The McPherson– Bogard Debate · contain a full, true and complete transcript of my stenographic...

The McPherson–Bogard Debate

Aimee McPherson Dr. Ben M. Bogard

On Miraculous Divine HealingMay 22, 1934

Adobe Acrobat Version©1997 David Padfield • All Rights Reserved

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Adobe Acrobat edition of The McPherson–Bogard Debate, ©1997 David A. Padfield 1

Preface To The 1997 EditionWhen I started preaching the gospel of

Christ an older preacher, brother MaxDawson, suggested that I build my libraryaround debate books. At the time I was notreally sure why he made such a suggestion,but now the reasons are abundantly clear.Truth shines brighter when plainly contrastedwith error. Over the years I have become acollector of debate books—over 250 are nowin my library. Reading these debates hasserved to give me the boldness all preachersneed in presenting the gospel of Christ. Hav-ing engaged in several debates myself, I takejoy in preaching the gospel to the lost andshutting the mouths of false teachers.

Out of all the debate books I own theMcPherson–Bogard Debate is one of myfavorites. Ben Bogard was the greatest debaterthe Baptist church has ever produced. Bogarddebated many of my brethren and alwaysproved himself to be an honorable and worthyopponent. Baptist preachers of our day lackthe conviction their brethren had in days goneby. Aimee Semple McPherson was the founderof the Foursquare Gospel Church.

The McPherson–Bogard Debate has beenout of print for many years. I have wanted toput the book in print for the past few years buthave always been hindered by a lack of fi-nances for such a project. However, with the

advent of the Internet and programs likeAdobe Acrobat, this debate can once againserve to instruct many. My copy of the debateis extremely difficult to read due to the discol-oration of the pages, since the original wasprinted on rather cheap paper. I scanned theoriginal text in OmniPage Pro and thenbrought the text into Adobe PageMaker forformatting. The final product was then pre-pared for the Internet with Adobe AcrobatExchange.

Those schooled in typographic design willcringe when you see pages with words set inall capital letters (a major “no-no” in typogra-phy). I thought about correcting these wordsand phrases, but decided against it in order tokeep the original “flavor” of the book. As aresult, the only changes I have made havebeen in the area of punctuation.

This edition of the McPherson–BogardDebate is copyrighted. Permission is grantedfor you to reprint this book for free distribu-tion, providing the book is printed in itsentirety. Under no circumstance may copies ofthis book be sold!

David A. PadfieldZion, Illinois

June 16, 1997 [email protected]


McPhersonism, Holy Rollerism, Pentecostalism,Miracles, Divine Healing

◆A Debate With Both Sides

FulIy PresentedEld. Ben M. Bogard, Affirming That

“MIRACLES AND DIVINE HEALING, AS TAUGHTAND MANIFESTED IN THE WORD OF GOD, CEASEDWITH THE CLOSING OF THE APOSTOLIC AGE,” and

Mrs. Aimee Semple McPherson, Denying◆

DID SUPERNATURAL GIFTS ENDWITH THE APOSTOLIC AGE?

McPhersonites, Holy Rollers, Pentecostals, ApostolicsExposed

◆Elder Ben M. Bogard is pastor of the Antioch Missionary

Baptist Church, Little Rock, Arkansas and Mrs. Aimee SempleMcPherson is Founder of the Four Square Gospel Church with

headquarters at Angelus Temple, Los Angeles, California.◆

The debate was taken in short hand by Mr. J. E. Rhodes,Court Stenographer, of the Circuit Court of Little Rock, Ark.,

and published as spoken.

◆With an Appendix following the debate, giving

valuable information◆

This Book is republished by Vernon L. Barr, Pastor of SouthHarwood Baptist Church, Dallas, Texas by special permission from

Dr. Ben M. Bogard, Little Rock, Ark., Original publisher.

◆Price: 50 cents the copy; reduced prices on lots of 10 or more.

Order from—

ROCK OF AGESP. O. BOX 6155 DALLAS 2, TEXAS


STATE OF ARKANSASCOUNTY OF PULASKI

CERTIFICATE

I, J. E. Rhodes, do hereby certify that I am the stenographer whoreported the debate between Aimee Semple McPherson and Ben M.Bogard, held at the McPherson Tabernacle in the City of North LittleRock, Pulaski County, Arkansas, on the 22nd day of May, 1934. Ifurther certify that the annexed and foregoing typewritten pagescontain a full, true and complete transcript of my stenographic notesof said debate, to the best of my knowledge, and ability. I furthercertify that both speakers spoke for the same length of time, Dr. Bogardspeaking much faster than Mrs. McPherson. This is the explanationfor there being more pages of Dr. Bogard’s speeches than of Mrs.McPherson.

Given under my hand, this the 27th day of July, A.D. 1934.

J.E. Rhodes.

Subscribed and sworn to before me this the 27th day of July, A.D.1934.

J. S. Abercrombie, Notary Public.

My commission expires25th day of July, 1936.


This debate came as a result of a challengegiven to me by Mrs. Aimee McPherson duringher tabernacle meetings in North Little Rock.She had attracted a great deal of attention andmany were being led astray by her falseteachings. I preached against her doctrine bothover the radio and in my pulpit at the AntiochMissionary Baptist Church, where I am pastor.The newspapers quoted extracts from mysermons and Mrs. McPherson listened in overthe radio and she challenged me to come overto her tabernacle and debate with her. She saidbefore several thousand people and I heard hersay over the radio that, “If this preacher doesnot believe what I preach let him bring hisBible and come over here and I will debate itwith him.” A day or two after that I attendedher services and in substance she said: “Iunderstand that the preacher who said mywork is of the devil is in the congregation. Ifhe will prove by the Bible that miracles, suchas Jesus and the apostles wrought, are nolonger possible, I will close my Bible andnever preach again.”

The people understood that she had chal-lenged for a debate and I wrote her a courte-ous letter as follows:

“Little Rock, Ark., May 8, 1934.“Mrs. Aimee Semple McPherson,“North Little Rock, Ark.“Dear Mrs. McPherson:“In reference to my broadcast last Sunday

you seemed to challenge me or any one else tomeet you in debate on our differences. I mighthave misunderstood you but I listened in atyour service over the radio and it seemed tome that you challenged any one to meet you indebate. If I am mistaken I beg your pardon.

“Being a gentleman I would not think ofdisturbing your services. I believe in free

speech and free press and free radio. I wouldnot stop you nor any one else. I hate intoler-ance and love freedom of worship and free-dom of speech. I believe we should discussfrankly and honestly our differences and notpersecute any one because he may not agreewith us. I have somewhat of a reputation as adebater and debaters are always tolerant andfor that reason I tolerate what I do not endorseand try to show those who do not agree withme their error. I am willing to make that effortwith you.

“You said in your broadcast that you didnot believe in using the scissors on the Bibleand that you thought that all of it APPLIESTO US IN THIS AGE and for that reason youtake the Bible FROM COVER TO COVERAS YOUR RULE OF FAITH AND PRAC-TICE. Will you affirm that,

“The ENTIRE BIBLE, THE BIBLEFROM COVER TO COVER, IS THE RULEOF FAITH AND PRACTICE TO BE OB-SERVED IN THIS AGE?

“If you will so affirm I shall gladly deny itand you can name the time and place for thisdiscussion.

“Of course the debate should be governedby the rules of honorable controversy and havethe time divided equally between us. I awaityour answer.

“Sincerely,“Ben M. Bogard.”Mrs. McPherson gave the foregoing letter

to her representative and he came to my officewith the letter. Since I wrote the letter to herpersonally this gentleman could not have hadit in his possession and brought it to me unlessshe turned it over to him. He asked me if Iwrote the letter and I told him I did and hesaid that Mrs. McPherson asked him to come

Introduction


to me and negotiate the terms of the debate.He said that he would call me over the phoneat about five o’clock and tell me the results ofhis conference with Mrs. McPherson. He didnot call and I therefore addressed anotherletter to Mrs. McPherson as follows:

“Little Rock, Ark., May 11, 1934.“Dear Mrs. McPherson:“I have so far received no reply to my

letter in which I accepted your challenge todebate. Your representative came and broughtthe letter I wrote you and thus you answeredthrough your representative. But he did notcall me over the phone as he said he might andthus I am left not knowing whether you arewilling to face an opponent in open discussionor not.

“I attended your services last night andyou took particular pains to tell the audienceof my presence. I was made to hope that youwould stand by your challenge because yousaid, and were correctly quoted in thismorning’s paper as saying,

“IF THIS MAN (referring to me) ORANY ONE ELSE WILL PROVE BY THEBIBLE THAT THE DAY OF MIRACLESHAS ENDED, THEN I WILL QUIT ANDNEVER PREACH AGAIN.”

“That is exactly what I will affirm. Sinceyou have thus repeated your challenge andhave submitted the very words I shall be gladto use in my affirmation, you will please namethe time and place for the debate and we shallhave it. You will EITHER DO THIS OR ISHALL READ THESE LETTERS OVERTHE RADIO NEXT SUNDAY AND RE-LEASE THEM TO THE NEWSPAPERS whono doubt will like a story of this sort.

“I assure you that wisecracks and stuntperformances will not long deceive themasses. Thinking people will ask why youwill not debate when you made the challengeand it has been accepted. I await patientlyyour answer.

“Please have your representative phone meor call on me and we can arrange details. I AMONLY ACCEPTING YOUR CHALLENGE.

“You have been posing as an ordainedBaptist preacher. You are not an ordainedBaptist preacher and never have been. Thechurch that ordained you ceased to be aBaptist church and became a PentecostalChurch BEFORE it ordained you. I am per-fectly familiar with your record as I have spentmuch time on the Pacific Coast and havevisited Angelus Temple. I was there while youwere in the hospital under a good doctor andtwo nurses and I spoke over the radio from theChurch Of The Open Door and exposed yourheresies right there in Los Angeles. (Note: Seelecture referred to in the Appendix of thisbook). I have wondered why you use a doctorand medicine and surgery when you get ill andyet ask others to discard all these and expectthe Lord to work a miracle to cure them. I amnot guessing at what I am doing.

“Sincerely,“Ben M. Bogard.”This letter frightened her and she declined

to debate (so her representative told me)unless I would promise not expose her record,since I had told her that I knew her record andwas on the coast while she was making someof the worst of it. But I made the promise tolet her record alone and confine myself strictlyto the subject, leaving all personalities out. Tothis she finally agreed and the following wasagreed upon as the subject for the debate.

Resolved; that miracles and divine healingas manifested in the Bible ended with theApostolic Age.

We met at the appointed time and she hadher crowd of several thousand admirers wellorganized. They had been listening to her fortwenty-one days and were under her HYP-NOTIC control almost perfectly. They soughtto hoot and howl and BOO and cat-call insuch a manner as to drive me from the plat-


form. But they failed in this and the debatewas taken in spite of the effort to break it upby such disorder. I had chosen Eld. D. N.Jackson, of Texarkana, as my moderator andhe TRIED TO PRESIDE but the unruly mobof McPhersonites made it impossible for himto keep order and he had a difficult time inprotecting me so that I might speak my fulltime as the effort was to keep me from usingmy allotted time. Such disgraceful conduct onthe part of the McPhersonites showed whatthey regarded as religion. I was prepared for alot of disorder but I was not prepared for thevicious MOB SPIRIT that was plainly mani-fested by Mrs. McPherson’s followers. Theyseemed to think that noise, confusion, cat callsand BOOING, and insulting remarks shot atme from the audience was the correct thing todo and they made the most of it.

The reader may ask why I did not with-draw from such a mob and refuse to debateunder such conditions? That was exactly whatthey were seeking. If they could have drivenme off the platform they would have shoutedVICTORY and would have really thought thatsuch as that was victory. My purpose was toexpose the heresy and not to win such indi-viduals as were under the hypnotic power ofMrs. McPherson. I was making a book thatwould be read by thousands after the mob hadbeen silenced. Besides that I am no better thanPaul who faced fanatical mobs and was eviltreated and even mobbed by his opposers.Police protection saved me from violence andthe stenographer got what was said and thedebate is before you. You may read it anddecide if it was worth while to face the howl-ing mob in order to get BOTH SIDES beforethe public.

Mrs. McPherson is the founder of a newdenomination, known as the Four SquareGospel Church. Over three hundred congrega-tions of this new denomination have beenorganized and she is the recognized head of it.

Besides being the founder of this new reli-gious cult she is the best representative that allshades of that heresy have in the United Statesand possibly in the world. The people calledHoly Rollers, Pentecostals, Come-outers, andsuch like all teach substantially the same thingthat Mrs. McPherson teaches and when she ismet successfully all of them are met. Thisdebate becomes especially interesting andhelpful when it is considered that I have notonly met the Four Square Gospel heresy—butat the same time have met all classes of HolyRollers, Pentecostals, Apostolics and such likewho are spreading themselves all over theland.

Holy Rollerism, Pentecostalism, McPher-sonism are substantially the same differingonly in small details. Modern Miracles, DivineHealing, Speaking with Tongues and such likeare all exposed in this debate and the beauty ofit is that the BEST REPRESENTATIVE theyhave has presented their side. The debatetherefore becomes authority on this subjectand it can be used successfully in combatingthe errors connected with the heresy all overthe land.

The evil effects that come from this typeof religion shows itself in loose sex relations.All classes of them have a very large percentof sex immorality among them. They marryand divorce their husbands and wives. Theyare living in an atmosphere of emotionalismand it results disastrously in sex relationships.There is an unusual and exceedingly largepercent of sex promiscuity among their youngpeople as they follow the example of the olderones. A visit to the Arkansas Training Schoolfor Girls confirmed this decision for theSuperintendent, a very high class lady, told methat EIGHTY PERCENT of the fallen girlsconsigned to her care came from the homes ofPentecostals and other so-called Holy Rollers.The notorious scandals connected withMcPhersonism are so well known that it is


needless to recount them here. No doubt thatwas the reason Mrs. McPherson demandedthat I do not go into her record before shewould agree to debate.

Bob Schuler, the famous Methodistpreacher in Los Angeles, has exposedMcPhersonism in a book entitled “McPher-sonism.” If what he says in that book is nottrue he could be sent to the penitentiary forcriminal libel. But Mrs. McPherson has wiselychosen to not prosecute him. That book can beobtained from Bob Schuler, Pastor TrinityMethodist Church, Los Angeles, Calif., for 25cents and those who want to know the terriblestory can order that book. If this notice can bethe cause of thousands ordering that book Ishall be glad. VICIOUS SEX RELATIONS iswritten all over these Modern Miracle sects,and the terrible record of the Arkansas StateTraining School For Girls, as related to me bythe superintendent, shows the need for expo-sures such as this debate is.

The pretense of healing is fully exposed inthis debate and the Appendix, which followsthe record of the debate, gives startling factsthat need to be published all ever the world.They falsify when they make such big claimsand even if they actually did perform miraclesit would be by the power of the devil and notof God.

Every true preacher of the Word of Godshould help in spreading the exposure asfound in this debate. It should be a part of thebusiness of all good men to help exposeheresy, especially such dangerous heresy asMcPhersonism, Holy Rollerism, Pentecostal-ism and such like.

Sincerely and earnestly,Ben M. Bogard.


McPherson–Bogard DebateNOTE: Before the debate started, the

audience sang, “What a Friend We Have InJesus.”

High School Trombone Quartet.MRS. McPHERSON: Good evening

everybody. (Cheering.) I know you have beensitting a long time. We are going to try to saveyour strength and ours. We are going to comequickly to the debate. My opponent asked meif I would say a word just before the chairmanspeaks and that word is to be that the audiencemay express themselves by moderate applauseonly, I am calling on my friends. I know youwill do that if you love me, and I know thosewho love Dr. Bogard will do what he says. Hewill say a word to his friends. Everybody isentitled to hear both speakers and I am sure amost fair hearing will be accorded both. I willnow ask Dr. Bogard to say a word to hisfriends.

DR. BOGARD: I appreciate the fact thatMrs. McPherson requested her people not toengage in boisterous applause. I am certainmy friends don’t need it. (BOOING, cat-calling and gross disturbance followed by theMcPhersonites).

It is a fact that any mule can kick andmake a noise and bray but that is not argumentand if anybody thinks it is, that is just weak-ness on their part and I certainly don’t wantmy friends to engage in that sort of thing.Listen to Mrs. McPherson. Listen to what sheactually says. I suppose her friends will takeher advise and do the same toward me. (Ap-plause.)

CHAIRMAN: Good evening, ladies andgentlemen: It affords me great pleasure tonightto have been selected to act as chairman ofthis meeting, although I did not anticipate it. Iwant to read the agreement: Agreement for

debate by Aimee Semple McPherson and BenM. Bogard. “We, the undersigned, do herebyagree to meet in public debate Tuesday nightMay 22, 1934, at the McPherson Tabernacle inNorth Little Rock. The subject to be debatedshall be as follows: Resolved that Miraclesand Divine Healing as taught and manifestedin the word of God ceased with the closing ofthe Apostolic Age.”

CHAIRMAN: I now have the pleasure ofintroducing Dr. D. N. Jackson of Texarkana,Editor in Chief of the American BaptistAssociation Sunday School Literature who hasbeen chosen by Dr. Bogard as his moderator.

DR. JACKSON: I am calling Brother M.L. Moser, Pastor of the Central Baptist churchLittle Rock to lead us in prayer while westand:

REV. MOSER: “Our Heavenly Father, atthe beginning of this discussion we are here inyour power, we love thy word and the teachingof thy word. Father we ask tonight that thisdiscussion be one that will open our hearts andour minds to the truth, and when we receivethe truth we will be willing to walk in thetruth; we ask that Christian courtesy be ob-served, in thy name Father, we ask it. Amen.”

DR. JACKSON: Debating has been themeans of bringing to light truth and uncover-ing error which is its principal object, there-fore, we should be here tonight for the solepurpose of learning what the Bible teaches onthis important question. This seems to be ahappy climax to a question that has beenunder fire of questioning for a number ofyears. While we are to let the Bible be ourcriterion we should give prayerful consider-ation to the Bible talks as given by the twospeakers. It is my happy privilege, ladies andgentlemen, to introduce to you the affirmative


speaker tonight. The question has already beenread. The affirmative speaker is a man of wideexperience, a veteran in the field of polemics,he has had the distinction of having held moredebates than any other Baptist minister livingor dead. We put behind him unqualifiedendorsement. We have known him for years.We know him to be a champion of any propo-sition which he maintains. He is an authorityon the question of debate. He comes tonightwith the hearty endorsement of his people. Heis a man nationally known, and I will sayinternationally known as a writer, a speaker, alecturer and debater. It is my delight to intro-duce to you Dr. Ben M. Bogard, Pastor of theAntioch Baptist Church. Dr. Bogard.”

Proposition:“Divine healing and Miracles as taught

and manifest in the Word of God, ceased withthe Apostolic Age.”

Dr. Bogard’s First SpeechI most gladly affirm this proposition and in

order that we may understand what we mean Ishall define the terms used. Divine healing asseen in the Bible was without the use ofmedicine or surgery, direct, immediate, per-fect. Miracles were supernatural acts of Godsuch as turning water into wine, stilling thestorm on the sea, cleansing lepers instanta-neously, taking up serpents and not beingharmed and drinking deadly poison withoutinjury, and raising the dead. In Matt. 10:8, weread where Jesus sent his disciples out to“Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise thedead.” Our Lord told his disciples that theyshould even do greater works than he did,meaning greater in number, certainly notgreater in degree or power. The issue betweenMrs. McPherson and me is not whether weshould pray for the sick but the issue iswhether miraculous healing or any other kindof miracles can be had today.

A common argument, and one used with

tedious repetition by Mrs. McPherson, is thatthe Bible says “God is the same, yesterday,today and forever.” She has contended thatsince God never changes that therefore henever changes his laws, never changes dispen-sations, and continues to have the same rule ofpractice that he had all the way back. She hasnever learned that God does change hismethods while his character remains un-changed. If we are expected to take the wholeBible, Old and New Testaments, as our rule offaith and practice then we shall still be com-pelled to offer up animal sacrifices, such aslambs, bullocks, and red heifers. That wasonce the practice by the command of God. Weshall still be compelled to observe the Pass-over Feast, and observe all the temple ceremo-nies. But Mrs. McPherson will agree thatthose things have been done away becausethey were all fulfilled in Christ. Exactly. Theyserved their purpose and being fulfilled inChrist they were done away. There was theSeventh Day Sabbath, that was observed byGod’s command, that we no longer keepbecause in the New Testament we have theLord’s day or Sunday. God has not changedbut he has changed his laws and his methods.Even so miracles had their purpose and whenthe purpose for miracles was fulfilled thenmiracles were done away.

What was the purpose of miracles? Whydid Jesus and the Apostles heal the sick mi-raculously, and cleanse the lepers, and turnwater into wine, and still the storm at sea andraise the dead? The purpose of these wonder-ful miracles was to convince the people thatthe message brought by Jesus and the Apostleswas from God. Miracles were their creden-tials. When Jesus healed the paralytic man(Mark 2:1–12) he said he did it “That ye mayknow the Son of man hath power on earth toforgive sins.” I feel sure Jesus knew what hewas talking about and I am sure he told thetruth as to why he wrough miracles. Nicode-


mus was convinced by the Lord’s miracles thatJesus was sent from God because, he said,“No man can do these miracles that thou doethexcept God be with him” (John 3:1–16). Heb.2:3–4 says “How shall we escape if we neglectso great salvation, which at the first began tobe spoken by our Lord, and was confirmed bythem who heard him, God bearing witnessboth with signs and wonders and diversmiracles? What was the purpose of miracles?These passages say they were to confirm themessage of God. In Mark 16:20 we read, “Andthey went forth, and preached everywhere, theLord working with them, confirming the wordwith signs following.” Thus we see that thepurpose of miracles was to confirm the wordspoken by Christ and the Apostles. The pur-pose of miracles never was to accommodatethe ones on whom the miracles were per-formed. In 2 Tim. 4:20 we read where Paulsaid, “Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.”Why did he leave him sick since Paul had thepower to heal him? The answer is that Trophi-mus was already a believer and did not needthe miracles to confirm the word. Paul toldTimothy to “Take a little wine for thystomach’s sake and thine often infirmities” (1Tim. 5:23). Why did not Paul heal Timothy?He had the power to do it. He had the faithnecessary. Why then did he not heal Timothy?Because Timothy was already a believer anddid not need the miracle to confirm his faith.When the Bible was completed, when Johnwrote the book of Revelation the ApostolicAge ended and the Bible being finished, theWord of God fully confirmed, miracles wereno longer needed and like the animal sacri-fices of the Old Testament, and the Templeceremonials which fulfilled their purpose andwere done away, being no longer needed, sowith miracles, when no longer needed theywere done away.

The Bible plainly tells us that miracles,these supernatural gifts, were done away when

the New Testament was completed. 1 Cor.12th, 13th and 14th chapters is on the subjectof Spiritual Gifts. In the 12th chapter and firstverse we are told what the subject is. Here itis: “Now concerning Spiritual Gifts, brethren,I would not have you ignorant.” “SpiritualGifts” is the subject. In that 12th chapter atleast nine gifts are mentioned, such as healing,gift of tongues, prophecy, inspiration, calledthe gift of knowledge, and on through the list.In the 13th chapter we are told that all thesegifts were done away “when that which isperfect is come.” What is that perfect thingthat would come and at which time the mi-raculous would be done away? Some strangelysay that it means these gifts will pass awaywhen Jesus comes again. A student of Gram-mar who has studied Grammar so much asthree months knows that a personal pronoun isnot used here. It does not say when HE WHOis perfect is come, then the supernatural giftswould pass away but it says when “THATWHICH” is perfect is come. You can’t cor-rectly speak of Jesus as a “that which.” Whatperfect thing has come? The New Testament,which James calls “the Perfect Law of Lib-erty” (James 1:25). The New Testament, at thetime Paul wrote Corinthians was only “inpart” and Paul said in this 13th chapter thatthey knew “in part,” and prophesied in part,but when that which is perfect is come thenthat which is in part shall be done away. Thatsettles it. So long as the Bible was in processof formation, up until the last word in theBible was written, they only had the truth “inpart.” But when the New Testament wascompleted they had the PERFECT THING,the PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY, and thenINSPIRATION, prophecy, tongues, and allother miracles were done away. In Eph. 4:8–14, we read that the “Gifts,” these miraculousgifts, were to last “Till we come into the unityof the faith, and the knowledge of the Son ofGod.” That Unity of the faith is the New


Testament. At the time Ephesians was writtenthe faith, the knowledge of the Son of God,was in fragments, in part only, as Paul said inCorinthians, but when the New Testament wascompleted the KNOWLEDGE OF THE SONOF GOD WAS COMPLETE and hence theGifts ceased. These gifts, mind you, were tolast “TILL this knowledge of the Son” of Godwas completed, and that having been fulfilledthe gifts passed away.

Then what have we left? Paul explains in 1Cor. 13:13, “Now abideth, faith, hope andlove, these three.” Can you spell three? Canyou count three? Then you know just exactlythe number of gifts that remain. What arethey? “FAITH, HOPE, LOVE, THESETHREE.” If we still have the gift of healingthat would make four and if we still have thegift of tongues that would make five and if westill had the gift of prophecy that would makesix. But it does not say we have four, five orsix of these supernatural gifts left, but itpositively says we have JUST THREE andnames them, FAITH, HOPE, LOVE. It seemsstrange to me that any one can conclude thathe has four, five or six of these miraculousgifts when the Bible plainly says that onlythree abide in the church. God has notchanged. He is the same, yesterday, today andforever, but he changes his methods of dealingwith men, he changes his laws, and hechanges dispensations, and when he hasserved his purpose with such things as theJewish ceremonials, and with the Seventh DaySabbath, he sets them aside and starts some-thing else. So when he used miracles for thepurpose of establishing his PERFECT RULEOF FAITH AND PRACTICE, to confirm theword until it was fully written, then he setaside miracles also. HE IS UNCHANGE-ABLE but he changes his laws and methods asit suits him.

Why do we not need miracles now thesame as they needed them before the Bible

was completely written? Because the Bible isfully confirmed and preachers can be gaugedby the New Testament. You can tell whetherthe preacher is from God by whether hepreaches according to the written word andmiracles would be superfluous. How do weknow the New Testament is God’s word? Weknow it by several rules. The miracles re-corded are as much for us now as they werefor those who personally witnessed them. InMark 16:17, the passage used so much bymodern miracle workers, we read: “THESEsigns shall follow them that believe. In myname shall they cast out devils, they shallspeak with new tongues, they shall take upserpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, itshall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on thesick, and they shall recover.” What signs?THESE SIGNS. Not similar signs, wroughtover and over again, but these signs, the verysigns that the Apostles wrought shall followall believers all through the ages, not signs wedo but the signs the Apostles wrought, THESESIGNS shall follow clear on down to the endof time. We have every one of these signsrecorded in the Bible and wherever the Bibleis read these same signs are right there. Asurveyor surveys a tract of land and he makessigns of the land lines by hacking the trees andplacing corner rocks. Those signs remain onthrough the years to come. Any one can go tothat land and see the same signs that theoriginal survey made—the signs follow fromone generation to another. We do not need tohack fresh notches in the trees and set outfresh rocks on the corners from year to year.The signs FIRST MADE REMAIN and followon down through the years to come. So inestablishing the Bible, the original survey issufficient, the Bible is marked all over withGod’s approval. The original signs remain,they follow and are just as good today as theyhave ever been. No need for more. If there isneed for more then the Bible is not perfect, it


needs supplementing. 2 Tim. 3:16 says, “Allscripture is given by inspiration of God, and isprofitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correc-tion, for instruction in righteousness, that theman of God may be perfect, thoroughlyfurnished unto all good works.” If we areCOMPLETELY, THOROUGHLY FUR-NISHED FOR ALL GOOD WORK in theBible there is no need for miracles. If some-thing in addition to the Bible is needed tobolster up the Lord’s work, then the Bible isnot a perfect rule, it is short somewhere orsomehow. Those who use miracles or expectmiracles to be used show that they do notbelieve what God has said in his word, be-cause they demand further confirmation.

How do we know that the Bible is God’sword? We know it by fulfilled prophecy. Petercalls fulfilled prophecy the “more sure word ofprophecy.” The prophets foretold events thathave come to pass in such wonderful exact-ness that we can not doubt their inspiration.The scientific accuracy of the Bible proves itto be from God. It was written long before anyscientific book was written and yet there is notan unscientific statement in the Bible. We candemonstrate the Bible to be God’s word andhence we do not need miracles to confirm it. Itis already confirmed. It is a “perfect law ofliberty.” The man who demands miraclesshows he has no confidence in the Bible.

Since God withdrew the power to workmiracles from his people it follows that anymiracles wrought now are wrought by thepower of the devil and not by the power ofGod. Can the devil work miracles? He can. Ifyou will read the 7th and 8th chapters ofExodus you will find that when Moseswrought miracles, “The magicians did so withtheir enchantments.’’ In Rev. 13:13–14 weread that the beast deceived the people “Bymeans of those miracles he had power to do inthe presence of the people.” In Rev. 16:14 weread that it is “The spirit of devils working

miracles.” Jesus foretold that just exactly thissort of thing would be in Mark 13:22, “Forfalse Christs and false prophets shall rise, andshall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if itwere possible, even the elect.” In Acts 8:5–11we read of Simon the sorcerer who bewitchedthe people by his sorcery until the peopledeclared: “This man is the mighty power ofGod.” Thus we see that Simon did such won-derful things that the people were convincedthat he was the MIGHTY POWER OF GOD.We read also of Elymas the sorcerer in Acts13:6–11, who wrought miracles and led offmany people but Paul came along and calledhim a “Child of the devil.” Rough language touse against a miracle worker. Some of youmay think I am speaking roughly but don’tforget I am using Bible language.

The devil has the most attractive preachersin the world. Read 2 Cor. 11:13–15, “For suchare false apostles, deceitful workers, trans-forming themselves into apostles of Christ.And no marvel for Satan himself is trans-formed into an angel of light. Therefore nogreat thing if his ministers also be transformedas ministers of righteousness,” (“You are aliar” yelled a McPhersonite). I did not saythat. I read these very words in the Bible andyou called God a liar. God pity you. The devildoes not come with cloven feet and horns andbarbed tail and dark visage. He could notdeceive people that way. A counterfeit is notdangerous if the difference between it and thething counterfeited is glaring. But when thecounterfeit looks almost exactly like thegenuine, so much like it that very few peoplecan detect the difference, then it becomesdangerous. That is why the devil comes to usas an angel of light, he comes in the mostattractive form and even preaches righteous-ness. He even works miracles that benefitpeople to get them the more in his power. Ifthe Scriptures read do not mean this then theyhave no meaning.


Every heretical cult and church founderthat comes along comes working miracles.Why should not Mrs. McPherson? The Mor-mons have a large book printed telling of theirwonderful healings. These Mormons with ahalf dozen wives each come along healing thesick. Are they of God? Alex. Dowie, thefounder of the cult that holds forth with Volivaas their leader now, healed thousands ofpeople. Yet he was living in such disgrace thathis name became a stench in society. ChristianScience, that denies the existence of the devil,denies the existence of sin, comes alonghealing. So with all the Pentecostal, and HolyRoller sects, they come healing and talkingwith tongues and working miracles. Nowcomes McPhersonism exercising this samesort of deceitful powers. They all claim theBaptism of the Holy Ghost and power to workmiracles.

Do they work miracles? If they do theBible says it is by the power of the devil. ButMrs. McPherson says that if this is true thenthe devil has been converted and has gone todoing good works. Not at all. He is only up tohis old tricks, clothing himself as an angel oflight and if he does any good thing it is for anevil purpose in order to deceive the people andthus get them securely into his power. Are thepeople sincere who are deluded by suchdeceitful work? Read II Thess. 2:9–12, “Evenhim whose coming is after the workings ofSatan with all power and signs and lyingwonders and for this cause God shall sendupon them strong delusion, that they shouldbelieve a lie.” Are they sincere? Certainly. Sois the Hindoo mother who throws her babe tothe crocodiles to appease the wrath of herimaginary god. Are they sincere? So is theMormon woman who believes that her salva-tion depends upon her husband having severalwives. Sincere? So was Saul of Tarsus whosaid he thought he was serving God when hepersecuted the saints and brought them bound

into Jerusalem. The devil can deceive untilthose who “kill you will think they do God’sservice” (John 16:2). Sincere? Hear what theLord says of some who shall appear at theJudgment, Matt. 7:22, 23, “Many shall sayunto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we notprophesied in thy name, and in thy name castout devils, and in thy name done many won-derful works? And then shall I profess untothem I never knew you; depart from me, yethat work iniquity.” Surely these miracleworkers were sincere or they would not havetalked like that at the Judgment.

Mrs. McPherson declares that the Baptismof the Holy Ghost is what enables her andothers like her to work these miracles. Thebaptism of the Holy Ghost was miraculous.All of God’s people have the Spirit. The Biblesays that we are born of the Spirit, that we areled by the Spirit, and that we have the comfortof the Spirit. But the Baptism of the Spirit wasmiraculous and passed away with the Apos-tolic Age. How do we know this? Here is howwe know it. In Eph. 4th chapter we read, “OneLord, one faith, one baptism.” For a whilethere were TWO baptisms, the baptism inwater and the baptism in the Holy Ghost. Butwhen the baptism in the Holy Ghost accom-plished what God intended to accomplish by itthat baptism passed away. In Acts 2:38 whereit says the promise is “unto you and yourchildren and to all them that are afar off” it hasno reference to the baptism of the Holy Ghost.That is not what is promised but the remissionof sins and the gift of the Spirit is promised toall to the end of time. If we have water bap-tism, and Mrs. McPherson declares we have,she having stated many times during herprotracted meetings here that many thousandshad been baptized in water in Angelus Temple,then it follows that the Holy Ghost baptismwould make TWO BAPTISMS and Paul madea mistake when he said that there is only ONEbaptism. To suit the McPherson doctrine it


will need to read one Lord, one faith, andTWO baptisms.” Her whole theory of miracleworking depends on this unscriptural idea ofHoly Ghost baptism.

If I am right in my contention that thesemiraculous gifts have passed away, then whypray for the sick? I pass the question back.Why pray for bread? When we pray for breadwe go to work to get bread. That is right.When we pray for sinners do we not go towork and do all we can to get sinners saved?Certainly we do. Then when we pray for thesick, we should do all we can to bring themback to health. Since God made Peruvian Barkfrom which quinine comes and quinine killsthe malaria germs we should pray for the onesick with malaria and then give quinine, God’sremedy for malaria. When we pray for thepoor we should take our prayers along in abasket and pour it out in the pantry of thepoor. Two little boys were on their way toschool and one said, “We are late, let us getdown here and pray that we may get to schoolon time,” but the other said, “No, let us runand pray while we run.” Even so when wepray for the sick, let us do all we can for them,and since a good doctor knows more abouthow to help the sick than we do, we shouldpray and then call the doctor.

Paul had a bodily affliction, a thorn in theflesh, and he prayed three times for the Lordto remove that bodily affliction but Godrefused to do so, telling Paul that “My grace issufficient for thee.” (2 Cor. 12:7–10). If Mrs.McPherson had been there she would havetold Paul that healing of the body is in theatonement and that it is guaranteed like theforgiveness of sins. But Paul was not aMcPhersonite. He knew that healing of thebody was not in the atonement and for thatreason he said he took pleasure in his infirmi-ties which God refused to remove.

Job suffered agony with terrible afflictionbrought on him by the devil, God permitting

it. (See the book of Job). All the faith that Jobhad did not keep him from suffering. God wasworking out a great purpose in this terribleaffliction of Job. If healing of the body hadbeen in the atonement then Job would havebeen as well in body as he was in soul. Godsometimes has a purpose in allowing hispeople to suffer. Will he sometimes heal inanswer to prayer. Yes, just exactly as he givesbread to the hungry in answer to prayer, thesick get well and the hungry are fed in answerto prayer but both are done by the use ofmeans and not by miraculous power. Pray forbread and then hitch up old Beck and go toplowing. Pray for the sick and send for thedoctor. If we do as Mrs. McPherson teacheswe shall pray for bread and sit down and waitfor God to bake it for us and slice it and putbutter on it and drop it down from heaven.That is exactly what she does when it comesto praying for the sick. She advises the sick tothrow away medicine and refuse to use adoctor and just depend on the Lord to work amiracle. Can’t you see the absurdity of this?Can’t you see the Bible plainly says that themiraculous ceased when the New Testamentwas completed? Can’t you see that the powerto work miracles has been withdrawn fromGod’s people and that the devil’s people onlyhave power to work miracles? That is one wayto distinguish between the Lord’s people andthe devil’s people. The Lord’s people arewilling to accept the Bible as a PERFECTRULE OF FAITH and Practice but the Devil’speople positively refuse to believe the Bibleunless a miracle proves it to them. You shoulduse your brains and not be carried away bypomp and beauty and spectacular perfor-mances and miracle working.

Here are some questions I present to Mrs.McPherson to answer. If she does not answerthem the people will know the reason why.(Here the McPhersonites broke out in yells,saying “Put him out”).


1. Why do you go to the hospital and usedoctors and medicine when you get sick?

2. If other people should refuse to call thedoctor and take medicine as you instruct themand leave their healing to a miracle to bewrought by the Lord, why do you not practicethat?

3. If there is only ONE BAPTISM accord-ing to Eph. 4th chapter, why do you advocateTWO baptisms, one in water and one by theHoly Ghost?

4. Since the Gift of Knowledge has passedaway according to I Cor. 13th chapter why doyou claim to have direct inspiration fromGod?

5. Since it is specified that the gift ofprophecy shall pass away so soon as the NewTestament was completed (I Cor. 13th chapter)why do you claim to be a prophetess?

6. In your book “Lost and Restored,” page4, you say that “this booklet was given to mein vision and prophecy, under inspiration andpower of the Holy Ghost.” If so is that not inaddition to God’s Bible?

7. If you have added to the Bible how doyou escape the curse pronounced on thosewho add to God’s word? Rev. 22:16 says, “Ifany man shall add to these things God shalladd unto him the plagues that are written inthis book.” How can you escape this curse,since you declare you speak by inspiration,thus adding to God’s inspired word?

8. The Bible says that when prayer is madefor the sick that the elders of the churchshould be called in. Where do you find Scrip-ture for calling the sick to the elder in a publichealing service?

9. Since the elder or bishop must be thehusband of one wife how in the world can youqualify as an elder or bishop since you cer-tainly can not be a husband at all? See 1 Tim.4:2. (“Throw him off the platform. Put himout,” yelled many McPhersonists).

10. Did you not write in your book entitled

“This And That,” page 776, that God showedyou in a vision that you, Aimee McPherson,are the BRIDE OF CHRIST?

11. If you are the bride of Christ where dothe rest of the saints of the Lord come in?

12. If healing is in the atonement thenhave you not fallen from grace when you getsick?

13. Since you are in full control of theFour Square churches and personally own theproperty and appoint the pastors over thecongregations as you did when you estab-lished the Four Square Church in Little Rock,how do you miss disobeying the positivecommand in Matt. 20:25–26 where it says,“The princes among the gentiles exercisedominion over them, but it shall not be soamong you?” If you do not have dominionover these Four Square Churches, who has?

14. Why did not you heal the little Tacketboy who came up paralysed in his arm? Hisarm is no better.

15. Why did you not heal the little girl youbrought on the platform and took off herbraces and showed the people how she couldwalk without them? She has never been so shecould not walk a little without braces. But sheis in braces again.

16. Why did you make the palsied manwho lives on Seventh street go back and thusrefuse to try to heal him?

17. Why was not the insane man broughtfrom the asylum healed? He went back to theState Hospital worse than ever.

18. Why can you heal a mule you neededto work for you and the mule’s broken leg wasinstantly healed when you fail to heal the littlehelpless children who are brought to you? IsGod partial to mules?

19. My friend, Elder E. R. Harper, iswriting a book of the fake healings and hewants the names and addresses of those youprofess to have healed. He will investigateeach case and publish the pictures if possible


with doctor’s certificates. Will you have thenames for him? (Time out).

Mrs. McPherson’s First ReplyMrs. McPherson, after introduction, spoke

as follows:MR. CHAIRMAN, HONORABLE OP-

PONENT, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN:It gives me great pleasure to stand before

this splendid audience for a few moments toaffirm the facts strongest in my heart—Thatthe Lord Jesus Christ still lives and answersprayers for the broken hearted (cheering) andthe sick. These are days of great heart breaks;these are days when angels themselves mustweep tears over the balustrades of heaven overthis old world; these are days when nations arethreatening wars; these are days when thechurch, according to their own admissions andaccording to statistics have been steadilylosing ground. In many localities the churchesare empty and the pews deserted and the altarsare no longer used. These are days when theworld is making a track to the door of thechurch saying, “Oh, Church of Jesus have youany power? Is there no Balm in Gilead? Isthere no physician there? Is the arm of Jeho-vah shortened? Can he not answer prayers?”These are days when drug addiction is spread-ing through the land. They come and say, “OhChurch of Jesus can you help me? I havetaken this cure and that.” The church says “Iam sorry for you, but Jesus cannot answerprayer, he no longer works miracles. If thestate can not help you, if the hospitals can nothelp you, you will have to stand it, I am sorrythere is no miraculous power to cleanse youfrom your drug addiction or to work miracles,”but Oh, this is not true. (Applause).

Some years ago, Moses stood in thewilderness before a burning bush and fromthat burning bush came the voice of God andGod called him to go to Egypt and preachdeliverance to the captives and lead them to

the promised land. Moses cried, “If I go therethey will say ‘who sends you and what is hisname.’ What shall I say unto them?” These aredays when every minister who is called fromthe burning bush to go might ask the samequestion, “When I go down to that congrega-tion and tell them the truth about sickness,disease and heart breaks and they say whosent you? What authority brings you here?What shall I say? And the Lord may answerand say, “I Am hath sent me unto you. This ismy name forever, and is my memorial unto allgenerations.” And he would say, “I shall gobut if he says, I understand the days ofmiracles are over when creation was com-pleted; that the days of miracles are past; thatmiracles have ceased” you shall say, “No, I amthe God who delivereth thee, the God who stillanswers prayer.” But suppose they say to me“Miracles ceased with the flood”—In the 6thchapter of Genesis, “And the Lord said, I willdestroy man whom I have created from theface of the earth both man and beast, and thecreeping things, and the fowls of the air, for itrepenteth me that I have made them.” Theysay that a miracle took place in the destructionof Sodom, then what shall I say, “I Am hathsent me unto you this is my name forever evenunto all generations.” Amen. So Moses wentwith the name of the great “I AM” upon hislips. Divine healing is all through the Bibleitself. It is a mistake to think that divinehealing and miracles are ended and that all thedays to come are cut off, such things will nothold water in the light of God’s word.

When God made this earth and createdmankind he made it without sin and withoutsickness, it was perfect in the eyes of God andGod saw all he had made and pronounced itgood. With the entrance of the curse of sininto the world, God sent the curse of sickness.Christ came to take away the curse of sin andto heal. The curse was manifested in variousmanners. Thorns and thistles. Those thorns


which Christ wore on his brow. There will beno thorns when the lion and lamb shall liedown together. One curse was labor, manearning bread by the sweat of his brow;another pain and travail with which sons anddaughters are brought forth, and sicknessfollows and death. Christ came to take awaythe curse of sin, he came to end the curse, hewas “wounded for our transgressions and withhis stripes we are healed.” He wore the crownof thorns and the last enemy to be conqueredis death, which is yet to come. In the mean-time before he puts the enemy under his feetwe have the earnest of our purchase, which iseternal life.

The first man who prayed for the sick wasAbraham. We have to turn but a few pages, itwas one thousand years before Christ wasborn, Abraham prayed for Abimelech and hisfamily and they were healed. That was beforeChrist’s time, it was the usual rather than theunusual way, to pray for the sick.

We find when Moses led the Children ofIsrael out God instructed him to divine heal-ing. In Exodus we read the promise of God,“If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice ofthe Lord thy God, and wilt do that which isright in his sight, and wilt give ear to Hiscommandments, and keep all His statutes, Iwill put none of these diseases upon thee,which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for Iam the Lord that Healeth thee.” We find thatthere was not one sick on that trip. The nextthing to be done, the blood had to be put onthe doors and sickness and disease had beentaken away. Sin and sickness was from thesame curse and is relieved through faith inGod. One might ask the question, How couldthese people be healed and their sins forgivenbefore Christ came? Because time is only arelative term with mortal man but God’s willis infinite. They were saved by looking for-ward to Christ who was to come even as weare saved by looking back to Christ who did

come. That same hand is still reaching us heretwo thousand years from Christ. When Moseslifted up the serpent in the wilderness thosewho looked upon the serpent and who hadbeen bitten had life for a look. Christ said,“Even as the serpent was lifted up by Moses inthe wilderness, so must the Son of Man belifted up.” That is a double cure for a doublecurse. We find divine healing absolutelynecessary all through those years when theywere stricken with plagues. When Miriam wasstricken with leprosy and was put without thecamp for a period and taught her lesson, forGod does not answer the first moment, butwhen she came back she was healed. We findsuch man as Hezekiah, the King, was given achance to put his house in order, in order thathe should die. Many people say when the timecomes to die I shall die. This man turned hisface to the wall and cried out to God and Godanswered his prayer and sent Isaiah and said,Go back and tell him he is healed and I willadd fifteen years to his life. Isaiah put figs onthat boil and he was healed. There are manysuch instances, but I had rather draw yourattention to the fact that a departure fromdivine healing in the sight of the Lord wasunhealthy. We read of a man Ahaz who wasdiseased in his feet, the Bible says, “in hisafflictions he turned not to the Lord but to thephysicians and Ahaz slept with his fathers.”That is he died, they were dead. He turned tophysicians instead of the Lord. It was theusual thing to turn to the Lord.

In the New Testament we find healings inthe days when no man or woman preachedthis message. We find that God sent an Angelto trouble the waters. I simply mention this toshow that God was so anxious to heal the sickthat he didn’t heal the sick for any selfishmotive to advance his own cause. The NewTestament was not begun until Christ begunhis ministry. Christ Jesus came for the purposeof laying down his life for his own and to


bring a double cure for a double curse. Jesushad more trouble with preachers than anybody else throughout his ministry. (Applause).If he was here today he would still be havingthe same trouble exactly.

When they let the man down through theroof Jesus said, “Thy sins be forgiven thee.”These men jumped up and said, “You haven’tthe power to forgive sin, we believe you canheal the sick but you can’t forgive sins.” Jesuspropounded this question, “Which is easier tosay ‘Thy sins be forgiven thee or arise take upthy bed and walk?’” It is neither easier toforgive sin nor to heal, they go hand and handtogether. Our Saviour was to live after hisdeath and his resurrection. His wonderfulworks were limited only by the people, “Ac-cording to your faith be it done unto you,” andin one place we find “because of their unbeliefhe could not do many mighty works.” He said,not only to the apostles but to Dr. Bogard ofLittle Rock, “Go you into all the world” aslong as we go into all the world the sick mustcontinue to be healed. “Go you into all theworld and preach the gospel to every crea-ture.” No? Now, Dr. Bogard. Now as long asyou go into all the world and preach thegospel, as long as there is a creature in all theworld. Those twelve would never have livedlong enough to go into all the world, andpreach the gospel to every creature. I submitto this audience, who are the judges of thisdebate, that those twelve men could not havelived long enough to preach the gospel toevery creature. These signs shall follow themthat believe on my name; they shall cast outdevils, speak the new tongues and if they shalltake up serpents; and if they drink any deadlything, it shall not hurt them; they shall layhands on the sick, and they shall recover. Thelast words Jesus said was, “Lay hands on thesick and they shall recover.”

Probably hundreds of you are familiarwith the facts in the 3rd chapter of Acts as

Peter came to the temple he found a lame manby the gate called Beautiful and the man saidto him “Alms, Alms,” thinking he wouldreceive something. Peter said “look on us”; helooking, thinking he would receive alms andPeter said, “Silver and gold have I none; butsuch as I have give I thee. In the name of JesusChrist of Nazareth rise up and walk” and“immediately his feet and ankle bones re-ceived strength and he, leaping up stood, andwalked and entered with them into the temple,walking and leaping and praising God.”(Applause).

Let me in my closing ten minutes call yourattention to the point under discussion “Re-solved that Miracles and Divine Healingceased with the closing of Apostolic Days.”Therefore, you must see I must get out of theBible to endeavor to prove my point. There areonly two ways, one is by church history or byactual facts around about us today.

Justin Martyr in A.D. 161 testified to anumber of healing by prayer. I am quotingfrom research which appeared some time agofrom your own paper called “SouthernChurchman.” Martin Luther in the 15th and16th century testified of healing where theman whom he healed said, “I would be a deadman if Luther had not interceded by a miracleof God.” St. Bengol in 1708 says, “The Gift ofhealing seems to have been given of God thatit might remain always in the church.” JohnWesley in 1790, “I have brought up from theBible days until now”—writes of divinehealing. It is true John Wesley furnishedmedicine for the poor, yet he believed inprayer. Yet in 1738, May 19th his brother,Charles, had a second return of his pleurisy.“A few of us spent Saturday night in prayer.Sunday May 10, 1741 I was obliged to liedown most part of the day, being easy only inthat posture. Yet in the evening my weaknesswas suspended while I was calling sinners torepentance. But at our love feast which fol-


lowed, besides the pain in my back and head,and the fever which still continued upon me,just as I begun to pray, I was seized with sucha cough that I could hardly speak. At the sametime came strongly to my mind, ‘these signsshall follow them that believe.’ I called onJesus aloud, to increase my faith, and toconfirm the word of his grace. While I wasspeaking my pain vanished, the fever left me;my bodily strength returned and for manyweeks I felt neither weakness nor pain, Untothee, O Lord, do I give thanks.” There is somuch I would like to read. On October 3,1741, John Wesley, Founder of the MethodistChurch, said, “My disorder returned why did Inot apply to God in the beginning rather thanthe end of my illness, and I did so and foundimmediate relief.” In 1778, October 16th, “Ivisited one who was confined to bed unable toraise herself up, she desired prayer that thechains might be broken, we prayed and sheimmediately dressed herself and came downstairs.” I now skip a whole lot to show youwhere he prayed for his horse. I am so glad Ihave this book, I had to send telegrams andAir Mail and finally received it this afternoon.September 5, 1781, “where his horse was solame he could scarce set his foot to the groundit being impossible to procure any help I hadno remedy but to pray and immediately thelameness was gone and he went on just asbefore.”

There are all sorts of testimonies. A. J.Gordon, another fellow filled with divine love,believed in divine healing, also A. B. Simpson,founder of the Christian Missionary alliance.James M. Hix tells of praying for the sick;Andrew Murray, a very saintly man whosemessages and writings breathe the word ofGod, spoke firmly of the power of prayer; hesays if the church has lost the power of heal-ing it is its own fault, if she repents and comesback he would return to her. (Time out).

Dr. Bogard’s Second SpeechLadies and gentlemen I certainly feel very

happy to find my honorable opponent nottrying to disprove a single solitary argument Ipresented.

MRS. McPHERSON: That will come outin rebuttal next time.

DR. BOGARD: I am also very glad toknow she is a promising young lady, she isgoing to do it later.

MRS. McPHERSON: I don’t know if I amcorrect. The form of proper debate is to stateyour proposition in the opening and answer inrebuttal. Probably I am misinformed.

(Cheering and booing and cat calling bythe McPhersonites)

DR. BOGARD: The longer you act likethat the longer you will have to wait for thisdebate to close. It won’t embarrass me in theleast and it shows that you think Mrs.McPherson needs it. (Boos) If you don’t thinkshe needs it please cut it out. Do what sherequested you to do and not disturb me.

Mrs. McPherson began in the Old Testa-ment with miracles wrought by Moses comingon down through the Bible. There is no issuebetween us on this point, we both believe thatmiracles were wrought in the Old Testamentand in the New. The issue that she did nottouch and scarcely referred to is “does the Giftof miracles come on down to the presenttime.”

(In the audience: Yes)So you settle it by saying “yes,” that is the

way you feel about it, but that is not proving itby the Bible.

You can’t answer it by that sort of bally-hoo. We both believe miracles were wroughtin the Bible. I am contending and have provedto you by the Bible that miracles ceased withthe Apostolic age, to which she has made noreply.

(From the audience: She will)DR. BOGARD to MRS. McPHERSON:


Will you request those hoodlums to stop?MRS. McPHERSON: Let us listen to

every word Dr. Bogard has to say. There arethousands here who want to hear every word.

DR. BOGARD: Of course, they don’t hurtme the least bit. Every word that is being saidis being taken down in short hand to be pub-lished and all that stuff will be against thosetrying to stop me.

The issue between us is “Does the Gift ofmiracles continue to this day.” That is theissue. I showed you from the Bible “thesesigns wrought by the apostles and recorded inthe book. We have the record of them. You hadjust as well decide to have another survey ofthat piece of land over and over in order toestablish the corners as to say we have got tohave that confirmation of the Bible to continueon and on forever. Then my friend goesentirely out of the Bible and begins to quotefrom church historians. I listened at her ser-mon Sunday afternoon. She ridiculed thosewho believe in baby baptism. I can take thosehistorians by whom she proves divine healing,and prove baby baptism. I can prove not onlybaby baptism, I can prove the doctrine ofpurgatory—(From the audience—“Stick to thesubject,” and booing) I certainly have a rightto respond to what she said. I can take thosesame historians and prove anything, whydoesn’t she stay in the Bible? (From theaudience “how about your Bible?”)

If you want to turn this into a razzingmatch I have got a thousand people here toturn loose that can razz her down any time.

(Audience “Bring them on”)If you will be quiet I will ask our folks to

be quiet if you don’t before God they will razzher like you are trying to razz me.

When Mrs. McPherson appeals to thepersonal testimony of those who declare theyhave been healed it raises several questions.First, it is a fact eight out of ten sick peoplewill get well any way whether any thing is

done for them or not. Any doctor will tell youthat. That fact makes long odds in favor of anydoctor and certainly it makes long odds infavor of the Divine healers. If I can hang outmy shingle as a doctor or as a divine healerwith the certainty that eight out of ten of mypatients will get well any way, as naturerestores such people, then I am certain to beable to point to great success. I could point toeight who are well and could get out of thefact that the other two were not healed by thedodge that they did not have faith. But if theLord is doing the work there would be onehundred percent, success. He never made afailure and our proposition is that DivineHealing and Miracles, as taught and mani-fested in the Bible passed away with theApostolic Age. Mrs. McPherson claims tohave the same power that the apostles had andto do the same sort of miracles that Jesus didfor she claims that it is Jesus who is doing themiracles and not she. Then why any failure?Why the IMPERFECT cures where the sickone only claims to be better? The Lord’shealing did not make the sick one better butmade them entirely well. The blind were madeto actually see, the deaf to actually hear, andthe DEAD WERE RAISED. Why has Mrs.McPherson never raised the dead? Theapostles had power to raise the dead andexercised it.

When Mrs. McPherson fails to heal shetells us it is because the sick one did not havefaith. How much faith did the widow’s son ofNain have while he lay there dead? (Luke7:12) Jesus raised him from the dead. Howmuch faith did the daughter of Jairus have asshe lay there dead? (Mark 5:41–42) But shewas raised from the dead. How much faith didthe loaves and fishes have which a lad broughtto the big meeting when they were miracu-lously multiplied until the handful of food fedfive thousand men besides women and chil-dren? (Mark 6:37–44) Remember our proposi-


tion says MIRACLES as they were taught andmanifest in the Bible. Mrs. McPherson had ittold on this platform during her protractedmeeting here that a mule, that she needed sovery badly, got his leg broken and she prayedfor the mule and the broken leg was healedinstantly so that the mule went right on plow-ing. How much faith did the mule have? Heartbroken mothers bring their idiotic children,and still others their poor pitiful epilepticchildren. They want them healed and pray thatthey may be healed. Why do they go awaydisappointed?

There is one marked difference betweenthe miracles the Lord and the apostles wroughtand those that are wrought by the power of thedevil and we have seen it manifest in theseMcPherson meetings. Our Lord’s miracleswere perfect and complete and instantaneous.The devil imitates but does not quite reach upto the perfection of the Lord’s work. I saw aman the other night in this tabernacle who saidhe was healed of cancer. But when he came onthe platform to testify he still had the bandageon the cancer and said it was gradually heal-ing, that the hole was gradually filling out.The Lord did not do such imperfect work. HEHEALED PERFECTLY. So no matter howmany are paraded before the public as havingbeen healed in this campaign none of themwere perfect healings.

That there have been psychopathic cases,mental ailments, cured is no wonder for thesame sort of thing is done by mind curists allover the land. The mind teas powerful effectover the body. Down in Texas a man who wascrippled in a wreck was walking on crutchesand thought he could not walk without them.He was out on the prairie herding cattle and hetied his crutches to the horn of his saddle andcrawled down from the horse and lay down onthe grass to rest. The cattle stampeded and thehorse scampered away. There he was lying, ashe thought helpless on the ground and the

cattle coming straight toward him and in a fewmoments he would be trampled to death undertheir feet. He jumped up and ran without hiscrutches to a mesquite tree and climbed it andsaved himself from death. After the cattlepassed he walked a half mile and caught hishorse and never used his crutches any more.What was the matter with him? His mindneeded the shock. He believed he could notwalk without crutches and that belief enslavedhim. The cattle coming his way cured him.Was that a cattle cure? A lady had lain on herbed in her humble cabin for two years andthought she could not walk. The doctors didall they could for her and failed. One day shelay alone in her cabin and looked straightabove her at the loose board ceiling and therecrawled a horrid snake. She watched it interror and then all of a sudden the snake fellright in her face. She jumped out of bed andran out of doors. She never had her troubleany more. Was that a snake cure? So withmany who say they are healed in Mrs.McPherson’s meetings. They are mental cases.All such cases can be cured if the right sort ofaction can be brought upon their minds. Suchas that accounts for most of the so-calledhealings. Are the people helped by suchperformances? What of it? So are they helpedby the quack doctor who gives bread pills andpure water with some coloring in it to makebelieve that it is good medicine. The minddoes the work.

I attended Mrs. McPherson’s AngelusTemple services while she herself, the founderof the Temple, lay sick in a private hospitalunder the care of a good doctor and twograduate nurses. A big BAY WINDOWEDJew with spectacles on to help his defectiveeyes, and whose throat was so sore he couldscarcely talk, was doing the preaching as Mrs.McPherson’s substitute while the doctor wasdoing all he could to restore Mrs. McPhersonto health. That Jew was healing people. I saw


him. They claimed that all you needed to dowas to throw away medicine and doctors andsuch like and ask God to heal you and hewould do so. Out of sixteen who came for-ward for healing not one was actually healed.They limped on to the platform and limpedoff. But I kept wondering why the Jewpreacher did not have his eyes headed so hecould read without glasses. I kept wonderingwhy he did not have his sore throat healed sohe could use it in preaching. I wondered stillmore, until I almost spoke out, WHY IN THENAME OF REASON DID THEY NOTHEAL MRS. McPHERSON who lay at thepoint of death and lay there for weeks? Whydid they call in a doctor? Did not Mrs.McPherson have faith? Did not her worship-pers at that Temple have faith? Why then thedoctor and the trained nurses? When Mrs.McPherson had a terrible boil on her leg shehad a surgeon to heal it by lancing it. Why usea surgeon and why lance the boil? She did asensible thing when she used the doctors andthe doctors used medicine and the lance. Butwhy in the name of reason did she not dependon a miraculous cure? She advocates that forothers.

When Mrs. McPherson challenged me fordebate and I accepted her challenge and afteraccepting her challenge came very near notgetting her to go into it, she doing every thingshe could to squirm out of it, I did not thinkshe would be so unfair as to hold me up to herthousands of listeners in this great tabernacleand to the other thousands who heard over theradio as one who was trying to disturb hertabernacle meetings. I wrote her distinctly thatbeing a gentleman I would not think of dis-turbing her tabernacle meeting but since shehad made the challenge I accepted it andwould leave it to her to name the time andplace. She knows that this is true and yet sheover and over again declared that she wasbeing persecuted, that she had a lion to roar at

her and the devil was after her and that aserpent had bitten her and more such unfairand dishonorable things like that. Then sheresorted to ridicule and said she had nevereven heard of me and could not really remem-ber my name. If she had listened in while Ispoke over the great radio from the largestchurch on the Pacific coast, the Church Of TheOpen Door, right there in Los Angeles, shewould have heard of me. If she had read theBaptist & Commoner which for a time wassent in exchange with her weekly paper shewould have heard of me. If she had kept upwith religious work and workers she wouldhave heard of a man who has held morereligious debates than any man who lives orever did live, this being his two hundred andfourteenth debate. I am not responsible for herlack of information, BUT, AIMEE, dear, youhave heard of me at last and no doubt you willknow me next time you see me. I have neverchallenged you to debate with me but if youare not satisfied with this one I shall gladlymeet you in Los Angeles, right where you liveand where all the records concerning you areconvenient, and where I can use my personalfriend, Dr. Bob Schuler, who has been pastorfor twelve years of the great Trinity MethodistChurch in Los Angeles, for my time keeper Ihad a personal visit with Bob and we talked ofAimee and I have read all his wonderful booksexposing her and her work. I am ready for anykind of a contest you may name. I mentionthis personal feature in self defense. If I am tobe blamed for accepting her challenge thenBob Schuler, one of the greatest Methodistpreachers in America, is to blame for exposingher wicked work right there in Los Angeles.(Time out).

Mrs. McPherson’s Second ReplyPerhaps I have not been fully instructed in

the method of debates in the South. I haveread a number of rules on debates those rules


set forth first the affirmative should state theirposition, the negative should state their posi-tion then should come the rebuttal. I don’tknow whether Dr. Bogard has some other styleor not.

I find myself in a quandary. I listened toDr. Bogard. I have tried to follow him veryclosely. I noticed the first time I heard himspeaking over the radio he said if any one washealed—naturally he hoped there would notbe—but if they were it proved the person whoprayed was a devil. Then I heard him say heprayed for the sick. Oh, Oh, Oh Dr. Bogard!The only possible explanation of that is that heprayed but did not expect them to get well.

I would like to bring out one thoughtbefore beginning my rebuttal. He said I shouldstick to the Bible. Then it would be impossibleto prove that miracles continued after theBible. I have covered from the beginning tothe close of Bible days then took from Bibledays from A.D. 100 right down through andbecause I named one Catholic Priest, heargues about that one, he didn’t say anythingabout A. B. Simpson, A. J. Gordon, nor Dr.Frank Mayo, the original of the Mayo Broth-ers, who recognizes the power of Christ in thepresent day to heal the sick. The Episcopalchurch called a committee of which three werephysicians and Christian healing by the clergywas discussed and the board and physiciansbrought in the report, that Christian healing isnot a fad but the devout practice of many.Second, divine healing can not be questionedsays Dr. Frank Mayo by an unprejudiced man.3rd. Its results are found to be sure and lasting.

Now, then, as to some of the questions.First of all it has stated that the practices of theOld Testament should continue on throughtime if healing continued. This is hardly worthanswering. Christ said, and so did the apostles,the blood of both Goats and Heifers had beenoffered up to the time of the cross but Christshed his blood to take away the sins of the

world and no more bulls and rams have got tobe slaughtered alter that time. However, thehealings did continue and we find in James5:14—at the end of the Bible handing downinstructions for men of all times to pray for thesick. James 5:14, “Is any sick among you? Lethim call for the elders of the church; and letthem pray over him, anointing him with oil inthe name of the Lord.” James 5:13: “Is anyamong you afflicted let him pray. Is anymerry, let him sing psalms.” That don’t say theelders have to pray. You can pray for yourself.“If any sick among you let him call for theelders, let them pray over him “And the prayerof faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shallraise him up; and if he have committed sins,they shall be forgiven him.” and then again hesays, “By what authority did l pray, not beingand elder. I come in under the next versewhere it says “Confess your faults one toanother, and pray one for another, that ye maybe healed. The effectual fervent prayer of arighteous man availeth much.” I am one ofthem. I can pray, sick folks can pray, the elderscan pray and one can pray for another and amother can pray for her child. It is not re-stricted to the elders. As for the broken mule’sleg.

I remember one time a mule kicked andinjured its foot, we prayed that night and aftera few days the mule was well. It was a smallincident. My son was four and a half yearsold. I had forgotten it. It made an impressionon his young mind.

He asked me if I had heard of the deadbeing raised. I have heard of folks beingbrought back. I have read in medical journals.I never personally experienced it. I have beentoo busy praying for the living. I have nevercaught up on that yet.

He said the devil can head the sick. I havenever read that in the Bible. Perhaps I missedit. If the devil is doing these works then thedevil has certainly changed for men are crying


out, “have mercy on me, Oh God I have been asinner, let me be born again, they stop theircursing, swearing and are uniting with thechurch, is this the work of the Devil?

As to the gifts that are to pass away, in the12th chapter of First Corinthians I wouldremind you that the 12 gifts include Wisdom.Wisdom has not passed away. Another is thegift of knowledge, knowledge has not passedaway. One of these gifts is knowledge, weread “knowledge shall be increased,” thenshould not healing be increased? He saysprophecy has been taken away and the Biblesays “I will pour out my spirit on all flesh andyour sons and daughters shall prophesy.” Inthe 9th verse of the 12th chapter of 1st Corin-thians, “To another faith by the same Spirit; toanother the: Gifts of healing by the samespirit.” Without faith all things are impossible.Why pick on divine healing, why not takeknowledge. He says that when that which isperfect had come that which was in partpassed away. We are looking for that day ofperfection when the body shall be well andthere will be no more disease. I notice hespeaks about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.That is not the subject of the debate. I feel thepeople have a perfect right to say “Stick to thesubject.” But I think however it would perhapsnot be amiss to say one word. When he saysthe baptism of the Holy Ghost was done awaywith. We are living in the dispensation of theHoly Spirit, it began on the day of Pentecostand continues until the second coming ofChrist. In Act 2:38 we read, “Repent ye and bebaptized every one of you in the name of JesusChrist for the remission of sins, and ye shallreceive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” “For thepromise is unto you, and to your children andto all that are afar of, even as many as theLord our God shall call.” The Lord has calledus and promised us the Holy Spirit and Godknows the Church needs the baptism of theHoly Ghost today. He left out this verse, in the

beginning of the 14th chapter of 1st Corin-thians, “Follow after charity, and desirespiritual gifts, but rather that ye may proph-esy.”

Now, about the sanatorium, BrotherBogard said when I was ill I went to thesanatorium. I am living in the human body: Idon’t know how much work Brother Bogardhas done. For eighteen years I haven’t had onevacation. I broke God’s law “Six days shaltthou work—” I was working every daythrough the year. I preached and taught myschool an average of twenty-one times a week,edited a weekly paper, I bought the groundand built Angelus Temple seating 5,300 andraised the money without any help for theradio and Bible theological seminary; raisedthe money to build sixteen foreign missionarystations and maintain thirty-eight foreignmissionaries so I suffered a nervous breakdown, but when they thought my life wasdespaired of they put me in a quiet little roomin a sanatorium because my own home wasfilled. We had seventeen electric sewingmachines making clothing; we feed over twothousand unemployed and their families andthe noise was so great they thought my lifewas despaired of and they took me away andthe friends gathered and prayed to God and henot only raised me up and healed me but hasgiven me such an overflow of strength thatnow I hardly get tired. I call you as my wit-ness I have not spared myself in your city inthe midnight hours I have carried on. We havefound if all else fails God answers prayer andas John Wesley said “Why wait to pray at theend of our afflictions?” I feel that the prayersof my people raised me up.

He also says, if she does not answer thesequestions the people will know why. Hisquestion. If other people refuse to call a doctorand believe in healing why do you not practicethat? I do that every day of my life. I don’tthink a woman could work as hard as I have


except through the mighty power of God. Hisfourth question “Since the Gift of knowledgehas passed away according to I Corinthians13th chapter why do you claim to have directinspiration from God? It is not stated that way.It says “In the last days I will pour out myspirit and your sons and daughters shallprophesy.” That gift was put there to stay. Nextquestion: In your book “Lost and Restored,”page 4, you say that “this booklet was given tome in vision and prophecy, under inspirationand power of the Holy Ghost,” if so is that notan addition to God’s word? The 1st verse ofthe 14th chapter of I Corinthians says, “Followafter charity, and desire spiritual gifts, butrather that ye may prophesy.” What is it toprophesy? I Corinthians 14:3, “But he thatprophesieth speaketh unto men to edificationand exhortation and comfort.” “If you haveadded to the Bible how do you escape thecurse pronounced on those who add to God’sword?” I have not added to it, you were takingfrom it. “The Bible says that when prayer ismade for the sick that the elders of the churchshould be called in. Where do you find Scrip-ture for calling the sick to the elder ill a publichealing service?” The Acts of the Apostles isfilled with it. You take one instance wherePeter and John prayed for the sick, they cameto them in every direction until no buildingwould hold them and finally they had the sickon the beds and couches in the streets until theshadow of Peter passing by might overshadowsome. This wasn’t the elders going to thepeople. “Since the elder or bishop must be thehusband of one wife how in the world can youqualify as an elder or bishop since you cer-tainly can not be a husband at all.” I am not abishop and never made such claim, am only ahand maiden of the Lord. A mother can prayfor her child, a husband can pray for his wife.“Did you not say in your book, ‘This andThat,’ page 776, that God showed you in avision that you, Aimee McPherson, was the

Bride of Christ?” What I said was this, that thechurch was the bride of Christ. We are manymembers of one body whether we be Method-ist, Baptist, Presbyterians or Episcopalians.When all that bridal party came up andreached the Lord I saw myself taking thehumble place at the foot thereof. I know whereyou got that. Bob Schuler told it and talked soradically that the Government had to get him.“If you are the bride of Christ where do therest of the saints of the Lord come in?” Noone person is the bride, we are all members ofone body if we are washed in the blood ofJesus. “If healing is in the atonement thenhave you not fallen from grace when you getsick.” I remember it says “Who sinned thisman or his father.” Jesus said, “This is for theglory of God,” it is not for the glory of God tobe sick but to be healed.

“Since you are in full control of the FourSquare churches and personally own theproperty and appoint the pastors over thecongregations as you did when you estab-lished the Four Square Church in Little Rock,how do you miss disobeying the positivecommand in Matthew 20:25–26, where it says,“The princes among the gentiles exercisedominion over them, but it shall not be soamong you? If you do not have dominion overthese Four Square Churches who has?” Theproperty was my own and I incorporated it anddo not own one square foot of ground in thiswhole world: every bit of the money I have isin the incorporation and goes into church workand if I died tonight I have but a few hundreddollars. The Board—incidentally all menevery one of them—has control over theproperty. I am only the pastor. “Why did younot heal the little Tacket boy Who came upparalyzed in his arm. His arm is no better?” Ihave never said I could heal any one, neithercan I save any one. Not every one who comesto the altar is saved unless they cry out to God.“Why did you not heal the little girl you


brought on the platform and took off herbraces and showed the people how she couldwalk without them?” Because I understandtwo preachers went to her mother and told herthat divine healing was not for today anddiscouraged her.

My time is up, I will try again later. (Timeout).

Dr. Bogard’s Third SpeechMrs. McPherson says that I said over the

radio that those who prayed for the sick are ofthe devil and that I then turned around andsaid that I prayed for the sick. Then shedramatically said, “Oh, Oh, Oh, Dr. Bogard.”It is enough to say that I never said any suchthing at any time. But I did say that if amiracle is performed now it is of the devil.The issue is not shall we pray for the sick butshall we discard the use of medicine andphysicians and depend altogether on a miraclebeing performed to cure the sick. I think Mrs.McPherson knows this is the issue and that sheseeks to confuse the minds of the hearers bysuch dramatic suggestions.

She says she went to history to prove thatmiracles have continued since the apostolicage because she COULD NOT PROVE IT BYTHE BIBILE. What a confession! But whenshe went to history for proof of it the verywitnesses she introduced also testify in favorof infant sprinkling, and at least one of thembelieved in purgatory and some of thembelieved in baptismal salvation and otherseven believed in infant damnation. You canprove any absurdity by appealing to history. Iwent into this debate believing that we were totake the Bible as our rule and not history. Forthat matter you can get many to testify rightnow that they have been healed. Mrs.McPherson has such witnesses right here inthis congregation and there have been some inall ages who have so claimed. But that is onlythe opinion of men. Bible is our rule and if

they testify contrary to the Bible their testi-mony is false no matter what history you readit in nor who says it.

Mrs. McPherson quotes Dr. Mayo, afamous surgeon, to prove that God heals thesick. Glad she quoted Dr. Mayo. Dr. Mayo andI are in agreement because he believes inpraying for the sick and then doing all he canfor the sick by giving medicine and usingsurgery, while he prays. But that is on thesame principle as praying for bread, then go towork to get the bread, not sit down and waitfor God to work a miracle. She quoted JohnWesley who also used medicine along with hisprayers. But suppose Mayo and Wesley and allthe others believed that God still performsmiracles, as Mrs. McPherson contends, we donot have to accept their opinions. The Bible isthe rule, not these men’s opinions.

Mrs. McPherson’s bungling effort toanswer SOME of my questions was amusing.For instance she said if the GIFTS were doneaway as the Bible says they were when the“Perfect” thing came, meaning when the Biblewas completed, then the gift of WISDOM, andthe GIFT of Knowledge were done away, andshe adds that she understood that knowledgewould increase instead of being done away.Ordinary knowledge has increased with theincrease of education. But we know only whatwe have learned. But the “GIFT” of knowl-edge meant that one did not have to learn butit would be imparted to him direct fromheaven. Ordinary knowledge has increased butthe GIFT OF KNOWLEDGE has ceased withall the other GIFTS except FAITH, HOPE,and LOVE, THESE THREE as the Bible says.

Mrs. McPherson says that all she does is topray and that she never claimed the power towork miracles. But the PROPOSITION we arediscussing says DIVINE HEALING ANDMIRACLES and she is affirming that thesemiracles continue till this day and she has saidso over and over again. Then when I pin her


down she comes back and says all she does isto pray. If all we can do is to pray thenMIRACLES DO NOT EXIST NOW. InApostolic days they DID MORE THANPRAY. They wrought miracles, even raised thedead.

Mrs. McPherson says the reason she doesnot try to raise the dead is that she is too busywith the living. But Jesus and the apostleswere not too busy with the living to raise thedead. They were not so busy but what theyalso raised the dead and the very command ofJesus to his disciples was to HEAL THE SICKand RAISE THE DEAD. To raise the dead isin the same verse with healing the sick.

She says that if the devil is workingmiracles now he has changed because thatwould be doing good. You notice she has notone time even referred to the passages ofscripture I gave in my first speech where Ishowed the devil does work miracles. She hasnot even referred to the passage which saysthe devil clothes himself “as an angel of light”and that the devil’s ministers are “transformedinto ministers of righteousness.” Why is shesilent on these passages? Because she herselfis the best exemplification of that thing that ison this earth today.

The prophet Micah foretold exactly howlong miracles should continue, Micah 7:15,“According to the days of thy coming out ofEgypt will I show unto him marvelous things.”

The book of Micah is a prophecy concern-ing the coming Savior. The place of the birthof Jesus was foretold. Micah 5:2; “But thouBethlehem Ephrata, though thou be littleamong the thousands of Judah, yet out of theeshall he come forth unto me that is to be rulerin Israel.” His marvelous work began when heperformed his first miracle, at Cana of Galilee,when he turned the water into wine. It contin-ued all through his ministry and his apostlescontinued his marvelous work, even doinggreater works than he, until the Bible was

fully written, then the “marvelous things”came to an end. The prophet Micah foretoldEXACTLY how long the “marvelous things”would continue; “according to the days of thycoming out of Egypt will I show unto himmarvelous things.” The Israelites were fortyyears in their journey out of Egypt into theland of Palestine. Thus we see that from theFIRST miracle at Cana until the year A.D. 70was almost exactly forty years and no man canshow that a miracle was performed after A.D.70. Miracles ceased when the NEED formiracles ceased. Miracles were wrought toconfirm the word preached by Christ and theApostles. When the confirmation was suffi-cient, and the BOOK OF BOOKS was com-pleted then the miraculous ceased except asthe devil works miracles as the Bible foretoldhe would continue to do.

Thus in prophecy we are told in advancehow long miracles would continue and in theNew Testament we are told how long theywould continue, and the New Testament alsotold us that the devil will continue to workmiracles after that power was taken away fromthe Lord’s people. Yet in the face of all this theMcPhersonites and other Holy Rollers go righton claiming the power to work miracles. Butthere are some people on whom the words ofthe Bible have no influence. Alas!

Mrs. McPherson says that the Baptism ofthe Holy Ghost is not in this discussion. Iwonder why? Does she not claim, and do notall Holy Rollers claim, that they get the powerto work miracles by the Baptism of the Spirit?If I prove that there is only ONE BAPTISMnow, then either the Holy Ghost Baptism hasceased or WATER BAPTISM has ceased.Can’t both exist if there is ONLY ONE. ButJUST WHAT DID SHE SAY TO MY SCRIP-TURAL ARGUMENT ON THIS? I fail toremember and if those who read the debatewill search for it I think they will find that sheleft it severely alone. She did say we are living


in the dispensation of the Spirit and that ofcourse we still have the Holy Spirit and thisnobody denies. But it is not the BIRTH of theSpirit, it is not the COMFORT of the Spirit, itis not the LEADERSHIP of the Spirit that weare discussing. It is the BAPTISM of the Spiritthat we are discussing, and that particularfeature of the work of the Spirit passed awaywith the Apostolic Age.

Mrs. McPherson acknowledges that shedid get sick and that she was placed in asanitarium and that she did have a good doctorand nurses but she contends that PRAYERCAUSED A MIRACLE to be wrought in herand now she is well. Sakes alive, why all thatgoing to the hospital and why the doctors? Sherecommends that others discard all such asthat and not do one thing except to pray andthat the Lord will miraculously heal in answerto prayer. That’s what she recommends toothers. Why did she not practice it herself?

The promise in Acts 2:38 is not the bap-tism of the Holy Ghost but it is remission ofsins. The promise to all them that are “afaroff” is that when they repent they will besaved, they will obtain the remission of theirsins.

In the very last part of her speech she saidthat the man born blind was for the purposethat God might be glorified and that neither henor his parents had sinned. Thank you. Sothen all sickness and bodily infirmity is NOTOF THE DEVIL. Some of these bodily afflic-tions are for the glory of God. Thank you.Then healing is not in the atonement. Then tobe sick is not evidence of having sinned.Thank you. Then it is not always God’s willthat the afflicted one be healed as, for in-stance, Paul, who was afflicted with thatterrible ‘‘thorn in his flesh” that God refusedto remove. Thank you. Thus you have surren-dered entirely. Gone back on all you have said.Such is the benefit of debate.

(“Take him out. Put him off the platform.

You are a liar,” came from a number in thecongregation).

Some people think to make a rough houseis the thing to do to win. It may be the bestyou can do for Mrs. McPherson and since youthink she needs such ruffianism you arewelcome to help her that way.

(Loud yells and hoots and boos came fromMrs. McPherson’s followers at this point untilit was impossible for Dr. Bogard to continueand since his time lacked only about a minuteof being out he stopped speaking).

Mrs. McPherson’s Closing SpeechI guess you noticed this little whispering

on the platform. I turned to the chairman andsaid that I had brought up some witnesses totestify as to healing and they said I would hebreaking the rules of the debate, they said Iwould be introducing new evidence, finallythey have agreed in so far as Dr. Bogardintroduced the three whom he says are nothealed, I will call you as my jury, he said thelittle girl with the braces, the man with thecrutch and a Tackett boy, would it be fair forme to introduce three who were healed?(Applause.)

I will introduce one who has been fortwenty years a member of Bro. Bogard’schurch; until recently Mrs. E. W. Ottie of 3001Arkansas Avenue, she was organist and taughtin the Sunday School.

DR. BOGARD: She is not a member ofmy church and never has been.

MRS. McPHERSON: The sister saystwenty-five years ago she was organist andworker there.

MRS. OTTIE: I came here twenty-fiveyears ago. I joined the First Baptist church ofNorth Little Rock and Brother Bogard was thepastor at that time, then we moved over inLittle Rock and I attended the First Methodistchurch at 7th and Louisiana. I was a memberthere until I went to Memphis. I can prove


what I say by Dr. H. L. White, 210 1/2 MainStreet, North Little Rock. I had a cancer onmy nose and Dr. McDonald, 1106Cumberland Street, two years ago said I had acancer on my nose and he wanted to take itoff. I didn’t have the price. I had never metMrs. McPherson. I asked her to pray that it behealed and they began to draw and draw andthey both dropped off this morning, this is thethird day. There was a cancer here (indicating)one here (indicating) I have given you myaddress and my doctor’s name, my husbandwas at the Baptist Hospital as financial secre-tary for two or three years.

MRS. McDONALD: Mrs. McDonald,1004 East Washington. A member of the FirstChristian Church. My baby was paralyzedfrom six months of age. She is four and a halfand when I brought her to Sister she could notraise her arm up and when I would go to dressher it was with great pain but now she canraise her arm up (To the Child ) Raise yourarm up. (The child raises her arm) This littlethumb was drawn inward in the palm of herhand, and when Jesus touched them theyimmediately straightened. She can open herhand wide open—praise the Lord. Her lefthand, the fingers were a quarter of an inchshorter than those on the right. When she washealed they immediately became the samelength. Every person in this audience whoknows me stand up. (Several stand up)

MRS. McPHERSON: Rev. Roy Jordan,Third and Pulaski, pastor of the Capitol ViewMethodist Church has sent this testimony thathe was instantly healed by prayer of a badrupture.

MRS. McPHERSON: So, tonight, I restmy case, Dear Brother Bogard, may God blessyou and I may never see you again. Jesus doesanswer prayer for the sick and so tonightbefore I say good night and good bye to NorthLittle Rock and the folks here, those whobelieve Jesus does not answer prayer for the

sick will you vote for Brother Bogard bystanding in a body (Some stood. How manynot known.)

DR. BOGARD: That is not the subject ofdebate.

MRS. McPHERSON: How many does notbelieve, or do believe that divine healingceased with the apostolic age. Stand. Willthose who believe as Dr. Bogard that Miraclesand Divine healing ceased with apostolic ageplease stand (some stood).

Now, will those who believe that Jesus stillanswers prayer and heals the sick, signify bystanding. (Many stand). (Time out).

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The Healing Testimony Refuted

Mrs. E. W. Ottie, whom Mrs. McPhersonparaded before the congregation contrary tothe rule in debate which forbids NEW MAT-TER to be brought into a final negative,testified as seen above that she was cured ofcancer by Mrs. McPherson’s prayer after Dr.H. L. White had failed to cure her and that hercase was pronounced cancer by Dr.McDonald. Here are the facts:

Dr. H. L. White, whose address Mrs. Ottiegave in her testimony, is a reputable and longtime doctor of North Little Rock. He wasasked the following questions and the ques-tions and answers are given below exactly asasked and answered:

“Dr. White, did you treat Mrs. E. W. Ottiefor cancer and failed to cure her? What arefacts?”

Answer: “I treated Mrs. Ottie for somewarts on her face. They were not cancers. Iused the electric needle and told her that infrom two to four days the warts would dropoff. My treatment was successful because justfour days after I applied the electric needle she


went to Mrs. McPherson and was prayed forand the warts did drop off as she said, and justas I told her they would when I treated her. Ivas present in the tabernacle when she madethe statement and some one asked me why Idid not get up and contradict her. I did notwant to get into trouble by facing that moband decided to keep still but I told severalbefore leaving the tabernacle that I cured herand Mrs. McPherson got the credit for it.Incidentally I have not been paid for thetreatment and the thanks I got was to headvertised as a failure.”

That is Dr. White’s testimony and here isDr. McDonald’s testimony.

Dr. McDonald’s Certificate

Little Rock, ArkansasMay 26, 1934

Rev. Ben M. Bogard,Little Rock, ArkansasDear Dr. Bogard:During the debate of Mrs. Aimee S.

McPherson and Ben M. Bogard at the Taber-nacle in North Little Rock, it was assertedover the radio that I had examined a certainMrs. Ottie, and pronounced her case, Cancer,that I had made a definite diagnosis of facialCancer. I wish to correct this statement. I wishto say that I NEVER AT ANY TIME EXAM-INED MRS. OTTIE NOR DID I EVERPRONOUNCE HER CASE CANCER, NORTO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE ANDBELIEF DID THIS WOMAN EVER HAVECANCER. I know this woman when I see herbut she never was a patient of mine at anytime, neither did I ever make an examinationof her.

The statement attributed to me of herhaving a cancer on her face is false, andwithout any foundation whatever.

This statement I make out of fairness to allconcerned. This statement was not solicited byDr. Bogard nor any one else, but was madevoluntarily by myself to correct a wrongimpression.

Respectfully,E. B. McDonald, M. D.

Thus the claims are proved to be false.As to the little girl who was paralyzed.

SHE IS STILL PARALYZED. Her motherclaimed that she had been HELPED by Mrs.McPherson. But the child is still paralyzed. Ifthat is the sort of evidence Mrs. McPhersonhas, and it must have been her BEST for shepicked out just THREE from all the greatnumber who claimed to have been healed, andcertainly it is to be taken for granted shepicked the best evidence she had; then itfollows that ALL HER CLAIMS to doingsuch wonderful things fall flat. It is rank fraudand such frauds should be exposed and that isthe purpose of this debate and these statementsfrom reputable doctors.

The many people who voted with Mrs.McPherson were no doubt convinced that shewas right by this fraudulent testimony. Theywere not influenced by the Bible argumentsthat were made but would take the testimonyof false witnesses. Taking the word of meninstead of the word of God.

Rev. Roy Jordan positively denies sendingMrs. McPherson any word at all about beinghealed. So that is another fraudulent claim.

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THE MOST USED PASSAGE ONHOLY GHOST BAPTISM

1 Cor. 12:13, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into onebody.”

The above passage is considered by many as positive proof thatwe may have Holy Ghost (Spirit) baptism in this age. But a littleinvestigation will show it does not teach anything of the kind.

The Greek word that is translated “by” is the word “en” and itmeans exactly what our English word “in” means. So it shouldread “IN one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.” Already INTHE SPIRIT before we are baptized into the body. So we do notget into the body by being in the Spirit. But being IN THE SPIRITqualifies us for membership in the body, which is the church. In theSpirit FIRST then baptized into the one body.

Since Eph. 4:5 tells us there is ONLY ONE BAPTISM, itfollows that either the Holy Spirit baptism has ceased to be orwater baptism has ceased to be. If BOTH continues to exist, thenwe have TWO BAPTISMS. But water baptism was commanded tobe observed to the end of the world. It therefore follows that Spiritbaptism passed away with the age of miracles, ended with apos-tolic age.

It therefore follows that the passage means that being in thespirit, being already saved, we are baptized in water which admitsus to membership in the church. Water baptism is the only baptismsince the apostolic age. We are BORN of the Spirit; we are COM-FORTED by the Spirit; we are LED by the Spirit; but no one hasbeen BAPTIZED by the Spirit since the end of the apostolic Age.


AppendixThe Appendix is printed following the

debate because it is believed that it will helpthe reader to a better understanding of somethings mentioned in the debate. The debate ispublished word for word as spoken, and theAppendix is simply a further discussion ofsome features of the important subject. Thework of the Holy Spirit, and the correctunderstanding of the things in the Bible thatapply to the people living in this age of theworld should by all means have careful studyand consideration.

Ben M. Bogard

Is Everything In The BibleTo Be Observed By Us?

Is Every Thing In The Bible To Be Ob-served By Us?

If every thing in the Bible is for us toobserve we should be careful never to eat hogmeat or cat fish for fish without scales wasforbidden as food in the Bible. (Lev. 11:7–12).If every thing in the Bible is to observed by usthen we must offer up animal sacrifices foranimal sacrifices, such as lambs, bullockswere offered up by the command of God. (SeeLeviticus). If every thing in the Bible is to beobserved by us then we should circumcise ourmale children (Gen. 21:2–4). If every thing inthe Bible is to be observed by us then we mustburn incense at the altar (Lev. 16:12–13). Ifevery thing in the Bible is to be observed byus then we must keep the feasts such as thePassover, and Tabernacles, for these werecommanded by the Almighty (Exodus). Butyou are ready to say that all these thingsbelonged to another dispensation and werefulfilled and then done away. Exactly. That iscorrect! There are many things that were

observed in Bible times that we do not nowobserve because they served their purpose andwere done away by the authority of GodHimself. Suppose some one was contendingthat we should not eat cat fish and in doing sowould point to the law in the Bible on thatsubject? You would answer that this Scripturedoes not apply to us as it was a part of the lawGod gave to the Jews and was done awaywhen the law was done away. The law was“taken out of the way, nailed to the cross”(Col. 2:14–18). What! a part of the Bible doneaway? Yes, because it had fulfilled its purposeand then was set aside. Suppose some oneshould contend that we should observe thePassover Feast and insist that a lamb be slainand the blood sprinkled on the door posts ofour houses? What would you say? You nodoubt would know enough to say that this partof the Bible does not apply to us and that itapplied to the Jews only and since it was atype of Christ it was fulfilled in Christ andthen done away. That would be a correctanswer. Suppose someone should contend thatwe bring our lambs and bullocks to the altarand offer them there in sacrifice? Does not theBible command that these sacrifices be made?Most assuredly such a command is found inthe Bible but we all agree that, since thesacrifices were types of Christ and werefulfilled when Christ died on the cross, theydo not apply to us now.

Then we are agreed that much in the Bibleis not for us to observe now. Much of it hasbeen fulfilled and has been done away. Muchof it was of a temporary nature and when itserved its purpose it was done away. Whenone has learned this primary principle in thestudy of God’s Bible then we are prepared tobegin to understand the Bible. Suppose I


should declare that we should not now offerup sacrifices and some one should cry out“There, don’t you see he is trying to do awaywith a part of the Bible?” What would sensiblepeople conclude? Suppose I should say thatwe should not now observe the Passover Feastand some one would cry out: “That preacher istrying to do away with the Bible. He does notbelieve all the Bible.” What would a sensibleperson conclude? Suppose I should say thatwe should not burn incense on the altar nowand that we may eat cat fish now, and someone should, in great excitement, cry out, “Godis the same yesterday, today, and forever andhere is a preacher who is trying to do awaywith what is in the Bible?” What would asensible person say to such an answer as that?

There is a cry from those who claim to heable to work miracles and heal the sick, andspeak with tongues that those of us whooppose such heresies are trying to do awaywith a part of the Bible, use our scissors on theBible and cut out such parts as we do not wantand they cry out lustily that “God is the sameyesterday, today, and forever,” and thereforeall that we find in the Bible applies to ustoday. When Mrs. McPherson made such sillyarguments over and over again; when she saidshe would take the WHOLE BIBLE as herrule of faith and practice and pronounced allof us Modernists who did not take ALL OF ITand then challenged me “to come over to thetabernacle and debate it,” I accepted herchallenge and proposed to debate that veryquestion, and wrote her that I would affirmthat parts of the Bible did not apply to us nowand asked her to affirm that ALL THE BIBLE,FROM COVER TO COVER SHOULD BEOBSERVED BY US, she declined and thenwanted to switch the debate off to whetherGod would hear our prayers now as of old,which of course, was altogether anotherquestion. Finally we agreed to debate themiracle question, that divine healing and

miracles such as was found in the New Testa-ment, passed away with the apostolic age.That is the question discussed in this debate.The ONE QUESTION between us waswhether MIRACLES, TONGUES, HEAL-ING, and such like had been done away. If Isucceeded in showing that these MIRACU-LOUS GIFTS PASSED AWAY at the end ofthe apostolic age then I won the debate. If sheshowed that they were not done away she wonthe debate. That was the issue.

A prophecy concerning the birth and workof Jesus is found in the Prophet Micah. Thatprophet foretold the birth of Jesus even thevery town where he would be born. He proph-esied of his life and work and then of hiswonderful miracles, and in Micah 7:15 we aretold EXACTLY how long the miraculouswould continue. Here are the words: “Accord-ing to the days of thy coming out of the landof Egypt will I show unto him marvelousthings.” How long were the Israelites comingout of Egypt? Just about forty years. Thenhow long were the “marvelous” things con-nected with the life of Jesus to last? The samenumber of days that the Israelites were comingout of Egypt. From the time the first miracle,at Cana, where he turned the water into wine,to the destruction of Jerusalem, in A.D. 70, itwas forty years. Jesus was thirty years oldwhen he wrought his first miracle. Thus thefirst miracle was in A.D. 30 and the “marvel-ous” things thus begun were to last fortyyears, that is until A.D. 70. No one can show amiracle wrought after the year A.D. 70. Thetime was up and miracles ceased. Since thattime the New Testament has been sufficientfor all our needs, and hence miracles passedaway because no longer needed.

Why then did Paul tell the Corinthians to“covet earnestly the best gifts” if they weredone away? They were not done away at thetime Paul told the Corinthians that. Might aswell ask why God commanded circumcision


and why God commanded that the Passover beobserved and why God commanded thatanimals be offered in sacrifice if they weredone away? The answer is that they were notdone away at the time God commanded theybe observed. So these “MIRACULOUSGIFTS” were not done away at the time Paultold the Corinthians to “covet earnestly thebest gifts.” But in the very next chapter (1 Cor.13) we are told that when the “perfect thing”came these very gifts would be done away.The perfect thing came when the Bible wasfully written. Now we have the New Testa-ment and it is all we need. The miracles byJesus and the apostles during the FORTYYEARS that “marvelous” things were tocontinue, are all recorded in the New Testa-ment and they “ follow” all believers becausewe have them in the Bible. The passage thatsays “these signs shall follow them thatbelieve,” could not mean that ALL BELIEV-ERS would work miracles. The reason is thatALL BELIEVERS did not work miracles evenin the apostolic age. Even those who did workmiracles in the apostolic age did not do ALLTHE MIRACLES because some had one giftand some another and none of them had ALLTHE GIFTS. But the passage that says “thesesigns shall follow them that believe,” undoubt-edly means that ALL THE SIGNS shouldfollow ALL believers. That forces us to theconclusion that all the signs, being recorded inthe New Testament, follow all believers at alltimes. It does not say that all believers shouldforever be able to do all these miracles.

All should remember that the New Testa-ment is our all-sufficient rule of faith andpractice. The miraculous was needed up untilGod had fully revealed his will to us in theBible then we no longer needed the OBJECTLESSONS which miracles furnished.

The following lecture was delivered overthe Radio of the Church of the Open Door,Los Angeles, Calif., which I mentioned in a

letter to Mrs. McPherson.

Why Can Not We Perform Miracles NowAs Was Done In The Apostolic Times?

The Work of the Holy Spirit, Miracles,The Baptism of the Spirit, Divine Healing,Speaking With Tongues and kindred subjectsare badly misunderstood by the majority of thepeople. This lecture, which may be heard bymany thousands over the air and then read bymany other thousands in the Baptist andCommoner, is delivered for the purpose ofhelping to a better understanding of the Scrip-tural Questions.

Many contend that since God neverchanges it follows that miracles must ofnecessity continue because we read ofmiracles being performed in the Bible. If thatargument amounts to anything it would followthat circumcision, burning of incense, slaugh-tering animals in sacrifice, and the prohibitionof eating hog meat and cat fish and rabbits,and the keeping of the seventh day Sabbathand all the rest would necessarily continue atthis time for God not only endorsed butcommanded these things in Bible times. Butall Bible scholars agree that circumcision, andanimal sacrifices and burning of incense andsuch like were used for the purpose of teach-ing valuable spiritual lessons and that theypassed away when they were no longerneeded. The vast majority also believe that theold seventh day Sabbath passed away whenthe law was nailed to the cross (Col. 2:12–17)and that circumcision passed away when theNew Testament became the rule of faith andpractice and that now we may eat hog meatand rabbit and cat fish which God forbade inthe Old Testament Dispensations. CertainlyGod has not changed but He has made thesechanges in his laws. Then it would not followthat God had changed if HE CHOSE TOALLOW MIRACLES FOR THE PURPOSE


OF ESTABLISHING HIS DOCTRINE ANDTO CONFIRM THE WORD SPOKEN BYHIMSELF WHILE ON EARTH AND SPO-KEN BY THE APOSTLES AFTER HEASCENDED TO HEAVEN. That miracleswere for the purpose of CONFIRMING theword spoken by Christ and the Apostles iscertain. Read Heb. 2:3–4, “How shall weescape if we neglect so great salvation; whichat the first began to be spoken by our Lord,and was confirmed by them that heard him.God bearing them witness, both with signsand wonders, and with divers miracles, andgifts of the Holy Ghost, according to hiswill?” After the Word, the New Testament,was CONFIRMED, ESTABLISHED, miracleswere no longer needed and having served theirpurpose they passed away.

What they taught and did, and how thatsinners heard and believed and became Chris-tians, and how Christians should live, iswritten in the New Testament for our guid-ance, because we are to observe the sameteaching. Therefore when we hear the teachingof the New Testament, we hear the Spiritspeaking to us; and when we OBEY what itteaches, we walk after the Spirit and are thechildren of God, saved and sanctified. “For asmany as are led by the Spirit of God, they arethe sons of God” (Rom 8:14).

Paul says, “Now we have received, not thespirit of the world, but the Spirit which is ofGod; THAT WE MIGHT KNOW the thingsthat are freely given to us of God, whichthings we also speak not in the words whichman’s wisdom teacheth, but which the HOLYSPIRIT TEACHETH” (1 Cor. 2:12,13). Bythose WORDS given to and through theapostles, we are taught and guided today. (See1 Peter 1:12).

God gave the apostles power to lay theirhands upon certain ones and give them gifts ofthe Spirit. (Acts 19:6 and 8:18, and 2 Tim.1:16). “For to one is given by the Spirit the

word of wisdom; to another the word ofknowledge by the same Spirit; to another faithby the same spirit; to another the gifts ofhealing by the same Spirit; to another theworking of miracles; to another prophecy; toanother discerning of spirits; to another theinterpretation of tongues; to another diverskinds of tongues” (1 Cor. 12:8–10). These“gifts” were not the baptism in the Spirit.

Paul says that these gifts are to CEASE“when that which is perfect is come.” He says,“But whether there be prophecies THEYSHALL FAIL; whether there be tongues theyshall cease; whether there be knowledge ITSHALL VANISH AWAY. For we know in part,and we prophesy in part; but when that whichis perfect is come (which is ‘the perfect law ofliberty,’ James 1:25, the completed NewTestament), then that which is in part SHALLBE DONE AWAY” (1 Cor. 13:8–10).

Paul did not teach that anything necessaryfor our salvation or Christian life would be“done away.” Hence these gifts are not neces-sary for salvation or Christian living, or theywould not have ceased.

And, moreover, the Scriptures do not evenINFER that those who received these super-natural gifts, were made better or holierChristians, but were only better able to teachothers, who, when they obeyed, were madebetter and holier.

The Corinthians, like many people today,did not understand the purpose of these Spiri-tual gifts; and Paul makes a very plain expla-nation in the 12th, 13th and 14th chapterswhich all should diligently study.

These powers were given to the apostlesand part of them were given to a few others onwhom the apostles laid their hands. See Acts2:43; 5 :12; Heb. 2:4; Acts 28:3–5; 19:6, 11,12; Acts 8:18.

These signs were to confirm the word andNOT to cure our physical sickness, or Paulwould have cured Epaphroditus (See Phil.


2:25–30), and Trophimus (See 2 Tim. 4:20).Did not Paul care if they were sick and suffer-ing? He did not heal them.

“Gifts of the Spirit” were the powers givenby the Spirit to do the things Paul mentions in1 Cor. 12:8–10, while “the GIFT of theSPIRIT” is the Spirit himself given to all whobelieve.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit, and thegifts of the Spirit, as Jesus has explained, wereto TEACH and GUIDE the recipients thereof,which they did. What the Spirit guided themto say and to write, we have now as the NewTestament, which is a “perfect law of liberty”in Christ Jesus. See James 1:25; 2 Tim. 3:16,17; 1 Peter 4:11.

And Paul says, “But when that which isperfect is come, then that which is in part shallbe done away” (1 Cor 13:10).

To not believe they were “DONE AWAY,”would be to disbelieve God, because Paul wastaught this by the Spirit of God.

The Bible records but three instances ofpersons being baptized in the Holy Spirit; Theapostles (Acts 2nd), Paul (Acts 9th), and thehousehold of Cornelius (Acts 10th) .

Although the apostles were baptized inHoly Spirit, they baptized their converts inwater. See Acts 2:41; 10:48; 16:15, 33; Acts18:8; 19:5; 8:36–39; 22:16. And this is whatJesus commanded them to do. See Matt.28:19; and that is what the church is nowcommanded to do.

For awhile there were two baptisms—onein the Spirit, and one in the water. But whenPaul wrote Eph. 4:5, about A.D. 70 he saidthere is “one baptism,” showing us that Spiritbaptism had been “done away” before thattime, leaving only water baptism when Paulwrote Ephesians.

The Holy Spirit baptism was always seenand heard by those present. Acts 2:2, 3. Seealso Mark 1:10, 11; John 1:33. If such heav-enly proofs could be seen and heard today few

would doubt Holy Spirit baptism now. There-fore “Let no man deceive you by any means,”for no living person is now baptized in theHoly Spirit, but many have been deceivedbecause they have believed false teachersinstead of the Bible.

Neither Jesus nor His apostles ever taughtthat sinners or Christians need a baptism ofthe Holy Spirit nor any Spiritual gifts of 1 Cor.12:8–10 to be saved. Paul says, “Follow aftercharity (love), and desire Spiritual gifts, butrather that ye may prophesy” or teach. Pauldid not consider Spiritual gifts of great impor-tance. He said “Yet in the church I had ratherspeak FIVE words with my understanding thatby my voice I might teach others also thanTEN THOUSAND words in an unknowntongue” (1 Cor. 14:1, 19).

We all need the Holy Spirit, for “if anyman have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none ofhis” (Rom. 8:9). And God gives him to thoseonly who believe. See Acts 5:32.

The new birth, being born of the Spirit, isnot restricted to the New Testament. Jesus saidto Nicodemus: “Art thou a master (teacher) inIsrael and knowest not these things?” (John3:1–16). Why should Jesus make such astatement if Nicodemus could not havelearned of the birth of the Spirit in the OldTestament? The regenerating work of the HolySpirit has gone on all through the history ofthe world. The abiding presence and beingfilled with the Holy Spirit were experiencedby men and women before Christ came intothe world. Luke 1:67, “Zacharias was filledwith the Holy Ghost.” Simeon was led by theSpirit and received revelations from the Spiritbefore Christ was born (Luke 2:25–26). Johnthe Baptist was filled with the Holy Spiritfrom birth (Luke 1:15). The Holy Spirit cameupon Mary, the mother of Jesus, when thebirth of Jesus was announced to her (Luke1:35). Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit(Luke 1:41). The Holy Spirit had worked with


and in men all through the history of theworld. But HIS ADMINISTRATION OVERTHE KINGDOM and his miraculous BAP-TISM did not exist until the Pentecost afterthe resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.The confusion that exists in the minds of manyon this subject is deplorable. So many thinkthe BAPTISM of the Spirit is the same thingas the BIRTH of the Spirit and the leadershipof the Spirit. The birth of the Spirit, the ind-welling of the Spirit, and the leadership of theSpirit have all been enjoyed by the Lord’speople from the time of creation until now.But the ADMINISTRATION of the Spirit andthe Baptism of the Spirit began at Pentecost.

The baptism of the Spirit and the miracu-lous gifts of the Spirit were done away whenthe “Perfect thing” came (1 Cor. 13:8–10) andas expressed in different words by James,“The Perfect law of liberty” came (James1:25) when the church came into “The knowl-edge of the Son of God” (Eph. 4:11–14) whichmeans the revelation of Jesus Christ wascomplete by the finishing of the perfect rule offaith and practice which we know as the NewTestament. Since this perfect thing, this“perfect law of liberty” came, this knowledgeof the Son of God” came, since that blessedday no one has had the baptism of the HolySpirit and no one has been able to work amiracle. Why? Because the “gifts” whichenabled men to do that sort of thing were“done away,” “ceased,” and now we have theindwelling of the Spirit, the comfort of theSpirit, and sinners are born of the Spirit butnobody is baptized in the Spirit and nobodyhas the MIRACULOUS gifts of the Spirit.

Are any miracles worked now? Cananybody heal the sick, or speak in unknowntongues now? You may be surprised when Itell you that possibly some are able to workmiracles even now. But such miracles are notof God. They are of the devil. When Mosesworked miracles in Egypt the “Magicians did

so with their enchantments.” (Ex. 7:11; 22:8–7). This was done over and over again. Thedevil has counterfeited God’s work in all ages.The devil is still counterfeiting God’s work byworking miracles. THE DEVIL ENABLESHIS SUBJECTS TO WORK MIRACLES. SeeRev. 13:13–14: “He doeth great wonders, sothat he maketh fire to come down from heavenon the earth in the sight of men. And hedeceiveth them that dwell on the earth bymeans of those miracles which he had powerto do,” etc. Rev. 16:14 “The spirit of devil’sworking miracles.”

Thus we plainly see that the devil is stillworking miracles and if I were to see amiracle and know it to be a miracle; if I wereto see a man heal the sick or do any otherwonderful thing I would not be convinced thathe was of God because of that. Instead of themiracle causing me to believe that the miracleworker was of God I would be convinced ofthe exact opposite for the very good reasonthat the miraculous gifts have been withdrawnfrom the church and all miracles are now ofthe devil.

Will apparently good men, men whopraise God and shout, and preach and pray andseemingly good be under the power of thedevil? Most assuredly. Read 2 Cor. 11:13–15.“For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,transforming themselves into the apostles ofChrist. And no marvel; for Satan himself istransformed into an angel of light. Therefore itis no great thing if his ministers also be trans-formed as ministers of righteousness.”

So we see that the devil has ministers, thedevil has miracle workers, and since we knowby the Scriptures that God’s ministers do notnow have the gift of healing, and the gift oftongues and such like because they were doneaway, done away when the “PERFECTTHING,” the “PERFECT LAW OF LIB-ERTY,” came, when the church came “INTOTHE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF


GOD”; since we know that miracle working isa thing of the past in the church of JesusChrist, then we can as certainly know that anymiracle working we now see is of the devil, nomatter how wonderful and no matter howreligious they may seem to be. The moreprayer, and shouting, and praising God there isattached to it the more danger there is ofdeceiving the unsuspecting.

These plain words are necessary nowbecause so many are claiming these miracu-lous gifts. The Holy Rollers, the ChristianScientists, the Mormons, the McPhersonitesand others are making loud claims. We hadbetter prepare to meet them for they are onlydifferent varieties of the same vicious species.

There is a hue and cry going up all overthe land for “more SPIRITUALITY.” That iswell and good provided it is sure enoughSPIRITUALITY that is wanted. But what isMEANT in many cases is EMOTION, DEM-ONSTRATION, the SO-CALLED BAPTISMOF THE SPIRIT, and a goody, goody, sort offeeling. The devil is back of all such demands.Spirituality of a Bible sort is to be in HAR-MONY WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. To be inharmony with the Spirit is to respect hiswritten word, to obey his written command-ments, to be submissive to his written will. Tobe governed by DREAMS, EMOTIONS,FEELINGS, and then not be willing to hearwhat the Holy Spirit says in his word ispositive proof that the individuals so governedare not Spiritual. A Spiritual man LOVESTHE BIBLE and does not get angry when thepreacher preaches the words of the Spirit onbaptism, the Lord’s Supper, church govern-ment, LAYING BY IN STORE OF THEMONEY GOD HAS PLACED IN HISHANDS, and thus be a liberal contributor tohis cause. To get angry at a sermon preachedon contributing money and then cry for SPIRI-TUAL preaching is a certain indication thatthe one so exercising is anything but Spiritual.

The man or woman who can not sit and listenwith pleasure at a doctrinal sermon, a sermonthat plainly SHOWS our duty and yet weepover death bed stories and rejoice over emo-tional illustrations shows a lack of Spirituality.

If we are led by the Spirit we shall do whatthe Spirit teaches us to do. If we are filled withthe Spirit we shall rejoice in what the Bibleteaches. If we think of Jesus and want tohonor and obey Jesus we are Spiritual. TheHoly spirit testifies NOT OF HIMSELF but ofJesus and if he is our GUEST he will fill uswith LOVE OF JESUS and we shall not thinkof the Spirit himself, and we shall feel unwor-thy of the Lord’s service instead of boasting ofour SPIRITUALITY. Spirituality produceshumility and never the Pharisaical feeling thatwe are so very good.

Let us hear what Jesus said this baptism inthe Holy Spirit was to do. “But the Comforter,which is the Holy Spirit whom the Father willsend in my name, He shall TEACH YOU ALLTHINGS, and bring all things to your RE-MEMBRANCE, whatsoever I have said untoyou” (John 14:26).

“He shall TESTIFY of me” (John 15:26).“And when he (the Spirit) is come, he willREPROVE the world of sin, and of righteous-ness, and of judgment … I have yet manythings to say unto you but ye can not bearthem now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit ofTruth is come, he will GUIDE YOU into ALLTRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; butwhatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak;and he will SHOW you things to come. Heshall glorify me for he shall receive of mineand SHALL SHOW IT UNTO YOU” (John16:8–14).

Note the fact that the Holy Spirit was NOTTO SPEAK OF HIMSELF but was to testifyof Christ. Those who have the Holy Spirit willshow that fact by thinking of Jesus andSPEAKING of Jesus. If a man is constantlytalking about the wonderful things the Spirit


has done for him and is always boasting ofbeing filled with the Spirit and of beingbaptized by the Spirit it is positive proof thathe does not have the Holy Spirit because theSpirit does not talk of himself but he testifiesof Christ.

Thus Jesus leaves no uncertainty for us toguess at, about the baptism in the Holy Spirit,but tells us in plain words the exact purpose ofthis baptism. It was “to TEACH” His apostles,“to SHOW” them, “to GUIDE” them, to bringto their “REMEMBRANCE, whatsoever Ihave said unto you,” and “to TESTIFY” to theworld, of Jesus through them.

At that time there was no New Testamentto tell the people how to be saved, and how tolive, hence Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guidehis apostles into what to teach men andwomen. And the Spirit guided them so per-fectly that they spake only “AS THE SPIRITGAVE THEM UTTERANCE” (Acts 2:4).

Thus guided and controlled by the Spirit,they could teach and testify exactly what Jesuswanted taught to the people, and could provetheir words were given them from heaven, byconfirming them “with signs and wonders anddivers miracles.” (Heb. 2:4).

What they taught and did, and how sinnersheard and believed and how Christians shouldlive, is written in the New Testament for ourguidance, because we are to observe the sameteaching. Therefore, when we hear the teach-ing of the New Testament, we hear the Spiritspeaking to us and when we OBEY what itteaches, we walk after the Spirit and are led bythe Spirit and are the children of God, savedand sanctified. “For as many as are led by theSpirit of God, they are the sons of God” (Rom.8:14).

Paul says, “Now we have received not thespirit of the world, but the Spirit which is ofGod THAT WE MIGHT KNOW the thingsthat are freely given to us of God, whichthings we also speak not in the words which

man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the HOLYSPIRIT TEACHETH” (l Cor. 2:12, 13). Bythose WORDS given to and through theapostles, we are taught and guided today. (Seel Peter 1:12).

This idea does not deny the LEADER-SHIP of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit leadsin two ways. He instructs in WRITING, thewritings of the New Testament, as to everydoctrine and practice, he tells us plainly whatto do under all circumstances in HIS WRIT-TEN WORD. The other way the Spirit leads isby HIS PROVIDENCE. He, by his provi-dence, hedges up our way at times and opensup new ways by his providence but ALL HISINSTRUCTIONS are in the New Testament.When a man takes a dream or an IMPRES-SION for the leadership of the Spirit hebecomes an easy victim for the frauds andimpostors who come along with plenty of suchdreams and impressions. But it we give allthese impostors to understand that we areUNDER WRITTEN INSTRUCTIONS fromthe Holy Spirit as to our duty and that we canTRUST THE HOLY SPIRIT TO OPEN UPWAYS FOR SERVICE, and to PROVIDEN-TIALLY PREVENT US FROM ENTERINGWHERE WE SHOULD NOT, then we aresafely on Bible ground and at the same timeimmune to attack from the hundred and onereligious cults who prey upon the ignorant andestablish their heretical cults. To hold, as somedo that we still have the “GIFTS” of the Spirit,to heal the sick, LOGICALLY TURNS USOVER TO THE MORMONS, HOLY ROLL-ERS.

This position does not discourage prayerfor the sick. We should take every thing toGod in prayer. We should pray for daily bread(Matt. 6:11) but we should do what we can toget bread, use the means God has ordained toget bread and YET HE GIVES US OURBREAD. We should pray for the sick. Butwhen one has malaria, for instance, when we


pray for the Lord to heal the malaria weshould give the patient quinine because themalaria germ is killed by quinine. We shouldpray the Lord to protect us from small pox andwhen we pray go to a doctor and be vacci-nated, thus using the means God has put in ourreach to prevent small pox. How foolish it

would be to pray for bread and then expect theLord to rain it down from heaven. Pray for thesalvation of souls and then, as we pray, weshould preach to these same souls and use themeans God ordained for their salvation. But todepend on miracles is to be depending onwhat has been done away.

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