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PENSACOLA INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT
SELECTION COMMITTEE MEETING
REQUEST FOR PROPOSAL 13-008
Held at the Pensacola International Airport, 2430
Airport Boulevard, 2nd Floor Conference Room,
Pensacola, Florida, on the 25th day of July,
2013, at 9 a.m.
Hitchcock and AssociatesRegistered Professional Reporters
111 South Baylen Street
P. O. Box 13253
Pensacola, Florida 32591-3253(850) 434-6447 / 434-6773
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A P P E A R A N C E S
Greg Donovan, DirectorPensacola International Airport
Wes Payne, ManagerCordova Mall
Perry Hunter, ManagerMcGuires Irish Pub
Bill Dagnall, Business Account OfficerNavy Federal Credit Union
Brad Roberts, Power Quality Systems Director
S&C Electric Company
Michael Laven, Property and Budget ManagerPensacola International Airport
Richard Chinsammy, ConsultantConcessions Solution Group
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1 MR. DONOVAN: Good morning, everybody.
2 Were going to go ahead and get started. Im Greg
3 Donovan. Im the airport director here. I want
4 to thank you all for being here. Again, were
5 working on the temperature, and theres
6 refreshments on the side over there.
7 I want to first start off by extending
8 my gratitude to the selection committee. The
9 importance of having a strong food and beverage
10 product here at Pensacola International Airport is
11 a very important decision, and I have asked
12 community leaders and experts in areas of retail
13 and finance and traveling to give me some
14 perspective in the selection process; and in doing
15 so, it meant a commitment of time to read and
16 study and to lend your very valuable opinions, and
17 I want to thank you all for that and especially
18 for taking the time today to work together as a
19 committee and then potentially if there is more
20 committee work in the selection process.
21 I do want to introduce to the group
22 here who the selection committee is, starting with
23 Mr. Wes Payne. Wes is the manager for Cordova
24 Mall and Simon Properties and has got firsthand
25 knowledge of retail and such a successful
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1 operation of the full Cordova area. Really, the
2 anchor of retail is your mall and activity that
3 millions of people that come through there. Wes,
4 thank you for being here today. Thank you for
5 your leadership in our community of retail, and
6 you certainly know firsthand the products and
7 items that are out there. We thank you for being
8 here.
9 Mr. Perry Hunter with McGuires.
10 McGuires---we were talking about offline here---is
11 certainly a restaurant---a destination restaurant
12 when people come to the community, every time I
13 have family members or out-of-town visitors.
14 McGuires is an anchor to the community. Perry,
15 thank you so much for being here.
16 Bill Dagnall with Navy Federal Credit
17 Union. Needless to say, Navy Federal Credit Union
18 is becoming one of our most advanced employers,
19 our largest employers, a corporate presence here
20 that is so welcome and your leadership within the
21 finance community and with Navy Federal Credit
22 Union, all the exciting expansion thats taking
23 place there. Were so very grateful, Bill, for
24 you to be here today to lend your perspectives as
25 well.
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1 Then last is Brad Roberts. Brad has
2 been a traveler through Pensacola International
3 Airport before we were called Pensacola
4 International Airport. I think---
5 MR. ROBERTS: I arrived at midnight
6 last night.
7 MR. DONOVAN: Well, even as late---
8 MR. ROBERTS: On the (unintelligible)
9 late Dallas flight.
10 MR. DONOVAN: On a different time zone.
11 I love it. I love it. Now, Brad has traveled
12 through the airport and has been a community---
13 involved in the community for a long period of
14 time and is a seasoned traveler, has seen products
15 that work throughout the country and throughout
16 the world. Brad, thank you for your time and a
17 quick turnaround. Im sorry the flight was late
18 last night.
19 MR. ROBERTS: Its always late.
20 MR. DONOVAN: So the five of us are the
21 committee, and administratively, Michael Laven---Im
22 going to turn it over to Michael to kind of walk
23 us through some basics of it and then Richard, our
24 consultant, is going to go into some details of
25 where we go, and then well start the process of
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1 selection.
2 MR. LAVEN: Thank you very much. I,
3 too, would like to welcome everyone and thank you
4 for serving on this committee. Its a very, very
5 important point at Pensacola International
6 Airport, and we do appreciate your service.
7 As Greg said, my name is Michael Laven.
8 Im the airport administration and contracts
9 manager. I will serve as your facilitator and
10 help you on procedural items regarding sitting on
11 a committee which is an official committee of the
12 City of Pensacola.
13 Mr. Richard Chinsammy is from
14 Concessions Consultant Group---Concessions Solution
15 Group. Im sorry. He is our consultant. Hes an
16 expert in the industry; and, hopefully, hell be
17 able to answer your questions as far as industry
18 demands and needs, airport food and beverage
19 concessions as far as that goes.
20 Now, as I stated, this is an official
21 committee of the City of Pensacola. Its the
22 Airport Food and Beverage Concession, Request For
23 Proposal 13-008. Today is July 25, 2013. This is
24 a public meeting, which means the meeting has been
25 noticed to the media. It has been placed on the
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1 citys website and also on the airports internal
2 digital signage system. Meetings are open to the
3 public, but there is no forum for public comment
4 at this time.
5 Meetings are recorded for the record
6 which is why I have a tape recorder here, and this
7 recording will become part of the public record.
8 All notes and grading sheets will
9 become part of the record also, and there can be
10 no discussion among committee members outside of
11 these meetings.
12 Greg already acknowledged the members
13 present, and Greg is the (unintelligible) member,
14 so I do thank you for your time as well.
15 To give you a little bit of background
16 on the airport, the airport is an enterprise fund
17 department of the City of Pensacola. That means
18 we are a self-sustaining entity, and we rely on
19 rents and user fees to operate. Concessions such
20 as this one provide non-airline revenue to pay for
21 the operation of the airport.
22 The current food and beverage
23 concession started on April 1, 2013, and expires
24 March 31---2003---Im sorry---April 1, 2003, and
25 expires March 31, 2014. At the time it consisted
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1 of one approximately 8,000-square-foot pre-
2 security location and one approximately 1,500
3 post-security location.
4 The new concession which will begin
5 April 1, 2014, is a ten-year agreement with one
6 two-year renewal at the citys option. It will
7 consist of one 2,500-square-foot pre-security
8 location and two post-security locations,
9 approximately 3,100 square feet and 880 square
10 feet.
11 The purpose of this meeting today is to
12 tabulate the raw evaluation scores and to choose
13 your ranking of the first, second, and third
14 ranked firms. There can be no tie scores, and you
15 must take by the end of this meeting a first
16 choice and a second choice and a third choice. We
17 ask you to keep your scores objective with no
18 opinions.
19 And now Ill ask Richard to tell you
20 how we got to this point and the work that he has
21 done so far and to tell you how we came up with
22 this request for proposal.
23 MR. RICHARD: Good morning. Thank you
24 very much, Michael.
25 Its amazing. Its been quite a road
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1 to get to this point, and I really appreciate you
2 all taking the time. I can attest to the fact
3 that I understand you all have full-time jobs, and
4 seeing these big binders come your way is probably
5 a big surprise for you guys; but it is a very
6 important process for the city. Were really
7 proud that we got some really great responses,
8 very thorough responses.
9 I want to take you through kind of a
10 history, how we started this process and, you
11 know, up to this point and a little bit of the
12 expectations today. I was asked to come---I started
13 in this industry about 20 years ago with HMSHost.
14 HMSHost---some of you have spent a lot of money in
15 their airport facilities around the country, the
16 largest airport concession operator in the world.
17 I was a concept person on their team, and I moved
18 through the industry with various companies. I
19 started my own consulting company four years ago.
20 I was contracted by the city to assess
21 the existing program, make recommendations for the
22 future program, and help craft the RFP process,
23 craft and manage with Michael the RFP process. It
24 consisted of two phases. Phase one, we did a
25 comprehensive assessment of the existing program,
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1 peer airport comparison, industry trends, customer
2 insights. We looked at category analysis to
3 understand what consumers were looking for in the
4 marketplace, specifically enplaning passengers,
5 passengers arriving, as you all know, and
6 enplaning passengers are the ones getting on
7 planes who, you know, visit our facilities or
8 visit restaurants and retail facilities.
9 So when that analysis was completed, a
10 presentation was made to the city and the previous
11 airport director---Greg wasnt here at that time---
12 Melinda Crawford, and the decision was made to
13 then move to phase two, which was the crafting of
14 the request for proposal document that was then
15 published, and we invited concession operators to
16 propose on the project.
17 We deliberately ensured through the
18 phase two process that this was a very
19 transparent, clean, simple-to-understand response.
20 There was nothing that is complicated. The forms
21 were very simple. We did not want to make the
22 operators who were looking at this program have to
23 jump through a lot of hoops.
24 As a matter of fact, we even gave an
25 extension of the response time to ensure that
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1 those who were interested in our program would
2 have enough time and---sufficient time to put
3 together the appropriate response to us. We
4 believe we received great responses, as I said.
5 So thats kind of an overview of where
6 we started, how we got here. We published the RFP
7 and received responses, and you all were selected
8 as Selection Committee and seated to
9 independently. Interestingly enough, none of us
10 knew each other. Were all saying hi this morning
11 when you walked in the room. So even Michael
12 didnt know some of (unintelligible).
13 So the objective really is to ensure
14 that we are choosing what is the right program for
15 Pensacola moving forward. This is the most
16 important that you understand. This is a program
17 that will be in place for the next ten, maybe 12
18 years. There is a two-year option on the lease at
19 the citys---the city can exercise if it so chooses;
20 but thats the most important part of this. You
21 are going to choose today (unintelligible) of this
22 process, the future (unintelligible) the remainder
23 of this process, the future food and beverage
24 program for Pensacola International Airport. That
25 is the most important part of this.
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1 So we have sent you some instructions,
2 just a general overview of the scoring systems,
3 some vision items that we had crafted in phase one
4 and then phase two of the RFP. Do you have any
5 questions now of any of those instructions, any of
6 that information at all? No?
7 MR. LAVEN: Okay, a couple of other
8 housekeeping items that I just thought of, there
9 is a sign-in sheet going around to the members of
10 the audience. Please just write your name down so
11 we know who was in attendance.
12 Restrooms are located---there are a
13 couple of restrooms just to the left right outside
14 this door. If anybody on the committee needs a
15 break, just let me know, and we can have a break.
16 We ask that you do not discuss this outside of
17 these committee meetings.
18 Also, if you parked in our parking
19 facility, please bring up your ticket, and Ill be
20 happy to validate that for you.
21 The next step is going to be to
22 actually go into each of the individual proposals.
23 The way Im going to do this is well go in the
24 order in which the proposals were listed on the
25 City of Pensacola tabulation sheets. Well start
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1 with Creative Food Group. Next will be MSE
2 Branded Foods, and finally will be OHM Concession
3 Group.
4 Now, one thing I would like to mention
5 is there was a fourth proposal submitted, Wendco
6 Corporation. They---this proposal was deemed to be
7 nonresponsive because they only proposed one
8 location. So we did provide a letter to them
9 stating that they were nonresponsive because of
10 that single proposal. Also, there was no written
11 narrative on design and capital improvements, and
12 there was no rendering of the proposed units. The
13 proposer was given five working days to protest,
14 and no protest was received.
15 So what I would like to do, if
16 everybody can pull out their Creative Food Group
17 proposal and the scoring sheet. Normally I would
18 just go by alphabetical order, but I would like to
19 ask the airport director if he would care to go
20 first.
21 MR. DONOVAN: Sure. Sure, Ill get
22 this started. I can tell you from an industry
23 standpoint and as the director of this airport
24 that the importance of non-airline sources of
25 revenue, meaning a concession such as this, is
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1 very, very important.
2 So in reviewing these proposals, I was
3 very impressed. All three were very good
4 proposals. It gave me optimism towards looking
5 towards the future of us growing our non-airline
6 sources of revenue. Its a self-perpetuating
7 process. If we can provide a low cost base for
8 the airlines to do business here, more airlines
9 come, and more air service is developed. That
10 brings more passengers that fly more products and
11 use more services; and, in turn, it self-
12 perpetuates, and your self-sustaining enterprise
13 operation gets stronger and stronger.
14 So in reading through these, I was
15 impressed with all of the proposals. Starting off
16 with Creative Foods---are we going to talk about
17 Creative Foods and go all the way around and---
18 MR. LAVEN: Right.
19 MR. DONOVAN: ---then well come back?
20 MR. LAVEN: Yeah. What Id like to do
21 is each member (unintelligible) alphabetical order
22 to let us know---let the committee know what you
23 liked about the proposal, what you did not like
24 about the proposal, just in general terms. You
25 can be specific if you want; but after everyone
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1 has had a chance to speak, then I want to go
2 through each of the six areas where you have the
3 scoring.
4 MR. DONOVAN: Well, Ill cut to the
5 chase, and Ill give you my opinion; and Ill just
6 start giving you some numbers if its okay---
7 MR. LAVEN: Sure.
8 MR. DONOVAN: ---and well go around and
9 go through the process.
10 So with Creative Foods, first of all, I
11 was very impressed with an ability to promote and
12 brand a local product. When I travel, when I see
13 other activities, you know, you see some brands
14 you recognize, and then theres the local brand
15 thats, wow, this is a known for this area. I
16 thought Creative Foods did a very good job with
17 the brand of Fish House, Pensacola Bay Brewery, or
18 Pensacola Bay Brew House, Bagelheads, and
19 Varonas. All of those are representative of
20 brands in the area right now.
21 The Fish House has been very
22 successful. The Pensacola Bay Brewery has been
23 very successful. Bagelheads has been very
24 successful. Varonas here at the airport has been
25 known for some time.
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1 I like the fact that the Creative Food
2 Group has had experience at several other
3 airports, BWI, Newark, Lexington, and Tallahassee,
4 and in reading through their proposal, I thought
5 they had a very strong concept and business plan.
6 So in terms of points, if youre ready to copy
7 points, Ill just start giving you what I scored.
8 Creative Food actually scored in
9 concept-wise the highest in my opinion at 30
10 points.
11 In the category of design intention and
12 capital investment, I understood theres about a
13 $1.7 million investment on their part in capital
14 improvements. I gave them a score of 14.
15 In terms of a business plan, theyre
16 projecting a sales of $3 million. I gave them a
17 score of 13.
18 Operations and management plan, its
19 clear that they have got a strong management group
20 thats suggested in this, and I gave them a score
21 of 13.
22 In terms of construction and transition
23 plan, there were some notable activities of other
24 locations, and I gave them a score of 8.
25 Their minimum annual guarantee of
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1 $300,000, I gave them a score of 7.
2 And if my math is correct, of a total
3 of 100 points, I gave them a total of 85.
4 MR. LAVEN: I will check your math, no
5 offense.
6 MR. DONOVAN: Okay. It was late at
7 night when I was going through this at the final
8 end.
9 So thats my perspective on Creative
10 Foods.
11 MR. LAVEN: Okay, how many did you get
12 for the total?
13 MR. DONOVAN: 85.
14 MR. LAVEN: And I confirm that.
15 MR. DONOVAN: Do you need me to read
16 off the scores one more time to make sure youre
17 right?
18 MR. LAVEN: No. That is fine because
19 what were going to do, youll have---everybody will
20 have an opportunity to change your scores before
21 you come to a final decision. This is just
22 preliminary discussions here to get your views on
23 how you do each of these proposals.
24 MR. DONOVAN: Okay.
25 MR. LAVEN: So the next step, I know it
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1 should have been Bill in alphabetical order. Do
2 you want to defer? You would be the next one.
3 Are you ready?
4 MR. DONOVAN: Bill or Brad?
5 MR. ROBERTS: Well, Ive reached my
6 conclusion as to the (unintelligible), but Im
7 still working on breaking down the detail of each.
8 MR. LAVEN: Okay, did you want to pass?
9 MR. ROBERTS: Yes.
10 MR. LAVEN: Okay, Im going by
11 alphabetical order by last name. So the next one
12 would be Perry Hunter.
13 MR. HUNTER: All right. On the
14 proposed concept, I like the local flavor. I
15 really, really like the local flavor, and the four
16 representatives of our local flavor, I mean, these
17 are powerhouses here in Pensacola. You know,
18 youve got your Fish House. Its got a very good
19 reputation of Pensacola. Youve got a local
20 owner. Youve got a very happy clientele that
21 goes in and out. I think the pairing with the
22 Pensacola Bay Brew House, phenomenal strategy
23 right there with some craft brews, utilizing their
24 menu like that. I think youve got a lot of---it
25 uses a lot of space for the guest as far as
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1 seating capacity.
2 Bagelheads in a business, very
3 community involved, again a local owner, Rob,
4 good people; a very strong venue, I thought, as
5 far as stacking up against some of the other
6 competition.
7 Varonas---I mean, Robert has been a
8 long-time airport vendor here, and hes been in
9 the airport vending business for 40-plus years, a
10 nice variety of a menu right there, again local
11 flavor; and hes got a good pulse on airport and
12 airport vending.
13 Pensacola Bay Brew House, very good
14 craft ales, (unintelligible) as well, and these
15 guys are stand-up. Theyre very much involved in
16 the Pensacola local lore. I mean, weve been
17 around for a long time (unintelligible) marketing,
18 and itll be offering Fish House foods. Thats a
19 great pairing in my opinion.
20 For the proposed concept, I gave them
21 the max of 30. I think all the way around its
22 just a fantastic idea.
23 Design intention was very strong as
24 well. I gave them an 18.
25 I thought they had a very solid
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1 business plan, so I maxed them at 15.
2 Operations and management, something
3 Im very familiar with, and all four of these guys
4 know what theyre doing. Theyre here. I gave
5 them 15 points.
6 I like the construction and transition
7 schedule. I thought it was very well laid out. I
8 gave it a 10.
9 For the MAG I gave it 7.
10 I think my total points now are at 95.
11 MR. LAVEN: 95, okay.
12 Next we will go to Wes.
13 MR. PAYNE: Being new in the
14 marketplace for about a year now, Ive been
15 minimally exposed to these localized concepts.
16 Im very much a big fan of the local flavor and
17 peoples, you know, first impressions when they
18 deplane as far as---as well as when they enplane,
19 you know, theyre going to get the final taste of
20 the town before leaving.
21 I do like---I have experienced
22 Bagelheads. I have not had the opportunity to
23 experience Varonas yet. Ive heard great things,
24 Pensacola Bay Brewery as well as the Fish House.
25 For the proposed concept overall, I
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1 think for the local flavor I gave a 28 on that out
2 of 30 points.
3 For the design intention and capital
4 investment, looking at that side, I gave it a 15.
5 Looking over at the business plan, a
6 very impressive business plan. I enjoyed reading
7 through it and kind of---just kind of getting a feel
8 for the direction they were going, for a history
9 of where theyve been. I think it---I gave 10 on
10 that.
11 Operations and management, good style
12 there, I gave a 12.
13 As well as the construction and
14 transition plan was in check, I gave a 10 out of
15 10 for that.
16 I also gave 7 for the minimum annual
17 guarantee for that.
18 I believe that puts me right around 85,
19 I believe---85 points overall.
20 MR. LAVEN: Let me just verify. Now,
21 it is 28, 15, 10, 12, 10, and 7? Im getting 82.
22 MR. PAYNE: 82, okay.
23 MR. LAVEN: Yeah, Im getting 82.
24 MR. PAYNE: 82, okay.
25 MR. LAVEN: So that score is 82.
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1 Next well go to Brad, please.
2 MR. ROBERTS: Okay, on the concept I
3 know everybody feels strongly about having all the
4 local presence and the things that are,
5 quote/unquote, local. Im not so sure that is
6 that important at the airport. I think tourists
7 are looking more for brands (unintelligible), and
8 thats what theyre going to gravitate to because,
9 hopefully, theyve already enjoyed all the local
10 stuff as a part of their visit here. So on the
11 concept I gave them 26 on that.
12 On the location, its an 18.
13 On projection, 13.
14 Then the next one (unintelligible), a
15 13.
16 The MAG, 8---excuse me---the construction
17 and transition schedule, 8; and 7 on the MAG.
18 That should be 85.
19 MR. LAVEN: Okay, I do have 85. And I
20 do apologize. I did go out of order because I
21 should have started with Bill. So well go with
22 you next if we could, please.
23 MR. DAGNALL: Very good. I, too, in
24 traveling around to many airports in the past and
25 sometimes at international airports, they have it
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1 staged to where thats kind of the last thing that
2 you remember about the city.
3 I do like the local flair in this
4 presentation. Im very familiar with both
5 Pensacola Bay Brewery and Fish House. I do agree,
6 though, that, you know, that is---those are concepts
7 that are---thats a local flair here that when
8 people are actually traveling to Pensacola,
9 theyre going to get a taste of that.
10 My concern would be a little bit of the
11 price points; and if you have people that are
12 coming in and out, or even just from a military
13 standpoint, which we do have a lot of military
14 that are coming in here, and sometimes, you know,
15 they have a long layover, or they might have a
16 long wait, thats a concern about the price
17 points. But, nevertheless, I thought that the
18 proposal was very well executed, well put
19 together. My scoring on Creative Food Group for
20 the proposed concepts scored a 28.
21 Design intention was very well executed
22 and the capital investments. I scored that an 18.
23 The business plan was, of course, very
24 well put together, and I scored a 13 on that.
25 Operations and management plan, I
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1 scored a 14.
2 Construction and transition plan, very,
3 very impressive, and again, spelling out the local
4 flair and design of all four of the proposed
5 restaurants, I scored a 9.
6 The MAG, I scored an 8.
7 The total possible points for Creative
8 Food Group was a total of 90 if my addition is
9 correct.
10 MR. LAVEN: I got 92. Okay, 90 for
11 that one. Okay.
12 Was there any further discussion at
13 this point? Did anyone want to make changes? Did
14 anyone want to clarify anything or issue any
15 (unintelligible)? You will have an opportunity to
16 come back.
17 UNIDENTIFIED: Im fine with moving on.
18 MR. LAVEN: Okay, so the next one will
19 be MSE Branded. This time I will be calling
20 (unintelligible). Well start with Greg.
21 MR. DONOVAN: Okay, MSE Branded Foods,
22 the proposed concept is Subway, PJs Coffee, a
23 Nacho Hippo, and an Emerald Coast Cafe. Again, a
24 very well put-together proposal. The brands and
25 concepts were very intriguing to me. I thought
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1 they did a very good job in detailing the
2 direction where it would go and so forth. Their
3 presence as well---and I look at it from do they
4 have experience at other airports throughout the
5 country and how successful those airport
6 concessions are---being at Akron, Daytona Beach.
7 Myrtle Beach is a very comparable size airport to
8 Pensacola International. Gulfport-Biloxi and
9 Greenville-Spartanburg are all very good
10 locations.
11 So scoring-wise under proposed concepts
12 I gave a 24.
13 For the design intention and capital
14 investment, I gave the highest of the three, a
15 score---their score would be 16. With a $1.9
16 million investment in the facility, thats a very
17 generous and well thought-out, I think, investment
18 into---capital investment into the building that
19 will ultimately revert---the improvement will revert
20 back to us, but it is the terminal building that
21 we own.
22 In terms of a business plan, again, I
23 think its a very strong business plan with a
24 sales of $2.8 million---projected sales of $2.8
25 million. I gave a score of 11.
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1 A 13 on the operations and management
2 plan.
3 A 7 on the construction and transition
4 plan.
5 With a MAG of $300,000, a score of 7.
6 The grand total is 78.
7 MR. LAVEN: I have 78.
8 Okay, getting back into my order now---I
9 do apologize for the last one---we will go to Bill
10 this time, in alphabetical order.
11 MR. DAGNALL: Again, a very well put-
12 together proposal by MSE. I think definitely the
13 property that stands out here with familiarity in
14 trying to get some sort of local flair and local
15 brand into the airport was the Subway. Everyone
16 is very familiar with Subway. A great price point
17 that would be, definitely attractive to our
18 traveling military which we are---which a lot of
19 military travel here on a regular basis.
20 From a proposed concept standpoint, I
21 scored this at a 27.
22 The design intention, I scored a 17.
23 For the business plan I scored that a
24 13.
25 Operations and management, they did a
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1 great job in identifying the staffing and also a
2 customer service plan. I scored that a 13.
3 Construction and transition, I scored
4 an 8.
5 The MAG, I scored a 7.
6 If my math is correct, that is a total
7 of 85 for MSE Branded.
8 MR. LAVEN: Okay, 85, yes.
9 Now we will go to Perry.
10 MR. HUNTER: All right. For MSE
11 Branded Foods I do like the Subway. I think its
12 a good sub shop. I feel, though, that if were
13 going to have a sub shop out here, it might want
14 to be a little bit---not more upscale, but maybe a
15 better quality in ingredients.
16 PJs looks like a good coffee shop.
17 Nacho Hippo, a good restaurant, but I
18 dont know if its the right fit for a seafood
19 market, and I come back to where I am and where
20 were from, and Bill noted in a comment about this
21 is sometimes peoples last impression of the area
22 is what they had at the airport.
23 Emerald Coast Cafe, very impressive,
24 good fresh food.
25 I gave proposed concept---a max of 30, I
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1 gave it 20 points.
2 I thought the design intention was
3 quite good, especially the Nacho Hippo. Its very
4 bright colors and things that will catch your
5 attention. I gave it a 15.
6 A good solid business plan, I gave a
7 12.
8 Operations and management, I also gave
9 that a 12.
10 I thought they had a very good
11 construction and transition plan. I maxed that
12 out at 10.
13 For the MAG, I gave it a 7.
14 I think that comes to a 76.
15 MR. LAVEN: Okay, 76.
16 Okay, next, Wes, please.
17 MR. PAYNE: I enjoyed reading through
18 this. Again, I have to agree with the strength of
19 it. Were starting to get into the national
20 branding of familiarity which I think lends to
21 strength down the road being a ten-year deal and
22 having a constant that people are familiar with.
23 I like the Nacho Hippo concept. PJs
24 Coffee, Im not familiar with that, as well as the
25 Emerald Coast concept, Im not familiar with; but
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1 I am familiar with this operator. Being from
2 Greenville, South Carolina, Im familiar with him
3 in GSP, so I know that they have a very good
4 concept there as far as their operation goes, and
5 theyve been there for a while.
6 In rankings I did 28 for the proposed
7 concept.
8 For the design intention and capital
9 investment, I gave a 17.
10 For the overall business plan, I gave
11 a 14.
12 Operations and management plan, I gave
13 a 13.
14 Construction and transition plan, I
15 gave a 9 out of 10.
16 The MAG was a 7.
17 I believe that came up to 78---
18 MR. LAVEN: I got 88.
19 MR. PAYNE: 88. Im sorry.
20 MR. LAVEN: Okay, 88.
21 And Brad.
22 MR. ROBERTS: Okay, that was a very
23 well done proposal. Those guys are very
24 professional (unintelligible) in their proposal.
25 I have a real problem with the Nacho Hippo. I
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1 just think its just totally foreign to this
2 destination, and I dont quite get it.
3 The Subway is one of the few branded
4 ones thats there. So that does add to it, but
5 overall on the proposed concept I gave them a 25.
6 On design intention, an 18.
7 The business plan, a 12.
8 Operations and management, a 12.
9 Construction and transition, an 8.
10 On the MAG, a 7.
11 That should be 82.
12 MR. LAVEN: 82.
13 Okay, so at this point does anybody
14 want to discuss or change anything, or shall we
15 move on to the next?
16 Okay, we will move on. The third one
17 is OHM Concession Group, and again, we will start
18 with Greg, please.
19 MR. DONOVAN: OHM, a very professional
20 presentation, a great amount of detail. Products-
21 wise, Einsteins Bagels, Chick-fil-A, Corona Beach
22 House, Surf City Squeeze, a wide variety of
23 products, a lot of very recognizable brands,
24 national brands.
25 I was very impressed with their
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1 approach, particularly for the---in our industry we
2 see more opportunities of very larger---larger-sized
3 airports, and this really reflects some brands
4 that you see in large airports, and I was
5 impressed with their proposal for coming to our
6 airport and helping us grow our operations here by
7 these types of brands.
8 So in proposed concept I gave a score
9 of 28.
10 I think that they certainly have the
11 background and experience in being in St. Louis,
12 BWI, recently L.A. and Orlando International, that
13 their design and capital investments are well
14 thought out. At $1.8 million---again, its a very
15 generous amount to put---invest into our facilities
16 here. So I gave a score of 15.
17 On the business plan they projected a
18 sales of $3.9 million a year, and I gave a score
19 of 15. Its a very strong business plan.
20 For the operations and management plan,
21 I gave a score of 14. Again, I think theyve got
22 a very well thought-out approach.
23 Construction and transition, a score
24 of 9.
25 A MAG of $397,460, thats the strongest
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1 MAG of the group. I gave it a score of 10.
2 So the total score is, from me, is 91.
3 MR. LAVEN: I get 91 also. Thank you.
4 Next well go to Bill, please.
5 MR. DAGNALL: I have a strong agreement
6 with Greg here as far as the proposed concepts. I
7 think the Chick-fil-A from a recognized brand is
8 probably the strongest brand that is identified in
9 all three of the proposals. Their food quality,
10 their service is unparalleled. I think that
11 anybody coming through an airport would---for a
12 quick meal, would definitely gravitate to
13 Chick-fil-A.
14 I also like the concept of OHM kind of
15 diversifying over the many avenues of what they
16 can offer with the Corona Beach, Einsteins, and
17 the Surf City Squeeze to where you have a little
18 bit of a higher end going to the Corona Beach.
19 You can still go to Einsteins and enjoy a very
20 affordable meal; and then for something quick and
21 nutritious, you have that Surf City Squeeze.
22 So from a proposed concept, I gave them
23 a perfect score of 30.
24 The design intention, the allocation of
25 the F&B space and also the investment of the $1.8
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1 million I felt was very well thought out. I
2 thought that incorporating two---some of the---
3 noticing some of the passengers that are coming
4 through here, I noticed in their proposal with---
5 they did have a military person with a duffel bag
6 traveling. So I thought that was very well
7 thought out. I gave the design intention a 19.
8 I thought their business plan was very,
9 very strong in their---in really pinpointing their
10 performance, and its evident from the experience
11 that theyve had in the past with going into other
12 airports. I gave them also a 14.
13 Their operations and management, with
14 their experience, of course, in some of the larger
15 airports in the United States, they definitely do
16 an exceptional job, and in managing their brands
17 and their properties, I gave them a 14.
18 Construction and transition, I gave
19 them a 9.
20 And as Greg alluded to, an extremely
21 strong first year and so their MAG, I gave them
22 a 9.
23 The total should come up to 95.
24 MR. LAVEN: Yes, 95. Thank you very
25 much.
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1 Next well hear from Perry, please.
2 MR. HUNTER: Okay, for OHM Concessions
3 Group, just from a restaurant standpoint, weve
4 got---one of their anchors of Chick-fil-A---which is
5 closed on Sunday?
6 MR. LAVEN: Right.
7 MR. HUNTER: And so thats wasted space
8 one day out of each week, 52 days [sic] a year;
9 and so those people that would look forward to
10 Chick-fil-A, coming in on a Sunday, they would not
11 be able to have the Chick-fil-A, which leaves Surf
12 City---a good product, but its a (unintelligible)
13 company.
14 Then youre left with Einstein Bagels---
15 Einstein Bros. Bagels, a good company, good
16 product.
17 Corona Beach House, I think its a
18 little overpriced for what you get with---its a
19 pricey thing.
20 So really, what pulled my score down
21 from a maximum of 30 points is going to be the
22 proposal of Chick-fil-A, which knocked it down,
23 the proposed concept, to a 15. I just feel that
24 with one store being shut down one day out of the
25 week, thats a lot of income that could be
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1 (unintelligible).
2 Design intention, well laid out, well
3 thought out, I gave it a 15.
4 The business plan is very solid. This
5 company knows what theyre doing. I gave it a 15.
6 Again, operations and management, a
7 very successful company throughout a lot of
8 airports, major airports. I gave them---out of a
9 maximum of 15, I gave 15.
10 Construction and transition, I thought---
11 maybe Im a chart guy; maybe Im a pie guy---I like
12 to see a little bit more (unintelligible) dates
13 rather than concepts in writing, even those---so I
14 gave it a 6.
15 I did think it had the strongest MAG
16 out of all the business plans, so I gave that an
17 8.
18 I think my math comes up to 74.
19 MR. LAVEN: Could I ask you repeat your
20 management score---operations and management?
21 MR. HUNTER: Operation and management
22 is 15.
23 MR. LAVEN: 15, 15, 15, 6, and 8---74,
24 correct, 74 total.
25 Okay, next we move on to Wes, please.
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1 MR. PAYNE: For OHM it felt like this
2 was the more---it was a very good proposal. It was
3 very organized, very well laid out. It read like
4 a book to a certain degree, and in reading through
5 it, the branding did just kind of---I felt a comfort
6 level with the Corona, being the beachy aspect,
7 localized flavor.
8 Chick-fil-A, understandably being
9 closed on Sunday---theyre closed on Sunday
10 everywhere, but I know that was (unintelligible)
11 here, but still, the other six days of the week
12 that theyre open, I feel, could be a definite
13 benefit.
14 Einsteins and Surf City, Im not
15 familiar with those two brands, but from what we
16 saw in the proposal, it looks like they could be
17 very viable concepts as well.
18 So in doing that, OHM was my favorite
19 of all, and in the ranking I gave a 28 out of 30
20 on the concepts.
21 The design and investment, I gave 20.
22 For the business plan, 15 out of 15.
23 For operations and management, I gave
24 a 13.
25 For construction and transition, I
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1 scored an 8.
2 For the MAG also---I scored a 10 on the
3 MAG.
4 I think thats a 94.
5 MR. LAVEN: Okay, thank you, sir.
6 Next will be Brad, please.
7 MR. ROBERTS: I have a question on the
8 airport.
9 MR. DONOVAN: Yes.
10 MR. ROBERTS: Do you have a breakdown
11 of passengers by day, what percentage?
12 MR. DONOVAN: Well, Sunday is---I dont
13 have those memorized. I will say Sunday is a
14 heavier day than---well, throughout the whole year,
15 quite honestly, in which you have travelers coming
16 through, trying to get back home or arriving in
17 some cases. So Tuesdays and Wednesdays are
18 typically your less active. Theyre mostly
19 business travelers.
20 MR. ROBERTS: Monday (unintelligible).
21 MR. DONOVAN: Sundays and Mondays are
22 very busy, and Thursdays and Fridays are very
23 busy.
24 MR. ROBERTS: Because this is focused
25 on the outbound passengers (unintelligible). I
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1 mean, it bothers me that Chick-fil-A is closed on
2 Sunday, but I just think itll make so much money,
3 its just (unintelligible).
4 MR. LAVEN: We can actually clarify
5 that---in the proposal---I think if youve read the
6 section on the brand page, the proposer did
7 articulate their understanding. If you want me to
8 read it to you, I can read it to you.
9 UNIDENTIFIED: Please.
10 MR. LAVEN: In our assessment of the
11 services relevant to the passengers at Pensacola
12 International Airport, we have determined that
13 there is no other quick-serve restaurant in
14 comparison to Chick-fil-A. We respect the
15 Chick-fil-As philosophy and brand requirements
16 that its closed on Sundays. However, we also
17 note that by proposing the Surf City Squeeze,
18 Einstein Bros. and Corona Beach House, Pensacola,
19 for the adjacent post-security location,
20 passengers will be ensured continuous service when
21 Chick-fil-A is closed.
22 So thats---I think they addressed it in
23 the response 1, 2.
24 Chick-fil-A is closed across the
25 country---in Atlanta-Hartsfield Chick-fil-A is
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1 closed on Sunday. So I think we dont want that
2 to be an issue when it very well (unintelligible).
3 MR. ROBERTS: Well, yeah, I was just
4 curious, but I just think itll add so much to the
5 revenue the six days.
6 MR. LAVEN: Yeah.
7 MR. ROBERTS: As far as the proposed
8 concept, I gave it a 28 because I think its the
9 best balanced as to what the average tourist would
10 think about or gravitate to when theyre leaving.
11 Design intention, I gave it an 18.
12 Business plan, I gave it a 14.
13 Operation and management, a 14.
14 Construction and transition, an 8.
15 MAG, an 8.
16 Thats a total of 90.
17 MR. LAVEN: Okay, a total of 90. Okay,
18 thank you.
19 At this point what Id like to do is go
20 to each member and identify your number-one
21 choice, your number-two choice, and number-three
22 choice based on these raw scores and give you an
23 opportunity to change your scores, modify them in
24 any way, so we will determine who your number-one
25 pick is, who your number-two pick is, and who your
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1 number-three pick is.
2 So, Greg, according to your scores---oh,
3 was there anything else?
4 UNIDENTIFIED: Yeah, I want to ask you
5 a question. Do you tally the scores
6 (unintelligible)?
7 MR. LAVEN: Im going to individually,
8 yeah. I could do it individually. So we do have
9 the raw scores at this point. So what well be
10 doing is comparing, okay, your number-one choices,
11 your number-two, and your number-three, just to
12 make sure that your raw scores are correct
13 (unintelligible). Then we can total up the raw
14 scores to determine the overall number-one score.
15 So, Greg, your number-one choice would
16 be OHM.
17 MR. DONOVAN: OHM. Yeah, my number-one
18 pick is OHM, followed by Creative Food, followed
19 by MSE Branded Foods; and I stand by my scoring
20 and do not have any changes.
21 MR. LAVEN: Okay, very good. Thank you.
22 Now, Bill, your number-one choice is
23 OHM. Your number-two is Creative, and your
24 number-three is MSE.
25 MR. DAGNALL: That is correct, and Im
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1 firm on my selection as far as those scores add
2 up, and I stand by that.
3 MR. LAVEN: Okay, thank you very much.
4 UNIDENTIFIED: You said OHM, Creative,
5 MSE?
6 MR. LAVEN: Yeah.
7 UNIDENTIFIED: Okay.
8 MR. LAVEN: The third one, Perry, your
9 number-one is Creative Food Group. Your second is
10 MSE, and your third is OHM.
11 MR. HUNTER: Correct. I stand by it.
12 MR. LAVEN: Okay, very good.
13 Now, Brad, we have your number-one as
14 OHM, number-two as MSE, and number-three as
15 Creative.
16 MR. ROBERTS: Uh-huh. Are you sure
17 about that?
18 MR. PAYNE: (Unintelligible)
19 MR. LAVEN: Oh, yes. Im sorry. Yeah,
20 (unintelligible).
21 MR. PAYNE: Yes. I had OHM, MSE, and
22 Creative as one, two, and three.
23 MR. LAVEN: Okay, (unintelligible).
24 Now, Brad---sorry about that---your
25 number-one is OHM. Number-two is Creative, and
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1 number-three is MSE.
2 MR. ROBERTS: Right.
3 MR. DONOVAN: Do you want a couple of
4 minutes to tally?
5 MR. LAVEN: Yes. Yeah, why dont we
6 take a break for a few minutes, and then Ill
7 calculate, and we can reconvene in about
8 (unintelligible).
9 MR. DONOVAN: I was going to say five.
10 Fantastic.
11 MR. LAVEN: Okay, ten minutes.
12 (There was a ten-minute break off the
13 record.)
14 MR. LAVEN: Thank you for sticking with
15 us and not leaving during the break. I do
16 appreciate that.
17 What were going to do at this point,
18 Ive tallied all the scores, and we have our raw
19 scores based on your raw scores, and also we have
20 the number that received the most number of
21 number-one votes, number-two votes, number-three
22 votes.
23 From a gross score standpoint, OHM
24 received the highest with a total of 444 points.
25 Next will be Creative Food Group with a total of
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1 437 points. MSE Branded came in third with a
2 total of 409 points.
3 Based on the number of ranking votes,
4 OHM received more number-one votes, followed by
5 Creative with one number-one vote.
6 Number-two votes, Creative received a
7 total of three number-two votes. MSE received a
8 total of two number-two votes.
9 Number-three rankings, OHM received one
10 number-three. Creative tied, also one number-
11 three vote, and MSE received three number-three
12 votes.
13 So based on these raw scores, you have
14 two options. You as a committee can decide to
15 make a recommendation to the mayor based on the
16 highest gross scoring at this point, or you can
17 decide as a committee to request presentations
18 from the proposers, any of the proposers, all of
19 the proposers. Its up to you.
20 Now, presentations will only clarify
21 what is in the proposals. A presentation cannot
22 add to the proposal. It cant take away from the
23 proposal. They cant revise it in any way. So
24 the presentations will only give you a sense of
25 what is already in the proposal.
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1 So its really up to you as a committee
2 if you would like to move ahead and make a
3 recommendation to the mayor for his approval at
4 this point, or if you would like to ask for
5 presentations. So I open up the floor to
6 discussion.
7 MR. DONOVAN: Well, let me chime in for
8 my perspective that, first of all, the goal in all
9 of this is to make the best possible decision.
10 Thats what it comes down to, and anything that we
11 can aid the mayor in making the best decision
12 possible by putting resources and perspective and
13 work towards that is very, very good.
14 In hearing---if I understood correctly,
15 from a score-wise---and thats the value of an
16 independent committee such as this, is that, you
17 know, we have five different perspectives that
18 collectively you talk about a numerical scoring
19 system, 444 was the collective points, 437, and
20 then 409, right? Theres not a lot of separation
21 between the top two, and I always like to hear,
22 you know, directly from the company.
23 While we have very good proposals, the
24 opportunity to ask questions of the company that
25 were going to be working with for ten years,
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1 possibly 12 years, seems good to me as another
2 expanded opportunity for some depth.
3 So my recommendation to the committee
4 would be for us to ask the top two that are only
5 separated by seven points---thats not a lot in a
6 spectrum of how many points are being thrown
7 around here---to ask these two companies to come in
8 and give brief presentations.
9 Perhaps---and I dont know if the mayor
10 would want to sit in on that and see it himself or
11 as a committee it would give us the opportunity to
12 dial in a selection---a final selection, and I would
13 suggest that to the committee.
14 MR. RICHARD: Just so you understand
15 from a timing perspective, because I know you guys
16 are all, quote, busy, and scheduling is very
17 difficult, traditionally, what we would do is no
18 more than a 45-minute presentation, a straight
19 oral presentation, (unintelligible) presentation,
20 if you will, for half an hour, no more, from the
21 proposer, and then maybe half an hour, 20 minutes
22 for questions from the selection committee; and
23 thats it.
24 Okay, so that we made our timing---
25 Michael and I have looked at the scheduling over
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1 the next couple of months, so we have---and when I
2 say made the timing, timing for (unintelligible)
3 contract execution, development of facilities. We
4 looked at---Michael, what dates?
5 MR. LAVEN: August 20 and 21. Its a
6 Tuesday and Wednesday.
7 MR. RICHARD: So we would only need one
8 of those days, folks.
9 UNIDENTIFIED: What were those days?
10 MR. RICHARD: August 20 and 21. I
11 think I did mention those in the instructions to
12 each member on the committee, so you can decide---so
13 again, while the mayor is welcome to sit in, he
14 would not be a voting member.
15 MR. LAVEN: Correct.
16 MR. RICHARD: It would still be you as
17 a committee after the presentation. Wed still
18 have to sit down---this meeting would not be open to
19 the public. It would be a closed-door meeting,
20 and you would---based on those two presentations
21 alone, you would have to pick your number-one
22 choice to recommend to the mayor; and then the
23 mayor, in turn, will ask for approval from the
24 city council. Once the city council approves,
25 then we can execute a contract, and they go ahead
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1 with their plans.
2 MR. ROBERTS: (Unintelligible) the
3 22nd?
4 MR. LAVEN: The 20th is
5 (unintelligible) Tuesday and Wednesday.
6 MR. RICHARD: You can pick one of those
7 days.
8 MR. DONOVAN: How does that sound to
9 the committee about having a presentation?
10 MR. ROBERTS: I think its a good idea.
11 UNIDENTIFIED: Yeah.
12 UNIDENTIFIED: Yes.
13 MR. ROBERTS: Since theyre so close.
14 UNIDENTIFIED: There could be something
15 in there that pushes us a different way. So
16 thats---yeah, I like that.
17 UNIDENTIFIED: Okay. Yeah, even with
18 no addition to the---I mean, all three presentations
19 were excellent, but when you see the companies in
20 front of you, there might be something pointed out
21 that I know we all try to catch as much as
22 possible in these presentations, but I think its
23 an excellent point.
24 MR. LAVEN: Okay, so the recommendation
25 of the committee is to invite the top two
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1 proposers to give oral presentations either August
2 20 or 21---and Ill have to get back with the
3 committee on the exact date and time; and if
4 youre in agreement, please raise your hand.
5 UNIDENTIFIED: I agree.
6 MR. LAVEN: Okay, so we have five
7 (unintelligible).
8 UNIDENTIFIED: I think since we have
9 the (unintelligible) pretty much know their
10 schedules.
11 MR. RICHARD: Okay, so you guys want to
12 pick one of those dates and vote on it as well?
13 MR. LAVEN: We can lock that down, if
14 you know---
15 MR. ROBERTS: The 20th is best for me.
16 MR. RICHARD: The 20th---well, I was
17 thinking about you. Youre traveling every day of
18 the week.
19 MR. ROBERTS: Well, I try not to. As
20 of right now---
21 UNIDENTIFIED: Thats fine with me.
22 UNIDENTIFIED: Thats fine.
23 MR. LAVEN: Okay, very good. So we
24 will invite OHM and Creative Food Group to give
25 presentations---oral presentations on August 20.
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1 Ill send a confirmation out to the committee
2 members; and if theres anything else, please ask
3 us. Feel free to contact me directly. Again, I
4 reiterate, dont contact anyone else on this
5 committee outside of this meeting. Dont contact
6 anyone on the city council. If anyone contacts
7 you or you have anything you wish to disclose,
8 please make sure that you do disclose it either at
9 this meeting or when we meet again
10 (unintelligible) all incriminations---
11 UNIDENTIFIED: What time on the 20th?
12 MR. LAVEN: The 20th---afternoons
13 better? mornings better? What is---
14 UNIDENTIFIED: Let me tell you why.
15 Because we (unintelligible) operators to
16 (unintelligible) that morning (unintelligible).
17 So I say from one to three oclock. It should be
18 one to---one to four, if you could (unintelligible).
19 UNIDENTIFIED: Does the committee have
20 the ability to take the two top---
21 MR. LAVEN: Yeah, you can bring those
22 with you. Just make sure you bring them back with
23 you during the presentation. Like I said at the
24 beginning, all of your notes and all of your
25 proposals, youll have to turn it in at the end,
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1 and itll become part of the public record.
2 UNIDENTIFIED: Do you want MSE today?
3 MR. LAVEN: Its up to you. If you
4 want to leave it here, thats fine. It can save
5 you a little bit of time.
6 MR. DONOVAN: And you need our scoring
7 sheets.
8 MR. LAVEN: Yes, scoring sheets,
9 anything---
10 MR. ROBERTS: You want those today?
11 MR. LAVEN: Yeah. I will have them
12 available on the 20th or if you need to access
13 them between now and the 20th, just give me a
14 call, and well have them. I find its a lot
15 easier to have them in one central location. That
16 way, they dont get lost.
17 MR. DONOVAN: From a scoring standpoint
18 would it behoove us to talk now about---so we have
19 presentations---this is very elaborate. We got into
20 some very good detail. Is there a value of
21 listening to both presentations and just simply as
22 individuals say, Yes, this is my pick, or, That
23 is my pick, from a scoring standpoint? How do
24 you suggest from a structural---
25 MR. RICHARD: Traditionally, because of
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1 the way the process is set up right now, the
2 scores are the scores, and the presentation is
3 intended to---will clarify any concerns, questions
4 you may have, help you to at that time change your
5 scores if you wish (unintelligible) the procedure.
6 MR. LAVEN: Right. Right.
7 MR. RICHARD: So you will have a chance
8 to say, No, I want to change my score in x-area,
9 and then we will have (unintelligible), of course,
10 at that time. Okay, but thats---procedurally,
11 thats how it would proceed.
12 So the first part will be presentations
13 from both concessionaires, and then we will go
14 into a closed session without the concessionaires,
15 just the committee (unintelligible) scoring
16 options.
17 MR. LAVEN: Okay, thank you for the
18 clarity.
19 MR. RICHARD: In regard to---one more---I
20 think you guys (unintelligible). Until we finish
21 the process, which is all the way to city council
22 approval, this is a code of silence. Those of you
23 who havent been in the industry over the last two
24 and a half years cannot appreciate the stress---how
25 highly important that is. The industry has gone
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1 through some very major drama (unintelligible)
2 what happened, but I stress that to you. Please
3 maintain a code of silence. This is intended to
4 be a very transparent process.
5 MR. LAVEN: I thank everybody again.
6 This is a remarkable process. Its a change at
7 Pensacola International Airport for the next 12
8 years. I do thank you, and we will send out a
9 letter to each of you confirming on the 20th and
10 to the top two proposers, well (unintelligible).
11 Thank you.
12
13 WHEREUPON, the meeting was concluded.
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CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF ESCAMBIA
I, PATRICIA D. HITCHCOCK, Registered
Professional Reporter and Notary Public, State of
Florida at Large, hereby certify that I was
authorized to transcribe the foregoing recorded
Selection Committee meeting and that the transcript
is a true record of the proceeding. I further
certify that I am not a relative, employee, attorney
or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative
or employee of any attorney or counsel connected with
the action; nor am I financially interested in this
proceeding or its outcome.
Dated this day of September, 2013.
PATRICIA D. HITCHCOCK
Registered Professional Reporter andNotary Public, State of Florida at Large
My commission expires October 22, 2015.