Oral history interview with Sylvan Cole, 2000June-October

Funding for the digital preservation of this interview was provided by a grantfrom the Save America's Treasures Program of the National Park Service.

Contact InformationReference DepartmentArchives of American ArtSmithsonian InstitutionWashington. D.C. 20560www.aaa.si.edu/askus

Transcript

Preface

The following oral history transcript is the result of a tape-recorded interview with Sylvan Cole from June throughOctober, 2000. The interview took place at the Sylvan Cole Gallery, New York and was conducted by AvisBerman for the Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution.

The reader should bear in mind that he or she is reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written prose.

Interview

AVIS BERMAN: This is Avis Berman on June 28th, 2000, interviewing Sylvan Cole in his gallery at 101 West 57thStreet. And at the risk of being a little bit redundant, would you begin by stating your full name and your date ofbirth?

SYLVAN COLE: Sylvan Cole, Junior – that’s the way I was born, no middle initial. And I was born January 10th,1918.

MS. BERMAN: Now I will start, and ask you how did you get the name Sylvan?

MR. COLE: I am a junior. And Dad got the name – It’s interesting; Dad was Sylvan Cohn, C-O-H-N. And right after Iwas born – I actually was born Cohn – I guess I was a year old, and the name was changed to Cole for businesspurposes and all the rest. And the funny thing is, all Sylvans – or most Sylvans – are Jewish. But that’s neitherhere nor there; that’s how it happened.

MS. BERMAN: Uh-huh. And Sylvan, was that any sort of family name or anything?

MR. COLE: I don’t know how he got it. Theoretically, I had heard that it came somewhere from Alsace Loraine,where there was a family root. And it was a fairly common name there.

MS. BERMAN: Well, why don’t you tell me a little bit about your family background?

MR. COLE: Dad was a – a rare reversed Californian. Dad was born in Los Angeles, moved to Pomona when hewas very young. And my grandfather had a dry goods store in Pomona, when it must’ve been a real backwashplace. I never forgave my grandparents or great-grandparents for not – who headed out to the gold rush andended up in the wrong city. But anyway, Dad moved to Los Angeles to be bar mitzvahed. And my grandmother –Grandpa, I think, had passed away very early; I never knew him. But my grandmother took in boarders. And theyhad this big house. And I think the population of Los Angeles was roughly 50,000 people. And one of theboarders carried the Arrow shirt line. My uncle Walter – he became my Uncle Walter. And his territory was theMississippi River, west.

Dad was born 1889. And – Uncle Walter and Dad got together. He – Uncle Walter became Uncle Walter bymarrying Dad’s sister, Rose, my Aunt Rose. And he became Uncle Walter, and he and Dad started Dollar ShirtShops. They prospered. They had several stores in Los Angeles, several stores in San Francisco. And time cameto make their fortunes, and the two of them came east to set up a company, which became National ShirtShops.

And at that time, on a blind date, my dad met my mother. Mother came from a very long, illustrious Jewishfamily, whose family root was Ballin, B-A-L-L-I-N. And the Ballin family were wealthy Germans. Huge families.Eight, ten, twelve kids, every – almost every generation. And the Ballin family, part of it was Albert Ballin, whoowned and directed the North German Lloyd Line before World War Two. And theoretically, an uncle, HugoBallin, who was a painter and designed the sets for the Wizard of Oz, and lived in California. We trace our familyback to the Bellinis in Italy. And the Balin, B-A-L-I-N, who did the Gardens of Versailles in France. And so theywere all one happy family.

And Mother grew up, born of – A grandmother of mine who was born in Mississippi, and a grandfather of minewho was born in New Orleans. Mother grew up here in New York, and went to Ethical Culture, which was a veryfine school, and to Horace Mann. [Phone rings; tape stops, re-starts]

MS. BERMAN: You were talking about the Ballins.

MR. COLE: So – And Mother married Dad. She had graduated Horace Mann in 1915; taught at Ethical Culture.She – I just realized she didn’t go to Ethical Culture, she – she went to Horace Mann. She taught at EthicalCulture. And Dad, she married – when Mother was nineteen. And I was born the following year. And I graduated

Horace Mann almost twenty years to the day that my mother had graduated. Isn’t that amazing, that – Andwhen I was born, I had a great-great-grandmother living in Holland, five generations.

MS. BERMAN: Well, that’s also amazing that even on your father’s side, that they would come – There were veryfew Jews that came as early as they did. I guess they were almost Yankees on your father’s side, as well as yourmother’s.

MR. COLE: Well, Dad has little books I have somewhere of the Jewish families in Los Angeles in those days. Andthey went to film. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer. Almost all the film people were Jews.

MS. BERMAN: Oh, but they weren’t born there, and they weren’t born in California.

MR. COLE: No, that’s true.

MS. BERMAN: I mean, obviously, your father was born in this country. [MR. COLE: Yeah, yeah] That was veryearly, so you’re – At least your grandparents or great grandparents came. Also, yes, Hugo Ballin was also a verysuccessful academic muralist. There’s actually quite a bit about him around.

MR. COLE: Oh, I’m sure. And the funny thing is, I just heard from a cousin in Washington. And he was so excited.He went to the – He’s writing a guided tour of Washington, D.C. And he went to the Renwick Gallery, and therewere two paintings of Hugo Ballin.

MS. BERMAN: Well, no, he was quite powerful in –

MR. COLE: I’m surprised; nobody’s ever heard of him but you. [Laughs]

MS. BERMAN: Well, I have, because he was involved in the early National Academy of Design, and he was – hewas a friend of Gertrude Vanderbilt Whitney’s.

MR. COLE: He even left money at the American Academy of Arts and Letters for funds for needy artists. Andthere is a fund there that I’ve applied for once, for an artist who was being evicted.

MS. BERMAN: Well, that’s very interesting, that you never researched it more.

MR. COLE: I never researched him at all.

MS. BERMAN: Now, just to explore the family a little bit more, Irving Berlin’s original name was Ballin. Did youever find Irving Berlin to be a relative?

MR. COLE: I think all Ballin’s were related.

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm. And now, did you have – did you have any brothers or sisters?

MR. COLE: I have two brothers, younger. One’s still alive, just reached 80 years old, and lives down in Texas. AndI have another brother who died about 1969 or ‘70 in an auto accident out in the Hamptons. He was a – probablyat his age – Let’s see, in 1968, I would’ve been 40, he’d have been 28. In 19 – No, I’d have been 50; he’d havebeen 38. He had the biggest and best print collection. Sort of a sibling situation. He had – And his widow, who’sremarried to Jack Greenberg, the NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People] founder,legal founder

MS. BERMAN: The lawyer, right.

MR. COLE: – and she still has [Toulouse]Lautrec, [Pablo] Picasso, [Edvard] Munch. Fabulous, fabulous collection ofwork.

MS. BERMAN: Did you – did you make that collection?

MR. COLE: Some of it.

MS. BERMAN: Well, let us now – This sounds like quite a cultivated home, in terms of education and culture andcuriosity. And I’d like to ask you what sorts of – you know, were you exposed to art when you were a child?

MR. COLE: It’s interesting. My parents were not collectors, but they did have, interestingly enough, mostly prints,which was very much the vogue. I can remember [inaudible] panel huge, ugly, dark etchings in the living room.But Mother was interested, and I remember, even as a teenager, going gallery hopping with Mother, or going tomuseums.

And one of my favorite places was Stieglitz’s American Place, and seeing my first O’Keeffe show, which was All

Camellias, and practically swooning, it was so beautiful. And Stieglitz would come out in his gray smock and patme on the head and tell me about the pictures, and – and – I was one of the few youngsters that ever went intothat gallery. And I remember him very vividly.

But I think the real seminal change in my life was – My closest friend at Horace Mann was a boy named HerbertHirschland. And Herbert’s family was a Dr. [Franz H.] Hirschland, who was president of American Metal-something – I won’t remember this – which became American Can. And his mother was Swedish, lovely lady.[Phone rings; tape stops, re- starts]

MS. BERMAN: You were talking about [MR. COLE: Oh, yes] Herbert Hirschland.

MR. COLE: Anyway, Dr. Hirschland had a Daumier, “Third-Class Carriage” – or second class, I forget. A smallversion. El Greco that maybe is not an El Greco. Van Gogh, Renoir, Degas, Cezanne, and a host of otherwonderful paintings in his home.

MS. BERMAN: Paintings, not –

MR. COLE: Right. And I almost became a weekly weekender there, and – [Door bell]. Can you get that? [tapestops, re-starts]

MR. COLE: I was a constant weekender. And I do know that I – I remember something that Herbert denies couldhave been true. But I remember Dr. Hirschland talking to a scruffy old guy at breakfast, when Herbert and I justwere dying to get excused so we could play war upstairs in the attic. And that scruffy old guy was AlbertEinstein. And Herbert says that is – I couldn’t make it up.

And the other thing I remember is that at the end of the – behind Dr. Hirschland, on the wall in the dining room,was a Cezanne of a view of a hillside. And that Cezanne [Gardanne, 1885-86]is now at the Metropolitan Museumof Art. And I go and visit it – to see my Cezanne. And in my bedroom, I remember two paintings. One was apainting of [Paul] Klee of the famous cat with the whiskers [Cat and Bird, 1928], which is now at the Museum ofModern Art. And I remember there was a Franz Kline of blue horses. And that’s all I remember. But Dr.Hirschland used to take me around and explain the pictures. I was the only kid that had any interest in that.

Other memories I have of growing up is going to the Met, and having the whole place to myself, gallery togallery; and falling in love with George Inness. I can’t remember that painting, Good and Plenty [Peace andPlenty, 1865] or something. This huge, huge picture of a bucolic landscape; and I think it had a rainbow and – asa city boy, he was my favorite artist.

MS. BERMAN: George Inness.

MR. COLE: Yeah. And – Then I also remember starting a collection of postcards of all the works of art I could graba hold of. And I still have it in a file box somewhere at home, and I don’t know what to do with it, but – Evenwhen I went to Europe in my college days, I would collect cards from various museums. That’s sort of up tocollege. I graduated Horace Mann in ‘35.

MS. BERMAN: So I just – So Hirschland, is that H-E-R-?

MR. COLE: H-I-R-S-C-H-

MS. BERMAN: Oh, ok. L-A-N-D?

MR. COLE: L-A-N-D.

MS. BERMAN: Did you – but did you draw or paint? Did you like to do it yourself?

MR. COLE: No. Never.

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm. Now, Stieglitz was actually – Was he interested in your mother, or he just sort of made apet of you?

MR. COLE: Yeah, I think he was just interested in people that were interested in what he showed.

MS. BERMAN: Did you ever meet any of the artists that came into the gallery?

MR. COLE: Never. I don’t remember ever meeting any artist – before I got to Associated American Artists [AAA]in ‘46. Certainly, if I did it was no artist of note.

MS. BERMAN: Well, Stieglitz was an artist, of course.

MR. COLE: Yeah. Well, he was my first art connection, I guess, to the art world.

MS. BERMAN: Well, did you – did you have any sense when you looked at his gallery – did you have a sense ofthe gallery itself as a gallery, or interest in it as sort of an environment.

MR. COLE: I – I just was fascinated with Georgia O’Keeffe. And I did go to a few of the shows. I presume I went tosome others, but I don’t remember them. I only remember – and it’s funny; in the Whitney retrospective [1970]of O’Keeffe – I don’t think it was in the Met; it was an earlier one – there was a piece of graph paper, and it had aline with a sort of bulge in it, like this; and then it had a zigzag. And it was Man and Woman. And I – that –Stieglitz explained that to me. And it was so abstracted, of course, but – I just remember that little tidbit.

MS. BERMAN: Oh, he explained it to you. It would be interesting to recall what he said. Now, you – you went toCornell, and you majored in English and minored in art history. Was there a reason that it was that way, ratherthan the other way.

MR. COLE: Art history at Cornell University consisted of one hour each semester, elective, your junior or senioryear, period. And it was a slide course, which took you from Egypt right through to Picasso. And it’s the onlycourse I ever got A’s in. And now they give a doctorate. It’s just amazing. Two hours, one hour each semester,was all that it had for the history of art.

MS. BERMAN: Well, why did you decide to go to Cornell?

MR. COLE: It was just something people were doing in those days. Dartmouth happened to be my first choice,and I didn’t get into Dartmouth, and I did get into Cornell, and Penn and Columbia, and I didn’t want a city, so Ipicked Cornell.

MS. BERMAN: So now, did you collect – I think I read in one of the articles that you may’ve been collecting printsin college? Is that correct?

MR. COLE: No.

MS. BERMAN: Ok. That’s a mistake.

MR. COLE: Mother was the collector. Let’s see. Associated American Artists was started in 1934. And Mother wasone of the early people that were buying the five dollar prints. And while I was in college, I would come homeand Mother would have the catalogues. And I’d say, “Get this, get this, get this,” and she’d buy them and put‘em in her sollinger box, or occasionally I think they hung a few of them, but I don’t remember that.

MS. BERMAN: Now, she would listen to you.

MR. COLE: Yes, but she also had some definite opinions.

MS. BERMAN: In those days, what were – what were you telling her to buy?

MR. COLE: I do remember I told her to buy Grant Wood. I don’t remember any of the – I remember MarionGreenwood was another person that I thought would – and Earl Horter. Those were prints that were beingpublished by – and I thought were very interesting.

This is almost an aside, but I must tell you that years later, when I got to Associated American Artists, and I tookit over – this was 1961, ‘62 – Mother came to me and wanted to sell the Grant Woods. And I said, “You know,Mom, they’re worth about twelve hundred apiece, and I’ll only take a 20% commission, and –” And she said, “Oh,if that’s all, I don’t wanna sell ‘em.” I forgot all about it. About 1966 or ‘7, few – few Grant Woods came up atSotheby’s. And they sold for over three thousand dollars. And I called my mother and I said, “Mom, you won’tbelieve it! These Grant Woods are selling for over three thousand.” She says, “I know, they’re mine.” [Laughs;Phone rings; tape stops, re-starts]

MS. BERMAN: I must ask you, why did your mother decide to sell them at Sotheby’s and not tell you?

MR. COLE: I have no idea. [MS. BERMAN Laughs] I guess she thought she’d get more money than getting it fromme, that’s all I can say. [Laughs]

MS. BERMAN: Well, just by the way, you told her to buy Grant Wood. Do you remember what she had picked outfrom Associated American Artists?

MR. COLE: No, not really. It was – it was a very nice cross section collection. And frankly, I don’t know whathappened to most of it. I think they gave it away to friends and wedding presents and whatever.

MS. BERMAN: But you decided, evidently, you didn’t get enough art history or you – and you went to Rutgers as –

MR. COLE: My first job out of college was with Sears Roebuck. And I was an executive trainee at eighteen dollarsa week. And I was in New Brunswick, New Jersey, at the store there, running the men’s clothing department,which consisted of overalls and work shirts and a few dress shirts and socks and stuff. And – I went to Rutgersjust to take some art history, further art history courses. That was it, just night classes.

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm. ‘Cause I didn’t think that Rutgers had any kind of great shakes art history departmentthen.

MR. COLE: Didn’t. Whatever they had is what I took.

MS. BERMAN : Mm-hm.

MR. COLE: And I have very little memory of who taught it or anything like that. It was mostly slides, I doremember that.

MS. BERMAN: So you were living in New Brunswick?

MR. COLE: Yes, at the YMCA.

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm. So this must’ve been – I mean –

MR. COLE: Well, this lasted a relatively short period of time. I got out of Cornell in 1939. And I was drafted onFebruary 26th, 1941.

MS. BERMAN: Seems early.

MR. COLE: Before we were at war.

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm. Yeah. Why do you think you were drafted? You were –

MR. COLE: Oh, the number came up.

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm.

MR. COLE: We were all registered for the draft, whether you liked it or not, if you were over eighteen. And mynumber came up. So I went from New Brunswick to –

MS. BERMAN: Camp Kilmer.

MR. COLE: No, what’s the fort in New Jersey, the big one?

MS. BERMAN: Hoboken. Was Hoboken there? No, Fort Dix?

MR. COLE: Fort Dix. Went to Fort Dix, got mustered in, got uniform, took a few weeks of latrine duty and peelingpotatoes and marching, and finally they called us all out, and each platoon got into a train. And it zigzaggedback and forth; we thought we were going to Alabama, to Georgia, to Texas. We didn’t know where we weregoing. And we finally get out, and we were at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. After two hours – three hours in thetrain from Fort Dix, shunting back and forth. And we’re in the Signal Corps. And I am in the signal constructioncompany, which means you climb telephone poles and string wires. And there was a fellow soldier by the nameof Denny [ph], Robert Denny, I think, who was a Princeton graduate. And he found out I was a Cornell man. Andhe then found out that we never should’ve been in signal construction; we were supposed to be in radiointelligence. And I often think about this as the complete twist of fate of our sitting opposite each other, allhappened in that moment of time, when a sergeant, rather than call the roll and assign the positions for everysoldier on the train, just took one car and made them radio intelligence, another car signal construction. Andthat was it. And I was in the signal construction. And most of the guys who were in radio intelligence were sentoverseas and got killed. I think it is the one twist of all my life that is as capricious as that. Anyway, that’s neitherhere nor there, but it’s – it’s always struck me.

MS. BERMAN: So were you in this country the whole time?

MR. COLE: So I’m in signal construction, climbing poles. Finally got a good job wiring up a hospital. And then theywanted a typist. And with my two fingers, I went to headquarters and got a job as a typist, where I typed on theold mimeograph paper. You know, where – with that blue paper, [MS. BERMAN: Yeah] and I would type theorders for the day, transferring soldiers or bringing them in or – And then I became a Private First Class. That, Ithink, was my highest rank; I don’t think I ever became a corporal. And around me were all these master

sergeants and staff sergeants, with all the stripes. And of course, the general’s office was right across the wayfrom me.

And then comes Pearl Harbor. And I remember being in New York. And I was with my grandmother. AndRoosevelt comes on. And we were ordered back to our posts. And that night – I should say before Pearl Harbor,we lived the life of luxury. I think I saw every show on Broadway. We got weekend passes. And you’d go to 38thStreet, I think, and Lex [Lexington]. But it was a soldiers and sailors place, and they had all these tickets, and I’dget two tickets, call a date, go to the theater. Two tickets, buy.

Anyway, I remember I had a car, which totaled eventually. But – the thing that I remember that day was headingback to post and wondering what’s gonna happen to us. And the thing is, nothing happened. You know, we wenton with our lives. Signal people were being sent abroad, of course, and we were busy. And the other thing Iremember is on my desk, I had the Congressional medal – Not the Medal of Honor, a Medal of DistinguishedService for [Joseph] Lockard, who was the guy in Hawaii who alerted the fact that the Japanese planes werecoming, and they ignored him. He was all alone, and he picked it up on his radar screen. And I remember I hadhis medal, and he was brought to the post, and we had a big parade when he got the medal. And I wrote theorders for it, the citation.

Anyway, by February, I guess, they were starting officer candidate schools. And I applied to the adjutantgeneral’s department, which in peacetime, you had to be over 40 to be in, which was the Army administration.And lo and behold, by March, I was sent to the first or second class of the adjuvant general’s department at FortWashington, Maryland. And over all of the other sergeants and the master sergeants, they couldn’t believe thata Private First Class would be sent to officer candidate school. And I got out in three months as a first – as asecond lieutenant. In another two weeks, or three weeks, I was made a first lieutenant. And in three months, Iwas a captain. Let’s see, this is 1942, 18 – 22 – I was 24 or ‘5 years old. And we were stationed – if I – I had leaveand went into Washington, D.C., the MPs would come by and say, “Sir, can we see your ID?” [Laughs] Which wasvery funny.

Anyway, I then was retained to teach. For a guy who had flunked speech making or – at Cornell, because I wasso scared, here I was now made a school teacher. And I became a very good one. And I taught military recordkeeping, military decorations, on and on. And I taught other officer candidates. And I even commanded acompany one term. And I stayed teaching at the officer candidate school until I was discharged, five years later.We went from Fort Washington, Maryland to – At that time, I’d – By then I’d gotten married to my first wife[Vivian Vanderpool]. We then went to Fort Sam Houston, Texas. And that’s where my first child, my daughter,was born. I was transferred before she was born to Fort Oglethorpe in Georgia. And my wife and daughter-to-bewent into Brooke General Hospital. We were transferred, because they thought the casualties in Japan would beso great that they were going to take over the entire fort to become a hospital. And then Nancy and my first wifejoined me in Fort Oglethorpe, and – And that’s from where I was discharged, in March 1946. That’s the wholeArmy story that I can think of.

MS. BERMAN: Let me just – just – I realize we’re missing, just in terms of names – What was your mother’s firstname?

MR. COLE: Dorothy.

MS. BERMAN: Dorothy. And your first – your first wife’s name was Ruth?

MR. COLE: My first wife?

MS. BERMAN: Was Ruth?

MR. COLE: Vivian, yeah.

MS. BERMAN: Ok, I only knew Ruth, so that was your—?

MR. COLE: Wait, no, Lillyan.

MS. BERMAN: Lillyan, right.

MR. COLE: Lillyan, you knew.

MS. BERMAN: Right, Lillyan, ok. So your first, her name was Vivian?

MR. COLE: Vivian Vanderpool, and she was from Norman, Oklahoma. But she was in Washington, working with“Wild Bill” Donovan and the OSS, oh so secret. I never even knew what she did. She never told me.

MS. BERMAN: And you weren’t curious? Or you knew you’d –

MR. COLE: Yes, but she just said, “Don’t ask me, please.”

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm. Well, ‘cause war time, it made sense.

MR. COLE: Yeah. Well, I mean, shortly after we married, she left the job.

MS. BERMAN: And so your eldest child is named Nancy.

MR. COLE: Right.

MS. BERMAN: Ok. So that’s the Army story. Just in curiosity, when you used to go in on leave, either in New Yorkor Washington, did you – was it mostly kind of theater and dating? Or did you go to any galleries or – ?

MR. COLE: I do not remember doing any art-wise things during the Army. Except – Oh, wait a minute. Yes. AtFort Sam Houston, it was – There were 40 posts around – Fort Sam is in San Antonio. There were 40 postsaround that – There were Army airfields right around, there were other military posts, there were small posts,there were big posts. There were literally thousands of soldiers in that area. So housing was unbelievablydifficult. And the first house I had, I remember, was a garage apartment. The garage was underneath, and on topof the garage was a so-called apartment. And I kept trying to get better quarters. And I had heard that there wasa woman named McNay, who had some cottages to rent. So one morning – At that point, am I a captain? Yes,I’m Captain Cole. Goes and knocks on the door, and this strange looking woman in a huge purplish kimono opensthe door, and I said, “I’m here to ask about –” She said, “I don’t have anything for rent right now.” And I said, “Isthat a Renoir over there behind you?” And she said, “Yes, come in.” And this was the McNay who –

MS. BERMAN: Marion Koogler McNay.

MR. COLE: That’s right. And I’m the only person, when I go down to San Antonio, I am the only person that everknew her. Even John Leeper didn’t know her, Bob Towbin didn’t know her. Mrs. Towbin may have known her. But– Anyway, she and I became friends, and we exchanged Christmas cards until she died.

MS. BERMAN: So what was it like? You used to visit her, and what would –?

MR. COLE: Oh, I – Very seldom. You know, I was busy, I was – The military was not really a picnic, not duringwartime.

MS. BERMAN: No. That’s – that’s interesting, that you saw that and then – Well, all of a sudden [inaudible].

MR. COLE: I don’t even remember some of the other paintings she had. I know she had [Joan] Miró, I know shehad – I think she had a Cezanne, I think she had a Monet. She had that sort of impressionist school.

MS. BERMAN: But did you get the cottage?

MR. COLE: No.

MS. BERMAN: [Inaudible].

MR. COLE: But years later, I visited John Leeper, who was director of the museum, and he was in one of thecottages.

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm. By the way, I realized why I had called Lillyan and said Ruth Cole, because Jacob Kainen,you know, Ruth Cole.

MR. COLE: Ruth was Cole.

MS. BERMAN: Called Ruth is Cole, that’s what I meant.

MR. COLE: Sure, I always call her cousin.

MS. BERMAN: Oh, ok. So alright. So we’re – we’re now going to discharge you from the Army.

MR. COLE: Right.

MS. BERMAN: And you and your family move back to New York City?

MR. COLE: At that point, I had one daughter, and we got a place in Mount Vernon. An apartment. But I think Istayed with my parents for a month or so. And they lived on 125 East 72nd Street. I remember the apartmentwell. And at that time, my younger brother was – Charles was in the service. And Dick was home. [Phone rings;tape stops, re- starts]

MS. BERMAN: So you were – Ok, you’re with your parents.

MR. COLE: And – Dad said to me, “Son, you’re going to work for more part of your life than anything else. Andthe best thing for you to do is find something you like.” In the meanwhile, Sears Roebuck wanted me back.Didn’t want me, but was willing to have me back in the executive training position I had. They had given meprofit sharing while I was away, and asked if I wanted stock or the cash, and I ended up with 5,000 dollars incash, which was an unbelievable amount of money. 1946. I should’ve had the stock. But anyhow – So I wentdown to apply for a job, and had an interview with Reeves Lewenthal, the founder of Associated AmericanArtists. And I was still in uniform. And he hired me.

MS. BERMAN: Well, but how did you just fasten on, you know, the whole –

MR. COLE: Well, it all came because my parents had subscribed to AAA, and I had worked with them on buyingthese five dollar prints. And I was in charge of the mail order. Now, my first – And also, all the productioncatalogues. And my first job, within one day, I had to do a brochure – which was literally a four page, five and ahalf, eight and a half thing – on – on Aaron Bohrod, who was an artist/war correspondent, just come back. Andthese were drawings he had made of New Guinea and all the rest of that. Anyway, I then remember, went overto Life Magazine and got a picture of him as a war correspondent, which was on the cover. And I made a pictureof one of the New Guinea things, listed all the prints, all the gouaches that were in the exhibition, and a bio,which I wrote, and produced it, and took about a week to do this, and Reeves was very pleased.

But then I do remember working – And here is the part that really affects the oral history. I do rememberworking on the catalogues and the supplements offering the prints for five dollars, or six for 25 dollars. Theprocedure was to work with two sollinger boxes, both of which were filled with unmatted proofs of etchings andlithographs and woodcuts. Some wood engravings. One of the cases was something they sorta passed by, thatthey didn’t think it was appealing, and they didn’t – probably would never publish it. But I would lay out on thefloor in the gallery – which was at 711 Fifth Avenue, which was this huge space, mostly paintings, with a smallprint room – and I would lay out on the floor about 40 or 50 proofs. And Bob Parsons, who was the executivevice-president, just out of the Navy, and Reeves, and a woman named Estelle Mandel, who was a vice-president,and really, my boss, and myself would get together and discuss what prints to put into the next supplement. Andthey’d say, “Well, we certainly want this Gordon Grant; we certainly want this Luigi Lucioni.” They were staples.And then they’d say, “Well, we can’t have all landscape; we can’t have –” And then we get a figurative one, andwe get this and that. And we usually would pick out of the 40, 12 to 16 prints that would go into the nextsupplement. And then I would take over.

I would have halftones made of each of the prints. If the proofs weren’t signed, we’d fake a signature. Just for thehalftone. On a single print. Because it was a matter of time. Reeves would – or Estelle would order the printing ofthe prints. Sometimes we didn’t ask for the full 250. It would – The edition would be 260. 250 for AAA, and tenfor the artist. The printing, if it were wood, was done by the artist. Like Asa Shepherds did his own. I think therewere a few other, if it was wood, but not too many. The lithographs were all done at George Miller. And theetchings were all done in Brooklyn at Anderson-Lamb, right under the Brooklyn Bridge. The plates would begotten from the artist, or the stones would be at Miller. And the editions would be ordered. Sometimes we’d onlyorder a hundred at a time. Save money. The print – The artist got two hundred and fifty dollars for signing theprints. We paid for the printing. At George Miller, the printing at that time was 25 cents a print.

We then would get the prints matted in non-rag mats. And a biography for each artist would be attached to themat. And I would write the biography. And it would say, “Fog Brown, original lithograph; signed originallithograph by Gordon Grant.” And then they would tell a whole brief biography about Gordon Grant. And then atthe bottom Associated American Artists, 711 Fifth Avenue, and a little “copyright.” All this would come together.The catalogue – I would write each artist that was in the catalogue, and ask for the artist to send me a briefcommentary on the particular print that was going in. So when the catalogue – or the supplement, thesupplement was the 12 to 16 pieces. The supplement would have a little introductory page explaining whatthese were, and how much, and how it worked and all this, and framing and whatever. And then each pagewould have the illustration of the print with a little gray halftone border, and the signature, and that’s – And thenit would have the artist’s comment and then a brief bio. And that was on each page of the supplement.

[BEGIN TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO]

MS. BERMAN: The last thing we had talked about was the framing of these, which were –

MR. COLE: Right, well that’s probably listed in –

MS. BERMAN: Right.

MR. COLE: Did I – did you have that supplement, or give it back to me?

MS. BERMAN: Oh, here it is.

MR. COLE: Ok, well, let’s – I don’t see anything on framing on this one.

MS. BERMAN: That’s ok.

MR. COLE: But – Anyway, it seems like one of the pages is gone from this.

MS. BERMAN: But I still want to get back to – You thought of no other gallery? This was the only place you went?This was the –

MR. COLE: Only gallery.

MS. BERMAN: This was just what you fastened on.

MR. COLE: You’ve got to realize there were not that many. 57th Street did have a group of galleries. I doremember going into Milch. I do remember Kraushaar, when it was on the corner of 57th and Madison, thesoutheast corner. I remember Knoedler’s was at the corner of 56th and Fifth, the northwest corner. Very fancy –No, no, Duveen [Galleries] was there. Knoedler’s was on 57th, right about where the IBM Building is. I doremember going to those galleries. I – And Kennedy was where? Kennedy – I think it was up right near the SavoyPlaza, between 57th and Eighth or Eighth and Ninth. That’s where I met Albert Reese.

But getting back to the supplement. Because this is part of an amazing moment of time. The prints were fivedollars each, or six for 25 dollars.

MS. BERMAN: Still, in ‘46.

MR. COLE: 1946. It went on through to 1950. During World War II, if you bought a War Bond for eighteen dollarsand seventy five cents, which at maturity was 25 dollars, you still would get your six prints.

Once the supplement was finished, it would be accompanied by an order form, separate, and a return envelope.So those three pieces would go into an envelope. The mailing room – Well, before we got to the mailing room, Iwould discuss with Estelle and Reeves who were we going to mail this to? We certainly were going to mail it tothe purchaser list. The purchaser list consisted of those people who had purchased prints. But besides having apurchaser list, we also had a remove purchaser list. You must realize, by 1946, people had been buying since1934. Now, every so often – three years, five years – we would take the purchaser list and call it removepurchaser, or RP. RP-1, RP- 2, RP-3. Meant remove purchaser. We would mail to the remove purchaser list. Andevery time they bought, their stencil – These were metal –

MS. BERMAN: A mailing list label?

MR. COLE: Mail address labels. Done in metal. They would be punched out in a machine. We would remove thatname and make them purchasers. So after a supplement would go out, let’s say we had only 500 purchasers,and several thousand remove purchasers. Eventually, we would weed out from the RP-3 list all the people thatmay’ve bought the one print for a wedding present, and never again. So we kept the purchaser list as active aspossible. Otherwise –

As it was, the purchaser list – And here, I am not completely positive on figures. But I do know that we wouldmail – especially, like a Christmas catalogue or something, or a Christmas card catalogue, 50,000 people. Andour total mailing list grew to well over a 100,000, if you counted the remove purchasers. I don’t recall whatpostage was. We used third class mail. So it obviously was the least expensive way to mail, but we had a mailingroom on 42nd Street, between Eighth and Ninth Avenue, which I was in charge of. There was a woman therenamed Marguerite Bright [ph], who ran the mailing room. And she would address all the envelopes. I’d say,“Address the P list and the RP-3.” So she’d address them all. It’d be a 25, 30 000 mailing.

Then I would, of course, have the catalogues and the order forms and the envelopes all printed. They all go tothe mailing room. Then we would get day people in, pieceworkers, that would pick up the envelope, pick up theorder form, throw it in the thing, throw it in the envelope, seal everything. Moving faster than hands could – Imean amazing. They – they – A pieceworker would do 10,000 pieces in a day! Wonderful people. Crazy group ofpeople. I just remember being in awe. And they sat at long tables with sort of sides, and just bang-bang-bang,bang-bang-bang, bang-bang-bang, all day long. And they would be paid so much per thousand. And again,unfortunately, I have no memory of – But it was so little. Maybe five dollars a thousand would’ve been a lot. Youknow, probably was about right. And that would be the story of the patron supplement. Then every so often,we’d have a new product. I remember we had a bust of Roosevelt. And I still remember the return envelopesbeing filled with excrement and stuff like that. People that didn’t approve of our bust of Roosevelt. I know wehad a bust of Lincoln.

Then, in order to get new people onto our mailing list that didn’t know about Associated American Artists, wewould advertise. And Schwab and Beatty was our advertising agency, a very well known advertising agency. Andthey also were the advertising agency for a new startup company called Harry Abrams. And also for GeorgeMacy’s Book of the Month Club, which had been well established. Those were sort of the real culture gang then.Of course, the publicity that Associated American Artists got was constant. Because not only did we have theprint program, but by ‘40 – the middle forties, we were showing George Grosz, we were showing SigmundMenkes, Doris Lee, Arnold Blanch, all the roster of 60 artists that we represented exclusively. Raphael Soyer,Chaim Gross, on and on and on. And in addition to my doing the supplements, I would also be doing the gallerycatalogues for these things. And when I came aboard, we also had a gallery in Chicago, which I closed in ‘47,myself. I – I went out to liquidate – Can’t believe these things.

Anyway, following the mail order program, trying to have some sense of logic for what I’m saying – We wouldadvertise in the New Yorker or the New York Times. We would take full pages in the Times magazine sectionsaying, “Is your home picture poor?” [MS. BERMAN Laughs] You know, “You can own original works of art for onlyfive dollars.” And we’d key the ads with a coupon. The coupon would come into our gallery. We wouldn’t evenopen it. It would say, “Box NYT6, NYT4, New York Times, or NY –” Whatever. We had all these codes. All of itwould go to the mailroom, who would tally what came in from each ad. And they would then send out acatalogue, rather than a supplement. And a catalogue looked like this.

Now, this is one I did, six-oh-five. And what it would consist of would be all the prints that we had put in oursupplements that hadn’t sold out. So we would then re-catalogue it, and hopefully, eventually sell out.Eventually, this catalogue would become obsolete, because we’d be selling out too many and it was silly. We’dmark – we’d have a rubber stamp. And we’d write, “Edition exhausted,” stamp it right over the picture.

MS. BERMAN: I shouldn’t get off the subject, but I just was flipping through this catalogue, and I see you’ve got aprint by Arthur Danto in there?

MR. COLE: Oh, yeah.

MS. BERMAN: I didn’t know that Arthur was a printmaker.

MR. COLE: Oh, yeah!

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm, with AAA. That’s fascinating.

MR. COLE: I— I met Arthur when he was still sort of an artist, and before he became the critic-philosopher.

MS. BERMAN: Right.

MR. COLE: And that little print on top – Let me look at that again. Yeah, the little one on top as one of – Oh, didthat sell! I think that’s Susie, his daughter.

MS. BERMAN: Well, it’s a child –

MR. COLE: Yeah. Well, those weren’t all five – those were now ten dollar prints, you see. That happened when Itook over in ‘58.

MS. BERMAN: Ok, well, I didn’t mean to interrupt you, but I –

MR. COLE: That’s alright, but it gave you the flavor of what we were doing.

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm. Well, it’s also a name I – I did not expect to see there, so it’s – it’s very eclectic. Anyway,this mailroom operation sounds absolutely –

MR. COLE: It was amazing. Then we would cut a stencil on these – And these were NPs, new purchasers. Andwe’d have an NP-1, 2, 3. Because every year, those who had never bought would become obsolete. We wouldmail them occasionally, just hoping they would nibble back. And everything was coded on the order forms, onthe stencils, so that when the order forms came in, we would analyze – The letter P at the bottom right of theorder form would mean it’s a purchaser. Then we’d check on the NPs and the non-purchasers and removepurchasers. So we would know what lists, and the cost of mailing, and whether it was worth mailing to a list likethat, and what they were really interested in. It was really fascinating, in a sense, the scale at which we wereoperating back in 1946, ‘7, ‘8, ‘9.

MS. BERMAN: Well, to think there would be fifty to a hundred thousand people, not just the population beingsmaller, but the group who would be interested in art, the pool was much smaller.

MR. COLE: Oh, yes. We’d rent our lists and get money for that, through Book of the Month Club, or to some

record company or something like that. We’d always see what the mailing was before we’d ok that. But you haveto realize that that operation was one of three parts of Associated American Artists. The reason – I know thatoperation. Besides my doing the catalogues for the gallery and the mail, getting the artists, selecting the works,which I worked with them on, keeping records of ads, and placing ads, and all this, besides – Well, usually, theplacing of ads, we’d have a budget come in from Schwab and Beatty, and they’d say, “This is for Septemberthrough December,” for 1947. And it’d be approved, and they’d take over from there.

But I also was Mary Ashland. Mary Ashland was the lady that you wrote to for all your problems or all yourcorrespondence. And anything to do with mail order, I would get. And I would have a secretary, to whom I’ddictate. We didn’t have machines; or if we did, we didn’t use ‘em. And I’d dictate answers to these – I’d probablyanswer ten, fifteen letters a day. Eventually, it got so big we hired somebody to do Mary Ashlandcorrespondence.

I would also have museums come in to look at our prints. I remember Bill Lieberman getting a supplement andcoming in and buying a few of these five dollars prints for the Museum of Modern Art. A lot of the Rockefellerfamily started buying prints there. Sandy Smith still swears that his first thing art – work of art he ever bought,he bought from AAA. And when I’m at a fair, I guarantee at least 50 or 100 people come up to me during thecourse of a fair and say, “I bought my first print.” And there’s no question that it started so many peoplecollecting. And of course, in the forties, people collected because they couldn’t afford paintings. So we’d losecollectors as the affluent, more affluent disappeared. But we had a real core of steady collectors. Prints was whatthey wanted, and that’s all they wanted. And of course, I lived – have lived through the days where the print isno longer a second class citizen now, thanks to people like Picasso and [Marc] Chagall and Jasper Johns and afew others.

But I was saying the AAA was divided into three major parts. One was the mail order. Two was the gallery andthe gallery operation. And the third was called special services. And that is when we would try to getcorporations to use art in some way or another. Like Brown and Bigelow, a calendar. Or playing cards. I canremember Grant Wood playing cards of the fruits and the vegetables and the wild flowers on the playing cards. Ican remember Grant Wood placemats. Reeves was incredibly creative. I mean, he went on the Medici role of artwas – could be used anywhere. I think the most brilliant thing he came up with was using art as a publicityvehicle for department stores. And I think the first one was in St. Louis, Scruggs, Vandervoort, [and] Barney, fora hundred thousand dollars. It was a huge amount of money! I mean, in one fell swoop, a hundred thousanddollars, they would get fifteen or twenty artists that would go into Missouri and would paint aspects. I rememberLawrence Beall Smith did the city; Aaron Bohrod did St. Louis; Peter Hurd did the ranches and the center part.We wanted to get Benton to do something and he – That was our falling out with Benton. Benton felt: How can aguy from Chicago paint Missouri? He wouldn’t know Missouri. And he – It made all the newspapers, that thewhole project was a farce, getting people from New York and all this around the country to come in and try tointerpret what Missouri was, and only Missouri artists should really be used. And then Reeves kinda said, “Thatmeans if you have an opera, you want only Missouri singers; if you have a concert, you want only Missourimusicians. How ridiculous this is.”

Anyway, Benton was pooh-poohed in the long run. And they would then get a total of about sixty, eightypaintings, plus all the preparatory drawings. And this would circulate throughout their state. And reams ofpublicity! I mean, any time it got to a college, a university, a museum or whatever, it was reviewed, it was this.Scruggs, Vandervoort, Barney Collection, their collection, their collec – So for their hundred thousand dollars,they got almost a million dollars worth of advertising.

And the next buyer was JL Hudson in Detroit, and the last was Gimbel’s in Pennsylvania. And I have a feelingthat at that point, guys like Jackson Pollock, Mark Rothko, Franz Kline, and a few others, were suddenlybecoming noticed. And somewhere around ‘49 or ‘50, the American scene, and the artists represented by AAAjust were no longer of any interest whatsoever. It just stopped. Where every museum in the country had beenbuying – We had gotten all the top prizes at the Pennsylvania Academy Annual or the National AcademyAnnuals, all our artists were all represented. The Library of Congress, they had their Pennel fund and hadannuals. And out of the ten top prints selected for prizes, six would be AAA five dollar prints. It –

But when it died, it died. And somewhere around – I’m trying to remember. I think I left AAA in fifty – I’d have tolook up records, but I – I think I left AAA around 1950, which I don’t put in my bio. And I went to work in themenswear business for five years. AAA was taken over by Albert Landry. And – Well, actually, Reeves struggledwith it for several years. Oh, what am I saying? I went back in ‘58. So it must’ve been ‘53 that I left. Can’timagine what happened in those late forties, early fifties. The mail order did stay up pretty well, and there wasbusiness there. But I went in the menswear business, which my father was in; and five years later, I took overAAA. Reeves was then the president of a greeting card company called Russkraft. And he called me to comeback to Associated American Artists in 1958. And life begins at forty; that’s how old I was. And what did I takeover? I took over a mailing room at 42nd Street. I took over 17,000 unsold five dollar prints. – And that’s it.

All the paintings and everything else belonged to Albert Landry, who was running Associated American Artists.So suddenly, there were two Associated American Artists. There was the print department, and there was Albert.And Albert finally just changed it to the Albert Landry Gallery, because it was stupid. And Reeves evidentlyowned the name Associated American Artists. And I started from nothing. I rented a floor-through at 605 FifthAvenue. I seem to remember something like seven or eight thousand a year. And – hung in the front gallery – Ihad two offices, and then a gallery space. I hung some of the old AAA prints. And then I had a shipping room,and then a mailing room in back. I consolidated; we gave up 42nd Street, so I consolidated everything.

And then I started contacting artists. I got a hold of Luigi Lucioni; I remember Raphael Soyer, Joe Hirsch. Iremember having – At this point, all these artists had their own different galleries. Lucioni was with Milch; Hirschwas with Herman Baron at ACA; Soyer was at ACA, I think.

MS. BERMAN: Yeah, ‘cause Bella started at ACA, right?

MR. COLE: Oh, yeah. And then she took Soyer when she formed Bischoff. Anyway, I contacted the artists. And Iprinted editions of 250, ten dollars; I put out my first catalogue. And it was very well received, and we were inbusiness. Actually, we never lost money. Even in 1958, I managed to pay the salaries and pay the rent andmake a few dollars. So anyhow –

And then as it grew, I went to Europe – about 1959, ‘60, I took my first trip – and would buy Chagalls and[Auguste] Renoirs, Picassos, God knows what all. I remember I have a diary of my first trip, of which I spentseven thousand dollars. [Laughs] God, I’d buy a single print today and don’t think about it. And brought backmultiples of things; so twenty Renoir re-strikes, twenty of this, twenty of that. And catalogued, and I got some[James McNeill] Whistlers from Harry Katz, and that went around. And added on a whole new dimension in ourcatalogues. But I must – Ah, you see, this is the trouble with trying to do this from memory; you miss things, andit’s hard to track back.

But in 1947, I think it was, we put out a special catalogue, which contained Rembrandts, Whistlers, [Albrecht]Durers, [Jean Baptiste-Camille] Corot, [Jean-Francois] Millet, Picasso and Lautrec. And I – I must try to dig that upand find for you, because it’s fascinating to see the prices. But those catalogues, I remember I went to BillCollins, who subsequently became director of the Clark Museum, but Bill was at Knoedler’s, and asked if I couldhave a Rembrandt to catalogue. And he’s sitting in front of a counter, almost that big, and he says, “Which onedo you want? These are all Rembrandts.” I mean, I’m not exaggerating, five, ten, fifteen, twenty, thirty to fortysolander boxes filled with Rembrandts. And I said, “I have no idea. Something like a hundred dollars, maybe.” SoI remember the first one was a Gold Weigher, a little print. And he showed me six of them. And this was 75dollars, this was a 90, this was a hundred and twenty five, this was a hundred and twenty five, this was twohundred and fifty. I said, “How can they all have different prices?” He said, “Look at them!” [MS. BERMANLaughs] And, you know, “Don’t you see, this is very late and light, and this is crisp, this is perfect.” Anyway, Iborrowed a hundred and twenty five dollar one. I think he gave me fifty dollars off on sale. And it was cataloguedamong all the others I mentioned. And I remember getting a call from Michigan, “I wanna buy that Rembrandt.”

MS. BERMAN: Who did you get it from?

MR. COLE: Somebody in Michigan.

MS. BERMAN: Oh.

MR. COLE: What excitement! We had a sold a print by mail for a hundred and twenty five dol – And aRembrandt! Then, shortly thereafter, hour later, I get another call. So I call up Bill Collins. I said, “Do you haveanother I could have for a hundred and twen –” “Yes.” Third call, fourth call; finally, he said, “Mr. Cole,Rembrandt is dead, you know.” [MS. BERMAN Laughs] Yeah, but – Those catalogues were really seminal. Whilesome of the auction houses in Europe had been auctioning this material from the 1900s or earlier, nobody hadever gone to customers, private like this, across the country. And that was some excitement.

In 1959, ‘60, I sort of formed a umbrella called Associated International Artists, which then allowed me to startpublishing artists from all over the world, as well as some of the stars. I remember going to Curt Valentin to geta Rembrandt— a Picasso. Just gotten in one of Three Graces. And he got five of them, because he was on thePicasso distribution, 50 edition. And he said, “How many of these do you want?” And I said, “Well, I’d like one tocatalogue.” I said, “How much is it?” And he said “75 dollars.” I said, “That much?” I didn’t sell one! And Ibrought it back to him and I said, “I’m sorry, we didn’t sell it.” He said, “Why don’t you buy it? I’ll let you have itfor 35 dollars.” And I said, “I don’t have the money.” That print today is probably eight to twelve, fifteenthousand dollars. Yeah. But I was selling Chagalls for 80 dollars, the large suite Picassos for a hundred, ahundred and a quarter. Yeah. And usually, you could get three or four of the same print.

MS. BERMAN: So the audience was growing more sophisticated. You know?

MR. COLE: That was the beginning of the print boom, the sixties. That was the beginning of the artist makinglarger prints, selling them for 25, 40, 50. [Gabor] Peterdi, [Mauricio] Lasansky. It was a period where theprintmakers had their own world; they had the biennial in Brooklyn every year – or the annual in Brooklyn everyyear. And they did fine. It was – it was a moment of time that – And Associated American Artists’ onlycompetition was Weyhe Gallery, which by the way, is right up here. When [Carl] Zigrosser was there and – Well,maybe he left. I think – I forget her name. But, you know – And of course, Weyhe had [Georges] Rouaults andChagalls and all that material, too. And Downtown Gallery had people like Stuart Davis, Curt Valentin had[Lyonel] Feininger. Feiningers were fifteen bucks a pieces; Stuart Davises were fifteen dollars. And Edith[Halpert] – And she also had [Rinaldo] Cuneo; she – she never showed them. Never. She was too busy trying tosell a drawing for a hundred bucks.

Anyway, I’ve gotten us up to about the early sixties.

MS. BERMAN: That’s what you think. [Laughs] So I actually – I wanna track back – I mean, I’m only gonna – Letme see how – I wonder if this might –

MR. COLE: I know I have to stop in about ten minutes, because I have somebody coming to look [MS. BERMAN:Right] at some Milton Avery.

What I’ll try to do between now and the next time is start putting together some of these catalogues and justgiving ‘em to you for the Archives. You might have ‘em; I don’t know.

MS. BERMAN: Well, some of the Associated American Artist papers were microfilmed, so we may; but it’s – it’sfine to have some –

MR. COLE: Well, these are the physical catalogues that were published, and I’ve got a stack of ‘em; I’ll put ‘emtogether, and you decide what you wanna keep or what you don’t.

MS. BERMAN: Why – why did Reeves Lewenthal leave the gallery?

MR. COLE: I think Reeves was – There just wasn’t enough money in it. I think rents started up. I mean, I think wewere renting 711 Fifth for something like ten thousand a year. Today that space would be close to a million. Ithink the artists were getting dissatisfied. There weren’t sales, they weren’t making money. Reeves had literallysupported these artists. He – One of our biggest clients was Abbott Laboratories. And they put out a publicationcalled What’s New, on medical things. And it was probably one of the outstanding medical publications put outby a pharmaceutical company. And the illustrations. If a woman was taking a certain pill because she waspregnant, there’d be a Raphael Soyer woman, pregnant woman, and all these, and— and fees were gotten forall this.

Abbott stopped. There was no more future in the department store thing; it had sort of run its course or theenergy wasn’t there. And the art world changed. And he [Lewenthal] went into various things. He went into – Hewore so many hats, he – First was the gallery. He started when he was 24 years old. He was a public relationsguy. He – he represented, I think, a guy named [Douglas] Chandor, who was the world’s famous portrait artist atthe time.

MS. BERMAN: Oh, he [Douglas Chandor] did Roosevelt; he did all the hands of Roosevelt down in the NationalPortrait Gallery.

MR. COLE: Well, Reeves was his public relations guy. And he was doing so well, you know – Early twenties, hewas making deposits in his bank of fifty and a hundred and two hundred dollars at a time. You know, what’s hedoing? And then he took ill. And I think for several months – And then he conceived the five dollar idea. 1934, theheight of the Depression. And his insurance man put up the money, and became an albatross too, because – Hisname was Mory [ph] – I just heard from a daughter. It won’t come to me.

Anyway, Reeves had to pay him off every month. Reeves, of course, lived a fairly flamboyant life. He had abeautiful apartment on 71st and Madison, in that apartment house that goes from 70th to 71st on the east sideof the street. And I know Harry Abrams lived in that building. I remember some member of the New Deal cabinetwas in that building, friends of my parents. And he had a country place. But when things tightened up, he haddivorced his wife, and he – he just retrenched, and he went into this greeting card business, and then hedropped that after a while; he went into mining, coal mining, West Virginia. And when he died, that’s what hewas doing. But, you know, he was a good friend of the Alan brothers. In fact, the memorial services for Reeveswas held in their office.

MS. BERMAN: The Alan brothers?

MR. COLE: Charlie Alan and – multi-trillionaires, you know. They’re still around. One of the – one of the sons runs

some big motion picture company. Oh, there was a whole thing in the magazine section of the Times years agoabout this very quiet family. I – I’ve been to those offices with Reeves. It was in 711 Fifth. On the fourth or fifthfloor. They had the entire floor. And it was their personal trading floor. With people at [inaudible] desks and allthe – Amazing. Wealth, real wealth. [Phone rings]

MS. BERMAN: I think that this is probably a good time to stop.

MR. COLE: Ok.

[BEGIN TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE]

MS. BERMAN: This is Avis Berman, continuing the oral history with Sylvan Cole on July 11th, 2000, at his galleryat 101 West 57th Street.

And we will be going back to the early days of Associated American Artists. But first, I think we need a little bit ofbiographical housekeeping first, which is would you state the names of your wives, when you were married andwhen you were divorced, the second one, when you were married and, you know, when she died, the third one,and – and the names, and when your children were born.

MR. COLE: Oh, dear. I don’t have this to memory. I was married in – first time, in May 1942. Or it could’ve been‘43. At Fort Washington, Maryland. I was at that post called Fort Washington. And it was along the Potomac, andit is the fort that supposedly the guns were spiked when the Washington – when the British came up to sackWashington. We got married in a chapel there. I marred Vivian Vanderpool, V-A-N-D-E-R P-O-O-L, who was bornin Norman, Oklahoma. And she had been working in Washington with the OSS, Office of Strategic Services, andwas working with “Wild Bill” Donovan, who was the general in charge. And all of whatever she was doing was topsecret.

Nancy Cole was born in Fort Sam Houston Texas, at Brooke General Hospital, in 1945. Right, 1945. In May. Andthe second child, Robert Vanderpool Cole, was born in New Rochelle, New York in March of 1947. And theyoungest, James Michael Cole, was born in Port Chester, New York in March of 1949. I was divorced from Vivianin 1952. A Mexican divorce. Flew down with my wife-to-be, Lillyan. And we were each divorced from ourrespective spice [MS. BERMAN Laughs] in Tijuana, and married by the same judge.

Lillyan died in October 1987, and in December of 1998, I married Mary Rowena Myers, M-Y-E-R-S, in New York ata Catholic chapel on First Avenue and 55th Street.

MS. BERMAN: What was Lillyan’s maiden name?

MR. COLE: Spurber [ph] – No, that was her married name.

MS. BERMAN: Spurber was her married name.

MR. COLE: Yeah, what was her maiden name? It’ll come to me later.

MS. BERMAN: Ok. Now, did Lillyan have anything to do with the art world?

MR. COLE: Lillyan, I met at Associated American Artists. She was assistant to Reeves Lewenthal, who was thefounder and director. And we fell in love and that was what happened. And she had studied painting under LeoCalapai, who was a Chicago artist and who died in Chicago; but Leo taught at Columbia, and Lillyan had takencourses there. Lillyan’s name, by – spelling is L-I-L-L-Y-A-N.

MS. BERMAN: Now, besides Lillyan, I want to go back and talk about – You had mentioned some of the peopleyou had worked with at Associated American Artists, but I kind of wanna go into what they did and sort of whothey came from, what their, you know, their contributions were and –

MR. COLE: Well, the founder of Associated American Artists was Reeves Lewenthal. Reeves was just a brilliantpublicist and public relations person. He – At about the age of 23 or ‘4 was the agent for the most importantportrait painter of the time, named Douglas Chandor. I’m not sure of his spelling, but I think it’s C-H-A-N-D-O-R.

MS. BERMAN: That’s correct.

MR. COLE: And he was, oh, a society painter and portrait painter of that time. And Reeves did public – He hadcome from Rockford, Illinois, and had news background, public relations background, and hit New York, got thisjob with Chandor. And whether this is apocryphal or not, I’m not sure, but supposedly, Reeves took ill, spentquite some time in the hospital, and during that period of 1933, ‘34, conceived the idea of Associated AmericanArtists. It was the height of the Depression. He felt that the one work of art that people could afford across thecountry was an etching or a lithograph or a woodcut, priced at five dollars. And he then proceeded to contact,

when he got out of the hospital, a group of artists, who met with him and formed Associated American Artists.

I don’t really know – Somewhere in the archives are the various artists that he met with. I have a feeling it wasArnold Blanch, Doris Lee – whether [Thomas Hart] Benton, [John Steuart] Curry and Wood met at that time orwere subsequently contacted – But they were artists from Woodstock, from Manhattan and in New York and thatarea. And they all agreed to make prints. And Reeves then peddled them to Marshall Field in Chicago, toThalheimer’s in Virginia. I think Altman’s was the outlet in New York. And he did that for, I guess, 1934. And theyran ads in the newspapers, “You can own an original work of art for only five dollars by America’s foremostartists.”

Anyway, at that point, he discovered that while the sales in Altman’s were unbelievable – to my knowledge, they– again, might be apocryphal – that they sold out the first two days, all the prints that were allotted to them.However, Thalheimer’ s in Virginia, or some department store, after several months, marked them down to threedollars and Reeves couldn’t tolerate that. So he didn’t think that was the way to sell these works of art, so hedecided to go into it by direct mail. And he produced the first catalogue of works that had been commissioned byAssociated American Artists. All were to be in editions of 250, though at the time, not full editions were printed;and some never sold too well, so the editions were a hundred and six, a hundred and eighteen. And they alsocould’ve been numbers that Reeves pulled out of his hat.

And this catalogue was started by – it was promoted by an ad in the New York Times Magazine, which was asmall ad. But according to Reeves, the figures – again, apocryphal, possibly – they got 9,000 responses, and sentout 9,000 catalogues, and they were in business. And with his ability of – of promotion, the press wasunbelievable. The press books, I think, may have been turned over to the archives or destroyed, but I do think Idid, years and years back, when I discovered them. And these were clipping books that were kept of every singlething. And they even had a clipping service that would send them the clippings of anything said aboutAssociated American Artists.

I think it was around 1939 that Reeves decided to open a public gallery. Up until then, they had been all mailorder; and then they had a small showroom on Madison and 49th Street or so, so people could come in and seethe prints, which were all framed, in the little showroom they had. And the price was five dollars, six for 25dollars. In ‘39, they opened a gallery at 711 Fifth Avenue, with a huge brouhaha. And the opening exhibition wasThomas Hart Benton.

MS. BERMAN: Well, you know, in your – I agree. You’re telling me this, all about, you know, this promotionalgenius. You have not mentioned – did he have an aesthetic sense? Did he have an eye? I mean, what was he likeas any kind of responder to art?

MR. COLE: He had an instinct. He was not a discoverer of talent. He – Art was a vehicle. This is not meant todenigrate him in anyway. He – he got on wonderfully well with the artists. He could charm any of them. He wasan absolutely charming person. I mean, he – And there were times when they’d be a pain in the neck to him,and he’d avoid them. And he’d be in conference, or he’d be out.

The offices at 711 Fifth were extraordinary. They had a huge gallery space on two levels, a mezzanine and anupper floor. And then surrounding this area of gallery were Reeves’ office, which was right at the corner of 55thStreet and Fifth Avenue. The St. Regis [Hotel] was across the street. And his office was at the corner. Then therewas a vice-president’s office – at least when I got there – which was occupied by Robert Parsons, who had justcome out of the Navy and had run the art program for the Navy, and was very familiar with many of the artists. Atrue gentleman. Very unassuming person, very kind. But truly a gentleman. Between Bob’s office and EstelleMandel’s office – And Estelle Mandel started with Reeves. She started in ‘34 or ‘35, and she, too, had – was adynamo. And Estelle’s office was in between where the two secretaries sat. And then came my office, which wasvacant when I got my job; or who had it before, I have no idea. And then came a large area, which was sort ofsecretarial, reception, and accounting. And then came all the shipping area and back office of racks for picturesand stuff like that.

MS. BERMAN: Huge space!

MR. COLE: Oh, it – I mean, I would just – Off the top of my head, it was ten or twelve thousand feet. It was thesize of Marlborough today. It was one of the largest square foot galleries, I guess. It was the entire second floorof this building, which was 711 Fifth, which today has, I think, the Coca-Cola and Warner Brothers or Disney –

MS. BERMAN: How did – how did Reeves pick the artists?

MR. COLE: They just accumulated.

MS. BERMAN : [Laughs]

MR. COLE: Mostly artist to artist to artist. I mean, the whole Woodstock gang, which was Ethel Magafan, EddieMillman, Arnold Blanch, Doris Lee – I think Sigmund Menkes was up there. One of the great things we had –persons we had in the gallery was a woman named Pegeen Sullvian. And Pegeen was just a household name inthe American art world. She was director of the gallery. And she also was very close to George Grosz. In fact, Istill think some of the nudes that George Grosz painted were Pegeen. Especially up in the cape.

But Pegeen also got a lot of the foreign artists – Sigmund Menkes, Joseph Floch, George Grosz – just because shewas acquainted with so many of the artists. And Marion Greenwood, for example, knew – Her portrait waspainted by [Alexander] Calder, by [Max] Beckmann, by goodness knows how many artists. She was just a mostgorgeous, gorgeous woman, and – My feeling when I got there was just in awe of all these artists. The roster wasroughly 60 artists, which was a huge roster of artists. And all of them were established; they were not naive orbeginning artists. Raphael Soyer, Chaim Gross – just on and on. And they were all basically representational. Butthese artists, this roster won all the prizes. They won the gold medals in Chicago and the gold medals inPhiladelphia, the gold medals at the National Academy. It was a lock – And the only artists that were not part ofAssociated American Artists were those in the stable of Edith Halpert. And they were the avant garde, which wasa little ahead of what Associated American Artists was. They had Stuart Davis, they had Ben Shahn, [Louis]Gugliemi.

MS. BERMAN: Rattner.

MR. COLE: Who?

MS. BERMAN: I think she had Rattner.

MR. COLE: Abe Rattner. Well, she also had Jack Levine.

MS. BERMAN: Right, and she had [Charles] Sheeler.

MR. COLE: And, but she did have Sheeler, and – That’s right. And – But the Downtown Gallery, I don’t rememberbeing a big deal, for some reason. It may be I was prejudiced in those late forties years of AAA. But you know, itwas such – ‘46, when I got there – ‘46, ‘47, ‘48 were unbelievable years. I mean, the gallery was constantlybusy. The artists were begging for work. Beyond just the easel paintings and the graphics. I mean, there was a –The gallery had paintings. The gallery also had a small section for the prints that were being published in thefive dollar program. The gallery also was commissioning artists to do works or renderings for people like AbbottLaboratories, or fabrics, a big – Lowenstein Fabrics – Aaron Bohrod did a repeat pattern, sort of a trompe l’oeilpattern. And it sold thousands of yards! And it was the first time that there was a royalty on yards per sold. Imean, this was Reeves’ genius. He was able to use art anywhere. Lampshades, neckties, playing cards,calendars. He – Anything that he could – Placemats. Anything that he could use – He would go to thesemanufacturers and say, “It’s prestige for you to do this, or that, or the other thing.” And they would then get thecopyrights and – or the reproduction rights for quite a fee, which the gallery would then take its third, or 40%commission, and the balance would go to the artist. And artists were begging for commissions. I mean, therewere letters – I can recall artists like George Schreiber saying, “I’d love to – I can use the money; can I getsomething from Abbot Laboratory?” And George would get some sort of pittance of a job to do. I would say thatthinking back as to who art – which artists really became great, great American artists, beyond Benton, Curryand Wood, there were not very many. Certainly, George Grosz. But he was part of the foreign contingent,refugee contingent. Adolph Dehn, [Arnold] Blanch, [Doris] Lee. History’s gonna have to see what happens tosome of them. Joe Hirsch. I’m sure – Again in the archives, I can remember lists being published of the roster ofAssociated American Artists. It was during my time – When I got there, there was a gallery in Chicago; and thensubsequently, they opened a gallery in Beverly Hills. The Chicago gallery, I think, was closed around 1947 or ‘48,because it was not doing that well. And the theory being that people in Chicago did not wanna buy art inChicago, they wanted to come to New York to buy art. And they closed that gallery. In California, the wholeHollywood contingent was gathered together for various boards or whatever and – I don’t know, I rememberKing Vidor, I remember, oh – Trying to think of –

Reeves also then got involved with bringing in some of the Impressionists and perhaps one of the most famous –And again, I won’t remember everything, but the theory is that he did discover this[Vincent] Van Gogh of a self-portrait. Self-portrait by Candlelight. He’s in a bar, the car broke down, he’s lighting a cigarette; and there is thisVan Gogh by – completely Reeves’ story.

MS. BERMAN: I don’t quite understand it. He found a Van Gogh?

MR. COLE: In Eur – in France.

MS. BERMAN: Oh, in France.

MR. COLE: Outside of Paris.

MS. BERMAN: And his car broke down –

MR. COLE: Car broke down.

MS. BERMAN: So he couldn’t get –

MR. COLE: He goes into a bar to make a phone call, he lights up, and there he sees this painting.

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm. Did he buy it?

MR. COLE: He bought it, brings it back. And I’m trying to remember who bought it. He became very friends withDr. [Jacob] de la Faille. And Dr. de la Faille authenticated it, and he was the expert. And there were other experts– Sandburg or somebody – says it wasn’t a real – It’s an amazing story. I think the painting was sold to someCalifornia major magnate. I – Eugene Salberg or something like that [the painting was actually sold to WilliamGoetz].

MS. BERMAN: Irving Salberg.

MR. COLE: Irving Salberg. I wish I – I can’t remember what – But when it got questioned, he returned it, and itwas in the lawyer’s office. Guy named Ross; I can’t remember his first name. Roth or Ross. Who was an attorneyfor Associated American Artists. And a secretary opened a file drawer and tore the painting. So the painting wassent to Holland for restoration. And – Then it was a question when it came back. Duty? No duty? What’s thestory? So according – Then the U.S. government tried – used the first chemical tests on a painting and found thatthe pigments were of the time of Van Gogh, and since he died penniless, who would fake a Van Gogh? Especiallya self-portrait? So to this day, I don’t know whether it’s real or not. I mean, I – I don’t know if it’s accepted; Idon’t even know where it is.

MS. BERMAN: Well, maybe it’s in Philadelphia, the Van Gogh: Face to Face portrait show [Philadelphia Museumof Art, October 22, 2000- January 14, 2001].

MR. COLE: I don’t know; it’d be interesting. But this was just giving you the breadth of Reeves. I mean, hestarted getting paintings all the way from Cezanne to Van Gogh to feed his Hollywood clients.

MS. BERMAN: Well, just out of curiosity, now, it – You know, a lot of these artists had other – were represented byother galleries, had other dealers; but it was alright – they were allowed –

MR. COLE: Oh, no, they were exclusively AAA.

MS. BERMAN: Really? Ok, there was –

MR. COLE: It was sort of a pirating thing. I mean, he got Soyer, Hirsch from Herman Baron at ACA [AmericanContemporary Artists]. I mean, there were many dealers that – Well, whether they volunteered to leave or theywere coerced – I have a feeling everybody wanted to be with AAA. They were making money as artists. ‘CauseReeves – They were not, to my knowledge, on retainers. But Reeves would find ways to either sell their work orpromote it through an exhibition, or use their talents in some commercial way. Like there was Lucky Strike ran aseries of ads of tobacco growing in the fields. And there’s one of James Chapin; there was a famous one of theguy looking down a leaf. Benton did a painting of tobacco, Chapin – I don’t know who all. And I rememberMaxwell House Coffee used a whole series of American scene paintings in their “good to the last drop,” with acup of coffee, and it’s dripping down, and a big painting of [Luigi] Lucioni or [George] Schreiber or somebody.

I mean, this was all going on when I first got there, because Estelle Mandel, who was the – Bob Parsons becameexecutive vice-president. But Estelle had been there. And so she was Vice-President in Charge of SpecialServices. And Special Services consisted of using art commercially in any – advertising or any way that it couldbe used. And she was a wiz at it. I think at that time, she was working with Ohrbach, and they did a whole seriesof paintings of New York, which are now at the Museum of the City of New York. I don’t know if they ever exhibitthem or not; probably individually, they do. But these were paintings that we used in Ohrbach ads. And thenassembled as a collection, exhibited, and then turned over to the museum.

And Estelle was working on that. It would be interesting to know the finances of that period, but I don’t. I mean, Ihave a feeling two to three thousand dollars for a painting in an ad was really good money.

MS. BERMAN: Did Estelle have an art background?

MR. COLE: Somewhat. Public school and Hunter. A real dynamo person. Big woman. Wonderful. I mean, she wasmy boss, and I adored her. I mean, she was a very, very special woman. She was a single lady for a long periodof her life. And then she ended up marrying a guy by the name of Ray Brock, who was a New York Times foreigncorrespondent, whose real claim to fame was 1942, ‘3. He got a double byline on the front page of the New York

Times, and he covered Turkey and Ataturk. And he wrote a book on Ataturk. And he and Estelle had a stormymarriage. She sort of managed him the way she did so many of the artists. [MS. BERMAN Laughs] And Iremember they – As she got money, she ended up with a flat in a brownstone, a beautiful flat, on 80th betweenMadison and Park. And then with the money from Ataturk, she bought a house in Hillsdale, New York — a bigdeck around — and I can remember going up there and staying as a guest and— and getting a poker game upwith people coming from Woodstock, because it was just across the river, and Fletcher Martin, Julio de Diego anda group of others all coming over to play poker.

MS. BERMAN: We haven’t discussed Robert Parsons.

MR. COLE: Well, Robert Parsons was sort of, as I say, quiet, dignified. He was the – I don’t know how to phrasethis, but he was the gentile elegance for Associated American Artists. And Robert would be used as – in thatcapacity for the certain types of clients that he would be perfect for. He married the receptionist at AAA, whowas just the doll of the world. Farenhorse [ph], what was her first name? I still talk to her. And I was an usher atthat wedding. And – This is a real blank I’m pulling; I mean, this is such a close friend of mine. Her daughter’sLinda.

Anyway, he then got the post of director of the Jacksonville Art Museum, [MS. BERMAN: The Cummer] which was–

MS. BERMAN: The Cummer Art Gallery?

MR. COLE: No. Jacksonville Museum of Art, or something. And he – It was in the process of being built. And hewent down, it was built, and I think he died the opening day, or the day before, of a heart attack. And – Hiswidow still lives in Jacksonville; I still keep up with her. I’m just so amazed that I can’t get a first name out. Wewere all so close, and –

MS. BERMAN: Did Parsons have an art background, or –?

MR. COLE: Yes.

MS. BERMAN: Of course –

MR. COLE: He had an art background, and he ran the art program for the Navy [MS. BERMAN: Oh, that’s right.] inWorld War II.

MS. BERMAN: Was that combat artists, or –?

MR. COLE: Combat artists.

MS. BERMAN: In the Navy –

MR. COLE: Yeah, he commissioned them and sent them to the various places.

MS. BERMAN: You know, going back to – You said you didn’t have the Edith Halpert artists; well, that’s becauseyou would’ve had to – You know, she never would’ve given up her –

MR. COLE: Well, she also had Hofmann, I think. Hans Hofmann, yeah. No, she didn’t.

MS. BERMAN: She never had Hans Hofmann.

MR. COLE: No, she didn’t have Hofmann.

MS. BERMAN: Hofmann – I don’t think Hofmann had a gallery in the ‘30s.

MR. COLE: Well, there were other good galleries. There was Perido[ph], there was – That woman, what’s hername? The other one besides Edith. Elegant woman.

MS. BERMAN: Well, you’re not thinking about Eleanor Ward’s –

MR. COLE: Right.

MS. BERMAN: She was post-World War II. [Phone rings; tape stops, re-starts]

MS. BERMAN: So I – See, what I was trying to get at is that people who were in Associated Artists were in ittotally; they wouldn’t have had another gallery, so –

MR. COLE: No, they were exclusive.

MS. BERMAN: Exactly. I didn’t know if they just had prints with Associated American Artists, because –

MR. COLE: Oh, the artists that had prints were freelance. I mean, we did not put them on our roster, unless theywere somebody like Adolph Dehn that also did lithographs. I think Gordon Grant was on our roster. I know LuigiLucioni was on our roster. But there were many, many artists that were doing prints that maybe did one for usor maybe three and just – That was a separate – separate operation entirely.

MS. BERMAN: Right, ‘cause I thought that – I’m not sure. I thought that Lucioni at one point may have been withMilch or Brand[?] or –

MR. COLE: He was with Milch before he was with AAA, and he went back to Milch.

MS. BERMAN: Right. Now, also, you never had Rockwell Kent?

MR. COLE: No. Nor did we ever commission him on anything. I mean, there were lots of artists that you’d thinkwe would’ve used that we didn’t. I don’t know how haphazard it was. I have a feeling that most of the print thingcame with artists bringing in proofs, and going into the proof box. And if – I don’t know whether Reeves actuallypursued some of the other artists, or whether we’d just pick ‘em up. I mean, I know Ernest Fiene was on theroster, a painter, and Lily Harmon; they also did prints for the gallery. Adolph Dehn did.

MS. BERMAN: You know, someone like –

MR. COLE: Even Gwen Lux, who was a sculptor, she did one or two prints for the program.

MS. BERMAN: So you never had [John] Sloan, for example.

MR. COLE: No, we didn’t have Sloan. We did have Marsh. Marsh did two prints. We had [Utagawa] Kuniyoshi; hedid one – [MS. BERMAN: Oh.] which was an Edith Halpert artist. [Reginald] Marsh was Rehn.

MS. BERMAN: Right. So that was –

MR. COLE: We never had Sheeler, never Stuart Davis, never Feininger. Oh, there were –

MS. BERMAN: You had [Louis] Lozowick.

MR. COLE: We had Lozowick. Not on our roster, but as a – just for prints. Now, who he was with, I have no idea.

But we have [William] Gropper on the roster, and also did prints. Joe Hirsch, both.

MS. BERMAN: Let’s see. Is there anyone else that we should talk about who was on, you know, who workedthere?

MR. COLE: Well –

MS. BERMAN: Wait a minute, your mic – Just a minute, your microphone’s just slipped. Oh, I see what you’vedone. Ok, here. Ok. Anyway –

MR. COLE: No, the other – I remember the gallery staff. I remember there was a fellow named – I just had hisname and I lost it. Bobby Price. And he and Pegeen were a team. They adored each other. And Bobby was partof the sales in the gallery. I think Pegeen retired. She had a daughter who she felt needed attention. She wasmarried to a concert violinist, wonderful guy. And – But Pegeen was the real Bohemian of the world. And whenshe retired, a man by the name of George Fortson, F-O-R-T-S-O-N, became gallery director.

I should go back a little, because in 1946, ‘47, shortly after I got there in March of ‘46, I would say two or threemonths later, Andre Emmerich became part of the gallery and worked with me. And the two of us were quasi-mail order and quasi-promoters. Both of us would go to churches and schools and give little talks on collectingart. And then shortly thereafter, maybe six months later or so, Frank Perls joined the gallery. And Frank was justunbelievable. I mean, I still remember – There was an artist whose name I’ve forgotten – Reeves would oftenshow artists that were just dreadful. Because the husband was a big collector, or the husband had this, or the –whatever. And I remember he showed, in the lower gallery, a woman who did Noah’s arc. And it had pairs ofanimals, all going up to it, on each side of the walls, to the end, which was Noah’s arc. And when Frank washired, I was to take him around and introduce him and show him what all the gallery – where the stacks were,bookkeeping, everything. And I remember when we got down to the lower gallery – I think her name wasSchweibel[ph] or something like that. And Frank goes around, and so he’s spitting. [Makes spitting sounds] He’sspitting as he goes down. I was in utter shock. [MS. BERMAN Laughs] And anyway, Frank ended up taking overthe California gallery. And when that closed, he then was in business for himself out in California.

MS. BERMAN: So that’s how the Frank –

MR. COLE: That’s how the Frank Perls Gallery started. Andre didn’t stay very long. I think he then went into hispre-Columbian – His family were diamond merchants or something out of Belgium or Holland, and – Shortlythereafter, he opened his own gallery and – with the pre-Columbian and a roster – I think that’s when he gotHelen Frankenthaler and a few other artists.

MS. BERMAN: Well, that’s interesting. I had no idea he was ever in the mail –

MR. COLE: Well, of course, Helen Frankenthaler was also – did her junior year at Bennington working at thegallery.

MS. BERMAN: Oh, really?

MR. COLE: Yeah, when I was there.

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm. Well, what was she like?

MR. COLE: Hardly remember. She was just a little girl. Sat in the gallery desk and – sort of learning thecommercial area of that. I think she did some odds and ends. You’d have to ask Helen. But that’s – Helen and Ihad known each other before, because I knew her older sister Marjorie. When I was going to Horace Mann, Iwould know Marjorie or date her, and – Helen was then just a youngster. [MS. BERMAN: Was she –] Nine yearsold, when I –

MS. BERMAN: Was – was Helen painting when – when you met her?

MR. COLE: She was at Bennington [Bennington College, Bennington, Vermont]. I’m sure her junior year she hadbeen painting or was painting.

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm.

MR. COLE: I don’t think she ever thought much of the paintings that were in the gallery in her junior year. Imean, I could almost figure out about when that was, was probably ‘47, ‘48. I was class of ‘39; she’s ten yearsyounger than I – So forty – I’m probably right on the button.

MS. BERMAN: So she was also probably seeing what was going on at Betty Parsons and all of the other, the – theaction –

MR. COLE: I’m sure.

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm. But that— that did not immediately touch Associated American Artists, those kinds of –the –

MR. COLE: Didn’t even know it was going on. I was once on a panel for the 50th anniversary of the Museum ofModern Art. They put together an interesting panel of – for discussing prints. And I think there was Albert Reese,myself, Bob Motherwell, and somebody else, I don’t remember. And all I remember is Bob talking about the[Stanley William] Hayter Atelier 17 in New York and the interaction of Pollock, Motherwell, all making their firstprints. And I remember saying – We were talking about this era of the forties. And I remember saying, “I can’tbelieve that Bob and I were in the same city.” Because my view of what I was doing in that period of time wasjust – I didn’t even know that existed. I mean, I didn’t know about the Cedar Bar; I didn’t know until years later.Years later.

MS. BERMAN: Well, besides your art, you were also sort of married with several children. And then also, youprobably weren’t hanging out at night.

MR. COLE: No, that’s true. I mean, I did not go to many galleries. I did go to Knoedler, I did go to Kennedy, thoseboth –

[BEGIN TAPE TWO, SIDE TWO]

MR. COLE: – World War II ended in ’46 and here we are. I’m fresh out of the service; a lot of the artists are out ofthe service. A lot of the established dealers are mostly into European material. Bill Hayter is in New York, andhe’s got a pretty thriving print operation going. He certainly had a lot of the artists that came to him them. Hehad – Miró was here, Chagall was in New York, [Fernand] Leger – No. Was Leger in New York?

MS. BERMAN: Briefly.

MR. COLE: Yeah.

MS. BERMAN: But he went back immediately after the war ended.

MR. COLE: But some stayed. I remember meeting Miró. Reeves got Miró to make wrapping paper, ‘cause – [MS.BERMAN Laughs] I’m not kidding! Wonderful wrapping paper.

MS. BERMAN: Well, Miró probably could’ve used the money then, [MR. COLE: Well –] when he was here.

MR. COLE: It was amazing, who he got. I mean, I remember Miró coming in the gallery. He was a little, short guy.Pixie. Oh, yeah, Reeves – His – his imagination was endless.

MS. BERMAN: Now, you – did you meet Chagall while he was here?

MR. COLE: No.

MS. BERMAN: Now, when did you become aware of Hayter?

MR. COLE: Probably at AAA in the early sixties. And that’s when I met him in Paris and – It – I was never – Of allthe artists – As I say, I’m I’m really a – a groupie when it comes to the artists. But of all the artists that made afriend of me, Bill Hayter was to me the most important in many ways, because he was the god of the print world.And he encouraged me, and he worked with me. He took me to the Atelier and I’d have exhibitions of thestudents that were there, and commissioned him for prints, and – It was, until he died, a most fabulousrelationship, just – I mean, I knew him when he was married to Helen Phillips, and then I went through when hewas split, and we were close enough that he’d tell me, you know, he – He’d say, “Can you buy something ofHelen’s,” you know, or, “Can you do something?” I mean, he really was such a great human being, and thenwhen he met Desiree [Moorehead] and – I’m still very close to Desiree and – But Bill Hayter made me feelimportant in the print world personally, because of his relationship to me. I – I really felt that he was the – the –the master and – Here is the man who taught [Alberto] Giacometti and Picasso and Jackson Pollock and on andon and on. And – My respect for him never waned.

I remember when Bill was 80, I think they asked me to write part of a tribute book. And I wrote a rather simplething, but in there was Roland Penrose and major writers in this book. And I guess about a year later, Bill was inNew York and we were having dinner or something, and he said, “Oh, by the way, Sylvan, I forgot to thank youfor that nice tribute you wrote.” And I said, “Oh, Bill, it was nothing.” He says, “Sylvan, I’m going to do the samething for you when you’re 80.” He was long gone. But it was a wonderful thing. Yeah, I think –

I was always very touched with most of the artists. I really cared about them; we were good social friends. Andmy life is very charmed. I mean, when I’d be in Europe, I’d see Francois Gilot, and I’d see a lot of the artists, bothlike Michael Rothenstein and Tony Gross. And then in this country, a lot of the artists were friends. Certainly,because I went to Provincetown and – We’d be there five minutes, and we’d almost be booked for three weekswith dinners or lunches or something. Sol Wilson and Dick Florsheim and that whole gang of – Chaim Gross. Imean, Reenie [ph] had this wonderful house out in the dunes – still does, I’m sure. And she would entertain ten,fifteen people twice, three times a week. Collectors or whoever was around, and dealers and – Usually, it wasthe most wonderful Jewish lobster or something. [MS. BERMAN Laughs] I mean, it was really amazing.

I can remember Lily Harmon fixing me a five pound lobster saying, “Now you’re gonna get all the lobster youever want in your life,” and my eating the claws and my eating everything. And finally, I get to the center of thelobster and I was too full to eat. [Laughs] But –

Then came my first disillusionment, which – I guess this has to all wait until everybody’s gone. Most of them aregone. But one of my closest friends was Fletcher Martin. And he was married to a wonderful writer, Jean, andlived in Woodstock, when I was close enough that I used to stay with him in Woodstock. He and Jean used tocome up and visit us in Provincetown. We had sort of a guest room. And he’d play endless games of gin rummywith Lillyan and – who was a card player, loved card playing. The two of them would play for hours. And Fletcherwould slam the cards down and, “Beat me again,” or something. And –

Then I remember Fletch coming to me one day. I had commissioned him for two or three prints. They were colorscreen prints. And then I had him do three editions of 200 prints each, 600 prints, of women on the beach –different versions or variants, different images. And they were given free to my sponsor members. I had 600sponsor members who gave us a hundred bucks a year. Sixty thousand dollars, wow. And they had specialthings, including getting a free gift. And the reaction to this gift was not good. A lot of them did not care for it.And some wanted to know if they could exchange for something, and I’d give ‘em – And I’d say – We had verygood clients. They were all good clients.

I’d say, “Ok, pick a ten dollar print that you’d like instead.” I’d exchange it. But then Fletch came to me shortly

thereafter and wanted to know about another print. And I remember saying, “Not right now. You know, I’ve stillgot a few left of this and a few left of that.” And that was the end of our friendship. And it was such a shock that Ithen understood for the first time that as a dealer, with very few exceptions, the artist was concerned as long asI could do something for them. And that was amazing, that it took me so long to learn that lesson. But oncelearned, I was very careful about the socializing from then on. I still have artist friends like Clare Romano andJohn Ross and Will Barnet from the beginning that are truly friends. They are not concerned with how much I dofor them or whatever. But even after I left AAA and started on my own, the number of artists that bothered evento come visit me dropped down to a fraction. I mean, when I was handling 600 artists over those years, I wouldsay – I would say maybe I see 30 or 40 out of the 600 anymore. Maybe two and three year spans. That’s the wayit is, I mean – And some artists that I was really close to, I –

Well, this, I guess, is part of oral history, but I remember Mario Avati, a French mezzotint artist, whom I met andsocialized with because he showed with the Weyhe Gallery. When the Weyhe Gallery changed and Mario was onhis own, he came to me at AAA. And I checked with Weyhe and I took him on. I think I commissioned him to dosome prints, I don’t remember. But he was a very well established European artist. And I gave him two shows atAAA. He was very close to Tom Hoving, who I remember coming in. And they had very good connection tocollectors. And then I think until I left AAA, I bought five of every edition. And after I left, I saw him a few times; Istill see him occasionally. But I know he was in town two weeks ago with his wife; never called. And I learnedthat from a client of mine who buys work from him.

MS. BERMAN: Mario who?

MR. COLE: Avati, A-V-A-T-I.

MS. BERMAN: Oh, ok.

MR. COLE: Mezzotint – Very extraordinary. Makes a fortune selling his work in Japan. Not well known here. He –Mezzotint is very difficult to sell in this country. And his prices are pretty high. There was a gallery on ThirdAvenue in the Sixties that handled his work and – I don’t know whether they still do or not.

MS. BERMAN: Why is mezzotint difficult to sell?

MR. COLE: It – it’s very rigid, it – it appeals – It’s the kind of a print that is cold, rigid and you respect for itsincredible black and whiteness or color, I mean – I don’t know, it’s – There are a few mezzotint artists today.There’s [inaudible], there’s Carol Wax. But some do very well. Look at Craig MacPherson, who did a mezzotint ofYankee Stadium at night for Mary Ryan and –

MS. BERMAN: I love that –

MR. COLE: Big one. And my gosh, that’s up to twelve or fifteen thousand dollars.

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm. It’s beautiful.

MR. COLE: But Craig is extraordinary, yeah. But he’s done many since, but nothing as –

MS. BERMAN: That’s – that’s his best.

MR. COLE: Yeah, that’s a terrible thing when that happens, especially – He’s done some wonderful ones since,but –

MS. BERMAN: That one’s magical.

MR. COLE: Yeah. Just – It’s very – You know, it’s fascinating when you think of, even Picasso, like theTauromachia, I mean, is obviously his major, major print. And all the prints he did since, nothing matches that;but I don’t think it ever affected his market.

MS. BERMAN: When you said working with Hayter, what did you mean by – You said, “He worked with me.”

MR. COLE: Well, I did shows with him. We’d pick student artists that we’d make a group show out of. I did oneshow with him of Hayter and his students. And Bill helped me get a Giacometti that was done, or he’d lend mesome things that he owned. And these shows, especially the one of Hayter and his – and his influence, wouldusually get me a good press. I – I – At AAA, I must say that we normally got an extraordinary press from –starting with when Hilt Kramer was there, though he wasn’t that strong on prints, but – Brian O’Doherty and –and certainly, John – certainly, John Canaday. And then John Russell. As long as that type of news critic was onthe Times, we would get six reviews a year, which was quite extraordinary for a print gallery. But you have toremember, Associated American Artists was the only exhibiting all-print gallery in, probably, history. From thetime of ‘58, when I took it over, until the time in ‘83, when I left, 25 years, we had an exhibition program, we’d

do ten, twelve shows a year. We had shows that were never even done before. [James] Ensor, [Felix] Vallaton. Imean, one man shows of major artists. Picasso, Durer, Rembrandt.

We had certain annual shows. Every summer we had an annual old masters show which went from [Giovanni]Tiepolo to Rembrandt to [Marcantonio] Raimondi, whatever. Every Christmas, we had a show of prints framed togive as gifts. But in between – Like, I remember Chagall Bible show, I remember [Georges] Rouault Miserere. And– but – Then I remember Japanese shows that I worked – we had a [Kitagawa] Utamaro, we had a Kuniyoshi. Wehad an Osaka print show. I remember the first Russian prints we showed, from the graphic workshops inLeningrad and Moscow. I worked – I had the first Art Nouveau shows of [Alphonse] Mucha and artists like that. Imean – I saw one in London, and – I worked with Estorich then and did the Russian show when they – And when Igot to Paris, there was all this Art Nouveau for nothing. I mean, I could get the famous Mucha La Plume, buytwenty posters at a time.

I remember dealers who were just now into this as wholesalers coming in and saying, “You’re selling belowwholesale.” But all the – What I think is possibly something important to me was that I kept learning. Learning,learning, learning. I mean, every artist was a new thing to learn. Ensor. Who – Nobody ever heard of him; I’dhardly ever heard of him. [Childe] Hassam. I mean, you couldn’t do this today. I mean, I would gather Hassams,I’d hide ‘em away and hide ‘em away, and finally I’d had 30 or 40 Hassams, 50, and I’d have a show. I rememberthe Hassam show – God knows how many years ago – but I remember I finally decided to have it and I scheduledit, and I forgot where I’d hidden ‘em. [Laughs] It drove me crazy! It took me three weeks to finally realize I hadhidden ‘em in an upper cabinet. I woke up in the middle of the night, I said, “I know where they are.” But – Iwould store away and plan on shows sometimes years in advance, and try to get – You needed certain prints torepresent certain artists. Like, you had to have the Lion Gardiner House with Hassam. You had to have –And –But I started with [John Taylor] Arms back in sixty-something, when I got that estate. And I still have it. I regret Ididn’t have some shows. I never had a Mann show. But I never had enough to get together. I had many StuartDavis shows, I had many Feininger shows.

MS. BERMAN: When you said about the Hassam, “Oh, you couldn’t do this today,” what did you mean?

MR. COLE: You just really – It’s not – I don’t know, to get 50 or 60 prints of Hassam within a period of a year ortwo would take a lot of – I don’t think you could just own it. I think you’ve have to borrow some and things likethat. Though at times, I did borrow; I would – I remember for the Ensor show, I got a couple of rare prints fromthe Museum of Modern Art. Yeah, I was – I was very serious about these shows, and most – I was very serious,also, about putting catalogues out for almost every show. I have a feeling the New York Public Library probablyhas a pretty complete archive of that. But even if they were only four page things –

MS. BERMAN: How did you get to know Francoise Gilot?

MR. COLE: I saw a print of hers. I used to go to the workshops at Desjourbert. I was there one day, and – I thinkDick Florsheim was working on something, or somebody was. And I saw this little lithograph of a little childsitting in a chair. And – They gave me the name of F. Gilot and her address. And I wrote Mr. Gilot. And Mr. Gilotwrote back and gave me a back – All I remember is it said Atelier Après, near Picasso. And I had no idea who shewas. And I think I commissioned a print before I knew who she was – or knew it was a she, because she signedher prints F. Gilot; never signed Francoise.

MS. BERMAN: Oh, you were probably one of the few people who just accepted her on her own merits, withoutknowing the connection.

MR. COLE: But there’s another case. I mean, Francois is here in New York now, and she’s not well. I should callher. But she never calls me. You know. As long as I’ve known her – and I’ve certainly done a lot – In fact, Iaffected a lot of her life. I mean, we were so close, when she was courting Jonas Salk, Lillyan and I would meetthem for dinner at a Russian restaurant and stuff. And he’d be holding her hand, just acting like a little puppy inlove. But – but I’ve known Claude and Paloma since they were kids; they never call. I mean, Paloma, I think Igave her the first job she ever had. She went to an auction for me to bid on some prints in Paris. Kept calling me.“Sylvan, suppose I win the print, who pays?” I said, “I pay.” [MS. BERMAN Laughs] “How do you get the moneyto me?” I said, “I pay the auction house.” [They laugh] She was so funny.

MS. BERMAN: Was she considering becoming an art dealer? Or was she sort of a runner for you, or what?

MR. COLE: She was just – just something for her to do, and – I asked her, I said, “I can’t go to the auction; I don’tspeak French. And these are some lots I’d like.” And she said, “I’ll do it.” I said, “Alright, I’ll pay you apercentage on every lot you get.” But Claude is – I mean, my son Jimmy lives in Paris, and he’s two yearsyounger than Claude. And he’s looked up Claude; he’s visited with Francois, but – Claude wrote me one day andsaid, “Jimmy shouldn’t be in Paris; he doesn’t speak French.” Of course, today he’s been there for 25 years andit’s different, but –

It’s – it’s a very complex art world structure. The artist, the dealer – And – and – You know, I’ve always bent overbackwards to help the artist. And I do it to this day. I mean, I do – Occasionally, I’ll have a personal friend say tome, “Sylvan, can you help this artist.” I say, “No, I can’t.” “Well, will you at least look at the work?” “If you makeme, I will.” And try to help, but you know, I keep saying I really am less and less helpful than I used to be.

MS. BERMAN: Well, let’s – Now, going – going backwards, we haven’t talked about some of these artists youprobably met in the forties. So let’s begin with Thomas Hart Benton. How you met, anything, you know –

MR. COLE: Benton, I met early on at the gallery. And I think I said in the previous interview that Benton and AAAhad a falling out when Reeves did that Missouri project. But then one time when I was in Provincetown, EstelleMandel was up there. And she took Lillyan and me to visit Benton in Chilmark. And we took the ferry, you know,all that stuff, and – Rita took us around, took us swimming and – In fact, these pictures here – Oh!

MS. BERMAN: I’m sorry. No, let me get it, ‘cause you’re wired.

MR. COLE: Yeah, it’s – These pictures have –

MS. BERMAN: Oh, those [inaudible].

MR. COLE: Pick ‘em up.

MS. BERMAN: Now, these are snapshots of Thomas Hart Benton and Rita. And –

MR. COLE: Yeah. Jessie may be there.

MS. BERMAN: Yes, yeah.

MR. COLE: And Estelle and my wife. Yeah, the – This is the two of us. Rita, Sylvan, Tom, Lillyan; Tom; Rita andTom. No, I don’t – This is Lillyan way in the background.

MS. BERMAN: Oh, ok.

MR. COLE: Yeah, I think Estelle took those pictures; that’s why she’s not in ‘em.

MS. BERMAN: Oh, that’s – that’s great.

MR. COLE: 1968, I think.

MS. BERMAN: Yes, well, he really was –

MR. COLE: Or ‘63?

MS. BERMAN: Well, anyway – He’s in good shape.

MR. COLE: Oh!

MS. BERMAN: He’s tiny, but he’s in good shape.

MR. COLE: He was amazing. You know, when you look at his self-portraits, you’d think he was six foot five.

MS. BERMAN: Well, that’s obvious, because he’s so short.

MR. COLE: Yeah.

MS. BERMAN: Whistler did the same thing.

MR. COLE: He was a real curmudgeon. He – Very anti-paying taxes. That was a real bane of his life, that artistsshouldn’t have to pay taxes, they contributed so much to the culture of the United States. He was a little heavyin the drinking toward the end. He would have bourbon and branch water. I remember when he was honored atthe Salmagundi Club, and I went down there for this big dinner. And I had loaned them 40 or 50 Bentons that thegallery had at the time, and they put ‘em up all around the walls. And Rita said – And then he’d come over to meand say, “Give me another drink.” So I’d go to the bar and get it. And Rita’d say, “You better water them downfrom now on.” And so I’d water ‘em and – He never noticed. But – All I remember is Sanford Low, I think, whowas head of the New Britain Museum, after the thing, suddenly said to me, “Can you make a deal, and I’ll buy‘em all.” And he did.

MS. BERMAN: These must’ve been prints?

MR. COLE: All lithographs.

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm. Sanford Low was one of his biggest supporters when other people weren’t interested inBenton.

MR. COLE: That’s right. Well, the schism came ‘48, I guess, ‘49, when – American scene died overnight. Justovernight. Suddenly nobody came in the gallery. No museums came in the gallery. Except for the print program,which was starting to falter, too. It – it – it was unbelievable that it could happen so quickly. And suddenly theMuseum of Modern Art had a Pollock show. I guess ‘48 – ‘49. And Rothko and all these – [Clyfford] Still, all thisstuff. And it just – When that – And that was the end of Associated American Artists, and the paintings, in a way.And, you know, that was a terrible period, that was – I guess at that point, I left AAA about ‘51 or ‘2 and went – Ithink I mentioned that I went into this manufacturing, and then came back in ‘58. But –

The artists besides Benton, I had met Curry, but I never got to know him. I think the artists in my young daysthat I adored were Luigi Lucioni, Gordon Grant, who was just the sweetest man in the world. I still have to findmy collection of envelopes and turn ‘em over to you, just for fun. And of course, I was madly in love with MarionGreenwood. She was absolutely the handsomest woman. A big buxom – Bobbed hair. And a perfect face. Andshe had really been around. I mean, I sort of tried to deny it, but she had slept with almost everybody. She –Diego Rivera, Max Beckmann, Alexander Calder, Ernst, on and on and on and on.

MS. BERMAN: And both sexes.

MR. COLE: Possibly, I didn’t know about that. But I think you’re right. Yeah, I remember years later cuddling upto her one time, and she said, “Oh, Sylvan, we can’t get intimate.” She said, “I’ve got scars that are tooembarrassing to show.” [MS. BERMAN Laughs] Yeah, and then she started drinking. And that’s what killed her.But I almost – We had a Christmas party every year, and all the artists – And what a variety. I mean, everythingfrom Karel Appel to, you know, some just beginning young artist. And it was always just something we all lookedforward. And Marion, I’d get my shipping guy, Murray Kaplan [ph], I’d say, “Murray, you keep an eye on Marion,and get her into a taxi.” That was his job.

MS. BERMAN: So – so Benton besides this sort of seeing him later on, I mean, do you have any – Did you evertalk with him about printmaking or anything substantial or –?

MR. COLE: Mostly Rita. Rita sort of – I remember begging her for an edition of prints. And she said, “Well, yacan’t sell ‘em for ten dollars anymore.” I said, “I know, but how about twenty five dollars?” “Too cheap.” I said,“But these are young people just starting. What a privilege it would be for them to have one of Tom’s things.”“They can afford fifty dollars, seventy five.” Ya know, whatever. And I did finally get two editions from her in theseventies, Sorghum Mill and Discussion. And I did offer them at seventy five dollars, and they sold out overnight.Yeah, it was hard to get – My problem with most of my print publishing was getting really good artists, the wayAAA started, with the best. And the only way I could get major artists was to buy ten, fifteen prints out of anedition. I remember I – I flipped over a Robert Motherwell that Harry Abrams published. And I bought twenty fiveof them and catalogued them. I did Alex Katz, I did Jim Rosenquist. I did a number of – Then I did some of theyounger artists, like – who’s the girl that does – Jennifer Bartlett. Usually they were published by somebody elseand I liked the image.

MS. BERMAN: Well, what about George Grosz?

MR. COLE: He, I hardly remember, except that I did the catalogue at AAA for the Stick Men. And also, the End ofMy – A World Without – A Piece of My World in a World Without Peace. And both times, he was so gracious, andthanking me for the wonderful job I did in the catalogue. That’s all I really remember. I remember the shows.And I remember how disturbing they were. He was really getting it all off his chest. There were two separateexhibitions, probably ‘47, ‘49. But very much a gentleman; always impeccably dressed. Shirt, tie. Very of the oldschool artist. Very dramatic. But he was around the gallery a lot because of Pegeen.

MS. BERMAN: Did you visit his studio?

MR. COLE: No. I seldom visited artists’ studios. I only remember – I remember Gordon Grant. I remember helived in the same building Cornelia Otis Skinner lived in, on the corner of 65th or 6th and Lexington. Beautifulbuilding, duplex apartments. And I remember his taking me up to the penthouse. And he was starting to goblind. And –[tape stops, re-starts]

MS. BERMAN: You were saying that you usually didn’t visit artists’ studios.

MR. COLE: That’s right, yeah, and then I told you about Gordon Grant. [MS. BERMAN: Right.] And then I did go upto his – He had a little penthouse studio and – He had an apartment below in the penthouse. And I remember hewas going blind, and he was almost throwing away all his drawing books. And I kept saying, “No, Gordon, don’t

do that, don’t do that.” And I don’t know whatever happened to them. But I do remember his coming down tothe gallery one day. And I had some unsigned proofs. And I remember holding his hand, saying, “Alright, righthere.” And then he’d sign. But he was one of my –

I guess the most important artist, the most – The print that I published that has become the most valuable werethe two David Hockneys. I published Jungle Boy and Edward Lear. And I had met David at an exhibition in Londonof – at the Royal Watercolor Society. There was an exhibition of the students. And my wife Lillyan took one lookat a print called Three Kings and a Queen and said, “Wow, this is some artist.” And she discovered David, as faras I’m concerned. And we got to know each other. I guess I bought some of those prints for twenty dollars apiece, Three Kings and a Queen. And David came to the – to the United States. He had won a hundred guineaprize, which gave him enough money – it was less than 500 dollars – round trip New York, and money to stay.And he came here. And he made two stops, one to Bill Lieberman at the Modern, and one to me at AAA, when wewere between 52nd and Third, on Fifth. And I remember his walking in – Oh, no, this is before that; I was downon 49th Street. And that’s when I first really met him. I guess I had met him sort of in passing.

And I right away bought from him, I guess, a hundred, hundred and fifty dollars worth of prints that he had rolledup in newspaper. He didn’t speak English. He was still speaking Welsh. Hardly – Just enough that we could getby. And with that money, he got to California! And that’s how he never came back.

MS. BERMAN: Now, I don’t understand when you say he was speaking Welsh; he grew up in Yorkshire.

MR. COLE: Well, isn’t that Wales?

MS. BERMAN: No, it’s northern England.

MR. COLE: Well, whatever it is.

MS. BERMAN: [Laughs] I mean, maybe the accent was so –

MR. COLE: Oh, the accent was unbelievable. Anyway, then I commissioned him to do these two prints. I think atthat time, I also gave him the first show Hockney ever had in America, of The Rake’s Progress. I bought theportfolios from Kasman [ph] in London. And – There were, I think, fourteen, fifteen prints. There’s seventeen inthe portfolio. And I showed them, but I only sold them as portfolios. And I remember putting – I must’ve had tenor twelve of them. I kept ordering them, and I sold maybe five or six. And I remember having a few aside,putting three aside for the day they’re gonna be very valuable. And then David did these two prints. I rememberwe had to go out to Kennedy, to get him out of customs. And then – And he signed ‘em out there, because theywere – No, what’s the matter with me? It wasn’t Kennedy. Oh, it was part of The Rake’s Progress he had to signout there. But Leo Calipai printed the prints. He’s the guy who taught my – taught Lillyan. And David signedthem at the gallery. I think I paid him – Editions of fifty. So it was a hundred prints. I think I paid him a thousanddollars. And I put ‘em out in the market at forty bucks. Sold next to nothing. And finally, I sold almost thebalance of all the edition to Kasman, who was then buying ‘em for fifty dollars. More than I could sell ‘em for. Buttoday, I think Jungle Boy is six or seven thousand dollars, and Lear is somewhere around three or four. Yeah, Ithink – I don’t think I published anything like that in my career. I mean, not that some of the prints aren’t a lotmore valuable than when I published them, but – I know there’s some Soyers that sell for pretty good money,and a few others, but – I’m afraid that I just never can give credit to AA – that Reeves got of publishing Benton,Curry, and Wood.

MS. BERMAN: Now, on David Hockney, does he ever acknowledge you in his career?

MR. COLE: Not really. He – personally, he does. I mean, whenever I see him, he – there’s no question. In fact, hehad a show in France, and I had my son Jimmy go to see him. And Jimmy was told by David that I was his firstdealer in America. But Henry Geldzahler wrote a book on David, and I’m not mentioned. Nor is AAA. I have afeeling we never had the prestige as a print gallery, compared to –.The first major show that he had was withCharlie Alan. And then he went to Emmerich.

MS. BERMAN: That’s interesting. Does Andre know you were the first – his first dealer?

MR. COLE: Maybe, I don’t know. We’ve never talked about it. But I do know that we worked together when thesuite came out – which was it? The very Picasso thing that David did. Early on. I won’t remember. But he did asuite of prints, and – and I think one day Andre and I started comparing notes and found out that he was payinga lot more for the suites than I was. [They laugh] And there was hell to pay and – but – No, I don’t think therewas ever any connection. Andre and I were never that close. We were both on the board of directors together ofthe Art Dealers Association. One year when he was president, I might’ve been vice-president. I know I was vice-president under Eugene Thaw and Klaus Perls and Harold Mills. Maybe Andre was president after that.

MS. BERMAN: Was there a temptation to try to hold onto an artist like David Hockney, to –

MR. COLE: Never.

MS. BERMAN: Or?

MR. COLE: Never. I never wanted an exclusive on any artist. And the few exclusives I had – one was Jake Landauand the other was Dick Florsheim – on their request. But it was a responsibility I really didn’t want. When you’redealing with prints, the ability to produce large quantities was just more than I could handle. Especially prolificartists like both Landau and Florsheim. In fact, at the end, before Dick died, I was getting him down to editions offorty and fifty and – Because they just couldn’t be absorbed. And I said I couldn’t even house them all. And Ibegged him to go off on his own. And he did find a dealer in Scottsdale, and I think he also worked directly withGarelick in Detroit. And it just – You cannot take an artist – especially a printmaker – And I don’t think eventoday, big houses like Gemini –

[BEGIN TAPE THREE, SIDE ONE]

MS. BERMAN: This is Avis Berman, interviewing Sylvan Cole for the Archives of American Art, on July 18th, at hisgallery at 101 West 57th Street. And Sylvan, last time when we stopped, you had said you wanted to tell thisstory about Hans Hofmann, so why don’t you begin with that, and we’ll return to other things when you’re done[inaudible].

MR. COLE: I don’t know where I started or left off, but many years ago, I met and became friendly with JackLevine. And Jack had a studio on Bleecker Street. And I remember I was anxious to have him do some editionsfor Associated American Artists. Ok.

MS. BERMAN: Ok.

MR. COLE: So I went down to have lunch with Jack, went to the studio. I remember fascinating things. Iremember he was doing a portrait of a German general sitting at a desk, with figures behind the general. And hewas puzzled as to what to do with a corner of the painting. And I kept looking at the picture, and I said, “Why –how ‘bout a syringe or some sort of a thing that you inoculate – you know, a deadly serum or something?” And –and I do think he eventually put in a syringe-like thing in the corner. Anyway, be that as it may, we talked abouthis etching. He had not done prints for years and years and years. And I did get from him three prints. One wasMaimonides, one was the one of a horse, and I can’t remember the third edition that he did. Adam and Eve. Andanyhow, he and I went to lunch. And we went to this little restaurant right around the corner somewhere. And incame Hans Hofmann. And Hans, the big, burly bear that he was, and he came over to me, we hugged eachother, “Oh, how are you? How are you?,” and this and that. And there was deadly silence between Jack andHans, and so I introduced – “Hans,” I said, “Hans, this is the American artist, Jack Levine. Jack, this is the famousHans Hofmann.” And there was a grunt from Jack, and Hans shook his hand and said, “Oh, Mr. Levine, I knowyour work and I’ve been a great admirer. You’re a wonderful artist,” and a little chit-chat. And Hans went over tohis table, where he was having lunch with a couple of people. And Jack turned to me and he said, “There’s theguy who set art back twenty years.” That was the story I remember in this thing. But it was such a shock, youknow, to get this from Jack, but that was the world at that moment of time. I don’t think I can date this. I thinkit’s got to be –

MS. BERMAN: Well, it’s gotta be –

MR. COLE: I’d say late sixties, early seventies.

MS. BERMAN: Well, it’s got – Well, I think, didn’t Hans Hofmann die in something like ‘66?

MR. COLE: Oh, I thought he died later than that.

MS. BERMAN: I’ll have to –

MR. COLE: Yeah. But I – I would have to find out when we published those three Jack Levine etchings, and thenI’d have a clue as to dating it back.

MS. BERMAN: Well, I think it shows a lot about both of their temperaments, ‘cause Hans Hofmann was always soexpansive, and Jack was –

MR. COLE: Oh, what a sweetheart. And Jack was always the dour, sardonic person. We see each other from timeto time now. And every so often we threaten to have lunch, and for some reason it just doesn’t happen though Iwould like to catch up with Jack and just see how he is. I mean, I knew Ruth, his wife, and I knew his daughterwhen she was growing up, and – and I used to visit him at his house down in the Village.

MS. BERMAN: Well, that’s exactly where you’ve gotta go, and then you gotta take him around the corner toAnglers and Writers. You’ve gotta go to – You’ve gotta pull him out of his studio physically and move him [MR.

COLE: Yeah] two blocks; and that’s as far as he goes.

MR. COLE: Well, the strange thing about what I see in Jack’s work is that it holds a very, very high level ofaccomplishment. And I think even his latest shows are truly wonderful. I mean, he has gotten this sort ofmasterly look about everything he does and – It’s very precious. I think he’s alone in the world, in many ways, asall of his people that he really cared about are gone. And he’s still relatively young, he’s – 1915, I think, makeshim 85.

Other stories, I guess, of artists, I think they’re more vignette anecdotes. Like, I can remember Raphael Soyer,whom – to whom I was really quite close. And Raphael was my real bete noir. There was something about myheight and his height [MS. BERMAN Laughs] that was a problem. And I always felt Raphael wanted to cut medown to his size. He’d ask very personal questions about, you know, sex or, you know, sort of as if I was a stud orsomething, and – and – and ask me, you know, things that were a little embarrassing to me. And I probablyavoided answering. I do know that one time we were having a drink. He always came to the gallery around fouror five in the afternoon. That’s if we had a meeting or – Often, I would go to his studio, but – You know, it waspretty evenly divided as who would go where. And I’d say we probably met, oh, once a month, once every twomonths, either one place or another. And I remember having a drink with him. And, you know, Raphael, with twodrinks, was almost drunk. I mean, I’d put him in a taxi to get home. And we both drank scotch. And his – I think Iremember he used to drink it straight; and I – I always had mine with water.

And anyway, one time I remember his saying something to me that his dealers have always set him back. Andthe statement always bothered me. And I used to say, “What do you mean by that?” And he would say, “Well,they try to control what I do.” And I said, “Well, I never did that.” He said, “Oh, yes you did. You remember Ibrought you a lithograph with a girl with buck teeth, a proof, and you didn’t wanna publish it because youthought it was unattractive and wouldn’t sell.” And I said, “Oh, yes, I remember. And we made an edition of fiftyand it sold out right away.” And he said, “See?” [MS. BERMAN Laughs]

But I do think Soyer had a way of being sloppy at times. Very casual in his work. I don’t know quite how toexpress it. I think he’d get interested in a facet of something and do it. Often – It was almost a challenge. Itwould be usually a nude that was not particularly attractive, that was either very scrawny or very obese, one orthe other. And – and while he had beautiful models, he also had models that sort of made him challenge what hewas doing. And as a publisher of many, many of Raphael’s prints, or a distributor, I – I would have troubleworking in editing.

And then of course, I worked with Raphael extensively in 1965 and 1966, when I was doing the catalogueraisonné of his prints. And I wanted it out, and I wanted an exhibition to coincide with a major retrospective of hiswork at the Whitney. And this took an incredible amount of time. It was the first major catalogue raisonné I’dever done. And it was fifty years of his prints, from 1917 to 1967. And slowly but surely, amassing all thatmaterial. And then trying to date it, and trying to figure out edition sizes, if he remembered, and – And often, hereally had trouble remembering exactly what it was all about.

I remember one time – I lived at that time at Park Avenue and 90th Street, and I had this large living room. And Itook the master set of prints up to the apartment and I started laying it out on the floor, moving back furniture.And Raphael and Rebecca both came to the apartment. And I went from 1915 to, let’s say, 1930, laid that out;and then thirties; I laid out forties – just so that we could see. And I would say, “Raphael, stylistically, you havethis in 1946, and it seems it’s more a fifties print than a forties.” And Rebecca’d say, “Oh, yes, you did that inthe fifties, and – It was early fifties. Remember this, remember that?” So we would juggle them around. Andmany of the dates I had circa instead of actual, because he just didn’t know. And I think we did as good a job aswe could. I do know one time there was this nude leaning forward, with her breasts sort of hanging down. And hesaid, “Now, that was Ros.” And Rebecca said, “Well, you shouldn’t name who it is.” And it came to me that itwas Ros Roose, [MS. BERMAN: Right] who was the wife of a psychoanalyst whom I knew very well, and both ofthem used to go up to Provincetown. I think Ros is still alive, though.

MS. BERMAN: She is, she is, and she lives on the Upper West Side.

MR. COLE: 90th Street?

MS. BERMAN: There was an article in the New Yorker once about her and her career, and she discussed all of thepeople she’d modeled [MR. COLE: Yeah] for, including Soyer and – and Grosz and [inaudible].

MR. COLE: Yeah, well anyway, that was funny, getting this little aspect of this print. I do know after the book wasfinally published, in 1967, and we had it in time for the show – And then I think ten or twelve prints showed upthat weren’t in there. So we did a revised edition. And I’ve always wanted to complete it, but I’ve worked withRaphael’s grandson, Joey Lieberman or Liederman, I’m not sure. Joey – think it’s Liederman. He’s Mary’s son,with her first husband. Though I don’t know if she’s ever remarried since, though she’s been living withsomebody forever. And we did try to do a master set, and we did try to come up with some way of going on. But

it never came to pass. From 19 – I’d say ‘75 or so, Raphael was making tons of etchings with various printers,and he was making some – He even made some lithographs in the late – early – middle sixties, with IrwinHollander. And once he had the freedom to do whatever he wanted, he just went on and on. And he – I – I feltthat the later work just started to decline, and – I must say at this point, I’m not as interested in doing it as I was.I still think it should be done, but I don’t think I’m the one to do it anymore. And somebody should probably do abrand new catalogue raisonné incorporating a lot of the early material that keeps showing up. In fact, there wasa Swann auction in May of this year, or earlier – may’ve been May – where there were a lot of prints that I neversaw. Early 1917 etchings that a guy by the name of Arnold had collected, and it was his collection that came upfor sale. And obviously, works that Raphael had forgotten all about.

MS. BERMAN: I just wanna backtrack for a minute. How did you meet Hans Hofmann?

MR. COLE: Up in Provincetown. I would go up there, starting about 1960, I would say, or ‘61. And for six or sevenyears, I went to Provincetown every summer for two to three weeks. And the reason I went there was DickFlorsheim. Dick had a house there. And he had already introduced me to Hudson Walker, who became mystrongest patron. And I adored all these people. And then I went up and, you know, I met Sol Wilson, and I metJoe Kaplan. They were all part of a regular poker game. Somewhere in that period, Helen Frankenthaler and BobMotherwell were married. And I had known Helen, so I met Bob. Through Dick, I met David Smith. I met Rothko,who sort of had a shine for my youngest brother, who got killed in an auto accident in the late sixties, and usedto come over to my brother Dick, Richard Cole, and have drinks with him almost every other day or something.And it was, you know, an artists colony that I loved. There was Chaim Gross, there was [Jack] Tworkov there wasthe great poet up there that I liked so much. Oh!

MS. BERMAN: Stanley Kunitz?

MR. COLE: Stanley Kunitz. And his wife, Elise [MS. BERMAN: Elise] Asher, yeah. But it was a very wonderfulcommunity. It seemed there was a six-ish cocktail party almost every day. And the same gang would show upand all. I remember Francoise Gilot was writing her first book on Picasso, My Life With Picasso. [Coughs] Excuseme. And we were good friends. And Francoise came up and spent a week with us up there. And she was sort ofthe rage of everybody meeting her, and she was quite the center of attention.

MS. BERMAN: Well, what was – I mean, I realize your brother had the stronger relationship, but what was Rothkolike?

MR. COLE: I hardly met him. I mean, I saw him. He was a big, burly, friendly person. He – he was the one Ialways had the most guilt about, in the sense that – I used to always say, “What does an artist do when he getsup in the morning and says, ‘What color blobs am I gonna paint today?’ [Phone rings; tape stops, re-starts]

MS. BERMAN: You were talking about Rothko, and you were saying, “What –” You know?

MR. COLE: Oh, yeah, I – Get up and two blobs. And when he committed suicide, I always sort of felt that Iunderstood. I mean, he had, I thought, painted himself into a corner. Which was not his reason for suicide, but – Iremember the day it was in the papers, I was at Longchamp’s for dinner, on 78th Street or 77th, 78th, onMadison. And I remember Adolph and Esther Gottlieb coming in. And I went over to Adolph and talked to himabout how sad it was about Mark. And I knew they were very close, and – And I realized Adolph had such adifferent temperament. He – He knew what he was doing and where he was going. And Mark, I think, always wasfeeling his way. I – It’s just a theory on my part.

Speaking about Adolph, I found out that he was doing some screenprints down at Pratt Graphic Center, througheither Fritz Eichenberg or Andy Stasik; I don’t remember who was in charge then. But I did go down and – Andthen I went over to Adolph and asked him if I could buy an edition of prints from him. And we didn’t discussmoney or anything; we didn’t discuss size of edition. But a week or two passed, and I called up Adolph and I said,“What’s happening with this possible purchase of an edition of your work?” He said, “Oh, Sylvan, sorry, you’renot getting any.” I said, “What do you mean?” “Well, I spoke to Frank Lloyd, and I told him that you wereinterested in getting an edition, and he bought ‘em all.” [Laughs]

MS. BERMAN: Now, how about Tworkov? Were you –

MR. COLE: Tworkov, I hardly knew. I did publish a print called the Double Self-Portrait. And it never did well. AndI sort of got that print indirectly; I forget whether it was Mervyn Jules or one of the artists up in Provincetown thatmentioned it to me, and I found out where it was printed, and saw the proof, and – and decided to negotiate andget it. And that’s all I can recall. I don’t know whether papers regarding that are in the AAA archives or not. Somuch of this was verbal.

MS. BERMAN: Of course.

MR. COLE: Most of the arrangements with the artists were verbal. Not that I wouldn’t often put in writing anunderstanding regarding an edition, where I’d say, “It’s our understanding that you will do this edition of ahundred prints, numbered 100[sic] through a hundred, plus ten; that AAA will pay for the printing; and that youwill sign and number the prints; and all the numbered prints would become the property of AAA. And the artist’sproofs would be yours and –” It was a very informal sort of a letter. I remember early on, in the – probably latefifties, early sixties, I would put in a clause in the letter that AAA owned the reproduction rights of the work. AndI guess some time in the mid-sixties, I sold the rights for a record cover to some record company – it was a veryprominent one; I can’t recall – for an etching of Harry Hoehn, H-O-E-H-N. And never thought about it. I guess Igot 200 bucks for the rights, or something like that. And I got a letter from Harry Hoehn saying that he saw hiswork on this record cover, and what right did I have to do that? And I wrote and said that that was part of theunderstanding of our publishing that particular print. And he said, “I didn’t realize that. And I am going to writeletters to every artist I know telling them never, never do business with Associated American Artists.” I wasreally shocked. So I called him up and I said, “Come on in, let’s talk.” And he was very angry, very upset. And Icalmed him down. I said, “I’ll tell ya what, I will take this clause out of all future letters, and I’ll give you the 200bucks.” And he suddenly was as nice as a lamb. [MS. BERMAN Laughs] And everything ended peacefully. But I – Ihad so few altercations with artists that they literally stand out in my mind – as minor as that was – where I’d bedealing with hundreds of artists. I mean, I think probably when I say I’ve dealt with 3,000 artists, I think I’mright. That some were just in passing, or some were commissioned, some were not; some work I looked at andcouldn’t use. And I never, never had problems. You know. And – and here was a problem. And I think that theonly other problem – I had two other problems. I had one with a man, an artist whose name I’ve forgotten, whodid architectural renderings. And Lever House was being built. And on spec, I discussed with him that it might beinteresting for him to do this as it was being built – it may be another building, but I think it was Lever House –which he did. And I had a lady who handled sort of special things like that, and she took the renderings over tosomebody at Lever House and whatever. And they rejected ‘em; they didn’t wanna buy them. And I told himthat. And he sent me a bill for a thousand dollars or so, and – And I said, “No, this was not our arrangement.” Hesaid, “Oh, yes it was.” And I – We had nothing in writing. And rather than go through aggravation, I think wesettled for 500 dollars. And he kept the drawings.

And the last one I remember was Bernard Childs. Bernard Childs, I met at the opening of the Huntington HartfordMuseum at Columbus Circle. He just charmed the hell out of me. He was a printmaker. I told him what I do and –And I just – We had quick rapport. And I know I spent a lot of time at that opening with Bernard. I called himBernie in those days. He had just come from Paris. And he asked if he could make an appointment and come inand show me his work, and I said sure. I think within two days, he calls me up, and I make an appointment. Andhe brings in his prints. They are absolutely fantastic. They – Just jewels. And I – I said, “Oh, I’d love to handle sixof them, just to get started.” And I said, “This one, this one,” and I picked out the six. And I said, “What’s theselling price?” He said, “Well, this one’s two hundred; this one’s three hundred.” I said, “Oh, I can’t sell ‘em atthat price.” And he said, “What do you mean?” I said, “Oh, I don’t have a market at that kinda money for theseprints, and –” And – I mean, maybe we’d sell one or two a year, at most. Most of the prints at the time, a hundreddollars, a hundred and fifty was a high price.

Anyway, he said, “Sylvan, try.” And so I said, “Alright.” So I took ‘em in, matted ‘em. And they went into the binsof all the other prints. And nothing happened, and – I guess a month passed, and he called me and he said,“How you doing?” I said, “You know, nothing, they’re really – I told you this.” And he then went on, and he calledme suddenly almost every two weeks. And finally it got sort of upsetting, and I said, “Look, Bernard, if I’m gonnasell a print, I’m gonna let you know. And if you’re gonna keep bugging me, I’m gonna ask you to take the printsback and we’ll be friends.” He kept bugging me, and finally I said, “Bernard, come up and pick up the prints.” Sohe comes up to pick up the prints, and I gave him five; he says, “Where’s the sixth?” I said, “I sold it.” He said,“Well, keep these.” I said, “No, I’m not gonna keep ‘em. I’m gonna pay you for the sixth, and that’s the end ofit.” Which I did.

I guess three or four years passed, and Aldis Brown, who had worked with Peter Deitch, came over with mygallery director at that time. And things were sort of flourishing. And Aldis comes into the office, he says, “I justfound the most wonderful artist.” I said, “Who?” He said, “Bernard Childs.” I said, “No.” [MS. BERMAN Laughs]He said, “I’d really like to do it. I really think we can sell ‘em.” I said, “Alright, Aldis, but it’s your responsibility.You make the financial arrangements, you do everything.” Financial arrangements were fairly simple; we got50:50 across the boards with all artists. With no exceptions. I stuck to that because I wanted every artist beingtreated equally. I didn’t wanna have one artist getting 60% and another 50. And I stuck to that, I mean – And so Isaid, “You take care of it.” So Aldis did. And sure enough, time went on, nothing was sold. Aldis left to form hisown gallery, and I decided it was time to give Bernard his prints back. And by then, he wasn’t Bernie anymore;he’d married Judith, and it was now Bernard. And he wouldn’t even come up to get ‘em. I think Judith got ‘em.And then he called me and said, “These prints are not acceptable. They’ve been damaged.” I said, “What do youmean, damaged?” He said, “Well, the hinging is wrong, and this is wrong, and I – and I gave you pristine prints.So these prints belong to you, and I want payment.” So I said, “That’s ridiculous.” And I really thought Judith waswonderful, and we’re still good friends. And I called Judith. I said, “Will you get this guy off my back?”

Anyway, it ends up that her father’s a lawyer. And suddenly I got a letter, legal lawyer letter from her father onbehalf of Bernard saying they want payment for 50% of the retail. Well, this went on and on, and I said no.Finally, I know we did settle. And I did buy them. And I do know I then put ‘em out for sale at 50% of what he hadfor pricing. And he blew up at that. I said, “They’re my prints; I can do with ‘em what I want.” And that was myvengeance.

MS. BERMAN: [Laughs]

MR. COLE: But I guess I could’ve gotten persnickety, too, but I was really, I think, generally very good with all theartists. I mean, I – I think they respected the gallery, respected me. And I always felt comfortable. And I was tothe – I was to the dot on payment. They got paid the 20th of the month following sale, whether we were paid ornot; it was too much trouble to – with all this volume of business. But I would sign the 20th of every monthprobably between twenty – which would be minimal – to 60 or 70 checks to artists. It was really – And I loved it. Iloved signing those checks. And they loved getting ‘em. I know we threw a Christmas party every year for theartists and the staff. And that party would be about the 15th, 16th of December. Or, you know, pretty near the20th. And I’d have the checks made out early, and at the Christmas party I’d go around with envelopes, handingartists the checks that they got. ‘Course, there were some artists that didn’t get checks that were at the party,but it’s – it was a nice thing. Sort of a Christmas present.

MS. BERMAN: Well, and you mentioned – Let’s – let’s pick with somebody that you really knew well. You saidHudson Walker. Now, tell me about – You evidently had a real relationship with him?

MR. COLE: Oh, Hudson was just wonderful. Hudson, I really was – became very close to. I met Hudson throughRichard Florsheim. Dick Florsheim, of himself, was such a close friend. I mean, we used to talk as if we werebrothers. We were intimately close; we knew each other’s personal lives, personal finances, personal hopes anddreams. I think I, in an earlier tape, mentioned how I got to meet Dick. Did I?

MS. BERMAN: I don’t think so.

MR. COLE: I may be confusing it with – I’ll repeat. There was an exhibition of American prints at the Rorsach[sic]Museum at 103rd and Riverside. It’s not Rorsach –

MS. BERMAN: It’s Roerich.

MR. COLE: Roerich Museum. I’m mixing up my Freud. And there was a print of ships at anchor called Masts. And Ijust knew that was a winner. So I – I think in the catalogue, they had the names and addresses of the artists, so Igot it in some way. Dick was in Chicago, and I wrote Mr. Florsheim and said that we would like very much if hewould consider doing an edition similar to that for Associated American Artists; that the edition was 250; he’dget ten impressions; and we’d pay 500 dollars, I think, at the time; and the print would sell for ten dollars. So Igot back a lovely letter; he’d be delighted. And Dick asked all the – Dick was very precise. Like: Who wouldsupply the stone? Who would pay for the printing? Who would pay for the paper? All these very precise things. Ianswered ‘em. And I did get my first edition; I think it was Anchorage. And I think it sold in two weeks, all 250gone. And that was the beginning of our friendship. And I would say that I was selling at least a thousand printsof Dick Florsheim a year from 1962 right through to the end of the sixties.

MS. BERMAN: Astonishing.

MR. COLE: Astonishing! He – he would go to Paris, and he made the first two color lithographs for AssociatedAmerican Artists. I can’t remember the titles. One was a vertical, almost 30 inches high by twelve inches across.And the other was a horizontal, same measurement. The one was a sort of skyscape or city scene, and the otherwas a scene of Provincetown, of the weirs and the nets and – And those two we put into a catalogue, a little fourpage thing with both in color. Thirty dollars a print. It was astounding. We had checks with orders this high inone day! A foot and a half high. Just all with thirty dollars, sixty dollars, or whatever it was. And that – thoseeditions sold out. So then we kept doing black and white 250 editions for ten dollars, and then color ones, and –It just went on and on, and I did a show with Dick, his first major print show. And of course, Dick’s prints were inprobably 75, a hundred collections across the world. I mean, they were in the Bibliotech Nationale, they were inthe British Museum. I mean, he was sorta well known. At one time, he was president of Artists Equity. And Dickwas a very popular guy who – You know, he – he went on through, I guess, to the end of the sixties, being aspopular as he was. He showed at Babcock Gallery. And there, he had a smash success with a write-up in TimeMagazine and the New York Times, and notoriety like that. And then, as quickly as this media rose, it died.Evidently, we had really saturated a market.

I mean, there were just so many people that could buy so many of Dick’s prints. And – So I commissioned him tofewer editions. And also, I didn’t do any more color prints with him, and things like that. But Dick kept going. Hewas always at Mourlot at the rock pile and – or at Desjourbert making prints. And he was very popular in boththese places. Dick had spent some time as a youngster in Nice, where his family set up winter quarters at the

Negulescu [ph]. And of course, Dick spoke fluent French. And so when he’d get to these workshops, they alladored this American that not only did nice work and knew how to make prints, but also spoke French.

But I think Dick had trouble toward the end in – in just having lost that recognition and – And here he wanted meexclusive to handle every edition he ever did, and finally I had him get somebody in Arizona or New Mexico tohandle his work, and Garelick in – in Detroit to handle his work, and Frank O’Shalger [ph] in Chicago – prints aswell as the paintings they were handling – so that I wasn’t the complete source for the print distribution.

There’s nothing much more to say about this, except Dick died and – He was having lunch at some club inChicago and went to the men’s room and had a heart attack, and that was the end of it. But I keep thinking thattoward the end of his life, he was very needled by having had this great success, and then going into – And Ithink this is a problem that I have always had with artists who sort of go past their prime. And especially when Iwas working on shows like WPA [Works Progress Administration] and I’d go to the artists and say, “I’d like to seeif you’d sell me or lend me WPA prints,” and they’d say, “I don’t wanna do that; what about what I’m doingnow?” And it has happened over and over again. And you see it. You know, you – You see it with every artist. Forsome reason. I mean, even Jasper Johns, you want the prints of the sixties or the work of the sixties. Picasso,from 1904 to about 1940. On and on and on.

MS. BERMAN: Well, and artists who are primarily easel painters or sculptors, there’s a certain high point. I mean,everybody that – Well, they’re still working.

MR. COLE: You keep wondering which artists seem to – I think [Edward] Hopper sort of never had a real decline. Ihave a feeling it takes a certain isolation and a certain type of mentality to keep the adulation and all therecognition away and – and – I look at somebody like Rauschenberg, where, you know – He has his low momentsand his high. But [Robert] Rauschenberg was determined not to be caught into a trap. And so he kept moving onand moving on and moving on. Whether he moved on well or not, history will determine that. But I think – I knowDick Florsheim used to say, “I can’t copy myself.” And I’d say, “Well, Dick, this was the sort of stuff that soldbetter.” And he – he was absolutely – He’d almost go the opposite way to avoid being trapped by themarketplace. And yet I know artists that – I remember one whose name – Well, I guess none of this is going to bereleased, but I remember Umberto Romano had a show at AAA back in the late forties. And one of the paintingswas sold. And this woman came in, she said, “That’s the one I’d have bought.” He said, “I’ll paint you anotherone,” and did.

MS. BERMAN: Well, don’t forget that there are also artists like [Alexander] Archipenko that went back and they’dredate it, they’d – you know, it’s –

MR. COLE: Oh, yeah. And I think the same thing is said about [Giorgio] de Chirico. Painted his early stuff later onin life.

MS. BERMAN: Well, Stuart Davis was an artist who did not decline. He got better and more [inaudible].

MR. COLE: It’s true, there are some that just seem to get better.

MS. BERMAN: It’s very rare, though.

MR. COLE: But again, it’s the artist that – Like Stuart Davis never – I have a feeling it’s a matter of acclaim, in away. I think the market and the acclaim is a very corrupting influence. And so if they don’t have that, they cankeep doing their thing. And if they can survive –

[BEGIN TAPE THREE, SIDE TWO]

MR. COLE: – integrity, where the artist does not want to make potboilers of what he’s done. I mean, I knowthere’s a printmaker, Harold Altman. And I am the only dealer in prints that I know of that has never had anexhibition of Harold Altman. And Harold Altman, I’d say in the late fifties, early sixties, was the child prodigy ofprints. He was unbelievably talented. The University of Wisconsin – And he started making these wonderful linearprints. And then he made – went into parks and – and that sort of thing, subject matter. And Harold – I haven’tseen him probably in eight or ten years. But he was making a million dollars a year, churning out his prints.Wonderful. If you saw one or two, you were aghast; if you saw them over the years, you realized that it was justone after the other. And he showed with Weyhe Gallery, with every gallery I could think of that handled prints inNew York. No loyalty to any one gallery. Still shows, I think, at Art Expo, where his kids sort of manage hismaterial, and I think it still sells; I don’t know.

MS. BERMAN: That’s interesting. This is – I’d never even heard of him.

MR. COLE: Well, he was – I did publish a few of his prints, but I never gave him a show.

MS. BERMAN: Well, I wanna kinda get back to Hudson Walker here.

MR. COLE: Oh, I’m sorry.

MS. BERMAN: That’s alright. These other things are fine.

MR. COLE: We haven’t even talked about Huddie. I met Hudson Walker through Dick Florsheim. They wereneighbors in Provincetown in the summer. Dick’s house – Next to Dick’s house was called the buffer state, whichwas – The Walkers owned, I think, two or three houses right in a row on – right on Provincetown Bay. And thencame Huddie and Ione’s house, where the girls grew up – Hattie, Berta and Louise. Berta and Louise are twins.And then another house, which one of the relatives may’ve owned, I don’t remember. But Hudson and Ione werethe king and queen of Provincetown. They were the supporters, the arbiters, the – And I think it was pretty earlyon after I met Hudson – which was probably ‘61, ‘62, somewhere in the late sixties – he said, “Sylvan, I wannabuy every – a print from every edition you have ever done at AAA, starting back in 1958. And I will continuedoing this every year.” And I was publishing probably twenty to thirty prints a year. And while the earlier years, Iwas publishing fewer, I got this master collection together, and it all went to the University of Minnesota, wherethey framed them and gave them to students for their rooms. For a semester. Oh, they maybe borrowed ‘em, orthey had a small fee to pay. And at the same time, Hudson was buying every print – The prints that were part ofthe Print Council of America. Well, IGAS, International Graphic Arts Society. They were also publishing prints. Andthose prints would all go out there. And every year, Hudson, Ione, sometimes some of the – Berta or Hattie orsomebody would come on in, and I’d take them all to dinner. But before they went to dinner, they’d come to thegallery around six in the evening – the gallery’d be closed – and I would then show them that particular year’spublications. And they’d make their comments and they’d – You know, they were buying it anyway. And ofcourse, I gave them a very special price. But it was a considerable purchase for me, and – and it was an honor.And it was sort of an archive of the gallery’s publications. But I don’t think that archive exists today; I think thatworks were stolen. I know IGAS had published an Escher that disappeared that today sells for ten, twelvethousand. I had published a couple of David Hockneys that I think I was told they had disappeared. And I think afew Soyers, or something like that. But it was just – I also had a couple of Bentons that I had published. So thoseall – And I don’t know to this – I know at one point before Hudson passed away, he had stopped doing that. And –Maybe it was pretty late. Just – I don’t remember when he died, but –

MS. BERMAN: But he didn’t give any of these to museums; this was just for the university.

MR. COLE: Yes. Never got – He did other things for museums. Like, he might see a print that I had published andsay, “Now, that I’d like to go to the Milwaukee Art Center,” or something like that, and so he’d buy a duplicateimpression.

MS. BERMAN: Now, did – did – Did you ever talk to Walker about artists who did well, like say Marsden Hartleyand –

MR. COLE: Oh, yeah.

MS. BERMAN: That would be very interesting.

MR. COLE: Well, that – I must say, we talked about it. But he had two great loves. One was Kathe Kollwitz, andthe other was Marsden Hartley. And I do know that he used to tell me about getting those estates and – and notKollwitz’ estate, but getting a big block from some dealer who passed away – Norman or something – andgetting a block of the Marsden Hartleys. And I do remember he had several Hartleys in his home. I don’t knowwhether he had that Dinner at the Thresher’s – What’s – what’s it called, where these – all these brown –

MS. BERMAN: The fishermen –

MR. COLE: Yeah, the fishermen at the table.

MS. BERMAN: I’m not sure if that’s the right –

MR. COLE: Somehow that –

MS. BERMAN: Fisherman’s Supper or something. Dinner at the Thresher’s is a Grant Wood.

MR. COLE: Grant Wood, yeah. But – He would talk vaguely about the Hudson Walker Gallery. And I remember JoeHirsch used to tell me that he was one of the artists that was in the gallery. And – But I must say – Most of thetime, we would have lunch together about once every two or three months, at the Century. And he would rambleon about the art world as it was at the time, more than the Hartley material. I think the Hartley material wasbeing handled by Babcock, even though Hudson owned it or – They were the distributors and handlers. And Ithink Hudson was sort of not as involved with the actual sales and merchandising of that estate. I think he did

give away some to important collections and stuff like that, on an annual basis, for tax purposes. Actually,Hudson is – when I knew him, and as long as I knew him – was in the jewelry business.

MS. BERMAN: I had no idea he was in the jewelry business.

MR. COLE: Oh, yeah.

MS. BERMAN: Well, he was also involved with some lumber or timber, there was –

MR. COLE: Oh, that’s the family business.

MS. BERMAN: Right, right. That’s what I – Because we looked through that in various Abbott guides ofcommissions – to photograph – and photographing along the camps.

MR. COLE: Yes, actually, Berta was very close to Bernice Abbott. They lived in Forest Hills in a very nice house.Certainly, loaded with art. I mean, Hudson was an avid buyer of art. Never bought anything expensive, though Ithink his eye was good, and he certainly ended up with a wonderful collection. I know after he died, I remembergoing out and Ione asking me if I could handle this or that or the other thing. But he had stored away a Lautrecposter, or some [Honore] Daumiers, or goodness knows what all. And I think he also had an interest in MaxWeber, collected quite a bit of that. Very much his own person. Nobody advised him. Hudson, liked something,he’d say, “How much is that?” He never haggled, he never wanted special prices. He – If you gave him specialprices, he was appreciative, but he would never say, “What’s my best price?,” or “What can you do for me?” Hewas very much a gentleman that had very, very strong likes, and very, very strong dislikes. He was not a personthat – If you were on his good side, great; if you were on his bad side, just forget it. I mean, he was rigid about it.And very outspoken about people that he didn’t think much of. Like George Biddle was somebody that he wouldfuss over.

But Hudson was also very instrumental in founding the Artists Equity. And he was – founded, in a way, the PrintCouncil of America with Lessing. While Lessing Rosenwald was involved, Hudson was certainly involved. JoshuaBinion Cahn, who wrote with, I think, [Carl] Zigrosser, “What Is An Original Print?”, eventually married Hudson’sbrother’s widow. And they both passed away with the past five or ten years.

MS. BERMAN: Now, just also in Provincetown, of course, you mentioned Robert Motherwell, who was certainly aprolific printmaker. Did you have anything to do with him, with –?

MR. COLE: Never.

MS. BERMAN: Never anything?

MR. COLE: We were neighbors in Provincetown and knew each other. And friends. I mean, I – I remember goingin his studio. I remember two wonderful stories about Bob. One is walking downtown with him one morning. AndI was meeting Hudson over at the Provincetown Inn, which was the other side of town, for lunch. And Bobmay’ve been invited, too; I don’t remember that. But I asked Bob how things were, and he said oh, he wasexhausted; he had painted ten paintings that morning. And of course, with his action painting, he’d have tencanvases, and he’d just go. And then he would sit for hours in front of each one, and probably destroyed all ten,or maybe kept one. The other story is a doctor Seley, S-E-L-E-Y, or S-E-A-L-E-Y, I don’t remember. I rememberhim and his wife Marsha. And the Seleys were vacationers in Provincetown, much as my wife and I were. Andone day Dr. Seley borrowed Dick Florsheim’s sailboat, which I think was maybe – If sixteen feet long, it was big.It was probably nearer twelve. It was tiny. And I think it was called AAA. And they borrowed the sailboat, wentout into the bay. And a storm came up. And I think Dick, through his glasses, saw the boat capsize. And he wasgonna call the Coast Guard. And I went over to Bob and I said, “The Seleys just capsized in the middle of thebay.” He says, “Come on, let’s get it.” Bob had a power boat. So we jumped into the power boat. He revs up andhe starts – boom! And there’s a jetty right – I said, “Bob, Bob!” We just missed the jetty. And he head out, andit’s pouring rain, and he’s trying to light his Gitanes Bleu cigarette and – and finally – I never forget it – he says,“I’ve always wanted to rescue my doctor.” And it was his doctor. In fact, it was this doctor that had given Bob hisheart – What is the monitor thing?

MS. BERMAN: Pacemaker?

MR. COLE: Pacemaker, yeah. What a line.

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm. Well, I hope you got ‘em.

MR. COLE: Oh, yeah, we got to them. And we took them back, and I think the Coast Guard came and hauled inthe boat.

MS. BERMAN: Well, we – It occurs to me, as we’re sitting here and I’m looking at one wall of prints by Will Barnet,

that we have not discussed your long – with Will yet –

MR. COLE: Well, Will, I started with back, I guess – On and off, we’ve known each other, almost 40 years, I’msure. He’s somebody I just got to know better and better as our friendship grew, and – and – I’m trying to recallwhat started first. I’m trying to remember. I think – It must’ve been when I gave him a – I’d planned to give him aretrospective, and at the same time, publish a catalogue raisonné of his work. And – Working at the gallery wassomebody who had been around the art world and was handling publications, whose name I’ll forget; it’s Georgesomebody. He was sort of a Hassam scholar. And he had worked, I think, with ACA and a few other galleries. Butanyhow, he did a lot of the legwork on helping get this together. And then Will and I would work on dating andedition sizes and all this. And Will – We had our retrospective, and it was a smash success. And he was so happyto have a catalogue raisonné. And over the years, I don’t think there’s been anything special; I – I think at times,I published some of his big color prints. And of course, it was a moment – I’d say throughout the seventies –when demands on Will’s prints just kept rising. And he was doing prints for Circle Gallery and for a lot of themore – I wouldn’t call ‘em schlock galleries, but galleries that didn’t have the prestige, and they werecommercial vendors of work. But his work was selling at – And I know Will would tell me that the amount ofmoney I gave him for an edition was a fraction of what he was getting from some of these big galleries. But Ididn’t want editions. I’d have an edition of a hundred; these guys would have editions of 250, 300, 40 artistsproofs. I mean, on and on and on. And I remember at the time – I think Elena used to sort of call me Will’sconscience, because I would try to say, “Will –” You know, he was one of the few artists that managed to stayaway from falling into the abyss of a LeRoy Neiman or a schlock artist. I mean, he – But he just scaled that. It’s avery narrow thing of these artists that were mass producing prints in large editions and being sold by people likeJohn Soke [ph] and – and others. Will managed to sort of stay above that level.

He always had good dealers. He had trouble staying, because dealers would fall apart. I think his first dealer wasScott Waddington. It was a guy with W. Very nice dealer on 57th Street [Richard Waddell, Waddell Gallery]. Andthen he died or committed suicide — something strange happened. Then he went to Kennedy. MaybeDintenfass, Kennedy – And then Hirshl & Adler or maybe Hirschland. And then when Hirshl & Adler changed, theygot rid of all their contemporary artists, including Will. That’s when he probably went to Kennedy. And thenDintenfass. And now he’s with –

MS. BERMAN: Tibor de Nagy.

MR. COLE: Tibor de Nagy. And quite happy. Philip Alexander over there is – knows Will and seems to be –Because Philip came from Dintenfass and – And they had their first show of Will’s work, of the very abstractperiod, which got good reviews and good coverage. And I know Will – I just spoke to him yesterday, and he’s ontop of the world. He took these prints that I had shown at the Print Fair, had a big show of these prints, aboutfourteen or sixteen of them, in the Hamptons over the weekend. And he said, “Sylvan, they sold out. There wereeleven prints sold the first night.” So he’s really happy, and tons of people, lots of people.

MS. BERMAN: Just are – just for the tape these are prints of the forties.

MR. COLE: These were prints from 1936 to ‘46 that he had never editioned. [MS. BERMAN: Right] Found theplates, and made editions of fifteen to twenty five. And they have done quite well. The price range is somewherearound 600 to 1200 dollars.

MS. BERMAN: Well, I remember when they found the plates, because – I think it was also last November, I wasover there – or October – visiting them, and you came by, and I was helping them tack them up in a taxi. Youand Mary came by as they were – They had just gotten – I don’t know what book they were.

MR. COLE: Right, well –

MS. BERMAN: They happened to be doing –

MR. COLE: I remember I first saw them last September. And that’s when I said, “I’ll put ‘em in the Print Fair.”

MS. BERMAN: In October.

MR. COLE: In November, and I sold 85 prints in four days. But I had very special opening prices, which were onlygood for the fair. People did take advantage of that. I sold – let’s see – to Block Gallery at Northwestern, I sold toa museum in Missouri. Yeah, I did quite well.

MS. BERMAN: That art, yeah, that print fair and that art fair in February, everybody did magnificently, as far as Iunderstood.

MR. COLE: Well, I think so. I didn’t go in the Art Fair this year; I’d gone in 1999, and I had a disaster. I went in1998, and sold moderate six figures, which for a print dealer, was fine. But ‘99, which I broke my rule of going

every other year, ‘cause I’d done so well in ‘98, and I got killed. I think I did twenty five, thirty thousand dollarsworth of business. And I had the best material I’d ever had, I mean – But it wasn’t that inexpensive, andprobably competed too much with paintings.

MS. BERMAN: Now I’m gonna go back to – I – I have this long list of other artists that we’ve mentioned. Oh, also,I just – for Will, you know, in – in terms of that, I mean, how do you evaluate him as a printmaker, hiscontributions to American printmaking.

MR. COLE: Whew! I think Will’s very hard to place. He – He is probably the most knowledgeable in all aspects ofartistic making, whether it’s painting or gesso or etching or wood or what. He is completely professional in theseareas. He has done ‘em all. He has actually been a printer at the Art Students League when he was younger. Andhis knowledge is vast. He has had his students, tons of artists. He’s loved and respected. His work – He’s trappedby different periods. He went from a very Depression era type Americana. He, at the time, looks at a couple ofhis works, like Air in the City and Child on a Tenement Window as the first dealing with ecology and that sortathing. He then goes into a semi-abstract movement with color in his prints, as well as in his paintings that getinto that area; and then into very abstract, completely abstract, wonderful images. The Big Duluth and othersthat are standards. And then he comes out of that into family and cats and sort of a Oriental style of – mutedpalette, serene and soft. Which most of art cognoscenti thinks isn’t very good. And this is, of course, what’s beenselling like hotcakes in the print area. I think with Will, it’s an endless struggle for recognition. He isn’t jealous;he just feels that he never gets quite the recognition that the stars get, like Rauschenberg, Johns. He’s very closeto Jim Rosenquist.

MS. BERMAN: That – he was a student.

MR. COLE: And – Yeah, and Jim is very devoted to Will. And – and – You know, I don’t think Will resents Jim’ssuccess at all, but he feels that he should be there, too. I don’t know how Will works out economically. I knowhe’s comfortable. He has a rather small studio, which you’ve been to, in New York at the National Arts Club. AndI think he’s leaving probably end of this week to go up to Maine to visit Una and her family, and the kids havenow grown; I mean, his two grandchildren with her. And it’s also Elena’s grandchildren. And I keep saying, “Will,you’re adored, you’re loved, you’re honored; you get honor after honor. Be at peace, you know; don’t try to besomething that you’re not.” And I think he is more comfortable. I mean, he’s just overwhelmed and bubbly withwhat happened at the Hamptons this last weekend. He needs it; it’s the adrenaline. He said, “I’m worn out, butthere were hundreds of people that came to the show, and I met so many people, and old friends, and it was justwonderful,” he says to me. He stayed with Judy and Gus Leiber. And evidently, they have a palace, which I’vealways wanted to get to. ‘Cause I showed Gus when he was just a youngster, in a way. And his name was thenGerson Leiber, still is. And he – I gave him a show years back, in the late fifties, early sixties. And he was working– He was married to this Hungarian that he had met during World War II or something, maybe, I don’t know. Andsuddenly, she was making success selling ladies purses and pocketbooks, and suddenly Gus was busy being –handling those shipments. And suddenly Judy became a household thing, and so Gus made art. He’s got themost fantastic studio, I mean, in the East Thirties, right off Park Avenue South. I mean, it’s just so vast, with afront sitting area and sort of a place for fixing things, and then you go in back and there’s all sorts of presses andwoodworking material and this and just, just amazing! And he goes there every day and works, of course.They’re now in the Hamptons for the summer. They live in a penthouse on Park Avenue and 34th. They live awonderful life. And of course, Judy got bought out about three or four years ago for, evidently, millions andmillions and millions; she was retained as an advisor, but she finally just stopped that; it was just a show thing.And I don’t whether the Leiber bags today are anything like what she produced. But Will and Elena stayed withthem for the weekend, and he said it was so elegant it was amazing. But he’s a happy man today. I mean,whether that’ll last a week, two weeks, three weeks or something, I can’t tell.

I know in the fall, there’s gonna be a show of some of these prints at Tibor de Nagy, plus a drawing show.

MS. BERMAN: Well, he had that retrospective at Montclair [Will Barnet Traveling Solo Retrospective 2000-2001.Montclair Art Museum, Montclair, New Jersey. May 14-August 20, 2000] recently. I mean, I know it’s –

MR. COLE: Well, you see, there is, to Will, [MS. BERMAN: It’s never enough] a waste of effort. I mean, Montclair,he’s delighted, and it is traveling, I think, to someplace in Maine, someplace in Florida. And I know it’s going tothe Arkansas Art Center. But the venues aren’t the Boston Museum of Fine Arts. It isn’t enough. I understandthat. It should’ve been at the Boston Museum. It should go to the Whitney. I don’t think – You know, I do notthink he is not at least worthy of that. I really feel that he is. I really feel that certain artists just fall through thecracks because it just doesn’t work. I mean, Soyer did get his Whitney show; Will will never get one.

I remember years ago when Lloyd Goodrich was director and Tom Benton was gonna be, I think, 80. 75, 80. AndI remember when Picasso and Braque became 80, all of Madison Avenue made it the biggest thing that everhappened. And I went to Lloyd and I said, “Tom’s gonna be 75.” I think it was 75. “Why don’t we do somethingfor American artists?” And this was several years in advance. And I’ll never forget it; they were booked, they

couldn’t do it, didn’t work out. Whatever. And I do remember on Tom’s 75th birthday, I had a major, major printshow of all his prints. And the Whitney had a show of Helen Frankenthaller.

There’s no answers to these things. I think the trendiness of this art world gets very confusing. It’s veryconfusing now. I mean, it’s – I don’t know how you follow it as an art historian. I mean, I look at the papers andsee ads for artists or reviews on artists I’ve never heard of and dealers I never heard of. And maybe this is anormal turning over, but it seemed to me, 30, 40, 50 years ago, you knew everybody and you went to openings.I don’t know. It’s too much with this.

MS. BERMAN: I think there are many, many, many more artists now. There must be over a hundred thousandartists in New York City, easily. Easily.

MR. COLE: Easily.

MS. BERMAN: And now there are several – you know, there are many more galleries. But you yourself said at onepoint that you were on a panel with Motherwell, and you said, “Bob, I can’t believe we’re in the same art world.[MR. COLE: Yeah] So you didn’t know everybody.

MR. COLE: That’s right.

MS. BERMAN: So, you know – And there’s – I mean, there are some – You know, all these struggling artists outthere are doing something radical that I don’t know anything about because they’re, you know, they’re talkingto themselves and, you know, and I – I can’t be in Hoboken and Williamsburg and the Lower East Side and inSoHo and all, you know – Unless you’re –

MR. COLE: I have no desire. I don’t know whether it’s a complete turnoff. I mean, I can’t remember – I think Iwent – I didn’t even go to the opening of the Whitney Biennial. First one I probably missed in 40 years. And I – Iwent to a private thing, where there were about 40 people and you could really see it, and spend an hour thereand saw what – I don’t remember too much. But I find – You know, thinking I – When I became a private dealer,that would be wonderful; I’ll be able to get out and see all the shows I wanna see, and I’ll do this and I’ll do that.And I don’t do it, I – I’m a member – Museum of Modern Art, I haven’t been to in almost a year and a half. Usedto go at least three times, four times a year. The Met, I still go to quite often. Had to see TilmanRiemenschneider. I wrote a paper on him in college.

MS. BERMAN: Let me see how much time we have. Well, we can start. You know what I wanted to ask you aboutwas Lozowick. Did you have a relationship –

MR. COLE: Oh, Louie was just the sweetest person. I never had a close relationship with him. I never evenpublished a print. He had given me two prints of – proofs of prints to possibly consider publishing, probably inthe late sixties. And I didn’t. I didn’t think they were extremely interesting. But Louie had really been hid under arock for a while. And then Dane [ph] somebody sort of took him on. A framer. And started advertising it as thegreatest American artist or something. And somehow, the Whitney gave him a show of his prints. I don’t knowwhether Judy Goldman had something to do with that or it’s before her time. But that suddenly broughtLozowick into view again. This was early seventies. And I think he died shortly thereafter. I thought: Howwonderful that he had this show while he was still alive.

And then I became very close to Adele, his widow. And I did one or two Lozowick shows. I remember we did oneof Lozowick’s New York, in which the catalogue had a map of New York City, a street map. And then I hadnumbers of where Hanover Square or the Fisk Building or whatever. And Coney Island, the whole thing. And then– But Lozowick was like so many artists I’ve known, where works they had done early on were mouth dropping. Imean, really. New York and Minneapolis, Chicago, Luna Park. I mean, among the greatest prints made inAmerica. And this happened to me with two other artists, where – it couldn’t happen today – but one wasSpruance. And Benton Spruance, I gave his first show ever in New York. And it was sort of a wily game. I mean, Iliked Benton Spruance, and I liked his work. It was either allegorical or religious or landscapes. Big color prints,which he printed himself. Color and all. He was an expert printer. And so we had this show in New York. Sixties,late sixties. And I knew, too, that he was a friend of John Canaday, so I figured: Ah, we’ll get a review. AndCanaday never covered the show; I think Brian O’Doherty or somebody else did. And –

But then it wasn’t ‘til after he died that I suddenly found this early work, the people work, the precisionist work. Imean, it was incredible. And I guess it was early eighties that Margo Dolan of – who was then Dolan Maxwell –and I had left Associated American Artists. She used to run AAA in Philadelphia – bought this massive collectionof Spruance. It’s one of almost every print he ever did, from Father Fletcher. And I negotiated, bought thiscollection from him; brought it in, divided it with Margo. And we had some shows, and of course we had a greatsuccess with that early material. I – I sold some things to the Whitney, some other museums; Margot did thesame. So that was a surprise, based on what I knew of Benton.

And the third artist was Werner Drewes. And I don’t know if I covered him before.

MS. BERMAN : No, we haven’t.

MR. COLE: Well, Werner Drewes – In 1958 or ‘59, I gave him a purchase prize in our twenty – AAA’s 25thanniversary print competition, to celebrate AAA’s 25th anniversary; so it had to b ‘59. I know I told you, I think,that Una Johnson and William Collins were the jurors. And they gave certain prizes. But I also gave purchaseawards, where I purchased an edition at a fixed fee, which I arranged with the artist, from all the works that hadbeen submitted. And I – Werner Drewes did a black, green, and white small woodcut of – Reflections, I think thatwas the title, of trees reflecting in a pond. And I bought the whole edition. And that’s how I first met him.Whether he was still in St. Louis then or not, I don’t know. I do know he moved to Reston, Virginia somewhere inthe course of probably the sixties or seventies. I know his wife had passed away and he’s remarried. He had twogrown sons, one of whom I still see, who –

MS. BERMAN: Well, one of them sort of still either manages or [MR. COLE: Yeah] takes care of the – the – theestate.

MR. COLE: Yeah, Wolfgang.

MS. BERMAN: Yes. [MR. COLE: And –] he pronounces his name Drewes. [MR. COLE: Yeah] He Americanized it.

MR. COLE: Right. And anyway, I was handing Werner’s prints; they were mostly landscapes, California redwoods,and a few abstracts from the late seventies. He sort of – Which were very marketable, very corporate-like.Corporations were buying those. And I published a second print of a – of a harbor scene. And boats and – Prettyscene. And it did very well. And then he kept bugging me for a retrospective. And he kept saying, “Well, yougave one to Karl Schrag, and one to Louie Shanker and Dick Florsheim – I forget who all, I – Will Barnet. Youknow. And he wanted a retrospective. So finally I gave in. And I think it was 19 – shortly before I left, 1980, ‘81.The show was to be in January or February. And I went down – I’m sure it was January that I went down, it was –And I flew down to Washington, rented a car, and got lost finding my way to Reston, and got there at noon. Butbefore I left, I had called him and I said, “Werner –”

[BEGIN TAPE FOUR, SIDE ONE]

MS. BERMAN: – interviewing Sylvan Cole for the Archives of American Art on October 11, 2000. Now, Sylvan, whydon’t we begin where we left off, at which you were going to see Werner Drewes, and you were – had justarrived in Reston, Virginia, where he lived.

MR. COLE: As I – This may be repetitive, but Werner had been after me for a retrospective. He had sort of citedall the retrospectives that I had given to various artists, like Will Barnet and Karl Schrag and Louie Shanker andon and on. And he said that he certainly ranked with them, and I should’ve given him one. So I agreed to. And Iremember in January I went down. And probably around 1981, or ‘80, I’m not sure, I went down to – flew down toWashington, rented a car, and drove to Reston. I got lost on the way, but finally got to his house, roughly aroundnoon time. And they wanted me to have lunch, and I said no, I’d like to go right to work; that I didn’t – I had solittle time, I wanted to definitely be getting back to New York around five o’clock.

And I had already told Werner what I had in mind. I had in mind for the retrospective that we would take tenprints from the thirties, ten from the forties, ten from the fifties, ten from the sixties, and ten from the seventiesand early eighties, which would give us about sixty prints, and we’d have a balanced show. When I got upstairsinto the studio, where he had made the piles of these decades of prints, we started off with the late twenties andthirties, and it just blew my mind. It was absolutely material I had never seen. It was wonderful. I don’t think itwas common knowledge about – that he had done this. At least, it certainly wasn’t anything I knew. And I keptsaying, “Werner, I want this and I want this.” Oh – And he kept saying, “Well, wait until you get to the latermaterial.” I said, “Oh –” And before I knew it, I had at least twenty prints from the late twenties, early thirties. Ihad no trouble picking ten prints or so from the forties. And at that time, we broke for lunch, we came back. Andby the time we got to the fifties and sixties, there was a relatively weak period of production. He had movedfrom the –

I should go back a little. In the thirties, he not only had these wonderful abstract, almost Kandinksy-like images,but he also had a lot of cityscapes of New York and bridges and things like that. And it seemed that one wasdone for commercial purposes, and the other for his own use. And – Getting back to the fifties, he had redwoodtrees, sequoias, portraits, a whole variety of fairly uninteresting, though professionally done work. I think in thefifties and sixties, I probably took six or eight prints each decade. And then when we got to the seventies andeighties, he went back to this color abstract imagery, which again, was very strong, surprisingly strong. Thethirties and forties were mostly black and white. But here he had added color. And we put the show together.

I think I mentioned in the previous interview that once the show was on the walls, it just was wonderful. And I hit

what I call a homerun, because I do know the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Whitney Museum, the New YorkPublic Library, the Modern, and the Brooklyn all bought from that show. And that, in a way, sort of broughtDrewes back into being a major, major artist.

He died shortly thereafter, and the – I wish I could remember the name of that suite of ten prints that was themajor achievement. It had a cover of a swastika-type thing. And I – I have to look that up and just give it to you.But he did a major suite of ten prints. And I think I had most of them in the show, though I did not have the suiteitself. And as a matter of fact, that suite, I’ve only seen probably twice in my life, because I think it was alwaysbroken up and sold separately.

MS. BERMAN: Were there any other artists that you were close to that, you know, you think we might – shoulddiscuss?

MR. COLE: I think I was close to a lot of artists. I’m just trying to think if I’ve left any out that were important inmy life. Did I talk about Dick Florsheim at all?

MS. BERMAN: Yes, extensively.

MR. COLE: Because he was sort of a real friend in my life, and he lived up and down, the life of a typical artist,where he had a certain amount of fame, and then just got forgotten. I don’t think I can add too many to – that Ihaven’t mentioned. I mentioned [inaudible], I know.I think I mentioned – Joe Hirsch?

MS. BERMAN: Well, you didn’t go into him in detail at all, you just mentioned –

MR. COLE: Well, there was such a variety of artists. I mean, I do think that – I would not be exaggerating if Ididn’t say that during my career I worked with at least a thousand artists, of which probably twenty or thirtywere of major import, and the rest were itinerant, almost, artists that just did their thing. And some arose tofame, like Peter Milton, in his own way or Carol Summers in his own way. There – there were certain printmakersthat became strong individual image makers. And – But I think – One must realize that by the time I hit myheyday, which was sixties and seventies, coming on at the same time with the beginnings of Tatyana Grosman’sworkshop out in Long Island, June Wayne starting Tamarind – And the big names were emerging, which I hadlittle or no contact with. The Jasper Johns, the Rauschenberg, the Warhol. Subsequently, [Roy] Lichtenstein,[Joseph] Stella, [James] Rosenquist. I – I knew Larry Rivers sort of in passing, and we still sort of nod when wesee each other. I did meet all these artists at one time or another. But it was never on a – I never worked withany of them professionally. Whenever I had works by these artists, I always got ‘em through the publishers thatwere publishing them.

MS. BERMAN: Well, let’s also – let’s – let’s talk – What – Did you have any kind of relationship with TatyanaGrosman?

MR. COLE: She came in several times. I went out to see her. I just missed the boat. I mean, she showed meprints of a coat hanger done by a young artist named Jasper Johns, to retail for seventy five dollars. And it – itjust was nothing to me. It – it – I can’t explain. I do remember vividly that print. And I remember Jill Kornbleetook over, because I wouldn’t show these artists. And she had a show in her gallery. I think it was 1018 Madisonor something like that. And they were all these, coat hanger and the other works of the artists that Tatyanaproduced. I do remember I had a Stones, which Larry Rivers did with Frank O’Hara. I remember buying a setsomehow and – and selling it. I – I remember having various of her artists at different times. I do remembergetting involved with Motherwell. But – My clients did not come to Associated American Artists to buy that kindof material. They were following the Benton, Curry, Wood tradition, the Americana, the representational. Sloan,Marsh. And also the old masters. And the French. Certainly, the Picasso, Braque, Chagall, Miró. And this was whatwas our stock in trade. I mean, this is what I kept buying. And – While I think I was adventurous at various timesin – in the historical area, where I put on an Ensor show or put on a show of the French late 18th, early 19thcentury of [Felix-Hilaire] Buhot and [Auguste] Lepère and – and various artists, I did not get adventurous in thecontemporary.

MS. BERMAN: Now, it just occurred to me, another artist – And also, you can – I’d like you to discuss him as andartist and then as a curator in force in the print world, I want to ask you about is Jacob Kainen, because Iremember, when you said coat hangers, that Jacob bought that very early on at the Smithsonian, and waslooked at very strangely.

MR. COLE: Jacob Kainen used to come in the gallery frequently. We were friends, very good friends. I rememberwhen I was once on holiday in Provincetown, Jake was there at the same time, and we had a chance to betogether. It was right after he had a split with his wife, and he was not a happy camper, and it was before hemarried his present wife. Jake would buy prints from AAA. He had an amazing eye. He – I remember one of hismost important purchases, which is important to me, was Stuart Davis. And I had done a pretty important Stuart

Davis show early on. I – I did at least two. But I know I did one, and a lot of the museums bought. Jake was one ofthem. And he wanted a discount. I had traditionally given a 10% discount for all museum purchases. And I wassort of proud of museum sales. To me, it gave credibility to the gallery when a museum bought something thatAvis Berman could buy or somebody. You know: Look, a museum bought this. And it was sort of a GoodHousekeeping stamp of approval.

Anyway, Jake wanted the 10%. And I called Roselle Davis, and she said, “No, they’re not entitled to 10%. Wherewere they when Stuart was alive? Why didn’t they buy then?” So I remember telling Jake that. I remembersaying, “Jake, Roselle said you should’ve bought sooner. Why did you wait until he had passed on?” And Jakesaid, “I tried. But Edith Halpert would never bother to show me prints.” She wasn’t interested in ten or fifteendollar sales. And now, of course, the prints were certainly no longer fifteen dollars. I think – I think I hadBarbershop at around three thousand dollars. And I only had one to sell of the thing. And I had plenty of Theateron the Beach and Two Figures & El, and they were each eighteen hundred. And the French – eleven Frenchprints were very difficult to sell, and they were all in the four to six hundred dollar range but Jake used to tell mehe was taking money he could get easily for typewriters and desks and put it into art.

MS. BERMAN: Right. That’s true. Supplies, that’s what –

MR. COLE: That’s right.

MS. BERMAN: Now – now, how do you evaluate him as an artist, as a printmaker?

MR. COLE: Oh, I have trouble with that. He certainly was – did many very good WPA prints of the traditionalDepression era type. His abstracts? I think they’ve always been in good taste, beautiful. I published one or two.I’ve gone to almost every show Jake has ever had and I’m familiar with his work. And in fact, his last show wasjust over on Fifth, the Fuller Building, and still – almost in a wheelchair, but still doing interesting and wonderfulwork. I know one time there was a black tie thing in Washington, which I went to. I can’t recall what it was, but Ido remember that my wife and I went to his home, where – We used that as a changing place. And I rememberhis showing me his – part of his collection of the German Expressionists and things like that, which were soextraordinary.

MS. BERMAN: Without a doubt. Did he show you the Munch prints, that they – they have Munch, as well.

MR. COLE: Oh, I don’t think I saw them all at that time. I mean, I do remember seeing the Beckmanns and – andsome of the others. In fact, he had even bought some of the German Expressionist prints from me. Ruth was –He was married to Ruth then, and he was living in sort of the grand style. It was a marriage really made inheaven. Ruth Cole, my – We call each other cousins. And she was just great for Jake, and – and – He deservedwhat he got. He deserved all the happiness that he got from her, and the fact that he was financially able to buyworks personally, and – You know, he’ll go through – Even at the recent Print Fair, he went through my casesand, you know, and – Then he said, “Well, I’ll go through this again,” and he pulled out a couple of Averys and hesaid, “I’ll buy those.” I mean, he’s still sensitive, and still acquiring and – I don’t think the purchase was madebecause we were just friends; I think he really liked the prints and wanted ‘em.

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm. Definitely –

MR. COLE: But he hardly ever goes to a fair and doesn’t buy something from me. It might be a five hundreddollar print.

MS. BERMAN: They have a wonderful collection, and they have – Well, they have John Graham, and they have awonderful Rothko watercolor.

MR. COLE: Oh, I haven’t been down there in years.

MS. BERMAN: Well, I think that we should – we should progress and –

MR. COLE: By the way, I forgot to tell you, one time Jake’s son worked for AAA. I think he lasted a month.

MS. BERMAN: Dan?

MR. COLE: What?

MS. BERMAN: Dan Kainen?

MR. COLE: Yeah.

MS. BERMAN: Oh, no.

MR. COLE: When I went to the opening at the Fuller Building about a year ago, he came over to me and he said,“Hey, remember, I used to work for you.” And –

MS. BERMAN: I didn’t know that.

MR. COLE: I had some amazing – Did I tell you about Lessing Rosenwald’s granddaughter working for me?

MS. BERMAN: No.

MR. COLE: Betsy, yeah. Yeah, I think I mentioned that.

MS. BERMAN: Oh, I think – Well, you had mentioned that Andre Emmerich had worked –

MR. COLE: I worked with Andre. We were both hired at the same time, 1946. Same year. That’s when HelenFrankenthaler was still at Bennington.

MS. BERMAN: Right, right. Well, I – I wanna talk about the impact of, you know, about some of the major printcurators. And I guess I would start with Hyatt Mayor over at the Metropolitan, or if you had any [inaudible].

MR. COLE: Hyatt was a really good friend. He was just wonderful. He had an enthusiasm that – and a love ofprints that – It seems that that era of curator were – had the time to be scholarly and to know about prints fromthe playing cards of the 15th century to what was being produced that very decade. They were very free insharing information, very enthusiastic about somebody as – like myself, who was younger, loving prints as theydid. And it was a wonderful relationship I had with Hyatt. I’m sure I told the story of the Feiningers.

MS. BERMAN: No.

MR. COLE: When I got the Feininger collections?

MS. BERMAN: No, no.

MR. COLE: Bill Lieberman, on his birthday, February 14th, [Laughs] took me down to Julia Feininger for supper.And this was 22nd Street and Second Avenue, I think, in a very ordinary apartment. Living room, kitchen, diningarea – and the area was like a closet – little hallway, which had a bedroom – a bathroom on one side, and acloset on the other, and a bedroom. And Feininger even worked there in that apartment. We had some cheeseand crackers and stuff and goodies that Bill had brought. And then we discussed my taking over the estate forprints. And she said fine and I made an appointment with her. The following day or two days later, came down,spent the afternoon with her. We sort of inventoried the prints that she had. And I guess it took us a couple ofweeks to do that, organize them – And they ended up in, I would say, three boxes. It was over a thousand prints.And after we were through with the inventory – There were interesting things that would happen. Like we’d findtwo prints, both the same, and one would be marked first state and the other second state. And we’d be looking.And I’d say, “I see it.” And she said, “Don’t tell me, let me find it.” And in one print, he had a little window, in theother he didn’t. And – Or sometimes she’d say, “I wonder if Lyonel’s playing a trick on us, [MS. BERMAN Laughs]in making a first state and second state.”

Anyway, finally we got through with the inventory, and so she said, “Well,” she said, “Take ‘em.” So I got on thephone and I called the shipping department at Murray Kaplan, I said, “Murray, get a taxi, hold the taxi, and comeup and help me carry these cases down.” And we carried ‘em down, got back in the taxi, took ‘em to the gallery.So there we had all these prints. And then I got involved with Leona Prasse, because she went through everyone of them, and she was doing the catalogue raisonné.

MS. BERMAN: Leona Prasse.

MR. COLE: So I gave her an office where she could work. And it was on the – We were on the – at 605 FifthAvenue, which is between 48th and 49th. We had started on the third floor of that building, and we grew to thefourth and fifth floors. So we had three floors in that building. It was a – sort of a brownstone, floor-throughfloors. And she was up on the fifth floor, and through the intercom she’d say, “Sylvan, come on up, I foundanother state.” So I’d go running up and – Anyway – And I used to tease her. I’d say, “Ya know, Julia’s nevergonna live to see this.” And she said, “Well, you’re a dealer and I’m a scholar.” I wanted her to hurry things up.The only other person that ever said that to me, too, was Gail Levin. But – And ah, God – I got involved with heron the Hopper prints. She didn’t know an etching from a lithograph. Anyway, that’s an aside.

Finally, Bill Lieberman suggested that the first show be called Ships and Seas. He knew the work so much betterthan I. So I picked out a hundred prints, I think with his help, that dealt with ships and seas from big to smalllittle sailboats and – And he wrote the essay for the first catalogue. And Julia was alive. And Edith came to theopening, and so did the one who taught up in –

MS. BERMAN: Was that T. Lux or –?

MR. COLE: That’s right, T. Lux Feininger, the one who taught up at Cambridge. And so I met them for the firsttime. And – But before the show was mounted, I called Hyatt. And I said, “Hyatt, let’s have lunch. I want you tosee the Feininger –” I – I never let on that I had so many prints. I mean, this was a hundred I was putting on themarket. And we went to lunch and – at Longchamps, which was my hangout, between 48th and 49th. Came backto the gallery, and he started going through the prints. And he said, “Oh, Sylvan, what a dessert. Best dessertI’ve had in years!” And he was so excited, so excited. And “Oh, isn’t this wonderful?” He got through all hundred,and I looked at him, and he said, “Sylvan, this has been a privilege.” And I said, “Well, Hyatt, are there any thereyou’d like?” “Oh, I’d like ‘em all!” I said, “Hyatt, are there any there you’d like to buy?” And he said, “Oh, Sylvan,we don’t have the money. And besides, we’re gonna get ‘em all anyway.” And it was the thought that everythingthat was important or great would be – go into commerce, and then be willed to the Metropolitan Museum of Art.And out he went. Not a one!

So the second person I called was Harold Joachim from the Art Institute of Chicago. Harold flew in. Went throughthe hundred, picked fifteen – which in those days was probably, I don’t know, twelve, fifteen thousand dollars,the price of one print today – and picked, without question, the fifteen best. There wasn’t one other in the other85 that you said, “Well, that’s – probably he missed that.” He picked the fifteen best. Unerring eye. Complete –And he did it quickly. He went through them once, he went through them a second time, put ‘em aside, and thenhe, without any review, he said, “These are the ones I want.” I said, “Well, you can’t have ‘em ‘til after theshow.” He said, “That’s fine.” And that’s my story with those two.

I subsequently, I think, [Eleanor] Sayre came in; I think [Carl] Zigrosser came in, didn’t buy anything. I thinkPhiladelphia was the only museum I didn’t sell. But – And then years later, John McHenry[ph] came in and boughtFeiningers from me. And I remember I gave them one as a personal gift, which – He called me, he said, “Sylvan,you’re in our New Acquisitions show,” and I sort of felt very proud to see “Gift of Sylvan Cole” on the wall, with agreat print. But yeah, McHenry sort of tried to fill in some of the strange gaps – even Grant Wood – that Hyatthad not bothered with. Not that Hyatt had made mistakes. It was just his way of acquiring, and he was moreconcerned with building the – the collection to having the best impressions of everything they could get, whetherit was Chandor or Rembrandt or – or Feininger. But Feininger was too close to his thinking to go out and spendmoney on it.

MS. BERMAN: Now, I’m – I’m confused. Now, wasn’t – Was it [Carl O.] Schniewind who was [Curator of Prints andDrawings] at the Art Institute, or –?

MR. COLE: Schniewind had died. Or had resigned – or I – I never knew Schniewind.

MS. BERMAN: Oh, ok. Right, ok – so you dealt with Joachim.

MR. COLE: No. No, Joachim, in the early sixties – I think the first show was 1963 – was the curator. And highlyregarded.

MS. BERMAN: Right, definitely.

MR. COLE: Yeah. Sayre was in Boston. Zigrosser was Philadelphia, Mayor was New York and Joachim wasChicago. And those were the biggies.

MS. BERMAN: So – Well, I – And also, Bill Lieberman, of course.

MR. COLE: Oh, well, Bill Lieberman was usually modern art.

MS. BERMAN: Right.

MR. COLE: And Bill had no interest, because they had so much gifts from her. I mean, they had a great Feiningercollection. And Bill, I – I first met in ‘46. Bill and I have known each other now 64 years – 54 years. I mean, myGod! We were just in our twenties. And he had been made curator of prints at the Modern. I think he had hadthat job for a few years. I had just come out of the service and was starting with AAA. And Bill would come overonce or twice a year and look at our five dollar prints. And occasionally buy something. He was never snobbishabout it. It was just part of his job. And I know I usually worked with him. It’s funny, years and years and yearslater, I remember he traded me a [Paul] Gauguin from Estampe Moderne for a couple of Grant Woods that Iowned personally. And it went into the Museum of Modern Art collection. But that was years later. That had to bein the sixties.

We worked – He was really a very good friend. I mean, he was, I would say, always a professional. Even withyour friendship, it was a professional – And with all his relationships – and I’ve known Bill with – We used to havedinner often together at Louise Smith’s. And he’s very fond of my wife. I remember when Lee Krasner died, he –

he took Lillyan; I couldn’t go out to the service. Very conscientious of maintaining – knowing what therelationship’s about. I mean, recently, Emilio Sanchez, who was a friend of both of ours, a Cuban-born, Yale-educated artist, passed away. And Bill called me and said, “I just got word that Emilio died.” And the service wason such and such a day, and he knew I’d wanna know and go. And of course, it was in the papers, but Bill calledme before. And we went to the service, and Bill gave a beautiful eulogy.

But Bill – This would have to be off the record until both of us died. Bill was very aware of his strengths. He wasdevastated after the schism came with the Museum of Modern Art. He – When Rubin was brought on – And it wasa troika arrangement, after Bates Lowry had been there and wasn’t working out. And Bill was made Director ofCollections, Rubin was made Director of Exhibitions, and Oldenburg was made director of whatever. All the rest.Administration or something. And then Rubin pushed Bill out. Rubin said, “I cannot be Director of Exhibitionswithout having the collection at hand.” And the board offered Bill a year sabbatical and director of thedepartment of drawings. He could not go back to prints, because Riva Castleman, his assistant, had becomeCurator of Prints. So Bill took the sabbatical. And I remember his – See, he and I had a community apart in FireIsland, so I see more of him in the summer than I do all year round. And I remember Bill discussing being offereda job in Washington at the – I think the National Gallery, I don’t remember that, but I – I think it was. And I usedto say, “Bill, you’re a New York person. You cannot possibly leave New York.” I said, “The department ofdrawings isn’t the worst thing in the world. You love the Modern, and you’re still – Everybody who knows youknows who you are and your scholarship. Nobody is gonna look at this as a demotion or anything.”

But then Tom Hess died. And – and a miracle. I mean, you think of strange things. Henry Geldzahler decides toleave the Met, where he could be forever, to become commissioner of art, city affairs, or whatever. Tom Hessleaves Art News, goes to become curator of 20th century art at the Met, and dies suddenly. Who is the mostperfect person for that job in the whole world? Bill Lieberman. Absolutely the most – Absolutely. 20th century art.Knew it backwards and forwards. Under Alfred Barr, under [Rene] d’Harnoncourt. So, I mean, it was never – Imean, I was so sure he’d get it. I mean, and I think Bill had worries and concerns, but it happened relativelyquickly. He got it. And he’s gotten a couple of brickbats since, they – But he has done so much good for thatmuseum. That collection he got from Chicago, which the Modern would’ve gotten; certain paintings he got fromLouise Smith’s collection. I mean, on and on. He really knew where these things were and I – I – I know – Bill, tode Montebello, is one of the fair haired boys of the world. In spite of some criticism that he gets from artpublications on his purchases of contemporary art. But that’s – Nobody’s ever gonna not get criticism for that.

And Bill is very private. He is – He has so many assets – aspects to him. I mean, he’s one way with one person,he’s one way with another, he’s – he’s – But as I say, he’s a consummate professional. And he’s working all thetime. Even at – socially. I mean – He was – Oh, the – Whatever name, the people, the two yachts from Mexicothat gave the great Matisse, The Sailor, to the Met.

MS. BERMAN: Oh, oh, yeah, the Gelmans.

MR. COLE: The Gelmans.

MS. BERMAN: Gelmans, mm-hm.

MR. COLE: I mean, Bill used to tell me unbelievable stories! Here are these people, with twin yachts. In theMediterranean. He would join them in Rome or something. Go onboard one of the yachts. Laid out on the bedwere shorts his size; shirts, sport shirts, his size; money, hundred dollars, in the currency; robes, whatever. Thenthey would take off, let’s say for Naples, and at night, the ships would come together. And one night they’d eaton one ship, and one night on the other. And the chefs would vie to make the best meals ever, ever, ever. And Ithink la Paz, is he the writer?

MS. BERMAN: Mario Paz, or Octavio? Octavio. The one – One of them won the Nobel – there was Mario Paz andthere was Octavio Paz.

MR. COLE: Well, I think it’s Octavio was aboard and – I mean, all these amazing people. One time they didTurkey. And Bill – All these days, they’d just go in and out. But that’s another connection. I mean, of course theRockefellers, he knew well. Philip Johnson. Who’s the lovely guy who was acting director of the Met for a while –of the Modern? Heavy, a big collector.

MS. BERMAN: Paley, no.

MR. COLE: No, no. It’s not – But another good friend of Bill’s. Oh. German Expressionist. German born. I think itbegins with a B.

MS. BERMAN: An artist?

MR. COLE: No, he’s a wealthy industrialist. American now. Lives here. And he was on the board of the Modern

forever, and he was acting –

MS. BERMAN: Oh, oh, Walter Bareiss.

MR. COLE: Right.

MS. BERMAN: Ok.

MR. COLE: Gosh, I’m glad you’re – You are so perfect for this; you know all these people. Yeah, Walter Bareiss.Also very, very close to Bill. But people like Julia Feininger. I mean, Julia used to cry that Bill wouldn’t take hercalls. I mean, Bill had done his job with her. He had placed the watercolors and things with Marlborough. Colin,Ralph Colin was her attorney. Sylvan Cole took care of the prints. And it was done. And Julia would call him. I –I’d call him, I’d say, “Bill, Julia is crying. You’ve got to at least say hello to her once in a while.” He said, “Sylvan,I really am very busy.”

When Bill’s out in Fire Island, nobody knows he’s there. He rents a house, where he rents the front part of thehouse, with linoleum on the floor – Living room, counter, kitchen, bedroom, bedroom, bath. And a little deck. Sitsthere, reads all day long. Fixes Scotch and sodas all day long. Loves gossip. I mean, I’ve met Rockefeller kids outthere, I’ve met Stuart Preston. I mean, he – The son of the king of someplace, you know. Amazing.

MS. BERMAN: Well, yeah, I imagine – I imagine that on vacation, he doesn’t – he just wants to sit there and chill[inaudible].

MR. COLE: He goes out – He takes the train or the bus. He goes on Friday, he leaves Sunday around two. Icannot get him to come over. He used to come over and visit with me constantly, but he hates the lateral ferry,and he doesn’t wanna walk anymore. And I’ll say, “Bill, the bay is like glass.” And we would play Russian bankhours on end. Just – Never for money. Bill refuses to gamble; he’s not a gambler. And it was just pure pleasure,never talked shop, hardly at all. I miss that, I really do. I don’t make the effort to get over to him that often andvice versa. We’re only two miles apart, but – I’ll drop by once in a while in the past few years. But he doesn’tcome over to see me anymore. Though he did –

[BEGIN TAPE FOUR, SIDE TWO]

MS. BERMAN: That’s – Now, the other – You had mentioned before, we haven’t spoken about June Wayne. Exceptthat you mentioned her. So I think it would be interesting to get your take on her.

MR. COLE: I met June Wayne through Dick Florsheim, and fell madly in love with her, and vice versa. We’re bothreal print devotees. And we were kissing cousins. And then June got the money from Ford to found Tamarind.And suddenly, the prices for prints for artists that I knew that went out, for the prints they did at Tamarind, werealmost double or triple what the artist was selling for, what I was selling the artist for. I remember Jake Landau.Jake was one of the first ones out there. And he said he couldn’t even take a proof to his hotel or his room to lookat it, because everything had to be structured within the rules and confines of the workshop. And then she wasdoing those work in motion analysis that you do: Proofing was so many hours, this was so many, that was somany, and printing per print. It – And I thought that she was not producing, or getting any of the importantartists – though [Josef] Albers, I think, did work early on. But I was – then became very – Tatyana Grosman.[Phone rings; tape stops, re-starts]

MR. COLE: Part of the politic of that era, where I was a Tatyana Grosman fan, and whatever June did – And Junehad it all rigged. She had collections of her prints placed in museums. Paid for by subscribers, of which she gotabout six who gave her, I don’t know, 20,000 a year, whatever. And then they took these fantastic taxdeductions, because the prices were so much more than what they put up. And they never saw the prints. And Iguess the second year – I think Joachim said he didn’t want ‘em anymore, or something happened. He wanted topick and choose; he didn’t wanna get a block. But I think the National Gallery got ‘em, I think the Modern got‘em, I don’t remember. And then one year, she went to the Art Dealers Association of America to get anappraisal on a collection. And Albert Reese – Herman Wechsler of F.A.R. Gallery, Albert Reese of Kennedy, andSylvan Cole were the three – the panel of appraisers. And rather than each of us going separately, we all met atF.A.R. Gallery. The prints were put there, and we went and evaluated all the prints at a fraction of what Junethought they were worth. And from then on, June Wayne and Sylvan Cole were not very good friends. I told herthat I – before that, that I thought her price scale was too high, that prints were supposed to be a democraticthing, and that’s what I believed in; and I was selling prints from ten dollars up and – And she said, “Let ‘em buyreproductions if they can’t afford good prints.” I never forgave her for that. And we just had a philosophicalfalling out. I mean, I think I’ve only seen her – I haven’t seen her in twenty years. That’s about all I can say aboutJune Wayne. I – I think she had a fortune of money given her from Ford. I do think that the only real good thatcame out of it were not the prints that were produced, but the printers that were produced. Judith Slobodkin,Jack Lemon, Ken Tyler, Gemini. I mean, that was truly perhaps a contribution to the world of contemporaryprintmaking that came to pass. But it all stemmed from the philosophy of Tatyana Grosman, who – I mean, they

stemmed. Because they got the good artists.

I don’t know if I mentioned Ellsworth Kelly.

MS. BERMAN: No.

MR. COLE: In Paris, he had done two suites of prints for Galerie Maeght. One were these large color prints, wherethere’d be trapezoid with black and yellow-black, and forms like that; and the other were the flowers and theplant forms. I think – I do remember pretty clearly that I would buy a suite of each of them, which may’ve been25 or 30 prints in each, for twenty seven dollars a print. And I came back and I was selling those in the mid-sixties for seventy five to ninety dollars. And he came into the gallery one day and asked to talk to me. And I wasvery impressed meeting him. I told him I admired his work and all. And he said, “Well, Mr. Cole, I’ve been hopingthat I could get out to Gemini” – I think Ken was still there – “But they feel that my retail price structure’s too lowfor them to be able to work with me. And is it possible you could reconsider the selling price of the prints?” Ithink by then Galerie Maeght had practically sold out. Or he had gotten them all purchased by friends orwhatever. And so I still had the last 40 or 50 Kellys for sale at the price. So we discussed price. And I doremember I went up to somewhere around a hundred and seventy five to two hundred dollars. And then he didgo to Gemini and he did do some prints.

MS. BERMAN: No, he only worked with Irwin Hollander and –

MR. COLE: Well, Hollander was another Wayne person.

MS. BERMAN: Now he’s with – out in L.A. The one who used to be at Tyler, but split to – Sid.

MR. COLE: Sid Felsen, yeah.

MS. BERMAN: Right, right, right. Yeah, he did – he did a – He [Ellsworth Kelly] was honored at the Archivesbenefit last year [1999], and he [Sidney Felsen, co-founder of Gemini G.E.L.] did a little print for us. And I did anEllsworth Kelly print show last year.

MR. COLE: That’s nice.

MS. BERMAN: It was. It really looked great on the walls, because, you know –

MR. COLE: I still remember that Henry Geldzahler, when he did his show and he had Kelly right across the wholetop of the [MS. BERMAN: Right] Metropolitan Museum of Art.

MS. BERMAN: Well, Kelly – I had wanted to focus it, but he wanted – You know how small that space is. Heessentially wanted a print retrospective in that little space. And when you have twenty to do – But we started –We used the Paris posters, and we used some of those handmade pulp paper, and the plant, couple – I mean,considering that I think I had seventeen things in there, [MR. COLE: Yeah] it looked pretty good.

MR. COLE: What got us to where we are? Oh, we were talking about Wayne.

MS. BERMAN: Right, right.

MR. COLE: Yeah. So that’s all I can say about her, I – I think she also had a highly inflated opinion on her ownwork. Which I thought was fairly pedestrian, though she was a – she is a pretty good lithographer, you know, butshe never – Very symbolist type of work.

MS. BERMAN: Well, I think she’s a real force out in California on the art scene, too. You had mentioned Albers.Did you ever –

MR. COLE: I have one little aside. My – she – Michael Mazor told me the story about how he told June that I hadbought several – bought out several suites of his called Artist and Model. I think twenty five of them for probably500 dollars a suite. Something like fifteen thousand dollars. Which was a lot of money. And of course, it was verylittle for all that I got. And Shuman [ph] said, “You never should’ve sold Sylvan Cole. I mean, he’s so niggardly inwhat he pays artists,” and all that. And Michael said, “Well, he’s the only dealer that agreed to buy my work.”Yeah, the – Michael just had a major, major, major retrospective at the Boston Museum of Art. And I went up forthe opening, partly as his guest, and he told that story. [They laugh]

MS. BERMAN: Had you – You had mentioned Albers. Now, did you know him or ever work…

MR. COLE: I had met him – I met him once, and I – At – at the – It’s funny, I was handling Kelly – Now that I thinkof it, I was handling Albers when those square portfolios came out. In a way, I put myself down that I missed – ina way, I did miss. But I did have that available at the gallery, and – And I remember Albers had a suite of his just

come up for auction – or a print, I forget – and it went for an extraordinarily high price. And I remember askinghim was – had he been aware of the high prices that his things were fetching. And he seemed very pleased thatthere was that sort of recognition. He was a lovely guy; I remember that distinctly. And his wife was lovely. Hedid come to the gallery once, I think, to buy Feininger. Because I had mentioned that I had that estate.

I always used to encourage artists to buy prints. I think Richard Haas had a big article in the Times several yearsago, in which he described going to Sylvan Cole and saying it was such a nice thing to buy prints from him,because I would never ask the artist to pay for ‘em; I would take it out of the proceeds that I’d owe them as Isold their work. But – It always fascinated me. Like, perhaps one of the best collectors was Philip Pearlstein. AndPhilip ranged all over. He’d buy everything from [Frida] Kahlo to Japanese prints, and just loved them. And hehad a great eye. And I always say to artists, “You have the eye. You know. You should collect.” And it was – Andsome would, and some were just the opposite, wouldn’t buy anything but themselves, or trade with artists. ButPhilip was one. Raphael Soyer also collected.

MS. BERMAN: He had a great collection.

MR. COLE: And he had so many things that he loved and collected, he – I remember he bought Avery from meand – Karl Schrag collected. I sold – I guess the best thing I ever sold an artist, I sold to Alex Katz. Years ago, hebought a Degas monotype from me, when it wasn’t a lot of money, but he still – And I – whenever I see him,which isn’t so often, he talks about having that monotype and – And Alex and I became friends. It’s sad in a way.We – I notice in the art world, it’s very difficult to maintain long, long, long friendships as different things happen– the artist fails, or loses, or – or the museum person gets promoted way to the sky or whatever. Like, I knewJack Lane very well when he was just an assistant at Brooklyn; then he became something else. And it’s now, atmy stage of life, I – I used to know so many museum directors; now I know so few. But – I’m trying to remembermy train of thought.

MS. BERMAN: It was Alex Katz.

MR. COLE: Oh, yeah. And Alex then told me that he, when he was a youngster in New York, used to do theframes. I can’t remember the name of the framer who did the frames for AAA. And Alex knew the – So it was justa sort of small world coming back. And I bought prints from Alex directly. He sort of played an independentgame. I think I published one print, I don’t remember, or published a part of an edition. But I do remember goingdown on Broadway and – West Broadway to his fabulous studio and meeting Ada and Alex when their son wasjust a youngster.

But artists collecting has always been interesting to me, and I’ve always encouraged it.

MS. BERMAN: Now –

MR. COLE: Talk about collecting, Dick Florsheim dies, and one of his possessions was a [inaudible] of Picasso,which I was in charge of as a trustee of the Florsheim Fund, of selling; and I sold it at Christie’s probably five orsix years ago for 90 thousand dollars. And I remember discussing whether we should sell it or not. And ourfinancial advisor on the fund, a gentleman from Chicago, Philip Ba – Peter Barrett, who’s with Stein Roe, Petersaid, “We’re better off having the 90 thousand now and investing it than waiting for its potential,” since 90thousand seemed like a high price at the time.

And it’s very interesting. We sold it and got 90 thousand net; that was the deal with Christie’s. We got the 90thousand, turned it over to Peter. And I’m talking eight or nine years ago. And now there’s one coming up atChristie’s in their sale the end of this month, or early November, and it’s estimated at 90 to a hundred andtwenty thousand. So we did the right thing. But that was part of Dick’s collection. He had some very – He had alot of Mexican artists, [Jose Clemente] Orozco, [David] Siquieros. Of course, Jake Kainen falls into that group, too.

MS. BERMAN: Right, well, he collected, and Ruth – Ruth was also collecting. That’s how they met. The greatstory, they were at a lunch and he very condescendingly turned to her, ‘cause he had been talking aboutGerman Expressionist prints, and just condescendingly decided to explain who [Ernst Ludwig] Kirchner was toher. And she just snapped back that she knew very well who he was, and she happened to collect him, and –Well, that was the beginning. He went up to see her etchings.

MR. COLE: Oh, that’s a nice story.

MS. BERMAN: It is, they got together through prints. I know it very well. And neither of them – I don’t know, theydidn’t – Neither of them wanted to go to this lunch; their friends dragged them, and they were next to eachother. [MR. COLE: That’s funny] That’s how it started, through prints.

MR. COLE: That’s good.

MS. BERMAN: German prints.

MR. COLE: What’s next on your agenda?

MS. BERMAN: Well, we’ve got – Now, we haven’t discussed Una Johnson and any relationship you may have hadwith her, and her –

MS. BERMAN: Well, Una was amazing. She was the dominant print curator of contemporary prints all through the– my early stages of the late forties into the – And certainly, when I came back, in 1958 on, she was everything.She had the power, with her biennials, to almost dictate what the print world was all about. And it was the timewhen the printmaker was in a world of itself, as opposed to the painter, who were doing abstract expressionistwork. And because of that, we always presumed, that sort of imagery, they could never make prints, they wouldnever be printmakers. So the world of the painter, until Tatyana Grosman really started getting these painters tomake prints for the first time – And the world of the printmakers was theirs. And she championed – championedthree artists: Gabor Peterdi, Mauricio Lazansky, and Antonio Frasconi; those were the big three [MS. BERMAN:For Una] in the print world. And it wasn’t just for Una, it was the way life was. And getting in the Brooklyn was amajor, major accomplishment. And she was the dictator.

In 1959 – I had been director of Associated American Artists all of one year – I decided for their 25th anniversaryof AAA, we would have a print competition. And we would offer a prize – I think it was two thousand dollars,which was tremendous – for the best print submitted. And there would also be purchase awards. And my jurywas Hyatt Mayor; Bill Collins, who was then at Knoedler’s, who subsequently became director of the – What’s thenice, wonderful museum in Massachusetts that’s not in Boston, not – right in the middle?

MS. BERMAN: Worcester?

MR. COLE: No. Clark.

MS. BERMAN: Oh.

MR. COLE: Yeah, Clark Museum.

MS. BERMAN: Clark Institute.

MR. COLE: Whatever.

MS. BERMAN : Right.

MR. COLE: He became director of that, from Knoedler’s, when Knoedler’s changed hands; and Una Johnson. Unaran the show. And the first prize went to Gabor Peterdi for Triumph of Weed and – Yeah, I think it was twothousand dollars, because we got an edition of a hundred prints, I think, for that. Which, when you think of it,was twenty bucks a print. But then I picked some purchase awards. I remember Mervyn Jules, Luigi Lucioni,Werner Drewes. Can’t remember the others. There were several. But Una was very autocratic about – She knewthese artists.

I remember in a subsequent competition – I think I ran it for two or three years, I don’t know why. But AlBlaustein got first prize of two thousand dollars for a print that she had rejected from her biennial. And I was notthe jury at that time.

MS. BERMAN: Did her influence last, or did it fade? I mean, what – what was the situation?

MR. COLE: Well, it lasted until she retired. And even after that, she was always around. I remember I used to goup to Karl Schrag’s for dinner with Karl and Ilsa, and Una’d be there, occasionally Sally Avery. You know, it waswonderful to be there. They had this wonderful house on 95th Street. And it’s so amazing – I just sold a lady whowas with Citibank – Citibank, the art consultant – Oh, what’s her name? Heavyset. Anyway, it’ll come to me. Butshe came in and wanted to get a Benton for a guy who was going away. This lady knew about it, and she wantedto see the three Bentons that this woman had made notes of. Suzanne Lemakis. Do you know her?

MS. BERMAN: Only over the telephone. I had to get permission to publish something that they own, but I’venever met her.

MR. COLE: Well, anyway. So this lady – The art world’s a small thing. So she – I put three aside. She comes in,we get to talking, and she gives me her address, and I said, “Oh, Karl Schrag lived up there.” She said, “Yes,right across the street from me.” And what – and she knew them very well. And she had gone to his memorialservice. And I said I spoke, so – [Laughs] It was just a complete aside, but it’s always amazing how small the artworld is. I was in Rochester, and they have an appraisal day at the fair in the morning, on Sunday. And this guycomes in with a Martin Lewis. And it was a print I knew very well called Chance Meeting. And I turn it over; on

the back is a certificate of authenticity from Associated American Artists, signed by me. At 605 Fifth, whichmeant that it had to be prior to 1968. Is that a – [MS. BERMAN: Yeah] There’s a print – [Laughs]

MS. BERMAN: Did – did he realize that you were the same person who’d signed that?

MR. COLE: He didn’t realize the certificate was there; he had never thought much about it.

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm. That – that is – that is quite –

MR. COLE: Funny.

MS. BERMAN: Now, how about – how about Riva Castleman, where does she fit in here?

MR. COLE: Riva fits in as perhaps being a curator – being what a curator should be. After she got to the Modernfrom Chicago as Bill’s assistant, she was really sort of mouse[?], and not very much until Bill got kicked upstairs,and suddenly she became the curator. And – Her dealings with AAA were not very much. If I had somethingcontemporary or early avant garde, like the Werner Drewes – She was busy with Grosman and Wayne and all theworkshop new stuff that was coming out. And that – [Bell] that was her – [tape stops, re-starts]

MR. COLE: I used to resent Riva at first. But then I realized that Riva was doing a fabulous job by getting andjudging and evaluating the contemporary material as it was being produced. And she did – she – And in a way,that’s what a curator’s supposed to do. They’re supposed to be with their time, and – It’s my only excuse foreven talking to a Whitney curator. [Laughs] But you know, I mean, I think philosophically, that you live withinyour time. And whether you’re a dealer or a curator or what, I think collectors have a moment of time, and theycan’t go beyond it. I think art writers sort of have their moment. I – I think almost any honest person in the artbusiness or the art world has that moment of time where they’re comfortable, they’re – they’re knowledgeable,they evaluate well. And I always say it’s so easy to be avant garde; you can just embrace any new thing. But tobe honest with yourself – I know my moment of time, in a way, in American prints, stopped at 1960. I thinkbeyond that, I have regard and respect for some of the major, major printmakers that came in in the sixties andon; but it was never something that I loved. I mean, my heart wasn’t there. I mean, I – I did a lot. I know therewere – there – Bob Motherwell did a print called Red Sea, which just blew my mind. I just absolutely fell in lovewith it, I mean – And – I – Harry Abrams published it. I think I – Out of the edition of – of forty or – out of theedition of a hundred, maybe, I must’ve bought thirty or forty of them. And I sold them, and I got another order.Harry Abrams was sold out. And I remember calling Bob, and he sold me three or four of the artists proofs. Andthen I asked him where to send the check, and he said, “Oh, no, keep it; I’ll come in and buy something else.”Which never happened, but he ended up saying, “Oh, Sylvan, I don’t have time; send me the check.”

Oh, he also pissed me off, because he said, “Now you’re making a lot of money and – compared to what youpaid me.” I said, “Bob, I sold ‘em for exactly what I told you I’d sell ‘em for. And I – I said, “I am sending you myinvoices.” And I sent him copies of the three invoices of the proofs that I said. And I sent him a check. We madeup. We used to play poker. He was a good poker player. The poker games, I think I told about, in Provincetown.

MS. BERMAN: Well, you said you –

MR. COLE: It was Bob Motherwell; Dick Florsheim; Lily Harmon’s third or fourth husband, the framer; Joe Kaplan,painter; the guy who ran Here Comes Everybody Gallery up in Provincetown [Al Hansen]. A really amazing mix.A fun game, I’ll tell you. It wasn’t too expensive, but I then played occasionally at Edith Hunter’s [ph], SamHunter’s ex after they split. Bob was always there. I forget who all was in that game, but suddenly it got – Bobgot into really expensive games. He wasn’t interested in the little pickup games anymore.

MS. BERMAN: Oh. Well, what we haven’t discussed, actually, is that the – the Whitney and prints, and just interms of them not having a curator – I mean, in terms of the museum and its very checkered history as to prints.And perhaps we should discuss, you know, your deal, as the, you know, Amer –, the museum that would be mostreceptive to your material, I think we should sort of start from the beginning there.

MR. COLE: Well, there is hardly a beginning, because – Mack Doty did a show a long time ago – probably in thelate sixties, early seventies – in which it was, I think, all prints. I forget the thrust. Then somebody else curated aPrecisionist show. And everything was – Jack Bower [ph] was the first one I got involved with. It wasn’t JackBower.

MS. BERMAN: Lloyd?

MR. COLE: Well, I knew Lloyd, but Lloyd didn’t have much interest in prints. But – It was very sporadic. I don’tremember their buying very much of anything – not until Judy Goldman became their advisor. And Judy wouldrun around the day before the acquisition, or two days before the acquisition meeting, and say, “Sylvan, I wantthis, this, this and this. We’ll send a truck man to pick it up, present it,” and often sold. I know that was more

from Sylvan Cole Gallery than Associated American Artists. I remember the first big purchase they made wasSpruance. They bought some Lozowick from me. But Judy also was going into the contemporary. But she alwayshad a hand in – with the historic. Like that print, they have the painting.

MS. BERMAN: Right.

MR. COLE: And then I had the print. She bought it from somebody else.

MS. BERMAN: For the tape, we’re talking about Dempsey and Firpo, [MR. COLE: Yeah] George Bellows.

MR. COLE: Yeah. Anyway, she finally – When she resigned, then David Kiehl was the perfect person for the job,and David got it [in 1996]. And I guess over the years, I’ve sold David odds and ends of prints that he sort ofsees and decides the museum should have. It’s never been a – He, too, has been sort of all over the map in hisbuying and presenting, but he’s – He knows what he wants, and he’s got a wish list, and he gave it to me, andevery so often, I’ll find a good print on the wish list. He’s – he’s erratic, in the sense that he always has too muchon his plate. I mean, I’m sitting with three prints that he wanted, goodness knows, from West Coast WPA. I gotthis collection of twenty WPA prints from the West Coast at an auction in Butterfield. I didn’t even know what Ihad. But David came down and – And I documented it, because they all had labels on the back of who the art –David took my documentation, he added voluminous notes of full names, of years, of who they were. And thereare three prints in that group that he wants for the Whitney, and God knows when he’ll get around to evenasking for them or whatever. And I think he’s just forgotten, and I forget to tell him about it.

But I did sell the Whitney – Oh, the first attempt I made to the Whitney was when Judith was still advisor, when Iattempted to sell them the complete Stuart Davis prints, with accompanying drawings.

MS. BERMAN: That would be a natural.

MR. COLE: And – This was probably the – ‘78, ‘79, I’m guessing. Tom Armstrong was director, and a good friend.I think I wanted eighty, ninety thousand dollars. I had already arranged for them to have bought BarbershopChord, Sixth Avenue El – [Phone rings; tape stops, re-starts]

MS. BERMAN: You had arranged for them to buy –

MR. COLE: For them to buy Sixth Avenue El, Barbershop Chord, Two Figures & El, and Fiddler on the Beach. Andthis is – I think it was a ridiculous price. Fifteen thousand dollars. I mean, I’ve sold Barbershop Chord for eighty.And Mrs. Davis would give them Composition 1931, so they’d’ve had all five 1931 prints. So when I came tothem with a full collection, they already had the key prints. And – But I had all the accompanying drawings. And Isaid that I would then serve as agent for them to sell the others, at some commission rate. Patterson Sims Ithink offered me something like fifty thousand bucks for the lot, and that was insulting. So then I took TomArmstrong – I remember I rented a car. We went over the Verrazano Bridge to the Museum of Staten Island,where a Stuart Davis scholar teaches – she’s probably in her sixties, or late –

MS. BERMAN: Oh, you’re talking about Diane Kelder.

MR. COLE: Diane Kelder. Diane Kelder had organized the Stuart Davis show for out there, and took the wholething from me. And so Tom and I went out there, and he saw the whole thing on the walls and – Nothing came ofit. And this is very disjointed, because it isn’t in sequential order, but that was a – I ended up selling it to theAmon Carter for 200 thousand dollars. And they got a bargain.

MS. BERMAN: Right, then you did the –

MR. COLE: And of course, it was – The Whitney should’ve bought it. The next thing I got, which I couldn’t sell theAmon Carter, I got a complete [Charles] Burchfield together, of published prints. And that consisted of the threelithographs that Burchfield did, and the eleven or twelve wood engravings that were cut by Lankes, thewoodcuts, I think, cut by Lankes from drawing on a block by Burchfield. I could not sell that to the Amon Carter,because that was the period where the Amon Carter was broke, having just bought a [Albert] Bierstadt and[Thomas] Eakins. So – Out of the blue, walks in about – [Phone rings; tape stops, re-starts]

MR. COLE: Out of the blue, a friend brings in a completely unknown Burchfield. Print, lithograph, with CB. But inthere is the cartouche that Burchfield has. It’s a Burchfield. I brought David Kiehl; he looks at it, and he knowsit’s a Burchfield. We both can show where it relates to drawings that he did at the time. We dated it. And I took itto the Print Fair, with the idea that it would only go to a museum. And finally I decided the right museum was theWhitney. So I put the package together of the wood engravings – by then, the lithographs had been sold – andthis unknown lithograph. And it was fifty thousand dollars; I figured it was worth seventy. Sixty five, seventy.Special price to the Whitney, fifty. And they finally bought it. But it took a year of hard negotiating work. And Iknow that this has been a problem with the Whitney, from other dealers, where they’ve had major collections

purchased by the Whitney and just – just ambivalence and – and – Well, now, there’s been a change of directorfrom the guy on the West Coast to Maxwell Anderson. I have very little to do selling them. And I sell nothing tothe Met anymore. Colta [Ives], for some reason – Her money all goes into rare old master prints, or things likethat, and occasionally very contemporary. And I never seem to have anything that they need. They have awoman named Elliott Davis, that – the so-called American prints, took David’s job over. But I find the Met printarea very moribund. They – very little is happening. I don’t know if anybody sees them or sells them.

MS. BERMAN: It just had occurred to me, had you – did you ever meet Hopper or have anything to do with him?

MR. COLE: Hopper, sure.

MS. BERMAN: Well, I think we should –

MR. COLE: Hopper – I had always wanted to get some Hopper prints. And – He used to say, “Oh, I have hardlyanything left, and nothing, you know, I wanna sell.” And one day, I was at a wedding of Peter Pollock, who wasdirector of the American Federation of Arts, to Kreely and I went to the wedding at Cornelia Otis Skinner’sapartment on 65th and Lexington. And I think – I forget who all was there. I think there was Jack Levine and RuthGikow; and Edward and Jo Hopper. It was a very small wedding party; I don’t think there were twenty of –

[BEGIN TAPE FIVE, SIDE ONE]

MS. BERMAN: – interviewing Sylvan Cole on October 17th, 2000, at his gallery at 101 West 57th Street. Andtoday we’ll be starting out where we left off last week, which is you were – You were beginning to tell me howyou met Edward Hopper.

MR. COLE: Peter Pollock was a good friend of mine. I knew him shortly after he came East from the Art Institute. Imet him through Dick Florsheim. And Peter eventually became director of the American Federation of Arts forone year. Peter got married to Kreely, whose maiden name I don’t remember, whom he met in Texas on an AFAjunket that he headed. And the wedding party was at the home of Cornelia Otis Skinner, which was on 66th andLex, or 65th and Lex, in those wonderful duplex apartments heading toward Third, on the south side of thestreet. I know Gordon Grant lived in one of those at one time. I don’t remember all who were at the weddingreception, but I don’t think it was much more than twenty to thirty people at most. But the Hoppers were there,both Josie and Edward. I know Ruth Gikow and Jack Levine were there, and an assorted group that I shouldremember, but I don’t. And they were all pretty prominent, either as artists or in the art world.

I remember sitting with Josie in the duplex living room, with the portrait of Otis Skinner by Sargent over thefireplace, this immense expanse. There was the fireplace, and then there was the big portrait, and there was justair all around; it was a huge room. So I attacked Josie again, and said how much I’m still wanting to get someetchings from her husband. And I’d been wanting to do this for years. I’d spoken to him a few times by phone;he grunted and no, he didn’t have anything for sale. Anyway, I do recall her saying, “You like his work?” And I – Iremember her sort of being surprised, and she said, “Don’t you think it’s cold? Very cold? As cold as he looks?”Or something to that effect, and – And I think Gail Levin mentioned some of that in her book, though I don’t – Inever read Gail’s book, but I – I do know that Josie also was an artist, and she was possibly interested in myseeing some of her work. But when I told her I specialize only in prints, that dropped the whole thing.

There was no sense in trying to talk to Hopper. I mean, all he did was grunt. And very stoop-shouldered, and –Very big man. And very powerful in – in his demeanor. But that’s my only memory.

MS. BERMAN: Well, which –

MR. COLE: An aside, of course, is that Peter was sort of Cornelia’s stud for years and years and years, and thatwas a relationship that started in Chicago and went on for a long period of time.

MS. BERMAN: But she – but she gave the wedding there, just – even though he was marrying someone else?

MR. COLE: Oh, sure, they were – They – they always stayed friends. And I just fell in love with her. What a big,wonderful, ballsy woman. Yeah, I do recall seeing her a few times afterwards and – In fact, I can’t recall theoccasion, but I do remember somewhere along the line, she either was a guest of mine at some party orsomething, and I do remember introducing my parents to her, and my dad was very impressed.

MS. BERMAN: Now, when you said – When – when Jo said, “Well, don’t you think his work is cold,” what did you –what – Can you remember –

MR. COLE: I don’t recall answering it. I just thought – I said, “I think his work is wonderful.” You know – I was sortof caught off guard. [Laughs]

MS. BERMAN: Mm-hm. Well, right, exactly, ‘cause it was such a telling remark. But it’s – but a truthful one.

MR. COLE: Yeah.

MS. BERMAN: So did you ever get any Hopper etchings?

MR. COLE: Never. No, I remember I got several in the late sixties from the Whitney Museum, that sold me theirduplicates or – I worked on a commission basis, I don’t remember, at Associated American Artists. And in thosedays, I think the prices were somewhere in the three thousand dollar area; whereas some of the ones I sold arenow selling at sixty to ninety thousand.

MS. BERMAN: Now, the other thing – You had said you wanted to mention something. You had said you wantedto talk about Karl Fortess.

MR. COLE: Oh, yes. Karl Fortess had the reputation of being Yas Kuniyoshi’s little puppy dog. And he absolutelyrevered Yas, and they were really very close friends. After Yas died, I got to know Karl, and he would comearound the gallery. He, I think, was the world’s least salable artist. He just painted dead trees, made prints ofabandoned farms and dead trees and that sort of thing, and – One day we decided that I would publish a print ofhis and he was going to Europe. So he sent me some proofs that he had done in Europe, and I picked one out. Itwas a color lithograph. And I told him which one I would buy a hundred of and how much I would pay him. Andhe had a hundred printed, and either shipped it or brought ‘em with him when he came back. Was a relativelysmall print, I think. Somewhere like eight by ten or nine by twelve. I think the retail price on it was somethinglike twenty five or thirty dollars. And I asked him what to do with the proofs. And he said, “Well, you go aheadand sell the proofs for whatever you think is right.” I said, “Well, what price do you think I should put on ‘em?”He said, “That – You’re the expert. He said, “But I’d rather not sell them at a high price than not sell them at alow price.”

He finally persuaded me to have a one person show. And it was a bomb. And I was so embarrassed. I think theprices ran from fifteen to maybe a hundred dollars, at most. And based on how many proofs there were, andthings like that. And I think there must’ve been sixty pieces in the show. And I did a catalogue. And I was soembarrassed that we had only sold two or three that I purchased ten, at 50% off the selling price, so that I couldsend Karl a check of some amount. And I remember his writing me saying that he got the check, and thankingme, and I had put him in a whole new tax bracket. [MS. BERMAN Laughs]

He was an absolutely charming guy, and he went on to decide to tape the artists, which I gather the Archiveshave these tapes and – He was very serious about it. And I always felt that from his description of the kind oftaping he was doing – An artist interviewing another artist had the perception, had sort of the level ground thateach were on. And I’m sure that these tapes probably go into greater depths to most artists than a critic orhistorian might get out of another artist. Is that so?

MS. BERMAN: Yes and no. The questions are good, but most of the time it’s only one tape. And two, he’sintrusive, in that it is a conversation rather than an interview, so he interrupts before the person is doneoccasionally, ‘cause he does get interested in what somebody has to say, so he contributes. And there’s nothingwrong with that, but we can’t do that in an interview. You – In – in this sort of – In an oral history, you must learnto shut up and wait until the person is finished, or you will lose a lot. And it’s better to have silences than to cutthe person off. Or even so-called rambling is better. But that’s – But he wasn’t a professional interviewer, but –but I hear – I have heard a few of these, and he gets great stuff, but in the middle he cuts them off, and hedoesn’t even know he’s doing it. But it’s still a –

MR. COLE: Well, I’ve never heard any of the tapes.

MS. BERMAN: Right.

MS. BERMAN: Well, if you –

MR. COLE: Yeah, I should hear some. Bringing up Karl, who was Woodstock, reminds me of another anecdote,which had to do with Julio de Diego. Julio was also Woodstock. And Julio was probably the homeliest, mostattractive man you can imagine. There was a charisma about him. And he always had some very nubile,attractive woman around. Usually in her twenties, maybe as old as in her thirties, but I think mostly in hertwenties. Usually tall, statuesque, blonde, very large bosomed and large featured – Julio was one of the firstartists, I guess, back in the early sixties, that used to come and drop into the gallery. And we’d chat. And oneday he showed me a small screen print – again, about eight by ten, nine by twelve – of sort of a voluptuous,curvilinear couple, as best I recall it. And it was sort of a black and white print. And he said to me – I said, “Whatdo you want me to do?” He said, “I’d like you to buy the edition.” I said, “What did you plan to do?” And he said,“A hundred.” I said, “Well, I’ll pay you five dollars apiece, five hundred dollars, and I’ll probably retail at aroundtwenty five dollars, and give my special customers the price of twenty dollars.” So he agreed to that. And hewent off, and about two or three weeks later he called me. He said he had the edition, could I come in? I said,“Of course,” and he came in, he brought the edition. And he said, “You gotta pay me eight dollars apiece; I

added two colors.” So sure enough, he had added a green and a red or something, and I said, “Ok, I’ll pay youeight dollars.” But it was so funny to see him, “Yo, you gotta pay me eight dollars; I added two colors.”

Julio, I think I mentioned, was also part of the Woodstock poker game, and the few times I played, Julio – It wasusually a nickel and dime game, and if Julio put in a nickel, you knew damn well he either had four of a kind or astraight flush, [MS. BERMAN Laughs] because he would not gamble unless he was a sure winner.

MS. BERMAN: That’s very interesting, what you said about his female companionship. You know, at one point, hewas married to Gypsy Rose Lee.

MR. COLE: Sure, I remember.

MS. BERMAN: He was also a surrealist, too. He was out in Chicago –

MR. COLE: Oh, yeah.

MS. BERMAN: Yeah.

MR. COLE: Well, he was another part of Peter Pollock’s good friends. Yeah. And that’s – Through him, I met Kiriki,the daughter, and – And I did meet Gypsy Rose a few times. In fact, to this day – Lillyan, my second wife, whopassed away in 1987, always wore big hats. And Doyle [ph] had a sale of Gypsy Rose Lee’s possessions after herdeath [Lee’s possessions were auctioned off by Sotheby Parke-Berret in Los Angeles, March 10, 1971]. And therewas a shoebox full of hatpins, which I bought for, I think, 200 dollars. And mostly glass and – big things. And Istill remember I – After I bought it, I spoke with one of the girls in the gallery, Susan Teller, who’s now a dealer inher own right. And she said, “Well, now you’ve gotta get some hatpin holders.” Well, I didn’t even know what ahatpin holder looked like. And that started a collection of about twenty-some-odd hatpin holders, which I’veacquired over a long period of years. The key to a hatpin holder is that it looks like a salt or sugar shaker. It’sabout five inches high, and it’s got a lotta holes on the top. But it doesn’t have a hole at the bottom. If it has ahole in the bottom, it’s probably a salt shaker or a sugar shaker. If it doesn’t have a hole at the bottom, it’s ahatpin holder. And interestingly enough, just the past three years, they’ve been making hatpin holders to looklike antiques, either in China or Japan, and putting it on the market.

MS. BERMAN: Now, Sylvan, there’s something that I realized, I don’t think we have this absolutely sort ofstraight, was when you left Associated American Artists, I don’t quite understand why you decided to get out ofart and go into another field.

MR. COLE: Oh, way back in the –

MS. BERMAN: Yeah right, in the fifties.

MR. COLE: Oh, that’s a part of my life that I never talk about. But I did leave Associated American Artists. Istarted there in ‘46, and I left about ‘51. Or ‘52. Let’s see, I got married in ‘43. I guess it was – I’d been marriedabout seven or eight years, and I fell in love with somebody that was working at Associated American Artists. Ihad split with my wife and three kids. It was a bad break. And I was living on – a hotel, I can’t remember thename of it – Latham, something like that – on 27th Street between Fifth and Madison. And I needed a job thatwould pay more money. So through my father, who was in the men’s business, menswear business, I got a jobwith a company called Berk-Ray B-E-R-K, hyphen, R-A-Y – which manufactured men’s outerwear. Jackets andthings like that. And they had a factory in Troy, New York and in Cordele, Georgia – C-O-R-D-E-L-E. And I got a jobthere, and handled relations with the salespeople, and then I got put into writing the orders for the factories,because we had set up a very, very early IBM computer system, which is so primitive. I mean, this hugecomputer. And we would feed into it all the orders, with the sizes that were wanted, and we would accumulate acertain number of a certain style, and then I would tell the factory to produce it And I had to keep these twofactories running. It was a major, major job. It meant coordinating piece goods with the needs of the factory andall the rest of it, buttons, zippers, whatever. And it was not a comfortable period for me, because the families,owners would compete with each other. And I remember they criticized that this kid, Sylvan Cole, who knewnothing about anything, was really running these factories. That’s all sort of irrelevant. But I did this.

And then Reeves Lewenthal, who had sold Associated American Artists to Albert Landry, became president ofRusskraft Greeting Cards through a funny twist of events that I can’t recall right now. And he decided that therewere lots of prints left from the old AAA, and that maybe a gallery devoted to prints run by Sylvan Cole mightmake sense, and he – So I left Russkraft. I know at that point, I was offered by Reeves probably twenty fivethousand a year or something like that, which was so much better than what I was getting.

MS. BERMAN: You left – You didn’t leave Russkraft –

MR. COLE: I mean I left –

MS. BERMAN: Berk-Ray.

MR. COLE: Berk-Ray. And it was 1958. I was forty years old. And it was a really life begins at forty. I rented spaceat 605 Fifth Avenue, which is right between 48th and 49th, took a floor-through. It was nine thousand dollars ayear rent. I got all the inventory. And then I started calling up the artists that I knew and were friendly with.Soyer and Lucioni, Hirsch and a bunch of others. I think I – I covered that aspect of it in a previous tape. Butthose five years were just a gap in my life. It’s – I don’t even refer to it in any of my bios; I act as if I was startedat AAA in 1946 and became president in 1958.

MS. BERMAN: But now, were you at – But you were hired by Reeves to, in other words, he was – What I don’tunderstand is even though he’d sold AAA, he was still controlling it?

MR. COLE: Oh, yes, ‘cause – That was a very awkward period. I started and what – ‘Course, I knew AlbertLandrey. And what I – So there were two Associated American Artists. One was paintings and the other – And Iran Associated American Artists Print.

MS. BERMAN: Ah.

MR. COLE: And I think that went on for about a year, when Albert just decided to change to the Albert LandryGallery, so there was only one Associated American Artists. But for about at year, it was not – it was prettysticky, a little confusing. Never bothered me, but I know it bothered Albert. And so I ended up with the name,with evidently, Reeves had the right to do. I mean, he had sold Albert the paintings part; Albert did not want theprints. And that’s what he got from Reeves, for a very modest amount of money. And Reeves had hoped thatAlbert would hold this stable of artists; but Albert got rid of most of them and brought in the own artists the hethought were more important. So that’s what went on that – I guess ‘58, ‘59 at most.

MS. BERMAN: Well, what kinds of changes do you feel, you know, I guess the most important changes that onceyou were, you know, on your own and running it, that you were making there?

MR. COLE: Well, I had – I had sort of a carte blanche situation. I must say I made a profit from the first year I tookover. We never, never lost money. It grew quickly. But I would say Reeves’ involvement with it didn’t go on formore than two or three years, when he was replaced as president of Russkraft by other people. AssociatedAmerican Artists was a wholly owned subsidiary. The Berkman family were the principal owners of Russkraft andAssociated American Artists. I do remember how it happened. Evidently, the man who ran Russkraft haddesigners. And they would design Christmas cards and greeting cards. And then they would be produced inAmerica, but I think there was also a production operation in Canada, in which the then president of Russkraftowned the Canadian operation. Canada got all the artwork at no cost, and the profits went to him. And through astockholder’s injunction, which went into court, the president was kicked out. And the Berkman family bought upshares, and Reeves became president. And that’s when he, shortly thereafter, came to me to take over amoribund AAA that had existed in a warehouse on 42nd Street, right off Eighth Avenue, toward Ninth, where themailroom had gone and – mailing list. And 17,000 five dollars prints that hadn’t been sold. Which fortunately,there were some Grant Woods in there, there were some Bentons, there were [Ivan] Albrights, Kuniyoshi. Imean, strange as it may seem, among the most important prints AAA had ever produced, there were stillremainders of five, ten, twelve, whatever. And that was the material, plus putting out immediately a catalogue.And by ‘59, or ‘60, I made my first trips to Europe. All with Reeves’ encouragement, with a budget of, like,10,000 dollars. And I would then come back with all sorts of Renoir restrikes, Cassatt restrikes, anything I couldget in multiples, and – But the gallery prospered right away. I mean, evidently, there was a need for what hadbeen lost for those few years, five years. And I hit it right. I mean, the sixties were a boom period for the printworld, and then it boomed on through the seventies and eighties.

MS. BERMAN: Well what made you decide to sort of, you know, to become the Sylvan Cole Gallery?

MR. COLE: In 1979, there was no longer a Russkraft. It became another company, merged in with all of theBerkman holdings, which included radio and television stations. And Associated American Artists was part of thisconglomerate. And in 1979, Marshall Berkman, who was then the son of Lou Berkman, a Harvard BusinessSchool graduate, became my boss. And he took over the greeting card business. And the radio and televisionwas run, I think, out of Pittsburgh. He was up outside of Boston. And he sold the company. He sold it to Ziff-Davis. At that juncture, Marshall’s father Lou – Those two were on one side. Marshall – Lou’s brother Jack and hisson Miles got into a family feud. Jack, I gather, was in Italy when Marshall sold it. He was on the board ofdirectors. “How come he could sell it without my knowing?” And he rushed back and he – “Booah, you can’t sellthis without my approval.” Well, this went on; it was an embarrassment. [Phone rings; tape stops, re-starts]

MR. COLE: So that – it was a big embarrassment. I mean, it was very awkward. I mean, Wall Street was sort ofthinking: What’s the matter with this? Anyway, to make a long story short, I think Ziff agreed to pay another fewdollars per share. And he made the whole thing private. In other words, whoever owned stock got money. Itwasn’t a stock exchange or anything. And I remember meeting with Bill Ziff, who turned out to be a pretty

dynamic sort of a guy, and I explained what I did, and said I would like to continue; that I was a professional inthe business; and it was a business that you had to develop, depended on trust. I mean, it was unbelievablewhat I could have done if I were a dishonest person. I mean, take an inventory; nobody knew a Chagall from a –from a piece of something that was worth nothing. So he said, “Don’t worry, Mr. Cole, you’ll stay on.” But in thefinal settlement, Associated American Artists, the stock that Marshall had bought in telecommunications, and – Idon’t know if it’s all the radio stations or one or two, became a company called Associated CommunicationsCorporation. Its value, I remember distinctly, was six million dollars. And AAA was two million of the six. Iremember I had to meet with all sorts of Wall Street types to – who evaluated what Associated American Artistswas worth. I would show inventory, I would explain, I would do this and that. So Associated Communications, so– that was given to Jack Berkman’s son. That was the bone. And Miles Berkman became my boss. MarshallBerkman went on into a totally different business, went back to Pittsburgh. And Marshall eventually, he got killedin that plane crash, the U.S. Air crash right outside of Pittsburgh.

Anyway, this is 1979. Jack, Miles meet with me. I remember they met up in my apartment. We discussedeverything, my role and how I’d go on, and everything was hunky-dory. I explained the whole operation from Ato Z. And off they went. And suddenly – It went pretty well, ‘79, ‘80. What am I saying? When did I leave? ‘83. Itwas five years. ‘79 and ‘80. By ‘81, suddenly I was involved with three or four meetings a year, where I wouldmeet with Jack, Miles, Jack’s wife – by then he had remarried Lillian Berkman – four of us, at Canada House,where they had an office for Jack; and the other office was in Pittsburgh. And they were awkward meetings, as ifI were challenged; was I doing this right? Why did I buy this? Should – and this didn’t sell. I – You know, it wasvery uncomfortable meetings, I – It sort of got worse. And I think I refused to go to one once. Because I hadasked for a raise and Miles wouldn’t give it to me. And so then I just took it. So that caused a little thing. And oneday I said to Miles, I said, “You don’t like what I’m doing, fire me.” Well, they really couldn’t fire me. I mean,there was no way. Nobody – I knew everything. I knew where things were. Nobody else knew. Things that I hadbought and squirreled away in file drawers. And values of things, what things were worth. I mean, I set theprices, I did the buying, I did all this. Whether it was a Max Beckmann or a Munch or a Lautrec or whatever.

So our lease was up. A ten year lease. Let’s see, ‘68 to ‘78, and then it was a five year lease to ‘83, at 663 FifthAvenue. And the lease was up in ‘83. So ‘82 was sort of looking around, where we could go to. I think we knewwe could not stay where we were, because they had other plans for the space. And I found a wonderful spaceright opposite the New York Public Library on Fifth Avenue. That was pooh-poohed. It was a dangerous area. Thesteps of the public library, you know; bums were hanging out and stuff and – And I kept trying to sell it becauseit was large – equal large space, seven or eight thousand square feet; comparable or lower rent; and right nearGrand Central and Penn Station. And we did a huge, huge business with all the suburbs, the people coming in.And it was convenient to Manhattan, too, New Yorkers.

Anyway, things just got sticky. And I’m not sure what happened, except I do know I had a five year contract –only contract, employment contract, I’d ever had in my life – which went from ‘78 to ‘83. And in 1982, aroundSeptember or October, I asked for a renewal of the contract. I did not want to go through the move to a newlocation and not have a contract. It would just – put out all that work and all that effort and everything. And theyrefused to give me a new contract. So I said, “In that case, I resign.” And there was dead silence. And I have afeeling that Miles was in seventh heaven. He finally got this one bone in his side removed. Or thorn in his side.And I would say it took ‘em one day to suddenly have four people show up from the Pittsburgh office to takeinventory. Make sure that Sylvan Cole wasn’t gonna go running out with –

So they show up, and I call Miles, I say, “What the hell is this all about?” He said, “Oh, we gotta take inventory.You’re leaving, and –” And I said, “Alright, but how are they gonna know how to take inventory? Who’s gonnashow ‘em how?” I said, “I don’t have time.” It was October or November. I said, “I’m still here. I’m not resigninguntil the end of the year,” that was my arrangement, “And we’ve got a Christmas season going.” I said, “I haveno time with them, and neither does my staff.” So I gave them a desk and I opened one of my drawers of 200,300 unidentified old masters. And I handed it down and I said, “Go ahead and take inventory.” Walked away.Well, they lasted less than a day. And I said, “We can take inventory between Christmas and New Year.” Andthat’s what was done. Came out clean as a whistle. All our inventories were absolutely correct. I mean, we never– I – I – I always could account for everything. We were on a computer, we had a printout. I could always accountfor everything we had. Occasionally, there’d be a print that we just misled – mislaid or something and couldn’tfind. All my editions that I bought, if I bought a hundred prints, I put in 95. And cost ‘em the same as a hundred.If I bought 200 prints, I put in a hundred and eighty five or something. So I always had a cushion, because withfull editions, there could be damage, there could be things. We always came out having more inventory than thebooks had, because if you added in the cushions. And all I know –

But the behavior on the part of the Berkmans was unbelievable, I – I could not take prints that I owned out of thegallery. I could take it after everything was settled. After – I think the deadline was January first; I think I stayedon ‘til the 10th or 15th, because there was cleanup to do. And that was the end, the last check I got. My bonusfor 1982 was cut by ten or fifteen thousand dollars – very meaningful money to me at that point – based on thefact that orders had been written but hadn’t been paid for. They charged me 12,500 or 15,000 for the fee paid

to the headhunters that were to replace – find somebody to replace me. And they paid so much in ‘82 and somuch in ‘83, and they put that as an expense in ‘82 against – So I even paid for –

MS. BERMAN: How so?

MR. COLE: They just put it on the books, and so that – it decreased the profit. And my bonus was based on pre-tax profit, where I got 10% of the pre-tax profit. So if it was 15,000, that was fifteen hundred dollars out of mypocket that I paid for a head hunter. They took off in sales 50, 60 thousand dollars that hadn’t been paid. Imean, I – I had sold a Lautrec to Pace in December for ten or twelve thousand; of course it wasn’t paid yet. Butthey said, “Well, it wasn’t a sale.” They did everything to screw me. It was really unbelievable!

MS. BERMAN: Did you contest any of this?

MR. COLE: Of course I did. But I couldn’t, you know, I couldn’t fight them; I was single, I had modest savings,modest bank. You know, I really had – couldn’t go against them on a legal premise. In fact – And then of course –The thing that really hit ‘em, I guess, was that I stayed the member of the Art Dealers Association of America.Associated American Artists was out.

MS. BERMAN: Good. [Laughs]

MR. COLE: And that bothered them really very much, the thought of – But they went on, they were very happy.They got space over at 20 West 57th, and they – they made a fiasco; they had a Columbia architect do a rotunda–

[BEGIN TAPE FIVE, SIDE TWO]

MR. COLE: And there was, you know, real animosity between – Even my old friends, the staff there, you know,they – they weren’t supposed to talk to me. I was not supposed to be let in. I could see the exhibitions; theycouldn’t stop me from that, it was a public gallery. But if I went to go to the back room to say hello to Knute inshipping or Mary Jackson, I mean, people I’d hired, [inaudible]. And slowly but surely, all my group – EstelleYanco, who had been with the gallery for 25 years, and even before that, was asked to resign. Then HildaCastleman [ph] left, and – One by one, they all just left, except for Knute and Mary Jackson, the two blackpeople; Knute in shipping, and Mary Jackson had been in mailroom, but now she was sort of a computer andorder handler. And of course, when they closed, I think they gave them – They gave everybody six months pay,regardless of whether they’d been there one year or 25 years. And these two had been there all their lives. And Ieven called Lillian Berkman said, “I think this is outrageous. You should – they should get double.” “Well, it’s allarranged,” you know. And that was that.

MS. BERMAN: Had you somehow had a rapprochement with Lillian Berkman, that you could call her?

MR. COLE: We’d see each other once or twice a year at different events; there were art shows or something likethat. And she was always very cordial. I still have some – I guess I haven’t spoken to her in about two or threemonths, but I – They called me to see if there was any value to the blocks or plates that they had tons of, fromold AAA days. And I went down to the warehouse and looked through and said, “No. There – there’s no sense tokeeping those. I mean, might as well just trash ‘em.” The only thing is, I thought there may have been someFeininger blocks which I had. And those would’ve had some historical importance or value. And I didn’t findthose, but I think I had given most of those – and I only had twelve or thirteen – I think I’d given most of those tomuseums before I left.

MS. BERMAN: Now, was Lillian Berkman knowledgeable about art? Or did she become so?

MR. COLE: Not really. I think she was on the board of the Brooklyn Museum. You know, one of these wealthypatrons. Lillian Berkman had perhaps a career that’s worth looking into. She was a poor girl from the Bronx, sentto CCNY [City College of New York], and met this Jewish Dutch refugee, who was also going to CCNY. I guess thiswas during World War II or – Yeah. They fell in love, married. War ends. He inherits this huge collection ofpaintings. [Anthony] Van Dyck, [Aelbert] Cuyp, a supposed Rembrandt, couple of [Giovanni] Tiepolos, God knowswhat all. Dutch collection. And – He’s a whiz. The war’s over. He goes into farm machinery and equipment, fromscratch, with a little money from the family. It survived the war. And builds this up, gets bought out by Deere.And I remember she told me that they were in their middle twenties, and they were millionaires. Whatever thisguy touched, evidently, turned to gold. He went into something else and prospered. They were building thismansion out in Long Island. Just two – two kids. I guess this is – now they’re in their forties. Fifties? I don’tremember. But two things happened. The house burns down, he dies. No connection one to the other. So here’sthis widow with lots of money. And she buys this townhouse on 64th Street opposite Wildenstein and sets it up.There’s a [Antonio] Canova model in the lobby and paintings. I remember there’s Canalettos in the dining room.And lots of Dutch stuff – some of which may not be correct. I have a feeling that she’s looked into it and – ‘CauseI don’t think she’s being chased a lot by institutions or museums. But that’s how she got on the Brooklyn board.

She marries Jack Berkman, who’s then a widower. And she’s then part of that Berkman gang. Jack just diedabout three or four years ago, and she still has huge stock holdings. But evidently, a lot of what Jack owned wentto his son. And the last I spoke with her, the relationship is still very –

[END OF INTERVIEW.]

Last updated...October 3, 2005