Its all set for printing out in 1 1x17 for those of you who are interested l ike m yself
Does anyone have the Rocker AR-7 plans from Sardaukar Press I have been looking for them for a while Also if anyone isinterested in sell ing the original Sardaukar Press Rocker AR-7 plans or knows where I can purchased them let m e know
The Explosives and Weapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification gt Brocock revolver conversion to live firing
View Full Version Brocock revolver conversion to live firing
April 5th 2006 1237 PMtomu
It is easily possible to fire 22 long rifle cartridges with a Brocock revolver of this caliber I know of at least three calibres 177 (45 mm) 22 (55 mm) and 25 (635 mm sometimes designated as 65 mm) inwhich Brocock revolvers are available obviously its only possible with the 22 (55 mm) to fire real 22 lr cartridges with the help of a special adapter cartridge
This adapter consists of a round steel body which is turned to the outer shape and dimensions of the Brocock air cartridge It is much easier to use a thickwalled tube with a 5 mm or 55 mm bore and turn it to the properoutside dimensions and after that drill and ream the inside holes If a metal lathe is not available a tube can be dressed to the proper shape if chucked in a electrical drill and by using a file (lots of skill is required by that way andit s lots of work)
The adapter is drilled and reamed all way through the middle with a hole of the size of the 22 lr cartridge if a chamber reamer (Brownells) is availble great if not a suitable drill and a normal reamer will sufficeThe second larger hole is drilled and reamed only partly through this hole holds the hammer
The hammer is a piece of small round steel or brass stock with a small firing pin which is fixed off-center to hit the 22 lr cartridge rim There two ways to make the hammer First way would be to drill a small hole off-centerin the hammer face and solderepoxy a short piece of 1 15 mm diameter piano wire in it it should protrude not more than 15 mm and the striker face should be slightly rounded The next ways is to cut a slot at the side of thehammer and solderepoxy in a flat piece of spring steel see diagrams
Dimensions of the 22 long rifle cartridge and chamber might come in handy for making the adapter The first number is the maximum dimension of the cartridge the second number in brackets is the minimumdimension of the chamber all dimensions are in millimeters (mm)
Lenght of the shell body (L3) 1557 (1633) Thickness of cartridge rim (R) 109 (109)Diameter of cartridge base (R1) 706 (732) Diameter of shell body at the base (P1) 574 (576) Diameter of the shell body at the cartridge throat (H2) 572 (572)
Different types of adapters can be made One as described above for firing a 22 lr cartridge thos adapter can also be used to load 22 blanks with separate bullets if access to 22 long rifle cartridges is regulatedby gun lawsAn adapter can be made which could use blank firing center firing cartridges and be loaded with a separate bullet also adapters can be made to load a air gun pellet ( BB or Diabolo) and use a center fireprimer ( shotgun shell primer or any other type of Boxer primer) for propulsion (see diagrams)
Proper tools especially drills and reamers can be bought at any tools shop which supplies metal working shops Drills and reamers are available at 01 mm steppings A very good source for gun smithing toolslike chamber reamers and properly sized drills is Brownells (wwwbrownellscom)
April 6th 2006 0943 AMTreverSlyFox
Interesting never heard of the Brocock Cartrage System so I did a little research on it From the looks of the system your Conversion looks quite possible Off the top of my head I can only think of two or threepossible problems with it
1 Chamber Pressure Your conversion cartrages had better be pretty strong of quality steel A Target 22LR 40gr bullet at 1080 fps developes 26500 psi chamber pressure and a Full Blown 22LR 38gr bulletSuperHyper Velocity up to 1750 fps has to be pushing at least 30000 psi chamber pressure Im not sure what the Maximum SAMMI listed chamber pressure for a 22LR is
2 Barrrel throat wear All pistol barrels have a Forcing Cone at the start of the barrel that A Starts the bullet into the rifeling and B Compensates for slightly with Out-of-Time cylinders (the cylinder chambersdont exactly line up with the bore) The barrel is made for a 22 cal soft lead pellet expelled at about 410 fps by a cold gas A regular 22LR cartrage bullet is expelled by a Very Hot gas at 3-4 times the velocitythat the pistols barrel isnt made to take and may well fail in a very short time It will depend on the steel used by the manufacture of the barrel
3 Recoil Shock The frame of the pistol could well be cheap Pot metal as a CO2 pellet at 410fps isnt going to produce much recoil A 22LR may produce a lot more recoil shock to the frame than its made towithstand Again it comes down to what steel the maufacturer used to make the frame from
I think from a safety stand point 1 is your biggest problem to overcome 2 is much less of a problem other than accuracy over a period of time though that time could be very short I think 3 falls somewhere inbetween 1 and 2 but may be avoided by just making sure you buy a good quality pistol in the first place to make the conversion with
April 6th 2006 1244 PMtomu
Brocock and other Air cartridge type guns are quite popular in Europe in the UK you will need a licence for them nowadays but in Germany they can be bought by anyone over 18 years old
There are two types of this guns first are real guns converted to Brocock Air Cartridge System and ones which are originaly produced for this Brocock system In Germany they are called LEP (Luft EnergiePatrone) There are also pistols available but this conversion only works with revolvers because the cartridge shells of the pistol ammo is to smallshort to take the 22 lr cartridge and the special strikerhammer Also the firing pin of Brocock Pistols is flatened so it will not fire a primer or a blank cartridge
The conversion is certainly not only feasible it works Did it tested it with several types of Brocock revolvers With this type of adapter it certainly does not make sense to go to a shooting competition but forself defence its ok
To 1 Im european so I use the metric system sorry A 22 lr cartridge develops a maximum pressure (CIP) of 1800 bar which translates to 180 Newton per square millimeter Even the softest steel has atensile strenght of about 330 - 380 Nmm2 and even the more interesting yield strenght for dynamic stresses is over 220 Nmm2 No pressure problem at all with 22 long rifle ammo So I would not advice to usehigh velocity ammo with short barrled revolvers it wouldnt make sense anyway
The steel adapter takes all the pressure and distributes it over its large outside area to the cylinder walls its just a few Newtons The adapter could even be fired without being in the cylinder from a pressure pointof view
to 2 The barrel liners used in Brocock revolvers are genuine 22 barrel liners made of steel and like in all revolvers (and in any other gun as well) the barrel has a forcing cone
to 3 What recoil Have you ever shot a 22 lr The recoil of a 22 lr is so weak even plastic can stand it Many commercial 22 lr guns also have a frame of what you call pot-metal I know of at least one 38Special revolver which also has a die cast zinc alloy frame and it doesnt cause it any problems
The high velocity hot powder gases can and will cause errossion of the frame around and above where the barrel is fixed to it but with a 22 lr its not a real problem
BTW I made the first prototype of the adapter out of brass because I had the brass round stock at hand and it worked
April 6th 2006 0331 PMbobo
One question about 22 caliber though For my pistol I have different ammo than for my rifle both are cheapass 22 The gundealer said it was NOT a good idea to use rifle ammo in pistol and vice versa becausethe barrel would not withstand it or something I assume this is what you mean to say about high velocity ammo
By the way this conversion has been known for some time by the police have the brockocks remained the same in the mean time
April 6th 2006 0505 PMJacks Complete
These pistols are a red herring in the UK After a few were found to have been converted they were all confiscated or put on Section 1 or 5 and are now treated the same as a real pistol You might as well getyourself a Glock 9mm or a Buckmark 22 as the 5 year minimum prison sentence is the same for having a Brocock air pistol or having an UZI -(
April 6th 2006 0822 PMtomu
To BoBo Automatic Pistols can be picky about the type of ammo you fire high velocity ammo shouldnt be fired out of them It will but more stress on the gun and the gun is likely to jam because of feedingproblems
Its not about the pressure the maximum pressure of a cartridge is regulated by SAAMI in the USA and by CIP in most other countries and a gun must be constructed so it will withstand the maximum pressureof the calibre it is made for
Its a question of bullet weight and velocity or to make it short its about energy A high velocity cartridge will stress the gun more than a normal cartridge will do because it develops a higher energy
To Jacks Complete Its really a shame what they are doing in the UK But its going to get thougher everywhere in Europe I agree totally with you if one can get his hands on a real gun be legal or not I wouldntbother with converting a Brocock But getting an illegal gun is not everybodies bussines one must be afraid not only of police and snitches but also of the illegal gun dealers itself
So it comes all down to availability and ease of availbility A Brocock is certainly easier to get than a real gun in most parts of Europe Brococks or LEPs (have a look at wwwegunde and do a search for LEP) asthey are called in Germany are readily available in Germany for anyone who is at least 18 years old Btw parcels send within Europe are no longer subject to customs controlls
And the real beauty lies in the fact that the gun needs not to be altered and the adapter itself is legal in most countries As far as I know it is easier to get a licence for a Brocock gun in the UK than it is for the realMcCoy at least one doesnt need to provide a reason for having a Brocock but Im not an expert on UK gun laws
April 12th 2006 0528 PMJacks Complete
Climbing K2 is easier than swimming the Atlantic but you couldnt call either one easy
Section 1 (Brocock grandfathering) is fairly straightforward just have the police come round for an interview send them counter-signed pictures money get a safe go to a gun club for 6 months fill out a bigform have your criminal and medical records checked and more
Section 5 (where non-grandfathered Brococks are) is a letter from the Secretary of State and allows ownership of real pistols machineguns rocket launchers etc Ive heard that there are 7 people with these forpistols in the entire country Even gun shops cant have them Oh and expanding bullets live there too along with AP and explosive and incendiary rounds
April 19th 2006 0602 PMbobo
LEP = Luftenergiepatrone
As far as I can see these are conversions from live guns to airguns Not that I am familiar with german law but doesnt the conversion to normal weapon include making it permanently useless for live ammo Areyou saying any LEP be remade into a live firearm as long as its 55 mm
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April 19th 2006 0851 PMtomu
You are right on both assumptions
BrocockLEP revolvers in 2255 mm calibre can be made to fire live 22 lr cartridges with the help of the above described adapter without making any modifications on the gun itself
July 26th 2006 0202 PMtomu
Because of numerous requests for the graphics I post a download link of the sketches
httprapidsharedefiles27105290brocock_adaptersjpghtml
July 26th 2006 0333 PMoxbeast
Its interesting to note that many of the LEPs posted for sale on wwwegunde are actually real firearms that have been converted to LEP
The little (originally 38 spec) Derringer is very nice I see its current owner payed 190 to convert it to LEP
The Titanium coated Walther is a crying shame Sad to see people had to do this to functional firearms
August 2nd 2006 1205 AMsibear
Sadly it is no longer possible to get a section 1 license for a Brocock (or any other air cartridge) pistolrifle in the UK anymore
Applications for existing owners had to be in by January of last year (or was it the year before) It is also ilegal to sell or transfer said weapons
As for getting them sent in from mainland Eurpope if you could find someone willing to do it all overseas parcel post is x-rayed and dog handled Almost impossible to get one in
That said there are something like 25000 unlicensed Brococks still in circulationThe adapter conversion works perfectly with brass and steel as a UK Govt firearms supplier informed me
August 3rd 2006 1057 AMJacks Complete
Its not sad they have a place You cant practise with a real gun in your home but with a Brocock adapter and barrel sleeve you can as it is just an air pistol It also has exactly the same trigger pull feel andlooks as your regular gun
sibear yes thats right To get a new one legally you need Section 5 Which is impossible to get So you can buy (and be trusted with) a 50BMG rifle but not a toy air pistol Great country
September 22nd 2006 0636 PMhemiboy
Thanks for the drawings I made an adapter from good quality steel and fired a few rounds from my ME Specialist Im a happy camper except about one in six shots where the bullet struck the target sidewaysWhats up with that Too sloppy tolerances on my adapter
September 23rd 2006 0741 PM5_seven
I found it was easier to purchase a blank shooter and switch out the barrel and cylinder for 22 cal steel I bought a replica of an old Olympic arms snubby for twenty bucks the cylinder was about thirty and I justbored out the barrel put in a liner and she fired fine
My reasons for using a starter pistol are seemingly obvious its meant to fire blanks which are simply cartridges without the bullets (though there may be differences in the powder used or the amount if Imwrong please correct me) so you know its meant to take that kind of stress
And since the only kind that you can effectively modify into a live fire weapon is a revolver its easier to find one real cheap The one I purchased I got at a hunting goods store if they ask any questions its so youcan train your dog for hunting I dont know about the availability across the pond though
September 24th 2006 0346 AMgrendel23
Even if a starter pistol used the same type and amount of powder in a blank (I doubt it) it would generate very little pressure due to the lack of confinementI wouldnt assume that such a device would safely fire a live round I would fire several rounds from cover remotely and check for damage before I would hand fire it
September 24th 2006 1111 AMtomu
snip except about one in six shots where the bullet struck the target sideways Whats up with that Too sloppy tolerances on my adapter
Congrtulation for making these adapters I experienced the same problem with my first prototype adapters the problem was that I drilled the hole through slightly angled because the drill went off maybe 01 mmor so Solution was I drilled the hole first in the round stock and then turned the outside contours between centers
September 24th 2006 0613 PM5_seven
Even if a starter pistol used the same type and amount of powder in a blank (I doubt it) it would generate very little pressure due to the lack of confinementI wouldnt assume that such a device would safely fire a live round I would fire several rounds from cover remotely and check for damage before I would hand fire it
I used a cylinder made for firing live ammunition and put a liner in the barrel (as Id written in my previous post) I have fired it Its not accurate but it works and its safe to shoot
September 25th 2006 0623 PMArisaka
Congrtulation for making these adapters I experienced the same problem with my first prototype adapters the problem was that I drilled the hole through slightly angled because the drill went off maybe 01 mmor so Solution was I drilled the hole first in the round stock and then turned the outside contours between centers
Hello Tomu
Are these adaptors for sale Great sollution if you live in Europe cool
September 27th 2006 0250 PMtomu
Arisaka
Unfortunately I cant sell these adapters under the valid gun laws in my country its not clear if one needs a licences to buy them And Im certainly not the one who will find out in judical trial
Interesting enough it is not illegal to make them by yourself at least where I live Who am I to ask for some sense in laws
If you cant make them yourself there are always small machineshops who will make them for you for a fee All they need is a scetch and the exact measurements Without the hammerpiece its a hardguess forthem what the adapters are for
September 28th 2006 0129 PMGunjack
An alternative for the 22LR cartridge might be the 22WMR that delivers about the same energy on target as a 9mm para The only trouble is the high chamber pressures
I know st37 steel (common) can hold the 22LR pressures but what about the 22WMR
The 22WMR the same in rim and diameter as the 22LR the only difference is in its length and of course its energy and pressure
October 3rd 2006 0603 AMtomu
The 22 WMR is simply to long dont forget you also need the hammerstriker piece
If pressure would be the only concern just use 42CrMo4 (in the US I think its 4130) or similar steel
October 10th 2006 0540 PMArisaka
Arisaka
Unfortunately I cant sell these adapters under the valid gun laws in my country its not clear if one needs a licences to buy them And Im certainly not the one who will find out in judical trial
Interesting enough it is not illegal to make them by yourself at least where I live Who am I to ask for some sense in laws
If you cant make them yourself there are always small machineshops who will make them for you for a fee All they need is a scetch and the exact measurements Without the hammerpiece its a hardguess forthem what the adapters are for
Im to the west of your location if you live in Germany and am very font at al the ersatzteilen cool Next month i will be at the Kassel messe and will watch some of these revolvers
October 12th 2006 0601 PMCobalt45
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I know st37 steel (common) can hold the 22LR pressures but what about the 22WMR
Keep the wall thickness gt25
February 17th 2007 0720 PMeback83
please can somebody post some pictures on the adapters the old links dont work =(thanks
March 1st 2007 0213 PMBoom-stick
I went down the route of using shot gun primers but found them very dirty I actually adapted the TACs internals by using the guts of the TAC to hold the primer instead of making a whole new sleeve Worked wellbut very slow on the re-load This of course only works on the Brococks with sprung firing pins my Fox rifle works on a canterlever system and therefore cant deliver the force required to fire the primer
March 30th 2007 1254 AMonemanriot
He who didnt have access to a lathe or other facilities could always adapt an existing brocock cartridge to fire 8mm centerfire blanks This could be done via drilling out the inside so that the blank is a TIGHT fit andfiling down the end plug leaving only the thread
This is possible but difficult using a and drill as there is only JUST room for the blank The central rod from the cartridge can be suitably butchered to form a striker
There is a lucky individual who has access to a supply of obsolete 32 blanks with the rear plug removed these are a near perfect fit inside the cartridge
PLEASE NOTE that any such bodging of the brass cartridges while it may work and be very entertaining is not safe tomus method is safe however especially if used in one of the wheirauch guns
December 28th 2007 0631 PMOsis
Time to wake this thread up
I bought a brand new Brocock ME38 magnum 22 for a couple of weeks and this is what Ive made during christmas This cartridge is easily loaded with a 22lr shot I havent seen any signs of high pressure etc Itreally works perfect Here are som pics of what Im talking about
All parts neededhttpimg172imagevenuecomimgphpimage=80039_IMG_0056_122_1077loJPG
Simply put things togetherhttpimg106imagevenuecomimgphpimage=80365_IMG_0057_122_1163loJPG
And its ready for firinghttpimg211imagevenuecomimgphpimage=80368_IMG_0058_122_259loJPGhttpimg150imagevenuecomimgphpimage=80371_IMG_0059_122_1067loJPG
The firing pin and the empty 22lr cartridgehttpimg205imagevenuecomimgphpimage=80377_IMG_0060_122_111loJPG
I also made some drawings with correct measures for you guys to work with (PDF-file ~6Mb)httpwwwmegauploadcomd=TI1LMU5S
And of course ONLY USE IN 22 GUNS
December 30th 2007 0617 AMtomu
My congratulations Osis this is an ingeniously simple idea much easier to make than mine with much less tools
Great
February 19th 2008 0105 PMBoom-stick
Osis
Did you make them up yourself or did you get a machine shop to do it for youeither way it looks great
Much better and safer than my shotgun primer method
February 19th 2008 1051 PMLatindude_002
Hello new guy here I also have a brocock revolver that Im looking to add kick to (Im in the USA no ban here)
Theres a company in the USA that makes cartridges powered by primers for use in centrefire guns They also supply a 177 barrel to install in said guns I am in the process of having some cartridges custommade for a brocock using the 209 primer I will report how well they work although some people who have used 209 primers report 10ftlb of energy a 50 increase from air
Osis you made a brilliant invention however a 22 short bullet is 0223 as compared to regular airgun pellets which are 220 Does the wider bullet not cause damage to the barrel
February 26th 2008 1213 PMBoom-stick
a 22 short bullet is 0223 as compared to regular airgun pellets which are 220 Does the wider bullet not cause damage to the barrel
Im not osis or connected with himher but the 22 slugs from rimfire rounds are a pretty soft lead compound barrel damage is minimal
May 16th 2008 0807 AMChris Werb
Section 1 (Brocock grandfathering) is fairly straightforward just have the police come round for an interview send them counter-signed pictures money get a safe go to a gun club for 6 months fill out a bigform have your criminal and medical records checked and more
Section 5 (where non-grandfathered Brococks are) is a letter from the Secretary of State and allows ownership of real pistols machineguns rocket launchers etc Ive heard that there are 7 people with these forpistols in the entire country Even gun shops cant have them Oh and expanding bullets live there too along with AP and explosive and incendiary rounds
Sorry but you cant grandfather Brococks - theyre all S5 - its just that owners that had them were allowed to declare them by the date Part 5 of the Antisocial Behaviour Act (2003) came into effect and havethem put on an FAC (the police could not refuse an FAC for this purpose for lack of good reason) (Other S5 weapons also go on FAC if youre not an RFD - the dfference is the Chief of Police cannot refuse you anFAC if the Home Secretary has granted you the S5 authorisation) If you discovered you had a self contained air cartridge system gun (even a lever action rifle or a Saxby amp Palmer No4) you would have to hand itin
Heres the section of the Antisocial Behaviour Act (2003) under which sales and transfers of Brococks were banned
httpwwwopsigovukactsacts2003ukpga_20030038_en_6pt5-l1g39
Osis you made a brilliant invention however a 22 short bullet is 0223 as compared to regular airgun pellets which are 220 Does the wider bullet not cause damage to the barrel
I thought 22SLLR bullets were 221 - hence their inaccuracy in blowback adapters like the M261 for AR15M16 type rifles chambered for 224 bullets Strangely enough early 22 Hornets took true 223 bullets(which are still available) although latercurrent ones are 224
May 21st 2008 0653 PMPadro
I found these pictures of a real conversion set for a 38 revolver
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification gt Anyone have experience in de-limiting Canadian hi-cap magazines
View Full Version Anyone have experience in de-limiting Canadian hi-cap magazines
June 17th 2006 1259 AMGollum
I am looking at buying a 45 in hi capacity but due to the 10 round restriction for pistol mags its a pain in the ass It should be able to hold 12 or 13 rounds with the highcapacity mags
Id also like to be able to modify some magazines for the vz 58 that Im going to pick up soon the 5 round magazine really sucks It should be a 30 round magazine
Anyone know how to remove the limiter in the mags without destroying the magazine and allowing it to be used to full capacity
June 18th 2006 0305 AMtiac03
So wait you want to go from a 10 round mag to a 12-13 round one I dont understand why you would risk getting caught with an illegal mag for 2-3 rounds instead of justbuying more 10 round ones
As for the other mags there should be a pin welded in the mags along a corner just open up the mag find the pin and find a way to pry it grind it off
Anyways if you opened up the mags you would have seen what I am talking about Its not hard to spot just a piece of metal that stops the mag from going further down thanthe 5 round mark (atleast it should be thats how they block the SKS 10 round mags)
Obviously modifying a mag can get you thrown into jail so before you do that ask yourself if it would just be better to buy more 5 round ones but since you probably donthave the right kind of licene for that rifle anyways I guess you arnt worried about mag restriction So have fun
June 18th 2006 0741 PMGollum
Actually the rifle can be bought with your basic firearms license its just a normal semi-auto rifle However its not like anyone is going to know about the mods Im doing to itStrictly in-the-bush shooting gun
+ An extra 3 rounds in a 45 caliber gun are perfectly welcome with me
Are you sure its as simple as you decribe I heard somewhere that they not only put a pin through the mags but cut some of the spring in the mag so it wont handle thatmany rounds Not sure about that though
June 29th 2006 0313 PMNico
In the US while the ban was in place mag bodies often had indented ridges preventing the follower from going any lower to accept more roundsSome mags just had tall followers that would hit bottom sooner than full-caps these could be replaced with normal followers
June 29th 2006 0922 PMDank$taVegas
I would say your better off to get 3 extra clips as any one can switch out a clip and be slinging lead down range in a matter of seconds And this way you are perfectly legalWhat is 3 extra bullets going to do really when you could have another clip slapped in in a matter of seconds
High capacity clips sold in Canada vary in design the one that I am familiar with is a permanent pinned clip and have had a block of steel riveted or tack welded into the insideof the magazine This can be filed out or grind drill dremel or use a hack saw blade to remove this pesky block of steal This is the type of clip that I am familiar with butthere are a number of ways of limiting the amount of ammo a clip can hold depending on the company you obtain your clip from When modifying a clip I do believe you willhave to modify the spring as well So a new spring will have to be fabricated or ordered from a manufacture
Another option at getting a high capacity clip with out being limited is if you know someone who works in a Army Surplus store they usually have connections and can getwhat you want under the table They usually dont deal with people they dont know as it is risky to themMy friends dad has a 30 round banana clip for his 22 semi auto which he obtained through a Army Surplus Store in Canada and it is an awesome gopher shooting clip youcan shoot up dust trails behind a gopher as it running away
When your out in the field or in the bush the chance of getting caught with a un-restricted clip are slim to none Just dont give the porkers any reason to search your house
Do a search on Googleca and search Canada only for 45 High capacity clips Im sure you will come up with many manufactures and they will specify how the clip is made ontheir web site on if they dont and you really want to find out you could E-Mail them and ask how their clips are limited
June 30th 2006 1209 AMBig Mac
I could have sworn that they build some of the mags to where you basically will destroy it if you try to modify it Either that or if you have no exact idea what you are doingyou will destroy it
Personally throwing good money away for marginal magazine capacity isnt worth it If you need 13 rounds of 45 ACP youre probably in over your head I wouldntrecommend it not to mention liberal courts love to fry people for doing things like that as opposed to actual criminals Just saying are 3 rounds worth it
June 30th 2006 1124 PMDank$taVegas
Wow I must have been sleeping to have missed that
Actually the rifle can be bought with your basic firearms license
Wrong
These guns are Restricted in Canada but not banned Meaning any one with a RESTRICTED LICENCE who can legally own handguns and other restricted gun may purchaseone
So just having a basic fire arms license will not allow you to obtain this type of firearm or handgun for that matter Although getting a Restricted License isnt too hard at all IfI remember correctly its a weekend class or you can opt to take the test without the course (In class time) D
I took the weekend course some time backYou might want to talk to your dealer that you are planning on obtaining your Rifle amp Hand gun from and ask him about this asIm 999 sure that every where in Canada is the same and they are concidered Restricted Guns
The VZ-58S carbine that is imported in to Canada is not the military issue ones sold else where each one is made to abide by gun laws here meaning they are awatered down civilian legal version incorporating a purpose built semi-automatic ONLY receiver
This carbine is produced by the original manufacturer and is identical to its brother the original military issue VZ-58 in every detail with the sole exception being use of a specialsemi-auto receiver which cannot accept full-auto fire control components
So the one you are planning on buying is a VZ-58S Carbine unless you are buying an illegally imported version sold under the table or on the black market
The usual cost of one of these Civilian legal versions VZ-58S run from $600-$700 new Canadian dollars
July 1st 2006 1007 PMGollum
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Im not sure exactly what youre talking about- the VZ58s that have been imported into Canada can ALL be purchased with the basic unrestricted license The guns are NOTrestricted firearms Theyre semi automatic long guns and therefore fall under the non restricted category of firearms Call the firearms centre for yourself if you dont believethat Theyre open until 7pm eastern time every weekday They have a website too which can be found on google
Making modifications to the magazines or firing mechanisims is of course illegal but exactly how is anyone going to know about those changes
Also FWIW modifying guns to fire full auto is in my opinion useless Full auto is a big waste of ammunition you can fire nearly as fast with a semi auto just by tapping thetrigger numerous times And its much more accurate that way The purpose of having 30 round magazines is one of convenience and saved time
July 2nd 2006 1228 AMDank$taVegas
Web site link below
The military issue VZ-58 carbine is a definite departure from the norm in both historical terms and with regards to the semi-auto only version we have introduced to theCanadian market Originally developed in Czechoslovakia during the 1950s the Samopal VZ-58 was adopted by that country in 1958 This is no small accomplishment givenmost other Warsaw Pact countries were persuaded by the USSR to manufacture Kalashnikov AK-47 rifles rather than use their own designs That the light well-balancedVZ-58 carbine remains the front-line infantry rifle of the Czech Republic almost 50 years after it was adopted is further proof of its excellent ergonomics and reliability
Now thanks to Marstar Canada a civilian legal version incorporating a purpose built semi-automatic only receiver has been imported for the C anadian market Our VZ-58S carbine is produced by the original manufacturer and is identical to the original military issue VZ-58 in every detail with the sole exception being use of a special semi-autoreceiver which cannot accept full-auto fire control components
Each carbine incorporates new and arsenal refinished milspec components and is individually inspected test-fired and certified by the Czech Proof House prior to our importingthem As this rifle is not a Kalashnikov (AK-47) variant it is not prohibited The VZ-58 (VZ-58S) features the original military length 390mm chrome-lined barrel (restrictedmeaning anyone licensed to own handguns may purchase one) The following accessories are includedTaken fromhttpwwwmarstarcagf-VZ-58VZ-58Sshtm
Everyone that I go shooting with also tells me that these guns are considered Restricted Firearms as well One of the guys is the president of the local gun club who reallydose know his stuff Maybe something changed and they were just recently taken off the Restricted list Its possible confused
Ill search the net later tonight and see what I can dig up Ill also make a few call to some gun dealer and other places here in my province and see what I am told Im also inthe process of writing a E-Mail to the company Ill post Both E-mails when I have confirmation
Anyways the more I read about this gun the more Im starting to like it well see maybe Ill have to get myself a early B-day present ) Naw Im still paying of my deer gun Igot last year rolleyes
Cheers
July 2nd 2006 0354 AMDank$taVegas
Some things I have found please take note of the Bold amp Underlined Parts
Restricted firearms include
handguns that are not prohibitedsemi-automatic centre-fire rifles and shotguns with a barrel shorter than 470 mm (about 185 inches)rifles and shotguns that can be fired when their overall length has been reduced by folding telescoping or other means to less than 660 mm (about 26 inches)
httpwwwcfc-cafcgccafaqdefault_easp
features the original military length 390mm chrome-lined barrel (restricted meaning anyone licensed to own handguns may purchase one)
httpwwwmarstarcagf-VZ-58VZ-58Sshtm
So there it is this gun is concidered a Restricted Firearm in Canada Also some guns are even more restricted in the provincial level so this is just the basics for CanadaSomeProvinces are even more harsh
These Regulations came into force on December 1 1998 so if you were inquirig about this gun before this date maybe that is why you were told this firearm could bepurchesed with your FAC Licence which classed fire arms into 2 class As of December 1 1998 Fire Arms were devided into 3 classes (Non-Restricted Restricted amp Prohibited)
There are three classes of firearms non-restricted restricted and prohibitedNon-restricted firearms are ordinary rifles and shotguns other than those referred to belowRestricted firearms includehandguns that are not prohibitedsemi-automatic centre-fire rifles and shotguns with a barrel shorter than 470 mm (about 185 inches)rifles and shotguns that can be fired when their overall length has been reduced by folding telescoping or other means to less than 660 mm (about 26 inches) andfirearms restricted by Criminal Code RegulationsProhibited firearms includehandguns with a barrel length of 105 mm (about 414 inches) or less and handguns that discharge 25 or 32 calibre ammunition except for a few specific ones used inInternational Shooting Union competitionsrifles and shotguns that have been altered by sawing or other means so that their barrel length is less than 457 mm (about 18 inches) or their overall length is less than 660mm (about 26 inches)full automaticsconverted automatics namely full automatics that have been altered so that they fire only one projectile when the trigger is squeezed andfirearms prohibited by Criminal Code Regulations
On another note about how Hi Cap magazines are limited This should give you an idea of how the magazine in question is made and that way you can plan how you intend tomodify it After reading this and other related material some magazines will be almost imposible to modify with out destroying the Mag
A large-capacity magazine is not prohibited if it has been permanently altered so that it cannot hold more than the number of cartridges allowed by law Methods accepted bylaw here in Canada includeIn the case of a magazine with a steel or aluminum casing the insertion amp attachment of a plug sleeve rod pin flange or similar device made of aluminum or steel (as thecase may be)may be welded brazing or another similar method
In the case of a magazin with a casing made of a material other than steel or aluminum the attachment plug sleeve rod etc that is similar to that of the material of themagazine casing may be welded brazing or other similar method or by applying a permanent adhesive substance such as a cement or an epoxy or other glue
Hope this helps you out a bit
Have you concidered making your own magazine this might be an easier way to go about getting the extra 3 shots you desire
July 3rd 2006 0754 PMGollum
Sorry you are wrong I have a recording of a firearms officer and a police officer telling me that the gun is legal
July 3rd 2006 0835 PMJacks Complete
Ok stop arguing One of you is saying it is banned because it is a semi-auto rifle the other is saying it isnt because it is too short to be a rifle and hence is a handgun
As for the extra 3 rounds in the mag forget about it Thats the kind of thing that bites you in the ass for no reason I cant see a benefit there YMMV However the 5 up to 30round conversion thats probably worth doing Id leave it stashed in a baggie under a rock where you shoot though and would never take it home just in case Losing yourlicense for a trivial infraction would be a bitch
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July 4th 2006 1209 AMDank$taVegas
There is no arguing going on we are trying to figure out if this gun is Restricted or nothellip So far all the information I have found and posted says this gun is Classified as aRestricted fire arm I never said it was banned either you need a special license to own one The license is very easy to get as well The reason why this gun is Restricted isdue to the barrel length as that is what all the information I have gathered says
If however my information I gathered (From a government site and one of the biggest Importers of this gun into Canada and other reliable sources I have talked to) arewrong I would like to know So if you could post something that will say other Im all ears and willing to admit I was wrong and all the other sources I have gathered infofrom were wrong too then they should be contacted to make corrections on their sites since they are spreading miss-leading information to the publicIm sorry if it comes off like Im arguing Im just trying to find and post correct information in the forums As that is one thing that had drawn me here all the knowledgeablepeople and 999 of the information is correct (Unlike most other places on the internet)
July 4th 2006 0546 PMDank$taVegas
I have a recording of a firearms officer and a police officer telling me that the gun is legalIm sure you do this gun is legal in Canada there is no question about that It is just Restricted
I have gotten around to calling today The Canada Firearms Centre (CAFC) which is run from a branch of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police as Monday was a holiday andinquired about the Samopal VZ-58S and they confirmed that this gun in question is classified as a Restricted Gun due to the fact that the barrel is shorter than 470 mm Andin order to purchase this rifle in question you will need to have a Restricted LicenseAnyone would like to inquire about this for them self can Call 1 800 731-4000 or visit the Canada Firearms Centers web site at wwwcfc-cafcgcca The number is a toll freecallIll leave it at this since all my questions and doubts have been answered with that simple phone call
July 18th 2006 0354 PMcletus
An extended mag base will get you an extra 3 rounds of45 I am guessing that the pistol is a 1911 style
Simply slide your mag base off and install the extended one This works for the para ordance and norinco hi-cap mags Talk to any IPSC shooter in your club and find thenearest accesory dealer
These are legal to own in canada installing them is not
July 20th 2006 0300 PMtiac03
The beauty of the canadian system is that they have the 3 basic types of fire arms and the definition of each Then some guy looks at pictures of guns and classifies them dueto how scary they look (The chinese made a 22 that looks like a crappy knockoff of an m-16 and its listed as restricted here)
Any weapon that was originally full auto but converted to semi can fall into restricted or prohibited because they were originally full auto and I believe there is something inthere that says ak-47 and their varients
It wouldnt even surprise me if they listed it as a prohibited weapon because it looks dangerous
The 1928 thompson for example is prohibited even though it was built only as a semi automatic and just to tell you about those people incharge a thompson according tothem is too powerful to shoot in a shooting range (indoor pistol small rifle) even though you can fire any pistol you want Its like saying a sten is too powerfull to shootindoors
I dont know about now how they have changed it since harper has been in charge though so maybe it is different now
July 23rd 2006 0200 PMcharger
Im hoping this may help clarify the legality of the cz 58 in Canada As sold by Marstar it is a restricted firearm because of the short barrel However there is anotherCanadian supplier Wolverine Supplies that sells a non-restricted version called the CZ 858 -2 It has a barrel length of 19 inches making it legal to own with a regular licenseHope this helps
July 23rd 2006 0344 PMDank$taVegas
Thank you for the heads up on the Wolverine Supplies site you inadvertently pointed me in the right direction for a product I was searching for D I have been in contact withthe dealer and have ordered a catalog from them
I can confirm that this dealer Wolverine Supplies Imports both versions of this said gun the Restricted VZ-58S Restricted Version with the 390mm barrel and a NonRestricted Version CZ 585 with the 482 mm
This is a good example of why it is critical to provide proper details about anything talked about on the forums For when you are referring to the VZ-58S you are talking abouta Restricted gun and all the information I found pointed to this had you said you were planning on getting the CZ 585 the information would have pointed to a Non Restrictedgun As NBK2000 points out in his riddles all the time the changing of a letter number or anything can make a big difference on the topic
Ie The id riddle referred to in the Fake ID thread
Thank you for clearing this up charger and for providing the name of the dealer
This company (Wolverine Supplies) might be a good place for you gollum to ask and find out information about Hi-Cap magazines since on their web site they have a few forsale and after getting off the phone with the owner he seems like a really nice guy who went well out of his way to help answer all my question I had So Im sure he wouldbe more than happy to give you a run down of how Hi-Cap Magazines that he sell are limited Just dont tell him you plans
October 1st 2006 0936 AMMarmaloon
Heres the poop so to speak
Non-restricted version
httpwwwwolverinesuppliescomdefaultaspPg=8ampdo=3ampmcid=1ampscid=12amppid=43
Restricted version
httpwwwmarstarcarifleshtm
I hear they are quite nice I would consider one good for lugging around in the bush My first choice for a military serious gun would be a Garand however For an extra $100dollars or so more than the Wolverine Supply version thats the general asking price for a Garand My big bro has a Dane and a nice Canuck T-26 referring to the barrelwhich is 19 inches Also notice Marstar is selling the parts-made-in-Vietnam assembled-in-the-warehouse-district-in-Australia 4 knockoffs I would not buy one as they areapparently made by the Asian mafia As an aside you can get all the standard capacity 25-50 round magazines for the Ruger 1022 its just too bad such a magazine is notoffered for the 1022 Magnum if so I suspect that would be a more popular gun up here although the ammo price would put that in check too as we all know 22 Magnumammo is expensive
As for de-limiting() I would not touch that with a 10 foot pole If you need more rounds get a pouch made up with stripper clips with 5 rounds in each I think you may beable to get them from one or other of the above vendors The Cz is set up for stripper clips unless you want to put a scope and a half dozen rolleyes Picatinny rails on it
February 21st 2007 1108 PMNico
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For adding capacity to standard magazines the brand Arredondo is the best for quality and the round-countsize ratio (ie a G18 mag has tons of capacity but the dang thingsticks out a mile ) ) Brownells carries em
February 22nd 2007 0442 AMInfernoMDM
I played with the real thing over in Iraq some Air Force POG was trying to tell me how it was a AK-47 Although similar in appearance they defiantly arent From what I doremember though the magazines are damn near the same I would assume to save money these guys probably made the magazines with either a block and short spring or apin like others have said If so then it wont be any problem cutting out the blockpin
The only real issue will be getting springs Instead of fabrication you might want to purchase some full size springs and have someone mail them to you from the US asreplacement car part etc That might since I doubt Canada keeps a record of what the hell a AK spring looks like through a X-ray machine As long as the bodies andfollowers arent sent I think you will be set
As for the extra rounds in the pistol see above If for some reason it is a 1911 you could probably send the base plates the same way but you will need the springs as well Ihavent really meet anyone who believes anything over 10 rounds is a good idea in a 1911 They apparently dont function as well feed properly and I am not even sure anygood companies like wilson Chip McCormick(SP) carry them I could be wrong but all the 1911 nuts really look down on anything above 10 rounds
Now I am going to bed with my Walther and 1911 in this fine state that allows me to own them without being anally probed over a stupid round count I mean jesus if youhave 3 more rounds you might actually be able to hit someone because the first 10 are warning shots right Good luck
November 28th 2008 0534 PMLurkerLurker
Another option at getting a high capacity clip with out being limited is if you know someone who works in a Army Surplus store they usually have connections and can getwhat you want under the table They usually dont deal with people they dont know as it is risky to them
My friends dad has a 30 round banana clip for his 22 semi auto which he obtained through a Army Surplus Store in Canada and it is an awesome gopher shooting clip youcan shoot up dust trails behind a gopher as it running away
The magazine size restriction does not apply to rimfires in CanadaFor example the 10-22 butlercreek steel lips magazinesThey were available in Canada even when USA had their hi-cap ban
November 28th 2008 0751 PMKilly
This is total nonsense from 10 to 13 rounds of 45 Majority of the 45 pistols holds only 10 rounds due to the pretty big roundthere are not so many gun models that hold more and have normal magazine not sticking out of the frame
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification gt 30 caliber Homebrew SMG
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November 24th 2006 0713 PMThe Noid
Hello to all Allow me to introduce myself I am the Noid and Im fairly new here but not to firearms I collect all types of rifles pistols and machineguns but I really wanted tobuild my own Im very familiar with automatics (especially the Kalashnikov system) in general as I own a couple legal ones so I thought I would apply my knowledge toconstructing my own submachine gun
Ive studied Lutys work and I really like his ideas Very simple I wanted my SMG to operate in a similar manner be a larger caliber but use existing gun parts that werereadily available to me out of my parts reserves or fairly common
I wanted the weapon to fire a decent round something with more power than a 380 or 32 ACP I decided on 763 Mauser which is almost if not identical to 762 Tokarev Ihave literally thousansd of empty cases of 763 Mauser so ammo was not going to be a problem This is what I came up with
httpimg62imageshackusimg62933theprojectpj4jpg
I had a beat to hell M1 Carbine stock and surplus barrel left from restoring an old M1 so I thought that those would be useful I had my local gunsmith to cut the chamber onthe M1 barrel to accomodate the 763 Mauser round
The reciever is made of 175 outside diameter steel pipe with threads cut to fit that of the barrel I also had to weld the gas port on the M1 barrel closed I had to use a latheon some of the bolt but for the most part is hand made The extractor is an extra Mauser Broomhandle C96 fitted onto the bolt The charging handle is from an old 22 Thetrigger assembly is a hodge-podge of StenPPSH-41 Its pretty much a slightly scaled version of Lutys The spings are all from a Sten Mark III
The magazine is made from two aftermarket M1 Carbine mags welded sanded and blued One M1 mag would have given me only 11 rounds since the 763 is larger indiameter than 30 carbine I had to make and insert to fit in the magazine to keep the rounds in place since 763 Mauser is a bit shorter than original 30 carbine round Themax magazine capacity is 24 rounds
httpimg62imageshackusimg624861theproject2mx1jpgThis is a top view of the magazine with ammunition You can see at the top of the magazine where I made the insert and modified the follower to accomodate the shorter 763round
I have shot two magazines through it and it only jammed once and that was on the fourteenth round of the second magazine I plan to add some sort of optics eventually
I will apologize for the quality of the pictures I went out and bought a cheap ass Concord 20 megapixel camera just to take pictures (it was all I could afford) As for a film ofthe weapon being fired that wont happen unless I can find someone with a capable camera but if I do Ill post a video
I plan on making a real Luty model SMG in the next three months but I thought Id knock this project out of the way I hope you enjoyed it and feel free to ask questionsThanks
November 27th 2006 0102 AMneo-crossbow
Graet little build I think I mentioned the other day both the 30M1 and 762X25 calibres
You should look at an ultimak scout to top off the M1 Carbine barrel These mount nicely and mean you can get rid of the top wood from your stockCheck here for more infohttpwwwultimakcomm6htm
httpwwwultimakcomgallery30M1AimpointChoatejpgI have one here with an Aim Point sight and torch with the compulsory threaded barrel
httpimg151imageshackusimg1512233carbinemr5jpghttpimg244imageshackusimg2446521threadgr1jpg
November 27th 2006 0257 AMThe Noid
Oh thats nice Crossbow Ill definitely check into that
That stock I have on there is crap You can see in the picture where I had to repair a chunk of wood the right side with a slice of maple wood and epoxy The previous ownerbroke the stock while whacking at a dog that was attacking him Dunno why he didnt shoot it Id really like to get a nice synthetic for this thing Or perhaps a vertical foregripof some sort I know that would help with accuracy
The 763 Mauser762 Tokarev is a great round and so is 30 carbine I think they were the fastest round in the world until 357 Magnum came out However I have to becareful about shooting the two calibers in the SMG Surplus Tokarev rounds are much hotter than Mauser I think it could handle it but I dont wanna take a chance of screwingit up I worked too hard on it
November 29th 2006 0412 AMneo-crossbow
The 763 Mauser762 Tokarev is a great round and so is 30 carbine
For a long time both rounds carried some dogmatic hate from most people I have heard of the 30 Carbine being reffered to as the poor mans 300 whisper but alas whenyour onto a good thing run with it I am a great fan of the above calibers I think the 30 in particular is a good tinkerer of a cartidge and a great wifes gun (I know minecomplains at the recoil from a mini-14
Id really like to get a nice synthetic for this thing Or perhaps a vertical foregrip of some sort I know that would help with accuracy
I have only had experiance with the ramline synthetic stock but I would like one of those folders from ultimak As you can see in the pics of my carbine with the Aimpoint Ihave the capability to mount a fore-grip but instead have a remote torch mounted ( spose I could do both ) I simply got a length of rail and milled it into the wood epoxied insome knurled brass nuts and tightened it You cant use a lazer on the set up as you dont retain zero but a torch and fore-grip work well
Keep us updated~
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification gt Scratch built AR15 receiver
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March 5th 2007 0245 AMtdog49
Alright been a while since Ive posted Ran across this a while back and thought Id share itKinda useless to upload it to the ftp since the pdf file is right on the site
httpwwwgeocitiescomelmgrove1765project6project6html
March 5th 2007 0631 AMnbk2000
Rip the site save as a RAR and upload to the FTP as you never know when a site will go 404 never to be seen again
March 6th 2007 0252 AMamsci99
Agree with nbk2000 such information are hard to come by Remember seeing similar construction articles in the defunct magazine Firepower when I was younger
March 11th 2007 1151 AMInfernoMDM
I wonder how reliable that thing is considering the finicky nature of the AR
March 12th 2007 0802 PMborax
I wonder how reliable that thing is considering the finicky nature of the AR
After assembly and before live firing I manually dry cycled the firearm and doubled checked that the safety disconnector function trigger and magazine catch workedEverything checked out OK
I took it to the range and fired 60 shots No major problems I had 2 failures to go into battery - had to push slightly on the forward assist
Ill keep shooting it some more to break it in but other than that I am very pleased with the scratchbuilt receiver well on to the next project
March 14th 2007 0501 PMInfernoMDM
Dont quote whole posts
You are a braver engineer then I am I know the best of ARs have had issues Just a suggestion but piston driven conversion kits are being sold online for 399-4XX You couldget one and that MAY solve some issues
I really want to see a report when you hit the 2000+ range
I like what you did and its very impressive
March 14th 2007 0929 PMchemdude1999
piston driven conversion kits are being sold online for 399-4XX
POF makes a great piston upper but the price is outrageous I feel Maybe someone could design an easy home-built alternative An AR-15 that doesnt shit were it eats wouldbe great especially if it was cost-effective
March 15th 2007 0224 AMInfernoMDM
They are on the market and its a conversion of your old upper Just saw them on a gun forum today Apparently there are 3-5 companies making these upgrades and theyvery in reliability and quality
March 16th 2007 0101 AMtdog49
alright
I followed NBKs request and the info is now on the ftp
It is in the upload folder lumped in with all the loose pdfs
btw am I the only one that is a little creeped out by festergrump uploading a pdf on butchering human carcassesLOL----I downloaded it anyway
March 16th 2007 0206 AM120mm
I wonder how reliable that thing is considering the finicky nature of the AR
Its not that finicky If you are getting out-of-battery problems with a homebuilt AR look at your ammo (Wolf tends to be low-powered and sticky) the alignment of yourgas-block (I chamfer the hole in the barrel to make it easier to align and make sure your gas key is properly installed and staked in the BCG
The lower receiver in the AR is pretty non-critical You can have all sorts of slop machining-wise and still have a functional and accurate weapon
March 16th 2007 0217 AMnbk2000
Speaking of Wolf ammo Ive read numerous times about how after rapid fire and subsequent heating of the chamber the plastic coating they use on the casing will melt andfuse with the chamber making it impossible to use the weapon until the stuck cartridge is rammed out with a cleaning rod
Cheap ammo yes but only use MIL-SPEC brass cased ammo for a war load
March 16th 2007 0652 AMfestergrump
IIRC some Wolf ammo is lacquer coated and some isnt Im not sure if it matters more which factory manufactured it or the year it was made but there is a difference whichfolks should be aware of
BTW Tdog49 You gotta do something with them You cant be a bad boy yardie and just CREATE the bodies now can you and I dont happen to have a pig farm p D
March 23rd 2007 0348 AMtdog49
alright
I have uploaded a new folder of how-to info (starting with ar-15 stuff) onto the ftp I think that this is new stuff that was not already on the ftp I went through directoriesuntil my eyes bled and didnt see any duplicates but I am a welder so my eyes arent worth much
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where to lookfolderUPLOADfoldertdog49folderAr-15
March 23rd 2007 0927 PMreddog_2711
Just yesterday I came acrossed actual blueprints and cad files for the reciever sear and housing If I can figure out how Ill post them
March 28th 2007 0807 PMInfernoMDM
Just yesterday I came acrossed actual blueprints and cad files for the reciever sear and housing If I can figure out how Ill post them
Yeah they are floating all over the net I know several guys make there own weapons from blanks etc If I can find my old stuff I will post it
March 28th 2007 0851 PMchemdude1999
httpwwwcncgunsmithingcom
He has CAD files
March 28th 2007 1021 PMfestergrump
Which version of AutoCad if any supports IGS format I know 2000 or earlier doesnt Do I need to download a copy of Solidworks just to be able to transfer it to DXF orDWG format Can this be done with SW
I got all hot and bothered when you mentioned CAD files PDF files are a dime a dozen and wont do it justice at least for me ACAD is the only way to go Many thanks forthe link though Chemdude
Must haveDXAaaaaaaaah Hes dead Jim eek
(so Im an old Trekky So what p )
March 29th 2007 0620 PMchemdude1999
Sorry I didnt mention the IGS files
I know SolidWorks is a pain I use to have a copy on my machine but dumped it since I needed the space
I did find a possible viewer
httpwwwmodelpresscomigs-viewerhtm
If it doesnt work type igs file viewer in google It has more listings
Good luck
April 1st 2008 1040 AMPhanatic
This isinteresting considering you need some near-unobtainable license in NZ to get this Maybe a project for the future when I have my own house and hopefully by thenworkshop
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The Explosives and W eapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n gt beretta 92 full auto
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March 11th 2007 0628 PMmacgyver6868
Does anyone know howI know of 2 ways and was wondring if there were any m oreThe first is to have a set of parts for theberetta 93r and m achine them to fit th e 92 fram eThe second is to m ake an auto searI know how to do the auto searbut idont have a pic to describe it
March 11th 2007 1149 PMdefiant
The Beretta 92 is a fine pistol as it is nor would it be controllable in full auto
W hy convert it W ouldnt your time be better spent on some oth er project
March 12th 2007 0115 AMknowledgehungry
The only benefit of a full auto handgun is it gives you p ractice reloading W hile I am sure it would be fun to have a full autohandgun I think it is a waste of a good quality gun If I wanted a full auto handgun for fun I would buy a cheap knock off gunnot waste a perfectly good one
March 12th 2007 0553 AMLibertyOrDeath
Im with the others Even full-auto rifles are difficult to control and arent of much use beyond about 25m when sem i is better(unless you have a belt-fed weapon with support l ike a bipod) Full-auto handguns in respectable calibers are alm ost nevercontrollable Youll ge t more h its in less time with rapid sem i-auto Also the very high rate of fire on m ost m achine pistols willcause the m ag to be emptied in a sm all fraction of a second -- brraaappp That makes tactical reloads (reloading with around sti l l in the chamber in case you need it) almost impossible
If you feel you must convert a handgun to full-auto you should at least add an im provise d stock to the weapon It shouldntbe too difficult to m ake and m ight look something l ike the stock for the R ussian Stechkin APS m achine pistol
httpenwik ipediaorgwikiStechkin_APS
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification gt Production of a rotary drum magazine
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April 24th 2007 1037 PMDeathBlade
Well since the assult weapons ban is gone Ive been stocking up on high capacity mags for my sks pistols etc But there is one weapon in my collection that I shoot the mostbut only has a seven round clip a mossberg plinkster 22 And as we all know reloading after seven shots is a drag So I trying to make a high capacity magazine for the 22and after digging in my junk box Ive come up broken windup alarm clock for the main spring some strips of stainless steel some deltrin and pvc blocks and another clip for theplinker Ive gotten stuck when I try to visulize if this would work or not The diagram below should help can someone see something Im missing Also does any one know ofsome exploded diagrams of other type of drum clips that might give me a better idea
In the image the Red object is the follower the Blue coil is the main springThe Copper colored circles are shells the main problem is that some shells will stay in the verticle section of the cliphttpi151photobucketcomalbumss156DeathBlade556clipgif
April 25th 2007 0450 AMKhalnath
That is the general idea of a rotary drum magazine yes but I doubt you will be able to make one yourself easily Its tricky engineering to get those kind of magazines to feedreliably
Itd be nice if it worked though In Canada we have magazine restrictions but not on rimfire rifles so hicap rimfire mags are in high demand
Also what you describe is a magazine not a clip A magazine feeds ammunition into the chamber A clip is used to load a magazine The En bloc clip of the M1 Garand is agood example Generally if it has a spring its a magazine If it doesnt its a clip
April 25th 2007 0512 AMChippedHammer
Drum magazines are difficult to build and are not too reliable they also put strain on the magazine release mechanism due to having 100+ rounds inside If you shoot 100rounds you still have to reload 100 rounds personally I would just buy heaps of a magazines rather than go to the trouble of making a drum magazine
April 25th 2007 1252 PMInfernoMDM
If you want to attempt this and you are going to make your own might I suggest looking at the 1022 high capacity magazines You might just be able to take a old magazinefor yours and jury rig it to the top and then have a follower with a few extra dummy rounds to push the last round in
Besides even if you dont want to go plastic the internals of the magazine might give you some ideas to work from
April 25th 2007 0139 PMnbk2000
I know there are drum mags made for the 1022 Buy one of those and replace the top with a magazine that fits your gun
The problem with drum mags is that reloading them is a drag too unless theyre like the chinese AK drum which pops open so you can just drop in the ammo not feed it inone-round-at-a-time
April 25th 2007 0235 PMDeathBlade
With a stick mag you might have an extra foot of magazine under the receiver and I want it to be somewhat compact so its a drum mag And as for modifying a 1022 magI never thought of that So I guess Ill look into modding a 1022 (or maybe a calico 22 helical mag) And NBKs comment about a removeable back to the drum is great itwould ease up reloading the magazine
And as for fabbing one I was doing some math and I can use a strip of 116th inch steel strip and Tig it in a spiral to a disk of 18th and I can use a 22 shells as spacers asIm welding it I think the clock spring might be too weak but I have the spring from the pullstart from a weed trimmer so that should be stronger Ill post picture of theprogress as I get to fabricating it
April 25th 2007 0416 PMsobreroHWE
The price of AKsmagsparts etc has been going up quite alot recently (DeltaForce my Ultra rightwing state etc) AK ammo is on its way to being unaffordable to the commonperson($901000 4 yrs ago-$1701000 today) and I have seen drums go from $75 when I bought mine in 2000 (Chinese type NBK mentions) and today I cant find one inany gun show or shop for less than $140 When mine was damaged from a science project malfunction a local gunsmith told me to fix it myself and look for higher prices incoming years
It is interesting to note the almost textbook process by which bad things are removed As with our beloved books it seems AKs and other assault rifles (even magsdrums)are well on their way to becoming unaffordable and or simply out of stock But that does not seem to have stopped any of us from learning from each other and improvisingI believe the same can be said for creative souls like DeathBlade Im sure improvising a nice drum cant be much harder than the ultra scientific mixtures and calculations youpeople seem to casually recite off hand with ease confused Very interesting topic
April 25th 2007 0431 PMKhalnath
You can get magazine loaders for the 1022 where you just turn the knob to fill the magazine Of course if the magazine is modified at the feed end the loader wont fitanymore either
Loading those mags without the loader IS a pain in the ass (I have 25rd stick mags)
If you really want hicap consider getting a 1022 instead
April 26th 2007 0447 PMprespec
The design looks OK but you will have trouble with the transition from rotary travel of cartridges to vertical They will tend to jam up at the point they change directionYou could shorten the vertical stack and placing the spring outside the mag will save space as well as making adjustments easier to accomplish
Prepare for a lot of work and several fabrications then you may get it to workor simply build some extended clip mags out of existing ones
April 26th 2007 0955 PMamachinist
The jamming which prespec can be overcome by utilizing a design similar to the Beta Magazine a roller link chain style with rollers being larger than the links it will follow thecurvature around the spiral path
April 28th 2007 0355 PMKhalnath
The design looks OK but you will have trouble with the transition from rotary travel of cartridges to vertical They will tend to jam up at the point they change direction
The usual solution to this is to have the tower (the straight part) come off the tangentially instead like the opening on a snail shell That way the cartridges dont HAVE tochange direction
April 30th 2007 0423 AMprespec
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Totally agree Khalnath This obvious solution occurred to me shortly after postingAs for the follower it could be a pin moving in a spiral groove milled in the mag body with the spring travelling externallyAll could be enclosed in a dust cover with an exposed butterfly lever to pre-tension the spring and ease loadingNot a whole lot different from an MG 3442 drum mag
Also if you are just intending to use the perimeter of the mag you could make the drum smaller and fabricate a fairly powerful spring out of music wire and house the springinternally as it would only need to function on a constant radius
April 30th 2007 0153 PMnbk2000
Itd probably be far easier to adapt an existing 22 drum magazine to work with your gun than to make a magazine from scratch Ive seen drums for the Ruger 1022 forabout $60
May 8th 2007 1049 PMDeathBlade
Well Ive not got much work done on the clip front I was able to get a semi working clip done but the maxium amount of rounds I could load was 19 shells before it would jamup The maxium I ever got to fire was 12 So its still a learning process But I was able to modify the rifle enough that the barrel is now easily removable and held in place witha 25 locking pin Ill post some pictures of the progess soon
May 8th 2007 1121 PMBugger
I understand that machine-guns with rotary drum magazines were the WMD of choice of the Prohibition-era gangsters on the 1920s and early 1930s They were frequentlyused for drive-by gang executions of informers and rival gangsters spraying whole areas with bullets
May 9th 2007 0212 AMfestergrump
I dont think youll ever get a CLIP to work with the drum MAGAZINE youre working on DeathBlade SMACK (bad habits are hard to break but do please try to work onthem)
You stomp on every firearm enthusiast who resides heres nuts every time you refer to a magazine as a clip This forum (and all forums under the roof of Roguesciorg)demand attention to detail terminology grammar spelling etc
We demand people to learn from their mistakes here Youve made the mistake once already in this thread just posts ago Learn the difference between CLIP and MAGAZINEand commit it to memory pretty fucking please
On topic I think the problem you are having is with the spring binding inside the magazine housing if youve already gotten 19 to load
Now did the 19 you loaded dry-cycle through the weapon it was intended for or did they bind up upon firing Did any of the rounds load past the elbow joint in themagazine
You can only expect answers as detailed as the input you provide pics (real ones from this point on you promised) would help since we cant be there to witness the faultsof your design ourselves
March 2nd 2008 1012 PMIriOfTheSnow
If you going to make a 22 rimfire magazine remember that the primer is located on the rim of the casing a particularly soft casing You should probably avoid putting anypressure on the rims (ie with thread spacers) or you might just die Traditional rimless magazine designs wont work because youll end up stacking the rounds rim-to-rim Ifyou let the magazine spring slam shut on the rounds or if the the cycling action does so I imagine that the results will be none to good
March 6th 2008 0845 AMneetje
IriofTheSnow is right that the 22 lr has a soft casing but I have yet to see the first 22 lr explode on reloading a mag I dont think its going to be a problem
And I dont know if youve ever watched Mythbusters on Discovery channel they did a test with 22lr used as a fuse in a pickup truck Although it might hurt when theyexplode the bullets dont penetrate soft tissue Without the barrel a 22 lr loses a lot of force
August 21st 2008 1224 PMfunwrecker
Another spring that may work for you comes in one of those retractable dog leashes
As for that hard transition from round cylinder to vertical just have it transition using a longer slope ( if you get my meaning just trying to put thought pictures into words ifthis is even possible ) )
September 3rd 2008 1116 AMmackamitsu
You are better off modifying an existing magazine to fit your rifle You may have to sacrifice a stick mag that is known to fit your rifle and adapt it to your 22 cal cal drum foranother rifle You will have to remove the spring and platform when you join the 2 mags so they dont get damaged by the heat if you use a welding process You also wontbe able to make guides internally as they will stop the bullets from being loaded and fed properly Also after welding you will need to smooth the beads on the inside so theplatform wont bind and cause misfeed issues
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The Explosives and W eapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n gt defender blankfirersingle shot 22 project
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May 14th 2007 0220 PMAKA ZZ
I have recently been very bored due to being a lm ost indefinably off work following a RTA so today I set about exploring thepossibility if m aking a sm all 22cal blank firing revolver pictured here fire live
httpi139p hotobucketcomalbumsq294akazz69DSC00078-1jpg
Obviously there are m easures in place to stop people doing this l ike a solid barrel and blocked cylinders
httpi139p hotobucketcomalbumsq294akazz69DSC00079jpg
So I removed the chamber cylinders and with the aid of my rusty drem el rem oved the barrel and the upper fram e rail(pictured)
httpi139p hotobucketcomalbumsq294akazz69DSC00081-1jpg
I then cut 35ins from an old 22 air rifle barrel as a substitute a nd drilled out a cham ber for the round to sit in and a sm allslot to aid extraction
The weapon has been test fired in a vice as it is not welded together yet on testing the we apon was loaded with an air riflepellet and a 22 blank Tests showed the pellet consistently being put though both sides of alum in ium bin and roug hly 8-10m m into the wall behind
Better pictures and te st footage will follow as I progress further with the project apologies for the poor typing skills i amlearning to type witho ut the m ovem ent of m y left hand
May 21st 20 07 111 3 PMJakeGallows
Sounds l ike a fun pro ject
W hy did you have to detach the barrel and upp er frame with the dremel Ive never seen a replica up close Could youperhaps use a dril l press to re vitalize the barrel and cylinders confused
March 12th 2008 0922 PMpaul88
Som eone told m e that the barrels of those blank firing revolvers are cheap metal So he m ay have taken the barrel off as toavoid a potential grenade
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The Explosives and W eapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n gt Jaco Home-Built PistolPlan s
View Full Version Jaco Home-Built Pistol Plans
Decem ber 4th 2007 0109 AMa3990918
Directions an d sim ple plans for constructing a single-shot 22cal derringer with a m inimal of tools and supplies
httprapidsharedefi les379 69679Jaco_Derringerpdfhtml
I will be posting a couple of m ore plans by Jaco One is a m ini-pistol (basically another derringer) and a larger fram ed singleshot Western Style p istol
Decem ber 4th 2007 1129 PMa3990918
Directions an d sim ple plans for constructing a single-shot 22cal derringer with a m inimal of tools and supplies
httprapidsharedefi les379 69679Jaco_Derringerpdfhtml
I will be posting a couple of m ore plans by Jaco One is a m ini-pistol (basically another derringer) and a larger fram ed singleshot Western Style p istol
As p rom ised the other 2 pistol plans Enjoy
Jaco _Mini_Pistol
httprapidsharedefi les379 69685Jaco_Mini_Pistolpdfhtml
--------------
Jaco _W estern_Style_Pistol
httprapidsharedefi les379 69688Jaco_Western_Style_Pistolpdfhtml
January 29th 2008 0150 PMiHME
Heres one m ore
Jaco Pioneer BP Pistol
httprapidsharecom files87599394Jaco_Pio neer_BP_Pistolpdf
February 10th 2008 0215 PMiHME
I cam e to think about this one thing the pam phlets only nam e the dim ensions o f the raw m aterials and th en they assum ethat you trace the drawings from it How do I know that the plans are at the right scale Not even the classic one inch m ark onthe blueprints nothin g Does any one have an idea about what to do I could find my self building the 22 westerner after m yown design
February 10th 2008 0612 PMKilly
Maybe that was the intention of author to fool the buyer of book while being legal since nobody could build anything fromthe book
February 11th 2008 0152 AMa3990918
Actually I think that if you check in the written material it gives several o f the dem ensions needed You m ay have to print outa copy of the diagram m easure the dem ension on the print and then adjust size and print anothe r copy May take a couple oftries to get it down perfect Th e directions for the derringer even state to cut the parts oversize so they can be hand fitted Ihave not gone over these really well If I get som e free tim e this week Il l pull them up a nd see if I can offer anym oreassistance
February 11th 2008 0454 AMiHME
W hy didnt I think of that That should work Tough practicaly there are o nly two measure told in the plans caliber and barrelleng th
February 11th 2008 1127 AMCharles Owlen Picket
If you are now seeing actual alterations in prod uction dim ensions or things of that nature in works published within the lastyear or so this is extrem ely im portant Several bills have past into law that deal with the dissem ination of information thatboarder on d irect censorship
Anything that appears to be altered to make them unworkable a synthesis unm anageable or related misinform ation shouldbe posted and exam ined thoughtfully IF indeed we ha ve entered an ag e when such censorship is progressing tha ts a veryserious thing I would be very interested in any exam ples of an actual ce nsoring agenda
February 11th 2008 0843 PMa3990918
W hy didnt I think of that That should work Tough practicaly there are o nly two measure told in the plans caliber and barrel
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leng th
I was rem em bering the derringer prints I pulled the W estern Pistol plans up today and scanned over them briefly There wasalso a demension for the m uzzle of the barrel The m uzzle end of the barrel is tapered starting at the middle of the barrelleng th to a d ia of 58 inch at the muzzle not counting the crown Also the demension for the flat on the barrel whe re itm ounts to th e fram e Draw file a flat on barrel 516 inch wide by 2-12 inches long to fit part 26
These plans I think were mo re of a g uideline for som ebody with some gunsm ithing andor machinist experience to interpretas you see fit than a s cut and dried dem ensional drawings Good luck with your build please keep us apprised as to yourprogress
If you are now seeing actual alterations in prod uction dim ensions or things of that nature in works published within the lastyear or so this is extrem ely im portant Several bills have past into law that deal with the dissem ination of information thatboarder on d irect censorship
Anything that appears to be altered to make them unworkable a synthesis unm anageable or related misinform ation shouldbe posted and exam ined thoughtfully IF indeed we ha ve entered an ag e when such censorship is progressing tha ts a veryserious thing I would be very interested in any exam ples of an actual ce nsoring agenda
Thanks for posting th is I agree with it Do you have a web address for m ore info on this These plans are 36+ years old sowould not apply here
February 18th 2008 0842 AMiHME
I found a old thread about a m ember building a Jaco westerner pistol at the Hom e Gunsm ith Forum sThe Post (httpwwwhomegunsm ithcom cgi-binib3ikonboardcgiact=STf=3t=17374)
You will probably need to register to view the thread Bu t that forum is worth registering
October 22nd 2008 0509 AMBekkelund
HiDidnt Jaco sell som e drawings for Muzzleloader tools I think I rem embe r a straight fil ing support I would like to have a copym ine was lost many years and m ovings ago
Anyone know
October 22nd 2008 0934 AMiHME
W ell I dont have it And I have searched for other Jaco books e arlier did find a m ention to a blueing book but nothing elseId say that the best bet would be trying to find som e onewho owns the book and pursue him to scan it O r atleast take som epictures with a camera
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification gt 80 firearms winter project
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December 14th 2007 0959 PMCosmikDebris
I have been researching the 6080 firearms kits for some time now and have decided to give it a go
The project will be a government model 1911 The task seems to be pretty straightforward The procedures as well as the pros and cons of the build will be documented andpostedHere s one link of many
httpwwwdiygunscom
December 14th 2007 1044 PMjpsmith123
Im wondering if the slide rails can be cut (using the rail cutting tool you can buy specifically for this purpose) by using a cross-slide vise mounted to a drill press or would youneed a small milling machine
December 14th 2007 1116 PMfestergrump
That sort of thing is okay for very light milling jobs but the bearings in a drillpress just arent up to the continuous task of milling on a horizontal axis especially when dealingwith metals
Even a light duty cheapo Harbor Freight mill would be worth spending a couple hundred bucks on if any work on the X and Y planes are required The tolerances of a cheapmill are probably measured more along the lines of 1100ths instead of 11000ths though Many light passes and a good set of calipers will be your friend as always
Dont be frugal with the bits either
December 15th 2007 0130 AMa3990918
That sort of thing is okay for very light milling jobs but the bearings in a drillpress just arent up to the continuous task of milling on a horizontal axis especially when dealingwith metals
Quite right Also the spindle of most Drill presses uses a Morse Taper friction fit tool hoolder vs a a locked down(draw bar etc) holder in a mill andor lathe Could create a littlecomotion when you put a little lateral pressure on the drill press and your razor sharp mill tool comes flying out of the spindle at a few hundred RPM and starts bouncing aroundyour work area eek
If you absolutly dont want to buy a mill I have some plans for converting a drill press to a very light duty mill Still doesnt address the possibility of the mill flying out but willsave the bearings in your DPs quill If I can find them Ill up load to Rapidshare and post a link
December 15th 2007 0344 AMa3990918
If you absolutly dont want to buy a mill I have some plans for converting a drill press to a very light duty mill Still doesnt address the possibility of the mill flying out but willsave the bearings in your DPs quill If I can find them Ill up load to Rapidshare and post a link
Here are the plans I promised The 1st two are for Drill Press modifications to use as a mill The last one is an old plan for building a small bench top horizonal mill that couldeasily be modified into a vertical mill EnjoyD
File Building a Mill from a Drillpdf (446 KB)httprapidsharedefiles38052686Building_a_Mill_from_a_Drillpdfhtml
File PM DP Millpdf (488 KB)httprapidsharedefiles38052687PM-DP-Millpdfhtml
File SN22BenchMillpdf (174 KB)httprapidsharedefiles38052688SN22BenchMillpdfhtml
December 15th 2007 1101 AMjpsmith123
Im probably going to end up getting a micro milldrill such as the one from harbor freight for $320
BTW does anyone know if the mechtech pistol to rifle conversion kits need the slide rails cut in the receiver Im guessing they probably do but Id like to verify it
httpwwwmechtechsyscom1911html
December 15th 2007 0227 PMa3990918
Im probably going to end up getting a micro milldrill such as the one from harbor freight for $320httpwwwmechtechsyscom1911html
Be carefull these little Mini-Mills are notorious for the column flexing(because of the thin wall tube used for the column) while under load could easily ruin an expensiveproject( They can be made more stable by either filling the tube with cementconcrete with reinforcement or by replacing the column with a thicker wall tube There are acouple of groups on Yahoo that deal with these Well worth joining them before spending the money on the mill
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification gt material choice for gun barrel chamber
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April 11th 2008 0721 PMbobo
I am finallyp going to make a gun since I have now access to a metal workshop In my country firearms are haram and everything will have to be made from scratch orscrap Besides this is the whole goddam point making stuff from scratch
I suppose I start out with single-shot maybe to incorporate a magazine when it works My caliber of choice is a 22 because those are easy to get black market and seem tohave so little force that catastrophic mishap seems unlikely
I have a limitless supply of 12mm steel bars and a few 16mm steel bars Of course I can obtain every type of bar needed if these are not right
My questions to the more experienced tweakers and gunsmiths are
1 which outer diameter do I take Is is bigger = better (but heavier)2 is it OK to use a 6mm bore for the barrel or should I order a 58mm bit 57mm2b is there a minimum length to the barrel Obviously iacutet will be a short barrel since Ill have to drill it3 how many shots can you expect from a gun like this before failure and what be failure be like4 do I bother with rifling in a hand gun5 should I think about refilling 22 cartridges with stuff that is entirely home made including tips
And for the alternative backup plan A single shot shotgun that can be fed with cartridges that I also will have to prepare by myself
1 Which thickness for the barrel in this case versus the diameter of the shotgun shell
If good comes out of this I promise some pictures and plans
April 12th 2008 0741 AMtomu
For 22 lr cartridge any steel will do Even cheap construction steel will have the necessary yield strength to withstand the pressure of a 22 lr The 22 lr develops a maxpressure of about 1800 bar which translates to around 180 Nmm2 (Newton per square millimeter) Construction steel has a tensile strength above 300 Nmm2 the yieldstrength is about 235 Nmm2
( I had to make a correction here due to a mistake inmy vocabulary I mistook yield strength for tensile strength SORRY)
To 1I wouldnrsquot go below a wall thickness of 3mm better 5 mm for a 22 lr barrel but I wouldnrsquot want to exceed a wall thickness of 10 mm (eg in a simple rifle) Of course Ilsquom nottalking about high precision competition rifles here obviously
To 2The bullet diameter of a 22 lr is 568 mm so I would choose a 56 - 57 mm drill bit And I would step drill my barrel start with a 3 mm bit and after that drill with a 5 mm bitnext take a 55 mm bit and after that I would ream it to correct size If you could ream it to the correct diameter take a 56 mm drill bit and measure the bore if it is anythingabove 565 mm I would leave it below that finish with 57 mm bitTo 2bThe minimum length would be the cartridge length of 25 mm and you wonrsquot gain much by exceeding a length of 450 mm
To 3 Canrsquot answer that for obvious reason
To 4Do you have the equipment to rifle a barrel My guess is no We are not talking about building a competition gun here For a self defense pistol were the shooting distance ismostly below 5 m I wouldnrsquot even think about to take the pain and rifle my own barrel
To 5Out of curiosity I once tried to reload fired 22 lr shells it is a real pain in the The results are as unreliable as you can get it I used scraped of amorces for the primerpocket and black powder as a propellant
The pressure of a normal 12 gauge shotgun shell is about 800 bar so itrsquos even lower than that of a 22 lr As above I wouldnlsquot want a wall below 3 mm better 5 mm
April 13th 2008 0831 AMteshilo
You want maximize or minimize thick walls of barrel Maximize for use various rounds with various action and gas pressure in barrel minimize for light and disposable use
April 13th 2008 1202 PMiHME
I read somewhere that 15mm would be enough for 22lr Im personally building a bolt-action single shot 22lr pistol of my own design Im going to use a 16mm high tensilebolt for the barrel and thus Id have about 5mm wall thickness so it should be enough And if one wants to read about good sources for suitable steels for firearms the BillHolmes books could be a valuable resource
April 14th 2008 1126 PMAlexires
Of course everything here is theoretical isnt is guys
shakes head Remember to write that it is theoretical as you wouldnt want some government agency getting the wrong impression that you would think about doingsomething illegal or haram as you put it bobo
April 15th 2008 0443 AMa3990918
To 4Do you have the equipment to rifle a barrel My guess is no We are not talking about building a competition gun here For a self defense pistol were the shootingdistance is mostly below 5 m I wouldn t even think about to take the pain and rifle my own barrel
I agree unless you just absolutly needwant to have a rifled barrel I havent seen them in a while but use to you could buy barrel liners for replacing the bore of a shot outbarrel without having to purchase a new barrel Just drill the barrel out to the manufacturers spec Apply something like a bearing adhesive to the insert and install A littletrimming up and cleaning up and viola new rifling Would of course also work with a smooth bore you want to rifle
April 15th 2008 0550 PMtomu
I have a hunch that he cant lay his hands on barrel liners or barrel blanks so its fruitless to discuss them He is talking about drilling his barrels from steel bars my guess is hewouldnt do this if he could get a real barrel
Btw barrel liners could be bought from Brownells
May be he could get hold of an old air gun with a 55 mm barrel he could make use of this But personnely I would not want to waste it on my first try to make a gun
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April 15th 2008 1003 PMa3990918
I have a hunch that he cant lay his hands on barrel liners or barrel blanks so its fruitless to discuss themBtw barrel liners could be bought from Brownells
Yes I understand that due to regulations barrels can be illegal but are there restrictions on barrel liners Anybody I wouldnt think so since in and of themselves they do notcostitute a firearm component
Also there are several plans on the internet for building simple rifling machines
April 16th 2008 1056 AMkaiserbill
Yes I understand that due to regulations barrels can be illegal but are there restrictions on barrel liners Anybody I wouldnt think so since in and of themselves they do notcostitute a firearm component
Also there are several plans on the internet for building simple rifling machines
There are many countries where owning any component for a firearm that you dont have a licence for is illegal
Looking at P Lutys info on expedient gun barrels made from seamless tubing for 22 the tubing he suggests comes with a 2mm wall thickness
In fact for the far more powerful 9mm parabellum cartridge the tubes he recommends have wall thicknesses of between 25mm and 30mm I have not yet built his designsso I cannot comment on safety or integrity
April 16th 2008 1126 AMkaiserbill
Just measured the barrel thickness of a friends Luger M90 (Browning HP clone)
The barrel wall thickness is 2mm
April 16th 2008 0138 PMtomu
Yes I understand that due to regulations barrels can be illegal but are there restrictions on barrel liners
At least there are some european countries where buying barrel as well as barrel liners requires a license
Depending on the yield- and tensile strenght of the steel you could even go below a wall thickness of one millimeter for a 22 lr But personally I wouldnt consider it as saveand sane especially when more than one shot should be fired from the gun
Luty shrouds his improvised barrel with set rings (is this the right term for those rings) to certain length
April 16th 2008 0726 PMbobo
well first of all thanks everyone especially Tomu for the useful comments
My steel bars are scrap of unknown quality and as such Id like to be safe rather than sorry with thickness Of course if inspection would reveal the signs of wear instead of asudden failure then Id feel safer playing with it
The prospect of government agents taking action against me seem slim since roguesci would need to reveal my IP and besides I am not a terrorist just a civilian who hates thestrict firearm laws
The main point is that I want to make a firearm that requires only an archaic lathe some scrap steel and some toy parts to produce a lethal and concealable weapon Indeedfor academic purposes only (and publication on the internet) given the fact that I am perfectly allowed to obtain a firearm for sporting purposes and match grade ammo Legalmeans that police can show up at any time to check on your weapons though so for self-defence legal firearms are worse than useless here (unless the whole countrycollapses)
My plan is now to make the weapon with four main parts pen-gun design It should have a barrel and the part that locks with it (whatever its name is in english) These twoparts are connected by thread so to load the gun it has to be screwed on There is a thin tipped firing pin in it and a powerful spring behind it unsprung just like the spring in aball-point All these parts can be disassembled and assembled quickly I guess Id make a piece that is interchangeable with the barrel itself but with a pencil tip in it so that itlooks like some heavy duty mechanic pencilD
A little tidbit of information in the Netherlands white powder is obtainable without the actual permit (of course an organic chemist can manufacture this and leave no trail at allbut to do this right takes a lot of skill) In Germany alarm gun ammo can be obtained there that can be used as the cap (Luty describes this process in the expedient ammobook) for caps Professional reload materials are outside permit and OTC Bullet tips are easily obtained This means that clandestine ammo can be made from OTC parts in aquality exceeding the factory quality if one is an experienced reloader of course the scrap parts gun would be so inaccurate that the quality of ammo is a moot point
If I go the way suggested by Tomu Id take a 57 drill bit The 57 size makes it suitable for factory ammo However how realistic is it to manufacture our own ammo atbasically ANY caliber including the unsuspicious 65mm caliber (aka a design that can de-facto be used even if the barrel has to be custom-made by a third party without anysuspicions)
And very importantly how much bigger should the inner diameter of the barrel be than the ammo (so to fit hmmm a luger 9mm take 91mm or somthing)
April 22nd 2008 1018 PMamachinist
A quick formula for determining the outer diameter requirementsDo=Diameter outerDi= Diameter of boreP= Pressure (ie propellant pressure)F= Safety factor (Recommend minimum of 2)Y= Yield strength
Do=Di(1+PFY)^05
Suitable materials (4140 and variants)Din 17223 41CrMo4 Din 17225BS708 M 40 42CrMo4BS 3111-51 4140SCM 440 BS708A4242CD4TS 708M402244 SCM440(H)SND742CD442CrMo42244
Just remember to utilize the diameter of the case for Do at the breech end
April 23rd 2008 0407 PMbobo
ok so far for being a beginner in a firearmophobic country I finished my barrel and hammerpiece with central firing pin and then concluded that my ammo isrimfirerolleyes
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So any suggestions from here on Do I keep on going and construct some centerfire 22 ammo or is it better to change the relative position of barrel and hammerpiecepinand go for rimfire
April 24th 2008 1120 AMtomu
Well bobo shit happens I guess
What is the easier way Do just have just finished drilling and chambering the barrel but havent it fixed to the gun frame so my guess is it would be easier to fix the relativeposition
If you make alterations in the ammo you have do do this also in the future which is a question of how often you would like to fire the gun
April 26th 2008 0748 PMbobo
It is a screw thread chambering right now This would work for centerfire 22 but they are an oddity so it seems Rimfire make this design a lot more difficult because theposition of the pin hole is not central and can be in any position I do not see a practical way to initiate rimfire ammo using a spring with this thing This means I need to refillthe rimfire cases and turn them into 22 centerfire (nearly impossible to do this right so it will be shabby ammo or worse) or abandon the 22 caliber
April 28th 2008 0648 AMtomu
bobo would you please explain what do you mean by screw threat chambering And what is the problem with rimfire ammo
Maybe do a little sketch (free hand) post it somewhere to be downloaded and describe your problem with the spring and the firing pin
April 28th 2008 0811 PMbobo
screw thread M12 thread on the barrel M12 thread cut into the block Like a hollow bolt and nut with a small hole in it
[edit aw hell that ascii drawing was absolutely garbled after submitting removed it]
The bullet (not drawn) will be squeezed in between tightly if screwed on A firing pin on a metal bar with a powerful spring behind it is triggered ball point style This way thecontraption is single shot will not be reloading quickly but it is an object of minimal size consisting of four parts The bullet will absolutely not fire its case backwards
This is thus an utterly primitive thing nothing to be proud of even once it succeeds but itll serve for a useful lesson in improvising firearms and testing ammo
April 29th 2008 0707 AMtomu
Ahh
I thought at first you hd cut the chamber with a tap
Anyway why dont you use an offset firing pin Just a steel rod where the firing pin is excentrically fitted to it Or if the steel rod is too small a kind of fork with two prongsfitted to the small steel rod
April 30th 2008 1050 AMbobo
Yes Ill have to drill one excentrically The device will be a little more awkward (even more awkward) but this seems like the best way to adapt to rimfire
May 3rd 2008 0900 AMtomu
httpwwwyoutubecomwatchv=9T9UDasLeiA
Maybe this video of a crude made 22 single shot tilting breech pistol is of interest to you
May 24th 2008 1117 AMwolfy9005
just a thought but for the barrel you could import a short section of seamless hydraulic tubing it would be listed as hydraulic tubing and so shouldnt be illegal maybe ring upa few companies and ask for aome sample offcuts of the required ID then go from there even if you only got a 7-8 55mm ID tube atleast its better then a bolt ofunknown consistency also it would simplify manufacture just ask and say you are making a science project for your son(or yourself if your young enough) which involvesmaking a hydraulic cylinder just a thought most companies will supply you happily as it usually just goes in the bin anyway
May 24th 2008 0107 PMsbovisjb1
It is suggested to go with stainless steel as it has higher resistance to elements and when you fire it doesnt bend and warp as much that said its MUCH more difficult to drillream and rifle
October 21st 2008 0839 PMSetharier
Talking about barrel making in general
I was hypothesizing using a thin steel pipe 1mm rim strength rifled to being rolled on with several dozen even couple of hundred times with finest mesh glass fiber one canget You heard correctly They used this stuff in a shotgun barrel in the 70s but people didnt trust it and it didnt sold althrough was referred being even many times strongerthan its steely counterpart
I have been planning of attempting making out such a construction when I have more time and equipment to complete it I found airsoft barrels being readily capable ofdischarging 22LR cartridge through plank without any breakage or expansion in the discharging end but no one can speak of accuracy the bullet can be dropped through dueto the wrong caliber ratio - 22 being 57mm and AS barrel 6mm min
One could purchase 9mm innerdim pipe and roll 300 layers fine mesh glass fibre in resin bath In the chamber end one would roll twice as much and even at least partiallyuse the 9mm shell or a model made of it forming the chamber
I bet this is worth of testing
October 22nd 2008 0845 AMkaiserbill
Certainly sounds like it warrants further investigation De Marcos shoulder launcher utilized PVC pipe strengthened with layers of glass fibre as well albeit this was a recoilesslauncher and thus subject to far lower pressures A shotgun would be much
Setharier do you recall the make of the 1970s shotgun you mention that utilized the external glass fibre strengthener
November 28th 2008 0957 AMSetharier
I dont remember just now on what decade that shotgun was actually manufactured but it had glass fibre barrel and said it withstanded several times the pressure of whatsimilar steel barrel would have done
About the barrels and material once again There has been discussion of less powerful mostly 22cal barrels How about making 308Win machine gun barrel The materialchoice seems absolutely more important on this The cartridge produces 62000 psi (430 MPa) or nearly 4300 bars of pressure
Rifle barrels are usually made from steel alloys called ordinance steel nickel steel chrome-molybdenum steel or stainless steel depending upon the requirements of the
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cartridge for which they are chambered
I always tought stainless steel is very soft metal but also heard that several rifle barrels are actually made out of it Purchasing an 1 rod two feet long of stainless and thenlathing it does not sound impossible nor too expensive in any mean
November 28th 2008 0507 PMtomu
snipI always tought stainless steel is very soft metal but also heard that several rifle barrels are actually made out of it snip
A barrel should be tough and soft usually well below 30deg on the HRC scale to withstand the high dynamic stresses A 42CrMo4 steel is quite suitable for a highpower barrelAlso most stainless steels will be ok
November 28th 2008 0951 PMSetharier
How comes the rifling I quickly hypothethized using two pillars or other solid mass elements car jacks and a hardened-steel rifling rod The jacks easily push several tons andenable the rifling device to be pushed through the barrel
Using the deactivated barrel unit would be laziest and easiest but potentially dangerous way since the chamber has been drilled and tap pushed through it severely weakeningit Anyway it could be drilledslammed away and reinforce-mass-welded and I bet it would withstand about enough to make the gun act repeatingly
December 1st 2008 0156 PMtomu
How comes the rifling snip
Using the deactivated barrel unit would be laziest and easiestsnip
Your best choice is cut rifling somewhere on this forum is a threat about a video of Guy Lautards rifling machine Making a rifling button for button rifling will be impossiblewithout a toolmakers knowledgeskill and workshop
There are some deactivated barrels on the market where only the chamber is welded shut and some short distance forward the chamber are some holes drilled through If cutoff the remainder of the barrel can be rechambered
December 2nd 2008 1050 PMKaydon
httpwwwlindsaybkscombks6rifleindexhtml
I have not been able to find a copy floating about the web Itd be a good find if someone did
httpfindarticlescomparticlesmi_m0BQYis_12_47ai_79586229
httpwwwriflebarrelscomarticlesbarrel_makingmaking_rifle_barrelhtm
Material info
httpammtiacalionsciencecompdfAMPQ8_4ART08pdf
httpoaidticmiloaioaiverb=getRecordampmetadataPrefix=htmlampidentifier=AD0774828
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification gt Rebarreling the SKS
View Full Version Rebarreling the SKS
May 19th 2008 1218 AMfile
I had an idea based on something I saw on Weaponeer not long ago It will remain theoretical only until I can afford to do this
Basically taking an SKS and rebarreling it to a better caliber
Now the SKS is a very good rifle sturdy and reasonably accurate Its only major drawbacks are low mag capacity(easily remedied with a dremel and other tools to make it work with AK mags) and poor caliber
762x39mm is not a very good performer Its mediocre in all aspects Some calibers(like 65 Grendel) seem like theyd be a much better thing for it Most of the accuracy problems and limited range are from thecaliber the SKS uses So why not replace the barrel with one of a better caliber and modify the mag slightly to accommodate the slightly longer rounds
On the Yugo SKS the barrel is threaded in and has flats on it for a wrench There are companies out there that produce custom 65 Grendel barrels Someone with a lathe could do the same thing from a barrelblank Its just a matter of copying the barrel or possibly changing the length of it for better performance
The magazine is just a hair too short but that can be changed by either making a new one or bending the front part of it out(I think)
The spring in the gas system might need to be changed out as well but Im not sure
What do yall think
May 19th 2008 0443 AMtomu
Just sapping the barrel will not do the trick there have to be changes made to the system especially the bolt (boltface exctractor bolt travel distance)
E g the rim diameter of the 65 Grendel is smaller than that of the 762x39 and its overall lenght is 17 mm longer
May 19th 2008 0457 AMfile
I didnt know if the bolt face would have had to be modified
I know about the overall length thats why the mag needs to be modified Aside from that there is enough space in the stroke of the action to accommodate it The only major issue is the bolt face
I know there have been rebarrelings in 556 that required a new bolt(obviously) and those function pretty well
May 19th 2008 0916 AM486
50 Beowulf has the same rim size as 762x39 and with slight magazine modifications it should work or make an AR-15 magazine conversion because the standard magazine would only hold 2-3 rounds You willalso need to mess with the gas port size but that is relatively easy It seems the OAL [over all length] is just fine at 219 for 762x39 and 2110 [for most loads] for the 50 Beowulf
May 19th 2008 0301 PMHitech_Hillbilly
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How is the 762x39 mediocre in all aspects It is currently the most widely used cartridge in the world and has one of the better reputations of in use calibers Are you basing your opinion off of its effectivenessagainst personal armor Off of reliability as a man stopping round Its reliability
While I am all for finding a better round not sure if I would be worried about the 762x39 i would be more interested in switching calibers if I was shooting a 556 or similar varmint type round
The SKS also does not lend itself to a caliber change as readily as some other platforms Have you thought of trying an AR-15 style rifle or maybe going for an AK-74 style if you prefer that type of platform Notsaying you cant re-caliber but you need to take the position and size of the gas port into account on the SKS You may end up having to machine several parts from scratch to get something like what you describeto work
May 20th 2008 0139 AMfile
The 762x39 is only used by the Czech Republic anymore if I remember right(in their VZ-58 rifle) It does not lend itself well to accuracy due to its rainbow trajectory It is also not a very good manstoppercompared to other modern rounds(it does not tumble expand or fragment in the body) It pales in comparison(in man stopping ability and raw tissue damage) to the 556 or the 545
The SKS does not lend itself as easily to caliber change as the AR platform but I have a thing for it It is one of the few rifles out there that fits me Its also cheap compared to the AR or even the AK(the daysof the 380$ AK are gone)
486 has a good idea though If the pressures arent too much for the system to handle 50 Beowulf might be worth considering
The purpose for such a project is to make the SKS better suited to modern use
May 20th 2008 0501 AMtomu
As you can see the extractor of the SKS is a semi circle enveloping the cartridge rim which fascilitates a secure grip as well as guidance of the cartrodge rim
Unfortunately the cartridge rim of the 762x39 is 1130 mm and the rim of the 65 Grendel is 1120 mm This might very well lead to extraction problems especially with semiautomatic fire
I dont have access to SKS right now but you might get away with just using a modified extractor as if IIRC the bolt face itself is plane It might be even as simple as soldering a steel shim to the curvature of theextractor
Anway the bolt of the SKS is a straightforward milling job so any good machinist with a mill can duplicate one
May 20th 2008 0555 AMfile
Even without a mill(I have none) an SKS bolt wouldnt be hard to fab I think that it might be possible to fabricate a new extractor or mod the original one
As was mentioned before about the 50 beowulf I did some looking up and its rim is supposed to be compatible with both the 65 Grendel and the 762x39 so maybe it wont be as much of a problem for the 65 toextract Its something that would be worth seeing how good a grip it gets is
Unfortunately I do not have a piece of 65 brass or Id see right now
May 20th 2008 1043 AMHitech_Hillbilly
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Hate to disagree but the 556 is not known as a manstopper round That is why SOCOM is helped in the development of the 68 SPC and tried to get it approved I happen to work with someone who just got backfrom Iraq and has also seen combat in Bosnia and he said the M14 in 762x51 is making a dramatic comeback due to its increased stopping power When he got back from Iraq he sold his AR-15 and bought aSpringfield M1A
And with the AK-47 being the most widely used Assault rifle in the world (still) I dont believe that your assertion that only the Czech still use it is correct
May 20th 2008 1110 AMfile
Within its practical range the 556 is extremely effective Its problem is that when fired from short barrels it is not able to fragment beyond short ranges When that happens it is nothing but an ice pick Youcant expect such a small and light round to be effective when fired from a 11 or 14 barrel
All the nations which employed the 762x39 aside from the Czech Republic(maybe Slovakia but I doubt it) have switched to superior rounds like 545 Even China has a new round
The AKM-47 is so popular because the Russkies made a ton of them and sold off most of what they had when they switched to the AKM-74 That means that there are a lot of guns out there which are cheap enoughfor the dirt poor guerrillas of X country to purchase
But lets not get into a caliber pissing match because the 762x39 vs 556x45 debate has been going on for decades and will go on until they no longer exist
May 21st 2008 1127 AMHitech_Hillbilly
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I agree lets not get into a caliber pissing match I happen to own rifles in both calibers (AR-15 SKS and AK-47) and believe each to have its own pros and cons But my point is that you also need to provideexamples for statements when you make such broad statements as mediocre in all aspects Such overly broad statements have no place on a Science based board such as this without any supporting evidence
How is it mediocre Do people not die when they are shot with it Is it notorious for jamming Is it widely considered inaccurate If it is mediocre because it is not the main cartridge in official use by its country oforigin does that also make the same true of the 30-06 and 308 If you would put forth some type of arguable facts maybe you could support such a conclusion but for now you are just appearing uninformed
Lets change the target of your scorn to something else for a moment Lets say you had stated that you wanted to learn to make Semtex because C4 is mediocre in all aspects Im sure several members of this
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board would ask you what you based that conclusion on Now would I agree that each of the aforementioned explosives has its own properties which would cause some to prefer one over the other Of course Butboth will blow the shit out of something so neither are ineffectual nor mediocre If you would please list what about the 762 round causes it to be mediocre in your opinion maybe I could see from what you arebasing your opinion
And thats not the only problem with your original post Lets take a look at the basic premise of your original post You want to re-caliber a SKS Why Its current caliber is mediocre and not a good performerSo without more info I have to speculate that the basis in your logic is flawed The SKS is a 60+ year old design It utilizes a tilt bolt locking design which is not as secure as breach lug locking You offer noformula or postulates on what cartridge to use or what the pressures the SKS design is capable of handling Im sure it would be kewl to mount an Abrams 120 mm main gun on a WWII era Sherman tank but ifyou dont understand the pressures and forces involved youre going to end up destroying something other than the intended target Same scenario here
What is the pressure curve of the 50 Beowulf While I do believe that the action of an SKS could handle that cartridge what adjustments need to be made to the gas system While it is possible to re-barrel or re-caliber the Simonov design parts are not in abundance How much will it cost to do the work you are talking about Would it be a better decision financially to make some other type of weapon for which the caliberyou want is already designed for Would it be easier from an engineering standpoint to modify a different base weapon
Most improvised weapons are made for low pressure calibers If they call for high pressure calibers they are normally some type of single shot design The mathematics for semi-auto weapon systems arecomplex Of the equation E = 12mv2 for kinetic energy only about 30 of the energy gets transfered to the actual bullet Almost 20 of the energy gets transfered to gas pressure with the rest going to heat(case barrel gas and bullet) And this total energy is not transfered in a flat line Each caliber and powder generate their own energy curve And those curves can change based on cartridge material and bulletweight And that is just some of the variables
Just because the forum has added a firearms section doesnt mean that its high standards are completely thrown out the window Provide some basis for your arguments some facts or at least some arguableconclusions Most of your other posts do include such facts plus some logical deductions All Im asking is that you do a little research and come up with some supportable reasons for your postulate This is aScience based forum (whether that be chemistry mechanical geopolitical etc) after all
May 21st 2008 0338 PMfile
I did do some looking into the cost of such a build It comes out to 500$ for the 65 I havent run the costs of doing one in 50 Beowulf yet though That would put the gun complete at just under what a cheap ARwould cost
As for dealing with chamber pressure I was unable to find the max pressure of the 50 but for 65 its 50000 psi which puts it very close to the 762x39 The maximum load pressure is 52080 So it should bemore than able to handle the pressure given that most loads for the calibers are lower than that max
Why do I feel that the 762x39 is mediocre It does not fragment expand or tumble(only FMJ will be considered in this example because its obvious what soft point and hollow point will do) while inside the bodyIt does not create a large permanent or temporary cavity compared to other rounds The round also tends to overpenetrate unless used with HP or SP Its saving grace is that it feeds very well and extracts verywell due to its case design Yes such a round can blow the shit out of someone But other calibers can do it better(which is my premise for such a build)
May 21st 2008 0407 PMHitech_Hillbilly
File
Thank you With that I can at least see what you are basing your opinion off of While I dont believe I necessarily agree with all of your conclusions on the various rounds we can agree to disagree Your thoughtprocess is defined and will allow others to make informed judgments based off of the basis for your conclusion
Your cost estimate appears to be in line with what a competent gunsmith or machinist would charge you plus cost of materials and doing some of the work yourself I agree with your assessment that you areapproaching a low end AR-15 variant It may be easier in the long run to just purchase a low end AR already in the caliber you want if you are willing to settle for a 556 or 68 SPC The 65 Grendel or 50 Beowulfmay be cheaper to do yourself From what Ive seen these calibers are rather expensive no matter which route you take
May 22nd 2008 0402 AMfile
It would be least expensive to rebarrel an SKS and that would also be turning an obsolete weapon into a fairly effective DM rifle(if done in 65) Not perfect but passable
One of the things that would be necessary is a modified mag Right now Im thinking of a modified tapco 20 rounder adapted to fit It may be necessary to fabricate an entirely new magazine but Id avoid that ifpossible However if it is necessary to do it would be much better to make one of a design similar to that of the original mag Its feeding system is very well suited to being self-contained and fixed in place but isalso very reliable It would have to be slightly longer and deeper with a slightly different follower
It might be possible to just bend the original mag but that would give me less than ten rounds per
This will all have to wait until I have the money to afford the build though
May 22nd 2008 0933 AM486
You could get an ak mag adapter and remove enough material from that to fit a ar mag in Then get a 65 ar mag [in steel] and braze it into the adapter at the proper height for reliable feeding braze it with the partsout and reassemble when cool It would still be removable [if you get the removable adaptermagazine
May 23rd 2008 0631 PMfile
To my knowledge fitting an AK or AR mag would require filingmilling to the receiver(it is possible just a lot of work) Fitting an AR mag might actually be possible with a little less filingmilling than an AK magthough Im not exactly sure
May 24th 2008 0104 AM486
They make these detachable mags for the SKS they seem to be an AK mag with an adapter welded on They use the original mag pivot pin as a front catch and the floorplate release as the rear catch to hold themagazine in a [somewhat] explanatory picture (httpwwwsurplusbunkercomimagesMAGSKS20BLACKJPG) of a molded plastic one So I assume since the AR magazines dont seem much bigger you justneed to take out the whole internal mag to get it to fit My dad is in a different country so I cant see if it would fit right now but in a few weeks I could test it out
Also for some sort of size comparison [maybe useful] 762x39 fits in AR mags just only 5 rounds or so because of the extreme case taper and I have heard of people getting 223 in AK mags
May 24th 2008 0141 AMfile
To get an AK mag to fit you have to change the cut in the receiver for the mag to fit because it is tapered in the front on the SKS(not actually too different than the low cap mags really) and straight on the AK Ihave mine stripped and am looking at it right now
Luckily the actual hole seems to be large enough to fit the rounds
May 24th 2008 1121 AMTreverSlyFox
Well trying to make an SKS into an SKS M or D model (Detachable AK47 magazines) has been done before though none has resulted in a satisfactory or safe modification
The M amp D model DO NOT have the same receiver yes it looks the same but its NOT The receiver walls of the M amp D model are thicker to accommodate the AK Magazine Butchered SKS receivers even done bya competent machinist wind up being VERY THIN especially in the front where the original SKS magazine tapers And this is where the receiver cracks and Ive seen two that have done so after being modified totake AK mags Granted Ive only seen two SKSs modified like this but that pretty much follows the posts on other boards where this has been discussed and done
As far as the FMJ Military 762x39 not being an effective round I have a few friends whose names are on a wall in Washington DC that would disagree with you if they were still alive And when they took our M-14saway and gave us M-16s mine lasted less than 2 weeks and I finished my tour with an SKS which accounted for 14 of 17 confirmed kills none with the M-16 that I know of
Also dont forget gas operated semi-autos work on Peak Gas Pressure which is NOT the same as Muzzle Velocity but has to do with the speed of the powder burn So unless your magick bullet has the sameburn your going to be modifying the fixed gas system (unless your using a Yugo) to get the rifle to function properly without FTF or FTE problems or battering the rifle apart with over pressure
Either way its been tried before it didnt work But hey good luck to you maybe youll be the lucky one
May 24th 2008 1159 AM486
So unless your magick bullet has the same burn your going to be modifying the fixed gas system (unless your using a Yugo) to get the rifle to function properly without FTF or FTE problems or battering the rifleapart with over pressure
The gas port has to be re-drilled anyways for the new barrel for 65 besides the gas port adjustment should be pretty easy
May 24th 2008 0103 PMfile
As stated by 486 the gas port adjustment should be pretty easy The valve comes right out(on the Yugo model which is what I stated Id be using) and can be tinkered with as needed Obviously starting smalland going larger as needed to get it to feed and eject right Actual pressure curve charts would be best but I havent been able to find them
Trevor what nationality were the SKSs youve seen fail due to being butchered The Yugo ones are already beefier than the regular ones which is why I mentioned going with those in my first post I also wouldrather not have to modify the receiver hence my being big on modifying or copying the original mag design
Im not here to start a caliber pissing match either
May 25th 2008 0807 AMTreverSlyFox
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Of the two I saw one was a Chinese Mil-Surp and the other was a Norinco (Norincos arent Mil-Surp but they are Mil Spec) Ive never read anyone trying to modify a Yugo as yet Sorry I missed the part in youpost about using a Yugo my mistake Ive never looked over a Yugo closely mostly because I never cared for their un-chromed barrel and chamber and the funky grenade launcher on them
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Sorry if I came off as wanting to start a pissing match on 762x39 Its just that there is so much BS put out about the round by people that have never used the round in combat I have and know what it will dowithin its design parameters as a Military round coupled with a totally reliable weapon system like the SKS or AK-47
The terminal ballistics were greatly improved by the Russians with the 8M1 - 8M3 effect bullet but came at the time 762x39 was being phased out and the 545 was being brought in service so it was never fieldedas a service round Now its only available in Silver Bear Ammo if you can find it I stashed away 5000 rounds of it when it was $85 a 1000 rnd case several years ago now if it can be found its well over $200 acase I havent seen any for sale in a year or more I have the feeling its gone the way just as the Chinese steel core did never to be seen again
I can understand the want of a little more power in a carbine size action but then I always look at it from a Military stand point Cost of ammo availability or if there is already a Military weapon that alreadyachieves the same thing Which is probably why out of 15 or so weapons I own 10 or 12 are Military and the first ones Id grab in an emergency Each one is set up with web gear and a full combat load out of ammofor those Just-in-Case times
Sorry if I come off rough at times Im an old fart and pretty set in my ways and thinking at 60
May 25th 2008 0840 AMfile
No offense taken
The Yugo guns are considerably beefed up compared to their Russian or Chinese counterparts Thats because Yugoslavian ammunition was hotter than other standard production ammo The only AK mag fedmodified ones Ive seen are Yugos(because theyre the cheapest right now)
I havent been able to find any of the 8M3 stuff wish I could though Sounds pretty good if extremely rare
The primary desire for having the 65 would be to give the SKS more legs as well as more power 65 Grendel out of a 20 barrel is good out a very long ways(I forget exactly how far but out of a 24 its good past1000 yards) That coupled with a very good custom barrel would be able to turn the SKS into a modern battle rifle or possibly DM rifle The SKS has potential for excellence you have probably seen that yourself itjust needs to have that fulfilled
To my knowledge there are few firearms out there in that caliber and those that are out there are expensive Ammo cost for Wolf Gold(not the best but still passable) isnt too much more than 762x39 per caseOnce I get into handloading that will drop costs even more especially considering that 65x39 can be formed from 762x39 brass cases
May 26th 2008 0905 PMTreverSlyFox
File
Your project really piqued my interest and I spent a few hours checking out the 65mm Grendel on the web While the project seems VERY doable in a Yugo SKS there does seem to be a couple problems in theammo department
True 65mm Grendel is a straight walled case while 762x39mm is a tapered wall case And to reform 762x39mm into 65mm Grendel cases is quite a project as a bulge will form just below the shoulder of the 762x39mmcase when full length resized While this can be dealt w it h by turning its one more step added to the process Plus the new formed case has to be fire formed as a final step and you still don t have a True 65mm Grendel case
The 65mm Grendel takes a Small Rifle Primer while the 762x39mm takes a Large Rifle Primer which does and will affect performance which seems to be the large rifle primer blowing powder and bullet down the bore before the powder ignites Why this happens w it h a straight walled case and not to a tapered w all case is beyond me
So you have a choice to make before you chamber the new barrel Either chamber it for 65mm Grendel or chamber it for 65x39mm The 65x39mm is just a necked down 762x39mm case and since it s just necked down youdon t have the problems with full lengt h resizing and the subsequent bulge turning and fire for ming in trying to go to a str aight w alled Grendel case The 65x39mm suffers a little in the velocity department compared to the trueGrendel but we re talking less than 100fps out of a 24 barrel so I don t see it as a real problem
If you decide to go the true Grendel way you re looking at buying cases from Alexander Arms or Lapua Though the Lapua is considered a better case the price difference is about $28 per one hundred cases AA is about $64 per100 and Lapua runs about $92 per 100
If it were me I think I d just suck up the 100fps velocity difference and go with the 65x39mm and neck down 762x39mm cases I think you d have fewer problems in feeding no change to the magazine st ill feed it from str ipperclips and cheap but tough Military cases to work from
While you ll never have a true MBR since you re not firing a full size military cartridge I think you d have a kick ass DMR in a carbine size package with a good set of optics Midway sells the Choate Weaver-Style Scope Mount forthe SKS (item 435-151) though you ll have to dr ill and tap the r eceiver for it But it appears t o be a rock solid steel mount that w on t int erfere w it h disassembly and cleaning from what I can see of it Midway has it on sale rightnow at $30 rather than the normal $3899 so you may want to look int o it With a set of quick change rings you could pop off the scope if it took a dump and be back to the original iron sights which you can t do with a scout mount and a LER scope Though this has disadvantages also
The scope mount will kill the use of stripper clips for reload Though you could turn the mount around so it off set to the left and retain feeding from stripper clips and add a cheek pad t o the stock Same thing they did with the M-1 Gar and M odel C sniper rifle and having the benefit of ret aining the use of t he Iron sights without removing the scope
While I doubt you ll get the 1198 group at 600 yards the true Grendel gets with a modified semi-auto SKS I don t see any reason you couldn t get say 3 MOA at 600 yards which should put you into Minute-of-Bad-Guy out to 900 -1000 yards with 65x39mm O ver all from the litt le investigation I ve done the project seems doable and kick ass if you stay in the 65x39mm and not try to go for a true 65mm Grendel package
The change over to AK-47 mags would be dependent on if the Yugo can handle the cuts to the receiver wall without compromising the strength of the receiver While this would eliminate the need to feed it fromstripper clips and an off set scope It will also not allow you to get as close to the ground in the prone position with a 30 or 40 round mag sticking out the bottom of the rifle Gain some lose some so you have tochoose what you want and how youll use the rifle to make the choice
No matter what you choose please keep us updated on the project Im very interested in how it turns out
May 26th 2008 1039 PMfile
Thanks for the suggestion of 65x39mm and just using that As far as a scope mount if it interferes with stripper clips isnt much of an issue if its a DM rifle but it would be a plus I remember seeing a mount outthere that was a reproduction of the issue scope mount for it(which accommodated the PU scope and PSOP scope) and those did allow for stripper clip use
65x39 is definitely the way to go in the price area I cant afford to feed something that is $92 a case but I should be able to afford to neck down 762 brass
This is a long term project Itll be a while before I save up enough to start the build Should turn out well though
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The Explosives and W eapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n gt 22LR magazine DIY
View Full Version 22LR magazine DIY
May 21st 20 08 113 3 AMemogravetegravenculo
Im looking for dim entions about a 22LR m agazine (AR-7 l ike) Anyone can help m e Thanks
May 21st 20 08 032 4 PMtomu
Search for Bill Holm es Home W orkshop Guns for Defense and Resistance The 22 Machine Pistol scanned copies arefloating around
May 22nd 2008 0223 AMemogravetegravenculo
I read the book and the dimentions Holmes gives in it are lets say they could be a l ittle betterIve com pared them with a 22LR dumm y and the length is OK BUT they are too large
May 22nd 2008 0348 AMfile
Your best bet is to make a cardboard m ockup first of whatever it is you do
The AR-7s m ag isnt the best and is responsible for m ost of its reliability problem s But give it a shot anyway and see
May 22nd 2008 0636 AMemogravetegravenculo
I know that the m ain feed pro blem in this rifle is a mag azine issue thats why I want to m ake the magazines by myself but Im iss how wid e they shoul be
May 22nd 2008 0944 AMtomu
The base diameter of a 22 lr is 706 mm so make it a t least 72 and m ax 73 m m inside For th e length go for about 2560m m to about 2570 m m overall length of the 22 lr is 2540 mm Just bend a sm all proto type and feel how cartridg es feed
May 23rd 2008 0255 AMemogravetegravenculo
The base diameter of a 22 lr is 706 mm so make it a t least 72 and m ax 73 m m inside For th e length go for about 2560m m to about 2570 m m overall length of the 22 lr is 2540 mm Just bend a sm all proto type and feel how cartridg es feed
Thank you Il l try with these measures
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The Explosives and W eapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n gt vz58 full autoconversion
View Full Version vz58 full auto conversion
August 4th 2008 0506 AMMarxist
Hello everyone as I searched som e forums it appears that m any people have the civil ian version of this a ssault rifle (forsom e reason called subm achinegun - samopa l) but I havent find any way to return it to its original look (well I dont haveany firearms) httpvz58webparkczobrazky58popisjpg (its schem e but in czech) I read that it is semi-autom atizedthanks to a block of iron welded into place of auto parts This is a czech site with Sa-58 parts I found httpwwwzelenysportczscriptszboziphpKID=14 are any of them usable Thanks for your tim e
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Dont forget to capitalize the letter I when referring to yourself - The_Duke
August 6th 2008 0425 AM486
There is a hole next to the ejector in the upper receiver which has a sear in it that is needed for FA operation [also for safesem i-auto] in the usa it is rem oved It m ay be left in in European areas though The selector for full auto has 2 notches in itthe sem i one has one I cant find a picture now If you have the safety sear then you only need the full auto selector and cancreate one by cutting a new [second] notch in it Searching for a FAL or L1A1 would net tons more results for you
August 7th 2008 0940 AM486
Since I have no edit button disregard the above post you said VZ 58 and SA-58 i assum ed they were interchangeable andonly went from mem ory O ne is a AK variant the other a FAL variant The SA-58 parts wont fit on your gun
August 8th 2008 0848 AMiHME
VZ 58 is IIRC a comp letely different gun com pared to ak-47 they look the same but the vz 58 m ags dont f it the ak and viseversaThe VZ 58 has its own mechanism thats nothing like AK
August 8th 2008 1022 AMfestergrump
Thats not to m ention that the receivers are m achined from a chunk of steel rather than a stam ped piece o f sheetm etal l ikethe AKM Whole different ball of wax which makes it m uch m ore intense of a from scratch build of the receiver
VZ receivers can be bought (if youre willing to register it) but the price is much higher than that of an AKM reciever blank (VZkits are stil l very cheap however and readily available)
One thing that I always thought was ra ther strange is th at the VZ is allowed in Canuckistan while the AKM is banned thoughthey outwardly look very similar confused
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The Explosives and W eapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n gt Simple revolver de signaka the Manual Revolver
View Full Version Simple revolver design aka the Manual Revolver
October 2nd 2008 0406 PMiHME
On the Hyp othetically how can som eone with lim ited tools make am munition fro m scratch thread the idea of a m anuallyrotated revolver cam e upW ell I drew up som e crude prints for it They are m ainly to show the idea I encourage m em bers to mak e better onesThe idea is to create a sim ple m ulti sh ot capab le firearm
If one has a very good dril l press the cylinder could be bored with it
I recomm end studying JACO Designs they have very sim ple trig ger system sAnd they cou ld be adapted to f it our needs
Now that I have the thread started Ill draw som e prints
Plea se dont crucify m e for m y bad dra wings Im no graphic artist o
October 4th 2008 0905 PMtomu
Actually a very good idea A quite simple design with a the neccassary cylinder lockingindexing m echanism under the barre lVery sim ple SA-Trigger
If you are carefully in laying out the cylinder bo ringscham bers this could be easily done with basic tools
IIR C there were som e pictures of a hom emade sim ple handturned revolver l ike this m ade by a russian guy som e where on theweb unfortunately I cant find the link nor the photos on my PC
October 8th 2008 0727 PMa3990918
Here is a plan from Paladin Press for a revolver-knife that is I believe basically the sam e as you are describing The cylinderis ro tated by hand after each shot and is of a single action design Of course this could be m odified to a standard h andgunconfiguration
httprapidsharecom files152189745ebook_-_Paladin_Press_Series_on_Improvised_Firearms_-_The_Revolver_Kn ifepdf
No Pass
October 8th 2008 0822 PMHirudinea
If your want to m ake a revolver with sim ple too ls do you think it would be possible to adapt a good quality Cap Pistolrevo lver to fire low po wer rounds repla ce the barrel and the cylinder with a barrel and cylin der that can take the pressure an ddesign somthing to keep the rounds in the cham ber and the trigger and rotary m echanism from the cap pistol MIGHT besufficent to work as a real gun (Or it might blow your hand off but either way it would do som thing youed never forget)
October 8th 2008 1047 PMCobalt45
The problem is the frame is what ties the cylinder to the barrel IMHO b y the tim e you were done you will have basically builtthe gun from the ground up anyway
October 10th 2008 0234 AMa3990918
Som e m ore hom emade f irearm s plans Revolvers Automatics Single Shot etc etc
httprapidsharecom fi les139190865Autom atic_and_Concealable_Firearms_Design_Book_VOL 1rar
httprapidsharecom fi les139190866Autom atic_and_Concealable_Firearms_Design_Book_VOL 2rar
httprapidsharecom fi les139190867Autom atic_and_Concealable_Firearms_Design_Book_VOL 3rar
Password for all 3 is a3990918
October 10th 2008 0147 PMiHME
Thank you a3990918 but I already have those Fun to read but devoid of real instructions I l l dig m ore into making the printsIll also try to m ake a scale cardboard model to get the feel of what Im aim ing at
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October 10th 2008 0919 PMHirudinea
The problem is the frame is what ties the cylinder to the barrel IMHO b y the tim e you were done you will have basically builtthe gun from the ground up anyway
I suppose so but the idea was if your going to build a zip gun then adapting a cap pistol would sim ply give you a repeatingweapon for a bout the same am ount of effort
October 13th 2008 1037 AMTreverSlyFox
If your want to m ake a revolver with sim ple too ls do you think it would be possible to adapt a good quality Cap Pistolrevo lver to fire low po wer rounds repla ce the barrel and the cylinder with a barrel and cylin der that can take the pressure an ddesign some thing to keep the rounds in the cham ber and the trigger an d rotary m echanism from the cap pistol MIGHT besufficient to work as a real gun (Or it m ight blow your h and off but either way it would do something youd never forget)
There are conversion cylinders for som e of the better cap amp ball revolvers such as the Ruger Old Army Theyre designed forthe Cowboy low power loads and they cost between $2 00 - $30 0 With the reputation of the R uger Ill bet it will take fullpower loads without a hitch in 45LC
October 15th 2008 0713 PMHirudinea
There are conversion cylinders for som e of the better cap amp ball revolvers such as the Ruger Old Army Theyre designed forthe Cowboy low power loads and they cost between $2 00 - $30 0 With the reputation of the R uger Ill bet it will take fullpower loads without a hitch in 45LC
Do cap and ball revolvers need a licence in the States (If not that would be the way to go )
October 15th 2008 0724 PMfestergrump
The fedgov does not consider them to be firearms so theyll ship right to your door no FFL required or any kind of licensing Local laws may differ som ewhat thoug h so while youre definitely able to buy one shipped right to you easily carrying itlega lly may be problematic in some areas IIRC Most states tend to look at them as firearms in regards to carrying them onyour person
PS It kind of goes without saying if you already have one revo lver in your possession to use as a model and the neededm achine tools to duplicate parts you can pum p out as m any com pleted revolvers as you dare You dont have to be anengineer to duplicate what already works well
The hardest part would be the cylinder IMHO a nd if you have a m odel cylinder and a good rotary indexing attachm ent for yourdrillpress ha lf the battle is already won
Designing a revolver com pletely from scratch is probably going to be m ostly a pain due to the correct throw of the hand torotate the cylinder into proper alignment with the barrel I should think once you finish the cylinder Lots of trial and error withhand length there with much cussing to follow Id im agine With a decent model to m atch exactly O TOH how could you gowrong
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The Explosives and Weapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modification gt Arming The Masses
View Full Version Arming The Masses
October 19th 2008 0633 AM3287
As many here likely know in World War II the United States produced a very crude single-shot pistol the Liberator in hugenumbers to drop behind enemy lines to arm the subjects of Nazi occupation and give them a fighting chance
The Israelis armed their people with machine guns manufactured with near-primitive technologies not even having access tofull machine shops in many cases
In the modern day weve better technology and more available materials for such a task making the effectiveness greaterand the cost lower
What sort of firearm design would allow for a concealable reliable effective and hopefully more ergonomic modern LiberatorConsider that the national military probably would not do something like this again and so it would have to be a privateendeavor
October 19th 2008 1000 AMJoxer
Would you trust your life to a cheaply made firearm
There are any number of inexpensive and more effective firearms than a cheap POS liberator type pistol If you want tohave hand-out weapons SKSs and Mosin Nagants Mausers etc are inexpensive and more effective
We dont need to arm the masses The masses are alread armedWe need people that will fight with the arms they already have
October 19th 2008 0442 PM3287
Many places around the US are disarmed California large cities across the span the entire northeast
In particular Im considering a handgun-style armament since that would be most useful in a personal-defense context Imunfortunately too skeptical to believe that anything better can be hoped for People wont want to fight a war
To answer your question Id trust my life to a cheap handgun when facing someone armed before Id trust my life to my barehands
October 19th 2008 0535 PMrangegal
I think a repeating air rifle similar to the ones used by napoleons troops would be a good liberator since they are not truefirearms and therefore are not restricted like firearms are at least in America land of some of the free-est people left fornow For another matter nobody will ever be able to control the ammo since its just air and lead What are they going to doPut a tax on fishing weights and air compressors Once you have a bullet mold and an air pump your all set
httpwwwbeemansnetAustrian20airgunshtm
Big bore air rifles can be pretty effective especially since they have zero muzzle flash and a reduced report compared tofirearms Those old Austrian air rifles could put about 600-800 fps into a ~40 cal bullet not bad considering it runs on airand it was invented 200 years ago
Heres a reinvented version made by an Austrian bicycle maker during WW2 to fight then NazishttpwwwbeemansnetimagesRA5--Austrian-Partisan-Airgjpg
Those San-Yang big bore hunting air rifles are pretty sick too although quite expensivehttpwwwairgundepotcombig-bore-articlehtml
And then theres wwwfullyautomaticairguncom too bad thats only 22 cal It gives you an idea what kind of things can bedone with CO2 though
Another thing to look to for inspiration would be the new propane powered paint ball gun by Tippman Would a gun that runson propane be considered a firearm or would it just be another air gun I think thats where the best ideas for a powerfulfreedom fighting gun will be found BUT BACK OFF its my idea
One way or another I think non-firearm weapons would offer great possibilities for a liberator Of course theres just nosubstitute for those of you that already own full auto assault rifles
October 19th 2008 0536 PMfestergrump
People wont want to fight a war
Id have to agree with you on that statement If I had to guess less than 25 of the people who ARE armed would likelynever use them in warfare against an oppressive government regardless of whether they put MOLONE LABE in their sigline ornot rolleyes
Even Commyfornians are not totally disarmed yet though nor are those in the NE section of the USSA yet Its those whohave a hard time getting them legally that have a better appreciation for them I think
In the event that people will fight and have no gun with which to do so IMHO the best thing to arm them with would be slam-fire shotguns The mass production capabilities are the best around since the weapon is so piss-poor simple to find parts foron the scrounge and to put together in reliable working order Two lengths of steel tubing (which one slides into anotherfreely) an endcap a screw or nail as a firing pin and whatever you can make a few pistol grips with One man should be ableto make several dozens a day honestly
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Even old shotgun husks can be reloaded relatively easily if ammo even dries up (read no longer allowed for civilians topossess) Strike-anywhere match head primers BP paper wadding and use whatever you like for shot (blunderbuss style)
October 19th 2008 0605 PM3287
Well my asking serves two purposes
One in the event that whichever Marxist takes office in January decides to try to disarm people I want to monkeywrench thatfucker into an ulcer-driven early grave Id be happy to stand in a tyrants way
Two Im a firm believer in the philosophy that an armed society is a polite society I think the only way to be free is to bewell-armed - and I dont mean in the sense of the number of arms versus the number of people but in terms of theproliferation of arms Id like to see as author L Neil Smith puts it every man woman and responsible child armed insome way If I can do my part in making it happen I will truly feel like I contributed something of worth to society
October 19th 2008 0758 PMJoxer
Many places around the US are disarmed California large cities across the span the entire northeast
They arent disarmed Not yet anyway
You can search out Lutys improvised weapons and improvised ammo Its here somewhere because I downloaded it Checkthe rapidshare links thread
There are plans for the Caselman Air machine gun here too IIRC it uses 32 bulletsIt would be a very ambitious project though
I look at it this way Time is money Id personally rather buy a weapon than build oneBut having this info available is a Good Thing
If I had to guess less than 25 of the people who ARE armed would likely never use them in warfare against an oppressivegovernment
I assume you mean lt 25 would use them OK that is still a very large numberId be thrilled if 10 showed up In my opinion even 1 could get the job done
October 19th 2008 0836 PM3287
Revolution is a messy thing and rarely pleasing in its outcome I am more concerned with improving society by helping goodold Joe the Plumber since he seems to be the blue-collar star-of-the-moment protect himself when the law would have hadhim murdered
October 19th 2008 0839 PMfestergrump
Yeah Joxer thats what I meant I also believe you that 1 could do the job with good communication (within and withoutthose laying life down for liberty) In fact a truthful form of media to the people is probably every bit as important as weaponsin such a war A civilian peoples who think YOU are the bad guy for resisting the government will always opt for your selloutand freedom can never win But thats a point all its own 10 armed would be much better than 1 and everyone I seeonline with MOLON LABE in their sigline even better than that I think I will NOT count on those people however judging bytheir many liberal idealisms and thoughts put to posts on forums elsewhere
An armed society is a polite society Ive held that same opinion for many many years now ) The thing is it has to becommon knowledge that the society is well armed for this to work as well as it could as in legally armed with a majority (orunknown percentage) that be so armed always What you seem to be talking about is a different matter altogether what withthe Liberator pistols origin and standing in a tyrants way mentioned
I offered the idea of the slam-fire shotgun because it meets the criteria presented in the OP The same would pretty muchapply for just about any zipgun type contraption you could think of Build the weapon around whatever ammo you might haveon hand or alternatively whatever you might take off the end recipient of such a weapon after heshe has been renderedsafe (dead)
Several copies of Zips Pipes and Pens are floating about the internet (and the FTP IIRC) Theres a pretty good source ofideas though youll have to improvise just a bit There are no plans in the book that I remember But youll only need touse what weapon you make once to acquire a better weapon and ammo right The choice of targets is probably moreimportant than most factors of the original weapon itself
Look to prison as a good idea of how just people who are so strictly forbidden to have weapons make or obtain them yethave them they do Prison is the most safe (rolleyes) society youll ever see with absolute and total control over what thepopulation is allowed or disallowed Yet every prison is literally riddled with firearms and other weapons Thats all the proofanyone should need that making such things illegal does absolutely nothing to those that want or need them for protectionor otherwise though the antis continue with their insane ideas that banning something makes it vanish from the world forever
I rest fairly well at night knowing that no matter what they do to us we will be able to counteract with some ingenuity and gutsIts the latter many cannot seem to find no matter how hard they look these days
On somewhat of an aside preventative medicine would be in order here at this point anyway Buy what you can while you canand continue to form ideas about what to do when you cant BP revolvers ship right to your door in the USSA (as of now) andtheres no restriction on them whatsoever within the fedgov regulations (local regs may differ legally but having them shippedisnt a problem) Same with any BP gun inline rifle rock-lock percussion lock etc
Buy reloading supplies in abundance (ships to your door in the US) and brass or hulls various chems and powders etc Hewho is prepared is better off than he who hasnt even given the slightest thought towards a future without (which is pretty much99 of the sheeple Im afraid)
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October 20th 2008 0518 AM3287
Im certain that they are restricted in my locale
Thats another part of my curiosity I can acquire rifles and shotguns but as it stands I can not acquire handguns
October 23rd 2008 0627 AMAlexires
Just remember that you guys arent the only ones in this mess There are other countries out there in the world and a lot ofthe civilised ones are not armed So dont just reject an idea because you could buy something better Many of us cant dothat
October 23rd 2008 0424 PM-=HeX=-
Ah I have an idea for a weapon that is one shot mass produced Get some steel tubing a projectile to fit an igniter strongEpoxy wires and Epoxy resin sticks Also some propellant of choice and wadding Insert igniter into one end of pipe 1 in atleast and seal it in completely with the Epoxy The seal should be at least 34 deep
Wire it up to a battery and a switch and mold Epoxy all around this to make the guns frame and handle Have the triggerswitch positioned like a firearm trigger Allow Epoxy to cure and put in propellant wadding and projectile like with muzzleloader
When trigger is pulled the igniter ignites the propellant which does its jobIt can also easily be made in a multi barrel configfor multiple shots
This is cheap and easy to mass produce
October 23rd 2008 0709 PMKilly
Ah I have an idea for a weapon that is one shot mass produced Get some steel tubing a projectile to fit an igniter strongEpoxy wires and Epoxy resin sticks Also some propellant of choice and wadding Insert igniter into one end of pipe 1 in atleast and seal it in completely with the Epoxy The seal should be at least 34 deep
Wire it up to a battery and a switch and mold Epoxy all around this to make the guns frame and handle Have the triggerswitch positioned like a firearm trigger Allow Epoxy to cure and put in propellant wadding and projectile like with muzzleloader
When trigger is pulled the igniter ignites the propellant which does its jobIt can also easily be made in a multi barrel configfor multiple shots
This is cheap and easy to mass produce
Interesting idea did you made it and test it I highly doubt anybody would produce and carry or even use such electrical thingWould it look something like this httpimg234imageshackusimg2349672fluchtgewehrie5thjpg (httpimg234imageshackusmyphpimage=fluchtgewehrie5jpg)httpimg234imageshackusimagesthpixgif (httpgimageshackusthpixphp)
Why arming the masses (the term masses reminds me on marxist pamphlets) would be neccesity to any goverment whenmostly they are afraid of their own armed people not their outer enemy
Today metalworking industry in any country is so developed that some factories could easily produce cheap and simple SMGsin great numbers in small time to arm their masses
October 23rd 2008 0824 PMcrazywhiteguy
With the technology we have today I think the best thing would be to make a simple long recoil action semi-auto pistol with a4 inch barrel Most of the weapon is made by simply stamping out the internals from 18 or 316 plate cutting the lowerreceiver from 14 inch plate and the upper receiver from a single seamless tube The only relatively difficult part is the boltthat can be made by a single tool on a lathe Nothing on the weapon is too complex to be stamped out by the thousand
This can all be done with a milling machine In quick processes and very little cost for materials This is basically how the Stenwas made The version I am imagining is a longer recoil that will allow for a very small gun width because you dont have asmuch issue with ejecting spent cartridges A fair sized shop could make these without any trouble at all They would be cheapand could use the cheapest available ammunition
A crate of these could be handed out to resistance groups that are fighting your enemy A crate of cheap ammo would also behanded out with the guns 60 rounds per weapon is enough to do anything they hope to accomplish even with spray and praytactics
October 25th 2008 1143 PM3287
I dont know if anyone goofy enough to spray and pray should even be allowed to touch a gun especially when the risingcost and declining availability of ammunition is considered Gun banners have wizened up a lot over the past fifteen yearsonly the stupid ones worry about banning (easy-to-make) guns Now theyre going after (comparatively more difficult-to-make) ammunition
October 26th 2008 0117 AMcrazywhiteguy
By saying Spray and pray I didnt mean shooting without looking or anything of the sort Its just simple way of saying that thepeople your giving the guns to wont be trained in anything more combat practical than high school physical education teachersIf you give someone a gun like the liberator or something similar all youll be doing is delaying the trained armies fromtaking the zones that your supplying You cant expect 200 people with the liberator pistol to hold off a decently equipped armyfor more than a minimum amount of time Dropping cheap guns to resistance fighters just seems like a effective way to wastethe resources of your enemies
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An example of this is the polish ghettos The Jews didnt have many troops at some points and were quite an annoyance tothe Germans Giving supplies to the resistance fighters will just take your enemys reasources and troops away from fightingyou Everyone on this forum can see the effectiveness of guerrilla warfare
[forgot to think about ammo If the government were the one making the ammo the bulk at which the ammo would be madewould put the costs at next to nothing If arming a resistance movement were a private endeavour one would simply need topurchase in a quantity enough to put the unit cost very low It would be as easy as calling a ammo manufacturer and askingfor a production run of however many crates of ammo They would be willing to seeing as your order would be in the area ofsay 200000 - 300000 rounds of ammunition (60rndsarm 200 arms to a crate) and you would want to supply at least 5000resistance fighters Not to mention self defence weapons for the families and transportation safety and whatnot) But myestimate only applies to a large war type senario without any sort of obvious complications]
October 26th 2008 0127 AMCobalt45
Dropping cheap guns to resistance fighters just seems like a effective way to waste the resources of your enemiesI see thisas a valid tactic and is the exact role of such a weapon IMO
60 rounds per gun is a generous supply considering the intended use I believe the Liberator came wsomething like 10rounds
Might not be spraying but I know Id be praying- in the case of the FP-45 you have a gun that has accuracy measured in feetno rifling a ram-rod to eject the cases and a single-shot to boot(
October 26th 2008 0146 AMcrazywhiteguy
I dont see 60 rounds as generous If you look at a normal firefight involving the Kalashnikov rifle 1 of 10 rounds finds atarget Given the lack of accuracy as well you must allow for them to have 10 - 20 rounds per kill It might make a difference ifyou knew the enviroment In the polish ghettos the maximum distance they ever shot at was about 20 meters mostfirefights happened between supply trucks and the houses surrounding (5m max)
I see this as a valid tactic and is the exact role of such a weapon IMOGreat minds think alike Stupidity is also found ed majoritum Lets hope the first genertic proverb is true )
October 26th 2008 0328 AMfestergrump
The point is missed
The idea of the Liberator pistol was not to arm a bunch of soldiers for a battlefield scenario It was to give citizens somethingconcealable to use against their occupiers long after things had cooled down and the occupying army had grown complacentwith the ritual checking of proper papers etc It was to bring out of concealment at the right time to catch a soldier unaware tokill him at very close range and to acquire the better weapons that he had on his person No more
It was actually a very glorified zipgun Ten rounds were more than ample for this role I think Three would have been enoughwith hopefully two to spare under the right circumstances
The jews allegedly used even cruder implemented weapons to take REAL weapons off the German and Polish soldiers inWarsaw I believe that was the original intent of the Liberator pistol and for that its manufacture was superb at leastcompared to what a ragtag bunch who has no funding or machineshops working legally for any government could manage foranother countrys hopeless peoples
That said three rounds for a zipgun or slam-fire shotty sounds mighty impressive for such a bunch of hopeful patriotsespecially if they may or may not ever choose to use them
October 26th 2008 0653 PMcrazywhiteguy
I might have thought too far into it As much as the machine pistol would be more effective it would also be cumbersome tocarry in any concealed way and still be ready to use at a moments notice I had another idea today Have a sliding block withcylinders for ammo cut into it On the far right on the back would be a set of teeth A clicker would pull the magazine up onenotch and then drop the firing pin on the primer This would give you a 2 -4 shot double action pistol Im going to draw out abasic deign in a moment please bear with me
October 27th 2008 0542 PM486
I had an idea for a improvised weapon to use for the take a enemys weaponammo ideaRed pressure rating copper pipe fits a AA battery pretty well just bore out a piece of iron pipe to 58 to fit the copper pipeinside [for extra strength] then epoxy it inside like they do with 22 LR barrel liners Theres the barrel and projectile as abreech cap you could use an iron pipe cap and I have no idea if homemade black powder will burn fast enough to propel thebattery and use what ever igniter is most easily made maybe a putting a cigarette [that you were smoking when you walkedup] into a flash hole
If you want to have hand-out weapons SKSs and Mosin Nagants Mausers etc are inexpensive and more effective
Mausers and SKSs are pretty expensive lately both around $200-250 if you can find AK parts kits [with the barrels [importingthe barrels was recently outlawed]] they are usually less than $200 then you have $25 for a receiver flat and $10 each formagazines you just need to fold the flat and weld the rails on you dont need to harden it itll just not last as long but bythe time it wears out youll have picked up someone elses gun
October 27th 2008 0657 PMfestergrump
you just need to fold the flat and weld the rails on you dont need to harden it itll just not last as long but by the time itwears out youll have picked up someone elses gun
Bending the flat and welding the lower rails in is the hardest part of the job actually and if you can do those steps correctlywhy not harden the hammer pin holes trigger pin holes and ejector nub while youre at it It takes less than five minutes
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MAAP gas torches cost ~$13 (with an extra bottle) in most places but you can do it without that also
Ive seen cases where someone forgot to harden the ejector and it began to peen badly after two shots It could essentiallylock up a bolt trying to pass over it and take the gun out of the fight
October 28th 2008 0609 AM-=HeX=-
Killy I am currently building that firearm it is the prototype for a two shot self destructing gun which has a frame made fromthe castable plaster incendiary material I am trying to build an entirely Clean firearm which can be destroyed completelyafter use
Over here guns are very hard to obtain legally so the kalashnikov parts kit is out of the question Slam bang firearms are anoption but then you have to obtain ammo Ammo can be obtained from wherever people are shooting only last night I found2 of the 9mm rounds and a shotgun cartridge Maybe iHME has an idea for the Battery gun
October 28th 2008 0528 PMiHME
Well this contraption is rather k3wLish so I would have not posted this unless HeX would have not asked
The idea is simple
We have a 16mm(yes you read right) muzzle loader with a simple trigger mechanismA 1-3mm flash hole is drilled and a short length of fuze is put trough a modified modified fireplace lighter is used as thetrigger to ignite the fuze and thus the propellantFor me this thing is more a toy the flash hole in mine is too big (25mm did not have a smaller bit at hand) so I lose powerthanks for itI also dont have proper propellant for it
But with all its flaws It is damn simple to makeThe breach is epoxyed and bolted in placeIt is made available tubing and bolts +It should be US legal to make if one wantedThe AA battrey is there just fore the scale I did not load it with those )
The photos give some idea about the constructionThe archive contains one more pic a video and some teaser pictures of my current project
The archive (httprapidsharecomfiles158456401cannon7z)
November 7th 2008 0347 AM3287
So now that Comrade Obama is going to jam through a permanent assault weapon ban in a few months
Suddenly this seems like a much more pertinent field of study
Alright the Luty design seems sufficient for emergency production - its like the Liberators better meaner cousin But whatabout all of the guns that are suddenly going to be verboten for us poor old plebes What does it take assuming moderatemachining skills and a multimachine-style set of tools to produce bolt semi- and fully-automatic rifles
Most of the gunsmithing courses Ive checked out are about accurizing adjusting or modifying firearms I dont think Ive everseen one that says Heres some steel lets make a gun
November 7th 2008 0254 PMKilly
Dont think that ever gun industry will be banned in USA like in some other countries its just too much money in thatbusinessso gun owners or wannabe owners dont need to be afraid theyll have to build somethingEven if they ban assault weapons there are plenty of semi-autos that can be easily converted
Quote 3287What does it take assuming moderate machining skills and a multimachine-style set of tools to produce bolt semi- andfully-automatic riflesMost of the gunsmithing courses Ive checked out are about accurizing adjusting or modifying firearms I dont think Ive everseen one that says Heres some steel lets make a gun
Whats your point here what do you want to sayor even better what do you want that we say
You have pretty wide questionsI hope youre not tossing a bone at us
November 7th 2008 0406 PMCobalt45
Dont think that ever gun industry will be banned in USA like in some other countries its just too much money in thatbusinessWhere the money is is the gun lobby- NRA
I dont think Ive ever seen one that says Heres some steel lets make a gunThere are members here that can and dojust that- with the help of available parts kits that supply various components
Precise hole placementdrilling and sheet metal bending is whats mainly needed to build them With just a little searching(google ak47 gun kit for instancerolleyes) you will find sites that cater to scratch-building stamped-steel-receiverweapons
Recently I read that some necessary parts have been outlawed Can anyone shed any light on this
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November 7th 2008 0443 PM3287
Ill research it and see what I can pull up I have seen the AK sites and while Im not a super-fan of the AK its better thanfighting with a stick and a rock Just ask the Jihadis
Even if they ban assault weapons there are plenty of semi-autos that can be easily converted
You do know that assault weapons are semi-automatic right
November 7th 2008 0515 PM-=HeX=-
Ok I drew a pic of my design in paint albeit only a rough sketch It is in pieces at the moment awaiting a camera so I canphoto its assembly A PA Luty gun would be nice but a proper gun nicer still I envision a horde of rioters used as aconvenient diversion for a staged assault on an (empty) police station with the rioters armed with the homemade weaponsThen the Resistance get proper weapons However why guns anyway why not hedgehog weapons grenades CW opticalisotropic radiators blinging weapons hot knives boom sticks and other unusual weapons which can be effective too
November 8th 2008 0610 AMKilly
I envision a horde of rioters used as a convenient diversion for a staged assault on an (empty) police station with the riotersarmed with the homemade weapons Then the Resistance get proper weapons However why guns anyway why nothedgehog weapons grenades CW optical isotropic radiators blinging weapons hot knives boom sticks and otherunusual weapons which can be effective too
Pretty Hollywood style dont you think
Although we need visionary man intellectual masturbations wont help anyone because scenario like that is unlikely tohappen however much you wish for it
Was that picture necessary Kid could sketch that
I would understand if you posted a picture with technical information like schematic and sizes of components
I know I sound a bit offensive but I said it before too much material here is discussed on theoretical base everybody hassome brilliant idea(which he hasnt and wouldnt build of course) with little true practical meaning or to show-off of that
3287
Jihadis The AK is probably used in most of the countries worldwideAre you try to imply that its only weapon of so called terrorists or members of fictional Al Quasi organisation (interestinglyenough freedom fighters are always called terrorists by invading country)
November 8th 2008 0638 AM3287
Sure lots of countries use it
Just not ones with the money to buy something better
Ok I drew a pic of my design in paint albeit only a rough sketch It is in pieces at the moment awaiting a camera so I canphoto its assembly A PA Luty gun would be nice but a proper gun nicer still I envision a horde of rioters used as aconvenient diversion for a staged assault on an (empty) police station with the rioters armed with the homemade weaponsThen the Resistance get proper weapons However why guns anyway why not hedgehog weapons grenades CW opticalisotropic radiators blinging weapons hot knives boom sticks and other unusual weapons which can be effective too
Well two reasons that I can see
One guns are a staple Wars are won and lost on the backs of infantrymen The other weapons are great but youve gotnothing if you have no guns
Two guns are much easier than explosives or experimental high-tech weaponry Theres little uncertainty and they require nodifficult-to-obtain chemicals or devices In their simplest form theyre just a tube to direct the bullet and a hammer to activatethe cartridge
November 9th 2008 0945 AMjlwilliams
Im weighing in a bit late here I want to respond to the op with my thoughts on the type and manufacture of a hypotheticalmodern day Liberator pistol
I think that the single shot reloadable handgun is still viable just not quite the same as the Liberator First the liberator hadproblems in that it was percieved as too cheap to be counted on In reality they worked but those few resistance fighters whogot them were said to be too sceptical of them to actually use them in action Using moderm manufacturing a break action orfalling block handgun that feels like something could be more readily accepted Think of the Sheridan Knockabout 22 singleshot at one end and the Thompson Contender (one of my favorite handguns ) at the other end of the spectrum and you couldbuild a gun in the middle
Next perameter I would add is either provision for a silencer or just built in to the design Think of the British designed Welrodpistols of WWII Reason being that as others have pointed out most folks dont want to fight Non trained and under trainedfighters are the people we are talking about arming here Anything that adds a degree of confidence is key The feeling thatall hell will break loose when I pull this trigger scares many people out of pulling that trigger Increase the likelyhood ofgetting away with it and the would be may be fighter can focus on doing the deed
I think the idea of a full auto gun is not as practical You could build Macs or Stens but they are a bit more gun than mostpeople can shoot well A manualy operated firearm is very practical There is a damn good reason my father started meshooting with a single shot 22 First off I was seven years old More over thats just the best way to start a marksman off Asan aside the fact that there are many many people in this country that were similarly taught as children makes a real
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impediment to any sort of invasion of my country Just dont try it
Lastly I would add a provision for adding a shoulder stock or make the gun adaptable being converted to a rifle Shoulderarms are easier to shoot well than pistols A suppressed pistol caliber or even 22 riflepistol platform would be readily acceptedand infinitely practical
On a historical note most of the Liberator pistols were eventualy destroyed not delivered to resistance movements TheFrench government in exile objected to flooding their country with zip guns that were un numbered smoothbores that would beall over the underworld after the war Likewise other countries realized that the war would end and didnt want them distributedto be a lethal nuisance to their police for years to come This comes from the book OSS Weapons by Brunner
November 16th 2008 1053 PMWallybanger
The Sten Gun was made from a piece of pipe and was produced in basements and small workshops all across Europe duringWWII you could build one with a welder (which you can make from 2 microwave transformers) a hack saw a hand drill and aset of files
November 17th 2008 1139 AMKilly
The Sten Gun was made from a piece of pipe and was produced in basements and small workshops all across Europe duringWWII you could build one with a welder (which you can make from 2 microwave transformers) a hack saw a hand drill and aset of files
Oh thank you very much for giving us this precious informations
Microwave welder
November 17th 2008 0458 PMiHME
Building a simple stick welder from a few micro waveoven transformers it has been done and there are numerous plans on thenet
But a sten with a crude stick welder files drill and bittsMaybe a sten clone in some low pressure cartidge like 25acp or 32But a full fledged sten in 9mm would be hard to buildBut if you can make one even a non-firing replica please do
Add a angle and bench grinder to the mix and you could replicate some of the milling operations Making the bolt would bethe hardest partAnd if I have figured it out correctly There could be a way how someone could make a sten style bolt with a drill press anglegrinder and files
November 17th 2008 0626 PM486
Recently I read that some necessary parts have been outlawed Can anyone shed any light on this
The barrels were recently banned from importation because they supposedly had no sporting purpose Sporting purpose isbullshit the second amendment was given so citizens could regain freedom if the need arises Hunting clay pigeons etchave nothing at all to do with the 2nd amendment (
November 17th 2008 0839 PMKilly
People are fast on their tongue (or fingers typing)doing something out of pipe set of files drill and hacksaw (all across Europe) sounds laughably easy but doing it onewould see that its enormous effort and timeand most people dont have the time and will even if they could depend on that what they are building
I even think if you put that time and will in conventional jobs for gaining money and beside that you search for (not legal)firearms you would end up better than building it on your own
November 18th 2008 1235 PMbillo
Arming the masses takes time this is done by real good preparation and SUPPLY Maybe all the members dont know but acity by name of Karachi in Pakistan is like a ticking BOMB THIS is where ARMING the MASSES has happened I have read itsomewhere that whole nights sometime are spent listening to automatic shooting on roads There is MAY 12 Karachiincidents over there youtube will surely give a good viewpoint on it
Illegal Ak-47 sells for about $500 and one mag for $30 and 1000 bullets for $250 And masses have been ARMED to teeth apolitical party named MQM Mutahida Quomi Movement I think it is called It was proclaimed as a Terrorist Organization byCanadian Supreme Court when MQM goons tried to run a Toronto and Vancouver units found excessively involved in moneylaundering
If anyone interested can watch news about karachi because within a month the city is said to erupt into a HUGE ball of FIRE
Arming masses means weapons which are tested and have readily available ammunition be made available to people whocan fight one to one fights for survivalmost common weapons are Tula Tokarev 30 Cal Chinese make 9mms People have even been rumoured to have takenloans from banks to buy weapons on license The Governor of that Province Sindh is someone who was WANTED in terrorismcases not one or two but 43 different cases Pakistan has been at war since it got its independence and now is the HUB of allsorts of wars Be it international National city wise or tribal or even street wise
This is where arming the masses has been carried out on GRAND scale
November 23rd 2008 0428 AMCorona
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within a month the city is said to erupt into a HUGE ball of FIRE
Whaaat I live here in Karachi you know rolleyes
A bit of a drama-queen post Please restrain yourself from airing your views on local politics This is not the place for that
Learn the difference between 9mm and 762mm (30 cal) They are not the same as you imply
Guns are cheap and universally available (thank God) I have a Tokarev myself takes 762 necked bullets Its a knowncar-stopper cop killer with the power of a 44 magnum excellent penetration See video
httpwwwyoutubecomwatchv=IfoDH7s-Hnc
Cheap tough and easy to maintain The best serious weapon for arming the masses I say
And no I didnt have to take out a loan from the bankp Chinese TTs (Tokarevs) only cost Rs12000 ($150) a local madeTT wouldve only cost me $50 at the most (but since my weapon is legal why act cheap) And magazines and laser mountsand accessories of all sorts are openly available without a license (for any sort of weapon) A Tokarev magazine costs lessthan $4 (US)
I believe arming the masses is a good thing Keeps the riffraff in check Because the riffraff will always be armed no matterwhat laws you put in place
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The Explosives and W eapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n gt W asr compensatorquestion
View Full Version Wasr compensator question
October 22nd 2008 1222 AMVoxD EI
I have a L1A1 compensator that I was wanting to put on m y W ASR-10 The only thing is that the wasr barrel is tapped all theway and the com pensator is only tapped about 12 inch leaving an untapped space between the threads and the bottom ofthe com pensator My question is does the barrel need to sit all the way to the bottom of the com pensator or is it alright tohave a 14 inch space between the barrel end and the bottom of the com pensato r
October 22nd 2008 0910 AMfestergrump
Im not fam iliar with the L1A1 model num ber What do you l ike about this m odel more than to buy another com pensator thatsfit correctly
I cant see any reason why it would hurt to screw it on as is other than m aybe cosm etically assum ing its m ade for a rifle thatchambers the same round as yours do es It probably wont engage the spring loaded pin in the base of the front sight post tokeep it from backing off so if you like it on there better than without it you might just silver solde r it there in place
Alternatively you could try to find a 14 1 reverse thread bottom tap (I did see them som eplace actually b ut the site evadesm e now) and finish out the threads on your compensator that way Mcm aster Carr would surely have them but youll pay apretty penny for one there (much more than a new flash hider or recoil com pensa tor anyway)
Show us som e pics O f the com pensator would be helpful but Im a suck er for gu n-porn so show us your WASR too )
October 22nd 2008 0304 PMVoxD EI
The L1A1 is the inch pattern FAL I already had the com pensator and didnt want to buy another and the bottom tap cost toom uch to use once
October 22nd 2008 0625 PMfestergrump
W ell there ya go then
Aside from som e m odels working well to redirect m uzzle flash to the side so you dont lose your sight picture so easily theyseem to do nothing much for recoil that I could tell Some certainly look cooler than others though
If it were me Id stick a m uzzlenut or a slant b rake on there (so I could use a bayonet if needed) and call it done But then allthe AKMs Ive ever fired were working guns so cosm etics never m attered one bit
October 27th 2008 0629 PMm700m
I would like to find an barrel nut for my M70AB2 do you know if a standard barrel nut from an AKM would work
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The Explosives and W eapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n gt TZ 75 Series 88 41Action Express
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Novem ber 5th 2008 1142 AMscott2547
I need some help with this pistol The gun will not fire the firing pin will not impact the shell The firing pin does not apear tobe broken I have rem oved it and there are no defects The hamm er does make contact with the pin and it m oves freely butdoes not make contact Does anyone know the OAL of the fir ing pin or where parts could be purchased
I have had this pistol for about 5 years and have 500 round of IMI am mo I never tried to shoot it until yesterday what adisapointm entThanks in advance fo r any help
Dont start posts with Hi
Novem ber 5th 2008 0420 PMiHME
You could try asking around the wwwhom egunsmithcomThey have a exelent hom egunsm ithing forum up therePeople are building AR -15s and AKs som e pe ople eve n m ill the ar-15 upper and lower recivers from solid 6061(did I get itright) alum inium
Novem ber 6th 2008 1217 AMAlexires
scott2547 - You need to not m ake a new threadfirst post straight off AS well as a U TSFE question Banned
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The Explosives and W eapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n gt hom ebrew blackpo wderto cartridge conversion
View Full Version homebrew blackpowder to cartridge conversion
Novem ber 25th 2008 1102 PMthunderchicken
Hello All
I am looking forward to being a m em ber of this forum
I am a welder by trad e and an am ateur home gunsm ith m y m ain interest is single action pistols lever action rifles anddouble barrel shotguns
I recently bought 2 1851 navy copies very chea p both need a lot of cosm etic work and small parts replaced I have researchedconversions online and only find the comm ercial offered kits I found one item while doing a pattern search but no real tech totry my own
I have an Idea and would l ike input to see if it is possible and to let m e know if Im m issing any steps
Here is what I have 2 36 cal BP revolvers a 22lr barrel from an old Stevens single shot rifle a me tal shop and a friend with am illing m achine
I am thinking if I drill out the BP barrel and cylinder to say 380 (cylinder is at current 376) then have the old 22 barrel m illedto fit as an insert into the BP barrel and cylinde r W eld them in place then do the finishing touches such as m odding theham mer to rimfire etc etc After all is said and done I am thinking I wou ld have a nice 22 lr 1851 pistol
W ould I have to rem ove the barrelling from the sections of barrel I would be using in the cylinder if yes wo uld it just be easierto use round stock and m illet to fit
I hope this is worded right I know in m y cluttered little m ind what Im thinking and wanting to do and hope I have givenenough info for comm enting back on
Thanks and I look forward to being here on The Forum
Novem ber 26th 2008 0731 PMcrazywhiteguy
As long as you have a lathe available that throws all your problem s with alignment out the window To change the cylindersize you would need to dril l or machine a piece of round stock to 03 smaller than the ca rtridge then use a ream er to give itthe appropriate size and needed taper Then you cut the piece about 2m m longer than the cylinde r face it off to be 1m mlong er but m ake sure its not less Im not sure the diam eter you ll need for a tigh t fit but I assum e you can m easure and sa nduntil its near perfect the 1mm extra on length is to make the welding easier W hich you m ay not n eed since your a welder bytrade I suck at welding so I use every trick In the book to mak e it look better than it really is
I cant really help m uch with th e barrel I could never afford (or legally purchase) anything other than hydraulic tube forbarrels(
I think you m ean rifl ing instead of barreling You could simple turn down the 22 barrel to 01 less than the diam eter of thebarrel ID This would give let you just drop the 22 barrel in and m elt sold er in the cracks to seal it
How I helped
Novem ber 26th 2008 0900 PMsbovisjb1
dril l ream rifle I believe there was a video on here at one poin t showing you how to do it at hom e using simple equipment
Novem ber 26th 2008 1016 PMthunderchicken
Thanks for the info I am hoping to try this project during m y vacation In December So all the info I can get betwe en now andthen should m ake this a sm ooth project
Again Thank You
Novem ber 27th 2008 0116 PMfestergrump
dril l ream rifle I believe there was a video on here at one poin t showing you how to do it at hom e using simple equipment
W hy even open your m outh rolleyes
Thanks for the info I am hoping to try this project during m y vacation in decem ber So all the info I can get between nowand then should mak e this a sm ooth project
I hope the info you have now is really enough to get you started as if your gramm ar does not im prove gre atly I suspect yo uwill not be a m em ber here at RS for that long
Giving you the generous bene fit of the doubt that you will attempt this conversion maybe I can help in some way
First off if you are not choose y as to what calib er your converted revolvers will be the existing barrel of the 36 navies youhave would suffice for the 38 special round providing you never shoot any jacketed bullet 100 soft lead only Th at mayhelp alot towards your conversion endevours
I dont have an 1851 Colt example right in front of m e so I can not mic the cham bers of the cylinder to see how a 38 splcasing would fit if you sim ply drilled ou t the back ream ed and added a dot of weld to the ham mer to strike the centerfireprim er Besides diffe rent m akers m eans differences in the mea surem ents (Pede rsoli F Pietta Uberti Palm etto etc)
In the chance this will not work (Drilling out the cylinder for a sleeve of th is caliber seem s like it m ay not leave enough m eatbetween cham bers to work well) so long as you have the existing BP cylinder handy as a m odel and access to a lathe m illingm achine and rotary indexing vise for your dril lpress making a new cylinder is not as difficult as you m ight im agine after som e
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trial and erro r Youll want to use a steel high in carbon content to be able to harden it after com pleted
If a 22LR is your ultim ate goal as you suggest the pro cess will be a bit m ore involved with the barrel but MUCH less so withthe cylinder The barrel you should either ream out the rifl ing an d pressfit a new barrel liner in with a shop press or leave theriflin g and use a very powerful compou nd glue l ike JB W eld to hold it into place A weld at the crown and where the sleevealm ost engages the cylinder that could be turned to perfection would be very good for longevity
A good source for barrel sleeves HERE (httpwwwtrackofthewolfcom(S(gb45le55x0hqgbrgf1c2ev45))categoriestableListaspxcatID=14ampsubID=142ampstyleID=483) Dont forget to chamfer the rearmost into some sort of forcing cone
As for the cylinder drill out the ass end (bit centered from the front) rea m and press fit your newly lathe turned cham bersleeves into each on e then rework your ham m er to strike the rim of an indexed round
My disclaimer here is that I have never done this This is all speculation on my part as I h ave no 1851 m odel here to look a twhich would be very h elpful I do have an exploded view of this m odel though it shows no m easurem ents Il l post it hereanyway for anyone who m ay like to see it
Personally I favor the 1858 R emington due to the topstrap support of the fram e and the ability to swap cylinders with relativeease and speed That and I real ly hate the Colt s wedge holding the dam n thing together Seem s weak in design to m e But Isuppose Id work with whats on hand l ike you
Good luck
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The Explosives and W eapons Forum gt Military Science gt Gunsmithing and Firearm Modificatio n gt AR -15 Lighting Link
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Novem ber 27th 2008 0150 PMJer1963
I am new here so hello to all I keep hearing about a Lightning l ink for a AR-15 Do these really work I found the plans forone at Om eganull for the coltAr-15 but it looks different from the other one I sawI found this website RH-CUSTOMSNET but it so unds to be good to be tru e$75 sounds kinda cheap I wo nder who will be at your m ail box when it shows up I just want to go shoot and enjoy being ab leto do that I am new at thisand would really l ike som e advice Should I just take the tool steel pieces I have and take it to a m achine shop and have itm ade (from O meganul l plans)I cant find the plans for the SW D model Thanks in a dvance for any advice
Novem ber 27th 2008 0337 PMfestergrump
httpwwwroguesciorgtheforumshowthreadphpt=5303amphighlight=ligh tning+link
And to l ive long and healthy h ere read and follow the links provided HER E (httpwwwrog uesciorgtheforum announceme ntphpf=14) and read THIS (httpwwwro guesciorgtheforum showthreadp hpt=4469) thread for goodm easure
In a nutshell the AR lightning link is considered a m achinegun in and of itself which a perm it has to be ap plied for to possessany and a tax paid for each one to be legal Happy hoo p jumping
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