12 GEARS March 2006 I n a previous article, another TCRA board member said, “If we can all have a better understanding of the terms and definitions used in converter production, we will all benefit in the long run.” With all of the great technical data provided about torque converters in the last year, I do believe the industry in general has a much better understanding of torque converters and the problems faced by torque converter rebuilders, as well as the problems trans shops face with problem torque converters with specific regard to TIR (Total Indicated Runout; Sidebar #1, page 17). So as we continue toward devel- oping standard rebuilding practices or recommended minimum guidelines, more than a few people have asked, “what’s taking so long?” This is a legitimate question with no simple answer. The biggest issue is getting everyone on the same page. It can be a daunting task to get all of the brightest and most talented people in the industry to think the same way. Individually, they’ve all led themselves to successful careers in this industry. But all of the members got there by completely different methods. I explain it this way: If 10 people were asked to drive from New York to California, would everyone take the exact same roads to get there? Probably not. But would they all get there? No doubt. Keep in mind that each person may be driving a different vehicle. One person may be driving a sports car; another an SUV; still another a tractor trailer. Each person may also have a different strategy to get there. The guy in the sports car might want to get there the fastest way possible; the guy in the SUV might look for the safest route; the guy in the tractor trailer would probably take the most fuel efficient path. Are any of these approaches wrong? Absolutely not! They’re just different approaches to the same task… which is why it can take such a long time to agree upon what the standards Torque Converter Dimensional Tolerance …a Long and Winding Road W i n d i n g by Joe Rivera, ProTorque; TCRA Board Member Figure 1 - Courtesy of Branting Industries Figure 2 - Courtesy of Dacco
Transcript
12 GEARS March 2006
In a previous article, another TCRA board member said, “If we can all have a better understanding of the
terms and definitions used in converter production, we will all benefit in the long run.”
With all of the great technical data provided about torque converters in the last year, I do believe the industry in general has a much better understanding of torque converters and the problems faced by torque converter rebuilders, as well as the problems trans shops face with problem torque converters with specific regard to TIR (Total Indicated Runout; Sidebar #1, page 17).
So as we continue toward devel-oping standard rebuilding practices or recommended minimum guidelines, more than a few people have asked, “what’s taking so long?”
This is a legitimate question with no simple answer. The biggest issue is getting everyone on the same page. It can be a daunting task to get all of the brightest and most talented people in the industry to think the same way. Individually, they’ve all led themselves to successful careers in this industry. But all of the members got there by completely different methods.
I explain it this way: If 10 people were asked to drive from New York to California, would everyone take the exact same roads to get there? Probably not. But would they all get there? No doubt.
Keep in mind that each person may be driving a different vehicle. One person may be driving a sports car; another an SUV; still another a tractor trailer. Each person may also have a different strategy to get there. The guy in the sports car might want to get there the fastest way possible; the guy in the SUV might look for the safest route; the guy in the tractor trailer would probably
take the most fuel efficient path.Are any of these approaches
wrong? Absolutely not! They’re just
different approaches to the same task… which is why it can take such a long time to agree upon what the standards
Torque Converter Dimensional Tolerance…a Long and Winding RoadWinding
by Joe Rivera, ProTorque; TCRA Board Member
Figure 1 - Courtesy of Branting Industries
Figure 2 - Courtesy of Dacco
rivera-tcra.indd 12rivera-tcra.indd 12 2/10/06 11:36:35 AM2/10/06 11:36:35 AM
GEARS March 2006 13
should be for a rebuilt torque converter. TCRA’s goal is to get from here — a series of misunderstandings about what a rebuilt torque converter consists of — to there — a set of industry accepted practices and standards for a properly rebuilt torque converter.
One thing that we can all agree on is the need for common definitions and a glossary of terms. So, with that said,
here is the next item for discussion, and this one may be the most controversial: TIR (see Sidebar #2, page 18).
TIR, or Total Indicated Runout, seems to be the hardest definition to work out because of the many vari-ables. Keep in mind, there are many makes and models of torque convert-ers, and they aren’t all checked the exact same way. I’d like to say that I
have the absolute answer on this, but the reality is, at this moment, I don't think anyone really has the one and only definition for TIR. Why? Because measuring anything is a matter of both the subject being measured, and of the measuring equipment being used. So, oddly enough, to come up with defini-tions for TIR, we first need to identify what we’ll use to measure it.
Figure 3 - Courtesy of Dacco Figure 4 - Courtesy of Deltrans
United Tranz Core
866-824-7278
United Tranz Core
866-824-7278
Before you call the Rest, Call the Best
“Call, You’ll be glad you did”
• Quality on Transmission parts• Extraordinary Service
• UPS Daily
WWW.UNITEDTRANZCORE.COM
• Supplier of Transmissions• Hard Parts for Transmissions• Torque Converters• Transfer Cases• Foreign & Domestic• Manual & Automatic
No other Parts Washer on the market has the Quality, Features, Horsepower, and Warranty offered at these prices !
800-331-6405 www.instaclean.com
Insta-Clean quality that can’t be beat ! Now at a price that can’t be beat !
One of the biggest sticking points when defining TIR is gauging. As I pointed out in the analogy of crossing the country, the issue of describing TIR becomes difficult because there are several ways to measure TIR. There are also different ways to check TIR for different make and model torque con-
verters. For example, you can’t check a Ford torque converter the same way you would a GM converter. They have different requirements. Some people use a multipurpose indicating fixture or table (figure #1); others use a specific indicating fixture based on a V-block gauge system (figures #2 and 3); still
others actually bolt the converter onto a faceplate of a lathe and indicate from there (figure #4). Some companies use a 5C collet system (figures #5 and 6) while others use a sleeve-type system (figure #7).
Is one method better than another? Not necessarily. As long as the end result is the same: a torque converter with the correct dimensional tolerances. What we’re trying to accomplish is a baseline, guideline, measuring stick or standard.
But whatever you’d like to call it, it’s important that we’re all on the same page. There can be many ques-tions about the variances and issues of a torque converter TIR gauging system.
Figure 5 - TIR Fixture courtesy of ProTorque
Torque Converter Dimensional Tolerance…a Long and Winding Road
Are you using a collet system, a sleeve system, or a V-Block or tilt gauge sys-tem? Another example would be are you checking the TIR with a gauge that’s correct and calibrated? Is the gauge read in 0.001" or 0.0001"? Which is proper? What is acceptable? How often should the equipment be checked
and tested? How well trained is the equipment opera-tor? There’s also something called Gauge R&R, which stands for Repeatability and Reproducibility (see Sidebar #3, page 18). We’ll take a more in depth look at these
measuring systems in future articles.So for now, in the interest of keep-
ing it simple and not complicating an already complicated subject, let’s look at this in general terms instead of spe-cifics. We’ll stick with the GM-style converters for the purpose of keeping it simple. In further articles we’ll dig into other makes of converters and be more specific with each type, whether it has a mounting pad or a mounting stud, in the case of Ford torque converters.
This information is provided as a simple demonstration of what the dimensional tolerance of a torque con-verter should be. The measuring tech-niques should be in SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) basic engineer-ing and measuring terms http://www.sae.org/about/.
The best place to start is with the OE specs for allowable runout. The quick answer? Acceptable TIR should be as low as possible. For most torque converters — assuming you have the correct pro-cedures and machinery — you should strive for zero, with a maximum of three thousands of an inch (0.003"). But many OE blueprints allow for considerably more. So when TCRA provides recommendations for dimen-sional tolerance specifications, they try to remain true to the OE blueprints. But depending on the unit and the measure-ment requirement, TIR can be as little
as 0.0025" or as much as 0.012".Another consideration is avail-
ability: Those blueprints aren’t easily accessible or available to most rebuild-ers. As they become available, we’ll do our best to provide this information to the rest of the industry.
On many of the GM-style convert-ers it’s feasible to check TIR using an indicating fixture (figure #8), which allows you to measure the drive hub in
Torque Converter Dimensional Tolerance…a Long and Winding Road
Figure 8 - Courtesy of ATI-run-out-indicator-table
Figure 3 - Dimension Guide courtesy of ProTorque
This information is provided as a simple demonstration
of what the dimensional tolerance of a torque converter should be.
relation to the centerline of the torque converter, piloted from the diameter of the torque converter pilot. That would simulate the way the torque converter would run in the vehicle.
To visualize what TIR is and how it’s measured, I’ve provided a drawing of the key elements of a torque con-verter blueprint (figures #9 and 10).
So how do we gauge ourselves and decide what’s acceptable practice with all of the different torque convert-er and torque converter testing equip-ment designs? Perhaps we need to ask a larger organization and see what they say. In my quest for the definitions I found an interesting piece of writ-ing on the SAE web site, SAE Paper #J2440 — “Domestic Performance Torque Converter Manufacturing” (issued February, 1998). In Section 4.1.9, the paper discusses TIR and says, “Runout should be less than 0.0025 cm (0.010").”
The purpose of this article is to demonstrate that TIR is a very impor-tant dimensional tolerance that needs to be followed and closely inspected before the torque converter is installed. The gauging system used isn’t impor-tant. What is important is that TIR inspection is a mandatory part of the rebuilding process, as long as the torque converter rebuilder is using a measurement system that allows the finished part to meet dimensional tol-erance based on the SAE and OE requirements.
Like the title mentions, it’s a long and winding road, with many twists and turns. But with a good set of direc-tions and some well thought-out maps, the journey becomes much easier. TCRA is doing its best to be the GPS for your trip.
Sidebar #1Potential Problems from Excessive TIR:
NoiseBushing failureBushing wearVehicle performancePump failureVibrationSeal failureBroken flywheelsCrank pilot wear www.atiauto.com
Chicago4050 S. Wentworth Ave.Chicago IL 60609(800) 826-7403 (773) 624-6111 • (773) 624-6660 (fax)
We have a large inventory of import and domesticcore units…, and we can get them to you fast!
Las Vegas2580 N Commerce St.
N Las Vegas, NV 89030(800) 426-8771
(702)649-7776 • (702) 649-6777 (fax)
That’s how we builtour family core business
In fact, we still operate our business that way. And using that as our cornerstone we’ve grown over the years into a true“Partner to the Professional Rebuilder”.
Torque Converter Dimensional Tolerance…a Long and Winding Road
Figure 10 - Generic TC courtesy of ProTorque
Sidebar #2The following are definitions of
TIR taken from the internet. Surprisingly, most of these references were found on web sites relating to printing press processes and tire runout. If you use the internet as a reference source and a learning tool, type in “total indicated runout” in your favorite search engine and see what you get.
TIR — The term used to describe the amount of movement when read by a certain type of measuring device when measuring the centerline of a given part.
TIR — How certain features of a given part run true to the axis or cen-terline to absolute axis of the part. The term is often confused with circularity or concentricity.
TIR — Abbreviation for Total Indicated Runout, is the change of radius as a function of rotational posi-tion on a roller or an indicating fixture.
T.I.R. — This stands for Total Indicator Reading, which reflects the total absolute deviation from a mean value (versus a + value which indicates the deviation from a nominal value).
Sidebar #3Courtesy Don Randolph of
DACCO and TCRA Board member.
Gauge R&R — Repeatability and Reproducibility
Accuracy: Difference between observed average and true average of the same measurement.
Repeatability: Variation in measure-ment obtained with gauge used several times. Same part – Same operator
Reproducibility: Variation in the aver-age measurement made by differ-ent operators using the same gauge and the same parts.
Gauge Evaluation (calculated as a per-cent of the tolerance):
Under 10% Error ........Very Good10% to 20% Error ................Good20% to 30% Error .Acceptable (?)30%+Error ...........Not Acceptable
Every piece of measuring equip-ment is subject to variations:
Accuracy — Variations exist when equipment is not calibrated.
Reproducibility — Variations from different persons using the equip-ment.
Stability — Periodic variations caused by wear, environment, etc…
Repeatability — Elusive, random intri-cacies: friction, alignment etc…
All of these factors combine to yield the overall effectiveness of the measuring system.
When mounted on Plane F and Point H on Dia. A, Runout of Plane E must not exceed .020" Total. Planes N & F must be Parallel within .020" Total.
When mounted on Dia. B & Point H on Dia. A. Runout of Plane E must not exceed .010" Total. Runout at Point G must not exceed .0023" Total.
A n n u a l 2 0 0 6 S e m i n a r !A n n u a l 2 0 0 6 S e m i n a r !
Mark your calendars. The Torque Converter Rebuilders Association (TCRA) will hold its annual 2006 seminar in Indianapolis, IN, from Thursday, May 11, through Saturday, May 13, 2006. The classroom format seminar will be held on Friday, May 10 at the Radisson Hotel City Centre and will feature speakers from General Motors, Ford, Daimler-Chrysler, Raybestos Powertrain, Sonnax, Precision International and many others.
In addition, this year's program will include a Thursday tour of the Raybestos Manufacturing facility, their Technical Center and the Raybestos Powertrain Lab facilities. On Saturday, the group will be treated to a visit to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway to observe qualifying runs for the Indy 500 race, as guests of Raybestos Powertrain. All of these events will be included in the low registration fee. Don't overlook this great opportunity to meet old friends, have a good time and get caught up with the developments in the Torque Converter industry. There is a reduced registration fee for members, so this is a good time to consider joining TCRA. Log on to the TCRA website at www.tcraonline.com for more information and updates.
The Torque Converter Rebuilders Association is a professional non-profi t organization formed for the betterment of the converter rebuilding industry from industry leaders in the fi elds of Converter Rebuilding, Parts Supplier, Parts Distributor, and Transmission Shop Technicians.
May 11—May 13 • Radisson Hotel City Centre • Indianapolis, IN
TCRA Ad ind2.indd 19TCRA Ad ind2.indd 19 2/10/06 11:16:40 AM2/10/06 11:16:40 AM
