Web view42 Do you recall giving those answers to my questions? 43 A . Yes, I ... we are copied into...

ROYAL COMMISSION INTO TRADE UNION GOVERNANCE AND CORRUPTION

Brisbane Magistrates Court Level 4, 363 George Street, Brisbane, QLD, 4000

On Thursday, 24 September 2015 at 10.00am (Day 4)

CFMEU QLD - DOCUMENT DESTRUCTION

Before the Commissioner: The Hon. John Dyson Heydon AC QC

Counsel Assisting: Ms S McNaughton SC and Mr T Prince

Instructed by: Minter Ellison, Solicitors

.24/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 357 Transcript produced by DTI

1 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton. 2 3 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. We have arranged for two witnesses 4 from yesterday to be called again today. They are 5 Ms Masters and Ms Collie. Can I now call Paula Masters? 6 7 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 8 9 <PAULA ELLEN MASTERS, sworn: [10.03am] 10 11 <EXAMINATION BY MS McNAUGHTON: 12 13 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Could you just for the record say 14 your full name again, please? 15 A. Paula Ellen Masters. 16 17 Q. You gave evidence before the Commission yesterday? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 20 Q. During the course of that evidence, do you recall 21 being asked about your knowledge about receiving or the 22 CFMEU receiving a notice to produce? 23 A. Yes, I remember being asked. 24 25 Q. And I asked you, when I was talking about the day of 26 1 April, at page 215, line 8: 27 28 Do you recall anything about a notice to 29 produce ever being issued to the CFMEU at 30 about this time? 31 32 You answered: 33 34 It was issued about that time but we hadn't 35 received it at that point. 36 37 Q. When did you receive it? 38 A. I probably wouldn't have got it until 39 later in the week. It would have gone to 40 Michael Ravbar in the first instance. 41 42 Continuing on at line 18 you say: 43 44 Q. Have you heard about it as of 1 April 45 2014? 46 A. Not to us, no, I hadn't. 47

.24/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 358 P E MASTERS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI

1 Line 25: 2 3 Q. You say you didn't hear about the 4 notice to produce until later? 5 A. Not on that particular day. I think 6 I had heard that Plumbers had received one, 7 but at that point we hadn't. 8 9 It goes on: 10 11 Q. Were you expecting to? 12 A. I'm sure it was a matter of time before 13 we would get one, but how long that time 14 was, I have no idea. 15 16 It goes on, at the bottom of the page: 17 18 Q. You are saying, are you, that you had 19 no knowledge of the fact that the CFMEU had 20 received in its Melbourne office a notice 21 to produce on 1 April 2014? 22 23 Over the page, at 216: 24 25 Not at that time I didn't know that. 26 27 Q. Are you sure? 28 A. Yes, I am sure. 29 30 Q. You hadn't heard formally or 31 informally? 32 A. No, I hadn't. 33 34 Q. You hadn't? 35 A. No, I hadn't, no. 36 37 Q. You hadn't been told that by anyone 38 within the office or, indeed, from another 39 office of the CFMEU elsewhere in Australia? 40 A. That I can recall that I had, no. 41 42 Do you recall giving those answers to my questions? 43 A. Yes, I do, yes. 44 45 Q. Do you stand by the truth of those answers? 46 A. Yes, I do. 47


1 Q. Have you been made aware overnight or this morning of 2 documents retrieved from the CFMEU office in Queensland? 3 A. Sorry, specifically? 4 5 Q. Emails? Have you been made aware -- 6 A. Are you talking about the email delivering the notice 7 to produce? 8 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. You have been made aware of that? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. You have been made aware, have you, that you are one 16 of the people copied in on the day of 1 April 2014? 17 A. Yes, that has been drawn to my attention. 18 19 Q. What do you say about that? 20 A. The email that came is marked to the attention of the 21 State Secretaries. As I - there was a bit of a transition 22 period where I had been Michael's PA and Jacqui was taking 23 over, that's why both the names are there. As a normal 24 course of events, we are copied into them in case Michael 25 wants to refer to that to us over the phone, as he often 26 does. 27 28 Q. Do you say that you were aware of it or not aware of 29 an email attaching a Notice to Produce on 1 April 2014? 30 A. Not on 1 April, no. 31 32 Q. Were you told by anybody in the office not to look at 33 your email on the afternoon and evening of 1 April? 34 A. Not that I recall. 35 36 Q. Are you saying that you were not looking at your email 37 as of 1 April 2014 in the afternoon and evening? 38 A. Well, that day has been identified as the day we did 39 the clean up. I would have been wandering around the 40 building, going about those duties, not sitting at my desk 41 looking at emails. 42 43 Q. Would you have, though, periodically thought you would 44 have needed to check your email in the afternoon or in the 45 evening? 46 A. No. 47


1 Q. Not at all? 2 A. No. 3 4 Q. Can I ask you again? Can you recall whether or not 5 you were told by anyone in the office not to look at your 6 email on the afternoon and evening of 1 April 2014? 7 A. Weren't being told not to read my emails. 8 9 Q. Can I show you this document, please. Do you see 10 there an email from Michael O'Connor? The top of it says, 11 "Sent", Tuesday, 1 April 2014 at 4.16pm. Do you see that 12 it is addressed to a large number of people? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. It is copied into a large but slightly smaller number 16 of people? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. The subject is: 20 21 URGENT - Notice to Produce Documents from 22 the Royal Commission - To all CFMEU 23 Division Secretaries/Presidents, Divisional 24 Branch Secretaries and District Branch 25 Presidents. 26 27 Do you see that? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. It is apparent from that that a number of documents 31 are attached? 32 A. Mmm-hmm. 33 34 Q. They are identified as Royal Commission Notice to 35 Produce Letter to CFMEU. Do you see that? 36 A. Yes, I see that. 37 38 Q. And then there's some further detail there. Do you 39 see that the body of the email says: 40 41 To all CFMEU Division 42 Secretaries/Presidents, Divisional Branch 43 Secretaries and District Branch Presidents. 44 45 Re: URGENT - Notice to Produce Documents 46 from the Royal Commission. 47


1 A. Yes, I see that. 2 3 Q. And: 4 5 Please find attached for your urgent 6 attention, noting the 10.00am 11 April 7 deadline, two attachments: 8 9 - The Notice to Produce Documents 10 11 - A letter regarding it. 12 13 In unity. 14 15 Michael O'Connor. 16 17 Do you see that? 18 A. Yes, I see that. 19 20 Q. Do you say that you didn't see that on 1 April? 21 A. Not on that time, no, not on that day. 22 23 Q. Would you have seen it the next day? 24 A. I don't remember it, but in all probability I would 25 have. 26 27 Q. Part of your job, wasn't it, was to monitor your 28 emails? 29 A. My emails? 30 31 Q. Well, monitor the emails that came to your email 32 address? 33 A. These are Michael Ravbar's emails. 34 35 Q. But this was sent to you, wasn't it? 36 A. It's sent to me as a copy. It has been addressed to 37 the Secretaries; it was his business. 38 39 Q. Just to make it clear, under the "Cc" area, there are 40 a number of names? 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. And then on the third line is your name? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. That would have come to your email address? 47 A. Yes, it would have.


1 2 Q. It would have come up in the subject area as "URGENT? 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. You say that you didn't see that on 1 April? 6 A. I didn't see it on 1 April, no. 7 8 Q. You would have seen it at least on 2 April? 9 A. I would imagine I did see the email. 10 11 Q. You would have noticed, wouldn't you, that it was 12 saying "URGENT", in capital letters, and appeared to 13 relate, on its face, to something that was an important 14 topic? 15 A. I may well have opened it; I cannot recall. 16 17 Q. But even if you didn't open it, you would have seen 18 the subject, would you not? 19 A. Yes, I would have seen the subject, but, again, it's 20 addressed to the Secretary and unless he directed me to 21 read it and do something with it, I had no reason to read 22 it. 23 24 Q. How would you know that it was addressed to the 25 Secretary from just looking at the subject? 26 A. Well, on my emails - well, without looking at one 27 I can't swear to it, but I would say that I would normally 28 see "To" and "Cc" but, you know, I'd have to look at 29 a screen with my emails on to say that that's how it's set 30 out. 31 32 Q. You can't recall, as at 2014, how you received the 33 email that came into your inbox? 34 A. I can't recall the set-out on my screen. 35 36 Q. Can you recall, for example, if it's a line in the 37 subject that appears or more than one line in the subject 38 that appears? 39 A. Look, I would honestly have to look at my computer to 40 tell you that. 41 42 Q. You can't remember, for example, whether there's part 43 of the email which appears, for example, on the right-hand 44 side which gives you an idea of it or not? 45 A. No, I don't have that showing. 46 47 Q. You don't have that showing?


1 A. No, I don't have that showing. 2 3 Q. Do you at least have the date, the time, and a bit of 4 the subject? 5 A. I think I have date, time, sender, who it was sent to, 6 who it was copied to, and "Subject", yes, I think "Subject" 7 would be there. 8 9 Q. Would it be more than one line of the subject or just 10 that one line? 11 A. No, it would be however much the screen could hold of 12 what is printed in that subject there and that may be as 13 far as "Notice to Produce Documents". 14 15 Q. Yes. At the very least, you would have seen "URGENT - 16 Notice to Produce Documents"? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. You understand at the very least you would have seen 20 it on 2 April? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. Did it concern you at all that the day before a whole 24 large number of documents had been taken off-site for 25 destruction? 26 A. No. 27 28 Q. No? 29 A. No. 30 31 Q. Why not? 32 A. Because I was aware that what had been taken were old 33 files or files that we had copies of or could easily 34 reproduce if needed. 35 36 Q. Did you know that in relation to every single piece of 37 paper which was taken off-site for destruction, did you, 38 Ms Masters? 39 A. I didn't read every single piece of paper, no. 40 41 Q. You couldn't have known that in relation to every 42 document? 43 A. No, obviously, I didn't look at every piece of paper. 44 45 Q. But you couldn't have known that every single document 46 that was taken off-site may not be relevant to either this 47 notice to produce or potential future notices to produce at


1 the Royal Commission, could you? 2 A. I was comfortable that in all probability what was 3 taken off-site would not be required. 4 5 Q. Did you think it would be prudent, once you had 6 received this email, with at least a notice that it was 7 urgent and there was a notice to produce documents, that an 8 audit should have been done of what was taken off-site, 9 such that there would be no danger of relevant material 10 being destroyed? 11 A. Well, again, short of reading every piece of paper 12 that was in that pile, there is no way of knowing that. 13 14 Q. You didn't think it was prudent, as the governance 15 person - prudent, as the governance person? 16 A. I was comfortable that there was nothing leaving the 17 building that would have been required. If you're saying 18 there was one note in there, I obviously cannot say it 19 wasn't there. 20 21 Q. You can't say, really, in relation to a whole range of 22 things what was or wasn't taken off-site, can you? 23 A. At the end of the day what was required in that notice 24 to produce was produced. 25 26 Q. You don't know in relation to the Royal Commission, 27 which was set at that time to finish on 31 December 2014, 28 whether or not further notices to produce may be sent, 29 did you? 30 A. No, I didn't. 31 32 Q. You didn't know whether or not some documents may be 33 caught by future notices to produce, did you? 34 A. The documents were old. I didn't think they would be 35 covered. 36 37 MS McNAUGHTON: Could that document be received into 38 evidence, please? 39 40 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. That will be Document Disposal 41 Case Study MFI-12, email from Mr O'Connor dated 1 April 42 2015 at 4.16pm to Mr Ravbar and others, with attachments. 43 44 DOCUMENT DISPOSAL CASE STUDY MFI-12 - EMAIL FROM 45 MR O'CONNOR, DATED 01/04/2015 AT 4.16PM, TO MR RAVBAR AND 46 OTHERS, WITH ATTACHMENTS 47


1 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Ms Masters, did you ask at any time 2 Mr Ravbar the address of where the material was taken for 3 destruction? 4 A. No, I didn't. 5 6 Q. Did you ask Mr Ravbar whether or not you should 7 prepare a list or cause someone else to prepare a list of 8 the material that was taken for destruction? 9 A. No, I didn't. 10 11 Q. Did you have any idea, do you say, of where the 12 material was taken for destruction? 13 A. No, I didn't. 14 15 Q. You didn't think it prudent to find out? 16 A. No. I had never been involved in the destruction of 17 the documents once they left the building. 18 19 Q. You didn't think that you should find out whether or 20 not, even though they were taken or at least a large number 21 had been taken on 1 April, the destruction process could be 22 halted to make sure that nothing that may be required would 23 be destroyed? 24 A. Sorry, could you say that one again? 25 26 Q. You didn't think it would be prudent to stop or to 27 attempt to stop any future destruction, such that there 28 would be no danger of having things destroyed which may be 29 required? 30 A. No. If there was an odd piece of paper in there, 31 I don't know how you would have located it. There was not 32 necessarily any order to any of the BLF data. 33 34 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, thank you, they are my questions. 35 36 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr McCarthy, any questions? 37 38 MR McCARTHY: No, Commissioner. 39 40 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Agius? 41 42 MR AGIUS: No questions, thank you. 43 44 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you for returning today, 45 Ms Masters. You are, I think it is correct to say, excused 46 from further attendance on the summons of today. 47 Thank you.


1 2 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 3 4 MS McNAUGHTON: I call Jacqui Collie. 5 6 <JACQUELINE LOUISE COLLIE, sworn: [10.18am] 7 8 <EXAMINATION BY MS McNAUGHTON: 9 10 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. You gave evidence yesterday? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. Do you recall being asked by me about your knowledge, 14 or otherwise, of receiving a notice to produce? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Have you been made aware overnight or this morning of 18 an email which is relevant to that topic? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. What do you say about that? 22 A. I don't recall seeing the email. 23 24 Q. You are looking down. Are you looking -- 25 A. Well, I don't recall seeing the email. 26 27 Q. You have seen that email before and by that are you 28 looking at MFI-12? Yes. It has just been confirmed that 29 you are looking at the document that has just been marked? 30 A. Yes, I saw it this morning, yes. 31 32 Q. Do you see that you are copied in as one of the people 33 under the "Cc" section, you are on the end of the second 34 line through to the beginning of the third line? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. And that's sent through, it would appear, at 4.16pm 38 Brisbane time? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. And -- 42 43 THE COMMISSIONER: Is that correct? 44 45 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. We have made inquiries, 46 Commissioner. We are going to be clarifying when that is 47 Brisbane time and when it is Southern States time on the

.24/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 367 J L COLLIE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI

1 way through, but our understanding is that this particular 2 time is 4.16 Brisbane time. 3 4 Q. Were you in the office at 4.16pm on 1 April? 5 A. Yes, I was. 6 7 Q. Were you sometimes at your desk? 8 A. From what I recall, around four I was assisting with 9 files. 10 11 Q. Yesterday, at page 318, line 39, when I was asking you 12 about what you were doing, you said: 13 14 Well, I was moving files for probably 15 a while, so while I was doing that, he was 16 looking at the files. 17 18 And that's Mr Ravbar. And then you were asked: 19 20 Q. You said you were also in your own 21 office? 22 A. Yes. Throughout the night, I was also 23 doing my other work. 24 25 Do you recall giving that answer? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. That would have involved looking at your computer? 29 A. I don't recall seeing this email. 30 31 Q. Right. That would have involved looking at your 32 computer, your other work? 33 A. I can't recall whether I checked my emails. 34 35 Q. Part of your job is to check emails, is it not? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. You are saying that you didn't check your emails any 39 time from 4.16pm on 1 April till the time you left that 40 day? 41 A. Well, I didn't see this email, so - I don't recall 42 seeing the email. 43 44 Q. Do you see that the "Subject" is "URGENT", with 45 capital letters, "Notice to Produce Documents from the 46 Royal Commission"? Do you say you didn't see that email on 47 the afternoon of 1 April?


1 A. I don't recall seeing the email on 1 April. 2 3 Q. Do you see in the body of the email it says, in 4 capital letters and in bold, "URGENT" and then in bold 5 "Notice to Produce Documents from the Royal Commission"? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. And you say even though it is from Michael O'Connor, 9 who you understand is a very senior person in your overall 10 organisation, and that you are copied in, you didn't see 11 the email? 12 A. I don't recall seeing the email. 13 14 Q. Did you also at 1 April 2014 receive Mr Ravbar's 15 email? 16 A. Sorry, can you repeat the question? 17 18 Q. As at 1 April 2014, did you receive Mr Ravbar's email? 19 A. It would depend on the matter. I don't receive all of 20 Mr Ravbar's emails. I get copied in to some, some I don't; 21 it just depends on who it's from. 22 23 Q. Were you some sort of delegate or some sort of 24 nominated person in his Outlook account for emails such 25 that you would receive his emails as a matter of course? 26 A. I can access his emails but I don't get them 27 automatically. I have to go into his Inbox to see them. 28 29 Q. Do you have to physically go to his computer or can 30 you do that from your computer? 31 A. I can do it from my computer. 32 33 Q. How do you go about doing that? 34 A. On the side panel I have access to all of the senior 35 officers' emails. 36 37 Q. Did anyone tell you on the afternoon and/or evening of 38 1 April not to look at your emails? 39 A. Not that I recall. 40 41 Q. Did anyone tell you on the afternoon and/or the 42 evening of 1 April 2014 not to answer telephone calls? 43 A. No, not that I recall. 44 45 Q. That's not a "no": You're saying "not that I recall"? 46 A. I don't recall that, no. 47


1 Q. It's something that you would recall if it had 2 happened, wouldn't you? 3 A. It's a hell of a long time ago. 4 5 Q. But you know that the Royal Commission is interested 6 in what happened around about this time, so you'd have been 7 thinking about it? 8 A. Yes. I don't recall. 9 10 Q. You can't recall, just to be clear, whether or not you 11 were told not to look at your emails on the afternoon 12 and/or the evening of 1 April? 13 A. Correct, I can't recall. 14 15 Q. Do you know, or do you recall, anything about staff 16 there being told not to answer phone calls on the afternoon 17 and/or evening of 1 April? 18 A. No, I don't recall that. 19 20 Q. When do you believe you saw this email? 21 A. I honestly can't recall. To me, I was new and notice 22 to produce documents didn't - wasn't part of my role. 23 I can't recall when I would have seen that. 24 25 Q. It does say "URGENT" and it does say "Notice to 26 Produce Documents from the Royal Commission", so, on its 27 face, whether or not you knew anything about anything much, 28 you would know that that, on its face, was an important 29 document, yes? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. Wouldn't it be prudent, in the role that you had at 33 the time, to bring it to the attention of Mr Ravbar? 34 A. Not if he's around the office; I don't draw his 35 attention to every single email. 36 37 Q. Right, but this is not every single email, is it, it's 38 quite an important one? 39 A. If he's in the office, unless he requests that I - if 40 he's away, I check his, I monitor his emails, but if he's 41 in the office, I don't. Unless someone calls me to say, 42 "Can you chase Michael up? I've sent him an urgent email", 43 or, "I need an answer on something", then I'll chase 44 Michael. 45 46 Q. Are you able to assist the Commission with who in your 47 office or outside your office provided IT support to your


1 computers as at 2014 and/or 2015? 2 A. Who provided IT support? 3 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. I'm not sure if it was done nationally or 6 Paula Masters did a bit as well internally. 7 8 Q. So if something goes wrong, Paula fixes it? 9 A. We go to her first, yes. 10 11 Q. And then do you know if she contacts anybody? 12 A. I don't know. She will look at the problem. I don't 13 know if she contacts anyone after that. 14 15 Q. You don't know which company, if any, maintains your 16 services, or is it a national -- 17 A. No, I don't. Normally, I go straight to Paula. 18 19 Q. Did you work the next day on 2 April? 20 A. From what I recall, yes. If it wasn't school - 21 I would have just had the day off if it was school 22 holidays, so, yeah, I'm pretty sure I was in the office. 23 24 Q. If you can accept from me that school holidays started 25 the following week in Queensland, at least for public 26 schools? 27 A. Then yes, I probably was working the next day. 28 29 Q. Do you believe you saw the email the next day? 30 A. Possibly. 31 32 Q. Well -- 33 A. At some stage - yeah, because I would have been 34 checking my emails. 35 36 Q. Well, you would have been, wouldn't you? 37 A. At some stage, so yes. 38 39 Q. Well, definitely -- 40 A. But I can't say for sure. 41 42 Q. Well, why can't you say for sure? 43 A. Because I can't recall. I can't recall when I saw 44 this email. 45 46 Q. But you have a system, don't you, of going through 47 your emails?


1 A. Yeah. 2 3 Q. One would hope - yes? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. And you would be looking through each email; if you 7 didn't get to it the previous day, you would be looking 8 through them the next day? 9 A. Yes, but it's not actually addressed to me. I am 10 copied into the email but I normally action my emails 11 first, so yeah, I can't recall when I would have seen this 12 email. 13 14 Q. Right. Do you know why you were copied in? 15 A. I had just started so there was a transition with 16 Paula and I, so I would have been copied in as Michael's 17 PA, as senior official. 18 19 Q. And as Michael Ravbar's PA, why do you think you would 20 have been copied into it? 21 A. Because I'm his PA. 22 23 Q. Well, that's right. And "PA" stands for what? 24 A. Personal assistant. 25 26 Q. You are there to assist him as required; is that 27 right? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. And one of the things you assist him with is to assist 31 him with his emails; is that right? 32 A. Not necessarily. If he's in the office, I don't chase 33 him up on his emails. 34 35 Q. Do I take it from that that he was in the office all 36 of 1 April and 2 April? 37 A. I can recall his whereabouts, but he was in there on 38 the 1st. 39 40 Q. Such that you had comfort that you didn't need to 41 bring anything of this nature to his attention? 42 A. I can't say that because I don't recall seeing when 43 I saw the email. I - I can't -- 44 45 Q. Is that your honest answer to the Royal Commission? 46 A. Yes, I can't recall when I saw this email, that's my 47 answer.


1 2 Q. In relation to the 2nd, do you know whether or not 3 Mr Ravbar was in the office? 4 A. Oh, sorry, I can't - I'd have to look at his diary. 5 6 Q. Is that an electronic diary or a physical diary, or 7 both? Electronic? And that would still be on your system, 8 would it? 9 A. Yes, as far as I'm aware, yes. 10 11 Q. Does that run through Outlook or run through some 12 other -- 13 A. Outlook. 14 15 Q. If he was away on 2 April, would you have thought it 16 proper to bring it to his attention, this email? 17 A. Notice to produce, if he was away, I would probably 18 speak to Paula. 19 20 Q. But you're his PA at that point? 21 A. Yes. If he was out of the office, away, interstate, 22 I would probably say to Paula first there was a notice to 23 produce and then if I was talking to Michael, I would draw 24 it to his attention. 25 26 Q. Do you recall anything between 1 and 2 April, on 27 either of those days, of a discussion about the notice to 28 produce in the office of the Queensland Branch of the 29 CFMEU? 30 A. No, I do not. 31 32 Q. Are you sure about that? 33 A. Yes. On the 2nd, did you say? 34 35 Q. On the 1st or the 2nd? 36 A. No, I can't recall. 37 38 Q. Is it that you can't recall or no, you do not? 39 A. I can't recall. 40 41 Q. Are you of the view that if you had heard something 42 about the Notice to Produce, which is an 43 out-of-the-ordinary occurrence, that you would recall it? 44 A. If Michael was away, yes. 45 46 Q. Is there a general email address for the office that 47 you work in?


1 A. A queries email address? 2 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. Is that queries@cfmeu, et cetera? 7 A. [email protected], yes. 8 9 Q. Who monitors that email? 10 A. It has changed a bit - Paula Masters or Leanne Butkus 11 and Stacey Davidson when Leanne's away. 12 13 Q. Do you know whether or not, for example, the emails 14 for the senior officials are publically available or do 15 people communicate with the office from the outside to the 16 queries email address? 17 A. To the senior officers? 18 19 Q. Yes. Are they publically available or listed or not? 20 A. Again, it depends what the matter is. Some emails 21 through Board decisions or QCU Executive meetings go 22 through queries. It depends on the matter, it depends what 23 it is and who it's from. 24 25 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, thank you, they are my questions. 26 27 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr McCarthy? 28 29 MR McCARTHY: No, thank you, sir. 30 31 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Agius? 32 33 <EXAMINATION BY MR AGIUS: 34 35 MR AGIUS: Q. In April 2014, thinking back, would you 36 have expected to have been involved in any response to 37 a notice from the Royal Commission? 38 A. No. 39 40 Q. Would you have regarded it as any part of your duty at 41 that time -- 42 A. No. 43 44 Q. -- to do anything -- 45 A. No. 46 47 Q. -- if you saw an email that said something about

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1 a notice received from the Royal Commission? 2 A. Not in April 2014, no. 3 4 MR AGIUS: Thank you. 5 6 THE COMMISSIONER: Ms McNaughton, anything further? 7 8 MS McNAUGHTON: No, thank you, the witness can be excused. 9 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Ms Collie, you are excused from further 11 attendance on the summons that was served this morning. 12 Thank you for coming back in. 13 14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Commissioner. 15 16 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 17 18 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton? 19 20 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, thank you. I call Michael Ravbar. 21 22 <MICHAEL RAVBAR, sworn: [10.33am] 23 24 <EXAMINATION BY MS McNAUGHTON: 25 26 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Sir, can you please tell the 27 Commission your full name? 28 A. Michael Ravbar. 29 30 Q. Your current occupation? 31 A. Secretary of the Queensland CFMEU. 32 33 Q. How long have you been in that position? 34 A. Since 2007. 35 36 Q. Prior to that what was your job or your position? 37 A. I've had - I've actually had various roles with the 38 CFMEU. Before that, I was the Assistant Secretary. Before 39 that, I was the Industrial Officer. 40 41 Q. Do you also hold National positions on the CFMEU? 42 A. I'm the National Vice-President of the CFMEU. 43 44 Q. Does that require you to meet on a National level 45 occasionally? 46 A. Yes. I'm also on the National Executive of the 47 C and G Division. There's two National positions and we do

.24/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 375 M RAVBAR (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI

1 meet on various occasions during the year. 2 3 Q. Are there rules, so far as you are aware, which govern 4 the way the Union is governed? 5 A. Sorry, can you -- 6 7 Q. Do you have a rules book, a rule book? 8 A. The CFMEU is one organisation split up into three 9 divisions. The rules that my Branch would work under is 10 that we have a State set of rules. Also, we have a Federal 11 Branch of the CFMEU, so you'd have the Queensland C and G 12 Division of the National Union, so you would have a set of 13 rules there. There would be a set of rules of the 14 Construction and General Division and then the umbrella 15 would actually have a set of rules of the National CFMEU. 16 So there's a number of rules for the different parts of the 17 CFMEU. 18 19 Q. In relation to the Construction and General Division, 20 is there a section which sets out the duties of the 21 Divisional Branch Secretary, to your knowledge? 22 A. Yes, there is. 23 24 Q. What do you understand those rules provide? 25 A. Those rules provide that you look after the 26 administration of the Union, you look after the finances, 27 you look after the policy of the Union, that you undertake 28 to do a lot of reporting to various organisations, look 29 after the interests of the members. It's quite long in 30 respect to what the duties are. 31 32 Q. Are you, to put it shortly, the effective head of the 33 Queensland Branch? 34 A. Yes, I am. 35 36 Q. Do you take that position seriously? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. Do you make sure that you know about what's happening 40 on a day-to-day level within the office, so far as you are 41 able to? 42 A. I try to, yes. 43 44 Q. In fact, you would have heard evidence, would you, 45 about other staff members who have given an account of your 46 management style? 47 A. Yes, I have.


1 2 Q. That you are an exacting boss, I think would be the 3 effect of what they say in part? 4 A. I heard different commentary of myself. I'm a pretty 5 hard boss, if you want to call it, yep. 6 7 Q. And not only that, you also are across - at least one 8 officer said you were very much across what was going on in 9 the office? 10 A. Yes, in the administration, I do, yes. 11 12 Q. You would have also heard, especially from Mr Hanna, 13 that there was some real hostility between you and him, at 14 least following the merger between the BLF and the CFMEU? 15 A. You mean David Hanna's evidence? 16 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. Which version? 19 20 Q. Well, do you say there is no hostility between you and 21 Mr Hanna? 22 A. I wouldn't call it hostility. It is that - at the end 23 of the day we had a good, a reasonable working 24 relationship. I wouldn't call it a hostile working 25 relationship. Sometimes we didn't agree on the strategy of 26 the Union, some of the decisions of the Union, but at the 27 end of the day we worked together and we did the best that 28 we could for the interests of the members. 29 30 Q. When he came across he was the President and you were 31 the Secretary? 32 A. That's correct. 33 34 Q. And the President really has no effective day-to-day 35 power, that's the position? 36 A. No. Part of the negotiations with the amalgamation is 37 that David had responsibility for some of the campaigns. 38 He was responsible and in charge and had the autonomy about 39 the training coordinators. He was in charge of the safety 40 guys. He was involved in a lot of the politics of the 41 Union. He was also heavily involved in a number of the 42 Boards of the Union, so he was representing and also had - 43 he could make decisions, and also he was my 2IC. 44 45 Q. You were above him hierarchically? 46 A. Correct. 47


1 Q. Mr Williams said, page 250, line 24: 2 3 Nothing happens in the CFMEU office that 4 Michael doesn't oversee. 5 6 Would you agree with that comment? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. You would be aware that in 2014 the Royal Commission 10 into Trade Union Governance and Corruption was announced? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. When did you become aware of that? 14 A. That would have been around mid-March. 15 16 Q. That you even heard that it was -- 17 A. No, there were comments in the media about the 18 decision of the Abbott Government to introduce 19 a Royal Commission, so it was well known publically that 20 a Royal Commission was coming. They talked about who the 21 head of the Royal Commission was going to be and then Terms 22 of Reference and everything else developed from there. 23 24 Q. From about mid March were you aware that Terms of 25 Reference included, amongst other unions, the CFMEU? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. Were you aware from about mid March that it would be 29 likely that the CFMEU would be required to provide 30 documents at some point, or some points, to the 31 Royal Commission? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. Do you recall receiving any information about a notice 35 to produce being served on the CFMEU the first time, the 36 first notice that the CFMEU received? 37 A. I remember getting the first one, yes. 38 39 Q. Where were you and how did you receive that 40 information? 41 A. To the best of my recollection, I saw the Notice to 42 Produce probably about later in the morning of 2 April. 43 44 Q. Is that the first time you ever heard about it? You 45 did answer that by saying, "To the best of my recollection" 46 you saw it. Did you actually hear about it before you saw 47 it?


1 A. There was a lot of people talking about the 2 Royal Commission. We knew they'd gone through a previous 3 Royal Commission, that at some stage there'll be a Notice 4 to Produce in respect of documentation, whatever that 5 documentation may be. 6 7 Q. Yes. Did you actually hear about the notice to 8 produce before you saw it? 9 A. No, not - no. 10 11 Q. No? 12 A. In respect of the Notice to Produce for the CFMEU? 13 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. We were expecting a Notice to Produce to come at some 16 stage. 17 18 Q. Did you hear that one had arrived some time on 19 1 April? 20 A. No. 21 22 Q. Were you in the office on 1 April? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. Did you have a computer in your office on 1 April? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. Were you able to use email on 1 April 2014? 29 A. If I used the email, I could have -- 30 31 Q. You are adept at using emails? 32 A. Reasonable, yes. 33 34 Q. That was part of your modes of communication as 35 at April 2014? 36 A. One of the communication - emails, phones, whatever, 37 verbal. 38 39 Q. Do you recall whether or not you looked at your 40 computer, in particular, your Outlook email program on 41 1 April 2014? 42 A. I may have looked at it - I had a number of meetings 43 in the morning. There were Board meetings that day. I may 44 have looked at it. I can't be sure. I know later in the 45 day when we were involved in the filing and a few other 46 things, I didn't look at my email, no. 47


1 Q. You are clear about that, are you? 2 A. Yes, because I was busy doing other things. 3 4 Q. Why were you busy doing other things? 5 A. Because we had made a decision to look at reorganising 6 the filing system within the Union and we were having 7 a general clean up. 8 9 Q. Did you deliberately decide not to look at your email 10 on the afternoon and/or evening of 1 April 2014? 11 A. No. It is not unusual for me not to look at my email 12 for a day, it's not unusual. 13 14 Q. Did you instruct anyone else in the office not to look 15 at their email on the afternoon or evening of 1 April 2014? 16 A. No. 17 18 Q. Did you give any instruction to anyone or any people 19 in the office on the afternoon or evening of April 2014 not 20 to receive phone calls? 21 A. I did say - and I can't say who I said it to - not to 22 disturb me whilst we were doing the clean up and I was 23 going through the filing system. 24 25 Q. What time did you make a decision to go through the 26 filing system and do the clean up? 27 A. I'd been going through the cleaning up of the 28 organisation, of the system the week before when all the 29 stuff came from the BLF, and there was a lot of stuff, on 30 the basis that they were closing down. I went through 31 a lot of their material on the Friday. I went through 32 a lot of material on the Monday. I made a decision Monday 33 night that we needed to have all the stuff removed from the 34 Union. 35 36 Q. "All the stuff" - what do you mean by that, sir? 37 A. I went through - we hadn't done the general clean up 38 within the CFMEU that we do every year. The reason being 39 is that the BLF was supposed to come in in January of that 40 year; it didn't happen. There was a bit of a delay in the 41 State Industrial Relations Commission in Queensland, so 42 over a couple of months we all agreed that 31 March would 43 be the end of the BLF in respect to their office closing. 44 1 April was always going to be the day that everyone was 45 going to be under the one payroll, under the one system, so 46 1 April had a lot of symbolism. 47


1 Q. And it was 1 April you decided, even though these 2 major payroll changes were occurring on that day, that that 3 was the day that you'd do a major clean up; is that what 4 you are telling the Commission? 5 A. No. If I could have done it earlier, I would have. 6 When the BLF were coming in we were going to move the 7 filing system around anyway. One area was going to be 8 obsolete. There was going to be one area that was going to 9 be used and we were going to bring the compacters over from 10 the BLF. Also, we couldn't do anything because we didn't 11 know what material and documentation was coming from the 12 BLF, so if we could have done it earlier, it would have 13 been better. The material came in the week previous, 14 I think it came in about Thursday. There was a phenomenal 15 amount of documents that came in and before we could do 16 anything from our end, I needed to go through the 17 documentation that came in from the BLF. 18 19 Q. Are you saying that you went through the documentation 20 on a day other than 1 April or in addition to 1 April? 21 A. I started going through the documentation on the 22 Friday, Friday, the 28th. I probably started at about 23 11 o'clock, probably went through till about 7 o'clock that 24 day. 25 26 Q. Just you, sir? 27 A. Yeah. Yeah, it's not unusual for me to do this type 28 of stuff because I do it every year, but never mind. 29 30 Q. Sorry, it's not unusual for you to do what type of 31 stuff? 32 A. A clean up. 33 34 Q. Then what did you do? 35 A. And then on the Monday, because I didn't complete the 36 task, I went through the rest of the material that had come 37 over from the BLF. It took me about another three to 38 four hours in the afternoon. I had finished that and then 39 what I did is I then went through - because we'd moved the 40 organisers from upstairs to downstairs, I added to the pile 41 the old election material from the September '13 election. 42 I also added documents dealing with campaigns and then on 43 the Monday - sorry, on the Tuesday we just needed to finish 44 the rest. 45 46 Q. You would have heard evidence from members of your 47 staff over the last few days?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. From what I understood they were saying, they have 4 only nominated one day as a day that they were involved in 5 sorting or moving documents. They haven't mentioned any 6 other day. Do you say it was only you on the other days? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. What do you say occurred on 1 April? 10 A. On 1 April, because the vast majority of the 11 documentation was the BLF, we had to finalise - because the 12 office just looked terrible. There was documentation in 13 number 14 everywhere, there were boxes everywhere. There 14 were piles of stuff on the floor because I had actually 15 gone through that material. We needed to finalise the 16 filing system because we needed to do our clean up and so 17 I thought the target was always 1 April and I was going to 18 meet that target. 19 20 Q. You were aware at the time you were doing this, 21 though, that it was likely that the Royal Commission would 22 be seeking documents from your organisation - yes? 23 A. Yes, but that wasn't my priority at the time, it was 24 the functioning and the administration of the Union, and 25 because those couple of months were just mayhem, the 26 priority was to actually start moving forward and 27 especially during the months of February and March was that 28 1 April was going to be the start of the new Union. 29 30 Q. Do you say you were sorting through the BLF material? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Were you taking each file out and having a good look, 34 were you? 35 A. Yes. Yes. It was not a very organised system that 36 they had. They had a whole heap of boxes. Probably about 37 20 to 25 of the boxes were industrial gazettes and they 38 were big removal boxes, quite heavy actually. There was 39 probably about -- 40 41 Q. How big were they? 42 A. Removal boxes. (Indicates) 43 44 Q. Are you going from the floor there or from your desk? 45 A. Oh, from here. 46 47 Q. Is that about a metre?


1 A. Probably. 2 3 Q. Yes. And how wide? 4 A. Probably that wide. (Indicates) 5 6 Q. About magazine length? 7 A. A bit bigger than magazine length. 8 9 Q. What about the other dimension of it? 10 A. Probably that wide. (Indicates). Like a normal, 11 I would argue, removal box. 12 13 Q. There were some of those with magazines in them? 14 A. No, no, industrial gazettes. 15 16 Q. Sorry, I beg your pardon. 17 A. Two sets of industrial gazettes came. 18 19 Q. Do you remember how many boxes of those? 20 A. At least 20, I think it could have been 25. 21 22 Q. Did you go through all those, did you? 23 A. I opened them up. Thankfully, most of the gazettes 24 were actually in one line, the majority, which was useful 25 because I didn't have to pick them up, and there was 26 a couple over the other side that were leaning up against 27 the wall. 28 29 Q. You didn't take them out of the box, is that what you 30 are saying? 31 A. No, I opened the boxes. Some things were marked that 32 came from the BLs, like the wage claims, the gazettes, it 33 had "GAZ" on the boxes. A lot of other stuff wasn't 34 marked, that was a pain in the butt, but yeah, and the 35 gazettes were in the heavier, like, the removal-type boxes, 36 the stronger boxes. 37 38 Q. You opened the boxes. You saw that what appeared to 39 be in there were gazettes and closed them again? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. Did you look underneath them? 43 A. Do you mean under the box? 44 45 Q. No, underneath the gazettes, what you could see? 46 A. No. I opened up the boxes. The gazettes were three 47 different sizes. You had the really old gazettes, like,


1 I don't know, about that size. You had three different - 2 and they were three different colours of how the gazettes 3 were bound. I went through the boxes, it didn't take me 4 very long, but yeah, I went through the boxes. I would 5 lift it to see what was in the box. That's just my nature, 6 I'm a bit anal in that way. 7 8 Q. You did this all by yourself, the Secretary of the 9 Queensland Branch of the Construction and General Division 10 of the CFMEU? 11 A. I've always got involved in the administration side, 12 with the legal stuff, the industrial stuff and the EBAs, 13 and also the wage claims. I have always left the financial 14 matters in respect of doing the reporting and other stuff, 15 I do sign off and things, I do get involved, and the 16 membership mainly to Paula. We'd had this relationship for 17 nearly 15 years, so it's been there a long time. I wanted 18 to know what was in the boxes of the BLF. I was actually 19 quite surprised about the volume of stuff coming because 20 when I used to work side by side with their organisation, 21 I didn't see a lot of reporting and record management that 22 I thought and I was surprised about the volume of 23 documentation. 24 25 Q. Right. 26 A. I like to know what was in that material. That was 27 probably the longest quantum of time that I actually went 28 through all that material, because at the end of the day 29 was that if some of that material had to be put in our new 30 filing system, storage system, it was never going to happen 31 on the basis that, you know, there was a lot of stuff that 32 was in there. I was interested to see what they brought 33 over, you know, any historical information or labour 34 history or whatever was in that documentation. There was 35 a lot of stuff that wasn't documentation, it was 36 stationery, cups, plates, there was a bit of that, so 37 I went through those boxes. 38 39 Q. Did you ask Mr Hanna to assist you? 40 A. No. 41 42 Q. Did you ask anyone else to assist you? I am talking 43 now prior to 1 April. 44 A. I spoke to Paula on a few occasions. When I was going 45 through the wage claims I came across - the wage claims 46 were - a lot of them were in these plastic boxes and it was 47 just paper, but they - I also found these other wage claims


1 that were actually in files and so I asked Paula about the 2 wage claim system of the BLF. It had an unusual system in 3 that they put the wage claims into the system after the 4 event, which was a bit weird, and the ones that were in the 5 - which we kept, there was about 20 - oh, it might be 16, 6 I think it was, files that we kept which weren't actually 7 put into the system, but there was a record, there was an 8 electronic record of all the wage claims that the BLs had 9 completed, and we had about 16 to 20 files which Paula 10 took, but anything that I was looking at, whether it was 11 enterprise bargaining or anything else, is that I was 12 talking to Paula about whether we actually had a record of 13 it. The other -- 14 15 Q. Can I just stop you there. Unless I misunderstood 16 Ms Masters' evidence, she has only given evidence of 17 conversations with you in relation to sorting out documents 18 on one day, not more than one day. Do you say it occurred 19 on more than one day? 20 A. Yes, I spoke to Paula about the BLF stuff previous - 21 1 April was predominantly cleaning up our side of it which 22 was never going to take too long. 23 24 Q. Why were you talking to Paula about the BL wage claim 25 system? 26 A. Because I wanted to know whether we needed to retain 27 the material or the documentation. A lot of their wage 28 claims were very old. Some of them went back 15 years. 29 Not a lot of wage claims, there was no sequence of years 30 you had to go through it all, it was, again, a pain in the 31 butt, but to ensure that we actually had an electronic 32 record and I'd asked some of these questions of Paula 33 before they came over about how their systems operated, but 34 I was just checking with Paula about the wage claims. 35 36 Q. Are you telling the Commission that you went through 37 every piece of paper in these wage claim files, are you? 38 A. Yeah. Well, I couldn't say that I - I mean, I've got 39 to be - I probably didn't - I went through all the files. 40 I went through the bits of paper. We had all these work 41 benches. I put it down and take them out because the white 42 boxes or the plastic boxes were about that high. 43 (Indicates) I would go through it and I would just go 44 through all the wage claims. 45 46 Q. One page after another, did you? 47 A. That's why it took so - yes, it took a fair while.


1 2 Q. Where did you do that, sir? 3 A. In 14. 4 5 Q. In the foyer, is that what you are saying? 6 A. Not in the -- 7 8 Q. I beg your pardon, I misheard you. In 14? 9 A. 14, yes. 10 11 Q. Where in 14? 12 A. As you come through the front door there was a whole 13 heap of boxes on one row as you come in towards the 14 entrance of 16. It was a whole heap of documentation, 15 a big bundle of other boxes as you came in, depending which 16 way. If you come in this way it would be to your right, 17 but there's, like, a bench space to the wall where you have 18 plenty of room to actually go through the documents. 19 20 Q. You stood there or sat there? 21 A. I stood there, there were no seats there. 22 23 Q. You did that for how long on what days? 24 A. Friday, I started probably about 11. That was my 25 biggest day when I got through a lot of the material. I 26 didn't get through it all till probably about 7 o'clock, 27 6.30, 7 o'clock. 28 29 Q. Just standing there, between 11 and 7, going through 30 each piece of paper, is that what you are telling the 31 Commission? 32 A. I might have missed one or two as I'm going through, 33 but the whole thing is I was going through their wage 34 claims. As I said, I was interested to find out what 35 material that they had. 36 37 Q. At that time when you were doing that, you didn't know 38 whether or not the Royal Commission may require this 39 information; is that right? 40 A. That didn't come into my thinking because the priority 41 was to find out what was in the documentation first. The 42 priority was to find out whether we needed to keep 43 a hardcopy or electronic version of the documents. 44 I wanted to find out whether we needed to retain any of the 45 material in the box before any decisions were made about 46 what was kept and what had to go. I needed to know what 47 was in there. That was my priority, to actually work out


1 what was in there first. 2 3 Q. Can I just clarify - we are talking about which 4 Friday? 5 A. The 28th. 6 7 Q. Do you accept from me that the Friday before 1 April 8 is - 28 March 2014? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Do you say you were in the office all day? 12 A. No. I did a meeting, a mid-morning meeting at 13 Westfields at Garden City. 14 15 Q. A mid-morning meeting? What is mid morning to you? 16 A. 9.30. 17 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. That only probably went until about - maybe 10.30 20 I left the site. I don't know before that, if I had any 21 meetings before that. 22 23 Q. And then after that you came back? 24 A. I was clear for the day. 25 26 Q. You were clear for the day? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. And then you finished doing was it just the wage 30 material on the Friday from the BLs? 31 A. No. There were about eight to 10 boxes of wage 32 claims. The EBAs -- 33 34 Q. Could I just stop you there. Eight to 10 of what 35 sized boxes? 36 A. They were more in these plastic clear boxes where you 37 had one of those, I don't know - you get cheap lids from $2 38 shops, I think. 39 40 Q. Eight to 10 boxes of those? 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. And then you went on to say EBAs? 44 A. Yes. I went into the enterprise agreements. Again, 45 some of them were in, like, cardboard boxes, some were in 46 the actual clear boxes again, the cheaper ones. I went 47 through those documents. A bit unusual is that they had


1 a lot of current agreements and then there was this massive 2 gap of nothing. They had a lot of project agreements from 3 the late 1970s. They had a few enterprise agreements in 4 the '90s. A lot of it was pretty old. There was this big 5 gap of nothing. It was like from the late '70s up until 6 the early '90s and then there were the more recent ones, 7 but in between there was nothing. 8 9 Q. Did you sort them in some way? 10 A. They were a lot easier because they were in 11 agreements. Again, like - again, no order, just like 12 someone has just, you know, closed them down, just dumped 13 them in a box. 14 15 Q. Did you audit them? 16 A. I didn't audit - no, I didn't write anything down, no. 17 I just went through the documents. 18 19 Q. Did you sort the ones you wanted out from the ones you 20 didn't want, or did you decide you didn't want any of them? 21 A. No. Again, I spoke to Paula. The thing is we had 22 electronic - the only thing that interested me, because the 23 other stuff was really old, really old, actually, was the 24 current round of agreements that they had in their system. 25 80 per cent of them we had already electronic anyway 26 because a lot of the agreements are co-signed CFMEU/BLF. I 27 also spoke to Paula about the BLF. You know, there were 28 some areas like the concreters, steel fixers, agreements 29 that were in there. Again, Paula said that they had 30 electronic copies of those agreements, not just on the BLF 31 system but you could actually get it through the 32 Commission. There was no - they were just EBAs. There 33 were no notes or calculations or anything, any 34 documentation to that effect. 35 36 Q. Are you saying to the Commission you went through 37 every page to see whether or not there were any markings or 38 anything? 39 A. No, I'm not going to - I didn't go through - like, 40 open up a project agreement or an enterprise agreement and 41 check every page. I had the documents and I looked at what 42 the documents were on the front cover, but I didn't 43 actually then flick every single page of that one 44 enterprise agreement, no. 45 46 Q. How do you know whether or not, for example, there 47 might not have been handwritten changes or markings or


1 comments in the margins in relation to those EBAs? 2 A. Could have been but I didn't see any. 3 4 Q. You didn't look, is that what you're saying? 5 A. I looked at the agreements, the cover and that, and 6 there was nothing there that - I mean, in the enterprise 7 bargaining area most of the stuff was way old. 8 9 Q. But you are saying you didn't look on every page to 10 see whether or not there may have been notes, markings up, 11 comments, additions, alterations, any of that? 12 A. No. 13 14 Q. You don't know whether or not, indeed, those documents 15 would have been able to have been replicated elsewhere, or 16 were replicated elsewhere, I should say? 17 A. Well, as I said, I went through the documents and 18 I was unconcerned, as long as we had an electronic record 19 of the document. Most of the - probably 80 per cent of the 20 agreements were a long time ago. I wasn't worried about 21 it, no. 22 23 Q. You weren't aware whether or not there were copies 24 able to be sourced elsewhere of those particular hardcopy 25 documents in the form that they were because you didn't 26 look to see whether there were handwritten changes or not? 27 A. I didn't look for handwritten stuff in between it, 28 like, I didn't think there'd be any spookies in there, but 29 I did inquire of Paula to make sure that we had a record of 30 the agreements, especially the last round. The old ones 31 I was not concerned at all. 32 33 Q. So it didn't concern you that it was possible that the 34 Royal Commission may require documents of that nature 35 during the course of its inquiry in 2014? 36 A. I wasn't concerned with what I saw. At the end of the 37 day, I thought I did a reasonably thorough investigation of 38 those boxes. We had an electronic record of all the 39 current agreements. It's quite easy - you can go through 40 the Commission elsewhere and get access to those older 41 documents, they're on the public record. I wasn't that - 42 I wasn't concerned in respect to what I saw, no. 43 44 Q. What else did you do in relation to what you say your 45 sorting task involved? 46 A. The next one I did that day was that there was a lot 47 of boxes, probably --


1 2 Q. Are we still on Friday? 3 A. Yeah, yeah, I did a lot on Friday. There was a lot of 4 boxes that had the industry funds; again, a lot of stuff 5 missing. They were mainly - the funds, and I'll elaborate 6 what was in there, was the Bus superannuation, the income 7 protection. The other one was the B.E.R.T Fund. There was 8 some stuff in the welfare trust which was one of the funds. 9 They had, like, trust deeds in there, they had directors' 10 manuals, there were Board reports, but again, all over the 11 shop; for some reason, a lot of stuff from 2003 and 2004. 12 Yeah, quite a few boxes with that. They were all compiled 13 together, thankfully, but again, check with Paula. We had 14 a record in the Union because we were on all those Boards. 15 I have provided that to the Royal Commission anyway, all 16 that material. We had a copy of the trust deeds, we had 17 a copy of the Director manuals and we had the Board 18 reports. 19 20 Q. Did you go through page by page of these documents? 21 A. No. I opened up the folder because a lot of them were 22 in these wide folders. I didn't see any sticky notes. 23 I couldn't say that I went through and flicked every page, 24 no, I'm not going to say that I did. 25 26 Q. You don't know whether or not there were, for example, 27 handwritten notes or other notes, or unique documents in 28 there because you didn't look, did you? 29 A. No, I looked - I opened all the folders. You've got 30 to remember a lot of these folders, they might be big 31 folders but they'll only have a bit of paper in them. 32 I didn't see anything irregular. I wasn't too concerned 33 because we had a record of all this information anyway. 34 35 Q. But you don't know, do you, sir, whether or not you 36 had a record of all this information if you didn't look 37 through each page? 38 A. At the end of the day, it was BLF documentation. The 39 only concern that I had was to make sure that the CFMEU had 40 all that material. Again, I wasn't the authorised officer 41 of the BLF and wasn't in charge of the BLF. My only 42 concern or responsibility was to ensure that we had an 43 electronic record of all those Board reports, which we had, 44 and, as you know, the Royal Commission has got all that. 45 That was my major concern. 46 47 Q. Sir, you were taking charge of the documents of the


1 BLF because your organisations were merging or had merged, 2 or were about to formally merge, yes? 3 A. You've got to remember that there was a lot of -- 4 5 Q. Yes? 6 A. I'm sorry? 7 8 Q. You were taking charge of the documents of the BLF 9 because your organisations were merging, yes? 10 A. And that's the reason why I went through the material. 11 12 Q. Well, exactly. Are you now saying that it really 13 wasn't your responsibility? You said, "I wasn't the 14 authorised officer of the BLF and I wasn't in charge of the 15 BLF". What are you trying to say? 16 A. My concern was making - because there was a lot of 17 duplication. It's like anything - both unions work in the 18 same industry. There's a lot of commonality in respect of 19 the Boards, there's a lot of commonality in respect of 20 agreements, there's a lot of commonality in a lot of areas. 21 The last thing I wanted to have in the organisation was 22 just paper just sitting there clawing up space, as long as 23 we had an electronic record. If what was written down in 24 some of this stuff was - wasn't - I wasn't the 25 decision-maker at the time. At the end of the day, 26 I didn't think there was any need to keep these 27 documentations as we had an electronic record of them. 28 29 Q. But as I have asked you before, sir, you don't know 30 because you didn't look at every page, whether or not there 31 were unique handwritten notes or unique documents within 32 those pieces of paper? 33 A. I didn't see any unique documents. I'm not sure what 34 you mean by "unique". 35 36 Q. You didn't look through every page, so you don't know, 37 do you? 38 A. Not through every page, no. 39 40 Q. So it's possible, sir, that as at that time you 41 couldn't be certain that the Royal Commission wouldn't 42 require documents of that nature sometime that year? 43 A. In my view, I'd had a thorough look at the 44 documentation. Was it a forensic audit of every single 45 document? Probably not, but at the end of the day I was 46 comfortable and as has been shown, with the 23 Notices to 47 Produce to this Royal Commission, you've got every


1 documentation, membership, financial record, of the Union, 2 some of it back to 2009, so you've actually got everything 3 from this Union, and I was comfortable that I'd done a good 4 examination of the documentation from the BLF. 5 6 Q. From a governance point of view, if you had become ill 7 or unavailable, how was your forensic audit recorded such 8 that someone else, who was needing to satisfy themselves of 9 what was or wasn't in the organisation, would become aware 10 of it? 11 A. I did raise with David about all the stuff that come - 12 and this was on the Tuesday - that come to the Union. He 13 didn't have a clue. He said that all the stuff had been 14 put together by Lisa Stiller. I know that Paula Masters 15 and Lisa had been talking quite often about the 16 documentation, finances, computers, furniture, you name it, 17 about what was coming from their organisation over to ours. 18 19 Q. You said just earlier: 20 21 In my view, I'd had a thorough look at the 22 documentation. 23 24 It was a forensic audit of every single document. 25 A. No, I didn't say - not a forensic audit of every 26 single document. 27 28 Q. I am reading the transcript, I beg your pardon. You 29 say: 30 31 I had a thorough look at the documentation, 32 it was not a forensic audit. 33 34 But your thorough look, you have already indicated, did not 35 include looking at every document - yes? 36 A. I looked at every document with the wage claims, but 37 I didn't actually do - with the wage claims, I went through 38 every page because you had no choice. With the enterprise 39 agreements I went through the document, I didn't actually 40 open every single page. It depended on what the document 41 was, but again I will say I did a thorough examination that 42 I thought was -- 43 44 Q. You have mentioned another category with the Bus super 45 and those types of documents, trust deeds, directors' 46 manuals and the like? 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. Board reports? 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. You didn't go through every page of those documents? 6 A. Not every page, no. 7 8 Q. You don't know whether or not, for example, there were 9 notes written on them by Board members, directors, and the 10 like, in relation to any of those issues, is that the 11 position? 12 A. No, I didn't see any, like, stick-ons. I know 13 a couple of folders had nothing in them. 14 15 Q. But sir, you didn't look to see on every page whether 16 or not there were handwritten notes on them, short or 17 lengthy, on any of those pages; that's right? 18 A. I wasn't too concerned. Most of the industry fund 19 stuff that came across was pretty much before 2004 and 20 I knew within our Union that we had all that material in 21 respect to the industry funds, so -- 22 23 Q. But you can't -- 24 A. Most of the material from the BLF was quite old. 25 26 Q. You cannot satisfy yourself, from the nature of what 27 you did, that you were able to see whether or not there 28 were handwritten notes or other documents in amongst the 29 documents that you only saw the outside of; that's right? 30 A. I was satisfied in regards to going through the 31 documentation that I thought - to make a call in respect of 32 whether the documents should be kept or not. 33 34 Q. Is that the sum total of what you did on that Friday? 35 A. That was the fair bulk of the boxes. 36 37 Q. Did you make a note of the boxes that you looked at? 38 A. I knew what I needed to finish off. 39 40 Q. Did you make a note? 41 A. I didn't make a note, I had a mental note, but -- 42 43 Q. Did you make a note at all of anything that you had 44 done that day? 45 A. It wasn't hard -- 46 47 Q. No, did you make a note of anything at all you did


1 that day? 2 A. No, I didn't make a note, no. 3 4 Q. What else did you do in relation to the documents on 5 any other day? 6 A. On the Monday I finished the rest of the pile. I 7 found a number of boxes. There were a lot of boxes all in 8 different shapes, cardboard boxes. A lot of them were 9 squashed and stuff. It had old receipt books in those 10 boxes, probably maybe five or seven boxes, and they were 11 really old receipt books. I don't know if I actually kept 12 one as a bit of a memento of history, but a lot of them 13 were well over 20 years old. 14 15 Q. A lot of them were but not all, is that what you say? 16 A. I can't say every single receipt book that I looked 17 at, but I took out quite a few. Most of them were pre - 18 a lot of them around 1995. There was a lot around 1997. 19 20 Q. But you can't say you looked at every single receipt 21 book, is what you just said. Yes? 22 A. Not every single receipt book, no. 23 24 Q. How do you remember these details now without having 25 taken a note? 26 A. I've got a reasonable memory. 27 28 Q. How would the organisation, though, know what you had 29 done in relation to these documents, apart from your 30 memory? 31 A. At the end of the day, I'm in charge of the 32 organisation. I take responsibility in respect of the 33 administration of the Union, I had done for many, many 34 years. I was comfortable that the analysis that I did of 35 the documentation, whether it was of value to be kept for 36 the Union, so I was comfortable with it. 37 38 Q. You said you finished the rest of the pile on the 39 Monday. What rest of what pile? 40 A. This was over in the corner where a lot of the boxes, 41 which took a big area up, some of them were stacked on top 42 of each other. The main pile had the enterprise 43 agreements, the wage claims, the Board stuff, the old 44 membership receipt books. There was a few boxes dealing 45 with old journals - sorry, not old journals, new journals, 46 sorry. There were two boxes of the last journal of the 47 BLF, which we didn't keep that because we already had


1 a record of the BLF journals anyway. We had boxes - there 2 were some boxes that had a mishmash of stuff, like, I found 3 a couple of demarcation files in there which we kept. 4 5 Q. You were doing this on the Monday? 6 A. Monday, yes. 7 8 Q. What time did you start? 9 A. Probably about 3 or 3.30, around then. 10 11 Q. What time did you finish on the Monday? 12 A. Probably about 7, 7.30. 13 14 Q. Were you the last to leave that day? 15 A. I don't know. A lot of staff work back. 16 17 Q. A lot of staff worked back on the Monday, did they? 18 A. No, no, a lot of our staff will be there 6.30, 7. 19 Paula, she worked until 7.30, 8, it's not unusual; they all 20 work heaps. 21 22 Q. Were you standing that whole time? 23 A. Yeah, there was nowhere to sit around there. 24 25 Q. You didn't think to bring a chair? 26 A. No, I don't mind getting up and about, no. 27 28 Q. But you were just standing there between about 3.30 to 29 about 7.30? 30 A. Yes. I would take a box over to an area, open it up, 31 explore what was in the box; take stuff out. There was 32 also a lot of stationery come over. There was, like, not 33 so much pens and highlighters, but a lot of plastic covers. 34 What else was there? There was a couple of boxes with cups 35 and plates, there was no cutlery. So, yes, just did the 36 rest of the - there was a bit of a mix-match. There were 37 boxes too which we spoke to Paula about, we didn't keep, 38 that just had old folders which were stuck in boxes, 39 nothing in them, I went through them, we just chucked. It 40 was a real unusual collection of stuff. 41 42 Q. So by 7 -- 43 A. Plus I also found another box of a couple of picture 44 frames and stuff of old BLF Secretaries, I think in the 45 mid '60s, I think that stuff was. 46 47 Q. You chucked that, did you?


1 A. No. 2 3 Q. You kept that? 4 A. I was hoping to find a lot more. It was pretty much - 5 I think there were two or three pictures. I know there was 6 definitely two. That was about the only prior - you know, 7 historical stuff that I got from all that material. 8 9 Q. So, you had finished everything, had you, by the end 10 of Monday, 7.30 or so? 11 A. I did probably about - probably about not quite an 12 hour and then I just - 'cause I knew that this stuff 13 needed to - it had no value, a lot of it was just crap, to 14 be honest, I got the - which we do every clean-out - 15 I went and had a look at the campaign material upstairs. 16 Because we had still the boxes and stuff - they had moved 17 the boxes down - some of them they didn't, actually, I had 18 to go upstairs and grab a couple of boxes - election 19 material from the 2013 election, which were useless, so 20 I added probably - probably about half a dozen boxes to the 21 pile. Not big boxes, but they were pretty heavy, about 22 that size (indicates). Also chucked in piles some of the - 23 we have a lot of campaigns, the CFMEU, some of that stuff 24 was outdated and of no value, and we do that every year as 25 part of the clean-out. 26 27 Q. Can I stop you there. When you threw that out every 28 year as part of the clean-out, where did you normally have 29 those documents taken that you didn't need? 30 A. It depends on the year. Normally what you do is you 31 might have a couple of ute loads and you'd just take it to 32 the tip. Historically, you know, we had a big one in 2010 33 when we moved. We had, I don't know, trailer loads of 34 documents that went to the Nudgee tip because we just - 35 they have no value, so it's not an unusual - depending on 36 the year, and some years you'd have a bit more because 37 you'd have EBA files because you have different rounds of 38 the campaigns and stuff. Some years you would have more 39 than others; sometimes you have elections. 40 41 Q. Take EBA documents to the tip, did you? 42 A. To the tip? 43 44 Q. Yes. 45 A. The BLF stuff was sent to the tip. 46 47 Q. No, in the past, did you ever take EBA documents to


1 the tip? 2 A. Yeah, yeah, no dramas. 3 4 Q. No dramas? 5 A. Yeah. 6 7 Q. Didn't think it should be securely destroyed? 8 A. No. When we do the clean-out, anything - 'cause the 9 Union is a membership-based organisation, you have a lot of 10 membership information and you have a lot of financial 11 stuff that we either shred or we put in, what do you call 12 them, the destruction bins, whatever you call them. But 13 stuff like enterprise agreements, as long as we've got an 14 electronic record of them - not all of them would always go 15 is the ones that have files with notes, or any type of 16 other stuff associated. It might be industrial disputes or 17 some campaign on whatever it might be, and we keep those 18 records. 19 20 Q. If files had notes, you'd keep them? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. In order to know whether or not they had notes, you 24 would have to look through them page by page to see that - 25 yes? 26 A. In respect of the CFMEU, we will always keep files - 27 depending on the age; depending on what's in the 28 agreements. The CFMEU has a lot of different areas: mixed 29 industries, construction, local government, you name it - 30 government. We generally retain a lot of agreements. The 31 problem with the Union is that space is always a concern. 32 Each year is never the same in respect to clean-up, but 33 some years is more than others. 34 35 Q. So, you think it is important to keep documents that 36 are unique, such as notes - yes? 37 A. Generally, yes. 38 39 Q. You weren't in a position, were you, in relation to 40 the boxes of documents, in relation to the BLF documents, 41 to check whether or not there were unique documents such as 42 notes in them; is that right? 43 A. As I said, I was comfortable about the analysis of 44 checking the documentation. I thought it was very thorough 45 for the wage claims and most of the material, because I did 46 every single page of every single document, I'm going to be 47 honest and say I didn't, that I was comfortable about what


1 needed to be retained and what needed not to. I have been 2 doing that scenario for many, many years. The Union has 3 extremely good governance. I've never had any concerns 4 with any of the government agencies about our reporting and 5 the provision of documentation. At the end of the day, 6 when you look at documentation, other information and 7 material, and whatever you might be looking at, you make 8 a judgment call. I was comfortable about the material that 9 I was looking at, especially with the BLF stuff. 10 11 Q. In relation to governance, though, sir, we can only 12 take your word as to what you say was kept and what you say 13 was not kept, because you kept no record of that exercise; 14 that's right, isn't it? 15 A. At the end of the day -- 16 17 Q. Is that right, sir? 18 A. As the person responsible in respect of the 19 administration of the Union, I have been comfortable about 20 the governance of the Union. The Union governance is 21 extremely strong. Clean-outs that we have done every year 22 have never been a drama. I know people are trying to 23 sensationalise this particular one. It was an unusual 24 event. You don't have an organisation that closes up every 25 hundred years. As I said, we moved five years ago and we 26 had lots of stuff that was of no value. The BLF did the 27 clean-out, they brought stuff here, I retained some of it, 28 not a lot, but this was always going to happen because the 29 organisations were coming together. It was a call whether 30 certain stuff should be kept or not. 31 32 Q. Can I come to 1 April, sir. 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. Were you aware whether or not the cameras were covered 36 over during the course of that day? 37 A. No. 38 39 Q. You say that you are the sort of leader that knows 40 what's going on in the office; that's right? 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. Well, you have heard evidence from more than one 44 person, indeed, a number of people, that the cameras in 45 your office were covered over, and you say you didn't know 46 that? 47 A. I didn't see anything covered over. If it was,


1 I would have had it removed. When we were doing the 2 clean-out, we're on a busy road. I couldn't see the point 3 of covering things over anyway. There was nothing secret 4 about it. I know you are trying to make it look secret, it 5 wasn't. I found out about it two weeks later. My view at 6 the time two weeks later, I thought "pretty pathetic", 7 typical Hanna about secrecy. We do clean-outs every year, 8 it was no big deal. David made that decision. I didn't 9 make that decision. I didn't see anything covered up at 10 all. The people around me, I know some people - I heard 11 the evidence - say they were covered up. I never saw it 12 and I never saw it that night and, if I did, I would have 13 had it removed. 14 15 MS McNAUGHTON: Is that a convenient time? 16 17 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. The hearing will resume at 18 11.45am 19 20 SHORT ADJOURNMENT 21 22 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton? 23 24 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Sir, how many mobile phones do you 25 have? 26 A. One mobile phone. Me, personally? 27 28 Q. Yes. You, personally? 29 A. One now. 30 31 Q. How many do you use regularly in the course of your 32 work? 33 A. Regularly, one. 34 35 Q. Do you ever use more than one? 36 A. I've used other mobile phones, yes. 37 38 Q. At the end of March and early April 2014, did you use 39 more than one phone or only one phone? 40 A. One phone. 41 42 Q. Just one? 43 A. I think one phone, yeah. 44 45 Q. Is it the same number now as you had then? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. Would you be kind enough to write that number down for 2 me. Could you also write the registration number of your 3 vehicle at that time as well. 4 A. (Witness does as requested) 5 6 Q. Yes, thank you. 7 8 (Shown to Counsel Assisting and other parties) 9 10 MS McNAUGHTON: If that could be received into evidence, 11 please, as a restricted exhibit? 12 13 THE COMMISSIONER: As a confidential exhibit? 14 15 MS McNAUGHTON: Confidential, yes. 16 17 THE COMMISSIONER: Document Disposal Case Study MFI-13 18 will be a piece of paper recording Mr Ravbar's mobile 19 telephone number as at April 2014 and his vehicle 20 registration number. 21 22 DOCUMENT DISPOSAL CASE STUDY MFI-13 - PIECE OF PAPER 23 RECORDING MOBILE TELEPHONE NUMBER AND VEHICLE REGISTRATION 24 NUMBER AS AT APRIL 2014 OF MICHAEL RAVBAR 25 26 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Sir, just to be clear, that is at the 27 end of March and also of April? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. Can I just clarify, you were going in some detail as 31 to your activities on 28 March 2014, the Friday. 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. Are you quite certain in your mind that it was Friday, 35 28 March 2014, that you were talking about? 36 A. Friday the 28th, yes. 37 38 Q. You've got no doubt about that? 39 A. No, not - no. 40 41 Q. The Commission has available to it phone records for 42 the phone number that you have just written down. 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. It shows, it appears, that you were not in the office 46 on the afternoon of 28 March 2014. What do you say about 47 that?


1 A. I know I was in the office on 28 March, and I don't 2 know the explanation for that. 3 4 Q. You are a person that would rely on your phone in the 5 course of your duties to a high level; is that right? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. If you had forgotten your phone, for example, you 9 would make arrangements to pick it up; is that right? 10 A. Sometimes if I leave my phone, yes, sometimes I get 11 someone to pick it up. Other times - yeah. Yes. 12 13 Q. Do we take it that you would have had your phone with 14 you during the whole of 28 March 2014? 15 A. Should have, yes. 16 17 Q. Can I show you this document. Do you see towards the 18 bottom of the first page - they are not numbered pages, but 19 it is the top page - a number of columns, the third of 20 which appears to be the date? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. At about 10 lines from the bottom of that, do you see 24 28 March 2014? It starts -- 25 A. Yes. Yes. 26 27 Q. -- with a series of dates. Do you see in the first 28 column there is a series of phone numbers and in the second 29 column there is a series of phone numbers? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. If you would accept from me that in this document, the 33 first column is known elsewhere in the document as Column A 34 and the second column is known elsewhere in the document as 35 Column B, and I will explain that in a moment, if you would 36 accept that from me? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. For example, if you go to the fourth entry down for 40 28 March, so that is 7:04:49? 41 A. Sorry, which one again? 42 43 Q. First page. 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. I will go from the bottom. The seventh entry from the 47 bottom of the page, do you see there an entry for 28 March,


1 7.04am? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. If you move along, there is a figure "21", do you see 5 that, in the next column? 6 A. Sorry, can you just point that out again? It is on 7 the second page? 8 9 Q. No, sorry, the first page. 10 A. The first page. 11 12 Q. The first page. 13 A. "21", yes, "Brighton". 14 15 Q. "7:04:49", "21", and against that do you see figure 16 "A"? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 19 Q. Moving across, do you see in the last column the word 20 "Brighton"? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. If you would accept from me that that indicates that 24 the user of the service in Column A is in Brighton? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. Or in the location of Brighton where that tower would 28 pick up that phone? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. Without saying precisely, do you live in that area? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. Can I ask you to go to the bottom entry on that page. 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. Do you see that Column A is your phone number? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. Go across to the time "8.05", then it says "27" and 41 then "A"? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. The last words on the column are "Bowen Hills South"? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. That's at 8.05?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Is your office in that area? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. Can I ask you, please, to go to the next page. Do you 7 see the fourth entry down, another entry at 8.05, and it 8 shows Column A, which is your phone number, as "Bowen Hills 9 South"? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. Can I ask you to go down further and then go, for 13 example, to 8.19pm, where there is an SMS. Your phone 14 number there is in Column B; do you see that? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. The location of Column B is said to be "Bowen Hills 18 South"; do you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. Does that indicate to you that it's likely, based on 22 these records, you were travelling from a location of your 23 home to the office and had arrived by about 8.05 or so? 24 Yes? 25 A. No, it wouldn't have taken me that long. 26 27 Q. You would have arrived by then. It is only if a call 28 or an SMS occurs which would ping the system, would you 29 agree? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. Moving down, do you see at 8:37:52, your phone number 33 in Column A is said to be at Bowen Hills South? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. Can I ask you to go two entries further down at 8.44, 37 your phone is in Column B and it's said to be "Bowen Hills 38 South"? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. Can I go down, please, to 9.23am. Column B is said to 42 be, which is your phone number, at Bowen Hills South? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Can I go, please, to Column B at 9.39. Do you see an 46 SMS sent at that time - your phone is Column B - is at 47 Bowen Hills South?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Can I ask you to go to 10.12am. Your phone, Column B, 4 is "Bowen Hills South"? 5 A. Mmm-hmm. 6 7 Q. Can I ask you to go to 10.14am. Column B is your 8 phone at Bowen Hills South? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Can I ask you to go over the page, please. Do you see 12 your phone at 10.49, about five entries down on that page? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Your phone is Column B and you are North-South Bypass 16 Tunnel? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Can I ask you to go to 11.05. Your phone is Column B 20 and that's recorded pinging off the tower at Eight Mile 21 Plains East? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. Is that near the CFMEU office? 25 A. No. Not Eight Miles, no. 26 27 Q. Where's that? 28 A. It's probably Garden City, Mount Gravatt, that area. 29 30 Q. How far away is that from your office? 31 A. Probably 20 minutes - 15, 20 minutes. 32 33 Q. Right. Can I ask you to go, please, to 11.06am. 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. Do you see that Column A is your phone number and it 37 is pinging off Eight Mile Plains East? Could I ask you to 38 go, please, to 11.31am and do you see there a call of 39 113 seconds. Your phone is Column B. It is recorded as 40 "Garden City IBC". Do you know where that is? 41 A. IBC -- 42 43 Q. Is that around about the same area? 44 A. The same area. 45 46 Q. Because it is pinging off, the next call at 11.43, 47 from the Eight Mile Plains east tower, do you see that?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Can I ask you to go down to the second and third last 4 entries on that page at 12.03. Do you see there 5 "Eight Mile Plains East" for your phone in Column B? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Can I ask you, please, to go to the next page and go 9 to 1.42, about a third of the way down the page. 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. Column B is your phone, and it shows that it's at 13 "Garden City IBC"? 14 A. Mmm-hmm. 15 16 Q. Could I ask you, please, to go to 2.15, or 14:15? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Your phone is Column B and it is pinging off the 20 Upper Mount Gravatt tower, do you see that? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. Can I ask you, please, to go to 14:32 or 2.32pm. Your 24 phone is Column B and it appears to be pinging off the 25 Brisbane Airport tower? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. Can I ask you, please, to go to 2.47pm, about 29 four-fifths of the way down the page. It is Column A now 30 and it shows Column A is in the area of Nudgee South? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Can I ask you, please, to go to the fourth entry from 34 the bottom, 3.10, there is an SMS, you're Column B, and 35 that is at Boondall North? 36 A. Mmm-hmm. 37 38 Q. Can I ask you, please, to go over the page, about 10 39 entries down or so, 3.19, the first column is your phone, 40 Column A, and that is showing to be in the area of Clontarf 41 South? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. A few entries below that at 3.20pm, or 15:20, 45 Column A, your phone, is said to be in the area of Margate? 46 A. Mmm-hmm. 47


1 Q. Further down, at 3.23, your phone is shown to be in 2 the area of Clontarf South? 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. If you would go about halfway down the page, 3.32, or 6 15:32, your row is Column B at Brighton? 7 A. Mmm-hmm. 8 9 Q. At 3.34 there is an SMS as well, still on that page, 10 two-thirds of the way down at Brighton? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. Then at Sandgate at 3.40; do you see that? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. Could you please go to the next page. Go to about the 17 fifth or so entry down, you are Column B, it seems to be at 18 Brighton, between 4.02 and also at 4.07? 19 A. Yep. 20 21 Q. Do you see about two-thirds of the way down the 22 page at 17:28, or 5.28pm, your phone, Column B, at 23 Sandgate? 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. Or in the area of Sandgate? 27 A. Mmm-hmm. 28 29 Q. And then about five entries from the bottom, Column B, 30 8.44 in the morning on the 29th shows your phone at 31 Tingalpa TE. Now, does that refresh your memory as to what 32 you were doing on Friday through to Saturday, the 28th to 33 the 29th? 34 A. It doesn't refresh me, no, other than I can see that 35 I was outside the office. 36 37 Q. So where you said you had a clear recollection that 38 you were in the office sorting through documents, that 39 appears to be not correct; would you agree? 40 A. I went through the documents in the office. I had the 41 recollection that I did it on the 28th. I came in in the 42 morning, went out to Garden City, which wasn't a long 43 meeting, and I went through all that - yeah, I went through 44 the documentation, but it looks like it wasn't on the 28th. 45 46 Q. I asked you before: 47


1 Are you quite certain in your mind that it 2 was Friday, 28 March 2014, that you were 3 talking about? 4 5 And you said: 6 7 Friday the 28th, yes. 8 9 A. I was certain in my mind and what I did is that in the 10 - in my diaries - because I know when the material came 11 into the office, and I know that I went through that 12 material, and I know that - I thought it was Friday, the 13 28th. 14 15 Q. And I also asked you: 16 17 You've got no doubt about that? 18 19 And you said: 20 21 No - not, no. 22 23 A. I was pretty adamant it was the 28th, yes. 24 25 Q. Is it the case that you were in the office on 28 March 26 doing this work? 27 A. Not with those phone records, no. 28 29 Q. If it wasn't the 28th, do I take it that it was 30 another day or did it not occur at all? 31 A. It did occur. I went through all the documents. 32 I spent quite a few hours going through those documents 33 between - a good 10 to 11 hours going through that 34 material. 35 36 Q. All together? 37 A. All together, yes. 38 39 Q. Right. Well, it looked like it didn't happen on 40 Friday, 28 March. You were in the office for some time, it 41 would appear, but certainly -- 42 A. But not that long. 43 44 Q. -- not the hours you said you were there for. In 45 fact, it would appear to be the reverse of what you said. 46 You were in the office for a time in the morning and then 47 you were out and about; would you agree?


1 A. Yes, I agree with that. 2 3 Q. Do we take it, then, that some day after that that you 4 were doing your sorting and looking? 5 A. Yes. Yeah. 6 7 Q. So, was it on 1 April? 8 A. No, I didn't - no, that was done before 1 April. 9 Because I couldn't do anything else on 1 April, I went 10 through the BLF documentation. 11 12 Q. What does that mean? You couldn't do anything else on 13 1 April, "before I went through the BLF documentation"? 14 A. At the end of the day, you could only - I didn't know 15 what needed to be retained and what needed to be kept. We 16 had to go through all the material that came from the BLF 17 before we either kept it - we couldn't do anything else in 18 respect of reorganisation of the office, in respect of the 19 filing, and - yeah. You had to go through that material 20 first. 21 22 Q. Did you work that weekend, 29-30 March? 23 A. Some weekends I'm in the office. I don't recall going 24 in on the Saturday, no. I don't think that Saturday, no. 25 26 Q. Or Sunday? 27 A. No, it wouldn't have been Sunday. 28 29 Q. So was it on 31 March that you did your sorting work? 30 A. I did about two - I did about three hours on the 31 Monday. 32 33 Q. And is that all? 34 A. That was the last bit of it. It might have been the 35 Thursday that I did it, but, as I said, the compactus 36 arrived the week before. The documentation that came from 37 the BLF is that - because I kept - I mean, a lot of the 38 stuff that I retained/kept, is that we kept the gazettes, 39 about three-quarters of the gazettes; kept the wage claim 40 files, that was just what we've still got in the office, so 41 I went through the BLF material. 42 43 Q. But, sir, until we were able to show you phone 44 records, you were extremely adamant that you were doing 45 a large task for several hours on 28 March? 46 A. I might have got the wrong date, but I went through 47 all that material, and I know what was in those boxes.


1 I don't have a problem with what was in the documentation 2 because -- 3 4 Q. Well, we only have your word for that, haven't we, 5 because you took no note? 6 A. I didn't take a note. I said that earlier, no, 7 I didn't take any notes. 8 9 Q. We only have your word for that, that's right, is it? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. We've already seen that you were mistaken, at the very 13 least, in relation to Friday, 28 March - yes? 14 A. That's correct, yes. 15 16 Q. Are you simply saying that you were going through the 17 documents in some detail to the Royal Commission because 18 you realise that it is a serious allegation that has been 19 made against you? 20 A. Oh, there's no doubt that there's an allegation 21 against the Union and probably myself. A lot of it's on 22 the basis of - well, there's only one witness, David Hanna. 23 When the material came to that Union office, I wanted to 24 know what was in there, and I know what we kept and what 25 was sent. 26 27 Q. Well, sir, people other than David Hanna have said 28 that the cameras were covered over. Can I ask you again: 29 did you know at the time, on 1 April, that the cameras were 30 covered over within the office and/or the garage of the 31 CFMEU in Brisbane? 32 A. I did not know. 33 34 Q. How is it that you could not know, given your 35 leadership style and where you were located on that day? 36 A. You mean 1 April? 37 38 Q. Yes. 39 A. 1 April, I was down near the filing system near the 40 kitchen where the hanging files are. The camera is near 41 the safe, I think. Yes, it's near the safe in that office. 42 I didn't see anything covered up. I started about 2.30 43 that day, and I did not see anything covered up. I was 44 predominantly in 16. I did go in and out to 14 a little 45 bit, on a couple of occasions, but that was my movements 46 over those hours. 47


1 Q. How long were you there for that day? 2 A. I was in the office - I had meetings earlier in the 3 day. I think I was predominantly in the office, and I had 4 no other - I think my last meeting was for 2.30 and I then 5 started commencing with the filing system. 6 7 Q. You have already indicated that you were concerned 8 about mess in the office and you were concerned that it 9 would be cleared up - yes? 10 A. The office wasn't in a good state, no. 11 12 Q. You would have noticed, wouldn't you, if someone 13 started to walk around with a large banner and propped it 14 up in the area of a camera - yes? 15 A. I didn't see it. 16 17 Q. You didn't see a large banner being propped up? 18 A. No, I did not. 19 20 Q. Do you know where the camera is located in number 16? 21 A. I've heard evidence, and I know it's above the safe, 22 but I've never bothered to really look at the camera. 23 24 Q. You would have noticed, though, if a banner was 25 propped up to cover it - yes? 26 A. Yes, but it wouldn't have been nowhere where I was 27 going. 28 29 Q. You would have been aware of someone doing that, would 30 you not? 31 A. Not really, if I didn't see it. 32 33 Q. You are saying you could have been so tied up in what 34 you were doing with your filing, that someone could have 35 walked near you with a banner and propped it up in front of 36 a camera and you wouldn't have noticed that happening? 37 A. The camera was nowhere near where I was working, and 38 even when I had all the files stacked up along the bench, 39 I was facing that way - (indicates) - to the wall. 40 I wasn't facing any way the other way. 41 42 Q. Did you direct the cameras to be covered up? 43 A. No. 44 45 Q. Are you sure about that? 46 A. I'm sure about it, because I found out two weeks later 47 what had happened.


1 2 Q. In what circumstances do you say you found out two 3 weeks later? 4 A. Rob Cameron told me. 5 6 Q. In what circumstances did Mr Cameron tell you? 7 A. He told me that the cameras had been covered up; he 8 felt very uncomfortable about it. My view was there was no 9 need to do it anyway. There was no secrecy about it; 10 couldn't see the point of it, because by covering up, 11 you're going to see the person who is going to cover it up. 12 The trailer was out the front of 14 at peak hour, so you've 13 got hundreds of cars going past the Union office, and 14 I couldn't understand the secrecy. There was no need for 15 it. At the end of the day, 1 April, I wanted to have 16 everything in order and that was always the date months 17 previous. 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: Ms McNaughton, do you want to tender 20 those phone records? 21 22 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, thank you. 23 24 THE COMMISSIONER: Document Disposal Case Study MFI-14 25 will be Mr Ravbar's telephone records from 27 March to 26 1 April 2014. 27 28 DOCUMENT DISPOSAL CASE STUDY MFI-14 - TELEPHONE RECORDS OF 29 MICHAEL RAVBAR FROM 27/03/2014 TO 01/04/2014 30 31 THE COMMISSIONER: I direct that the phone numbers be kept 32 confidential. If there is any doubt about it, I direct 33 that the whole of MFI-14 is to be confidential. 34 35 MS McNAUGHTON: Can I just note for the record that the 36 current version of these documents stops at 8.07am on 37 1 April. 38 39 THE COMMISSIONER: It starts at 11:23:16 on 27 March. 40 41 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, indeed. 42 43 Q. Did you direct documents to be taken out to Mr Hanna's 44 home to be destroyed? 45 A. No. 46 47 Q. Are you sure about that?


1 A. Adamant on that one. 2 3 Q. You were, however, aware that Mr Hanna lived on 4 a large property at Cornubia; that's right? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. He did at the time - yes? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. You were aware, were you not, of the size of the 11 property, in part because at times you stored, did you, 12 your caravan and/or your, I think, trailer there? 13 A. I've never been to his house and I don't know what the 14 property looks like. I know - because people - I know that 15 the trailer and stuff had sometimes been at Yatala and 16 other times at his property, but that's about all I know in 17 that regard. 18 19 Q. You knew it was a big property, big enough to store 20 a trailer? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. At times did you have a caravan stored there? 24 A. The Union did buy a caravan. I thought during that 25 time it was out south-west for a number of years. It may 26 have been at David's house, but I can't be certain with 27 that. 28 29 Q. You were aware that it was a large property? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. You were aware, therefore, that it had the capacity to 33 have materials taken there and disposed of? 34 A. I never thought it that way, no. 35 36 Q. But you're aware that it would have had that capacity? 37 A. Could've, yes. 38 39 Q. How did you understand the documents were to be 40 disposed of? 41 A. David told me that - what was agreed was that David 42 would look after taking away the documentation. Normally 43 I would deal with, over the years, Peter Close, my 44 Assistant Secretary. He said that he was going to bury it. 45 Historically, is that every year we've taken it out to the 46 dump when we've done the clean-out, so I just assumed that 47 he was taking it out to landfill because it was a pretty


1 simple exercise that he had to do, was just take it to the 2 dump. 3 4 Q. You said "David told me that - what was agreed ..." 5 What do you mean by that? 6 A. I was looking after in respect of the files and 7 everything else within the Union, all the documents and 8 everything else. David's job was just to take all the BLF 9 documentation, which was probably 90 per cent of the stuff 10 that left the Union, and that was his job. 11 12 Q. So you did direct David to do this? 13 A. David's job was to take the material away, yes. 14 15 Q. Can you answer my question, sir. You did direct David 16 to do this? 17 A. To do what? 18 19 Q. To take away the material. 20 A. Yes, I said that. To take the material away from the 21 Union. 22 23 Q. So you directed him to do that? 24 A. To take it away, yes. 25 26 Q. Well, did you have an understanding of where he was 27 taking it away? 28 A. No. He only said that he was going to bury it. 29 30 Q. Did you direct him to attempt to burn it? 31 A. No. 32 33 Q. Did you direct him - I withdraw that. Did you learn 34 that he had, or had people on his behalf, attempt to burn 35 it? 36 A. I only found out about that a couple of weeks ago. 37 38 Q. Did you discuss with him any other method, when the 39 burning didn't work, to get a truck? 40 A. No, 'cause it should have just been dumped at a tip, 41 like normally happens. 42 43 Q. Did you discuss that with him? 44 A. No. 45 46 Q. Why not? 47 A. Someone's going to - if someone has a simple exercise


1 to take - cart material away and bury it or dump it, you 2 take it to the tip. You don't really need to ask millions 3 of questions. It is a simple exercise, just to take the 4 documentation to the dump, no big deal. 5 6 Q. Did you know the size of the material that was being 7 taken away from the offices of the CFMEU? 8 A. There was about two trailer loads. 9 10 Q. Some of that was CFMEU material, wasn't it? 11 A. Not much. 12 13 Q. Some was? 14 A. Yes, some, yes, I agree, yeah. 15 16 Q. You were concerned, weren't you, that that would be 17 disposed of; indeed, all of it should be disposed of in an 18 appropriate fashion? 19 A. Yes. Historically we've taken it to the dump previous 20 years. 21 22 Q. Your leadership style, sir, is to have a hands-on 23 approach to things that occur within your office or under 24 your direction - yes? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. Are you saying that you had no idea that Mr Hanna was 28 going to take it to his property and burn it; really? 29 A. None. 30 31 Q. Well, that doesn't accord with the rest of how you 32 have explained your leadership style, does it? 33 A. No, is that - you never asked. Historically, when we 34 do the clean-ups, that Paula and myself, she'll do the 35 membership and the financial records and I'll do all the 36 other aspects of the administration, journals, campaigns, 37 files, and all that. Peter Close, who is my Assistant 38 Secretary and was the Assistant Secretary at the time with 39 the Union, he has always organised taking stuff to the dump 40 and Peter's always done that, it's never been a drama for 41 many years. It should have been done what was normally 42 done. 43 44 Q. Why was Peter Close not involved this year? 45 A. He was away. 46 47 Q. Didn't you have more than one Assistant Secretary?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Why didn't you get the other Assistant Secretary to do 4 it? 5 A. In the end, when I made the decision on Monday, was 6 that David needed to remove it on the basis that he brought 7 all that stuff from the BLF that needed to be taken away, 8 because the majority of the stuff probably should never 9 have come to the Union in the first place because it was 10 just crap, so I got him to organise it. 11 12 Q. You got him to organise it? 13 A. The disposal of the documentation, yes. 14 15 Q. So you directed him to organise the disposal of the 16 CFMEU and the BLF documentation? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Are you saying that you had no idea about how he was 20 going to do that? 21 A. Other than he said to me that he was going to bury it. 22 I'm not quite sure if Cherie was there, but he said to me 23 he was going to bury it. It was no big deal in my eyes. 24 25 Q. I'll ask you again: did you direct him to try and 26 burn it? 27 A. No. 28 29 Q. Did you direct him, or discuss with him, about getting 30 a tip-truck to take it to the tip when the burning was not 31 successful? 32 A. No, 'cause he should have left it in the trailers and 33 taken it to the tip. I don't - I've heard all this stuff 34 since then, listening to the other witnesses, but a simple 35 task would be to leave it in the trailer and take it to the 36 tip, you know, pretty simple. 37 38 Q. At some point did you learn that there was a Notice to 39 Produce that had been served on the CFMEU on 1 April? 40 A. Not on the 1st, no. 41 42 Q. When did you learn that? 43 A. On the 2nd. 44 45 Q. Are you sure about that? 46 A. Yes. Yeah. 47


1 Q. Can I show you these documents. I think they are on 2 the system. I'm not sure that they're in the right order. 3 Anyway, we'll work our way through them. Do you have one 4 with 1.22pm on the front of it at the top? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. Can I indicate to you that the evidence is that the 8 process server served Lisa England in Melbourne at or about 9 1.50pm; do you accept that from me? 10 A. From the documents, yes. 11 12 Q. That is Victorian time. 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Do you see at the bottom of this first page, at 2.01pm 16 - actually, the second page of that is the first of those 17 series of documents. At 1.52pm, it appears that 18 Lisa England is scanning herself a document? 19 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Could I just interrupt, I am reluctant 21 to do so, but this sounds as though it needs to be followed 22 closely in detail. 23 24 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: I have four bundles. One is 2 April at 27 4.06pm, this is the second line, then the next one is 28 2 April at 4.06pm, so that seems to be -- 29 30 MS McNAUGHTON: I think we might need to rearrange them. 31 32 THE COMMISSIONER: Then I have one at 3 April at 2.58; 33 then I have another one at 3 April at 2.58. 34 35 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. I think you might have two of the 36 same. We might just do one at a time. 37 38 MR AGIUS: Can we have a copy, please? 39 40 MS McNAUGHTON: They have been provided overnight from 41 Mr Agius' client, I understand. 42 43 THE COMMISSIONER: Even more important is for Mr Ravbar to 44 have the correct documents, so we better check his as well. 45 46 MS McNAUGHTON: Absolutely. If we could just work on the 47 one that has 1.22pm on the second line of the document. If


1 we could just retrieve all of those and we'll start again. 2 3 Q. Do you see there, on the second line at the top of the 4 page, just so we know we are on the right document, 1.22pm? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. If we can go to the second page to start, do we see 8 there what would appear to be a document being scanned to 9 Ms England at 1.52pm, do you see that? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. That is on the second page, so the first entry working 13 backwards; do you see that? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. The next entry is over the bottom of the first page, 17 2.01pm, Ms England is sending an email through to Ms Read, 18 do you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. And then Ms Read, further up the page, at 2.03pm - 22 this is still Melbourne time - is sending it through to 23 Mr O'Connor, Mr Roberts and Ms Maksimovic, do you see that? 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. At the top of the page, we appear to go back in time 27 to 1.22pm, Mr Deane, who appears to be Mr O'Connor's 28 Executive Assistant, is forwarding a Notice to Produce to 29 Mr Maher, Mr Noonan, Mr Clayton, Mr Pasfield, a copy to 30 Mr Roberts and Ms Read. We have an electronic version of 31 this, but if you would accept from me that what these 32 hardcopy documents have done is the 1.22pm, because it has 33 been printed off in hardcopy on a Queensland computer, has 34 reflected the Queensland time at the top, that is the live 35 email at the top, and the others are the email times in the 36 southern States time. Do you accept that from me? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. So it is 2.22pm in Melbourne but it's 1.22pm in 40 Brisbane? 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. You are not a party to that email, but that is how 44 those times work. It appears then, therefore, that the 45 senior members of the National Office were aware of the 46 Notice to Produce by 2.22pm on 1 April 2014 which was 47 1.22pm in Queensland.


1 2 MR AGIUS: I object to that. That conclusion assumes 3 a fact. My learned friend says "It appears that the senior 4 members of the National Office were aware of the Notice to 5 Produce by 2.22". 6 7 MS McNAUGHTON: I take my friend's point. I will rephrase 8 that. 9 10 Q. That Mr Maher and Mr Noonan at least had been made 11 aware - sorry, I withdraw that - had been emailed by 12 2.22pm, Melbourne time - yes? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Can you put that, please, to one side. 16 17 THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want to tender that, or do you 18 want to tender them all as a bundle? 19 20 MS McNAUGHTON: I think if we tender the bundle will be 21 convenient. 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. 24 25 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Could you then please go to this 26 document, "1.35". On the second half of page 1, do you see 27 the time 2.32pm? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. On the top of the page it says Ms Read has forwarded 31 a document to Mr Clayton, Mr Deane and Mr Roberts at 1.35 - 32 sorry, has an email exchange at 1.35pm which is actually 33 Melbourne time 2.35pm. It is a reply to a question about 34 what time the Notice to Produce was served, and that is 35 Ms Read saying it was served about 1.55. Do you see that? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. That can be put to one side. The third one is MFI-12 39 which has already been tendered; if the witness could 40 please be shown MFI-12. Do you see that document is an 41 email from Michael O'Connor to a whole range of people; 42 copied to a whole other range of people and the subject is: 43 44 URGENT - Notice to Produce Documents From 45 the Royal Commission 46 47 Do you see that?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Do you see your name in the "To" section on the second 4 line, second-last name? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. If you would accept from me that that is 4.16pm 8 Queensland time? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Just for the record, we can prove this if required, 12 but Daylight Saving ended in Victoria on 6 April 2014, that 13 was the following weekend. That appears to have gone to 14 your email address at 4.16pm, Brisbane time? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. But it appears that there were people in the office in 18 Melbourne that had become aware of the Notice to Produce 19 some time prior to that; you have seen that? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Do you say that you had no notice of the Notice to 23 Produce on 1 April? 24 A. Not on the 1st, no. 25 26 Q. You didn't look at your email that afternoon, some 27 time after 4.16pm? 28 A. No, 'cause around that time I was going through the 29 EBA files. 30 31 Q. What about after you finished that exercise? 32 A. I didn't finish - I did it in two parts. I didn't 33 finish till about, I might not be 100 per cent, 7.30, maybe 34 8 o'clock that night. It would be 7.30, I think it might. 35 36 Q. Are you saying you didn't receive a phone call, an 37 SMS, or any other type of notification from anyone in the 38 CFMEU, anywhere, that the Notice to Produce had been served 39 on the CFMEU? 40 A. I can't recall, no. I can't recall an SMS or 41 anything, no. 42 43 Q. Or any sort of phone call, or any sort of message in 44 any way at all, either in person, over the phone, 45 electronically, SMS, or any other method? 46 A. I can't recall, no, but I know I didn't see that. 47


1 Q. And by, "I know I didn't see that", do you mean that 2 email? 3 A. Yes. No, I didn't get - I didn't see that email on 4 the 1st, no. 5 6 Q. When do you say you saw that email, if you ever saw 7 it? 8 A. No, I did see it. Based on recollection - as I see, 9 you've got to get dates right. I'm pretty certain it was 10 2 April, around mid to late morning. 11 12 Q. In what way did you see it? What actually did you 13 look at? 14 A. I was catching up with all my emails because I had an 15 early morning meeting at Brendale. I remember coming home, 16 'cause I'd left my lunch, and I went - I think I had 17 a coffee and stuff and went through - caught up with my 18 emails. 19 20 Q. And what did you do? Did you just sort of notice that 21 something had been served, did you look at it, or what did 22 you do? 23 A. I would have got on to it. I would have - I'm pretty 24 certain I would have rang Paula straight away to say that 25 it's been received. I'm pretty certain of that, I just - 26 yeah. 27 28 Q. Did you digest every aspect of the Notice to Produce 29 as soon as you read it, or did you feel that you needed to 30 be advised on it? 31 A. I read it all. I've been there, done that before. 32 There was nothing that concerned me in the Notice to 33 Produce that the Union didn't have in its records. But 34 some of the financial stuff, I had talked to Paula - you 35 know, Paula about. I don't know if I rang Tom Roberts, but 36 what I saw in there was that I was pretty - I knew the 37 timelines would be tight to get that material, I think it 38 was 10 or 11 April. I think my only concern was timelines 39 because there was a lot of stuff you were asking for. 40 41 Q. You said you've been there, done that. Is that 42 because you have been involved in previous 43 Royal Commissions? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Did you know from that experience that it was 47 possible, even likely, that more than one Notice to Produce


1 would be served upon your Union? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. Were you at all concerned that the material that you 5 had sent for destruction may be the subject of a Notice to 6 Produce, or that your foray through the material was not 7 thorough enough for you to be satisfied that it would not 8 be caught? 9 A. My opinion was that all the stuff that was sent and 10 left the Union office on 1 April, I didn't have any 11 concerns that the notice and further Notices to Produce - 12 and reality is that everything that you have asked in the 13 further Notices to Produce, the 23 of them, is that you've 14 got full disclosure of all the information that you want 15 from the Union, so I was very comfortable. 16 17 Q. But we're taking your word for that - yes? 18 A. Yes, that's fine. 19 20 Q. We've already seen that your recollection can be quite 21 inaccurate in terms of things that you were previously 22 quite certain about? 23 A. In respect of my diary, maybe the date's wrong. But 24 in respect of all that material that I went through, 25 because I didn't trust Dave Hanna, I went through all that 26 documentation on the basis that it had to be done. You 27 just could not ignore it. 28 29 Q. You said you didn't trust Dave Hanna, but you did 30 trust him to destroy appropriately material which included 31 CFMEU documentation; is that what you say? 32 A. At the end of the day, Dave had the simple exercise of 33 removing the material. I was the one taking responsibility 34 in respect of what was being taken out of the CFMEU. Like 35 any decision of the Union, I take full responsibility. 36 37 Q. Did you order anyone to ride shotgun in any truck that 38 went to the tip in order to make sure that material was 39 properly destroyed? 40 A. No. I heard all this for the first time during these 41 proceedings. 42 43 Q. But if you didn't trust Dave Hanna, that's something 44 that you would do, is that not right? 45 A. No, because it's a simple task. Historically, every 46 year when we'd do a clean-up, whatever excess material - in 47 some years you fitted it all in the destruction bins, and


1 other stuff, some years you'd have to take a load or two. 2 Five years ago, when we were moving offices, we had quite 3 a few trailer loads that had to go. You just take it to 4 the dump. It is quite a simple exercise which now I have 5 seen has gone off in all different directions. 6 7 Q. You have heard more than one person say that cameras 8 were covered over - yes? 9 A. Yes, I did, yes. 10 11 Q. Were you aware that evidence has been given from 12 people, apart from Mr Hanna, or there is a person apart 13 from Mr Hanna, that says that the receipt was later 14 destroyed, that is in relation to the payment for the tip? 15 A. Yep. Sorry, can you repeat that? I heard something 16 about a tip. 17 18 Q. You also heard from someone, apart from Mr Hanna --? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. -- that the receipt in relation to the tip or the 22 destruction of the documents was destroyed? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. This is all very unusual, wouldn't you agree? 26 A. No. Because, as I've said, historically, I take 27 responsibility for what's retained, what's removed. 28 Someone just needs to cart the material away, a very simple 29 exercise. 30 31 Q. You don't think it's unusual for a receipt in relation 32 to this exercise to have been destroyed? 33 A. No, no, I am just talking about the process. 34 Historically, when we have taken stuff to - a lot of it was 35 to Nudgee was that you just weigh it, pay it, and keep the 36 receipt. 37 38 Q. So you would agree that it was unusual for the receipt 39 to be destroyed? 40 A. I heard for the first time about the receipt being 41 destroyed. 42 43 Q. Did you authorise the payment of the money for the 44 truck? 45 A. Yes. I told Cherie that that was fine to pay. No, it 46 was in respect of the - not the truck. It was in respect 47 of the material being taken away.


1 2 Q. You said that was fine? 3 A. Yeah, it was fine, yeah. 4 5 Q. Well, didn't you say, "Why on earth do we need to do 6 this because I thought it was going to be buried"? 7 A. But David said to me he was going to bury it, so 8 I just assumed it had gone to a tip or landfill, wherever. 9 I just assumed it went to a tip. 10 11 Q. Well, didn't you that he said he would bury it? 12 A. Bury it. Bury it in landfill, bury in a tip. Bury 13 means no big deal. I just assumed that he would do like 14 we've done the last 20 years, just take it to the tip. 15 16 Q. When you found out that there'd been a Notice to 17 Produce and from your general knowledge that there could be 18 further Notices to Produce, were you concerned to halt any 19 destruction procedure, such that you would be protected 20 from any allegation that material was wrongfully destroyed? 21 A. No, because at the end of the day the priority was the 22 Union. I mean, these Royal Commissions, they come and go 23 and they have their ideological agendas. Always had - as I 24 said earlier, months earlier, we wanted to have 1 April, 25 the Union operating. Clean-outs, not unusual in the CFMEU. 26 The priority was the BLF and it was a one-off. You had 27 a lot of material come into the Union office. I know 28 people have said there were a lot boxes and other stuff 29 lying around. I was quite comfortable, very comfortable, 30 about the stuff that left the Union office was basically of 31 no use. My priority wasn't the Royal Commission. I knew 32 the Royal Commission was coming up, to be frank, but, at 33 the end of the day, I was very comfortable. 34 35 MS McNAUGHTON: Would it be convenient to tender those 36 additional documents, that means those additional to MFI-12 37 that I recently showed the witness? 38 39 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Document Disposal Case Study 40 MFI-15 will comprise two bundles of emails, the second line 41 of the first of which was received at 1.22pm on 1 April 42 2014 Brisbane time. 43 44 DOCUMENT DISPOSAL CASE STUDY MFI-15 - TWO BUNDLES OF 45 EMAILS, THE SECOND LINE OF THE FIRST RECEIVED AT 1.22PM ON 46 01/04/2014 BRISBANE TIME 47


1 THE COMMISSIONER: A lot more came up but has gone back, 2 but that is not part of this tender? 3 4 MS McNAUGHTON: I will tender that in due course. 5 6 Q. Mr Ravbar, how many boxes do you say were taken away 7 from the CFMEU office on or about the same day that you 8 found out a Notice to Produce was served on your National 9 Office? 10 A. I reckon probably about 80 - 70 to 80 is that -- 11 12 MR AGIUS: Well, I object to that question. Sorry, I don't 13 know whether this was intentional: 14 15 [H]ow many boxes do you say were taken away 16 from the CFMEU office on or about the same 17 day that you found out a Notice to Produce 18 was served on your National Office? 19 20 The witness's evidence has been that he found out about the 21 Notice on 2 April and the evidence -- 22 23 MS McNAUGHTON: I will rephrase it. I wasn't intending 24 to -- 25 26 Q. You say that you did find out that there was a Notice 27 to Produce served on 1 April at some point of time? 28 A. No. 29 30 Q. Sorry, I'll try again. You did find out at some time 31 that a Notice to Produce had been served on the CFMEU on 32 1 April? 33 A. Yes. Sorry, yeah. 34 35 Q. My mistake, I have no doubt. How many boxes do you 36 say were taken away on 1 April? 37 A. I believe about 70 to 80. We kept - about five or six 38 boxes of the gazettes, I kept. I added a few boxes in 39 respect of election stuff and campaigns. So probably 40 between 70 to 80. 41 42 Q. And boxes were taken from downstairs in the garage as 43 well, were they? 44 A. I didn't go downstairs. The membership - what I used 45 to remember with Paula, the membership would just have like 46 parcel-type stuff that was all - I did hear it from Stacey, 47 but it used to be, like, in thin bundles. I don't know how


1 many bundles were taken out down the bottom, I couldn't 2 answer that one. 3 4 Q. That was CFMEU material? 5 A. The membership records, yes. 6 7 Q. So at least 70 to 80, plus some more material from 8 downstairs, is that what you are saying? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Once you learnt on 2 April that there had been 12 a Notice to Produce, were you concerned that any 13 destruction should be stopped, sir? 14 A. No, because I wasn't worried about what left the 15 office; never have. 16 17 Q. Were you responsible in any way for calling in extra 18 staff on 1 April to facilitate the removal of material from 19 the offices of the CFMEU? 20 A. No. David organised the training people to come in. 21 For some reason Hollie was there. I organised my daughter 22 to come in and help, I did that bit. Normally most - me, 23 Jacqui, Paula - sorry, yes, I did ask Cherie to clean her 24 office up because a couple of those people had changed 25 offices and they hadn't cleaned it up. I said, "If we're 26 going to do a clean-up, you might as well clean up your 27 office", so Cherie is one that I said to stay back. 28 29 Q. Why did you not require, for example, Ms Bradshaw to 30 stay back? 31 A. At that time, with the integration, girls were working 32 big hours. The membership girls, they were working 33 big hours, especially during March and April. Basically 34 I was giving them a break and - yeah. So we didn't need - 35 historically with clean-ups, you only need four or five 36 people. You don't need a lot people. 37 38 Q. Wasn't 1 April one of the worst days you could pick in 39 your Union year to do a big clean-up of this nature? 40 A. Yes, but I was already adamant that 1 April, that 41 Union was going to function in a professional manner, that 42 everything was going to be - because this had been going on 43 for months. There had been renovations here, changes 44 there. It was just enough was enough. Yes, it probably 45 was a bit of an inconvenience, I'll have to agree, but 46 other than that, 1 April, that was the start of the Union. 47


1 Q. So it was an inconvenient day - yes? 2 A. I wouldn't say extremely inconvenient because stuff 3 was done at the end of the working day which historically 4 were done previous with clean-ups. 5 6 Q. You have learnt that cameras were covered over on that 7 inconvenient day? 8 A. Yes. A couple of weeks later, yes, I found out about 9 that. 10 11 Q. That people were required to stay back after-hours in 12 order to do this on this inconvenient day - yes? 13 A. Inconvenient - that office is always full-on. Look, 14 even first thing in the morning it's a busy office. 15 Whenever it was going to happen - I thought the big 16 inconvenience was bringing all that stuff from the BLF in 17 to our office. I found that more inconvenient than 18 actually trying to fix - you know, to get that Union 19 functioning properly. 20 21 Q. I am just going to put some other factors to you. 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. It was the day that the National Office was informed 25 that there was an NTP - that was served with an NTP, that 26 was one; the receipt for the destruction of the material 27 was later destroyed; and there were a number of people who 28 were not required to participate in the activity because it 29 was done after- hours, so if you could add those 30 circumstances together, do you say that there was nothing 31 wrong with what was going on on that day, sir? 32 A. No, because, at the end of the day, you had to pick 33 a point in time, 1 April - I know you are trying to link 34 some of the other stuff across to it, but the priority was 35 was to have the office functioning properly; to have the 36 office clean and tidy. I'd already made a decision months 37 earlier that 1 April was going to be the day. The 38 complication was the amount of material that came from the 39 BLF office and that was the inconvenience. The priority at 40 the time was to clean the office up and finalise the 41 integration of the BLF into the office. The 42 Royal Commission, yes, that was an issue, but that wasn't 43 my priority at the time. 44 45 Q. Was there an unusual amount of shredding on that day? 46 A. No. Sometimes in that office, membership at that time 47 of year, you can get a lot of shredding done because you


1 have membership records for privacy and all that. What I 2 saw was Cherie's stuff being shredded. There wasn't a lot 3 of shredding done at all. 4 5 Q. There were a number of young people involved in that 6 exercise of shredding - yes? Two? 7 A. Two, but I only saw one actually shredding. 8 9 Q. That wasn't usual, was it? 10 A. No, because those girls - actually, I brought my 11 daughter in to keep her company too, but the girls didn't 12 do a lot, to be frank. They just did a bit of shredding. 13 They've come in before, folding envelopes, no big deal. 14 15 Q. Why did it all need to be done in this one short space 16 of time? Why, given it had been concerning you for 17 a little while, could it not have been done over a period 18 of time? 19 A. Because it should have been done in January and there 20 was a lot of inconvenience, people were coming in dribs and 21 drabs. 31 March was the end date of the BLF. 1 April 22 there was supposed to be a new beginning. Everyone was 23 going to be housed in the CFMEU, administration-wise, 24 everyone was on the payroll, and from that point on, we 25 just wanted to make sure that, "Let's get off to a good 26 start and let's have everything done", so -- 27 28 Q. Are you sure that the cameras could have been covered 29 up, sir, without you approving it? 30 A. I didn't approve it. 31 32 Q. You were the head of the office, weren't you? 33 A. Things I've learned about David, and I know he's your 34 star witness, but he did what he did. I don't know why he 35 needed to do it but that's David's style about secrecy; 36 secrecy in respect of the cameras, secrecy in respect of 37 removal of the material. That's how - I've never operated 38 in that way. You know, David did what David does and David 39 does have the autonomy and the authority to do things. He 40 did it his way. It was a terrible way. It just gives 41 a bit of - it just should never have happened that way and 42 if I knew about the thing at the time, I wouldn't have 43 hesitated to take it off the cameras. It was no big deal. 44 It was basically a clean up at the same time the BLF come 45 into the Union office. It was a one-off event on the basis 46 that the BLF were closing down and having two trailer 47 loads, yep, a bit of material. Even when we moved offices


1 five years earlier, we had a lot more stuff that was taken 2 to the tip. So again, I didn't see it as unusual. I know 3 you are trying to link the timing with something else, but 4 at that stage 1 April was to actually have the Union up and 5 running. 6 7 Q. Once you learnt that the cameras had been covered over 8 during this exercise, sir, did you do something about it? 9 A. No, because it had already been and done. When David 10 does something like that, at the end of the day, even if 11 you try and reprimand him - at the time I thought it was 12 typical David. I thought it was a bit silly doing it 13 because the fact was you're going to try to keep it secret, 14 why do it on a busy road, if you try to portray that. 15 David hadn't been involved in any other, I suppose, 16 clean ups. I don't know how he manages his office. To me 17 it was nothing unusual. A lot of organisations clean out, 18 a lot of organisations shred stuff. The Union is 19 a membership-based organisation, so all the stuff that I've 20 been hearing over the last three or four days is nothing 21 unusual. The only thing that was unusual was about the 22 stupidity of covering it up and the stupidity of the way 23 that it was removed because that had never happened in my 24 Union. Probably, in hindsight, I probably shouldn't have 25 given it to David but that was a mistake I made. 26 27 Q. Sir, earlier you said you didn't trust Mr Hanna but 28 yet, you did let him, you say, look after this issue of 29 document destruction at a time when you knew the 30 Royal Commission was interested in unions, including 31 yours - yes? 32 A. No. Just because you don't trust someone doesn't 33 mean - we had the agreement, quite clearly, in respect of 34 the organisation, about who did what and I've explained 35 that earlier. I thought it was a very simple task. I was 36 never concerned about what left the Union, but the manner 37 how it left the Union was not the appropriate way to do it, 38 but still, that material that left the Union office was 39 basically crap. 40 41 Q. Did you ever include your concerns about you learning 42 about the covering of the cameras and the method of 43 document destruction in your complaints to the 44 National Executive about Mr Hanna? 45 A. In respect of the removal, most of it I found out 46 during these proceedings, I found out a couple of weeks 47 earlier about the burning of it. The thing with hiding the


1 cameras over, I thought - but that's - people have 2 different styles about how they go about business, and 3 David, everything about the secrecy and the deceiving of 4 the Royal Commission about how he did a lot of things in 5 secrecy, but I didn't raise it with the National people, 6 no. The other stuff about the disposal, that was new to 7 me, so I haven't had the opportunity to raise it with 8 anyone because I'm a witness, but, no, at the time I just 9 thought it was pretty average and I didn't reprimand him, 10 no. 11 12 Q. You raised, did you not, another concern in relation 13 to Mr Hanna that we have heard about that Mr Skourdoumbis 14 was inquiring into - yes? 15 A. About the IVF? 16 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. You weren't concerned to raise this issue as well? 21 A. Because it's very, very different. The stuff with the 22 moving of the BLF material and the stuff from the CFMEU to 23 me was business as usual. There was no secrecy about it, 24 it was no big deal. David Hanna using his position and 25 procuring a benefit was a big deal. As a senior officer of 26 the Union, you should never do that and what took place was 27 that - and I didn't hesitate - he needed to be charged 28 under that. I thought it was a corrupt act. What he did 29 with covering the cameras, poor judgment, I would argue, 30 but in respect of the IVF, that's totally different. 31 32 Q. In terms of document destruction, isn't it more 33 regular rather than business as usual, as you have 34 indicated, to get a commercial document destruction company 35 to simply take documents away? 36 A. With the financial records, that's how we've always 37 done it. When it comes to other stuff, like, you get a lot 38 of campaign material, you know, you get a lot of election 39 stuff at different times of the year, you get a lot of 40 paperwork in there, you get old Award booklets, you get 41 journals, that stuff we just put in a ute and stuff like 42 that and just take it. It's of no value and it wouldn't be 43 of value here, in my view, at the Royal Commission. We 44 keep all those - anything like a journal, any of that 45 stuff, everything is equipped electronic. I mean, in the 46 last three or four years I have been pushing for everything 47 electronic, I've spent an absolute fortune in that area


1 about getting stuff electronic. I think our governance is 2 fine, but yeah, that's my answer to you. 3 4 Q. Is it the case that you didn't mention the issue of 5 this document destruction because you were concerned that 6 it would implicate you? 7 A. I was never worried about it. I know you're making it 8 a big issue, this document destruction, but at the end of 9 the day I am just giving my involvement in it. I know 10 we've still got a bit more to go through with this 11 particular matter, but I was never concerned about what 12 went to the tip because - what left the Union. I went 13 through the material, I went through the material in the 14 CFMEU. The priority was to get the Union up and running on 15 1 April. I had no concerns with it. I think people are 16 making a mountain out of a molehill about it. The Union 17 has met every Notice to Produce of this Royal Commission. 18 They even sent another one last night and that was done 19 this morning. You've got every documentation of this Union 20 and, like anything, you can get the media coverage and make 21 a mountain out of a molehill, but I was very comfortable 22 with what left the Union that day. 23 24 MS McNAUGHTON: Is that a convenient time? 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. The hearing will resume at 2pm. 27 28 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT 29 30 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton? 31 32 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Mr Ravbar, after the short 33 adjournment this morning, I asked you about how many phones 34 you used. You gave an answer that you used regularly one, 35 and then I said, "Do you ever use more than one?", and you 36 answered "I've used other mobile phones, yes." Can you 37 just explain how it is that you come to use other mobile 38 phones apart from your own? 39 A. Sometimes I'll use someone else's mobile phone to make 40 a call. That's what I was meaning. 41 42 Q. Why do you do that? 43 A. Oh, sometimes for privacy and having discussions with 44 people, we know that a lot of our phones are probably being 45 bugged and, as I see with this Royal Commission, sometimes 46 things are not done in a full sequence of conversations and 47 other stuff, so that's my choosing.


1 2 Q. So you are saying you do have a concern for secrecy 3 then, not only Mr Hanna? 4 A. No, it's just at the end of the day, sometimes the 5 business of the Union is not the business for other people 6 to know, so -- 7 8 Q. Do you regularly use other people's mobile phones? 9 A. Not regular, no. 10 11 Q. Is it any one particular person or particular people 12 whose phones you use when you are using phones other than 13 your own? 14 A. It's not used that much, so -- 15 16 Q. Is there any regular pattern? 17 A. No. 18 19 Q. You will just, what, grab anyone who is standing 20 nearby, or is it someone at work, or what's the position? 21 A. Sometimes it could be anyone's phone. 22 23 Q. Well, presumably you have to know them? 24 A. Yes, yes, but it could be anyone. It could be a 25 family friend. It could be someone with work. It could 26 be -- 27 28 Q. Someone at work. Anyone in particular at work? 29 A. Not in particular, no. 30 31 Q. How long have you been doing that? 32 A. I don't know. Probably the last year. 33 34 Q. Or more? 35 A. I wouldn't say more, no. 36 37 Q. So from about September 2014, is that what you say? 38 A. Oh, I couldn't give you an exact date, no. 39 40 Q. But about a year? It could be a bit more? 41 A. It could be a bit more, yes. 42 43 Q. Could I go to another topic. Could I just ask you 44 about the membership cards in your organisation. How is it 45 that people are signed up to membership? 46 A. A membership card is that people can join either 47 through direct debit, there's a special membership form for


1 direct debit. The vast majority of people will sign up 2 with the normal membership cards. They will join up to the 3 State Union and they will join up to the Federal Union. 4 5 Q. Do they have to be signed by the member involved? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Are those membership cards kept at your office? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Those membership cards, to your knowledge, were any of 12 those from any time part of the material that was 13 destroyed? 14 A. No. 15 16 Q. How do you know that? 17 A. Because I only saw receipt books. I didn't see any 18 membership cards, no. 19 20 Q. But you didn't look at all the material downstairs, 21 did you? 22 A. No. I said that earlier, no, I didn't, I don't think. 23 24 Q. You don't know, for example, whether or not there were 25 membership cards amongst that material? 26 A. A normal sequence of events is that we keep membership 27 cards for seven years. We follow the Fair Work Act for 28 wage claims, membership cards, financial records. I can 29 only assume that for a normal clean up, you put one year in 30 and you take another year out, that's over seven years, so 31 that's all I can - unless there's something different, but 32 that's the normal practice. 33 34 Q. Once the seven years is up, what happens to them? 35 A. They get destroyed. 36 37 Q. How do they get destroyed? 38 A. Usually with the membership records they will either 39 be put in the - I'm not 100 per cent certain on this one, 40 but in the financial bin; if not, they will be shredded. 41 42 Q. Is it the case that they could have been part of the 43 material that went to the tip in April 2014, any of them? 44 A. Which particular year? 45 46 Q. 2014. 47 A. No, no, 2014 - you mean 2014 membership cards?


1 2 Q. No. Could any cards from any year have been included 3 in the 2014 trip to the tip in April that we have been 4 hearing about? 5 A. I wouldn't know. You should have asked Paula or 6 Stacey. 7 8 Q. So you don't know? 9 A. No, I don't know. 10 11 Q. Can I ask you about another topic. Could I just go 12 back to the afternoon of 1 April. 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Did you tell Mr Hanna that you expected to get the 16 Notice to Produce that day, that being 1 April? 17 A. No. 18 19 Q. Did you tell Mr Hanna that the office staff had been 20 informed not to pass any phone calls through to you? 21 A. Can you repeat that again, please? 22 23 Q. Did you tell Mr Hanna that the office staff had been 24 informed not to pass any phone calls through to you? 25 A. I did say to the staff not to be disturbed while I was 26 going through the - with the filing system, yes. 27 28 Q. Did you tell that to Mr Hanna? 29 A. I may have told David, not - I would have told a lot 30 of people for me not to be disturbed. 31 32 Q. Did you tell Mr Hanna that you had told the staff not 33 to open certain emails? 34 A. I didn't tell David that. 35 36 Q. Did you tell anyone that? 37 A. No, because emails is my business. I don't recall 38 telling anyone that, no. 39 40 Q. Did you tell Mr Hanna that you didn't want to have to 41 be in a position of spending the next month photocopying 42 documentation? 43 A. That - I mean, you don't want to photocopy any 44 documents - like, a lot of documentation. I wasn't 45 concerned about that. When the Notice to Produce was going 46 to come, a lot of our information is electronic these days. 47 There's still a lot of hard copies of documentation in the


1 office. So, yes, you have to photocopy, but if you can 2 minimise photocopying, even better. 3 4 Q. Did you tell Mr Hanna that you didn't want to have to 5 be in a position of spending the next month photocopying 6 documentation? 7 A. I don't recall that, no. 8 9 Q. Did you say that because of your reluctance to have to 10 spend the next month photocopying documentation, or staff 11 spending that time, that some items should be removed from 12 the office? 13 A. No. I mean, it didn't bother me to photocopy. If the 14 Royal Commission wanted things to be photocopied, as we 15 did, we brought people in, brought more photocopiers, that 16 was the requirement, so -- 17 18 Q. Did you want to minimise that if you could? 19 A. I would prefer electronic information than 20 photocopying. 21 22 Q. Can I go to another topic now. Can you tell me who 23 Shaun Taylor is and why you may have been talking to him on 24 or about 1 April? 25 A. I'm not quite sure, no. 26 27 Q. How about Owen Doogan? 28 A. What time? Owen Doogan is - sorry, Shaun Taylor is an 29 organiser. Owen Doogan is from the Rail, Tram and Bus 30 Union. 31 32 Q. A different Union? 33 A. Yes, yes. Sorry. 34 35 Q. And Tony Kong? 36 A. He's an organiser. 37 38 Q. Shaun Taylor and Tony Kong, both from your Union? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. Do you know why you may have been talking to them on 42 1 April? 43 A. Not really, no. I can't recall. I know they're my 44 organisers. I can't recall why I would be talking to them. 45 46 Q. How about Mr Doogan? 47 A. It could be anything.


1 2 Q. Where were Mr Taylor and Mr Kong based back in April 3 2014? 4 A. In April, I think Shaun was still - I don't think he 5 had gone to Darwin yet. I think he was still in Brisbane, 6 and Tony's a Sunshine Coast organiser. 7 8 Q. Could I ask you another topic. Within the Brisbane 9 office of the CFMEU in 2014, was there anything like a 10 registry where details of file holdings would have been 11 kept? 12 A. There should be, yes. 13 14 Q. What is the nature of that? 15 A. You mean of the files? 16 17 Q. Was there any registry where records of what files 18 were kept was noted? 19 A. Yes. Paula will handle that. 20 21 Q. So you know about that, do you? 22 A. Yes. Yes. 23 24 Q. How does that work? 25 A. The filing system will have what's recorded for the 26 green files, the EBA files, wage claims, legal matters, 27 FWBC matters. There would be a whole range of systems in 28 respect of the different categories. 29 30 Q. Is there, though, some sort of record, when someone 31 needs to take a file out, that they have to sign the 32 register and then sign it back in, or anything of that 33 nature? 34 A. I don't think so, no. I haven't seen that one, no. 35 36 Q. If records are destroyed, there is no destruction 37 register or schedule that has to be filled in? 38 A. No. No, there's not that, no. 39 40 Q. Do you think that's a good governance situation? 41 A. Yes, you can always improve your systems. 42 43 Q. You would agree that that's not a great governance 44 situation without such a system? 45 A. On the basis - as long as you have an electronic - if 46 something is being destroyed, as long as you've got an 47 electronic record, but, yeah, I agree with you, any


1 improvement to the system should be included. 2 3 Q. Can I just now go back to the week starting 31 March 4 and, indeed, that whole topic. When do you say you did 5 your file review and for how long did you do it? 6 A. I did it on the Monday but not for long, probably 7 about - I think I said probably three hours that I did it 8 in the office. 9 10 Q. Did you do it on any other day? 11 A. Other than the 31st? 12 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. As I said, I went through the other material. 15 16 Q. We have already seen that it wasn't Friday or -- 17 A. No, I got the date wrong, but, you know, I went 18 through that material - I'd have to look at my diary 19 records, but I kept a record of - I've still got the old 20 wage claims that we kept, the gazettes. The stuff that 21 I went through - and I've explained to you the stuff that 22 I went through - the stuff that needed to be kept because 23 there was no electronic copy, for example, the wage claims, 24 they're still sitting in the office. That came out of 25 the - going through the material. 26 27 Q. You said you did a few hours on the Monday. How much 28 did you do other than the Monday? 29 A. I did a big hit, and I thought it was with the 30 Mount Gravatt meeting on the 28th. I know I was in the 31 office a bit earlier then. I may have done some then, but 32 I did - I remember doing a big bulk and I'll have to go and 33 look at my records because I went through - and the stuff 34 arrived the week before, the compactus arrived earlier, so 35 I'll just have to look at my diary records. 36 37 Q. How did it arrive? How did the compactus arrive? 38 A. They were brought over with a lot of - during the 39 month of March, there was a lot of furniture, chairs; the 40 compactus was brought over. 41 42 Q. Using what method? 43 A. I don't know what method, how they transported them. 44 The compactus - I don't think you would transport them in 45 like a trailer, or something like that. They're quite -- 46 47 Q. You don't know?


1 A. I don't know, no, but I couldn't imagine them in a 2 trailer, they're quite big. 3 4 Q. You know from the material obtained by the 5 Royal Commission that the truck carrying the boxes of paper 6 from Mr Hanna's house took the material to the tip on the 7 Friday, that is, 4 April 2014. You have heard that 8 evidence? 9 A. Yes, I have. 10 11 Q. And that the material appears to have been taken from 12 the office on 1 April - yes? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Was any other material taken on another day, to your 16 knowledge? 17 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 18 19 Q. There were a few days in between it being taken away 20 and it being destroyed - yes? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. Did you have any discussion with Mr Hanna about that 24 delay? 25 A. No, because I wasn't too concerned about what left the 26 Union office, and normally I expected that it would have 27 gone to the tip. 28 29 Q. Did you know that there was a delay of a number of 30 days? 31 A. No. As I said, all this smoke and mirrors about how 32 it left the Union office, I discovered that during these 33 proceedings. 34 35 Q. Did you know that there was a delay of a number of 36 days? 37 A. No, I didn't know at the time, no. I do now, but, 38 yeah. 39 40 Q. Did you discuss any of that issue about how to 41 actually dispose of the material with Mr Hanna? 42 A. No, because he told me he was going to bury it. That 43 was the only discussion about the method. 44 45 Q. When you were presented with a receipt or an invoice 46 to approve in relation to the tip, did you make any further 47 inquiries?


1 A. No, because it linked in with what I thought normally 2 happens, it's gone to a tip, you need payment, and 3 I authorised the payment. 4 5 Q. You didn't make any further inquiry of Mr Hanna or, 6 indeed, Ms Shaw? 7 A. No, Cherie brought it to me. We had a number of 8 financial transactions. Having tip fees wasn't unusual in 9 my eyes, so I just authorised them. 10 11 Q. Did you understand it was for tip fees only, did you? 12 A. I thought it was for tip fees, yes. 13 14 Q. $770 worth of tip fees? 15 A. As I said, over the years, we've had big stuff taken 16 to tips before. Originally, I thought it was about 17 300-and-something dollars, but I have discovered in these 18 proceedings it was higher. That wasn't - that didn't baulk 19 me. As I said, we have a lot of expenditure in other 20 transactions. 767, was it good or bad? I wouldn't have a 21 clue. 22 23 Q. A careful man like you, you thought it was $300 or 24 something until you saw something different this week - 25 yes? 26 A. No, no. Cherie told me that she needed to make 27 payment. She never told me the quantum. I was quite happy 28 to pay it. 29 30 Q. She didn't tell you the quantum? 31 A. No, no, she didn't tell me - I can't recall the 32 quantum at the time. As I said, I thought it was $300, but 33 I had no problem in authorising it. 34 35 Q. Are you saying you didn't sign it, or sign a piece of 36 paper, you were just told about it and authorised it 37 verbally? 38 A. No. Later on, if I give authorisation, Cherie then 39 pays it and then it gets - what do you call it - 40 reconciliated later that week for any type of expenditure, 41 whether it is petty cash - you know, a lot of the - I get a 42 report at the end of the week. So Cherie, I'm assuming, 43 would have had that report at some later stage, but it 44 didn't - it wasn't something that was eye-catching. 45 46 Q. Did you have to approve the weekly reconciliation 47 yourself?


1 A. Yes. Sometimes it would be after, you know, like, 2 Cherie had already processed some of the stuff. At the end 3 of the week, it would have to be authorised by me, yes. 4 5 Q. Are you saying you didn't know what amount you were 6 authorising when Cherie asked you? 7 A. No, Cherie asked me about the payment of stuff that 8 was buried, or the tip; I was fine with that. Cherie would 9 have then paid it and then I would have got, you know, 10 within a short period after, a reconciliation. 11 12 Q. Just to clarify, I'm not quite clear, do you say that 13 you didn't know the precise amount you were authorising 14 when Cherie asked you? 15 A. I don't remember talking about a particular quantum, 16 other than I've got $300 in my head, that's to be honest 17 with you. I can't remember the whole conversation, other 18 than Cherie came in to ask me later on that David wanted 19 payment for the material that went to the tip. 20 21 Q. You say that she didn't have a piece of paper that she 22 was in particular asking you to authorise, and she didn't 23 ask you to authorise a particular amount, just a topic? 24 A. As I said, I can't remember the amount. I didn't see 25 a receipt, I know that, and she asked, "Is it all right to 26 pay it?", and I said, "Yes". 27 28 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. They are my questions. 29 30 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr McCarthy? 31 32 MR McCARTHY: Might I have a few minutes, Commissioner? 33 34 THE COMMISSIONER: Five minutes? 35 36 MR McCARTHY: Yes. 37 38 THE COMMISSIONER: The hearing will resume at 25 past 2. 39 40 SHORT ADJOURNMENT 41 42 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr McCarthy? 43 44 MR McCARTHY: Thank you for that opportunity, 45 Commissioner. I am content the issue is sufficiently 46 joined. I have no questions. 47


1 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Agius? 2 3 MR AGIUS: I do have very short re-examination, but there 4 is one matter that has arisen during the course of the 5 examination and I have deliberately not spoken to Mr Ravbar 6 since his examination started. I would like to raise that 7 matter with him in conference. I will need about five or 8 10 minutes. My re-examination will be very short. 9 10 THE COMMISSIONER: All right. 11 12 MR AGIUS: I apologise for this, but I didn't know whether 13 my friend would be cross-examining or not. 14 15 THE COMMISSIONER: It is good to get light exercise 16 walking back and forth. Five or 10? Let's say 10, then 17 you won't be rushed. 18 19 MR AGIUS: 10. Thank you. 20 21 THE COMMISSIONER: That means, I think, I will return just 22 before 2.40. 23 24 SHORT ADJOURNMENT 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Agius? 27 28 MR AGIUS: Thank you for that time, Mr Commissioner. 29 30 <EXAMINATION BY MR AGIUS: 31 32 MR AGIUS: Q. There are two subject matters I want to 33 ask you about. One relates to some documents which 34 Counsel Assisting is kindly having copied for us. The 35 first relates to some questions you were asked about your 36 examination of the EBA files and whether or not you looked 37 at the EBA files to see whether or not any amendments had 38 been made to them by hand, or whether there was any 39 handwriting on them. 40 A. Mmm-hmm. 41 42 Q. What's your understanding, and what was your 43 understanding, as at 1 April 2014, as to what the process 44 was in relation to the registration and approval of EBA 45 documents? 46 A. Once a document is approved by Fair Work Australia, it 47 becomes a legally binding document. Then it gets put into

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1 our system. You can't amend an enterprise agreement once 2 it's certified. You can't make any alterations or changes 3 to it. 4 5 Q. Did you have a belief as to the ability to obtain 6 copies of certified EBA agreements? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. What was your belief? 10 A. The same thing, that you can't amend it or change or 11 vary the agreement with hand notes -- 12 13 Q. Where could you find a copy if you were required to? 14 A. On our system, we have it electronic. You'd need to 15 go through Fair Work Australia and obtain a copy but 16 they're readily available. 17 18 Q. There is a searchable index on Fair Work Australia's 19 website, is there not? 20 A. Yes, there is. 21 22 Q. That was available in April of 2014? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. It has been available for many years? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. It is searchable and you can bring up a copy of a 29 certified agreement there? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. You also said you maintained electronic copies on your 33 system? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. Did you leave for destruction any EBA documents which 37 were not available electronically on your system? 38 A. No. 39 40 Q. You also referred in one portion of your evidence to 41 EBAs to which both the CFMEU and the BLF were a party, and 42 that you saw some of those when you went through the BLF 43 documents? 44 A. That's correct. 45 46 Q. When the CFMEU and the BLF were a party to an EBA, or 47 an agreement of that nature, what happened so far as the


1 availability of copies of those documents? 2 A. Again, both Unions become signatories. They're 3 available on Fair Work Australia. They're available 4 electronically in our system. We'll always keep a hardcopy 5 for the current round of the agreement, so you'll have 6 both. Yes, there is no difference in respect of the 7 process. 8 9 Q. Did you believe there was any need to keep what I'll 10 call a BLF copy of an agreement where both the BLF and the 11 CFMEU were signatories? 12 A. No. As I said earlier, there was a lot of duplication 13 between the two Unions in a lot of areas, and there was no 14 need to keep it, no. 15 16 Q. The last matter relates to your diary. I understand 17 some copies have been made and I'm indebted for that. 18 19 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. I provide two copies. 20 21 MR AGIUS: Might one go to the Commissioner and one to the 22 witness? 23 24 THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want them tendered, Mr Agius? 25 26 MR AGIUS: I will invite my friend to tender them. We 27 were given a Notice to Produce, copies of the electronic 28 diary, and during the short time we've had, we've been able 29 to do that and I've had a very short opportunity, for which 30 we're grateful, to show it to Mr Ravbar. I would like to 31 ask him some questions about it. 32 33 MS McNAUGHTON: Could that be received into evidence on 34 the basis of what Mr Agius said? 35 36 THE COMMISSIONER: Document Disposal Case Study MFI-16 37 will be Mr Ravbar's diary from 24 February 2014 to 4 May 38 2014. 39 40 DOCUMENT DISPOSAL CASE STUDY MFI-16 - COPY OF 41 MICHAEL RAVBAR'S DIARY FROM 24/02/2014 TO 04/05/2014 42 43 MR AGIUS: Q. Would you turn up the page that relates to 44 the week commencing Monday, 24 March. 45 A. I'm on it, yes. 46 47 Q. Do you recognise that as a copy of your electronic


1 diary? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. Prior to giving your evidence today about the 5 examination of BLF boxes that you said you did on 28 March, 6 did you consult your diary to check that date? 7 A. No. 8 9 Q. We've had the benefit of being taken through your 10 mobile phone records for that day and you've made certain 11 concessions in relation to that. Looking at your diary 12 entry now, does that assist you to say what you did, if 13 anything, in relation to BLF boxes on that Friday, that 14 being 28 March? 15 A. Looking at this documentation - as I said in my 16 evidence, I did seven hours in one hit and looking at my 17 diary, one of the meetings - I would say that Thursday, 18 27 March, I was in the office because, as I said, it was a 19 priority to get the job done. I know the material and 20 documentation came from the BLF that week. So, yes, I may 21 have got the wrong day, but I know I did the work. I know 22 what was in the documentation. I know what came into the 23 office and I would say Thursday, 27 March. 24 25 MS McNAUGHTON: There appears to be some personal details 26 in the diary. Could they be subject to a non-publication 27 order. For example, a child's name has just come to my 28 attention. 29 30 THE COMMISSIONER: I direct that any private telephone 31 numbers, residential addresses, personal email addresses, 32 details of Mr Ravbar's children, or any other part of his 33 personal life that is not relevant to his life as a Trade 34 Union official be kept confidential. 35 36 MR AGIUS: Thank you. 37 38 Q. You were shown MFI-14 which is a confidential exhibit 39 that lists mobile telephone records in relation to your 40 telephone and, it appears, other telephones, and you were 41 taken through the entries for 28 March 2014? 42 A. Mmm-hmm. 43 44 Q. I make no criticism about this, but you weren't taken 45 through the entries on 27 March. Can I ask you to look at 46 the entries for 27 March on MFI-14. It will probably have 47 to come up on the screen, if that's possible. I don't know


1 whether that can be done, with a confidential document. It 2 not, we may have to ask you to look at a copy, but I only 3 have one copy. 4 5 THE COMMISSIONER: I have one copy which I can give to the 6 witness. 7 8 MS McNAUGHTON: It was marked, so there should be the 9 exhibit copy. There's a copy there. 10 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, the 27th, yes. 12 13 MR AGIUS: Q. Thank you. Do you see that starts at 14 27 March at 11:23:16? 15 A. Mmm-hmm. Yes. 16 17 Q. It goes through, so far as the 27th is concerned, 18 until 17:05:46. 19 20 THE COMMISSIONER: 17:08, actually. 21 22 MR AGIUS: Q. Sorry, 17:08:46. 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. In terms of the use we can get from this document to 26 indicate where you might have been, or where at least your 27 phone was being used on that day, the first entry that 28 appears to be relevant to that task is one which is on the 29 fifth line, and it is at 11:48:45. The number is 157B and 30 if I followed my learned friend's explanation of the 31 document, it appears to indicate that your phone at least 32 was being used and picked up by a tower at Bowen Hills 33 South? 34 A. That's correct. 35 36 Q. The last entry that again has an area, or at least 37 identifies a tower, would be 16:08:46, 47B? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. Does that appear to indicate that your phone was 41 picked up by a tower at Bowen Hills South? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. Each of the other entries that relate to your phone 45 all appear to relate to signals received at Bowen Hills 46 South between those two times; do you see that? 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. Where there is a destination or an identification of a 3 tower? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. Does that help your recollection at all as to where it 7 is likely you were on 27 March? 8 A. I was in the office that day and, as I said, I knew 9 I did it around that time and I knew the time - well, the 10 time lines. There was a bit of documentation to go through 11 and also there was a meeting cancelled in my diary and 12 rescheduled and, as I said, I'm pretty confident that was 13 the actual day of doing -- 14 15 Q. Just by reference to your diary of the 27th, it 16 records 7.30 to 8.30am, Dave Hanna? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Can you recall now whether you had a meeting with 20 Mr Hanna at that time? 21 A. Not that particular one, no. 22 23 Q. The next one, 9 until 10, "Linda Brangan"? 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. Do you know who Linda Brangan is? 27 A. Yes. She's a partner in Hall Payne in the PI area. 28 29 Q. Can you recall whether or not you had that meeting? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. What was the nature of that meeting? 33 A. Every usually six months, Linda comes and sees me. 34 One thing that's not right, we didn't go for coffee. She 35 provides me a report in respect of all the PI claims, 36 issues that may be happening. I might raise issues with 37 the membership about problems with some of the WorkCover 38 claims or PI claims. I remember - I mean, generally the 39 meetings don't go long. She provides - she usually sends 40 me a report and we go through it. Just a general catchup, 41 if you want to call it. 42 43 Q. Do you have a recollection as to how long those 44 meetings usually take? 45 A. Probably half an hour. They're not long. 46 47 Q. The next entry is 1pm to 2pm, "Teleconference", with


1 Mr Hanna participating. Can you recall whether that 2 teleconference took place and whether you participated in 3 it? 4 A. I can't recall participating in the teleconference for 5 that particular day. Sometimes with the teleconferences 6 from the Federal Office, you don't need all the attendants, 7 depending on the matter, but I don't recall actually 8 participating in the teleconference, but I could have. 9 10 Q. But you can make some inquiries about that once you've 11 finished your evidence to see if there are any records as 12 to whether or not you did participate? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. The next entry, 3 to 4.30pm, there's a meeting with 16 three people named there. Who are they? 17 A. That's our legal industrial team and wage recovery 18 area. 19 20 Q. Do you see that there's a meeting the day before in 21 the diary, 12.30 to 3pm, on the 26th? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. Do you see there's a meeting the day after, 7.30 until 25 8.30am? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. Can you say anything about the meeting on the 27th, 29 that is, the meeting that is scheduled on the 27th? 30 A. There was a period - I wanted time to undertake an 31 audit of the BLF. I would have cancelled that meeting. 32 It's not unusual for me to cancel those meetings with the 33 IR legal team, and if it was there for Friday, I wouldn't 34 have - I don't recall actually having a meeting on that 35 particular day with the legal IR team. 36 37 Q. The next three entries relate to Sub-Branch meetings 38 and they appear to overlap in time. To the best of your 39 recollection, did you attend any one of those Sub-Branch 40 meetings? 41 A. I know I didn't attend - I know I didn't attend 42 Maryborough and Toowoomba, and the way the diary is, we put 43 all sub-branches of the Union in the diary for me to 44 attend. I'm 95 per cent confident, not 100 per cent, that 45 I didn't attend the Gold Coast one. There will be a record 46 whether I attended or not. 47


1 Q. And you can chase that up after you have finished 2 giving evidence? 3 A. Yes, I can get that, yes. 4 5 Q. Thank you. What is the best of your recollection, 6 assisted now by the diary, as to when you say it was that 7 you went through the BLF boxes in the office? 8 A. I'm pretty confident, if not 100 per cent confident, 9 that I did it on Thursday, 27 March. I knew I did it at 10 the end of the week. I thought I did it consecutively, and 11 I know when I did the first batch, that was the biggest 12 batch that I did in respect of the time lines going through 13 the documents, and I would say that I did it on Thursday, 14 27 March. 15 16 MR AGIUS: Thank you. That is the re-examination, 17 Mr Commissioner. 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Agius. Ms McNaughton? 20 21 MS McNAUGHTON: No, thank you. 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: Should Mr Ravbar be excused from 24 further attendance on his summons? 25 26 MS McNAUGHTON: At this stage, we would prefer him not to 27 be excused but we will let his representatives know as soon 28 as we have made a final determination. 29 30 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Ravbar, you have heard what 31 Ms McNaughton just said. You can leave the witness box 32 now. If you are excused, Mr Pasfield will be told and he 33 will no doubt tell you straight away. Thank you for 34 attending today. 35 36 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 37 38 MS McNAUGHTON: Commissioner, there is just some 39 housekeeping. Might I have received into evidence three 40 further email records in relation to 1 April issues, but 41 they are the 1st, the 2nd and 3 April in terms of the top 42 date on each of the documents. 43 44 THE COMMISSIONER: One document begins with an email at 45 4.48pm on 1 April, the next one 4.06 on the 2nd, and the 46 third one, 2.58 on the 3rd. Those are the ones? 47


1 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, thank you. 2 3 THE COMMISSIONER: Those three documents will be referred 4 to as Document Disposal Case Study MFI-17, being 5 collections of emails. 6 7 DOCUMENT DISPOSAL CASE STUDY MFI-17 - SERIES OF EMAILS 8 BEGINNING AT 4.48PM ON 1/04/2014, 4.06PM ON 2/04/2015 AND 9 2.58PM ON 3/04/2014 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 12 13 MS McNAUGHTON: I call Mr Hanna in relation to him being 14 made available for cross-examination. 15 16 <DAVID ARTHUR HANNA, sworn: [3.00pm] 17 18 THE COMMISSIONER: You have no questions, Ms McNaughton? 19 20 MS McNAUGHTON: I have a short number of questions to 21 start. 22 23 <EXAMINATION BY MS McNAUGHTON: 24 25 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Mr Hanna, can I ask you in relation 26 to some of the evidence that has fallen from some of the 27 other witnesses this week about, I think, three topics. 28 First of all, one or two of the witnesses have talked about 29 a horse float and a box trailer taking down material. What 30 is your recollection about that? 31 A. After hearing that, it's - it is more than likely 32 possible that - I don't 100 per cent recollect taking the 33 trailer down, the box trailer, but I do remember box 34 trailers there, and it is plausible that I did do that. 35 36 Q. Another topic. You would have heard Ms Shaw and her 37 evidence about you providing her an invoice and she said 38 that you told her to destroy it. What do you say about 39 that? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. You did -- 43 A. I said, "You're probably best not keeping that", words 44 to that effect. 45 46 Q. Why did you say that? 47 A. Because of the nature of the document in removing all

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1 those - all that material from the office. 2 3 Q. And a further topic, can I ask you: you would have 4 heard today that there's an email where a number of people 5 are included on 1 April -- 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. -- which attaches the Notice to Produce. Can you 9 recall receiving such an email? 10 A. No, I can't recall receiving the email. 11 12 Q. Could I have the witness shown MFI-12. Do you see 13 there that your name is -- 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. -- included in one of the names? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. That's on the third line in the "To" section. 20 A. Next to Dean Hall. Yes. 21 22 Q. Do you say you can't recall getting that email at all, 23 or on 1 April, or what's the position? 24 A. I don't recall at all, if and when, and all that, so - 25 yeah, it was some time ago. 26 27 Q. An additional question: in terms of the merger of the 28 BLF and CFMEU, can you just give some idea of the dates on 29 which it was agreed and the various dates that you 30 understand it occurred? 31 A. Yes. Okay. In 2013, negotiations throughout that 32 year, started early in that year. I think it was October 33 Cairns, at the conference that the CFMEU had, that it was a 34 motion - a resolution was passed. 35 36 Q. Sorry, a conference at Cairns? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. Yes. 40 A. A resolution was passed endorsing the integration, 41 amalgamation of the Union. So we started moving some 42 matters, items from the office, over to Bowen Hills from 43 Roma Street in December, some of the furniture and they 44 were doing some renovations over there to accommodate the 45 extra organisers moving into the building. In the month of 46 January, not a lot happened, but some stuff sort of 47 trickled over there. In the month of February, a lot more

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1 started going over there. The office staff, other than 2 Lisa Stiller, started at Bowen Hills in January. The 3 organisers all worked out of Bowen Hills from the start of 4 February. They continued to be paid by the BLF until the 5 end of March, which was the end of the term, and it was 6 agreed that at the start of the new term, that it would be 7 all under the CFMEU. Federally - it was finalised, the 8 Federal amalgamation of the two Unions, and then the two 9 State Unions were finalised on - rubber stamped to take 10 effect on 1 May 2014. 11 12 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. They are my questions. 13 14 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Agius? 15 16 <EXAMINATION BY MR AGIUS: 17 18 MR AGIUS: Q. Mr Hanna, the amalgamation and combining 19 the two offices had quite a disruptive effect, did it not? 20 A. Oh, not so much to the organisers, but in terms of the 21 office - you know, Michael sort of ran that office over 22 there. It did have a disruptive effect, yes. 23 24 Q. You've mentioned that renovations were undertaken to 25 the CFMEU offices in Bowen Hills? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. That was partially to accommodate the influx of BLF 29 personnel? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. And partially to accommodate the influx of records, 33 that is, current records that might be expected to come 34 from the BLF? 35 A. Possibly. 36 37 Q. Those renovations hadn't been completed in February or 38 March, had they? There were still bits of them continuing 39 to be done? 40 A. I think there was some small parts of that being done. 41 I'm fairly confident that the organisers' rooms were 42 completed and that happened over the Christmas break when 43 most of them were on leave. 44 45 Q. So far as the office staff were concerned, there was a 46 need for people at the CFMEU offices to change offices and 47 there was a need for accommodation to be found for BLF

.24/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 450 D A HANNA (Mr Agius) Transcript produced by DTI

1 office staff? 2 A. Yes, there were a couple of the girls, Hollie and 3 Michelle, that they had to make room and accommodate. 4 5 Q. And you agreed that the term ended for both Unions on 6 31 March and the new term started on 1 April? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. And that would have created quite a lot of work at 10 least for the membership section to do, to try to get up to 11 date with the merger of BLF and CFMEU members? 12 A. Possibly. 13 14 Q. This amalgamation led to a large number of boxes being 15 brought over from the BLF offices at Roma Street, or Upper 16 Roma Street, to Bowen Hills? 17 A. Yes. So in December, or once it was endorsed for the 18 integration to happen, Lisa Stiller was - I instructed her 19 to start packing up the office and working out what's to 20 keep, what's to go, what's to archive, and that happened 21 from that point onwards. There was an amount taken down 22 that had to be required, minutes of meetings, those sorts 23 of things, were taken down to archive down to Yatala, as 24 I said earlier, and Lisa and Paula liaised with what 25 information Paula actually wanted in terms of the finances 26 over in Bowen Hills that she didn't want down at Yatala for 27 archiving, and then there was a lot of other material, 28 EBAs, all those sorts of things, that had to be boxed up 29 and, as previously also said, the gazettes and those sorts 30 of things. 31 32 Q. Generally, you don't disagree with anything Mr Ravbar 33 said he found when he went through the boxes that had come 34 from the EBA? 35 A. No. No. There was a lot of old EBAs. When I took 36 over as Secretary in 2011, we - it was also the start of 37 the new round of EBAs, so we had our own EBAs, which were 38 just BLF only, which were the concreters, steel fixers, 39 scaffolders, pump operators, those sorts of things were BLF 40 only. We had our agreement starting in January that year 41 and so instead of having those in hard copy, therefore, you 42 went to an iPad system where the organisers could download 43 them direct and also all their safety auditing and all that 44 sort of stuff was also done via the iPad through that, 45 through that two-year period, 2011 and 2012. 46 47 Q. Your office was attempting to introduce a new system


1 which would replicate what the Fair Work Commission had 2 which was electronic copies of -- 3 A. In terms of - in terms of -- 4 5 Q. -- EBAs? 6 A. Yes. Sorry, Mr Agius. In terms of EBAs, yes, and in 7 terms of safety, one of our biggest problems was trying to 8 keep the records of safety in some form and our coordinator 9 for safety at the time came up with an app that allowed 10 that a lot more easier to keep and to streamline, better 11 records and the EBAs, because there were different ones for 12 different contractors, that the organisers and the 13 delegates could access that online via the iPad. The rest 14 of the administration stuff we didn't make any changes to 15 the systems knowing that at some point in the near future 16 that we were integrating and amalgamating the CFMEU. 17 18 Q. Archival material, that is, material which, 19 for example, under Fair Work rules you need to keep for 20 seven years, was packed up and stored at Yatala? 21 A. Yes, in the archive boxes and they go down, they're 22 marked up. 23 24 Q. There was no need to bring those over to the CFMEU? 25 A. No. No, as I say, Lisa and Paula were liaising, to my 26 understanding, fairly closely to work out what was needed 27 at the CFMEU and what wasn't needed. 28 29 Q. Would you agree that the BLF, unlike the CFMEU, didn't 30 have anything like a yearly clean-out practice or a 31 document control measure whereby every year documents for 32 the 8th year, that is, the 8th year in the past, would be 33 thrown out? 34 A. No, we didn't have a locked-in yearly system, but we 35 only had a small office and that's why Yatala was purchased 36 to allow us to store the majority of our documentation down 37 there, amongst other things. 38 39 Q. It doesn't surprise you to learn that there were boxes 40 of very old receipt books? 41 A. No. 42 43 MS McNAUGHTON: Could Mr Agius just clarify where that -- 44 45 MR AGIUS: Q. That were brought over to the CFMEU? 46 A. Yes. So whatever Paula and Lisa didn't want archived, 47 the finances went to Paula and everything else went over


1 from our office to Bowen Hills. 2 3 Q. Mr Ravbar's evidence about the age of some of the 4 material that he found in the BLF boxes doesn't surprise 5 you? 6 A. No, it doesn't surprise me. 7 8 Q. Do I take it, from what you've said, that you yourself 9 didn't go through each of the boxes that had been brought 10 over? 11 A. No, no, I didn't. 12 13 Q. Will you agree that we've had different figures from 14 different people that there was something like 60 to 80 15 boxes of material? 16 A. I know there was a lot. I - you know, that's 17 possible. There was a lot. 18 19 Q. And they were mainly stored, when they got to the 20 CFMEU, in the foyer of 14 and in the first open space that 21 you come to once you move from the foyer? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. And would you agree that they did take up space? 25 A. Yes, they did. 26 27 Q. Did you think it unreasonable that someone like 28 Mr Ravbar would set a deadline to have all of those matters 29 cleared away and organised? 30 A. No. You know, it was a nuisance. On the back of the 31 renovations and having that stuff there, it was a bit of a 32 clutter, but in terms of setting a date, you know, that was 33 a matter for the office staff. I didn't sort of get too 34 much involved in the office. 35 36 Q. On 1 April, and for the sake of my questions if you 37 accept that that was the day that material was moved from 38 the CFMEU offices by horse trailer and, it seems, by 39 box trailer out to your premises. 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. I'll use 1 April as the notional date for that, but 43 all the evidence seems to point there. 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. On that day can you recall what time you came to the 47 CFMEU offices?


1 A. No. 2 3 Q. Was the shedding and document reorganisation process 4 going on at the time you arrived there? 5 A. I don't recall. I don't think so. I'm not 6 100 per cent sure. 7 8 Q. At some stage you became aware, though, that documents 9 were being shredded? 10 A. Yeah, that was more so the next day and it might have 11 been some time late that afternoon. 12 13 Q. Late that afternoon, that is, on 1 April? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. That caused you concern? 17 A. Well, it was just, as I say, as I said earlier, yes, 18 I was - you know, I had a view that, well, there seemed to 19 be a lot of activity going on. Well, there was a lot of 20 activity going on and a lot of stuff being moved over and 21 at that time Michael asked me to organise the removal of 22 those boxes and files and whatever else was out in unit 14 23 or building 14. 24 25 Q. You were concerned when you saw documents being 26 shredded? 27 A. No. 28 29 Q. No? You see, it was you that asked Mr Cameron to 30 cover up the cameras, wasn't it? 31 A. Yes, I did ask Rob Cameron to cover the cameras. 32 33 Q. That was your idea, wasn't it? 34 A. That was on the back of discussion after I had with 35 I believe Michael and Paula might have been there as well. 36 37 Q. I suggest to you that to the extent to which you've 38 said that Michael said to you that the cameras should be 39 covered up, that you're mistaken, that that suggestion 40 didn't come from Michael? 41 A. I would suggest that you're wrong. It's my 42 recollection that Michael had concerns of security. I knew 43 nothing about the security system and it was, you know - 44 Paula looked after security and I said, "Well, if it's a 45 concern for you, turn them off." And at that point, "No, 46 you can't" - I don't know if it was Michael or Paula said 47 they can't be turned off and then the suggestion was made


1 to cover them. 2 3 Q. You see, I suggest to you that Paula did not hear any 4 conversation between Michael and you concerning covering up 5 the cameras. You originally said that she was present and 6 that Bob Cameron was present. Do you still say that 7 Bob Cameron was there? 8 A. I said possibly. 9 10 MS McNAUGHTON: I object to that. 11 12 THE WITNESS: I said possibly. Sorry. 13 14 MS McNAUGHTON: I think the witness has corrected that 15 problem. 16 17 MR AGIUS: Q. At page 87 of the transcript, what you 18 said was: 19 20 He gave the instruction to cover them up, 21 yes. 22 23 My learned friend asked you: 24 25 Q. Who was there when he gave the -- 26 A. I don't know - I can't recall who was 27 there, but they were certainly covered up. 28 29 Q. You say he gave the instruction to 30 cover up the security cameras? 31 A. Yes. He was concerned about the 32 security cameras and they should be covered 33 or obstructed. 34 35 Q. How did you receive that direction 36 from Mr Ravbar? 37 A. Verbally. 38 39 Q. Was anyone else there when that verbal 40 direction was given? 41 A. Yeah, I think Rob Cameron might have 42 been there, Paula Masters. Paula looks 43 after the security stuff and knows where, 44 you know, the cameras and that are. 45 46 That was your evidence on 22 September? 47 A. Yeah.


1 2 Q. On page 87. 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. It seems that Mr Cameron's evidence is that he didn't 6 hear that instruction from Mr Ravbar, he says he got the 7 instruction from you. What do you say about that? 8 A. Well, as I said there, I think Rob was there at the 9 time, Rob and Paula, I'm not 100 per cent sure, but, you 10 know, the security cameras, I couldn't give a - you know, 11 to me I didn't give a bugger about it, it wasn't my office. 12 Sorry. I'd just moved into the office. Even where they 13 were, I have no recollection of where they were and so it 14 was an issue for Michael and I was happy to follow his 15 direction and arrange that for him. 16 17 Q. Do you know that Paula Masters doesn't corroborate 18 your version of that? 19 A. Well, that's - that's a matter for other people then. 20 21 Q. Yes. You see, I suggest to you that you're making 22 that up. What do you say to that? 23 A. Well, I suggest that you're wrong and I stick with 24 what I've said. 25 26 Q. I'm suggesting that you're saying that because you 27 want to hurt Michael Ravbar? 28 A. No, I don't wish any malice on Michael Ravbar. 29 30 Q. You no longer have a motive to take him down? 31 A. No, I no longer have a motive to take Michael down. 32 33 Q. When did you lose that? 34 A. Oh, when I resigned from the Union. 35 36 Q. But do you -- 37 A. I wish Michael and the Union very much success going 38 forward. 39 40 Q. You certainly told Mr Skourdoumbis that you wanted to 41 take Michael down, didn't you? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. You said words to the effect that if you were going, 45 you were going to make sure that he went too? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. That was how you felt about him, wasn't it? 2 A. Yes. There was no love lost between the two of us. 3 4 Q. Indeed, you were so motivated to bring him down that 5 you altered the invoice or receipt that you received from 6 the tipping truck, from the tip truck company to remove 7 your name and to substitute Michael Ravbar's name? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. And you were doing your best in your conversation with 11 Mr Skourdoumbis to exaggerate the situation so far as 12 Michael Ravbar was concerned, weren't you? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. You went so far as to say that you believed that the 16 documents that were destroyed were documents that had been 17 caught by the subpoena; you said that to Mr Skourdoumbis? 18 A. In that conversation, yes. 19 20 Q. Didn't you? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. But you don't believe that now, do you? 24 A. No. 25 26 Q. And that's because you didn't have a close look at any 27 of the documents that were thrown out, did you? 28 A. I didn't have a look at all. 29 30 Q. You didn't look at the Notice to Produce when it was 31 subsequently made available to you? 32 A. No, I didn't. 33 34 Q. So you had no way of justifying your statement to 35 Mr Skourdoumbis that the documents that were destroyed were 36 documents that ought to have been produced to the 37 Royal Commission? 38 A. Correct. 39 40 Q. You were prepared to make up those lies about 41 Michael Ravbar, weren't you? 42 A. In terms of the discussions I had with Leo was around 43 the same time that - well, obviously the investigation was 44 going on and I wanted to, you know, in terms of politics, 45 get a better position. 46 47 Q. Yes.


1 A. So that was it. 2 3 Q. I'm not challenging you about this, but you freely 4 admit that you were wanting at that time to damage 5 Michael Ravbar and at least for the word to go out through 6 Leo that you had the goods on him? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. And you hoped that in some way that might influence 10 the National Executive in relation to your future? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. And I won't use the word "blackmail", but what you 14 were doing was building the strongest case you could to try 15 to impress upon people that if you went down, you were 16 going to take Michael Ravbar with you? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Why didn't you tell Mr Skourdoumbis then that it was 20 Michael who had directed the covering up of the cameras, if 21 that, in fact, had occurred? 22 A. I don't even know if that was decided - I don't think 23 that was mentioned, the cameras were mentioned. 24 25 Q. No, it is not mentioned. Why didn't you? It's pretty 26 damning evidence. Why didn't you say that to him? 27 A. It didn't come into my head at that time. 28 29 Q. You didn't make it up at that time? 30 A. Well, I didn't make it up here either. 31 32 Q. You made it up here after you realised, didn't you, 33 having given a day's evidence, that your future was looking 34 pretty black and there was your last-ditch attempt to take 35 Michael Ravbar with you? 36 A. No. When I come back on the Tuesday I was happy to 37 tell - answer the questions to the best of my knowledge 38 going forward and I did and I still do and I stand by what 39 I said. 40 41 Q. You wanted to embellish your story in a way that would 42 fix Michael Ravbar with guilty knowledge on the day of the 43 document destruction, didn't you? 44 A. No. 45 46 Q. You see, you knew that the previous plan wasn't going 47 to work? You knew that you could no longer maintain that


1 documents that were destroyed were documents that ought to 2 have been brought to the Royal Commission because you knew 3 you'd never seen those documents, so you knew that that 4 would be exposed as an exaggeration? 5 A. What's the question? 6 7 Q. Well, I'm putting that to you as a proposition. When 8 you were giving evidence, you knew that your previous 9 method of damaging Michael Ravbar would be exposed as being 10 without any substance? 11 A. No. 12 13 Q. And you decided that you would invent something that 14 would harm Michael Ravbar by attributing to him -- 15 A. I could only say the facts that I know. 16 17 Q. Yes. You see, when you gave evidence, you suggested 18 that it was Michael Ravbar who organised for the 19 coordinators to come in; isn't that right? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. And that's not true, is it? 23 A. Why isn't it true? 24 25 Q. Each of the coordinators who has given evidence about 26 how they came to be there said that they were contacted by 27 you? 28 A. That's right, because Michael asked me to get the 29 coordinators in and I actually - to my recollection, 30 I actually said I don't recall how they were contacted but 31 they were contacted. 32 33 Q. You said that he texted them? 34 A. I said he possibly may have texted them. 35 36 Q. And yet, you knew that you were the person who had 37 called them and told them to come down? 38 A. I said I couldn't recall. 39 40 Q. No, that's what you say now? 41 A. Whatever I said on the Tuesday stands. 42 43 Q. You'd go a long way to see Michael Ravbar come down 44 with you, wouldn't you? 45 A. No. 46 47 Q. You went so far as to forge the document and to try


1 and make out -- 2 A. To better my position, yes. 3 4 Q. -- you had documentary support for your case against 5 him, didn't you? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Forgery is a criminal offence, do you know that? The 9 document that you say you waved in front of 10 Michael O'Connor, do you know that forging that document is 11 a criminal offence? 12 A. It all depends if he knows what was in it, I guess. 13 I don't know what the laws are around forgery. 14 15 Q. You were prepared to go that far, to deliberately 16 create a false document to implicate Michael Ravbar? 17 A. At that time, in that time, yes. 18 19 Q. You never told any of the Executive about 20 Michael Ravbar's role, what you claim to be his role, in 21 covering up the cameras, the security cameras, in the 22 office, did you? 23 A. It never came up. 24 25 Q. I'm sorry? 26 A. It never came up. 27 28 Q. But you never raised it? 29 A. Neither did anyone else. 30 31 Q. Yes. 32 A. It got raised here and I answered the question. The 33 question was asked and I answered the question. 34 35 Q. You didn't think of it until after you'd given your 36 first lot of evidence here when you returned on the second 37 day? 38 A. I didn't think of it until I was asked the question 39 and then I answered it. 40 41 Q. Yes. How could it be that was something that wouldn't 42 be firmly in your mind if indeed it had happened? 43 A. I answered - when I - I didn't think of it until the 44 question was asked and I answered it. 45 46 Q. It would be extraordinary at the time of the 47 amalgamation for Michael Ravbar to take you into his


1 confidence and to get you to do his work in covering up the 2 security cameras in his office. 3 A. I don't think it's -- 4 5 Q. Doesn't that strike you as absolutely extraordinary? 6 A. No. 7 8 Q. You say you didn't even know where the cameras were 9 and yet you say -- 10 A. At that time -- 11 12 Q. -- he assigned that task to you? 13 A. He assigned the task to me because - he asked me to do 14 it. I went to Rob, or Rob was there, I can't actually 15 recall, and Rob knew where they were and Rob went about and 16 covered them. 17 18 Q. Why do you think Mr Ravbar, if he was going to commit 19 this act which might stain him as being guilty of having 20 something to hide, would have trusted you with that 21 information rather than just going and either instructing a 22 staff member to turn off the security cameras or putting 23 something in front of the cameras himself? 24 A. Probably the same reason he trusted me, or he said 25 earlier that he doesn't trust me, but the same reason that 26 he trusted me enough to take away and destroy those 27 documents in an appropriate manner. 28 29 Q. There was nothing wrong with tipping those documents; 30 that was appropriate, wasn't it? 31 A. Well, I was following instructions; that's the way he 32 wanted it done, that's the way we done it. 33 34 Q. You saw nothing inappropriate with tipping the 35 document, did you? 36 A. I saw nothing inappropriate in tipping the documents. 37 No. 38 39 Q. No. You see, I suggest to you that another matter 40 that you made up was when you said that he directed you to 41 burn the documents; that's just a fabrication as well, 42 isn't it? 43 A. No, it's not. 44 45 Q. All that Michael did, that is, Mr Ravbar, was he told 46 you to take the material away and you said you'd bury it; 47 isn't that what happened?


1 A. No, that's not what happened. 2 3 Q. He never said anything to you about expecting the 4 receipt, shortly, of a Notice to Produce, did he? 5 A. Yes, he did. 6 7 Q. He never said anything in front of you, or at all, 8 about a direction to the staff that they should not open 9 his emails? 10 A. Yes, he did. 11 12 Q. He never said anything to you about not wanting to be 13 in the position of having to photocopy documents for a 14 month? 15 A. Yes, he did. 16 17 Q. Does it strike you as passing strange that not one of 18 these terrible accusations you make about Mr Ravbar is 19 supported by even one witness? 20 A. No, I'm not surprised at all and the reason I'm not 21 surprised is because the staff are long-term staff members 22 of the CFMEU and are very supportive of their boss and 23 I don't begrudge them one bit what they've had to say and 24 I respect their positions that they have taken. 25 26 Q. You see, some of those staff were members of the BLF? 27 A. Absolutely. There's one thing people know that 28 Michael does take a hard line and does rule by fear. You 29 know, in Michael's time I believe he's gone through about 30 30 organisers in that time, so he has a high turnover 31 because of the way that he manages the business and that's 32 the way he does it. So, you know, people do have a concern 33 about their employment going forward and there's young 34 people there that are pregnant, they're about to have 35 babies, everything else, so, you know, they've still got to 36 put food on the table, and if you get offside with the 37 Union - and it was no different when I was a leader - if 38 you get offside with the Union you find it very difficult 39 to get employment thereafter, as I will after this. 40 41 Q. You cheated on the Union, though, didn't you? 42 A. Well, that's your view. 43 44 Q. What, you don't think that accepting $200,000 worth of 45 free work on your house is contrary to the ethics of being 46 a senior Union officer? 47 A. I had taken nothing from the Union in my time. In my


1 time with the Union all accounts and all audits, 2 everything, was all put through the Executive and endorsed, 3 so one thing that the BLF was very proud of is that we had 4 Executives every fortnight, not every now and then, we had 5 them every fortnight, and 70 per cent of that Executive was 6 rank and file and they oversaw the management of the Union. 7 And everybody knows you never got a fucking favour out of 8 me in my time at the BLF Union. 9 10 Q. Why do you think you got $200,000 worth of free work 11 on your house? 12 A. You say it's 200,000, I disagree with that. 13 14 Q. $190,000. I think that's a huge difference. 15 A. I disagree with that. 16 17 Q. Yes? 18 A. Do you want to deflect? You know, by all means, throw 19 as much mud as you like, but nothing's going to change the 20 fact of the line that Michael took on that day. 21 22 Q. Michael Ravbar brought charges against you? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. Those charges led, in effect, to your resignation from 26 the Union? 27 A. Those charges led to a report and that report had 28 nothing in it other than to say a censure motion against 29 me. I resigned from the Union for the betterment of the 30 Union because I could not work with a micro-management 31 person like Michael. 32 33 Q. You hold a grudge against him because you'd lost your 34 position of authority in the Union and you've determined, 35 as you told Mr Skourdoumbis, "If I'm going to go so is 36 Michael and I'll fucking burn the cunt", isn't that right? 37 A. That's exactly what I said at that time. 38 39 Q. And that's what you were trying to do in the witness 40 box this week? 41 A. No. 42 43 MR AGIUS: Thank you. 44 45 THE WITNESS: Anything else? 46 47 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Agius. Mr McCarthy?


1 2 MR McCARTHY: No questions, sir. 3 4 THE COMMISSIONER: Ms McNaughton? 5 6 MS McNAUGHTON: No, thank you. 7 8 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hanna can be excused? 9 10 MS McNAUGHTON: Could we ask that the same order be made 11 in relation to him? We will let his representatives know 12 when we finally determine that. 13 14 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. You can leave the witness box 15 now, Mr Hanna. You heard what Ms McNaughton said. 16 17 <THE WITNESS WITHDREW 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: Is it desired that Mr Skourdoumbis be 20 cross-examined? 21 22 MS McNAUGHTON: I am told that he is not required for 23 cross-examination. 24 25 THE COMMISSIONER: By anyone? 26 27 MS McNAUGHTON: By anyone. 28 29 MR AGIUS: I am sorry, I didn't hear that. 30 31 MS McNAUGHTON: Mr Skourdoumbis is not required. 32 33 MR AGIUS: No. 34 35 THE COMMISSIONER: That brings us to the testimonial end 36 of this Document Disposal Case Study. 37 38 MR AGIUS: Mr Commissioner, there is one matter and we 39 could raise it in correspondence, but there was the 40 Skourdoumbis report which has been referred to. It 41 contains some sensitive material about the person and the 42 family that was the recipient of the charity. 43 44 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I understand. 45 46 MR AGIUS: We have no interest in exposing personal 47 details. There are elements of the report which, in our


1 respectful submission, may be relevant in assessing such 2 matters of credit and that sort of thing. We would ask - 3 and I can perhaps discuss a form of this with my friend - 4 that that be received as an exhibit, even if only as a 5 confidential exhibit. 6 7 THE COMMISSIONER: If it is possible to cover up the truly 8 confidential parts, perhaps you could make a proposal, or 9 get Mr Pasfield to, and that could be considered. 10 11 MR AGIUS: Yes. 12 13 THE COMMISSIONER: You would like Ms McNaughton to tender 14 it? 15 16 MR AGIUS: Yes. 17 18 MS McNAUGHTON: We were planning on doing that in any 19 event. We will certainly be in communication as to how 20 that is appropriate, given the sensitivity of that issue. 21 22 THE COMMISSIONER: It sounds as if it is a subject on 23 which it will be possible to agree fairly easily. 24 25 MR AGIUS: Yes. 26 27 THE COMMISSIONER: 31 December is a date which weighs 28 heavily on me. I would like to direct a timetable for 29 written submissions in relation to this case study. Is now 30 the right time to do it or would some time early next week 31 be the time to do it? 32 33 MS McNAUGHTON: Could we ask for early next week just to 34 make some further inquiries? 35 36 THE COMMISSIONER: Just for the benefit of Mr Agius and 37 Mr McCarthy, what I would have in mind is something like 38 this, that Counsel Assisting serve their submissions a 39 fortnight from today, that affected persons, that is to say 40 Mr Hanna, on the one hand and Mr Ravbar, on the other, 41 would serve their submissions one week later and that one 42 week after that each of the affected persons serve their 43 submissions on matters arising out of the previous week's 44 submissions, if I can put it that way. 45 46 Could I just pause there to interpolate that what 47 Counsel Assisting says might stimulate certain submissions


1 from Mr Ravbar, on the one hand, and Mr Hanna, on the 2 other, but each of them might like to comment on each 3 other's submissions. 4 5 And then, if I can return to the narrative, one week 6 after what is really the third set of submissions, 7 Counsel Assisting file theirs in reply. 8 9 I know the timing is short but the timing is short on 10 everything. I just say all this now so that, for example, 11 I select Mr McCarthy as someone who is a tyro in these 12 hearings, although you won't know what Counsel Assisting is 13 going to say, you will have some idea about what Mr Hanna 14 would like to say and I suppose you and Mr Hanna have some 15 idea as to what the lines of criticism will be, at least so 16 far as Mr Agius is concerned. 17 18 Anyway, that's what I have in mind, but I accede to 19 Ms McNaughton's request that no directions be made now, but 20 that some correspondence may come along next week embodying 21 them, or something like them. Is there anything else we 22 can deal with now, usefully? 23 24 MS McNAUGHTON: Not in the time remaining. 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: No. In that case, we shall adjourn. 27 I adjourn these proceedings to a public hearing in Sydney 28 on Thursday, 1 October 2015. 29 30 AT 3.38PM THE COMMISSION WAS ADJOURNED TO THURSDAY, 31 1 OCTOBER 2015 IN SYDNEY 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47


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