Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 11 SEPTEMBER 1906

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

666 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Religious Inst1'uctwn.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

TUESDAY, 11 SEPTEMBER, 1906.

'!'he SPEAKER(Hon. Sir A. S. Cowley, Herbe1·t) took the chair at half- past 3 o'clock.

QUESTIONS. LICENSING AcT AMENDl\IENT.

Mr. PAULL (Charters Tmc£rs) asked the Chief Secretary-

Is it his intention during the IJext session of Parlia~ ment-provided that he is still at the head of the Government-to introduce a Bill to amend the Licen­sing Aet of 1885 ?

[Hon. A. H. Barlow.

The SECRJ<JTARY FOR AGRICULTURE (Hon. D. F. Denham, Oxley), for the Premier (Hon. vV. Kidston, Rockharnpton), replied-

The matter has not yet been considered. I may mention, however. that since the hon. member put this question the Premier has not been in the city.

SELECTORS VISITING QUEENSLAND. Mr. P. J. LEAHY (WM·rego) asked the­

Secretary for Public Lands-1. How many intending selertors visited Queensland

for the twelve months ended 30th Jnne as the direct result of the actions of the r,ands Department P

2. How many of these men selected land, and what areas:

3. 'Vhat number of these men got free pas'le'3, and what would be the ordina1·y cost <·f these pa~ses r

4. Is he ttWHre that a number of peT sons to whom. paf'Ses were issued used them for holitlay purposes?

6. 1Vill he h;sue free passes to Q.uet..nslanders in search of land?

The SECRETARY :B'OR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. J. T. Bell, Dalby) replied--

1 and 2. It is impossible to say. 3. l,lll< railway passe~ were issued to intending

selectors, or a value or £1,9±0 :Js. 5d., the whole o! which sum was chargf'd a~ainst the I.Jands Department.

4. I am aware thJ.lt iu some iw•tanres the generosity of the df'partment has been abused.

5. I have already done so in numerous cases.

~iDVERTIBING BusiNESS oF LANDS DEPART­}!ENT.

:i\Ir. LESIN A ( Clc>·munt) asked the Secretary for Public Lands--

1VJll he kindly table a return showing the r~mount expended in a.dverr,ising the business of the I.~nnds De­pru·tment in the Pre"s outside of Queensland during the past twelve montbs-

(a) With the consent of the Secretary fm· Public Lands, names of papers, and respective amounts;

(b) With tbe consent of the Government Advertis­ing Board, names of papers, and respective amountsr

'J'he SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS replied-

! have no objection as soon as the information has been collected.

CASE OF CONSTABLE BEARY. Mr. REINHOLD (Brisbane South) asked the

Home Secretary-Has he nny ohjcction to lay upon the table of the,

House copies of all papers. correspondence, etc., in con­nection with the dbmis!."al of Constable Beary at Towns­villein December last?

The HOME SECRETARY (Hon. P. Airey, Flinders) replied-

Papers may be seen at the Home Secretary's Office.

RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION IN STATE SCHOOLS REFERENDUM BILL.

LEAVE TO lNTltODcCE.

The HOME SECRETARY (Hon. P. Airey} moved-

That the House will, at its next sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of the VVhole to consi11er of the desir­ablenes~ of introducin_g- a Bill to refer ro the elBt•tors ol Queensland a certain question respecting religiou:o~ in­struction in State schools.

Mr. LESINA (Glerrnont): Mr. Speaker-­The SPEAKER : The motion was called

"Fornta.l., M,Z LESIN A : I called "Not formal." The SPEAKFR: I certainly did not hear any

call of '' Not formal."

Religious Instruction [11 SEPTEMBER.] 1,n State Schools. 667

lVlr. LESINA: I certainly called "Not formal."

The SPEAKER : I shall be oblig-ed if hon. members will speak up so that I can hear them.

lVlr. LESINA: I think on an important matter like this the Home Secretary might have shown the courtesy of giving us some idea of the scope of this propo•ed legislation. \Ye have been frequently brought face to face with a difficulty of this sort in which we have not been able to amend a Bill or enlarge its scope after passing a resolution, and I would like to know what question is to be put to the electors? That information, I think, the House is entitled to. This is introducing one of the most impor. tant departures in connection with our national system of education that has ever emanated from any Government-a departure which ought not to be introduced in this light and airy fashion. I do not think the time is at all ripe for the introduction of a measure of this description. \-Ve have in Queensland one of thA finest systems of State education to be found in any part of the civilised world, and it should be the aim and object of everyone who has been brought up under that system, or whose family have benefited by it, to do all they can to prevent the introduction of denominationalism into our schools. But the Home Secretary introduces this important resolution in a doubtful and timid tone, and expects the House to pass it without getting any further information on the subject. I say it is a most seriuu' departure. I do not think there is a man or woman in Queensland, apart from den' minational preju­dices one way or the other, who will not step into the breach and fight agamst any attack that may be made on PUr educational system. I eee in this an attempt ~o attack that system, which I should have thought the Government would have been the stronge;t supporters of. I hope, if we get no further information at this stage, the hands of the House and the committfe will not be tied at a later stage, and that we should be able, if necessary, to enlarge the scope of this proposition. I do not know what questions are to be put to the electors. They may be put in a perfectly plain and simple manner, so that the ordinary elector can understand them, or they may be couched in such a way as to lead to unutterable confusion. We do not know what the proposition of the Government is, and if we give them power to introduce this Bill we may be told, when we desire later on to make necessary amendments, that they are beyond the scope of the measure, or that we are breaking faith.

.Mr. J. LEAHY: "1-Ve were told that last se:;:~non.

Mr. LESIN A: Yes, we have been conBtantly told so, and unless members grasp the fact that they cannot go outside the scope of this resolu­tion they will be told later on that the Govern­ment having made up their own mind their supporter" should be behind them to carry out their wishes. The majority of members do not like to he constantly forced into that position. At n certain important juncture they have either to go back on the Government or else swallow something they do not like. vVhether the Home Secre.tery gives further information or not, I may say emphatically that I view any resolution of this sort with disfavour. I regard this as legis­lation which is utterly unnecessary in n country like this. If there is one thing that Qneenslnnd has been free from it has been sectariani"n of the worst poRsible description, and once you introduce the Bible into State schools-once the Government interfere with our present system of State education-you will breed up a genera­tion who will take their religious differences into the political arena, as has happened in New

South Wales. I protest against it most sincerely, not only as an Australian, but as a native of New South \Vales who has seen the evil effects in that State. One of the best features of our political and social life in Queensland is the absence of that narrow sectarianism wbicb has been the curse of so many of the other States; and yet here we have a democratic Government taking the first steps to interfere with our pre­sent system. There is no saying where this will stop, and I regret very much tu think that a Go­vernment which came in with such S!J]endid pro­spects of doing good work should find time to deal with an utterly useless matter of this kind.

Mr. MA~N : Y nu do not trust the people to vote on thiR question.

1\Ir. LES IN A : I am willing to trust the people at all times, but tbe people h>tve not asked for any referendum on this q11estion. If they have asked for anything it has been a reduc­tion of members, and the Government do not propose to refer that question to a referendum. Traey do not ask us to refer the urgent question of the abolition of the Legislative Council to a referendum, but they do ask us to refer this question, which has not been asked for by the people. During my recent travels throughout Queensland I did not hear ten men talk about Bible reading in the State schools, and yet when pen]Cie are clamouring for relief legislation and for an amended Trades Union Act we are asked to waste our time over a wretched measure of this description. I protest against it. If there is any time to be devoted to useful work this seSRion now is the pericd to take advantage of it and introduce legislation which is demanded. I not only think this a mistake, but I think there are other matters of greater urgency rec1uiring the attention of this Chamber than a motion of this description.

Mr. J. LEAHY (Bttlloo): Apart altogether from the merits of this que'ltion, we know whnt it is, and I think it is very desirable when a question of the gravity and importance of this comes before us that the hands of the Chamber should not be tied. If it is to be an exr>ression of opinion on the part of this House, it should come before us in such a form that we will be able to give a fair and squa,re expression of opinion upon it. Now, a referendum of this kind is not a thing unknown in Austr'tlia, and we know the manner in which it has been put before the electors has not been free from abuse. In South Austmlia the question was put before the electors four or five years ago.

lVlr. BARBER : Ten years ago. ::VIr. J. LEAHY: Within a comparatively

recent period, at all event•, and it wae put in such a way that it was actually impossible to say what the decision of the electors had arrived at.

Mr. LE~INA: The same in Victoria. Mr. J. LEAHY: Yes, the same in Victoria.

I am not going to express my opinion on this subject. \Ve are merely dealing with the rights which the House will have at a later stage of saying what it thinks, and I say that, apart from all party and other considerations, the hands of the House should not be tied when this measure comes before us. The Home ehould be free to deal with it. I have a perfe<'tly open mind on the question, but the wording of the leave before us puts the question in the singular, and I do not know how the genius of nmn-even the most advanced and mtelligeut man-can put a single question which, by answering " Yes" or "No," they will be able to settle the issue before the people.

The HOli!E SECRETARY: It will be very difficult. lVlr. J. LEAH Y: It is extremely difficult. I

may be helping the hon. gentleman. I am very seriously impressed with the necessity for some considerable inerease of religious teaching for

Mr. J. Leaky]

668 Religious Instruction [ASSEMBLY.] in State Schools.

the youth of Australia at the pn'"ent time. I go that tar; hut it is not the question before uR just now. I would ask the hon. gentleman, or some other member of the Ministry-because this is a queRtion which mnst have nceived con­siderable attent~n from the Cabinet. I appre­hend that gentfemen holding the responsible position they do will not briug a question of this kind before the H<~use without it being well thought out, not only by individual member", but that it will have received the as-ent of the Cabinet sitting as a Cabinet. The Home Secre­tary has spoken, but the House will give him permission to ex plain the measure if he asks it; and, if the hon. gentleman does not think fit to do so, other m em hers of the Cabinet must Le fully seized of what the intentions of the Go­vernment are in reference to the nmtter. I do not think it is nece>sary, and I am not asking the hon. gentleman to give us the whole of the details of the Bill, but we ought, at all events, to have an assurance from the Government that when this measme goes through the House into committee, the hands of the House will not be tied by any formalities. That is all we ask for ju't now. It should not be tied up with any restrictive limitations-the House should be free to deal with it altogetlJer apart from party.

The HoME 8EUHETARY: Hear, hear!

Mr. ,T. LEAHY: 1lt is a very serious and important thing that a question of this kind should be deal c with en tirdy free from any partisan or sectarian spirit, and I hope the Government will not take any steps that will tie the House up \\ith respect to the leave which is asked for.

The HOME SECRETARY: I can assure the hon. member on that queslion. It is not the intention of the Government to make this a party measure at all. I consider that a measure of this kind should be left quite outside the limits of ]Jarty-left to the opinion of Parliament.

Mr. ,T. LEAHY : That is not the point. The point is: \V ill the H,me be free to deal with it­that there won't be any restrictions or limita­tions imposed by this motion?

The HOME SECRETARY: The hon. gentle­man has sorrl'l dbire to know what will be the nature of t hP que"tion submitted.

Mr. J. LEAHY: No; that is not the point-you understand it all right.

The HOME SECRETAHY: Broadly speak­ing, the question is bid down npun the lines of the relig-wus instruction as adopted under the Act of K ew South vValAs. It will come before the House in a very short time, and bon. mem­bers will then be able to see it for themsel ve~. The Govemment do not regard this as a party measure, and the House can deal with it as they think fit.

2\Ir. J. LEAHY: I want to know if the Govern­ment in,ist on the restrictive form of this motion? If so, it may tie the hands of the House in dealing with it.

The HO :VIE SECRETARY : As a matb;r of fact, the GovE-rntnent will deal with the Bill as it does with every other Bill.

Mr .• J. LEAHY: Is that it? Very well; you are guing to makP- it a party tneasnre.

The HOME SECRETARY: No such thing. Mr .• J. LEAHY: YPs, you are. The SPEAKER: Order, order ! ::Wr. XIJ<~LSO:N (Jliusg1•at·e): I am not \'ery

much wiser now concerning this rnotion. (Hear, hear!) I may say at this "tage that there is not the slightest doubt that members who favour the introduction of religions instruction in State schools will use the argument that those who favour a referendum must of necessity "lpport this motion and the Bill when it comes along-. Now, I am one of those who believe in' the

[Mr. J.Leahy.

prir,ciple of the referendum, and alsc one of those "ho do not believe in the intra­ducti •n of any religion into State schools. (Hear, hear!) I do not understand how a referendum can Lind the religious consciences of people on a question of this kind or any other question affecting religious matters.

Mr. LESINA: It should be a question of con­science.

:\lr. NIELSO~: The introduction of religion into State schoo's is a subject \vhicb I consider no State has any right to interfere with. (Hear, hear!) I believe that if you analyse the purpose of government, or read any authority on the Jutieo of governmtnt, you will fiuo that it is confined to the government of the people in relation to the citiz~nsbip of the State purely, and to introduce and try tu coercd the JJJiuority in religious rnatters by the vote of the majority, I rlo 110t think is a right thing- l<> do. 8upposing 95 per cent. of the people voted for a cer1ain quanticy, or a certain kind of religion in State schools, I cannot <ee for the life of me why the other 5 per cent. of the taxpay.rs sh•mld contribute towards it. (Hear, hear!) I have not the slightest doubt in my mind that, although this may be regarded as a non-;mrty measure, the good sense of the majority of the members will defeat it.

Mr. ,J. LEAHY: It will be a party measure by taking it up in the way he has done.

Mr. :NIELSON : I do not know thnt it will be affected by the stand the Home Secretary has taken up. Our secular system of education has been in force in Queensland, roughly speaking, for thirty years, and even under that system certain privileges exist for those whose duty it is to do so, as" ell as for parents, to propagate religion.

Mr. REINHOLD: Only to use buildings.

Mr. NIELSON: Certain privileges have been extended to them under the Act. vVhether they have been made use of to a smaller or a larger extent I shall not go into, but the fact remains that our Education Act has worked well for thirty years, and we are put into the position now of being asked to go back to the thing that in England to·day they are trying to escape from.

The Hmm SECRETARY : Let the people settle it.

Mr. N IELSO~ : It has been settled for thirty ye:trs.

Mr. LESIXA: Yes, and why disturb it? Mr. KIEL"lOX: Nu great section of the

people has asked for an alteration. Mr. ,T. LgAHY: It may open the question of a

national eh urch. The Hmm SEOilETARY : You forget that y. ur

Government took it U]J. Mr .• T. LEAHY: I am not objecting to it; but

I say if you take it up you must allow fair con­sideration to all.

Mr. :~nELSON: 'MembPrs have been circu. lari,ed by certain persons during the last month or two. I myself have received a circular pre­tending to tell me what particular questions are going· to be submitt._d to the electors. I am perfectly certain that the Home Secretary has seen these circnlars, and might have told us what the question was. I feel certain, if this motion is passerl, that we are restricted to the four corners of it if the Bill comes along.

Mr. J. LEAHY: Of course you are-you are locked up.

1\Ir. NIELSON: I very mnch regret it, although, as far as I am concerned, it does not matter what kind of a Bill it is-if it is for the introduction of religious instruction in State schools, I shall vote against it. If it is for a rc ferendum to teach any particular kind of religion, whether it gives freedom or restriction, or anything else, I shall also vote against it,

Religious Instruction [11 SEPTEMBER.] zn State Sclwols. 669

because I do not think the principle nf the referendum is advisable in a question of this kind or at this time.

Mr. :YicDON:i'\ELL: (PorUtude Vulley): Perhaps this may nut he the proper pbce to deal with the merits of this question at this ,tage, but I should just like tn say, as far as I am per,;o.nally concerned, that I am s•rongly oppo>ecl to thrs measure, and I thmk the Government in introducing eYen a referendum de tling with a question of this nature are undertaking- a very rlelicate taRk, anrl one which I think it would be much better if they left alone. However, I am plea,ed that the Government have ma,le this que-tion a non-party que;• ion. The Home Secretary stated tha~ the Go ,,..ernrnent were not n1aking it a pfLrty question, and it would not deter tho>e who are oppose.J to religion in State schools to vote different to what they would vote in this question. I think it is a mist>tke to try and introduce religion int" our State schools under any guise, and even on the principle of the r,·'ferendum, wl!ich we acknowledge i:-; a good system. \Vhen we come to disturb a sys•em which has proved a good and a satisfact<~ry system for the last thirty yeare, the G'lvernment are not justified in referring this question to a referendum. I wish to 'ay that I am going to oppose the Bill when it come> in.

Mr. P. J. LEAHY (Wa1'rego): I have not ri~en fur the pUflJO:se of express1ng any opinions upon the me1its or demerits of thi' particuLtr motion. I am simply in the fmme of mind which the J\linister for Railways was a few days ago, when, in answer to a qut>stion, he ~aid the views ofthP-Go\·ernmentwould. be 1nade known in due course. I have risen more for the purpose of stating that in the form we are giving this authori•y it will prevent us from amending or altering the question, as the committee will be tied up. I dn not think the Home Secretary made it perfectly clear that the Grl\ ernment will not insist npon interpretiug in a very strict manner the mode of procedure and regulatinns with regard to this matter. If we are permitted to amt ud the motion under this order, I have no objection to the matter going through now, but if \Ve are not permitted to mnend it, if it g"11es through in the form in which the Home Secre­tary moYed it, I am oppmed to it.

Mr. J. LKUIY: It can only go through in the fortH of on\' question.

The SECHETARY FOH PenLIC LAx os : Of course it c1n--you can put two or three questions if you like.

Mr. REIXHOLD: I am not afraid of having this queshon submitted tu the pc ople of Queens­land, Gecause I am perfectly sJ tisfied if they vote on it that they will vole by a brge majority agaimt the introduction of the Bible into titate schools. Neither am I concerned with the form in which this (jnestion is to go, because, no matter in what form it is prol'JosP~, I am gning to vote against it. I think this i., a conscience matter with which the State has no thin;; to do, and should not interfere with in any form. (Hear, hear!)

Mr. BAEBER (Bundaverg): I rc:;rct very much that the Govermnent have seen fit tu intro­duce a motion of this kind. If there is one piece of kgislation on the statnte·honk of this ::ltate which I do not think ought to be touche:l, it is our preRent svRtem of education.

Mr. P. J. LEAHY: It is not perfect. Mr. BARBER: I know it is not perfect; no

legislation is perfect; but I am sure that the people of Queensland, if they get nn opportunit.y of voting on this matter, will vote by a very large majority against any interference with our State schoolS) stem.

The Hmm SECRETARY : \Vhy should you be afraid of them, then?

Mr. BARBER: \Vhile, as a member of the Labour party, 1 am in favour of the referendum, I do not believe in it for a question of this kind.

Mr. LESIXA: It i' all right fur political ques-tions, b11t not for thi~. ·

Mr. BA l:tBER: While it may be right for the majority in a State to l>inrl the minority in material matters, this is purely a matter of con­science, and I do not thi11k the majority has any right to attempt to bind the minori•y. \Ve had an example within the last year c.r two in Vic-

toria, and we arA all aware that a [4 p.m.] very large majority voted against

those resolutions. In 1896 the people of South Australia vor ed on this matter. The gt-ntlt-1nen who 'vere working up, for so1ne months, an agitation, obtained the consent of Parliament t" place this matter bef,re the elec­tors, and one of the strongest arguments they n,ecl was that, seeing that the womH1 of that State were going to haYe a vote for the first time at that election, they were abs::l· lutely certain that they would carry the reso­lution in favour of religious instruct1on in State schools. The first question that was placed before the electPrs ,,f South Australia on that Ot' :asion was thi:-;: ''Are you in favour of the continuation of the pr<·sent system of edncation in Stare schools?" The result was that ;)1,744 voted for that motion and 17,755 against it. That is to say, that the electors, by a ruaj ·rity of three to one, voted against any interference with the then system-and pre·;en1J sy~tem-of educa·,ion in South Australia. I follovved the discussions on that matter very~ very closely, and I remember that two days or two nights a'ter the result of the pnll was known, something of the nature of an indignant meeting was held in Adelaide, and althnugh they had had a fair and square deal, one phmse that a very exalted dignitary of one of the churches used was thio;: "\Vhat else can you expect from the mob?"

11r. J. LEAHY: No one could utJderstancl ib the way it was put in the South Australian referendum.

:Mr. BARBEl{: I have g-iven you the firsb qnestion. The secnnd wa::;: '~ Ar8 you in favour (Jf the introduction of scriptural instruction in the State schooh during school hour.,?" Tile voting on th:1t qut:>~tion was-For, 18,889; against, :14,922. The third re.<olntion w;cs : " Arc you in favour of the payment of a copitatinn grant in denominational schools for relig;ous instruc­tion?" The voting on that was-Yee, 13,428; No, 4l,H7f>.

.Mr. J. LEAHY: They did not under•tancl the questions, or they would have voted exactly in that way on the other questions.

Mr. BARBER: The position in South Aus­tralia is t-omething on a par with the position here. Prior to the school opening f<~r the usual secnlar education, the clergy or the head master is allowed to give the children scriptural lessons. I may say that I have al11 ays been against this bu,iness, and I will also say that a' a boy who was brought up in a church school in the old country, one strong resolution which I formed in my youthful days was this: that if ever I got the chance I woulrl fmdea' onr to do my best to pre­vent religious instruction being given in State schools.

Mr. HAI\IJLTON ((hegory): I may say that I have ahv:J.ys been ag·ain~t religious teaching in State schooh. F10rn the motion on the notice­paper we cannot unclentancl whether the clergy ar• to give the instruction or whether it is to be given bv the teachers, and I object to the clergy being allowed to go to the State schools. '\Vhile I am in favour of the referendum, I do not see why this question should be singied out. If we want the referendum, why not introduce a general Bill for referendums on all gre[lt national

Mr. H n,m1:Ztnn.]

670 Religious Instruction [ASSEMBLY.] in State Schools.

questions, and let that be submitted to the people, and not propose to introduce a refer­endum for this <JUestion alone?

Mr. LESINA: This is not a national <Juestion. Mr. HAMILTON: No, it is not a national

question. Mr. J. LEAHY: A weak Government always

falls back on the referendum. Mr. HA:YliLTON: I remember, a• a boy

going to school, that when the clergy of one denomination used to come to the school, the children of other denominations would walk out. This happened on two or three occasions every week, so t'>at there were always some children outside wh'ile the religious instruction was on. Now that only tends to breed up sectarian feeling-(rPw, hear !)-and I do not think it is right that we should d,, anything to introduce sectarianism as it is found in the older countries of the world and in some of the other States of Australia, with all the bitterness and rancour that is engendered there every election time. ·we should do all we possibly can to keep it out of Queensland. There is no man in the comm1inity who can afford to choo'e his friends either on nationality or creed, (Hear, hear J) Have we not got amongst our nearest and best friends men who are of different nationality and different creed to what we are? \Ve sh0uld try to keep that feeling, and instil it into our chilrlren. (Hear, hear!) \Ve have a good system of educa­tion at present, and we should not allow any of the clergy to interfere with it. So far as lam con­cerned, I agree with the other speakers who have preceded me on this matter. I never heard anyone asking for this when I was travelling around. It is only the clergy-and only a sec­tion of the clergy-who have got this up. \Ve all know that for years under our present educa­tion system the clergy were allowed to go to the schools before school hours, if they wished to give this religious instruction to the' children, or after school hours also, but they have never done so. I think if people want to give religious instruction to children, the Sunday school is the place for it. \Vhen I send my children to school it is t? ena~le them to learn reading, writing, and arithmetiC, to fit them to fight life's battle. If the people want to have prayers said to their children, then there is no better occupation for any mother to be employed at than in teaching prayers at night-time to her children. If they want to send them to school to get religious in­struction, well, there is the Sunday school to se:'d them• to. I shall certainly vote against th1s proposal, no matter in what form it is brought in. I agree with the hon. member for Bulloo that io should not be confined to one question. \Ve have always been told that when a Bill is introduced like this, that you cannot alter the scope of it afterwards, under this order of leave, anrl only that one <Juestion can be put. I shall vote against the proposal at every stage.

Mr. RYLAND (Gympie): 1 understand that this resolution is for a special referendum on the ques­tion of religious instruction in the State schools. If you make it a general referendum on which all questions may be referred to the people-all big questions or all small questions, whenever the people desired it-then I will favour it ; but if it ~s to r~fer. only the one question of religious mstructwn m State schools, then I am against it. If the Home Secretary states that any queotion that comes before the House can be submitted to the people under this motion, thm I will s11pport it. If i~ does not propose to refer big questions to the people, then I am 3gainst it.

1\Ir. J. LEAHY: You cannot enlar«e the scope ofitatall. "

Mr. RYLAND: I would like to know that. I believe in a referendum of the people, and if we can amend this proposal in any way that we

[Mr. H amitton.

will be able to refer any question to the people, then I am in favour of it. If it is a vote on this particular question only, then I am against iL from the start. I do not believe in nationalis­ing religion. I will nationalise any industry, but I will not nationalise religion. What is the position of the old country at the pre>ent time in connection with this matter? They are doing their best to get away from it. This was e. big question at the last election in England, and the present Parliament resulted from it. People that were good friends before are falling out now and fighting amongst th•msel ves over this very proposa,l of religion in State schools.

HoN. R. PHILP (TmMsvi/le): I intend to vote for this motion, hut I think it sho<.Jd be mnended to "certain quE>stions," so as to give the House leave to amend the Bill in that riirec­tion if it wants to. If the Bill is brought in I will support the proposal to submit it to a referendum, as I am in favour of religious in­struction in State schools. It is well known that a private refPrendum w,>B taken some time ago amongst the parents of the children going to State schools, and 20,000 peop!H voted in favour of it and only a srnallnnmber against it.

Mr. RYLAND: They did not all vote. Mr. LESINA: It was a cross-eyed referen<lum. HoN. R. PHILP: It was a referendum on

this question of re:igious instruction in State schools.

Mr. NIELSON: It was more in the nature of a petition.

HoN. R. PHILP: The member for JIIIusgrave doe9 not understand the question as it exists in New South \Vales. It is not compulsory there at all; it is quite optional. Surely this Assembly will trust the people ! Surely they are not afraid to trust this question to the people!

Mr. LESINA : The people cannot settle a matter of conscience.

HoN. R. PHI LP: They are not asked to settle a matter of conscience. The children will not be bound to attend the religious instruction.

Mr. LESINA : Let them keep in their Sunday schools if they want religious instruction.

HoN. R. PHILP: I suggest that the motion be amended by making it "certain questions." If only one question is left, then the House will be debarred from making amendments increas­ing the number of questione.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE (Hon. D. F. Denham, Oxley): The hon. ·member for Bulloo a few moments ago said that it was only a weak Government that would refer matters of this nature to the people, or took action in the matter of a referendum. But I woulrllike to remind the hon. member that dur­ing the time he was a member of an Administra­tion one of the Bills that that Administration submitted was a Bill to have a referendum on Bible reading in State schook (Laughter.) The position we find onrsel ves in is this: The Administration of the Hon. R. Philp promised a referendum on the question. The league, which had been agitating for some time, pressed that matter on the hon. gentlem:>n's successor, Mr. l\Iorg>tn, and Mr. Morgan also promised it. Then ~Ir. JY1organ passerl away, and another Premier, JYir. Kidston, also gave his promise. Now, I takp it that nothing will satisfy those people unless the question, which was approved of by Mr. Philp and by Mr. Morgan, and after­wards by Mr. Kidston, is qubrnitted to the people. And the question is going to be sub­mitted now. It does not mean that the present Government even wish a change in the present system of education. (Hear, hear !) There has been a frequent request and a constant agitation on those lines.

An HONOUHABLE MEMBER: By whom?

Religious Instruction [11 SEPTEMBER.] 2n State Scltools. 671

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: -From the Anglicans eh idly, and the Methodists. As far a' my knowledge of theothersectsgoes they are pretty well opposed to any alteration in. the prPsent system of education. It is a most senons matter to interfere with our pre.;;ent system of education, and I think it would hadly be compe­tent for the House to do so. Such a serious matter as this can only be referred to the vote of the peo!Jle of the State, and the present proposal is simply that the question with which the House is familiar·-tbe question which has been promul­o-ated by the Bible in State Schools J,eague­~hould be snbmitted to the electors, so that they 1nayanswer "Yea" or "Nay." If that question be varied, then confusion may come in, and those people which have b. en agitating all along 011

this particular line ill still be dissatisfied. What we want to do now is simply to put this matter at rest and the object of the Bill i" to remit to the ~lectors of Queensland the question as to whether they desire the principle of reli­gious teaching as it is in vogue in New South Wales to be adopted in Queensland.

Mr. J. LEAHY: You are tyin~ up the House. The SF.CRE'l'ARYFuR AGRICULTURE:

No. The House is familiar with the question, which has been ar:itated in the Press for weeks past. All the Government want to do is .to kee.P faith with the people who have been urgmg thiS matter, and to honour the promise nnde by ~ur predecessors to give the electors a_n oppor.tnmty of saying "Yea" or " Nay" on thiS questwn. .

Mr. J. LEAHY: Leave the House free-that 1s my point.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: As long as the question is not varied so as to make it involved and lead to such a result as was obtained in Victoria, where they could make neither "Yea" nor "Nay" out of the answer, I do not think there would be any objection to an amendment.

Mr. TURNER (Rockhampton North): I need hardly say that I am heartly at one with those hon. members who have spoken against any interference with our State education system. 'l'his motion brings very clearly to my mind the questions which were submitted to m<; the first time I approached the elect<;rs of my dJStnct .. 9ne question was, "Are you m favour of reh~wus teaching in State schools? " To that questiOn I answered'' No." The next question was," Are you in favour of endowment being given by the Go­vernment to denominational schools?" •ro that I replied decidedly" No." The third question was, "Are you in f!Lvour of a referendum to place the matter before the people?" And to that ques­tion I answered most decidedly "Yes." In pur­suance of the promise I then gave I shall vote for a referendum on this question, though I should have preferred to have seen a general referendum Bill introduced.

Mr. PAGET (Maclcay): I think this q?estion should be narrowed down to the one wh1ch has been ao-itating the minds of the people for some time p~st-that is, Bible readi~g in Sta~e .schools on the same lines as bhose whiCh prevail m New South \Vales. For that reason, and in order to put an end to the agitation wl:ich .has been carried on for some years past m th1s State, I shall vote for the measure now proposed to be introduced. In saying that I should like also to add than when we c~me to consider the excellent system of edu.cation :ve have it; Queenslan~ at the present time, whiCh comprises np re_ligwus teaching, if there is to be any alteratwn 111 that system then the whole of the electors of Queens­land should have a voice in the matter, and nob simply the parents of children atte_nding our schools for the reason that every smgle man and e;ery single woman who i£ a taxpayer con­tributes his or her quota towards the cost of

educating our children in State schools, ::tnd it is their right to have a say in the questiOn as to whether that system should be altered or not. I shall vote for the motion.

Mr. KEOGH (Rosewood): This i' a matter which I think I should nut allow to pn.ss without saying a wo~d or two. I ~":d always ~ad a m_ost decided antipathy to rehgwus teaclnng being intro.iuced into our State schools. lYiany of the gentlemen who are now teaching the youth of Queensland are, I know, very. good, rel!gions 11ersons, but still they may hold dtfferent relrgwus views from those he:d by a great number of the parents of the scholars attending th;ir 1 e«pective schoolti · and looking at the matter m that hght, I bold t'bat "e should not introduce the religious element into our State schools. Up to the pre­sent our schools httve done r markably well. In fact there is no system of Shte education in any of the other States of the Commonv.ealth that I know which is superior to the Queensland system, anri in my judgment i~ would be better. to leav.e well alone and not mLroduce contentwus reli­gions matt'ers iuto our school curriculum. I am opposed to any sys• em of eJucation being carried out which will infrioge upon the religions views of one or two sections of the community. vVhy, for instance, should a Romo.n Cat-holic be called upon to give Bible le~sons to a Church of Eng­land pupil, or a Church of England teacher be called upon to inculcate the r~ligi~ns vi~ws of Roman Catholics? Such a thmg IS dec1dedly wrong There is, I know, a very large section of the 'community who are in favour of this pro­posal. But why do they not ~stab!ish ~ch?ols of their own and educate the1r ch1ldren m the religious doctrimes they believe in ? To-day, so far as I know, there is only one particnlar sec­tion of the community who carry out that prin­ciple. When our present education system c:1me into vogue under the late Sir Charles Lilley, there was nothing of the religious element introduced into it, and I think it should remain in that position. If· this question is brought forward now by means of a referendum on the eve of a general election, it will cloud the issue before the electors. It would be a pity if any such dispute were brought before the people at the election, and we had to fight the Plection on a religious basis. If you want a referendum, then it should not be taken at the same time as the general election.

The SECRE'rARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Nor will it. Mr. KEOG H : Should this question go to a

vote I shall certainly vote against it, on the gron'nd that I do not think it is advisable to have religious teaching introduced into our State schools, and that we should continue the present system.

The SECRETARYFOH PUBLIC LA~D8: May I be permitted to point out to the House that this motion only asks to refer to "_ C~m­mittee of the \Vhole the desirableness of brmgmg in this Bill.

Mr. J. LEAHY: No.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: If the motion is carried no hon. member will be committed to one course or another in regard to this measure. It merely asks that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of the \Vhole, and thus give us a fat· more convenient opportunity. of discussing thi~ matter. than .we shouldhavem the Home. That1s themotwn whiCh is put before the House, and how anyo':e can object to a motion such as that and vote m the negative passes my understanding.

Mr. J. LEAHY : The House will be tied down by this mocion.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: The House will not be tied down. I hope that I shall be protected against these disorderly

Hon. J. T. Bell.]

672 Religious Instruction [ASSEMBLY.] M· State Schools.

interjections by the hon. member for Bnlloo, who ha" been long enough in this House to have set a better parli,nnentary example.

:\fr. LE SIN A: I rise to a point uf order. The point is that the Minister referred to th" hon. n1e1nber for Bullon as indulging in disorderly intt>rjtctiont:-, atld you, Sir, are the judge of order, as l undersb1nd.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: 'With r· gard 'o the puint of order, it must be extren1rly C(llll-'Oling to the hon. rnemher for Bulloo to know th <t he hn such an ardent symp:cthiser as the lion. member for Clermont. I was referrin~ to the fact that we ale not com­mitt:n~ oursPlve~ to onr- cour~e or anothf'r by assentmg to tlns proposal. vVe are merely approving of g11ing into corn1nittee, where we can more cnnveniently l hr.,sh out this subject, and I venture to say that any hon. rnernber who vote.s for the motion will n~1t do so under any rnis­apprt•hension with regard to the full meaning of the question.

Mr. MACAH.T::\EY (1'omuong): I am in­clinerl t? agn-e with the opinion expressed by the .Mimsrer for Lands, that this is "motion to authorbe the House to go into a Committee of the \Vhnle to-n1orrow to consider a resolution which, I take it, it will be in the power of th~ cnmmittee to arr1end that resolution, so long as t~e amendment ;s within the scope of the re,olu­tion. Fr<>m the temper which has been displ;yed this afternoon, it seems to me that the question may not C<rme up ag"in, and it might be as well to explain the P•>Hition in which one finds one's self in connection with this question. Per­sonally, I have no hesitation in doing so, The question was sulm1itted to me as far back as 1000 as to what was my attitud•· in respect of religious teaching in St"te schools. :Niy answer was that if it could be introduced in such a lna.nner as not to c tu se offence to other denomi­natione, I would not object to it. That is the po"'· tion I take up to-d •y, and shall continue to take up tot he finish. This qu·-stion has qeen agitating the public mind for years brrek. It has been dis­cussed all over the State since 1900, at any rate, and, a;;;: a matter of fact, a sort of referenclun1 waR taken under the ans~ices of the last Administmtion, in which a large number of parents crtst their votes. It is still a question which arises on every con-

ceivab'e occusion, and I think it is [4.30 p.m.J time it was disposed of in one way

. or the other. It cannot be a good thmg for the community that this rtnestion shonld be perpetu"lly before them and unsettled. A sort of referendum has already been taken, and I would further point out that the late Premier, Hon, R. Philp, the h>te Premier, Mr. JYiorgan, and the present Premier have all pro­misJ<l that the matter should be settled by a referendnm. It is high time, therefore, that it was settled once and for all. If hon. members on the other side are so cnnfident that the ques­tion will be decided by the people in the negative, why should they reject or fear the Bill? The matter will then be practically determined, if not for ever, at all events for many years to c01ne.

Mr .• J. LEAHY: Look at the way they are tying up the House.

Mr. MACARTNEY: I do not consider that the House is being tied up. 'rhis resolution refers to a certain question, but I think the com­mittee to-morrow wilt have the option of re· con. idering the form of the resolution which they are askerl to pass, and if c<n amendment is movecl it can be accepted in snch a form as the com· mittee approves.

Mr. J_ LEAHY: Y on must get an instruction from the House with the Speaker in the chair.

Mr. MACARTNEY: Well, with all due deference to the hon. member, I do not agree

!Hon. J. T. Bell.

with him. vVhen the resolution is moved to­morrn~, if the. Gtlvernment ar.e strong enough they will carry It, but the majonty can decide if they choose to alter the resolution. If that can bt> done to-1norrow, there is no reason why we should thruw <he motion out as it now stands.

·Mr. TOLI\HE (Drayton artd 'l'ov·tcoomba): I do not d site that there should be any mis­apprehension aH t.o my attitucle in connection with thi,..; m.>tttter. On various occat'\iuns I have been before thf! electors geeking their snffrages, and the questiOn has been submitted to me whether 1 was in favour of denominational erlucation, to which I most emphatically said "No." I was also asked the question whether I favoured the introduction into the S·ate schools of the provi,ions of the New South \Vales Act rt'ferring to religions instruction, and I have alwa)IS s"'id I would be quite willing to support the introduction of these clauses. As fttr as I know, the matter to be referred to the JJPople will be in that rlirect.;on. Of cnurse, when the Bill is. introrlucert, at.d if I find it is not so, then I should feel that I am perfectly justified in taking what acti 'n 1 think right. My p«sit.ion to-day is ''ery much the same as that of the hon. memher for Toowong, and the promise I have given tu rny electors I shall faithfully curry out. Beyond that I am nnt in fav.,nr of a r· ferendum at all, because I <·a,·e always looked upnn the referenrlum a& the last resort uf political cowardice. \Vhen hon .. metr~bers are not willing to f~ce a knotty question, It IS th.-n propos· d that rt should be refer~ed to the electors. If the question e:Jme up 111 tin" Chan<ber I sh .. nld face it and answer it either in the negative or affirmative. That is the position which this Chamber should hke up on all question- instead of referring knotty q)lestions to a referendum.

Mr. SO:NIERSET (Stanley): In regard to referring this question to a reterenrlmn, I cannot agreM \Vith the hon. n1e1nber for Tnowoornba in what he says about the House deciding the ques ion. I do not think the Home has received any mandate from the peuple on this quest.ion, ancl f.,,. that reason I cnnsider it should he deci led by a referendum, and I intend to vote for the motion on those grounds.

Question put; and the House divided:­

AYES, 34.

Mr. Airey :\Ir. JUann , Barnes , .llaughau , Bell , )laxwell , Blair , ::nnrphy , Bonchn,rd ;.Jorman , Bowman O'Snllivun ,, Hridges , Paget , Cowap , Paull ,, Denham , Petrie , Dihley , PhUp , Forrest ,, Rankin , GriLyson , Seott , llargreaves , Somerset , Ha\vthot·n , Spencer , J ackson ~todart , Kerr · , 'l'oln1ie , M•teartney , Turner

Tellers: :Mr. Xorman and Mr. Bowman.

}fr. Barber , Fudge ., Hamilton n Hanran , , Ha1 dacre , , Herbertson ., Jones ll Kenua , Keogh , Land

l\Ir. J. I.eahy Les1na Llndle\·

H l\Ic!)mincll XieL~on O'Keeffe

,. Payne ., Remhold , Ryland

Tellers: i\Ir. Reinhold and Mr. Barher.

Resolved in the affirmative,

Supply. [11 SFPTE~IBER.] Supply. 673

SUPPLY.

RESUMPTION 0"' COMMITTEE.

FINANCIAL ~TATEJI[g!'iT-RESGi\IPTION OF DEBATE.

Question-That the sum of £300 be granted to defray the s.dary of the aide.de-catn[J to His Excellency the Governur-st,tcd.

Mr. RYLAND: I was very pleased with the Treasurer's Fit1ancial Srater:nt-nt, hnt there are one or t\vo things in cunueC\ ion with the Inning industry which do not aJJpear, and which I think is ftn omission on the J.Jart of the Trmt,urer. I refer to Stotte batteriPs and reducing worh. I am pleased to note the >urplu", but if the Trea8UJ er had paid our debts for the pa,t twelve months, I do not thiuk we would h"ve got a surplu< at all.

Mr. FoRSY'fH: Didn't we p:ty them all? Mr. RYLAND: No. \Ve have borrowed

a_lJlmt £t~,000,000, and there has been no provi­swn whatever made to reduce that liab litv. \Ve only silllply mett the interes~, and unlil tf1e Government is in a position tn p y sun1ething towards the reduction of that d .. bt, I do not think we can sav W<l ha,·e a surplus. I notice the amount of £127,000 h s Practically oone to wipe off old liabili<iP~; £35,1)00 has gone to meet an old deficit, and £92 000 ha" gone to the public debt reduc i<·n fund. I think we "hould devote at le••t £200,000 a year to a sinking fund for the redemJJtion of the State debt, and until some­thing is don~ in that clirec< i<>n we ca1 uot r;ay that we are in a sound financial condition. vVe may be in the same posidon that we were before, and when a drought comes along again it will mean retrenchwent all along the line. We should make ends meet and make a pro­vrston to the extent of nt least 1 per cent. -£400,000 a year-towards the reduction of our Stnte debt; and until that is done I do not think our financial position is what it ought to be. I am pleased to notice that the exemptions under the income tax are to be con­siderably increased. An exemption of £1CO is not too large; in fact, I hope that next year the exen<ption will be made £200. I think an income of f::JOO should not come unrler direct trxation such as thi,. T em ple·1sed, also, to note the increas;e of .£14,500 in hospital endowment, and of £3,000 in regar.l tn Dnnwich. I would be very ~le,lsed if the old people there got a httle better treatment than they have been getting for a long time-they coni<! do with a few more c0mfnrts. I have been told down there that they do not get any butter, and, ~eeing the pro,perous conrlition of our dairying industry, I think we could afford to give at least a little butter to the old people. The export of but.ter for 1!l02 amonnted to .£24,000, while in 1\JO?i it was £450,000, and in 1!!10 we expect it to be £1,000,000. Surely, when we are sending a\vay such large C'lll­sigmnents of butter to the old country-Bhiploa<is -we should be able to give a little to the old people at Dun wich. I mn also pleased to see that the Government havct practic<dly decided to do away with the sale of lands for revenue purposes. The total amount received from land sales last year was £8,l1ii6, consisting of small town ailotments and other emall portions of land, and I hope the time will soon come when even that class of land will not be sold. I am pleased to note that Queensland is the first State to practically do away with the sale of land for revenue purposes, and I think it is a great credit to them. I would like the Government very soon-I understood the Minister for Lands promised last year to bring in a Bill-to come along with a Bill providing for the leasing of land in perpetuity, which will be applied to town allotments and small holdings the same as applies to our pastoral industry at the present

1906-2v

timP. I think it vill be better for the working man if this provision is made. I believe the h·a~"'ing ... y:::;tem will give llH:~n a better home than the freehold 'Y·'tem "ill do, becan,e they will have more security than 1mJer the. pre.sent ::-y:-tE-m, a~ there are so many "shark~" about. i arn plee~sed to see the increases-about .£15, 000- set doc.vn for assistant teacherR; l think ther~-' is no body of men more de-erving. If we waTJt to eB­courflge pP.ople in intellig~-'nt democracy WP must have a•~ f'duca.t~ d d,_.mocracy, and nnJe ... s we have an intell'gent staff of teachtrs we c.mnot hope to succeed in this respect, and we >hall not ;ecure th"t end unle,s they are fairly pad. There are other things wl,ich I wou•d Lke tu see the Government attend to now that <hey h"ve a few po<mds tu sp 1re. I think the gateke•·pers in the Rctil way Departrnent-e,pecially w• >men-are very poorly paid, and the Govemnwnt, n11ght d·al better with them than they have beeT• d.,jng in he past. Then there are the tanber-getters. The hardest wo1ked ""d worst paid men are the timber­getters on tile goldfields. They have to pa.\ 5s. a month for a licen•e, and I would likp t<J see that done a'vay with. I am pl.•as d that the Govern­nlent have organi~ed a Dr-partment of L tbour,. and I hope it will be RJICc,;ssful. It has ueen verv successful in New Zealand. La-t vear the Go~ernment there found work for 4,873 men on Governm nt work, and with priva<e employers provided for 1,929, the total number ernpl<>yed on Government works being over t!,OOO m•·n. Although this act-ion has been criticis, din the Press, and it has b~·en stated that the Guvern· ment were too grandnHJtheriy towards working men, it has been most beneficial, and tl•e work has b<"en carried ont better and chEaper than it would have been done privately. I am t•leased to see from the report of r.he Hail way Depart­ment that £72,000 has been saved during the past year by the Government e:trrying out work themsdves instead of letting it out in con­ttact. The saving which has been t-tfecred amonnt~ to 11lH·r cent. on the gross 8XfJ8nditure of £G33,000. That i' very satisfact .. ry, and should encourage the Gvvernrnent to gn in for rnore work themselves. I do not tl.ink that they should give any work at all to out-He contractors when they can do it in this efficient manner themselves. £72,000 is a fair amount to save in connection with the 'vork on our ratlwa.ys .. I cannot congratulate the Governrn• nt on some things in connection with the rail way,, because in many instances the waget; paid a.re too low, and I think they could afford t<~ give better wages. I think a n1istake '\'as made in t:1on1e ins'-:tncrrs in railway construction in getting n1en to work at a low rate of wages-reduci,.g the average \vage. But then the;;;;e n1en were not competent or suitable for raiLvay work ; in some cases they were not physically strong enough . Great prominence has been given in the S: ate­ment to our financial difficulties with the Federal Parliament in conneccion with the Bradrlon Blot. The Premier called it a delusion and a. snare, but at the same time he is not very definite whether he is prepared to do away with the Braddon blot altogether. It is a blot on the Constitution, and the sooner rve do away with it the better. At the time we joined the Constitu­tion it was only a temporary proposal to get over a difficulty that the three· fourths should be paid back to the States. '!.'he difficulty was re­cognised at the time, and it will never be satis­factory until some other arrang~ment is made. I do not think that the Federal Government are so very much to blame in connection with that

matter. I notice that they gave us [5 p. m.] £121,000 more than we expected last

year. \V e got altogether last y<>ar £8,654 more than we were entitled to get under the Braddon clause, and since the establiohment of federation-that is in six and a-half years-the

Mr. Ryland.]

674 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl_y.

Federal Treasurer paid back to all the States £5,233,000 more than the three-fourths that he was supposed to give back; and although Queens· land did not get quite so much as her three· fourth>', still it was not much less-it waB only about £41,000 less than her three-fourths in six and a-half years. According to the Budget Speech, the Federal Treasurer expects to give the States back £311,000 this year more than three­fourths. There is increased expenditure men­tioned in the Federal Treasurer'> Budget that has been regarded with abhorrence by some members of this House, and also by a large section of the Press outside. But what does this increased ex­penditure amount to? Only £555,000 altogether. And is not Queensland not getting a share of it? I think that Queensland comes out first because there is to be an increase in the sugar bonus, amounting to £130,000. Another matter of vital importance to Queensland is thP sending of the kanakas to their own country, and the ex­penditure provided for that amounts to £25,000. This is practically money that the other States are paying to Quepnsland. Queensland, to that extent, is getting the best of the other Strctes, because the other States are contributing towardd the payment of this money, and the Queensland sugar industry is getting the benefit of it. It is estimated that the sugar bonus next year will amount to £240,000-nearly a quarter of a mil­lion of money-and that is being paid to enable Queensland to work the sugar industry with white labour. Surely we should not say that we are sorely deceived and largely disappointed on account of this extra expense. I think that Queensland comes out very well in this matter. I agree with the Federal Treasurer in connection with his proposal to federalise the State debts, and the sooner this is carried out the better. I am pleased to see that there is a proposal before the Federal Parliament to amend the Constitution in that direction, and I hope that it will soon be carried out, because as long as we have State debts, and expect to get back money from the Federal Government, then we will always have a difficulty in paying our way. Is it fair to the Federal Parliament that for every £1 they wish to expend they have to collect £4 in revenue? Out of every £1 which they raise they have to give back 15s. to the States. I think it puts them in a very wrong position, and yet some of the State Parliaments are not satisfied with it at all. Some of our State Parliaments­and I am sorry some members of our Queensland Parliament also-seem to think that it would only be right if the Federal Government spent nothing at all. We all know that when the State Government had to find the local authori­ties money to spend, it was not satisfactory, and they came to the conclusion that it would be better to let the local authorities stdke their own rates and raise their own re;•enue for the expenditure they needed, and I think the same principle ought to apply all along- the line. The Federal Government should get money how they like, whether through the Customs-house or from direct taxation, and at the same time take over a certain liability from the State. Every member of l'al'liament should look at it in that way, and he would see that federation is working- out in the way it was intended to work out.· That was .me of the strong points urged on the people of Australia- the advantage the :Federal Parliament would have of federalising the State debts. It was said that by doing that the Commonwealth would be in a better position on the money markets of the world than any of the States Governments would be.

1Ir. FUDGE : The referendum was not satis­factory.

Mr. RYLAND : The referendum was satis­factory enough. I do not agree with the Treas­urer when he says : "It is needless to say that if

[111 r. Ryland.

Queensland could have foreseen such a result she would not have entered the union." That is in reference to paying back less than the three­fourLhs due tu the States, lmt I do not think that had anything to do with Queensland entering the union at all. That was not a big quesLion at all when the vote was taken. One of the great questions that was before the people of Australia at the time the vote was t"ken was i11terstate freetrade. That was one question that was dis­cussed, and I remember the member for Bulloo himself discussing it.

JYir. ,T. LEAHY: I am sorry for it now. Mr. RYLAXD: Another que;tion was that

we might have a more perfect scheme of defence under the Commonwealth than it was possible for the States to have. Another question was that of a white Australia. That was a question which many of the people of the States believed in-especially the people of Queensland-and that it,fluenced the vote considerably, because for many years the people agitated and discussed the question of doing away with the kanakas from our canefields and from preventing other aliens from coming in their place. On several occasions it looked a> if this was going to be accomplished, when something came up and frustrated it. At any rate, that was one of the questions which induced the people of Queensland to vote for fedPration-the question of a white Australia.

Mr. FORSYTH : Who told you that? Mr. RYLA::"fD : I know that it influenced a

good many votes-far more, at any rate, than were cast because of the Braddon blot, or the re­turn of three-fourths of the revenue to the States. Another thing which induced the people to vote for federation was an Australian sentiment, and I am pleased that the Australian sentiment was shown then. A good many of the members on the Opposition side of this House were very strong in connection with the cry of " One people one de.<tiny," and became quite enthusi­astic over it. They got up in lorries and in other places, and talked about " One people one destiny," and waved flags over their heads. It was a big question before the country-far bigger than the question of the return of the three-fourths of the revenue and the Braddon clause. I think the thing that perhaps had the biggest and strongest influence in connection with the passing ol federation was that the Con­stitution was plastic to a people's will. It was a Constitution which a, majority of the people of Australia could amend or alter in any way they liked. If the Constitution proves irksome in any particular, it is only necessary to get an amend­ment carried twice in one Federal House, and if, on submitting it to the people of Australia, a majority of the States and a majority of the voters carry it, then the Constitution can be amended in any way that is wished. The Australian Constitution is the most democratic Constitution enjoyed by any people in the civilised world to-day. That was one of the greatest reasons why the people of Australin, and the people of Queenslaud voted for federation. That federa­tion was brought about differently to any other country, without the cost of a drop of human bloud. Some other countries, in speaking of their Constitution, say : "The Constitution is not a good one ; I do not like the Constitu­tion at all." But when they point to the Australian Constitution, they say that it; is a desirable one. The great objection that is felt to federation at the vresent time is be­cau>e many of the ad ;ocates of federation thought; that it was going to work out; in a different manner altogether to what it has done. They thought that it was going to have a big influence over the democratic movement, and that capital would predominate in the Federal

Supply. [11 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 675

Parliament. However, they were disappuinted. 'fhey did not get the right men in. How often have we heard it said on the floor of this House, and seen it stated in the Press, that if you could Dnly get the right kind of men in the Common­wealth Parliament, federation would be all right. The argument is that, if they could get their own crowd in, federation would be ri~C:bt enough.

Mr. LESINA: Do you approve of the Trea­surer', attack on federation?

Mr. RYLAND: No, I do not approve of any attack on federntion, but I approve of the pro­po.,al to remove the financial difficulties connected witb federation. Federation was all right until the day after the election, bnt the very next day after the federal electioa it went down 50 JJer cent. It was a splendid thing previous to the day of election. but the next morning it was a grand failure. The Minister for Agriculture said there was "large disappointment," and a~ked what benefit we have derived from feder•tion. The hon. gentleman also said we were "sorely de­ceived." I do not think we were sorely deceived in federation. I think federation is a very good thing. In fact, it has accomplished more than I hoped it would accomplish, although I was an ardent federationist, and voted for federation, and would vote for it again. For my part, I am "sorely" delighted with the result of federation; I am not a bit disappointed, and I hope the good government of federation will continue. \Ve hear federation condemned time after time, as if it had done nothing but bad, as if it had not done anything good. What should we say if the country outside did not acknowledge all the good things we had done in this Parliament? This Parliament has not done everything that is right, but it has done some things fairly well--

The HmiE SECRETARY: An astonishing ad­mission.

Mr. RYLAND : And the people should ac­knowledge that fact. I feel disappointed that we have not done all that we might have done, but we have done some things fairly well-we have given the peop!e a fait· franchise, and we have done some other good things, and we shall do something more before the next general election. I shall feel di<appointed if we do not do a lot more. But the Minister for Agriculture asks, \V hat has the Federal Parliament done? \Veil, it has given us a white Australia. In dealing with the coloured and b.naka questions it has done a grand work, and even though federation did cause a little dislocation in the State finances, I hold that the accomplishment of the policy of a white Australia was a grand work. The influx of coloured labour was a greater blot on Queensland, and a greater blot on Australia, than the Br<tddon clause is a blot on the Commonwealth Constitution. \Ve have no re~son to think tllat the Ftderal Government will not carry out the law which has been passed to secure a white Australia. The other States are pre­pared to pay their share of the cost of a white Australia, and are paying foe it in the shape of "a bonus on white grown "m::ar. \Ve have the experience of America before us in connection with the coloured qnestion. 'vV e need not go further back than our own memories will carry us to see what they did in connection with the abolition of sl:wery. Look what. it cost in blood and treasure to do away with slavery, tu release the slaves, and preserve tlte union of States in America! And the people of America think the price they paid was nou too much. I hope that Queenslanders will not think that we are paying too much for a white Australia, even though we are a little bit dbap!Jointed in not getting more from the Common wealth Uovern­ment. We shall get £240,000 this year in con­nection with the sugar bonus, and the sugar industry will be put on a sounder basis than it

has ever been before in its whole history in this State. \Ve talk in this House as if the sugar in­dustry were a failure, whereas its present output is more than double what it was when fedem­tion wa" consummated. In 1902 the quantity of sugar manufactured in Queensland WitS 77,000 tons, and this year we expect to produce 178,000 tons, which is more than 100,000 tons in excess of the quantity produced the first year of federa­tion. Some hon. members talk as if federation were going to be the death-knell of the sugar industry. \Vhy, it is the making of the sugar industry. It will make it an independent in­dustry. Before, it was carried on by slaves, and it w.1s degrading for a white man to have any­thing to do with the work, as I experienced when working on a sugar plantation. But now it is an honourable occupation, and white men can work at it knowing that they will there meet men and citizens. The great objection the advocate' of kanaka labour have to the present change is the 'ame as the great mineowners had in South Africa to white men working their mines-namely, that if they brought white men-Britishers-there, those men would h:.we a vote and would demand a higher wage. So the greatest objectwn in Queensland to the em­ployment of white men in the sugar indus­try is that they will want a higher wage and will have votes. Apparently, it does not suib a certain section of the community that the men employed on sugar plantations should have a vote on election day. Another thing that federation has done for us is that it has given ns an extension of the franchise. How long had we asked for an extension of the franchise-for one adult one vote? \Vhat hope was there of getting it? None. But federation came along and broadened the franchise. A referendum was taken on the broadened franchise. The Federal Parliament gave every man and woman in Australia a vote. I remember at the time reading in a democratic paper published in America, a statement to the effect that the greatest political event of the century was the raising to citizenship of 800,000 women in Aus­tralia. That is a noble work to have accom­plished. But it did not stop at that. \Ve have this extended franchise in pretty well all of the States of Australi<t; we h>tve it in Queensland, and at the next general election we shall have the pleasure of seeing all women over twenty-one years of age recording their votes for members who gave them the franchise and the right to citizenship. \Von't they roll np on election day, and nobly support the members who gave them the rights of citizenship? Tho.se are things that we C~re proud of. I am proud of the action of the Fedeml Parliament in that matter, and I am proud of the action of other Parliaments in emulating the example set by the Federal Parlia­ment in this pftrticnlar. Another matter in which the Federal Parliament has accomplished good work-some persons may think it is a small maLter, and others may think it is an injustice to Queensland, but I think it is a big question­and that is the wiping out of the opium traffic in Australia. This will mean a loeg of £2G,OOO in Tevenue to Queensland, but who willc.'Lvil at the loss of £26,000 per annum when they know that it will do away with opium smoking through­out Australia? Opium smoking may not he a great vice in Anstralia at tile present time, but it was a growing vice, and it is a credit to the Federal Parliancent that they have taken steps to stop the spread of that vice. 'fhose are some of the things the Federal Parliament have done for us. But look at what we may Rxpect them to do ! 'fhey are going to amend the Constitution so that they may do nobler and grander work. The Constitution is plastic to the will of the people; they can practically do anything they

111 r. Ryland.J

676 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl,1f.

w·,nt to do under it, and that is why I am proud of federa• ion. They can pass a measure to amend the Constitmion not •nly ot Qqeeu,land, but ,,f the ott1er S·ate.s, and then submit that to the people by a referendunr. \V hat better ideal of self g .. ,,ernm-·nt could e have than that? Agam, the ]<', deral Parliament is going to give us old age p .... nsiuus. That 11:1 ::;ornething we want to ,ee ace >mplisbed. Uur old people are not pro­perly d~alt with, and the sooner we get '!ld age pensi ns the better. They "'11 also natwnaii>e tLe State debts, and will give us protection that will pr»tect our industries and rh., national­isation of monopolies. The pro· ection they prnr;o~e to gh e U'i i·s real prutt"ctwn for the benefit of iuclu,.;tries thr •ughout Australia. But we do not want the class of protection which has been given in the p •st by the State

Parliaments. I . was not protection [5.30 p.m.] at all. T11ey only providtd revenue

, tanff•, and I am very glad that the Federal Parliam.,nt is going to give us pro­tection th<>t will prot et our industries. ::'i' ot only that, but che indu,tries which are gninp; to get protection will be ob iged tu pay fair wages to thA employees, and we shall not have the spectacle which we see in A·nerica nnd other countries of the manu£ cturers deriving all the benefit of pmtection and thPir <em[Jlnyees none. I do not think I will say anything more in con­nection with this matter. I am pleased that things are \.1oking up, that thA State Treasury is in a bet! er positiou, and that there 1s an aspect of prosr,erity over the land. I hope the time has gone by when there will be any serious dimiuu ion in our productions, or vv hen it will be necessary tu retrench the public servants. I hupe some ;teps will be taken to de.rl with the im­portant qnestion of th« State debts, for until something i' done in that dircctinn federation will not work as srnoothly as it nu;{ht to. I am pleased that. federation is in full swing in spite of son1e srna1l disadvan ages, and I am ctmvinced that if the pPuple were appeal.<d to by means of a referendun1 tfwy wou'd endorse the union.

:Mr. CA::\IPBELL (1lionton): I thought we should have had the pleasnre this afternoon of seeing the Tre.asnrer in hi~ place. \Vith of her hon. m,>mher,, I des;re to expres'3 my sympathy with the. hon. gentleman, and trust he will be able to re1urn to his place at no dist;,nt date. I h>tve no intention of r•·viewing at any length the Financial Stat!:-n1ent, hut I w~~uldsay, in passing, that the matter has been handled in a very able manner by members on this side, who hnve intro­duced analvses and comparisons which have been addressed to unresponbive ears, and to those who apparently are nna ble to afford any answer. I have no doubt it wearies hon. members opposite to listen to a discus-ion of figures which they are not able to follow. I am very pleased at the increa'3e of the railway revenue, which shows clearly that the c mntry is at last on the road to prosperity, largely through the influence of good sea'Ims, and not particu­larly on account of the change of Administration. Our rail way revenue is now of such volume that I think it wo·i]d only be ,, fair thing- to the pro­ducers of the s',te to make a reducti~n in htres and freights. "When thi< Parliament was elected, one of the first things I did was to move a moL ion to that effect, but it got very scant endorsement from hon. members opposite. Most of them spoke against it, and the hon. member for Gympie, who professes to be a friend of the people, talked the motion out, so that I had no opportunity of getting an expression of opinion from hon. me,mher•. In the p>tst yenr the rail­way revenue reached close upon three-quartets of a million sterlmg, at.d I want to ask the Minister if the Government have made up their minds what amount of interest they will be con-

[ Mr. Ryland.

tent with. I understood the Commissioner, a year or two ago, to state that when the earnings reached 3 per cent. it would then be time t(} consider the question of a revision of fares and freights, and according to his last re­port the earuings reached last year 3'142. per cent. Thn anticipatEd increase in railway revenue for this current year was, uccording to the Tre"snrer, £41,000, and for the first two months of the year the m·t increase was £32,000. So that I submit it is well within the powtr of the Government to assist the people by an early reducticm of railway taxation. I do not think any more desirable remission could be ma•le. D ring the administration of the Philp Governrnent, and \vhen thc-y \vere encountering their greatest difficulties owir'g to droughts, it was perh><ps jusLifiable to increase far, .1 and freights, though l opposed it. They had to raise revel. UP, and the increased freights were impliRed as a purely temporary expedient. Comp"re the condition of the State to-day with what it was then ! And yet no effort is being m>Lde to meet the unfortunate people who are settled on the land by nffordinv, them greater facili•ies for getting theic rm·duce to market. I do not know wh<~.t effect. the R ilway Bill at pre­sent before the Housp will have when it is passed into hw. If passed as it now stands, the effect will be very bad; bnt if the rate of interest is reduced, and the local authorities given 'ome say in the matter, I believe some construction will take place under it. I w"nt to impress on the 11inis:er the great necessity there is for pu,bing out railways into the timber districts. I see no reference made in the ]'inancial State­ment to the great potenti>Llities of our timber industry. It is passed over in ab-olute oileuce, and yet the tonnage it provide' on the railways is greater than that provided by the mineral traffic, and it is the third largest. reve:.ue item in th' Commissioner's receipts. I suhmit that that is a que~tion that the Treasur~~r rnight well give a greot deal of time and thought tn. If instead of concerning hinLself so rnuch about the dang-ers of federation, be devoted himself to developing· the industries of the S:a;e, and bringing popu­lation here, he would be doing better ser­vice. I submit that the Government have not risen to the occasion and done that which was required of them. They have certaiuly spent a lit.tle money in helping along an exhibition held down in Melbourne, and in that respect exceedingly good work \Va:::; done. I was pleased to see that the Director of Forests was in charge, becan3e ·he is a man who has the capacity of getting the ear of those he wants to know. The reeult of his efforts is that there is a demand for the timbers of this State which the State cannot supply, and cannot look at, because the railways are not in touch with the timber that is wanted. I contend it is tbe bonnden duty of the Government to make use of the immense amount of money they have lying idle in the shape of timber forc,sts. They own a great n1any 1nagnificent pine scrubs \V here much of the timber has matured and is dying. 'rhe gre>tt bulk of it w''" fit for re-moval ye .rs ago, and should be marle use of. The clearing- of that land would afford a big revenue to the State, besides making ronm for the young- timber to grow up again. That that would be so I can prove from an inshnce quite handy to Brisbane. In 1SH7 the Government offered the timber in the Enog,;era water reserve to the public at a royalty of ls. per 100 feet, and they received in revenue something like £2,400, and the stock is by no means exhausted yet. It is not a very large piece of country, but it shows what an immense amount of timber grows in the,,e particular localities. More than that, the young timber is to be seen growing up through

Supply. [11 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 677

the scrub that has been cleared of the last tim· ber, \'ery nicely indeed, and, with a little atten· tion on the part of the anthnritie", this wo"ld be a very valuable asset in the future. Now I want to direct attention to the report of the Director of Forests, because I think he is very insnfficien tiy provided with funds for the managemer.t of this important department. I want to say, too, in !Jassing, that the Hail way Der•artment themselves are very hard up for good hardwood. Good hardwood of the class they want is hard to obtain, and is gett.ing very costly. As a rmtttet· of fact, two large mills in Bri~bane are importing as rnany hardwnnd l~·g:-; as they can get from \V e"tern ltust ralia, and ev• ry steamer fr, ,m the south i::; bring-ing as many Jogs as th"Y can c ,rry. .Money sent out of r he Si ate in tbit~ wc1y i.s b~H.l business, and cannot be jus•ified. Here are penvle in the State wanting money to circulate an1ong,-,t themReh·es for their own benefit, and. we are fnrced to send mor,ey away to the south to enable the mill.~ here to bo kept going. 8urely there is somPthing rotten in the state of Denmark when we are f ·reed to do this wrt of thing, and it behoves us to handle the matter fairly and squarely, and not to let things go by default, as they have been doing for "''me time past. The Director of Forests points out that during the year an area of 7,9;)0 acres has been added to the reserves, a•1d an area Df 74,!572 acre·< has been excised, leaving a. net reduction of 66,632 acres fm the year. He says that the total areas reserved in thll Rtate on 31st December, 1905, was 3,G06,705 acres, or ·s-t per cent. of the area of the State. That seems a ridiculous thing-that we h~ve really less than 1 per cent. of the State in timber reserves, and he points out that this is the lowest percentage of reservation for fore., try pur]Joses in any of the .States. The following table shows the areas of the nsenes in each year since 1900 :-

Nu1rmm A~D AREA Or RESEHVE~ ON 31sT DECE)JBER' 1900, TO 19('3.

YeRr. Xo. of Reserves. 19')0 170 1901 2:>1 1902 29t 1903 327 1904 341 1805 . .. 338

A paragraph appears here-

Area-Acres. 1,622.855 2.219,177 3,12~1.160 3,518.920 3,673,:131 :1606,7<)9

:Jir. l,;ade reports the discovtry of a magnificent patrh 'Of.\ ounp; cedar on a volcanic tablelaud at a good eleva­tion, and which consists of a large number ot young trees, evidently a 'egrowth since the mnt.nre cedar was -eut out. The patch extends oYer abnn · 300 acres. and furnishes eYidence of the power of cedar to naturallv xeprodnce itself under favourable conditions. V

That is what 1 have been contending for in regard to pine. Pine timber-our s"H wood timber-is of more mo.'erial ad,·antage to tbe State than any otl:ler timber in it. People will be able to make more money out of pine th"n out of other timbm·, because we can Pxport it. 'vVe have got the timber, but we want the means to get at it.

Mr. PAGET: Builcllight railways. Hr. 0.-\.MPBELL: Light rarlways or tram·

·ways will do it, but sotne nle,_~,ns of a.p}1roach to that timber is nece'"ary, or it will simply Wllste. He says-

::\11·. Burnrtt reports with regard to the l'Pprodnction of our famous soft wo d-hoop pine-that lw has obser,·ecl nuttlerous instances of its satisfacton repro­duction on cnt-over areas where tlle forest has been allowed time to l'PCO\"Pr

It \Yill be seen that the \YOrk of the forest 1'angers has been almost wholly confined during th,~ year to the wo1·k of excising from the timber reserves Hreas su 1t­abll~ fr)r settlement, in reality working in the interests of land selection rather than in !hat of fort'<.trr.

There may be a certain proportion of Ianti included in the forest 1·eserves which it may be thought rtesira1Jle .to excise in the interests of land settlement, but a fly_

ing visit from a. ranger is not sufficient to determine just what areas may be safely ex,•i,'il'd. It would be sound economy. in the intert ~;ts of t.tmbet'rEsPrva.tion and land settlc~ment, to providea.sufficientstO'df to maim what may be called a "cemms" oE these l'Pserves, and to arrive at ~ome finality with respect to the areas which :shttll be reg1Lrdecl as :State forests in perpetuity.

I thoroughly endorse what the Director of Forests says in that connection. It seems to me a rrlORt in8ane policy to :-:tarve a dt"}.Jart lllt>llt that ha~ ~mch irnmf'n~e poss1bilitie~. l-Ie1e is an jm~ tnense a~sPt we ha\'e at hand-it i~ ~t harvest ready f->r the reapi,,g; we have sitnply to provide the me~ns of taking it away, aud the peovle will derive the rev-enue.

lYir. PAGE1': And there is another crop grow­ing all the T iniP.

Mr. CA'\TPBELL: Another crop growing all the ti<lle. That points to the fact t;·at it is only l'riv,;te land that is now a\·ailahle. \Vii h the excPption uf the I(ingaroy district, the mnount uf timher ,.,·ailai,le is simply on private land. He p•duts out here in this r··port-which is a Yery valuctbl~ one indeed; the case he wakes i~ very clear cut. and dis inct-

Jt. may be pointed out that the reveuue derb·ed by tbe Govern m! nt frorn the sale of timber as it !'ltands in the forest is only :t very small portion of its vain'? to the State. .I!' or every £I no J);lid in royalty on hoop-pine, for ex nnple, £:.?,!100 is spent in wag-es fol' entting, haul~ ing, and sawing bBfore it is ready for the market in the form of rou~h planks or fiitehes. All thi~ money is spent in the State, and goes to support an industri(lus cla:ss r,f people. In fact, of every thirteen pe1·sons in the Sbtte. one is directly dependent on the tunber in~ dustry t"or a living. ~

It would he very difficult to find a better argu­ment to support the irnp1•rt"nce of this !Jarticular industry than the fact that one in every thirteen of our p»pulation is dependent on the timber in· dustry-

It has 1Jeen estinmted tlmt there j .. , 3,000,000,000 superficial ft'0t or pine in Queensland, and I con~ider this a low cstitn:lte. The value to the State of this tim .. bPr may be reckon d at £22, GPO,OOO, at I5s per 100 superfieial feet, which is its present prier, with a strong tendeney to rise.

I want the Committee to relllise what these figures mean-3,000,000,000 of superficial feet in Queens· land.

Mr. KBRR: And still they only pay men five "bob" :1.~ day.

Mr. CA:'IIPBELL: We are to have wages hoards soon. Of course there is a strong tAndency to ri:-:e beccUJRe timber cannot be g'•Jt, The tinl­bAr-gettf-'rs have ~o rnuch further to go for h; then cattle are bting worried to de>et.h v. ith ticks and rech\·atcr, BO tt at pricdS n1ust ri:3e-

It. may, of eourf:ie, be said that the labour expended on the timber s.hnuld not be c•·cditecl to the IYL fit )•lHlloss acr·outtt, of tllc Kt ate. but I may point unt tnat, if the cost :lf ~old mining were dednct" cl from the value of the gold obtah1 ·cl. i.t wonl•1 ap1v-.Ll' t.Jmt the enormous we:tlth l•f go lit j'carly ta.ken from the e<Jrtll in Qneens­lanrt is a. dil't'l~t lo:-;~ to the :State. which wnnld. of C'~ll'Se, be an ab·nullity. Comparerl "\YiV1 th(~ value of t.he ti.mt1er 111 a broad natioto:<l ba~is, the va1ue of the sm:.tll roy iltv rc:>crivecl would appe.s to be more in the direetio;l or' chc •king- wn?.te and destruction than in provifli.ng a revenue fot· t-he Stttte.

I want to sav in this connec: ion-I am snrry the :Minister for.Lands is nnt in his place-I think the roy<>lty nn tilllber will stand increasin!j in variouN diRtricts directly mP't!ls of O••llJITllUllCf1-

ti . .n 8re mac!e, and tiJC royalty should he med in two direct.io~n~; firstinpr(Jvidingroads tu haul the timhf'r to the railwa,y line, nr tralll~\ ays, a,., the ca"e rnay be; and, ~econdly, for developing and he!ping along fore-.t cnn"t-rvation in all i_ts different pha>es. I know of no O' her "ay m which the money could he more wisPly spent. It me"ns railways or tra111ways, but, as the pre­sent head of the Rail way Department knows, rail ways to timber districts could be made t.o pay

Mr. Gampbell.]

678 Suppl,y. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

from the jump, because timber is one thing which more than anything else would make a railway pay. The country is starving for trade, and vessels would come here to carry stuff. As a matter of fact, the trade which is being done now in soft timber would be easily doubled if the rr.eans of communication only existed, and the only body to provide communication is the Government. All these railways must be owned by the State; if the Government will not extend these rail ways thi" industry will soon be Htarved out. During the year the Director of Forests says the timber trade has incre·•sed, and quotes a table showing the progress of the saw· milling industry in the State during the past year-

The following table shows the progress or the saw­milling inclustryin the State dnring the past year. The soft woods cut show an increase of 2,250.000 of feet over the quantity cut in 190-t, while over 500,000 feet more of hardwood was cut. As might be expected, the quantity of cedar cut wa..., 193,018 feet less thn.n in the previous year. This extremely valuable wood has now reached that stage at which it cannot be retained as one of the State's resources, save at considerable expense.

I want to say, in connection with the increase he points out, that it is owinf( to the export

trade in soft wood down south. The [7 p.m.] mills have not b~en increast'd; as a

matter of fact, there has been a de­crease of one, and it is simply the effort to make and keep this trade down south which has made trade good. He continues-

It will be seen that last year the States comprising the Commonwealth imported from foreign sources, chiefly Norway and Sweden, Canada, and the United States, timber of the valuesfollowing:-

Imported by~ £ Victoria ... Xew South \Vales South Australia 1Ye.stern Australia ... r_ra~mania

Queensland

rrotal Then he goes on-

531,078 336,689 1~2.9:'53 83,326 10,137

2,892

... £1,087,075

rrhis is nearly all for soft woods. ~one of the soft woods imported are superior in quality to the hoop-pine of Queensland, and seYeral of them are inferiot·. Their importation is po:>silJle because wages are so much lower in the countri\:s from which they are imported, because forestry has received much more attention in Sweden and Sonv:-ty th\Ln in Queensland, and their export trade is better orgahised, and becau.':le sb1ps trading to An~tralia e,U"ry timber cargoes at a cheap rate, taking wool, etc., as return cargo. '.'fit h the influx of population to Australia these eonditions will cease to exis1. The demand fot• soft woods and furniture w 10rts will become urgent and mueh greater than at pr,_~ent, steamers will ha Ye better loading- and will not seek to bring timber so cbPaply, the gtowth of industries will demand more of our ow11 ra.w material; but, alas, there is every f-lign tlutt in tho~e clay:s Wlj :shall be short of the tin1ber wllich will be absolutely necessary to our handiCJ•afts and indu'5tries. Those words ate true, every one of them. There is no doubt whatever thac our pines can be userl for every one of the pnrp'>Sco referred to. The exportation of our soft. woods, while it may not be a goud thing for onrselYH, will be desirable for our rail ways. The revenue derived from the timber and firewood durinf( the year ended the :10th ,Tune amounted to £D7,000,'and it is no s~ret?h of imagination to say thrtt, given commumcatwn to areas that I know we have not so very far distant from centres of popu· latinn, we can very easily double that sum.

The SECRETARY l!'OR AGRICCLTCHE: Can you indicate where tho~e forests are?

Mr. CAMPBELL : There are a great many of them, and the hon. gentleman is just as familiar with s'me of them a' I am. The Director. of Forests can f(ive the h•m. gentleman a lot of mformation about them which will be of great service. There is no doubt that we have the

[Mr. Campbell.

timber. We have 3,000,000,000 feet ofthattimber' I ought to know something about it, as it is '' trade that I am intimately connected with, and one in which I take a great deal of interest. I also take a f(reat interest in the State, and I want to see these industries that will belp the State get help and ene:ouragement from the State.

The SECHETARY FOR RAILWAYS : A railway will be rmilt through the Blackbutt district.

Mr. CAMPBELL : I am very glad to hear it. It is very necessary. I am pleased to say that the hon. gentleman did me the conrtesy to grant me some of his time on a visit to my district, and he was so impressed with the possi­bilities of that district that he had an inspection at once made, and I am sure that the report furnished to him will justify him in authorising railway ex'ension to that district. There are large SU):plies of both herdwood and firewood there.

THE SECHETAHY FOR AGH!CUL'l'CllE : Is that at Wood ford? ,

l\1r.CA:\IPBJ1~LL: Yes. Iam.<nreyouwillfind every justification for building the railwav they require. Another proof that we are out of touch with the timber industry is that we haYe on exhibition in South Brisbane hardwood which has been imported from tl:e sonth in large quantities. There is something wrong when a foreign cmnpany, so to speak~ can come. here and successfully compete with those engaged in the industry.

The SECRETARY FOR AGHICCLTURE: '\Ve are sending away a lot of pine.

Mr. CAMPBELL: Yes, but the point is that we are getting the other.

1Ir. 'l'unxER : How do their prices compare with the local timber?

Mr. CAMPBELL: Their prices are lower than the local prices. Their pine cos~s the 'ame as ours, but their hardwood is less, and that makes up for it. Their hard ward is a waste product in '\Vestern Australia, and they are bringing it in here and practically dumping it down to make up for the other trade. At any rate, they are here, and that is evidence that something requires to be done to keep the trade alive and, if po·;sible, to make it grow, ar.r] that can only be done by the extension of our railways. A recent estimate of the amount of white pine available in New Zealand gave 1,71G,835million~ of superficial fee~. That is about half of what we have, as I believe our figures are tremendously untler-e ,timated. I am sure if the h<m. f(entleman collected the amount available in the \Voudford district tbe result would astonish him. \Vhether this new Railway Bill includes the timber areas or not, I say there is a necessity for getting into communication with our timber districts by rail way or some other means. There is another possible danger that exists in connection with the timber industry. 'l'here is an enormous quantity of timber coming clown from Manchuria by the steamers which trade there. This timber is brought to Brisb~ne, and they ask for an offer. They say, "Look at this pine and see if it is good enough for your purposes." It is said to he very suitable, and nnle>s we do something to get at our own pine forests, we cannot help OlHRel ves.

The f:',ECHETARY l!'OR AGRIC!:L'fCHE: The forestry Bill will deal with consen·ation.

Mr. CAMP BELL: I hope money will he spent in that direction, as it will help the country later on. '\Vith regdl'd to the L~nds Depart­ment, I want to exprn,< to this Committee my greatT appreciation of the vay ready response made by the JYlinister for L<~nds to an important request that was made to him for better .roads in the district I represent. I was asked to bring under his notice the spirit of self-help that was being manifested by the people concerned, who

Suppl,y. [11 8EPTEMBER.] Suppl,y. 670'

wrote stating that they were jammed and could not get their produce to market at a profitable price unless a much better road was available. They offered to put in a considerable quantity of labour. I took the proposal to the Minister, and to his credit-I say it unreservedly-be at once saw the fairness of the proposal, because the local authority concerned was unable to do it; and as there were a lot of Crown lands there that could possibly be made available, he at once agreed to the propoRal and the road was rr.ade.

Mr. KENNA : Did he add the cost to the Crown land?

Mr. CA~IPBELL : The Minister can tell you that himself better than I can. It is to the credit of tbP Minister that he readily responded, and the road was made. The :Minister deserves a pat on the back for that, and I am trying to give it to him. More of that sort of thing require~ to be done, and as there is more wanted in my district I shall probably approach him again. The road I refer to was made over the Blackall Range, and in addition to providing work for the unemployed it was a substantial benefit to the country, because it has made available Crown lands at a prica more com!llen­surate for the cost incurred. Now, I want to say a word or two with regard to immigration. I see that the vote of £4,000 is provided under this bead for passage money. I submin that that amount should be £40,000. This country can never be what we hope it will be without popu­lation, and we must do something if we want to bring people here. Dnring last year, when on a trip to the old land, I h:.d an opp•lrtunity of seeing what was being done there on the part of other countrie.; to encourar;e immi­grati:m. I discovered all thruugh Englo.nd and Scotland that Canada was particularly alive. Y on could hear about the Canadian efforts in every direction, but I nevPr heard once about Queensland. ·when I talked ab:>nt Qlleen•land people seemed to have a hazy idea where it was, and money will have to be spent if we want to get a share of the immigratiun that is taking place. At one place, where I met with an acci­dent and was detained in the hospital for two and a half months, I discovered tbatthe Canadian methods were son,ething like this: One of the agent' of one of the principal cities in Camda came along into the small centres and discovered the men who were most popular, had a talk with them, and m~de a proposition. In several cases they took men to Cttnada to make themselves familiar with the surroundings there, and then they came back and lectured to thdr friends. They attended social funct.ions, and in between the fnncrions they talke·:! Canada, Canada, Canada all the time. The re,·ult was that they succeed in depopulating a whole lot of those places.

Mr. MAl:GHA:'<: \Vhere? Mr. OA:\lPBELL: In England and Seat­

land. Some of the smaller places have been absolutely cleared of the elig-ible portion of the· population, only the elderly portion being left.

Mr. MAUGHAN: \Vhat part? Mr. CAMP BELL: In the place where I was

in the Highlands of Scotland. Mr. LESI:-<A : Couldn't they make a living

there? Mr. CAMPBELL: No. The hon. member

for Cairns stated the other night that he came from the old country to this State and engaged for some six months on a sugar plantation, but the conditions of the work were so utterly re­pellant to his soul that he made a vow that he would never again work on a sugar plantation. The hon. member then went to work on a rail­way line. The hon. member further stated, in reply to an interjection, that unless something was done we should not attract people here from

the old country, because the conditions under which they labour have improved very much, Had the hon. member remained at home, I can tell him-and I was anchored practicC~I!y in the locality from which he came-he would have been a nobody to-day. Yet the hon. member comes to a place like Queensland and decries sugar-field work. He does not like work. I think he was born tired, and that that is the reason he could not make a living at home. I deplore the fact that men at home have to work for such starvation wa,;-es as they receive, and that owing to the· climate their work is by no means regular. During the time I was there I saw the sun only twice, as it rained continuomly. Yet the hon. mt>mber for Cairns wants us to believe that it is a de,irable country to stop in, and that conditions of labour there nre improved. I know a man who was working as a joiner there, andbewasafirst·classtradeHnan-for I s:1w some of his handiwork-and he was getting the enormous surr1 of 4s. per day after Merving an apprenticec;bip of six years, and he nid not get regular work at that wage. The farm labourers have nothing like regular employment, as the climate, especially in winter, interferes with their work. However, with regard to the ques­tion of immigration, I think the Governmel).t would du well to adopt some of the methods employed by Canada, and get directly in touch with the people concerned. Get a man who understands the people, bring him out here, let him have a look around, and then let him go back, and get to work to induce people to come to Queensland. I am sure that very good results would accrue from such a system. Now I pass on to the matter of central sugar-mills. I am in a measure compelled to refer to this matter, be­cause the actiug lender of the Government, and the Secretary for Public \V orks, in the course of their speeches in this debate, alluded to the sub­ject I introduced iu the speech I delivered a week or two a~o. I find that in the re[JOrt of the Comptroller of Sugar Milh for 1905 the whole of the acreage under mortgage to the Government in connection with the various central mills is valued in this way: 20,000 acres cleared and under cane, valued at £120,000; 42,000 acres suitable for crmegrowing but not cleared, valued at £38,000; and 58,000 acres unsuitable for cane­growing·, valued at £14,500. The point the Minister f,r Agriculture tried to make m connec­tion with the district I re1Jresent wa' that a great mnny of the men who n!Ortg,•ged tlwir lands to the Government were not nsing their lands for the vnrpoHe of gro\ving cttne. It is a notorious fact that a great deal of trouble was experienced in that district in getting people in the first in­stauce to put in their lands for the purpose of getting a rnHl. Ti,e men who were inRtnunental in getting the More ton mill were public spirited men who oWn<"d a quantity of land, and they had prnctical!y to put in additional areas from time to time as hecurity, because other farmers held aloof from the project. The men who put in this land did so in good faith, and they were not to know thnt some of the land which they were called upon tu give as "ecority was not suitable for c megrowing. A grent many of the farmers who are growing c1ne sncceR~fnlly for the mill, and who are deriving an vantage from the mill, are men who absolutely refused to mortgage their lands for the purpose of erecting the mill. They stood clear the whole time, and they were therefore able to negotiate for loans to emible them to grow cane. Tile other men who had mortgaged their lands as security for the money advanced to build the mill were unable to rai;e money for t 1ltivation on account of the mortgage exiHting over their bnds. Yet the men whom the present Government. are making so much of to.day are the very persons who

Mr. Campbell.]

680 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

would not tRke upon their shoulders the burden the other people who mortgaged their land3 were braring. The Treasurer Hays, "I am fore~ clos ng on all these mills; I am foreclosing on this particular :iYI<>reton Central 1\Iill, and taking it from the people who had to do with it originally, and I am going to make it a co­operative conctrn cf caneLlrn1ers." \V aB thu'e -ever a rncrt" iniq uit11us robbery prl1posed? How can any lllany ju,tify a pr.,po>ition ,,f that kind? I know th1 ee ur funr ca~es in "hich the men who originally wortgaged their lands for the purpoRe of estahbhing tile mill had repe;ctedly to put in additional land, and now the far:ner' ontbi<Je the shar• ho ders who are growiBg cane for the mill and tnaking a very guud living ou~ of it, and who are absolutely free, are tu eujoy all the advantages which have accrued frmn th~·seshate­holders rbking their 1'1>nds-lands which are now to be cmdi-cated. Surely this sort ,,f thing i' not going to bP allowed to be done! Snrl'ly nJ Government C"illlllg theruselves honest "ill allow an act of this kind to be perpetrated ! I bo1 e the matter will be reconsidered. I would ask the Miuister how n1any of those are growing cane on rnt•rtgaged lands? I rnay inforrn the House that many o£ the cane farmers who are now growing cane did not do so at the time the mill was projected. Since Dr. Maxwell as,umed control of the mill he has approached a lot of those cane farmers who are absolutely free ot the mill, and offered to make a contract with them for a term of ten years, an•l to extend the tramway to their fields. This fair-minded gentle­nJan, who run~ the ulill, cornE:S along, and E:ays, "I am prephred tu make a ten-years' arrange­ment with you, to give you a certain price, and tu extend the tramway to your fields." And he has done it in a great many ca8es. Is that a fair deal so far as the people who risked their lands in the first instance is coucerned in order to get a mill in the district? I think it is t<ot, and I believe that no fair-minded member of this Assembly will say it is a fair thiug. It is calmly propos<d that the Treasurer shall practically clooe down on those who have land and have not hitherto grown cane. A lot of those lands, according to Dr. J'.Iaxwell, r.re unsuitable for canegruwing. _.._<\re n1en to grow ear.e on Ltnd that is unsuitable for that purpose? ls the lwn. gentlernan serious in rrtaki11g a proposition of that kind? .\Vhere W<·uld the lairue's of thac k nd of thing be? Thoee rmm did not know that the land- was unsuitable for ean12growing when they were a&ked to put it in as :,ecurity hy the Govern­ment. of the day. The lands were valued by the Go,·ermnent uf the day, and they are reSIJOll~ib:e ff1r accepting thern us security. 1'hese un~uitablelands C'111nor- Le used for sugar~ cane growing, and they ought uot to be taken or crmfi~c.,ted for any other purpose. I know a farmer at Dulong ho sp,nt at least £L,OOO in clec>ring ami planting his land on t11e ]ll'Ulllioe of the then directorate of the mill that the tran,way would be exte11ded tH that, prtrticular locality, but the tramway was not ext• nded there, and after two or three years i hat wan had 'o burn htR cane. Is that man's land to be confi<ca.ted? W uuld it be a fair thing tn take his land? I say no. Any Government propming to do such a thing are practically rt,bbln.~ the P~-'OI•le of their inheritant e. The Moreton mill has now more cane than it can crush, and that beiug the case, I "ant to know "hat thH Government are going w do with tbo·,e lands which they propose to btke fr01n the unfortunate n1ortg:-:~g~ .rg-Jar1ds which are suitable for canegrowing and which are m proximity to the mill. The rnili does not nel-'d any mure ca.n e, becausP, as I have .said, it has more t.h; n it can crush. The nnfortunate people who were not in a position to grow cane, becau"e thei1 lands were mottgaged and they

[Mr. CampbeU.

could not raise money for cultivation work, now have their lands t"ken from them ; and w h~t are the GovernrW.:'IlL g'•iug to do with th•1Re lands? Surely no Government C,J,Iling- themselves reput­able or honest will attempt to take land from p.ople under those C<l!ldltions and sell it forcane­g•owing, because thty do nut require more cane for the mill, when the owners of that land gave a ruortgage uver their prop.,rty in go•Hl faith for the purp«se of starting the mill.

.\Jr. KENNA: Land near the mill should have been cultivated.

Mr. CAMP BELL: I did not say that any land in p1oxilllity to the will has not been cultivated. Dr. .\Iaxwell, supported by the Tr~a~:mrer, says now th-tt he is going to turn these ruills into co-operative concerus, and hand over the mills to the canefarmers who h.we had little or nothing to do wil·h their establishment.

Mr. KEXNA : That is part of the scheme.

Mr. CA.\lPBELL: I don't know what sort of a scheme you call that. The h"n. gentleman

a little while ago could not say [7.:~0 p.m.] enough againot Dr. Maxwell, bnt

now heappe"r' to have been squared in some way. 1 think I have made myself pretty cle<.~r on the main point, The men who are growing the cane in t hi' distrtet are the men who took no risk at all in the establishment of the mill. They were absolutely outside of it, and refused to have anything to do with it. They looked upon it as a very doubtful propo­sition in seveml ways, and yet these are the men who are to reap the advantage. Eighteen months ago Dr. Maxwell practically warned the nwrtg-,gor1:3 not to grow any n1ore cane, because the mill was more than supplierl, and the men who wanted to ~row more cane were absolutely precluded, He has seated the lives out of these men, and terrorised over them in ev&y pos­sible way. I submit that hon. members of this Huuse will not be parties to a transac­tion of this kind to rob these unfortunate people of their inheritance. They risked their all. the;- bore " the heat and burden of the day," and now it is proposed to rob them of their land. The free lands that I have referred to were originally o£ the same Yalue as the mort­gagf'd lands, and the entire advantage of the establishment of the mill has accmed to their owners without anv risk whatever, and yet the 'rreasurer con1es dOwn aud sa vs to the owners of these free lands. "You are the l)eople who have pulltd this mill-out of it' diflic<~lties, and I will hand over thtlmill to you as a co-operative con­Cf'rn." Was there ever such a InonE:trmt'3 pro~ posal? I cannot unclerstand people calmly sit in~\ down and listening to such a p1·oposal, w:.ich seems to be nl·terlv outside the hounds of common sense and justice. 1 know that many of the peop1e who mortgaged their lands cut them up and let them out to smaller men, bu· what was t.here wr<>ng in that? I

· h>tve heard it said that these men seized the gre.tt opportunity that lay in front of them. Bnt what dnes De. Maxwell pr •pose? Simply to seize their land and h md it over to others. Surely t,he peop~e who rick·d their all are entitled to the lmprovec.1 value just a~ n1uch, or n1 ~re so, than those wh·• rbked rwthing. \Vhy, there is a big piec" o£ hnd quite close to the mill belonging to a financial in'3titut.ion. Th t land was never mortgaged, and yet the owners reap the entire advantage of the establis~ment of the mill without anv risk at all. The bon. member for Mackqy the' other night gavP. us a most, clear and conolu.--ive exposition of thE' state of affairs. He proved that for severa1 years in succeRiliou the ct~ops:; \Ve'e strick~n with drought, and that it wa:s utterly impossible for this Moreton mill to be supplied with cane.

Suppl_y. Lll SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 681

Mr. KENNA: One year the growers sold their 'Cane as fodder.

Mr. OA:\IPBELL: \Vel!, the cane was no earthly use for anything else, and it ~ervec! a very good purpose indeed by keeping stock alive during drought timP. I want Bo say here that I feel very much indebted to my hon. friend, the member for ~Iaukay, for the gre1tt intelligence which he brought to bear on this subject, and for his marvellous grasp of the .vhole business. He demonstrated beyond all question that Dr. ::\lax­well is not entit.l<·d for one bit of credit in con­nection with the altered cundition of this More­ton mill. It is absolutely due to the improved ·seasons and to the difference in the price of sugar. I have shown beyond all doubt that these people were hampered and tied clown in every possible way by climatic conditions over which they bad no control whatever. The Treasurer seems to have been absulutely hypno­tised by Dr. ~Iaxwell, who does not seem to be able to grasp the situation or understand the true facts. Dr. Maxwell is not entitled to claim credit for the improYecl climatic cond1tions, or for the improved price obtainable for sugar. One naturally asks, 'Vhat is the price we are paying for all this unnecessary interference? What are we getting for cur £3,000 a year? \Ve are supposed to be getting a business man to control this ~ugar business, but I submit that we could for £500 a year get a better business m>tn than Dr. Max we 11. I believe he is negotiating at the present time for an extension of his engagement at £2,000 a year. He is willing to drop one-third of his "screw" and continue on in the Hervice of the Government. I cannot un<1erstanc1 a man who is so economic·al in the administration of his department. as the Treasurer allowing one man to take such a slice out of the revenue as £3,000 a year for the work which he does. lJr. Max­well has mesmerised the Treasurer, who thinks he can do no wrong. I notice that Dr. :i'vlax­well took a trip aw>ty from the State at the tmd of la8t year, and on his return he was interviewed in Sydney. He sp •ke about a millionaire named Spreckles who was prepared to erect a lirst·class refinery in Sydney and to take over these central sugar-mills. Now, I wonder if thE·re i,; any scheme at the bottom of this. Is it not nossible tlmt the whole of the machinery is beit,g worke·l in one direction whereby this man may bring about clisast.er on the people connected with the mills oo that he can help his Y"nkee cousin and make a good deal with the 'I'reasmer? lf the Treasurer saw that he could come out clear and make a profit on the mills perhaps be might entertain sncb a propps,>l, but I do not believe be is game, unless he wi,;bed to ri·k the chance of going out of office.

Mr. LESINA: \Vho would put him out if he did do it?

Mr. OAMPBELL : I suppose the country would when they understood the transaction, but I don't think the party sitting behind the hon. gentleman wonlcl endorse such action. It .seems to me an extraordinary thing that all this unreot and trnuble and anxiety nf mind is cam eel for no earthly purpose. The mills were getting into a first-class position when Dr. 1\Ir.xwell comes do\vn and s,1.yt~, "I arn going to seize your land." It is a rnost iniquitous buf'iness from start to finieb. The output of the More ton mill for the 1903 sPason was 972 tone ; for the sea·,on 1904-5 it w ·s 3,222 tons. ,Just contrast those figures-2, 250 tom; of sugar per year more, and £2 10;. a tr.n more. Is there any reason on earth why a man should not be absolutely and primarily successful under these conditions? He cannot help it; it tumbles into his lap at every direction.

Hon. R. PHILP: All fair sailing.

Mr. OAMPBELL: Yes. Dr. Maxwell says on page 17 of his report for hst year that the mill was then engaged on 41,000 tons of cane for the 1905 crushiug- against 18,000 tons, which be says W>ts the largest crop ever grown under the old management. The audacity and Msumption of this individual is simply surprising. He has not got the common hone'sty to admit tbat the 26,000 tons of cane crushed during the first year of hiB rnanagernent were grown under the old manageUJent. It was the product of the old 1nanagement; he had nothing to do with it except take it to the mill and crush it, and yet he is not me.n enough to give credit to the old management for the 26,000 tons of cane, but quietly snaps it himsdf. I Ray the thing iR dis· g-raceful. I take it that one of the problems which the Government has to solve in this matter is "hctt are thPy to do with Dr. l\1ax­well? Here is a man engaged fur the years. \Vhen I had occasion to "pe>tk once before, I pointed out \lv.t it was a re~! bad bnsineso deal to engage a man who had alrearly two years to run at £3,000 per annum, aucl give him a three years' extension. All the mills will be practically cleared up next year, and they may e>ch of them d:llln their poRition. \Vhat beJmnes of Dr. ~faxwell ? They have got him on their hands for three year.;, at £::1,000 a year. I take it that be will be a pemioner un the State for £3,000 a year. That is one of the problems, and they do not want theBe mills to go out of hand. They want to control the position by making co-operative concerns with Dr. Maxwell as chief, so that they can justify this expenditure of public money. I have given ample eYidence of bow Dr. Maxwell has infer­ferecl and is continuing to interfere in political matt.ers. I pointed out the othPr night another of the reasons why they >tre anxious to get this business closed up, when I quoterl Dr. l\Iaxwell's speech to the m"nagement of these six central mills. They have committed a great many heantiful acts in connecti•m with these mills, 1nd they are anxious to have all these "cronk" m<>tters covered up so that there c>tn be no action against the Government. That is the biggest reason they hwe for trying to bring this about in the way proposed. But I submit it wnulcl he much more honest and defensible to go to the mills cunc~rned, and allow them to exonerate lle. l\Iaxwell for the previons ext,enclit"re he has incurred unnece;;Farily, and say, "Let us cry quits," and I think <hey are willing to do it. Th,tt will be a bet\er thiog for the mill, concerned, if the Government want to do justice to these men, than what they now propme. I cannot undeutand why these mills should be taken awav at all or the lands either. I think it will 'be a gain to the country to have an ir1quiry into the management of this Sugar Bureau right through. I would like the l\iiniscer in charge uf the Government to-night to prom1se that he will table a detailed accounb of the adrnini::;tration uf the trn ')t, fund account of the'e mills. l am quite sure if we could get that, that we should have our eyes opened in a way which would astonish mo.>t people, and I will take other ;;teps to obt"in t bat information unless I get" promise from the :iYiinister iu the ordinary w~y to-night. In cunnection with Dr. MD,xwell, I will read a later letter from a sugar-planter in connection with the Gin Gin Central 11ill, after which I think every hon. member will b" sati-fied that we have had quite enough of Dr. ::\hxwdl. I hope, ab any rate, that the day for inttDr ing experts on this scale will cease. \Ve have in this country any anwunt of fir:3t-class talent, and nur own tnen ought Lobe given a show in matter,; of this kind. Wtiy should we pay these extramclinary salaries to men who have no experience in this country,

Mr. Campbell.]

682 S1tpply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

but come here simply to exploit? We have had evidence in this House before of the failure of these men, and I hope that this or any succeeding Government will take every care that Queensland is given a chance before they go outside, and I believe they will find really good mgn, I will read the letter to which I was referring. This gentleman talks pretty strongly. He says-

Dr. :M:axwAll is a man whom no convention will bind, with whom no pledge is sacred ; one ·who makes pro~ mises but to serve th0 ends of the present moment-to lull his victims into fancied security-quite regardle.;;s of the futnre miseries his bl"1ken pledges may cause; one who is utterly de,td to tlw softer 1:;entiments of humanity, and has h1s own welfare alone at heart. lie appears to be aboYe all hnv, and professes th0 greatc<.;t contempt for parliamentar~· criticism, for has 118 not boasted that the Premie1~ or Qneensland has told him that, so long a~.; he has his confidence, hP- ne~, 1 pay no att~ntion to the eritic;:nns of members of ParlhLi11ent.

The Premier told me the other night that that was perfectly correct, and that was the position he had taken up all through. He encourages this man in his boa,tful attitude. I used a term which the Speaker made me withdraw, but it was a very proper expression, becausJ they are simply supporting a Government which is doincr this sort of thing. ~

Mr. TURXER : How much property does that sugar-owner own himself?

l\:Ir. CAMPBELL: I do not know anything about the man's property. The letter explains something about the position of the growers in the mill later on. \Vait till you get it-

Is it any wonder, then, that a number of farmers whom our Labour members will, at election times, call the bone and sinew of the country, have been afraid to attack this man in his piratic-tl attacks on thdr pro­perty when the elected representati'ies of the State are afraid to do ~o?

That is the way to talk to him. (Laughter.) ""''"as it the repre~entat.ive of Bowen he boasts of

having ordered out of his office when the latter came to him, a public servant, on the busine::;s of consti­tuents?

:\fr. KE:>C'iA : Me? (Laughter.) He is entirely wrong there.

1fr. CA~1PBELL-Did he not ignore the Public Sen·t-<e Board in hi~

recent trip to 'Frisco? He went away without leave, and did not retnrn even when a cable \Vas sent after him to Fiji, recalling him at the instance of the J.Iinis­tcr for Agriculture?

rrhis man is not a servant of t,he State-he js Hs autocrat.

If a commission were appointe(l to-morrow to review his work there would, we think, be exposed the greatest fraud of a "systt:m" that m er cnrseil f:iod's earth. \V"e shall now proceed to show, from Dr. }lax well's own writings and speechc~ how iniquitous is the conr~c he has taken in <'Onnection with the Gin Gin mill. On the 15th June, 1901, Dr . .Jfaxwell, a(ldres.sing the directors of the Gin Gin mill, spoke as follmvs :--

"He might tell th0m that the Government were very much troublr~d at the condition or the central mills, and iF the Treasurer were to ask him t0 foreclose to­morrow on Gin Gin, he could show good reasons for not doing so. Tt csystem gave mills a new lease of life, and if they could not see their way through in 1ive years he would not be in favour of one partner taking all the losses. He should advise the G1vernment that his line of action would be for the Government to take the mill and the growers the land He would draw his pen through any attempt at foreclosure and it would not be done. H would be the rnost scandalous course ever pursued.''

Those are Dr. Maxwell's own words. That is stronger language than I used myself.

:\fr. J. LEAHY: Out of his own mouth you convict him.

Mr. CAMPBELL: Yes, Iconvicthimont of his own mouth-

In a cil'cular <14-11-04), issued to the Gin Gin cane­growers, Dr. :\I •xwell sta.tes that, "The Treasurer in­tends to give Gin Gin mill a full opportunity a~d reason­able length of time to show that it can exist, reoover

[Mr. Campbell.

its financial position, and pay its way. If after several years of trial this should not be found possible, then the situation will have to be reconsidered."

The gist of the statements made by Dr. Maxwell is that if the mill fails to pay then we will come. to some other arrangement.

Hon. R. PHILP : After several years. Mr. CAMPBELL : In some cases the mills

are paid off, and here comes the action of the Treasurer. \Vhat possible explanation is there? How can the Government justify a man who says this one time and next day he talks the other way?

Mr. J. LEAHY: It is a Labour Government. Mr. LESINA: How is it the mills are paying? Mr. CAMPBELL: I want every hon. member

to listen dispas,ionately to this, bec<me it is absolutely trne, and can be veri6ed in every particular-

We shall now proceed to give a brief history of Gin Gin mill and its operations, and when we have fini~hed we think that the public will agree with Dr. :\laxwell that the action of the LabOJll' Government in foreclosing on Gin Gin mill is " the most scandalous course ever pur­sued/' Like some other central mills, Gin Gin com­menced erusbing- operations before it had secnrcd a sufficient supply of cane to make it~ \York profitable, and put throngb its rollers only ~~bout 22,0:10 tons of cane in the first t\YOyears of its existenee (1806 anU 189i), and, it is scarcely needful to say, at a tos:;. It dtd not pamper its growers either as far as price was conccrneU, as the avm·ageprice paid direct to the grower was 6·7 shillings per ton, the price nt tl: e rollers, including cost of haulage, bejng only S·G5 shillings per ton.

Portion of the lossc"' incurred in the first two seasons was dne to the faf't that the evaporating part of the plant \V a~ inadrquate; while the crushing portion of the plant was about equal to the reqniremm1Ls of the dis­trict. the evaporqting pOl'lion was much below it. Steps had to be taken to remedy this, of which more anon.

Then followed two )·ears of plcnty-1808, »ith ·~0,507 tons of cane, and 1899, with 33,a5-.t tons; and tlJe prices paid-8'16 and 9·6 shillings ller ton re.;;pectivcly-show tbat the company kept its obligations to the Treasury in vlew.

In I £)(10, thA drought having set in reduced the crop to 18,956 tons, which \Vas a serious reduction. But worse rcmair<ed behind, as owing to the disastrous drought there was no crushing tn 1901. In 1902 there were 2,192 tons of cane crushed. The following- year (HH 3) the mill did not turn a wheel, as owing to the rm ages of the dronght the cane areas were reduced from some 2,300 acres to 460 acres, and the cane on the area that the droug-ht had :-:.pared was such as would not have paifl the cost ot" takmg off.

I need not paint to the public the privations and hardsllips which the Gin Gin canegrmv~_,rs endured during the:-;e four years of famine. Queen:-landers are but too \Ydl ncrtuainted wtth the refl-ults of the drought. £2n,ono woulct. not cover their lo5,e..;;, and one would h:L\-e thought that what they had undergone during these years of famine would have deprived them of all heart. But, no; at the partial breHk-up of the drought in 1H03 thry sd to work with n will and a determina­tion, wh;ch earned eyen the admiration of Dr. }lax well,. to repair the ravages which the drought had made, and by the end of 190:3 they had planted 1,2:35 acres of cane for the 190! crushing.

It can be well understood that the mill directorate, composed of farmers Uke themselves and sufferers with them, could not assist thfl growers financially, and some a-ssistance was much needed.

In th1s extremity they approAched 3Ir. John Yr"hite, of Bundaberg, who. with another gentleman deeply interest-ed in the welfare of the central mills, placed the position before the Hon. R. Phi1p; and the latter, with that ready sympatby which he has always shown for the farmers ot the St:tte, at once arranged with the Queensland Sational Rank to grant Giu Gin a loan of £2,000, payable in three years.

Dr. :\Jaxwell visited G!n Gin some days later, and the financial position was aJso placed before him, and he afterwards claimed the credit of having secured the loan. This i• where the cleverness of this individual COlllBS in.

Mr. BowMAN: You admit he is clever. Mr. CAMPBELL : Oh, yes, he is clever in

some wayR. That is the man who is clever enough to outwit the Treasurer.

Supply. [11 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 683

11r. NIELSON : '\Vhich Trea~urer? J'.Ir. CAMPBELL: The Treasurer of this

House. Mr. NrELSON: I thought you meant the pre­

vionR Treasurer.

:'.Ir. CAC\IPBRLL: No, the present Premier, who is backing the doctor neck and crop in

everything, and cannot say too [8 p.m.J much for him. Then it goes on­

and I would like hrm. members to listen to this, as it is a serious matter-

At his next visit he placed the matter before the directors in such a light, and so played upon their gratitude, that he got them to write a letter to the Press, stating that to him alone was due tbe gratitude of the Gin Gin farmers, and that the loan had not been obtainecl through any political influence.

This man absolutely took it away from the people, rtnd then declared that he was the in­dividual who deserved all the credit.

As previously stated, after the first year's crushing it was found that the evaporating portion of t!le plant was inadeqnte, and on the advice of the Government engineer, steps 1vere taken to bring it on a levtl with the crushing plant, and between additions to the mill plant and tramway extensions, which were absolutely necessary, the sum of £13,684 was expended out of the profits.

Practically, all this work was done with the a.pprova.l of the Government, and the last adclitions made, in­cluding a b2cond vacuum pan, received the hearty approval of the late )Jr. Chatmray, who then adminis­tered the Su<:;"ar \Vorks Guarantee Act

In addition to the amount stated above, £6.914 was paid in Government interest, and when we point out that t.his amount of over £20,000 was paid out of the profits of two years' crushing. \Ye think that if the mill bad been given ''a full oppm:tunity and reasonable length of time," ab promised, .there \vonld have been but little chance of its not recovering its financial position.

Had it not been necesRary to expend about £14,000 out of profits in mill additions, that nmount would have notably reduced the indebtedness to the Government.

It really increased the security of the mill as the mill increased in value. Then the writer g~e'i on-

Dr. 3-Iaxwell fully recognised that the financiallJOsi­tion of Gin Gin mill was due entirely to adverse climatic conditions, as in his report yublished in the Cow·ier 21th ::\Iarct, 1901,, he says, "The differences between seasons of good rainfall and sea::wns of drouo·ht have caused differences in the crops ranging from 40~000 tons down to actually nothing. The last three seasons have been years uf extreme drOught. nevertheless it has to be understood that the clim~ttic conllitions have been throughont the first and main fHctors in determining the small earning power of the mill."

That is ,.bsolutely correct. If the gentleman was as honest as that in e.verything he said then we could admire him. How he can justify what he says now in the face of what he said then I cannot understand.

In another portion of the snne report he states tlu1t "The board or directors have furnished ample eviclence of eari1P~Jt and honourable intentions in the control of the business of the company. Jn those years when the crolJ was more nearly adequate to the crushing capacity, and the mill was enabled to increase its earninrrs the interest account was promptly and notably redl~Cecl. . . . . Also the pl'ice paid for cane during the period of six years indicates that the directo:ta.te has kept the obligations of the company to the State r_rreasurer in view, and that the IJrOtits in good years have not gone to the canegrO\\ ers.

In the light of these utterances the only conclusion we can come to is that Dr. :i\Iaxwell has misinformed the Cabinet, as it is impossible to think that ~my Government profess:ing democratic principles would have taken the action it ha~ had it been informed of the fnll facts of the case.

On the 9th November, 1901, Dr. :liaxwel! took posses­sion of Gin Gin mill, sRying that "It was absolutely necessary that the Comptroller shonlcl have the manage­ment in his hands. The 'l'reasnrer has now taken possession, and from that date the board of directors ceased to exist and the articles of associathn were abrogated."

Surelf t·ul::, it-~ tlle langu.agt'l of an autocrat. "nOt o£ the servant of a. democratic Cabinet. It is language suited to an Emperor of RusHia, or a Sultan of Turk£y, but not to such a good democrat as Dr. 31axwe1l.

In the Dail!! Jliail of 11th Jnne. 1906, Dr. Maxwell made a statement to the e1I'e..clt that "In the case of central mills in the possession of the State Treasurer, they were taken over by the Comptroller in a wret~hed -in fact. in an insolvent financial state." How utterly untrue this statement is your n ~ders will t-:.ce at a glance when we state that when the Comptroller took possession of Gin Gin mill there was an amount of £4,405 to the company's credit in the J~ftllk of Xcw South \Vales. and. notwithstanding the company being in credit for such an amount.. Dr. }faxwell took the dishonourable couri'e of having a. few of the company's outstanding cheques dishonoured. There were only a few out; but, no doubt, H served the Comptroller's purpose. It would give the public the irlea that the mill was" in an insolvent state." In addition to the amount in the bank there Wij,S a further sum of £5,302 payable as bonus on sugar by the Colonial Sugar Refining Company, \vhich the Comptroller received in three instalmeuts in January, ::.\l(arch, and June, 1905, making a total of t:9,707. 'l,here were book deUts, all good, amounting to about £500 in ronnel r,umbers, which no doubt has reached the Comptroller's hands by this date. Outside what was due to the Govern­ment tbere 'VH.S an amount ofabout£2,000 clue to other creditors, and of this amount about £1.800 was due to the Queen~land :Xational Bank. and as there was three years in which to p:ty that -amount there was no absolute necessity that it should have been paid at once. But allowing that it !<hould, if the amount be added to the £2.5no \vhich the Comptroller paid the 'rreHsm·er on the 30th June, 1905, Dr. 1\iaxwt>ll had still £5,207 to fritter away, as he has done on schemes which woulcl not. stand tht: test of law could they be brought into court. Yet the Comptroller states that he has been heavily handicapped for'' ant of funds.

That is a regular statement of his ; more of his absolute humbug. Then he goes on-in C•mnec­tion with the expenditure of central mill trust funds-

\Ye have beard that some of the expenditures autho­rised by Dr. :1:Iax,vell have placed the 'l'reasurer in a very awlnvard position, and no doubt the foreclmmre on the mills is the first step to get clear of this a wk .. ward position, as the Comptroller is \Vtll aware that it is impossible for the farmer.:.; to take their cnse into court, and by foreclosing all attempts at fut nre inquiry will probably be bnrked.

Of the £11,707 ~\ hich the Comptroller took possession of at Gin Gin not one C'Jnt could be credited to his con­troL and this can be proved in any court of inquiry. That amount \V:ts made not bl'eause of, but in spite of, Dr. :.\Ia,:wcll't:> control. Though nominally a partner, not once durmg the ~eason did the Comptroller give either advice or assistance.

That is pretty strong for a man who was going to show, by analyees of soils, how the farmer could grow 2ii t•ms of cane to the acre iuste:<d of 15 tons. 'fhat is what he was brought here to do, but he has signally failed to do iL It goes on-

The Trea~urer speaks of Dr. :Maxwell's business capacity. \Yhy, it is only that of a bnc.·aneer-toseize by fm•c,~ on the wealth mn.de b.v other hands and other brains, as it will be found. on inquiry that nearl\' every mill be seized was well in funds. The busincs~ capae.ity displayed by the llurean of Centi al Sugar l\lills is just the business capaeity that has been pnt into it by the Government auditor, a gentleman wh1lse knowledge of central mill finanr-0s has been of inestimable, though unacknowledged, benefit to the comptroller, and \vith­out who~e assistance Dr. :.\lax well wnuld, we think, be hopelessly stranded in his financial statements.

VVe could write at length on tlle so-callerl system of "cliemicRl'' control, and every day f1·esh instances of the sham it is come to our notiee.

Even with the experience ol the previous year to help them, only two of the mills under Dr. ::.\Iaxwel1's con­trol sent in correct chemical retnrns last year, nnd one mill sent in 110 returns, and in connection with this there are some peculiar features.

Dr. 3Iaxwell has a control1ing voice in the mill referred to, and sent up a " l'hemist" there la~t year~ The" ehemist" in question received ten days' training ln the Bundaberg laboratory, and when he arrived Ht the seat of his work his li:nowleclge was so limited that he could not distinguish mixed juice from normal juice.

Mr. Oampbell.]

684 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl;l/·

Mr. NrELSON : That is ab~olutely wrong, as th"t chemi"t has just gone to tHke up a position in one of tht-- n1i ls in Fiji.

Mr. CAMPBELL : It says here: "The chemist c~,uiO not distinguish mixed juice from normal juice" (page 8). That is ptetty damaging evid~ncP.

Mr. NmLSOX : It is not evidence at all. H is an uncqrrol,orated staten1ent. \Vho is your authority?

Mr. J. LEAHY : It is Letter than evidence. It id a fi:lcr.

Mr. CA:I-1PBELL: Let the hon. gentleman prove that it is not true.

Mr. NIELSON: I can prove th,tt. The person referred t<> has hncl f •r more ex]Jerience than the person men·ionecl there.

Mr. CAMP BELL: The letter ~Toe' on­Neither conld. he make head or tail of the weeklv

chemical repqrts on which the Comptroller Jays !,;U ~h stres:.., ancl il• nee none 'vere sent in. \ow. if Dr. J\iax;,·,ell had tile welfare ot t11e mill at heart he wnuld never have made such an appointnwnt. It is a well­known fact that he is enger and an xi nu:; to obtain the absolute eontrol of thh mill. Indeed. so certain \vas he that the director~ \Yonld not be able to fulfil all the cast-iron conditlons of the agreement which he lmposed upnn th(-:rn ~ome time back Umt be had, we ha Ye heard, actually nominated ).lr. ~fartin, of Banplr for the po~i­tion of manngf'r, but the ''best lftid schemes o' mice and men g-ang afr agley,'·' and this mill stUl manage.;;: its own affairs With some hindrance from Dr. MaxwelL

We have written nt some length on Dr. 3!axwell's control, and we have reason to know, from cases which have eo me to onr notice, at considerable risk to our­selve~. as shonld Dr. )iaxwell di,..,cover the identity of the writer of these articles he would oursue him with the utuwst malknity and, a~ he is a c·H1egrower, to his ·utter ruin; we llave bCl'll compelle<i. to speak in plain tm·ms of the svstem and its otlicers, but we can cun­scielltiously sa3· that we have not put down ang-ht in malice anll that !lOthing h:-~B been OYerdrawn In fact, we have scarceiy done ju~tice to the materials at onr ser­vice, but we hope we have done enough to show the neces~il.v of an inqniry into all the phases of Dr. J.!ax­well's absolute control of central mills.

I have several other letters here, but I will not detain the Hono'; by reading them. I want to say, in conn<lction with Lhe address that Dr. :iVIaxwell delivered to the conference of mill­manage;·s in Brisbane, which took the form of a firot-cla<s cl ampagne dinner, that it was paid for presumalJly by Dr. l\Iaxwell, l.Jut possibly out of the truRt funds < f the Sugar Bureau. I want. tn get these details. I lmve every reason to tl,ink that he clHl not foot the l.Jill him,elf, alt h· •ngh be is a highly salaried o!licer and is well able tu do so.

l\Ir. KE:>:o;A: He conlcl put it down to travel­ling ex pen-e-.

Mr. CA:VIPBELL : At that particular ftmc­tion :Mr. Brl\nnich was condemned in Yery grave termo.

Mr. PAGEl': Mr. Bri.\nnich is a very good man.

::Vlr. C~\:VlPBELL: I am of the opinion that Thfr. Brhm:ich is a superior n1an in }_Joint of ability to Dr. l\hxwell, ;end this House should .see th:.tt ju~tice is done to an unfortunate tnan who has been conrlemned unlie ;rd. That is not British j nstice. He should bE' given a chance to be heard ill his defence. The Hntb3 would not be doing it" clnty to this man, who h"s been in a trusted position all along- connected with the Af;ricultnral Department, if an opportunit.y is not afforded him t<l state his side of the case. ,Just because he W•mlcl not be a wiliing tool in the hands nf Dr. Maxwell, "vValker" was his n"nw. I trust that the leader of the Gu1·ernment will see that a detailed account of the expenses of the control of the Sugn.r Bnrean are laid on the table of the House, so that members can see how the funds of the bureau have been dealt with. It will be interesting, and if there is nothing in the statement and nothing to fear then there will be

[Jfr. Campbell.

no harm done. On the other band, the represen­tatives of this House, as the representatives of the whole of Qneemland, have a right to know all that is going on. I have said sufficient to­night-and read sufficient also-to show that there is no justification for the position the Go­vern n1en t are asf'n ming in this connection.

Mr. PAGET: \Vhere there is secrecy, there is roorn for ~uspicion.

Mr. CA:\1PBELL: Yes. This star chamber bnsino:...ss i~ a thing thi ... Go\ernment Rhould steer clear of if they wi,h to follow the principle' they profess. I think I have s .id sufficient to s!tow that there is room for inquiry wiLh the view of relieving Dr. Max well of charge of the Sugar Bureau. I shall not take up any more of the time of the C •mmittee now, as I know there are other hnn. mt•mbers who wish to speak. I hope th <t the rerr,arks which I have rna •e, and which I have nw.de in all since1ity, \vill recc~iYe con~ sideration at the hands of the Government. I have taken the trouble to gn into this matter carefully, because I consider that a lot of very estimable peo]Jle in Queensland who have inter­ested them"elves in the inauguration of central mills st>tncl in a very bad positinn.

l\I r. LAND (Balonne) : I desire to say a few words before tbis qne,tion is put to the Com­mittee. First. of all, I should like to express my regret that the Premier, on account of illness, is unable to be in his place in the Hou.e. I hope that before long he will be able to be among us ag·,in. I do not in tend to speak at any great length, l.Jut I should like to refer to a few ques­tions which more particularly affect the people of the d1strict I represent. I notice that during last year we received only £237,000 from ]Jastoral tenilnts, while we rPceived frtl!ll grazing farmers £UJ3.Gb2. Our total land revenue last year was £558,!)46. I think the time has arrived when every member of this House should take the matter of pastoral revenue into consideration. In the country, some peo]Jle blame the Land Court, <ome bhme the GO\·ernment, and some blame the 1\iinister for Lands for c,ortain matters in connecsion with our land administration. Before this de hate is closed I should like the l\linister to make one ]JOint particularly clear, and that is the point with reference to the issuing of frr-,h lease-; and the giving of long tenures at low rent·1l<. I think the general opinion is that the hsuing of fresh leases is clue to the :Minister for Lnnds. At any rate, that is the opinion of a great many people. I do not think there is a cli;,trict in Queensland which suffers more than the district I represent, from the isme of fresh leases on long· terms at low rentals.

The SECI\ETARY FOil Pt:BLIO LANDS: Do you n1ean rc~,,.,wals?

Mr. LAND : Yes ; the renewal of the old leases.

The SECI\ETARY POR Pt:Bf,IC LANDS : I have absolutely nothing to do with that.

1\Ir. LAND : I shonlcllike the hon. gmtleman to make that clear himself. There is one com­pany which has about 2,000,000 acres of land cl<'se to St. George~ Jt is not all leasehold­some of it is ]Jnrchasecl land, but the largest qtnntity is leasehold-and that land has been held for a very lnng time, and it has not been used to any wiry great extent. Consequently it has bPcome overrun with rabbits to a consider­able extent, and it is most certainly overrun with prickly ]war. \Vhen the leases of some of those lands were renewed just lately, the great argument used in favour of getting the land at a low rental was the fact of its being overrun with rabbits and prickly pear. A large number of those leaseholds are rated for the first period four or five times lowbr than similar land held by grazing farmers is rated. The argument

Supply. [11 SEPTEMBER.] Suppl,y. 685

advanced in many instances is that the grazing farmer has got the pick of the bnd. That is not so. I can U>·~Ure you from n1y O\Vll expPrience that the grazing farmer, as a rnle, ha, hnd which is below the average on every leasehold. B' ery resumption is below the average of the leasehold. The land that many a selector is holdi,,g is entirely dry, and the very fact that land b dry is sufficient proof that it is below the a vemge. Yet, notwith"tanding the fact that the grazing selector is bound by the conditions to spend a large amount of money on hi, holding, and that the p tstoral lessee is bound by no such c nditions, it will be found that the rents for pastoral leases to-day are, in many instances, less than they were twen•y years ago, although we have "pent hundreds of thousands of poun(h running rail­ways into those di,;tricts. I nH1intain that theru are many leases renewed to-day which should not be renewed, because thert> are any amount of intending selectnr,;, nnt altogether in Queens­land, but along the South-we-stern border of the State, who are anxious to take up land.

Mr. J. LEAHY: You have thou8ands of square mile< of land that nobody will take up.

Mr. LAND : Y <'S; I arlmit thD.t there is any quantity of<' mntry in the South-western part of the State that has not been taken np, and 1 wonld here remark that this i::lontb-western laud is just as good after the rainfall as it was bef.,re a drought. 'rhere is a good deal of that land which is unavailable.

Mr. J. LEAHY : It is available, but not taken up.

Mr. LAND: It is available in some respects, but not in others. I think the Gmernrnent should con"ider this matter, and above all things consider seriou,ly before they renew leases in districts whE·re we have railways, and whPre grazing farmers can make a good living. The holding of "' large area of land in the district of St. George by the Cdmpany to which I have referred has practical!y kept that ]Jart of the country back, for had it not been for that land monopoly there is no doubt that we should have had a railwav to St. George before now. Anr,ther thing I should like to refer to is the matter of water conseryation. \Ve build railways inland and into the \Vestern country, bnt do not t ,ke into consideration the neceil,itv that exists for conserving water. All over the\Ves'ern country artceian water can be found, and there are any amount of creeks and rivers which are in fl<~od once a year anyhow, and if those streams were d<trnrned a permaneno water supply would be provided. During the hot summer months there are lonr; stages without water, and plenty of the \Yestern stations which are stockerl in a good sea,on are practically cut off after about six months of dry weather. I should like the Minister f<lr Lands to tal<e the q UE'tion of water conservation into his consideration. There are la.rge quantities of land available in the \Vestern country, and not an inch is taken up for the simple reason that it i~ dry country. If a few thousands of pounds were S!Jent in sinking wells or putting down bores at snitabb places, large areas of country would he made available, and people would settle upon them. Once a few people settled down on th'lse lande, others would follow when they know that water is prr>curable. The hon. member for Bulimba made reference the other night to a paragraph in the report of the 1J nder Secretary for I,and,, and implied that it was a reflection on the members of the Land Court. I do not for one moment think that :\lr. Scott referred to the member" of the Land Court personally, but believe that he was referring to the system, and I qnite agrre with his remarks.

The SECRETARY FoR PUBLIC LANDS : He referred to their position.

Mr. LAND : Exactly so.

Mr. J. LEAHY: \Vhat has Mr. Scott done that you are i< flicting an injury of this kind on him by ~ul port,lll;{ hirn ?

Mr. LAl\'D : This is a matter in which I am particularly intere-ted. The wembt·r" <•f the Land Court as at pre,ent. cons•i u ed I do not know personal:y. I h<tve spoken to only one of them in all rny life, bnt I know the1e i' some­thing wrong in the system. The rents of pas: oral. le.:-;eet-':.'l 11re kept down, while tht-> rf'nt:; of grazing farmers are alwavs rising. I bt'lieve that there should be a cla"ificat.ion of lands and an equali­sation of the rents wlw·re th~ l"nd is sirnilar.

Mr. J. LEAHY : \V8re not all the grazing fa1mers' rentR redncPd a year or two ag<~?

Mr. LA::\'D: tl.,meof them were, but n•rt all, as a.ny h()n, nlt-nlbr>rc.tn :-;et:' bv referring to thf-' rPport of the u .. der St'Cret"ry I had th" o]JI•Ol' unity of hearir1g thl'1 t1on. rnen1bPr f, ·r Budoo "barrn ... ch.ing', for the ]Jastoralists, and I car1 as,rr e l1on. mem­bers that he is a great ''barrack er" for the ]Jastoral le:;;~ee~. Then• is no man in Q11eensland who can heat the bun. member in "IJarracking" for the p •storal lessee. I heard the hon rm·rnber refer to the land commissio,pr a.s a "poin• er." r heard the hon. nwmb r tell the solici:or who appeared on behalf of the Cro ·' n to "shut up," and I heard Lim refer to the L·md Court as a c >rrrt for drunks. (L •Ughter.) I do 1>0> thi1>k that a man holding the position of tl.e hon. member f <r Builno should be allowed to ap1•ear bef,>re the Land Court, became his position may have some influence wi< h them.

Mr. J. LEAHY : It is not true what the hon. nlembt-r :-sa vs.

;\Ir. LA:'\ D : It is quite true, or I should not say it here.

Mr .• T. LEAIIY: It is only partly true. Mr. LAJ'\D: No, it is not partly true; it is

wh ·lly true. Mr. J. LEAIIY: I won the cases anyhow,

didn't I? Mr. LAND: There is no douht about that,

and I think that if hon. rnembt-rs heard the arr;uments advanced by the hon. member they would amend the Act. A very strong p11int was 1nade by the hon. n1ember of the prnvitdon in the Act referring to unimproved value, and he took the cDurt back to the days of the blacks, main­t&ining that it was the law that the unim­proved value was the value of the hnd in those days.

J\Ir. J. LEAHY: I did not lose any points like the Secretary for Lands.

;\Ir. LA::\i): While on thie question, I would like to mention that, at almost ever;1 Land Court;

held in the Roma district, the ques­[8.30 p.m.] tion of prickly pdtr infe,ted country

is raised, and a clairn made for re­duc~d renLs in consequt-n('?. I know there is a great quantity of infesced country which it would not be possible to clear. 'rhc land w<>uld not be wnrth it, but I tmderotand that the :\Iinister has taken steps to define the infe<ted ar,a. The great qneotion is to keep the land clean which is clean now, so that the pest may no\ further spread. \Vith reference to the railway question, I am glad that the revenue has increased, and I hope the illinistcr will now give some attention tn the people living far away from the centres of pcpulation. I notice that those who live in closely settled districts get the best of every­thing. They get clwaper fares and freights, and I would like tue Minister to take a trip on the line himself, not in a special train as Ministers usually traYel, but just as the public travel. I atn sure he would CiJrne to the conclm;ion that the people in these far-away localities deser1·e some consideration. At th0 present time a conceRsion is made on 4-ton truck loads, and I would urge upon him the justice of giving a proportionate reduction for smaller quantities

Mr. Land.]

686 Snpply. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl_y.

in cases where people are not able to supply 4 tons. During the last two or three years I notice better accommodation has been provided; but there is still room for great improvement. I have been informed that there are lengthsmen on the line doing the same work who are g·etting different pay, and that gangers who should have had their rise after being promoted, have not received it. Another matter brought under my notice is that lad porters up to the age of twenty­two are 1·eceiving 4s. 2d. a day. I think all these are matters which the Minister might well pay attention to. I am sure that 4<. 2rl. a day for lad porters of twenty-two in the \Vestern country is miserable enough pay for anything. I should now like to say a few worJ«, before con­cluding, upon the rabbit question. \Vben I first came to Brisbane, I brought this matter under the Miniscer's notice, and I have not seen any alteration for the better. Mr. Scott, the 1J nder Secretary, says in reference to this question-

It is a difficult matter to make a near approximation of the cost of the mea.sures taken agJtinst the rabbit pest in Queensland. The expenditure by the Govern­ment and tlle boards is known, but an estimate eau only be made of the private outlay in fences, and the :private d{~struction work offer~ no data on whieh an estimate can be based. The figures in the following statement are exact \Vith the one exception of the extra cost of making private fences rabbit proof-

Cost of 0, overnment border fences Loans to boards ... Xetting supplied to boards Assessments on rnnholdcrs ... Interest paid by runholders (on netting

to the value of £108,912 18s. 4d., supplied by the Government) and paid over by the Government to the boards

Central board expenditure Salaries of Government inspectors Cost of private rabbit-proof fences over

and above their cost as ordinary fences (estimated)

£ 139,872 46,520

168,852 453,630

33,416 107,648 13,882

341,890

£1,305,7±0 The estimated length of all fences at the end of the year was-

GoYernment border fences Board fences . .. . .. Pastoral lessees' fences (estimated) Grazing selectors' fences (estimated)

~Iiles.

733 5,442.1· 7,825 1,850

15,849i

In the first instance the rabbit fences were put up as a check upon the incursion of rabbits, and the netting used was 1~-inch mesh. By the time that netting was erected it was discovered that the smaller rabbits could easily get through it. It did not matter whether a lot got through or not, they soon hrrd in sufficient numbers to snpply all Queensland. Therefore I say that the money spent was wasted. There i; no doubt that the fences were a check on the spread of rabbits for a time, because the large ones could not get through, but the fence only served to fence the rabbits in on to pE>ople on the lower side. In spite Of all the money that has bAen spent, there is no doubt that in time the rabbits will spread all over Queensland. I do not look upon them as a curse or a pest at all. On the other hand, I believe they will prove a benefio to Queensland, because there are a class of people who will destroy the rabbits for their skins and carcasse; if they get an opportunity. There is no doubt that, all along the railway line in Queensland which the rabbits reach, they can catch them and send them down, and they can be exported. How is it they are exported from other countries, and hundreds of thousands of pounds are attained from the ~ale of rabbits ? I read an article a short time ago, which stated that the price of rabbit skim went np to 1s. 1~d.,

[Jir.Land.

and it takes eight or nine full-grown skins to weigh 1lb. I maintain that the p resent system should be abolished, the poison carts called in, and the e> penditure st•,rped. 1'he Central Rabbit Board cost about £5,000 more last year. Any man with nny experience will know that under this system a man that is paid must work and earn oomething. You cannot afford to pay men to drive about-inspectors or anyone else. If you pay a man he will ha~e to giYe some return. There are too many cha1rmen, tno 1nany inspectors, and too much hoard authority. \Vhere does the workman come in? He is perched on a poison c.1rt in the Barcoo at £5 a month, and has to pay 2s. 6d. to g,t his cheque cashed. The large pastoral le,see got an extension of time to rabbit net, and exemp­tion from rabbit tax, yet he never kept his fence in order, in ninety-nine cases uut of a hundred. The fences nearly all run from east to west, and the watercourses from north to south, and the storms come and the water rushes through, and it remains like that for months. I have seen this with my own eyes for years; it has been reported times cut of number, and it is a well-known fact that these fences have been neglected. There are Government rabbit board inspectors, and also Crown land rangers, who are understood to report, but I can assure you that the whole thing has been a farce and a failure. It is an extravagant system, and I maintain that a lot of people have been robbed of their money. I have always advocated giving the wire netting to pastoral lessees so long as they wire-net, and I favour it still; but if the 5 per cent. has to be paid by the pastoral les3ee to the board as interest and redemption on capital account, I am not in favour of it one more day. \Vhy should the Government borrow money at 4 per cent. to buy wire netting, carry it on the railways, total up the whule cost, and hand it over to a lessee, and he pay 5 per cent. to a board to squander that money?

Mr. J. LEAHY: Should not the Government protect its own property?

Mr. LAND: I think the system is robbery. I consider the local man who pays the assess­ment is rubbed, becau8e he does not get value; he cannot possibly get value. The c'trts cannot possibly give value at all. The hon. member for \Varrego, speaking on one occasion, said one cart to 500 miles. He was arguing in favour of increasing the t.umber of carts, as the number employed was not sufficient to do the work. ·That is quite right. The number employed, and that have been employed, is no use at all ; but if you put on more carts, where are you going to get the money? If you have had no return from the £1,000,000 spent, what is the use of going on and spending another £350,000 when the whole of it is wasted? I can assure you that the selectors, the grazing farmers, and the squatters themselves condemn the system altogether. I know a manager of a station who was the chairman of one of the rabbit boards for six years, and he told me that all hough he was chairman he never believed in the system, because he could see it was no good, but he was always outvoted on the board. I would suggest that the Minister, instead of perpetuating the present system, should give the wire netting to lessees who apply for it and are prepared to erect it. I am perfectly sure that selectors and les'Jees on larger holdings wili fence still, and will rely upon themselves to destroy the rabbits; but if the present Act is altered so that everyone in Queensland can catch and kill rabbits and do what they like wiLh them, men will come over the New South \Vales border. 'fhey are coming over now, but they have to sneak over. \Ve have been paying £1 5s. a week and tucker to men to clear the traps on the fences, while these men on the other side, I

Supply. [11 SEPTEMBER.] Suppl;7j. 687

understand, were quite willing to clear the traps for the sake of the skins. If this system is changed the selectors will keep the rabbits down then1selves, and in cases of reserves sorne con­sideration can be given to adjoining owners to keep them cleD,r. The hon. member for Bulloo said thac some of the unoccupied country was not worth taking up, but if it is not worth taking up it won't breed many rabbits.

Mr .• J. LEAHY: No; I D,Sked you why it w:1s not Ltken up.

Mr. LA:i\'D: You kn0w better than I do why it was not taken up.

Mr . • T. LEAHY: l think so. (Laughter.) Mr. KERI\: He pulls the strings. Mr. LAND: Some of this country is rednced

to 5;, a mile. If the country not taken up is not worth 5s. a mile, that is not the reason why it is not taken up-there are other reasons besides that. In some instances there are ct'nditions attached to the lease which prevent it being taken up.

1'he SECRE'rARY FOR PGBLIO LANDS : It will be let ag-ain when stock get more numerous.

1\Ir. LAND: The hon. member for Bulloo is paying twenty odd time• less rent than surne of the runholders have to pay in the district I am in. Now, there is not twenty times difference in the carrying capacity of that country. I know some selectors of 20,000-acre blocks have got wire netting in the past and are getting it now, and they are satisfied that the only course open to them is to do that and keep the rabbits down themselves. They will then be relieved from rabbit taxation. I would like to draw the attention of the Hon. the i\linister to the fact that it is not necessary -for him to make stringent conditions in r< gard to fencing. lf a selector is satisfied that a three­wira fence with rabbit netting >tttached is suf!i. cient to enable him to keep the rabbits down, why should he be compelled to erect a six· wire fence with rabbit netting attached? I do not !:'efer to a dropper fence at all. The posts are now 12 feet apart with six wires and netting attached to them. That might be altered so as to permit of 15·feet panels. A selector or any other lessee is not likely to spend from £() to £9 a mile from the time he gets the wire from the rail way station until it is erected, unless he believes it is going to do good service. The intention is to keep the rabbits down. They do not believe they can get rid of them altogether on a 20, ooo.acre block, but they do believe they can keep them down to such an extent that they will do no injury to the holding. In reference to abolishing the boards and introducing a new system, there is very little to be done. All that is necessary is to enable leosees and selectors to depend on their own resources. If four or five selectors of 20,000 acres think it better to form their holdings into a group and fence the whole area instead of fencing each selection separately, that should be sufficient, as they will not incur the expense of fencing unless they believe it will do some good.

Mr. LESIN A: The hon. member for l\foreton pointed out one or two things when speaking ahout Dr. Maxwell with which I entirely agree. Dr. l\faxwell for some years past has not only been a bugbe~r to a large number of persons interested in the sugar industry, but to a large number of people who are not interested in that industry he is a person of more than passing interest. The history of that gentleman is one of those things that should certainly claim the consideration of hon. members. Only a few years ago the majority of members now sitting peacefully and happily on this side of the Chamber sat on the other side, and they con­demned Dr. Maxwell's appointment in un­measured terms. It was described as a political job of the worst description, and we poured out

the vials of our wrath upon the head of the leader of the Opposition, who then Sflt on these Treasury benches. l'\o member on this side could be found to say a word in defence of the appointment of this gentleman. Smce we have come over here thRre has heen a ten­dency on the part of hon. member~, who still agree that Dr. l\Iaxwell is just as expensive a fraud a~ he was when he was first app,>inted, to refrain from criticising him. I have never abated the attitude I originally took up with respect to Dr. Maxwell. From the very com­mencement, on account of inforrnation that catne to us from the newspapers and from people con­nected with the sugar industry, I have held the opinion that he was simply an ex pensive '·white elephant" with whooe serviceo this country could 'ery welllmve dispensed. He has done nothing for the sugar-growers; he has not even visited some sugar districts, and those that he has visited he has done no good. I understand that he was originally prPpared to come to Qneensland, at the wish of some of the lf':tdi~;~g sugar-growers in the Bundaberg district, for a sum uf £800 per annum, and the right of private practice, which would have made his income £1,000 per annum. Four of the big sugar·growers in the Bundaherg dis­trict were prepared to guarantee him £800 per annum, and he insisted on the right to conduct analyses of soils for farmers in the sugar district~, which were estimated to bring him in another £200 a year. The negotiations were about to be brought to a head, when the sugar-growers in the Mackay district heard something of the matter, and they wanted to secure his services for a third of the time, and they guaranteed to pay one-third of his salary. He was just about to come out on those terms when a VD,Cancy occurred in the Philp Govern­ment; another Minister representing Mackay was brought into the Cabinet, and an arrange­ment was made for the appointment of Dr. Max­well-not for the services of the sugar-growers in the Mackay and Bunclaberg districts, at £ROO a year and £200 for soil analyses-but to secure his services as a public servant at a SD,lary of £3,000 per annum. A story is told-it may be apocryphal or not-that Dr. Maxwell was wired to and asked whether he would accept the new terms of engagement and become a public ser· vant instead of a private servant, and he was asked to wire his salary. He wired that he was receiving something like 2,000 dollars a year. A mistake was made in the amount, and he was engaged at £3,000 a year. \Ve strongly con· demned the appointment. He was not here many years before the new Government came in, and then the present Treasurer, Mr. Kidston, offered-for all I know without the consent of his colleagues-to engage Dr. Maxwell for a further term of three years-five years altogether -at a sala1·y of £3,000 per annum, and between £400 and £500 per annum for travelling expenses. And not only did he do that, but he did what the previous Government did not do -placed him on a pedestal where he was free from fJarliamentary criticism. He was told per­sonally by the present Treasurer not to care what Parliament said about him-that he could rely on \Viliiam Kidston standing by him. Year after year the position is becoming more intolerable. \Ve are dissatisfied with a public servant who is getting £3,000 a year and £400 or £:100 a year travelling expenses, and only recently he left the State for three months, and, when cabled to by the Secretary for Agriculture, he declined to come back-practically browbeat. ing the Secretary for Agriculture, who is the coming Premier. It is astonishing to think of a well·paid public servant being in a position to flout Parliament. At present he has carte blanche to do exactly as he pleases for the welfare

Mr. Lesina.]

688 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

of the sug•r industry, and he does it to suit himself, and some people think he is doing it ver~' HUC<.:essfnliy. In the Treasurer's Statt>rnent there are St~tne lJaragntph..; from whicb the Tre;iRUrer apve,us to regard hitn as a prunounct'd succes<. That has bee11 disputed in this Cham­ber. He receives £3,000 a ye:<r salary and £400 or £;)u0 per annum for traveilir1g expenset:l. Tht (ioverrwr (Ill iy gets £3,500 a year, f'O

that next to th Governor Dr. Maxwell is the best paid servant of the RL&te of Queensland. Furthr-rrnore, he 11nly is rPspou~ible for the safe administr,tion uf £500,000 of public money. Mr.

Th:-dlun, the Cmnmis::,ioner fur Ra.il­[9 p.m.] ways, in whose hands is vested the

safe control and administration of over £20,000,000 of public capital, only gets £2,000. If be lias that extra an)l)unt of c pital imestment to control, then he ought to get five or ten tunes mm e than Dr. JYiaxwell.

Mr. J. LEAHY: He ought to get £120,000 at at that rate.

Mr. LESINA: Yes. We will leave that a.si<ie for the pres""llt. The present Premier and Trea~urer-tbe hPad of ttJis Government-g,~ts only £1,000 a year for running this country. He is resiJOilsible for t.hE> sqfe invp::;! ment and adndni­stration ,.f £8,000,000 or £!l,OOO,OOO, which is twPnty times JJJ(He than Dr. 1\1ax\.vdl i~ ref-lpon­sible for, yet £1,000 is supposed to be sufficient to pay the PJemier for the w .. rk which i.e has so e:.rnestly and attenti·.-ely attended to that he has broken down in health. Mr. Kidston gets £1,000 a ye-n, Dr. i\1 'xwell gets £3,000 a year, therdore Dr. l\Iax well is worl h three Kidstons. (Laughter.) Or he is worth three Minist.rs­say three JYiinisters for Lttnds. (Laughter.) \Vho won ld admit that for one moment? I know there are some unkind IJersons, without the least charity in their c Jtnposition, "ho would say that he is worth 15,000 Ministers for Lands. (Laugh­ter.) 'l hat mi'(ht be c"r' ect, and if I heard them I would say ''Hear, hear!"

Ttre CHAIRMAN: Order, order! Mr. LE8!NA: If we take three Ministers who

are looking after three department", we find that th-y Hre onlv equal to one Dr. Maxwell and one Dr. Maxwell's sabry. Stlch a position is absurd. ]\\) rnan is worth that ar11ount of 1nnney, and Dr. Max.,ellleast of all. lf he was willing to come here for £800 a y•·ar, why should he get this extra arnount? But the agreernent with hinl has already been made, and we have got to stick to him even if he turns out to be a f,,itnre or a frost.

i\Ir. J. LEAHY : If they "sack" him, like they did in the 8tockwell case, it might cost us £10.000

Mr. LESINA : This ex';ggera.ted estimate of his abilities, which has been placed upon hirn by ::\Ir. Kidston, m"kes him worth four Under Secretaries of our Governwent de1,artrr1ent.-::, men who have had abDnt twenty-five years' experi­ence each-men who are >tlmost irreplaceable. Sai that these four men get £750 each-they do not get that much, but even suppose they did, then Dr. i\laxwell is worth four of them. Doe8 anyone believe that the Treasurer was so anxious for the welfare of this State that he deliberately gave that man an extra term of service at that salarv ?

M;. J. LEAHY : This House votes his salary yearly.

Mr. L"ESIXA: This House shoulrl not vote it without ha 1•ing the fullest po,sihle information in its bands, and that is what the present Chief Secretary refnses to give. If you ask a question about Dr. l\Iaxwell, you are snub!Jnd. If you go to see the Chief Secr,•tary in his office about ]Jr. Maxwell, you are practically ordered out of his department. You must say nothing about him. \Veil, I object to that. If this is a Parliament representative of the people outside, then the

[Mr. Lesina.

people should insist that we shall stand up rtnd demand the fullest information with regard to Dr. iYiaxwell's expenditure of public moneys in the trust funds for the sugar-mills. They should strongly back us up in the attitude we take up in this matter. Dr. iYiax well has been proved to have donP nothing at all fur the ordinary su~ar farrr,er. It i' abwrd to think that you could hrinq: a man from Hawaii and dnmp him down in Queensland to teach men, who have for twenty years been gro" ing ,ugar-cane h.-re, how they should grow sugar-cane. He might he able to teach them how to Krow cane with the most expensive manures in small areas, but the ordinary canegrower ea nnot do that. These are purely academical experiments, which might be all right for those whn have plenty of money, but they are absolutely useless so far as the ordinarv farmer is concerned.

Mr. KENNA : This exrie.imental business has been conrlemned by experts.

Mr. LE::\ IN A: I really believe that Dr. Maxwell, before his term has expired, if he is not re-eng ged here, will take with him all the experience he h"s gatiJed here as the redult of his experilllentcttion at the expense of the people of Queensland, and hand over that experie .. ce to smne other big ~ugar-grower in another part of the world. That i" what we are goi"g to do for Dr. Maxwell. \Ve are going to help Dr. Max­well in his business at the expense of the sugar­growers of Qnt ensland. There is one other aspect of thi, matter to which I will refer before I leave it. I have here a copy of the Pioneer of the 28th of ,Julv, 190G. Tnere is a letter in it from JYir. C. ·G. :Ylunru, reprinted from the Prose1']!ine Guardian. It affects the subject uuder d.iSCth·Sion, and as if, contains some u~tful points, I colTlmend it to the Secretary for ~l.gri­cultnre, who will probably have something to s cy on this matter nefore the debate clos.:'l. Ttlis is what Thir. Munro s:qs-

As some people here are still in dnubt whether central millt:i \Yorked twfler the control of local boards can show bettPr results than that under (yery much so~) the Bnrean of Central \1ills, the following- figures calcnlatr<l on data in the Andit.or-General report of central mill work for the season 190-J, -the latest avail­able-speak for themselve ~-namely-

Central Jiill:; under Dr. 11lu.Ti' ell's contn 1•

8. d. Average value of sugal' ('~Ctracted per ton 24 10

ofcaue Average amount paid for cane 12 4

Cen!tal Mill conli•ollecl by their 01~ tl bow·d8. s. d.

Average value of sugar extracted pel' ton 28 6 of cane

A ve:";lge amnunt paid for cane 17 The mills under Dr. ).Iaxwell nre-Gin Gin, Jioreton,

Banple. Nerang, Pleystowe, anU. Pr(lserpine. Those cont"Olled by th(Jil' own boards arc-lsis, ;.\/[arian, :.Ho"'~mau, }lulgraYe, and Plaue Creek. Tllese data are really tno elottucnt to need any further comm8n t, and I hope they will soak into the lor<l.l pnblic mind Of course I am well Hware that the conditions nndcr whieh cane is produc!Jd here arc better now than they were d1ll'­ing tlle lirst three yenrs of the company's exbtenee. Some people use this faet as a reason why the present Go­vernment should continue to manage our affairs.. but it must be rcmemberf'i that the; difficulties an l draw­bacl{S that prevailed nv to the ye.'\r 190 ' \\TBl'C simi_lar to t.hosetlutt Plane Creek and other cc,~ntral mill companies exlJerirnced. Moreover, stu.!;ar is now higher in price by nearly £:3 10s. per ton tllan it was then, and, ftuther­more, we mu.st 110t. forget that Kids ton's price for cane i:::: 10:-:. vcr ton (d 1f! llwzr:anl! while Dr. 3-:laxwell would like to screw us clown to the same rtgnre lie pay:-:> his Sout.het·n Yictims-i.e., lls. per ton; bnt the present rate-namely, LJ.s.-is the re~ult of' the persjstent. agita­tion of the shareholders who have continna.lly pointed out to Kiclston and his p1·cdeeessors in office that the "living level" or white-grown cane is £1 per ton, and. consequently the mill price Hhould be 15s. to His. per ton so lon~ as the pre.seut bounty rate prevails. rrhe verv fact that outside central mills do bet·er work thall those under Dr. :Yiaxwell proves that this cute

Supply. [11 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 689

American gentleman is still studying-at our expense­the be~t wa;v to extract the sugar from ordinary cane crops supplied to central mills.

When Dr. M:.xwell has acquired all his experi­ence at the expense of the people here, he will go to some other end of the world and give his services at an enhanced value.

Mr. KENNA : Apply the betterment to him. Mr. LESINA: We cannot. He will become

as evasive and as abusive as Dr. Ruth, when his time comes. In connection wi~h the Financial Statement, I say that I am very pleased to see tljat the country shows such signs of flourishing, from a revenue point of view. I am not one of thoRe that believe that the juggling of tables and figures by rival Treasurers, and ambitious ama­teur Treasurers, is a thing of joy and a beauty for ever. ·while it is satisfactory to know that our revenue is on the up grade, and that our ex­penditure has been kept down without making the poor poorer, and without pinchmg and scrapini! in a penurious way, it is perhaps wise and perhaps right also to congratulate each other upon such a condition of affaire. In looking through the Treasurer's Financial Statement one thing struck me which I think might have better been left out, and that is the reference to federation. Attention has already been called to this matter by some sections of the democratic Press, which most concern themselves with the condition of the labouring classes. I have here a Labour paper, published in Toowoomba, called The De·mocTat and Do1cns Agricultnrist. In noticing the Budget Speech, the editor of that paper says--

It is a pity, however, that such a cheering and lucid tableau of our financial position should be marred by a virulent and unwarranted attack on federatiou, which will make the delight of reactionaries throughout A us~ tralia, and is verfectly tunvorthy of an Australian statesman.

There is no doubt about it. I do not know why the Treasurer should go out of his way to attack federation. Federation appears to some mem­bers of the :;\Iinistry to be snmet hing like King Charles's head was to Mr. Dick, and they are constantly dragging it in, in the most lumber­some fashion at times. If it could be done grace­fully on some occasions there might be some excuse for their action, but they drag it in in season and out of season r.nd in the most inapt and cumbersome manner. The Secretary for Agriculture, even at some gathering in- connec­tion with a kindergarten club in the Valley, had to drag in federation. I do not see any reason for the paragraph in the Statement referring to federation. I believe the time has arrived when we should stop this const"nt nagging at the federal authorities and the Federal Government. It does no g·ood. The Federal Government has not satisfied everybody. No Government has satisfied everybody. The present Government in this State is supposed to be the must democratic Government we have had in Queensland, and it does not satisfy me.

An HoNOURABI,E ME:IJBER: Does the Federal Government satisfy you?

Mr. LE8INA: No coalition Government will ever satisfy me, •,nd the Federal Government is a coalition Government of the worst type­although the Labour party stand out of the Cabinet. This constant heckling of the federal authorities, these constant comr•laints that they are upsetting our financial arrangements, and that their actions means ruin unless we can get out of the federation, does no good. It has done no good in the past, and I doubt very much whether it will be any good in the future. It is perfectly true that there is some falling off in the amount payable by the federal authoriti~s to Queensland, but it must not be forgotten that any reduction which has taken place is largely

1906-2w

due to the removal of duties on tea and kerosene and things of that description, and that the money so saved is practically a saving to the people of Queensland. The people are so much better off in not having to pay that money to the G-overnment through the Customs and Excise. The federal revenue, a• all hon. members know, is derived from Excise and Customs, and those re­ductions are practically not injurious to us, as is suggested by the Government, inasmuch as they show that the people n.re spending less on those things. If there is any falling off in the revenue from liquors and tobacco, that proves conclu­sively that the people are smoking less and drinking less, and that is a thing the Treasurer and his supporters should congratulate them­selves upon, because it shows that the people are cultivating habits of temperance, sobriety, and thrift. But, instead of that, the Treasurer bemoans the fact that he is met by a falling off in the amount received from the Federal Govern­ment. This falling off in federal revenue may be due to the fact that the country imports less than it did formerly, and that our primary productions are increasing, that the people here are making the goods that hitherto they were in the habit of importing from abroad, and to those politicians who believe in protection to industries that should afford joy.

Mr. FoRSYTH : It may be due partly to increased expenditure.

Mr. LESINA: Certainly the expenditure of ~he Federal Government has been extensive, but ;t has not been so extensive as many public men m Queensland attempt to make out. vVith regard to the sugar industry, the whole of Aus­tralia is making a big pecuniary sacrifice in order to establish that industry upon a white Aus­tralia basis. That in itself is a reason why the Treasurer and the Secretary for Agriculture should look at thi~ matter more from an Australian and leb" from a parochial point of view. I regret very much to see that little, petty, parochial paragraph in the Treasurer's Statement, by which it is sought to make the people be­lieve that we are the victims of a gan"' of robbers in Melbourne. That is not th~ sort of thing to encourage the federal spirit, and I am sorry to see the Secretary for Agricul­ture defending such a provincial, parochial narrow-minded paragraph about the federai authuritie;. That is one thing that I object to in the Financial Statement. Another thing- to which I object is a feature to which many demo­cratic newspapers throughout the Sto.te have called attention, and that is the unsympathetic ignuring of that large body of struggling un­employed people throughout the State who at pre8ent aretravellingfrom one end of the country some of them assisted by the Labour Burea~ Department, looking for employment. The fact that our indebtedne.ss is reduced under £2 per head, that the policy of the Government in con­nection with central mills is a succes', that the number of Saving-' Bank depositors has increased that the salaries of railway servants and othe~ public servants have been increased-all these things are mentioned, but no reference is nude to the large body of unemployed people. I do not know why a sympathetic paragraph in reference to those people should not have been in­serted in the Financial Sto,tement. Did the Go­vernment want people who read that Statement to believe that there are no unemployed people­in existence here, that the unemploved have practically vanished, and that there are".now none existing in Queensland? If that was their idea, the sooner it is knocked on the head the better. In nearly every quarter of Queen> land, as you will find if you care to make investigation, there are a large number of people still in search of" employment. They cannot all turn to cane-

Mr. Lesina.]

1:590 Suppl,y. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

cutting, or to the improvement of the public estate. Outside those industries-I do not know whether I can call improving the public est:;te an industry, as it pays such a small wage and the employment is ,·ery sordid-but outside those industric> there are a large number of unemployed persons who can find no source of employment at all. There is another thing I should like to draw attention to. There is no announc"'meut in the Statement of any intention on the part of the Uovelllment to rednc.· railway freights, which are a big burden on the shoulder·~ of struggling agriculturist". \Ve have a Minister in charge of the railways who is very much interested in the handling of agricul­tural produce, and one who is strollgly in sym­patliy-so he sa.ys in his pnblic sp•· ches-with the farming community, and yet no steps have been taken to cut clown these excessive freights. These poor people have borne the heat and burden of the clay; they have gone through flood, and fire, and drought; they have now reached a little streak of sunshine, and this Government offers them no helping hand, If they had only reduced railway freights it would have been some indication that they were anxious to benefit this struggling class of settlers. The To01voomba Democrat, in writing of these matters, says-

On such an occasion the first thonght of a Seddon would have been for those humble farmers and workers who have so bravely borne the brunt of the hard times and have been so largely instrumental in the restora­tion of our prosperity. But, alas: 'varm-hearted Seddon is gone, and his place has not yet been filled.

The great need of Queensland to-day is a Sed don, but, as far as can be judged, there is no immediate prospect of one arising. The hon. member for Toowoomba, Mr. Smart, in addressing his consti­tuents at Middle Ridge recently, referred to Mr. Secldon. He was pleading pathetically on behalf of tha Government of the clay that they should have a further chance, and he said it took Richard Secldon thirty years to accomplish his work.

Mr. SMART : That is not correct. That is the Democrat.

Mr. LESINA: Then the hon, member repudiates the support of the Dcmocmt ?

Mr. S111ART: Certainly. Mr. LESINA: I am very pleased to see that

he has been taken to task for that statement regarding Sedclon. \Ve want a man of Sedclon's stamp here, with a statesman-like grasp of affairs, who will make a serious effort on behalf of the working classes of this State. It was in reality John Ballance who laid the foundation for the good results enjoyed by New Zealand to.cJay. Seclclon took up the work where John Ballance laid it clown, and in pushing that work forward he erected the best of all monuments to the work of the late Hon. John Ballance. It is idle to say that Secldon took thirty years to accom­plish his work.

Mr. KERR : Si.r George Grey preceded him. Mr. LESIN A: Sir George Grey was a

political reformer more than a social or industrial reformer. I repelOt that Queensland's greatest need is a man with the grasp of affairs of Seclclon.

Mr. ,J. LEAHY: \Vhat is wt·ong with you'? Mr. LESINA: I have no pretensions to being

a statesman. I leave that to humbler persons with a much larger faith in their ability than I have. Now that the Government has ceased boning the tripe, cutting down the rations at Dunwich, and employing kanaka butchers to save a few paltry pone<•, there is a demand for a strong statesman. The position is open to such a man and I thought at one time that the pre­sent P~ernier would fill it. But how could you mention him in the same street with Seddon? He has done things, and permitted them to be done, and continues to permit them to be clone,

[Mr. Lesina.

which are a disgrace to this State. He more closely resembles Thomas Bent, the strike smasher of Victoria, than any man I know. He hac; the same desire to ride roughshod over the people and lord it over the people.

Mr. KERR: It was Irving who smashed the strike.

Mr. LESINA: He is of the same type as Irving t.ncl Bent. This is the only opportunity we have r<·.dly of coming face to face with the Go\'ernment, ventilating grievanc~s and criticis­ing their administration. Some of the Ministers shut the door in your face, others have no time, others are galivanting all over the country, and when they come back there is such an accmnula­tion of arreMs ttat th~y will not see anybody. The only hope of meeting and catechising them is on an occasion such as thi,. Their financial policy as disclosed in the Statement is the establishment of a higher minimum under the income tax. They propose to exempt incomes of £160, but it is not the kind of reform that I am inclined to support. I think they should exempt a certain amount in all incomes. I am strongly in favour of the first £200 in every income being exempted because I think the present system only leads to confusion and injustice. I found during my travels through Queensland that there was great dis,atisfaction among all clasc;es with the present Income Tax Act and its administration, and it is just about time that an amendment was made. Complaint has been made that the deb>tte on this Statemenb has been rather lengthy, and it is l'(etting late in the year, but hon. members are not re:<ponsible for tbat. If anyone is responsible it is the Government, who kept the doors of Parliament House locked ae;ainst the people's representatives as· long as they could, and only when they wanted Supply and could not carry on unkss they spent the people's money without the sanction of Parliament, did they open the doors and allow us to meet here and transact the country's business. \Vherever I went during my travels I found gre:>t dissatisfaction existed at the admin­istration of the public departments, and the one above all others which was most bitterly complained of was the Home Department. That appears to be about the worst conducted

department in Queensland. Every­[9. 30 p.m.] where there was dissatisfaction-

. police in one direction-police horses in another clirection-Dunwich in anothe1· clirec· tion-Goodna Asylum in another direction­internal work in the department ; in nearly every aspect of the department there was blunder upon blunder piled mountains high.

Mr. FoRSYTH : \Vhose fault was that? Mr. LESINA: The fault undoubtedly lies

either with the officers of the department or the Minister in charge. When the present Home Secretary sat in opposition, some years ago, I remember him saying· something with respect to the position that Ministers should take up towards the employees in their departments, and he pointed out then that the Minister who under· stood the duties of his office would exercise inde­pendence, and backbone, and strength of mind­those were his words-in order that the perma­nent otticers of the department, from the Under Secretary clown, who had a tendency to get into a rut or groove, would get out of it and do the work which th6 Minister insisted should be done. Each of the Ministers, instead of being practi­cally guided by his U ncler Secretary or officers, should exercise the independence and rc·,ponsi­bility which he enjoyed as a Minister, and compel those officers to do their duty. He has had an opportunity, since he took charge of the Home Department, and what has he clone? Right throughout Queensland at the present time there is a unanimous desire on the

Supply. [11 SEPTEMBER.] Suppl;lj. C91

part of nearly every person connected closely or remotely with the various branches of that department, to see some improvement effected in his administration. There is no doubt the administration is bad. I regret that I cannon refer to Dnuwich and Dr. Stockwell's case, as the appeal ic now pending before the Full Court. 'We have a right to discuss the m>ttter, but it might be regarded as exhibiting bad taste. But, if this rank incapacity and lack of administra­tive ability is to let the country into writs for damc,ges, the sooner a change is made in the administration the better it will be for the country. One of the things I discovered during :~c c~::::co 0£ my travels, and in which above all others the administration of the department appeared to call for the strongest and most candid critici<m, was that of the police. Some reference haJ been made by a previous speaker­it was referred to last year-that the Govern­ment, in pursuance of their policy of economy, had cut down expenditure in connection with the purchase of police horses. In nearly every part of Queensland in the \V est and N' orth, if you ask the local 8ergeant to show you the police horses, they will tell the mme story. In nearly every place where I went, the p'>lice authorities have complained about the quality of the horseflesh supplied by the Government, in order to enable them to do their duty. During my recent tour I looked at the police horses at one of the places, and I may say, without any exaggeration, that I never in ali my life saw such an extraordinary collection of broken-kneed, poor Roman-nosed equine monstrocities. (Laughter.) One horse in one district in North Queensland had not been fed for some months because there was no grass, but a wire came from tbe Commissioner-­! suppose acting under instructions from the Home Secretary, in order to cut down the expenditure-instructing him to put that horse off corn food for a period of three months, in order to 'ave a few paltry shillings. That was in the town of Chillagoe. I went to see the poor wreck tbat stood there ready to do his duty. If a murder were committed 50 miles away, the sergeant would have to mount that horse and go off as fast as he could go. 'fhe horse would not carry him 24 miles. On one occasion they were out, and this horse knocked up after doing 10 miles. Yet this poor brute was supposed to be able to prolong his equine existence on a diet of rags, paper, or whatever other rubbish it was possible for a horse to acquire an appetite for­(laughter)-for there was no grass when I was up there. The hotse was knocked off. Then, again, in another district where I w8nt, the police assured me that they had to borrow horses from hospitable ndghbours and private citizens­storekeepers and others who are feeding the animals-in fact, it would be impossible for tbem to do their duty if they were not occ<esionally under compliment to local men to borrow a horse.

Mr. J. LEAHY : How c1n they discharg-: their duty properly?

Mr. LE SIN' A: The·,· cannot do their duty properly if t!.ey hitve to be constantly receiving favours of this description. That is attribuhble to tbe policy of cutting down the horse feed, or refusing to buy the extra animals necessary. The cutting down of tbe police tracker is another complaint I have heard about. In my district, it has led to the death of Constable Orme. This is one of the matters on which I propose, during the debate on the :BJstimates, to obtain some light from the Government. They removed a number of trackers in order to save the 7s. 6d. a month paid to these men, and the removal of a black tracker practically led to the under-manning of the district. Some time ago word was brought to the Clermont police station by a miner to the effect that the dead body of a tmveller had

been found some 40 or 50 miles out, and an order was given by the authorities to send out a constable to dig a grave and bury tbe body. In the first place, there was some delay because of the quality of the horses; and, secondly, there was some delay because then, wasn't a solitary constable to send out on this duty: It was Christmas Eve, and some time in the afternoon CorHtable Orme, who was a very good bnsbman and a keen officer, and favourably known throughout the Centr"l Queensland Police Force, was instructed by hi" senior officer to take a horse and .;;o out. IIe sent away by hi1n~ self, because the police tracker had been sacked, and the staff being undermanned there was no extra constable to UC\Jnmpa.ny him. He 'vent out and stopped on the r ad sonw 18 or 20 miles out, borrowed a pick and shovel, and Wtut on. It gradually bectme dark. He found the body, dug a grave 3 or 4 feet deep, buried the body, and then attempted to return home. He evidently hurried a bit, became it must have been consider;,bly after dark by this time, and he wented to get back to Clcrmont in time to ,,pend his Christmas with his wife and family. In the pitch darkness he got off the track ; his horse cannoned against a tree and w::>s killed, and the man himself was so frightfully injured that he had apparently only Rtrength enough to crawl a few yards and hell into a dry gully, where he slowly bled to death and was found dead there twenty.four hours afterwarciP. The death of this man I lay deliberately at the door of the present Government. His death was solely due to the meanness of the department in first cutting clown the black tracker, HBC<mdly, in undermanning the staff, and, thirdly, in sending out one policeman on a disagreeable journey to fulf:tl the disagree­able duty of burying a body which had been dead for days. If the accident had occurred while he was accompanied hy a black tracker or by another constable, his companion might have ridden away for assistance, or carried him to the ne:trest place. This is how officers who do their duty are treated by this Government; and, if they treat one man like that, they will treat 100 in the same way unless protest is made. It is not only in my district that this heartless, penurious policy is adopted of saving a few pence here and risking a man's \ rluahle life there. vVhen news of the death of Constable Orme was brought in, the same miserable pinch-penny economy was practised. His b<_Jdy was left lying there for twenty-four or forty-e1ght hours, and a whole afternoon W«S lost before police were sent out, the reason being that they had no horses. They had to send to a local coachdri ver and commandeer his buggy and horses ; and then, when he sent in his bill, the Home Secretary promptly cut down the item by one·half, and worried over it for week< before he would pay it. Then, again, the Home :Secretary refused J'.frs. Orme permission to have her husband buried in Rockhampton, and insiste l that he should be buried in Clennont. I 1\ ant to know what kind of nnn this is. Ha" the man g,>t any heart or c ms8ience at all when h3 conduct' the department on these scandalous lin~~s? No other Government ever did it. No other Home SecretarY ever sat here who was guilty of such a thing" as tbat. \Vhy should I sit behind a man like that and continue to keep him in of!ice when he does ~uch thirigs? And what he did in my district he will P•'obably do in some other member's di,trict before the next election takes place. :\Ire. Orme's husband lost his life in the execution of his duty just as truly as any soldier who falls upc,n the field of battle. Did the Government treat him like a soldier who dies in battle? How has the Home Se~retary treated Mrs. Orme? He gave her a paltry year's salary and turned her adrift.

Mr. Lesina.]

692 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

The HOME SECRETARY : That was all he had power to give.

Mr. LE8IN A: Have the Government no power to place a sum on the Estimates for a policeman's wirlow who was killed in the execution of his duty? They can give Dr. Maxwell £400 a year for travellinfi expense' and £89 a year for cah hire ; but they c11n only give a policeman's widow a paltry year's salary.

The Hmm SECRETARY: That is untrue. Mr. LESINA: \Veil, that is the latest infor­

mation I have received from Mrs. Orme. Possibly the Government have added to it since, and possibly because of my representations. There is another case which has come under my notice. Some time ago in Mackay, a constable named Price went out to arrest a gin-maddened Cing­hali, and, in attempting to secure this savage, who was armed with a knife, he was stabbed, and died in a few seconds. Under precisely similar circumstances only a month or so before, a constable was shot by a mad kanaka in New­town, in Sydney. Now let us contrast the action of the two Governments. In New South Wales they have a "boodle" Government-a Govern­ment whose hands are dirty because of the land Hcandal. Here we have a Government of light and leading-the most democratic Government that Queensland has ever had, the hon, member for Croydon told us.

Mr. MuRPHY: You used to say that not long ago.

Mr. LESIN A : I believe that the first month they were in office they proved they were not that, and they have Jcroved it more and more ever since, until I am satisfied now they are the worst Uovernment that ever took possession of those benches. However, let us compare the action of the "boodle" Government of New South Wales-which doer> not contain a •ingle Labour member--with the action of this Government, which contains two Labour members. RJth policemen lost their lives at the hands of mad savages-one a kanaka and the other a Cingalee. In New South \Vales they gave the widow £200, paid the funeral expense8, put up a monument over her husband, and they gave the widow and her family £100 a year for ten years-or con­siderably over £1,200 altogether. Our police are not 1Jaid as well a' the police inN ew South \V ales, and they have more work to do; and you would think that for tlmt reason they would be better treated when they risk their lives. Did they erect a monument over the body of Constable Price? Is there any provision on the Estimates for J\Irs. Price? Did they do anything else? They gave Mrs. Price £100, and £60 of that her husband had paid into the superannuation fund, so that really all they gave her was £40. She has four children, one of whom is deaf and dumb, and the Home Secretary will make no provision for taking that child into the deaf and dumb insti­tution. For weeks and months every effort has been made to get that child into the institution. Will the hon. gentleman do it? He is thinking of the few paltry pence it will take to keep him there.

The HcmE SECRETARY: That is untrue. Mr. LE SIN A: He gave her £10 a head for

each of her children. The Ho>JE SECRETARY : An offer has been

made to make provi"ion for tha children. That is the second piece of mendacity you have b~en guilty of in five minutes.

Mr. LESINA: vVhen was that offer made? Mr. PAGET: During the last week. Mr. LE SIN A: \Vel!, until within the last

week £100 was all that was offered. I consider it an insult to offer any policeman's widow £100. Is there any eomparison. between £100 paid to that widow and the £1,200 paid in New South Wales? The one case shows the extraordinary

[Mr. Lesina.

generosity of a Government which dof's not pre­tend to be Labour or even democratic, and which is dirty in other respects, while the other shows. the meannefls of a Government which does pre­tend to be democratic and to be very careful of the welfare of the people and of the public ser­vants nndtr its control. Provision ought to be made for Mrs. Price and Mrs. Orme for four times the amount that has been paid to them. At any rate, we should pay those two unfortu­nate widows decent compensation for the loss of the bread winners of their families. \V e passed a Workers' Compensation Act only last session, and the present Home Secretary went through­ant the length and breadth of the country declaring that the people ought to rise and de­clare the present Government blessed for passing that Act. Does not that Act provide £400 as compensation for the loss of a breadwinner in his battle for existence? And yet they hand over £40-one quarter of a paltry year's salary­to the widow. Surely a policeman is worth £400 to this State? At least his life is worth that if he loses it in the execution of his duty, and leaves his wife and children practically helpless and uncared for. On the Police Estimates those member• who sympathise with tbe position of those two wido w.s should call the Government's attention to the necessity of placing a decent sum on the Estimates for­them. The honour of the State is involved in a thing- like that. If we are going to treat the wives of our public servants who lose their lives in the execution of their duty in this penurious fashion we shali become a by-word in the Aus­tralian States. The only way to stop that is to treat them generously. Sureiy with the bounti­ful seasons that we have, and this Financial Statement, which breathes fatness, we should be able to treat them generously. I hope that the Home Secretar~ will make generous provision so that other police officers will know that when they go out to repn ss crime and criminals, if they lose their lives, it will make their dying hour happy if their wives are not left to starve by an ungrateful Government. I ba\ e another case in connection with the department over which the Home Secretary presides like a figure of doom. (Laughter.) It is the case of a police­man in the Tambo district, if I remember the district correctly. Some time ago when the drought broke and the flood waters came pouring down and the town wa< thrf:,~tened, I understand that this policeman eiLher expended some cash or went to the expense of procuring a boat--

Mr. KERR : He did not expend any money. The HOli!E SECRETARY : Let him go on. 1\Ir. LESINA: He, himself, went to the

expense of ordering a boat or of getting the Iilaterial for it. \Vhether he has paid the account or not, I don't know. .U any rate, the boat was built, and I understand the live,; of two wr.men wer<e rescued from drowning during the flood. He either did what I state or some other such work of equally meritonons character. I under­stand that that policeman was rapped over the knuckles by the department for yenturing to take the re"ponsibility on his own shoulders for the expenditure of public money in the con­struction of that boat.

Mr. MANN: \Vas he fined? He told them in Cairns he was fined.

Mr. LESINA: I do not say he was fined, because it is not a matter he can be fined for; but he received a rap over the knuckles for duing what he did. So far as I was able to ascertain, when I was going through the di,trict at that time, that policeman was under the impression that be would have to pay the money out of his own pocket. "Whether the Government insisted on his doing- that or not, I cannot say. It is to

Supply. [11 SEPTEMBER.] Supply.

'oe hoped for the credit of the State that he was not compelled to pay that money out of his own pocket anyhow, because if they do it will simply add another cubit to the mountain of iniquity in that department in connection with police mat­ters. Now it appears to me that in three .police cases you have illustrations of rank inca­pacity in the career of the Home Secretary. Never flince Queensland has had responsible government httve you had a parallel of these cases. You could havB no parallel. It is a unique experience. There is a go"d deal of real ground for cnmplaint in the admini>tmtion of the Police Department. Whether the Commissioner is responsible for the business, or whet her it is caused by the blunder­ing action on the parb of his officers here and there throughout the State, I cannot say, but the whole question deserves inquiry, and I hope that inquiry will take place. 'l'here are one or two matter,; that I have been making inquiries >tbout. I am not satisfied yet with the information that I have at my di'spnsal, and if I secure such information, when the Police Estimates cume on, I will ventilate the cases of other policemen which have been placed before me. With respect to the administration of Dunwich, the Govern­ment have recently passed some regulations fixing the rations that are to be given to the inmates. I have not got a list of the rations with me, but the list was published the other day in some of the papers up North, 11nd they commented on the generosity of the Government. I notice that those people at Dunwich who do not work have been deprived of a slice of bread a day. This is an entirely recent change ; it only came about a little while ago.

:Mr. HARDACRE: And 2 oz. of meat for break­fast.

Mr. LESINA: Oh! is that it? They lost 2 oz. of meat for breakfast and one slice of bread at midday. I have not got the list by me, but anyone who looks at it will see that it is not fit for the people who have got to live upon it. Another thing I notice is that recently some thirty men were taken from Dunwich and put to work on Peel Island, and I understand another thirty men have been sent there, making .sixty altogether. These men are engaged in tl·enching, well-sinking, fencing, and agricultural work, and I understand that they are paid at the rate of ~d. an hour for an eight-hour da-y to do hard work of that description-2s. a week; Ss. a month.

M,r, FoRSYTH: There is no minimum wage there.

Mr. LESIN A : That is the minimum wage­~d. an hour. I understand that lately this Ss. a mcmth was knocked off. I should like to find out from the Home Secretary if there is any truth in that statement-that Ss. a month was knocked off these men, and that they have to do this work for nothing. I say that if this country cannot treat these poor old people as well as they treat them in tbe other States of Australasia, then it is time to give up boast­ing about its wonderful resources and its wealth. _\!most all these people went to that institution down there becwse they are physically unable to labour. Most ,of them were applicants for outdoor allowance, and the admission to Dunwich is counter­signed by the medical oflicer who examines them and certifies that the person applying for admission is physic:tlly unfit to labour. If we make it conditional that these old people have to labour for their livelihood, then we are imposing hard labour on people who should not be called upon to labour for the food they consume. However, other opportunities will offer in the fullness of time to deal with the Home Secre­tary's Department. But I want to say this

before I leave it : Either through the Minister's incapacity or the ineptness of the officials in charge of this department. it is to-day adminis­tered on lines unparalleled since tbe ad vent of responsible government in Queensland. Another Minister whose department I hettrd discussed considerably, and that adversely, is that of the Hon. the Secretary for Public Lands, but before I deal with his department I want to deal with another denartment, and that is the one run by the Secretary for Agriculture. The Secretary for Agriculture is not only an active politician-he is more-he is an active busi-

ness rnan ; and as a business man as [10 p.m.] well as a politician he now steps on

the platform. That hon. gentle­man, as most mernbers are aware, is a mernber of the firm known as the Silverwood Dairy :Factory Company, and his other partner, I under,tand, is ,John Rei d. One of the indus· tries in which he is particularly interested is that of the export of butter, and one of the industries in which his firm is particularly interested is the butter industry. He is in­terested in that industry both as a Minister and as a business man. Some time ago, it will be remembered, the Melbourne Press was filled with furious diatribes against a system that had been introduced in Queensland being- adopted with c~nsiderable ill-effects to the dairying in­dustry of Victoria-nHmely, that of "faking" butter-boxes. I have here a copy of the Dairy and Farm Journal of May, 1906, and it con­tains some particulars about this extraordinary occurrence in which the Secretary for Agricul­ture is sugpiciously mixed up.

Mr. J. LEAHY: Is that a Victorian paper? Mr. LESIN A: No, it is a Queensland paper,

published in Brisbane. This is a reprint from the Melbourne Age-A S:E:\"SA1'JO~ll L IKDICTMEKT AGAT~ST , QITEENSLAND

BUTTJ+~R MAKUE'AC1TRBRS.

A Double-bf·tmdecl Box. When the recent Royal Commission on the butter in~

dustry made its investigations (says the l\Ielbourne Age of a recenL date), the }Jroducers of Victoria and the community generally were astounded at the revelations which were then made public. Day after day f1·esh light was thrown on the scene, and the examination of witnesses showed that the whole maclnnery of the but­ter trade was practically involved in a network of trick­ery;brought about by the greed and deception of many of the middlemen who were then acting as agents for butter factories. Since the final report of the commis­sion was published, the majority of the factories have adopted co-operative measures in the handling and sale of their produce, with gratifying results, and it was thought that the industry was 1 id of those who had been such a menace to one of our greatest snurces of production. From recent discoveries, however, it would appenr that the hjgh reputation which Victoria has gained for the q_uahty of her bl:ltter is again to be thn:'a.tened. For some time large quantities of Vic­torian butter have been exported to Sonlh Africa, but recentlv several well-lmown j.1.clbourne exporters have found fhetr trade vanishing, owing to the fact that they wem unable to compete with local rivals, who were underselling them in the trade.

One of the most reputable firms of l\Ielbourne merchants haR just mnct.e a peculiar discovery, which called for pl'Ompt and rigorOUS investigation rl'he facts show that certain Queensland butter, \vhich has always been Tegarded as a lo\\"cr grade than Yietorian, is being packed in cases in~eniously de:;igned with registered Victorian bTands. The cireumstancE'<:; aSf'lCiated with the discovery are peculiar, for they show great la.x~ty on the part of the Queensland Government authont1es who attach the stamp of that Governmcut to bu1ter. Some fe\Y we-eks ago the fir1n of l\:1eibourne merchants above referrpd to purchased through the local agents of a Queensland butter fnctorv a ton of butter for delivery in l\Ielbourne The con'1'1gnment, comprising about forty boxes, came forward at the end of last week, and to the surprise of the purchasers it was di . ..;coverecl that, while the outside of the boxes bore the Queensland Go­vernment stamp and the brand of the Qtu';:,nsland butter factory, there was a wellMknown regL~tered Vic­torian brand on two sides of the interior of the boxes.

J.Vlr. Lesina.]

694 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl_y.

The following is the exact marking of the brands on the outside of each box:-

Silverwood :.\Iountain Creamery, Queenslaud. Buttercup B1·and.

56 lb. net. Contiguous to the above is the Government stam1) marked-

Department of Agl'icultnre and Stock, Queensland. Approved for export. Xo. 1 interstate.

The butter is packed in the usuaJ wrappers, and· being consigned in cold storage, h, readily turned out of each box in a 1<.olid block. ·when this was done on Saturday morning, in the lH'esence of a representatiYe of the Age, the follmving registered Victorian brand was discovered on two sides of the interior of each box:-

Australian Butter.-Golden Churn Creamery. {Here thP desit::n of a churn app~<t.rs.)

Registered trade mark. l~xtra choice qnalit~·.

\Vhat do you wll this--smart practice? This is an honest Government, the cream of democratic Government, and yet a member of it goes in for this kind of business, and his colleagueo in the Cabinet stick to him like glue.

The SECRE1'ARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Are you suggesting that he did it?

Mr. LESIX A: His fit·m did it. The SECRETARY FOR PGBLIC LANDS : Do you

say that he, the Secretary for Agriculture, did it?

J.Ir. LESIX A: I suppose he ''winked the other eye."

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : You borrowed mnnev from him.

The Ho;uE SECRJ<JTARY: He borrowed £10 from him last election and never paid it, and now he slanders him in the I-Lmse.

l\lr. LESIJ'\A: That shov:s the independence of my criticism. I must be stirring the "possum'' in some of the Ministers when they hark like this. This extract shows how easily the thing was done-

In order to show how easily the Queensland packagr conld be turned into an apparent box of Victorian butter, of Golden Churn brand, "extra choice quality," the Queensland brands: were shaved off with a plane in a twinkling, then the two sides bearing- the Victorian registered brand we1·e renn·sert., and the package was to all appearance a box of VIctorian butter. The whole operation of dr8.Wing the nails, planing off the Queens­land brand, and reversing the sides of the boxes, was performed by ~L smart workman in a few seconds. 1Vhat could be done with boxes so branded in the hands of fraudulent butter·dealers can readily be understood.

\Vben the Roy!ll C·•mm1ssion on tlw butter industry made investigatins as to the ".-;ub~titution and altera­tion of brands," a lot of valuable evidence was given l)y Captain Simpson, of the stearn."3bip ":J.-Ioravian." He describeU how boxes were branded in one instance on the voyage from Sydney to )Ielbourne by workmen employed by agents. In the course of his evidence before the commission :Jir. G. U. Hope, of :Jiessrs. Bartram and Son, admitted. that the brand known as "Golden Churn," now diseovercd. on the packages of the Queensland bntter above referrC'd to, belonged to his firm, and '''}l<ol registered in Yir"~oria.

The P"Cplanation of the Queensland Goyernment in regat·d to this matter will be awaited with interest

At the present time Victorian butter has a good name in South Africa; but should the inferior prodnce of other States find its waY to that market. and be sold as Victorian, then we shali soon find our butter at a dis­count. Those who are clo::;;eJy identified 'vith the South African trade aver that consignments or Q.ueensland butter bave already been sold, and are now being des­patched as Victorian, to South African ports, and unCer this fraudulent system honourable traders in our pro~ dnr~c cannot compete with tho8e ongagrd in shipping fr(Jffi the Northern State. Wllilo Queensland butter has been offering- at &;,.d., Victorian has been quoted at Jld. 'fhe public will wait further disclosures with in­terest.

::\Ir. PAGET: Is our butter inferior? Mr. LESIN A: If it ie, why not put it on the

market plainly, without these subterfuges? This report goes on to say-

Mr. D. F. Der,ham, ::\Iinister for Agriculture, who is also the principal shareholder, with ~lr. J. Reid (J. C.

[Mr. Lesina.

Hutton and Co.), in the Silverwood Bntter Company, characterised the statement as hysterical, and said that the firm referred to (.\fessrs. Bartram and Son) had some time back bought a quantity of Queensland butter for export, and had provided the factory her" with the boxes; hr its despatch direct to its destination, at the same time stipulating that their brnnd should be stampei on the boxes. The contract expired some time ago. When those butter-boxes were opened in the presence of the J\Ielbourne Age's representative, the butter came out clean, with no grea,,e. Then the nails were pulled out, the figures turned round, the Queensland brand shaved off; it is nailed up again, and goes away as Victorian butter to South Africa. \Vbat is the good of the hon. gentlema.n saying that the stat011ent is hysterical, unless he can prove that the state­ment is untrue? His firm is completely convicted of a fmudulent practice in sending away butter of this description. The Secret:uy for Agricul· ture says-

This :rem', mving to the wet weather, it was impossible for factories to obtain theil· full supplies oi timber, and probably having in-..nfficient wood wilh which to malw boxe;;:;, theY had made use of some of these old boxes, bearing th,:· brand mentioned. There ,vas no duplicity in the matter at all. It was e.-ident that no fraud was intended, becanse the person to wl10m the butter had been sent had made the discovery and had drawn attention to it.

That is not so, for it did not go to Bartram, but evidentiy went to some other firm. Victorian butter was selling in South Africa for lld. per lb.,. and Queensland butter at S~d. pei· lb.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRIOL"LTGRE: You have a tnare's nest entirely.

Mr. LESINA: The Melbourne Age proves conclusively that there were two brands, and there i' nn doubt that fraudulent brands were "faked" in connection with the matter. I under­stand that those boxe,; were made here, that they were made by a man at Rosalie who im­ported pine from New Zealand, and who had a contract for making butter-boxes. Since that he made a private arrangement with his creditors. Furthermore, the stamp u,ed was, I believe, made by a firm at \Voolloougabba. I do not wish to give the name; of these people, but, if necessary and if the facts are challenged, we shall produce the whole thing to show that a cleverly designed fraud was cnefully worked by a respectable firm in Queensland, and would prol-cchly have been worked for years to come if the fraud had not been di-covered.

The SEOHETARY FOR AGRIOL"LTURE: That is an unproved statement. ·

Mr. PAGET: Name the firms. Mr. LBSIJ'\A: I understand that the boxes

were made at Rosalie by a timber man engaged in the business there, and that the brand or die was made at \Vnolluongabba. But that is not the only thing. The butter~ boxes and the fraudu­lent "faking" of the butter brand would deceive buyers who bought that butter believing it was "Golden Churn" cre~nn hutter, and they would be robbed of money paid for Victorian butter when it was Qaeensland butter, "muggled into the country under a Queensland brand which was subse­quently ripped off, after w!"lich the butter was sold as Victorian butter. 'l'he bon. g-entleman cannot get away from those facts. He has an opportunity of explaining the matter in this debate on the Financial Statement, and if he does not, when we come to the Agriculture Estimn.te., we shall have more to say about it. The gentleman to whom I have referred had imported a large quantity of white pine from New ~3aland for Vict•>rian butter~ boxes-in fact, he imported nearly a whole shipment. During the drought the supply of butter. as the Minister explained in his statement in the daily Press,. failed, and this man had the timber, or the

Supply. [11 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 695

balance of the boxes, on his hand. The Si! ver­wood Dairy Factory people had that balanc,; of boxes when they sent away this order of a ton or so of butter to Victoria, and tbe whole thing was thus made public. If the butter had gone to the agents they were deotling with, the fraud would probably have gone on for year·· and years, but it went to the wrong firm, and they brought Elown a repre,entative of the Melbourne Ape, to whom the whole thing was explained. The Age devoted a whole leader to the matter, and proved its cabe right up to the hilt, and from that d•-'Y to this the }Iinister for Agriculture has practically never made any reasonable explana­tion which ttn ordinary person with two eyes in his head crmld see and nnrlerstand.

Mr. HARDAORE : \V hat lhtte is that paper? Mr. LESIN A: I gave the date uf the paper.

If any hon. member asks the librarian for the Melbourne Age for April or ::\hy he will find it for him, and the hon. member can read the whole thing for himself. I should like to know if the Minister for Agriculture has explained this matter in the columns of the Melbourne Age, or in any other big daily down in :Mel­bourne.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: From the source you got your other information you can obtain that information also, and make your story complete.

Mr. LESINA: I leave the Minister to explain that matter himself.

The SECRETARY E'OR AGRICUJ~TURE: I am not going to bother the House with it.

Mr. LESIN A : Very well. I have told the House that those boxes were made by a man at Rosalie with white pine imported from New Zealand, because Victorian butter manufac­turers would have New Zealand pine, non Queensland pine. Hon. members know the trouble that was made about the effect that Queensland pine had on the butter. However, there is another matter which illu•trates the fact that the Silverwood Dairy C"mpany are not beyond taking other opportunities of using the Department of Agriculture for their own purposes, or of preventing the operations of than department extending tu certain of their trans­actions. The Minister is suppo<;cd to be there as the trns· ee of the taxpayers of Queensland, and as the trustee of every primary producer in Queensland eng:,ged in dairy work, and he is supposed to see that nothing but the best butter and farm !Jroduce gne., ;;broad. Probably the best butter is tent abroad, but it did not bring as J::ig a price as Victorian butter. Now, some tune ago, thousands of bu"hels of weevily­infested wheat was sent away from the hon. gentlernan's 'firm. Tiley could not get a sale for it here, and what did they do? The hon. gentleman declined to discus~ the rnatter with me? But I lm,,w, and busine's men in this town know, that that weevily-infestr'd wheat was made into flour and sent away to the East. Is that the way to build up a reputation for Queensland products? And, mark you, this is a clean Cabinet, this is a demncratio o~binet which washes its hands-at least the Hom~ Secretary does-with invisible soap in invisible water, and wipes them on an imaginary towel in ~iscu~sing public questions. If the department IS gomg to be used for the purposes of private emolument in this fashion, the sooner it is im­peached thA better.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTuRE: It is utterly untrue.

Mr. LESINA: Now, I willleavethe Minister for Agriculture, and come to the 1\Iini.ster for Lands. During my recent tour in the country I heard a great deal about the Minister for L:mds. The people I met mostly had a vision of him, a ph an tom -like, fleeting spectacle of grandeur.

He fled through towns and villages in special trains. He appeared on the platform, and said "Haw." (Laughter.)

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! I hope the hon. member will refrain from making personal re­marks.

Mr. LE SIN A : I my he visited various parts of the State and took with him persons who, as far as I know, are not interested in agriculture. He never invited members of Parliament to accompany him, but he went on picnics with boon companions. I do not know whether that is any part of the Government policy, but it is another aspect of the case which requires co:'· sideration. Kow, I have a little more to say m reference to Cooranga South and Cooranga ~orth which I had not an opportunity of getting in last se<sion. This is a sequel t() my previous inl'estigation of this matter. Mr. C"meron, the gentleman C()ncerned, sends these additional Ltcts to me, and I prf1pose to get them into Hansard. \V e will see then whether the Minister, who so cavalierly and contemptuously referred to my previous criticism, has anything further to say on the subject.

The SECRETARY FOR Pt:BL!C LANDS : I replied to you definitely and courteously on the facts, and you know tl1at perfectly well.

Mr. LESI:;s-A: Here is what ::\Ir. Cameron has to say--

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS: Don't you get behind Mr. Cameron.

Mr. LESINA: I do not desire to shelter my­self behind Mr. Cameron, but here I would point out that the hon. gentlen.an is anxious to get the Government to extend thisDalby-Bellline, which will then bisect his land. That is his objective. He not only wants to get the land by "chousing" another man out of it, but he wants a railway put right through it.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : It will pay me much better to let the line stay where it is.

Mr. LESINA: This letter from Mr. Cameron is dtttect last December.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : And you have waited e1ll this time?

.Mr. LESINA: I had to. The hon. gentle­man and his colleagues kept the doors of Parlia­ment locked.

The CHAIRMAN : Order! The hon. mem­ber's remarks would have been more in order un the Address in Reply. I do not quite >ee h~nv the hon. gentleman connects his remarks wrth the :Financial Statement.

The SECHETARY FOR PUBLIC LAJ>DS: There should be a special motion to indict the whole Government.

Mr. LESIN A: I would not mind indicting the hon. g-entkman.

The SECRETARY FOR Pt:BL!C LANl,'S: \Vhy do you not do it?

Mr. LESTNA: The difficulty is this : one :Minister mav be a black •beep, and if his colleagues stick to him then their supporters stick to the Government.

ThA SECRETARY Jo'OR Pum~JC LANDS : \Vhy do you not get a Select Commit.tee?

:Hr. LESINA: A Select Committee should be appointed to inquire into this matter.

The SECRETARY JWR Pt:BI~JO LANDS: I invite you to 1nove for one.

Mr. LE.SINA: At all events, the Financial Statement refers at length to the Lands Depart­ment, and I am dealing with the administration of the department. I insist that if the Minister is so conscious of recti tu de he should welcome any additional light being thrown on this matter.

'fhe SECRETARY FOR Pt:BJ,JC LAJ>DS : I chal­lenge you to move for a Select Committee. I cannot do more than that. (Hear, hear!)

Mr. Lesina.]

696 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Mr. LESIN A: Will the hon. gentleman give me an afternoon to move it?

The SECHETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I should be very glad if you would,

Mr. LESIN 1\. : Let the hon. gentleman secure that concession for me from his colleague, the Premier.

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIC LANDS : You can choose your own committee if you like.

GovERNMENT 1\iEMBERS : Hear, hear ! Mr. MuRPHY : That is fair enough. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : The only

condition I make is that you resign your seat if they do not support you. (Hear, hear!)

Mr. LESIN A : Will the hon. gentleman make the same condition?

The SECHE1'ARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : If they convict me, of course I would.

Mr. LESINA: However, I will proceed to read Mr. Cameron's letter. If the hon. gentle­man is so perfectly clean-hand··'d in the trans­action, he cannot object to additional light being brought to bear on it. I am entitled to read this letter, which, after all, is only brief. He says-

Mr. Bell is reported to have sard-1. · . . "No other action was taken on his part

until he took office. llfr. Cameron then approached him, and he said be would like to obtain a lease under section 15 of the Act o! 1902, and asked for priority. He 1nformed :Thir. Oameron that he had laid down a rule in regard to section 15, and it would apply to him as well as to anyone else, under which he would only give priority under section 15 where the holder o! the license bad·been the former lessee or had established a ?onnection between himself and the land by putting on Improvements."

The above statement is, I presume, intended to con­vey the impression that Mr. Bell nnd mvsel! had a conyersation about making Oooranga sOuth Block available for lease under section 15, and that I then asked for priority. 1\~e never had any conversation on the suhject pri?r to the polling day (27th August, 190i), and ,t.he comm1sswner's court sat at DaJby on the 1st o! July o! that year.

The SEORETAl\Y FOR PcBLIO LANDS : That statement is ~~;bsolutely untrue.

Mr. LESINA: I inquired by letter whether the land comprised in

Occupation License Xo. 104 could be made available for lease under section 15 of the Act of 1&02 and that ~etter col?-t~ined ;no request for priority, tbe'Act being, In my opnuon (smcc supported by the opinion of the lear_ned Attorney-General) so exceedingly clear on the sUbJect._ Does .J.Ir. llell imagine that any power is vested 111 him to lay down rules which are in direct ~mntravention of the Act whieh he is now admini~:"tering ~n a. fashion so unique? I firmly believe he does Imagme something of the ldnd but I dare saY he will d_iscoyet:, before long that this is Queensltmd, not S1ber1a or Bagdad either.

The SEORETAl\Y JWR PUBLIC LANDS: \Vhy does he not go to law?

Mr. LESINA: J3y his own admission the hon. gentleman is subject

t? lapses of ~nemory, and it is noteworthy that these h~!'le lapses frequently prove of aclvantage to his indi­y.mual Interests. Further, there is no "condition of ImproYements" expressed or implied in section 15 · the privil! ~e of priority is granted to •· any person who is ~~ i~~e;~1~~:.~. in occupation of such land, or any part

THE SIWRETARY !<'OR PUBLIC LANDS : That is absolutely untrue.

Mr. LESINA: . 2. "He (:IIr. Bell) knew two persons wllo went to Inspect the land, and had since told him that if thev ha~ . li~ed it th~y _would have objected to Cameroi1 obtmnmg any priority, as he was not entitled to it." Up~n my word, this is amusing to a deb-ree. Two

questwns are suggested by the above-

fer(:~d ~~~hat nationality were the two "p;rsons1' re-

[Mr. Lesina.

(b) Is :\fr. Bell in the habit of administering the J,and Act to suit suggestions from "persons" whom he "knows,'' or may casually meet, quite irre'"lpective of a11ything contained in the Act itself P

3. "A remarka~ole thing was that he went through an election at Dalby, and though be was 1\Iinister for Lands he never heard a single word about the affair, which only took place six weeks before."

THE SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I never heard a single word about it during the whole election.

Mr LESINA: Yet, the leading local paper, the Dalby Leade1·, of

27th August, 1904 (polling d"Y at Dalby), cont~tined a column headed" Facts fm· Electors," from which I now append a short paragraph:-

"Bell wired to the Iferald some weeks ago that he would, when addressing the electors, explain all about the charge made against him of 'commandeering,' Cameron's Cooranga land. Mr. D. A. Cameron charges him with using his oflicial position as Minister for Lands to deprive him (i>Ir. Cameron) of his land in favour of Bell himself or his family. Bell has never alluded to this matter at all in any of his speeches. fJ.'he inference is, in the absence of explanation, that he is guilty of the charge made against h1m."

That appeared on election day, but the Minister said he never heard anything about

[10.30 p.m.] it. He was too anxious to keep the matter dark while he was up there.

Mr. BARBER: \Vas that Dillon's journal?

Mr. LESINA: No; Dillon was away, I think. It makes no difference. The statement was published, and the Minister--

Mr. MuRPHY: He says he is willing to leave the matter to a committee.

Mr. LESINA: We will continue the lEtter signed by Cameron, who continued to write periodical letters to Brisbane-

It did not occur to me at the time-

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I do not know which is Cameron and which is myself­make a distinction between us.

Mr. LESINA : They w1Il all read this letter. Mr. Cameron said-

It did not occur to me at the time, but it may have been very naughty or u Cameron" to write to the nasty (?) Brisbane papers anything likely to disturb the equanimity of the mig-hty potentate who directs the Department of Public Lands. In a !utile eff,>rt to get justice, "Cameron " also wrote a few short letters to the Dalb11 Leade,. (the other local paper would not, of course, be permitted to publish anything reflecting on the infallibility of the " Commander of the Faith­ful"), and it is comforting to learn now that the Dalby paper didn't "mattah."

But, good Lord! what a left-handed compliment to the people of Dalby. Is it desired to imply that they arc incapable of understanding something which, it is more th:-Jn implied, would be so obvious to the people of :Brisbane ?

5. Mr. Bell, having obtnined permission, quoted fron1 the official papers to show that Cameron had only held the land from l\Iay, 1900, and not for ten years, as stated by l\:Ir. J.esina. The total rent was £5 2s. 6d. In :March, 1904, he made a 1ninute for " twenty years' lease-no priority."

The SECUETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : You said he did not want priority. Do ;vou remember that?

Mr. LESINA: Ye,, he denies prwrity, yet he expected he would get it. Mr. Cameron thereupon remarks-

I am tempted to ask here what state the Lands Office is in, when we find the head of it committing himself to a statement so utterly inaccurate, and alleged to be quoted from the '·official papers" P

The SECRETARY FOR J't:BLIO LANDS : You can tell him from me that it was never in a better state.

Supply. [11 SEPTEMBER.] Suppl,y. 697

Mr. LESIK A: I hope that the matter will be correctly reported by the gallery angels. (Laughter.)

As it happens, I have in my possession, and can pro· duce at any tune, a receipt dated 1st October, l894, for the sum or £10 2s. 6d. sterling for deposit rent on Occupation License ~o. 160 (the same land as now called Cooranga South). \V hat doeR the hon. gentleman say to that?

The SECRETAltY FoR Pt:RLIC LANIJS : I simply say that he had not the slightest claim to pr'iority. ·

Mr. LESH\A: Is it true that the hon. gentle­man did not hold a certificate for ten years, as proved by me ?

The SJWRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : So I did. Mr. L"F~SIN A: \V ell, we will have the certifi­

{late produced. I do not think I should suffer because I am trying to do my duty to the general taxpayer.

The SECBETARY ~'OR PUBLIC LANDS : You are . trying to get in one at me.

Mr. LESIKA: Mr. Cameron goes on to say­The receipt bears the signature of the land agent at

Dalby, at the date mentioned. I have held it most of the time since; there was a pr,riod of about two years when I did not reqnire the land, and I allo\nd the license to lapse; durin2' this period, or the latter part of it, Mr. Oswa!d M. D. Bell held it, and when he no longer required it he transferred it to me, and I have held it continuously ever since.

The SE(JRETARY FOR PliBLIC LANDS: What period waR that?

Mr. LES IN A: A period of about two years. The SECRETARY ~'OR PUBLIC LANDS : You said

'COntinuously. Mr. LESIN A : No; I said he had held it for a

period of ten years. Mr. Oswald M. D. Bell held it for a period of two years, and when he no longfw required it he transferred it to Mr. Cameron. Then it says-

Your readers will note that the statement by Mr. Lesina was perfectly accurate, as that gentleman's state­ments usually are, and that the )'Iinister was quite astray (one of the'e little lapses of the estimable gentle­man).

"In ::Ylarf'h, 1904, he made a minute. '?\o priority.'" It does not redound to his credit, but it 'vas his forlorn hope if he wished to acquire the land himself. Again, the words of the Secretary for Public Lands in Hansard-

6. "Mr. Cameron had simply been treated in the same way as hundreds of others who had a~1md for priority under section 15 of the 1902 Act.n

Then Mr. Cameron says-· Really, this is becoming serious. Are we to under­

stand that he has perpetrated a most unworthy and grossly illegal Act not merely once, but actually hundreds of times, and is not even ashamed of it? Does the whole thing (by the Minister's own showing) not suggest the tl'adition of the hardened and impeni­tent offender against the laws and statutes?

And how does it accord with the" official" statement to me " there can be no 'practice 'in a matter of this kind, inasmuch ns the granting of a lease under the section cited bas only been made possible since the Act .of 1902 was pRssed? n

Again, the statement of the Secretary for Public Lands in HansarJ-

" He believed his wife had paid more for tbe lease than it was worth."

Does the hon. gentleman repeat that statement? Mr. Cameron continues-

That woul<l altogether depeud upon the point of view from which tbe question 'vas regarded. A~smning, for the sake of argument, that the illegali1y and injustice of the }Iinister's action conld be overlooked, and that the lease to :Jirs. Bell could be regarded as valid, it is a matter of simple calculation how thi1:gs wonld "pan out." In the early part of I9;H, the unexpired term of leas0 of the forfeited Cooranga North holding was, it is alleged, offer('d at auction in Brisbane. About this time the ::\finister had one of those neriods of abstrac­tion, lapse of memory, Ol' absent-mindedness {call it what you will), and "gave no directions" about

advertising the sale of this valuable property, the result being that it probably wu.s not advertised in any paper, certainly not in either or both of the local papers, as the Minister afterwards admitted it should have been.

The SECHETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I had no more to do with it than any man in this Chamber-in regard to advertisin;:;.

Mr L]~SlNA: Tha\ is another matter for the Select Committee. Mr. Cameron goes on to remark-

\Vhen submitted at auction there was, of course, no competition, anU this valuable block of 2:t square miles was knocked down to the solicitors of the Hon. the 11inister at the upset annual rental of £7 17s. 6d.!

The SECRETARY !<'OR PUBMC LA:-ms : Y on are talking of another place now.

Mr. LESINA: I am talking of Cooranga North.

The SECRETARY !<'OR PliBLIC LANDS: You have been talking of Cooranga South; you do not know what you are talking about .

Mr. LESIN A: We will get the facts later. Thus we get--

Cooranga North, 24 sq. miles Cooranga South, 4

£7 17 6 £20 0 0

Total area .. . .. . 28 sq. miles. Total rent £27 17 6 Average rent a minute fraction under l9s. lld. per

square mile. Assuming that the attempted H commandeering" will

succeed, the average rent is reasonable enough. I believe the original Cooranga holding was leased at £15s. per square mile. That being so, it is difficult to see how the State benefited by the two transactions.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : What are you deducing from that?

Mr. LESIKA: That the man who held pos­session of the land-who held it for ten years­was "choused" out of it by the :Minister and his better half to .secure both portions at a reduced rental. It is a gross maladministration of the department when the Minister breaks his neck to secure land.

The SECRETARY ]'OR PUBLIC LANDS : Every application is dealt with in the same way under section 15. Because he lost priority he makes a fuss.

Mr. LESINA: It will be interesting to know how the State benefited by the two transactions, although the hon. gentleman swore o_n ,his oat~, as the King's representatiVe, to a_drrnmster th1s department fairly, and see the mterests of the taxpayers protected.

The tiECRETARY ~'OR PuBLIC LANDS : What I know is that I did not do anything to be ashamed of, or anything I ought not to have done.

Mr. LESINA: The hon. gentleman has got the land.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC JL~NDS: You are an infernal "shicer."

Mr. LESIN A : Mr. J ackson, the hon. gentleman called me an "infernal shicer," and I call your attention to it.

The CHAIRMAN: I hope the hon. gentle­m:tn will withdraw that .

The SECHETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : There are certain respects we should pay to parliamen· tury procedure, and, without saying one word n,bout the truth of the remark, I recognise that I should not employ it here, and I do with­draw it.

1\Ir. LESINA: I am not satisfied, but it does not matter. (Laughter.) The hem. gen:leman does not put me out of humour, not .m. the slightest degree. I have made three Mm1sters to-night lose their temper, which shows that my stings mmt have hurt them.

Quite apart from t,hat considera:::on it is a fairly ope_n secret abou~ the Dalby district that .:nr. Bell and lus group (or tribt·.'--

I suppose the hon. gentleman knows what a Dago is-it means a \Vest Indian who has some

Mr. Lesina.]

698 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

coloured blood in him, and I think 1 could prove that the hon. gentleman has some Dago blood in him.

The CHAIRMAN : Order ! I must agctin ask the hon. member fur Clermont to refrain from making personal observations.

The SECRETARY }'OR PCBLIC LANDS ; It is an unmitigated and contemptible lie.

Mr. LESI0!A: Did you hear the hon. gentle­man tell me, Mr. J ackson, that it was "an unmitigated and ,_:ontemptible lie"?

The SECHETARY FOR PcBLIC LA~ms: I do not believe, if the Chairman asked me to withdraw the statement, that the Committee would ask me to do it.

HoNOURABI,E :MEMBERS: Hear, hear! The CHAIRMAX: \Vhil,;t the Secretary for

Lands i~ not juscified in making- the stcctement that he has made, the hon. member for CJer­mont, by the course he is indulging in, is certainly drawing ob>-ervations of that character from the Secretary for L~nds.

Mr. LESI0!A: The hon. ;;-mtlcm~n has been fairly free with them in reference to myself. HoweYer, I shall not pursue that any further except to R1Y that Mr. Cameron remarks-

Quite apart from that consideration, it i" a fairly open secret about the Dalby district that :Jir. Bell and his group (or trib?1 hawdn the past enjoyed. and stille11joy, certain privileges and immnniiics not ustml\y ac:·orded to the ordinary holder of lanrl, and which are, emphati­cally, not proYided for in any Land Ac!;,

There are many other matters besides the Cooranga lands which require a little daylight thrown npon them. but, singularly enough, and in striking contrast to the other AustraJian StatC''-l. the" powers that be" clo not seem at all anxious about an ilHtniry or inTesUgation.

l\Iore's the pity; it is urgently requirecl.

I am, Sir, You1·s truly.

D. A. CA:'!l.EUOS. Dalby, llth December, 1905.

I should very much like to seP. the Secretary for Lands, on the strength of that reply, use his influence with the Cabinet, of which he is a sub­ordinate member, to secure an afternoon and allow me to move a motion for the appointment of a Select Committee and Lo call for papers and persons and to take evidenr,e on oath in connec­tion with the leases of Cooranga North and Cooranga South blocks, which have been granted to himself and his wife sinc'J he has taken charge of the Lands Department. That is a fair pro­position ; and, if his hands are perfectly clean in this matter, he has nothing at all to lose hut nry Il!nch to ~;ain, because he will prove that Mr. Cameron has been misleading not only the mem­bers of this Committee, but the daily Press of Brisbane, for both daily papers havf; published his lettere, and the Dalby papers hav-- al9o pub­lished his letters, and I h>we read his letters here, and the Minister has r.- plied to Yarious speeches I have delivered. Under those circumstances, and in order to remove suspicion, he might use his influence to get thoe Government to give rne an afternoon, when I will move for the appointment of a Select Committee; and, while I am on this <cubject, I might suggest to the Secretary for Agriculture tlmt he should use hi" influence with the Premier to haye a Select Committee appointed to inquire into the "faking" of butter and the sc,nding away of weevil-infested flour. Look at the list of experts getting £500 and £600 a year each to see that the produce of Queensland that is sent awuy is of the purest q nality, and bears the Government brand, so that wherever it goes it will give Qneensland produce a good name. While one Minister is using his department to benefit his own business, and while his colleague is using his department to enable him to do his own land business, we might have a Select Com-

[Mr. Lesina.

mittee to inquire into all these things. We have not had these things in connection with previous Governments. They have spent money in many instances upon things that were not justifiable, 'fhey made blunders in connection with tank engines and things like that, of which we all corn plained when they were over here ; but they never, so far as we ever heard----:an? there were twenty-two or twenty-three mCJ­sive Labm;r critic~ ~itting on those benches who watched every action of the Government hoth publicly and privately, a-.;d ":e never discnvered that they were workmg mto one <tnother's hands and into c.cch other's pockets in this fashion. 1f they had clone so, tlce ;;tory would have been told not by me only, hut by twP.ntv other Labour t;tembers. \Vhen we find this thing growing up h1 re, it is ?ecr,~sar;v, in the interest; of gocd government, tnat tt shonlrl. be exposed. Instead of having two Select Com­mittees, we might combine them, and, if both lYiinisters are satisfied that the finger of scorn cannot be pointed at them, they should willingly grant the afternoon that I ask for, and have the whole thing inquired into, and the evtdence published broadcast. There ar,' many other matters to which I might refer; but there is one which we might hear something about from Ministers. It was pointed out the other day by the leader of the Opposition that the Yalu­able collection of Sf,ecimens which had been sold by Dr. Roth to the New South \Vales Museum autboritie-, was practically priceless, and that it would cost much money to get them back unless the two Governrnents catne to a friendly arrangement whereby we paid the £400, and got back the specimens, and leave Dr. Roth to stick to the £400 that he got. Last year the Secretary for Lands, when I and other hon. members g-ot up-some of us hR' ing been the most staunch supporter,; previously that Dr. Roth had, and who had defended him year after year against the attacks of other members­when we referred to this matter. the hon. gentleman, instead of calling upon Dr. Ruth to make an explanation, gave him caTte blnnche­as tbe Premier has been giving Dr. Maxwell in his reports-to discuss jJ01itics, and to pro.ctinlly insult political opponents of the Gov,'rnment.

:Mr. J. LEAHY: The same as Dr. ~Iaxwell. Mr. LESINA: Not only is Dr. Maxwell per­

mitted to do it, as the hon. member for J\Ioreton proved conclm1vely the other night--

The SECRETARY FOR PcBLIO LAXllS (to Mr. J. Leahy): You seem to be helping him along.

Mr. LESI:NA: Doec, the hon. gentleman deny the truth of the statement that Dr. ~\Iaxwell has cliscus,.ed politics in his annuol reports?

The SECHETARY FOR PUBLIC LANilS : He is playing your game for you. I know he is dancing to your pulling.

Mr . • T. LEAHY: I can fight my own battles. The UHAIRMAN: Order ! Mr. LESINA: The Secretary for Lands in

this matter is only a pas;ing phantast;>. He is­merely the fly on the wheel. He thmks he JS

making a lot of noise, but he is here for a little while and then he will go as better men before him have gone, and he will disappear as if he bad never been, and will leave nothing but Cooranga North and Cooranga South behind him.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! Mr. LESINA: That is my opinion, whether

I am right or whether I :tm wrong. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA~ms: I have

never been warned off a racecourse. Mr. LESTN A.: All the stone~ which the old

capitalistic crowd used to thrm: at me the n~w capitalistic crowd are now throwmg at me, whteh certainly proves that I have done good in both

Supply. [11 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 699

cases.. 'Vh en I sat in opposition I made the last crowd call me names, and now I am making this crowd c"'ll me names.

'I'he CHAIRMAN: Order. The SECRETARY FOR PCBLIC LA"'DS: If you call

me nnmee, I shall call you names. I merely call a little public attention to a racecourse episode.

The CHAIR:YIAN: Order ! I must ask the hon. member for Clermont to refrain from these person:>! remarks, and I ask the Secretar~· for Lands not to take any not.ice of the remarks of the hon. member.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : He is not worth taking notice of.

Mr. LESIKA: The hon. member is taking considerable notice of me, but his personal inter­jections will not affect me in the least. This Minister was in charge of the Aborigines Depart­ment at that time. "\Ve had the evidence given in the Council by Dr. Roth, and we had e,·j. dence in Hansa1·d both from the :Secretary for Lands and his predecessor, l\Ir. Fox ton, and also from other members of this Chamber, that those specimens were the property of the nation. They were gathered by the police in variuus parts of the State, and were handed over to Dr. Roth under the belief that they would be handed over to the museum authorities in Brisbane ar,d dis­played for the instruction and information and amusement of the people of Queensland and their families who attend that institution. "\Ve believed that. And yet, when we a.skforan expla­nation of the sale of these specimens, the Minister for Lands, instead of promising this House that we shall have an inquiry, gets Dr. Roth to send in a written reply, in which he picked out and hhckguarded and made aspersions on the private characters of certain hon. members. "\Vhom did he do this to? Not to a rough and ready politician like me, who can give and take a real good licking, hut the leader of the Opposi· tion, who was animated by a sincere desire that the Aborigines Department should he adminis­tered on right lines. That reply of Dr. Hoth's was allowed to go on the table, to he entered in our ''Votes and Proceedings " as a record for all time. This hon. gentleman, who is such a stickler for convention"'lities and for the rights and privileges of hon. members when they affect himself, permitted this personally insulting paper to be laid on the table of the House so that it may become a record in our ''Vote~ and Pro­ceedingR." That paper was a deliberate insult to hon. members who had the moral courage to get up and criticise the administration of the Aborigines Department. I want to know what the hon. gentleman has done since to ascertain by what right Dr. Roth s"ld thoRe curies and specimen> to the Government of New South 'Va.les, who have them now in their mmeum. Xot one solitary step has he moved. If Mr. :F. M. Bailey, onr Government Bot9,nist, asked all the Crown lands ranger;; throughout Queensland to get a collection of the best tim hers of (.lueensland and had them care­fully polished-suppose these men got them think­ing they were to he presented to the Forestry De­partment of Queensland as an e':hibit to our mag­nificent building-what would be said of ::\Ir. Bailey if he sold all that collection to some other department in New South \Vales? And sup­pose some other member--the member for Cairns or the member for Burke or the member for the Valley or the leader of the Labour party-asked for inquiries to be made and they were replied to by an insulting document like that which Dr. Roth presented, would not these mem­bers stand up and resent it ? Then, why should not I stand up? It is me this time, but it mi.;-ht be any other membel' next time. If my rights are trampled on to-day, other members' rights will he trampled on some other time.

And is it fair that we should receive no reply, and that this Government will not make any effort to ascertain whether these specimens were the property of Dr. R •th or the property of (.Jneensland? This is the second time I have asked this, and, if I do not get an answer, I wilt abk it again when the vote for the Aborigines Department come< on. And I will ask it R.gain before the close of Parliament, after which the Mir,ister for Lftnds will disappear into the mael· strnm of political extinction.

The CHAIRMA::'-J : Order, order ! The SECl<ETARY FOil PUBLIC LANDS : It is quite

possible you will be extinf:uished yourself. Mr. LESINA: That may be so, but the ques­

tion will be brought up ag dn by other hon. members. It will not be allowed to die out because many of these specimens are irre­place tble-actually priceless. The cost of col­lecting them must have amounted to something, and that cost was borne by the State. Having collected them, they would have been a splendid addition to our 1nusenm, and the Governrnent, instead of lifting a hand to get them back, sit there like graven images, and <.ay not a word. The leader of the Opposition appealed, and other members appealed, but their appeals ban• fallen on deaf ears. \Vhat mysterious influence is at work that prevents something being done? Is the Minister such a close frien<l of Dr. Roth that he will not take action? I do not appeal to him specifically, but because he is a colleague of the Home Secretary, who is now in charge of the Ab~rigines Department. The control of that department has now been transferred tu the Home s,cretary, but he has disappeared from the Chamber. I c<nnot appeal to anyone except the leader of the Government-the member for Oxley- who has now practically burdened his shoulders with the whole Administration, and one of the acts of administration has been that, under a permission granted to this man, he sold thesP specimens. At some later date the leader of the Opposition, or some otber hon. mLmher who feels a certain amount of patriotism for his country, will ask if you cannot take some action to recover thete specin1ens and curiosities~ I will leave that matter until we get to the Estimates. Now there is anothPr little matter I would like to draw the Minister's attention to before I clcse my remarks, and that is with respect to his treatment of the Maranoa district. He has treated many other districts in a cavalier fashion, buo the Maranoa comes in for more un­satisfactorr administration at the hands of the ::Jiinister for Lands than any other district in. the State. At the last meeting of the Roma Town Council the matter came up for clis' cussion and the members one after another express~d themselves with indignation against the administration of the department, c'•mpletely ignoring the rich lands of the Maranoa distriet. The 11Iamnoa Advocate of the 26th of August, only "'few days ago, had the following:-

Tl--;e dissatisfaction with the administration of the Lands Department as far as the encoura~cment of settlement in this dl~trict is concerned, which has been growing for some time past, found cxl?re:--iou at_ the meeting- of our munkipal representat1vcs on Fnday evening last. The subject under discussif>ll '"as one brought forward by his \VOrship the mayor relating to the local land c.,mmi,~.iouer's amnml report appearing in the report of his depart1ncnt for the year 1905. Speaking on this matter, Alderman \Yard pointed out that, althrmgh there were frequent reports in the Press relativf' to whnt was being done in respect to land settlement in other district:., thry never saw anything abont the ~VIinister for IJnnc1s mentioning- such a place as the J.IaranoR.

That there is considerable ground tor these state .. ments and rLtson for complaint i,;, '"e regret to say, only too trne.

At the out.::et we are prepared to give the present l\Iitlister for Lands all due credit for what he has done in the promotion of settlement in Queensland, but if

Mr. Lesina.]

700 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl_y.

his attentions extP-nded more frequently beyond the borders of his own electorate the 2\'linister's actions would impre"s tile public a little more with their dis­"interestedness. No doubt there is plenty of scope for settlement iu the Dalby elect8rate,and we are prepared to admit that pr::-tctic.d farmers settling there do so with good prospect of suceess. But there are other districts which have claims-and strong claims at tbat-to a greater meed of attention from :Jlinister :Bell than he has hitherto seen fit to bestow upon them. And one of the foremost of these is the .:.\1aranoa. If incoming settlers are given free raihvay passes and other assistance to enable them to pay visits of inspec­tion to lands in the Dalby electorate, there is no good reason why they should not. be ::~,ffordeclsimilar facilitic..::. to come to this district. Perhaps the 3Iinister js afraid they may prefer the ~:laranmL to his own electorate. Anyhow, a surveyor, who knows the land in the latter district which }lr. Bell is trying to settle, states thHt one acre of available land in the l\Iarjt noa is, ra1111'all and everything considered, equal to three of the por­tion mentioned.

:Be that as it may, the feeling that this district is not getting a fair chane13 from the Minister for Lands is be~ coming general. 'l'he people of the :MarallOa are. we feel sure, quite prepared to Jtllow their district to stand on its merits. It requires no "coddling"; neither, on the other hand, doe'ii H wish its light hidden under a bushel. All we ask is that men coming to Queensland in search of land should be given the same facilities to inspect here as in other di.::;tricts which at present find more favour in the eyes of the 31inister.

That the district can produce the primest of wheat is generally admitted; that the dairying industry car.t also be carried on suc(•essfully has been conclusively proved by a number of farmers now in our midst; that it will "grow" sheep has never been denied. In these three industries alone there lies the prospect of success for the settler in this district, and give residents good ground for expecting a little more attention from the Lands Department.. The Dalby and, perhaps, one or two other districts. may consider that Mr. J. T. Bell has been a success as Minister for J.Jands ; the Maranoa, for more reasons than one, is inclined to think otherwise.

It appears that our 1'epr£'-.entative in Parliament has been unable to turn the Minister's attention in this direction. Therefore, it is to be hoped the people them· selves will make a move and demonstrate their objec~ tion to their district being neglected in the matter of land settlement.

That is the opinion of one of the districts which in the course of a few years will produce enormous quantities of wheat. You see that I am not alone in thinking that the Minister for Lands has been a failure.

The CHAIRMAN : Order, order!

Mr. LESIN A : I do not say this is done with :any deliberate intention to ignore the J\.laranoa

and other districts, but he certainly [11 p. m.] seems to lack a grasp of the progress

and needs of districts outside of the Dalby district. Again, he has shown too great an anxiety about people who come up here from Qther States. He gives them free passes to vi.it districts where ~they may or may not take up land. The other day I went up by train with :fifteen persons of this clas~, two of whom were women. They were going to look at land towards Port Curtis. There were buggies waiting for them; they had meals prepared for them at the hotels; they were driven out and driven back. A number of those people are coming up here regularly for a holiday trip to Queemland, they are so well treated. They go back to their homes and say they have had a splendid trip in Queensland. Next year they will bring their familie,, and the year afterwards their friends; and they send th~ blusbing Minister a nice te 'tirnonial, which he gets Mr. Pulsford to amplify into a pamphlet and circu· lates it to the public at a cost of hundreds of pounds. And yet the Queensland youths, whose fathers have borne the heat and burden of the day-fire, flood, and drought-if they want to get a piece of land the Minister is not about.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: That is .absolutely untrue. There is not a word of truth in your statement.

[Mr. Lesina.

Mr. LESINA: I appeal to the hon. mem· ber for Leic~<hardt if it is not so. Quite recently complaints have been made that Queenslanders cannot get the same encouragement and assist­ance that the people from New South \V ales and Victoria get.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAKDS : That is absolutely untrue.

Mr. LESINA: I have met people who have experienced this treatment. Some time ago, when I was at one of the hotels at Rnckhamp· ton, I met h•lf a dozen fine stalwart young fellows, horn and bred in the 8pringsnre district. They wanted to earn a Jiving fur then1selves out of the soil. They c·Jmplained that they cnnld not get this enconragemenc, and they were off to '\Vestern ~\nstrc:lia. In fact, ne••rly every •hip takes a way sorne of our best young men to vVcstern Australia; and yet we set aside 40,000 or 50,000 acres of the pick of our land for settlers from Great Britain, and there has been only one application received in twelve months. At the same time we are losing thousands of people because we do not offer them proper facilities for settling on the land. 'fhen we have had the same messing about in connec­tion with the Ideraway Estate. \Ve were told that this was to show the way how to solve the unemployed problem. And yet they have planted the only group on a spot where there is no water. This reminds me of the action of the present Secretary for Public Instruction when, some years ago, he had charge of the establishment of certain groups. He put those people on land where they could not possibly make a living and were foredoomed to failure; and, when the inevitable end came, he adduced it as a proof that co-operative settlement was a failure. They are doing the same thing at Ideraway to-day. They are going to damn that scheme by put.ting people on land where success is simply impos­sible. In connection with that group, though a large number of men applied, they are still weed­ing them out, and putting the selected on land where there is no water. Is this thing to go on any longer without protest? The finest land in Queensland should be given to the unemployed, and the Government should assist them with capital. The whole scheme is foredoomed to failure. I had intended to deal with the locking up of certain lands in the \V arrego district, but I shall reserve that until the Lands Esti­mates come al •ng, when I shall have an oppor· tunity of dealing with the matter at greater length. \Vhat I have >aid in respect to these matters, if it has no effect in altering the attitude of individual Ministers iu connection with the administration of their departments, will set the public thinking. I believe that, if hon. mem­bers were to sit down and carefully make out a list of the sins of omission and conrndssion of which this Government have heen guilty since they came into office, it would be of such a character as to make the ordinary taxpayer, at the coming election, cast his vote very carefully indeed. It appears to me that Tom Paine, who had a very poor opinion of the Governments in his day, was pretty right when he thus de'·cribed them-his description to some extent applies, I will not say particulftrly to this Government, but to many modern Governments-" within the memory of men the trade of government has al" .tys been monopolised by the most ignorant of mankind." That there is a good deal of truth in that is shown in many of the modern Governments in thecce Australian States to-day. They talk about the New South \Vales land scandal. That scandal is very had, as hon. members who have followed the case must admit. It is probably one of the worst features of politi­c•! life that New South Wales history has

Suppl,Y. [11 SEPTEMBER.] Suppl,Y. 701

hitherto revealed. But we have our scandals here. They are only small scand<tls at present, but they are growing. The men who in years gone by governed Australia, before Queensland had re•ponsible government, were ;;uch men as \Ventworth, Brand, L>tng, and Lowe. Those men were fearless exponents of puhlic opinion. \Vhere would you find (L more ferocious exposer of a public wrong th"n Dr. Lang? The matters I have referred to are the very kind of things that Dr. Lang used to delight in ferriting out. Do you mean to tell me that Wentworth, or Bmnd, or Lowe, or Dr. Lang, would stoop to actions of the character I have mtntioned to· night? Can yon imagine \Vent worth as the representative of -democracy "faking" butter· boxes? Can you imagine Brand a.- Lang doin[\' such a thing as "faking" butter-boxes, or send­ing weevily flour to the Chinese? You cannot conceive of those men doing such thinga. 'l'hey were really great men-patriotic advocates of extending the rights of the people. They were not cap<tble of "faking" butter-boxes or selling weevily flonr to Chinese; they would not do such kintl of things. But we have a different class of pnliticians nowadays. There are in Australia to-day men who cherish the glorions traditions of the vVentworthe, the Brands, the Langs, and the Lowes, but we have also men who will do such things because it pays. :B'or that reason we have the Cooranga land scandal, and Queensland butter sent away in speci"lly manutactured and "faked" boxes as Victorian butter, and weevily flour sent away for J ones, our commercial ag,.nt, to sell to the Japanese. It is time that democracy took in hand these things. I am inclined to think that the mer­chant element in politics is one of the worst elemen•s you can have in political life. \Ve all know Burke's thundering declamation against the merchant in politics, and his sarcastic definition of the merchant as a man whose soul is so small that it might be inserted inside a walnut-a man whose church and sanctu­ary is his counting~house-a ma'n whose ledger is his Bible, anc! who is interested in nothing which does not return ponnds, shil­lings, and pence. Is that the kind of thing to have in Queensland politics? \Vhen :\Ir. Thom­son, the Dairy Expert, came here from South Australia, the Government sent him right throughout Qneensland to advocate co-operation in dairying. Has Mt·. Thomson advoct1ted co-operation eince the present Minister for Agri­culture came into power? No; we hear nothing abont co-operation now, bec~use it wonld be opposed to the interest of the middlemen, be­cause the Silverwood Dairy Company would have to compete against that co-operation, ancl co~operative production is very near socialisn1, and that the :Minister for Agriculture would scotch if he could. Mr. Thomson is now allowed to go for a twelve months' holiday, though his services are required in Queensland to teach the butter manufacturers. 1 know a number of farmers who wanted to secure the Rerviccc, of Mr. Thomson, in order that he might give them instruction in regwd to butter factories. but they were told by the Minister that his services con id not be spared as he was too busily occupied. \Vhere is he occupied now? After the re·.eipt of that mess ge I know that a c-,rtain rm.;; connected with the butter business invited him down for a cnnple of days' shooting on his estate. Mr, 'rhomson had time for a couple of days' shooting, but he had not time for in· structing the farmers who wanted inetruction in co-operative production. The Minister has put every obstacle possible in the way of co-opera­tive production. \Vhat we want on the Downs, and in other dairying districts, is co-operative dairies, co-operative factories, owned by the

farmers who supply the cream, so that they may get the profits of their industry and enterprise, instead of those profits going to the middlemen, who stand between the producer and the con­enmer, and take toll of both. Then, again, in the Gympie district, the business of the Wirle Bay Co-operative Company was bought by the hon. gentlem&n's factory. In reply to a question I asked, the Minister stated that the amount owing hy the \Vide Bay Company to the meat and dairy fund would be paid out of the money paid for the machhery and plant, This is a very nice little thin~. We have no report upon that machinery. \Ve want to know what it is like, whethAr it is any good; but these are matters which I suppose we shall be better able to discuss when we get to the Estimates of the Agriculture Department, and I hope that we shall get. some satisfaction on the subject-that the Minister will be pliable enough, civil enough, and cour­teous enough to give information in response to our inquiries. Another thing the Minister might interest himself in, as he wili probably have to engineer the Chief Secretary's Estimates through committee, is the promise that was made last year that Sir Horace Tozer would be recalled. At the recent Labour Convention it was unani­mously decided to recommend that Sir Horace Tozer should be recalled. Last year, those of us who wanted to censure Sir Horace for his criticism of the attitnde of the Labour party in the Commonwealth Parliament, were practically stopped by the then Premier, Mr. Morgan, stating that it was intended to recall Sir Horace Tozer and make arrangements for the represen­tation of Queensland in London hy a commerciaL man. \V hat has been done in that direction? I want to know whether we can look forward to an arrangement which willle01d to Sir Horace Tozer relinquishing the position of Agent-General. If so, we qhould be glad to know who they have in view. It is rumoured that the Secretary for Agricultnre will take the Premiership, and that arrangements are in progress for the transpor~a­tiou of the Prarnier, Mr, Kidston, to London as Agent-General. As theBe matteu are being talked about it is as well that between this time and the cPnsideration of the Estimates :l\Iinisters should have an opportunity of gathering infor­mation. I regret that I have had to keep members hereafter 11 o'clock, but the prolonged, inces"ant, and personal interjections of the Home Secre­tary, the Secretary fnr Rail ways, and the Secre­tary for Lands have to some extent delayed me. I regret very much that these gentlemen shonld have taken my criticism so much to heart, have manifested snch fiercene"' of temper, and shown so publicly that my criticisms have reached some tender spots in their pachydermatous constitu­tions. There are manvother matters which I shaH have to hold over, but this much I nmy say: that the fa~ts I have ste,ted I am prepared to place before a Select Committee in the interests of the export of pure produce, anrl in the interests of pure administration of the Lands Department, and I believe if I do that I shall place the mat­ters I bave referred to in such a light as will not redound to the credit of the adwinistration of those two departments. I hope ahw that some .. thing will be done in the matter of Dr. Roth to satisfy criticism both inside and outside the Home. I ho:'e that at the end of the present financid year thing' will he as flonriHhingas last financial year, and that some sel'iuus steps will be taken to inerease the vote on the Estimate-s for the treatment of the unemployed question.

The House resumed. The CHAIR:HAN reported progre"s, and the Committee obtained leave to sit again to-n1orrow.

The House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past 11 o'clock.

Mr.Lesina.]