The Entrepreneurs Radio Show 012 kenneth w. christian

THE ENTREPRENEUR’S RADIO SHOW

Conversations with Self-made Millionaires and High-level Entrepreneurs that Grow Your Business

Copyright © 2012, 2013 The Entrepreneur’s Radio Show Page 1 of 24

EPISODE #12: KENNETH CHRISTIAN

Intro: You’re listening to Diamonds in Your Own Backyard, the business owner’s guide to success,

inspiration, and community. Where each week you will hear fellow business owners share their

inspirational stories, strategies and moments of clarity that help them find success. And now here is

your host Travis Lane Jenkins and Sandra Champlain.

Kenneth W. Christian

Travis: Hey, it’s Travis Lane Jenkins.

Sandra: And this is Sandra Champlain. And we’d like to welcome you to Diamonds in your own

backyard. How are you Travis?

Travis: Hi Sandra. How are you?

Sandra: I am doing pretty well. I had an interesting 24 hours; I had a great telephone conference with

my publishers for the very first time. And I have every bit of nerve with me because it’s the first time

anybody has read my book besides my editor and the layout designer. So everything was going

through my mind, is it good enough, are they going to like it, oh I tell you, I’m my own worst enemy.

Travis: Oh, I know you are, that’s a terrible tendency that we all have. So how did it go? How did the

call go?

Sandra: They love it, they love every single bit. They thought the whole thing is put together masterfully

and they are putting a rush on the book, it will be ready in three weeks, so that the world can get the

message. So every bit of that so valuable just within me. It’s really, really good book so I’m owning that

and I am excited really excited.

Travis: Wonderful, we are gradually working on quieting that little negative voice, aren’t we? Hey,

remind us what the name of that book is, it’s a great title?

Sandra: Oh my book it is called “We Don’t Die, A Skeptic’s Discovery of Life after Death.”

Travis: That is a wonderful title and subtitle.

http://amzn.to/12GxnJY




Sandra: Thanks.

Travis: We have talked about setting up a place to where our listeners can request a personalize copy

from you. Are you ready to move forward with that? Do you want that set up in Travisandsandra.com?

Sandra: Absolutely, yes I will, yeah.

Travis: Great, great.

Sandra: Let’s talk about that after the show. Hey, can we introduce our guest because he rides along

with my inner battle in my mind. We have today as our guest, Dr. Ken Christian. Ken is a licensed

psychologist, who stands over the last 20 years helping adults, organizations and he has got a real

passion for helping children who passed their limitations and reach their maximum potential. He works

with kids and adults and organizations for fear of success, fear of failures, under achievement. He is an

author; he has published a book called “Your Own Worst Enemy, Breaking the Habit of Adult

Underachievement” and Travis it is translated into five different languages. He has also got a second

book, “An Invitation to Personal Change,” he has worked and cited in Psychology Today, he has been a

university professor, he is a speaker, he is a program developer, a leader, he is a mentor, he is just an

all-around, really extraordinary individual out to impact lives of so many people.

Travis: Wow!

Sandra: So it is my pleasure to introduce to you and our audience, Dr. Ken Christian.

Sandra: Hi Ken.

Travis: Hi Ken.

Ken: Wow! What a build up! I love that! I thought I want to meet this guy. He sounds good.

Sandra: Pretty awesome, isn’t he?

Travis: It’s all you Ken.

Ken: It’s great to be here, thank you so much. I got to say on the line this time and I was having a hard

time containing myself when you are talking about your book Sandra, I was just, Oh man I had to stick

a sock in my mouth because I wanted today, wow, good for you.

http://amzn.to/Y2oqLn

http://amzn.to/Y2oqLn

http://amzn.to/11iFXM3




Sandra: Thank you.

Travis: And I have read the book and it’s an incredible book.

Ken: Well, I’m sure it is, I mean with the title like that and a topic like that. And for that to really be dealt

with all the stuff that’s kind of then around about this after death experiences but I can’t wait to read it

either.

Travis: Right.

Sandra: Oh, thanks Ken. And not just that it’s like I covered grief which I know you know a lot about as

a psychologist but it’s a conversation that we are not taught, so I put people in and give them some

really great information about life after death, but I also educate them on the grieving process and how

to get back to into life. So it’s a neat book and I am very proud of it.

Ken: Well good and that make it have more legs and more substance that you do with the fuller sort of

a larger picture.

Travis: Yeah, yeah. good stuff. Hey, do you mind if we segue into Ken real quick?

Sandra: No, I’m happy.

Travis: Okay, great. So Ken our listeners are business owners, and I wanted to kind of give you the

floor and really let you take in any direction you want to talk about in relation to your business because

a couple of things I wanted you to give a little bit more of a background of your business, and of course

the name of the show is Diamonds in Your Own Backyard. And so what was the moment of clarity or a

turning point in your business where that completely shifted either your attitude, your business or the

success of your business?

Ken: Wow, great okay. You want me to start right there?

Travis: Yeah, yeah. Just tell us what are you passionate about your business right now?

Ken: Well, right now I’m sort of returning to sort of my first love and to that passionate moment when I

had the big epiphany, I was in private practice and had a great practice, I had a long waiting list and it




was very enjoyable. And with anything for me, I will love to find new ways to extend what I am doing

and so on. My business is financially secure and things really going really well.

Travis: Right.

Ken: And then in came this family to see me that started talking about their child, who had tremendous

intellectual gift and was failing in school getting straight D’s as a sophomore in high school and they

were just absolutely beside themselves and even on the phone before they ever came to see me. The

tension, actually just the puzzlement and the worry was so palpable. I felt the pain that they were

feeling because they didn’t know what to do. And the kid anything they tried wasn’t working. What

happened was I made some realization while I was with them about the way they were actually

communicating to their child about school, that I then later I realize were things that I have heard

before, I wound up eventually writing a book about adult and underachievers. And in that book I talked

about the way we limit ourselves by the way we talk to ourselves but also just the way we put our reality

together, about where were you are as people in the world, where were you are in relation to our

business, in relation to the market. And what I came to discover and feel so strong and I know within

myself as well but almost everybody I have ever met nearly no one says they are doing everything they

could for their potential. And most of them if they talk a little while they realize that they are the ones

who put the brakes on, they are on their own worst enemy, they stop themselves. That one epiphany

about this child and the way the parents were talking about school and achievement to have, led to a

great change in my business and a project that I run for ten years before I wrote my book about adult

underachievers. In fact, it was a success of my work with kids that led to my being on a radio program

on KQDFM and affiliate in San Francisco and that led to my working with adults because on the very

first time I was on and talking to parents about kids and adult called in and said I was that kid, can you

help me? It actually gives me goose bumps every time I talk about it but that then led to working with

adults that then led to the book that I published with Mr. Collins and it had a great run but that if you talk

about one an epiphany. There can be a moment when you simply see things in different way. I simply

shifted my focus and went from working with kids, families, a big combination to working just on the

issue of underachievement for the last 20 plus years.

Travis: Let me ask from the opposite side to make sure that I am getting a good grasp of this, when

you say underachievers, are you only talking about lazy people or are we talking about people could

this be business owners getting in their own way?

Ken: It could sure be business owners getting in their own way, for sure, for sure, for sure. That’s really

the biggest issue that I think this how displays out as adults. With kids what’s going on is, they start

testing the waters with all kinds of things without new freedom moving towards adolescence. And one




of the things they will do is they get little bored with school and they would balked at their schoolwork

and push a little bit. Really none of them are lazy because they are searchers and hungry for things,

they just want to do their own thing. And the parents don’t tell them specifically that school work is their

main focus and they must do well at it then they will drift away and do other kinds of things like they

online a lot, text their little thumbs and fingers away.

Travis: Right.

Ken: So there is a connection to what I learn but no more than a business owner who is the biggest

issue is fear of failure. There is nothing that stops achieving more than being afraid that if you stop out

there is no net underneath to catch you.

Travis: Right.

Ken: And yet everybody in business has to take risks. So if you go in the entrepreneurial route risk is a

part of the package and it makes sense not to go off halfcocked but there is a moment when you are

going to do kind of what I’m sure what you’ve done, Sandra what you’ve done, which is you got to act

something that is compelling because there are some passion in it or some opportunity that you could

see that maybe nobody else is seeing at that moment you take risk.

Travis: There are several different directions to give here. Number one, with the kid, with the teenager

or preteen, what I hear your saying is the lack of strong leadership from parents is the underlying cause

for them drifting too far and just becoming completely lost in the process.

Ken: Yeah, it’s definitely not that the parents are disengaged or they don’t care about the kid. These

parents care like crazy and in fact they become over engaged in the child’s specific success. They want

to help but they give the wrong kind of help. The help they give actually disables the child because they

wind up doing the kid’s assignments for them.

Travis: Or they coddle them too much.

Ken: Or they cut deals with the teachers, even try to get the teachers to give A is when the kid’s doing

B work. So it actually undercuts the sense of ethics.

Travis: Right. So to remove that, and a whole another terrible lesson there, they are teaching their kid

in the process. But if we move that to a business owner, one of the problem is we don’t have anyone

telling us what we need to do or give us that strong leadership, so then you shift to a completely




different problem which is if I remember it your saying what was it, with the business owners it was the

lack of the ability to take risk or fear failure is that what it is your saying?

Ken: Yeah, fear failure and then a fear to take risk will keep you frozen. You will stay in the plateau and

you keep just doing what you have always done. But one of the problems is if you’re not getting good

results, continually doing what you have done doesn’t lead you anywhere new.

Travis: Yeah, well we have had this conversation or the stuff which comes up with several shows and

I’m very big on right brain left brain stuff, I don’t let it drive too much of me but I do let it decide who

should sit in what seat in the bus in the company. And it’s just my observation that as right brainers are

much more okay with putting it out there with risking with the potential of failure, and left brainers are

not, you agree or disagree?

Ken: Yeah as a psychologist it gets more levels of discrimination that you could make but for sure the

deeper you got to be untethered from all conventional limits. To some of those, I mean these men are

wild and crazy some of them are systematic but within an organization but as you say, you need left

brained people to make sure that the books are in order and to carry out things in a systematic way. But

leaders are both charismatic and they see a bigger picture and that’s what is necessary for a business

to really move. And this is different at different times there is an early stage and there’s a more mature

stage and you need a different leaders at different times.

Travis: Oh great point. That’s something that very few people ever talk about. Can you go deeper on

that?

Ken: Well let’s talk about a business that’s really starting to take off, and it’s getting good customers

and it’s getting maybe a fairly high end product out, could be a software product whatever but it’s got an

extreme promise and so on. If you look like you are headed towards a million dollars income in gross

income, just what you are doing now is providing that. But if you get to 10 million or to a 100 million

there is a whole different set of layers you need in the company to make sure things stay on course.

And I think you need somebody who’s handled that kind of level before. I think Steve Jobs is an

interesting person for taking Apple to this one particular moment stepping aside and then coming back

having a slightly larger perspective and also knowing what to say no to, and who to say no to, and what

to say yes to. He actually transformed as a leader over that time that he was away but also became

very, very clear that it wasn’t going to take other people’s opinion for how to run things.

Travis: Right. Probably one of the best things that ever happened to him is getting squeeze out of his

company and going to build the other business and then coming back.




Ken: Exactly.

Travis: I have taken a business from zero to a million and then 1 to 3, and then 3 to 5 and then 5 to 10.

And each of this shows very, very different.

Ken: That’s really what I am talking about and then sometimes it’s not that common, it’s a rare

individual who can keep doing that and stretching and growing and there’s certainly out there but they

are unusual so Travis that’s very cool because you know how hard it is for somebody who starts a

small business as an entrepreneur to even let go of it and let people come in sometimes.

Travis: Right. And so my point of failure is when I got it to 10 million dollar phase, and nearly I really

wasn’t equipped to run my business because it’s not my passion....

Ken: Right.

Travis: Management of people is not my passion and there is just so many layers of things that come

along there and I think a lot of people think because they found the business because this is the way I

thought and I spoke with other people too. So they found the business that they always need a whole

the top position in the company.

Ken: Yes, yes.

Travis: And really at times you need to get out of the way and bring somebody in and let them run the

parts of the business they’re familiar with and you continue being the figure head or whatever it is that

you are extremely good at.

Ken: Well when you have consulted with as many businesses as you have Travis I’m sure you have

seen people hit that point whatever that is it could be less 10 million, but the business takes a different

shape and they are not really up to it and they will hold on and actually retard the development of the

company.

Travis: Right. It seems to be ego based or just not knowing what it is they don’t know the second level

of competence unconsciously incompetent about what it is they don’t know about the business at

million dollars.




Ken: And it is there and it’s what they have always done and I am not sure what’s going to happen if

they let it go.

Sandra: Well you guys are talking all about me can I also a copy in chocolate store that 21 years old in

Connecticut. And when I met Travis that’s exactly the place I was, I had this fear of I knew what I knew,

I felt like I should have known more and I should have been able to bring it somewhere else and so the

business started losing money. And when I met Travis he helped me design the perfect person that

should run that place. And sooner did we design that person and I started having some conversation to

a friend of mine. My girl friend called me and she says I think I know somebody you should talk to. So

for the last six months my business, this woman has become a General Manager, she absolutely loves

it and she has run much bigger businesses and has the goal of having a little factory somewhere else

off premises and a whole bunch of meetings and I just didn’t know what I didn’t know and that was okay

to let somebody step in and bring it to the next level but I am not a failure but I didn’t know that before.

Ken: Yeah, that’s a fantastic case of point, and by the way chocolate and coffee, boy I have been in

Connecticut I mean really good I would be in deep ...But going back to your example, it’s really

remarkable that I think of this Middle Eastern stories from the Sufi tradition about the village idiot who

didn’t know there is a number higher than 99. In a way in our businesses we can be like you mean

there is a number higher than 99 I mean you have been doing it for a long time and it’s going well. And

then it starts to go south and you can’t quite figure out what it is but it actually needs somebody who

has got a bigger, larger purview over the whole thing and you can’t get that from your experience, that’s

why well I got a lot of experience I run this for 20 years now. You got experience for 20 years but

teaches you there’s a way to do it then keeps you stuck there.

Travis: Right.

Sandra: Right.

Travis: That’s why it’s so hard to help someone that hasn’t been brought to their knees.

Ken: Oh boy, that’s a good one Travis.

Travis: Because there’s just like you said hey, I have been running this business for 20 years who

would better? Well there is a lot of people better.

Ken: Exactly.




Travis: There is a lot of people better, there is a lot of people who can do it better. But there is a touch

of arrogance and I know you have confidence to run your business and I appreciate that. I know that

there is a fine line there but until they have been brought to their knees and it’s crystal clear that they

need to find something new there is just not ready to listen the other way and they are not ready to hear

that there is 100 anything above 99 like what you were talking about.

Ken: Right, right.

Travis: Now there is one other computation of what Sandra is saying here also is the business had not

really grown to a level beyond her skillset it’s just the business is no longer a passion of hers. Which is

a difference of problems but she still needs somebody to run it, right?

Ken: Absolutely, she needed somebody to run it and it’s hard to leave something that is no longer a

passion but if it isn’t you lose your forward thrust, you lose your energy. My book could use me as an

example it came out 10 years ago, while I was excited to write that book always the place where I felt I

have deep unique contribution to make was with this communication with these parents and what

happened with their kids, when you talk to them about their passion, and talk to them about personal

choice and responsibility. I mean to get results that were unprecedented in 60 years of research

because 60 years of research show that you can’t really do anything with underachieving kids. In 14

weeks these kids went up 6/10 of a grade point under GPA and 6 months later 8/10 of a grade point,

well that’s really powerful, and that’s where I felt that I was making absolutely a unique contribution.

And so for the last 10 years it’s more of being with organizations and so on and I’m actually shifting

back toward I’m not going to let go of the stuff that I’m doing, but shifting back to that heart space

because I’ve got some new ideas, I even have worked with kids in fresher newer ways. So this is an

exciting time for me because it’s like I’m letting myself outgrow this skin that’s kind of contained me too

much for too long because I was like well I want to make good in this book. This book was published by

a serious publisher and now it’s this language and that language and it actually became a trap for my

creativity. So I’m stretching now. I’ve got to stretch the envelope and some people really just get a little

worried about that particular moment, I was for quite a while. It’s like well can I let go of it? Shall I let go

of it? I said wait a minute, I have this many followers, this many people in a mailing list. Well it’s like I’ve

got to refresh what I’m charged about in order to keep my personal creativity going, and to me, there

are greater things than the top line or the bottom line if I start to feel empty inside.

Travis: Right. And it’s scary if you have so much of your life dedicated to this one thing or this one

direction and you gradually find that you’re not actually excited about it. How do you make that shift?

How did you make that shift in your mind? Like okay, I built all this following and this business to a very

successful level. How do you get over the fear of shifting gears and to another focus?




Ken: Well what’s interesting for me Travis is I kept saying I’m going to do this. I probably said for 3

years, I also want to get back to my work with kids and I didn’t move and I didn’t move and something

inside me, I think cautionary, if that’s the word, was saying well, you got a lot on your plate you better

figure out how to do this. And yet, I didn’t figure out how to do it because I’m not that left brain. I can’t sit

down with a piece of paper and write a story. I love these people. They write a box here, a box there,

and a box there and then they got a flow. And it so not me to a fault, but I suddenly started talking to

people, all kinds of people who were way out of the field of psychology. Energy workers and all kinds of

experiences that they were having with yogis and that kind of stuff, and they started nudging me to

follow my heart. In one way or another, they never said it in so many words. It was like the time is now.

I decided at a certain point that I simply got to do something. I’ve been simply starting to do it and I

don’t have a safety net I’m just doing it and it’s got to be. It’s like a cancel point where it had to be for

me to stay firm to me. But I think part of the thing is when people are about to give up the reigns to a

business, they’re afraid some young whippersnappers going to come in and tell them everything they

did was wrong because they have a degree from Harvard and they are afraid of being shown up too.

It’s an antsy, uncomfortable position like somebody’s going to come up and say you could have done it

differently.

Travis: Right. We have a funny shift there are you there Ken?

Ken: I’m here.

Sandra: I’m here too. I’m feeling everything you have just described as that’s exactly what happened to

me. Because I had the fear of it wasn’t good enough how I was doing it, hearing and even talking to the

publishers yesterday. A “Well, thanks for submitting but it’s not what we expected.” I get that all right

there and nobody wants to feel made wrong from where I stand, and so that fear is so intense.

Ken: Right.

Travis: Well, let’s talk about; it sounds like some of your training is towards that inner voice. Is that

correct?

Ken: Sure, sure it’s what I accumulated in all the work I did in Psychotherapy. I just started realizing

that the voice there that people completely ignore.

Travis: And so now there’s this constant voice, Sandra and I recently went through some training and

they were talking about this constant negative voice that says you’re not good enough, you’re not smart




enough, you’re not attractive enough or whatever it is. And the training was that, that voice was formed

when you were a kid at 6 or 7 years old, and so that is your little self and I think there is a voice that is

your higher self that is I believe what you are talking about is what your true calling is whether it aligns

with your business or not. Am I correct?

Ken: Yes, I do feel that. I feel people sometimes have a childhood that actually bottles up something

that’s in them, even if they developed a negative voice, like they are self-attacking. They have a very

limited perspective of what reality is, and they wouldn’t know how. They are absent in mentoring or they

feel they are not an inside. That there is an inside knowledge that people have and they don’t have.

And sometimes that’s because it’s true. They don’t know the ropes. They don’t know how to make

different kinds of phone calls to people in that work or whatever. And being an individual independent

entrepreneur can be very isolating and less people deliberately reach out experience and cultivate

relationships with people who were doing something a little bit larger than they are right now. So that

they can learn how it gets done. Because there can be people with apparently self-critical voices. But

the I found that the voice of just actually not knowing, not getting it, not knowing where to start. Feeling

perplexed and maybe not wanting to embarrass yourself, or weeping way before with no looks in

landing bump on your nose. So I mean, I’ve done a few face plants because I’m not willing to wait and

yet at the same time I personally love to do things really really well by doing it all. So, it can be a break

on certain kinds of risk. I’m actually glad I don’t allow stuff to go out under my name that’s just crap, but

certainly I just did a 90 day challenge. I think both of you were aware of that. But I mean, I started

recording videos one a day in front of a camera and they were terrible in the beginning. I mean, I got

better and better. So I was willing to do that and there’s a way that we were willing to do that. Just

pursue, and actually that 90 day challenge was a catalyst for me to make some of most I’m making

now.

Travis: And so I’m like you, I’m fine with risk and I’m much better at calculating risk now that I’m 46

than when I was 26 for several reasons.

Ken: Including brain development, right?

Travis: Yeah

Ken: We all know that the brain only starts to mature at 26.

Travis: Yeah.

Ken: Especially when it is about calculating risks.




Travis: Everything else that came in those 20 years during that period also. Now, one of those things—

this is a weakness and strength of mind. I tend to go at things very aggressively, and so normally when

I miss it has the potential to be dussy. But I also tend to have some pretty good successes on the way.

Now, I don’t want to paint the picture that’s just blind archery here. A great case of point I can laugh at

now, but in a much more measure with my clients that I have very little risk aversion with myself. And I

send out a sales letter that I wrote, and I was really convinced that it would do well and I thought the

headline or one of the hooks was “If you had 1 shot…,” and so I decided I had this epiphany to put a

live round in the letter. Yeah, a live bullet. Now I had my guys check with the postmaster twice and they

cleared it.

Ken: Literally you put a bullet in your sales letter?

Travis: Yes.

Ken: I thought you were speaking metaphorically Travis. You’re a wild man.

Travis: I did it for a couple of reasons. I wanted it to be a lumpy mail. And they would say “What’s in

this?” and open it. Well I sent it out to 3,000 people.

Ken: Right.

Travis: And the Congresswoman Gabby Gifford got shot just as I mailed it all.

Ken: Oh my goodness.

Travis: And so everyone thought was being tasteless, and they were gone and I couldn’t turn it around.

And I got an incredible response, it was a bunch of negativity and the government came after me.

Ken: Ah huh.

Travis: It turns out you can’t do that. Well it’s a funny story now because everything got patched up and

no problems and no issues but I have a tendency when it comes to my own things to being very

aggressive. And so that pace and space at that time that tends to bite me. Have you got much better at

that with your own endeavors?




Ken: Yeah, I’m not quite the cowboy I once was. I do think there is something about realizing time isn’t

boundless and that just takes a while to start to occur. I think I remained inordinately inattentive to time

passing that’s the longest time. And there’s a way that you have to say that “Okay, sounds like a good

idea. But It would be good for this if it really work.” And take a second and a third look even if I am

much livelier in another time in my life to talk to 3 people. At least 3 people and get opinions on

something that I’m going to do, then you wait on what they had to say I like to think about it first, then

get some feedback then think about it again and then decide. It’s important for me to remain the

responsible party in my own mind and not that these guys told me. But I did some really cockamamie

things when somebody was my friend. If somebody came along with an investment and my friends

were doing it, I was doing quite well with my investments but I would take a chunk of money and put it

in because they were my friends. Now it’s like duh? I’ve done some really, I left money behind that I

could have, that I could use now. But it’s the kind of thing that took me a while to learn. It’s not all just

fun. There’s a serious quality that you have to think responsibly. But still in this moment with much more

calculation I’m taking this risk. A calculated risk moving away, not just dumping all the work I’ve done.

I’m consolidating, I’m thinking smarter, trying to be wise about how to do things. And I bet you that’s

what the change for most people who really start to move on and to throttle back to the raw risk taking

in composite with something else. So wrap a bullet twice or something. I was thinking of bullet points or

all kinds of funny things I could say when you were saying that.

Sandra: Ken can I ask you a question?

Ken: Yeah.

Sandra: Way back when you were a kid, and somehow you have developed into this extra ordinary

person and you found these diamonds in your own backyard your passion, can you tell us a little bit

about how you found your calling?

Ken: Wow. That’s intriguing. A school counselor, I went to see my high school counselor a year after I

graduated and then I said I’m majoring in psychology and as far as I know, the reason that I was

majoring in psychology is I took in my first year of school psychology classes and I kept on getting the

highest score in the test. I thought, “Gee, I know I’m interested in this, but I may be really interested in

this.” And then I liked the sound of it and liked the whole idea of it. Okay, I’m a major in psychology and

I declared that as a freshman in college in my very first semester, and I didn’t waiver a bit. And I also

knew that to do what I wanted to do was directly work with people meant that I had to get a doctorate.

Nobody in my family ever got a doctorate. That I just decided that I would do it and in some way it just

had a magnetic effect on me, the mind how it works it’s just way serious and intriguing. So I got to see

the high school counselor and I said “Oh, so you wound up in your father’s profession after all. Well my




father was a minister and the last thing that I wanted to do was. Honestly, the last thing that I wanted to

do was a minister in the particular denomination that I grew up in was in the church because I had a

father father. People were called by God to do this. So I would just sort of think that God, I don’t hear

the phone ringing it’s fine let’s keep trying. So I didn’t really want to do what he said. But I was amazed.

He was so like this was a guy I never heard a false note in my entire life, never from this guy. He was

so unwavering. So I learned that you could do things in an unwavering way from watching him and

being committed and that’s why doing a doctorate, I didn’t even give it a second thought that I would do

a doctorate. And like I said nobody knew how to do it but I do it in a very good job because I wasn’t an

insider that was planning in advance and thinking setting up letters and doing things that people could

get to the graduate school you want to go to, because I actually transferred 4 times as an

undergraduate. Every year I went to a new school. It was crazy. So I could have used mentoring that

and I did get mentoring when I was in graduate school. So it became a whole new world to have people

showing you the ropes that would change others than just the next class that you were going to take.

So Sandra, I have managed to mesmerize myself with the sound of my own voice so much that I forgot

much of the question. There was something about how did I develop my passion I think?

Sandra: No, it’s just great. You mean things are just coming up. I’m getting these sparks that are

popping out like you’re working out this and this. You just said the word mentoring and I think whether

you are a young adult or any human being or a business owner. Could you just speak about getting a

mentor because I think that there are many of us business owners that, like we’ve spoken about doing

the best we can and all that, but it is time to take the next step, the value of being mentored?

Ken: Well it just takes years and years of your time. There is nothing like somebody who’s ahead of

you and following in some way the same path you’re following. That tells you what to look out for on the

trail and also can guide you to resources. Yesterday I got on the phone with a friend of mine, that was 2

days ago and I said Harold this is what I’m doing. And he goes “Ratatatatat” like a machine gun, that’s

him, that’s my buddy and he goes that this, this, this and they were great ideas that I haven’t thought of.

So it’s like there is an interaction and he’s a business guy. So he thinks of connections in the world in a

different way than I do. I think he is right brain in some respect. But he’s very much in business for a

very long time.

And in private practice there was a time when I got started and even considered unethical to advertise

to make claims about what you did. And so when you get trained in an academic university for a PHD, I

have a PHD which is more an applied degree. You’re going to do this education, you’re going to write

this and you’re going to write that and there are all these things. A whole in quotation that’s going about

Mammon, God and Mammon, money and so on and yet, these guys were on an academic setting and

they take grants and they are quite comfortable. They have a good life. But you are not trained to go




after money so I could tell you that for me it was difficult at some point. They even talk about Internet

marketing. And it always has a side to it that makes me squeamish because there is a certain play on

people that makes me uncomfortable and it doesn’t feels best serves businesses but small business

owners don’t get into that kind of marketing and those kinds of problems they just think stepping up and

getting mentoring and going outside yourself, and it could come from even a local service club like a

rotary but I think if you aim a little above where you are. If you get comfortable with people at your own

level, you don’t fire what we call mirror neurons with other people that have different ideas. It turns out

that the brain when we are having a conversation with somebody they found that their tone of voice and

what they are talking about the very same neurons that are firing in our brains and they are firing in

theirs when they talk. Well you need to be talking to people then who will make you fire neurons that

give you a different whole scope in your outlook, in order to really grow.

Travis: Right.

Sandra: That is so valuable to here because as I mentioned I had huge growth in deciding to write a

book putting the book proposal altogether, actually writing the book and getting the publisher, and now

the books will be on hands on October 13 and all these happened by speaking with my co-host Travis

daily. So I became an individual that I haven’t known to be, and now I’m hearing that that is no

accident. It’s not just that Travis is a great guy, but I’ve been listening and he is someone well above

businesswise my success level and that’s just what happened. Ken, Travis and I talk a lot about why

we created this show. And to encourage business owners who are often as you can probably agree, we

are solo and lone rangers in our business. We have this show 1 to be able to listen to realize that no we

are not alone in this, to get some mentoring and get some advice and know that our guest has not been

to great places like success but also have been in lots of failures and so that people can hear

themselves in that. Although we encourage people to create their own mastermind we literally find a

group that there are some above you, some below your success level and like I’m really interested in

hearing about how the brain is firing, I never heard that before. That is fascinating.

Ken: Yeah. Well there are lots of people who will tell you that you need to hang out with successful

people in order for you to be successful. And it always sounds good but it’s like one of those bromides.

But this brain research on the mirror neurons means there is a neurological basis for hanging out with

people who will help you fire some neurons that’s not been firing it’s the real deal, this just came out in

the last 2 or 3 years at most maybe even shorter than that, and it’s fascinating work. It’s why being with

mentors is such a great experience and you know Sandra I’m guessing that you mentor Travis in ways

you don’t know because you formed up this partnership. But every time you have people on new mirror

neurons fire for you and for your audience. This is like a form of mentoring figure with all these people

talk. But you can’t, I don’t even know how you can pay for the value that good mentoring has provides




you and for that matter good psychotherapy if that’s something you want to invest in as in like life

lessons in a very structured environment coaching is fantastic because it’s so open-ended. But if you

want to know how to read your own palm as far as your own experiences, I can own several houses

with the money I’ve spent on my own psychotherapy, because I found somebody good and more than

one person who is good and it’s like an incredible mirror for you and then you get mirror and then you

get neurons that are firing it’s incredible. It’s an education that’s what people need is to never never quit

educating yourself.

Travis: Yeah, There’s the circle of 5, so I try to pay close attention who I spend time around and one of

the things that drives me crazy is there’s a lot of people that I care about that take advice from the

public that really shouldn’t be dispensing advice on the topic that they are giving. Because there are a

lot of people who will give you very serious advice about your business and your finances and none of it

are really based on empirical proof of good decisions. It’s all just hearsay and it drives me crazy that’s

why when you get surrounded by powerful people whether not just financially powerful but powerful in

whatever endeavor that matters to you. They require you to step it up and stay in their presence on a

regular basis. And you want to be able to offer something to this group because they are giving you so

many great things. And so there is just this incredible dynamics. I’ve done it with golf. I started playing

with this guy when I never played golf before, and I started playing with him and I beat him in the

shooting in the 70’s which really offended him. But he was the one who made it possible, because he

was so good that I could fast forward my results, and I’ve had that in so many other situations. Because

I had told my sister that I had paid 900 dollars an hour for a coach and she thinks that’s crazy but we

don’t get on the phone and talk about his kids and anything else or my kids and we talk about business

and we are very straight to the point and then we move on. But you hit it on the nose and if you want to

fast forward your results get a mentor, years and years of results.

Ken: You can save so much grief too. It’s not that you’re not running your business you are doing in a

certain level but you are not even noticing what else you could do that might make that business really

sing . And I completely am on board with people who say “Well look, I’m not interested in making 20

million or whatever. People have the right to simplify their life whatever they want. So there were a lot of

people who are frustrated and they are in a tiny little skin and they do really want to go out. They have

curiosities that are like a little itch they have something that seems to call them. They set it aside and

set it aside and that’s what’s really sad because I in my private practice have send people to go and do

ceramics. Not like do this certain ceramics I’m the doctor say. Suggesting and had because I saw that

in them something else would happen while they sat at the wheel and it did. So people need to explore

curiosity and sometimes they lead to some interesting business opportunities that are completely

unexpected. But I will tell you when I did this 90 day challenge I had no clue on all the collateral

influence that was going to happen. People talk about collateral damage in warfare; these are like




collateral benefits that came from doing this one kind of discipline. It was like all these opportunities

started opening to me. Because I think I was just more open to okay I’m moving forward and I’m putting

my ass on the line.

Sandra: And Ken what was your one discipline? Was it the video? A day?

Travis: Yeah, exactly.

Ken: Yeah. Yeah. Just doing a YouTube video and you know doing a YouTube video is more than just

standing in front of a camera, it’s getting it up to YouTube too. Which involves editing and a whole lot of

things where there were all these steps and I was, I don’t know if you knew the original. I was to have

written a 10,000 dollars check to the presidential library of a politician I did not admire. If I did not

complete 90 days I’d sign a paper with somebody.

Sandra: Wow.

Travis: Talk about motivation.

Ken: Exactly.

Travis: Was the prize inside the box, right? The prize was the discovery and the journey from in the

1990s.

Ken: Exactly.

Sandra: Ken something else is coming to my radar screen is you’re working with an adults and

children’s organization, there is a connection with another human being and like getting mentored that

we receive so much more in growth. I have found when I have mentored and coached people more so

in personal development than in business but I got to see a whole side of myself that I didn’t get to see

existed and in that. I got more confidence to take more risk, take more actions myself. Because some

of the words that I heard coming out from my mouth were “Wow, that’s genius.” And I think can you

speak a little about I mean somebody be selling widgets or something like that. But the value whether

it’s giving their time volunteering or you have a service based business that are working with individuals

the value of actually working with people and making a difference for another life.

Ken: Oh Yeah. I can’t tell you. I mean, to be a therapists and have conversations with people is very

interesting for me. A lot of people when I begin in practice and throughout, if I meet someone in a party




and would say I don’t know how you can stand to sit and talk to people with their problems all day. Well,

I didn’t sit and listen to people talk about their problems all day. The way they were referring to, some

friend got them on the phone and wouldn’t want to let them off and was whining. I have a professional

relationship with this people in which my job as I describe it to them was to hold back their attention to

something that they have just said a day before or in the last time too or to say this is not adding up. To

shine a light and what I got to do, what it was like for me to be in practice. What it must like to be a mid-

wife. I mean if I got to watch people dig down closer to that inner voice that you were referring to Travis

earlier. And experience things sometimes that cannot be explained, other things that you talk about with

Sandra and your work, things that aren’t easily explicable with the world as we had it pouched when we

grew up. But people would go to new places and experience new things and shed limits and be afraid

but there was time enough for them to integrate it. The weekend workshop, this massive water hose of

experience coming out, the fire hose information. They can work with that and developed it actually

stretch their skin and grow and that is massively wonderful if you’re on the giving side. Because you are

receiving in the moment you give if your attention is focused. Now I believe it’s in the level of focused

attention that growth happens on both side.

Travis: What do you mean by that?

Ken: Well, if I’m with you, were talking about something and if I’m totally shut down my brain chatter

and I really drawn into your words and listen to exactly what you’re saying and hear the implicit

communication not just the explicit communication. The actual engagement in that level of focus grows

a person internally this is what the east has always talked about focused attention. Because when you

said when you focus your attention to whatever before in 30 years before but it’s really learning it to

keenly focus on attention unto whatever degree possible and in a greater way control your own mind

and that is power. Its powerful, it’s not power like to wield against somebody or overtake somebody and

some people use that there is tremendous abuse power out there. But if you are an ethical person to be

with someone and to make that kind of intervention you were talking about where you can’t believe

what is full out of your mouth Sandra, that is the most amazing creative moment. So I would regularly

go home from psychotherapy session feeling high but I also didn’t like talking anymore.

Travis: Right, yeah I want to take that and apply it to this situation because it’s really hitting home with

me there’s something to dial it in. Sandra and I created the show because we do want to give back and

we understand the importance that business owners make to our community and we love business

owners. And so now I am surprised at the depth of relationships that is showing out for me. I am talking

to Sandra about this, let Sandra speak for herself but the depth of relationship I have with people like

yourself when I have an interview, this is a focused conversation, no drifting, no answering emails, no

focusing on anything else but what you are saying in diving deeper. And there is a surprising effect with




everybody that I have interviewed, I have a much deeper connection than I do with anybody else that I

spend one hour with just casually talking to.

Ken: Because the rules of small talk aren’t really there. When we started but when the agreement ... in

this conversation is that we want to go somewhere deeper and that we really care about what we are

saying, it’s not just that we are filling some time and looking at our watches. We are alive to this

conversation and our neurons are mirroring each other and this is how, I use this term and I use it here

and I think it’s misunderstood so I may come out with another term. But this is how I fall in love with

people, if I have a real conversation with somebody and then they reveal something of who they are

then something happens inside me where I feel closer whereas if I go through life and I only respond to

people for their function, I feel dried up.

Travis: I think it’s a good description, I think you need to keep that, it adds color to your life, doesn’t it

add taste. Even deeper and even after this conversation you can send me a message and say Travis

can you do this for me and I will do it. You are not like Facebook friend that I will bump in somewhere

not remember because I got Facebook friends I don’t remember who they are. There is deeper

relationship, is the same thing showing up you Sandra?

Sandra: Oh without a doubt I know from my past experience, anytime you engage with somebody in

conversation and ask them why they love their family, or their kids, or you get some talking about

themselves and what they really care about. There is some connection that is made they feel good you

will in turn share this moment like what you are saying Ken. When you are so intently listening to the

other person and right there in the moment, oftentimes we think or we have to think what to say next,

you don’t. Because if you are so in the moment with the person the right words come out of your mouth

and they are brilliant and there are things that need to be said. And that won’t happen if you are

thinking what I am going to say or how I am going to say this and so even being on the show today, I

find my mind want to go allow to Travis is smarter, more successful in business, let him ask the

question like that how it goes, and it’s like I purposely shut it off, and I just stay present to the words

that is coming both out of your mouth, and all of a sudden there is something there for me to say and

it’s brilliance. And it makes such a profound different relationships and I think has it take, learn new

things that we normally wouldn’t because engaging in any kind of conversation, even if the person

sitting next to you on an airplane there can be gold in that conversation and so you get ideas and

ultimately you can take new actions which ultimately lead to different results so all brilliant stuff.

Travis: You know funny thing for me is I thought I was going to be the one giving a gift to people and I

am the one that’s giving the gift.




Ken: Isn’t it that true. I want to ask you Sandra, are you aware what you give to Travis.

Sandra: I am, well some of the things, I don’t know.

Travis: We talk about that. Well, I am glad that you bring that up. We are kind of like two sides of a

coin, I think it’s one of the things that attracted us number one, when we had a very deep meaningful

conversation, she had it good, she could a variety of topics and also I tried to calculate or draw

conclusion based on multiple things and as I spoke with her it becomes obvious to me that Sandra was

not clear how much of a rockstar she was. And so I just come out and ask her, I say it is not obvious to

you is it and she said no. But the same token she has done the same thing for me, because I have

areas of weakness, areas where I need help in, she is an incredible connector, she can connect, she

can connect great people together and she also can initiate relationship with people very, very quickly

that is not a strength of mine, there’s so many, many other things that she supports and helps me on

and we realize we are really the two sides of a coin.

Sandra: Well, here’s one for you Travis, because I just put this out on national airways. Ken, Travis is

someone that has gone bankrupt and he has generated tens and millions of dollars and to him he’s got

the recipe and he’s like yeah, I’m just being who I am being and for me, for me I say that Travis is the

one to transform business in United States, I say that. I am going to hold on to that and he doesn’t

necessarily see that but he’s got the goods, part of the passion I have about creating this was just to

start drawing out some of the distinction some of other things, because there are things within this man

that can greatly impact the lives of thousands of people, and their families. So I want to hold him to

account, find out what are those distinctions are and I am the connector. And I know Travis sitting on

his office creating new programs and services, and his marketing techniques are great. And where the

value is going to come isn’t working with people and connecting him to those people that he can make

a difference with. So I am not letting Travis escape until he transforms business.

Travis: She walked those things up in me Ken.

Ken: Well, yeah, there’s a symmetry in most relationships that is really working and it was just a great

pleasure right now to hear about the particular symmetry that you have because if he helped you with

your business Sandra, you are actually helping him with what you see his mission is, and he is casual

about it on a certain way or it seems just ordinary and you are saying he is just extraordinary and you

need to get it out. And of course, I just heard you talk about for three minutes so I am not covering the

complexity of your relationship here. But I think that when people choose somebody to work with in a

business partnership, this kind of symmetry really needs to be there and it’s wonderful when each

person appreciates the other and it’s clear that you both do. And you recognize the same step the other




side of your coin does for the coin you are together and awhile. I have actually written about people

needing to look at what are their worst strength is and what are their best weaknesses because to me

our worst strength is the strength we over rely on because it’s so powerful then we want to do it with

everything it’s the muscle idea of hammers and nails. But it’s also that we often don’t treasure or value

that much that actually it is just water to us to fish and we are not aware of how a typical actually is that

some people don’t think that way or whatever and those are little hidden diamonds in your own

backyard.

Travis: Exactly. She pointed those things out, it walked me up so the comparison is the fish is in water

but doesn’t know that the fish is in water and to me these skills that I developed, where things that I

developed and really downplayed for many, many years. Of course you are extremely perceptive on

those fronts because of what we have been to each other. Listen we are running short on time, so we

need to start wrapping things up, I want to personally thank you for taking time out of your busy day. I

know you are very popular man and the value that you brought today has been incredible for our

listeners. So I want to thank you for that.

Ken: Well, thank you wow, what an opportunity to be on with you guys. So I was really looking forward

to it and I didn’t even know it was going to be this good. It was such a delight to have this kind of

surprises this kind of warm surprises where we go deeper than you expect.

Travis: Yeah I agree, Sandra you want to step in there?

Sandra: Well, there are two things, one is did we miss anything, is there anything else before we end

this said, you are passionate about that you want to share with our listeners. And the second thing is,

how people can find out more about you and who you are and what you are up to.

Ken: Well, I am a guy who fiddled with a lot of diamonds stuff things, there’s a lot that I am going to and

I am doing great now, including that I am getting ready to run a summit, an education summit that I

want to run in this educational season. I am talking to the leading educators because I think the

conversation about education is not being amplified like it should be by either party or either

presidential candidate so I am aiming to do that by late October and you will hear more about it and I

will tell what’s coming up so that’s one thing. The other question was, to see all the diamonds that are

in my backyard what’s going on, what was again the question?

Sandra: Oh the first of the two questions you shared that, the other was how do people find out more

about Dr. Ken?




Ken: You can go to www.maxpotential.com. My website is being revised right now at this actual minute

while we are doing this interview, it going to look like different soon, quite a bit different but it’s there the

materials there maxpotential.com and you can also got to www.kenchristianonline.com and that’s

where my blog is and some other things. But maxpotential.com is my main website. I have a Facebook

page and I just began tweeting. I am on Twitter now and so figure it out so we’ll see. You guys are both

on?

Travis: Yeah.

Sandra: We are, and after we post your interview on, we put all your connections so our listeners can

connect with you.

Ken: Okay on Twitter, I am @KenWChristian.

Sandra: Wonderful.

Travis: Yeah and we’ll put all that stuff up Ken so that they can just click on it and connect with you

directly with just one click.

Sandra: Yeah, and Ken I want to personally thank you too on behalf of Travis and our listeners. The

difference that you have made in the lives of so many people and even in this interview today you will

never see the impact because I think not only will it spread to our listeners, but they will use it and they

will be connected, and they will be in conversation, and they will get their mentoring and things like that.

You’ll never see the results but I want you to know that they are going to happen for giving us your time

and the end of the fun with our generous guest for today and we thank you.

Ken: Well, it has been fun and what you just said about me is what you do every time you do one of

this so it’s fantastic that you guys are doing this great thing for so many people and for yourselves as

well.

Sandra: Yeah.

Ken: It’s wonderful when we can do things that bless us and bless others at the same time.

End of Interview




Sandra: Right.

Travis: Alright as usual, you guys can go to travisandsandra.com to connect with us there. One of

things that we decided to do is once you go ahead and enter your information to the opt in box, I’m

going to send you my consumer guide but I think it’s really all that business owners need to be aware

when it comes to marketing and running your business and then I have created some videos that I think

are, would be really powerful to words helping you make changes in your business. So that’s something

that we decided to add in their as additional value for everybody listening to the show, and of course we

want to hear from you. So feel free to drop your comments in there and Sandra and I will keep an eye

on it, and we’ll communicate with you guys when we see those messages come across the board.

That’s all I got for today, so I look forward to the next episode and Sandra.

Sandra: Yeah, I just want to challenge everybody to take an action that you haven’t done before, being

in communication with somebody, look for your mentor and have a phenomenal rest of your day, thank

you.

Travis: Yeah, find yourself a mentor and take care.




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Small Business & Entrepreneurship