the

determination of 65 was not necessary to reach the

conclusion that they reached

MR MIZER Correct

JUSTICE SOUTER And you -- you are saying

the very fact that it was not dispositive of the result

means that it cannot be preclusive now

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor

JUSTICE SOUTER Okay

MR MIZER And -- and --

JUSTICE GINSBURG May I ask how it worked

pre-Atkins when mental retardation was a mitigator We

are told that the appellate courts independently

reviewed We have a finding at the trial level that

yes there is a mitigator mental retardation but it

doesnt overcome the aggravator so the jury comes in

with a death sentence

Then at the appellate level is there a

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continuing adversary contest about whether retardation

exists and therefore is a mitigator or is it just the

-- the judge the appellate judge looking over the

record that has been made at trial

MR MIZER The -- the appellate courts

engaged in a de novo record and new -- new evidence

doesnt come into the record on direct review But

there is still argument -- the parties are still in an

adversarial posture

JUSTICE GINSBURG So -- so that the

prosecutor could still argue that was unreasonable for

them to find mental retardation so there shouldnt be

that mitigator

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor but

there wasnt at the time a -- a great deal of incentive

to litigate that question because the Ohio Supreme Court

had said that mental retardation only merited some

weight in mitigation And in fact the -- the

appellate briefs on direct review are in the Joint

Appendix and -- excerpts of those briefs And Mr Bies

himself on direct review didnt vigorously argue his

mental retardation evidence In fact he said that the

arguably in his words the most persuasive

mitigating evidence was his lack of a prior record and

his lack of prior violent history

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And so none of the parties thought that

mental retardation in 1992 through 1996 was very

persuasive because the courts didnt treat it and the

jury didnt treat it as very persuasive Perhaps for the

reasons that this Court underscored in Atkins where the

Court said that as it had said in Penry that mental

retardation evidence presented to a jury in mitigation

could be a two-edged sword because some jurors might

perceive and the prosecutor might argue that that

evidence went to future dangerousness and therefore the

-- the State of Ohio argued that the mental retardation

evidence here was simply not persuasive and it was

outweighed by the -- the aggravating factors that the

jury had found Atkins told the --

JUSTICE STEVENS May I interrupt right

there Mr Mizer Is it fair to interpret the jurys

decision to impose the death penalty as having found

that he was not mentally retarded and therefore was not

a mitigating factor or that even though he was -- a

mitigating factor the aggravating factors outweighed

that factor

MR MIZER I think Your Honor that its

fairest and the record thats easiest to go by is what

the Ohio Supreme Court said because the jury didnt

make any specific remarks about mental retardation as a

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mitigator the Ohio Supreme Court did

But the -- the jurys verdict and then the

Ohio Supreme Courts affirmance should best be read as a

determination that the aggravating factors outweigh the

mitigating factors beyond a reasonable doubt and that

mental retardation was one of those mitigating factors

But it should not be read as a mini-verdict on the

existence of or the question of whether Mr Bies is

mentally retarded Because --

JUSTICE GINSBURG If they didnt make a

finding on mental retardation how -- how could the

appellate court determine that it was a mitigator but

overwhelmed by the aggravating -- what did the judge

charge the jury about mitigators and aggravators

MR MIZER The judge charged the jury that

-- first of all Your Honor the mitigating evidence

introduced by Mr Bies was not extensive He -- he

introduced an unsworn statement by himself and then Dr

Winter testified and that was the extent of the case in

mitigation So the jury was charged with the various

statutory mitigating factors in Ohio which is found in

Ohio Revised Code 292904

The mental retardation evidence was relevant

under two of those mitigating statutory factors one

factor 3 which went to mental disease or defect and

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then the catch-all factor 7 But the -- but I think

Poland helps to illuminate what the -- not only what the

jury was doing but also what the Ohio Supreme Court was

doing when it --

JUSTICE GINSBURG First go back to the

jury How do we know that the jury found mental

retardation as a mitigator

MR MIZER We dont Your Honor All that

we know is that the jury determined that the aggravating

factors outweighed the mitigators beyond a reasonable

doubt What we do know and what the Sixth Circuit hung

its hat on was the statement by the Ohio Supreme Court

on direct review that Mr Biess mental retardation

merits weight in mitigation

Poland explains that that -- that statement

by the Ohio Supreme Court should not be treated as a

mini-verdict on the mitigating factor but instead it

should be read as an Eighth Amendment-required marking

of the guidepost the very guidepost that this Court in

Penry said must be marked the relevance of mitigating

evidence of mental retardation

But -- but Poland says its wrong to think

of that marking of that Eighth Amendment guidepost as a

mini-verdict on mental retardation and instead it

should just be thought of as one of the factors that was

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bounding the discretion of the sentencer And so Poland

instructs that Mr Bies and the Sixth Circuit are wrong

to think of mental retardation as actually having been

found in some sense that affords preclusive effect

because instead it was just an Eighth Amendment

balancing

And instead what Atkins tells us is that the

State of Ohio just as the States were given the

opportunity after Ford v Wainwright in the insanity

context should be given the opportunity for the very

first time in this case to implement Atkins to

determine given clinical expert judgment whether or

not Mr Bies is in fact mentally retarded under the

three-part --

JUSTICE BREYER I understand the argument

that the issues are not quite the same that the Atkins

issue of mental retardation is not quite the same as the

issue that was litigated Lets try and get that out of

the case I think thats where Justice Kennedy was

going

Suppose it was a gun case and the Supreme

Court originally thought you could convict people who

sell drugs of simple possession of a gun Theres a

finding because its a bench trial that he simply

possessed but did not otherwise use the gun Then the

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Supreme Court holds that that isnt enough under the

statute So now the State wants to argue because the

proceeding on appeal or whatever is still going on we

want a second shot at this we want to show he did more

than simply possess Is the State bound by what it

previously lost on or can the State -- can he get a

second shot

MR MIZER The answer is that the State is

not bound for two reasons the first relating to issue

preclusion and the second relating to the double

jeopardy doctrine in Ashe On issue preclusion the --

the finding with respect to the gun doesnt carry

preclusive effect because this Court said in --

Sunnen and other cases that when there is a change in

legal consequences that change is enough to prevent the

operation of preclusive rules

But on the double jeopardy doctrine --

JUSTICE BREYER Im not -- Im not going to

go into double jeopardy I dont think necessarily that

its double jeopardy that -- that is relevant here But

I have a -- have you run into this in a different

context They wouldnt use the word double jeopardy

It would be some kind of due process problem Maybe

there isnt a problem Have you run in your research to

anything like what I described

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MR MIZER No Your Honor because it is

important to remember that this is -- this is a double

jeopardy case because of Ashe and because this is in

Federal habeas

With respect to your question about due

process or -- or other rules aside from due process

its possible that the State could have more expansive

common law or State law interpretations of the

collateral estoppel rules and maybe those would benefit

the defendant This Court in -- in the Hoag case

declined to use due process to incorporate collateral

estoppel rules constitutionally So in your case the

defendant would only be left with the hope that the

State would have more expansive collateral estoppel

rules

But to return to Ashe the defendant here is

claiming that he is entitled to a constitutionalized

version of collateral estoppel because of Ashe but hes

not entitled to that protection because Ashe applies

only where a defendant has previously been acquitted

and he has not

It also applies only in a case where the

defendant is facing a successive jeopardy of some sort

Now Mr Biess sentence is -- is surely at issue in

this case but its at issue in the sense that it would

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be at issue in say a direct appeal Its only --

there has only been one prosecution The State has only

taken one crack at convicting him or imposing a

sentence and that one sentence is whats at issue here

And so there is not anything successive

about this case and so the Double Jeopardy Clause

either through the put-in-jeopardy text or through the

acquittal requirement simply has nothing to offer Mr

Bies in the way of assistance

JUSTICE ALITO Could I ask you about --

about exhaustion What should we do about exhaustion

here I take it you dont -- youre not waiving

exhaustion

MR MIZER Your Honor were not contending

that the Ashe claim is unexhausted We agree that

thats exhausted because in the Ohio courts it is not

permissible to take an interlocutory appeal when a

double jeopardy claim has been denied as it was in this

case

And so we are fine with the Sixth Circuit

precedent that holds that in that case the Federal

courts can act in habeas to prevent exposure to a double

jeopardy We simply maintain that there is no second

jeopardy here But the Atkins claim itself is

unexhausted and the Federal magistrate that first dealt

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

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42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

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credible 2915 3819 411 201620 2425 1522 162 1619 crime 351823 4325 4420 4415 1761822 entitles 3112 crimes 3024 defendants 43 determined 139 3091216 equivalent 296 criminal 225 defendants 1920 203 3113 3220 ESQ 11517 23

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judgment 8378161923 441017 457 2021 mental 420 54 88121418912 195 lines 39 520 61217

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2525 2813 opinion 205 parties 3253457 424 1322 141 noted 4216 2111 108 11165710 725 posed 4413 novo 106 opinions 1923 party 89 2120 814 921115 position 189 number 74 247 opportunity 2618917 10514 2925 443

2411 252021 14910 passages 3917111622 1215 positions 403 265 354 oral 111 22 35 penalty 45921138 158 161 possess 155 3620 3734 1913 1117 2181714 181020 possessed 1425

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

311 510 183 4217 put 4025 27 4212 1512 165 18111525 primarily 392 put-in-jeopardy recites 4419 307 4214 191 37910 prior 102425 177 recognize 420 Respondent 3719 387 22716 248 recognized 118 26 1914

Q4012 439 2411 3023 3620 responding 425 question 5234415 451 364 record 423 56 response 244

1016 128posture 109 problem 721 51622 8810 2418 333 165 1812226 3424 152324 285 1046724 3716 3818 2221 245post-Atkins 58 4371115 1123 181423 412123265 30714613 78 816 problems 437 3022 371724 result 824 913 334 35252112 432 4312 381219 3916 2513 3121 365 393 421 449 procedural 224 4025 432525 retardation 420 4324 44812post-conviction 226 3424 4420 452 5420 61317 441357 procedure 2825 refer 815 619 71417

questions 186precedent 1721 3225 341220 reference 64 81 91922426 455precise 2518 342125 355 392021 101121722

quite 141617precisely 344 proceed 2821 referred 3918 11271125407preclude 349 proceeding 63 regard 408 1261123

precluded 222 153 201 regarded 411 137132124Rprecludes 323 2218 2318 regardless 2023 14317 1923 R 31preclusion 419 24812 252 relating 61213 205791618raise 3825 392 91 151011 2810 2916 15910 21771424

39121421171819 318 3216 relevance 1320 22791424raised 247 393 221 261910 387 444 relevant 1223 2322 2439

3982913 306 proceedings 1520 2612 2717raises 3710322101121 1815 relief 4366 2817 301 ran 3713311 3516 process 1523 relitigated 74 311 3214reach 989 372 3824 166611 199 remaining 4211 341316 355 reached 910preclusive 611 prong 264 remains 1812 3571119reaching 352576 9514 144 proof 3510 remarks 1125 36522 3712 read 1237151316 234 properly 327 remedy 288 3717182225

1318 263241414 321 prosecution remember 162 392024 401 3015 4143246 172 364 render 2921 419212325

reading 262preponderance prosecutor rendering 1923 424 43218really 4252317 3512 1011 119 205 454 reason 424presented 117 35161821 reopen 2824 retarded 313

3322 3441925 protection 1619 reopened 669 417 85 1118 395prevent 1515 proven 243 611 129 1413

reasonable 3201722 psychiatrist repeated 3821 271821 3411 125 1310prevented 4313 1922 required 815 388131620438previously 156 psychologists 391 441521

reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

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221315 2910 serve 264 stakes 407 2211 2713S 322425 serves 264 stand 328 2916 3223S 21 31

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T 2113313 1125 3921 strikes 3611sentencing take 521 1712 run 720 1521 specifically 519 submitted 458301625

1717 34131524 spoke 51919 4510separate 39 taken 173 2315 stage 3018 subsequent 63serious 281

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3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

71114 2417 told 71225 understanding Washington 18 X2423 409 920 1114 2623 wasnt 957

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1819 358 3020 311113 1611 2415 3424 1102 113 32 text 177 358 444 uses 2610 weight 1018 1154 459Thank 1911 true 219 usually 2421 1314 4319 143 381818

42910 457 try 1418 went 1110 153 3810Vtheory 2822 trying 2421 1225 202 16 4222 v 15 149 241 304911 264 2515 160 3822 4324 272 3310things 2918 turns 2423 were 1714 18 4222vaguely 2923713 4021 3210 2113 241722 19 26various 12204112 4218 two 6711 93 314 40922 1992 112vastly 3515think 7817 89 1224 159 4114 1996 112verdict 12289 92 1122 247111823 weve 324 345 version 161813122 143 251 264 White 241 2 versus 34171419 1519 2918 374 win 272310 2009 19

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warden 13115three-part 1414 writ 395 4314 6271525 3910 understand432 wrong 1322

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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evidence of mental retardation But post-Atkins the

inquiries are different because Atkins effectively

constitutionalized a clinical judgment in making -- in

defining a categorical bar on executing the mentally

retarded

And so post-Atkins it is necessary to be

very careful about the clinical judgment and this

record does not suffice for that clinical judgment And

I think it -- think it does not behoove either party to

suggest that the record --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well when you say the

clinical judgment you mean the specific finding of a

65 IQ

MR MIZER The -- the clinical judgment

that I refer to Your Honor is that required by -- by

Lott It looks not only at IQ but also at the adaptive

skills limitation

JUSTICE SOUTER Okay I grant you that

under -- under the earlier case the 65 IQ was not

dispositive and I mean that was the -- the case in

Justice Kennedys hypothetical But it was necessary

under the early case to come to a determination of what

the IQ was even though that determination was not

dispositive of the result And because it was necessary

to come to a determination why shouldnt there be a

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preclusion

MR MIZER Because Your Honor I think

there are two different meanings of necessary It was

-- it was necessary in the sense that it had to be done

but it wasnt necessary in the issue preclusive offense

because it -- it was --

JUSTICE SOUTER It wasnt necessary to

reach that particular -- in other words the

determination of 65 was not necessary to reach the

conclusion that they reached

MR MIZER Correct

JUSTICE SOUTER And you -- you are saying

the very fact that it was not dispositive of the result

means that it cannot be preclusive now

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor

JUSTICE SOUTER Okay

MR MIZER And -- and --

JUSTICE GINSBURG May I ask how it worked

pre-Atkins when mental retardation was a mitigator We

are told that the appellate courts independently

reviewed We have a finding at the trial level that

yes there is a mitigator mental retardation but it

doesnt overcome the aggravator so the jury comes in

with a death sentence

Then at the appellate level is there a

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continuing adversary contest about whether retardation

exists and therefore is a mitigator or is it just the

-- the judge the appellate judge looking over the

record that has been made at trial

MR MIZER The -- the appellate courts

engaged in a de novo record and new -- new evidence

doesnt come into the record on direct review But

there is still argument -- the parties are still in an

adversarial posture

JUSTICE GINSBURG So -- so that the

prosecutor could still argue that was unreasonable for

them to find mental retardation so there shouldnt be

that mitigator

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor but

there wasnt at the time a -- a great deal of incentive

to litigate that question because the Ohio Supreme Court

had said that mental retardation only merited some

weight in mitigation And in fact the -- the

appellate briefs on direct review are in the Joint

Appendix and -- excerpts of those briefs And Mr Bies

himself on direct review didnt vigorously argue his

mental retardation evidence In fact he said that the

arguably in his words the most persuasive

mitigating evidence was his lack of a prior record and

his lack of prior violent history

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And so none of the parties thought that

mental retardation in 1992 through 1996 was very

persuasive because the courts didnt treat it and the

jury didnt treat it as very persuasive Perhaps for the

reasons that this Court underscored in Atkins where the

Court said that as it had said in Penry that mental

retardation evidence presented to a jury in mitigation

could be a two-edged sword because some jurors might

perceive and the prosecutor might argue that that

evidence went to future dangerousness and therefore the

-- the State of Ohio argued that the mental retardation

evidence here was simply not persuasive and it was

outweighed by the -- the aggravating factors that the

jury had found Atkins told the --

JUSTICE STEVENS May I interrupt right

there Mr Mizer Is it fair to interpret the jurys

decision to impose the death penalty as having found

that he was not mentally retarded and therefore was not

a mitigating factor or that even though he was -- a

mitigating factor the aggravating factors outweighed

that factor

MR MIZER I think Your Honor that its

fairest and the record thats easiest to go by is what

the Ohio Supreme Court said because the jury didnt

make any specific remarks about mental retardation as a

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mitigator the Ohio Supreme Court did

But the -- the jurys verdict and then the

Ohio Supreme Courts affirmance should best be read as a

determination that the aggravating factors outweigh the

mitigating factors beyond a reasonable doubt and that

mental retardation was one of those mitigating factors

But it should not be read as a mini-verdict on the

existence of or the question of whether Mr Bies is

mentally retarded Because --

JUSTICE GINSBURG If they didnt make a

finding on mental retardation how -- how could the

appellate court determine that it was a mitigator but

overwhelmed by the aggravating -- what did the judge

charge the jury about mitigators and aggravators

MR MIZER The judge charged the jury that

-- first of all Your Honor the mitigating evidence

introduced by Mr Bies was not extensive He -- he

introduced an unsworn statement by himself and then Dr

Winter testified and that was the extent of the case in

mitigation So the jury was charged with the various

statutory mitigating factors in Ohio which is found in

Ohio Revised Code 292904

The mental retardation evidence was relevant

under two of those mitigating statutory factors one

factor 3 which went to mental disease or defect and

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then the catch-all factor 7 But the -- but I think

Poland helps to illuminate what the -- not only what the

jury was doing but also what the Ohio Supreme Court was

doing when it --

JUSTICE GINSBURG First go back to the

jury How do we know that the jury found mental

retardation as a mitigator

MR MIZER We dont Your Honor All that

we know is that the jury determined that the aggravating

factors outweighed the mitigators beyond a reasonable

doubt What we do know and what the Sixth Circuit hung

its hat on was the statement by the Ohio Supreme Court

on direct review that Mr Biess mental retardation

merits weight in mitigation

Poland explains that that -- that statement

by the Ohio Supreme Court should not be treated as a

mini-verdict on the mitigating factor but instead it

should be read as an Eighth Amendment-required marking

of the guidepost the very guidepost that this Court in

Penry said must be marked the relevance of mitigating

evidence of mental retardation

But -- but Poland says its wrong to think

of that marking of that Eighth Amendment guidepost as a

mini-verdict on mental retardation and instead it

should just be thought of as one of the factors that was

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bounding the discretion of the sentencer And so Poland

instructs that Mr Bies and the Sixth Circuit are wrong

to think of mental retardation as actually having been

found in some sense that affords preclusive effect

because instead it was just an Eighth Amendment

balancing

And instead what Atkins tells us is that the

State of Ohio just as the States were given the

opportunity after Ford v Wainwright in the insanity

context should be given the opportunity for the very

first time in this case to implement Atkins to

determine given clinical expert judgment whether or

not Mr Bies is in fact mentally retarded under the

three-part --

JUSTICE BREYER I understand the argument

that the issues are not quite the same that the Atkins

issue of mental retardation is not quite the same as the

issue that was litigated Lets try and get that out of

the case I think thats where Justice Kennedy was

going

Suppose it was a gun case and the Supreme

Court originally thought you could convict people who

sell drugs of simple possession of a gun Theres a

finding because its a bench trial that he simply

possessed but did not otherwise use the gun Then the

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Supreme Court holds that that isnt enough under the

statute So now the State wants to argue because the

proceeding on appeal or whatever is still going on we

want a second shot at this we want to show he did more

than simply possess Is the State bound by what it

previously lost on or can the State -- can he get a

second shot

MR MIZER The answer is that the State is

not bound for two reasons the first relating to issue

preclusion and the second relating to the double

jeopardy doctrine in Ashe On issue preclusion the --

the finding with respect to the gun doesnt carry

preclusive effect because this Court said in --

Sunnen and other cases that when there is a change in

legal consequences that change is enough to prevent the

operation of preclusive rules

But on the double jeopardy doctrine --

JUSTICE BREYER Im not -- Im not going to

go into double jeopardy I dont think necessarily that

its double jeopardy that -- that is relevant here But

I have a -- have you run into this in a different

context They wouldnt use the word double jeopardy

It would be some kind of due process problem Maybe

there isnt a problem Have you run in your research to

anything like what I described

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MR MIZER No Your Honor because it is

important to remember that this is -- this is a double

jeopardy case because of Ashe and because this is in

Federal habeas

With respect to your question about due

process or -- or other rules aside from due process

its possible that the State could have more expansive

common law or State law interpretations of the

collateral estoppel rules and maybe those would benefit

the defendant This Court in -- in the Hoag case

declined to use due process to incorporate collateral

estoppel rules constitutionally So in your case the

defendant would only be left with the hope that the

State would have more expansive collateral estoppel

rules

But to return to Ashe the defendant here is

claiming that he is entitled to a constitutionalized

version of collateral estoppel because of Ashe but hes

not entitled to that protection because Ashe applies

only where a defendant has previously been acquitted

and he has not

It also applies only in a case where the

defendant is facing a successive jeopardy of some sort

Now Mr Biess sentence is -- is surely at issue in

this case but its at issue in the sense that it would

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be at issue in say a direct appeal Its only --

there has only been one prosecution The State has only

taken one crack at convicting him or imposing a

sentence and that one sentence is whats at issue here

And so there is not anything successive

about this case and so the Double Jeopardy Clause

either through the put-in-jeopardy text or through the

acquittal requirement simply has nothing to offer Mr

Bies in the way of assistance

JUSTICE ALITO Could I ask you about --

about exhaustion What should we do about exhaustion

here I take it you dont -- youre not waiving

exhaustion

MR MIZER Your Honor were not contending

that the Ashe claim is unexhausted We agree that

thats exhausted because in the Ohio courts it is not

permissible to take an interlocutory appeal when a

double jeopardy claim has been denied as it was in this

case

And so we are fine with the Sixth Circuit

precedent that holds that in that case the Federal

courts can act in habeas to prevent exposure to a double

jeopardy We simply maintain that there is no second

jeopardy here But the Atkins claim itself is

unexhausted and the Federal magistrate that first dealt

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

1323 145 227 345 aware 211825 Biess 322276 3021 41820 108 1415 am 113 32 1313 1624act 1722

Amendment-r 1913 31322 459 2319 2925acting 211 1318 3124 32111 358 4217actual 2519 BAmerican 618 382 421218 4318287

B 2417analysis 31016 4222 437 binding 2713adaptive 517 back 522 135261 3924 arguments 2915621 816

182 192announced 4215 Blume 117 25additional 378 271625 40222822 Ashe 31725 42 19121315adequate 195

balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

balancing 1461717 232020 1715 2217 2419 251114adjudicate 322 bar 84 37112720 296 272511 2523 26222administer 421

42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

30124110 aside 166 3011 31515admit 3721 bases 3910appeals 206 asked 3816 3123 321222adopt 4112 basis 1918 2022321 287 3999 33121822adopted 356

2110 35913372 asking 3317 3417 352adversarial 109 3623 394APPEARAN assert 308 36219 3724199

beginning 47114 assistance 179 38917 392adversary 101 behalf 11617appellate 920 Association 618 40817 417AEDPA 321

2469 36925 103519 assume 381 4116affirmance 123 1914 42131212 2310 assumed 304 Bobby 13 34affirmed 712

behoove 89Appendix 510 assuming 418 borderline 620affords 144 believe 37131020 1812 Atkin 201515 3614 4318aggravating

411738922 Atkins 31317 borne 198111320 124 bench 1424applicable 305 32023 422 bound 15591213 139 benefit 423305 523 63 710 bounding 1412613 3615

169application 41 82 11514 brand 3219422 BENJAMIN4024 1471116 3324 345aggravation

115 238 35applied 2816 1724 184 brand-new2312 374 42124310 1979 2011 331718aggravator 923

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65 525 625 81319 99

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preclusion

MR MIZER Because Your Honor I think

there are two different meanings of necessary It was

-- it was necessary in the sense that it had to be done

but it wasnt necessary in the issue preclusive offense

because it -- it was --

JUSTICE SOUTER It wasnt necessary to

reach that particular -- in other words the

determination of 65 was not necessary to reach the

conclusion that they reached

MR MIZER Correct

JUSTICE SOUTER And you -- you are saying

the very fact that it was not dispositive of the result

means that it cannot be preclusive now

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor

JUSTICE SOUTER Okay

MR MIZER And -- and --

JUSTICE GINSBURG May I ask how it worked

pre-Atkins when mental retardation was a mitigator We

are told that the appellate courts independently

reviewed We have a finding at the trial level that

yes there is a mitigator mental retardation but it

doesnt overcome the aggravator so the jury comes in

with a death sentence

Then at the appellate level is there a

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continuing adversary contest about whether retardation

exists and therefore is a mitigator or is it just the

-- the judge the appellate judge looking over the

record that has been made at trial

MR MIZER The -- the appellate courts

engaged in a de novo record and new -- new evidence

doesnt come into the record on direct review But

there is still argument -- the parties are still in an

adversarial posture

JUSTICE GINSBURG So -- so that the

prosecutor could still argue that was unreasonable for

them to find mental retardation so there shouldnt be

that mitigator

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor but

there wasnt at the time a -- a great deal of incentive

to litigate that question because the Ohio Supreme Court

had said that mental retardation only merited some

weight in mitigation And in fact the -- the

appellate briefs on direct review are in the Joint

Appendix and -- excerpts of those briefs And Mr Bies

himself on direct review didnt vigorously argue his

mental retardation evidence In fact he said that the

arguably in his words the most persuasive

mitigating evidence was his lack of a prior record and

his lack of prior violent history

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And so none of the parties thought that

mental retardation in 1992 through 1996 was very

persuasive because the courts didnt treat it and the

jury didnt treat it as very persuasive Perhaps for the

reasons that this Court underscored in Atkins where the

Court said that as it had said in Penry that mental

retardation evidence presented to a jury in mitigation

could be a two-edged sword because some jurors might

perceive and the prosecutor might argue that that

evidence went to future dangerousness and therefore the

-- the State of Ohio argued that the mental retardation

evidence here was simply not persuasive and it was

outweighed by the -- the aggravating factors that the

jury had found Atkins told the --

JUSTICE STEVENS May I interrupt right

there Mr Mizer Is it fair to interpret the jurys

decision to impose the death penalty as having found

that he was not mentally retarded and therefore was not

a mitigating factor or that even though he was -- a

mitigating factor the aggravating factors outweighed

that factor

MR MIZER I think Your Honor that its

fairest and the record thats easiest to go by is what

the Ohio Supreme Court said because the jury didnt

make any specific remarks about mental retardation as a

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mitigator the Ohio Supreme Court did

But the -- the jurys verdict and then the

Ohio Supreme Courts affirmance should best be read as a

determination that the aggravating factors outweigh the

mitigating factors beyond a reasonable doubt and that

mental retardation was one of those mitigating factors

But it should not be read as a mini-verdict on the

existence of or the question of whether Mr Bies is

mentally retarded Because --

JUSTICE GINSBURG If they didnt make a

finding on mental retardation how -- how could the

appellate court determine that it was a mitigator but

overwhelmed by the aggravating -- what did the judge

charge the jury about mitigators and aggravators

MR MIZER The judge charged the jury that

-- first of all Your Honor the mitigating evidence

introduced by Mr Bies was not extensive He -- he

introduced an unsworn statement by himself and then Dr

Winter testified and that was the extent of the case in

mitigation So the jury was charged with the various

statutory mitigating factors in Ohio which is found in

Ohio Revised Code 292904

The mental retardation evidence was relevant

under two of those mitigating statutory factors one

factor 3 which went to mental disease or defect and

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then the catch-all factor 7 But the -- but I think

Poland helps to illuminate what the -- not only what the

jury was doing but also what the Ohio Supreme Court was

doing when it --

JUSTICE GINSBURG First go back to the

jury How do we know that the jury found mental

retardation as a mitigator

MR MIZER We dont Your Honor All that

we know is that the jury determined that the aggravating

factors outweighed the mitigators beyond a reasonable

doubt What we do know and what the Sixth Circuit hung

its hat on was the statement by the Ohio Supreme Court

on direct review that Mr Biess mental retardation

merits weight in mitigation

Poland explains that that -- that statement

by the Ohio Supreme Court should not be treated as a

mini-verdict on the mitigating factor but instead it

should be read as an Eighth Amendment-required marking

of the guidepost the very guidepost that this Court in

Penry said must be marked the relevance of mitigating

evidence of mental retardation

But -- but Poland says its wrong to think

of that marking of that Eighth Amendment guidepost as a

mini-verdict on mental retardation and instead it

should just be thought of as one of the factors that was

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bounding the discretion of the sentencer And so Poland

instructs that Mr Bies and the Sixth Circuit are wrong

to think of mental retardation as actually having been

found in some sense that affords preclusive effect

because instead it was just an Eighth Amendment

balancing

And instead what Atkins tells us is that the

State of Ohio just as the States were given the

opportunity after Ford v Wainwright in the insanity

context should be given the opportunity for the very

first time in this case to implement Atkins to

determine given clinical expert judgment whether or

not Mr Bies is in fact mentally retarded under the

three-part --

JUSTICE BREYER I understand the argument

that the issues are not quite the same that the Atkins

issue of mental retardation is not quite the same as the

issue that was litigated Lets try and get that out of

the case I think thats where Justice Kennedy was

going

Suppose it was a gun case and the Supreme

Court originally thought you could convict people who

sell drugs of simple possession of a gun Theres a

finding because its a bench trial that he simply

possessed but did not otherwise use the gun Then the

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Supreme Court holds that that isnt enough under the

statute So now the State wants to argue because the

proceeding on appeal or whatever is still going on we

want a second shot at this we want to show he did more

than simply possess Is the State bound by what it

previously lost on or can the State -- can he get a

second shot

MR MIZER The answer is that the State is

not bound for two reasons the first relating to issue

preclusion and the second relating to the double

jeopardy doctrine in Ashe On issue preclusion the --

the finding with respect to the gun doesnt carry

preclusive effect because this Court said in --

Sunnen and other cases that when there is a change in

legal consequences that change is enough to prevent the

operation of preclusive rules

But on the double jeopardy doctrine --

JUSTICE BREYER Im not -- Im not going to

go into double jeopardy I dont think necessarily that

its double jeopardy that -- that is relevant here But

I have a -- have you run into this in a different

context They wouldnt use the word double jeopardy

It would be some kind of due process problem Maybe

there isnt a problem Have you run in your research to

anything like what I described

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MR MIZER No Your Honor because it is

important to remember that this is -- this is a double

jeopardy case because of Ashe and because this is in

Federal habeas

With respect to your question about due

process or -- or other rules aside from due process

its possible that the State could have more expansive

common law or State law interpretations of the

collateral estoppel rules and maybe those would benefit

the defendant This Court in -- in the Hoag case

declined to use due process to incorporate collateral

estoppel rules constitutionally So in your case the

defendant would only be left with the hope that the

State would have more expansive collateral estoppel

rules

But to return to Ashe the defendant here is

claiming that he is entitled to a constitutionalized

version of collateral estoppel because of Ashe but hes

not entitled to that protection because Ashe applies

only where a defendant has previously been acquitted

and he has not

It also applies only in a case where the

defendant is facing a successive jeopardy of some sort

Now Mr Biess sentence is -- is surely at issue in

this case but its at issue in the sense that it would

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be at issue in say a direct appeal Its only --

there has only been one prosecution The State has only

taken one crack at convicting him or imposing a

sentence and that one sentence is whats at issue here

And so there is not anything successive

about this case and so the Double Jeopardy Clause

either through the put-in-jeopardy text or through the

acquittal requirement simply has nothing to offer Mr

Bies in the way of assistance

JUSTICE ALITO Could I ask you about --

about exhaustion What should we do about exhaustion

here I take it you dont -- youre not waiving

exhaustion

MR MIZER Your Honor were not contending

that the Ashe claim is unexhausted We agree that

thats exhausted because in the Ohio courts it is not

permissible to take an interlocutory appeal when a

double jeopardy claim has been denied as it was in this

case

And so we are fine with the Sixth Circuit

precedent that holds that in that case the Federal

courts can act in habeas to prevent exposure to a double

jeopardy We simply maintain that there is no second

jeopardy here But the Atkins claim itself is

unexhausted and the Federal magistrate that first dealt

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

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allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

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balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

balancing 1461717 232020 1715 2217 2419 251114adjudicate 322 bar 84 37112720 296 272511 2523 26222administer 421

42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

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beginning 47114 assistance 179 38917 392adversary 101 behalf 11617appellate 920 Association 618 40817 417AEDPA 321

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behoove 89Appendix 510 assuming 418 borderline 620affords 144 believe 37131020 1812 Atkin 201515 3614 4318aggravating

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115 238 35applied 2816 1724 184 brand-new2312 374 42124310 1979 2011 331718aggravator 923

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judgment 8378161923 441017 457 2021 mental 420 54 88121418912 195 lines 39 520 61217

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merited 1017 Monday 19 ought 202021 Penry 71013Omerits 1314 motion 3818 outcome 2619 72125 116

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1519 2011 516 616 711 mistake 28811 1213 2613 371218252420 71515242816 3417 383 406 412

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181625 349141521 229 30142223 2312 4213 never 45 518 3423 355 3124 3215374 3924 place 331

3320 345 3625 37125 3534 3910 4011 4319 placing 2219 4310 371423 4120 panels 1918mitigator 417 4219

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2525 2813 opinion 205 parties 3253457 424 1322 141 noted 4216 2111 108 11165710 725 posed 4413 novo 106 opinions 1923 party 89 2120 814 921115 position 189 number 74 247 opportunity 2618917 10514 2925 443

2411 252021 14910 passages 3917111622 1215 positions 403 265 354 oral 111 22 35 penalty 45921138 158 161 possess 155 3620 3734 1913 1117 2181714 181020 possessed 1425

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

311 510 183 4217 put 4025 27 4212 1512 165 18111525 primarily 392 put-in-jeopardy recites 4419 307 4214 191 37910 prior 102425 177 recognize 420 Respondent 3719 387 22716 248 recognized 118 26 1914

Q4012 439 2411 3023 3620 responding 425 question 5234415 451 364 record 423 56 response 244

1016 128posture 109 problem 721 51622 8810 2418 333 165 1812226 3424 152324 285 1046724 3716 3818 2221 245post-Atkins 58 4371115 1123 181423 412123265 30714613 78 816 problems 437 3022 371724 result 824 913 334 35252112 432 4312 381219 3916 2513 3121 365 393 421 449 procedural 224 4025 432525 retardation 420 4324 44812post-conviction 226 3424 4420 452 5420 61317 441357 procedure 2825 refer 815 619 71417

questions 186precedent 1721 3225 341220 reference 64 81 91922426 455precise 2518 342125 355 392021 101121722

quite 141617precisely 344 proceed 2821 referred 3918 11271125407preclude 349 proceeding 63 regard 408 1261123

precluded 222 153 201 regarded 411 137132124Rprecludes 323 2218 2318 regardless 2023 14317 1923 R 31preclusion 419 24812 252 relating 61213 205791618raise 3825 392 91 151011 2810 2916 15910 21771424

39121421171819 318 3216 relevance 1320 22791424raised 247 393 221 261910 387 444 relevant 1223 2322 2439

3982913 306 proceedings 1520 2612 2717raises 3710322101121 1815 relief 4366 2817 301 ran 3713311 3516 process 1523 relitigated 74 311 3214reach 989 372 3824 166611 199 remaining 4211 341316 355 reached 910preclusive 611 prong 264 remains 1812 3571119reaching 352576 9514 144 proof 3510 remarks 1125 36522 3712 read 1237151316 234 properly 327 remedy 288 3717182225

1318 263241414 321 prosecution remember 162 392024 401 3015 4143246 172 364 render 2921 419212325

reading 262preponderance prosecutor rendering 1923 424 43218really 4252317 3512 1011 119 205 454 reason 424presented 117 35161821 reopen 2824 retarded 313

3322 3441925 protection 1619 reopened 669 417 85 1118 395prevent 1515 proven 243 611 129 1413

reasonable 3201722 psychiatrist repeated 3821 271821 3411 125 1310prevented 4313 1922 required 815 388131620438previously 156 psychologists 391 441521

reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

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221315 2910 serve 264 stakes 407 2211 2713S 322425 serves 264 stand 328 2916 3223S 21 31

return 1616 set 425 standard 425 subsequentlysake 382 reveals 371824 severe 4321 2318 4310 3023 4119Sam 3110

3819 411 severity 720 stands 327 subsidiarysatisfied 255 4325 4420 shape 341225 starting 2019 241013 334 Sattazahn 48

reverse 2723 shot 1547 283 state 41921 3372922 4321 456 show 422 154 510 715 substantial 517saying 912

review 10719 4411 1111 148 successive 315241221 2815 1021 1313 shown 3812 152568 167 1623 17531617 328 1825 2310 shows 319 16814 172 suffers 514163423 3923 254 4317 Shuffling 3110 189 193420 suffice 57 88 4013 431 4415 significance 1925 2419 sufficient 2923says 419 511

reviewed 921 238 252 3215 3412 311 4422524 1322 reviewing 414 3313 415 351 361025 suggest 810221317 272

2319 significant 514 3791016 suggested 36132717 288 Revised 1222 similar 312021 386771015 summarily3711 3811 reweighing simple 1423 3824 4024 27234111

2311 simply 1112 412224 4225 Sunnen 1514second 315 154 right 418 1115 1424 155 44425 support 43515710 1723

268 27415 17823 stated 2711 supports 2819328 338 311416 377 Sixth 1311 142 4221 451 suppose 5233624 4220

rise 719 1720 2111 statement 1218 1421 27104310 risk 371 435812 456 131215 414 Supreme 1112secondly 3919 ROBERTS 33 skills 51717 4216 4317 413 51 616 secure 3522

1911 2912 622 817 448111924 71124 1016 see 24516302 3611 sole 359 statements 286 1124 12132616 308 4210 457 Solicitor 115 States 1112 1331216seeing 402

role 2391024 somebody 276 148 2019 1421 151sell 1423 2623 sorry 610 3817 3420 3715 182124 207 sense 45 94

rule 43 2018 4116 4112 4220 2025 214144 1625 22131517 sort 1623 2920 States 3818 2319212524 2711 2817 3612 398 3918 403 2720 3416sentence 410 291020 329 4111 4215 439 372623924 1624 3219192021 SOUTER 811 statute 152 43161744 2117 322324 332 818 971216 statutory 1221 sure 3218 3913 2121 2320 33991017 201015 244 1224 3915254 2924 3319 34410 256121524 step 2312 surely 16243623 375143420 3125 3218 STEVENS Swenson 31740413 4320

rules 1516 166 332162024 1115 1818 41 272 3310 sentenced 62 1691215 343 3913 4323 441017 sword 118sentencer 49 3225 Souters 426 straight 422710 141 Truling 2914 specific 812 stretch 392222sentences 4025

T 2113313 1125 3921 strikes 3611sentencing take 521 1712 run 720 1521 specifically 519 submitted 458301625

1717 34131524 spoke 51919 4510separate 39 taken 173 2315 stage 3018 subsequent 63serious 281

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3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

71114 2417 told 71225 understanding Washington 18 X2423 409 920 1114 2623 wasnt 957

x 1274115 431 3814 unexhausted 1015 181418 technical 394 tomorrow 3217 171525 182 213 318 367 Ytechnically 297 tracking 4112 unique 226 401111 415

years 211tells 147 traditional 253 34135 421 yellow 4221ten 4211 3221 United 1112 way 179 2123

Tennard 721 treat 1134 3715 2223 235 0 terms 2712 treated 722 unreasonable 2539 324 08-598 15test 1819 1316 298 1011 1924 3525 testified 1219 trial 412 921 unsworn 1218 ways 2422 1

1813 104 1424 unusual 3224 4218 101 1811testifying 1921 1813 28912 urging 2116 weighed 2612 101a 59testimony 511 28121317 use 1425 1522 weighing 3415 104a 59 1811

1819 358 3020 311113 1611 2415 3424 1102 113 32 text 177 358 444 uses 2610 weight 1018 1154 459Thank 1911 true 219 usually 2421 1314 4319 143 381818

42910 457 try 1418 went 1110 153 3810Vtheory 2822 trying 2421 1225 202 16 4222 v 15 149 241 304911 264 2515 160 3822 4324 272 3310things 2918 turns 2423 were 1714 18 4222vaguely 2923713 4021 3210 2113 241722 19 26various 12204112 4218 two 6711 93 314 40922 1992 112vastly 3515think 7817 89 1224 159 4114 1996 112verdict 12289 92 1122 247111823 weve 324 345 version 161813122 143 251 264 White 241 2 versus 34171419 1519 2918 374 win 272310 2009 19

41 21112013 2110 40325 4218 winner 211719 2254(d)(1) 4314vigorously237 253 268 436 221 261025 2254(d)(2) 1919

10212711822 two-edged 118 Winter 5518 391112 434 violates 4181928101324 typical 224 1219 1921 4311violent 102529417 3014 204 357 27 19U virtually 369316 331822 Winters 1813 292904 1222

ultimate 2122352 36215 Winters 511W2125 222325 33619 39222 wishes 2415Wainwright2335 2410 427 won 2120 276 3 24 1225

1492614 273thinks 351622 277 3617waiving 1712 43525 361third 316 word 46 1522 want 521 1544 uncritically 42 29thought 111 words 98 1023

2822 291 23251325 1422 worked 918 5wants 152underlying 307three 39 5234 wouldnt 15223521 50 1819underscored36819 4414 308

warden 13115three-part 1414 writ 395 4314 6271525 3910 understand432 wrong 1322

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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continuing adversary contest about whether retardation

exists and therefore is a mitigator or is it just the

-- the judge the appellate judge looking over the

record that has been made at trial

MR MIZER The -- the appellate courts

engaged in a de novo record and new -- new evidence

doesnt come into the record on direct review But

there is still argument -- the parties are still in an

adversarial posture

JUSTICE GINSBURG So -- so that the

prosecutor could still argue that was unreasonable for

them to find mental retardation so there shouldnt be

that mitigator

MR MIZER Thats correct Your Honor but

there wasnt at the time a -- a great deal of incentive

to litigate that question because the Ohio Supreme Court

had said that mental retardation only merited some

weight in mitigation And in fact the -- the

appellate briefs on direct review are in the Joint

Appendix and -- excerpts of those briefs And Mr Bies

himself on direct review didnt vigorously argue his

mental retardation evidence In fact he said that the

arguably in his words the most persuasive

mitigating evidence was his lack of a prior record and

his lack of prior violent history

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And so none of the parties thought that

mental retardation in 1992 through 1996 was very

persuasive because the courts didnt treat it and the

jury didnt treat it as very persuasive Perhaps for the

reasons that this Court underscored in Atkins where the

Court said that as it had said in Penry that mental

retardation evidence presented to a jury in mitigation

could be a two-edged sword because some jurors might

perceive and the prosecutor might argue that that

evidence went to future dangerousness and therefore the

-- the State of Ohio argued that the mental retardation

evidence here was simply not persuasive and it was

outweighed by the -- the aggravating factors that the

jury had found Atkins told the --

JUSTICE STEVENS May I interrupt right

there Mr Mizer Is it fair to interpret the jurys

decision to impose the death penalty as having found

that he was not mentally retarded and therefore was not

a mitigating factor or that even though he was -- a

mitigating factor the aggravating factors outweighed

that factor

MR MIZER I think Your Honor that its

fairest and the record thats easiest to go by is what

the Ohio Supreme Court said because the jury didnt

make any specific remarks about mental retardation as a

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mitigator the Ohio Supreme Court did

But the -- the jurys verdict and then the

Ohio Supreme Courts affirmance should best be read as a

determination that the aggravating factors outweigh the

mitigating factors beyond a reasonable doubt and that

mental retardation was one of those mitigating factors

But it should not be read as a mini-verdict on the

existence of or the question of whether Mr Bies is

mentally retarded Because --

JUSTICE GINSBURG If they didnt make a

finding on mental retardation how -- how could the

appellate court determine that it was a mitigator but

overwhelmed by the aggravating -- what did the judge

charge the jury about mitigators and aggravators

MR MIZER The judge charged the jury that

-- first of all Your Honor the mitigating evidence

introduced by Mr Bies was not extensive He -- he

introduced an unsworn statement by himself and then Dr

Winter testified and that was the extent of the case in

mitigation So the jury was charged with the various

statutory mitigating factors in Ohio which is found in

Ohio Revised Code 292904

The mental retardation evidence was relevant

under two of those mitigating statutory factors one

factor 3 which went to mental disease or defect and

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then the catch-all factor 7 But the -- but I think

Poland helps to illuminate what the -- not only what the

jury was doing but also what the Ohio Supreme Court was

doing when it --

JUSTICE GINSBURG First go back to the

jury How do we know that the jury found mental

retardation as a mitigator

MR MIZER We dont Your Honor All that

we know is that the jury determined that the aggravating

factors outweighed the mitigators beyond a reasonable

doubt What we do know and what the Sixth Circuit hung

its hat on was the statement by the Ohio Supreme Court

on direct review that Mr Biess mental retardation

merits weight in mitigation

Poland explains that that -- that statement

by the Ohio Supreme Court should not be treated as a

mini-verdict on the mitigating factor but instead it

should be read as an Eighth Amendment-required marking

of the guidepost the very guidepost that this Court in

Penry said must be marked the relevance of mitigating

evidence of mental retardation

But -- but Poland says its wrong to think

of that marking of that Eighth Amendment guidepost as a

mini-verdict on mental retardation and instead it

should just be thought of as one of the factors that was

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bounding the discretion of the sentencer And so Poland

instructs that Mr Bies and the Sixth Circuit are wrong

to think of mental retardation as actually having been

found in some sense that affords preclusive effect

because instead it was just an Eighth Amendment

balancing

And instead what Atkins tells us is that the

State of Ohio just as the States were given the

opportunity after Ford v Wainwright in the insanity

context should be given the opportunity for the very

first time in this case to implement Atkins to

determine given clinical expert judgment whether or

not Mr Bies is in fact mentally retarded under the

three-part --

JUSTICE BREYER I understand the argument

that the issues are not quite the same that the Atkins

issue of mental retardation is not quite the same as the

issue that was litigated Lets try and get that out of

the case I think thats where Justice Kennedy was

going

Suppose it was a gun case and the Supreme

Court originally thought you could convict people who

sell drugs of simple possession of a gun Theres a

finding because its a bench trial that he simply

possessed but did not otherwise use the gun Then the

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Supreme Court holds that that isnt enough under the

statute So now the State wants to argue because the

proceeding on appeal or whatever is still going on we

want a second shot at this we want to show he did more

than simply possess Is the State bound by what it

previously lost on or can the State -- can he get a

second shot

MR MIZER The answer is that the State is

not bound for two reasons the first relating to issue

preclusion and the second relating to the double

jeopardy doctrine in Ashe On issue preclusion the --

the finding with respect to the gun doesnt carry

preclusive effect because this Court said in --

Sunnen and other cases that when there is a change in

legal consequences that change is enough to prevent the

operation of preclusive rules

But on the double jeopardy doctrine --

JUSTICE BREYER Im not -- Im not going to

go into double jeopardy I dont think necessarily that

its double jeopardy that -- that is relevant here But

I have a -- have you run into this in a different

context They wouldnt use the word double jeopardy

It would be some kind of due process problem Maybe

there isnt a problem Have you run in your research to

anything like what I described

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MR MIZER No Your Honor because it is

important to remember that this is -- this is a double

jeopardy case because of Ashe and because this is in

Federal habeas

With respect to your question about due

process or -- or other rules aside from due process

its possible that the State could have more expansive

common law or State law interpretations of the

collateral estoppel rules and maybe those would benefit

the defendant This Court in -- in the Hoag case

declined to use due process to incorporate collateral

estoppel rules constitutionally So in your case the

defendant would only be left with the hope that the

State would have more expansive collateral estoppel

rules

But to return to Ashe the defendant here is

claiming that he is entitled to a constitutionalized

version of collateral estoppel because of Ashe but hes

not entitled to that protection because Ashe applies

only where a defendant has previously been acquitted

and he has not

It also applies only in a case where the

defendant is facing a successive jeopardy of some sort

Now Mr Biess sentence is -- is surely at issue in

this case but its at issue in the sense that it would

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be at issue in say a direct appeal Its only --

there has only been one prosecution The State has only

taken one crack at convicting him or imposing a

sentence and that one sentence is whats at issue here

And so there is not anything successive

about this case and so the Double Jeopardy Clause

either through the put-in-jeopardy text or through the

acquittal requirement simply has nothing to offer Mr

Bies in the way of assistance

JUSTICE ALITO Could I ask you about --

about exhaustion What should we do about exhaustion

here I take it you dont -- youre not waiving

exhaustion

MR MIZER Your Honor were not contending

that the Ashe claim is unexhausted We agree that

thats exhausted because in the Ohio courts it is not

permissible to take an interlocutory appeal when a

double jeopardy claim has been denied as it was in this

case

And so we are fine with the Sixth Circuit

precedent that holds that in that case the Federal

courts can act in habeas to prevent exposure to a double

jeopardy We simply maintain that there is no second

jeopardy here But the Atkins claim itself is

unexhausted and the Federal magistrate that first dealt

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

1323 145 227 345 aware 211825 Biess 322276 3021 41820 108 1415 am 113 32 1313 1624act 1722

Amendment-r 1913 31322 459 2319 2925acting 211 1318 3124 32111 358 4217actual 2519 BAmerican 618 382 421218 4318287

B 2417analysis 31016 4222 437 binding 2713adaptive 517 back 522 135261 3924 arguments 2915621 816

182 192announced 4215 Blume 117 25additional 378 271625 40222822 Ashe 31725 42 19121315adequate 195

balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

balancing 1461717 232020 1715 2217 2419 251114adjudicate 322 bar 84 37112720 296 272511 2523 26222administer 421

42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

30124110 aside 166 3011 31515admit 3721 bases 3910appeals 206 asked 3816 3123 321222adopt 4112 basis 1918 2022321 287 3999 33121822adopted 356

2110 35913372 asking 3317 3417 352adversarial 109 3623 394APPEARAN assert 308 36219 3724199

beginning 47114 assistance 179 38917 392adversary 101 behalf 11617appellate 920 Association 618 40817 417AEDPA 321

2469 36925 103519 assume 381 4116affirmance 123 1914 42131212 2310 assumed 304 Bobby 13 34affirmed 712

behoove 89Appendix 510 assuming 418 borderline 620affords 144 believe 37131020 1812 Atkin 201515 3614 4318aggravating

411738922 Atkins 31317 borne 198111320 124 bench 1424applicable 305 32023 422 bound 15591213 139 benefit 423305 523 63 710 bounding 1412613 3615

169application 41 82 11514 brand 3219422 BENJAMIN4024 1471116 3324 345aggravation

115 238 35applied 2816 1724 184 brand-new2312 374 42124310 1979 2011 331718aggravator 923

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Breyer 1415 categorical 84 452 conclusion 310 convict 1422 1518 28421 3711 4219 clearly 2238 910 2223 319 291 313616 categorically 427 2411 373 convicting 173 325 4019 client 3378 conclusions conviction 3821

Breyers 333 category 2220 clinical 8378 1924 3610 4111 brief 4011 centers 324 81214 1412 conclusive 64 correct 91115

4221 certain 719 1922 20488 218 416 1014 2012 briefs 101920 certainly 2022 2022 2113 condition 3617 3115 broad 2017 364 clinicians 618 conduct 2216 counsel 1911 brother 2516 challenge 4012 close 620 conflicting 515 4210 457 Bullington 47 4424 Code 1222 consensus 4118 course 2319 burden 3510 chance 322 collateral 316 consequences court 1112 38 burdens 3510 change 151415 42 1691114 1515 2216 31221 4713

changed 3713 1618 2810 consequential 414 51710C 4021 4218 301215 317 4219 616 71112

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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And so none of the parties thought that

mental retardation in 1992 through 1996 was very

persuasive because the courts didnt treat it and the

jury didnt treat it as very persuasive Perhaps for the

reasons that this Court underscored in Atkins where the

Court said that as it had said in Penry that mental

retardation evidence presented to a jury in mitigation

could be a two-edged sword because some jurors might

perceive and the prosecutor might argue that that

evidence went to future dangerousness and therefore the

-- the State of Ohio argued that the mental retardation

evidence here was simply not persuasive and it was

outweighed by the -- the aggravating factors that the

jury had found Atkins told the --

JUSTICE STEVENS May I interrupt right

there Mr Mizer Is it fair to interpret the jurys

decision to impose the death penalty as having found

that he was not mentally retarded and therefore was not

a mitigating factor or that even though he was -- a

mitigating factor the aggravating factors outweighed

that factor

MR MIZER I think Your Honor that its

fairest and the record thats easiest to go by is what

the Ohio Supreme Court said because the jury didnt

make any specific remarks about mental retardation as a

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mitigator the Ohio Supreme Court did

But the -- the jurys verdict and then the

Ohio Supreme Courts affirmance should best be read as a

determination that the aggravating factors outweigh the

mitigating factors beyond a reasonable doubt and that

mental retardation was one of those mitigating factors

But it should not be read as a mini-verdict on the

existence of or the question of whether Mr Bies is

mentally retarded Because --

JUSTICE GINSBURG If they didnt make a

finding on mental retardation how -- how could the

appellate court determine that it was a mitigator but

overwhelmed by the aggravating -- what did the judge

charge the jury about mitigators and aggravators

MR MIZER The judge charged the jury that

-- first of all Your Honor the mitigating evidence

introduced by Mr Bies was not extensive He -- he

introduced an unsworn statement by himself and then Dr

Winter testified and that was the extent of the case in

mitigation So the jury was charged with the various

statutory mitigating factors in Ohio which is found in

Ohio Revised Code 292904

The mental retardation evidence was relevant

under two of those mitigating statutory factors one

factor 3 which went to mental disease or defect and

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then the catch-all factor 7 But the -- but I think

Poland helps to illuminate what the -- not only what the

jury was doing but also what the Ohio Supreme Court was

doing when it --

JUSTICE GINSBURG First go back to the

jury How do we know that the jury found mental

retardation as a mitigator

MR MIZER We dont Your Honor All that

we know is that the jury determined that the aggravating

factors outweighed the mitigators beyond a reasonable

doubt What we do know and what the Sixth Circuit hung

its hat on was the statement by the Ohio Supreme Court

on direct review that Mr Biess mental retardation

merits weight in mitigation

Poland explains that that -- that statement

by the Ohio Supreme Court should not be treated as a

mini-verdict on the mitigating factor but instead it

should be read as an Eighth Amendment-required marking

of the guidepost the very guidepost that this Court in

Penry said must be marked the relevance of mitigating

evidence of mental retardation

But -- but Poland says its wrong to think

of that marking of that Eighth Amendment guidepost as a

mini-verdict on mental retardation and instead it

should just be thought of as one of the factors that was

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bounding the discretion of the sentencer And so Poland

instructs that Mr Bies and the Sixth Circuit are wrong

to think of mental retardation as actually having been

found in some sense that affords preclusive effect

because instead it was just an Eighth Amendment

balancing

And instead what Atkins tells us is that the

State of Ohio just as the States were given the

opportunity after Ford v Wainwright in the insanity

context should be given the opportunity for the very

first time in this case to implement Atkins to

determine given clinical expert judgment whether or

not Mr Bies is in fact mentally retarded under the

three-part --

JUSTICE BREYER I understand the argument

that the issues are not quite the same that the Atkins

issue of mental retardation is not quite the same as the

issue that was litigated Lets try and get that out of

the case I think thats where Justice Kennedy was

going

Suppose it was a gun case and the Supreme

Court originally thought you could convict people who

sell drugs of simple possession of a gun Theres a

finding because its a bench trial that he simply

possessed but did not otherwise use the gun Then the

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Supreme Court holds that that isnt enough under the

statute So now the State wants to argue because the

proceeding on appeal or whatever is still going on we

want a second shot at this we want to show he did more

than simply possess Is the State bound by what it

previously lost on or can the State -- can he get a

second shot

MR MIZER The answer is that the State is

not bound for two reasons the first relating to issue

preclusion and the second relating to the double

jeopardy doctrine in Ashe On issue preclusion the --

the finding with respect to the gun doesnt carry

preclusive effect because this Court said in --

Sunnen and other cases that when there is a change in

legal consequences that change is enough to prevent the

operation of preclusive rules

But on the double jeopardy doctrine --

JUSTICE BREYER Im not -- Im not going to

go into double jeopardy I dont think necessarily that

its double jeopardy that -- that is relevant here But

I have a -- have you run into this in a different

context They wouldnt use the word double jeopardy

It would be some kind of due process problem Maybe

there isnt a problem Have you run in your research to

anything like what I described

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MR MIZER No Your Honor because it is

important to remember that this is -- this is a double

jeopardy case because of Ashe and because this is in

Federal habeas

With respect to your question about due

process or -- or other rules aside from due process

its possible that the State could have more expansive

common law or State law interpretations of the

collateral estoppel rules and maybe those would benefit

the defendant This Court in -- in the Hoag case

declined to use due process to incorporate collateral

estoppel rules constitutionally So in your case the

defendant would only be left with the hope that the

State would have more expansive collateral estoppel

rules

But to return to Ashe the defendant here is

claiming that he is entitled to a constitutionalized

version of collateral estoppel because of Ashe but hes

not entitled to that protection because Ashe applies

only where a defendant has previously been acquitted

and he has not

It also applies only in a case where the

defendant is facing a successive jeopardy of some sort

Now Mr Biess sentence is -- is surely at issue in

this case but its at issue in the sense that it would

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be at issue in say a direct appeal Its only --

there has only been one prosecution The State has only

taken one crack at convicting him or imposing a

sentence and that one sentence is whats at issue here

And so there is not anything successive

about this case and so the Double Jeopardy Clause

either through the put-in-jeopardy text or through the

acquittal requirement simply has nothing to offer Mr

Bies in the way of assistance

JUSTICE ALITO Could I ask you about --

about exhaustion What should we do about exhaustion

here I take it you dont -- youre not waiving

exhaustion

MR MIZER Your Honor were not contending

that the Ashe claim is unexhausted We agree that

thats exhausted because in the Ohio courts it is not

permissible to take an interlocutory appeal when a

double jeopardy claim has been denied as it was in this

case

And so we are fine with the Sixth Circuit

precedent that holds that in that case the Federal

courts can act in habeas to prevent exposure to a double

jeopardy We simply maintain that there is no second

jeopardy here But the Atkins claim itself is

unexhausted and the Federal magistrate that first dealt

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

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reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

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rule 43 2018 4116 4112 4220 2025 214144 1625 22131517 sort 1623 2920 States 3818 2319212524 2711 2817 3612 398 3918 403 2720 3416sentence 410 291020 329 4111 4215 439 372623924 1624 3219192021 SOUTER 811 statute 152 43161744 2117 322324 332 818 971216 statutory 1221 sure 3218 3913 2121 2320 33991017 201015 244 1224 3915254 2924 3319 34410 256121524 step 2312 surely 16243623 375143420 3125 3218 STEVENS Swenson 31740413 4320

rules 1516 166 332162024 1115 1818 41 272 3310 sentenced 62 1691215 343 3913 4323 441017 sword 118sentencer 49 3225 Souters 426 straight 422710 141 Truling 2914 specific 812 stretch 392222sentences 4025

T 2113313 1125 3921 strikes 3611sentencing take 521 1712 run 720 1521 specifically 519 submitted 458301625

1717 34131524 spoke 51919 4510separate 39 taken 173 2315 stage 3018 subsequent 63serious 281

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3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

71114 2417 told 71225 understanding Washington 18 X2423 409 920 1114 2623 wasnt 957

x 1274115 431 3814 unexhausted 1015 181418 technical 394 tomorrow 3217 171525 182 213 318 367 Ytechnically 297 tracking 4112 unique 226 401111 415

years 211tells 147 traditional 253 34135 421 yellow 4221ten 4211 3221 United 1112 way 179 2123

Tennard 721 treat 1134 3715 2223 235 0 terms 2712 treated 722 unreasonable 2539 324 08-598 15test 1819 1316 298 1011 1924 3525 testified 1219 trial 412 921 unsworn 1218 ways 2422 1

1813 104 1424 unusual 3224 4218 101 1811testifying 1921 1813 28912 urging 2116 weighed 2612 101a 59testimony 511 28121317 use 1425 1522 weighing 3415 104a 59 1811

1819 358 3020 311113 1611 2415 3424 1102 113 32 text 177 358 444 uses 2610 weight 1018 1154 459Thank 1911 true 219 usually 2421 1314 4319 143 381818

42910 457 try 1418 went 1110 153 3810Vtheory 2822 trying 2421 1225 202 16 4222 v 15 149 241 304911 264 2515 160 3822 4324 272 3310things 2918 turns 2423 were 1714 18 4222vaguely 2923713 4021 3210 2113 241722 19 26various 12204112 4218 two 6711 93 314 40922 1992 112vastly 3515think 7817 89 1224 159 4114 1996 112verdict 12289 92 1122 247111823 weve 324 345 version 161813122 143 251 264 White 241 2 versus 34171419 1519 2918 374 win 272310 2009 19

41 21112013 2110 40325 4218 winner 211719 2254(d)(1) 4314vigorously237 253 268 436 221 261025 2254(d)(2) 1919

10212711822 two-edged 118 Winter 5518 391112 434 violates 4181928101324 typical 224 1219 1921 4311violent 102529417 3014 204 357 27 19U virtually 369316 331822 Winters 1813 292904 1222

ultimate 2122352 36215 Winters 511W2125 222325 33619 39222 wishes 2415Wainwright2335 2410 427 won 2120 276 3 24 1225

1492614 273thinks 351622 277 3617waiving 1712 43525 361third 316 word 46 1522 want 521 1544 uncritically 42 29thought 111 words 98 1023

2822 291 23251325 1422 worked 918 5wants 152underlying 307three 39 5234 wouldnt 15223521 50 1819underscored36819 4414 308

warden 13115three-part 1414 writ 395 4314 6271525 3910 understand432 wrong 1322

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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mitigator the Ohio Supreme Court did

But the -- the jurys verdict and then the

Ohio Supreme Courts affirmance should best be read as a

determination that the aggravating factors outweigh the

mitigating factors beyond a reasonable doubt and that

mental retardation was one of those mitigating factors

But it should not be read as a mini-verdict on the

existence of or the question of whether Mr Bies is

mentally retarded Because --

JUSTICE GINSBURG If they didnt make a

finding on mental retardation how -- how could the

appellate court determine that it was a mitigator but

overwhelmed by the aggravating -- what did the judge

charge the jury about mitigators and aggravators

MR MIZER The judge charged the jury that

-- first of all Your Honor the mitigating evidence

introduced by Mr Bies was not extensive He -- he

introduced an unsworn statement by himself and then Dr

Winter testified and that was the extent of the case in

mitigation So the jury was charged with the various

statutory mitigating factors in Ohio which is found in

Ohio Revised Code 292904

The mental retardation evidence was relevant

under two of those mitigating statutory factors one

factor 3 which went to mental disease or defect and

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then the catch-all factor 7 But the -- but I think

Poland helps to illuminate what the -- not only what the

jury was doing but also what the Ohio Supreme Court was

doing when it --

JUSTICE GINSBURG First go back to the

jury How do we know that the jury found mental

retardation as a mitigator

MR MIZER We dont Your Honor All that

we know is that the jury determined that the aggravating

factors outweighed the mitigators beyond a reasonable

doubt What we do know and what the Sixth Circuit hung

its hat on was the statement by the Ohio Supreme Court

on direct review that Mr Biess mental retardation

merits weight in mitigation

Poland explains that that -- that statement

by the Ohio Supreme Court should not be treated as a

mini-verdict on the mitigating factor but instead it

should be read as an Eighth Amendment-required marking

of the guidepost the very guidepost that this Court in

Penry said must be marked the relevance of mitigating

evidence of mental retardation

But -- but Poland says its wrong to think

of that marking of that Eighth Amendment guidepost as a

mini-verdict on mental retardation and instead it

should just be thought of as one of the factors that was

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bounding the discretion of the sentencer And so Poland

instructs that Mr Bies and the Sixth Circuit are wrong

to think of mental retardation as actually having been

found in some sense that affords preclusive effect

because instead it was just an Eighth Amendment

balancing

And instead what Atkins tells us is that the

State of Ohio just as the States were given the

opportunity after Ford v Wainwright in the insanity

context should be given the opportunity for the very

first time in this case to implement Atkins to

determine given clinical expert judgment whether or

not Mr Bies is in fact mentally retarded under the

three-part --

JUSTICE BREYER I understand the argument

that the issues are not quite the same that the Atkins

issue of mental retardation is not quite the same as the

issue that was litigated Lets try and get that out of

the case I think thats where Justice Kennedy was

going

Suppose it was a gun case and the Supreme

Court originally thought you could convict people who

sell drugs of simple possession of a gun Theres a

finding because its a bench trial that he simply

possessed but did not otherwise use the gun Then the

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Supreme Court holds that that isnt enough under the

statute So now the State wants to argue because the

proceeding on appeal or whatever is still going on we

want a second shot at this we want to show he did more

than simply possess Is the State bound by what it

previously lost on or can the State -- can he get a

second shot

MR MIZER The answer is that the State is

not bound for two reasons the first relating to issue

preclusion and the second relating to the double

jeopardy doctrine in Ashe On issue preclusion the --

the finding with respect to the gun doesnt carry

preclusive effect because this Court said in --

Sunnen and other cases that when there is a change in

legal consequences that change is enough to prevent the

operation of preclusive rules

But on the double jeopardy doctrine --

JUSTICE BREYER Im not -- Im not going to

go into double jeopardy I dont think necessarily that

its double jeopardy that -- that is relevant here But

I have a -- have you run into this in a different

context They wouldnt use the word double jeopardy

It would be some kind of due process problem Maybe

there isnt a problem Have you run in your research to

anything like what I described

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MR MIZER No Your Honor because it is

important to remember that this is -- this is a double

jeopardy case because of Ashe and because this is in

Federal habeas

With respect to your question about due

process or -- or other rules aside from due process

its possible that the State could have more expansive

common law or State law interpretations of the

collateral estoppel rules and maybe those would benefit

the defendant This Court in -- in the Hoag case

declined to use due process to incorporate collateral

estoppel rules constitutionally So in your case the

defendant would only be left with the hope that the

State would have more expansive collateral estoppel

rules

But to return to Ashe the defendant here is

claiming that he is entitled to a constitutionalized

version of collateral estoppel because of Ashe but hes

not entitled to that protection because Ashe applies

only where a defendant has previously been acquitted

and he has not

It also applies only in a case where the

defendant is facing a successive jeopardy of some sort

Now Mr Biess sentence is -- is surely at issue in

this case but its at issue in the sense that it would

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be at issue in say a direct appeal Its only --

there has only been one prosecution The State has only

taken one crack at convicting him or imposing a

sentence and that one sentence is whats at issue here

And so there is not anything successive

about this case and so the Double Jeopardy Clause

either through the put-in-jeopardy text or through the

acquittal requirement simply has nothing to offer Mr

Bies in the way of assistance

JUSTICE ALITO Could I ask you about --

about exhaustion What should we do about exhaustion

here I take it you dont -- youre not waiving

exhaustion

MR MIZER Your Honor were not contending

that the Ashe claim is unexhausted We agree that

thats exhausted because in the Ohio courts it is not

permissible to take an interlocutory appeal when a

double jeopardy claim has been denied as it was in this

case

And so we are fine with the Sixth Circuit

precedent that holds that in that case the Federal

courts can act in habeas to prevent exposure to a double

jeopardy We simply maintain that there is no second

jeopardy here But the Atkins claim itself is

unexhausted and the Federal magistrate that first dealt

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

1323 145 227 345 aware 211825 Biess 322276 3021 41820 108 1415 am 113 32 1313 1624act 1722

Amendment-r 1913 31322 459 2319 2925acting 211 1318 3124 32111 358 4217actual 2519 BAmerican 618 382 421218 4318287

B 2417analysis 31016 4222 437 binding 2713adaptive 517 back 522 135261 3924 arguments 2915621 816

182 192announced 4215 Blume 117 25additional 378 271625 40222822 Ashe 31725 42 19121315adequate 195

balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

balancing 1461717 232020 1715 2217 2419 251114adjudicate 322 bar 84 37112720 296 272511 2523 26222administer 421

42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

30124110 aside 166 3011 31515admit 3721 bases 3910appeals 206 asked 3816 3123 321222adopt 4112 basis 1918 2022321 287 3999 33121822adopted 356

2110 35913372 asking 3317 3417 352adversarial 109 3623 394APPEARAN assert 308 36219 3724199

beginning 47114 assistance 179 38917 392adversary 101 behalf 11617appellate 920 Association 618 40817 417AEDPA 321

2469 36925 103519 assume 381 4116affirmance 123 1914 42131212 2310 assumed 304 Bobby 13 34affirmed 712

behoove 89Appendix 510 assuming 418 borderline 620affords 144 believe 37131020 1812 Atkin 201515 3614 4318aggravating

411738922 Atkins 31317 borne 198111320 124 bench 1424applicable 305 32023 422 bound 15591213 139 benefit 423305 523 63 710 bounding 1412613 3615

169application 41 82 11514 brand 3219422 BENJAMIN4024 1471116 3324 345aggravation

115 238 35applied 2816 1724 184 brand-new2312 374 42124310 1979 2011 331718aggravator 923

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Breyer 1415 categorical 84 452 conclusion 310 convict 1422 1518 28421 3711 4219 clearly 2238 910 2223 319 291 313616 categorically 427 2411 373 convicting 173 325 4019 client 3378 conclusions conviction 3821

Breyers 333 category 2220 clinical 8378 1924 3610 4111 brief 4011 centers 324 81214 1412 conclusive 64 correct 91115

4221 certain 719 1922 20488 218 416 1014 2012 briefs 101920 certainly 2022 2022 2113 condition 3617 3115 broad 2017 364 clinicians 618 conduct 2216 counsel 1911 brother 2516 challenge 4012 close 620 conflicting 515 4210 457 Bullington 47 4424 Code 1222 consensus 4118 course 2319 burden 3510 chance 322 collateral 316 consequences court 1112 38 burdens 3510 change 151415 42 1691114 1515 2216 31221 4713

changed 3713 1618 2810 consequential 414 51710C 4021 4218 301215 317 4219 616 71112

C 115 2138 characterizati 3120 consider 2517 724 1016 315 4212 249 2520 Columbus 115 considerations 115624 121

call 3616 charge 1214 combination 2424 1212 13312called 513 charged 1215 321222 considered 131619 1422

401523 1220 combined 2219 1825 15113 1610 capital 301625 Chief 337 299 Considering 181331121 care 251 3518 191115 2912 come 522 822 725 19116 2012 careful 87 2917 302 825 107 258 consistent 321 2067 2114 carefully 55 361120 4210 4423 181416 197 23192021

621 457 comes 923 336 246171720 carry 1512 Circuit 1311 2722 Constitution 2567 2717 case 31524 142 1720 coming 3218 3191219 272123 2811

4111223 2111 438 commits 311 3715 4120 2914 3022 524 620 819 456 committed constitutionali 3321 3416 82022 1219 Circuits 435 3523 83 1617 3620 3712614111921 4313 common 168 constitutionally 371923 3810 163101222 circumstances 2920 1612 197 3912 4024 1625 17619 231416 2413 compelling 391 411824 439 1721 18125 2613 422 3615 contained 52 4321 444 1822 1919 claim 323 1715 completely 77 contending 451 21418 231 171824 3711 conceded 3717 1714 courts 322 716 259 2722 3916 4099 3815 4122 contest 101 718 920 105 2824 291 40171818 conception 3657 371 113 1716223110 3358 41782223 2017 contesting 3625 2321 2614 342 35322 422 concerns 254 context 49 778 courts 319 52 366121417 claimed 386 concession 1410 1522 123 1824 4316 45189 claiming 1617 3821 391823 2245 3036 1920 221112

cases 1514 241 clarifying 4324 3925 4010 30161925 2219 3624 26379 2955 clause 311 176 4324 34141423 3712 4020 3015 322 2623 301013 concessions 379 428 4316 3621 376 3114 397 4216 continuing 101 crack 173

catch-all 131 clear 616 402 concluded 57 contrary 286 creates 2213

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credible 2915 3819 411 201620 2425 1522 162 1619 crime 351823 4325 4420 4415 1761822 entitles 3112 crimes 3024 defendants 43 determined 139 3091216 equivalent 296 criminal 225 defendants 1920 203 3113 3220 ESQ 11517 23

2919 3018 2713 2218 248 doubt 125 258 3314 defense 338 2712 1311 276 essence 2215

defined 48 developments Dr 551118 essential 2323 D defining 84 4117 1218 1812 essentially 295

D 31 definition 534 difference 799 1921 204 establishingdaily 518 61215 716 24616 3520 357 2910 3511 dangerousness 718 1922 different 614 drawn 202022 estoppel 316

1110 20481624 77 82 93 drugs 1423 43 1691214DAVID 13 2113 229 1521 258 due 1523 1656 1618 301215de 106 2922 3214 341419 3515 1611 3678 3825 3939deal 1015 3556 432 3613 373 DC 18 391516 426 dealing 216 definitional 407 4418 42152224

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410121421 early 8221817 171 378 evidence 5111562 924 1117 easiest 1123demonstrated 4110 4317 71922 81 218172125 effect 144 1513 55 disagree 4419 1062224222425 236 2210 234denied 1718 disagreement 11710122522 2615 3215Denno 317 325 121623 1321 2921 3118 effectively 82depending 329 discover 3120 181420233315 3521 Eighth 131823describe 2310 discretion 141 1925 203 3623 37514 145 418192421 2521 discussion 1917 2317 296 401219 either 89 177 described 1525 disease 1225 3191117

decided 318 2413 29182323 dismissed 396 3517 368211919 2511 3017 3314describes 239 dispositive 820 3625 4410 271922 3422 elements 535describing 325 824 913 452 3513 3911 3413 4414designed 2424 3925 exactly 2020

decision 319 453determination disproportion 259 2824 52 1117 elevate 261658 8222325 375 example 242 1822 191921 embraced 411999 124 1924 disproportion 2819 21412 2212 embracing2122 2336 3714 excerpts 1020 221219 299 2113261417 3213 dispute 324 excluded 718 3624 3713 enacting 42193223 3357 disregarded excuse 418 4020 engage 23113539 439 438 execute 3410

declined 1611 engaged 106454 distortion 4321 4120 423 defect 1225 ensure 195determinations doctrine 1511 executed 2214 defendant 525 enters 37192123 1517 446

624 161013 entirely 336determinative doing 724 133 executing 84 16162023 3419261919 134 246 349 execution 406 287 291924 entitle 2924determine 312 342021 413 3018 312 311 4319513 617 double 3911 exhausted 1716 3314 381215 entitled 16171212 1412 1510171920 exhaustion

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17111113 fair 1116 353 fought 2120 going 1420 153 I existence 128 fairest 1123 found 111417 1518 3411 identical 36310exists 102 2124 far 522 1917 1221 136 3518 identification

2318 4118 247 291212 144 2225 grabs 2813 2313 expansive 167 favor 2713 2322 2577 grant 818 395 identify 2316

1614 Federal 164 261212 285 436 323 expert 1412 172125 181 3424 3723 granted 396 identity 3020

2915 2811 318 4124 granting 4314 302124experts 512 filed 4110 frankly 268 great 1015 ignores 4218

191 368 final 2218 function 2324 grounds 3911 illuminate 132 4414 find 524 1012 263 guidepost 1319 imagine 27416

explains 1315 267 further 186 131923 implement exposure 1722 finding 49 64 443 455 gun 14212325 1411 express 242 625 812 921 future 1110 1512 implementingexpressly 349 1211 1424 51G Hextending 48 1512 1824 important 162

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

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quite 141617precisely 344 proceed 2821 referred 3918 11271125407preclude 349 proceeding 63 regard 408 1261123

precluded 222 153 201 regarded 411 137132124Rprecludes 323 2218 2318 regardless 2023 14317 1923 R 31preclusion 419 24812 252 relating 61213 205791618raise 3825 392 91 151011 2810 2916 15910 21771424

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reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

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reviewed 921 238 252 3215 3412 311 4422524 1322 reviewing 414 3313 415 351 361025 suggest 810221317 272

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rules 1516 166 332162024 1115 1818 41 272 3310 sentenced 62 1691215 343 3913 4323 441017 sword 118sentencer 49 3225 Souters 426 straight 422710 141 Truling 2914 specific 812 stretch 392222sentences 4025

T 2113313 1125 3921 strikes 3611sentencing take 521 1712 run 720 1521 specifically 519 submitted 458301625

1717 34131524 spoke 51919 4510separate 39 taken 173 2315 stage 3018 subsequent 63serious 281

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3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

71114 2417 told 71225 understanding Washington 18 X2423 409 920 1114 2623 wasnt 957

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1819 358 3020 311113 1611 2415 3424 1102 113 32 text 177 358 444 uses 2610 weight 1018 1154 459Thank 1911 true 219 usually 2421 1314 4319 143 381818

42910 457 try 1418 went 1110 153 3810Vtheory 2822 trying 2421 1225 202 16 4222 v 15 149 241 304911 264 2515 160 3822 4324 272 3310things 2918 turns 2423 were 1714 18 4222vaguely 2923713 4021 3210 2113 241722 19 26various 12204112 4218 two 6711 93 314 40922 1992 112vastly 3515think 7817 89 1224 159 4114 1996 112verdict 12289 92 1122 247111823 weve 324 345 version 161813122 143 251 264 White 241 2 versus 34171419 1519 2918 374 win 272310 2009 19

41 21112013 2110 40325 4218 winner 211719 2254(d)(1) 4314vigorously237 253 268 436 221 261025 2254(d)(2) 1919

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ultimate 2122352 36215 Winters 511W2125 222325 33619 39222 wishes 2415Wainwright2335 2410 427 won 2120 276 3 24 1225

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warden 13115three-part 1414 writ 395 4314 6271525 3910 understand432 wrong 1322

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

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then the catch-all factor 7 But the -- but I think

Poland helps to illuminate what the -- not only what the

jury was doing but also what the Ohio Supreme Court was

doing when it --

JUSTICE GINSBURG First go back to the

jury How do we know that the jury found mental

retardation as a mitigator

MR MIZER We dont Your Honor All that

we know is that the jury determined that the aggravating

factors outweighed the mitigators beyond a reasonable

doubt What we do know and what the Sixth Circuit hung

its hat on was the statement by the Ohio Supreme Court

on direct review that Mr Biess mental retardation

merits weight in mitigation

Poland explains that that -- that statement

by the Ohio Supreme Court should not be treated as a

mini-verdict on the mitigating factor but instead it

should be read as an Eighth Amendment-required marking

of the guidepost the very guidepost that this Court in

Penry said must be marked the relevance of mitigating

evidence of mental retardation

But -- but Poland says its wrong to think

of that marking of that Eighth Amendment guidepost as a

mini-verdict on mental retardation and instead it

should just be thought of as one of the factors that was

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bounding the discretion of the sentencer And so Poland

instructs that Mr Bies and the Sixth Circuit are wrong

to think of mental retardation as actually having been

found in some sense that affords preclusive effect

because instead it was just an Eighth Amendment

balancing

And instead what Atkins tells us is that the

State of Ohio just as the States were given the

opportunity after Ford v Wainwright in the insanity

context should be given the opportunity for the very

first time in this case to implement Atkins to

determine given clinical expert judgment whether or

not Mr Bies is in fact mentally retarded under the

three-part --

JUSTICE BREYER I understand the argument

that the issues are not quite the same that the Atkins

issue of mental retardation is not quite the same as the

issue that was litigated Lets try and get that out of

the case I think thats where Justice Kennedy was

going

Suppose it was a gun case and the Supreme

Court originally thought you could convict people who

sell drugs of simple possession of a gun Theres a

finding because its a bench trial that he simply

possessed but did not otherwise use the gun Then the

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Supreme Court holds that that isnt enough under the

statute So now the State wants to argue because the

proceeding on appeal or whatever is still going on we

want a second shot at this we want to show he did more

than simply possess Is the State bound by what it

previously lost on or can the State -- can he get a

second shot

MR MIZER The answer is that the State is

not bound for two reasons the first relating to issue

preclusion and the second relating to the double

jeopardy doctrine in Ashe On issue preclusion the --

the finding with respect to the gun doesnt carry

preclusive effect because this Court said in --

Sunnen and other cases that when there is a change in

legal consequences that change is enough to prevent the

operation of preclusive rules

But on the double jeopardy doctrine --

JUSTICE BREYER Im not -- Im not going to

go into double jeopardy I dont think necessarily that

its double jeopardy that -- that is relevant here But

I have a -- have you run into this in a different

context They wouldnt use the word double jeopardy

It would be some kind of due process problem Maybe

there isnt a problem Have you run in your research to

anything like what I described

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MR MIZER No Your Honor because it is

important to remember that this is -- this is a double

jeopardy case because of Ashe and because this is in

Federal habeas

With respect to your question about due

process or -- or other rules aside from due process

its possible that the State could have more expansive

common law or State law interpretations of the

collateral estoppel rules and maybe those would benefit

the defendant This Court in -- in the Hoag case

declined to use due process to incorporate collateral

estoppel rules constitutionally So in your case the

defendant would only be left with the hope that the

State would have more expansive collateral estoppel

rules

But to return to Ashe the defendant here is

claiming that he is entitled to a constitutionalized

version of collateral estoppel because of Ashe but hes

not entitled to that protection because Ashe applies

only where a defendant has previously been acquitted

and he has not

It also applies only in a case where the

defendant is facing a successive jeopardy of some sort

Now Mr Biess sentence is -- is surely at issue in

this case but its at issue in the sense that it would

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be at issue in say a direct appeal Its only --

there has only been one prosecution The State has only

taken one crack at convicting him or imposing a

sentence and that one sentence is whats at issue here

And so there is not anything successive

about this case and so the Double Jeopardy Clause

either through the put-in-jeopardy text or through the

acquittal requirement simply has nothing to offer Mr

Bies in the way of assistance

JUSTICE ALITO Could I ask you about --

about exhaustion What should we do about exhaustion

here I take it you dont -- youre not waiving

exhaustion

MR MIZER Your Honor were not contending

that the Ashe claim is unexhausted We agree that

thats exhausted because in the Ohio courts it is not

permissible to take an interlocutory appeal when a

double jeopardy claim has been denied as it was in this

case

And so we are fine with the Sixth Circuit

precedent that holds that in that case the Federal

courts can act in habeas to prevent exposure to a double

jeopardy We simply maintain that there is no second

jeopardy here But the Atkins claim itself is

unexhausted and the Federal magistrate that first dealt

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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3820 3921 412 441621

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bounding the discretion of the sentencer And so Poland

instructs that Mr Bies and the Sixth Circuit are wrong

to think of mental retardation as actually having been

found in some sense that affords preclusive effect

because instead it was just an Eighth Amendment

balancing

And instead what Atkins tells us is that the

State of Ohio just as the States were given the

opportunity after Ford v Wainwright in the insanity

context should be given the opportunity for the very

first time in this case to implement Atkins to

determine given clinical expert judgment whether or

not Mr Bies is in fact mentally retarded under the

three-part --

JUSTICE BREYER I understand the argument

that the issues are not quite the same that the Atkins

issue of mental retardation is not quite the same as the

issue that was litigated Lets try and get that out of

the case I think thats where Justice Kennedy was

going

Suppose it was a gun case and the Supreme

Court originally thought you could convict people who

sell drugs of simple possession of a gun Theres a

finding because its a bench trial that he simply

possessed but did not otherwise use the gun Then the

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Supreme Court holds that that isnt enough under the

statute So now the State wants to argue because the

proceeding on appeal or whatever is still going on we

want a second shot at this we want to show he did more

than simply possess Is the State bound by what it

previously lost on or can the State -- can he get a

second shot

MR MIZER The answer is that the State is

not bound for two reasons the first relating to issue

preclusion and the second relating to the double

jeopardy doctrine in Ashe On issue preclusion the --

the finding with respect to the gun doesnt carry

preclusive effect because this Court said in --

Sunnen and other cases that when there is a change in

legal consequences that change is enough to prevent the

operation of preclusive rules

But on the double jeopardy doctrine --

JUSTICE BREYER Im not -- Im not going to

go into double jeopardy I dont think necessarily that

its double jeopardy that -- that is relevant here But

I have a -- have you run into this in a different

context They wouldnt use the word double jeopardy

It would be some kind of due process problem Maybe

there isnt a problem Have you run in your research to

anything like what I described

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MR MIZER No Your Honor because it is

important to remember that this is -- this is a double

jeopardy case because of Ashe and because this is in

Federal habeas

With respect to your question about due

process or -- or other rules aside from due process

its possible that the State could have more expansive

common law or State law interpretations of the

collateral estoppel rules and maybe those would benefit

the defendant This Court in -- in the Hoag case

declined to use due process to incorporate collateral

estoppel rules constitutionally So in your case the

defendant would only be left with the hope that the

State would have more expansive collateral estoppel

rules

But to return to Ashe the defendant here is

claiming that he is entitled to a constitutionalized

version of collateral estoppel because of Ashe but hes

not entitled to that protection because Ashe applies

only where a defendant has previously been acquitted

and he has not

It also applies only in a case where the

defendant is facing a successive jeopardy of some sort

Now Mr Biess sentence is -- is surely at issue in

this case but its at issue in the sense that it would

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be at issue in say a direct appeal Its only --

there has only been one prosecution The State has only

taken one crack at convicting him or imposing a

sentence and that one sentence is whats at issue here

And so there is not anything successive

about this case and so the Double Jeopardy Clause

either through the put-in-jeopardy text or through the

acquittal requirement simply has nothing to offer Mr

Bies in the way of assistance

JUSTICE ALITO Could I ask you about --

about exhaustion What should we do about exhaustion

here I take it you dont -- youre not waiving

exhaustion

MR MIZER Your Honor were not contending

that the Ashe claim is unexhausted We agree that

thats exhausted because in the Ohio courts it is not

permissible to take an interlocutory appeal when a

double jeopardy claim has been denied as it was in this

case

And so we are fine with the Sixth Circuit

precedent that holds that in that case the Federal

courts can act in habeas to prevent exposure to a double

jeopardy We simply maintain that there is no second

jeopardy here But the Atkins claim itself is

unexhausted and the Federal magistrate that first dealt

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

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2411 252021 14910 passages 3917111622 1215 positions 403 265 354 oral 111 22 35 penalty 45921138 158 161 possess 155 3620 3734 1913 1117 2181714 181020 possessed 1425

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

311 510 183 4217 put 4025 27 4212 1512 165 18111525 primarily 392 put-in-jeopardy recites 4419 307 4214 191 37910 prior 102425 177 recognize 420 Respondent 3719 387 22716 248 recognized 118 26 1914

Q4012 439 2411 3023 3620 responding 425 question 5234415 451 364 record 423 56 response 244

1016 128posture 109 problem 721 51622 8810 2418 333 165 1812226 3424 152324 285 1046724 3716 3818 2221 245post-Atkins 58 4371115 1123 181423 412123265 30714613 78 816 problems 437 3022 371724 result 824 913 334 35252112 432 4312 381219 3916 2513 3121 365 393 421 449 procedural 224 4025 432525 retardation 420 4324 44812post-conviction 226 3424 4420 452 5420 61317 441357 procedure 2825 refer 815 619 71417

questions 186precedent 1721 3225 341220 reference 64 81 91922426 455precise 2518 342125 355 392021 101121722

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precluded 222 153 201 regarded 411 137132124Rprecludes 323 2218 2318 regardless 2023 14317 1923 R 31preclusion 419 24812 252 relating 61213 205791618raise 3825 392 91 151011 2810 2916 15910 21771424

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reasonable 3201722 psychiatrist repeated 3821 271821 3411 125 1310prevented 4313 1922 required 815 388131620438previously 156 psychologists 391 441521

reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

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reviewed 921 238 252 3215 3412 311 4422524 1322 reviewing 414 3313 415 351 361025 suggest 810221317 272

2319 significant 514 3791016 suggested 36132717 288 Revised 1222 similar 312021 386771015 summarily3711 3811 reweighing simple 1423 3824 4024 27234111

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268 27415 17823 stated 2711 supports 2819328 338 311416 377 Sixth 1311 142 4221 451 suppose 5233624 4220

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1911 2912 622 817 448111924 71124 1016 see 24516302 3611 sole 359 statements 286 1124 12132616 308 4210 457 Solicitor 115 States 1112 1331216seeing 402

role 2391024 somebody 276 148 2019 1421 151sell 1423 2623 sorry 610 3817 3420 3715 182124 207 sense 45 94

rule 43 2018 4116 4112 4220 2025 214144 1625 22131517 sort 1623 2920 States 3818 2319212524 2711 2817 3612 398 3918 403 2720 3416sentence 410 291020 329 4111 4215 439 372623924 1624 3219192021 SOUTER 811 statute 152 43161744 2117 322324 332 818 971216 statutory 1221 sure 3218 3913 2121 2320 33991017 201015 244 1224 3915254 2924 3319 34410 256121524 step 2312 surely 16243623 375143420 3125 3218 STEVENS Swenson 31740413 4320

rules 1516 166 332162024 1115 1818 41 272 3310 sentenced 62 1691215 343 3913 4323 441017 sword 118sentencer 49 3225 Souters 426 straight 422710 141 Truling 2914 specific 812 stretch 392222sentences 4025

T 2113313 1125 3921 strikes 3611sentencing take 521 1712 run 720 1521 specifically 519 submitted 458301625

1717 34131524 spoke 51919 4510separate 39 taken 173 2315 stage 3018 subsequent 63serious 281

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3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

71114 2417 told 71225 understanding Washington 18 X2423 409 920 1114 2623 wasnt 957

x 1274115 431 3814 unexhausted 1015 181418 technical 394 tomorrow 3217 171525 182 213 318 367 Ytechnically 297 tracking 4112 unique 226 401111 415

years 211tells 147 traditional 253 34135 421 yellow 4221ten 4211 3221 United 1112 way 179 2123

Tennard 721 treat 1134 3715 2223 235 0 terms 2712 treated 722 unreasonable 2539 324 08-598 15test 1819 1316 298 1011 1924 3525 testified 1219 trial 412 921 unsworn 1218 ways 2422 1

1813 104 1424 unusual 3224 4218 101 1811testifying 1921 1813 28912 urging 2116 weighed 2612 101a 59testimony 511 28121317 use 1425 1522 weighing 3415 104a 59 1811

1819 358 3020 311113 1611 2415 3424 1102 113 32 text 177 358 444 uses 2610 weight 1018 1154 459Thank 1911 true 219 usually 2421 1314 4319 143 381818

42910 457 try 1418 went 1110 153 3810Vtheory 2822 trying 2421 1225 202 16 4222 v 15 149 241 304911 264 2515 160 3822 4324 272 3310things 2918 turns 2423 were 1714 18 4222vaguely 2923713 4021 3210 2113 241722 19 26various 12204112 4218 two 6711 93 314 40922 1992 112vastly 3515think 7817 89 1224 159 4114 1996 112verdict 12289 92 1122 247111823 weve 324 345 version 161813122 143 251 264 White 241 2 versus 34171419 1519 2918 374 win 272310 2009 19

41 21112013 2110 40325 4218 winner 211719 2254(d)(1) 4314vigorously237 253 268 436 221 261025 2254(d)(2) 1919

10212711822 two-edged 118 Winter 5518 391112 434 violates 4181928101324 typical 224 1219 1921 4311violent 102529417 3014 204 357 27 19U virtually 369316 331822 Winters 1813 292904 1222

ultimate 2122352 36215 Winters 511W2125 222325 33619 39222 wishes 2415Wainwright2335 2410 427 won 2120 276 3 24 1225

1492614 273thinks 351622 277 3617waiving 1712 43525 361third 316 word 46 1522 want 521 1544 uncritically 42 29thought 111 words 98 1023

2822 291 23251325 1422 worked 918 5wants 152underlying 307three 39 5234 wouldnt 15223521 50 1819underscored36819 4414 308

warden 13115three-part 1414 writ 395 4314 6271525 3910 understand432 wrong 1322

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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Supreme Court holds that that isnt enough under the

statute So now the State wants to argue because the

proceeding on appeal or whatever is still going on we

want a second shot at this we want to show he did more

than simply possess Is the State bound by what it

previously lost on or can the State -- can he get a

second shot

MR MIZER The answer is that the State is

not bound for two reasons the first relating to issue

preclusion and the second relating to the double

jeopardy doctrine in Ashe On issue preclusion the --

the finding with respect to the gun doesnt carry

preclusive effect because this Court said in --

Sunnen and other cases that when there is a change in

legal consequences that change is enough to prevent the

operation of preclusive rules

But on the double jeopardy doctrine --

JUSTICE BREYER Im not -- Im not going to

go into double jeopardy I dont think necessarily that

its double jeopardy that -- that is relevant here But

I have a -- have you run into this in a different

context They wouldnt use the word double jeopardy

It would be some kind of due process problem Maybe

there isnt a problem Have you run in your research to

anything like what I described

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MR MIZER No Your Honor because it is

important to remember that this is -- this is a double

jeopardy case because of Ashe and because this is in

Federal habeas

With respect to your question about due

process or -- or other rules aside from due process

its possible that the State could have more expansive

common law or State law interpretations of the

collateral estoppel rules and maybe those would benefit

the defendant This Court in -- in the Hoag case

declined to use due process to incorporate collateral

estoppel rules constitutionally So in your case the

defendant would only be left with the hope that the

State would have more expansive collateral estoppel

rules

But to return to Ashe the defendant here is

claiming that he is entitled to a constitutionalized

version of collateral estoppel because of Ashe but hes

not entitled to that protection because Ashe applies

only where a defendant has previously been acquitted

and he has not

It also applies only in a case where the

defendant is facing a successive jeopardy of some sort

Now Mr Biess sentence is -- is surely at issue in

this case but its at issue in the sense that it would

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be at issue in say a direct appeal Its only --

there has only been one prosecution The State has only

taken one crack at convicting him or imposing a

sentence and that one sentence is whats at issue here

And so there is not anything successive

about this case and so the Double Jeopardy Clause

either through the put-in-jeopardy text or through the

acquittal requirement simply has nothing to offer Mr

Bies in the way of assistance

JUSTICE ALITO Could I ask you about --

about exhaustion What should we do about exhaustion

here I take it you dont -- youre not waiving

exhaustion

MR MIZER Your Honor were not contending

that the Ashe claim is unexhausted We agree that

thats exhausted because in the Ohio courts it is not

permissible to take an interlocutory appeal when a

double jeopardy claim has been denied as it was in this

case

And so we are fine with the Sixth Circuit

precedent that holds that in that case the Federal

courts can act in habeas to prevent exposure to a double

jeopardy We simply maintain that there is no second

jeopardy here But the Atkins claim itself is

unexhausted and the Federal magistrate that first dealt

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

1323 145 227 345 aware 211825 Biess 322276 3021 41820 108 1415 am 113 32 1313 1624act 1722

Amendment-r 1913 31322 459 2319 2925acting 211 1318 3124 32111 358 4217actual 2519 BAmerican 618 382 421218 4318287

B 2417analysis 31016 4222 437 binding 2713adaptive 517 back 522 135261 3924 arguments 2915621 816

182 192announced 4215 Blume 117 25additional 378 271625 40222822 Ashe 31725 42 19121315adequate 195

balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

balancing 1461717 232020 1715 2217 2419 251114adjudicate 322 bar 84 37112720 296 272511 2523 26222administer 421

42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

30124110 aside 166 3011 31515admit 3721 bases 3910appeals 206 asked 3816 3123 321222adopt 4112 basis 1918 2022321 287 3999 33121822adopted 356

2110 35913372 asking 3317 3417 352adversarial 109 3623 394APPEARAN assert 308 36219 3724199

beginning 47114 assistance 179 38917 392adversary 101 behalf 11617appellate 920 Association 618 40817 417AEDPA 321

2469 36925 103519 assume 381 4116affirmance 123 1914 42131212 2310 assumed 304 Bobby 13 34affirmed 712

behoove 89Appendix 510 assuming 418 borderline 620affords 144 believe 37131020 1812 Atkin 201515 3614 4318aggravating

411738922 Atkins 31317 borne 198111320 124 bench 1424applicable 305 32023 422 bound 15591213 139 benefit 423305 523 63 710 bounding 1412613 3615

169application 41 82 11514 brand 3219422 BENJAMIN4024 1471116 3324 345aggravation

115 238 35applied 2816 1724 184 brand-new2312 374 42124310 1979 2011 331718aggravator 923

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Breyers 333 category 2220 clinical 8378 1924 3610 4111 brief 4011 centers 324 81214 1412 conclusive 64 correct 91115

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call 3616 charge 1214 combination 2424 1212 13312called 513 charged 1215 321222 considered 131619 1422

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catch-all 131 clear 616 402 concluded 57 contrary 286 creates 2213

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credible 2915 3819 411 201620 2425 1522 162 1619 crime 351823 4325 4420 4415 1761822 entitles 3112 crimes 3024 defendants 43 determined 139 3091216 equivalent 296 criminal 225 defendants 1920 203 3113 3220 ESQ 11517 23

2919 3018 2713 2218 248 doubt 125 258 3314 defense 338 2712 1311 276 essence 2215

defined 48 developments Dr 551118 essential 2323 D defining 84 4117 1218 1812 essentially 295

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decision 319 453determination disproportion 259 2824 52 1117 elevate 261658 8222325 375 example 242 1822 191921 embraced 411999 124 1924 disproportion 2819 21412 2212 embracing2122 2336 3714 excerpts 1020 221219 299 2113261417 3213 dispute 324 excluded 718 3624 3713 enacting 42193223 3357 disregarded excuse 418 4020 engage 23113539 439 438 execute 3410

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factor 62 715 4114 4216 hinge 4413135 1411 40211192021 Ginsburgs 245 history 1025159 1725 incorporate1225 13117 give 321 238 Hoag 1610185 2312 1611261920 348 289121723 hold 312 184 2419 257 independent3515 3616 3118 435 holds 151 1721 3020 3117 194 2311416 given 71 148 Honor 425 67 32236710 independently

factors 319 141012 253 76 815 9215 335 3918 310 920111320 124 go 319 1123 1014 11224214 437 individual 24312562124 135 1519 1216 138focused 1917 ineligible 2921131025 3615 182 261718 161 1714followed 3919 3315 401920

facts 1925 2810 2913 1810 196Ford 149 inquiries 824420 3521 3923 44725form 1918 insanity 149

factual 307 goals 264 hope 1613formed 2110 insofar 44193223 4424 goes 192 2716 hung 1311forming 1923 instance 257

fails 4222 272025 3710 hypotheticalforth 425 2814failure 366 4111 821 325forward 320 instructs 142

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insufficient 296 1416 1918 1115 1210 laws 4113 3917 intellectual 514 Ithaca 117 135 141519 lead 310 3121 making 83 intend 4423 ie 73 1518 1710 leave 3411 manner 2415 intends 445 18818 193 left 1613 2019 marked 1320

Jintent 4418 191115 2010 legal 1515 marking 1318 JA 1820 3817 interlocutory 201525 213 2216 296 1323

38181717 21615 2221 3313 431215 matter 111 289 Jackson 317intermediate 237 2445 legally 292324 3523 40513jeopardy 39112122 2222 256121524 lets 1418 274 412 442

315 15111723420 2617 266 2759 2715 2913 4510 15192022interpret 1116 28421 291 level 7420 921 matters 2420 16323 176 interpretations 291217 302 925 258 mean 423 812 17182324168 31361625 liability 2919 820 2212 30101316interpreted 32518 3323 301819 3315 2323 2420 3113 32203119 33162024 life 518 2223 2515 2622

JOHN 117 25 interrupt 1115 3438 3514 2924 4320 2823 2915 1913introduced 362111320 light 525 1925 32224 3914

Joint 1019 389 121718 1815 3721 38414 414 meaning 325 3822182124 3823 3913 limitation 817 meanings 93

judge 412 103 IQ 515151925 4041422 limitations 514 means 420 914 103 12131564161920 4114 42610 517 3313 281115 318 625 74 813 4216 4323 line 620 2020 meant 206

judgment 8378161923 441017 457 2021 mental 420 54 88121418912 195 lines 39 520 61217

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judicial 3825 Kennedys 821issue 317 419 look 621 354 1361321243931516 kind 15237367 95 4111 14317 1923 426152224 251825141718 159 looked 3022 20478 2113

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405513 412 81821 9712 maintain 1723issued 1822 417 84 1118 44291618 1010 maintainedissues 614 129 1413

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necessity 2525 2112 221012 4015 43243616 382 Petition 59 need 621 231921 254 pages 59 1811 mitigation 77 1812 needed 518 256 2611 42221018 117 Petitioner 14 needs 512 182 2720 3215 panel 1919201220 1314 116 249 36

181625 349141521 229 30142223 2312 4213 never 45 518 3423 355 3124 3215374 3924 place 331

3320 345 3625 37125 3534 3910 4011 4319 placing 2219 4310 371423 4120 panels 1918mitigator 417 4219

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normal 288 operation 1516 particularly2621 341524 points 4217 normally 224 3419 619Mizer 115 238 Poland 13215

2525 2813 opinion 205 parties 3253457 424 1322 141 noted 4216 2111 108 11165710 725 posed 4413 novo 106 opinions 1923 party 89 2120 814 921115 position 189 number 74 247 opportunity 2618917 10514 2925 443

2411 252021 14910 passages 3917111622 1215 positions 403 265 354 oral 111 22 35 penalty 45921138 158 161 possess 155 3620 3734 1913 1117 2181714 181020 possessed 1425

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

311 510 183 4217 put 4025 27 4212 1512 165 18111525 primarily 392 put-in-jeopardy recites 4419 307 4214 191 37910 prior 102425 177 recognize 420 Respondent 3719 387 22716 248 recognized 118 26 1914

Q4012 439 2411 3023 3620 responding 425 question 5234415 451 364 record 423 56 response 244

1016 128posture 109 problem 721 51622 8810 2418 333 165 1812226 3424 152324 285 1046724 3716 3818 2221 245post-Atkins 58 4371115 1123 181423 412123265 30714613 78 816 problems 437 3022 371724 result 824 913 334 35252112 432 4312 381219 3916 2513 3121 365 393 421 449 procedural 224 4025 432525 retardation 420 4324 44812post-conviction 226 3424 4420 452 5420 61317 441357 procedure 2825 refer 815 619 71417

questions 186precedent 1721 3225 341220 reference 64 81 91922426 455precise 2518 342125 355 392021 101121722

quite 141617precisely 344 proceed 2821 referred 3918 11271125407preclude 349 proceeding 63 regard 408 1261123

precluded 222 153 201 regarded 411 137132124Rprecludes 323 2218 2318 regardless 2023 14317 1923 R 31preclusion 419 24812 252 relating 61213 205791618raise 3825 392 91 151011 2810 2916 15910 21771424

39121421171819 318 3216 relevance 1320 22791424raised 247 393 221 261910 387 444 relevant 1223 2322 2439

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1318 263241414 321 prosecution remember 162 392024 401 3015 4143246 172 364 render 2921 419212325

reading 262preponderance prosecutor rendering 1923 424 43218really 4252317 3512 1011 119 205 454 reason 424presented 117 35161821 reopen 2824 retarded 313

3322 3441925 protection 1619 reopened 669 417 85 1118 395prevent 1515 proven 243 611 129 1413

reasonable 3201722 psychiatrist repeated 3821 271821 3411 125 1310prevented 4313 1922 required 815 388131620438previously 156 psychologists 391 441521

reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

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221315 2910 serve 264 stakes 407 2211 2713S 322425 serves 264 stand 328 2916 3223S 21 31

return 1616 set 425 standard 425 subsequentlysake 382 reveals 371824 severe 4321 2318 4310 3023 4119Sam 3110

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reverse 2723 shot 1547 283 state 41921 3372922 4321 456 show 422 154 510 715 substantial 517saying 912

review 10719 4411 1111 148 successive 315241221 2815 1021 1313 shown 3812 152568 167 1623 17531617 328 1825 2310 shows 319 16814 172 suffers 514163423 3923 254 4317 Shuffling 3110 189 193420 suffice 57 88 4013 431 4415 significance 1925 2419 sufficient 2923says 419 511

reviewed 921 238 252 3215 3412 311 4422524 1322 reviewing 414 3313 415 351 361025 suggest 810221317 272

2319 significant 514 3791016 suggested 36132717 288 Revised 1222 similar 312021 386771015 summarily3711 3811 reweighing simple 1423 3824 4024 27234111

2311 simply 1112 412224 4225 Sunnen 1514second 315 154 right 418 1115 1424 155 44425 support 43515710 1723

268 27415 17823 stated 2711 supports 2819328 338 311416 377 Sixth 1311 142 4221 451 suppose 5233624 4220

rise 719 1720 2111 statement 1218 1421 27104310 risk 371 435812 456 131215 414 Supreme 1112secondly 3919 ROBERTS 33 skills 51717 4216 4317 413 51 616 secure 3522

1911 2912 622 817 448111924 71124 1016 see 24516302 3611 sole 359 statements 286 1124 12132616 308 4210 457 Solicitor 115 States 1112 1331216seeing 402

role 2391024 somebody 276 148 2019 1421 151sell 1423 2623 sorry 610 3817 3420 3715 182124 207 sense 45 94

rule 43 2018 4116 4112 4220 2025 214144 1625 22131517 sort 1623 2920 States 3818 2319212524 2711 2817 3612 398 3918 403 2720 3416sentence 410 291020 329 4111 4215 439 372623924 1624 3219192021 SOUTER 811 statute 152 43161744 2117 322324 332 818 971216 statutory 1221 sure 3218 3913 2121 2320 33991017 201015 244 1224 3915254 2924 3319 34410 256121524 step 2312 surely 16243623 375143420 3125 3218 STEVENS Swenson 31740413 4320

rules 1516 166 332162024 1115 1818 41 272 3310 sentenced 62 1691215 343 3913 4323 441017 sword 118sentencer 49 3225 Souters 426 straight 422710 141 Truling 2914 specific 812 stretch 392222sentences 4025

T 2113313 1125 3921 strikes 3611sentencing take 521 1712 run 720 1521 specifically 519 submitted 458301625

1717 34131524 spoke 51919 4510separate 39 taken 173 2315 stage 3018 subsequent 63serious 281

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3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

71114 2417 told 71225 understanding Washington 18 X2423 409 920 1114 2623 wasnt 957

x 1274115 431 3814 unexhausted 1015 181418 technical 394 tomorrow 3217 171525 182 213 318 367 Ytechnically 297 tracking 4112 unique 226 401111 415

years 211tells 147 traditional 253 34135 421 yellow 4221ten 4211 3221 United 1112 way 179 2123

Tennard 721 treat 1134 3715 2223 235 0 terms 2712 treated 722 unreasonable 2539 324 08-598 15test 1819 1316 298 1011 1924 3525 testified 1219 trial 412 921 unsworn 1218 ways 2422 1

1813 104 1424 unusual 3224 4218 101 1811testifying 1921 1813 28912 urging 2116 weighed 2612 101a 59testimony 511 28121317 use 1425 1522 weighing 3415 104a 59 1811

1819 358 3020 311113 1611 2415 3424 1102 113 32 text 177 358 444 uses 2610 weight 1018 1154 459Thank 1911 true 219 usually 2421 1314 4319 143 381818

42910 457 try 1418 went 1110 153 3810Vtheory 2822 trying 2421 1225 202 16 4222 v 15 149 241 304911 264 2515 160 3822 4324 272 3310things 2918 turns 2423 were 1714 18 4222vaguely 2923713 4021 3210 2113 241722 19 26various 12204112 4218 two 6711 93 314 40922 1992 112vastly 3515think 7817 89 1224 159 4114 1996 112verdict 12289 92 1122 247111823 weve 324 345 version 161813122 143 251 264 White 241 2 versus 34171419 1519 2918 374 win 272310 2009 19

41 21112013 2110 40325 4218 winner 211719 2254(d)(1) 4314vigorously237 253 268 436 221 261025 2254(d)(2) 1919

10212711822 two-edged 118 Winter 5518 391112 434 violates 4181928101324 typical 224 1219 1921 4311violent 102529417 3014 204 357 27 19U virtually 369316 331822 Winters 1813 292904 1222

ultimate 2122352 36215 Winters 511W2125 222325 33619 39222 wishes 2415Wainwright2335 2410 427 won 2120 276 3 24 1225

1492614 273thinks 351622 277 3617waiving 1712 43525 361third 316 word 46 1522 want 521 1544 uncritically 42 29thought 111 words 98 1023

2822 291 23251325 1422 worked 918 5wants 152underlying 307three 39 5234 wouldnt 15223521 50 1819underscored36819 4414 308

warden 13115three-part 1414 writ 395 4314 6271525 3910 understand432 wrong 1322

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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MR MIZER No Your Honor because it is

important to remember that this is -- this is a double

jeopardy case because of Ashe and because this is in

Federal habeas

With respect to your question about due

process or -- or other rules aside from due process

its possible that the State could have more expansive

common law or State law interpretations of the

collateral estoppel rules and maybe those would benefit

the defendant This Court in -- in the Hoag case

declined to use due process to incorporate collateral

estoppel rules constitutionally So in your case the

defendant would only be left with the hope that the

State would have more expansive collateral estoppel

rules

But to return to Ashe the defendant here is

claiming that he is entitled to a constitutionalized

version of collateral estoppel because of Ashe but hes

not entitled to that protection because Ashe applies

only where a defendant has previously been acquitted

and he has not

It also applies only in a case where the

defendant is facing a successive jeopardy of some sort

Now Mr Biess sentence is -- is surely at issue in

this case but its at issue in the sense that it would

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be at issue in say a direct appeal Its only --

there has only been one prosecution The State has only

taken one crack at convicting him or imposing a

sentence and that one sentence is whats at issue here

And so there is not anything successive

about this case and so the Double Jeopardy Clause

either through the put-in-jeopardy text or through the

acquittal requirement simply has nothing to offer Mr

Bies in the way of assistance

JUSTICE ALITO Could I ask you about --

about exhaustion What should we do about exhaustion

here I take it you dont -- youre not waiving

exhaustion

MR MIZER Your Honor were not contending

that the Ashe claim is unexhausted We agree that

thats exhausted because in the Ohio courts it is not

permissible to take an interlocutory appeal when a

double jeopardy claim has been denied as it was in this

case

And so we are fine with the Sixth Circuit

precedent that holds that in that case the Federal

courts can act in habeas to prevent exposure to a double

jeopardy We simply maintain that there is no second

jeopardy here But the Atkins claim itself is

unexhausted and the Federal magistrate that first dealt

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

1323 145 227 345 aware 211825 Biess 322276 3021 41820 108 1415 am 113 32 1313 1624act 1722

Amendment-r 1913 31322 459 2319 2925acting 211 1318 3124 32111 358 4217actual 2519 BAmerican 618 382 421218 4318287

B 2417analysis 31016 4222 437 binding 2713adaptive 517 back 522 135261 3924 arguments 2915621 816

182 192announced 4215 Blume 117 25additional 378 271625 40222822 Ashe 31725 42 19121315adequate 195

balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

balancing 1461717 232020 1715 2217 2419 251114adjudicate 322 bar 84 37112720 296 272511 2523 26222administer 421

42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

30124110 aside 166 3011 31515admit 3721 bases 3910appeals 206 asked 3816 3123 321222adopt 4112 basis 1918 2022321 287 3999 33121822adopted 356

2110 35913372 asking 3317 3417 352adversarial 109 3623 394APPEARAN assert 308 36219 3724199

beginning 47114 assistance 179 38917 392adversary 101 behalf 11617appellate 920 Association 618 40817 417AEDPA 321

2469 36925 103519 assume 381 4116affirmance 123 1914 42131212 2310 assumed 304 Bobby 13 34affirmed 712

behoove 89Appendix 510 assuming 418 borderline 620affords 144 believe 37131020 1812 Atkin 201515 3614 4318aggravating

411738922 Atkins 31317 borne 198111320 124 bench 1424applicable 305 32023 422 bound 15591213 139 benefit 423305 523 63 710 bounding 1412613 3615

169application 41 82 11514 brand 3219422 BENJAMIN4024 1471116 3324 345aggravation

115 238 35applied 2816 1724 184 brand-new2312 374 42124310 1979 2011 331718aggravator 923

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Breyer 1415 categorical 84 452 conclusion 310 convict 1422 1518 28421 3711 4219 clearly 2238 910 2223 319 291 313616 categorically 427 2411 373 convicting 173 325 4019 client 3378 conclusions conviction 3821

Breyers 333 category 2220 clinical 8378 1924 3610 4111 brief 4011 centers 324 81214 1412 conclusive 64 correct 91115

4221 certain 719 1922 20488 218 416 1014 2012 briefs 101920 certainly 2022 2022 2113 condition 3617 3115 broad 2017 364 clinicians 618 conduct 2216 counsel 1911 brother 2516 challenge 4012 close 620 conflicting 515 4210 457 Bullington 47 4424 Code 1222 consensus 4118 course 2319 burden 3510 chance 322 collateral 316 consequences court 1112 38 burdens 3510 change 151415 42 1691114 1515 2216 31221 4713

changed 3713 1618 2810 consequential 414 51710C 4021 4218 301215 317 4219 616 71112

C 115 2138 characterizati 3120 consider 2517 724 1016 315 4212 249 2520 Columbus 115 considerations 115624 121

call 3616 charge 1214 combination 2424 1212 13312called 513 charged 1215 321222 considered 131619 1422

401523 1220 combined 2219 1825 15113 1610 capital 301625 Chief 337 299 Considering 181331121 care 251 3518 191115 2912 come 522 822 725 19116 2012 careful 87 2917 302 825 107 258 consistent 321 2067 2114 carefully 55 361120 4210 4423 181416 197 23192021

621 457 comes 923 336 246171720 carry 1512 Circuit 1311 2722 Constitution 2567 2717 case 31524 142 1720 coming 3218 3191219 272123 2811

4111223 2111 438 commits 311 3715 4120 2914 3022 524 620 819 456 committed constitutionali 3321 3416 82022 1219 Circuits 435 3523 83 1617 3620 3712614111921 4313 common 168 constitutionally 371923 3810 163101222 circumstances 2920 1612 197 3912 4024 1625 17619 231416 2413 compelling 391 411824 439 1721 18125 2613 422 3615 contained 52 4321 444 1822 1919 claim 323 1715 completely 77 contending 451 21418 231 171824 3711 conceded 3717 1714 courts 322 716 259 2722 3916 4099 3815 4122 contest 101 718 920 105 2824 291 40171818 conception 3657 371 113 1716223110 3358 41782223 2017 contesting 3625 2321 2614 342 35322 422 concerns 254 context 49 778 courts 319 52 366121417 claimed 386 concession 1410 1522 123 1824 4316 45189 claiming 1617 3821 391823 2245 3036 1920 221112

cases 1514 241 clarifying 4324 3925 4010 30161925 2219 3624 26379 2955 clause 311 176 4324 34141423 3712 4020 3015 322 2623 301013 concessions 379 428 4316 3621 376 3114 397 4216 continuing 101 crack 173

catch-all 131 clear 616 402 concluded 57 contrary 286 creates 2213

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credible 2915 3819 411 201620 2425 1522 162 1619 crime 351823 4325 4420 4415 1761822 entitles 3112 crimes 3024 defendants 43 determined 139 3091216 equivalent 296 criminal 225 defendants 1920 203 3113 3220 ESQ 11517 23

2919 3018 2713 2218 248 doubt 125 258 3314 defense 338 2712 1311 276 essence 2215

defined 48 developments Dr 551118 essential 2323 D defining 84 4117 1218 1812 essentially 295

D 31 definition 534 difference 799 1921 204 establishingdaily 518 61215 716 24616 3520 357 2910 3511 dangerousness 718 1922 different 614 drawn 202022 estoppel 316

1110 20481624 77 82 93 drugs 1423 43 1691214DAVID 13 2113 229 1521 258 due 1523 1656 1618 301215de 106 2922 3214 341419 3515 1611 3678 3825 3939deal 1015 3556 432 3613 373 DC 18 391516 426 dealing 216 definitional 407 4418 42152224

E3614 4220 difficulty 402 evaluated 369 dealt 1725 E 21 311 definitions 52 direct 10719 Everythingsdeath 45910 earlier 44 819 definitively 1021 1313 2812

410121421 early 8221817 171 378 evidence 5111562 924 1117 easiest 1123demonstrated 4110 4317 71922 81 218172125 effect 144 1513 55 disagree 4419 1062224222425 236 2210 234denied 1718 disagreement 11710122522 2615 3215Denno 317 325 121623 1321 2921 3118 effectively 82depending 329 discover 3120 181420233315 3521 Eighth 131823describe 2310 discretion 141 1925 203 3623 37514 145 418192421 2521 discussion 1917 2317 296 401219 either 89 177 described 1525 disease 1225 3191117

decided 318 2413 29182323 dismissed 396 3517 368211919 2511 3017 3314describes 239 dispositive 820 3625 4410 271922 3422 elements 535describing 325 824 913 452 3513 3911 3413 4414designed 2424 3925 exactly 2020

decision 319 453determination disproportion 259 2824 52 1117 elevate 261658 8222325 375 example 242 1822 191921 embraced 411999 124 1924 disproportion 2819 21412 2212 embracing2122 2336 3714 excerpts 1020 221219 299 2113261417 3213 dispute 324 excluded 718 3624 3713 enacting 42193223 3357 disregarded excuse 418 4020 engage 23113539 439 438 execute 3410

declined 1611 engaged 106454 distortion 4321 4120 423 defect 1225 ensure 195determinations doctrine 1511 executed 2214 defendant 525 enters 37192123 1517 446

624 161013 entirely 336determinative doing 724 133 executing 84 16162023 3419261919 134 246 349 execution 406 287 291924 entitle 2924determine 312 342021 413 3018 312 311 4319513 617 double 3911 exhausted 1716 3314 381215 entitled 16171212 1412 1510171920 exhaustion

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

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71114 2417 told 71225 understanding Washington 18 X2423 409 920 1114 2623 wasnt 957

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42910 457 try 1418 went 1110 153 3810Vtheory 2822 trying 2421 1225 202 16 4222 v 15 149 241 304911 264 2515 160 3822 4324 272 3310things 2918 turns 2423 were 1714 18 4222vaguely 2923713 4021 3210 2113 241722 19 26various 12204112 4218 two 6711 93 314 40922 1992 112vastly 3515think 7817 89 1224 159 4114 1996 112verdict 12289 92 1122 247111823 weve 324 345 version 161813122 143 251 264 White 241 2 versus 34171419 1519 2918 374 win 272310 2009 19

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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be at issue in say a direct appeal Its only --

there has only been one prosecution The State has only

taken one crack at convicting him or imposing a

sentence and that one sentence is whats at issue here

And so there is not anything successive

about this case and so the Double Jeopardy Clause

either through the put-in-jeopardy text or through the

acquittal requirement simply has nothing to offer Mr

Bies in the way of assistance

JUSTICE ALITO Could I ask you about --

about exhaustion What should we do about exhaustion

here I take it you dont -- youre not waiving

exhaustion

MR MIZER Your Honor were not contending

that the Ashe claim is unexhausted We agree that

thats exhausted because in the Ohio courts it is not

permissible to take an interlocutory appeal when a

double jeopardy claim has been denied as it was in this

case

And so we are fine with the Sixth Circuit

precedent that holds that in that case the Federal

courts can act in habeas to prevent exposure to a double

jeopardy We simply maintain that there is no second

jeopardy here But the Atkins claim itself is

unexhausted and the Federal magistrate that first dealt

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

1323 145 227 345 aware 211825 Biess 322276 3021 41820 108 1415 am 113 32 1313 1624act 1722

Amendment-r 1913 31322 459 2319 2925acting 211 1318 3124 32111 358 4217actual 2519 BAmerican 618 382 421218 4318287

B 2417analysis 31016 4222 437 binding 2713adaptive 517 back 522 135261 3924 arguments 2915621 816

182 192announced 4215 Blume 117 25additional 378 271625 40222822 Ashe 31725 42 19121315adequate 195

balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

balancing 1461717 232020 1715 2217 2419 251114adjudicate 322 bar 84 37112720 296 272511 2523 26222administer 421

42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

30124110 aside 166 3011 31515admit 3721 bases 3910appeals 206 asked 3816 3123 321222adopt 4112 basis 1918 2022321 287 3999 33121822adopted 356

2110 35913372 asking 3317 3417 352adversarial 109 3623 394APPEARAN assert 308 36219 3724199

beginning 47114 assistance 179 38917 392adversary 101 behalf 11617appellate 920 Association 618 40817 417AEDPA 321

2469 36925 103519 assume 381 4116affirmance 123 1914 42131212 2310 assumed 304 Bobby 13 34affirmed 712

behoove 89Appendix 510 assuming 418 borderline 620affords 144 believe 37131020 1812 Atkin 201515 3614 4318aggravating

411738922 Atkins 31317 borne 198111320 124 bench 1424applicable 305 32023 422 bound 15591213 139 benefit 423305 523 63 710 bounding 1412613 3615

169application 41 82 11514 brand 3219422 BENJAMIN4024 1471116 3324 345aggravation

115 238 35applied 2816 1724 184 brand-new2312 374 42124310 1979 2011 331718aggravator 923

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Breyer 1415 categorical 84 452 conclusion 310 convict 1422 1518 28421 3711 4219 clearly 2238 910 2223 319 291 313616 categorically 427 2411 373 convicting 173 325 4019 client 3378 conclusions conviction 3821

Breyers 333 category 2220 clinical 8378 1924 3610 4111 brief 4011 centers 324 81214 1412 conclusive 64 correct 91115

4221 certain 719 1922 20488 218 416 1014 2012 briefs 101920 certainly 2022 2022 2113 condition 3617 3115 broad 2017 364 clinicians 618 conduct 2216 counsel 1911 brother 2516 challenge 4012 close 620 conflicting 515 4210 457 Bullington 47 4424 Code 1222 consensus 4118 course 2319 burden 3510 chance 322 collateral 316 consequences court 1112 38 burdens 3510 change 151415 42 1691114 1515 2216 31221 4713

changed 3713 1618 2810 consequential 414 51710C 4021 4218 301215 317 4219 616 71112

C 115 2138 characterizati 3120 consider 2517 724 1016 315 4212 249 2520 Columbus 115 considerations 115624 121

call 3616 charge 1214 combination 2424 1212 13312called 513 charged 1215 321222 considered 131619 1422

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

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3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

71114 2417 told 71225 understanding Washington 18 X2423 409 920 1114 2623 wasnt 957

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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with this case in Federal Court held that it was

unexhausted And so now this case needs to go back down

to the Ohio postconviction court for what that court to

do what it was about to do which is to hold an Atkins

hearing for the very first time in this case

If there are no further questions Ill

reserve the balance of my time

JUSTICE KENNEDY Let -- let me just ask

does the State have any position now as to his IQ

MR MIZER No Your Honor The Ohio

postconviction court said at pages 101 to 104a of the

Petition Appendix that the IQ remains in question Dr

Winters testified at trial that it was 68 or 69 she

wasnt perfectly consistent But other record evidence

introduced later on postconviction proceedings is not

consistent with that and so that still needs to be

definitively --

JUSTICE STEVENS Wasnt there some

testimony that one test was only 50

MR MIZER That evidence is in the JA and

it was introduced after -- after the Ohio Supreme Court

had issued the decision at issue in this case So that

evidence is in the record but it is not part of the

Ohio Supreme Courts finding It was introduced on

postconviction review So it needs to be considered by

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

1323 145 227 345 aware 211825 Biess 322276 3021 41820 108 1415 am 113 32 1313 1624act 1722

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3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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the experts and by the postconviction court when this

goes back to --

JUSTICE KENNEDY Will the State -- would

you say the State has an independent obligation to -- to

ensure itself that he has an adequate IQ

MR MIZER Absolutely Your Honor in order

to be constitutionally consistent with -- with Atkins

But that would be borne out through the -- the

adversarial process in the Atkins hearing that hasnt

occurred yet

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Blume

ORAL ARGUMENT OF JOHN H BLUME

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT

MR BLUME Mr Chief Justice may it please

the Court

Much of the discussion so far has focused on

issues which did not form the basis of the panels

decision The panel decided this case under 2254(d)(2)

And what the panel determined was that the State courts

decision that Dr Winter who was the testifying

psychiatrist did not apply the clinical definition of

mental retardation in forming her opinions and rendering

her conclusions was an unreasonable determination of the

facts in light of the evidence presented in the State

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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court proceeding

And it was on that basis the court went

through the evidence and determined that in fact

Dr Winter had used the clinical definition of mental

retardation in rendering her opinion and that that

meant that the Ohio Court of Appeals and the Ohio

Supreme Court made a finding of mental retardation based

on the clinical -- the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER But even -- even if thats

so thats not necessarily an -- an Atkins finding

isnt that correct

MR BLUME No I think it is Its not as

if theres something --

JUSTICE SOUTER Atkin -- Atkin -- we didnt

determine what the definition of retardation was We --

we operated in Atkins on a broad conception of

retardation and we came down with a general rule But

we left it for later litigation starting in the States

to determine exactly how that line ought to be drawn

We didnt know where the line ought to be

drawn at that point and certainly the clinical

psychologists didnt know regardless of what the --

what definition was being used

JUSTICE GINSBURG And the Ohio Supreme

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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3820 3921 412 441621

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Court acting years before Atkins

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE GINSBURG The -- wasnt the Ohio

Supreme Court decision in this case pre-Atkins

MR BLUME Yes it was But the --

JUSTICE GINSBURG And it was dealing with

retardation as a mitigator not retardation as

conclusive that there can be no death penalty

MR BLUME Thats true but the -- the

important point I think that formed the basis of the

Sixth Circuit opinion was that in Lott versus -- which

is the Ohio decision post-Atkins in Lott they said

were embracing the clinical definition of mental

retardation

JUSTICE GINSBURG But before you get to

whether -- anything like that you are urging issue

preclusion against the winner It was a death sentence

in this case And I am not aware of issue preclusion

operating against a judgment winner Issue preclusion

is for the party who fought this out and won

Here we have a death sentence So there --

the ultimate determination whatever intermediate

determinations might have been made on the way like

mental retardation exists and was a mitigator the

ultimate judgment is death And I am not aware of in

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

1323 145 227 345 aware 211825 Biess 322276 3021 41820 108 1415 am 113 32 1313 1624act 1722

Amendment-r 1913 31322 459 2319 2925acting 211 1318 3124 32111 358 4217actual 2519 BAmerican 618 382 421218 4318287

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

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all of issue preclusion where a judgment winner is

precluded

MR BLUME Well clearly that is the more

typical procedural context and it happens normally in

the criminal context of someone thats been acquitted

But the procedural posture here is unique because what

you have is a prior finding of mental retardation

pre-Atkins and clearly at least according to the

panel using the definition of mental retardation which

is now in effect in Ohio

Then subsequent to that you had this Courts

decision in Ohio -- I mean this Courts decision in

Atkins which creates a retroactive new rule which says

that people with mental retardation cant be executed

The essence of a retroactive new rule is that it

attaches new legal consequences to prior conduct

So it is both the rule of Ashe which says

when an issue has been determined in a final proceeding

combined with this Courts decision in Atkins placing a

category of people --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the question is what

is the issue and an intermediate finding say

mitigation on the way to the ultimate conclusion life

or death is not the same issue as if retardation is

found no death penalty Its -- its the ultimate

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

1323 145 227 345 aware 211825 Biess 322276 3021 41820 108 1415 am 113 32 1313 1624act 1722

Amendment-r 1913 31322 459 2319 2925acting 211 1318 3124 32111 358 4217actual 2519 BAmerican 618 382 421218 4318287

B 2417analysis 31016 4222 437 binding 2713adaptive 517 back 522 135261 3924 arguments 2915621 816

182 192announced 4215 Blume 117 25additional 378 271625 40222822 Ashe 31725 42 19121315adequate 195

balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

balancing 1461717 232020 1715 2217 2419 251114adjudicate 322 bar 84 37112720 296 272511 2523 26222administer 421

42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

30124110 aside 166 3011 31515admit 3721 bases 3910appeals 206 asked 3816 3123 321222adopt 4112 basis 1918 2022321 287 3999 33121822adopted 356

2110 35913372 asking 3317 3417 352adversarial 109 3623 394APPEARAN assert 308 36219 3724199

beginning 47114 assistance 179 38917 392adversary 101 behalf 11617appellate 920 Association 618 40817 417AEDPA 321

2469 36925 103519 assume 381 4116affirmance 123 1914 42131212 2310 assumed 304 Bobby 13 34affirmed 712

behoove 89Appendix 510 assuming 418 borderline 620affords 144 believe 37131020 1812 Atkin 201515 3614 4318aggravating

411738922 Atkins 31317 borne 198111320 124 bench 1424applicable 305 32023 422 bound 15591213 139 benefit 423305 523 63 710 bounding 1412613 3615

169application 41 82 11514 brand 3219422 BENJAMIN4024 1471116 3324 345aggravation

115 238 35applied 2816 1724 184 brand-new2312 374 42124310 1979 2011 331718aggravator 923

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Breyer 1415 categorical 84 452 conclusion 310 convict 1422 1518 28421 3711 4219 clearly 2238 910 2223 319 291 313616 categorically 427 2411 373 convicting 173 325 4019 client 3378 conclusions conviction 3821

Breyers 333 category 2220 clinical 8378 1924 3610 4111 brief 4011 centers 324 81214 1412 conclusive 64 correct 91115

4221 certain 719 1922 20488 218 416 1014 2012 briefs 101920 certainly 2022 2022 2113 condition 3617 3115 broad 2017 364 clinicians 618 conduct 2216 counsel 1911 brother 2516 challenge 4012 close 620 conflicting 515 4210 457 Bullington 47 4424 Code 1222 consensus 4118 course 2319 burden 3510 chance 322 collateral 316 consequences court 1112 38 burdens 3510 change 151415 42 1691114 1515 2216 31221 4713

changed 3713 1618 2810 consequential 414 51710C 4021 4218 301215 317 4219 616 71112

C 115 2138 characterizati 3120 consider 2517 724 1016 315 4212 249 2520 Columbus 115 considerations 115624 121

call 3616 charge 1214 combination 2424 1212 13312called 513 charged 1215 321222 considered 131619 1422

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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issue in the case that was before the Ohio Supreme Court

is do the aggravators outweigh the mitigators Thats

the ultimate determination and thats what would have

preclusive effect not the many intermediate findings

that may have been made on the way to the ultimate

determination of death

MR BLUME Well Justice Ginsburg I think

that minimizes or does not give adequate significance to

what the Ohio Supreme Court describes as its role in --

on the appellate review And they describe their role

as being that they engage in an independent reweighing

of the mitigation against the aggravation A first step

of that is the identification of the mitigating

circumstances

So they have taken it upon themselves to

identify the mitigating circumstances and they have to

do that by a preponderance of the evidence which is the

same standard which exists now in a Lott proceeding

In the course of reviewing Mr Biess

sentence on appeal intermediate appeal of the court of

appeals and then the Ohio Supreme Court both courts

found that Mr Bies had mental retardation Its not

also -- I mean they have described this as an essential

function of their role and they also dont do it

uncritically

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

1323 145 227 345 aware 211825 Biess 322276 3021 41820 108 1415 am 113 32 1313 1624act 1722

Amendment-r 1913 31322 459 2319 2925acting 211 1318 3124 32111 358 4217actual 2519 BAmerican 618 382 421218 4318287

B 2417analysis 31016 4222 437 binding 2713adaptive 517 back 522 135261 3924 arguments 2915621 816

182 192announced 4215 Blume 117 25additional 378 271625 40222822 Ashe 31725 42 19121315adequate 195

balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

balancing 1461717 232020 1715 2217 2419 251114adjudicate 322 bar 84 37112720 296 272511 2523 26222administer 421

42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

30124110 aside 166 3011 31515admit 3721 bases 3910appeals 206 asked 3816 3123 321222adopt 4112 basis 1918 2022321 287 3999 33121822adopted 356

2110 35913372 asking 3317 3417 352adversarial 109 3623 394APPEARAN assert 308 36219 3724199

beginning 47114 assistance 179 38917 392adversary 101 behalf 11617appellate 920 Association 618 40817 417AEDPA 321

2469 36925 103519 assume 381 4116affirmance 123 1914 42131212 2310 assumed 304 Bobby 13 34affirmed 712

behoove 89Appendix 510 assuming 418 borderline 620affords 144 believe 37131020 1812 Atkin 201515 3614 4318aggravating

411738922 Atkins 31317 borne 198111320 124 bench 1424applicable 305 32023 422 bound 15591213 139 benefit 423305 523 63 710 bounding 1412613 3615

169application 41 82 11514 brand 3219422 BENJAMIN4024 1471116 3324 345aggravation

115 238 35applied 2816 1724 184 brand-new2312 374 42124310 1979 2011 331718aggravator 923

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Breyer 1415 categorical 84 452 conclusion 310 convict 1422 1518 28421 3711 4219 clearly 2238 910 2223 319 291 313616 categorically 427 2411 373 convicting 173 325 4019 client 3378 conclusions conviction 3821

Breyers 333 category 2220 clinical 8378 1924 3610 4111 brief 4011 centers 324 81214 1412 conclusive 64 correct 91115

4221 certain 719 1922 20488 218 416 1014 2012 briefs 101920 certainly 2022 2022 2113 condition 3617 3115 broad 2017 364 clinicians 618 conduct 2216 counsel 1911 brother 2516 challenge 4012 close 620 conflicting 515 4210 457 Bullington 47 4424 Code 1222 consensus 4118 course 2319 burden 3510 chance 322 collateral 316 consequences court 1112 38 burdens 3510 change 151415 42 1691114 1515 2216 31221 4713

changed 3713 1618 2810 consequential 414 51710C 4021 4218 301215 317 4219 616 71112

C 115 2138 characterizati 3120 consider 2517 724 1016 315 4212 249 2520 Columbus 115 considerations 115624 121

call 3616 charge 1214 combination 2424 1212 13312called 513 charged 1215 321222 considered 131619 1422

401523 1220 combined 2219 1825 15113 1610 capital 301625 Chief 337 299 Considering 181331121 care 251 3518 191115 2912 come 522 822 725 19116 2012 careful 87 2917 302 825 107 258 consistent 321 2067 2114 carefully 55 361120 4210 4423 181416 197 23192021

621 457 comes 923 336 246171720 carry 1512 Circuit 1311 2722 Constitution 2567 2717 case 31524 142 1720 coming 3218 3191219 272123 2811

4111223 2111 438 commits 311 3715 4120 2914 3022 524 620 819 456 committed constitutionali 3321 3416 82022 1219 Circuits 435 3523 83 1617 3620 3712614111921 4313 common 168 constitutionally 371923 3810 163101222 circumstances 2920 1612 197 3912 4024 1625 17619 231416 2413 compelling 391 411824 439 1721 18125 2613 422 3615 contained 52 4321 444 1822 1919 claim 323 1715 completely 77 contending 451 21418 231 171824 3711 conceded 3717 1714 courts 322 716 259 2722 3916 4099 3815 4122 contest 101 718 920 105 2824 291 40171818 conception 3657 371 113 1716223110 3358 41782223 2017 contesting 3625 2321 2614 342 35322 422 concerns 254 context 49 778 courts 319 52 366121417 claimed 386 concession 1410 1522 123 1824 4316 45189 claiming 1617 3821 391823 2245 3036 1920 221112

cases 1514 241 clarifying 4324 3925 4010 30161925 2219 3624 26379 2955 clause 311 176 4324 34141423 3712 4020 3015 322 2623 301013 concessions 379 428 4316 3621 376 3114 397 4216 continuing 101 crack 173

catch-all 131 clear 616 402 concluded 57 contrary 286 creates 2213

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credible 2915 3819 411 201620 2425 1522 162 1619 crime 351823 4325 4420 4415 1761822 entitles 3112 crimes 3024 defendants 43 determined 139 3091216 equivalent 296 criminal 225 defendants 1920 203 3113 3220 ESQ 11517 23

2919 3018 2713 2218 248 doubt 125 258 3314 defense 338 2712 1311 276 essence 2215

defined 48 developments Dr 551118 essential 2323 D defining 84 4117 1218 1812 essentially 295

D 31 definition 534 difference 799 1921 204 establishingdaily 518 61215 716 24616 3520 357 2910 3511 dangerousness 718 1922 different 614 drawn 202022 estoppel 316

1110 20481624 77 82 93 drugs 1423 43 1691214DAVID 13 2113 229 1521 258 due 1523 1656 1618 301215de 106 2922 3214 341419 3515 1611 3678 3825 3939deal 1015 3556 432 3613 373 DC 18 391516 426 dealing 216 definitional 407 4418 42152224

E3614 4220 difficulty 402 evaluated 369 dealt 1725 E 21 311 definitions 52 direct 10719 Everythingsdeath 45910 earlier 44 819 definitively 1021 1313 2812

410121421 early 8221817 171 378 evidence 5111562 924 1117 easiest 1123demonstrated 4110 4317 71922 81 218172125 effect 144 1513 55 disagree 4419 1062224222425 236 2210 234denied 1718 disagreement 11710122522 2615 3215Denno 317 325 121623 1321 2921 3118 effectively 82depending 329 discover 3120 181420233315 3521 Eighth 131823describe 2310 discretion 141 1925 203 3623 37514 145 418192421 2521 discussion 1917 2317 296 401219 either 89 177 described 1525 disease 1225 3191117

decided 318 2413 29182323 dismissed 396 3517 368211919 2511 3017 3314describes 239 dispositive 820 3625 4410 271922 3422 elements 535describing 325 824 913 452 3513 3911 3413 4414designed 2424 3925 exactly 2020

decision 319 453determination disproportion 259 2824 52 1117 elevate 261658 8222325 375 example 242 1822 191921 embraced 411999 124 1924 disproportion 2819 21412 2212 embracing2122 2336 3714 excerpts 1020 221219 299 2113261417 3213 dispute 324 excluded 718 3624 3713 enacting 42193223 3357 disregarded excuse 418 4020 engage 23113539 439 438 execute 3410

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

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There are other cases State v White for

example in which they made an express finding that the

individual had not proven his mental retardation

JUSTICE SOUTER In -- in response to

Justice Ginsburgs question I dont see why it makes

any difference which court is doing what She -- she

raised two objections Number one is that so far as the

issue being determined in the prior proceeding the

characterization of his mental state as retardation was

at most a subsidiary not an ultimate fact

Number two the conclusion of that prior

proceeding was that he lost And shes saying in those

in either of those circumstances the subsidiary finding

is not preclusive and any finding is not preclusive in

the manner in which he wishes to use it here

I dont see what difference it makes whether

were talking about court A or court B What is -- what

is your response to those two objections

MR BLUME Well on the first point I

didnt mean that it necessarily matters which court it

did I was saying that -- trying to describe -- usually

the necessary part which is in some ways what were

talking about here was it necessary turns on two

considerations And the necessary -- its designed to

determine as I understand it one was the issue

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

1323 145 227 345 aware 211825 Biess 322276 3021 41820 108 1415 am 113 32 1313 1624act 1722

Amendment-r 1913 31322 459 2319 2925acting 211 1318 3124 32111 358 4217actual 2519 BAmerican 618 382 421218 4318287

B 2417analysis 31016 4222 437 binding 2713adaptive 517 back 522 135261 3924 arguments 2915621 816

182 192announced 4215 Blume 117 25additional 378 271625 40222822 Ashe 31725 42 19121315adequate 195

balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

balancing 1461717 232020 1715 2217 2419 251114adjudicate 322 bar 84 37112720 296 272511 2523 26222administer 421

42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

30124110 aside 166 3011 31515admit 3721 bases 3910appeals 206 asked 3816 3123 321222adopt 4112 basis 1918 2022321 287 3999 33121822adopted 356

2110 35913372 asking 3317 3417 352adversarial 109 3623 394APPEARAN assert 308 36219 3724199

beginning 47114 assistance 179 38917 392adversary 101 behalf 11617appellate 920 Association 618 40817 417AEDPA 321

2469 36925 103519 assume 381 4116affirmance 123 1914 42131212 2310 assumed 304 Bobby 13 34affirmed 712

behoove 89Appendix 510 assuming 418 borderline 620affords 144 believe 37131020 1812 Atkin 201515 3614 4318aggravating

411738922 Atkins 31317 borne 198111320 124 bench 1424applicable 305 32023 422 bound 15591213 139 benefit 423305 523 63 710 bounding 1412613 3615

169application 41 82 11514 brand 3219422 BENJAMIN4024 1471116 3324 345aggravation

115 238 35applied 2816 1724 184 brand-new2312 374 42124310 1979 2011 331718aggravator 923

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Breyer 1415 categorical 84 452 conclusion 310 convict 1422 1518 28421 3711 4219 clearly 2238 910 2223 319 291 313616 categorically 427 2411 373 convicting 173 325 4019 client 3378 conclusions conviction 3821

Breyers 333 category 2220 clinical 8378 1924 3610 4111 brief 4011 centers 324 81214 1412 conclusive 64 correct 91115

4221 certain 719 1922 20488 218 416 1014 2012 briefs 101920 certainly 2022 2022 2113 condition 3617 3115 broad 2017 364 clinicians 618 conduct 2216 counsel 1911 brother 2516 challenge 4012 close 620 conflicting 515 4210 457 Bullington 47 4424 Code 1222 consensus 4118 course 2319 burden 3510 chance 322 collateral 316 consequences court 1112 38 burdens 3510 change 151415 42 1691114 1515 2216 31221 4713

changed 3713 1618 2810 consequential 414 51710C 4021 4218 301215 317 4219 616 71112

C 115 2138 characterizati 3120 consider 2517 724 1016 315 4212 249 2520 Columbus 115 considerations 115624 121

call 3616 charge 1214 combination 2424 1212 13312called 513 charged 1215 321222 considered 131619 1422

401523 1220 combined 2219 1825 15113 1610 capital 301625 Chief 337 299 Considering 181331121 care 251 3518 191115 2912 come 522 822 725 19116 2012 careful 87 2917 302 825 107 258 consistent 321 2067 2114 carefully 55 361120 4210 4423 181416 197 23192021

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cases 1514 241 clarifying 4324 3925 4010 30161925 2219 3624 26379 2955 clause 311 176 4324 34141423 3712 4020 3015 322 2623 301013 concessions 379 428 4316 3621 376 3114 397 4216 continuing 101 crack 173

catch-all 131 clear 616 402 concluded 57 contrary 286 creates 2213

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credible 2915 3819 411 201620 2425 1522 162 1619 crime 351823 4325 4420 4415 1761822 entitles 3112 crimes 3024 defendants 43 determined 139 3091216 equivalent 296 criminal 225 defendants 1920 203 3113 3220 ESQ 11517 23

2919 3018 2713 2218 248 doubt 125 258 3314 defense 338 2712 1311 276 essence 2215

defined 48 developments Dr 551118 essential 2323 D defining 84 4117 1218 1812 essentially 295

D 31 definition 534 difference 799 1921 204 establishingdaily 518 61215 716 24616 3520 357 2910 3511 dangerousness 718 1922 different 614 drawn 202022 estoppel 316

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decided 318 2413 29182323 dismissed 396 3517 368211919 2511 3017 3314describes 239 dispositive 820 3625 4410 271922 3422 elements 535describing 325 824 913 452 3513 3911 3413 4414designed 2424 3925 exactly 2020

decision 319 453determination disproportion 259 2824 52 1117 elevate 261658 8222325 375 example 242 1822 191921 embraced 411999 124 1924 disproportion 2819 21412 2212 embracing2122 2336 3714 excerpts 1020 221219 299 2113261417 3213 dispute 324 excluded 718 3624 3713 enacting 42193223 3357 disregarded excuse 418 4020 engage 23113539 439 438 execute 3410

declined 1611 engaged 106454 distortion 4321 4120 423 defect 1225 ensure 195determinations doctrine 1511 executed 2214 defendant 525 enters 37192123 1517 446

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17111113 fair 1116 353 fought 2120 going 1420 153 I existence 128 fairest 1123 found 111417 1518 3411 identical 36310exists 102 2124 far 522 1917 1221 136 3518 identification

2318 4118 247 291212 144 2225 grabs 2813 2313 expansive 167 favor 2713 2322 2577 grant 818 395 identify 2316

1614 Federal 164 261212 285 436 323 expert 1412 172125 181 3424 3723 granted 396 identity 3020

2915 2811 318 4124 granting 4314 302124experts 512 filed 4110 frankly 268 great 1015 ignores 4218

191 368 final 2218 function 2324 grounds 3911 illuminate 132 4414 find 524 1012 263 guidepost 1319 imagine 27416

explains 1315 267 further 186 131923 implement exposure 1722 finding 49 64 443 455 gun 14212325 1411 express 242 625 812 921 future 1110 1512 implementingexpressly 349 1211 1424 51G Hextending 48 1512 1824 important 162

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617 717 913 918 1010 hear 33371922 383 inaccurate101822 1413 1210 135 hearing 3122038511 3919 4411203 2410 2025 2136 422 512 185 4010 incentive 10152522 27312 2115 2221 199 2717findings 516 351424 365 299 334714 237 266 275 heinous 61234 3789 incentives 3633511 366 279 348 held 181 3320 3811 36712372022 383 3514 36313 3321fine 1720 includes 515163851111 3721 38414 helps 132first 31422 including 5113910 4122 4041422 highlighted 79615 1216 inconsistency

factor 62 715 4114 4216 hinge 4413135 1411 40211192021 Ginsburgs 245 history 1025159 1725 incorporate1225 13117 give 321 238 Hoag 1610185 2312 1611261920 348 289121723 hold 312 184 2419 257 independent3515 3616 3118 435 holds 151 1721 3020 3117 194 2311416 given 71 148 Honor 425 67 32236710 independently

factors 319 141012 253 76 815 9215 335 3918 310 920111320 124 go 319 1123 1014 11224214 437 individual 24312562124 135 1519 1216 138focused 1917 ineligible 2921131025 3615 182 261718 161 1714followed 3919 3315 401920

facts 1925 2810 2913 1810 196Ford 149 inquiries 824420 3521 3923 44725form 1918 insanity 149

factual 307 goals 264 hope 1613formed 2110 insofar 44193223 4424 goes 192 2716 hung 1311forming 1923 instance 257

fails 4222 272025 3710 hypotheticalforth 425 2814failure 366 4111 821 325forward 320 instructs 142

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insufficient 296 1416 1918 1115 1210 laws 4113 3917 intellectual 514 Ithaca 117 135 141519 lead 310 3121 making 83 intend 4423 ie 73 1518 1710 leave 3411 manner 2415 intends 445 18818 193 left 1613 2019 marked 1320

Jintent 4418 191115 2010 legal 1515 marking 1318 JA 1820 3817 interlocutory 201525 213 2216 296 1323

38181717 21615 2221 3313 431215 matter 111 289 Jackson 317intermediate 237 2445 legally 292324 3523 40513jeopardy 39112122 2222 256121524 lets 1418 274 412 442

315 15111723420 2617 266 2759 2715 2913 4510 15192022interpret 1116 28421 291 level 7420 921 matters 2420 16323 176 interpretations 291217 302 925 258 mean 423 812 17182324168 31361625 liability 2919 820 2212 30101316interpreted 32518 3323 301819 3315 2323 2420 3113 32203119 33162024 life 518 2223 2515 2622

JOHN 117 25 interrupt 1115 3438 3514 2924 4320 2823 2915 1913introduced 362111320 light 525 1925 32224 3914

Joint 1019 389 121718 1815 3721 38414 414 meaning 325 3822182124 3823 3913 limitation 817 meanings 93

judge 412 103 IQ 515151925 4041422 limitations 514 means 420 914 103 12131564161920 4114 42610 517 3313 281115 318 625 74 813 4216 4323 line 620 2020 meant 206

judgment 8378161923 441017 457 2021 mental 420 54 88121418912 195 lines 39 520 61217

K1412 211925258 38113 litigate 1016 618 71416221 261011 Kennedy 5213820 3921 3023 3524 81 91922282 322347 66923 73 412 441614 litigated 1418 101217223279 336 1419 18844141621 litigation 2019 11261125361 3819 1934523 2714 126112325

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

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quite 141617precisely 344 proceed 2821 referred 3918 11271125407preclude 349 proceeding 63 regard 408 1261123

precluded 222 153 201 regarded 411 137132124Rprecludes 323 2218 2318 regardless 2023 14317 1923 R 31preclusion 419 24812 252 relating 61213 205791618raise 3825 392 91 151011 2810 2916 15910 21771424

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reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

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reviewed 921 238 252 3215 3412 311 4422524 1322 reviewing 414 3313 415 351 361025 suggest 810221317 272

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rise 719 1720 2111 statement 1218 1421 27104310 risk 371 435812 456 131215 414 Supreme 1112secondly 3919 ROBERTS 33 skills 51717 4216 4317 413 51 616 secure 3522

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role 2391024 somebody 276 148 2019 1421 151sell 1423 2623 sorry 610 3817 3420 3715 182124 207 sense 45 94

rule 43 2018 4116 4112 4220 2025 214144 1625 22131517 sort 1623 2920 States 3818 2319212524 2711 2817 3612 398 3918 403 2720 3416sentence 410 291020 329 4111 4215 439 372623924 1624 3219192021 SOUTER 811 statute 152 43161744 2117 322324 332 818 971216 statutory 1221 sure 3218 3913 2121 2320 33991017 201015 244 1224 3915254 2924 3319 34410 256121524 step 2312 surely 16243623 375143420 3125 3218 STEVENS Swenson 31740413 4320

rules 1516 166 332162024 1115 1818 41 272 3310 sentenced 62 1691215 343 3913 4323 441017 sword 118sentencer 49 3225 Souters 426 straight 422710 141 Truling 2914 specific 812 stretch 392222sentences 4025

T 2113313 1125 3921 strikes 3611sentencing take 521 1712 run 720 1521 specifically 519 submitted 458301625

1717 34131524 spoke 51919 4510separate 39 taken 173 2315 stage 3018 subsequent 63serious 281

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3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

71114 2417 told 71225 understanding Washington 18 X2423 409 920 1114 2623 wasnt 957

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1813 104 1424 unusual 3224 4218 101 1811testifying 1921 1813 28912 urging 2116 weighed 2612 101a 59testimony 511 28121317 use 1425 1522 weighing 3415 104a 59 1811

1819 358 3020 311113 1611 2415 3424 1102 113 32 text 177 358 444 uses 2610 weight 1018 1154 459Thank 1911 true 219 usually 2421 1314 4319 143 381818

42910 457 try 1418 went 1110 153 3810Vtheory 2822 trying 2421 1225 202 16 4222 v 15 149 241 304911 264 2515 160 3822 4324 272 3310things 2918 turns 2423 were 1714 18 4222vaguely 2923713 4021 3210 2113 241722 19 26various 12204112 4218 two 6711 93 314 40922 1992 112vastly 3515think 7817 89 1224 159 4114 1996 112verdict 12289 92 1122 247111823 weve 324 345 version 161813122 143 251 264 White 241 2 versus 34171419 1519 2918 374 win 272310 2009 19

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ultimate 2122352 36215 Winters 511W2125 222325 33619 39222 wishes 2415Wainwright2335 2410 427 won 2120 276 3 24 1225

1492614 273thinks 351622 277 3617waiving 1712 43525 361third 316 word 46 1522 want 521 1544 uncritically 42 29thought 111 words 98 1023

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warden 13115three-part 1414 writ 395 4314 6271525 3910 understand432 wrong 1322

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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decided and two was it decided with some care for its

significance to the proceeding

And I think given the unique way in which

Ohio does the sentence review both of those concerns

are satisfied As for --

JUSTICE SOUTER If -- if the Ohio court had

found the court of first instance had found that the

IQ was at some different level it could have come out

exactly the same way it came out in this case couldnt

it

MR BLUME Yes it could have

JUSTICE SOUTER So the finding was not

necessary to the result

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE SOUTER I mean we went through

this with your brother and he pointed out yes it was

necessary to -- to consider the issue and to make some

kind of a finding -- I dont know how precise it had to

be -- but the finding that it made the -- the actual

number that was used or the characterization that was

used to describe that number was not necessary in order

in fact to impose the death penalty

MR BLUME Well I --

JUSTICE SOUTER And -- and the sense of

necessity which is used normally in -- in this kind of

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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2525 2813 opinion 205 parties 3253457 424 1322 141 noted 4216 2111 108 11165710 725 posed 4413 novo 106 opinions 1923 party 89 2120 814 921115 position 189 number 74 247 opportunity 2618917 10514 2925 443

2411 252021 14910 passages 3917111622 1215 positions 403 265 354 oral 111 22 35 penalty 45921138 158 161 possess 155 3620 3734 1913 1117 2181714 181020 possessed 1425

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

311 510 183 4217 put 4025 27 4212 1512 165 18111525 primarily 392 put-in-jeopardy recites 4419 307 4214 191 37910 prior 102425 177 recognize 420 Respondent 3719 387 22716 248 recognized 118 26 1914

Q4012 439 2411 3023 3620 responding 425 question 5234415 451 364 record 423 56 response 244

1016 128posture 109 problem 721 51622 8810 2418 333 165 1812226 3424 152324 285 1046724 3716 3818 2221 245post-Atkins 58 4371115 1123 181423 412123265 30714613 78 816 problems 437 3022 371724 result 824 913 334 35252112 432 4312 381219 3916 2513 3121 365 393 421 449 procedural 224 4025 432525 retardation 420 4324 44812post-conviction 226 3424 4420 452 5420 61317 441357 procedure 2825 refer 815 619 71417

questions 186precedent 1721 3225 341220 reference 64 81 91922426 455precise 2518 342125 355 392021 101121722

quite 141617precisely 344 proceed 2821 referred 3918 11271125407preclude 349 proceeding 63 regard 408 1261123

precluded 222 153 201 regarded 411 137132124Rprecludes 323 2218 2318 regardless 2023 14317 1923 R 31preclusion 419 24812 252 relating 61213 205791618raise 3825 392 91 151011 2810 2916 15910 21771424

39121421171819 318 3216 relevance 1320 22791424raised 247 393 221 261910 387 444 relevant 1223 2322 2439

3982913 306 proceedings 1520 2612 2717raises 3710322101121 1815 relief 4366 2817 301 ran 3713311 3516 process 1523 relitigated 74 311 3214reach 989 372 3824 166611 199 remaining 4211 341316 355 reached 910preclusive 611 prong 264 remains 1812 3571119reaching 352576 9514 144 proof 3510 remarks 1125 36522 3712 read 1237151316 234 properly 327 remedy 288 3717182225

1318 263241414 321 prosecution remember 162 392024 401 3015 4143246 172 364 render 2921 419212325

reading 262preponderance prosecutor rendering 1923 424 43218really 4252317 3512 1011 119 205 454 reason 424presented 117 35161821 reopen 2824 retarded 313

3322 3441925 protection 1619 reopened 669 417 85 1118 395prevent 1515 proven 243 611 129 1413

reasonable 3201722 psychiatrist repeated 3821 271821 3411 125 1310prevented 4313 1922 required 815 388131620438previously 156 psychologists 391 441521

reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

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rise 719 1720 2111 statement 1218 1421 27104310 risk 371 435812 456 131215 414 Supreme 1112secondly 3919 ROBERTS 33 skills 51717 4216 4317 413 51 616 secure 3522

1911 2912 622 817 448111924 71124 1016 see 24516302 3611 sole 359 statements 286 1124 12132616 308 4210 457 Solicitor 115 States 1112 1331216seeing 402

role 2391024 somebody 276 148 2019 1421 151sell 1423 2623 sorry 610 3817 3420 3715 182124 207 sense 45 94

rule 43 2018 4116 4112 4220 2025 214144 1625 22131517 sort 1623 2920 States 3818 2319212524 2711 2817 3612 398 3918 403 2720 3416sentence 410 291020 329 4111 4215 439 372623924 1624 3219192021 SOUTER 811 statute 152 43161744 2117 322324 332 818 971216 statutory 1221 sure 3218 3913 2121 2320 33991017 201015 244 1224 3915254 2924 3319 34410 256121524 step 2312 surely 16243623 375143420 3125 3218 STEVENS Swenson 31740413 4320

rules 1516 166 332162024 1115 1818 41 272 3310 sentenced 62 1691215 343 3913 4323 441017 sword 118sentencer 49 3225 Souters 426 straight 422710 141 Truling 2914 specific 812 stretch 392222sentences 4025

T 2113313 1125 3921 strikes 3611sentencing take 521 1712 run 720 1521 specifically 519 submitted 458301625

1717 34131524 spoke 51919 4510separate 39 taken 173 2315 stage 3018 subsequent 63serious 281

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3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

71114 2417 told 71225 understanding Washington 18 X2423 409 920 1114 2623 wasnt 957

x 1274115 431 3814 unexhausted 1015 181418 technical 394 tomorrow 3217 171525 182 213 318 367 Ytechnically 297 tracking 4112 unique 226 401111 415

years 211tells 147 traditional 253 34135 421 yellow 4221ten 4211 3221 United 1112 way 179 2123

Tennard 721 treat 1134 3715 2223 235 0 terms 2712 treated 722 unreasonable 2539 324 08-598 15test 1819 1316 298 1011 1924 3525 testified 1219 trial 412 921 unsworn 1218 ways 2422 1

1813 104 1424 unusual 3224 4218 101 1811testifying 1921 1813 28912 urging 2116 weighed 2612 101a 59testimony 511 28121317 use 1425 1522 weighing 3415 104a 59 1811

1819 358 3020 311113 1611 2415 3424 1102 113 32 text 177 358 444 uses 2610 weight 1018 1154 459Thank 1911 true 219 usually 2421 1314 4319 143 381818

42910 457 try 1418 went 1110 153 3810Vtheory 2822 trying 2421 1225 202 16 4222 v 15 149 241 304911 264 2515 160 3822 4324 272 3310things 2918 turns 2423 were 1714 18 4222vaguely 2923713 4021 3210 2113 241722 19 26various 12204112 4218 two 6711 93 314 40922 1992 112vastly 3515think 7817 89 1224 159 4114 1996 112verdict 12289 92 1122 247111823 weve 324 345 version 161813122 143 251 264 White 241 2 versus 34171419 1519 2918 374 win 272310 2009 19

41 21112013 2110 40325 4218 winner 211719 2254(d)(1) 4314vigorously237 253 268 436 221 261025 2254(d)(2) 1919

10212711822 two-edged 118 Winter 5518 391112 434 violates 4181928101324 typical 224 1219 1921 4311violent 102529417 3014 204 357 27 19U virtually 369316 331822 Winters 1813 292904 1222

ultimate 2122352 36215 Winters 511W2125 222325 33619 39222 wishes 2415Wainwright2335 2410 427 won 2120 276 3 24 1225

1492614 273thinks 351622 277 3617waiving 1712 43525 361third 316 word 46 1522 want 521 1544 uncritically 42 29thought 111 words 98 1023

2822 291 23251325 1422 worked 918 5wants 152underlying 307three 39 5234 wouldnt 15223521 50 1819underscored36819 4414 308

warden 13115three-part 1414 writ 395 4314 6271525 3910 understand432 wrong 1322

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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preclusion analysis just doesnt apply here

MR BLUME Well that is not my reading of

the necessary cases I read that the function that the

necessary prong serves as trying to serve two goals

Number one was the issue the question the issue --

JUSTICE GINSBURG How do you say you

have -- you dont find that in the cases when you said

to me and I think frankly you were right that issue

preclusion -- and there are many many cases on issue

preclusion -- is something that a judgment winner uses

not a judgment loser and here the Ohio -- yes they

weighed and they found retardation but they also found

overwhelmed by the aggravating circumstances So the

ultimate determination of that of all the courts is

death

I dont see how you get to elevate an

intermediate determination -- there are many some go

for one party some go for the other -- to become the

outcome determinative factor The outcome determinative

factor is that the aggregators outweighed whatever

mitigators there were

MR BLUME Well I mean -- again that is

not my understanding of the role the necessary clause

plays

But now on to the winner point So if

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

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thats necessary -- I dont think theres anything in

Ashe v Swenson that says you have to win on the

ultimate outcome Its do you win on the fact If

thats right -- and lets imagine --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But Ashe is about

somebody who was acquitted He won There was no doubt

that he won

MR BLUME I understand

JUSTICE GINSBURG It didnt say anything

about well suppose he didnt win

MR BLUME But the Ashe rule is stated in

terms of when an issue of fact has been determined in a

defendants favor its binding in any subsequent

litigation

But if the Warden is right -- and lets

imagine now Mr Bies goes back for his mental

retardation hearing and the court says Yes Mr Bies

is mentally retarded on the other hand I think Atkins

was wrongly decided

It goes up on appeal to the Ohio Supreme

Court and they say Yes Mr Bies is mentally retarded

but we think Atkins was wrongly decided The case comes

to this Court and you summarily reverse and say Atkins

is still the law of the land

Now it goes back and the Warden could then

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

1323 145 227 345 aware 211825 Biess 322276 3021 41820 108 1415 am 113 32 1313 1624act 1722

Amendment-r 1913 31322 459 2319 2925acting 211 1318 3124 32111 358 4217actual 2519 BAmerican 618 382 421218 4318287

B 2417analysis 31016 4222 437 binding 2713adaptive 517 back 522 135261 3924 arguments 2915621 816

182 192announced 4215 Blume 117 25additional 378 271625 40222822 Ashe 31725 42 19121315adequate 195

balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

balancing 1461717 232020 1715 2217 2419 251114adjudicate 322 bar 84 37112720 296 272511 2523 26222administer 421

42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

30124110 aside 166 3011 31515admit 3721 bases 3910appeals 206 asked 3816 3123 321222adopt 4112 basis 1918 2022321 287 3999 33121822adopted 356

2110 35913372 asking 3317 3417 352adversarial 109 3623 394APPEARAN assert 308 36219 3724199

beginning 47114 assistance 179 38917 392adversary 101 behalf 11617appellate 920 Association 618 40817 417AEDPA 321

2469 36925 103519 assume 381 4116affirmance 123 1914 42131212 2310 assumed 304 Bobby 13 34affirmed 712

behoove 89Appendix 510 assuming 418 borderline 620affords 144 believe 37131020 1812 Atkin 201515 3614 4318aggravating

411738922 Atkins 31317 borne 198111320 124 bench 1424applicable 305 32023 422 bound 15591213 139 benefit 423305 523 63 710 bounding 1412613 3615

169application 41 82 11514 brand 3219422 BENJAMIN4024 1471116 3324 345aggravation

115 238 35applied 2816 1724 184 brand-new2312 374 42124310 1979 2011 331718aggravator 923

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Breyer 1415 categorical 84 452 conclusion 310 convict 1422 1518 28421 3711 4219 clearly 2238 910 2223 319 291 313616 categorically 427 2411 373 convicting 173 325 4019 client 3378 conclusions conviction 3821

Breyers 333 category 2220 clinical 8378 1924 3610 4111 brief 4011 centers 324 81214 1412 conclusive 64 correct 91115

4221 certain 719 1922 20488 218 416 1014 2012 briefs 101920 certainly 2022 2022 2113 condition 3617 3115 broad 2017 364 clinicians 618 conduct 2216 counsel 1911 brother 2516 challenge 4012 close 620 conflicting 515 4210 457 Bullington 47 4424 Code 1222 consensus 4118 course 2319 burden 3510 chance 322 collateral 316 consequences court 1112 38 burdens 3510 change 151415 42 1691114 1515 2216 31221 4713

changed 3713 1618 2810 consequential 414 51710C 4021 4218 301215 317 4219 616 71112

C 115 2138 characterizati 3120 consider 2517 724 1016 315 4212 249 2520 Columbus 115 considerations 115624 121

call 3616 charge 1214 combination 2424 1212 13312called 513 charged 1215 321222 considered 131619 1422

401523 1220 combined 2219 1825 15113 1610 capital 301625 Chief 337 299 Considering 181331121 care 251 3518 191115 2912 come 522 822 725 19116 2012 careful 87 2917 302 825 107 258 consistent 321 2067 2114 carefully 55 361120 4210 4423 181416 197 23192021

621 457 comes 923 336 246171720 carry 1512 Circuit 1311 2722 Constitution 2567 2717 case 31524 142 1720 coming 3218 3191219 272123 2811

4111223 2111 438 commits 311 3715 4120 2914 3022 524 620 819 456 committed constitutionali 3321 3416 82022 1219 Circuits 435 3523 83 1617 3620 3712614111921 4313 common 168 constitutionally 371923 3810 163101222 circumstances 2920 1612 197 3912 4024 1625 17619 231416 2413 compelling 391 411824 439 1721 18125 2613 422 3615 contained 52 4321 444 1822 1919 claim 323 1715 completely 77 contending 451 21418 231 171824 3711 conceded 3717 1714 courts 322 716 259 2722 3916 4099 3815 4122 contest 101 718 920 105 2824 291 40171818 conception 3657 371 113 1716223110 3358 41782223 2017 contesting 3625 2321 2614 342 35322 422 concerns 254 context 49 778 courts 319 52 366121417 claimed 386 concession 1410 1522 123 1824 4316 45189 claiming 1617 3821 391823 2245 3036 1920 221112

cases 1514 241 clarifying 4324 3925 4010 30161925 2219 3624 26379 2955 clause 311 176 4324 34141423 3712 4020 3015 322 2623 301013 concessions 379 428 4316 3621 376 3114 397 4216 continuing 101 crack 173

catch-all 131 clear 616 402 concluded 57 contrary 286 creates 2213

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credible 2915 3819 411 201620 2425 1522 162 1619 crime 351823 4325 4420 4415 1761822 entitles 3112 crimes 3024 defendants 43 determined 139 3091216 equivalent 296 criminal 225 defendants 1920 203 3113 3220 ESQ 11517 23

2919 3018 2713 2218 248 doubt 125 258 3314 defense 338 2712 1311 276 essence 2215

defined 48 developments Dr 551118 essential 2323 D defining 84 4117 1218 1812 essentially 295

D 31 definition 534 difference 799 1921 204 establishingdaily 518 61215 716 24616 3520 357 2910 3511 dangerousness 718 1922 different 614 drawn 202022 estoppel 316

1110 20481624 77 82 93 drugs 1423 43 1691214DAVID 13 2113 229 1521 258 due 1523 1656 1618 301215de 106 2922 3214 341419 3515 1611 3678 3825 3939deal 1015 3556 432 3613 373 DC 18 391516 426 dealing 216 definitional 407 4418 42152224

E3614 4220 difficulty 402 evaluated 369 dealt 1725 E 21 311 definitions 52 direct 10719 Everythingsdeath 45910 earlier 44 819 definitively 1021 1313 2812

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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say Well now that we know youre serious about

Atkins we want to reopen the judgment and we want

another shot --

JUSTICE BREYER Its not reopen -- its --

its the same problem And maybe you found some

authority to the contrary other than statements but

actual authority The defendant loses He appeals He

says they made a mistake And the normal remedy is you

give him a new trial Does it matter that its a

collateral proceeding I dont think so They go to

the Federal court Judge they made a mistake at my

trial You give him a new trial Everythings up for

grabs normally at the new trial I cant think of an

instance where it isnt

Here they are saying Judge they made a

mistake They should have applied the mental

retardation rule of Atkins So give him a new trial

Now what Im looking for is just one

example somewhere that supports you --

MR BLUME Well --

JUSTICE BREYER -- that didnt proceed on

the theory Ive just announced or just said

MR BLUME Well I -- I mean I cant give

you a case exactly like that but again I think the

procedure --

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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2525 2813 opinion 205 parties 3253457 424 1322 141 noted 4216 2111 108 11165710 725 posed 4413 novo 106 opinions 1923 party 89 2120 814 921115 position 189 number 74 247 opportunity 2618917 10514 2925 443

2411 252021 14910 passages 3917111622 1215 positions 403 265 354 oral 111 22 35 penalty 45921138 158 161 possess 155 3620 3734 1913 1117 2181714 181020 possessed 1425

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

311 510 183 4217 put 4025 27 4212 1512 165 18111525 primarily 392 put-in-jeopardy recites 4419 307 4214 191 37910 prior 102425 177 recognize 420 Respondent 3719 387 22716 248 recognized 118 26 1914

Q4012 439 2411 3023 3620 responding 425 question 5234415 451 364 record 423 56 response 244

1016 128posture 109 problem 721 51622 8810 2418 333 165 1812226 3424 152324 285 1046724 3716 3818 2221 245post-Atkins 58 4371115 1123 181423 412123265 30714613 78 816 problems 437 3022 371724 result 824 913 334 35252112 432 4312 381219 3916 2513 3121 365 393 421 449 procedural 224 4025 432525 retardation 420 4324 44812post-conviction 226 3424 4420 452 5420 61317 441357 procedure 2825 refer 815 619 71417

questions 186precedent 1721 3225 341220 reference 64 81 91922426 455precise 2518 342125 355 392021 101121722

quite 141617precisely 344 proceed 2821 referred 3918 11271125407preclude 349 proceeding 63 regard 408 1261123

precluded 222 153 201 regarded 411 137132124Rprecludes 323 2218 2318 regardless 2023 14317 1923 R 31preclusion 419 24812 252 relating 61213 205791618raise 3825 392 91 151011 2810 2916 15910 21771424

39121421171819 318 3216 relevance 1320 22791424raised 247 393 221 261910 387 444 relevant 1223 2322 2439

3982913 306 proceedings 1520 2612 2717raises 3710322101121 1815 relief 4366 2817 301 ran 3713311 3516 process 1523 relitigated 74 311 3214reach 989 372 3824 166611 199 remaining 4211 341316 355 reached 910preclusive 611 prong 264 remains 1812 3571119reaching 352576 9514 144 proof 3510 remarks 1125 36522 3712 read 1237151316 234 properly 327 remedy 288 3717182225

1318 263241414 321 prosecution remember 162 392024 401 3015 4143246 172 364 render 2921 419212325

reading 262preponderance prosecutor rendering 1923 424 43218really 4252317 3512 1011 119 205 454 reason 424presented 117 35161821 reopen 2824 retarded 313

3322 3441925 protection 1619 reopened 669 417 85 1118 395prevent 1515 proven 243 611 129 1413

reasonable 3201722 psychiatrist repeated 3821 271821 3411 125 1310prevented 4313 1922 required 815 388131620438previously 156 psychologists 391 441521

reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

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221315 2910 serve 264 stakes 407 2211 2713S 322425 serves 264 stand 328 2916 3223S 21 31

return 1616 set 425 standard 425 subsequentlysake 382 reveals 371824 severe 4321 2318 4310 3023 4119Sam 3110

3819 411 severity 720 stands 327 subsidiarysatisfied 255 4325 4420 shape 341225 starting 2019 241013 334 Sattazahn 48

reverse 2723 shot 1547 283 state 41921 3372922 4321 456 show 422 154 510 715 substantial 517saying 912

review 10719 4411 1111 148 successive 315241221 2815 1021 1313 shown 3812 152568 167 1623 17531617 328 1825 2310 shows 319 16814 172 suffers 514163423 3923 254 4317 Shuffling 3110 189 193420 suffice 57 88 4013 431 4415 significance 1925 2419 sufficient 2923says 419 511

reviewed 921 238 252 3215 3412 311 4422524 1322 reviewing 414 3313 415 351 361025 suggest 810221317 272

2319 significant 514 3791016 suggested 36132717 288 Revised 1222 similar 312021 386771015 summarily3711 3811 reweighing simple 1423 3824 4024 27234111

2311 simply 1112 412224 4225 Sunnen 1514second 315 154 right 418 1115 1424 155 44425 support 43515710 1723

268 27415 17823 stated 2711 supports 2819328 338 311416 377 Sixth 1311 142 4221 451 suppose 5233624 4220

rise 719 1720 2111 statement 1218 1421 27104310 risk 371 435812 456 131215 414 Supreme 1112secondly 3919 ROBERTS 33 skills 51717 4216 4317 413 51 616 secure 3522

1911 2912 622 817 448111924 71124 1016 see 24516302 3611 sole 359 statements 286 1124 12132616 308 4210 457 Solicitor 115 States 1112 1331216seeing 402

role 2391024 somebody 276 148 2019 1421 151sell 1423 2623 sorry 610 3817 3420 3715 182124 207 sense 45 94

rule 43 2018 4116 4112 4220 2025 214144 1625 22131517 sort 1623 2920 States 3818 2319212524 2711 2817 3612 398 3918 403 2720 3416sentence 410 291020 329 4111 4215 439 372623924 1624 3219192021 SOUTER 811 statute 152 43161744 2117 322324 332 818 971216 statutory 1221 sure 3218 3913 2121 2320 33991017 201015 244 1224 3915254 2924 3319 34410 256121524 step 2312 surely 16243623 375143420 3125 3218 STEVENS Swenson 31740413 4320

rules 1516 166 332162024 1115 1818 41 272 3310 sentenced 62 1691215 343 3913 4323 441017 sword 118sentencer 49 3225 Souters 426 straight 422710 141 Truling 2914 specific 812 stretch 392222sentences 4025

T 2113313 1125 3921 strikes 3611sentencing take 521 1712 run 720 1521 specifically 519 submitted 458301625

1717 34131524 spoke 51919 4510separate 39 taken 173 2315 stage 3018 subsequent 63serious 281

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3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

71114 2417 told 71225 understanding Washington 18 X2423 409 920 1114 2623 wasnt 957

x 1274115 431 3814 unexhausted 1015 181418 technical 394 tomorrow 3217 171525 182 213 318 367 Ytechnically 297 tracking 4112 unique 226 401111 415

years 211tells 147 traditional 253 34135 421 yellow 4221ten 4211 3221 United 1112 way 179 2123

Tennard 721 treat 1134 3715 2223 235 0 terms 2712 treated 722 unreasonable 2539 324 08-598 15test 1819 1316 298 1011 1924 3525 testified 1219 trial 412 921 unsworn 1218 ways 2422 1

1813 104 1424 unusual 3224 4218 101 1811testifying 1921 1813 28912 urging 2116 weighed 2612 101a 59testimony 511 28121317 use 1425 1522 weighing 3415 104a 59 1811

1819 358 3020 311113 1611 2415 3424 1102 113 32 text 177 358 444 uses 2610 weight 1018 1154 459Thank 1911 true 219 usually 2421 1314 4319 143 381818

42910 457 try 1418 went 1110 153 3810Vtheory 2822 trying 2421 1225 202 16 4222 v 15 149 241 304911 264 2515 160 3822 4324 272 3310things 2918 turns 2423 were 1714 18 4222vaguely 2923713 4021 3210 2113 241722 19 26various 12204112 4218 two 6711 93 314 40922 1992 112vastly 3515think 7817 89 1224 159 4114 1996 112verdict 12289 92 1122 247111823 weve 324 345 version 161813122 143 251 264 White 241 2 versus 34171419 1519 2918 374 win 272310 2009 19

41 21112013 2110 40325 4218 winner 211719 2254(d)(1) 4314vigorously237 253 268 436 221 261025 2254(d)(2) 1919

10212711822 two-edged 118 Winter 5518 391112 434 violates 4181928101324 typical 224 1219 1921 4311violent 102529417 3014 204 357 27 19U virtually 369316 331822 Winters 1813 292904 1222

ultimate 2122352 36215 Winters 511W2125 222325 33619 39222 wishes 2415Wainwright2335 2410 427 won 2120 276 3 24 1225

1492614 273thinks 351622 277 3617waiving 1712 43525 361third 316 word 46 1522 want 521 1544 uncritically 42 29thought 111 words 98 1023

2822 291 23251325 1422 worked 918 5wants 152underlying 307three 39 5234 wouldnt 15223521 50 1819underscored36819 4414 308

warden 13115three-part 1414 writ 395 4314 6271525 3910 understand432 wrong 1322

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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JUSTICE BREYER No I want a case even

vaguely like that

(Laughter)

MR BLUME I think what you have are the

cases -- you had the cases which essentially are the

legal equivalent of insufficient evidence on appeal

Now thats not technically an acquittal but its

treated as an acquittal But what you have here is a

finding of fact combined with a later decision on the --

establishing a retroactive new rule moving people

outside --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS How far -- how far

down do you go on applying the issue preclusion Lets

say theres a ruling by the court that a particular

expert was not credible I mean is that binding in a

subsequent proceeding

MR BLUME No Mr Chief Justice I think

it would have to do one of two things It would either

have to absolve the criminal defendant of liability

which is sort of the common rule under Ashe or it would

have to render him ineligible for the death penalty

though the definition of acquittal used in Sattazahn is

had there been a finding which -- legally sufficient to

legally entitle the defendant to a life sentence And

it is Mr Biess position that the finding of mental

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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retardation --

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well thats

narrowing it to your particular context I would have

assumed that the theory has to be more generally

applicable and not just applicable in the particular

Atkins context If you can have issue preclusion with

respect to an underlying factual question under which

the loser can assert that I dont see why it wouldnt

apply more generally Thats a theory of the Double

Jeopardy Clause not of Atkins

MR BLUME Well its a theory of

collateral estoppel which is based in the Double

Jeopardy Clause which is what -- the issue on which the

panel resolved this question And I think that -- as I

read the collateral estoppel cases again and even in

the context of capital sentencing and double jeopardy

the finding would have to be either at the -- at the

criminal liability stage would it absolve the defendant

of liability like in the Ashe context The finding was

one of identity In the first trial the jury

acquitted The only issue was identity When this

court looked at the record as a whole -- and then they

said okay you cant subsequently litigate the prior --

the nuts crimes on the issue of identity In the

capital sentencing context at least here a finding of

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

1323 145 227 345 aware 211825 Biess 322276 3021 41820 108 1415 am 113 32 1313 1624act 1722

Amendment-r 1913 31322 459 2319 2925acting 211 1318 3124 32111 358 4217actual 2519 BAmerican 618 382 421218 4318287

B 2417analysis 31016 4222 437 binding 2713adaptive 517 back 522 135261 3924 arguments 2915621 816

182 192announced 4215 Blume 117 25additional 378 271625 40222822 Ashe 31725 42 19121315adequate 195

balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

balancing 1461717 232020 1715 2217 2419 251114adjudicate 322 bar 84 37112720 296 272511 2523 26222administer 421

42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

30124110 aside 166 3011 31515admit 3721 bases 3910appeals 206 asked 3816 3123 321222adopt 4112 basis 1918 2022321 287 3999 33121822adopted 356

2110 35913372 asking 3317 3417 352adversarial 109 3623 394APPEARAN assert 308 36219 3724199

beginning 47114 assistance 179 38917 392adversary 101 behalf 11617appellate 920 Association 618 40817 417AEDPA 321

2469 36925 103519 assume 381 4116affirmance 123 1914 42131212 2310 assumed 304 Bobby 13 34affirmed 712

behoove 89Appendix 510 assuming 418 borderline 620affords 144 believe 37131020 1812 Atkin 201515 3614 4318aggravating

411738922 Atkins 31317 borne 198111320 124 bench 1424applicable 305 32023 422 bound 15591213 139 benefit 423305 523 63 710 bounding 1412613 3615

169application 41 82 11514 brand 3219422 BENJAMIN4024 1471116 3324 345aggravation

115 238 35applied 2816 1724 184 brand-new2312 374 42124310 1979 2011 331718aggravator 923

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Breyer 1415 categorical 84 452 conclusion 310 convict 1422 1518 28421 3711 4219 clearly 2238 910 2223 319 291 313616 categorically 427 2411 373 convicting 173 325 4019 client 3378 conclusions conviction 3821

Breyers 333 category 2220 clinical 8378 1924 3610 4111 brief 4011 centers 324 81214 1412 conclusive 64 correct 91115

4221 certain 719 1922 20488 218 416 1014 2012 briefs 101920 certainly 2022 2022 2113 condition 3617 3115 broad 2017 364 clinicians 618 conduct 2216 counsel 1911 brother 2516 challenge 4012 close 620 conflicting 515 4210 457 Bullington 47 4424 Code 1222 consensus 4118 course 2319 burden 3510 chance 322 collateral 316 consequences court 1112 38 burdens 3510 change 151415 42 1691114 1515 2216 31221 4713

changed 3713 1618 2810 consequential 414 51710C 4021 4218 301215 317 4219 616 71112

C 115 2138 characterizati 3120 consider 2517 724 1016 315 4212 249 2520 Columbus 115 considerations 115624 121

call 3616 charge 1214 combination 2424 1212 13312called 513 charged 1215 321222 considered 131619 1422

401523 1220 combined 2219 1825 15113 1610 capital 301625 Chief 337 299 Considering 181331121 care 251 3518 191115 2912 come 522 822 725 19116 2012 careful 87 2917 302 825 107 258 consistent 321 2067 2114 carefully 55 361120 4210 4423 181416 197 23192021

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cases 1514 241 clarifying 4324 3925 4010 30161925 2219 3624 26379 2955 clause 311 176 4324 34141423 3712 4020 3015 322 2623 301013 concessions 379 428 4316 3621 376 3114 397 4216 continuing 101 crack 173

catch-all 131 clear 616 402 concluded 57 contrary 286 creates 2213

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credible 2915 3819 411 201620 2425 1522 162 1619 crime 351823 4325 4420 4415 1761822 entitles 3112 crimes 3024 defendants 43 determined 139 3091216 equivalent 296 criminal 225 defendants 1920 203 3113 3220 ESQ 11517 23

2919 3018 2713 2218 248 doubt 125 258 3314 defense 338 2712 1311 276 essence 2215

defined 48 developments Dr 551118 essential 2323 D defining 84 4117 1218 1812 essentially 295

D 31 definition 534 difference 799 1921 204 establishingdaily 518 61215 716 24616 3520 357 2910 3511 dangerousness 718 1922 different 614 drawn 202022 estoppel 316

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decided 318 2413 29182323 dismissed 396 3517 368211919 2511 3017 3314describes 239 dispositive 820 3625 4410 271922 3422 elements 535describing 325 824 913 452 3513 3911 3413 4414designed 2424 3925 exactly 2020

decision 319 453determination disproportion 259 2824 52 1117 elevate 261658 8222325 375 example 242 1822 191921 embraced 411999 124 1924 disproportion 2819 21412 2212 embracing2122 2336 3714 excerpts 1020 221219 299 2113261417 3213 dispute 324 excluded 718 3624 3713 enacting 42193223 3357 disregarded excuse 418 4020 engage 23113539 439 438 execute 3410

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17111113 fair 1116 353 fought 2120 going 1420 153 I existence 128 fairest 1123 found 111417 1518 3411 identical 36310exists 102 2124 far 522 1917 1221 136 3518 identification

2318 4118 247 291212 144 2225 grabs 2813 2313 expansive 167 favor 2713 2322 2577 grant 818 395 identify 2316

1614 Federal 164 261212 285 436 323 expert 1412 172125 181 3424 3723 granted 396 identity 3020

2915 2811 318 4124 granting 4314 302124experts 512 filed 4110 frankly 268 great 1015 ignores 4218

191 368 final 2218 function 2324 grounds 3911 illuminate 132 4414 find 524 1012 263 guidepost 1319 imagine 27416

explains 1315 267 further 186 131923 implement exposure 1722 finding 49 64 443 455 gun 14212325 1411 express 242 625 812 921 future 1110 1512 implementingexpressly 349 1211 1424 51G Hextending 48 1512 1824 important 162

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617 717 913 918 1010 hear 33371922 383 inaccurate101822 1413 1210 135 hearing 3122038511 3919 4411203 2410 2025 2136 422 512 185 4010 incentive 10152522 27312 2115 2221 199 2717findings 516 351424 365 299 334714 237 266 275 heinous 61234 3789 incentives 3633511 366 279 348 held 181 3320 3811 36712372022 383 3514 36313 3321fine 1720 includes 515163851111 3721 38414 helps 132first 31422 including 5113910 4122 4041422 highlighted 79615 1216 inconsistency

factor 62 715 4114 4216 hinge 4413135 1411 40211192021 Ginsburgs 245 history 1025159 1725 incorporate1225 13117 give 321 238 Hoag 1610185 2312 1611261920 348 289121723 hold 312 184 2419 257 independent3515 3616 3118 435 holds 151 1721 3020 3117 194 2311416 given 71 148 Honor 425 67 32236710 independently

factors 319 141012 253 76 815 9215 335 3918 310 920111320 124 go 319 1123 1014 11224214 437 individual 24312562124 135 1519 1216 138focused 1917 ineligible 2921131025 3615 182 261718 161 1714followed 3919 3315 401920

facts 1925 2810 2913 1810 196Ford 149 inquiries 824420 3521 3923 44725form 1918 insanity 149

factual 307 goals 264 hope 1613formed 2110 insofar 44193223 4424 goes 192 2716 hung 1311forming 1923 instance 257

fails 4222 272025 3710 hypotheticalforth 425 2814failure 366 4111 821 325forward 320 instructs 142

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insufficient 296 1416 1918 1115 1210 laws 4113 3917 intellectual 514 Ithaca 117 135 141519 lead 310 3121 making 83 intend 4423 ie 73 1518 1710 leave 3411 manner 2415 intends 445 18818 193 left 1613 2019 marked 1320

Jintent 4418 191115 2010 legal 1515 marking 1318 JA 1820 3817 interlocutory 201525 213 2216 296 1323

38181717 21615 2221 3313 431215 matter 111 289 Jackson 317intermediate 237 2445 legally 292324 3523 40513jeopardy 39112122 2222 256121524 lets 1418 274 412 442

315 15111723420 2617 266 2759 2715 2913 4510 15192022interpret 1116 28421 291 level 7420 921 matters 2420 16323 176 interpretations 291217 302 925 258 mean 423 812 17182324168 31361625 liability 2919 820 2212 30101316interpreted 32518 3323 301819 3315 2323 2420 3113 32203119 33162024 life 518 2223 2515 2622

JOHN 117 25 interrupt 1115 3438 3514 2924 4320 2823 2915 1913introduced 362111320 light 525 1925 32224 3914

Joint 1019 389 121718 1815 3721 38414 414 meaning 325 3822182124 3823 3913 limitation 817 meanings 93

judge 412 103 IQ 515151925 4041422 limitations 514 means 420 914 103 12131564161920 4114 42610 517 3313 281115 318 625 74 813 4216 4323 line 620 2020 meant 206

judgment 8378161923 441017 457 2021 mental 420 54 88121418912 195 lines 39 520 61217

K1412 211925258 38113 litigate 1016 618 71416221 261011 Kennedy 5213820 3921 3023 3524 81 91922282 322347 66923 73 412 441614 litigated 1418 101217223279 336 1419 18844141621 litigation 2019 11261125361 3819 1934523 2714 126112325

judicial 3825 Kennedys 821issue 317 419 look 621 354 1361321243931516 kind 15237367 95 4111 14317 1923 426152224 251825141718 159 looked 3022 20478 2113

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

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mental retardation is a finding sufficient to entitle

the defendant --

JUSTICE BREYER Your argument then --

were getting somewhere maybe

MR BLUME Pardon me

JUSTICE BREYER Youre saying to me think

of Jackson and Denno If youre in a collateral

proceeding and the Federal judge said there wasnt

enough evidence to convict him under the Constitution

like the Shuffling Sam case there isnt enough

evidence it isnt that he gets a new trial The

Constitution entitles him to acquittal and therefore

there is no new trial because of the Double Jeopardy

Clause right

MR BLUME Thats correct

JUSTICE BREYER All right So youre

saying here the evidence the first time was such that

they couldnt give him the death penalty under the

Constitution as later interpreted So if thats what

you discover on the collateral appeal a similar

reasoning would somehow lead you to the similar result

Is that the argument

MR BLUME Thats more or less the

argument And the panel --

JUSTICE SOUTER But if that is the

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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argument then what is being preclusive here is not the

first judgment I mean in preclusion cases its the

first judgment that precludes and we identify a

judgment which is preclusive in the way weve been

describing But in the hypothetical that Justice Breyer

gave you theres nothing preclusive about the first

judgment because the first judgment stands and properly

can stand And youre saying there cant be a second

judgment but you are not depending upon a rule of

preclusion that turns on the first So whatever your

argument is its not -- its not issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

the determination that Mr Bies is a person with mental

retardation using the same definition according to the

panel which is now in effect in the State of Ohio

which would apply in a Lott proceeding if he were to

have it tomorrow

JUSTICE SOUTER Sure but youre coming up

with a brand new rule Whatever your rule is its not

a rule of double jeopardy and its not -- its not the

traditional rule of issue preclusion

MR BLUME Well it is the combination of

that factual determination with the subsequent rule a

retroactive new rule I mean its unusual because

there are very few retroactive new rules of procedure

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

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Amendment-r 1913 31322 459 2319 2925acting 211 1318 3124 32111 358 4217actual 2519 BAmerican 618 382 421218 4318287

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182 192announced 4215 Blume 117 25additional 378 271625 40222822 Ashe 31725 42 19121315adequate 195

balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

balancing 1461717 232020 1715 2217 2419 251114adjudicate 322 bar 84 37112720 296 272511 2523 26222administer 421

42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

30124110 aside 166 3011 31515admit 3721 bases 3910appeals 206 asked 3816 3123 321222adopt 4112 basis 1918 2022321 287 3999 33121822adopted 356

2110 35913372 asking 3317 3417 352adversarial 109 3623 394APPEARAN assert 308 36219 3724199

beginning 47114 assistance 179 38917 392adversary 101 behalf 11617appellate 920 Association 618 40817 417AEDPA 321

2469 36925 103519 assume 381 4116affirmance 123 1914 42131212 2310 assumed 304 Bobby 13 34affirmed 712

behoove 89Appendix 510 assuming 418 borderline 620affords 144 believe 37131020 1812 Atkin 201515 3614 4318aggravating

411738922 Atkins 31317 borne 198111320 124 bench 1424applicable 305 32023 422 bound 15591213 139 benefit 423305 523 63 710 bounding 1412613 3615

169application 41 82 11514 brand 3219422 BENJAMIN4024 1471116 3324 345aggravation

115 238 35applied 2816 1724 184 brand-new2312 374 42124310 1979 2011 331718aggravator 923

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Breyers 333 category 2220 clinical 8378 1924 3610 4111 brief 4011 centers 324 81214 1412 conclusive 64 correct 91115

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catch-all 131 clear 616 402 concluded 57 contrary 286 creates 2213

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credible 2915 3819 411 201620 2425 1522 162 1619 crime 351823 4325 4420 4415 1761822 entitles 3112 crimes 3024 defendants 43 determined 139 3091216 equivalent 296 criminal 225 defendants 1920 203 3113 3220 ESQ 11517 23

2919 3018 2713 2218 248 doubt 125 258 3314 defense 338 2712 1311 276 essence 2215

defined 48 developments Dr 551118 essential 2323 D defining 84 4117 1218 1812 essentially 295

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decision 319 453determination disproportion 259 2824 52 1117 elevate 261658 8222325 375 example 242 1822 191921 embraced 411999 124 1924 disproportion 2819 21412 2212 embracing2122 2336 3714 excerpts 1020 221219 299 2113261417 3213 dispute 324 excluded 718 3624 3713 enacting 42193223 3357 disregarded excuse 418 4020 engage 23113539 439 438 execute 3410

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factor 62 715 4114 4216 hinge 4413135 1411 40211192021 Ginsburgs 245 history 1025159 1725 incorporate1225 13117 give 321 238 Hoag 1610185 2312 1611261920 348 289121723 hold 312 184 2419 257 independent3515 3616 3118 435 holds 151 1721 3020 3117 194 2311416 given 71 148 Honor 425 67 32236710 independently

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facts 1925 2810 2913 1810 196Ford 149 inquiries 824420 3521 3923 44725form 1918 insanity 149

factual 307 goals 264 hope 1613formed 2110 insofar 44193223 4424 goes 192 2716 hung 1311forming 1923 instance 257

fails 4222 272025 3710 hypotheticalforth 425 2814failure 366 4111 821 325forward 320 instructs 142

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insufficient 296 1416 1918 1115 1210 laws 4113 3917 intellectual 514 Ithaca 117 135 141519 lead 310 3121 making 83 intend 4423 ie 73 1518 1710 leave 3411 manner 2415 intends 445 18818 193 left 1613 2019 marked 1320

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38181717 21615 2221 3313 431215 matter 111 289 Jackson 317intermediate 237 2445 legally 292324 3523 40513jeopardy 39112122 2222 256121524 lets 1418 274 412 442

315 15111723420 2617 266 2759 2715 2913 4510 15192022interpret 1116 28421 291 level 7420 921 matters 2420 16323 176 interpretations 291217 302 925 258 mean 423 812 17182324168 31361625 liability 2919 820 2212 30101316interpreted 32518 3323 301819 3315 2323 2420 3113 32203119 33162024 life 518 2223 2515 2622

JOHN 117 25 interrupt 1115 3438 3514 2924 4320 2823 2915 1913introduced 362111320 light 525 1925 32224 3914

Joint 1019 389 121718 1815 3721 38414 414 meaning 325 3822182124 3823 3913 limitation 817 meanings 93

judge 412 103 IQ 515151925 4041422 limitations 514 means 420 914 103 12131564161920 4114 42610 517 3313 281115 318 625 74 813 4216 4323 line 620 2020 meant 206

judgment 8378161923 441017 457 2021 mental 420 54 88121418912 195 lines 39 520 61217

K1412 211925258 38113 litigate 1016 618 71416221 261011 Kennedy 5213820 3921 3023 3524 81 91922282 322347 66923 73 412 441614 litigated 1418 101217223279 336 1419 18844141621 litigation 2019 11261125361 3819 1934523 2714 126112325

judicial 3825 Kennedys 821issue 317 419 look 621 354 1361321243931516 kind 15237367 95 4111 14317 1923 426152224 251825141718 159 looked 3022 20478 2113

jurors 118 kinds 42231511 162425 looking 103 2124 2279jury 411 524 know 716 136 1714 1822 2818 2214 2322

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405513 412 81821 9712 maintain 1723issued 1822 417 84 1118 44291618 1010 maintainedissues 614 129 1413

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271821 3411 196 421112 3716 order 513 196 2225 2522 388121520 4214 4323 nuts 3024 2521 3810 2921 3118 411 44521 4471225 NY 117 originally 1422 3521 4019

merited 1017 Monday 19 ought 202021 Penry 71013Omerits 1314 motion 3818 outcome 2619 72125 116

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2418mild 392023 multiple 3979 2911 331 people 1422 obligation 1944318 outweigh 124 221420 2910

N occurred 1910mildly 381219 232 419 N 211 31 offense 61 95 411 44121 outweighed perceive 119 narrowing 303 offer 178 4410 minimizes 238 111320 1310 perfectly 1814 narrowly 4413 oh 3423mini-verdict 2620 permissiblenature 61 3518 Ohio 116 311 127 131724 overcome 923 1717 necessarily 318 31922 413 minutes 4211 overwhelmed person 3213

1519 2011 516 616 711 mistake 28811 1213 2613 371218252420 71515242816 3417 383 406 412

necessary 8621 1016 111124mitigating 61 overwhelming 4124 445 824 93457 121321227152325 3517 persons 4120 99 242223 13312161024 111920 persuasive

P2424 251317 148 171612561621 1023 11342521 2634 183102124 P 311224 131720 1112 2623 271 206625 213 page 22 3822 231316 3417 pertaining 452

necessity 2525 2112 221012 4015 43243616 382 Petition 59 need 621 231921 254 pages 59 1811 mitigation 77 1812 needed 518 256 2611 42221018 117 Petitioner 14 needs 512 182 2720 3215 panel 1919201220 1314 116 249 36

181625 349141521 229 30142223 2312 4213 never 45 518 3423 355 3124 3215374 3924 place 331

3320 345 3625 37125 3534 3910 4011 4319 placing 2219 4310 371423 4120 panels 1918mitigator 417 4219

new 1066 43316 444 Pardon 21291922 102 plays 2624 22131516 Ohios 4418 3151013 12112 please 38 1915 289121317 okay 818 916 part 1823 2422 137 21724 point 2022 2910 311113 3023 3623233425 3520 2110 2419 32192425 operated 2017 particular 4113723 2625 4224 3325 345 operates 43 98 2914 303 mitigators 1214 448 41131718 operating 2119 305 409 428 1310 232 pointed 2516

normal 288 operation 1516 particularly2621 341524 points 4217 normally 224 3419 619Mizer 115 238 Poland 13215

2525 2813 opinion 205 parties 3253457 424 1322 141 noted 4216 2111 108 11165710 725 posed 4413 novo 106 opinions 1923 party 89 2120 814 921115 position 189 number 74 247 opportunity 2618917 10514 2925 443

2411 252021 14910 passages 3917111622 1215 positions 403 265 354 oral 111 22 35 penalty 45921138 158 161 possess 155 3620 3734 1913 1117 2181714 181020 possessed 1425

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

311 510 183 4217 put 4025 27 4212 1512 165 18111525 primarily 392 put-in-jeopardy recites 4419 307 4214 191 37910 prior 102425 177 recognize 420 Respondent 3719 387 22716 248 recognized 118 26 1914

Q4012 439 2411 3023 3620 responding 425 question 5234415 451 364 record 423 56 response 244

1016 128posture 109 problem 721 51622 8810 2418 333 165 1812226 3424 152324 285 1046724 3716 3818 2221 245post-Atkins 58 4371115 1123 181423 412123265 30714613 78 816 problems 437 3022 371724 result 824 913 334 35252112 432 4312 381219 3916 2513 3121 365 393 421 449 procedural 224 4025 432525 retardation 420 4324 44812post-conviction 226 3424 4420 452 5420 61317 441357 procedure 2825 refer 815 619 71417

questions 186precedent 1721 3225 341220 reference 64 81 91922426 455precise 2518 342125 355 392021 101121722

quite 141617precisely 344 proceed 2821 referred 3918 11271125407preclude 349 proceeding 63 regard 408 1261123

precluded 222 153 201 regarded 411 137132124Rprecludes 323 2218 2318 regardless 2023 14317 1923 R 31preclusion 419 24812 252 relating 61213 205791618raise 3825 392 91 151011 2810 2916 15910 21771424

39121421171819 318 3216 relevance 1320 22791424raised 247 393 221 261910 387 444 relevant 1223 2322 2439

3982913 306 proceedings 1520 2612 2717raises 3710322101121 1815 relief 4366 2817 301 ran 3713311 3516 process 1523 relitigated 74 311 3214reach 989 372 3824 166611 199 remaining 4211 341316 355 reached 910preclusive 611 prong 264 remains 1812 3571119reaching 352576 9514 144 proof 3510 remarks 1125 36522 3712 read 1237151316 234 properly 327 remedy 288 3717182225

1318 263241414 321 prosecution remember 162 392024 401 3015 4143246 172 364 render 2921 419212325

reading 262preponderance prosecutor rendering 1923 424 43218really 4252317 3512 1011 119 205 454 reason 424presented 117 35161821 reopen 2824 retarded 313

3322 3441925 protection 1619 reopened 669 417 85 1118 395prevent 1515 proven 243 611 129 1413

reasonable 3201722 psychiatrist repeated 3821 271821 3411 125 1310prevented 4313 1922 required 815 388131620438previously 156 psychologists 391 441521

reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

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221315 2910 serve 264 stakes 407 2211 2713S 322425 serves 264 stand 328 2916 3223S 21 31

return 1616 set 425 standard 425 subsequentlysake 382 reveals 371824 severe 4321 2318 4310 3023 4119Sam 3110

3819 411 severity 720 stands 327 subsidiarysatisfied 255 4325 4420 shape 341225 starting 2019 241013 334 Sattazahn 48

reverse 2723 shot 1547 283 state 41921 3372922 4321 456 show 422 154 510 715 substantial 517saying 912

review 10719 4411 1111 148 successive 315241221 2815 1021 1313 shown 3812 152568 167 1623 17531617 328 1825 2310 shows 319 16814 172 suffers 514163423 3923 254 4317 Shuffling 3110 189 193420 suffice 57 88 4013 431 4415 significance 1925 2419 sufficient 2923says 419 511

reviewed 921 238 252 3215 3412 311 4422524 1322 reviewing 414 3313 415 351 361025 suggest 810221317 272

2319 significant 514 3791016 suggested 36132717 288 Revised 1222 similar 312021 386771015 summarily3711 3811 reweighing simple 1423 3824 4024 27234111

2311 simply 1112 412224 4225 Sunnen 1514second 315 154 right 418 1115 1424 155 44425 support 43515710 1723

268 27415 17823 stated 2711 supports 2819328 338 311416 377 Sixth 1311 142 4221 451 suppose 5233624 4220

rise 719 1720 2111 statement 1218 1421 27104310 risk 371 435812 456 131215 414 Supreme 1112secondly 3919 ROBERTS 33 skills 51717 4216 4317 413 51 616 secure 3522

1911 2912 622 817 448111924 71124 1016 see 24516302 3611 sole 359 statements 286 1124 12132616 308 4210 457 Solicitor 115 States 1112 1331216seeing 402

role 2391024 somebody 276 148 2019 1421 151sell 1423 2623 sorry 610 3817 3420 3715 182124 207 sense 45 94

rule 43 2018 4116 4112 4220 2025 214144 1625 22131517 sort 1623 2920 States 3818 2319212524 2711 2817 3612 398 3918 403 2720 3416sentence 410 291020 329 4111 4215 439 372623924 1624 3219192021 SOUTER 811 statute 152 43161744 2117 322324 332 818 971216 statutory 1221 sure 3218 3913 2121 2320 33991017 201015 244 1224 3915254 2924 3319 34410 256121524 step 2312 surely 16243623 375143420 3125 3218 STEVENS Swenson 31740413 4320

rules 1516 166 332162024 1115 1818 41 272 3310 sentenced 62 1691215 343 3913 4323 441017 sword 118sentencer 49 3225 Souters 426 straight 422710 141 Truling 2914 specific 812 stretch 392222sentences 4025

T 2113313 1125 3921 strikes 3611sentencing take 521 1712 run 720 1521 specifically 519 submitted 458301625

1717 34131524 spoke 51919 4510separate 39 taken 173 2315 stage 3018 subsequent 63serious 281

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3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

71114 2417 told 71225 understanding Washington 18 X2423 409 920 1114 2623 wasnt 957

x 1274115 431 3814 unexhausted 1015 181418 technical 394 tomorrow 3217 171525 182 213 318 367 Ytechnically 297 tracking 4112 unique 226 401111 415

years 211tells 147 traditional 253 34135 421 yellow 4221ten 4211 3221 United 1112 way 179 2123

Tennard 721 treat 1134 3715 2223 235 0 terms 2712 treated 722 unreasonable 2539 324 08-598 15test 1819 1316 298 1011 1924 3525 testified 1219 trial 412 921 unsworn 1218 ways 2422 1

1813 104 1424 unusual 3224 4218 101 1811testifying 1921 1813 28912 urging 2116 weighed 2612 101a 59testimony 511 28121317 use 1425 1522 weighing 3415 104a 59 1811

1819 358 3020 311113 1611 2415 3424 1102 113 32 text 177 358 444 uses 2610 weight 1018 1154 459Thank 1911 true 219 usually 2421 1314 4319 143 381818

42910 457 try 1418 went 1110 153 3810Vtheory 2822 trying 2421 1225 202 16 4222 v 15 149 241 304911 264 2515 160 3822 4324 272 3310things 2918 turns 2423 were 1714 18 4222vaguely 2923713 4021 3210 2113 241722 19 26various 12204112 4218 two 6711 93 314 40922 1992 112vastly 3515think 7817 89 1224 159 4114 1996 112verdict 12289 92 1122 247111823 weve 324 345 version 161813122 143 251 264 White 241 2 versus 34171419 1519 2918 374 win 272310 2009 19

41 21112013 2110 40325 4218 winner 211719 2254(d)(1) 4314vigorously237 253 268 436 221 261025 2254(d)(2) 1919

10212711822 two-edged 118 Winter 5518 391112 434 violates 4181928101324 typical 224 1219 1921 4311violent 102529417 3014 204 357 27 19U virtually 369316 331822 Winters 1813 292904 1222

ultimate 2122352 36215 Winters 511W2125 222325 33619 39222 wishes 2415Wainwright2335 2410 427 won 2120 276 3 24 1225

1492614 273thinks 351622 277 3617waiving 1712 43525 361third 316 word 46 1522 want 521 1544 uncritically 42 29thought 111 words 98 1023

2822 291 23251325 1422 worked 918 5wants 152underlying 307three 39 5234 wouldnt 15223521 50 1819underscored36819 4414 308

warden 13115three-part 1414 writ 395 4314 6271525 3910 understand432 wrong 1322

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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which place someone outside --

JUSTICE SOUTER No but what your rule is

as I understand it in your response to Justice Breyers

question is if there was a subsidiary fact

determination in the first case even though it was

entirely consistent with the judgment against your

client thats subsidiary fact determination can be used

as a defense by your client in the second case Thats

your rule as I understand it and that is not the rule

of Ashe v Swenson and it is not the rule of issue

preclusion

MR BLUME It could be used if there is a

later legal ruling which means the significance of that

fact would either absolve the criminal defendant of

liability or make him ineligible for death

JUSTICE SOUTER Well you -- do you agree

with me that youre asking for a brand-new rule here

MR BLUME I dont think it is a brand-new

rule

JUSTICE SOUTER We have never held this

and I dont know of any court thats ever held this

MR BLUME But I think the reason you

havent isnt --

JUSTICE SOUTER Well why isnt it brand

new

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

aggregators 4225 34222225 414 513absolve 2919 2620 applying 2913 3642124 1020 128173018 3314

agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

ALITO 1710 152 442522 attaches 2216 3725 383829822 3112 3823 argued 1111 attention 3616 398 412443162022

allowed 722 argues 43414 401523 4217 43414acquitted 45 Amendment argument 112 authority 2867 43171620 225

1323 145 227 345 aware 211825 Biess 322276 3021 41820 108 1415 am 113 32 1313 1624act 1722

Amendment-r 1913 31322 459 2319 2925acting 211 1318 3124 32111 358 4217actual 2519 BAmerican 618 382 421218 4318287

B 2417analysis 31016 4222 437 binding 2713adaptive 517 back 522 135261 3924 arguments 2915621 816

182 192announced 4215 Blume 117 25additional 378 271625 40222822 Ashe 31725 42 19121315adequate 195

balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

balancing 1461717 232020 1715 2217 2419 251114adjudicate 322 bar 84 37112720 296 272511 2523 26222administer 421

42203120 3624 2920 3019 27811 2820admission 384 based 207378 3821 3310 2823 29417386

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

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MR BLUME Its because of the unique

procedural posture of this case

JUSTICE SOUTER Well maybe the unique

procedural posture is precisely the reason that the rule

is brand new If its unique weve never had it

before

MR BLUME But --

JUSTICE GINSBURG We have the factor that

you would preclude Ohio from doing when we expressly

said that here is the rule You cant execute the

mentally retarded However we are going to leave it to

the State to shape the procedure and what are the

elements of retardation You would take all that away

from Ohio because in a different context the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators the Ohio

Supreme Court said there was retardation it is

mitigating however it was overwhelmed by the

aggravators

Its an entirely different operation than

States heres the rule the procedure for doing it is

up to you Ohio didnt have a procedure for doing

Atkins It couldnt until Atkins was decided And now

youre saying oh Ohio because you in the context of

weighing mitigators against aggravators found this

mitigator you cannot shape the Atkins procedure as

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

311 510 183 4217 put 4025 27 4212 1512 165 18111525 primarily 392 put-in-jeopardy recites 4419 307 4214 191 37910 prior 102425 177 recognize 420 Respondent 3719 387 22716 248 recognized 118 26 1914

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reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

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rule 43 2018 4116 4112 4220 2025 214144 1625 22131517 sort 1623 2920 States 3818 2319212524 2711 2817 3612 398 3918 403 2720 3416sentence 410 291020 329 4111 4215 439 372623924 1624 3219192021 SOUTER 811 statute 152 43161744 2117 322324 332 818 971216 statutory 1221 sure 3218 3913 2121 2320 33991017 201015 244 1224 3915254 2924 3319 34410 256121524 step 2312 surely 16243623 375143420 3125 3218 STEVENS Swenson 31740413 4320

rules 1516 166 332162024 1115 1818 41 272 3310 sentenced 62 1691215 343 3913 4323 441017 sword 118sentencer 49 3225 Souters 426 straight 422710 141 Truling 2914 specific 812 stretch 392222sentences 4025

T 2113313 1125 3921 strikes 3611sentencing take 521 1712 run 720 1521 specifically 519 submitted 458301625

1717 34131524 spoke 51919 4510separate 39 taken 173 2315 stage 3018 subsequent 63serious 281

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3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

71114 2417 told 71225 understanding Washington 18 X2423 409 920 1114 2623 wasnt 957

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1819 358 3020 311113 1611 2415 3424 1102 113 32 text 177 358 444 uses 2610 weight 1018 1154 459Thank 1911 true 219 usually 2421 1314 4319 143 381818

42910 457 try 1418 went 1110 153 3810Vtheory 2822 trying 2421 1225 202 16 4222 v 15 149 241 304911 264 2515 160 3822 4324 272 3310things 2918 turns 2423 were 1714 18 4222vaguely 2923713 4021 3210 2113 241722 19 26various 12204112 4218 two 6711 93 314 40922 1992 112vastly 3515think 7817 89 1224 159 4114 1996 112verdict 12289 92 1122 247111823 weve 324 345 version 161813122 143 251 264 White 241 2 versus 34171419 1519 2918 374 win 272310 2009 19

41 21112013 2110 40325 4218 winner 211719 2254(d)(1) 4314vigorously237 253 268 436 221 261025 2254(d)(2) 1919

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ultimate 2122352 36215 Winters 511W2125 222325 33619 39222 wishes 2415Wainwright2335 2410 427 won 2120 276 3 24 1225

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warden 13115three-part 1414 writ 395 4314 6271525 3910 understand432 wrong 1322

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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every other State can

MR BLUME Well I dont think thats a

fair determination of what the panel did in this case

What the panel said is number one that we look at the

procedure and definition of mental retardation that Ohio

has adopted Now it is the same as the definition of

mental retardation which was used by Dr Winter in her

testimony in Mr Biess trial and is the -- that is the

sole basis for the determination And they said the

burdens of proof are the same He had the burden of

establishing this fact of mental retardation by a

preponderance and thats the same So therefore on

that basis they decided he --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But the incentive is

vastly different which is an important factor in issue

preclusion That is if the prosecutor thinks that

theres overwhelming evidence of the aggravators the

nature of the crime the prosecutor is not going to care

so much about so there is mental retardation as a

mitigator but when its a difference when the

prosecutor wants to go for the death penalty and it

thinks that its got a secure case on the atrocious

matter in which the crime was committed there isnt the

same incentive to litigate as there is when it is the

ultimate question not an issue on the way to reaching

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

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the ultimate judgment

MR BLUME Well I dont think Justice

Ginsburg the incentives have to be identical but

certainly prior to Atkins the prosecution had the

incentive to contest the mental retardation question

and in fact in this case the failure to more adequately

contest it wasnt due to a lack of incentives it was

due to a lack of evidence There were three experts

that evaluated Mr Bies all of whom came to virtually

identical conclusions About his mental state

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Well this strikes

me as the sort of case where their incentives might well

be different as Justice Ginsburg suggested If youre

dealing with a borderline case you dont -- and you

think you have very compelling aggravating factors you

know why call attention to the -- the mitigating factor

of the mental condition when your case can be won on the

others

MR BLUME Well I think for three reasons

Mr Chief Justice Number one as this Court recognized

in Atkins in cases where there was evidence of mental

retardation the jury was much less likely to impose a

death sentence that in part was part of the basis of

this Courts decision in Atkins Second on appeal by

not contesting the evidence -- the State of Ohio did

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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contest it here -- you ran the risk that the Ohio Court

of Appeals or the Ohio Supreme Court would reach a

different conclusion number one on the balance of

aggravation and mitigation or number two on whether

the death sentence was disproportion And the Ohio

Supreme Court had done that in several other cases

But here also right you had not only the

direct appeal and the findings but you have additional

findings and concessions in State postconviction where

Mr Bies goes in in State postconviction and he raises

a pre-Atkins categorical bar claim and says Im a

person with mental retardation since this Courts

decision in Penry things have changed and I believe my

death sentence is disproportionate under the Ohio and

the United States Constitution

In response to that the State number one

conceded mental retardation and said we agree the record

reveals Mr Bies is a person with mental retardation

and the postconviction court then enters a finding of

fact

JUSTICE GINSBURG Did they admit that as a

finding of fact or did they say that mental retardation

had been found as a mitigator by the Ohio Supreme Court

MR BLUME No they said the record reveals

Mr Bies to be a person with mental retardation with an

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

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IQ of 69 It is not that there was we assume for the

sake of argument it was nothing like a mitigating It

was a finding of fact now that Mr Bies was a person --

JUSTICE GINSBURG It was an admission it

couldnt have been a finding of fact You said that

thats what the State claimed Where is the admission

of the State in this State postconviction proceeding

that Mr Bies is mentally retarded

MR BLUME It is in the Joint Appendix at

153 This is actually the State court order the

finding of fact and it says Findings of fact The

defendant is shown by the record to be mildly mentally

retarded with an IQ of 69

JUSTICE GINSBURG You told me that this --

that State conceded that the defendant was mentally

retarded and Im -- thats what I asked you

MR BLUME Im sorry that is both at JA

143 where -- JA 143 in the States motion response for

judgment The record reveals defendant to be mildly

mentally retarded with an IQ of 69 And that

concession is repeated in the post conviction appeal at

page 160 of the Joint Appendix

JUSTICE ALITO What does that have to do

with issue preclusion The State cant -- that may

raise an issue of judicial estoppel Is that

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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aggravators applies 316 2017 211 best 123A 1214 232 161922 221319 2718 beyond 125above-entitled 34151824 apply 1922 261 272223 282 1310111 4510 3517 309 3216 2817 30610 Bies 16 3412Absolutely 196

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2411 252021 14910 passages 3917111622 1215 positions 403 265 354 oral 111 22 35 penalty 45921138 158 161 possess 155 3620 3734 1913 1117 2181714 181020 possessed 1425

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

311 510 183 4217 put 4025 27 4212 1512 165 18111525 primarily 392 put-in-jeopardy recites 4419 307 4214 191 37910 prior 102425 177 recognize 420 Respondent 3719 387 22716 248 recognized 118 26 1914

Q4012 439 2411 3023 3620 responding 425 question 5234415 451 364 record 423 56 response 244

1016 128posture 109 problem 721 51622 8810 2418 333 165 1812226 3424 152324 285 1046724 3716 3818 2221 245post-Atkins 58 4371115 1123 181423 412123265 30714613 78 816 problems 437 3022 371724 result 824 913 334 35252112 432 4312 381219 3916 2513 3121 365 393 421 449 procedural 224 4025 432525 retardation 420 4324 44812post-conviction 226 3424 4420 452 5420 61317 441357 procedure 2825 refer 815 619 71417

questions 186precedent 1721 3225 341220 reference 64 81 91922426 455precise 2518 342125 355 392021 101121722

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precluded 222 153 201 regarded 411 137132124Rprecludes 323 2218 2318 regardless 2023 14317 1923 R 31preclusion 419 24812 252 relating 61213 205791618raise 3825 392 91 151011 2810 2916 15910 21771424

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reasonable 3201722 psychiatrist repeated 3821 271821 3411 125 1310prevented 4313 1922 required 815 388131620438previously 156 psychologists 391 441521

reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

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reviewed 921 238 252 3215 3412 311 4422524 1322 reviewing 414 3313 415 351 361025 suggest 810221317 272

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268 27415 17823 stated 2711 supports 2819328 338 311416 377 Sixth 1311 142 4221 451 suppose 5233624 4220

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

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constitutionally required

MR BLUME I think it primarily does raise

a question of judicial estoppel which we raised which

is -- and that is not a technical basis on which to

grant habeas It is a reason that the writ should be

dismissed as improvidently granted

There have been multiple concessions after

that This was raised by Mr Bies in his sort of --

when he asked for estoppel he asked for it on multiple

bases Just as the fact that the warden the panel

again decided this under 2254(d)(2) grounds The warden

did not raise an issue under 2254(d)(2) in this Court

JUSTICE SOUTER But Im not sure that

theres even anything -- I mean it does raise a

judicial estoppel issue but Im not sure there is a --

a record hereupon which a -- a judicial estoppel claim

could be maintained because in the passages that you

referred us to first the States concession and

secondly the finding which -- which followed from it it

was a reference to mild mental retardation and a

specific reference to an IQ of 69

I think its a stretch would be a stretch

to go from saying that a concession of mild mental

retardation for purposes of mitigation analysis should

be taken as a concession for dispositive mental

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

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68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

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retardation for Atkins purposes So I -- I have

difficulty in seeing any clear inconsistency in the

States two positions

JUSTICE GINSBURG The very next sentence is

as a matter of law -- the law as it was then -- such a

person may be punished by execution So again its --

the stakes are quite different

MR BLUME Well not in regard to this

particular claim The claim that were talking about

where this concession was made and where this finding

was made wasnt -- this wasnt the brief on mitigation

this was a postconviction challenge to his death

sentence as a matter of law saying --

JUSTICE GINSBURG But that must have been

the page you called my attention to must have been

pre-Atkins

MR BLUME It was pre-Atkins but the claim

was a pre-Atkins Atkins claim The claim was not - was

I am categorically ineligible for the death penalty and

I am ineligible because since the Courts decision in

Atkins things have changed

JUSTICE GINSBURG No no were back --

what you called my attention to was pre-Atkins It was

the application made to the State court before Atkins

which put two sentences together One was the record

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

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reveals defendant to be mildly mentally regarded with an

IQ of about 69 As a matter of law such a person may

be punished by execution This is all pre-Atkins

So one statement has to be read in the light

of what was its significance and it wasnt the

conclusive factor at the time of that motion

MR BLUME Well that was the claim His

claim was it violates the Eighth Amendment to excuse

people with mental retardation This was not -- this

was after the direct appeal He now filed for post

conviction and he goes in and says look Ive been sort

of tracking things since Atkins States have -- adopt

new laws

JUSTICE GINSBURG Since Atkins were

talking about --

MR BLUME Im sorry since Penry Since

Penry there have been new developments and I believe

that a new consensus exists the one that this Court

subsequently embraced and it violates the Eighth

Amendment and the Ohio Constitution to execute persons

with mental retardation And it was in response to that

claim that the State conceded the fact of mental

retardation and it was in response to that claim that

the State court found again Mr Bies to be a person with

mental retardation

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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That wasnt in some question of the balance

of aggravating circumstances That was a straight claim

that you cannot execute me because I have mental

retardation

And so I was really responding more to

Justice Souters questions of judicial estoppel and was

it the same issue in this and I think it clearly was at

that time in this particular context

Thank you

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

Mr Mizer you have ten minutes remaining

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF BENJAMIN C MIZER

ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER

MR MIZER First with respect to the

judicial estoppel arguments and the States purported

concessions as Justice Ginsburg noted the statement to

which Mr Bies points was pre-Atkins and Mr Biess

argument ignores that Atkins changed things in two ways

one consequential by enacting by placing a categorical

bar on the States and the second definitional So for

the reasons stated of our -- in our yellow brief at

pages 16 to 18 the judicial estoppel argument fails for

all kinds of reasons

But more to the point judicial estoppel

shouldnt apply here also because the State whatever it

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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was saying at the time was not talking about the

three-part post-Atkins definition of mental retardation

in Ohio

Mr Bies also argues that 2254(d)(2) is

enough to give support to -- to the Sixth Circuits

grant of relief -- of relief here but there are two

problems with that argument The first problem is that

the Sixth Circuit disregarded the reasonable

determination by the States postconviction court that

the Atkins standard had never been applied The second

problem is that we shouldnt even get to 2254(d)(2)

because there are legal problems with the Sixth

Circuits reasoning that should have prevented it from

granting the writ under 2254(d)(1) Mr Bies argues

that there is not a legal problem because there was an

acquittal in this case because the Ohio Supreme Courts

statement on direct review that Mr Bies -- that Mr

Biess mild to borderline mental retardation merits

weight and mitigation was enough to entitle him to a

life sentence But thats not an acquittal and its a

severe distortion of what this Court said in Sattazahn

about an acquittal

JUSTICE STEVENS Mr Mizer can I just get

one clarifying question The concession at page 160 of

the record The record reveals the defendant to be

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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mildly retarded with an IQ of about 69 and then they

argue as a matter of law that he cannot be -- he may be

punished Is it your position that the further

proceeding in the Ohio trial court that the State

intends to argue that a person who is mentally retarded

with an IQ of about 69 may be executed

MR MIZER No Your Honor the -- this

statement will be beside the point and the question now

post-Atkins --

JUSTICE STEVENS So youll offer evidence

to show that statement is inaccurate

MR MIZER The -- the question is the

question posed in Atkins doesnt hinge so narrowly on

IQ IQ is one of the three elements and so the experts

on -- on postconviction review will now determine what

his IQ is

JUSTICE STEVENS I understand that The --

could well be different But is it Ohios intent to

disagree with that statement insofar as it recites

facts That the record reveals the defendant to be

mildly mentally retarded with an IQ of about 69 I

understand you will argue that thats not sufficient to

-- to come within Atkins But do you intend to say --

to challenge the accuracy of that factual statement

MR MIZER Yes Your Honor as the State

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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3820 3921 412 441621

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postconviction court stated in this case that -- the

record evidence pertaining to IQ is not clear and so

IQ among all of the other elements of the mental

retardation will be up for determination

If there are no further questions we would

ask that you reverse the Sixth Circuit

CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS Thank you counsel

The case is submitted

(Whereupon at 1154 am the case in the

above-entitled matter was submitted)

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agree 1715 April 19 401182124 14213 179accuracy 4424 3316 3717 arguably 1023 411214 4218 2322 271617accused 624

agreed 41214 argue 62424 4310 441323 2721 3213acquittal 314 41618 101121 119 atrocious 3522 369 371018448 178 297

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182 192announced 4215 Blume 117 25additional 378 271625 40222822 Ashe 31725 42 19121315adequate 195

balance 187answer 75 158 422 1511 2013 21259238 373 421appeal 153 171 163161819 223 237adequately 366

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reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

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Alderson Reporting Company

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Alderson Reporting Company

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Alderson Reporting Company

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Alderson Reporting Company

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catch-all 131 clear 616 402 concluded 57 contrary 286 creates 2213

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Alderson Reporting Company

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Alderson Reporting Company

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factor 62 715 4114 4216 hinge 4413135 1411 40211192021 Ginsburgs 245 history 1025159 1725 incorporate1225 13117 give 321 238 Hoag 1610185 2312 1611261920 348 289121723 hold 312 184 2419 257 independent3515 3616 3118 435 holds 151 1721 3020 3117 194 2311416 given 71 148 Honor 425 67 32236710 independently

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factual 307 goals 264 hope 1613formed 2110 insofar 44193223 4424 goes 192 2716 hung 1311forming 1923 instance 257

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49

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

insufficient 296 1416 1918 1115 1210 laws 4113 3917 intellectual 514 Ithaca 117 135 141519 lead 310 3121 making 83 intend 4423 ie 73 1518 1710 leave 3411 manner 2415 intends 445 18818 193 left 1613 2019 marked 1320

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judgment 8378161923 441017 457 2021 mental 420 54 88121418912 195 lines 39 520 61217

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Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

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Alderson Reporting Company

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possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

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questions 186precedent 1721 3225 341220 reference 64 81 91922426 455precise 2518 342125 355 392021 101121722

quite 141617precisely 344 proceed 2821 referred 3918 11271125407preclude 349 proceeding 63 regard 408 1261123

precluded 222 153 201 regarded 411 137132124Rprecludes 323 2218 2318 regardless 2023 14317 1923 R 31preclusion 419 24812 252 relating 61213 205791618raise 3825 392 91 151011 2810 2916 15910 21771424

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reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

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Alderson Reporting Company

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221315 2910 serve 264 stakes 407 2211 2713S 322425 serves 264 stand 328 2916 3223S 21 31

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Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

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54

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

55

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

credible 2915 3819 411 201620 2425 1522 162 1619 crime 351823 4325 4420 4415 1761822 entitles 3112 crimes 3024 defendants 43 determined 139 3091216 equivalent 296 criminal 225 defendants 1920 203 3113 3220 ESQ 11517 23

2919 3018 2713 2218 248 doubt 125 258 3314 defense 338 2712 1311 276 essence 2215

defined 48 developments Dr 551118 essential 2323 D defining 84 4117 1218 1812 essentially 295

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decided 318 2413 29182323 dismissed 396 3517 368211919 2511 3017 3314describes 239 dispositive 820 3625 4410 271922 3422 elements 535describing 325 824 913 452 3513 3911 3413 4414designed 2424 3925 exactly 2020

decision 319 453determination disproportion 259 2824 52 1117 elevate 261658 8222325 375 example 242 1822 191921 embraced 411999 124 1924 disproportion 2819 21412 2212 embracing2122 2336 3714 excerpts 1020 221219 299 2113261417 3213 dispute 324 excluded 718 3624 3713 enacting 42193223 3357 disregarded excuse 418 4020 engage 23113539 439 438 execute 3410

declined 1611 engaged 106454 distortion 4321 4120 423 defect 1225 ensure 195determinations doctrine 1511 executed 2214 defendant 525 enters 37192123 1517 446

624 161013 entirely 336determinative doing 724 133 executing 84 16162023 3419261919 134 246 349 execution 406 287 291924 entitle 2924determine 312 342021 413 3018 312 311 4319513 617 double 3911 exhausted 1716 3314 381215 entitled 16171212 1412 1510171920 exhaustion

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Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

17111113 fair 1116 353 fought 2120 going 1420 153 I existence 128 fairest 1123 found 111417 1518 3411 identical 36310exists 102 2124 far 522 1917 1221 136 3518 identification

2318 4118 247 291212 144 2225 grabs 2813 2313 expansive 167 favor 2713 2322 2577 grant 818 395 identify 2316

1614 Federal 164 261212 285 436 323 expert 1412 172125 181 3424 3723 granted 396 identity 3020

2915 2811 318 4124 granting 4314 302124experts 512 filed 4110 frankly 268 great 1015 ignores 4218

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617 717 913 918 1010 hear 33371922 383 inaccurate101822 1413 1210 135 hearing 3122038511 3919 4411203 2410 2025 2136 422 512 185 4010 incentive 10152522 27312 2115 2221 199 2717findings 516 351424 365 299 334714 237 266 275 heinous 61234 3789 incentives 3633511 366 279 348 held 181 3320 3811 36712372022 383 3514 36313 3321fine 1720 includes 515163851111 3721 38414 helps 132first 31422 including 5113910 4122 4041422 highlighted 79615 1216 inconsistency

factor 62 715 4114 4216 hinge 4413135 1411 40211192021 Ginsburgs 245 history 1025159 1725 incorporate1225 13117 give 321 238 Hoag 1610185 2312 1611261920 348 289121723 hold 312 184 2419 257 independent3515 3616 3118 435 holds 151 1721 3020 3117 194 2311416 given 71 148 Honor 425 67 32236710 independently

factors 319 141012 253 76 815 9215 335 3918 310 920111320 124 go 319 1123 1014 11224214 437 individual 24312562124 135 1519 1216 138focused 1917 ineligible 2921131025 3615 182 261718 161 1714followed 3919 3315 401920

facts 1925 2810 2913 1810 196Ford 149 inquiries 824420 3521 3923 44725form 1918 insanity 149

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49

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

insufficient 296 1416 1918 1115 1210 laws 4113 3917 intellectual 514 Ithaca 117 135 141519 lead 310 3121 making 83 intend 4423 ie 73 1518 1710 leave 3411 manner 2415 intends 445 18818 193 left 1613 2019 marked 1320

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315 15111723420 2617 266 2759 2715 2913 4510 15192022interpret 1116 28421 291 level 7420 921 matters 2420 16323 176 interpretations 291217 302 925 258 mean 423 812 17182324168 31361625 liability 2919 820 2212 30101316interpreted 32518 3323 301819 3315 2323 2420 3113 32203119 33162024 life 518 2223 2515 2622

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judge 412 103 IQ 515151925 4041422 limitations 514 means 420 914 103 12131564161920 4114 42610 517 3313 281115 318 625 74 813 4216 4323 line 620 2020 meant 206

judgment 8378161923 441017 457 2021 mental 420 54 88121418912 195 lines 39 520 61217

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Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

271821 3411 196 421112 3716 order 513 196 2225 2522 388121520 4214 4323 nuts 3024 2521 3810 2921 3118 411 44521 4471225 NY 117 originally 1422 3521 4019

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51

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

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52

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

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53

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

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54

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

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55

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

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49

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

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judgment 8378161923 441017 457 2021 mental 420 54 88121418912 195 lines 39 520 61217

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50

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

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51

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

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questions 186precedent 1721 3225 341220 reference 64 81 91922426 455precise 2518 342125 355 392021 101121722

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precluded 222 153 201 regarded 411 137132124Rprecludes 323 2218 2318 regardless 2023 14317 1923 R 31preclusion 419 24812 252 relating 61213 205791618raise 3825 392 91 151011 2810 2916 15910 21771424

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1318 263241414 321 prosecution remember 162 392024 401 3015 4143246 172 364 render 2921 419212325

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reasonable 3201722 psychiatrist repeated 3821 271821 3411 125 1310prevented 4313 1922 required 815 388131620438previously 156 psychologists 391 441521

reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

52

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

221315 2910 serve 264 stakes 407 2211 2713S 322425 serves 264 stand 328 2916 3223S 21 31

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reviewed 921 238 252 3215 3412 311 4422524 1322 reviewing 414 3313 415 351 361025 suggest 810221317 272

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role 2391024 somebody 276 148 2019 1421 151sell 1423 2623 sorry 610 3817 3420 3715 182124 207 sense 45 94

rule 43 2018 4116 4112 4220 2025 214144 1625 22131517 sort 1623 2920 States 3818 2319212524 2711 2817 3612 398 3918 403 2720 3416sentence 410 291020 329 4111 4215 439 372623924 1624 3219192021 SOUTER 811 statute 152 43161744 2117 322324 332 818 971216 statutory 1221 sure 3218 3913 2121 2320 33991017 201015 244 1224 3915254 2924 3319 34410 256121524 step 2312 surely 16243623 375143420 3125 3218 STEVENS Swenson 31740413 4320

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1717 34131524 spoke 51919 4510separate 39 taken 173 2315 stage 3018 subsequent 63serious 281

53

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

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1819 358 3020 311113 1611 2415 3424 1102 113 32 text 177 358 444 uses 2610 weight 1018 1154 459Thank 1911 true 219 usually 2421 1314 4319 143 381818

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41 21112013 2110 40325 4218 winner 211719 2254(d)(1) 4314vigorously237 253 268 436 221 261025 2254(d)(2) 1919

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54

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

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55

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

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judge 412 103 IQ 515151925 4041422 limitations 514 means 420 914 103 12131564161920 4114 42610 517 3313 281115 318 625 74 813 4216 4323 line 620 2020 meant 206

judgment 8378161923 441017 457 2021 mental 420 54 88121418912 195 lines 39 520 61217

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50

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

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181625 349141521 229 30142223 2312 4213 never 45 518 3423 355 3124 3215374 3924 place 331

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normal 288 operation 1516 particularly2621 341524 points 4217 normally 224 3419 619Mizer 115 238 Poland 13215

2525 2813 opinion 205 parties 3253457 424 1322 141 noted 4216 2111 108 11165710 725 posed 4413 novo 106 opinions 1923 party 89 2120 814 921115 position 189 number 74 247 opportunity 2618917 10514 2925 443

2411 252021 14910 passages 3917111622 1215 positions 403 265 354 oral 111 22 35 penalty 45921138 158 161 possess 155 3620 3734 1913 1117 2181714 181020 possessed 1425

51

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

311 510 183 4217 put 4025 27 4212 1512 165 18111525 primarily 392 put-in-jeopardy recites 4419 307 4214 191 37910 prior 102425 177 recognize 420 Respondent 3719 387 22716 248 recognized 118 26 1914

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questions 186precedent 1721 3225 341220 reference 64 81 91922426 455precise 2518 342125 355 392021 101121722

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precluded 222 153 201 regarded 411 137132124Rprecludes 323 2218 2318 regardless 2023 14317 1923 R 31preclusion 419 24812 252 relating 61213 205791618raise 3825 392 91 151011 2810 2916 15910 21771424

39121421171819 318 3216 relevance 1320 22791424raised 247 393 221 261910 387 444 relevant 1223 2322 2439

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1318 263241414 321 prosecution remember 162 392024 401 3015 4143246 172 364 render 2921 419212325

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3322 3441925 protection 1619 reopened 669 417 85 1118 395prevent 1515 proven 243 611 129 1413

reasonable 3201722 psychiatrist repeated 3821 271821 3411 125 1310prevented 4313 1922 required 815 388131620438previously 156 psychologists 391 441521

reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

52

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

221315 2910 serve 264 stakes 407 2211 2713S 322425 serves 264 stand 328 2916 3223S 21 31

return 1616 set 425 standard 425 subsequentlysake 382 reveals 371824 severe 4321 2318 4310 3023 4119Sam 3110

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reverse 2723 shot 1547 283 state 41921 3372922 4321 456 show 422 154 510 715 substantial 517saying 912

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reviewed 921 238 252 3215 3412 311 4422524 1322 reviewing 414 3313 415 351 361025 suggest 810221317 272

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2311 simply 1112 412224 4225 Sunnen 1514second 315 154 right 418 1115 1424 155 44425 support 43515710 1723

268 27415 17823 stated 2711 supports 2819328 338 311416 377 Sixth 1311 142 4221 451 suppose 5233624 4220

rise 719 1720 2111 statement 1218 1421 27104310 risk 371 435812 456 131215 414 Supreme 1112secondly 3919 ROBERTS 33 skills 51717 4216 4317 413 51 616 secure 3522

1911 2912 622 817 448111924 71124 1016 see 24516302 3611 sole 359 statements 286 1124 12132616 308 4210 457 Solicitor 115 States 1112 1331216seeing 402

role 2391024 somebody 276 148 2019 1421 151sell 1423 2623 sorry 610 3817 3420 3715 182124 207 sense 45 94

rule 43 2018 4116 4112 4220 2025 214144 1625 22131517 sort 1623 2920 States 3818 2319212524 2711 2817 3612 398 3918 403 2720 3416sentence 410 291020 329 4111 4215 439 372623924 1624 3219192021 SOUTER 811 statute 152 43161744 2117 322324 332 818 971216 statutory 1221 sure 3218 3913 2121 2320 33991017 201015 244 1224 3915254 2924 3319 34410 256121524 step 2312 surely 16243623 375143420 3125 3218 STEVENS Swenson 31740413 4320

rules 1516 166 332162024 1115 1818 41 272 3310 sentenced 62 1691215 343 3913 4323 441017 sword 118sentencer 49 3225 Souters 426 straight 422710 141 Truling 2914 specific 812 stretch 392222sentences 4025

T 2113313 1125 3921 strikes 3611sentencing take 521 1712 run 720 1521 specifically 519 submitted 458301625

1717 34131524 spoke 51919 4510separate 39 taken 173 2315 stage 3018 subsequent 63serious 281

53

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

71114 2417 told 71225 understanding Washington 18 X2423 409 920 1114 2623 wasnt 957

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years 211tells 147 traditional 253 34135 421 yellow 4221ten 4211 3221 United 1112 way 179 2123

Tennard 721 treat 1134 3715 2223 235 0 terms 2712 treated 722 unreasonable 2539 324 08-598 15test 1819 1316 298 1011 1924 3525 testified 1219 trial 412 921 unsworn 1218 ways 2422 1

1813 104 1424 unusual 3224 4218 101 1811testifying 1921 1813 28912 urging 2116 weighed 2612 101a 59testimony 511 28121317 use 1425 1522 weighing 3415 104a 59 1811

1819 358 3020 311113 1611 2415 3424 1102 113 32 text 177 358 444 uses 2610 weight 1018 1154 459Thank 1911 true 219 usually 2421 1314 4319 143 381818

42910 457 try 1418 went 1110 153 3810Vtheory 2822 trying 2421 1225 202 16 4222 v 15 149 241 304911 264 2515 160 3822 4324 272 3310things 2918 turns 2423 were 1714 18 4222vaguely 2923713 4021 3210 2113 241722 19 26various 12204112 4218 two 6711 93 314 40922 1992 112vastly 3515think 7817 89 1224 159 4114 1996 112verdict 12289 92 1122 247111823 weve 324 345 version 161813122 143 251 264 White 241 2 versus 34171419 1519 2918 374 win 272310 2009 19

41 21112013 2110 40325 4218 winner 211719 2254(d)(1) 4314vigorously237 253 268 436 221 261025 2254(d)(2) 1919

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warden 13115three-part 1414 writ 395 4314 6271525 3910 understand432 wrong 1322

54

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

55

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

271821 3411 196 421112 3716 order 513 196 2225 2522 388121520 4214 4323 nuts 3024 2521 3810 2921 3118 411 44521 4471225 NY 117 originally 1422 3521 4019

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necessity 2525 2112 221012 4015 43243616 382 Petition 59 need 621 231921 254 pages 59 1811 mitigation 77 1812 needed 518 256 2611 42221018 117 Petitioner 14 needs 512 182 2720 3215 panel 1919201220 1314 116 249 36

181625 349141521 229 30142223 2312 4213 never 45 518 3423 355 3124 3215374 3924 place 331

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2411 252021 14910 passages 3917111622 1215 positions 403 265 354 oral 111 22 35 penalty 45921138 158 161 possess 155 3620 3734 1913 1117 2181714 181020 possessed 1425

51

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

311 510 183 4217 put 4025 27 4212 1512 165 18111525 primarily 392 put-in-jeopardy recites 4419 307 4214 191 37910 prior 102425 177 recognize 420 Respondent 3719 387 22716 248 recognized 118 26 1914

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questions 186precedent 1721 3225 341220 reference 64 81 91922426 455precise 2518 342125 355 392021 101121722

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precluded 222 153 201 regarded 411 137132124Rprecludes 323 2218 2318 regardless 2023 14317 1923 R 31preclusion 419 24812 252 relating 61213 205791618raise 3825 392 91 151011 2810 2916 15910 21771424

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3982913 306 proceedings 1520 2612 2717raises 3710322101121 1815 relief 4366 2817 301 ran 3713311 3516 process 1523 relitigated 74 311 3214reach 989 372 3824 166611 199 remaining 4211 341316 355 reached 910preclusive 611 prong 264 remains 1812 3571119reaching 352576 9514 144 proof 3510 remarks 1125 36522 3712 read 1237151316 234 properly 327 remedy 288 3717182225

1318 263241414 321 prosecution remember 162 392024 401 3015 4143246 172 364 render 2921 419212325

reading 262preponderance prosecutor rendering 1923 424 43218really 4252317 3512 1011 119 205 454 reason 424presented 117 35161821 reopen 2824 retarded 313

3322 3441925 protection 1619 reopened 669 417 85 1118 395prevent 1515 proven 243 611 129 1413

reasonable 3201722 psychiatrist repeated 3821 271821 3411 125 1310prevented 4313 1922 required 815 388131620438previously 156 psychologists 391 441521

reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

52

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

221315 2910 serve 264 stakes 407 2211 2713S 322425 serves 264 stand 328 2916 3223S 21 31

return 1616 set 425 standard 425 subsequentlysake 382 reveals 371824 severe 4321 2318 4310 3023 4119Sam 3110

3819 411 severity 720 stands 327 subsidiarysatisfied 255 4325 4420 shape 341225 starting 2019 241013 334 Sattazahn 48

reverse 2723 shot 1547 283 state 41921 3372922 4321 456 show 422 154 510 715 substantial 517saying 912

review 10719 4411 1111 148 successive 315241221 2815 1021 1313 shown 3812 152568 167 1623 17531617 328 1825 2310 shows 319 16814 172 suffers 514163423 3923 254 4317 Shuffling 3110 189 193420 suffice 57 88 4013 431 4415 significance 1925 2419 sufficient 2923says 419 511

reviewed 921 238 252 3215 3412 311 4422524 1322 reviewing 414 3313 415 351 361025 suggest 810221317 272

2319 significant 514 3791016 suggested 36132717 288 Revised 1222 similar 312021 386771015 summarily3711 3811 reweighing simple 1423 3824 4024 27234111

2311 simply 1112 412224 4225 Sunnen 1514second 315 154 right 418 1115 1424 155 44425 support 43515710 1723

268 27415 17823 stated 2711 supports 2819328 338 311416 377 Sixth 1311 142 4221 451 suppose 5233624 4220

rise 719 1720 2111 statement 1218 1421 27104310 risk 371 435812 456 131215 414 Supreme 1112secondly 3919 ROBERTS 33 skills 51717 4216 4317 413 51 616 secure 3522

1911 2912 622 817 448111924 71124 1016 see 24516302 3611 sole 359 statements 286 1124 12132616 308 4210 457 Solicitor 115 States 1112 1331216seeing 402

role 2391024 somebody 276 148 2019 1421 151sell 1423 2623 sorry 610 3817 3420 3715 182124 207 sense 45 94

rule 43 2018 4116 4112 4220 2025 214144 1625 22131517 sort 1623 2920 States 3818 2319212524 2711 2817 3612 398 3918 403 2720 3416sentence 410 291020 329 4111 4215 439 372623924 1624 3219192021 SOUTER 811 statute 152 43161744 2117 322324 332 818 971216 statutory 1221 sure 3218 3913 2121 2320 33991017 201015 244 1224 3915254 2924 3319 34410 256121524 step 2312 surely 16243623 375143420 3125 3218 STEVENS Swenson 31740413 4320

rules 1516 166 332162024 1115 1818 41 272 3310 sentenced 62 1691215 343 3913 4323 441017 sword 118sentencer 49 3225 Souters 426 straight 422710 141 Truling 2914 specific 812 stretch 392222sentences 4025

T 2113313 1125 3921 strikes 3611sentencing take 521 1712 run 720 1521 specifically 519 submitted 458301625

1717 34131524 spoke 51919 4510separate 39 taken 173 2315 stage 3018 subsequent 63serious 281

53

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

71114 2417 told 71225 understanding Washington 18 X2423 409 920 1114 2623 wasnt 957

x 1274115 431 3814 unexhausted 1015 181418 technical 394 tomorrow 3217 171525 182 213 318 367 Ytechnically 297 tracking 4112 unique 226 401111 415

years 211tells 147 traditional 253 34135 421 yellow 4221ten 4211 3221 United 1112 way 179 2123

Tennard 721 treat 1134 3715 2223 235 0 terms 2712 treated 722 unreasonable 2539 324 08-598 15test 1819 1316 298 1011 1924 3525 testified 1219 trial 412 921 unsworn 1218 ways 2422 1

1813 104 1424 unusual 3224 4218 101 1811testifying 1921 1813 28912 urging 2116 weighed 2612 101a 59testimony 511 28121317 use 1425 1522 weighing 3415 104a 59 1811

1819 358 3020 311113 1611 2415 3424 1102 113 32 text 177 358 444 uses 2610 weight 1018 1154 459Thank 1911 true 219 usually 2421 1314 4319 143 381818

42910 457 try 1418 went 1110 153 3810Vtheory 2822 trying 2421 1225 202 16 4222 v 15 149 241 304911 264 2515 160 3822 4324 272 3310things 2918 turns 2423 were 1714 18 4222vaguely 2923713 4021 3210 2113 241722 19 26various 12204112 4218 two 6711 93 314 40922 1992 112vastly 3515think 7817 89 1224 159 4114 1996 112verdict 12289 92 1122 247111823 weve 324 345 version 161813122 143 251 264 White 241 2 versus 34171419 1519 2918 374 win 272310 2009 19

41 21112013 2110 40325 4218 winner 211719 2254(d)(1) 4314vigorously237 253 268 436 221 261025 2254(d)(2) 1919

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ultimate 2122352 36215 Winters 511W2125 222325 33619 39222 wishes 2415Wainwright2335 2410 427 won 2120 276 3 24 1225

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2822 291 23251325 1422 worked 918 5wants 152underlying 307three 39 5234 wouldnt 15223521 50 1819underscored36819 4414 308

warden 13115three-part 1414 writ 395 4314 6271525 3910 understand432 wrong 1322

54

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

55

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

possession 1423 pre-Atkins 524 punished 406 4313 178 possible 167 71017 919 413 443 reasons 6812 research 1524 post 721 3821 214 228 purported 4215 115 159 reserve 187

4110 3711 401617 purposes 313 3619 422123 resolved 3014 postconviction 401823 413 76 3924 401 REBUTTAL respect 615

311 510 183 4217 put 4025 27 4212 1512 165 18111525 primarily 392 put-in-jeopardy recites 4419 307 4214 191 37910 prior 102425 177 recognize 420 Respondent 3719 387 22716 248 recognized 118 26 1914

Q4012 439 2411 3023 3620 responding 425 question 5234415 451 364 record 423 56 response 244

1016 128posture 109 problem 721 51622 8810 2418 333 165 1812226 3424 152324 285 1046724 3716 3818 2221 245post-Atkins 58 4371115 1123 181423 412123265 30714613 78 816 problems 437 3022 371724 result 824 913 334 35252112 432 4312 381219 3916 2513 3121 365 393 421 449 procedural 224 4025 432525 retardation 420 4324 44812post-conviction 226 3424 4420 452 5420 61317 441357 procedure 2825 refer 815 619 71417

questions 186precedent 1721 3225 341220 reference 64 81 91922426 455precise 2518 342125 355 392021 101121722

quite 141617precisely 344 proceed 2821 referred 3918 11271125407preclude 349 proceeding 63 regard 408 1261123

precluded 222 153 201 regarded 411 137132124Rprecludes 323 2218 2318 regardless 2023 14317 1923 R 31preclusion 419 24812 252 relating 61213 205791618raise 3825 392 91 151011 2810 2916 15910 21771424

39121421171819 318 3216 relevance 1320 22791424raised 247 393 221 261910 387 444 relevant 1223 2322 2439

3982913 306 proceedings 1520 2612 2717raises 3710322101121 1815 relief 4366 2817 301 ran 3713311 3516 process 1523 relitigated 74 311 3214reach 989 372 3824 166611 199 remaining 4211 341316 355 reached 910preclusive 611 prong 264 remains 1812 3571119reaching 352576 9514 144 proof 3510 remarks 1125 36522 3712 read 1237151316 234 properly 327 remedy 288 3717182225

1318 263241414 321 prosecution remember 162 392024 401 3015 4143246 172 364 render 2921 419212325

reading 262preponderance prosecutor rendering 1923 424 43218really 4252317 3512 1011 119 205 454 reason 424presented 117 35161821 reopen 2824 retarded 313

3322 3441925 protection 1619 reopened 669 417 85 1118 395prevent 1515 proven 243 611 129 1413

reasonable 3201722 psychiatrist repeated 3821 271821 3411 125 1310prevented 4313 1922 required 815 388131620438previously 156 psychologists 391 441521

reasoning 31211620 2023 requirement retroactive

52

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

221315 2910 serve 264 stakes 407 2211 2713S 322425 serves 264 stand 328 2916 3223S 21 31

return 1616 set 425 standard 425 subsequentlysake 382 reveals 371824 severe 4321 2318 4310 3023 4119Sam 3110

3819 411 severity 720 stands 327 subsidiarysatisfied 255 4325 4420 shape 341225 starting 2019 241013 334 Sattazahn 48

reverse 2723 shot 1547 283 state 41921 3372922 4321 456 show 422 154 510 715 substantial 517saying 912

review 10719 4411 1111 148 successive 315241221 2815 1021 1313 shown 3812 152568 167 1623 17531617 328 1825 2310 shows 319 16814 172 suffers 514163423 3923 254 4317 Shuffling 3110 189 193420 suffice 57 88 4013 431 4415 significance 1925 2419 sufficient 2923says 419 511

reviewed 921 238 252 3215 3412 311 4422524 1322 reviewing 414 3313 415 351 361025 suggest 810221317 272

2319 significant 514 3791016 suggested 36132717 288 Revised 1222 similar 312021 386771015 summarily3711 3811 reweighing simple 1423 3824 4024 27234111

2311 simply 1112 412224 4225 Sunnen 1514second 315 154 right 418 1115 1424 155 44425 support 43515710 1723

268 27415 17823 stated 2711 supports 2819328 338 311416 377 Sixth 1311 142 4221 451 suppose 5233624 4220

rise 719 1720 2111 statement 1218 1421 27104310 risk 371 435812 456 131215 414 Supreme 1112secondly 3919 ROBERTS 33 skills 51717 4216 4317 413 51 616 secure 3522

1911 2912 622 817 448111924 71124 1016 see 24516302 3611 sole 359 statements 286 1124 12132616 308 4210 457 Solicitor 115 States 1112 1331216seeing 402

role 2391024 somebody 276 148 2019 1421 151sell 1423 2623 sorry 610 3817 3420 3715 182124 207 sense 45 94

rule 43 2018 4116 4112 4220 2025 214144 1625 22131517 sort 1623 2920 States 3818 2319212524 2711 2817 3612 398 3918 403 2720 3416sentence 410 291020 329 4111 4215 439 372623924 1624 3219192021 SOUTER 811 statute 152 43161744 2117 322324 332 818 971216 statutory 1221 sure 3218 3913 2121 2320 33991017 201015 244 1224 3915254 2924 3319 34410 256121524 step 2312 surely 16243623 375143420 3125 3218 STEVENS Swenson 31740413 4320

rules 1516 166 332162024 1115 1818 41 272 3310 sentenced 62 1691215 343 3913 4323 441017 sword 118sentencer 49 3225 Souters 426 straight 422710 141 Truling 2914 specific 812 stretch 392222sentences 4025

T 2113313 1125 3921 strikes 3611sentencing take 521 1712 run 720 1521 specifically 519 submitted 458301625

1717 34131524 spoke 51919 4510separate 39 taken 173 2315 stage 3018 subsequent 63serious 281

53

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

3925 time 1015 1411 1415 2425 3911 142 talk 712 1857 3117 278 3339 warranted 411 wrongly 2719 talking 520 416 428 431 441722 41315 2722

71114 2417 told 71225 understanding Washington 18 X2423 409 920 1114 2623 wasnt 957

x 1274115 431 3814 unexhausted 1015 181418 technical 394 tomorrow 3217 171525 182 213 318 367 Ytechnically 297 tracking 4112 unique 226 401111 415

years 211tells 147 traditional 253 34135 421 yellow 4221ten 4211 3221 United 1112 way 179 2123

Tennard 721 treat 1134 3715 2223 235 0 terms 2712 treated 722 unreasonable 2539 324 08-598 15test 1819 1316 298 1011 1924 3525 testified 1219 trial 412 921 unsworn 1218 ways 2422 1

1813 104 1424 unusual 3224 4218 101 1811testifying 1921 1813 28912 urging 2116 weighed 2612 101a 59testimony 511 28121317 use 1425 1522 weighing 3415 104a 59 1811

1819 358 3020 311113 1611 2415 3424 1102 113 32 text 177 358 444 uses 2610 weight 1018 1154 459Thank 1911 true 219 usually 2421 1314 4319 143 381818

42910 457 try 1418 went 1110 153 3810Vtheory 2822 trying 2421 1225 202 16 4222 v 15 149 241 304911 264 2515 160 3822 4324 272 3310things 2918 turns 2423 were 1714 18 4222vaguely 2923713 4021 3210 2113 241722 19 26various 12204112 4218 two 6711 93 314 40922 1992 112vastly 3515think 7817 89 1224 159 4114 1996 112verdict 12289 92 1122 247111823 weve 324 345 version 161813122 143 251 264 White 241 2 versus 34171419 1519 2918 374 win 272310 2009 19

41 21112013 2110 40325 4218 winner 211719 2254(d)(1) 4314vigorously237 253 268 436 221 261025 2254(d)(2) 1919

10212711822 two-edged 118 Winter 5518 391112 434 violates 4181928101324 typical 224 1219 1921 4311violent 102529417 3014 204 357 27 19U virtually 369316 331822 Winters 1813 292904 1222

ultimate 2122352 36215 Winters 511W2125 222325 33619 39222 wishes 2415Wainwright2335 2410 427 won 2120 276 3 24 1225

1492614 273thinks 351622 277 3617waiving 1712 43525 361third 316 word 46 1522 want 521 1544 uncritically 42 29thought 111 words 98 1023

2822 291 23251325 1422 worked 918 5wants 152underlying 307three 39 5234 wouldnt 15223521 50 1819underscored36819 4414 308

warden 13115three-part 1414 writ 395 4314 6271525 3910 understand432 wrong 1322

54

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

55

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

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53

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

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54

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

55

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

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54

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

55

Alderson Reporting Company

Official - Subject to Final Review

65 525 625 81319 99

68 1813 69 1813 38113

3820 3921 412 441621

77 131

55

Alderson Reporting Company


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