InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Note:Thefollowingistheoutputresultingfromtranscribinganaudiofileintoaword/textdocument.Althoughthetranscriptionislargelyaccurate,insomecasesmaybeincompleteorinaccurateduetoinaudiblepassagesandgrammatical corrections. It ispostedasanaid to theoriginalaudio file,but shouldnotbe treatedasanauthoritativerecord.

ICANNHistoryProjectInterviewwithRamMohan28June2016

STEVECROCKER: So,thankyouverymuch.Ihavealittlebitofstructureinmindandit’s

going to flow pretty quickly here. So, Ram, thank you very much for

agreeingtospendsometime.This,asIbelieveitisthefirstsessionthat

we’vescheduledinthegrandhistoryprojectoftryingtocaptureICANN’s

history,sowe’llfeelourwayalittlebit.

I’ll ask you a couple of framing questions, and then we’ll be off and

running.You’dbeeninvolvedwithICANNandwiththecommunitythat

ICANN serves for a long time,which is one of the reasonswhywe’ve

selectedyouasoneofthepeoplewewanttotalkto.

Twoquestions. One,aneasyone,and thenwe’ll get into somemore

stuff. Describe roughly your timeframes, your involvement, your

position,andsoforth,justtogiveaquickhistorysowecanplaceyouat

various points in the sequence, and then I’ll come and ask the more

interestingquestion.

RAMMOHAN: It’sapleasuretobehere. Igot involved in ICANNitself in2001. Ihad

beenfollowingICANNinthelate‘90s,whentheClintonadministration

helpedcreateit,butonlyfromafar,andI’dbeenfollowingitbecauseI

hadstartedupacompanythatwastrackingwhatcompaniesweredoing

online. Andoneofthethings,oneofthewaysweweretrackingwhat

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page2of25

companiesaredoingonline,wasto lookat theWHOISregistrationsof

domainnamesregisteredbycompanies.

Andso,myfirstexposuretoICANNreallywasin,Ithink1998,late’98,or

something like that, where this product that I had helped create, we

found that the CTO of MCI, a telecom company at that time, had

registeredadomainname,SkytelWorldCom.com.AndtheserversthatI

hadcreatedhadfoundthatanamehadbeencreated,andIlookedata

WHOIS look up for it, and it turned out that Skytel, a publicly traded

company-itsnamehadbeenregisteredbytheCTOofMCIWorldCom.

AnditgotusonTheWallStreetJournal,andSkyTel’sstockpricewentup

23%,onceitcameout-TheWallStreetJournal,andeverybodyfromboth

companiesdenied therewasanydeal in thework, and thatThursday,

they announced the acquisition of Skytel by WorldCom. They were

planning,apparently,toannounceitMonday,theweekafter,right?

Andthatwasbecause,youknow…So,thatwaskindoftheveryearly

introduction,ifyouwill,butin2001,Ihadmanagedtoputmyselfoutof

ajob,andIwaslookingforwhatthenextthingtodowas.Andtherewas

a littlecompanycalledAfilias,hadapplied forand thenhadwon from

ICANNthelicense,ifyouwill,togoandopenupthefirstnewgTLDever,

aftercom,dotorg,whichisdotinfo.

Andtheywere lookingforsomebodytogoruntheshop,andItook it,

andithasbeenafunridefromthenon.

STEVECROCKER: Mygoodness.YouandImetbecauseofSSAC,andyouwereoneofthe

charter members, recruited by Andrew McLaughlin, prior to my

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page3of25

involvement, in a sort of, what felt sort of slightly backwards. I was

recruitedtochairSSACafterallofthemembershadbeenrecruited.

RAMMOHAN: That’sright.IrememberVinttellingme,"Ram,you’regoingtolikethe

guywhoI’verecruited,"becauseIwasaskinghim,“so,whoisgoingtobe

thechair?”Hesaid,"Ican’ttellyouyet,butyou’regoingtoliketheguy."

Andlittledidheknowhowprescienthewasgoingtobe.

STEVECROCKER: Andalready,you’vegottenmeinto…Ireallyhadn'tintendedondrawing

yououtonthings,but justas longaswe’retouchingon it,drawn into

chairingagroupthathadalreadybeenputtogether-thatIhadnothad

aplan.Iquicklyrealizedthatmyfirstjobwastobuildarelationshipwith

eachofthepeople,andtoestablishbothadegreeofknowledgeanda

certainamountofcredibilitythatitwasokayformetostepin.

So Ichattedwitheachof thepeoplebeforeweassembledasagroup.

Well,SSACisawholebunchofstories.Therearemanywaystocomeat

capturing the history of ICANN. There are tons and tons of written

materialinthearchives,andtranscripts,andallofthat.Iwanttotryto

getatakindofdifferentdimension,whichisthemoreinteresting,big,

well,I’mgoingtomodifythis.Thebigstories,butnotthesobigthatit

seemssimple-minded.Youknow,we’vecreatedICANNandchangedthe

worldkindof thing. Butwheretherealenergy,controversies,energy,

work went into and that absorbed us as individuals, that made a

difference, sometimes negatively even, butmade a difference usually

positively,sothat,[we]getat,attheinner-life,ifyouwill,oftheprocess.

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page4of25

So,letmeaskyoutopickoutsomenumber,one,two,three,whatever

numberofstoriesyouwanttotellthatmayspansometime,andmaycut

acrossorganizationsor subjectmatters,orwhatever, andmay involve

otherpeople,but fromyourperspective,episodesor,as I say, stories,

thatcometomindandstandoutinthiswholeexperience.

RAMMOHAN: I agreewith you, Steve. I think the history of anything, especially an

organizationandacommunitylikeours,isbesttoldbystories,andthe

tippingpointscomefromsmallthingsratherthanthebigthings.Thebig

things are often the combination of a series of smaller things that

happenedfrombefore.Andthefunthingandthe,Ithinktherealskillof

ahistoryproject,istobeabletoassembleandunderstandwhatwerethe

severalsmallthingsthateventuallyledtothatbigmoment,becauseas

yousaid,everybodyunderstandsabigmoment.

So,I’llsayacoupleofthings-asinterestingstoriesthatpopintomymind.

Andforthisone, letmejustfocusontheearlydays. Youknow,2001,

2006,andthattimeframe.

Youknow,2000,1999/2000wasmarkedbythefirsttimeforICANNto

bringoutnewregistrars. Thereusedtobejustoneregistrar,Network

Solutions.Iusedtopay$100aname,andIhad3,500nameswiththem.

And Network Solutions would, I mean, my postman knew Network

Solutions reallywell, because thewayNetwork Solutions invoicedme

wastosendme,everyyear,oneenvelopeforeachdomainnameIhad.

SoIreceived,everyyear,3,500envelopesfromNetworkSolutions,which

ofcourse,at$100apop,theycouldaffordtosendathousandofthose

andnotworryabout it. Right? But I remembergoingandregistering,

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page5of25

creatingaccountswithRegister.com,andcreatingaccountswithDomain

Bank,andtherewerefourtestbedregistrars,Idon’trememberwhothe

otherfourortheothertwowere.

Butthatwasaseminalmoment,becauseitwasnot…Themomentwas

notaboutallofthesuddenthereiscompetition,themomentreallywas,

therewasactuallychoiceforthefirsttime,andyou’renotstuckwithjust

oneplace that does everything, right? And inmyperspective, I don’t

thinkactuallyNetworkSolutionsreactedwelltothecompetitionthatwas

comingin.

They had the monopoly, they had the top position, they could have

doubledup,buttheykindoftookaperspectiveof,we’re justgoingto

consolidate and milk this cow. But I remember, registry names at

register.com,andtryingtotransferthemout,andnobodyknewwhatthe

hecktodo.

I’dcometoICANN,andICANN’schief janitorandchieftroubleshooter,

wasat thatpoint,LouisTouton. Right? And I remembersittingdown

withLouis,andheandIsetdownandwemappedoutwhatthatprocess

shouldbetotransferanamefromoneregistrartoanother.Andthatwas

cooltogoanddo.

Herewe arewithmore acronyms thanwe could hold today, but you

know,intheearlydays,eventhatveryfirstthingwasaprettybigdeal.

AndIwouldsaythatitwasalotofheroiceffortsfromafewpeopleinthe

early days that really brought this organization up and got thewhole

systemgoing.Theotherstorythatisveryfreshinmymind,anditreally

changedmylifeinaverybigway,waswhenICANNdecidedtotakedot

organdputitupforbid.

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page6of25

STEVECROCKER: Yes, letme interrupt for just a second. Iwant tohear that story, but

backinguptothepriorthing.IheardreferencesthatIwanttoflagfor

follow-up, not only with you but others of three things. One is the

introduction of choice slash competition among registrars, the whole

creationoftheregistrarsystem.

Certainlythatisaverymajorchapter,andhastobe…Butit’sgoodthat…

I think it’squitesalientthat itcomesquicklytomindasoneofthebig

things fromyour life. Youalsomentioned thatyourestimate theway

NetworkSolutionshandledthecompetition.Thatstrikesmeasaclassic

potential Harvard Business School case, or a Harvard Business Review

case, of what choice a business makes, and I don’t have enough

informationtoknowwhethertheymadeagoodchoiceorabadchoice,

because there are some seemingly perverse things that companies do

thatturnouttobeexactlytherightthing,eventhoughtheylookfunny

fromtheoutside.Andnow,I’mtryingtorememberthethirdthing.

RAMMOHAN: Louis?

STEVECROCKER Oh, yeah, Louis is many, many stories, but the particular one is the

workingoutoftheinter-registrartransferprocess,andyouknow,it’sa

quickcompetitionandallofthesuddenyou’vegotanewproblemthat

didn’texistbefore,andshouldhavebeenobviousinasense,andthen

thatleadstoquitealotofwork.

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page7of25

So,Iwanttoflagthosethreethings.AndIwantedtomakesurethatwe

heardwhat thenext story is,andwedidn’t lose trackof that. So,we

comebacktodotorg.

RAMMOHAN: Yeah.Andjustbackonthepreviousonethough,forjustasecond.The,

itwas,theinter-registrartransfers,Ithinkactuallyastorythatshouldbe

dugfrommultiplefacets.Thestorythatisoftenandusuallygoingtobe

told,isgoingtobethestoryofpeoplelikeme.Registryfolks,registrars,

etc.,buttherealstoryhastobeofmeasaregistrant,orsomebodyelse

asaregistrant,whatactuallyhappenedtothem?

Becauseletmetellyou,Ispentmanyhoursonthephonewiththesetwo

registrars,andtheywereperhapstryingtobehelpful.Idon’tthinkthey

wereactuallytryingtobehelpful,buteachweretryingtoholdontome.

Andtherewasnothinginthewaytoactuallycomeinandspeakforme,

andtakemyside.

Andtome,thereisaprettybigstoryof,hasICANNactuallyhelpeddo

that?DoesICANNactuallytakethesideoftheactualuserofanInternet

identity?Becausetome,thatisactuallyfundamentallyabigpartofthe

missionofthisorganization.It’snotjustconsumerchoice.It’sactually,

haveyouhelpedthepersonwhohasmadeaninvestment,oftime,and

effort,andmoney,tousetheresourceontheInternet?

STEVECROCKER: That’sabigandveryimportanttopic.Andwhatyou’resaying,is,ifIcan

put somewords in yourmouth, it seemedobvious to you that ICANN

should,somebody,andpresumablyICANNshouldbeonyourside,andit

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page8of25

wasalsonotobviousthattheywere,orperhaps,thattheyhadnotyet

evolvedanddevelopedtheprocessesandsoforth.

And,"ohmygoodness,havetheydonesoyet?" Andsothere isabig

theme that we can follow at various points about ICANN’s role with

respecttobeingtheadvocateoftheregistrant.Goodpoint.

RAMMOHAN: So,Ihaveacoupleofotherstories,buttheotheronethatisalwaysbright

inmymind,isdotorg,becauseoftwothings.Numberone,ICANNdid

theunthinkable.IttookabigTLD,awell-knownbrand,atrustedname,

anditputitupforaglobalbid.

Itwas thekindof thing thatactually formanyof the industry insiders

weresittingtheresaying,“itain’tgoingtohappen,youknow.”VeriSign,

NetworkSolutions,VeriSign,hasgotitallstitchedup.Right.Anditwas

actuallyasenseofprideinwatchingthislittleorganizationthathadjust

afewpeopleinit,actuallygoandmakeithappen.

Andsothatspeaksalottothecharacteroftheplace.Ithinktheyactually

put together a pretty good process. There were three parts of the

evaluation.Therewasthefirsttimethattherehadbeenanycompetitive

biddingforaTLDever.Therewasa2.7millionnameTLD,andifithad

gone from VeriSign to somebody else, it was going to be a massive

transition.

Therewasgoingtobeahugeamountofrisk,andIdaresaythattoday,

today’sICANNwouldnothavedonewhatyesterday’sICANNactuallydid,

because there was no safety net at all. And with the exception of

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page9of25

VeriSign,therewasreallynobodyelsewhohadasignificantamountof

experiencerunningaregistryofscale.

Anditwasactuallyaprettybigrollofthedice.ButIwasverygladtobe

onthesidethatturnedouttobeselectedaspartoftheroleofthedice.

The story there that I think is interesting, is intertwined. The Internet

Societywasindirestraits,hadfinancialtrouble,andthecompanyIwas

workingat,Afilias,wehadanidea.

Wewerelookingtobid,togorundotorg.Wedidn’thaveanyUSP,soto

speak,UniqueSellingPoint,right?Andwewereconcernedabouthow

doyoucompeteagainstVeriSign. WewereexpectingVeriSign tobid.

Theywerenotbarredfrombidding.

STEVECROCKER: Oh,Ididn’tknowthat.

RAMMOHAN: Anditwassaying,howdoyoudifferentiateyourselffromthe800pound

gorilla? And our thought was, maybe we can form a partnership, or

somethinglikethat. Thenwetalkedabout,thisisorg,andthemonies

reallyfromorgoughttogobacktothecommunity,anditoughttoserve

thecommunitythathelpedsupportitandbuildit.

AndISOCwastherightkindofplace,atleastinourminds.Wewentand

talkedtothe ISOCfolks,and itwasaveryclosevote. ISOCwantedto

havenothingtodowithit,andIrememberLynnSt.Amour,thentheCEO

of ISOC and myself, have made a presentation to the ISOC Board

explaining why if this worked andwewon, it would provide financial

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page10of25

securityandstabilityfortheorganization,andthenyou’reaskedtostep

outoftheroombecausetheBoardwasgoingtodeliberate.

Westoodoutsideforthreeandahalfhours,becausetheBoardwassplit

onwhethertogetinvolvedornot.Anditturnedoutthatabigpartof

whytheBoard,thepartoftheBoardthatdidn’twanttodoit,abigpart

was because ICANN was this kind of somewhat dirty, somewhat

squeamish,commerciallyorientedorganization,thatwasprettyad-hoc

initsapproach,andreallynotatthescaleandatthesizethat--thetrue,

therewasnotpurity.

Butthe…Ifyoufast-forward,ICANNranabiginternationalcompetition.

11internationalcompetitorscamein.VeriSignactuallyhadtwobidsout

ofthe11.AndIrememberbeingattheICANNmeetinginBucharest,it

wasaBoardmeeting,inBucharest,inRomania.Therewasastageand

thewayitwasstructured,therewasafinalist,therewasacompetition.

Itgottofinalist,andtheISOC-Afiliasbidwasoneofthefinalists.There

werefourfinalists,wewereoneofthefinalists.Andeachfinalisthad15

minutestomakeapresentationtotheBoard.Itwastimed.Youcould

notexceedthe15minutetime.Vint[Cerf]andIarrivedinBucharestfive

daysorfourdayspriortothemeeting,andyouknow,wewereworking

veryhardtoputagoodPowerPointtogether,getthemessage,andallof

thatright,etc.

ItwasgoingtobepresentedoutofLynn’slaptop.ShehadaMacatthat

time,andtheappointedtimecame.WestoodinfrontoftheBoard.Vint

wasthechairatthattime.Andwespent…Theclockstartedtotick,the

firstminutewent,thesecondminutewent,andnothingcameuponthe

screen.

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page11of25

Wehadabout16slidestocoverin15minutes,andnothingcameupon

thescreen. Andthetechcomesrunningover, jigglesthe littledongle,

andifhehelditacertainway,thenitcameup,heletitgo,itdropped,

andtheclockwasticking.

Andeventuallythetechendedupcoming,andtakingascrewdriver,and

screwingthedongleintotheslotofthecomputer. AndVintendedup

sayingtothepeoplerunningtheclock,“resettheclock,Iwanttomake

surethatLynndoesn’tgetscrewed.”Right?Whichwas,absolutelybroke

thetensionforbothofus.

Right?Becausethisisabigdeal,buthereisVintmakingajoke,andthe

whole audience erupted in laughter. We did the presentation, 15

minutes,itwentthrough,andthereisaQ&Asessioninthere,andoneof

theBoardmembersendedupaskingus,“so,abouthalfofushereonthe

stage,asBoardmembers,abouthalfofusonthestagearemembersof

theInternetSociety,isn’tthataconflictofinterest?”

AndLynngaveaverymemorableanswer.Shesaid,“what’swrongwith

theotherhalfofyou?”

STEVECROCKER: Exactly.

RAMMOHAN: Again,alotoflaughter.Butthattome,signifiedkindofthespiritofhow

itshouldbe,orwhatitoughttobe,whichisyoudeclarethatyouhavean

interestinsomething,butthatdoesn’tstopyoufromactuallyengaging

inimportantstuff.

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page12of25

AndIthinkthat’saprettyimportantprincipletoholdinICANN.Itwas

there at the start, that characterwas there at the start, and I’m very

hopeful,andIthinkit’sreallyimportanttotryandpreservethatkindof

a character going forward,because sometimes you canget lost in the

nuancesof conflict, and it’san important thing,butat the same time,

opennessandhonestyisactuallyaprettygoodantidotetosuspicionand

conspiracytheories.

STEVECROCKER: Lotsof,eveninthatshortthing,severaldifferentthingscomequicklyto

mind.YoumentionedthissenseamongtheISOCBoardthattheydidn’t

knowiftheywantedtogetinvolvedwiththeICANN,becauseithadan

odortoit,kindof.IencounteredthesamethingwhenImadetheone

ononediscussionswith,madetheroundsofthe…

Andeach,Italkedtoeachpersonindividually.Therewasnocross-talk,

andonethemeemergedinarepeatedway,whichwas,securityonthe

Internetisimportant.Weareinterestedindoingthis,andwedon’tknow

ifwereallywanttobeinvolvedwithICANN,but ifwecansortofhold

ourselvesapart,andfocusjustonsecurityissues,we’dbewillingtoget

involved.

So, I think there is a kind of a thing that emerges there. I was very

interestedinyour,youdescribedthatyouinitiatedsearchingforpartner

forthis. ItwasreallythecasethatyouapproachedISOCandtheyhad

notbeenthinkingaboutthispriortothat?

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page13of25

RAMMOHAN: That’sright.Wedecidedweneededapartner.Wedidn’thaveanyone,

wedidn’tknowanyoneat thattimedirectlyonthe ISOCBoard,sowe

ended,Ken[Stubbs]endeduptalkingtoDon[Heath],whohadbeenon

theISOCBoardbefore,andthatgotusanintroductiontoLynn.

AndthenwemetLynn,andwejust,allofushititoff. Wehadshared

ideals,sharedprinciples,andshegotitthattherewas…It’snotjustthat

therewasadealtobedone,butthetermsthatwewereofferingwere

very straightforward. Wewill foot all of the bills. Wewill pay for all

travel,etc.

Allofitwouldbecreatedasaloan,thatwouldbecompletelywrittenoff

ifthebidislost,andthatwillbepaidbackwithnointerestifthebidis

won,right?Andalongtheway,therewere,Ithink,threepayrollcycles

thatweputchecksinfor,butyeah,that’showitstarted,was-ISOCwas

approachedbyus,andLynntellsmebyIFC.

Andthechoicethattheyhadtomakeatthatpointwas,doyoudoanyof

itatall?Andifyoudon’tdo,ifyoudoit,thenwithwhoamong?

STEVECROCKER: Withwhom?That’sinteresting.Sotwopoints.Oneis,LynnSt.Amour

isoneofthemostimportantpeople,eventhoughshe’snoteverbeenan

ICANN person, but the interrelationship between ISOC and ICANN is

important,andsheisevenbeyondhervery,verystrongroleatISOC,one

oftheimportantpeopleintheInternetcommunity.

So,letmeflagthatsheneedstobeinterviewed.Ihadnotknownabout

thecompetitionwithIFC.What…?AreyouawareofwhyISOCwentwith

youinsteadofthem?

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page14of25

RAMMOHAN: Idon’tknowwhyISOCwentwithusinsteadofthem,butIknow…Ihave

asenseofwhyLynnwentwithusinsteadofthem.Ithinknumberone

was,therewasasenseofsharedmission,asenseofsharedprinciples,

therewasjustpersonalchemistrybetween…Therewasafewofuswho

interactedwithLynninthosedays,therewasHalLubsen,theCEO,Ken

Stubbs, myself, Roland [LaPlante], there were four or five of us, and

uniformly,therewasacommonsharedmission.

Theotherreason,Ibelieve,wasthatwewerefinanciallyfarmorestable

thanIFCwas,evenatthattime.Andthelastreasonwasthatwehad,we

wereabletodemonstratetoLynn,theleveloftechnicalinvestmentwe

weremakingintheregistrytechnology,intheDNSspace,andthelevel

ofcommitmentthatwehadtoit,wehadgrownfrom2001,wherewe

werefourpeopleinthecompany,wehadgrowninto-Attheendof2001,

therewereabout20people.Butoutofthe20people,about17ofthem

wereengineers.Right?AnditwasateamthatIhelpedgrow,butthere

wasaverystrong,clearfocuson:gettheengineeringright.Buildasolid

registry.Buildasolidsystem,right?AndIthinkthatmadeanimpression

becausewewerefocusedonthelongterm.

AndIthinkHalwasabletoshowthatthisisaprivatecompanythatwas

lookingfive,10yearsdowntheroad.

STEVECROCKER: YoumentionedthepresentationinBucharest-ithappensthatthatwas

myveryfirstICANNmeeting,anditalsohappensthatincheckinginfor

theflighttogotoBucharest,atWashingtonDullesAirport,andsothere

isnodirectflightfromWashingtontoBucharest,youflythrough,Ithink,

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page15of25

Frankfurt,andsoI’mcheckinginontheflight,andtherewasawoman

nexttomecheckinginforthesameitinerary.Whatarethechances?

So,ofcourse,shewas,infact,goingtotheICANNmeeting,andwespent

theentireflight-shewassomewhatinvolvedwiththebiddingprocess

onthis.So,IhadnotbeeninvolvedbutIthoughtIknewsomethingabout

thecommunity,soIaskedhertowalkmethroughthe11bidders.

Shewalkedmethroughthe11bidders,andeachonewasacombination

of twoor threegroups, andmyheadwas spinning. I couldnotmake

sense.Icouldn’thandicap,IthoughtIoughttobeabletopickoutlikely

onesornot. So, Iwassurprised intheobjectivesenseofnothavinga

prediction,butverypleasantlyso,thatyouguyswonthebid.

Ithoughtthatwasanexcellentresult,andI’lljustnotefortherecordthat

it wasMiriam [Sapiro] who is another very interesting and important

persontotalktoatsomepoint. Whatweretheevaluationcriteria,do

youknow?

RAMMOHAN: Therewere,it’spublic.It’sstillontheICANNwebsite.Infact,allthebids

areuponthe ICANNwebsite,andtheevaluationcriteria. Therewere

threepiecestoit.Onewastechnical.Onehadtodowithsomethinglike

doing good, or social effectiveness, or something like that. I don’t

remembertheprecisewordsforit.

Where ISOC creamed the competition, right? And there was a third

componentwhichwas somesortofa consensusofopinion that came

fromagroupofacademicCIOs,whoevaluatedallofthebids,andcame

outwitharatingschemethatblendedthetechnicalviabilityofeachof

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page16of25

thebids,andcameupwithanevaluationofwho,youknow,wasplaced

best.

Andinthatone,webeateverybodyelse.So,that’showitcameabout.

STEVECROCKER: So, are you saying that you came out in the top of two of those

categories?

RAMMOHAN: Twoofthethree,right? So, inthethird,which isapuretechone,we

cameinsecond.Therewassomeoneelsewhowasfirst,butwhenyou

tookitacrossallthree,weprevailed.

STEVECROCKER: Wow, that’s right. That’sverygood. Ihada slightlydifferentpicture,

but…

RAMMOHAN: Whatwasyourpicture?

STEVECROCKER: Itwas,soIdidn’tlookatthefirst…thedata…Ijust,somebodymadea

remark that thebidwasn’texcellentacross theboard,but itwasvery

goodacrosstheboard,andwhatyou’retellingmeisit’sevenbetterthan

Ihadremembered.SoIthoughtitwassortofchoppier,butthat’sgreat.

That’sgood.So,thatspeaksvery,verywellofyou.

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page17of25

IfVeriSignwascompeting,Iimagineitwouldhavebeenextremelyhard

to showup compared to them in terms of a technical operation. So,

that’sspeaksextremelywell.

RAMMOHAN: Look,therewereacoupleofthingsthatweredifferent,right?VeriSign

didnotproposethenextgenerationoftechnologyatall.VeriSignhada

protocolcalledRegistryRegistrarProtocol,RRP,andtheirproposal,they

wererunningitonRRP.TheirproposalwastocontinuerunningitonRRP,

withnorisk,becauseitwasalreadyworking.

Well,ourbidproposedgoingtoanew,brandnewprotocol,thatactually

hadnotevengottentoRFCstatus.ItwasanIDdraft,itwasa06IDinthe

IETF,andwepickeditup,andtheysaid,we’regoingtodoit.It’sgoing

tobeXMLschema,XMLwasjustbrandnewatthattime.Wesaiditwas

goingtobeXMLschema.

Wesaidthat itwasgoingtobethickregistry, ithadneverbeendone.

Right?

STEVECROCKER: Andyou’vegotguyslikeVintontheBoardwhoaredoingtheevaluation,

Icanjustsee,yes,that’sexactlyright.Godothat.

RAMMOHAN: So,IthinkthathelpedqualifyushigherthanVeriSign,becausewewere…

Ifyoulookatit,weweretakingbiggerrisks,right?Wewerethe…There

wereonlytwobidsofthe11thatproposedanopensourcedatabase;we

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page18of25

wereoneofthem.Becauseweproposedrunningtheentireregistryon

postgreSQL,right?

Andtherewasanopensourcedatabase,andintheevaluationprocess,

theISOCAfiliasgotwackedbadlybyallofthecompetitors,VeriSignhad

a senior vice-president from IBM. They were using DB2. From IBM,

commentinginthepubliccomments,putanabsolute,youknow,helland

damnationonopensourceingeneral,andpostgreSQLinspecific,right?

AndIforgetwhotheothercompanywas. MaybeitwasNeustar,they

wereusingOracle,andtheyhadanOracleVPcominginandsayinghow

open sourcewas unsafe. The codewasmade public and therefore it

couldbeexploited, right? Andwhen I saw that, Iwasactually feeling

prettygoodbecausethereweretechiesontheBoardwhowouldlookat

thatandseeitforthelieitwas.

STEVECROCKER: Right.Veryinteresting.Ihadn’taclueaboutallofthat,that’sinteresting.

Today,andprettyearlyon,andIwantyoutospeaktoit,anotherentity

emergedoutofthisprocess,PublicInterestRegistry,PIR.Wheredidthat

comeaboutintheprocess?ButtheoriginalideawhenAfiliaswentand

spoketoISOC,wasforISOCtobetheregistryoperator,andfortheAfilias

tobetheregistryserviceprovider.

Andthatallofthemoneythatwouldcomeoutoftheregistrationsofdot

orgwouldgotoISOC,andISOCwouldpayAfiliasafeeforrunningthe

service.But,theISOCBoard,thetwothings,atleast,thatIremember,

werethefactorof–andLynnwillknowmore-butthefirstwasthisdesire

toputalittlebitofdistancebetweenICANNandISOC.

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page19of25

But the second more important factor was that there was a clear

probabilityofissuewiththe501c3non-for-profittaxstatusofISOC.And

asaresult,ISOCdecidedtogocreatePublicInterestRegistry,anewnon-

for-profit,inwhichitwouldbethesolestakeholder.Andgetalittlebit

moreprotectionfrom…foritstaxstatus.

STEVECROCKER: Wasthisafteryoutwohadwonthebid?

RAMMOHAN: Yeah.Thecompanywasnotformeduntilthebidwascreated,because

we didn’t want to waste themoney. ISOC didn’t want to spend the

money.ButintheapplicationitselftoICANNatthattime,thewayitwas

createdwas,thebidwaspresentedbytheInternetSocietyfordotorg,

whenyouopenedupthebidandyoureadit,whattheapplicationsaid

was,theInternetSocietywilluseAfiliasasaregistryprovider.

AndtheagreementthatISOCandAfiliashadatthattimewas:Solongas

you’veorg,we’vegotorg,butthebiditselfforICANN,itsaid,shouldwe

prevail,wewill create anewentity called thePublic InterestRegistry,

whichwillhaveamissiontobeanexemplaryregistrytosettheexample

fortheworldofregistryproviders,whichwouldbeaseparateentitywith

itsownBoard,withitsowngovernancestructure,etc.

Anotforprofitorganization.So,ICANNknewthattherewasgoingtobe

actuallyanewentity,butifthebidwas…

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page20of25

STEVECROCKER: Andwasthatanissueatallinthedialogueabouttheevaluation?Ordid

itraiseanyquestionsaboutwhotheyweredealingwith?

RAMMOHAN: The competitors were allowed to comment on each of the other

competitors’bids.Competitorsraisedthatasanissue,andsaidthatthis

wasunnecessary complexity, and in addition, theyalso raised the fact

thatpointsshouldbetakenawayfromtheISOCbid,becausetherewas

thisideatocreateanewentity,withanunknowngovernancestructure,

unknownBoard,etc.

Andthatanypoints thatweregoingtobegivento ISOC,shouldallbe

taken away, because the actual entity that was going to run it was

unknown.

STEVECROCKER: Interesting.Youmentionedawordthatresonatedalotwithme,thatPIR

wasgoingtobeanexemplaryregistry.So,Ijustwanttoflagthatthereis

another story and thread there about the role PIR played in the

constellation of registries, because the initial structure was VeriSign

runningcomandnet,andithadorg.

AndwhendidNeustarcomealonginthis…?

RAMMOHAN: 2001.

STEVECROCKER: 2001.

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page21of25

RAMMOHAN: December2001.

STEVECROCKER: And so thosewere established registries, and nowwe’re bringing in…

Were there any others? Thereweren’t. So, we’re bringing in a new

registry,andwhen Igot involved, I sawthat ICANNhadsome,a lotof

bureaucracyandastrongsenseofrestraintaboutwhatitcoulddoand

howitshouldbehave.

Soeventhoughitwantedtoactgenerally inthepublic interest, italso

feltobligedtobesomewhatneutral,andnotapplytoomuchpressure

when[inaudible].So,Ihadathought,andIhadmultiplerolesinallof

thisbecauseIwasontheISOCBoardforaperiodoftime,afterthebid,I

wasontheISOCBoardfrom2003until2006.

Andbythattime,thingswereupandrunning,butstillatanearlystage.

AndIremember,expressingto,actuallytoPIR…Iwasinvitedtogivea

talktotheiradvisorycommittee,andtothestaffoneevening,thatPIR

hadanatural, very special roleofbeingexactly thewordyou said, an

exemplary registry. Exemplary in three dimensions. They should be

exemplaryasabusiness.

Theyshouldactuallybesuccessfulasabusiness. There isnoquestion

aboutthat.Theyshouldbesuccessfulinleadershipofcleanoperation.

Andtheyshouldbeexemplaryasathoughtleaderinthecommunity.

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page22of25

WecouldlookbackathowPIRfaredinallofthis.Somegood,somefall

short of expectations, but generally pretty good. But I’m glad you

mentionedthat,becauseitresonatedverystronglywithme.

We’renearingtimeforthissession.Butwedohavetimefor,afewmore

minutes. Another short story, or a thought, or an embellishment, or

suggestionsforhowweshouldproceedwiththis?

RAMMOHAN: I’dlovetohearyourstoryofwhyyoudecidedtoagreetoVint’scallto

comeandchairSSAC.

STEVECROCKER: Thiswouldbe,asmysonwouldsay,averyhumblestory,andsince,and

that’sapejorativeterm…I’llgobackafewyears.Ihadbeeninvolvedin

averyaggressivestart-uptopioneermovingfinancialtransactionsonthe

Internet, a company calledCyberCash. Founded in ‘90… We started

discussions in ’93, foundedin ’94. I joined it. Wehadaveryfastrise,

wentpublicrightaway,andthengotintoprogressivetrouble.

InJuneof’98,Ileftthecompany.AndIsentnotesouttovariousfriends

that Iwasoutof it. Averyold friend,BobMetcalfe,whowasawell-

knownguy,sentmebackanotesaying,don’tdoanythingforsixmonths.

AndIsaid,really?Hesaidyeah.

Itookthesummeroff,andthengraduallystartedtolookfortrouble.And

Igotinvolvedinastart-upofmyown,anditdiedacoupleofyearslater.

So,thesequencein2001was9/11hit,andthathadabroadscaleeffect,

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page23of25

andamongotherthings,itabsolutelysealedthefateofthiscompanythat

wewerestrugglingwith.

AndonHalloween,October31st,weclosedthedoors.So,attheendof

October,2001,Iamunemployed.Iamingoodfinancialshapepersonally.

TheCyberCashventureandpreviouslyhadputmeingoodshape.So,

I’mnowatastage inmy lifewhere I’m, Ihavea lotof freedomthat I

neverhadbefore,andI’msortoflookingaroundforwhattodo.

AndVintcallsmeup.AndIhadwatchedfromafarthecreationofICANN,

butIhadn’tbeeninvolved.Andhesaid,explainedthat…So,oneofthe

consequences of the 9/11 event was that ICANN, like every other

organization in the world, said security is important, and they held a

symposiuminMarinadelReyinNovember,ifIrecall.Iwasnotthere.

RAMMOHAN: Iwasthere.

STEVECROCKER: Andyouwerethere.

RAMMOHAN: Therewassevenofus.

STEVECROCKER: And therewas somevery goodpresentations,whichare still available

online.AndVinthadexplainedthatthathadhappenedandtheintention

wastocreateanAdvisoryCommittee,andifIwouldjust…VintandIgo

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page24of25

way,wayback.IfIwouldjuststepinandgetitgoing.Sixmonthswould

beenough.

So,Iknewfullwellthatwasanunderestimatetosaytheveryleast.But

I thought itwould be fun, and I had some background in that. I had

previouslybeenthefirstareadirectorforsecurityintheIETF.So,when

the security areawasput together in the IETF, and theywere looking

aroundforsomebodytodo,Iwoundupwiththatjob.

Sothiswas,inaway,related,sortofanaturalsegueinanotherway.And

asIsaid,itcaughtmeatapointintimewhenIhadfreetime,andwas

lookingforvariousinvolvements.Itookonthreeseparateinvolvements,

butthisone-Oneofthemdiedaway.OneofthewasthecompanyIhad

created,andoneofthemwasgettinginvolvedwithICANN.

AndIenjoyedit.IlikedthechallengeofstructuringSSACandtryingto

getanagendatogetherandasenseofdirection.Thepeopleweregood,

and ICANN,my reaction to ICANNwasnotasnegativeas someof the

peopleyouknow,Irecognizedthepolitics,butIalsorecognizedthatit

hadapositivemission.

Andinatleastafewcases,thereweresomefantasticpeople,ofwhich

youareatthetopofmylist.

RAMMOHAN: You’reverykind.

STEVECROCKER: No,trulyso.Thatoneofthepersonalpleasures,inadditiontopeopleI

alreadyknewlikeVintorothers,butintermsofnewpeople,Iwasat,sort

InterviewwithRamMohan EN

Page25of25

of,laterstageinlifewasgettingtoknowyou.You’reanamazingperson,

butthat’smaybeaseparatestory.Andso,that’stheanswertohowIgot

involved,andthenitwasalong,downhillslidefromtheretochairingthe

Board.

RAMMOHAN: CharingtheBoard,yes.AndthenyouenticedmetogetontheBoard,

afteryou.

STEVECROCKER: Yeah,sothereisanothersetofstories. Thankyouverymuch. You’ve

nowseentheattemptataprocesshere.Youareherebyinductedinto

theadvisoryprocessforthis,aswellasaprimarycontributor.

[ENDOFTRANSCRIPTION]