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1 5 TRANSCRIPT UF INTERVIEW 12116/41 Sacramento Co. Sher1ff's Dent GLORIA KILLIAH SGT. HARRY HACHEN DET. JOE DEAN CQQ 02342
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TRANSCRIPT UF INTERVIEW
12116/41
Sacramento Co. Sher1ff's Dent
GLORIA KILLIAH
SGT. HARRY HACHEN
DET. JOE DEAN
CQQ
02342
STATEMENT CF GLORIA KILLIANsec er ,
Transcribed February 2, 19823. Slaugh
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Alright; we'1l be with you in just a second.
Could you leave the door open just a little bit?
Sure-
I've got a cold and I'm havin' a hard time breathin'.
Okay.
(To herself) Shit. Thank you very much.
Youfre welcome.
I hope you don't mind about the door, but £ get kindaclaustrophobic...
Yeah, thst's okay.
...when I've got a cold.
Those cigarettes kinda confine it that much more.
Yeah, I know. Just what I need is a cigarette-
Fight?
Thank you( Ouchl Goddamn! Whew!
Okay; yeah, let's see...GLORIA, can I have you ah...change seats?
Oh, sure.
Sit over here? And I'm right-handed. That makes iteasier for me to...
?esh, I'm left-handed. 'Scuse me.
Sure.
I'll put my feet on your ehair. I got tired ofwaitin'.
You like some Kleenex or something?
Yeah, do you have any?
ML 023423
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I'm goin' through ah...this is the tail end of thething...or something goin' through Sacramento here.
Yeah, well I wish it would hurry up.
Okay; I'm JGE DEAN.
Hi!
This is HARRY MAGHEN and we're detectives with theSheriff's Department here.
Yeah.
And...we are investigating the death of ED DATIES.
U -huh.
And we wants talk to you in regard to that.
Yeah; I'm aware of this. See, I talked to VIRGIL lastnight.
Oh; okay.
In fact, he was so upset I had to go out and stay withhim.
Is he okay?
Yeah; ah...he had some kind of a...besides his othercondition he has some kinda heart condition that whenhe gets really upset...I don't know, he goes into likeheart spasms.
Um.
I don't like him to be alone like that. He had onelast night so I went up and stayed with him.'
He's okay though?
Yeah. He's feelin' better. Yeah, he went out to workthis morning.
Okay.
Ee don't look too good but he went.
Right.
No, I...he wasn't takin' his medicine yesterday.Llneudiblej
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Alright; what is your ah...present home address?
49-TD Emerson Road.
Ckay; and how long have you lived there now?
Hm...'bout six or seven weeks.
and your business address?
Ah...well, I guess you could say the shop. I'm notworking. I'm studying for the bar. But I am workingdown there. I'm doin' the books.
What's the address there at the shop?
19-25 F Street.
F like Frank?
Uh-huh.
And you're what...an accountant? A bookkeeper or...secretary, or. . _
Ah...whetever. See, his father used to he in thebusiness with him and the books are just a real Joke.
U -huh.
The IBS is gonna be rollin' on the floor. And I...I've done that...Z've studied tax law quite heavily.I'm just...redone the books and like today's hisassistant is sick, so he needed somebody down therejust to [inaudible] billing and all that...
Okay.
I'm not gonna get paid very well. '_
Okay; what I'm gonna do at this point is to advise youOf your rights on this thing. Ah...so that we'recovering all the bases.
Gh>huh.
Alright? and having being studying for the oar, you'reaware...
Am I under arrest?
No, not right now.
.' I,¢
Ch, thanks a lot.
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You're welcome. Okay. Before we ask you anyquestions, you must understand your rights. You havethe right to remain silent. Anything you say can beused in court. You have the right to tall; to a lawyerfor advice before we ask you any questio n and havea lawyer with you during questioning. If you cannotafford a lawyer, one will be appointed for you beforeany questioning if you wish. If you decide to answerquestions now without a lawyer present, you will stillhave the right to stop answering at any time. You alsohave the right to stop answering at any time 'til youtalk to a lawyer. You understand that?
Yes,-I understand that.
Is there anything in there that you do not under-stand?
No, there is not.
Okay. Having these rights in mind, are you willingto talk to us about anything that you may know aboutED DAVIES?
Yes.
Okay. alright.
However, there's an inference there that I knowso ething.
Okay; what can you tell us about ED? -5
Nothin'. I saw it on t.v.
Uh-huh.
Vaguely...and I know what VIRGIL told me last nightabout being questioned.
Okay; what did VIRGIL tell you?
Well, he said that ah...he was brought down here andhe was questioned. That ah...apparently the man had:o e into the coin shop hE used to own. And theyasked questions about that. and tha:'s really aboutall. Ee didn't go into much detail- Be wasnfefeelin' very good when I got there. He said he'd beendown here for a long time. Ah...that my name hadcomo up. They asked him if he lived alone, and he saidno. Made a fool outa himself because he eoulin'tremember my name. and ah..that's about it. That ah...apparently he ne: him once or twine.
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He'd come into the shop.
Okay.
I don't know what for. I guess to buy someth* g'cause he used to own Allied Coins. That's about whathe said. That just about covered i
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Okay- Had you ever been into the coin shop?
Uh-huh. In ah...I think twice.
And who was...who nas'in the shop when you went *Qthere?
Ah...VIRGIL and I gue...I think his name's CHARLIEthe man who was his partner at the time.
Uh-huh.
Ee was there.
Okay; do you remember any conversations that too;place?
Well, I went in there with a irlfriend. Tha 'S how5I first met him. Ah...no, I don't remember what shewent in there for, come to think of it. Andremember lookin' at the...some Jewelry and Siuflthat was about it; browsin' around.
Was ED in the shop then?
I don't know. I wouldn't know him if I saw
You've never seen him.
No; not that I know of. The second time I th_nk themay have been another ousto er in there. Z'm "ct sure
what did that customer look lihe?
I haven*t the vaguest idea. I'm not sure that rewas one in there but I think so. I'm pretty Lrethere was somebody coming in the second time 'oanseI remember the buzzer goin' off. But I wouldn'couldn't tell you for sure.
And nobody can get in the shop unless they're ouzin?
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Yeah. You gotta be buzzed in and buzzed out. I thinksomebody came in but I wouldn't even swear to that.(lnaudible) I remember that. It was quite awhile ago.I remember they had a couple nice pieces of Jewelry,and that surprised me.
In the coin shop?
Uh-huh; and I think {inaud1ble} a bracelet orsomething in the case. That was about it.
Okay. In VI3GIL's discussing the business and what-not at home with you, what do you recall?
Discussing what business; the coin business?
The coins and...and precious metals and what...
Not very much. About the only thing he's ever hadto say about it was that ah-..their partnership didnltsh...termdnate very politely.
Can you expand on that a little bit?
Well, he asked me a couple questions that had to dowith ah...ah...how they...it was done...how it wasset up in the partnership. That type of thing. That,you know...strictly more or less legal type questions.Ah...how you set up a partnership; how you put up apartnership, how you do your accounting when you'redissolving a partnership.
Uh-huh.
So that like if you ah...I guess Ifll have to give youa hypothetical is the best way I can describe it. Ifyou each contribute sothen when you break upaccount for the assetsnot wind up paying for
Okay.
Things like that.
That was the situation
many assets to the partnership,your partnership how do youthat were already put in and-certain things twice.
that VIHGIL was in?
Those are the only questions that he asked...we iidn'tdiscuss it very much but he mentioned that once ortwice...that he wasnft real pleased with the way thatit had {inaudible) to put it mildly and that hethought that he got turned a little hit there.
In talking with VZRGIL yesterday, he said that he iid'ir-cuss things with you is why In esL»:i::g.
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Oh, yeah; but they were mostly of a legal nature.
Could you expand?
Again, it was that type of thing. He was talking aboutthe partnership and the fact that he thought he gotburned on a few things; that things were ah...they...the things...they didn't have an accounting which ishow you usually dissolve a partnership in somethinglike that. I guess they just sat down and said "Well,here's one for you and one for me...and two for me andnothin' for you' or s mething. And he was talking abouthow you do an accounting on a partnership. That'sabout it. And he ah.-.told me a little bit aboutsilver dollars 'cause when I was in Alaska I used towork for a man that collected silver dollars. I waskinda curious about those. Thet's about it.
Uh-huh- Okay. Do you recall ?IRGIL talking aboutED?
No.
Not at all?
No, not 'til last night. I never heard the name beforethat I recall.
You remember seeing the account on television?
vaguely; aee...?I3GIL won't let me watch the news andhe won't take a newspaper. If there's anything _
depressing on, or like violence or anything to do with`
war, he gets up and turns it off. And he's also gota bac habit of talkin' when I'm tryin' to watch t.v.I'm not there very much, but I heard it...I think Isaw it flash on t.v. at home. Okay? But I heard aboutit the next day. I was watchin' t.v. ah...somewhereelse; the shop. Now, I con't know what day it waslThere was another killing. The DUTRA family? Thatwoman? Okay. That caught my attention because Ibelieve I know the family. I think I went to schoolwith one of the sons. and whatever channel I waswatching, they said that they thought...they eitherthought there might be a link cr they thought theremight not be a link. Inat's how much attention I waspaying 'cause it was down't the shop and the phonewas ringin'...;ecple running in and out.
o
and that's about how much attention I paid to it.That's when it kinda clicked that there had been onethe day before, and I vaguely remembered it.
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'Cause I thou¢_;ht...I thought I saw them carryingsomeone on a stretcher...something...a body or...
On the newsreel?
Yes, but I don't know what channel it was or anythingelse. I try to catch the news but it's almostimpossible. {Inaud1ble)
So to your knowledge, then you're saying that youdon't know ED; don't remember meeting him?
No. I don't know where I would've met him.
What about Mrs. DAVIES?
No. I have no idea where I could have met her.
Have you ever been to any houses over on Rosemont?Excuse me, Rosewood.
Rosewood? Ko.
Never been there?
No. I've been in Rosemont maybe twenty years ago?My stepfather's half brother...I never sure what thatwus...but, he hed a house over in Rosemont, and I'vebeen there e couple times. I don't know what streetit was on. I don't remember.
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My stepfather and my mother-in-law were divorced. Idon't even know if he's alive. I have no idea ifCLI3T's
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alive.
And CLINT is who?
My stepfatherfs half brother or whatever he was.
Okay; whatever.
Yeah.
The last time that you would have been in ah...Rose-mont development then would've been when?
Years ago as far as I know.
1Key.
Where is Rosemont? Is that...that thing off ofFolsom?
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South of Folsom Blvd.
Does it have a sign with a rocking horse on it or
something?
iherefs a sign; I don't recall the horse.
Oh- Well...
It's south of Folsom Blvd., east of Watt. There's eMcDoneld's there at the corner of Manlove and Folsom.That's...that begins the housing (inaudihle}.
(Interrupt1ng] Okay, well...let me back up herebecause ah...I worked as an investigator for abouttwo years, a year and a half, two years. It's possiblethat I was there then. I couldn't say for sure. Idid a lotsa process serving, a lotta skip chasing.
What outfit were you employed by?
I worked for John's Investigative Services. I alsoworked for a couple attorneys.
Johnson Investigative Services is where?
He's defunct. Ee finally passed the ber, and it isno more.
Okay. What was his first name?
sms._
GARY JOEHSON?
Yeah.
D0 You recall what the business address was when itwas functioning? '_
Yeah, it was out on Fai: Oaks Blvd. [Inaudiole}Fair Oaks Blvd.
youAnd that would have been how long ago that/worked forhim?
well, the last time I saw him was the day that ah...myattorney sold his car at public auction and :het wasabout 5 months ago. Ah...there was a judgment againsthim.
Bm.
So ah...(insudiole] for quite some time. about a yearago. 1
023431i Hear 220.
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Yeah.
Does that put it into the middle of ah...l9EO?Yeah.
And then you worked for some attorneys?
Yeah. A 1otta...I did a lotta that for HOWARDHOFFMAN. Ee's also my attorney.
Who?
HOWARD HOFFMAN.
HOFTMAH?
Uh-huh.
'Xsy. Where's he located?
Ah..he's on T20 Howe Avenue.
Okay, so while warring as a process server then...
I done process serving, investigations, skip tracing;the whole nine yards.
Then it seems...
It's possible.
Do you remember specifically?
NO, I really don't.
'Chase it's kind of a...a1most a pocket area thet'sseparate from...from any of the other parts ofSacramento.
-
Yeah, but 1t...there was an awful lot comin' off laRiviera...down't the far end. I remember that.
Uh-huh.
Because it's...when I was married thst's where I lived,so...ri5ht off of Riviera. But no, I wouldn't swearto it. l=ve been all over. Well, it seemed like Iwas always in Ric Linda.
Alrig .ht
023432ThBZ'S where I usually wound up.
in ther- :het would have been at less: E :oaths ago.
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Yeah.
Do you know where Rosewood Drive is?
Ho: offhand. I':n sure I could find. it if I had a map.
Hn. Specifically, do you remember ever being onRosewood Drive?
It doesn't ring a bell. But that doesn't mean any-thing. I think I've been on every street inSacramento, at one time or another; either going thereand getting lost.
Bm
flnaudihle) No. It doesn't :ing a bell, no.
And you could sum up your total knowledge of thisparticular ease by saying you know what about it?
Well, I would say zero but thet's a little bitincorrect because VBGIL did teL1 me that ah...he wasquestioned about it and that the men had been in theshop once or twice.
Okay; but about his death...
I don't know noth1n*.
And where he would live?
Who?-
ED DAVIES.
No. Z don't remember him.
Okay; I think GLORIA, that you're not being honest_withme.
Why?
This incident came to our attention Thursday of lastweek and we have been talking to a lotta people.
Uh-huh.
...since Thursday of last week.
Uh-huh.
Alright. Your name has come up... ,.»
023455In what...what regard?
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Well, that's what I want you to tell me. I believethat you have more knowledge about this than youfreletting on right now.
You mean about his death?
Uh-huh.
But I don't. I don't know anything about the man-
Bow many times have you been to his house?
To whose house?
To ED DAVIES house.
I've never been there.
Never, huh?
No.
You talk to his wife?
I've never been to his house.
Have you ever talked to his wife?
Rot on the...I don't even know what she looks like.Ir I had met her somewhere...it's possible but I csn*tthink'of Where I would met her.
How 'bout at her front door?
At her front door? I told you I've never been to hishouse. I don't know where it ls.
Tell me what you know then about a scheme to obtainsome of his mcney...some of his metals. '-
A scheme to obtain his what? His metals? what do youmean by that ?
Precious metals; gold, silver, coins...
I don't know anything about it.
...cash. Nothing.
Well, I know that ooviously so eone robbed him.
And how do you know that?P g
0234duBecause it said so in the paper.
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Ah...there was a headline. The reason I noticed it ism ex worked for the Sacramento Union and it saidGold Bandits Commit Murder?..or Kill Local Man? I'mnot sure which one it was.
Okay; and what else did the article say?
I didn't read the article. I started to and then Igot interrupted and I never did see the paper. I don'even know what happened to it but it was...1t was ah.,a 3 point type headline.
Ehree point type?
Uh-huh; that's what caught my attention.
Which is...what?
'Jhat is the largest type that they use. 'n1¢TB'S onlyone larger which is k point and they only use thatfor assassinationa or...
You're saying big headline type.
Uh-huh. [Inaudible}
I think you can be a lot more honest with me thanyou're being, GLGRIA.
I don't know what to tell you because I don't knowanything about it. If you ask me specific questions,I'll give you specific answers.
We've talked to a lotta people.
You've already said that.
Yes.
Uh~huh.
and your name Comes up as an organizer.
an organizer? Of what?
Of a robbery.
¥ou're kidding. You're not are you? In the firstplace it...
JO2343"In the first place what?
That' hardly the sort of thing that is recommended ifyou're gonna try to take the bar exam. In the secondplace, I don't do robberies. It's that simple. I'venever one anything. I've never ccm1;tted any crine.Eh, I get e oarking ticket. But. do _.and vc"'*=_
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saying that youfve talked to a lotta people. Youhafta tell me what you're referring to and I can giveyou an answer.
Okay; well, I*m tellin' you what I'm referring tc.That's the robbery of the DAVIES family.
Uh~huh. I had nothing to do with it. I d1dn'torganize it. I didn't know anything about it.
Why do you think somebody would tell us that you were..
{Znaudible interruption}
Well, you're identified by name.
Well, there's a lotta people named GLORIA. Well, nota lot but it's not that uncommon a name.
The information that they give us in naming you as"GLORIA" leads us to you.
Oh, okay.
Alright, So...
{Inaudible)
...we know wefre talking to the right GLORIA. Now.
Possibly. -I don't think you are.
Alright. First of all, let's put it out. There's onlyone GLORIA livin' with V1RGIL, right?
Uh-huh.
Alright, that's you; right?
Uh-huh.
Alright; we got the right GLORIA. Shay, let's go on.That's not an issue. Alright; let's-go on. Why wouldsomebody say that.
I don't know. I have no idea.
You have some enemies?
Well, I don't know.
Well, tha:'s the kinda thing you icnow.
feah. I do.
NEO are your enemies?
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Well, I don't want to particularly get into that butah...I've had so e trouble with one person. Ehet'swhy I'm living with VIRGIL. I've been robbed twice.My car was smashed three times; an ex-roo ate of mine
iu'ho's that?
Her name's MABGE GHEEHWOOD.
Who?
HARGE GREENWUOD. I can't ah...prove that she did it,out apparently she bragged about it.
She bragged about what?
What had happened to me.
Which specifically is?
Well, ah.-.they've broken in my house twice. Theytook ah...everything. They took my television, mystereo, my tapedeek, my tape recorders, all myjewelry, some of m clothes, some of my antiques...
Okay; what we're talkin' about now though is not youbein' the victim.
Ho, but...you were asking me if I had any enemies.
Who is gonna tell us that you're organizing this kindof a thing?
I haven't the faintest idea, whomever told you. Idon't know who told you that.
Well, that's why £'m tryin' to establish if somebodyis an enemy of yours or a cohort or a friend...thst'swhy I'm asking you who are these enemies? '-
I don't...I don't have cohorts.
Okay.
Shcfs the only person I know that has anything...
She's the only person who would bear any ill feelingstoward you.
Well, she apparently hears a great deal of illfeelings towards me. ihy, I don't know. That was
something I never quite understood. Other than that,I couldn*t really say. I'm sure ::ere's some peoplesomewhere that don't like me out ah...:his seems a1it:_e e>:'»:re:.e no pu: it mildly.
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BEAN: Told that you went up to the DAVIES' house.
KILLIAH I went up there? And did what?
DEAN: Do you recall going up to DATIES' house?
KILLIAN~ No. I did not go to DAVIES' house. I'm not 1G05sure where it is to begin with.
DEAN: On Rosewood Drive. I believe that you know where itis. I think it's kinda silly for as to be playinggames with me tellin' you where Rosewood Drive is.
KIIIIAN: When you say 1t's in Rosemont {inaudible}. I probablycould find it if I had a map (inaudiblej. I did notgo to the house.
DEAR: And if someone tolé us that you did go there and thatyou talk to Mrs. DAVIES and went in the house and usedthe phone, and the7're able to identify you specif-ieelly...
End of Side l, Tape l
DEAN: ...being proved correct whi:h leads me to believe...
KILLIAH Whet'd I do? (Inaudib1e}DEAN: Just enough locating you, alright?
KILLIAK: Yeah.
DEAN: Alright. It probably would be...
KILLIAN Well, you mean people I never heard of.
DEAN: It probably would be beneficial to you and to us tosave your time, and us time, for you to be honest.
KILLIAH Enfortunately, whether you believe it or not, I ambeing honest. There's nothing else I can tell you.
DEAN: Tell ze about GARY MASSE.
KILLIAN GARY who? GAR! MASSE?
DEAN: Yeah.
KILLIAN I don't believe I know him.
B-EAN: I believe you mow hix. EIZLZAH HAESE...would you spell it?
GLORIA KILLIAN
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IILLIAH
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EIIIJAR
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EILLIAN
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KILIIAN
MACEEN:
KIIIIAH:
MACEEN:
KILLIAN
MAEHHH:
KILLIAH
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DEAN:
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M-A-S-5-E. Pick a spelllng.
I don't think I know him. I Know a couple peoplenamed GARY but the last name doesn't ring a bell.
When was the last time that you talked to GARY?
I don't know which one you're referring to. I donftthink I Know him.
How many GARXS do you know?
Ah...let's see.
Gr just which GARYS do you know? Wefll do it that way
Well, GAR! JOHNSON. His last name I couldn't forget.
Uh-huh.
And a GARY PFENNING.
GARY PEINNEY?
PFENNING.
Spell it for me will you?
P-F-E-N-N-I-N-G.
P-F-E-?
Uh-huh.
H-H-I-N-G.
U fhuh. I met him when I was...some friends (inaudiHis name was GARY.
Friend of who?.`
Friend of R2CK's. {Inaudible] and there's one otherguy named GARY but I donft know all of their las:names, not that I recall now. I can't think of 'emoffhand either...the last names. And I can nametwo more.
Ihere's two more?
Named GARY that I can think of offhand; yeah.
Saws a friend of ?.IC.'K's? Ch, he's been in the shop; yeah.
Let :e understand; you have GARY JCEHSEN, £531
b
3712
GLORIA KIILTJIN
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KILLIAH
HACEEN:
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MACHZN:
HILLIAH
DEAN:
KILLIAN
BEAR:
KILLIAN:
DEAN:
KILLIAH
DEAN:
IILLIAN
DEAR:
KILLIAN
DEAN:
KIIIIA3
DEAR:
KILLIHN
DEAR:
KIILZAN
PFEHNING
Uh-huh.
And GARY wno's a friend of RICK and one othe GARYyou oan't *e_ember his *est name*
Or, I'm not sure I know 't I know I was Lntroduoeo
zm_h.|m.|
Alright.
to him.
Something recent"
Um...about 3 months r'm no sure even knew h*slast name
Where were you introduced to him"
hh...over at SdIRLEY's
And was the nature of that meeting
I don't know tnink t was in the k1*ohen feed_ng myface, as usual, and an ShIRIEY and I were justtalkin' I think and they Jus. came in and sheintroduced me to him and there we someone else #hathe hell's his name An I started to say LARRY butth.a'c's stupid It <:ou.1dn't be (RRY and LARPY AhMJEE. Th.e4.'s the only one I can errall
And you met Hem at °"TRLEY's House*
Uh'huh Q
How long ago'
Around two or ehvee mootus Wha.'s the aa e cosy"The 15th
16th.
léth? Cculc have *ee month and a na1*Sounds anon ieht
'KBy.
I'n not ve 3 good a dates
And they a e f BUGS o dIRLZ1's"
Iasmme 023440
GLORIA KILLIAN
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DEAR:
KILLIRN
DEAN:
IILIIAH
DEAN:
KTTTTQH
DEAN:
KILLIAN
DEAN:
KILLIAH
DEAN:
IILL1AH
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HZILIAN
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Well, you and SHIRLEY are in the house talking and theycome into the house?
Uh-hun.
Hobody let 'em in; they just came in.
Well, there's a button on the door that you can come in
Okay; but since they weren't friends of yours then wecan assu e they're friends of SHIRLEY's...since theyname over and she introduced you?
Well, see she lives in theso they could have come LnI wasn't paying any ettenteating as a matter of fact
But SHIRLEY introduced you
Uh-huh.
back house over at NEVA's...to see REVA. I don*t know.on; I was in the kitchen...
to GARY and MIKE.
So we can assume that she knows...since she introducedyou?
Uh-huh.
And the other GARY that's a friend of RIGHTS...
I think he's a friend. I don't know, he was customeror se ething and ah...
And when did you meet him?
{Znaudible} I don't remember.
Week ego, month ago, year ago?
It hasn't been that lung.
Okay.
It's been within the past few months. I haven't beendown there that much until recently.
And these are definitely separate GARIS?
Yeas. (2naud;b1e3
Okay; how 'bout somebody named DI SANTOS?
Who? DI senses? {Isauu;b1e) RON Santee, but I donfzthink [ineud1b1e].
We :en ferret RCN.023441
GLORIA KILLIAN
Page 20
KILLIAH
HACKER:
KILLIAN
MACEEK:
KILIIAN
MACHEN:
KILLIAH
DEAR:
KIIIZRN
DEAN:
KILLIAH
L`EA.N:
KILLIAN:
DEAN:
KIIIIAN
DEAN:
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rm-nun. Well, 1n;e...pronab1y.
RON DI SANTOS?
K0-no-no; his name is RON SANTCS.
SAHTOS.
Uh-huh.
...T-O-S, huh?
Yeah.
'Ehyg what about STEVE?
STEVE who?
STEVE anybody?
STEVE. No, not offhand. I can't think of anybodyright now named STEVE.
'Khyg why don't we stop wasting time. Let*s make ourtime worthwhile. Alright?
Uh-_hlltz |»
You aren't bein' honest.
I oan't think of anybody named STEVE. That was thequestion; you say I'm not being honest. (Inaudible]I cannot think of anyone named STE¥E that Z know. No
The thing to which I'm referring is our entireconversation, and your knowledge of the situationregarding ED DAVIE5.
The entire conversation seems to be (inaudible).'
Seems to be what?
Circular. Ah...you ask me a question, I give you ananswer and then you say I'm not being honest. I can'*tell you what I don't know.
I'll buy that. Ihe converse would be true; you canteii me what you do know.
Right.
"""""'
023442.And I am.
To 2 ecint.
__ _-
_-
i. _
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GLORIA EILLIAH
Page 21
EIIIIAN
DEAN:
KIZLJAN
DEAN:
TTTIIAN
DEAN:
KILLIAH
DEAN:
Kvrfrgg
DEAN:
KIIIJAN
DEAN:
MACH N:
DEAN:
MACHEN:
KILLIAH
DEAN:
MACHEN:
KILLIAH
DEAN:
KILLIRH:
DEAF:
KILLIAK
D
l-
Why don't you tell me what you're thinkin' that I canhelp?
Well, that's not the way it works.
(Interrupting inaudibly]
We don't bring people in here so that we can tellthem everything that we know.
Yeah; I'm sure that was a inane remark. I withdrawit.
Okay; the converse is true. Tell me what you knowabout the planned robbery or ED DAVIES.
Rothinf. I am about to lose this eye contact contestalso. {Inaudible}
How long have you and RICK been goin' together?
Beg your pardon?
How long have you and RICK been goin' together?
Five and a half months, approximately. I've forgottenthe exact date.
'Key.
How would you describe your relationship with TIRGIL?
I beg your pardon?
How would you describe your relationship with VIRGIL?
It's a good friendship.
'KBy.
Anything else?
NO.
Sow long have you known VIRGIL?
Well, I've actually known him foran...see, I met himin the {inaudib1e]. I have to guess. I d say about|[L1au<1s.o1e} _
023443And you met him through...
I first met him when MARGE and I went into the shop,:hat's when I was first introduced to him. But, oddlyas ;t turns out, he and RICK had been the best of-` i "_'
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GLORIA IILLIAN
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DEAN:
KIIIJAN
DEAN:
KILLIAN
DEAN :
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KILLIAH
DEAN:
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DEAN:
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the shop a couple times and I met him again so tospeak.
Okay; how does it come to pass that you're stayingat his place?
Well, a couple things. Like I said, for one...for onething he's not in the best of health. Ah...be'slonely. He likes company.
Uh-HR.
I had to move after being robbed and burned like that.I mean I was scared to death to go anywhere or doanything and ah...just more or less the three of ussuggested it.
The three of you?
Uh-huh; yeah.
Being you and VIRGIL and who?
RICK.
RICK?
Uh-huh. I see him the nights when RICK isn't ah...babysitting the shop, then we both stay out there.Usually I just stay with RICK. {Inauc1ible} VEGII.and the company and, you know, he gets the housecleaned and meals cooked. I keep him on a diet...keepyou know, keep him company a little bit. And that's_about it.
And so RISK lives at VIRGIL's also?
No; he lives at the shop.
Okay.
See, they've been broken into several times and it hassomething to do with the fact that they can't put inthe proper 1f._1_nd of burglar alarm. But ah...he canftget insurance on his tools and on anything that belongsto hip. Only insurance on ah...what's in the buildingann the cars there.
Qnly on what?
On the building itself and like the cars that are inthere at night.4
on, ceay. 02344=A
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GLORIA KILLIAN
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KILLIAK
DEéN:
KILLIAN
DEAN:
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DEAN:
hILlIAN
MACEEN:
KILLIAN
DEAN:
KILLIAK!
"1 DEAN:
EILLZER:
has to stay there 'cause they've been robbed. So,sometimes his dad goes down and stays...and then hecomes and we all stay out at VI3GI1's. And if hestays at the shop, I just stay with him.
So when you stay at VIRGIL's and RICK is staying atVIBGIL's, those times also.
Not always; usually.
Usually?
Uh-huh- I stay home a coupla nights a coupla weeksago 'cause I was sick hut that'a about it. UsuallyI stay with him.
Tell me about any conversations that you specificallyrecall having with VIRGIL.
About anything?
Uh-huh; when you guys are at home, what do you talkabout?
Books, which happens to be my end of it; cleaning thehouse which is never right. Ah...musio, records, yard-work. Ah...we don't talk a whole bunch. Ah...he talkse lot about his ah...his ex-girlfriend and about hisdivorce and about his kids, things like that. Ah...his gun collection, fishing, eating, the cat.
Eating the cat?-
and `
No; eating ah..£the cat. My cat is ouite a showman;showperson, I'm sorry. She's been very attached to himNothing really that hesvy...ah...we occasionally talkabout the NRA which leads to long silences on both ourparts.
Why is that?
Because we're violent...I'm violently against the HRA.Politically...well, we have some common grounds. Wetalk about religion once. 3ut...we don't have deep,philosophical discussions. Wefvc talked about ah...land quite a bit. Ee has ah...in some areas, more
knowledge of ah...law regarding land than I do. Iremember specifically he wrote a...he sold a house ona contract of sale that I sat down and read and I wasjust amazed. I oon't think I coulo've done it thatwell.
what would you say VI3GII's area of expertise west
Els area of ex:-ertise? Contractor.
vw
I'
GLORIA KILLIAH
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As a contractor?
He's a contractor; yes.
And what about iiis com business and all of that?Kind of a sideline or what?
YEAH; it's just like a bar he used to have. Seems likehe always has something. Some housas...but lL-:.e Isaid, as far as his area of expertise it's buildingand czontracting, 'cause that cabin he built supposedlycouldn't be built or something. Mind if I SMGXE?
Ro; go ahead.
Well, let's get down to some specifics then okay?Uh-huh.
We're not talkin' about somethin' in terms of...if youtake relative importance where there's theft, orburglary or robbery...we're talkin' about murder. OkayUh-huh.
What wefre talkin' about right now is you are aprincipal in a murder. You're a principal in theplanning of a robbery that turned sour and people werekilled- One person was killed and one very seriouslywounded. That puts you on the spot. You know enoughlaw that if you sit down and plan somethin' and someother people go out and do it and somethin' goes _haywire, where do you stand? '
It's felony murder.
You get it and that's where you're at. 'Kay? Did youparticipate in planning the robbery of the DAVIEShouse?'
No I did not.
Did you participate in the burglary of the DAVIEShouse?
No, I did not.
In the planning?
No I did not.
Do you know GARY MAESE?
Holdoin. 023446_
_ ._
._
no you gnc# HQAIH HAESE?
1
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GLORIA KILLIAN
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MACEEN:
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KILLIAN
MACEEH:
KILLIAH
HACKER:
KILLIAN
MACEEH:
KILLIAN
MAGHEN:
KILLIAH
MACHEN:
KILLIAF
MHCEEN:
KILLIAN
KA Cl-'__rT`~I :
Ho I do not.
Do you know anybody that drives a green Riviera?
A green Riviera?
Yes.
I donft think so. I don't know.
Do you know anybody that drives a green car?
A green car? Yeah, RICK.
what kinda green car does he drive?
It's a Toyota.
'Kayg not a big car. You know what a Riviera lookslike; the older Rivierns, tudors?
I'm not sure. Could you...I'm not real good on cars.Is it a big car?a
Yeah, it's/relatively big car. Do you know STEVE DISANTOS?
Ho.
Do you know just A "STEVE"?
Not that I can recall.
Do you ever have any...
I've got a vague idea that I muet know so ebody namedSTE¥E...it's a common name, but Z can't think of any-one.
Ead you ever talked with anybody on several occasionsabout ripping somebody off for their coins, gold andsilver?
Nc.
Okay. Have you recently ever received any kind ofcash money, or gold, silver, jewelry or anything likethis, in the last two weeks?
Ho.
'Kay; are you pissed off because you ripped off?
I U85 given this as a present,
023447"'-7.::i-._ ~.,----
GLORIA KIIIIAN
Pége 26
KILLIAN
MACEZH:
IILLIAN
MACHEN:
EIILIAR
MACEEK:
KILLIAH
MACEEH:
KILLIAN
MACEEN:
KILLIAN
MACEEN:
KIILJAN
M$CHEN:
KIIZJHN
MACEEN:
KTT-vQN
MACHEH:
KILLIAN:
MHCHZNZ
HIIIJAN
MECEEN:
-p_--,-.,`.
: what d'ya mean am I pissed off 'cause I got ripoed of °
You didn't get your share of the loot.
: Because my house was ripped off?
Over the DAVIES' thing.
; I cannot he pissed off about it because I don't knowanything about it.
Do you know an tning about the theft of some telephonetrucks?
Telephone trucks?
Yeah; pickup trucks.
Ko.
Did RICK participate in this DAVIES' thing?-
No. He did not; neither did I.
Did he have anything to do with it whatsoever?: I don't know. I didn't have anything to do with it,how could he?
Do you know...
: How could he have had anything to do with it?To your know1edge...any knowledge...do you have anyknowledge or feelings cr anything that RICK may havebeen involved with lt?
Hell no
Isn': it important for you to think of one thing ons,"Yes.
You are in trouble.
Apparently.
And the only person thac1s going to help you in youYou understand that? I mean the person that..reason that you're surviving today is because O1 :ouRight? I mean you take :are of yourself and the 'you hnow...:here isn't some fairy godmother the alesafter you. You know what I mean?
'-.»' 5-\'
I4....I_-=_» :_ ea.. .
l
023443
GLORIA KILLIAN
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KILLIAR
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HACKER:
KILLIAN
MACHEN:
IILLIHN
DEAN:
KILLIAH
Alright; and`let's say that you all were involved inplanning of this thing and it went sour and some peoplegot double-crossed. You know, it's time that maybeyou scramble to take care of yourself. Think of that.
Uh-huh.
I'm gonna tell you somethin' right now that wefre goingto do.
Uh-huh.
Do you have any problems of us ta@1' a picture of you?
NO.
The way you are right now?
Ho.
Okay, and showin' that picture to a few people?
Ho.
'Kay; 'cause you were seen.
You let me co b my hair?
Oh, sure.
Well?
Need not work(?} :
Thanks! I was seen where?
Well, the lady that survivedthe phone before this thing.show up elsewhere. Keep one
you alone, you know what I meand burn and rot and when we:here dumpin' all over you a
saW_ you came in and useI dare say youfre gonna
thing in mind; you, andan? You can sit hereget everybody else inready .so it's time youtake care of yourself. I mean dumpin'...a big shovelful.
Sleepy...I was up late.
VIEGIL hafta get in :ouch with a doctor or anything,or Just...mildly.
I'm not even sure what it isthe satisfactory explanation
and he's never given me
of it. It'5 ah...but ita strange tH<1g because you :en tell by lookin' at hir
Oro023449
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DEAR:
KILLIAN
DEAN:
KTTTIBH
DEAN:
IILLIAR
DEAN:
KILLIAN.
DEAR:
KILIIAN
DEAN:
MACHEN:
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It's almost like he goes into shock. Ee turns white,you know?
Like he's anemia? That kinda white?
Ho, like shook. You know how people get when they gointo shook?
Uh-huh.
Something like that. Is he going to get a camera?
I believe so.
At least comb my hair.
Sure.
Death warmed over m self. Oh, shit.
Like another cup?
Are we going to be here awhile longer?I don't know. would you like another cup?
Yeah; I think I would like to go to the bathroom.
Ukay.
But I'll wait till he comes back with his camera.
Well, if you want we can go out to the bathroom nowand ah...
Together?
Well, I'm not gonna go in with ya; nc.
I just thought I'd ask, you know.
Certainly escort you to it so that you can find it.
I might as well wait for him. Hefll think I ren offor something._
Oh, hefs not gonna think you ran off.
Ch; tha;'s right. I'm with you, right?
That's right.
Go ehead...Stand up here so he can get...
023450Stand up against the wall?
3729
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CFFICER
MRCEHN:
Yeah; Just...we use...this wall is fine. That's agood one.
Oh, goodie...one of your better shots, huh?
Huh?
Should I smile or not?
Whatever you wanta do. We*ll take one more to makesure we get it. The next one isn't quite so bad.
Thanks; I needed that. You promise to burn these afterit's over?
Uh-huh. ThAt's no problem.
Terrible.
Okay, now you wants go hit the heed?
You're gonna hafta lead me- I think I went blind fora minute.
Is she coppin' ont?
Hope. She B1n't Coppin' to Shit.
End of Side 2, tape l
MACHIH:
KILLIAN:
MACHEN:
KILLIAN
MACHEN:
KILLIAH:
MACHEH:
HILLIAN:
HAGHEN:
KI1LlAH:
Never seen either one of 'em before? Where have you`
seen this guy before?
Never seen him. Ko.
This guy?
Never seen him.
Never seen either one of 'em before?
No.
You sure?
Sure dcn't think so.
When they tell us theylve seen you, what d'ya...whatare you gonna say?
Eever seen 'eng they don't look like anybody I'd wantssee.
023451
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That's not what I said.
I heard what you said.
'3:ey're gonna tell us you...
Ifve never seen 'em.
I'm gonna tell you right now, this guy right here...whoops, I put him in the other stack...I'm gonna tellyou right now that this guy right here is gonna tellus about several meetings with you. You never seenhim? `
Ho, I don't think so.
What d'ya mean "you don't think so"? Have you orhaven't you?
It doesn't look like anybody I've ever seen.
Alright; so that means you would never have had a
meeting with him.
Ho. Ifm sure I'd know if I met him or talked to him.
Kinda puts you in a bind then doesn't it, when he saysthat?
Maybe it puts hum in a bind.
No. It puts you in a bind 'cause we have somebody tocorroborate what he says. That makes two. Talking tothem independently they tell us about dates.
What kinda dates?
That they talked to you.
Go out with them?
No. Hot dates where you're out there dancing, havinga good time. Planning, meeting. Eavin' a meet, in aear, and he tells us about the car you're in and theytell us where it was at, the whole hivaree(sio}, so..we're not...I say we're not...
[Inaudihle}
Hey! We're givin' you an opportunity-..ckay, we'regivin' you an opportunity right now to scramble foryour own Eulcie. Alright; the opportunity is drawing toa close and then you just take your chances.
Th-huh.;-;-@3452
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GLGRIA KILLIAN
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Because I'll guaranty you one thing; once we hit thecourtroom, there ain't no wheelinf and dealin'.Alright? This is not over in the misdemeanor section.This is handled by a group of five attorneys and theydon't mess around. There is not gonna be no deals andwe're not playin' games with you. Okay?
I understand. You've made it perfectly clear.
You've got your chances now and thatfs it. After that,ain't no chances *cause we don't need chances with thiscase. That's why we went out and talked to you.That's why we didnft get an arrest warrant. We didn'tneed it. You know what I mean?
Uh-huh; exe ctly _
Okay; so, wna...l1ke I say...we, you know, wefre verywilling to talk to you and everything else end we'renot gettin' all worked up 'cause we don't need to, butyou've got to take care of your own tail because noone else's going to. Let me ask you something.you used to live, where you got oroken Lnto?
Uh-'hllrl o
what was that address?
Ah...24OT V Street, number (inaudiblej.
Where
And your car was busted up at the same spot?
Once there and once where it was broken down off 5C1E¢.`what was the name of the stupid street? It's offStockton Blvd.
You made police reports on this?
Yeah; the neighbors called.
I mean is there a police report on this. I mean didyou actually...are you a victim?
Yeah.
You know, and filled out...had ah...e po cemen fillout a report and all that stuff.
Uh-huh.
023453Okay.
I never followed up on it ..the burglary. There wasn'tany tom: in it.
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GLORIA KILLIAN
Page 32
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MACHEH:
KILLIAN
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HILLIAH
: Oh, yeah; in fact, I wasn't even home. I walked inafter all the shout1n' was all over.
Now, these BABES you have; it's not the case that youdo 't...that...that they don't have a girlfriend ora wife. It's a case that you doo't know.
I haven't any idea.
Okay. what kinda car do you drive?
'
What kinda car do I drive? I don't have one right nowI do. Ah...I was usirx' V.L.'=lGE's Chrysler and thetransmission blew down at the shop.
You drive any other car?
Yeah, I drive the Frog sometimes.
What kinda car is that?
'I.'hat'5 the Toyota, the truck.
The Toyota or the truck?
It is a Toyota truck.
MACHEN:
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MACHIN: The what?
KILLIAN The Frog
MACHEH:
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MAGHER:
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MAQEN: mg may
KILLEAN: Called the Frog.
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: If you ever saw it, you'd know why.
Anybody ever drive you around?
: Yeah, occasionally I get picked up and dropped off.
Who does that usually?
: Well, like SHIRLEY and I wanted to go shoppingyesterday.
'1ay.
: She screwed up by about three hours.0'J
Ghynh? U~34
Uh-huh.
54
372
GLORIA KILLIAN
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How come?
I don't know. She misunderstood what I said.
Must have with a three hour gap.
You think so?
Hhat'd you tell her?
Well, she was just goin' to go...she was gonna comedown and pick me up before...after she dropped BRIANoff, at school. She said that...
Came down and pick you up where?
Huh? Downtown.
Oh, I see; okay.
She said that what she meant was that she was going tocome down and pick me up after she picked him up fromschool.
Hb.
Whdeh ds about three hours later.
Eeve you talked with SHIRLEY since?
Yeah, I talked to her on the phone this morning.And she told you that we talked to her.
Uh-huh.
How come she went to VZRGIL's house then?
I donft know; 'cause she...well...we call hersquirrelly SHIRLEY.
Is that because she's a speeder?
She's a what?
Is that because she uses speed?
Speed? Ko. She just...H
She does.
She=s squirrelly.
Teak; well, puzpin' that ers; 1: he: ern ioesn': :e;;.
_
._
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GLORIA KILLIAN
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KILLIAK
MAIIEIZT:
IILIIAN
HACKER:
KILLIAN
MACEEK:
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MACEBN:
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MECHIN:
KILLlAR
MACHEH:
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MACEEH:
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I don't believe that.
Ivstnm.
It is?
And you know it's 111115.
No I do not know it*s true.
Bard to believe. Anyway, let's go on. So, SHI3LE1'lldrive you around a little bit or you use the Toyota
So, if we go somewhere.
What kinda oar does SHIRLEY have?
Ah...she.-.ahe drives a Cadillac.
Well, that's not her car.
Ho.
Do you know the owners of that car?
Uh-huh.
Who are they?
NEVA (1naudible} _
You know Her?
Yes.
How well do you kn OW NEVR?
I've known her for about a year.
She's a speeder too; you know?
No. I don't believe iz.
If you've known her for a year, the cops are over .ber°a lot.
I know about what went down a ooupla months ago, ;eah
Em.
~ ~-
~ 023455last was not...cnat was plenteo. .
well, if you gonnaA C1HC'S On2_I N$S :urious about that. when kinda5 are you ;o1n' ;ntc
...what kinda lie...oh. that's wra
?
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GLORIA KILLIAN
Page 35
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MACHEN:
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KILLIAN
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HACKER:
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Property.
Property?
Uh-huh.
Where'd you graduate from?
What?
Where'd you graduate from?
McGeorge.
McGeorge; and when did you do that?
I didn't graduate. 1bere's some disagreement about..they want me to repeat a class which'll cost meanother
One class?
So...yeah; uh-huh, 'cause it's a year class. So...I'm just gonna go ahead and take the bar. See, underCalifornia Bar Rules you don't even have to go to lawschool.
U11-hllfl.
You can just go ahead and take it.
So, you just had the one class; other than that, yougot everything fulfilled.
Yeah. Uh-huh; I should have a little bit more 'causeI started in the middle.
Okay.
I was a special student.
when did you...where were you going to McGeorge?When?
Yeah.~
I I
V ,_ _ " d£3457_ou mean when ala I start;
Yeah. I mean you been goin' there for quite awhile IJ- 'LaEkC 1|..-.
Yeah. Yeah, 'cause they made me start 1: the middle othe year, 'cause I was a special student. So it wasStrung CQE for 3 long ;4w5_
me,'3r =-»
GLGHIA KILLIAH
Page 36
MACHEH:
KILIIAN
MACHEN:
KILLIAN
MACEEH:
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MACHEH:
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MACHEN:
EILLIAN
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MACHEH:
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MACHEK:
KILIIAN:
MACHEN:
KILLIAR
MACHEN:
KILLIAN
MACHEN:
When was the last time you attended over there?
Just a year.
Huh?
A year.
A year ago?
Uh-huh.
In 1980 you was...you finished up?
Uh-huh-
Have you taken the bar before?
Ro. I couldn't afford it.
What does it cost?
To take the Bar? Okay, well, your...your first fee isand then you have to take the Bar review course
which is about ,100.,100.?ou'vegotthefeefor ?ou've got the fee forprofessional responsibility; thAt's another $20000 plusah...you canlt work before you take the review course.So, it's somewhere in a eoupla grand. Expensive.'Iben ii you fhmlg it, you get to pay them all overagain.
Must be e nice racket.
That thought's crossed my mind; yeah.
Okay. You know what we've talked to you about.
Uh-huh.
And right now you know that we know. we recover...
I know what you told me.
We've recovered a lotta evidence.
Uh-huh.
And you're gonna be booked. 'BIa;,f?
How?
Right now, and therc's gonna be no ball, out you'regonna oe booked for murder- Right? Ah...I'm gonnago get some forms and Z'll oe :ack to take :ere ofthe: and then we'1l oe cn our way to the jail ani has
3731
GLORIA KILLIBN
Page 3?
KILLEAN:
MACHEN:
DEAN:
MACHEN:
DEAN:
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DEAN:
KILLIAH
MAGHER:
DEAN:
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MACEEH:
anybody looked in your purse?
You did d1dn't you?
Did you guys already...you guys already checked...
I just checked it for weapons.
We donft want, you know, any dynamite or machine gunsin there. You'd be surprised what comes in here.Like I said, we're serious and 'cause we're notJackin' you around and as you're well aware, we havenot been scam in' you with all we've been tellin' you.And askin' you...you sa1d..."you ask me specificquestions, I'll give you an answer". Well, you askeda specific question, you gave a specific answer. Youwant us to believe that all the evidence doesn'tindicate and we're gonna take you to court with it.You got, you know, now you're gonna take your chances.'Kay; we offered you an opportunity. How it's timefor you to take your chances which aren't good. I'lltell you that right now.
GLORIA, is your contention right now that everythingthat you're tellin' ua here is the truth?
Yeah.
&r none. Youfre tellin' us the truth.
Uh-huh._
'Kayg you've not lied to us about anything at all?Okay.
You'd be willing to take a polygraph examination toprove that what you've talked about right here, today,in the last hour or so, has been the truth?
1
If you're gonna book me I wants tale to my lawyer.
Well, that's not that question we asked you. Youdon't wants take the polygraph. Is that what yca'resayin'? -
Z'm sayin' if I'm bein' arrested...
No. we assed you to give us a specific answer. Youoon't wanta take the polygraph...
I Know! But I doh't wenta answer any more questionsif I'm being arrested. That's what I'z sayin'5 period.
.%lI'Qh1S.
GLSRIA KILLIAH
Page 38
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HACEEN:
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DEAN:
HACKER:
KILLEAN
MACEEN:
KIllJ&N
DEAN:
KILLIAN:
And you said I was being arrested
Well, you're going to he arrested here and now.
_ I don't suppose there's anyway to get cigarettes, then,is there?
No, ma'am.
No.
Huh?
No.
Shit- Wouldn't you know.
Perfect timing?
Yep.
End of Side 1, tape 2
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