Regional Oral History Office University of California ... · In general, participating programs...

Regional Oral His tory Off ice The Bancroft Library

Univers i ty of Ca l i fo rn i a Berkeley, C a l i f o r n i a

Government His tory Documentation P r o j e c t Ronald Reagan Guberna tor ia l Era

GOVERNOR REAGAN AND HIS CABINET: AN INTRODUCTION

Gordon Luce A Banker's View of S t a t e Administrat ion and Republican P o l i t i c s

Verne O r r Business Leadership i n t h e Department of Motor Vehicles and S t a t e Finance

Ronald Reagan On Becoming Governor

Interviews Conducted by Gabr i e l l e Morris

and Sarah Sharp 1979 - 1983

Copyright @ 1986 by t h e Regents of t h e Univers i ty of Ca l i fo rn i a

This manuscript i s made a v a i l a b l e f o r r e sea rch purposes. No p a r t of t h e manuscript may be quoted f o r pub l i ca t ion without t h e w r i t t e n permission of t h e Di rec to r of The Bancroft Library of t h e Univers i ty of C a l i f o r n i a a t Berkeley.

Requests f o r permission t o quote f o r pub l i ca t ion should be addressed t o t h e Regional Ora l His tory Of f i ce , 486 Library , and should inc lude i d e n t i f i c a t i o n of t h e s p e c i f i c passages t o be quoted, a n t i c i p a t e d use of t h e passages, and i d e n t i f i c a t i o n of t h e use r .

It i s recommended t h a t t h i s o r a l h i s t o r y be c i t e d a s fol lows:

To c i t e t h e volume: Governor Reagan.and H i s Cabinet: An In t roduc t ion , an o r a l h i s t o r y conducted 1979-1983, Regional Ora l His tory Of f i ce , The Bancroft L ibrary , Univers i ty of Ca l i fo rn i a , Berkeley, 1986.

To c i t e i n d i v i d u a l in te rv iew: Gordon Luce, "A Banker 's View of S t a t e Administrat ion and Republican P o l i t i c s , " a n o r a l h i s t o r y conducted by G a b r i e l l e Morris and Sarah Sharp i n 1981 and 1983 i n Governor Reagan and H i s Cabinet: -An In t roduc t ion , Regional Oral His tory Of f i ce , The Bancroft L ibrary , Univers i ty of Ca l i fo rn i a , Berkeley, 19 86.

Copy No.

PREFACE

C a l i f o r n i a government and p o l i t i c s from 1966 through 1974 are t h e focus of t h e Reagan Gube rna to r i a l Era S e r i e s of t h e s t a t e Government H i s to ry Documenta- t i o n P r o j e c t , conducted by t h e Regional Ora l H i s to ry O f f i c e of The Bancrof t L i b r a r y w i th t h e p a r t i c i p a t i o n of t h e o r a l h i s t o r y programs a t t h e Davis and Los Angeles campuses of t h e U n i v e r s i t y of C a l i f o r n i a , Claremont Graduate School , and C a l i f o r n i a S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y a t F u l l e r t o n . Th i s series of i n t e r v i e w s c a r r i e s forward s t u d i e s of s i g n i f i c a n t i s s u e s and p roce s se s i n p u b l i c a d m i n i s t r a t i o n begun by t h e Regional O r a l H i s t o r y O f f i c e i n 1969. I n p rev ious series, i n t e r - views w i th over 220 l e g i s l a t o r s , e l e c t e d and appoin ted o f f i c i a l s , and o t h e r s a c t i v e i n p u b l i c l i f e du r ing t h e governorsh ips of E a r l Warren, Goodwin Knigh t , and Edmund Brown, S r . , were completed and a r e now a v a i l a b l e t o s c h o l a r s .

The f i r s t u n i t i n t h e Government H i s t o r y Documentation P r o j e c t , t h e E a r l Warren S e r i e s , produced i n t e r v i e w s w i th Warren h imse l f and o t h e r s c e n t e r e d on key developments i n p o l i t i c s and government a d m i n i s t r a t i o n a t t h e s t a t e and county l e v e l , i nnova t i ons i n c r i m i n a l j u s t i c e , p u b l i c h e a l t h , and s o c i a l w e l f a r e from 1925-1953. I n t e rv i ews i n t h e Knight-Brown Era c o n t i n u e d t h e earl ier i n q u i r i e s i n t o t h e n a t u r e of t h e governor ' s o f f i c e and i ts r e l a t i o n s w i t h e x e c u t i v e depar tments and t h e l e g i s l a t u r e , and e x p l o r e d t h e r a p i d s o c i a l and economic changes i n t h e y e a r s 1953-1966, a s w e l l as p r e s e r v i n g Brown's own account of h i s e x t e n s i v e p o l i t i c a l c a r e e r . Among t h e i s s u e s documented were t h e rise and f a l l o f t h e Democratic p a r t y ; e s t ab l i shmen t of t h e C a l i f o r n i a Water P l an ; e l e c t i o n l a w changes , reapport ionment and new p o l i t i c a l t e chn iques ; educa t i on and v a r i o u s s o c i a l programs.

During Ronald Reagan's y e a r s a s governor , impor tan t changes became e v i d e n t i n C a l i f o r n i a government and p o l i t i c s . H i s a d m i n i s t r a t i o n marked an end t o t h e p rog re s s ive pe r i od which had provided t h e de te rmin ing o u t l i n e s of government o r g a n i z a t i o n and p o l i t i c a l s t r a t e g y s i n c e 1910 and t h e beg inn ing of a pe r i od of l i m i t s i n s t a t e p o l i c y and programs, t h e e x t e n t of which i s n o t y e t c l e a r . I n t e rv i ews i n t h i s series d e a l w i th t h e e f f o r t s of t h e a d m i n i s t r a t i o n t o i n c r e a s e government e f f i c i e n c y and economy and w i th o r g a n i z a t i o n a l i nnova t i ons designed t o expand t h e management c a p a b i l i t y of t h e governor ' s o f f i c e , a s w e l l a s c r i t i c a l a s p e c t s of s t a t e h e a l t h , educa t i on , w e l f a r e , conse rva t i on , and c r i m i n a l j u s t i c e programs. L e g i s l a t i v e and e x e c u t i v e department n a r r a t o r s p rov ide t h e i r pe rspec- t i v e s on t h e s e e f f o r t s and t h e i r impact on t h e con t i nu ing p roce s s of l e g i s l a t i v e and e l e c t i v e p o l i t i c s .

Work began on t h e Reagan Gube rna to r i a l Era S e r i e s i n 1979. P lann ing and r e s e a r c h f o r t h i s phase of t h e p r o j e c t were augmented by p a r t i c i p a t i o n of o t h e r o r a l h i s t o r y programs w i t h expe r i ence i n p u b l i c a f f a i r s . Add i t i ona l a d v i s o r s were s e l e c t e d t o p rov ide r e l e v a n t background f o r i d e n t i f y i n g persons t o be i n t e rv i ewed and unders tand ing of i s s u e s t o be documented. P r o j e c t r e s e a r c h f i l e s , developed by t h e Regional Ora l H i s to ry O f f i c e s t a f f t o p rov ide a s y s t e m a t i c background f o r q u e s t i o n s , were updated t o add pe r sona l , t o p i c a l , and ch rono log i ca l d a t a f o r t h e Reagan pe r i od t o t h e e x i s t i n g ba se of i n fo rma t ion f o r 1925 through 1966, and t o supplement r e s e a r c h by p a r t i c i p a t i n g programs a s needed. Valuable , con t i nu ing a s s i s t a n c e i n p r e p a r i n g f o r i n t e r v i e w s w a s provided by t h e Hoover I n s t i t u t i o n a t S t an fo rd U n i v e r s i t y , which houses t h e Ronald Reagan Papers , and by t h e S t a t e Archives i n Sacramento.

An e f f o r t w a s made t o s e l e c t a range of i n t e rv i ewees t h a t would r e f l e c t t h e i n c r e a s e i n government r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s and t h a t would r e p r e s e n t d i v e r s e p o i n t s o f view. I n g e n e r a l , p a r t i c i p a t i n g programs were c o n t r a c t e d t o conduct i n t e r v i e w s on t o p i c s wi th which t hey have p a r t i c u l a r e x p e r t i s e , w i th persons p r e s e n t l y l o c a t e d nearby. Each i n t e r v i e w i s i d e n t i f i e d as t o t h e o r i g i n a t i n g i n s t i t u t i o n . Most i n t e r v i e w e e s have been que r i ed on a l i m i t e d number o f t o p i c s w i t h which they were. p e r s o n a l l y connected; a few n a r r a t o r s w i th unusua l b r e a d t h o f expe r i ence have been asked t o d i s c u s s a m u l t i p l i c i t y o f sub j ec t s . When p o s s i b l e , t h e i n t e r v i e w s have t r a c e d t h e c o u r s e of s p e c i f i c i s s u e s l e a d i n g up t o and r e s u l t i n g from e v e n t s du r ing t h e Reagan a d m i n i s t r a t i o n i n o r d e r t o develop a s e n s e o f t h e c o n t i n u i t y and i n t e r r e l a t i o n s h i p s t h a t are a s i g n i f i c a n t a s p e c t o f t h e government p roce s s .

Throughout Reagan's y e a r s a s governor , t h e r e was c o n s i d e r a b l e i n t e r e s t and s p e c u l a t i o n concern ing h i s p o t e n t i a l f o r t h e p r e s idency ; by t h e t i m e i n t e rv i ew- i n g f o r t h i s p r o j e c t began i n l a t e 1980, h e was indeed p r e s i d e n t . P r o j e c t i n t e r v i e w e r s have a t t emp ted , where a p p r o p r i a t e , t o r e t r i e v e r e c o l l e c t i o n s of t h a t contemporary concern as i t ope ra t ed i n t h e governor ' s o f f i c e . The i n t e n t o f t h e p r e s e n t i n t e r v i e w s , however, is t o document t h e c o u r s e of C a l i f o r n i a government from 1967 t o 1974, and ~ e a g a n ' s impact on i t . While many i n t e rv i ew- e e s frame t h e i r n a r r a t i v e s o f t h e Sacramento y e a r s i n r e l a t i o n t o g o a l s and performance of Reagan's n a t i o n a l admin i s t r a t don , t h e i r comments o f t e n c l a r i f y a s p e c t s o f t h e g u b e r n a t o r i a l pe r i od t h a t were n o t c l e a r a t t h e t i m e . L ike o t h e r h i s t o r i c a l documentat ion, t h e s e o r a l h i s t o r i e s do n o t i n themselves p rov ide t h e complete r e co rd of t h e p a s t . It i s hoped that they o f f e r f i r s t h a n d expe r i ence o f p a s s i o n s and p e r s o n a l i t i e s that have i n f l uenced s i g n i f i c a n t even t s p a s t and p r e s e n t .

The Reagan Gube rna to r i a l Era S e r i e s was begun w i th funding from t h e C a l i f o r n i a l e g i s l a t u r e v i a t h e o f f i c e of t h e S e c r e t a r y of S t a t e and con t inued through t h e g e n e r o s i t y o f . v a r i o u s i n d i v i d u a l donors . S e v e r a l memoirs have been funded i n p a r t by t h e C a l i f o r n i a Women i n P o l i t i c s P r o j e c t under a g r a n t from t h e National.Endowment f o r t h e Humani t ies , i n c l u d i n g a matching g r a n t from t h e Rocke fe l l e r Foundat ion; by t h e S i e r r a Club P r o j e c t z l s o under a NEH g r a n t ; and by t h e p r i v a t e l y funded Bay Area S t a t e and Regional P lann ing P r o j e c t . Th is j o i n t fund ing h a s enab led s t a f f working w i t h n a r r a t o r s and t o p i c s r e l a t e d t o s e v e r a l p r o j e c t s t o expand t h e scope and thoroughness of each i n d i v i d i a l i n t e r v i e w involved by c a r e f u l c o o r d i n a t i o n of t h e i r work.

The Regional Oral H i s to ry O f f i c e was e s t a b l i s h e d t o t a p e r e c o r d au tob io- g r a p h i c a l i n t e r v i e w s w i t h persons s i g n i f i c a n t i n t h e h i s t o r y of C a l i f o r n i a and t h e West. The O f f i c e is under t h e a d m i n i s t r a t i v e d i r e c t i o n of James D. Hart, D i r e c t o r of t h e Bancrof t L ib r a ry , and Willa Baum, head of t h e O f f i c e . Copies o f a l l i n t e r v i e w s i n t h e s e r i e s a r e a v a i l a b l e f o r r e s e a r c h u se i n The Bancrof t L i b r a r y , UCLA Department of S p e c i a l C o l l e c t i o n s , and t h e S t a t e Archives i n Sacramento. Se l ec t ed i n t e r v i e w s a r e a l s o a v a i l a b l e a t o t h e r manuscr ip t d e p o s i t o r i e s .

J u l y 1982 Regional Oral H i s to ry O f f i c e 486 The Bancrof t L i b r a r y Un ive r s i t y of C a l i f o r n i a a t Berkeley

G a b r i e l l e Morr i s P r o j e c t D i r e c t o r

iii

REAGAN GUBERNATORIAL ERA PROJECT

Advisory Council

Eugene Bardach Charles Benson Nicole Biggart John Burns Lou Cannon Bert Coffey Edmund Cons tan t in i Lawrence deGraaf Enid Douglass Harold E. Geiogue James Gregory Ronald Gre le Gary Hamil ton Mary E l l e n Leary Eugene C. Lee

In te rv iewers

Malca Chal l A. I. Dickman* Enid Douglass Steve Edgington Harvey Grody Harry P. J e f f r e y Ann Lage G a b r i e l l e Morris Sarah Sharp J u l l e Shearer Stephen S t e r n M i t ch Tuchman

James W. Leiby Edwin Meese I11 Sheldon L. Messinger James R. M i l l s William K. Muir Charles Palm A. Alan Post A lbe r t S. Rodda Ed Salzman Paul Seabury Alex S h e r r i f f s Michael E. Smith A. Ruric Todd Molly S turges T u t h i l l Raymond Wolf inger

*Deceased during t h e term of t h e p r o j e c t

On behalf of f u t u r e scholars , t h e Regional Oral Hls tory O f f ~ c e wishes t o t hank t h o s e who have r e sponded t o t h e O f f i c e ' s r e q u e s t f o r f u n d s t o cont inue documentation of Ronald Reagan's yea r s a s governor of Cal i forn ia . Donors t o the p r o j e c t a r e l i s t e d below.

Anonymous

Margaret Brock

Monroe Brown

Edward W. Ca r t e r

Sherman Chickering

A y l e t t B. Cotton

J u s t i n Dart*

Willlam C. Edwards

James M. H a l l

William Randolph Hearst

William Hewlett

J aque l in Hume

Ear l e Jorgensen

L. W. Lane, Jr.

Gordon C. Luce

Norman B. Llvermore, Jr . Joseph A. and Gladys G. Moore

David Packard

Robert 0. Reynolds

Henry and Grace S a l v a t o r i

P o r t e r Sesnon

Dean A. Watkins

INTRODUCTION

I n h i s f i r s t days a s governor of Ca l i fo rn i a , Ronald Reagan was somewhat unce r t a in about how t o go about being governor al though c l e a r about what h e wished t o accomplish. Many of h i s i n i t i a l appointees a s cab ine t s e c r e t a r i e s and department d i r e c t o r s were, l i k e Reagan h imse l f , un fami l i a r w i th s t a t e government procedures; more important t o Reagan and h i s k i t chen c a b i n e t , t he se new appoin tees had been c a r e f u l l y screened t o be s u r e they supported t h e governor 's goa ls . The enthusiasm wi th which t h i s new admin i s t r a t i on faced i ts t a s k s i n 1967 is r e f l e c t e d i n t h e in te rv iews i n t h i s volume wi th Ronald Reagan, Gordon Luce, and Verne Orr .

Luce and O r r were among those s t a t e o f f i c i a l s r e c r u i t e d from t h e co rpo ra t e community t o implement Reagan's campaign promise t o b r ing e f f i c i e n t bus iness methods t o bear on t h e upward s p i r a l of t h e c o s t of government. Luce was named t o head t h e Transpor ta t ion Agency ( l a t e r t h e Bus ines sand Transpor ta t ion Agency) and O r r a s d i r e c t o r of t h e Department of Motor Vehicles and l a t e r t h e cabine t - leve l Department of Finance. Both men cont inue t o be among Pres ident Reagan's c l o s e a s s o c i a t e s , O r r a s Secre ta ry of t h e Air Force and Luce i n Republican p a r t y counsels . The in te rv iews i n d i c a t e t h e s i m i l a r i t y of th inking on government ma t t e r s between Reagan and t h e s e depu t i e s and t h e easygoing manner w i th which they p r e f e r r e d t o d e a l w i th one another .

These in te rv iews were o r i g i n a l l y planned a s t h e i n i t i a l s e s s i o n s of longer , d e t a i l e d o r a l h i s t o r y memoirs t o be conducted wi th each of t h e t h r e e men, designed t o f u l l y explore t h e i r experiences i n s t a t e government and t h e evo lu t ion of p u b l i c po l i cy i n C a l i f o r n i a during Reagan's two terms a s governor. Reagan's e l e c t i o n t o t h e presidency i n 1980, r e s u l t i n g i n new r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s of n a t i o n a l scope f o r Orr and Luce a s w e l l a s Reagan, have made i t imprac t i ca l t o c a r r y out t h e s e in te rv iews a s planned, a s we l l a s in te rv iews begun f o r t h e p r o j e c t w i th Michael Deaver, Edwin Meese, and o the r i n d i v i d u a l s c l o s e t o Reagan dur ing h i s yea r s a s governor. The in te rv iews wi th Reagan, Luce, and O r r a s they s tand he re in , however, a r e worthy in t roduc t ions t o t h e a t t i t u d e s and pe r sona l r e l a t i o n s h i p s t h a t shaped t h e Reagan gube rna to r i a l admin i s t r a t i on , many of which have cont inued throughout t h e presidency. For t h i s reason t h e dec i s ion was made t o complete product ion of t h e in te rv iews f o r t h e Reagan Guberna tor ia l Era P ro j ec t a s a b a s e l i n e f o r in te rv iewing t h a t w i l l undoubtedly be done by f u t u r e o r a l h i s t o r y p r o j e c t s documenting Ronald Reagan's y e a r s i n pub l i c o f f i c e .

Gabr i e l l e Morris Proj e c t Di rec t or

February 1986 Regional Oral His tory Off ice 486 The Bancroft L ibrary Univers i ty of Ca l i fo rn i a a t Berkeley

Regional Oral His tory Off ice The Bancroft L ibrary

Univers i ty of C a l i f o r n i a Berkeley, Ca l i fo rn i a

Government History Documentation P r o j e c t Ronald Reagan Gubernat or f a 1 Era

Gordon Luce

A BANKER'S VIEW OF STATE ADMINISTRATION AND REPUBLICAN POLITICS

A n In te rv iew Conducted by Gabr i e l l e Morris

and Sarah Sharp

1981 and 1983

Copyright @ 1986 by t h e Regents of t h e Univers i ty of Ca l i fo rn i a

TAl3LE OF CONTENTS -- Gordon Luce

INTERVIEW HISTORY i

BRIEF BIOGRAPHY iii

I RONALD REAGAN'S.ELECTION AND TRANSITION INTO THE GOVERNOR~S OFFICE 1 San Diego Campaign Committee 1 Recommending and R e c r u i t i n g Appointees 7

I1 BUSINESS AND TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY O r g a n i z a t i o n and S t a f f i n g Businessmen i n Government Seeking Economy and E f f i c i e n c y

111 THE GOVERNOR~S CABINET Agency and Governor 's O f f i c e I n t e r a c t i o n Dea l ing w i t h t h e L e g i s l a t u r e Working w i t h Governor Reagan

I V RETRACING THE BUSINESS AND TRANSPORTATION AGENCY SECRETARYSHIP, 1967-1969 Balancing T r a n s p o r t a t i o n Needs With Environmental C o n s i d e r a t i o n s Notes on S p e c i f i c Cont rovers ies : The Century Freeway, Minera l

King, and t h e Tahoe Br idge

V SERVICE FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY 4 5 Ronald Reagan and P r e s i d e n t i a l P o l i t i c s : 1968 and 1972 4 5 Roles a s S t a t e P a r t y Vice-Chair and C h a i r ; The Shadow of Watergate 48 Ronald Reagan: "A Good P a r t y Worker" 55

TAPE GUIDE 5-8

INDEX 5 9

INTERVIEW HISTORY

The fol lowing in t e rv i ew wi th Gordon Luce provides a c l e a r , in format ive p i c t u r e of t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p between ga in ing acceptance f o r a p o l i t i c a l philosophy and t h e p r a c t i c a l a spec t s of p u t t i n g i t i n t o a c t i o n a s experienced by one who worked wi th Ronald Reagan on h i s e a r l y campaigns and a s a member of h i s gube rna to r i a l cab ine t .

Luce was a l r eady a l eade r i n southern Ca l i fo rn i a Republican a f f a i r s when he became chairman of Reagan's San Diego County e l e c t i o n committee i n 1966. Accepting a d r a f t by t h e governor 's personnel sc reening committee, he served a s s e c r e t a r y of t h e Business and Transpor ta t ion Agency f o r t h r e e yea r s . I n 1971, a t Reagan's r eques t , Luce r a n f o r and was e l e c t e d v i c e chairman of t h e Republican S t a t e Cent ra l Committee and two years l a t e r moved up t o chairman. He cont inues t o be a source of support and advice f o r Pres ident Reagan, inc luding serv ing a s a t r u s t e e of t h e Reagan Col lec t ion a t t h e Hoover I n s t i t u t i o n . I n t h i s capac i ty , he provided va luab le a s s i s t a n c e t o t h e Reagan Guberna tor ia l Era P r o j e c t i n i t s formative s t age .

I n d i scuss ing h i s v a r i e d pub l i c a c t i v i t i e s , Luce desc r ibes t h e s i m i l a r i t y of h i s and Reagan's th inking a s w e l l a s h i s own r o l e i n shaping t h e p o l i c i e s t o c a r r y out t h e i r i d e a s . "During t h e campaign--he [Reagan] s a i d t h i s often-- we t a l k e d about reducing t h e s i z e and c o s t of government." When he a r r i v e d i n Sacramento Luce succes s fu l ly urged t h a t t h e r eo rgan iza t ion p lans under cons ide ra t ion inc lude combining bus iness a c t i v i t i e s and t r a n s p o r t a t i o n i n one agency i n o rde r t o conso l ida t e and encourage i n t e r a c t i o n between t h e i r func t ions . Once t h e agency was formed, Luce sought t o balance t h e highway- dominated t r a n s p o r t a t i o n program wi th a s t ronge r mass- t rans i t program and increased environmental p r o t e c t i o n , f o r which he won t h e governor 's suppor t .

Speaking of Reagan's cab ine t , Luce comments t h a t "It took days and weeks t o syn thes i ze an i s s u e [before] we would f i n a l l y b r ing i t t o t h e governor." It "wasn't j u s t a sounding-board group, i t was a very formal kind of s i t u a t i o n . " And y e t whenever Luce requested, Reagan was a v a i l a b l e t o come and v i s i t t h e agency s t a f f . "He seemed t o t h r i v e on h i s r o l e , and t h e more he l ea rned , t h e more he enjoyed t h e job."

To h i s s u r p r i s e , Luce found t h a t he had t o run hard f o r t h e s t a t e c e n t r a l committee, even though he was Reagan's choice. " P a r t i c u l a r l y i n Los Angeles, we have t h e s e o the r people who have been working [ f o r t h e p a r t y ] f o r years ." They want t o know, "Are you going t o be a good chairman o r no t?" A s Republican v i c e c h a i r and c h a i r Luce a t tended p a r t y conventions, d e a l t wi th a d e f i c i t , and worked t o encourage p a r t y u n i t y . To this end, t h e r e were r e g u l a r meetings of

p a r t y people wi th t h e governor. I n providing capsule comments on s p e c i f i c e l e c t i o n campaigns, Luce no te s t h a t i n 1972 he cha i red t h e C a l i f o r n i a committee t o r e - e l ec t Richard Nixon and l a t e r a s s t a t e p a r t y chairman had t o suggest t h a t Pres ident Nixon r e s ign .

Two in te rv iews were recorded wi th Luce. For t h e s e s s i o n on March 13, 1981, t h e in t e rv i ewer was Gabr i e l l e Morris and t h e focus was s e t t i n g up t h e Reagan admin i s t r a t i on i n Sacramento. A t t h e second s e s s i o n on February 18, 1983, Sarah Sharp asked a d d i t i o n a l ques t ions on Luce's work wi th t h e governor 's cab ine t and wi th Republican campaigns. Both se s s ions were taped in-Mr. Luce's handsome execut ive o f f i c e a t Great American Fede ra l Savings Bank i n San Diego. Luce reviewed t h e e d i t e d t r a n s c r i p t wi th c a r e and made few r e v i s i o n s .

G a b r i e l l e Morris Interviewer-Editor

February 1986 Regional Oral His tory Off ice 486 The Bancroft L ibrary Univers i ty of C a l i f o r n i a a t Berkeley

Regional Oral Hi s to ry O f f i c e Room 486 The Bancroft L ib ra ry

Univers i ty of C a l i f o r n i a Berkeley, C a l i f o r n i a 94720

iii.

BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION

(P lease p r i n t o r w r i t e c l e a r l y )

Your f u l l name . Gordon Coppard Luce

Date 'of b i r t h Nov. 21, 1925 P lace of b i r t h San D i e ~ o . CA

Fa the r ' s f u l l name Edgar Augustine . Luce

B i r t h ~ l a c e San Diego, CA

Occupation Attorne y-at -Law

Mother's f u l l name .Carma Coppard

B i r t h p l a c e Texas

Occupation

Where d i d grow

Presen t community

San Diego, CA

San Diego, CA

Education B.A., Stanford Universi ty, 1950; M.B . A . . Stanford Universi tv. 1952;

postgraduate, Indiana University School of Savings & Loan, 1959.

i n t e r e s t s or a c t i v i t i e s Travel , po l i t ica l involvement ,

community a f f a i r s

I RONALD REAGAN'S ELECTTON AND TRANSTTTON INTO THE GOVERNOR'S OFFTCE

[ I n t e r v i e w 1: March 1 3 , 198111I1I

San Diego Campaign Committee

Morr is : One of t h e t h i n g s t h a t is p a r t i c u l a r l y i n t e r e s t i n g i s how people came t o go i n t o government s e r v i c e . Had you worked w i t h t h e Republican p a r t y ?

Luce : Y e s , I had been an a c t i v e Republican worker, a v o l u n t e e r worker i n San Diego County. I was then Governor Reagan's chairman f o r t h e g u b e r n a t o r i a l campaign i n 1966. A f t e r t h e e l e c t i o n , T became a p a r t o f h i s pe rsonne l s c r e e n i n g committee which w a s t o h e l p recommend people f o r p o s i t i o n s i n t h e new government i n Sacramento. Then I was d r a f t e d from t h a t committee i n t o Sacramento, i n t o t h e admin . i s t ra t ion i n December of 1966.

Morr i s : Could you t e l l m e a l i t t l e b i t more about t h e personne l s c r een ing committee? Was t h e r e a s e p a r a t e one i n each county?

Luce: There was an a t t emp t a t t h a t . 1 was asked t o form a committee i n San Diego a f t e r t h e e l e c t i o n t o c o l l e c t names from San Diego t h a t might be good cand ida t e s f o r p o s i t i o n s i n t h e new government. We had a committee of maybe twelve people .

Morr is : I n San Diego?

Luce: Yes, and I s e l e c t e d t h a t group. These were mainly people who were known i n t h e community. Some had been s u p p o r t e r s of Governor Reagan and some had no t been p a r t i c u l a r l y a c t i v e , b u t were known a s c i v i c l e a d e r s , e t c e t e r a . The mas t e r c o m m i t t e e ,

#/I Th is symbol i n d i c a t e s t h a t a t a p e o r a segment of a t a p e has begun o r ended. For a gu ide t o t h e t ape s s e e page 58.

Luce: s o t o speak, was i n Los Angeles and t h a t was cha i red by, co- i n c i d e n t a l l y , William French Smith who is now a t t o r n e y gene ra l . He was a lawyer a t t he time and had been asked by ~ove . rno r Reagan t o he lp ge t t hese subcommittees t o do some r e c r u i t i n g around the s t a t e and then they would b r ing t h e i r information t o t he main committee i n Los Angeles where M r . Smith and a group of approximately twelve people had a s s i s t a n c e wi th computers, a s s i s t a n c e from personnel people, so they could keep a l l o f t h e s e names i n an organized f a sh ion .

We were most ly dea l ing wi th high posi t ions--cabinet p o s i t i o n s , department heads, members of boards--

Morris: This would be be fo re t h e r eo rgan iza t ion . It would be t h e s o r t of across-the-board ope ra t iona l departments?

Luce : Yes. Simultaneously t h e new Reagan s t a f f t h a t he had s e l e c t e d were ope ra t ing and working on i d e a s of conso l ida t ion of va r ious agencies and departments and ana lyz ing what p o s i t i o n s they wished t o f i l l . So t h a t was r e a l l y a s e p a r a t e committee of h i s s t a f f . For i n s t ance , t h e d i r e c t o r of f i nance , which d id n o t have a r eo rgan iza t ion p l an , was s e l e c t e d by t h i s committee and recommended t o Governor Reagan.

Morris: To back up a minute, had you had a chance wi th t h e then- candida te Reagan dur ing t h e campaign t o t a l k about some of t hese ques t ions t h a t l a t e r became p a r t of t h e admin i s t r a t i on?

Luce: During t h e campaign--he s a i d t h i s often--we t a lked about philosophy of government, reducing t h e s i z e and c o s t of government--a bus iness approach t o government was used predominantly a t t h e t ime. I d i d n ' t s p e c i f i c a l l y , t h ink ing t h a t f i r s t of a l l , I would no t be going on t o government. That was n o t my i n t e r e s t . I th ink i t was only the l a s t few weeks of t h a t campaign i n November t h a t some of h i s people ,

were i n San Diego t h a t he s a i d , "We need t o s t a r t t h ink ing about personnel f o r t h e new admin i s t r a t i on . Gordon, you d id a g r e a t job i n San Diego. Why d o n ' t you s t a r t th inking about people and p u t t i n g toge ther a committee and s t a r t t o work. We're going t o need t o r e c r u i t t h e b e s t people."

Morris: Was San Diego a t t h a t t ime, i n '66, a s t r o n g l y Republican county?

Luc e : More so than i t i s now. I c a n ' t remember i f our ma jo r i t y r e g i s t r a t i o n was Republican; i t was c l o s e . Now we're a Democrat r e g i s t r a t i o n ma jo r i t y ; t h a t changed somewhere i n t h e l a s t t e n o r f i f t e e n yea r s . It would be c l o s e . San Diego has a h i s t o r y of vo t ing Republican even though t h e r e a r e more r e g i s t e r e d Democrats than Republicans.

Morris: That i s kind of a be l lwe the r f o r t h e s t a t e then.

Luce: To a degree. We're known t o be more conse rva t ive t han some p a r t s of t h e s t a t e , b u t n o t a s conse rva t ive a s Orange County. I n f a c t , Governor [ J e r r y ] Brown, i n h i s f i r s t e l e c t i o n and poss ib ly i n h i s second, d i d very w e l l i n t h i s county, unusua l ly , because, a s I say , t h e Republicans seem t o do w e l l even though t h e r e ' s a good Democratic r e g i s t r a t i o n .

Morr is : Would he have done w e l l h e r e because of t h e he lp of l o c a l Democrats l i k e Hugo F i she r and James M i l l s ?

Luce: I t h i n k i t was t h a t Brown gave i t more a t t e n t i o n ; came h e r e more o f t e n , spoke more, and recognized t h e importance of San Diego. This is a p r o v i n c i a l community i n a s ense , w i th a l a r g e popula t ion , and t h e more a t t e n t i o n t h e community r ece ives by any candida te , t h e b e t t e r t h e campaign seems t o go.

Morris: Tha t ' s i n t e r e s t i n g ; t o t r y and s e p a r a t e San Diego from t h e mass of Los Angeles?

Luce : Yes. We don ' t l i k e t o b e merged i n t o them a t a l l . I can remember t h e Deukmejian campaign f o r a t t o r n e y gene ra l some yea r s ago: i n t h i s county I t h i n k he came i n second; i n t h e s t a t e he came i n t h i r d o r f o u r t h .

It s o happened t h a t q u i t e a few people i n t h e county l i k e d George, and they s a i d , "Get him down h e r e more o f t en . " And so h e had more p r e s s conferences, more f u n d r a i s e r s , every th ing . It showed up i n t h e e l e c t i o n r e s u l t s . He s p e n t a l o t of time he re . They r e spec t ed t h e f a c t t h a t he cared about San Diego, and they got t o know him.

Morris: So. i n San Diego a persona l campaign works b e t t e r than a media campaign?

Luce: Well, I th ink media i s always impor tan t , b u t a pe r sona l campaign c e r t a i n l y he lps .

Morris: When you were running t h e governor 's campaign h e r e i n t h e county, d i d you t i e it i n c l o s e l y wi th some kind of a mas te r p l an t h a t Spencer-Roberts had developed?

Luce: They had a s t a t ewide plan. I ' m c e r t a i n t h e r e was a manual and meetings and we'd go t o Los Angeles and g e t our i n s t r u c t i o n s , e t c e t e r a . We worked . c lo se ly wi th them, b u t w e tend t o be

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morr i s :

Luce:

Morr i s :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris:

p r e t t y independen t and we'd t a k e a b i t of t h e sugges ted p l a n and t h e n we'd s o r t o f do o u r own t h i n g a l o n g w i t h it. I can remember I e s t a b l i s h e d a committee o f s i x t y - s i x . It was t h e y e a r 1966.

Oh, t h a t ' s a good i d e a .

I thought i t had a l i t t l e z i n g t o i t . I t r i e d t o b a l a n c e t h a t committee s o w e had--05fhand--different peop le from t h e community on it. I t h o u g h t t h a t was--

Businessmen?

Y.es, I had t h e normal businessmen, b u t I had women and some m i n o r i t i e s - - I was t r y i n g t o show t h e broadness o f t h i s campaign. I thought t h a t worked w e l l , t h a t i d e a .

By and l a r g e , d i d you have any r e s i s t a n c e , s a y , from b l a c k p e o p l e whom you approached t o come i n t o t h e Republ ican p a r t y ?

W e have maybe t e n t o f i f t e e n p e r c e n t o f t h e b l a c k v o t e r s who a r e Republ ican, s o I d i d n ' t o v e r s t e p my bounds and t r y t o f i n d a l o t of Democrats f o r t h e campaign. Of c o u r s e , you s ta r t a t t h e pr imary, and t h e p r imary i s Republ icans . Then you t r y t o add a f t e r t h e pr imary some o t h e r s . I d i d have some b l a c k s and they were i d e n t i f i a b l e Republ ican b l a c k p e o p l e . George Walker Smith, t h e head o f o u r board of e d u c a t i o n a few y e a r s ago; h e was o n t h e committee. D r . John Ford was a n o t h e r b l a c k . A young man by t h e name o f Bob Keyes l a t e r worked f o r t h e Governor.

He went i n t o t h e g o v e r n o r ' s o f f i c e , t o o , d i d n ' t he?

Yes. He d i e d some y e a r s ago.

How a b o u t women?

Luce : Q u i t e a few women. 'I t o l d you a b o u t Mrs. Norman R o b e r t s ; t h e y s t a r t e d a t t h e top . Then I had others--Eleanor Ring.

Morr is : Is s h e from San Diego?

Luce : Mrs. Rober ts?

Morris : Eleanor Ring.

Luce : She is from Coronado.

Morris: Is she s t i l l around?

Luce : Yes, Eleanor Ring S t o r r s now.

Morris: I n Coronado? That was my f i r s t acquaintance with t h i s p a r t of t he world.

Luce: That ' s r i g h t .

Morris: Sometime we would l i k e t o t a l k wi th her . She was co-chairman of t h e 1970 campaign.

Luce: That ' s r i g h t ; s h e ' s been involved i n more Republican pa r ty h i s t o r y than a l l [ t he r e s t ] of us put t oge the r .

Morris: Women i n p o l i t i c s is an i n t e r e s t i n g s t o r y because f o r so long they baked the cookies and d i d n ' t have the chairmanships.

Luce: Right. She was a l eade r . She has done everything from baking the cookies t o cha i r ing n a t i o n a l convention platform i s s u e s . She's va luable . M r s . Roberts too; she ' s no t doing p a r t y work anymore, bu t s h e ' s very good. We have--much more than f i f t y percent of our[campaign workers] were women.

Morris: Did you draw from e x i s t i n g Republican organiza t ions?

Luce: I i d e n t i f i e d some c i v i c people because I am a civic-minded person and then we got o t h e r i n t e r e s t e d people too.

Morris: How did you i n t e r e s t people i n a p o l i t i c a l campaign who hadn ' t been i n p o l i t i c s before?

Luce : [ inaudib le phrase] . F i r s t of a l l , we had a very char i smat ic candidate . We had events t h a t I thought were d i f f e r e n t and more i n t e r e s t i n g than some o the r s had done i n the pas t . We had t h e a t r e n igh t s ; we used the c i v i c t h e a t r e he re f o r a show t h a t we wrote. We had a Rotary show, v i s i t i n g gues t s , and t h e candida te came on s t a g e and thanked us a l l . An o r i g i n a l song was w r i t t e n f o r i t i n h i s honor. We so ld t i c k e t s t o a l l those.

You s e e , we weren ' t ashamed t h a t he was an a c t o r . You remember what Governor [Pa t ] Brown s a i d , and i t blew up i n h i s face.* But I th ink we were enl ightened enough t o recognize t h a t

* In a f i l m made f o r h i s 1966 campaign by Charles Guggenheim, Governor Brown was shown t a l k i n g t o school ch i ld ren and saying t h a t .it was an a c t o r who sho t Lincoln.

Luce: an a c t o r might have had more experience i n a c e r t a i n sense-- c e r t a i n a c t i v i t i e s : h i s union work i n L.A. and h i s t r a v e l s and h i s working wi th top l e v e l people and h i s knowledge of what 's going on i n t h e community. So we took advantage of h i s c e l e b r i t y s t a t u s and r a t h e r than apologize f o r i t , we u t i l i z e d i t , c e r t a i n l y [ inaud ib l e phrase] .

But t h e r e were o t h e r people who d i d n ' t want an a c t o r f o r governor, so w e t r i e d t o h i t t h a t head on. I f you ' re going t o break it o u t , l e t ' s t a l k about t h a t : why n o t an a c t o r f o r governor a s we l l as a mayor from San Francisco? L e t ' s j u s t g e t down t o t h e b r a s s t acks . The mayor may be more o r i e n t e d toward t h a t c i t y , which is f i n e f o r San Franc isco , b u t l e t ' s t a l k about o t h e r c i t i e s . We had an a c t o r who is hones t , works hard , covered t h e country i n many ways, very knowledgeable i n l a b o r a c t i v i t i e s and i n working wi th people and bus iness , and very a r t i c u l a t e , wi th new ideas and very communicative. These a r e t h ings t h a t i n t h e '70s, end of t h e ' 6 0 s , t h a t we've got t o s t a r t t h ink ing about.

But we had a l o t of d i f f e r e n t kinds of events . We had a mobile van. We had some s i x t y o r seventy young w i v e s t h a t would t ake t h a t van t o shopping c e n t e r s t o d i s t r i b u t e l i t e r a t u r e ; "mobile maids" they c a l l e d themselves.

Morris: Oh, t h a t ' s an i n t e r e s t i n g i d e a , a l l decked ou t .

Luce: - It w a s g r e a t fun!

Morris: Somebody donated a van?

Luce: Yes, and they 'd g ive o u t bumper s t r i p s . . So r a t h e r than expec t ing everyone t o come down t o t h e [ c e n t r a l ] headquar te rs , they 'd go o u t t o t h e shopping c e n t e r on Saturday and have music p lay ing and g ive o u t l i t e r a t u r e . They would a l l have on h a t s and th ings , s o r t of a costume, i n a way t o [ l i v e n th ings up] .

Morris: Did you have somebody from San ~ i e ~ o who was a p ro fe s s iona l i n campaigns t o h e l p c r e a t e t hese i d e a s and coord ina te them?

Luce: Not r e a l l y . I th ink we o r i g i n a t e d most of t hese ideas . A t one t i m e we had a p ro fe s s iona l h e r e named Bob Walker who l e d t h e Republican Assoc ia tes , worked i n Sacramento. He was a very good p o l i t i c a l pro. He was i n and o u t of San Diego and very p ro fe s s iona l .

H e wasn ' t based h e r e i n San Diego? Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce:

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

A t one t i m e he was, w i th Republican Assoc ia tes . H e wasn ' t based h e r e w i th Ronald Reagan.

I ' v e heard of t h e company spoken o f before . It s t a r t e d h e r e i n San Diego?

Republican Assoc ia tes s t a r t e d he re , yes .

It is confusing s i n c e t h e r e i s - a l s o t h e C a l i f o r n i a Republican Assembly, and t h a t ' s a vo lun tee r o rgan iza t ion . Did you make use of them o r w a s t h a t a good enough o rgan iza t ion i n t h i s a r e a ?

They were very conse rva t ive and had an i n t e r e s t i n Reagan. They a l s o had an i n t e r e s t i n t h e i r own candida tes running f o r t h e l e g i s l a t u r e and a l l , s o they spen t a l i t t l e more of t h e i r t ime doing t h e i r own cand ida t e s ' ope ra t i ons . But they a l s o supported Reagan and w e r e very h e l p f u l . They weren ' t a s t r o n g chap te r ; i t wasn ' t a l a r g e chap te r h e r e of t h e CRA. Some of those people d i d come i n and he lp . The door was always open. We asked everyone t o come i n and h e l p .

Earlier, i n t h e state Republican. p a r t y t h e r e had been some s t r u g g l e s between--

CRA and UROC.

And a l l o f those . Did t h a t have an impact down he re?

We d i d n ' t have any s t r u g g l e s i n t h a t s ense . We had ou r s t r u g g l e s , b u t n o t among those groups.

Not w i t h i n t h e Republican p a r t y ?

No.

Recommending and Rec ru i t i ng Appointees

Morris: Did many of t h e people who worked wi th you on t h e campaign t u r n o u t t o be people t h a t you thought might be r e c r u i t e d i n t o s tate government?

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Not n e c e s s a r i l y , no, because so many were not i n t e r e s t e d i n s t a t e government. I n f a c t , they r e sen ted , quote, bureaucracy, pub l i c se rvan t s , e t c e t e r a . People wanted a change i n government, they wanted government t o "get o f f t h e i r backs," bu t were no t seeking a p o s i t i o n i n government. They d i d n ' t want t o l e a v e t h e i r f ami l i e s o r i n some cases j u s t d id no t want a pos t . They wanted t o be a c t i v e suppor t e r s , wished us we l l , b u t they r e a l l y d i d n ' t want a job. So I would say t h e major i ty of t h e [campaign] committee d id no t ask f o r o r seek o r want p o s i t i o n s , inc luding mybelf. I w a s r e a l l y d r a f t e d ; because I was very content and happy wi th what I was doing.

Were you wi th the--did t h e San Diego Federal e x i s t then o r was i t acquired?

No, I was wi th another savings and loan c a l l e d Home Federal Savings. I was s e n i o r v i c e p res iden t of Home Federal Savings and doing t h i s a s a volunteer . I l i k e d my job and so I was n o t i n t e r e s t e d i n gaing up t o Sacramento,although I w a s asked by Governor Reagan, some of h i s people, t o do so.

Was i t the Governor himself o r t h i s o v e r a l l committee t h a t William French Smith was chairman o f ?

The Governor asked me, bu t t h a t committee must have proposed i t . I don ' t know because they d i d n ' t approach me when I was the re . I received a c a l l from t h e Governor asking me i f I would l i k e to be s e c r e t a r y of t r anspor t a t ion . That w a s be fo re they made the dec is ion . I accepted. But I f igu red t h a t some of t h e people on the screening committee had suggested me.

Did they kind of review t h e whole bunch of names t h a t came up from a l l over the s t a t e ?

Yes, they d id . They were reviewing l o t s of names, l o t s of people on whom they had f i l e s . So t h a t ' s why they needed t h e i r computer [ f o r personnel a n a l y s i s ] . Who was the personnel f i rm t h a t they c a l l e d on?

I don ' t know who i t was. I don ' t remember. M r . Smith would know; they were ou t of Los Angeles.

It would be i n t e r e s t i n g t o t a l k t o them and s e e i f t h i s was an i n i t i a l experiment i n using head-hunting methods t o s t a f f - -

Luce : Smith would be one person t o t a l k t o ; another is Holmes T u t t l e who is s t i l l one of t h e P r e s i d e n t ' s c l o s e s t f r i e n d s . He was involved i n t h a t .

Morris: We'll be on t h i s p r o j e c t f o r a couple of yea r s and we hope i n t h a t time t h a t people w i l l hea r what we're doing and pass t h e word. W e hope t h a t t h e y ' l l be comfortable t a l k i n g wi th us because i t is important t o g e t a l l of t hese viewpoints .

/

I1 BUSINESS AND TRANSPORTATION AGENCY SECRETARY

Organiza t ion and S.taf f i n g

Morris: So you accepted t h e s e c r e t a r y s h i p t o go up t h e r e wi th t h e f i r s t wave.

Luce : Yes, I s t a r t e d January 1 of 1967.

Morris: Was t h e r e any kind of o r i e n t a t i o n f o r you o r p r epa ra t i on f o r what would be going on?

Luce: W e had some b r i e f i n g s i n t h e governor 's o f f i c e from some of h i s people on what t o expec t , r o l e , e t c e t e r a . But my agency had n o t had a s much focus . They had been spending a g r e a t d e a l of t h e i r t i m e w i th t h i s p r o j e c t , t h e budget, which comes f i r s t , and then wi th some of t h e o t h e r a r e a s o f concern which w e r e r e a l l y more on t h e f i r i n g l i n e a t t h e beginning--welfare, educa t ion , c o s t and s i z e of government. So I d o n ' t t h ink too many people had thought too much about t r a n s p o r t a t i o n .

So when I a r r i v e d , had been asked t o go up, I s a i d , ''I r e a l l y want t o see a combination of bus iness and t r a n s p o r t a t i o n because t h a t ' s 9 i n t e r e s t p u r s u i t . I t h i n k they work t o g e t h e r , and I know you a r e t r y i n g ' t o conso l ida t e . I th ink i t would be a n a t u r a l t h i n g t o conso l ida t e , because t h e bus iness department of t h e s t a t e of C a l i f o r n i a i s very s m a l l . ' ' They had t h e i r own budget, funded by each indus t ry , s o t o speak.

Morris : These a r e t h e regulatory--?

Luce: Regulatory agencies. . There was a s e p a r a t e investment board w i th t h e s e agenc ies "hanging o u t there" somewhere.

I s a i d , " I f you pu t t h i s i n t r a n s p o r t a t i o n , n o t t h a t bus ines s and t r a n s p o r t a t i o n are i d e n t i c a l , b u t i f you a r e going

Luce :

Morris :

. -

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

t o c o n s o l i d a t e , t h e s e complement one ano ther . " They d o n ' t have enough i n t e r a c t i o n . Obviously, banking and highways is n o t a n i n t e r a c t i o n p a r t i c u l a r l y , b u t it f i t s b e t t e r t h a n i t would w i t h w e l f a r e o r e d u c a t i o n o r something l i k e t h a t . So l e t ' s g e t t h e s e o v e r h e r e t o g e t h e r and s a v e o u r s e l v e s a n o t h e r agency and s o f o r t h and s o on. They a c c e p t e d t h i s , a f t e r going through t h e i r p l a n n i n g commission--they had a r e s t r u c t u r i n g group under Cap Weinberger.

Oh, t h e r e was a commission on s ta te government and e f f i c i e n c y . Task f o r c e was t h e term t h a t was used.

- - .- - . .- - T h i s was t h e L i t t l e Hoover omm mission.* Weinberger d i d q u i t e a b i t of i t as a v o l u n t e e r h e l p e r a t t h a t t i m e , b e f o r e h e jo ined- t h e s ta te government a y e a r la ter as f i n a n c e d i r e c t o r . But t h e f i r s t y e a r h e came up and he lped s t r u c t u r e . H e was do ing some of t h i s s i n c e h e had been i n t h e assembly. H e and h i s committee knew more about t h e p a s t , t h e h i s t o r y , and would t h e s e t h i n g s go t o g e t h e r o r n o t . Some of t h i s work was done by B i l l C l a r k , t h e c a b i n e t s e c r e t a r y .

- - - - - - - - - -

Weinberger had done some work, t o o , I b e l i e v e on government o r g a n i z a t i o n i n terms o f . s e t t i n g up t h e f i r s t w a t e r depar tment and h e was i n t h e b a t t l e t o r e o r g a n i z e t h e l i q u o r l i c e n s i n g . So h e was t h a t k i n d o f an a d m i n i s t r a t o r .

Y e s . So when we were s o r t o f p u t t i n g t h e s e t o g e t h e r , I knew t h a t h e was i n t h a t , n o t a n a r c h i t e c t s o much as - - th i s was b e i n g passed by h i s committee. My i d e a s were be ing judged by h i s committee; they were [working on] how. t o do t h i s , what t h e s t r u c t u r e would be i n t h e b i l l . They were do ing t h a t w i t h a l l t h e s e a g e n c i e s b a s i c a l l y .

P a t Brown made a c o u p l e of s t e p s i n ' t h i s d i r e c t i o n .

Y e s , d e f i n i t e l y . H e had c r e a t e d what t h e y c a l l e d s u p e r a g e n c i e s and t h i s was r e f i n i n g them even more.

* See Caspar W. Weinberger i n San F r a n c i s c o Republ icans , Regional Oral H i s t o r y O f f i c e , Berkeley, 1980; a l s o , r e p o r t s o f t h e Commission on C a l i f o r n i a S t a t e Government O r g a n i z a t i o n and Economy.

Morris: I n those f i r s t months i n Sacramento, d i d you i n essence f i n d o u t what went on i n your a r e a from t h e c i v i l s e r v i c e a r e a ?

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Elorris :

Luce :

Once I took over my o f f i c e , w e had a l l k inds of b r i e f i n g se s s ions by people i n t h e agencies and t h e departments, t h e Publ ic Works Department. The Pub l i c Works Department dominated my agency. My o f f i c e was r i g h t next door t o i t ; i t w a s t h e b i g g e s t p a r t of t h e budget, wi th very knowledgeable people. So I got a g r e a t d e a l of he lp i n b r i e f i n g s . P lus I had a l e t t e r of good luck from t h e p a s t admin i s t r a to r of t r a n s p o r t a t i o n , M r . [Robert B.] Bradford, and I c a l l e d on him f o r information.

What kind of advice d i d he have t o o f f e r ?

He w a s very h ~ l p f u l . He was more of a t r a n s p o r t a t i o n execut ive . He was what you would c a l l a cza r . It w a s a very l a r g e agency t o t r y and f i t bus iness i n t o ; i t was very important--highways. He f e l t suppor t ive of what had been done i n t r a n s p o r t a t i o n , and I t h i n k he wanted t o encourage m e t o cont inue h i s programs and some of t h e people who were very t a l e n t e d i n t h e agency, which they were, and he had a g r e a t d e a l of r e s p e c t f o r t h ings they had done. That kind of th ing .

Who p a r t i c u l a r l y d i d you yourse l f f i n d h e l p f u l i n t h e agency?

Well, M r . Emerson Rhyner [ s p e l l s name] now r e t i r e d . He was an a t t o r n e y t o t h e d i v i s i o n of c o n t r a c t s and r i g h t s of way; I found him extremely h e l p f u l . And M r . Sandstrom, a young a t t o r n e y in, t h e department who is now wi th me he re , and who came i n a s one of my deputy s e c r e t a r i e s .

You brought him wi th you?

With me back t o t h i s bus iness , b u t I found him i n Sacramento i n t h e Publ ic Works Department. Then h e came i n t o t h e agency t o be one of my two depu t i e s f o r t h e t h r e e y e a r s t h a t I was the re .

A s a t t o r n e y s , were they provid ing l e g a l counsel?

Some; some o p e r a t i o n a l ; some background t o t h e department. But a s I say , I s o r t of adopted those two because I l i k e d t h e l e g a l mind. I th ink t h a t was very h e l p f u l ; they seemed t o be o r i e n t e d more toward my philosophy, which is what I was seeking.

Luce: I wanted i n t h i s p o s i t i o n t o develop t h e changes needed i n s t a t e government(and t h a t included a l l agenc ie s ) , and I wanted t o proceed i n a very o r d e r l y and balanced fash ion . I d i d n ' t want i n any way t o i n t e r f e r e o r h u r t any of t h e good programs t h a t C a l i f o r n i a had i n t r anspor t a t ion . Yet I f e l t a prime need f o r , f i r s t of a l l , cos t - cu t t i ng and e f f i c i e n c y and improvements i n t h a t way; t h e o rgan iza t iona l kind of t h ings . Then l a t e r on we developed i n t o balanced t ranspor ta t ion- -a t l e a s t an a t tempt t o b r ing balance t o t he t r a n s p o r t a t i o n scene i n ~ a l i f o r n i a .

I had q u i t e a few people from t h e Highway Commission, s t a f f people. Some of t h e o t h e r departments w e had, t h e Department of Motor Vehicles , t h e Highway P a t r o l , i t w a s more of an admin i s t r a t i ve , o p e r a t i o n a l , budget kind of func t ion t h a t I had wi th them. I wasn ' t t r y i n g t o make any r e a l changes the re . I w a s t r y i n g t o improve t h e i r e f f i c i e n c y . So I spent a g r e a t d e a l of time i n t h e beginning wi th t h e Publ ic Works Department, which is t h e highway department. I had an e x c e l l e n t deputy i n J i m Schmidt from San Diego. I was chairman of t h e C a l i f o r n i a Highway Commission by--

Morris: Ex-officio?

Luce: No, I was chairman by l e g i s l a t i v e a c t i o n , which we changed about a year a f t e r I w a s t h e r e because it j u s t seemed t o me t h a t running these departments a s admin i s t r a to r , you should n o t a l s o be t h e chairman of t h e Highway Commission, which takes a g r e a t d e a l of time. That should be somebody e l s e ' s r e s p o n s i b i l i t y . So the l e g i s l a t u r e d i d change i t about a y e a r , l a t e r , bu t a t t h e t ime I came i n as s e c r e t a r y of t r a n s p o r t a t i o n I was a l s o au tomat ica l ly t he chairman of t h e C a l i f o r n i a Highway Commission.

Morris: That ' s an i n t e r e s t i n g su rv ivo r , I guess, from e a r l i e r t imes.

Luce : Yes.

Morris : Hold on a minute, l e t me t u r n over t h e tape . ##

Who from t h e Highway Commission do you r e c a l l as being p a r t i c u l a r l y i n f l u e n t i a l i n t h e way t h e commission operated? We've never r e a l l y t a lked wi th anybody from that--

Luce: I had good s t a f f . We had a fu l l - t ime s t a f f and they were very good people, who s t a f f e d t h e Highway Commission. Jack--I c a n ' t remember h i s las t name now. He was Rhyner's a s s i s t a n t counsel ; he d id some work f o r us . There was a group of people, some remained from t h e p a s t admin i s t r a t i on , some were brought

Luce: i n by Governor Reagan. I c a n ' t remember some of those names. Then we appointed a new Publ ic Works d i r e c t o r la t 'er on down t h e line--we had t h e hold-over Publ ic Works d i r e c t o r , [John] Erreca, f o r about s i x months. Then we brought i n our own, M r . [Samuel B-. J Nelson and then even tua l ly M r . [James] Moe [formerly deputy d i r e c t o r ] , and they helped me wi th Highway Commission ma t t e r s .

Businessmen i n Government

Morris : One of t h e most i n t e r e s t i n g ques t ions I th ink is t h i s bus iness of t h e businessman i n government. What was your r e a c t i o n from a businessman's p o i n t of view t o how government operated when you found your se l f on t h e in s ide?

Luc e : Well, f r u s t r a t i o n ; n i c e people t o work wi th , t a l e n t e d people t o work wi th , b u t a whole d i f f e r e n t mentality--nine-to-five o r whatever you want t o c a l l i t these days menta l i ty : "I can only go s o h igh; t h e r e f o r e , I might as w e l l goof o f f Fr iday af te rnoon and go t o Lake Tahoe f o r two days and a h a l f . My pay s c a l e won't change t h a t much because i t is a l l s e t by t h e Personnel Board. "

Here you a r e looking a t t a l e n t e d people, b u t somehow i n my mind [ they] a r e s o l d s h o r t i n terms of doing a s u p e r i o r job. I n a p l easan t l i f e , p l ea san t a r e a t o be . Secu r i ty : t h e r e can no t b e a change whenever an admin i s t r a t i on comes and goes. Some were. very h e l p f u l t o me. Some were n o t , b u t t h e major i ty were. But, i n a s ense , I d i d n ' t f e e l t h a t c a r e e r came f i r s t wi th them, and I th ink t o accomplish i n t h e a r e a of p u b l i c s e r v i c e your ca ree r has t o b e very , very important t o you. You have t o put i n e x t r a hours and e x t r a thought and e x t r a p roduc t iv i ty and i n c e n t i v e t o make you r e a l l y produce more.

Morris: Are you saying t h a t you f e l t t h a t some of t h e s e n i o r c i v i l s e r v a n t s s o l d themselves s h o r t ?

Luce: Yes, which was i n t e r e s t i n g , because I had been used t o more of the. bus iness world where people a r e more ambit ious, wanting t o grow more va luable and a r e seeking ways, more ideas t o do t h a t and grow. Whatever t hese th ings a r e t h a t make people move forward i n bus iness was no t a s ev ident i n t h e pub l i c s e c t o r .

Morris : That ' s i n t e r e s t i n g from your banking background because, t o many people, t h e image of banking is t h a t t h e r e a r e an awful l o t of r o u t i n e jobs and an awful l o t of people spend an awful l o t of time--

Luce: Not s o much i n a smal le r banking company. The l a r g e r i t is , t h e more i t becomes bureaucracy and is s i m i l a r t o a governmental p o s i t i o n , yes .

Morris: Is t h e r e a po in t a t which they become s i m i l a r ?

Luce : I don ' t know. I ' v e never worked i n one t h a t l a r g e , b u t I would suspec t t h a t working i n a u t i l i t y o r i n a l a r g e bank o r a l a r g e corpora t ion , you begin t o f e e l t h e same t h i n g t h a t you might i n p u b l i c s e r v i c e , where you r i s k being j u s t a number.

Morris: Did you have any thoughts of t r y i n g t o adapt some of t h e methods t h a t you used i n p r i v a t e bus iness t o t h e way you r a n t h e agency?

Luce: Yes, we d i d .

Morris : What kinds of th ings?

Luce : We c a l l e d i n consu l t an t s . McKinsey Company, f o r i n s t a n c e , i n San Francisco, gave us very good advice . The Governor, a s you know, appointed a b lue r ibbon 400-person reorganize- government t a sk f o r c e . Some very f i n e execut ives were assigned t o some of our departments. They examined these departments f o r s i x months and came up wi th new ideas on how we could save money and how we could r eo rgan ize and how we could conso l ida t e . They would meet w i th me on some of t hese ideas and t h a t was extremely h e l p f u l . My agency was about f i v e o r s i x people.

Morris : I n t h e d i r e c t o r ' s o f f i c e ?

Luce: I n t h e Business and Transpor ta t ion Agency d i r e c t o r ' s o f f i c e . I could have two depu t i e s . I th ink I f i n a l l y had t h r e e depu t i e s , t h r e e s e c r e t a r i e s . Then I could reach o u t and use f o r s p e c i a l p r o j e c t s someone out of t h e Highway P a t r o l , f o r i n s t ance , i f we were going t o do a s p e c i a l s tudy on highway s a f e t y ; I had some people l i k e t h a t who could he lp me.

Morris : Were these volunteer r e c r u i t s from bus iness?

Luce: That I had i n my o f f i c e ?

Morris: No, i n t h e ones t h a t came in--

Luce : Yes, those were volunteers : s i x months s e n t by t h e i r . company. Now, t h a t ' s a very famous p a r t of t h e whole Reagan admin i s t r a t i on .

Morris: How. would I go about g e t t i n g a hand le . on i t ? Was t h e r e somebody i n charge of t h a t ? I haven ' t y e t found t h e l i s t .

Luce: The people t h a t r e a l l y know more about t h a t a r e now i n Washington wi th Governor Reagan and t h e man who was head of i t , out of P r i c e Waterhouse [and Company] is now dead. He was an o l d e r man from P r i c e Waterhouse who came a s a vo lun tee r . They began t o g e t t h e s e companies--U.S. S t e e l s e n t a person, Standard O i l s e n t a person, and t h e r e was a b l ack who was wi th P a c i f i c Tel[ephone Company] i n San Francisco; he was a member of t h i s . There were four hundred of t hese people. The companies con t r ibu ted t h e i r s e r v i c e s . They were extremely h e l p f u l .

Morris: J u s t wi th t h e r e c r u i t i n g . of those folks--

Luce : It was i n c r e d i b l e . Of course, t h e f i r s t t h i n g t h e p re s s wanted t o t a l k about was wouldn ' t t h e r e b e a c o n f l i c t ? Here we had waited a l l our l i v e s t o have people vo lun tee r t o h e l p government a t no taxpayers ' expense, t o b r i n g top l e v e l expert ise--give i t s i x months and l i v e our of apartments and h o t e l rooms--

Morris: [ laughs] The housing problem i n Sacramento must have been f i e r c e !

Luce: It was f i e r c e anyhow. Then, of course, you had t o t r y t o a s s i g n people s o they weren ' t exac t ly examining a department t h a t t h e i r company might have . some bus iness wi th some day. You're going t o avoid t h a t . But t h a t was avoided p r e t t y w e l l . I n t h e s i x months I don ' t t h ink t h e r e was any charge r e a l l y made of anything l i k e t h a t . But t h a t was aga in another problem, because t h e press was say ing what w i l l you do i f you ' r e l i k e Standard Oi l - - they ' l l a l l b e f o r smog, t h e y ' l l a l low smog and they won l t . do anything about i t . So anyhow, t h a t was overcome, b u t t h i s was an i n c r e d i b l e t h ing .

Morris: Did those fe l lows ever have a reunion?

Luce: I th ink Qhey used t o do t h a t .

Morris: It would be i n t e r e s t i n g to--the same ques t ion I asked you, whether they came because they had some i n t e r e s t i n government o r whether, a f t e r they had' spen t s i x months s i t t i n g a t your elbow, they then continued j u s t a s c i t i z e n s o r businessmen t o be i n t e r e s t e d in--

Luce : I th ink i t was a combination of f a c t o r s . I th ink i t was s o r t of a c u r i o s i t y and i n t e r e s t i n government, and a bus iness person has t h a t c u r i o s i t y and i n t e r e s t . But a bus iness person a l s o has l i t t l e oppor tuni ty t o explore t h a t , so t h i s was a way t o go ou t t h e r e and experience a b i t of government and f e r r e t out-- I th ink they were dedica ted people who r e a l l y wanted t o h e l p and i t was Reagan who s e t t h i s scene. He got them t o come up and s a i d I r e a l l y need your he lp .

Morris: Did they tend t o be younger people from middle management?

Luce: Middle-aged, I would say . No, some were from s e n i o r l e v e l , t h e ones t h a t I worked wi th . Now, they had q u i t e a few teams, s o I d i d n ' t meet them a l l . A l o t of them t h a t I met were s e n i o r l e v e l people. They might n o t be t h e p re s iden t of t h e company, b u t they would be t h i r d o r fou r th from t h a t . They came from a l l over C a l i f o r n i a , many from San Francisco--

Morris: That sounds l i k e Caspar Weinberger might have had--*

Luce: He was a l r eady doing t h a t kind of t h ing f o r Reagan. He brought t h a t kind of person i n t o government.

Morris: Is your impression t h a t he was very much a p a r t of a l l of t h i s t h a t was going on?

Luce: Weinberger? Yes, very much so . He would come i n a t l e a s t every week o r so t o t h e cabine t s e c r e t a r y ' s o f f i c e and d i scuss what was developing.

Morris: You mentioned t h e two a t to rneys i n your agency t h a t you enjoyed. [ i naud ib l e passage]

Luce: There a r e a l l kinds of a t t o r n e y s . I was--at l e a s t I f e l t was-- more of t he o rgan iza t iona l , admin i s t r a t i ve type and t h e r e f o r e , in-house I wanted t h e i ssue-or ien ted type.

* See a l s o in t e rv i ew wi th Jaque l in Hume i n t h i s s e r i e s .

Morris: Within your own agency? [ inaud ib l e passage]

Luce : Yes. We were ba lanc ing our agency with d i f f e r e n t kinds of people. I th ink i t ' s t e r r i b l y important .

Morris : I was th ink ing about M r . Weinberger i n p a r t i c u l a r .

Luce: He has a d m i n i s t r a t i v e a b i l i t i e s a s w e l l a s l e g a l .

Morris: Is i t an i n t e r e s t i n design?

Luce : That h e has?

Morris : Y e s , can you des ign a system t h a t works b e t t e r ?

Luce: H e has a g r e a t i n t e r e s t i n government and how i t works a s a system.

Seeking Economy and Ef f i c i ency

Morris: A t t h a t po in t was systems a n a l y s i s a common concept i n t h e bus iness world?

Luce: Yes, we had systems a n a l y s i s , we were i n t e r e s t e d i n t h a t f i e l d . I n c o s t accounting and zero budget ing and a l l t h e s e kinds of th ings .

Morris: Are they s t i l l i n common use i n t h e bus iness world?

Luce : Various concepts i n var ious s t a g e s . Morris: Did they work i n Sacramento?

Luce: This t a s k f o r c e t h a t I was t a l k i n g about e a r l i e r , t h e 400-person t a s k f o r c e , came up wi th an.immense r e p o r t and t h a t had a l l kinds of i deas . Some were implemented, some were no t , b u t you were asked t o come back with a s many ideas a s you could. [ i naud ib l e phrase] .

Morris: Was i t M r . [Ned] Hutchinson who was i n charge of t h e fo l low through on t h a t ?

Luce : Yes.

Morris: I have done some work, t r y i n g t o ge t a n overview, i n t h e papers a t Hoover and t o me i t looked l i k e a s t a r t l i n g amount of follow-up was done, l i k e you got a l i s t every couple of weeks--

Luce : Yes, t h a t ' s r i g h t .

Morris: --Asking f o r percentage breakdown [of d i s p o s i t i o n of recommenda- t i o n s ] and th ings l i k e t h a t . Was t h a t an e f f e c t i v e t o o l f o r g e t t i n g t h e recommendations accomplished?

Luce : Yes.

Morris: To have somebody r i d i n g herd on you and t h a t s o r t of th ing?

Luce: Yes, i t c e r t a i n l y was. You tend t o go o f f and do your own th ing , b u t every th ing was pu l l ed toge the r i n t h i s r e p o r t .

Morris: Was t h i s a s u b j e c t a t t he cab ine t meetings?

Luce : Yes, sometimes i t w a s , d e f i n i t e l y ; c e r t a i n major i s s u e s would be brought up a t t he cab ine t : savings of x number of people and x number of d o l l a r s could be accomplished i f you d id t h i s o r t h i s .

Morris: There were hundreds and hundreds o v e r a l l of recommendations. Did t h e time and e f f o r t t o implement t h e recommendations ba lance ou t wi th t h e kind of sav ings and s t r eaml in ing t h a t were poss ib l e?

Luce : Yes, I th ink we had a l l hoped f o r l a r g e amounts of savings-- b i l l i o n s of d o l l a r s sometimes i n t h e f e d e r a l government and c e r t a i n l y mi l l i ons i n t he s t a t e And t h e r e were mi l l i ons of d o l l a r s [saved.]. But you never have enough. [ laughs] Af t e r t h a t r e p o r t , t h a t was a s t imulus t o our own t a s k fo rces and our own agency people t o keep " the h e a t on." We'd look i n t o ways, and t h a t ' s why we had consu l t an t s i n a f t e r t h a t . So o t h e r s t e p s were taken a f t e r t h i s s t a r t e r . It wasn ' t a cu re -a l l , b u t i t was a good s t a r t .

It was a very. good personal r e l a t i o n s h i p f o r a l l of us because we could have l o s t our focus e a s i l y wi th the headiness of be ing a new government s e c r e t a r y , e t c e t e r a ; and everyone rush ing i n with t h e i r programs; and p r e t t y soon you ' re being

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce:

Morris :

Luce :

o s c i l l a t e d o r whatever you want t o c a l l i t by cons t i t uenc ie s o u t t h e r e , whether they were t h e t ruck ing indus t ry o r whether i t be t h e au to indus t ry . You might g e t on t h a t and s t a r t b u i l d i n g more and spending more taxpayers ' money. A l o t of people have done i t .

So once i n a wh i l e someone has t o s t o p and say , "Let ' s s e e , now, l e t ' s g e t t h i s t h ing reorganized and s e e where we a r e , and then go forward. We're no t doing i t today i n C a l i f o r n i a t r anspor t a t ion . " My i d e a was l e t ' s s t a r t f i r s t wi th g e t t h e shop organized and g e t t h i s house i n shape, which has t o b e done i n any bus ines s , and then l e t ' s s t a r t t h ink ing of t h e dreamier th ings t h a t can happen i n Ca l i fo rn i a , which C a l i f o r n i a has t o have. So they ' r e both important , b u t we have t o do t h i s f i r s t , be fo re we ' re going t o s t a r t working on some of t h e s e o t h e r a r e a s .

Was t h a t M r . Reagan's f e e l i n g on i t , too?

Well, I thought i t was. I i n t e r p r e t e d i t a s t h a t and some agencies had d i f f e r e n t problems.

But what you ' r e t r y i n g t o do is g e t a handle on where you a r e and g e t c o s t s under c o n t r o l ?

Yes, exac t ly .

That ' s t h e b a s i s f o r then your future--

Yes, and I wanted t o be somewhat f r u g a l because t h a t ' s t h e way I am, and I r e a l l y f e l t a need; as h e d id . He agreed t h a t C a l i f o r n i a needed planning f o r t h e f u t u r e and f o r a balanced approach i n t h e f u t u r e . We had come o f f a completely dominating highway program i n b u i l d i n g freeways and highways, which is--it's probably j u s t a s w e l l we d id i t under Fa ther Brown, because Jun io r has s topped i t completely, and t h a t ' s n o t balanced e i t h e r .

So we had t h e two extremes i n t h e two Brown admin i s t r a t i ons . We were r i g h t i n t h e middle t h e r e . We went so f a r a s t o say , I' This i s a good program, b u t l e t ' s s e e i f we can develop some balanced approaches . I ' I th ink we were s u c c e s s f u l i n our program. Some of our work has been destroyed by M s . [Adrianne] Gianturco and some o the r s t h a t j u s t couldn' t b r i n g themselves t o do anything--I don' t th ink we have progressed ,

as r ap id ly a s we should have; I r e a l l y t h ink we have a gaso l ine t a x f o r a purpose, and t h e purpose was t o improve t r a n s p o r t a t i o n f o r t he people of Ca l i fo rn i a . Now we've l o s t some of ou r money from the. f e d e r a l government i n some cases and some through mismanagement .

Morris: Was t h e r e a major s h i f t i n terms of your a c t i v i t i e s when the r eo rgan iza t ion went i n t o e f f e c t ? [And t h e Business and Transpor ta t ion Agency was c rea t ed combining t h e e x i s t i n g Business and Commerce and Highway Transpor ta t ion agencies ]

Luce: Af t e r i t was approved by t h e l e g i s l a t u r e , then I took a g r e a t e r i n t e r e s t i n t h e bus iness p a r t . But t he r egu la to ry agencies , i f we had a good r e g u l a t o r i n charge, took c a r e of themselves. We coordinated them, had meetings wi th them--talked about t h e i r budget, t a lked about t h e i r goa ls . But i f they were doing t h e i r job, you l e t them do t h e i r job. We had a minimum of problems i n those years s o f a r a s t h e r egu la to ry agencies . So I would say t h a t seventy percent of my time was spen t i n t r a n s p o r t a t i o n , f i f t e e n percent i n bus iness and f i f t e e n percent i n t h e bus iness a f f a i r s of t h e agency.

I11 THE GOVERNOR'S CABINET

Agency and Governor's Of f i ce I n t e r a c t i o n

Morris: Okay, how about i n t h e o v e r a l l a spec t of being p a r t of t h e governor's c a b i n e t : did t h a t s o r t of r eo rgan iza t ion mean t h a t t h e r e were four of you p lus f inance , p lus some of the immediate governor 's o f f i c e people?

Luce: Yes.

Morris: Did t h a t make ' i t a d i f f e r e n t kind of working r e l a t i o n s h i p between t h e cab ine t then and the Governor?

Luce: Do you mean af te r - -

Morris: A f t e r t h e reorganiza t ion .

Luce: We conducted ourse lves a s i f we had been reorganized, b u t they made i t o f f i c i a l , t h e l e g i s l a t u r e . But we s t a r t e d e a r l y i n 1967 with t h i s plan. We operated i t and then, of course, i t was made o f f i c i a l by the l e g i s l a t u r e around the end of t h e f i r s t term of the Reagan admin i s t r a t ion . But we conducted ourse lves t h a t way anyway. So we have a b a s i c cab ine t s t r u c t u r e .

Morris: Even a t t he beginning?

Luce : Yes. . .

Morris: I ' v e heard desc r ip t ions t h a t e a r l y on t h e r e were meetings of e ighty and n ine ty people,of a l l of t h e department d i r e c t o r s .

Luce : Now, t h a t ' s d i f f e r e n t . That ' s t he governor's counci l . That was l e f t over from t h e p a s t admin i s t r a t ion . We'd meet once a month wi th a l l of t he department heads. I had maybe f i f t e e n o r s i x t e e n governmental agency department heads and they 'd a l l come up t h a t day [of t he counci l meeting] a s we l l a s t h e o t h e r departments.

Morris: Did those meetings cont inue a f t e r t h e reorganiza t ion?

Luce : Yes, they d i d , b u t they 'were mostly communication meetings j u s t t o s e e everybody, b r i n g them t h e r e , and t h e Governor addressed them. But i t was no t a vo t ing group a t a l l .

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

But t h e cab ine t per s e - was a po l i cy group.

Oh y e s , i t w a s a po l i cy group, meeting twice a week o r more.

What k ind of i n t e r a c t i o n is t h e r e between someone l i k e yourse l f working wi th highways and t h e Highway P a t r o l and somebody l i k e Spencer Williams who has got r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r Health and Welfare?

Not too much. There was always i n t e r a c t i o n wi th t h e f inance d i r e c t o r . So t h a t was an important r e l a t i o n s h i p . There was communication i n terms of a l l of t hese i s s u e s t h a t were a f f e c t i n g t h e admin i s t r a t i on . So we d iscussed p r i o r i t i e s , mutual problems, goals of t h e admin i s t r a t i on . But i f Secre ta ry Williams got i n t o a we l f a re problem, I would probably no t be involved because he was more of an exper t i n t h a t f i e l d . But then a s a cabine t member, when t h a t f i n a l l y got t o a vo t ing s t a g e a f t e r we had d iscussed t h e problem and s o l u t i o n s , i f i t sounded a l i t t l e weak t o me, no t knowing t h e e x p e r t i s e and y e t having t h e Governor's goals i n mind, then I would c o n t r i b u t e something. So t h e r e were some i s s u e s t h a t a f f e c t e d s t a t e government a s a whole and then i t was s o r t of a sounding board i n which we worked on o v e r a l l po l i cy .

Was t h e r e any d i s t i n c t i o n between t h e agency s e c r e t a r y people and t h e people i n t h e governor 's o f f i c e s t a f f ? Was t h e r e any d i f f e r e n c e i n t h e viewpoints o r r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s t h e r e ?

Oh yes , and independent viewpoints .

Would t h a t be because you had your own cons t i tuency a s i t were?

Sure, sometimes we knew more about our a r e a than they d i d and d i d n ' t want t o t a l k any more about i t . We were c l o s e r t o c e r t a i n s u b j e c t s . I n my p a r t i c u l a r a r e a , which was l e s s c o n t r o v e r s i a l , I f e l t we a l l thought p r e t t y much t h e same way. I would say some of us were a l i t t l e more adapted t o t h e Governor' philosophy, who had worked wi th him dur ing t h e campaign.

Morris: Some of you i n t h e agency?

Luce: Well, some i n t h e governor 's o f f i c e . I n o t h e r words, I had some empathy wi th some i n t h e governor 's o f f i c e because they 'd t h ink , we've worked i n t h e campaign be fo re we got t h e r e and knew h i s philosophy and understood t h a t b e t t e r maybe than some o t h e r s .

Morris: Wha t h a t you worked wi th i n t h e campaign--?

Luc e : Well, no t so much--I mean many were i n t h e campaign l i k e Tom Reed, t h e d i r e c t o r of personnel--appointments, we c a l l e d them; he was no r the rn chairman [of t h e 1966 Reagan campaign]. B i l l Clark, t h e execut ive s e c r e t a r y , was from t h e Ventura a r e a ; h e was t h e chairman from t h e r e ; people l i k e Ned Hutchinson, from San Mateo, who I ' d known a t Stanford.

Morris: Were you f r i e n d s a t Stanford?

Luce : No, I knew him. I knew h i s s i s t e r , a c t u a l l y .

Morris: Tha t ' s a good connection!

Luce: Right. He's dead now.

Morris : I ' m s o r r y . He sounds l i k e -he was--

Luce : Yes.

Morris: What were h i s p a r t i c u l a r s k i l l s t h a t people speak so h igh ly of him?

Luce : We a l l l i k e d him s o w e l l . He had such a n i c e p e r s o n a l i t y and was very h e l p f u l .

Morris: What was h i s personal t r a i n i n g ?

Luce : I don ' t know. He had been t o Stanford and he came t o t h e Peninsula a r e a and had a g r e a t empathy wi th t h e Reagan philosophy. He worked on appointments, t h i s s o r t of thing--a g e n e r a l i s t .

Morris: Right, d id he come from t h e bus,iness community o r h a d , h e been a doc tor?

Luce : Business community. I th ink r e a l e s t a t e .

Morris: How about some of t h e jun iors a t t h a t t i m e , Ed Meese and Michael Deaver--?

Luce : Yes, t h e y were e x c e l l e n t t o work w i t h .

Morr is : P a u l H a e r l e was t h e r e f o r a w h i l e .

Luce: Yes, h e came i n a f t e r we l e f t , as appointments s e c r e t a r y . He was a n a t t o r n e y from San F r a n c i s c o . Meese, o f c o u r s e , was t h e l e g a l a f f a i r s s e c r e t a r y and h e was o u t s t a n d i n g . Deaver was a s s o c i a t e d c l o s e l y w i t h t h e Reagans.

Morr i s : He was a n a i d e t o M r s . Reagan, t o o ?

Luce: Yes, h e handled a l o t of h e r work from t h e g o v e r n o r ' s o f f i c e , a s w e l l a s t h e g o v e r n o r ' s wo.rk. He a s s i s t e d - b o t h of them. There was s o much s c h e d u l i n g t o do and h e was invo lved i n t h a t ; p r o t o c o l and s c h e d u l i n g and problems, a s w e l l as p o l i c y .

Morr is : Yes, you r a i s e a n i n t e r e s t i n g p o i n t . Th i s is t h e l i s t t h a t Molly S t u r g e s [ T u t h i l l ] h a s k e p t , a s o r t o f "who's on t h e s t a f f and t h e c a b i n e t ."* I d o n ' t s e e a s e c r e t a r y f o r Mrs. Reagan p e r s e . Was s h e not--

Luce: A c t u a l l y , s h e d i d have a s e c r e t a r y . It might have been 'a t t h e res idence--

Morr is : U n r e l a t e d t o t h e o f f i c i a l governor ' s o f f i c e ?

Luce: Yes.

Dea l ing w i t h t h e L e g i s l a t u r e

Morr is : Did you have your o w n . l e g i s l a t i v e a i d e s o r d i d you work through t h e [Governor ' s ] l e g i s l a t i v e a i d e s ?

Luce: No, we had o u r own l e g i s l a t i v e a i d e s i n o u r agency and some of t h a t was c o o r d i n a t e d by t h e l e g i s l a t i v e a i d e s i n t h e governor ' s o f f i c e . We t r i e d t o c o o r d i n a t e o u r s t a n d on a b i l l , o f c o u r s e , w i t h our a i d e s i n t h e o f f i c e , p u b l i c l i a i s o n and c o o r d i n a t i o n . But we had our own peop le who d i d o u r own t e s t i f y i n g on t h e b i l l s and l e g i s l a t i o n .

* I n t h e Reagan Papers a t t h e Hoover I n s t i t u t i o n .

Morris: Would t h a t . g e t a l i t t l e complicated sometimes?

Luce : Once i n a whi le , though aga in my p l an was t o g e t coopera t ion from everyone involved s o we were a l l on t h e same wavelength, s o we had a minimum of cont roversy . That ' s h a l f t h e b a t t l e . Once i n a wh i l e we would ge t i n t o t h e governor 's o f f i c e and h e would explode, when t h e governor 's o f f i c e had taken a s t and on t h a t p a r t i c u l a r l e g i s l a t i o n . /I//

Morris: I understand t h a t t h e r e were d i f f i c u l t i e s between t h e Governor and t h e l e g i s l a t u r e .

Luce: The l e g i s l a t u r e had n o t addressed i t s e l f t o t h i s dynamic, c o n t r o v e r s i a l new governor of t h e s t a t e of Ca l i fo rn i a . He came i n wi th a g r e a t d e a l of support--a mil l ion-vote p l u r a l i t y . Reagan was more than j u s t a government c e l e b r i t y . So t h e r e was enormous demand on h i s time and everyone wanted t o s e e him, be nea r him, t a l k t o him. That bothered o t h e r p o l i t i c i a n s .

Morris: Do you mean t h e people i n Sacramento o t h e r than t h e government workers ?

Luce : Yes, Sacramento. I t was ev iden t ly d u l l t h a t l a s t yea r o r two wi th Governor Brown on h i s way o u t . It was government a s usua l . And h e r e came t h i s new governor, with a m i l l i o n p l u r a l i t y , who wants t o change government, and h e had a l o t of a t t e n t i o n . The p r e s s from a l l over t h e world were coming t o him a l l of t h e time. There were i n v i t a t i o n s t o speak everywhere. So maybe t h a t s t a r t e d i t o f f wrong, because p o l i t i c i a n s a r e envious and they a l l seek a t t e n t i o n , even Republicans and Democrats. So I th ink t h e r e was an awe h e r e and a l i t t l e envy and then, of course, newness--trying t o work toge the r . I t improved. 1 t h ink both s i d e s learned how t o r eac t ' t o one another and t o g e t something accomplished.

You can s e e how Governor Reagan has progressed from our l e a r n i n g experience t o now; h e ' s become very adept i n working wi th Congress i n Washington. He is having cons tan t meetings wi th them, phoning them, and working with them i n a much c l o s e r personal r e l a t i o n s h i p . He l ea rned t h a t i n Sacramento.

Morris: I n '67 and '68, was t h e r e some f e e l i n g amongst t h e governor 's people t h a t you should s t a y away from t h e l e g i s l a t o r s , t h a t they were going t o b e d i f f i c u l t t o d e a l with?

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

I th ink t h e r e was a b a s i c f e e l i n g t h a t we had a job t o do and t h a t i f you become too--I know t h i s was no t a w r i t t e n r u l e , maybe it is an unwri t ten law--that i f you became too c l o s e t o c e r t a i n l e g i s l a t o r s , you r i s k going back t o "business a s usual ," government a s usual . We were r e a l l y t r y i n g t o make a change. I th ink we a l l f e l t t h a t we were t h e r e t o t r y to--we had been e l ec t ed (as I th ink t h e mandate i s again today) t o change government, improve it and s t reaml ine i t , and i f you j u s t g e t back i n t o the o ld cons t i t uenc ie s , you might no t g e t your job done. I th ink we were independent. Maybe we should have been a l i t t l e more congenial and f r i e n d l i e r a t t he beginning. A s time went on t h a t progress ive ly improved though. I

That sounds as i f t h e percept ion was t h a t most of t he th ings t h a t you wanted t o do could be done without--you d i d n ' t need l e g i s l a t i o n f o r i t?

Yes. But we d id need l e g i s l a t i o n i n a l o t of cases .

That was ev ident from t h e beginning?

We j u s t weren ' t adept lobbyers , you might s ay , f o r some of the th ings we wanted. We, again, i n my agency had very l i t t l e t roub le wi th t h i s . We had experienced l i a i s o n people from our agency t o work with t h e l e g i s l a t u r e , and we were no t involved i n con t rove r s i a l i s s u e s usua l ly .

You used people who were a l ready i n the department who a l ready knew the committee people. That makes i t a l o t e a s i e r , I suppose?

Yes, i t he lps .

Did you have t o t e s t i f y yourse l f o r present ma te r i a l ?

I d id , b u t very seldom.

It' sounds l i k e i t .

I ' v e got about f i f t e e n more minutes and then I have t o go run--

Workine wi th Governor Reaean

Morris : Thank you, I have j u s t a couple more ques t ions . Luce : Yes.

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

The o t h e r t h i n g I ' m i n t e r e s t e d i n is t h e flow of t h e work and t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p with t h e Governor--how_much time you would spend wi th him and how those cab ine t meetings would work.

Yes. Those meetings were we l l - s t ruc tu red . We d id a l l of our homework i n advance, prepar ing our memos. It took days and weeks maybe on i s s u e s , t o syn thes i ze an i s s u e . Then when we would f i n a l l y b r i n g i t t o t h e Governor, we should be completely informed of what t he s u b j e c t was. That would go t o our cab ine t s e c r e t a r y . We had a prel iminary cab ine t meeting, wi th t h e cab ine t s e c r e t a r y , and then we'd go i n t o meet wi th t h e Governor. So by then we r e a l l y had t h i s t h ing down t o s t r i c t l y t h e f a c t s of our case .

What kinds of th ings would you work ou t i n those prel iminary s e s s i o n s wi th t h e cab ine t s e c r e t a r y ?

Oh, maybe a f u r t h e r summarizing, c l a r i f y i n g . Confusion might s t i l l e x i s t . The cab ine t s e c r e t a r y would read a memo of yours and say , " I ' m no t s u r e what you ' r e t r y i n g t o g e t a t . " Sometimes he 'd want a n i ssue-or ien ted paper . So t h i s was not t o change your opinion s o much as t o g e t i t i n good order , ge t i t organized so--

Ahead of a cab ine t meeting, yes .

Would t h e r e be agenda ques t ions?

Yes.

I f they 've got f i v e of you a l l wanting time, how would you work it ou t wi th the cab ine t s e c r e t a r y ? Would h e say sometimes, "You c a n ' t ge t i t i n t h i s week, y o u ' l l have t o wa i t on i t till next week "?

Yes, t h a t would happen. Sometimes items were postponed. It would need much more research o r they dove ta i l ed , had some connection wi th some o the r agencies . This was a very [pause]

Morris : C r i t i c a l ?

Luce : Yes, c r i t i c a l cab ine t s i t u a t i o n t h a t we had t h e r e and nothing was ever--almost never--delayed. We d i d n ' t postpone meetings-- r a r e l y we postponed the meetings. I mean t h i s was a r i t u a l and i t was very important . It wasn ' t j u s t a sounding-board group. It was a . very formal kind of s i t u a t i o n .

Morris: This prel iminary work is done by t h e cabine t s e c r e t a r y ?

Luce: Yes.

Morris: Then t h a t person i s d i f f e r e n t from t h e execut ive a s s i s t a n t ?

Luce: That ' s r i g h t , ye s . The execut ive a s s i s t a n t once i n a whi le might g ive t h e cabine t s e c r e t a r y a very major i s s u e , and he might go i n h i s [ t h e execut ive a s s i s t a n t ' s ] o f f i c e and t a l k about t h a t major i s s u e o r an o v e r a l l p r i o r i t y i tem, high po l i cy issue--

Morris: And work t h a t over?

Luce: And go over t h a t t oge the r .

Morris: So t h a t be fo re th ings went t o t h e Governor, you would work them o u t yourse l f wi th your people and then wi th these c l o s e a i d e s s o t h a t everything was t i g h t l y s t r u c t u r e d t o push i t through and g e t a cabinet . meeting on schedule.

Luce : Yes, t h a t ' s r i g h t .

Morris : Are t h e r e many bus inesses t h a t can ope ra t e on t h e pol icy l e v e l on t h a t t i g h t of a b a s i s ?

Luce: I would hope they could. Some a r e l e s s d i s c i p l i n e d and more informal . Of course, a bus iness has an advantage i n t h a t t h e names and numbers of t h e p l aye r s a r e very well-known, and they have a l l worked toge ther f o r yea r s , progressing every y e a r . People don ' t come and go a s much, and t h e goals a r e no t argued every yea r . This is a much more dynamic s i t u a t i o n , b u t I th ink t h a t bus iness , t he ones I ' v e been a s soc i a t ed wi th , t r y t o keep t h e meetings on t h e agenda--

Morris: Any o rgan iza t ion can spend an awful l o t of time s i t t i n g around t a l k i n g about--

Luce : No th ing !

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Well, i t ' s f a s c i n a t i n g a t t h e time! [ l a u g h t e r ]

Well, s u r e , how would you ever g e t through t h e day and g e t t h e s e th ings done unless you had t h i s s t r u c t u r e .

Right , and wi th a l l of those th ings t o cover . One l a s t ques t ion is t h e bus iness of access t o t h e Governor--How much time could h e spend wi th each of you o r how quickly could you g e t t o him i f you needed t o ?

Here aga in , my needs were not a s g r e a t a s some o t h e r s , be ing i n a f i e l d t h a t was not a s c o n t r o v e r s i a l . I only asked f o r p r i v a t e meetings with t h e Governor when i t was a very top i s s u e , t o deba te t h e s u b j e c t . I can remember we had some debates wi th t h e d i r e c t o r of Finance; sometimes t h a t had t o be r e f e r e e d by t h e Governor h imse l f . O r [ i naud ib l e phrase] t o c r e a t e a new p lan o r when we put toge ther t h e t a s k f o r c e on t r a n s p o r t a t i o n . We had meetings on t h e people we would want on t h i s .

That was underyour command?

Yes. The chairman was William P e r e i r a who was a vo lun tee r , a r c h i t e c t i n L.A., a very good f r i e n d of t h e Governor 's. We made him chairman, b u t we s t a f f e d i t and I ' m l i s t e d a s one of t h e members of t h e execut ive committee. But t h i s was r e a l l y my i d e a and I have a p i c t u r e of myself h e r e on one s i d e and Governor Reagan i n t h e middle down t h e r e and B i l l P e r e i r a on t h e o t h e r s i d e of t h e podium a t t h e d inner we had when t h e t a s k f o r c e f i n i s h e d i ts work.

Very n i ce . So you and t h e Governor and--

We had some meetings on t h i s s u b j e c t .

Who would be on t h e t a s k f o r c e ?

Yes.

Then d id h e appoint them o r d id you?

He appointed them, b u t wi th my counsel on t h e kind of people we should have.

One time I asked t h a t h e i n s t a l l a s p e c i a l bu t ton i n h i s te lephone f o r each cab ine t s e c r e t a r y because I f e l t t h a t t h e r e were i s s u e s on occasion, s u b j e c t s t h a t we ought t o be a b l e t o reach him and not have t o go through t h e cab ine t s e c r e t a r y process .

Luce : He s a i d , "Marvelous idea." So we got a red bu t ton [ inaud ib l e phrase] . I d i d n ' t have t o use i t very o f t e n , and then i t d i s - appeared a t some po in t . But I knew I could, i f I wanted t o , reach him and no t have anything d i l u t e d . He always agreed t o do whatever was necessary t o make t h e machinery work.

He would a l s o come over and v i s i t your agency on occasion. He was always a v a i l a b l e when e s s e n t i a l .

Morris: Come o u t and encourage t h e t roops , t h a t kind of t h ing?

Luce: Yes, we'd do th ings l i k e ge t him i n t h e audi tor ium [of t h e S t a t e Transpor ta t ion Bui ld ing] so people could come over .

Morris: Was t h i s something t h a t you would r eques t o r d id h e say , "I would l i k e t o do t h i s i n o r d e r t o s t a y i n touch."

Luce: I don ' t know how i t s t a r t e d , b u t I th ink you do something l i k e t h a t ; i f i t goes w e l l , you do i t aga in .

Morris: Yes, i t ' s a good communication-type th ing .

Luce : Yes, i t ' s l i k e you do i n a bus iness r ea l ly , -where you can reach o u t and meet people and t a l k t o some and b e t h e s i g n a l t o your people t h a t you ' re on t h e job and doing bus ines s . It a l s o gives you some chance t o desc r ibe t o him what you ' re doing, you know, your success s t o r y .

Morris: I n t h e time t h a t you were t h e r e , what kind of changes d id you s e e o r not i n t h e Governor himself and how he d e a l t w i th c h a i r i n g t h e cab ine t , f o r i n s t a n c e , o r dea l ing wi th o t h e r i s s u e s t h a t came up?

Luce : Of course, he became extremely informed on a l l t h e i s s u e s i n C a l i f o r n i a [ i naud ib l e ph rase ] . He seemed t o t h r i v e on h i s r o l e and t h e more h e learned , t h e more h e enjoyed h i s p o s i t i o n , t h e job. He has not been and never has been r e a l l y a person t h a t abuses power--power can co r rup t a person and t h a t never happened t o him. He d i d n ' t change i n p e r s o n a l i t y , h i s way wi th people, o r you never sensed any kind of going t o h i s head o r a "Now, we're going t o do i t t h i s way" and pounding t h e desk, o r crude approach o r whatever. He kep t a very s teady schedule and he is a very d i s c i p l i n e d person.

Morris: Were t h e r e t imes when he d id l o s e h i s temper?

Luce: Rarely.

Morris: Maybe temper is too s t r o n g of a word, b u t was angry o r upse t about th ings .

Luce : Yes. He could g e t t h a t way once i n a wh i l e when something would go wrong o r someone wouldn't understand o r some l e g i s l a t o r would say something derogatory on t h e f l o o r a b o u t a c e r t a i n b i l l . He could ge t unhappy about t h a t and say s o , and so f o r t h . But h e ' s no t a temperamental type. Didn ' t t ake th ings o u t on t h e s t a f f .

Morris: Were t h e r e some people w i t h i n t h e group of t h e agency and t h e o f f i c e s t a f f who--?

Luce: Some were more emotional than o t h e r s .

Morris: Yes, who d id have t roub le with--?

Luce : Well, t h e f i r s t Finance d i r e c t o r , Gordon Paul Smith, tended t o ge t emotional and l e f t a f t e r s i x months.

Morris: I n o t h e r words, some people don ' t r e a l l y make t h e t r a n s f e r t e r r i b l y w e l l from bus iness t o government?

Luce: Most people d id make t h e t r a n s f e r q u i t e w e l l . A few d id n o t , b u t t h e major i ty of them d id . I th ink t h a t most of t h e people i n our agency d id very w e l l ; they had c r e d e n t i a l s i n t ranspor- t a t i o n o r f i nance i n t h e p r i v a t e s e c t o r . My,agency was mostly business-oriented k inds of people. Some of t h e Governor's people w e r e a l i t t l e more p o l i t i c a l . Most of them d id w e l l .

Morris: Then t h e r e i s somebody l i k e Tom Reed who was k ind of i n and ou t .

Luce : Yes.

Morris: He worked on campaigns and then h e came i n t h e o f f i c e f o r a whi le .

Luce : Yes, q u i t e unusual.

Morris: Then i n 1970 he came back and h e was co-chairman wi th Eleanor Ring f o r t h e 1970 r e -e l ec t ion campaign.

Luce: Yes, h e probably was. He was n a t i o n a l committeeman--

Morris :

Luce:

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Morris :

Luce :

Then h e was n a t i o n a l committeeman r i g h t i n t he re , too?

He i s s t i l l i n Washington, i n and out of Washington, you know; h e w a s Secre ta ry of t h e A i r Force under P r e s i d m t Ford.

He s t i l l keeps a C a l i f o r n i a base .

He is f a sc ina t ed wi th pub l i c s e r v i c e . Enjoys p o l i t i c s .

What is h i s p a r t i c u l a r approach and i n t e r e s t ?

He was only on hand f o r t h r e e months a s t he appointments s e c r e t a r y , so I c a n ' t r e a l l y s a y . He was t h e r e f o r two o r t h r e e months and then l e f t .

But do you s e e him o f f and on?

Well, no t - r e c e n t l y . But through those yea r s I would s e e him a t a convention o r p o l i t i c a l event [ i naud ib l e phrase] .

Does h e l i k e the pub l i c s e r v i c e o r i s i t t h e p a r t y o r i e n t a t i o n ?

He l i k e s both.

Well, they s o r t of--

They s o r t of go toge ther sometimes, b u t so many of t h e people t h a t I had i n my agency, t he savings and loan commissioner and t h e r e c r e a t i o n commissioner and the ABC [Alcoholic Beverage Cont ro l ] ; they were not p o l i t i c a l people; they were more i n t e r e s t e d i n pub l i c admin i s t r a t i on and pub l i c s e r v i c e , b u t no t p o l i t i c s .

Well, thank you f o r g iv ing me so much of your time on a Friday.

Well, c e r t a i n l y . Nice t o t a l k t o you, Gabr i e l l e ; i t ' s n i c e t o s e e you.

I V RETRACING THE BUSINESS AND TRANSPORTATION AGENCY SECRETARYSHIP, 1967-1.969 -

[ I n t e r v i e w 2: February 1 8 , 19831 i/i/

Balancing T r a n s p o r t a t i o n Needs With Environmental C o n s i d e r a t i o n s

Sharp: I t h o u g h t we'd s tar t by t a l k i n g more abou t your work i n t h e Bus iness and T r a n s p o r t a t i o n Agency. Sixty-seven t h r o u g h '69. Most of my q u e s t i o n s about t h i s a r e b u i l t on t h e i n t e r v i e w t h a t G a b r i e l l e Morr i s had w i t h you s e v e r a l months ago. You made r e a l l y i n t e r e s t i n g comments about your work, s o I would l i k e t o push you a l i t t l e b i t f u r t h e r t o make some more r e c o l l e c t i o n s of t h a t .

Luce: A l l r i g h t .

Sharp: The c r e a t i o n of t h e agency was p a r t of t h e r e o r g a n i z a t i o n t h a t went on , s t a r t e d i n '67 and t h e n pushed t h r o u g h till 1968.

Luce: Yes.

Sharp: It was t h e n t h e e x i s t i n g Bus iness , Commerce and Highway Transpor ta - t i o n a g e n c i e s t h a t - -

Luce: They w e r e s e p a r a t e a g e n c i e s .

Sharp: And t h e n brought t o g e t h e r .

Luce: The T r a n s p o r t a t i o n Agency was e x i s t i n g a t t h e t i m e Governor Reagan came i n t o o f f i c e and I became s e c r e t a r y . Those depar tments were merged a t t h a t t i m e t o g e t h e r , DMV [Department of Motor V e h i c l e s ] , Highway P a t r o l , P u b l i c Works, and w i t h a n o v e r a l l umbre l l a of j u s t t r a n s p o r t a t i o n . There was a s e c r e t a r y of T r a n s p o r t a t i o n , M r . [Rober t ] Bradford. The b u s i n e s s depar tments were r e a l l y on t h e i r own, and

Luce: t h e y were a p a r t of something c a l l e d a n Investment Board. They m e t on o c c a s i o n t o g e t h e r and t h e y e l e c t e d t h e i r own chairman from among t h e r e g u l a t o r s . It was r e a l l y n o t a c t i v e l y i n c l u d e d i n t h e government fami ly . So I sugges ted t h a t we merge t h a t group of depar tments w i t h t h e t r a n s p o r t a t i o n area s o t h a t w e had more c o n t r o l and communication. Then we added s e v e r a l o t h e r s , as you know, ABC and housing and community development.

Sharp: R igh t . You mentioned i n t h e i n t e r v i e w w i t h Gaby Morr i s t h a t you t o o k a g r e a t e r i n t e r e s t i n t h e b u s i n e s s p a r t of t h e Bus iness and T r a n s p o r t a t i o n Agency.

Luce: O r i g i n a l l y I d i d . Coming i n t o t h e p o s i t i o n , I was a businessman and w a s more f a m i l i a r w i t h banking and s a v i n g s and l o a n and r e a l e s t a t e and i n s u r a n c e t h a n I was t r a n s p o r t a t i o n . But by v i r t u e of t h e importance of t r a n s p o r t a t i o n t o t h e s ta te of C a l i f o r n i a , t h e budge t , t h e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y , and t h e needs , I soon became a t r a n s p o r t a t i o n a d m i n i s t r a t o r and l e s s of a b u s i n e s s a d m i n i s t r a t o r .

My r o l e w i t h t h e b u s i n e s s depar tments was mainly one of c o o r d i n a t i o n and making c e r t a i n t h a t t h e y had t h e i r b u d g e t s i n p roper o r d e r and t h a t t h e i r impor tan t problems and p o l i c i e s were looked a t by t h e governor and our c a b i n e t . I had v e r y l i t t l e problem t h e r e . Regula to ry a g e n c i e s , normal ly speak ing , a r e w e l l o rgan ized and have a c e r t a i n d e f i n i t e g o a l and program t o implement. We had e x c e l l e n t heads of t h o s e v a r i o u s depar tments . I j u s t t h i n k back o f t e n on how f o r t u n a t e we were. The peop le t h a t headed up t h e Department of Real E s t a t e , Bur t [Burton E.] Smith, and t h e Savings and Loan, P r e s t o n Mar t in , e t c . , and Bob [Rober t ] Volk [ J r . ] i n C o r p o r a t i o n s , were a l l o u t s t a n d i n g . " So most of my t i m e was devoted d u r i n g t h o s e y e a r s t o t h e t r a n s p o r t a t i o n a r e a s .

Sharp: That would you s a y were some of t h e main i s s u e s i n t h e t r a n s p o r t a t i o n a r e a ?

Luce: O v e r a l l , t h e main i s s u e when I came t o Sacramento and Governor Reagan came t o Sacramento I f e l t was p o s s i b l y t h e p e r c e p t i o n and dominance of t h e highway program over environmental c o n s i d e r a t i o n s and over r a p i d t r a n s i t c o n s i d e r a t i o n s . Those two s u b j e c t s were j u s t becoming major p u b l i c t o p i c s i n America, and c e r t a i n l y I f e l t t h a t i n t h e p a s t , t h e a d m i n i s t r a t i o n had n o t s p e n t enough t i m e and concern a b o u t t h o s e s u b j e c t s .

*See i n t e r v i e w w i t h Robert Volk, J r . , "Government Reform and The M a t u r i t y of t h e P o l i t i c a l P r o c e s s , " i n O r g a n i z a t i o n a l and F i s c a l Views of t h e Reagan A d m i n i s t r a t i o n , Regional Oral H i s t o r y O f f i c e , The Bancrof t L i b r a r y , U n i v e r s i t y of C a l i f o r n i a , 1984.

Luce: I made a s t rong e f f o r t t o concen t r a t e more on those s u b j e c t s so t h a t we had some balance t o t h e t r a n s p o r t a t i o n s u b j e c t i n Ca l i fo rn i a . One of t h e t h i n g s t h a t we d id t o make it more than j u s t a speech and a s ta tement was t o propose l e g i s l a t i o n t h a t , by t h e way, was an outgrowth of t h e t r a n s p o r t a t i o n t a s k f o r c e , which I t h i n k I t o l d Gabr i e l l e q u i t e a b i t about e a r l i e r . We developed a Transpor ta t ion Board r a t h e r t h a n j u s t a highway board so t h a t we could begin t o d i s c u s s balanced t r a n s p o r t a t i o n . Eventual ly came l e g i s l a t i o n and t h e governor s igned a b i l l t o al low s a l e s t a x , e t c . , and highway t a x monies t o go i n t o r a p i d t r a n s i t programs i n t h e s t a t e of C a l i f o r n i a .

One p r o j e c t i s ev ident h e r e i n San Diego wi th t h e San Diego t r o l l e y , t h a t was j u s t inaugurated l a s t year and i s running very succes s fu l ly .

So we crossed t h e l i n e , I would say , of percept ion and began t o do something s u b s t a n t i a l i n t h i s f i e i d . I am very proud t h a t during our y e a r s i n Sacramento t h e word balance became a very well-known word i n our d i v i s i o n . We weren't j u s t highway b u i l d e r s anymore, which a c t u a l l y was a l l we had been allowed t o do. We had a Department of Publ ic Works, and it was b r idges and highways. But we began t o s t a r t t a l k i n g r ap id t r a n s i t and balanced t r anspor t a - t i o n . And we began t o make p l ans accord ingly .

We were a b l e t o s top some p r o j e c t s t h a t would have been harmful t o t h e environment. One be ing , which no one i n t oday ' s world would ever b e l i e v e could have ever even been cons idered , a br idge a c r o s s Emerald Bay i n south Lake Tahoe. The model was s i t t i n g i n f r o n t of my o f f i c e of t h a t proposed b r idge , and I s a i d , "This i s unbel ievable! I c a n ' t b e l i e v e t h a t anyone s e r i o u s l y could be cons ider ing a b r idge a t Lake Tahoe, r ega rd l e s s of t h e needs of t r a n s p o r t a t i o n i n t h a t a rea ."

Thebr idge " a f f a i r " was symbolic of some of t h e t h i n g s we were a b l e t o accomplish i n t hose days.

Sharp: I ' d l i k e t o back you. up j u s t a l i t t l e b i t , bu t I do want t o t a l k about some of t h e environmental con t rove r s i e s . You must have worked some, t h e n , w i t h . t h e BART [Bay Area Rapid T r a n s i t ] o rgan iza t ion , t he ' a d m i n i s t r a t i v e agency t h a t was running BART i n San ~ r a n c i s c o ?

Luce: Yes.

Sharp: I wondered i f you could t e l l me j u s t a l i t t l e b i t about t h a t .

Luce: That was no t an easy r e l a t i o n s h i p , because BART, of course , had gone through many yea r s of planning and work be fo re our admin i s t r a t i on came t o Sacramento. Now, t a l k i n g aga in about r ap id t r a n s i t , I t h i n k I pe r sona l ly , and I t h i n k many of our people, favored t h e concept. We need r ap id t r a n s i t i n C a l i f o r n i a , and h e r e i s a c i t y where it i s most conducive t o t h a t kind of t r a n s p o r t a t i o n . Therefore, I went i n t o t h i s t h ink ing BART i s a good and necessary p r o j e c t , and we must he lp BART.

But a s we went down t h e " t rack," we found t h a t t h e funding of it was confused. There were many problems wi th BART i n t h e e a r l y days, i n t h e planning of it and t h e admin i s t r a t i on of it. It w a s a new e n t e r p r i s e , and r ap id t r a n s i t ' s very hard t o produce. -The re were many days, mostly i n t h e l e g i s l a t u r e , where t h e funding of t h e BART p r o j e c t came up, and sometimes we had t o be i n oppos i t ion t o c e r t a i n forms of funding without cavea t s and parameters , e t c . I f t h e s t a t e of C a l i f o r n i a was t o fund more money f o r BART, you had t o r e q u i r e t h i n g s i n order t o make c e r t a i n t h a t it was a good system, and t h a t it served x number of people, and t h a t t h e p l ans were c a r r i e d ou t proper ly .

BART was i n essence a p r o j e c t t h a t was going forward r e g a r d l e s s of our involvements i n t hose days. I t h i n k I was of some he lp i n saying o v e r a l l a s an agency d i r e c t o r i n Transpor ta t ion t h a t t h i s was a system t h a t was needed, and we must t r y t o make it work, and it must be a success , and it would be most unfor tuna te f o r C a l i f o r n i a i f it was not a success .

Sharp: Did you have q u i t e a b i t of working, t hen , wi th t h e committees i n t h e s t a t e l e g i s l a t u r e , e i t h e r t h e assembly o r t h e sena te?

Luce: We would be c a l l e d f o r p re sen ta t ions . Our department was c a l l e d on f o r information.

Sharp: I wonder wi th r e s p e c t t o BART s p e c i f i c a l l y i f t h e r e were some anecdotes you r e c a l l about how t h e l e g i s l a t u r e might have supported o r balked a t t h a t ?

Luce: Well, n o t r e a l l y . Of course, t h e Assembly Transpor ta t ion and Commerce Committee and t h e Senate Transpor ta t ion Committee had a dominance of no r the rn Ca l i fo rn i ans involved, and they a r e BART suppor te rs . Yet t h e e n t i r e s t a t e of C a l i f o r n i a was asked t o i n va r ious ways he lp fund t h i s p r o j e c t . So t h e r e were con t rove r s i e s along t h o s e l i n e s . I myself pe r sona l ly was n o t as involved a s some o t h e r s i n our department were. So i t ' s a l i t t l e hazy i n my memory now.

Luce: I can remember being p a r t of t h e ded ica t ing ceremonial group and having t h e chance t o be on t h e barge over t h e [San Francisco] Bay where t h e l a s t p o r t i o n of t h e [ t ransbay] t ube was--

Sharp : Put i n p lace .

Luce: Put i n p l ace , yes . That was a personal p l easu re because, aga in , I always f e l t t h a t t h e r e were percept ions , i n a c c u r a t e percept ions , t h a t we were a misunderstood and l i m i t e d highway-building group over t h e r e i n Sacramento. Unfortunately, people d i d n ' t understand t h a t we were r e a l l y t r y i n g t o t a k e a l eade r sh ip r o l e i n balanced t r a n s p o r t a t i o n . I was so pleased t h a t t hey i n v i t e d me t o t h e ceremony, and I was one of t h e i r major g u e s t s a t t h a t p a r t i c u l a r ceremony.

Then I t h i n k people began t o r e a l i z e ' i n t h e Bay- Area t h a t t h e r e had been a change i n Sacramento, and t h a t t h e p a s t highway bu i ld ing , which had been 've ry unpopular, a s you know, i n San Francisco, had changed i n terms of our p e r s p e c t i v e of t h e s u b j e c t and t h e d i r e c t i o n s we would be t ak ing i n t h e f u t u r e . I was t r y i n g very hard t o change t h a t pe rcep t ion , because it was a s i n c e r e t h i n g t h a t we were t r y i n g t o do.

I had come obviously from southern C a l i f o r n i a where highways had been our only mode of t r a n s p o r t a t i o n , bu t we'd a l l seen t h e f o l l y of poss ib ly t o o much concre te and n o t enough b e a u t i f i c a t i o n and environmental cons ide ra t ions when freeways were being b u i l t through va r ious a r eas .

So we were a b l e t o , I t h i n k , b r ing t h i s t h ink ing i n t o t h e Highway Commission and c e r t a i n l y i n our t a s k f o r c e , which was s e l e c t e d by t h e governor and myself. [We] brought people l i k e B i l l P e r e i r a i n t o t h e chairmanship, because we saw t h e s e people a s v i s i o n a r y p lanners and people w i th a concern f o r t h e environment, a s w e l l a s having a g r e a t i n t e r e s t i n good t r a n s p o r t a t i o n . We b u i l t and supplemented and complemented, I t h i n k , highway bu i ld ing wi th o t h e r forms of good t r a n s p o r t a t i o n planning and th ink ing .

Sharp: I have a couple of ques t ions about t h e Highway Commission, bu t I want t o f i t t hose i n l a t e r , because they d e a l wi th some of t h e environmental concerns.

To push you i n t o a d i f f e r e n t a r e a , I know t h a t M r . Volk was t h e Corporat ions commissioner during t h e same t ime t h a t you were t h e agency s e c r e t a r y . He has done a couple of in te rv iews wi th us . One of t h e e f f o r t s t h a t he was t a l k i n g about was t h e r ewr i t i ng of t h e

Sharp: corpora t ions code, which occurred during h i s t enu re . He got t h e code passed through t h e l e g i s l a t u r e . One of t h e reasons f o r t h e changes i n t h e code was t o a l low more corpora t ions t o come i n t o Ca l i fo rn i a and dropping some of t h e b a r r i e r s , with r e s p e c t t o underwri t ing and s a l e s of s e c u r i t i e s .

I wonder i f you r e c a l l any o the r s o r t s of e f f o r t s w i t h i n t h e Business and Transpor ta t ion Agency t h a t might have worked toward t h i s same s o r t of goa l t h a t M r . Volk had i n mind f o r t h e co rpo ra t ions code?

Luce: Again, an o v e r a l l po l i cy of deregula t ion . A po l i cy t h a t would not impede and be a b a r r i e r t o t hose bus inesses i n C a l i f o r n i a t h a t were t r y i n g t o do a good job, so t h a t r egu la to ry agencies were mainly i n bus iness t o guard' a g a i n s t wrongdoing and o f f enses and anti-consumer t y p e i n i t i a t i v e s t h a t we would be a g a i n s t .

We were a b l e t o say t o our va r ious r egu la to ry departments, t a k e a good look a t what your programs a r e and what your bureaucrac ies a r e doing, and l e t ' s s e t our s a i l wi th t h e i d e a t h a t we would, f i r s t of a l l , speed up any s e r v i c e s t h a t each r egu la to ry agency i s o f f e r i n g , so t h a t t h i n g s can be processed more quick ly , so t h a t t h e r e ' s l e s s red t a p e , and s t i l l adequately p r o t e c t t h e consumer, and so t h a t t h e r e ' s l e s s harrassment of t h e bus ines s community. So t h a t we would c e r t a i n l y do a s Mr. Volk d i d so we l l i n h i s a r ea : i n s t i l l a f e e l i n g of encouragement t o improve t h e bus iness c l ima te i n C a l i f o r n i a so t h a t o t h e r s t a t e s and a l l would cons ider u s a s a l e a d e r i n t h i s f i e l d .

I t h i n k t h a t we were a b l e t o do t h a t . I t h i n k we helped t h e governor wi th a program of encouraging bus iness and improving t h e bus iness c l ima te i n Ca l i fo rn i a .

Sharp: I know t h a t l a t e r , i n t h e 70s, t h e i s s u e of t h e bus iness c l ima te o r an t i -bus iness climate--

Luce: Yes, c e r t a i n l y under Governor [Edmund G . , J r . ] Brown's admin i s t r a t i on t h a t became a major i s s u e . Af t e r s e v e r a l y e a r s of, I think, a downward t r e n d i n t h a t f i e l d , he adopted some programs and brought i n some appoin tees t h a t were more pro-business. He was r e a l l y c r i t i c i z e d t h e f i r s t s e v e r a l yea r s of t h e admin i s t r a t i on wi th being an t i -bus iness , and he became concerned f i n a l l y and woke up t o t h i s problem. He t r i e d , I t h i n k , a t some s t a g e s i n h i s admin i s t r a t i on .

Sharp: Did you t h i n k t h a t you were at tempting t o recover some, t o o , from Governor Pa t [Edmund G . , S r . ] Brown? Was that--?

Luce: Not so much Governor Pa t Brown a s t h e t imes . I t h i n k t h e t imes had been one of a g r e a t e f f o r t i n highway bu i ld ing , which had been very important . We had become t h e l ead ing s t a t e i n t h e n a t i o n i n terms of our highway development program. Poss ib ly when our t ime came, t h e r e needed t o be more balance i n t h e o v e r a l l t r a n s p o r t a t i o n planning s i t u a t i o n , and y e t we d i d n ' t want t o d e t e r t h e highway program i n C a l i f o r n i a . I n f a c t , we added a thousand o r more mi l e s onto t h e highway program and t r i e d t o complete t h e highway program, because Ca l i fo rn i ans need t h e i r highways. I t ' s an e s s e n t i a l way of t r a n s p o r t a t i o n and it works. It can c a r r y more people t han any o t h e r form of t r a n s p o r t a t i o n devised by man. U n t i l we can f i n d t h e answer t o more e f f i c i e n t t r a n s p o r t a t i o n on t h e ground, t h e automobile w i l l s t i l l be t h e major fo rce .

Sharp: With your background i n sav ings and loan , I wondered i f you brought i n t o t h i s p o s i t i o n a s agency s e c r e t a r y some s p e c i a l pe r spec t ive?

Luce: I s tayed away from savings and loan a s s e c r e t a r y of Business and Transpor ta t ion f o r s e v e r a l reasons. [ F i r s t , ] t h a t I c e r t a i n l y d i d n ' t want a c o n f l i c t of i n t e r e s t ; and secondly, I was so f a sc ina t ed wi th o t h e r new s u b j e c t s . Th i rd ly , we had a f i n e commissioner, P re s ton Mar t in , so t h a t 1 f e l t w e w e r e i n good hands. The t h i n g s he d id a s an expe r t i n h i s f i e l d were a l l h e l p f u l t o t h e admin i s t r a t i on and t o t h e community.

Sharp: Did you have any s p e c i a l i d e a s f o r l e g i s l a t i o n i n t h a t a r e a t h a t you might have t r i e d t o pursue?

Luce: He d i d . No, I d id no t . F i r s t of a l l , during Pres ton Mar t in ' s time savings and loans became s t a t ewide i n na tu re . They had not been. I th ink t h e o r i g i n a l i dea f o r sav ings and loan a s s o c i a t i o n s was t o have a f i f t y -mi l e r a d i u s around t h e i r headquar te rs . Of course , C a l i f o r n i a and the times have changed g r e a t l y , and one of h i s i n i t i a t i v e s was t o a l l ow savings and loans t o branch from southern C a l i f o r n i a t o nor thern C a l i f o r n i a , o r v i c e ve r sa . It was something t h a t he i n i t i a t e d , and i t made sense . He went through the proper procedures and hear ings i n o rde r t o achieve t h a t . He had q u i t e a few e x c i t i n g i d e a s , but I th ink i t would be b e s t i f he presented those i f you in t e rv i ew him. -. .

But t h e o v e r a l l i d e a of a p o s i t i v e , p rog res s ive department i n t h a t f i e l d with l e s s harrassment was c e r t a i n l y an important one.

Of course , a s you know, h e ' s now vice-chairman of t h e Federa l Reserve. He's doing we l l . He's gone a long way, a s many of our department heads d i d , and he became Federa l Home Loan Bank chairman a f t e r h i s s t i n t i n Ca l i fo rn i a . So he 'd be a good person t o in te rv iew.

Sharp: He would. He c e r t a i n l y would. I t ' s an a r e a t h a t we d o n ' t have very much on.

Luce: He'd be good.

Notes on S ~ e c i f i c Controversies: The 'Centurv Freewav.'Mineral d

King, and t h e Tahoe Bridge

Sharp: I ' m t r y i n g t o f i g u r e ou t what kinds of ma t t e r s might have come up f o r d i scuss ion i n cab ine t meetings t h a t would have involved your work a s agency s e c r e t a r y , and I wonder i f you could f i l l t h a t i n f o r me j u s t a b i t ?

Luce: Well, t h e r e were l e g i s l a t i v e proposa ls , f o r i n s t ance . One very l a r g e s u b j e c t a t t h e t ime was t h e "Century Freeway1' s u b j e c t . The Century Freeway had been planned by t h e e a r l i e r admin i s t r a t i on . It was i n t h e Highway Commission's o v e r a l l p l an f o r Ca l i fo rn i a . It was t o be a major freeway i n Los Angeles, connecting t o t h e Los Angeles I n t e r n a t i o n a l Ai rpor t . One of t h e problems was t h e f a c t t h a t t h e freeway would go through many r e s i d e n t i a l a r e a s on i t s way t o t h e a i r p o r t . So we worked ou t wi th Assemblyman Leon Ralph from t h e h e a r t of Los Angeles, a r e l o c a t i o n program so t h a t r e s i d e n t s i n t h e Century Freeway a r e a would have a c e r t a i n allowance and a way t o move t h e i r res idences t o another p a r t of Los Angeles and not l o s e , bu t i n f a c t upgrade t h e i r q u a l i t y of l i v i n g through t h e use of t h i s program and l e g i s l a t i o n . That was one s u b j e c t I remember br inging t o t h e cabine t .

The Century Freeway support monies had been locked up i n Washington. The highway program has worked wi th a l l k inds of cavea ts from Washington t h a t i f you d o n ' t have c e r t a i n s a f e t y s tandards o r i f you d o n ' t do t h i s o r i f you don ' t do t h a t , t hen you don ' t have t h e money. Lyndon Johnson had f rozen some of t h e highway funds ac ros s t h e n a t i o n because of t h e needs of t h e f e d e r a l government a t t h e t ime.

So we went back t o lobby i n Washington t o r e l e a s e t h e Century Freeway money f o r use i n Los Angeles. It was money t h a t Ca l i fo rn i a taxpayers had paid i n t o t h e fund i n Washington, and we used t h i s symbolical ly t o aga in show Ca l i fo rn i ans where t h e i r monies were going and how important our system was and how much was he ld back i n Washington. The cabine t s t rong ly supported my e f f o r t s t o r e t r i e v e t h e s e funds f o r Ca l i fo rn i a . Meanwhile, we were e f f e c t i v e l y making our po in t t h a t t hose monies were due Ca l i fo rn i a and we had t o have them back, and they f i n a l l y were given back t o us .

Luce: Those k inds of s u b j e c t s were discussed i n t h e cab ine t , t h a t whole Century Freeway b a t t l e and progress i n Washington, e t c e t e r a . I went back on s e v e r a l lobbying t r i p s t o Washington f o r t h a t p a r t i c u l a r p r o j e c t . We c a l l e d on Transpor ta t ion , I n t e r i o r , White House l i a i s o n wi th s t a t e and congress iona l people.

Another p r o j e c t was t h e Mineral King development i n t h e mountains of t h e c e n t r a l mountain a r e a of t h e S i e r r a s .

Sharp: Right. I have a few ques t ions about t h a t .

Luce: We f e l t we had everybody on our s ide . A l l t h e newspapers i n C a l i f o r n i a were i n support , and Ca l i fo rn i ans needed new rec rea t ion - o r i en t ed a r e a s t o s k i and t o enjoy. Yet we were having a l l k inds of problems wi th t h e n a t i o n a l park people i n Washington, and we went back no t j u s t t o a i d M r . [Walt] Disney, bu t t o a i d a p r o j e c t t h a t we f e l t Ca l i fo rn i ans wanted and needed.

Sharp: You got f a i r l y ho t controversy from t h e S i e r r a Club--

Luce: The S i e r r a Club, yes . But, a s I say , a t t h i s t ime w e f e l t on very s o l i d ground, because t h e San Francisco Chronicle , t h e Los Angeles Times, and most every media r e p r e s e n t a t i v e i n C a l i f o r n i a favored t h i s o v e r a l l plan. M r . Disney had gone t o a g r e a t dea l of e f f o r t t o make t h i s an environmentally a t t r a c t i v e , well-conceived p r o j e c t , you know, with--you'd only d r i v e i n so f a r and then you'd have t o t a k e a t r a i n up t o t h e development, so we wouldn't have problems wi th fumes and exhaust. And t h e r e would be a l l k inds of p r o t e c t i v e t r a i l s along t h e way f o r t h e w i l d l i f e . It was r e a l l y w e l l planned.

This was an except ion t o what t h e normal development i n a b e a u t i f u l a r e a would be. This was we l l worked o u t , and expe r t ly planned and was needed. I ' m s o r r y t h a t it never r e a l l y came about. I t h i n k t h a t was poss ib ly due t o t o o many yea r s of h a s s l i n g , p lus Mr. Disney's dea th and, I suppose, changes i n t h e i r p r i o r i t i e s .

sharp : This i s s u e t h a t came be f6 re t h e Highway Commission b r ings up t h e ques t ion of t h e c r i t e r i a t h a t t h e Highway Commission formulated i n working on p r o j e c t s l i k e t h e Disney p r o j e c t , and I wondered i f you could comment j u s t gene ra l ly about t h e k inds of c r i t e r i a t h a t t h e commission e s t a b l i s h e d ?

Luce: Well, f i r s t of a l l , t h e r e was a g r e a t dea l of l e g i s l a t i o n i n t h e f i e l d of highway planning, and so t h o s e c r i t e r i a were s t r i c t l y adhered t o . Then we, t h e members of t h e commission, requested o f f i c i a l i n t e r p r e t a t i o n s of t h e law. We requested more concern

Luce: and i n t e r e s t i n environmental cons ide ra t ions . We had t h e oppor tuni ty t o a d j u s t t h e budget so more would be put i n t o , say, landscaping, e t c . , before dec i s ions were made i n terms of adopted freeway rou te s . We made c e r t a i n t h a t t h e r e were more people heard and involved i n t h e concerns of t hose a r e a s before a freeway r o u t e was adopted.

I was very s e n s i t i v e t o t h i s sub jec t . I mean, I ' d l i v e d through s e v e r a l freeway con t rove r s i e s i n San Diego, and I had been more on t h e s i d e of t h e a n t i r a t h e r t han t h e pro i n some cases a s an average c i t i z e n . Nobody wants a freeway i n t h e i r backyard. Nobody wants a freeway i n t h e i r park. Yet t h e r e a r e p l a c e s , f o r i n s t a n c e i n Balboa Park, where a freeway was appropr i a t e and we l l planned. By t h e way, t h a t freeway was t h e r e be fo re our administra- t i o n , and i t ' s a well-conceived, a t t r a c t i v e freeway. It so lves t h e t r a n s p o r t a t i o n problem and it b r ings beauty t o t h e d r i v e r .

I t ' s a very s e r i o u s mat te r when you p lan a freeway, and we must be doubly c a r e f u l when a freeway i s going through a b e a u t i f u l a r e a , o r c e r t a i n l y when it a f f e c t s somebody's home.

ii ii

Sharp: Would t h i s be t h e p o i n t of br inging up t h e i s s u e of t h e b r idge t h a t you mentioned when we f i r s t s t a r t e d ?

Luce: The Tahoe br idge?

Sharp: The Tahoe br idge , yes .

Luce: There a r e many s t rong reasons why f r e e w a y s a r e good p u b l i c po l i cy . You have l e s s p o l l u t i o n because t h e c a r ' s no t s topping and s t a r t i n g , e t c . , and you have l e s s l o s s of l i f e . Obviously, freeways a r e much s a f e r than c i t y s t r e e t s .

So good ideas a r e presented a t t h e s e hea r ings , and one has t o s ay , "That's important , bu t maybe i n t h e Tahoe case , something i s more important , and t h a t i s t h e long-term beauty and environment of t h a t area. ' '

Sharp: Did you g e t q u i t e a b i t of uncomfortable r e a c t i o n from c e r t a i n groups ?

,

Lute: I t h i n k t h a t t h e r e a r e highway b u i l d e r s who r e s e n t t hose who impede t h e progress of a highway. I t h i n k t h e r e were some people t h a t were somewhat b i t t e r t h a t t h e br idge was stopped. But obviously

Luce: t h e r e were many more who s a i d , "I c a n ' t b e l i e v e t h a t t h i s was even being considered," because t h e beauty of t h a t a r e a should be preserved, and i n t h a t ca se t h a t t a k e s precedence, I t h i n k , over t h e needs of t h e automobile, t h e mo to r i s t , i n t h a t p a r t i c u l a r a rea .

There a r e many o the r a r e a s where t h e m o t o r i s t ' s i n t e r e s t s must be balanced wi th t h e environmental cons ide ra t ions .

Sharp: Did M r . Reagan have any s t rong f e e l i n g s one way o r t h e o t h e r about t h e Tahoe b r idge?

Luce: I t h i n k h e expressed t h e same concern a s we had ; he was pleased we discovered t h i s was on t h e p l an and cance l led it. He was very suppor t ive of our e f f o r t s a g a i n s t it, and i n a much bigger sense , he was very suppor t ive of t h e idea of balanced t r a n s p o r t a t i o n and t h e idea t h a t we would have t o move f u r t h e r i n t o t h e d i r e c t i o n s of r ap id t r a n s i t cons ide ra t ions and environmental planning i n our t r a n s p o r t a t i o n program.

You know, h e i s r e a l l y a man of t h e outdoors . He loves t h e beauty of t h e C a l i f o r n i a w i lde rnes s , e t c . He i s a horseback r i d e r and f o r many yea r s had taken h i s r i d e s through t h e t r a i l s of t h e S i e r r a and so f o r t h . So h e ' s very en l ightened and balanced i n h i s approach.

V SERVICE FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY

Ronald Reagan and P r e s i d e n t i a l P o l i t i c s : 1968 and 1972

Sharp: I want u s t o have t i m e t o t a l k about t h e Republican p a r t y and your involvement i n t h e p a r t y . How much more t i m e do you have today?

Luce: L e t ' s s e e , we've g o t about twenty minutes .

Sharp: L e t ' s g e t t o t h e p a r t y a c t i v i t i e s t h e n . I thought we might spend j u s t a b i t of t i m e on t h e p a r t y a t t h e n a t i o n a l l e v e l . Then I have q u i t e a few q u e s t i o n s about t h e p a r t y a t t h e s t a t e l e v e l . I have you down a s a t t e n d i n g t h e Republican n a t i o n a l convent ions i n '64, '68 and '72. I t h i n k t h a t ' s r i g h t .

Luce: I t ' s on my resume, s o you can p i c k it up from t h e r e . But t h e l a s t convent ion [1980] I was a d e l e g a t e , and t h e one b e f o r e [1976] my w i f e was. Then b e f o r e t h a t I was always t h e . d e l e g a t e . So one o r t h e o t h e r of u s have p a r t i c i p a t e d i n every d e l e g a t i o n s i n c e 1964.

Sharp: Now, of course , M r . Reagan had a v e r y d i f f e r e n t r o l e i n each of t h o s e .

Luce: Yes.

Sharp: I f we t a k e j u s t t h e '64, t h e '68 and t h e '72 ones--

Luce: I met him i n '64. He was an a l t e r n a t e d e l e g a t e two rows away from my s e a t , bo th suppo r t i ng Barry Goldwater.

Sharp: I thought probably t h a t was t h e case .

Luce: Y e s . Then on from t h e r e , of cou r se , h e became governor of C a l i f o r n i a and he headed t h e d e l e g a t i o n f r o m . t h e n on ou t . And c e r t a i n l y a c and ida t e a t many of t h o s e convent ions .

Sharp: I thought we might begin i n t a l k i n g about '68, which of course was h i s f i r s t - - t h a t ' s t h e f a v o r i t e son candidacy. That b r ings up t h e i s s u e of M r . Nixon's hegemony, h i s c o n t r o l of t h a t p a r t i c u l a r convention and Mr. Reagan's candidacy. I wondered what s o r t of pe r spec t ive you had on t h a t p a r t i c u l a r convention. There a r e some who f e e l he j u s t ba re ly missed it, and some who f e e l it wasn ' t t h e r i g h t t ime, and I wondered where you f i t i n a l l of t h a t ?

Luce: F i r s t , he would have been t h e b e s t candida te i n any of t h o s e p a r t i c u l a r years a s f a r a s I ' m concerned. There were t h o s e who f e l t it was t o o soon. He was being d r a f t e d r e a l l y t h a t f i r s t t ime. He had j u s t become governor of C a l i f o r n i a , had been governor f o r two yea r s . He was doing an e x c e l l e n t job. He was being watched n a t i o n a l l y and i n t e r n a t i o n a l l y , and he r e a l l y was t h e f a v o r i t e son of Ca l i fo rn i a . When you ' re a f a v o r i t e son of C a l i f o r n i a , you have one g r e a t s t e p ahead of any o th6 r candida te . So he went i n t o t h a t convention a s a very popular governor. There were t h o s e of us who f e l t t h a t he would be an e x c e l l e n t p re s iden t .

It j u s t was poss ib ly n o t q u i t e t h e r i g h t t ime. Not because it was t o o soon f o r him, bu t Richard Nixon had more n a t i o n a l involvement i n t h e pa r ty . He'd been out t h e r e many more years . He'd b u i l t h i s c a r e e r , and h e had narrowly l o s t t o John F. Kennedy i n t h a t e l e c t i o n . Very narrowly, i f you remember. By two c l o s e s t a t e s , Texas and I l l i n o i s . With t h e i r problems a t t h e b a l l o t box, i f t h e r e had been any change t h e r e a t a l l , Richard Nixon would have been p re s iden t . So I t h i n k t h e Republicans n a t i o n a l l y a s a group f e l t t h a t Richard Nixon had narrowly l o s t be fo re and t h a t he might be t h e more e l e c t a b l e candida te a t t h e t ime.

But we Ca l i fo rn i ans were b iased . It was a f a v o r i t e son de lega t ion . And we were t h e r e t o he lp t h e governor, a l though he d i d n ' t r eques t t h a t he lp . He was somewhat a d r a f t choice of our de lega t ion . We s a i d , "Governor Reagan, you should be a candida te a t t h i s convention." But a g r e a t d e a l was no t done about t h a t i n terms of organiza t ion and planning. It was no t a b i g , planned, s t r a t e g i c opera t ion a s f a r a s I ' m concerned. It was no t a p r o f e s s i o n a l opera t ion .

Sharp: I t h i n k t h e r e must have been d i f f e r e n t l e v e l s of a c t i v i t y .

Luce: Yes.

Sharp: I know M r . [Paul ] Haerle and C l i f [F. C l i f t o n ] White--

Luce :

Sharp :

Luce :

Sharp :

Luce :

Sharp :

Luce :

Sharp :

They were more p o l i t i c a l l y o r i en t ed than I was. They were doing p o l i t i c a l work, and I was i n t hose days on t h e cabine t i n Sacramento and I was not involved i n t h e Republican p a r t y i n a n y . o f f i c i a 1 way.

I was a vo t ing member of t h e de l ega t ion , bu t I was no t involved i n behind t h e scenes bui ld ing up of any candidacy. So I know l i t t l e about t h a t , o t h e r than what I experienced and what, I 've read.

I know t h a t people such a s Haerle and White and o t h e r s were a c t i v e l y pursuing t h e s u b j e c t . I was p roh ib i t ed from doing t h a t by v i r t u e of my r o l e a s an agency s e c r e t a r y on t h e cab ine t . I n t h e conversa t ions I had with people ac ros s t h e count ry , people who c a l l e d , I descr ibed h i s accomplishments a t t h a t t i m e and why he would be t h e b e s t candidate . There was a g r e a t i n t e r e s t among Ca l i fo rn i ans about h i s p o s s i b l e candidacy.

Now, i f you s h i f t t o t h e '72 convention, M r . Reagan then comes aga in t o Miami, of course, a s t h e head' of t h e C a l i f o r n i a de l ega t ion i n support of M r . Nixon. How was t h a t ? How--?

How did it work?

Yes.

M r . Nixon had t h a t convention we l l l i n e d up. He r e a l l y had an organiza t ion n a t i o n a l l y and had done a g r e a t d e a l i n bu i ld ing h i s organiza t ion . I n 1972 many of course were v i t a l l y i n t e r e s t e d i n seeing t h e governor become t h e candida te , bu t again, M r . Nixon had been t h e r e f i r s t . He'd been v ice-pres ident o f ' t h e United S t a t e s . He'd narrowly l o s t t h e p r e s i d e n t i a l e l e c t i o n . He had an organiza t ion n a t i o n a l l y . 'But even then , wi th having s a i d a l l of t h a t , t h e r e were t h o s e a t t h a t convention t h a t s a i d Ronald Reagan would be t h e b e t t e r candidate .

I had seen a n o t e t h a t t h e r e were some p r e t t y heated d i scuss ions about t h e r u l e s regarding t h e p la t form i s s u e s a t t h i s 1972 convention, and I wondered i f you r e c a l l very much about t h a t ?

S t u a r t Spencer would be a good person t o t a l k t o about t h o s e r u l e s , and Eleanor Ring [ S t o r r s ] , t oo . They were involved i n t h e work.

I had one card t h a t t o l d me t h a t you were on what was c a l l e d t h e Ca l i fo rn i a S t ee r ing Committee wi th M r . [Franklyn C.] Nofziger and a few o t h e r s , and I guess you must have spent some t ime meeting i n t h e per iod be fo re t h e convention.

Luce: Some. I had l e f t Sacramento i n 1970, come back t o my bus iness , and I had a year i n between t h e r e t o g e t back t o work. Then I was e l e c t e d vice-chairman of t h e s t a t e [Republican] pa r ty . Tha t ' s when I became involved aga in wi th Nofziger and o t h e r s . But more so i n t h e p a r t y way, i n terms of bu i ld ing t h e p a r t y i n Ca l i fo rn i a . Then even tua l ly , a s Nixon was nominated, t hen became more involved i n h i s p a r t i c u l a r campaign, and went on t o being chairman of h i s r e - e l ec t ion campaign i n C a l i f o r n i a , wi th M r . Nofziger a s our execut ive d i r e c t o r .

Roles a s S t a t e Pa r ty Vice-Chair and Chair ; The Shadow of Watergate

Sharp: L e t ' s t a l k some, t h e n , about your work a s v ice-cha i r of t h e s t a t e pa r ty .

Luce: Vice-chair was an i n t e r e s t i n g r o l e . My job was t o h e l p b u i l d p r e c i n c t ope ra t ions i n C a l i f o r n i a , and our s t a f f worked on t h a t sub jec t . To appeal t o t h e g r a s s r o o t s , t o b u i l d t h e p a r t y , t o open t h e doors and t r y t o b u i l d more minor i ty and o t h e r group elements i n t o t h e p a r t y appara tus . Then I was tagged t o be t h e chairman of t h e Re-elect t h e Pres ident campaign. The l i t t l e t ime I had from my bus iness was r e a l l y involved i n bu i ld ing t h a t campaign and s e l e c t i n g t h e people t h a t r an t h a t campaign i n Ca l i fo rn i a . I was r e a l l y doing t h i s a s a long-term Republican and a s t h e vice-chairman whom t h e governor of t h e s t a t e had s e l e c t e d . Because I was c l o s e r t o Ronald Reagan than I was t o Richard Nixon. But I was asked by t h e n a t i o n a l chairman, John Mi tche l l , who was h i s [Nixon's] chairman, t o be t h e chairman of t h e C a l i f o r n i a campaign, wi th t h e governor, of course , a s our l eade r . We wanted t o do w e l l i n Ca l i fo rn i a . Now t h a t Nixon had been chosen, we wanted t o have him e l e c t e d by a b i g ma jo r i t y , and we needed t o b u i l d t h e party-- through t h e p r e s i d e n t i a l campaign, which he lps b u i l d your p a r t y f o r t h e f u t u r e .

Sharp: Now, M r . Livermore, Put[nam] Livermore, of course , was t h e c h a i r .

Luce: He was t h e c h a i r of t h e p a r t y , and so I could t a k e t h i s s i d e r o l e and run t h e p r e s i d e n t ' s campaign a s he was running t h e s t a t e p a r t y and bu i ld ing t h e ? a r t y . There was some over lap t h e r e , obviously, because i f you ' r e bu i ld ing t h e p a r t y , t h a t ' s going t o he lp t h e p r e s i d e n t ' s campaign, and v i c e ve r sa . So we had a c l o s e k n i t group, and we were a l l dedica ted Republicans t r y i n g t o e l e c t a Republican p re s iden t .

Sharp: We might j u s t s l i p a few n o t e s i n he re about San Diego, because i t ' s such an i n t e r e s t i n g county f o r t h e Republican p a r t y . It had q u i t e a b i t of success s i n c e , a t l e a s t s i n c e 1962.when D r . Gaylord Parkinson and some of t h e o t h e r s had go t t en so involved.

Now, t e n years l a t e r when you ' re working on San Diego f o r M r . Nixon, how d id you f i n d t h e county i n terms of organiz ing and p r e c i n c t work and a l l of t h a t ?

Luce: This i s a county where many Democrats v o t e f o r Republican candida tes , so i t ' s a very f o r t u n a t e s i t u a t i o n . [ l a u g h t e r ] There i s a Democratic major i ty i n San Diego, a r e g i s t e r e d Democratic ma jo r i t y .

Sharp: I d i d n ' t even r e a l i z e t h a t .

Luce: Has been f o r years . Most people don ' t r e a l i z e t h a t , and i t ' s more o r an urban county than , say , Orange County, so t h e r e f o r e , t h e r e i s a p o s s i b i l i t y h e r e t h a t i n a s p e c i f i c e l e c t i o n , a ~ e m o c r a t would do wel l . And J e r r y [Edmund G. , Jr . ] Brown d id w e l l i n h i s f i r s t e l e c t i o n i n San Diego county. But by and l a r g e , many San Diegans who a r e r e g i s t e r e d Democrats do vo te Republican, because t h e y ' r e more conserva t ive .

When I worked i n a l l t h e governor 's campaigns t h e two t imes he r an , and t h e n t h e Richard Nixon campaign, t h e o rgan iza t ion he re worked we l l . We had our t r i a l s and t r i b u l a t i o n s , a s any campaign would, bu t I was t h e s t a t e chairman and would he lp s e l e c t t h e l o c a l chairmanship. It u s u a l l y worked wel l . There were always concerns t h a t we weren ' t working hard enough o r accomplishing what we wanted, bu t t h e n our v o t e was always extremely high. A good Republican candidate can do very w e l l wi th Democrats a s we l l a s Republicans i n t h i s county. George Deukmejian d id w e l l here . Pe t e Wilson obviously d i d w e l l , bu t t h a t ' s an unusual s i t u a t i o n . But going back, I can remember many a Republican candida te t h a t had a s u r p r i s i n g showing h e r e among Democrats a s we l l a s Republicans.

Sharp: How d id t h e fund r a i s i n g go i n San Diego f o r that--?

Luce: San Diego's no t known a s one of t h e b e s t fund-rais ing a r e a s i n t h e s t a t e . Many of our businesses--in t h e p a s t , n o t so much today-- were branches. Most of t h e banks a r e branches. It i s no t t h e w e a l t h i e s t community. There a r e many r e t i r e d people he re t h a t have weal th , e t c .

Luce: Fund r a i s i n g has never been a g r e a t success . It has progressed, and P e t e Wilson, I t h i n k , d i d very w e l l i n h i s fund-rais ing a c t i v i t i e s h e r e , because he was so we l l l i k e d and so w e l l known. And i n our Governor Reagan e f f o r t s , h e d id very w e l l , because he was extremely popular here .

But I d o n ' t t h i n k San Diego g ives t h e kind of money t h a t it should f o r t h e s i z e c i t y it is. That may be because we j u s t have no t worked hard enough a t t h a t . The money s i t u a t i o n i s improving, and candida tes seem t o be doing b e t t e r now. But I always f e l t , and I still do today , t h a t we should do b e t t e r .

Sharp: E i t h e r f o r M r . Nixon's r e - e l ec t ion campaign o r f o r M r . Reagan's r e - e l ec t ion campaign i n '70, o r even i n '74 when t h e r e were so many Cal P lan candida tes , were t h e r e new d i f f e r e n t s o r t s of e f f o r t s made i n fund r a i s i n g , o r were the--?

Luce: You mean l i k e d i r e c t mai l e f f o r t s o r more--?

Sharp: Yes, j u s t s t r a t e g i e s , d i f f e r e n t s t r a t e g i e s used t o up the--?

Luce: I t ' s been improving. There have been more p ro fe s s iona l people i n t h e d i r e c t mai l s i d e of it, and we have learned how t o b r ing more money out of t h e county. I t h i n k we've become much smarter i n terms of events and i n how we do our t h ing .

But I t h i n k we t r a d i t i o n a l l y p r i c e ou r se lves down a b i t . This i s p a r t of my problem. I mean, I was one of t h e ch ief fund-ra i sers , and I ' v e never pushed hard enough i n terms of t h e p r i c i n g .

I t h i n k we've been remiss. ~ o b k i n ~ back, we probably should have t r i e d t o i n c r e a s e t h a t goa l and t h a t t o t a l more every y e a r , and I t h i n k we could have done b e t t e r .

But I t h i n k we can do b e t t e r , and I t h i n k we a r e doing b e t t e r . Of course now we ' re t h e second l a r g e s t c i t y i n t h e s t a t e . We have something t o t a l k about , and we've produced a United S t a t e s Senator , s o I t h i n k it w i l l be coming around much b e t t e r now.

Sharp: You know, it b r ings up t h e q u e s t i o n o f s a n Diego versus Los Angeles i n terms of southern C a l i f o r n i a . Is t h e r e s t i l l an element of being seen somewhat i n t h e shadow of Los Angeles?

Luce: Yes, t h e r e i s t h a t . But we r ece ive a g r e a t d e a l of a t t e n t i o n when you cons ider our s i z e i n term wi th Los Angeles. A candida te i s obviously i n Los Angeles more t imes than h e r e , bu t when t h e cand ida t e ' s

Luce: h e r e , everyone knows about it. Everyone can shake h i s hand , o r h e r hand. And Los Angeles i s such a g i a n t a r e a t h a t sometimes t h e p u b l i c i s n ' t aware. I t h i n k we r e a l l y a r e beg inn ing t o g e t , and we d i d w i t h Governor Reagan, a g r e a t d e a l ' o f p o l i t i c a l a t t e n t i o n .

Sharp: Did h e come h e r e o f t e n ?

Luce: Yes, h e d i d . He spoke h e r e a g r e a t many t i m e s . And George Deukmejian d i d i n b o t h of h i s campaigns. So we've had some v e r y good a t t e n t i o n from Governor, t h e n P r e s i d e n t , Ronald Reagan and o t h e r s .

Sharp : . L e t ' s j u s t g e t a few n o t e s a b o u t your y e a r s as chairman. I had you coming i n i n '73 and b e i n g chairman th rough '74.

Luce: T h a t ' s p robab ly r i g h t . You c a n come i n February , and you go o u t two y e a r s l a t e r .

Sharp: Now, when you came i n t h e r e was q u i t e a l is t of p e o p l e who were i n t e r e s t e d i n be ing c h a i r a l o n g w i t h you, i f you r e c a l l . I have down H.L. Richardson, B i l l Campbell and C l i f f Anderson as w e l l .

Luce: Oh, y e s .

Sharp: Why d i d you t r iumph? Why was it l i k e l y t h a t you--?

Luce: [ l a u g h s ] T h a t ' s a good q u e s t i o n . I was t e l l i n g somebody a b o u t i t t h e o t h e r day. Well, I was d r a f t e d by Governor Reagan. I ' d come back t o b u s i n e s s , and h e c a l l e d m e , i n e s s e n c e , and sugges ted t h a t I r u n f o r vice-chairman. I ' d had t h r e e g r e a t y e a r s i n Sacramento, and I was one of t h e f a i t h f u l t o t h e Republ ican p a r t y , and I wanted t o h e l p . So I s a i d y e s . Then I found o u t two days l a t e r t h a t I r e a l l y had t o - r u n f o r something. I t h o u g h t I was t h e hand-picked c a n d i d a t e of t h e governor of C a l i f o r n i a , t h e r e f o r e I was it! Then I found o u t t h a t t h e r e were o t h e r s t h a t had a l r e a d y been t a l k i n g abou t it, b u i l d i n g t h e i r f o r c e s . C l i f f Anderson p a r t i c u l a r l y had a r e a l campaign go ing , s o I had t o g e t down t o b u s i n e s s .

Then I s t a r t e d t o u r i n g C a l i f o r n i a , be ing a c a n d i d a t e and r a i s i n g money, p u t t i n g o u t b rochures , ending up w i t h a b i g e l e c t i o n p a r t y i n Sacramento t h a t t h e governor a t t e n d e d . So I had t h e advan tage of t h e governor be ing f o r m e . That obv ious ly was t h e bottom l i n e . But I had t o work a t it. People i n Los Angeles p a r t i c u l a r l y , some of t h e p a r t y workers , wouldn ' t j u s r a c c e p t m e j u s t as t h e g o v e r n o r ' s hand-picked man. They wanted t o know what was I going t o do abou t t h e p a r t y and , "You've been d r a f t e d , Luce, b u t we have t h e s e o t h e r

Luce: people who have been working f o r years . How come?'' and "Are you going t o be a good chairman o r no t?" I had t o prove myself. I had two months of campaigning, and every day I s a i d , "My gosh, I d i d n ' t expect a l l of t h i s . "

But I began t o be enthused. I r e a l l y wanted t o win. I became a candida te . I had never wanted t o be a candida te , bu t once you ' re halfway i n and your r e p u t a t i o n i s a t s t a k e , and you know t h a t t h e governor c a n ' t r e a l l y save you i f you stumble, you have t o say t h e r i g h t t h i n g s and meet t h e r i g h t people and keep working a t it. So I thought , "Well, I ' m going t o be a winner now."

Sharp: How d id you f e e l about t h a t t ransformat ion of yourse l f from--?

Luce: I was dragging my h e e l s f o r a whi le , and then once I was e l e c t e d I f e l t very good about it and I enjoyed it. It was a hard t a s k f o r me a s t h e chairman of t h e Republican p a r t y . I probably over reac ted t o t h e negat ives and d id no t cons ider a l l t h e p o s i t i v e s , and looking back, I can now re-evaluate t h a t p a r t i c u l a r s i t u a t i o n . You have a thousand de l ega te s , and 90 percent of t h o s e people r e a l l y l i k e you. You're doing a good job , and they recognize it and t h e y ' r e wi th you.

But t h e r e might be 10 percent t h a t you hea r from, who complain, who have problems, you ' re promoting t h e wrong candida te o r whatever, o r you ' re g iv ing someone a more v i s i b l e r o l e i n t h e s t a t e pa r ty . So t h o s e t h i n g s would h u r t .

Sharp: I t ' s hard t o g e t used t o .

Luce: You know, it r e a l l y i s . I went t o Sacramento i n an informal way, and I thought I d id a good job , and everyone seemed t o be pleased wi th what I d id . I had very l i t t l e c r i t i c i s m , and I had f r i e n d s even i n t h e p r e s s who thought I d id a good job , and so I f e l t I had done my r o l e wel l .

A l l of a sudden you ' re thrown ou t he re a s a chairman on your own. So I found t h a t a l i t t l e d i f f i c u l t , bu t looking back, it was a good experience f o r me, and I r e a l l y t h i n k I enjoyed it.

Sharp: You know, j u s t t h e chronology of your coming i n a s s t a t e c h a i r i n ' 7 4 b r i n g s up t h e somewhat d i f f i c u l t i s s u e of M r . Nixon's r e - e l ec t ion campaign, some of t h e d i f f i c u l t i e s - -

Luce: Then Watergate, you mean?

Sharp: Yes. Was t h a t a shadow a t a l l ?

Luce: Yes. It was v e r y h a r d , because I had been h i s chai rman f o r t h e r e - e l e c t i o n i n ~ a l i f o r n i a . Wate rga te s t e a d i l y p r o g r e s s e d t o b e a problem. But , of c o u r s e , P r e s i d e n t Nixon was r e - e l e c t e d by a g i a n t m a j o r i t y , and w a t e r g a t e was s o r t of p u t i n t h e background.

Then, of c o u r s e , t h i n g s s t a r t e d t o deve lop . So t h e r e came a t i m e when even I a s t h e chairman of t h e p a r t y i n C a l i f o r n i a had t o s u g g e s t t h a t R ichard Nixon r e s i g n , which was a v e r y h a r d t h i n g t o do , b e c a u s e I ' m a n o l d , l o y a l p a r t y worker , and t o s e e o u r p a r t y crumbl ing was n o t a p l e a s a n t e x p e r i e n c e .

On t h e good s i d e , I became a f r i e n d of George Bush ' s a t t h e t i m e , who was Republ ican N a t i o n a l Committee chai rman, and h e went s t r o n g l y t h r o u g h t h a t e r a , was a b l e t o b e a n o b j e c t i v e pe r son i n t h e s i t u a t i o n , and h e d i d a v e r y good job t h a t way. We t o o k some of o u r l e a d from him.

But I can remember a t a [Repub l ican] F e d e r a t e d Women's n a t i o n a l conven t ion i n Los Angeles where we were asked t o b r i n g t o g e t h e r f i f t y l e a d e r s o f t h e p a r t y t o m e e t w i t h S p i r o Agnew. T h i s was b a c k s t a g e a f t e r one of t h e speeches . He spoke t o t h a t conven t ion . He proposed t h i s meet ing and wanted t o t e l l u s what was b e i n g s a i d abou t him a t t h e t i m e i n Washington was u n t r u e , t h a t h e was i n n o c e n t of any wrongdoing and t h a t h e was go ing t o c o n t i n u e a s v i c e - p r e s i d e n t . These t h i n g s were beg inn ing t o b o t h e r m e . Of c o u r s e , I had no i n s i d e i n f o r m a t i o n . A l l I knew, and a l l we knew a s p a r t y workers i n C a l i f o r n i a , was what we were r e a d i n g i n t h e p a p e r , b u t we f e l t v e r y bad a b o u t what was go ing on t h e r e . He wanted o b v i o u s l y t o b u i l d i n t o t h e p a r t y a p p a r a t u s a f e e l i n g of c o n f i d e n c e and s u p p o r t , and--of c o u r s e h e r e s i g n e d a c o u p l e of weeks a f t e r t h a t .

So one does l e a r n i n p a r t y work t h a t peop le i n your p a r t y w i l l d i s a p p o i n t you.

ii /i

Sharp: Did you f e e l t h a t maybe you d i d n ' t want t o work f o r t h e p a r t y anymore ?

Luce: No, I ' v e n e v e r f e l t t h a t . No, I t h i n k I was o l d enough and broad i n s p i r i t enough t o know t h a t t h e r e a r e peop le who make m i s t a k e s i n your p a r t y , maybe i n your f a m i l y , e t c . , and t h a t d o e s n ' t t u r n you o f f l i f e . I n g e n e r a l you go forward. T h a t ' s t h e way I f e e l t o d a y . But I was v e r y d i s i l l u s i o n e d and d i s a p p o i n t e d . i n Wate rga te and what was go ing on i n Washington. But no--my views were , t h e Republ ican p a r t y h a s been h e r e much l o n g e r t h a n M r . Nixon and

Luce: M r . Agnew, and America has been h e r e much longe r , e t c . , and we're going t o go forward wi th our p a r t y and we're going t o b u i l d f o r l o c a l candida tes and s t a t e candida tes and n a t i o n a l candida tes .

I probably s a i d somewhere along t h e l i n e , we should have e l e c t e d Ronald Reagan, a s an I-told-you-so. A s I s a i d we should have e l e c t e d Barry Goldwater r a t h e r t han Lyndon Johnson. [ laughs]

Sharp: Do you remember t a l k i n g , o r d id you know M r . Reagan we l l enough t o t a l k w i th him about ' M r . Nixon and what was happening a f t e r Watergate? I mean r e a l l y t a l k t o him about how it was al l - -?

Luce: I don ' t remember any in-depth conversa t ions about t h e s u b j e c t . I do know t h a t Ronald Reagan used t o say and probably s t i l l does t h a t p a r t of t h e problem i n p a r t y p o l i t i c s i s t h a t people don ' t c a r e f o r t h e wounded along t h e way. I mean, t h e r e a r e people t h a t a r e h u r t - - l e t ' s say they l o s e o r t h e r e ' s a b a t t l e , a controversy and t h e conserva t ives bea t t h e l i b e r a l s . Whatever it may be, t h e r e a r e a l o t of wounded v e t e r a n s along t h e way i n p a r t y p o l i t i c s i n both p a r t i e s . Somebody ought t o c a r e f o r t h o s e people and say , "This i s n ' t j u s t a winner-take-all world, bu t t h o s e a r e people t h a t can be , should be , should cont inue on a s a c t i v e members of t h e pa r ty . " I don ' t know what he r e a l l y s a i d , o t h e r t han what we read i n t h e papers . I know he was very d i s i l l u s i o n e d and d isappoin ted i n what was happening, and I t h i n k he spoke up along t h e way. I don ' t r e c a l l any s p e c i f i c conversa t ion on t h e sub jec t .

Sharp: A s s o r t of an ending no te , I ' d l i k e f o r you t o somehow s t e p back and s o r t of a s s e s s what you saw going on i n t h e Republican p a r t y , t h e C a l i f o r n i a s t a t e Republican p a r t y , when you were v ice-cha i r and then c h a i r . What do t h o s e yea r s br ing back t o you about what was going on?

Luce: The Watergate a f f a i r , of course , i n t r u d e s i n t o anyone's memory on a l l t h e good t h i n g s t h a t were happening, because I t h i n k we had a u n i t e d p a r t y a t t h e t ime. I t h i n k u n i t y was very b ig i n my ques t . We were t i r e d of t h e b icker ing and b a t t l i n g t h a t goes on i n p a r t y p o l i t i c s . It goes on today and always has i n both p a r t i e s . I t ' s no t a way t o win. So we were bent on having a committee of people t h a t were r e p r e s e n t a t i v e of t h e pa r ty . That meant moderate, conserva t ive and l i b e r a l members of t h e Republican pa r ty . We had t h o s e elements represented i n our o f f i c e r s h i p and i n our committee s t r u c t u r e , e t c .

Luce: I t h i n k t h e Republicans had some e x c e l l e n t convent ions along t h e way. We go t Watergate ou t of our systems. We had succes s fu l meetings. I have a scrapbook wi th some of t h e le t ters and s ta tements I had from a l l t h e v a r i o u s speakers t h a t would come.

There was a good f e e l i n g i n C a l i f o r n i a . We su f f e r ed t h e problem of Watergate n a t i o n a l l y , and y e t C a l i f o r n i a was t h e b r i g h t s t a t e .

We had a f i n e c e n t r a l committee o rgan iza t ion ; we had good f i n a n c i a l planning and r e s u l t s i n terms of our fund- ra i s ing a c t i v i t i e s . We had ve ry good o rgan iza t ion . When I became chairman, I i n h e r i t e d a d e f i c i t ,. and we made up t h a t d e f i c i t .- We were developing i n t e r e s t i n g people and good candida tes . A l l of my s t a f f a d v i s e r s have been succes s fu l i n t h e i r ques t . One i s Bruce Nestande, who i s a county supe rv i so r i n Orange County. He was on my s t a f f f o r a couple of yea r s . There a r e many o t h e r s .

I f e e l ve ry good about t h e progress t h a t t h e p a r t y has made i n C a l i f o r n i a . I t h i n k we d i d a good job i n t h o s e days of keeping it un i t ed and organized and people tu rned on and people i n t e r e s t e d . The doors were open. I t h i n k we had a good open f e e l i n g about what we were doing, and t h a t t h e pub l i c perce ived t h a t . It was a good pe r iod o t h e r t h a n Watergate which would be t h e one element t h a t people would s ay , "Oh, you poor guy, you were chairman dur ing Watergate." It d id permeate some of t h e f e e l i n g s dur ing t h e t i m e .

Sharp: Seventy-four was a unique y e a r , I would think--

Luce: Hugh [Houston] Flournoy r a n f o r governor, and he narrowly was defea ted . I f it hadn ' t been f o r Watergate, I t h i n k Hugh Flournoy would have won. And w e had some v i c t o r i e s t h a t y e a r , b u t it was a change of d i r e c t i o n . J e r r y Brown had done a s u c c e s s f u l campaign and was a new person on t h e scene and a ve ry i n t e r e s t i n g one t o t h e media. I t h i n k t h e p u b l i c was d i sappoin ted i n t h e Republican p a r t y because of Watergate.

Ronald Reaean: "A Good P a r t v Worker"

Sharp: Could you say something about M r . Reagan's r o l e i n t h e '74 campaign around t h e s t a t e ?

Luce: Ronald Reagan was t h e b e s t , and s t i l l is , i n p a r t y suppor t . He always was a v a i l a b l e t o do t h e speaking a t va r ious fund-rais ing events f o r va r ious candida tes . He would s i g n many a l e t t e r f o r fund-rais ing work. He was a p a r t y b u i l d e r , and he had a very f u l l schedule t h a t we worked out wi th him on candida tes i n t h e Cal P lan , and o t h e r ways t h a t he coulct he lp t h e pa r ty . He t r a v e l e d t h e s t a t e wi th Hugh Flournoy. I remember s e v e r a l events h e r e where both Gqvernor Reagan and Hugh Flournoy came and spoke. So he was t h e r e whenever needed, l e n t h i s name t o almost any a c t i v i t y , gave us encouragement. We were a l l c a l l e d t o h i s home i n Sacramento on occasion and t o t h e o f f i c e , and we had our Republican Cent ra l Committee board meet wi th him and h i s people. You know, we were i n c l o s e harmony, I t h i n k you would say , during t h o s e yea r s .

Sharp: You might be t h e person t o answer t h i s , bu t t h e r e i s a rumor, o r f e e l i n g o r something, t h a t M r . Reagan was not t o o thoroughly a t tached t o t h e p a r t y and t h a t some of t h e reason f o r t h e dropping away of support on t h e p a r t of c e r t a i n people w i th in C a l i f o r n i a i n '76, favor ing M r . Gerald Ford a s opposed t o favor ing M r . Reagan, that--

Luce: That i s r e a l l y un t rue a s f a r a s my viewpoint goes, because he r e a l l y has given t o t h e p a r t y more than any o t h e r p a r t y person t h a t I have ever worked with. I n terms of hours and ded ica t ion , fund- r a i s i n g abi l i ty--you know, he can r a i s e more money ( cou ld then and s t i l l can) , t han any s i n g l e candida te we've ever had i n our p a r t y i n my genera t ion .

There c e r t a i n l y were candida tes t h a t he favored over o t h e r candida tes i n terms of h i s p re fe rences , bu t he ' d be very c a r e f u l i n pr imar ies . He would never endorse. I t h i n k ph i lo soph ica l ly he would r a t h e r have a candida te t h a t ' s more conserva t ive and more t o h i s l i k i n g . He has h i s preferences , bu t he r e a l l y worked hard f o r t h e pa r ty .

Sharp: Was t h a t gradual? In t h e sense t h a t he d id it more perhaps i n t h e second admin i s t r a t i on t h a t he d id it i n t h e f i r s t ?

Luce: That would be hard t o judge. Fly memory on t h a t s c a l e of how much he p a r t i c i p a t e d between t h e f i r s t and t h e second admin i s t r a t i on i s hard f o r me t o develop. But I t h i n k he was very a c t i v e from t h e t ime of Barry Goldwater--that's where he started--and then of course t o t h e t ime he r an f o r governor. Then he knew t h a t only wi th a ma jo r i t y of Republicans i n t h e l e g i s l a t u r e would he have t h e v i c t o r i e s he would want, so he worked very hard t o e l e c t assemblymen and sena to r s . He continued t h a t onward f o r congressmen, e t c . He was r e a l l y a good p a r t y worker.

Sharp: Are we o u t of t i m e ? - Luce: We a r e , y e s .

Sharp: [ l a u g h s ] Thank you.

Luce: We cou ld go on and on, c o u l d n ' t we.

Sharp: We c o u l d , we cou ld .

i/ i/

T r a n s c r i b e r s : Michele S t a f f o r d Sam Middlebrooks

F i n a l T y p i s t s : John McPherson Keiko Sugimo t o

TAPE GUIDE -- Gordon Luce

I n t e r v i e w 1: 1 3 March 1981 t a p e 1, s i d e A t a p e 1, s i d e B t a p e 2, s i d e A [ s i d e B n o t r e c o r d e d ]

I n t e r v i e w 2: 1 8 February 1981 ' t a p e 3 , s i d e A

t a p e 3 , s i d e B t a p e 4 , s i d e A [ s i d e B n o t r e c o r d e d ]

INDEX -- Gordon ~ u c e *

agency system of adminis t ra t ion , 2, 10-13, 15, 20, 23, 25, 31

Agnew, Spiro, 53 Anderson, C l i f f , 51 appointments, governor's, 15, 30

c o n f l i c t of i n t e r e s t , 16 appiontments, t o o f f i c e , 8-9, 14,

15, 24, 30, 39 Assembly Transportat ion and

Commerce Committee, 37 a t torneys , i n government, 12, 17

Bay Area Rapid Trans i t D i s t r i c t (BART), 36-38

black Americans, 4, 16 Bradford, Robert B . , 12 Brown, Edmund G . , Jr. ( J e r r y ) , 3,

20, 39, 49, 55 Brown, Edmund G . , S r . (Pa t ) , 5, 11,

20, 26 budget, s t a t e , 10 bureaucracy, 8 , 15 Bush, George, 53 Business and Commerce Agency, 10-

11, 21 business and government, 2, 14-17,

18 , 24, 29, 30-32, 39 Business and Transportat ion Agency,

Ca l i fo rn ia , 10-15, 18-21, 27, 30, 33-35, 37, 39-41, 52

cab ine t , governor ' s (Ronald Reagan) , 19, 22-23, 28-31, 41, 47

Ca l i fo rn ia Republican Assembly (CRA), 7

Campbell, William, 51 c i v i l s e rv ice , 12, 14 Clark, William P. , 11, 24 Commission on Ca l i fo rn ia S t a t e

Government Organization and Economy, 11

Congress, U.S., 26 conservat ives, 7, 56 consumer i s s u e s , 3 9 ,

Deaver, Michael K. , 24-25 Democratic pa r ty , Democrats, 3 , 49 deregula t ion , 39, 41 Deukmej i a n , George

campaigns, 3, 49, 51 Disney, Walt, 42

e l e c t i o n campaigns, methods and f inance, 2-7, 49-50, 56

e l ec t ions , 1966, 1, 3-4, 5 , 6, 24, 4 9

e l ec t ions , 1970, 5 , 32, 49 e l e c t i o n s , 1972, 48 e l e c t i o n s , 1974, 55 e l e c t i o n s , 1976, 56 environmental q u a l i t y , 35-36, 38,

42-44

f e d e r a l government, 20, 41-42 Finance, Department o f , Ca l i fo rn ia ,

23. 30 Flournoy, Houston (Hugh), 55-56 Ford, Gerald, 56 Ford, John, 4 freeways (highways), 40-41, 43-44

Gianturco, Adrianne, 20 governor, o f f i c e of (Ronald Reagan),

2, 4, 10, 23-.26, 28-29 access t o , 30-31 and agencies, 23, 31 appointments, 16, 24, 30 cabinet , meetings o f , 19, 22, 23,

28-30, 31 cabinet sec re t a ry , 28-29

* Unless otherwise noted, departments and agencies l i s t e d a r e u n i t s of

Ca l i fo rn ia s t a t e government.

executive assistant, 29 governor's council, 22-23 and the legislature, 22, 25, 26-27

staff, 2, 23, 25, 32 transition, 1966, 1-3, 8

goverhor's council, 22-23 Governor's Survey on Efficiency and

Cost Control, 15-19

Haerle, Paul R., 25 Highway Commission, 13-14, 38, 42 Highway Transportation Agency, 10-

12, 21 highways. - See freeways Home Federal Savings, 8 Hutchinson, Ned, 18, 24

interest groups, 20 issue memos, Reagan administration,

2 8

Keyes, Robert J., 4

Lake Tahoe, Emerald Bay bridge proposal, 36, 43-44

legislature (legislation), Californfa, 13, 22, 25-27, 37-40, 42

and government reorganization, 13, 21, 22

and the governor's office, 22, 26-27

Livermore, Putnam, 48 lobbying, lobbyists, 27, 41 Los Angeles Century Freeway, 41 politics in, 50-51

Martin, Preston, 35, 40 McKinsey Company, 15 media, 3, 16, 26, 42, 52 Meese, Edwin, 111, 24-25 Mineral King, development plan, 42 Mitchell, John, 48

Nestande, Bruce, 55 Nixon, Richard M., 47-48, 53 Nofziger, Franklin C. (Lyn), 48

Pacific Telephone Company, 16 Pereira, William, 30, 38 Price Waterhouse Company, 16 Public Works, Department of, 12-14,

36

Ralph, Leon, 4 Reagan, Nancy, 25 Reagan, Ronald, 1, 5-6 Reagan, Ronald, campaigns, 2, 7, 23,

45-46, 51 Reagan, Ronald, as goveynor, 2, 8,

14, 15, 17, 20, 23, 26, 28, 30- 32, 44

Reagan, Ronald, as president, 26 Reagan, Ronald, and Republican party,

45, 48, 51, 54-56 Reed, Thomas C., 24, 32-34 regulatory agencies, state, 10, 21,

35, 38-39 reorganization, state government,

2, 10-11, 13, 15, 18-23, 27, 34- 35

Republican Associates, 6-7 Republican Federated Women's Clubs,

53 Republican national convention 1968, 46-47 1972, 47

Republican party, Republicans, 1-5, 7, 48-49, 51-56

black registration, 4 Rhyner, Emerson, 12 Richardson, H. L. (Bill), 51 Roberts, Mrs. Norman, 4-5

San Diego, 3 Democratic party in, 2-3 and 1966 gubernatorial transition, 1, 2

politics in, 1-7, 43, 49-51 ~e~ublican party in, 2-3, 6, 7

San Diego Federal Savings, 8

Savings and Loan, Division of, 40 Schmidt, James, 13 Senate Transportation Committee, 37 Sierra Club, 42 Smith, Burton, 35 Smith, George Walker, 4 Smith, Gordon Paul, 32 Smith, William French, 1, 2, 8, 9 Spencer-Roberts Company, 3 Standard Oil Company, 16 Storrs, Eleanor Ring, 4-5, 32

task forces, 11, 15-19, 30, 36, 38 taxation, taxes, 20 transportation, 13, 20, 35-38, 40-

4 4 transition, 1966-67, 1, 8 Tuttle, Holmes, 9

United Republicans of California (UROC), 7

United States Steel Company, 16

Volk, Robert, Jr., 35, 39 voluntary organizations, volunteers,

15-17

Walker, Robert C. , 6-7 Watergate, 54-55 Weinberger, Caspar, 11, 17-18 Williams, Carl, 23 Wilson, Pete, 49, 50 women and politics, 4-6

Regional Oral History Office The Bancrof t Library

University of California Berkeley, California

Government History Documentation Project Ronald Reagan Gubernatorial Era

Verne Orr

BUSINESS LEADERSHIP IN THE DEPARTMENT OF MOTOR VEHICLES AND STATE FINANCE

An Interview Conducted by Gabrielle Morris

1982 - 1983

Copyright @ 1986 by the Regents of the University of California

TABLE OF CONTENTS -- Verne O r r

INTERVIEW HISTORY

BRIEF BIOGRAPHY

I A YOUNG BUSINESSMAN I N SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA Re ta i l i ng : Department S tores and Automobiles Los Angeles County Grand Jury Experience I n v e s t i g a t i n g Abortion "My I n t e r e s t i s i n Government": F i r s t Encounters wi th Ronald

Reagan

I1 BECOMING DIRECTOR OF MOTOR VEHICLES Seeking an Appointment Working wi th Gordon Luce The Department: An H i s t o r i c a l S i d e l i g h t

I11 INSTITUTING ECONOMY AND EFFICIENCY I N THE DMV The DMV and t h e Governor's Task Force Implementing Task Force Recommendations: I l l u s t r a t i o n s ;

Employee Reactions The Di rec to r ' s New Approach t o Auto Reg i s t r a t i on Michael Deaver and t h e Department Business Experience i n Government and Education Budget Dealings; Spec ia l Funds; L e g i s l a t i v e Committees Management Reorganization and Dr ive r ' s License Renewal Employee Suggestions and an Able Deputy, Jay W. Chapman, Jr.

I V FIRST YEAR AS DIRECTOR OF FINANCE: 1970-1971 wor'king wi th Reagan and t h e Cabinet Move from Department of Motor Vehicles t o Department of Finance Looking Back on Caspar Weinberger a s Di rec tor of Finance; Making

Changes i n Finance Senate Confirmation and In t roduc t ion t o t h e Department Taking Charge of Finance: The Withholding I s s u e Choosing S ta f f S t a t e Revenue Est imation; S t a f f i n g from C i v i l Serv ice Program Budgeting vs . Line Item Budgeting; Streamlining t h e

Budget

iii

TAPE GUIDE

INDEX

INTERVIEW HISTORY

Verne Orr was ready f o r a ca ree r change i n November 1966 when a f r i e n d t o l d him t h a t governor-elect Ronald Reagan was looking f o r f i f t y good men t o he lp him run C a l i f o r n i a s t a t e government. Orr had run a c a r dea l e r sh ip , a sav ings and loan , and cha i r ed numerous c i v i c committees. He was f i f t y yea r s o l d , wi th good yea r s ahead, and d i d n ' t want t o j u s t s i t . So h e l e t i t be known t h a t h e was i n t e r e s t e d i n being savings and loan commissioner i n t h e new adminis t ra t ion .

H e was appointed d i r e c t o r of t h e Department of Motor Vehicles i n s t e a d and put h i s MBA t o such good use t h a t h e went on t o s e rve f o r f i v e yea r s a s d i r e c t o r of Reagan's Department of Finance. This i n t e rv i ew desc r ibes t h e methods h e used and some of h i s successes i n t h e s e two departments, a s w e l l a s h i s observa t ions of Governor Reagan and h i s cabine t i n ac t ion .

I n informal , anecdota l s t y l e , Orr exp la ins t h a t h e w a s i n t e r e s t e d i n government r a t h e r than p o l i t i c s , a l though once i n government h e d id begin t o assist on e l e c t i o n campaigns. H i s pe r spec t ive i s t h a t , i n bus iness o r government, t h e job of management i s t o know how t o do bus iness w i th people. With a chuckle, h e r e c a l l e d t h a t he had once argued wi th t h e p re s iden t of t h e Univers i ty of C a l i f o r n i a t h a t " the p re s iden t of any good p i c k l e f ac to ry can run a un ive r s i t y . "

I n t h e Department of Motor Vehic les , O r r pursued t h e recommendations of t h e governor 's t a s k f o r c e on economy i n government by r o t a t i n g employees i n t o new jobs and encouraging them t o t r y new ideas . They succeeded i n reducing t h e t ime taken t o renew a d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e from 60 days t o 10.. I n t h e Department of Finance, Orr w a s r e spons ib l e f o r making t h e budget c u t s t h e governor decreed. He would expla in t h a t t h e department had a job t o do and work with t h e departments t o make t h e c u t s where they would be l e a s t h u r t f u l .

He was perhaps most no tab ly succes s fu l i n h i s dea l ings wi th t h e l e g i s l a t u r e , which had been a t r o u b l e spot f o r t h e admin i s t r a t i on . William Bagley, then a Republican assemblyman, has commented t h a t Orr w a s one of t h e f i r s t of t h e Reagan team t o t a k e t h e t r o u b l e t o come t o l e g i s l a t i v e o f f i c e s and t a l k over problems, and would even put h i s f e e t up on t h e desk a f t e r hours. Orr's view i s t h a t such q u i e t con tac t l eads t o r e s p e c t among persons, which takes away personal animosi ty.

The in te rv iews wi th Orr, recorded on 28 Apr i l 1982 and 5 May 1983, were conducted i n s i m i l a r re laxed and b u s i n e s s l i k e fash ion . O r r was by then Secre ta ry of t h e Air Force f o r P re s iden t Reagan, and t h e in te rv iews were

recorded i n h i s spac ious c o r n e r o f f i c e a t t h e Pentagon, i n armchairs over a cup of co f f ee . Orr d e a l t e a s i l y w i th t h e ques t ions o r t h e o u t l i n e s e n t t o him i n advance, n e i t h e r rush ing t h e in t e rv i ewer nor keeping h i s next appointment waft ing. The t r a n s c r i p t of each in t e rv i ew was s e n t t o him f o r review and r e tu rned promptly. D e t a i l s reques ted were suppl ied and few o t h e r r e v i s i o n s made.

G a b r i e l l e Morris Interviewer-Editor

February 1986 Regional Ora l His tory Of f i ce 486 The Bancroft L ibrary Univers i ty of C a l i f o r n i a a t Berkeley

Regional Ora l His t o r y O f f i c e Room 486 The Bancrof t L ib ra ry

Un ive r s i ty of C a l i f o r n i a Berkeley, ~ a l i f o h i a 94720

iii

B IOGRAPHI CAI, INFORMATION

(P lease p r i n t o r w r i t e c l e a r l y )

Your f u l l name - George Vernon Opr, Jy.

Date .of b i r t h Nov. 12, 1916 P lace of b i r t h Des Moines. Towa

Fa the r ' s f u l l name . George Vernon O r r

E l r t h p l a c e Iowa -.

occupat ion Automobile Wholesal ine RePt .2 UP

Mother's f u l l name Wilhelmina Van Niewaal O r r

B i r t h p l a c e Iowa

Occupation Homemaker

Ages 1-12, Various c i t i e s i n mid-west Where d i d you grow up ? Age 13- San Marino and Pasadena, Calif.

P resen t community Pasadena, Calif

L.D. (Hon) Education B .A Pomona Col lege, MBA Stan fo rd Univ. Pomona Col lege

Occupat ion(s) Ail-i 1 e Deal P P 1Qhh - 01 66

mif. ~ i r . of Motor Vehic les , 1967-69; C a l i f ~ i r . of ~ i n a n c e 1970-75

Yecre ta rv , U.S. A i r Force, 1981-85

i n t e r e s t s a c t i v i t i e s

I A YOUNG BUSINESSMAN I N SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA

[Interview 1: Apr i l 28, 1982]##

Re ta i l i ng : Department S tores and Automobiles

Morris: I ' d l i k e t o begin by ask ing you a l i t t l e b i t about your personal background. Are you a Cal i forn ian?

O r r : No, I was born i n Des Moines, Iowa and moved around t h e country with my family u n t i l I was twelve--no, fou r t een , I guess. I came t o C a l i f o r n i a a t t h e s t a r t of my second y e a r i n high school and I have been a Cal i forn ian eve r s i n c e .

Morris: I n southern Ca l i fo rn i a?

O r r : Always i n southern Ca l i fo rn i a and always i n o r near Pasadena o r San Marino, which is adjacent t o Pasadena.

Morris: Did you go t o the Univers i ty of C a l i f o r n i a ?

O r r : No, I a t tended Pomona College f o r my B.A. and Stanford Univers i ty f o r my M.B.A., g e t t i n g my Bachelor 's i n '37 and my Master 's i n '39.

Morris: So you came. i n t o t h e bus ines s world wi th a--

O r r : I star ted--and I wanted t o be a merchandiser--I s t a r t e d wi th Bullock 's . My ambition was t o become a buyer i n women's ready-to-wear, which is the f a s t moving and h ighly p r o f i t a b l e a r e a of most y e t a i l i n g . And I se.rved wfth Bullock 's i n a t r a i n e e capac i ty and i n o f f i c e c a p a c i t i e s u n t i l t h e s t a r t of World War 11, and t h e day a f t e r P e a r l Harbor I went down t o g e t a commission i n the navy. I was succes s fu l and I

##This symbol i n d i c a t e s t h a t a tape o r a segment of a t a p e has begun o r ended. For a guide t o the tapes s e e page 58.

Orr : went on a c t i v e duty i n A p r i l of '42 , and s t ayed on a c t i v e duty through a couple of months a f t e r V J Day, and then I went back wi th BulLockfs.

But about t h e time--as a m a t t e r of f a c t , t h e morning--that they c a l l e d m e i n t o t e l l me they had a buyer 's p o s i t i o n f o r me ( i n an obviously r e l a t i v e l y small department because i t would have been my f i r s t exper ience) , my f a t h e r and I had the n i g h t before reached t h e conclus ion we would go i n t o bus iness t oge the r i n t h e automobile bus iness , which w a s h i s f i e l d . And s o I t o l d them t h a t I would be l eav ing and I never d id l e a r n t h e department t h a t they were going t o --they had merely t o l d me, "We have some good news. We're going t o make you buyer. " And I s a i d , "Well, b e f o r e you do, I 've got t o t e l l you t h a t I 'm leav ing . I'

So I came wi th in an a c e of g e t t i n g a l i t t l e p a r t of my d e s i r e , bu t I was never d isappoin ted . I made t h e change, so then I became a businessman f o r myself and a p a r t of t h e community, and I was a c t i v e i n a g r e a t many community th ings I could never have done a s a buyer i n a b ig o rgan iza t ion .

Morris : Was t h i s one of your i n t e r e s t s a t t h a t p o i n t a s a young man, t o be--?

O r r : No, f r a n k l y , when you a r e i n a department s t o r e , you don ' t even have t h a t i n t e r e s t . I n those days, department s t o r e people worked s i x days a week. We worked from around e i g h t i n t h e morning u n t i l s i x - t h i r t y o r seven a t n i g h t . I took t h e Big Red Car from Pasadena down and back and t h a t took over an hour each way. You don ' t even have f i f t e e n minutes! And a s a j u n i o r employee, you cou ldn ' t even t a k e time o f f a t lunch t o a t t e n d a luncheon meeting. So I d i d n ' t even have those i n t e r e s t s u n t i l I got i n bus iness f o r myself.

Morrfs.: Were.you i n t e r e s t e d i n going i n t o bus iness f o r yourse l f and being your own boss?

O r r : My f a t h e r began t o t a l k w i th me about i t about t h e time I got o u t of s e r v i c e . It was ve ry apparent t h a t Bullock 's had been extremely hard on my h e a l t h . With a l l due r e s p e c t t o a f i n e f i rm , s i x f u l l days i n which you never saw t h e s u n l i g h t from e i g h t i n the morning u n t i l s i x - t h i r t y a t n i g h t and no t even a Saturday af te rnoon o f f , I was running down h i l l and he f e l t t h a t we could f i n d some bus iness t h a t I would have more freedom i n . We d id look a t h i s i n v e s t i n g i n a business t h a t I could run , such a s a Goodyear T i r e f r a n c h i s e o r something of t h a t s o r t . Then h e f i n a l l y decided t o r e t i r e and we would toge the r buy an automobile dea l e r sh ip . H e was v ice-pres ident of Chrys le r and h e l e f t t he f a c t o r y and we bought a Chrysler dea ler - s h i p .

Morris: Oh, t h a t ' s i n t e r e s t i n g . He went from manufacturing i n t o s a l e s .

O r r : Yes. I n h i s e a r l y days, a s a young marr ied man, he had been i n r e t a i l i n g and then he had gone wi th t h e corpora t ion .

Morris: So the. two of you k ind of l ea rned the business--

Orr : Oh., no, t h a t ' s n o t t r u e . He knew the business and he taught me, and a f t e r about t h r e e o r four yea r s h e became a l e s s a c t i v e p a r t n e r and d id a g r e a t d e a l of t r a v e l i n g . He was one of t h e f i r s t people t o go t o Russia when they opened up t h e country, h e and my mother. He was one of t h e f i r s t people t o t a k e around-the-world t r i p s and go t o c o u n t r i e s which were j u s t opening up because he had t h e freedom and a l s o loved t o t r a v e l and he had comfortable circumstances. So I would run t h e bus ines s and he would t r a v e l and then he would come back and advise me and h e l p me a t t he end of t h e t r i p .

Morris: Did you s h a r e h i s i n t e r e s t i n l e a r n i n g ab6ut p a r t s of t h e world?

O r r : No, I r e a l l y have never been a s e n t h u s i a s t i c a t r a v e l e r a s h e h a s . I have no d e s i r e t o go t o South America. I love Europe. FUe have been over , I th ink , t h r e e t imes. I have a s l i g h t d e s i r e t o go t o Egypt, t h e pyramids and s o f o r t h . But b a s i c a l l y I don' t have much. ambition and oddly enough [wi th] t h i s job I t r a v e l a g r e a t dea l .

Morris: Right , you c e r t a i n l y do! How about t h e community and p o l i t i c a l i n t e r e s t s ?

O r r : None i n p o l i t i c s , none i n p o l i t i c s ; a g r e a t d e a l i n t h e community. Successively I se rved i n so many of t he th ings most bus iness people do--president of t h e Merchant's Assoc ia t ion , p re s iden t of Family Serv ice , chairman of t h e budget d i v i s i o n of Community Chest, p r e s i d e n t of a luncheon c lub , and I f i n a l l y went on t o become p re s iden t of United Way of Los Angeles County, which is t h e o v e r a l l community--

Morris : That ' s a maj o r t a sk .

Los Angeles County Grand Jury Experience

O r r : Yes, t h a t ' s a b i g job. Then, a f t e r we l e f t t he automobile business and I semi- re t i red , I became foreman of t he Los Angeles County Grand Ju ry , which is a fu l l - t ime job .

Morris.: It is a fu l l - t ime job f o r a yea r per iod?

O r r : Yes, f o r one year . The jury meets a t l e a s t t h r e e days a week and the. committees meet on a fou r th day and the foreman usua l ly a t t ends a l l committee meetings. So i t ' s a t l e a s t a four-day job f o r a foreman and a three-and-a-half day job a week f o r j u ro r s . Most j u ro r s a r e e i the.r r e t i r e d men, housewives and homemakers , o r occas iona l ly a younger businessman loaned by a u t i l i t y .

Morris: By a u t i l i t y ?

Orr : U t i l i t i e s have a r a t e s t r u c t u r e i n which your r a t e s a r e based on c o s t p lus whatever t h e commission g ives them a s overhead. So when they loan an execut ive, they r e a l l y i n a s ense g e t i t back i n t h e r a t e s t r u c t u r e , whereas i f U.S. S t e e l o r General Motors loans an execut ive , t h a t ' s j u s t out of t h e i r pockets . They don ' t g e t t h a t back. So u t i l i t i e s have been a l i t t l e more generous i n providing younger execut ives t o t a k e a y e a r o f f .

Morris: I n some p a r t s of t h e s t a t e , t h e r e have been some ques t ions r a i s e d about t h e composition of grand j u r i e s .

Orr : Oh, t h e r e were some ques t ions r a i s e d . Of course, my yea r was 1962 and grand j u r o r s a t t h a t time were nominated by s u p e r i o r cou r t judges, each one of whom could nominate two, and t h e j u d i c i a l sys tem a t t h a t t ime had very few b lack judges and very few Spanish judges and almost no women judges, s o t h a t composition of t h e grand jury nominees were l a r g e l y people t h e judges knew. And i f you don' t have b l ack judges and your whi te judges don ' t know too many b l acks , you've got a skewed r e p r e s e n t a t i o n simply because those were t h e people t h e judges knew and had confidence i n . Since [ then] they have made a v a i l a b l e a way t o broaden i t a l i t t l e b i t . I don ' t know j u s t how i t is. You can e i t h e r vo lun tee r o r pu t your name i n f o r grand jury duty. But t h e t r u t h of t h e mat te r is t h a t i t ' s d i f f i c u l t t o broaden i t because most of your m i n o r i t i e s don ' t have t h e weal th t o g ive up a yea r . The person who is working f o r a l i v i n g simply c a n ' t t ake time o u t t o do i t and the average company i s not going t o g ive you a y e a r o f f .

Morris : To t h e average working--

Orr : To t h e average working minor i ty o r a ma jo r i t y person. It takes e i t h e r a r e t i r e d person o r a homemaker by and l a r g e .

Morris: Tha t ' s an i n t e r e s t i n g commentary. Did the grand jury exper ience g i v e . you some new i n s i g h t s ?

O r r : Oh, y e s , t h e grand jury exper ience was outs tanding and i t r e a l l y whetted my a p p e t i t e f o r government. It was a great--They c a l l i t a d o c t o r a l degree i n county government, being on t h e grand j u r y , and I thoroughly e n j oyed i t .

I n v e s t i g a t i n g Abortion

Morris: What p a r t i c u l a r l y , what a spec t of .government opera t ions?

O r r : I n t e r e s t i n g l y enough, one of t h e th ings t h a t came out of i t was we brought down indic tments on two o r t h r e e a b o r t e r s and I became i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e f i e l d of a b o r t i o n and I s t u d i e d i t and I went around sou the rn C a l i f o r n i a making speeches t o luncheon c lubs on abortion-- n e i t h e r p ro nor con. It was j u s t a n i s s u e t h a t I wanted t o have d iscussed because a t t h a t time t h e word "abortion" would no t appear i n newspapers, and t h e s u b j e c t of my t a l k was abor t ion . But, f o r i n s t a n c e , t h e Long Beach Press Telegram, i n s ay ing t h a t I would come t o speak t o t h e Rotary Club, was say ing , "Mr . O r r , former foreman of t h e grand j u r y , w i l l speak on a s u b j e c t of h i s own choosing." They would not u s e t h e word "abortion" i n a newspaper i n 1963.

Morris: Even i n r e p o r t i n g on your speech af te rwards?

O r r : No.

Morris: Did they cover t h e speech?

O r r : Yes, bu t u sua l ly i t w a s no t covered i n t h a t s ense . The reason I was i n t e r e s t e d , a s you may know, we had more abor t ions than l i v e b i r t h s i n Los Angeles County and y e t t he word wouldn ' t even b e d iscussed i n t h e newspaper. I was simply say ing , "This is a subj e c t t h a t needs t o be t a l k e d about." I would g ive s t a t i s t i c s , I would give some of the hor ro r s t o r i e s about abo r t ions , and I wasn ' t t r y i n g t o sway people t o do any more than t o recognize t h a t we had a b i g problem.

Morris : What kind of a response d i d you g e t ?

O r r : Oh, pe.ople were f a s c i n a t e d because abor t ion was such an under-the- t a b l e thfng . It wasn ' t even t a lked about a t co f f ees o r c o c k t a i l p a r t i e s , and y e t a s an automobile d e a l e r , I would have men d r i v e i n t o my shop and ask t h e shop s teward, "Where can I g e t an abor t ion f o r my daugh-t e r ? " People were--

Morris : Good heavens. Because they knew you were i n t e r e s t e d in--

O r r : No, no, t h i s was long b e f o r e I became i n t e r e s t e d in- - I t was j u s t t h a t people seek adv ice on abor t ions because a t t h a t time doctors cou ldn ' t g ive abor t ions no r g i v e advice on i t . They would seek i t anywhere and abor t ions were h o r r i b l e . They were performed i n a l l manner of hideous ,ways. That was what we l ea rned i n our grand jury i n v e s t i g a t i o n .

We would say t o some v i c t i m , "Where d id you g e t advice t o go here?" 'T asked t h e t a x i d r i v e r , I ' o r some unbel ievable sou rce of in format ion .

Morris: Did you reach a p o i n t where you wanted t o a s s i s t i n some k ind of p u b l i c program?

O r r : No, no, I was j u s t f a s c i n a t e d a s an outcome of my grand j u r y experience. I d fd o f f e r counsel and advice t o Ronald Reagan a t t h e t ime t h a t the a b o r t i o n b i l l came t o his desk, and I was one of those t h a t f e l t h e should s i g n i t . He d id s i g n i t and l a t e r he r e g r e t t e d s i g n i n g i t . He has s i n c e s t a t e d he wished he hadn ' t s i gned i t .

Morris: . Because of his thoughts on a b o r t i o n a s a s o c i a l concern o r because of t h e s p e c i f i c l e g i s l a t i o n ?

O r r : Bas ica l ly Ronald Reagan i s opposed t o abo r t ion f o r a very pe r sona l reason. H i s son Mike i s an adopted boy and he looks a t Mike and t h i n k s , "If t he re had been abor t ion when Mike was born t h i s c h i l d migh-t have been abor t ed and I would never have had t h i s wonderful, f i n e son," which i s a very human f e e l i n g . The l e g i s l a t i o n d i d n ' t prove t o be what any of u s had hoped because i t was designed around a p o s i t i o n c e r t i f y i n g t h a t t h i s abo r t ion was necessary f o r t he l i f e and t h e h e a l t h of t he mother. What i t turned out was t h a t anyone who wanted an abor t ion could buy such a c e r t i f i c a t e from a phys ic ian f o r f i t y d o l l a r s , from almost a quack t h a t would come i n , s i t a t t h e bedside, a sk a dozen ques t ions , and c e r t i f y t h a t t h i s woman needs an abor t ion , and t h a t was no t what t h e governor had i n mind when h e s igned i t . H e genuinely was not expec t ing i t t o become a wholesale permission f o r abo r t ions a t f i f t y d o l l a r s more than the going p r i c e .

Morris: That is o f t e n t h e case w i t h s o c i a l innovat ion, i s n ' t i t ? It doesn ' t work out .

O r r : Yes, i t d i d n ' t work o u t a s Ronald Reagan had a n t i c i p a t e d .

"My I n t e r e s t i s i n Government": F i r s t Encounters w i th Ronald Reagan

Morris,: You s a i d you weren ' t t oo i n t e r e s t e d i n p o l i t i c s p e r s e .

O r r : I have no t been i n t e r e s t e d i n p o l i t i c s ., I am i n t e r e s t e d i n government. I only s e r v e i n p o l i t i c s because you c a n ' t be i n government unless you become ac t ive . i n p o l i t i c s ! Your pa r ty has t o win i n o rde r f o r you t o g e t i n t o government, and I took no p a r t i n t h e campaign t h a t e l e c t e d Ronald Reagan govemor , o t h e r than vo t ing , obviously, f o r h i m . I am a Republi.can and I ' m a conserva t ive . But I d i d n ' t r i n g doorbe l l s and I have never belonged t o t h e Republican c e n t r a l committee nor t o any --I belong t o t h e l o c a l Pasadena Republican committee, bu t I have never done much work. My i n t e r e s t i s i n government. S ince I ' v e got i n government, I h.ave done more work p o l i t i c a l l y , bu t I am not what you would c a l l a devoted p r e c i n c t type of worker.

Morris: The e l e c t i o n campaigns themselves do n o t p a r t i c u l a r l y i n t e r e s t you?

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

I have been on them s i n c e I have worked wi th Ronald Reagan, b u t i t was never an i n t e r e s t a s much a s community func t ions l i k e Community Chest and Family Serv ice . Some people go t o spend t h e i r l i f e working i n Republican o r Democratic c i r c l e s ; I s p e n t mine o n \ o t h e r t h ings . Then when I got i n t e r e s t e d i n government, I became somewhat more a c t i v e , bu t I am not v i t a l l y a p a r t of any p o l i t i c a l ope ra t ion .

W e l l , I ' m a Republican and I have been t o t h e conventions and I work hard f o r Ronald Reagan, bu t i t was more an of fshoot of my work f o r him than a deep i n t e r e s t i n p o l i t i c s .

Had you had an occasion t o meet M r . Reagan before--?

Y e s . When he was th inking about running, Holmes T u t t l e , who was an automobile d e a l e r and a very good f r i e n d of mine, s e t up a l i t t l e luncheon a t t h e Huntington Hotel i n Pasadena f o r twelve o r fou r t een business persons. I was i n v i t e d . Holmes T u t t l e s tood up and he s a i d , " I ' ve got a man h e r e t h a t i s th inking of running f o r governor. He's go t a phi lsophy t h a t I be l i eve i n and I want him t o t e l l you what h i s philosophy is." So a t t h i s l i t t l e l u n c h e o n f o r a dozen people , Ronald Reagan s tood up and s a i d he was g iv ing thought t o running and, b e l i e v e m e , h e thought t h e r e was too much f a t i n government and i f he got e l e c t e d , h e was bound and determined t o s e e i t ended. The f i r s t t h ing h e would do would be [ t o ] c a l l i n a l l of t h e department heads and say , "I want you t o c u t your budget t e n percent ." And s o I l e f t t he meet- i ng without r e a l i z i n g t h a t a yea r and a h a l f l a t e r , I would be one of the people c a l l e d i n and [ t o l d ] "cut t e n percent . "

[laughs] When would t h i s have been?

T h i s would have been i n '66, I imagine. It w a s probably i n e a r l y '66 o r l a t e '65, somewhere i n t h a t neighborhood.

Who e l s e d id M r . T u t t l e i n v i t e ?

I have no i d e a any more. I j u s t remember s i t t i n g i n t h a t l i t t l e diningroom a t t h e Huntington and hea r ing t h i s good-looking gentleman a r t i c u l a t e h i s phi losphy.

You presumably were aware of him. You had seen him i n a f i l m a t some p o i n t ?

No, I don ' t go t o movies. I don ' t t h ink I was even aware of t he name of Ronald Reagan. I don ' t fol low movies a t a l l .

Morris: There wasn ' t much con tac t between t h e business world and t h e f i l m indus t r y ?

Orr : A t l e a s t I d i d n ' t know Ronald Reagan from anyone.

Morris: Were t h e o t h e r people a t the luncheon people t h a t you a l ready knew through the--

O r r : Y e s , I a m p r e t t y s u r e they w e r e Pasadena bus iness persons whom I knew, b u t I j u s t don ' t happen t o remember who was the re .

Morris: It w a s a Pasadena group?

O r r : Y e s . Holmes .was j u s t doing t h i s around Los Angeles i n d i f f e r e n t l i t t l e - - h e was making a campaign of this and I imagine he had dozens of t h e s e luncheons i n Bel l f lower and Pa los Verdes and Santa Monica and Pomona.

Morris: It's a good way t o s t a r t bu i ld ing a base.

O r r : Oh., h e ' s been one of Ronald Reagan's s t r o n g e s t boos t e r s and h e was widely known i n t h e automobile i n d u s t r y , and I wouldn't be a t a l l s u r p r i s e d i f t h e r e weren ' t o t h e r automobile dea l e r s t h e r e f o r that reason.

Morris: Right. I don ' t g e t t h e s ense t h a t M r . T u t t l e himself had been t e r r i b l y a c t i v e i n p o l i t i c s and government.

O r r : I don't know how much i n p o l i t i c s , b u t Holmes T u t t l e has been a n out- s t and ing fund r a i s e r f o r yea r s i n good causes. Now, whether t hose were government o r whether they were l i k e community c h e s t th ings o r s cho la r sh ips , Holmes has t h e capac i ty . H e i s well-to-do himself and he t r a v e l s i n c i r c l e s of well-to-do people. He has t h e capac i ty t o c a l l up and say , "Look, I want you t o buy t e n t i c k e t s a t a hundred d o l l a r s a p l a t e f o r t h i s o r t h a t ."

Morris: No f u s s i n g around, j u s t do i t .

O r r : Oh, h e comes on s t r o n g and, of course, by t h e same token, h e g e t s a l l k inds of c a l l s back because t h e s e a r e "you s c r a t c h my back, 1'11 s c r a t c h yours . ' I So I am s u r e he gives a g r e a t dea l . Other people w i l l c a l l him and say , "Holmes, I bought. a t a b l e t o your Red Cross d inner . Now, I want you t o buy a t a b l e t o my whatever. I' But I don ' t know how much a c t i v i t y Holmes had had i n government. I suspec t very l i t t l e up t o t h a t p o i n t , bu t I don ' t know because I wasn ' t a c t i v e i n government.

I1 BECOMING DIRECTOR OF MOTOR VEHICLES

Seeking an Appointment

Morris: Did you then t ake p a r t i n t h e campaign o r s i t on a committee o r anyth ing?

O r r : No, none; none. What happened was a t t h a t t i m e I was p r e s i d e n t of a sav ings and loans c a l l e d Inves to r s Savings and Loans i n Pasadena, and L t was owned by a l a r g e sav ings and loans chain c a l l e d Imper ia l . The man who headed Imper ia l had been my b e s t f r i e n d and h e had gone t o t h e head of t h e chain. I took h i s p l a c e a s head of t h e branch i n Pasadena, b u t f r i endsh ip and business d i d n ' t mix very w e l l and I d i d n ' t enjoy working f o r him. Our r e l a t i o n s h i p wasn ' t smooth and s o November 1, I submit ted my r e s i g n a t i o n and t o l d him i t would be e f f e c t i v e December 31, which gave him two months t o f i n d a successor . On November 5 o r 6 , Ronald Reagan was e l e c t e d i n t h e normal course of events and one of my f r i e n d s came rushing i n a week o r two l a t e r and h e s a i d , "Verne, Ronald Reagan i s looking .for f i f t y good people t o run h i s government and one of t he jobs open i s t h e commissioner of savings and loans . You have had experience a s p re s iden t . Why don' t you apply t o become t h e commissioner of sav ings and loans?"

I was a young guy a t t h e t ime. I had t o b e j u s t f i f t y and I had good yea r s ahead and I d i d n ' t want t o j u s t s i t . The people who headed up t h e sc reen ing committee i n Los Angeles were people l i k e Holmes T u t t l e t h a t had promoted Ronald Reagan and I knew ha l f a dozen of them. One of them was p re s iden t of Claremont Men's College and one of them was an a t to rney t h a t I knew, s o t h a t sounded l i k e a very good th ing . I inqu i r ed where was the sav ings and loan commissioner's o f f i c e and they t o l d me i t was Los Angeles and I could l i v e a t home; t h a t would be n i c e , and t h e job i n t e r e s t e d me. I had d e a l t w i t h t h e commissioner a g r e a t d e a l when I was p r e s i d e n t of the sav ings and loan. I knew i t was a p r e s t i g i o u s job because i t c o n t r o l l e d a l l - o f - t h e branch- ing of sav ings and loan and people pa id l o t s of heed. So I l e t i t be known I would be very i n t e r e s t e d i n being Ronald Reagan's savings and loan commissioner.

Morris: Did you c a l l up, drop a l i n e , o r t e l l a f r i e n d to--

O r r : O h , ye s , I a c t i v e l y worked a t i t . I c a l l e d Holmes T u t t l e o r wrote h i m , I don ' t know which, and I c a l l e d o r wrote t h e o t h e r people on t h e committee. I even wrote somebody back i n Washington t h a t was h e r e on a f e d e r a l c o d s s i o n t h a t I knew and s a i d , "If you could p u t i n a good word w i t h your law p a r t n e r who sits on the screening committee, I ' d be de l igh ted ."

So I a c t i v e l y sought the job and New Year 's Eve (Ronald Reagan was t o t a k e o f f i c e t h e next day) , I got a c a l l from one of my f r i e n d s on t h e sc reen ing committee and [he] s a i d , "Verne, would you be i n t e r e s t e d i n becoming t h e sav ings and loan commissioner." .I s a i d , "Well, I ' m i n t e r e s t e d i n becoming t h e sav ings and loan commissioner. l1

He s a i d , "I am s o r r y , we c a n ' t o f f e r you t h a t . " He d i d n ' t t e l l me why, b u t h e s a i d , "I t h i n k t h e governor might b e i n t e r e s t e d i n t a l k i n g wi th you about becoming h i s d i r e c t o r of motor veh ic l e s . " I s a i d , ' m e r e i s the o f f i c e , " because I d i d n ' t want t o move. H e s a i d , 'Wait j u s t a minute and 1'11 f i n d out ." So he he ld h i s hand over t h e phone and I could h e a r t he conversa t ion . They s a i d , "They have an o f f i c e i n Sacramento and one i n San Francisco and one i n Los Angeles . I 1 He came back on t h e phone and t o l d m e t h a t and he s a i d , "I am s u r e you probably could run i t from t h e i r o f f i c e i n Los Angeles i f you want." I s a i d , "Now, t h a t sounds good." I had been an automobile d e a l e r f i f t e e n yea r s and was looking f o r a cha l lenge , and s o I s a i d , "I'll accept i f i t ' s o f f e r e d t o me."

It f i n a l l y was o f f e r e d t o m e i n February, roughly t h e twen t i e th , and I d i d n ' t know much about t he department, so I ran down t o t h e Pasadena Library t o look up t h e s t a t e budget. And I found t o my tremendous s u r p r i s e [ t h a t ] t h e Department of Motor Vehicles had 6,600 people and t h e sav ings and loans commission had two hundred. I had no i d e a what I was g e t t i n g i n t o , bu t I a l s o found out t h a t of t h e 6,600, 6,600--not t h a t many b u t 4,500 of them--were loca t ed i n Sacramento, a hundred of them were loca t ed i n Los Angeles, and t h e rest of them were loca t ed i n l i t t l e t e n and twenty-five o r t h i r t y - . person o f f i c e s i n Pomona and Los Angeles, a l l over t h e s t a t e .

Morris : The p l aces where you go t o g e t your l i c e n s e .

O r r : Where you go t o g e t your l i c e n s e , and I quickly l ea rned t h a t wh i l e you can run i t from Los Angeles, you cou ldn ' t run i t very w e l l because everything was i n Sacramento--the l e g i s l a t u r e , t h e governor, t h e cab ine t , t h e budget dec is ions . Los Angeles was simply a smal l branch

- -

o f f i c e t o ge t your l i c e n s e . So it involved then having t o move t o Sacramento. I went up t h e r e on February 22 because the governor a t t h a t t i m e , i n t r y i n g t o decrease s t a t e expenditures , had decreed t h a t he would l i k e s t a t e employees t o work on Washington's b i r thday , which was a ho l iday , and was gree ted wi th a g r e a t l a c k of enthusiasm.

O r r : When I repor t ed t o t h e department, ou t of 6,600 people, my guess i s not more than t h r e e o r fou r hundred were working. The r e s t of the people j u s t s a i d , "To heck with you, governor, i t ' s a hol iday ." A l l of the top people w e r e t h e r e , of course , d i v i s i o n c h i e f s , t o meet m e .

Morris: It was on t h i s non-working holiday--

O r r : That I went up t o Sacramento and I was r e a l l y going up t o s e e about s t a r t i n g t o work immediately, b u t Gordon Luce, t h e head of Business and Transpor ta t ion , suggested t h a t maybe j u s t make i t an even March 1. So there's only f i v e o r s i x days, i nc lud ing a weekend, I t h i n k , i n t he re . So I went back t o Los Angeles and moved up o r went up t o s t a y on March 1.

Morris: Did you move your family up?

Orr : We ren ted a l l of t h e t ime I was i n Sacramento. For the f i r s t year we r en ted a n apartment and f o r t h e next seven yea r s we r en ted a house, and w e fu rn i shed i t . It w a s not r en t ed w i t h f u r n i t u r e . But w e r e a l l y never moved up t h e r e . Our ch i ld ren were i n high school and M r s . O r r only came up occas iona l ly . I f t h e r e was e n t e r t a i n i n g t o do e i t h e r by us or f o r us , s h e would come up. But b a s i c a l l y t h e e n t i r e e i g h t y e a r s , I flew down Friday n i g h t s and f lew back up Monday mornings e a r l y . So we never e f f e c t i v e l y l i v e d t h e r e except we d id have a home and p l a c e t o hang our h a t s .

Morris: That sounds l i k e from Monday through Friday you r e a l l y pu t a l l of your e f f o r t and concentration--

O r r : Oh, s o much s o t h a t my people had t o f i n a l l y cau t ion me. Because I d i d n ' t have a w i fe up t h e r e , I s t a r t e d c a l l i n g s t a f f meetings a t f i v e o 'c lock. It d i d n ' t make any d i f f e r e n c e t o me--a l i t t l e l i k e J e r r y Brown d id a c t u a l l y . It made no d i f f e r e n c e t o me when I got home because I was j u s t going t o p u t something i n t h e oven and a f t e r a few months of t h i s they f i n a l l y s a i d t o me, " M r . O r r , i f you wouldn't mind,we have f ami l i e s and t h e s e s t a f f meetings t h a t go on u n t i l seven- th i r ty o r e i g h t a r e a b i g d i s r u p t i o n t o our f a m i l i e s . Could we s t a r t t o have them a t some o t h e r time?" Of course , I j u s t hadn ' t thought of i t because my time was s o f r e e .

Morris: Did you have a s e s s i o n with by then Governor Reagan a t any p o i n t ?

O r r : Never d id ; no, never d id .

Morris : With. somebody i n t h e governor 's o f f i c e ?

O r r : The screening committee recomended me; h i s personnel people, ,

inc luding Tom Reed, who is now back here .

Morris: He's working f o r you, i s n ' t he?

O r r : No, he works f o r B i l l Clark over i n t h e White House. But Tom was a f o r m e r Air Force s e c r e t a r y . He s a t i n t h i s o f f i c e f o r a yea r . He c a l l e d me t o a c t u a l l y of f .e r me t h e job. I never d id meet Ronald Reagan a t t h a t time.

Working with Gordon Luce

Morris: A t some p o i n t a f t e r you g o t t o Sacramento, d id h e o r somebody on t h e immediate governor 's o f f i c e s t a f f s i t down and t e l l you-what they had i n -mind?

I

Orr: No, I t h i n k no t . I t h i n k t h e screening c o d t t e e chose me and made t h e recommendation t o h i s people--partly maybe because I was f a i r l y well-known. I had done a l l of t h e s e th ings . I had been p r e s i d e n t of t h e United Way i n Los Angeles County, foreman of t h e grand ju ry . I probably was not an unknown q u a n t i t y . So I d i d n ' t a c t u a l l y i n t e rv i ew [with] t h e governor.

Morris: I was th ink ing t h e o t h e r way around, some k ind of a b r i e f i n g on what they had i n mind f o r the--

Orr : That took p l a c e when I went up on February 22. Gordon Luce then o u t l i n e d h i s d e s i r e s on t h e job.

Morris : Had you had any bus iness dealing's w i th Gordon Luce a t t h a t p o i n t ?

O r r : I had never met him, never m e t him.

Morris: Was h e a l ready i n t h e sav ings and loan world?

O r r : Yes, Gordon Luce was a l ready wi th t h e sav ings and loan i n San Diego. When I say I never met him, I d o n ' t r e c a l l . I f I met him, i t would have been c a s u a l l y a t a convention because he was not an acquaintance of mine ,5n t h e normal sense .

Morris: Do you remember what kinds of concerns he had about t h e motor v e h i c l e department ?

Orr : S p e c i f i c a l l y , of course , our b i g concern was economy and e f f i c i e n c y a t t h a t time. And one of t h e reasons I go t t h e job , t h e former d i r e c t o r , Tom Br igh t was n o t a bad d i r e c t o r , a l though h e was appointed by P a t Brown and was a Democrat I presume. He was a c a r e e r i s t , s o you don ' t know--

Morris : Yes, he. went back t o Goodwin Knight 's admin i s t r a t i on .

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Goodwin Knight, and w i t h c a r e e r i s t s you r e a l l y don ' t know how they vote . It d i d n ' t make any d i f f e rence . P a r t of t h e problem, however, w a s t h a t when Ronald Reagan announced t h a t he wanted a t e n pe rcen t c u t i n every department a s I s a i d h e had promised he would do, t h e r e p o r t e r s went t o Tom Br ight and they s a i d , "How w i l l t h i s a f f e c t t h e department?" His answer was, "People w i l l j u s t have t o s t a n d i n l i n e longe r , I f and t h a t was n o t a response t h a t p leased Ronald Reagan. That was not h i s idea . So t h a t s h a t t e r e d any p o s s i b i l i t y t h a t Tom Br ight would b e s e l e c t e d , even i f o therwise h e might have been, simply because Ronald Reagan d id not i n t e n d t o make people s t a n d i n l i n e longer . He wanted t o make th ings more e f f i c i e n t .

By t h e t i m e you go t t he re , was t h e t a s k f o r c e on e f f i c i e n c y and econony working?

No, i t came i n a l i t t l e l a t e r .

Gordon Luce t o l d you t h i s was going t o be--

I don ' t remember whether he d id o r n o t , b u t somewhere along t h e l i n e i t was made c l e a r t h a t t h e r e would be such a t a s k fo rce . But I don ' t b e l i e v e they were t h e r e when I got t h e r e March 1. I don ' t r e c a l l , b u t I don ' t t h i n k s o .

So you were r e a l l y t h e r e during the shake-down per iod .

I got t h e r e . q u i t e soon, March 1, and he had j u s t been i n o f f i c e two months.

Was Gordon Luce a l ready func t ioning a s s e c r e t a r y of t h e agency?

Yes, Business and Transpor ta t ion .

Would you r e c a l l t h e f i r s t time you met a s a group w i t h the people w i th in h i s agency?

Not s p e c i f i c a l l y . Gordon used t o have meetings a t f i r s t . Gordon r an the agency wi th no he lp . He had an a s s i s t a n t who was l i t t l e more than an execut ive type of--I don ' t want t o say e r rand boy, b u t j u s t an aide--and one s e c r e t a r y . The o r i g i n a l i d e a of Ronald Reagan had been t h a t h i s agencies would be very t h i n . He d i d n ' t want bu t a person and they had a t one time, a s you may know, t a l k e d of p u t t i n g them over i n t h e c a p i t o l . They were each going t o have an o f f i c e j u s t where f inance i s , where Hugh Flournoy's o f f i c e i s . They were going t o c u t t h a t up and each of t h e f o u r s e c r e t a r i e s j u s t have h i s o f f i c e the.re .

So a t f i r s t a l l of t h e meetings wi th Gordon would e i t h e r be one- on-one o r t h e r e would b e j u s t h i s approximately t e n department heads meeting wi th him. Over t h e y e a r s , t h e agencies g o t b igger and he

O r r : f i r s t go t a deputy and then I began t o d e a l almost exc lus ive ly wi th t h e deputy a s anyone does when an agency has a deputy because t h e p r i n c i p a l goes o f f t o cab ine t meetings and he ' s working away from the o f f i c e a l l of t h e time and the deputy s t a r t s t o handle t h e d e t a i l s . Then subsequent ly, a s t h e admin i s t r a t i on progressed, some of t h e agencies got b igger and b igger and they began t o have a l i f e of t h e i r own.

Morris: Some of th.e departments w i t h i n the agency?

O r r : No, some of t h e agency s e c r e t a r i a t s . I suspec t t h a t t h e Health and Human Se rv ice s e c r e t a r i a t may have grown t o f i f t e e n o r twenty people and I am s u r e t h a t t h e r e were e i g h t o r t e n i n t he Business and Transpor ta t ion Agency by the t i m e w e l e f t . F i r s t , they need a l e g i s l a t i v e person t o coord ina te l e g i s l a t i o n and then they dec ide they need a pub l i c r e l a t i o n s person t o coord ina te PR--you know how i t goes --and a l l of t h e s e th ings tend t o grow.

Morris: It's s o r t of t h e l i f e cyc l e of an o rgan iza t ion .

O r r : Of a government agency, yes . But Gordon always had, a s long a s I can remember, a luncheon a t l e a s t once a month. He used t o have i t a t A ~ ~ o N o ' s . I b e l i e v e t h e name was Tony.

Morris : Right near the--

O r r : I n an o l d house c l o s e t o t h e c a p i t o l . We would s i t up on t h e second f l o o r and have an agenda t h a t was p a r t l y s o c i a l and p a r t l y Gordon would go over a l l of t h e concerns t h a t had been passed t o him from t h e cab ine t . But , t h e bulk of my a c t i v i t i e s wi th Gordon were s t r i c t l y one-to-one e i t h e r over t h e phone or--and h e operated wi th a very loose r e i n and I th ink gave me l o t s of freedom.

The Department: An H i s t o r i c a l S ide l igh tl/#

Morris: Did you have a r e a l s ense of how the Business and Transpor ta t ion Agency a s a u n i t funct ioned?

O r r : Not when I we.nt up the re , I had none. I j u s t knew t h a t my boss would be Gordon Luce and I would. r epo r t t o t h e governor through him.

Morris: But d id you develop a working r e l a t i o n s h i p between and amongst t he departments i n t h e agency?

O r r : No, the agency was such t h a t t h e r e was very l i t t l e connuunity of i n t e r e s t . I developed a working r e l a t i o n s h i p wi th t h e Department of Transpor ta t ion , which i s p r imar i ly t h e Div is ion of Highways, and

O r r : w i t h t h e Highway P a t r o l , which was Commissioner Sul l ivan . Our i n t e r e s t s were c l o s e and we used t o meet q u i t e f r equen t ly because we and t h e p a t r o l and t o some e x t e n t t h e highways a r e very c lose ly in t e r tw ined . A s you may know, a t one time t h e Highway P a t r o l was a d i v i s i o n of the Department of Motor Vehicles .

Morris: Oh, it was?

O r r : O h , y e s , i t was made an independent group around 1920, bu t i t 's f a s c i n a t i n g i f you look a t t h e s t a r s . The d i r e c t o r of Motor Vehic les has a b i g pol ice- type s t a r o r badge and i t has fou r s t a r s on i t , and t h e commissioner of t h e Highway P a t r o l has t h r e e s t a r s and t h a t was because h e was a t one time j u n i o r t o - t h e d i r e c t o r and worked f o r t h e d i r e c t o r of motor v e h i c l e s .

Morris: But t h a t had a l r eady been s t r a i g h t e n e d out by the t ime you got t h e r e .

O r r : Oh, long ago, be fo re I got t h e r e , long ago.

I11 INSTITUTING ECONOMY AND EFFICIENCY I N THE DMV

The DMV and t h e Governor's Task Force

Morris: Let m e back t r a c k a l i t t l e b i t . How d i d t h e governor 's t a s k f o r c e on e f f i c i e n c y and economy r e l a t e t o your department? Did you s e e t h e management consu l t an t s?

Orr : A l l r i g h t , l e t m e t e l l you how they r e l a t e d . As I remember i t , they probably s e n t i n about twelve people t o s t a r t , of whom s i x s tayed around f o r a couple o r t h r e e weeks and s i x s t ayed around f o r two o r t h r e e months, and they d id a f a n t a s t i c job because they had no guidance and no agenda. They s t a r t e d out a t t h e very bottom of t h e o rgan iza t ion and they would s i t wi th t h e mail c l e r k and watch h e r open mai l and ask ques t ions and then fo l low t h e m a i l a l l through our block--have you been the re? Do you know Motor veh ic l e s?

Morris: I don ' t a c t u a l l y .

O r r : It is two bu i ld ings i n Sacramento, one of which is s i x f l o o r s t a l l and a b lock i n each dimension and the o t h e r one across t he s t r e e t is a h a l f block and about t h r e e s t o r i e s . So they assigned people t o fo l low t h e mail . They assigned people t o te lephone desks and they would j u s t s i t t h e r e and watch what happened. Then when they were thoroughly s a t i s f i e d they understood t h a t task , they followed t h e mail t o t h e next desk and the next desk, and they would s p l i t up. I f i t was d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e s , s e v e r a l of t he team would fo l low app l i - c a t i o n s around; i f i t was r e g i s t r a t i o n , same t h i n g ; i f i t was d r i v e r improvement a n a l y s t s which a r e t r y i n g t o t ake c a r e of people who g e t too many tickets--and s o they spent a l l of t h i s time i n s tudying a department i n a way I never could. The r e a l advantage was they came be fo re our f e e t were i n concrete . I f you come a f t e r somebody has run t h e department a y e a r , he i s convinced t h a t t he re a r e no recommendations worthwhile--"I know how t o run i t , don ' t t e l l me . " But because I was new and I d i d n ' t know how t o run i t any more than they d i d , they got i n i n time before I was entrenched.

Implementing Task Force Recommendations: I l l u s t r a t i o n s ; Employee React Tons

Morris : This sounds l i k e t h e o ld c1ass:ic t ime and motion s.tudy.

O r r : No, i t r e a l l y wasn ' t . They weren ' t making any e f f o r t a t a l l t o s ay , . "You've got too many people doing t h i s job . I 1 They were making e f f o r t s , however, t o say , "Here a r e jobs t h a t don ' t even need t o be done. Here a r e ways i n which you can e l imina te func t ions of your department." I came over t o time and motion s tudy . I p u t one i n e f f e c t when I was t h e r e , bu t t h e o r i g i n a l one wasn ' t .

Now, l e t me give you an i l l u s t r a t i o n . When I came i n t o the department, i f you came over from Germany wi th a German d r i v e r t s l i c e n s e and you were a t t ached t o the consula te o r t h e embassy o r you were a business person and you were going t o l i v e two o r t h r e e y e a r s i n Ca l i fo rn i a , you would go i n and g e t a Ca l i fo rn i a d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e . We would then take from you your German d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e and send i t up and f i l e i t i n Sacramento under your name and then when i t came time f o r you t o go back t o Germany, you would go i n t o an o f f i c e and you would say , "I want t o su r r ende r my C a l i f o r n i a l i c e n s e . I want my German l i c e n s e back." We would send word and Sacramento would f i n d your German l i c e n s e and mai l i t t o you.

I got i n t o t h i s because we l o s t a German l i c e n s e and t h e man was unbel ievably f u r i o u s . A German l i c e n s e i s extremely hard t o g e t and c o s t s hundreds of d o l l a r s . It i s nothing l i k e an American l i c e n s e . The t a s k f o r c e came along, and the reason why we took t h e l i c e n s e away is we d i d n ' t want people t o have two, s o i f you got s o many t i c k e t s on your American l i c e n s e , t h e nex t t ime you a r e s topped you show a German l i c e n s e . The t a s k fo rce came along and s a i d , "Why don ' t you simply stamp on t h e German l i c e n s e one rubber stamp t h a t s ays , 'Not v a l i d f o r d r iv ing i n C a l i f o r n i a , ' and hand i t back t o t he person who then keeps i t i n h i s own possession. You don ' t have t o worry about l o s i n g i t ." It saved us two c l e r k s , a l l t h e m a i l , and b i n s much b igge r than t h i s room because we had tens of thousands of f o r e i g n l i c e n s e s s tacked up t h a t we were keeping.

Morris: I n C a l i f o r n i a ?

O r r : Yes, we had thousands and thousands. Well, t h e i r whole procedure was li'ke t h i s . They were f ind ing ways t o s a y , "You don' t need to do i t t h a t way, do i t t h i s way ." Now, t h a t ' s a s imple one. You wonder why nobody thought of i t , but i t took t h a t t a s k f o r c e t o s ay , "You can do t h i s a l o t s impler ."

Morris: How d id t h e people, t h e c a r e e r employees of t h e department, f e e l about i t ?

O r r : O h , they r e a c t e d ~ 5 t h . ho r ro r . I t h i n k 9 t ime t h a t you've done a job you a r e convinced t h a t ' s t h e b e s t way t o go. Let me t e l l you what happened. The team s t ayed around about s i x months be fo re t h e f i n a l r e p o r t was i s s u e d and they had approximately 110 recommendations f o r t h e Department of Motor V e h i c l e s . So I c a l l e d ou r people i n and they looked a t them and wi th g r e a t r e l u c t a n c e they found fou r t h a t they th.ougb.t they could implement ; a l l t h e r e s t were garbage.

Morris: This i s your middle management?

O r r : No, t h i s is my top management. The top management i n t he Department of Motor Vehicles a r e almost e n t i r e l y bureaucra ts . Out of 6,600 people, I had two a s s i s t a n t s , one of whom was permanently assigned t o ,

t h e governor 's o f f i c e , s o i t was j u s t a s l o t t h a t t h e governor used.

Morris : I don ' t understand . O r r : I had an a s s i s t a n t t h a t was on t h e p a y r o l l as an a s s i s t a n t d i r e c t o r of

% t o r Vehicles. That a s s i s t a n t never en t e red the bu i ld ing .

Morris: You never saw him?

O r r : Well, a t f i r s t I d id because t h e governor d i d n ' t understand the s l o t , b u t soon they found o u t t h a t t r a d i t i o n a l l y t h a t a s s i s t a n t had been qua r t e r ed with t h e governor f o r speech w r i t i n g o r whatever. I t ' s done t h a t way i n government, a s you know. You have many p o s i t i o n s assigned t h a t a r e pa id f o r i n t h e p a y r o l l of a given department, b u t a r e loaned t o t h e governor 's o f f i c e , which makes t h e governor 's o f f i c e look a s though i t had a sma l l p a y r o l l . It 's done h e r e i n t h e f e d e r a l government, too. So e f f e c t i v e l y I had a s e c r e t a r y and one a s s i s t a n t .

Morris : That you brought w i th you?

O r r : Well, I could have; I d i d n ' t . The governor appointed them. But a l l of t h e r e s t of t h e 6,600 were c i v i l s e r v a n t s . So when you say top management, I d i d n ' t have any top management t h a t weren ' t c i v i l s e r v a n t s , except my deput ies . So these c i v i l s e rvan t s looked a t t h e s e 110 and they s a i d , "Obviously, near ly a l l of them a r e u t t e r l y u s e l e s s , they couldn ' t be implemented, b u t we th ink we might t r y four." So we implemented fou r and t h e next month Ned Hutchinson, who was running i t f o r t h e governor c a l l e d over and he s a i d , "How a r e you doing?" I s a i d , 'We implemented four ." He s a i d , "That was l a s t month, how many t h i s month?" So I c a l l e d t h e bueaucrats i n and we scrubbed t h e l is t aga in and we came up wi th two more. I c a l l e d Ned--"That's a l l r i g h t ." But then Ned c a l l s t h e next month and he s a i d i n e f f e c t , "Verne, we've got a community chest- type of thermometer here. The governor i s watching t h e product ion of every department. You a r e looking very low compared t o t he number of o t h e r s . How many more a r e you going t o do?" Well, I ' m no t going t o look low on anybody's l i s t ! I t became t h a t k ind of competi t ion.

Morris: I s e e , and your s t a f f people responded t o t h i s kind of t h i n g ?

O r r : I i n s i s t e d . I ' d come i n and s a y , ."We've got t o have some more. By th.e end of today, I want t o know what f i v e you w i l l implement t h i s month o r six o r fou r o r ten." To make a long s t o r y s h o r t , month a f t e r month I cracked t h e whip and they grudgingly s a i d , ' 'We'll t r y t h i s one and w e ' l l t r y t h a t one," and we f i n a l l y g o t t o t h e p o i n t t h a t about h a l f of them were implemented. Now, some of them were u n r e a l i s t i c . People come i n t o a department and they t e l l you t o do t h i n g s which simply won't work f o r one reason o r another . A l o t of i t might be p o l i t i c a l .

For i n s t ance , you could come i n t o t h e a i r f o r c e and you could I I say , One of the th ings you can do t o save money is c lose some bases ."

Well, you go over t h e h i l l and they won't c l o s e bases because t h a t base may be i n t he hands of a very in£ l u e n t i a l congressman. It doesn ' t mat te r how many e f f i c i e n c y s t u d i e s t e l l you t o c l o s e t h e base , you c a n ' t c l o s e i t .

Morris: And each base i s i n t h e t e r r i t o r y of--

O r r : Somebody th.at doesn ' t want i t c losed and you c a n ' t do i t . Well, t h e same. t h i n g was true--We had some sugges t ions t h a t simply were no t p o l i t i c a l . They wouldn't f l y .

Morris: How many of them had t o go back t o t h e l e g i s l a t u r e ?

O r r : Oh, probably h a l f of a l l we implemented i n one way o r another r equ i r ed some k ind of l e g i s l a t i o n o r a t l e a s t t o go over t o t h e committees and g e t permission. J u s t l i k e today, i f you want t o c lo se a base i n t h e a i r f o r c e , i t doesn ' t t ake l e g i s l a t i o n t o c l o s e i t , b u t you would have t o go over t o t h e committee o r t h e s e n a t o r t h a t ' s involved and say , " I ' m going t o c l o s e i t , " and h e would e i t h e r s ay , "You b e t t e r no t t r y because I ' l l c l i p your budget" o r e l s e he would accede t o your--

Morris : The courtesy of l e t t i n g somebody know.

The Di re . c to r f s New Approach t o Auto R e g i s t r a t i o n

O r r : Yes, t h a t doesn ' t r e q u i r e l e g i s l a t i o n , b u t i f you 're smart, y o u ' l l g e t l e g i s l a t i v e permission. I ' d s ay we had t o g e t l e g i s l a t i v e permission a t l e a s t on probably h a l f of a l l we implemented. But l e t me g ive you another example. I n t h e o ld days, Ca l i fo rn i ans used t o buy t h e i r new l i c e n s e p l a t e s i n t h e per iod from about December 1 u n t i l February 4, and i f you w i l l remember on February 4 t h e r e used t o be l i n e s around t h e block of people t h a t never d id g e t i n .

O r r : The t a s k f o r c e came i n and s a i d , "Why don ' t you s t a r t t o send out your renewals October 1 i n s t e a d of December 1 and t h a t w i l l g ive you two months longer t o l i g h t e n t h e work load , I' and s o f o r t h . Our people had a l l k inds of reasons why they cou ldn ' t do t h a t . We d i d n ' t b r i n g on the temporary h e l p u n t i l December 1 and these people were j u s t people t h a t were what we c a l l e d "permanent temporaries." They worked every yea r a t t h i s time. They gave up t h a t t ime, they wanted t o ea rn t h e money and they knew t h e i r job, b u t they d i d n ' t want t o work a l l y e a r long. We had many hundreds of them l i k e t h a t . They wouldn't want t o work four months because they only were used t o working two months.--you know, the whole bus iness . So f i n a l l y t h a t w a s one we s a i d , "Okay, M r . Hutchinson, w e ' l l do t h i s one." One more chalked up. It worked b e a u t i f u l l y ! A l o t of people pay a b i l l t he minute i t comes and we got m i l l i o n s of d o l l a r s i n and earned the i n t e r e s t on i t from October 1.

Morris: So it had a cash. flow advantage.

O r r : Oh, a t e r r i f i c cash flow advantage! We earned i n t e r e s t on i t and t h e work load was s l i g h t l y more even. Now i t d i d n ' t even i t o u t completely because you s t i l l have t h e type of people t h a t wa?t u n t i l t h e l a s t day and t h e l i n e s were still around t h e block. So t o go on a l i t t l e f u r t h e r , I wanted the bureaucracy--there had been many people say, ''Why don ' t you r e g i s t e r around t h e year?" When you buy a c a r i n October have a one-year--

Morris : Yes, turn-around . O r r : So u l t i m a t e l y t h e work load i n t h e whole pe r iod of time would g e t t o

be even. "Oh, no, t h e bureaucracy cou ldn ' t do t h a t . I' We had s e t up a l l of t hese temporary permanents. They knew the system. It was g r e a t t o g e t i t done a l l i n one time and t h i s and t h a t and they had done s t u d i e s and every s tudy came out t h a t t he way they d id i t was t h e b e s t , and I wasn ' t convinced. So one time I made a speech and I s a i d , "S ta r t i ng next month we w i l l r e g i s t e r motorcycles around t h e ca lendar based on the day you buy i t . I ' Well , t h e bureaucracy was h o r r i f i e d , b u t t h e d i r e c t o r had made the commitment i n t h e p re s s and t h e r e was noth ing t o do bu t do i t .

Morris: I s e e , t h i s was an o u t s i d e speech?

O r r : This was mine and t h i s wasn ' t t h e t a sk f o r c e . This was j u s t my dec i s ion . They may have had a recommendation t o do i t . I c a n ' t remember, bu t we d i d n ' t implement i t a s p a r t of t h e t a s k fo rce . I t was a yea r l a t e r o r more t h a t I d id i t , and I d id i t wf.th. motorcycles because i f i t d i d n ' t work, you were working wi th a very smal l segment. I f you had done i t wi th automobiles and i t d i d n ' t work, you've got seventeen m i l l i o n problems. But i f you do i t w i t h motorcycles, you probably had a m i l l i o n problems. Again, t o make a long s t o r y s h o r t , i t worked. We d id i t f o r e i g h t o r t e n months wi th motorcycles and

O r r : found o u t what the bugs were and i t worked. So now i n C a l i f o r n i a you r e g i s t e r your automobi le n o t i n February b u t a y e a r from when you bought i t .

Morr is : T h a t ' s an i d e a t h a t ' s k ind of c y c l e b i l l i n g .

O r r : Y e s , that's a l l i t is. The same t h i n g as t h e department s t o r e t h a t b i l l s th.e A's t o E 's f n the f i r s t week and t h e E ' s t o S ' s i n t h e second week.

Morr is : And t h a t had no t been i n o p e r a t i o n a l l t h a t l ong i .n t h e bus ine s s wor ld .

O r r : T h a t ' s r i g h t . Everybody used t o s end t h e i r b i l l s ou t the t h i r t y - f i r s t of th.e month o r t h e f i r s t .

Morr is : It sounds as i f from t h e p rocess you are d e s c r i b i n g i t w a s t he less s i g n i f i c a n t recommendations t h a t your managers w e r e wi . l l fng to--

Michael Deaver and the Department

O r r : Oh, always. I mean t h a t ' s human na tu r e . The more d i f f i l c u l t t o implement, t h e more i n b u i l t r e s i s t a n c e . So they p icked t h e easy ones and t hen as Hutchinson would c r a c k t h e whip, we'd s t r e t c h h a r d e r and h a r d e r t o f i n d a n o t h e r one we could implement, and i t w a s a s p l e n d i d system. I would never have done i t w i thou t h i s p r e s s u r e and h e was under p r e s s u r e from t h e governor.

Morr is : And you had t h i s task f o r c e which genera ted a l l of t h e s e lists of things--

O r r : It w a s Ned Hutchinson t h a t cracked t h e whip. Ned Hutchinson was t h e one t h a t d i d i t , n o t Mike Deaver, and Ned has s i n c e d i e d , as you may know from your o r a l h i s t o r y .

Morr is : Yes, I a m d e l i g h t e d t o have people l i k e you t e l l u s about him. He sounds l i k e h e w a s a--

O r r : He w a s a g r e a t guy, b u t i t w a s Ned t h a t w a s assi .gned t h a t t a s k , n o t Mike Deaver. Ned used t o c a l l m e . Tha t ' s been f i f t e e n y e a r s ago and I had f o r g o t t e n .

Morr is : Did you have much con t ac t w i th Mike Deaver i n t h a t p e r i o d ?

O r r : Not u n t i l I go t i n t h e c a b i n e t , no t u n t i l I go t i n t h e c a b i n e t .

Morr is : Then he .was p a r t i c u l a r l y i n t e r e s t e d i n t he f i n a n c e t h i n g ?

O r r : I had con tac t wi.th Mike Deaver only tw ice d i r e c t l y , b o t h r a t h e r i n t e r e s t i n g . The guys i n t he corner o f f i c e go t i n t h e h a b i t of having t h e i r d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e s r e i s sued wi th the address , "the governor ' s o f f i c e , Sacramento, Ca l i fo rn i a , " s o when they were s topped by t h e p o l i c e , they would show t h i s l i c e n s e and hopefu l ly h e ' d s e e '1 governor 's o f f ice1 ' and wouldn't t i c k e t them. Mike iound o u t about i t and h e was f u r i o u s , and he c a l l e d me t o have m e s t o p i t .

The o the r t h ing was a p e c u l i a r one. We changed our l i c e n s e p l a t e s from ABC-123 t o 123-ABC i n those days. That r e v e r s a l came when I was t h e r e and we s t a r t e d the new s e r i e s of l i c e n s e p l a t e s 000-AAA. But we d id not have i n d i v i d u a l l i c e n s e p l a t e s and somebody conceived of t he idea , "Why not have Nancy Reagan's personal ized p l a t e s "NDR." It was a r e g u l a r i s s u e , NDR--000-NDR--except t h a t we wouldn't have go t t en t o i t f o r a y e a r and a h a l f o r two y e a r s o r t h r e e yea r s . It was only pe r sona l i zed i n the sense t h a t i t would be a r e g u l a r p l a t e a t some t i m e , bu t we s t i l l were up i n the A ' s and B ' s . So t h a t was f i n e . I p u t through t h e order . It d i d n ' t make any d i f f e r e n c e t o m e . Folsom can make 000-NDR as easy a s they can make ABC .

So I p u t through t h e order and Mike Deaver c a l l e d me. He was h o r r i f i e d and h e s a i d , 'We've been th inking t h i s over and Nancy Reagan has t h r e a t s , l i k e a l l execut ives I' wives, and i f you g ive h e r l i c e n s e p l a t e s 000-NDR, everybody i n the world w i l l know t h a t i t ' s Nancy Reagan's c a r , s o I want you t o s t o p it." So I s a i d , "Fine, w e ' l l s t o p i t . " But a month l a t e r I g e t a c a l l on t h e phone : "Hello, Verne, t h i s is Nancy. " 'Yes, Mrs. Reagan. " ( I didn ' t know h e r w e l l enough t o c a l l h e r Nancy a t t h a t t i m e .) "How is my l i c e n s e p l a t e coming?" I s a i d , " M r s . Reagan, I am s o r r y b u t I was t o l d t o s t o p i t ." There was a pause on the o t h e r end and s h e s a i d , "Verne, whose c a r i s i t ? " I s a i d , "It's your s , Mrs. Reagan." She s a i d , "I want t h a t l i c e n s e p l a t e , " and s h e hung up t h e phone. [ laughs] So s h e got NDR!

Morris: It sounds l i k e M r . Deaver had not checked back--

O r r : He was t r y i n g t o p r o t e c t h e r and people do t h a t . Mike i s normally very c l o s e t o t h e Reagans and he was j u s t doing h i s job and t r y i n g t o make s u r e t h a t she was p ro t ec t ed , bu t I had t o laugh. I n t h i s i n s t a n c e , s h e d i d n ' t want t o b e p ro t ec t ed !

Business ExDe.rience i n Government and Education

Morris: To what e x t e n t was your bus iness school experience u s e f u l , o r how much of t r a n s f e r r e d i n t o t h i s new t e r r i t o r y ?

O r r : Oh, I suppose a l i t t l e of i t . Business s choo l , t o me, i s a l i t t l e more of a growing up and a maturing than advice t h a t he lps you. I went t o Bullock 's a s a s h i r t salesman working my way up and I knew whether Bullock 's should i s s u e bonds o r s tocks o r whether they should go f o r bank loans because I had learned i t a l l . But Bullock 's never came down t o a s h i r t salesman and s a i d , "Do w e i s s u e bonds o r s tocks?"

Morris: Oh, t h a t ' s too bad!

O r r : Y e s , I was ready t o t e l l them! I had a l l t h e answers and I was never asked any of the. ques t ions . So I c a n ' t t e l l you t h a t l e a r n i n g afiou.ti industria1 management o r accounting was good o r bad. It probably helped me because i t added, b u t i t ' s d i f f i c u l t .

Morris: How about your experience both i n t h e automobile bus iness and i n t he savings and loan bus iness?

O r r : Let me t e l l you t h i s , I j u s t th ink t h a t experience is a g r e a t t eache r --what do I do h e r e t h a t I might no t do a t t h i r t y - f i v e ? Well, I ' d probably work harder a t t h i r t y - f i v e , b u t I would make a l o t more mistakes because everytime you undergo a yea r of dea l ing wi th people , and t h a t ' s a l l any of t hese jobs a r e , you l e a r n .

Morris : It is p r imar i ly dea l ing wi th people.

O r r : Oh, i t ' s a l l people-oriented. That ' s how I used t o g e t i n g r e a t b i g f i g h t s wi th Cha r l i e Hitch i n your own dear u n i v e r s i t y . You have t h e hidebound i d e a t h a t th.e only person t h a t can run one of your campuses i s an educator , and h e ' s go t t o be s e l e c t e d because he ' s publ ished o r he ' s a microbe hun te r o r something. We don ' t have any campus head t h a t i s n ' t , and I don' t b e l i e v e t h a t . I 've argued wi th Cha r l i e one time. Chet McCorkle and I got i n t o a shout ing match t h a t we d i d n ' t even need t o phone from Berkeley t o Sacramento and I s a i d , "Hell , t h e p re s iden t of any good p i c k l e f ac to ry can run a u n i v e r s f t y , " and Je sus , I thought he was going t o go through t h e overhead. But i t i s t o me t r u e . Now, t h e f a c u l t y w i l l not t o l e r a t e i t , but a l l you a r e doing a s t h e . p re s iden t of a u n i v e r s i t y i s dea l ing wi th people, and i f you have t h e t a l e n t t o p i c k good people and motivate them and weed them out i f they don ' t do well--no p re s iden t of a u n i v e r s i t y looks through a microscope any more, and darn few of them w r i t e any [more]; they don ' t have time.

Morris: Speeches t o t h e l e g i s l a t u r e they w r i t e !

O r r : Oh, I w r i t e those . That 's businessman's use--speeches. But I am t a l k i n g about t h e kind of research t h a t an academic does, the kind of books t h a t they may have w r i t t e n on t h e i r way up. [David] Saxon's undoubtedly got books t o h i s c r e d i t , b u t I b e t he h a s n ' t w r i t t e n one s i n c e h e ' s been p re s iden t . So I have t h i s phobia t h a t t h e s e jobs

O r r : a r e management jobs and i t doesn ' t ma t t e r how you g e t t h e experience, your experience is t o teach you how t o do business w i th people and everyday I make mistakes.

Morris : But each group of people i n each s e t t i n g has t h e i r own s tandards f o r worth amongst those people. I b e l i e v e i t ' s t r u e i n the m i l i t a r y and i n the. educa t iona l world.

O r r : I ' m no t a p i l o t and t h a t doesn ' t mean I c a n ' t run t h e a i r f o r c e . I don ' t have t o know how f a s t a p lane w i l l t u r n i n o rde r t o s e l e c t people who can t r a i n p i l o t s . I don ' t go o u t and t r a i n p i l o t s . I don ' t go o u t and f l y a i r p l a n e s , b u t I can t e l l you who t h e good o f f i c e r s a r e because I have d e a l t w i th people and a f t e r you come i n an o rgan iza t ion and you begin t o rub shou lde r s , you l e a r n w i t h i n s i x months who a r e your good people--just a s t h e p r e s i d e n t knows who h i s good deans a r e . He m y not know h i s t o r y o r physics because h e can only be a s p e c i , a l i s t i n one f i e l d , b u t he knows who h i s good deans i n the o t h e r departments, who h i s good admin i s t r a to r s , who h i s good Chuck Youngs and Mike Heymans a r e , and who t h e weak ones a r e , and they may be i n t h e f i e l d s t h a t h e i s n ' t i n .

Morris: That ' s an i n t e r e s t i n g summary of management e i t h e r i n o r ou t of the--

O r r : So anyway, my broad experience i n bus iness and government was very h e l p f u l i n the. s ense t h a t i t had helped me dea l w i t h people--the same a s he re . I have some s t r e n g t h s because I ' v e g o t - f o r t y yea r s of business . I have some weaknesses because a t h i r ty -yea r o l d would probably have more f i r e and v i m and charge ha rde r and you balance ou t .

Budget Deal ings; Spec ia l Funds; L e g i s l a t i v e Committees

Morris : How about your own budget dea l ings wi th t h e Department of Finance?

O r r : Oh., they were very i n t e r e s t i n g . We u s e d t o g o through t h e d r i l l . We were s o nervous about p re sen t ing our budget t o Cap Weinberger o r Gordon Paul Smith t h a t we would have dry runs. I would g e t i n my conference room be fo re a l l of t he top l e v e l bureaucra ts and they would f i r e ques t ions a t me--"Mr. O r r , how muchf'--they c a l l e d me d i r e c t o r a t t h a t time because i t was a m i l i t a r y type of o rgan iza t ion , they always c a l l e d me d i rec tor - -"d i rec tor , how much of your budget goes f o r d r i v e r improvement a n a l y s t s . " I s a i d , "Seventeen pe rcen t , " o r 17.3, o r whatever t h e answer was, and we'd go back and f o r t h f o r t h r e e hours . Then I ' d go i n t o Cap and I ' d b e primed. Cap would s i t down and he 'd s ay , "Verne, I have been very i n t e r e s t e d i n t h i s program. L e t ' s v i s i t about it." And we'd spend t h e hour on one segment of a program t h a t happened t o i n t e r e s t Cap and t h a t was. t he end of i t .

O r r : Now, p a r t of t h a t was I had e s t a b l i s h e d a r e p u t a t i o n f o r running a good department and i t ' s l i k e d e a l i n g wi th people . You l e a r n who your good peop le a r e , and the guy t h a t has a r e p u t a t i o n f o r running a t i g h t department, you ' r e no t going t o r a k e him over t he c o a l s l i k e you were t h e ones t h a t were weak. It was obvious t h a t I had a good r e p u t a t i o n because t h e governor promoted m e , b u t t h a t made my budget easier. J u s t l i k e i f you work ha rd and you become Phi Beta Kappa m a t e r i a l , a t t he end of your f o u r t h year they may f o r g i v e you your exams j u s t because they know you a r e a good s t u d e n t o r i f you r ead your own exams and you know t h e s t u d e n t , you a r e going t o have a b i a s toward a good s t u d e n t . It j u s t fo l lows and t h a t ' s why many p r o f e s s o r s t h a t I know of e i t h e r have t h e i r papers read o r b lock t h e names ou t .

Morris: T h a t ' s i n t e r e s t i n g . I n t h i s p e r i o d we a r e dea l ing w i t h "cut t h e budget t e n percent" and then i n t h e succeeding y e a r they cu t t h e budget some more. Did you accept t h a t and d i d your i n i t i a l budget submission r e p r e s e n t t h a t ?

O r r : O h , ye s , yes , we had t o cu t back t e n pe rcen t . W e were a l i t t l e more favored than some because we were n o t a gene ra l fund agency and i f we c u t t e n pe rcen t on t h e Department of Motor Vehic le ' s budget , t he r e s i d u e went t o t h e Department of T ranspo r t a t i on t o b u i l d highways. It d i d n o t h e l p t h e governor w i t h h i s t axes ; i t d id no t h e l p him with. paying f o r parks o r schools o r a i d t o t h e poor. It was an i n t e r n a l - - a l l of t h e money you pa id f o r your l i c e n s e r e g i s t r a t i o n and d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e s suppor t s t h i s , t h e Department of Motor Vehicles f i r s t , t h e Highway P a t r o l second, and the r e s idue goes t o t h e Department of Transpor ta t ion . So t h e p r e s s u r e was a l i t t l e b i t l e s s than t h e gene ra l fund agenc ies where t h e r e were s o many o t h e r demands: "Why should I s t a r v e people and make them w a i t i n l i n e too long t o g e t a l i c e n s e only s o t h a t they can have ano the r mi l e of conc re t e t o d r i v e on?'' And everybody recognized t h a t . So t h e r e was a tendency probably t o be a l i t t l e more l e n i e n t on my budget.

Morr is : Did t h a t apply i n gene ra l t o a c t i v i t i e s t h a t were funded through s p e c i a l funds ?

O r r : Y e s . A s a m a t t e r of f a c t , when I got t o be d i r e c t o r of Finance, and t h i s is jumping the gun, i t is a very ha rd argument w i th s p e c i a l fund people . L e t ' s t ake t eache r s . Are you by any chance a c r eden t i a l ed t eache r?

Morris : I am not a c r e d e n t i a l e d teacher .

O r r : A l l r i g h t , t ake a c r e d e n t i a l e d teacher . A c r e d e n t i a l e d t eache r pays x-dol la rs f o r he.r c r e d e n t i a l i n g l i c e n s e and each y e a r a renewal. Now, t h a t money is: p a i d o u t of h e r pocket and f o r that--or h i s , b u t very o f t e n hers--they expec t good s e r v i c e . I f you a r e now c u t t i n g back and you e l i m i n a t e employees i n t h a t department s o i t takes t h r e e

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

months t o g e t the c r e d e n t i a l back i n s t e a d of two, t he t eache r s ays w i t h some t r u t h , " I ' m paying, why c a n ' t I g e t s e rv i ce?" The r e a l e s t a t e brokers a r e a prime example. They b u i l t up money when I w a s d i r e c t o r of Finance i n t h e r e a l e s t a t e fund, and t h e governor, t h o u g h me, went t o them and s a i d , "We want t o change t h e r e a l e s t a t e l i c e n s e from f i f t y d o l l a r s a y e a r down t o ten . We don ' t need more. We've got a surp lus ." Oh, no, t h e r e a l t o r s d i d n ' t want i t c u t back.

They wanted a l i t t l e s lush . fund.

They us.ed it. f o r s cho la r sh ips . They have e s t a b l i s h e d courses i n r e a l e s t a t e a t t h e Un ive r s i t y of Ca l i fo rn i a . What they want t o do is t o make r e a l e s t a t e a s g r e a t a p ro fe s s ion a s M.D. s and they a r e working i t s o t h a t you w i l l f i n a l l y have t o have a degree i n r e a l e s t a t e , o r even, even tua l ly , a graduate degree i n r e a l e s t a t e , t o be a r e a l t o r . Tha t ' s t h e i r goa l , and they use t h e i r money, they w i l l i n g l y pay it--It is r e a l l y a drawbridge. Once you a r e i n , i t makes i t ha rde r and ha rde r f o r competi t ion t o g e t i n , which i s one reas,on f o r t h e M.D. and t h e lawyer 's board. It 's a p r o t e c t i o n f o r t h e " in ' s " when you come r i g h t down t o i t .

Rather than s t anda rds f o r t h e consumer.

Well, they gu i se i t a s though i t was t h e consumer, b u t b a s c i a l l y a l l of t b s e p r o t e c t i v e agencies a r e t o keep competi t ion down.

They're f r a t e r n a l o rgan iza t ions .

Well, s o i s your ba r . Now, i t is never produced a s t h a t . It i s always t o p r o t e c t t h e p u b l i c from unscrupulous lawyers , b u t t he r e a l reason .is they don ' t want every Tom, Dick, and Harry i n t h e r e with. a s h i n g l e o u t .

How about t h e l e g i s l a t i v e budget committee? Did you have t o d e a l wi.th. them r e g u l a r l y ?

Y e s , t h e t r a n s p o r t a t i o n committee of both the s e n a t e and t h e house, and we got a long very wel l . I e a r l y learned t h a t your success i n a department l i k e t h a t l i e s i n good r e l a t i o n s h i p s w i th t h e committee chairmen and t h e c o d t t e e s . I made i t a p o i n t t o g e t around on cour tesy c a l l s and f r equen t ly a t o t h e r times t o s a y , "Do you have concerns about the department? What would you l i k e t o s e e happening? Where can I he lp you?" By t h e same token, they were very courteous t o me. That l a s t e d a l l through my e i g h t yea r s . I got a long very w e l l with t h e 1 e g i s l a t u r e . Yes, your r e p u t a t i o n has gone be fo re you.

O r r : Well, thank you.

Morris: They say , "Verne O r r was somebody we could t a l k to."

O r r : Y e s , I t r i e d t o be s t r a igh t fo rward wi th them, never undercut them. I f w e had t o make a change that a f f e c t e d them, I always wanted t o g e t t o them f i r s t s o they d i d n ' t read about i t i n the paper , and they learned t o r e spec t t h a t .

/

Management Reorganization and Dri.verls License Renewals

Morris : On your a c t i v i t i e s d t h . the agency a s a whole, I am cu r ious about t h e Of f i ce of Management and Servi.ces, which was charge.d with. da ta processing.

O r r : Let m e leave t h a t one f o r a moment and t e l l you something e l s e t h a t is r e a l l y much-more important about t h e agency, And i t i s t h e th ing t h a t probably got me t h e most a t t e n t i o n and my l a t e r promotion. I was s t r i v i n g f o r e f f i c i e n c y and s t r u g g l i n g t o f i n d ways t o do i t , and we had fou r major department heads. We had the d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e d i v i s i o n , t he r e g i s t r a t i o n d i v i s i o n , t h e f i e l d o f f i c e d i v i s i o n , and t h e admin i s t r a t ion d i v i s i o n . The youngest of t he f o u r department heads had probably been i n h i s o f f i c e f i v e yea r s and the o l d e s t had probably been i n almost twenty yea r s . So they were very s e n i o r , and a s I was s t a r p n g t o make improvements, I would c a l l them i n , sometimes i n response t o management i n q u i r i e s , I mean t h i s group, t h i s e f f i c i e n c y group, sometimes because my job was t o run i t more e f f e c t i v e l y . I would say , "I 've been thinking, why don ' t we do i t t h i s way," and t h e answer would come back almost i n v a r i a b l y , "Oh, M r . O r r , we t r i e d t h a t seven yea r s ago and i t d i d n ' t work, and t h e r e is j u s t no use i n t r y i n g i t again."

Well, you g e t r e a l discouraged wi th t h a t s o r t of t h i n g and I f i n a l l y got f ed up wi th i t . So I t a lked wi th my deputy and I made my p l a n s and one Thursday morning w i t h r e a l f e a r and t rembling, I c a l l e d a l l fou r i n t o my o f f i c e . I s a i d , "I am reass igning each of you. I am p u t t i n g t h e man who i s i n charge1'--Oh, f i r s t I want to t e l l you what r e a l l y teed me o f f . It took over f i f t y days--no, i t took over f o r t y days, for ty- four days i t was taking--from the t i m e your d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e renewal o r a p p l i c a t i o n h i t Sacramento u n t i l we mailed i t out of Sacramento. We gave you a sixty-day temporary p e d t . I f you inc lude two o r t h r e e days t o mail i t t o Sacramento from t h e f i e l d o f f i c e and two o r t h r e e days t o mail i t back, you were g e t t i n g dangerously c lose t o s i x t y days i n add i t ion t o which thousands of people every month, s t a r t t h e i r vaca t ion and they a r e going t o d r i v e and they 've got t h i s permit t h a t is going t o run out i n the. middle of t h e i r vaca t ion .

O r r : So by the hundreds everyday people would c a l l up o r go t o a f i e l d o f f i c e and say , "I am s t a r t i n g my vaca t ion , I don't. have my l i c e n s e , what can you do?" W e had a whole crew of runners i n t h e d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e d i v i s f o n t h a t were handl ing i n d i v i d u a l problems. The f i e l d o f f i c e would c a l l up and g ive t h e d a t e on which you had app l i ed , and we would r u n t h a t ba tch down and t r y t o p u l l your l i c e n s e ou t i n o rde r t o ge t i t back.

So I c a l l e d t h e head of t h e d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e d i v i s i o n i n and I s a i d , "I want t o reduce t h e t ime t h a t i t takes in-house f o r a d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e renewal. What can you do?" He s a i d , "It 's running for ty- four days, M r . O r r , and I th ink i f you g ive me about f i f t y more people, I can g e t i t down t o forty-two days." I s a i d , " I ' m s o r r y f o r two r e spec t s . That i s n ' t what I have i n mind. I want a much b igger c u t than t h a t and i n t h e second p l a c e , M r . Reagan i s not adding people t o t h i s admin i s t r a t i on , he i s cu t t i ng . " But i t w a s t h a t kind of a response t h a t I was g e t t i n g t o a l l of my r e q u e s t s .

So on one Thursday morning--I had probably been i n o f f i c e e i g h t o r nine. months, something l i k e that--

Morris: We a r e s t i l l i n 1967?

O r r : Oh, w e a r e i n '67. I t could be t h e e a r l y p a r t of '68; I th ink i n '67 s t i l l . I c a l l e d t h e four department heads i n and s a i d , "I 've given t h i s a l o t of thought," and I had and I had b u i l t up some arguments about why each one should t ake a new job, that when you g e t i n a job too long, i t i s n ' t f r e s h and i t i s n ' t exc i t i ng . You come down t o t h e o f f i c e bored because t h e problems you have seen today, you have seen a few yea r s ago. But i f you have a new job, t h e r e a r e new cha l lenges , you a r e exc i t ed , and I b u i l t t h i s whole t h ing up, and then I dropped t h e bomb. I s a i d , "I am reas s ign ing each of you. The d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e head i s going over t o t h e f i e l d o f f i c e s , t h e f i e l d o f f i c e s ' head is going t o d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e , t h e r e g i s t r a t i o n man is going t o admin i s t r a t i on , t h e admin i s t r a t i on man i s going t o r e g i s t r a t i o n I would l i k e t o have you each i n p l a c e i n your new o f f i c e s tomorrow a t noon. You may t ake your f u r n i t u r e and your s e c r e t a r y . " I d i d n ' t da re g ive them over t he weekend because I was a f r a i d this would cause a r i o t i n c i v i l s e r v i c e . It had never been done before . You don ' t t ake somebody t h a t has gone up--It would be l i k e tak ing a h i s t o r y p ro fe s so r and say ing , "Tomorrow morning, you s t a r t teaching French."

Morris: I was j u s t th inking of t h a t .

O r r : It was j u s t a s t r o k e t h a t abso lu t e ly blew t h e minds of t h e c i v i l s e r v i c e .

Morris: You could move deans around. You r e a l l y cou ldn ' t make a h i s t o r y p ro fe s so r very u s e f u l teaching French.

O r r : No. T h i s was considered t o be shocking because t h i s man knew d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e s i n t i m a t e l y and I w a s k ick ing him o u t a s though I were i n s u l t i n g h i m . But I was the d i r e c t o r and I d i d n ' t t o l e r a t e any argument and I d i d n ' t g i v e them time. That ' s why I s a i d , "By tomorrow a t noon, you w i l l be i n your new job and you w i l l have your f u r n i t u r e t h e r e and your s e c r e t a r y . Your a s s i s t a n t w i l l s t a y t o guide t h e new d i r e c t o r . " I d i d n ' t want t o change a l l of management. W e l l , you can imagine t h e shock--not only i n Motor v e h i c l e s , bu t i n t h e e n t i r e c i v i l s e r v i c e i n t he s t a t e of Ca l i fo rn i a . They had never d t n e s s e d t h i s kind of a massive change.

What happened was we s t a r t e d t o f i n d some unusual s i t u a t i o n s . When t h e f i e l d o f f i c e head went over t o d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e and s t a r t e d working, h e came t o me a few days l a t e r and he s a i d , "I f i n d we a r e produc2ng the same r e p o r t i n both departments independently and we can save x-amount i n t ime and e f f o r t w i th one r e p o r t .

So I gave them about two months i n order t o l e a r n t h e i r new jobs and then I c a l l e d the - new head of d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e i ssuance i n and I s a i d , "I want t o cu t t h e time t h a t i t now takes t o renew a d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e , f or ty-four days . I 1 He s a i d , ''What do you want t o cu t i t to?" I s a i d , "Ten days in-house. l1 He d idn ' t know any b e t t e r . He d i d n ' t b v e twenty y e a r s exper ience t o t e l l me i t couldn ' t be done; h e was too new. So h e s a i d , " A l l r i g h t . I 1 So he was a g r e a t execut ive , one of my b e s t . That was one of t h e reasons I had pu t him the re . He was much s t r o n g e r than the man t h a t I s h i f t e d . So he went back and he made a game of i t . He approached each of h i s people --Now, your d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e when i t comes up, i t goes through d i f f e r e n t processes , l i k e t h e photograph has t o be made. It has t o be a t t ached t o t h e f i l e . You have t o be checked f o r your d r i v i n g l i c e n s e v i o l a t i o n s t o see--

Morris : I f i t 's s t i l l a good l i c e n s e .

O r r : Yes, i f you have had too many and a l l of t hese th ings , and t h e r e a r e maybe twenty-five sub-assemblies . So he went t o every sub-assembly and h e s a f d , "How long is i t tak ing you? I want t h a t c u t . " And he began t o g e t competi t ion, and t h i s competi t ion, they would come out and say , 'Be have c u t two hours o f f of our t ime." That 's f i n e , bu t t h i s d i v i s i o n over he re s ays , 'We have cu t s i x hours . "I He had community ches t - type of thermometers i n t he hall--"This d i v i s i o n has c u t x-hours, t h i s one is a l i t t l e more, they 've cu t more." Well, not t o drag i t ou t , s i x months l a t e r he c a l l e d me. He s a i d , "I want you t o come over, we 're having a b i g party-- tea and cookies ." It was not a l i q u o r p a r t y , i t was a p a r t y , and I s a i d , "Fine." I went over and h e s a i d , " M r . O r r , I want t o t e l l you today i t ' s t e n days. Dr iver ' s l i c e n s e s a r e going out i n t e n days."

O r r : W e l l , t h a t s o l d Ronald Reagan and the th ing t h a t was i n t e r e s t i n g i s th t i t was wi th much less employees because now a l l of the runners t h a t used t o run around looking f o r your l i c e n s e were e l imina ted because i n t e n days, you never had time t o worry. It came be fo re you even expected i t and i t never got c l o s e t o t he s ixty-day maxLmum. It was t h a t kind of t h i n g t h a t we were a b l e t o do and o f f e r b e t t e r s e r v i c e and more e f f i c i e n c y . [ t a p e i n t e r r u p t i o n ]

Anyway, t h a t was probably t h e th ing Ronald Reagan used t o go through making a l l of t h e speeches i n California--"This is what our government c a n ' d o . We've turned around d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e s from f o r t y days t o t e n , we've done i t w i t h few people." It was a s t r o k e of good luck because t h e execut ive I p u t over t h e r e w a s t he kind of a guy t h a t took i t a s a cha l lenge . But i t never would have happened i f I hadn ' t switched the execut ive . The o ld boy, h e thought he would be doing wonders t o g e t i t down t o forty-two days and t e n days would have blown h i s mind.

Emp1oye.e Suggest ions and an Able Deputy, Jay W. Chapman, Jr.

Morris: So you a r e say ing t h a t t h i s k ind of personnel cha l lenge and response w a s more important i n Sacramento a t t h a t p o i n t than t h e hardware of developing d a t a process ing?

O r r : Oh, t h e r e ' s no comparison! There was no comparison. We d i d n ' t have a d i f f e r e n t p i e c e of mechanism i n d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e t o go from f o r t y - fou r days t o t en . We d i d n ' t have a new computer o r anything. It was j u s t t h a t people s t a r t e d l e a r n i n g what they could c u t ou t , j u s t l i k e I am t e l l i n g you about stamping a d r i v e r ' s l i c e n s e . Over t h e r e t h e r e were t a s k s t h a t d i d n ' t have t o be done when they f i n a l l y looked a t i t . Now, your b e s t source of improvement i n any o rgan iza t ion is your employees and l e t me f i n i s h by t e l l i n g you a l i t t l e s t o r y about t h a t .

W e were g e t t i n g employee sugges t ions , very few i n number and ve ry unproductive. My deputy, who was a former a i r f o r c e genera l o f f icer - -

Morris : Who was he?

O r r : His name is J . W . Chapman, Jr. H e l i v e s i n Sacramento i f you e v e r want t o intervi'ew him. General Chapman is on American River Drive and is i n t h e phone book. He came up wi th t h e i d e a t h a t we add one more copy t o our employee sugges t ion [form] and t h e l a s t copy went d i r e c t l y t o h i s desk. He would keep i t i n a t i c k l e r f i l e wi th h i s s e c r e t a r y and a t t h e end of s i x t y days, he would c a l l through the s y s tern, "Where is the answer t o t h i s employee's sugges t ion?"

Morris: Now, t h i s f i f t h . copy went t o General Chapman o r back t o t he employee?

O r r : No, i t went back t o Chapman. It may n o t have been a f i f t h ; i t was an e x t r a copy, how-ever many t h e r e were. One more copy w a s added t o t he form, whl.ch went d i r e c t l y t o General Chapman's desk, and he t i c k l e d i t f o r s i x t y days and a t t h e end of s i x t y days, i f i t h a d n r t come up t o h i s desk, e i t h e r approved o r disapproved, h e would tap t h e system t o f i n d i t and br ing i t up. t h a t we found was t h a t near ly a l l employee sugges t ions d ied a t t h e f i r s t l e v e l of supe rv i so r u n t i l h e d i d t h i s because t h e f i r s t l e v e l of supe rv i s ion always looks on i t a s a t h r e a t . Here is an employee's sugges t ion t h a t w i l l save labor--"I may not be a supe rv i so r . I' That ' s r e a l l y what happens--"I t may e l i m i n a t e my department. I ' v e got e i g h t people working f o r me and t h i s would save s i x and they may dec ide t h a t two people i s n ' t enough, s o I won't be a supe rv i so r any more." And they would disapprove of them o r bury them, j u s t never forward them, u n t i l we had a t i c k l i n g s y s tem and the sys tem a t t h a t time never knew t h a t an employee sugges t ion had been made because i t j u s t used t o flow up wi th an approval o r d i sapproval .

Morris: The f r o n t o f f i c e d i d n ' t know--

O r r : We had no way of knowing an employee had ever made a sugges t ion u n t i l w e go t the copy t h a t came t o him. Then we s t a r t e d phoning down, "We haven ' t heard about Joe Smith's sugges t ion . Where is i t ? " Then the. f i r s t l e v e l supe rv i so r had t o e i t h e r approve i t o r disapprove i t and w e could l o o k a t t h e reason f o r d i sapproval and say , "That's no t va l id . " But i t was t h a t kind of t h ing and they came up wi th many f i n e sugges:tions . -

Morris: I have heard t h a t from o t h e r people. Was General Chapman a person t h a t was i n an exempt s p o t and he came i n wi th you?

O r r : No, b u t h e is a very i n t e r e s t i n g i n d i v i d u a l and I w i l l conclude very b r i e f l y by t e l l i n g you t h a t he was a b r i g a d i e r gene ra l a t Travis Air Force Base. He was given o rde r s back t o t h e Pentagon. He d i d n ' t want t o come because he s a i d , "I have been the commander a t Travis . I f I go t o t he Pentagon wi th one s t a r on my shoulder , I d o n r t amount t o much." He had been very a c t i v e i n Sacramento and somebody s a i d t o him, "Governor P a t Brown i s looking f o r a deputy d i r e c t o r of Motor Vehicles. Would you be i n t e r e s t e d ? " He s a i d , " I ' d l ove i t ." So he interviewed wi th P a t Brown and Pa t Brown o f f e red him t h e job. He took i t , he res igned h i s commission, canceled t h e forwarding of h i s b u s e h o l d e f f e c t s , and prepared t o take o f f i c e .

Then somebody t o l d P a t Brown, "The guy i s a Republican." Pa t Brown's system had not a l e r t e d him. Nobody had thought t o ask. Pa t Brown then s e n t down word he cou ldn ' t have the job . Now t h e guy has resigned his commission, h e i s out of work, he h a s ru ined h i s c a r e e r . So h e f i n a l l y got back i n t o s e e P a t Brown and he convinced him t h a t " th i s wasn ' t my f a u l t , you d i d n ' t ask m e . I would have t o l d you I was

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris-:

O r r :

Morris: :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris. :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

a Republican and i t ' s not f a i r t o me. I ' v e given up my ca ree r . " So Pa t f i n a l l y r e l e n t e d and put h i m over a s deputy d i r e c t o r of Motor Vehicles , b u t h e had been promised the top s t e p . There a r e s o many s t e p s . When h i s s a l a r y check came, i t was the lowest s t e p . So h e s u f f e r e d a many thousand d o l l a r reduct ion .

So h e served P a t Brown about a yea r o r a yea r and a h a l f u n t i l t h e e l e c t i o n , and then, l o and behold, h e was going t o g e t f i r e d because h e was a p a r t of t h e P a t Brown team.

Even though. h e was. a Republican?

People d i d n ' t know t h a t . He looked l i k e h e had been working f o r P a t Brown. So Barry Goldwater, who knew him through t h e a i r f o r c e , pe r sona l ly phoned Ronald Reagan and s a i d , "Don't f i r e t h e guy, h e ' s your guy!" I laughs]

This is t h e s e n a t o r , Senator Goldwater?

Yes, t h e s e n a t o r . This was a long time ago be fo re t h e young guy was out of school . This i s Senator Barry Goldwater, who had been a f l y i n g buddy of my genera l , [who] c a l l e d Ronald Reagan and s a i d , "Keep him, h e ' s your guy ." So when I came i n , he was ready-bui l t , h e had a yea r and a h a l f exper ience , and he was an e x c e l l e n t deputy--very good--and h e gave m e c o n t i n u i t y t h a t I could depend on. He t o l d me a l l of t h e f a u l t s i n t h e system. He a l e r t e d me t o what t h e bureaucracy would be doing t o me. H e supported me when I made my t r a n s i t i o n move. I knew t h a t he was r i g h t wi th m e . He j u s t was a ve ry s t r o n g execut ive .

He supported you on t r y i n g t o g e t suppor t f o r t h e r ecomenda t ions?

No, h e suppor ted me mainly on t h i s in te rchange of t h e fou r department heads, which was t h e most worrisome t h i n g I d i d whi le I was the re .

It gave you some anx ie ty?

Oh, I was sca red t o d e a t h they'd j u s t simply s a y , "I won't go," and then I d i d n ' t know what I ' d do.

Had you t a lked about i t with. Chapman?

Oh., y e s , h e and I t a lked about i t .

There were a s s o r t e d m i l i t a r y people f l o a t i n g around i n t h e Reagan y e a r s i n Sacramento. HOW important was t h e i r i n p u t i n terms of how you run l a r g e organiza t ions?

Well, Jay was very h e l p f u l t o me, very h e l p f u l t o me. I c a n ' t speak t o any o t h e r s because t h a t i s t h e only one I r e a l l y rubbed shoulders w i th , b u t he was very--For i n s t ance , h i s employee sugges t ion f a c t o r

O r r : and h% con t inua l support and h i s con t inua l a l e r t i n g of what a bureaucracy can do t o you because I was new t o six thousand people. My dea le r sh ip and my automobile firms w e r e nea r ly a hundred, and s i x thousand was- an overwhelming number. I suppose I' should go. It's t h a t t i m e and I have somebody wa i t i ng .

Morris: Thank you very much.

I V FIRST YEAR AS DIRECTOR OF FINANCE: 1970-1971

[ In te rv iew 2 : May 5 , 1983]##

Working w i t h Reagan and t h e Cabinet

Orr : [Raymond] Procunier has t o l d you t h a t Ed Meese and I found him d i f f i c u l t t o d e a l with. i n o f f i c e and g r e a t f r i e n d s o u t s i d e , which is exac t ly t r u e .

I r e c a l l an i n s t a n c e i n which Lucian Vandegrif t was the s e c r e t a r y [of Heal th and Welfare] over M r . Procunier and t h e governor had ordered us t o make cutbacks. M r . Vandegrif t came t o m e and s a i d , "You ' l l have t o come and t a l k t o M r . Procunier because t h e r e ' s no a r e a he f e e l s he can c u t , and I c a n ' t convince him t o make any c u t s ."

So we went over and M r . Procunier t o l d me i n no unce r t a in terms t h a t h e was unable t o make any cu t s i n h i s department, t h a t each element of i t was abso lu t e ly necessary. I made a few t e n t a t i v e i n q u i r i e s about d id he cons ider t h a t food was a s important a s r e l i g i o n o r r e l i g i o n a s important a s s p o r t s , and h e i n d i c a t e d t h a t t h e r e were no p o s s i b l e c u t s i n any, t h a t the temper of convic ts w a s they abso lu t e ly had t o have r e c r e a t i o n , they had t o have r e l i g i o n , t h a t th ings were very t e n s e i n t h e pr isons, and t h a t h e simply wouldn't be a b l e t o make any c u t s [ i n t h e Department of Correc t ions budget] .

But I was under o rde r s t o make c u t s , and s o I s a i d , ' W e l l , f i n e , M r . P rocunier , I have t o make c u t s and s i n c e you c a n ' t e s t a b l i s h p r i o r i t i e s , w i l l you p l ease n o t i f y t h e p r i sone r s t h a t e f f e c t i v e t h e f i r s t of Ju ly , t h e r e ' l l be no noon meal." H e looked a t me as though I had h o l e s i n my head. I s a i d , " I ' m s o r r y , bu t i t ' s necessary t o make c u t s , and you haven ' t got a p r i o r i t y , s o I do. " H e s a i d , 'Naybe we need t o t a l k a l i t t l e f u r t h e r . " [ laughter]-

We found a common meeting, bu t Ray was doing a f a n t a s t i c a l l y good job of p r o t e c t i n g h i s department, which was h i s job and what he was t h e r e f o r . But I was a l s o under governor 's o rders t o f i n d c u t s . So when he found i t was abso lu t e ly necessary , we d id work ou t some- th ing t h a t apparent ly wasn ' t too harmful.

Morris: Did you encounter much of t h a t kind of ho r se t r ad ing w i t h t he depar t - ment d i r e c t o r s ?

O r r : I n gene ra l , Ronald Reagan made i t easy on h i s d i r e c t o r of Finance because he would t o l e r a t e almost no reclamas o r appeals .* A d i r e c t o r of Finance l o s e s a l l h i s e f f e c t i v e n e s s i f h e makes a cu t and someone can come t o t h e governor, o r i n t h i s ope ra t ion t h e p r e s i d e n t , and p r o t e s t and have t h e c u t overturned. It then becomes r e a d i l y apparent throughout the s t a t e t h a t i f t h e d i r e c t o r of Finance makes a c u t , a l l you have t o do is go t o t h e governor 's o f f i c e and g e t i t r e i n s t a t e d , and t h e l i n e would soon form around the block.

They quick ly l ea rned , no t neces sa r i l y s t a r t i n g wi th my - opera t ion , b u t c e r t a i n l y s t a r t i n g with Cap Weinberger's ahead of me, t h a t t he governor p laced a l o t of confidence i n h i s d i r e c t o r of Finance and expected him t o come up wi th s o l u t i o n s t o t h e s t a t e ' s f i s c a l problems. H e wasn ' t about t o e n t e r h i s judgment i n i n d i v i d u a l cases and u p s e t it. So I had very g r e a t success , s i n c e t h e word was o u t t h a t i t d i d n ' t do any good t o appea l t o t h e governor.

Morris: Were t h e r e ever times when you f e l t t h a t when somebody appealed t o you t h a t you d i d n ' t want t o make t h e dec i s ion and you'd t a k e i t on t o M r . Reagan?

O r r : There were t imes when people - d id appea l t o t h e governor and when he upheld me i n t h e meeting b u t , because I knew him s o w e l l , I could recognize h e was a l i t t l e uncomfortable wi th my dec is ion . He would a f f i r m i t , bu t a f t e r w e l e f t t h e o f f i c e I would recognize t h a t probably t h i s i s one h i s h e a r t wasn ' t i n , and s o I would c a l l t h e people who made t h e appea l and say , "Gee, you made such a good appea l and I know t h a t your needs a r e g r e a t . I wonder i f we c a n ' t work out something and then we can go i n toge ther and s e e i f we can s e l l i t t o t h e governor. 'I

This worked very w e l l . He never undercut me. But by h i s mannerism and t h e f a c t I ' d worked f o r him s o many yea r s , I could t e l l when he was uncomfortable. This saved my f a c e and never caused him t o have t h e r e p u t a t i o n of undercut t ing h i s d i r e c t o r of Finance, bu t still [he] normally got h i s wishes through.

Morris: Acceded t o .

O r r : He never , I belileve, c a l l e d m e i n a f t e r a meeting and s a i d , "Verne, I want you t o change it." You j u s t g e t t o know him and you recognize through h i s ques t ions and h i s hes i t ancy , o r h i s f o r t h r i g h t n e s s , t h a t t h i s i s one t h a t bo the r s him a l i t t l e b i t .

kreclama: an a c t i o n i n c o n t e s t of a dec is ion by a pane l , c o d t t e e , Bureau of t h e Budget, o r t h e l i k e , t o r e s t o r e what has been taken away. United S t a t e s Air Force d i c t i o n a r y , cour tesy of M r . O r r .

Morris :

Orr :

Morris.:

O r r :

Morris :

Orr :

Morris :

Orr :

I n some of t h e b r i e f i n g s e s s i o n s t h a t I understand would go on before cabine t meetings, would the d i scuss ion be t h a t so-and-so has appealed a f i nance ques t ion and maybe we should t a k e another look a t i t ?

I f I made a r u l i n g , t he next board of appeal would be t h e s e c r e t a r y t h a t had t h a t given department. For i n s t ance , the s e c r e t a r y of Business and Transpor ta t ion would t ake up the cudgels f o r Business and Transpor- t a t i o n , and t h a t would be done occas iona l ly i n cab ine t meetings. But gene ra l ly I was supported by both Ed Meese and Ronald Reagan. A s they came t o know t h a t , t he s e c r e t a r i e s would usua l ly t r y t o work wi th me ou t s ide of t h e cab ine t , because they ha t ed t o go i n and g e t turned down pub l i c ly .

-

Even i n t h a t sma l l group.

Even i n t h a t smal l group. It wasn ' t t h a t sma l l . The cab ine t was only seven, I guess, t h e f o u r s e c r e t a r i e s and Ed Meese and I , s i x and the governor. But around the ou t s ide of t h e cab ine t t a b l e t h e r e were another twenty. There was t h e personnel d i r e c t o r , t h e pub l i c r e l a t i o n s d i r e c t o r , and the m i n o r i t i e s d i r e c t o r , and s o t h e r e were a whole--

The s t a f f , t h e governor 's s t a f f . The gove rnor ' s s t a f f were what we c a l l t he back-benchers. I n o the r words, we s a t a t a t a b l e and they s a t i n t he c h a i r s a g a i n s t the wa l l . So t h a t anybody t h a t made h i s appeal had an audience of twenty o r twenty-five. It wasn ' t j u s t a l i t t l e close-held group. They were usua l ly s o suppor t ive of Finance t h a t most of t h e s e c r e t a r i e s would come t o me. I came t o know i f they thought i t was important enough t o come t o my o f f i c e and d i scuss i t w i t h me, t h a t i t was a very deep problem t o them, and we t r i e d t o work ou t s o l u t i o n s . You don' t g a i n anything i n f l e x i n g your muscles j u s t because t h e governor suppor ts you. I f you make too many wrong dec i s ions , h e soon lo ses h i s confidence i n you, s o i t ' s b e t t e r t o work out s o l u t i o n s t h a t don ' t cause i n t e r n a l f r i c t i o n s i f you poss ib ly can.

That seems t o have been the genera l r u l e of--

That was the gene ra l r u l e . We had good s e c r e t a r i e s . They understood t h e p re s su re Finance was under t o make cu t s when necessary, and wh i l e they didn ' t want them made i n t h e i r a r e a , you f i n a l l y j u s t have t o t r y and convince them you ' re being e q u i t a b l e and f a i r .

Move from Department of Motor V e h i c l e s t o Department of F inance

Morr is : Le t m e go back a minu te and a s k a b o u t y o u r move from t h e Department of Motor V e h i c l e s o v e r t o t h e Department of F inance . When d i d t h a t b e g i n t o b e something t h a t was t a l k e d a b o u t w i t h you?

O r r : It came i n two s t a g e s . I t h i n k i n March o r A p r i l 119691, I was c a l l e d o v e r t o t h e g o v e r n o r ' s o f f i ce - -no t t o t h e governor personally--and asked i f I would l i k e t o become d i r e c t o r o f Genera l S e r v i c e s . That was a smaller depar tment t h a n Motor V e h i c l e s , b u t more i m p o r t a n t . It had across-the-government r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s f o r p r i n t i n g and au to - mobi les and p r o p e r t y and a l l purchases .

Morr is : It had been broken o u t of t h e Department of F inance .

O r r : Many y e a r s earlier i t had been broken - o u t o f t h e Department of Finance. I s a i d c e r t a i n l y , i f t h e governor wanted m e t o go t h e r e , I ' d b e d e l i g h t e d t o t a k e t h e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y .

They s a i d , "The p r e s e n t d i r e c t o r is l o o k i n g f o r o t h e r employment. The governor d o e s n ' t want t o t e r m i n a t e him." The p r e s e n t d i r e c t o r a t t h a t t ime was Andrew I R . 1 L o l l i . "The governor knows t h a t h e ' s look- i n g and when h e f i n d s o t h e r employment, t h e n we'd l i k e t o have you s t e p i n , b u t t h e r e have been some problems i n t h e depar tment , and we'd l i k e t o have you ready t o s t e p i n t h e day h e s t e p s o u t . And p l e a s e d o n ' t t a k e any v a c a t i o n . " [ l aughs]

So I s t a y e d around i n Sacramento from A p r i l c l e a r th rough Augustand S.eptemberand October , and M r . L o l l i d i d n ' t f i n d employment t h a t s u i t e d him. About t h e f i r s t of November h e announced h e ' d b e l e a v i n g t h e f i f t e e n t h , as I remember. About t h a t t ime M r . Weinberger t o l d t h e governor t h a t h e ' d b e coming back t o f e d e r a l government. My boss , who was t h e s e c r e t a r y of Business and T r a n s p o r t a t i o n , Gordon Luce, thought I would make a good d i r e c t o r o f Finance. He u rged me t o make a p p l i c a t i o n f o r i t ; h e was a s t r o n g s u p p o r t e r of mine. So I went i n t o t h e governor a t h i s request - -

Morr i s : A t t h e governor ' s r e q u e s t ?

O r r : A t t h e s e c r e t a r y of Business and T r a n s p o r t a t i o n ' s r e q u e s t . I made a n appointment w i t h t h e governor , and i t was one of t h e s h o r t e s t appo in t - ments on r e c o r d . I probably was i n t h e r e only t h r e e m i n u t e s . I s a i d , "Governor, I ' m n o t going t o t e l l you my q u a l i f i c a t i o n s . I ' v e now worked f o r you a lmos t t h r e e y e a r s . But M r . Luce t h i n k s I would make a good d i r e c t o r of Finance. That would b e a v e r y c h a l l e n g i n g p o s i t i o n , and I would l i k e t o have my name cons idered . But ," I s a i d , "I have one d i f f i c u l t y , and t h a t i s t h a t w i t h i n t h e n e x t two weeks I 'm going over t o become y o u r d i r e c t o r of General S e r v i c e s and I

Orr : would be very d isappoin ted i f my name came t o t h e top of t h e l i s t and you and o the r s f e l t , 'Well, h e ' s a good man, bu t we j u s t p u t him i n General Se rv i ces and we c a n ' t move him."'

The governor s a i d , "Verne, I ' l l make an agreement with you. I f your name should come t o t h e top of t h e l i s t , I w i l l - n o t l e t t h a t i n t e r f e r e . " So I went t o General Serv ices on November 1 5 , u n o f f i c i a l l y I became t h e d i r e c t o r of General Serv ices December f i r s t . The day b e f o r e Christmas t h e governor c a l l e d me and s a i d my name had come t o t h e top of t h e l i s t , and he was i n v i t i n g me t o b e d i r e c t o r of Finance e f f e c t i v e January f i r s t [1970]. So I served one month o f f i c i a l l y a s d i r e c t o r of General Serv ices . Actual ly fo r ty - f ive days i n t he c h a i r and moved on.

Morris : Qui te a Christmas p r e s e n t .

Orr : It was a Christmas p r e s e n t . It was a very i n t e r e s t i n g example of Ronald Reagan being a s good a s h i s word.

Morris: Did you have an oppor tuni ty t o t a l k wi th M r . Weinberger? Did he do some b r i e f i n g and o r i e n t a t i o n o r whatnot?

Orr : A s soon a s I got t h e job, t h e day be fo re Christmas, I c a l l e d M r . Wein- b e r g e r ' s home. He had a l r eady checked ou t , because of Christmas and th.en New Year 's; h e was through December 3 1 s t . So he 'd packed up and gone t o San Francisco. When I c a l l e d M r . Weinberger's home and Jane , h i s w i fe , answered, and I t o l d he r I had j u s t been s e l e c t e d t o be h e r husband's successor , s h e s a i d , "Oh, you poor man." [laughs] Which I th.ought was a very discouraging r eac t ion .

I asked i f I could s e e M r . Weinberger f o r a b r i e f i n g , and s h e s a i d s h e w a s s o r r y but he was planning on leaving immediately f o r t h e f e d e r a l government, because he was due t o t ake over on January second. I never got t o t a l k t o him f o r a minute.

Morris : I ' l l be darned.

O r r : Not even on t h e phone.

Looking Back on Caspar Weinberger a s Di rec tor of Finance; Making Changes i n Finance

Morris: What kind of conversa t ions had you had wi th him j u s t i n t h e course of being around Sacramento?

O r r : Of course , when he was d i r e c t o r of Finance, - a l l departments had t o p re sen t t h e i r budgets t o him. That was s t anda rd a t t h a t time. I t changed when I came i n . But p r i o r t o my coming i n a s d i r e c t o r of

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Finance, every department i n the s t a t e was given a two o r t h r e e hour audience wi th the d i r e c t o r of Finance, and s a t t h e r e and--In p repa ra t ion f o r t h a t we spent hours on dry runs g e t t i n g me up t o speed on the e n t i r e budget.

I would have what i s now c a l l e d a "murder board" i n which my top people would s i t around and I ' d s i t a t t h e head of t he t a b l e , and they would f i r e ques t ions a t me about my budget. I would answer, and i f i t wasn ' t r i g h t they'd say no, h e r e ' s t h e answer. Then I would go over t o s e e M r . Weinberger, very nervous, very much on edge.

J u s t you and he?

He and I. I was probably f lanked w i t h t h r e e subord ina t e s , and he was f lanked wi th th ree subord ina tes , bu t i t was b a s i c a l l y between t h e two of us . On t h e occasions t h a t I went over, maybe p a r t l y because t h e r e was a f e e l i n g I ran a good department and p a r t l y because i t was M r . Weinberger's s t y l e , h e never asked me ques t ions about t h e budget a s a whole; he would p i ck one f a c e t of our ope ra t ion t h a t i n t e r e s t e d him, l i k e d r i v i n g l i c e n s e examiners.

He wauld query me i n very k indly terms. It was no t an a n t a g o n i s t i c head t o head. It was more: I ' m seeking informat ion . Why do you do t h i s ? Is i t e f f e c t i v e ? How many people do you have employed i n t h i s opera t ion? Are you asking f o r more? That s o r t of th ing . Noexhaustive survey a t a l l ; a f r i e n d l y inqu i ry about t h e opera t ion , and t h a t would end i t . And a l l of my nervousness had been f o r nought.

[ laughing] I t 's o f t e n t h e case.

Yes, yes .

Did you f i n d those se s s ions with Weinberger u s e f u l i n terms of working ou t department problems?

I t h i n k t h e g r e a t e s t use was the f a c t i t made m e s tudy t h e budget t o t h e p o i n t where I knew i t i n t i m a t e l y .

Your preparation--

Yes, my p repa ra t ion wasworthmore than the opera t ion . As a ma t t e r of f a c t , when I became d i r e c t o r of Finance, t h e governor changed i t and made i t s o t h e d i r e c t o r of Finance no longer d id t h a t .

I t a lked t o J i m Dwight yesterday af te rnoon. He was t e l l i n g me a l i t t l e b i t about t h a t process of tu rn ing around budgets back t o t h e departments.

He put them back t o t h e s e c r e t a r i e s . What would happen is t h a t then, f o r i n s t ance , t he Department of Motor Vehicles would j u s t i f y its budget t o t h e s e c r e t a r y of Business and Transpor ta t ion .

Morris : Oh., I see .

Orr : And Finance would have a p a r t i c i p a n t i n t h a t , one of TUY c i v i l s e r v a n t s ; no t a top-ranked man, bu t t h e man who was given j u r i s d i c t i o n over t h a t p a r t i c u l a r department, would sit i n on t h a t meeting. The success of those meetings p r e t t y w e l l depended on t h e i n d i v i d u a l s e c r e t a r y and h i s r e l a t i o n s h i p with t h e Department of Finance. Those t h a t got a long w e l l would accept almost any sugges t ion made by my r e p r e s e n t a t i v e a s being t h e l a s t word.

I f a department came i n f o r t e n more people i n d r i v i n g l i c e n s e examiners, and t h e Finance person would s i t t h e r e and say , "Gee, I don' t th ink we can j u s t i f y t h a t . It looks l i k e t h e r e a r e enough i n t h a t func t ion , " t h e s e c r e t a r y probably would s a y , "Well, I ' l l t u r n t h a t down." I f t h e man from Finance would s a y , "Yes, we've s t u d i e d i t and t h a t appears t o us t o be l o g i c a l , " then t h e s e c r e t a r y would accept i t .

Now i f we had a secretary--and we had one--who d i d n ' t have a l o t of r e s p e c t f o r Finance, he wouldn't n e c e s s a r i l y accept Finance 's opinion. H e wauld make an i s s u e of i t , and we would have more of an a n t a g o n i s t i c d i scuss ion . But i n t h r e e of t h e f o u r s e c r e t a r i e s , t h e r e were. very few arguments. I f our people s a i d , "We c a n ' t j u s t i f y i t , I 1

t h e s e c r e t a r y genera l ly d i d n ' t accept i t . I f our people s a i d , "We've looked a t i t , . i t ' s a good move, " t h e s e c r e t a r y would accept i t .

Morrik: Could I hazard a guess t h a t i t might have been Health and Human Services wi th which you had the d i f f i c u l t y ?

O r r : That would be an accu ra t e guess. There was always a g r e a t d e a l of controversy between those departments u n t i l M r . [James E . ] Jenkins came i n . M r . Jenkins t r i e d extremely d i l i g e n t l y t o end the cont roversy , t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t he had a very d e l i g h t f u l c o c k t a i l p a r t y i n h i s home t h e f i r s t o r second week he was i n o f f i c e i n d i c h he i n v i t e d h i s people and my people s o t h a t we could meet s o c i a l l y and t r y t o g e t over t h i s long-standing disagreement.

Morris: Now., do I h e a r you c o r r e c t l y ? The antagonism was between departments w i th in th.e Health and Welfare a r e a ?

O r r : No, the antagonism was between the Department of Finance and the s e c r e t a r i a t of Health and Human Se rv ices , and i n t h a t p o s i t i o n h e [ Jenkins] represented h i s department. We a c t u a l l y had confronta t ions wi th mainly Welfare andMedi-Cal Se rv i ces , no t too many wi th a l l of the o t h e r s , l i k e R e h a b i l i t a t i o n and Correc t ions . But i t was the very fast-growing, very expensive Welfare andMedi-Cal Services over which w e had many, many disagreements.

O r r : We had many arguments about caseload growth and t h a t t r i gge red budgets . I n o the r words, the Welfare budgets almost e n t i r e l y depended on how many people a r e going t o be on we l f a re . TheMedi-Calis dependent on how many people a r e going t o be on medical s e r v i c e and what t he b i l l s a r e a p t t o be. W e d i d n ' t eve r f i n d ourse lves i n very g r e a t agreement.

Senate Confirmation and In t roduc t ion t o t h e Department

Morris: Before we g e t p a s t i t , d i r e c t o r of Finance i s one of t he p o s i t i o n s t h a t goes t o t h e s t a t e s e n a t e f o r confirmation?

O r r : Y e s .

Morris: What kind of an experience was t h a t ?

O r r : That was no problem because I had been t h r e e y e a r s d i r e c t o r of Motor Vehicles; I knew them, and I th ink I had t h e i r r e s p e c t , and the re was no problem.

Morris: It was p r o forma r a t h e r than a--?

O r r : Merely p ro forma. I n t h e s t a t e , you s e e , i t ' s a l i t t l e d i f f e r e n t [ than i n t h e f e d e r a l government.] I n t h e f e d e r a l government, you c a n ' t s i t behind a desk and s t a r t t o do a p i e c e of work u n t i l you ' re confirmed. I n t h e s t a t e , you go i n t o t h e job and you work, and maybe s i x months l a t e r they g e t around t o confirming you. You a r e simply a nonconfirmed b u t l e g a l l y a c t i n g appointee. So I probably was i n the o f f i c e s e v e r a l months be fo re they even got around t o confirming me, and most of t h e sena to r s knew me. There was no problem.

Morris: Was J i m Mills chairman of the [Senate] Rules Committee a t t h a t p o i n t ?

O r r : Yes, I ' m s u r e he .was .

Morris: He had s o r t of an ant i - the-governor 's-off ice s t a n c e a t t h a t p o i n t . Did h e e x h i b i t any of t h a t i n t h e conf i rmat ion .hear ing?

O r r : No, I d i d n ' t g e t any personal animosity whats0eve.r.

Morris: Any que.stioning about t h e governor 's i d e a s on f inance?

O r r : I c a n ' t hones t ly remember. I j u s t know nothing s t ands ou t i n my memory a s having been d i f f i c u l t , no r , f o r me, even nerve-wrackfng. I d i d n ' t expect a d i f f i c u l t t ime, and I d i d n ' t g e t a d i f f i c u l t t ime.

Morris: Having d e a l t w i th Cap Weinberger's approach t o t he budget, t he l e g i s l a t u r e he ld no f e a r s ?

O r r : I ' m an e n t i r e l y d i f f e r e n t type of person from Cap, and the sena to r s knew i t . Cap en joys confronta t ion ; h e ' s a very ha rd f i g h t e r . I suppose I 'm much. more of you might say a compromiser, o r you might say a l e s s a n t a g o n i s t i c person.

One i n c i d e n t t h a t was i n t e r e s t i n g : B i l l Bagley was a l eade r of t h e minor i ty , t h e Republican p a r t y , i n the house, i n t h e lower house, and I had known B i l l very w e l l . So a week o r two a f t e r I was d i r e c t o r of Finance, I went up about f i v e - t h i r t y o r six o 'c lock t o B i l l ' s o f f i c e . He t r a d i t i o n a l l y had a b o t t l e and a few f r i e n d s of h i s from t h e l e g i s l a t u r e i n . I walked i n . B i l l welcomed me and p u t h i s arms around me and s a i d , "God, we've got a d i r e c t o r of Finance t h a t wants t o have a d r i n k with us . It 's a new day." And h e gave me a wh i t e horse . It was, I th ink , t h e whi te ho r se from a White Horse Scotch.

He gave me t h i s wh i t e horse and he s a i d , "Here's a man who ri'des a white horse." It was t h a t kind of f r i endsh ip . I o f t e n would go up and d i scuss our problems over a d r i n k a t six o ' c lock a t n i g h t and work ou t th ings t h a t way; t h e r e f o r e , meetings be£ o r e committees were somewhat l e s s a n t a g o n i s t i c , because we had t r i e d t o so lve our problems i n a s o c i a l s e t t i n g .

Morris: Work out some of t h e bumps beforehand.

O r r : They knew t h a t from t h e t h r e e yea r s I ' d been d i r e c t o r of Motor Vehicles . We knew each o t h e r . So we got along q u i t e w e l l . Now, t h e r e were f r i c t i o n s ; t h e r e always a r e i n d i f f e r e n t p a r t i e s , i n d i f f e r e n t designs. You don ' t s o l v e every th ing j u s t by going up and having a dr ink . But a t l e a s t when you r e s p e c t each o t h e r a s persons , i t takes t h e pe r sona l animosity away.

Morris: M r . Bagley r e c a l l s t h a t t h e r e was a car toon of Governor Reagan on the wal l .

O r r : Yes. That was the whi te ho r se , I th ink . The governor had come r i d i n g i n t o town on a whi te charger , determined t o c l ean up t h e town. I th ink i t was an o l d car toon from t h e governor 's f i r s t e l e c t i o n days.

Morris: Now, t h a t ' s i n t e r e s t i n g . M r . Bagley's r e c o l l e c t i o n is t h a t i t was a r a t h e r naughty car toon of M r . Reagan i n an Afro.

O r r : I don ' t remember i t . I don ' t remember. I j u s t remember h e gave-- I s t i l l have t h e whi te horse a t home on my desk. It was given t o me i n the sense of a compliment. B i l l gave i t t o me meaning i t t o be a compliment, and t h a t ' s why I ' v e kep t i t .

Morris: Ce r t a in ly . I t 's a n i c e kind of souveni r .

Morris: How about Governor Reagan? Since, a s you say , you were a d i f f e r e n t kind of a person than Cap Weinberger, what kind of o r i e n t a t i o n d id he and Ed Meese, who by then was execut ive d i r e c t o r , g i v e you? Did they sit down and t a l k w i th you?

O r r : No, they never d i d . Ed and I became very c l o s e f r i e n d s , and h e was always very suppor t ive . H e was the l e a d e r , a s I t o l d you be fo re , of t h e cab ine t , t h e unquestioned l e a d e r of t h e cab ine t , and always supported me. But, aga in , we t r i e d t o work ou t , o r work i n c o o p e r a t i o n , s o t h a t i t was easy f o r him t o suppor t me. I n o t h e r words, be fo re we got i n t o open meeting, i f I f e l t t h e r e was a ques t ion I ' d go - s e e Ed and t a l k i t over wi th him.

I th ink t h e governor a s an i n d i v i d u a l p l a c e s his confidence i n an appointee, and i f t h e i r s t y l e is conf ron ta t iona l , t h a t ' s f i n e ; i f i t ' s non-confrontat ional , t h a t ' s a l l r i g h t . The governor himself tends t o have somewhat of a confrontat ional--

Morris : Does, he?

O r r : Yes. Yes, h e r e a l l y enjoys a good head-to-head f i g h t . He l i k e s t o mix i t up h imsel f . He worked on t a x reform and went head-to-head wi th J i m Mills and Bob More t t i i n a s e r i e s of ten o r twelve meetings l a s t - i n g t e n o r twelve days i n which he took t h e l e a d h imsel f . I s a t i n on them, b u t t h e r e was no ques t ion . He was doing the arguing. And sometimes i t was hea ted arguing. He enjoys t h a t .

You can n o t i c e i t h e r e i n t h e f e d e r a l government. When he be l i eves i n defense, h e makes no c u t s ; h e j u s t s t a n d s f i rm.

Morris : Was t h a t con f ron ta t iona l approach ev ident i n t h e cabine t meetings, too?

O r r : Oh., q u i t e th.e oppos i te . Qui te t h e oppos i te . I n t h e cab ine t meetings with. h i s own appoin tees , t he governor s h i e s away from any conf ron ta t ion . No, he. doesn ' t l i k e con f ron ta t ion . H e ' s not even too comfortable i f two of h i s cabine t members g e t i n t o a s t r o n g disagreement i n f r o n t of him. He would much r a t h e r they would work i t o u t , and t h a t ' s where Ed Meese used t o f i t i n .

Most of t h e th ings brought t o t h e cab ine t were brought a f t e . r disagreeme.nts had been i roned o u t . It wasn ' t too o f t e n , occas iona l ly b u t not too o f t e n , t h a t r e a l s t r o n g disagreements were br0ugh.t c l e a r t o t h e governor. The cab ine t i t s e l f t r i e d t o i r o n out its problems. and worked q u i t e cohesively.

Morris: Is t h e r e ever a problem wi th t h a t kind of a process t h a t you l o s e some u s e f u l i deas i n t he process of working out a disagreement?

O r r : It 's poss ib l e . What I d id i n Finance on occasion (and i t would be a r a r e occasion, b u t I suppose I d i d i t a t l e a s t once a yea r f o r t h e f i v e y e a r s I was t h e r e ) when one of my deput ies would f e e l very f i r m l y ahout an i s s u e and I would make t h e dec i s ion a g a i n s t him, I would i n v i t e him t o come i n t o cab ine t and make h i s p r e s e n t a t i o n , and I would say t o t h e governor, "Now, Governor, I ' v e made a dec i s ion f o r Finance, and my dec i s ion i s we should o r should n o t do t h i s , b u t my deputy f e e l s s o s t r o n g l y about i t t h a t I have i n v i t e d him h e r e t o make h i s own p r e s e n t a t i o n , and because I ' v e done i t , I ' m n o t going t o b e upse t i f you go w i t h him i n s t e a d of me. This is an issue t h a t I th ink you ought t o have both s i d e s o f . I f - I gave you both s i d e s , I 'd be b iased because I have--"

Morris: Decided on t h i s .

O r r : "--decided one way and he th inks another . " And t h a t way, I t r i e d t o make s u r e t h a t on some very c r u c i a l issues--not many, b u t some. c r u c i a l issues-- the governor got both s i d e s .

Now, I have done t h a t once h e r e [ i n Washington] with Cap Weinberger. We had a s e l e c t i o n of a bomber, and one of my people who was head of t h e bomber command d id not agree wi th my dec i s ion . So I t o l d M r . Wein- berger t h a t I wanted t o b r i n g him i n and l e t him make h i s own p i t c h . Then M r . Weinberger would g e t i t s t r a i g h t from him with no diminution of h i s argument. When h e f i n i s h e d , I s a i d , "Now, M r . Weinberger, I ' v e heard h i s arguments; you? heard h i s arguments; recommendation is a g a i n s t i t , b u t t h e f i e l d IS yours . I'

I d id t h a t probably n o t o f t e n e r than once a y e a r and maybe not t h a t o f t e n , b u t on some c r u c i a l i s s u e s , I l e t t he governor make up h i s own mind.

M0rri.s: Kind of a minori ty r e p o r t .

O r r : Exact ly.

Morris: Would you r e c a l l what some of those were?

O r r : They - a l l involved taxes . But I don ' t r e c a l l t h e s p e c i f i c s .

Morris : Tax l e g i s l a t i o n ?

O r r : Yes. They d i d n o t , any of them, revolve around budgeting. You s e e , t h e Fi.nance d i r e c t o r i n C a l i f o r n i a a l s o has r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r t a x e s .

Morris: I ' m no t q u i t e c l e a r about t h a t . There 's a Franchise Tax Board, which does th.e c o l l e c t i n g .

O r r : Yes, b u t t h e Department of Finance has t o recommend t o t h e governor whether t he s a l e s t a x w i l l be four cen t s o r f i v e cen t s o r s i x c e n t s . The Franchise Tax Board j u s t c o l l e c t s i t . The Department of Finance

O r r : has t o recommend whether income t a x r a t e s should be r a i s e d o r lowered, and w h e t h e r - a l l taxes--he has t h e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o ba lance t h e budget. And h e can do i t i n two ways: up t h e revenue--

Morris : O r decrease. t h e spending.

O r r : --or drop t h e spending, o r a mixture of both. I f i t 's imposs ib le t o c u t t he spending enough, a s i t was i n some cases , then It 's up t o t h e d i r e c t o r of Finance t o recommend t o t h e governor what taxes he r a i s e s . Should he r a i s e t h e s a l e s t ax? Should he r a i s e t h e income t a x ? What should he do? It was on taxes more than budget ing, and I had a s t r o n g , capable deputy--he's now i n Ca l i fo rn i a . Ken Hal l . He had very f i r m ideas on t axes , and when I d i d n ' t ag ree wi th him i n a couple o r t h r e e i n s t a n c e s , o r maybe one a y e a r , I i n v i t e d him t o g i v e h i s views t o t h e governor who respec ted Ken very much. And I d i d n ' t always win. [ te lephone i n t e r r u p t i o n ]

Taking Charge of Finance: The Withholding Issue##

Morris: How d id you go about tak ing charge of t h e Department of Finance when you went i n a s d i r e c t o r f o r Ronald Reagan?

O r r : I had a very i n t e r e s t i n g in t roduc t ion . As I t o l d you, I was i n v i t e d t o t a k e i t over on t h e day be fo re Christmas, and s o t h e day a f t e r Christmas, s i n c e Cap had a l r eady p u l l e d o u t , I s l i p p e d i n t o t h e cha2.r. I suspec t i t was t h a t f i r s t day t h a t s e v e r a l members of t h e governor 's s - t a f f came t o me and s a i d , "Ve.rne, one of your ob l iga t ions is t o ge.t the. governor t o draw away from opposing withholding t ax . "

Then subsequent ly dur ing t h e day o r two t h a t followed--

Morris: Hi.s oppos i t ion t o withholding t ax?

O r r : H i s oppos i t ion t o withholding, which was ve ry , very f i rm. He had made s t a t emen t s , a s you know, such as t h e f a c t t h a t t axes should h u r t and he d i d n ' t b e l i e v e i n withholding, and h e thought withholding made i t i n v i s i b l e s i n c e you only look a t your take-home pay.

Then members of t h e f inance department came i n and t o l d me t h a t t h e s t a t e , t h e y e a r a f t e r t h a t , would not be a b l e t o opera te any longer unless we went t o withholding. The reason was t h a t our b i g t a x income a t t h a t time came from t h e income t a x , and t h a t was pa id i n t o t h e s t a t e on Apr i l 15 th , w i th some of t he heavier taxpayers paying a p o r t i o n on roughly November 15 th . But b a s i c a l l y , our expenses s t a r t e d Ju ly 1st and r an cumulative, each month p i l i n g on t h e month a f t e r . By sometime around January o r e a r l y February, expenses would have climbed above revenues. While wi th what came i n i n Apr i l t h e

Orr : year would h e i n balance, we would have no way i n t h e l a t t e r p a r t of February and a l l of March and t h e f i r s t week i n Apr i l t o pay our b i l l s , our employees, and th.e l i k e , un less w e got more r egu la r income.

L l i s t e n e d t o them, and then I had an exhaus t ive p re sen ta t ion . It appeared t o me t h a t i t was abso lu t e ly c o r r e c t , t h a t t h e r e j u s t was no o t h e r way. The s t a t e was p roh ib i t ed from borrowing except on b o n d s v o t e d by t h e people. W e could not even i s s u e what a r e now c a l l e d t a x a n t i c i p a t i o n n o t e s , which a r e no te s t o banks: t h a t s a y , 11 Look, l oan us t he money. You know p e r f e c t l y w e l l w e 're going t o g e t i t i n t h e income tax." That 's conrmonly done i n many a r e a s .

So I worked and worked on i t the f i r s t week I was i n o f f i c e , the f i r s t f u l l week o f f i c i a l l y i n o f f i c e , and I t h i n k about January 7th I s a i d t o t h e governor, "I have t o make a p r e s e n t a t i o n t o you t h a t ' s very important ." So he c a l l e d an expanded cab ine t meeting and had people l i k e Hugh [Houston] Flournoy from t h e c o n t r o l l e r ' s o f f i c e , and t h e l i e u t e n a n t governor, and l o t s of people t h a t normally don ' t sit i n on a cab ine t meeting. I had made my p r e s e n t a t i o n , worked i t ou t very c a r e f u l l y , on what I l i k e t o make p re sen ta t ions on, bu tcher paper , t h e kind of c h a r t s t h a t f l i p over t he top. Nothing e l a b o r a t e , such a s drawn on s l i ckboa rds , b u t done wi th b i g r ed and b l u e crayon- type p e n c i l s .*

Morris: Done i n advance, o r do you draw as you t a l k ?

O r r : Done i n advance, b u t then I could t a l k w i th a crayon and mark i t up a s I went. It was a l l prepared, b u t I would use t h i s t o emphasize o r draw under a l i n e , o r emphasize a l i n e i n r ed t h a t was otherwise i n black.

I made t h e p r e s e n t a t i o n t o Ronald Reagan t h a t , i n e f f e c t , s a i d t h e s t a t e c a n ' t go on wi thout withholding. Now, t h i s had been a p r e s e n t a t i o n which Finance people had been t r y i n g t o g e t made t o t h e governor but hadn ' t succeeded [ i n doing]. Nobody wanted t o make i t . Here I was, only a week i n o f f i c e , b u t I f e l t i t had t o be made.

There was a long s i l e n c e . Ronald Reagan s a t t h e r e f o r a t l e a s t a minute without say ing a t h ing when I f in i shed , and then he s a i d , I' You mean i t ' s l i k e t h e emperor's c l o t h e s , I' meaning t h a t nobody had been w i l l i n g t o t e l l him he cou ldn ' t l i v e wi.thout withholding.

Hugh. Flournoy was very suppor t ive . Hugh was t h e c o n t r o l l e r and knew f i g u r e s and knew exac t ly where our cash problems were. The governor s a i d , "Well, I ' l l have t o t h ink i t over." He thought i t over f o r about t h i r t y days. F i n a l l y he e l e c t e d t o go--[he.said] he would have t o go very r e l u c t a n t l y with wi thold ing , which he ha ted t o do.

*These hand-drawn c h a r t s a r e among t h e s t a t e f i nance m a t e r i a l s i n t he Reagan gube rna to r i a l c o l l e c t i o n a t t h e Hoover I n s t i t u t i o n .

O r r : Of course , - now, a f t e r having badgered him cons t an t ly t o go f o r with- holdfng, t h e Democrats s e l z e d upon t h e f a c t t h a t he had t o have i t , and s o they wouldn't g ive i t t o him.

Morris: My good heavens!

O r r : T h a t ' s t h e k ind of s tandard i n p o l i t i c s , t h a t when h e won't move you badger him t o move, and when you s e e t h a t h e moves out of n e c e s s i t y , then you deny i t u n t i l you ge t some quid f o r i t .

Morris: What d id 'they want i n r e t u r n ?

O r r : I th ink mostly harrassment , a c t u a l l y .

Morris: Had you gone up and t a lked wi th More t t i o r Bagley a f t e r work and s a i d t h e governor was about t o change?

Orr : No. No, about t h a t one, I never t a lked t o anybody.

Morris: What d id he do? Put i t i n h i s annual message th.at y e a r ?

O r r : No, what a c t u a l l y happened was. t h a t h e e l e c t e d t o announce i t , bu t a r e p o r t e r scooped us . It broke be fo re t he governor planned by a day o r two. I th ink i t broke on - my desk o r someone e l s e ' s by a r e p o r t e r t h a t read i t upside down.

Morris : Oh-oh.. A good j o u r n a l i s t i c s k i l l .

O r r : Yes. I th ink some r e p o r t e r came i n t o t a l k ; i t could have been t o me, o r i t could have been t o someone e l s e . I r e a l l y am f i rmly convinced nobody leaked i t i n t h e sense--here we worry, i n t h e f e d e r a l government, about d e l i b e r a t e l e a k s . I th ink some r e p o r t e r , maybe during a te lephone conversa t ion when the. person was d ive r t ed , had developed the. s k i l l t o read upside down, which. can be done. I used t o have i t because I was e d i t o r of t h e co l l ege newspaper [ laughs] and you l e a r n t o read l i no type backwards. I t ' s no t hard t o do i f you want t o spend a l i t t l e time, and I suppose a s a good i n v e s t i g a t i v e r e p o r t e r you p i c k up some i n t e r e s t i n g t i d b i t s .

Morris: Wherever you can, I guess.

Orr : So i t broke a day o r two be fo re t h e governor intended t o announce i t . A s I remember i t , t h e n h e had t o c a l l a p re s s conference and c0nf i .m i t .

Morris: I see . Did those k inds of leaks. cause a f l a p a t t he o f f i c e ?

O r r : No, t h a t ' s t h e only one I can remember t h a t was d i f f i c u l t . I t 's nothing l i k e t h e f e d e r a l government, where i t ' s a r egu la r game.

Morris: You s a i d t h a t people i n t h e Department of Finance br0ugh.t you t h i s information, your f i r s t - -

O r r : Yes., my top c i v i l s e r v a n t s . They h.ad been t r ack ing i t f o r y e a r s .

Morris: So you got your f i r s t b r i e f i n g from t h e people in th.e c a r e e r c i v i l s e . ~ c e .

O r r : I ' m i n c l i n e d t o t h ink I got my f i r s t t ip-off from t h e 'governor's o f f f c e , t h e people over t h e r e . Not t he Meeses, b u t people a l i t t l e lower than t h a t .

Morris: Win Adam was around then? He was r e a l l y i n t e r e s t e d .

O r r : I c a n ' t remember who d i d i t , bu t t h e r e were people below Ed Meese. t h a t came t o me and s a i d , "Gosh, you've got t o convince t h e governor w e j u s t c a n ' t go on t h i s way very much longer ."

Morris: And then you went back t o t h e department--

O r r : Then about s imultaneously, o r a day o r two l a t e r , my people we.re making r e g u l a r b r i e f i n g s , and they came. i n and gave m e t h e whole s t o r y of why we cou ldn ' t go on.

Choosing S t a f f

Morris: What di.d you look f o r i n th.e people t h a t you brought with. you, o r went o u t and r e c r u i t e d , a s your deputy and t h e o ther exempt pos i t i .ons .

O r r : I d i d n ' t b r ing anybody wi th me. I entered w i t h J i m Dwight [James D. Dwight, Jr.] a s t he ch ief deputy.

Morris: He'd been t h e r e a whi le .

O r r : He'd been t h e r e s i n c e t h e governor came. He came i n t o the Department of Finance be fo re t h e governor even came up t o Sacramento. He was our advance man.

Morris : Tha t ' s what he s a i d .

O r r : J i m went up t h e r e i n t h e days. f.n which. Hale Champi on was still the re . J i m has probably t o l d you, a s he. has me, t h e s t o r y t h a t Hale s a i d something t o him about , 'We're. s p e n d h g a mi l l i on d o l l a r s a day more than we ' r e taH.ng i n . Good luck. I'

Morris: Were. you f a m i l i a r w i th J i m from--?

O r r : No. Not r e a l l y , except a s I knew him s l igh t ly . . Having served i n the. s t a t e government, you know him, b u t no t i n t i m a t e l y .

Kirk West was the jun io r deputy. Kirk l a t e r l e f t us t o go over t o work f o r t h e c o n t r o l l e r . I brought i n a f r i e n d then . I brought i n a co l l ege classmate, Ed [Edward M.] F ryer , t o be j u n i o r deputy.

L e t ' s s e e , I guess f i r s t [pauses] I brought i n Ken [Kenneth F.] Ha l l . I ' m t r y i n g t o remember how they came i n . Ken, I bedieve , w a s t h e f i r s t one i n , and h e replaced Kirk West. Then Ken moved up t o s e n i o r deputy, and I brought Ed Fryer i n a s j un io r deputy. Then when Ken r a n f o r p u b l i c o f f i c e a s an assemblyman, Ed Fryer moved up t o be t h e sen&or deputy, and we brought Tim Cole i n . Tim is back h e r e now [ i n Washington], a s you know. He works i n Transpor ta t ion .

Morris: Right . And he 'd been i n t h e governoils p r e s s s e c t i o n ?

O r r : I th ink h e was i n not t h e p r e s s , b u t t h e l i a i s o n with. t he l e g i s l a t u r e .

Morris: Some of those movements i n l e g i s l a t i o n and p r e s s , we still have t o s o r t ou t .

O r r : Well, I be l i eve Tim came t o me from having worked i n l e g i s l a t i v e a f f a i r s , bu t h e was i n t h e governor 's o f f i c e . L e t ' s s e e . I don ' t remember where I got Ken Hal l from. But I th ink i t was from Business and Transpor t a t ion , where h e was Gordon Luce's a s s i s t a n t . I got t o know him t h e r e and thought very h ighly of him--a smart i n d i v i d u a l . Ed Fryer I brought i n because I knew him from c i v i l i a n l i f e . Ed was a t a change i n h i s l i f e . He had been a co l l ege p ro fe s so r a t my o l d school f o r about n ine teen y e a r s , a phys ics p r o f e s s o r a t Pomona College, and he had l e f t t h a t t o go with Varian Associates i n San Jose o r thereabouts , S i l i c o n Valley. I don' t know h i s t i t l e ; he may have been a v ice-pres ident . But he s tayed t h e r e t h r e e o r fou r yea r s and had l e f t and was r e t i r e d . I thought h e was a smart ind iv idua l and could he lp me, s o I convinced him t o come i n t o s t a t e government.

Then T i m Cole. I interviewed a couple o r t h r e e people. I knew T i m from h i s work around the governor 's o f f i c e and chose him a s being smart and diplomatic--and he was good.

Morris: When you got a sense of how the department opera ted , what d i d you f e e l could be done with the department?

O r r : I suppose i n gene ra l I t r i e d t o g e t more of a non-confrontat ional th ing . Finance is never very w e l l loved. You're always the boys t h a t say no. I t r i e d t o c r e a t e an atmosphere t h a t , y e s , we may have t o say no, b u t w e can do i t n i c e l y . You don' t have t o be b r u t a l about i t . So we had our job t o do, and I t r i e d t o exp la in t o people t h a t we had a job t o do and t o work wi th them t o make t h e c u t s where they ' d be t h e l e a s t h u r t f u l bu t s t i l l make the c u t s . ---

S t a t e Revenue Es:timation; S t a f f i n g from Civil Serv ice

Morris: One of t h e i s s u e s t h a t comes up o f t e n i n reading about t h e s t a t e government is t h e d i f f i c u l t y of determining what t h e revenue sou rces a r e going t o be and what t h e i r l eve l s a r e going t o be. Did you make any changes- i n how those p r o j e c t i o n s were done?

O r r : It used t o i n t e r e s t me t h a t t he l e g i s l a t u r e would rece ive t h e budget i n January and would a l l o t me one day, one p r e s e n t a t i o n on revenues and then an opening p r e s e n t a t i o n on t h e budget, and would spend t h e next s i x months on t h e budget, b u t a l l they eve r s p e n t on revenues was the one a f te rnoon hear ing . Yet t h e revenues determine - a l l of t he budget. So t h e r e is a gene ra l acceptance i n t h e s t a t e t h a t t h e revenue e s t ima t ion is n o n p o l i t i c a l .

Morris : Really?

O r r : Yes. That gene ra l ly i t is not open t o t he p o l i t i c s of d i scuss ion . It has been f o r many yea r s a po l i cy t h a t Finance ga the r s t oge the r t h e leading people i n t h e s t a t e and a couple of people from t h e East who come out a t C a l i f o r n i a ' s expense f o r about a day-and-a-half conference. We would have a l abo r l e a d e r , an a g r i c u l t u r a l l e a d e r , [someone from] a bank l i k e t h e Bank of America, from t h e a g r i c u l t u r a l l ending , head of t h e te lephone company, head of t h e gas company.

Each of them--not n e c e s s a r i l y t h e head i n t he sense of t h e ch ief opera t ing o f f i c e r , b u t t h e ch ief economist of those companies--each of them then makes a p r e s e n t a t i o n of h i s e s t ima te of C a l i f o r n i a revenue over t h e next y e a r o r two. Thetelephone company h a s t o keep up i t s r a t e s t r u c t u r e . They want t o know how many new l i n e s , what communities a r e going t o grow, what number of te lephones w i l l probably go i n .

Morris: That feeds i n t o t h e i r r a t e s p e c i f i c a t i o n s ?

O r r : It 's j u s t p a r t of t h e i r opera t ion t o t r y t o make es t imates of where we go. The same t h i n g , your a g r i c u l t u r a l expe r t s make your e s t ima te s of crops. Your bank makes an es t imate of bus iness a c t i v i t y . People make es t imates of s a l e s of automobiles, which i s c r u c i a l t o t h e s t a t e , because t h e big producer of s a l e s t a x i s t h e automobile. It's t h e b i g t i c k e t i t em t h a t br ings i n more than--

Morris : Really?

O r r : Oh yes , i t ' s extremely important . A mistake i n t h e guess t imate of how many automobile s a l e s t he re a r e i s abso lu t e ly c r u c i a l . But f o r a day and a h a l f , t he se people g ive us t h e i r b e s t advice on where we're going t o be. And we have i n i t t h e r ep re sen ta t ives of what used t o be A. Alan P o s t ' s o f f i c e , t h e l e g i s l a t i v e a n a l y s t . We i n v i t e them t o s i t r i g h t - i n and p a r t i c i p a t e .

Morris: Was t h a t an innovat ion i n your time?

O r r : No.

Morris : O r they were always the re .

O r r : They were, as f a r a s I know, always the re .

Then when a l l t h a t is ended, our people go back and work the f i g u r e s f o r about t h i r t y o r f o r t y days. I n o t h e r words, when they've got an e s t ima te of s a l e s of automobiles, they go i n and massage t h a t i n t o how many d o l l a r s t h a t means. They have an e s t ima te . They break i t down i n t o gaso l ine , which is mileage d r iven , and they break i t down i n t o t i r e s a l e s , which a r e mileage dr iven; and they break i t down i n t o dry goods c lo th ing and s t y l e , and come up wi th very complex f igu res which add t o t h e revenue. But t hey ' r e no t p o l i t i c a l .

There 's going t o be so many ca r s s o l d , and i t doesn ' t mat te r whether you ' re Democrat o r Republican, t h a t ' s how many c a r s a r e going t o be so ld . The l e g i s l a t u r e recognized t h a t . Alan Pos t was there a s a n e u t r a l obs.erver. He'd make h i s own es t ima te s , and then Alan and I would t r y and agree . There's no room f o r disagreement.

I f w e guessed, and one yea r we were guessing, t h e l e g i s l a t u r e has an even more d i f f i c u l t time than usual i n t ry ing t o p l a n expen- d i t u r e s without good knowledge of what the r e t u r n s w i l l be. And I went t o t h e l e g i s l a t u r e and s a i d , " I ' m going t o give you t h r e e estimates--a high, a low, and a middle, and I ' m t ak ing the middle." Alan d i d n ' t ag ree with me. But because we were open about i t , we s a i d , 'You, M r . Leg i s l a to r , you ' re going t o make t h e dec i s ion . I based my budget on the middle. M r . Pos t t h i n k s t h a t ' s too h igh . And he goes f o r the low. Now i f we ' re wrong and h e ' s r i g h t , then we don ' t have a s much money t o spend. But I ' m t e l l i n g you t h e adminis- t r a t i o n which - I rep resen t i s going f o r t h i s ."

Morris: P e r i o d i c a l l y t h e r e were ques t ions on both s i d e s . The ques t ion was r a i s e d e i t h e r t h a t some governors ' f i g u r e s were too high because they d i d n ' t want t o r a i s e t a x e s , and t h a t o t h e r governors managed t o f i n d a p l ace t o s q u i r r e l away some revenues because they d i d n ' t want t o r e f l e c t t h a t t h e s t a t e w a s doing a s w e l l a s i t was.

Orr : We i n h e r i t e d t h a t because P a t Brown had played games wi th revenue c o l l e c t i o n . He had d e l i b e r a t e l y , I th ink , no t given t h e f i g u r e s a s he saw them, f o r p o l i t i c a l reasons . Now, what those were escape me, bu t t h e r e was a t l e a s t t he f e e l i n g t h a t i t had not been accu ra t e .

So i n my f i r s t appearance before t he l e g i s l a t u r e , g fv ing revenue e s t ima te s , I s a i d t o them, "I recognize t h a t some of you th lnk t h a t t hese f i g u r e s have been a l t e r e d by t h e execut ive branch f o r t h e i r own purposes., s o I i n v i t e you t o b r ing every one of my people up t o t h i s

O r r : c h a i r and put them under o a t h and say t o them, 'Did t h e d i r e c t o r of Finance ever a s k you t o r a i s e o r lower o r change i n any way your ' e s t ima te? ' and you w i l l f i n d every one of them w i l l swear under oa th t h a t I haven ' t a l t e r e d t h e i r e s t ima te a b i t . " Well, [due to] t h e f a c t t h a t I chal lenged them t o do i t , they d i d n ' t do i t . But i t a l s o meant they knew I was being honest .

Morris: Had some of your c a r e e r people i n t h e department i n d i c a t e d t h a t previous governors - had as.ked them t o fudge t h e f i g u r e s ?

O r r : I wouldn't go t h a t f a r . I would only go s o f a r a s t o s ay t h e r e was a widespread opinion i n t h e p o l i t i c a l p a r t of i t . I d o n ' t r e c a l l whether it was i n t h e c i v i l s e r v i c e p a r t , b u t i n t he p o l i t i c a l p a r t , t h a t i n h i s con f ron ta t ion wi th M r . [ J e s se ] Unruh, Governor P a t Brown, a s I remember i t , had been accused of coming i n w i th lower e s t ima te s o f revenue than maybe were accu ra t e ly por t rayed by h i s people and had convinced M r . Unruh thereby, a s t h e l e a d e r of t he house, t o i n t roduce a revenue b i l l t h a t would b r i n g i n more revenue. Then M r . Brown, t h e governor, had come i n and s a i d , "We don ' t r e a l l y need a new revenue b i l l . I don ' t understand why M r . Unruh's proposing a d d i t i o n a l t axes . My es t ima te i s t h a t revenues a r e going t o be much h igher than my e a r l i e r es t imates , and taxes a r e unnecessary. " Which apparently--and t h i s is a l l hearsay, because I wasn ' t a c t i v e a t t h e time--apparently was an i n t r a p a r t y f i g h t between t h e two of them, one a t tempt ing t o d i s c r e d i t t h e o t h e r . That 's rumor only; I have no knowledge of its accuracy, bu t I do know t h a t t h e r e was some b e l i e f t h a t revenue f i g u r e s were no t accu ra t e . I th ink t h a t b e l i e f disappeared i n my yea r s .

Morris: You s a i d youbrough . t i n a couple of e a s t e r n consu l t an t s f o r t h i s process:. Was t h a t a new i d e a ?

O r r : No. No, t h a t had been done. I don' t know who they were. They were a n a l y s t s from t h e Eas t t h a t my people thought were p a r t i c u l a r l y competent. I r e a l l y don ' t know who they were. I j u s t remember t h a t we had t o g e t money appropr ia ted t o br ing them. They could have been a n a l y s t s from brokerage houses o r Chase Manhattan Bank, o r some- t h i n g l i k e t h a t .

Morris: Did you make any changes i n t h e mix of people--?

Orr : No. No, I d i d n ' t e n t e r i n t o i t a t a l l . I d i d n ' t e n t e r i n t o i t a l l . I only l e t them pursue t h e i r own course.

Morris : Would you s i t i n on t h e i r day 's d i scuss ion?

O r r : No, I d i d n ' t even do t h a t . I d i d n ' t even do t h a t .

Morris: Even i n t h e beginning, t r y i n g t o g e t a f e e l f o r t h e revenue p roces s?

Orr : Out of the f i v e y e a r s I was t h e r e , the f i v e budgets I handled, I sat i n on a t l e a s t one, maybe two, bu t as a r egu la r t h ing I d i d n ' t go over . One i n t e r e s t i n g t h i n g d id happen. The s e c r e t a r y of Heal th and Human Se rv ices , Heal th and Welfare, asked t o go over i t . I s a i d , "Sure."

Morris: Whi.ch s e c r e t a r y ? There w a s a success ion .

Orr : Earl Brian asked t o go over , and I s a i d s u r e . E a r l i s q u i t e an economist h imsel f . He's w r i t t e n a book on s t o c k market buying.

Morris : Has he.?

O r r : Yes.

Morris: I ' m going t o s e e him next week. I don, . t know i f I can g e t my hands on i t .

O r r : Well, you a s k him i f i t ' s still i n p r i n t . He had a book on--I've never seen i t , but i t was making money i n t h e s t o c k market o r how t o i n v e s t .

Morris: Don't we a l l wish we had a good book on t h a t s u b j e c t ? I l aughs l

O r r : E a r l went over t o one of t he meetings I d i d n ' t [ a t t e n d ] , andimmediately t h e rumor sprang up a l l .through t h e s t a t e t h a t I w a s l eav ing t h e Department of Finance and Earl was going t o become t h e new d i r e c t o r of Finance. That apparent ly was t r i g g e r e d by h i s going t o t h e meeting, which h e went t o simply because h e was i n t e r e s t e d . But I guess f o r s i x o r e i g h t months my s e c r e t a r y was s o fu r ious because many c a l l s would s t a r t ou t , "Is M r . O r r s t i l l t h e d i r e c t o r of Finance?"

Morris: Ilaughs] Yes, s e c r e t a r i e s r e a l l y ca re about th ings l i k e t h a t .

O r r : Yes., t h a t upse t he r .

Morris : Was t h i s t h e s e c r e t a r y t h a t you brought with you from DMV?

O r r : No, I d i d n ' t b r ing anyone from DMV. I d i d n ' t ge t t o keep Cap's s e c r e t a r y . I wanted t o , because she'd been experienced, b u t she was u t t e r l y worn out . M r . Weinberger i s a d r i v e r , and s h e s a i d , "I want t o go nowhere but t o a r e s t home." [ laughter ]

So I d id what I usua l ly do. I ' d t e l l t h e c i v i l s e r v a n t s t o do t h e screening and b r ing i n two o r t h r e e people, and I ' l l in te rv iew them and s e l e c t one.

Morris: Did you f i n d somebody - i n s t a t e government?

O r r : Oh yes , yes , I never brought anybody. I had t h e r i g h t to-- i t 's an exempt position--but I never d id t h a t .

Morris: You'd f i n d q u a l i f i e d people , then, i n t h e c i v i l s e r v i c e .

O r r : O h yes., I 've always. found. qualified people .

Program Budgeting v s . Line I t e m Budgeting; S t reaml in ing t h e Budget

Morr is : Do you have a few more minutes?

O r r : Sure, I ' v e go t l e t ' s s ay unt i .1 t e n .

Morris: I g a t h e r t h a t Ronald Reagan--and you probably had a r o l e i n develop- i n g budget assumptions o r g u i d e l i n e s f o r t h e v a r i o u s agency people a s t o what they should l ook f o r and should--

O r r : I n o t only had a r o l e i n i t , I wrote i t . That wasn ' t unique t o m e . The d i r e c t o r s of Finance always d i d t h a t .

Morris: I understand those were t h e yea r s of experimenting wi th program budgets and t h e term ''budget assumptions" was becoming a popular term.

O r r : I guess I s t and unique. I am a f i r m d i s b e l i e v e r i n program budget ing. I t is one of t h e g r e a t e s t was tes of t i m e t h a t I have eve r seen . I f you s tudy t h e h i s t o r y of it--and I used t o t each , a s you know, i n t h e gradua te school a t t h e Un ive r s i t y of Southern Ca l i fo rn i a - -you t l l s e e t h a t program budget ing is a r o l l i n g concept which s t a r t e d i n t h e f e d e r a l government. I f you read [Aaron] Wildavsky, who wri tes . on f e d e r a l budget ing, i t was thoroughly and completely disproved i n t h e f e d e r a l government. Do you know Aaron? You know who h e is.

Morris: Y e s , y e s , I ' v e been s . t ruggl ing with. t h a t book f o r some t i m e . *

O r r : I t ' s my b i b l e ; I l o v e i t .

But anyway, he proves t h a t program budget ing was u t t e r l y u s e l e s s i n t he f e d e r a l government. So about t h e t i m e they were g e t t i n g away from i t , i t became ve ry popular i n t h e s t a t e budget . About t he t i m e I was t h e r e , we were doing g r e a t th ings w i th program budgeting and a l s o running t h e l ine- i tem budget. And nobody pa id any a t t e n t i o n t o t h e program budget . It was v e r b o s i t y ; i t was words. W e budgeted on t h e l ine- i tem budget. About t h e t i m e I l e f t t h e s t a t e , i t became

*The P o l i t i c s of t h e Budgetary Process , Boston: L i t t l e , Brown, 1964.

Orr : very unpopular i n t he s t a t e and got down t o t h e c i t y and county l e v e l . So when I was teaching , t hese poor f i nance d i r e c t o r s i n the c i t y and county we.re s t r u g g l i n g wi th program budgeting. It never works, and I ' l l t e l l you why i t doesn ' t work.

It i s - not anything a l e g i s l a t u r e can accept . A l e g i s l a t u r e can look a t a l ine- i tem budget and can say t o t h e d i r e c t o r of Motor Vehicles , "You're ask ing f o r a hundred new automobiles. I ' l l only g ive you f i f t y . You're asking f o r e i g h t hundred new people. I ' l l only g ive you t h r e e hundred." He can go back t o h i s c o n s t i t u e n t s and say , "By g o l l y , I taught him t o run h i s department b e t t e r . We saved you money. We saved you f i v e hundred people and f i f t y automobiles, and t h e r e ' s no reason h e c a n ' t run an e f f i c i e n t department."

But i f you d i v i d e those up i n t o programs, i n which you have t en programs- o r twenty programs, and you say t o a l e g i s l a t u r e , ''Which program do you want me t o cu t ?" the l e g i s l a t o r goes back t o h i s home d i s t r i c t , and somebody comes up t o him and he says , "You c u t ou t t h e program t h a t was the b e s t one they e v e r had. Why, you fool!" So a l e g i s l a t o r cu t s i n l i n e i t ems , never programs.

Morris: Because they d o n ' t r e l a t e t o a s p e c i f i c func t ion?

O r r : [So] they c a n ' t ever be accus.ed of s ay ing , "My s e r v i c e i s n ' t any good because. you cu t f i f t y automobiles from t h e Department of Motor Vehicles . 'I The l e g i s l a t u r e j u s t s ays , "Oh, t h a t ' s t h e s t u p i d i t y of t h a t d i r e c t o r t h e governor appointed. I f h e knew how t o run the department, he 'd give you good s e r v i c e . I'

But i f they a c t u a l l y cu t a program, then t h e y ' r e r e spons ib l e f o r t ak ing something away from t h e p u b l i c t h a t t h e p u b l i c i s used t o , and they don ' t want t h a t . So they j u s t pay no a t t e n t i o n t o program budgets and never w i l l ! It I s . no t i n our sys tem.

Morris: Is i t t r u e t h a t those ideas s t a r t e d he re i n Washington i n t h e Depart- ment of Defense?

Orr : I n t h i s bu i ld ing [ t h e Pentagon] . It s t a r t e d he re . This [program budgeting] i s t h e g r e a t [Robert] McNamara idea .

Morris: And why d id i t ge t enough credence t h a t i t became s o e s t a b l i s h e d i n t he f e d e r a l government t h a t i t passed down t o s t a t e governments?

Orr : I suppose i n t h e Department of Defense i t comes a l i t t l e c l o s e r t o being f e a s i b l e than i t does elsewhere. Because you take a weapons sys tem and make t h a t a program, and you s a y , "Do you want t o buy t h i s weapons system?'' Well, yes I do, o r no, I don ' t . But i t r e a l l y doesn' t have much c r e d i b i l i t y anymore anywhere, I th ink . You work on l i n e i tems . The Congress wants t o know, am I going t o approve seven hundred tanks f o r t h e army o r am I going t o approve f ivehundred

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

Morris :

O r r :

tanks. They don' t want t o s ay , " I ' m going t o e l imina te - a l l t anks i n f avo r of more f o o t so ld i e r s . ' ' O r we're going t o b u i l d you more h e l i c o p t e r s and no tanks. They want t o chop a l i t t l e h e r e and a l i t t l e t h e r e and then j u s t s a y , "Well, t h e army can g e t a long with a b i t l e s s . "

But i f they had t o choose and leave a l l t h e h e l i c o p t e r s and t ake out a l l the tanks , then somebody immediately sdys , 'You've s t r i p p e d t h e army of a l l of i ts power.''

And t h a t works i n s t a t e government too, a mix of--?

Program budgets j u s t don ' t work. You ' l l never g e t a l e g i s l a t u r e t o f a c e up t o e l imina t ing programs.

Was t h a t something t h a t you made an announcement about i n t h e cab ine t , "We a r e n ' t going t o u se program budgets?"

[ M r . O r r wrote t h e fol lowing response on t h e t r a n s c r i p t . H i s o r i g i n a l comment and t h e in t e rv i ewer ' s next ques t ion were l o s t wh.en t h e tape s i d e ended:

No, program budgets were very much i n vogue, s o I d i d n ' t a t tempt t o f i g h t them. They.were prepared, b u t t h e l e g i s l a t u r e simply ignored them.

I f you have another minute, perhaps we could s t a r t on how you went about prepar ing the s t a t e budget . ]

I f you go back i n th.e y e a r s before I was d i r e c t o r of Finance, t h e budge-ts were very huge, 1400-page a f f a i r s . I f you go s t a r t i n g with my f i r s t y e a r , which was probably the budget of 1971--

--because I got i n i n January 1970. That budget was a l l made. S t a r t - i n g t h e next y e a r , y o u ' l l f i n d t h e budgets a r e very t h i n , l i t t l e four- hundred page, three-hundred page volumes. Go look a t t h e bookshelf .

I qui . t looking when t h e budgets h i t two volumes.

But I d id t h a t . And t h e reason i s the f i r s t volume i s ve ry smal l . And t h a t ' s t h e only one anybody e v e r looked a t . Tlie second volume was the hackup, and nobody pa id any a t t e n t i o n I t o i t ] . I was t r y i n g t o ge t them t o have something they would c a r r y , because I would go i n t o a l l my hear ings and they d i d n ' t even ca r ry my budgets. They c a r r i e d Alan P o s t ' s l i t t l e book of what 's wrong with my budget. So I c u t ou t a l l t h e verbiage and l e f t t h a t programming p a r t i n t h e

O r r : backup and j u s t had a t h i n budget t h a t s a i d what t h e department is doing compared t o l a s t year . You ' l l f i n d the working budget is small.

Morris: Good. I ' m g lad t o hea r t h a t . That must have been q u i t e a sav ing , too.

O r r : We may have.. had t o p r i n t them a l l . Everybody needed both., but nobody was ca r ry ing t h e budget around. It was too b i g - a n d u n d e l d y . Of course, i.t d id save , because. when we got requests--and you g e t s e v e r a l thousand--we only s e n t them V o l y e I. You had t o a c t u a l l y r eques t t h e backup.

Morris: Did you g e t l o t s of r eques t s?

O r r : Oh,yes, a l l t h e l i b r a r i e s . They may have g o t t e n both volumes. And people w r i t e i n and ask f o r t h e s t a t e budget--somebody's c i v i c s c l a s s w i l l want some and you send them budgets .

Morris.: Real ly? There 's t h a t much. i n t e r e s t i n each y e a r ' s budget?

O r r : Yes., oh. yes .

Morris: Mostly s t u d e n t , educa t iona l groups. or--?

O r r : We p u t ou t about a hundred-page summary of the budget, and I suppose we. pu t ou t f i v e thousand of those . Sometimes y o u ' l l t a k e them t o a p a r t i c u l a r l y i n t e r e s . t e d taxpayer group t h a t you've speaking t o and d i s t r f b u t e them a s a handout.

Morris: Did any of 'them ever come back wt th ideas t h a t were use fu l ?

O r r : I c a n ' t r e c a l l any. That doesn ' t mean t h e r e werenr t any. We experimented wi th h.eight c h a r t s and bar graphs and a l l of t h a t . [ b r i e f i n t e r r u p t i o n by o f f i c e s t a f f ]

Yes, I am. We're going t o f i n i s h up h e r e i n about two minutes. Maybe l e s s . I knew I ' d probably be g e t t i n g a c a l l .

Morris: Y e s . I could f e e l i t was about t h a t time.

Orr : We'l l t a k e one more ques t ion i f you've got i t , and then we' l l - -

Morris: Why don ' t w e wind up t h e r e because from h e r e on i n , I: would have more s p e c i f i c ques t ions . You r e a l l y do a n i c e job of making complicated th ings s imple .

O r r : Not a t a l l . I j u s t enjoy my work wi th government, enjoy t h i s job.

11 11

Transc r ibe r s : Michelle S t a f f o r d Marie Herold

F i n a l Typis t : Marie Herold

TAPE GUIDE -- Verne O r r

I n t e r v i e w 1: A p r i l 28, 1982 t a p e 1, s i d e A t a p e 1, s i d e B t a p e 2 , s i d e A [ s i d e B n o t r ecorded]

I n t e r v i e w 2: May 5 , 1983 t a p e 1, s i d e A t a p e 1, s i d e B t a p e 2 , s i d e A [ s i d e B n o t r ecorded]

INDEX -- Verne Orr

abortion, 5-6 agency system of administration, 13-

14, 36, 39-41 Air Force, U.S., 19, 24, 44 appointments, governor's, 9-10, 18,

31, 37 appointments, presidential, 12

Bagley, William T. 42 bar association, 26 Beilenson bill (abortion), 6, 19 black Americans, 4 Brian, Earl, Jr., 53 Bright, Tom, 12-13 Brown, Ebund G. , Sr . (Pat) , 31-32,

5 1-5 2 budget, state, 24-26, 35-36, 38-41,

54-57 business, and government, 50 Business and Transportat ion Agency,

13-14

cabinet, governor's (Ronald Reagan), 36, 43-44, 46

Chapman, Jay W., Jr., 30-33 civil service, 18, 28, 48, 53 Clark, William P., 12 Cole, Tim, 49 confirmation, 41 consumer standards, 26 Corrections, Department of, 34

federal government, 18, 41, 43-44, 49, 54-56

Finance, Department of, 49-57 budgets, 24, 35-36, 38-41, 56-57 program budgetting, 54-56 revenues, 50-53 taxes, 44-48

Flournoy , Houston (Hugh) , 46 Freyer, Edward M., 49

General Services, Department of, 37-38

Goldwater, Barry, Sr., 32 governor, off ice of (Ronald Reagan) ,

11, 18, 36, 45, 48-49 Governor's Survey on Efficiency and

Cost Control, 16-20

Hall, Kenneth F., 45, 49 Health and Human Service Agency,

14, 40-41 Health and Welfare Agency, 40 Highway Patrol, 15 Hitch, Charles, 23 Hutchinson, Ned, 18; 21

Imperial Savings and Loan, 9

Jenkins, James E., 40

Deaver, Michael K., 21-22 legislature, legislation, 6, 19, Defense, Department of, U.S., 55-56 26-27, 47, 50-52, 55-56 Dwight, James S., 48 Lolli, Andrew R., 37

Los Angeles, California grand jury, 1962, 3-5

economy, in government, 7, 10, 12- Luce, Gordon C., 11, 12-14, 37 13, 16-20, 25, 34, 49

elections, 1966, 7-8

* Unless otherwise noted, departments and agencies listed are units of California state government.

McCorkle, Ches te r , 23 Medi-Cal, 40-41 media, 20, 47 Meese, Edwin, 111, 34, 36, 43 . M i l l s , James R . , 43 M o r e t t i , Rober t , 43 Motor Vehic les , Department o f , 10-

16 , 3 1 automobi le r e g i s t r a t i o n , 19-22 budge ts , 24-25 d r i v e r s ' l i c e n s i n g , 17 , 27-30

O r r , Verne, M r s . , 11

Pasadena, C a l i f o r n i a , 1-2, 6-9 P o s t , A. Alan, 50, 51, 56 p r i s o n s , 34 P rocun i e r , Raymond K. , 34 program budge t t i ng , 55 p u b l i c employees, 17-18, 20, 30-33

Reagan, Nancy (Mrs. Ronald Reagan), 22

Reagan, Ronald, campaigns, 7-8 Reagan, Ronald, a s governor , 6 ,

9-13, 1 8 , 25-26, 30, 32, 35-39, 42-45

appointments , 37-38 Reagan, Ronald, a s p r e s i d e n t , 35,

4 3 r e a l e s t a t e , r e a l t o r s , 26 Reed, Thomas C . , 11-12 Republican p a r t y , Republ icans , 6-7

s e n a t e , s t a t e , 41-42

t a s k f o r c e s , 16-20 t a x reform, 43 t a x , wi thhold ing , 45-47 t a x a t i o n , t a x e s , 44-45 T ranspo r t a t i on , Department o f ,

14-15 t r a n s i t i o n , 1966-67, 9 , 32, 48 T u t t l e , Holmes, 7-10

Un ive r s i t y of C a l i f o r n i a , 23-24, 2 6

Unruh, Jesse M. , 52

Vandeg r i f t , Lucian, 34 v o l u n t a r y o r g a n i z a t i o n s , v o l u n t e e r s ,

2-4, 8

Weinberger, Caspar, 24, 35, 37-39, 42, 44, 5 3

w e l f a r e , 41 West, Kirk, 49 Wildausky, Aaron, 54

Regional Oral History Office University of California The Bancroft Library Berkeley, California

Government History Documentation Project Ronald Reagan'Gubernatorial Era

Ronald Reagan

ON BECOMING GOVERNOR

An Interview Conducted by Sarah Sharp

in 1979

Copyright @ 1986 by the Regents of the University of California

TABLE OF CONTENTS -- Ronald Reagan

INTERVIEW" HISTORY

THE 1966 GUBERNATORIAL CAMPATGN Working f o r Barry Goldwater i n 1964 Considering a Guberna tor ia l Campaign, 1965 The Pre-Primary Period: "The Eleventh Commandment,"

Doing t h e Homework The Post-Primary Period: Building Pa r ty S t rength ,

Spekaing on t h e I s sues The E lec t ion a s a Whole The Statewide Meeting of Black Republicans: L&I

Addi t iona l Pre-Primary Note

I1 THE TRANSITION Early S t a f f i n g and Dilemmas The Task Force Idea "Like a Board of Di rec tors" An "All-Consuming" Job Rela t ions wi th t h e L e g i s l a t u r e

TAPE: GUIDE

INDEX

INTERVIEW HISTORY -- Ronald Reagan

Ronald Reagan was governor of C a l i f o r n i a from 1966 through 1974 and, a s a l l of t he o t h e r i n t e rv i ews f o r t h i s o r a l h i s t o r y p r o j e c t have shown, he had a tremendous inf luence on t h e p o l i t i c s and po l i cy developments and t h e tone of t h e s e years. It was e s p e c i a l l y impor tan t , then, t h a t t h e s t a f f of t h e Regional Oral His tory Off ice i n v i t e M r . Reagan t o p a r t i c i p a t e i n t h i s p r o j e c t which has focused on t h e years of h i s governorship. The s t a f f had planned a lengthy s e r i e s of i n t e rv i ews t o be taped w i t h M r . Reagan, much a s had been conducted w i t h E a r l Warren and Edmund G. Brown, Sr. f o r e a r l i e r segments of t h e Government His tory Documentation P ro jec t , t o cover a 1 1 a s p e c t s of Reagan's own percept ions of h i s years a s t he chief a d m i n i s t r a t o r of t h e Golden S t a t e during t h e tu rbu len t l a t e 1960's and e a r l y 1970's. But, by t h e f a l l of 1980 wi th M r . Reagan's e l e c t i o n a s p re s iden t of t h e United S ta t e s , more urgent m a t t e r s of n a t i o n a l importance took precedence. Completing t h i s planned s e r i e s of in te rv iews has not been poss ib le .

What fo l lows i s t h e ed i t ed t r a n s c r i p t of two in t e rv i ews conducted w i t h M r . Reagan i n 1979 covering h i s 1966 gube rna to r i a l campaign and t h e t r a n s i t i o n i n t o t h e governorship i n e a r l y 1967. One of t h e th ings t h e o r a l h i s t o r y process does b e s t i s t o o f f e r an oppor tuni ty f o r t h e in te rv iewee t o reminisce in fo rma l ly about h i s own percept ions of dramat ic events which may have shaped h i s l i f e . I n M r . Reagan's case, he has shared h i s percept ions of t h e i n i t i a l and l a t e r arrangements f o r h i s f i r s t campaign t o become governor. There were those who "kept i n s i s t i ng , " a s he r e c a l l s , " tha t I o f f e red t h e only chance of v i c t o r y and t o b r ing t h e pa r ty back t o something v iab le ," and t h e d e f i n i t i o n of h i s own commitment t o be a candidate: "I h i t t h e sawdust t r a i l . "

M r . Reagan cont inues h i s r e c o l l e c t i o n s i n t h e second in t e rv i ew regarding t h e period a f t e r t h e 1966 v i c t o r y a t t h e p o l l s when the d i f f i c u l t work began of p u t t i n g toge the r a new and inexperienced gube rna to r i a l adminis t ra t ion . He comments on t h e ex igencies of f ac ing the budget d e f i c i t c r i s i s and t h e cha l lenge of c r e a t i n g an atmosphere i n t h e cab ine t meetings of open d i scuss ion and p a r t i c i p a t i o n , a s w e l l a s t h e t r iumphs of persuading l eg i s - l a t o r s t o h i s po in t of view. It was not always an easy time, e s p e c i a l l y i n t h e e a r l y months:

When I go t i n o f f i c e then, I must say those f i r s t days were very dreary...we were uncovering more and more of our problems. It j u s t seemed l i k e every day I came i n t o t h e o f f i c e , almost immediately t h e r e was someone s tanding i n f r o n t of my desk saying, "We've g o t a problem."

I got so t h e tempta t ion was almost i r r e s i s t i b l e t o look over my shoulder--.

The in terv iewer conducted much research i n p repa ra t ion f o r the in terv iew i n the Reagan gubernator ia l papers deposi ted a t Stanford Universi ty 's Hoover Ins t i tu t ion . Outl ines of t h e m a t e r i a l t o be covered i n each ses s ion were sen t t o M r . Reagan a s w e l l a s a chronology of t h e 1966 campaign and o the r m a t e r i a l s t o he lp r e f r e s h h i s memory. The f i r s t in terv iew, conducted on 19 January 1979, was he ld i n M r . Reagan's off i c e a t Deaver and Hannaford, Inc., i n t h e Westwood a r e a of Los Angeles. By t h e t ime t h e r e was a n opportunity f o r another in terv iew, M r . Reagan's campaign f o r the presidency had heated up considerably, and so t h e second taping session, recorded on 25 June, 1979, took p lace on a f l i g h t from San Francisco t o Santa Barbara i n a smal l , s leek , p r i v a t e jet.

Perhaps because of the c lose physical s e t t i n g f o r t h i s sess ion , t h i s in terv iew was more f r u i t f u l than the i n i t i a l meeting. M r . Reagan seemed very i n t e n t on answering t h e in terv iewer ' s quest ions; in terv iewee and in t e r - viewer exchanged l i s t s of names and in terv iew ques t ions ac ross t h e i r laps. This second sess ion was much more of a conversat ion between two fe l low t r a v e l e r s who were d iscuss ing h i s t o r i c a l t op ics of mutual in t e res t .

Once the t r a n s c r i p t s of these in terv iews had been edi ted l i g h t l y f o r c l a r i t y and cont inui ty , t he in terv iewer sen t them t o M r . Reagan, now i n t h e White House, i n Apr i l , 1982. The p res iden t re turned them i n December of t h a t year. While i t i s c l e a r t h a t members of the president 's s t a f f helped him i n t h e e d i t i n g process, t h e pres ident ' s own hand i s evident i n making a few wording changes and f i l l i n g i n c e r t a i n proper names and o t h e r information.

Sarah L. Sharp Interviewer-Editor

4 March 1986 Berkeley

I THE 1966 GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN

ate of I n t e r v i e w : January 19, 19791##

Working f o r Bar ry Goldwater i n 1964

Sharp: The f i r s t s e t of q u e s t i o n s w i l l d e a l w i t h t h e pre-1965 per iod. Then I have some about t h e p e r i o d between January and J u n e of 1965, f rom t h e r e through t h e campaign t o t h e g e n e r a l e l e c t i o n of 1966.

The f i r s t q u e s t i o n I 'd l i k e t o a s k i s about your r o l e i n Barry Goldwater 's campaign i n C a l i f o r n i a i n 1964.

Reagan: Well , I was o n l y a v e r y r e c e n t R e p u b l i c a n I had f i n a l l y , o v e r a long p e r i o d of t i m e , come t o t h e c o n c l u s i o n t h a t I had n o t changed a s much a s my p a r t y had changed, and t h e r e f o r e I .could no l o n g e r go a long w i t h t h e c o u r s e t h a t t h e Democrat ic l e a d e r s h i p had s e t . I g u e s s I was one of t h e v e r y e a r l y ones who--I met Barry Goldwater and began s a y i n g t h a t I thought h e shou ld be a cand ida te .

I must say when t h a t was f i r s t broached, and t h e f i r s t t i m e I e v e r s a i d i t t o him, h e had no such t h i n g i n mind a t a l l . I t h i n k he r e a l l y was, as has s i n c e been p o i n t e d o u t , a r e l u c t a n t c a n d i d a t e who l i t e r a l l y was d r a f t e d i n t o t h a t .

Here i n C a l i f o r n i a then , when h e was a c t u a l l y a c a n d i d a t e and t h e e l e c t i o n s s t a r t e d , I was asked t o be a co-chairman s t a t e w i d e . Now, I d i d n ' t know any th ing abou t t h e o r g a n i z a t i o n a l work o f campaigning o r a n y t h i n g e l s e . I had a lways b e l i e v e d t h a t you pay your way f o r how good l i f e has been t o you. So be ing a per fo rmer , and t h e r e f o r e having some a b i l i t y t o a t t r a c t a n aud ience , I had

##This symbol i n d i c a t e s t h a t a t a p e o r a segment of a t a p e h a s begun and ended. For a g u i d e t o t h e t a p e s s e e page 50.

Reagan: always campaigned f o r causes and people t h a t I be l ieved in. A s a m a t t e r of f a c t , t h e l a s t Democrat I campaigned f o r was.Harry Truman. You'd emcee r a l l i e s o r you'd go make speeches and s o fo r th .

I've always sa id t h a t i n Hollywood, i f you don't s i n g o r dance, you wind up a s a n a f te r -d inner speaker. So mainly my p a r t i n t h e campaign was o u t on t h e road h e r e i n C a l i f o r n i a campaigning f o r him, speaking. I had no idea--never kept track--of how many appearances o r speeches I made, bu t be l i eve me, I covered t h e s t a t e of C a l i f o r n i a from top t o bottom.

Sharp: Did you go t o t h e 1964 Republican n a t i o n a l convention, then?

Reagan: Yes. I was a n a l t e r n a t e delegate .

Sharp: And so you d id have some r o l e a c t u a l l y i n t h e convention, a s a n a l t e r n a t e o r you didn't--?

Reagan: No, t h e r e was never a time--oh, now and then i n s e s s ions , a s i s always customary, t h e de l ega te s sometimes f o r r o u t i n e m a t t e r s would come back and t e l l t h e i r a l t e r n a t e t h a t they could s i t down w i t h t h e r e g u l a r de lega t ion . They'd change p laces w i t h you.

Sharp: Did you have a n o f f i c i a l duty t h a t you were r e spons ib l e f o r ?

Reagan: No.

Sharp: What d id you l e a r n about t h e Republican pa r ty i n C a l i f o r n i a from working on M r . oldw water's campaign?

Reagan: Well, of course, t h a t was a t ime when nat ionwide, but even more so h e r e i n C a l i f o r n i a , t h e p a r t y was s h a t t e r e d and s p l i t r i g h t down t h e middle i n t h a t very b i t t e r pr imary t h a t was fought. It was such a d i v i s i v e thing. I know t h e r e were people who wondered whether o r no t t h e pa r ty could ever g e t t oge the r again. It d id two yea r s l a t e r .

I th ink t h a t what r e a l l y happened was--there had always been d i v i s i o n s and f a c t i o n s and so f o r t h , b u t I th ink t h a t s p l i t , and t h e d i s a s t e r t h a t fol lowed, was kind of a c a t h a r s i s , I th ink , on both s ides . When t h a t was over, they wanted no more of i t , t h e people wanted no more of it.

Sharp: Did you sense t h a t an e r a i n t h e Republican pa r ty i n C a l i f o r n i a was ending, and t h e r e would be some s o r t of a new wave?

Reagan: You didn ' t a t t h e time. You didn ' t r e a l l y know u n t i l t h e '66 campaign was coming up t h a t t h e r e was going t o be t h i s thing. Then when [Gay lo rd ] Parkinson voiced h i s "Eleventh Commandment ," and va r ious vo lun tee r groups l i k e t h e Federa t ion of Republican Women

Reagan: passed a r e s o l u t i o n t h a t they would n o t s u p p o r t a c a n d i d a t e i n t h e g e n e r a l e l e c t i o n who v i o l a t e d t h e "Eleventh Commandment*," i t t h e n became e v i d e n t t h a t t h e peop le wanted t o g e t back toge ther .

Cons ider ing a G u b e r n a t o r i a l Campainn. 1965

Sharp: I f you hadn' t been a c t i v e i n t h i s campaign i n 1964, do you t h i n k you cou ld have won i n 1966?

Reagan: I n e v e r would have been a c a n d i d a t e , because t h e r e was one t h i n g I have t o t e l l you. The f a r t h e s t t h i n g f rom my mind was runn ing f o r p o l i t i c a l o f f i c e . I l i k e d my l i f e . I thought i t was a n e x c i t i n g l i f e . I loved what I was doing, when i n '65--really a s a n outcome of t h a t e l e c t i o n and of t h e n a t i o n a l speech t h a t I made t h a t went on t h e ne tworks f o r Goldwater--people began coming t o me.

It wasn't a c a s e o f , you know, p a r t y l e a d e r s h i p o r any th ing , a s somet imes i t l o o k s , t h a t t h e y g e t t o g e t h e r i n a room. No. J u s t groups and peop le who knew me s t a r t e d coming, and w e r e j u s t v e r y i n s i s t e n t t h a t I should b e t h e g u b e r n a t o r i a l candidate . I d i s m i s s e d them l i g h t l y and q u i c k l y t o b e g i n w i t h , b u t they j u s t kep t coming back, because I had never--I d i d n ' t want t o do t h a t . It d i d n o t look a t t r a c t i v e t o me a t a l l . I k e p t saying, "Look, I'll do t h a t f o r Barry. I'll campaign f o r someone else."

Sharp: T e l l me about t h e C i t i z e n s f o r C o n s t r u c t i v e A c t i o a Some of t h e members of t h i s group w e r e Gard iner Johnson, B i l l Know l a n d , Wal te r Knot t , and Henry S a l v a t o r i . Does t h i s group mean any th ing t o you?

Reagan: No. I s n ' t t h i s funny. I r e a d t h i s i n y o u r n o t e s h e r e . I c a n ' t remember t h e t i t l e , Now, when was t h i s ?

Sharp: This i s an e a r l y group. I n o u r f i l e s , t h i s seems t o be perhaps t h e e a r l i e s t group t h a t suppor ted you,

Reagan: Ah. Then you know what t h a t was?

*Gaylord Park inson was chairman of t h e Republ ican S t a t e C e n t r a l Committee between 1964 and 1967. His "Eleventh Commandmentt' s a i d , "Thou s h a l t n o t speak ill of any Republican," and was i s s u e d b e f o r e t h e 1966 C a l i f o r n i a s t a t e primary. See a n i n t e r v i e w w i t h Dr. Pa rk inson i n I s s u e s and I n n o v a t i o n s i n t h e 1966 Republ ican G u b e r n a t o r i a l Campainn, Regional Ora l H i s t o r y O f f i c e , The Bancrof t L i b r a r y , U n i v e r s i t y of C a l i f o r n i a , Berkeley, 1980.

Sharp: The pre-"Friends of Reagan" per iod?

Reagan: Yes. What I th ink though, what t h a t group d id was f i n a l l y , when they kept coming-back and coming back, and I was aware of t h e d i s a s t r o u s s t a t e of t h e pa r ty and a l l , they k e p t i n s i s t i n g t h a t I o f f e r e d t h e on ly chance of v i c t o r y and t o b r ing t h e p a r t y back i n t o something v iab le .

It g o t t o t h e p l a c e whe re I s a i d no , and no, and no. And Nancy [Reagan] and I couldn ' t s l e e p any more. You know, we wondered, "Are you making t h e r i g h t dec i s ion? Are you l e t t i n g people down? What i f they ' re r i g h t ? "

So f i n a l l y Nancy and I agreed, and I went t o some of t he se people, inc lud ing Henry Sa lva tor i . I t h i n k [ t h a t ' s ] what t h a t group .was. I went t o them and sa id , "Look, i f you w i l l a r range it and make it p o s s i b l e s o t h a t I can go around t h i s state--." This was 1965.

Sharp: Very ea r ly .

Reagan: Yes. It was l i k e June, l i k e e a r l y summer.

Now, l e t me p o i n t o u t t h a t once you g e t on t h e mashed-potato c i r c u i t [ l aughs ] , you f i n d t h a t t h e r e a r e more t h ings t o speak t o than t h e r e a r e speakers. I n my e i g h t yea r s w i t h General ~ l e c t r i c , a p a r t of t h a t program had c a l l e d f o r me, about t e n o r twelve weeks o u t of t h e year , t o be o u t making persona l appearances. GE never t o l d me what t o do o r what t o say o r anything, so I always d id my own speeches.

I sa id , "If you make it p o s s i b l e f o r me t o spend t h e s e s i x months accept ing these speaking engagements a l l over t h e s t a t e , I'll make t h e d e c i s i o n whether you're r i g h t o r wrong. I th ink you're wrong." And I r e a l l y meant tha t . I s a i d , "I t h i n k t h a t you're wrong about me being t h e candidate. But I ' ll come back. By December 31, [19651, I'll t e l l you whether I should o r should n o t be." And t h e y ag reed .

Now, what t h i s e n t a i l e d was t h a t t h a t was my f i r s t i n t ro - duc t ion t o Spencer-Roberts, because they [ ~ r i e n d s of ~ e a g a n l employed them then t o s c r een and accept t h e invi ta t ions." These were no t n e c e s s a r i l y t o p o l i t i c a l groups. These were speeches of t h e k ind made be fo re chambers of commerce--whatever.

*See i n t e rv i ews w i t h B i l l Roberts and S tu Spencer i n I s s u e s and Innovat ions i n t h e 1966 Republ i c a n Guberna tor ia l Campaign, noted above.

- ...I

FRIENDS OF RONALD R E A d Southern California Finance Committee

1300 West Olympic Boulevard, Suite 300, Los Angeles, California 90015 / 383-3129

Souihm California Organizing Committee

A. C. (Cy) Rubel So. Calif. Finance Chairman Fred E. Rhodes. Treasurer Phil Berg M . E. Bourns James Cagney ' - David Chow Mn. Thurmond Clarke William Coberly Jr. Charles E. Cook Howard F. Cook Roy Crocker M. Philip Davis Walt Dimey Dr. Nolan Frizzelle Mn. Helen Grubbs Mn. Robert G. Haley E. S. H-kk Emmett Jones Walter Knott Dr. Roy Ledford J. Lafe Ludwig Mn. Tom May Donald McDaniel Emmett C. McCaughey Ed Milk H. A. Mosier C. C. Mosely John Newman T. C. Osterhaus William Park Cameron Paulden Bruce Reagan Henry Salvatori Randolph Scott Mrs. Norman Taurog Robert Taylor Holmes Tuttle Robert Volk Mrs. Will Ward Charles Westmoreland James Wood Albert M. Wright

M E M O 10/8/65

TO: S t e e r i n g C o m i t t e e and Finance Leadership, Fr iends of Ronald Reagan

FROM: B i l l Roberts

RE: Major s t r a t e g y meeting

It has now been approximately f i v e months s ince t h e i n i t i a l e x p l o r a t o r y e f f o r t s were undertaken on beha l f o f Ron. At the i nceb t i on o f s t h e exp lo ra to ry e f f o r t a l i m i t e d budget was prepared cove r ing the approximate eight-month pe r iod t o t h e end o f 1965, and c e r t a i n p r o j e c t s were undertaken based on what was then c u r r e n t s t r a t e g y needs.

Much has happened s ince t h a t time. I n many areas the e f f o r t has gone way beyond the fondest hopes o f a l l those concerned, p lus o the r f a c t o r s have entered i n t o the p o l i t i c a l t h ink ing . Wi th t h i s i n mind, Ron has asked t h a t we pause now and review the b idd ing i n o rde r t o determine whether those p r o j e c t s now underway are s t i 1 1 germain, o r whether new p r o j e c t s should be i ns t i t u ted , - i n o the r words, reassessment o f t he s i t u a t i o n .

Therefore, a major meeting has been c a l l e d f o r Sunday, October 17 a t 10:30 A.M. a t Ron's home, 1669 San Onofre, P a c i f i c Pal isades. Your attendance would be deeply apprec ia ted by Ron. Please communicate w i t h Kathy Davis, #383-3129, as t o whether o r no t you can make it.

Among the sub jec ts t o be discussed are: 1. The e x i s t i n g budget and t h e p r o j e c t s which .it encompasses. Should i t be rev ised o r stand as i s ? 2. Ron's schedule through the balance o f 1965. 3. Should a major survey be undertaken now o r i n t h e near f u t u r e ? 4. Timing on a p o s s i b l e major t e l e v i s i o n appearance. 5. Should a major attempt be undertaken t o encourage e l i m i n a t i o n o f p o s s i b l e pr imary opponents2 6. Should we beg in the s t r u c t u r i n g and f o r m a l i z a t i o n o f a m a j o r campaign cornnit tee throughout t he s t a t e ?

N a t u r a l l y , you should b r i n g up o t h e r items which may be o f concern t o you. Ron i s anxious t h a t a complete and thorough a i r i n g be g iven t o the e n t i r e e f f o r t , not on l y as t o where we stand today, but where we are going through t h e next several months, perhaps through t h e pr imary i n June. Th is w i l l be a most s i g n i f i c a n t meeting.

Reagan: The speech I made was the same speech t h a t I would make f o r any i n v i t a t i o n ou t of t he s t a t e because I s t i l l had i n v i t a t i o n s t o speak i n o the r p a r t s of the country, on my f e e l i n g s about government i n t e r f e r e n c e and harassment of t h e free-marke t system and s o f o r t h , where we were going i f government continued increas ing i t s power. Some of the t i t l e s of t h e speeches t h a t I gave--they were a l l i n t h a t genera l theme--were "~nc roach ing Control: Business, Bal lo ts , and Bureaus," and th ings of t h a t kind. So t h i s i s what I d id f o r t h a t s i x months. They [ s p e n c e r - ~ o b e r t s ] made t h a t possible .

Before December 31, I t o l d Nancy t h a t they [Fr iends f o r Reagan] were r i g h t , beca;se I would go ou t , and af te rwards people would come up t o me. They'd say, "Oh, you ought t o run f o r governor--" and I would say, "Oh, no," and I'd name people prominent i n t h e p a r t y and say, "Why not so-and-so o r so-and-so, and we ' l l a l l go campaign f o r them?" They j u s t dismissed t h a t and came r i g h t back t o me. So I t o l d h e r , "They're r i g h t . I t h i n k I do o f f e r t h e b e s t chance of winning. Now, do we want t o do t h i s ? "

About a month be fo re December 31, I knew t h a t I was going t o s a y yes.

Sharp: What went on i n s i d e you during t h i s period?

Reagan: Oh, a l l s o r t s of things, because i t meant a whole change i n our l i v e s , change i n l i f e s t y l e and everything else. For one thing, t h e economics of it. Being i n pub l i c l i f e i s not q u i t e a s f i n a n c i a l l y rewarding a s show business. [ laughs] We didn ' t know what we were going t o do. We had a ranch. As a ma t t e r of f a c t , we had t o s e l l i n order t o do th i s . That broke my hea r t , because f o r a l l those l a s t e i g h t or t e n years , I had had t e l e v i s i o n worked down t o a n average of about one day a week, and I could spend fou r o r f i v e days a week a t t he ranch. My r o u t i n e was j u s t g e t up--the ranch was only a t h i r t y - f i v e minute d r i v e from our home--go ou t t h e r e f o r the day, back i n the evening. I loved every minute of that .

But I have t o confess something t o you also. I hones t ly be l i eve the whole emphasis had been so on winning t h a t when I s a i d yes, I had not a c t u a l l y thought beyond November.

Sharp: You mean November of '66?

Reagan: Yes. It wasn't u n t i l a f t e r I had agreed,' and I s a i d [ laughs] , "Wait a minute. I 'm t a l k i n g about t he next s e v e r a l years."

When I was a Democrat, I was out speaking on t h i s theme t h a t I bel ieved and s t i l l be l i eve today, t h a t government has gone beyond t h e consent of t he governed. So suddenly I r e a l i z e d t h a t now I was

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

going t o be i n a p o s i t i o n t o d e a l w i t h i t in s t ead of j u s t t a l k about it. My speeches had been urging people t o do something about t h i s . Well, now--. [ laughs]

You were i n t h e hot seat.

I was going t o do something about it.

Can you t e l l me about a meeting t h a t you had w i t h M r . and Mrs. Holmes T u t t l e a t some p o i n t i n 1965, i n which they convinced you t o run f o r governor?

They came t o t h e house s e v e r a l times. I th ink Holmes was t h e most p e r s i s t e n t , h e and h i s wife.

Why? Why was he so p e r s i s t e n t ?

Well, he has always been one of t hose ind iv idua l s who con t r ibu te s t o what he be l i eves i n , works f o r what he be l i eves in. He had never sought anyth ing f o r h imse l f , of course, bu t you could always count on him t o support t h e pa r ty and candidates. He j u s t was f i r m l y convinced t h a t I could do tha t .

And these people who supported you e a r l y on, l i k e Holmes T u t t l e and Henry Salvatori--they supported you f o r i deo log ica l reasons?

Yes.

Because they thought t h a t you would be t h e governor, t h e kind of governor t h a t they wanted? The speeches t h a t you made and t h e ideas t h a t you put f o r t h were t h e i r kinds of ideas?

Yes. A s a m a t t e r of f a c t , t h e n igh t t h a t I was sworn i n , a t midnight--that i s a whole o t h e r s to ry , a s t o why I was sworn i n a t midnight--we went back t o t h e governor's o f f ice . Holmes T u t t l e t o l d me t o s i t down i n t h e governor's c h a i r t he re , a t t h e desk, and I did. Then he sa id , "I don't know whether anyone has ever been a b l e t o say t h i s before t o a governor of Cal i fornia . But now you a r e s i t t i n g i n t h a t chair. And you don't owe any of u s anything."

He sa id , " A l l we wanted was good government. We be l ieved t h a t you could do tha t . You have no commitment, no promise t o keep t o anyone a t a l l . You j u s t do what you be l i eve should be done."

That ' s a very hard assignment.

Yes.

Would i t have been e a s i e r i f he had sa id , "Okay, you're beholden t o us"?

Reagan: No, it wouldn't. I remember when General E l e c t r i c f i r s t s e n t me o u t on t h e road, and t h e n t o l d me t h a t they had made me a v a i l a b l e t o speak f o r t h e f i r s t t ime , a t a chamber of commerce o r something. I s tood t h e r e k ind of w a i t i n g t o s e e i f they were going t o t r y t o hand me a canned speech. I knew t h e r e was going t o be a c o n f r o n t a t i o n i f they d id , because I wouldn't make somebody e l s e ' s speech.

You see b e f o r e General E l e c t r i c , i n t h e p i c t u r e bus ine s s , a s I say, I d idn ' t s i n g o r dance. There was a phone number f o r t h e movie i ndus t ry , you know, t h e major s t u d i o s and s o f o r t h , s o t h a t u n l i k e today, t h e r e were people concerned about t h e indus t ry . There were a lways occa s ions i n t h o s e days when they needed a spokesman f o r t h e indust'ry. There were two o r t h r e e o r f o u r of u s t h a t t h e i n d u s t r y would c a l l up--Bob Montgomery, George Murphy, myself--to go t o a convent ion o r something and r e p r e s e n t t h e i n d u s t r y and speak. So from t h a t I had been doing t h i s , and I guess way b e f o r e t h a t , when I was a s p o r t s announcer. I d i scovered i n t h o s e Depress ion days t h a t come t h e end of t h e f o o t b a l l season t h e r e were t h i n g s c a l l e d f o o t b a l l banquets. You could add a l i t t l e t o your income by being t h e speaker a t those. So f rom t h e f i r s t I had a lways f aced t h e problem of what d id 1 want t o say. General E l e c t r i c never t o l d m e what t o say, and I made my own, s o t h e same t h i n g would have been t r u e there.

No. I could n o t have done t h a t , i f I thought t h a t I had been pu t t h e r e a s a f r o n t f o r o t h e r people, I can say t h i s , t o t h i s day. I n a l l t h o s e e i g h t yea r s , no one eve r came t o me on t h e b a s i s of campaign h e l p o r c o n t r i b u t i o n s and asked me t o do anything.

Sharp: . That 's p r e t t y amazing, That 's n o t what you would th ink ,

Reagan: It doesn ' t f i t t h e popula r p i c tu r e . I wonder, though, i f it i s n ' t much more common than people bel ieve. I ' m i n c l i n e d t o t h i n k t h a t it is. The American people ou t t h e r e , t hey ' r e good people. From t h e f e l l o w who c o n t r i b u t e s $1 t o t h e f e l l o w who c o n t r i b u t e s a $1,000, r e a l l y , they usual ly--I know t h e r e a r e o t h e r k inds i n o t h e r areas--are doing i t because of t h e i r own c o n v i c t i o n and t h e i r own f e e l i n g t h a t t h i s i s t h e person who w i l l do what they want i n government,

The Pre-Primary Per iod : "The Eleven th Commandment." Doing t h e Homework

Sharp: Let ' s t a l k now about t h e a c t u a l pre-primary pe r i od t h a t s t a r t s , say, i n January and goes through June of '66. What can you t e l l m e

Sharp: about your r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h t h e o f f i c i a l s of t h e Republican p a r t y i n t h i s e a r l y pre-primary period?*

Reagan: Well, it 's kind of hard t o expla in . I had t h e suppor t of them, of course. Well, no, no t i n t h e pre-primary you don't. Wait a .

minute, I was g e t t i n g ahead of myself , g e t t i n g t o t h e e l e c t i o n in s t ead of t h e pr imary e lec t ion . Under t h e law i n C a l i f o r n i a , da t i ng back t o Hiram Johnson, t h e p o l i t i c a l p a r t i e s cannot pre- primary endorse. So you have no con tac t o r suppor t o r he lp o r anything i n t h a t regard,

A l l t h e p a r t y d i d was t o keep hammering t h a t "Eleventh Commandment," Then t h e p a r t y would try t o s t and back and t r y t o un i fy t h e p a r t y and go forward when t h e e l e c t i o n was held. So you d idn ' t have anyth ing then. You formed your own campaign organiza- t i o n throughout t h e s t a t e . And t h a t ' s what we did, I h i t t h e sawdust t r a i l .

Sharp: Did you f i n d you r se l f an i n s i d e r o r an o u t s i d e r a s f a r a s t h e Republican pa r ty was concerned, i n t h i s e a r l y January through March 1965 pe r iod?

Reagan: Oh, no t an o u t s i d e r , because from t h e t i m e I s t a r t e d campaigning f o r Republicans, which I d id w h i l e I was s t i l l a Democrat, j u s t once i n t h e 1960 e l e c t i o n , I campaigned and d id every th ing I could, made a l l t h e appearances I could, Then i n '62--again, bu t t h i s t ime I re - r eg i s t e r ed Republican. So I had on ly been a Republican two yea r s when I became an a l t e r n a t e de l ega t e a t t h a t '64 convention.

But no, I had a good r appor t w i t h t h e party. They f e l t t h a t I had been a s t a l w a r t and had always been a v a i l a b l e f o r fund- ra i se r appearances of t h a t kind, s o I had no problem w i t h t h e par ty .

Sharp: Who were some of t h e people i n s i d e t h e p a r t y h i e r a r chy who were t r y i n g t o he lp you i n t h e pre-primary pe r iod?

Reagan: Well, i f you say h ie ra rchy , i f you're speaking o f f i c i a l p a r t y organiza t ions , they couldn't, None of them did. That's hands-of f and a n e u t r a l policy. So your support i s among people who don't hold p a r t y p o s i t i o n s , bu t they'd always been a s soc i a t ed w i t h t h e pa r ty a s suppor t e r s of t he p a r t y and so f o r t h ,

*This i n t e rv i ewer s e n t Reagan a chronology of t h e 1966 gube rna to r i a l campaign t o he lp him r e c a l l d e t a i l s of t h i s period. It i s included on t h e fol lowing pages.

A CRRONOLOGY OF RONALD REAGAN'S GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN OF 1966 EXTRACTED FROM THE SAN FRANCISCO CRROPTICLE

DATE ARTICLE SUMMARY

1-4-66 RR announced on t h i s d a t e t h a t h e was runn ing f o r governor . Chron s a i d h e r e p r e s e n t e d " t h e r ight-wing c o n s e r v a t i v e s of t h e Republ ican par ty . "

Chron heaped upon RR h i s p a s t as an a c t o r .

RR used i s s u e of tax re form as a major t o o l a g a i n s t P a t Brown a t t h i s p o i n t i n t h e campaign. R R s a i d a combinat ion of s a l e s and income t a x e s were needed, as w e l l as tax i n c e n t i v e s f o r i n d u s t r y i n C a l i f o r n i a . , RR walked o u t o f meet ing - w i t h b l a c k Re- p u b l i c a n s . Chron a r t i c l e d i d n o t s a y why.

Uni ted Republ icans of C a l i f o r n i a (UROC) announced s u p p o r t o f RR.

RR r e c e i v e d endorsement by C a l i f o r n i a Republ ican Assembly(CF?) a f t e r a meet ing between t h e CRA and RR i n which RR was qu izzed on h i s s t a n d on i s s u e s such as " r i g h t t o work", income t a x , members of t h e John B i r c h S o c i e t y as CRA o f f i c i a l s .

RR accep ted f i n d i n g s of t h e C a l i f o m l a s t a t e s e n a t e S u b c o n n i t t e e on E n - b e r i c a n A c t i v i t i e s , and s a i d t h a t UC Berkeley had been degraded as a u n i v e r s i t y by t h e ac t io f i s of t h e r a d i c a l s .

Chron announced d r a m t i c growth i n p e r c e n t a g e of p e o p l e who p r e f e r r e d RR f o r governor , e s p e c i a l l y i n n o r t h e r n C a l i f o r n i a . RR had v e r y e a r l y l e d b o t h George C h r i s t o p h e r and Laughl in Waters i n s o u t h e r n C a l i f o r n i a .

Chron l i n k e d RR w i t h d e f e a t e d p r e s i d e n t i a l c a n d i d a t e Bar ry Goldwater i n many a r t i c l e s l i k e t h i s one.

RR a t t a c k e d t o o much . g o v e r m e n t s p e n d l ~ g and w a s t e i n Sacramento, condemned t o o much un- enployment i n t h e s t z t e , opposed r e p e a l of , f e d e r a l income t a x asked f o r i n L i b e r t y Amenbent , suppor ted e l i n i n a t i ~ n of heavy p r o p e r t y t a x e s , and s a i d t h e r e w a s t o o nuch w e l f a r e .

ARTICLE SUNMARY DATE

6-8-66 Af t e r RR won t h e primary, Chron c a l l e d i t a se tback f o r t h e moderate f a c t i o n of t h e GOP i n Ca l i fo rn i a .

****In l i g h t of t h i s a r t i c l e and many o t h e r s l i k e it, t h e Chron has t o be seen a s a newspaper t h a t would q u i t e n a t u r a l l y support t h e c i t y ' s p a s t mayor, George Chris topher .

Chron announced a i nc reas ing "beat Reagan" engineered by t h e AFL-CIO i n Ca l i fo rn i a . AFL-CIO chief Thomas L. P i t t s was e s p e c i a l l y ac t ive .

P re s iden t Eisenhower announced h i s support f o r RX (only a f t e r t h e primary was cve r ) .

Chron repor ted on RR campaign t a c t i c t o con- c e n t r a t e on a s p e c i f i c problem f o r s e v e r a l days of a campaign t o u r , t r a v e l i n t o t h e a r e a s where t h e i s s u e was acu te , choose a "Commission" t o recommend act ion,-and f i n a l l y adopt t he r e s u l t of t h e Commission's wcrk a s p a r t of t he RR campaign platform. Chron s a i d t h a t t h i s p lan was meant t o combat Democratic charge t h a t RR d id not know enough about t he a f f a i r s of t h e s t a t e t o be governor.

P e r i o d i c a l l y RR a t tended meetings of t h e GOP t o l i s t e n t o d i scuss ions of how money would be r a i s e d f o r t h e campaign.

A 28-page book was developed by the Democrats which charged RX wi th being a " f ron t man" f o r e x t r e m k t s i n Ca l i fo rn i a . It was being d i s - t r i b u t e d by Robert L. Coate.

Chron repor ted t h a t D r . Stanley P l ~ g of UCLA and D r . Kenneth Holden of San Fernando Valley S t a t e College, both of t h e Behavioral S c i e n t i s t Corporation of Los Angeles aided*RR i n f i n d i n g out what t h e i s s u e s should be f o r 1966. Chron s a i d t h i s i s why RX supported r epea l of t h e Rumford Act.

RR s a i d he would name former C I A ch ief John A. McCone t o head a " f a i r and open" inves t iga- t i o n of t h e Un ive r s i t y of Ca l i fo rn i a i f e l e c t e d governor. Chron s a i d i t was R R f s opinion t h a t P a t Brown had t r i e d t o sweep under t h e rug t h e r e a l problems of t h e Univers i ty of Ca l i fo rn i a .

Chron repor ted t h a t RR has moved t o t he c e n t e r , causing concern both among Democrats and conserva t ive Republicans.

ARTICLE SUMMARY DATE

9-29-66 Chron announced RR1s development of Job Oppor tun i t ies Board program of e s t a b l i s h i n g

t r a i n i n g c e n t e r s i nvo lv ing government and p r i v a t e i ndus t ry .

Chron r epo r t ed Gaylord Park inson ' s w r i t i n g of t h e "11th Commandment" i n o r d e r t o a i d RR's e l e c t i o n a s governor. Chron defended Park inson ' s accep t ing money f o r r o l e a s s t a t e chairman.

Chron reviewed some of RR ' s campaign i s s u e s : 1 ) u n r e s t a t Berkeley (UC should expe l them); 2) t oo much crime i n C a l i f o r n i a ( s t a t e should have

more law en fo rce r s and wi th b e t t e r t r a i n i n g ) ; 3 ) t axes ( t a x i n c r e a s e unavoidable , b u t t a x system

should be overhauled; 4) Rumford Act . should be r epea l ed because t h e

people of C a l i f o r n i a showed t h a t they opposed it i n P r o p o s i t i o n 14 . Rumford A c t invaded "one of our most b a s i c and cher i shed r i g h t s - he ld by a l l our c i t i z e n s - t h e r i g h t t o d i s - pose of our p rope r ty towhom we s e e f i t a s we s e e f i t . " ( s a i d by RR i n speech t o C a l i f o r n i a Real E s t a t e Assoc ia t ion i n SF, 10-7-66);

5) t oo much unemployment (should have more job t r a i n i n g ) ;

6) should have c o s t of l i v i n g pension i n c r e a s e f o r r e t i r e d school t e ache r s .

-

Chron wrote about key men i n RR campaign: Henry S a l v a t o r i , considered RR1s "b ra in t ru s tl ' ; Holmes T u t t l e , a sou the rn C a l i f o r n i a au to d i s t r i b u t o r ; Caspar Weinberger; Rober t T . Monagan; B i l l Roberts ; Rev. W.S. McBirnie; P h i l i p B a t t a g l i a ; P a t r i c k J. Frawley, Los Angeles head of Technicolor Corp. and Schick Razor Corp. was "a money man b u t n o t an advice man"; Gaylord Parkinson; Cy Rubel; and Walter Knott .

A t a pos t - e l ec t i on b r e a k f a s t , RR announced t h a t t h e "Number One p r i o r i t y " f o r h i s admin i s t r a t i on would be economy.

Sharp: According t o B i l l Roberts , he had agreed t o manage the campaign p r e t t y e a r l y , i n A p r i l of '65. I was wondering e x a c t l y what B i l l Roberts and Spencer-Roberts, t h e organiza t ion , d i d f o r t h e campaign. What was t h e i r p l an of a c t i o n f o r t h e pre-primary per iod?

Reagan: Well, i n t h a t s i x months' per iod u n t i l t h e end of '65, t h e i r s was s imply the , you might say, accept ing of a l l t h e i n v i t a t i o n s t o speak and so f o r t h , and even c r e a t i n g i n v i t a t i o n s . I n o t h e r words, l e t t i n g o rgan iza t ions know t h a t I was ava i l ab l e . The idea was f o r me t o cover a s much ground i n C a l i f o r n i a a s I could on t h e b a s i s t h a t I was going t o make t h e d e c i s i o n [on] t h e outcome of a l l those speeches.

It was a very funny thing. I t o l d you t h a t I made my r e g u l a r speech t h a t I would have done i f t h e chamber of commerce had asked me t o speak, which d e a l t w i t h n a t i o n a l a f f a i r s and t h e whole phi lo- sophy of government i n t e r f e r e n c e and s o for th . Because t h e r e was t a l k t h a t I was being considered a s a p o t e n t i a l candidate , t h e r e used t o be columns and e d i t o r i a l s t o t he e f f e c t t h a t , w e l l , i f Ronald Reagan doesn't s t a r t t a l k i n g about s t a t e a f f a i r s , s t a t e problems, he's no t going t o have any votes--he'd b e t t e r g e t o f f t he se n a t i o n a l , i n t e r n a t i o n a l problems.

Of course, t h a t wasn't t h e point. The p o i n t was t h a t I was s imply cont inu ing t o express my o v e r a l l philosophy and judge by t h e reac t ion . So they d idn ' t i n t e r f e r e o r anyth ing w i t h tha t . They [ s p e n c e r - ~ o b e r t s l never t r i ed . They knew what t h e i r job was. They had been h i red , s o they de l ive red me t o t he p l aces where I was t o speak, and they t o l d me what t h e schedule was. Sometimes I grumbled because I wasn't g e t t i n g t o t h e ranch four days a week anymore. [ laughs]

Sharp: Drs. S tan ley Plog and Kenneth Holden from a f i r m c a l l e d BASIC0 h e r e i n Los Angeles were h i r e d by B i l l Roberts i n February 1966. They were a p o l i t i c a l r e sea rch firm. I 've been looking a t your papers a t t h e Hoover I n s t i t u t i o n and t h e r e a r e q u i t e a number of volumes, sma l l b l ack volumes, i n which t h e r e were a l l k inds of ana lyses of t h e i s s u e s of the day f o r Cal i forn ia . Apparently they had done a l o t of r e sea rch i n o rde r t o he lp you g e t ready t o run and t o be governor. They had done in fo rma t iona l s t u d i e s , had done ana lyses of t h e i s sues , and then they had made recommendations f o r po l i cy f o r you,

These a r e p r e t t y s o p h i s t i c a t e d volumes, and I was very impressed by them, I was wondering i f you used these volumes and i f they helped you t o c r e a t e your po l i cy f o r t h e campaign.

Reagan: I can't remember an awful l o t about it, But i t was t r u e what t h e co lumnis t s were saying, t h a t I had s o devoted t h e r e s e a r c h t h a t I had done f o r my own speeches f o r yea r s t o t he o v e r a l l philosophy, n a t i o n a l and i n t e r n a t i o n a l po l icy , t h a t I d id no t know anything

Reagan: about t h e o rgan iza t ion of s t a t e government, t h e problems and what would be t h e i s s u e s i n s t a t e government--other than t h a t I was aware j u s t from being an a c t i v i s t t h e way t h a t t h ings weren't going w e l l i n t h e s t a t e of C a l i f o r n i a , t h e c o s t s r i s i n g , t h e government growing i n s i z e , and so for th . I had j u s t a c i t i z e n ' s resen tment of c e r t a i n t h ings t h a t had happened. But no, t h a t was done.

I s tud i ed s t a t e problems and I d i d my homework.

Sharp: For i n s t ance , they s e n t you memos p e r i o d i c a l l y through t h e campaign. I saw one t h a t was da ted A p r i l 4, 1966. It was on P ropos i t i on 14, t h e a n t i - f a i r housing p r o p o s i t i o a * At t h i s po in t , t h e C a l i f o r n i a Supreme Court was cons ider ing whether o r n o t i t was c o n s t i t u t i o n a l . One of t h e memos from Dr. S tan ley Plog had suggested t o you a po l i cy , i f P ropos i t i on 14 was dec la red cons t i - t u t i o n a l , and i f it was dec l a r ed uncons t i t u t i ona l . . It was j u s t r i g h t t h e r e on t h e memo, e s s e n t i a l l y what you should say. There

, a r e a l o t of t he se memos t h a t were s e n t t o you pe r iod i ca l ly . Do you remember ever even see ing them? Did you u s e them?

Reagan: I have t o t e l l you I have very l i t t l e memory of that. Usual ly I accepted anyth ing t h a t came way t o t h e campaign a s a recommendation by someone, bu t i f it didn ' t meet w i t h what I thought was my own b e l i e f [chuckles ] , I d idn ' t a ccep t it.

Sharp: When we do r e sea rch i n t h e papers, it makes your campaign o r anybody's campaign look one way. And y e t we have t o come t o you and a sk you, i s t h a t t h e r e a l i t y ? Is t h a t t h e t r u t h of t h e campaign, d i d t hose papers r e a l l y r e p r e s e n t what you thought was your campaign? So what you're t e l l i n g us i s s o r t of a r e a p p r a i s a l of what t h a t campaign was r e a l l y a l l about.

As chairman of t h e southern C a l i f o r n i a f i nance committee of Fr iends f o r Reagan, A. C. ( ~ y ) Rubel seems t o have been t h e most impor tan t f i n a n c e person i n te rms of campaign organizat ion. Is t h i s t r u e ?

Reagan: He was always a very prominent f i g u r e i n t h e p a r t y a c t i v i t i e s t h a t way. He was a ve ry ded ica t ed man. Everyone who knew him admired him g rea t ly . I remember, f o r example, h i s express ing a p re jud i ce t o me once t h a t h e s a i d was j u s t ingra ined w i t h him. He couldn ' t he lp it, he'd been r a i s e d t h a t way. But h e s a i d t o me, "I w i l l never embarrass you. I w i l l never i n f l i c t t h a t prejudice--which I know i s a prejudice--on you o r anyone e l s e , o r l e t it mot iva te me."

*Proposi t ion 14 s t r u c k ou t t h e Rumford f a i r housing a c t among othef p rov i s ions and passed a s a b a l l o t ' m e a s u r e i n 1964. Both ~ a l i f o r n l a and U.S. Supreme Courts dec l a r ed i t u n c o n s t i t u t i o n a l by 1967.

Reagan: I thought [ t h i s ] was r e a l l y a p r e t t y honest and s ince re person, who was w i l l i n g to , i n s t ead of j u s t i f y a f e e l i n g h e had, say, "I j u s t f e e l t h a t way and can't h e l p it. But don't worry. It w i l l never i n f l u e n c e me,"

Sharp: hat's important , because you always wonder about t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p between t h e people who work f o r an ind iv idua l i n a campaign and how much inf luence they a r e supposed t o have o r not supposed t o have on a candidate, Te l l i ng me t h a t l i t t l e b i t of in format ion i s impor tan t because it r evea l s p a r t of t h a t r e l a t i onsh ip ,

Reagan: Let me t e l l you j u s t one l i t t l e i nc iden t , and I won't use any names. But I th ink [ i t i s ] i n f a i r n e s s t o t h e kind of people t h a t a r e u s u a l l y cyn ica l ly viewed a s f a t c a t s , [ t h a t ] t h e r e f o r e they've got u l t e r i o r motives and so fo r th , A man gave a s i z a b l e contribu- t i o n t o t h e campaign. One n i g h t a t a r ecep t ion , he d id no more than t o say t o me t h a t he had a problem, and i f t h i s [campaign] worked and [ I ] became governor, h e would l i k e t o come and s e e me about t h a t problem. Well it sounded t o me l i k e why shouldn't anybody be a b l e t o come and s e e me?

I happened t o mention t h i s t o one of those e a r l y and s o l i d backers t h a t he'd s a i d t h i s t o me, and [ t h a t ] he'd gone no f a r t h e r than that . He hadn't asked f o r any favor o r anything else .

I found o u t l a t e r , much l a t e r , t h a t they gave him h i s money back and t o l d him never t o do anything l i k e t h a t again. So I r e a l l y never had anyone p re s su re me. Like these r e sea rche r s , they might present th ings and t h e i r a n a l y s i s of a s i t u a t i o n , bu t no one ever put t h e p re s su re on me and sa id , "This i s t h e way we want you t o be l ieve . "

Sharp: I wanted t o a sk you more about t h a t "Eleventh Commandment" t h a t was e s s e n t i a l l y w r i t t e n by Gaylord Parkinson. He wrote i t a s chairman of t h e Republican s t a t e c e n t r a l committee. What d id you th ink of t h a t ?

Reagan: I thought i t was t h e g r e a t e s t th ing I 'd ever heard. Having p a r t i - c ipa ted i n and seen t h e b i t t e r n e s s of t h e '64 primary i n which one f a c t i o n i n t h e Republican pa r ty l i t e r a l l y gave t h e Democrats a l l they needed f o r campaign ammunition, I myself bel ieved t h a t no Republican i n a primary had a r i g h t t o ever say anything about a Republican opponent, t h a t i f t h a t opponent becomes t h e nominee, t h e Democrats can then use those words a g a i n s t him.

I was one of t he s t r o n g e s t advocates of i t , and I kept t h e "Eleventh Commandment." Most of t h e o t h e r candidates did, too, i n t h e primary. Here o r t h e r e t h e r e might be a l i t t l e l apse o r something, but f o r t h e most p a r t it was a campaign i n which we campaigned a g a i n s t t h e Democratic oppos i t ion , a l l of us.

Sharp: Was t h e r e a f e e l i n g w i t h i n t h e Republ ican p a r t y , e s p e c i a l l y w i t h i n , say, t h e last month b e f o r e t h e p r imary , t h a t t h e Republ ican p a r t y had a r e a l b a t t l e o n i t s hands i n t e r m s of t h e f u t u r e of C a l i f o r n i a , and no more t h i r d t e r m f o r P a t Brown?

Reagan: Oh, I t h i n k t h i s i s what h e l p e d u n i f y t h e p a r t y v e r y much, t h a t a l l of u s b e l i e v e d t h a t t h e s t a t e economica l ly was i n a shambles, and t h a t t h e r e had t o b e a change. P a r t of t h e "El,eventh'Commandment," you know, was t h a t e v e r y one, every c a n d i d a t e pledged h i s s u p p o r t t o t h e winner of t h e primary.

Sharp: I n A p r i l of '66 i n San J o s e , you had a mee t ing w i t h some o f f i c i a l s of t h e C a l i f o r n i a Republ ican Assembly i n which t h e y qu izzed you o n some of t h e i s s u e s and how you s t o o d o n them, l i k e t h e Rumford Act, l i k e t h e John B i r c h S o c i e t y , l i k e t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f C a l i f o r n i a . What was t h e purpose of t h i s mee t ing? Do you remember?

Reagan: Wel l , you s e e , w i t h C a l i f o r n i a ' s l a w i t i s i m p o s s i b l e f o r a p a r t y t o pre-pr imary endorse ( t h e e l i m i n a t i o n of t h e smoke-f i l l e d rooms), t h e r e came & t o being i n b o t h p a r t i e s v o l u n t e e r o r g a n i z a t i o n s where Republ icans who wanted t o p a r t i c i p a t e i n p r i m a r i e s and e n d o r s e cou ld t h e n become members of t h o s e v o l u n t e e r groups--United Republ icans of C a l i f o r n i a , C a l i f o r n i a Republ ican Assembly i n o u r p a r t y , and t h e r e was t h e CDC [ C a l i f o r n i a Democrat ic Counc i l ] over i n t h e Democrat ic pa r ty . So t h e y would h o l d conven t ions t o t h e n e n d o r s e i n t h e primary. To do t h a t , t h e y would meet w i t h t h e c a n d i d a t e s and g r i l l t h e c a n d i d a t e s , s o t h e y cou ld make t h e i r recommendations t o t h e membership.

Sharp: Was t h i s a mean ingfu l mee t ing t o you? What d i d it t e l l you abou t t h i s p a r t of t h e Republ ican p a r t y ?

Reagan: Well , you wanted t h e endorsements o f t h o s e groups , because t h i s would b e ev idence of bod ies , l a r g e b o d i e s of t h e Republ ican p a r t y t h a t were announcing t h e i r s u p p o r t of you, t h e i r approval. So a l l of t h e c a n d i d a t e s sought t h e s e endorsements.

Sharp: Who w e r e t h e key members o f your campaign i n t h e pre-pr imary p e r i o d ?

Reagan: Wel l , t h e r e was Holmes [ ~ u t t l e ] and Henry S a l v a t o r i , o f course , who were i n o n t h e v e r y beg inn ing of t r y i n g t o pe rsuade me t o do it. Then, you know, you began t o p u t a s t a f f t o g e t h e r l i k e Lyn Nofz iger who came o u t f rom Washington and i s s t i l l around. I d i d n ' t have s o much t o do w i t h t h a t as t h a t was one o f t h e f u n c t i o n s o f Spencer- Roberts. Peop le l i k e W a l t e r Knott , p e o p l e t h a t I had p r e v i o u s l y done t h i n g s f o r , l i k e spoken a t m e e t i n g s and d i n n e r s and fund r a i s e r s , and suppor ted c a n d i d a t e s , t h o s e people.

Sharp: Do you t h i n k t h a t Spencer-Roberts and t h e work t h a t they d i d was e s s e n t i a l t o your winn ing t h e p r imary?

Reagan: Oh, yes. That was t h e p a r t of' p o l i t i c s t h a t , a s I say, when I was even co-chairman f o r Goldwater, I on ly saw dimly. I r e a l i z e d t h a t i t was t h e r e and I d idn ' t know anyth ing about it. That was t h e knowledge of t h e people. I n o t h e r words, someone could come t o you, a vo lun t ee r i n some p a r t i c u l a r d i s t r i c t , and you would have a way of knowing t h a t maybe t h a t person's endorsement was k ind of a k i s s of dea th i n h i s own area. [ l aughs] H i s own persona l en thus iasm d i d n o t n e c e s s a r i l y mean t h a t he was t h e f e l l o w t o do it. That 's where I t h i n k t h e s e p o l i t i c a l p r o f e s s i o n a l teams l i k e Spencer- Roberts, and t h e r e a r e o t h e r s , l i k e Baus and Ross and a l l of them, and t h e i r g r e a t knowledge comes in. They know who t h e people a r e i n t h e s t a t e , t h a t i f they endorse you it has a s i g n i f i c a n c e ; i f they ag ree t o work f o r you, it 's more s i g n i f i c a n t . There a r e o t h e r s t h e n t h a t could be harmful.

Sharp: T e l l me how you p a r t i c i p a t e d i n t h e day-to-day p rog re s s of t h e campaign i n t h e pre-pr imary period.

Reagan: Well, once you g e t on t h e t r a i l and someone e l s e has done t h e schedul ing, we'd s i t on t h e bus o r t h e p l ane o r whatever i t was, and I ' d b e w r i t i n g .

Sharp: So w r i t i n g t h e speeches and d e l i v e r i n g t h e speeches were your main a c t i v i t i e s , your day-to-day a c t i v i t i e s ?

Reagan: And s tudying t h e i s s u e s t h a t came along, doing t h e homework, reading.

Sharp: Did you l i k e t o do a l o t of your own r e s e a r c h f o r developing your own ideas about t h e issues--?

Reagan: Always have.

Sharp: --Like read ing f i v e o r s i x d i f f e r e n t newspapers?

Reagan: Yes. I t ' s a h a b i t I s t i l l h a v e today . I t ' s l i k e a monkey on y o u r back. Now, doing t h e r a d i o show and t h e columns and a l l , people say t o me, ''Have you read--?" and they name a book and s o fo r th .

Nancy r eads them, but I am so busy w i t h a l l t h e r equ i r ed read ing , and t h e t h ings t h a t people have s e n t f o r me t o r ead [ t h a t I can't r e ad them]. I 've g o t t e n t o t h e p l ace where i t ' s l i k e c u t t i n g wood. My g r e a t e s t joy now i s when I advance on t h e wastebasket f i n a l l y w i t h a b ig packe t of papers I can dump. [ laughs I

Sharp: Now, i n t h e post-primary per iod , a f t e r you had won, what d i d t h e Republican p a r t y s t r u c t u r e do f o r you?

Reagan: Well, now i s when the p a r t y [helped]. For example, t he county chairmen put t oge the r fund-rais ing events i n t h e i r coun t i e s t o r a i s e money f o r t h e par ty and r a i s e it not only f o r you but f o r t h e o t h e r candidates. I t a l s o g ives you t h e oppor tuni ty t o appear before groups and so for th. A11 of t h a t got underway, bu t s t i l l your campaign o rgan iza t ion was your own.

I had a deep f e e l i n g about t h e "Eleventh Commandment," and t h e uni fy ing of t h e party. You need t o do th i s . So we had arranged i n advance i n our own c i r c l e t h a t we weren't j u s t going t o say t o t h e suppor te rs of those o t h e r candidates , "Well, now we'd l i k e t o have your help."_ Beginning t h e n ight of t h e primary e l ec t ion , we got on t h e phone r i g h t t o t h e headquar te rs where they were l i s t e n i n g t o t h e e l e c t i o n r e s u l t s i n o t h e r p laces , and spoke ind iv idua l ly t o people and sa id , "We want you, and we want you t o take t h e p o s i t i o n of co-chairman of th i s , " whatever i t was. I n o t h e r words, we had put i n our campaign s t r u c t u r e openings f o r t hese people t o come aboard, and they did.

Within twenty-four hours a f t e r t h e [pr imary] e l e c t i o n , we had augmented and b u i l t t h e campaign o rgan iza t ion t h a t included l eade r s of t h e campaigns f o r t h e o t h e r candidates .

Sharp: These were people l i k e Arch Monson?

Reagan: Arch Monson, Leonard F i res tone , any number of people. I can't name them a l l , but we brought them r i g h t i n t o t h e campaiga We d id have uni ty .

The Post-Primary Period: Building Par ty Strength, Speaking on t h e I s s u e s .

Sharp: What was t h e r o l e of t h e August Republican s t a t e convention i n t h e post-primary phase of your campaign?

Reagan: Oh, I 'm t r y i n g t o remember that .

Sharp: Maybe I can r e f r e s h your memory a l i t t l e b i t . The two b ig problems a t t h e Republican s t a t e convention were what s tand t h e p a r t y was going t o t a k e on t h e Rumford Act, and what s tand they were going t o take on t h e John Birch Socie ty and t h e l e t t e r t h a t Lee Sherry Smith sen t t o Gaylord Parkinson and t o t h e o t h e r heads of t h e Republican hierarchy.

Reagan: Now, t h i s was a most d i f f i c u l t t h ing f o r me. I was r a i s e d t o d e t e s t b igo t ry and pre judice , long before t h e r e was any t a l k of t h e c i v i l r i g h t s movement. C lea r back when I was a s p o r t s announcer,

Reagan: I used t o e d i t o r i a l i z e , because--you're t oo young t o remember-- [ i n ] baseba l l , organized baseba l l , b lacks were banned. I didn ' t have any W i l l i e Mays t o t a l k about when I was broadcasting. I thought t h a t was wrong, and I used t o e d i t o r i a l i z e about it. I n co l lege , I played f o o t b a l l bes ide a f e l l o w [ ~ r a n k l i n "Burky" ~ u r g h a r t 1 i n t h e l i n e who s t i l l t o t h i s day is one of my d e a r e s t f r iends . We fought and bled toge the r i n a day, i n a n e r a when you played both ways, o f fense and defense. Ours was a l i t t l e school. We usua l ly played schools much l a r g e r , so you r e a l l y d id bleed. You didn ' t have anybody t o t ake your place. You spent most of t h e s i x t y minutes i n there. But I a l s o f e l t deeply about precedents being e s t ab l i shed f o r t h e invas ion of p r i v a t e proper ty r i g h t s and so for th.

La ter , a f t e r I became governor, I changed my f e e l i n g about t h a t , when a f t e r meeting a l l over t h e s t a t e w i th members of t h e minor i ty community, I r e a l i z e d t h e symbolism of t h e Rumford Act. I was, i n o the r words, favor ing t h e r epea l of it. When I r e a l i z e d t h e symbolism of i t , and how much i t meant morale-wise t o them [b l acks ] , I f r ank ly s a i d no. I changed my mind.

Sharp: On t h e John Birch Society i s sue , e s s e n t i a l l y t h e Republican convention sa id , "Okay, wel l , we're not going t o take any s tand a t a l l on t h e John Birch Society." Lee Sherry Smith had sen t a l e t t e r saying,. "We should condemn t h e John Birch Society; they have no p l ace i n t h e Republican party." The convention s a i d e s s e n t i a l l y nothing, t h a t they were not going t o say t h a t t h e John Birch Society cannot be a p a r t , and they ' re no t going t o say anything r e a l l y support ing i t e i t h e r ,

Now, t h e s e two s t a t emen t s t h a t t h e convention made, t h e an t i - Rumford Act s tand and t h e s o r t of n e u t r a l s tand on t h e John Birch Society--did they have any impact on your own campaign?

Reagan: No, Many t imes t h a t had come up i n t h e ' 6 2 e l e c t i o n , t h e Birch Society. I have always f e l t t h a t Mr. Welch took some f a c t u a l m a t e r i a l and drew some wrong conclusions w i t h it. But I had been bloodied p r e t t y we1 1 i n t h e anti-Communis t s i t u a t i o n i n Hollywood, and I have t o t e l l you t h a t today h i s t o r y i s being r e w r i t t e n dras- t i c a l l y . [ lowers vo ice ] There was a Communist p l o t i n t h e motion p i c t u r e industry. I speak from t h e s tandpoin t of having been on t h e board of d i r e c t o r s of what turned out t o be a Communist-front organiza t ion , t h e Hollywood Independent C i t i zens Commit t e e f o r t h e Arts , Sciences and Profess ions , and when some of u s l i k e Dore Schary and Jimmy Roosevelt and Ol iv i a DeHavilland and myself and a number of s t a l w a r t Democrats--I was a Democrat then--had been deceived, when we i n a b o d y ' l e f t t h e board of d i r e c t o r s of t h a t group, it ceased t o ex i s t . We were the f r o n t behind which they were operat ing.

7 6 . . - ~ a S l j . n b ~ I ; X r i b u n e Fri.; Aug. 5,1966 -- . . . . . . . . . , - : , . !

Nominees, to

. . .. . . . ,

' . B~ DAVE HOPE . . Tribune Political Writer

s.-ICRA~IENTO - .~e~;bl ican nominees for state. offices meek in cqnvention here tomorrow to draft a platEorm for tine general election campaign, with the issue of extremism hovering in the background.

An urgent. plea to denounce the John. Birch Society went to delegates yestereay from Mrs. Lee Sherry of Sac Rafael, women's vice.chairman of the state central committee for Northern. California.. but. there was no a p parent- move to place it before the convention. . - - '-

. . i . . .

&IS.: sherry is not a delegate to $,he convention which is con- fined to the 168 nominees for

._constitutiorral a d legislative of- lices, and the two incumbent U.S. senators. .

PLANS NO ACTION And Xrs. Sherry said she has

'.no intention" of bringing the issue before any of the commit- 1 tees that will be drafting platform planks tomorrow. She added that she has not heard from anyone else ?vho might take suchaction:

"Whatever ,they do, I \ill support the nominees and the platform," she declared, "but I do think it will be a mistake ,oE they do not take a strong stand on the extremism issue.? .'

Mrs. Sherry said she will not join Californians for Brown, an organization of Republicans and Independents supporting the in- c u m b e n t Gov. Edmund G. Brown. "I am an officer of the Republican - state central committee and I donot intend to re-

.sign to support- Brown," she de- ! clared POLITICAL WORK '.

ME. S h e q took a leave of absence from the committee in ' the.. COP presidential primary in 196.1, to work for New York Gov. Nekon Rockefeller. She supported Geurge Christopher, I who lost to Ronald Reagan in I the contest for the gubernatorial/ omi in at ion t b s Year. I

Dr. Gaylord B. Parkinson, ! GO' Pstate chairman, said Mrs. Sherry's letter probably will be considered by the platofrm

RUMFORD ACT .: ''

- The platform is likely to call for repeal of the.Rumford Act, i whi ch prohibits: discrimination / in housing, or offer a substi,tute I for that measure: The Rumford I Act was nullified by a . 2-1 vote 1 favoring Proposition 14 at the 1 1964 election, but this was rev- ersed by . the: 'State . Supreme Court. ' : : , ' . "- , : Unless :. sbmeone , kicks: over I

I the traces on a platfoqn issue.; the new: ,Republican . aura - of ; peace and harmony .should -pre- vail over tomorrow's meeting.

The .major event on the- p r p ) gry,is.a;rally :in the. Sacram-.! ento:: Memorial ,...4 uditorium. to- I morrow~night~when all ..midi- 1 dates .~m; :be*jntrodu&d-.._and I ~~a&~.%ifi.?d@&: ~ - . p h " ; 1 pal address; I 1:,+:: '. ,' '.i:7. - . I PROGRAM PLANNED;. :;"I:":,'.

- The convention its= will be i oneday - affair,. opening

"It is no secret that

JIrs. Sherry said. - 1 . . ' . - '

-1 feel that I have inade my point, a n d l have full confidence to be favored--,:, in the nominees. to- adopt a good

,... ~- .. .". . '

I

I

: ? O F mcriring ZS SiibCiimii~kts j start considering p 1 at f o r m i planks which will be submitted ' to a general session tomorrow 1 afternoon. I

-4 c a m p a i g n ~ ~ o r k s h o ~ for j part). workers will be in opera- ! lion throughout the day in the 1 Memorial Auditorium. 1 ,

In past years, the GOP state i convention has been followed I

the next day by a meeting of the slate central committee, but a rule zdopted in 1964 changed the central committee session to January of alternate years.

Democrats will follow- the old schedule next wekend with their state convention set for Satur- day and the central committee meeting Sunday. ,

Reagan: The whole m a t t e r of t h e g r e a t j u r i s d i c t i o n a l s t r i k e t h a t went on f o r months and months when I was p r e s i d e n t of t h e Screen Actors Guild--i t was n o t witch-hunt'ing. The witch-hunt ing was t h e o t h e r way. 'The Communists were so entrenched i n t h e p i c t u r e bus ine s s , they could d e s t r o y c a r e e r s , and they did.

So when i t came t o t h i s t h i n g of t h e Bi rch Soc i e ty , f rom t h e ve ry f i r s t , I s a id , "Look, I 'm no t going t o condemn them o r r e p u d i a t e them. Anyone who chooses t o suppo r t me has bought my philosophy. I 'm n o t buying t h e i r s . Now, i f someone--I don't c a r e what he believes--comes and s ays t o me, "I 'm going t o v o t e f o r you because I ag ree w i t h t h e t h i n g s t h a t you're say ingsw w e l l , I ' m n o t going t o t e l l him I don ' t want h i s vote. Th is was t h e p o s i t i o n t h a t I took f rom t h e beginning on t h e B i r ch Soc ie ty , and i n f a c t pu t o u t a s t a t e m e n t which I ' m s u r e you've s een i n t h e pape r s up t h e r e t o t h a t e f f e c t .

Sharp: NOW, I have a s e r i e s of q u e s t i o n s about campaign con t r i bu t i ons . I'd l i k e you t o t e l l me about t h e k inds of groups and i n d i v i d u a l s who c o n t r i b u t e d t o your campaign.

Reagan: Well , t h a t ' s going t o be d i f f i c u l t because one of t h e f i r s t t h i n g s t h a t was t o l d t o me by t hose people who knew more about it was they wanted me t o s t a y away from s o l i c i t i n g o r any th ing else--in o t h e r words, [ f rom] having t o say t o someone, "I want your f i n a n c i a l help." And I never d i d a s k f o r it. They s a i d , ''We w i l l t a k e c a r e o f t ha t . "

I t o l d you about t h e one i n c i d e n t of what they did. The on ly t h i n g I know--and t o t h i s day I 'm s t i l l v e r y proud of [ t h i s ] - - t hey t o l d me, t h e f i n a n c i a l people, t h a t I broke a l l r e c o r d s i n C a l i f o r n i a f o r t h e number of c o n t r i b u t o r s s o t h a t i t pro-ra ted o u t t h a t t h e average c o n t r i b u t i o n was something under $20. I was very proud of tha t .

I n o t h e r words, we were no t b a s i c a l l y funded by f a t ca t s . That was about t h e e x t e n t of it. I n o t h e r words, u n l e s s somebody came and t o l d me t h a t he'd g iven x-number of d o l l a r s t o my campaign, t hose f e l l o w s d idn ' t r e l a y it. Again, from t h e s tand- p o i n t t h a t they d i d n o t want me t o f e e l t h a t now, oh gee, t h i s f e l l o w over h e r e h a s something coming. I was never sub j ec t ed t o t ha t .

Sharp: Do you have any i d e a what t h e t y p i c a l l a r g e dona t i on was, say, $5,000 o r more?

Reagan: I t h i n k t h e r e w e r e probably even some of $10,000 because t h e e l e c t i o n laws were much d i f f e r e n t then. I would t h i n k t h a t t h e r e would be' c o n t r i b u t i o n s of t h a t s ize .

Citizens Committee To Elect

RONALD REAGAN

: A l l Reagan f o r Governor H e a d q u a r t e r s

HE; '!Speaking Out f o r C a l i f o r n i a 1 '

Dear F e l l o w C a l i f o r n i a n : ;

A f t e r r e a d i n g t h i s cierno we f e e l you v i i l l a g r e e t h a t t h i s p r o - g r a r , "Speaking Out f o r C a l i f o r n i a 1 ' , c a n be one o f t h e most e f f e c t i v e car i~paign i d e a s y e t . Vie hope you w i l l b e g i n work on i t i r m e d i a t e l y .

The ileagan f o r hovernor Campaign hopes t o c o v e r t h e e n t i r e s t a t e w i t h f u l l page a d s i n a l l newspapers c o n s i s t i n g of s t a t e r c e n t s by i n d i v i d u a l s f r o m a l l walks of l i f e on ~ihjr t h e y want nona ld Eieagan f o r Governor.

F i n d o u t t h e c o s t o f a f u l l page ad i n y c u r l o c a l nevispaper , t h e n , f i n 2 a b o u t 1 0 3 p e o p l e who w i l l s h a r e t i le c o s t (oi?e pzge $300 ,00 , 100 p e o p l e @ $3,00 e a c h ) ( Y o u c a n g e t f e w e r p e o p l e and t h e c o s t would go up a c c o r d i ~ i g l y . You c a n a l s o t a k e r u t a page ad o r l e s s w h a t e v e r you c a n f i l l i n y c u r a r e a . ) . No p e r s o n c a n o b t a i n sn ad i n any newspaper f o r $3.30, b u t f o r a p p r o x i m a t e l y t h a t p r i c e h e c a n s t a t e i n a ~ ~ a x i m m o f 50 words why h e v;ill v o t e f o r Ronald i3eagan f o r b o v e r n c r . i a c h i n d i v i d u a l n u s t s i g n h i s name s o t h a t h i s f r i e n d s and n e i g h b o r s c a n b e i n f l u e n c e d by what h e h a s t c s a y , Also we would l i k e h i s p l a c e o f employrzent and i f he b e l o n g s t o a u n i o n , t h e name of t h a t un ion . T h i s way l o c 2 1 r e s i d e n c e s c a n r e c o g n i z e rimes, b u s i n e s s e s t a b l i s h - r ~ e n t s , and u n i o n s .

The o b j e c t of t h i s e f f o r t i s n o t t c c o l l e c t money f o r t h e cam- p a i g n , b u t t o show i n a v e r y c o n c r e t e viay t h a t Eany normal e v e r y d a y p e o p l e a r e s u p p o r t i n g d o n s l d Heagzn f o r Governor of C a l i f o r n i a .

Sone a r e a s nlay be a b l e t o f i l l 1i;ore t h a n one page, o t h e r s nay o n l y f i l l h page , I f you c a n f i l l n o r e t h a n one , p l a c e t h e n on d i f f e r e n t d a y s . 811 a d s a r e t o b e p l a c e d b e g i n n i n g one week b e f o r e e l e c t i o n day and a t t h e bo t tom of t h e page pri11t :"8~yone w i s h i n g t c Speak Out f o r C a l i f o r n i a p l e a s e c a l l ' I . (Your number)

Any p e r s o n p l a c i n g h i s e r h e r ad w i l l be v e r y p l e a s e d t o know t h a t ;Sgnzld Iieagan would l i k e -a cogy of e a c h ad,-f o r h i n s e l g , s o vie would a p p r e c i a t e i t v z r y much i f when t h e ad a p p e s r s i n your l o c a l . -

n e w s p ~ . p e r , you would send a copy t o : i r . N e i l Iieagan - - i . icCann-2rickson, I n c . 3325 ! l i l s h i r e 3 o u l ? v a r a Los Ange les , C s l i f o r n i a 4.3005

One psge ad v i i l l c o n s i s t of t h e t i t l e : Speak ing Out f o r C a l i f o r n i a , k o n a l b Reagan ' s p i c t u r e i n t h e r , , iddle , hnd t h e i n d i v i d u a l a d s f i l l i n g t h e r e s t of t h e s p a c e . 3ne ad r i igh t r e a d :

Le f e e l t h a t Aonald i3eaganfs ' ' C r e a t i v e S o c i e t y t 1 i s t h e n e s t f a n t a s t i c i d e a t o be p r e s e n t e d i n t h e p a s t 43 y e a r s . I t w i l l a l l o w us a s c i t i z e n s t o once s g a i n r e a l l y p a r t i c i p a t e i n t h e r u n n i n g ~f our g o v e r n n e n t . dd and Karen , ; a r t i n

G e n e r a l Telephone - Chk $798

l ie hope t h a t you a s s o r t o f a s u p e r v i s o r will watch t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h e ads s o t h a t i:e d o n ' t a c c i d e n t a l l y o f f e n d anyone.

h e r e a l i z e t h i t t h i s may c r e s t e 2 l c t of n e r k f o r Y O U and you ~ u s t Irnou t h a t a l l you a r e d o i n g i s g r e a t l y a p p r e c i a t e d . I t h i n k you v ~ i l l f i n d t h a t your g r e a t e s t reward t i l l be a good, h o n e s t , s i n c e r e Governor f o r C a l i f o r n i a , Ronald deagan . Thank y c u a g a i n .

Zd and Karen , , a r t in Speak ing Gut

F.S: If t h e r e i s a n ' o v e r p a s s on any freetyay 2 e a r your h e a d q u a r t e r s h e r e i s a n i d e a f o r sonie young p e o p l e t o i n i t i a t e . P a i n t a b a n n s r - Rezgan f o r Governor - o r sohe o t h e r a p p r o p r i a t e s l o g a n and c a l k back and f o r t h on t h e o v e r p a s s d u r i n g t h e l a s t f e ~ i d a y s . The weekend e s ? e c i a l l y , b u t F r i d a y and iiondsy c o u l d be v e r y e f f e c t i v e t o o . T h i s nay even a t t r a c t t e l e v i s i o n c o v e r a g e . Thznks a g z i n .

Sharp: I n September of '66, Frank Wil l iams commented on the c o n t r i b u t i o n s from Connecticut Republicans t o your campaign. Can you t e l l me about c o n t r i b u t i o n s from out -of -s ta te Republicans?

Reagan: I 'm s u r e t h e r e were some, When Connecticut comes t o mind, [ t h e r e i s ] on ly one I can t h i n k of , one of my campaigners who came h e r e a s a volunteer . He was a young man named Tom [ ~ h o m a s C.] Reed, And Tom's f a t h e r , Gordon Reed, con t r ibu t ed t o my campaign.

Sharp: And he was from Connect icut?

Reagan: Yes. Now, he may have had f r i e n d s , I 'm sure , He must have had f r i e n d s t h a t he probably persuaded t o do t h e same _thing.

Sharp: The San Franc isco Chronicle r epo r t ed i n J u l y of '66 t h a t you had a t tended p e r i o d i c meet ings of t h e Republican pa r ty i n C a l i f o r n i a which d i scus sed how money would be r a i s e d f o r t h e campaign. Do you remember going t o t h e s e meet ings?

Reagan: I don't know. There must have been some t h a t I a t tended , and planning fund- ra i se r shows t o be put on, banquets and s o fo r th ,

Sharp: I wanted t o show you t h i s memo t h a t I found i n t h e Reagan papers from Thomas P ike and irk Eldredge, On t h e second page i t breaks downs the percentage of t h e money t o be r a i s e d t h a t would go i n t o va r ious people 's campaigns i n Cal i fornia .

Reagan: [ r eads memo] Yes. This is what you do when you do a fund r a i s e r . From t h e ve ry f i r s t , I had always insisted--my f a v o r i t e l i n e t o t h e people was, "Don't send me up t h e r e alone," So I c o n s t a n t l y emphasized t h a t I wanted those o t h e r people t o win too. Now those percentages seem ve ry smal l , bu t t hose were even t s t h a t were a Reagan fund r a i s e r and so for th .

Before t h e campaign ended, a number of people, inc lud ing Bob Finch, subsequent ly got more vo t e s than I did. [ l aughs] Before t h e campaign was ended, he was a t one po in t twenty p o i n t s behind i n t h e po l l s , On my s p e c i f i c demand, t h a t I didn ' t want t o be t h e r e alone, we changed our whole campaign p l a n w i t h our own money. Bob Finch changed h i s schedule and jo ined me. We campaigned toge ther , We g o t our b i l l b o a r d s t h a t s a id , "Elect t h e Team," and made i t t h e whole team and everything.

By t h a t t ime, we f e l t t h a t I was i n a p r e t t y s o l i d posit ion. We ordered t h e whole campaign, and I would e s t i m a t e t h a t probably a h a l f a m i l l i o n d o l l a r s of my own campaign funds were used i n behalf of t h e o t h e r c o n s t i t u t i o n a l candidates.

Sharp: Is t h i s an example, then, of t h e network t h a t t h e Republican pa r ty nominees had by t h e genera l e l e c t i o n , t h a t t h e r e r e a l l y was a s ense of a team--?

Reagan: Yes.

Sharp: -With a l o t of t h e candidates?

Reagan: Yes, yes. But i t _was q u i t e unusual; I th ink you' l l f i n d , f o r example, on t h e o ther side--now, I don't know t h a t much about it, I r e a l l y don't know the d e t a i l s of it. But I would be inc l ined t o b e l i e v e t h a t Governor [ P a t ] Brown, i n turn , was not doing anything f o r anybody e lse . [ laughs] It i sn ' t u sua l ly done.

Sharp: Le t me ask you now some ques t ions about f i v e i s s u e s t h a t came up throughout the campaign. The f i r s t one i s t h e Vietnam war. How big a p a r t d id t h e Vietnam war and your views on i t play i n t h e campaign i n Ca l i fo rn ia?

Reagan: Well, it was usua l ly brought up, I d id no t campaign t h a t t h i s was a n issue. But where t h a t s t a r t e d was i n t h a t period when I was speaking a l l over t h e s t a t e , and a s I say, speaking on na t iona l and i n t e r n a t i o n a l a f f a i r s , I remember up someplace i n t h e middle of t h e s t a t e one of those times--oh, and t h i s i s t h e remark they're t r y i n g t o br ing back t o haunt me with--when I was not a candidate , t h e press asked me something about t h e Vietnamese war.

This was when t h e f i r s t a c t u a l i l l e g a l moves had s t a r t e d , such a s ly ing down i n f r o n t of t roop t r a i n s , t ry ing t o prevent t r a i n s of supp l i e s and s o f o r t h being unloaded f o r shipment overseas. And we had k i d s dying over t h e r e i n a war. Lord, t h e f i r s t Democratic p re s iden t t h a t s e n t t roops i n t h e r e was [ ~ o h n F.] Kennedy. The [ ~ o u g l a s l MacArthur pol icy of no involvement i n t h e land war i n Asia had been t h e po l i cy u n t i l t h e Democrats were in , and then [ ~ y n d o n B.] Johnson, of course, was t h e one who r e a l l y revved i t up i n t o a major war.

i

I remember i n t h i s discussion, I sa id , "Well, i sn ' t it s t range t h a t people a r e a b l e t o do l e g a l l y what amounts t o giving comfort and a i d t o t h e enemy. They'd be charged wi th t reason i f t h i s was a dec lared war." I sa id , " I t ' s a war t o t h e f e l l o w s t h a t a r e f i g h t i n g i t and g e t t i n g shot." Of course, i n saying t h a t one of the press men sa id , "Well, should i t be?" And I sa id , "Why not? Why couldn't we so lve t h i s whole ma t t e r of how t o handle the ac tua l i n t e r f e r e n c e wi th t h e war effort--not j u s t people d isagree ing w i t h it, but t h e a c t u a l i n t e r f erence--by dec lar ing war?"

Out of i t t h a t same day came the l i n e t h a t they kept on things, F ina l ly , I grew impatient. "You know, look, i t ' s r i d i c - ulous t h a t our young men a r e dying i n a war wi th a country whose whole gross na t iona l product i s l e s s than t h e i n d u s t r i a l output of Cleveland, Ohio." I used the expression, "If we could g e t t h i s over with--if we would simply go i n t h e r e and do it, good Lord, we've got t he s t r e n g t h t o l e v e l North Vietnam, pave i t , p a i n t s t r i p e s on it, and make a parking l o t ou t of it." [ laughs h e a r t i l y ]

Reagan: And, oh, how t h a t came back! During the campaign, they'd keep t r y i n g t o remind [me]. I d id not make i t a n i s s u e i n the campaign. It was brought up t o me from those pre-campaign days.

Sharp: According t o t h e [San Francisco] Chronicle i n October of 1966, you thought t h a t Propos i t ion 14 was c o n s t i t u t i o n a l because people should have t h e r i g h t t o dispose of t h e i r own property i n any manner t h a t they chose to, They shouldn't be forced t o r e n t t o somebody o r s e l l t o someone t h a t they didn ' t want t o r e n t o r s e l l to, What impact on your campaign and your e l e c t i o n do you th ink t h i s s t ance had?

Reagan: I th ink it cont r ibuted t o a f a l s e image because I always surrounded and prefaced any such remark w i t h my bel ief--well , my oppos i t ion t o pre judice and bigotry. I emphasized t h a t I thought t h a t anyone (a p re s iden t o r a governor) should use t h e i r moral leadersh ip t o pub l i c ly disavow anyone who d id anything of t h i s kind, t o t r y and c r e a t e a c l i m a t e i n which i t would be--well, you would a lmost moral ly outlaw people who discr iminated.

But again, I was concerned about what t h e precedent was, t h e precedent t h a t we s e t , i f we agreed t h a t t h e government's r ight . This i s a p r e t t y important poin t i n the c o n s t i t u t i o n , and i t was p a r t of what made us r e b e l aga ins t England, t h e r i g h t of t he individual . As a ma t t e r of f a c t , I once sa id , "If somebody i n Santa Monica wants t o say t h a t he w i l l only r e n t t o members of t h e Rotary Club who have f r e c k l e s and r e d h a i r [ laughs] , i sn ' t t h a t h i s r i g h t w i t h h i s property, i f he's f o o l i s h enough t o want t o do that?" I recognize t h a t ' s not a popular way t o say i t , and t h a t you're open t o a l l kinds of misunderstanding. I t h i n k t h a t it did c r e a t e an image t h a t I th ink subsequent ac t ions i n o f f i c e d i spe l l ed .

I have been speaking f o r a number of years on government usurping r i g h t s i t didn ' t have.

Sharp: Did t h i s bother you, t h a t people might vo te f o r you because they thought t h a t you were prejudiced a g a i n s t black people o r any minor i ty , and t h a t t h a t was t h e reason t h a t you had supported Propos i t ion 141

Reagan: It bothered me t o t h e ex ten t t h a t when 'we met a f t e r t h e primary a s candidates , a l l candidates f o r t he assembly, senate, and everything had a b i g meeting i n Sacramento. And of course, I was unknown t o many of those people. The ques t ion came up from a b lack candidate of ours, t h a t would I be r e l u c t a n t t o help them, out of f e a r t h a t some of my suppor ters would then t u r n aga ins t me? I t o l d t h e e n t i r e assembled group, I sa id , "If I understand you, you're saying, would I no t want t o h e l p you run f o r o f f i c e f o r f e a r t h a t

Reagan: someone would n o t v o t e f o r me because I was do ing t h a t ? I w i l l t e l l you now, I don't want t h e v o t e of anyone who would v o t e a g a i n s t m e f o r t h a t reason. I a m going t o do e v e r y t h i n g I can t o h e l p e v e r y o n e o f you."

I made i t p l a i n t h a t I wouldn't want t h e v o t e of anyone who would t a k e t h a t p o s i t i o n .

Sharp: The Democrats f a i l e d t o s t i g m a t i z e you as a member of t h e John B i r c h S o c i e t y .

Reagan: And t h e y s u r e t r i e d . [ l a u g h s ]

Sharp: Did you f e e l a t t h e t i m e of t h e campaign t h a t t h i s i s s u e was a major one, t h a t you had t o f i g h t every day t h a t you g o t up?

Reagan: Well , i t began t o look t h a t way, t h e c o n s t a n t q u e s t i o n i n g , because they had something t h e r e t o d i g a t . That 's why t h e campaign f i n a l l y p u t t h e s t a t e m e n t out. And from t h e n on, t o s h u t i t o f f i n p r e s s confe rences , I would s i m p l y say, 'You have my s t a t e m e n t on t h a t . I have no th ing t o add t o t h a t . It 's a l l i n t h e statement." And it went away.

Sharp: What was your s t a n d on t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f C a l i f o r n i a ?

Reagan: Wel l , now, h e r e ' s where i t d idn ' t t a k e any--. [Tape ends ] ## he e d i t o r asked M r . Reagan t o r e c o n s t r u c t what h i s answer migh t have been. 1

I t h i n k I must have been s a y i n g t h a t it d i d n ' t r e a l l y t a k e any d e c i s i o n on my p a r t as t o a s t a n d on t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f C a l i f o r n i a . I n a l l my campaign appearances I had opened them up t o Q and A [ q u e s t i o n and answer] , and wherever I went i n t h e s t a t e t h e f i r s t q u e s t i o n and l i t e r a l l y t h e f i r s t hal f -dozen q u e s t i o n s w e r e abou t what I would do abou t t h e U n i v e r s i t y of C a l i f o r n i a a t Berkeley. ransc script resumes.]

Reagan: S t u Spencer and B i l l Rober t s c a l l e d me, v e r y u p s e t , had a new problem, and I jo ined them f o r lunch downtown. They t o l d me t h a t [ p a t ] Brown was beginning t o make headway w i t h a campaign t h i n g i n which h e was say ing , "Well, remember, he ' s a n a c t o r . Sure h e makes a good speech--" because my speeches were being, I guess , e f f e c t i v e . And h e s a i d , "But remember, as a n a c t o r , he's used t o l e a r n i n g l i n e s . Who w r i t e s t h o s e speeches?"

Spencer and Rober t s were say ing , "How a r e we going t o c o u n t e r t h i s one?" I s a i d , "Well, i t won't do any good f o r me t o g e t up and say , 'I w r i t e my own speeches i n t h e campaign.' They expect . me t o say t h a t , even though i t ' s true."

Reagan: This was a l i t t l e u p s e t t i n g t o Spencer and Roberts because I found out t h a t t h e p ro fe s s iona l s don't r e a l l y have a high regard f o r candidates. They kind of th ink of them a s a ho r se i n t h e s t a l l , [ l aughs] and t h e y ' l l t ake them out and r u n 'em when they th ink they should be run.

I sa id , "Look, I w i l l sho r t en down my speech from here on, t o every s i n g l e appearance, whether i t ' s t h i r t y people o r t h r e e thousand, and then throw t h e meeting open t o ques t ions and answers." I s a i d , "They've g o t a r i g h t t o a s k me. I f I ' m a s k i n g them f o r t h e i r vo te , they've g o t a r i g h t t o f i n d out anything they want t o know. Somebody may th ink t h a t someone e l s e wrote t h a t s h o r t speech, but t h e y ' l l have t o know t h a t nobody could w r i t e t h e answers t o those quest ions. One thing--if we do i t , you have t o swear t o me t h a t you w i l l never ask anyone i n a n audience t o ask me a question. I f t he re ' s one person t h a t can go o u t of t h e r e saying, 'Well, I was t o l d t o ask him t h i s , ' then t h e whole p l a n goes out t h e window."

They were a l i t t l e discomfi ted. They sa id , "Are you su re t h a t you--" and I know t h a t they must have l o s t s l eep th inking , "What's he going t o say?" But we s t a r t e d doing that . This turned o u t t o be t h e most i n fo rma t ive th ing t h a t ever happened where I was concerned. Because you could s tudy a l l you wanted t o on what you thought might be t h e i s s u e s i n people's minds, bu t wherever i t was i n t h e s t a t e - - a f t e r t h e f i r s t half-dozen ques t ions from t h e f l o o r , wherever i t was, mountain, d e s e r t , seashore, t he s i t u a t i o n a t Berkeley and i n t h e u n i v e r s i t y came up. This i s how t h i s became a n i s s u e .

I didn ' t make it a p a r t of my speech u n t i l way l a t e i n t h e campaign when f i n a l l y you knew t h a t t h i s was going t o be t h e whole quest ion, and you had answered i t over and over again--then I f i n a l l y put t h e answers I'd been given i n t o a po r t ion of t he b r i e f speech. When t h e hands would go up, t h e minute you opened t h e ques t ion period, t h e f i r s t ques t ion was [about] Berkeley, and you'd answer it. You'd s e e twenty hands then go down--that was t h e i r question. You knew t h a t t h i s was the number one th ing on t h e p e o p l e ' s minds.

Now, t h e oppos i t i on t r i e d t o make ou t t h a t I was persecut ing the u n i v e r s i t y f o r p o l i t i c a l advantage. I wasn't. I had never mentioned Berkeley a s a n inc ident , o r a s an i ssue , u n t i l those ques t ion and answer se s s ions , and t h a t was t h e thing. I learned t h a t t h e people of t h i s s t a t e had had a very, very deep and g r e a t p r ide i n t h e u n i v e r s i t y system. Because of t h a t , they were ve ry emotional ly involved and d i s tu rbed w i t h what was happening t o what they thought was the g r e a t p r ide of Cal i forn ia . My own p o s i t i o n was born of t h e answers t h a t I gave t o those quest ions.

Sharp: I n October o f '66, you a t t emp ted t o s t o p a n a t t emp ted b l a c k power r a l l y a t [u.c.] Berkeley, and i t was t h e one where S tok ley Carmichael was scheduled t o speak. Why d i d you do t h a t ?

Reagan: When was t h i s ?

Sharp: October of '66, n o t t o o long b e f o r e t h e g e n e r a l e l e c t i on . There was going t o be a b l ack power r a l l y scheduled a t [u.c.] Berkeley. Berkeley o f f i c i a l s s a i d i t was okay, and you came o u t and appa ren t l y s a i d t h a t you had t r i e d t o communicate w i t h S tok l ey Carmichael, a sk ing him no t t o come, t o s t o p t h e r a l l y . I wondered why you d i d t h a t ?

Reagan: The on ly t h ing I can t h i n k was--you know, a l l t h e t a l k of r i o t i n g t h a t was going on. Of c o u r s e , we'd had t h e Wat t s r i o t s . I n o t h e r words, t o p reven t v io lence ,

Sharp: What d i d you t h i n k of t h e f i n d i n g s of t h e Burns committee, t h a t t h e u n i v e r s i t y had been degraded by t h e d i s s i d e n c e ?

Reagan: I ' m t r y i n g t o remember w h a t p o s i t i o n I d i d take, b u t I d i d t h i n k t h a t i t had. I thought t h a t because i t was s o appa ren t from t h e very beginning t h a t t h e bulk of t h e s t u d e n t s weren' t involved. That was one t h i n g t h a t d i s t u r b e d me, t h a t t h e bu lk of t h e s t u d e n t s were going t o c l a s s , going t h e i r way. But i f they had any p r i d e i n t h e i r own schoo l , I couldn' t unders tand why they themselves d id n o t s t and up and s ay t o t h a t m i n o r i t y of s t uden t s : "Stop demeaning our un ivers i ty . " It bo thered me,

As I say, I had gone t o a school where s t u d e n t s used t o f e e l a k ind of r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r t h e i n s t i t u t i o n , It was t h e i r s , SO I couldn' t d i s a g r e e w i t h t h a t , w i t h what they were saying. I f e l t a l s o a t t h e t ime t h a t t h e a d m i n i s t r a t o r s were appeasing, t h a t t hey weren' t s t and ing up t o t h e s tuden ts . The funny t h i n g is, every p l a c e i n t h e count ry du r ing a l l t hose r i o t o u s s i x t i e s , even a f t e r I was governor, l i k e t h e Un ive r s i t y of Denver and s o f o r t h , where they would s t a n d up t o them, t h e r e was no d i s tu rbance .

The E l e c t i o n a s a Whole

Sharp: Now I have some g e n e r a l ques t i ons about t h e e l e c t i o n as a whole. The [San F ranc i s co ] Chron ic le wro t e a l i s t of t h e people who t hey s a i d were t h e main people throughout your whole campaign." I wanted t o check t h i s l i s t w i t h you t o s e e what you thought.

*See i s s u e f o r 30 October 1966.

Reagan:

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan:

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

I may n o t be a b l e t o remember a l l of them. 1 'm bad on names. The

Chronicle was no t a suppor t ing pub l i ca t i on . [ laughs 1

I know. A l i t t l e p a r t of t h a t might have been t h e f a c t t h a t George Chris topher was t h e mayor of San Francisco.

I t h i n k s o , yes .

But it 's i n t e r e s t i n g t o read a newspaper t h a t i s i n t h e adversary p o s i t i o n t o s e e what they say about you, f o r you o r a g a i n s t you.

Yes. -

They s a i d t h a t Holmes T u t t l e , Robert T. Monagan--

Yes, t h a t was Bob Monagan, who became t h e speaker of t h e assembly.

Caspar Weinberger?

Yes.

And B i l l Roberts, of course. And Reverend W. F. McBirnie.

Dr . McBirnie--as a m a t t e r of f a c t , I have t o g i v e him c red i t . He was t h e one who came t o me w i t h t h e sugges t ion t o have a name f o r t he philosophy t h a t I was t a l k i n g about, "the Crea t ive society."

How d id you meet him?

I 'm t r y i n g t o remember. Someone i n our campaign group brought him t o meet me. He supported t h e v iews t h a t I had taken, you know, and I can remember him sugges t ing no t t o f a l l i n t o a t r a p of being always a g a i n s t , b u t t o make s u r e t h a t I was o f f e r i n g p o s i t i v e a l t e r n a t i v e s .

P h i l B a t t a g l i a ?

P h i l came aboard a s a campaign chairman, yes.

Herb Kle in?

Herb Kle in , yes.

He was a campaign s t a f f member?

Reagan: Yes, bu t on a vo lun tee r basis .

Sharp: And Gaylord Parkinson, of course. P a t r i c k Frawley?

Reagan: P a t Frawley was always a supporter . Not so much a c t i v e i n counci l s and s o f o r t h . He was a fund- ra i se r .

Sharp: Cy Rube1 we've a l ready t a lked about, and Walter Knott.

Reagan: Yes.

Sharp: Is t h a t t h e major l is t , those people?

Reagan: Oh, those were people who were p r e t t y much south of here, except f o r Cap [ ~ e i n b e r g e r l . But t h e r e were o ther people--Jack [ ~ a q u e l i n ] Hume i n San Francisco. I can't remember the names, but they were a l l over the s ta te . They were people t h a t were most ac t ive , and I would say were i n kind of the c i r c l e .

Sharp: Who was t h e most he lp i n a id ing your e l ec t ion? I s t h e r e one person who comes t o mind?

Reagan: Good Lord, no. I don ' t t h i n k so. I t h i n k i t would be u n f a i r t o many o t h e r s i f I s a i d so. As a ma t t e r of f a c t , we organized because of t h a t what we ca l l ed a k i t chen cabinet. This was including these people and o the r s , so t h a t we'd meet p e r i o d i c a l l y i n round t a b l e th ings and br ing them up t o da te on what I'd been doing, and where I'd been. [ I would] hear t h e i r input, ' which i s very valuable, from t h e s tandpoint t h a t they 're hearing t h e comments t h a t I would not hear from people out on the s t r e e t .

Sharp: What two o r t h r e e episodes do you th ink a f f e c t e d t h e outcome of t h e e l e c t i o n ?

Reagan: Mm. Well, c e r t a i n l y P a t [Brown] didn ' t help himself w i t h [ t h a t remark t o ] a l i t t l e b lack g i r l [about] when a n a c t o r k i l l e d Lincoln. As a ma t t e r of f a c t , you know, Hollywood was p r e t t y predominantly Democrat. So even people t h a t I had worked wi th and who were f r i e n d l y t o me j u s t wouldn't d e s e r t t h e i r party. A number of them, a f t e r he [ ~ r o w n ] d id t h a t , j u s t walked away from him, and jus t s a i d that--I don't say t h a t they came t o me--but they j u s t walked away, and considered t h a t they themselves had been insul ted. I couldn't understand t h e s t u p i d i t y of it. Because he not only d id i t once, he kept on running t h a t ad on te lev is ion . I j u s t never responded t o it. That was one.

Let me see i f I can th ink of--well, I remember another one. Brown's campaign s t a r t e d a q u i e t campaign, bu t you know, the re a r e no s e c r e t s , t o g e t people t o f lood t h e t a l k shows on radio. We simply announced t h a t t h a t was being done, and t h a t we didn't t h ink it was exac t ly t h e proper th ing t o do w i t h f r e e communications i n r ad io on those shows. An awful l o t of t a l k show hosts--as a m a t t e r of f a c t , I remember one of them t h a t go t a number of t h e [ p a t ] Brown headquarters i n Los Angeles, and put i t on the a i r and sa id , "Okay, c a l l them." And I guess a c t i v i t y stopped f o r about t h r e e hours. [ laughs 1

Sharp: That 's turn ing i t around.

Reagan: I th ink a h e l p f u l th ing happened i n Oakland when I went t o appear a t and v i s i t one of t h e government job-training cen te r s t h e r e where people were being t rained, Some l o c a l unions had organized a b ig demonstration. L i t e r a l l y t h e p o l i c e had t o c l e a r a way through them from the bus t o the school f o r me t o g e t through. They were violent . I mean, they were t ry ing t o swing s t i c k s and everything else. You had t o know t h a t t h e American people i n t h e i r f a i r n e s s responded because it was covered by t e l e v i s i o n , i t was a l l over t e l ev i s ion , I th ink t h a t was worth a few thousand votes.

Sharp: I have one b ig ques t ion . Lyn Nofziger t o l d me i n an in terv iew t h a t I had w i t h him, t h a t he thought t h a t you won i n 1966 simply because t h e people of C a l i f o r n i a were ready f o r you. B i l l Roberts s a i d t h a t you won because you r a n a p e r f e c t campaign, t h a t you--and everybody e l s e i n t h e campaign--didn't make any mistakes. Unfortunately, Pa t Brown's campaign d id have a l o t of mistakes.

The Peel a r t i c l e t h a t I s e n t you a copy of s a id t h a t you won because of the incumbency of Pa t Brown and a l l the disagreement and problems w i t h i n t h e Democratic party.*

Why do th ink you won?

Reagan: I th ink maybe a combination of some of those things, but I t h i n k I won because t h e people of Ca l i fo rn ia were aware tha t - - i t was a p o l i t i c a l admin i s t r a t ion . It was p o l i t i c s a s usual. Appointees t o government were l i t e r a l l y given a p r i c e l i s t a s t o what t h e i r con t r ibu t ion must be.

We knew t h e s t a t e was i n f i n a n c i a l t rouble , but we couldn't r e a l l y f i n d ou t the t roub le i t was i n u n t i l a f t e r I was elected. I have t o t e l l you, t o g ive you an example of t he kind of adminis- t r a t i o n , we s e t up an o f f i c e i n Sacramento t o s t a r t p u t t i n g together our a d m i n i s t r a t i o n when I was s t i l l governor-elect. We s e n t someone over t o have a meeting--Hale Champion s a i d t o him, "We're spending $1 m i l l i o n a day more than we're taking in. I 've g o t a g o l f game. Good luck."

It wasn't u n t i l I ac . tua l ly took o f f i c e t h a t we--and f o r me, who had been t a l k i n g economy, who had been t a l k i n g t h a t I thought the . t ax s t r u c t u r e was a l ready too high i n Ca l i fo rn ia , we were put i n the p o s i t i o n of having t o a sk f o r increased taxes , [and] found

*"The C a l i f o r n i a E lec t ions of 1966," Roy Peel , i n John .P. Carney and Wil l iam M. Alexander, eds., C a l i f o r n i a and un i t ed S t a t e s Governments , 196 7.

Reagan: t h a t they had f o r more than one year been s t a v i n g of f a t a x increase, It was a l i t t l e b i t l i k e New York City. They couldn't say no t o anyone. They were spending t h e money, bu t then they didn ' t want t o have t o a sk f o r a t a x increase , so they pu l l ed a gimmick.

For example, one year they advanced t h e c o l l e c t i o n of t h e co rpo ra t e t ax , so t h a t f o r one year they were g e t t i n g l a s t year ' s and t h i s year 's t a x a t once. Then they e l imina t ed t h e q u a r t e r l y payment of income t a x f o r ind iv idua ls . F i n a l l y t h e l a s t one, t o g e t them through t h e e l e c t i o n year , was when they changed wi th g r e a t f a n f a r e t o t h e a c c r u a l bookkeeping system.

Well, t h i s was t o h ide t h e f a c t t h a t by swi tch ing t o t h e new system t h i s would a g a i n cover t empora r i l y t h a t they were spending more than they were tak ing in. The a c c r u a l bookkeeping system i s .. very r e s p e c t a b l e i f i t ' s done proper ly i n a bus iness , where you do it w i t h an accumulated r e s e r v e t o cover t h e t r a n s i t i o n . The [ C a l i f o r n i a ] c o n s t i t u t i o n r e q u i r e s t h a t t h e budget must be balanced, o r you must submit a r eques t f o r funds t o balance it,

What we found when we got i n was t h a t they had a budget t h a t was balanced f o r twelve monthst spending, based on f i f t e e n monthst revenue, and you come i n i n t h e middle of t h a t f i s c a l year. So we have t h e l a s t s i x months i n which t h e roof was going t o f a l l in. Every day i t seemed a s i f you opened a drawer and found a whole mess.

I th ink t h e people suspected th i s . There was j u s t enough t rouble . They noted t h a t t he bus iness c l i m a t e was bad. We had dropped d r a s t i c a l l y i n t h e d e s i r a b i l i t y of C a l i f o r n i a a s a p l ace f o r new bus inesses and i n d u s t r i e s t o come. Businesses and indus- t r i e s were leav ing C a l i f o r n i a I knew t h a t a t t h a t t ime I was a b l e t o s t a t e t h a t major i n d u s t r i e s , s e v e r a l of them, had passed t h e word down from t h e i r headquarters , wherever i t may be, t h a t no expansion of any branch i n C a l i f o r n i a was t o t ake p l ace because of t h e poor bus iness c l i m a t e here. It was a l l of that . I th ink t h a t t h e i r chickens came home t o roost .

The f a c t t h a t I hadn't he ld p o l i t i c a l o f f i c e became a p lus , no t a minus. He [ P a t Brown] was running on h i s experience, and I turned it around and kep t saying, "Look, i f you want an experienced p o l i t i c i a n , r e - e l e c t P a t Brown." [ ~ e l e n e Von Damm e n t e r s ]

Von Damrn: Your t ime i s j u s t about up. He has appointments wai t ing.

Sharp: Thank you. I th ink t h a t ' s probably t h e end of my ques t ions .

The Statewide Meeting of Black Republicans: An Addi t iona l Pre-Primary Note

Reagan: Before you go, you have one i s s u e i n 'your packet of m a t e r i a l he re t h a t you hadn't asked about, my walking o u t of a b lack [ ~ e p u b 1 icans ' 1 meeting.*

Sharp: I didn ' t b r ing t h a t up because it was a f a i r l y c o n t r o v e r s i a l and s e n s i t i v e i t em, and I wasn't s u r e how you would f e e l about t a l k i n g a b o u t it.

Reagan: Well, I would be very happy t o t e l l you what happened. I wasn't walking o u t on them, They were having a s t a t e w i d e meet ing i n Santa Monica. [George] Chr i s topher and P a t r i c k , t h e o t h e r candida tes , and myself were inv i ted . This was one of t h e t imes , p r i n c i p a l l y because of P a t r i c k , that--

Sharp: This i s William Penn P a t r i c k ?

Reagan: Yes. This was one of t h e t imes t h a t t h e "Eleventh Commandment" go t a l i t t l e eroded, and they [Chris topher and p a t r i c k ] were p a i n t i n g m e a s a b i g o t i n a number of s u b t l e ways and so for th . I r e sen t ed it. F i n a l l y , I blew my top.

Now, what happened when I g o t up, i n response t o them, [was] t h a t I t o l d a l i t t l e i n c i h e n t t h a t I had known, a b lack f r i e n d of mine had t o l d i t t o me. And un fo r tuna t e ly , being angry and a l l , i t ' s an i n c i d e n t t h a t I have d i f f i c u l t y t e l l i n g wi thout my vo ice breaking, and i n no i n s i n c e r i t y a t a l l . This f r i e n d , black, was t e l l i n g me of h i s exper ience i n a park w i t h h i s three-year-old son on a ho t summer day, t h i r s t y . This was i n t h e South, H i s l i t t l e boy was c ry ing and wanting a drink. How did he exp la in t o him t h a t he was n o t a l lowed t o d r i n k out of those f o u n t a i n s ?

As I say, I have t o swallow when I th ink of it. I n r e p l y i n g t o them--and I was r e a l l y rep ly ing , and not a t a l o s s f o r words on this--I used t h a t and s a i d t h a t my dream was t h a t never aga in would anyone i n t h i s land ever have t o t e l l t h e i r c h i l d t h a t they couldn't have something because they were d i f f e r e n t , I walked o f f t h e p l a t fo rm and out of t h e meeting, But my anger was w i t h them [Chr i s topher and pa t r i ck ] .

Then I g o t home, which wasn't t oo f a r from t h e meeting, and my f e l l o w s were w i t h me. The meet ing was supposed t o cont inue on. We were going t o have d inne r and so fo r th , So I went back t o t h e meeting. [ laughs]

*Date of t h i s meeting was 7 March 1966.

Reagan: I 've always be l ieved t h a t you can p lay p o l i t i c a l games, but sometimes people j u s t know, and they ' re no t going t o be l i eve t h e s imp le t ru th . So, of course, i n t h e ques t i on and answer s e s s ions t h a t fol lowed t h a t , and t h e papers a l l d i d i t , "Reagan Walks Out of Meeting," i nva r i ab ly someone on my s i d e would s tand up a t a meet ing and say, "What happened i n Santa Monica and why d i d you--?" I found t h a t t h e only way I answered i t was, "I go t mad." Then I would g e t applause, f o r s imply saying that . [ l aughs ]

Sharp: It was r e a l l y impor tan t f o r you throughout t h e campaign t h a t you were honest w i t h people, wasn't i t ?

Reagan: Yes, yes . You know, I d i d n ' t wan t t o do i t t o b e g i n w i t h . [chuckles ] There wouldn't have been any sense i n doing it. I n o t h e r words, I was no t someone who had decided t h a t t h a t job I wanted more than anything, and t h e r e f o r e t h a t I would mold myself i n whatever way t o g e t t h a t job. No.

Sharp: Well, when you woke up and found yourse l f governor i n November, was i t of some comfort then t h a t t h e campaign had been run t h e way you wanted i t t o be run?

Reagan: Yes, yes ,

Sharp: And so you had a base t o work from?

Reagan: Yes. And by t h a t t ime, I must say, I was eager t o d e a l w i t h t h e th ings t h a t up t o then I'd only been t a l k i n g about. I a l s o have t o say t h a t i t wasn't t oo long a f t e r t h a t Nancy and I looked a t each o the r and s a i d t h a t t h i s made anything e l s e we'd ever done i n our l i v e s seem d u l l a s dishwater . [ l aughs] It was t h e most persona l ly f u l f i l l i n g experience I've ever had, Some n i g h t s you come home f e e l i n g t e n f e e t t a l l .

Sharp: Thank you.

Reagan: Thank m.

Sharp: I ' m happy t h a t you had t h e t ime, and t h a t you would be a s candid a s you have been i n t a l k i n g t o me because--.

Voice: How're you doing?

Sharp: [ h a s t i l y ] I ' m leaving, I ' m leaving. [ l augh te r ]

I1 THE TRANSITION

[ ~ n t e r v i e w 2 : June 25, 19791 #I!

Ear ly S t a f f i n g and Dilemmas

Sharp: We're t a l k i n g about t h e t r a n s i t i o n per iod , j u s t a f t e r you became governor i n November of 1966. It must have been a rough t ime f o r you.

Reagan: Oh [ laughs] yes! Campaigning was one thing. I know we took a s u i t e a t t h e Ambassador Hote l [ w i t h ] some of t h e people who a r e here now b u t were w i t h t h e campaign. We began t h e bus ines s of t r y i n g t o pu t an a d m i n i s t r a t i o n t oge the r , bu t very s h o r t l y we s e t up o f f i c e s i n Sacramento also.

I remember t h e r e were a l o t of s u r p r i s e s because, a s I t o l d you, I guess I thought more about winning the e l e c t i o n than about t h e job t o follow. I remember i t was t h e t i m e of t h e f r e e speech demons t ra t ion t h a t broke ou t a t [UC] Berkeley. And.1 was angry. But I was angry j u s t a s Ronald Reagan, c i t i z en . I went down t o t h e s u i t e a t t h e ho te l . I s a i d , ''You know, I s u r e wish I could t e l l t h e p r e s s something about this." I was j u s t t a l k i n g , and an hour l a t e r they came i n and s a i d , he p re s s conference i s ready.'' [ l aughs] I didn ' t r e a l i z e t h a t any more i f I s a i d something, it would t ake p lace , i t would happen.

Sharp: And a l o t of r eve rbe ra t i on , a s it were. [ l a u g h t e r ]

Reagan: Yes.

Sharp: How d id you t r y t o make t h i s t r a n s i t i o n per iod work for you? [ r a d i o i n t e r f e r e n c e ] What kind of people d i d you want t o have on your governor ' s s t a f f ?

Reagan: Well, it was no t only on t h e s t a f f , bu t i t was i n of t h e appo in t ive p o s i t i o n s I could make. I went t o some of t h e people who had t a lked me i n t o running a f t e r I was e l e c t e d and I s a i d , "Look, I t o l d you a l l I don't want t o go up t h e r e alone. Now, vou know

Reagan: where t h e bodies are. You know where t h e t a l e n t i n C a l i f o r n i a is. I don't want a sc reen ing committee t o s c r een a p p l i c a n t s f o r jobs, I want a r e c r u i t i n g committee,

"I want you t o set up a committee, n o r t h and south, The only t h ing I w i l l t e l l you about t h e requi rements , a s I f e e l them, i s number one, I want people who don't want a job i n government. Number two, I want people who w i l l be t h e f i r s t ones t o t e l l me i f t h e i r job i s unnecessary."

So from then on, our own l i t t l e s t a f f and I was working through them. We r e a l l y were looking f o r t h e kind of people I 've descr ibed, and t h a t ' s what we found, We found what I c a l l t h e premature ly- re t i red succes s fu l people, capable people whose companies had r u l e s about age r e t i r e m e n t and s o for th . A hea l thy mix of them and t h e b r i g h t , young kind of execut ives t h a t w i l l someday be t h e p r e s i d e n t s of t h e i r companies,

I t o l d them also--I knew t h a t t hose young f e l l o w s , pa r t i cu - l a r l y , wouldn't be a b l e t o s t a y a s long a s we might be there. But I s a i d , "I'll t a k e them i f i t ' s o n l y a y e a r o r two, t a k e t h o s e people so t h a t when they go back we ' l l g e t someone t o r e p l a c e them a t t h e same time,"

And, f o r a number of them, i t worked t h a t way. A few of them, however, j u s t go t so c a r r i e d up t h a t they stayed, [ r a d i o i n t e r - f erence]

The companies discovered t h a t when those young people came back t o them, they were so broadened by t h a t government experience they were much more va luab le and, Lord, they were anxious t o cooperate!

Sharp: I read i n t h e Los Anaeles Times t h a t you had chosen M r . A. C. Rube1 t o head a s p e c i a l group t o look f o r people for you.* Why d i d you do t h a t ?

Reagan: Well, he was one of t h e ones t h a t had urged m e t o run and supported me running. Holmes T u t t l e was another one, What they d id was form t h e committee, t h e a c t u a l committee, w i t h t h e i r f r i e n d s up north. They r e a l l y d id t w i s t arms; they'd g e t t h e i r eye on some young guy t h a t they thought could r e a l l y f i l l a c e r t a i n job.

*Los Anueles Times, 13 November 1966.

Sharp: T h i s i s a n o t h e r l i s t which Molly S t u r g e s [ T u t h i l l ] showed u s and I'm n o t s u r e where f rom your f i l e s i t comes.* It's a b i g appo in t - ments commi t tee i n n o r t h e r n C a l i f o r n i a . Leland K a i s e r i s t h e chairman. I g u e s s M r . Rubel was t h e o v e r a l l cha i rman f o r a l l of t h e s t a t e ?

Reagan: Yes, yes .

Sharp: Who a r e a l l o f t h e s e peop le then? For i n s t a n c e , Roger Chandler. Is h e f rom t h e LA. Times?

Reagan: He m i g h t be of t h a t f a m i l y , a l t h o u g h they n e v e r had t o do w i t h t h e runn ing of t h e Times, b u t of t h e o r i g i n a l Chandler fami ly .

J a c k [ J a q u e l i n ] Hume, businessman i n San Francisco--he was a b i g s u p p o r t e r - - s t i l l is.

Tom Reed, then, came w i t h u s f o r a w h i l e and t h e n h e had t o l e a v e , and o t h e r rep lacements .

Sharp: I t h i n k h e was your appo in tments secretary.**

But was t h i s p robab ly t h e m a j o r group who looked f o r p e o p l e f o r you?

Reagan: I n n o r t h e r n C a l i f o r n i a , yes.

Sharp: Did you a lways p l a c e t h e pe rson who, say , M r . Rubel came up w i t h ? O r s e n t you?

Reagan: No, a g r e a t many t i m e s t h e commi t tee came. i n w i t h more t h a n one s e l d c t i o n . Then we, w i t h Tom Reed and my own i n t e r v i e w i n g and s o f o r t h , would make t h e f i n a l s e l e c t i o n .

Sharp:. Did you have a l i s t of t h e e x e c u t i v e depar tment heads t h a t you knew you needed and a l i s t of t h e o t h e r jobs?

Reagan: They g i v e you a l i s t of abou t 1200 v a c a n c i e s t o be f i l l e d . They ranged a l l t h e way f rom p e r s o n a l s t a f f and c a b i n e t members down t o depar tment heads and s o - fo r th . Now, what we t r i e d t o do was f i l l

*This 1 is t was among t h e r e s e a r c h m a t e r i a l s cover ing Reagan's t r a n s i t i o n p e r i o d f rom November 1966 th rough 1967, a v a i l a b l e a t t h e Hoover I n s t i t u t i o n .

**Tom Reed was Reagan's appo in tments a s s i s t a n t between 23 February and 11 A p r i l 1967.

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan:

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan :

t h e t o p s p o t s f i r s t and then involve our own cab ine t o f f i c e r s i n helping i n t h e s e l e c t i o n of t h e i r department heads. I n o t h e r words, when a man agreed t o be one of t h e cab ine t members, I never t r i e d t o f o r c e someone on them and say, "Well, t h i s i s your ass i s tan t . "

You would choose some of t h e head people f i r s t ? They might g e t t o help choose people who were going t o work f o r you?

That's r i gh t . Some of them would come i n w i t h s p e c i f i c recommenda t ions of someone they wanted, and we picked them.

Was i t a problem t h a t you hadn't been governor before , s o you d idn ' t have an a d m i n i s t r a t i v e s t a f f a l ready b u i l t i n t o t h e s t a t e government?

I suppose t h a t someone t h a t had he ld a pub l i c o f f i c e be fo re would of course have some persona l s t a f f who would go w i t h them, whether they had been a l e g i s l a t o r o r a congressman, something of t h a t kind. But i n my case, no, I had t o s t a r t from s c r a t c h , , and of course t h i s l i s t shows h e r e t h a t I s t a r t e d w i t h some of t h e people w i t h whom I'd g o t t e n acquainted. For example, Kathy Davis was B i l l Roberts 's secre ta ry . She became my s e c r e t a r y till she had t o l eave shor t ly . When she had t o leave, t h e r e was a n i n t e r i m one f o r a s h o r t t ime, but then B i l l [ ~ i l l i a m P.] Clark s a i d , "There's on ly one g a l i n t h e o f f i c e t h a t should be your s ec re t a ry , " and i t was t h e one he had [Helene von Damm]. He discovered h e r worth by having h e r a s h i s own.

So it was s o r t of a word-of-mouth arrangement t h a t people g e t recommended t o you and you t r u s t t h e i r judgment. You have t o t r u s t t h e i r judgment on i t ?

Yes.

Many of t h e campaign people, f o r i n s t ance Vern [Vernon L.] Sturgeon and P h i l [ P h i l i p M.] B a t t a g l i a and some of t h e o t h e r top people, came from your campaign s t a f f i n t o your governor 's s t a f f . Was i t e a s i e r f o r you then i n t h a t you were a t l a s t see ing some f a m i l i a r faces around t h e governor 's o f f i c e ?

Oh, yes. you'd had an opportunity--you know, . i n t h e f i r i n g l ine-- t o g e t t o know some of t h e s e people. Now, many of them, of course, wh i l e they have helped i n campaigning they were no t t h a t close. You know t h e campaign spread ou t over t h e whole s t a t e . But you g e t a read-back on them.

Now, Vern Sturgeon had been a [ s t a t e ] s ena to r and s o we brought him i n a s t h e l e g i s l a t i v e l i a i son . He was no t on ly pe r sona l ly acquainted w i t h t h e people u p s t a i r s but knew t h e government.

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan:

Sharp :

Reagan:

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan :

During t h a t i n t e r i m per iod a l s o , t h e r e was a n assemblyman who was a long-time ve teran , Charles Conrad. And i n t h a t i n t e r i m period, I ' met w i t h him many t imes f o r lonn se s s ions where he j u s t f i l l e d me i n on t h e Sacramento t r a d i t i o n s , t h e th ings t h a t a r e t h e p i t f a l l s of a governor and a l e g i s l a t u r e , a l l t h e t h ings t h a t I would have had no way of having any idea about. And t h e t r a d i t i o n a l th ings t h a t you were supposed t o do, and should do, and so fo r th .

Oh, he sounds p r e t t y helpful .

Yes, very he lp fu l .

Had you known him before?

Yes, because be l i eve i t o r not, he'd been an a c t o r i n t h e p i c t u r e business. A cha rac t e r ac tor .

I n our l a s t in te rv iew, you remarked t o me t h a t Hale Champion, who was the outgoing f i n a n c e d i r e c t o r , was not a t a l l h e l p f u l i n a s s i s t i n g you and your s t a f f t ake over t h e r e i n s of t h e Finance Department. Was t h a t t y p i c a l of Governor Brown?

I must say, t h e r e wasn't much i n t h e l i n e of cooperation. We had campaigned on t h e f i n a n c i a l shortcomings of C a l i f o r n i a and y e t didn ' t r e a l l y know how bad t h e s i t u a t i o n was u n t i l I a c t u a l l y g o t i n o f f i ce . But one of t h e f i r s t warnings came when one of o u r men went over t o d i scuss w i t h Hale Champion because everyone had t o l d me t h a t t h e most important p o s i t i o n t o f i l l was your f i n a n c e d i r e c t o r .

He came back and h i s b r i e f i n g had been, Hale Champion sa id , 1' We're spending $1 m i l l i o n a day more than we're t ak ing in. I 've got a g o l f date. Good lucL" [ l augh te r ]

What d i d you do then?

We were beginning t o f i n d out t h a t we had r e a l f i n a n c i a l problems.

How d id you handle t h a t kind of roadblock?

When I g o t i n o f f i c e then, I must say those f i r s t days were very dreary , very dark. F i r s t of a l l , January and February i n Sacramento a r e dreary and dul l . Those damn t u l e . f o g s ! And Nancy had t o s t a y down till the semes ter ended,. w i t h ' our son [Ronald Reagan, ~r.1. So I was kind of commuting on weekends o r she would commute up t h e r e on weekends. I was over i n t h a t old mansion. You d i d n ' t l i k e t h a t , I understand.

Oh, t h a t was t h e most dreary , d i smal p l ace i n t h e world. It was just--to go home from t h e o f f i c e t o that--alone you know--that o ld beat-up t r a p .

Reagan: A t t h e same t ime, we were uncovering more and more of o u r problems. It j u s t seemed l i k e every day t h a t I came i n t o t h e o f f i c e , a lmost immediately t h e r e was someone s tanding i n f r o n t of my desk saying, "We've g o t a problem."

I go t so t h e t empta t ion was almost i r r e s i s t i b l e t o look over my shoulder--.

The Task Force Idea

Reagan: That was when we went f o r t h e t a s k f o r c e idea , bu t a l s o did th ings l i k e I knew it would look p o l i t i c a l t o - t r y and exp la in t o people. F i r s t qf a l l , here was I, t h e b ig conserva t ive who t a l k e d of c u t t i n g the c o s t of government, c u t t i n g taxes , faced w i t h t h e realization t h a t t h e r e was no way out except t o r a i s e taxes.

You i n h e r i t t h e budget i n t h e middle of t h e year ; s i x months has a l ready been spent. The c o n s t i t u t i o n says you must have a balanced budget. So I asked t h r e e leading a u d i t i n g f i r m s , accountant f i rms , i n Cal i fornia--Price Waterhouse and a couple of others--to come i n and t ake a look a t t h e whole s i t u a t i o n and then put them on t e l e v i s i o n w i t h me. I introduced them, and they t o l d t h e people of C a l i f o r n i a what t h e f i n a n c i a l s i t u a t i o n was.

Sharp: ' What s o r t of impact d id you th ink t h a t would have?

Reagan: F i r s t of a l l , no one could accuse them of playing p o l i t i c s . These gentlemen stood up and sa id , "This i s what we've learned and t h i s i s t h e s i t u a t i o n . " I, t h e n , c o u l d s t a n d up and s a y , "Okay, I ' m t h e guy t h a t s a id i t cos t too much. I ' m t h e guy t h a t s a i d government should be l e s s expensive. I 'm t h e one who has t o a s k f o r a t a x increase."

I a l s o appointed a t a s k f o r c e t o come up w i t h a proposal t o meet our needs. That's what l ed then t o t h e whole idea of t a s k forces. A t t h e f i r s t governors' conference, Republican governors' conference, I was s t i l l a governor-elect. I hadn't even been sworn in. I went. It was over i n Colorado Springs. The governors-elect were invi ted.

I had an oppor tuni ty t h e r e t o t a l k t o o the r governors. One of them was J i m Rhodes of Ohio. [ s p e l l s out name] He t o l d me about his use of some t a s k fo rces , c i t i z e n s ' t a s k fo rces , and t h e name of a management consu l t an t f i r m i n Chicago t h a t he had used i n connection w i t h it. So I came back w i t h our guys. We s a t down and we, f i r s t of a l l , s e n t f o r t h e man i n Chicago, t h a t consul tan t f i rm , and he came out.

Sharp : What was t h e name of t h a t f i r m ? Do you remember?

Reagan: I b e t Molly [ s t u r g e s T u t h i l l ] can t e l l you.

Anyway, I then g o t a ho ld of my same kind of people l i k e [ ~ o l m e s ] T u t t l e and [LC.] Rube1 and a l l of them and t o l d them what I wanted. And from them, aga in knowing who t h e r i g h t people were, t o pu t t oge the r what l i t e r a l l y amounted t o t h e t op 1eade r sh ip .o f t h e s t a t e of California--from bus iness , i ndus t ry , t h e professions. [ d i s c u s s i o n about an a i r p l a n e f l y i n g below]

Anyway, w e had a luncheon, no r th and south, and i n each one of t h e s e luncheons were t h e people t h a t , a s I s t a r t e d t o say, i f a bomb had h i t t hose bu i ld ings , C a l i f o r n i a was o u t of business. We had M r . [war ren] King w i t h us. And we o u t l i n e d what we wanted, t h a t we wanted them--not t h e i r a s s i s t a n t s , b u t them--to pu t t o g e t h e r ( t h e consu l t an t f i r m would h e l p w i t h t h i s on t h e b a s i s of t h e i r e x p e r t i s e and bus iness knowledge) t a s k f o r c e s and t o go i n t o s i x t y - four agenc ies and departments of s t a t e government [and] come back t o us w i t h recommendations of how modern bus iness p r a c t i c e s could be pu t t o work t o make government more e f f i c i e n t , more economical. We s a i d i t would, w i t h King's he lp , be more organized. P a r t of them would be on t h e execut ive committee t o c o r r e l a t e a l l of th i s .

I t o l d them, "You s a t around t h e l ocke r room t a l k i n g about i t f o r years. Here's your chance."

Well, I want t o t e l l you they became a s e n t h u s i a s t i c a s k i d s w i t h .a new toy. Maybe some of them thought they would j u s t be names on a le t te rhead . I don't t h i n k t h a t any of them ever r e a l i z e d what they were g e t t i n g into. Some two hundred and f i f t y [people] .

See, we couldn't u se a l l of them because a s i t developed some of those men weren't i n f i e l d s t h a t would be appropr ia te . But t hey then helped, e i t h e r i n t h e execut ive committee, o r they then con t r i - buted money t o pay f o r the consu l t an t so t h i s whole t h ing c o s t t h e government and t h e taxpayers nothing. They gave, two hundred and f i f t y i nd iv idua l s , an average of 2 hundred seventeen days f u l l - t ime, away from t h e i r own occupat ions and professions.

They brought back, and t h e execut ive committee had t o pu t i t i n p r i n t e d form, e igh teen hundred s p e c i f i c recommendations. We implemented be fo re we were through more than s i x t e e n hundred of those recommendations because then we c r ea t ed a t a sk f o r c e of our own w i t h i n government t o s t a r t implementing.

Things l i k e , f o r example, we'd have a t a s k f o r c e of h o t e l men. The top men of t he business. They would go i n t o our p r i sons and h o s p i t a l s , and look a t t h e housekeeping chores. "How d i d you buy your food?" The k i tchen , what was done?

Reagan: People who were exper t i n f leet-buying of automobiles. We found t h a t t he s t a t e of C a l i f o r n i a had no p l a n s t o buy. Any department would j u s t go ou t and buy what i t wanted to , t r a d e i n what i t wanted to, no compet i t ive bidding. People would buy whatever they wanted to , whatever they wanted t o have. We s e t up a p lan t h a t was so effec- t i v e due t o t h e i r recommendations t h a t we o f fe red it i n t h e c i t i e s and count ies , and many took us up on i t , t h a t when they had t o buy automobiles, they'd buy them through us. Our o u t f i t would do it f o r them. This probably was t h e most e f f e c t i v e th ing t h a t led t o the--.

One of t h e c i t i z e n t a sk f o r c e s came i n and t o l d me t h e r e was a con t rac t t o b u i l d a bu i ld ing f o r $10 mi l l ion . They had surveyed the proposed bui ld ing space and how many square f e e t per person was proposed and found i t t o t a l l y unacceptable. We saved the $10 m i l l i o n because I didn ' t s i g n t h e con t rac t I had inherited."

From then on, t he ongoing savings. hat's what l ed t o us r e a l l y g e t t i n g ou t of the hole and beginning t o be a b l e t o pay back t o t h e people. As f a s t a s we could accumulate a su rp lus , we'd g i v e it t o them a s a one-time t a x rebate.

Sharp: Were the f i n a n c i a l problems probably the biggest problems t h a t you thought you had t o f a c e when you became governor?

Reagan: Oh, yes, yes. As I say, i t was i n v i o l a t i o n of the cons t i t u t ion . They had a l ready put t h e s t a t e i n debt i n t h a t f i r s t s i x months. Yet we had to , a t t he same time, when you come i n t o o f f i c e , your f i r s t job i s you have t o put toge ther a new budget--the governor's budget-- t o be submit ted i n those f i r s t few months t h a t ~ o u ' r e i n of f ice .

"Like a Board of Direc tors"

Sharp: The man who you se l ec t ed a s f i r s t f inance d i r e c t o r was Gordon Paul Smith.

Reagan: Yes.

Sharp: And before you s e l e c t e d him you went through a long l i s t of people, including Alan Post, Leland Kaiser, and Joe Shell. Those were some of the people whom you considered f o r t h e p o s i t i o n of f inance d i r ec to r . How did you decide on Gordon Paul Smith? Was he recommended t o you by anyone?

*This paragraph was added during M r . Reagan's review of the t r a n s c r i p t .

Reagan: Yes. And a number of f i r m s here. He was w i t h a f i r m t h a t d i d bus iness consu l t i ng work; f o r example, bus iness ana lys i s . Like he lp ing dec ide where a s tadium would be b u i l t , t h a t s o r t of t h ing , l i k e Stanford [ ~ e s e a r c h l I n s t i t u t e does--not t h e Hoover I n s t i t u t i o n of Stanford--and h ighly recommended t o u s t h a t h e r e was a young man, w i t h a fami ly , c h i l d r e n t o be educated some day, earn ing $90,000 a year , who was w i l l i n g t o t a k e a $35,000-a-year job.

Obviously, he was one t h a t could n o t s t a y forever . So s h o r t l y we changed and then we g o t Cap [ ~ a s ~ a r ] Weinberger. Cap--this i s r e a l l y someone and an unusual man. It i s a b s o l u t e l y t r u e when Cap Weinberger was only f o u r t e e n y e a r s o ld , he used t o read t h e C o n ~ r e s s i o n a l Record f o r pleasure. Cap has a mind, and a mind f o r f i nance ; I 've never seen anything l i k e it.

He would s i t up t h e r e i n those committee hear ings w i t h t h e l e g i s l a t u r e when they were t r y i n g t o r e a l l y g e t at him about t h e budget. Now t h e budget weighs t e n and a ha l f pounds--this s t u f f ' s big. [chuckles ] They would throw ques t ions a t him about something. Vern Sturgeon would come downsta i r s and say t o me, "I don't b e l i e v e it." See , I c o u l d n ' t b e up t h e r e t o s e e t h i s , b u t I ' d h a v e t o g e t i t secondhand.

Vern would say Cap would s i t t h e r e and somebody would t r y t o n a i l Cap on some f i g u r e o r something about t h i s o r tha t . And wi thout looking a t any no te s he would say, "Well, i f you look a t page 1,036, you w i l l f i n d about half-way down--" Hel l , I d idn ' t t h ink anyone ever read t h e budget, l e t a lone r e c i t e d it! [ laughs]

Sharp: Nobody opens t h a t book i n t h e l i b r a r y !

Reagan: he^ would. ~ h e y ' d look. Oh, yes--[laughingly] They had no more ques t i ons !

Sharp: He was r e a l l y h e l p f u l t o you--

Reagan: Oh, yes.

Sharp: -In expla in ing what budget changes needed t o be made, and he was p r e t t y much on your s i d e i n s t r a i g h t e n i n g ou t t h e budget and trimming i t ?

Reagan: Oh, yes, Cap was t h e one. He was i n f o r t h a t f i r s t r e a l s lugging match when we l i t e r a l l y had t o say t o everyone i n government, 'hiou're no t going t o g e t t h e increases." You know a l l t h e departments a t t h e Un ive r s i t y [of ~ a l i f o r n i a ] , t h a t ' s where we f i r s t g o t i n t h e doghouse w i t h t h e university--when they submi t ted a 1 1 t h e i r budgets f o r t h e f i r s t budget t h a t we would have t o make. We had t o say t o them, "No way, t h e money's j u s t no t there."

Sharp: I remember a n e d i t o r i a l t h a t was f a i r l y c r i t i c a l of you i n your a t t a c k i n g t h e u n i v e r s i t y . It was i n t h e L.A. Times on January 6 t h , r i g h t a t t h e inaugurat ion. Th is a r t i c l e i s c r i t i c a l of your a t t e m p t i n g t o c u t t h e u n i v e r s i t y and s t a t e c o l l e g e budget and t h e n r a i s e t h e t u i t i o n . Was t h i s your a t t e m p t t o answer t h e budget problem?

Reagan: Here's what we did. Th is i s what we had t o say, by t h i s t i m e we knew t h e t r u th . Of course , t h e Times was n o t ve ry suppo r t i ve of

of t h e s e t h i n g s I wanted t o do-I d idn ' t s ay this--but what we had been t a l k i n g about was, could we maybe g e t a n across-the-board cut. But what they [ t h e L.A. Times] a l s o d i s t o r t e d , and t h e u n i v e r s i t y d i s t o r t e d , was [ t h a t ] t h e c u t was goJ i n t h e e x i s t i n g budget. It was i n t h e r eques t ed budget.

Now, t h e u n i v e r s i t y d idn ' t p l ay f a i r . They were very. s u c c e s s f u l i n convincing t h e s t u d e n t body t h a t 1 wanted t o c u t and t h e r e f o r e t h e r e wouldn't be a s much money a s t h e r e was l a s t year. Cap asked them once--asked them [ t o make] a r e d u c t i o n i n what they had asked f o r over and above what t h e p rev ious year ' s budget had been.

Sharp: So you looked p r e t t y much l i k e a v i l l a i n ?

Reagan: Oh, yes. There a r e s t i l l people who were s t u d e n t s t hen who came around, ''You c u t t h e u n i v e r s i t y ' s budget." I say, "Never once. I have c u t t h e a d d i t i o n a l funds t hey a s k e d ' f o r , bu t n o t t h e e x i s t i n g budget .

Every yea r they g o t a l i t t l e more than they'd g o t t e n t h e yea r before .

Sharp: Anybody who s ays t h a t t hey ' r e going t o t r i m a budget i s n ' t going t o be ve ry popula r w i t h most of t h e people.

Reagan: T h a t ' s r i g h t .

Sharp: ~ e t ' s j u s t go back and t a l k a l i t t l e b i t about t h e g e n e r a l problem of appointments again. Most campaigns invo lve p r e t t y b ig networks of people. Genera l ly a f t e r a campaign i s ove r and i t ' s been s u c c e s s f u l , t h e r e ' s a whole long l i n e of people who queue up and say, "Well, I t h i n k I deserve a p o l i t i c a l appointment. I de se rve t h a t k ind of reward."

How d i d you handle t h a t problem?

Reagan: This is where t h a t commit tee came in. I j u s t made it p l a i n , and I made it p l a i n a l l th iough t h e campaigning, t h a t we would seek t h e b e s t and p o l i t i c s would have no th ing t o do w i t h government, j u s t a s I promised I would t a k e t h e appointment of judges o u t of p o l i t i c s . Now a t t h a t t i m e I advocated a n adopt ion of something s i m i l a r t o

Reagan: t h e Missour i Plan. This i s a p l a n where you a c t u a l l y l e g a l l y t a k e it out of p o l i t i c s , where you have a system of sc reen ing of p o s s i b l e judges and then l i t e r a l l y choose t he one r a t e d b e s t by t h e s e va r ious sc reen ing systems.

The l e g i s l a t u r e wouldn't go f o r it. I asked f o r t h a t i m m e - d i a t e ly . I found o u t a s t h e y e a r s went on why they d idn ' t want it. There a r e too many l e g i s l a t o r s who want t o come around and t r a d e a v o t e f o r a j u d i c i a l appointment. When they wouldn't do it, I s a i d , "Okay, I'll do i t voluntar i ly ." So I s e t up--= s e t up--a committee of laymen i n each j u d i c i a l d i s t r i c t , a committee of lawyers , f e l l o w lawyers of any lawyer who might want t o become a judge; a committee of t h e j ud i c i a ry , and then t h e S t a t e Bar [of C a l i f o r n i a ] Board of Governors.

None of t h e s e commit tees worked together . They d idn ' t even know who each o t h e r were. They were separa te , Every p o s s i b l e name f o r a judgeship, even i f they wanted t o vo lun tee r themselves , o r t h a t were suggested f o r appointment, were submi t ted t o t h e s e committees- This commit tee screened them, t h e s e laymen, j u s t t h e i r f e l l o w c i t i z e n s , t h i s committee of f e l l o w lawyers , t h i s one of judges, and f i n a l l y t h e s t a t e b a r board.

When it came t o m e f i n a l l y , i t was on a r a t i n g sheet. It was t h e name, w i t h columns behind it--and each column, each committee. Behind o r underneath each commit tee would be NQ a s n o t q u a l i f i e d , Q a s q u a l i f i e d , W Q a s we l l -qua l i f i ed , EWQ a s t h e h ighes t - -except iona l ly wel l -qua l i f ied . And, from t h a t l i s t , we picked our judges:

Reagan: W e picked people f o r every pos i t ion . Now, I knew t h e r e were people, and I d idn ' t r u l e them o u t i f they could pass--you know, t h e o the r committee would s e l e c t them--but I s a i d we were going t o t r y t o g e t t he b e s t and g e t people t h a t didn ' t r e a l l y want jobs i n government, and t h a t ' s what we got.

Most of them had t o r e a l l y be persuaded. Now, some of t he se [were] e a r l y r e t i r e d , These were men who were darn succes s fu l i n t h e i r l ives . Once presen ted t h e cha l lenge--you know, they weren't ready t o r e t i r e anyway--Good Lord! I watched them work s i x t e e n hours a day and grow younger. They r e a l l y brought t h e most enthusiasm.

Sharp: According t o one of t h e sources t h a t I looked a t , t h i s e a r l y group of people [ read ing from l i s t ] I k e Livermore, Gordon Luce, Spencer Wil l iams, P h i l B a t t a g l i a , Lyn Nofziger, B i l l Clark, were your execu t ive d i r e c t o r s a s i t were. Why d i d you choose t h i s group of people--?

Reagan: Well, t h a t ' s no t rea l ly - -

Sharp: That 's no t t h e r i g h t word?

Reagan: No, t h a t ' s n o t e x a c t l y t h e way t o c a l l it. I k e [Norman B.] Liver- more was ou r s e c r e t a r y f o r n a t u r a l r e s o u r c e s [Resources Agency]. Gordon Luce came from a sav ings and loan, s e c r e t a r y f o r Bus iness and T ranspo r t a t i on , which meant t h e whole highway depar tment and a l l of t h a t .

Spence W i l l i a m s had been t h e candida te , you know. He was t h e on ly one t h a t d idn ' t win. But on t h e campaign, Spence had t a l k e d t o me many t imes. Now, h e r e was a man running f o r a t t o r n e y g e n e r a l , bu t t a l k i n g about w e l f a r e and t h e bugs becausehe ' d been i n county government. So we thought , by g o l l y , we'd g e t him i n t h e r e [ a s s e c r e t a r y f o r t h e Hea l th and Wel fa re Agency], and t h a t ' s what t h e commit tee thought about it.

P h i l [ ~ a t t a g l i a l had been campaign chairman and t h e n & had t o g e t back t o h i s p r i v a t e l i f e .

Lyn Nofziger had been a member of t h e c a p i t o l p r e s s corps i n Washington and Lyn became t h e p r e s s secretary."

B i l l C la rk w a s i n t h e l e g a l depar tment and succeeded P h i l when he l e f t , and became t h e execu t i ve s e c r e t a r y . [August 19671

But no, they were no t any th ing i n t h e n a t u r e of an execu t i ve committee. We a l s o ope ra t ed i n a d i f f e r e n t way, I t h ink , t han most governments had. It was l i k e a board of d i r e c t o r s operat ion. We had cab ine t mee t ings about t h r e e t i m e s a week and t h e i s s u e s would come b e f o r e t h e cab ine t , and t h e c a b i n e t would i nc lude c o n s t i t u t i o n a l o f f i c e r s l i k e Ivy Baker P r i e s t . Each of t h e s e people [came] i f they wanted, [ b u t ] sometimes t h e i r d u t i e s would keep them from a t t end ing . And TQJ t op execu t i ve s t a f f . SO i t was s t a f f , c ab ine t , and t h e s e people around t h e t ab le .

A t f i r s t , none of them [were] exper ienced i n government, t o speak o f , bu t s t i l l they heard enough t o t h i n k t h a t i f a problem d e a l t w i t h one c a b i n e t o f f i c e r , w e l l , t h e o t h e r s shouldn ' t i n t e r f e r e . That wasn' t what I wanted.

I f i n a l l y g o t them convinced t h a t what I wanted was l i k e a board of d i r e c t o r s , w i t h on ly one d i f f e r e n c e , of course. They d idn ' t vote. I n o t h e r words t h e d e c i s i o n had t o be made by me, I knew tha t .

*Nofziger was d i r e c t o r of communications January 1967 t o October 1968.

Sharp: You r e a l l y thought you needed a l o t of h e l p , then?

Reagan: Oh, su re ! That 's a b i g $10 b i l l i o n b u s i n e s s w i t h t h e a f f a i r s of twenty-two m i l l i o n people. But i t worked t h a t way because what would happen i s , now, t h e d i s c u s s i o n would s t a r t . Once I g o t them where they would a l l j o i n in--and even d e b a t e and a r g u e w i t h each o t h e r abou t something- le t ' s say maybe i t ' s a p i e c e of l e g i s l a t i o n . Do we want t o s u p p o r t i t o r do we want t o k i l l i t ? Do we want t o say no? It would a f f e c t maybe one o r two of t h e c a b i n e t depar tments , b u t a l l of them would g e t o n it and s ta r t hammering.

Now, I'm s i t t i n g up a t t h e head of- t h e t a b l e and I ' m h e a r i n g a l l t h i s d i s c u s s i o n , and I ' ve done my own s t u d y i n g and r e a d i n g on it too , and I somet imes j o i n i n t h e d i s c u s s i o n . F i n a l l y , when I ' ve r e a l l y heard enough t h a t I know what my d e c i s i o n is, I 'd i n t e r r u p t and say, "Well, he re ' s what we're go ing t o do,'' boom, and t e l l them. It i f didn' t--sometimes t h e c o n t r o v e r s y would go and I would never h e a r enough t o convince me. It was p r e t t y even. I 'd say, ' lFellows, we've g o t t o come back tomorrow. I haven ' t hea rd enough t o make a decision." The funny t h i n g i s by t h e t i m e tomorrow [ r a d i o i n t e r f e r e n c e ] came and o v e r n i g h t t h e y [had] thought a b o u t it, they'd say, "You know, I t h i n k [ s o and s o l was r i g h t . . I was wrong." And i t would a l l come toge ther .

Sharp: What happened i f you d idn ' t ag ree? I f you couldn ' t come t o a d e c i s i o n , a n a m i c a b l e d e c i s i o n , abou t a c e r t a i n m a t t e r ?

Reagan: Oh, w e l l , t h e r e were many t i m e s when I f i n a l l y made t h e d e c i s i o n , they were s t i l l advoca t ing t h e o t h e r way. One o t h e r t h i n g I d i d w i t h them--and I don' t know i f I t o l d you t h i s i n t h e o t h e r debate--out of l o y a l t y t o me, some of t h e s e peop le would t r y t o b r i n g up what t h e y thought were t h e p o l i t i c a l r a m i f i c a t i o n s and I would s t o p them. A s I s a i d t o them, "Look, I don' t want t o h e a r it. No m a t t e r how hones t you a r e , i f you s e e someone's c a r d when '

you're p l a y i n g c a r d s , you can ' t t a k e i t o u t o f your mind what t h a t c a r d is.'' So I s a i d , "I d o n ' t w a n t t o h e a r them. So we w i l l n e v e r d i s c u s s a n i s s u e o n t h e b a s i s of p o l i t i c a l r a m i f i c a t i o n s . We w i l l o n l y d i s c u s s it on, i s it o r i s i t n o t good f o r t h e peop le of C a l i f o r n i a ? "

That was a campaign p romise I made t o myse l f , t h a t I would make--the o n l y way I f e l t t h a t I could go t o s l e e p a t n i g h t i s i f I made every d e c i s i o n on t h e b a s i s of what I h o n e s t l y b e l i e v e d was r i g h t o r wrong, and n o t o n how i t migh t a f f e c t v o t e s sometime down t h e road. So f o r e i g h t y e a r s t h a t ' s t h e way we d i d it.

Sharp: Can you p i c k o u t of t h e s e names t h o s e on whom you r e l i e d f o r adv ice , then?

Reagan: You would have t o add i n here t h e o the r cabine t secre ta r ies - -

Sharp : Like Dirk Eldredge?"

Reagan: He was an a s s i s t a n t . Yes, he would have been i n t he re , and l a t e r Mike Deaver was i n t h a t spot. E a r l Coke was a s e c r e t a r y of Agr i cu l tu re and Services.

Sharp: Right. So Mike Deaver and E a r l Coke both became very important adv i so r s t o you?

Reagan: Mike Deaver came i n t o t h e government and was on our s t a f f . Then he became Ed Meese's a s s i s t a n t when Ed Meese succeeded B i l l Clark,

Sharp: I n our l a s t i n t e rv i ew, you r e a l l y s t r u c k me a s somebody who l i ked t o do h i s own work. When you became governor, t h e r e was a l o t of your own work you couldn't & any more; you had t o s t a r t de l ega t ing a u t h o r i t y .

Reagan: Yes.

Sharp: Did t h a t bother you?

Reagan: No, because I be l i eve i n that . As a m a t t e r of f a c t , when you s t a r t t a l k i n g t o some of those people, I'll j u s t be t you r i g h t now--1'11 predict-- that one of t h e th ings they w i l l mention is t h a t I de lega ted and didn ' t look over t h e i r shoulders a l l of t he time.

Sharp: That was p r e t t y much my next q u e s t i o n When you delegated a u t h o r i t y t o someone, gave them a c e r t a i n job t o do, d id you worry about i t ? Worry about t h e i r competency o r anything e l s e ?

Reagan: No. I won't go i n t o d e t a i l about t h e ones, bu t he re and t h e r e t h e r e were people. You d idn ' t s co re a thousand. You got some people t h a t g radua l ly you began t o f e e l could be improved upon. Then you made changes when t h a t happened. But no, you can't l e t yourse l f worry. You go t o bed every n igh t w i t h t h e knowledge t h a t it 's j u s t l i k e i n t h e campaign. I g o t used t o that .

You go t o bed w i t h the knowledge t h a t i t ' s j u s t doing something, whether wel l - in ten t ioned o r de l ibe ra t e ly . You p ick up t h e paper and read you're on a very hot s tove because of something someone did! You j u s t have t o f a c e i t t h a t t ha t ' s when t h e dec i s ion has t o be made by you.

Sharp: So tha t ' s a p a r t of being a governor and having t o de l ega te au tho r i ty . You don't have t o go over everything?

"Eldredge was a s s i s t a n t execut ive s e c r e t a r y i n 1966-67.

Reagan: That's r i gh t . I'll t e l l you what e l s e t h i s system d id f o r me. I don't want t o sound ar rogant o r concei ted, but I have a f e e l i n g t h a t I probably had more f a m i l i a r i t y w i t h a l l of what was going on i n s t a t e government than previous governors because it was a l l done t h e r e around me. Because I was a p a r t of a l l of t h e debate and d i scuss ion of what was going on. Therefore, I wasn't s i t t i n g i n t h e governor's o f f i c e and then i f somebody asked me a ques t ion about t h e motor v e h i c l e department o r t h e highway p a t r o l o r some- th ing of t h a t kind, t h a t I would have t o say, "Well, you have t o a sk t h e cab ine t member." I was a p a r t of t h e dec i s ions t h a t were being made,

Sharp: Did a l o t of t h a t come because you didn ' t know what you were doing a t t h e beginning, o r maybe made a s p e c i a l e f f o r t t o g e t t h e r e and do t h e b a t t i n g p r a c t i c e ?

Reagan: Oh, sure! And of course, from t h e s tandpoin t of t h e t a sk fo rces , i t was a n educat ion t o me--you know, i f you j u s t come in--say I had succeeded a Republican governor and th ings were i n p r e t t y much order , and you j u s t kind of take up where he l e f t off. It wouldn't have been t h e same a s coming i n faced w i t h an a c t u a l c r i s i s , t h a t you had t o s t a r t looking a t every poin t saying, "What can we save?" 11 Is t h i s important , o r i s n ' t i t ? "

You learned a n awful l o t i n a hurry,

Sharp: I ' m sure .

An "All-Consuming" Job

Sharp: I have some more ques t ions about your r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h t h e l e g i s l a t u r e , bu t I want t o s e p a r a t e those f o r a minute, and a sk you j u s t i n genera l , what went on i n s i d e you dur ing these f i r s t months?

Reagan: A s I say, t h e r e were a few months t h e r e i n which, oh, yes, I was very uncomfortable. Because [ t h e r e was] always t h e controversy about every thing. - The cons t an t ly being a t tacked, you know, we're supposed t o so lve t h e problems,

But th ings got be t t e r . F i r s t of a l l , Nancy and our son, Ron, moved t o Sacramento, Then came t h e f ire--or t h e f i r e alarm--that moved us ou t of t h e o l d Governor's Mansion i n t o a b e t t e r home. Tha t I l i k e d .

I only know t h a t t h e r e came a day when t h e t ens ion j u s t l e f t and, don't a sk m e why, i t was j u s t e n t i r e l y d i f f e r e n t and I enjoyed going t o t h e o f f i c e i n s t ead of dreading it, and I knew t h a t ' we had a handle on it. Things could be done,

Sharp: Did you go through a n i n i t i a l p e r i o d where you r e a l l y dreaded going i n t h e r e ? ,

Reagan: Yes, because it seemed l i k e every day was bad news. We were f i n d i n g o u t more and more what was wrong. But I remember, maybe i t was making some d e c i s i o n s t h a t had t o be made. For example, one day, I found o u t t h a t t h e l o b b y i s t s who should have been o n my s i d e , l o b b y i s t s r e p r e s e n t i n g many b u s i n e s s i n t e r e s t s i n C a l i f o r n i a , were u p s t a i r s t r y i n g t o k i l l o u r t a x program t h a t we had t o have because of t h e [budge t d e f i c i t ] and each one, of course , was t r y i n g t o look o u t f o r h i s own i n t e r e s t h e r e and the re .

I c a l l e d a man i n Los Angeles--he i s now deceased-and I t o l d him what was happening. I s a i d , "Who a r e t h e men t h a t I need t o t a l k t o t h a t cou ld t e l l about t h i s , t o t a l k t o abou t what t h e s e l o b b y i s t s a r e doing?" He s a i d , "Give me twenty-four hours."

Twenty-four hours l a t e r he c a l l e d my s e c r e t a r y back w i t h a l i s t o f names and phone numbers. Now, some of t h e s e I caught abroad i n Europe, were o u t of t h e coun t ry , b u t I phoned every one. I t o l d every one of them, I s a i d , "I t h i n k you must know t h a t what I ' m t r y i n g t o do w i l l be good f o r b u s i n e s s and i n d u s t r y i n C a l i f o r n i a . Th i s i s what your l o b b y i s t s a r e doing t o r e p r e s e n t you i n Sacramento."

Without excep t ion , every one of them s a i d t o me, "1'11 t a k e c a r e of it." The n e x t day was one of t h e most f u n days t h a t I e v e r had. Peop le were coming i n , i n c l u d i n g t h e l e g i s l a t i v e guys and a l l of them. They s a i d t h e l o b b y i s t s were wa lk ing through t h e c o r r i d o r s l i k e zombies--i t h'ad never happened. But a l l they knew was they'd g o t t e n a c a l l f rom t h e man on h i g h who j u s t s a i d , "Stop!" And it happened t o a l l of them. They d i d n ' t know q u i t e what had h i t them. [ l a u g h s ]

Sharp: How d i d t h a t make you f e e l ?

Reagan: Oh, boy! [ l a u g h s ] Great! Because f i r s t of a l l t o f i n d o u t t h a t , by g o l l y , t h e r e were peop le t h a t , i f t h e y knew t h e f a c t s , would s t i l l do what was r i g h t . They wouldn't double- ta lk you and s o f o r t h . R igh t t h e r e , even though i t meant i n many i n s t a n c e s t h a t t h e i r t a x e s were going t o be i n c r e a s e d i f t h e y ' r e i n a p a r t i c u l a r b u s i n e s s o r something. To know t h a t t h e s e men, many I d idn ' t know a t a l l - -bu t on my say-so and what I s a i d t o them when I asked them, no t h r e a t s , I j u s t s a i d t h i s i s what t h e y ' r e doing and t h i s i s what I ' m t r y i n g t o do. H e r e ' s why I t h i n k I ' m r i g h t , and h e r e i s why I t h i n k i t ' s necessary . To have t h o s e men j u s t say, "We'll t a k e c a r e of it."

Sharp: .Who was t h e man you c a l l e d i n Los Angeles? I don' t t h i n k I g o t h i s name.

Reagan: Wel l , he's dead now--Asa Call .

Sharp: Was being governor, then, a l o t harder than you thought i t was going t o be?

Reagan: It was more all-consuming than I had thought. I can remember when I was running, saying t o Nancy, "You know, there ' s a governor's o f f i c e down he re i n Los AngelesW--it seemed t o me I was always seeing Pa t Brown's p i c t u r e i n the papers being here, t he re , playing go l f i n Los Angeles someplace.

I didn ' t r e a l i z e t h a t it could be a s completely confining a s it was. Maybe some o t h e r governors do it d i f f e r e n t l y . But r e a l l y , j u s t t o t a l l y involved, tak ing t h e time.

Now, t h e r e was one th ing about t he t ime, you know, t h a t I've been c r i t i c i z e d [ fo r ] . I know because I have seen reference t h a t I was a nine-to-five governor and s o for th . To t h e o f f i c e p r e t t y much, yes, but not always. Sometimes when t h e l e g i s l a t u r e was i n sess ion , we were t h e r e u n t i l four o'clock i n the morning. You couldn't go till they would. Especia l ly wi th a r e a l hot potato.

I was determined t h a t I was going t o t r y t o keep t h e f ami ly l i f e a s normal a s possible. You know, i t ' s easy t o say. Well, you've got t o understand t h a t I used t o run around the o f f i c e s when I'd f ind out t h a t some of t h a t s t a f f of mine were s tay ing i n t h e o f f i c e till e igh t , n ine o'clock a t night. I'd go i n and cu r se them out and t e l l them they had f a m i l i e s ; go home t o t h e i r fami l ies . But I went home wi th a f u l l b r i e f case. I spent my evening a t home. I don't know how long i t ' s been s ince I was a b l e t o read a book, a novel. [ I r ead ] the s t u f f t h a t had t o be read, but I wouldn't s t a y the re i n t h e of f ice . Yes, I went home and had dinner w i t h my wi fe and son and t r i e d t o keep our fami ly l i f e normal.

Rela t ions wi th t h e Leg i s l a tu re

Sharp: Let 's go ahead and t a l k about t h e l e g i s l a t u r e , then.

Often i t ' s t r u e t h a t a governor, when he f i r s t comes i n t o o f f i c e , has what i s ca l l ed a honeymoon period wi th t h e l eg i s l a tu re . How d id you p lan t o use your honeymoon?

Reagan: I didn't th ink of it so much i n those terms, but I th ink I caught some of them by surprise.

It was a d i f f e r e n t Sacramento then than it i s now, too. Like t h e r e were some th ings t h a t a r e missed now. You can c a l l them old- t ime p o l i t i c i a n s i f you want, but t h e r e were some c e r t a i n ceremonial things. The l e g i s l a t u r e went home f o r the summer, came

Reagan: back. And when they came back t h e r e were c e r t a i n t r a d i t i o n a l a f f a i r s t o which you would be invi ted. There would be t h e s e n a t e d inner and t h i s s o r t of thing.

I remember a t t h e very beginning going t o those and they had a l o t of fun. They had a n orches t ra . They'd had a p l ace t o dance-- d a r n good.

I remember J e s s e Unruh in t roduc ing me a t one and I d id t h e r o u t i n e , and they suddenly decided t h a t I d idn ' t have w a r t s [ laughs] and could g e t a long w i t h them.

A complaint t h a t l i n g e r e d a long t ime t h a t some of them had was t h a t I wouldn't j o i n them a t t h e water ing p laces , spend my evenings s i t t i n g around Frank Fat ' s , and s o f o r t h . Well, yes. I had a happy home. I wanted t o go home. But I found t h a t we did have t o work on f i g u r i n g o u t a way--the l e g i s l a t u r e always wants more t ime w i t h t h e governor, more access. They want more acces- s i b i l i t y . Now, I was a c c e s s i b l e b u t when you've g o t 120 l e g i s l a t o r s , and you've g o t a schedule on your desk every day of appointments which you're going t o be doing, [ r a d i o i n t e r f e r e n c e ] you can ' t g e t around t o a l l of them u n l e s s you can see f o r t y people a t once.

So we t r i e d s e v e r a l th ings , d i f f e r e n t ways, and I th ink they f i n a l l y g o t t h e i d e a t h a t I was t r y i n g t o be access ib le . But i t ' s very commonplace and a t f i r s t i t bothered me u n t i l I r e a l i z e d t h a t you'd have t o te lephone them. They loved t o say, "Oh, t h e governor 's g o t a pa lace guard; we can't g e t through." But once you go t a t people and could say t o one of them who wants t o see you, "I can ' t s ee you now [ r a d i o i n t e r f e r e n c e ] bu t can I h e l p you?"

It was always a s t r u g g l e and I suppose a s t r u g g l e a t many leve ls . I t h i n k we got along. I used t o r e g u l a r l y have groups of them, I couldn't t ake a l l of them, bu t groups of them over f o r r e g u l a r d inne r s a t t h e house.

Sharp: At your house?

Reagan: Yes.

Sharp: And you thought t h a t t h a t would be a good way of j u s t g e t t i n g t o know them b e t t e r and--?

Reagan: Yes, it did. You know when they've s a t t h e r e and had c o c k t a i l s w i t h you and s a t around a t d inner , i n your own home, they can ' t q u i t e be a s sharp ly r e s e n t f u l a s they might have been.

Sharp: When they a r e pass ing you t h e po ta toes a t your t a b l e !

Reagan: They can ' t f e e l , "Oh, i t ' s t h a t guy down i n t h e corner o f f i c e again."

Sharp: Had you made any c o n t a c t s w i t h t h e s t a t e s e n a t e [ r a d i o i n t e r f e r e n c e ] o r t h e assembly, let's say, i n 1964 and 1965, so you r e a l l y knew them by t h e t i m e you became governor?

Reagan: Well, I had, i n my campaigning,, wherever I was i n a d i s t r i c t ' where t h e r e was one of our candida tes , I i n s i s t e d on being a p a r t of t h e campaign. [ r a d i o i n t e r f e r e n c e ]

Sharp: I s t h a t why you d id campaigning f o r Eugene Chappie and Gordon Duffy i n t h e f a l l of '651

Reagan: Yes. [ looking o u t window] -

Sharp: Are we g e t t i n g c lo se?

Reagan: A s a m a t t e r of f a c t , we're going r i g h t over t h e one end of it r i g h t over there . [ p o i n t i n g o u t h i s ranch i n Santa Barbara county] Can you s e e t h i s big, yellow-brown patch down t h e r e ? That meadow? Well, t h a t ' s p a r t of t h e ranch. A l l of t h e s e meadows here--all those roads t h a t you s e e winding around there--are on our ranch. These meadows h e r e and the re , and h e r e a r e t h e houses--the barns-- t h e red r o o f s down there. The lake.

Sharp: How many a c r e s do you have?

Reagan: S i x hundred and eighty. Up a t t h i s end, we've j u s t gone over t h a t O M N I s t a t i o n , t h e Gole ta beacon.

Sharp: Is t h i s Santa Barbara County?

Reagan: Santa Barbara ' s s t i l l down there .

Sharp: I guess we're r e a l l y coming down now.

Reagan: Yes. We'll go ou t t o s e a and then t h e a i r p o r t i s down t h e r e j u s t beyond t h e univers i ty ." Then t h e y ' l l probably come i n and go t h e o t h e r way. Well, t h e ranch i s no t exac t ly t h e way t o use up your tape. [ long pause]

Sharp: Let 's d i s c u s s Jack Lindsey and Vern Sturgeon. Jack Lindsey was your l e g i s l a t i v e l i a i s o n t o t he assembly i n 1966-67. How d id he help you meet w i t h va r ious assemblymen t o , say, t a l k about t h e budget problems?

*Universi ty of C a l i f o r n i a , Santa Barbara.

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan:

Sharp :

Reagan:

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan:

Sharp :

Reagan :

Sharp :

Reagan:

Sharp :

Reagan :

He worked under Vern [Sturgeon] and Vern was i n charge of l e g i s l a t i v e r e l a t i o n s . [ r a d i o i n t e r f e r e n c e ] They were t h e ones who would come i n and t e l l you when they had problems t h a t they f e l t were my problems. It would be a b s o l u t e l y necessary t o have a meeting . M r . Lindsey would be w i t h you and t a l k about your ideas f o r t h e budget and then would t a l k with--

And what was going on up t h e r e , yes, and who it might be necessary t o speak t o or--

He would keep you a b r e a s t of t h e s i t u a t i o n ?

Yes.

And then would p l a n f o r you t o meet w i t h key people t h a t he thought it was necessary?

Yes.

Was t h i s a d a i l y k ind of occurrence?

No, no t r e a l l y , because it depended on what was going on on t h e f l o o r , what l e g i s l a t i o n and s o f o r t h t h a t might be involved w i t h what could be c a l l e d t h e governor's program. here's S O much of t h e l e g i s l a t u r e t h a t ' s j u s t kind of r o u t i n e l e g i s l a t i v e business. No, i t wouldn't be t h a t much. It was l i k e f i remen, summoning when t h e r e was some b l aze t o put out.

Did you s t a r t t h i s a s e a r l y a s p o s s i b l e i n t h e a d m i n i s t r a t i o n , say, by February L19671, was t h i s l i a i s o n e s t a b l i s h e d ?

Yes, there ' s where C h a r l i e Conrad came in. I was p r e t t y f a m i l i a r w i th what I was going t o have t o do t o g e t t h a t together.

M r . Conrad sounds l i k e somebody we ought t o t a l k to.

A s a gube rna to r i a l candida te , you probably had t o make a l o t of promises t o convince t h e v o t e r s of C a l i f o r n i a t h a t you were t h e r i g h t person. Did you worry about having t o make good on t h e s e promises once you became governor?

Well, i f you mean t h e kind of promises l i k e t o i nd iv idua l s , o r something--

Right.

Yes. And I went t o work. A s f a r a s I was concerned, I d idn ' t make those promises f o r t h e i dea of g e t t i n g e lec ted . They were t h e t h ings I be l ieved in , t h a t I was going t o do. From t h e very f i r s t ,

Reagan: I t r i e d to . The re wasn ' t any c a s e of s a y i n g , "oh, gee , why d i d I promise tha t ? " No, I t r i e d t o r e s t o r e o rde r on t h e campus. I didn ' t g e t t u i t i o n from t h e un ive r s i t y . I didn ' t g e t t h e s t a t e c o l l e g e commission, [ a i r p l a n e no i se ] which l e f t u s w i t h a k ind of out-of-balance system.

And we did g i v e money back. We did reduce t h e s i z e of government.

Reagan: here were] j u s t scores and scores of u n f i l l e d vacancies on t h e courts . And I b e l i e v e [ f o r ] p o l i t i c a l purposes, because a l o t of people were ou t t h e r e th inking they might g e t t o be judge, they might be most h e l p f u l i n campaigning. And then, when h e [~dmund G. Brown, Sr.] l o s t , t h e period between e l e c t i on and inaugurat ion, he s t a r t e d appoin t ing sco res of i u d ~ e s . Frankly, I got teed of f a t t h i s point. I th ink h e appointed something l i k e eighty-three.

I j u s t one day sa id , "When i s t h e e a r l i e s t I can be sworn in?" It happened t h a t t h e r e was a holiday--New Year's was i n t e r f e r i n g r i g h t around there, They t o l d me the da te , and they sa id one minute af t e r midnight, I sa id , "That's when I'll be sworn ia"

Sharp: Thank you f o r t h e in t e rv i ew and--

Reagan: Oh, l i s ten- - I f e e l l i k e maybe you didn ' t g e t everything you wanted.

Transcr ibers : L e s l i e Goodman-Malamuth Marie Herold

F i n a l Typis t : Serena Herr

TAPE GUIDE -- Ronald Reagan

Interview 1: January 19, 1979 tape 1 , s ide A tape 1 , s ide B

Interview 2: June 25, 1979 tape 2 , s ide A tape 2, s ide B tape 3 , side A tape 3 , s ide B [not recorded]

INDEX - Ronald Reagan

acc rua l accounting, 26 appointments, t o o f f i c e , 29-32,

36-39, 49 anti-war p r o t e s t s , 18

b a l l o t measures, f a i r housing, 10 BASICO, 9-10 B a t t a g l i a , P h i l i p M., 23, 32 , 40 black Americans, 15 , 19, 22, 24,

27-28 Brown, Edmund G. , Sr. ( p a t ) 18, 20,

24, 25 a s governor, 26-27, 33 , 45, 49

budget, s t a t e 36-38, 44 Burghart, Frank1 i n ( ~ u r k y ) 15 bus iness , and govermnent , 3 0, 34-36 ,

44

cab ine t , governor ' s 32, 39-43 C a l i f o r n i a Bar Associat ion, 39 C a l i f o r n i a Republican Assembly, 12 C a l l , Asa, 44 campus u n r e s t , 21-22 Champion, Hale 25, 33 Chandler, Roger, 31 Chris topher , George, 27 C i t i zens f o r Cons t ruc t ive Action, 3 Clark, William P., 32, 40 Coke, Ea r l J., 42 communism, anti-communism, 15-16 Conrad, Char les , 33 , 48 conservat ives . See John Birch

Socie ty

Davis, Kathy, 32 Deaver, Michael K. , 42 deHavilland, O l iv i a , 15 Democratic pa r ty , Democrats, 2, 5 ,

11, 15, 18 , 20, 24

Eldredge, Dirk, 17, 42 e l e c t i o n s , 1962, 15 e l e c t i o n s , 1964, 1-2, 11 e l e c t i o n s , 1966

genera l e l e c t i o n , 14-27, 32, 40, 47

p re l imina r i e s , 3-6 primary, 7-14, 27-28

"Eleventh Commandment, " 2-3, 8 , 11-12, 14, 17, 27

Federa t ion of Republican Women, 2-3 Finance, Department o f , 36-37 Finch, Robert H . , 17 F i r e s tone , Leonard, 14 Frawley , P a t r i c k , 23 Fr iends of Ronald Reagan, 4-5,

10-1 1

General E l e c t r i c Co., 4 , 7 governor, o f f i c e o f , 32, 40, 42, 45 governor 's mansion, Sacramento, 33,

43 Governor's Survey on Eff ic iency and

Cost Control (1967-68), 35-36

Hollywood Independent C i t i zens Com- m i t t e e f o r Ar t s , Sciences, and Profess ions , 15

John Birch Socie ty , 14-16, 20 judges, appointment o f , 38-39, 49

Kaiser , Leland, 31, 36 King, Warren and Assoc., 34-35 k i t chen cab ine t , 24 Klein, Herb, 23 Knott , Walter, 12

labor unions, 25 legislature, legislation, 32-33,

37, 39, 44, 45-48 Lindsey, Jack, 47-48 Livermore, Norman B,, Jr, (~ke), 40 lobbying, lobbyists, 44 Los Angeles Times, 38 - Lute, Gordon C. , 40

McBirnie, W. F,, 23 media, 9, 17, 18, 20, 23, 24-25,

29, 34, 38 Monagan, Robert T., 23 Monson, Arch, 14 Montgomery, Robert, 7 movie/television industry, 2, 5, 7,

15-16, 24 Murphy, George, 7

National Governors Conference (19661, 34

Nofziger, Franklyn C. (LY~), 12, 40

Oakland, campaign rally in, 24

Patrick, William Penn, 27 Pike, Thomas, 17 Post, A. Alan, 36 Price Waterhouse Co., 34 Priest, Ivy Baker, 40 Proposition 14 (1966) fair housing,

10, 19

race relations, 10, 14-15, 19, 22, 24, 27

Reagan, Nancy, 4, 13, 28, 33, 43, 45

Reagan, Ronald before 1964, 14-16 campaigns, 1-2 ; f inanc ing , 5, 11, 16-17, 23 See also elections, 1966 --

as governor, 15, 33-34, 40-46 Reagan, Ronald, Jr., 33, 43, 45

Reed, Thomas C., 17, 31 Republican national convention '

(19641, 2 Republican party, Republicans, 1-3,

8, 10-12, 14, 17, 27-28 Republican state convention, 1966,

14-16 Rhodes, William, 34 Roberts, William E., 4a, 9, 20-21 Roosevelt, James, 15 Rubel, A. C., 10-11, 30, 35 Rumferd Fair Housing Act, 14-15

Salvatori, Henry, 4, 6, 12 San Francisco Chronicle, 23 Schary, Dore, ' 15 Screen Actors Guild, 16 Smith, Gordon Paul, 36-37 Smith, Lee Sherry, 14-15 Spencer, Stuart, K., 20-21 Spencer-Roberts Company, 4-5, 9,

12-13 state college commission, 49 Sturgeon, Vernon L., 32, 37, 48

task forces, 34-36 taxation, taxes, 25-26, 33, 36, 44 transition (1966-67), 25-26, 28-34 Tuttle, Holmes, 6, 12, 30, 35 Tuttle, Mrs. Holmes, 6

University of California, 37-38, 49 University of California, Berkeley,

20-22, 29 Unruh, Jesse M., 46

Vietnam war, protests, 18 voluntary organizations, volunteers

in government, 34-36 in politics, 3, 12, 17, 23

von Damm, Helene, 32

Weinberger, Caspar, 37, 38 Williams, Spencer M., 40 women, in politics, 2-3

RON&,D R W A N GUBERNATORIAL ERA. 1966-1974

Gwernment History Doc-nation R o j e c t

The Ronald Reagan Gubernatarial Era R o j e c t war cmrried out by Universi ty of Ca l i fo rn ia a t Berkeley i n cooperation w i t h Universi ty of Cal i fornia a t Los Angeles, University of Ca l i fo rn ia a t Davis, Ca l i fo rn ia S t a t e Universi ty a t Fuller ton, and Qaremont Graduate School. In terviews a r e grouped by the i n s t i t u t i o n which produced them.

UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA AT BERmEY C

Single Interview Volumes :

B r e s l w , Lester. Vision and Real i ty i n S t a t e Health Care: Medi-Cal and Other Public Programs, 1946-1975. 1985, 96 p p

Carleson, Robert. Stemming t h e Welfare Tide. 1986, 107 pp.

Duke, Glenn S. The Evolution of the Cal i fo rn ia S t a t e Universi ty System, 1961-1982. 1986, 89 pp.

Dunckel, Earl B. Ronald Reagan and t h e General E l e c t r i c Theatre, 1954-1955. 1982, 46 pp.

Gianel l i , William, The Ca l i fo rn ia S t a t e Department of Water Resources, 1967-1973. 1986, 86 pp.

Gleason, Verne E. ~ a l i f o r n i a ' s Soc ia l Welfare Programs: An ~ d m i n i s t r a t o r ' s Views,. 1988, 183 pp.

Hell, James M. Supporting Reagan: From Banks t o Prisons. 1986, 157 pp.

Livermore, Norman B., Jr. Man i n t h e Middle: High S i e r r a Packer, Timberman, Conservationist, and Cal i f o r n i a Resources Secr e t a q . 1983, 285 pp.

Livingston, Donald G. Program and Policy Development i n Consumer Af fa i r s and t h e Governor's Office. 1986, 90 pp.

Reinecke, Ed. Haverick Congressman and Lieutenant Governor f o r Cal i f o r n i a 1965-1974. 1986, 100 pp.

Riles, Wilson C Wo Adversary Situations": Public School Education i n Cal i f o r n i a and Wilson C Riles, Superintendent of Pub1 i c Ins t ruc t ion , 1970-1982. 1984, 1 3 4 pp.

Smith. Wil l iam French. Evolu t ion of t h e Kitchen Cabinet. 1965-1973, 1989, 59pp.

Way, Howard Ko I s s u e s i n Correct ions: The Adult Authori ty , Determina te . Sentencing. and Pr i son Crowding. 1962-1982. 1986, 68 pp.

Wil l iams, Spencer M. The Human Re la t ions Agency: Pe r spec t ives and Programs Concerning Health. Welfare. and Correct ions. 1966-1970. 1986. 94 pp.

Mul t ip le Interview Volumes :

Appointments, Cabinet Management. and Pol icy Research f o r Gwernor Ronald Reagan. 1967-1974. 1983. 232 pp.

Adams. Winfred. "S t r a t eg i e s f o r Republican Elec t iops , S t a t e Government Management. and water ~ e s o u r c e s . 1963-1976."

Hearle. Paul R. 'Qonald Reagan and Republican Party P o l i t i c s i n Ca l i fo rn i a . 1965-1 968. "

Martin. J e r r y C "Information and Pol icy Research f o r Ronald Reagan, 1969-1 975. "

The A r t of Correc t ions Management. C a l i f o r n i a 1967-1974. 1984. 146 pp. Breed. Al len F. "Theory and P r a c t i c e i n J w e n i l e J u s t i c e . " Procunier. Raymond K. "Administering Your Prisons. "

The Assembly. t h e S t a t e Senate. and t h e Governor's Off ice. 1958-1974. 1982. 490 pp.

Bagley. William. "Some Complexi t ies of Socia l Progress and F i s c a l Ref om. "

M i l l s . James R "A Phi losophica l Approach t o L e g i s l a t i v e and E l e c t i o n R e a l i t i e s . 1959-1981. "

Monagan. Robert T. "Increasing Republican Inf luence i n t h e S t a t e Assembly. "

Rodda. Albert . "Sacramento Senator: S t a t e Leadership i n Educat ion and Finance. "

C a l i f o r n i a S t a t e Department of Finance and Gwernor Ronald Reagan 1986. 125 pp.

Beach. Edwin W. "Some Technical and P o l i t i c a l Aspects of S t a t e Budgeting. "

Bel l . Roy M. "Revenue P o l i c i e s and P o l i t i c a l R e a l i t i e s . " Dwight. James S, "Early Reagan Admin i s t r a t i on Perspec t ives on S t a t e

Finance. 1966-1 967. "

Ci t i zen Advocacy Organizat ions. 1960-1975. 1987. 210 pp. Canson. V i r n a 'Waging t h e War on Poverty and Di sc r imina t ion i n

C a l i f o r n i a through t h e NAACP. 1953-1974." Connolly. Margarete. "Speaking Out f o r Retarded Ci t izens . " Heine, Carolyn. "Building a Bas i s f o r Change : Cal i forn ia ' s

Commission on t h e S t a t u s of Women." Miller. Anita. "'The Tide of t h e Times Was With Us ' : Women's I s s u e s

and the C a l i f o r n i a Canmission on t h e S t a t u s of Women."

Democratic Par ty P o l i t i c s and Environmental I s sues i n Ca l i fo rn ia . 1962-1976. 1986, 101 pp.

Boae, Roger. 9 e m o c r a t i c S t a t e Central Cmmittee Chairman, 1968-1970." Warren, Charlee. "From t h e Ca l i fo rn ia Assembly t o t h e Council on

Environmental Quality, 1962-1979: The Evolut ion of an Envi ronmentdie t . "

Gwernor Reagan and H i s Cabinet: An Introduct ion. 1986, 174 pp. Luce, Gordon, "A Banker'e View of S t a t e Adminis t ra t ion and Republican

Po l i t i c s . " Orr, Verne. "Business Leadership i n t h e Department of Motor Vehicles

and S t a t e Finance." Reagan, Ronald. "On Becoming Governor."

Gwernor Reagan' s Cabinet and Agency Administration. 1986; 213 pp. Brian, E a r l W. "Health and Welfare Policy, 1970-1974: A Narrow

Spectrum of Debate." S teams, James G. "Joining Reagan's Campaign i n Sacramento:

Conservation, Agr icul ture , and Employee Relations." Thomas. Edwin W. , Jr. "The Governor' e Cabinet as Policy Forum. " Walton, Frank J. "Transportat ion P o l i c i e s and t h e P o l i t i c e of

Conservation, 1964-1974. " The Governor's Office: Access and Outreach, .1967-1974. 1987, 132 pp.

Bradley, Melvin. " F a c i l i t a t i n g Minority Input on S t a t e Pol icy, 1970- 1974. "

Habecker, Jackie. "A V i e w from t h e Reception Desk. " Magyar, Roger. 'Governor Reagan'e Task Forces on Tax Reduction and

Local Government. " The Gwernor's Off i c e and Publ ic Information, Education, and Planninp;, 1967-1974. 1984, 301 pp.

Beck, Paul. "From t h e Los Angeles Times t o t h e Executive Press Off ice, 1967-1972. "

Hannaf ord, Peter . RExpanding P o l i t i c a l Horizons. " S h e r r i f f s , Alex C "Education Advisor t o Ronald Reagan and S t a t e

Universi ty Administrator, 1969-1982." Tooker, John S. "Direc tor of t h e Off ice of Planning and Research, and

L e g i s l a t i v e Aseis tan t , 1967-1974. " I n t e r n a l and Externa l Operat ions of t h e Ca l i fo rn ia Gwernor 's Off i ce , 1966-1974. 1985, 235 pp.

Gillenwaters, Edgar. 'Waehington Off ice Troubleshooter and Advocate f o r ~ a n m e r c e i n c a l i f o&a, 1967-1973. "

Jenkins, James. "Pub1 i c Affa i rs , We1 f a r e Concerns i n Washington and Sacramento. 'I

Procunier, Florence Randolph. 'Working w i t h Edwin Meese. Walker, Robert. " P o l i t i c a l Advising and Advocacy f o r Ronald Reagan,

1965-1980 ." W a l ton, RUB. "Turning P o l i t i c a l Ideas i n t o Gwerment Program. "

Issues and Innovations i n the 1966 Republican Gubernat o r i a l Campaign. 1980, 187 pp.

Nofziger, Franklyn C. "Ress ~ e c r e t a x y f o r Ronald Reagan, 1966." Parkinson, Gay1 ord & "California Republican Party Of f ic ia l ,

1962-1967. " Roberte, William E "Profeesional Campaign Management and t h e

Candidate, 1960-1966. " Spencer, S tua r t K. "Developing a Campaign Management Organization.

Law Enforcement and Criminal J u s t i c e i n Calif otnia, 1966-1974. 1985, 300 pp.

E l l ingw ood, Herber t "Law Enforcement Planning and Coordination, 1969-1974. "

Gunterman, Joseph F. "Sacramento Advocate f o r t h e Friend8 Committee on Legisla t i o n of C a l i f o r n i a n

Houghton, Robert A "Law Enforcement Planning i n t h e Reagan Administration, 1971-1974. "

Marinissen, Jan. "'To Le t t h e Leg i s la tu re Knwl: Prison Advocacy and the American Friends S e m i ce Commit t e e i n Cal i fornia , 1960-19 83. "

Palumbo, Anthony L Taw Enforcement, Emergency Planning, and t h e Cal i fornia National Guard, 1965-1974. "

Legis la t ive Issue Management and Advocacy, 1961-1974. 1983, 315 pp. Cory, Ken. REduca t i o n Consultant and Assemblyman, 1961-1974. ' all, Kenneth. mPlaying Devil's Advocate': he Governor's Off i c e and

t h e Department of Finance i n Cal i fornia , 1966-1974." Kehoe, John. "Advocacy f o r Education, Consumerism, and Gwernor Ronald

Reagan, 1966-1974. Miller. John. "Issues of Criminal J u s t i c e and Black P o l i t i c s i n

Cal i fornia , 1966-1974. " Sturgeon, Vernon. "State Senator. Reagan Advisor, and PUC

Commissioner. 1960-1974. "

Organizational and Fiscal V i e w s of t h e Reagan Administration. 1984, 183 pp. King, Warren. 'Governor Reagan's Use of Task Forces and Loaned

Executives, 1966-1968. " Lucas, Harry. "New Approaches t o Vocational Rehabil i tat ion. " Post, A Alan. "Public Aims and Expenditure: A Divergent Viev. " Volk, Robert. Jr. %wetnment Reform and t h e Maturity of t h e P o l i t i c a l

Process.

Poverty Programs and Other Conservative Pol icy St ra tegies , 1970-1984. 1986, 110 p p

tAickering, A. Lawrence Hawkins, Robert B., Jr.

Republican Campaigns and Party I ssues , 1964-1976. 1986, 201 pp. Cris t ina. Vernon J. "A Northern Cal i f o rn ian Views Conservat ive

P o l i t i c s and P o l i c i e s , 1963-1970. " McDowell, J a c k S. 'Press Work and P o l i t i c a l Campaigns, 1966-1970." - Todd, A R u r i c "Experience and Advice f o r t h e Reagan Administrat ion,

1966-1968. " Watts, Skip (Norman). 'Observations of a Youthful P o l i t i c a l Pro.

Republican Philosophy and Party Activism. 1984, 142 pp. Hume, Jaque l in . 'Bas ic Economics and t h e Body P o l i t i c : Views of a

Northern C a l i f o r n i a Reagan Loyalist." de l Junco, T i r s a "Gal i f o r n i a Republican Party Leadership and Success,

1966-19 82. " Storrs , Eleanor Ring. "Par t ies , Po l i t i c s . and P r inc ip l e s : 'It's a t

t h e L o c a l Level.'" Wrather, Jack. "On Friendship, P o l i t i c s , and Gwernment. "

The San Francisco Bay Conservation and Development Commission, 1964-1973. 1986, 98 pp.

Bodwi tz , Joseph E. "Management and Pol i cy Direct ions. " Lane, Melvin B. "The Role of t h e Chairman i n S e t t i n g and Maintaining

G o a l s . " Shute, E Clement, Jr. T h e Place of t h e Courts i n t h e So lu t ion of

Cont rovers ia l Pol icy Issues."

San Francisco Republicans. 1980, 160 pp. Cbristopher, George. "Mayor of San Francisco and Republican Party

Candidate. " Weinberger, Caspar. "Cal i f o r n i a Assembly, Republican S t a t e Cent ra l

Commit tee, and Elec t ions , 1953-1966."

Serv ices f o r Cal i forn ians : Executive Department I s s u e s i n t h e Reagan Administration. 1967-1974. 1986, 240 pp.

Camil l i , Richard L. %eal t h Care Reform and S t a f f Development. 1969-1974. "

Carter, Louis, " P i l o t i n g Ass is tance t o Small and Minority Businesses. 1969-1975. "

Lowry, James V. "Sta te Mental Heal th Services, 1967-1971.1t Mott. Wil l iam Penn. Jr. "Managing t h e Ca l i fo rn ia S t a t e Park System,

1967-1974." Swoap, David. "The Continuing Story of W e l f a r e Ref om. 1965-1983 l1

UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA AT LOS N E L E S

Beilenson, Anthony C Securing L ibe ra l L e g i s l a t i o n During t h e Reagan Administration. 1982. 81 pp.

Burke, Yvonne Brathwaite. New Arenas of Black Influence. 1982, 46 pp.

Dales, Jack. Pragmatic Leadership: Ronald Reagan as Pres ident of t h e Screen Actors Guild. 1982, 49 pp,

Darling, Dick. Republican Activism: The Cal i fo rn ia Republican Assembly and Ronald R e a ~ . 1981, 56 pp.

Dunne, George H. Chris t ian Advocacy and Labor S t r i f e i n Hollywood. 1981, 67 pp.

Plog, Stanley. More than J u s t an Actor: The Early Campaigns of Ronald Reagan. 1981, 29 pp.

Reagan, N e i l . P r iva te Dimensions and Public Images: The Early P o l i t i c a l Campaims of Ronald Reagan. 1981, 5 8 pp.

Younger, Evel le J. A Lifet ime i n Law Enforcement. 1982, 60 pp.

Watson, P h i l i p E. Tax Reform and Profess ional iz ing the Los Angeles County Assessor 's Office. 1989, 443 pp .

CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY AT FULLERTON

Finch, Robert H. V i e w s From the ~ i e u t e n a n t Gwernor ts Office. 1983, 107 pp.

Wright, Donald. A View of Reagan and t h e Ca l i fo rn ia Courts. 1984, 87 pp.

The "Kitchen Cabinet": Four Calif o m i a Ci t i zen Advisers of Ronald Reagan. 1983, 157 pp.

Dar t , - Jus t in M i l l s , Edward Salvat o r i , Henry Tut tl e, Hol mes

Legislative-Governor Relat ions i n t h e Reagan Years: Five V i e w s . 1983, 277 pp.

Beverly, Robert. "Ref lec t ions of a Republican Assemblyman." Carpenter, Dennis E. "Republican S t a t e Committee Ola i r and Senator. " Cologne, Gordon. 'Water Pol icy i n t h e Reagan Years. " Moretti , Robert. "Recollect ions of a n Assembly Speaker." Zenwich, George. "Sena t e Democrat i n t h e Reagan Government. *

UAREMONT GRADUATE SCHOOL

Busterud, John A The Ca l i fo rn ia Const i tu t ion Revision Commission 1982, 37 pp.

Flournqy, Houston I. Ca l i fo rn ia Assemblyman and Control ler . 1982, 235 pp.

The History of Propos i t ion il: Precursor of C a l i f o r n i a Tax L i m i t a t i o n Meaeures. 1982, 102 pp.

Stubblebine, William Craig. T h e Development of Propos i t ion il. " Utilet, Leati8 K. "Chairman of Ta8k Force i n Tax Reduction."

UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA AT DAVIS

Coke, J. Earl. Reminiscence8 of People and Change i n Ca l i fo rn ia Agr icul ture , 1900-1 975. 197 6, 265 pp.

P a r t i c i p a t i n g I n s t i t u t i o n s

Oral History Off ice, Department of Specia l . Collect ions, Library, Universi ty of Cal i forn ia , Davis, Cal i forn ia , 95616.

Oral History Program, C a l i f o r n i a S t a t e Universi ty, Library 243, Ful ler ton, Cal i forn ia , 92634.

O r a l History Program, Claremont Graduate School, C l a r ~ o n t , California. 91711.

O r a l History Program, Powell Library Building, Univers i ty of Ca l i fo rn ia , Los Angeles, Ca l i fo rn ia , 90024.

Regional O r a l History Office, 486 The Bancroft Library, Univers i ty of Cal i forn ia , Berkeley, Cal i forn ia , 94720.

Gabr ie l l e Morris

Graduate of Connecticut College, New London, i n economics ; independent s tudy i n journal ism and c r e a t i t e w r i t i n g ; a d d i t i o n a l s tudy a t T r i n i t y College and Stanford un ive r s i ty .

H i s to r i an , U. S . Air Force, documenting Ber l in Air L i f t , o t h e r post-World War II i s sues . Pub l i c r e l a t i o n s and a d v e r t i s i n g f o r r e t a i l and t h e a t e r organiza t ions i n Connecticut. Research, wr i t i ng , pol icy development on Bay Area community i s s u e s f o r Universi ty of Ca l i fo rn ia , Bay Area Council of Soc ia l Planning, Berkeley Unif ied School D i s t r i c t , and o the r s .

In terv iewer-edi tor , Regional Ora l History Off ice , The Bancroft Library, 1970- Emphasis on l o c a l community and s o c i a l h i s t o r y ; and s t a t e government h i s tory documentation focused on s e l e c t e d admin i s t r a t ive , l e g i s l a t i v e , and p o l i t i c a l i s s u e s i n the guberna tor ia l adminis t ra t ions of E a r l Warren, Goodwin Knight, Edmund G. B r o w n , S r . , and Ronald Reagan.

19 80- , d i r e c t o r , Reagan ' Gubernatorial Era P ro jec t .

Sarah Lee Sharp

B.A., University of California, San Diego, 1971, vith ~ j o r in history.

H.A., University of California, San Diego, 1975, vith major field in United States history; Teaching Assistant in Comparative Americas, 1972-1975.

Ph.D., University of California, San Diego, 1979, vith major field in United States history; diesertation entitled, "Social Criticism in California During the Gilded Age."

Interviever-Editor for Regional Oral History Office, 1978 - 1986, speciali~ing in California political and legal history.

Date post:	01-Jun-2020
Category:	Documents
Upload:	others
View:	1 times
Download:	0 times

Regional Oral History Office University of California ... · In general, participating programs...

Documents