@TheRevert Rebuttal

7/29/2019 @TheRevert Rebuttal

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@petertownsend7to@therevert

Thanks for taking the timetorespond.Youareoneof thevery fewMuslimswhohaveat

leastattemptedtorespondtothesechargeswithmorethaninsultsandclaimsthatIama

haterandIslamophobesoIcertainlywanttogiveyoucreditforthat.Allowmetointeract

withyourreplies. Ihaveto,however,beforeIgoontakeissuewithyourstatementatthe

endthat Itargetvulnerableconvertswhomightbeunsureoftheirfaith.Theoriginalpost

happened inthecontextofadiscussionwithsomeonewho Iwouldhavenohesitationto

describe as a scholar of Islam. He eventually found my questions too uncomfortable and

difficultanddecidedtowalkaway.

redcomments(Myresponsestoyou areallinthisshadeofdarkblue)

Myrepliesarebeloweachofyourclaims,inred.

Justa little reminderofyourbooksown test for itself:Will theynot thenponderon the

Quran? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein muchcontradiction.[4:82]

1)TheQuran isriddledwithcontradictions.Youhavetriedto interactwithsomeofthem

butinalmosteverycaseitcamedowntospecialpleadinganddenyingtheplainmeaningof

thetext.IftherewereonlyoneortwosuchcasesintheQuranImighthavebeenwillingto

grant the massaging of individual texts in order to harmonise it with other texts that

contradicteditelsewhereintheQuran.Howeverthefactthatyouhavetodothisinliterally

hundreds of cases means that the evidence for it being a book without contradiction is

exceedinglyflimsy.IrepeatwhatIsaidsooften.Intextualanalysisyoucannotstartwitha

predetermined meaning and then attempt to force an individual text to adhere to the

meaning.Youhavetogowheretheevidenceleads.Andinsomanycasestheevidenceleads

to exactly the opposite place where you wanted it to go. Coming up with appeals to

authority, special pleading, spurious appeals the context and claims that individual texts

have been mistranslated reallyjust shows that the numberone guiding principle in your

interpretations isnotwhatthetextsthemselvessaybutaverydeepdesiretomakethem

saysomethingelseinordertofitinwiththenotionthattheQurancannothaveerrors.Yet

contradictionsliketheseremain:


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*Allahcreatedmanfrom:Blood(96:12),Water(25:54),Clay(15:26),Dust(30:20),Nothing

(3:47)

NowhereisitclaimedthatAllahisonlycapableof"onetype"ofcreation,sothisishardlya

contradiction.Ifitis,itisacontradictionof...whatexactly?EXAMPLE:ItisbelievedbyJews,

ChristiansandMuslimsthatAdamwasfashionedoutofclay(Creationtype#1)andEvewas

created from one of Adam's ribs (Creation type #2). Jesus was created without a father

(Creationtype#3).Icangoon.Thebeliefhere isthatAllah IScapableofallthosethings

andwithoutlimits.

Ithinkwecansafelysaythatyoumissedthepointinyourabovereferences.Areyoutaking

"man"and"mankind"inEnglishtomeanthesamethingwhilstusingtheArabicreferenceto

said words? Therein is your mistake! Arabic is far, far more eloquent than English. The

Englishword"LOVE"hassomanyClassicalArabicequivalents.So, Isuggestthatyouhave

perhaps interpreted the above references in their incorrect contexts to justify your

arguments.

Firstly your claim that Arabic is more complex and eloquent than English is patently

ridiculous. The Quran contains about 18 000 distinct words, English has a documented

vocabulary of about 250 000 words. There is, therefore, nothing that you can express in

classicalArabicthatyoucannotalsoexpressinEnglish.ItisalsointerestingthatIonlyever

hearthisobjectionraisedwhenIslamortheQuraniscriticised,neverwhenitispreached.

The Quran seems to be the pinnacle of clarity in English when preached but the most

impenetrable document around when Islam is questioned. However to humour you and

demonstratethataretreatintoArabicissimplyawayofgettingcriticsoffthescentIwill

workprimarilyfromtheArabictextwherenecessary.

Secondlyyour reference to theChristianand Jewishbeliefs isnotapplicablesinceweare

discussing the Quran and not the Tanakh (Old Testament)or Christian New Testament.

ProvingsomethingabouttheTanakh(a)doesnotautomaticallyprovetheQuran(b)tobe

correct.Howeversinceyouraisedit:IntheTanakhcreationisclearlypresentedasastage

by stage process in the form of a narrative. This is, however, not how these verses are

presented in the Quran. They are presented in the form of emphatic standalonestatements.HowwouldaBedouinlisteningtoMohammadhaveinterpretedtheseversesif


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he heard them recited at the different times when they were revealed? As speaking of

stages? How can this be if there are no clear references to a stagebystage process of

creationandtheverseswererevealedyearsapart?Theonlythingthatleadsyoutospeak

ofstages isyourneedtoprovethattheQuranhasnocontradictions.Nothing inthetext,

context or the message to the original hearers suggests such an interpretation. You are

thereforesimplyperformingeisegesis(carryingyourown interpretation intothetext).This

isnotdriveninanywaybytheindividualpassageitself.Theonlyreasonyouhavetodothis

isbecauseyouhavetoharmoniseitwithotherpassages!Nowrepeatthisprocesshundreds

of times (denying the plain meaning of passages in order to achieve harmonisation with

others)andyouseewhytheclaimofnocontradictionsissoutterlyabsurd.

Nowletslookatyouractualclaims.WhodidAllahcreateusingthedifferentmaterials?

Whoistheyouthathecreatedin30:20?Wellyoucanworkthatoutfromthecontextbut

incaseyouwantclarityitis:

Youcanseefromthisthat,inspiteofyourclaimaboutthedeepcomplexitiesofArabic,two

relativelysimpleroot formsareusedand theycanbeused toconvey thesamemeaning:

Man or humanity. These references are widely separated in time, place (Mecca and


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Medina)andpositionintheQuran.Noreferenceatallismadetoastageoraprocessand

thematerialsusedinthecreationofthisparticularspeciesdirectlycontradicteachother.

All of the above is complicated even further by the fact that the Quran also states that

Allahsmethodofcreationissimplytosaybeanditis(3:47).

Theylosttheirownsouls,whowillnotbelieve(6:12)*(Allah)causestostraywhomHewills

(16:93)

Contradictswithwhat?

Sorry this was a formatting error by Twitlonger. The correct contradiction is above. 6:12

makesitclearthatthosewhogotohellhaveonlythemselvestoblame.

Yet16:93makesitclearthatAllahcausessomepeopletostray:

The matter is further complicated by 10:100 that states clearly that no soul can believe

unless Allah gives permission. This is confirmed by 6:25 where he owns up to actively

preventingpeoplefrombelieving.


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Yet he still sends people tohell and tells them that they have lost themselves.Adeep,irreconcilableandtroublingcontradiction.

*Will intercessionbepossibleat theDayof Judgment?No (2:122123,254)Yes (20:109)

2:122123doesnotsayno.Itsaysnointercessionwillbenefitit.Comparing2:254with

20:109hardlycallstomindacontradictionwhenreadincontext.

Herearethefullverses:


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This verse is categorical that no intercession will be accepted. Note the strong double

negative:notacceptedandany.Furthermorewhywouldintercessionbeofferedifthere

isnottheexpectationthat itwillbenefitthepersonbeing intercededfor?That isthevery

purposeofintercession.Tosaythatitwillnotbenefitisthereforeaclearstatementthatit

willnotbeaccepted.

When it comes to the verse that contradicts this, the word benefit is again used: Thus

nullifyingyourentireargument.Hereitis:

Soitisveryclearthatfarfromstatingthatpeoplewillnotbenefitfromtheintercessionit

leavesthepossibilityopen.Aclearanirreconcilablecontradiction.

*DoesAllahcommandtodoevil?No(7:28)Yes(17:16)

Youinterpretationiscorrecton7:28butlackingon17:16.Hereiswhat17:16says:

Sahih InternationalAndwhen We intend to destroy acity, We command its affluent but

theydefiantlydisobey therein; so the wordcomes intoeffectupon it, andWe destroy it

with[complete]destruction.

I cannot see in that verse any reference to "Allah commanding evil", regardless of the

Englishtranslation.

The idea in17:16 is that it can be translated to state that it is Allahwhocommands the

disobedienceof the affluent in thecity so that theycan display their foul deeds and the

wordcanbe proved trueagainst them.See forexample:YUSUFALI:WhenWedecide to

destroyapopulation,We(first)sendadefiniteordertothoseamongthemwhoaregiven

thegoodthingsofthislifeandyettransgress;sothatthewordisprovedtrueagainstthem:

then(it is)Wedestroythemutterly.Allahwould inthissensebethedirectcommanderof

evil.

Besides,thisisnottheonlyversewhereAllahispaintedasthesourceofevil.InQuran4:78

theprophet

isin

one

of

his

many

sticky

situations

because

the

people

think

that

the

evil

that

hasbefallenthemisduetohis(Muhammads)presenceamongthem.Thankfullyaswithhis


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just intimerevelationsAllahsteps intosavetheday.Hetellsthepeoplenotonlytosay

thatgood thingscome fromAllahbut theymustalsobe taught thatevil is fromhimAll

thingsarefromAllah. Againaclearcontradictionwiththeversesaboveaswellaswiththe

verynextverse!(4:79)wherepeoplearetaughttosaythatevilcomesfromthemselves!If

younowwant toexclude this fromAllahsactions itcontradicts thestatementAllthings

arefromAllah.Whateverwayyouturnyouarestuck.

*Canslanderofchastewomenbeforgiven?Yes(24:45)No(24:23)

YusufAli(24:4)Andthosewholaunchachargeagainstchastewomen,andproducenotfour

witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their

evidenceeverafter:forsuchmenarewickedtransgressors;

(24:5)Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is OftForgiving,

MostMerciful.

YusufAli (24:23)Thosewhoslanderchastewomen, indiscreetbutbelieving,arecursed in

thislifeandintheHereafter:forthemisagrievousPenalty,

Again,IcannotfindanyreferencetoNOTforgivingtheslandererofchastewomen.Clearly,

yourexchangetheword"cursed"forthewords"donotforgive"inanattempttogivefalse

weighttoyourclaim.


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Iamafraidthatitisyouwhoaretwistinglanguagetosuityourposition.Itisclearthatitis

notonlypeoplewhoforgiveinthefirstinstancebutAllahaswell(Allahisoftforgiving,most

merciful). Ifwe then turn to the secondverse theword cursequiteobviouslyapplies to

Allah(it ishewhowillmeteoutthegrievouspenalty)nothumanbeings.Sothefirstverse

saysthathewill insomecases(whererepentanceoccurs)forgivetheslandererswhilethe

secondcategoricallydeclaresallsuchpersonseternallydamned.

*Whatwillunbelieverseatinhell?NofoodexceptDhari(apoisonousplant)(88:6)Nofood

exceptfromthedischargeofwounds(69:36)

If you read those two references in context, I disagree with your claim that it is a

contradiction.Ref.theaboveonCreationandalsorefertotheQuranicreferencesthatthere

are7heavensfordifferentrankingsouls.Puttingthat intoperspective,canyoukindlysite

thesourceoftheclaimthattherewillonlybeonetypeofpunishmentinHell?Andindeed,

thatthereisonlyonetypeofHell?Considerthefollowingpunishmentfordisbelievers.

SahihInternational(88:23)However,hewhoturnsawayanddisbelieves (88:24)ThenAllah

willpunishhimwiththegreatestpunishment.

Thepunishmentmetedoutissoseverethatitisnotevendescribed.Theirsisaveryspecial

type of punishment, indicating a third type of punishment. Hardly a contradiction. Since

whendidvarietybecomecontradiction?

OkayLetlookatthetextsindetailandincontext:

69:36DescribestheDayofJudgementandthesendingofsomepeopletohell.Whowillgo?Thosewhohavebeengiventheirrecordsintheirlefthands(69:25)Thisrefers

toallthosewhowillgotohellonthedayofjudgementsincethosewhowillgotoparadisewillbegiventheirrecordsintheirrighthands(69:19)

Wherewilltheygo?Intothehellfire(ljama)

Whatwilltheyeat?No foodexcept (wal tamun ill)fromthethedischargeofwounds(ghis'lnin).


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88:1Whowillgo?Literallysomefaces(wujuhun)i.e.ametaphorforthosewhowillbebrought

low. These people would be included in those who received their records with their left

hands(i.e.partofthegeneralpopulationofhell)

Wherewilltheygo?Theywillburninafire(naran).

Whatwilltheyeat?Nofoodexcept(laysalahumtamunill)Dari(abitterthornyplant)

You are welcome to argue that the second group constitute a special class in a special

sectionofhell(althoughthetextdoesnotindicatethis)buttheyarestillpartofthegeneralpopulation(thosewhoreceivedtheirrecordwiththeirlefthands)whoaresupposedtoeat

nothingexceptpus.Aclearanirreconcilablecontradiction.Letmejustcomplicatemattersabit further foryou.A thirdmenu item isonoffer in the

QurantheleavesofthetreeofZaqqum(37:63).Itgrowsatthebottomofhellfire(exactly

thesamegeneralwordthat isused in69:31)theplacewhereallthosewhowhoreceived

the records with their left hands (i.e. every single person who will be condemned on

judgmentday)aresupposedtogoandwheretheyaresupposedtoeatnothingbutpus.Yethere theyareoffered something else!Youare soquick topointme tocontext,buthere

context (i.e. the way in whichjudgementwill occur: lefthand/right hand)actually shows

howverywrongyouareintryingtoassertthatthisreferstodifferentsectionsofhell.

*Ifunbelieversturnrejectthemessageleavethembe,yourdutyistoconveythemessage(3:20).If

unbelieversrejectthemessagefightthemuntilallreligionisforAllah(8:3839)

You are quoting out of context...again! I will not even acknowledge your claim with a

response except that you should reread 8:3839 it clearly does not say what you have

understoodandmisinterpreted inANYEnglishtranslation!

Soyouwanttolookatthecontextoftheseverses.Letsdothat:


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Here it isclearthatMuslimsaretopresentthemessageof Islamand ifpeople turnaway

theyaretosimplysaythattheyhavedonetheirduty(thedutyofnotification).Theyshould

alsowarnthosewhoactoutsidethe law (killingmessengersandadministratorsofjustice)

thatAllahwillpunishthem.ItisAllahwhowillacttopunishthedisbeliever(see3:19)


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LetsnowturntoSura8:

It isclearthatMuhammadhadtroublewiththedisbelieversandthattheyshouldnowbe

warned to cease hostilities or face the consequences. These consequences will include

military action against them until there is no more fitna (rebellion/strife). They should,

however, also be forced to abandon their previous beliefs. One of the objectives of the

fighting shouldbe that all religion is for Allah (wayakna ldnukulluhu lillahi).Theyare

therefore to fight to gain a religious objective (i.e. to force people to accept Allahs

religion). This very clearly contradicts the verses above that states that Muslims merelyhaveadutyofnotification.


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*Creationwasanactofbringingtogether(41:11),Creationwasanactofsplittingapart

(21:30)

Theseneedtobereadincontextastheyareclearlynotdescribingthesameevent.

Okayletslookatthetwoversesincontext:


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Soherewehave twodivergentaccountsofcreation. Iquotedbothof them in full.Some

problemsimmediatelypresentthemselves;

Boththesepassagesareintroducedasdealingwiththecreationoftheearthandthe

heavens. Not sure how you can so confidently assert that they refer to different

events.Howmanycreationswerethere?

41:11 presents the heavens as amorphous (smoke) and then coming at the

commandofAllah.


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21:30speaksofearthandheavenasajoinedentity.Thatwasthenseparated.Ifyou

cannotseetheclearcontradictioninthatyouareattemptingtomassagethetextto

saywhatyouwantittosay.

SomeotherproblemswiththeQuranicaccountsofcreation. Quran2:29statethat

first theearthand then theheavenswerecreated. This iscontradictedbyQuran

79:2730whichreversestheorder.

Thefollowingversesallstatethatcreationofheavensandearthtooksixdays(7:54,

10:3,11:7,25:29)yet ifyoucountthedays inSura41(quotedabove) it is8.Count

themforyourself:earth2days,sustenance4days,sevenheavens2days.

*ThefirstMuslimwas:Muhammad(6:14,6:163,39:12),Moses(7:143),Egyptians(26:51)

What if I tell you, as Muslim's, we can argue that Mohammad himself was NOT the first

Muslim.Adamwas,Noah,Abrahametcetcetc.

I am the first Muslim too...inmy family. Canone notcounterargue with your point that

thoseyoumentionedwereindeedtheFirstMuslimsintheirera?

That isclearlyreadingsomething intothetextthatcannotbefoundthere.Arentyouthe

onesoquicktopointtocontext?Allowmetoquotethedifferentverses:

HereisthetextualanalysisofoneoftheinstanceswhereMuhammadclaimstobethefirst

Muslim. Can you point me to any indication whatsoever that he is making a statement

aboutbeingfirstamongaparticularcommunity?


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I challenge you to do the same in the original Arabic for all the other instances where

primacy of belief is claimed and prove that it is unambiguously linked to people or

timeframes.

Yourargumentrunsintofurthertroublewhenyouapplyittotheotherpersonsmentioned

as the first Muslims or believers. Quran 3:67 states that Abraham was not a Jew or a

ChristianbutaMuslim.YetwhenMosesisdiscussedinQuran7:143hedeclaresthatheis

thefirsttobelieve.Aretheyofdifferentpeople?Notheyarenot;theystandinthesame

historicaltradition.MosescomesintotheframeafterthedescendantsofAbrahamrunsinto

trouble inEgypt.AsamatteroffactMoses isportrayedasfulfillingthepromisesthatGod

madethroughAbraham.Itwould inthiscontext(yescontext!)beexceedinglystrangeand

awkward ifhe identifiedhimself tobe the firstbeliever,especially inanalreadybelieving

communitywithaclearmemoryofAbrahamasthefatherofthefaithful.

FurthermorethereareevidencefromtheQuranthatAllahrevealedhimselftoAaron(the

brotherofMoses)atthesametime(7:143)andalsoevidencethatthattherewereatleast

one Egyptian believer around during Moses time (40:2835, 3846). So we have Moses,

Aaron,thepeopleofIsrael,andatleastoneEgyptianinEgyptwhowerebelieversinAllah.


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YetwhentheEgyptianmagiciansacceptthepathofAllahtheydeclareWearethefirstto

believe.HowevertheycannotbethefirstEgyptianbelieversbecauseAllahalreadytoldus

ofanotherone!Hereistheirstatement:

Noqualificationwhatsoever.Simplyastatementonbeingfirst!Thewholething isamess

andtheirreconcilablecontradictionspileup.

2)TheQur'ancontainsavastnumberofscientificerrors:UponreadingtheQuran Icome

away with the distinct impression that it merely reflects the cosmology of the seventh

centuryArabiandesert. IcannotseeanythingofaGod'seyeviewperspective in the text.

Thereisnothingofgalaxies,ofaninfiniteuniverse,oftheEarthspinningonitsaxis,ofblack

holes.TheseareallthingsthatGodwouldhavebeenabletopointoutandthatwouldhave

immensely impressed us today if we read it. Instead what we find is a deeply flawed

cosmology (when compared to modern scientific knowledge). If I had only the Quran I

wouldhavehadtobelievethefollowingthingsabouttheuniverse

*Shootingstarsaremissilesfordevils(Qur'an67:5)

What isthepurposeofashootingstar?Canscienceexplain?Iknowwhat it isandwhat is

does, itshoots,butwhat is itspurposebesidesdecorating thenightsky?Youdon'tknow

andneitherdoI!Illgowiththemissilesfordevils.

Goodness,areyouseriouslymakingthisargument?Shootingstarscertainlydonotshoot.

Theyare lumpsof rockormetal that travel through theuniverseonrandom trajectories.

When theyenterouratmosphere (ashappenedrecently inRussia) intense frictioncauses


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themtoheatupandburn.Theydonothaveapurposebutthesciencebehindthemhas

beenclearlyunderstoodforcenturies.Whyyouhavetodenythatandreachforanancient

andutterlyunscientificexplanationisentirelybeyondme.Actuallyitisnot.Theonlyreason

why you have to go with such an absurd, premodern and superstitious interpretation is

becauseyourbookcompelsyouto.

*TheearthisflatThemostcommonreferencetotheearthisthatofacarpet

Acommonatheistargument.Myanswer isthesame:Tous,onearth,howdoestheearth

appear?Spinningonitsaxis?Round?Orspreadflatlikeatable?Canyouseethecurvature

oftheearthwhilststandinguponit?Ermno!

Yesweobservetheearthasflatbutthestoryofcreation isnottoldfromourperspective

butfromAllahs.Heshouldnowbetter!Yetalmosteverysingleinstanceoftheearthbeinglike a carpet comes from a passage where the process of creation is described. For

example:

Quran15:19(Thereareseveralotherverseslikethis).

And the earth We have spread out(like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm andimmovable;andproducedthereinallkindsofthingsinduebalance.

The important verb here is madad (protract , reach , elongate , extend , draw out ,

lengthen, stretch out , spread out , sprawl , dilate , reach , range , unwind ,outstretch ,

pervade).

The inescapableconclusion isthatAllahbelievestheworld isflat!This isconfirmedbythe

frequentreferences topillarsandheavenbeing likeacanopyabove it.WhydidAllahnot

makeatleastonestatementtoimpressuswithhisknowledge(Allahseyeviewifyouwill)

of how the world actually looks? Even I can do it: Have you not considered the earth?

Spreadout likeacarpetyet the Lordof theworldallowsyou to traverse itand return to

whereyoustarted.SuchastatementwouldnothaveundulyalarmedtheArabsbutwould

havemightilyimpressedustodayinthewayitdescribestheworldasitactuallyis.YetAllah

doesnot

seem

to

know

any

of

this.


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*Therearesevenplanetsinthesolarsystem Thereareactually8and5dwarfplanets=13

(65:12)

Thereisnoreferenceto"planet"inthatverse...Iclearlysee"Heavens".Notthesamething.

Youmissedthestatementthelikeofthem.Hereisananalysis:

Sothisverseclearlystatesthattherearesevenheavens(atotallyunscientificconceptby

theway)and likewise sevenearths.Thishasalwaysbeenunderstoodasmeaning seven

planets. If you do not accept that interpretation you will 1) Have to argue with Sahih

Bukhari(Volume4,Book54,Number417;seealsoNumbers418,420;Volume3,Book43,

Numbers 632634) and 2) Come up with an alternative plausible explanation. Whichever

wayyougo,youwillcontradictscience.

*NighttimecoldiscausedbytheMoon(76:13)

Howexactlydidyoudeducethatwhichyouclaim?Theverseclearlydoesnotsaythat.

YusufAli(oneofthemostrespectedtranslatorsoftheQuran)whoinfollowingtheinternal

rhythmofthetextrenderstheverseasfollows:Reclininginthe(Garden)onraisedthrones,

theywillseethereneitherthesun's(excessiveheat)nor(themoon's)excessivecold.


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*Themoonis"Noor",whichemitslighttoo(71:16)

Andhathmadethemoona lighttherein,andmadethesunalamp?That'swhattheverse

actuallysays.YoureallyDOstruggleandstraintochangethewordsaroundtosuityourown

ends.

Imafraidtheshoeshouldbeontheotherfootasfarasthatcharge isconcerned.Here is

thetextualanalysisofthewordinquestion.

Thewordnur/noorsimplymeans light.TheAllahseyeviewperspectivemustbethatthe

moonactually reflects light.Butnomention ismadeof this.Themoon is simplycalleda

light.Anothermissedopportunitytodeeplyimpressus!

*Themoonwas'splitintwo' AneventapparentlyonlywitnessedbyMuhammadasitleft

notracewhatsoeverinanyhistorical,astronomicalorarchaeologicalrecord.(54:1)

Therewerewitnesses!AndIhaverecords.Dosomeresearch,please!

It really is no use to me to say that there were witnesses and then providing no proof

whatsoever.Thesearenotmybeliefstodefend.Theburdenofproofrestsonyou.

*Theskyismadeofrockymaterial(34:9)Theverseyousiteinyourargumentdoesnotmakeanysuchclaim!


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Imsorry,thatreferenceiswrong.Itshouldbe50:6.

Thewordfurujinreferstoacrack(inthephysicalsense,asyouwouldfind inarock)ora

rift inarelationship.The ideathatheaven issolid isfurtherreinforcedby21:32wherethe

skyiscalledaroofthatprotects,seebelow.(Bythewayifyouwanttotaketheroute,not

warrantedatallbythetext,todeclareallofthissymboliclanguageyouwillimmediatelybe

struckwithanotherhugeproblem.Even inasymbolicsenseheaven isnotwithoutcracks

orsolid.Everheardofblackholes?)


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*Weliveinageocentricuniversewiththeheavensmovingaroundearth(cf.40:69,27:61)

Noneofthosetwoversesyousite inyourargumentcomecloseto implyingwhatyousay.

Reread.

Apologiesfor40:69.Myreferencingwasabitmixedupthere.However,27:61clearlystates

thattheearthissolidandfixed.LetslookattheissueofgeocentrismintheQuraninmore

detail.

1. WhenwereadtheQuran(andmakeastronomicalobservations)wequicklydeduce

thatthemoonrevolvesaroundtheearth.Earthcanthereforebeseenasthecentre

ofthe

moons

circuit.

So

far

so

good.

Now

lets

turn

to

13:2

and

31:29.

Where

itis

madeclearthatthemoonandtheQuranfollowsappointedcourses(13:2)andthat

they follow each other (lshamsawalqamara kullun yajr il musamman each

movingforatermappointed)resultinginnightandday.Thetextthereforeteaches

that themoon follows thesun ina termor routeappointed.TheQuran isclear

thatthemooncirclestheearth,thesunfollowsthemoon,thusthesunorbitsearth!

This istheobvious interpretationand it isentrenched inthehadith.SahihBukhari

SahihBukhari4:54:421:NarratedAbuDharr:TheProphetaskedmeatsunset,"Do

you knowwhere the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His

Apostleknowbetter."Hesaid,"Itgoes(i.e.travels)tillitprostratesItselfunderneath

theThroneandtakes thepermissiontoriseagain,and it ispermittedandthen (a

timewillcomewhen)itwillbeabouttoprostrateitselfbutitsprostrationwillnotbe

accepted,and itwillaskpermissiontogoonitscoursebutitwillnotbepermitted,

butitwillbeorderedtoreturnwhenceithascomeandsoitwillriseinthewest.And

thatistheinterpretationoftheStatementofAllah:AndthesunRunsitsfixedcourse

fora term (decreed).That is TheDecreeof (Allah) TheExalted inMight, TheAll

Knowing."(SeealsoSahihMuslim1:297,SahihBukhari9:93:520)

2. TheQuranplacestheearthrightattheheartofitscosmology.Ittellsusthatthereis

onlyonesun,onemoonstarsandsomeotherearths,7intotalasdiscussedabove.

(Weseek invain forAllahseyeviewreferences togalaxies,asteroids,blackholes

etc).Thepositionofthissinglesunandmoonisclearlydefined.Theheavensare7in

total, a totally unscientific concept. (Please dont respond with references to the


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layers of the earths atmosphere as it is clear that the stars, well beyond our

atmosphere,areinthelowestheavencf.37:6)Theheavensareobviouslyabovethe

earth.Thesunand themoonarecontainedwithin theheavensand followsimilar

coursesordainedbyAllah.

3. The heavens are held firmly in place by Allan to prevent them from moving and

perhaps falling on what he placed in the centre: earth (2:22

29, 35:41, 21:104,2:65,17:92,34:9)

Ifyoucannotsee that this isa totallymessedupandunscientificcosmology thatcan

onlyhavebeenprovidedbysomeonewhohadnoastronomicalknowledge (acertain

desertArabperhaps?)youare indeepdenial.This isnotwhatwewouldexpectfromsomeonewithanAllahsEyeView!

Myresponsetoyourclosingstatementfollowsbelowit.

===========================================================================

Inconclusion, IhaveonlybeenaMuslim for3 yearsandalready Icanpokegapinghuge

holesineachandeveryoneofyourarguments!CanIputitthisway ifIcancounterargue

you,whatchancedoyouhavewhenbringing theabovearguments tosomeonewhohas

beenstudyingIslamictextsfortheirentirelife?Isthisthereasonwhyyoudeliberatelyseek

out and find new Muslim Converts, hoping to sow the seeds of doubt into their

impressionable minds? Perhaps you might understand why I replied to your Tweet using

#Kafir#Infidel#Shaitan whatdoyouhonestlyhopetogainbymakingmedisbelieve?My

religionteachesmethatyouareequaltoorgreaterthantheDevilhimselfforsuchconduct.

Nooffence!LikeIdidn'ttakeoffencewhenyoutoldmetodosomethingbetterwithmylife.

Ifyounotice from theabove, Istoppedonyourpoint#2outof10because Icananswer

everythingyouclaimanddonotfeelitisanadequateuseofmytimetoargueanyfurther

with(a)someonewhoclearlyhasnotdoneanyresearchotherthanaGooglesearchand(b)

speaks with no authority you may have changed the words but the ideas you have

plagiarisedelsewhere.IrecallresearchingtheexactsameversesyouquotedaboveBEFORE

IbecameaMuslim.AndhereIam!Icouldntconvincemyselfthatthesearecontradictions


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anderrors(becausetheyarenot)sowhatmakesyoutheantiHolyCrusaderthatbelievesto

the depths of your soul that you can convince me? Clearly you cannot if I can look

objectivelyatyourargumentsandcounterargueyou in4A4pages in lessthanonehour!

Had Ibeenyour tutorand thisyourdissertation, this isaFAILwithacommentnext to it

whichreadsmusttryharder.

===========================================================================

Inconclusion:1)Overconfidencehavebeenthedownfallofmanyanapologistandyoucertainlydisplayed

thatinspades.Youcertainlydidnotpokeanyholesinmyargumentsandcould,infact,not

managetolandasingleblow!IcanalsoassureyouthatIhavedebatedmanyscholarsand

theyallprefertocutandrunafterawhile.

2)Iamagrownupanddidnottakeoffenceat:#Kafir#Infidel#Shaitan.Theyare,however,

indicative of a mind that has succumbed to the indoctrination inherent in oppressive

ideologies. Click here for an extended discussion of this. I am sure you will recognise

yourself:http://www.twitlonger.com/show/l77s3n

3)Mydetailedrebuttalmeansthatyourboastfulcommentthatifyouanswered2outof10

of my objections means that you need not bother with the other 8 holds no water

whatsoever.InlifeasinmathematicsprovingAandBdoesnotautomaticallyproveC,D,E,

F,G,H,IandK.Besidesasyouwillbynowbeawareyoudidnotevencomeclosetoproving

AandB! Thecaseagainst Islam issimplyoverwhelming.Myotherobjectionsprovingthe

utter unbelievability of Islam lies like Mount Everest before you and you have not even

managedtoclearthefoothills!Ireproducethembelow.

Saveyourselfthetroubleandwalkawayfromanideologythatcannotwithstandcritical

scrutiny.

Regards,

Peter


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ObjectionsNotAddressedinYourRebuttal3)LargepartsoftheQur'anseemstohavebeenwrittenforthebenefitofasingleperson:

YoubelievethattheQur'anisGodsfinalwordandtheguideforfaithandpracticeforthe

wholeworldfromSouthAmericatoChina.YetAllahcouldnotfindplaceinitspagesforthe

Shahada,thefivepillars,howoftenyouhavetoprayandmanyothercrucialbitsof

information.Hedid,however,findtimetosettlethedomesticsquabblesofonesingle

individual.IfyoudonotfindthatatleastalittlebitstrangeImafraidthatyouaresimply

weddedtoapreexistinguncriticalvenerationoftheprophet.Herearesomeexamples:

*AllahrevealsthatMuslimsareonlyallowedtomarryfourwomen(4:3).Muhammadwants

more.Howconvenient!Hegetsarevelationallowinghimtomarryasmanyashewants.It

explicitlystatesthatthisprivilegeisforyouonly,notfortherestofthebelievers(33:50)

*Allahrevealsthatmultiplewivesarealwaystobetreatedequally(4:3).YetMuhammad

developsfavouritesamonghiswives,wantingtospendmoretimewithsome.How

convenient!Hepromptlyreceivesarevelationtellinghimthathecanpostponeand

receivehiswivesasheseesfit(33:51)

*Muhammaddesiresthewife(Zaynab)ofZaid,hisadoptedson.Zaiddivorceshersothat

Muhammadcanmarryher.Thiscausesagreatdealofgrumblingamonghisfollowers,many

ofwhomregardhisactionsastantamounttoincest.Howconvenient!Allahimmediately

stepsinwithanotherspecialrevelationmakingitclearthatwhenadoptedsonsaredone

withtheirwivestheiradoptedfathersmaymarrythemandthatwhoeverquestionsthis

rulingquestionsAllah!(33:37)

*Muhammadhadsexwithaslave(MarytheCopt)towhomhewasnotmarried.Thewife

(Hafsa)whoseturnitwasthatnightfuriouslyobjected.Muhammadpromisednottotouch

MaryagainifHafsakeepsquiet.Shedoesntandascandalensues.Howconvenient!Ever

faithful,Allahstepsintosmooththingsover:"OProphet!Whydoyouban(foryourself)

thatwhichGodhasmadelawfultoyou"(66:1)

4)Muhammad's'perfectexample'isthoroughlydisreputableandwouldlandhiminprison

ineverysinglecountryoftheworldtoday:

*Heforcedseveralofhisenemies(e.g.AbuSufyan)toaccepthisprophethoodorbe

executed.


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*Heforcedhisadoptedson(byreceivingarevelationfromGod)todivorcehiswifesothat

hecouldmarryher(SahihMuslimVolume2Number2347;SahihBukhariVolume3Number

249;seealsoQuran33:638).

*Hemarried,andhadsexwith,awomanonthesamedaythatherhusband,father,

brotherandmostofherfamilywereslaughteredbyhisfollowers(SahihBukhariVolume2

number68andVolume4number143,280)Itisclearthatheconsideredhertobepartof

thespoilsofwar.

*HemarriedAishawhensewassixandconsummatedthemarriagewhileshewasonlynine

(SahihBukhariVolume7Book62Number64)Onetraditionevenstatesthatshewasstill

playingwithdollsatthetimethemarriagewasconsummated(SahihMuslimVolume8

Number3311)Onlyprepubescentgirlswereallowedtoplaywithdollssoclaimsthatshe

wasactuallyolderisfalse.

*Hecommittedgenocidebyallowingtheslaughter900(theysurrendered)unarmedmale

membersoftheBanuQurayzah(Jewish)tribeaftertheyrefusedtoembraceIslamand

receiveddivinesanctionforit(Quran33:2526).

*Heorderedtheassassinationofseveralpeoplewhowerecriticalofhim(e.g.thepoets

AsmabintMarwanandAbuAfak).

*HeorderedthetortureofKinanaalRabitowitharedhotirontoencouragehimto

revealthewhereaboutsofahiddentreasure.

*Hebrokeatreaty(ThetreatyofHudabiyyah)whichcommittedhimtoliveinpeacewith

thepeopleofMecca.Againheconvenientlyreceivesarevelationjustifyinghisactions

(Quran60:10).

*Heallowedhisfollowerstorapecaptivewomen(SahihMuslimBook8Number3371)and

toseethemaspartoftheirrewardforfightingbattlesforthesakeofIslam(Quran23:56)

Nowaskyourself,whatwouldourworldbelikeifweallfolloweda'perfectexample'like

this?

5)ItispossibletopointoutthetextualsourcesoftheQur'an:YouclaimthattheQur'anis

perfect,thatthereis'nobooklikeit'.YetexamplesofwhereMuhammad'borrowed'from

preIslamicsourcestowritethisbookcanbepiledup:

*Quran21:5171(InwhichAbrahamtakesissuewithhisfathersidolatry)isanalmostexactretellingofanillustrationonthedangersofidolatryinventedbyaJewishRabbi(Rabbi


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Hiyya)whichisretoldintheMidrashHabbaGenesis.

*Quran5:3132(InwhicharavenshowsCainwheretoburyhisdeadbrother)shows

amazingsimilaritieswiththeTargumofJonathanbenUzziahandtheMishnahSanhedrin

(4:5).Bothoftheseare(differenttypesof)JewishcommentariesontheTorah.

*Quran27:1744(whichtellsthestoryofSolomonandtheQueenofSheba)copiesanother

ancientJewishmanuscriptnamelytheTargumofEshter.

*ItisnotonlyJewishstoriesthatwerecopiedintheQuran.SomeearlyChristianfables

wereincludedaswell.Quran5:110mentionthefactsthatJesuscouldspeakwhilehewas

stillinthecradleandthathewasabletobreathelifeintobirdsofclay.Theseareboth

legendsfromextraBiblicalChristiansources.InthefirstcasefromTheGospelofThomas

theIsraeliteandthesecondfromTheGospeloftheInfancyofChrist.

*InQuran18:924wefindthestoryofsomeyoungpeoplewhowerepreventedfrom

hearingfalsedoctrinethroughbeingshutupinacaveformanyyears.Thisstoryshows

remarkablesimilaritiestotheOrthodoxfolktaleoftheSevensleepersofEphesus

6)ThetextualhistoryoftheQur'anisfraughtwithdifficulty:Youclaimthatthereisonlyone

versionoftheQur'anandthatthiswascodifiedbyAli(withtheconcurrenceofthe

prophet).SunniswillclaimthatthisprocesswasspearheadedbyUthman.Thisishowever,

clearlyfalse:

*TherearedifferentversionsoftheQur'anopenlyonsaleintheIslamicworld(Hafs,Warsh,

Qalun,alDuri).Theycontainmarkeddifferences,tothepointofsometimesevenchanging

theobjectsofverbs.

*TheearliestversionoftheQur'aneverfound(theSana'amanuscript)isverydifferent

fromtheQur'anusedbymostMuslimstoday

*SeverallaterMuslimleaderslaterclaimedtohavemadechangestotheQur'an.Most

notableamongthesewasAlHajjajIbnYusufAlThakafi(660714)whoopenlyboastedof

themanychangeshemadetotheQur'anandclaimedthatheworked'onlyunder

inspiration'

7)TheQur'anclearlyteachespaedophilia:Qur'an65:4spellsouttherulesfordivorcingagirl

whohad'notyetmenstruated'.Itprescribesawaitingperiod(iddah)thatwillhavetobeobservedbeforeshecanremarry.Thiswaitingperiodonlyappliesincaseswherethecouple


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actuallyhadsex(33:49).Alloftheavailablescientificevidencepointstothefactthatsex

withgirlswhohadnotyetmenstruatedisadisaster.Sciencetellsusthatthephysicaland

emotionalfalloutcantakedecadestorecoverfrom.NowagainIaskyou:Whowouldwant

todefendthepositionthatsexwithsuchgirlsshouldbepermissibleexceptifyouhadto.

Youreagoodman,whoIbelievewouldnotwanttoseeanyonehurt,butsadlyyouhaveto

saythatsexwithprepubescentgirlsisokaybecauseofQuran65:4.

8)Islamkeepspeople'inside'byforce:Youwill,nodoubt,saythereis'nocompulsionin

religion'(Qur'an2:256).ThisiscontradictedbymanypassagesintheQuranwherebelievers

arecommandednotonlytoscoremilitaryvictoriesovertheirenemiesbuttoalsousetheir

militarysuccessestoestablishIslam.Qur'an8:39isagoodexampleofthis:Andfightthem

untilthereisnofitnahand[until]thereligion,allofit,isforAllah.Andiftheycease then

indeed,AllahisSeeingofwhattheydo.ItisalsocontradictedbybothSunniandShia

hadithandjurisprudencewhereitisclearthattheultimatepunishmentforapostasy(i.e.

whenpreviouseffortstogetapersontorepentwereunsuccessful)isdeath.Nowhowon

earthcanyoucallthisnocompulsioninreligion?Itseemsthatthisismerelyaoneway

streetinthesensethatyouarefreetoenter(althoughinthelightoftheversequoted

aboveeventhisisdebatable)butonceyouareinyouarelockedinandcanneverleave.If

youthinkthatthisismerelyanancientproblemIreferyoutothefactthatjudicialand

extrajudicialexecutionsofapostatesarenotunknownintheMuslimworldandthatitis

impossibleinthevastmajorityofMuslimcountriestolegallychangeyourreligionfrom

Islamtosomethingelse(whereasitwouldbepossibletochangeyourreligionfrom

somethingelsetoIslam).Nowwhatarewetomakeofthetruthclaimsofafaithwherethe

founderwassoinsecureandunsureoftheappealofhismessagethathehadtocompel

peoplewiththemostextrememeasurespossibletoremaininside?Howarewetosquare

thiswithmodernconceptionsofhumanrightsandaboveallwiththemuchtoutedideaof

nocompulsioninreligion?

9)Thewitnessofhistory:WhenIslamisexaminedintheclearlightofhistoryitcomesoff

verybadlyindeed.Justafewexamples:

*ThereisnotasingleclearanduncontestedreferencetoMeccabeforethetimeofIslam:SomethingverystrangeforacitythatwassupposedtobetheepicentreofArabiantrade.


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ThefactthatMuslimapologistshavetoscramblearoundtryingtofindreferencesinthe

Bible(whichtheyotherwisebelievetobecorrupt!)andthattheyproposeallsortsof

alternativespellingsonlyaddstotheembarrassment.Numerousdocumentsfromthepre

Islamicperiodcamedowntousdetailingtraderoutes,listingtribesandpopulationsofthe

region.Glaringlyabsent:Mecca!

*TheRomanskeptdetailedlistsofallthedeserttribesofArabia(forthepurposeoftrading

withthem,recruitingtheirmembersasmercenariesetc.)Yetitseemstheyneverheardof

thesupposedlymostpowerfultribeintheHejaz:TheQuraysh(thepowerfultribetowhich

Mohammedsupposedlybelonged)!TheydonotappearinasingleRomanregisterandalso

notinasinglenonMuslimsourceuntillongaftertheadventofIslam.

*NonMuslimsources,theDoctrinaIacobiandtheArmenianChronicleof660AD,maintain

theArabsandtheJewswerealliesaslateas640AD.ThisdirectlycontradictstheQur'an.

*TherearenoarchaeologicalreferencestoIslam,MuhammadortheShahadauntilabout

690AD.Coinsandinscriptionsdatedtobeforethisdatecontainstatementsofmonotheism

butnothingthatcanbeunambiguouslybelinkedtoMuhammad.Acuriousomissioninlight

ofhissupposeddominance.

*TherearenomentionsoftheQuranbyunbelieversforafull60yearsaftertheearly

Islamicconqueststookplace.Nothingatall,notaword!Theywereperfectlyunawarethat

theirconquerorshadabook.Similarlythereisnoreferenceatalltoaprophetbythe

conqueredpeopleoverthesameperiod.

*Alloftheearliestmosquesthathavebeenexcavatedhavetheirqibla(directionofprayer)

pointingtowardsNorthernPalestineandnotMecca.

Thisisjustthetipoftheicebergwhenitcomestothewaysinwhichhistorycontradictsthe

traditionalIslamicaccount.Themessage:Doubteverythingthatyouthinkyouknowabout

MuhammadandtheearlyhistoryofIslam.

10)ThetestimonyofcontemporaryIslam:Mylastpointissomewhatmorephilosophicalin

naturebutstillveryimportant.YoubelievethatIslamisamercytomankindandthatthe

Qur'ancontainsAllah'struth.Youwouldthereforeexpectthatplaceswherethismessageis

followedwillbehavensofpeace,prosperityandprogress.Doesthiscorrelatewithourlived

experienceinthe21stcentury?Itdoesnot!ArepeopleflockingtogetintoMuslimcountries?Aretherelengthyimmigrationqueuesofpeoplewishingtopermanentlysettlein


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thelikesofSaudiArabia,PakistandandIran?Itisactuallytheotherwayaround:Millionsof

peopleareclamouringtoleaveMuslimsocietiesinordertogoandliveamongpeoplethey

regardasinfidels.Thisiscognitivedissonanceofthehighestorder!Herewehaveplaces

wheremillionsreadtheQur'aneveryday,wheremanyofthemprayfivetimesaday,where

theprinciplesofIslaminformmanyoftheirdecisions.Yetmanyofthemcannotwaittoget

thehelloutofthere.Islamicsocietieslagbehindinscience(Swedenproducesmorepeer

reviewedscientificpapersthantheentireArabworld!),humandevelopment,educationand

almostanymeasurethatyouwouldcaretoadopt.Itwouldnotdotosaytomethatthishas

nothingtodowithIslam.HowarewetoevaluatethemessageofIslamotherthanobserving

thosewhofollowit?Allthatwecanseeismillionsofpeoplereadingthisbookandcreating

societieswherepeopledonotwanttolive.

Sojusttorevisityourlaststatementtome,youcalledmylogicflawed.Iwouldsuggest

thatyouneedtoexamineyourownlogicinlightofwhatIhavejustwritten.Anyofthe10

statementsabovewouldbeenoughtogetathinkingpersontoseriouslydoubtthe

teachingsofIslam.Thecaseofall10ofthemcombinedisoverwhelmingandconclusive.Yes

youmayattempttoarguewithaversehereorthere,ormassagesometextstoharmoniseit

withanothereverynowandthenbutthesheerforceofevidence(andIcouldhaveadded

manymorepointsbesidesthis10)pointstoaconclusionthatyouwouldprobablyfindvery

unpalatable:TraditionalIslamicteachingcannotwithstandcriticalscrutiny.Thisiswhyso

manyattemptsarebeingmadetoblockcriticismofIslameventothepointofthreatening

tokillthosewholeaveit.Asaperson,however,whoprideshimselfonhisintelligenceyou

havetoaskyourself:DoIfollowtheevidencewhereitleads?Ifyoudoyouwillhaveto

leaveIslam.Ifyoudon'tyouwillhavetoacknowledgethatyouaresimplytakingonblind

faithstatementsthatareamplydisprovedbylogic,textualanalysis,sociologicalanalysisand

thelivedexperienceofmillionsofpeople.

Thinkforyourself.Ifyoudoyouwillseethatblindfaithonlyleadsyouintowalls.

Regards,

Peter

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