Omega, Magellanic, and other TC's Archive 2006 · By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Friday, August 29,...

Omega, Magellanic, and other TC's Archive 2006

By Jeremy Gray (Gray) on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 06:21 pm: Edit

Thanks guys. E-mails sent.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 11:39 am: Edit

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 02:17 pm: Edit

Tim:

A while back I asked SVC/SPP for permission to send the TCs for the LMC stuff to Aaron Staley to load into 3.x; there was a discussion and then the assorted crises of January and February intervened.

Thanks for reminding me; I'll send a reminder to SVC/SPP

Are these going to get uploaded at some point? I rather enjoyed running them when we did here (along with my simulators and the omegans).

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 07:38 pm: Edit

Geoff, Just to let you know. I will be working on adding support into the SFB Online Client for LMC shields. I got the low down on how VRF (Volley Reduction Factor) and how it works.

Paul Franz

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 02:23 am: Edit

Cool.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Paul, anything I can do to help on the LMC shielding stuff for SFBOL?

http://www.adastragames.com/downloads/lmc_sfb.html

has the SSDs and cheat sheets in PDF format.

Someone who can make an ADB-style SSD is welcome to do so from what's there.

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 12:05 am: Edit

Ken, Has the VRF rules changed since September 2003? If not, then it is already implemented in the client.

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http://www.adastragames.com/downloads/lmc_sfb.html


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PAul Franz

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 01:18 am: Edit

It hasn't changed.

So all you need are SSDs?

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 09:33 am: Edit

Yup. The client automatically detects that it is an LMC ship from the number of shields. (i.e. there are 8 instead of 2 or 6)

Paul Franz

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Paul,

It also does it when there are only 4 shields. I found that out when I tried doing some solo playtesting of a Lorkesh CC by using a ship def and Selt TCA.

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 04:18 pm: Edit

Ken, Let me clarify the detection method. The client looks at the Shield numbers. So if you numbered the shields 2,4,6,8 then it is considered an LMC ship. If there is a better way to detect please tell me.

Paul Franz

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 09:52 am: Edit

Need a few volunteers. I have developed a TC for a race of my own making; I'd like some input from any of you tourney players, as to a few key points:

• Is the power balanced? • Are the shields and defenses balanced? • Does it have too many systems, or too little? • Would it match up fairly alongside other existing TC's?

If anyone's interested, just email me about it. Thanks in advance!

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 09:29 am: Edit

Mikes TC has been done as a SFBOL ship def and emailed to him. So it's "possible" to play it online. I finally got around to doing it this morning.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 10:52 am: Edit

Mind posting a screenshot of it?

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 11:01 am: Edit

Tim two things prevent me.


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mailto:[email protected]


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#1 It is Mikes design and its for a race for publication. If he wants to post the SSD it's up to him.

#2 I don't have a webpage So kinda hard to post anything

<EDIT> Just as I wouldn't appreciate someone yanking the rug out from under me by posting a Shield Galaxy TC without my permission. Possibly compromising the chances of getting it published as an E module.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 01:06 pm: Edit

Tim,

I can email it, if you like. It is very Fed in nature (lots of crunch, no seekers, lots of forward fire power and very little to the rear), and is from a race that has pure direct fire ships. They have no drones, no plasmas, and no attrition units. They do have very good point defenses, a good mix of phasers, and decent maneuverability. If you like the Fed, chances are good you'll like these, too. Playtesting has been alot of fun.

And, many thanks to Ken for taking the time to look it over and build the file so that it can be played online.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Wednesday, July 14, 2004 - 01:54 pm: Edit

Sure, [email protected]

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 09:33 am: Edit

Ok, answering Mike's questions in order....

1) It's got 32 warp, 38 power total. So, while it can het at speed 28, just holding all the weapons and nothing else will be speed 26. So, the ship will have move preference turn 1 likely at a key time. The type C TM will help as well.

However, as soon as it fires, this thing is creeping down to a crawl. Even if it rearmed just 3 of the plasma cannons and 4 into the phaser cap, thats a speed of 18, considering nothing in bats, trac, reinforce. All four, and in all honesty, I think all 4 are necessary, and the speed is 14. This could be an issue...

2) Shields and defenses are excellent. The phaser 2's are going to be needed to be used as offensive weapons, but the PDP things are pretty dang useful. Shielda are standard, and saw nothing that should change there.

3) The fact the ship has zero p1's out of three shields is a gigantic weakness. I understand that is kind of the point/conjecture of the ship, but dang, laugh.

4) ok...this will be somewhat long...



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Hydran: Interesting matchup. Because of the rear firing weakness, and the 2 turn massive rearm costs, the ship CANNOT fire until range 3/4 ,or it will be run over and crushed. Firing at the fighters won't be an option except with the PDPs, since all firepower will be necessary to hammer the Hydran in two volleys in an effort to strip weapons. However, I think most games would end turn 2 with the Hydran crushing it on the corner.

TKR/TFH/Gorn: These will pose a real problem, even if no plasma ever lands, ever. If the ship ever turns off, the plasma ship will give chase, and will NEVER have to launch anything until the opposing ship parks, or HETs back at it. No phaser 1's and no HW to the rear means the 4-5 p1's the enemy plasma ship fires at it every turn will be totally unreturned. I think Plasma will be more advantaged against it than they are against the Fed.

TKE: This is a somewhat special case, in that the ship can outrun 1 plasma. So, if it guesses right on the launch, it can make a game of it, and the plasma cannon is a pretty good subhunter weapon since it hits well. (Taking feedback at range 1 is a prob here though)

Klink: This will be a great matchup, of similar strengths. The Klink has extra power, and one turn arming weapons, but the excellent damage of the Tyuco's first strike at range 4/5 and the ability to blow through the drones with the two PDPs will make a great game. I'd guess this pretty even.

Shark/Kzinti/Aux: Ships the Fed can have alot of trouble with, but I think the Tyco with the PDPs turn the tables. Drones will get blown apart, so very little offensive firepower will be degraded by them. 12 phasers on the Tyco, will match up with the awesome phaser power capable on his opponents, so I think the normal threat of a total knife fight not to be as strong.

Tholians: These could be really bad, but dice will certainly matter here. The range 8 firepower of the Tyco is not all that great, but if all the cannons hit, 49 damage could be decapitating. That happens about 11-12%, which is not all that bad. 3 hitting for 39 wouldn't be the end of the world for the Tyco, presuming it could ever get another shot, (and generally a het would likely be necessary). 3 or more hitting is pretty decent, like 45%. Tholians will be advantaged, but I think the Tyco can make a game of it.

Andro: Charge it, kill it. No sweat. Even the old Andro would get mauled, since the range 3 firepower of this will crack the panels.

Fed: Cool matchup. I see the Fed wanting range 2, but I think the Tyco knows this, and will want to fire at range 3. The Fed, knowing this, might want to fire at range 4

and submit his rears to the followup strike. I'd expect the games to be bloody and fun.

There's my thoughts.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 10:14 am: Edit

Tim,

Thanks much for the detailed analysis! Much of what you posted came up in playtesting the non tourney ships, as well. Lacking rear fire power has been an issue, though not an insurmountable one; and, it's just plain racial flavor. The expense of the PC's can definately be a problem; we saw quite alot of downloading in turns were speed was a big priority. I personally find that a good, solid alpha with four of them at range 3 or less will do enough damage to anyone that I can start downloading without too much worry.

Biggest problems have been plasma ships. Tycos just don't have very good plasma defenses (most only carry two shuttles...the TC is an exception, based on the unique needs of a tourney ship).

All in all, I've found them similar to the Feds, with some Klingon-ish flavor, as well (mostly from the better turn mode, phaser 2's, and PDP's.)

Again, thanks for the input! If, by some chance, you do decide you'd like to play it, let me know and I can send you the ship DEF and counter files.

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Hmm my copy doesn't show 32 warp. It probably shouldn't have 32 warp unless it shows a need for a minor tweak up in play. Personally I'd avoid this tweak because it voids the tourney standard.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, July 15, 2004 - 01:38 pm: Edit

I have a revised one, Geoff, based on some other comments I got. For what its worth, the Selt also has 32 warp.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 04:03 pm: Edit

This is for the X Ship Captains to use in Tournaments I have a short list of rules/modifications on MY SSD Page.

Fed XTD

Klingon XTD

Hydran XTD

ISC XTD

http://www.geocities.com/sfbkludge/IXTD.gif

http://www.geocities.com/sfbkludge/HXTD.gif

http://www.geocities.com/sfbkludge/KXTD.gif

http://www.geocities.com/sfbkludge/FXTD.gif

http://www.geocities.com/sfbkludge/myssd









By Marcus J. Giegerich (Marcusg) on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 05:23 pm: Edit

That Hydran looks horrifying

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, July 04, 2006 - 06:39 pm: Edit

So any updates on Magelanic TCs?

-Peter

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Tuesday, July 04, 2006 - 10:47 pm: Edit

Peter, Unfortunately, we didn't have a chance due to most of the judges not be familiar with the rules for the weapons. There will be work done on it.

Paul Franz

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 05, 2006 - 10:17 am: Edit

Cool. I found the old SSDs to download, so I can just mess around with those for now.

Thanks, -Peter

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Wednesday, July 05, 2006 - 12:48 pm: Edit

Playtest SSDs have been updated to match what was actually published in C5. I have not updated the cheat sheets yet, because I can't find the original files the PDFs were made from. When I find the files, I'll update them to C5 standards.

If you HAVE C5, you can use the TCs linked to above.

Change Log:

Baduvai TC: -1 MD; note on apportionment of special rounds updated to match new loadout CPA-2s downrated to FA CPA table changed to match what's in C5 One pair of LLs have been removed (LS/RS), number of BANKs unchanged

Eneen TC: Neutron Beam tables changed to fit the one published in C5

Maghadim TC: 2 C Hull removed 1 Lab removed 1 Tran removed




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Uthiki TC: 1 APR removed. Retains 4 BTTY and 4 BANK

On shielding:

Standard GP TC shielding of 30-30-24-24 results in 162 shield boxes total.

Magellanic shielding of 14-14-10-10 on the outers results in 72*1.75=126 on the outer shields, and 40 on the inner shields, for 166 shield boxes total. In general, one outer shield box is 1.75 GP shield boxes, one inner shield box is equal to one GP shield box.

Eneen TC set at 12-12-12-12 on the outers to preserve racial flavor. Same total shield box count as above.

Our experiences:

1) These things have an uphill fight against plasma, provided the plasma ship knows not to EPT.

2) ISC is the major exception to this - fly it like a Gorn with a PPD, rather than as a scrape and slide ship.

3) All of these ships have something of a Fed-like dynamic on re-arm turns.

4) Uthiki TC was widely regarded as weakest of the set, comparable to the LDR. Conversely, it caused the most panic in opponents for its ability to get internals before dropping a shield.

5) Seltorian TC with 3 Shield Crackers is scary versus these things, with the ability to ignore VRF.

6) New ships have the advantage of "nobody's practiced against them", particularly new ships with unusual defensive technologies, since defensive balance is one of the places where the SFB game engine is most sensitive to change. These ships will appear strong until you adapt to them, though most of that tends to go by the way side on the tourney map, where overloads are more common.

7) Use your tractors against MDs to preserve your firepower.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, July 05, 2006 - 02:55 pm: Edit

Ken Burnside:

At this juncture tournament SSDs for the Magellanics have to come through this office before they can be released for playtest. You really should know better


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(seriously). This is not an effort to "run you off" or anything of that nature, but to point out that there is a process, and you should not be circumventing it.

Thank you.

By Ken Burnside (Ken_Burnside) on Wednesday, July 05, 2006 - 04:06 pm: Edit

SPP - SSDs are en route for your perusal to do with as you deem appropriate.

I had forgotten they were up there - they got put up (originally) back in 2002 or so, and were based on SSDs dating back to 1999.

Rather than have people run around with SSDs that did not reflect what was in C5, I simply updated them.

They've been taken down off my site.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:57 am: Edit

Are there any ships that can be playestested in a tourney environment that I can try at the upcoming Council of 5 Nations?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 02:51 pm: Edit

Timothy Sheehy:

Ken Burnside sent in his versions, and I will try to get them uploaded this week to Paul Franz for testing. But they are not going to be sanctioned by convention time, and I am not at this juncture certain that they will be in the Origins Touranment any time soon. But I will see what I can do.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 02:54 pm: Edit

Thanks Steve. Are there any Non-Magellanic ships that are playtestable in tournies?

(This question may have been answered somewhere else, so pardon the duplicity if it was)


Timothy Sheehy:

The Vudar and a new attempt at an Andromedan Touranment ship were sent to Paul Franz so he could run tests in SFBOL.

Steven P.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 03:53 pm: Edit

SPP. As a follow-up, have rules on how to handle the playtest Vudar in the Tournament been published (i.e., how does the EW function of the IPG work in this setting)?


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Andy Palmer:

The Vudar TCA includes a note that the IPG (there is only one) can only be used in pulse mode and cannot produce EW. I am not at this juncture aware of any other rules that needed to be clarified for the ship's use. If you know of some, let me know.

By Scott Moellmer (Goofy) on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 06:15 pm: Edit

=== Thanks, SPP. Maybe i missed the memo, but that info is news to me, and very welcome to know. ;)


Scott Moellmer:

Hunh?

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 09:30 pm: Edit

News to me, too. There was certainly no such note on the playtest Vudar TC I downloaded.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 09:04 am: Edit

SteveP: Not trying to be difficult, but am I allowed to try the new Andro at Council of 5 Nations, and if so, will the tournament still be sanctioned?

Presuming the answer is yes, how do I get a new Andro SSD? Should I just ask Paul?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 10:24 am: Edit

Timothy Sheehy:

I do not think you are being difficult.

The Andromedan is, as noted (and as with the Vudar) in playtest. That is why Paul has them. Neither are sanctioned. We need playtest reports, again why Paul Franz has them. I can send you copies if you want to have people take a look and test them against other tournament ships, but as of right now they are only, and would not count as touranment battles per se. They would be something you could run on the side.

Troy J. Latta:

If the ship is the one I sent to Paul Franz, there will be a revision date between the table for listing what your boarding parties are guarding and who is running the ship on the left-hand side of the SSD of 05 July 2006. Just beneath that






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revision date between the Phaser-1 table and the Turn Mode Table is a note that says "The IPG cannot be used in jamming mode (G36.32), but can be used in Defensive Ionic Wave Mode (G36.33)." If it does not have that revision date, and does not have that note on the IPG (or if it has more than one IPG), it is not the current playtest ship.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 11:20 am: Edit

You can certainly see why it has to be that way, Tim. We don't know if the new Andro is too good, not good enough, or just right. If it turns out to be "too good" then the tournament is ruined for everybody and the victor gets a cheap ace card he didn't really earn.

By Scott Moellmer (Goofy) on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 11:28 am: Edit

=== Steve P:

As Troy stated, I had never seen that memo, and had been waiting until official ADB word was given on how to utilize the Vudar in tourney practice, so it's good news to finally

hear!

Will go DL the revised ship ASAP.

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 08:21 pm: Edit

The Vudar that is currently available for downloading on the Tournament Download page is missing the note.

Paul Franz

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 09:26 am: Edit

Steve(s), ok, please send me the Andro version, and I'll try and get a bunch of games in and against it with some strong players and do some writeups on it. Is there any form in particular you would like, do you want both players EA's, SSDs, anything?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Timothy Sheehy:

Sent you the SSD.

Standard report format should do.

I have sent you copies, and noted in that missive (and will note here) that of course in this case we are only interested in duels versus other tournament ships under the tournament rules.








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It is always a good idea to keep track of freakish things (unusually good or bad luck for one side or the other) and try to factor that out (but allow play to procede naturally), and obviously when dealing with Andromedans it is usually (given the nature of Andromedan technology) a good idea to try have both players be fairly conversant with how Andromedan ships operate. (Clearly someone who has played Klingons a lot but has never played an Andromedan ship, or even against an Andromedan ship, is not going to do very well against a player who has played Andormedans successfully.)

By zach walke (Zackwalk) on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 10:25 am: Edit

the Vudar IPG it damages all drones at max dam (unlike ESG that spreads damage). Drone ships be aware.their neeeds a quite of a bit of droneraces vs Vudar testing before it gets sanctioned IMO

By James Mcmurray (Jmcmurra) on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 10:48 am: Edit

It doesn't last very long. I haven't tried any TC battles, but in normal Vudar vs. drone user duels the IPG is useful but not a crushing victory on its own. It just means that you can't drop an entire stack of drones out there like you would against most other opponents.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 11:26 am: Edit

The problem with the IPG versus drones is that it takes a lot of power. If you are powering it, you are slowing down, which makes dealing with drones harder.

Used correctly, it can be very effective, but the Vudar needs it, given its unimpressive phaser suite.

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 08:00 am: Edit

Remember the IPG is a capacitor. Therefore after it is charged it doesn't cost you anything. And it starts fully charged.

So you should only use the IPG when there is a relativily large sawm. (i.e. greater than 2 drones)

Paul Franz

By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 04:31 pm: Edit

With the removal of the jamming mode, the Vudar is HIGHLY susceptible to attack by anyone resembling big plasma. The only real defense the Vudar have in this arena is jamming mode followed by prayer and without that, they're pretty much ducks in the water.

If you're going to remove their largest plasma defense, is there a chance of getting say 4 Ph3 that face to the side arcs(2&2)?

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 07:57 pm: Edit




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Michael. The Vudar still have their two primary anti-plasma weapons: speed and weasels.

By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:46 pm: Edit

Andy, I agree that speed and weasels are still options, but I don't think there's a ship in the game that has ONLY those to options against plasma.

Apart from FA, the greatest phaser threat you can put on a plasma is a 1P1+P3, which makes it very hard take any approach apart from nose-diving the plasma or bolting.

A wise plasma opponent (apart from the WE) could maintain a constant stream of plasma on the nose of the Vudar, resulting in either the Vudar not getting a shot or the plasma ship doing a constant 2:1 or better damage per pass.

The Vudar does have prox loads as an option, but on a fixed board, that's likely to leave you dead in a corner and could risk a call of non-offensive behaviour.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 02:10 pm: Edit

Michael. Fed, Klingon, Kzinti, WBS, WAX, TKE, TKR, TFH, Gorn, Seltorian, Lyran, LDR, ISC - all of those ships only have speed and weasels as plamsa defenses. Only the Hydran (who arguably has 2 fighter ph-Gs as plasma defense), Andromedan (disdev & pa mine) and Tholians (web) have defenses beyond speed and weasels.

In fact, in the tourney environment, were the IPG EW effect work against plasma, that would make the Vudar almost unbeatable to a plasma ship.


Well, you're missing something there. That's not the only weapons those races bring. The all bring phasers to the table. Let's look at the minimum phasers they can bear on a plasma (note, these are minimums): Fed ... 2P1+2P3 Klingon ... P1+2P2+P3 Kzinti ... 2P1+2P3 WAX ... 4P1+2P3+Options WBS ... 2P1+2P3+Options TKE ... 5P3 OR 2P1+3P3 TKR ... P1+3P3 TFH ... P1+2P3 Gorn ... 4P1+P3 Seltorian ... 2P1+2P3 Lyran ... 2P1+2P3 LDR ... 4P3(G)







ISC ... 2P1+2P3

Each of the races you mentioned bares at least 4P3 or better in every phaser arc. Now, let's look at the Vudar.

Vudar ... 2P2+P3

Which is about a P3 less than everyone else in the rear half of their ship.

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 06:24 pm: Edit

I can't believe there's an arc where the Klink can only bring 2 P-2. With their funky cross-overs? I can see Andy's point to a certain extent, though. The last thing a Gorn wants to do is use his primary weapon (ph-1s) to shoot down seeking weapons. The only ships I've faced as a Selty are Klink and Hydran. Neither of those has large amounts of SW except for the Klink's SP and it's easy enough to deal with.

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 06:35 pm: Edit

I just thought about this a little more, and an alternative solution would be to allow the IPG to damage plasma as if it were a phaser. It flies in the face of "real" SFB rules, but this is no different than allowing the Selty SC to damage PA panels in tournament. It's merely a unique solution to a unique non-historical issue (Vudar historically faced only Klingon, Hydran, Orion, and Jindo, just as the Selties were historically wiped out before the Andro invasion)


Troy:

The Klink can bring a P1 AND 2 P2 AND a P3.

Though I agree no one ever wants to blow a P1 on a seeking weapon, they at least have that choice and often times its preferable to ending up spacedust.

I like the idea of allowing the IPG to affect plasma. It fixes the problem that Vudar are down self-defense weapons in the plasma arena while not providing them extra tools against non-plasma fighters.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:41 pm: Edit

I would be aggreeable to a Tournament only (or even global change) rule allowing the IPG to damage plasma. Even a simple 1:1 power:damage ratio would not be unbalancing (how often will it hit multiple plasmas?). It would simply require a removal of the "non-plasma" text in (G36.33).

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 12:15 am: Edit

One more thing. I'm not as familiar witht he other ships, but the Gorn numbers you listed are for a target two hexes away. at 1-hex range I'll always have at least 5 ph-1 and a ph-3. Centerlined (front or back) I'll have 6 and 2, but that's











as good as it gets.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 11:08 am: Edit

OK...I am not an expert on the Vudar. (As in, I looked at the SSD for the firs time 30 seconds ago), but here are my thoughts...

"Apart from FA, the greatest phaser threat you can put on a plasma is a 1P1+P3, which makes it very hard take any approach apart from nose-diving the plasma or bolting. " Unless the Vudar has some seriously strange arc restrictions, I see 2p2, 1p1, and a p3 facing RA on both L and R. I can't envision many scnearios in which you wouldn't be able to get at least that many phasers in arc. (And, generally, plasma approaches on the #2 or #6 shields, with few exceptions)

"A wise plasma opponent (apart from the WE) could maintain a constant stream of plasma on the nose of the Vudar, resulting in either the Vudar not getting a shot or the plasma ship doing a constant 2:1 or better damage per pass. " Well, this is true against pretty much everyone, actually. Regardless, this has nothing to do with how many phasers are in arc, but the tremendous value and long legs of plasma.

My real question would be, how does the Vudar fare now against plasma, and how does it fare now against the rest of the field? (Hopefully people who know a heck of alot more about the Vudar will respond, since I admittedly know next to nothing)

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 12:06 pm: Edit

The Vudar would play a lot like the Fed, though with slightly weaker (12 pt) but more accurate heavy weapons. The 2 FX Ion Cannons do provide some flexibility options, but I would still see this as an uphill fight against plasma. The ability of the IPG to damage plasma (at least in the tournament) would help a bit (perhaps as much as 5%) as otherwise the system is all but useless against plasma ships (like an ADD).

By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 12:16 pm: Edit

Timothy,

I corrected it in a latter post. They can get 2P2+P3 in either RR or LR, the P1 is FA+L, so it doesn't hit the RA except on a spine.

On the L & R sides, you've got P1+P3 till you're range 1 at which point, you're either in the RA or FA arc.

The point of the second statement was that unlike most TCs that have weapons that can fire to left or right, the Vudar is pretty much a 1 arc ship with its phaser suite.







I've played a number of Vudar battles and they do ok. Granted, as there isn't a Vudar TC at the moment, I've been playing them in EC rich environments where they play duck and hit games. At their best, a Vudar can put out 18 points of ECM (for 4 impulses), which is an effective 3 shift versus a plasma torp, so there's a 50%/50% chance of it pulling full damage (33% of 75% damage, 17% of 50%). That change (over several torps), counters the fact that they don't generally get the chance that most other races do to toss some damage at it before it gets there.

It drops the value of envelopers against Vudar.

Without some reason to arm the IPG against a plasma target it drastically changes the power curve of the ship (adding movement most likely to counter the speed of the plasma).

Typically, they do well against Klingons (any disruptor race actually) and mixed bag against Hydrans, they're only two historical opponents. They fair poorly against PPDs as their EW advantage is diminished against any 2d6 weapon.


Michael. A playtest Vudar Tourney ship can be found in the Tournament Download section.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 01:28 pm: Edit

Michael: Well, I don't get it. On shields #6, #1, and #2 you are saying the phaser defenses aren't bad, so I'll ignore those.

On shields #3 and #5 you got 1p1, 2p2, and 1p3. (4 total) On shield #4 you got 2p2, and 2p3. (4 total) I am not seeing in any way that this compares unfavorably with your examples. (However, a quick glance at your examples tells me they aren't right either, though)

Regardless, defensive phasers mean precious little against plasma ships anyway. I mean, tossing a p3 on either side to give it 5 phasers in every arc, and subtracting a whopping 1-2 points from the warhead strength will basically never have an impact on any game anyway. What it will do is make the ship alot stronger against everyone. (And, I find it vanishing unlikely that the phasers will never be used for anything whatsoever except plasma defense)

By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 03:15 pm: Edit

Timothy,

I agree that adding a phaser 3 offers too much support for non-plasma opponents. If you'll read the exchange prior with Mr. Latta, you'll see it ran down the lines of allowing the burst mode to be effective against plasma.







Andy,

I'd seen the playtest ship, what I had meant by my post was that I haven't played any tournament games with it. I don't many people who are wanting to play tournaments with playtest ships.


Michael. It is not challenging to gain approval for a small number of playtest ships to be used in a tournament, provided good playtest reports are returned.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 05:21 pm: Edit

I would have to agree that the Vudar has poor phaser coverage outside the FA.

Here's a table, comparing the average number of phasers that bear into each hex at ranges 1, 2 and 4, for the Vudar and the Fed. I am counting each p-1 as 1 point, each p-2 as 0.75 points, each p-3 as 0.5 points.

Range Fed Vudar 1 6.7 4.8 2 6.2 4.0 4 5.8 3.7

While the Vudar does have the IPG and 2 more power, the Fed's phaser suite is 50% better. (And note that in any side-by-side power and weapons comparison, the Fed will come out looking inferior to most tourney ships.)


The Vudar also has 2 FX heavy weapons and a system that reduces the need for drone defense weapons.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 12:29 am: Edit

I wouldn't argue that the Vudar is weak, overall. I was just trying to make the point that, in terms of phasers for seeking weapon defense, the Vudar is one of the weaker ships, and needs something to make up for having its IPGs reduced from 2 to 1 and the ECM benefit eliminated.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 08:13 pm: Edit

Tried a game vs the Vudar in my Gorn today:

T1: Closed on the middle of the map. Launched 2 S torps. He got to R8, fired, hit with one OL IC but rolled high on phasers for 28 on my #6. He turns and runs, I HET to pursue.

T2: He moves 31 all turn, I chase at high speeds. My plasma hits his #4 for 15











damage and I chase, eventually getting a R4 centerline on his #3, doing 11 in with 6xP1 and 2xF bolt, hitting nothing important. He runs and I launch an S to chase him off, ending at about R8.

T3: He HETs into R8 and fires 4 OL IC and 4 P1s (I didn't think he could have 4 loaded ICs while he went 31 all turn and was surprised). He hits with 3 ICs and rolls up on his phasers for about 20 in. The plasma hits for 11 after he uses his IPG on it (we were playing with the IPG doing phaser damage to the plasma as per a discussion above--it seems reasonable to be able to spend 8 power to do 4 damage to a plasma, and gives it something to use it for against plasma ships). He fires his last two P1s, again, rolling real well, stripping off more weapons and power as I leave. He drastically slows down as I keep my speed up and turn around.

T4: He moves speed 4 as I close at speed 12-17. He speeds up to 6 to get a R8 shot on my 2 box #6, fires 4 P1s, rolls up again, and does another 5 internals. Next impulse, he fires 2 more P1s and a P2, doing another 9 internals at R8. I throw out the white flag.

Not real conclusive--his crazy phaser dice made a mess of me, but his ICs were pretty average (4 of 8 at R8, which is slightly below average, as the hit 58% of the time at R8). I was completely surprised that he could arm all 4 ICs *and* move speed 31 all turn (31 move, 4 for housekeeping, 8 to arm the ICs = 43 power. Needs 3 batteries, but if if he starts the turn with them armed, he can pull it off and still have a couple points left for weasels or something). I should have appropached the game as if he were a Fed (i.e. deny range 8 on T1 with an enveloper), but didn't realize that when we started.

Letting the IPG do phaser damage vs plasma seems reasonable, as again, it has to spend 8 power to knock 4 damage off a plasma (well, 4 of each plasma if you launch them together). But with the 6xFA P1s, photons that hit more often than photons, and the ton of power, it probably doesn't need the IPG tweak.

-Peter

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, September 03, 2006 - 08:15 pm: Edit

Andy wrote: >>I was just trying to make the point that, in terms of phasers for seeking weapon defense, the Vudar is one of the weaker ships, and needs something to make up for having its IPGs reduced from 2 to 1 and the ECM benefit eliminated.>>

Oh. It only has 1 IPG? The SSD on SFBOL still has 2 IPGs.

Yeah, letting the IPG do phaser damage to plasmas is certainly useful for the Vudar (as letting the IPG do something against plasma is defenitely better than it



doing nothing against plasma), but it probably doesn't really need the help--the strong heavy weapons and good power curve make it not that bad vs Plasma, likely.

-Peter

By Grant Strong (Phoenix) on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 04:06 pm: Edit

Would another option be to use the Vudar CWL as the tourny ship, and to allow closer to normal use of the IPG to keep the Vudar "flavor"?

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 06:47 pm: Edit

I think the flaw with the Vudar IPG is that allowing it to provide an EW shift is likely to result in a ship that is nigh unbeatable, where if you remove the EW shift, the IPGs aren't real useful.

Difficult to bridge that problem.

-Peter

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 07:14 pm: Edit

I don't think the EW shift is that bad. Right now it's more a problem that people have figured out how to use it effectively but have not figured out the best ways to counter it. The system has some serious limitations - if you want to get a big shift, you can't do it for very many impulses. IPGs are also fairly power hungry, although the capacitor does make up for that.

Without EW from the IPG, the Vudar has a fundamental problem in that it does not have anything to influence its opponent's movment. There's nothing, for example, that prevents opponents from turtling against it. It basically becomes a Seltorian with better heavy weapon crunch but worse phasers. Its tactics become pretty boring.

The EW shift forces opponents to maneuver and do more to control the tempo of the engagement. Yes, it makes the ship tough. But more importantly, it makes the ship interesting. I think we should be looking at balancing it with the EW option.


Andy wrote: >>I don't think the EW shift is that bad. Right now it's more a problem that people have figured out how to use it effectively but have not figured out the best ways to counter it. The system has some serious limitations - if you want to get a big shift, you can't do it for very many impulses. IPGs are also fairly power hungry, although the capacitor does make up for that. >>

The problem, really, is the combo of the IPG and the beneficial jump to hit for the ICs at R5 that no other heavy weapon in the tournament gets. The Vudar can








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close to R5, blast its opponent pretty severely when everyone else's HWs still have a less optimal shot, and then (if it can throw up the EW shift from the IPGs) run for 8 impulses with a shift of -2 or for 16 impulses with a shift of -1. As the Vudar also can move pretty fast (faster than pretty much any other DF ship other than the Selt), it is perfectly possible to shoot at R5, do a lot of damage, HET, throw up an EW shift, and run for the rest of the turn avoiding serious repraisal. If it can put up an EW shift, that is.

>>Without EW from the IPG, the Vudar has a fundamental problem in that it does not have anything to influence its opponent's movment. There's nothing, for example, that prevents opponents from turtling against it. It basically becomes a Seltorian with better heavy weapon crunch but worse phasers. Its tactics become pretty boring.>>

With the EW shift, it is still the same thing--it can't influence manuver at all (just like the Selt. And the Fed.), but it can become absurdly immune to damage.

>>The EW shift forces opponents to maneuver and do more to control the tempo of the engagement. Yes, it makes the ship tough. But more importantly, it makes the ship interesting. I think we should be looking at balancing it with the EW option.>>

This may be the case, if the ship need to be sanctioned. But I suspect that it will be very difficult to balance with an EW effect from the IPG, and might have to do something like start from a CW hull like Grant suggested if you are going to try and make the EW shift work.

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 08:49 pm: Edit

Andy Vancil. As a playtester for the Vudar I can feel confident stating that if you gave the IPG its full EW benefits in the Tournament that it would make the 10-Phaser Selt seem like a footnote in Overpowered Tournament ships. A 3-shift for 4 impulses or 2-shift for 2 impulses is gamebreaking. The effect is powerful enough when the opponent can apply its own powered EW, without that ability...

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 12:56 am: Edit

Peter -

With the EW shift, the Vudar can influence maneuver. You described how it could go into range 5 (where its weapons are better than everyone else's) and escape without damage. Thus, to combat the Vudar, one must maneuver to avoid this exchange - arrange a 6-4 jump, not give the Vudar 16 impulses of free running, etc. The fact that the Vudar can do this will influence your maneuver.





Without the shift, it becomes a straight slugfest. The timing of the Vudar's shot, the position on the board, the speed of the Vudar's opponent, the speed of the Vudar, all become irrelevent in terms of what the Vudar can do. It becomes just a matter of range and the die roll.

Andy P - I playtested the Vudar, too, primarily in battles where we weren't using powered EW but were allowing the Vudar EW for the IPG. I don't think they were unbeatable at their rated BPV. I think they are quite balanced. At 145 BPV, the Vudar CA is about the same as the other ships the tournament cruisers are based on. I fail to see how the tournament setting suddenly makes them unbeatable.

Again, I'll grant that just bringing in a straight Vudar CA as the tournament ship may be a little too powerful. But I think it could be balanced without taking away its most interesting combat capability.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 09:21 am: Edit

Please someone explain how this IPG is supposed to work, presuming the full EW effect thing.

From what I read Andy P say, the ship can put up an EW shift that cannot be countered...is that right? Does this EW shift also effect the Vudar while it is up? How does this bother plasma?

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 10:58 am: Edit

Tim. 3 points of natural EW, ala Erratic Maneuvers (effects both Vudar and opponents firing at Vudar) for 4 impulses PER point of power applied (i.e., more power extends range or strength).

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 11:16 am: Edit

Also note that an IPG holds a maximum of 4 power in its capacitor, so you could do 16 impulses of -1 shift, 8 impulses of -2 shift, or 4 impulses of -3 shift. Assuming, of course, you are using all the points for jamming and not seeking weapon defense.

In SW defense mode, it does 1 point of damage to each drone or shuttle within 2 hexes for each point of power you spend.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 11:38 am: Edit

Is the effect "cancellable", or once you power it for 8 imps at -2, is that the way it's gonna be? Is it useable every turn, or is it a every other turn thing, or what? Do you have to use all the power in the cap when used? (Like the webcaster)

As for the SW defense mode.....that actually seems comically good against drone using ships. Does it occur before fire? (As in, you IPG a type IV and a type I for 4 points, and then you get to see which one to shoot at)









Regardless, the fact the EW shift also effects the Vudar ship makes this much more bearable. (Not like it is that ridiculous ECM drone or something) The Vudar weapons aren't THAT powerful, but possibly the shift makes it too good.

I am not seeing why plasma is in such trouble if it has the full EW capability. I mean, Kzins and Wyn Auxes look bad to me from the SW defense, and the Selt and Fed seem to get the biggest shaft from the possible EW shift. What is the big deal with plasma? (Meaning, what am I missing?)

By James Mcmurray (Jmcmurra) on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 12:14 pm: Edit

It's not that plasma gets hosed by the EW shift. Rather the issue is that without the EW shift the Vudar have little defense against plasmas. Unfortunately,m with the EW shift their play against the direct fire races is (apparently) too good.

What about letting them be used as seeking weapon only EW? So they could get a miss chance from plasmas but wouldn't hurt the Fed's photons?

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 12:54 pm: Edit

Tim. With a 3 shift, the Vudar has a 50% chance of only taking 50% damage from plasma. Would you want to launch an EPT R and have your opponent charge through it, firing no weapons, but taking only 50 damage from it?

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Andy P: Ok...this makes some sense why this appeared to be too good then.

However, I guess the weirdness of the IPG is the allure of the ship. I mean, a 50% chance of taking half damage is still a pretty weak option. I presume if 2 plasmas impact simul, they each have to 'roll' to see how much damage they do? (What I'm getting at, is that you're likely taking way too much damage anyway if even half strength plasmas are wailing on you)

I don't like the fact that it will be so easy to determine when you need to have the 3 shift. I mean, a 4 imp spread doesn't sound like much, but if you can't time for the plasma to impact then, you pretty much are the worst player on planet anyway. However, I don't see possibility of a half strength plasma impact as the biggest prob, but the fact the ship will have up to 3 more imps to get a different shield facing the enemy. (So the plasma ship can't get effective phaser on the same shield as what the plasma impacted)

Again, though, lets assume the weirdness and the defensive capability of the Vudar IPG is the allure of playing it. Let it retain the full capability of the IPG, and remove phaser1's and/or Heavy Weapons (And maybe some APR) to compensate.

Comparing the Fed and the Vudar both against plasma, completely discounting







the IPG(s), makes them seem relatively close to me. The Fed has slightly higher firepower, and the Vudar has better arcs and speed. Comparing the Fed and Vudar against drone ships, (in which the Fed has a real problem), the Vudar looks pretty dang smurfy to me.

It would seem to me that some weapons would have to be removed if the goal is to keep the defensive power of the Vudar in play.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 01:22 pm: Edit

I don't know how that would play out. On a 1-3, you take 100. On a 4-5 you take 50. On a 6 you take 25. IF you roll well, and IF your TKE opponent was not expecting you to run through the plasma, rolling a 6 would mean a definite advantage, if not victory.

But if I'm a TKE facing a Vudar, I'm wary of that possibility, and am ready to either cloak or run.

If I'm a Vudar facing an EPT-R, do I run through it and hope for the best with the shift? Probably not, unless I have no other option. If I take full damage, I'm in trouble. I'm looking at running through a couple of follow-up F's at full strength (or turning off, in which case I took 100 damage and got nothing), plus phasers. I don't have enough crunch to put the TKE away on one battle pass, and now I've got internal damage and not much shielding left.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 01:34 pm: Edit

That's what I found with the Vudar - even the threat of the IPG forced opponents to play differently. When you have a system that can do that, and have heavy weapons more accurate than and almost as crunchy as photons, it puts you in a pretty advantaged position.

Are you going to go for the hit with plasma then fire through down shield tactic against the Vudar?

Are you going to try for an anchor, knowing you might not make the lock-on roll?

Are you going to fire through the active shift, hoping he does so as well and doesn't wait and nail you through no shift?

..the list goes on and, while opponents are mofifying their tactics to account for the IPG, the Vudar is meanwhile, blasting away with impunity.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 01:38 pm: Edit

Vudar vs Fed.

The IC has better to-hit, but less damage, than an overload photon. Looking at expected damage, a photon does more at every range except 5. (At range 5, the advantage of the IC is very slight.) Of course, the photon takes 2 more power,







and the Fed TCC has 2 less power than the Vudar.

In many ways, the Vudar looks like a better ship than the Fed. OTOH, I think the Fed looks terrible in just about any head-to-head comparison against any other tourney cruiser. It's hard for me to see how it wins, other than by occasionally jackpotting.

For example, the Lyran (widely considered a mediocre TCC), compared to the Fed, has an equivalent phaser suite, better turn mode, 2 more power, and two ESGs. The Fed is expected to make up for that with the crunch power of the photons versus disruptors, even though the phtons are less accurate.

So yes, the Vudar looks strong compared with the Fed, but I think that comparison is deceiving. Compare the Vudar to the Lyran, and you have the same power, same turn mode, worse phasers and worse phaser arcs on the Vudar, and 2 ESGs versus 1 IPG. The ICs have better crunch, but much lower expected damage output over the course of 2 turns. The Vudar doesn't look so tough.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 03:48 pm: Edit

Don't forget about the requirement to use Ionized energy for loading IC's and IPG's. Having to pay the Ionization cost will slow it down a bit. Not to mention the loss of any impulse engines, will very seriously impact the ship. I thought it looked a little on the weak side, but haven't actually played it.


Andy (Vancil): I definitely agree with your IPG vs. Plasm assessment. The only time you charge in on a 50/50 shot is when you've got nothing to lose. It's way to random to work as a standard tactic.

Andy (Palmer): Having a ship that people have to change tactics for is not a bad thing. The Vudar is not blasting away with impunity, because he also has to time his tactics around the IPG.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 04:49 pm: Edit

Andy wrote: >>With the EW shift, the Vudar can influence maneuver. You described how it could go into range 5 (where its weapons are better than everyone else's) and escape without damage. Thus, to combat the Vudar, one must maneuver to avoid this exchange - arrange a 6-4 jump, not give the Vudar 16 impulses of free running, etc. The fact that the Vudar can do this will influence your maneuver. >>

Sure, but still, it is a pretty limited impact on how someone manuvers--if they really want to get to range 1, they'll get to range 1.

>>Without the shift, it becomes a straight slugfest. The timing of the Vudar's shot, the position on the board, the speed of the Vudar's opponent, the speed of






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the Vudar, all become irrelevent in terms of what the Vudar can do. It becomes just a matter of range and the die roll.>>

But that is really what happens with the IPG EW bonus--it is just a matter of range and rolling dice. Although sometimes, the dice rolling is really bad due to the EW :-)

In my experience playtesting the Vudar (years and years ago) in the tournament environment but using the EW shift, the ship was incredibly over powered. My recent experience with the ship, it seemed to work just like the Fed, but better (better power curve, higher operational speeds, a couple FX torps, an IPG for added drone defense, better to hit on the heavy weapons). If you throw in the EW, yeah, it becomes more interesting, but it also becomes way more difficult to balance.

I'm not completely opposed to some sort of EW shift for the ship being available (maybe a max of -1 or something), but it would require an awful lot of testing to see what makes it balance out.

-Peter


Brian wrote: >>Don't forget about the requirement to use Ionized energy for loading IC's and IPG's. Having to pay the Ionization cost will slow it down a bit. Not to mention the loss of any impulse engines, will very seriously impact the ship. I thought it looked a little on the weak side, but haven't actually played it.>>

I don't know that it has that much of an impact, really.

On the first turn, the ship has to pay:

4 for houskeeping 4 to hold 4 standard ICs 8, of which 4 is impulse, to overload the 4 ICs

Leaving 24 (40 total power) for movement and whatever. Which is a lot better than the Fed (who is left with 20 power after overloading everything on T1).

When reloading, it can fully arm its 4 ICs and turn on the ship and still have 28 power left over on a run turn; it runs into some trouble on turn 2 of reloading as it needs 8 impulse power to overload the ICs (and another 4 to rearm the IPG), which simply costs the 1 point of conversion power to fix, so on the second turn of arming, it is going to be down 1 power (to turn all energy into impulse power as needed, effectively).



So while the ion energy issue is not completely insignificant, it isn't that big of a deal, especially as the ship has 40 power to start with, and in the worst case situation, it has to spend 1 power to convert everything. But at least on T1, it is gonna do just fine.

-Peter


What if each segment of the pulse was only worth 1 natural ECM? You'd be able to keep up a shift of 1 as long, but would have to burn your entire wad to get a shift of 2 and it would only last for 4 impulses. An Orion could still get a shift of 2 twice if they didn't double their engines, but they'd have a really hard time refilling those ionized capacitors.


I suspect that if the Vudar is going to try out an EW shift from the IPG, it probably needs to start at a maximum shift of 1 and go from there.

-Peter

By Grant Strong (Phoenix) on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 09:44 pm: Edit

That sounds pretty resonable to me, it gives the IPG a "use" vs. plasma, andros, and Lyran/LDR. I also don't see giving a 1 shift against the Fed for 16 impulses being a huge deal(Since it effects the Vudar as well, granted -1 effects Photons alot more then ICs)

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 08:26 am: Edit

There is actually a rule for what effect an IPG has in a non-EW environment. Of course, my rules are downstairs and I'm too lazy to go look it up, but I know it's in there.

By James Mcmurray (Jmcmurra) on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 08:26 am: Edit

Basing the test too much on its effect vs. the Feds is probably not a good idea. The Vudar should be judged on their performance in general, not against a specific race. There are other race pairings that are hard fights, if Vudar vs. Federation is one of those that's ok.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 09:38 am: Edit

James wrote: >>Basing the test too much on its effect vs. the Feds is probably not a good idea. The Vudar should be judged on their performance in general, not against a specific race. There are other race pairings that are hard fights, if Vudar vs. Federation is one of those that's ok.>>

The reason folks keep bringing up the Fed (well, at least the reason I'm bringing up the Fed) is not as an example of how the Vudar will do *vs* the Fed, but how it will do *compared* to the Fed--the ships are very similar (high crunch power,













two turn arming weapons, no seeking weapons, having to run on the first turn of arming after firing, etc), and as such, likely should be pretty comperable.

If the Vudar is just like the Fed, but better, that isn't good. If the Vudar is just like the Fed, but worse, that is also not good. So the Vudar kinda needs to be about as good as the Fed to be viable. So seeing how it works compared to the Fed seems like a reasonable thing to look at.

-Peter

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 11:43 am: Edit

Except that the Fed sucks. :-)

Anyway, the Vudar may have some similarities to the Fed, but there is a crucial difference - 48 max damage from ICs, 64 from photons. That may not sound like a big difference, but it basically means 10 less power on the ship that got hit by photons, and can be the difference between being able to survive the reload turn after a close-range battle pass, or not. That crunch factor is big.

You also can't discount the difference in phasers. Outside the FA, the Vudar is very weak. If the Fed is closing through a few seekers, it can bring 2-360 p-3s and the 2 offside p-1s to bear. The Vudar either uses offensive phasers for SW defense, or it uses the IPG and loses the EW benefit we've been discussing.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 12:44 pm: Edit

Andy Vancil. Maximum Photon damage is higher, but average IC damage is higher. Unless R2 or less, the Vudar will usually end up ahead (and who WILLINGLY goes range 2 to a Fed? ).

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 03:55 pm: Edit

Andy wrote: >>Except that the Fed sucks. :-) >>

Well, I wouldn't go that far. It is certainly very middle of the pack. And making a ship that is close enough to the Fed as the Vudar is, yet just better, is not good for the game. So the Vudar needs to be pretty much comperable to the Fed (in terms of overall effectivness), as they are so similar.

>>Anyway, the Vudar may have some similarities to the Fed, but there is a crucial difference - 48 max damage from ICs, 64 from photons.>>

Sure. But as Andy points out, the expected damage is very similar everywhere outside of range 1 (where photons do better) and range 5 (where ICs do better).

Yes, the Vudar is kind of different than the Fed, and that is where the balance needs to be worked out--the Vudar has less crunch power and worse phaser arcs. But more power and better drone defense. And so on. So the ships can be







different in some ways while still being comperable.

-Peter

By James Mcmurray (Jmcmurra) on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 04:03 pm: Edit

If the fed is middle of the pack, why bother maing someone like them? Instead make the Vudar upper middle tier. Don't hamstring them because they happen to look similar to another race.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 06:12 pm: Edit

Andy P - The average IC damage is most certainly NOT higher than that of photons. Here is a comparison, for reference:

Range 4 OL Phot 4 OL IC 0-1 64 44 2 53 40 3 43 40 4 43 35 5 32 35 6-8 32 28

But of course, the weapons will not do average damage. It's the swing that counts.

Peter - The Fed is in the middle of the pack for one reason, and one reason only: The crunch of the photon. Do a side-by-side comparison of power, weapons, turn mode, etc., of the Fed versus any other tourney ship, and it will come up short. The ONE thing it has is the photon crunch. Reduce that even a little, and you get a ship at the bottom of the pack, unless you make up for it in some other way.


James wrote: >>If the fed is middle of the pack, why bother maing someone like them? >>

There is no reason to make someone like them. I don't think the tournament needs a Vudar TC. But then, I also don't think the tournament needs a TKR, a TKE, and LDR, or a Shark. But as other folks seem to like the variation ships, we are probably going to get a Vudar.

And there *needs* to be a middle of the pack--most of the tournament ships are middle of the pack, and the Fed is in there with the Gorn, Lyran, Neo, TKR,







Hydran, etc. If all of the middle of the pack ships stop being middle of the pack, that means they were drastically upgraded, which results in a silly arms race.

>>Instead make the Vudar upper middle tier. Don't hamstring them because they happen to look similar to another race.>>

If you make the Vudar just better than the Fed, the Fed becomes pointless to play, as the ship is already so similar. I don't think it is a good idea to obsolete one of the most bread and butter ships in the game.

-Peter


Andy wrote: >>Peter - The Fed is in the middle of the pack for one reason, and one reason only: The crunch of the photon. Do a side-by-side comparison of power, weapons, turn mode, etc., of the Fed versus any other tourney ship, and it will come up short. The ONE thing it has is the photon crunch. Reduce that even a little, and you get a ship at the bottom of the pack, unless you make up for it in some other way.>>

Luckily, the Vudar does that. It loses a bit of crunch power, but gains more power, better power curve, better turn mode, a pair of FX heavy weapons, and good drone defense, all of which easily make up for the slightly lower crunch power already. If you add in the EW shift possibilities, even only a shift of 1, the ship is going to rocket far past the Fed, in terms of overall effectivness. As the ship is so similar in so many ways, you end up with a Fed that is just better than the current Fed.

Currently, I suspect that the Vudar (even with only 1 IPG and no EW shift) is perfectly viable. If you add the EW shift, it becomes wildly good, such that it'll probably need a downgrading to balance it out.

-Peter

By James Mcmurray (Jmcmurra) on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 10:05 pm: Edit

Quote:

If you make the Vudar just better than the Fed, the Fed becomes pointless to play, as the ship is already so similar. I don't think it is a good idea to obsolete one of the most bread and butter ships in the game.





Then let the Vudar be good and upgrade the Fed slightly if necessary. But disallowing the EW portion of the IPG basically makes the Vudar just another crunch race. The IPG is the system that defines who the Vudar are as a tactical race. Vudar without IPGs are like Orions without option mounts.

Also, a shift of 1 is not a huge factor against most opponents. It's a problem for the Fed only because his weapons are already unreliable in most sitations. The Vudar should not be punished because photons can't hit.

If necesary, lower the Vudar crunch power to compensate for the possible shift of 1. Perhaps drop their power a bit and get rid of one of the heavy weapons? It makes for a ship that can no longer just cruise into close range and trade alphas, because even with that shift of two if you're burning full blast the opponent may still out damage you with some good rolls.

Note, this is all conjecture. I've played the Vudar, but never in an environment where the other side couldn't generate EW, and certainly not in an environment where each pulse of the IPG was only worth +1 ECM.

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 06:00 am: Edit

Even without the EW shift I prefer the current Vudar to the Fed. Being able to handle a scatterpack cheaply is a big edge all by itself.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 09:07 am: Edit

James wrote: >>Then let the Vudar be good and upgrade the Fed slightly if necessary. But disallowing the EW portion of the IPG basically makes the Vudar just another crunch race.>>

True. But if it is unworkable in the tournament environment (which may or may not be the case), I'd prefer just to leave it out than let it in and have it be too good.

>> The IPG is the system that defines who the Vudar are as a tactical race. Vudar without IPGs are like Orions without option mounts.>>

Or, you could say that the Vudar without the EW shift from the IPGs is like the Orions without their stealth shift. Oh, wait a second...

>>Also, a shift of 1 is not a huge factor against most opponents. It's a problem for the Fed only because his weapons are already unreliable in most sitations. The Vudar should not be punished because photons can't hit.>>

A shift of one is horrible for everyone, except, maybe, the Hydran. Again, the jump to 8's to hit at R5 makes firing at 5 and then throwing out EW a *huge*




http://www.starfleetgames.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-profile.cgi?action=display_profile&profile=warlock-public

tactic for the Vudar that is going to mangle most opponents that, ya know, try to shoot it, Photons or no.

>>If necesary, lower the Vudar crunch power to compensate for the possible shift of 1.>>

I'm pretty certain that is what I've been saying all along. If you wanna have the Vudar get an EW shift, start at a maximum of 1, make the ship smaller (maybe like a CW hull, as Grant suggested) and go from there. I don't think there is a way to make the current CA hull viable with an EW shift unless you pull out a significant chunk of firepower.

>>Note, this is all conjecture. I've played the Vudar, but never in an environment where the other side couldn't generate EW, and certainly not in an environment where each pulse of the IPG was only worth +1 ECM.>>

When the Vudar first hit the scene, we played it a lot in the tournament environment with the full EW rules for the IPG, and it was a total nightmare against pretty much everyone.

-Peter


Andrew wrote: >>Even without the EW shift I prefer the current Vudar to the Fed. Being able to handle a scatterpack cheaply is a big edge all by itself.>>

Agreed. I think currently, the Vudar, even without the EW, is pretty good (at least as good as the Selt, and the Selt is better than most people think). Being able to blow up a bunch of drones at once, even if it is only a couple of them, is huge. Against plasma ships, the IPG pulse cripples shuttles (making the Gorn dual SS attack much less effective) and helps kill Hydran fighters. Not bad at all, really.

The ship is fast and hard hitting and takes damage pretty well (8 forward and 8 aft hull). After rereading the Vudar rules last night, the impulse power issue is even less significant than I originally thought, as the IPGs and ICs can be armed with impulse *or* APR power (of which the ship starts with 10), so the 1 power ionization tax really only ever becomes important pretty late in the game.

-Peter

By James Mcmurray (Jmcmurra) on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 09:44 am: Edit

Quote:

Or, you could say that the Vudar without the EW shift from the IPGs is





like the Orions without their stealth shift. Oh, wait a second...

You could say that, but it would be a poor comparison. The stealth shift is not the defining characteristic of the Orions, doubled engines and option mounts are. The IPG is the defining characteristic of the Vudar.

Quote:

A shift of one is horrible for everyone, except, maybe, the Hydran. Again, the jump to 8's to hit at R5 makes firing at 5 and then throwing out EW a *huge* tactic for the Vudar that is going to mangle most opponents that, ya know, try to shoot it, Photons or no.

All this means is that new tactics must develope. You can always shoot before range 5 and hope to know out some weaponms or the IPG. Or you could maneuver to try and force a jump from 6 to 4 instead of 6 to 5. The Vudar will require different tactics, that much is plain. How powerful a shift of 1 is depends on playtest data.

\quote {When the Vudar first hit the scene, we played it a lot in the tournament environment with the full EW rules for the IPG, and it was a total nightmare against pretty much everyone. } I'm guessing this didn't take a lot of play to realize, since it seems fairly obvious that if one side can generate a lot of EW and the other can't, the EW-less guy is screwed.

I'm not saying that the Vudar must be powerful, I'm saying that if a way to make it tourney playable with the IPG in jamming mode is available it should be taken, because the IGP is what makes the Vudar unique. On paper at least, each pulse being worth 1 ECM looks like it could be doable, perhaps requiring further changes to compensate (such as dropping a weapon or two or changing the hull).


James wrote: >>You could say that, but it would be a poor comparison. The stealth shift is not the defining characteristic of the Orions, doubled engines and option mounts are. The IPG is the defining characteristic of the Vudar.>>

Others would argue that the stealth bonus is as much a "defining characteristic" of the Orion as the Vudar EW shift is. There really isn't anything that defines a "defining characteristic", and as such, probably isn't something that need to be worried about. I agree that the IPG EW is what makes the Vudar interesting. But if it proves to be unworkable in the tournament environment, it needs to go.



>>All this means is that new tactics must develope. You can always shoot before range 5 and hope to know out some weaponms or the IPG. Or you could maneuver to try and force a jump from 6 to 4 instead of 6 to 5. The Vudar will require different tactics, that much is plain. How powerful a shift of 1 is depends on playtest data.>>

Sure. Any new situation requires new tactics to develop. The issue is if the new situation is too powerful. I mean, like, you could give the Kzinti 4 more drone racks, which would also require the development of new tactics. But it doesn't mean that it is a good idea to give the Kzinti 4 more drone racks.

Again, I'm not saying that the EW shift is necessarily completely unworkable in the tournament environment (although it certainly might be). But the *current* Vudar is going to be too good if it gets an EW shift from the IPG. If you want the EW shift, the ship needs to be changed and then testing needs to start from there.

>>I'm not saying that the Vudar must be powerful, I'm saying that if a way to make it tourney playable with the IPG in jamming mode is available it should be taken, because the IGP is what makes the Vudar unique.>>

Sure. I think it is pretty clear that I agree with you on this point. But that being said, if the EW shift *isn't* really doable, I don't think it is a good idea to force things into a box they don't fit into.

-Peter


Quote:

Others would argue that the stealth bonus is as much a "defining characteristic" of the Orion as the Vudar EW shift is.

While it is true that you can find people to argue almost anything, I'd like to see the people who, when asked the question "Of the things that seperate the Orions from the other races: doubled engines, option mounts, and some ships getting stealth EW bonus, which do you consider the defining characteristic of the race", would say "oh definitely the stealth EW. The other things are nifty, but it's that EW that truly makes them unique." I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a single person that would respond that way without some sort of prodding. Ask people "what makes the Vudar unique" and you'll get the IPG answer pretty much across the board.



Quote:

I mean, like, you could give the Kzinti 4 more drone racks, which would also require the development of new tactics. But it doesn't mean that it is a good idea to give the Kzinti 4 more drone racks.

You're absolutely right, but I don't see anyone trying to give the Kzinti 4 new drone racks. Nice red herring though. Or is it a straw man?

Quote:

Vudar is going to be too good if it gets an EW shift from the IPG.

How many people have playtested the current Vudar ship using +1 ECM per pulse rules? I'm willing to bet the answer is 0. Therefor your statement is pure conjencture. It might be right, but it might be wrong. In any case though, you are correct in that playtesting needs to occur.

Quote:

But that being said, if the EW shift *isn't* really doable, I don't think it is a good idea to force things into a box they don't fit into.

I agree. But I'm willing to bet that a ship layout can be found which would make the EW Shift IPG (at +1 ECM per pulse) viable.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 11:45 am: Edit

Do we really need to have Paul Scott win the hat a couple more years in a row to prove a ship is broken? Give him a Vudar capable of generating EW shifts and he will do just that.

The point of this is that the EW shift may be workable, for average players, but put it in the hands of one of the top 3-5 tourney players, and they'll walk away with it.


Put anything at or above average power level for a ship in the hands of one of the top players and they'll generally walk away with it. That's the nature of the top players. I don't know what ship Paul Scott flew to win, but if your theory is to be followed we need to hit that ship with a nerf bat because a top player walked away with a win in it.





Have you playtested even a single game with an IPG at +1 ECM per pulse?


James wrote: >>Ask people "what makes the Vudar unique" and you'll get the IPG answer pretty much across the board.>>

Sure. But that isn't really relevant to the actual discussion at hand--if the Vudar can work with a EW shift, then it can work and probably should. If it can't, then it isn't a good idea to try. I'm not saying one or the other is an abolute. But the idea that the Vudar *must* get an EW shift to be worth playing is one that I don't think is necessarily true.

>>You're absolutely right, but I don't see anyone trying to give the Kzinti 4 new drone racks. Nice red herring though. Or is it a straw man? >>

Just as an aside, it is neither a red herring nor a straw man. I'm not actually suggesting that giving the Kzinti 4 extra drone racks is a good idea, nor am I arguing that anyone else is suggesting giving the Kzinti 4 extra drone racks (one of which would need to be true for the statement to be either a red herring or a straw man).

It is just a parallel example to giving the Vudar an EW shift--giving it full EW shifts is, I think clearly, akin to giving the Kzinti 4 more drone racks--absolutely insane. But again, it is certainly possible that the ship might be workable with a maximum 1 EW shift (which is not akin to giving the Kzinti 4 more drone racks).

>>How many people have playtested the current Vudar ship using +1 ECM per pulse rules? I'm willing to bet the answer is 0.>>

I played whatever the previous Vudar playtest TC was (which as remarkably similar to the current one--maybe it was just the Vudar CC or CA or something) in the tournament environment using the standard IPG EW rules. A lot. It was murderous.

>>I agree. But I'm willing to bet that a ship layout can be found which would make the EW Shift IPG (at +1 ECM per pulse) viable.>>

Probaby. This being said, I don't necessarily agree that the Vudar *needs* the EW shift to be playable. Or worth playing.

-Peter

By James Mcmurray (Jmcmurra) on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 12:15 pm: Edit

It doesn't need the EZ IPG to be playable, but having it is vastly preferred to not





having it, because it helps them to maintain more of their racial identity. Without it they're like a Fed with better aim and a different anti-drone defense. with it they're a race with the ability to shape maneuvers in a way that no other race can.

Quote:

Just as an aside, it is neither a red herring nor a straw man.

Ah. Silly me. It was a flawed analogy, not a red herring or straw man. In any case though, since (as you yourself admit) it doesn't apply to the discussion of a +1 ECM Vudar, it was a pointless statement.

Quote:

I played whatever the previous Vudar playtest TC was (which as remarkably similar to the current one--maybe it was just the Vudar CC or CA or something) in the tournament environment using the standard IPG EW rules. A lot. It was murderous.

I bet it was. But that wasn't the question. Nobody is trying to say that full ECM should be allowed with the IPG. your (and others') playtesting proved that. That means it's time to move on from that and look at other testing of the +1 shift Vudar.

I think we've both said pretty much the same thing (Vudar at +1 shiftability is untested and might be possible). Anyhthing else that isn't actual playtest data is probably pointless.

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 01:26 pm: Edit

James. My point is that the top players can take a ship and develop the optimal tactic for playing it. The Andro won Captains 3 years in a row because an "unbeatable" tactic was developed; the ship, despite being downgraded each year, was finally nerfed to its current level of ineptitude. Most of the recent downgrades are because the top players developed unbeatable strategies with ships that most people didn't think were broken.

A 1 pt EW shift has been tried in the tournament before - the original Orion had its stealth modifier. It was quickly removed. I am extremely confident that those top players will take even the possible 1 EW shift IPG and break the ship, resulting in that capability being removed. I would prefer to spend the time balancing the EW-less Vudar (which still has unique flavor due to its weapon arcs,



Ion Cannons, and Ion Capacitor) than wasting time developing a balanced EW-capable Vudar only to have to throw it away and start from scratch.


The original orion and the Vudar are two seperate entities. I believe you're responding with too little knowledge. Unless someone is giving the Vudar doubled engines and option mounts, in which case the two scenarios are similar enough to base a ruling for the Vudar on.

Nobody is asking you to "waste" time doing anything. Please feel free to playtest whatever you want to playtest, or not playtest anything at all if that's what you'd prefer. :-)

Quick question: what is your position in regards to determining what tournament ships hit print? Are you a playtester, designer, or what? I can only hope you're not a designer, although it would give me another reason to not bother getting into the tournament scene to find out that the people in charge are as close minded as you seem to be on this issue.


James. I am not a designer or any other person of authority. I am however someone who has been in the tournament scene for 6-7 years now and have seen what small advantages the Uber-Aces have exploited for victory. I'm not closed minded; I am an advocate for playtesting of new Tourney ships and the adding of them to the tournement. I just know that if *I*, a B/B+ level Tourney player can envision exploits of the EW effects, that the A/A+ players will develop and master them with little effort. In that light, I would prefer if the playtesting efforts of the SFB Community as a whole focused on the current Vudar playtest ship as printed than going down what is in my mind, a futile gesture to try to balance an EW producing IPG.

Put it this way: different ships are going to be impacted by EW to differing levels. How will you create a Vudar ship that is balanced both against those ships majorly impacted by EW (Fed for example) and those barely impacted (TKR for example)? Those dynamics will, by necessity, result in a ship that has far too much of a swing in expected win/loss percentage. A ship that wins 80% of the time against half of the ships and only 20% against the other half is not a balanced ship.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 03:44 pm: Edit

There are many critical differences between the Orion stealth bonus and the Vudar IPG jamming:

1. The stealth bonus applies any time the Orion isn't doubling. The IPG jamming only applies when the IPG is in effect, a maximum of 16 impulses per turn

2. The stealth bonus does not need power to arm. The IPG does.







3. The stealth bonus is not destroyed by the first Drone hit the ship takes. A single-IPG Vudar would tend to lose the IPG quickly in many cases.

4. If the IPG is used for jamming, that takes away from the Vudar's ability to handle seeking weapons. The Vudar has a rather weak phaser suite.

5. Most importantly, IPG jamming affects the Vudar's weapons the same as its opponent's. If the Vudar wants to fire without a shift, its opponent can fire without a shift.

Overall, the IPG is a much different kettle of fish.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 05:04 pm: Edit

James wrote: >>Ah. Silly me. It was a flawed analogy, not a red herring or straw man.>>

If the analogy was "something wildly overpowered = something wildly overpowerd", which it was, it hardly strikes me as flawed. But ok.

>> In any case though, since (as you yourself admit) it doesn't apply to the discussion of a +1 ECM Vudar, it was a pointless statement. >>

If the +1 ECM Vudar is overpowered, then it certainly does.

>>I bet it was. But that wasn't the question. Nobody is trying to say that full ECM should be allowed with the IPG. your (and others') playtesting proved that. That means it's time to move on from that and look at other testing of the +1 shift Vudar.>>

Sure.

>>I think we've both said pretty much the same thing (Vudar at +1 shiftability is untested and might be possible). Anyhthing else that isn't actual playtest data is probably pointless.>>

Ok. Having played against the current Vudar, I can say with some certainty that taking the current ship and giving it even a +1 shift from the IPG is going to make it too good. So I'm perfectly happy to try out and see what happens with a +1 ECM shift IPG, but it really is going to need to be on a different ship than it currently is.

-Peter


James wrote:





>>Quick question: what is your position in regards to determining what tournament ships hit print? Are you a playtester, designer, or what?>>

Andy is in the same boat as me. We both play a lot of tournament SFB (although probably me more than him) and like talking about stuff on the BBS. Putting us in the same place as pretty much everyone else.

>> I can only hope you're not a designer, although it would give me another reason to not bother getting into the tournament scene to find out that the people in charge are as close minded as you seem to be on this issue.>>

I'm kind of confused by this. If you aren't involved in the tournament scene, why are you futzing about with the Vudar TC? What are you basing your understanding of the tournament environment on?

-Peter

By Grant Strong (Phoenix) on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 05:15 pm: Edit

In my opinion we need to make sure each main system on a ship has a probable use against each opponent, even the lowly ADD rack on the Klingon sees use in nearly every battle due to it mixes a type VI in for confusion purposes. From my point of view I don't call 1 IPG against Shuttles on non drone races a "probable" use.(only system I can think of without a probable use is an ADD in an option mount on a Orion/Wyn)

As for the Orion, it's already on a CW hull, only option to Keep 100% of Orion flavor would be to put it on a DW hull(In which case it would absolutely suck). I can imagine it was a pretty big decision whether to keep the Cloak or the Stealth bonus(with the Cloak winning as it's not as unbalancing)

Is it possible to have both a CWL and CA ship playtests going on? I'm unfamiliar with how ADB submits tournyment ships for playtest.


Andy Palmer: If the exploits are that simple, point them out and work to get them fixed. For those majorly impacted by it, I would expect them to learn new tactics and a balance to be found. For those not affected by it very much I wouldn't expect anything to be done. Every race has good and bad matchups.

For the specific Fed example, the chart andy Vancil posted shows there isn't as big a difference as there might seem, assuming the standard tactic of firing at range 5 after the IPG drops occurs. And of course, the Fed would be hard pressed to maneuiver so that there is no such thing as a range 5 shot. If he can do that he comes out ahead at ranges 4 and 6. The ther'es the option to hold the photons (nonoverloads) brick up, and charge in, expecting to take the range 5 hit and then mug them on their reload turn.





It would be a hard fight, but the fed is only counted out at the start if he gives up during energy allocation.

Peter: The analogy is wrong because you yourself said it applied to the full ECM IPG, which is not being discussed. Are you honoestly trying to say that a +1 shift is as impossible to balance as 4 extra drone racks on the Kzinti?

I am interested in the Vudar because one thing that has kept me from joining the tournament scene is that it seems pretty stagnant. Each race's tactics against each other have been boiled down to a few set choices and standardized. If something as game altering as an IPG with minor ECM effects were to pop in I'd probably join so I could be a part of the new dynamic.

I never said I was "basing your understanding of the tournament environment on" anything. In fact, if you've been reading my post since this discussion started (and before) you'd have known that I was not a memeber of the tournament scene all along. That doesn't mean my opinion is worthless, as I'm very much a SFB player, and especially enjoy the Vudar.

Grant and Andy Vancil: I agree with you both.


James wrote: >>Peter: The analogy is wrong because you yourself said it applied to the full ECM IPG, which is not being discussed. Are you honoestly trying to say that a +1 shift is as impossible to balance as 4 extra drone racks on the Kzinti? >>

No. I'm saying that a bad idea is a bad idea. If adding EW to the Vudar is a bad idea, it is as bad an idea as any other bad idea.

>>I am interested in the Vudar because one thing that has kept me from joining the tournament scene is that it seems pretty stagnant.>>

How can you claim an environment is stagnant when you haven't actually played in that environment?

>>Each race's tactics against each other have been boiled down to a few set choices and standardized.>>

This is really not remotely true.

>> If something as game altering as an IPG with minor ECM effects were to pop in I'd probably join so I could be a part of the new dynamic.>>

This makes no sense to me at all. The environment exists, and you seem to think



it is stagnant, even though you don't actually play in said environment. Yet you seem to think that adding a ship, that may or may not be balanced, will suddenly make the stagnant environment, that you have no actual experience in playing in, less stagnant to the point that you'll suddenly jump on in?

>>I never said I was "basing your understanding of the tournament environment on" anything. In fact, if you've been reading my post since this discussion started (and before) you'd have known that I was not a memeber of the tournament scene all along. That doesn't mean my opinion is worthless, as I'm very much a SFB player, and especially enjoy the Vudar.>>

I never said your opinion was worthless. It just confuses me. And while it isn't completely necessary to have an understanding of the environment you are discussing rules changes in, it certainly helps.

-Peter


Quote:

If the exploits are that simple, point them out and work to get them fixed. For those majorly impacted by it, I would expect them to learn new tactics and a balance to be found. For those not affected by it very much I wouldn't expect anything to be done. Every race has good and bad matchups.

The fix is easy - remove the EW benefit.

By your own admission, you have not played Tournament SFB, yet you seem very quick to discount the opinions of those that have played hundreds of Tourney SFB games. Based upon my experience in the tourney, an EW-generating IPG cannot be balanced in the tourney environment.

The Tournament environment is not stagnant - at its highest levels it is often won or lost by a single point of power or a single hex of movement. In this environment, you want to add a system that has a 1-in-6 chance of negatively affecting every seeking weapon and direct fire attack against the Vudar ship. If you cannot see that that cannot be balanced then, with all due respect, you do not understand the tourney environment.


Peter: my readings on this board are what lead me to believe that tactics are standardized.





andy: That is definitely the easiest fix. but easiest isn't always best. I'm not discounting anyone's opinion. Peter, Andy, and Grant are saying that it needs testing. I'm agreeing with them. You're saying that it's pointless to try. I'm disagreeing with you.

<HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT><P>If you cannot see that that cannot be balanced then, with all due respect, you do not understand the tourney environment. <!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0>

Then neither do the others who have posted in this thread saying it needs to be playtested. It's my guess that in this case the majority (those who think it can be tested and possibly made to work) are in the right, as opposed to the solitary minority who thinks it's impossible and pointless to try. I could very well be wrong, but so could you.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 10:48 pm: Edit

Well, I think there were some odd statements made in this thread. (Which doesn't inherently make it bad, far from it) Here's some more thoughts.

1) I personally think a die roll shift of 1 is gigantic. I got into this very argument in my attempt to castrate the ECM drone, (which obviously failed), but some people I understand don't believe it. (And, maybe for them, it isn't) I can't fathom losing a game, to anyone, who has a die roll shift against them. Now, I know the IPG isn't that good, nor will it ever guarantee a shift when necessary, just commenting on the statement that a shift of 1 isn't that important.

2) What Andrew said about handling the scatterpack is exactly why I said the drone defense was "comically good".

3) As far as Peter being closeminded, or Andy P if that's whom you were referring, it seems odd to go on the attack against people who admittedly do play alot of SFB. As for playtesting "whatever we want", that really is not an option. The Steves have reasonably strict guidelines on what and how they want ships playtested, (which reminds me, I want to fly some Andro games at 5 Nations Peter), and anything is exactly a waste of time.

4) I thought Peter's analogy of 4 drones was pretty good, personally. However, since at least one person doesn't like it, I'll change it up a little....The Vudar can use the IPG, but the shift is always HELPS the enemy. Now, perhaps the Vudar will need to change and create new tactics to deal with this antishift.....

Now, all that aside, I don't have some problem with the IPG having ECM benefits,



and I don't see Peter or Andy or anyone saying that. I see them, (and me), saying if you want to have something that dang good on a ship, you need to rip some weapons off. (Or hull, or power, or whatever)

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 10:51 pm: Edit

btw...After rereading what Andy P said a few times, I guess he IS saying no way to the EW, chuckle.


Timothy, re ripping off weapons: I agree sompletely. I'd be interested in seeing how the ship flies with the shift of 1 and one less cannon. It steals away the ability to stroll up under IPG and trade alphas at range 5, then duck back under. Well, it doesn't steal it, but it definitely makes it far less optimal.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 09:22 am: Edit

My personal "nutty" thought would be to give it both IPG's, full EW benefits, and remove the 2 FA cannons. (And, I am possibly taking away too much, but....) The two things most interesting to me on the ship are the 2 FX cannons and the IPG things, so I'd personally want those dudes in there.

Is there some "historical" Vudar ship with a rear firing cannon? Tossing on a RA cannon wouldn't bother me either, and would be interesting.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 09:34 am: Edit

Like as much as I agree with Andy that the EW shift is probably a game killer, I'd certainly be willing to try some ship out that had the EW shift available (max -1). But as noted before, it would have to be a different SSD than the one that is available now. Maybe some kind of CW/CWL (as per Grant's suggestion) with a maximum of 3xICs. But as the current ship is already certainly viable *without* the EW shift, giving it even a +1 is likely madness.

-Peter

By Andy Palmer (Andypalmer) on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 09:47 am: Edit

As I stated above, the problem with the "allow EW but on a smaller ship" is that the EW benefit will vary on the matchup and will vary significantly. In order to reduce the ship enough that the most EW impacted ships (Fed for example) have a chance, you reduce it to the point that the ship gets crushed by heavy seeking weapon ships. Most of the matchups need to be in the 40-60% win rate range and I don't see that happening with an EW producing IPG - the disparity of impact is too great to balance.

By Peter D Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 09:58 am: Edit

Oh, sure--I suspect that you are completely correct. But I'd still certainly be willing to give it a try.

-Peter













By Grant Strong (Phoenix) on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 03:17 pm: Edit

While I realize some of you are completely against the IPG generating EW, what I hope we as a group can do is find a way to have a "probable" use against each opponent. Currently... Drone Races: IPG Kills Drones

Plasma Races: Possibly Do Damage to Plasma as well?

Hydran: Fighters have to hold Phaser-Gs at range to discourage the Vudar to run them over with the IPG

Fed, Lyran, LDR, Andro(Does it hit the T-bomb?), Tholians, and Selt: Other then Shuttles no use

Throwing out another idea here, but what about having the 1 EW shift cost significantly more in terms of power from the capaciter used(aka using all 4 power to generate a 1 shift for 4 impulses)

Also we may want to consider keeping both IPGs on the vudar but limiting the capaciters to 2 points each so a rogue "3" doesn't neuter the ship.

By James Mcmurray (Jmcmurra) on Friday, September 08, 2006 - 03:28 pm: Edit

That's been my concern all along with the IPGs. Against a lot of races they do little to nothing*, despite being the signature piece of the race. I like the 2 IPGs idea.

* well, they do something, they save your opponent the energy he would have spent on arming and holding suicide shuttles. ;-)

By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 02:36 pm: Edit

I've been out of this for a while, but wanted to chime in with my .02, take it for what it's worth ... which is something less than that.

The IPG as an EW engine doesn't really work in tourney because it cannot be opposed and creates a LOT of very uneven matchups.

I'm imagining a lot of overruns against hydrans at speed 31 putting up a 4-shift for 4 impulses, while you're in prime fusion range.

However, getting back to the earlier discussion. The Vudar's point defense (against plasma) is somewhat lacking in comparison (by at least a P3) with EVERY other ship at range 2.

Providing a minor plasma-only effect remedys that without unbalancing them







against any other opponent. Does it account for the loss of being able to gamble and walk into a plasma waiting for EW to dampen its blow? No.

But that's in the same category as narrow salvo in my mind as an awful risk that brings a tourney game down to a die roll.

Give the poor reptiles tools defenses equivalent to everyone else (without increasing their offense) and call it good.

By Timothy Sheehy (Spydaer) on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 03:21 pm: Edit

I'm not saying the Vudar is good/bad/indifferent, but before I am willing to believe they need an adjustment to be on par with other ships, I need to have it demonstrated they need to be.

Peter posted a game he played as a plasma ship. From what I read, they used the IPG to damage the plasma, and from what I read, it had precious little to do with anything that happened in the game. And, even though Peter is a great Gorn player, Peter lost. (And, it appeared to be a good, close game) I'm not in any way certain Peter losing means the ship needs an upgrade.

Also, alot of what has been said here has compared the plasma defense of the Vudar to the plasma defense of the rest of the field. Now, I understand the rationale and all, but if we are going to do that, then we also need to likewise compare the drone defense of the Vudar to the drone defense of the rest of the field. I have yet to hear anyone mention that the drone defense of the Vudar is way stronger than the rest of the field, and suggest a downgrade to make it comparable.

Now, as for the IPG doing "next to nothing" against some ships, I'm not convinced that the IPG being more useful against some ships than others is a problem. I mean, in the TKE, the tbomb is gigantic against drone using races. It does pretty much nothing against the rest. The Hellbores of the Hydran are arguably the best heavy weapon in the game, and yet the Lyran and LDR have a type of defense that makes their use much more difficult. Regardless, the ability to hit shuttle(s), and protect another phaser on the DAC, is not meaningless.

Regardless, this doesn't mean it wouldn't be cool if the Vudar had the IPG EW thing. I'm just not certain the arguments being used for it are all that useful.


Michael wrote: >>However, getting back to the earlier discussion. The Vudar's point defense (against plasma) is somewhat lacking in comparison (by at least a P3) with EVERY other ship at range 2. >>





Sure. But the Vudar's plasma defense is a higher operational speed than most other DF ships (40 power and low cost to hold weapons) combined with a pair of FX heavy weapons. Which helps against plasma far more than a couple extra p3s or letting the IPGs do damage to plasma.

-Peter


Tim wrote: >>Peter posted a game he played as a plasma ship. From what I read, they used the IPG to damage the plasma, and from what I read, it had precious little to do with anything that happened in the game.>>

Heh. Thanks for the kind words. The Vudar killed me 'cause he was faster that I expected him to be (due to the 40 power and low arming requirements) and 'cause his heavy weapons are more accurate than Photons while doing comperable damage. That, and he diced like a god, but that happens sometimes :-)

The IPGs doing damage to plasma was mostly irrelevant. I mean, yeah, better than nothing, but spending 4 power to reduce a plasma by 2 (potentially saving 8 damage over 4 plasmas, but if you getting hit by 4 plasmas, you are dead anyway :-) is not so handy that it is worth implimenting a special rule for.

-Peter

By James Mcmurray (Jmcmurra) on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 07:54 pm: Edit

Michael Kenya: that's why several alternatives have been discussed which would allow EW but disallow full effectiveness. The last option discussed was to have each burst be worth +1 ECM instead of +3.

By John C. Malis (Malis) on Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 06:44 pm: Edit

I'm not sure where to post the following:

Will the Vudar and or Andro be ready for this years Council SFB Tournament?

Malis

By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 12:20 am: Edit

James:

I hear ya. However, an ECM burst gives the Vudar an unfair advantage in a non-ECM environment. I, for one, have no desire to see another Andro monster created.

There's a small, but distinct, negative against one specific opponent-type, mostly because it was non-historical. Best, IMHO, to fix that one problem rather than




http://www.starfleetgames.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-profile.cgi?action=display_profile&profile=malis-public





unbalance them with EVERYONE.

Mike


John wrote: >>Will the Vudar and or Andro be ready for this years Council SFB Tournament?>>

Unlikely. They are both in playtest, and unless Dave got special dispensation to use them at Council, they would break sanction.

The current Andro (3TRL/6P2/4 BTTY) is probably too weak to be particularly competetive; the current Vudar, even without the EW from the IPGs, might actually be a touch too strong.

-Peter

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 10:18 am: Edit

I wonder if there is any proposed Paravian ship for events.

I was looking at the CL version of their CA and CL and they would be powerful. Especially iof they retained the NWOs.

Mike


Quote:

I hear ya. However, an ECM burst gives the Vudar an unfair advantage in a non-ECM environment. I, for one, have no desire to see another Andro monster created.

Same here, I just think that it can be done without creating a monster. It would require lots of playtesting, enough such that viable tactics to combat it can be figured out instead of just "I charged him, we fired, and the shift made me miss."

By John C. Malis (Malis) on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 12:53 pm: Edit

Peter: Thanks for the update. I'm looking forward to seeing you at Council.

How long has the Vudar been in playtest mode? How are the Vudar and Andro playtested?


http://www.starfleetgames.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-profile.cgi?action=display_profile&profile=malis-public




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Malis

By Michael Kenyon (Mikek) on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Well, the problems I see with GENERAL ECM-shift are (and keep in mind, I'm in favor of the "burst-damages-plasma" camp that Troy Latta started):

a) It makes the ship one-dimensional tactically. b) The benefit is variable based off of the weapons you have. It's meaningless vs. the PPD or Hellbore, by the time you hit overload range, the Photons or Disruptors won't care. The phasers and fusions take a BEATING by it, however. c) If the cost is normal (1:1), it's the best deal in the game. If it's (3:1) or (4:1), you're almost always better off taking it as reinforcment or speed.

Ask the question, do they need it? For balance, only really against plasma-monkeys. For race-flavor, no. They've got it in one mode and as has been pointed out, many of the other races lose some of their options in the name of balance.

Mike


Your point B (especially the part about photons) doesn't mesh with the other posters' reasons to not allow it. Quite a few people complained about how strong an effect it has against photons.

If it's meaningless against hellbores, and the PPD, and doesn't matter at overload range against disruptors and photons, then a huge chunk of the reason to disallow it just went away.

By Andy Vancil (Andy) on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 02:26 pm: Edit

Hmm.

I would have to totally disagree with all three of your points.

a) The main argument for retaining the ECM shift is that it is key to the unique tactics of the ship. The timing of the IPG, the amount of power to use with it, or whether to use it in Burst mode instead of Jamming mode, etc., are all things that make the Vudar interesting. Without the ECM, it's a pure direct-fire ship, albeit with a special drone-defense mechanism. It has nothing to influence its opponent's movement or the timing of the engagement. I completely fail to see how adding the dimension of IPG jamming makes the ship one-dimensional, unless you are arguing that without it, the ship is zero-dimensional.

b) Yes, it affects different weapons differently, but the numbers don't match your assessement. It's not meaningless versus the PPD and HB. It does affect those weapons (especially the PPD) less than single-die weapons, but that is a good thing, in terms of balance, because there are fewer HBs and PPDs. I don't see how phasers take "a BEATING" as they are far more EW resistant than any hit-or-







miss weapon. Fusions are affected slightly more, but again, still do better than hit-or-miss weapons.

OTOH, photons and disruptors, at any range, will be significantly affected. One of the biggest arguments against allowing IPG jamming is the effect on photons.

c) Keep in mind that effect only lasts for 4 impulses, and any power you use for jamming can't be used to kill drones. It may need to be limited for the tournament environment, but if those limitations make it so there is a decision whether to power it, or power something else (like reinforcement or speed), that's hardly a bad thing. Again, it widens the tactical options for the ship, and gives the captain decisions to make.


Why don't we just focus on balancing the ship AS IS (i.e., as currently defined by ADB) and worry about this (IMO, futile) attempt to get powered EW into the game AFTER that?

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 04:36 pm: Edit

I'm still a little surprised when I hear anyone saying the Vudar is too strong as is. I've only played one game against it(last night), but it seems a bit weak. Looking at the SSD, it seems to be about on par with the Fed, which I consider a bottom 5 ship. My game last night did nothing to change that opinion.


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