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WHAT SELECTED SENIOR PASTORS OF CHURCH PLANTING CHURCHES IDENTIFY AS KEY COMMUNICATION FACTORS IN CASTING VISION FOR A NEW CHURCH PLANT ___________________ A Dissertation Presented to the Faculty of the Department of Doctor of Ministry Dallas Theological Seminary ___________________ In Partial Fulfillment of the Requirements for the Degree Doctor of Ministry ___________________ by Timothy G. Jacobs May 2011
Transcript

WHAT SELECTED SENIOR PASTORS OF CHURCH PLANTING CHURCHES

IDENTIFY AS KEY COMMUNICATION FACTORS IN CASTING VISION FOR A

NEW CHURCH PLANT

___________________

A Dissertation

Presented to

the Faculty of the Department of Doctor of Ministry

Dallas Theological Seminary

___________________

In Partial Fulfillment

of the Requirements for the Degree

Doctor of Ministry

___________________

by

Timothy G. Jacobs

May 2011

Accepted by the Faculty of the Dallas Theological Seminary in

partial fulfillment of the requirement for the degree Doctor of Ministry

Examining Committee

_________________________

_________________________

ABSTRACT

WHAT SELECTED SENIOR PASTORS IN CHURCH PLANTING CHURCHES IDENTIFY AS KEY COMMUNICATION FACTORS IN CASTING VISION FOR A

NEW CHURCH PLANT

Tim Jacobs

Readers: Dr. Scott Barfoot, Dr. Rick Taylor

While current research suggests that the church in the United States is in

decline, existing churches have a tremendous opportunity to direct their resources toward the planting of new churches. This can happen when senior pastors of existing churches become convinced that their church must reproduce and then subsequently cast a compelling vision for reproduction to their congregations.

Arriving at a definition of vision casting as “images that inspire action,” the project examined what key communication factors senior pastors identified as present in their vision casting for a new church. Readers discover not only the key communication factors that each senior pastor identified in casting a church planting vision, but also the issues that arose through the images that were created.

Using the case study method, two senior pastors were interviewed who led their existing churches to plant at least one successful church. An associate staff member was also interviewed. The pastors studied were Bob Roberts, Jr., Senior Pastor of NorthWood church in Keller, Texas, and Mark Hopper, Senior Pastor of Evangelical Free Church of Diamond Bar, in California. Both pastors arrived at church planting from very different angles, yet both were responsible for inspiring their churches to make significant sacrifices to plant at least one successful church.

The literature review necessary for an informed approach to this project included examining sources in the area of vision and vision communication, transformational leadership, missiology, and best practices concerning resources given to church plants in the United States.

iv

CONTENTS

ABBREVIATIONS ......................................................................................................... viii

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS............................................................................................... ix

Chapter

1. Introduction........................................................................................................1 Rationale for This Study Research Question and Hypotheses Personal and Practical Relevance Counterpoint Research Design Anticipated Results

Hypothesis 1 Hypothesis 2 Hypothesis 3

Preview of Remaining Chapters Conclusion

2. Previous Research and Literature Review .......................................................13 Introduction A Definition of Vision A Definition of Vision Casting Church Planting: Not an Easy Sell Hypothesis 1

Transformational Leadership Credibility and Authenticity Dying to Self

Hypothesis 2 The Kingdom of God as a Theological Rationale for Church Planting Kingdom of God Defined Distinction Between Apostolic Identity and Apostolic Action

Hypothesis 3 The Senior Pastor’s Identification with the Role of “Apostle” Apostolic Action: The Connection Between Apostolic Identity and Sacrificing Resources

How Churches are Investing in New Church Plants Conclusion

3. Procedure and Research Method .....................................................................49 Introduction Criteria for Selection Questionnaire for Senior Pastors

v

Hypothesis 1 Hypothesis 2 Hypothesis 3

Questionnaire for an Associate Staff Member Hypothesis 1 Hypothesis 2 Hypothesis 3

Case Study 1: Bob Roberts, Jr., NorthWood Church The Interviews

Interviews with Brian Hook Interview with Bob Roberts

Case Study 2: Mark Hopper, EV Free Church of Diamond Bar The Interviews

Interviews with Mark Hopper Interview with Mark Lee

Conclusion

4. Results..............................................................................................................62 Introduction

Summary of Results Hypothesis 1 Hypothesis 2 Hypothesis 3

Case Study 1: Bob Roberts, Jr., Northwood Community Church History of NorthWood Church Results: Three Images that Make the Difference

Hypothesis 1 Results of Hypothesis 1

The Importance of Stories and Symbols Hypothesis 2 Results of Hypothesis 2

Apostolic Identity Kingdom Mindset

Hypothesis 3 Results of Hypothesis 3

Apostolic Identity Restructuring the Entire Church to a Cell Group Model The Goal: Discipleship over Church Planting Hard Choices with Limited Resources A New Metric

Case Study 2: Mark Hopper, EV Free Church of Diamond Bar Hypothesis 1 Results of Hypothesis 1

The Spirit of God Working in the Heart of a Leader The Power of Stories

Wally Norling and the Roots of EV Free Diamond Bar

vi

David Price The Strawberry Patch Mark Lee and Tom Lanning

Hypothesis 2 Results of Hypothesis 2

The “Dark Side” of the Church Plant Possible Explanations of the “Dark Side Experience”

Mismatched DNA and Misunderstood Values Presenting a Complete Theological Framework

The Relationship Between the Kingdom of God and the Church The Relationship Between the Missio Dei and the Church The Relationship Between the Incarnation and the Church

Mark Hopper’s Apostolic Identity Concluding Thoughts on Hypothesis 2

Hypothesis 3 Results of Hypothesis 3

Emotional Cost Then Land Campaign Support Ad Infinitum The Line in the Sand that Got the People Engaged Paying it Forward Apostolic Action Concluding Thoughts on Hypothesis 3

5. Conclusions and Research Implications ........................................................115 Introduction Interpretation of Results and Conclusions

Hypothesis 1 Beyond Merely Giving Permission to a Trusted Leader The Relationship Between Brokenness and Vision Casting Ability Implications for Ministry

Hypothesis 2 Theological Reflection Prior to Church Planting Implications for Ministry

Evaluating Current Systems and Behaviors that Might Hinder Reproduction

Hypothesis 3 Implications for Ministry

Changing the Scorecard Sacrifice over the Long Haul

Limitations Conclusion

vii

Appendices

A. Transcription of Interview with Bob Roberts, Jr. ..........................................129

B. Transcription of Interview with Brian Hook .................................................144

C. Transcription of Interview with Mark Hopper...............................................160

D. Transcription of Interview with Mark Lee.....................................................183

BIBLIOGRAPHY............................................................................................................201

viii

ABBREVIATIONS NIV: New International Version KJV: King James Version ESV: English Standard Books of the Bible Old Testament

Genesis Gen Exodus Exod Leviticus Lev Numbers Num Deuteronomy Deut Joshua Josh Judges Judg Ruth Ruth 1 Samuel 1 Sam 2 Samuel 2 Sam 1 Kings 1 Kgs 2 Kings 2 Kgs 1 Chronicles 1 Chr 2 Chronicles 2 Chr Ezra Ezra Nehemiah Neh Esther Esth Job Job Psalms Ps (pl. Pss)

Proverbs Prov Ecclesiastes Eccl Song of Solomon Song Isaiah Isa Jeremiah Jer Lamentations Lam Ezekiel Ezek Daniel Dan Hosea Hos Joel Joel Amos Amos Obadiah Obad Jonah Jon Micah Mic Nahum Nah Habakkuk Hab Zephaniah Zeph Haggai Hag Zechariah Zech Malachi Mal

New Testament

Matthew Matt Mark Mark Luke Luke John John Acts Acts Romans Rom 1 Corinthians 1 Cor 2 Corinthians 2 Cor Galatians Gal Ephesians Eph Philippians Phil Colossians Col 1 Thessalonians 1 Thess 2 Thessalonians 2 Thess

1 Timothy 1 Tim 2 Timothy 2 Tim Titus Titus Philemon Phlm Hebrews Heb James Jas 1 Peter 1 Pet 2 Peter 2 Pet 1 John 1 John 2 John 2 John 3 John 3 John Jude Jude Revelation Rev

ix

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

No undertaking of this sort deserves to have only one name claiming responsibility for its

production. There were many who played a role in seeing it through to its completion. My highest gratitude is to the Lord Jesus Christ, who has transferred me into his kingdom from the domain of darkness. I also wish to express my deepest gratitude to the following

people:

My wife, Judi: You have been the greatest source of strength and support I could have asked for through the course of this project. This is as much your accomplishment as it is

mine.

My children, Ryan, Cambria, and Madison: Thank you for being patient with me during the many hours spent away from you in order to finish this project. No matter how hard it

gets, never back down from what God wants you to do.

My parents, Jeff and Cheryl: Your faithfulness and strength of character over the course of my life have left me with no other option but do my best to follow suit.

The elders, staff, and congregation of Compass Church: Thank you for your gracious

support over the years. My prayer is that we become a church that would bear much fruit.

My readers, Dr. Scott Barfoot and Dr. Rick Taylor: Your investment of time and wise counsel added tremendous value to this project.

Bob Roberts, Jr., Brian Hook, and NorthWood Community Church: Thank you for

planting churches that proclaim the kingdom, and for your vision to reach the world for Christ.

Mark Hopper: Your courage to risk it all for the sake of a new church is an inspiring story

that needs to be told.

Mark Lee: Your obedience to God’s call has produced a church that is changing its community in the name of Jesus.

1

CHAPTER 1

INTRODUCTION

On July 22, 2010, a retired pastor in his eighties paid a visit to a Doctor of

Ministry cohort that was in session at Dallas Theological Seminary. He spoke briefly

about his experience as a church planter.1 The church he planted in the Dallas/Ft. Worth

area grew to be one of the more influential in the region, running multiple thousands in

attendance each week. While the church was planted in the 1970’s, by the year 2000 it

had been involved in planting over ten additional churches.2 However, in the years that

followed his tenure it ceased to plant any other new churches. When asked what might

shake the church out of its lethargic attitude and rekindle the vision of church planting,

his answer was simple and straightforward: it was entirely up to the vision of the senior

pastor.3

Rationale for This Study

This example highlights the reason for this project. In the United States,

research suggests that while there are some bright spots for church planting, church

attendance is not keeping pace with population growth in America.4 In fact, as David

1 Field Notes, Dallas, Texas, (July 29, 2010).

2 Enoch Yuttasak Sirikul, Power Point Presentation, Dallas Theological Seminary, July 29, 2010, Dallas, Texas.

3 Field Notes, Dallas, Texas, (July 29, 2010).

4 Ed Stetzer and Warren Bird, Viral Churches: Helping Church Planters Become Movement Makers (San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass, 2010), Kindle Electronic Edition: Chapter 1, Location 231; David T. Olson, The American Church in Crisis: Groundbreaking Research Based on a National Database of Over 200,000 Churches (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2008), Kindle Electronic Edition: Introduction, Location 252.

2

Olson writes, “If trends continue, by 2050 the percentage of Americans attending church

will be half the 1990 figure.”5 Aubrey Malphurs suggests, “One of the reasons so many

American churches are struggling today is because pastors are not exercising strong

leadership.”6

This project attempts to address this problem by beginning with several

assumptions: First, God will continue to proclaim his kingdom to the world through the

vehicle of the church. The church has been and will continue to be God’s primary tool for

proclaiming his kingdom to the world with the ultimate purpose being to “reconcile to

himself all things” (Col 1:20).7 After Peter had identified Jesus as the Son of God, Jesus

said to him and the rest of the disciples, “…I will build my church, and the gates of hell

shall not prevail against it” (Matt 16:18). Because the church is the body of Christ with

Christ as its head, it is justifiable to agree with Hybels when he writes, “the local church

is the hope of the world” (Col 1:18).8 Thus, we should expect God to be involved in

church planting.9

Second, it is assumed that God will continue to call and work though leaders

as catalysts to accomplish his agenda. Prior to the church age, God brought leaders for

the Israelites such as Moses, Joshua, Gideon, David, and Solomon who served God’s

chosen people during critical points of their history. He also provided prophets such as

5 Stetzer and Bird, Viral Churches, Chapter 1, Location 231; Olson, The American Church in Crisis, Introduction, Location 252.

6 Aubrey Malphurs, Planting Growing Churches for the 21st Century (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998), 136.

7 English Standard Version. All other Scripture references will use the English Standard Version unless otherwise noted.

8 Bill Hybels, Courageous Leadership (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2002), 15.

9 Tim Keller, “Why Plant Churches,” February 2002, http://dowload.redeemer.com/pdf/learn/resources/Why_Plant_Churches-Keller.pdf (accessed September 13, 2010), 1.

3

Samuel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Daniel, who brought revelation to the people during their

wandering, confusion, and exile. Much of Old Testament history involves God guiding

his people through the courageous actions and prophetic words of those he had set aside

to lead. In fact, Proverbs 29:18 identifies a dire outcome for those to whom no voice is

heard: “Where there is no prophetic vision, the people cast off restraint” (Prov 29:18).

The prophet Joel writes, “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my

Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream

dreams, and your young men shall see visions” (Joel 2:28). God has been and will

continue to be active in revealing his plans through people who in turn proclaim the

message to others.

In the New Testament, God again appears to work in and through leaders to

build his church. Peter is one example of this. Malphurs states that “Peter’s name appears

in the book of Acts no less than fifty-seven times in chapters 1-5, 8-12, and 15, while the

other apostles are mentioned only twenty-five times.”10 When God wanted the gospel to

expand beyond the Jews, it was Peter to whom he gave the vision of unclean animals in

Acts 10. That revelation was a defining moment in convincing the Jerusalem church that

salvation was available to the Gentiles as well. Thus, the church received yet another

compelling reason to embrace the entirety of the Great Commission.11

As the church progressed, Paul became the central figure for the expansion of

the Gospel to “the ends of the earth” through his missionary church planting endeavors

(Acts 1:8; 13:1-3).12 Even so, Paul was very concerned for the condition of those who

10 Malphurs, Planting Growing Churches for the 21st Century, 140.

11 Richard N. Longenecker, The Acts of the Apostles, vol. 9 in The Expositor's Bible Commentary, ed. Frank E. Gaebelein (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1981), 397; Acts 1:8; 11:18.

12 Ibid., 415.

4

would lead the churches he had established. Strict guidelines, therefore, can be found in

Scripture for those who would be overseers (1 Tim 3:1-7; Tit 1:5-9).

Research Question and Hypotheses

Olson’s assessment of the “silent decay” of the church in the United States

should cause us to look for leaders called by God who are actually involved in bringing

new churches to life.13 Therefore, in light of the discussion above, the research question

for this project is: What do selected senior pastors in church planting churches identify as

key factors in casting vision for a new church plant?

The hypotheses for this research are as follows:

1. Selected senior pastors of church planting churches will identify the

communication of strong personal conviction as a key factor in casting vision for

a new church plant.

2. Selected senior pastors of church planting churches will identify the

communication of theological rationale as a key factor in casting vision for a new

church plant.

3. Selected senior pastors of church planting churches will identify the

communication of willingness to sacrifice resources as a key factor in casting

vision for a new church plant.

Personal and Practical Relevance

This question has personal and practical relevance as I serve in the capacity of

Lead Pastor of Compass Church in Goodyear, AZ, a suburb of the Phoenix Metropolitan

area. According to the Association of Religious Data Archives, in 2000 there were 1.8

13 David T. Olson, The American Church in Crisis: Groundbreaking Research Based on a National Database of Over 200,000 Churches (Grand Rapids, MI: Zonderan, 2008), Kindle Electronic Edition: chapter 3, Location 797.

5

million people who categorized themselves as “unclaimed” in terms of religious

affiliation.14 This number could very well be reduced if pastors in the area might attempt

to plant new churches out of their existing ones.

According to David Olson:

In Arizona, for example, church attendance grew 7.3 percent from 2000 to 2005, robust growth by any standard. However, the population grew by 15.3 percent during that same period, producing a net attendance percentage decline of 7 percent. Typically, the faster a region’s rate of population growth, the more difficult task the church faces in keeping up with those increasing numbers.15

This project is born out of a deep conviction that the healthiest churches will

grow and multiply, and that there is no single greater need spiritually in the United States

than for healthy, culturally relevant, biblically centered churches to grow and multiply.

At the center of this endeavor is God working through the heart of the senior pastor, and

the pastor in turn leading the congregation to embrace the vision of church planting.

Without effective leadership this will not happen. Therefore, factors that make up

effective vision communication on the part of the Senior Pastor for new church plants are

a critical part of the whole process.

Counterpoint

It might be possible for one to question the relevance of casting a vision for

church planting to an entire congregation, as if that is a necessary step before church

reproduction can take place. For example, Larry Osborne draws a distinction between

what he calls buy-in and permission when it comes to introducing a new initiative to the

14 “County Membership Report, Maricopa County, Arizona,” www.thearda.com/mapsReports/reports/counties/04013_2000.asp (accessed September 13, 2010).

15 Olson, The American Church in Crisis, Chapter 1, Location 627-34.

6

church.16 He describes buy-in as “having the support of most, if not all, of the key

stakeholders (and virtually all of the congregation). It takes a ton of time to get. It’s

incredibly elusive.”17

Instead, Osborne argues for permission, which “simply means, ‘I’ll let you try

it,’ as opposed to buy-in, which means, ‘I’ll let you play.’”18 This way, if the initiative

fails, the leadership is somewhat protected because they did not lobby for complete

acceptance of the idea only to then let all the stakeholders down in its demise. Thus, the

damage is minimal in terms of the credibility of the leadership.

This is an extremely wise insight when it comes to leading change in a

church. While Osborne was not citing the implementation of a church planting strategy

per se, the principle itself is powerful enough to call into question the need to have

everyone “on board” before something different can be tried.

This caveat taken into consideration, the focus of this research does not

involve the implementation of a new program or the creation of a new type of ministry;

rather, it is concerned with the implementation of a practice that has been in motion since

New Testament times: the planting of new churches. That is why the focus is not on

church planters who start from scratch, but in senior pastors of church planting churches.

Stetzer and Bird report that church planting networks, as an example, “are birthed out of

the heart of the lead pastor, but the vision has been adopted by the entire congregation.

Typically, the lead pastor is a strong personality who uses the pulpit to frame the

direction for the networks.”19

16 Larry Osborne, Sticky Teams: Keeping Your Leadership Team and Staff on the Same Page (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2010), 77.

17 Ibid., 78.

18 Ibid.

19 Stetzer and Bird, Viral Churches, Chapter 5, Location 1355.

7

Thus, church planting is seen as something that the whole congregation should

engage in at some level, not merely as a tactic, but as a lifestyle. Tim Keller, founding

Pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York City writes:

The vigorous, continual planting of new congregations in the single most crucial strategy for 1) the numerical growth of the body of Christ in any city, and 2) the continual corporate renewal and revival of the existing churches in a city…However, there is no better way to teach older congregations about new skills and methods for reaching new people groups than by planting new churches...Strange as it may seem, the planting of new churches in a city is one of the very best ways to revitalize older churches in the vicinity and renew the whole Body of Christ.20

Because church planting is not simply a program that has the luxury of

survival or failure without much consequence, senior pastors must know how to skillfully

and effectively cast vision for its implementation in their churches. That is the

fundamental basis for this research. However, conclusions of any merit cannot be drawn

on such a subject without an effective research design.

Research Design

The research method of this project is case studies. The case study method

allows for an in-depth, multi-dimensional look at the problem to be researched.

According to Yin, “case studies are the preferred strategy when ‘how’ or ‘why’ questions

are being posed, when the investigator has little control over event, and when the focus is

on a contemporary phenomenon within some real-life context.”21 The nature of this

research goes beyond simply quantitative data, as the senior pastor’s leadership approach,

core beliefs and values, and past actions were all pertinent to ascertaining clear answers

to the above hypotheses.

20 Keller, “Why Plant Churches,” 1, 4.

21 Robert Yin, Case Study Research: Design and Methods (Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Publications, 2003), 1.

8

Research for this project was gathered several ways. First, information on

each church’s history, size, doctrine, values, and organizational structure was gathered

from the website and interactions with various staff members. Each senior pastor was

interviewed with an identical questionnaire that was developed along the lines of the

hypotheses.22

This research focused on three senior pastors in three separate churches, with

one of the pastors operating as a “test case.” Each leads a church different from the others

in terms of size, location, and approach to church planting. The senior pastors surveyed

included the following:

1. Bob Roberts, Jr., Founding Pastor of NorthWood Church in Keller, Texas.

Roberts was included in this research because of the many churches that have

been planted out of NorthWood over the years. As a well-known church planting

author and practitioner, Roberts has been cast as a model for other pastors to

follow who desire to plant churches out of their church.23 NorthWood has

approximately 2500 people in attendance, and celebrated its 25th anniversary on

September 12, 2010.

2. Mark Hopper, Senior Pastor of Evangelical Free Church of Diamond Bar in

southern California. Hopper was asked to participate in this research because EV

Free Diamond Bar is a church comparable in size to Compass Church and

recently planted its first church, VantagePoint Church. This new church is about

three years old and currently has around 600 in attendance on a Sunday morning.

22 Yin, Case Study Research, 47. The rationale for “replication” in this case is the “theoretical framework” developed in the hypotheses and supported by the previous research and literature review found in chapter 2 of this project.

23 Bill Easum and Dave Travis, Beyond the Box: Innovative Churches that Work (Loveland, CO: Group Publishing, 2003), 107-109; Stetzer and Bird, Viral Churches, Chapter 12, Location 2611-2637.

9

3. Tom Garasha, Founding Pastor of Shiloh Community Church in Phoenix,

Arizona.24 Over the 25 years that Tom served as pastor of Shiloh, four churches

were planted. When Garasha finally left the church in 2007, it had grown to over

1200 people. This case will serve as the field test and will not be included in the

case study material. However, it will function as a “pilot case” to help determine

the quality of the research instrument that has been developed.25

Cases involving churches of different sizes, denominations, structure, and

location were important to determine whether the theoretical data would be supported by

the data that was gathered. The ability to travel on site to each location and conduct

interviews in person was helpful to gather data on the particular context surrounding each

interviewee.26

Anticipated Results

It is expected that the case studies will reveal that selected senior pastors are

aware of the role that casting vision has played in the success of starting new churches

from their existing church. They will see vision not only as a statement on a wall, or even

a sermon on Sunday morning, but a lifestyle that must be lived consistently in view of the

people they are leading.

Because church planting is unfortunately not a normative practice for most

churches in North America, the selected senior pastors will have reported that all three

hypotheses stated below were essential in leading their respective churches to a place

where church planting is not only a known practice, but celebrated by the congregation.

24 “In general, convenience, access, and geographic proximity can be the main criteria for selecting the pilot case or cases.” Yin, Case Study Research, 79.

25 Ibid., 57.

26 Ibid., 92.

10

These leaders will see their church planting vision not as part of a program but a mission

that flows directly out of their own respective encounters with God at critical moments in

their lives.

Hypothesis 1: Selected Senior Pastors in Church Planting Churches will Identify the Communication of Strong Personal Conviction as a Key Factor in Casting Vision

for a New Church Plant.

The expectation is to find that the first hypothesis is true. The senior pastors

surveyed will report that church planting is more than just a department that has been

outsourced, but the manifestation of a deeply held conviction. This conviction will have

come about through a variety of ways. Bob Roberts writes, “Pastors who raise up other

pastors and plant churches out of their church are generally pastors who have been

broken. This brokenness generally results from a failure to achieve their own dreams as

opposed to God’s.”27 This life experience will be likely one of the reinforcements that

will have solidified their conviction that church planting is the right course of action.

Thus, it becomes part of the core of their being. They would report, then, that

communicating a core passion for church planting would be a key factor in their efforts to

successfully cast vision for church planting.

Hypothesis 2: Selected Senior Pastors of Church Planting Churches will Identify the Communication of Theological Rationale as a Key Factor in Casting Vision for a

New Church Plant.

The expectation is to find that the above hypothesis is true. Senior pastors who

have successfully planted churches will do so because they find the mandate for church

planting in the very Word of God. They will have not only studied the theological reasons

for church planting but will have communicated them to their respective congregations.

27 Bob Roberts, Jr. The Multiplying Church: The New Math for Starting New Churches (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2008), Kindle Electronic Edition: Chapter 2, Location 1516-23.

11

As we determine the nature of this theological rationale, we will discover that the

kingdom of God is a dominant theme. The results of the congregation’s ability to

understand the various theological themes presented to them lies outside the realm of this

study. However, we anticipate that the senior pastors in this research will have

intentionally communicated these theological themes as part of casting vision for a new

church plant. We would expect this communication to come in the form of sermons,

seminars, blogs, and other forms of verbal and written communication.

Hypothesis 3: Selected Senior Pastors in Church Planting Churches will Identify the Communication of Willingness to Sacrifice Resources as a Key Factor in Casting

Vision for a New Church Plant.

The expectation is to find that the above hypothesis is true. The senior pastors

surveyed will report that they are willing to invest significant amounts of resources into

church planting and they will have communicated this to their congregations. They will

be driven by an “apostolic” mindset, possessing a vision to church an entire region rather

than overseeing a single church. Because they are aware of the significant costs involved

to successfully launch churches, and because of the fact that more is being required of

local churches to give generously to help new church plants get off the ground, they will

list this as an important factor in casting vision to their congregations.

Preview of Remaining Chapters

Chapter 2 is the Previous Research and Literature Review. This chapter will

provide a review of the literature pertinent to this research and will be organized around

the three hypotheses stated above. We will define the terms vision and vision casting for

the purpose of this project.

Chapter 3 is entitled Procedure and Research Method. A defense will be made

of the method used to conduct this research. There will also be a description of how and

12

when the research was collected, including details about interviews conducted and other

data that was gathered.

Chapter 4, entitled Results, discusses the research findings and will determine

the answer to the research question as it relates to the stated hypotheses. The data

gathered and discussed in chapter 3, as well as the previous research and literature review

presented in chapter 2, will be integrated with the hypotheses to provide insights that get

to the heart of the research question.

Chapter 5 is entitled Conclusions and Implications for Further Study. This

section will provide a discussion of conclusions drawn from this study, again focusing on

the stated hypotheses. Implications that surface from this research will be discussed, as

well as further questions raised as a result. Perhaps the questions that arise from this

research which are beyond scope of this particular project can be a springboard to even

more beneficial study in the future.

13

CHAPTER 2

PREVIOUS RESEARCH AND LITERATURE REVIEW

Introduction

Church growth alone will not sustain the spread of the Gospel through the

twenty-first century. Since Donald MacGavran’s Understanding Church Growth was

published in 1970, and especially in the last several decades, there has been a tidal wave

of resources available to help churches achieve measurable growth. However, even with

the many resources that have emerged to help pastors and churches, it became clear that

with the dawn of the new millennium came a net reduction in church attendance in the

United States.1 While this isn’t particularly good news for the church, one encouraging

sign has emerged: New research suggests that the number of churches in the United

States is actually on the rise. In fact, there has recently been a “baby boom” of new

churches whose numbers are outpacing their dying counterparts.2 In fact, while there are

now about 3,500 church closures each year in the United States, there are also about

4,000 new churches that are opening.3 Church planting may be the mechanism that is

turning the tide.

Years ago C. Peter Wagner clarified the importance of church planting in his

now famous quote: “the single most effective evangelistic method under heaven is

1 David T. Olson, The American Church in Crisis: Groundbreaking Research Based on a National Database of Over 200,000 Churches (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2008), Kindle Electronic Edition: Chapter 2, Location 613-624.

2 Ed Stetzer and Warren Bird, Viral Churches: Helping Church Planters Become Movement Makers (San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass, 2010), Kindle Electronic Edition: Chapter 2, Location 472-79.

3 Ibid., Chapter 1, Location 234-42.

14

planting new churches.”4 Now, however, the emphasis is moving beyond merely church

planting and into the area of church multiplication. It is not enough to simply plant a

church – the challenge now is to plant a church-planting church.5

Any successful church-planting-church effort will undoubtedly require

effective pastoral leadership.6 John Maxwell is famous for his statement that, “everything

rises and falls on leadership.”7 Entire congregations, many of which are relatively

unfamiliar with church planting, will need to be led from total unawareness to passionate

engagement.

In a study conducted by Leadership Network, researchers found a “direct

correlation between the senior pastor’s commitment to church planting and the church’s

ability to plant successfully.”8 One of the purposes of this research is to study the

dynamics of that commitment and how it is communicated.

An essential element of effective pastoral leadership is the casting of vision.

Vision arises from a burden that the leader carries to see a different outcome than what

otherwise would be. When it is done effectively, vision casting can inspire people to

think and behave radically different than they have in the past.

4 C. Peter Wagner, Church Planting for a Greater Harvest (Ventura, CA: Regal Books, 1990), 11.

5 Bob Roberts, The Multiplying Church: The New Math for Starting New Churches Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2008), Kindle Electronic Edition: Chapter 2, Location 764-69.

6 Robert E. Logan, Be Fruitful and Multiply (St. Charles, IL: Church Smart Resources, 2006), 38.

7 John Maxwell, The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 2007), 293.

8 Ed Stetzer and Dave Travis, “Who Starts New Churches?,” Leadership Network, 2007, www.leadnet.org/papers (accessed August 9, 2010), 6.

15

A Definition of Vision: “A Clear Picture of God’s Plans for the Future, Based on What He has Promised in the Past.”

The purpose of this research is to study key communication factors that senior

pastors would identify in casting vision for a new church plant. In order to do this, we

must make a distinction between vision and vision casting. It is critical to look at the

literature as it relates to the understanding of the concept of vision in an environment of

spiritual leadership.

Much has been written on the subject of vision over the years. So much so that

one writer suggested in a popular pastoral leadership publication as far back as 1994 that,

“the subject of vision can become as dry as Ezekiel’s old bones.”9 Mancini suggests,

however, that vision must be “redeemed,” and what it means to be a visionary must be

discovered anew.10

In his seminal book on church planting, Aubrey Malphurs offers this

definition of vision: “a clear, challenging picture of the future of your ministry as it can

and must be.”11 Barna defines it this way: “Vision for ministry is a clear, mental image of

a preferable future imparted by God to His chosen servants and is based upon an accurate

understanding of God, self and circumstances.”12

While these definitions have represented the “industry standard” for years,

they have not been without criticism. Mancini is critical of vision being defined merely as

9 David Goetz, “Barrio Dream Weaver,” Leadership Journal (Summer 1994): 36.

10 Will Mancini, Church Unique (San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass, 2008). Kindle Electronic Edition: Introduction, Location 229-32.

11 Aubrey Malphurs, Planting Growing Churches for the 21st Century (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998), 264.

12 George Barna, The Power of Vision (Ventura, CA: Regal Books, 1992), 5. An example of this is Rick Warren’s written vision statement that he was able to powerfully utilize in the sermon he preached on the opening Sunday of Saddleback Church in 1980. It can be found at: Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Church: Growth Without Compromising Your Message & Mission (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1995), 43.

16

a written document that becomes either a “compelling page dump” or a “lofty one

liner.”13 His concern is that this common expression of vision is incomplete. Instead, he

defines it this way: “Vision Proper is the living language that anticipates and illustrates

God’s better immediate future.”14

Roxburgh and Romanuk write in The Missional Leader that in these changing

times leaders cannot expect that having “the right vision and enough energy” will inspire

people to follow.15 They argue that vision as an idea in the leader’s mind followed by

subsequent plans and programs that flow out of that vision is not effective in this time of

“discontinuous change.”16 Because of this scenario, the authors believe that leaders are

able to provide neither a definition nor a determination of the future.17 Rather, vision is

substituted by “missional imagination” where the leader seeks to build trust through

authenticity, and then addresses the spiritual needs of the particular community to be

reached.18

This idea is similar to the discussion of vision found in Henry and Richard

Blackaby’s Spiritual Leadership. The authors of both books warn against vision that is

merely the desire to implement programs and ministries into a church without careful

13 Mancini, Church Unique, Chapter 16, Location 2079-83, 2089-94.

14 Ibid., Location 2108-11.

15 Alan J. Roxburgh and Fred Romanuk, The Missional Leader: Equipping Your Church for a Changing World (San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass, 2006), 145.

16 Ibid., 6. The authors contrast “discontinuous change” from “continuous change” this way: continuous change “develops out of what has gone before and therefore can be expected, anticipated and managed.” Discontinuous change refers to periods in history that “transform a culture forever, tipping it over into something new.”

17 Ibid., 145. It should be noted that the authors do not provide an alternative definition to vision per se, but rather challenge the effectiveness of its modernist understanding. Still, their concern holds merit and is taken into consideration in forming a definition of vision for this project.

18 Ibid., 131, 139, 143-147.

17

discernment of God’s desires within a particular ministry context.19 However, while

Roxburgh and Romanuk appear skeptical of a leader’s ability to clearly determine God’s

desires for the future, Blackaby and Blackaby would argue that as a leader walks closely

with God, that leader is able to be “keenly aware of his revelation.”20

When arriving at a definition of vision for the purposes of this project, the

material in Spiritual Leadership is informative because of its careful distinction between

secular and spiritual leadership. For example, the authors prefer the word revelation to

vision when defining what the spiritual leader in particular needs in order to move people

forward.21 The King James Version translates Proverbs 29:18 as follows: “Where there is

no vision, the people perish” (Prov 29:18 KJV). The authors, however, argue that the

New International Version offers a superior translation: “Where there is no revelation, the

people cast off restraint” (Prov 29:18 NIV). The key distinction, again, is in the usage of

the word revelation as opposed to vision. Suggesting that a conventional understanding of

vision for the spiritual leader is too often rooted in secular concepts and understanding,

the authors note, “God does not ask his followers to operate by vision. God’s people live

by revelation…Vision is something people produce; revelation is something people

receive.”22

Specifying the term by aligning it more closely with revelation, Henry and

Richard Blackaby define vision as “what God has revealed and promised about the

19 Henry T. Blackaby and Richard Blackaby, Spiritual Leadership (Nashville, TN: Broadman and Holman Publishers, 2001), 66; Roxburgh and Romanuk, The Missional Leader, 145.

20 Roxburgh and Romanuk, The Missional Leader, 145; Blackaby and Blackaby, Spiritual Leadership, 71.

21 Blackaby and Blackaby, Spiritual Leadership, 69. It should be noted that the authors retain the word “vision” throughout the remainder of the book, albeit with this caveat relating to the origination of vision as being from God for the Christian leader.

22 Ibid., 69.

18

future.”23 This seems to capture the unique task of the Christian leader seeking to lead

people into the will of God, distinguishing it from other secular organizations that might

look elsewhere for wisdom and inspiration. Gary McIntosh calls the work of discerning

vision as “pathfinding,” and describes it as the “central responsibility of leadership.”24

Rather than being just a bright idea, McIntosh argues that pathfinding starts with being

“on the path that the Chief Shepherd has revealed.”25

The Concept of Vision in Scripture

The word “revelation” can be problematic, however, because one could make

the assumption that the divine communication received might be held in the same regard

as Scripture. Yet the canon is closed, and the book of Revelation offers a strict warning to

any who would attempt to “add” or “take away” from God’s revealed word (Rev 22:18-

19).26

However, the material above appears to be consistent with Scripture. For

example, the Hebrew word “חןוז” in Proverbs 29:18 means “divine communication in a

vision, oracle, or prophecy.”27 This same word is found in other Old Testament passages,

such as 1 Samuel 3:1; 1 Chronicles 17:15; Habakkuk 2:2,3; Ezekiel 7:13.28 The word

means more than simply a perception of an idea. In fact, in each one of these cases the

vision was brought about by supernatural revelation from God.

23 Blackaby and Blackaby, Spiritual Leadership, 69.

24 Gary L. McIntosh, Biblical Church Growth: How You Can Work with God to Build a Faithful Church (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2003), 102.

25 Ibid.

26 Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1994), 64-65.

27 Francis Brown, S. R. Driver, and Charles Briggs, The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 2000), 303.

28 Ibid.

19

A survey of the word vision as used in the New Testament again links the

concept to divine communication from God. Hellenistic thought placed a high value on

seeing. In the Greek world, the ability to see was linked to intellectual perception. In fact,

Greek religion itself has been called “religion of vision,” and was in this context that the

New Testament and the Septuagint were written. 29 While there are a diverse number of

Greek words that are translated vision or seeing in the New Testament and the

Septuagint, many of them come from variations of the words “‘οραω” and “ειδον.” 30

Both words carry the definition of perception, especially in a spiritual sense.31

The definition of vision we are concerned with is that which relates to

leadership and direction. Therefore, while both Greek terms above might carry a broad

range of meaning, such as physically seeing something miraculous (e.g., a theophany),

the concept of vision as presented in Scripture can be narrowed to the idea of receiving by

divine counsel that which is right about a certain situation. The Theological Dictionary

of the New Testament draws the distinction this way:

Paul, though capable of ecstatic experiences, does not seem to have had visions after the manner of [the book of Revelation]. If to clear up detailed eschatological questions he appeals to special revelations, his reference is to the words of the exalted Lord (1 Th. 4:15) or to disclosed µυστήρια (1 C. 15:51). That is to say, he always has in view revelation by word, which can include theological intuition.32

29 Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich, ed., Theological Dictionary of the New Testament,

trans. Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Vol. 5 (repr. Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1999), 319.

30 Ibid., 342.

31 Ibid., 325. In the Septuagint, “‘οραω and ειδον are often used for spiritual perception.”

32 Ibid., 352.

20

Arriving at the Definition of Vision

The definition of vision for this project is one that integrates the material

presented above. It takes into account both the revelatory and prophetic nature of

perceiving what are God’s desires for the future. It also includes the understanding that

God’s intentions for the future will not deviate from the word he has revealed to his

people throughout history. Therefore, for the purposes of this project vision will be

defined as “a clear picture of God’s plans for the future, based on an understanding of

what he has promised in the past.”

A Definition of Vision Casting: Images that Inspire Action

Arriving at a definition of vision is just the beginning. What this project is

really concerned with is not vision itself, but the casting of vision. Once God’s plans for

the future have been seen with some form of clarity, these plans must now be

communicated in a compelling way to so as to involve and inspire others to follow. But

how is this done? A study of factors that contribute to how a vision is successfully cast,

specifically in the realm of church planting, will occupy the pages that follow.

For the sake of clarity, the literature will reveal that vision casting can be

defined as images that inspire action. By using the term “images” we leave room for not

only words on a page but demonstrable actions by the leader that embody the vision.

Mancini writes, “The vision cannot be separated from the vision caster, and the vision

caster cannot separate his message from his life as a model.”33

This project will suggest that vision casting for a new church plant involves

more than a statement but a lifestyle that is coherent theologically and practically. The

senior pastor will not just present a statement but a radically focused and cogent package

that brings credibility. Again, this research is focused only on senior pastors who desire

33 Mancini, Church Unique, Chapter 16, Location 2115-19.

21

to plant new churches out of their existing churches. While there are many church plants

that “start from scratch,” the interest of this paper is to look at the uniqueness of church

plants that come from already established churches.

Church Planting: Not an Easy Sell

The topic of vision casting has been selected because it is a bridge between

theory and practice. Senior pastors can read books, attend conferences, and concoct plans

ad infinitum, but the real test is whether they can engage their congregations into action.34

This challenge is multiplied when one considers that church planting in the

United States is still a rather fuzzy concept to even the most committed church attendees.

“How did Christianity,” writes Stetzer, “change from a faith spread primarily through

church planting to a faith where church planting is rare, sometimes even controversial?”35

Furthermore, there is the dimension that Chip and Dan Heath refer to as the

“Curse of Knowledge.”36 This refers to the breakdown in communication that occurs

when one party who possesses a firm grasp of an idea attempts to teach or persuade

another party of that same idea. The command of that particular piece of knowledge can

be a detriment to the one in the teaching role, as it is easy to forget that the other party

lacks any context or background on the subject. When senior pastors attempt to lead their

congregations into placing a significant investment of time and money into church-

planting-church effort, it will likely be unfamiliar territory for those who are asked to

34 “…the effectiveness of leaders must be judged not by their press clippings but by actual social change.” James MacGregor Burns, Leadership (New York: Harper and Row, 1978), 3.

35 Ed Stetzer, Planting Missional Churches (Nashville, TN: Broadman and Holman Publishers, 2006), 6.

36 Chip Heath and Dan Heath, Made to Stick (New York: Random House, 2007), 20.

22

make those investments. The danger lies not in the vision itself, but in the communication

of the vision.37

If senior pastors are able to close the gap between a church-planting-church

vision and a congregation capable of accomplishing that vision, then several key factors

in that vision casting will be present. The following is an analysis of the relevant

literature pertaining to the hypotheses of this project.

Hypothesis 1

There is an old joke that says the difference between ham and eggs is that the

chicken is involved, but the pig is committed. In churches that are planting churches, we

would expect to find a senior pastor who is more like the pig. While there may be a

separate church planting pastor on staff, the vision for church planting is not outsourced

to an associate staff member or committee. It is fully owned by the senior pastor.38

The first hypothesis is as follows: Selected Senior Pastors in Church Planting

Churches will Identify the Communication of Strong Personal Conviction as a Key

Factor in Casting Vision for a New Church Plant. The reason for the phrase “strong

personal conviction” in this first hypothesis is that the vision of church planting cast to

the congregation must be found deep in the heart of the senior pastor. This is not to say

the vision finds its origination in the senior pastor. Rather, the senior pastor must

communicate belief in the vision that God has given, as his role is to be the “vanguard for

[the] people in understanding God’s revelation.”39 Henry and Richard Blackaby argue

37 Phil Stevenson, The Ripple Church: Multiply Your Ministry by Planting New Churches (Indianapolis, IN: Wesleyan Publishing House, 2004), 99.

38 Bill Easum and Dave Travis, Beyond the Box: Innovative Churches that Work (Loveland, CO: Group Publishing, 2003), 106. This point was further confirmed in a personal interview with Brian Hook, Pastor of Church Planting at Northwood Church in Keller, Texas on July 22, 2010. Dallas, Texas.

39 Blackaby and Blackaby, Spiritual Leadership, 71.

23

that even when it comes to casting vision, it must be noted that the Holy Spirit is the one

who changes hearts and minds, not merely the conviction of the leader. However, the

leader is the communicator of the vision, and he “cannot grow weary of bearing witness

to God’s activity.”40

Bennis calls a guiding vision “the first basic ingredient of leadership” which

must “persist in the face of setbacks, even failures.” 41 The literature relevant to this study

confirms the need for extraordinary faith and commitment in the heart of the leader to

effect church multiplication.42

This stands in contrast to those who might be tempted to experiment with

church planting simply because it has proven to be a workable strategy. This type of

vision is not really vision at all, but it comes from what Will Mancini calls a “vision

vacuum” that is interested in whatever works at that time.43 He is concerned about a

“massive cloning and a glut of photocopied vision” on the part of leaders who mean well

but have not taken the time to think through what they really believe or the opportunities

that lay before them in their unique context.44 Also using the analogy of a “vacuum,”

Griffith and Easum warn church planters that it is easy to have a “love affair” with their

own idea of vision, but be blind to the mission field to which they have been sent.45

40 Blackaby and Blackaby, Spiritual Leadership, 83.

41 Warren Bennis, On Becoming a Leader (Reading, MA: Perseus Books, 1994), 39.

42 Steve Addison, Movements that Change the World (Smyrna, DE: Missional Press, 2009), Kindle Electronic Edition: Chapter 1, Location 184-195.

43 Will Mancini, Church Unique, Introduction, Location 182-86.

44 Ibid., Introduction, Location 186-88. See also Blackaby and Blackaby, Spiritual Leadership, 58.

45 Bill Easum and Jim Griffith, Ten Most Common Mistakes Made by Church Starts (St. Louis, MO: Chalice Press, 2008), Kindle Electronic Edition: Chapter 3, Location 207.

24

Comparing reproducing churches to non-reproducing ones, Vajko writes:

“Pastors of reproducing churches seem to look at their region and envision new churches

being born all around.”46 He identified fourteen qualities of reproducing churches in his

study. The first one was “a vision for reproduction.”47 He also identified that the “lack of

vision” became the reason for not planting on the part of many churches.48

According to Garrison, blurred vision is the “first deadly sin” that hinders a

church planting movement.49 The antidote is found in the leader who must “taste” it

before it becomes reality.50 This responsibility is uniquely given to the senior pastor.

Stetzer writes:

The planter initiates a daughter church by casting a church-planting vision. This vision must come from the pulpit, from the heart and words of the pastor. It must come from the pastor because God has uniquely anointed the pastor to present his vision to the congregation.

Furthermore, the vision must come from the pulpit because presenting the vision through preaching signals to the church that, of all the many important matters the pastor could have preached, the church planting vision has taken precedence.51

Not only is this the case with planting new churches but also with the

formation of church planting networks. Church planting networks are formed by a

combination of churches, denominations, and funding organizations that work together to

see new churches planted. Even in the case of networks, however, most of them began

46 Robert J. Vajko, “Why Do Some Churches Reproduce?,” Evangelical Missions Quarterly, July 2005: 295.

47 Ibid.

48 Ibid.

49 David Garrison, Church Planting Movements (Midlothian, VA: WIGtake Resources, 2004), 240.

50 Ibid.

51 Stetzer, Planting Missional Churches, 317.

25

“in the heart of the lead pastor” and the network is “identified with the local church

pastor who formed it.”52 Thus, the type of vision that inspires others to action will be

generated by the Holy Spirit and manifested in the heart of the leader.

Transformational Leadership

The literature in the area transformational leadership supports this

understanding of vision beginning with the leader. Transformational leadership can be

defined as “a leadership style that involves generating a vision for the organization and

inspiring followers to meet the challenges that it sets.”53 This kind of leadership has to do

with the opportunity to “shape and alter and elevate the motives and values and goals of

followers through the vital teaching role of leadership.”54 This is in contrast to

transactional leadership, which is characterized by the “promise and reward for good

performance, or threat and discipline for poor performance.”55

Transformational Leadership is broken down into four categories, known as

the four “I’s”: 1. Idealized Influence 2. Inspirational Motivation 3. Intellectual Stimulation 4. Individualized Consideration56

52 Stetzer and Travis, “Who Starts New Churches?,” 4.

53 “transformational leadership,” A Dictionary of Business and Management, 2006, Encyclopedia.com (accessed July 30, 2010).

54 James MacGregor Burns, Leadership (New York: Harper and Row, 1978), 425.

55 Bernard M. Bass, “From Transactional to Transformational Leadership: Learning to Share the Vision,” Organizational Dynamics (1990): 20.

56 Bruce J. Avolio and Bernard M. Bass, Improving Organizational Effectiveness Through Transformational Leadership (Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Publications, 1993), 3.

26

Bass and Avolio see communication of vision as a critical aspect of

transformational leadership. The transformational leader communicates in such a way as

to inspire others to share in the vision. This is done not only verbally but also in the

“actions and behaviors” used by the leader.57 One of the tools of transformational

leadership is charisma. Bass says that “charisma” in the eyes of one’s employees is

central to succeeding as a transformational leader.58

Herrington, Bonem, and Furr build on transformational leadership principles

in forming the third part of their “congregational transformation model.”59 Interestingly,

they distinguish the church from business organizations in that “the spiritual health of the

pastor and other key leaders is intimately intertwined with that of the congregation.”60

Citing the need for “service and risk,” they urge pastors to provide a model for others to

follow.61 This would be consistent with the inspirational motivation concept offered by

Bass and Avolio.

Strock comments on the evolution of the transformational leadership

paradigm in the Information Age:

Gandhi and other historic leaders who challenged great institutions could achieve significant power based on their moral authority. If such authority was conferred by those “below,” it would have power because it was consistent with the values of those “above.” Today armed with Information Age tools, more and more individuals can realistically aspire to attain both moral and formal authority – even within institutions resistant to change and accountability. If it’s a challenging moment for those holding formal positions of power, it’s an

57 Avolio and Bass, Improving Organizational Effectiveness Through Transformational

Leadership, 45.

58 Bass, “From Transactional to Transformational Leadership,” 21.

59 Jim Herrington, Mike Bonem, and James H. Furr, Leading Congregational Change - A Practical Guide for the Transformational Journey (San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass, 2000), 10.

60 Ibid.,159.

61 Ibid,. 97.

27

exhilarating moment for those who effectively serve others. To an unprecedented extent, it’s possible for anyone to become a leader. Those who serve most effectively can serve more people, in more ways, than ever before.62

In other words, seeing the heart of the leader and what that leader is willing to

do is what creates credibility in today’s world. It is harder to “fake” commitment to a

cause then it has ever been. One’s actions, rather than a title, have become the basis for

their authority.

Credibility and Authenticity

Communicating strong personal conviction goes beyond the intellectual and

strategic and into the realm of the emotional. Kotter concludes from his research that

“feelings are more important than thoughts” in affecting others’ behavior in an

organization.63 Emotions, not merely thoughts, are part of what becomes the “driving

force” behind the planting of new churches.64 Bob Logan points out that when Jesus saw

the crowds who desperately needed to know of his love, his response was to have

compassion on them, because they were “like sheep without a shepherd.”65 Thus the

realm of emotions should not be discounted.

While emotions can have a great positive effect, they can also stand in the

way of new churches. Ingebretson and Nebel, in listing the “landmines” of parent

churches, cite “paralyzing fear” first on the list of what keeps churches from planting

62 James M. Strock, Serve to Lead: Your Transformational 21st Century Leadership System (Scottsdale: Serve to Lead Press, 2010). Kindle Electronic Edition: Chapter 1, Location 358-386.

63 John Kotter, A Sense of Urgency (Boston, MA: Harvard Business Press, 2008), 45.

64 Robert E. Logan, Be Fruitful and Multiply (St. Charles, IL: Church Smart Resources, 2006), 77.

65 Ibid.

28

other churches.66 The senior pastor must take the lead and “get beyond his own fears

before imparting courage to others.”67

How does a leader, then, communicate strong personal conviction? Two

words emerge from the literature that appear to be connected to each other: credibility

and authenticity.

Leaders must establish credibility with their followers if they are to get people

to buy into the vision. These days the “office” of pastor is not given the same respect it

once was and is in fact being met with increasing skepticism.68 The effectiveness of the

senior pastor’s vision to inspire the birthing of new churches is not wrapped up in the

crafting of words he produces, but in the life he lives based on the truth he believes and

how far he is willing to go – even to the point of martyrdom.69

One of the elements that can build credibility is storytelling. According to

research done by Bill George, authentic leaders consistently say that they find their

leadership motivation through understanding their own stories.70 In fact, even difficult

stories become motivators for developing convictions about life. Kouzes and Posner

encourage leaders to master the “ancient art of storytelling.” These stories should come

from “critical moments” in the leader’s life and serve as a primary way to build

credibility.71

66 Tom Nebel and Ben Ingebretson, Parent Church Landmines: Ten Mistakes a Multiplying Church Should Avoid (St. Charles, IL: Church Smart Resources, 2009), 1.

67 Ibid., 4.

68 Thomas G. Bandy, Why Should I Believe You? Rediscovering Clergy Credibility (Nashville, TN: Abington Press, 2006), 8.

69 Ibid., 40.

70 Bill George, True North: Discover Your Authentic Leadership (San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass, 2007), 8.

71 James Kouzes and Barry Posner, Credibility: How Leaders Gain and Lose It, Why People Demand It (San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass, 2003), 197.

29

Credibility is perhaps the number one tool any leader of an organization has.

Kouzes and Posner state their First Law of Leadership this way: “If you don’t believe in

the messenger, you won’t believe the message.”72 In what is referred to as “above all

else” when it comes to believing in the leader, people must be able to see that their leader

is “personally excited and enthusiastic about the direction” that the organization is

headed.73 In contrast, when it comes to church planting churches, Phil Stevenson points

out that if the congregation detects hesitancy on the part of the pastor, they will be

hesitant as well.74

According to Andy Stanley, when the senior pastor has “embraced the vision

personally” he will gain credibility and it will actually become easier for the congregation

to follow his lead.75 Once that happens, the congregation will now have the permission to

embrace the vision themselves.76 Malphurs agrees, citing “personal dedication of the

leader to the cause” as a key factor of establishing credibility and thus effectively

communicating the vision.77 According to Mancini, a vision that “ooze[s]” out of the

pastor’s life, combined with a church culture that corresponds to that vision, will be what

makes the church effective in the future.78 What attracts people to pastors is not programs

72 James Kouzes and Barry Posner, The Leadership Challenge (San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass, 2003), 33.

73 Ibid., 32-33.

74 Stevenson, The Ripple Church, 66.

75 Andy Stanley, Making Vision Stick (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2007), Kindle Electronic Edition: Location 339-47.

76 Ibid., Location 347-354.

77 Aubrey Malphurs, Developing a Vision for Ministry (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1999), 90.

78 Mancini, Church Unique, Introduction, Location 144-46.

30

or promises, but credibility.79 This credibility arises from authentic leadership: “The

authentic leader is one whose actions and words are coherent and internally consistent.”80

This is true in the marketplace as well. The literature indicates that trust is

established when followers see that the leader understands who he is and what he

believes in.81 Gilmore and Pine argue that “with the rise of authenticity as the new

consumer sensibility, what consumers really want is the real from the genuine, not the

fake from the phony, and therefore increasingly make the distinction between the two.”82

Steven Covey writes of the importance of having a “center” when it comes to establishing

trust:

If you’re going to have integrity – or integratedness – you have to have a core, something to which you must be true. You can’t work from the inside out if you don’t know what’s inside. So you need to have a center. You need to have identified values. You need to know what you stand for and you need to stand for it, so that others know, too.83

In Scripture, Nehemiah was one leader who communicated authenticity

through his actions, and that authenticity translated into vision that inspired action. It is

interesting to note that Nehemiah did not simply cast the vision for the Jews to rebuild the

wall. He accompanied this bold idea with the story of how God had placed this vision in

his heart. At first he was reluctant to do so: “And I told no one what my God had put into

my heart to do for Jerusalem” (Neh 2:12).However, when the time was right, Nehemiah

79 Roxburgh and Romanuk, The Missional Leader, 131.

80 Ibid., 132.

81 Warren Bennis, Managing the Dream (Cambridge, MA: Perseus Publishing, 2000), 156. Bennis quotes Robert Bolton’s preface to his play, A Man for all Seasons. Bolton writes that the character Thomas More had an “adamantine sense of is own self.” This, to Bennis, is the closest available definition of authenticity.

82 James H. Gilmore and B. Joseph Pine, Authenticity: What Consumers Really Want (Peabody, MA: Harvard Business School Press, 2007), 250.

83 Steven Covey, The Speed of Trust: The One thing that Changes Everything (New York: Free Press, 2008), 69.

31

finally tells the people, “And I told them of the hand of my God that had been upon me

for good, and also of the words that the king has spoken to me” (Neh 2:18). When the

people were able to hear the story of what God had done in Nehemiah’s life, they were

convinced that God indeed had plans for them as well.84 They needed to hear the journey

in which God had taken him that subsequently led to the strength of his conviction. It was

not merely his message but the authenticity that came by sharing his story that was

necessary for the people to embrace the vision.

Dying to Self

A final aspect to gaining credibility emerged through an interview with a regional

leader of a church planting network in Texas. He pointed out that senior pastors of church

planting churches go beyond strong personal conviction and actually experience what can

only be described as a “death.”85 They die to their dreams and ambitions of being the

biggest or most popular church in the region. It is that type of leadership that one would

expect to be present in a senior pastor of a church planting church.

This type of death to personal ambition is also consistent with Jim Collins’ “Level

5 Leader” concept developed in Good to Great. Collins identified a variety of factors that

were responsible for American companies that blossomed from average to exceptional. In

Collins’ view, the Level 5 leader brings together the unlikely and even “paradoxical”

combination of personal humility and professional will.86 It is this leader, maintains

Collins, who possesses a visceral passion for the institution that extends far beyond

personal ambition.

84 Blackaby and Blackaby, Spiritual Leadership, 79.

85 Brian Hook, interview by author, Dallas, TX (July 22, 2010).

86 Jim Collins, Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap…And Others Don’t (New York: Harper Business, 2001), 20.

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Hypothesis 2

When senior pastors inspire their congregations to plant, we would expect

their rationale to go beyond merely jumping on the bandwagon of a trendy strategy.

Rather, it would emerge from a desire to join in the fulfillment of a mandate deeply

rooted in Scripture. One role of a spiritual leader is to “bear witness to what God says.”87

This is what the second hypothesis is concerned with, which states: Selected Senior

Pastors of Church Planting Churches will Identify the Communication of Theological

Rationale as a Key Factor in Casting Vision for a New Church Plant.

Prior to the 1990’s there was relatively little written about the practice of

church planting. Bob Logan captured what appears to be the main concern of the church

growth and planting literature of the time in his frequently quoted “vision” of drowning

church planters.88 He lamented the many planters who did not possess the tools needed to

survive the rigors of church planting, and his subsequent Church Planters Tool Kit was

one of the first resources designed to address this practical problem.89

Malphurs answered this call with Planting Growing Churches for the 21st

Century in 1992. He presents the biblical case for church planting on Jesus’ promise to

build his church (Matt. 16:18) as well as the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20).90 In

addition to this, he argues for the need for new churches and the advantages that they

have over existing churches. 91 While both a biblical and practical rationale was offered

for church planting, the bulk of the book was to help aspiring church planters focus on

the how to, more than the why.

87 Blackaby and Blackaby, Spiritual Leadership, 75.

88 Robert E. Logan, Beyond Church Growth (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1989). 10.

89 Ibid.

90 Malphurs, Planting Growing Churches for the 21st Century, 32-46.

91 Ibid.

33

Throughout the 20th century there had been significant works written on the

theology of mission, although the more influential seemed to have been written from a

context outside the United States. Roland Allen’s The Spontaneous Expansion of the

Church argued that church multiplication was a Spirit-led outgrowth of the sharing of the

gospel.92 Lesslie Newbigin’s The Open Secret, published 1978, found agreement with

Allen that the “missionary’s work is done when there has been called into being a living

church” that could function autonomously.93

As the twentieth century came to a close, writers began to use the word

“missional” when referring to the role of the church as “being sent” into society. Ed

Stetzer credits Francis Dubose, Charles Van Engen, and Darrell Guder to be among the

“early key thinkers who are most significant” in developing the usage of this term.94

These missional writers seem to represent the beginnings of literature that sought to join

the theology of mission with practical implications for the church. For example, DuBose

calls for a “fresh quest” to gain a new understanding of mission on linguistic, theological,

administrative, and practical grounds.95 As of the early 1980’s DuBose laments the

common understanding of the word “mission” by noting that it is synonymous with

Spanish-style buildings: “it is significant because it represents the crystallization, the

petrification of an institution which had a dynamic inception. The result is not a mission

but a museum – two concepts which are theoretically as diametrically opposite as two

92 Roland Allen, The Spontaneous Expansion of the Church and the Causes Which Diminish It (London: World Dominion Press, 1960), 10.

93 Lesslie Newbigin, The Open Secret (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1978), 157.

94 Ed Stetzer, “Meanings of Missional - Part 1,” Ed Stetzer, August 14, 2007, www.edstetzer.com/2007/08/meanings-of-missional-part-1-1.html (accessed July 23, 2010).

95 Francis DuBose, God Who Sends: A Fresh Quest for Biblical Mission (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1983), 15-18.

34

concepts can be.”96 His burden, then, was that the church would begin to function in the

same way these now defunct tile-roofed buildings once did.

A review of the literature over the last decade confirms an effort to offer a

more comprehensive theology of church planting and mission in general in an attempt to

shake the church from its sedentary ways.97 Both Stuart Murray and Richard Yates

Hibbert express disappointment at the lack of “biblical engagement” and “theological

basis” surrounding late 20th century church planting literature.98 Gailyn Van Rheenen

warns, “Pragmatism without theological reflection threatens the future of the church.”99

This literature urged the senior pastor to be both a theologian and practitioner.

Van Rheenen offers the illustration of a “missional helix” to describe the relationship

between theology and practice when it comes to church planting. This spiraling concept

begins with “theologies, such as Missio Dei, the kingdom of God…” It then moves to

cultural analysis, historical perspective, and lastly strategy.100

To have a well developed theological rationale for church planting would be

an important communication factor in casting vision for new church plants because it is

by nature risky, scary, and an “unknown” in the minds of many. Even today there are

common objections to church planting. Harrison, Cheyney, and Overstreet, as late as

2008, listed some of these lingering objections:

96 DuBose, God Who Sends, 18.

97 Darrell Guder, The Continuing Conversion of the Church (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 2000), 27.

98 Stuart Murray, Church Planting: Laying Foundations (Scottdale, PA: Herald Press, 2001), 33; Richard Yates Hibbert, “The Place of Church Planting in Mission: Towards a Theological Framework,” Evangelical Review of Theology 33, no. 4 (2009): 316.

99 Gailyn Van Rheenen, “From Theology to Practice: The Helix Metaphor,” Missiology.org: Proving Resources for Missions Education, 2003, www.missiology.org/mmr/mmr25.htm (accessed August 6, 2010).

100 Ibid.

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1. Existing churches can be hurt by draining financial resources 2. Members are “robbed” from established churches 3. There are already enough churches 4. The new church will cause “rivalry” with others 5. New churches are too small to be sustainable 6. New churches can ignore meaningful tradition 7. New churches cost too much101

These objections must ultimately be faced theologically. While many church

planting practitioners might readily dismiss them, Murray takes them seriously.102 He

suggests that if church planting results in the same type of churches that are currently

failing, then yes, church planting is objectionable.103 Verkuyl assesses the state of the

church by how well it “contribute[s] to the messianic kingdom.”104 Thus kingdom

contribution, as far as the bulk of the literature is concerned, seems be the ultimate test of

church effectiveness.

The Kingdom of God as a Theological Rationale for Church Planting

In addition to the Great Commission and Christ’s promise to build his church,

other theological categories emerged to provide a rationale for church planting. Three

that Murray offers have formed his “theological framework.” They are the missio dei, the

incarnation, and the kingdom of God.105 The larger body of literature, however, seems to

101 Rodney Harrison, Tom Cheyney, and Don Overstreet, Spin-off Churches: How One Church Successfully Plants Another (Nashville, TN: Broadman and Holman Publishing, 2008), 29.

102 Murray, Church Planting, 19.

103 Ibid., 21.

104 Johannes Verkuyl, “The Kingdom of God as the Goal of the Missio Dei,” International Review of Mission 68, no. 270 (April 1979): 173.

105 Murray, Church Planting, 38-53.

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point to the kingdom of God as the most prominent and overarching of the three.106 For

example, Verkuyl believes that the whole goal of the missio dei is not the church per se,

but the kingdom of God.107 Hibbert cites a variety of missiologists who share this view,

among them J. Bavnick, Arthur Glasser, and Donald MacGavran.108

Ladd describes the kingdom of God as Christ’s vehicle that “created the

church” and what “works in the world through the church” to accomplish God’s

purposes.109 Thus, it is against the vision of the kingdom that the church’s “missional

soul” must be measured.110 This is because the objective of the church is to be a “sign and

a servant of the kingdom of God in the world.”111 We would expect, then, that pastors of

church planting churches would have as their primary theological rationale the concept of

the kingdom of God.112

Scripture certainly supports this idea. When Jesus taught his disciples to pray,

he began this way: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come,

your will be done…” (Matt 6:9-10 ESV). This was accompanied by an explanation of the

kingdom told in the form of parables. Two in particular describe the kingdom as both a

106 Murray seems to emphasize the kingdom of God even more than the missio dei or the incarnation. He maintains that both church growth and church planting are “subordinate theologically to the advance of the kingdom.” Ibid., 51.

107 Verkuyl, “The Kingdom of God as the Goal of the Missio Dei,” 168.

108 Richard Yates Hibbert, “The Place of Church Planting in Mission: Towards a Theological Framework,” Evangelical Review of Theology 33, no. 4 (2009): 323.

109 George Ladd, Gospel of the Kingdom: Scriptural Studies in the Kingdom of God (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1959), 125.

110 Darrell Guder and Lois Barrett, Missional Church (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1998), 109.

111 Eddie Gibbs, ChurchNext: Quantum Changes in How We Do Ministry (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000), 190.

112 That new churches should emerge out of the active proclamation of the kingdom of God is the basis for Hugh Halter and Matt Smay, The Tangible Kingdom: Creating Incarnational Community (San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass, 2008), 6.

37

mustard seed and yeast, illustrating its slow but inevitably dominating activity (Luke

13:18-21 ESV). Finally, Jesus reveals that the reason he was sent to Earth was to “preach

the good news of the kingdom of God” (Luke 4:43 ESV). We might expect, therefore,

that an alignment with Jesus’ mission would be present in the motivations and

communication of senior pastors who plant new churches.

Kingdom of God Defined

What do we mean by the “kingdom of God?” This concept has many different

definitions, but for our purposes we will define it as the redemptive reign of God

manifesting itself in the world.113 Verkuyl defines it as “… the creation which has

achieved its goal. Chaos will be overcome, every antimessianic tendency will have been

erased, and God’s liberating acts will have reached their final goal. The whole of the

church’s deep and wide mission agenda must receive its focus and orientation in this

kingdom perspective.”114

If the kingdom of God is not the same as the church, then God’s work must be

taking place both inside and outside of the church as the missio dei is being

accomplished. However, throughout history the church has struggled with an identity

crisis, mistaking itself for the kingdom.115 Van Engen identifies Luther as the catalyst for

the Protestant church to begin to see the distinction between herself and the kingdom.116

113 George Ladd, often quoted in the literature and generally seen as an authority on the subject, offers the “rule of God” as a definition. He then proceeds to explain the Kingdom of God in terms of its activity, both present and future. He also writes that “The Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Heaven, eternal life, salvation: they are interchangeable terms.” Ladd, Gospel of the Kingdom, 33.

114 Verkuyl, “The Kingdom of God as the Goal of the Missio Dei,” 169.

115 David J. Bosch, Transforming Mission: Paradigm Shifts in Theology of Mission (New York: Orbis Books, 1991), 332; Charles Van Engen, God's Missionary People: Rethinking the Purpose of the Local Church (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1991), 104-109; Newbigin, The Open Secret, 155.

116 Van Engen, God's Missionary People, 105.

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Only when the church acts like an instrument of the kingdom, proclaiming its arrival, will

she reclaim her purpose.117 Nevertheless, Hibbert maintains that as the “central expression

of the kingdom of God” until Christ’s return, the church is to put on display for the world

what the kingdom is to look like, and thus church planting derives its legitimacy.118

We would expect pastors of church planting churches to understand the

relationship of the church and the kingdom in this way. Brian Hook, Pastor of Church

Planting at NorthWood Church, defined the kingdom as simply, “Jesus in action.” 119 The

church, then, has the role of being involved in that action. In practice, Murray writes,

“Distinguishing the kingdom from the church prepares church planters and evangelists to

encounter God already at work in people who have had no contact with the church, rather

than assuming they are in some way bringing God with them into situations where he has

not been at work.”120

The Connection between Hypothesis 2 and Hypothesis 3—The Distinction Between Apostolic Identity and Action

All of the above we would expect to be communicated to the congregation as

part of a vision casting strategy for church planting. Bob Roberts, Founding Pastor of

NorthWood Church writes “Preaching is only a function; it’s a tool. God called me to

something much greater – he called me to the kingdom.121

Closely related to this understanding of being “called to the kingdom,” as

opposed to being called to just the “church,” will be what forms the next hypothesis. For

117 Van Engen, God's Missionary People, 108.

118 Hibbert, “The Place of Church Planting in Mission,” 325.

119 Brian Hook, interview by author, July 22, 2010. Dallas, Texas.

120 Stuart Murray, Church Planting, 49.

121 Bob Roberts, Jr., Transformation: How Glocal Churches Transform Lives and the World (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2006), 27.

39

example, leaders such as Roberts identify themselves less as the pastor of a church and

more like an apostle of the kingdom.122 The term apostle will be discussed in detail below,

but an important connection needs to be made: the understanding of the kingdom can

cause the leader to capture an apostolic identity, where that leader sees himself playing a

part in the manifestation of the kingdom as a whole, not just the growth and

maximization of a single local church. Stetzer and Bird illustrate this relationship in their

description of Hope Chapel’s Founding Pastor Ralph Moore:

Some churches, such as Ralph Moore’s Hope Chapel…see themselves as apostolic. They look at every new believer and every emerging leader as a potential person to be sent out to start a new church. If these people remain connected to Hope Chapel, fine, but if not, fine…Moore’s heart is set on helping disciples grow, thus he seeks every possible opportunity to send them out to evangelize others and thereby populate the kingdom of God.123

That apostolic identity will be accompanied by what might be called apostolic

action, the type of action that it takes to ensure that new churches can get started on the

best footing possible. This fundamental shift in identity, from pastor to apostle will be

what drives senior pastors of church planting churches to communicate willingness to

sacrifice resources as a key factor in casting vision for a new church plant.

Hypothesis 3

The third hypothesis expresses yet another expectation: Selected Senior

Pastors in Church Planting Churches will Identify the Communication of Willingness to

Sacrifice Resources as a Key Factor in Casting Vision for a New Church Plant. It is this

willingness that is part of the “package” of casting vision for a new church plant. Why

this expectation? In part, as stated above, the literature reveals that senior pastors of

church planting churches tend to identify themselves in the role an “apostle.” Therefore,

122 Roberts, The Multiplying Church, Chapter 5, Location 1505-1519.

123 Stetzer and Bird, Viral Churches, Chapter 5, Location 1356-1367.

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the nature of that identity will be examined first. From there, we can gain clarity as to

what “sacrificing resources” looks like according to a survey of the available literature

relating to churches planting churches in the United States specifically.

The Senior Pastor’s Identification with the Role of “Apostle”

The word “apostle” has experienced resurgence in recent church planting

literature. There are many ways to define it, but an analysis of the literature seems to

define it this way: An apostle sees himself involved with a broad movement of the

kingdom of God across a region rather than simply a shepherd of believers in one

locality.

One of the more influential books of the past decade in missional thinking has

been Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch’s The Shaping of Things to Come. The authors made

the case for a return to apostolic leadership and offered the acronym APEPT. This

acronym captures the five ministry categories given in Ephesians 4:11, namely: apostle,

prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher.124 The authors maintain that all five must be

functional if the church is to reach its potential.125 Apostolic leadership especially must be

activated in order for the church for it to regain its missional nature. In The Forgotten

Ways, Hirsch further defines apostolic leadership as a “function and not an office.”126 He

writes:

At core, the apostolic task is about the expansion of Christianity both physically in the form of pioneering missionary effort and church planting, as well as theologically through integration of apostolic doctrine into the life of the individual Christians and the communities they are a part of. But more than that,

124 Alan Hirsch and Michael Frost, The Shaping of Things to Come: Innovation and Misison

for the 21st-Century Church (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 2003), 166.

125 Ibid., 169.

126 Alan Hirsch, The Forgotten Ways: Reacting the Missional Church (Grand Rapids, MI: Brazos Press, 2006), 153.

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as custodian of Apostolic Genius, he or she is the person who provides the personal reference point as well as the spiritual context for the other ministries of God’s people.127

However, not everyone agrees with the use of this moniker to describe

present-day church leaders. For example, according to Grudem, to be an apostle in the

traditional sense one must have met two requirements. First, one had to be an eyewitness

of Jesus after his resurrection, and second, one had to be called directly by Jesus to be his

apostle.128 These unique individuals carried with them special authority during the time of

the early church. If one accepts these requirements, it would become problematic for

leaders today to characterize themselves in this manner.129

However, Stetzer and Bird affirm the role of a present day apostolic leader,

“as long as we are describing the role of an initiator who plants churches that in turn plant

more churches.”130 Citing a definition from Stetzer’s earlier work, they define apostolic as

“one who is ‘authoritatively sent.’”131 They further describe someone gifted apostolically

as one who wants to plant a movement, not just a church.132 In both Stetzer and Hirsch’s

understanding, the emphasis would be taken off the word “authoritative” and on the word

“sent.”

127 Hirsch, The Forgotten Ways, 154.

128 Grudem, Systematic Theology, 906.

129 Grudem sees the term as “inappropriate” to be used to describe anyone alive today. He cites the fact that “no major leader in the history of the church – not Athansius or Augustine, not Luther or Calvin, not Wesley or Whitefield – has taken to himself the title of ‘apostle’ or let himself be called an apostle.” Systematic Theology, 911.

130 Stetzer and Bird, Viral Churches, Chapter 2, Location 492-99.

131 Ed Stetzer and David Putnam, Breaking the Missional Code (Nashville, TN: Broadman and Holman Publishers, 2006), 71. Addison, Movements that Change the World, Introduction, Location 277.

132 Stetzer and Bird, Viral Churches, Chapter 2, Location 505-12.

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This concept of sending pushes the leader beyond concern for the members of

one flock and into the realm of concern for the not-yet-Christians of an entire region.133

Tom Bandy sees the “apostolic attitude” as “a fundamental preference for the stranger,

over and against a fundamental preference for the member.”134 He maintains that this

requires “spontaneous, daring, habitual preference for strangers of grace.”135 For Bandy,

this is “apostolic integrity.”136

Jesus as the One Who was Sent

The apostolic concept characterized Jesus’ ministry and teaching. He

described himself as one who was sent (ἀπεστάλην) for the purpose of preaching “the

good news of the kingdom of God” (Luke 4:43). This understanding was the reason, as

recorded in Luke 4:42-44, that he moved on from those who had urged him to stay. The

apostolic attitude is characterized by continually reaching out to those who do not know

and have not heard. Again, this is reflected in Jesus description of his purpose: “For the

Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost” (Luke 19:10). In the context of his

teaching on the kingdom of Heaven, he explains that a man will have greater joy over

finding one lost sheep than the ninety-nine he already has (Matt 18:12). This theme is

continued in the parable of the great banquet, the parable of the lost coin, and the parable

of the prodigal son (Luke 14:12-24; 15:8-10; 15:11-32).

This sending role does not end with him. Instead, it begins with the Father

who sends the Son, who in turn sends his disciples. In fact, shortly before Jesus’

133 Sherri Brown and Margaret Slusher, “Becoming a Church Planting Church,” Leadership Network, 2007, www.leadnet.org/Resources_downloads.asp (accessed August 9, 2010), 2.

134 Bandy, Why Should I Believe You?, 42.

135 Ibid.

136 Ibid., 47.

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crucifixion, as he prayed to his Father in the Garden of Gethsemane, he identifies himself

six times as sent from the Father. He then declares, “As you sent me into the world, so I

have sent them into the world” (John 17:18). It is of course reflected further in the Great

Commission (Matt 28:18-20). The word “apostle” might carry a connotation that is

troubling to some. However, it is certainly understandable that leaders who desire to

identify with Jesus and his ministry would gravitate toward thinking of themselves as

possessing an apostolic role. They desire to both send and be sent. Thus, we would expect

to find this attitude in pastors of church planting churches.

Apostolic Action: The Connection Between Apostolic Identity and Sacrificing Resources

This concern for a region, rather than one locality, is what lies at the basis of

the third hypothesis. When senior pastors share their vision for planting outside of their

church, we would expect this attitude to manifest itself in what we might call apostolic

action: namely, the willingness to sacrifice resources that could be used for one’s own

church for the larger kingdom vision.137 These leaders realize that they cannot reach an

entire region with just one church, so they do not see their ultimate goal in building one

church but are willing to release their resources to accomplish what they see as a greater

mission.

Tim Hawks from Hill Country Bible church illustrates this perfectly. After

introducing himself at the beginning video message to prospective church planters on

their church website, Hawks says immediately, “Austin is a great city.”138 He then goes

on to invite basically anyone to apply to their church planting residency, offering spiritual

137 Easum and Travis, Beyond the Box, 125.

138 Tim Hawks, “Church Planting Training Center,” Hill Country Bible Church, Vimeo, http://vimeo.com/9208189 (accessed July 25, 2010).

44

support, financial support, and building strong partnerships.139 Hawks’ apostolic gifting is

revealed best when he says “at the end of our life we want to be able to present this city

as an offering to God.”140

The reason the word “sacrifice” is used in the hypothesis is to keep the focus

on the fact that these leaders are giving away resources they could use within their own

organization. The resources we are specifically referring to are in the areas of finances

and people. We would expect pastors of church planting churches to demonstrate a

willingness to give both of these resources away. In fact, they are willing to do anything

that is necessary not for themselves, but for the good of the cause.141

Senior pastors must communicate a willingness to make costly investments in

the churches they plant out of their congregation to ensure their success. Bob Logan

writes, “Engaging in multiplying churches means taking risks – sometimes financial

risks, sometimes the risk of giving away people, and always the risk of shifting your

focus from your own congregation to the wider work the Lord is doing.”142 Phil

Stevenson concurs, noting that both “members” and “money” are two of the five “M’s” a

parent church must be willing to invest.143

The concept of sacrifice, thus, is attached to leadership. John Maxwell writes

about the law of sacrifice as critical to leadership.144 Vajko identifies risk taking as the

second reason churches reproduce. He writes, “One pastor interviewed seemed to rejoice

139 Hawks, “Church Planting Training Center.”

140 Ibid.

141 Jim Collins, Good to Great and the Social Sectors: A Monograph to Accompany Good to Great (New York: Harper-Collins, 2005), 11.

142 Logan, Be Fruitful and Multiply, 23.

143 Stevenson, The Ripple Church, 70, 72.

144 Maxwell, The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership, 226.

45

in people leaving and beginning new works. He did not fear that his church would be

weakened. His church planted some six daughter churches!”145

What makes this component especially important is because new churches

absolutely need adequate resources in order to launch effectively. The senior pastor’s

willingness to model this for the congregation is key.

How Churches are Investing in New Church Plants

The research confirms the importance of church planting churches making

financial investments in their plants. Without funding of any kind, there would not be

much church planting in the United States.146 Traditionally the majority of the funding for

new churches has come from denominations. Recently, however, there has been a shift

from the denomination to the local church for both oversight and funding.147 Massive

research projects on church planting in the United States indicate that the average church

plant receives $172,200 from all the networks with which it is associated.148 In fact,

“Many of the more-aggressive parent churches assign 10% or more of the overall church

budget to domestic church planting.”149

In 2007, the North American Mission Board conducted a study focusing on the

survivability and health of church plants. Out of the 2266 churches surveyed, the

researchers discovered that church plants in their survey received $100,182 on average

from outside sources over the first four years. While this funding could have come from a

145 Vajko, “Why Do Some Churches Reproduce?,” 295-296.

146 “Funding New Churches, State of Church Planting, USA,” Leadership Network, 2007, www.leadnet.org/papers (accessed October 14, 2008), 2.

147 Ibid.

148 Ibid., 3.

149 Ibid., 5.

46

variety of sources, it is clear that a significant amount of money was given outside of the

church plant itself.150

These financial resources are critical. For example, the financial issue was

listed as a factor in the evangelistic effectiveness of church plants. Advertising, renting

meeting space, and paying the church planting pastor’s salary were all identified as

reasons for the success of the new church.151

We would also expect to find senior pastors in church planting churches to

offer people from their church to be part of the new church plant. One of the reasons

people resources are so critical is due to the realistic viability of the church. Regardless of

the context, every church has some threshold of viability. For example, according to Lyle

Shaller, a suburban church needs 500 - 800 people to be competitive in its community.152

While the word “competitive” might be problematic, what is at issue is the ability to meet

the general expectations of both Christians and non-Christians in the community that the

church is trying to reach. For example, most people in a suburban context will expect a

quality worship, children’s, and youth ministry whether they are believers or not. These

factors must be taken into consideration when it comes to providing adequate resources

for a new church.

In terms of financial support given to new church plants, Stetzer and Bird

report:

150 Center for Missional Research, “2007 Survivability and Health” (Power Point Presentation,

Dallas Theological Seminary, 2007).

151 Ibid.

152 Lyle Shaller, “Viable or Competitive?,” Religious Product News, April 2005, www.religiousproductnews.com/articles/2005-April/In-Every-Issue/Viable-or-Competitive-.htm (accessed August 17, 2010).

47

Churches that aggressively pursue church planting have a number of financial

factors in common. Typically these churches expect new church planters to raise a sizeable amount of the church planting budget, commonly 50 to 80 percent. They also rely on their respective denominations. However, as has been mentioned, the majority of funding responsibility is trending toward the parent church and church planter as the source, with the denomination typically providing less than one-third of the needed funds.153

Sherri Brown of Leadership Network produced a report titled, “Becoming a

Church Planting Church: Issues Pastors Address when Leading a Church to Birth a

Network of New Churches.” In her study, one of the questions she asked pastors of

church planting churches was, “What resources are you willing to lose?” Summit Church

in Bonita Springs, FL, responded this way:

While preaching a series of sermons on stewardship, the executive pastor at Summit decided the church should give away the weekly offering to new churches. He wanted to give $15,000 - $5,000 each to three church plants. But, the average weekly offering at the church was only about $11,000 at that time. The next Sunday, when the pastor announced his intentions, the offering was $15,006 and it was all given away.154

This is an example of how a congregation might respond when the leadership

communicates a willingness to sacrifice resources. Clearly from this example, the

offering was much larger than normal, demonstrating that perhaps the congregation

believed that the planting of these new churches was indeed from God.

However, financial resources were not all the church was willing to lose.

Henry Oursler, director of training for Grace Global Network, detailed Summit’s giving

of “people resources” to a church plant launched in 2007:

“We have sent huge amounts of money, four staff members and a number of families,” Henry says. Among the staff members that left the mother church were a worship leader and a community groups pastor.

153 Stetzer and Bird, Viral Churches, Chapter 11, Location 2505-2516.

154 Brown and Slusher, “Becoming a Church Planting Church,” 8.

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“At the first preview service there were 321 people, the vast majority of those were Summit members. The second preview service had 285 people. Again, most were from Summit. We believe that in the end, more than 200 of our people will go with the church plant. Summit (the mother church) is averaging about 1,000, so that’s one-fifth of the congregation. But we are committed to blessing them and seeing them succeed.”155

It is interesting to note that the plant is 20 miles south of the mother church.

This is a distance that would allow for people from the mother church to be involved with

the new plant, something that would have obviously been taken into consideration by the

mother church.156

Perhaps the essence of this third hypothesis can be summed up best by Bill

Clem, a coach for the Acts 29 Network: “If we wait until it’s convenient to start a church,

we’ll never plant. You have to be willing to lose people, resources, and leadership.”157 It

is this attitude that we would expect to find in senior pastors who are seeking to inspire

their congregations to take the step of birthing new churches.

155 Brown and Slusher, “Becoming a Church Planting Church,” 8.

156 Ibid.

157 Ibid.

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CHAPTER 3

PROCEDURE AND RESEARCH METHOD

Introduction

The problem of this research is to examine what selected senior pastors in

church planting churches identify as key communication factors in casting vision for a

new church plant. To make this determination, it is necessary to choose a research

method that will best address the problem. For this project, the research method is case

studies.

Because of the skepticism that many in the social science community possess

regarding the legitimacy of case studies, an explanation will be provided to justify its use

in this research. The case study method represents a type of research that is qualitative in

nature. This means it will deal with data in a more subjective fashion than its counterpart,

known the quantitative method. John Hammond writes, “Simply stated, the case method

calls for discussion of real-life situations that business executives have faced.”1

Robert K. Yin provides a technical definition of a case study: “A case study is

an empirical inquiry that investigates a contemporary phenomenon within its real-life

context, especially when the boundaries between phenomenon and context are not clearly

evident.”2

1 John S. Hammond, “Learning by the Case Method” Harvard Business School, April 16, 2002, http://www.study.net/sample_pdfs/9376241s.pdf (accessed September 15, 2010), 1.

2 Robert K. Yin, Case Study Research: Design and Methods (Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Publications, 2003), 13.

50

Also:

The case study inquiry copes with the technically distinctive situation in which there will be many more variables of interest than data points, and as one result relies on multiple sources of evidence, with data needing to converge in a triangulating fashion, and as another result benefits from the prior development of theoretical propositions to guide data collection and analysis.3

Patrick Thaddeus Jackson, Professor of International Politics at American

University, offered a compelling illustration of the limitations of relying solely on

quantitative methods to determine truth. In a lecture on qualitative research

methodologies, he relayed a story of how the New York Yankees use of statistical

analysis such as Sabermetrics impacted their decision to trade Andy Pettitte, a pitcher for

the Yankees, to the Houston Astros.4 Sabermetrics is a statistical tool designed to rely on

objective data from past performance in order to predict future outcomes.5 Yankee

management had determined through this sort of method that Pettitte was not a

strategically high priority player. That decision, however, led Roger Clemens, Pettitte’s

long-time friend, to become so infuriated that he emerged from retirement to also pitch

for the Houston Astros. Jackson’s point was that while the statistical data may have been

accurate, it was not able to adequately address the multidimensionality of the situation.

Thus, it produced an outcome that was not desirable to the Yankees management,

namely, Clemens’ decision to pitch for the Astros.6

3 Yin, Case Study Research, 13-14.

4 Patrick Thaddeus Jackson, “Lecture One – Introduction, Qualitative Research Methodologies” (lecture, American University, Washington, D.C., May12, 2009), iTunes podcast, 53:20, (accessed August 27, 2010).

5 David Grabiner, “The Sabermetric Manifesto,” Sean Lahman's Baseball Archive, 1994, http://www.baseball1.com/bb-data/grabiner/manifesto.html (accessed September 3, 2010).

6 Jackson, “Lecture One,” iTunes podcast, 55:43.

51

Jackson went on to describe the difference between methodology and method.

In his view, methodology represents the particular goal trying to be reached.7 In the case

of this research, the goal is to determine what selected senior pastors in church planting

churches identify as key communication factors in casting vision for a church plant. This

will hopefully provide us with a methodology to help pastors, denominations, and church

planting organizations inspire existing congregations to start new churches.

Method, then, is the technique that is used to arrive at the methodology; in

other words, what method will most effectively lead us to the methodology that best

addresses our question.8 Thus, according to Jackson, quantitative and qualitative methods

are not fundamentally distinct, but rather tactically distinct.9 Thus, the case study method

has been chosen because, as a tactical research tool, it allows for data collection to be

gathered in a manner that would not be available in a purely quantitative analysis.

For example, regarding our first hypothesis, we do not simply want to know

whether or not senior pastors identify communicating strong personal conviction as a key

factor in casting vision to their congregations for a new church plant. Rather, the desire is

to hear, read, and understand the nature of this strong personal conviction. What

experiences have led the pastor to believe in church planting? What language is used to

describe the passion that the pastor claims to possess for church planting?

Criteria for Selection

Senior pastors who were selected for this study had to meet several

requirements:

7 Jackson, “Lecture One,” iTunes podcast, 55:56.

8 Ibid., 54:20.

9 Ibid., 56:20.

52

1 They had to be in leadership during the time their church had parented a church.

2. They had to have planted a church that is at least two years old. This way we can

narrow the field to include only church plants that have at least successfully

launched. At the same time, we do not have to reach back too far where data

collection might be hindered by fuzzy recollections of the process.

3. The new church plant needed to be “driving distance” from the existing church so

that members of the existing church could choose to be a part of the new church.

There are many churches that might financially support new church plants starting

in other parts of the country or even the world. In those cases, that support might

represent the extent of their involvement.

4. Finally, there needs to be some intentionality on the part of the church planting

church. For example, pre-screening of the senior pastors studied was conducted to

determine that church planting was not something that happened “accidentally” as

the result of a church split or the departure of a rogue staff member. The church

plant had to have been planned in advance, which would then allow for the senior

pastor to discuss his involvement in the plant.

Questionnaire for Senior Pastors

The following questions were asked during each interview. They are

organized underneath each hypothesis:

Hypothesis 1: Selected Senior Pastors in Church Planting Churches will Identify the Communication of Strong Personal Conviction as a Key Factor in Casting Vision for a

New Church Plant.

1. Do you think it is critical for the senior pastor of a church planting church to be

the primary driver behind the effort? Why?

2. How has your own walk with God formed your church planting convictions? How

have you communicated that to the church?

53

3. What “God stories” or symbols have occurred that have strengthened your church

planting convictions? Is the congregation aware of them?

4. Have these stories or symbols become part of the “ethos” of the church as it

relates to church planting?

5. Do you think that the communication of your strong personal conviction is a key

factor in casting vision for a new church plant?

6. How important was it that the congregation understood your passion for church

planting as you were preparing to plant your first daughter church?

Hypothesis 2: Selected Senior Pastors in Church Planting Churches will Identify the Communication of Theological Rationale as a Key Factor in Casting Vision for a New

Church Plant.

1. Do you think church planting pastors think only methodologically and not

theologically about church planting?

2. What role would presenting a theological rationale for church planting have in

casting a church planting vision?

3. What aspects of theology are vital for the church to understand in order to help

them embrace a church planting vision?

4. How is the theological rationale for church planting communicated to the church,

if indeed it is?

5. Would you say that the average person in your congregation, if pulled aside,

could articulate a basic theological rationale for why the church is involved in

church planting?

6. Do you think a pastor can successfully cast a church planting vision without

communicating a theological rationale for church planting?

54

Hypothesis 3: Selected Senior Pastors in Selected Church Planting Churches will Identify the Communication of Willingness to Sacrifice Resources as a Key Factor in Casting

Vision for a New Church Plant.

1. How important is it for the church to know that the pastor is willing to let

resources go in order to plant a new church? Does it contribute to the church

owning the vision?

2. Do you think a pastor can successfully cast a church planting vision if he is not

willing to release finances, people, or both?

3. What resources have you been willing to direct from other church needs in order

to pursue your church planting vision?

4. What percentage of the church budget do you think an aggressive church planting

church should allocate to the church planting ministry?

5. Have you challenged people from your congregation to join the churches you

have been involved in planting? Would you say that challenge has contributed to

people embracing the vision?

6. Have you challenged people from your congregation to contribute to the churches

you have been involved in planting? Would you say that challenge has

contributed to people embracing the vision?

Questionnaire for an Associate Staff Member

Because the nature of the research had to do with the senior pastor, it made

sense to not simply interview the pastor himself but also one other key staff person who

works closely with him. “To convince readers that your research does not have an

unintended slant, you select interviewees whose views reflect different, even contending,

perspectives.”10 Thus, one other key leader of the staff was interviewed. The only

10 Herbert J. and Irene Rubin, Qualitative Interviewing: The Art of Hearing Data (Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Publications, 2005), 64.

55

requirement was that the associate was on staff during the time the senior pastor was

casting vision to the congregation for the plant.

The following questions were asked during each interview. They are

organized underneath each hypothesis:

Hypothesis 1: Selected Senior pastors in Church Planting Churches will Identify the Communication of Strong Personal Conviction as a Key Factor in Casting Vision for a

New Church Plant.

1. Do you think it is critical for the senior pastor of a church planting church to be

the primary driver behind the effort? Why?

2. How has your senior pastor’s own walk with God formed his church planting

convictions? How has he communicated that to the church?

3. What “God stories” or symbols have occurred that have strengthened his church

planting convictions? Is the congregation aware of them?

4. Have these stories or symbols become part of the “ethos” of the church as it

relates to church planting?

5. Do you think that the communication of the senior pastor’s strong personal

conviction is a key factor in casting vision for a new church plant?

6. How important was it that the congregation understood the senior pastor’s passion

for church planting as the church was preparing to plant its first daughter church?

Hypothesis 2: Selected Senior Pastors in Church Planting Churches will Identify the Communication of Theological Rationale as a Key Factor in Casting Vision for a New

Church Plant.

1. Do you think your senior pastor thinks both methodologically and theologically

about church planting?

2. What role has presenting a theological rationale for church planting had in casting

the church planting vision?

56

3. What aspects of theology does the senior appear to see as vital for the church to

understand in order to help them embrace a church planting vision?

4. How is the theological rationale for church planting communicated to the church,

if indeed it is?

5. Would you say that the average person in your congregation, if pulled aside,

could articulate a basic theological rationale for why the church is involved in

church planting?

6. Do you think your senior pastor could have successfully cast a church planting

vision without communicating a theological rationale for church planting?

Hypothesis 3: Selected Senior Pastors in Selected Church Planting Churches will Identify the Communication of Willingness to Sacrifice Resources as a Key Factor in Casting

Vision for a New Church Plant.

1. How important is it for the church to know that the pastor is willing to let

resources go in order to plant a new church? Does it contribute to the church

owning the vision?

2. Do you think the senior pastor can successfully cast a church planting vision if he

is not willing to release finances, people, or both?

3. What resources has the senior pastor been willing to direct from other church

needs in order to pursue his church planting vision?

4. How has your senior pastor influenced the allocation of funds to the church

planting ministry?

5. How has the senior pastor challenged people from the congregation to join the

churches it has involved in planting? Would you say that challenge has

contributed to people embracing the vision?

57

6. How has the senior pastor challenged people from the congregation to contribute

to the churches it has been involved in planting? Would you say that challenge

has contributed to people embracing the vision?

Case Study 1: Pastor Bob Roberts, Jr., NorthWood Church

NorthWood Church was planted by Bob Roberts in 1985 and has planted

about 130 churches since the early 1990’s. While their attendance is about 2500 on any

given Sunday, they are quick to point out that if they pulled all the churches together that

they have planted there would be about 20,000 people in total.11 Roberts has written

extensively about his approach to church planting and is currently a popular speaker at

many conferences, including the annual Exponential Conference in Orlando, FL, which is

billed as “the largest gathering of church planting leaders on the planet.”12 Because the

nature of this project involves a personal interview, I attempted to balance Roberts’

written material with direct dialogue that came about as the result of the interview.

The Interviews

Two interviews were conducted for this case study, one with Bob Roberts and

one with Brian Hook. Because I wanted to be able to gain an additional perspective on

Roberts and the effectiveness of his vision casting, the interview with Hook was

extremely valuable.

Interview with Bob Roberts

My interview with Bob Roberts was conducted on September 27, 2010, in his

office at NorthWood Church in Keller, Texas. The interview lasted about an hour. While

11 Bob Roberts, interview by author, Keller, TX (September 27, 2010).

12 Exponential Conference 2011, http://www.exponentialconference.org (accessed January 6, 2011).

58

much of what Roberts believes can be read in his books, it was important to hear him

address the issues concerning this case study in a one-on-one setting.

Interestingly enough, when I arrived at the church for the interview, I had to

wait about thirty minutes after our scheduled appointment for Roberts to emerge from his

office. When he finally came out to meet me, he was genuinely apologetic and said he

had received a surprise phone call from a certain state governor and, as he explained, “I

had to take it.”13 This was consistent with Roberts’ ability to gain a voice into the lives of

high-ranking people in various societies around the world as he pursues his vision of

spreading the gospel.

Because of Roberts’ status as somewhat of a celebrity in the church planting

world, he is accustomed to giving a variety of interviews. I could tell that this interview

was perhaps a little different for him than others he had given because the focus was on a

very narrow emphasis of leadership, namely, casting vision for a new church plant. Also,

due to the constraints of this study, the questions were not prepared for him specifically

and what is unique about his ministry. Rather, the questions were prepared for several

different respondents. However, I found him to be very gracious with regards to the goal

of this particular project. His responses to each question were clear, direct, and full of the

type of passion one might expect from this type of leader.

Interviews with Brian Hook

Brian Hook is the regional director of Vision 360 DFW

(www.vision360dfw.com) and has been recently hired as NorthWood’s Church Planting

Director. I had two opportunities to interview him. The first was on Thursday, July 22,

2010. We met at the Corner Bakery Café in Dallas, Texas, for an interview that lasted

13 Tim Jacobs, Field Notes, Dallas, Texas (September 27, 2010).

59

about an hour. The second interview was held on September 28, 2010, at his office on the

NorthWood campus. This interview lasted about an hour as well, and was a chance to

follow up in a more in-depth way on the subject matter of the first interview.

Of all the associate staff that could have been interviewed, Hook was perhaps

the best because of his role as the church planting pastor at NorthWood as well as his

involvement in Vision 360 DFW. Vision360 DFW is a church planting network made up

of thirteen churches in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area that are committed to multiplying

churches within the region. They are part of a larger church planting organization called

Vision 360 based in Orlando, FL (www.vision360.org). This organization helps to train

church planters all over the United States. Co-founded by Al Weiss, President of Disney

World, Vision 360 also helps direct resources to church planters to help them get started.

Hook was more than willing to speak extensively about Roberts’ vision

casting for church planting and what has happened at NorthWood as a result. It was clear

that he was deeply knowledgeable about what animates Roberts and was able to provide

valuable perspective on the content related to this study.

Case Study 2: Pastor Mark Hopper, Evangelical Free Church of Diamond Bar

Evangelical Free Church of Diamond Bar started with six families in 1967.

Today, according to their website, they have over 300 families.14 Mark Hopper has been

the church’s senior pastor since 1988. Growing up in Scottsdale, AZ, Hopper attended

Arizona State University and then received a Th.M. from Dallas Theological Seminary.

After graduating from seminary, he was the Senior Pastor of Chapel in the Hills Church

in Tucson, Arizona. During that time he also received another master’s degree from the

University of Arizona.

14 EFree Diamond Bar, “Our History,” http://diamondbarchurch.com/about-us/history (accessed January 7, 2011).

60

One of the more interesting pieces of Hopper’s story that will be discussed

later is that Mark has never actually planted a church himself. However, he had always

wanted to be a church planter and even wrote his master’s thesis on church planting.15

This is an important piece of data as it relates to the vision for church planting being in

the heart of the senior pastor.

The Interviews

Because of the value of getting several perspectives on this case, I interviewed

both Mark Hopper, the senior pastor, and Mark Lee, an associate pastor who is now the

senior pastor of EV Free Diamond Bar’s church plant. Because both pastors have the

same first name, they will be referred to by their last names, Hopper and Lee, throughout

the remainder of this project.

It was very helpful to have interviewed Lee because of the multiple roles he

played throughout the church planting process. At first he was the Adult Ministries Pastor

of EV Free Diamond Bar and as far as the church plant was concerned “didn’t want

anything to do with it in the beginning.”16 But as God changed his heart he was able move

from indifference to interest, and then to becoming the focal point of the church plant

itself. Lee’s insight into Hopper’s ability to cast the vision of church planting to a 43-year

old church that had never reproduced was extremely valuable. He was able to view the

situation from all sides and was able to provide unique insights into the situation.

The Interview with Mark Hopper

I interviewed Hopper on Friday, October 8, 2010. The interview lasted about

sixty-five minutes and took place at his office on the campus of EV Free Diamond Bar. It

15 Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA (October 8, 2010).

16 Mark Lee, interview by author, Chino, CA (October 8, 2010).

61

was advantageous to meet Mark on site because I was able to gain further insight into the

circumstances surrounding the planting of VantagePoint Church, the daughter church of

EV Free Diamond Bar. I found Hopper to be a very wise, thoughtful, genuinely caring

individual, eager to tell the whole story of their church planting experience.

The Interview with Mark Lee

Lee and I met in his office in shortly after my interview with Mark Hopper.

Because the two churches are about twenty minutes from each other, I flew in for the day

and scheduled the appointments back to back. The interview lasted just under an hour.

Lee struck me as an extremely articulate, energetic, and focused leader. His responses

were direct and confident, signaling to me that he was very aware of the issues that were

raised in the interview.

62

CHAPTER 4

RESULTS

Introduction

The two leaders represented in the following case studies could not be more

different. While Roberts leads a megachurch of over 2500 people and can count about

130 churches NorthWood has been involved in planting, EV Free Diamond Bar is a

church of roughly 500 people and has planted only one church. The leadership style of

both of pastors is also vastly different. Roberts is a self-described “apostle” who is an

author, speaker, and a hard-charging “take no prisoners” type. Hopper is more of a

shepherd, possessing a soft-spoken, laid back approach. While Roberts was the founding

pastor of NorthWood, Hopper became EV Free Diamond Bar’s pastor when the church

was twenty-one years old and has never personally planted a church.

In the midst of these differences, however, there are several similarities. First,

both pastors have led their respective churches to reproduction. Second, they also

acknowledged that had they not been the driving force behind the church planting

endeavor, it never would have happened. Third, each communicated a deep passion for

church planting that is motivated by a biblical mandate. Finally, both men have made

great sacrifices and paid quite a high price to see their respective church planting visions

come true.

Summary of Results

These case studies reveal that the selected senior pastors are aware of the role

that casting vision has played in the success of starting new churches from their existing

church. They see vision not only as a statement on a wall, or even a sermon on Sunday

63

morning, but a lifestyle that must be lived consistently in view of the people they are

leading.

The case studies below document the results that came from the interviews

and background information gathered about each ministry. The results are ordered by

each hypothesis, as well as continued interaction with the material discussed in chapter 2.

Prior to reporting the results of each case study, a brief synopsis of the expected results

pertaining to the each hypothesis is provided below.

Hypothesis 1

The expectation was to find that the first hypothesis is true. It was stated as

follows: Selected Senior Pastors in Church Planting Churches will Identify the

Communication of Strong Personal Conviction as a Key Factor in Casting Vision for a

New Church Plant. Thus, the senior pastors surveyed will report that church planting is

more than just a department that has been outsourced, but the manifestation of a deeply

held conviction. This conviction will have come about through a variety of ways. Bob

Roberts writes, “Pastors who raise up other pastors and plant churches out of their church

are generally pastors who have been broken. This brokenness generally results from a

failed attempt to achieve their own dreams as opposed to God’s.”1 This life experience

will be likely one of the reinforcements that will have solidified their conviction that

church planting is the right course of action. Thus, it becomes part of their core being.

They would report, then, that communicating their passion for church planting would be

a key factor in their efforts to successfully cast vision for church planting.

1 Bob Roberts, Jr. The Multiplying Church: The New Math for Starting New Churches (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2008). Chapter 2: Kindle Electronic Edition, Location 1516-23.

64

Hypothesis 2

The expectation was to find that this hypothesis is true. It was predicted that

senior pastors who have successfully planted churches have not only studied the

theological reasons for church planting but have communicated them to their respective

congregations. This second hypothesis stated: Selected Senior Pastors of Church Planting

Churches will Identify the Communication of Theological Rationale as a Key Factor in

Casting Vision for a New Church Plant.

In seeking to discover the nature of this theological rationale, it was believed

that the kingdom of God would emerge as a dominant theme. While the results of the

congregation’s ability to understand the theological themes presented to them lies outside

the realm of this study, the selected senior pastors would identify this type of

communication as part of the vision-casting package for a new church plant. We expected

this to come in the form of sermons, seminars, blogs, and other forms of verbal and

written communication.

Hypothesis 3

The expectation was to find this final hypothesis to be true. It stated: Selected

Senior Pastors in Church Planting Churches will Identify the Communication of

Willingness to Sacrifice Resources as a Key Factor in Casting Vision for a New Church

Plant. It was believed, therefore, that the selected senior pastors would express their

willingness to invest large amounts of resources into church planting. This willingness

will have been communicated to their congregations. They would be driven by an

“apostolic” mindset, possessing a vision to church an entire region rather than overseeing

a single church. Because they are aware of the significant costs involved to successfully

launch churches, and because of the fact that more is being required of local churches to

give generously to help new church plants get off the ground, they will have listed this as

an important factor in casting vision to their congregations.

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Case Study 1: Bob Roberts, Jr., NorthWood Community Church

Something is happening at NorthWood Church. To the casual observer, the

contemporary looking facility on the corner of Rufe Snow Drive and North Tarrant Pkwy

in Keller, TX, may appear to be just another of the many mega-churches dotting the

landscape in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. What may not be so obvious, however, is during

the summer of 2010 this suburban church’s lead pastor travelled to Asia to meet with a

high-ranking communist leader with the hope of converting him to Christ.2

Yet by all accounts Bob Roberts is not the typical megachurch pastor. He is

committed to not simply leading one church in a large metropolitan area, but is driven to

see churches multiply all over the Dallas/Fort Worth area and around the world. This

passion for multiplication is expressed in his books, which include The Multiplying

Church: The New Math for Starting New Churches, and Transformation: How Glocal

Churches Transform Lives and the World, and Glocalization: How Followers of Jesus

Engage a Flat World.

I observed, from time spent with him, that Roberts possesses what Jim

Collins’ refers to as the paradoxical qualities that make up the Level 5 Leader: personal

humility and professional will.3 By training and equipping other leaders to plant churches

by the Holy Spirit’s leading, he is making it very clear that it is not about him or

NorthWood. At the same time, he is an incredibly intense person who exhibits a singular

focus on proclaiming the kingdom.

It was clear that his passion is not merely church planting, but engaging the

various cultures of the world with the gospel. For example, on November 11-13, 2010,

NorthWood hosted the Global Faith Forum. This event, according to its website, is for

2 Brian Hook, interview by author, Dallas, TX (July 22, 2010).

3 Jim Collins, Good to Great and the Social Sectors: A Monograph to Accompany Good to Great (New York: Harper-Collins, 2005), 12.

66

the purpose of having “a conversation with other faiths” rather than a “conversation about

other faiths.”4 Some of the speakers include His Royal Highness Prince Turki bin Faisal

Al Saud, former Saudi General Intelligence Directorate, His Excellency Le Cong Phung,

Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam to

the United States, and Al Weiss, President of Walt Disney World.5

The event, however, is just another example of Roberts’ passion to reach

nonbelievers and an expression of his apostolic giftedness. It was clear throughout the

interview that I was speaking with a man who was consistent in his responses and deeply

believed in what he was saying. His charismatic personality also helped to explain his

success over the years. As Bass writes, “Attaining charisma in the eyes of one’s

employees is central to succeeding as a transformational leader.”6 In this case

“employees” would also refer to the congregation who has been inspired by his message.

History of NorthWood Church

The DNA for church multiplication was born out of Roberts’ own journey. As

the founding pastor of NorthWood Church, he spent the first few years frustrated by its

growth. In a story that will be discussed below, Roberts believed that God was leading

him to not simply grow a large church but to plant as many churches as possible. Today

the church’s attendance is about 2,500 people and is scheduled to plant 30 churches this

year alone.7 Since the vision to plant churches was established, NorthWood has been

4 “Global Faith Forum,” www.globalfaithforum.org (accessed January 6, 2011).

5 Ibid.

6 Bernard M. Bass, “From Transactional to Transformational Leadership: Learning to Share the Vision,” Organizational Dynamics, 1990, 21.

7 Brian Hook, interview by author, Dallas, TX (September 28, 2010).

67

involved in planting 130 churches. On any given Sunday, the combined attendance of

NorthWood and the churches it has planted would be at least 20,000.8

Roberts sees this church planting DNA existing even before the founding of

NorthWood. In The Multiplying Church, he traces the “family tree” of NorthWood. The

church’s “parent” was North Richland Hills Baptist Church. “NRHBC” was founded in

1956, nearly 30 years prior by the aptly named Richland Hills Baptist Church. “RHBC”

was sponsored by Birdville Baptist Church in 1953, just three years prior. The oldest

“relative” Roberts found was the church that sponsored Birdville in 1856, called

Lonesome Dove Church. In fact, he notes that the church’s name was the inspiration for

the Western TV series, Lonesome Dove.9

To Roberts, this family tree is important and provides a historical link to the

work NorthWood is involved with today.10 He writes, “This lesson in NorthWood’s

history demonstrates the biggest benefit of all. Church multiplication allows a church to

pass on its DNA.”11

Results: Three Images that Make the Difference

The results of the interviews surfaced three “images” that corresponded to

each of the stated hypotheses. These images will serve to provide a pathway for leaders

who seek to effectively cast vision for a new church plant. Keeping in mind that our

working definition of vision casting is “images that inspire action,” the following

represent pictures that can be easily grasped. They are each transitional in nature, (i.e.,

from one thing to another). Thus, not only were each of the hypotheses proven true

8 Bob Roberts, interview by author, Keller, TX (September 27, 2010).

9 Roberts, Jr. The Multiplying Church, Chapter 3, Location 1097-1111.

10 Ibid.

11 Ibid.

68

through the case study interviews and supporting material, but by way of application each

of them required a transformation in the heart of the leader in order to achieve their

purpose. In other words, when it comes to casting a vision for church planting as

discovered in this case, the leader must portray several images, which are arranged below

according to each one of the hypotheses.

Results of Hypothesis 1

This section will reveal the results of the first hypothesis, which stated:

Selected Senior Pastors in Church Planting Churches will Identify the Communication of

Strong Personal Conviction as a Key Factor in Casting Vision for a New Church Plant.

The image captured, as a result of this part of the study, could be best described this way:

The Transition From a “Living Legend” to a “Cross-Bearing Disciple.”

In the beginning of the interview with Brian Hook, I expected him to affirm

the sincerity of Robert’s commitment to church planting. Knowing somewhat in advance

that Roberts believed in church planting, I wanted Hook to explain how he communicated

that strong personal conviction to the people of NorthWood.

His response, however, took my question further than I had anticipated. He

said that not only with Roberts but other church planting pastors, “at some point [they]

have died to themselves; died to being the biggest church in the city.”12 This word death

was very important to Hook in describing leaders like Roberts. It represented a death to

personal fame, and a death to worldly ideas of success, such as having the biggest

building and leading the largest congregation. It is reminiscent of Jesus’ call to his

disciples: “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross

12 Brian Hook, interview by author, Dallas, TX (July 22, 2010).

69

and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for

my sake will find it” (Matt 16:24-25).

Hook then related a story that Roberts has shared on multiple occasions and

written about in his books. In fact, it is a story that he shares several times a year to his

congregation. In 1992, after being frustrated with unrealized expectations of his church

plant, Roberts sat on his back porch, angry with God. At that point he recalls God

speaking to him, asking him a question that would change the course of his life: “When is

Jesus going to be enough?”13

Thus, developing a strong personal conviction for church planting was not just

something Roberts read out of a book, but it came as a result of his own walk with God.

When I asked him about how this experience as well as his walk with God in general

formed his church planting convictions, he responded:

It’s the core of it. I mean, I was trying to grow a church as big as I could, as fast as I could, we went through a relocation process, when we did, we pulled out all the stops to contemporize our church, this is years ago, but when that happened, it was out of brokenness, and I shifted, one day I was praying, and I said, ‘God, you know, just, forgive me for being for being more obsessed with my church and my stuff and my kingdom.’ And in the context of that I literally prayed a prayer: ‘Help me God not just try to be the biggest church in the area but to church the area.’14

And yet, if pastors do not think this way, then for Roberts there is no hope for

church plating movements. “One of the reasons we don’t have church planting

movements in America is, two things: Number one, pastors are not committed to them.

They say they are, but they’re really not.”15

13 This question is the title of chapter 4 of Roberts’ book, Transformation.

14 Bob Roberts, interview by author, Keller, TX (September 27, 2010).

15 Ibid.

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Roberts’ 1992 encounter with God, according to Hook, was the catalyst for

the church planting endeavor that he began soon after. Perhaps another form of “death”

came from Hook’s description of Roberts’ desire to be a missionary. Hook recalled that

Roberts’ wife had some health issues that prevented them from going out full time to the

mission field. But it was this apparent barrier that led him to ask the second question,

“Why can’t the whole church be the missionary?”16

So, according to Hook, the first question launched the church planting

initiative and the second question launched the “glocal” initiative. “Glocal” is the word

that Roberts has used to link the local church to mission on a global scale.17 The point is,

however, both of these ideas came to Roberts in a situation that involved dying to his

own ambition in some way.

In The Multiplying Church, Roberts writes, “Pastors who raise up other

pastors and plant churches out of their church are generally pastors who have been

broken. This brokenness generally results from a failure to achieve their own dreams as

opposed to God’s.”18

So how was all of this communicated to the church? Roberts responded:

First of all, I just shared the story of what [happened]. That’s the first thing. Here, God laid this on my heart, guys, you know, we don’t need to worry about being the biggest church in the area. We need to be concerned about multiplying the church in the area. What does that look like? And so first I began to tell the story of what God was saying to me and we began to pray and God had a guy who was felt led to start a church out in our area he stopped by when I was praying through all of this.19

16 This is the title of chapter 6 in Roberts’ book, Transformation.

17 Bob Roberts, Glocalization: How Followers of Jesus Engage a Flat World (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2007), Kindle Electronic Edition: Chapter 1, Location 184-203.

18 Roberts, The Multiplying Church, Chapter 2, Location 1516-23.

19 Bob Roberts, interview by author, Keller, TX (September 27, 2010).

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What surprised me was how quickly Roberts connected the story of his own

journey to the subsequent reality of a church planter being brought to the church to send

out. It was as if the telling of the story itself laid the groundwork for the first planter to

arrive.

The Importance of Stories and Symbols

During the course of the interview I asked Roberts if there was one particular

story that perhaps would have defined the “ethos” of the church. He replied, “There’s not

one. There’s many.”20 He then went on to describe story after story of men NorthWood

had mentored and sent out to plant. In fact, one of the illustrations in his sermon during

the most recent Sunday service was of another leader’s decision to follow God’s call and

start a new church.

I was able to see this storytelling firsthand. On July 25, 2010, I attended a

Sunday morning service at NorthWood. At the end of the service they welcomed a young

man up who had been in leadership in their student ministries department. He was

brought up in front of the congregation in order to be “sent out” to one of NorthWood’s

church plants in Colorado. This was so he could receive further training. Then, when they

feel he is ready, he will return to Keller and begin the process of planting his own church

out of NorthWood.21

As part of this “commissioning” during the service there was a little ceremony

performed to demonstrate the gravity of the situation. This ceremony is known as the

telling of the legend of St. Christopher, and has become almost a “ritual” that the

20 Bob Roberts, interview by author, Keller, TX (September 27, 2010).

21 Tim Jacobs, Field Notes, Keller, TX (July 25, 2010).

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congregation has participated in on numerous occasions. Roberts writes about it in The

Multiplying Church:

When the planters leave at the end of their internship, we have a special service for them. I call on a child or a teenager form the service to tell the group of the legend of St. Christopher (as best they can!). The legend that they are all familiar with goes like this: Late in the day a little boy persistently asked an old man to help him cross the river. Even though the old man had just crossed over to the other side, the boy pleaded with him to return so that he could get home to his parents. The old man finally agreed to help him cross back over, although he was very tired from having just crossed himself.

Halfway there, he was exhausted and told the child, ‘I feel like I’m carrying the weight of the world when I carry you!’

When the old man eventually made his way to the other side, the little boy reached up and hugged the old man around the neck and said, “Thank you, Christopher—you are a saint!”

Smiling, the old man reciprocated the hug and replied, ‘Now, hurry home, Jesus. Joseph and Mary are waiting.’

The name Christopher means ‘Christ bearer or carrier’—which to me is a reminder to them that these church planters have been called to carry the good news of Jesus around the world in a similar fashion.22

Roberts gives an assessment of the value this has to the congregation: “it’s

impossible to minimize the profound effect this ceremony has on a young child growing

up at NorthWood. They see it twice a year, every year, and it leaves a powerful

impression.”23

Even with all these stories and symbols, Hook is still convinced that they do

not tell enough of them.24 Kouzes and Posner encourage leaders to master the “ancient art

of storytelling.” These stories should come from “critical moments” in the leader’s life

and serve as a primary way to build credibility.25

22 Roberts, The Multiplying Church, Chapter 3, Location 1155-1165.

23 Ibid., Location 1165-1175.

24 Brian Hook, interview by author, Dallas, TX (July 22, 2010).

25 James Kouzes and Barry Posner, Credibility: How Leaders Gain and Lose It, Why People Demand It (San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass, 2003), 197.

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Credibility

The other aspect of this hypothesis is the ability of the pastor to communicate

to the congregation that he authentically believes what he says he believes. When I

visited the campus of NorthWood church, I noticed that every piece of artwork hanging

on the wall in the office area was a painting of a scene in Vietnam, perhaps by the same

painter.26 There was a wholeness and consistency about their vision that was made

visible, hanging on the walls where the pastors and staff conduct their daily duties.

According to Hook, Roberts spends about 50% of his time outside of NorthWood, often

traveling back and forth to Vietnam. It is impossible to hang around the church for very

long without knowing the intensity of commitment to the nation of Vietnam. Malphurs

cites “personal dedication of the leader to the cause” as a key factor of establishing

credibility and thus effectively communicating the vision.27

Credibility was cited by Roberts during the interview as vital to vision casting.

Given the fact that our definition of vision casting is images that inspire action, it seemed

that the congregation needed to see the image of a leader who really believed this was the

right course of action. At one point during the interview, I made a comment to Roberts

about selling the statement of church multiplication so that they would get behind it. He

then corrected me. Referring to himself, he said, “Not the statement. They saw the life,

they saw the consistency. Credibility equals, one of my mentors says, credibility equals

time plus results plus character… So, that becomes the DNA of your church.”28

26 Tim Jacobs, Field Notes, Keller, TX (September 27, 2010).

27 Aubrey Malphurs, Developing a Vision for Ministry (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1999), 90.

28 Bob Roberts, interview by author, Keller, TX (September 27, 2010).

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Results of Hypothesis 2

This next section deals with whether or not the senior pastor would

theologically support church planting in casting vision to a congregation for a new church

plant. The second hypothesis was stated this way: Selected Senior Pastors of Church

Planting Churches will Identify the Communication of Theological Rationale as a Key

Factor in Casting Vision for a New Church Plant. Keeping with the theme of images that

emerged from this study, the image from this part of the study can be articulated this

way: Transitioning from “The Pastor of a Church” to “An Apostle of the Kingdom.” As

was mentioned in chapter 2, Gailyn Van Rheenen challenges the pastor to be both a

theologian and practitioner, using what he called the “missional helix” to describe the

relationship between theology and practice when it comes to church planting. This

spiraling concept begins with “theologies, such as Missio Dei, the kingdom of God…”29

The “missional helix” would describe very well how Roberts approaches

church planting. It is important to note that throughout this part of the interview, he

resisted the concept of thinking too theologically about church planting. Rather, he

preferred to be thought of as possessing a biblical approach. For example, he often

brought up a desire to have a high fidelity to the book of Acts as a template for church

planting as opposed to some lofty theological principle. He was very adamant that his

was a practical approach. Even so, based on his responses in our interview it is likely that

Van Rheenen would see Roberts as both a theologian and a practitioner, especially in

light of his convictions of how a church should be planted:

There’s a big shift of people that are planting churches thirty-five and below. Here’s what they’re doing: The guys that think more old school are thinking more in terms of how am I going to go in and get my church up and going? And you get

29 Bob Roberts, interview by author, Keller, TX (September 27, 2010).

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younger guys, and the question they’re asking is, ‘How do we engage our city?’ And if you engage your city you’re going to get a church.30

Apostolic Identity

This approach is fundamentally a theological one, and brings up yet another

aspect of Roberts’ profile of the role a pastor of a reproducing church should play. The

essence of it is wrapped up in the term apostle. To use this term of oneself conveys a

sense of self-understanding about both one’s identity and their consequent actions.

The identity aspect of this term apostleship will be covered under this

hypothesis and the action aspect will be covered in hypothesis 3. As was mentioned in

chapter 2, this term “apostle” has gained a lot of attention in recent years. Most of the

literature seems to define it as someone who has a vision beyond just one local church. In

fact, at the outset of the interview Roberts seemed obsessed with the word. He wanted to

make sure that I understood it, and defined it this way: “I think, I mean, not in a

charismatic sense, but in an influence beyond your own local church. I think most

churches today are driven by the pastor-teacher versus apostolic, more prophetic type

leadership.”31

Stetzer and Putman define an apostle as one who is “authoritatively sent.”32

Hook identified an apostle as “someone who sees the blueprint.”33 In fact, he went on to

describe a leader who is more concerned about the big picture, and he identified Roberts

as such a person, one who is going to naturally be drawn to taking the gospel to places it

has not been.

30 Bob Roberts, interview by author, Keller, TX (Setpember 27, 2010).

31 Ibid.

32 Ed Stetzer and David Putman, Breaking the Missional Code (Nashville, TN: Broadman and Holman Publishers, 2006), 71.

33 Brian Hook, interview by author, Dallas, TX (July 22, 2010).

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How does this understanding get communicated to the church in terms of

vision casting for church planting? In The Multiplying Church, Roberts writes, “I tell

NorthWood frequently, as I did this past Sunday as we commissioned a young couple to

plant, ‘It isn’t about us and our church but about Jesus and his church – and his church is

far bigger than this one single church.’”34 He laments the fact that while he believes there

are many pastors who have an apostolic gifting, many of them “don’t know what to do

with it.”35

Kingdom Mindset

Because an apostle, at least in Roberts’ mind, thinks and acts outside of the

church, it would make sense that closely related to the idea of an apostle is the concept of

the kingdom. In fact, as Hook described an apostle, he basically equated the idea of a

blueprint with having a “kingdom mindset.”36 In fact, the word “kingdom” was used

repeatedly throughout the interviews with both men, and it appeared as though the

theological understanding of the word was what was driving the church planting passion.

When asked how Roberts would define “kingdom,” Hook replied simply,

“Jesus in action.”37 In other words, wherever Jesus is, that is where the kingdom is. This

understanding is what facilitates their global perspective and rules out an emphasis on

their church alone.

34 Roberts, The Multiplying Church, Chapter 2, Location 283-90.

35 Ibid.

36 Brian Hook, interview by author, Dallas, TX (July 22, 2010).

37 Brian Hook, interview by author, Dallas, TX (July 22, 2010).

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Again, Roberts credits brokenness to even being able to recognize the

kingdom. He writes, “If the pastor allows [brokenness] to drive him close to God,

invariably that pastor will discover the kingdom.”38

The kingdom concept also finds its way into NorthWood’s church planter

training curriculum. Labeled “Turbo Training,” the first bullet point listed is “Kingdom –

What’s the difference between a ‘church framework’ and a ‘Kingdom Framework’? How

do you plant a church based on Kingdom principles and not ‘church’ principles?”39

Clearly there is the desire to not confuse the kingdom with the church, which is consistent

with the literature discussed in chapter 2.

But again, how is this kingdom concept communicated to the church? When

asked if the kingdom is talked about frequently at NorthWood, Roberts responded: “Oh

gosh, yeah. I mean, we have all kinds of little sayings: kingdom in, kingdom out. You

know, what is it, the kingdom has to first transform us but as the kingdom is transforming

us, it doesn’t stop, it oozes out, its going to multiply itself.”40

Kingdom In and Kingdom Out is a concept that Roberts has taught to his

church. He explains it further in Transformation: “The kingdom has come into the life of

the believer through the indwelling Holy Spirit – Kingdom In. The believer, therefore,

goes out into his or her community to engage the world, taking the kingdom with them –

Kingdom Out.”41 Below is an illustration of this concept:

38 Roberts, The Multiplying Church, Chapter 2: Location 1516-23.

39 Church Planting Handout material given by Brian Hook during interview conducted on July 22, 2010.

40 Bob Roberts, interview by author, Keller, TX (September 27, 2010).

41 Bob Roberts, Jr., Transformation: How Glocal Churches Transform Lives and the World (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2006), 47.

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Figure 1. Kingdom In, Kingdom Out

Roberts compares the merits of a kingdom concept with the traditional

understanding of “missions” by many churches today:

The implication [of the kingdom] throughout Scripture is huge. Sadly, what we have done to ‘missions’ is to make it only the gospel of proclamation regarding accepting Jesus as Savior. While that is definitely true, we stop much too short. Accepting Jesus as Savior is only the beginning of walking in the kingdom and doing his will; it is not the ultimate aim. God’s kingdom, his perfect reign and rule, is the ultimate aim. That is, the glory of God.42

While it was clear that Roberts has been motivated to church plant, not

because it is the latest fad or trend, but because his understanding of apostolic leadership

and the kingdom, I still wanted to know how deeply that had transferred to the

congregation at large. When asked if he felt the congregation could articulate

theologically why NorthWood plants churches, he responded:

I do. I think if you were to ask them to biblically or theologically state that you’d make them nervous, you’d scare them, you know, but if you were to say, why do you guys do that biblically, I think most of them would say, it’s the church that should be engaging the community as it was in Acts. They would say

42 Roberts, Glocalization, Location 575-598.

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that the natural response of any disciple is to multiply. And the place of gathering of the disciples is the church.43

It is clear from his writings however, that he teaches these concepts to his

church: “I constantly remind our people that they have more of a platform to witness and

change the culture submerged in the culture than they do outside the culture.”44

Hook basically concurred in his response to the same question: “Yes, the

members that are engaged in our community would say that, (now the attendees may not)

that we are a multiplying church that we plant churches, and that we are engaged locally

and globally.”45

However, I wanted to press a little further on this point. So I asked him of his

impression of the congregation’s theological understanding of NorthWood’s church

planting. When I asked whether or not they could go back to the Scriptures and point to

specific references or theological concepts, he indicated that they probably could not.

Incidentally, the reason for this question was not to purposely expose any weakness in

NorthWood’s approach. On the contrary, it was because of the incredible success of

NorthWood’s church planting endeavors that my interest was piqued with regards to how

concerned its leaders were that the congregation members themselves could make a

biblical and/or theological case for church planting. As will be shown in the results of

hypothesis 3, Roberts is committed to placing the congregation at the center of the church

multiplication effort.

In addition to his comments about the kingdom, I found Roberts to be

extremely articulate regarding his ecclesiology. He spoke with great confidence about

what the church is supposed to be. In fact, at one point during the interview he expressed

43 Roberts, Glocalization, Location 575-598.

44 Roberts, Transformation, 48.

45 Brian Hook, interview by author, Dallas, TX (July 22, 2010).

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once again his unease about the frequent use of the word “theological” in my questions.

Then, as he was explaining his convictions about how churches should be planted and

expounding on his understanding of the nature of the church and its role in the kingdom,

he paused and said, “I guess that is theology when you think about it.”46

It appears that, at least in this case, the vision that oozes from Roberts seems

to find its core in a very sophisticated theological approach to church planting. In his

mind, what gets the job done is not someone who sees himself as the pastor of a church,

but rather an apostle, a sent one, of the kingdom that is coming and now here. All of this

led to a thought: if a comprehensive church planting vision is to be cast to a congregation

that produces results similar to those happening at NorthWood, it might behoove the

senior pastor to go a little further than the very true but perhaps one-dimensional church

planting maxim: “the single most effective evangelistic method under heaven is planting

new churches.”47

Results of Hypothesis 3

The final area I was concerned with was the willingness of the pastor to

sacrifice resources that could have been used for the mother church in order to plant new

churches. This third hypothesis stated: Selected Senior Pastors in Church Planting

Churches will Identify the Communication of Willingness to Sacrifice Resources as a Key

Factor in Casting Vision for a New Church Plant. The last image, therefore, that emerged

from this study can be expressed this way: Transition from “Cautious Talker” to

“Radical Risk-Taker.”

46 Bob Roberts, interview by author, Keller, TX (September 27, 2010).

47 C. Peter Wagner, Church Planting for a Greater Harvest (Ventura, CA: Regal Books, 1990), 11. This statement might seem critical of Wagner but that is not the intent. Rather, it is critical of those who have developed their entire church planting apologetic around his now famous sentence.

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Roberts writes, “Pastors who raise up other pastors and plant churches out of

their church are generally pastors who love to give away everything!”48 NorthWood has

made great investments in planters and in church planting ventures over the years. Hook

reported that 20% of their entire church budget goes to missions. In 2009 they planted

eight or nine churches, and as has been mentioned, they are on track to plant 30 in 2010.49

Apostolic Action

The apostolic identity discussed in hypothesis 2 has helped Roberts to align

himself with kingdom priorities, over and above the demands of his local church. How

does this apostolic identity express itself in action? One example that Hook brought up

was the fact that several days after our first interview Roberts would be traveling to Asia

in order to meet with a non-Christian communist leader. His main purpose for meeting

with him is to be a witness to him and hopefully convert him to Christ.

Hook emphasized that, more than just reaching one lost person with the

gospel, the conversion of a leader of such stature might help to not only alleviate the

persecution of Christians but could open the door for the church to flourish in that

country. Again, there is an apostolic purpose behind Roberts’ actions.

Restructuring the Entire Church to a Cell Group Model

Both Roberts and Hook indicated that the leadership is pushing the envelope

when it comes to the commitment to multiplication at NorthWood. For them this means a

full-scale transition from a home group structure to a cell group structure. Hook reports

that NorthWood’s leadership is dissatisfied with the current state of their small groups

ministry. Many of them are nothing more than “chips and salsa” with Bible study and

48 Roberts, The Multiplying Church, Chapter 2, Location 1530-37.

49 Brian Hook, interview by author, Keller, TX (September 28, 2010).

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some fellowship.50 This is not good enough for them. In fact, he mentioned that while it

was painful for them, they recently let go of their small groups pastor who had been at the

church for a number of years. This ruffled some feathers among the congregation and a

few people left the church because of it.

However, they are seeking to replace their current small groups with cell

groups. The main difference between them is that cell groups are designed to multiply.

But this type of sweeping change is not without its risks. In fact, Hook says this strategy

is so radical that it places the entire church on the line in order to accomplish the mission.

This is because they are purposely training congregation members to lead what will in

effect be mini-churches that submit to the authority of the church as a whole but have all

the ingredients to strike out on their own if they so choose.51

To date they have trained about 40 couples to be the cell group leaders, but are

planning to train another 40 within the next few months. These leaders will fuel the new

track that NorthWood is laying alongside the existing small groups ministry.

The Goal is Discipleship Over Church Planting

Again, the impetus for this goes back to a commitment to the Great

Commission and a deep desire to see a church planting movement. They believe they are

not effectively making disciples to the fullest extent. Hook says that “true disciples will

multiply”52 and that multiplication is not happening like they believe it should. So they

are “working backwards”53 to put people in an environment where they believe

50 Brian Hook, interview by author, Dallas, TX (July 22, 2010).

51 Ibid.

52 Ibid.

53 Ibid.

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multiplication will be much more likely to happen. His words reflect the heart of Roberts’

vision:

We’ve had to determine in our minds we want to make good disciples, better disciples, than what we’re doing and if we make the kind of disciples in the Bible, then this city should have been changed 25 years ago, but it’s not. This city is not any better off than it was, so, if the answer is church planting well, then this city should be really changed because we made a lot of churches so the question is what kind of disciples are we making, you know?54

Because Roberts and the leadership have been heavily influenced by the

movements documented in David Garrison’s Church Planting Movements, they believe

that church planting as is done in other parts of the world carries a great deal of promise

for the United States. Roberts was recently asked in another interview about what other

concepts should be included in successful church planting. He responded by saying, “I

would simply say take Garrison’s book and apply it to America. No one is doing that.”55

He is willing to try, even though he is not even convinced himself that it will

work:

So, right now what we’re doing is, you’ll have to ask me two years from now, did it work? Our church is moving toward a cell model. And I know that doesn’t work in America. But I don’t know of a single church around the world that isn’t exploding that doesn’t use cell model and use that for church planting. But what happens is, the people in the pew become the church planters.56

The last line perhaps gets to the heart of Roberts’ vision: the people become

the church planters. If that ends up being true, he will be “giving away” a lot of people!

Again, it takes the idea of simply communicating a desire to release resources to a whole

new level. The bottom line is this: Roberts is so passionate about seeing new churches

54 Brian Hook, interview by author, Keller, TX (September 28, 2010).

55 Bob Roberts, interview by Dwight Nash, Keller, TX (April 6, 2010).

56 Bob Roberts, interview by author, Keller, TX (September 27, 2010).

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planted that he has structured the church in such a way so that they must release

resources.

Roberts and Hook both noted that NorthWood is moving away from the

“hiving off” method of church planting. Roberts argues that a church can plant a few

churches that way, but it is not feasible to plant the 30 churches they will plant this year

using that method. Now, any potential church planter is welcome to come to NorthWood,

and “if you want to come here as a planter and start a small group and multiply that small

group, everybody you multiply is yours. Take ‘em.”57

Hard Choices with Limited Resources

The willingness to sacrifice resources for church planting has been

particularly challenging for them in the midst of a sluggish economy. Roberts explained

that just before our interview he had completed a video message to the church explaining

the current financial situation to the congregation. They are faced with the option of

cutting off their funding to new churches to resource ministry areas at NorthWood. But,

to date, they are holding firm in keeping their focus on church planting. In fact, Hook

said that the Sunday following our interview they would be discontinuing their weekly

bulletin so they could keep monies directed outside.58 Many people outside the area

would not understand the cultural significance of a Baptist church in the Dallas/FT.

Worth area doing away with their Sunday bulletin, but according to Hook it will

definitely send a clear message about priorities.

In a more general sense this priority on church planting could be observed

simply by being on their church campus. While the building is a classy, contemporary

57 Bob Roberts, interview by author, Keller, TX (September 27, 2010).

58 Brian Hook, interview by author, Dallas, TX (September 28, 2010).

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structure that fits the surrounding area very nicely, as one looks closely it is clear that the

building is not the focus. I had the sense, upon noticing certain areas that needed some

touch up paint, or viewing spaces that were unfurnished, that the building is more of a

“headquarters” as opposed to a shrine, as many churches can easily become.59

I wanted to really make sure that Roberts identified a relationship between

sacrificing resources and successfully casting a church planting vision. Below is a

transcript of part of our conversation:

JACOBS: Do you think a pastor can successfully cast a church planting vision to his congregation if he is not willing to release finances, people, or both?

ROBERTS: It’s not going to happen. It just… JACOBS: Have you seen examples of that? Do you know of examples? ROBERTS: I just don’t know of anyone. I mean, who starts churches that

doesn’t let go of stuff? JACOBS: So there really is, maybe, in your mind, a correlation between, you

know, a guy that’s willing to plant and a guy that’s willing to let it go? ROBERTS: I think you have to. If you don’t… here’s what we want. We want

our pie and eat it too. And I think the big challenge we’ve got is, how do we redefine our metrics? That goes back to being the biggest church in the area or churching the area. And every time, I promise you, the metrics of churching the area are far more strategic than the biggest church in the area.60

Hook sees Roberts as someone who practices what he preaches when it comes

to sacrificing resources: “He’s not going to call us to do something he’s not willing to

model not only his own life but also in the life of the church. I don’t know how you

59 Field Notes, Keller, TX (September 28, 2010).

60 Bob Roberts, interview by author, Keller, TX (September 27, 2010).

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would be able to do that. I’ve seen churches that have tried to be church planting

churches but aren’t willing to make the sacrifices, and it doesn’t work.”61

The staff at Northwood has also had to make personal sacrifices to keep

church planting a priority, again given the current economic climate. For example, none

of the staff took raises this year. Hook has not had a raise since 2008. They have had

plans for several years to build a new children’s building that has been put on hold. In

this suburban community, a new building like that would be a major attraction for their

local ministry. Even so, they are concerned that moving forward with a building like that

might merely lure the many “church consumers” who are around for a few years but

never connect with the ministry in any significant way.

While the children’s building has been shelved for now, they have

communicated to the congregation that they are actually giving more to church planting.

Hook added, “When the budget’s not going up but you look at planting going up, that’s

major. To me, money speaks volumes.”62 While he has gone without a raise, he also says

that Roberts has gone to bat for him to keep his salary from being cut because of his

involvement with church planting.

It is hard to overstate the riskiness this course of action entails. Bill Easum

and William Tenney-Brittain write in opening of their 2010 book Ministry in Hard

Times,

As of this writing, we are looking to be in one of the worst years since the Great Depression. Savings and pensions were cut in half. Major banks and businesses failed. More than one and a half million jobs have been lost, with no end in sight. Trillions of dollars in government bailouts have been doled out. And

61 Brian Hook, interview by author, Keller, TX (September 28, 2010).

62 Ibid.

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there’s an overall lack of confidence in governments around the world. Everyone is experiencing economic shock.63

These seasoned, sought after church consultants advise a “Hard Times Budget

Formula” that calls for increases in three ministry areas: worship, children’s and

preaching.64 Those categories are the growth engines of most churches in the United

States because they mostly drive the Sunday morning experience. In light of this, they

favor cutting “office personnel, missions, youth program, and nonessential ministries.”65

The commitment to church planting, through the mechanism of discipleship

and multiplication, has driven NorthWood to throw a certain amount of caution to the

wind in the midst of a challenging economy.

A New Metric

As mentioned in the transcription above, Roberts justifies his resource

allocation strategy by suggesting a new metric for what constitutes “success” as a church.

Stetzer and Bird include NorthWood’s “scorecard” that they use to determine what this

success looks like for their church: 1. Church multiplication. 2. Community development. 3. Global engagement.66

Notice how each one of these “metrics” are concerned with issues outside of

the church. This is different from the typical set of metrics that include church

attendance, giving, and home group participation. Thus, the transformative image, from

63 William Easum and William Tenney-Brittain, Ministry in Hard Times (Nashville, TN: Abington Press, 2010), Kindle Electronic Edition: Introduction, Location 18-20.

64 Ibid., Chapter 3, Location. 325-329.

65 Ibid.

66 Ed Stetzer and Warren Bird, Viral Churches: Helping Church Planters Become Movement Makers (San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass, 2010), Kindle Electronic Edition: Chapter 12, Location 2623-2636.

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cautious talker to radical risk-taker, is clearly demonstrated through the data that has

been collected. Perhaps this information presented in this case study can serve to raise the

temperature on the many well-intentioned pastors who need to seriously consider how

they might become men who truly inspire action.

This case study validated all three of the hypotheses and carried them to a

level that was not expected at the outset of this research. There is much to be learned

from NorthWood and their continuing efforts, for example, to take the biblical principles

that are working in Asia and apply them to a Western context. It is inspiring to see what

has emerged thus far out of a God-given vision to a passionate leader who is seeking the

kingdom.

Case Study 2: Mark Hopper

Mark Hopper’s story is one that needs to be told. While its possible to get

inspired by stories of pastors with record numbers of church attendance and rapid

multiplication, it is almost more challenging to see what is possible when someone who

isn’t a “household name” casts a clear vision, endures the challenges, and succeeds.

Mark’s story is one that is possible for many pastors to replicate who have the

determination to see a God-given dream come true.

I took the short flight from Phoenix, AZ, to Ontario, CA, to spend the day

interviewing Hopper on the campus of EV Free Diamond Bar, a suburban community

outside of Los Angeles. After meeting with him I made my way over to the rented office

building of VantagePoint, EV Free Diamond Bar’s daughter church.

Upon my arrival Hopper warmly welcomed me and was eager to talk about

their church planting experience. As we got settled, he immediately pulled out a map of

the area that encompassed VantagePoint. Right away he spoke enthusiastically about the

opportunity that their church had seized in planting in that community. He showed me the

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newly incorporated city of Eastvale, just over the county line in Riverside County, CA.

What was once farmland is a fast growing suburban community just east of Chino Hills,

nearby the cities of Corona and Norco.

The mother church in Diamond Bar is located on only 2.5 acres. While it had

been kept up nicely and had a great location right off the 57 Freeway, it was obvious that

the building had been around for a while. In fact, it seemed from the interview that the

facility itself reflected the general tenor of the church: well established, mature, and

somewhat traditional. According to Hopper, this is also somewhat a reflection of the

community. Over the past few generations, Diamond Bar has become more of a home for

“empty nesters,” as many of their adult children have moved out to newer communities

such as Eastvale. EV Free Diamond Bar has reflected this maturing dynamic, which was

part of the motivation for the church plant.67

Hopper’s vision to birth a new church proved to be incredibly successful by

anyone’s standards. This church of roughly 500 in attendance has reproduced a new

church that has grown to 600-700 in weekly attendance in under three years. Over 200

people have come to know Jesus at VantagePoint, and through the generosity of the

mother church VantagePoint now has $650,000 in seed money with which to buy land for

their future home.68 The interview was driven by the questions that arose from the

hypotheses, and the results are arranged in the same way.

Result of Hypothesis 1

This case study revealed the manifestation of a church planting dream that

remained dormant in the heart of a leader but eventually awakened with vigorous resolve.

67 Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA (October 8, 2010).

68 Mark Lee, interview by author, Chino, CA (October 8, 2010).

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The first hypothesis in this study stated: Selected Senior Pastors in Church Planting

Churches will Identify the Communication of Strong Personal Conviction as a Key

Factor in Casting Vision for a New Church Plant.

The Fulfillment of a 30-year Dream that Would Not Let Go

While he has never personally planted a church, Hopper wrote his master’s

thesis for his Th.M. at Dallas Theological Seminary on church planting. After growing up

in Phoenix, AZ, and then graduating from seminary, he led a small Conservative Baptist

church in Tucson, AZ. Looking back on his experience in Tucson he regrets that the

church never planted. He remembers sensing the opportunity, as six families moved to

the north side of town where rapid growth was taking place at the time. But, as he says,

they “hesitated.”69 Because of that hesitation, they missed the chance.

In 1988, Hopper became the Senior Pastor of Evangelical Free Church of

Diamond Bar. As the consummate shepherd, he has led the church faithfully over the last

twenty-two years.

However, around 2002 Hopper began noticing that a growing number of

young families were beginning to move over the foothills into the area that was being

known as Eastvale. While it is only about a 25-minute drive, just one main arterial road

connects the church with this new community, cutting through the steep foothills that

mark the border of Los Angeles and San Bernardino Counties and presenting somewhat

of a natural barrier. As both Hopper and Lee noted, many young families found they

could purchase a 4,000 square foot home in Eastvale for half the price of one in Diamond

Bar. This was one of the driving forces behind the rapid development of this new

community, and it signaled to Hopper that the time to plant had finally come. Not

69 Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA (October 8, 2010).

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wanting to miss another opportunity, Hopper began laying the groundwork for a new

church plant. He describes thinking this way:

The reason in my mind we started that church, one of the reasons was, it was pretty unlikely that new people moving out there would very effectively invite people to drive 20 miles to come here. Instead, let’s start a new church out there so people can invite people that its five minutes or less to the new church. So that’s what made sense. If our heart is to see a new community reached the likelihood of us reaching it from here, the size we are, the kind of church we are, the, we’re not a regional church of the valley, like they have a couple of giant ones in Phoenix. So it made sense. So they’re reaching people, I always say, we could never reach.70

This purpose of this study has been to study what key communication factors

senior pastors identify when casting vision for a new church plant. What surfaced from

the research on Mark Hopper and the story of EV Free Diamond Bar planting their first

church was that church planting had been a dream in his heart that was 30 years in the

making. If the dream had not been there, the church plant never would have happened.

Lee recalls the culture of the church at the time of the plant: “Mark definitely

was the primary force behind everything. Nobody even really cared. Nobody cared.

Nobody even wanted to. [Church planting] wasn’t even on the radar map.”71 The

“nobody” included Lee himself.

Lee had been hired as the Adult Ministries Pastor at the church. Young,

articulate, and clearly talented, there were many in this well established church that saw

him as the future of EV Free Diamond Bar. At the outset he certainly had no plans

himself to be the church planter. In fact, when Hopper first approached him with the idea,

Lee dismissed it.

70 Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA (October 8, 2010).

71 Mark Lee, interview by author, Chino, CA (October 8, 2010).

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The Spirit of God Working in the Heart of a Leader

But there was one factor Lee observed which proved to be critical for the

manifestation of this new church. It was that Hopper had a “vision that got a hold of him

and wouldn’t let go.”72 In contrast to the outgoing, charismatic nature of many catalytic

senior pastors, Hopper’s vision had the resolve of an aircraft carrier that just could not be

steered any other direction. Even in the face of rather severe opposition, this gentle

shepherd just kept moving forward and would not take no for an answer.

This is where, once again, Jim Collins work in Good to Great can be applied.

It is not necessary to be egocentric or larger than life by nature in order to be a Level 5

leader.73 That can end up having negative consequences over time. Rather, what Collins

calls a “compelling modesty” tends to characterize the Level 5 Leader.74 Lee noted that

Hopper is neither aggressive nor a visionary by nature. Yet he seemed awestruck even

during the interview at what Collins might call Hopper’s “unwavering resolve.”75

This is where we can perhaps get one of our most profound insights into the

man himself and into the nature of leadership. One premise of this project is that unless

the senior pastor deeply believes in church planting, it is not going to happen. But it

seems here the opposite is also true: Hopper has believed in church planting for so long

that perhaps one way or the other it had to happen. Lee remembers during this time of

vision casting that Hopper was doing and saying things that were uncharacteristic of him.

For example, this rather non-emotional man would get emotional on the platform on a

Sunday morning as he made his case for church planting. At one point he said he could

72 Mark Lee, interview by author, Chino, CA (October 8, 2010).

73 Jim Collins, Good to Great: Why Some Companies Take the Leap… and Others Don’t (New York: Harper-Collins, 2001), 37.

74 Ibid, 36.

75 Ibid., 30. Mark Lee, interview by author, Chino, CA (October 8, 2010).

93

not wait until they could “plant a flag” on the church plant’s new property.76 These

images of conquest, according to Lee, were “not Mark.”77 Something came alive inside

him, and perhaps that is the lesson.

Similar to Roberts in the first case study, it could be that a certain type of

resolve came over Hopper that can only be attributed to the Holy Spirit moving inside his

heart. Here again it is helpful to have interviewed Mark Lee, because Hopper’s humble

temperament would have prevented some of these insights from being fully made known.

According to Lee, when it came to this church plant, Hopper was willing to risk

everything. While normally a consensus builder, this time the question was not, “Do you

think we should move this direction?” Rather, it was, “How do you think we can get

there?”78

This was also very evident in Hopper’s desire to not merely plant a church,

but to conduct a three-year capital campaign to purchase land for the new church that had

not yet come into existence. This campaign became a “God story” in and of itself, as the

campaign raised more money for an “unborn” church than any other campaign the church

had done for its own buildings.79

The Power of Stories

When I asked Hopper about the “God stories” that have made up the ethos of

the church with regards to church planting, several specifics emerged. He was very

insistent that the picture needed to be painted for the people in order for them to grasp

what it is they are about to do.

76 Mark Lee, interview by author, Chino, CA (October 8, 2010).

77 Ibid.

78 Ibid.

79 Ibid.

94

Mancini argues for the power of stories in communicating a church’s vision.

He calls these stories part of the “artifacts” that leaders discover with their “vision

detectors.” Specifically, the “creation story” is the one that goes back to the origins of the

organization so that the lineage of all that has been accomplished can be traced.80 In

addition to this, Mancini suggests that gathering a “vision vocabulary” and a “Hall of

fame” can produce effective images that shape a church’s collective identity.81 The

“vision detector” is not limited to gathering data on just the local church. Rather, it can be

expanded to include all spheres of life.

Thus, Hopper’s communication of vision absolutely included stories that he

believed effectively altered the church’s perception of church planting and help shape its

identity as a church planting church. There were four that stood out:

Wally Norling and the Roots of EV Free Diamond Bar

Diamond Bar’s “creation story” starts with Wally Norling, who was the

District Superintendent of the Western District of the Evangelical Free Church of

America and the “founding father” of their church. He is somewhat of a legend among

those in the EFCA. During his tenure as the superintendent, he planted some 37 churches

all across Southern California, mostly by starting Bible studies in people’s homes and

then calling a pastor as the size of the group increased.82

On the church’s 35th anniversary they interviewed Wally and asked him about

why he was so enthusiastic about planting churches. Hopper paraphrased his response:

80 Will Mancini, Church Unique (San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass, 2008), Kindle Electronic Edition: Chapter 8, Location 1148.

81 Ibid., Kindle Electronic Edition: Chapter 8, Locations1180-1187.

82 The author had the privilege of being acquainted with Norling and heard much of his story in a class at Talbot Seminary, where he served as an adjunct professor of Pastoral Ministry. He passed away on April 26, 2010. There is now a church planting foundation set up in his honor at http://www.efcawest.org/norling (accessed January 6, 2011).

95

“because it means more money is going out to support missions.”83 Hopper included

Norling’s statement in a video presentation to their church that illustrated their history.

He was convinced that by reminding the church of its roots they would gain a better

understanding of their responsibility to “pay it forward” and invest themselves in a new

church plant.

The connection of a church plant to international missions proved a wise

move. Lee described international missions as always close to the heart of the Diamond

Bar church. Apparently they understood collectively that revival was happening in so

many places around the world but not in the United States. So they connected the need

for a new church plant with what God is doing around the world. In fact, Lee recalls that

in communicating this idea they “beat it and beat it and beat it” upon the congregation so

they could understand the similarity.84

David Price

Another story that Hopper told was that of a wealthy man he had met named

David Price. Price had been asked to make a sizeable donation to a Christian private

school in Westlake Village, CA. At first he was resistant to the idea because he had no

real connection to the school. But he went ahead and made a contribution. Several years

later, through the course of events, several of his grandchildren ended up attending that

very private school.

Hopper used this personal illustration more than once to demonstrate to the

congregation that as they trust God with their resources, they never know how it may

come back around. He would often tell the congregation that their own children and

83 Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA (October 8, 2010).

84 Mark Lee, interview by author, Chino, CA (October 8, 2010).

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grandchildren could end up attending this new church, and in fact on more than one

occasion that has happened.

The Strawberry Patch

This was a simple illustration that Hopper often used to help explain the

concept of multiplication. As someone who has grown strawberries, he noted that each

vine produces several “runners” where more strawberries will eventually grow.85 Then

each of those vines produces several runners, and the patch grows exponentially. This

was a simple picture used to illustrate the desire to multiply.

Mark Lee and Tom Lanning

One story that would fit into the “Hall of Fame” category had to be the fact

that two of the church’s brightest stars were willing to leave the mother church in order to

lead the church plant. While this was difficult for some in the congregation to accept, it

brought great legitimacy to the church planting effort because there were solid, promising

leaders willing to accept Hopper’s call and move out in to the unknown.

There was one instance where the church celebrated their 39th birthday

because, as they explained, “Who wants to turn 40?”86 On that Sunday morning

celebration Hopper invited Lee to preach along with him and asked him to be part of the

vision casting process for planting a new church. Lee looks back and thinks perhaps it

was all part of the plan to solidify in people’s minds that Lee was the right one to start the

new church.

As Hopper looks forward to the future, he continues to cast vision from the

pulpit to reach more people and plant new churches:

85 Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA, (October 8, 2010).

86 Ibid.

97

I have shared with them that my dream is to see our church double in this decade, in the 2010 and 2020. And I’ve shared that my dream also is that we would start two more churches in the next ten years. Now how that would happen, where that would happen I don’t know, but I try to keep reminding people that this is something that we should be doing.87

Results of Hypothesis 2

The second hypothesis was expressed this way: Selected Senior Pastors of

Church Planting Churches will Identify the Communication of Theological Rationale as

a Key Factor in Casting Vision for a New Church Plant. A synopsis of what was

discovered in this part of the study can be articulated in this sentence: When it comes to

the “why” of planting, the church must see the whole picture.

Hopper and Lee were asked to identify the aspects of theology that were seen

as vital to communicate to prepare the church for reproduction. Both of them mentioned

steady communication of the Great Commission, stating it was a “pivotal” concept for the

congregation to hear.88 Hopper also identified that he would preach on the book of Acts,

tracing the missionary journeys of Paul. He even relayed the fact that Paul was strategic

in how he approached the establishment of churches, going to certain cities and avoiding

others.

It is clear that Hopper believed that helping the church see the biblical

foundations of church planting was a key communication factor in his vision casting

strategy. One of the reasons for this was because of the resistance that he received from

certain members of the congregation. The greatest argument against the planting of the

new church was this: Is there not enough churches already in existence in the area that

has been targeted? In fact, at one business meeting, an influential member of the

87 Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA, (October 8, 2010).

88 Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA (October 8, 2010); Mark Lee, interview by author, Chino, CA (October 8, 2010).

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congregation stood up and said he had done a search on the internet and had identified a

number of churches already in the area, and thus was publicly questioning the need for

more.

Hopper responded with three counter-arguments:

1. There can never be enough churches.

2. Some of the churches that are starting out there may not succeed.

3. There are already people attending the mother church living in the target area and

are involved in a Bible study together that is a potential launch team.

These arguments proved convincing. The church, with its congregational

structure, required a vote by the membership in order to move forward. The motion was

approved and the church plant began.

In one sense this hypothesis is proven true as it relates to the theological

rationale being offered to the church as a vision-casting element. However, there is

another factor involved in the story of Diamond Bar’s church planting experience that

cast a shadow on all of the great success of this new church. It is worth a careful analysis.

The “Dark Side” of the Church Plant

EV Free Diamond Bar’s church planting story would not be complete without

an explanation of what Hopper referred to as the “dark side.”89 In fact, to leave out this

aspect would be to miss an opportunity that can shed some great insight into the

importance of vision casting by the senior pastor.

Identified by both Hopper and Lee, the dark side was the unexpected price

that the church paid in planting a daughter church. It consisted primarily of a loss of

momentum the mother church experienced as a result of the church plant. Hopper

89 Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA (October 8, 2010).

99

referred to the effect as the “wind being taken out of our sails” – a condition that has

meant stagnant attendance and lagging energy for the church from the birth of the

VantagePoint until the summer of 2010. Ironically, it was VantagePoint’s great success

that fueled some of the problems listed below. In fact, VantagePoint has outgrown EV

Free Diamond Bar within its first few years. Lee even won the 2008 Church Planter of

the Year Award from the EFCA.90 Even so, this dark side was identified by both pastors

and manifested itself in four ways:

1. Jealousy of the daughter church. Because VantagePoint had grown so rapidly

over the past several years, it led some at EV Free Diamond Bar to ask the

question, “Why are they growing and we are not?”

2. Dissatisfaction with the mother church. Closely related to the point above was

what seemed to be a certain amount of dissatisfaction with EV Free Diamond Bar

in the wake of VantagePoint’s success. Because VantagePoint is in the “infancy”

stage of their organizational life cycle, they started with a contemporary style that

meant more “bells and whistles” than the older mother church. This caused some

unfavorable comparisons between the mother church and the daughter church.

3. Flat Attendance. According to Hopper’s figures, about 10% of the mother

church’s attendance went with the daughter church.91 This has obvious

implications, especially when the mother church is not experiencing very much

growth.

4. Polarization of the mother church’s members. Even with the excitement of a new

work beginning twenty miles away, there were some who felt that Hopper’s

90 Vantage Point Church, “About Us,” http://www.vantagepointchurch.org/about-us/our-story/ (accessed January 7, 2011).

91 This calculation was based on Hopper’s estimate of 30 families leaving EV Free Diamond Bar to attend VantagePoint.

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desire to give away his “best” leaders amounted to him “pawning off” the future

of the mother church.92 In fact, this so disappointed some people so much that

they left the church altogether, refusing to attend either the mother or the daughter

church.

Possible Explanations of the “Dark Side” Experience

Mismatched DNA and Misunderstood Values

It was clear during our interview that Hopper has paid the emotional price of

the “dark side” over the past few years. As mentioned above, the phrase “wind out of the

sails” was said on more than one occasion during the course of the interview.

Several questions must be asked: Why did this happen? Is there anything that

could have prevented this “dark side” effect?

The answer might begin in a brief statement, almost an afterthought, made by

Hopper during the interview. As he was describing how he communicates the value of

church planting to the congregation, he mentioned the importance of reminding the

church that “[church planting] is one of our values, this is one of the DNA of who we

want to be.”93 Notice, he did not say, “…the DNA of who we are.” Rather, the DNA of

who we want to be. This distinction between who we are and who we want to be is

described by Aubrey Malphurs as the difference between actual and aspirational values.

Actual values are defined as “the beliefs people own and practice daily.”94 Aspirational

values are “beliefs that leaders and their people neither own nor practice.”95

92 Mark Lee, interview by author, Chino, CA (October 8, 2010).

93 Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA (October 8, 2010).

94 Aubrey Malphurs, Advanced Strategic Planning: A New Model for Church and Ministry Leaders (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2005), 105.

95 Ibid., 106.

101

To be fair, certainly church planting is a value that Hopper has deeply

believed in, as has been evidenced in the material above. However, it had yet to be

practiced by him or the congregation as he was casting the vision. So perhaps Hopper,

out of his passion for church planting, had rightly communicated that church planting was

something he had wanted to be a value, but the congregation had not yet arrived at that

conclusion.

One aspect of the “dark side” came about because, according to Hopper, there

is a different DNA between the mother and daughter church. He explains:

The DNA of our new church is very different from us, its lights and sound and rock and roll, and innovative - no criticisms of what they’re doing, they’re doing a great job and they are attracting people, but our style is more traditional... I think unfortunately over those couple of years as their numbers continued to come up, you felt this discontentment or subtle criticism of how come they are growing and we are not? Why aren’t we doing what they’re doing? That was an unfortunate, unforeseen byproduct.96

It may be that Hopper’s DNA resembles more of the church plant than it does

the mother church, at least at this point. The data suggests that EV Free Diamond Bar’s

history as a church that had itself been planted was forgotten by the congregation

collectively. Certainly Hopper has attempted to reconnect the church to its roots through

telling the story of their founder, Wally Norling, and the subsequent provision of land

God gave them back in the early 1980’s. In fact, the most successful capital campaign in

the history of the church was for the purchase of land for the VantagePoint. That is a

remarkable accomplishment.

But one question remains: is there more by way of theological rationale that

could have helped the church get to that place where planting might become an actual

value?

96 Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA (October 8, 2010).

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Presenting a Complete Theological Framework

We have the opportunity to assess the challenges that came about as a result of

the church plant, especially as it relates to the basis of this project. It seems that one

reason for this dark side effect could be in the fact that an incomplete theological

framework of church planting was presented in the original casting of vision. Van

Rheenen’s words of warning bear repeating: “Pragmatism without theological reflection

threatens the future of the church.”97 What else, then, might the church need to

understand going forward to prevent it from experiencing another dark side? Here the

literature review contained in chapter 2 of this project will prove useful. Using Murray’s

categories of a theological framework for church planting, we can examine the merits of

explaining to the congregation the relationship between the church and three key

concepts: the missio Dei, the incarnation, and the kingdom of God.98

The Relationship Between the Kingdom of God and the Church

Murray’s critique of church planting is a good starting point:

Church planting may be a significant way to advance the mission of God. It may help evangelism, peace making, action for justice, environmental concern, community development, social involvement, and other mission ventures. But it is likely to function in this way only if it is set within the right framework. Church planting seen as an end in itself, or simply as an evangelistic methodology, may fall short of its potential and distort our understanding of God’s mission and the nature of God’s kingdom, as the objection suggests.99

For EV Free Diamond Bar, perhaps church planting was too readily put forth

as an end in itself, as Murray suggests. In other words, maybe the idea of church planting

97 Gailyn Van Rheenen, “From Theology to Practice: The Helix Metaphor,” Missiology.org: Proving Resources for Missions Education, 2003, www.missiology.org/mmr/mmr25.htm (accessed August 6, 2010).

98 Stuart Murray, Church Planting: Laying Foundations (Scottdale, PA: Herald Press, 2001), 39-53.

99 Ibid., 35.

103

as a methodology was not connected to the “nature of God’s kingdom” and thus was

misunderstood by enough people in the church to produce this “dark side” effect. For

instance, as Hopper described how he cast the vision theologically for the church plant,

he mentioned the Great Commission, the famous passage from Matthew 28:19-20, which

is as follows: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name

of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I

have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age” (Matt

28:19-20).

While it is certainly an appropriate passage, at this point in contemporary

church history it might suffer from a bit of overexposure to congregations who have seen

it attached to everything from mission organizations to church youth groups.100 It may

have become the “John 3:16” of earlier times – a verse that is so familiar its true meaning

is almost lost. In fact, Christopher Wright critiques the great missionary William Carey,

on this point. He writes:

Carey built the whole of the biblical section of his case on a single text, the so-called Great Commission of Matthew 28:18-20…While we would probably agree with his hermeneutical argument and that his choice of text was admirable, it leaves the biblical case vulnerably thin. We might defend Carey with the consideration that it was an achievement in his context to make a biblical case for mission at all, albeit from a single text. Less defensible has been the continuing practice in many missionary circles to go on and on building the massive edifice of Christian missionary agency on this one text, with varying degrees of exegetical ingenuity. If you put all your apologetic eggs in one textual basket, what happens if the handle breaks?101

100 A Google search of “Great Commission” performed on January10, 2011, yielded

approximately 742,000 results.

101 Christopher Wright, The Mission of God: Unlocking the Bible's Grand Narrative (Downers Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 2006), 34.

104

Therefore it could be that while Hopper courageously cast a church planting

vision, the theological picture may not have been as complete as it needed to be to

successfully change the churches overall understanding of mission.

In addition to this, Both Hopper and Lee referenced the famous C. Peter

Wagner quote: “the single most effective evangelistic method under heaven is planting

new churches.”102 Hopper also described preaching on passages in the book of Acts that

described how church planting happened in the early church. All of that is commendable

and affirms this hypothesis vis-à-vis the theological rationale being presented as a key

communication factor in casting vision for a new church plant.

However, conspicuously absent from Hopper’s list of theological foundations

presented to the church was the concept of the kingdom of God. So what might have

happened was the church saw a methodology that may or may have not made sense

pragmatically, rather than seeing this new church that should naturally emerge out of

their obedience to the gospel and within the larger context of the ever expanding kingdom

of God.

This can be contrasted with the data gathered from NorthWood, where over

the course of both interviews it appeared that the concept of the kingdom is

communicated constantly to the church. Roberts writes, “Our Vision encompasses the

whole world. The Context in which we focus is the society at large, not the church itself.

Our Theology of the Kingdom must be present. The System we use must decentralize.

Our Ethos and passion must be multiplication, not simply linear addition of churches.”103

102 Wagner, Church Planting for a Greater Harvest, 11.

103 Roberts, The Multiplying Church, Location 871-881.

105

Furthermore, perhaps the church was not fully prepared for how it would be

fundamentally changed by such a bold act as reproducing itself. Referencing the effect

that the conversion of Cornelius, a Gentile, had on Peter the Jew, Leslie Newbigin writes:

What the story makes clear, and what is spelled out in more theological terms (as we shall see) in the Fourth Gospel, is that mission changes not only the world but also the church. Quite plainly in this case there is a conversion of the church as well as the conversion of Cornelius…Mission is not just church extension. It is something more costly and more revolutionary. It is the action of the Holy Spirit, who in his sovereign freedom both convicts the world (John 16:18-21) and leads the church toward the fullness of the truth that it has not yet grasped.104

It is conceivable that the church was not prepared for the transformative effect

planting would have upon it. Perhaps they merely thought that what they were doing was

in fact church extension, as Newbigin suggests, rather than church multiplication, again

in the context of the kingdom of God.

This argument can be supported by several pieces of data. First of all, the

church was started partially with the idea that families were moving out into an area that

made it unrealistic in terms of driving time for current church members to invite their

friends to church.105 While this is a valid reason, it might lead some to think that the

church is merely opening up a “branch office” of itself in another area. Secondly, it

seemed that those who were jealous of the success of the new church saw the effort in

zero sum terms. While they lost their best leaders, it may not have occurred to them that

God would bring up new leaders who would carry the mother church into the future.

104 Lesslie Newbigin, The Open Secret, Revised Edition (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1995), Kindle Electronic Edition: Chapter 6, Location 818-828.

105 Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA (October 8, 2010).

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The Relationship Between the Missio Dei and the Church

Missio Dei is Latin for “mission of God” and refers to the actions of God as

the One who sends.106 It is the Father who sends the Son, and the Son sends the Holy

Spirit. DuBose begins his groundbreaking God Who Sends with the idea that mission at

its core means sending, something that God is always doing.107

Thus, as it relates to the church, “The church does not create mission; mission

creates the church. In mission the church has its identity and purpose.”108 This is in

contrast to the concept that many churches have, defining “missions” as that department

of the church that is responsible for managing the support it gives to various foreign

evangelistic endeavors.

The Relationship Between the Incarnation and the Church

This final concept would be helpful as a lens with which the church might

view its future church planting endeavors. The concept of the incarnation has to do with

Jesus being the model of mission. Murray cites the opening of the book of Hebrews:

“Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets,

but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all

things, through whom also he created the world” (Heb 1:1-2).109 When Jesus came to

earth he was the Word who “became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14). He was

“that which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our

eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands…” (John 1:1). The

approach taken by the church, therefore, needs to follow the pattern of Jesus. It needs to

106 Murray, Church Planting, 39.

107 Francis M. DuBose, God Who Sends: A Fresh Quest for Biblical Mission (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1983), 24.

108 Ibid., 105.

109 Murray, Church Planting, 42.

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embody love and truth in the language spoken by the culture in which it exists. Murray

warns, “…church planting that fails to engage with the mission agenda of Jesus can

easily become church-centered rather than kingdom-oriented. The result may be a

proliferation of churches rather than significant advance in the mission of God.”110

Lee noted that while VantagePoint was preparing for their grand opening

service, they wanted to invest heavily in “stuff” (i.e., high quality sound and video

equipment).111 This was because Eastvale had been, as he explained, a “graveyard” for

new churches.112 Many of them did not understand the cultural values of the community.

According to Lee, their Sunday morning services consisted of “one guy with an acoustic

guitar and two crappy speakers.”113 Rather, the church had to be a “reflection of the

community” which meant trying to speak the language of the culture. Again, this created

some tension between the parent church and the daughter church as the parent church was

very different in style and did not understand the drastically different approach taken by

the daughter church.114

But it was not just an investment in high quality equipment. It was also

cultural engagement. The following quote from their website illustrates the incarnational

approach taken by the daughter church:

110 Murray, Church Planting, 43.

111 Mark Lee, interview by author, Chino, CA (October 8, 2010).

112 Ibid.

113 Ibid.

114 This fact was obvious to me even during the interview process. When I met Lee in his office for the interview, he was in the middle of making giant teleprompter cards for a baptism service to be held that Sunday. Because of their rented facility, they were forced to do baptisms outside, using a “live feed” video camera so the congregation could watch inside. Because of the large amount of baptisms, Lee wanted to make sure that the announcer could get through the names and descriptions of each person without a glitch. This anecdotal observation represented to me a striking difference in the culture and values of this daughter church in comparison to the mother church I had visited just an hour prior.

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Since its beginning, the group of people making up VantagePoint Church have passed out over 20,000 bottles of water, washed cars, painted local schools, fed the homeless, brought down the price of gas, adopted teachers and taken down Christmas lights on local houses all as free services to show God’s love in tangible ways.115

It seems that a more thorough understanding of the implications of the

incarnation could have helped the mother church understand in a more unified way the

efforts of the daughter church to reach a new community that speaks a different cultural

language.

Mark Hopper’s Apostolic Identity

In chapter 2, the argument was made that a senior pastor who embraced a

kingdom-focused ecclesiology may in fact subsequently identify more with the role of an

apostle than a pastor. This self-identification was referred to as apostolic identity.

However, during the interview Hopper never made such a self-reference. He has been

functioning in what might be called a pastor-shepherd role at EV Free Diamond Bar for

more than twenty years. While he has had a church planting vision and would like to see

even more planted in the future, it would not be accurate to report that Hopper possessed

an apostolic identity. He saw himself, and others saw him, primarily as a shepherd.116

Yet, this would make sense, since Hopper did not reference the kingdom as

part of the vision he communicated for church planting. As will be shown in Hypothesis

3, however, he both sensed and communicated a great desire to give as much as possible

to the new church.

115 Vantage Point Church, “About Us,” http://www.vantagepointchurch.org/about-us/our-story/ (accessed January 7, 2011).

116 Lee referred to Hopper as “the ultimate shepherd.” Mark Lee, interview by author, Chino, CA (October 8, 2010).

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Concluding thoughts on Hypothesis 2

Hopper’s courageous act of leading a well-established church to sacrifice so

much for a new church plant has made possible careful evaluation with respect to what

can and should be communicated to the mother church in advance. EV Free Diamond

Bar’s age (43 years), size (around 500 people), style (blended/traditional), and structure

(congregational) allow it to be held up as an example for what many churches would be

capable of if they just possessed a leader with vision and resolve. Their honesty in

communicating not just the successes but also the bumps in the road have provided both a

pathway and warning signs for those who would follow in their footsteps, any who might

be so daring.

Results of Hypothesis 3

This hypothesis is written as follows: Selected Senior Pastors in Church

Planting Churches will Identify the Communication of Willingness to Sacrifice Resources

as a Key Factor in Casting Vision for a New Church Plant. What was discovered from

the data might best be described this way: When casting vision for the new church, the

pastor quite literally “bet the farm” to see it happen. The church was not only very

aware of Hopper’s desire to financially support the new church, but they also knew that

he wanted them to contribute everything they could for the purpose of purchasing land.

This “cost,” along with other costs described below, demonstrated Hopper’s commitment

to the new church.

Emotional Cost

As Hopper had been formulating his plan to birth a new church of EV Free

Diamond Bar, he identified a man on staff whom he thought would be perfect to lead it.

Mark Lee had been the Adult Ministries Pastor at the church for several years. Married,

in his thirties, with three young children, there were some in the church who began to

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speculate whether or not Lee would someday replace Hopper as senior pastor and carry

the church forward into the next generation. But Hopper had other plans, and so he

approached Lee with his idea.

At first Lee was not interested. He had never really considered church

planting. Here again is further proof that the church planting effort was driven

exclusively by the senior pastor, at least in the beginning. It was not a scenario where Lee

was looking for a way out and Hopper was trying to give him one. In fact, Lee was very

happy at the church and planned on being there for a long time.

However, God worked on Lee’s heart and he began to get excited about the

idea. But at the same time so did the church’s worship pastor. So Lee approached Hopper

and told him he would plant the church but only if their worship leader could go with

him. Amazingly, Hopper agreed. He was prepared to give away two of the church’s

“best” staff people. Lee highlighted the emotional price that the church paid watching

these staff members go – there were even some who said that the entire adult ministry of

the church would collapse if Lee left. It was clear to both men that the cost to the church

in that regard was particularly high.117

The Land Campaign

But Hopper’s desire to give away resources did not end there. While the

church did not give away a lot of money at first for the plant, they did engage in

something rather unique: a three-year capital campaign to buy land for the new church.

Sometimes churches will engage in a capital campaign to build a new building, and as

part of the campaign will set aside some funds for a new church plant. But this campaign

was done solely for the sake of giving the new church seed money to buy land for its

117 Mark Lee, interview by author, Chino, CA (October 8, 2010).

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permanent home – there was nothing in it for the mother church from the standpoint of

material gain.

So how did the people respond? They gave about $650,000 to the campaign

over a three-year period. On Sunday, October 24, 2010, Hopper drove out to

VantagePoint church to present them with a two-thirds of a million dollars check. In fact,

the extent of their charity went so far as to completely trust the new church with the

money. Both parties were worried about what type of legal entanglements might ensue

from one church purchasing land for another, or if something went sideways in the

relationship. Lee likened it to parents buying a house for their children. What if it is not

the house they want? What happens when they want to sell it? EV Free Diamond Bar

took the route of complete generosity, and the result was a church that now has the

freedom to assess its own needs and make its own decisions.

Support Ad Infinitum

One final detail was too important to be missed. According to Lee, Hopper

was so intent on making sure the new church would succeed that their original plan was

to support them financially for an indefinite period of time. Then the timeline became

seven years, which is still longer than advised for the typical new church to receive

outside support in North America.118 Eventually Lee and his worship leader convinced the

church to not give them a “red cent,” save for their salaries during a period of time and,

as previously discussed, the money from the land campaign.

The financial commitment had existed long before the inception of the church.

For years, according to Hopper, as the church would run a budget surplus at the end of

118 Stetzer and Bird write, “The research suggests that it is best for an agency or denomination to fund a well qualified and well-trained church planter with a modest funding package over a relatively short period of time (three years or less).” Stetzer and Bird, Viral Churches, Chapter 11, Location 2555.

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their fiscal year, they would take 50% of the money and put it toward the mortgage on the

facility and take another 25% to put in a church planting fund.119 This would have

amounted to between $2500 and $7500 set aside for a number of years, giving the church

a head start on its commitment to back VantagePoint.

The Line in the Sand that got the People Engaged

What effect did these magnanimous actions have on the congregation’s ability

to catch the vision for the new church? Lee believed deeply that it was Hopper’s

“brilliance” in making commitments in both manpower and money that forced people to

either get on board or get off. Prior to his public announcement of the giving of resources,

“people could care less about this thing.” As he put it, Hopper’s approach earned him

either “raving fans” or “bigger enemies.”120 Regarding the effect that a $650,000

campaign had on the congregation’s ability to embrace the vision, Hopper responded,

“[It] was a big investment – a big risk or sacrifice, maybe is a better word and, so I think

for people to see that we were willing to do that underscores that this is a value and a

priority.”121

Paying it Forward

The staff, the land campaign, the willingness to provide support, and the

challenge for the congregation to contribute to the new church were elements driven by a

belief that God wanted the church to “pay it forward” – to give back a little of what had

been given to them. Interestingly enough, it has come back around for Hopper in a rather

unexpected way. Both of his daughters are married women on the mission field in two

119 Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA (October 8, 2010).

120 Mark Lee, interview by author, Chino, CA (October 8, 2010).

121 Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA (October 8, 2010).

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different parts of the world. Totally unsolicited, the daughter church decided to support

them as part of their international missions budget. Hopper reaped a reward of his own

courage and investment in a way he could have never foreseen.

Apostolic Action

Chapter 2 offered a distinction between apostolic identity and apostolic

action. Apostolic action was defined as the willingness to sacrifice resources that could

be used for one’s own church for the larger kingdom vision. Hopper clearly modeled to

the congregation his willingness to sacrifice to a great degree both people and financial

resources for the benefit of the new church. In fact, even his words suggested a desire to

do what is necessary to see churches get started.122 In this case it seems that Hopper was

acting apostolically without necessarily identifying apostolically.

This might lead some to question the importance of apostolic identification. Is

it really that important to identify oneself as an apostle if one is acting like an apostle?

Maybe not, but the understanding of the apostolic function as described in chapter 2

might give the senior pastor the language to communicate the church planting rationale

with more clarity and thus maximize engagement on the part of the congregation.

Concluding Thoughts on Hypothesis 3

Hopper sees this new church as worth every penny invested and every family

who decided to join it. “Bottom line,” he says, “it’s the right thing to do.”123 If one does

the math, it is hard to argue. While there was once a church of around 500, now there are

122 Speaking of giving resources away to the new church Hopper affirmed, “You have to be willing to let go.” Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA (October 8, 2010).

123 Ibid.

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two churches with a combined attendance of around 1200. That is a fantastic growth rate

by anyone’s measurements.

One the things Hopper loves to do is visit the new church and see the people

who left to follow the dream God has laid in his heart. But even more than that, he loves

to see all the people he does not know, those he never would have seen, had he not been

obedient to the vision God gave him years ago. One only wonders how many of them he

will see in Heaven.

Conclusion

The above case studies confirmed the stated hypotheses. Both leaders spoke

with passion for church planting within their unique context, and both have paid a price

to see it come to fruition in their churches. A significant amount of what has been learned

can be used to address critical issues facing a pastor who wants to inspire his church to

multiply. The local body of Christ needs a leader with vision – someone who can present

a clear picture of God’s plans for the future, based on what he has promised in the past.

This leader must also be an effective vision caster – one who can inspire others to action.

The case has been made for expecting to find the demonstration of strong

personal conviction, a theological rationale, and willingness to sacrifice resources as

images that inspire action to a church facing the challenge to multiply. Based on the

results of these case studies, the next section, chapter 5, will discuss both the conclusions

and implications for further study that have emerged. It will offer several transcendent

principles regarding vision casting for a new church plant, as well as examine the

limitations of the study and suggestions for future research.

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CHAPTER 5

CONCLUSIONS AND IMPLICATIONS FOR FURTHER STUDY

Introduction

The purpose of this project was to study what senior pastors of church

planting churches identified as key communication factors in casting vision for a new

church plant. The case study method was used so that a multi-dimensional look at each

leader and their respective situations could be assessed. These case studies illustrated the

importance of both the possession and communication of vision in the heart of the senior

pastor who is leading his church to reproduction. It also illustrated how that vision could

be cast most effectively. It attempted to discern what “images” should be present that will

inspire action on the part of the congregation to move forward into unfamiliar territory.

Interpretation of Results and Conclusions

Hypothesis 1

It is clear from the lives of both men that their respective church planting

dreams were born by the power of the Holy Spirit. For Roberts, God met him out on the

back porch on a Sunday afternoon when he was full of the confusion that comes from

unmet expectations.

For Hopper, God birthed in him a church planting conviction through the slow

process of careful study within the context of an academic institution. But what he fought

for and invested in was the fulfillment of a dream that captivated him since he was a

seminary student. For whatever reason, he never ended up planting a church himself.

Perhaps God knew that it would not have been the right thing for him. These days, with

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the assessment tools that are available for church planters, it has become much easier to

steer potential candidates in the right direction. Even so, many are incorrectly assessed,

only to go out on the field and experience the deep disappointment that comes from a

church plant failure.

This first hypothesis asserted that pastors that plant churches out of their

existing church would identify the communication of strong personal conviction that new

churches need to be planted. At one point in the interview Hopper said plainly: “the

bottom line is it’s the right thing to do, I think. I mean, I just feel like every church, and I

was again going to say that the basic premise is, churches ought to start more churches.

It’s good that the denominations we are doing it but really, bottom line, it makes more

sense that churches are starting churches.”1 Again, responding to the need for senior

pastors to be the primary drivers behind the church planting vision, Hopper said:

I agree with that premise and I can say a couple of things: One, that the senior pastor is got to be endorsing that – they got to, you know, go for that and you have to kind of keep talking about a lot over and over in different settings and, you know, so that people are hearing it – leaders are hearing it – elder meeting, budgeting, we got a surplus what we are going to do with this money?2

Beyond Merely Giving Permission to a Trusted Leader

Another aspect both pastors had in common was their tenure at their

respective churches. Roberts planted his church and has been there for 25 years.

Regarding Hopper, Lee described the attitude the church first took at his church planting

aspirations:

Mark kept talking about [church planting] and through the years everybody kept thinking okay, well yeah you’ve been at this church twenty years so, you know, you can pretty much do whatever you want, old man, as long as it doesn’t

1 Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA (October 8, 2010).

2 Ibid.

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affect us. He had developed so much stock, so much relationship, so much leadership stock in that church that the church was okay with him just kind of doing whatever he wanted again as long as it didn’t affect them.3

While that may help, it will not be enough. Church planting as a practice for

the congregation must move past giving “permission” (as mentioned in chapter 1) to the

“old guy,” and must be embraced by a significant percentage of the church. For each

leader it became necessary to convince their respective congregations that a “death” had

taken place – a death to ambition, to personal gain, and even to popularity in order to

pursue what one believes is more important. This is more important than ever in today’s

world to speak authoritatively into people’s lives. Hopper had to get the people to believe

that to “pay it forward” was a worthwhile endeavor, more important than the success of

the mother church. This is why in his communication he connected how the children of

the current congregation might someday benefit from the sacrifices made today.

The Relationship Between Brokenness and Vision Casting Ability

Further study would be worthwhile in the area of relating the story of a

pastor’s brokenness to his ability to cast vision to the congregation. It may extend beyond

even just church planting, but whatever the cause the pastor feels called to, how much of

it can be traced back to their own personal deficiencies, unanswered questions, and

lingering hurts? How might a pastor’s ability to communicate that dimension of his life to

the congregation contribute to the overall vision casting ability? Does the congregation

hang their own understanding of God’s plans for the future on the stories that emerge

from his work in the life of their pastor and other significant leaders in the church?

3 Mark Lee, interview by author, Chino, CA (October 8, 2010).

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Hypothesis 2

Based on the research this hypothesis is true for the selected case studies. Both

pastors pointed to the importance of communicating to their congregations the

theological reasons for church planting, referencing specific passages of Scripture to

defend their positions. Both sought to convince their congregations that church planting

represented a fidelity to those passages.

There is a subtle nuance, however, in this conclusion that can be expressed

with two questions: 1) how complete is the theological rationale for church planting in

the senior pastor’s mind and 2) how well does the congregation abide by and understand

that theological rationale?

For NorthWood, their history indicates that they have developed a culture

rooted in certain convictions captured by Roberts’ critical questions:

1. When will Jesus be enough?

2. What if the church were the missionary?

These questions have, over a period of time, provided a basis for them to see

beyond the “success” of their single local church and forced them collectively to look

outside of themselves. While not every church member may be able to articulate this, the

force of the culture NorthWood has created makes it difficult for people to attend for very

long without being confronted by these theological convictions.

Theological Reflection Prior to Planting

While Hopper absolutely affirms the fact that senior pastors should be the

ones taking the lead in getting new churches planted out of their church, he also had a

caveat for those who might jump in too naively:

I think there is also, you know, that you have to warn pastors that there is a – I don’t want to say a dark side, but there is a challenging part of losing good families and taking the wind out of your own momentum – the comparisons, why

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are they doing so well and we’re not, I think those things are unforeseen, you don’t expect to see that.4

It is the hope of the author that the research conducted would be helpful to the

multitude of senior pastors who have great potential to reproduce untold numbers of

church plants across the United States and beyond. As noted in chapter 1, the state of the

church in the United States leaves leaders with no choice but to bear the responsibility of

seeing new churches get planted, especially with the influence they possess and the

resources at their disposal.

So what really was the reason that Hopper experienced these unforeseen

consequences? Was it a lack of trust? It does not seem so. After all, he had been in his

position for almost twenty years at the time the church plant idea began to materialize.

For quite some time he had been reaping the rewards of a steady, stable congregation

who valued his leadership. Was it an opposition to evangelism? That does not seem to be

the case, either. The church wanted to grow, as evidenced by the fact that some of them

became jealous of the rapid growth of the daughter church and wondering why the same

thing was not happening for them.

It seems that one factor may have been an inaccurate understanding of how

EV Free Diamond Bar understood itself as a church in relationship to the kingdom of

God. In other words, does the church exist for itself primarily or does it exist for kingdom

purposes? One can only wonder how many other churches would fit into this category,

and thus might be susceptible to the same sort of natural resistance to the prompting of

their senior pastor to begin reproducing.

Senior pastors wanting to cast vision for a new church plant may need to

clearly develop their own theological rationale for church planting that extends beyond

two common church planting talking points: 1) the effectiveness of the methodology of

4 Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA (October 8, 2010).

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church planting, and 2) the Great Commission mandate. As strange as it might seem,

even the combination of the strategy of church multiplication found in Acts in

conjunction with the well-known Great Commission passage found in Matthew may not

be enough to challenge a church that has developed a system, whether intentionally or

unintentionally, of non-reproduction.

Hypothesis 3

The research indicates that this hypothesis is true. Both pastors represented in

this study have made tremendous sacrifices and communicated those sacrifices to the

church. They have identified this as a key factor in casting vision to their congregations.

It is truly remarkable that Mark Hopper raised $650,000 for a church that, at

the genesis of the campaign, had not yet even come into existence. For a landlocked

church in a lackluster economy, this one act on its own represents the truth of this

hypothesis. But the other aspect is true as well, which is that this campaign served as a

“line in the sand” for those who would either join the cause or stand on the sidelines.

Whatever the case, the financial response of the people proves that they were receptive to

the vision and were willing to make significant sacrifices to see it accomplished.

Sacrifice over the Long Haul

Roberts believes that there is much to learn from the church in the east. They

recently let go of their small groups pastor in order to pursue a cell model for their church

that effectively transfers the center of gravity of the church from the Sunday morning

gathering to the cell group.5 This all happened because of one man’s conviction that this

is the best way to go, even though the costs in the short run might be high.

5 Brian Hook, interview by author, Dallas, TX (July 22, 2010).

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Moving forward, several questions should be asked: First, how is Roberts

casting vision for this major church transformation? Second, is it working? Are people

making the shift to seeing their groups as “cells” that exist for the purpose of

multiplication?

In Transformation, Roberts writes about the Long Now Project. It is a

foundation that, according to their website, “was established in 01996 to creatively foster

long-term thinking and responsibility in the framework of the next 10,000 years.”6 They

have built a clock that supposedly “ticks once a year, bongs once a century, and cuckoos

every millennium.”7 This perspective, according to Roberts, is important when leaders

consider the future. What are we dreaming about and attempting for the next generation,

or for the next thousand generations? What are we giving up for those who will come

after us?

Implications for Ministry

This project has unearthed several implications for ministry. In particular,

these implications carry the potential for current leaders to harness tools that are readily

available to them to cast a powerful vision for church planting, regardless of their

personality temperament or ministry context.

Hypothesis 1

Pastors must come to terms with what they really believe in their hearts and

then have the courage to communicate that in a variety of ways to their congregations if

they expect to be credible leaders in the twenty-first century. While both senior pastors in

6 “The Long Now Foundation,” http://www.longnow.org (accessed January 6, 2011).

7 Bob Roberts, Jr., Transformation: How Glocal Churches Transform Lives and the World (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2006), 55.

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this study had very different church planting approaches and possessed their own unique

temperament, they both courageously proclaimed in sermons, leadership meetings, and in

writing, their belief that the benefits of starting new churches outweigh the potential

risks.

Beyond just verbal communication, casting vision will mean displaying a

lifestyle that demonstrates a consistent message of multiplication. These leaders must

have dealt with their own fears and thus be able to speak into the fears of the

congregation when casting vision for a church plant.

Power of Pictures and Stories

Every church has within it stories of God’s activity either in the past or the

present. For Mark Hopper and E.V. Free Diamond Bar, a huge part of their “story” was

embodied in the person of Wally Norling. Norling’s lifelong commitment to starting new

churches, including their church, serves as an immortalized image for the people of E.V.

Free Diamond Bar. Hopper harnessed the power of Norling’s story and turned into a “line

in the sand” for a congregation that had once been planted but had not yet planted.8

Hopper even looked outside of the congregation for illustrations of what he was hoping to

accomplish through the church plant, so that the congregation could sense it within their

grasp. One such anecdote is the story of David Price and the unexpected blessing that

came from his generosity of donating money to a private school where his grandchildren,

unbeknownst to him, would someday attend.

Every senior pastor desiring to cast vision for a new church plant should be

able to find an image that inspires action. Hopefully these stories can emerge from within

8 Mark Hopper, interview by author, Diamond Bar, CA (October 8, 2010),

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the church so her potential can be clearly seen. In the context of a church discovering its

“missional motives,” Mancini writes,

At the risk of sounding too harsh, I would say differentiate or don’t exist. Your people deserve to know why your church is special, what God is doing uniquely through your leadership, and why they should sacrificially contribute… Tell them why your Church Unique is going to win the day. Inspire the attitudes and actions that harmonize with the collective potential.9

Pictures and stories are readily available to every senior pastor of a church

desiring to multiply. The issue is how effectively they can be used to catalyze momentum

for a new church plant. As these images are captured, they must be repeated over and

over, so that there is no doubt that they represent the vision, values, and future of the

church.

Hypothesis 2

Will senior pastors take seriously Van Rheenen’s challenge to be both

theologians and practitioners? Perhaps the challenges involved in achieving a church

planting movement require more than just pure methodological thinking, but require a

theological apologetic that can withstand the risks and resistance that are sure to come.

As this theology is developed, it must be cast as part of the vision to the entire

church, so that they can understand it as best as possible. Otherwise, how will they truly

be able to multiply as Roberts and other leaders see as so vital for the advance of the

gospel?

Evaluating Current Systems and Behaviors that Might Hinder Reproduction

Andy Stanley, in a lecture given to thousands of leaders at a conference in

2005, argued that the system of an organization always outweighs the statement the

9 Will Mancini, Church Unique (San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass, 2008), Kindle Electronic Edition: Chapter 13, Locations 1708, 1716.

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organization claims to follow: “Systems have a greater impact on organizational culture

than do mission statements. I am all for mission statements. But systems trump mission

statements 100% of the time. Because your mission statement is hanging on the wall,

[but] your system is happening down the hall.”10

Every church has a specific system. In order to change it, the vision casting

must extend beyond merely words and get into the operational functions of the church.

The hope would be that concepts such as the kingdom of God, the missio Dei, and the

incarnation might find expression in the systems of the church prior to its planting

endeavors. If, as was cited in chapter 1, “the vision cannot be separated from the vision

caster, and the vision caster cannot separate his message from his life as a model,” how

far does that modeling need to dive into the systemic operations of the church? 11 For

instance, Stanley tells pastors, “Your staff is doing exactly what you have led and

rewarded them to do.”12 This eventually trickles down from the staff to the lay leadership

and the membership.

Certainly for EV Free Diamond Bar their church planting effort was

ultimately successful, and any church that attempts to plant will incur a price of some sort

regardless of their advance preparation. But this research suggests that one critical step

prior to diving into the effort is to engage in serious theological reflection about church

planting. Then, it would be helpful to examine the current systems of the church to see

what behaviors are being rewarded that might help or hinder the church planting

endeavor. At that point, they would be armed with not only a vision but also the

10 Andy Stanley, “Systems,” Catalyst Conference, mpeg, 25:38.

11 Mancini, Church Unique, Chapter 16, Location 2115-19.

12 Stanley, “Systems,” 26:30.

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beginnings of a culture that could perpetuate reproduction regardless of ever-changing

methodological trends or economic conditions.

Hypothesis 3

This research has implications when it comes to convincing other pastors to

“change the scorecard” when it comes to measuring success for the congregation.

Examples of this include setting aside 10% or more of an annual budget, giving away one

or more full time staff, and sending a significant percentage of families to the new church

plant. These are steps that serious leaders must be willing to take.

Changing the Scorecard to Measure Success

Intense reflection will be required for many senior pastors in the United States

today who are often preoccupied with the relationship between the size of their church

and their success as leaders. Stetzer and Bird write, “As our friend Ralph Moore often

says, ‘Its time to stop counting converts and begin counting congregations.’”13 In fact,

they go on to observe about Moore’s congregation, “He and his congregations have

grown accustomed to the chaos, shifting, sending, and cost involved with such a

movement. Even more than being accustomed to it – they like it. Why? Because through

the movement, they are seeing lives saved in their own community and around the

world.”14 All of that requires a shift in thinking from addition of churches to

multiplication of churches.

If it were true, as Roberts believes, that many pastors possess a latent

apostolic gift, what would happen if that gift were free to be unleashed in the church?

13 Ed Stetzer and Warren Bird, Viral Churches: Helping Church Planters Become Movement Makers (San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass, 2010), Kindle Electronic Edition: Chapter 3, Location 877.

14 Ibid., Chapter 3, Location 940.

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Would the result be a church more focused on the kingdom? Beyond the role of the

senior pastor, what about the individual congregation members? Is it unrealistic to expect

that in the United States untrained, non-vocational, “everyday” church members might

constitute the next wave of church planters in the United States as they do in other parts

of the world? For example, ordinary church members share in the teaching of potential

church planters in training seminars at NorthWood.15 But will the culture in the United

States respond to the efforts of those who perhaps cannot dedicate their full time to

creating consumer-friendly ministries that impress curious audiences each and every

week? That is a question yet to be answered.

Limitations

This project attempted to provide a comprehensive picture of vision casting

for a new church plant from the perspective of the senior pastor. However, several

limitations to the research stand out. First, while it was helpful to interview both the

senior pastor and an associate staff member of each church, the information yielded was

only one sided. In other words, it was outside the scope of this project to glean any

insight from someone purely on the receiving end of the vision casting efforts coming

from the church leadership, such as a member of the congregation.

This is where a quantitative research project might be helpful. If one were to

take a sample of a congregation that responded to a senior pastor’s leading to planting a

new church, insight could be gained into the attitudes, responses, and understanding of a

larger group of people whose commitment to the church plant was sought. Then we

might be able to assess the success of the senior pastor’s ability to change the hearts and

minds of those whom he leads.

15 Brian Hook, interview by author, Keller, TX (September 28, 2010).

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Second, due to the nature of the case study method, only three senior pastors

and their associates were interviewed, with the focus placed on two of them. This

research method allowed for an extensive examination of the circumstances surrounding

each case. However, with only two cases represented in this research the conclusions

reached are only the beginning of what could be a wider examination of how leaders are

inspiring their congregations to multiply.

Finally, it should be noted that each of these cases, including the test case,

involved pastors of contemporary, suburban churches in the United States. Other factors

involved with casting vision for a new church plant might be present for senior pastors of

churches in other parts of the world or in different contexts within the United States.

Conclusion

Moving the gospel forward in the United States during the 21st century will

remain an uphill battle. The great cathedrals of Europe notwithstanding, the United States

possesses some of the most amazing church buildings in the world. It has also seen

perhaps the most sophisticated ministry operations in history. There are senior pastors in

churches scattered across this nation who possess gifts that could have easily catapulted

them into the upper echelons of the political, business, or entertainment arenas. However,

with all of this leadership expertise and ministry effectiveness, the church is holding

steady if not losing ground.16

The leadership capacity, the vast amount of resources, and the army of

followers that make up evangelical churches in the United States today must be

unleashed to energize a church planting movement that can radically change the current

16 David T. Olson, The American Church in Crisis: Groundbreaking Research Based on a National Database of Over 200,000 Churches (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2008), Kindle Electronic Edition: Chapter 2, Location 614-623.

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waning influence of Christianity in the culture. But this must start with leaders who

possess a clear picture of God’s plans for the future, based on what he has promised in

the past. They must create images that inspire action among the people whom they lead.

They must connect their story with the unfolding plans and purposes of God from the

very beginning, as outlined in Scripture and executed throughout history. Only then

might we begin to see what so many have prayed for – a revival in the United States.

This project was conducted in the hopes that I might learn to become a bolder,

more effective visionary leader, and that I might understand what issues are involved in

inspiring a congregation to embrace the vision of church planting. May it also be a

blessing to other leaders whom God has raised up to carry the gospel to the places and

faces that have never heard, until the work is done.

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APPENDIX A

INTERVIEW WITH BOB ROBERTS

JACOBS: But the first question is, do you think it’s critical for the senior pastor of a church planting church to be the primary driver behind the effort?

ROBERTS: Yes, I do.

JACOBS: And why is that?

ROBERTS: Because if the senior pastor doesn’t do it its not going to happen, number two its also something , you know what I mean when I say apostolic ministry?

ROBERTS: Alright. I think, I mean, not in a charismatic sense, but in an influence beyond your own local church. I think most churches today are driven by the pastor-teacher versus apostolic more prophetic type leadership and I would say what we need most pastors have that within them, no, not most, many pastors would be predisposed to that and they sense that but they don’t know what to do with it.

JACOBS: Mmm-hmm.

ROBERTS: And I think, that a lot of catalytic church planters, guys that go and plant for two or three years and leave, those guys are really apostolic guys, and they’re doing, there’s a different way that they can do that a lot of them, in raising up other pastors, so I think if the pastor doesn’t do it, you’re not going to raise up the planters.

I think if the pastor doesn’t do it, you’re not going to multiply the church, you may start a church here and there along the way, but its never going to get to multiplication like you really want.

JACOBS: Right, unless you’re raising up the other leaders.

ROBERTS: That’s it.

JACOBS: Yeah. How has your own walk with God formed your church planting convictions, that, as you said, churches need to be multiplying?

ROBERTS: It’s the core of it. I mean, I was trying to grow a church as big as I could, as fast as I could, we went through a relocation process, when we did, we pulled out all the stops to contemporize our church, this is years ago, but when that happened, it was out of brokenness, and I shifted, one day I was praying, and I said, “God, you know, just, forgive me for being for being more obsessed with my church and my stuff and my kingdom and in the context of that, I, I, literally prayed a prayer: “Help me God not just try to be the biggest church in the area but to church the area.

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JACOBS: Mm-hmm

ROBERTS: And that was a prayer I prayed out of brokenness. What I was doing without realizing it, I was shifting from thinking like a pastor, who, our church is going to reach this area to a missionary our church is going to church this area, that’s a radically different way to pastor a church, and a different way to see your community.

JACOBS: And when you did that obviously you had started your church, your church was growing, you hit some walls of frustration. Then, but then you had this, um, revelation that God gave you. Now you have to communicate it to the church. How did you do that?

ROBERTS: Well, two or three things. First of all, ah, I just shared the story of what, that’s the first thing. Here, God laid this on my heart, guys, you know, we don’t need to worry about being the biggest church in the area. We need to be concerned about multiplying the church in the area, what does that look like, and so first I began to tell the story of what God was saying to me and we began to pray and God had a guy who was felt led to start a church out in our area he stopped by when I was praying through all of this.

That was the first church we sponsored. And so, there’s several ways, so we began to tell his story, he came in and started a small group in our church, and took a group of people out when it became time to plant that church uh that so, we’re seeing it happen. I mean, I was telling the stories there was literally a church planter in our church and there were people leaving with him. And then when it got to where it was multiple churches that were being planted, we’d take them all through this whole ceremony in the Sunday morning worship. And, you know, we’d give them the St. Christopher medal and all this stuff, I think that’s in the book.

JACOBS: Yeah

ROBERTS: But we’d do all that so that they’re seeing the story of it regularly, and then, you know, then, you know, we have all these church planters start coming to our church and we started a little conference for church palnters you know and that began to grow and then first one thing and then another.

JACOBS: But it was really kind of birthed out of what had happened in your own life.

ROBERTS: It was.

JACOBS: And that spilled over.

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ROBERTS: It was. And I think, I think, you didn’t ask me this, but one of the reasons we don’t have church planting movements in America is, two things, number one, pastors are not committed to them, they say they are, but they’re really not.

I mean most guys when they start a church they want to help start a church in another city, or 30 minutes away from themselves.

I stupidly didn’t know any better and so our first church is two miles that direction our second church is three miles that direction. So, we’re working on our 21st church now that, we’ve started 130, but 21 of them are literally within four miles of where you’re sitting, two to four miles. And so what happened was when, when I began to do that, first I realized it was the pastor, and then second of all I realized, once a pastor gets it, his job was to push that down to his church members.

We don’t have time to get into this, you don’t want to write about this right now. But what I’m doing, I’m learning a tremendous amount from the church on the other side of the world. We’re literally transitioning our church right now to a cell church model. Because we think we’ve even discovered another way to plant churches. I mean, this year we’ll plant 30. But we think there’s a way we can plant even 50 to 100 churches.

JACOBS: Yeah.

ROBERTS: And I’m learning it from the other side of the world.

JACOBS: But, and you’re learning it from the other side of the world. You’re going there and, you, what you said a minute ago, really does actually key on the whole first part of my project, which is, you said, a lot of guys talk about it, but they’re not really doing it. Maybe just to take, another step in that direction, I mean, is that…

ROBERTS: You should talk to Stetzer about that,

JACOBS: Okay.

ROBERTS: I don’t know if you get a chance to interview him but you should.

JACOBS: Okay. ROBERTS: Because he’s got all the research.

JACOBS: Yeah.

ROBERTS: Even a lot of the church planting networks, the big name guys. There’s not as much church planting when you compare it up against denominations as you think.

JACOBS: Really.

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ROBERTS: Yes.

JACOBS: Interesting.

ROBERTS: It is. And then, even in those church planting networks it’s only a handful of churches that are doing the majority of the church planting.

JACOBS: Right.

ROBERTS: It’s gotta get back to the local church.

JACOBS: And then, then, how does it, so then the catalyst for it then is who?

ROBERTS: It is the local church pastor. We’ve got to move from pastors to missionaries. Every pastor in America needs to think of himself as a missionary.

JACOBS: Mmm-hmm.

[Phone call interruption]

ROBERTS: So see that man right there [referring to missed call] teaches me how to not think like an aircraft carrier, but how do you command a fleet.

And so most of us, as pastors, we think in terms of church, and even pastors that are multiplying churches, how do I help a pastor start a church? That’s the wrong question. The real question is, “How do I put a missionary in that community to multiply the church out. And that really is a radically releasing model.

JACOBS: But again, going back to it then, you’re looking at this and you’re saying, this is something that just kind of bleeds out of you and its got to bleed out of other leaders as well. Because I guess I feel the same thing as well, I mean, there’s a lot of talking about this and a lot of energy with church planting conferences and everything else, and its like, you’re over here saying, if it doesn’t start in the heart of the pastor…

ROBERTS: And here’s what you’re looking at, your paradigm isn’t church it’s the city. If it’s the church, then I’m going to start a church for that suburb and I’ve done a good job. If you’re grid is the city, then you’re going to have to see a lot of churches started.

So my obsession has got to be the city and the church is the expression of a gathering of believers, versus, I’ve got to start a church to reach that city. See, think about that: I’ve got to start a church to reach that city. It’s not true, it’s not going to happen.

It’s never happened. Thank God for churches, alright, I’m not anti-church, you’re sitting in one, but that’s really not the conversation. The conversation is, what is that city? And what do I do?

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In the early days when we planted a church my goal was to find a planter to go over there and start, alright, I still do that, but my bigger obsession is, “Does this planter have the ability to think like a missionary, and to go in there and be a beachhead for the multiplication of churches in that city?

JACOBS: Yeah. Gotcha. Good. And so as that kind of… I’m interested in how that filters in to the congregation at large. Because I’m at the in the beginning stages of all this in my own church, and sadly, as you know, there’s people who are going, “Church planting, really?” And you’re going, “Yeah.” You know? And so I think there’s a lot of guys in that spot. Here you are looking at whole movements and there’s guys over here going, “I might plant one church in the next two years. So, how do we…

ROBERTS: Stories.

JACOBS: Good

ROBERTS: Keep telling stories.

JACOBS: Good. And can you think of one that’s helped define the “ethos” of Northwood?

ROBERTS: No, there’s not one, there’s many.

JACOBS: Okay.

ROBERTS: I mean, Sunday, I screwed up in our service, but one of my points in my sermon, they become the illustrations of my sermons. So, do I preach a sermon series on church planting, no usually once a year I preach a sermon on it. But my illustrations are filled with, so we’ve got this one guy that Warner Brothers is doing a big story on him because he works with homeless kids in Bend, Oregon, and so, we’re playing his video that Warner Brothers put together for two minutes in the service.

That’s a story. The next story, another guy, I had him come over to our church and talk about what he’s doing in West Africa, much similar to what we did in Vietnam. We’ve mentored him, he’s doing that, so I’m getting Kevin to stand up, tell us about, and everybody’s clapping for him and cheering for him about what he’s doing.

JACOBS: Yeah.

And then I’ve got another guy who’s coming to Keller, you know so I mean he’s right, and I’m introducing this guy, you know, he’s going to be right up the road from us, three miles, and he’s talking about what God’s calling him to do. So they’re all cheering for him, well, they’ll probably be some people who wind up going to that church.

JACOBS: And you’re fine with that.

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ROBERTS: You have to be. If you’re going to be a church planting church. It’s different to be a church that’s going to start a church every two to four years. If you’re a church planting church, I mean, first it was one a year then two a year then four a year then eight, then twelve.

This year, we put a process together to start 25 a year. We figured it would take us three or four years to get there. This year we’ll help plant over thirty churches.

JACOBS: Wow.

ROBERTS: So, you have to be. And it does impact your attendance.

JACOBS: It does.

ROBERTS: I mean, yeah, I mean, I’m in an area, here’s the reality: in this area, there’s now 20,000 people in those churches that we’ve helped plant, at a minimum. Okay? There’s no way our church our church would run 20,000. If you understand demographics, and traffic flow, and so forth. We could be a church, of you know, maybe 8, you know, thousand or something like that. If we do it different, maybe more. There’s no way we’d run over 20,000. No way.

JACOBS: Right.

ROBERTS: Yeah. So, there’s not even a church. I mean, Fellowship and Gateway don’t run 20,000 and those are the two biggest churches in this area.

Mm-hmm.

And they’re huge churches. But, I’m having more than they are at this point through the multiplication of churches that we’ve done. You’ve got to shift your metric. And, as pastors, we don’t value that metric a lot. We still get our strokes by how many seats are in our auditorium and how any people showed up.

So, then, looking at this, the passion that just kind of comes out of you for church planting, how important was it that the congregation understood, you know, Bob really believes this. This isn’t just some new program. How important was that, to really, the congregation catching that?

ROBERTS: Well, from where we are now, it wasn’t a program. Because when we started doing it in 1992, it just increases every year. And so, I think its consistency over a long period of time. I mean, you do the math. Our first plant was 1994, I think. So you do the math, that’s 16 years later, and we’re doing 30 churches this year, so, here’s the thing. They own it when they see consistency over time of engagement.

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Had I stood up and said, “We’re going to start a church this year. Everybody got behind it. Okay we started a church. That’s not what we did. What we did is, the church ought to naturally be multiplying.

JACOBS: Absolutely. You sold that statement. Right…

ROBERTS: Not the statement. They saw the life, they saw the consistency. Credibility equals, one of my mentors says, credibility equals time plus results plus character over time equals credibility. If you have those three things present. So, that becomes the DNA of your church. So it’s not a program. We’re trying to start a church, or we’re trying to start a church a year. No, we’re rapidly multiplying. So we, this year, our total attendance at Northwood, its possible, this year, our total attendance at Northwood could increase by just 100 to 150. But when you added the churches we’ve planted this year it will be, just in this year alone from the new churches, not the ones we’ve started all these previous years that continue to grow, just from the new churches alone they’ll be over 3,000 people in church. Minimum.

JACOBS: Wow. That’s, that’s great. Well let me shift gears for a second here, to the second part of this, and, do you think that church planting pastors tend to think, and this is an interesting question, or a difficult question, but do you think they think methodologically, do they tend to think more methodologically than they do theologically about church planting?

ROBERTS: I would say neither, they think biblically. And by that I mean, they tend to look at things like Acts and say, how did the church grow. They look at the Bible more as, what is the template here, what are the things that we can draw from scriptures to help us understand it. I think churches that plant a lot of churches if you really study them, generally, they don’t have a model of church planting. They’ll embrace all the models. Okay? Churches that don’t start a lot of churches that are birthed out of one particular model of church, or multiply that model to some degree, but the guys who really plant a whole lot every year, and there’s not many of those in America, I mean, you could probably count them on one hand. But if you study the guys around the world, there’s multiple models. So, I don’t they think methodologically.

JACOBS: Okay.

ROBERTS: I don’t think, church multiplication is more than methodology. Here’s the flip side, with the exception of Mark Driscoll, I think most guys don’t think theologically about church planting. They don’t come up with a theological premise, and treatise and say, here we are, here’s what it looks like, we’re going to start churches based on that.

I just don’t know any guys that do that. Now, Acts 29 does that, I would say they’d be the tightest theologically in what they do in reference to that, so they would. Now you need to study carefully, if you get into stats, how many actual churches have they planted versus adoption. You know what I mean by adoption?

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JACOBS: Mmm-hmm.

ROBERTS: Cause there’s a lot of, I don’t know what they do now, but there was a time when you had to have. Go back and ask them, they can tell you. But it used to, you had to have 100 people and a hundred thousand and you could basically join. But in terms of seeding from scratch, you should look into that. But I think most guys look at the Bible, they see how the church grew, and they get intrigued by that.

JACOBS: Yeah. Well, again, as it relates to, looking at the church that, for example, Northwood, What role is presenting, what I call for the purposes of this paper a theological rationale, you would call it a biblical basis. But, in other words, as opposed to saying, “We’re going to do this, because, why not, everyone else is doing it.” But a biblical basis, a theological framework or underpinning for church planting. How important has that been to you?

ROBERTS: I think it’s the narrative story of Acts. The church turned the world upside-down, Acts 17:6.

JACOBS: And that is something you feel is important to share with Northwood as well. Not just, we’re going to plant churches.

ROBERTS: Oh, it’s huge. But it’s also the global church. So, biblically when I look at it. I’m seeing the story of Acts replicated in China, Kazakstan, Indonesia. I mean, there’s a group of us that get together globally. I mean, so, it is the Biblical basis for the story of what is taking place.

JACOBS: You’ve talked a lot about the Kingdom in your books. I mean, everything you write is, deals with the kingdom. So I don’t want to speak for you in this, but its obvious, but its obvious by all the stuff you’ve written. Um, is that communicated to Northwood too?

ROBERTS: Oh gosh, yeah. I mean, we have all kind of little sayings: kingdom in, kingdom out. You know, what is it, the kingdom has to first transform us but as the kingdom is transforming us, it doesn’t stop, it oozes out, its going to multiply itself.

JACOBS: Do you think if you pulled the average person aside at Northwood and asked them to say, you know why, can you articulate theologically, I don’t mean particularly deep or heavy, but just some basic biblical principles of why Northwood plants churches, do you think they’d be able to articulate that?

ROBERTS: I do. I think if you were to ask them to biblically or theologically state that you’d make them nervous, you’d scare them, you know, but if you were to say, why do you guys do that biblically, I think most of them would say, it’s the church that should be engaging the community as it was in Acts. They would say that, um, the natural response of any disciple is to multiply. And the place of gathering of the disciples is the church.

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I think there’s a lot of those. They may not know it as a theological response to church planting, but there would be certain things, you know, the expression of the kingdom is most presented when a church multiplies in a community. I think there’s a lot of statements you would hear them say. They wouldn’t see it on a theological grid like you would, someone getting your doctorate, or something like that. That’s why I said, biblically they would understand that.

JACOBS: Yeah, yeah. Well, and this whole thing is coming out of, you know, there’s so many church planting books that talk about the resistance points, even today people have, in America, with, Christians have, with church planting cause its scary, it costs money, we might lose people, so, you know.

ROBERTS: Keep in mind, those are pastoral issues. Most church members are fine. They’re actually proud of their church when they start a church. Lost people could care less. The biggest resistance point of church planting is other pastors. The biggest resistance I got was from the other pastors in this area. I mean, they’d tell me, “Bob, you’re hurting your own church, why are you doing that.” So, I mean.

That’s very helpful to hear you say that. And again, it kind of goes back into what I’m trying to focus on here. Do you think a pastor can successfully cast a church planting vision to the congregation without communicating some kind of theological rationale for church planting?

ROBERTS: uh. I don’t. I get nervous with the term you couch that in, theology, I know what you’re doing, and I’m fine with that. But its not like I’ve developed this theology. Let me explain this to you: it’s more of a narrative story. When you look at Acts, how the church spread. We have pastors from all over the world who are at our church all the time. They come and they preach. When they have 30,000 and they started 450 churches. Or they have a church planting movement, of you know, 10,000 churches and so forth. It’s such a natural, its, its, the response is, that’s what they did in Acts, that’s what’s happening in the church around the world. We want to be a part of that here in America.

So there has to be a biblical basis. And I think it also has to be clear, okay? Like, our response is, if you want to get a church, don’t focus on starting a church, don’t focus on the church. Don’t focus on the preacher who’s the church planter. Focus on the disciple, and the society, and that’s in my book.

But, we are getting even stronger about that. The reason we’re getting stronger about that, I guess that is theology when you think about it.

When you look at what happens in Acts, those churches are emerging through disciples. It’s not guys who go to the seminary and who are classically trained. And the elder was basically, just over a group, or the church in that city, which could be multiple expressions of houses and so forth. Now, I believe they came together to worship, because if you read Corinth, you know, when you come together and partake of the

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Lord’s supper, yadda, yadda, yadda. Why do you need elders and bishops, and polity, if you’ve got just one house church of 10 to 15 people it makes no sense.

Which, you know, you didn’t ask me this, but it goes back to the model question. I don’t think we have a proper view of the church of the Bible. And I think people are arguing about it today out of ignorance and stupidity. For example, you hear people arguing, we’re going to be the house church, this is all of church. You have other people who say, “Well, we’re going to start a church in, you know, you know, let’s, the Sunday event. Well, they’re both wrong. You need it all.

I think there are three expressions of church and I’m studying this right now a lot. There’s the cell, or the house, or the organic, or what Neil Cole would call the simple church. Alright? And then you’ve got the city church. What is that? That’s the coalescing of all those cells. And what’s the point of that city church? It’s where the apostolic is put into gear, where we strategically mobilize the multiplicity of those cells to engage the city. You follow me?

JACOBS: Yep.

ROBERTS: And so that’s where the big vision of apostolic key core leadership is, and so forth. And then third and finally is the global church. You have different expressions in between both of those, all three of those.

JACOBS: And so you’re thinking through, like, you’re almost going back to, what is the best expression of church right here?

ROBERTS: You know what, I guess you’re right. I guess I am. It is theological, because, but I look at it as more biblical. I resist a little bit, although I am reformed, I don’t like a lot of tight theology. I think we’ve made it too systematic.

JACOBS: Yeah. And when I bring up the word theology. I mean, I’m a pastor myself I’m not a scholar. When I bring up theology, it was more of like…

ROBERTS: No, it’s fine.

JACOBS: You know what I’m saying? It’s more of trying to differentiate that from the guy who just says, Hey lets just go out and start churches without really thinking, have you articulated, I want to hear if someone like you has thought it through, and I know you have, but I want to hear you say it. And then taking the time to sit with the average guy in the chair who doesn’t know church planting from Adam often times.

ROBERTS: So, right now what we’re doing is, you’ll have to ask me two years from now, did it work. Our church is moving toward a cell model. And I know that doesn’t work in America. And when I, it doesn’t work. But I don’t know of a single church around the world that isn’t exploding that doesn’t use cell model and use that for church planting. But what happens is, the people in the pew become the church planters.

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JACOBS: Hmmm.

ROBERTS: But, once again, why do we think, and that’s the way it is in China. That’s the way it was in Acts. Well, we’ve turned it primarily into a profession. I’m not for guys not going to seminary, I’m not for, don’t dare here me saying that. But what would it look like for a movement to be viral? And so, when I’m studying Acts and when I’m studying Paul and what he did, those three expressions of church are huge. If you don’t have the cell, then you don’t have the body life. You don’t have the discipleship that takes place.

If you don’t have the city, you don’t have the strategic focus of engaging the domains of that city and how its put together. And if you’re not seeing that city transform, you’re never going to connect with the global church, and so forth. So, it is driving a lot of how we do church planting.

JACOBS: What is driving it?

ROBERTS: Well, our understanding of Scripture and what is taking place. But what happened was, I began to hear the story of the church planted in Acts, and then, as I began to study the global church and got connected to it in many different ways, I began to understand Acts in a way that I didn’t before. Had I not been connected to the global church, Acts would not have made sense to me. Because, its only in the global church that we’re seeing that lived out today.

JACOBS: But do you, just kind of, then, going off on a tangent just picking up on that, is it because of overexposure and affluence that we’re in the situation we’re in in America, where there’s professionals with big buildings? Or, if you flipped everything, or if all of a sudden we lost our affluence and lost our exposure would we function that way in more of a cell church kind of a

ROBERTS: I don’t think so because I don’t think, I think, first of all, we have two extreme expressions of church in a consumeristic manner. The first way is, most megachurches. People coming for religious goods and services. The second way of consumerism is also seen in the cell churches. It’s about me and my family, and its also a very narcissistic church. And what you’re doing, you’re arguing models, and neither one of you are changing the city.

JACOBS: Mmm-hmm.

ROBERTS: The one in the cell is bitter and angry and its frustrated people, so they’re not going to change anyone. The one up here, it’s so much about the Sunday event, it’s forgot its city. And you’ve gotta, its not an either/or, it’s a both/and.

JACOBS: Good. Good. Um, that helps a lot. Good. And then, the last section, it goes along with what we’ve been talking, we’ve filled a lot of this in just naturally talking through this. Um, can you talk about how important it is for the church to know that the pastor is willing to let resources go in order to plant a new church?

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ROBERTS: Oh, man, I’m living it right now. Huh. Before you came today I was doing five little video emails that we’re mailing out to people about vision. Over a third of our resources go out of our church every year. It would be very easy for us to take that money and do it on mass mailers, advertisements, special events…

JACOBS: Build…

ROBERTS: Yeah, I’m telling you, and so, I mean, uh, I mean, Sunday, I mean, financially it’s tight. Our bills are paid, but, I mean, it’s incredibly tight right now. And I said, you know, guys, you know, it’s a question of, do we really want to quit planting all these churches we’re planting? Do we want to quit working around the world like we are? Do we really want to spend it all on ourselves, is that what its about? So, I mean, they’ve got to see that you’re sacrificing for that as a church, and they’ve got to see it as core to the ministry. People would be, I believe at Northwood they’d be very, I may be wrong, but I think they’d be very devastated if we went and, you know, if we started planting just a handful of churches, maybe one or two a year or whatever. They wouldn’t know how to respond to that.

JACOBS: So you’re willingness to let resources go, it contributes to the church owning the vision?

ROBERTS: It does. It does.

JACOBS: Um, do you think a pastor can successfully cast a church planting vision to his congregation if he is not willing to release finances, people, or both?

ROBERTS: It’s not going to happen. It just…

JACOBS: Have you seen examples of that? Do you know of examples?

ROBERTS: I just don’t know of anyone. I mean, who starts churches that doesn’t let go of stuff?

JACOBS: So there really is, maybe, in your mind, a correlation between, you know, a guy that’s willing to plant and a guy that’s willing to let it go?

ROBERTS: I think you have to. If you don’t, here’s what we want. We want our pie and eat it too. And I think the big challenge with God is, how do we redefine our metrics? That goes back to being the biggest church in the area or churching the area. And every time, I promise you, the metrics of churching the area are far more strategic than the biggest church in the area.

See, we don’t get that. So I hear guys sometimes, some of my megachurch buddies, they’ll say things like, I just don’t want to start a little church of 100 people, what a waste of time. But they don’t get it. Church multiplication movements are small units that

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multiply. Not big units. There’s never been a church planting movement of megachurches in the world. Ever. Maybe it’s going to happen, I seriously question it.

But I don’t view churches of 100 as sick or, if its sick and unhealthy its not because its got 100 people. Sociologically, most people relate to 60 to 100 people at best. So that might be a very healthy church. One of the churches right now we started, I can tell you story after story like this. A guys has 125, two years old, they’re working on their third church. That’s health to me.

JACOBS: So, yeah, the metrics have changed. How does that, for example, in a suburban community like this, I’m in a suburban community, 125 is a tough number just in terms of sustainability so how does that, how do you think through that issue?

ROBERTS: I don’t think it is, depending on what you do with it. Okay, so for example, this guy who’s got 125, meets in a school, down the line, they’ll get a building. They’ll grow steady. And I think at that 125, what he’s doing, he’s setting his DNA, so that as he does grow over time, he’s gonna, that’s not even going to be a conversation in his church.

We’re seeing a lot of guys doing that, I mean, all over the place. It’s not that hard to sustain, unless you’re going to structure it like a real traditional church. You gotta have a, you know, a senior pastor, and a music guy and a youth guy. You start putting all that staff on a church of 120, put a building in there, no it’s not doable. But you’re going to have to raise up the level of your leadership. You know what’s interesting, churches that are engaged in their city, we don’t go in and say, “Start a Sunday. What we say is go in and engage your city. Where is the biggest needs of your city? Or, what is your core group made of? You know, what are their giftings, what are their abilities, what are their jobs? Lets focus on one part of that and go in and tackle it. There’s all kind of press that comes on that.

JACOBS: Yeah.

ROBERTS: I mean, people want to, I have one guy who went in, you know, he had a couple nurses. So the next thing you know they’re focusing on clinics. Well the next thing he knows he’s got all these unchurched doctors there helping him do a free clinic in this inner city area, so when he starts his church, guess what he’s got? He winds up with doctors who wind up accepting Christ. Well, who did that attract? Other doctors. That guy went into a blue collar area and is winding up with an affluent church. You know, over time, just by virtue of the people but what are they doing? They’re connecting to engage the city.

JACOBS: And it’s just so different…

ROBERTS: Here’s the biggest shift that’s taken place, Tim. I don’t know how old you are, but.

JACOBS: Thirty-six.

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ROBERTS: Okay, you’re a good age. There’s a big shift of people that are planting churches thirty-five and below, thirty. You, probably, because you’re studying this, you’d probably fit into that younger category. Here’s what they’re doing: The guys that think more old school are thinking more in terms of, how am I going to go in and get my church up and going? And you get younger guys and, what, their question they’re asking is, how do we engage our city? And if you engage your city you’re going to get a church, you’re going to get a church, because its discipleship at a core today. But if you just focus on, we’re going to get that service going, there’s a lot of resentment right now. I mean, for the first time when we went into our building, we were referred to as a megachurch. We were a megachurch all along. But we had a little room that held 450-500 people. So when you’re having six worship services, they don’t feel it, you know what I’m saying? But now they do. And that, there was not a single positive term, megachurch, the only person who liked that, generally, you’ve heard this said but its true is the pastor.

Most people don’t like the concept. Even if they like their own megachurch, they don’t like the concept…

JACOBS: Yeah, all the things that go along with it, you know, all the, um that’g great. So, have you and you kind of already said this but I need to ask this for the interview, have you challenged people from the congregation to join the churches you’ve been involved in planting, and would you say that that’s just increased the vision more?

ROBERTS: All the time.

JACOBS: So you’ll just say, “Hey, you guys want to go with this guy, he’s planting the church six miles down the road?”

ROBERTS: Here’s what we do, we don’t have calling out services. You’ve got thirty churches going on at any one given time, it’s just not feasible. But if you want to come here as a planter and start a small group and multiply that small group, everybody you multiply is yours. Take ‘em.

JACOBS: So that’s different from, tactically, that’s different from maybe what you used to where you’d bring a guy up and say, you know…

ROBERTS: We did that probably two or three times where it’s you’re going to take these guys and you’re going to go out of the church. But here’s what you’ve got to realize. When you do a massive multiplication of churches every year, or you’re doing ten or more, that’s just not a feasible strategy.

JACOBS: Right.

ROBERTS: But on the other hand, if they’re coming here for a year and they’re going to come and start a small group from scratch and they’re going to start in this area, or they’re even going to take people with them to Colorado, we see that all the time, rock and roll, man. We’re fine with it.

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JACOBS: And you’ve encouraged, at the same time then, you’ve encouraged people from your congregation to contribute financially to the churches you’ve been involved in planting. You’ve been a part of that as well?

ROBERTS: [NOD]

JACOBS: And, what do you think, what percentage of a church budget do you think an aggressive church planting church should allocate to that kind of ministry, church planting?

ROBERTS: We just got through working on our budget. Of our total receipts, about five percent of our budget goes just to church planting in America.

JACOBS: In America. Great.

[End of Interview]

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APPENDIX B

INTERVIEW WITH BRIAN HOOK

JACOBS: The first question is, do you think it’s critical for the senior pastor of a church plating church to be primary driver between the church planting effort?

HOOK: I do. I think that, obviously, the leadership of the church needs to be in full support of it, but I do believe that when push comes to shove it seems as if its easy for leadership, and even the members of the church to sometimes protect the pastor or protect the internal functions of the church. And so, to have a pastor that says, “We’re not going to be in a protect mode but we’re going to be in a risk mode, we’re going to be in an outward focus, we’re going to be in a deployment focus.” We call it “out” at our church. If you don’t have somebody that has that apostolic leaning, I believe, that Bob has and others have, then it typically is easy to become very reclusive and inward focused. Especially when the economy starts going dry or things start happening, in the worldly sense. It helps to have somebody that can see that from a kingdom perspective rather than a worldly perspective and say, “You know, we’re going to move forward, so I absolutely believe that having that drive from the senior pastor’s crucial.

JACOBS: How has your senior pastor’s own walk with God formed his church planting convictions, in what you’ve observed of him?

HOOK: I think Bob has something in his experience that I’ve seen in other pastors like him. There had to be a period of brokenness, or a moment of brokenness that allows him to, not only live for self. It’s not me and God, it’s God, and I firmly believe that God has told me to do this. For him it was a moment, actually sitting in the back porch of his house where he realized, when will Jesus be enough? That was a spiritual question he had to determine in his heart. Is Jesus really enough, or do I have to make up a little bit for what Jesus isn’t enough for, you know? Is it Jesus and Bob, or is it just Jesus? So he was broken. And that was a period of tough times at the church, back in the early 90’s. And so that spiritual journey helped him.

And then soon after that, God spoke to him about, when will Jesus, not only when will Jesus be enough but what if the church were the missionary? That was the next question. So, instead of sending out missionaries, what if the church was the missionary?

JACOBS: You know, I noticed that the church, when it came up on my Facebook, you can check in where you are, you know, and it said, so when I showed up here yesterday it said Northwood Church for the Communities. HOOK: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s, when, when he went down that path, what if the church were the missionary, he also, kind of a subpoint of that, in his journey was, so how does that play out as far as being the biggest church. Do I be the biggest church or can we church the community? So he began to deal with that spiritual question and then it led to us planting churches, new communities.

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And so, you know, on a given Sunday there may be, I don’t know, there may be 30,000 people attending around us that the church has started, started these churches. So, I don’t think its wrong to have a big church and plant churches. For whatever reason, though, we’re not the biggest megachurch in the world. We’re 2000-2500 on a given Sunday. But we’ll have thirty, thirty-five thousand in attendance in those churches. And they’re all autonomous. They’re not multi-sites, not that that’s bad, but they’re all autonomous. They make their own decisions and have their own budgets.

JACOBS: You know its interesting when you, because that’s been said several times, I think, you know, Bob’s said it, you know, we’re a megachurch, but, you know, we’re not the biggest church around. And, you know, where I live, you know, you’d be right up there. But it’s just amazing coming here to Dallas and just going, Okay, now I can see what they mean where they’re like, Well, we’re not the little kids on the block, by no means, but you’re also not some of these places that you walk around and you just go, are you kidding me? I mean, this is just…

Anyway, so that’s interesting. So what God stories or symbols have occurred that have strengthened his church planting convictions? That maybe the church knows about. What has God done here, that maybe through Bob or maybe because of what Bob has done that the church has experienced that have become symbols of, this is what God has wanted Northwood to do?

HOOK: Well, I think that one of the stories is the fact that we love our city. We love this community. Because we love this community and this city and we want to see every single person, you know, see and hear Jesus, we really want to church this community. And so we know that we can’t do that. And there’s no way in the world one church can do that.

So I think for us, without a city vision, a city focus, without a kingdom focus in the city then I don’t think we’d be planting churches. We’d be building our own church. But because of the stories that emerge from these different churches and what God has individually done in their lives it strengthens us. So, I think the individual stories of a church that says, our focus is India, or our focus is Afghanistan, or our focus isn’t Vietnam its this country. And then to see the local engagement of these churches, it realizes that, every time we plant a church, we really do reach three communities. So, how in the world are we going to be intentionally in India, five, ten times a year? Or, how intentionally are we going to be in Afghanistan five, ten…

So, its not just our community, it’s how we connect globally. So if we put the DNA in that church, and they take the DNA of being locally engaged, globally engaged, as well as church multiplication, how in the world are we going to be able to do that? We can’t. So, hearing the stories of how people are engaged in Afghanistan, or hearing the stories of how people are engaged in South Bonton in Dallas, through a church that we’ve planted, those are the stories that drive us. Because it reaffirms in our mind every time we hear it, that, “Wow, we never could have done that on our own.”

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JACOBS: Oh, I see, that’s interesting.

HOOK: And so, those stories open up the reality that we could not have been engaged in India.

JACOBS: So there’s really a connection that flows back to Northwood.

HOOK: ‘Cause we want them to own the DNA. We don’t care how their vision statement is, what their logo looks like, what their core values are. We don’t care about that. But they do need to be engaged locally, they do need to be engaged globally, and they do need to be planting churches. If they do that, then they’re going to do far more than anything we could have done on our own. And so, that’s the beauty of it. So hearing those stories; a planter called me yesterday and told me how he took, they planted a year ago, and he took four nurses and a couple of doctors to the Fulani people to sit in there, and to hear the stories of how they were in the bush for days on end engaging with the Fulani people, and how they know the king there of the Fulani people, and how they’re engaging with the Fulani people. That’s a church there of 125, they just started. And to see that church engaging with the Fulani people, even though it’s just a brief part of that story, he said to me, he said, we have committed to the life of our church to the Fulani people.

JACOBS: Now the Fulani people, just, cause, that’s very… HOOK: They’re in Nigeria.

JACOBS: Nigeria. Man, that’s…

HOOK: We never would have been able to do that.

JACOBS: Yeah. Right, right. So then, relating that back to vision, certainly the focus is not to glorify the leader, but to really try to get at what the leader is capable of generating, does that become something where, well, let me try to ask it a different way. The church obviously believes that Bob deeply believes in church planting.

HOOK: Mmm-hmm.

JACOBS: And that’s a key factor in them being willing to do it…

HOOK: [Nod]

JACOBS: So these stories are just kind of more evidence.

HOOK: Yeah, exactly.

JACOBS: So do you do a lot of storytelling around here?

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HOOK: We do. We don’t do near enough, though. Cause I don’t know that a church can do enough. But I love to hear more because stories drive movement. You know, ideas don’t drive movement, music and drama don’t drive movement, stories drive movement. So stories of planters and what they’re doing drive movement. So we’re going to be doing more and more of them, mainly because we’re planting more and more churches. It’s easier to have one guy, or a couple show up on a Sunday and tell the story every few months, but now we have potentially thirty plants this year so. Thirty plants, you know, if we did one video, one story, thirty weeks out of the year that’s more than half of the weeks that we can be telling birth stories. So that’s our focus is to have, you know, every other week, or every two weeks have a birth story from a church plant. And to even begin our service with that. Because everybody likes a birth. Everybody, a family likes to hear of a new birth. And so there’s nothing that will excite a congregation more than knowing that we had another birth. And so if we can tell more and more of those stories, on a very practical scale, it helps people know that’s where our money is going, and we’re not just giving to somebody’s salary, or to the lighting system, or chairs, we’re giving to church plants and we’re being about the kingdom. And so to have those stories on a weekly basis or a bi-weekly basis is our goal for this next year.

JACOBS: And just going back, and then we’ll go on to the next section, when we talked about, when you talked about Bob being out in the back porch, does the congregation know that story?

HOOK: They do. He’s told that story numerous times, he really has.

JACOBS: Has that become maybe part of the ethos? HOOK: It really has. I mean, there’s two questions, When will Jesus be enough, and What if the church were the missionary? And I think its important for the church to own those stories of the planter. It’s not a, that’s not a prideful thing. Those are two questions that God told the leader, so we see that throughout history that God speaking to leaders and that people will follow that. When a leader says, this is what God told me, and then you see that evidenced out. And it, it just rings true. Cause all of us have had that question, too. It would be different if he said, “God said to me I want to go to Mars. Well he didn’t say that, he said, when will Jesus be enough? That’s a question that every single person has to answer in their own life, but because that was his question and what that led to, with what if the church were the missionary, that’s something that, that’s kind of a revelation that changed my thinking. Because I came from a background of, the church just sends missionaries. Which is good, but what if the church were the missionary? That’s what God calls all of us to be. And so that was one thing that really rocked my world and it also has changed other people. But he probably tells that story two or three times a year, because you have new people, and its important to keep reiterating that.

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JACOBS: You know, that’s really cool that you say that because we talked a little bit yesterday about it. And it was cool because at one point he almost shared the same frustration that I guess has been a lurking thing in the back of my mind where for me, part of the pursuit of all this is, look we can read church planting books, we can go to church planting conferences, we can talk about it. But at the end of the day there’s a line in the sand, are you going to do it or not. And are you willing to take the risk, are you willing to change the culture, are you willing to, and that’s what I’m thinking, it’s got to be, the hunch here is that its gotta start in the heart of the leader and then somehow its gotta get communicated.

So the next part, and this might be an obvious answer but I just want to ask it, Do you think your senior pastor thinks both methodologically and theologically about church planting? And when I say theologically I want to clarify, these questions have to be approved, and certainly for the sake of clarity certain language has to be used. When I say theological, I don’t mean a tight, lofty, cerebral theological grid, I mean biblically, you know, not just from a sense of program driven but God, Bible driven so hopefully, that’s, but do you think your senior pastor thinks both methodologically or theologically.

HOOK: When you say methodology, you’re talking about owning the methods, as far as our church, the methods as how to plant, or, explain methods. I got theological.

JACOBS: Yeah, yeah, methodologically I’d be referring to, as a strategy, or a program, or an engine for growth, kind of a thing.

HOOK: Got it. Well, I think the answer is both. We really do have methods that we like, but the DNA is more important. The methods, we want churches to plant churches, so we’re more interested in not necessarily planting, adding churches, but in adding, starting multiplications. So, part of our method is to multiply, not add. Not to start a church, and a lot of times I’ll see pastors that are excited about planting a church and they’re real pumped about that.

And I think, that’s tied to theologically, because, I don’t see anywhere where it says to just add. It says to be fruitful and multiply. And so theologically is tied to our methods, so, it drives our methods, so we do multiplication, we do identify disciples. We do believe the kingdom teaches that we are to make disciples and we are to engage society and theologically we believe God says, “I’ll plant my church.” Jesus says, “I’ll plant my church.” So we believe that ultimately, theologically, Jesus plants, but we make disciples, we engage society. So a church planter isn’t so much a church planter as he is a church discoverer – he really makes disciples, engages society, and the church emerges. We discover what God is doing, I think that’s a theological premise. It’s a different method than, I’m going to plant a church and hope someday we make disciples to engage society. That’s different.

JACOBS: Right

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HOOK: So theologically we follow the Kingdom, disciple, we make disciples, we teach them to engage society and the church emerges. Jesus says I’ll build my church so you begin to discover what God’s doing in that. So theologically, that is how we do that. We also believe in multiplication because we believe that, we believe based on Ephesians 3, it says that there is a divine purpose involved, there is a mystery that Paul says now is being revealed and, what is this divine purpose? Well, really the divine purpose, the eternal purpose, as Paul states it is eternal, there were only three that were eternal. That’s God the Father, Jesus and Son, and the Holy Spirit so, that’s community.

And then they say, let us make man in our image. And then he tells the man its not good for the man to be alone so he creates woman, and then he says, be fruitful and multiply. So they are to create these divine communities of families. So all throughout we believe that it is, its not just a good idea methodology to plant churches. It is part of the eternal purpose of God.

JACOBS: Yeah.

HOOK: So we are not executing a kingdom mandate of his divine purpose. That wasn’t just a good idea.

JACOBS: You know, part of the reasoning behind that question, when I had to go back and do the literature review and try to trace, you know, the writing on church planting, there was a real frustration of more, academically, not academically, but more theologically minded or missiologically minded writers like Stuart Murray, and Van Erkul, something, and a couple other guys, who were saying, who were frustrated, because they were saying, “Everybody wants to plant churches, or guys are planting churches because they’re saying, we have the Great Commission, we’ve got to plant churches, but they’re planting, if the momma’s sick, or doesn’t have the right, if they don’t understand who they are as a church, then they’re planting other churches who don’t understand who they are.” So the reason this question came about was because there was a real frustration, up until about 2000, where writers were going, okay, because you know, you have guys out there, 10 ways to start a church and some of the more methodologically oriented writers who were doing good work because they were watching guys dying like Bob Logan saying, the whole swimming across the, to Catalina and, you know, I’m watching guys drown. So he’s like, throwing them a life raft. They weren’t criticizing Logan they were saying we can’t be so heavy on the how-to that we’re really forgetting what are we really doing here, what, you know like asking questions like, what is the church, what is mission, what is incarnational, and all those things, so that’s where it comes…

HOOK: I agree with that, and I think that whoever is saying that is right on, that we really need to step back and ask ourselves why. And we need to also ask ourselves who. Who’s planting? And I think the who’s really important because its not so much about how, its about who. Who’s building, who’s planting? Is Jesus planting, or is the person planting? And if Jesus is planting, that’s a disciple he’s using to do that, and if it’s a church that emerges, that’s two or more that are gathered in my name. It’s people that hear the voice

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of God, and they move out in community and they plant together. So I think it’ s really important during the early stages of a church plant to see the who, who’s involved in this, is Christ the essence?

Because I think essence and form are two different things. Essence is Christ, but form is what we’re seeing right now, we’re seeing a lot of things that look like the church, they smell like the church, they have an “A” frame that looks like a church plant, they have a nice logo that gives the appearance that they are but Christ doesn’t exist, He doesn’t go to church there and so I think that it’s important to know that the essence needs to be always Christ and so the essence is always there if Christ says I build my church, you open up the hood and there’s a bunch of disciples there, there’s a bunch of people that know Jesus and Jesus’ life. I don’t want to get off on preaching but the reality is we’re not pointing our fingers at anybody, we’re just saying that there’s a lot of, a lot of so called churches out there, church plants out there that do not have Christ as the essence so…

JACOBS: And you know, again, some of that is, without trying to steer this conversation in a certain direction

HOOK: but that’s theological though

JACOBS: Well, that’s the thing, so then, flowing out of that and dealing with our issue of trying to connect those concepts to the key factors that communicate a church planting vision because that’s really what we’re about, we’re saying what are senior pastors gonna identify as key factors of casting a church planting vision at the church and part of that is that theological piece so what role has presenting that theological piece or rational taken in casting vision for a church planting here at Northwood?

HOOK: Well, I think that we have had to come back to, over the last couple of years, to the drawing board and see what kind of disciples we’re making because you will produce that which you are and so if you are planting 30 church plants or 50 church plants or 100 church plants, whatever, you know the student is going to be like the teacher and so, it doesn’t say the student is going to be like Jesus, it says the student is going to be like the teacher so

JACOBS: Interesting.

HOOK: We’re going to teach them whatever we are and we’re not real comfortable at the disciples we’re making, we believe we can make better disciples we believe that there’s a disciple to be made that’s better than what we’re producing that has more peace and patience and love and kindness so how does that look so we’re trying to do is to look back at the making of disciples and be very, very, very basic about Ephesians 4 and looking at how these disciples were made and learn from other people around the world at how they’re making disciples, radical disciples willing to give their lives for Christ, well, at the core of that what made them, and if you look at what makes them it’s really them in community giving it all up in humility in hearing and obeying so , the curriculum is hearing and obeying God and so we need communities here at Northwood that hear

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and obey God and that’s your curriculum, you know people ask you what kind of curriculum do you follow, we hear and obey God, we open up our bible, we hear Him, we listen to each other, we hear Him and we obey and that’s not a bad prerequisite for a new church plant community that we are about to hear and obey God, that’s what we do, we hear and obey. Well, that answers your question but that’s what we’ve come back to. We’ve had to determine in our minds we want to make good disciples, better disciples than what we’re doing and if we make the kind of disciples in the bible, um, then this city should have been changed 25 years ago, but it’s not. This city if not any better off than it was, so, if the answer is church planting well, then this city should be really changed because we made a lot of churches so the question is what kind of disciples are we making, you know?

JACOBS: Well, and that, so then what, and that does get us down the road, what aspects of theology then, does the senior pastor, in this case Bob, see as vital for the church to understand in order for them to be excited about church planting, what would you say?

HOOK: Well, I think that there is a focus on the “up aspect using” our “up” is that, the blueprint of what is this all about? So it’s a big kingdom blueprint that it’s about the kingdom of God and it’s about hearing God so that’s the up aspect, you need to hear God, you need to hear God, not only are we a church but you’re a church you’re a resident, the holy spirit lives in you, you should be hearing God that aspect.

JACOBS: How is that communicated?

HOOK: It’s communicated from the pulpit, it’s communicated in our cells, it’s communicated in leadership training, we’ve, over the last year have trained, I think we’ve trained our hundredths leader now to go out and start new groups, new communities

JACOBS: Cells?

HOOK: Cells, and we are excited about it, the answers not cells, the answers Christ but we’re using the cells to teach the up and the in, the in would be, you know instead of looking to a pastor, pastor each other, shepherd each other, you know Ephesians 4. Encourage one another, pour in to one another, those aspects are important, teach one another and the out focus would be the evangelism and you know the evangelism not in the prayer, prayer but, go out in your sphere of influence, go out with family, go out in your jobs and your neighborhoods. Go out into Keller and Halthom City and Vietnam which is our focus points and who is it in those communities, those sphere’s of influence that need to be in the kingdom. And to teach people that and do it on really three different levels, individually you can hear from God and do all those, in a cell concept you can do those and then when we gather together in a bigger setting you’re hearing that so you’re hearing the same thing no matter what, no matter where you are and our Sunday is driving what our communication is in our cells and our cells are driving what we do on a daily basis so we haven’t always been clicking on all cylinders in those 3 areas mainly because you’ve got 3 different people or 3 different staff members going 3 different directions and that’s not going to be the case anymore, we have the same focus and some

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of these cells have turned into church plants which would be a totally different way of church planting.

JACOBS: It would be, so this kind of answers the next question, I asked you this before, but would the average person in your congregation, pulled aside, could they articulate, I don’t mean a high, mighty, theological, you know, explanation that would be a scholarly thing but I mean a basic, theological or biblical rationale, “Hey guys, why does Northwood plant churches?” kind of a thing, what do you think they would be able to say?

HOOK: I think the average member over the last two years can’t do that. Those are one of those things you can’t grandfather in. I think people who have been here a long time would say that, I think there’s new people that would say that, there’s a always a middle group that I would say, wouldn’t say that. They’re the attenders that come on a regular basis, involved in certain activities but boy, if they miss that story or something on a Sunday, they don’t get it. It’s not the people that have come recently and it’s not those that have been here forever, it’s those people that are in the 2-5 year range that may not know anything about it and they’re not involved as much and I would say out of our entire church on a Sunday morning out of about 2500, and I’m guestimating that number could be well over 6-700 –people.

JACOBS: Is that important? That the people know that?

HOOK: I do, I think it is important. It’s important for many reasons but, I think the reality is you’re always going to have that group. But, I think that if you do discipling correctly like we’re trying to, it lowers that number considerably and it takes people from being attenders to owners and stakeholders of what’s going on and I think if you could make people owners and stakeholders they’re no longer critics of it, and critic being, you can be a critic just by being indifferent. If people don’t know about it, they’re a critic, you know, they’re against it right off the onset. That’s just who we are as humans. And, I think if you make them owners and stakeholders of it, they’re looking at it as, “we church plant, not Bob, we do it.”

JACOBS: One challenge to this whole thinking came out of Larry Osborne’s book, Sticky Teams and he didn’t challenge this per say, but he challenged the common notion that in order for a church to pursue a certain direction the leadership has to have a complete buy in from the congregation as opposed to permission from the congregation, and so I kind of thought about that, but would you say that you guys are comfortable with permission or are you pushing for buy in?

HOOK: With the people that have been here a long time we want buy in. For those that are new we want buy in. For those that are in that middle section, we want permission. In other words, we don’t want anybody to be critics of it, permission means that as members we are all giving to this, we are financially tithing to this, we’re talking about it, we’re praying about it, that’s permission. You know, buy in could be not only am I giving permission for it but I’m helping church planters, I’m coaching, I’m going on trips with

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them, they’re trained, I open up my house and I give them a place to sleep when they come in, I may be part of a cell that becomes a church plant, that’s buy in. But permission, that helps too. Give us some money, that great. Permission to us isn’t, “we heard about it and that’s cool.” That’s not permission, in a way, that’s critical because you’re not doing anything. You’re still sitting on the bench.

JACOBS: That interesting because even doing something though would be in a lot of people’s minds, if it’s action there’s gotta be some buy in where as opposed to and in the context of that like he’s saying if you start a new service or a new kind of style or a new ministry do you have to get everybody on board right away and I just want to make sure, as we’re thinking this thing through, we’re leading the congregation towards a direction, you guys are like 3 or 4 steps ahead of most people because the church planting this is like a no brainer, of course that’s what we do but now you guys are taking it a step further, basically we’re handing the church planting baton over to you in a sense is what I’m hearing you guys say.

HOOK: Yeah, we’ll see some people plant churches out of our church, we’ll see groups that will leave and be a part of that in the cell concept in the future but we’ve got buy-in. We just gave a youth minister, we’re sending him off to Colorado to plant a church and we’ve had people come out of our youth group that have helped people go on trips, that’s buy in. I can tell you this though, we’re not going to wait for people, for all of us to have buy in. That’s just not possible in a church plant because you’re not going to get that. There’s always going to be the people that I think, like I said earlier in our first question, that we need to protect, we could be doing more with this money, especially during these down times, you know, “Why are we doing away with the bulletins,” we would rather give money to a church planter than do our own bulletins, that’s starting this Sunday.

JACOBS: That’s cool

HOOK: You see what I mean? We could either keep printing our bulletins and making it look real pretty, during this tough time and not do church plant or keep doing church plants and do away with our bulletins, half the bulletins get thrown away anyways, nobody reads them, so we’ll do away with the bulletin. And there’s a lot of people that say, “I would rather have the bulletin, I’d rather know what’s going on in my community”. Well no, I’d rather keep going with church planting, we’ll print bulletins again but for not we’re cutting back.

JACOBS: Now, as the church planting director, I’m working with vision 360, has the economy affected the amount of churches that are being planted right now or are they still going forward?

HOOK: They are still going forward. The amount of amount of money that we give them has decreased considerably and I think what has happened is there isn’t as much, for instance with vision 360, as opposed to maybe a couple of years ago, being a vision 360 supported church, now it’s a vision 360/Acts 29/Baptist supported church. So, here’s a lesson I’ve learned: less money does not prevent church planting. If a guys going to do it

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he’s going to do it. If anything, it may help us in the assessment process of who’s the real deal and those real deal guys are going to find the money no matter what.

JACOBS: Now we’re at the last part here. The last question was do you think your senior pastor could have successfully cast a church planting vision without communicating a theological rational as we’ve been talking about for church planting.

HOOK: Boy, Bob may have been able to do that because he’s just really good, but because he is a man of God he has cast that theological principle so I would not say he couldn’t do it. You know, gifted guys can cast vision without the bible and he’s gifted in getting people motivated. He could have probably done many different things in life that were non-Christian so I wouldn’t put it past him to be able to do that but because he’s a man of God and because we have godly people at our church I don’t know if the buy in would have been there, let me just put it that way, the buy in has been deeper because he has cast theological principles. JACOBS: How important is it, for Northwood for example, the congregation to know Bob is willing to let resources go in order to plant a new church? Is it important for them to know that?

HOOK: Yeah, it is because it goes back to the stakeholders, if they’re going to be stakeholders and give to the budget that’s very important. We dedicated a whole month in December for casting a vision for church planting and casting a vision for global engagement and we’ve raised a half a million each year to go to that, so it is important that he cast that vision and let’s people know that the money is going, if we don’t they won’t give money and we have about 20% that goes out for missions already out of our budgeted money in addition to the half million we give so unless Bob plans on giving that money, it’s pretty important.

JACOBS: When they see that he’s willing to do that do you think that adds to the credibility at all?

HOOK: Absolutely, because I think that most people understand, I’d say that all the people understand in the times we live in now, I think they know that we could probably do away with church planting and make it a lot more easy and comfortable here, I think most people know we could do that, that’s an option. Let’s face it, when a pastor says we’re still moving forward we’re not going to cut our budget during this time, we’re going to continue to plant churches, as a matter of fact, we’re going to increase it to about 400%, the smart business person out there says, “hm, that means they’re cutting back on a lot of other areas…a lot of other areas, including their own finances, including their own raises, including things they could be doing”. I think that’s great credibility.

JACOBS: You know, it’s one thing I’ve noticed being here a few months ago and yesterday and today, you know you have a beautiful building, it’s very nice but it doesn’t have an ostentatious factor to it, you kind of get that when you walk in, you can tell that’s there’s probably been some modifications along the way, that you’ve had to make some

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changes, it doesn’t seem like the church is here for the facility. Even though the facility is nice, don’t get me wrong, it’s a nice place, you can repaint that door frame but you’re probably thinking I can do that later.

JACOBS: Do you think The senior pastor or any senior pastor can successfully cast the church planting vision to his congregation if he’s not willing to release finances or people or both?

HOOK: I doubt that, I think that’s part of the deal to give, you’ve got to give, you’ve got to be practicing it, he’s a practitioner, he’s not going to call us to do something that he’s not willing to model not only in his own life, but in the life of the church. I don’t know how you would be able to do that. I have seen churches that have tried to be church planting churches that aren’t willing to make the sacrifices and it doesn’t work.

JACOBS: What resources has this church, or Bob been willing to direct from other church needs in order to pursue the church planting vision

HOOK: What we’re doing with the bulletin, that’s a very noticeable thing you’re going to notice this week, I think we haven’t taken raises, not that we need raises, I won’t tell you how much I make but I haven’t had a raise since 2008 and that’s unusual for me because when you’ve got 4 kids you usually get a raise for that, you usually get a raise for this. Bob’s pretty set on, you know what, we’re privileged to be able to get paid to do this as equippers and we get paid more than a lot of people globally and we live a lot better than most people globally but, we also believe that, hey, church planters shouldn’t be making $90-$100 if you’ve got 20 people either so we tell them too, and I think to give us credibility we have to live it and then to model that not only for our members but for our planters and to say, you know you can go work another job too, it’s okay if you’ve got 30 or 40 people, you don’t have to go to your denomination and get $90,000 so I think that’s one example that we’ve done away with, we’ve given up raises, we’ve given up bulletins, I mean it all comes back to you and I think with the bulletin, that’s an attender thing, right? We want to give a good bulletin but we’re going to do away with that and raises, all of us that are on staff, we like to make more money, it’s okay, that’s a natural thing well, we have to do that so…I think when you give up things like that, we want a children’s building and we wanted it last year, we can’t have one right now.

JACOBS: And I wonder how much like even something as small…well, that children’s building, that’s huge!

HOOK: I know because that would reach people locally, that’s tough one, that’s the difference between good and great because every one says, “you’ve gotta give it to the kids”, well, all that could do is bleed into consumerism and draw people from other churches and so it gets into that competition

JACOBS: then you might end up with that 2-5 year like your talking about, those people that are here to shop and are they really going to buy into that…

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HOOK: That’s right.

JACOBS: Wow, so that’s just cool to hear that.. I was going to say, the bulletin thing will be interesting, you wonder if it’s going to have the opposite affect, meaning on one hand you’re saying were cutting the bulleting but when they find out why it may be something that actually pushes the vision further…

HOOK: It could be…

JACOBS: because people will go, “you know what? That’s a good point.”

HOOK: Let’s hope so. I’ve lived so long in the Baptist world that to just not have a bulletin it just doesn’t seem right. But it’s ok.

JACOBS: We went down to one sheet of paper that’s printed on both sides with a little perf..it’s not totally flimsy but it’s a little but harder but from the whole fold out with the inserts to the color…

HOOK: And that’s what we’re doing away with…we’ll have something, we’ll have a page or something but it’ll be noticeably different.

JACOBS: But culturally though, if people are use to this , but what does it say? You go to a play, you go to an opera you go to whatever you get the program and it’s like here we are you get the program and you’re going, “well actually…no you don’t”.

JACOBS: How has your senior pastor influenced the allocation of funds to the church planting ministry”

HOOK: I think he goes to bat almost every year… know he goes to bat every year for church planting and I think looking at the budget this year, it was tight and we cut some things we didn’t need and he pushed that on my end to cut some things we may not need and then he pushed church planting and actually he did go to bat for me and say we do need to keep this salary at this amount which was very personal and that was a good thing and I think saying we need to put money where the people are, the planters, the person that’s equipping them, let’s cut some of these other things, maybe we don’t’ need a booth at the exponential conference, maybe we don’t need to go to Exponential this year, maybe we don’t need to be hanging out because honestly, what’s the point” We’ve cut some money on traveling, we’ve cut some money on things that every single other church planting church is doing and do I really need to go hear 30 somethings preach about church planting one more time. Do I? And, that’s the point, it’s really fun for me and it’s really fun for some of our planters but at the end of the day we’re not even teaching what they’re talking about so why be there and that can save you thousands, so we had to cut that and so that cuts down some of those fun trips and so instead of being somewhere I may be just sitting here, I can’t go to Catalyst, I’m sitting here not that that’s a bad thing, I love those things, they’re great up things but at the end of the day what are we doing?

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JACOBS: I’m 36 and I’ve been to Exponential for the last 4 years in a row or 3 years in a row and I think there’s a diminishing return value unless you’re on the other end trying to recruit, obviously, but I’m seeing it more like bringing guys to, to expose them to stuff but it’s really good for beginner first year, second year exposure, it’s like drink from a fire hose, wow, there’s a whole world I didn’t know was out there but at some point it’s a lot of the same guys…

HOOK: It’s kind of like the bulletin, we’ll go back to it, but is it needed right now, so that’s what he’s done, he’s helped me and helped our church to cut those things we don’t need but at the same time to go to the church and say, “we’re not cutting church planting, we’re moving forward, we’re going to give them more this year to church planting and church planters and at the end of the day we are giving more, it went from, in addition to what we’ve budgeted, I think we have about $170,000 that we are going to be giving as opposed to $112,000 and so that has increased when look at it we have cut out a lot of things on our end but then he’s pushed it on the other end. When the budget’s not going up but you look at planting as going up, that’s major, so to me, money speaks volumes so other things are getting cut and church planting is going up, you kind of know where his heart is.

JACOBS: Yes…how has Bob challenged the congregation to join the churches that Northwood has been involved in planting and you’ve covered some of this before so you don’t have to be too specific.

HOOK: As far as challenging the congregation to be a part?

JACOBS: Yeah.

HOOK: I think sometimes he’ll call people out to be church planters if they feel called in that area, specifically youth, If youth are called out to be planters and plant new churches, to call them out to obviously participate in church planting, if they want to be part of our training to do that, he’s encouraged them to be a part of training our planters and if they’ve been locally engaged or globally engaged to train, so to take the average member rather than having a paid staff member to teach planters, to have the members teach them, because at the end of the day that’s what we want our planters to see is that we’re all priests, so to get these members involved creates ownership on their part so if a member can come in and teach 90-100 church planters on how to engage in Vietnam then that does a lot for them, they buy in, they consider themselves experts at that point because they are…

JACOBS: So, part of your vision then, would be to actually have your own individual church members teaching your church planters

HOOK: Absolutely… and they do, I would say half of the training is from our members…they teach how to engage locally, they teach how to engage globally, we have other church planters that come in that are not getting paid or paid staff coming in to train our planters the Kevin Calones and Superior and Kevin Cox’s , they come back and train

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the planters. As paid staff, it’s not uncommon for me to have a training and I don’t speak, it’s not uncommon.

JACOBS: But see, that kind of goes back to that earlier hypothesis that he talks about theological background, it seems to me like what you’re doing is you’re not just getting permission but you’re trying to drill down in your own membership to not only actually have them believe in it but actually be a part of it and train other leaders.

HOOK: Exactly, it’s one thing to get permission, it’s another thing to create, like I said, stakeholders. If they’re owners in it, they already have their permission.

JACOBS: And is they’re teaching it, that’s a stakeholder. So…then, this is the last question actually, how has the senior pastor challenged people from the congregation to contribute to the churches? So one was like joining, being a part of it, like leaving with and we talked about some of that before, you guys are kind of moving away, Bob said yesterday, “Look we’re going to start 30 churches and we can’t have 30 call out things and I get that so we talked a little bit about how you’re trying to have your church, your cell groups become church plants and we’ve gone though some of that and then the other aspect would be, and we talked about the finances to but I’m saying contribute financially but just to answer the question, how does the senior pastor challenge people from the congregation to contribute to the churches that he’s been involved in planting?

HOOK: The two that I really like is the Financial ones, Financial Peace is huge because they will give to this and they will give offerings, not just their tithes, which is huge but also to prayer and pray for them, it’s such a blanket thing but it’s so important to them and what we’ve done instead of saying we’ll pray and knowing we won’t, we’ll make it a monthly matter, we’ll pray monthly as a church, every Sunday, every month on a Sunday night we will pray specifically for church planters locally and globally and that’s what we’re praying for that night and we’ll have 200-300 people come to that and pray, and then our cell groups will adopt a church plant so one cell group will adopt that church planter, for instance my cell group that I have, had one of our planters at the last training come in, gives his testimony, he’s part of that cell group, I send out his email to all of our cells so they’re able to communicate to him and talk to him and talk about his needs, so we have a cell that’s praying for him as well.

JACOBS: But you’ll do a separate even on a Sunday night because you don’t have Sunday night church here..

HOOK: No.

JACOBS: But you’ll do a separate event, so that’s cool, so clearly you’ve talked about the financial peace, I mean the sacrifices, but you actually filter it in to your cell groups and then through prayer…and then prayer is, I mean we can’t overlook that by any stretch because of course we’re bringing it before the Lord but for a person to take a new church before the throne of God is involvement.

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HOOK: Well, and just because we don’t take a hundred people and plant a church anymore I surely wouldn’t discourage churches from not doing that, I would encourage that. That would be great. I think we’re in a different season now. For instance, a grandparent no longer does some things the parents do, you can’t it’s just not possible, it’s just the season we’re in. We’re going to take 2-300 and plant 2 or 3 of those a year. I see churches doing it all the time and I encourage that. That’s great.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

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APPENDIX C

INTERVIEW WITH MARK HOPPER HOPPER: That’s Phoenix. This is where the new church is, so you want to start recording?

JACOBS: Yeah, if I can – Alright we will see what’s recording here and we will be recording here, so I think we are in good shape. Alright.

HOPPER: I will let you hold that side. It’s just for a second. Our Church, we are 20 miles from where we are and you come out this way. This was all farmland, this is called an agricultural preserve. You can see those all the density up here and nothing down here. It’s all basically dairy farms and this neighborhood began to grown and it’s called East Field and now it has been incorporated and we had a few people move out there and that’s what we began doing kind of entices to look at starting the Church and today they don’t have a building but that the new Church Mark’s Church is meeting at this high school –

JACOBS: Oh, that’s fantastic.

HOPPER: But it will be very similar to what you’d find in West Phoenix, so lots of empty land and dairy farms and agriculture and then it began to build into houses and I mean you can see that, there is a lot of houses among those squares and, you know, this is a lot of houses there is thousands of –

JACOBS: Yeah, sure.

HOPPER: So I got this but we have been continuing to look for land for these guys or they are now looking – there are all grown –

JACOBS: Okay.

HOPPER: But anyway, so it can give you a little flavor, so our Church is over here it’s 20 miles from where you are sitting up to that high school, so it’s –

JACOBS: Where is the 60 freeway?

HOPPER: Sixty freeway is to North that comes right there –

JACOBS: Okay.

HOPPER: And here is the 15 freeway the city the street limelight is this kind of ground zero 15 and [limelight], so south of this is 60 and down here you can see this it’s the 91, this is Corona down here.

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JACOBS: So they’ve got a whole – yeah, that’s good.

HOPPER: And it was all this agricultural land that was at a special tax features and certain things that did not allow for development and San Bernardino county and Riverside county reassigned it or redesignated it or whatever to become residential housing. You can see the density of the housing and this was all just dairy farms, so now the house has been – and this map is certainly 8 or 9 years old.

JACOBS: Okay.

HOPPER: It gives you a feel it’s not unlike where you are in West Phoenix as far as the land gradually filled up.

JACOBS: Well, it’s nice to see some development happen in California as well because you just keep getting the idea that everybody is so opposed to it all. I think – it just seems like the Government is more opposing than anybody else.

HOPPER: No, no – they make it harder and harder.

JACOBS: They sure do. Well, and let’s see – I was going to ask you something else. So really what this whole thing is about for, you know, for the purposes of this project. I think Church planting happens the best when existing Churches get involved with it – being someone who planted basically I was well funded by the Church in California but having a parachute drop where I came in all by myself with no core team, no contacts, no anything, just kind of I am the new guy in the block and, you know, trying to make something happen out of that is a difficult thing to do and I think it’s also becoming harder for denominations to plant Churches on their own because they just don’t have the resources that it takes and they don’t have the maybe the pull that they once did, you know, people don’t move to the area looking for a Baptist Church anymore necessarily. So I think it happens best to existing Churches, so what I was trying to get you is to how – since there are so many Churches that never planted and I know in your case I imagine this is your first Church plant that you did was with the –

HOPPER: Yeah from Diamond Bar.

JACOBS: From Diamond Bar, sure. Yeah, so Diamond Bar never planted but sure it’s up until –

HOPPER: Right.

JACOBS: Then how long has the Church been in existence?

HOPPER: Okay. The Church actually began in a house in 1967.

JACOBS: Okay.

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HOPPER: I have been through the 70’s thing that is the schools, YMCA, things like that and then in 1980 they secured this property, you know, one of those miracle stories of the way some finding the property and developer – your house is next over what he said, you know, basically he split the land that he bought built the houses on one side and pretty much gave this land as far as I know. So that happened in 1980-81, this building - this first building was finished in 1983 and I came in 1988.

JACOBS: Okay.

HOPPER: So the Church has – I call, you know, the free land history almost 15 years and then post land started began the building in 1982-83, you know, it’s kind of a whole different cycle. So the Church has roots – I mean like we celebrated 39th or 40th birthday not too long ago.

JACOBS: Yeah, I guess you would after it was planted then it took you 13 to 14 years to – it took about 13 years to get your land and another couple of years to build, that sound – that’s encouraging because there are so many plants in Phoenix right now that are in that same spot – that are, you know, there are a couple of 100 people and they are trying to figure out where they are going to land permanently and there is a lot of creative things out there. Well, that’s good – that’s good background and then what I am trying to do is really look at the role of the senior pastor in catalyzing new Churches and there is really I am not trying to – I don’t have an agenda really at all. The agenda is just to learn because I am a senior Pastor and the Church that I am at was planted in 1994 and 85% of the people of the Church have been today have been at the Church for 4 years or less. So it’s gone through a dramatic, you know, change over and so it’s – there are people there have no context except that the Church has a building that’s all they really know but they don’t have roots back to, you know, when – there is a very few that do. So, you know, we are looking at Church planting and I am trying to say what – how does this senior pastor cast vision for a Church planter or really even does it senior pastor to cast vision for a Church plant. So that’s what I am trying to – that’s the narrow, narrow focus. There are so many other auxiliary things that were probably factors in this whole thing happening but I will look particularly at the leader and your experience. So just – let me just - and since you were the Church planting pastor or since you were the pastor when the Church planted here you are basically parented the Church – your experience is right down the alley of what I am trying to study here, so –

HOPPER: Okay. You ask, I’ll answer.

JACOBS: Great.

HOPPER: I understand – I think that I understand your focus

JACOBS: Good. Okay, so I have three hypothesis and, so I am going to – the questions are grouped into each three of these categories. The first question is this – do you think it’s critical for the senior pastor of the Church planting Church to be the primary driver of the Church planting effort?

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HOPPER: Yes, I think that’s what it needs to be, you know, for a variety of reasons but just to give you a little more background from me Tim is that I pastored the Church in Tucson, first of all I think I told you my dissertation at Dallas was on Church plant.

JACOBS: Okay.

HOPPER: So always kind of had that heart or that interest and it’s somewhere on the shelf of the library and I think I have a copy too – it was – I think it has been checked out three times in the 30 years since I wrote it. So it’s not a big deal –

JACOBS: Well, that’s not bad.

HOPPER: I think my kids says when we were in Dallas one time said, “let’s go find dad’s book on the shelf” but and in those days they still had the little pull cards and I think 3 people had checked it out. So –

JACOBS: Well, that’s something.

HOPPER: Well, anyway that’s always kind of being in my heart. Then we pastored out of Dallas – I went to a Church in Tucson and we were part of a little Church there – are we recording okay?

JACOBS: Yeah, I just want to make sure we are because last time I had a glitch and I will just keep going –

HOPPER: But I regret it there that we didn’t plant another Church from the Church I pastored in Southwest Tucson. We had a few families move to the north side of the city again there was a growth and yet we hesitated. We always kind of say well, we are not big enough yet, you know, we are not really ready or what happened and I think looking back that was unfortunate, we kind of talked ourselves out of it. It wasn’t a big Church, but it would have been a big step and there were a few evangelical free people there, here we were conservative Baptist and I thought at least six families they could start something up in this new growing area. So it didn’t happen there, so I came here I didn’t foresee that immediately but always kind of had it on the back of my mind and then in the early 2000-2003 we began to see some families moving from this area – from Diamond Bar out to this new community Eastvale and the slogan was you could - in my mind was you could buy twice the house for half the money. I have a house that’s 1800 square feet here in Diamond Bar, you could buy a 3600 square foot two story house in that new community for half the price. So there is this movement and so a woman out there – a husband and wife called and said he could restart a Bible study there – were still coming to our Church but they were living in this new community, good idea. But I said, you know, let’s not just start a Bible study, let’s dream about starting a Church. So –

JACOBS: So the – that thought really was motivated by you?

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HOPPER: Yes. And in addition to that I did continually share with our leaders over the years we should be thinking about starting another Church. One of the questions that came up somewhere as our Church grew, should we relocate? We only have 2.5 acres here. Should we relocate? And my heart was, no let’s stay, this is where we have land and eventually we were able to get the buildings paid off, let’s start some other Churches, let’s not leave this community, let’s not relocate and then may have been shortsighted, I don’t know. But my philosophy was let’s start some other Churches. So that was always in the mentality. And one of the ways we funded that was when we were have a surplus at the end of the year with our budget that we had more money come in than we spend. We said let’s put half of it aside to pay off our debt here, the building. So let’s put aside another 25% for our future Church plant. So we wove that in to the fabric of what we were thinking in the mid 90’s, so several years before the opportunity came. We were thinking and it was my suggestion – I don’t mean that boastly – I mean I was just saying casually how do we thinking about starting another Church – let’s start saving some money.

JACOBS: Yeah, and I totally respect your desire to just stay humble in that and I know that can put us into some weird ground we talk about, you know, it’s my idea but let me ask you follow up – as a follow up do you think – do you think that EV Diamond Bar would have planted had you not been the driver behind it?

HOPPER: Probably not. I mean I think both – because there it was my heart but also just because of my role and leadership it’s easier for me to initiate or recommend to encourage us to move in that direction but I don’t think there were others in our leadership team that were, you know, passionately thinking that we should start another Church. So I really –

JACOBS: Okay.

HOPPER: I can’t say that I don’t mean to boast but I think it probably was my idea for good or bad.

JACOBS: Right. Well, that’s exactly yeah, it’s lot of easier when it works to say it was your idea.

HOPPER: It could been a train wreck

JACOBS: Yes.

HOPPER: You know –

JACOBS: That you still have to say it

JACOBS: Well, how was your own walk with God formed your Church planting convictions?

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HOPPER: I am not sure I am going to answer this – the way you are thinking my walk with God but one of the – couple of things that make Church planting make sense. Number one is somebody planted this Church, you know, where we are all just stewards. I don’t own this place and one of these days it will be my turn to step aside and so if it’s like a few people and I leave the original story and I met some of those original people was 5 or 6 couples – there is a superintendent named Wally Norling. Wally is a legend in the Southwest Evangelical Free Church and I enjoyed knowing him personally and so Wally when he first became the superintendent in the 60’s saw that this new community in Diamond Bar, this is like in McCormick Ranch, this happened in Scottsdale in the 60’s and 70’s – there was a track of land it was a ranch Diamond Bar – it was a ranch and a corporation of Trans-America bought the property and began to subdivide it among developers not unlike what is happening in Phoenix in McCormick Ranch or Gainey Ranch maybe up at Troon.

JACOBS: Right.

HOPPER: Up there in north, so Wally had the foresight to say to a few people, “you guys just start a Church”. And they did, you know, they started in a house with I think, you know, 15 to 20 people, we have a little picture of that. So I always was thankful that somebody had the foresight to start this Church which I had inherited and had the opportunity to lead and had the foresight to get some property. So I know that’s my walk with God but I may just appreciate it, that somebody else had the foresight to do this and that therefore it only seemed to make sense we should be forward thinking to help start other Churches and I told people on this Church most of us will never go to the new Church, it’s 20 miles away although we did eventually see somewhere between 25 to 35 families induct in that new Church – some moving out there, others going from this area to help in the new Church. But I said most of us will never go to that new Church except a visit but some of our children or grandchildren might and just again this past week a daughter and son-in-law of a family in this Church bought a home in that new community. So it’s actually happening, so I don’t know about if I am answering that about my walk with God but just more was the reasoning of seeing the benefit of what others did. We have benefited and by doing this hopefully we will benefit a generation and many to come.

JACOBS: Well, and yeah, you know, that was good and so I don’t certainly want to steer it in any one direction or another but I think aspects of that will come up later as we continue to talk but that story that you just shared, of Wally and the picture did you – how have you communicated that’s – to the Church – does Diamond Bar understand – I mean you kind of shared “hey, this is what kind of made me think that we should do this – did you communicate that to the Church?

HOPPER: Yeah, I think I have used those stories on a number of occasions to say we are the beneficiaries of someone else’s faith and foresight and we want to benefit, you know, another community.

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JACOBS: Do you think that they – do you think that those stories, well, so for example the story you told about, you know, Wally and coming out here and the few families in the living room, has that story – so did you share that story?

HOPPER: Yes.

JACOBS: And do you think that was effective and the people see what you are trying to do?

HOPPER: I think so. I think people understand that and we on a couple of occasions have done anniversaries or birthdays for the Church and I love to go back and show them this is what it look like – this was just taken a piece of land and then this little group of people at a house and I think you have to paint those pictures and remind people of our roots in order to also then cast the vision what others did for us - we need to do for others, you bet, I think that helps if you can give it a historical context or –

JACOBS: Yeah, yeah, you know, that’s good. Are there any – can you think of any other what you might called God stories or symbols where God is moved in the midst of your congregation that showed the congregational like – the way I have written here what God stories or symbols have occurred that have strengthened your Church planting convictions and is the congregation aware of them, so it isn’t necessarily totally about you but has it – in what things does the congregation know that collectively can see, wow God was really in this as we moved ahead to plant the Church?

HOPPER: Well, real – I think a real critical point in the Church plant was that two men from our own staff stepped up. They were originally when we started that Bible study in 2003 I asked the guys on our staff, nobody was really enthused about starting a new Church and you’ll hear that conversation with Mark Lee later, but I actually interviewed some guys from Talbot, you know, we were scouring, we almost hired a guy once and grateful that that didn’t come about and actually Wally was a reference and gave me some insight that led me not to pursue or recommend that fellow. But then in about 2006 or 2007 our young adult guy Mark Lee came to me and said, you know, I have been praying about this and I wonder maybe God is leading me to start that new Church - to go beyond the Bible study really start something and I was excited. I hadn’t – I had initially asked him a couple of years before he wasn’t interested – happy here, good things were happening here. Now he’s said, “you know I have been thinking about praying about it.” But he had this one little condition, he said I think God wants me to take the worship leader too. Oh, and we have a wonderful worship guy named Tom that you will meet or at least you’ll hear about but it seem to be okay, you know, I mean – So we are going to give away two – what I said two of our best, you know, but I think when we then shared that with the elders and wrestled with how this would work and then eventually shared it with the Church family, I think in early January – in January of – it might have been 2006 or 2007. I think that that was a confirming thing for both Mark and Tom to step up in front of the Church and say, you know, we love it here but we feel like God’s tugging on our hearts to go start this new Church. So I believe that was a powerful affirmation and for people in the Church to hear their hearts. You know Tom especially said I can stay

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here forever, I love it here and he’s a full-time sheriff and was doing worship part-time and just a wonderful guy and so that I think was one of those stories that was a confirming thing to the Church that then energized, you know, and gained momentum and support though it was heart, you know, tugged on our hearts to let some good guys go. So I think that will be another story that, you know, just confirm.

JACOBS: You know and so kind of put just drilling down that a little bit more then. does the congregation now see itself – I mean you planted the Church and then once the Church was planted does it see itself as a kind of a Church planting Church now they see anything in the future for doing it again or what you think?

HOPPER: Well, I have shared with them that my dream is to see our Church double in this decade – in 2010 to 2020 and I have shared that my dream also is that we would start two more Churches in the next 10 years. Now, how that will happen, and where that might happen, I don’t know but I try to keep reminding people that’s something we should be doing and though this one was to the East maybe there is an opportunity to the North or back to the West, you know, where could the new Church plant be. We do not have an active committee or an active group doing anything at this point but I hope in this next decade we will be able start another Church or two, so –

JACOBS: And you’ve shared that with the congregation as well?

HOPPER: Yes, yeah it’s part of our dream for this decade is to start two more Churches.

JACOBS: Very cool. And then a final question in this section and again we’re kind of circling around, so some of the stuff comes up again, it’s okay –

HOPPER: Sure and if I repeat myself.

JACOBS: It’s okay.

HOPPER: Stop me.

JACOBS: Yeah, no, it’s okay. I actually I, you know, these questions are designed to really draw out different aspects of the same thing. How important was it that the congregation understood your passion for Church planting as you were preparing to plant this daughter Church?

HOPPER: I think it was important – I think even along with the elders, you know –

JACOBS: Okay.

HOPPER: So to able to – and convey to them convince then that this is something that we have to do.

JACOBS: Convince – okay the elders needed to see your passion?

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HOPPER: Yeah, I thing that was important for the elders to understand my heart as well as then for the congregation, so there was a buy in – and we are a congregational kind of Church and so the elders – I bring recommendations, you know, I look for their confirmation if they think I am crazy that they can tell me –

JACOBS: Sure.

HOPPER: And even with the congregation after we shared that in that January service we brought the two services together it’s an exciting day but then we had a business meeting three weeks later to vote on – to approve, you know, and only a handful of people come to business meetings but, so I think it was important, you know, for me to convey that passion and that they understood my heart in all of this and we were in an agreement –

JACOBS: You know that’s great. And just maybe going off the reservation a minute here – everyone always says go off reservation as though it’s a bad thing but now that I live in Phoenix, you know, you really – if you live on the reservation you really want to go off the reservation as quickly as you can but to just kind of to, you know, so you’ve planted this Church and how was the Church that the parent Church, the mother Church I mean I had to recover from the families that went – how did planting this Church changed the dynamic of the Church – this Church here?

HOPPER: Well, I’ll give you some of the goods and the bads. Couple of things we do – one of them was because I felt strongly that they are going to need land and you mentioned that some Churches in Phoenix – we began during that commitment – we kept those guys on our salary for the rest of that year and then in this fall they did summer projects in the community and in the fall they did monthly preview services and then literally they were on their own I think in 2008. So we supported in that way but we also started a 3 year capital campaign to raise funds to help them buy land out in that new community.

JACOBS: Wow, okay that is important.

HOPPER: And so we just give this a gift here about 2 months ago – In fact I am actually go in to go up this month to re present it – Mark Lee the pastor they came here to say thank you for our support. So we gave them about $650,000 that we have raised over 3 years, you know, on a 3 years stewardship capital kind of campaign.

JACOBS: That’s phenomenal. So this Church gave, raised $650,000 to give away to the Church?

HOPPER: Yeah. It does seem a bit strange –

JACOBS: That’s phenomenal.

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HOPPER: Especially holding that check in my hand it was hard to give away two thirds of a million dollars – JACOBS: Yeah.

HOPPER: But that was what we did it for, that was the purpose and I think part of the reason that there was a buy in for that, we have done several campaigns to help build buildings here and get them paid off but I think because we knew Mark and we knew Tom we felt they were from here, they were us – they were part of our staff and these 20, 25 to 30 families were part of us, so there was a team effort. So that – I mean it was a sense of team and let me tell you the dark side. The downside that I did not invision, let me put this in parenthesis, that one thing I asked another Church planting pastor – a pastor in Phoenix maybe you know Tom Garasha?

JACOBS: I do very well –

HOPPER: And over there on the Westside of North Phoenix they have started 2 or 3 Churches –

JACOBS: Yeah.

HOPPER: And how is that working? They never gave this kind of money away but they would take an offering and they would do a few things but he said it took a year or 2 to recover and I think we have felt that too.

JACOBS: Okay.

HOPPER: That it really seemed when we – when it finally happened it really did take I thing the wind out of our sales and I think we have kind of just plateaued for the last 2 or 3 years. I would say just this summer I feel like we are starting to grow again. So your figures taken 2 or 3 years to recover and I think there is an emotional component, you miss seeing these people - some were elders, some were good friends and, so I think that was the down side. The other side I think I didn’t foresee was a lot of comparisons that happened and they have grown – I don’t know what Dave Page told you but they were the Church planting – they were given the award for the Church plant of the year with the free Church couple of years ago. Their numbers have just been phenomenal and so I sensed here at times people kind of comparing why are they growing and we are just kind of stay in like we are and that has been unfortunate I think. One of our businessman said, “well, think of it this way, if a company like IBM gave me – this man’s in the Software industry, gave me $5million for starting a new company with nothing that would be a lot of fun, there will be no restraints, we can just go crazy. But IBM’s over here kind of steady and stable, maybe they’re growing, you understand, so, and a guy from Scottsdale Bible, I interviewed somebody over there and he said one of the struggles they had with their Churches, because Scottsdale Bibles launched 2 or 3 and they even bought land way up at Cave Creek or Central Ave. and Pinnacle Peak Road way up there they bought some land but what happened was that the fellow at Scottsdale Bible that I knew and this

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is in the last 2 or 3 years – his name is Larry Anderson he was there as an interim - he was with Young Life

JACOBS: Okay.

HOPPER: He said there seem to be a discontentment at the home Church that the new Churches didn’t share their DNA and so the DNA of our new Church is very different than us. It’s lights and sound and rock and roll and innovative – I mean no criticism, so what they were doing – they are doing a great job and they are attracting people but our style is probably been more traditional, we have, you know, planted worship and praise songs but we don’t use a handbook, I mean I think unfortunately over those couple of years as their numbers just continue to go up you felt this discontentment or subtle criticism of how come they’re growing and we’re not and why don’t we do what they’re doing.

JACOBS: Interesting.

HOPPER: That was an unfortunate un-forseen –

JACOBS: Yeah.

HOPPER: by-product.

JACOBS: Wow. Well, and, you know, so if you don’t mind me asking – this is for purposes of this project what – so your Sunday morning attendance today around now as what?

HOPPER: I would say we have about 300 in our, you know, Sunday morning service about 150 in two services.

JACOBS: Okay.

HOPPER: If you ask our size we always say we are about 300 families. It could be a widow of one or could be a family of 5 but at one time we were up to maybe 350 to 360 families. What we do is once a year we count our directory – we print a new directory and say okay how many families then we don’t count a college student that’s listed separately from his parents but so we have for years just kind of tracked that as our once a year census but clearly our attendance dropped back as we gave away those families and then I think then we had some families leave because they wanted to be more like the new church was and, so initially people that lived there and people went out to help there and I think we lost a few more that rather be more their style –

JACOBS: Right.

HOPPER: That what we are.

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JACOBS: I appreciate that – I appreciate your honesty on that. It just, you know, this is we are getting down to kind of brass stacks on this stuff and I, you know, I think what you guys have done, you know, it’s hard – it’s like maybe as a parent, you know, I look at your kids and they get in to, you know, and my son is flying through growth stages a lot faster these days than I am and he is 9, so in a few years he’s probably going to have the exact read on what the culture is doing may be even more than I will and yet who’s footen the bill on all that stuff so it’s interesting – the whole parent child dynamic is so – there is so many parallels, you know, and yet at the same time you want – your kids are kind of maybe as you see them grow they can push you a little bit as you help them but I think no, that’s – this is very very good and I just have this burning passion in my heart, you know, it’s like – if more guys – I mean this is because, you know, I am not trying to build up your head or anything, but if more pastors took your approach and we are willing weather those criticisms and storms or whatever else little bit that momentum dip to see what has happened out there, I mean – you are – anyway, but I don’t want to just put those in your mouth.

HOPPER: No, no but just to say that the reason in my mind we started that Church, one of the reasons was it was pretty unlikely that new people moving out there would very effectively invite people to drive twenty miles to come here.

JACOBS: Right.

HOPPER: Instead let’s start a new Church out there, so people can invite people that’s 5 minutes or less to the new Church. So that’s what made sense and, you know, if our heart is to see a new community reached the likelihood of us reaching it from here the size we are, the kind of Church we are that we are not a regional church of the valley, you know, like they have couple of giant ones in Phoenix

JACOBS: Right.

HOPPER: So it made sense and so they are reaching people I always say that we would never reach. So when I go visit the new Church I have been out there just two, three times, you know, we are going on the 24th to give them that big check. I am always glad to see people that we move from here that is always encouraging. It’s fun to see people that were part of the original Bible study and that they are still coming but what’s best is I see all these people I don’t know, you know, that’s the whole goal was to see all these people that we would have never have met sitting here in Diamond Bar.

JACOBS: That’s fantastic. And it’s good because even some of these kind of rabbit trails we’re taken are – you make a sentence and I am connecting it and going wow this will – this will end up – this will end up in –

HOPPER: It’s too long – it’s already.

JACOBS: So the second part has – we’re coming to second section now.

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HOPPER: Okay.

JACOBS: And I want to well – I just ask the questions and a few clarification let me know. Do you think Church planting pastors, this has to do with the building a theological or you can even say biblical, I use the word theological and what kind of sailed through my approval process on this making sure that terms are clear, but I just want to know distinction between biblical and theological and when I say theological I don’t mean high-minded, you know, sophisticated I just mean basically biblical – the biblical rational for planting Churches and how that incorporates in to casting visions when we look at now? So do you think Church planting pastors tend to think only methodologically and not theologically about Church planting?

HOPPER: Is this multiple choice?

JACOBS: I know it’s an awkward question but I want to see what you might have to say about that.

HOPPER: I think it’s a both – I mean you can see, you know, in Bible the spreading of the gospel and planting the Churches, you know, Paul in on this missionary journeys and one of things strikes me too is I remember looking and studying an Acts series unrelated necessarily to the specific Church plant but even bypass some specific, you know, he purposefully kind of targeted strategically, he went from Philippi I think to Thessalonica but he skips, is it Appelonia, one of the other church, you know, he doesn’t really stop there, so he seemed very intentional, so I think that part and also I think more from an evangelistic thinking, biblical theological thinking, that at least somebody and we throw that statistic around, I don’t know if it’s the center for world missions or who it is, says the best way to reach the un reach is new Churches and I guess I believe that and so I do believe that I can’t necessarily document that but, so new Churches are going to be more apt to reach, you know, they un reach more maybe than the established Churches I think that’s certainly a challenge for us today we are in an established community how do we reach people in this community, I think it’s hard, it’s difficult. People are established if they are going to go to Church they made up their minds are going to go it’s hard to get those that have not had that heart. So anyway, starting a new Church was, you know, is I think one of the best evangelistic tools going.

JACOBS: What role would presenting a theological rational for Church planting have in casting a Church planting vision?

HOPPER: Well, I think as I preached on it as we talked about it in sermons and in leadership meetings, you know, you did want to have a biblical framework – look what they did in the New Testament they were going about the business of starting new Churches and all and Barnabas and Silas were going back and checking all those Churches, so I think clearly we have that biblical model, so I think we try to include that, so it wasn’t just an idea but it was an idea with a biblical foundation

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JACOBS: What aspects of theology or the Bible are vital for the Church to understand in order to help them embrace a Church planting vision?

HOPPER: I’m not sure I understand your question exactly. I mean, we again probably Book of Acts was the place that we saw most of this in our thinking, I don’t know if I am answering.

JACOBS: No, that’s fine. I guess I am trying to say if you are to – well, let me give you a little bit of – alot of times this section kind of comes out of the literature review part and there is some more sophisticated missional writers who are critical of a lot of Church planting that was happening, for example in the late 20th century because it was so focused on methodology and, you know, like well, meaning methodology meaning like, you know, let’s just plant Churches but we really don’t know what a Church is or why, you know, those kinds of things or are we just planting Churches because, you know, we think it’s a good idea but the other side of it is, you know, in this case because of the resistance point I was listening to a – I was keyed in on a webinar yesterday from the Baptist guys actually on, you know, they were talking about resistance points that people had to Church planting it will cost too much and those kind of things and I’m sure stuff that might have floated around here or any place that might be considering something new. So perhaps a better way to answer to ask this question might be, you know, how do you combat that those resistance points theologically to be able to say because the assumption be that the biblical mandate will over shadow when he got those – it should over shadow the type of risks – I mean, you know, you mentioned the Book of Acts, you know, that’s great because it’s right from the Bible – I mean there are other aspects of or what we believe and what we understand about Christianity that you might have brought into the discussion when trying to make the case for church planting?

HOPPER: Well, I guess, you know, the whole mandate go and make the cycles, you know, 2 Timothy 2:2 about take away what you heard from me and share with others, you know, what they want to maybe to teach others, so that multiplying process always, another picture I use was our strawberry patch where the strawberry patch in our backyard, I don’t know if you ever grown them but they are so fun because one little strawberry plant will send out several runners and of those runners they don’t just plant one new little plant but that will go – it can go three to four times – So to me it’s a beautiful example, and our hope is what the new Church that are part of their DNA is not that just sit there and grow but in their hope or their thinking will be also to be a reproducing Church, so, you know, we’ll all be in the reproducing process. Can I give you a parenthesis here about, what did you call them, the resistance?

JACOBS: Yeah.

HOPPER: Here is the number one question that kept coming up.

JACOBS: Okay.

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HOPPER: Why do they need a Church out there? I can remember even in a public business meeting, aren’t there already Churches in that community and so why would they – why would we – even my wife asks that question, you know, I mean that’s a nice idea but aren’t there already Churches out there? I think there were several ways to answer that, one was you never have enough Churches and I really think that’s true. I don’t mean it be corny because different Churches will reach different people. Secondly, some of the Churches that are starting out there may not succeed and that’s exactly what‘s happened and ours could have been as well, you know, it was a risk that we took and we could have those staff guys back here today looking for a job, you know, I mean but in fact some of them started so small and struggled from other groups – other denominations – other Church planting groups. So there was clearly a need for – there is never enough Churches and some will not succeed and third, was because we had people out there. I think you mentioning going to Phoenix all by yourself, you started with zero. We already had a nucleus of people and don’t misunderstand that nucleus really wasn’t the ones that made the Church happened, it was the staff from here and other people still living in this area that really made the Church happen and thankfully the Bible study people and the new people it blended well together. It might not help and those original founding Bible study people could be gone but they are not, so remember I said it was fun when I go I see people from our Church, I see people from the Bible study as well as seeing lots of people I don’t know.

JACOBS: No, that’s good.

HOPPER: So that the resistance point was why another Church and we finally had to start answering that. We even had a guy in that meeting say “I have been on a website recently and they are already, you know, these many different Churches and that area, why do we need one.” So that was a frequent question that came up earlier on.

JACOBS: And so being the structure of the type – obviously a free Church more congregationally oriented, you really did have to – you really would have to get by it, you know, Larry Osborne in his sticky teams book raised an interesting issue that kind of gave me concerns when I was preparing this dissertation and preparing the questions and challenge the premise I thought because this is all about selling the vision to the congregation – the idea is that the whole congregation is gonna go, “yeah”, and Osbourne says you don’t always need buy in, all you need is permission and so there is a distinction there and so I’ve been kind of wrestling with that little bit, okay, what, you know, are there guys that just go, “hey, just don’t tell me no and I am going to do it and I’m not asking you to think this is the greatest thing,” but it seems to me, based on a few events here in the business meetings and, you know, public, you know, coming up front that you really were concerned that there was a – there was some enthusiasm on the part of the Church here –

HOPPER: And because we are a congregational Church ultimately, you know, we have elders and but ultimately the authorities that your previous skill with congregation, and I think it was important that there be that buy in.

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JACOBS: And again, if this is redundant, I apologize but how was or how is the theological rational for Church planting communicated to the Church if indeed it is? And if it’s theological I mean, you know, pointing to the biblical

HOPPER: and I think – through sermons and through messages, you know, that hopefully there is a restating from time to time that we are – excuse me that this is one of our values and it’s one of the DNA of who we want to be but I think you have to remind people because they do get comfortable and they do think, “ well, that’s fine if those guys want to do that but what about us”, and I think they are wonderful – especially was this financial gift over those 3 years it was given, pretty unusual to say we are going to raise some money to help somebody, it won’t help us, we’re going to give it away and all those -

JACOBS: It’s fantastic –

HOPPER: I think that was a good – that there was an expression of the support of that Church family because it was really, you know, you are forward expresses a lot of your value and –

JACOBS: Is Dave Page aware that you guys are doing this?

HOPPER: Yes, I think so – I think so –

HOPPER: Mark Lee had a real gracious attitude and he said, “hey, how, you know, if we get that money that’s great, if we don’t get them that’s okay, you know, God is going to provide for us” because there was a little tension at the end as we finished that 3 years campaign. Well, they don’t any land, this is where raise money to help them buy land – they didn’t find land yet, so should we hold on to that money until they do and they create – well, I send a letter out asking people if you donated to this campaign, you know, should we hold on to it until they get land or should we just give it to them now about a 50-50 split but ultimately we said, “Look, we know them, we trust them, and we don’t want to get in to something 5 years from now where there is this legal battle over this half a million dollars, so we said, “look let’s just give that gift that’s what we intended for and we will trust them to use it”. They go and buy new cars and fancy clothes –

JACOBS: Right.

HOPPER: They have to give an account for –

JACOBS: That’s right.

HOPPER: But –

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JACOBS: That’s good. Well, would you say that the average person in your congregation if you – if I want to grab someone aside on a Sunday morning and asked them to articulate – not a sophisticated but just a basic theological or again biblical rational for why the Church planted or is involved in Church planting, would they be able to do that? Would they be able to make a biblical case for Church planting?

HOPPER: I don’t know. I don’t know that the average person in the congregation could – I think our leaders could. JACOBS: Okay. HOPPER: You know I think elders and deacons and staff could do that. They could say this is why – by the way, did I tell you, again this may not come up later, when we go to our 30 or 35th anniversary we did a little video tape of Wally Norling because he was the founding father sort of – people always start we were one short of [Indiscernible] [00:45:12] and that wasn’t the case, it was Wally and he’s getting these 5 or 6 families. He wasn’t in very good health at that time and he couldn’t be at the service we were having. So we went over to his home and video taped him and I remember one of the questions, very vividly, Wally, why do you like church planting, “why?” and he said well, one of the reason is because it means more money’s going out to support missions, isn’t that interesting?

JACOBS: It is.

HOPPER: And we put that little clip in there because I wanted – I was hoping that he would endorse – because I think at that time we were on the verge of or just started this whole church planting promoting it and announcing it and so it just kind of an endorsement – he believed in Church planting – planted maybe 25 Churches over the years since the district, but here is the kicked Tim, I have two kids today that are missionaries, one with the free Church in Portugal – a daughter – son-in-law of mine and I’ve a daughter and son-in-law in Slovenia, which is next to Italy and Austria, it’s part of the old Yugoslavia, so they are both involved in missions – the vantage point– the new Church is supporting them and that came from them, I had nothing to do with it but as they set aside 10% for missions they are giving some of that to missionaries and Mark Lee, you can ask him about it, but I said, ‘what gave you that idea?”, “well, they were the only missionaries that I knew”, so I don’t think he did it to make me happy – I don’t think he did it for PR – I think he just said “well, here is a couple of missionaries”, and we had a third missionary in Russia – EV Free missionary, but I just thought I would never have foreseen starting a Church that would ultimately resort – result in a new Church – not just sending money for missions but actually helping support my own kids and we just visited them last month and I said, “so how your support and how are you guys doing?”, they called vantage point – the miracle Church because they didn’t even go out there and solicit ask for help – they just started getting support from them.

JACOBS: That’s just awesome.

HOPPER: There was a story of a man – I’ve shared this in some of this long discussion, his name was David Price –

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JACOBS: Really quick. That story you just shared about your kids – does the congregational know about that?

HOPPER: I think so, I think so. Let me tell you David Price. David Price is an interesting man, turned out I met him on an airplane 10 years ago but he is – he is always asking questions of Southwest Airlines got to know and turns out he owned – he was the president of American Golf, and they either owned or managed 200 golf courses across the country. He was a lawyer by heritage. Anyway, so we are talking about this and at the end of the conversation he gave me a card and said, “here, please have a round of golf”, so we had a great time. But in between that he was telling the story of how he came to faith – he wasn’t a Christian as a young person and some people challenged him to help support a new school over the – on the west side, it’s called something Christian High School, what’s out there, – not West Hills, it’s a big High School- out on the 1-1 going out towards Newberry Park - Thousand Oaks.

JACOBS: Oh yeah, okay.

HOPPER: I can’t think the name but it might be –

JACOBS: Yeah, it’s Christian.

HOPPER: Oaks Christian.

JACOBS: Yeah, it’s the one connected with the, what’s their names –

HOPPER: I don’t know.

JACOBS: Calvary Westlake?

HOPPER: It could be. Anyway, here is just a little story. Some people said, “Hey Dave, you have plenty of money, You’ve been blessed. You need to help some [children] and he said “ why would I want to do that, you know, I don’t have any kids in school anymore” and they said, “you just should do that – this is the right thing to do” and so he did and the same thing about the Diamond Bar or the Vantage Point Church, he said, “you know, I could never have realized or foreseen that one day my grandchildren will go to that school,” isn’t that cool? – So I think – and I shared that story several several times, I wrote him and say can I share your story because again it was that mentality of thinking beyond ourselves, why would we want to invest in a Church out there because someday our kids or grandkids may go there, why would David Price, a wealthy businessman want to help a Christian School, when he doesn’t have any kids at all because unforeseened to him, one day his kids – excuse me, his grandchildren attended that school. So just another one of those stories to help people see the bigger picture.

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JACOBS: Well, and see that is so interesting and that’s what’s been so fun about doing these interviews as you realize you ask a question and then what you really are after kind of comes back later in a round about way and so that’s another one of those ,I don’t know if you want to call it God story per say but it helps form hopefully the ethos that people have because, “Oh yeah, that’s that story about that guy and his grand kids now go to the school who would have thought and now your kids are supported”, you know, I look at my children and I think to myself, you know, I’ve talked about it with my wife and I used to just say, you know, whatever you want to do with your life I don’t want to grow up in to shadow of the pastor and now I mean I am really praying that they go in to ministry and my middle daughter she’s a complete live wire crazy and I’m thinking she will be so awesome on the mission field, you know, and I can just see because it’s already asking questions about Jesus, we had parent-teacher conference and she’s doing really well in Geography and it’s amazing I mean – wow, this is cool, you know, she’s now know different places already. She is already asking about places, you know, where it can be – she wants to travel all the time, so it’ll be interesting, but anyway –

HOPPER: See, I don’t know if this will answer, whatever the question was, but to me it was an another one of those unforeseen benefits of Church planting that we are going to help support more missionaries and who would ever thought my kids would be some of the beneficiaries of this new effort.

JACOBS: Well, you mentioned, you know, basically it goes back to that strawberry patch I think that you mentioned – I mean there is this value that’s, you know, beyond just simply, you know, adding one thing but it continues to grow, do you think a pastor can successfully cast a Church planting vision without communicating a theological rational for Church planting?

HOPPER: No, I mean, you know, we are – I am a Dallas guy and I mean you can’t have a biblical basis for what you wanting to do whether it’s evangelism or Church planting which is I think it affected me to the evangelism certainly you want to, you know, we teach the Bible, we are moving through books and the Bible and, you know, I think you want to have a biblical basis, it’s not just an idea.

JACOBS: Okay. Good. So this now we are in a third part and some of this you already gone over, do you – this is on dealing with a senior pastors of Church planting Churches letting the congregation know as part of casting vision and are they willing to sacrifice resources, so my first question is do you believe it’s important for the Church to know that the pastor is willing to let resources go in order to plant a new Church, is that something that the Church needs to see when you are casting a vision?

HOPPER: I think so, I mean because there is going to be a sacrifice, there is going to be investment and in our situation by giving away two of our, you know, real sharp staff guys I – they have asked me not to say two of our best because they are all best.

JACOBS: Right.

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HOPPER: But that was a big investment – a big risk or sacrifice, maybe it’s a better word and, so I think for people to see that we were willing to do that underscores that this is a value and a priority.

JACOBS: Do you think that, so you do think that when you – when those guys got up there and you said hey, they are going to leaving us, did that contribute to the Church kind of owning the vision at that point?

HOPPER: I think so, and especially because they were our own guys but I told you earlier that I had interview guys at Talbot through, you know, a network and posting things, you know, searching, I think if we have had an unknown guy, hey, we found the street guy at Talbot and he’s going to go out and be our Church planner I don’t know that there would have been a strong ownership whereas everybody loves Mark and Tom – I mean we all do and their wives, you know, Andrea and Tracy and so I think that the fact that they were our own people from our own Church certainly strengthened the support for what we did.

JACOBS: Do you think a pastor can successfully cast the Church planting vision if he’s not willing to release finances people or both?

HOPPER: I think that will be hard, you know, I think it will be hard to be successful at doing that, you know, you have to be willing to let go.

JACOBS: What percentage of thevChurch budget do you think an aggressive Church planting Church should allocate to Church planting ministry, basically if a church is going to be serious about Church planting – I mean and you mentioned something about this before but what you think that you should allocate to a Church planting ministry?

HOPPER: I don’t know. We didn’t really budgeted so much – we saved for it. Remember I told you at the end of each calendar year we start with this new budget and for a number of years we would be 10, 20, 30,000 in the black and so we used half of that to pay down mortgage and then we set some of the rest of the remaining amount for Church planting, so we didn’t really put it in our budget as much as we did more allocating surplus money but purposely allocated it into an account, so we didn’t just fritter it away. So I don’t know what the percent would be but it probably could be the cost of at least one staff member, you know, I mean if you were to - some Churches I guess have guys coming in regularly and then work for 2 to 3 years and then launch out for start a Church. So it’s certainly an investment.

JACOBS: Yeah. And I am curious as to then, you know, you mentioned a little while ago about your desire to see more Churches get planted out of the Diamond Bar Church here, how do you see that reflecting in your budget this year as your looking forward?

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HOPPER: I would say it’s not in our budget yet and part of that’s because we are still recovering I think from the – I use the expression sending out I didn’t feel like we lost people but we have an incursion to go we kind of took the wind out of of our sails, so we don’t have a line item right now for Church planting but I think we will – I think eventually we will begin to set aside funds again create a Church planting special account and, you know, as we were in the dreaming and that whole process I don’t know how your Church is but typically a lot of Churches at the end of the year you get some unexpected gifts or additional gifts – somebody sold some stocks or had a good year in their business and sometimes people would designate I want, you know, I want 2000 to go to the good samaritan fund where we helped people in need but I want, you know, some to go to missions, I want some to go to Church planting, so sometimes people even would designate gifts, so we didn’t budget it so much as we collected, you know, set aside and we may even approach it again that way just having finished this third 3 year campaign, I mean in effect we did invest, you know, half a million – JACOBS: Well, and in fact you did, that’s a very good point and it’s not, you know, I am not trying to limit to the, you know, you are right because as the question really is, you know, intentional budgeted within the confines of a normal Church budget but you’ve done some things outside the budget certainly relative to, you know, I mean for any Church to come up with over a half a million dollars to give – just give away to a Church as already planted is pretty remarkable. Have you –

HOPPER: It’s crazy – maybe it’s crazy.

JACOBS: Well, that’s good – I think what it’s going to take, otherwise we are in a serious trouble. Have you challenged people from your congregation to join the Churches you have been involved in planting, so in other words, you know, think about your answers but, you know, when you are – you have Mark up there and the other guys, you know, did you say hey, I mean did you challenge the ones that we are here to be a part of that?

HOPPER: Sure. I mean I think we definitely said it, you know, this is something that’s on your heart we want to encourage it and talk with Tom, talk with Mark see if you want be a part of that team, so they did get a number of good people to respond and –

JACOBS: And do you think that contributed to the people in embracing the vision as a whole?

HOPPER: I think so – I think so. It can because the people that would now became a part of that were certainly part of the fabric of our Church but anything it leave some holes, you know, leadership gaps of good people that were heading up different ministries that but yeah, I –

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JACOBS: Yeah. And then this is kind of redundant but the last question really is just have you – when you – we already talked about this already but you challenge people from your congregation to contribute to the Churches you have been involved in planting and obviously the answer is yes, because you’ve done all this stuff, would you say that that challenge of asking people to give to the Church has contributed to the people embracing the vision as well?

HOPPER: Yes, yeah.

JACOBS: Okay. Yeah, we talked – I mean you’ve given me so much really good data here – Gosh you were saying something a second ago and I didn’t want to cut you off and I had this I should have remembered it, but I really appreciate this, this is a much – this is a very I think realistic picture of what happens and also just your experience, you know, the whole idea behind this is, you know, we have a lot to talk out there about church planting, there is a lot of talk and I’ve done lot of talking about it I planted a Church but I’ve taken over this Church here and you know, that we have great elders and similar I think a lot of ways to you, I mean the elders have to get excited about it that kind of thing and yet, you know, there are so many guys that are talking about it at the existing Church level and we are really, you know, the purpose of this project is okay, who – given the fact that the senior pastor is hopefully is going to be the one who is going to primarily steer the Church anyway, so then what are they doing – what are they saying – how are they – what examples are they setting so that we can really say to another senior pastor – okay, look if you really want to get serious about planting Churches this is what guys who have done it out of their Church – this is how they get the people excited – this is what they’re willing to do, this is how their whole, you know, this is how the vision gets cast forward. It’s kind of really the whole purpose behind the study. So –

HOPPER: No, I think – I agree with that premise and I can say a couple of things one that the senior pastor is got to be endorsing that – they got to, you know, go for that and you have to kind of keep talking about a lot over and over in different settings and, you know, so that people are hearing it – leaders are hearing it– elder meeting, budgeting, we got a surplus what we are going to do with this money. But I think there is also, you know, that you have to warn pastors that there is a – I don’t say a dark side but there is a challenging part of losing good families and taking the wind out of your own momentum – the comparisons why are thy doing do so well and we are not, I think those things, you know, are unforseen you don’t expect to see that and, so, you know, but the bottom-line is it’s the right thing to do I think I mean I just feel like every Church oh, and I was again to say that the basic premise of Churches is ought to start more Churches. It’s good that the denominations are doing it but really bottom-line, it makes the most sense that Churches that starting Churches. I don’t know a lot about a Emmanuel faith down in Escondido], you know, those guys –

JACOBS: I have heard of them.

HOPPER: Yeah. But I think they have started a number of Churches.

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JACOBS: Okay.

HOPPER: You know in their larger San Diego County. Who was another one well, you probably talk with Tom Garashay here I mean some like they started 2 or 3 and the model seemed to change, you know, from just releasing a guy and he’s going to go out and do this thing or group of families, so there is different ways to go at this but I think bottom-line it seems like Churches are the best ones to help start new Churches. I don’t know what the ideas distance is, 20 miles seems like a long way but we’ve got some families so they are kind of half way between and I think if you have gone that way because they are more, you know, rock and roll than we are. One other thing, has nothing to do with church planting but just another philosophy, Tim, that I think it’s true maybe you can do your next like you know wondering more thesis– is that a Church tends to reflect its pastor and especially it’s not age about pastor and what’s happening here at Diamond Bar is that we got a lot of people like my wife and I who are empty nesters and that’s not good in the long run but what’s also happening in this community is the school enrollment] is declining.

JACOBS: Interesting.

HOPPER: The demographics are shifting and it happens I think in every community.

JACOBS: Absolutely. HOPPER: Over time, when my family moved to Scottsdale in the late 50’s or early 60’s there were only 2 schools – 2 elementary, maybe 3 and one high school. But by the time I finished high school they had like 20 elementary schools and 4 or 5 high schools. Scottsdale just exploded but then now they’ve retracted at least in some because the downtown school closed and demolished, so these demographic shifts come and go.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

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APPENDIX D

INTERVIEW WITH MARK LEE LEE: This almost has been kind of seen toted as, you know the destination and now what do we do.

JACOBS: Yeah, Yeah. You’re here. Well, I have thought about that too, I think its, you know, I haven’t built any buildings, you know where I’ve been the guy in charge while it is being built and I’m not sure, I mean I know it would be an awesome thing but yeah, what you do, you get in and it’s like, “alright”.

JACOBS: Okay. So really what because of this project is so, you know they make you narrow, you know keep the focus so narrow, so it is not, so I had to just keep, I would submit stuff and they’d say, “no, its gotta be even narrower than that, so really what I am focusing on is , this is my line of thinking is, as we look at churches I think churches are planted when they’re planted from other churches, you know I believe that.

LEE: Yeah.

JACOBS: I think, you know my thesis sort of speak or hypothesis, is that the Senior Pastor’s leadership is critical for that.

LEE: Yeah.

JACOBS: And so I’m trying to just look at how is the senior pastor takes a Church that has never planted a church before and cast a vision for them to be a church planting church.

LEE: Yeah.

JACOBS: And so, I’m looking at actual Pastors that have done that and asking questions then what I’m doing also for the purposes of a whole research thing is to add interviews of somebody else on the staff who was with him at a time, in your case it’s perfect because you were heavily involved with the whole thing.

LEE: How did you even hear about Mark and me?

JACOBS: Dave Page yeah and so I called him up one day and said “ hey who do you know that might fit this, and he suggested you guys.

LEE: Okay.

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JACOBS: It’s a really good, it’s actually perfect kind of parallel to stuff that, our church would be different than Mark’s probably be more similar to, in terms of style, in terms of what you guys are doing, in terms of the church not ever planting before being in a building, it’s like alright, we need to do this. Okay, so I’m just going to ask you questions about Mark and so you can just, so basically its in three different sections and I will ask questions so. Do you think its critical for the Senior Pastor of a Church planting church to be the primary driver behind the effort?

LEE: Yeah, I actually think the Senior Pastor needs to be the primary driver behind anything that the church really wants to do, initiative wise. I think, leadership always needs to come from the top, whenever you have like a grassroots thing. You know, I think you can only go so far unless the leadership of the Church is on board and so, I think that’s absolutely pivotal and in this case, I don’t know if you are going there but in this case, Mark definitely was the primary force behind everything. Nobody even really cared.

JACOBS: Nobody, what do you mean nobody cared?

LEE: Nobody cared, nobody wanted to, I mean nobody that wasn’t even on the radar map, you know, I think everybody’s natural inclination is always to think about your own domain and so everybody just thought, hey we got a great little Church going on here lets just keep expanding on our own, lets keep growing our own Church and everything will be great and nobody even this, I don’t think, this was even on the radar map for the Church people or the Staff people or with the elders or anybody.

JACOBS: So, from what you’ve observed about Mark how was your Senior Pastor, I say your Senior Pastor when you worked with him, how was his own walk with God, how has his own walk with God formed his Church Planting convictions?

LEE: How has his own walk with God formed his Church Planting convictions, you mean like his philosophy or how a Church should be planted or what a church plant should be like?

Jacobs: Yeah. What things did you see, did he show about his life that God in terms of God interacting with him teaching in his own journey or whatever else that you think may be brought this idea on and was it something that was born

Lee: Yeah. I mean that is a good question, I think from Mark is the ultimate shepherd, I think that’s kind of lost art in this day and age Mark, just absolutely genuinely cares about people as people and not as numbers, or statistics or anything and this whole thing was forged out of the fact that a group of people from his Church, were now starting to move to this brand new area and so in essence, he was losing a certain group of people, and so he didn’t like that, he wanted to be able to…, he just saw that people were moving out to this new area and he saw this need for a brand new Church to almost a kind of, the distance became too great for these people to come back to his Church and so he still wanted to almost kind of be their shepherd in a way. So, if you thought about it this way

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he almost still wanted to shepherd them by having an under shepherd almost. And so that’s really kind of part of I think what catalyzed this idea of the whole Church Plant, that he was losing people that he really loved and so he wanted to find a way to continue to shepherd them.

JACOBS: Were there any, what you might call God’s stories or symbolic things, that occurred at the Church in Diamond Bar, that strength that became kind of stories that strengthened the conviction that you know, this is something that God is in what we do.

LEE: I think one of the stories is just Mark himself, Mark is in the vision that really took hold of Mark, because Mark is not a natural visioner, nor is he a natural very aggressive lets take the whole word by storm kind of guy. And yet, He had this vision that was in that realm, and the weird thing about Mark was that I mean he never let go of this, he started maybe talking this up years before I had even gotten there, I think I started on Staff at Diamond Bar may be around 2003, I think he started talking about this even before that, just kind of sharing with the church hey some day I would love to the plant a Church, now I would never do that, I would never just kind of casually throw ideas out until we ready to pull the trigger on something. He would just kind of tell everybody hey, yeah that this is what I would love to do some day and I think a lot of Pastors can have dreams, a lot of Pastors can have fancies, but I think the thing that differentiated just this passing fancy from an actual vision is the fact that, this vision just never let Mark go and so, Mark kept talking about it and through the years everybody kept thinking okay, well yeah you’ve been at this Church twenty years so, you know you can pretty much do whatever you want old man, as long as it doesn’t affect us. He had developed so much stocks, so much relation or so much leaderships stock in that Church, that the Church was okay with him just kind of doing whatever he wanted as again as long as it didn’t affect them.

JACOBS: That’s interesting, because you know like we are going to this conference, you are going to this Sticky Teams conference?

LEE: Yeah, Yeah.

JACOBS: Okay. So Osborne talks in his book about the difference between permission and buy in, so like you know, you have….

LEE: There was no buy in in the beginning.

JACOBS: Okay.

LEE: Yeah.

JACOBS: Interesting, you say in the beginning?

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LEE: Yeah, well may be I should just go ahead and tell this part of this story that yeah, in the beginning people gave Mark permission. The people were not excited about it, everyone was just lukewarm about the whole idea, it was like okay again go ahead and do this as long as it doesn’t affect us. Mark starts interviewing other Church planters and again people from outside of the Church so it doesn’t affect the Church. Well, it came a point, I was Mark’s young adult Pastor, me and his worship leader had started talking hey, would not it be great you know, may be we punch each other in the arm hey wouldn’t it be great to do Ministry together someday Mark is a great guy, his primary gift probably isn’t speaking, isn’t teaching and I had a worship leader that wasn’t very good, and so we always looked across the aisle at each other and thought man what I wouldn’t give to the ministry without that and so we, Tom and I approached Mark and said hey, Mark we absolutely love it here we are not coming to you because we are disgruntled in anyway. We know that you are interviewing Church Planters right now and so we want to throw our names into the hat if you want to consider us that’s great, if you don’t think we are the one’s then will stay here for the rest of our lives because we love you. But we think, may be God is calling us in this direction but we want to here God’s voice through your confirmation too. As so Mark said, Okay lets do it. Now Mark didn’t, I don’t think Mark wanted it necessarily or realized necessarily what would end up, I don’t think anybody realize what would end up happening from that point on, but Mark is close to retirement and so people saw me and Tom as being the future of that Church.

JACOBS: Okay.

LEE: And so all of a sudden, people couldn’t sit in the fence anymore with the announcement that Tom and I were going to be planting the Church. People were either very supportive or they became very unsupportive at that point. But you were either going to go one direction or the other because the people who were supportive just thought, wow this is just the opportunity of the lifetime and we get to plant this Church we got a couple of good guys going this direction we are putting money this way so of course we would want that money to be a good investment. The other people on the other side thought that you are pawning off the future of this Church.

JACOBS: Interesting.

LEE: What are you doing here?

JACOBS: So Mark had a really kind of steer that the right way, I mean did he try to get those people on board necessarily or he just kind of keep?

LEE: I’m sure he did. Nothing readily apparent, comes to mind he didn’t necessarily have a meeting where he try to bring all the disinterest together anything like that.

JACOBS: Yeah, that’s good, your perspectives good on the issue of not having buy in in the beginning. Would you say that, once the Church once it was clear you guys would go and see things happen would you say there was buy in?

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LEE: I think the people who were supportive became more supportive and the people who are unsupportive become more unsupportive.

JACOBS: Oh, really. LEE: Yeah.

JACOBS: Did they end up leaving or they stick around?

LEE: Some people ended up leaving or even the success of Vantage Point. “ Success of Vantage Point” was good and was not good it became it was viewed good in the eyes of the people who are supportive and I think even some of the people who are unsupportive, I don’t know if jealous is the right word or what but we quickly almost out grew the Mother Church which we didn’t even anticipate, and so I think people who were negative almost try and find the glass is half empty with everything and so it is like, well of course we aren’t growing as quickly as Vantage Point because you know, we let go of these guys and we could do this and we can do that and so I think and it is hard for me to even say because once I cut ties with Mother Church I cut ties with Mother Church I mean even though, we were tied to the board, we didn’t really understand the heartbeat of the people any more.

JACOBS: yeah.

LEE: Because, we weren’t really connected relationally but that was the sense that we had gotten that there were like people kept even leveling accusations against the Daughter Church, u,s saying Oh, well of course they are doing good, we have paid for everything, when they didn’t pay for a red cent, that we purposely as a Daughter Church said, “we don’t want any of your money, do not please allow us to step out and pay do not keep us as children for ever, don’t give us a red cent from Day 1, they said, “ You don’t want a red cent okay gone a red cent” but then we said, “ Okay, okay”. Now you not giving us a red cent also means the you have very little say.

JACOBS: Oh, sure, sure it’s like you know the guy ho 25, he is still with his Mom, you know…

LEE: That, the weird thing, an I’m usually a person who likes to stick the questions and stuff like that, but the weird thing is that like ….

JACOBS: Oh, this is good.

LEE: Tom and me the greatest fear that we had is that we thought, because Mark can be a little micromanaging at times, and I love the guy, but our greatest fear was that the Mother Church would always impose its values upon us and that’s why we said, “ hey, when we are raising start up money we don’t want a red cent because we knew they would nickel and dime us on everything.

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LEE: Do you really need a projector that is that expensive? Because, even if you go to Diamond Bar, Diamond Bar everything about it is just kind of ho hum, and so we just thought okay. We understood that our community, the people are moving out to these 4000 sq. feet houses in these wide streets and these immaculate neighborhoods and park, because they are looking for something a bunch of churches. This area had been a graveyard for Churches and we had thought that may be that might be the case, because the Church plants that started up just didn’t have very much to offer, so it was one guy, well meaning guy with a guitar and two crappy speakers up there and stuff like that, and that’s fine but that just wasn’t necessarily reflection of the community. So we wanted to say okay we will let’s try and have the Church be a reflection of the community which means we need stuff, which means that we can’t have a Mother Church nickeling and diming us on everything that we want to buy. So we are not going to ask for stuff.

JACOBS: No, that’s good.

LEE: We’re just not going to ask for money.

JACOBS: This is good background and this is just so interesting, I mean the focus of the project is so narrow but there is so much of this that is interesting to me and any way, so these questions are really, like as he said, you are the sixth person I have, well not the sixth your are the third person because I got one senior pastor and one staff this is the sixth interview I have done. LEE: And can I even answer one more God story.

JACOBS: yeah, please.

LEE: Okay, another God story is that they didn’t raise support money for us in terms of our start up cause, they raised, they did a capital campaign for us on what would be a down payment on a piece of property that we would buy at some point, that hasn’t come to fruition just yet. But I think, one of the God stories that really, really just kind of the two God stories that really started to get people on board was number 1. When we did the capital campaign, they raised more money and pledges then they had for any of their building campaigns for that one campus, so all of a sudden, this was the most successful capital campaign and it was for something that the church that would never even directly affect the church. So, all of a sudden everybody started to get a little bit more on board saying, okay may be God is in this. We took a team of only may be about 20 people or so from Diamond Bar 20, it may have started out as 30 but it went to down to 20 by the time everything started, and when we first started the Church, you know we saw, we put up some big numbers in the beginning. So, our first service I think was like 220 we went down to 180, you know in our preview phase, we had a grand opening of 353 and so again some of those numbers even helped, helped people think, Yeah man like this isn’t an everyday happening. Yeah God is really in this thing, so I think those couple of things really helped people to start to kind of get on board.

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JACOBS: Right, good. Do you think thE communication of the Senior Pastors strong personal conviction, let me tell you what I mean by “strong personal conviction” you know in other words, was it evident to the people that Mark really believed that the Church needed to be planted?

LEE: Oh, yeah. I mean. JACOBS: He was a key factor in him casting the vision… was the fact they know he believed in it?

LEE: Well, wait, say it again?

JACOBS: Do you think he was a key factor in the casting of the vision for the Church to know that Mark really believed that this should be done?

LEE: I think so, because again Mark had been at that Church for so long and he had so much stock in that Church, he had built so much stock in that Church, he wasn’t the founding Pastor but, he was pretty much the Pastor of Diamond bar. I mean, there may have been one or one Pastor within a small interim stint, but he is pretty much the pastor that took it from almost nothing to something and it got it through it’s building programs and everything. He was pretty much the Pastor. So, Mark was well-liked, Mark was well-respected and if it weren’t for Mark standing up and pretty much saying, Mark’s boldness wasn’t just in terms of, hey that we’re going to plant this Church, Mark’s boldness came in terms of, and it almost happened and were still working towards this direction. Mark’s boldness really came in saying, ‘’that not only are we going to plant this Church, we are going to buy a piece of property for Church that doesn’t even exist yet, and so just that kind of just strength and conviction and so it was almost no brainer, that we were going to plant a Church because the Church was going to do even more so than that. The idea of planting the Church was a no brainer because, I mean we are going to help to build the building for it, we are going to help buy property for it.

JACOBS: Yeah, and it’s interesting how you said earlier , you know you said Mark is not a visionary, and I know exactly what you mean by that.

LEE: Mark’s a soft-spoken, real gentle shepherd kind of guy. He doesn’t even look at numbers.

JACOBS: But yet the stuff, yeah because I asked him the same question about what their numbers will be….

LEE: We have about so many families, right.

JACOBS: Families, right, yeah, that’s right.

LEE: Where as I can tell you last quarters of Sunday attendance.

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JACOBS: Whether they are bad for us, I know they’re bad that better look at a man, its anyway, but yeah I hear that. So they how important was is that the congregation understood Mark’s passion for Church planting as the Church prepared to plant, I mean how important do you think was they understood his passion for it?

LEE: I mean I think it was pivotal I mean I think without that passion, Mark stood up and Mark led with his words, Mark led, he is not an emotional guy but he had, he showed a little bit of passion to him, he used even words and word pictures like, I can’t wait for the day where we plant a flag on that you know, on that property and stuff like that.

JACOBS: Interesting, even that’s like imagery that so may be …imagery he never used before?

LEE: Imagery that’s so not Mark, and Mark is very much showed even a consensus builder. Hey, what do you guys kind of think, but there was no. He did not ask for very many opinions.

JACOBS: Yeah.

LEE: He just said, hey guys this is what I want to do, and this is where we are going, and the consensus and the input came with , how do you think we can get that, there was really no questions in terms of like, do you think we should move this direction?

JACOBS: Well, you know and that’s great, and in this whole purpose of this project I guess the thinking, of value that this hopefully will have is, Look, I believe that what you’re doing is the best work that can be done and I’m not saying that, it could be you plant new Church that is the only way change America is we got to Church America. And I think the best way for that to happen is through good leadership and I think it’s the only way it going to happen.

LEE: I think the best way for anything to happen is got to happen through leadership.

JACOBS: And so its through this and so, you know the whole thought behind this is there is lot to talk about Church Planting, everyone want to talk about it, and I want to kind of say look, there is enough senior Pastor in existing Churches sitting on resources yes, sounds good, its like, Here are the guysthat are actually doing it, here’s what they are saying and here’s what they are doing and that’s why this whole project will hopefully be a line in the sand for people because it a line in the sand for me. I’m sitting on the point where I would love to go plant again some day, I kind of have this whole vision but right now, it’s like we just to had a guy come out from the Mid West last week, awesome guy, to plant a couple of Churches. Drove them all around and said look man, take whoever you want we will do everything we can, as like that role was pretty exciting to think about being, anyway

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LEE: Think a lot of people get intimidated by Church planting because they about the amount of resources that are needed. Because, If want to plant a Church well, well I mean a lot of big churches that are planting satellite campuses and stuff like that. You know, they’re pouring about 100 to 250,000 dollars to a new campus, in order to help resource that thing and….

JACOBS: Easily, if not way more…

LEE: And Diamond Bar if you think about it without the capital campaign lets put the capital campaign aside, because we haven’t even really seen any of that money, where none other money has been spent so far. So, aside from that they spend you know may be a couple tens of thousands of dollars you know, kind of supporting our salaries through the end of the years so I ended in Easter, Tom ended in June, they supported our salary to the end of the year, that’s really all they did and then it took the two of us guys saying, okay well, we are going having a pretty much support raise everything we get, and so we were now we raised a 130,000 dollars and I mean its possible I think what is more important is the guys who you get to do it, then hey we need to help all of these resources we need to have multiple campaigns, we need to do this or we need to do that.

JACOBS: Well, yeah, exactly. Right, clearly, I mean even for the success of what you’re doing, it’s not going to inflate your head, you had obviously if you want to leader you were I mean it’s so funny, so much push back so easily, especially on stuff like this because I’m trying to show importance of a strong leadership role and you yet everyone want to come and go, “yeah, but you got to make room for God”.

JACOBS: I’m going, “ I know there’s God, he’s there, he’s the holy spirit and he animates us and gives us breath”, it’s just hard because I know, I get that but so many people want to check you, “well, you know it’s really not about…” any way, second section actually is a little bit on a…

LEE: It is almost kind of like some people say

LEE: I have heard about missionaries tell normal people, that you don’t have to pray about being a missionary, God wants you to do be a missionary. And so, I think even the same principle almost applies that I don’t think is if God wants us to multiply I think healthy entities multiply.

JACOBS: Absolutely I agree. The second section is really about, again, part of building a vision around Church Planting part of changing peoples minds inspiring people to do this, is the theological aspect and when I say, theology I’m not talking high minded sophisticated. I’m basically talking you almost substitute the word biblical for it , so if I use the word theological it’s just in terms of these questions and getting them approved and getting them written in the right way.

LEE: You had to get them approved?

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JACOBS: I had to get them, all my readers, you know what I mean.

LEE: I got it.

JACOBS: But, its good, I had to think through these questions and try to get them. The whole second part of this is that senior Pastors and Church planting Churches will identify the communication of theological rationales’ as a key factor in casting vision for any Church plant, In other words, it’s not just a good idea, but you know there is a reason that beyond this methodology. So the question is and this is just all how you see it. Do you think your Senior Pastor thinks either methodologically or theologically about Church planting or both, how do you see that?

JACOBS: Was it something that was a method of growth, or was there a theological conviction behind it?

LEE: You know, Mark’s not a big strategy guy.

JACOBS: Okay.

LEE: And he is not a big researcher. You know that’s me and Tom. We are the methodological guys, we are ones who research, who’s doing what, what kind of methods are working and God is using in this day and age, I mean God, Mark’s real motivation for planting was just a I think a theological one a biblical one that you know, according to statistics you know sometimes the older a Church gets the more in grown it gets and I think he’d seen that in his own Church. You know, every Church Planting book out there tells you that a new Church is more likely and more effective to reach new believers for Christ then an older, established Church and so I think there was to a certain extent this, this kind of this fire from Mark to continue to reach a new generation of people which is fantastic. Mark even did his Masters thesis, I think on Church Planting, way back when and he never seen the planting of a Church in his ministry in his life time and so some people even kind of speculated hey, that he is close to retirement before he goes out, he wants to see something that he has always been kind of dreaming up. And this is something that I think God had planted in his heart, ever since he was may be in his late 20s or early 30s. And something that he just kind of sat on for a long time and just decided, hey, when I go out I want to go out with a bang.

JACOBS: Yeah, you know what’s cool about that is he, you know like spending a little time with him. He might not get assessed as a Church Planter. But look what he had a chance to do.

LEE: Right.

JACOBS: You know, and so what role has presenting a theological rationale for church planting had in casting the Church planting that is another words, when he is casting the vision, what role did the theological basis for Church Planting played?

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LEE: I think that played a huge part in things, because people don’t really get inspired by methodology as much as people get inspired by about biblical-theology. And people not only get inspired by you know, really following what the Bible has to say about reaching, who doesn’t get inspired about the new people being reached for Christ, The new stories being formed. Mark would even really use this as a vision casting tool, he would say things like you know what, what you don’t know is that some day your children and your grandchildren will move out to this brand new area, because they can afford a house here and then they will be looking for a good church and they might have the opportunity to go to a church that you and I helped start and little did he know, that nobody may be very few people believed him at that time. But, we’ve already seen that happened, tons of peoples kids and grandkids moving out to this area and even becoming, and already having become staff people at our Church. Because, they were looking for a good Church and they you know, moved up the ranks and so I think Mark not only used this idea, Hey, We have the opportunity to reach people for Christ, there are no good Churches in the area which they weren’t. No good Churches like I said it was a graveyard for new Churches. No Church had done well. So, even for us to go in there we thought, either we are crazy or God is really preparing to do something and so he used the motivation, we have the opportunity to set up a permanent presence in an area that does not have Churches and we could see hundreds, we could see thousands of people come to Christ because of this. And he also used the your old and so this may not necessarily affect you but it will affect you, your lineage.

JACOBS: What aspects did the senior pastor appear to see as vital for the church to understand? You mentioned a few things but what other kind of biblical principles or theological issues do you think it was important for Mark to communicate to the congregation to prepare the planting?

LEE: Well not only the great commission which is pretty much what we’ve been talking about that we need to reach new people for Christ.

JACOBS: And did he mention the great commission?

LEE: Oh yeah absolutely. The great commission was pivotal in terms of, hey we need to go, that we need to be sending people, that we need to be not waiting for people to come to us but we need to go and we need to see more people come to Christ. We need to see more people come to Christ around the world. We need to see more people come to Christ around our nation.

I’ve already kind of addressed that part a little bit but kind of a cool thing that Mark talked about biblically was just even in need to do like, I don’t know even necessarily how to express this from a biblical standpoint, to continue to show love and to be generous, to be selfless. And the whole idea of selflessness was shown in, hey we’re not getting somebody from the outside, we’re giving up our own staff people by doing this. We’re gonna show selflessness in the way that we raised money for something that we will never ever directly be benefited by.

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Because the way that Diamond Bar had started, Mark probably told you this, but Diamond Bar was started because a piece of property was given to them. And so Mark kind of called upon the roots of how Diamond Bar started saying that hey, that if this is how we started, that if we started with a blessing then we have the responsibility to almost pay that forward.

JACOBS: Good and then how was all that communicated? How did you see him communicate that? LEE: Just primarily through the pulpit. Is that what you mean? Yeah primarily through the pulpit.

JACOBS: It seems like an obvious question but I want to hear you answer it. LEE: Mark and I, this whole thing started because the church was celebrating its 39th birthday and the reason why it was celebrating its 39th anniversary is because who wants to turn 40?

JACOBS: That’s funny.

LEE: So they were celebrating their 39th anniversary as a church and then Mark got up and really started talking very seriously about where the church, the direction that the church is going to be going for the next 39 years. And the church hadn’t even identified me as a church planter. I hadn’t even identified me as the church planter yet. But Mark was sharing with me some ideas on how to preach this and he wanted to talk about things that I thought were, I wanted him to go a different way with his sermon because I thought it was going to be kind of boring. I thought it was gonna be a little lackluster. I knew he needed to move forward and kind of what we’re talking about with passion and with visions, stand up there and say, I have a dream this afternoon. And so I helped him sculpt the message a little bit but then he said, hey Mark, who don’t you help teach with me on that day? So my role was to get up and to talk about the need for new churches and I don’t know it that was a part of Mark’s master plan even or something like that but Mark and I team taught on that day about how we wanted to plant a new church and how there was a need for new churches and that’s when God started working in my heart then a little bit later on that’s when I approached Mark.

JACOBS: That’s cool. Would you say the average person at Diamond Bar, if you were to pull them aside in the same morning, if they could articulate basic theological rational for why churches should be planted. Did they go along with it, cause they were like, yeah it’s a great idea for Mark or did they, if you pulled one of them aside suddenly and say, why should people plant churches? Do you think they could articulate why?

LEE: I don’t know if they could articulate why churches should plant churches or why we should have theology of multiplication but I think they knew why we were planting this church. And the reason why we were planting this church is because we were going to a brand new area and because we wanted to see tons of people reached for Christ in an area that didn’t even have very many churches. And I think people can even realize that

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there was revival in all sorts of parts of the world except for the United States. When other countries are thinking about sending missionaries, they think about sending missionaries to the United States.

JACOBS: So there was some awareness of that.

LEE: Yeah.

JACOBS: Okay, that’s cool actually, I’m glad you said that.

LEE: Because that was what we beat into the crowd and because we knew that in order to get people to see the need for new churches, that people had to almost see the work of God everywhere else in the world except for, people had to see, you know the apologetics of any church plant is that churches are dying in the United States and that we have a need for a ton more churches. So we had to just absolutely beat that and beat it and beat it and beat it and beat it and we did.

JACOBS: Yeah. No that’s good and it’s also the reason why this issue came up to is because when you talked about the apologetics for it but there is also the resistance points that people have to about, there’s already enough churches or this kind of things, so how does that?

LEE: We begin to address some of those things.

JACOBS: And you did address them?

LEE: Yeah we did address those things that typically the older the church gets; it gets less effective in reaching people for Christ. The younger a church is, see Peter Wagner, that church planting is the most effective methodology blah blah blah. So we hit that about as hard as we could because we knew that there was resistance. So we knew that we had to do everything that we could to try and at least in our only human power to turn the tide against every complaint or every criticism that somebody might have. And what’s even kind of, here’s a God story too is that, the accountant at Diamond Bar was one of the ones who was very vocally and very strongly against the idea of this whole church plant. Well, accountants usually are. They’re kinda negative. They think they have more power than they really do.

JACOBS: Right, I’m with you man.

LEE: And so after Mark and I had gotten up to speak about the apologetics of church planting and why we were planting this church or what this church was gonna be and how our church was gonna be different even because we’ve really also toted the whole idea of the random acts of kindness. We’re gonna go out and we’re gonna show God’s love in tangible ways. Even the accountant not only became supportive of the brand new church but even was on the team, the capital campaign team that would help raise money

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for the brand new church and now he even works as our accountant and not Diamond Bar’s accountant.

JACOBS: That’s awesome.

LEE: Yeah and so we tried everything that we could to communicate the message that this is something that had to get done.

JACOBS: Good. Do you think your senior pastor could have successfully cast the church planting vision without communicating a theological rational?

LEE: No.

JACOBS: Okay, that’s just to ask in the negative. LEE: No.

JACOBS: Cool, alright that’s the second part. And now the third part and we’ve gone over this a little bit just in natural conversations come up that senior pastors will identify the communication of willingness to sacrifice for resources as a key factor in casting vision so you know, I really believe in it, the bible says to do it and we’re willing to, so that’s kind of the idea.

LEE: Yeah.

JACOBS: How important is it for the church to know that Mark was willing to let resources go in order to plant a new church?

LEE: How important was it for the church to know that Mark was willing to put resources behind it? I guess the flipside of that question would be, what would it have been like if Mark stood up there and said we have got to plant a church and that’s it.

JACOBS: That was the second question. Do you think he could have done it if he was not willing to release resources?

LEE: Well I think with the resource part of things due is I think it showed the extent of Mark’s passion. It showed the extent of his commitment. And for our church in particular, what it did was, when you talk about the churches resources you’re really talking about the people’s resources.

JACOBS: Right, when I say resources I mean money that people and whatever the people can give and that kind of thing, the resource that could have gotten that way going your way.

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LEE: And so again, I think for our church people were on the fence. So people could care less about this thing. And so I think the brilliance of Mark being willing to commit manpower and money towards this thing is that it forced people to either get on board or to get off. And so what was nice is that if Mark hadn’t committed any resources towards it, nobody would have gone, I don’t think. People would have just said, okay, great, keep us updated, let us know how it goes. But in Mark putting resources towards it, he may have had also the 20, 30 people that came with us and picked up the banner. Sure he had maybe a hundred people who were against it but he also had 20 and 30 people who have helped reached 200 people for Christ over the past couple of years. So I think sure he got some bigger enemies but he got some raving fans along the way too. JACOBS: Good. What resources has the senior pastor been willing to direct from other church needs in order to pursue you church planting?

LEE: Oh man, he was willing to lay it all on the line, almost too much so.

JACOBS: Really?

LEE: I mean he let me and Tom go, which was a big emotional sacrifice for the church. Tom was his worship leader and he’s just an incredibly creative hardworking guy. A lot of people even thought that maybe, I’m the one who started the young adult ministry at Diamond Bar so a lot of people, I think even as a lack of faith or a lack of vision said, oh the young adult ministry’s gonna collapse if the founder isn’t there and so wait, what was the original question?

JACOBS: No, that’s fine. We were talking what resources did the senior pastor’s been willing to direct from other church needs…

LEE: And not only was he willing to, me and Tom, not only did he wanna raise this capital campaign that would pay for church property but they were willing to financially support us with no time line. They wanted to support us as long as we needed support. Tom and I even told them, that’s not a good idea. Deadlines are a good thing. But they we like, no we’re gonna make sure that you guys don’t fail. We’re thinking that we’ll have to support you financially for seven years. I mean they were willing to support not only the capital side of things but they were willing to support even like the budgetary side of things. Again they anticipated for seven years.

Now what’s great is that from launch day we became financially independent. Not only because of the generosity of our people but also because we just pretty much lived off of what we made. We said okay, barring closing our doors, we don’t want your money. And so again that made the independence process go quicker. We knew that if they didn’t have to give us money that they would be able to kind of, not be a stress and whenever there’s more stress, sometimes that reins begin to tighten a little bit more. We wanted it as much as much as possible for the mother church to kind of feel like, yeah this was easy, yeah there’s no reason for us to micro manage these guys, they’re doing great, go ahead and keep doing what you’re doing.

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JACOBS: It’s interesting because talking to him and now talking to you, it’s almost seems like in some ways that this is outside of the scope of the project. But then Mark, he’s doing his thesis on church planting like you said never pulling one off and then his willingness to support and raising, helping you guys with capital stuff or whatever he’s doing, it’s almost like he’s vicariously experiencing it through you.

LEE: Right.

JACOBS: Which is cool, it’s not every pastor is gonna do that certainly.

LEE: Yeah, I mean because I think a lot of church plants get started because it’s the associate’s idea. The associate goes to the senior and says I’m thinking about planting a church. Well the senior knows at that point that even if he’s thought about it to the point where he’s talked to the senior, well it’s a done deal. So the senior thinks, okay how can I make this at least look amicable and look like we’re supporting him when we’re really not all that supportive, where it’s really his idea, not mine? And so let’s go ahead and let’s stand in front of the church, let’s talk about how we came up with this grand vision together and, hey everybody; we’re even willing to give him $2000 to start this venture. Oh look at us, we’re so magnanimous.

But our thing was totally different. This was all Mark’s idea. He took everybody kicking and screaming with him and I didn’t want anything to do with it in the beginning. He approached me when I first came on staff and I said I can’t start a church and a young adult ministry all at the same time. And then three years later, I said okay I’m in this thing. But Mark was all in from the beginning. I think because it was his idea and his dream to begin with, of course it’s easier for him to devote a lot of resources to it because he really does have a bigger mindset than just that one church location.

JACOBS: That’s fantastic, that’s really, really good stuff. So how has Mark influenced the allocation of funds to church planting 6ministry? I mean you kind of said he took everybody with him but what things did you observe that he was a part of making sure that funds and resources came your way?

LEE: Well, funds and resources, like I said, once the church started it never came our way.

JACOBS: Okay, well in the prep time maybe then.

LEE: The prep time, it all revolved around that capital campaign.

JACOBS: Okay, okay.

LEE: Because even the start-up money we pretty much raised ourselves. And so all the money was just pretty much rallied around hey, we’re gonna help these guys find a piece of property because somebody paid for us to have a piece of property. So we’re gonna go ahead and pay that forward. A lot of it revolved around that and then it was just pretty

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much almost like the, what is it, the severance package of hey let’s just support these guys at least until the end of the year. Let’s make sure they’re not down and out and so most of the funds kind of evolved.

JACOBS: So from upfront you did, that’s good, that property, I’ve never heard of that before and that kind of strategy that, cause it really is a long term investment, it’s hard for you to blow that cash and then come back empty handed, you know.

LEE: It is. Because I even knew that that was gonna be dangerous. Because they wanted to buy us seven acres of land and I mean that’s generous, that’s a lot of land. But you never know how much land you’re gonna need until you get started. I mean what if we need 30 acres of land? What if the church tanks and we don’t use any of it? I just thought, oh ya yay, wow, this is like a big step. Now they never ended up signing on the deal not because us getting cold feet but because the seller got cold feet. I just thought oh man, we’re gonna be, if we buy this property, we’re both gonna be attached to the hip for an awfully long time and I don’t think that’s what anybody wants.

JACOBS: Well, that’s exactly, it’s kinda like when your dad buys you a car and you go on, okay, thanks a lot but when can I sell this?

LEE: Or a house?

JACOBS: Or a house, yeah, what happens if I wanna sell this and get rid of this, yeah it makes sense, there’s a lot of that that maybe just parallels there. So how is Mark challenged people from the congregation to join, how did he challenged people to join your church or did he do that?

LEE: You mean to be a part of the original launch team?

JACOBS: Yeah to be a part of the launch team.

LEE: He didn’t really do that part too much.

JACOBS: He didn’t? Okay.

LEE: No, that was more of our responsibility. I mean from upfront he would say, so if any of you guys are interested in being a part of the team, let Mark and Tom know.

JACOBS: But he did say something from upfront?

LEE: He did say something from upfront but he didn’t hit that point hard.

JACOBS: So he wasn’t like you know, we’re starting a church and somebody needs to get up and…

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LEE: No, no, no, he didn’t do anything of that sort. We kinda shouldered, tapped people that we have relationships with and that was about it. He pretty much said, hey if you wanna join these guys, that’ll be great.

JACOBS: Well this is the last question and it really kinda goes back to what you’ve, cause you’ve supplied a lot good content. So basically how did he challenge people from the congregation to contribute to your church? I guess the answer would be mostly the capital campaign.

LEE: Yeah, right, that was all of it.

JACOBS: But here’s a follow up to that. Would you say that that challenge contributed to people embracing the vision?

LEE: Yeah, I think so. Because he knew that everybody, again we’ve talked about this but it forced people to show some form of commitment to this thing. They couldn’t just kind of nod passively at what Mark was saying. They were forced to either in some way cooperate or not cooperate with what Mark was saying. And so that was good for people, it was good for people that Mark really was serious about this thing. That capital campaign was good in getting people on board or off the bus, I think.

JACOBS: That’s good. Well, that’s about it, okay. So you’re a runner?

LEE: I am a runner. Why?

JACOBS: Cool cause I’d rather be running on your car and then Mark mentioned something about you running…

LEE: I just finished my first marathon over the summer.

JACOBS: Good for you.

LEE: Yeah.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

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