TAB 4
Report to Convocation September 28, 2017
Strategic Communications Steering Group
Julian Falconer, ChairRobert Burd
Teresa Donnelly Joseph Groia,
Sandra Nishikawa, Baljit Sikand
Tanya Walker
Purpose of Report: Decision
Prepared by: External Relations and Communications
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TABLE OF CONTENTS
For Decision
Renaming the Law Society of Upper Canada.……….……………………………....TAB 4.1
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COMMITTEE PROCESS
1. The Strategic Communications Steering Group met on September 5, 2017. Julian Falconer (Chair), Joseph Groia, and Baljit Sikand attended in person, with Robert Burd, Teresa Donnelly, Sandra Nishikawa, and Tanya Walker participating by telephone.
2. Staff members Sheena Weir, Diana Miles, and Alastair Harris-Cartwright were present.
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Tab 4.1
FOR DECISION
RENAMING THE LAW SOCIETY OF UPPER CANADA
Motion
3. That the Law Society of Upper Canada / Barreau du Haut-Canada change its name to the Law Society of Ontario / Barreau de l’Ontario effective January 1, 2018, and request that the Government of Ontario make the required amendments to the Law Society Act.
Issue for Consideration
4. The Strategic Communications Steering Group was established in February 2017 to examine how best to meet the Law Society’s strategic priority to ‘Engage stakeholders and the public with responsive communications’.
5. As part of this work, the Steering Group appointed an external consultant to undertake research with the general public and licensees. The findings will aid the development of an overall strategic communications plan for the organization.
6. An executive summary of the relevant research findings is attached at Tab 4.1.1.
7. Among other things, the research findings pointed to the organization’s name, particularly ‘Upper Canada’ as a barrier to connecting with the general public.
8. The consultant recommended to the Strategic Communications Steering Group that a name change from the Law Society of Upper Canada to the Law Society of Ontario be considered.
9. The Strategic Communications Steering Group considered and unanimously agreed with the recommendation.
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Rationale
10. A name change to the Law Society of Ontario is recommended for several reasons:a. The general public do not know that the Law Society is the regulator for
the legal professions in Ontario;b. The public do not know what ‘Upper Canada’ is, and those who do are
confused by its use in the Law Society’s name;c. ‘Upper Canada’ does not reflect the geographic area the Law Society
represents;d. ‘Upper Canada’ is a non-inclusive phrase, which is also offensive to
some;e. The ‘Upper Canada’ portion of the name is an anachronism, is viewed as
elitist by some, and is inconsistent with the image the Law Society wishes to portray of a modern and inclusive regulator;
f. The proposed name change would achieve consistency with the names of other law societies across Canada and internationally, and therefore be more recognizable;
g. A name change will help the Law Society connect with the public, making the proposed communications strategy more effective; and
h. A name change is also reflective of the organization’s wider efforts to engage with Indigenous peoples as part of its Indigenous Framework developed in response to the Calls for Action in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada’s report.
Key Issues and Considerations
11. The development of a comprehensive awareness campaign, pursuant to the Law Society’s strategic priorities, is underway and will come to Convocation this fall.
12. The communications plan aims to increase engagement with the general public, while raising awareness of the Law Society’s role in helping to promote access to justice in Ontario. Communications efforts will enable the organization to more effectively engage with the public and fulfill its statutory mandate of serving the public need. Efforts will focus on informing the public on how to access licensed legal professionals and legal resources, and how to register complaints when poorly served. In addition, communications will also help promote the use of legal professionals as a whole and highlight the critical work they undertake.
13. A name change will positively impact the awareness campaign, planned for the new year, by providing added leverage to secure media coverage.
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14. The name change will be phased in over 12 months. This allows for a transition period and ensures utilization of any materials with the ‘Upper Canada’ name, both reducing cost implications of a name change, and allowing for a gradual adoption of a new name throughout the organization.
15. A request for an amendment to the Law Society Act to reflect a name change will be submitted immediately upon a positive decision by Convocation.
16. The organization will begin to operate as the Law Society of Ontario on January 1, 2018, while the legal name of the organization will remain as the Law Society of Upper Canada until an amendment is made to the Act.
17. There will be no immediate requirement for licensees to update their stationery or websites indicating they are a member of the Law Society of Ontario. A reference to the Law Society of Upper Canada will be interpreted as Law Society of Ontario.
18. Much of the work associated with the name change will be completed by existing staff in their individual areas at no incremental cost. Costs of the name change are also separate from the outreach costs to publicize the name change and raise the profile of the organization with the public which is part of the larger Communications Plan to support the strategic priority to raise awareness with the public. An amount of $150,000 has been allocated in the 2018 budget for the purposes of phasing in the formal name change requirements over 2018, including for example, updating stationery, signage, website references, and logo update. This cost is included in the draft communications budget as part of the awareness campaign considered by the Audit and Finance Committee as part of the 2018 budget process.
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Tab: 4.1.1
Executive Summary Law Society of Upper Canada Research Project
The Law Society of Upper Canada commissioned qualitative and quantitative research in 2016/17 to better understand Ontarians’ views on legal services in the Province and obtain member feedback on the Society’s communications efforts and preferences for communications channels and media. The following is a summary of these findings.
Ontarians’ views on legal services
Hiring a lawyer or paralegalA large majority of Ontarians, 75% have hired a lawyer in the past and of those who did, 81% were satisfied with their experience. Of 19% who were not satisfied, the key reasons given were cost and timing. Only 29% of the people are familiar with the services that lawyers provide. Most Ontarians 90% understand lawyers need a license to practice and they are regulated in Ontario 80%.
One in 10 Ontarians have hired a paralegal in the past. Of the few who had hired a paralegal, 73% were satisfied with their experience. The key reasons with hiring a paralegal were largely based on it being less expensive. Very few Ontarians, only 10%, are familiar with the services that paralegals provide and most do not know that they are licensed.
How to find a lawyer or paralegalMost Ontarians would “ask a friend or family member” or go online if they were trying to find a lawyer or paralegal. 81% of Ontarians would ask friend/family if they were trying to find a lawyer, 69% to find a paralegal. In terms of searching online, 73% of Ontarians would search online to find a paralegal, 72% would search online to find a lawyer.
Key Drivers – Trust and HonestyOntarians were asked what is most important to you when choosing legal help and the top two drivers were trust 76% and honesty 72%. Other things that were important were expertise 70%, value for money 69% and competency 67%. Trust and honesty were also highly correlated with satisfaction of hiring for both lawyers and paralegals. The key barriers to choosing legal help are largely cost at 72%, and concern over competency of hired legal help at 36%.
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Want to learn how to find legal help and what to doOntarians want to learn how to find legal help, what to do when they need legal help and more about the services lawyers and paralegals provide. When informed about the Law Society Referral Service, most Ontarians were not aware of the service but were quite interested in hearing more about the “30 minutes of free legal consultation from the Law Society Referral Service.”
Impressions of Law Society of Upper CanadaOntarians were not very familiar with the Law Society of Upper Canada. Less than half of Ontarians 46% believe that it represents the province of Ontario, 20% believe it represents Canada, and 25% do not know. Ontarians also provided feedback as to what disliked about the name. These comments mainly focused on “Upper Canada” and verbatim comments included “out of touch”, “unclear”, “too colonial”, “not inclusive” and “don’t know what Upper Canada is?”
Research Sample – Ontario AdultsThe Ontario population research study was conducted with 1000 Adults 18+, evenly split male/female. The sample size was regionally representative of the population across the Province; 51% completed a college or university degree; 12% completed high school; 50% were employed full time; 16% retired; 74% white and 18% racialized. The sample size was statistically significant [stat].
Members’ views on communications
Impressions of the Law SocietyWhile members see the Law Society as the legal regulator and governing body, it was also described as “bureaucratic,” “antiquated” and “old”. 53% have positive impressions of the Law Society, 26% are neutral and 21% have negative impressions.
Law Society should be an agent of change for the professionsMembers were asked to best describe their views on the approach the Law Society should take on the future. Only 24% of members believe the Law Society should maintain the status quo. 49% came out strongly in favour of the Law Society being be an agent of change for the professions.
Law Society communicationsMember awareness of Law Society communications is greatest for Ontario Reports 95%, followed by the Member Portal 92%, CPD program information 88%, and the Law Society Website 85%. When asked what do members want to hear more about rule changes topped the list. Members would also like improvements to communications including better targeted and less frequent emails, and a better portal experience.
Awareness of key law society initiatives is lowMember awareness of key law society initiatives was low between 12 – 32%. Lawyer licensing 32%, advertising 28%, racialized licensees 28%, alternative business structures 21%, The Access Group (TAG) 21%, Coach and Advisor Network 19%, Mental Health Framework 15%, and Compliance-based Entity regulation 12%.
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Public Awareness Members would like any public awareness initiatives from the Society to focus on what to do when you need legal help 38%, benefits of using a lawyer or paralegal 37% and how to find a lawyer or paralegal 35%.
Members views on the name Half of members believe the name the Law Society of Upper Canada is suitable at 50%, while the other half thought the name not suitable or somewhat suitable. Reasons for not being suitable centred on Upper Canada in the name.
Analysis & Insight
ß While a large portion of Ontarians have hired legal services in the past they are not very familiar with what services are provided by lawyers and paralegals.
ß Ontarians views and member views on the key elements of a public awareness program are fairly aligned. They focus on what to do when you need legal help and how to find a lawyer and paralegal.
ß Many Ontarians are confused about the name the Law Society of Upper Canada as most do not know what it represents or do not like the words Upper Canada.
ß Many members do not feel connected to the Society as they are not familiar withwhat the Society does and they are not aware of many of the key initiatives undertaken by the Society.
ß Members would like the Society to play a larger role in advancing the professions and be an agent of change.
Methodology
The Ontario population research study was conducted with 1007 Adults 18+, evenly split male/female. The sample size was regionally representative of the population across the Province; 51% completed a college or university degree; 12% completed high school; 50% were employed full time; 16% retired; 74% white and 18% racialized. The sample was robust and the data was statistically significant (stat tested at 95% CI).
The member research study was conducted with N=2312 licensed members (1936 lawyers, and 376 paralegals), evenly split male/female. The sample size was representative of the member population across the Province; 51% were ages 35-64; 45% were private practice, soles or smalls, and 29% were in-house or government; 17% were racialized; 54% were from Toronto, 17% from the East and 29% from rest of province. The sample was robust and the data was statistically significant (stat tested at 95% CI).
Research conducted by Colbourne Consulting Inc. 2017.
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1400-85, rue Albert Ottawa (Ontario) K1P 6A4 T (613) 842-7462 F (613) 842-8389 [email protected] www.ajefo.ca
Me Paul Schabas
Trésorier
Barreau du Haut-Canada
Osgoode Hall
130, rue Queen ouest
Toronto (Ontario) M5H 2N6
Ottawa, le 27 septembre 2017
Objet : Lettre d’appui au changement de nom proposé du Barreau du Haut-Canada à Barreau
de l’Ontario
Trésorier Schabas,
L’Association des juristes d’expression française de l’Ontario (AJEFO) appuie favorablement le
changement de nom du Barreau du Haut-Canada à Barreau de l’Ontario.
L’AJEFO estime qu’il est dans son mandat d’appuyer cette initiative du Barreau de prendre un
nom qui est plus moderne, inclusif et reflète les avancées des divers groupes qui composent la
membriété du Barreau. L’AJEFO souhaite par la présente mettre en valeur les raisons qui
motivent son appui.
1. Un changement qui reflète le statut du français au Barreau
Premièrement, le terme « Haut-Canada » évoque les temps de la colonisation anglaise et ne
reflète pas la présente inclusion des membres de la profession juridique d’expression française
de l’Ontario. En effet, la proposition de changement de nom à « Barreau de l’Ontario » tiendra
en compte les réalités de la profession juridique d’expression française de l’Ontario et favorisera
le sentiment d’appartenance de la communauté francophone au Barreau. Ce changement de
nom démontrera l’évolution du Barreau et de sa membriété diverse. De plus, ce nom permettra
de reconnaître plus formellement le statut du français au Barreau en s’assurant de ne pas utiliser
des références colonisatrices désuètes tout en reconnaissant les contributions et les
développements très importants du Barreau d’être inclusif.
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1400-85, rue Albert Ottawa (Ontario) K1P 6A4 T (613) 842-7462 F (613) 842-8389 [email protected] www.ajefo.ca
2. Un nom vulgarisé et clair
Deuxièmement, le Barreau règlemente les activités des avocats, avocates et parajuristes de
l’Ontario dans l’intérêt du public. Dans cette optique, l’utilisation de la terminologie « Haut-
Canada » n’est plus représentative parce que ce terme n’est plus d’usage pour identifier notre
province. Ce terme n’est pas accessible pour le public. Cette terminologie entrave également le
sentiment identitaire que devrait avoir le public envers le Barreau. L’utilisation du mot
« Ontario » sera ainsi davantage claire et accessible pour le public.
3. Un nom moderne en 2017
Puisque nous sommes en 2017, le changement proposé modernisera l’image de marque du
Barreau et reflètera la diversité de ses membres, particulièrement pour ses plus jeunes avocats,
avocates et parajuristes.
Enfin, l’AJEFO réitère que cette initiative constitue un pas dans la bonne direction vers la
reconnaissance plus formellement du statut du français au Barreau. Toutefois, nous rappelons
que l’AJEFO a encore plusieurs préoccupations quant aux réalités et aux difficultés de la
profession juridique d’expression française de l’Ontario telles qu’identifiées dans son mémoire
soumis au Barreau le 31 juillet 2017 dans le cadre du dialogue sur l’accès à la profession.
En espérant que notre appui aura une suite positive, nous vous prions de recevoir l’expression
de nos sentiments les meilleurs.
Me Sonia Ouellet Présidente, AJEFO
Me Andrée-Anne Martel Directrice générale, AJEFO
C.c. : Mme Suzanne Clément, Conseillère, BHC
Mme Sheena Weir, Directrice générale, External Relations and Communications, BHC
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Mr. Paul SchabasTreasurerLaw Society of UpperCanadaOsgoode Hall130, Queen Street WestToronto, ON M5H 2N6
Ottawa - September 27, 2017
Re: Letter of support for the proposed name change from Law Society of Upper Canada to Law Society of Ontario
Dear Treasurer,
The Association des juristes d’expression française de l’Ontario (AJEFO) supports the name change from Law Society of Upper Canada to Law Society of Ontario.
AJEFO considers it within its mandate to support this initiative by the Law Society to adopt a name which is more modern and inclusive and which reflects the advancements of the many groups that make up the Law Society’s membership. AJEFO wishes to underline the reasons for its support for this initiative.
1. A change that reflects the status of the French language at the Law Society
First, the phrase « Upper Canada » harks back to the days of English colonisation and does not reflect the current inclusion of French-speaking members of the legal profession in Ontario. Indeed, the proposed name change to “Law Society of Ontario” will take into consideration the realities of the French-speaking members of the legal profession in Ontario and will foster the feeling that they belong at the Law Society. This name change will demonstrate the evolution of the Law Society and of its diverse membership. Furthermore, this name will allow for a more formal recognition of the status of French at the Law Society by avoiding the use of obsolete colonial references and recognizing the very important contributions and developments of the Law Society towards inclusiveness.
1400-85, rue AlbertOttawa (Ontario) K1P 6A4T (613) 842-7462F (613) [email protected]
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2. A more approachable, clearer name
Second, the Law Society regulates lawyers and paralegals of Ontario in the public interest. With this in mind, the use of the phrase “Upper Canada” is no longer representative because thisphrase is no longer used to refer to our province. It is no longer accessible by the public. This terminology is also a barrier to the public identifying with the Law Society. The use of the word “Ontario” will therefore be much clearer and accessible for the public.
3. A modern name in 2017
Because it is 2017, the proposed change will modernise the Law Society’s image and reflect the diversity of its members, particularly its younger lawyers and paralegals.
Finally, AJEFO reiterates that this initiative is a step in the right direction towards greater formal recognition of the French language at the Law Society. However, we would like to remind you that AJEFO still has a number of concerns regarding the realities and difficulties faced by the French-speaking members of the legal profession in Ontario and which it has outlined in its submission to the Law Society on July 31, 2017, within the context of the Dialogue on Licensing.
We hope that our support will contribute towards a positive result.
Best regards,
Me Sonia OuelletPresident, AJEFO
Me Andrée-Anne MartelCEO, AJEFO
C.c. : Mme Suzanne Clément, Conseillère, BHCMme Sheena Weir, Directrice générale, External Relations and Communications, BHC
1400-85, rue AlbertOttawa (Ontario) K1P 6A4T (613) 842-7462F (613) [email protected]
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THE LAW SOCIETY OF UPPER CANADA
CONVOCATION
FRIDAY. JANUARY 29TH. 1993
OPEN SESSION
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CONVOCATION ATTENDANCE - MORNING SESSION
Treasurer - Allan Rock
Allan F. Lawrence Kenneth Howie
Ronald W. Cass Frances Kiteley
G.H.T. Farquharson V. Krishna
Kenneth Jarvis
Laura Legge
Brendan O'Brien
Arthur Scace
James Spence
Stuart Thorn
William Howland
Thomas Bastedo
Rino Bragagnolo
Lloyd Brennan
Colin Campbell
Paul Copeland
Carole Curtis
E. Susan Elliott
Philip Epstein
Abraham Feinstein
Neil Finkelstein
Stephen Goudge
S. Casey Hill
Paul Lamek
Donald Lamont
Netty Graham
Nora Angeles-Richardson
Hope Sealy
Joan Lax
Earl Levy
Colin McKinnon
Fatima Mohideen
Ross Murray
Karen Palmer
Patricia Peters
David Scott
Marc Somerville
Harvey Strosberg
Robert C. Topp
James Wardlaw
Mary Weaver
Roger Yachetti
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1 CONVOCATION ATTENDANCE - AFTERNOON SESSION
2 Treasurer - Allan Rock
3 Ronald W. Cass Kenneth Howie
4 G.H.T. Farquharson v. Krishna
5 Laura Legge Paul Lamek
6 Brendan O'Brien Donald Lamont
7 P.B.C. Pepper Netty Graham
8 Arthur Scace Joan Lax
9 James Spence Earl J. Levy
10 Thomas Bastedo Fatima Mohideen
11 Rino Bragagnolo Ross Murray
12 Lloyd G. Brennan Karen Palmer
13 Paul Copeland Patricia Peters
14 E. Susan Elliott David Scott
15 Philip Epstein Marc Somerville
16 Abraham G. Feinstein Robert Topp
17 Neil Finkelstein James Wardlaw
18 Stephen Goudge Mary Weaver
19 s. Casey Hill
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INDEX
MATTER
Treasurer's Remarks
Motions: Committee Appointments
Call to the Bar
Committee Reports Taken as Read
Items to be Spoken to:
Bicentennial
Discipline Policy
Finance & Administration
Equity in Legal Education & Practice
Insurance
Legal Education
Professional Standards
Research and Planning
County & District Liaison
PAGE NO.
4
7
42
10
12
19
42
111
66
115
154
149
151 18 Reports requiring Consideration:
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Insurance
Legal Aid
Reports Spoken to:
Professional Standards
Research & Planning
Clinic Funding
Matters Requiring Debate:
Special Committee on Access to Legal
Serivices
Name Change of Law Society
Special Committee on Court Reform
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1 MR. HOWIE: One of the questions put by
2 Miss Peters was not answered and that is the issue of the
3 financing of the annual deficits and I am prepared to talk
4 to that only in this sense: That the Finance Committee as
5 part of the budget process reviewed the issue of what will
6 happen with respect to recertification.
7 Our November report indicated, Treasurer,
8 that the Finance Committee was prepared to -- is prepared
9 to recommend that we will continue to finance what is an
10 anticipated deficit in certification until 1995. Fiscal
11 year 94-95, not beyond. Not that that's decided, one more
12 fiscal year.
13 MS. PETERS: When will it be decided?
14 MR. HOWIE: That's a budget process.
15 THE TREASURER: Let's move then to the
16 motion to change the name.
17 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, I had a matter
18 drawn to my attention by associate counsel from Timmins,
19 Ontario, Mr. Bragagnolo, who pointed out that there's a
20 misspelling in the report. The addendum report, paragraph
21 one, Civil Litigation, fifth line down should be
22 principal, "A-L."
23 MR. COPELAND: It's been passed already. I
24 don't think we can do that.
25 MR. BRAGAGNOLO: For the record, associate
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1 counsel in Timmins carry their own books to the library.
2 THE TREASURER: The motion for name change
3 was first brought last September I believe and is now
4 before us. Let me first of all set the record straight.
5 The Law Times reported a week or so ago
6 that I had announced that the name of the Law Society
7 would change effective today to the Law Society of
8 Ontario. Now, someone at the Law Times must think this
9 position is a lot more powerful than it is because
10 everybody here knows that no such thing could conceivably
11 happen and no one I hope could conceive that I would have
12 announced it in that way.
13 I wrote to the Law Times and told them that
14 they were in error in that regard and I accepted
15 responsibility if the error fell from anything I said or
16 if I led or caused any misunderstanding, but I asked that
17 a correction be printed. So I didn't say that. But many
18 members of the profession thought that I did, of course,
19 and I've had my share of mail and phone calls which I take
20 as penance for my sins.
21 But I think that -- I think one of the
22 points I'd like to see this afternoon made is that it
23 would be nice if we could deal with this thing today once
24 and for all and move it off our agenda, whether we deal
25 with it by saying we're not going to deal with it or
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1 dealing with it by saying we'll make a decision today or
2 have a plebiscite or referendum.
3 I think that there are many members of the
4 profession who believe that we should be dealing with
5 other more pressing matters and I'd like to see us get
6 this thing out of the way, one way or the other. I expect
7 that people have fixed views one way or the other. I
8 think we should also try to avoid an extended debate that
9 will serve only to provide an exchange of those fixed
10 views. I'm not sure how many minds are going to be
11 changed.
12 I think there are two motions of which I am
13 aware. Or perhaps just one, Mr. Thorn.
14 MR. THOM: Let me first say thank you for
15 what you just said by way of introduction. Also this is
16 not a major matter of significance in the history of our
17 Society and shouldn't occupy too much time, however it's
18 been put on the table and for that if it's going to occupy
19 time that can be better employed, Mr. Topp and I
20 apologize.
21 Let me say secondly, the motion we put
22 before you today is the one that's in your book of reports
23 and that the document put on your chairs is withdrawn or
24 was never presented, let's put it that way.
25 Maybe you thought Mr. Topp and I bend at
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1 every breeze that blows. The motion we ask you to
2 consider this afternoon is the one steps be taken to
3 changing the name to the Law Society of Ontario.
4 THE TREASURER: That's the one at tab
5 two?
6 MR. THOM: Tab two. In that regard I will
7 make my remarks very brief, I trust.
8 Let me first of all give you a little
9 history. The Bureau du Loi Canada changed its name to
10 Barreau du Quebec in 1869; they moved expeditiously
11 (inaudible). The Law Society ---
12 MR. SCOTT: Treasurer, could Mr. Thorn do
13 this from here? The reporter has to get this down and
14 she's really struggling. If you come down a little
15 further the reporter can hear you.
16 MR. THOM: Trouble hearing me?
17 MR. SCOTT: Some people do. I know what
18 you're going to say but the reporter doesn't.
19 MR. SPENCE: Mr. Scott is junior counsel
20 in this case.
21 MR. THOM: Thank you for the
22 instructions. I at this point would like to quote from
23 the opinions expressed by an eminent member of our
24 association of the Society, he can adopt them later as he
25 pleases. But they say what I have to say on this point.
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1 Upper Canada has not existed for a very
2 long time, not, in fact, since 1840. The Law Society now
3 represents the public and lawyers in Ontario and in the
4 profession in Ontario we have the responsibility and the
5 function and the privilege of representing them and acting
6 on their behalf, the lawyers of Ontario. The name causes
7 confusion amongst the public and has become an anachronism.
8 I don't think I need to remark on that particular
9 comment.
10 I believe a change in name would reflect
11 our commitment of change into fresh ideas. I have nothing
12 further to add to the motion Mr. Topp and I have advanced
13 today, but would suggest at this time we recognize that we
14 are the Law Society of Ontario, which we are, no matter
15 what other fancy names we have adopted or used in the
16 past, and it is time we now should recognize and give
17 public expression to our position in this Society.
18 THE TREASURER: Thank you Mr. Thorn. Mr.
19 Topp?
20 MR. TOPP: Thank you, Treasurer. I won't
21 speak very long for a change. There are a litany of
22 reasons why we ought to consider changing the name and I
23 want to list some of them. The Law Society of British
24 Columbia; the Law Society of Alberta; the Law Society of
25 Saskatchewan.
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1 MR. EPSTEIN: We get it. We get it.
2 MR. TOPP: Treasurer, notwithstanding
3 associate counsel's admonitions, for his benefit I want to
4 go on.
5 THE TREASURER: Which direction are you
6 going in?
7 MR. TOPP: The Law Society of Manitobai
8 the Law Society of New Brunswicki the Law Society of
9 Newfoundlandi the Law Society of the Northwest
10 Territoriesi Nova Scotia Barristers Societyi the Law
11 Society of Prince Edward Islandi the Law Society of Yukoni
12 and the Law Society of Upper Canada.
13 MR. COPELAND: Sounds good.
14 MR. TOPP: Well, the last matter brings us
15 to the question of where is Upper Canada? Well, I think I
16 have the answer to that question, Treasurer. Upper Canada
17 is a place that is near Queen and University in the City
18 of Toronto. It's on the second floor of one-half of one
19 building. It's in a room about 80 feet by 30 feet and it
20 exists in the minds of some people in this room, but with
21 the greatest of respect, it does not exist in the minds of
22 the average Ontarian.
23 It's my respectful submission that the time
24 has simply arrived to recognize that the people of Ontario
25 ought to have a governing body that governs lawyers with a
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1 recognizable name which reflects Ontario as it is today
2 rather than it was years ago.
3 Recently in the United States Bill Clinton
4 was elected on the image of moving forward. It's time the
5 Law Society gave the image of moving forward and departing
6 from the past.
7 Treasurer, I was about to adopt those
8 wonderful words that you have now denied saying more
9 specifically, sir, of catapulting the Society into the
10 21st century. Now, I can't imagine who would have said
11 those words but had they put those words in my mouth, sir,
12 I would not have denied them.
13 Thank you. I move the adoption.
14 THE TREASURER: I think I'm not in the
15 position to deny those words, Mr. Topp. I denied saying
16 that the name change would occur today. I said that the
17 issue would be on agenda today for discussion and that
18 some people believed that such a change would catapult
19 into the 21st century. That's exactly what I said.
20 MR. TOPP: Thank you, Treasurer. I am
21 delighted to have adopted your words.
22 THE TREASURER: Mr. McKinnon?
23 MR. MCKINNON: Treasurer, I rise in
24 support of the motion brought by Mr. Thorn and Mr. Topp.
25 And I speak as someone who loves history, who is a
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1 director of the Advocates' Society, someone who has some
2 knowledge of the history of our legal profession in this
3 province, who is mindful of the tradition of the words
4 "Upper Canada" and our great tradition since 1970 -- 1797
5 of the Law Society of Upper Canada, but I speak as one
6 also who has chaired the Communications Committee and the
7 French Language Services Committee. And it's very
8 difficult in dealing with our French members to explain Le
9 Barreau du Haut-Canada, the Bar of High Canada - it doesn't
10 sound right - it would be easier I think to deal with the
11 Bar of Ontario, the Barreau du Ontario - it would sound
12 much better to start with and have more relevance to our
13 French members.
14 From the Communications Perspective,
15 frankly there is confusion as Mr. Topp and Mr. Thorn have
16 indicated in the minds of the public as to the Upper
17 Canada Law Society. I think it would be I think it
18 would be more respectful of our citizens to call ourselves
19 what we are, we are the Bar of Ontario. We are the
20 governors of the Law Society of Ontario and I think
21 there's no shame in calling ourselves what we are.
22 I wish to -- to put this in perspective
23 because when we deal with change, we always I think as
24 lawyers should deal with change wisely and put it in
25 context. And I -- I harken to the words of T.S. Eliot
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1 in an essay he wrote after "Strange Gods" in 1934 and let
2 me just read these to you. It speaks of tradition. And
3 he says that:
4 " ... the sound tree will put forth new
5 leaves, and the dry tree should be put
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
to the axe. We are always in danger,
in clinging to an old tradition, or
attempting to re-establish one, of
confusing the vital and the
unessential, the real and the
sentimental. Our second danger is to
associate tradition with the immovable;
to think of it as something hostile to
all change; to aim to return to some
previous condition which we imagined as
having been capable of preservation in
perpetuity, instead of aiming to
stimulate the life which produced that
condition in its own time.
It is not of advantage to us to indulge
in a sentimental attitude toward the
past. For one thing, in even the very
best living tradition there is always a
mixture of good and bad, and much that
deserves criticism; and for another,
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1 tradition is not a matter of feeling
2 alone. Nor can we safely, without very
3 critical examination, dig ourselves in
4 stubbornly to a few dogmatic notions,
5 for what is a healthy belief at one
6 time may, unless it is one of the few
7 fundamental things, be a pernicious
8 prejudice at another ... What we can do
9 is to use our minds, remembering that a
10 tradition without intelligence is not
11 worth having, to discover what is the
12 best life for us not as a political
13 abstraction, but as a particular people
14 in a particular place; what in the past
15 is worth preserving and what should be
16 rejected; and what conditions, within
17 our power to bring about, would foster
18 the society we desire."
19 Now, I cannot think or conceive of a better
20 description or analysis of what true tradition constitutes
21 and taking the lesson of Eliot, I would say he who
22 modernized the idiom that we all used to and rejecting old
23 romantic notions of idiom, I think we can take lessons
24 from Eliot and apply them to our own Society.
25 To suggest that it is a betrayal of
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1 tradition to change the name of our Society with respect I
2 think is a betrayal of the notion of what truly is
3 meritorious in the concept of tradition and I encourage
4 adoption of the motion.
5 THE TREASURER: Thank you, Mr. McKinnon.
6 MR. O'BRIEN: Can I ask is there a second
7 motion on this?
8 THE TREASURER: There is about to be.
9 Thank you, Mr. O'Brien. Mr. Epstein?
10 MR. EPSTEIN: It's hard to follow T.S.
11 Eliot; all I know about T.S. Eliot is he wrote "Cats"
12 and I liked "Cats."
13 Unlike Mr. Thorn, I don't apologize for
14 Convocation having to deal with this matter because I
15 think it is of some significance because I think changing
16 the name represents an important symbol to the Law
17 Society, and while I agree with all of the comments made
18 about the change of the name and if there is a referendum,
19 which I am about to propose, I will vote to change the
20 name.
21 But I think that the members are entitled
22 to be heard and make a decision on this issue. This has
23 been the name of the Society for almost 200 years and it
24 is important that if we are going to discuss and consider
25 changing it, that the members be consulted. There are
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1 many who have a strong and abiding feeling that the Law
2 Society of Upper Canada is now our name, has been our name
3 and ought not to be changed, and there are many of those,
4 the three who have spoken thus far today, who feel
5 strongly that we ought to change the name: I am among
6 them.
7 I do think it represents a symbolic jump
8 into the 21st century and I think we ought to do it. But
9 this is akin to a constitutional change and while it is
10 not the change in the words of our constitution, it is
11 changing a very significant part of it in that it is our
12 name and our name represents something. And in my view,
13 the members ought to be heard on this issue.
14 I think the fact that we have a referendum
15 on this issue will stir interest in the Law Society. I
16 can see various counties and districts having Oxford style
17 debates and hearing both sides of the issue. I think it
18 would be an exciting thing to do and while I do not
19 generally believe that it is our role or obligation or a
20 necessity to consult the membership on each and every
21 issue, I do think that something as fundamental as this
22 ought to go to the membership and therefore I move that
23 the Law Society of Upper Canada membership be polled by
24 way of a referendum to determine whether we ought to
25 change the name to the Law Society of Ontario and the head
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1 of the Law Society -- the head of the Law Society to
2 President.
3 Now, I gather a number of people wish to
4 second that, Mr. Somerville?
5 THE TREASURER: Mr. Somerville is
6 seconding that motion.
7 MR. SOMERVILLE: Yes, I do.
8 MR. EPSTEIN: I initially in my letter
9 indicated to you, Treasurer, that I also propose this be
10 held at the time of the next Bencher election to take
11 place at the bicentennial. I think we ought to deal with
12 that separately, so at the moment I simply move that there
13 be a referendum and then if that passes, I think we ought
14 to have some short debate as to when that referendum ought
15 to take place.
16 I have reconsidered and I think it ought to
17 take place immediately but we can deal with that in due
18 course.
19 THE TREASURER: All right. There are
20 other speakers: Mr. Bragagnolo, Mr. Feinstein, Mr. Howie
21 and Mr. Somerville. Mr. Bragagnolo?
22 MR. BRAGAGNOLO: Yes. I'd like to speak
23 against both motions and I think we should continue the
24 name of the Law Society of Upper Canada and the head of
25 the Law Society should be the Treasurer. And I say that
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1 for the following reasons: The public doesn't care
2 whether the name is the Law Society of Upper Canada or the
3 Law Society of Ontario. If they get into any trouble
4 they're going to go see their lawyer and it doesn't matter
5 one way or the other what the name is. They don't even
6 care that our Dial-A-Law and our referral system, there's
7 no problem with the public associating themselves with the
8 Law Society of Upper Canada.
9 Secondly, what about the cost? I am
10 advised by our chief librarian there are 150,000 volumes
11 endorsed with the Law Society of Upper Canada. What about
12 the cost of -- are we going to embellish those 150,000
13 with the new? What about the certificates that have been
14 issued by the Law Society of Upper Canada? Are we going
15 to change that? And what's the cost involved in all
16 that?
17 I say that we have to look at the pragmatic
18 aspect as well. So for historical reasons I say leave it
19 alone, it's been with us for a long time. I don't think
20 the Bar of Ontario have any problems whether they be
21 French or sons of recent immigrants or otherwise in
22 associating the name of the Law Society of Upper Canada
23 with the ruling body governing body of the Ontario Bar.
24 And I would add just to my friend to say
25 that brevity is the soul of wit, so I'm going to be very
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1 witty right now.
2 THE TREASURER: Mr. Feinstein?
3 MR. FEINSTEIN: Through you, Treasurer, to
4 Mr. Topp. Do you think Canadian Tire should change its
5 name?
6 THE TREASURER: Mr. Howie?
7 MR. HOWIE: My nemesis -- one of my
8 nemesis, Treasurer, in the Finance Committee is my former
9 student, that recent son of immigrants, Mr. Bragagnolo.
10 And he refers to something that I would remind Convocation
11 and that is I wrote down exactly the same thing, there is
12 a real cost problem, so that I strongly tell you that if
13 you follow the policy of the Law Society, there's no way
14 we can vote on this issue until there is a budget which
15 has been prepared and it seems to me that the logical
16 thing to do, and I'm only speaking to this and I may give
17 away how I feel about this personally, I don't propose to
18 speak to that issue, I support the issue of the referendum
19 only because I think it will put the issue to rest.
20 Hopefully it will go a certain way but that doesn't
21 matter.
22 It seems to me, though, what needs to be
23 done if we do decide that there's to be a referendum, it
24 would be subject to these things. The appointment of a
25 special committee and that special committee would be
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1 charged with the function of bringing a budget to
2 Convocation, or at least to the Finance Committee for
3 approval; secondly, timing; and third, wording of the
4 referendum.
5 It seems to me there's there's no way
6 Convocation is going to put this issue by way of wording
7 into something we can agree upon.
8 That's my submission of what needs to be
9 done if it goes further or if the motion for referendum is
10 passed.
11 THE TREASURER: Thank you, Mr. Howie. Mr.
12 Somerville?
13 MR. SOMERVILLE: Actually, Treasurer, I
14 put my hand up to second the motion. I'll speak therefore
15 very briefly.
16 I seldom think that a referendum or
17 plebiscite is useful. I think that we're elected to
18 govern the profession and to decide policy issues and we
19 have the ability to hear a great deal of research and work
20 of our committees before making our decision.
21 I think this is an exception, however,
22 because I think it's a matter to which frankly the opinion
23 of every member of the profession carries equal weight. I
24 predict that there will be a large percentage of the
25 profession who will wish to retain the name Law Society of
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1 Upper Canada. Indeed, it may be a majority.
2 If I were forced to vote today, I would
3 vote in favour of the change for some of the reasons that
4 have been expressed by Mr. Thorn and Mr. Topp and Mr.
5 McKinnon. But I think it's a reasonable proposition to
6 invite all members of the Society to express their opinion
7 at this time. I frankly see no down side to that.
8 I think the cost issue is a red hearing. I
9 think we would obviously phase it in over a period of time
10 and I see no reason to change the name on the spine of any
11 book in the Great Library. I predict all of that would be
12 of quite historical interest.
13 But I think that we can do this in a cost
14 effective way should the profession at large feel this is
15 appropriate. I think it's a way in which to engage the
16 profession's interest in the Society and I see no reason
17 why we would not want to ask their opinion in this matter.
18 THE TREASURER: Thank you, Mr.
19 Somerville. Mr. Farquharson?
20 MR. FARQUHARSON: Well, Mr. Somerville
21 said that as a governing body we should have the ability
22 to decide these matters. Surely it was demonstrated
23 recently that governments don't really appreciate the
24 position of the governed and that was very clearly
25 demonstrated in the recent Charlottetown Accord
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1 referendum. The people in this country have an entirely
2 different point of view than the government and all those
3 close to the government.
4 There's no doubt in my mind that throughout
5 the profession in this province, they do not ask for such
6 a change and they wouldn,t support such a change. When
7 these matters are discussed by Convocation, whether it's
8 Q.C. 1 S or the name of the Treasurer or the oath to the
9 Queen, the word anachronism is used from time-to-time.
10 It's trotted out and I take it that means that we,re not
11 up-to-date. Everything,s up-to-date in Kansas City and
12 they,ve gone as far as they can go. Are we to follow
13 suit?
14 Now, they don 1 t have any reason to change
15 the name of the Law Society of Saskatchewan because it was
16 always Saskatchewan or possibly "Pile of Bones." We
17 weren,t always Ontario. In the beginning I understand at
18 one time we were referred to as the Wilderness West of the
19 west boundary of Quebec.
20 MR. SOMERVILLE: Seconded.
21 MR. FARQUHARSON: And what a beautiful
22 wilderness it was. Lakes and streams. We became Upper
23 Canada I think around 1790, some 200 years ago. The first
24 legislative act was to call for an election for a
25 legislative assembly. Shortly thereafter there was an
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1 enactment to abolish slavery in this part of the world and
2 years in advance of such enactment in the rest
3 of the British Commonwealth, some 60 years before the
4 emancipation of the United States.
5 Within a few short years of our beginnings
6 we had to take on the invasion from the United States, we
7 took on the enemy in '10 to '21. And we succeeded. We
8 have a glorious past and it was all under the name of the
9 Upper Canada.
10 Now, I think I am told the oldest
11 corporation in the world is the Hudson's Bay Company and
12 it started back in the early 17th century, adventurers
13 into Hudson Bay. Since then they have branched out and
14 they have taken on different fields of commerce but there
15 doesn't seem to be any movement to change the name from
16 the Hudson's Bay Company. If you look at their letterhead
17 it says, "The Hudson's Bay Company, Established 1630" or
18 thereabouts, "A.D." just in case you get the idea of a
19 B.C.; they're very proud of that. They don't want to
20 change it.
21 When we started, and surely the Law Society
22 of Upper Canada must be probably the oldest corporation in
23 Ontario. And that was the same, and I suggest that
24 there's no reason to change or to turn our backs on that
25 name. It's something to be proud of.
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1 In my county, the first settlers were some
2 28 years after Simcoe came and the first Crown grants were
3 to veterans of the Battle of Waterloo, so that the -- we
4 shouldn't turn our backs on our history.
5 I suggest with respect to -- although
6 someone spoke with admiration of Governor Clinton or
7 President Clinton, some 59 per cent of the people voted
8 against him. And I suggest that if this was put to a
9 referendum, there would be an equal number if we could get
10 them out to vote.
11 THE TREASURER: Thank you, Mr.
12 Farquharson. Mr. Pepper?
13 MR. PEPPER: Treasurer, I feel as equally
14 as Mr. Farquharson about history but one reason I would
15 put forward for maintaining our name is that Canada has a
16 tradition of colourful and mysterious names and Upper
17 Canada is one of them. I find it very dull to change the
18 name to the Law Society of Ontario. If you look at the
19 Toronto phone book under 0 for Ontario, there are 15
20 columns of associations that put Ontario. For your
21 enjoyment I copied down one or two. The Ontario
22 Association of Bakeries, Ontario Association of Billiards,
23 Ontario Association of Bottled Water! Well, I got fed up
24 after B, but the next one starts the Ontario Association
25 of Concrete Blocks!
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1 When I look around this lovely province,
2 names that are magic to me and mysterious to some extent
3 because they're Indian names, like Muskoka, Temiskaming,
4 Kitigan, Kakabeka Falls and in Manitoba names like
5 Minnedosa and Neepawa and the Cree names in Saskatchewan -
6 that's all they have - the Saskatchewan River comes from
7 the Cree which means river. I find that Saskatoon - no
8 doubt Mr. Thorn knows this - is named after a red edible
9 berry that they have in that particular neck of the
10 country. Don't forget that in Saskatchewan they've got a
11 place called Moosejaw and next door in Alberta Medicine
12 Hat and a bit above that Yellowknife and in British
13 Columbia all those K's - Kamloops, Kootenay, Kitimat,
14 Kelowna.
15 A name like Upper Canada - the Lower
16 Mainland, they don't change the Lower Mainland, there are
17 many associations called by that - the Lower Mainland
18 Dairy or the Lower Mainland, this near Vancouver, and on
19 Vancouver Island there's a great lake Esquimalt and the
20 islands. (Inaudible) He came from that wonderful place
21 called Bumblebee Bite, Newfoundland.
22 It takes a dull man to want to change our
23 name. I really can't quote T.S. Eliot, but I can quote
24 another poet who said how "stale, flat and unprofitable
25 are to me all the uses of this life." And for those
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1 reasons, in addition to historic reasons which if there's
2 another debate I'd be glad to talk about, I am opposed to
3 the matter.
4 THE TREASURER: Thank you. Mr. Jarvis?
5 MR. JARVIS: Treasurer, I take a purely
6 aesthetic approach to this following closely on what Barry
7 Pepper has said. Aesthetic judgments aren't subject to
8 critical analysis and they have their own validity, if we
9 were to change the name, just try on in your imagination
10 now there's a special committee has approached the Federal
11 Government to ask for a special issue of a stamp and of a
12 coin, just try out this aesthetic aspect of it. Try on in
13 your mind, imagine the stamp with the proposed name.
14 Imagine the silver coin with the proposed name.
15 Briefly what I think you have is a very
16 valuable piece of intellectual property and you've had it
17 for a long time. Don't change it now.
18 THE TREASURER: Thank you, Mr. Jarvis.
19 Mr. Wardlaw?
20 MR. WARDLAW: Treasurer, I hesitate to
21 speak after Mr. Pepper has spoken because he has said so
22 much better the sentiments that I have, but I think that
23 there is no person in this room who is not able to
24 distinguish the difference between substance and form and
25 I think that we all know that what we are seeking is a
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1 change in form and in the long run it doesn't matter squat
2 what the difference is so far as the public is concerned.
3 But it's often been said that we don't know
4 where we're going if we don't know where we've been and
5 this is just one of those things to destroy a knowledge of
6 where we've been. It's one of those things that is a
7 change for the sake of change. It's not the sake
8 change for the sake of anything of substance.
9 Where is the Law Society of Upper Canada?
10 The statement was made that it's in a geographic
11 position. I suggest that that's wrong. I suggest that
12 the Law Society of Upper Canada is not in a geographic
13 position but rather that it's in the hearts and souls of a
14 great many of our profession and if it comes to it, I'm
15 going to support the referendum but for a completely
16 different reason. It's very hard for a person like me who
17 just barely got into the 19th century to try to catapult
18 into the 21st, but I have a concern about a legislative
19 change or, sorry, a concern about the change because it
20 needs legislative sanction so I suppose if it carries,
21 until we get the legislative change we've got to have on
22 our coins and our stamps and our stationery, "The Law
23 Society of Upper Canada carrying on business as the Law
24 Society of Ontario.
25 II It's pretty obvious that Art Scace makes
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1 all the balls and gets others to fire them because Scace
2 made this particular ball and then disappeared. So he's
3 not here to second what I'm going to suggest. But this is
4 nevertheless one that I haven't lobbied for a seconder,
5 but which I saw Mark Somerville use most effectively in
6 the last Convocation. I'm going to move to table both
7 resolutions.
8 THE TREASURER: Is there a seconder for
9 that motion?
10 MS. WEAVER: I'll second that motion.
11 THE TREASURER: The motion at the table
12 cannot be debated. That's right. So we'll put the
13 question. All if in favour of tabling the motions?
14 Opposed? Lost.
15 THE TREASURER: Mr. Lamek, then Miss
16 Peters, Mr. Copeland and then Mr. Epstein. Mr. Lamek?
17 MR. LAMEK: Thank you, Treasurer. We
18 heard history and sentiment and pride, all the murmur has
19 been on one side of this debate. I share the views of
20 history and sentiment and pride and I am very strongly in
21 favour of traditions that do no harm and if a tradition
22 can be demonstrated to be harmful, then I am as ready as
23 anybody to scratch it and move on to something that is not
24 harmful.
25 What concerns me, Treasurer, is that I have
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1 not heard a case made by the proponents of these motions,
2 Mr. Thorn echoed by Mr. Topp --
3 MR. TOPP: The dull fellow.
4 MR. LAMEK: advanced the proposition
5 that the name that we have causes confusion among the
6 public. I do not need to enlarge upon that. With the
7 utmost of respect, that's exactly what we need to enlarge
8 upon. I have seen no evidence of confusion of the public
9 from the use of this name and I do not know whether Mr.
10 Thorn or his supporters have any empirical evidence of
11 confusion. They've chosen not to make us aware of it and
12 they've asked us to accept it as self-evident truth that
13 the name is confusing. I for one am not ready to accept
14 their assertion as evidencing the truth. I have yet to
15 see a single soul wandering dazingly around Nathan
16 Phillips Square looking a Law Society of Upper Canada -
17 "I've come to the wrong place - I'm looking for something
18 else!" There isn't the confusion or at least there is no
19 evidence of confusion.
20 If there is confusion, it is over the term
21 "Law Society." Have you ever stood, Treasurer, or has
22 any member of Convocation ever stood beside the
23 receptionist who answers the telephone down by the east
24 door of Osgoode Hall? She has no trouble with the Law
25 Society of the Upper Canada. She has people wanting to
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1 have their lawyer's bills assessed, wanting to know if
2 they can get in touch with this department or that
3 service. What we do under the title "Law Society" does
4 not appear to cause confusion and it is a fact that we do
5 it under the name of the what this province used to be.
6 And so in my respectful submission, there
7 is no case made out on the basis of confusion. Mr.
8 McKinnon interestingly enough, although concerned there is
9 confusion, really happily talks about being a member of
10 the Advocate Society which may well itself be sufficiently
11 confusing.
12 MR. MCKINNON: Did I say Advocate? I
13 meant Osgoode. Would you change it, Madame Reporter?
14 MR. LAMEK: The other ground being urged
15 in favour of changing the name is the rush to modernity.
16 It's as though we'll all sitting around like Rocket
17 Richard saying, "Hey, I've got black hair now, I use
18 Grecian Formula!" It doesn't make him skate any better.
19 He's still an old man.
20 Changing the name isn't going to change how
21 we do it or what we do or, essentially, in my respectful
22 submission, how we are perceived by the public. They will
23 perceive us as being fuddy-duddies or modern, open or
24 secretive, high bound or open to change, not because we've
25 changed a name but because of what we do and in my
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1 respectful submission, we've come a very long way in the
2 very recent past to change the imagine that we project to
3 the public, and I have heard nobody say, "Ah, but what you
4 really need to do is change that imagine is change your
5 name. If you ever did that then by God, we'd believe you
6 were serious about being modern and open."
7 If it has to be, Treasurer, I would support
8 a referendum or plebiscite of the profession, but I fear
9 greatly that if this question goes to the profession
10 they'll say what are you people doing? Why are you
11 wasting your time and ours on this when there are far more
12 pressing demands on this profession than this?
13 If I have to vote in favour of one of these
14 motions it will be for a referendum. My preference would
15 be to vote against both of them.
16 THE TREASURER: Thank you, Mr. Lamek.
17 Miss Peters?
18 MS. PETERS: Thank you, Treasurer. As the
19 Chair of the French Language Services Committee for the
20 last year and a half, I must say that I have not received
21 one complaint from one single Francophone complaining
22 about the name of this organization. So I don't know
23 whether my friend Mr. McKinnon has received messages to
24 the contrary, but I certainly have not and I have attended
25 meetings with Francophones from all across Canada.
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1 Obviously this is an emotional issue and
2 the members, in my view, of the Law Society should have a
3 right to indicate to us what their views are.
4 I understand the difference between a
5 plebiscite and a referendum is you have to accept the
6 outcome of a referendum but we do not have to accept the
7 outcome of a plebiscite. If only 30 per cent of the
8 voters vote in a plebiscite, then it may not be
9 representative and we don't have to accept it and we can
10 then go to debate it, but I certainly feel that we
11 should find out what other members are thinking.
12 As a fall-back position and I must say this
13 was not my idea but that of Colin Campbell, with whom I
14 was speaking at lunch, there is also the suggestion that
15 we could consider calling the Law Society is the Law
16 Society of Upper Canada, also known as the Law Society of
17 Ontario, or I was hoping someone who knows about corporate
18 names could tell us as to how we could still keep the name
19 of Law Society of Upper Canada while indicating that we
20 could be referred to as the Law Society of Ontario.
21 THE TREASURER: Mr. Copeland?
22 MR. COPELAND: I'll be brief, Treasurer.
23 Mr. Lamek has said virtually everything I wanted to say.
24 What I noted down before he spoke is what the movers of
25 this motion are talking about is an appearance of change
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1 rather than reality of change. This vote is going to be
2 progressive and some of us have different views as to how
3 progressive it is - we'll have to do it by our actions and
4 not by changing our name.
5 On the issue of the referendum, I am quite
6 content to let the profession decide this issue. I agree
7 with Mr. Lamek that they may wonder why we are doing it.
8 If there are people around who feel it's appropriate to
9 have an expression from the profession on it, I'm quite
10 content that happen.
11 THE TREASURER: Thank you, Mr. Copeland.
12 Mr. Epstein and then Mr. Bastedo and Mr. O'Brien.
13 MR. EPSTEIN: I just wanted to point out,
14 Treasurer and fellow Benchers, the level of this debate
15 was probably the best level of debate we've had around
16 this table for a very long period of time and I want you
17 to envisage the members of our Society also debating it in
18 the same fashion.
19 I think this discussion is timely, I think
20 there is much to be said on both sides of the argument,
21 but the issue will not go away and it ought to be put to
22 rest and it ought to be put to rest in a fashion that
23 everyone can talk about.
24 Can you imagine the interest that would be
25 generated by having people like Mr. Pepper debate people
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1 on the other side of the issue in a public forum. I think
2 it's a very exciting prospect of the Society and they,
3 too, can get the benefit of this kind of debate.
4 THE TREASURER: Thank you Mr. Epstein.
5 Mr. Bastedo?
6 MR. BASTEDO: Treasurer, like Mr. Copeland
7 I will be very brief. I support the motion by Mr. Thorn
8 and Mr. Topp. In one sentence I believe that the name
9 which we have is exclusionary and does not encompass all
10 of the various aspects which is endemic in our Society
11 today and the Law Society has to reflect that.
12 With respect to whether it should be a
13 referendum or not, I am in favour of making the decision
14 today and getting on with it and if Mr. McKinnon would
15 like to give us his talk on the speech of Edmund Burke
16 before the electorate of Bristol for the fourth time, then
17 I have to defer to that. That is the reason why Edmund
18 Burke said we should decide they things here and we should
19 get on with it!
20 THE TREASURER: Mr. O'Brien?
21 MR. O'BRIEN: This problem has been around
22 for a long time. I was Treasurer in 1966 and there were
23 some letters about it and discussion. It never got very
24 far because anybody that we approached all said "you're
25 silly, don't touch it." This is the way it's been ever
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1 since but a curious thing is at that time, I looked in the
2 telephone book under "Upper Canada," and there were about
3 six organizations using the name: Upper Canada College,
4 Upper Canada Bible Society, the Law Society of Upper
5 Canada.
6 Today there are three columns of "Upper
7 Canada." It's become popular. It's a happening name.
8 It's going places. It's a distinctive name. If we
9 changed it to "Ontario" like the government, they'd look
10 for us in the blue pages at the back of the telephone
11 book.
12 Mr. Pepper has spoken much better than I
13 about some of the fine names in this country but he didn't
14 mention railways, and there was, when I was younger, a
15 railway in Ontario called the Temiskaming and Nothern
16 Ontario Railway. It was world famous. People came from
17 the United States to look at it. This name was great!
18 Similarly in British Columbia there was the Pacific Great
19 Eastern. It bore no relation to British Columbia, but it
20 was a great name. People came from all over the United
21 States to ride on it. The British Columbia government
22 changed it to the British Columbia Railway. We changed it
23 to the Ontario Northland and it is forgotten; they're
24 nothing.
25 Now, we have out in the main lobby of this
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1 building over the doorway of the library a plaster figure
2 and some years ago some American architects came here at a
3 convention and they came up here and one of them said with
4 astonishment, he says, "For heaven's sake, there's the
5 first depiction I've ever seen of the Coat of Arms of
6 Upper Canada!" They were all fascinated by this and it's
7 still there. It's so far as I know the only public
8 display of Upper Canada.
9 If you want to carry this to its logical
10 conclusion, we might as well change this from Osgoode Hall
11 to Dublin Hall or McMurtry Hall. It makes more sense.
12 I think it is necessary to get the
13 sentiment of the profession. If we don't we will be
14 attacked as a lot of old fogies who want to keep this
15 name. I can see both sides of this argument. There isn't
16 any ill will or ill feeling in this body because we
17 respect each other's views. But let's have the profession
18 at large - and I prefer a plebiscite to a referendum
19 because we have don't know the percentage of people going
20 to vote.
21 THE TREASURER: Thank you, Mr. O'Brien.
22 Are there others who wish to speak? Miss Palmer?
23 MS. PALMER: Treasurer, I rise merely on
24 the point that Mr. Lamek had raised whether there is
25 empirical data as to the recognition of our name and I'd
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1 like to remind members of the bench that the survey last
2 year, only 17 per cent of the members of the public
3 surveyed could name our name as being the governing body
4 of the legal profession in this province. 17 per cent.
5 So with respect to the access issue, I
6 would suggest that we should consider changing our name to
7 the Law Society of Ontario. We'll still be found under L
8 in the phone book and for that reason I support the views
9 of Mr. Thorn, Mr. Topp, Mr. McKinnon and Mr. Somerville and
10 Mr. Bastedo.
11 THE TREASURER: I think we're approaching
12 the point where we can put the questions. There are two
13 motions on the floor and let me get the sense of
14 Convocation as to which should go first.
15 MR. EPSTEIN: Point of order. I think in
16 fairness there has to be a third because otherwise people
17 like Mr. Pepper and Mr. Lamek are put in an impossible
18 position because they don't know whether they should vote
19 for a referendum or vote for the name change in fear of
20 what might happen. Perhaps there ought to be a motion as
21 to whether we ought to consider a name change. Otherwise
22 how do people like Mr. Pepper and Mr. Lamek ---
23 THE TREASURER: What I was going to
24 suggest, Mr. Epstein, we first deal with the Thom\Topp
25 motion, which means that those who doesn't want any change
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1 can vote no to that. Those who want a change can vote in
2 favour. If that doesn't pass I guess we could still go to
3 the second motion which has the possibility of a
4 referendum.
5 MR. EPSTEIN: What if it passes? People
6 on the other side have the same problem.
7 MR. THOM: The motion is steps be taken,
8 the first motion passes, then Mr. Epstein's motion will be
9 ready, that will be a step. But first of all is
10 Convocation generally in favour of that change; that is
11 the first motion.
12 THE TREASURER: I think I should put -- I
13 may be in a position where I have to put both motions in
14 any event. If I put the Thom\Topp motion first and
15 whether or not it passes I put the second -- I put the
16 second motion for the referendum. I think that's the
17 position.
18 MR. EPSTEIN: You can vote both for yes
19 and end up with a referendum.
20 THE TREASURER: You can do what you like
21 but I have to put both motions.
22 MR. MCKINNON: Treasurer, I call for a
23 role call on this one but second, I vote for an amendment
24 -- I move an amendment to the second motion or maybe the
25 mover would accept the substitution of the word plebiscite
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1 for the word referendum.
2 MR. EPSTEIN: I certainly won't accept
3 that. I'm opposed to a plebiscite.
4 THE TREASURER: For those of you who are
5 flagging, let me point out at my own point of order the
6 Treasurer's Ad Hoc Committee is meeting immediately after
7 and doubles be will be served. Miss Peters?
8 MS. PETERS: Since we can't persuade the
9 move to change the word, I'd like to move a motion that we
10 have the same motion but that the word "plebiscite" be
11 used.
12 MR. MCKINNON: I'll second that.
13 THE TREASURER: That will be the third
14 motion.
15 Okay. Let's put the motions then. First
16 motion is the motion at tab 2 of the book, moved by Mr.
17 Thorn, seconded by Mr. Topp and it's there to be read and
18 there's a role call vote on that. Mr. Secretary?
19 THE SECRETARY: Mr.
20 THE TREASURER: Mr. Thorn
21 THE SECRETARY: I was going to start in
22 the middle of the alphabet. Mr. Bastedo?
23 MR. BASTEDO: Yes.
24 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Bragagnolo?
25 MR. BRAGAGNOLO: No.
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THE SECRETARY: Mr. Brennan?
MR. BRENNAN: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Campbell? Mr.
Copeland?
MR. COPELAND: No.
THE SECRETARY: Miss Curtis? Miss
Elliott?
MS. ELLIOTT: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Epstein? MR.
EPSTEIN: Abstain.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Feinstein?
MR. FEINSTEIN: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Finkelstein? MR.
FINKELSTEIN: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Goudge?
MR. GOUDGE: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Ms. Graham?
MS. GRAHAM: I don't know. This has
been the hardest thing to vote on.
Okay then, I'm going to say no.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Hill?
MR. HILL: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Howie?
MR. HOWIE: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Howland? Mr.
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Krishna?
MR. KRISHNA: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Lamek?
MR. LAMEK: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Lamont?
MR. LAMONT: No.
THE SECRETARY: Miss Lax?
MS. LAX: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Mrs. Legge? Mr.
Levy?
MR. LEVY: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. McKinnon?
MR. MCKINNON: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Ms. Mohideen?
MS. MOHIDEEN: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Murray?
MR. MURRAY: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. O'Brien?
MR. O'BRIEN: No.
THE SECRETARY: Miss Palmer?
MS. PALMER: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Miss Peters?
MS. PETERS: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Scott?
MR. SCOTT: No.
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1 THE SECRETARY: Miss Sealy?
2 MS. SEALY: Yes.
3 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Somerville?
4 MR. SOMERVILLE: I changed my mind.
5 No.
6 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Spence?
7 MR. SPENCE: Abstain.
8 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Thorn?
9 MR. THOM: Yes.
10 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Topp?
11 MR. TOPP: Yes.
12 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Wardlaw?
13 MR. WARDLAW: No.
14 THE SECRETARY: Miss Weaver?
15 MS. WEAVER: No.
16 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Yachetti's gone. Is
17 there anybody that I've missed? Okay.
18 The motion is lost.
19 THE TREASURER: Sorry, the motion is lost
20 17 to 12?
21 THE SECRETARY: Yes.
22 THE TREASURER: Now, may I have the views
23 of Convocation whether the other motions do have to be
24 put, the two others?
25 -- Reporter's Note: Various discussion around the room.
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1 THE TREASURER: The motion was that steps
2 be taken and Convocation has said no steps should be
3 taken.
4 MR. MCKINNON: There are many who would
5 vote yes to the referendum.
6 THE TREASURER: I think I have to put the
7 next motion. I said I would. The next motion is that a
8 referendum be held without specifying time or the
9 question. And this was moved by Mr. Epstein, seconded by
10 Mr. Somerville, a referendum to change the name of the Law
11 Society of Upper Canada to the Law Society of Ontario and
12 to change the name of the Treasurer to the President.
13 That's the motion. Referendum on those questions. All
14 those in favour shall --
15 THE SECRETARY: You want a role call
16 vote?
17 THE TREASURER: We're going to call a
18 motion on the plebiscite as well. All three motions will
19 be voted on.
20 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Bastedo?
21 MR. BASTEDO: I'm sorry, would you repeat
22 the motion, please? I'm sorry.
23 THE SECRETARY: That the Law Society of
24 Upper Canada's membership be polled by way of referendum
25 to determine whether the name should be changed to the Law
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1 Society of Ontario and the title of Treasurer to be
2 changed to President.
3 MR. BASTEDO: Is there a request to have
4 another vote as well? I note no for that one.
5 MR. PEPPER: Treasurer, aren't we going to
6 look silly to have this vote after the last vote?
7 THE TREASURER: Mr. Pepper, I indicated to
8 Convocation at the outset that I was going to put all the
9 motions because some people might not want to initiate
10 steps but might want to consult the profession on the
11 subject. And I think the first motion was that the Law
12 Society should not itself initiate steps.
13 Now, we're voting on the question whether
14 we should put to the profession the question of a change
15 and let them decide. I think that's the only fair way of
16 canvassing all the issues that have arisen this
17 afternoon.
18 MR. PEPPER: Forgive me, aren't our
19 electorate going to say, what you people doing? We
20 elected you to make these decisions.
21 THE TREASURER: That was a matter for
22 debate and that point was made. That will be taken into
23 account as people vote on the motion on the merits. Is
24 this a point of order?
25 MR. MCKINNON: Point of procedure,
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1 Treasurer. I thought in terms of gradation the plebiscite
2 question would be the next in order.
3 THE TREASURER: I disagree.
4 MR. MCKINNON: That would reserve to
5 Convocation decision-making process of ---
6 THE TREASURER: I think we should proceed
7 now with the referendum vote. We have a vote in for Mr.
8 Bastedo.
9 MR. BASTEDO: My understanding made on a
10 point of order is a referendum is a decision-making
11 process. I vote no.
12 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Bragagnolo?
13 MR. BRAGAGNOLO: No.
14 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Brennan?
15 MR. BRENNAN: On that same understanding,
16 no.
17 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Copeland?
18 MR. COPELAND: Yes.
19 THE TREASURER: Miss Elliott?
20 MS. ELLIOTT: Yes.
21 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Epstein?
22 MR. EPSTEIN: Yes.
23 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Feinstein?
24 MR. FEINSTEIN: No.
25 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Finkelstein?
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MR. FINKELSTEIN: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Goudge?
MR. GOUDGE: No.
THE SECRETARY: Ms. Graham?
MS. GRAHAM: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Hill?
MR. HILL: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Howie?
MR. HOWIE: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Krishna?
MR. KRISHNA: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Lamek?
MR. LAMEK: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Lamont?
MR. LAMONT: No.
THE SECRETARY: Miss Lax?
MS. LAX: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Levy?
MR. LEVY: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. McKinnon?
MR. MCKINNON: For the reasons given by
Edmund Burke, no.
THE SECRETARY: Miss Mohideen?
MS. MOHIDEEN: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Murray?
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:MR. MURRAY: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. O'Brien?
:MR.. O'BRIEN: No.
THE SECRETARY: Miss Palmer?
MS. PALMER: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Miss Peters?
MS. PETERS: On the basis of the next
position that is going to put, I vote no.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Scott?
:MR. SCOTT: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Miss Sealy?
MS. SEALY: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Somerville?
:MR. SOMERVILLE: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Spence?
:MR. SPENCE: Abstain.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Thorn?
:MR.. THOM: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Topp?
:MR. TOPP: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Wardlaw?
:MR. WARDLAW: No.
THE SECRETARY: Miss Weaver?
MS. WEAVER: No.
THE TREASURER: The motion fails 20 to
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1 eight. The last motion, would you read that one, Mr.
2 Secretary, please?
3 THE SECRETARY: It's that the Law Society
4 of Upper Canada's membership be polled by way of
5 plebiscite to determine whether the name should be changed
6 to the Law Society of Ontario and the title Treasurer
7 changed to President.
8 THE TREASURER: Okay. And the role call
9 vote?
10 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Bastedo?
11 MR. BASTEDO: No.
12 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Bragagnolo?
13 MR. BRAGAGNOLO: No.
14 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Brennan?
15 MR. BRENNAN: Yes.
16 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Copeland?
17 MR. COPELAND: No.
18 THE SECRETARY: Miss Elliott?
19 MS. ELLIOTT: Yes.
20 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Epstein?
21 MR. EPSTEIN: No.
22 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Feinstein?
23 MR. FEINSTEIN: No.
24 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Finkelstein?
25 MR. FINKELSTEIN: No.
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1
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THE SECRETARY: Mr. Goudge?
MR. GOUDGE: No.
THE SECRETARY: Miss Graham?
MS. GRAHAM: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Hill?
MR. HILL: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Howie?
MR. HOWIE: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Krishna?
MR. KRISHNA: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Lamek?
MR. LAMEK: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Lamont?
MR. LAMONT: No.
THE SECRETARY: Miss Lax?
MS. LAX: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Levy?
MR. LEVY: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. McKinnon?
MR. MCKINNON: Yes.
THE SECRETARY: Miss Mohideen?
MS. MOHIDEEN: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. Murray?
MR. MURRAY: No.
THE SECRETARY: Mr. O'Brien?
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1 MR. O'BRIEN: No.
2 THE SECRETARY: Miss Palmer?
3 MS. PALMER: Yes.
4 THE SECRETARY: Miss Peters?
5 MS. PETERS: Yes.
6 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Scott?
7 MR. SCOTT: Yes.
8 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Sealy?
9 MS. SEALY: No.
10 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Somerville?
11 MR. SOMERVILLE: No.
12 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Spence?
13 MR. SPENCE: Abstain.
14 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Thorn?
15 MR. THOM: Yes.
16 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Topp?
17 MR. TOPP: Yes.
18 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Wardlaw?
19 MR. WARDLAW: No.
20 THE SECRETARY: Mrs. Weaver?
21 MS. WEAVER: No.
22 THE TREASURER: That motion fails 21 to 9
23 and if history is any judge and the cycles of history
24 repeat themselves, that should buy us five more years
25 before the motion is back. We're adjourned.
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1 -- Convocation adjourned at 3:30.
2 --------
3 This is to certify that
4 the foregoing is a true
5 and accurate transcript
6 of my notes to the best
10 Kim Neeson, C.S.R.
11 Official Court Reporter
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